# Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2



## ejaz007

*US Senate urged to help upgrade Pakistans F-16s*
By Our Correspondent

WASHINGTON, Oct 14: The US administration on Tuesday held a special briefing to persuade Senate to help finance mid-life upgrading of Pakistans ageing fleet of F-16 aircraft.

US Assistant Secretary of State Richard Boucher, who looks after South Asian affairs at the State Department, said that upgrading the F-16s would increase Pakistans effectiveness in the war against terror.

Pakistan has a total of 34 F-16s purchased mostly in the 1980s.

The US government has already accepted Pakistans request to upgrade the aircraft, equipping them with modern technology and weapon systems to make them compatible with newer versions of the F-16s. The mid-life upgrading will cost a total of $891 million. Pakistan agreed to pay $417 million and asked the United States to provide $474 million.

In July this year, the US State Department notified the committee that it had accepted Pakistans request to make available $226 million from the foreign military finance programme for upgrading the F-16s.

Initially, Pakistan had agreed to bear most of the cost but under the new arrangement the United States will provide almost half of the money needed. The State Department said the move was aimed at helping a strong ally faced with a difficult financial situation.

Initially, Pakistan had also planned to buy 36 aircraft at a cost of $5.1 billion but after the 2005 earthquake, it reduced its order to 18 aircraft.

The United States is already providing $224 million but needs Congresss permission for the remaining $250 million.

Pakistan received additional 14 F-16 A and B models under an arrangement that allowed US allies to receive excessive defence articles. The US has designated Pakistan a major non-Nato ally, a category that allows the allied nation to receive excessive defence equipment.

The White House has rejected criticism that Pakistan could only use the F-16s against its nuclear neighbour India and not against the terrorists.

The F-16s that they have are used in counter-terrorism operations. We made them available to the Pakistanis and they need to be maintained, White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said.

Administration officials have told the Senate that upgrading Pakistans ageing fleet of F-16 aircraft will dramatically reduce collateral damage and civilian casualties in Fata.

US Senate urged to help upgrade Pakistans F-16s -DAWN - Top Stories; October 15, 2008

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## Myth_buster_1

Turkey to help with F-16 overhauls

Naveed Miraj

ISLAMABAD: Turkey has agreed to provide expertise to Pakistan for overhauling F-16 fighter jets and an agreement in this regard has been signed in Ankara during Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gillani's visit.

Turkey that has got license to produce these fighter aircraft has agreed to assist Pakistan in building a setup to overhaul these aircraft purchased from the United States at Kamra Aeronautical Complex. This facility would go a long way in improving the country's air defence capability and Pakistan would come in a position to overhaul its F-16 fleet like *Miraj*  and F-7. Moreover, it will be able to bring in action its obsolete F-16 aircraft that could not be overhauled due to a lack of this facility in Pakistan. Earlier Pakistan could not afford to send the fighter jets to the United States for overhauls at a very high cost.

Due to lack of maintenance and overhauls of these costly and most modern fighters Pakistan had ground a number of its aircraft. Pakistan Air Force (PAF) received eighteen overhauled and refurbished F-16 from USA by this year under the EAD programme.

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## Nishan_101

salam, do u beleive that f-16 blk-52's should be cancelled by again taking eartquake as an excuse as well as our very good growin economy which is going 2 be collapsed and put the money if left in EDA in getin blk-15's whic will be avialable by 2011 n also from third parties & bargain chip ;
Like e.g:Egypt as blk-15's with MLU-3 as well as blk-30 & 40's we should get itby letin them 2 buy some ex-us blk -30's &40's which they had offered 2 us so they will 2 ave just 2 type of blk(30's&40's) and PAF will have only one type F-16 BLK-15

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## TOPGUN

We should try to get blk 52's going back to the stone age is not gona help us at all we are trying to come out of that era.

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## z9-ec

Lockheed to supply F-16, C-130, P 3 Orion to Pakistan

KARACHI, Nov 26 (APP) - Lockheed Martin, USA will supply upgraded F-16 jets, C-130 transport planes and P 3 Orion surveillance aircraft to Pakistan armed forces. This was stated by President Lockheed Martin, Middle East and Africa, Gen (rtd) James Jamerson in an interview here Wednesday.

To a question, he said that he had meetings with top officials of Ministry of Defence, Chief of Naval Staff and Air Chief of Pakistan Air Force.

&#8220;I have discussed with the Naval Chief the Orion aircraft up-gradation project,&#8221; he said mentioning that Orion aircraft were being upgraded for Pakistan Navy in the United States and they will soon come to Pakistan.

*Regarding the supply of F-16 jets, he said that these fighters were upgraded and overhauled in Pakistan as well as in USA. 

&#8220;We are also supplying equipment and parts to Pakistan for F-16s overhauled in Pakistan. Similarly, we are also upgrading F-16s in USA for supply to Pakistan,&#8221; said the Lockheed Martin President.
*
James said that his company was also upgrading a number of C-130 for Pakistan Air Force in USA.

*He did not mention the exact number of these jets and aircraft saying the number was significant.*

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## Munir

It is indeed a new fact that F16's are upgraded in Pak (with help from Turkey). But would someone still believe we would transit these planes over a period of 5 years? 

Those planes if the US are test models and if parts fit then same is done in Pakistan. They are upgrade a lot faster in Pak then in USA.

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## Kharian_Beast

I would suggest to PAF and GoP to not procure F-16 Blk 52 and stick with FC-20 and take a look at J-11B. Our Thunder will progress slowly and by 2013 or so it will have AESA and fitted with new engines possibly some stealth characteristics, conformal fuel tanks and up to 11 hard points. 

After the upgrade, let's let F-16 purchase become a thing of the past. We can even work on upgrading F-16's in our inventory completely _in house_ so to speak. The cost is too much for the block 52 deal, the planes are too few, the delivery is too long and the strings are still attached while the spare parts are going to be a problem I think.

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## TOPGUN

Kharian_Beast said:


> I would suggest to PAF and GoP to not procure F-16 Blk 52 and stick with FC-20 and take a look at J-11B. Our Thunder will progress slowly and by 2013 or so it will have AESA and fitted with new engines possibly some stealth characteristics, conformal fuel tanks and up to 11 hard points.
> 
> After the upgrade, let's let F-16 purchase become a thing of the past. We can even work on upgrading F-16's in our inventory completely _in house_ so to speak. The cost is too much for the block 52 deal, the planes are too few, the delivery is too long and the strings are still attached while the spare parts are going to be a problem I think.



Actually Kharian_beast i agree with u to some degree my thought is to get the upgrades on the old ones & get the 18 new block 52 and then move on with the renaming thought on j-10's and perhaps look in to j-11's again no answer or conform news is on the interest from our side on j-11 so lets see wat the future holds iam sure the PAF high staff knows wat they are doing !! futhermore, mashallah jf-17 is on track so no worry there .

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## Arsalan

> I would suggest to PAF and GoP to not procure F-16 Blk 52 and stick with FC-20 and take a look at J-11B. Our Thunder will progress slowly and by 2013 or so it will have AESA and fitted with new engines possibly some stealth characteristics, conformal fuel tanks and up to 11 hard points.
> 
> After the upgrade, let's let F-16 purchase become a thing of the past. We can even work on upgrading F-16's in our inventory completely in house so to speak. The cost is too much for the block 52 deal, the planes are too few, the delivery is too long and the strings are still attached while the spare parts are going to be a problem I think



actually i totally agree with you, its not only about high cost but also the reliability of the deal as to be sure that we do get these planes in the right time which does not seem to be happening with most of Pak-US deals!

i think the deal of upgrading the current fleet and procuring new plane have already suffered two delays and there is no point in totally relying on this deal!
if we get them in time its good,,, but there comes the big IF so we better weight our options like the J10 or even J11 or there newer version that can be somewhat on par with the Su30z

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## Arsalan

what are the details of the upgradation plans!!

i mean we are going for MLUz from Us and also some plans are going on with the Turkish firm so what is the difference between these two!

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## Arsalan

J-11J-11
A 4.5-generation J-11B prototype flying
Role	Multirole Air Superiority Fighter
Manufacturer	Shenyang Aircraft Corporation
Designed by	Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (J-11B is Chinese-designed)
First flight	1998
Introduced	1998
Status	Active service
Primary user	People's Liberation Army Air Force
Produced	1998-Present
Number built	&#8776;100
Developed from	Sukhoi Su-27SK


J-11 b/c is a marked improvement done by the chinese


Comparable aircraft

* F-15 Eagle
* Sukhoi Su-30MKI
* Eurofighter Typhoon

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## echo 1

The only thing is that Russia would intervine. This is their aircraft (Su-27) and they have already threated to sue if China did sell these aircrafts to Pakistan. That is my only consurn. Also It has a huge radar signature. The Indian Su-30MKIs were deticted very quickly because they are so big what would we do about that? Also if we did get just the J-10 we need to do a lot of upgrades of our own to meet our needs dont you guys think.

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## Arsalan

> The only thing is that Russia would intervine. This is their aircraft (Su-27) and they have already threated to sue if China did sell these aircrafts to Pakistan. That is my only consurn. Also It has a huge radar signature. The Indian Su-30MKIs were deticted very quickly because they are so big what would we do about that? Also if we did get just the J-10 we need to do a lot of upgrades of our own to meet our needs dont you guys think.



yes but the relation between pakistan and russia are getting better, russia cannot afford to lose chines market and we together with the chines offer double the scope of trade that india offers! i had these figures with me but cannot find them at the moment but i will post them as i find them again, but the thing was that totall potential russian exports to china and pakistan was more than two times the potential of India. so if china support us in this venture it wonmt be difficult.

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## Arsalan

the J-11B is an improved version of J11 or the SU27!
it have better stealth features making it 4.5 generation plane better than the 4 generation su27!!



> This is the 4.5-generation multirole version which uses more Chinese components, including radar, engine, and missiles. China is interested in reducing its reliance on foreign technology for both cost reasons and a desire to improve its domestic research and design. It is reported that one regiment of J-11Bs are currently in service, but this seems to contradict with the latest information provided by the Chinese government: In May, 2007, the existence of J-11B was finally acknowledged by the Chinese government for the first time when the state-run Chinese TV stations first aired the report on J-11B in PLAAF service, which were subsequently publicized in various domestic Chinese media such as state-run websites and newspapers (like Xin Wen Hua Bao, New Culture Newspaper). However, the official Chinese report claims that there are only two squadrons of J-11Bs in service, instead of a regiment, which is consisted of three squadrons (as of end of 2007). According to the Chinese report, which is agreed by some western sources such as Jane's Information Group, the J-11B is superior to Su-27SK in the following areas:
> 
> The wide adoption of composite material (mainly carbon fiber) for the surfaces, reducing the weight of the aircraft for more than 700 kg, while the life of the composite part is increased over 10,000 hours in comparison to the original part built from steel.
> Redesigned air inlets of engine intakes to reduce the radar cross section, this coupled with the adoption of composite material, and application of radar absorbent material has reduced the radar cross section (RCS) of 15 square meters of Su-27SK to just >3 square meters of F-16 A/B.
> Full air-to-surface / sea capability is added and J-11B is able to launch various precision guided air-to-surface and air-to-sea munitions.
> Certified to be equipped with WS-10 (will be upgraded to WS-10A in the future) turbofan engine, which is claimed to be cheaper to operate than AL-31F.
> Incorporation of on-board oxygen generating system (OBOGS): With the exception of Su-35 and Su-37, J-11B is the first of the Flanker family to incoporate such technology. Due to the adoptation of western style design features such as fully digitized computerized controls and solid state micro-electronics, Chinese claimed that the domestic OBOGS is superior than the analog system Russia offered to China.
> Improved radar. The new radar is able to track 6-8 targets at the same time, and engage 4 of the 6-8 tracked simultaneously. When used against large surface target such as a destroyer, the maximum range of the radar was in excess of 350 km. The range against aerial targets was not disclosed, but it would be definitely much shorter, as in all radars. The Chinese official report claims that the radar is better than the 147x/KLJ-X radar family, but stop short of identifying the exact type. Contrary to many erroneous comments by many domestic Chinese sources, which mistakenly claimed that the radar had adopted a passive phased array antenna, the official claims of many Chinese governmental sources such as technical journals and publications have revealed that the radar still adopted a slotted plannar array antenna.
> Fully digitized solid-state avionics has replaced the analogue one in Su-27SK. In the mid-2007, the Chinese governmental television station CCTV-7 released news clips of Chinese pilots in the cockpits of J-11B, with the LCD of glass cockpit of J-11B clearly visible, despite that the official report itself only claimed replacing the original avionics with domestic Chinese fully digitized solid-state avionics, and nothing of EFIS or glass cockpit was mentioned. In comparison to the earlier EFIS on J-11A, the most obvious difference is that LCD MFDs on J-11B are aligned in a straight line, instead of the middle one being slightly lower. The arrangement, appearance and layout of MFDs and EFIS of J-11B are similar to the general design concept of the west.
> Missile Approach Warning Systen
> Though it has long been rumored that J-11B is aerial-refueling capable, it was impossible to determine if any aerial refueling probes have been added to the aircraft from the released official reports by the Chinese government. Professor Wang also revealed in the same interview that the J-11B entering series production would be equipped with domestic engines.

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## RS4

Something to bear in mind is that the PAF have a very strong history and experiance with F16s, the F16 is combat proven where as the JF17 and J10 are not. Also the Blk 52 are exspensive but would give the Paf a High tech muti role capability which is very much what the PAF is looking for.

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## Arsalan

> Something to bear in mind is that the PAF have a very strong history and experiance with F16s, the F16 is combat proven where as the JF17 and J10 are not. Also the Blk 52 are exspensive but would give the Paf a High tech muti role capability which is very much what the PAF is looking for.



yes its truw that F-16 will be a better option for pakistan but only if we get them,

as far as i am concerned time do matters, we ordered block 15 when they were new and modre jets, now the era have move to block 60 and we are receiving those block 15, now if get them upgraded at the time when block 90z in the market and &#37;th generation planes flying all over it will be quite ridiculus, what do you say?


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## Arsalan

as i pointed that russians are providing us the engines, if we ask for the su and perhaps some air defence missiles it will increase our share in russian exports and thus we may have a healthy chance!!

one problem that bothers me with the J11 is that it is the Su27, even improved but it may not be a match for the more advance su30 being deployed in the neighbourhood!!


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## Kharian_Beast

arsalanaslam123 said:


> as i pointed that russians are providing us the engines, if we ask for the su and perhaps some air defence missiles it will increase our share in russian exports and thus we may have a healthy chance!!
> 
> one problem that bothers me with the J11 is that it is the Su27, even improved but it may not be a match for the more advance su30 being deployed in the neighbourhood!!



Personally I think we can play Russia without falling victim to their exports like India has militarily. Secondly, the Chinese already employ upgraded SU30 and themselves say that their J11B is just as capable. 

J11B is compared with SU27SK when in fact it's better, in the league of SU30MK.

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## Arsalan

> J11B is compared with SU27SK when in fact it's better, in the league of SU30MK.



sorry i didnt got your point, the J11b is upgrade of the Su27 programme, are you saying that it is better than the Su30z, i far as i know the Su 30z are being ranked among the best in the world, the F22 andd F35 are exception but which else of the plane match the su30z, their radar have a detection range of 350 km amd a ttracking range of 200 km, can simultaneously engage 6 targets, have canard wings and thrust vectoring to make it a best agile plane!!

can you please tell me what was your point in


> J11B is compared with SU27SK when in fact it's better, in the league of SU30MK.



thanks in advance!


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## Arsalan

sir, anyone please, can't we have F16 form any other country? i know what i m saying may sound a bit stupid but still with the new technology as the f35 in market i guess we can find someone willing to sale the f16!! may be Spain!
though what i am talking about seem to be very strange and a bit stupid but what is youe say on the actual point* can't we have F16 form any other country?*


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## Beskar

In my opinion, we should get the the New Block 52's and put an end to this F-16 business. Turkey signed a deal for 116 F-35's. I mean common, people are moving FORWARD! For starters, we should focus on procuring J-10's and J11's. It's time the airforce took a different stance on their buying options. Lots of good aircrafts out there. The world doesn't end at F-16.

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## maximus

bezerk86 said:


> In my opinion, we should get the the New Block 52's and put an end to this F-16 business. Turkey signed a deal for 116 F-35's. I mean common, people are moving FORWARD! For starters, we should focus on procuring J-10's and J11's. It's time the airforce took a different stance on their buying options. Lots of good aircrafts out there. The world doesn't end at F-16.



That's a good point. Also, there are a lot of unacceptable strings attached to the deal. PAF has already cut the number of F-16s it's going purchase from the US. The brand new airframes are primarily meant as a learning platform. A lot of the tech and feel will be implemented in the newer JF-17 batches. We cannot deny that F-16 Block 52 are battle proven machines with a superior range. These machines can without a doubt take on the best that the IAF has to the offer. The weaponry package is another bonus. Chinese fighters are the future though. PAFs goal is to get a large proportion of the JF-17 fleet on par with F-16 Block 52. Who can blame them...


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## Kharian_Beast

arsalanaslam123 said:


> sorry i didnt got your point, the J11b is upgrade of the Su27 programme, are you saying that it is better than the Su30z, i far as i know the Su 30z are being ranked among the best in the world, the F22 andd F35 are exception but which else of the plane match the su30z, their radar have a detection range of 350 km amd a ttracking range of 200 km, can simultaneously engage 6 targets, have canard wings and thrust vectoring to make it a best agile plane!!
> 
> can you please tell me what was your point in
> 
> thanks in advance!



The Chinese have SU30MK2 in their inventory but did not buy a lot of them because they are the basis for their domestic built J11 variants. The base J11 they have is based on the SU27SK. For the J11B, it is still the SU27 airframe but with redesigned cockpit and other advancements such as avionics and active radar guided SMRAAM and MRAAM missiles borrowed from the SU30MK's. J11B can also engage up to 6 targets and has a similar engine to the Russian AL31F except it is made in China. The only thing that is missing is TVC I believe, which may be added to J11B "block 2". 
Anyone with better information please do not hesitate to clarify for us, shukria.

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## Arsalan

> In my opinion, we should get the the New Block 52's and put an end to this F-16 business. Turkey signed a deal for 116 F-35's.



sorry but agian can't we get F-16 from them, turkey. they can also be upgraded by them!!???



> I mean common, people are moving FORWARD! For starters, we should focus on procuring J-10's and J11's. It's time the airforce took a different stance on their buying options. Lots of good aircrafts out there. The world doesn't end at F-16



very true. the world does not endz but still it is a good or a very good option, considering the experience we have with the system and its related facility!
the only problem is the US delay,, *so if we can get them from turkey wont it be better that to try J11z which will be competiong against the superior Su30z!!*


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## Arsalan

> The Chinese have SU30MK2 in their inventory but did not buy a lot of them because they are the basis for their domestic built J11 variants. The base J11 they have is based on the SU27SK. For the J11B, it is still the SU27 airframe but with redesigned cockpit and other advancements such as avionics and active radar guided SMRAAM and MRAAM missiles borrowed from the SU30MK's. J11B can also engage up to 6 targets and has a similar engine to the Russian AL31F except it is made in China. The only thing that is missing is TVC I believe, which may be added to J11B "block 2".
> Anyone with better information please do not hesitate to clarify for us, shukria.



*ok thankyou Kharian_Beast what about the manuveribility??
thrust vectoring technology?? is it present??*


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## Kharian_Beast

arsalanaslam123 said:


> *ok thankyou Kharian_Beast what about the manuveribility??
> thrust vectoring technology?? is it present??*



TVC technology is currently not present. 

J11 advantages over SU30 include : 

better thrust/weight ratio, higher service ceiling, longer operational range, superior rate of climb.


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## TOPGUN

As i have said before finish of the mlu's try to get the 18 new block 52's hence if we can still get them without any issues or prob's work on getting our j-10's asap and jf-17's and i think we should try to get j-11b's i think this should be good for us!!


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## Hayreddin

i think we should forget about F16s ,we are asking for the same thing for last 10 years ,BUT they didnt give us and will not give us ,its sure .make no hope ,,,,.............


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## Pk_Thunder

How come you are so sure mate?...the new f16's will roll out in 2010 according to the agreement,Also our ACM will be leaving in jan2009 for the same purpose to the US..Dont worry friends,we will get them


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## Imran Khan

ahmed said:


> i think we should forget about F16s ,we are asking for the same thing for last 10 years ,BUT they didnt give us and will not give us ,its sure .make no hope ,,,,.............



boss if you see main page of this web we get already f-16 from US used and now the time is for new because our namber is after 3 orders in Lockheed martin so we have to wait.


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## TOPGUN

Well said Thunder777 i also have aslight feeling that we get them inshallah !! lets see.


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## Pk_Thunder

TOPGUN said:


> Well said Thunder777 i also have aslight feeling that we get them inshallah !! lets see.



Yup bro...One should remain Optimistic


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## maximus

THUNDER777 said:


> How come you are so sure mate?...the new f16's will roll out in 2010 according to the agreement,Also our ACM will be leaving in jan2009 for the same purpose to the US..Dont worry friends,we will get them



Frankly, I wouldn't bet on the F-16 deal. The political situation is volatile. 2010 is still a long way off and anything can happen. It's a risky deal, but PAF already knew that. We can only hope for the best, but in the meantime focus on better alternatives. The F-16s aren't our mainstay. Remain optimistic and realistic.

On a different note, I wouldn't be all too worrisome if the F-16 deal fell apart for some reason. We have much better alternatives at our disposal. That's in fact the only reason why the US is willing to offer the F-16s.


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## Mubashar_ali

I want to know, how many F-16 are in the inventory of Pakistan Air-force. We know that Pakistan is buying more F-16. So what will they arrive and in how many numbers?


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## Owais

Mubashar_ali said:


> I want to know, how many F-16 are in the inventory of Pakistan Air-force. We know that Pakistan is buying more F-16. So what will they arrive and in how many numbers?



right now we have total of 46 F-16A/B OCU Jets. 4 of them are in US For MLU and remaining will be upgraded by TAI

see the link

Turkish Aerospace Industries to upgrade 42 F-16 jets : Pakistan Defence


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## superbikez

i want to know how many F16s New or old or maybe new purchase (in 2009 Ends) or in (2010) ? total no. of F16s any new deal b/w ?


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## TOPGUN

I wanted to ask you guys i always wonderd why arent our f-16's canopys tinted like other AF's have them? i think we have talked about this before but perhaps i have forgotten !!


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## notorious_eagle

superbikez said:


> i want to know how many F16s New or old or maybe new purchase (in 2009 Ends) or in (2010) ? total no. of F16s any new deal b/w ?



After all the upgrades are completed and Block 52 are delivered, Pakistan will have a total of 78 F16's. 60 F16's(A&B) will go through Mid Life Upgrade; this will bring them upto Block 40 standards, the rest 18 F16's will be Block 52 standards.


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## RS4

arsalanaslam123 said:


> yes its truw that F-16 will be a better option for pakistan but only if we get them,
> 
> as far as i am concerned time do matters, we ordered block 15 when they were new and modre jets, now the era have move to block 60 and we are receiving those block 15, now if get them upgraded at the time when block 90z in the market and %th generation planes flying all over it will be quite ridiculus, what do you say?



I agree with you, i would like to think that in the short term future these blk 52 will be upgraded to blk 60, as you rightly pointed out in depends on of we do indeed get them, and also what India does next in terms of is purchase of aircraft whether it be 16 OR F18 etc.


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## Muradk

TOPGUN said:


> I wanted to ask you guys i always wonderd why arent our f-16's canopys tinted like other AF's have them? i think we have talked about this before but perhaps i have forgotten !!



There are 3 kinds available one is what we are using plane, other is golden and the tinted. the golden and tinted are very expensive , its only job is to keep the sun light away. We have 2 planes in are inventory with golden canopy and 4 with tinted canopy's.

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## Aneeq Rashid

Why paksitan is still is on one engine fighters. I checked cost of JAS 39 Gripen, Rafale,Typhoon,j10,f-16 and F-15 and i found that f-15 is cheaper than J-10 why?


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## Zob

i agree with u that purchasing F16 BLK50/52 will be waste of money. India is being offered F-16's with tecnology transfer. I believe this money should be spent on R&D for the JF-17's like equipping it with an AESA radar or buying a new squadron of J-10's with TVC. besides they delivered us the F-16A/B's that are more or less 3rd generation now.So i guess buying F-16's is going to be useless if India get it as well.


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## mean_bird

I am a new member here so first of all hi everyone!



arsalanaslam123 said:


> sorry but agian can't we get F-16 from them, turkey. they can also be upgraded by them!!???
> very true. the world does not endz but still it is a good or a very good option, considering the experience we have with the system and its related facility!
> the only problem is the US delay,, *so if we can get them from turkey wont it be better that to try J11z which will be competiong against the superior Su30z!!*



Any sale of any weapon by another country first requires clearance/permission by the manufacturing country. To acquire anything from turkey of US origin, we need to have US approval. Same goes with J11 as it requires approval of russia which, as most of us know, is next to impossible considering we had difficulty in acquiring just the engines of our JF-17. 

frankly, apart from the F-16 blk 52, our other options are J-10 and maybe rafale which is quite expensive and at best the grippen. I don't think we have any other option and considering we have some facilities, training , expertise of F-16 i think its not a bad deal. All we need is a back up plan in case things go wrong which we have. 

By the time we need further planes, I think more chinese options should be available to us. As long as we have all our F-16s, the J-10s (advance i assume to fit our needs) and the JF-17s, we should be OK considering we also have our nuclear deterrence and missiles. I agree they are no match of what India has, but we can't really afford all those.



notorious_eagle said:


> After all the upgrades are completed and Block 52 are delivered, Pakistan will have a total of 78 F16's. 60 F16's(A&B) will go through Mid Life Upgrade; this will bring them upto Block 40 standards, the rest 18 F16's will be Block 52 standards.



Can you please explain whats in the main difference (as in a typical war scenario we could face) between the upgraded blk 40s and the blk 52s? I ain't exactly an aviation expert so anything in layman's term would be highly appreciated especially if in view of the role the planes will play in our force.

thanks


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## Keysersoze

Actually I believe the MLU's would bring them to a similar standard as the BlK 50's 

F-16 MLU
In 1989 a two-year study began regarding possible mid-life upgrades for the USAF&#8217;s and European Partner Air Forces&#8217; (EPAF&#8217;s) F-16A/B&#8217;s. The resulting F-16 Mid-Life Update (MLU) package was designed to upgrade the cockpit and avionics to the equivalent of that on the F-16C/D Block 50; add the ability to employ radar-guided air-to-air missiles; and to generally enhance the operational performance and improve the reliability, supportability and maintainability of the aircraft. Development began in May 1991 and continued until 1997; however, the USAF withdrew from the MLU program in 1992, although it did procure the modular mission computer for its Block 50/52 aircraft.[131][132]

The first of five prototype conversions flew on 28 April 1995, and installation of production kits began in January 1997. Original plans called for the production of 553 kits (110 for Belgium, 63 for Denmark, 172 for the Netherlands, 57 for Norway, and 130 for the USAF), however, final orders amounted to only 325 kits (72 for Belgium, 61 for Denmark, 136 for the Netherlands, and 56 for Norway). The EPAFs redesignated the F-16A/B aircraft receiving the MLU as F-16AM/BM, respectively. Portugal later joined the program and the first of 20 aircraft was redelivered on 26 June 2003. In recent years, Chile, Jordan, and Pakistan have purchased surplus Dutch and Belgian F-16AM/BM for their air forces.[132]

Development of new software and hardware modifications continues under the MLU program. The M3 software tape was installed in parallel with the Falcon STAR structural upgrade to bring the F-16AM/BM up to the standards of the USAF&#8217;s Common Configuration Implementation Program (CCIP). A total of 296 M3 kits (72 for Belgium, 59 for Denmark, 57 for Norway, and 108 for the Netherlands) were ordered for delivery from 2002&#8211;2007; installation is anticipated to be completed in 2010. An M4 tape has also been developed that adds the ability to use additional weapons and the Pantera targeting pod; Norway began operating flying combat operations in Afghanistan with these upgraded aircraft in 2008. An M5 tape is in development that will enable employment of a wider array of the latest smart weapons, and the first aircraft upgraded with it are due to be delivered in 2009

Essentially they would be of a similar capability (although I believe that the Older Block aircraft are more agile) they would all have the upgraded radar and electronics and have the AIM-120 missile as well.

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## Keysersoze

Oh and the current pakistani F-16's are of the OCU standard which means they are all capable of using the AIm-120 

from F-16.net

The Pakistan Air Force currently has the Block 15 F-16A/B model in operation, which has an upgraded APG-66 radar that brings it close to the MLU (Mid-life Update) radar technology. The main advantage is the ability to use the AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles if they were ever to be released to the PAF. Furthermore, the radar is capable of sorting out tight formations of aircraft and has a 15&#37;-20% range increase over previous models. All the earlier F-16s were brought up to OCU standards and have received the Falcon UP structural modification package.


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## blain2

mean_bird said:


> Can you please explain whats in the main difference (as in a typical war scenario we could face) between the upgraded blk 40s and the blk 52s? I ain't exactly an aviation expert so anything in layman's term would be highly appreciated especially if in view of the role the planes will play in our force.
> 
> thanks



Blk40s are no longer being produced. PAF F-16s would all be upgraded to blk 52 avionics and armament capability. This would allow us standardization on AI radar, targeting pods, AAMs and smart munitions. The only difference would be that blk52s would be JDAM and Harpoon AShM capable while the older A/Bs would not be (they would rely on LGBs albeit with much greater effectiveness thanks to Sniper pod allowing day/night/adverse weather delivery of the LG ordnance).

Airframe wise the two versions in use would be markedly different. Blk-52s would house more ECM gear and allow for much greater endurance than the blk-15s.

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## Zob

i wonder why pakistan cannot try and get licenced MLU's done in Pakistan. I mean this will help us in two things.firstly cost cutting secondly we wil get to know the technological know how which might benefit us in our JF-17's R&D. and i also want to know what F-16's is india being offered because if the do purchase them will there technology be upto block 60 or close to block 50.


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## Myth_buster_1

blain2 said:


> Blk40s are no longer being produced. PAF F-16s would all be upgraded to blk 52 avionics and armament capability. This would allow us standardization on AI radar, targeting pods, AAMs and smart munitions. The only difference would be that blk52s would be JDAM and Harpoon AShM capable while the older A/Bs would not be (they would rely on LGBs albeit with much greater effectiveness thanks to Sniper pod allowing day/night/adverse weather delivery of the LG ordnance).
> 
> Airframe wise the two versions in use would be markedly different. Blk-52s would house more ECM gear and allow for much greater endurance than the blk-15s.


 
blain with all due respect, i thought you knew better.
i dont know why people still have this presumption of MLU M3 being so much inferior to block52+. i can provide you a ebook link on F-16 MLU "M2" basic pilot training manual with JDAM AMRAAM coverage. 
also in 1980s F-16 "block30" conducted Harpoon tests so yes, our MLU fleet can do anything that new Block52 will do. the only advantage i see of new block is that it has new air frame, more operational time and minor technical advantage.

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## ajpirzada

PC said:


> blain with all due respect, i thought you knew better.
> i dont know why people still have this presumption of MLU M3 being so much inferior to block52+. i can provide you a ebook link on F-16 MLU "M2" basic pilot training manual with JDAM AMRAAM coverage.
> also in 1980s F-16 "block30" conducted Harpoon tests so yes, our MLU fleet can do anything that new Block52 will do. the only advantage i see of new block is that it has new air frame, more operational time and minor technical advantage.



so this mean our F-16 MLU are almost as gud as F-16 block52+?


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## Super Falcon

is that F 16 block 52 would be the same in tha shape which israeli fighter jets has and uae fighter jets there is slight difference


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## blain2

PC said:


> blain with all due respect, i thought you knew better.
> i dont know why people still have this presumption of MLU M3 being so much inferior to block52+. i can provide you a ebook link on F-16 MLU "M2" basic pilot training manual with JDAM AMRAAM coverage.
> also in 1980s F-16 "block30" conducted Harpoon tests so yes, our MLU fleet can do anything that new Block52 will do. the only advantage i see of new block is that it has new air frame, more operational time and minor technical advantage.



I am not claiming that its an impossibility to have support for JDAM and Harpoon on MLU'd blk15s, however none of the reported upgrades in the MLU program cater to JDAM and Harpoon delivery. By the way, PAF F-16s are not getting M3 tape. We are getting M4/5 which includes support for JSOW as well. Harpoon is capable of being integrated with Block 20, 30/32, 40/42, 50/52, and 60 aircraft. The only blocks that have not been integrated with Harpoon are 10/15. Secondly, I recall that of the original MLU countries, only Norway was able to integrate an AShM and it was the Penguin AShM on their blk15s because the Harpoon integration was not forthcoming.

I also think that an MLU is a great thing. It gives our older aircraft parity with some of the most modern 4.5 gen aircraft. Even if we do not have Harpoon/JDAM capability, there is plenty of other stuff that these aircraft can do.

Here is a list of updates in the MLU program from open source.

*DT&E software tapes 1 thru 4*

The DT&E aircraft now use the MLU Tape-1 software. This version will be replaced in June 1996 by the more extensive Tape-2 at the beginning of the OT&E phase. Tape-4 denote the final version which will be used in the Mid Life Update of other aircraft to be modified.

Development of the M1-tape went through four phases of Flight Test Tapes (FTT). In each of these test tapes, other performances where met, including:

FTT-1 tape

* Radar performance evaluation

FTT-2 tape

* Weapon modes Air-Air and Air-Ground testing
* Navigation (INS and GPS)
* Basic MMC core functions integration

FTT-3 tape

* Datalink
* IFF interrogation
* Horizontal Situation Display
* DTS integration
* Cockpit color screen implementation

FTT-4 tape

* "Clean-up" tape (intended as correction to imperfections found in earlier phases)

After the M1 tape, the M2 tape followed in 2000, M3 tape in 2003, M4 tape in 2005 and M5 tape in 2009. All these tapes incorporate other features, including:

M2 tape

* Automatic Target Hand-off System (ATHS)
* Integration of anti radiation missile capability
* Integration of target designator system
* Further implementation of the Digital Terrain System

M3 tape

* Integration of the Link-16 system
* Integration of capability for GPS controlled weapons (GBU30/32)
* Introduction of Helmet Mounted/Cueing Sight
* Introduction of NVG compatible helmets

*M4 tape

* Introduction of advanced short-range missile, as a replacement for the current Sidewinder (AIM-9X, IRIS-T)
* Integration of advanced Link-16 functions
* Integration of SNIPER targeting pods

M5 tape

* Integration of capability for stand-off weapons (AGM-154)
* Introduction of more advanced A/G weapons (EGBU-12)
* Introduction of advanced Stores Management System
*

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## Quwa

PAF F-16s will also have JHMCS.


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## TOPGUN

Yea wonder wat shape they gona be good point??


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## superbikez

wil pak purchase new F16s Block 60 or 50/52 in 2009 or 2010 ??? anychance ?? anyone know ?


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## TOPGUN

Can we some pic's of the new Paf f-16 shapes to come ? thx


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## RS4

question?

I know there is already a thresd about this, but as Paf are getting 18 blk 52 F16s, what will Paf do if IAF choose the more advanced F16 IN for its MRCA programme. Will we still look to F16 blk/52/60 to give us a high tech edge?


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## Neo

We're sticking with the plan to buy 18 block 52 F-16CD and to upgrade existing fleet plus 32 surplus ex-USAF to MLU3 level. The deal will really boost PAF's capabilities.

PAF's near future plans include the acquisition of FC-20, a more powerful 4.5 gen fighter in the league of Typhoon that will meat any threat from our eastern border.

Tough its still too early to reveal details I can only tell you that we're in contact with Russia for the delivery of a Russian powerplant, I can't reveal more detalis as yet.
This variant has increased thrust and TVC capability, very suitable for the single engined FC-20.


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## RS4

Neo said:


> We're sticking with the plan to buy 18 block 52 F-16CD and to upgrade existing fleet plus 32 surplus ex-USAF to MLU3 level. The deal will really boost PAF's capabilities.
> 
> PAF's near future plans include the acquisition of FC-20, a more powerful 4.5 gen fighter in the league of Typhoon that will meat any threat from our eastern border.
> 
> Tough its still too early to reveal details I can only tell you that we're in contact with Russia for the delivery of a Russian powerplant, I can't reveal more detalis as yet.
> This variant has increased thrust and TVC capability, very suitable for the single engined FC-20.





IS the j10 really in the same league as the Typhoon, it is one of the most tech advanced aircraft in the woorld and can super cruise and has a powerful x band radar, so how can the two be compared my friend.


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## Neo

RS4 said:


> IS the j10 really in the same league as the Typhoon, it is one of the most tech advanced aircraft in the woorld and can super cruise and has a powerful x band radar, so how can the two be compared my friend.



Too early to tell about its capabilities but the FC-20 is a further development of the J-10B (not the basic J-10A) which is widely considered as 4.5 gen MRCA. Its being tested in China as we speak.


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## IceCold

Neo said:


> We're sticking with the plan to buy 18 block 52 F-16CD and to upgrade existing fleet plus 32 surplus ex-USAF to MLU3 level. The deal will really boost PAF's capabilities.
> 
> PAF's near future plans include the acquisition of FC-20, a more powerful 4.5 gen fighter in the league of Typhoon that will meat any threat from our eastern border.
> 
> Tough its still too early to reveal details I can only tell you that we're in contact with Russia for the delivery of a Russian powerplant, I can't reveal more detalis as yet.
> This variant has increased thrust and TVC capability, very suitable for the single engined FC-20.




Neo can you please shed some more light on the engine of the JFs. I know this isnt the thread however since your post is related to all the related developments, are we going with the same RD-93 or perhaps we might opt for a better engine with more thrust and smoke free from Russia perhaps the RD-93B.


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## Muradk

Guys the F-16 B/15 and B/52 are the same machine but very advanced Tec and Weapons. Plus with CFT we will have an advantage of deeper strike capabilities.


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## fatman17

Muradk said:


> Guys the F-16 B/15 and B/52 are the same machine but very advanced Tec and Weapons. Plus with CFT we will have an advantage of deeper strike capabilities.



Sir, isnt the airframe of the B/52 larger than that of the B/15?


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## Zob

what is CFT? and what is the major diffrence in the F-16's BLK 52 and the F-16IN offered to India? can somebody please tell me the major diffrences?


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## araz

Zob said:


> what is CFT? and what is the major diffrence in the F-16's BLK 52 and the F-16IN offered to India? can somebody please tell me the major diffrences?



CFT= conformal fuel tanks
araz


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## fatman17

Zob said:


> what is CFT? and what is the major diffrence in the F-16's BLK 52 and the F-16IN offered to India? can somebody please tell me the major diffrences?



F-16IN would include sensors offered to India only. just like the F-16I Sufa is Israel specific.


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## Arsalan

> F-16IN would include sensors offered to India only. just like the F-16I Sufa is Israel specific



after all this development in american indian defene feild, what do you peopke think the upgraded block 15z of pakistan will be any good??


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## Arsalan

*do you think that we can be a match for indainz having Su30, block 70 F16 or F18 hornets, Su27z and we trying to get them out of our air space by the UPGRADED( if it wishfull happens) Block 15 F16, and no medium or high range SAM,*


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## Arsalan

sir the man behind the machine do matter a lot but its not onle the man behind the machine,
butdo you people think, isnt it a sceaniro we have to deal with great care??


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## Myth_buster_1

arsalanaslam123 said:


> *do you think that we can be a match for indainz having Su30, block 70 F16 or F18 hornets, Su27z and we trying to get them out of our air space by the UPGRADED( if it wishfull happens) Block 15 F16, and no medium or high range SAM,*



chul lo g. oh mayre jaan, F-16 block 70 qub say aa gaya IAF ke inventory maan?!!! F-16 Fa-18 Mig-35 (EF and rafale are out of the picture) are contenders for 120+ MRCA and only one MRCA will be selected. what it seems to me that super hornets will likely win the contender as it will also give indian naval air force a great punch! Boeing just recently won 2+ billion contract for 8 P-8 planes and Super hornet will likely win so... 

and btw we have FC-20 to counter that. and we never now PAF may suprise us with something more in 4-5 years.


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## Jihad

Don't think the PAF will sit back and look at how India gets alot of new goodies.
I'm not worried, we have our own businessess aswell.

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## Myth_buster_1

hmmm. F-16 with PAF paint scheme equiped with AGM-154 AMRAAM and Aim-9. wait wiat wiat..


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## IceCold

PC said:


> hmmm. F-16 with PAF paint scheme equiped with AGM-154 AMRAAM and Aim-9. wait wiat wiat..



PC which F-16 is this? block-15 or the MLU ones?


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## Myth_buster_1

IceCold said:


> PC which F-16 is this? block-15 or the MLU ones?



thats what i am trying to figure out. 

the articel was posted in jan-2008 and for the record first pair of f-16 to land in US for MLU was not before march. another thing to note: the air intake in this picture is wider suggesting that its not blk 15. the question is if its block 52 then where are the CFT? 
the only possiblity is that this could be block-15 in pakistan doing test evaluation for its new armaments? btw pak flag is quite visible.


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## EagleEyes

We already have AGM-154 AMRAAM whats the curiosity for? The aircraft clearly looks like block 15.


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## IceCold

WebMaster said:


> We already have AGM-154 AMRAAM whats the curiosity for? The aircraft clearly looks like block 15.



Are we sure its an AMRAAM? isnt it a JSOW?


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## Arsalan

> *Originally My PC sir!*
> chul lo g. oh mayre jaan, F-16 block 70 qub say aa gaya IAF ke inventory maan?!!



well i quoted it from another thread right at this very site, 

anyways, i am happy that you said that Pakistan will need the J10 to counter the indian threat, actually my point was that many people are still looking forward for he F16z block 15z to tackel the situation and i think this wont be a good idea,

maybe we should look for The super 10, some J11z and even modified second block of our very own JF17.

getting some advanced equipment from turkey may also be a good option, what do you suggest?


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## Arsalan

> *originally posted by PC*
> chul lo g. oh mayre jaan, F-16 block 70 qub say aa gaya IAF ke inventory maan?!!!



i quoted this information from a thread present on this very site, you may have a look at it,

anyways i am happy that you said that we will be having J10z to counter the indian threat, my point was actually against the wishfull thinking of people saying to meet or even defeat india with help of the block 15 F16z, which i dont think will be a good idea!!

i think we must go for Superior J10z, J11b and a more advanced and modified block 2 JF17. getting assistance and equipment from turley can also be another option. *what do you suggest sir*


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## Arsalan

> *originally posted by PC*
> chul lo g. oh mayre jaan, F-16 block 70 qub say aa gaya IAF ke inventory maan?!!!



i quoted this information from a thread present on this very site, you may have a look at it,

anyways i am happy that you said that we will be having J10z to counter the indian threat, my point was actually against the wishfull thinking of people saying to meet or even defeat india with help of the block 15 F16z, which i dont think will be a good idea!!

i think we must go for Superior J10z, J11b and a more advanced and modified block 2 JF17. getting assistance and equipment from turley can also be another option. *what do you suggest sir*


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## Arsalan

*sorry some problem with my system so the same message got posted multiple time
I apologize!!*


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## Myth_buster_1

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well i quoted it from another thread right at this very site,
> 
> anyways, i am happy that you said that Pakistan will need the J10 to counter the indian threat, actually my point was that many people are still looking forward for he F16z block 15z to tackel the situation and i think this wont be a good idea,
> 
> maybe we should look for The super 10, some J11z and even modified second block of our very own JF17.
> 
> getting some advanced equipment from turkey may also be a good option, what do you suggest?



paa g. first of all Pakistani J-10 aint no average J-10 its infact a advance version in indian MRCA contest leage! the reasion why PAK still wants to buy block 15 is because its very cheap and when MLU is given, they become very leathel and its no longer that old block 15 from 1980s! 
from now on you better call PAF j-10 (FC-20)!


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## mean_bird

PC said:


> paa g. first of all Pakistani J-10 aint no average J-10 its infact a advance version in indian MRCA contest leage! the reasion why PAK still wants to buy block 15 is because its very cheap and when MLU is given, they become very leathel and its no longer that old block 15 from 1980s!
> from now on you better call PAF j-10 (FC-20)!



the question is how advanced? 

I am sure PAF will go for western radar and other stuff but didnt ACM said that its an alternative plan should the F16 deal fail? That gives the impression that they are at the same level. 

Also even if we get western radars on it, is it a match for the MKI? I heard and read that it will be one beast but thats rumors at best. Sure its gonna be better than the J10A but the question is by how much? 

thanks for the response by you or anyone with knowledge about it.

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## Arsalan

> the question is how advanced?
> 
> I am sure PAF will go for western radar and other stuff but didnt ACM said that its an alternative plan should the F16 deal fail? That gives the impression that they are at the same level.
> 
> Also even if we get western radars on it, is it a match for the MKI? I heard and read that it will be one beast but thats rumors at best. Sure its gonna be better than the J10A but the question is by how much?



*exactly??. this is the point. *


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## Myth_buster_1

mean_bird said:


> the question is how advanced?
> 
> I am sure PAF will go for western radar and other stuff but didn't ACM said that its an alternative plan should the F16 deal fail?



my friend, JAS-39 was an alternative plan back in 2005-6 when pakistan was negotiating Erieye deal with sweden. god for bid, if US once again jeopardize F-16 deal again then we have new alternative that we don't know of and PAF is prepared for this. ACM has mentioned this in his interview with DAWN NEWS. 



> That gives the impression that they are at the same level.


the 36 FC-20 deal is worth 1.5 billion dollars while 18 F-16 block 52+ is close to 500 million dollars. suggesting that FC-20 is more expensive thus it will incorporate better technology with par to 4.5 generation fighter. 



> Also even if we get western radars on it, is it a match for the MKI? I heard and read that it will be one beast but that's rumors at best. Sure its gonna be better than the J10A but the question is by how much?


the thing is, our newbie military fans have a lot of influence with unreliable sources which apparently are dominated with indian garbage and they tend to take it as reality check. 
FC-20 will incorporate 
- AESA radar 
- TVC engine ( pakistan has requested AL-31 from russia)
- DSI (stealth feature)
- advance EW systems
- new armaments 

Fc-20 will be as good as mki.


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## Zob

Ok firstly my friends i don't understand how can India be getting F-16's BLOCK 70 when there is no designation in the fighter falcon!! secondly i am not sure that this half baked knowledge that J-10 is more expensive means it is better is correct. So please can some one clarify two things for me which f-16 block is india being offered and by the way which BVR's is pakistan being offered with its F-16 MLU's and the Block 50's that we getting.


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## Arsalan

Zob said:


> Ok firstly my friends i don't understand how can India be getting F-16's BLOCK 70 when there is no designation in the fighter falcon!! secondly i am not sure that this half baked knowledge that J-10 is more expensive means it is better is correct. So please can some one clarify two things for me which f-16 block is india being offered and by the way which BVR's is pakistan being offered with its F-16 MLU's and the Block 50's that we getting.



this is from an old article, i am trying to get some updates



> Chinese missile may be for Pakistan's F-16s
> ROBERT HEWSON Editor Jane's Air-Launched Weapons
> Bangkok
> 
> "China is about to bring a second beyond-visual-range (BVR) air-to-air missile (AAM) to the export market. The new weapon, to be known as the FD-60, is already in service with the People's Liberation Army Air Force as the PL-11.
> 
> In China it equips the Shen- yang J-8II 'Finback' interceptor but, according to the manufacturer, the export version is intended for the F-16 - a clear signal that Pakistan could be the lead customer.
> 
> Development of the FD-60 (PL-11) began in 1987 and was completed in 2000, according to the China National Precision Machinery Import & Export Corporation (CPMIEC). The weapon is described as an air-launched version of the LY-60 surface-to-air missile. It uses semi-active radar homing.
> 
> The missile borrows heavily from Aspide technology supplied by Italy before an arms embargo was imposed on China following the Tiananmen Square massacre.
> 
> China also had access to early-model US-built AIM-7 Sparrow missiles acquired via Vietnam, from which the Aspide itself is derived. Since the late 1980s Chinese technicians have been developing a Sparrow-class missile.
> 
> "Until now most observers had assessed the PL-11/FD-60 programme as a largely unsuccessful effort that had been overtaken by the more advanced PL-12/SD-10 active-radar AAM, developed under the leadership of the China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corp (CATIC). However, it now appears that work on the PL-11/FD-60 has continued, perhaps to provide a back-up capability in the event of problems with the PL-12/SD-10 but also because CPMIEC has identified an export market for the missile.
> 
> As the FD-60 is based largely on the Aspide/Sparrow design, integrating it with US-built aircraft should be relatively straightforward. Such a missile would be of great interest to existing customers of Chinese equipment, such as Pakistan and Iran, that have inventories of US fighters for which they cannot obtain advanced weapons - chiefly BVR missiles.
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is already working on acquiring a BVR combat capability through the SD-10 and JF-17 Thunder (CATIC FC-1 fighter) combination. However, the opportunity to add a BVR AAM to its inventory much sooner (via the F-16) would surely be seized by the PAF command, which has already identified such weapons as one of its highest acquisition priorities."


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## Arsalan

*For ZoB*

here it is, the BVR missilies with PAF are:



> 500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles.
> 300 SD-10 Beyond-Visual-Range Air-to-Air Missiles.
> + T-Darter Beyond-Visual-Range Air-to-Air Missiles



and with the F16z it will most probably be the: *500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles*

i hope it helps


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## khanasifm

F16 Blk 52 18 aircraft sqdn worth ~900-950 Million not including weapons. 36 aircraft /2 sqdn with weapons were 3.1 B + 650 M (DSCA notification).

36 FC-20 (if with weapon + support) for 1.5B is less than 1/2 price.

Cheers


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## Myth_buster_1

khanasifm said:


> F16 Blk 52 18 aircraft sqdn worth ~900-950 Million not including weapons. 36 aircraft /2 sqdn with weapons were 3.1 B + 650 M (DSCA notification).
> 
> 36 FC-20 (if with weapon + support) for 1.5B is less than 1/2 price.
> 
> Cheers



the 36 block 52 figure is not right and as of 2008 the 18 new f-16 deal is worth 500 million dollars.


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## PAFAce

PC said:


> Fc-20 will be as good as mki.



Really? That is a pretty bold statement, but I do hope you are right.


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## mean_bird

@ PC

thanks bro for your reply which is quite helpful but I have some doubt about the price you quoted and what exactly is included in it. As far as I know, the FC-20 deal hasn't gone through yet so how can you quote such exact figures? 

Can you provide a reliable source for the prices you have quoted for F-16s and FC-20s and what exactly is included in the package? And by reliable I mean some official statement or newspaper report and not another forum or wiki.

thanks in advance


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## Zob

Thanks Arsalan...for ur help and if u can bro please just clear it out because some posts are really getting confusing concerning the F-16's being offered to India...are they in the rang of BLOCK 60's th ones that UAE has. and i also want to post a link for the J11B...becaue that thread has been closed...i just want to lear out the misconception that J11B is an "indeginously" bulit chinese aircraft that it an export!!! Sukhoi piracy: Russia warns to sue China i hoe this link helps people know that pakistan canot acquire he J11B's without Russian approval and i think F-16's is a good option until our JF-17's are development improvesin the next decade. as for FC-20 and Mki being compared well i am sorry u cannot compare an apple to a pear!! FC-20 has a less powerfull radar has no TVC that we know of...please correct me if i am wrong...


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## Zob

and staying on the BVR topic when will the first BVR missiles be delivered to us i read an article saying PAF cannot get the AIM-120C5's til 2011...as i am still a rookiei can't post links....so i am sorry. of the record i don't uderstand that India had BVR's during the Kargil conflict while our F-16's couldnot lock on to the nemy aicraftsdue to no BVR's why did we take so long to finalize acquring BVR's for our F-16's??!!


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## mean_bird

I think only some over patriotic fans think that J-11B is 'indigenous chinese' that can be offered to other countries without russian approval. J-11 is a licensed copy of Su-27 and J-11B is just another version of it. If it were indigenous, it won't go by the name J-11.

Secondly, for FC-20 it depends on what is being offered. Till date its only speculations as ACM said a deal *will be* finalized so it hasn't yet and nobody knows the specs. It could be anything from an equivalent of a F-16 c/d to a more advanced one. My guess is it will be 'slightly' better than the F-16c/d but I seriously doubt it will have TVC thats in the MKI or such an advanced radar. 

@Zob

sanctions from US most probably


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## Myth_buster_1

PAFAce said:


> Really? That is a pretty bold statement, but I do hope you are right.



YouTube - Pakistan Airforce acquiring 5th generation advanced fighters

DAWN was wrong in saying that FC-20 is a 5th gen fighter but rather a 4.5. 

PAF version will be simillar to this one but with western avionics.



China working on 'Super-10' advanced fighter 

By Henry Ivanov JDW Correspondent 
Moscow 

China is developing an advanced version of the Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Corporation (CAC) J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, referred to as the Super-10, with a more powerful engine, thrust-vector control, stronger airframe and passive phased-array radar, according to Russian sources. 

Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG (RSK-MiG) specialists, contracted to provide technical assistance to Chinese design houses, said the enhancement to the J-10 airframe is a logical step, since the fighter was initially intended to have the compact Pratt&Whitney PW1120 engine that powered the Israeli Lavi aircraft, which served as a basis for the J-10. 

However, the imposition of US export restrictions forced the decision to install the 20 per cent heavier Russian AL-31FN engine, which requires a larger intake as it needs 40 per cent more air flow. 

In late 2005 China placed a USD300 million order for a second batch of AL-31FN engines; these are a derivative of the Su-27's AL-31F for single-engine aircraft, with a lower positioning of the gearbox. At first, it was believed the contract was for the same engines as in the first batch of 54 units supplied in 2001-02 and installed into development prototypes and initial production J-10s. However, AL-31FN-maker Moscow Machine Production Plant (MMPP) Salyut in December 2005 revealed the order to be for the AL-31FN M1, which is claimed to be a new AL-31FN production standard. 

The company's general manager, Yuri Eliseyev, said the new engine was purposely developed for what he referred to as the "Chinese Super-10 fighter". Four such engines have been seen assembled at MMPP Salyut's Moscow production site. One of these has been demonstrated undergoing fire testing, during which its swivel nozzle was deflected up/down and sideways at full power and reheated thrust.

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## superbikez

is that PAF going for this ????


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## superbikez

Thank u very much sir but its just a statment used by Tanveer mehmood "we will get modern F16s in 2010" i wanted to know pure article related PAF go for BLOCK 50/52. If any article statement or any thing "written" available kindly share.

thanks


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## IceCold

I was always of this opinion and i have stated the same in the F-16 thread that we should have had atleast procured 36 of the new generation F-16s. There is no point in obtaining just 18.


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## mean_bird

Exactly; far better is what PAF is doing i.e get 18 and provision for 18 more.

Lets get the 18 first and if all goes well we can order 18 more if we need them rather than having our money stuck for 36 aircrafts and some new sanctions come into place and we do not have money to buy any alternate. This way we are using the money for the additional 18 F-16s for the FC-20.


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## superbikez

*seriously i dun like chines stuff... IF US deliver Block 50/52 in 2011 (18) thn PAF must go for atleast more 50-60 BLOCK 50/52 F16s if PAF have budget btw 2010-2015. In front of me If US shown his true friendly relationship in Weapons thn PAF go for F16s and F18 Superhornet... its my opinion becuz IAF have Quantity with very nice jet SU30 MKI so PAF should go for F16s block 50/52 and superhornet.*


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## Kasrkin

I just asked a serving officer of the PAF and he told me that there isn&#8217;t much difference between the Block 52 and Block 60s. But that the Block 60s are only used by Israel and UAE therefore getting spare parts for them would be a downright pain in the arse which is primarily the reason why they chose the Block 52 which has more widespread service in the international market.


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## mean_bird

superbikez said:


> *seriously i dun like chines stuff... IF US deliver Block 50/52 in 2011 (18) thn PAF must go for atleast more 50-60 BLOCK 50/52 F16s if PAF have budget btw 2010-2015. In front of me If US shown his true friendly relationship in Weapons thn PAF go for F16s and F18 Superhornet... its my opinion becuz IAF have Quantity with very nice jet SU30 MKI so PAF should go for F16s block 50/52 and superhornet.*



dear, you are assuming that everything is available to us and PAF has the luxury to choose what it wants which is not the case

nobody is offering us a F-18 superhornet so irrespective of what you wish, we ain't getting any anytime soon. And whether or not you like chinese stuff, they are the best and most affordable things we can buy. If we want to be choosers, we will have to develop something ourselves.

Hell the only reason the US thinks it was a mistake to sanction us and is now willing to give us the F-16 is because we can get the FC-20 anyway so they can't do ****. Hence they might just cash the oppurtunity while showing to be doing us a favor by giving us those F-16s. 

And the only reason why we are getting those F-16s after all this is firstly, we don't want to severe relationship with US, We have already paid for some F-16s and also have some facility and training on them and also as good as our friendship is with china, nobody puts all his goods in the same basket.


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## RS4

I think the PAF must explore all options, i dnt believe that BLK 52 will not be delivered, but once they are here if PAF need more which i am sure the PAF will then we can order more. Also i think the PAF want to see what the out come of India MRCA programme is in which both F16 BLK 70 and FA 18 /E/F are in as tenders for the deal The FC20 is also a good option as it is based on the Israili Lavi fighter which is essential a delta wing F16. However i would like to see in the not so distant future a European fighter in the Paf possibly Rafle etc
Thanks RS4


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## PAFAce

superbikez said:


> is that PAF going for this ????



I think I had read previously something about increased stealth for the Pakistani F-16 Block 50/52. I mean, I had heard some stuff about modified intakes to reduce infrared (heat) signature and RADAR deflection on this and other forums. Was that all that fanboy hype or will the B/52 be modified further for Pakistan?


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## TOPGUN

I agree with RS4 let the first batch of 18 aircraft come to us and then i think we should order the 18 more we need these babies i rather have these 36 then any other aircraft to be put on order!!


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## Neo

*Threads merged.*


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## Keysersoze

Kasrkin said:


> I just asked a serving officer of the PAF and he told me that there isnt much difference between the Block 52 and Block 60s. But that the Block 60s are only used by Israel and UAE therefore getting spare parts for them would be a downright pain in the arse which is primarily the reason why they chose the Block 52 which has more widespread service in the international market.



Block 60 is ONLY used by the UAE Israel uses a version of the BLK 52 called the sufa Which has some Israeli components replace American ones. But for all intents and purposes it is a blk 52.


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## RS4

Keysersoze said:


> Block 60 is ONLY used by the UAE Israel uses a version of the BLK 52 called the sufa Which has some Israeli components replace American ones. But for all intents and purposes it is a blk 52.



I think it is worth mentioning that the Blk 60 has not even entered USAF servie yet, much is being made of the fact that INdia has been offered the BLK 70 and that PAF did not get Blk 60. But bear in mind that BLK 52 is very simialr to BLK 60 and in the future most likely will be upgraded to whatever the USAF is useing. PAF will following the USAF lead and as it will look to the USAF and lockheed direct for spare part and upgradea etc.I think we must now read in to this to much. Also the Indian Air force will co manufacture the aircraft selected in the MRCA programme. PAC as of yet dooes not have the capabilities to manufacture and advanced western fighter the F16. This incapability is being adressed in the form of the JF17, but this development i n PAK aviation capabilities will take time. The BLK 52 is and will be the most potent platform in the PAF to date. I dnt think the US will place an arms embargo on Pakistan again. That does not mean we should be suprised to see more arms deals between India and the US. BUT REMEBER India is going to a Super power, is the worlds largest Democracies and is a global economic power added in India use by the West to counter the Supermacy of China over Asia. Pakistan in none of the above so we can expect to be given such status by the US. The World is changing and the old Cold War legacies and dieing, Pakistan must realistic in its expectation from it alliance with US, and look Strengthen its alliances with Turkey, China possibly France etc. I think PAF have got a good aircraft platform in the BLK 52, and would not be suprised if we see more of them in the PAF in the future.


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## superbikez

waiting waiting waiting.. im waiting for this BLK 52 in PAF (2011) inshallah.... I think BLK 52 is best for Pakistan Airforce....


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## Kasrkin

> Israel uses a version of the BLK 52 called the sufa Which has some Israeli components replace American ones. But for all intents and purposes it is a blk 52.



If you say so, but I'll be sure to check it up.


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## Contrarian

You cannot upgrade to a Blk 60. It has a different structure, it has some changes in the airframe among other things. The max you can reach is a blk 52 apart from the Soufa-which again is tailored to the Israeli requirements and has numerous Israeli equipment replacing the standard equipment.


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## IceCold

Kharian_Beast said:


> I think we should, if only the Americans are willing to prove that they are a reliable and friendly source. It should be a give and take relationship, but due to their current actions involving the WoT, much can be argued against American weaponry at the same time.



I dont think so that at this stage they can prove to be unreliable. The reason i make such a claim is because as long as the US is engaged in Afghanistan, they will continue with their carrort and stick policy for Pakistan and not just stick and US isnt leaving Afghanistan anytime soon. Obama will be even more focused on Afghanistan then Bush ever was because of Iraq.


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## superbikez

IceCold said:


> I dont think so that at this stage they can prove to be unreliable. The reason i make such a claim is because as long as the US is engaged in Afghanistan, they will continue with their carrort and stick policy for Pakistan and not just stick and US isnt leaving Afghanistan anytime soon. Obama will be even more focused on Afghanistan then Bush ever was because of Iraq.



exactly PAF should demand for F16s and more n more F16s this time to get opportunity, Demands new weapons on the name of WoT fight. If us will deliver 18 F16s block 50/52 in 2011 thn PAF go for more 50 _ F16s of different version if Paf have enough budget... what do u think guys ? and how much we can trust about the deal between PAF and US of new BLK 50/52 in 2010-11.


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## Salahadin

Future Orders
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article14.html

On March 25th, 2005, the US Government announced that it had agreed to Pakistan's request to sell new F-16s. Initially, Pakistan has requested an additional 24 new Block 50/52 F-16C/Ds (with option for as much as 55 aircraft). Not much details are known at this moment about a possible sale of the aircraft to Pakistan. The deal is expected to be concluded by September or October of 2005. As part of the package, it was also agreed that the current fleet of older A/B models would get the MLU update.

As a sign of good gesture, the US agreed to supply Pakistan with a number of F-16s who where build under the Peace Gate III/IV programs. Up to now 2 have already been delivered.

Finally, after long series of negotiations, on September 30th, 2006 the contract was signed between the Pakistani and US government for the acquisition of 18 new F-16C/D block 52 aircraft and an option for another 18 more. In the deal the re-delivery of the 26 remaining Peace Gate III/IV aircraft was also agreed and the upgrade of those aircraft - and the remaining F-16A/B fleet - to MLU standards.

PAF Inventory
Program	Model	Block	Qty.	Serials	Delivered
Peace Gate I	F-16A	Block 15	2	82701/82702	1983
F-16B	Block 15	4	82601/82604	1983
Peace Gate II	F-16A	Block 15	26	83703, 84704/84719,
85720/85728	1983-1987
F-16B	Block 15	8	82605, 84606/84608,
85609/85612	1983-1987
Peace Gate III	F-16A	Block 15OCU	6	91729, 92730/92734	embargoed
F-16B	Block 15OCU	5	91613, 92614/92617	embargoed
Peace Gate IV	F-16A	Block 15OCU	7	92735/92739, 93740/93741	embargoed
F-16B	Block 15OCU	10	92618, 93619/93621,
94622/94624, 95625/95627	embargoed
F-16A	Block 15OCU	41	9_742/9_782	stop-work
F-16B	Block 15OCU	2	9_628/9_629	stop-work
New Order	F-16C	Block 52	12	?	2009-2010
F-16D	Block 52	6	?	2009-2010
Option	F-16C/D	Block 52	18	?	2009-2010

I work for lockheed martin I have also heard that pakistan may be offered f18 in 2012-13


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## notorious_eagle

Salahadin said:


> Future Orders
> http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article14.html
> 
> On March 25th, 2005, the US Government announced that it had agreed to Pakistan's request to sell new F-16s. Initially, Pakistan has requested an additional 24 new Block 50/52 F-16C/Ds (with option for as much as 55 aircraft). Not much details are known at this moment about a possible sale of the aircraft to Pakistan. The deal is expected to be concluded by September or October of 2005. As part of the package, it was also agreed that the current fleet of older A/B models would get the MLU update.
> 
> As a sign of good gesture, the US agreed to supply Pakistan with a number of F-16s who where build under the Peace Gate III/IV programs. Up to now 2 have already been delivered.
> 
> Finally, after long series of negotiations, on September 30th, 2006 the contract was signed between the Pakistani and US government for the acquisition of 18 new F-16C/D block 52 aircraft and an option for another 18 more. In the deal the re-delivery of the 26 remaining Peace Gate III/IV aircraft was also agreed and the upgrade of those aircraft - and the remaining F-16A/B fleet - to MLU standards.
> 
> PAF Inventory
> Program	Model	Block	Qty.	Serials	Delivered
> Peace Gate I	F-16A	Block 15	2	82701/82702	1983
> F-16B	Block 15	4	82601/82604	1983
> Peace Gate II	F-16A	Block 15	26	83703, 84704/84719,
> 85720/85728	1983-1987
> F-16B	Block 15	8	82605, 84606/84608,
> 85609/85612	1983-1987
> Peace Gate III	F-16A	Block 15OCU	6	91729, 92730/92734	embargoed
> F-16B	Block 15OCU	5	91613, 92614/92617	embargoed
> Peace Gate IV	F-16A	Block 15OCU	7	92735/92739, 93740/93741	embargoed
> F-16B	Block 15OCU	10	92618, 93619/93621,
> 94622/94624, 95625/95627	embargoed
> F-16A	Block 15OCU	41	9_742/9_782	stop-work
> F-16B	Block 15OCU	2	9_628/9_629	stop-work
> New Order	F-16C	Block 52	12	?	2009-2010
> F-16D	Block 52	6	?	2009-2010
> Option	F-16C/D	Block 52	18	?	2009-2010
> 
> *I work for lockheed martin I have also heard that pakistan may be offered f18 in 2012-13*



Yes but i seriousally doubt it if PAF will go for F18's.


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## hanmya

notorious_eagle said:


> Yes but i seriousally doubt it if PAF will go for F18's.



Would those F-18's be the base models or the superhornets - the A/B, C/D or the E/F variants? The E/F variants are the ones in the Indian MMRCA competition. AFAIK they are not giving anyone the E/F variants, except for the Australian Airforce!
Is you are offered the base model, would that be a near obsolete plane by then compared to USAF standards?


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## Zob

I don't think pakistan will be intrested in F-18's i guess PAF has an affection for F-16's that i doubt will ever dwindle...besides i think pakistan wishes to improve its JF-17's and purchase a few J-10's and have one squadron of F-16's blk-52. i guess that is more than sufficent if u want to have a detterance...PAF never hasn any plans of using its airforce for offensive measures!!


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## MastanKhan

Zob said:


> I don't think pakistan will be intrested in F-18's i guess PAF has an affection for F-16's that i doubt will ever dwindle...besides i think pakistan wishes to improve its JF-17's and purchase a few J-10's and have one squadron of F-16's blk-52. i guess that is more than sufficent if u want to have a detterance...PAF never hasn any plans of using its airforce for offensive measures!!




Zob,

How are you? As I wrote in one of my other post on another thread---we know PAF is heading into a different direction----it will be a different airforce in 2015---nothing compared to what it is today by any means---we can all talk about it---but unless we see the machines in operation, till that time we cannot comprehend what we have gotten ourselves.

Yes---today we talk about PAF being a defensive strike force---but tomorrow's PAF will be an offensive strike capability airforce----with all this procurement for the coming years, where do you think we are heading for----we already know that on the political front, we are never going to have peace just being defensive. Our opponent has made it very clear time and again----keeping that into consideration and then looking at the strength of the PAF after 2015---it will be very difficult to control the FLYBOYS from doing what they do best.

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## TOPGUN

I agree totally wish MasterKhan well said sir may this happen soon to come inshallah GOD bless Pakistan!!!!!!!!!


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## TOPGUN

Wat about any other platforms we can look in to other then f-16's or chinese ? or we can get ?? any views guys but realistic ones !!


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## Jihad

MastanKhan said:


> Zob,
> 
> How are you? As I wrote in one of my other post on another thread---we know PAF is heading into a different direction----it will be a different airforce in 2015---nothing compared to what it is today by any means---we can all talk about it---but unless we see the machines in operation, till that time we cannot comprehend what we have gotten ourselves.
> 
> Yes---today we talk about PAF being a defensive strike force---but tomorrow's PAF will be an offensive strike capability airforce----with all this procurement for the coming years, where do you think we are heading for----we already know that on the political front, we are never going to have peace just being defensive. Our opponent has made it very clear time and again----keeping that into consideration and then looking at the strength of the PAF after 2015---it will be very difficult to control the FLYBOYS from doing what they do best.



Excellent post, I could not agree more.


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## ejaz007

*Pakistan presses US for early provision of F-16s*

ISLAMABAD: Defence Minister Ahmad Mukhtar on Tuesday urged the United States to help Pakistan meet its security requirements including the provision of F-16 aircraft. He was talking to United States Ambassador to Pakistan Anne W Patterson who called on him to discuss matters of bilateral interest. A statement by the Defence Ministry said the two officials exchanged views over the current bilateral defence cooperation. The minister informed the US envoy about the defence requirements of Pakistan particularly the provision of F-16 aircraft, the statement said. The US ambassador emphasised the need to further strengthen bilateral defence ties for mutual benefit. Both sides agreed to intensify bilateral cooperation to overcome the challenges being faced by Pakistan. The most recent US delivery of F-16 fighter aircraft to Pakistan was made in July last year. The US had provided the aircraft at no cost except for the expenses of transport from the US to Pakistan. staff report

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

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## Zob

Hi Mastan khan,

I agree with u but do you ever think PAF will ever be able to be an agressor..i doubt it PAF might retalite in style and make the enemy bleed...besides our F-16's and JF-17's and all those other planes are good but they r not top of the line products!! yes being a PAKISTANI i am proud of PAF's new inventory...but we have to admit that due to political reasons we r a cash starved nation and will remain so...and india will keep purchasing things that we can drool upon!! but having said that maintence of such high end products will hurt india alot!!! so yes irnoically we will have a sort of a balance!!! anyhow 2015 is too far off can you please tell me when the first lot of F16 BLK 52 with BVR's and helmet mounted displays and avionics and everything that a BLK 52 should have arrive in pakistan


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## raheelocelot

Zob said:


> I agree with u but do you ever think PAF will ever be able to be an agressor..i doubt it PAF might retalite in style and make the enemy bleed...besides our F-16's and JF-17's and all those other planes are good but they r not top of the line products!!



Military is always aggressive..Its never purely defensive. It cant be..Enemy take one area, we capture another. So, this argument that we are defensive military is not all true. An airforce in particular is mostly offensive. We penetrate enemy to achive results for tomorrows battle. The famous Pathankot strike is a great example. It was a pre-emptive strike, offensive in nature and yielded great results. With new weapons and planes coming in, our offence capability would increase. This would happen due to better self protection, precision weapons, effectice counter measures and improved air environment controlling.

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## Neo

*Pakistan presses US for early provision of F-16s​*
ISLAMABAD: Defence Minister Ahmad Mukhtar on Tuesday urged the United States to help Pakistan meet its security requirements including the provision of F-16 aircraft. He was talking to United States Ambassador to Pakistan Anne W Patterson who called on him to discuss matters of bilateral interest. 

A statement by the Defence Ministry said the two officials exchanged views over the current bilateral defence cooperation. The minister informed the US envoy about the defence requirements of Pakistan particularly the provision of F-16 aircraft, the statement said. The US ambassador emphasised the need to further strengthen bilateral defence ties for mutual benefit. 

Both sides agreed to intensify bilateral cooperation to overcome the challenges being faced by Pakistan. The most recent US delivery of F-16 fighter aircraft to Pakistan was made in July last year. The US had provided the aircraft at no cost except for the expenses of transport from the US to Pakistan.


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## Najam Khan

Neo said:


> the US had provided the aircraft at no cost except for the expenses of transport from the US to Pakistan.



What Cost???Nobody can pay the price of the blood of our Soldiers dying in WoT...i completely disagree with this statement


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## Jihad

NAjAM Khan said:


> What Cost???Nobody can pay the price of the blood of our Soldiers dying in WoT...i completely disagree with this statement



I think he meant money-wise.


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## mahmoodadeel

Pak urges US for early supply of F-16s to meet defence requirements

Sensing the need of strengthening its air defence amidst high tension, and rising war fears with India, Pakistan has asked the United States for an early delivery of F-16 fighter jets.

Pakistan Defence Minister Ahmad Mukhtar has urged the United States to help Pakistan meet its security requirements, including the provision of F-16 aircraft, The Daily Times reported.

Mukhtar met US Ambassador to Pakistan, Anne W Patterson, and informed her about Paks military requirements.

The Minister informed the US envoy about the defence requirements of Pakistan particularly the provision of F-16 aircraft, a statement issued by the Pakistan Defence Ministry said.

The United States had agreed to provide Pakistan F-16 fighter aircrafts in July last year at no cost, except transportation charges from US to Pakistan. (ANI)

freshnews.in/pak-urges-us-for-early-supply-of-f-16%E2%80%99s-to-meet-defence-requirements-113573

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## Zob

i personally believe that its not the fighters that are delayed it is the AMRAAMs we have F-16's MLUs with us...in case of a misadventure by the enemy...the biggest problem we will face is the BVR threat...an F-16 without a AMRAAM is a good fighter but not able to perform to the best of its abiltiy


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## IceCold

A question here if some one could answer perhaps a senior member, Out of the total 18 block-52 F-16s that we are getting, how many of them will be used in operational squadron and how many would put for backup,spare parts in case our relations with the US cool down?


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## MastanKhan

IceCold said:


> A question here if some one could answer perhaps a senior member, Out of the total 18 block-52 F-16s that we are getting, how many of them will be used in operational squadron and how many would put for backup,spare parts in case our relations with the US cool down?



Icecold,

My good man, every single one of them would be used to the fullest of its abilities and capabilities----till they are torn apart beyond use---PAF has never been in a position to keep some of them for reserve or parts duty---as a principal no air force anywhere in the world keeps a hold on any of its planes as a backup for spare parts unless the aircraft is not airworthy or unsafe to fly----WAR BIRDS ARE WAR MACHINES---they will all keep flying till they meet their demise.

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## ejaz007

I agree with Mastan Khan. We are not in a position to keep some of them as spare/back up.

However what we can do is maintain healthy stock of spares to avoid the situation we were in during the 90's.


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## hj786

Rather than PAF buying a boom refueler just for F-16s, why not modify some under-wing droptanks with extendable refuelling probes so that they can use the IL-76 drogue refuellers? Fit one refuelling droptank to each F-16 when required. 
How hard can it be? I read somewhere that another air force has done this.


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## Quwa

hj786 said:


> Rather than PAF buying a boom refueler just for F-16s, why not modify some under-wing droptanks with extendable refuelling probes so that they can use the IL-76 drogue refuellers? Fit one refuelling droptank to each F-16 when required.
> How hard can it be? I read somewhere that another air force has done this.


I could swear that F-16 could be modified for Hose-and-Drogue...

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## blain2

MastanKhan said:


> Icecold,
> 
> My good man, every single one of them would be used to the fullest of its abilities and capabilities----till they are torn apart beyond use---PAF has never been in a position to keep some of them for reserve or parts duty---as a principal no air force anywhere in the world keeps a hold on any of its planes as a backup for spare parts unless the aircraft is not airworthy or unsafe to fly----WAR BIRDS ARE WAR MACHINES---they will all keep flying till they meet their demise.



I agree. Mothballing happens when all other sources of spares have been exhausted. The blk-52s would be kept at the highest possible serviceability rates and given the fact that PAF has considerable relations with TUSAS/TUAF, I do not foresee a major problem (for as long as our relations with the US do not go the way of Pressler amendment).

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## blain2

hj786 said:


> Rather than PAF buying a boom refueler just for F-16s, why not modify some under-wing droptanks with extendable refuelling probes so that they can use the IL-76 drogue refuellers? Fit one refuelling droptank to each F-16 when required.
> How hard can it be? I read somewhere that another air force has done this.



Its doable however its a limited option. You can only store a limited amount of fuel in the droptanks on the wing stations. If you have to keep a few F-16s up in the air, it would be fairly difficult. I do not think that operation IL-78s and KC-10s would be that big of an issue. If one platform can be optimized for both boom refueling and drogue/probe then its great, however lacking that, we can handle two different platforms.

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## hj786

Mark Sien said:


> I could swear that F-16 could be modified for Hose-and-Drogue...



You must be thinking of the USN F/A-18. Those use hose/drogue. F-16 has a little door on it's back which the boom must connect to.

Blain2, can't the F-16's fuel system just keep sucking the fuel out of the probe-equipped droptank while it is being refuelled and deposit it in the other internal/external tanks until they are full? PAF should use engineering to solve this problem rather than money IMO. If it can be done, surely it's a lot cheaper than buying yet another jet platform.

According to this article: http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.aviation.military.naval/2006-06/msg00184.html
The advantages of a boom refueler - very high pressure/high speed refuelling - are lost on small fighter jets cos only large aircraft like bombers can take fuel at the highest speeds a boom refueller can deliver - fighters can't, so they may as well just use hose/drogue.


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## x_man

hj786 said:


> Blain2, can't the F-16's fuel system just keep sucking the fuel out of the probe-equipped droptank while it is being refuelled and deposit it in the other internal/external tanks until they are full? PAF should use engineering to solve this problem rather than money IMO. If it can be done, surely it's a lot cheaper than buying yet another jet platform.



Before Blains reply, I will give a little input. If I understand correctly, you are suggesting fitting a probe in a drop tank?? Well, its not possible for many reasons. In any air combat situation, the drop tanks are always the first casualty. These are immediately jettisoned by pilot to reduce load penalties and to enhance the manoeuvrability envelop. So as per your suggestion, with drops gone, the refuelling capability will also go: so back to square one...

In any aircraft, aerial refulling is done thru a single point refulling...E.g. all the internal and external tanks of F-16 are refuelled from a single point on its fuselage rear of canopy. In each tank there are baffles, check valves and non-return valves that provide safety against the reverse flow of fuel Once flying in normal conditions, the non return / check valves make sure that fuel travels in only one direction.Any tempering with the system can result in fuel line cavitations or blocking and results can be disastrous

Also, aircrafts fuel system is very critically designed to ensure that all the time it remains with its CG limits.Any reverse flow or imbalance in one tank will shift the CG fore or aft and making aircraft drastically unstable and difficult to control

Your suggestion is quite interesting but it will demand a major design change in the whole fuel system of aircraft which I dont think that PAF has such expertise or anyone in airforce will approve of such a major mod..Also, the fuel system is associated with lot of other systems and will require further mods in other systems too.Only manufacturer can approve such mods and I am sure if it was worth trying to, they must had tested it by now.

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## hj786

x_man said:


> Before Blain&#8217;s reply, I will give a little input. If I understand correctly, you are suggesting fitting a probe in a drop tank?? Well, it&#8217;s not possible for many reasons. In any air combat situation, the drop tanks are always the first casualty. These are immediately jettisoned by pilot to reduce load penalties and to enhance the manoeuvrability envelop. So as per your suggestion, with drops gone, the refuelling capability will also go: so back to square one...
> 
> In any aircraft, aerial refulling is done thru a single point refulling...E.g. all the internal and external tanks of F-16 are refuelled from a single point on its fuselage rear of canopy. In each tank there are baffles, check valves and non-return valves that provide safety against the reverse flow of fuel &#8230;Once flying in normal conditions, the non return / check valves make sure that fuel travels in only one direction&#8230;.Any tempering with the system can result in fuel line cavitations or blocking and results can be disastrous&#8230;
> 
> Also, aircrafts fuel system is very critically designed to ensure that all the time it remains with its CG limits&#8230;.Any reverse flow or imbalance in one tank will shift the CG fore or aft and making aircraft drastically unstable and difficult to control&#8230;
> 
> Your suggestion is quite interesting but it will demand a major design change in the whole fuel system of aircraft which I don&#8217;t think that PAF has such expertise or anyone in airforce will approve of such a major mod&#8230;..Also, the fuel system is associated with lot of other systems and will require further mods in other systems too&#8230;.Only manufacturer can approve such mods and I am sure if it was worth trying to, they must had tested it by now&#8230;.



Thank you for your input sir.
I thought that for a CAP mission where loitering time is needed and droptanks would not normally be jettisoned, the concept may be viable. I was also assuming that PAF's F-16s would only be used as an AMRAAM launching platform - no need to get close-in, no need to jettison droptanks. 

I thought about all the fuel control valves and so on - I have been in the Avro Vulcan cockpit and was shown a panel of switches that I was told were just for the fuel tanks (there must have been at least 20, I think 6 or so for each wing and more for fuselage tanks), but I was sure I read about the israeli airforce doing something like this with drop tanks on some other forum. 

Being able to see the probe from the canopy is also necessary I guess, the probe coming from the droptank would have to be pretty long to be in the view of the pilot.

Never mind, I guess a boom refueller won't be such a big deal - its only one more platform for 80-odd F-16s.


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## nitetrogen70

yo guys check this out lol YouTube - airplane coming out of water

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## blain2

An F-15 is superimposed on top of a SLCM. Bogus.


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## shehbazi2001

blain2 said:


> An F-15 is superimposed on top of a SLCM. Bogus.



I think its an SLBM because apart from UGM-109 Sub-launched Tomahawak, there are not much land-attack cruise missiles that are launched from submarine.

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## jupiter2007

Pakistan should be getting more surplus F-16a/b from Davis-Monthan AFB surplus storage. 
Davis-Monthan AFB: surplus F-16s in storage on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

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## hj786

Had another idea.

Remove the F-16's 20mm gatling cannon, fit an extendable probe there. The probe can extend through the gun port and looking at the position of the gun, the probe system will be within reach of the fuel system's boom-refuelling connection point. Just connect them up, no need for a boom-refueller!

Of course, the problem is you either have no gun or you fit a gun pod to an external hardpoint. 
But the way I see it, they shouldn't use expensive F-16s as dog-fighters anyway. Use them as beyond-visual range AMRAAM launching platforms and let JF-17s go close-in with infra-red seeking missiles - JF-17's are far more expendable than F-16s, PAF can replace them by simply building a few more. Therefore, the F-16s wouldn't really need guns as they aren't gonna go in close very often and if they do, they have sidewinders and JHMCS. If they still need guns, use a gun pod - F-16 has no shortage of hardpoints if it is being refuelled in-flight.

Howzat?


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## owais.usmani

Man you need to be at Lockheed Martin.

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## hj786

owais.usmani said:


> Man you need to be at Lockheed Martin.



Dude this is just a logical common-sense solution to the problem! Common sense is the 2nd best way to solve problems. The best way is lateral thinking, but I'm not so good at that lol. 
Lots of people will have thought of this and I have no doubt the above solution would have been implemented if there were no problems with the idea. 

What problems can you guys see with my solution?

The mounting points of the gun will be very strong to support the recoil when firing, so they will be strong enough to support an extendable refuelling probe.
The aerodynamics shouldnt be a problem, an IFR probe is probably more aerodynamic that 6 gun barrels anyway.

Only problem I can see is that it might be cheaper to buy a boom-refueller than implement this, but I don't think so - how hard can it be to swap a huge gun for an IFR probe?


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## owais.usmani

That was just a light hearted comment, don't take it seriously. I was not and cannot make fun of you people, you have much more knowledge than I do.

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## HAIDER

Its coming to Pak...


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## BATMAN

hj786 said:


> Dude this is just a logical common-sense solution to the problem! Common sense is the 2nd best way to solve problems. The best way is lateral thinking, but I'm not so good at that lol.


You are doing just fine... It is a quality to look for out of box and inovative solutions.

Ideas are the mother of invention.

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## hj786

owais.usmani said:


> That was just a light hearted comment, don't take it seriously. I was not and cannot make fun of you people, you have much more knowledge than I do.



Bro I didn't take any offence! My dream is to work at someplace like Lockheed Martin  (hopefully a Pakistani version of LM in the future lol.) 

HAIDER - Yup! (except PAF's aircraft will not have the squareish spine I think, so more like this one: http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a308/chriswr450/F-16BLK52Flight093_resize.jpg but with the same colours as PAF's old F-16s.) Here is a good video: YouTube - Lockheed Martin F-16 Promo

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## PAFAce

hj786 said:


> My dream is to work at someplace like Lockheed Martin



Working for LM is no big deal. You have to be an American citizen, have decent grades at a decent university and show that you are passionate about the aerospace and defence industries. I got an interview with them last year, but as a Canadian citizen I was not eligible for their government security clearances, so no job. I ended up interning with the Atomic Energy of Canada Limited instead.

After graduation, if I can't join the PAF, I'll want to work at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex or something related. I am originally from Wah, so I could also try the POF.

Sorry for going off topic a little bit, but I just wanted to let you know that LM is not the end of the world. Inshallah you will find something even better.

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## Luftwaffe

Awesome promo video! would like to see JF-17 promo video similar to this paid to westerns to shoot cuz we can`t make such promo videos in 100 years..


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## hj786

PAFAce said:


> Working for LM is no big deal. You have to be an American citizen, have decent grades at a decent university and show that you are passionate about the aerospace and defence industries. I got an interview with them last year, but as a Canadian citizen I was not eligible for their government security clearances, so no job. I ended up interning with the Atomic Energy of Canada Limited instead.
> 
> After graduation, if I can't join the PAF, I'll want to work at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex or something related. I am originally from Wah, so I could also try the POF.
> 
> Sorry for going off topic a little bit, but I just wanted to let you know that LM is not the end of the world. Inshallah you will find something even better.



Thanks bro, I don't really want to work for Lockheed Martin cos it is an American company, but I would like to work for some similar organisation famed for it's engineering capabilities, preferably in Pakistan (or perhaps China), where I can learn and contribute. Hopefully Pakistan will develop itself a lot over the next decade or so to make this possible for me.



> Had another idea.
> 
> Remove the F-16's 20mm gatling cannon, fit an extendable probe there. The probe can extend through the gun port and looking at the position of the gun, the probe system will be within reach of the fuel system's boom-refuelling connection point. Just connect them up, no need for a boom-refueller!
> 
> Of course, the problem is you either have no gun or you fit a gun pod to an external hardpoint.
> But the way I see it, they shouldn't use expensive F-16s as dog-fighters anyway. Use them as beyond-visual range AMRAAM launching platforms and let JF-17s go close-in with infra-red seeking missiles - JF-17's are far more expendable than F-16s, PAF can replace them by simply building a few more. Therefore, the F-16s wouldn't really need guns as they aren't gonna go in close very often and if they do, they have sidewinders and JHMCS. If they still need guns, use a gun pod - F-16 has no shortage of hardpoints if it is being refuelled in-flight.
> 
> Howzat?



So what do you guys think? Should the gun be sacrificed for extended range/loitering time?


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## Pk_Thunder

hj786,dude let me help u out in posting the pic!(this pic is from hj786)

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## TOPGUN

Pk_Thunder said:


> hj786,dude let me help u out in posting the pic!(this pic is from hj786)



Guys is this the airframe/shape our new f-16's will have??


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## Quwa

Yes.

http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item212653.html


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## TOPGUN

Mark Sien said:


> Yes.
> 
> http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item212653.html



Thx sir ! can't wait for these babies to come home!!


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## Arsalan

> Guys is this the airframe/shape our new f-16's will have??



what arnt they the block 60z, from where are we going to get them,,

which nersion is this exactly??


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## Patriot

We're getting Block 50/52.Block 60 is operated by 2 countries only so during sanctions time spares will be a huge problem!


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## mean_bird

saadahmed said:


> We're getting Block 50/52.Block 60 is operated by 2 countries only so during sanctions time spares will be a huge problem!



Block 60s are operated by UAE only AFAIK. which is the second country? Israel? though their F-16s are advanced but I am not sure they are block 60s.


Btw, whats the difference between blk 50 and 52 and what is blk52+? I have seen these terms used interchangeably so many times.


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## Arsalan

TOPGUN said:


> Guys is this the airframe/shape our new f-16's will have??



i mean sir if you can please ell us what is this plane, i thought we were going for upgrdes of our palne while the picture shows something which i take to be the F16 block 60. so please clarify it!


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## Arsalan

where and how are we getting this machine, it is not the upgraded Block 15 rather it is a completely new and latest F16 block 60 being used by UAE only so can anyone clarify please


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## mean_bird

arsalanaslam123 said:


> where and how are we getting this machine, it is not the upgraded Block 15 rather it is a completely new and latest F16 block 60 being used by UAE only so can anyone clarify please



It is the F-16 block 50/52+ and we are getting 18 of these planes (brand new ones). Block 15s are what we already have and they are going only MLUs.

check this out for the shape of block 52: http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item21977.html

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## Arsalan

oh so it is the same old deal once again!! the block 52z,,

but sir WHEN are we going to get them, isnt it the same deal that was postponed until 2010 but the US congress and then itt will be disscussed in 2010??


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## Arsalan

Advanced versions of the Block 50/52 F-16s are difficult to tell from previous F-16s, as most changes are internal. However, the two-seat models of the Advanced Block 50/52 and Block 60 are equipped with a dorsal avionics compartment that accommodates all of the systems of the single-seat model as well as some special mission equipment and additional chaff/flare dispensers. Most aircraft are procured wit Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFT) for extended range and mission endurance. The rear cockpit can be configured for either a weapon system operator or an instructor pilot and can be converted with a single switch in the cockpit. 

Advanced Engines
Advanced Block 50/52 aircraft have a common engine bay that allows customers a choice of engines in the 29,000-pound thrust class. The Block 50s and are powered by the General Electric F110-GE-129 and have the Modular Common Inlet Duct (known as the large mouth inlet). Block 60 aircraft (for the UAE) are fitted with GE F-110-GE-132 engine, a derivative of the F-110-GE-129 that is rated at 32,500 pounds of thrust. The Block 52s are powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 Improved performance Engine (IPE) which also has 29,000 pounds of thrust. The engine is configured with the Normal Shock Inlet (also known as the small mouth inlet). The aircraft is also equipped with an on-board oxygen-generating system replaces the liquid oxygen system of earlier versions to provide breathable air to the pilot. The system improves mission rate, maintainability, deployment flexibility and safety.

Targeting and Weapon Systems
For air/air missions, the aircraft is equipped with medium range missiles such as the AIM-120A AMRAAM. For close range combat, the aircraft can support the AIM-9X, IRIS-T, Python 4 and Python 5. The aircraft also retains the capability to use the six barrel 20mm Gatling gun. Block 52 configurations are also equipped with an advanced version of the APG-68 radar - the (V)9, while F-16E/F is fitted with the new APG-80 Active Electronic Scanning Array (AESA) system. These new radars have improved performance, higher processing speed and memory capacities and improved high-resolution synthetic aperture radar mode which allows the pilot to locate and recognize tactical ground targets from considerable distances. In conjunction with inertial aided weapons, the advanced F-16 gains an enhanced capability for all-weather precision strike from standoff distances. Modern F-16s of the advanced Block 50/52 can accommodate various targeting systems, including the Lockheed Martin Sniper XR/Pantera, and Northrop Grumman/RAFAEL Litening. These pods are used for target identification, acquisition and designation for smart, GPS guided munitions or laser guided bombs such as GBU-31 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM), the AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW), SPICE guided weapon, and CBU-103/104/105 Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD). The later can also be cued by target data provided directly from the radar, in low visibility conditions. On recce missions, advanced F-16s can also carry autonomous reconnaissance pods on the centerline, on intelligence gathering penetration or standoff sorties.

Navigation Systems
A navigation pod, such as LANTIRN/Pathfinder and digital terrain models are contributing to a safe, accurate low level flight. The aircraft is also equipped with various navigation systems such as tactical air navigation (TACAN), VHF omnidirectional receiver (VOR), distance measuring equipment (DME), and instrument landing system. An integrated precision navigation suite consisting of a ring laser gyro inertial navigation system (INS), global positioning system (GPS), and digital terrain system (DTS) are also standard. 

Cockpit Configurations
The standard configuration of an Advanced Block 50/52 cockpit features helmet-mounted cueing system, which allows the pilot to direct sensors or weapons to his line of sight or to help him find a designated target. Head-Up Display and several color multifunction displays and advanced recording and data-transfer equipment is used to reduce pilot workload in every phase of the mission. The cockpit is compatible with night vision goggles. A common configuration includes multi-channel VHF/UHF/HF/Data communications, satellite communication and tactical data link systems (such as the NATO-standard Link 16), in addition. Link 16 provides secure, jam-resistant, high-volume data exchange on a multi-node network. Also standard is the combined friend from foe interrogator/ transponder, which permits autonomous identification to maximize launch ranges of radar-guided air-to-air missiles at distances beyond visual range (BVR).


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## Owais

arsalanaslam123 said:


> oh so it is the same old deal once again!! the block 52z,,
> 
> but sir WHEN are we going to get them, isnt it the same deal that was postponed until 2010 but the US congress and then itt will be disscussed in 2010??



we will be getting them in 2010 and we have an option to buy 18 more.


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## Arsalan

these are more advanced version of block 52 as i have read through many articles. currently the greel airforce are usin 60 of these machines with an additional 30 on order. it is only slightly different from the block 60 as they were made for the UAE airforce so have some changes.

but still the question is how are we going to get these latest equipment and when, actuall with all respect, i am sorry but i do not beleive that this is going to happen. 

we must concentrate more on the JF17 and J10 rather thatn looking forward to the always lair americans


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## chirag.s

hi guys just wanna ask a question 
i recently read in the book UNCOVERING THE LOCKHEED MARTIN F-16 basically a scale modelling book that f-16s have RAM coating near the flaps and the stabilizers what about the new babes  you are getting may be sir murad can help me. 

thank you


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## PAFAce

arsalanaslam123 said:


> with all respect, i am sorry but i do not beleive that this is going to happen.



I hate to admit this, but that is a possibility. Pakistan, I have always maintained, has been a *strategically located* _ally_ for the US on many occasions, with more emphasis on the first two words than the last. Therefore, if the war in Afghanistan suddenly ended for the Americans today, and they don't need us anymore, there will be no reason for them to go ahead with any sales.

It has happened before. In 1990 with the Pressler Amendment and again in 1998 with the Glenn Ammendment. They even stopped the Swedes from selling us the JAS-39 Grippen, because it contains 20% American parts!

However, I cannot emphasize this enough, the PAF is ready for that this time. We have alternate arrangements with the Chinese, the FC-20, and surely have other (secret) backup plans as well. Our CAS has said this many times. _The Americans do not want to repeat past mistakes, but if they do, we are prepared this time._

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## Arsalan

PAFAce said:


> I hate to admit this, but that is a possibility. Pakistan, I have always maintained, has been a *strategically located* _ally_ for the US on many occasions, with more emphasis on the first two words than the last. Therefore, if the war in Afghanistan suddenly ended for the Americans today, and they don't need us anymore, there will be no reason for them to go ahead with any sales.
> 
> It has happened before. In 1990 with the Pressler Amendment and again in 1998 with the Glenn Ammendment. They even stopped the Swedes from selling us the JAS-39 Grippen, because it contains 20% American parts!
> 
> However, I cannot emphasize this enough, the PAF is ready for that this time. We have alternate arrangements with the Chinese, the FC-20, and surely have other (secret) backup plans as well. Our CAS has said this many times. _The Americans do not want to repeat past mistakes, but if they do, we are prepared this time._



sadly enough, but have to agree with all this


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## Arsalan

Owais said:


> we will be getting them in 2010 and we have an option to buy 18 more.




with all respect sir i want some clarification sir

it is the deal which was to be finalize last year i-e in 2008 but the US congress postponed it for FURTHER CONSIDERATION till 2010. many people take it to be misleading, considering the deliveries of the plane to start by 2010 which in not the case. in fact it will be again bring into congress consideration in 2010.

lately in 2008 the bill was refuced or rejected by caliming that these planes will be used against india rather than the terrorists.


so my point is that we Cannot relay on US option as we can not say that we will get these planes with 100% surety


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## mean_bird

arsalanaslam123 said:


> with all respect sir i want some clarification sir
> 
> it is the deal which was to be finalize last year i-e in 2008 but the US congress postponed it for FURTHER CONSIDERATION till 2010. many people take it to be misleading, considering the deliveries of the plane to start by 2010 which in not the case. in fact it will be again bring into congress consideration in 2010.
> 
> lately in 2008 the bill was refuced or rejected by caliming that these planes will be used against india rather than the terrorists.
> 
> 
> so my point is that we Cannot relay on US option as we can not say that we will get these planes with 100% surety




No!

To the best of my knowledge, the new F-16s that we are buying have no such constraints. They will be 'delivered' in 2010-11.

What is yet to be passed by the US congress is that we are getting the used F-16s with MLUs through the FMF (foreign military funding). That has to be Oked by the US congress because they are part of the 3-yr US$ 1.5 billion give to pakistan.

Here's the interview that should make things quite clear.

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## mean_bird

PAFAce said:


> It has happened before. In 1990 with the Pressler Amendment and again in 1998 with the Glenn Ammendment. *They even stopped the Swedes from selling us the JAS-39 Grippen, because it contains 20% American parts!
> *



Did they? 

AFAIK, PAF didn't buy Grippen because

1. They were costly
2. They aren't multi-role fighters that fulfilled PAF's requirement
3. There were chances of US blocking it in times of difficulties.

I don't think they blocked it but we didnt buy just to be on the safe side (and because of the other mentioned reasons).


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## blain2

hj786 said:


> Thanks bro, I don't really want to work for Lockheed Martin cos it is an American company, but I would like to work for some similar organisation famed for it's engineering capabilities, preferably in Pakistan (or perhaps China), where I can learn and contribute. Hopefully Pakistan will develop itself a lot over the next decade or so to make this possible for me.
> 
> 
> 
> So what do you guys think? Should the gun be sacrificed for extended range/loitering time?



Gun should not be sacrificed for anything. This is the only thing which works as close to 99% of the availability as possible.

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## blain2

mean_bird said:


> Did they?
> 
> AFAIK, PAF didn't buy Grippen because
> 
> 1. They were costly
> 2. They aren't multi-role fighters that fulfilled PAF's requirement
> 3. There were chances of US blocking it in times of difficulties.
> 
> I don't think they blocked it but we didnt buy just to be on the safe side (and because of the other mentioned reasons).



The problem was #3. The US was not allowing the export of Gripen to Pakistan even when the Swedish government approached the USG (due to the GE engines and other avionics of US origin integrated). The aircraft (even the non-GripenNG version) is a capable MR platform and is very cost effective.

Once the relations with the US normalized, the F-16 tap opened up again and at that point, the newer variants of the F-16 (blk-52s) made much better sense for us to induct due to our familiarity with the system than have to bother with inducting a totally new type. In other words, the Gripen was an alternate along with the Mirage 2000 to the F-16s.

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## chirag.s

guys please lets stick to the topic those videos can go t the multimedia thread none of you have answered my query about the RAM coating is it also included or the cream still remains with USAF ???

SORRY blain2 BUT BIENG A MOD YOU SHOULDN'T GO OFF TOPIC PLEASE...

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## PAFAce

mean_bird said:


> AFAIK, PAF didn't buy Grippen because
> 
> 1. They were costly
> 2. They aren't multi-role fighters that fulfilled PAF's requirement
> 3. There were chances of US blocking it in times of difficulties.



Blain2 is correct. In _The Story of the PAF_ it is said that both the Swedes and the Pakistanis were very happy with the deal, however, since there were US parts involved, the Swede govt. approached the USG for approval. They were told that the Swedes were not allowed sell any US parts to any country affected by the Pressler Amendment.

Refer to The Story of the PAF for more details.

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## mean_bird

PAFAce said:


> Blain2 is correct. In _The Story of the PAF_ it is said that both the Swedes and the Pakistanis were very happy with the deal, however, since there were US parts involved, the Swede govt. approached the USG for approval. They were told that the Swedes were not allowed sell any US parts to any country affected by the Pressler Amendment.
> 
> Refer to The Story of the PAF for more details.



I was basing my argument on an earlier ACM interview where he stated that the Grippen wasn't a multi-role fighter.

Anyway, where can I get my hand on "The Story of PAF"? Anyone got a PDF copy?


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## PAFAce

mean_bird said:


> I was basing my argument on an earlier ACM interview where he stated that the Grippen wasn't a multi-role fighter.
> 
> Anyway, where can I get my hand on "The Story of PAF"? Anyone got a PDF copy?



Before you read The Story of PAF, you should read The History of PAF. I was thinking of starting a thread on this topic. The books every PAF and aviation fan must read. It would be a delightful change from the usual hot/controversial topics we have here.

I go to the University of Toronto, so I have at my disposal over 50 libraries in the city, including the 3rd largest library in North America (largest in Canada). So anytime I need a book, I just go there. If they don't have it, I submit an application and they usually get it within 2 months. I am quite lucky that way, because I realise there are things available to me that people dream of elsewhere.

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## hj786

Anybody know whats happening with the F-16 MLUs? 
I read on another forum (link http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=46781&page=4) that there is a delay with US congress clearing the deal - MLUed F-16s won't arrive until block 52s arrive, sometime in 2010/2011. The same guy also said the situation is the same with AMRAAMs - none have been delivered yet as congress has not cleared the sale, and even if they are cleared PAF's F-16s can't fire them right now. According to F-16.net they can, but he says that source is out of date anyway.

Can anybody confirm whats going on?


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## Arsalan

*sorry for being off the topic*

kindly do visit:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/20716-surface-air-missile.html

and share you knowledge

thankyou for your co-operation


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## Pk_Thunder

*F-16 Still Competitive in Fighter Market *​

14:55 GMT, February 1, 2009 NEWTOWN, Conn. | The Lockheed Martin F-16 has been continually upgraded since production began decades ago, and the latest Block 50/52 and Block 60/E/F variants remain highly capable and affordable multirole fighters.

Lockheed Martin received an order from Morocco at the end of 2007, snatching the 24-aircraft order away from Dassault's Rafale in a last minute effort. Lockheed Martin is able to be aggressive on pricing the F-16, and as in prior years the purchase of F-16s is one way of increasing a nations ties with the American defense establishment.

Other recent customers include Turkey, which executed a Letter of Offer and Acceptance for 30 aircraft during 2007 (consisting of 14 single-seat C models and 16 two-seat Ds). The Turkish aircraft will be assembled and delivered by TUSAS beginning in 2011. The new aircraft will replace about half the TuAF's elderly F-4 fleet in the near term as the service waits for the new Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II to arrive on the scene.

Greece ordered 30-unit Block 52+ F-16s in December 2005, but the Greek government later announced that it would not be exercising a 10-aircraft option under the deal and would be looking elsewhere to fill an ongoing requirement for another 30 fighters.
*
The Pakistani Air Force has ordered 18 new fighters through the Pentagon's Foreign Military Sales program at the end of 2007. The order is part of a bigger deal to upgrade the PAF's existing fleet of A/B model F-16s. Pakistan took an option to purchase an additional 18 fighters under the deal. Pakistan may exercise these options, but funding the purchase will be difficult at the same time the PAF is purchasing large numbers of Chengdu FC-1s. Ongoing political turmoil in the country could also cause further deliveries of F-16s to be blocked by the U.S. government.*

Israel noted back in mid-2005 that it was considering additional purchases F-16 fighters if the F-35 program were to suffer further delays. Israel has also made noises about cutting its requirement for F-35s than expected.

Taiwan has long been expected to order 66 F-16s as part of an effort to recapitalize a portion of its fighter fleet, but domestic political wrangling has held up the process, along with the Bush administration's seeming ambivalence to the deal. Washington is currently looking to China to cooperate on a number of security issues, including efforts to end the nuclear threat posed by North Korea. The Taiwanese Air Force's plan to order 66 new F-16s will likely never reach fruition.

The F-16 also is in the running for a potentially huge order by the Indian Air Force, which issued a long-awaited Request for Proposals in August 2007 to fill a requirement for 126-200 new multirole fighters. The Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft program is intended to replace many of the service's elderly MiG-21s. Competing against the F-16 are the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the Dassault Rafale, the MiG-35, and the Saab Gripen. Among the Western-built aircraft, the F-16 and Gripen are single-engined fighters that provide a low-cost alternative to the heavier, twin-engined Super Hornet and Rafale. The MiG-35 is a follow-on to the MiG-29, which is already in service with the IAF.

The RFP was not made available to the public, and it is not clear from the outside what factors the IAF considers most important in selecting a new fighter. In making its selection, India can be expected to be wary of offending long-time supplier Russia, but the nation is currently in a period of warming relations with the U.S. government, and U.S. recognition of India's right to develop its nuclear facilities may be rewarded by a large aircraft purchase.

Elsewhere, Lockheed Martin notes that several customers are showing high interest in the F-16E/F (formerly the Block 60 model developed for the United Arab Emirates), but many nations that would offer the best prospects for a new order are the same nations Lockheed Martin believes will be drawn to the F-35.

The F-35 was designed with the idea of supplanting the F-16 as the pre-eminent affordable multirole fighter in the western and Asian defense markets. Looking ahead, and Lockheed Martin may find itself in the same position as Dassault when the latter was offering customers both the Mirage 2000 and Rafale at the same time. Offering two aircraft that compete against each other may become an undesirable position for Lockheed Martin, or the F-16 may continue to be offered to customers that cannot afford the expected higher cost of the F-35.

Forecast International's projections call for production of the F-16 out to 2016, but additional orders could well extend production out several more years.

Eastern Europe has shown an affinity for cheap, single-engine fighters in recent years as countries in the region look to meet NATO responsibilities without breaking their limited defense budgets. Romania and Bulgaria is reported to be interested in acquiring 16 fighters, and the F-16 and Gripen are prime contenders for orders from these nations. Romania is looking for 48 fighters to replace 100 MiG-21s in its inventory. Funding is an obstacle, however. The near-term costs of the acquisition could be reduced by purchasing a mixture of new and refurbished aircraft or signing a lease deal.

The continuing interest in Lockheed Martin's F-16 is keeping GE and Pratt & Whitney busy building F110 and F100 engines for export orders, while both companies are developing engines for 5th generation fighters like the F-22 and F-35.

Overall, production during the 2009-2018 forecast period is projected to total 215 aircraft.


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## mean_bird

Does anyone has the timetable for planes the for PAF, both the new ones and the upgraded ones?


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## chirag.s

everyone here is just waiting when f-16s are gonna land guys they will come very soon please answer my queries 

are your birds coming with radar Absorbent Material coating near the flaps and ailerons ???? 

who can answer my question


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## dbc

Kharian_Beast said:


> I think we should, if only the Americans are willing to prove that they are a reliable and friendly source. It should be a give and take relationship, but due to their current actions involving the WoT, much can be argued against American weaponry at the same time.


Sorry a bit off topic..
How can we prove our friendship? Free F-16's, largest trade partner and largest donor. What else will it take? I agree drone attacks needs to stop ASAP. I was hoping it would once Bush left the White House .. I still have faith in Obama.. 

Pressler Amendment is a US law that was broken by Pakistan so we had no choice but to stop the delivery of F-16's is this the only source of your mistrust? Or is it deeper than that, didn't the US give Pakistan the latest and greatest arms in the 60's and 70's that allowed the PAF to dominate previous wars with India? Didn't the US send a fleet in defense of Pakistan?


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## PurpleButcher

As a matter of fact man , U.S. betrayed us in 1971 war with india....we just kept waiting for your fleet to arrive which never came....

will u consider any country your frined if on a daily basis it kills ur country men and then give ur puppet leaders millions of dollars in the name of economic aid and blah blah???

and will u consider us as ur frineds if we offer more advanced technologies to ur enemies???


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## MastanKhan

PurpleButcher said:


> As a matter of fact man , U.S. betrayed us in 1971 war with india....we just kept waiting for your fleet to arrive which never came....
> 
> will u consider any country your frined if on a daily basis it kills ur country men and then give ur puppet leaders millions of dollars in the name of economic aid and blah blah???
> 
> and will u consider us as ur frineds if we offer more advanced technologies to ur enemies???




Hello,

U S didnot betray us in the 1971 war---it realized that it was an in-house problem with TWO BROTHERS. For that reason it stepped back ----wisely so.

But later on Nixon is known to have stated that if india attacked the west wing---it could be nuked. That was something to think about for india.

Now for friends---if you claim firendship---then you have to act like friends---and not let al qaeda hide in the backyard---friednship is a two way street.


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## dbc

PurpleButcher said:


> As a matter of fact man , U.S. betrayed us in 1971 war with india....we just kept waiting for your fleet to arrive which never came....
> 
> will u consider any country your frined if on a daily basis it kills ur country men and then give ur puppet leaders millions of dollars in the name of economic aid and blah blah???
> 
> and will u consider us as ur frineds if we offer more advanced technologies to ur enemies???



The US documents of the 1971 war with India is now unclassified. By the time USS Enterprise reached the Bay of Bengal East Pakistan had fallen into Indian hands. The US engaged its armed forces in the defense of Pakistan at a time when anti-war sentiments were at its peak due to the Vietnam war. 

Nixon urged China to send troops to India's western border, the Chinese refused despite US assurances that it would protect China from the USSR and yet you trust China implicitly. 
As for the drone attacks, it cannot be justified against any sovereign nation especially against an ally like Pakistan. But the reality is our government is unable to explain to our people why they are not able to capture or kill the very people that committed the worst act of terrorism in our history. And also why these terrorist roam free within the borders of our closet ally?
As for the nuclear deal and weapons for India, try and understand this if you can. We need some leverage over India. Not just for US interest but also to prevent a nuclear war in the most populated region in the world and for the future security and prosperity of Pakistan. In protection of Pakistan, the US cannot commit its military in large enough numbers to offset the numerical advantage the Indians have. The only other option is to exert influence as a friend, make sure India has a stake in good relations with the US and thus prevent a war between India and Pakistan. Do you really think India backed down from a war with Pakistan over the Mumbai incident because they were afraid of Pakistan's military? They backed down because we did not permit it.

Sorry I did not mean to hijack the thread on F-16s but I can't take any more BS on my country being evil.not to be trusted


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## PAFAce

I.Come.In.Peace said:


> Do you really think India backed down from a war with Pakistan over the Mumbai incident because they were afraid of Pakistan's military?



As a matter of fact, I do. Not because we are supermen, but because they had more to lose in a war. The Indians are not stupid, they do not want unnecessary wars (or at least I hope they dont).



> I can't take any more BS on my country being evil.not to be trusted



I can respect that, as a patriot. However, imagine what we feel when your senior politicans call us 'the most dangerous country in the world' and talk about strikes within our territory. 

There was a study done some time ago by American or Canadian pschologists that stated that the reason a lot of young African Americans from lower-middleclass families chose to get involved with gangs was because everyone already assumed they were. The same is true for Pakistan. If you consistently threaten our sovereignty and call us the most dangerous country in the world, we will act like one.

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## notorious_eagle

American and Pakistani relationship is as complex as anything can get, but i think everyone knows that sooner or later the relationship will cool off and both countries will go their seperate ways. Right now, the US is heavily reliant on Pakistan for its war on terror. Personally; i was completely against this war on terror but after seeing what these a** holes are doing in Swat and constant suicide bombings in my country, we have no choice but to defeat them. If these drone strikes are killing high profiled targets, than i guess they can be justified but majority of the times they end up killing civilians enraging many Pakistanis.

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## ejaz007

Lets keep this thread to F-16 related issues and discuss US Pakistan relations in another thread.

I Come in Peace kinldy introduce yourself, if you have not already done so in members introduction section.


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## dbc

ejaz007 said:


> Lets keep this thread to F-16 related issues and discuss US Pakistan relations in another thread.
> 
> I Come in Peace kinldy introduce yourself, if you have not already done so in members introduction section.



Sorry I don't know much about F-16's other than it looks wicked cool - if only it came in passion pink. I did introduce myself but I can't make the avatar thing work .. is there a thread for that? I'm just messing with you..

The Chinese flag and the Pakistan flag  looks way cooler than my flag


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## ejaz007

F-16 apart from being a good weapon system has unfortunately become a matter of pride for the Pakistanis and they cant resist posting comments on threads related to F-16's. We already have a number of threads where F-16 is being discussed one way or the other.

Knowledge is not the criteria for posting about F-16. Nothing has prevented those members from posting then what are you waiting for.


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## dbc

ejaz007 said:


> F-16 apart from being a good weapon system has unfortunately become a matter of pride for the Pakistanis and they cant resist posting comments on threads related to F-16's. We already have a number of threads where F-16 is being discussed one way or the other.
> 
> Knowledge is not the criteria for posting about F-16. Nothing has prevented those members from posting then what are you waiting for.



Pride in a weapon is something I can never relate to sure the F-22 Raptor is the greatest thing since sliced bread - so what? I felt pride in what my country did in Serbia and Kuwait. Thanks to Bush we have lost our moral standing in the world community, regretable but I hope we can recover.

Sorry I digress, back to the F-16 someone answer chirag.s 


chirag.s said:


> everyone here is just waiting when f-16s are gonna land guys they will come very soon please answer my queries
> 
> are your birds coming with radar Absorbent Material coating near the flaps and ailerons ????
> 
> who can answer my question


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## Omar1984

I.Come.In.Peace said:


> The Chinese flag and the Pakistan flag  looks way cooler than my flag



I also noticed that 

Well atleast U.S. has a flag, some of Pakistan's other close allies dont even have a flag on this forum like Saudi Arabia and Turkey


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## duhastmish

I.Come.In.Peace said:


> Sorry I don't know much about F-16's other than it looks wicked cool - if only it came in passion pink. I did introduce myself but I can't make the avatar thing work .. is there a thread for that? I'm just messing with you..
> 
> The Chinese flag and the Pakistan flag  looks way cooler than my flag



BE Happy and feel marry. 
At least you got a flag (Flintstones rock flag) India got no flag here - hehehehe


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## Rafael

^^^once the realations get back to normal, I'll request the mods to add indian flag as well.... lol.....

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## duhastmish

sir, 

F-16 are amazing fighter but the only problem is that us of A will start decommissioning them from 2020. And replace with f-22 by then the f-16 will become obslete frame. yes for Pakistan they have j-10 and jf-17 and other future programme but at a general level f-16 won't be their main weapon.


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## chirag.s

duhastmish said:


> sir,
> 
> F-16 are amazing fighter but the only problem is that us of A will start decommissioning them from 2020. And replace with f-22 by then the f-16 will become obslete frame. yes for Pakistan they have j-10 and jf-17 and other future programme but at a general level f-16 won't be their main weapon.




US has more than 1000 f-16s they will start replacing after f-35 becomes operational and thats gonna take them beyond 2025 and by 2030 there wont be a single f-16 in their main operational squadrons...

any views ??


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## Arsalan

can anyone please tell us about the MLUz, are there any planes currently undergoing MLU or upgradation from Turkey??

when is this project going to start and how long it may take. what is more important is that when will it be started.??

i will really appreciate any guidance in this regard

thankyou!


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## was




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## was




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## was




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## Arsalan

arsalanaslam123 said:


> can anyone please tell us about the MLUz, are there any planes currently undergoing MLU or upgradation from Turkey??
> 
> when is this project going to start and how long it may take. what is more important is that when will it be started.??
> 
> i will really appreciate any guidance in this regard
> 
> thankyou!



sir i know that this point may have been discussed earlier but sorry if i missed it,,
can anyone kindly help me about the CURRENT status of the MLUz actually the Turkish upgrades were stated to start somewhere in 2009 so whats going on!!


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## Arsalan

sorry for my ignorance but i am yet unavle to get the point,,

the MLU from US and the Turkish upgrades where two different projects, will the same plane receive both upgrades or will it be distributed into two batches, one may also think that the Turkish upgrades may be a back-up in case we face some problems from US side,

can anyone please clarify this point,

thankyou!


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## ejaz007

*'Father' of F-16 Dies at Age 89*
Staff report 
Published: 10 Feb 15:28 EST (20:28 GMT)

The man known as the father of the F-16 and a founding member of the "fighter mafia" is dead.

Aircraft designer Harry J. Hillaker died Feb. 8 at his home in Fort Worth, Texas. He was 89.

Hillaker spent 44 years with U.S. contractor General Dynamics, where he was a point man for designing the F-16. General Dynamics and Lockheed Martin have delivered more than 4,400 F-16s to air forces around the world.

In a 1991 interview with Code One Magazine, Hillaker recalled how believers in a lightweight fighter became known as the fighter mafia.

"That was the title given to the small group of people responsible for the conceptual design of the lightweight fighter, what became the F-16," Hillaker said. "The group had three core members: John Boyd, Pierre Sprey and me. We were given the 'mafia' title by people in the Air Force back in the mid-'60s. We were viewed as an underground group that was challenging the establishment. We were a threat of sorts."

At the time, the U.S. Air Force was focused on fielding the F-15 Eagle. Development efforts for what became the F-16 were low key.

Hillaker wanted a plane that achieved speed and range by being small and more efficient than the much larger F15. 

"If we wanted to fly faster, we made the drag lower by reducing size and adjusting the configuration itself. If we wanted greater range, we made the plane more efficient, more compact," Hillaker said.

Hillaker was born in Flint, Mich., and attended the University of Michigan. In 1941, he went to work with Consolidated Aircraft in San Diego, Calif., and a year later was assigned to the firm's Fort Worth plant.

Consolidated became General Dynamics, where Hillaker had a hand in several major projects, from the B-36 to the F-16. He retired in 1985, but continued to work with the U.S. Air Force and aviation groups.

'Father' of F-16 Dies at Age 89 - Defense News


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## Zob

can somebody please answer Arsalan's question... i am curious as well now how can we talk about MLUs from the US and TURKEY at the same time....and will the MLUs be the same better or worse....?


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## Munir

Turkey just assembles the parts... It does not matter whether you buy labour in Turkey or elsewhere as long as they do the same. Which is pretty logical cause no one is allowed to alter the design which will be tested on the first PAF f16's in USA at the moment...

Take the radar... Do ou think Turkey will build the the radar? Nopes They will get it from Lockheed and assemble it into the F16...


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## Manticore

1]which mlu package are we taking? will the block15 be equal to block40 or 50+?
2]also will be having the new pw229 enjine or keep the old pw100?

.
4mlu from usa.. all other in kamra by turkey]


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## shehbazi2001

Munir said:


> Turkey just assembles the parts... It does not matter whether you buy labour in Turkey or elsewhere as long as they do the same. Which is pretty logical cause no one is allowed to alter the design which will be tested on the first PAF f16's in USA at the moment...
> 
> Take the radar... Do ou think Turkey will build the the radar? Nopes They will get it from Lockheed and assemble it into the F16...



Actually for the radar, even Lockheed gets it from Northrop Grumman and installs it in F-16. Radars for F-16, APG-66 and new APG-68 are made by Northrop Grumman (formerly Westinghouse).


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## hasang20

we should be more concern about our JF-17s block II rather than handfull of F-16s.


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## Zob

if turkey just assembles these parts then why don't we cut our costs and try and assemble them in Kamra....?? don't we have the technical know how due to Mirage upgrades and now the JF-17 assembly..?


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## mean_bird

Zob said:


> if turkey just assembles these parts then why don't we cut our costs and try and assemble them in Kamra....?? don't we have the technical know how due to Mirage upgrades and now the JF-17 assembly..?



You think it would be worth it to create a whole new assembly plant for what...just 18 planes? and that too assuming LM is willing to agree on that which they won't.


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## Munir

mean_bird said:


> You think it would be worth it to create a whole new assembly plant for what...just 18 planes? and that too assuming LM is willing to agree on that which they won't.



Indeed. It is all about numbers and cost of labour... Buying a few hundreds cars is a lot cheaper then trying to setup a plant to assemble them... Unless you think about a few hundred thousands... With planes the break even point is well above 500. Europe formed a team to share the costs of developing, assembling and testing. We are not going to upgrade... We just a few...


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## mean_bird

Interesting read



> *Could the Aero India F-16s bomb India in a war?*
> 
> As the F-16 fighter roars into the skies of Bengaluru at the Aero India 09 show, all attention is on the wonderful aerobatics display it puts up, not on the tiny flag of the United Arab Emirates (UAE) on its tail. But the fact is, two of the four F-16s brought here by Lockheed Martin belong to the UAE Air Force.
> 
> Two intriguing questions immediately arise: Firstly, were these aircraft flown, perhaps just days ago, by combat pilots from the Pakistani Air Force (PAF), which has long sent its officers on deputation to fly UAE fighters? Would these very aircraft, now here on a sales pitch by Lockheed Martin, have been bombing India in the event of a war with Pakistan?
> 
> Senior Indian Air Force (IAF) officers have confirmed to Business Standard that, in any war with India, Pakistan could field up to two squadrons of F-16 aircraft borrowed from Arab nations, where its pilots are posted on deputation.
> 
> Air Commodore Jasjit Singh, who won a Vir Chakra in combat in 1971 and went on to head the Institute for Defence Studies and Analysis, points out, This has happened regularly. In 1965, the Jordanian Air Force supplied F-104 Starfighters to Pakistan, one of which was even shot down by the IAF. In 1971, Turkey and Iran had supplied F-86 Sabres to the PAF. I wouldnt rule out a repeat of this kind of help.
> 
> Air Marshal Vinod Patney, the top air force field commander during the Kargil conflict, also believes the UAE Air Force F-16s could be used against India.
> 
> He reasons, There are Pakistani pilots there in the UAE: fact. They are flying their F-16s: fact. There is a close military relationship between those countries: fact. I would not rule out Islamic solidarity coming into play in the event of a war with India.
> 
> Clearly visible on the UAE Air Force F-16s on display in Bangalore is an extra fuel tank, just above the wing, specially built for the batch of F-16s ordered by the UAE. The IAF believes UAE asked Lockheed Martin for the extra range to allow the Pakistani pilots in the UAE to reach Indian targets, deliver their weapons, and then fly to a Pakistani base from where they could operate for the rest of the war.
> 
> Air Chief Marshal SC Tyagi, the IAF chief until 2007, recounts, In the Arab-Israeli war in 1967, Pakistani pilots even flew Jordanian and Iraqi fighter aircraft in combat missions against the Israeli Air Force. One Bengali pilot from East Pakistan shot down two Israeli Mystere jets during that war. There was an agreement to help each other. But the world has moved on; its an open question whether such an agreement exists today.
> 
> Lockheed Martin told Business Standard that they had no idea whether Pakistani pilots had recently flown the F-16s, now in Bangalore. Douglas Hartwick, CEO of Lockheed Martin India Pvt Ltd explained, We just leased these planes from the UAE Air Force.
> 
> Indias strategic community is concerned about F-16 aircraft being evaluated by India despite their being in service in Pakistan. Air Chief Marshal Fali Major, the air force chief, told a press conference at the Aero India that he was not concerned, as the IAF would equip the fighters that they bought (even if they were F-16s) very differently from the PAF, and use home-grown tactics while flying them. But when pressed on the issue he admitted, I am not happy that someone else has something that I have. But thats the way the world works.
> 
> Could the Aero India F-16s bomb India in a war?

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## hasang20

mean_bird said:


> Interesting read



very intersting read PAF has access to all Muslims countries airspace if Israel wanted to start of war with Pakistan = no more Israel ; incase of war between Pakistan and US = Form of a big allience between Muslim countries like UAE,Pakistan,Iran and Turkey ; Pakistan Vs India help from KSA,UAE,China and even Iran will try to improve thier releationship with Pakistan ; Pakistan Launching Nukes to Atlantic = Distrupt of waterlines and Global Warming America will freeze to death.


WAR WITH PAKISTAN IS LIKE A SUCIDE MISSION


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## Zob

My friend i live in the UAE and i can assure u that they hate us more than the INDIANS hate us....that is the problem of the muslim world arabs argue amongst themselves and we we r ajaams to them we r not even equal to them as muslims in there eyes......so it is just paranoia that they will ever help us in war and UAE will never help us i guarantee my left nut if they ever help us Saudi might!! AND IF IT IS HELP WHY DIDN'T ANY MUSLIM HELP THE GAZA PALESTANIANS FOR 22DAYS all muslims did was CONDEMN...CONDEMN.CONDEMN...thats all what we do for each other!!!!!!! so please stop thinking anyone is coming for help help urself and god will help u!!!

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## PAFAce

> hassang20: very intersting read PAF has access to all Muslims countries airspace if Israel wanted to start of war with Pakistan = no more Israel ; incase of war between Pakistan and US = Form of a big allience between Muslim countries like UAE,Pakistan,Iran and Turkey ; Pakistan Vs India help from KSA,UAE,China and even Iran will try to improve thier releationship with Pakistan ; Pakistan Launching Nukes to Atlantic = Distrupt of waterlines and Global Warming America will freeze to death.





> Zob: My friend i live in the UAE and i can assure u that they hate us more than the INDIANS hate us....that is the problem of the muslim world arabs argue amongst themselves and we we r ajaams to them we r not even equal to them as muslims in there eyes......so it is just paranoia that they will ever help us in war and UAE will never help us i guarantee my left nut if they ever help us Saudi might!! AND IF IT IS HELP WHY DIDN'T ANY MUSLIM HELP THE GAZA PALESTANIANS FOR 22DAYS all muslims did was CONDEMN...CONDEMN.CONDEMN...thats all what we do for each other!!!!!!! so please stop thinking anyone is coming for help help urself and god will help u!!!



Two extremes, and the truth is somewhere in between. 

I do not expect any countries to help us in case of war, particularly KSA, UAE etc. They are too heavily dependent on the West, even for military and defence (top UAE pilots come to Canada for NATO and Allied pilot training, all their equipment is American and European). Realistically, China may help with military hardware and Iran with some verbal support, but that's about it. We must be prepared to fight all our battles on our own. The idea of a 'One Muslim Nation', as beautiful as it sounds, does not exist today.

On the other hand, I know that Pakistanis aren't exactly treated like the locals in the UAE, and I have always hated them for that, but to think that there are no Muslims there that will at least _try_ to help Pakistan is not a sure thing (I've lived there for 13 years too). We have provided them with a lot in terms of defence. They have always had the money, but they were/are very havily reliant on foreigners for training and support. Their defence depends quite heavily on Pakistani cooperation, and it is even part of their large-scale strategic thinking that in case of any offence from a mutually un-friendly country, the Pakistani Armed Forces will get directly lead the defence of UAE and/or KSA (in case of KSA, if the strikes are anywhere near Makkah and Madina, we will have little choice but to take charge). Their biggest contribution to Pakistan in times of war, however, will not be planes or pilots (as we have both) but a constant flow of oil and maybe finances. But this too, I'm afraid, is too much to expect in times like these. Divide and conquer is the name of the game, and the West is very good at it.

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## hj786

Good article mean_bird, thanks for finding and posting it. The IAF themselves say "Fact: PAF pilots are flying some of the very latest combat aircraft", yet there are kids coming here trying to convince people that "PAF only flies old out-dated planes so they do not know how to use the latest tactics and (BVR) weapons". 

PAFAce great post. In war, Pakistan should make a realistic appraisal of the situation such as yours, rather than hope a bunch of uppity Arabs will come to her aid.

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## Munir

The arabs have the latest toys just because to keep them happy and to balance the cash flow. They will not provide us anything. I think ZOB points it out pretty realistic. If the arabs were thaqt nice then the musims would be in a lot better position. They see us as lower grade. And some are stupid enough to accept that.

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## araz

It is only Pakistani people that think along these lines. As far as my understanding goes, Pakistani Armed forces are very clear in what their objectives would be in case of war and who would help us. We may still send requests out, but the chances of getting anything substantial is minimal. we should there fore look towards self reliance in all aspects. If we dont expect anything from anyone,we will not be disappointed.
WaSalam
Araz

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## IceCold

araz said:


> It is only Pakistani people that think along these lines. As far as my understanding goes, Pakistani Armed forces are very clear in what their objectives would be in case of war and who would help us. We may still send requests out, but the chances of getting anything substantial is minimal. we should there fore look towards self reliance in all aspects. If we dont expect anything from anyone,we will not be disappointed.
> WaSalam
> Araz



You couldn't be more right then this sir. 100% spot on. The problem as witnessed by many and on this forum is that Pakistanis attach unnecessary expectations, specially with countries such as China, most believe in Ummah and what not. This is high time we realize collectively as a Nation that these large expectations will lead nowhere other then to a huge disappointment and loss. 
We need to stand up and face our own monsters, no one is going to face them for us, be it China or SA or perhaps UAE.

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## Jihad

Zob said:


> My friend i live in the UAE and i can assure u that they hate us more than the INDIANS hate us....that is the problem of the muslim world arabs argue amongst themselves and we we r ajaams to them we r not even equal to them as muslims in there eyes......so it is just paranoia that they will ever help us in war and UAE will never help us i guarantee my left nut if they ever help us Saudi might!! AND IF IT IS HELP WHY DIDN'T ANY MUSLIM HELP THE GAZA PALESTANIANS FOR 22DAYS all muslims did was CONDEMN...CONDEMN.CONDEMN...thats all what we do for each other!!!!!!! so please stop thinking anyone is coming for help help urself and god will help u!!!



Well they can suck my lollipop over there, I couldn't care less how low we are for them.
I can however confirm your story, a friend of mine who used to work as security guard in the store I worked was in UAE in the past and had worked as entrance guard in local disco's and clubs.
He once told me that there was this Arabian guy with the clothing and all, and people were waiting in some kind of line, and this person simply walked infront and ignored the waiting line, when my friend told him that he had to wait and go back, he simply said something like, "and who are you to tell me that I must go back etc.", all in all, he had a very big mouth, and thought that he was really something, so my friend, he's pretty big, fat and huge, he took him by his collar and dragged him out of the club and threw him outside.

He told me everyone was shocked by that because no one actually dares to touch or talk down to these "elite" duds or whatever.
Ohwell, great story, and I laughed real hard, because this is the way how you deal with scumbags who think they are above the other people, while we are all equal in Allah's (swt) eyes.

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## Rafael

^^^^I thought this is an F-16 discussion thread


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## araz

Jihad said:


> Well they can suck my lollipop over there, I couldn't care less how low we are for them.
> I can however confirm your story, a friend of mine who used to work as security guard in the store I worked was in UAE in the past and had worked as entrance guard in local disco's and clubs.
> He once told me that there was this Arabian guy with the clothing and all, and people were waiting in some kind of line, and this person simply walked infront and ignored the waiting line, when my friend told him that he had to wait and go back, he simply said something like, "and who are you to tell me that I must go back etc.", all in all, he had a very big mouth, and thought that he was really something, so my friend, he's pretty big, fat and huge, he took him by his collar and dragged him out of the club and threw him outside.
> 
> He told me everyone was shocked by that because no one actually dares to touch or talk down to these "elite" duds or whatever.
> Ohwell, great story, and I laughed real hard, because this is the way how you deal with scumbags who think they are above the other people, while we are all equal in Allah's (swt) eyes.



You are very right. The arab mania of being better than the rest of the world is being shattered nowadays as they acquire education and learn about the rest of the world. They are in a difficult position. It is awakening which is being denied them by their rulers, so they remain asleepwithout questioning anything their rulers do. However, this dream will n0t last very long and they will get their rude awakening as in many ways are we!!!!
NOW BACK TO THE TOPUIC OF F16s PLEASE!!!
Does anyone know what is happenning in China regarding DRFM as their was a piece of news that China had started work on one. In case that is denied/not ready, what other options do we have. Do we even need one.
Thanks in advance
Araz

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## notorious_eagle

Jihad said:


> *Well they can suck my lollipop over there, I couldn't care less how low we are for them.
> I can however confirm your story, a friend of mine who used to work as security guard in the store I worked was in UAE in the past and had worked as entrance guard in local disco's and clubs.
> He once told me that there was this Arabian guy with the clothing and all, and people were waiting in some kind of line, and this person simply walked infront and ignored the waiting line, when my friend told him that he had to wait and go back, he simply said something like, "and who are you to tell me that I must go back etc.", all in all, he had a very big mouth, and thought that he was really something, so my friend, he's pretty big, fat and huge, he took him by his collar and dragged him out of the club and threw him outside.*
> 
> He told me everyone was shocked by that because no one actually dares to touch or talk down to these "elite" duds or whatever.
> Ohwell, great story, and I laughed real hard, because this is the way how you deal with scumbags who think they are above the other people, while we are all equal in Allah's (swt) eyes.



Hahahaha soo true, in my university there are a lot of Arabs and you are right they are soo arrogant. Palestinians on numerous occasions have taken some serious beatings from our Pakistani brothers, you will be surprised how greedy and beghairat these people are.


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## PAFAce

Self Deleted


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## Arsalan

the DRFM, for what do we need them, as Jammers or what??


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## Arsalan

With all respect seniors, i still do not have a satisfying answer to my question, the MLU from US and the Turkish Upgrade Package!!

are they both different things and each plane will get both of them, if so what will be the upgrade package for each project, what will be considered in the MLU and what will be upgraded by the turkish?
or
the fleet will be divide into two batches, one getting the US MLU M3 and the other the turkish upgrade?
or
ot the Turkish project is just as a back up in case the US cancles the deal as they do always!!!

it will be a huge favour if anyone can answer me, many other members have also shown the same confusion so it will be good for all of them also!!

thankyou


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## Owais

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the DRFM, for what do we need them, as Jammers or what??



_A digital radio-frequency memory (DRFM) is an electronic countermeasures device that samples and quantizes (analog to digital conversion) an incoming radar signal and produces (digital to analog conversion) a jamming signal from the sampled radar signal._

An expression for the frequency spectrum of a digital radio frequency memory sig

Modulated single channel digital radio frequency memory (DRFM) - US Patent 4891646 Claims

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## PAFAce

> Originally Posted by Muradk
> From what I have heard F-16/B52 deal just went south so tata to block-52. Which means more J-10s to compensate the shortage.



Is there anything official indicating the blockade of the new F-16s to Pakistan? I'd really like to hear some confirmation/denial of this statement. It doesn't have to be a direct statement saying "we are not getting the F-16s", it will most likely be subtle, like the sudden increase of the number of J-10s in the first order or a sudden interest in the J-11 etc. Let's see what transpires in the president's visit to China.

Please keep an eye out for any news. I don't get any Pakistani news channels here, so I'll keep glued to this forum and other defence sites. If you have family/friends in the PAF, try to probe them for some information. Hopefully MuradK will brief us about this bombshell a little further.


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## H2O3C4Nitrogen

> A digital radio-frequency memory (DRFM) is an electronic countermeasures device that samples and quantizes (analog to digital conversion) an incoming radar signal and produces (digital to analog conversion) a jamming signal from the sampled radar signal.


This devise can also be used for spying puposes . Like tracking audio frequency . We can make this device locally . All you need is xylinx spartan 3 FPGA with necessory coding to prototype it. You can compleetely paralize enemy's aircraft by transmitting a virus into its digital radar signal processor and this is the reason why some of the most advanced aircrafts like F-22 or Stealth F-117 are so vonreble to deadly radar waves which they can recieve. A UAV is more exposed to such kind of electronic warefare , you can compleetely paralize it.
Digital signal processing , Quantization . Awesome subjects . 
I m doing Computer Engineering and working on a simillar kind of project. A Jamming device which can jam the radars by corrupting the incoming and reflected signal .

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## Arsalan

> Originally Posted by Muradk
> From what I have heard F-16/B52 deal just went south so tata to block-52. Which means more J-10s to compensate the shortage.



not that was quite predictable and i have been sayng it lound n clear,, DO NOT TRUST AMERICANS!!!

if it is the case to be it is Sad, but the good think is that we can plan a replacement project, it is better to know it now if we are not to get them then to get a negative in 2010 and then think about some other option

for me even the american have not cancled it yet we MUST seek a replacement option in order to deal with the worst, also multiple option may prove to be motivating for the americans as they we see that PAF if going to get a modren AC finally so it will be better for them to sell it!!! (May Be)

anyways, i hope this do not proves to be the actual case and we some how get hands on to the magnificiant machine!!

May Allah Help Us


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## PAFAce

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> This devise can also be used for spying puposes . Like tracking audio frequency . We can make this device locally . All you need is xylinx spartan 3 FPGA with necessory coding to prototype it. You can compleetely paralize enemy's aircraft by transmitting a virus into its digital radar signal processor and this is the reason why some of the most advanced aircrafts like F-22 or Stealth F-117 are so vonreble to deadly radar waves which they can recieve. A UAV is more exposed to such kind of electronic warefare , you can compleetely paralize it.
> Digital signal processing , Quantization . Awesome subjects .
> I m doing Computer Engineering and working on a simillar kind of project. A Jamming device which can jam the radars by corrupting the incoming and reflected signal .



I don't see why just one particular type of FPGA must be used (Xylinx Spartan 3, as you say). Also, they don't use FPGAs in aircrafts, they use high integrity embedded processors, but like you said, FPGAs can be used for prototyping. 

It's good to know that you are doing computer engineering and working in the signals processing / computer hardware area, however, things like microchips, DSP, A2D/D2A algorithms etc. are pretty much standard in the aviation industry, and are bought off-the-shelf or through contracting and never designed by aircraft companies. However, since you are in computer engineering, I guess your primary interest is in the actual FPGA design (combinatorial circuits, Complex State Machines etc) than on the functionality of the jamming system (correct me if I'm wrong).

The areas you _really_ need to study if you want to get into jamming, reconnaissance, radar, lidar, deception, ECM etc. is electromagnetism, in particular, wireless electromagnetic systems (i.e., wireless radio, microwave, VHF, UHF systems etc). If you go into signal processing or computer hardware engineering (DSP, A2D/D2A, FPGA, digital/analog electronics), you will primarily be working on signal systems or chip design and not on the actual aircraft systems (i.e., you will be working for a signals company or a chip design company like Cisco, Qualcomm, Siemens, Intel, AMD etc. rather than an aircraft company like LM, Boeing, PAC etc). Therefore, the areas more directly related to the stuff you mention in your post fall under the traditional Electrical Engineering field.

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## Arsalan

are we looking for the this peice of equipment, will it come through the turkish upgrade ot the MLU


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## All-Green

H2O3C4Nitrogen said:


> This devise can also be used for spying puposes . Like tracking audio frequency . We can make this device locally . All you need is xylinx spartan 3 FPGA with necessory coding to prototype it. You can compleetely paralize enemy's aircraft by transmitting a virus into its digital radar signal processor and this is the reason why some of the most advanced aircrafts like F-22 or Stealth F-117 are so vonreble to deadly radar waves which they can recieve. A UAV is more exposed to such kind of electronic warefare , you can compleetely paralize it.
> Digital signal processing , Quantization . Awesome subjects .
> I m doing Computer Engineering and working on a simillar kind of project. A Jamming device which can jam the radars by corrupting the incoming and reflected signal .



As far as i recall, the offensive electronic measure usually composes of very strong interference at the same frequency of target, due to complex frequency hopping measures by modern radars it is not that easy to succeed in damaging a system this way. The more spectrum a jamming device needs to interfere with the less power at each frequency within the spectrum it shall be able to throw at the target device. This limits the chance of damaging the target system though it shall still degrade the performance of the target system.

If the frequency pattern of the radar can be predicted then the objective is to concentrate the energy at those frequencies and bombard the target system with enough energy to take the target system beyond its limits in the receive path and desensitize it or damage it permanently this way.

I honestly did not know one can attack a radar system with a virus in combat...how would the target radar be made to receive and execute a software routine which damages its DSP?
The digital signal processor may be corrupted with a virus but how would it enter the software subsystem?
UAV receives its instructions via a remote station so yes it is much easier to disrupt its communication but to damage (not disrupt) a radar/electronic suite of an advanced combat aircraft is quite a tricky thing to achieve!

Just curious, even though i am quite out of touch but still an engineer.


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## PAFAce

All-Green said:


> As far as i recall, the offensive electronic measure usually composes of very strong interference at the same frequency of target, due to complex frequency hopping measures by modern radars it is not that easy to succeed in damaging a system this way. The more spectrum a jamming device needs to interfere with the less power at each frequency within the spectrum it shall be able to throw at the target device. This limits the chance of damaging the target system though it shall still degrade the performance of the target system.
> 
> If the frequency pattern of the radar can be predicted then the objective is to concentrate the energy at those frequencies and bombard the target system with enough energy to take the target system beyond its limits in the receive path and desensitize it or damage it permanently this way.
> 
> I honestly did not know one can attack a radar system with a virus in combat...how would the target radar be made to receive and execute a software routine which damages its DSP?
> The digital signal processor may be corrupted with a virus but how would it enter the software subsystem?
> UAV receives its instructions via a remote station so yes it is much easier to disrupt its communication but to damage (not disrupt) a radar/electronic suite of an advanced combat aircraft is quite a tricky thing to achieve!
> 
> Just curious, even though i am quite out of touch but still an engineer.



I don't think he meant a 'virus' in the software sense of the word. I'm pretty sure he meant 'make the radar system sick' or in other words, decrease its efficiency. And you are correct, modern radars are built precisely to counter the electronic countermeasures (reminds me of the famous line "defense is nothing but measure and counter measure"). In his project, I assume, the transmission frequency is fixed and so he can concentrate enough energy at the known segment of the EM spectrum to 'burn' the system and render it useless. In real combat scenario, the offensive radar will somehow have to give its frequencies away for us to be able to counter it using this simple concentrated energy technique. In case of an F-22, for example, we won't even know it is in the airspace, let alone its operating frequencies, so it will be pretty much impossible to burn it (without some incredible intelligence information, that is). However, rest assured, it is only a matter of time before this capability is countered as well.


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## hj786

Some people say that the recent attack on Syria by the israeli air force wasn't stopped by Syria's air defence system because Israel hacked it.

The Israeli 'E-tack' on Syria ? Part I - - Air Force Technology
The Israeli 'E-tack' on Syria ? Part II - - Air Force Technology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suter_(computer_program)


Wikipedia said:


> Suter is a military computer program developed by BAE Systems that attacks computer networks and communications systems belonging to an enemy. Development of the program has been managed by Big Safari, a secret unit of the United States Air Force. It is specialised to interfere with the computers of integrated air defence systems.[1]
> 
> Three generations of Suter have been developed. Suter 1 allows its operators to monitor what enemy radar operators can see. Suter 2 lets them take control of the enemy's networks and direct their sensors. Suter 3, tested in summer 2006, enables the invasion of links to time-critical targets such as battlefield ballistic missile launchers or mobile surface-to-air missile launchers.
> 
> The program has been tested with aircraft such as the EC-130, RC-135, and F-16CJ.[1] It has been used in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2006.[2][3]
> 
> U.S. Air Force officials have speculated that a technology similar to Suter was used by the Israeli Air Force to thwart Syrian radars and sneak into their airspace undetected in Operation Orchard on September 6, 2007. The evasion of air defence radar was otherwise unlikely because the F-15s and F-16s used by the IAF were not equipped with stealth technology.[2][4]



If they can do it to a ground-based radar targeting system, they can probably do it to an airborne system i.e. combat aircraft and AEW/C radars.


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## lowe1941

raheel1 said:


> ^^^^I thought this is an F-16 discussion thread




I have heard that something like 76 planes have been shot down by F16s with out any losses in air to air combat with the exception of once when one pakistan F16 shot down by another Pakistan F16 by a sparrow missle in an engagement with Afgan in the 80s. Can any one verfiy this...


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## PAFAce

hj786 said:


> If they can do it to a ground-based radar targeting system, they can probably do it to an airborne system i.e. combat aircraft and AEW/C radars.



I have heard of this as well, but it is not a topic about which we have much info yet. The idea, I believe, is to turn the enemy's aids into its threats, or its strengths into its weekness.

When I first heard/read of this idea, the point was that conventional strength/warfare is not necessary anymore. All you need are a few computers and you can destroy the enemy through electronic infiltration into their less electronically protected systems like banks, airports, networks, hospitals, power grids, communications grid etc. You may even, if you have the capability, choose to hack into their intelligence, decision making and defence systems. This way, you have won the war before it even started (the "ultimate victory" according Sun Tzu). The idea, like many other, sounds simple but wold require huge amounts of research. Many countries, like the US (and maybe Israel), have many checks in place to prevent precisely this type of a situation, but countries like Pakistan and Syria are much more vulnerable to this type of warfare.

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## Munir

lowe1941 said:


> I have heard that something like 76 planes have been shot down by F16s with out any losses in air to air combat with the exception of once when one pakistan F16 shot down by another Pakistan F16 by a sparrow missle in an engagement with Afgan in the 80s. Can any one verfiy this...



not sparrow but aim9p

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## lowe1941

All-Green said:


> As far as i recall, the offensive electronic measure usually composes of very strong interference at the same frequency of target, due to complex frequency hopping measures by modern radars it is not that easy to succeed in damaging a system this way. The more spectrum a jamming device needs to interfere with the less power at each frequency within the spectrum it shall be able to throw at the target device. This limits the chance of damaging the target system though it shall still degrade the performance of the target system.
> 
> If the frequency pattern of the radar can be predicted then the objective is to concentrate the energy at those frequencies and bombard the target system with enough energy to take the target system beyond its limits in the receive path and desensitize it or damage it permanently this way.
> 
> I honestly did not know one can attack a radar system with a virus in combat...how would the target radar be made to receive and execute a software routine which damages its DSP?
> The digital signal processor may be corrupted with a virus but how would it enter the software subsystem?
> UAV receives its instructions via a remote station so yes it is much easier to disrupt its communication but to damage (not disrupt) a radar/electronic suite of an advanced combat aircraft is quite a tricky thing to achieve!
> 
> Just curious, even though i am quite out of touch but still an engineer.



USAF Building Disruptor Capability Right Now 
by James Dunnigan

The U.S. Air Force doesn't say much about its work on high-powered microwave (HPM) weapons. But recently the air force asked defense firms to bid on a contract to build CHAMP (Counter-Electronics HPM Advanced Missile Project). The air force wants a missile (or a pod for aircraft) that can give off several burst of HPM (that will damage or destroy any electronic gear within a certain range), and thus take out several targets. This CHAMP contract will pay $40 million to the winning bid, and allow 36 months to come up with a weapon that works. If that is accomplished, the CHAMP system would be in service within 4-5 years. 

Meanwhile, quietly, and without much fanfare, the U.S. Air Force has been equipping some of its fighters with electronic ray type weapons. Not quite the death ray of science fiction fame, but an electronic ray type weapon none the less. In this case, the weapon uses the high-powered microwave (HPM) effects found in Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar technology. These radars have been around a long time, popular mainly for their ability deal with lots of targets simultaneously. But AESA is also able to focus a concentrated beam of radio energy that could scramble electronic components of a distant target. Sort of like the EMP (Electromagnetic Pulse) put out by nuclear weapons. 

The air force won't, for obvious reasons, discuss the exact kill range of the of the various models of AESA radars on American warplanes (the F-15, F-35 and F-22 have them). However, it is known that range in this case is an elastic thing. Depending on how well the target electronics are hardened against EMP, more electrical power will be required to do damage. Moreover, the electrical power of the various AESA radars in service varies as well. The air force has said that the larger AESA radar it plans to install on its E-10 radar aircraft would be able to zap cruise missile guidance systems up to 180 kilometers away. The E-10 AESA is several times larger than the one in the F-35 (the largest in use now), so make your own estimates. Smaller versions of this technology would arm the CHAMP system

What would an E-10 AESA radar do to a warplanes systems at 180 miles if it could zap a cruise miissile at 180 miles. Todays war planes might be like bows and arrows against machine guns or lazers.

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## Arsalan

why are we into it!! are we getting them via some upgrade package or are you peop;e just sharing it for Information!!


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## lowe1941

Munir said:


> not sparrow but aim9p



Subject: On MiG-29 - This is interesting
FalloutBoy 1/20/2002 8:08:47 AM 
After doing a bit of research, I dug up some AA combat records on the MiG-29 and F-16. The MiG-29 has only 2 AA victories, both with the Cuban Air Force - against Cuban exile Cessnas that were approaching Cuban airspace. 35-45 MiG-29s have been shot down. The F-16 by comparison has 64 AA victories (51 of these with the Israeli Air Force during the Bekaa valley engagements, and 13 with the U.S. Air Force during Desert Storm, most of the AA victories in Desert Storm were F-15s). The only F-16 that was ever shot down was with the Pakistani Air Force, a friendly fire incident involving an AIM-9 (friggin Pakistanis had to tarnish its record). I was not able to find any records of F-16 AA victories with the Pakistani Air Force, although there may be a couple


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## Dil Pakistan

Does anyone know the real truth behind so called "Kill Buttons" on Pakistani F-16s !!!! I have read some reports that US has got "Kill Buttons" on Pakistani F-16 to make them useless in case of wars etc. 

Any views - Is it just a stupid story or any truth behind it ????


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## TOPGUN

No there is no such things in our f-16's as kill buttons iam pretty sure of it !

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## shehbazi2001

lowe1941 said:


> I have heard that something like 76 planes have been shot down by F16s with out any losses in air to air combat with the exception of once when one pakistan F16 shot down by another Pakistan F16 by a sparrow missle in an engagement with Afgan in the 80s. Can any one verfiy this...




There are some reports of Israeli F-16s shot down by Syrian Mig-23s. If you translate the following page from russian to english using google and read it, there is some account.

???-23 ?? ??????? ???????


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## mean_bird

Dil Pakistan said:


> Does anyone know the real truth behind so called "Kill Buttons" on Pakistani F-16s !!!! I have read some reports that US has got "Kill Buttons" on Pakistani F-16 to make them useless in case of wars etc.
> 
> Any views - Is it just a stupid story or any truth behind it ????



lol...Some theories are so weird, I don't know how people even believe such stuff?

Who would buy a plane with a "kill button" and what for....to put it in a museum?


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## shehbazi2001

lowe1941 said:


> Subject: On MiG-29 - This is interesting
> FalloutBoy 1/20/2002 8:08:47 AM
> The only F-16 that was ever shot down was with the Pakistani Air Force, a friendly fire incident involving an AIM-9 (friggin Pakistanis had to tarnish its record). I was not able to find any records of F-16 AA victories with the Pakistani Air Force, although there may be a couple




PAF did not tarnish the F-16 record, its the IDF/AF whose almost 6 F-16s were shot down (claimed) by Syrian Mig-23s in June 1982 war. Check out the following link,

Syrian Air-to-Air Victories since 1948

One can note that most of the Syrians Mig-23s shot down by IDF/AF were the ground-attack version Mig-23BN and not the air superiority variant Mig-23MF.

PAF F-16s have many victories to their credit during Afghan war.


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## lowe1941

shehbazi2001 said:


> PAF did not tarnish the F-16 record, its the IDF/AF whose almost 6 F-16s were shot down (claimed) by Syrian Mig-23s in June 1982 war. Check out the following link,
> 
> Syrian Air-to-Air Victories since 1948
> 
> One can note that most of the Syrians Mig-23s shot down by IDF/AF were the ground-attack version Mig-23BN and not the air superiority variant Mig-23MF.
> 
> PAF F-16s have many victories to their credit during Afghan war.



I kind of think *claimed* is right on those...


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## Munir

PAF f16's had no BVR and were in much smaller numbers with extremely hostile rules of engagement... Israeli had US backup and could do anything they wanted...

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## ejaz007

PAF F-16s reportedly shot down seven fighters while suffering no losses. Fighters shot down included Su-22, Su-25, Mig-21 and Mig-23. One F-16 was lost to friendly fire.

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## lowe1941

ejaz007 said:


> PAF F-16s reportedly shot down seven fighters while suffering no losses. Fighters shot down included Su-22, Su-25, Mig-21 and Mig-23. One F-16 was lost to friendly fire.



Why was Pakistan shooting down Afgan Jet Fighters I dont even remember that conflict.


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## ejaz007

lowe1941 said:


> Why was Pakistan shooting down Afgan Jet Fighters I dont even remember that conflict.



Not all fighters shot down were Afghan air force fighters. These also included Soviet air force fighters.

These fighters violated our air space and were shot down. This happened during Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. I hope you remember now.


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## MastanKhan

ejaz007 said:


> Not all fighters shot down were Afghan air force fighters. These also included Soviet air force fighters.
> 
> These fighters violated our air space and were shot down. This happened during Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. I hope you remember now.



Hi,

Actually the afghani / russian planes would carry out strike missions inside pakistani borders on afghan camps. PAF would have caps flying around---sometimes they would intercept the russians.


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## PAFAce

MastanKhan said:


> Actually the afghani / russian planes would carry out strike missions inside pakistani borders on afghan camps. PAF would have caps flying around---sometimes they would intercept the russians.



The PAF pilots certainly did not like the Rules of Engagements. They were almost never allowed to engage the enemy, and when they were, they had to make sure the violation was over a certain threshold (few nautical miles inside Pakistani territory), ensure that the wreckage fell inside Pakistani territory, and were not allowed to pursue the violating jets/planes if they broke off. These ROE's were designed to ensure that the Soviet Union had no valid/legal reasons to launch a large scale attack on Pakistan. Despite the suffocating ROEs, we sent a pretty good message to the enemy forces (brand-spanking-new F-16s certainly helped). 

The PAF was involved in a war for 10 straight years, from 1979 to 1989, without anyone finding out. I, too, was not aware of the magnitude of the Air Force activity during those years until I actually made an effort to research the history of the Pakistan Air Force.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Please view my gallery. I uploaded pics of israeli uav in service by IAF --shot down just southwest of Lahore by F-16 Falcon using sidewinder missile.



And regarding F-16s being upgraded by T&#252;rk Aerospace Industries --- when will they be completed? As I type this, i believe 1-2 of the aircrafts are in Ankara. The rest will receive upgrade (to block 40 spec) in Pakistan --most probably in Sarghoda.


I have heard some rumours that PAF has some funding issues with respect to this deal ---but it makes no sense --- since deals dont get finalized until the cash is handed over. And as far as i know, US Congress passed authorization for part of the funding to come from US Taxpayers to Lockheed Martin, given our efforts on war against terrorism.

Can somebody with credible knowledge please correct/refute/confirm above statements? I am sitting here wondering when the work will be completed. 



regards..

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## Arsalan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Please view my gallery. I uploaded pics of israeli uav in service by IAF --shot down just southwest of Lahore by F-16 Falcon using sidewinder missile.
> 
> 
> 
> And regarding F-16s being upgraded by Türk Aerospace Industries --- when will they be completed? As I type this, i believe 1-2 of the aircrafts are in Ankara. The rest will receive upgrade (to block 40 spec) in Pakistan --most probably in Sarghoda.
> 
> 
> I have heard some rumours that PAF has some funding issues with respect to this deal ---but it makes no sense --- since deals dont get finalized until the cash is handed over. And as far as i know, US Congress passed authorization for part of the funding to come from US Taxpayers to Lockheed Martin, given our efforts on war against terrorism.
> 
> Can somebody with credible knowledge please correct/refute/confirm above statements? I am sitting here wondering when the work will be completed.
> 
> 
> 
> regards..



thanks bro, but i and many of the members here have been told that the F16 are to be upgraded to block 50 specs, anyway whatever it is this is a good news, i guess we must not relay on the US MLU programe and find some replacement to it!!


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## Myth_buster_1

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> And regarding F-16s being upgraded by Türk Aerospace Industries --- when will they be completed? As I type this, i believe 1-2 of the aircrafts are in Ankara. The rest will receive upgrade (to block 40 spec) in Pakistan --most probably in Sarghoda.



2-4 F-16 are being MLU in US as we speak. TAI will be assisting us in pakistan most probibly in "kamera" and the upgrade will be done by our personals. the upgraded spec will be close to block 52 as it is PAF intention not block 40 thats why the reasion why PAF favors less clocked block 15 over block 32 offered by USAF or else it would be a hell lot cheaper to purchase block 32 and upgrade them to block 40.


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## pakpower

so by upgrading to block 50 will these upgraded planes will match the Performance with the latest Newly purchased Block 52 F-16s ? 

Let say in firing BVR Missiles with same ability ?
Latest Radars just like newly planes and every functionality which new ones have if they have the same ability then this upgrade is very great package for PAF for increasing it's ability in defence


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## Myth_buster_1

pakpower said:


> so by upgrading to block 50 will these upgraded planes will match the Performance with the latest Newly purchased Block 52 F-16s ?
> 
> Let say in firing BVR Missiles with same ability ?
> Latest Radars just like newly planes and every functionality which new ones have if they have the same ability then this upgrade is very great package for PAF for increasing it's ability in defence



well... i guess you didnt read thiss... and of course BVR capability in air and ground is the whole point.. 

* APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar;
* Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
* AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
* AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
* Have Quick I/II Radios;
* Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT);
* SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
* Reconnaissance pod capability;
* Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (for training);


MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits;

* 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
* 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
* 1 Unit Level Trainer;
* 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.

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## Arsalan

PC said:


> well... i guess you didnt read thiss... and of course BVR capability in air and ground is the whole point..
> 
> * APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar;
> * Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
> * AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
> * AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
> * Have Quick I/II Radios;
> * Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT);
> * SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
> * Reconnaissance pod capability;
> * Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (for training);.



now are the all above modificationa a part of the turkish upgrades, or are the the US MLU?? Please inform us!! also tell us about thhe specs below, you said that these are the MLU package!



> *MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits;*
> * 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
> * 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
> * 1 Unit Level Trainer;
> * 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets


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## Myth_buster_1

arsalanaslam123 said:


> now are the all above modificationa a part of the turkish upgrades, or are the the US MLU?? Please inform us!! also tell us about thhe specs below, you said that these are the MLU package!



TAI will only assist us with modifications and thats it.. all major systems will be bought from US like the radar, EW suites etc... i think the engines will go to US for relife...

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## saiko

Any word on the PAF request to acquire the AN/ALQ-211 for the F-16s?


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## blain2

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the DRFM, for what do we need them, as Jammers or what??



A very simplified understanding of DRFM was provided by a peer to Daily Times of Pakistan after some gentleman had claimed that without DRFM, all would be lost. 

Take a read:



> LETTERS:
> Post letters to Letters to the Editor, The Daily Times, 41-N, Industrial Area, Gulberg II, Lahore, Pakistan Phone: 92-42-5878614-19; Fax: 92-42-5878620 E-mail: letters@dailytimes.com.pk
> Letters may be edited for length and clarity
> 
> The F-16 fact file
> 
> Sir: Kamran Shafi&#8217;s article titled &#8220;Are the F-16&#8217;s up to scratch&#8221; (Daily Times, August 10) regarding the folly of Pakistan purchasing the F-16s, pointed out to him by a friend, states &#8220;What worries him specifically (other than the US being able to stop the supply of spares) is that these F-16s will not have electronic warfare (EW) programming capabilities for its radar warning receiver (RWR). It has been observed that our F-16s cannot detect being locked onto by a Mirage 2000 (since this is a NATO aircraft), while the Chinese-built F-6 could. What this would mean is that an enemy airplane fitted with beyond visual range (BVR) missiles, can lock on to our F-16 and fire a missile, without the craft being able to take evasive measures. This would make even the most sophisticated aircraft, with all the manoeuvrability in the world, a sitting duck in combat.
> 
> This is an inaccurate analysis, considering that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16s do have EW capabilities. The only difference is that the F-16s now being purchased do not have a component called Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM). This means that while flying the F-16 over enemy territory, in case the craft is subjected to electronic jamming by the opposing air force, the F-16 is able to record these jamming signals and direct them at the enemy. DRFM is a relatively new technology and the Americans are unwilling to part with it at present. However this does not take away from the capability of the aircraft with regards to defending Pakistani airspace.
> 
> Pakistan&#8217;s resources are well spent on the F-16s, as countering the reiterated build-up of arms on the other side of the border is continuing cause for concern. It is high time, that a bit of reality replaces the idealism of Pakistan&#8217;s public.

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## blain2

On the issue of the delivery of Blk52s and MLU etc., as per the US Defence Security Agency.

The production of eighteen F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft is underway: four aircraft will be ready in June 2010; four aircraft in August 2010; five aircraft in October 2010; four aircraft in Dec 2010; and, one aircraft in December 2011. 

Mid-Life Update (MLU) of the fleet of forty-six aircraft (Blain - This is the current PAF F-16 inventory): four of these aircraft are in Fort Worth undergoing Trial Verification Installation, which is part of the MLU program. Under the MLU LOA, Pakistan is procuring Falcon STAR structural upgrade kits for the thirty-two original F-16A/B aircraft and thirty-five MLU avionics upgrade kits for the current fleet (including three of the recently transferred EDA aircraft). There is an option on the contract to procure eleven additional MLU avionics upgrade kits for the remaining eleven aircraft. Pakistan has not yet exercised this option, but plans to do so at a future date.

The Falcon STAR structural upgrade is very similar to that provided to
other F-16A/B customers. Falcon STAR replaces critical structural
components in the F-16 required to return the A/B airframe to a structural life
of 8,000 spectrum hours. Falcon STAR is required to keep the original thirty two PAF F-16A/Bs air worthy.

The Pakistan MLU avionics upgrade kits are being designed to provide
the Pakistan Block 15A/B aircraft with many of the same capabilities as the
new Block 52 F-16s that the PAF is procuring. The first four MLU aircraft are undergoing work in Fort Worth, Texas now.

AN/ALQ-211 is included in the MLU update for the Pakistani aircraft.

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## Quwa

Regarding DRFM, I don't think it will be long before the PAF acquires it for the F-16s.

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## fatman17

^^^contrary to popular belief, the Obama admn will ensure that pakistan's legitimate defence needs are met as long as pakistan supports the new "afpak" doctrine now being discussed/finalised (by this May) in washington. according to the latest "Newsweek" article, the relationship between Adm Mullen and Gen.Kiyani is "the most important" and has brought the two militaries closer to each other.

so barring any "crazyness" by our civilian govt. look for a smooth delivery of military hardware in the pipeline.

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## saiko

Mark Sien said:


> Regarding DRFM, I don't think it will be long before the PAF acquires it for the F-16s.



It's going to be important to acquire some kind of modern jammer to deal with the range differential between the AMRAAM and the AMRAAMski.

Even with a RCS something like 10 times larger than the F-16s, the radar on the Su-30MKI will likely be able to pickup the F-16 at something around 110-120km out. The F-16 will pickup the Su-30MKI at pretty much maximum range, unfortunately the AMRAAM won't be able to shoot until I think ~90km in the C5+ versions of the AMRAAM?

Of course, with a really good jammer the Su-30MKI may not even be able to get a solid BVR shot at all, which would be even better.


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## Myth_buster_1

saiko finally showing his true colors. just dont be ashamed to call yourself indian. 
btw go and check out APG-68 v9 range and C5, they are well capable of taking on MKI at BVR range. so anything IAF has is good good while PAF is just bad bad.. ok... fair enough from indian perspective.


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## saiko

PC said:


> saiko finally showing his true colors. just dont be ashamed to call yourself indian.
> btw go and check out APG-68 v9 range and C5, they are well capable of taking on MKI at BVR range. so anything IAF has is good good while PAF is just bad bad.. ok... fair enough from indian perspective.



If that's how you read my last post then you're clearly a nationalist fanboy. Put the blinders back on if you want.

Fact: the Pakistan Air Force has requested jamming pods from the US. I do not know if the US will be selling them to the PAF, but even the PAF recognizes this need.

I guess the Pakistan Air Force is secretely made up of a bunch of India-sympathizers.


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## Myth_buster_1

saiko said:


> If that's how you read my last post then you're clearly a nationalist fanboy. Put the blinders back on if you want.



oh i was under a impression that you were a indian hidden in a igloo but i was wrong. 



> Fact: the Pakistan Air Force has requested jamming pods from the US. I do not know if the US will be selling them to the PAF, but even the PAF recognizes this need.



jammer pods are not new for PAF and their is nothing new about US selling us jammer pods.. in fact PAF is one of the first ALQ-131 user. PAF will never proceed the sale if they are not up to their requirements... beside ALQ-131 block2 and ALQ-184 PAF has also requested Korean ALQ-200k for JF-17s and they were offered in IDEAS-2008.



> I guess the Pakistan Air Force is secretely made up of a bunch of India-sympathizers.


 tell me you were joking because its not even worth the discussion.


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## blain2

saiko said:


> Fact: the Pakistan Air Force has requested jamming pods from the US. I do not know if the US will be selling them to the PAF, but even the PAF recognizes this need.



See my post #268 above. US have sold them to Pakistan and we will be getting them with all of our F-16s including the blk15s.

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## hj786

I think I read somewhere that even PAF's current old jammer pods in use by the F-16 fleet were effective enough in the recent Anatolian Eagle exercises to stop anyone locking missiles on them at BVR. Could this be true? Maybe the new pods are geared towards countering newer, more advanced SAMs?

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## saiko

I am not an Indian. Full blooded Canadian, although there are a lot of Indians where I live. I gained an interest in the India-Pakistan conflicts via The Operational Art of War (great wargame) that has some very detailed scenarios that portray the various Indo-Pak conflicts.

I've always been impressed at what the Pakistan armed forces have been able to accomplish given the circumstances (do more with less) but it's a factual reality that the circumstances are not terribly favourable (on paper) given how much larger India is.

As far as the jammers go thanks for that info. I had only seen that the PAF requested teh AN/ALQ-211 form the US but not word on whether they got them. the AN/ALQ-211 is the successor for the AN/ALQ-131 so I'm assuming Pakistan is requesting them because the ALQ-131 is no longer meeting their requirements.

The PAF needs to stay on top of the jamming game given the platform they are relying on (F-16) while the IAF needs to stay on top of the other side of the spectrum.

Fortunately for Pakistan, upgrading jammers tends to be cheaper than upgrading radar/ECCM packages. Of course, all that could change if the US extends the range of the future versions of the AMRAAM.

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## blain2

saiko said:


> I am not an Indian. Full blooded Canadian, although there are a lot of Indians where I live. I gained an interest in the India-Pakistan conflicts via The Operational Art of War (great wargame) that has some very detailed scenarios that portray the various Indo-Pak conflicts.
> 
> I've always been impressed at what the Pakistan armed forces have been able to accomplish given the circumstances (do more with less) but it's a factual reality that the circumstances are not terribly favourable (on paper) given how much larger India is.
> 
> As far as the jammers go thanks for that info. I had only seen that the PAF requested teh AN/ALQ-211 form the US but not word on whether they got them. the AN/ALQ-211 is the successor for the AN/ALQ-131 so I'm assuming Pakistan is requesting them because the ALQ-131 is no longer meeting their requirements.
> 
> The PAF needs to stay on top of the jamming game given the platform they are relying on (F-16) while the IAF needs to stay on top of the other side of the spectrum.
> 
> Fortunately for Pakistan, upgrading jammers tends to be cheaper than upgrading radar/ECCM packages. Of course, all that could change if the US extends the range of the future versions of the AMRAAM.



Keep in mind that quite a few NATO Airforces including the Dutch and Norwegians are using the same ALQ-131s with updates. With newer aircraft, you have the option of buying what is available in the market. This time around, PAF has opted for ALQ-211. US has sold them, Congress has been notified and they will be in Pakistan in June 2010.

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## saiko

hj786 said:


> I think I read somewhere that even PAF's current old jammer pods in use by the F-16 fleet were effective enough in the recent Anatolian Eagle exercises to stop anyone locking missiles on them at BVR. Could this be true? Maybe the new pods are geared towards countering newer, more advanced SAMs?



The thing about ECM/ECCM is that you can take the exact same jammer and the exact same radar trying to lock onto the jammer equipped plane at the exact same range and get different results everytime. Partially becauase environmental variables matter and partially because the algorithms used are insanely complicated and slightly different input data could change everything.

Most of the techniques used in ECM/ECCM are not new... you can trace many of the concepts back to operational use in WW2 to give you an idea of how the game works. It's mostly a question of efficiency/output/etc. It's possible older jammer pods would still be effective, but normally ECM and ECCM leapfrog each other. I develop a jammer, someone develops a radar resitant to that jammer. So I develop a new jammer and so on until the end of time .

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## blain2

saiko said:


> The thing about ECM/ECCM is that you can take the exact same jammer and the exact same radar trying to lock onto the jammer equipped plane at the exact same range and get different results everytime. Partially becauase environmental variables matter and partially because the algorithms used are insanely complicated and slightly different input data could change everything.
> 
> Most of the techniques used in ECM/ECCM are not new... you can trace many of the concepts back to operational use in WW2 to give you an idea of how the game works. It's mostly a question of efficiency/output/etc. It's possible older jammer pods would still be effective, but normally ECM and ECCM leapfrog each other. I develop a jammer, someone develops a radar resitant to that jammer. So I develop a new jammer and so on until the end of time .



Actually this leapfrogging is the reason that they have started to come up with updates on the jammers instead of new jammers all the time. The ALQ-131 has had a pretty decent life (over 10 years) and has been able to stay current with updates. The key thing is the frequency of the emitter. You track signal and the RF over which it is being emitted and then record it. DRFM does this in real time and then allows playback which is what confuses the emitter because they are unable to distinguish the target which is essentially cloaked behind these played back frequencies. In the absence of DRFM, other ECM gear is loaded up with the threat libraries that have been gathered via the ELINT operations.

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## SSMtr

saiko said:


> If that's how you read my last post then you're clearly a nationalist fanboy. Put the blinders back on if you want.
> 
> Fact: the Pakistan Air Force has requested jamming pods from the US. I do not know if the US will be selling them to the PAF, but even the PAF recognizes this need.
> 
> I guess the Pakistan Air Force is secretely made up of a bunch of India-sympathizers.



please calm down no flames in the forum.


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## Sargodhian_Eagle

Are F-16C/D are delivered to PAF coz in Wikipedia its mentioned that PAF is operating 44 F-16A/B n 4 F-16C/D

Plz clear which kind of F-16C/D are these? New or MLU


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## HAIDER

Plz post your question in F16 related thread or PAF related question thread.
thanks


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## Neo

No, the delivery of first Block 52 F-16D is expected in June 2010. Mlu delivery to start a year later.

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## Neo

*Threads merged.*


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## Munir

About DRFM... Without it a plane needs to return to base and they will add ECM for the next flight and all other planes. With DRFM it is able to counter immediately and send it ot home station or other planes in the area... So the enemy has no time to alter frequencies. If you go back to base then one can expect that next time you have another problem...

It is a matter of time before PAF enters DRFM era. JF17 ECM is pretty advanced and it is able to gain capacity. Whether it has DRFM we cannot know it but I do not think that adding high speed memory to already existing ECM is a huge problem for China or Pakistan.

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## mean_bird

Sargodhian_Eagle said:


> Hv any person, model photo of *F-16 52+* in PAF colour scheme?
> Whn they r coming to PAF?





mean_bird said:


> Sargodhian Eagle
> 
> There already exist threads for F-16 and Airforce thread. You should ask your questions in those threads instead of starting new ones. Otherwise, we have too many threads about the same topic.
> 
> To answer your question
> -The pictures can be found in the PAF calender I posted. (check 2-3 pages back for PAF calender).
> -F-16 C/D should be coming in beginning or middle of 2010.





Sargodhian_Eagle said:


> U r rite but i hv a conclusion that i read in wikipedia that PAF is operating *44 F-16A/B n 4 F-16C/D
> So in short reply clear to me that which F-16C/D r these? New or MLU*


*



mean_bird said:



I was talking about the new ones that will start arriving sometime in 2010. 

AFAIK, PAF has currently 44 A/B models + 2 which are currently undergoing MLU in the US. The make up of these is 32 we already had and 14 recieved from USAF (which were previously embargoed). Out of these 14, 2 are in US for MLU thus leaving 44 with us. The rest of the MLU will most probably be done in Pakistan with assistance from TAI once the MLU kits are received.

Click to expand...


One more thing, the 14 ex-PAF planes that were embargoed are as follows


Peace Gate III
Plane ........... block...........total............... numbers...................status
F-16A block...... 15OCU.......... 6...................91729-34 .................embargoed
F-16B Block.......15OCU.......... 5 ..................91613-17................. embargoed

Peace Gate IV
Plane .............. block ...........total........... numbers........................status
F-16A Block .........15OCU ...........7 ...............92735-41 .....................embargoed
F-16B Block.......... 15OCU..........10................92618-19,93621-27....... embargoed

So you can see that these were F-16 OCU. 

Here's some information about what exactly is in an OCU




- Designated Block 15OCU (Operational Capability Upgrade), these aircraft are powered by the more reliable F100-PW-220 turbofan. 
- These aircraft also have structural strengthening and are provided with the enlarged HUD that was first introduced on the F-16C/D. 
- Also incorporated are the capability to fire the Norwegian Penguin Mk.3 anti-shipping missile (built by Kongsberg, US designation AGM-119) and the AGM-65,
- provisions for the AIM-120 Amraam, 
- radar altimeter, 
- expanded computer capacity, 
- data transfer unit, 
- wide-angle HUD, 
- AN/APX-101 IFF, 
- Tracor AN/ALE-40 chaff/flare dispenser and 
- provisions for the AN/ALQ-131 ECM pod. 
- These modifications increased the max. TO weight to 37,500lbs (17,010kg).

Reference

Click to expand...


Therefore PAF has 32 A/B, 12A/B OCU in service while 2 are in US getting MLU.*

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## Hasnain2009

The Turkish Fighter Fleet Grows Anon

The Turkish Fighter Fleet Grows Anon
*March 11, 2009*: Turkey has bought another 30 F-16C Block 50 fighters, for over $60 million each. This will give Turkey one of the largest F-16s fleets (nearly 250) in the world. Like Israel, Turkey is upgrading its older F-16s. There are actually six major models of the F-16 currently in use, and identified by block number (32, 40, 42, 50, 52, 60), plus the Israeli F-16I, which is a major modification of the Block 52. Another special version (the Block 60), for the UAE (United Arab Emirates) is called the F-16E. The various block mods included a large variety of new components (five engines, four sets of avionics, five generations of electronic warfare gear, five radars and many other mechanical, software, cockpit and electrical mods.) Countries like Turkey can thus add the new components and turn an older F-16 into a more powerful late model. There are also some older (Block 1, 5, 15, 20, 25, 30) aircraft out there, all with two decade old technology. 

*Turkey is also becoming a bigger player in the upgrade market. For example, Pakistan is having a Turkish firm to upgrade elderly Pakistani F-16s from Block 15 configuration to Block 40. Now that the U.S. has lifted its arms embargo on Pakistan, there are many firms competing for all the work needed to update older American weapons still used by Pakistan. The Turks have long had good trade relations with Pakistan, and have also developed, with the help of the U.S. and Israel, a capable aircraft maintenance and upgrade industry. Most of the F-16 work will be done in Pakistan, using Turkish engineers and technicians supervising some local workers, and using largely imported (from Turkey and elsewhere) components.* 

The F-16 is the most numerous post-Cold War jet fighter, with over 4,200 built, and more in production. There are 24 nations using the F-16, and 14 have ordered more, in addition to their initial order. During The Cold War, Russia built over 10,000 MiG-21s, and the U.S over 5,000 F-4s, but since then warplane production has plummeted about 90 percent. But since the end of the Cold War, the F-16 has been popular enough to keep the production lines going. This despite the fact that the F-35 is supposed to replace the F-16. But the F-35 price keeps going up (it's headed north of $100 million per aircraft), and the F-16 continues to get the job done at half that price.

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## Göktu&#287;

Pakistan Air Force Really Must be Uprage Of F-16s But I Think Pakistan should be joint The JSF F-35 Project...


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## Munir

Not entirely correct. Upgrade for PAF will be almost block 52 and not block 40... We are not sure where the upgrade might happen. PAC could be the party.


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## Munir

Göktu&#287;;325619 said:


> Pakistan Air Force Really Must be Uprage Of F-16s But I Think Pakistan should be joint The JSF F-35 Project...



My friend, if you know how the US treated Pakistan then you might understand that we wioll be lucky if we get a few Block52. And even then not with all the goodies and tons of restrictions. JSF will never become Pakistani. There is clearly a shift towards China.


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## notorious_eagle

Göktu&#287;;325619 said:


> Pakistan Air Force Really Must be Uprage Of F-16s But I Think Pakistan should be joint The JSF F-35 Project...



If we get into the JSF F35 Project, the Americans will come up with a demand which we will not be able to fill. Its better Pakistan works with China on the JXX project, its much more benificial to our country.


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## Hasnain2009

Munir said:


> Not entirely correct. Upgrade for PAF will be almost block 52 and not block 40... We are not sure where the upgrade might happen. PAC could be the party.



Blk 40 is very near blk 52 thats why article say blk 40!!


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## pshamim

mean_bird said:


> One more thing, the 14 ex-PAF planes that were embargoed are as follows
> 
> Therefore PAF has 32 A/B, 12A/B OCU in service while 2 are in US getting MLU.



Just a clarification. 
All F-16 A/B that PAF received were upgraded to OCU standard and they received the Falcon-UP structural modification upgrade as well during late 1980s..

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## MZUBAIR

Pakistan is not getting 36 J-10/FC-20 this year.

The order is altered.

Now Pakistan is getting almost 50 J-10/FC-20 "high-tech" variant, to be delivered to the PAF in 2014-15, some speculate that this could be a version of the upgraded J-10B model.

On March 7th 2009, at agreement signing ceremony of JF-17 Thunder aircraft, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed said the agreement between Pakistan and China for the delivery of High-Tech aircraft J-10 was intact and these aircraft after improving them further would be delivered to PAF in 2014-15. He said these aircraft are being modernized in accordance with the PAF&#8217;s requirements and delivered under the title of FC-20.

Currently PAF is focusing to develop Full-fledged production of JF-17 in Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra.

Planned Upgrade of JF-17 till 2015.

The first 50 JF-17s entering Pakistan Air Force service will most likely incorporate only Chinese avionics and other systems. 
Extendable in-flight refueling probes will be added soon. 
Minor airframe modifications to add two more external hardpoints have also been mentioned by some sources.

Greater use of composite materials in the airframe to decrease weight. 
Chinese Infra-Red Search and Track (IRST) system, possibly the Type Hongguang-I Electro-optical radar originally developed for the Chengdu J-10 fighter by Sichuan Changhong Electric Appliance Corporation. JF-17 is already compatible with this system but currently it must be carried externally in a pod mounted on one of the hardpoints. 
New engine; most likely the Chinese WS-13 TianShan, although the PAF is considering fitting European powerplants such as the French Snecma M88 to its aircraft. 

Minor airframe modifications to reduce the aircraft's radar cross-section by adding stealthy features.

Beyond the initial 50 PAF JF-17s, the remaining production aircraft may also be equipped with European avionics, radars and weaponry. Pakistan had begun negotiations with British and Italian defence firms over potential avionics and radars for JF-17 during initial development. Some of the radar options for JF-17 are the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo S7and the French Thomson-CSF RC400 (a variant of the RDY-2), along with the MBDA MICA IR/RF short/medium range air-to-air missiles.


This would make the fighter more attractive.


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## hj786

MZUBAIR said:


> Pakistan is not getting 36 J-10/FC-20 this year.
> 
> The order is altered.
> 
> Now Pakistan is getting almost 50 J-10/FC-20 "high-tech" variant, to be delivered to the PAF in 2014-15, some speculate that this could be a version of the upgraded J-10B model.
> 
> On March 7th 2009, at agreement signing ceremony of JF-17 Thunder aircraft, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed said the agreement between Pakistan and China for the delivery of High-Tech aircraft J-10 was intact and these aircraft after improving them further would be delivered to PAF in 2014-15. He said these aircraft are being modernized in accordance with the PAFs requirements and delivered under the title of FC-20.
> 
> Currently PAF is focusing to develop Full-fledged production of JF-17 in Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra.
> 
> Planned Upgrade of JF-17 till 2015.
> 
> The first 50 JF-17s entering Pakistan Air Force service will most likely incorporate only Chinese avionics and other systems.
> Extendable in-flight refueling probes will be added soon.
> Minor airframe modifications to add two more external hardpoints have also been mentioned by some sources.
> 
> Greater use of composite materials in the airframe to decrease weight.
> Chinese Infra-Red Search and Track (IRST) system, possibly the Type Hongguang-I Electro-optical radar originally developed for the Chengdu J-10 fighter by Sichuan Changhong Electric Appliance Corporation. JF-17 is already compatible with this system but currently it must be carried externally in a pod mounted on one of the hardpoints.
> New engine; most likely the Chinese WS-13 TianShan, although the PAF is considering fitting European powerplants such as the French Snecma M88 to its aircraft.
> 
> Minor airframe modifications to reduce the aircraft's radar cross-section by adding stealthy features.
> 
> Beyond the initial 50 PAF JF-17s, the remaining production aircraft may also be equipped with European avionics, radars and weaponry. Pakistan had begun negotiations with British and Italian defence firms over potential avionics and radars for JF-17 during initial development. Some of the radar options for JF-17 are the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo S7and the French Thomson-CSF RC400 (a variant of the RDY-2), along with the MBDA MICA IR/RF short/medium range air-to-air missiles.
> 
> 
> This would make the fighter more attractive.


Can some moderator please warn this user not to copy text from Wikipedia and post it here as if it is accurate information?


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## sohailbutt

MAD F-16 low pass in Afghanistan

http://www.********.com/view?i=94a_1237991079

Can somebody recognize that single pod beneath the jet, wut kind of pod is that? sure it does not look like a sniper pod!


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## Hasnain2009

F-16 Manuvers

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## Hasnain2009

*INTERVIEW-UPDATE 1-Iraq aims to buy 18 F-16 fighters this year By Reuters*​
* Iraq's goal to buy up to 96 F-16s through 2020

* Aims to take delivery of first 2 F-16s by 2012

* Cites perceived threats from Iran, Syria

By Jim Wolf

*WASHINGTON, March 31* (Reuters) - Iraq wants to buy an initial squadron of Lockheed Martin Corp F-16 fighter aircraft this year to help guard against perceived threats from Iran and Syria after U.S. forces leave, the head of the Iraqi Air Force told Reuters on Tuesday.

Lt. Gen. Anwar Ahmed, the commander, said he hoped to sign a contract for 18 advanced F-16s as the centerpiece of billions of dollars Iraq is expected to spend on arms in coming years.

"This is very important to us," he said in a telephone interview while visiting Washington. "It is a priority."

Provided funds are made available by Iraq's Parliament, he said his goal was to buy as many as 96 F-16s through 2020. *He alluded to the F-16C/D Block 50/52 models now being produced for Poland, Israel, Greece and Pakistan.*
"We need this aircraft for defense of our country," Ahmed said. He cited Iran as a potential threat along with Syria, which he said has been a gateway for "terrorists" aiming to destabilize the government of Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki.

If the funds are freed and a deal is wrapped up this year, the first two Iraqi-piloted F-16s would be patrolling Iraqi skies by 2012, he said.

By that time, all U.S. armed forces are due to have left Iraq under an agreement negotiated last year. (Reporting by Jim Wolf; Editing by Tim Dobbyn)


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## kiuppal

What about our new F-16s ? Delayed again ?


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## Hasnain2009

Military news update:


The Pentagon released a list of defense contract awards, which include an authorization for Lockheed to sell 12 F-16C and six F-16D planes to Pakistan. The F-16C is a single-seat aircraft while the F-16D is a two-seat flying machine. Pakistan already has a fleet of F-16AM, which is an upgraded single-seat version of F-16A. Pakistan is to get 18 new F-16C/D fighters by 2010 besides upgrades for its current fleet of 34 F-16 combat aircraft as part of a $2.1 billion deal for new weapons, avionics, engines, and other equipment for F-16 fighters announced in September last year. Lockheed, the Pentagon&#8217;s No. 1 contractor, won a $144 million contract in 2006 for materials needed to build the F-16s. Pakistani F-16s will be equipped with AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM, AIM-9M-8/9, JDAM, Harpoon Block II, Joint-Helmet Mounted Cueing System, CFTs and possibly IRIS-T.


Politics: Pakistani War might be next

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## pakpower

Conformal Fuel Tanks
The most distinguishing external feature of an Advanced Block 50/52, when installed, is a set of conformal fuel tanks attached to the upper fuselage. All of these latest F-16s have structural, plumbing, and wiring provisions for the conformal tanks. The tank set holds 450 gallons (more than 3,000 pounds) of additional JP-5/8. The extra fuel increases range, loiter time, and combat persistence as well as reduces the demand for tanker support. Range increase is on the order of twenty to forty percent, depending on the stores configuration and mission profile.

The conformals, which can be used in lieu of wing tanks, free the inner wing store stations and can double the primary air-to-ground payload. The tanks have an imperceptible effect on the F-16&#8217;s agility, handling qualities, flight limits, and signature. Moreover, the tanks do not interfere with daily inspections and servicing, and the impact on maintenance access is minimal. A complete set can be removed or replaced in two hours by a small crew and a hoist.

600-Gallon Wing Tanks
The Advanced Block 50/52 variant is certified to carry the 600-gallon wing fuel tanks. These tanks increase range or persistence up to thirty percent over the standard 370-gallon wing tanks. The tanks are mounted on non-jettisonable pylons that can also carry the more common 370-gallon tanks.

Landing Gear
The Advanced Block 50/52 versions have heavy-weight landing gear designed for up to 52,000 pounds maximum takeoff gross weight.

Radar
A major enhancement is the Northrop Grumman APG-68(V)9 multimode radar, one of the most advanced radars in the skies today. This radar has more than fivefold faster processing speed and tenfold greater memory capacity over the previous APG-68(V)7/8 radar. The new processors have even higher growth potential.

A high-resolution synthetic aperture radar mode allows the pilot to locate and recognize tactical ground targets from considerable distances. In conjunction with inertially aided weapons, such as GBU-31 Joint Direct Attack Munition, the AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon, and CBU-103/104/105 Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser, the F-16 gains an enhanced capability for all-weather precision strike from standoff distances. The radar features an inertial measurement unit that improves dynamic tracking performance and provides an auto-boresight capability, which increases accuracy and eliminates the need for time-consuming mechanical boresighting.

Air-to-air improvements in-clude a thirty percent increase in detection range and improvements in functionality and tracking quality in various modes.

Radar reliability is increased by fifty percent to nearly 400 hours mean time between failures. Commercial off-the-shelf technology is expected to improve supportability significantly. Using off-the-shelf technology resolves existing issues with availability and cost of spare parts and also makes technology refreshes more affordable.

Targeting System
The Advanced Block 50/52 can employ the latest generation targeting systems, such as the Lockheed Martin Sniper XR/Pantera targeting pod that is mounted on the right inlet sensor station. In conjunction with laser-guided bombs, the pod provides day/night precision strikes from high altitudes. Among other uses, the targeting systems can be used for seeker cueing of a variety of guided weapons and covert air-to-air operations.

Navigation and Reconnaissance Pods
A navigation pod, such as LANTIRN/Pathfinder, can be fitted to the left inlet sensor station. A variety of reconnaissance pods can be carried on the centerline fuselage station.

Cockpit
The Advanced Block 50/52 cockpit features a helmet-mounted cueing system, color multifunction displays and recording equipment, cockpit lighting and external strip lighting compatible with night vision goggles, and large-capacity data transfer sets.

A choice of helmet-mounted cueing systems is available. These systems allow a pilot to direct sensors or weapons to his line of sight or to help him find a designated target. The helmet display also provides critical flight and target information to the pilot &#8212; similar to a head-up display, but in any direction the pilot looks.

Dorsal Avionics Compartment
All two-seat models of the Advanced Block 50/52 have a distinctive dorsal avionics compartment that allows these aircraft to accommodate all of the systems of the single-seat model as well as some special mission equipment and additional chaff/flare dispensers. The rear cockpit can be configured for either a weapon system operator or an instructor pilot and can be converted with a single switch in the cockpit.

Communication, Navigation, and Identification
A variety of options are available in radio communication and navigation systems, including UHF, VHF AM/FM, HF, satellite communication, tactical air navigation, VHF omnidirectional receiver, distance measuring equipment, and instrument landing system. An integrated precision navigation suite consisting of a ring laser gyro inertial navigation system, global positioning system, and a digital terrain system is standard.

A choice of data link systems is offered, including the NATO-standard Link 16, in addition to the data modem associated with the UHF/VHF radios. Link 16 provides secure, jam-resistant, high-volume data exchange on a multi-node network.

A standard feature on all F-16s today is a combined friend from foe interrogator/ transponder, which permits autonomous identification to maximize launch ranges of radar-guided air-to-air missiles.

Core Avionics and Central Computer
The Advanced Block 50/52 offers two different core avionics hardware and software architectures. Some aircraft have the modular mission computer, while other customers have opted for the latest general avionics computer. This generation of avionics computers benefits from technology advances including increased processing speeds and mem-ory capacity. They also incorporate off-the-shelf technology, which improves supportability, provides refresh roadmaps, and reduces future development costs. Some versions have a high-speed fiber optic data bus, which provides large growth potential for data throughput.Countermeasures

Equipment
All Advanced Block 50/52 versions have modern internal electronic countermeasures systems. The Greek aircraft have the Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suite, which consists of the Northrop Grumman ALR-93 radar warning receiver and electronic warfare controller, the Raytheon ALQ-187 RF jammer, and the BAE Systems ALE-47 chaff/ flare dispenser. The Israeli aircraft have an electronic warfare suite produced by Elisra. Most other Advanced Block 50/52 customers will have the ITT Advanced Internal Defensive Electronic Warfare System. These systems provide integrated electronic counter-measures, radar warning, and chaff/flare dispensing for self-protection against a wide range of threats. Internal mounting (in place of a countermeasure pod) eliminates drag, provides full spherical antenna coverage, and frees up an external station for other stores.

Engines
The Advanced Block 50/52 aircraft have a common engine bay that allows customers a choice of engines in the 29,000-pound thrust class. The Block 50s are powered by the General Electric F110-GE-129 and have the Modular Common Inlet Duct (known as the large mouth inlet). The Block 52s are powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 and have a Normal Shock Inlet (known as the small mouth inlet).

On-Board Oxygen Generation
An on-board oxygen-generating system replaces the liquid oxygen system of earlier versions to provide breathable air to the pilot. The system improves maintainability, deployability, and safety

Other Equipment Options
Besides those alternatives already mentioned, F-16 customers still have the option of a drag chute, paint schemes, and the world&#8217;s largest inventory of certified stores&#8212;more than 100 items certified in approximately 5,000 configurations. The Advanced Block 50/52s are capable of delivering the US family of GPS-guided precision weapons and a variety of high-off-boresight air-to-air missiles, including the AIM-9X Sidewinder, IRIS-T, and Python

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## IceCold

I remember reading somewhere that a down scale version of an AESA radar is also being developed for the Block-52 and costumers will have a choice to either go for the APG-68 V9 radar or perhaps the AESA version developed by a different firm. Does any one has more news on that. 
Moreover i think Blain sir once mentioned about PAF discussing the possible feasibility with Lockheed martin about the possible integration of an AN/APG-80 radar over the block 52. Does any one has more news related to that, some senior member perhaps can shed some more light to this.

Thanks in advance.


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## IceCold

This article might be of interest related to the F-16 so i am posting it here:

*Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR)*​
The Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) will be a full performance fire control AESA. SABR will offer all the advantages of an active electronically scanned multi-function array, but at significant cost savings. Designed to support next generation weapons and tactics, the SABR ensures the needed combat advantage over the adversary. *While designed initially to fit the F-16 with no structural, power or cooling modifications*, the SABR is scalable to fit other aircraft platforms and mission areas.

Meets/exceeds operational requirements

*
Multi-function/Multi-mission
* Increased Range
* Time Sensitive Precision Strike
* Data Link/Communications
* Interleaved Modes

Improves Reliability & Maintainability

* Commonality
* Decreased Life Cycle Costs
* AESA Array Maintenance
* Common/Open System Architecture for Future Growth

Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR)


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## Super Falcon

how many of these paf buys 52 block i mean


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## Patriot

PAF ordered 18 F16's B52.


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## qsaark

Can we merge this thread with the F-16 thread?


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## Neo

*Threads merged.*

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## pakpower

IF we aquire 100 F-16 Block 52s then wheater IAF upgrades Mirages or Fulcrums it really doesnt makes any difference since only few countries are using such an advanced variant of Viper e.g, HAF, Israel AF, PolAF and the IAF even havnt seen these variants. Now dont tell me about the Vipers of USAF and RSAF since they were Block 50s.
PAF lags behind in numbers, only 18 will not fulfil the requirment nor they will give us a punch but yes there are many other options.

Seconly the Astra is currently a baby developed by DRDO, its operational range is 80 kms where as AIM-120s range is 105 kms. Thus the PAF will have the first fire capability. Where as the R-77 range is 100 kms and the most important advantage of AIM-120C is that its accuracy rate is far more superior to R-77 and yes dont compare Astra with it. It is just like you are comparing a Mig-29 with LCA.

And ofcourse the world is turning towards the precision guided air to ground stores, and PAF is aquiring the following weapons technology,

500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits;

1600 Enhanced-GBU-12/24 GBUs

700 BLU-109 2000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse.


The above said weapons are being aquired by the PAF and they are and they will be used by the USAFs front line fighters well beyond 2025 because they incorporate all new technologies and modification.

Besides the Precision guided weapons, PAF is aquiring

800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs;

500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);

12 AMRAAM training missiles, these have seeker warheads, but lack engines;

200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X;

240 LAU-129/A Launchers, these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles.


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## araz

pakpower said:


> IF we aquire 100 F-16 Block 52s then wheater IAF upgrades Mirages or Fulcrums it really doesnt makes any difference since only few countries are using such an advanced variant of Viper e.g, HAF, Israel AF, PolAF and the IAF even havnt seen these variants. Now dont tell me about the Vipers of USAF and RSAF since they were Block 50s.
> PAF lags behind in numbers, only 18 will not fulfil the requirment nor they will give us a punch but yes there are many other options.
> 
> Seconly the Astra is currently a baby developed by DRDO, its operational range is 80 kms where as AIM-120s range is 105 kms. Thus the PAF will have the first fire capability. Where as the R-77 range is 100 kms and the most important advantage of AIM-120C is that its accuracy rate is far more superior to R-77 and yes dont compare Astra with it. It is just like you are comparing a Mig-29 with LCA.
> 
> And ofcourse the world is turning towards the precision guided air to ground stores, and PAF is aquiring the following weapons technology,
> 
> 500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits;
> 
> 1600 Enhanced-GBU-12/24 GBUs
> 
> 700 BLU-109 2000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse.
> 
> 
> The above said weapons are being aquired by the PAF and they are and they will be used by the USAFs front line fighters well beyond 2025 because they incorporate all new technologies and modification.
> 
> Besides the Precision guided weapons, PAF is aquiring
> 
> 800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs;
> 
> 500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);
> 
> 12 AMRAAM training missiles, these have seeker warheads, but lack engines;
> 
> 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X;
> 
> 240 LAU-129/A Launchers, these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles.



pakpower.
Pakistan lacks the money to feed its own people at the moment. Where do you think the money to buy 100 Bl.52 s will come from? At nearly 80 million per plane, how much will it cost? Remember our home grownThunder. We have just taken a soft loan form thechinese to buy the first 50. Marey Bhai, Pakistan in the hands of these nincumpoops is a bankrupt nation . No wonder we are having to beg specially hard these days.
WaSalam
Araz

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## TOPGUN

Araz is totally correct its all about the funds my friend! no money no honey haha we all wish the we can have the f-16's in large numbers after all it is my fav aircraft but again one must come to reailty and understand the times we are facing and perhaps have been facing !


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## IceCold

TOPGUN said:


> Araz is totally correct its all about the funds my friend! no money no honey haha we all wish the we can have the f-16's in large numbers after it is my fav aircraft but again one must come to reailty and understand the times we are faceuing and perhaps have been facing !



Adding to this i will say moreover will US sell 100 jets to Pakistan at the first place, US congress will go mad if this happens. Already we hear every other day some congress man standing up and criticizing the F-16 deal, imagine what will happen if the number goes to 100, what will happen of India who can't digest 18 for now. We have to be realistic before coming out with such a wish list.

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## Munir

Whether we can afford it or not...

Well, which developing nation does have enough money to feed their poor? Sometimes you must try to understand that basic equipment for a nation is unquestionable. In reality there are nor much people that like to kill others. Certainly if it is for political reasons only. But if you wait till you can feed everyone then you do not have a nation left. Look at history. Look even at animals. Undefended nations or animals are dead. And about the costs... Well, war is never cheap. Killing young people is also not the best option. But it depends on what kind of opponent you can expect. If you have nations like Africa on the border then ou can do fine with outdated equipment. If you have India, Russia, US, Iran as your probably opponent then I think ou can not do much with ancient sword, spear, bow or your 5 daily prayers. Personally I would be happy that you will be set in front of the soldiers that have to face the enemy... I can tell you that you would not think twice... Why I say that? My father was engineer in the two wars against India. First to enter and last to leave... I might be a man but compared to my dad I am just nothing. Compared to you I do see lots of difference, certainly because you offend not only the military that are in service but those that have sacrified everything to give some like the oppertunity to post. I might be harsh but I rather give an honest reply then anything else.

p.s. same goes for all other military... We might go hard on hard but personally I think it is the politicians that are responsible, the military just have to cope with the effects. 

here from aj:

Where crime and politics combine
By Matthew McClure in Muzzafarpur, Bihar

Munna Shukla, running in the state of Bihar, is facing 24 criminal charges
Meeting Munna Shukla can be an intimidating experience.
The alleged gangster-cum-politician grasps your hand in his powerful mitt and slowly begins to squeeze, stares impassively into your eyes, and refuses to avert his gaze or let go until you look away to hide the painful grimace on your face.

Without speaking a single word, Shukla lets you know he is the force to be reckoned with in this dusty corner of the impoverished state of Bihar, in eastern India.

Gangster politics

It was the final day for politicians to file their nomination papers, and we had travelled all morning over potholed roads from the state capital Patna to interview Shukla about his candidacy for the Janata Dal United (JDU) party in Muzzafarpur in north Bihar.

Special report
We were also hoping to learn why he was a front-runner to become the next MP for the area, despite facing a number of criminal charges, including three counts of murder.
We had been waiting for over half-an-hour in an anteroom of his palatial home, squeezed together on sofas with a dozen or so of his political supporters, watched from above by giant photos of his unsmiling likeness, when Shukla strode in confidently.

We had been told by locals that he was widely-feared in this community, but as he led us outside for an interview on his front steps, an appreciative roar went up from the assembled crowd of his campaign faithful, who had been waiting patiently in the heat and now crushed around us to listen.

Shukla told us the area had long elected outsiders who played up caste divisions in the community, but now he predicted confidently that he would win by a landslide and unite the local people.

"I am the son of this soil, the blue-eyed boy of this area," said Shukla, punching into the air with his outstretched fist.

As if on cue, the crowd began shouting in agreement. When Shukla raised his hand again ever so slightly, they immediately fell silent and he continued.

"I have the support of the young, the love of the women. That's what makes me a baahubali."

Literally, baahubali translates from Hindi as muscle man, but in common parlance here in India it means gangster.

One in five

It is not how you might expect a politician to speak about himself, but Shukla is not your average candidate and politics in the world's largest democracy bears little resemblance to the relatively genteel campaigning I grew up with in Canada.

More Videos...One in five members of India's last parliament had criminal cases filed against them while they were in office.
The situation might not be much better this time around, according to numbers compiled by the New Delhi-based Association for Democratic Reforms (ADR) and based on the candidates' own disclosure statements.

Of the more than 1,400 candidates contesting in the first phase of these month-long elections, 16 per cent are facing charges. Many of those are for serious offences like murder, kidnapping and extortion.

Bihar is the worst state, with nearly 25 per cent of candidates having had a serious brush with the law.

Legal loopholes

Indian legislation prohibits a person convicted and sentenced to imprisonment for more than two years from contesting an election. But many politicians manage to postpone or avoid disqualification through legal delays or endless appeals. The country's judicial process is notorious for its glacial pace and the impartiality of judges is occasionally called into question.

There are times, too, when the courts might appear to be inconsistent in their handling of cases involving politicians.

India's Supreme Court refused recently to let Bollywood actor Sanjay Dutt run in these elections because of his conviction for weapons offences.

However, the same court in 2007 stayed a guilty finding against former cricketer and sitting Bharatiya Janata Party MP Navjot Singh Sidhu for killing a man in a road rage incident, enabling him to contest and win a by-election.

Anil Bairwal, ADR's spokesman, has lobbied in vain for changes to the law that would tighten what he sees as loopholes that allow those who appeal their convictions to still run for office.

As an alternative, his group has run a website and toll-free telephone line since the last national elections in 2004, where voters can check the backgrounds of candidates.

"Voters have become a lot more informed," says Bairwal.

"As they ask more questions, we hope the number of candidates elected with criminal background will decline."

Local strongman

Back in Muzzafarpur, Shukla waves and smiles as he and his throng of supporters wind their way through the streets to the elections office where he will file his nomination papers.

If he is worried about his impending trial for the murder of the leader of a rival family, he is not showing it.

When asked whether his long list of charges should disqualify him from running, Shukla glares as he considers his response.

"I am not a petty criminal or a thug," he says.

"In my entire life, I've never even killed an ant."

The crowd begins to shout again and Shukla beams broadly. It seems the only verdict he need fear will come at the polls, and few here seem ready to question whether their faith in this local strongman is misplaced.


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## IceCold

A few days ago i raised a question over a possible induction of an AESA radar on the current block-52 F-16s that we are going to get. Seems like no one has an answer for now. My thanks in advance went in vain.


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## Zarbe Momin

Pakistan should show desire to buy *Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR)* from USA to check the waters.


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## mean_bird

IceCold said:


> A few days ago i raised a question over a possible induction of an AESA radar on the current block-52 F-16s that we are going to get. Seems like no one has an answer for now. My thanks in advance went in vain.



I think that is not possible...to accommodate an AESA radar, you need some basic changes...like the one done on the nose of the BLK 60


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## Keysersoze

mean_bird said:


> I think that is not possible...to accommodate an AESA radar, you need some basic changes...like the one done on the nose of the BLK 60



Well there was recently a new radar unveiled that is aiming at aircraft like the f-16



LINTHICUM, Md.-- Northrop Grumman [NOC] officials are aiming to round out the development of the company's newest Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) fighter sensor, the Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR), with a flight demonstration aboard an F-16 fighter jet before the year is out.

SABR is being developed as an avionics enhancement for the existing fleet of F-16s in the United States and 44 other countries. Northrop Grumman's goal for the new technology is to "keep the F-16 relevant" as the 30-year-old platform enters the final phase of its service life, according to Katherine Gray, the company's vice president for global sensor solutions.


"Not all of those countries are going to be able to afford or acquire the F-22 [Raptor] or the [F-35 Lightning] Joint Strike Fighter," said Gray. "But we would like to think that they will have the ability to collaborate and work in the F-16s to work with those advanced aircraft."

To that end, Northrop Grumman is designing SABR to cost approximately what a mechanically scanned array (MESA) would typically cost. The average cost of a newer MESA is approximately $2 million.

Further, SABR is "designed to be affordable throughout its lifetime," said Arlene Camp, director of Advanced F-16 Radar Programs at Northrop Grumman.

"It changes the affordability paradigm of what AESA costs," she said. "It's not only going to be affordable to purchase, it will be affordable to own throughout its life cycle."

Camp said that initial estimates indicate that SABR sustainment costs will be lower than the current mechanically scanned options over 20 years.

Northrop Grumman began designing the SABR in 2007 using only internal funds, company officials said.

"We did it because we believe it's an investment that will come back to us," said Camp.

She added that the Air Force has recently called the AESA upgrade for its F-16 fleet its "number one unfunded priority." Funding for the program is not included the service's 10-year spending blueprint beginning in fiscal year 2010, and the Defense Department has not yet released any requests for proposals or information on the project.

In the meantime, Northrop Grumman plans to wrap up SABR development on its own dime by the end of the year. SABR successfully completed its first flight in November on a testbed aircraft.

"We plan to fly on an F-16 this year," Camp said.

Although designed specifically for the F-16, SABR is scalable and adaptable to other platforms, according to Camp. She mentioned the B-1 and B-52 bombers, as well as unmanned attack aircraft.

Camp also said the company would pursue foreign sales of the system "as soon as possible."

[Copyright 2006 Access Intelligence, LLC. All rights reserved.]

TICKER(S): Northrop Grumman [NOC]:


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## araz

IceCold said:


> A few days ago i raised a question over a possible induction of an AESA radar on the current block-52 F-16s that we are going to get. Seems like no one has an answer for now. My thanks in advance went in vain.



In the days when PAF was ordering the F16s this topic came up for discussion. At that time the gist of the discussion was that there was no precedent to that happenning. If PAF wanted AESA, it would have to pay not only for the integration but also for the research and development cost for the integration(Source. The Hon. Pshamim).PAF did not have the money. That was the reason why we did not have it done then.
As to now, APG68V9 is an excellent PD radar. So there does not appear to be any need for getting an AESA for the moment. Perhaps when we need MLU for the Bl 52s we might consider upgrading, but who knows what our relations with America will be like.Also with theadvent of newer technology and newer suppliers, PAFs options will open up in due course.
WaSalam
Araz

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## IceCold

araz said:


> In the days when PAF was ordering the F16s this topic came up for discussion. At that time the gist of the discussion was that there was no precedent to that happenning. If PAF wanted AESA, it would have to pay not only for the integration but also for the research and development cost for the integration(Source. The Hon. Pshamim).PAF did not have the money. That was the reason why we did not have it done then.
> As to now, APG68V9 is an excellent PD radar. So there does not appear to be any need for getting an AESA for the moment. Perhaps when we need MLU for the Bl 52s we might consider upgrading, but who knows what our relations with America will be like.Also with theadvent of newer technology and newer suppliers, PAFs options will open up in due course.
> WaSalam
> Araz



Yes sir i remember and i also remember Blain sir(where is he by the way haven't seen him around for quite some time) saying about the possibility discussed between PAF and Lockheed about possible induction without altering the frame and i think radar was AN/APG-80. Sir i have also posted an article on the previous page about a new SABR developed specifically to be inducted in the F-16s While designed initially to fit the F-16 with no structural, power or cooling modifications. What do you think about that, is it possible to equip PAF's block52 F-16s. I think an AESA radar should be preferred over the regular pulse Doppler radar on any given day, there is simply no comparison between the two. Moreover it will also give us the required experience to work and know an AESA radar which would be very fruit full with the future development of JF-17. Your thoughts on this sir?


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## mean_bird

Keysersoze said:


> Well there was recently a new radar unveiled that is aiming at aircraft like the f-16



Thanks, I wasn't aware of that development...so whats the latest? has it been fitted on any F-16?


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## araz

IceCold said:


> Yes sir i remember and i also remember Blain sir(where is he by the way haven't seen him around for quite some time) saying about the possibility discussed between PAF and Lockheed about possible induction without altering the frame and i think radar was AN/APG-80. Sir i have also posted an article on the previous page about a new SABR developed specifically to be inducted in the F-16s While designed initially to fit the F-16 with no structural, power or cooling modifications. What do you think about that, is it possible to equip PAF's block52 F-16s. I think an AESA radar should be preferred over the regular pulse Doppler radar on any given day, there is simply no comparison between the two. Moreover it will also give us the required experience to work and know an AESA radar which would be very fruit full with the future development of JF-17. Your thoughts on this sir?



Icecold.
US is not changing all its radars from PDs to AESAand they still have quite a few F16s in running. I think I hav3e read an article on one of the fora, that there is not much between APG68V9 and the new AESA with regards to performance. i think the technology needs to mature and become cheaper, which it is not at the moment. even in the next 3-5 yrs the price of AESA will drop down considerably. If you look at the future acquisitions of PAF, with regards to 2nd tranche thunder and FC20, this would be the right time for PAF to approach various quarters.
the other thing that we do not know is what is going on in China. General opinion is that they are a decade behind, but with huge reserves and financial depth, who knows where they will be in the next 3-5 yrs. I need not emphasize the advantage of keeping your surprise element to your self. Also please also consider that our response is India specific . What do they have in the bag that we need to defend against. I donth think the threat perception is enough for PAF to splash money around now.
My 2 Paisas worth
WaSalam
Araz

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## saiko

AESA would be nice for the PAF but it is probably an un-necessary expense at the moment given its probable opposition.

You could get by with a quality PESA radar, no problem. Or even a qualty MSA radar.


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## Munir

araz said:


> the other thing that we do not know is what is going on in China. General opinion is that they are a decade behind, but with huge reserves and financial depth, who knows where they will be in the next 3-5 yrs. I need not emphasize the advantage of keeping your surprise element to your self. Also please also consider that our response is India specific . What do they have in the bag that we need to defend against. I donth think the threat perception is enough for PAF to splash money around now.
> My 2 Paisas worth
> WaSalam
> Araz



According to people I do pay attention to the Chinese will have the most impossible technology (high performance fighter engines) mastered. The rest in between now and three years. They mastered everytime certain fields and if they are succeeding in improving J11, busy with J10B and finishing first edition JF17 then do remind that 10 years ago they produced large quatities of F6, A5 and were trying a new wing on a F7... Do you still think they are that far behind if they showed Israel and USA that they can keep their AWACS and now the Chinese produced multiple AWACS systems... What do you need to know?


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## pakpower

> According to people I do pay attention to the Chinese will have the most impossible technology (high performance fighter engines) mastered. The rest in between now and three years. They mastered everytime certain fields and if they are succeeding in improving J11, busy with J10B and finishing first edition JF17 then do remind that 10 years ago they produced large quatities of F6, A5 and were trying a new wing on a F7... Do you still think they are that far behind if they showed Israel and USA that they can keep their AWACS and now the Chinese produced multiple AWACS systems... What do you need to know?



Well said brother Chineese are master of everything and also very hard working in every field of life and that also shows, one more important thing that we have to learn this attitude towrds from china to be successful in life other wise there is a no way for us we find our selves in the middle of desert and nobody to help us. 

We have to change our attitudes and way of lives in order to achieve the greatness in every field of life.


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## Super Falcon

currently which F 16 we are getting are they are coming with aesa radar


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## sancho

Super Falcon said:


> currently which F 16 we are getting are they are coming with aesa radar



If I'm not wrong only F16 block 60 has AESA radar and PAF will get block 52+ with AGP 68 radar.

AN/APG-68 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## IceCold

sancho said:


> If I'm not wrong only F16 block 60 has AESA radar and PAF will get block 52+ with AGP 68 radar.
> 
> AN/APG-68 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Did we say otherwise. We are just discussing possibilities here.


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## araz

Munir said:


> According to people I do pay attention to the Chinese will have the most impossible technology (high performance fighter engines) mastered. The rest in between now and three years. They mastered everytime certain fields and if they are succeeding in improving J11, busy with J10B and finishing first edition JF17 then do remind that 10 years ago they produced large quatities of F6, A5 and were trying a new wing on a F7... Do you still think they are that far behind if they showed Israel and USA that they can keep their AWACS and now the Chinese produced multiple AWACS systems... What do you need to know?



munir
IfI may say so this is rather optimistic. I am fully aware of the progress that china has made in the field s of avionics and fighter plane technology. They have projects that are in the pipeline. But to say that they will master everything in 3 yrs is unlikely. PAF is still looking for an engine for Thunder, though this may have been a ploy to gain interests from various vendors to negotiate other items. However, with J10 as you well know, the engine issue is one of the major impediment in the sale to Pakistan.3 yrs in research is not a long time, one problem in the process could set you back 3-5 yrs. Yes we are all optimistic but should have a bit of caution associated with it. No disrespect meant .
WaSalam
Araz

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## TOPGUN

Ok of topic here i wonder if we will just keep or same schme on the new birds and even the old ones ?


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## sancho

IceCold said:


> Did we say otherwise. We are just discussing possibilities here.



Did I say anything related to the discussion, or did I just answer Super Falcons question?


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## mean_bird

*Northrop Grumman Conducts Successful First Flight of New Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR)*

LINTHICUM, Md. - Nov. 18, 2008 - Northrop Grumman Corporation (NYSE: NOC) has successfully conducted the first demonstration flight of the companys newest Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) fighter sensor, the Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR). SABR is being developed as a significant avionics enhancement for the existing fleet of F-16s and other fighter aircraft worldwide.

This first flight marks a major milestone in our effort to develop an AESA radar designed specifically to meet current F-16 power, cooling, and interface requirements, said Arlene Camp, director of Advanced F-16 Radar Programs at Northrop Grumman. "Although designed specifically for the F-16, SABR is scalable and adaptable to other platforms and missions."

SABR completed its first flight ahead of schedule on November 16, successfully detecting and displaying numerous aerial targets, and exceeding first flight predictions, Camp noted.

"This demonstration flight is the first in a series scheduled over the next few weeks as we transition SABR from a laboratory environment to an operational flight environment, said Camp. The Sabreliner testbed aircraft has an actual F-16 radome and avionics. Weve used the Sabreliner for more than 20 years for developing and testing F-16 mechanically scanned radar hardware and software. Its as close as you're going to get to a real F-16 flight demonstration."

"SABR is Northrop Grummans investment toward enhancing and sustaining the F-16's combat capability for decades to come," added Camp. "We plan to demonstrate SABR on an F-16 next year."

Compared to the mechanically-scanned array radars it is designed to replace, SABR will provide the increased performance, multi-functionality, and greater reliability inherent in AESA radars. The improved situational awareness, greater detection, high-resolution synthetic aperture radar, and interleaved air-to-air and air-to-surface mode operations will provide pilots true all-environment precision strike capability.


---------------------------

So its still in the development stage and might take a while before it is available for use by current F-16 operators worldwide.


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## IceCold

sancho said:


> Did I say anything related to the discussion, or did I just answer Super Falcons question?



Then i must have mistook your answer related to his query as a sarcasm. Anyways wiki is hardly a source we accept here though the radar mentioned in it is correct.


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## Arsalan

sorry members i have been a bit out of contact for last few weeks!! i want to know about the current status of the upgrades the F16z were having.

i searched last few page but couldnt find any post regarding the Pakistani F16 upgrades, all of us have been talking about the upgrades that are not of our concern and are not included either in the MLU of the turkish upgrade!

so can anyone please infor us where the upgradation plan have reached.

i alod not forget to mention here that i have always been negative with the MLU and now i have not heared anything in progress regarding MLU. can anyone tell if they are being carried on or have been dropped as all other US deals!!!!!!!!

i will really appreciate your response


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## Arsalan

have we got back some planes with the MLU, now what are we going to get in the turkish upgrades!!


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## araz

arsalanaslam123 said:


> have we got back some planes with the MLU, now what are we going to get in the turkish upgrades!!



Brother.
The MLUs are not due back till 2011, from USA. We have a contract in the making wwith the Turks to MLU the rest of our fleet but nothing more concrete has come out of it in the press. The upgrades are well described and you need to look up the previous posting and threads in this regards.
WaSalam
Araz


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## Super Falcon

what is mlu


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## Super Falcon

is mlu is better or aesa


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## Muradk

Super Falcon said:


> is mlu is better or aesa



*MLU is a extended life span of the aircraft Well I found some simple words from F-16.net.*
When the F-16 entered service in 1979, it was expected that the aircraft would be replaced by a successor in 1999. Due to several reasons, both economical and political, the F-16 will not be replaced by a successor (which is not yet available right now) and will not be phased-out until 2010. In order to maintain the same level of operational capabilities and operational effectiveness of existing aircraft over the next ten to twenty years in this world of ever increasing technology, an extensive modernization program was developed, that later became known as the Mid-Life Update or MLU.
*and AESA ( Active Electronically Scanned Array ) is a Radar.*


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## Arsalan

Super Falcon said:


> is mlu is better or aesa



sir they are different things,

the MLU stands for Mid Life Upgrade

and AESA is a radar,

for PAF MLU is the mean of extending there fleet life, we will be able to operate our F16 for another decade or so after the MLU!


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## Arsalan

araz said:


> Brother.
> The MLUs are not due back till 2011, from USA. We have a contract in the making wwith the Turks to MLU the rest of our fleet but nothing more concrete has come out of it in the press. The upgrades are well described and you need to look up the previous posting and threads in this regards.
> WaSalam
> Araz



thankyou sir for your informative post.

sir can you also kindly tell us that whether the MLU and the turkish upgrades are to be done on same aircraft, i mean whether all the planes will receive both kind of upgrades or are the turkish upgrades just a back up in case we fail to have the US MLU.

*wheater all planes get both these upgrades??*

i will be very thankful


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## mean_bird

Super Falcon said:


> is mlu is better or aesa



*MLU* (mid-life upgrade) is a program to introduce advance techonology into older F-16s. That is converting F-16 to blk 40 (MLU-3) or blk 50 (MLU-4).

*Falcon Star upgrade* is another upgrade but that has to do with structural upgrade i.e. replace parts that have lived their lives, and service others so that the life of the fighter is increased.


*AESA* ( Advanced Electronically Scanned Array) is a new radar technology that is better than existing radars (called pulse doppler radars).


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## mean_bird

arsalanaslam123 said:


> thankyou sir for your informative post.
> 
> sir can you also kindly tell us that whether the MLU and the turkish upgrades are to be done on same aircraft, i mean whether all the planes will receive both kind of upgrades or are the turkish upgrades just a back up in case we fail to have the US MLU.
> 
> *wheater all planes get both these upgrades??*
> 
> i will be very thankful



I think you are confusing two things...MLU and star falcon upgrade that I explained in my previous post (see above). The existing PAF F-16s will recieve both upgrades , structural (star falcon upgrade) and MLU (technology upgrade) to extend their lives and bring them up to blk 50 standard respectively. 

The first 4 are going through these in the US. The rest may be done in Turkey or at PAF from kits bought from US with assistance from Turkey.

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## Manticore

i heard paf f16s were getting mlu3? [blk40]


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## mean_bird

ANTIBODY said:


> i heard paf f16s were getting mlu3? [blk40]



Actually, a unique feature of PAF is that almost everything it gets is customized. Even when we got the blk 15 F-16s in the 80s, they were customized and were slightly different from the standard blk 15 that were sold to other countries. 

Even now, the MLU PAF F-16s are getting are customized rather than standard MLU-3 or MLU-4.

Let me try to explain

*MLU-3 in made up of the following.*

Automatic Target Hand-off System (ATHS)
Integration of anti radiation missile capability
Integration of target designator system
Further implementation of the Digital Terrain System
Integration of the Link-16 system
Integration of capability for GPS controlled weapons (GBU30/32)
Introduction of Helmet Mounted/Cueing Sight
Introduction of NVG compatible helmets

Where as the MLU 4 Tape has the following features which PAF is not aquiring because of financial crunch,

*M4 tape contains in addition to above:*

Introduction of advanced short-range missile, as a replacement for the current Sidewinder (AIM-9X, IRIS-T)
Integration of advanced Link-16 functions
Integration of SNIPER targeting pods 


*Here's what PAF is getting: *
The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B *Mid-Life Update (MLU)modification* and *Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement* kits consisting of:

APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or APG-66(V)2 radar;
Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems;
AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
Have Quick I/II Radios;
Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals;

SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
Reconnaissance pod capability;

Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units;
MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency
Memory (DRFM) or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
1 Unit Level Trainer; and
10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.


So you can see that everything there is just a customized upgrade rather then a MLU-3 or MLU-4. The only thing missing is integration of AIM-9X sidewinders(5th gen) because we are getting the AIM-9M sidewinders (the latest ones before the 5th gen). 

Hope that explains it...so it is blk 50 standard


Here's a link to exactly what PAF is getting
http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2006/Pakistan_06-10.pdf

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## IceCold

mean_bird said:


> Actually, a unique feature of PAF is that almost everything it gets is customized. Even when we got the blk 15 F-16s in the 80s, they were customized and were slightly different from the standard blk 15 that were sold to other countries.
> 
> Even now, the MLU PAF F-16s are getting are customized rather than standard MLU-3 or MLU-4.
> 
> Let me try to explain
> 
> *MLU-3 in made up of the following.*
> 
> Automatic Target Hand-off System (ATHS)
> Integration of anti radiation missile capability
> Integration of target designator system
> Further implementation of the Digital Terrain System
> Integration of the Link-16 system
> Integration of capability for GPS controlled weapons (GBU30/32)
> Introduction of Helmet Mounted/Cueing Sight
> Introduction of NVG compatible helmets
> 
> Where as the MLU 4 Tape has the following features which PAF is not aquiring because of financial crunch,
> 
> *M4 tape contains in addition to above:*
> 
> Introduction of advanced short-range missile, as a replacement for the current Sidewinder (AIM-9X, IRIS-T)
> Integration of advanced Link-16 functions
> Integration of SNIPER targeting pods
> 
> 
> *Here's what PAF is getting: *
> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B *Mid-Life Update (MLU)modification* and *Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement* kits consisting of:
> 
> APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or APG-66(V)2 radar;
> Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems;
> AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
> AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
> Have Quick I/II Radios;
> Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals;
> 
> SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
> Reconnaissance pod capability;
> 
> Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units;
> MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
> 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency
> Memory (DRFM) or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
> 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
> 1 Unit Level Trainer; and
> 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.
> 
> 
> So you can see that everything there is just a customized upgrade rather then a MLU-3 or MLU-4. The only thing missing is integration of AIM-9X sidewinders(5th gen) because we are getting the AIM-9M sidewinders (the latest ones before the 5th gen).
> 
> Hope that explains it...so it is blk 50 standard
> 
> 
> Here's a link to exactly what PAF is getting
> http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2006/Pakistan_06-10.pdf



So still no DRFM. How badly will that effect our offensive capabilities since you cannot counter enemy frequency there and then and have to go back to the base for an analysis and for all we know by the time we return enemy may be detecting us with different frequencies. 
Is this capability absent in the block-52 as well? If yes i think some one mentioned about a possible Chinese counter part to this, but considering how tough the americans have become in maintaining controls over their foreign sales equipment specially to countries like Pakistan, how likely it is for us to integrate the two without upsetting the yanks.


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## mean_bird

IceCold said:


> *So still no DRFM.* How badly will that effect our offensive capabilities since you cannot counter enemy frequency there and then and have to go back to the base for an analysis and for all we know by the time we return enemy may be detecting us with different frequencies.
> Is this capability absent in the block-52 as well? If yes i think some one mentioned about a possible Chinese counter part to this, but considering how tough the americans have become in maintaining controls over their foreign sales equipment specially to countries like Pakistan, how likely it is for us to integrate the two without upsetting the yanks.



What do you mean by 'still'? Its the one and same deal that happened around 2006 ( I think?). Nothing have changed in it and no new deal made. And it was a combined deal of the STAR upgrade, MLU, 18 New F-16s, and weapons and ammunition. So yes, neither will have DRFM. 

I don't think we can add something on the US fighters. An EW works with the radar and unless you have source code of the radars, there isn't much you can do. Even Israel were denied similar use of their equipments for the F-35 so possibilities are limited. 

The EW suite is made up of several components like 

- *Threat warning systems*, provides threat radar detection, identification, and warning, as well as control and coordination of the countermeasure responses available
- *Jammers*, which provide protection to the aircraft. Addition of DRFM enhances the capabilities of these jammers. The absence of DRFM doesnt mean the jammers are useless but less advanced. You can pre-define a range of frequency and effective radiation power.

- *Threat Adaptive Countermeasures Dispenser System (TACDS) *, provides an integrated,reprogrammable, dependable, computer-controlled capability for dispensing expendable decoys (chaff,
flares, and others). 

Now what exactly the FC-20 or the JF-17 will have, I have no idea of how advanced the Chinese are in this area or what PAF plans are in acquiring such technology from others. My guess is by the time the FC-20 comes, China will have advanced in their technologies. The JF-17 EW suite is not yet operational so its too early to say what it is. Wait till 2010-11 for a clearer picture of what exactly JF-17 is going to be. Besides, such features can always be updated at a later stage.


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## IceCold

mean_bird said:


> *What do you mean by 'still'*? Its the one and same deal that happened around 2006 ( I think?). Nothing have changed in it and no new deal made. And it was a combined deal of the STAR upgrade, MLU, 18 New F-16s, and weapons and ammunition. So yes, neither will have DRFM.
> 
> I don't think we can add something on the US fighters. An EW works with the radar and unless you have source code of the radars, there isn't much you can do. Even Israel were denied similar use of their equipments for the F-35 so possibilities are limited.
> 
> The EW suite is made up of several components like
> 
> - *Threat warning systems*, provides threat radar detection, identification, and warning, as well as control and coordination of the countermeasure responses available
> - *Jammers*, which provide protection to the aircraft. Addition of DRFM enhances the capabilities of these jammers. The absence of DRFM doesnt mean the jammers are useless but less advanced. You can pre-define a range of frequency and effective radiation power.
> 
> - *Threat Adaptive Countermeasures Dispenser System (TACDS) *, provides an integrated,reprogrammable, dependable, computer-controlled capability for dispensing expendable decoys (chaff,
> flares, and others).
> 
> Now what exactly the FC-20 or the JF-17 will have, I have no idea of how advanced the Chinese are in this area or what PAF plans are in acquiring such technology from others. My guess is by the time the FC-20 comes, China will have advanced in their technologies. The JF-17 EW suite is not yet operational so its too early to say what it is. Wait till 2010-11 for a clearer picture of what exactly JF-17 is going to be. Besides, such features can always be updated at a later stage.



Well i used the word still because some one on another forum(Defence Talk) i think it was Sabre though not sure said that alot of the stuff comes through back channel in order to avoid congress back lash. In that context i used the word still. Anyways won't that seriously handicap our F-16s in offensive role. 
I agree with the rest of your post.


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## saiko

DRFM is a superb jamming technique as it does not rely on brute power to get the job done, but if I had to choose between DRFM or traditional noise jamming I'd choose the latter. DRFM can not mask your intentions, it can only make it harder to kill you. A powerful standoff jammer like the twice-cancelled B-52 SOJ project are important for strike missions. Even though the US thinks the B2 and F-22 make something like the B-52 SOJ obsolete, that's only true right now. In 10 years, they're going to wish they didn't cancel the project because only the B-2 will have a reasonable stealth shelf life moving forward.


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## Munir

saiko said:


> DRFM is a superb jamming technique as it does not rely on brute power to get the job done, but if I had to choose between DRFM or traditional noise jamming I'd choose the latter. DRFM can not mask your intentions, it can only make it harder to kill you. A powerful standoff jammer like the twice-cancelled B-52 SOJ project are important for strike missions.



Totally wrong. Home on jamming is getting you killed and with DRFM you can mask cause the opponent cannot use its sensors... Where did you get the info to make the opposite conclusions?


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## saiko

Munir said:


> Totally wrong. Home on jamming is getting you killed and with DRFM you can mask cause the opponent cannot use its sensors... Where did you get the info to make the opposite conclusions?



lol. you have that totally backwards. DRFM does not "blind" enemy radar - that's the point of noise jamming. You can not effectively use current DRFM technology in the escort or stand off jamming roles.

And if you think you're going to fire a missile at a stand off jammer then you probably don't understand what stand off jamming is.


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## Muradk

PAF has been using Sniper Pods for quite a while, I have used it so many times while flying over Bakhar and over Somi range Karachi. Most of the public didn't know that we had them and then it came in one of our PAF Songs, Still people didn't noticed it well a few did but most no tech people didn't know or to be frank who cared, People were more interested watching the fighter plus it was never displayed in front of the public.

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## Neo

Thats right, a lot of stuff we use never made it to the media. Sniper pods and AMRAAM are the best examples. Who knows what else is there. 
I think secrecy is a strong weapon and we should continue to hide some of our best toys.


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## Luftwaffe

RS4...you develop it use it test it evaluate it spend time with it and then you learn and have experience at one stage F-16 was a new thing to Pakistan instead Pakistan could have bought better equipped Mirages in top notch quality from France rather than buying F-16s cuz they were new and unproven...


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## Hasnain2009




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## Hasnain2009

AIM-120D


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## Arsalan

have we got the AIM 120, which version??

and when will our F16 be able to fire them??


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## blain2

arsalanaslam123 said:


> have we got the AIM 120, which version??
> 
> and when will our F16 be able to fire them??



AIM-120C5s. All PAF F-16s would be able to fire them.

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## TOPGUN

Muradk said:


> PAF has been using Sniper Pods for quite a while, I have used it so many times while flying over Bakhar and over Somi range Karachi. Most of the public didn't know that we had them and then it came in one of our PAF Songs, Still people didn't noticed it well a few did but most no tech people didn't know or to be frank who cared, People were more interested watching the fighter plus it was never displayed in front of the public.



Sir wat are all the aircrafts you have flown and which one was your fav??


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## Muradk

TOPGUN said:


> Sir wat are all the aircrafts you have flown and which one was your fav??



Lets start with the one which really sucked it was T6 man that plane would make you cry e.g Just to do a loop it took seven steps to do 1 loop. I loved Sabers first time I broke the sound barrier in it 2 IAF 
Mig21 vs me had no Ammo I was on a mission to check the radar at Kurmu Decca and the Migs got to me had one option take one down by using my self as a missile went into a dive at 32,000ft went between the Migs and broke Mach1. 
Rest I can say I have flown 21different fighters .
saber on Top than Mirage and at last F-16. 
In between all fighters had something unique which made it fun to fly an get that experience.
Enemy 
Hunter was a bad *** fighter when it came to peshawar for training the first 2 weeks we were toast they beat the pulp out of us than after 2 weeks we got to know its capabilities and we in the F-86 beat the crap out if them. Then we didn't lose 1 dog fight.

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## Arsalan

blain2 said:


> AIM-120C5s. All PAF F-16s would be able to fire them.




after the MLU?


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## Hasnain2009

AIM-120C5




AIM-120


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## IceCold

By the picture i assume an AIMRAAM can be fitted to the tip of wing as well, does that mean we can fit the same to the JF-17 wingtips and which in turn means that we will have 4 BVR missiles instead of 2 and can engage 2 targets beyond visual range that is if we fire 2 missiles at one target to increase the hit probability otherwise 4 different targets at BVR range?


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## TOPGUN

Muradk said:


> Lets start with the one which really sucked it was T6 man that plane would make you cry e.g Just to do a loop it took seven steps to do 1 loop. I loved Sabers first time I broke the sound barrier in it 2 IAF
> Mig21 vs me had no Ammo I was on a mission to check the radar at Kurmu Decca and the Migs got to me had one option take one down by using my self as a missile went into a dive at 32,000ft went between the Migs and broke Mach1.
> Rest I can say I have flown 21different fighters .
> saber on Top than Mirage and at last F-16.
> In between all fighters had something unique which made it fun to fly an get that experience.
> Enemy
> Hunter was a bad *** fighter when it came to peshawar for training the first 2 weeks we were toast they beat the pulp out of us than after 2 weeks we got to know its capabilities and we in the F-86 beat the crap out if them. Then we didn't lose 1 dog fight.



Thankyou Sir for the reply! i look up to you thx for the story!


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## Ibraz Butt

pakistan must appeal for Mig33!


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## Keysersoze

Ibraz Butt said:


> pakistan must appeal for Mig33!



What mig 33? there is no such plane.....


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## Lockheed F-16

Keysersoze said:


> What mig 33? there is no such plane.....



And we shouldn't appeal for anything, no need for whining bitching and begging for planes. Also not for MiG 35


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## Arsalan

he he whats the Migs doing in the F16 disscussion thread!

anyways i think that IF IF we can get the MLUz and the block 52 i dont think we will need anything else as they will be supported by thr JF17 and the FC20,,,but but there is a big big IF!!


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## Lockheed F-16

arsalanaslam123 said:


> he he whats the Migs doing in the F16 disscussion thread!
> 
> anyways i think that IF IF we can get the MLUz and the block 52 i dont think we will need anything else as they will be supported by thr JF17 and the FC20,,,but but there is a big big IF!!



Those IFs are the reason why we won't be able to rely ever on US. Therefore I'm happy we r getting FC20


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## Imran Khan

Ibraz Butt said:


> Pakistan must appeal for MIG!



appeal in which Cort man?there is no jet MIG-33. are we going for purchase or begging the jets?


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## IceCold

Keysersoze said:


> What mig 33? there is no such plane.....



There is a fighter jet by the name of MIG-33 super fulcrum in Tom Clancy's H.A.W.K. Maybe he's impressed by that and referring to it.


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## Lockheed F-16

IceCold said:


> There is a fighter jet by the name of MIG-33 super fulcrum in Tom Clancy's H.A.W.K. Maybe he's impressed by that and referring to it.



Then he should join Gamerboard but this is serious F 16 discussion, and a Pakistani suggesting we should beg for planes is a disgrace for PAK.

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## Imran Khan

Muradk said:


> PAF has been using Sniper Pods for quite a while, I have used it so many times while flying over Bakhar and over Somi range Karachi. Most of the public didn't know that we had them and then it came in one of our PAF Songs, Still people didn't noticed it well a few did but most no tech people didn't know or to be frank who cared, People were more interested watching the fighter plus it was never displayed in front of the public.



sir only 3 secends we can see this from 3.15 to 3:18 this pod in paf song.

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## Munir

That is not a sniper pod... Atlis...

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## Imran Khan

sir its looking same but tip is round same as sniper pod .can you kindly clear whats type of this one?


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## shehbazi2001

Muradk said:


> PAF has been using Sniper Pods for quite a while, I have used it so many times while flying over Bakhar and over Somi range Karachi. Most of the public didn't know that we had them and then it came in one of our PAF Songs, Still people didn't noticed it well a few did but most no tech people didn't know or to be frank who cared, People were more interested watching the fighter plus it was never displayed in front of the public.




I guess by Sniper pod you mean a targeting pod. Sniper pod was selected by USAF in 2005 so it is not possible that PAF shall use it 20 years ago. Yes other targeting pods were used by air forces world wide and PAF used Atlis pod with F-16s. PAF may have used any other targeting pod too but not Sniper.

Sniper pod is a latest type of targeting pod and previously TIALD, ATLIS, LITENING and now DAMOCLES etc were/are used for delivery of PGMs (Precision-Guided Munitions) like Laser Guided Bombs.

http://www.vectorsite.net/twbomb_12.html

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## Muradk

shehbazi2001 said:


> I guess by Sniper pod you mean a targeting pod. Sniper pod was selected by USAF in 2005 so it is not possible that PAF shall use it 20 years ago. Yes other targeting pods were used by air forces world wide and PAF used Atlis pod with F-16s. PAF may have used any other targeting pod too but not Sniper.
> 
> Sniper pod is a latest type of targeting pod and previously TIALD, ATLIS, LITENING and now DAMOCLES etc were/are used for delivery of PGMs (Precision-Guided Munitions) like Laser Guided Bombs.
> 
> [12.0] Targeting Pods



Thats Atlis I am talking about Z-12 sniper pod we got 3 from south africa the same chap made it who invented the so called super gun later he was killed God knows who killed him. PAF still uses it that tech was transfered by the doc to USA and now they have come up with so called sniper P. by the way the guy was an american who left Yamas and joined South A DOD.


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## Hasnain2009

F-16 Atlis

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## Arsalan

with our MLUz we are going to get the sniper pod which are much more advanced then the atlis

the ATLIS-II
The Thomson-CSF ATLIS II (Automatic Tracking and Laser Integration System) is a French laser/electro-optical targeting pod for fighter bomber and attack aircraft.

ATLIS was developed starting in 1976, entering service in 1980. It was developed for the French Arm&#233;e de l'Air, initially carried by SEPECAT Jaguar and Mirage 2000 aircraft.

ATLIS incorporates a laser designator boresighted with a television camera. The pilot or weapon systems officer uses the crosshairs to mark a target, which can then be attacked with laser-guided bombs or other guided weapons from the designating aircraft or other, friendly forces. Because it is designed for use by single-seat aircraft, it has a novel automatic lock-on feature, which keeps the laser focused on the target without further operator intervention (using an inertial guidance system, it can generally keep the laser on target even if the beam is temporarily interrupted by clouds).

ATLIS II is used by the SEPECAT Jaguar, Mirage F1, Mirage 2000, Mirage 2000N, and *some Pakistani F-16s*. It is compatible with various U.S. and French laser-guided bombs, with the French Aerospatiale AS-30L missile, and even with some Russian bombs and guided weapons.

The pod is limited in being primarily a daylight/clear-weather system, and is being slowly replaced by the more capable Thomson-CSF PDLCT ("Pod de Designation Laser a Camera Thermique" / Laser Designation Pod with Infrared Camera") and Thales Damocles, which has a FLIR.


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## Arsalan

*SNIPER Targetting Pod*

The Lockheed Martin Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod (ATP) provides positive target identification, autonomous tracking, coordinate generation, and precise weapons guidance from extended standoff ranges. The Sniper ATP is intended for use on the F-15E Strike Eagle, F-16 Fighting Falcon, A-10 Thunderbolt II aircraft, B-1 (Rod Pod), and UK Harrier GR9.[1] aircraft. It has also received operational flight clearance to the full flight envelope of the Canadian CF-18 Hornet. [2] The Sniper ATP is in service with Norway, Oman, Poland, Singapore, Canada, Belgium, Saudi-Arabia[3] and the UK MoD.[4][5] In July 2007, Sniper ATP was acquired by Pakistan, making it the tenth country in the world to be in possession of the Sniper pod.[6] The Sniper ATP contains a laser designator and tracker for guiding laser-guided bombs. The pod also features a third-generation FLIR receiver and a CCD television camera. FLIR allows observation and tracking in low light / no light situations, while the CCD camera allows the same functions during day time operations.

A team of Lockheed Martin UK, BAE Systems and SELEX Galileo (formerly Selex S&AS) has successfully demonstrated and flown a Sniper ATP on board a Tornado GR4 combat aircraft. [7]

The U.S. Air Force initial seven-year contract for Sniper ATP has potential value in excess of $843 million. The Sniper ATP has delivered over 125 pods and the U.S. Air Force plans to procure at least 522 Sniper ATPs.

*FEATURES*
The Sniper ATP is a single, lightweight pod with much lower aerodynamic drag than the legacy systems it replaces. The Sniper possesses advanced targeting technology and its image processing allows aircrews to detect and identify tactical-size targets outside threat rings for the destruction of enemy air defense mission, as well as outside jet noise ranges for urban counter-insurgency operations. It offers a 3-5 times increase in detection range over the legacy LANTIRN system. It is currently flying on the U.S. Air Force and multinational F-16, F-15, B-1, F-18, Harrier, A-10, B-52 and Tornado aircraft.

The Sniper ATP incorporates a multi-spectral sensor capability with a high-resolution, mid-wave third-generation FLIR and a CCD-TV. Advanced sensors, combined with advanced image processing algorithms and rock-steady stabilization produce target identification ranges that permit operations minimizing exposure to many threat systems. The dual-mode laser offers an eye safe mode for urban combat and training operations, along with a laser-guided bomb designation laser for guiding in these precision munitions.

For target coordination with ground and air forces, a laser spot tracker, a laser marker, and a TV quality video down link to joint terminal air controllers improve rapid target detection / identification. Sniper ATP provides high-resolution imagery highly sought after for the non-traditional intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance mission. Sniper ATP is the only targeting pod being used in Operation Iraqi Freedom on F-15Es and F-16s, and in Operation Enduring Freedom on F-16s.

For ease of maintenance, Sniper ATP's revolutionary optical bed design, optimal partitioning, and diagnostic capabilities permit true two-level maintenance, eliminating costly intermediate-level support. Automated built-in test permits a flightline maintainer to isolate and replace an LRU in under 20 minutes to get the pod back up to full mission capable status. Spares are ordered through a user-friendly website offering in-transit visibility to parts shipment.

*GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS*
Primary Function: Positive identification, automatic tracking and laser designation 
Prime Contractor: Lockheed Martin 
Length: 94 inches (239 centimeters) 
Diameter: 11.9 inches (30 centimeters) 
Weight: 440 pounds (199 kilograms) 
Aircraft: F-15E, F-16 Block 30/40/50, A-10, B-1, CF-18, ,B-52, Harrier, Tornado 
Sensors: Mid-wave third generation FLIR, dual mode eye-safe, laser designator, CCD-TV, laser spot tracker and laser marker 
Date Deployed: January 2005


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## Arsalan

is it true that we will be getting this system,

actually it is a new technology and it do not seems likely that US will give it to Pakistan!

can anyone please inform us!


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## mean_bird

arsalanaslam123 said:


> is it true that we will be getting this system,
> 
> actually it is a new technology and it do not seems likely that US will give it to Pakistan!
> 
> can anyone please inform us!



*PAF Selects Lockheed Martin Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods for F-16
*

The U.S. government has awarded a contract to Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] for *18 Sniper&#174; Advanced Targeting Pods (ATP), a part of the new Advanced Block 52 F-16 aircraft program for Pakistan*. *Pakistan is the eighth international customer to join the U.S. Air Force and Air National Guard flying with Sniper ATP. *The contract includes spares and training services. Terms of the contract were not disclosed. &#8220;This sale culminates a two year combined effort by Lockheed Martin&#8217;s Missiles and Fire Control and Aeronautics businesses to upgrade the precision attack capability of one of our key allies,&#8221; said Ken Fuhr, director of Fixed Wing Targeting Programs at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. 

&#8220;Sniper continues to demonstrate exceptional performance in meeting the requirements and expectations of the Warfighter.&#8221; *With deliveries [having begun] in 2008, the Pakistan Air Force will benefit from Sniper ATP&#8217;s exceptional stability and superior imagery, allowing aircrews to perform intelligence, targeting, surveillance and reconnaissance missions from extended standoff ranges. *The Pakistan Air Force joins the U.K. Ministry of Defence; the Canadian Forces, the Royal Norwegian Air Force; the Polish Air and Air Defense Force; the Royal Air Force of Oman; the Belgium Defence; and other international customers with its selection of the Sniper ATP. Sniper ATP is currently flying on the U.S. Air Force and multinational F-15s, F-16s, F-18s, A-10s, B-1s and the Harrier GR9. 

Sniper ATPs have accumulated tens of thousands of flight hours in thousands of sorties in support of Operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom.Sniper incorporates a high-resolution, mid-wave third-generation forward-looking infrared (FLIR), a dual-mode laser permitting eye-safe operation in urban environments, a CCD-TV along with a laser spot tracker and a laser marker. Sniper is fully compatible with the latest J-series munitions and precision-guided weaponry. Its superior detection ranges are vital to pilots, helping keep them out of range of threat air defenses. Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin employs about 140,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products and services.



******************

Pakistan has ordered 18 of them, but from the MLU we are getting, our existing F-16, after the MLU, will also have the capability to carry the Sniper pod. But whether of not pakistan will order more will depend. They are quite expensive if I am not wrong.


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## IceCold

mean_bird said:


> Pakistan has ordered 18 of them, but from the MLU we are getting, our existing F-16, after the MLU, will also have the capability to carry the Sniper pod. But whether of not pakistan will order more will depend. They are quite expensive if I am not wrong.



mean_bird though off topic can this pod be attached to the JF-17 as well without significant changes( and i am talking about the first 50 because they all will have Chinese avionics)........ just curious because JF-17 is likely to become the bulk of our air force, it would be used extensively in counter insurgency missions.
On a side note does the the Chinese have an equivalent to this? I think Blue Sky is more or less belongs to this category.


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## Arsalan

> *Originally Posted by mean_bird *
> Pakistan has ordered 18 of them, but from the MLU we are getting, our existing F-16, *after the MLU, will also have the capability to carry the Sniper pod.* But whether of not pakistan will order more will depend. They are quite expensive if I am not wrong.



now this is the best part for me!

i dont think the US will give us the block 52! but the MLU, tis may be possible! so we may get a chance to use this high tech weapon!


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## mean_bird

IceCold said:


> mean_bird though off topic can this pod be attached to the JF-17 as well without significant changes( and i am talking about the first 50 because they all will have Chinese avionics)........ just curious because JF-17 is likely to become the bulk of our air force, it would be used extensively in counter insurgency missions.
> On a side note does the the Chinese have an equivalent to this? I think Blue Sky is more or less belongs to this category.



I wish I could answer you, but the only guy who can tell you is one with the technical knowledge of how both of these work, whether or not US will allow it, and if both the above are good then if we can buy enough of them, considering we only bought 18.

In simpler words, I am afraid I have no definite answer and I believe any answer here would also rely on a lot of guess work. My guess would be it won't/can't be used on JF-17, especially the first 50 with Chinese equipment.


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## mean_bird

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i dont think the US will give us the block 52! but the MLU, tis may be possible! so we may get a chance to use this high tech weapon!



They are just two ends of the same coin. 

From the way I see things, either we will become a stronger ally and get both MLU and blk 52 or relations between US and Pakistan would almost dwindle to the lowest ebb and we won't get either. I am talking about the short run, or the time by which both of these are to happen i.e 2010-11.

The reason for some people's frustration is that some noobs posted that the first blk 52 were to arrive by jan 2009, which was absolutely false information, and now people are starting to think that the deal has gone sour or that US is 'delaying' the sale. The truth is that no blk 52 was to arrive this year but only in 2010 (around mid ) so this logic of 'delaying' is invalid.

Having said that, its true that Pak-US relation aren't the best these days, and that's why I say either both new and MLU will come if the relation warms (and maybe some other things too) , or neither will come and our relations will go down further.

So everyone is free to think of how the relations will go, but complaining the blk 52 have not arrived yet and are getting delayed has no foundation (IMO)


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## JK!

Muradk said:


> Thats Atlis I am talking about Z-12 sniper pod we got 3 from south africa the same chap made it who invented the so called super gun later he was killed God knows who killed him. PAF still uses it that tech was transfered by the doc to USA and now they have come up with so called sniper P. by the way the guy was an american who left Yamas and joined South A DOD.



I think his name was Gerard Bull.


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## maverick2009

That picture of 16 look stunning. Such a beautiful looking fighter and that bubble canopy with 360 degree veiw is till to be bettered 30 years later


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## Muradk

Just for information the JF-17s don't have chinese Avionics.


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## IceCold

Muradk said:


> Just for information the JF-17s don't have chinese Avionics.



Now that's surprising. Not even the first 50 sir that were to supposedly have all Chinese avionics.


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## Arsalan

> *Posted By MEAN_BIRD*
> The reason for some people's frustration is that some noobs posted that the first blk 52 were to arrive by jan 2009, which was absolutely false information, and now people are starting to think that the deal has gone sour or that US is 'delaying' the sale. The truth is that no blk 52 was to arrive this year but only in 2010 (around mid ) so this logic of 'delaying' is invalid.



can you give some link of this info please!

its all over the web that the block 52 were to be deleivered by mid 2007-2008. i my seil heared the news about the US congress DELAYING the F16 till 2010 as they think they are not meant to be used against taliban but against the Indians! these were the words of the news! no misconception in this report sir!

i wish what you said is true but i dont think so!


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## Arsalan

blain2 said:


> AIM-120C5s. All PAF F-16s would be able to fire them.



about the AMRAAM from US here is the report from the news wehn the deal was finalized



> by Staff Writers
> Tucson AZ (SPX) Jan 16, 2007
> The country of Pakistan has signed a Letter of Offer and Acceptance for the procurement of 500 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) - generating the largest single international AMRAAM purchase -- and 200 AIM-9M Sidewinder missiles. This is also the first AMRAAM missile procurement between Raytheon Company and Pakistan. Delivery of the AMRAAM missiles will start in 2008 and continue through 2011.
> The combined $284 million procurement augments Pakistan's established inventory and will provide the bulk of the air-to-air fire power of the Pakistan Air Force. AMRAAM is a joint U.S. Air Force and Navy program and sets the global beyond-visual-range standard.
> 
> It incorporates the latest digital technology and microminiaturized solid-state electronics, making this remarkable weapon more reliable and maintainable, resulting in the highest dependability at the lowest cost of ownership.
> 
> Thirty-two countries have procured AMRAAM based on its unprecedented air combat flexibility. The AIM-9M Sidewinder missile is a combat-proven, all- aspect, infrared-guided, short-range air-to-air missile employed by more than 20 countries worldwide.
> 
> "This is the largest single purchase of AMRAAM missiles in the history of the AMRAAM international program," said Brock McCaman, vice president of Raytheon Missile Systems' Air-to-Air product line. "The combat-proven 'one-two punch' of Raytheon's AMRAAM/Sidewinder technology will give the Pakistan Air Force the necessary firepower to accomplish vital air defense missions."



and now we have got them, that is what i guess from sir blain post, can any senior please confirm the news!

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## Muradk

arsalanaslam123 said:


> about the AMRAAM from US here is the report from the news wehn the deal was finalized
> 
> 
> 
> and now we have got them, that is what i guess from sir blain post, can any senior please confirm the news!



I think PAF would know, Weather we have them or not does it matter.


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## mean_bird

arsalanaslam123 said:


> can you give some link of this info please!
> 
> its all over the web that the block 52 were to be deleivered by mid 2007-2008. i my seil heared the news about the US congress DELAYING the F16 till 2010 as they think they are not meant to be used against taliban but against the Indians! these were the words of the news! no misconception in this report sir!
> 
> i wish what you said is true but i dont think so!



The program for the new blk 52 is as follows:

"Pakistan presently operates forty-six F-16A/B aircraft. Thirty-two of these aircraft remain from the original forty aircraft that Pakistan bought in the 1980s. Since 2005, the USAF has transferred fourteen Excess Defense Article (EDA) F-16A/B aircraft to Pakistan. The current Pakistan F-16 program is composed of three Letters of Offer and Acceptance (LOAs). The first LOA providing for the production of eighteen F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft is underway: *four aircraft will be ready in June 2010; four aircraft in August 2010; five aircraft in october 2010; four aircraft in Dec 2010; and, one aircraft in December 2011.* *It is important to note that none of the aircraft will be delivered to Pakistan until the Administration ensures that Pakistan is in compliance with the LOA security notes, and the Administration has so advised Congress.*"


_Source: Written Statement of Vice Admiral Jeffrey Wieringa, USN Director, Defense Security Cooperation Agency Before the House Committee on Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia *16 September 2008*_



arsalanaslam123 said:


> about the AMRAAM from US here is the report from the news wehn the deal was finalized
> 
> and now we have got them, that is what i guess from sir blain post, can any senior please confirm the news!



The deal for the arms is as follows:

"The second LOA provides for munitions and includes: *five hundred AIM-120C-5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM); seven hundred and fifty Mark-84 2000 lb General Purpose bombs; seven hundred BLU-109 2000 lb Penetrator bombs; five hundred Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) tail kits; sixteen hundred Enhanced Guided Bomb Unit 3 (EGBU) kits; and assorted bomb fuzes and support equipment*. *These weapons will be available for delivery to Pakistan beginning in June 2010*. However, I would like to emphasize that none of these weapons will be delivered until Pakistan complies with the LOA security notes and the Administration reports compliance to Congress."

Source: same report as above.

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## Arsalan

Muradk said:


> I think PAF would know, Weather we have them or not does it matter.



:when we fight/fly, whether we win or lose!!", if this matters than off-course having or not having the AMRAAM matters sir!


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## Muradk

arsalanaslam123 said:


> :when we fight/fly, whether we win or lose!!", if this matters than off-course having or not having the AMRAAM matters sir!



Funny you are telling me about flying and fight. And I do agree what you are saying. Trust me PAF is in a good position.

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## Arsalan

Muradk said:


> Funny you are telling me about flying and fight. And I do agree what you are saying. Trust me PAF is in a good position.



i do not dare to do so


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## Muradk

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i do not dare to do so



Yar you have all the right please don't say like that you are a good friend . What happens sometimes Particular Armed forces like India, Pakistan don't openly tell people that we have a particular weapon, Tho there intel agencies have contacts but some times they fail but flip side to this is they pick up news from forums, There are 2 main forums which ISI and RAW read every day that is PAKDEF and DEFENCE.PK MOST DONT LIKE pakdef because they make everything look like the Manhattan Project so they jump on our forum for info. It is not that I am an retired officer I just feel that some things should stay within that boundry, yes PAK would say that we are buying this from USA but will not tell if they have got it or not. Why do you think India is still sitting on there money and not buying weapons right now they will counter our and chinese move. Every day they say we are buying this we are buying that but still they haven't made there mind because they want to see our selection first.

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## Arsalan

Muradk said:


> Yar you have all the right please don't say like that you are a good friend . What happens sometimes Particular Armed forces like India, Pakistan don't openly tell people that we have a particular weapon, Tho there intel agencies have contacts but some times they fail but flip side to this is they pick up news from forums, There are 2 main forums which ISI and RAW read every day that is PAKDEF and DEFENCE.PK MOST DONT LIKE pakdef because they make everything look like the Manhattan Project so they jump on our forum for info. It is not that I am an retired officer I just feel that some things should stay within that boundry, yes PAK would say that we are buying this from USA but will not tell if they have got it or not. Why do you think India is still sitting on there money and not buying weapons right now they will counter our and chinese move. Every day they say we are buying this we are buying that but still they haven't made there mind because they want to see our selection first.




no sir, i can understand this!

actually i have always felt that there is a lot of info at this forum which can be helpfull for enemies, but sie dont you think that countries with inteligence agencies as developed as RAW, MAUSAD, CIA oe FBI do not need websites to gather intel!! they have there sources everywhere,

anyways i understand what you wanted to say! lets keep it secret!

regards


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## Munir

Muradk said:


> Why do you think India is still sitting on there money and not buying weapons right now they will counter our and chinese move. Every day they say we are buying this we are buying that but still they haven't made there mind because they want to see our selection first.



I think PAF already is one step behind but thanks to that delay PAF shifted pretty fast beyond latest Indian game. PAF is still flying F7p, Mirage 3/5 and F16block15. India loves to, and we surely canot blaim them, with their MKI. Other then that they have the same old mig21, old Jaguar, oldest Mig29 and even older Mirage2000h. Within one year it will be totally different. While India moves to more MKI (and a bigger maintenance hell) and first AWACS, PAF will be shifting to JF17 (+/-september 2009 fully operational) and Erieye (august 2009). Besides that june 2010 will be the first 4 block52. We will have navalized Babur and better Ra'ad. And lots of BVR's and other smart weapons. I don't think the next move is important... Whatever India decides... There will me more producers willing to deliver to pak. They need export. And PAF will more and more pro China... J10B is a pretty hard fact and surel there is something after that... The remark that PAF will not ho for dual engined fighterjet is a bit simplistic. A5 and J6 were duals... F5 also... There will be a dual J10... Pretty nasty for anything in IAF...


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## TOPGUN

Paf will be a nightmare for our enemies by 2010/2011 inshallah not that it isnt a nightmare right now even with wat we got can't wait for this change to place !!

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## Muradk

They should leave J-10 and go for J-11 that would really boost our power in Air. And if the American put J-11 on 4th best fighter in the world and are **** scared of it there must be a reason.

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## MastanKhan

arsalanaslam123 said:


> no sir, i can understand this!
> 
> actually i have always felt that there is a lot of info at this forum which can be helpfull for enemies, but sie dont you think that countries with inteligence agencies as developed as RAW, MAUSAD, CIA oe FBI do not need websites to gather intel!! they have there sources everywhere,
> 
> anyways i understand what you wanted to say! lets keep it secret!
> 
> regards




Hi,

These web-sites are the best source of information for any agency---loose lips sink ships---people like to talk and nothing like talking behind the screen of invisibility---these web-sites have tons of information floating around---only if you know what you are looking for.

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## MastanKhan

Muradk said:


> They should leave J-10 and go for J-11 that would really boost our power in Air. And if the American put J-11 on 4th best fighter in the world and are **** scared of it there must be a reason.




Hi,


Muradk is so correct in his analysis---why go for J 10---why not J11---that would completely change the playing field and the role of PAF---suddenly the advantage that Iaf has will disappear---now that we have come up with the solution---what would it take for the paf to get the J11's.

My thinking would be to complement the current fleet with

150 JF 17's for now

50 Fc 20's for now

50 J11's for now

I believe the thoughts are about PAF to have at least one platform fully capable to go mano a mano with SU30 without any prejudice---without any reservations plus any other aircraft that india could procure.

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## Muradk

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> Muradk is so correct in his analysis---why go for J 10---why not J11---that would completely change the playing field and the role of PAF---suddenly the advantage that Iaf has will disappear---now that we have come up with the solution---what would it take for the paf to get the J11's.
> 
> My thinking would be to complement the current fleet with
> 
> 150 JF 17's for now
> 
> 50 Fc 20's for now
> 
> 50 J11's for now
> 
> I believe the thoughts are about PAF to have at least one platform fully capable to go mano a mano with SU30 without any prejudice---without any reservations plus any other aircraft that india could procure.



Excellent point no doubt.


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## Arsalan

Muradk said:


> They should leave J-10 and go for J-11 that would really boost our power in Air. And if the American put J-11 on 4th best fighter in the world and are **** scared of it there must be a reason.




perhaps the maintainance factor is a big issue!
getting them in small number and then spending a lot of money on there maintainance wmay well tur out to be a nightmare!

other than this i think there might be Russian influence in this deal, after it is a licienced copy of the russian plane! i dont see russians denaying such equipment to us especially with chines interference but still it may be a case, , ,

the J 11 is said to be superior thwn the russain Su27 that india is alos operating but it may not e as good as the Su30

another thing that confuses me is that if the J11 was good enough then why china spend lots of budget of developing J10 and still upgrading it and spending heavily on J10 B ? ? ?
they could have spend half the amount to make the J11 a far more superior platform, comparable to the Su30!! ??

what do you people think of it?

regards


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## mean_bird

Muradk said:


> They should leave J-10 and go for J-11 that would really boost our power in Air. And if the American put J-11 on 4th best fighter in the world and are **** scared of it there must be a reason.



Murad Sahib,

what makes you think the Russian will allow this? RD-93 was one thing but J-11, which is a copy of the Su-27, will amount to total disrespect of copyrights. 

I believe the PAF must have tried this, when reports started to surface that Russia will sue China if it exports the J-11. I am not even sure if J-11B carries all chinese equipments or still some Russian parts.

If those things could ever be resolved, I think J-11 will be the "extra-punch" we are looking for in terms of "hi-tech". J-10 would replicate the F-16 and was originally as a back-up plan should things go wrong in the F-16 deal. 

However since then, and the decision to have the FC-20 being delayed, the J-10 is to be more superior to the F-16 and somewhere close to the blk 60/Rafale/EF, particularly since the prospects of a J-11 looks bleak due to Russia.

Just my opinion

P.S. could you free your PM inbox as it is full and I cannot send you a PM.


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## mean_bird

arsalanaslam123 said:


> another thing that confuses me is that if the J11 was good enough then why china spend lots of budget of developing J10 and still upgrading it and spending heavily on J10 B ? ? ?
> they could have spend half the amount to make the J11 a far more superior platform, comparable to the Su30!! ??
> 
> what do you people think of it?
> 
> regards



J-10 and J-11 are akin to F-16 and F-15 in USAF. You need both as a lo-hi mix so they complement each other rather than compete against each other.


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## Munir

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> Muradk is so correct in his analysis---why go for J 10---why not J11---that would completely change the playing field and the role of PAF---suddenly the advantage that Iaf has will disappear---now that we have come up with the solution---what would it take for the paf to get the J11's.
> 
> My thinking would be to complement the current fleet with
> 
> 150 JF 17's for now
> 
> 50 Fc 20's for now
> 
> 50 J11's for now
> 
> I believe the thoughts are about PAF to have at least one platform fully capable to go mano a mano with SU30 without any prejudice---without any reservations plus any other aircraft that india could procure.



I think I agree with it 100%. 

Frontline
250-300 JF17 block2
50-100 FC20/J10B

Spare
16 block52
40+ MLU block52
100 Mirage 3/5

Total 450-550

Radar coverage
5 Chinese AWACS + 5 Erieye + 3 Orion 2000

Transport
10 Il78 + 10 il76
10-20 C130
4-10 CN235-220

Training
100 Mushaq
50 K8


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## TOPGUN

Muradk said:


> They should leave J-10 and go for J-11 that would really boost our power in Air. And if the American put J-11 on 4th best fighter in the world and are **** scared of it there must be a reason.



I agree with you sir totally on the j-11's i have said this here before many times but i dont know why we wont try to get them perhaps cuz of the russians  it would be a great boost to PAF sir do we know if our pilots have flown it before ??


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## Zob

well now that we are BACK TO DISCUSSING J-11s...i guess price is also an issue let alone the fact that the chinese can't sell it due to the russian/indian problem....if we are getting our JF-17s on a soft loan then i guess J11s must be so highly priced that we can only dream about them....


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

I believe that a lot depends upon how the sale of the JF 17 to other nations would go forward. Once the orders start coming in---then I believe that the russian stance towards pakistan may soften up.

Second issue is the indian decision about mrca---which country they are going to sign up with---thirdly---it then all boils down to, is the chinese engine---which is the most important part of the purchase. 

Even though paf have operated twin engine aircraft---like the A5's---but then there is nothing like the twin engine twin tails strike aircraft sitting on the tarmac or flying in the air---a massive morale booster for the pilot as well as the public. 

PAF's decision to dump the F 16 blk 52 ( keeping a minimum ) and go forward with the FC20 must have been an un-nerving decision decision for many---but at least the paf has chosen a firm path that it is headed towards---now it shows a focus and a sense of direction that is being taken for the future of PAF. 

That is what the public wants. Give us hope---show us some thing to hold onto---do something that we can hold our head high---the air force pilots and the pakistani public has been far too long living under the umbrella of depressing news.

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## araz

I think the Indians are in a bit of a pickle. They want the American tech, but dont trust or rely on them. They want to keep the Russians as their main suppliers but dont have the nerve to say, we wont buy your planes either. No wonder MRCA is taking its time materializing!!! 
MuradK saheb has again set a cat amongst the pigeons by forwarding the idea of J11. It is an interesting proposition. Adding to Munir,s post another factor which might help PAF is the commonality of the WS10/ AL31FN/FN3 for FC20 and j11. I would however, go for the twinseater, as i think the J11 is a bit labour intensive.
WaSalam
Araz

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## MastanKhan

Hi Araz,

What Muradk has done, is thrown a big big monkey wrench in the gears---if and when PAF goes for the J 11's---nothing that india can get from any country in the world that would give IAF the same edge it has over PAF as of today---F 18, F 16 in, Rafael, eurofighter or any other machine---keeping in view that they will not get the F 22.

Our concerns of what india may have or may not have will be over for awhile. It will give us breathing room and will allow us time to settle down and put more focus on where we are headed. There is too much turmoil and un-predictability at this moment in our house---let this un-predictability go some other place.

Also keeping in mind the indian elections---which party comes to power will also be a major deciding factor on who gets the order for mrca.

You are right---twin seaters are a must for today's warfare---the commonality of the engines between the FC 20 and the J 11 will also act as a force multiplier----which means---similiar power plant---resulting in better trained technicians---lesser down time for the maintenance of the machine.

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## Arsalan

sorry to repeat the same info again but it is well in your notice that the J11 is just a LICIENCED COPY of russiann Su27 so how come we get it from china as there will be russian influencing this deal!
on part of russai the RD engine is something else and selling a high tech aircraft which its close and one of the largest customer of arms and ammunition (india) is currently operationg is a completely diferent thing!
this though is a good option but is necer going to materialize!!

also on chines part they may well be more intrested in selling there very own J10 or FC20 rather that the J11 which is, again, just a russian plane,s licienced production!!

i hope it helps,

regards!


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## Muradk

arsalanaslam123 said:


> sorry to repeat the same info again but it is well in your notice that the J11 is just a LICIENCED COPY of russiann Su27 so how come we get it from china as there will be russian influencing this deal!
> on part of russai the RD engine is something else and selling a high tech aircraft which its close and one of the largest customer of arms and ammunition (india) is currently operationg is a completely diferent thing!
> this though is a good option but is necer going to materialize!!
> 
> also on chines part they may well be more intrested in selling there very own J10 or FC20 rather that the J11 which is, again, just a russian plane,s licienced production!!
> 
> i hope it helps,
> 
> regards!



Chinese our best friends didn't even let our pilots go close to J-10 till we said ok we will buy then we asked them to give us a few J-10 they said no , yes our pilots have flown J-11 lets see what the outcome will be. Someone on this forum must be close to Zardari just tell him on J-11 he will get more commission thats it. On the F-16 side we just need to keep our fingers crossed

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## fatman17

araz said:


> I think the Indians are in a bit of a pickle. They want the American tech, but dont trust or rely on them. They want to keep the Russians as their main suppliers but dont have the nerve to say, we wont buy your planes either. No wonder MRCA is taking its time materializing!!!
> MuradK saheb has again set a cat amongst the pigeons by forwarding the idea of J11. It is an interesting proposition. Adding to Munir,s post another factor which might help PAF is the commonality of the WS10/ AL31FN/FN3 for FC20 and j11. I would however, go for the twinseater, as i think the J11 is a bit labour intensive.
> WaSalam
> Araz



i think the indians are playing their cards well - they want the best of both worlds, and they have the money to bandy about! so IMHO they are not in a pickle!

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## IceCold

Muradk said:


> Chinese our best friends didn't even let our pilots go close to J-10 till we said ok we will buy then we asked them to give us a few J-10 they said no , yes our pilots have flown J-11 lets see what the outcome will be. Someone on this forum must be close to Zardari just tell him on J-11 he will get more commission thats it. On the F-16 side we just need to keep our fingers crossed



Sir is it same to assume that we should now look towards an option another then Chinese and therefore do not commit the same mistake we did back then when we relied solely on the US for our defense equipment.
Like we say in urdu apna baal khud dorsa ka haath main pakrai


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## pakpower

So there is a very hot and interesting discussin going on the J-11 wether we buy them or not, or will Russia and India allow this to happened.

Well what they say in Urdu "Jiss galli main jaanaa nahin too phirr uss kaee baarae main baat kaya karnee".

Well now my Question to all you guys, Sir , Teachers, Senior Members, Think Tank, Super Moderators is this that what you guys think that which Jet will be more Suitable for Pakistan as compare to J-11 Jet ?

There are few options available for PAF without any stings and restrictions.

1. Dassault Raffale (Cost is the Factor) but still this factor can be delt with many counter tactics.

2. EuroFighter Typhoon (Cost is the Factor).

In my opinion Raffale would be the best possible option for PAF no doubt it's costly but keeping in mind that India's MRCA, and Raffale will be the best answer to that deal which ever jet gets the go ahead for that deal, most probably will be the F-18 Super Hornet in my gut feelings.

Hey guys the Raffale option is great but this option i m talking about in comparison only with J-11.

FC-20 will is nothing to do with this comparison that deal is on that is different thing.


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## araz

pakpower said:


> So there is a very hot and interesting discussin going on the J-11 wether we buy them or not, or will Russia and India allow this to happened.
> 
> Well what they say in Urdu "Jiss galli main jaanaa nahin too phirr uss kaee baarae main baat kaya karnee".
> 
> Well now my Question to all you guys, Sir , Teachers, Senior Members, Think Tank, Super Moderators is this that what you guys think that which Jet will be more Suitable for Pakistan as compare to J-11 Jet ?
> 
> There are few options available for PAF without any stings and restrictions.
> 
> 1. Dassault Raffale (Cost is the Factor) but still this factor can be delt with many counter tactics.
> 
> 2. EuroFighter Typhoon (Cost is the Factor).
> 
> In my opinion Raffale would be the best possible option for PAF no doubt it's costly but keeping in mind that India's MRCA, and Raffale will be the best answer to that deal which ever jet gets the go ahead for that deal, most probably will be the F-18 Super Hornet in my gut feelings.
> 
> Hey guys the Raffale option is great but this option i m talking about in comparison only with J-11.
> 
> FC-20 will is nothing to do with this comparison that deal is on that is different thing.



Marey bhai,
When Muradk says something you listen with all your orifices open. He just wouldnot say something just for the heck of it. There is reason behind his talk. All the top brass of PAF including Rao Qamar are his students. SO please listen and listen carefully
ARAZ


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## fatman17

*Well now my Question to all you guys, Sir , Teachers, Senior Members, Think Tank, Super Moderators is this that what you guys think that which Jet will be more Suitable for Pakistan as compare to J-11 Jet ?*

1. J-11 has legal and propriety issues, so the chinese are not going to rock the boat (meaning offer it for export) till they somehow settle this issue with the russians.

2. so the only option is FC-20. so lets wait till 2012-14 to see what happens. meanwhile its a long time and anything can happen. PAF history tells us they dont like changing horses in mid-stream (eg; F-16 issue)

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## Manticore

1]
rumour was also there about twin engined super j-10? perhaps it would incorporate most of the avionics of j11b?

2]
if indian pilots are flying mki for some years [more experience] ,, would having the same platform hinder in our actions,, as the indians also know the plus and neg. aspects of the plane? moreover is mki better than j11-b as indians put it?
why not some super j11b with some specs of su35?

3]
i doubt that russia would sue china.. in this way they would lose another big importer of russian goods after india?

4]
j11b/ jf17 block2 combo would be great if we dont have financial constraints and buy them in some good quantities>? i agree that its no fun to buy j10 because ultimately its specs wouls be closely matched with jf-17-block2 anyway


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## Patriot

I don't think we can buy J11 because of Russian issue.OTOH, J10 is not matured.So in case we are sanctioned again then what's the backup plan?


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## Arsalan

come on guys, the J11!! ?? 

look at our resources man, the twin engine plane has been a nightmare for high budget airforces like india! 
although the chines are beleived to have developed a more affordable and quicker maintainance system but still it is hard to folle guys!

for a country like us, we will have to spend minimum possible budget to get the desired results! sir muradk can better guide us about the flying hours of the plane, these planes require more maintainance time after each flight which means PAF will be able to conduct less sorties as they will be able to do with something like the J10 or F16!
we will never have enough planes, atleast in near future to fill in the neumeric gap with india, all that can be done is get the best out of what we have! in these conditions i guess J11 will be a big set back!!

though it is true that the specs of FC20 are not known but then again what about the specs of Su27 with which the indian are quite familiar with are currently operating a far better Su30! wouldnt it be better to get a surprise package like FC20 with secret punch in arsenal rather than the J11 that though improved but would never be as good as the Su30!

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## Arsalan

by the way, what is the extra charm in operating a twin engine plane, though they may be better but dont you think that operating such a mamoth plane requiring such heavy maintainance budget and time will be a big set back for PAF!

what are your comments? all members please!!

regards


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## mean_bird

Arsalan, what Muradk and other senior members are saying is right. Its not like we are getting a heavy fighter in numbers like the JF-17. They would be just one or two squadrons strength. And they are there to supplement the JF-17 and give you the added "punch power". 

Look at it this way..when you boxers are fighting, most of the time its just defensive or provocative punchs but every now and then, a boxers puts all his force and weight and goes for that "power punch" to knock the other down.

Similarly, you need planes in numbers to protect the range of your border. Most of the time you are patrolling your borders but you need some highly aggressive fighters to protect you top locations and also some potentially lethal missions and/or deep strike mission.
Also you form combination of hi-lo fighters thus using your potential to the maximum.

Thats the whole point of having a high-end fighter. Ofcourse these still need to be within our budget and we should have access to them now and it times of difficulty. 



ANTIBODY said:


> 1]
> rumour was also there about twin engined super j-10? perhaps it would incorporate most of the avionics of j11b?
> 
> 2]
> if indian pilots are flying mki for some years [more experience] ,, would having the same platform hinder in our actions,, as the indians also know the plus and neg. aspects of the plane? moreover is mki better than j11-b as indians put it?
> why not some super j11b with some specs of su35?
> 
> 3]
> i doubt that russia would sue china.. in this way they would lose another big importer of russian goods after india?
> 
> 4]
> j11b/ jf17 block2 combo would be great if we dont have financial constraints and buy them in some good quantities>? i agree that its no fun to buy j10 because ultimately its specs wouls be closely matched with jf-17-block2 anyway



Russia already threatened to sue China once when there were rumors of China exporting that plane (to pakistan?). Later Russia withdrew that thread saying there was some 'misunderstanding' and we know the J-11 never got exported. Unlike RD-93, Russia has a major say in the J-11 since it is a direct violation of copyright and propriety issues.

Also J-11B with specs of Su-35? If China had such technology why wouldn't they be making Su-35 and Su-33 for themselves first?

Lets wait and see. J-11 would be a nice option but I have my doubts it will be available for export. China would need some serious advancement in engines before they can offer anyone any decent plane independently.

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## Quwa

From what I know, the J-10B and J-11B are geared towards different roles within the PLA (AF and N). The J-10B is essentially an air superiority fighter based on a highly maneuverable airframe, contemporary ECM/EW and avionics as well as phased-array (AESA) radar. Its job is to defend home airspace from fighters in the league of MRCA and Su-30MKI. Now for the PAF, the FC-20 will also be capable of strike - essentially as a solid multi-role fighter.

If PAF was to also get J-11B, then it would not be acquired in the place of FC-20, but rather to further supplement the fleet. The J-11B is capable of long-range interception thanks to its superior range and payload. I'm not sure, but maybe the larger airframe indicates it can carry more sophisticated ECM/EW-systems and a larger radar? Nonetheless, to PAF I can see J-11B fit well as a key strike and maritime-support fighter.


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## Arsalan

mean_bird said:


> Arsalan, what Muradk and other senior members are saying is right. Its not like we are getting a heavy fighter in numbers like the JF-17. They would be just one or two squadrons strength. And they are there to supplement the JF-17 and give you the added "punch power".
> 
> Look at it this way..when you boxers are fighting, most of the time its just defensive or provocative punchs but every now and then, a boxers puts all his force and weight and goes for that "power punch" to knock the other down.
> 
> Similarly, you need planes in numbers to protect the range of your border. Most of the time you are patrolling your borders but you need some highly aggressive fighters to protect you top locations and also some potentially lethal missions and/or deep strike mission.
> Also you form combination of hi-lo fighters thus using your potential to the maximum.
> 
> Thats the whole point of having a high-end fighter. Ofcourse these still need to be within our budget and we should have access to them now and it times of difficulty.



well this seems to be the only case where getting J11 will be a nice option, stick to your already planned arsenal of JF17, FC20 and F16 adn get 30 - 40 J11 to add extra power!!
but can it be materialized keeping in view the economic situation of our country! we may even be having problem in getting the already finalized packages, even the JF17 and the J10, so how come we get our hands on J11 soecially when it is suuch a budget eater when it comes to maintainance, apart of this it itself will be costing us alot!

what do you people say!

i mean, yes adding something different is always good for the force but the quetion is that can we afford to get and moreover run it!!

regards!


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## IceCold

Everything Chinese will make us too much dependent on the Chinese. Have we ever thought about that. We should not make the same mistake we made back then relying solely on the US. We need to diversify our purchase. Out of the J-10 or J-11 only one should be chosen and if we need to put extra punch to our air force, then we should also look elsewhere. There are more potent fighters available.


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## TOPGUN

I agree with Icecold ! but funds are a big factor plus no one else is willing to sell to us there is also the main point of a fighter having some US parts thats always the issue that comes in play so wat are suppose to do we have to work with wat we got and wat we can get .


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## MastanKhan

Hi

I don't think that there is any other plane of the calibre of J 11 in the price range of 40---60 million dollars each ( am I right about the price ). The only thing that paf needs is parity with iaf---that is all---that is where the game changes. 

Parity with iaf will bring political stability to the region and that is the most important part of the deal---iaf will have to think seriously before making any threatening gestures on pak borders and air space.

Fear of sanctions is always there---so either it is the french or the chinese. We can't touch a french plane for less than 80-90 million dollars a piece ie the rafael.

My request is for the posters to consider this---a stronger paf at par with the iaf will completely change the indian aggressive posture towards pakistan.

At this stage in the game we need not be concerned with what india has (we are concerned )---what we need to be concerned with is, to acquire something that brings us at the same level of SU 30. And that is the J 11---we don't need too many of them--as MuradK suggested a sqdrdn and half at kamra and a sqdrn and half at karachi and we have all our bases covered.

If we can't get the J 11's under any condition at all---then I am pretty sure that the numbers of Jf 17 and the Fc 20 will be juggled around---and then there are always those m2k-5/9 coming up sale in a couple to three years time from qatar and uae.


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## fatman17

saadahmed said:


> I don't think we can buy J11 because of Russian issue.OTOH, J10 is not matured.*So in case we are sanctioned again then what's the backup plan?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> keep kissing the US A$$!


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## Patriot

IceCold said:


> Everything Chinese will make us too much dependent on the Chinese. Have we ever thought about that. We should not make the same mistake we made back then relying solely on the US. We need to diversify our purchase. Out of the J-10 or J-11 only one should be chosen and if we need to put extra punch to our air force, then we should also look elsewhere. There are more potent fighters available.


Completely agree.We should NEVER rely on one partner.We should buy arms from different countries like Germany, France, China and US (whenever we are not sanctioned ) otherwise China will have a monopoly.


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## Contrarian

MastanKhan said:


> At this stage in the game we need not be concerned with what india has (we are concerned )---what we need to be concerned with is, to acquire something that brings us at the same level of SU 30. And that .



Isnt the point of Indian MRCA contest to get a plane that is more sophisticated than the Su-30MKI and to get technologies that would kickstart the high end aerospace electronics industry in India.


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## Manticore

i agree we should not have all the planes from1 country, considering the technological limitation fact... but saying that we would be totally dependent on china is wrong, cuz most of the deals with them are involving some kind of tot i presume


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## MastanKhan

malaymishra123 said:


> Isnt the point of Indian MRCA contest to get a plane that is more sophisticated than the Su-30MKI and to get technologies that would kickstart the high end aerospace electronics industry in India.





Malay,

How are you? SU 30 is an extremely superior multirole aircraft. Except for the F 22, SU 30 can rule the sky on any given day against any aircraft. So, regardless of what the IAF purchases, it will not get the bang for the buck---they already have a top tier air craft in the arena that they operate in. Which means that there won't be any eye popping performance from the new aircraft---mrca.


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## Arsalan

IceCold said:


> Everything Chinese will make us too much dependent on the Chinese. Have we ever thought about that. We should not make the same mistake we made back then relying solely on the US. We need to diversify our purchase. Out of the J-10 or J-11 only one should be chosen and if we need to put extra punch to our air force, then we should also look elsewhere. There are more potent fighters available.




agreed!

this is the point, we have actually suffered from it in the past!
though china and paksitan hold mutual intrest with each other and there are no chance of any kind of bad relation between these two countries  
but why take the risk!!

now the point is what are other option, sadly enough its a NO!
the europeans are way too expensive! also a point is that we never have money to pay at the point of deal and there is no other country happily willing to give us planes of loan payments!! 

do it is almost NO WAY BACK for us now!!


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## Arsalan

MastanKhan said:


> Malay,
> 
> How are you? SU 30 is an extremely superior multirole aircraft. Except for the F 22, SU 30 can rule the sky on any given day against any aircraft. So, regardless of what the IAF purchases, it will not get the bang for the buck---they already have a top tier air craft in the arena that they operate in. Which means that there won't be any eye popping performance from the new aircraft---mrca.



very true,
the F16 IN or even the F 18 are same but not superior to the Su30!

the issue is only about the F35 as F22 will never be available!!


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## Patriot

arsalanaslam123 said:


> very true,
> the F16 IN or even the F 18 are same but not superior to the Su30!
> 
> the issue is only about the F35 as F22 will never be available!!


Both F16IN and F18 has AESA Radar which is far superior to SU30MKI Pesa Radar.


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## Gucci Juice

MastanKhan said:


> Hi
> 
> I don't think that there is any other plane of the calibre of J 11 in the price range of 40---60 million dollars each ( am I right about the price ). The only thing that paf needs is parity with iaf---that is all---that is where the game changes.
> 
> Parity with iaf will bring political stability to the region and that is the most important part of the deal---iaf will have to think seriously before making any threatening gestures on pak borders and air space.
> 
> Fear of sanctions is always there---so either it is the french or the chinese. We can't touch a french plane for less than 80-90 million dollars a piece ie the rafael.
> 
> My request is for the posters to consider this---a stronger paf at par with the iaf will completely change the indian aggressive posture towards pakistan.
> 
> At this stage in the game we need not be concerned with what india has (we are concerned )---what we need to be concerned with is, to acquire something that brings us at the same level of SU 30. And that is the J 11---we don't need too many of them--as MuradK suggested a sqdrdn and half at kamra and a sqdrn and half at karachi and we have all our bases covered.
> 
> If we can't get the J 11's under any condition at all---then I am pretty sure that the numbers of Jf 17 and the Fc 20 will be juggled around---and then there are always those m2k-5/9 coming up sale in a couple to three years time from qatar and uae.



50-60 j-11s wont stand a chance against 230 mki's, and 120 mirage 2000 and mig-29s which both have practive against j-11 type fighters. i think more are needed, why not cancel j-10 and buy 100 j-11?

and i think the mrca winner will be rafael, why? a lot of common stuff with mirage 2000, along with nice ew, multi role, and aesa coming soon. i want F/A-18 to win but i remember malaysia had problems when the F/A-18 and some Migs were in the same air force, reports said they just didn't work well together. also i think 80 mig-35 may be ordered to keep russia happy. 

i think that makes sense, because no way 200 mrca gonna be produced by 1 vender by 2015 when a LOT of planes going to retire and lca will only come in limited numbers (50 or so by 2015), that way u can order rafael and keep similarity with mirage 2000 and u can order mig-35 to keep similarity with mig-29, that way planes are inducted the fastest and at the lowest maintenence cost and u already got weapons for them too and also some experience with mig-35 anyway.


----------



## Contrarian

MastanKhan said:


> Malay,
> 
> How are you? SU 30 is an extremely superior multirole aircraft. Except for the F 22, SU 30 can rule the sky on any given day against any aircraft. So, regardless of what the IAF purchases, it will not get the bang for the buck---they already have a top tier air craft in the arena that they operate in. Which means that there won't be any eye popping performance from the new aircraft---mrca.



Its good, but its RCS lets it down mate. This is where Typhoon and Rafale score. Along with that, the range of a2g munitions that come with American planes. This apart from having a high serviceability rate. MKI is maintenance intensive.

AESA, solid state EW jammers, most likely newer engines etc etc all will be fit on the Su-30MKI when it goes for its MLU. All is derived from the fact that MKI specs were frozen in '99-2000.


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## mean_bird

MastanKhan said:


> Malay,
> 
> How are you? SU 30 is an extremely superior multirole aircraft. *Except for the F 22, SU 30 can rule the sky on any given day against any aircraft.* So, regardless of what the IAF purchases, it will not get the bang for the buck---they already have a top tier air craft in the arena that they operate in. Which means that there won't be any eye popping performance from the new aircraft---mrca.



Please allow me to differ on that.

Maybe on paper, but I do not think that will happen in reality. Good luck for the MKI against the Rafale and EF Typhoon or the F-16 with DRFM jamming and firing the AIM-120C5. 

I wouldn't be surprised if it struggles against the F-18E/F, F-15K or even the F-16 blk 52. It might have some advantages against a blk 52, but it certainly will not "rule the sky".


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## PAFAce

MastanKhan said:


> SU 30 is an extremely superior multirole aircraft. Except for the F 22, SU 30 can rule the sky on any given day against any aircraft.



I know at least one USAF fighter pilot who disagrees with you. Guess who it is?

Bold statement to make despite all that has been discussed on these forums before.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Well, thankyou very much for the responce. On any given day, a JF 17 may down an Su---so---did I say any thing wrong  ---just like you may say---any given day pakistan can beat australia---they just did it today. So--- have one on me.


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## PAFAce

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Well, thankyou very much for the responce. On any given day, a JF 17 may down an Su---so---did I say any thing wrong  ---just like you may say---any given day pakistan can beat australia---they just did it today. So--- have one on me.



Yes we did, amazingly. All hope is not lost for our cricket team.

As for the Su-30 business, I claimed nothing of the sort, sir. I said I know at least one USAF pilot who disagrees that "except F-22 the Su-30MKI rules the skies". I think that was a pretty unresearched statement to make for a man as experienced as you are. Your knowledge makes everything you say very credible, but that does not take away from the fact that the statement was not _entirely_ accurate. Ofcourse, you are entitled to your opinion. 

Please forgive my audacity, the intent was pure.


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## MastanKhan

Paface,

I am sorry---you didn't get the pun in my comments. I tried to explain it.

Alright---I am sorry---you win.


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## Arsalan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Well, thankyou very much for the responce. On any given day, a JF 17 may down an Su---so---did I say any thing wrong  ---just like you may say---any given day pakistan can beat australia---they just did it today. So--- have one on me.




lolz, yes it is very true!! 


well for the Su30, it is one of the best in the world! US claim that F18 latest version are 400 times better than the Su30!!
well this is the statement made by the US known for boasting off there equipment whereas russian keep it modest!

though it might not be true that Su30 is THE BEST but without any doubt it is one of them, capable of giving hard time to any plane!!

regards!


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## Arsalan

anyway boss! no point in comparing Su30 with the F18 now!

we might be facing both mammoths by 2015!

all our hopes are now pinned to FC20 and F16 block 52Q hope both these deals are materialized!!

regards!


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## CanadianPad

Neo posted in Air crashes thread about different F-16's that PAF lost.
I noticed a lot of variety of block15's. Wondering what are the differences?
PAF 14 sqn F-16A Block 15U
PAF 38 TW F-16B Block 15N
PAF 38 TW F-16A Block 15T
PAF 14 sqn F-16A Block 15S
PAF 38 TW F-16A Block 15Q


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## TOPGUN

Guy's any news on our f-16's ??


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## DANGER-ZONE

CAN OUR F-16 B-15 LAUNCHES BVR MISSILES AND AIM-7 SPARROW?
NEED HELP?
REGARDS


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## Patriot

AIM7 is old missile.They will launch AIM120/C5 AMRAAM BVR missile.


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## Arsalan

danger-zone said:


> CAN OUR F-16 B-15 LAUNCHES BVR MISSILES AND AIM-7 SPARROW?
> NEED HELP?
> REGARDS




brother no offense to you but sadly enough all your post have a same answer!!
do some research, the net is full of this info! the very thread you are posting your question have detailed discussion about pakistani F16 firing BVR!

anyhow for a quick review:
currently no PAF plane is able to fire BVR missiles. (this includes F16)
pakistani F16 will be able to fire BVR Aim 120C5 after the MLU is completed and also the new block 52, IF we get them will be able to use these missiles!
i hope this helps you and yaar please dont take my post offensive but i will suggest you do do some research of your own and this surely will be benificial for you!

regards!


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## Arsalan

saadahmed said:


> AIM7 is old missile.They will launch AIM120/C5 AMRAAM BVR missile.



this will happen but after MLU is done, currently our F166 Blk15 are not able to fire BVR missiles!


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## Patriot

arsalanaslam123 said:


> brother no offense to you but sadly enough all your post have a same answer!!
> do some research, the net is full of this info! the very thread you are posting your question have detailed discussion about pakistani F16 firing BVR!
> 
> anyhow for a quick review:
> currently no PAF plane is able to fire BVR missiles. (this includes F16)
> pakistani F16 will be able to fire BVR Aim 120C5 after the MLU is completed and also the new block 52, IF we get them will be able to use these missiles!
> i hope this helps you and yaar please dont take my post offensive but i will suggest you do do some research of your own and this surely will be benificial for you!
> 
> regards!



Wrong.JF-17 can launch PL12/SD-10.


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## Arsalan

self deleted


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## Arsalan

saadahmed said:


> Wrong.JF-17 can launch PL12/SD-10.



sir the JF is still not battle ready and not operational at squadron level! 
surely it can fire the BVR but i guess we have to wait for some tome to see the plane battle ready. according to the news and discussion on this very forum, JF is undergoing evaluation and weapon integration and first squadron will be declared operational by september!

anyways no doubt in your point that JF can fire SD10 BVR missilies 

regards!


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## AzadPakistan

I think Pakistan shoudl have may be 20 JF17 Thunder fighters by end of this year


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## Munir

Does it really matter that we have not enough BVR to counter? I doubt that. It only makes our airforce defense more difficult. But the whole system is multi layered and goes up to Babur and nukes... I am not worried. We have mabe some holes but the endresult will not be changed if we had them closed.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

It is extremely important to have a large number of extremely potent BVR missiles at hand---as a matter of fact it must be something that ought to be on the top of the priority list of the PAF---so AMRAAM becomes a weapon of choice AND A MEGA MEGA FORCE MULTIPLIER for a smaller paf when facing an opponent the size of IAF.

As paf cannot compete with the iaf over the number of planes---the only thing that it can come up with are the BVR's---the u s will supply the amraam's to pakistan---for the u s the amraams and the F 16 blk 52 do not tip the power balance against the iaf but rather gives the paf enough platforms and firepower to stay away from using the nuclear option and iaf taking liberty at flying into pakistan at their discretion.

Even though the paf is getting the sd10----which is fine and good---but it is no match for what the iaf has right now---all the missiles systems in the iaf armour are seasoned systems---like any othetr chinese system in operatin---it would take them 5 to 10 years to get mature. Paf must keep its options open for the u s and french bvr's.

The nuclear option by pakistan is not acceptable at any cost. Pakistan has the resource, the ability and the force to take on the iaf in the next 5 to 10 years.

Once the paf crosses over the minimum number threshold of bvr amraams, blk52's, upgraded f 16's and a couple of hundred jf 17's---the iaf would have lost all techincal edge of neutrlizing paf at its discretion----the amraam would take the edge out of the su 30 threat to the paf.

It actual warfare----the air battle and supermacy will depend upon how of the much and what kind of dominant role does the su 30, the m2k's, the mig 21 bis and the jaguars play in the first 72 hours of the start of hostilities---and how much of losses can the iaf handle in that time frame.

The number of su 30's lost in the initial stages of the war will make or break the iaf. The bottomline is that air war will be decided by the bvr's.


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## Arsalan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is extremely important to have a large number of extremely potent BVR missiles at hand---as a matter of fact it must be something that ought to be on the top of the priority list of the PAF---so AMRAAM becomes a weapon of choice AND A MEGA MEGA FORCE MULTIPLIER for a smaller paf when facing an opponent the size of IAF.
> 
> As paf cannot compete with the iaf over the number of planes---the only thing that it can come up with are the BVR's---the u s will supply the amraam's to pakistan---for the u s the amraams and the F 16 blk 52 do not tip the power balance against the iaf but rather gives the paf enough platforms and firepower to stay away from using the nuclear option and iaf taking liberty at flying into pakistan at their discretion.
> 
> Even though the paf is getting the sd10----which is fine and good---but it is no match for what the iaf has right now---all the missiles systems in the iaf armour are seasoned systems---like any othetr chinese system in operatin---it would take them 5 to 10 years to get mature. Paf must keep its options open for the u s and french bvr's.
> 
> The nuclear option by pakistan is not acceptable at any cost. Pakistan has the resource, the ability and the force to take on the iaf in the next 5 to 10 years.
> 
> Once the paf crosses over the minimum number threshold of bvr amraams, blk52's, upgraded f 16's and a couple of hundred jf 17's---the iaf would have lost all techincal edge of neutrlizing paf at its discretion----the amraam would take the edge out of the su 30 threat to the paf.
> 
> It actual warfare----the air battle and supermacy will depend upon how of the much and what kind of dominant role does the su 30, the m2k's, the mig 21 bis and the jaguars play in the first 72 hours of the start of hostilities---and how much of losses can the iaf handle in that time frame.
> 
> The number of su 30's lost in the initial stages of the war will make or break the iaf. The bottomline is that air war will be decided by the bvr's.



very true! the BVR will be of utmost importance, specially with all the AWACAS flying around we do need to neutralize them!
a good BVR will surely cancle out the Su30 edge that the IAF have right now!

as rightly said that 


> The bottomline is that air war will be decided by the bvr's


i would like to add that
*war itself will be decided by the air war!*

any war between pakistan and india, if it happens to break out! wont be for the gain or capture of territory but will be to inflict as much damage to the opponent as possible by destroying its assets like dams, airports, factories and all the things which when destroyed will take the country decades back!! and for this role the Airforce will be of prime importance!

although missiles are an option but they will be expensive and the worlds reaction will be sever!
so all in all the airforce will be of key importance! also navy will have its role to play to keep the sea routs open!!

Regards!

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## Munir

If air war was that good then wh did the take ground forces into the battle in Irac and Afghanistan? Some overestimate IAF b having a few mki's and BVR...


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Arsalan has stated it correctly---present day war between india would be the destruction of strategic targets---whosoever does the more damage will come out ahead---iraq and afghanistan were different scenarios---the u s wanted to take control of the country---over here such is not the case.

The iaf will have to throw in the creme de la creme of their strike force in the air----that is what they have been talking about for the last ten plus years---so the iaf and paf will be playing a major role for their respective countries---at the end of the day, it will be the numbers game---if the paf can contain the su 30 threat and bring them down in large numbers---the war will take a different turn---a damage to a large number of su 30's will be a terrible blow to the psyche of iaf and india---at that stage the situation may take a turn for the worst---an angry iaf and a disappointed india may go for the ultimate weapon---they might set off the first nuclear strike against the air force bases at sargodha, karachi and peshawar.

Wars are a terrible things---once they start---predictability goes out of the window---the unexpected become the heroes and the dependable get the loose bowel syndrome.

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## mean_bird

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Arsalan has stated it correctly---present day war between india would be the destruction of strategic targets---whosoever does the more damage will come out ahead---iraq and afghanistan were different scenarios---the u s wanted to take control of the country---over here such is not the case.
> 
> The iaf will have to throw in the creme de la creme of their strike force in the air----that is what they have been talking about for the last ten plus years---so the iaf and paf will be playing a major role for their respective countries---at the end of the day, it will be the numbers game---if the paf can contain the su 30 threat and bring them down in large numbers---the war will take a different turn---a damage to a large number of su 30's will be a terrible blow to the psyche of iaf and india---at that stage the situation may take a turn for the worst---*an angry iaf and a disappointed india may go for the ultimate weapon---they might set off the first nuclear strike against the air force bases at sargodha, karachi and peshawar.*
> 
> Wars are a terrible things---once they start---predictability goes out of the window---the unexpected become the heroes and the dependable get the loose bowel syndrome.




What??? Mastan Sahib, such a statement from a gentleman like you?

I don't know what people's perception of Nuclear weapons are not ordinary weapons you can employ just to destroy an opponents base. They will not only destroy an airbase but the entire city near it and make it uninhabitable for decades to come. 

Nobody will go for airforce bases in case of a nuclear war. You go for the opponent's strategic assets and command and control center so that they do not strike back. You go for nuclear plants, you go for where you think missiles are stored, you go for the center of the command and control.

The only reason you could ever go for an airforce base is after you finish all the other strategic weapons because you do not want a retaliatory attack but I do not think anyone will be foolish enough to have nuclear assets near an airforce base. If an air launched nuclear attack were to ever happen, the plane would probably take off from a highway or stretched surface from a remote camouflaged location, not an airforce base as the risk is too great. 

The first country to launch a nuclear strike will have to launch all of them together and target the whole of the other country. And yes the implications would be horrible as millions would be annihilated and the region will become unlivable for decades. 

Hopefully sense will prevail and we will avoid any wars in the future. Because wars are like wild-fires...they can die off before even reaching the nearby bushes or they can destroy whole forests and they are unpredictable.

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## MastanKhan

Hi mean-bird,

Thanks for the post. The civilians think in a different manner whereas the warriors look at things differently.

The iaf will not wilfully target civilian site for a nuclear tactical / surgical strike and neither will paf. The anger for the loss will be directed at the air bases from where the planes took off---that has always been the conventional wisdom.

A good example is the dowing of the Atlantique---a female asked Nawaz Sharif---my brother died on that plane---why don't you revenge him---why don't you make a missile strike on that air base from where the indian plane took off.

The weapons used will be basically tactical nukes---with smaller yields---regardless of what indians think---india cannot and willnot start up with high yield nuclear strikes on civilian targets---the problem lies herein---the war between india and pakistan canmnot be fought at all times---it is basically a winter war---the problem with winter time war is that most of the time the direction of the wind is down stream---winds are coming from afghanistan to paksitan to india---so the nuclear cloud would be entering india after a large nuclear strike----now that scenario holds good for 2/3 rd's of pakistan----the lower areas like karachi and part of sindh and baluchistan would not fall into that category.

The problems with the start of hostilities is that we all are dependendant on the personal level of security or insecurity of a few individuals---once the hostilities start---things will go out of control in the blink of an eye---it all comes down to is taking a chance---paf will not wait for its fleet to be decimated and neither would the iaf wait for its su 30's to be annihilated----.

The best scenario for war between pakistan and india is NO WAR---the only way it can stop the war, pakistan needs to procure strike and air superiority fighters to contain the su 30's. Once the the su 30 threat is neutralized, the indian aggressive stance will dissipate. Pakistan does not need to counter iaf number for number in planes---for the reason that iaf would not be placing all their planes on one side---they will have to cover their backs from bangladesh and the flanks from china---so half or a little of their air force will be doing watch duty---which leaves only half or a little more than half for the pakistani front---time is a great neutralizer of things---.

The bottom line is that how insecure the indian decision makers would feel if they see their air force crumbling down---you and I can talk whatever we want to---but I would want to believe that even at the most stressful moments, both sides would refrain from using them indiscretely on civilian population.

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## Arsalan

mean_bird said:


> What??? Mastan Sahib, such a statement from a gentleman like you?
> 
> I don't know what people's perception of Nuclear weapons are not ordinary weapons you can employ just to destroy an opponents base. They will not only destroy an airbase but the entire city near it and make it uninhabitable for decades to come.
> 
> Nobody will go for airforce bases in case of a nuclear war. You go for the opponent's strategic assets and command and control center so that they do not strike back. You go for nuclear plants, you go for where you think missiles are stored, you go for the center of the command and control.
> 
> The only reason you could ever go for an airforce base is after you finish all the other strategic weapons because you do not want a retaliatory attack but I do not think anyone will be foolish enough to have nuclear assets near an airforce base. If an air launched nuclear attack were to ever happen, the plane would probably take off from a highway or stretched surface from a remote camouflaged location, not an airforce base as the risk is too great.
> 
> The first country to launch a nuclear strike will have to launch all of them together and target the whole of the other country. And yes the implications would be horrible as millions would be annihilated and the region will become unlivable for decades.
> 
> Hopefully sense will prevail and we will avoid any wars in the future. Because wars are like wild-fires...they can die off before even reaching the nearby bushes or they can destroy whole forests and they are unpredictable.



very right dear! but i guess you mistook the theam of sir mastan's post!
from what it appeared to me he wanted to discuss every possibility. no one wuth the basic knowledge (sir Mastan is much much more than this) understand that the nukes are more of a military muscel then there role as being used for destruction in war! but yes this can happen! we have two examples, in extreme conditions the US were forced to use them to stop the onslaught by the Japs. though the condiion at that time were very different then they are now but yoiu know "every thing is fair in love and war!!"

anyhow at the moment i guess all of us agree to the point that the nukes are not going to be used in war case. but sadly truth remains the same that war beween india and pakistan is no more for the gain of territiry or assets rather it is to destroy them! so a war at this stage of technology means complete distruction!!

regards!


----------



## Arsalan

Munir said:


> Some overestimate IAF b having a few mki's and BVR...


true, this is not the case. although the IAF seems to have an edge on PAF currently but it will be neutralized once the JF, J10 and the SAAB erieye induction is complete.also the addition of F16 will be helpful if we get them. as for the BVR part the SD10 and the ibg big AIM120C5 will be too good to cancle out the indian BVR threat! completely agreed!

but as far as the first part is concerned


> If air war was that good then wh did the take ground forces into the battle in Irac and Afghanistan?


sir the case with us is not the same! US wanted to capture these regions for there regional economic and strategic intrests, to capture the territory land forces are surely required but this wont be the case with indo pak war! we wont be going for opponents land as it will be no good (and it may be set free once the war is over as world powers will come into play for a cease fire likely to agree on return of forces to the pre war posts!) all the aim of the wasr will be to inflict maximum damage to the enemy by destroying its assets like air bases, factories, armed force bases, nuclear assets and all! and in this case there is no doubt that the airforce will be of prime importance!
i hope you understand what i mean to say!

regards!


----------



## mean_bird

MastanKhan said:


> Hi mean-bird,
> 
> Thanks for the post. The civilians think in a different manner whereas the warriors look at things differently.
> 
> The iaf will not wilfully target civilian site for a nuclear tactical / surgical strike and neither will paf. The anger for the loss will be directed at the air bases from where the planes took off---that has always been the conventional wisdom.
> 
> A good example is the dowing of the Atlantique---a female asked Nawaz Sharif---my brother died on that plane---why don't you revenge him---why don't you make a missile strike on that air base from where the indian plane took off.
> 
> The weapons used will be basically tactical nukes---with smaller yields---regardless of what indians think---india cannot and willnot start up with high yield nuclear strikes on civilian targets---the problem lies herein---the war between india and pakistan canmnot be fought at all times---it is basically a winter war---the problem with winter time war is that most of the time the direction of the wind is down stream---winds are coming from afghanistan to paksitan to india---so the nuclear cloud would be entering india after a large nuclear strike----now that scenario holds good for 2/3 rd's of pakistan----the lower areas like karachi and part of sindh and baluchistan would not fall into that category.
> 
> The problems with the start of hostilities is that we all are dependendant on the personal level of security or insecurity of a few individuals---once the hostilities start---things will go out of control in the blink of an eye---it all comes down to is taking a chance---paf will not wait for its fleet to be decimated and neither would the iaf wait for its su 30's to be annihilated----.
> 
> The best scenario for war between pakistan and india is NO WAR---the only way it can stop the war, pakistan needs to procure strike and air superiority fighters to contain the su 30's. Once the the su 30 threat is neutralized, the indian aggressive stance will dissipate. Pakistan does not need to counter iaf number for number in planes---for the reason that iaf would not be placing all their planes on one side---they will have to cover their backs from bangladesh and the flanks from china---so half or a little of their air force will be doing watch duty---which leaves only half or a little more than half for the pakistani front---time is a great neutralizer of things---.
> 
> The bottom line is that how insecure the indian decision makers would feel if they see their air force crumbling down---you and I can talk whatever we want to---but I would want to believe that even at the most stressful moments, both sides would refrain from using them indiscretely on civilian population.



thanks for the post.

I think you are misjudging the thing. There cannot be such a thing as a "nuclear surgical strike". Nuclear itself is not surgical to begin with but mass destruction. Even a leak from a well protected housing in Chernobyl was enough to render the city unlivable. 

A nuclear bomb is not just a mega bomb you can use to destroy an area. Nobody will wait to see the full implication of a supposedly surgical nuclear attack to determine whether it is surgical or not. Either country will respond with all its might and immediately. 

Nukes are there for the fear factor. Because no matter how much you try to convince yourself that the enemy won't do this and won't do that, but the question remains--"what if?". And nobody has an answer to this question and that is why it is such a deterrent. 



arsalanaslam123 said:


> very right dear! but i guess you mistook the theam of sir mastan's post!
> from what it appeared to me he wanted to discuss every possibility. no one wuth the basic knowledge (sir Mastan is much much more than this) understand that the nukes are more of a military muscel then there role as being used for destruction in war! but yes this can happen! we have two examples, in extreme conditions the US were forced to use them to stop the onslaught by the Japs. though the condiion at that time were very different then they are now but yoiu know "every thing is fair in love and war!!"
> 
> anyhow at the moment i guess all of us agree to the point that the nukes are not going to be used in war case. but sadly truth remains the same that war beween india and pakistan is no more for the gain of territiry or assets rather it is to destroy them! so a war at this stage of technology means complete distruction!!
> 
> regards!



Nobody is doubting the knowledge of MastanKhan here. We just have difference of opinions and each one has a reason for that.

Two things I will add-
- Japan did not have a nuclear weapon
- Japan does not share a border with US. 

There's a good reason nukes weren't used in the cold war and morality isn't amongst them.

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## sancho

arsalanaslam123 said:


> true, this is not the case. although the IAF seems to have an edge on PAF currently but it will be neutralized once the JF, J10 and the SAAB erieye induction is complete.also the addition of F16 will be helpful if we get them. as for the BVR part the SD10 and the ibg big AIM120C5 will be too good to cancle out the indian BVR threat! completely agreed!


Aren't you forgetting something? IAF has not only Su 30 MKIs that are BVR capable, around 70 Mig 29 and 100 Mig 21 Bisons can launch R77 too. That alone would mean nearly 400 BVR capable aircrafts, not to mention that upg Mirage (Jags should be upg too, but not sure if they will get BVR capability), first LCA and MMRCA have to be added till 2015 too.
Of course the Bisons as an aircraft will be no match for PAF new fighters, but the missile will, espacially guided by AWACS!

Objectively you have to admit that the edge can't be neutralized cause PAF can't counter the numbers of fighters, nor the quality of techs and capabilities. For example, Saab AWACS will be a plus for PAF, but IAF already have one in service, the upgraded F16 and the new one will give more power and capabilities, but so will upg Mig 29/ Mirage and more MKIs. The same time when PAF will get J10B, with AESA radar, IAF will get MMRCA with same, or better capabilities, depends on who will win. Even the point that your F16 will have AIM120C5, will be gone by the induction of MMRCA, cause most likely it will have it too (F18SH and EF use it now, EF and Rafale shoud get the Meteor by then). 
PAF and IAF will modernise their fleets and will give us a lot to talk about, but the edge should remain on IAF side.

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## Patriot

sancho said:


> Aren't you forgetting something? IAF has not only Su 30 MKIs that are BVR capable, around 70 Mig 29 and 100 Mig 21 Bisons can launch R77 too. That alone would mean nearly 400 BVR capable aircrafts, not to mention that upg Mirage (Jags should be upg too, but not sure if they will get BVR capability), first LCA and MMRCA have to be added till 2015 too.
> Of course the Bisons as an aircraft will be no match for PAF new fighters, but the missile will, espacially guided by AWACS!
> 
> Objectively you have to admit that the edge can't be neutralized cause PAF can't counter the numbers of fighters, nor the quality of techs and capabilities. For example, Saab AWACS will be a plus for PAF, but IAF already have one in service, the upgraded F16 and the new one will give more power and capabilities, but so will upg Mig 29/ Mirage and more MKIs. The same time when PAF will get J10B, with AESA radar, IAF will get MMRCA with same, or better capabilities, depends on who will win. Even the point that your F16 will have AIM120C5, will be gone by the induction of MMRCA, cause most likely it will have it too (F18SH and EF use it now, EF and Rafale shoud get the Meteor by then).
> PAF and IAF will modernise their fleets and will give us a lot to talk about, but the edge should remain on IAF side.


I dont think PAF wants air superioty over India.PAF mission is to neutralize any attempt by India to establish Air Superioty over Pakistan and provide Air Support to Army.Once we have BVR capable fighters i far one will be able to sleep peacefully knowing that pilot has something to fire before he gets into merge. ( I personally think Dogfights will be common in any indo-pak war).


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## Munir

Any scenario where PAF is no longer able to defend he nation will lead to final nuclear attack from Pak Army. I doubt they will sit and wait IAF making them a small population.


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## blain2

sancho said:


> PAF and IAF will modernise their fleets and will give us a lot to talk about, but the edge should remain on IAF side.



Quantitative and qualitative edge has always been with the IAF in all of the past wars, however the man in the cockpit has made the difference in the air wars in the sub-continent. I see no reason that this case would be any different in the future.

All PAF needs is tools that can deter the IAF's aggressive posture. Training methodology and pilot training are two aspects that PAF can continue to focus on to ensure that we can maintain a credible deterrence in the air.

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## MastanKhan

Hi Arsalan / mean-bird,

Gentlemen---I thankyou for your confidence---but I do have my share of screw ups---if you don't doubt what I say, then you won't pick up the book to find the truth in it.

This discussion if going off topic----but it is an extremely critical---.

You see, india is not your normal adversary. It is a reactionary adversary with a massive knee jerk reaction. What india may do next is not predictable---secondly---pakistan doesnot have a very favourable position in the world at this time.

Now, truly there is no nuclear surgical strike per say---but truthfully, in today's warfare, that is what it will start with---we will reason ourselves that it is just one strike to neutralize one place---but the other side may think of it in a different manner---for them it may be dooms day scenario----so then you are right---a start of hostilities between india and pakistan would end up to be a regretful scenario.

Kargil was a different time---a lots of water has passed under the bridge since then. India doesnot have the same thinking anymore and neither does pakistan. Both the nations are stressed out at this time---so mistakes and error in judgement are bound to happen---the severity of these---the humanity will pay a terrible price.


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## qsaark

blain2 said:


> Quantitative and qualitative edge has always been with the IAF in all of the past wars, however the man in the cockpit has made the difference in the air wars in the sub-continent. I see no reason that this case would be any different in the future.
> 
> All PAF needs is tools that can deter the IAF's aggressive posture. Training methodology and pilot training are two aspects that PAF can continue to focus on to ensure that we can maintain a credible deterrence in the air.


I agree with you, however, if 1965 war had continued for just another week or so, Pakistan Armed Forces would have lost the qualitative edge. I guess Mr. Altaf Gouhar has summed up thing pretty nicely in his book regarding the 1965 war. And again, in the future if India decided to fight for long enough time, I am pretty certain that our forces won&#8217;t be able to hold them due to their sheer number.


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## sancho

blain2 said:


> Quantitative and qualitative edge has always been with the IAF in all of the past wars, however the man in the cockpit has made the difference in the air wars in the sub-continent. I see no reason that this case would be any different in the future.
> 
> All PAF needs is tools that can deter the IAF's aggressive posture. Training methodology and pilot training are two aspects that PAF can continue to focus on to ensure that we can maintain a credible deterrence in the air.


I agree with you and Patriot that in our region, with the close borders dogfights are very likely. But we have to see the changes to the wars in the past, BVR missiles, AWACS support, long range cruise missiles, that are capabilities that puts the pilot in second line. He don't have to get WVR to engage another fighter necessarily, also not to enter enemy airspace to do a strike. 
If you think about the last Irak, or Kosovo war, nearly all kills was BVR kills and in future with more and more unmanned aircrafts, the pilot loses importance very fast.


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## Munir

The drones do not fill the gap neiher do airforces the whole job... It takes a lot of time and expenses to win. And sofar in Serbia they did not win. They even lost F117...


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## Arsalan

mean_bird said:


> Nobody is doubting the knowledge of MastanKhan here. We just have difference of opinions and each one has a reason for that.
> 
> Two things I will add-
> - Japan did not have a nuclear weapon
> - Japan does not share a border with US.
> 
> There's a good reason nukes weren't used in the cold war and morality isn't amongst them.


 i never said that friend!
all i stated is my niew point!

however chill out we are all getting good things from this discussion, keep on with it!

thanks!
regards!

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## Munir

The real face of americans... Unreliable and pro India...

>>>WASHINGTON: The US House of Representatives has dropped an explicit demand for access to Dr A.Q. Khan and another for preventing terrorist attacks against India as conditions in a legislation that triples US aid to Pakistan.
In Washington&#8217;s diplomatic circles, the gesture is seen as a major concession from a house that has placed other severe conditions in the aid to Pakistan act approved on Thursday.

In April, when the two conditions were first reported in the media, Pakistan took a strong stance and said it felt &#8216;humiliated&#8217; by the language of the bill implicating the country in nuclear proliferation and cross-border terrorism.

Pakistan was particularly sensitive about the clause that required it to improve relations with India as a pre-condition for US assistance, pointing out that it amounted to micromanaging a sovereign nation&#8217;s foreign policy.

The Obama administration backed Islamabad on this issue and succeeded in removing the two conditions from the bill.

But pro-Indian lawmakers tried to revive the conditions on Thursday when the House finally approved the legislation. Congressman Gary Ackerman &#8212; one of the most outspoken supporters of India in the US Congress &#8212; tried also to restrict Pakistan from using the US aid to buy jets and other weapons to confront India.

The House Foreign Affairs Committee, however, had already reworked the language to say that Islamabad would have to provide &#8216;access to Pakistani nationals&#8217; connected to proliferation networks and omitted the part that named Dr Khan.

The reworked bill also required Pakistan to &#8216;cease support, including by any elements within the Pakistan military or its intelligence agency, to extremist and terrorist groups&#8217; and &#8216;preventing cross-border attacks into neighbouring countries&#8217; as a condition for US security assistance.

The omission of Dr Khan and India from the bill does save the Pakistani government from total humiliation but the bill passed by the house would still hold Pakistan accountable on these two specific demands.


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## IceCold

I have a question maybe it sounds stupid but cant really resist not to ask. Why was Pakistan not able to re-configure/modify its F-16s during the 90's era when we were under US sactions? Iran has done the same with its F-14, Cobras, why can't the same be done with our existing fleet of F-16s. The reason behing me asking this question is that we till date have no operational BVR capability. FInding a BVR missile would have not been that hard if only we could have modified our F-16s to fire one or is it really that hard to modify F-16s computer software to fire one. 
With regards to my question i would ask some senior memeber to perhaps shed some light on to the matter, maybe some one who was actually linked with the whole project.


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## Patriot

I would like to know that as well.Why did PAF Not equip F16's with some French Radar and Missiles?Or is it not allowed by US


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## TOPGUN

Ok no offense to anyone but it seems as most posts here have moved away from the f-16 thread to other stories ! can we plzz stick with the topic thx.


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## mean_bird

Today, COAS Gen. Ashfaq Pervaiz Kiyani flew in an F-16 and took part in the ongoing operation in Swat.


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## mean_bird



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## TOPGUN

Munir said:


> Any scenario where PAF is no longer able to defend he nation will lead to final nuclear attack from Pak Army. I doubt they will sit and wait IAF making them a small population.



First of that is not the case we can still defend our airspace so don't be negaitve ! second if nukes are used then there will be small population on both sides thisis not a guessing game its serious business many lives will be lost don't have so much pride in your iaf we are nothing less will give a punch for a punch sleep on that lets just hope for peace rahter then have wet dreams!


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## anathema

I was seeing the below vid about PAF F16's. But i coudnt see any conformal tanks on these F16's. I believe Blck 52 does has conformal tanks. Am i correct or have i got it wrong ? 
And what is the radar on blck 52 paf ?


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## Tempest II

Conformal tanks can be removed. See here: File:F-15E CFT.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The PAF is getting APG-68(V)7.


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## waqasjj

Pakistan Armed forces has one thing which is not available in any super power that is IMAN.So PAF is the Super Power amonst all Air Forces of All Non Muslims.Am i right?


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## mean_bird

anathema said:


> I was seeing the below vid about PAF F16's. But i coudnt see any conformal tanks on these F16's. I believe Blck 52 does has conformal tanks. Am i correct or have i got it wrong ?
> And what is the radar on blck 52 paf ?



These are the previously embargoed PAF F-16A/B blk 15 OCU not block 52.



Tempest II said:


> Conformal tanks can be removed. See here: File:F-15E CFT.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The PAF is getting APG-68(V)7.



The block 52 (as well as MLU) will have APG-68v*9*

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## mean_bird

*Pratt & Whitney to Begin Delivery of the Next Generation of F100 Series Engines*

--*New series incorporates fifth generation engine technology to increase inspection interval from 4,300 to 6,000 cycles for reduced operating costs and increased durability *

LE BOURGET, France, June 15, 2009 /PRNewswire-FirstCall via COMTEX/ -- PARIS AIR SHOW -- Pratt & Whitney has delivered the first 6,000 cycle production hardware for assembly of the F100-PW-229 engine enhancement package (EEP). Pratt & Whitney's F100 engine family powers F-16 and F-15 military fighter jets operated by the U.S. Air Force, U.S. Navy and the air forces of 22 allied nations. Pratt & Whitney is a United Technologies Corp. /quotes/comstock/13*!utx/quotes/nls/utx (UTX 54.63, -0.09, -0.16%) company.

The F100-PW-229 EEP was created to dramatically decrease the cost of engine ownership without costly upgrade kits that significantly impact engine configuration. *This was accomplished by inserting fifth generation fighter engine technologies from the F119 engine powering the F-22 and F135 engine powering the F-35.* This increased the engine depot inspection interval from 4,300 to 6,000 cycles and improved the durability of key components while maintaining the 29,100 pound thrust rating.

The inspection interval increase extends the amount of time between scheduled depot maintenance from an average of seven to nine years to more than 10 to 14 years, depending on utilization rates. This increase is expected to reduce life cycle costs by 30 percent over the life of the engine. The F100-PW-229 EEP continues to be the only fighter engine qualified by the U.S. Air Force to 6,000 cycle capability.

"The F100-PW-229 EEP is another example of Pratt & Whitney's pioneering work in fighter engine technology," said Bill Gostic, vice president, Pratt & Whitney Military Programs and Customer Support. "Delivery of the 6,000 cycle hardware for the new -229 EEP provides tangible cost-of-ownership and engine readiness benefits to our customers."

The F100-PW-229 EEP represents the latest evolution in the F100 series of engines, recognized worldwide for its safety, reliability and cost effective operation. Pratt & Whitney offers its customers the ability to purchase the F100-PW-229 EEP as a complete engine or as an engine assembly kit. The engine enhancement package can also be incorporated into existing F100-PW-229 engines during scheduled depot maintenance.

Initial F100-PW-229 EEP engine deliveries for Republic of Korea F-15 aircraft will begin in 2009 and* for Pakistan F-16 aircraft in 2010*. Morocco has also selected the F100-PW-229 EEP engines for installation in its F-16 aircraft with anticipated delivery starting in 2010.

Pratt & Whitney is a world leader in the design, manufacture and service of aircraft engines, space propulsion systems and industrial gas turbines. United Technologies, based in Hartford, Conn., is a diversified company providing high technology products and services to the global aerospace and commercial building industries.

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## MastanKhan

waqasjj said:


> Pakistan Armed forces has one thing which is not available in any super power that is IMAN.So PAF is the Super Power amonst all Air Forces of All Non Muslims.Am i right?





Hi,

As for me---you are not right. And whosoever is telling you that is ill-informed as well. Have you ever talked to soldiers of other faiths---you may well be surprised to find that they also have 'iman' and faith and they also pray to their God for their salvation and victory.

Every person and individual has their faith and 'iman' and belief---the one who applies himself better will come out ahead. The proof is always in the PUDDING.

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## sergente rehan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> As for me---you are not right. And whosoever is telling you that is ill-informed as well. Have you ever talked to soldiers of other faiths---you may well be surprised to find that they also have 'iman' and faith and they also pray to their God for their salvation and victory.
> 
> Every person and individual has their faith and 'iman' and belief---the one who applies himself better will come out ahead. The proof is always in the PUDDING.



Only one thing on which i don't agree with you is the word "IMAN".
This word is used and have value only for Muslims.


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## Desertfalcon

I havn't gone through this entire thread..._wow, 33 pages_, but a discussion here came up yesterday about PAF, BVR missiles. Does the PAF's F-16's have the AIM-120? In the USAF, we armed some Falcons with that missile for "home" air defence in our Guard units, does the PAF use it's AIM-120's on the F-16 or another aircraft?


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## sancho

Desertfalcon said:


> I havn't gone through this entire thread..._wow, 33 pages_, but a discussion here came up yesterday about PAF, BVR missiles. Does the PAF's F-16's have the AIM-120? In the USAF, we armed some Falcons with that missile for "home" air defence in our Guard units, does the PAF use it's AIM-120's on the F-16 or another aircraft?


500 AIM 120 C are ordered and should come with new block 52, they are only for F16s at the moment.

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## MastanKhan

sergente rehan said:


> Only one thing on which i don't agree with you is the word "IMAN".
> This word is used and have value only for Muslims.



Hi,

Oh my dear buddy---there is so much to learn in life---just reach out and touch someone.

What do you think that jesuit priest had in his mind and soul when he was alone by himself walking the jungles of philipines, south america---it was 'iman'---in africa, in south asia every where they went on foot and against all odds---they had something in them that made them take those steps---and that something is 'iman'.

Lets not belittle the belief of mankind wherever they are.

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## IceCold

mean_bird said:


> *Pratt & Whitney to Begin Delivery of the Next Generation of F100 Series Engines*
> 
> --*New series incorporates fifth generation engine technology to increase inspection interval from 4,300 to 6,000 cycles for reduced operating costs and increased durability *
> 
> LE BOURGET, France, June 15, 2009 /PRNewswire-FirstCall via COMTEX/ -- PARIS AIR SHOW -- Pratt & Whitney has delivered the first 6,000 cycle production hardware for assembly of the F100-PW-229 engine enhancement package (EEP). Pratt & Whitney's F100 engine family powers F-16 and F-15 military fighter jets operated by the U.S. Air Force, U.S. Navy and the air forces of 22 allied nations. Pratt & Whitney is a United Technologies Corp. /quotes/comstock/13*!utx/quotes/nls/utx (UTX 54.63, -0.09, -0.16%) company.
> 
> The F100-PW-229 EEP was created to dramatically decrease the cost of engine ownership without costly upgrade kits that significantly impact engine configuration. *This was accomplished by inserting fifth generation fighter engine technologies from the F119 engine powering the F-22 and F135 engine powering the F-35.* This increased the engine depot inspection interval from 4,300 to 6,000 cycles and improved the durability of key components while maintaining the 29,100 pound thrust rating.
> 
> The inspection interval increase extends the amount of time between scheduled depot maintenance from an average of seven to nine years to more than 10 to 14 years, depending on utilization rates. This increase is expected to reduce life cycle costs by 30 percent over the life of the engine. The F100-PW-229 EEP continues to be the only fighter engine qualified by the U.S. Air Force to 6,000 cycle capability.
> 
> "The F100-PW-229 EEP is another example of Pratt & Whitney's pioneering work in fighter engine technology," said Bill Gostic, vice president, Pratt & Whitney Military Programs and Customer Support. "Delivery of the 6,000 cycle hardware for the new -229 EEP provides tangible cost-of-ownership and engine readiness benefits to our customers."
> 
> The F100-PW-229 EEP represents the latest evolution in the F100 series of engines, recognized worldwide for its safety, reliability and cost effective operation. Pratt & Whitney offers its customers the ability to purchase the F100-PW-229 EEP as a complete engine or as an engine assembly kit. The engine enhancement package can also be incorporated into existing F100-PW-229 engines during scheduled depot maintenance.
> 
> Initial F100-PW-229 EEP engine deliveries for Republic of Korea F-15 aircraft will begin in 2009 and* for Pakistan F-16 aircraft in 2010*. Morocco has also selected the F100-PW-229 EEP engines for installation in its F-16 aircraft with anticipated delivery starting in 2010.
> 
> Pratt & Whitney is a world leader in the design, manufacture and service of aircraft engines, space propulsion systems and industrial gas turbines. United Technologies, based in Hartford, Conn., is a diversified company providing high technology products and services to the global aerospace and commercial building industries.



Which F-16s are we talking about here in case of Pakistan. Also can the new engine equip the existing F-16s of Pakistan?


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## blain2

The ones coming up for delivery are the blk52s. The 14 additional blk-15s which were acquired from the US under EDA also have the PW-229s as part of Falcon Up/STAR upgrades to these aircraft before they went into service with the PAF.

That leaves the original 32 blk-15 F-26s, all of which have the older F100-PW-200 turbofans. These engines will not be upgraded as part of the MLU based on what I know.

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## hj786

waqasjj said:


> Pakistan Armed forces has one thing which is not available in any super power that is IMAN.So PAF is the Super Power amonst all Air Forces of All Non Muslims.Am i right?



No, you're wrong. Only God decides who is a super power, not you. Don't talk about Islam like that if you don't know anything.


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## delta

HEY SHOULDN'T U GUYS THINK PAKISTAN SHOULD STOP LOOKING D AMERICANS THEIR SUPPORT HAS ALWAYS BEEN CONDITIONAL N DAY R NOT RELIABLE I THINK WE SHOULD DROP THE F-16S THEY OLD N ONE THE BEING PROVIDED TO US ARE WITH LIMITED RANGE V SHOULD GO FOR MIRAGE, RAFAEL OR CHINESE JETS


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## SBD-3

delta said:


> HEY SHOULDN'T U GUYS THINK PAKISTAN SHOULD STOP LOOKING D AMERICANS THEIR SUPPORT HAS ALWAYS BEEN CONDITIONAL N DAY R NOT RELIABLE I THINK WE SHOULD DROP THE F-16S THEY OLD N ONE THE BEING PROVIDED TO US ARE WITH LIMITED RANGE V SHOULD GO FOR MIRAGE, RAFAEL OR CHINESE JETS


we need western tech so as to get used to the latest developments in every field.Look at Thunder, we imparted lot of things from Falcon to it FC-K1 and F-2 F-50 are also based on Falcon improvement needs to go on nothing happens in space 
zindabad

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## MaXimMaRz

blain2 said:


> The ones coming up for delivery are the blk52s. The 14 additional blk-15s which were acquired from the US under EDA also have the PW-229s as part of Falcon Up/STAR upgrades to these aircraft before they went into service with the PAF.
> 
> That leaves the original 32 blk-15 F-26s, all of which have the older F100-PW-200 turbofans. These engines will not be upgraded as part of the MLU based on what I know.



Just adding to your post these F-16s will have alot of strict conditions and NO NO list attached to them and there will be alot of security locks !!! If i were the government i would have started my search for some amazing computer wiz. we need to crack those codes as soon as we get the planes


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## SBD-3

but we do need them at the moment cuz FC-20s will be coming in 2014-15.IAF still fears falcons (they havent tasted thuder yet) but we need an Immediate detterence Falcons are just that


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## SBD-3

where is every one?


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## SQ8

MaXimMaRz said:


> Just adding to your post these F-16s will have alot of strict conditions and NO NO list attached to them and there will be alot of security locks !!! If i were the government i would have started my search for some amazing computer wiz. we need to crack those codes as soon as we get the planes



Source codes for US fighters are usually in ADA.. a language designed for security, you can put all the resources you have and still not get anything out of it.


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## Munir

Tusas Inks Deal To Modernize Pakistan F-16 Jets

ISTANBUL -(Dow Jones)- Turkish company Turk Havacilik ve Uzay Sanayii, or Tusas, has signed a deal with Pakistan's Defence Production Ministry to modernize 42 of Pakistan's F-16 aircrafts, Tusas said Monday, the Ihlas News Agency, or IHA, reported.

In statement, Tusas said the project for the modernization of F-16 aircrafts will cost around $75 million and the project will start in October 2010.

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## TOPGUN

Good news! we need to get our birds up to speed i love this aircraft ..


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## jawadqamar

> UPDATE 1-Turkey's Tusas says to modernise Pakistan's F-16s | Markets | Markets News | Reuters
> 
> UPDATE 1-Turkey's Tusas says to modernise Pakistan's F-16s
> 
> **Says deal worth around $75 million
> 
> * Project to start in Oct 2010, take 46 months *
> 
> ANKARA, June 29 (Reuters) - Turkish defence company Tusas said on Monday it would modernise 42 of Pakistan's F-16 jet fleet in a deal it said would be worth around $75 million.
> 
> The project will begin in Oct 2010 in Tusas facilities and will take 46 months, the company said in a written statement sent to Reuters.
> 
> Tusas has modernised Jordan's F-16 fighters in a deal signed in 2006.
> 
> NATO member Turkey and Pakistan have close military and strategic ties.
> 
> Tusas signed a $500 million agreement with Airbus (EAD.PA) to produce parts for A350 planes. (Reporting by Zerin Elci; Editing by Hans Peters)



*So F-16 MLU program will be completed by September 2014*


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## Myth_buster_1

This news is very very saaaad!! 2014! OMG
and we were under impression that the MLU is already under going and will take no more then 2 years to be completed. 2011 MAX!

IS PAF behind? 

this is almost mid of 2009 and no F-16 MLU, NO combat ready JF-17 sqd, no AEW, and no BVR AAM??


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## MastanKhan

Growler said:


> This news is very very saaaad!! 2014! OMG
> and we were under impression that the MLU is already under going and will take no more then 2 years to be completed. 2011 MAX!
> 
> IS PAF behind?
> 
> this is almost mid of 2009 and no F-16 MLU, NO combat ready JF-17 sqd, no AEW, and no BVR AAM??





Hi,

Hasn't anyone heard my screams, full of pain, over these past 4 years---why do you think I have been crying my heart out at every oppurtunity that I get---for the same reason. We have been let down by our very own---these people who thought that they were somebody---were sleeping at their jobs.

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## Stealth

no sense!! 2014 our F16s near BLK40 and that time F16s BLOCK 80 onaiiiiiiiiiiiir!!!! lol good game by Turkey (Undercontrol by US) nice game Unitedstate GG!

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## SBD-3

block 80!!! i think UASF would have retired its falcons and switch to lightening
block 70 is a possibility with IAF going for F-16 in MCRA but not Block-80


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Stealth said:


> no sense!! 2014 our F16s near BLK40 and that time F16s BLOCK 80 onaiiiiiiiiiiiir!!!! lol good game by Turkey (Undercontrol by US) nice game Unitedstate GG!



dude what are you talking about?????

Nobody forced us to undergo the MLUs, we chose it ourselves.


OBVIOUSLY when they are updating air frame/avionics/hydraulics/engine/radar/pods/etc. it takes a lot of time.

These are old F16s from Zia ul-F*cks era....A/B Block 15s!

After MLU, they will basically be block 52 and comparable to the 18 new F16 c/d 52s that we are getting in mid 2010.


it is times like this where being a little......spiritual......can help. Be patient yaar!

The Tusas deal was a competitive bid. Tusas gave the best price, and we have accepted the tender for 46 aircrafts.


We should be happy that they will do a good job providing MLU kits to our flagship aircrafts.....not whining and saying it takes too long



are u people that much in a rush to shoot indians?

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## sergente rehan

I read in the previous post that atleast 4 F-16's were going MLU in US. what about them?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

As far as i know, 2 (or possibly 4) of the aircrafts are in Ankara at the moment. The rest will be upgraded by TUSAS in Pakistan --most likely Sarghoda or Kamra.

obviously these things are a bit hard to keep track of. But we should be very happy that the older F16s will be updated to meet today's standards.

I just hope that after the MLU are complete, we will get the green-light to arm the MLU'd F16s with Lockheed Martin Sniper Targetting Pods 

We ordered 18 of these pods which will be included in the new F16 block 52s which we are to receive in the near future.

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## Arsalan

jawadqamar said:


> *So F-16 MLU program will be completed by September 2014*




i think this is the post from where all ou people got it wrong!

seniors, and other members the post states that the turkish upgrade to start from 2010, it is NOT the MLU!

the MLU is being carried out by the US adn will be done earlier! the post was regarding some upgrades that the turkish will bring to our block 15 MLU F16z so it will will further be modrenised!

i hope you get the point now that the MLU and the turkish upgrades are different programmes!

anyhow regarless of this i do agree with Mastan Sb that all that he had been screaming  is totally right! the US MLU may well turn out to be a stab in the back!! we MUST NOT TRUST THE US!!

regards!


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## mean_bird

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i think this is the post from where all ou people got it wrong!
> 
> seniors, and other members the post states that the turkish upgrade to start from 2010, it is NOT the MLU!
> 
> the MLU is being carried out by the US adn will be done earlier! the post was regarding some upgrades that the turkish will bring to our block 15 MLU F16z so it will will further be modrenised!
> 
> i hope you get the point now that the MLU and the turkish upgrades are different programmes!



I think it is one and the same. The equipment will be bought from US and the word done in Turkey. Remember also that the F-16 will undergo both the MLU for incorporating newer equipments and the Falcon Star upgrade for zeroing the life of the airframe



arsalanaslam123 said:


> anyhow regarless of this i do agree with Mastan Sb that all that he had been screaming  is totally right! the US MLU may well turn out to be a stab in the back!! we MUST NOT TRUST THE US!!
> 
> regards!



And what options did we have? 

Go for the Grippen/EF? same US control. Besides, Sweden even said the Grippen isn't on offer. Go for french Rafales? I don't think we can afford it. All talk goes back to "supposed" UAE Mirages on sale but UAE has yet to buy the Rafale. Its only 'if' we buy it and 'when' UAE recieves its Rafales would these planes be available to us. 

I think we have talked about it enough already to start another debate. THe best thing is get EU components in JF-17 and get it up in the airs ASAP. What I would be complaining about is not the F-16 but sanctions have been off since 2002-3. Why haven't we finalized the EU avioncs for JF-17 yet?

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## Munir

mean_bird said:


> THe best thing is get EU components in JF-17 and get it up in the airs ASAP. What I would be complaining about is not the F-16 but sanctions have been off since 2002-3. Why haven't we finalized the EU avioncs for JF-17 yet?



Meanbird.... Thanks to this government we started the JF17 production today while we could have started it in 2007... This government was not willing to finance it so PAF got soft loans from China... Do we have to talk more?

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## BATMAN

Munir said:


> Meanbird.... Thanks to this government we started the JF17 production today while we could have started it in 2007... This government was not willing to finance it so PAF got soft loans from China... Do we have to talk more?



Pakistan media and famous defence analyst dare not to discuss this fact.
I expect to see the picture of Balawal Bhutto painted on first JF-17.

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## qsaark

Munir said:


> Meanbird.... *Thanks to this government* we started the JF17 production today while we could have started it in 2007... *This government was not willing to finance it* so PAF got soft loans from China... Do we have to talk more?





BATMAN said:


> Pakistan media and famous defence analyst dare not to discuss this fact.


A reference for these allegation will be highly apperciated.


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## mean_bird

Munir said:


> Meanbird.... Thanks to this government we started the JF17 production today while we could have started it in 2007... This government was not willing to finance it so PAF got soft loans from China... Do we have to talk more?



Yeah, but we had lots of time before this govt. to finalize what avionics we wanted. Or perhaps we were waiting to get the latest since avionics advance quite rapidly and China has been growing well in this aspect. 



qsaark said:


> A reference for these allegation will be highly apperciated.



I believe Munir is referring to the speech by ACM posted in the JF-17 thread in which he says the program was affected twice - first in 2001 which was solved by the efforts of Mushaf Ali Mir and secondly in the year 2007-8, when PAF did not have funding to start the project and had to work and get a loan from China. 

Its obvious they aren't getting it from the govt. that is why they are seeking the loan from China. They are supposed to have money according to the AFDP but they are looking for loan, why?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

mean_bird said:


> All talk goes back to "supposed" UAE Mirages on sale but UAE has yet to buy the Rafale



these crazy Emiratee walas. They have Block 60 F16Es ---the only country in the world to have them.

Why do they need Rafales too?

Do you think it would be wise for us to purchase Mirage-2000s considering that indians already have them and are experienced with them?

Is there a ROSE-type upgrade for the 2000s? 

Sooner or later we will have to retire the Mirage-IIIs (except maybe some of the upgraded ones) because their air-frames are getting quite worn out.





> best thing is get EU components in JF-17 and get it up in the airs ASAP. What I would be complaining about is not the F-16 but sanctions have been off since 2002-3. Why haven't we finalized the EU avioncs for JF-17 yet?




I absolutely 1000% agree with you on this.


If indians don't opt for Mig-35 (or any Russian aircraft) I think Moscow will immediately provide support to Pakistan to provide radar/avionics/weapons package for JF-17

I know that russian mentality. They love the cash. If the indians let them down, they will turn to Pakistan (even though we arent exactly well-endowed financially at the moment)


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## fatman17

EUROPE 
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2009 

Jane's Defence Weekly 

*Turkey's TAI wins mid-life upgrade contract for Pakistan's F-16s*

Jon Grevatt Jane's Asia-Pacific Industry Reporter - Bangkok

*Turkey's Tusas Aerospace Industries (TAI) signed a contract with the Pakistan Ministry of Defence on 29 June to carry out the mid-life upgrade of 42 Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16 aircraft, the company has announced.* 

*A statement said work under the deal, which is valued at around USD75 million, would start in October 2010 and take 46 months to complete. *

The contract is a follow-on from a memorandum of understanding signed in late 2006 at the IDEAS Defence Exhibition in Karachi.

*Jane's reported at the time that the deal, which will upgrade Block 15 aircraft to Block 40 standard,* would see a small number of F-16s upgraded at TAI facilities in Turkey while the remaining aircraft would be upgraded in Pakistan. 

*The work is seen by both countries as part of increasing efforts to increase defence industry collaboration. This has seen the two countries agree to co-operate in the research and development of a broad range of defence platforms, including medium-altitude long-endurance unmanned aerial vehicles.*


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## Myth_buster_1

I am very disappointed at PAF... 
46 MLU in 6-7 years since negotiation? and that to block 40 standard? what happened to APG-68 V9, ALQ-213, Sinper pods?? i thought they were pretty much part of the deal which would bring our f-sola to bock 50 standard? but here we are stuck with old garbage.. I am sorry to say but i think the transition of making PAK military a puppet police force is under way and soon we will be nothing but Egyptian type controlled military...
i am getting soooooooooooooo.. disappointed at PAF.. 
why?
i have to admit, that PAF acquisition and timing sucks big time! 

and no.. i am not going to be a fanboy and say... hey PAF should have bought 80 EF-2000, 20 Rafale etc..


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## FulcrumD

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> these crazy Emiratee walas. They have Block 60 F16Es ---the only country in the world to have them.
> 
> Why do they need Rafales too?
> 
> Do you think it would be wise for us to purchase Mirage-2000s considering that indians already have them and are experienced with them?
> 
> Is there a ROSE-type upgrade for the 2000s?
> 
> Sooner or later we will have to retire the Mirage-IIIs (except maybe some of the upgraded ones) because their air-frames are getting quite worn out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I absolutely 1000% agree with you on this.
> 
> 
> If indians don't opt for Mig-35 (or any Russian aircraft) I think Moscow will immediately provide support to Pakistan to provide radar/avionics/weapons package for JF-17
> 
> I know that russian mentality. They love the cash. If the indians let them down, they will turn to Pakistan (even though we arent exactly well-endowed financially at the moment)



What a logic!why would Russia do so?as per the list of contracts they still are no.1 suppliers to India,IAF & HAL are already under contract to co-develop the PAK FA,this contract itself will fetch Russia more than 8$Billion plus all the other goodies we already buy from them.Pakistan is in no way a replacement to India and Russia in no way can annoy India when it comes to defence deals,the results are renegotiations and guaranty for Gorshkov delivery,before the time completion of Krivak IV,Brahmos,Customisation offer for 6 Amur class Subs ,the list goes on and on.


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## Sunny4pak

I think Glower u r rite brother, its too much time and after so much time these birds will be upgraded to block 40................ 
Come On PAF


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## Munir

Growler said:


> I am very disappointed at PAF...
> 46 MLU in 6-7 years since negotiation? and that to block 40 standard? what happened to APG-68 V9, ALQ-213, Sinper pods?? i thought they were pretty much part of the deal which would bring our f-sola to bock 50 standard? but here we are stuck with old garbage.. I am sorry to say but i think the transition of making PAK military a puppet police force is under way and soon we will be nothing but Egyptian type controlled military...
> i am getting soooooooooooooo.. disappointed at PAF..
> why?
> i have to admit, that PAF acquisition and timing sucks big time!
> 
> and no.. i am not going to be a fanboy and say... hey PAF should have bought 80 EF-2000, 20 Rafale etc..



I think you need to see FC20 as the real target and mlu just as quantity and diversity... Pak has shifted its pro US policiy.


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## Tempest II

Munir said:


> I think you need to see FC20 as the real target and mlu just as quantity and diversity... Pak has shifted its pro US policiy.



I agree with you. If you consider that the F-16 are going to be introduced until 2014. FC-20 will start AFTER 2014. Logically, assuming PAF is upgrading, FC-20 will be to a highier standard/have more capability. Consider also that the F-16 is well past its prime (i.e. room for expansion and uopgrades) and the FC-20 is VERY YOUNG INDEED - still lots of room for improvement. Imagine where the JF-17 was 5 year ago (2004) ... ... and where it is now? There has been lots of capability improvement that has come to light. Assume the same for FC-20.


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## sancho

Growler said:


> I am very disappointed at PAF...
> 46 MLU in 6-7 years since negotiation? and that to block 40 standard? what happened to APG-68 V9, ALQ-213, Sinper pods?? i thought they were pretty much part of the deal which would bring our f-sola to bock 50 standard? but here we are stuck with old garbage..


What features will PAF F16 Block 40 have then?
What about F100-PW-229, AN/APG-68 (V9) radar, CFT and JHMCS helmet? 
These features come with block 50/52, can they be added to block 40 too?


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## Manticore

paf f-16 mlu specifications

3 qoutes by meanbird in different threads



mean_bird said:


> Actually, a unique feature of PAF is that almost everything it gets is customized. Even when we got the blk 15 F-16s in the 80s, they were customized and were slightly different from the standard blk 15 that were sold to other countries.
> 
> Even now, the MLU PAF F-16s are getting are customized rather than standard MLU-3 or MLU-4.
> 
> Let me try to explain
> 
> *MLU-3 in made up of the following.*
> 
> Automatic Target Hand-off System (ATHS)
> Integration of anti radiation missile capability
> Integration of target designator system
> Further implementation of the Digital Terrain System
> Integration of the Link-16 system
> Integration of capability for GPS controlled weapons (GBU30/32)
> Introduction of Helmet Mounted/Cueing Sight
> Introduction of NVG compatible helmets
> 
> Where as the MLU 4 Tape has the following features which PAF is not aquiring because of financial crunch,
> 
> *M4 tape contains in addition to above:*
> 
> Introduction of advanced short-range missile, as a replacement for the current Sidewinder (AIM-9X, IRIS-T)
> Integration of advanced Link-16 functions
> Integration of SNIPER targeting pods
> 
> 
> *Here's what PAF is getting: *
> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B *Mid-Life Update (MLU)modification* and *Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement* kits consisting of:
> 
> APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or APG-66(V)2 radar;
> Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems;
> AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
> AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
> Have Quick I/II Radios;
> Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals;
> 
> SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
> Reconnaissance pod capability;
> 
> Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units;
> MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
> 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency
> Memory (DRFM) or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
> 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
> 1 Unit Level Trainer; and
> 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.
> 
> 
> So you can see that everything there is just a customized upgrade rather then a MLU-3 or MLU-4. The only thing missing is integration of AIM-9X sidewinders(5th gen) because we are getting the AIM-9M sidewinders (the latest ones before the 5th gen).
> 
> Hope that explains it...so it is blk 50 standard
> 
> 
> Here's a link to exactly what PAF is getting
> http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2006/Pakistan_06-10.pdf







> Falcon Star upgrade for the airframe life





> PAF F-16s will be brought up to blk 52 standard minus 3 things
> 
> 1. there are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time;
> 2. there are no engine improvements; and,
> 3. there are no improvements to payload capacity
> 
> It has other things that come with blk 52 like APG-68v9 radar, JHMCS, JDAM, AGM-84 Harpoon capability, etc








perhaps the upgradation is somewhat inbetween the 2 blks, and paf wisely is labelling it as blk40 +some added tweaks, so as to get more money approved for chinese jets?


The rest will be upgraded by TUSAS in Pakistan Sarghoda or Kamra... so it would be difficult for india to keep track of our operational numbers?

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## mean_bird

Growler said:


> I am very disappointed at PAF...
> 46 MLU in 6-7 years since negotiation? and that to block 40 standard? what happened to APG-68 V9, ALQ-213, Sinper pods?? i thought they were pretty much part of the deal which would bring our f-sola to bock 50 standard? but here we are stuck with old garbage.. I am sorry to say but i think the transition of making PAK military a puppet police force is under way and soon we will be nothing but Egyptian type controlled military...
> i am getting soooooooooooooo.. disappointed at PAF..
> why?
> i have to admit, that PAF acquisition and timing sucks big time!
> 
> and no.. i am not going to be a fanboy and say... hey PAF should have bought 80 EF-2000, 20 Rafale etc..



While I do not intend to defend the action of PAF. They are just another organization in pakistan and like any other organization they too have some corruption and its officers aren't aliens but fellow countrymen.

Before putting the whole blame on PAF, however, it would be wiser to analyze the situation. What are people complaining? that Pakistan had the sanctions lifted and hence PAF should have immediately bought all the stuff and got the MLU ASAP. 

Let me bring some other issues. 

- When did the US approve of the MLU sales? 
- How are we going to finance the purchase?
- How are we going to do the upgradation?

Now 'if ' US approved the sales on 9/12, 2001, AND we have lots of money to pay, AND companies capable of doing the upgradation are idle and waiting for us, THEN we can rightly complain that all the delay is due to PAF. That however is not the case.

- US only approved the sales only in 2006.

- The money for the MLU is coming from FMF so US congress also has to approve that.

- Both LM and TAI aren't sitting idle but working on different other projects. 

As of *Sept. 7, 2008*, US congress had yet to approve using FMF for F-16 upgradation and money from the national fund is only available post 2009. Is it the fault of PAF? NO. Its the fault of govt. to provide PAF money to carry out the MLU. If PAF had used its money, then we would have had to either cut down on Erieye, or postpone JF-17. Would those that are crying have loved that instead? Or the function of our Foreign ministry to say, we cannot gurantee good relations with US so even if you have to through away the F-16s, do not do any deal with US. 

Frankly, if you want to get planes from US using US money, the timeline is not in your hands. Either get some cash and an influential govt. or don't complain about delays and being puppets. 

Do you still think PAF MLU program sucks?



Sunny4pak said:


> I think Glower u r rite brother, its too much time and after so much time these birds will be upgraded to block 40................
> Come On PAF



I have explicitly detailed the exact configuration of PAF MLU in the post quoted by AB. That data is far more reliable than anything from Jane's so I don't care what Jane's write.


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## blain2

Growler said:


> I am very disappointed at PAF...
> 46 MLU in 6-7 years since negotiation? and that to block 40 standard? what happened to APG-68 V9, ALQ-213, Sinper pods?? i thought they were pretty much part of the deal which would bring our f-sola to bock 50 standard? but here we are stuck with old garbage.. I am sorry to say but i think the transition of making PAK military a puppet police force is under way and soon we will be nothing but Egyptian type controlled military...
> i am getting soooooooooooooo.. disappointed at PAF..
> why?
> i have to admit, that PAF acquisition and timing sucks big time!
> 
> and no.. i am not going to be a fanboy and say... hey PAF should have bought 80 EF-2000, 20 Rafale etc..



Janes is wrong, again!!!

All PAF-16s will be upgraded to blk-52 avionics suite. Trust me on this. The MLU planned for the PAF is unlike any others thus far executed.


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## Myth_buster_1

mean_bird said:


> .
> 
> 
> Let me bring some other issues.
> 
> - When did the US approve of the MLU sales?
> - How are we going to finance the purchase?
> - How are we going to do the upgradation?
> 
> Now 'if ' US approved the sales on 9/12, 2001, AND we have lots of money to pay, AND companies capable of doing the upgradation are idle and waiting for us, THEN we can rightly complain that all the delay is due to PAF. That however is not the case.



First of all.. i want to clear my stance... i am still a big time pro-F-16 MLU & Block 52+ deal... but, is it worth it? i mean PAF has relied on F-16 so much that flexibilities of choosing and inducting other alternatives is beyond their reach.. PAF even new these delays and hurdles were coming at them.. and again, our F-16s twice faced potential air war threats where they were not even capable of BVR AA engagements.. and what if few months ago those MKIs for the sake of destroying terrorists camps in Lahore conducted BVR air to ground engagements then tell me which air craft in PAF would have been capable of preventing this? lets just suppose they do that.. 
and btw, the funds and aid we get from america is because we earn it! 



> Do you still think PAF MLU program sucks?



not really... but certainly the timing does..


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## Munir

blain2 said:


> Janes is wrong, again!!!
> 
> All PAF-16s will be upgraded to blk-52 avionics suite. Trust me on this. The MLU planned for the PAF is unlike any others thus far executed.



Blain, you are wrong on your last remark. There are other mlu's that are a bit higher then our MLU.. It is not open info to all.


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## blain2

Munir said:


> Blain, you are wrong on your last remark. There are other mlu's that are a bit higher then our MLU.. It is not open info to all.



I hope you are not talking about specs here. I am talking about delivered MLU aircraft. Thus far none of the MLUs that have gone through the upgrades have what PAF aircraft will.


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## blain2

Growler said:


> not really... but certainly the timing does..



Growler almost 5 month for an aircraft is the avg time on the MLU. Not sure how that can be shortened? Maybe the issue is why the delay?, well that had to do with the PAF not wanting to spend own money on the upgrades and trying to use FMS funding through the US aid for it.


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## pshamim

I will blame the red tape. PAF has to take the blame too.

What I understand that MLUs are going to be done in batches. We may see some completed much earlier while the last one being completed down the road.

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## BATMAN

Any news about the 4 F-16 delivered to US for MLU?
When are those comming home?
As we know intiall plans were that first two were scheduled to be completed in mid 2010.


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## pshamim

BATMAN said:


> Any news about the 4 F-16 delivered to US for MLU?
> When are those comming home?
> As we know intiall plans were that first two were scheduled to be delivered in mid 2010.



You are correct. We should begin to see them returning next year.

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## Interceptor

*Tusas Inks Deal To Modernize Pakistan F-16 Jets - IHA*



("Tusas, Airbus Ink Deal To Modernize Pakistan F-16 Jets - IHA," at 1145 GMT, misstated that Airbus and Tusas had signed a deal to modernize Pakistan's F-16 aircraft in the headline and the first paragraph.

ISTANBUL -(Dow Jones)- Turkish company Turk Havacilik ve Uzay Sanayii, or Tusas, has signed a deal with Pakistan's Defence Production Ministry to modernize 42 of Pakistan's F-16 aircrafts, Tusas said Monday, the Ihlas News Agency, or IHA, reported.

In statement, Tusas said the project for the modernization of F-16 aircrafts will cost around $75 million and the project will start in October 2010. 

Agency Web sites: www.iha.com.tr; IHLAS News Distribution System

(END) Dow Jones Newswires
06-29-09 0808ET
Copyright (c) 2009 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.


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## Interceptor

(gen) Turkish Aviation Company Signs Pakistani War Plane Modernization Deal 

ANKARA (A.A) - 29.06.2009 - A Turkish aviation company has signed a deal to modernize part of Pakistan's war planes. 
Turkish Aviation and Space Industry (TUSAS) sealed the 75-millon USD project in Rawalpindi on Monday, TUSAS said in a statement. 

The project is scheduled to begin in October 2010 and it covers the modernization of forty-two F-16 fighter jets within a period of 46 months. (&#304;MB-CE)

(gen) Turkish Aviation Company Signs Pakistani War Plane Modernization Deal - Turk.Net


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## Interceptor

Shouldn't the F-16 modernization had taken place already or was there delay? Hadn't we shipped a batch of F-16 to Turkey?


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## pshamim

If the news is correct then it is pathetic. They should had never taken so much time. 
I think some F-16 were out to US. Do not know if they have already been sent to Turkey. But then why if the project will start in 2010.

With the changing times, PAF should grab the opportunities when they present themselves.

I am really disappointed with PAF mimicing the Indian Government operates.

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## Arsalan

pshamim said:


> If the news is correct then it is pathetic. They should had never taken so much time.
> I think some F-16 were out to US. Do not know if they have already been sent to Turkey. But then why if the project will start in 2010.
> 
> With the changing times, PAF should grab the opportunities when they present themselves.
> 
> I am really disappointed with PAF mimicing the Indian Government operates.




you are right sir! two of our F16 are in US undergoing MLU. the turkish upgradation pack is a different thing and will be carried along with the MLU, both these programmes deal in different objects so if te MLU stay on track then the MLU and STAR upgraded F16 along with few block 52 if possible will become a great force!

the US mlu that you have pointed to deal in avionics and weapon load upgrades and the STAR upgrade is to seal with air frame!
though it may be taht few of the planes will take MLU in turkey after we get the MLU kits from US but still the STAR upgrade will be a different programme. so to conclude if all that goes according to plan there is nothing wrong with the timings rather it will be great!

regards!


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## SBD-3

this thing is goonna make PAF valnurable to IAF will falcons coming short at duty and getting ready late. I mean C'mon 2014 is ages from now and we will have FC-20 by then MLUed F-16s should be in duty 2011 max ;-(


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> this thing is goonna make PAF valnurable to IAF will falcons coming short at duty and getting ready late. I mean C'mon 2014 is ages from now and we will have FC-20 by then MLUed F-16s should be in duty 2011 max ;-(



my brother, the MLU and turkish upgrades are different things, the MLU may well be done in about 2011 and then the turkish upgrades will take more time as they will be started some where in 2013. 
i have again and again pointed that the MLU and STAR upgrades are different thing, i dont know why you people are getting it. if you thing they are the same then let me know. thw MLU is the mid life upgrade offered by the US and STAR upgrades are the ones to be done by turkey, the MLU will be done way befor the STAR upgrades. 

what do you think of this?

i hope all you respected members wont take it as an offense. all i want to say is that please do not mix the MLU with STAR up[grades, mean_bird have posted some very usefull posts regarding the topic and i suggest you better have a look at them as it will help you out!

i hope you understand that i am saying all this for your information only!

regards!

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## Arsalan

the engine upgrade comes in the US programme of MLU and not the turkish STAR upgrade programme, the star upgrade will include incerased serviceability of air frame along with modrenization of some components of avionics while the US MLU will give engine upgrade, sniper pod, AIM120 firing ability and avionics upgrade to carry out these equipment!
i hope this makes the difference between the US offered MLU and turkish offered STAR upgrade programme a bit clear! for further detail go through the post of mean-bird in this thread, that will be helpfull! (sorry but i could not manage to repeat those post for your viewing, do check them for youself)

regards!


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## SBD-3

ummmmmmmmm ok thanx


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## fatman17

the MLU in the US would have taken even longer - now the turks are not sitting idle waiting for our F-16s to arrive for the MLU - they are also upgrading 165 turkish AF F-16s at the same time.

so not a bad deal overall - remember PAF has to schedule the MLU in such a manner that is dosnt de-grade its operational prepardness!

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> the MLU in the US would have taken even longer - now the turks are not sitting idle waiting for our F-16s to arrive for the MLU - they are also upgrading 165 turkish AF F-16s at the same time.
> 
> so not a bad deal overall - remember PAF has to schedule the MLU in such a manner that is dosnt de-grade its operational prepardness!



yesindeed sir! the MLU if went according to plan will be completed by some where in 2011-2012 and by that time the turkish upgrades will be on there way!
so, again, IF every thing go according to plan the fleet of our F16 will turn into a leathal force with ability to serve us for another 7 to 10 years!

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> yesindeed sir! the MLU if went according to plan will be completed by some where in 2011-2012 and by that time the turkish upgrades will be on there way!
> so, again, IF every thing go according to plan the fleet of our F16 will turn into a leathal force with ability to serve us for another *7 to 10 years!*
> regards!



7 to 10 years? who will replace them JXX?


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> 7 to 10 years? who will replace them JXX?



perhaps more J10 will come in to play, the time frame may increas on base of maturity and evolution of J10 programme!!
well it is just my view poinmt and anyone may disagree with this!

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> perhaps more J10 will come in to play, the time frame may increas on base of maturity and evolution of J10 programme!!
> well it is just my view poinmt and anyone may disagree with this!
> 
> regards!



J-10s will be there alongwith falcons i expect either J-11s or the roumered J-10 J-11 hybrid entreing PAF service


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> J-10s will be there alongwith falcons i expect either J-11s or the roumered J-10 J-11 hybrid entreing PAF service



it dont seems to be happening as PAF wont be going for twin engine planes in the near future and afterwards we may have the requirment to shift towards 4.5 and enev may be 5 generation planes!

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> it dont seems to be happening as PAF wont be going for twin engine planes in the near future and afterwards we may have the requirment to shift towards 4.5 and enev may be 5 generation planes!
> 
> regards!



I mean why we are assuming that we will stick to our theory of single engine ACs its like limiting our combat potential.As PAF is a reactive force i exepect a change if IAF goes for MCRA big time


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## araz

http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/olc/docs/testWieringa080916.pdf

Some updated info provided by *Mr Jawad of Pakdef.info forum*. Might give viewers an idea odf the current situation with regards to F16s
Araz

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## SBD-3

> there are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time; there are no engine improvements; and, there are no improvements to payload capacity.


will it be covered with STAR upgrade????


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## mean_bird

araz said:


> http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/olc/docs/testWieringa080916.pdf
> 
> Some updated info provided by *Mr Jawad of Pakdef.info forum*. Might give viewers an idea odf the current situation with regards to F16s
> Araz



With due respect, that is 9 months old news already reported and discussed on this thread.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/25740-news-pakistans-f16-block-50-52-a.html


I have a question: Why did we buy 35 MLU kits and not for all of them? are we planning to retire a few of the F-16s that, perhaps, are not capable of undergoing STAR upgrade?

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## Arsalan

mean_bird said:


> I have a question: Why did we buy 35 MLU kits and not for all of them? are we planning to retire a few of the F-16s that, perhaps, are not capable of undergoing STAR upgrade?



we be we have to eat one or two for spar parts! cant this be a possibility! after all they are a very old aircraft now and will be usefull only after spendings made on it in form of MLU and the STAR upgrad so may be we want to spare one or two for the reason of spare parts!

what do you think!

regards!


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## blain2

araz said:


> http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/olc/docs/testWieringa080916.pdf
> 
> Some updated info provided by *Mr Jawad of Pakdef.info forum*. Might give viewers an idea odf the current situation with regards to F16s
> Araz



Araz sahib,

Thanks for posting. I believe this information has been around for quite a few months and all of the our current estimates on the F-16 delivery timetable are based on this document.

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## blain2

arsalanaslam123 said:


> my brother, the MLU and turkish upgrades are different things, the MLU may well be done in about 2011 and then the turkish upgrades will take more time as they will be started some where in 2013.
> i have again and again pointed that the MLU and STAR upgrades are different thing, i dont know why you people are getting it. if you thing they are the same then let me know. thw MLU is the mid life upgrade offered by the US and STAR upgrades are the ones to be done by turkey, the MLU will be done way befor the STAR upgrades.
> 
> what do you think of this?
> 
> i hope all you respected members wont take it as an offense. all i want to say is that please do not mix the MLU with STAR up[grades, mean_bird have posted some very usefull posts regarding the topic and i suggest you better have a look at them as it will help you out!
> 
> i hope you understand that i am saying all this for your information only!
> 
> regards!



Arsalan,

Actually the Turkish upgrade will do everything for the PAF. FalconSTAR is a structural integrity upgrade ideally done before the MLU. However when the aircraft is being put under the MLU, then they do the structural upgrades to the aircraft before upgrading the avionics of the aircraft.

So when Pakistan receives the F-16s from the Turkey, they will have been through FalconSTAR and the MLU. Both of the projects are very detailed and the aircraft will not be put through two different efforts (MLU and FalconSTAR). It will be done under one roof by the Turks. The initial aircraft that PAF had sent to the US were essentially aircraft to undergo feasibility study on what it would take those aircraft to go through the MLU. As I have said earlier as well, all MLUs are different owing to the integration of different types radars, weapons and ECM suites along with hundred other things. 

Once the feasibility study is done, then specific to the MLU, kits/components are provided to the integrator (who in this case will be the Turks).

Essentially we are talking about a new version of Engineering Change Proposal (ECP) for the Pakistani F-16s. The current version of this ECP for structural integrity is FalconSTAR. In the past a similar kind of structural upgrade was known as PACER SLIP. Rest assured this work is done prior to the MLU and in the case of PAF F-16s, the Turks will handle both the structural and the avionics/weapons upgrade.

The only time the FalconUP has happened after the MLU has been for the EPAF (European Participating AFs) in the F-16 MLU program. They felt that their aircraft needed structural refit after flying them with the MLU for a while. The FalconSTAR gave them 8K hrs life on the airframes. So in their case this was a refit. In the case of our F-16s, all this work will be done altogether.

Also the last thing I wanted to mention was that our Turkish friends have done all of the above work for our Jordanians friends (MLU, FalconSTAR etc.).

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## blain2

hasnain0099 said:


> will it be covered with STAR upgrade????



No the purpose of the MLU is upgrade of avionics and weapons capability. It has nothing to do with propulsion and PAF will continue to fly their MLU F-16s on the existing engines which will be overhauled.


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## ironman

"_On 28 June 2006, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification kits as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $1.3 billion_"
http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36...stan_06-10.pdf

According to this document the entire project value quoted $1.3 billion and current signed is only $75 million. So anybody can confirm what are missing from the proposed one. I really doubt about the AN/APG-68(V)9 radar, APG-68(V) itself costs $1.2 million( Link: Recent Contracts).


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## blain2

The $75 million is the cost of the contract for the Turks to carry out integration/MLU work. The $1.3 billion is the cost of all the upgrade kits. PAF have yet to exercise the full $1.3 billion as currently only less than 50 aircraft will undergo MLU/FalconSTAR upgrades.

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## MZUBAIR

I have only one question?

When weill Pakistan get 18 F-16 Block 52, from USA.
There is no news abt the delivery progress, so it might be a problem for Pakistan.


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## mean_bird

arsalanaslam123 said:


> we be we have to eat one or two for spar parts! cant this be a possibility! after all they are a very old aircraft now and will be usefull only after spendings made on it in form of MLU and the STAR upgrad so may be we want to spare one or two for the reason of spare parts!
> 
> what do you think!
> 
> regards!




Well the 32 planes are after the crashes and cannibalization. My guess is that some of them are too old to undergo STAR upgrade. Remember that the STAR upgrade is a structural upgrade and not complete rebuilding of a new plane. 

When a plane is designed for 4K hrs life, some of the components expiry time is 4k hrs while some can go longer. In a Structural upgrade, you examine each part to see how much longer it can be used for and replace the worn out ones. But for some planes, the sheer number of parts that would need replacement would be too much to economically carry out a structural upgrade. If you detect faults and cracks in airframe that cannot be easily replaced/repaired, your plane will not undergo the upgrade. 

I think some of our existing F-16s are simply too old to undergo that. 



MZUBAIR said:


> I have only one question?
> 
> When weill Pakistan get 18 F-16 Block 52, from USA.
> There is no news abt the delivery progress, so it might be a problem for Pakistan.



You did not read the pdf file nor the link I provided on the previous page, did you?

In short, they will be rolled out starting in batches of 4 from june 2010 onwards till 2011. Actual delivery dates may vary from those listed by couple of months accounting for flight testing and logistics of transporting them.


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## Arsalan

mean_bird said:


> Well the 32 planes are after the crashes and cannibalization. My guess is that some of them are too old to undergo STAR upgrade. Remember that the STAR upgrade is a structural upgrade and not complete rebuilding of a new plane.
> 
> When a plane is designed for 4K hrs life, some of the components expiry time is 4k hrs while some can go longer. In a Structural upgrade, you examine each part to see how much longer it can be used for and replace the worn out ones. But for some planes, the sheer number of parts that would need replacement would be too much to economically carry out a structural upgrade. If you detect faults and cracks in airframe that cannot be easily replaced/repaired, your plane will not undergo the upgrade.
> 
> I think some of our existing F-16s are simply too old to undergo that.



yes this may well be the case, it is a possibility!! i know that 32 is the number of planes thatwe have after crashes and all that but my guess was that perhaps we want to spare one or two more for this cannibalization,, any how it was just a guess and both case are possible, at the moment the thing which is more important is that these MKU are done with in the time frame and some where in 2011 so that the STAR upgrades can be started and we get a plane thatcan fly high for us for a few more years! in the present conditions sadly our F16 were just sitting duck for any of our enemies plane!

regards!


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## Malik Usman

Hi All !

I have heard that the US.. F-22 Raptor has adopted new technology recently that it can jam the electronics system of any other fighters even F-16's and control over that fighter...
How much is reality in this......If yes then are Pakistan's F-16 are under threat.


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## mean_bird

Malik Usman said:


> Hi All !
> 
> I have heard that the US.. F-22 Raptor has adopted new technology recently that it can jam the electronics system of any other fighters even F-16's and control over that fighter...
> How much is reality in this......If yes then are Pakistan's F-16 are under threat.





Even if it cannot jam the electronics...against the F-22 everyone else is under threat

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## blain2

mean_bird said:


> Well the 32 planes are after the crashes and cannibalization. My guess is that some of them are too old to undergo STAR upgrade. Remember that the STAR upgrade is a structural upgrade and not complete rebuilding of a new plane.
> 
> When a plane is designed for 4K hrs life, some of the components expiry time is 4k hrs while some can go longer. In a Structural upgrade, you examine each part to see how much longer it can be used for and replace the worn out ones. But for some planes, the sheer number of parts that would need replacement would be too much to economically carry out a structural upgrade. If you detect faults and cracks in airframe that cannot be easily replaced/repaired, your plane will not undergo the upgrade.
> 
> I think some of our existing F-16s are simply too old to undergo that.
> 
> 
> 
> You did not read the pdf file nor the link I provided on the previous page, did you?
> 
> In short, they will be rolled out starting in batches of 4 from june 2010 onwards till 2011. Actual delivery dates may vary from those listed by couple of months accounting for flight testing and logistics of transporting them.



PAF will recover all of the original 32 aircraft after the MLU/FalconSTAR upgrades.

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## Arsalan

blain2 said:


> PAF will recover all of the original 32 aircraft after the MLU/FalconSTAR upgrades.




ok if this is the case then all the situation get cleared. mean_bird suggested that we are buying 35 kit so are we planneing to retire some of F16, it is intresting that we have a 32 plans to get MLU so this news sort it out!

thankyou sir!
regards!


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## mean_bird

We have 32 +14 = 46 F-16s with us and we are buying 35 MLU kits.

Although the news suggests that more MLU kits could be bought, but I haven't heard anything of it yet.


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## jalip

4 of them are in US does their kits includes in 35 ?


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## jalip

Malik Usman said:


> Hi All !
> 
> I have heard that the US.. F-22 Raptor has adopted new technology recently that it can jam the electronics system of any other fighters even F-16's and control over that fighter...
> How much is reality in this......If yes then are Pakistan's F-16 are under threat.



why u wana fight with F 22


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## SBD-3

ya I also heard about it on another forum looks like sort of a jamming pod development 
any one with updates on that?


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## Arsalan

we wont ever get any such thing so i think it is not wise to discuss it!

infact the truth is that i feel sad when ilisten about such thngs that are flying all around us but are well out of our reach,,, thats relly depressing!!!   

regards!


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## blain2

mean_bird said:


> We have 32 +14 = 46 F-16s with us and we are buying 35 MLU kits.
> 
> Although the news suggests that more MLU kits could be bought, but I haven't heard anything of it yet.



MB,

Not a single PAF F-16 will be spared.  They will all receive MLUs. PAF had an option of purchasing over 50 MLU kits depending on the availability of spare F-16s. All of the ones that we fly currently will go through the upgrades.

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## Myth_buster_1

blain2 said:


> MB,
> 
> Not a single PAF F-16 will be spared.  They will all receive MLUs. PAF had an option of purchasing over 50 MLU kits depending on the availability of spare F-16s. All of the ones that we fly currently will go through the upgrades.



yes not to forget.. PAF is only upgrading 2 newly arrived block 15 out of 14.... this suggests perhaps PAF is looking forward to upgrade these with MLU M4 or M5 once the M3 program is done.. but again.... very sad planning... 2014 is the time frame. but when will the rest receive MLU? 2014-15?


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## fatman17

60 MLU kits are available, so for PAF excercised their option on 40+ kits. others will be purchased when the balance a/c from the original 28 embargoed a/c are delivered. remember the USN is currently using these 14 a/c for aggressor trg and have refused to release - alternately the US has offered 14 a/c from EDA stocks (ex-ANG blk 30/40)

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> 60 MLU kits are available, so for PAF excercised their option on 40+ kits. others will be purchased when the balance a/c from the original 28 embargoed a/c are delivered. remember the USN is currently using these 14 a/c for aggressor trg and have refused to release - alternately the US has offered 14 a/c from EDA stocks (ex-ANG blk 30/40)




and sir do you think that this is an offer for good! i mean if they are blk30 then this must be a better option for PAF. can you kindly further explain this matter in reagrd to your personal view point, i mean how do you take this offer?

regards!


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## fatman17

arsalanaslam123 said:


> and sir do you think that this is an offer for good! i mean if they are blk30 then this must be a better option for PAF. can you kindly further explain this matter in reagrd to your personal view point, i mean how do you take this offer?
> 
> regards!



its either these or newer blk 52s! the former being more cost-effective!


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> its either these or newer blk 52s! the former being more cost-effective!



no no, actually i was asking that as you stated that we may be getting blk30 insted of the blk 15 that we have paid for so isnt it a better option or are there some restrictions in upgrades of blk30. for me getting blk 30 instead of the blk15 will be beneficial for us! that is the point i seek your kind comments on!

regards!


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## fatman17

arsalanaslam123 said:


> no no, actually i was asking that as you stated that we may be getting blk30 insted of the blk 15 that we have paid for so isnt it a better option or are there some restrictions in upgrades of blk30. for me getting blk 30 instead of the blk15 will be beneficial for us! that is the point i seek your kind comments on!
> 
> regards!



i am not expert but except for blk 10, all other blk's can be upgraded to blk 52 std.


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> i am not expert but except for blk 10, all other blk's can be upgraded to blk 52 std.



So it means it will surely be a nice buy!


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## Myth_buster_1

fatman17 said:


> i am not expert but except for blk 10, all other blk's can be upgraded to blk 52 std.



oh sir g you are very wrong..

please check out dutch and Belgium block 15 new upgradtion program.... if you do read few things about MLU M5 and you will find out that block 52 is nothing front of it... i mean technically MLU M5 is not better but as good as block 52+... lets just leave the CFT, and new air frame for now..


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## MastanKhan

fatman17 said:


> 60 MLU kits are available, so for PAF excercised their option on 40+ kits. others will be purchased when the balance a/c from the original 28 embargoed a/c are delivered. remember the USN is currently using these 14 a/c for aggressor trg and have refused to release - alternately the US has offered 14 a/c from EDA stocks (ex-ANG blk 30/40)





Hi Fatman,

My understranding is that the u s wanted to release those planes---but the u s navy refused to.


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## fatman17

MastanKhan said:


> Hi Fatman,
> 
> My understranding is that the u s wanted to release those planes---but the u s navy refused to.



correct !

---------- Post added at 10:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 AM ----------




Growler said:


> oh sir g you are very wrong..
> 
> please check out dutch and Belgium block 15 new upgradtion program.... if you do read few things about MLU M5 and you will find out that block 52 is nothing front of it... i mean technically MLU M5 is not better but as good as block 52+... lets just leave the CFT, and new air frame for now..



what have i said wrong!


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## Myth_buster_1

fatman17 said:


> what have i said wrong!





fatman17 said:


> *i am not expert but except for blk 10*, all other blk's can be upgraded to blk 52 std.




block 10 and 50 are single seater while block 15 and 52 are twin.. no way can block 10 be any less capable after MLU M5.


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## fatman17

Growler said:


> block 10 and 50 are single seater while block 15 and 52 are twin.. no way can block 10 be any less capable after MLU M5.



30/32
40/42
50/52

are diffrentiated by engine type PW or GE!

A/B
C/D

are diffrentiated by single or twin seat!

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## Myth_buster_1

fatman17 said:


> 30/32
> 40/42
> 50/52
> 
> are diffrentiated by engine type PW or GE!
> 
> A/B
> C/D
> 
> are diffrentiated by single or twin seat!



sir g no offense you are one of our best member in pakdef but all i am trying to clear here is that block 10-15 MLU M3-4-5 are as good as any standard block 52 f-16s...

regards..


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## Manticore

fatman17 said:


> 30/32
> 40/42
> 50/52
> 
> are diffrentiated by engine type PW or GE!
> 
> A/B
> C/D
> 
> are diffrentiated by single or twin seat!



true sir ,


.


> Originally Posted by fatman17 View Post
> i am not expert but except for blk 10, all other blk's can be upgraded to blk 52 std.



During mlu, The air inlet structure of the Block 10 aircraft will be modified, due to the fact that the current inlet of Block 10 aircraft does not allow for the implementation of hard points to carry equipment such as the Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) pod.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article2.html


table showing even block5 entering the mlu programme ....

LTF aircraft for the MLU program
BAF F-16B Block 15AA 
RDAF	F-16A Block 5 
RNLAF	F-16A Block 10B	
RNoAF	F-16B Block 10B	
PoAF	F-16A Block 15P


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## Wingman

Quote:
Originally Posted by Growler View Post
oh sir g you are very wrong..

please check out dutch and Belgium block 15 new upgradtion program.... if you do read few things about MLU M5 and you will find out that block 52 is nothing front of it... i mean technically MLU M5 is not better but as good as block 52+... lets just leave the CFT, and new air frame for now..

what have i said wrong!(By fatman17)

LOLZ


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## fatman17

ANALYSIS 
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2009 

Jane's Defence Weekly 

*Used USAF F-16s provide cheap multirole option*

Older F-16 fighters slated for retirement by the USAF offer a desirable solution to cash-strapped governments and armed forces, as Jim Dorschner reports 

Recently announced plans by the US Air Force (USAF) to retire older F-16 Fighting Falcon multirole fighter aircraft will prove advantageous for several lower-tier air forces with long-standing requirements that are otherwise unlikely to be addressed in the face of today's tough economic conditions. 

The Combat Air Forces restructuring plan unveiled in early May by USAF Secretary Michael Donley calls for the retirement of 134 mostly Block 25 F-16s as part of a comprehensive plan to save some USD3.5 billion over the next five fiscal years. This money can then be redirected towards reducing current capability gaps - by expanding MQ-1 Predator and MQ-9 Reaper unmanned aerial vehicle capability and building the MC-12 Project Liberty manned intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance platform, for example. 

*Although more than 20 years old, many of the F-16C/Ds identified for retirement have plenty of life left in them, particularly if overhauled with modern sensors, communications and weapons. Countries destined to receive these 'new' fighters under generous terms from the US would need to be reliable allies. Potential recipients include Bulgaria, Colombia, Croatia, Indonesia, Iraq, Mexico, Pakistan, the Philippines, Romania and Tunisia.* 

Even before these latest retirements were announced, Romania and Bulgaria had already received offers of second-hand F-16s. The US offered Bulgaria eight refurbished Block 25 F-16C/Ds in December 2008 to meet a long-deferred fighter replacement requirement. In the case of Romania, the US Defense Security Co-operation Agency (DSCA) notified Congress in May 2008 of a proposed sale of 24 new F-16C/D Block 50/52 and 24 refurbished and upgraded F-16C/D Block 25 aircraft in a package worth some USD4.5 billion. 

However, with effects from the economic downturn steadily eroding Romanian defence spending prospects, eliminating the new-build Block 50s in favour of additional older jets may be the only way the country can achieve its stated target of 48 'new' multirole fighters. Even then, Romania may only be able to afford a total of 24 refurbished and upgraded Block 25s plus a smaller number of unaltered Block 25 airframes for training. Romania's current force of marginally effective MiG-21 Lancers is scheduled for withdrawal from service beginning in 2011: a date that cannot realistically be postponed. 

For both these countries, used F-16s would serve as an interim capability bridge until economic conditions improve sufficiently to permit the purchase of new fighters. In recent years both were targets of sales campaigns that variously featured the Saab Gripen, Dassault Rafael, Eurofighter Typhoon, Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet and of course new Lockheed Martin F-16s. 

Since neither is now likely to be able to afford such massive new defence expenditure, used Falcons may be the only viable option, although the Swedish Air Force is also likely to retire numbers of its older JAS 39A/B Gripens in the near future. 

Based on the package for Romania, retired USAF F-16s are likely to be offered at little or no purchase cost, but with the buyer picking up the tab for overhauls, training, delivery, system upgrades and the purchase of new systems such as radars and targeting pods, as well as weapons such as missiles and precision-guided munitions (PGMs). Depending on the extent of chosen upgrades, this could deliver highly capable multirole fighters with a service life of at least 10 years at a fraction of the cost of new models. There would also be a substantial price tag for support infrastructure such as shelters, workshops and stores. 

After the successful integration of JAS 39C/Ds into the air forces of Hungary and the Czech Republic earlier this decade, Croatia was widely expected to select the Gripen this year in a competition valued at approximately USD844 million for 12 new fighters to replace ageing MiG-21s. However, this was cancelled in March in the face of national economic pressures. Thus, any offer of used F-16s from the US with generous terms is likely to be well received. 

Elsewhere, Iraq is exploring the purchase of a number of new F-16s, but in light of falling oil revenues, could find upgraded older aircraft attractive and more rapidly obtainable. They would be valuable as advanced trainers for pilots transferring to new F-16s and, given Iraqi operational requirements and regional threats, could still perform combat missions as required. 

*Similarly, Pakistan needs upgraded older F-16C/Ds to replace or supplement even older A/B models. These would serve as a bridge to delivery of new-build Falcons and new fighters under development in co-operation with China.*

Tunisia is another potential recipient, with a pressing need to replace 13 elderly F-5s but little cash to draw on. 

In Latin America, Mexico has a long-standing requirement to replace a declining fleet of 1970s-vintage F-5s with newer, more capable fighters. While these would primarily perform air defence and air policing missions, including the interception of drug-smuggling aircraft, upgraded F-16s would provide the Mexican Air Force with its first multirole precision attack capability. Upgraded F-16 Block 25s would undoubtedly be attractive to Colombia as well and would provide far greater capability than the current plan to upgrade existing IAI Kfirs. Any F-16 deal with Colombia faces intense scrutiny in the US Congress and would surely ignite regional concerns, particularly in neighbouring Venezuela. 

The Philippines is perhaps the country in most need of US assistance with rebuilding its more or less defunct fighter capability. Without substantial US help the Philippines is highly unlikely to ever be able to redress the situation, leaving this vast country in a strategic corner of Asia without a viable air defence or air policing capability, let alone the ability to conduct precision air strikes. Introduction of a small force of upgraded F-16s would immediately improve overall security. 

In February 2008,US Defense Secretary Robert Gates announced an offer of six new-build F-16 Block 50/52 Fighting Falcons for delivery to Indonesia from 2010 as part of a package expected to include the overhaul and upgrade of the country's existing F-16A/Bs. Instead, Indonesia opted for the phased introduction of a small force of Su-27 and Su-30 fighters from Russia at a cost of around USD550 million. Nonetheless, replacing the F-16A/Bs with multirole, upgraded Block 25s could be an attractive option. 

The F-16C/D Block 25 variants due for retirement were introduced into USAF service from 1984 and a total of 209 were delivered. They were the first F-16s with all-weather, beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile capability and featured the improved AN/APG-68 radar. The fleet was later upgraded to the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220E engine and gained a multirole capability. They are currently flown exclusively by the US Air National Guard and within the active duty Air Education and Training Command. 

Jim Dorschner is a JDW Correspondent, based in Washington, DC

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## Arsalan

yes sir they are indeed a good platform but the problem with Pak_US deal is that it never seems to be meeting the time frame and thus the only worry for me is that we might get these at the time when we will be inducting the FC20s and at that time they wont be worth the money we have invested for some eight years!
Blk52 are good for us only if we get them by 2011-2012 and this do not seems to be happening. although the latest reports are that they will be in PAF colors by 2012 but keeping in mind the previous US-Pal deals iseriously doubt it!

anyways that was a nice article!!

regards!


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## Stealth

GO GO GO!! PAF GO FOR ALL THESE F16zzz Seriously DEATHTOOL for IAF if we will get all of thm... and upgrade all of Fighters 

Formations F16s, J10Bs, JF17, Mirage WOO!


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## Arsalan

Stealth said:


> GO GO GO!! PAF GO FOR ALL THESE F16zzz Seriously DEATHTOOL for IAF if we will get all of thm... and upgrade all of Fighters
> 
> Formations F16s, J10Bs, JF17, Mirage WOO!



*wake up dude!!!*

that is all i want to comment dear  

regards!


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## hj786

ANTIBODY said:


> true sir , plus
> .
> During mlu, The air inlet structure of the Block 10 aircraft will be modified, due to the fact that the current inlet of Block 10 aircraft does not allow for the implementation of hard points to carry equipment such as the Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) pod.
> http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article2.html



Why are you guys talking about block 10? As far as I know, PAF's F-16s are the F-16A/B block 15 which have the inlet hardpoints. There is a picture somewhere of a PAF F-16 with the ATLIS laser designator pod on the starboard side inlet hardpoint.


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## Arsalan

hj786 said:


> Why are you guys talking about block 10? As far as I know, PAF's F-16s are the F-16A/B block 15 which have the inlet hardpoints. There is a picture somewhere of a PAF F-16 with the ATLIS laser designator pod on the starboard side inlet hardpoint.



yes what we have are the block 15 of F16! the discussion is about another issue! you may check a few posts and it will be cleared!

regards!

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## nightrider_saulat

*HOW FOOLISH OF US WE ARE STILL HOPING THAT NEW F-16 WILL MAKE THEIR WAY TO PAKISTAN(IT IS JUST AN HOPE.....BUT IN REALITY IT CAN'T HAPPEN SO THEN STOP DREAMING OF IT)

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND I WANT TO ASK ARE WE
RECEIVING NEW BVRMs,RADARS&ENGINES
FROM "TUSAS" COMPANY
IN TERMS OF "MLU UPGRADES"*


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## Manticore

hj786 said:


> Why are you guys talking about block 10? As far as I know, PAF's F-16s are the F-16A/B block 15 which have the inlet hardpoints. There is a picture somewhere of a PAF F-16 with the ATLIS laser designator pod on the starboard side inlet hardpoint.



basically i was replying to fatman , with a table showing even block5 entering the mlu programme


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## TOPGUN

nightrider_saulat said:


> *HOW FOOLISH OF US WE ARE STILL HOPING THAT NEW F-16 WILL MAKE THEIR WAY TO PAKISTAN(IT IS JUST AN HOPE.....BUT IN REALITY IT CAN'T HAPPEN SO THEN STOP DREAMING OF IT)
> 
> BUT ON THE OTHER HAND I WANT TO ASK ARE WE
> RECEIVING NEW BVRMs,RADARS&ENGINES
> FROM "TUSAS"
> IN TERMS OF "MLU UPGRADES"*



Hey dude why don't you try to be postive let the time tell if don't get them then damn we don't get them simple as that lets see wat happens lets not speak to quick !


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## jalip

nightrider_saulat said:


> *HOW FOOLISH OF US WE ARE STILL HOPING THAT NEW F-16 WILL MAKE THEIR WAY TO PAKISTAN(IT IS JUST AN HOPE.....BUT IN REALITY IT CAN'T HAPPEN SO THEN STOP DREAMING OF IT)
> 
> BUT ON THE OTHER HAND I WANT TO ASK ARE WE
> RECEIVING NEW BVRMs,RADARS&ENGINES
> FROM "TUSAS" COMPANY
> IN TERMS OF "MLU UPGRADES"*


please read the whole thread you will get u answered

I hope this time we will get our F 16 the reasons are the following
1 we got Our 14 F 16 in the past and America was willing to sell us more. 
2 America is stuck if Afghanistan they need pakistan and If US is in Afghanistan for next three years by that time we will get them 

3 US is giving pakistan military assistance in term of dollar each year they would love to sell their own item

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## Sinnerman108

Guys, all the C mockery aside,
what makes you think that if we buy foreign equipment it will run when it is supposed to run ?

Knowing the sophistication of electronics etc, it is more than easy for the US, or any other country to just turn of the equipment when they do not want it to be used.

Like a master control switch ... and there is almost nothing we can do about it
unless we have full ToT.

I think Pakistan missed the ride, when it had a chance to co-develop the avionics for JF-17. it would have opened a world of knowledge to us which we let go in exchange of short sight !


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## Thomas

I understand it is cheaper to upgrade the current F-16's but really Pakistan should look at if they already have not acquiring the Su-35. The F-16 is a great aircraft but no match for the Su-35 in a heads up dogfight. And where India already has the Su-35 in service. Pakistan needs the same capability. The only other alternative is the F-35 but it is still years away from mass deployment to other countries and is much more money to buy and maintain.


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## ejaz007

Dear Thomas,

India does not operate SU-35. They are using SU-30.

At the moment PAF is content with F-16's. Untill JF-17 project is not completed PAF shall not go for another system other than the ones already approved.


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## nightrider_saulat

TOPGUN said:


> Hey dude why don't you try to be postive let the time tell if don't get them then damn we don't get them simple as that lets see wat happens lets not speak to quick !





jalip said:


> please read the whole thread you will get u answered
> 
> I hope this time we will get our F 16 the reasons are the following
> 1 we got Our 14 F 16 in the past and America was willing to sell us more.
> 2 America is stuck if Afghanistan they need pakistan and If US is in Afghanistan for next three years by that time we will get them
> 
> 3 US is giving pakistan military assistance in term of dollar each year they would love to sell their own item


*WELL ONE CAN ONLY HOPE AND PRAY FOR THAT
BELIEVE ME AMERICAN CONGRESSMAN WOULDN'T ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN 
BUT A DISAPPROVAL OF BUYING AMERICAN FIGHTER JETS BY INDIAN GOVERNMENT IN MRCA COMPETITION 
WOULD SERIOUSLY BROUGHT AMERICAN IN THE TABLE OF TALKS TO SELL IT's F-16s TO PAKISTAN​*


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## Arsalan

nightrider_saulat said:


> *WELL ONE CAN ONLY HOPE AND PRAY FOR THAT
> BELIEVE ME AMERICAN CONGRESSMAN WOULDN'T ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN
> BUT A DISAPPROVAL OF BUYING AMERICAN FIGHTER JETS BY INDIAN GOVERNMENT IN MRCA COMPETITION
> WOULD SERIOUSLY BROUGHT AMERICAN IN THE TABLE OF TALKS TO SELL IT's F-16s TO PAKISTAN​*



i totally agree with this!
actually the problem wiht us have been that we were left wiht no real option but to stick with the US!
we are getting JF for routine missions and fill in the neumwric gap. the FC20 will be here with us for the high end role but this will not be happening before 2014 - 2015.even then it will not be a mature system,though it is very likely that FC20 will be on par, if not better then the F16 block 52, but stil we cant comment on it until we know the actual specs and real time performance. now in this scenario with two new platforms, the JF 17 and the FC20, we still need a reliable high tech plane to compensate is anything goes wrong with the JF and the FC. but with JF and FC along with the AWACS it already was a lot of load on our training and maintainance facilities so we were not able to go for another new platform like J11, or gripen or anything so we were compled to go for the F16 with which our staff have a lot of experience. i hope this will help you a bit, this is what i think about the F16 deal!

regards!

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## nightrider_saulat

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i totally agree with this!
> actually the problem wiht us have been that we were left wiht no real option but to stick with the US!
> we are getting JF for routine missions and fill in the neumwric gap. the FC20 will be here with us for the high end role but this will not be happening before 2014 - 2015.even then it will not be a mature system,though it is very likely that FC20 will be on par, if not better then the F16 block 52, but stil we cant comment on it until we know the actual specs and real time performance. now in this scenario with two new platforms, the JF 17 and the FC20, we still need a reliable high tech plane to compensate is anything goes wrong with the JF and the FC. but with JF and FC along with the AWACS it already was a lot of load on our training and maintainance facilities so we were not able to go for another new platform like J11, or gripen or anything so we were compled to go for the F16 with which our staff have a lot of experience. i hope this will help you a bit, this is what i think about the F16 deal!
> 
> regards!


*YES YOU ARE SAYING RIGHT OUR EXPERIENCE WITH F-16.
IS OUR MAIN REASON TO GO FOR F-16s AT FIRST CHOICE
INSTEAD OF J-10B*


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## Arsalan

nightrider_saulat said:


> *YES YOU ARE SAYING RIGHT OUR EXPERIENCE WITH F-16.
> IS OUR MAIN REASON TO GO FOR F-16s AT FIRST CHOICE
> INSTEAD OF J-10B*




yes , getting so many of new platforms at the same time specially when non of them is a mature and established system would not have been wise and for this reason the time frame is adjusted such that first we will be getting JF17, then in four to five years when we will be good at JF, FC20 will start comming in, perhaps that will be the time when PAF start looking for another high tech aircraft, a 4.5 generation preferably, to complement the high end role of FC20!

so we can say that after or around 2015 PAF will be operating a new fleet of planes which are not with us these days!

regards!


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## jalip

arsalanaslam123 said:


> yes , getting so many of new platforms at the same time specially when non of them is a mature and established system would not have been wise and for this reason the time frame is adjusted such that first we will be getting JF17, then in four to five years when we will be good at JF, FC20 will start comming in, perhaps that will be the time when PAF start looking for another high tech aircraft, a 4.5 generation preferably, to complement the high end role of FC20!
> 
> so we can say that after or around 2015 PAF will be operating a new fleet of planes which are not with us these days!
> 
> regards![/QUOTE
> 
> 
> What about mirages used or new that will give us few year for maturing JF 17 and Fc 20 and they cant be expensive then F 16 block 52


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## Arsalan

jalip said:


> the issue of used mirages, the opportunities of getting them and the merits and semerits of that deal have been discussed in detil on relavent thread. i must not mention all those points but the conclusion drawn from that discussion was that they were not the perfect match for the F16 blk52 and also that our govt. still hope for something good comming from the US side! it is us who strongly dont think so but it does not matter because it is the govt. which make the decesions!
> but the point you made is very true!
> we have good experience with mirages, perhaps we know about them more then we know about the F16 as we have been involved in there upgradation programmes.
> perhaps it was an issue of IAF operating the mirage 2000-05 and we didnt wanted to go for the same platform. other then all the technicals prespective, the crashima attatched to the falcons must alos have played its part!
> 
> regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the crashima attatched to the falcons must alos have played its part!
> 
> regards!



?????????????????????????????????


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## jalip

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the issue of used mirages, the opportunities of getting them and the merits and semerits of that deal have been discussed in detil on relavent thread. i must not mention all those points but the conclusion drawn from that discussion was that they were not the perfect match for the F16 blk52 and also that our govt. still hope for something good comming from the US side! it is us who strongly dont think so but it does not matter because it is the govt. which make the decesions!
> but the point you made is very true!
> we have good experience with mirages, perhaps we know about them more then we know about the F16 as we have been involved in there upgradation programmes.
> perhaps it was an issue of IAF operating the mirage 2000-05 and we didnt wanted to go for the same platform. other then all the technicals prespective, the crashima attatched to the falcons must alos have played its part!
> 
> regards!



Greece in the past shot down Turkish F 16 and Greece people are very proud on it i have some friends from greece they already served in armed forces they says that mirages are not bad if india have it so what we are not going for some thing different we have more experience then Indians on mirages 
regards


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## MastanKhan

jalip said:


> Greece in the past shot down Turkish F 16 and Greece people are very proud on it i have some friends from greece they already served in armed forces they says that mirages are not bad if india have it so what we are not going for some thing different we have more experience then Indians on mirages
> regards





Hi,

M2k is as superior a plane as the F 16. It was an assessment blunder on the part of the PAF not getting this plane---we are paying heavily for that mistake for the years gone by and years to come.

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## ironman

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> M2k is as superior a plane as the F 16. It was an assessment blunder on the part of the PAF not getting this plane---we are paying heavily for that mistake for the years gone by and years to come.



Totally agree with you. By the way India has also done the same mistake in the 80's.


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## PAFAce

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> M2k is as superior a plane as the F 16. It was an assessment blunder on the part of the PAF not getting this plane---we are paying heavily for that mistake for the years gone by and years to come.


You seem to be a huge fan of the M2K. I agree it seems a very capable aircraft, but I doubt it would give the PAF the multi-role capability that the F-16 has given. In fact, I am struggling to think of any Air Force around the world that has the M2Ks as its frontline fighter (that's not so say there aren't any, I am just saying that I don't know of any). I also don't see M2Ks satisfying the needs of the Air Superiority squadrons in the PAF, in particular, Squadron 11 and 9. Also, the F-16s are tried and tested in the aviation world, it is one of the most widely used and wanted fighters today. If you offered the F-16 to most countries today, they would take it no-questions-asked. It is still considered the best non-thrust-vectoring conventional dogfighting aircraft in the world, because that was why it was created. 

Don't take me wrong, I am not saying it is the absolute best thing out there. Neither am I trying to sell the M2K short. What I'm trying to show is that there is no way the M2K would have been a better choice for the PAF than the F-16s. It just would not have given us as many capabilities.

Or, maybe I misunderstood your point, in which case, I apologize.


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## Arsalan

PAFAce said:


> You seem to be a huge fan of the M2K. I agree it seems a very capable aircraft, but I doubt it would give the PAF the multi-role capability that the F-16 has given. In fact, I am struggling to think of any Air Force around the world that has the M2Ks as its frontline fighter (that's not so say there aren't any, I am just saying that I don't know of any). I also don't see M2Ks satisfying the needs of the Air Superiority squadrons in the PAF, in particular, Squadron 11 and 9. Also, the F-16s are tried and tested in the aviation world, it is one of the most widely used and wanted fighters today. If you offered the F-16 to most countries today, they would take it no-questions-asked. It is still considered the best non-thrust-vectoring conventional dogfighting aircraft in the world, because that was why it was created.
> 
> Don't take me wrong, I am not saying it is the absolute best thing out there. Neither am I trying to sell the M2K short. What I'm trying to show is that there is no way the M2K would have been a better choice for the PAF than the F-16s. It just would not have given us as many capabilities.
> 
> Or, maybe I misunderstood your point, in which case, I apologize.



good analysis dear!
the M2K is indeed a great plane but wont have satisfied our needs. even i dont remember of any AF using mirages as frontline fighters!


regards!


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## MastanKhan

Hi Paface,

My point of view simply is that M2K had no sanctions on it. F 16 is the greatest plane there is---but when we can't get to fly it off our airfields due to the shortage of spares---what good will it do---.

We need a reliable supplier---a quality plane---a technology that is up at the front line---we have to be fair to our pilots.

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## fatman17

what makes us think the M2K is superior to the F-16 - if it were, then a lot of airforces around the world would be jumping for it, which is not the case - keep the politics aside and compare please!


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

What is superior---is what I have available to me without any strings attached---that is all I have been saying over the time. I am only talking in terms of Pakistan.

If M2k is not flying in as many colors as the F 16 is not for the reason that it is not capable---it is rather the salesmanship of the americans---and american pleasing policies of foreign govts---.

The french are not the best salesmen---the equipment comes in packages that they desire to sell---the americans sells the quipment as the buyer wants it to be---you may buythe package---by the unit or by the dozen---.

The relattionship with france---is also determined by how the americans are dealing with the french at that time.

Now coming down to it---what is the big deal about the present and previous F 16's that pak has---it has an obsolete 80's technology weapons system. The upgrades are a coming---but that is a different story---.

What I am asking is---why are we seeking the best of the best---not everybody marries the 'PROM QUEEN'---what happens to the other girls---they just don't disappear into the haze---as a matter of fact they are the ones who are the caretakers of the future---the prom queen ends with in drugs and divorce---

The same is the case with our pakistani F 16's---we chose the prettiest---didnot realize that the pretty didnot like us.

If pakistan had chosen the M2k in the 80's---the reputation of the mirage would have been at a different pleateau---more countries would have followed the example of pakistan---we would have been assembling / manufacturing most of the m2k in pakistan---and it would have come as no surprise---if pakistan would have partenered france in manufacturing the rafael----the 80's was a very crucial time period for the paf and pak govt---the pak govt failed in understanding the future needs of the paf as did the paf officials tehmsleves---thety went for the HOTTIE and left the old reliable behind.

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## Arsalan

> Originally Posted by arsalanaslam123
> the crashima attatched to the falcons must alos have played its part!
> 
> regards!





hasnain0099 said:


> ?????????????????????????????????




opss, really sorry!
i meant to say *charisma*. got it wrong alltogether!

reagrds!


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> what makes us think the M2K is superior to the F-16 - if it were, then a lot of airforces around the world would be jumping for it, which is not the case - keep the politics aside and compare please!


for sure the F16 are a better platform compared to the mirages but think about the ones that we have (blk 15), perhaps in our case M2K would have been a better choice.
perhaps the strong point of the M2K is that it will alwas be availabe and there would have been no issues with spare parts!
i guess a more appropiate statement would have been to say that:



> M2k would have served PAF better then the F16 is doing!



atleast we would have got them in time and there would have been no set backs coze of spares! perhaps we could have avoided the *lost decade*. 

regards!


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## jalip

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What is superior---is what I have available to me without any strings attached---that is all I have been saying over the time. I am only talking in terms of Pakistan.
> 
> If M2k is not flying in as many colors as the F 16 is not for the reason that it is not capable---it is rather the salesmanship of the americans---and american pleasing policies of foreign govts---.
> 
> The french are not the best salesmen---the equipment comes in packages that they desire to sell---the americans sells the quipment as the buyer wants it to be---you may buythe package---by the unit or by the dozen---.
> 
> The relattionship with france---is also determined by how the americans are dealing with the french at that time.
> 
> Now coming down to it---what is the big deal about the present and previous F 16's that pak has---it has an obsolete 80's technology weapons system. The upgrades are a coming---but that is a different story---.
> 
> What I am asking is---why are we seeking the best of the best---not everybody marries the 'PROM QUEEN'---what happens to the other girls---they just don't disappear into the haze---as a matter of fact they are the ones who are the caretakers of the future---the prom queen ends with in drugs and divorce---
> 
> The same is the case with our pakistani F 16's---we chose the prettiest---didnot realize that the pretty didnot like us.
> 
> If pakistan had chosen the M2k in the 80's---the reputation of the mirage would have been at a different pleateau---more countries would have followed the example of pakistan---we would have been assembling / manufacturing most of the m2k in pakistan---and it would have come as no surprise---if pakistan would have partenered france in manufacturing the rafael----the 80's was a very crucial time period for the paf and pak govt---the pak govt failed in understanding the future needs of the paf as did the paf officials tehmsleves---thety went for the HOTTIE and left the old reliable behind.


totally agreed sir with 45 F 16 what u gona do our requirement was more then 100 US can ban any time on the other hand french are more money oriented if in the future if we are going to buy any western plan we should go for mirages 
regards


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## Arsalan

jalip said:


> totally agreed sir with 45 F 16 what u gona do our requirement was more then 100 US can ban any time on the other hand french are more money oriented if in the future if we are going to buy any western plan we should go for mirages
> regards



agreed! the choice must be of any french plane! the mirages will be pretty much old platforms by the time we will be going for new platforms! i mean for the time being the policy seems to be *" Stick with JF17 and FC20"*.
in future (somewhere around 2015-2018) the rafale will be a contendar! the mirages may well be gone by then!

regards!


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## TOPGUN

Again again i say wait and see wat happens with the f-16's inshallah it might even happen come true! be postive people !


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## Arsalan

TOPGUN said:


> Again again i say *wait and see wat happens *with the f-16's inshallah it might even happen come true! be postive people !



that is what the PAF will be doing!
i want to say again, for the time being the concentration is on the FC20 and JF17 as it shouls be, we will be waiting to see what goes on with F16z after the FC and JF systems are mature and if we dont have the F16 then the topic of another high tech plane will come to discussion, on the other habd if we get F16 blk 52 in the mean while, PAF must be fine with them and rest of the fleet of JF and FC foe another decade or so!

regards!


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

With Zardari in office, we will never know what happens with him, the french, the arab emirates and qatar. We all might wake up one day and would be surprised to see what may land on the nearby air base.

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## MZUBAIR

arsalanaslam123 said:


> that is what the PAF will be doing!
> i want to say again, for the time being the concentration is on the FC20 and JF17 as it shouls be, we will be waiting to see what goes on with F16z after the FC and JF systems are mature and if we dont have the F16 then the topic of another high tech plane will come to discussion, on the other habd *if we get F16 blk 52 in the mean while*, PAF must be fine with them and rest of the fleet of JF and FC foe another decade or so!
> 
> regards!



I am feeling doubt that we are getting any F-16 in near future.


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## MZUBAIR

arsalanaslam123 said:


> any french plane! the mirages will be pretty much old platforms by the time we will be going for new platforms! i mean for the time being the policy seems to be *" Stick with JF17 and FC20"*.
> in future (somewhere around 2015-2018) the rafale will be a contendar! the mirages may well be gone by then!
> 
> regards!



I think PAF should work more on JF-17, between 2015-2018 Refale would not be that attractive........probabily we would be looking for 5th generation fighters

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## MZUBAIR

jalip said:


> totally agreed sir with 45 F 16 what u gona do our requirement was more then 100 US can ban any time on the other hand french are more money oriented if in the future if we are going to buy any western plan we should go for mirages
> regards



Its batter to invest on JF-17 then Mirage.
Mirage is old horse.

New Engine (Hopefully French), New Radar (Kind of AESA), with new weapons (Western) along with some stealthy features will take JF to 4.5th generation, which will make it comapreable to F-16 Block 60.

Besides that 30 to 40 more J-10B can compunsate F-16 quantity.


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## Arsalan

MZUBAIR said:


> I am feeling doubt that we are getting any F-16 in near future.



all i have to say is to refer you to post number 619 by TOPGUN 
it was like:



> posted by *TOPGUN*
> Again again i say wait and see wat happens with the f-16's inshallah it might even happen come true! be postive people !



regards!


----------



## Arsalan

MZUBAIR said:


> I think PAF should work more on JF-17, between 2015-2018 Refale would not be that attractive........probabily we would be looking for 5th generation fighters



agreed!
it seems this will be the strategy! keep going on with the JF and FC foe about 5-6 years until you get good with them. then perhaps look for a limited number of high end fighterd to complement the FC20, may it be F16 or rafale! mirages wont be an option then!
even some other chines or even Pak-China project can come up as a contendor!

regards!


----------



## araz

arsalanaslam123 said:


> agreed!
> it seems this will be the strategy! keep going on with the JF and FC foe about 5-6 years until you get good with them. then perhaps look for a limited number of high end fighterd to complement the FC20, may it be F16 or rafale! mirages wont be an option then!
> even some other chines or even Pak-China project can come up as a contendor!
> 
> regards!



Arsalan
Even if we go with your strategy, By the indicators available, Thunder in low role, and the high role(FC20) not delivered till 2015. leaves us a major gap in case the Bl52s dont come. The current F16s are optimzed for low roles again. So we have a hiatus which will need to be covered much earlier. If Bl52s come, we dont have any worries as we can order FC20s as they mature. Either M2Ks or Rafale would be the only candidate to fill this gap quickly, the former more so than the latter. Or we look East ahgain towardsJ11s. 
I doubt if there is another option if we dont get Bl52s.
My 2 paisas worth.
Araz

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## IceCold

araz said:


> Arsalan
> Even if we go with your strategy, By the indicators available, Thunder in low role, and the high role(FC20) not delivered till 2015. leaves us a major gap in case the Bl52s dont come. The current F16s are optimzed for low roles again. So we have a hiatus which will need to be covered much earlier. If Bl52s come, we dont have any worries as we can order FC20s as they mature. Either M2Ks or Rafale would be the only candidate to fill this gap quickly, the former more so than the latter. Or we look East ahgain towardsJ11s.
> I doubt if there is another option if we dont get Bl52s.
> My 2 paisas worth.
> Araz



That is exactly the problem sir you just pointed out. I dont understand what in the hell were our military planners thinking? If block-52 gets sanctioned, we are left with a huge gap and the only thing we can rely on will be our JFs and the existing F-16s against MKIs, upgraded mirages, upgraded Mig-29 and by the time we start getting FC-20 i.e is by 2015, Indians will also start getting MRCA not to forget the Pak-FA something we dont seem to be concerned off as of now.
Point is we dont get block-52 as you mentioned, then we are screwed big time thanks to our planners.

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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> for sure the F16 are a better platform compared to the mirages but think about the ones that we have (blk 15), perhaps in our case M2K would have been a better choice.
> perhaps the strong point of the M2K is that it will alwas be availabe and there would have been no issues with spare parts!
> i guess a more appropiate statement would have been to say that:
> 
> 
> 
> atleast we would have got them in time and there would have been no set backs coze of spares! perhaps we could have avoided the *lost decade*.
> 
> regards!


I think it had one MAJOR advantage over F-16s in PAF service; BVR capability.I can still remember the quote of ACM at kargil conflict


> if we would've had a couple of squaderns of Mirrage 2000, situation would have been different


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## nightrider_saulat

*can anyone please tell me which radars,engines and missiles
are we recieving with our MLU upgraded f-16s*


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## Arsalan

araz said:


> Arsalan
> Even if we go with your strategy, By the indicators available, Thunder in low role, and the high role(FC20) not delivered till 2015. leaves us a major gap in case the Bl52s dont come. The current F16s are optimzed for low roles again. So we have a hiatus which will need to be covered much earlier. If Bl52s come, we dont have any worries as we can order FC20s as they mature. Either M2Ks or Rafale would be the only candidate to fill this gap quickly, the former more so than the latter. Or we look East ahgain towardsJ11s.
> I doubt if there is another option if we dont get Bl52s.
> My 2 paisas worth.
> Araz



first of all sir, accept my congratulations on being promoted on the forum! keep it going!! 
secondly i really appreciate as you have very rightly analyzed the situation. i have to agree on this.
but sir dont you think rafale will be a bit too expensive and also that J11 wont be comming due to a hell of problems that we have already discussed!
what you have described seem to be the real situation but i am afraid we wont be having an easy way out!

regards!


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## Patriot

I agree, the situation will be very bad if we don't get F-16's...because we will be in very bad position for at least 5-6 years and India might exploit it in name of Surgical Strikes..


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## SBD-3

Patriot said:


> I agree, the situation will be very bad if we don't get F-16's...because we will be in very bad position for at least 5-6 years and India might exploit it in name of Surgical Strikes..



I think PAF should have a fallback option


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## fatman17

hasnain0099 said:


> I think PAF should have a fallback option



fallback is chinese equipment and then surplus mirages!

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## PAFAce

You know, in the next few years, a lot of F-16/F-18s are about to become available (mostly to be replaced by 4.5th Gen aircraft). I will try to compile a list of countries that will be retiring parts of their F-16 fleets in large numbers. I just think that it would be worthwhile to look into these as possible acquisitions, since the F-16 was always meant to be a numbers fighter. Who knows, we might get the kind of deal we got with the Mirages, it would be a huge shot in the arm for the PAF, for sure.

It's certainly going to be more economical than acquiring J-11s, which so many on this forum seem to think is vital for PAF survival.


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## fatman17

PAFAce said:


> You know, in the next few years, a lot of F-16/F-18s are about to become available (mostly to be replaced by 4.5th Gen aircraft). I will try to compile a list of countries that will be retiring parts of their F-16 fleets in large numbers. I just think that it would be worthwhile to look into these as possible acquisitions, since the F-16 was always meant to be a numbers fighter. Who knows, we might get the kind of deal we got with the Mirages, it would be a huge shot in the arm for the PAF, for sure.
> 
> It's certainly going to be more economical than acquiring J-11s, which so many on this forum seem to think is vital for PAF survival.



320 F-16s are parked in Arizona !!!


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## Patriot

PAFAce said:


> You know, in the next few years, a lot of F-16/F-18s are about to become available (mostly to be replaced by 4.5th Gen aircraft). I will try to compile a list of countries that will be retiring parts of their F-16 fleets in large numbers. I just think that it would be worthwhile to look into these as possible acquisitions, since the F-16 was always meant to be a numbers fighter. Who knows, we might get the kind of deal we got with the Mirages, it would be a huge shot in the arm for the PAF, for sure.
> 
> It's certainly going to be more economical than acquiring J-11s, which so many on this forum seem to think is vital for PAF survival.


Purchasing any US Air Craft requires US approval which i highly doubt that US will give..


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## sancho

PAFAce said:


> You know, in the next few years, a lot of F-16/F-18s are about to become available (mostly to be replaced by 4.5th Gen aircraft). I will try to compile a list of countries that will be retiring parts of their F-16 fleets in large numbers. I just think that it would be worthwhile to look into these as possible acquisitions, since the F-16 was always meant to be a numbers fighter. Who knows, we might get the kind of deal we got with the Mirages, it would be a huge shot in the arm for the PAF, for sure.
> 
> It's certainly going to be more economical than acquiring J-11s, which so many on this forum seem to think is vital for PAF survival.


But those F16/F18 are older blocks, do you think they will be usful for PAF?


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## fatman17

sancho said:


> But those F16/F18 are older blocks, do you think they will be usful for PAF?



just upgrade them!


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## Tempest II

fatman17 said:


> just upgrade them!



I thought the idea was to keep away from relying on the US because they can AND WILL embargo you when you need the weapons most.   Besides Pakistan helping them fighting Al Qaeda (5 to 10 years maybe), it seems the US might be interested in working with India in the longer term for economic reasons.  ???   i.e. trying to sell them more advanced F-16s and giving them nuclear technology be it for peaceful purposes. ???


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## PAFAce

sancho said:


> But those F16/F18 are older blocks, do you think they will be usful for PAF?


They could be made useful.


fatman17 said:


> just upgrade them!


Correct. I honestly believe we did a great job with our second-hand Mirages. One man's junk is another man's treasure. Also, imagine if we could develop the level of expertise in F-16 refurbishment that we did with our Mirages. In fact, I believe we could tap into Turkey's F-16 expertise and really work wonders.

Turkey is another country that will be retiring top-notch F-16s soon enough. They would be more than willing to sell to Pakistan, I believe.


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## mean_bird

The fundamental question is : How much more life do these retiring F-16s have? 

If you need to undergo MLU and structural upgrade, these birds might not be available before the tentative date for our FC-20s. The second important question is : How much will they cost assuming they are available?

Both these are critical questions that , I feel, might go against buying second-hand F-16s. Ofcouse, there could be an exceptional offer out there which we should be looking out for but in general, I have little hopes in this.


----------



## araz

PAFAce said:


> You know, in the next few years, a lot of F-16/F-18s are about to become available (mostly to be replaced by 4.5th Gen aircraft). I will try to compile a list of countries that will be retiring parts of their F-16 fleets in large numbers. I just think that it would be worthwhile to look into these as possible acquisitions, since the F-16 was always meant to be a numbers fighter. Who knows, we might get the kind of deal we got with the Mirages, it would be a huge shot in the arm for the PAF, for sure.
> 
> It's certainly going to be more economical than acquiring J-11s, which so many on this forum seem to think is vital for PAF survival.



We have to wait and see. I think there are a few problems which PAF is trying to overcome. The US is law unto itself. So we either wait and see and if we get our new planes, then PAF will probably go up to its full capability of 110 or so F16 in its inventry. If there is a problem then we have to look else where. I don't think anybody has the answers to what happens in the future, although MurdK Saheb has maintained all along that we will not be getting them. The next yr will be crucial.
Arsalan regarding Rafale, I have a favourite *dream* where we liase with UAE and Kuwait and set up servicing services in PAkistan and do a joint deal with all 3 for a large number of planes. Initially it might be expensive but it will even out in the long term. We need a couple of Squadrons of good hi end planes and it is anyoes guess as to what PAF can get out of the french in these desperate times. However this could we ll remain a dream if PAF finds something of equivalent quality from the Chinese and equips it with some Western toys
WaSalam
Araz

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## araz

nightrider_saulat said:


> *can anyone please tell me which radars,engines and missiles
> are we recieving with our MLU upgraded f-16s*



Engines remain the same
APG69V8??
AMRAAM C5
If you read this thread from the beginning Sir Blain has posted the details of all the goodies we will get.It is worth reading this thread if you are interested in F16s. there is a lot of information on it.
Araz


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## hj786

PAFAce said:


> *Correct. I honestly believe we did a great job with our second-hand Mirages. One man's junk is another man's treasure.* Also, imagine if we could develop the level of expertise in F-16 refurbishment that we did with our Mirages. In fact, I believe we could tap into Turkey's F-16 expertise and really work wonders.



I agree, IMO the PAF's upgraded Mirage III/V are fantastic jets if you take into account the alternatives available to the PAF at the time and I hope they stay on for as long as possible. But I'd like to think the PAF have gone past the F-16 era. The Mirage III served PAF well ever since its induction in the late 1960s; apart from the 1980s, the F-16 is a different story. 
I really don't think we'll ever see an F-16 Rebuild Factory, it would require so much support from the US just for the electronics, never mind the airframe.


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## Manticore

fatman17 said:


> 320 F-16s are parked in Arizona !!!



320 f16s..... well it brought water in my mouth!

ive read that countries which get them will only pay for upgradations?


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## nightrider_saulat

araz said:


> Engines remain the same
> APG69V8??
> AMRAAM C5
> If you read this thread from the beginning Sir Blain has posted the details of all the goodies we will get.It is worth reading this thread if you are interested in F16s. there is a lot of information on it.
> Araz



*thanks for helping me dear*


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## MastanKhan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> With Zardari in office, we will never know what happens with him, the french, the arab emirates and qatar. We all might wake up one day and would be surprised to see what may land on the nearby air base.




Hi,

That was just an assumption 3 days ago---what has come out of the parliament today, was a surprise---what maybe coming out in the future may well be a head turner.


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## fatman17

ANTIBODY said:


> 320 f16s..... well it brought water in my mouth!
> 
> ive read that countries which get them will only pay for *upgradations*?



correct-a-mundo!


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## Arsalan

ANTIBODY said:


> 320 f16s..... well it brought water in my mouth!
> 
> ive read that countries which get them will only pay for upgradations?



and i can feel bells ringing all around my head! 
i sincerely wish we do not make the same mistake again!! 

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> and i can feel bells ringing all around my head!
> i sincerely wish we do not make the same mistake again!!
> 
> regards!



Will US hand them over to Pakistan??????????????????????


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> Will US hand them over to Pakistan??????????????????????



despit the opposition of lots of other senior members and some ggod points made by all of them, i stil want to stick to my wish that, i hope NO!

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> despit the opposition of lots of other senior members and some ggod points made by all of them, i stil want to stick to my wish that, i hope NO!
> 
> regards!



I think that sums up the debate


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## PAFAce

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That was just an assumption 3 days ago---what has come out of the parliament today, was a surprise---what maybe coming out in the future may well be a head turner.



Mr. Khan, which news exactly are you referring to? I didn't find anything re: F-16 on the Geo website. Are you referring to the French and German submarine deal drama?

*Edit*
Nobody said that we'll get the 320 F-16s from the US. That is nothing but fantasy. However, my point was that a lot of F-16s will be retiring from services in other Air Forces, being replaced by 4.5/5 gen fighters (ex. Turkey). The US doesn't want to sell us new F-16s, but I hardly think they'll have a problem with the Turks selling us their old F-16s.

I'm just saying, the F-16 is still the best conventional (non-thrust vectoring) dogfighter in the world, and is still a heckuvan MRCA. No harm in trying to acquire large numbers the way we did with the Mirages. Turkey has an aerospace industry centered around the F-16s, and they're reliable allies aren't they?


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## BATMAN

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That was just an assumption 3 days ago---what has come out of the parliament today, was a surprise---what maybe coming out in the future may well be a head turner.



This is what I call return favor to indians.
It was already hinted by insiders few days ago and actually was circulating in media.


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## MastanKhan

Hi Paface,

The news about cancelling the german sub deal and going for french.


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## nightrider_saulat

PAFAce said:


> Mr. Khan, which news exactly are you referring to? I didn't find anything re: F-16 on the Geo website. Are you referring to the French and German submarine deal drama?
> 
> *Edit*
> Nobody said that we'll get the 320 F-16s from the US. That is nothing but fantasy. However, my point was that a lot of F-16s will be retiring from services in other Air Forces, being replaced by 4.5/5 gen fighters (ex. Turkey). The US doesn't want to sell us new F-16s, but I hardly think they'll have a problem with the Turks selling us their old F-16s.
> 
> I'm just saying, the F-16 is still the best conventional (non-thrust vectoring) dogfighter in the world, and is still a heckuvan MRCA. No harm in trying to acquire large numbers the way we did with the Mirages. Turkey has an aerospace industry centered around the F-16s, and they're reliable allies aren't they?


*I agree with you I think we should look forword to buy used f-16 block30 standards(in the figure of 30-50) instead of buying the costly f-16 block52 just hardly above the figure of 18
in my view any major reason for going for this proposal is
"cost-effective"*


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## SBD-3

MastanKhan said:


> Hi Paface,
> 
> The news about cancelling the german sub deal and going for french.



i Have read the news it no way states that the deal has been cancelled rather PN cheif is asked to give an in camra breifeing to the parliament for the decision i have posted the extract of news in naval thread so it can be varified from there.I think PN chief will convince the parliament on PN's decision.I think it is a postive step the details of the deal to be presented to house so that transparancy is ensured in the deal

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## blain2

araz said:


> Engines remain the same
> APG69V8??
> AMRAAM C5
> If you read this thread from the beginning Sir Blain has posted the details of all the goodies we will get.It is worth reading this thread if you are interested in F16s. there is a lot of information on it.
> Araz



Araz Sahib,
The radars will be V9s. Same as the ones on Blk-52. A very smart move to standardize on the same radar for the entire F-16 fleet.


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## blain2

nightrider_saulat said:


> *I agree with you I think we should look forword to buy used f-16 block30 standards(in the figure of 30-50) instead of buying the costly f-16 block52 just hardly above the figure of 18
> in my view any major reason for going for this proposal is
> "cost-effective"*



PAF looked all over for older F-16s with a good part of airframe life left and found very few. This is the reason that most of the airframes sitting at AMARC in Az were not purchased by the PAF. The structural life of the aircraft is just as important as the avionics specially when the PAF plans to fly the F-16 fleet until 2030 or so. Given the state of Pakistani economy and the Mirage legacy, first one came 50 years ago and we are still flying them, I am sure that the poor PAF blokes will be flying the Viper even beyond the 2030 timeframe.

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## blain2

On the issue of the subs, its essentially the responsibility of the PN chief to ensure that they only induct U-214s. Based on what is being said and heard, the CJSC is also on board but then again it just depends on how Zardari and team fineness this situation.

Although I think the U-214s on merit are a better platform, both suppliers I.E. Germans and French are suspect in terms of reliability of supplies. Although where the French make great hardware, I think the Germans make it even better.

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## nightrider_saulat

blain2 said:


> PAF looked all over for older F-16s with a good part of airframe life left and found very few. This is the reason that most of the airframes sitting at AMARC in Az were not purchased by the PAF. The structural life of the aircraft is just as important as the avionics specially when the PAF plans to fly the F-16 fleet until 2030 or so. Given the state of Pakistani economy and the Mirage legacy, first one came 50 years ago and we are still flying them, I am sure that the poor PAF blokes will be flying the Viper even beyond the 2030 timeframe.


*sit that is a very bad news because in indo-pak air warfare regards
numbers do matters*


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## SBD-3

blain2 said:


> PAF looked all over for older F-16s with a good part of airframe life left and found very few. This is the reason that most of the airframes sitting at AMARC in Az were not purchased by the PAF. The structural life of the aircraft is just as important as the avionics specially when the PAF plans to fly the F-16 fleet until 2030 or so. Given the state of Pakistani economy and the Mirage legacy, first one came 50 years ago and we are still flying them, I am sure that the poor PAF blokes will be flying the Viper even beyond the 2030 timeframe.



2030! No Way! PAF will definitly look for change after 2019.We might see Twin Engines.or might even JXX you never know 2030 is a long long time it takes the world of today is so sensitive that we can not even predict about tomorrow do we?.IMHO by 2030 we will have Thunders Getting phazed out FC-20 as low end and a possible new pakistani platform with JXX forming the high end


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## Arsalan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi Paface,
> 
> The news about cancelling the german sub deal and going for french.


sir i guess *Mr.Hasnain *is right. i have also watched the news and even the part of debate in parliment about the issue. all it stated was that a parlimentarina demanded in-camera briefing about why is the deal being delayed and that he was concerned about the rumaors of going for french subs and wanted the members to be briefed about the issue by the cheif of naval staff!

i dont think PN will walk out of the deal as all the was joined wiht turkish deal and ws going to do lot o good to pn and Pakistan. i hope mr.Z can give up some of his sahre from the military deal and allow pakistan to go for what is beeter from them either it be U214 or a french sub!!

regards!


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> 2030! No Way! PAF will definitly look for change after 2019.We might see Twin Engines.or might even JXX you never know 2030 is a long long time it takes the world of today is so sensitive that we can not even predict about tomorrow do we?.IMHO by 2030 we will have Thunders Getting phazed out FC-20 as low end and a possible new pakistani platform with JXX forming the high end



now this get me a bit confused! 
are you stating that by 2030 the JF will be phased out or the FC 20 will go! i bet this wont happen!

i mean we have not spend lots of money on platforms that will be phased out in just 15 -20 ears! yes upgradations and new blocks will surely come in but these planes are here to stay for long dude! we have operated the second habd mirage and F16 for decedes so how come a new jet phased out in such short period of there induction!
i seriously doubt it! i hope you understand!

regards!


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> now this get me a bit confused!
> are you stating that by 2030 the JF will be phased out or the FC 20 will go! i bet this wont happen!
> 
> i mean we have not spend lots of money on platforms that will be phased out in just 15 -20 ears! yes upgradations and new blocks will surely come in but these planes are here to stay for long dude! we have operated the second habd mirage and F16 for decedes so how come a new jet phased out in such short period of there induction!
> i seriously doubt it! i hope you understand!
> 
> regards!



agreed but at that time the tech race wasent that fast as it is today we used mirages and falcons because there wasn't much on offer comparable to this in export market now look at the choices.when one has the monopoly like US and Russia had enjoyed in past, it is obvious that push for improvement is not that much.Look at now the contenders in 4.5th gen 
J-11B
J-10B
JAS-30 
EF2000
Rafael
Falcons
Mig-35
Su-30
Su-35
JF
and not to forget
Super hornets
and Eagles 
look at the fighters on offer have been multiplied
so obviously the push for improvements have manifolded so dont expect the process to slow down now rapid changes will take place in AC industry 2030 is looooooooooooooooooong loooooooooooooooong way to think my friend.I wonder what the world would have at that time


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## ironman

Some points to note..

*Pakistan Upgrades its F-16s ​*By Prasun K. Sengupta

Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc (TAI) recently succeeded in bagging a USD 75 million combat aircraft modernisation contract from Pakistan under which a total of 42 Lockheed Martin-built F-16A/Bs belonging to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will be upgraded at TAIs facilities in 46 months starting from October 2010. The Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) regarding the start of work on the PAF F-16 Modernisation Programme was signed between TAI and the PAF during the IDEAS Defence Exhibition in September 2006 in Karachi, Pakistan.

Being invited to the international bid for the PAFs F-16 Modernisation Programme, TAI, among other European competitors, was announced as the main contractor of the programme following the final evaluation by PAF authorities in July 2008. Following contractual negotiations, which started in 2009 between TAI and Pakistani authorities, and the subsequent mutual agreement, the contract was signed between TAI and Pakistans ministry of defence production on June 29 at a ceremony held in Rawalpindi. In 2006, as a result of an earlier bidding process, TAI, which had signed an agreement with the Royal Jordanian Air Force for the modernisation of its F-16A/Bs, had successfully completed the programme with the delivery of the last aircraft last April.


*The PAF presently operates 46 F-16A/Bs of which 32 remain from the original 40 aircraft that Pakistan bought in the early Eighties. Since 2005, the USAF has transferred 14 Excess Defense Article (EDA) F-16A/Bs to Pakistan*. *The current Pakistan F-16 procurement programme is composed of three Letters of Offer and Acceptance (LOA)*. The first LOA providing for the production of 18 F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft is underway: *four aircraft will be ready in June 2010; four aircraft in August 2010; five aircraft in October 2010; four aircraft in Dec 2010; and, one aircraft in December 2011*.

*The second LOA provides for munitions and includes: 500 Raytheon AIM-120C-5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM); 750 Mark 84 2,000lb General Purpose bombs; 700 BLU-109 2,000lb Penetrator bombs; 500 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) tail kits; 1,600 Enhanced Guided Bomb Unit (EGBU) kits; and assorted bomb fuzes and support equipment. These weapons will be available for delivery to Pakistan beginning in June 2010.*

*The third LOA provides for the Mid-Life Update (MLU) of their current fleet of 46 aircraft: four of these aircraft are currently in Fort Worth undergoing Trial Verification Installation, which is part of the mid-life upgrade (MLU) programme. Under the MLU LOA, Pakistan is procuring Falcon STAR structural upgrade kits for the 32 original F-16A/B aircraft and 35 MLU avionics upgrade kits for the current fleet (including three of the recently transferred EDA aircraft). There is an option on the contract to procure 11 additional MLU avionics upgrade kits for the remaining 11 aircraft. Pakistan has not yet exercised this option, but plans to do so at a future date. *

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## Arsalan

ironman said:


> Some points to note..
> 
> *Pakistan Upgrades its F-16s ​*By Prasun K. Sengupta
> 
> Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc (TAI) recently succeeded in bagging a USD 75 million combat aircraft modernisation contract from Pakistan under which a total of 42 Lockheed Martin-built F-16A/Bs belonging to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will be upgraded at TAIs facilities in 46 months starting from October 2010. The Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) regarding the start of work on the PAF F-16 Modernisation Programme was signed between TAI and the PAF during the IDEAS Defence Exhibition in September 2006 in Karachi, Pakistan.
> 
> Being invited to the international bid for the PAFs F-16 Modernisation Programme, TAI, among other European competitors, was announced as the main contractor of the programme following the final evaluation by PAF authorities in July 2008. Following contractual negotiations, which started in 2009 between TAI and Pakistani authorities, and the subsequent mutual agreement, the contract was signed between TAI and Pakistans ministry of defence production on June 29 at a ceremony held in Rawalpindi. In 2006, as a result of an earlier bidding process, TAI, which had signed an agreement with the Royal Jordanian Air Force for the modernisation of its F-16A/Bs, had successfully completed the programme with the delivery of the last aircraft last April.
> 
> 
> *The PAF presently operates 46 F-16A/Bs of which 32 remain from the original 40 aircraft that Pakistan bought in the early Eighties. Since 2005, the USAF has transferred 14 Excess Defense Article (EDA) F-16A/Bs to Pakistan*. *The current Pakistan F-16 procurement programme is composed of three Letters of Offer and Acceptance (LOA)*. The first LOA providing for the production of 18 F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft is underway: *four aircraft will be ready in June 2010; four aircraft in August 2010; five aircraft in October 2010; four aircraft in Dec 2010; and, one aircraft in December 2011*.
> 
> *The second LOA provides for munitions and includes: 500 Raytheon AIM-120C-5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM); 750 Mark 84 2,000lb General Purpose bombs; 700 BLU-109 2,000lb Penetrator bombs; 500 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) tail kits; 1,600 Enhanced Guided Bomb Unit (EGBU) kits; and assorted bomb fuzes and support equipment. These weapons will be available for delivery to Pakistan beginning in June 2010.*
> 
> *The third LOA provides for the Mid-Life Update (MLU) of their current fleet of 46 aircraft: four of these aircraft are currently in Fort Worth undergoing Trial Verification Installation, which is part of the mid-life upgrade (MLU) programme. Under the MLU LOA, Pakistan is procuring Falcon STAR structural upgrade kits for the 32 original F-16A/B aircraft and 35 MLU avionics upgrade kits for the current fleet (including three of the recently transferred EDA aircraft). There is an option on the contract to procure 11 additional MLU avionics upgrade kits for the remaining 11 aircraft. Pakistan has not yet exercised this option, but plans to do so at a future date. *



a nice composite pack of information, thanks!
it would have helped more if you could have provided the link to the news!

regards!


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## blain2

hasnain0099 said:


> agreed but at that time the tech race wasent that fast as it is today we used mirages and falcons because there wasn't much on offer comparable to this in export market now look at the choices.when one has the monopoly like US and Russia had enjoyed in past, it is obvious that push for improvement is not that much.Look at now the contenders in 4.5th gen
> J-11B
> J-10B
> JAS-30
> EF2000
> Rafael
> Falcons
> Mig-35
> Su-30
> Su-35
> JF
> and not to forget
> Super hornets
> and Eagles
> look at the fighters on offer have been multiplied
> so obviously the push for improvements have manifolded so dont expect the process to slow down now rapid changes will take place in AC industry 2030 is looooooooooooooooooong loooooooooooooooong way to think my friend.I wonder what the world would have at that time



Hasnain,

If the economy stays the way it is, then I can bet that F-16s will stay even after 2030. If the economy improves then all bets are off.

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## fatman17

PAF is looking to have by 2015, 150 JF-17s, 60 F-16s, 40 FC-20s and 50 F-7PGs if all the plans and budget committments are on-time. the period between 2013-15 is going to be very critical not to mention exciting for the PAF. the Mirages, F-7Ps and A-5s will be part of PAF history only. its a possibility that the Mirage ROSE III a/c may still be flying but only if the time-lines mentioned above are not met!


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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> PAF is looking to have by 2015, 150 JF-17s, 60 F-16s, 40 FC-20s and 50 F-7PGs if all the plans and budget committments are on-time. the period between 2013-15 is going to be very critical not to mention exciting for the PAF. the Mirages, F-7Ps and A-5s will be part of PAF history only. its a possibility that the Mirage ROSE III a/c may still be flying but only if the time-lines mentioned above are not met!



Mirages and PGs will be nomore once thunder is inducted.however mirrages will be replaced at last after PGs.the reason for PAF to be looking at two seater Thuder seems to be a supportive arguments as two seaters are considered better for dedicated missions and strike rolls but till 2015 i think thunder wouldhave replaced both considering the production speed


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## araz

hasnain0099 said:


> 2030! No Way! PAF will definitly look for change after 2019.We might see Twin Engines.or might even JXX you never know 2030 is a long long time it takes the world of today is so sensitive that we can not even predict about tomorrow do we?.IMHO by 2030 we will have Thunders Getting phazed out FC-20 as low end and a possible new pakistani platform with JXX forming the high end



marey Bhai
Be realistic. In the current economic down turn where it will take another 2-3 yrs for the developed nations to turn themselves around, it will take an inefficient pakistan even longer. In these circumstances, where do you think the money to chenge platforms is going to come from? The chances are that we will be seeing a fair amount of our current inventary still in use by 2019.and that will include Mirages, and even A5s.
Araz
Araz


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## IceCold

fatman17 said:


> PAF is looking to have by 2015, 150 JF-17s, 60 F-16s, 40 FC-20s and 50 F-7PGs if all the plans and budget committments are on-time. the period between 2013-15 is going to be very critical not to mention exciting for the PAF. the Mirages, F-7Ps and A-5s will be part of PAF history only. its a possibility that the Mirage ROSE III a/c may still be flying but only if the time-lines mentioned above are not met!



Just one question sir what are we planning to do with F-7pgs by 2015 when all of the modern air warfare will depend upon two things BVR and stealth.


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## fatman17

IceCold said:


> Just one question sir what are we planning to do with F-7pgs by 2015 when all of the modern air warfare will depend upon two things BVR and stealth.



when the JF-17 numbers go beyond 150, the F-7PGs will be retired!

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## fatman17

hasnain0099 said:


> Mirages and PGs will be nomore once thunder is inducted.however mirrages will be replaced at last after PGs.the reason for PAF to be looking at two seater Thuder seems to be a supportive arguments as two seaters are considered better for dedicated missions and strike rolls but till 2015 i think thunder wouldhave replaced both considering the production speed



i guess u know more than the PAF, as the numbers I have quoted are from the new PAF book!

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## IceCold

fatman17 said:


> i guess u know more than the PAF, as the numbers I have quoted are from the new PAF book!



Sir is the new book available in the local book stores if not how can one find a copy of it?


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## Arsalan

araz said:


> marey Bhai
> Be realistic. In the current economic down turn where it will take another 2-3 yrs for the developed nations to turn themselves around, it will take an inefficient pakistan even longer. In these circumstances, where do you think the money to chenge platforms is going to come from? The chances are that we will be seeing a fair amount of our current inventary still in use by 2019.and that will include Mirages, and even A5s.
> Araz
> Araz


totally agree!
let alone the economic condition ir i dont think PAF will be thinking on these line even with money in pocket! i mean even if we have oney it wont be there to throw away like the gulf, middle east and saudia!
JF17 are here to stay, if you have money you beter turn it into a ture 4.5 generation plane rather then going shoping for new platforms!
for me JF17 is the future and i dont want to look for another one in such a short time!

i agree with your point!

regards!


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## DANGER-ZONE

enjoy few awsom wallpapers of f16.
it could be posted earlier,not sure about it.but resolution of these picturs r mmmmaahhh....graet

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## HASANITALIA

danger-zone said:


> enjoy few awsom wallpapers of f16.
> it could be posted earlier,not sure about it.but resolution of these picturs r mmmmaahhh....graet



2 and 3 pic the flag on tail cant see well is a pic o photo shop nice...


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## Arsalan

danger-zone said:


> enjoy few awsom wallpapers of f16.
> it could be posted earlier,not sure about it.but resolution of these picturs r mmmmaahhh....graet



hmm. great pics but i will love to see Fc20 flying from our bases, that will surely make a better wallpaper with the F16 just losing a bit of there charm after all the sanctions and advancements rest of the planes have made!!

anyway thanks for the pics!
regards!


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## DANGER-ZONE

HASANITALIA said:


> 2 and 3 pic the flag on tail cant see well is a pic o photo shop nice...



no!
these r the aircrafts deliverd to pakistan in 2008,if u see those pix of delivered aircraft,u will see the same serial numbers and flag painted in this way.
see in this pic u will finde sn-618 which is in the pic i posted earlier.


those big picturs dat i posted earlier,r the aircraft at any usaf base.
i hope this work
regards


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## Arsalan

yes they are the ones deleivered to PAF!

if they have to be F16s it would have been better if they were blk52s! i mean getting blk 15 in 2008,,, does not go along with me!!

regards!


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## a1b2c145

What about mine??????????????????


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## DANGER-ZONE

arsalanaslam123 said:


> yes they are the ones deleivered to PAF!
> 
> if they have to be F16s it would have been better if they were blk52s! i mean getting blk 15 in 2008,,, does not go along with me!!
> 
> regards!



u r rit man.


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## MastanKhan

arsalanaslam123 said:


> yes they are the ones deleivered to PAF!
> 
> if they have to be F16s it would have been better if they were blk52s! i mean getting blk 15 in 2008,,, does not go along with me!!
> 
> regards!





Hi,

With the shortage of high quality aircraft that we have---any kind of F 16 is a welcome sight----these F 16's are better than anything that we have in our arsenal.

Guys---you need to understand something---JF 17 is not the MAGIC WAND as people want to perceive it to be---it is just another airplane going through its trial runs, but at a warp speed.

The psoition that we are in---we will be continuosly assessing the ability of this plane even after the first sqdrn has been inducted---just take it like this----the first bacth of 48--50 planes are being inducted due to a certain neccessity---which is shortage---their roles and capabilities will be assessed while on duty on a monthly basis.

F 16's blk 15's---we know what they can do---we can use them with confidence to the best of their abilities---we know where we stand with that plane.

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## Arsalan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> With the shortage of high quality aircraft that we have---any kind of F 16 is a welcome sight----these F 16's are better than anything that we have in our arsenal.
> 
> Guys---you need to understand something---JF 17 is not the MAGIC WAND as people want to perceive it to be---it is just another airplane going through its trial runs, but at a warp speed.
> 
> The psoition that we are in---we will be continuosly assessing the ability of this plane even after the first sqdrn has been inducted---just take it like this----the first bacth of 48--50 planes are being inducted due to a certain neccessity---which is shortage---their roles and capabilities will be assessed while on duty on a monthly basis.
> 
> F 16's blk 15's---we know what they can do---we can use them with confidence to the best of their abilities---we know where we stand with that plane.




agreed!
atleat i am not in a league of people taking the JF to be something of a wonder, i admit that it is just a fighter plane and nothing much can be said about surity unles we got some 80-100 birds flying. we all know that JF17 has been undertaking weapon integration and evaluation for past few months, we have also heared from concerned authorities to be it a really capabale aircraft, the test pilots are also talking highly about the system but this do not mean thatwe have made a F22 out of it!!
but sir saying all this, i guess you will also agree that it is going to be our main asset flying around in years to come. through upgradation planes are there along with the planes potential to under take them! PAF surely will want to make something as good as modren 4 generation planes out of the JF17. at the moment it is doing fine but will go to a different class as the time passes. at the moment the main issue is of time. PAF seems to be of intention to produce the planes at a rapid pace to replace its ageing fleet of old planes. once we have them in good numbers and having good amount of flying hours on them, it surely will be changed for something better.
moreover, without doubting the potentials of F16 but there lack of BVR engagements make them a second choce. though MLU and STAR upgrades may be looked as a potential leap forward but still this does not denies the importance of JF17 inductions. they surely are better then anything we operate currently, and, by the time we get our F16 fleet upgraded, the JF17 wil also be better then these F16 (upgraded)
i think you will agree wiht this point!!

regards!


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## DANGER-ZONE

new pix people NEW PIX

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## SQ8

An interesting thing was whispered into my year a few days ago by someone who has a need to know and should know since He is in the organization in question and is involved. I felt the need to confirm it by another anonymous source .
According to the someone we have already received a few Blk52's!!. To my immediate retort that he is referring to the new B-15's the reply was negative and affirmative about the Blk 52. I further inquired then why has there been no news, no announcement.. no Sighting!!. To which he so succinctly put it as it not being the best time to announce everything since some things should be best kept secret. 
While I still take this with a pinch of salt even though the whisperer in question is quite senior and highly placed. It could be intentional misinformation...
still.. had me scratching my head for a while..


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## nightrider_saulat

*in the first mix formation pic the center f-16 is of USAF*


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## SBD-3

santro said:


> An interesting thing was whispered into my year a few days ago by someone who has a need to know and should know since He is in the organization in question and is involved. I felt the need to confirm it by another anonymous source .
> According to the someone we have already received a few Blk52's!!. To my immediate retort that he is referring to the new B-15's the reply was negative and affirmative about the Blk 52. I further inquired then why has there been no news, no announcement.. no Sighting!!. To which he so succinctly put it as it not being the best time to announce everything since some things should be best kept secret.
> While I still take this with a pinch of salt even though the whisperer in question is quite senior and highly placed. It could be intentional misinformation...
> still.. had me scratching my head for a while..



well you never know whats up.I also witness a lot of things being indirectly involved but keeping quiet is what I resort to


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## fatman17

danger-zone said:


> new pix people NEW PIX



1st pic is around march-08 when USAF F-16s visited Sargodha and the other pics are from Indus Viper Excercise between PAF and TuAF

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## fatman17

^ ......or anatolian eagle!


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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> ^ ......or anatolian eagle!



the terrain looks like Pakistani


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## hj786

santro said:


> An interesting thing was whispered into my year a few days ago by someone who has a need to know and should know since He is in the organization in question and is involved. I felt the need to confirm it by another anonymous source .
> According to the someone we have already received a few Blk52's!!. To my immediate retort that he is referring to the new B-15's the reply was negative and affirmative about the Blk 52. I further inquired then why has there been no news, no announcement.. no Sighting!!. To which he so succinctly put it as it not being the best time to announce everything since some things should be best kept secret.
> While I still take this with a pinch of salt even though the whisperer in question is quite senior and highly placed. It could be intentional misinformation...
> still.. had me scratching my head for a while..


If this is true... WTF? They won't even tell us which freaking fighters they are operating, what else are they keeping quiet about? 

Are they still operating those ex-Ukraine MiG-29s as aggressors, or have they been returned?


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## SQ8

You're asking the wrong guy.. the only info I usually stumble upon is by sheer luck in a group conversation or if a question pops into my mind amongst discussions with people involved in the defense sector(usually the topmost man or middle guy) which I happen to meet casually due to relations or else. Otherwise.. I'm generally not into being the nosy guy when it comes to defense related queries.


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## hj786

santro said:


> You're asking the wrong guy.. the only info I usually stumble upon is by sheer luck in a group conversation or if a question pops into my mind amongst discussions with people involved in the defense sector(usually the topmost man or middle guy) which I happen to meet casually due to relations or else. Otherwise.. I'm generally not into being the nosy guy when it comes to defense related queries.



It was a rhetorical question brother.  Thanks for sharing your info with us.


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## Imran Khan

first pic is new for me other all from anatolian eagle!


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## Arsalan

nothing confirmed about the Blk52,, the decesion was made pending uptill 2010 by *US Congres*.
i guess Santro the case you pointed to was more of a rumor!

anyway thankyou
regards!


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## nightrider_saulat

*what is the exact figure of f-16 which have in our inventory till today*


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## Skywalker

nightrider_saulat said:


> *what is the exact figure of f-16 which have in our inventory till today*



The known latest figure is 45. Rest only Almighty knows.


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## HK-47

forgive me for asking these questions but I am an amateur when it comes to air forces in spite of the fact I am a Raptor fan.

How many combat roles are there in an Air force and what roles will be filled by the F-16s and the JF-17s??


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## hack

santro said:


> You're asking the wrong guy.. the only info I usually stumble upon is by sheer luck in a group conversation or if a question pops into my mind amongst discussions with people involved in the defense sector(usually the topmost man or middle guy) which I happen to meet casually due to relations or else. Otherwise.. I'm generally not into being the nosy guy when it comes to defense related queries.



America cannot transfer F-16's to Pakistan without Congressional approval. So there is like zero chance of F-16's being transferred to Pakistan by the American military.It does not work that way.


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## TOPGUN

hack said:


> America cannot transfer F-16's to Pakistan without Congressional approval. So there is like zero chance of F-16's being transferred to Pakistan by the American military.It does not work that way.



Wat about the recent transfer the american GOV provided i belive 4
f-16's where did that happen from ? surely wasn't magic!  but yes so to say they do have to go through congress but it doesn't mean it hasn't happen or wont happen again!


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## hack

TOPGUN said:


> Wat about the recent transfer the american GOV provided i belive 4
> f-16's where did that happen from ? surely wasn't magic!  but yes so to say they do have to go through congress but it doesn't mean it hasn't happen or wont happen again!



Did not say it won't happen but there will be no secret transfer as been hinted here...it does not work that way in the US.


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## TOPGUN

hack said:


> Did not say it won't happen but there will be no secret transfer as been hinted here...it does not work that way in the US.



As far as iam following there was never a any talk about a secret transfer ! and as far the way things happen in the US iam very well aware of it as iam American my self born raised as much as iam with my Pakistani roots !


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

hack said:


> America cannot transfer F-16's to Pakistan without Congressional approval. So there is like zero chance of F-16's being transferred to Pakistan by the American military.It does not work that way.



For the sake of argument, hasn't Congress already approved the F-16 sale?


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## fatman17

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> For the sake of argument, hasn't Congress already approved the F-16 sale?



yes it has!


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## fatman17

chill out guys - the 18 F-16s are coming - the deal is approved by congress!

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## LiberalPakistani

US is a bad enemy but a worst friend indeed we should not look forward to get more F-16s from US they keep delaying it cost us money and we risk our National Security US has keep us crying about these F-16s i am really glad that we have JF-17 now we should rather proceed in more development of fighter Jets projects with France,UK,Russa and China.PAF's current inventory is weak in terms of technology although its 50/50 depends on the pilot and the machine our F-16 are from the 80s so Mirages and F-7s we should look forward replacing them with SU27,J-10 and JF-17 because the world is changing very quickly and i find Pakistan in big big mess


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Pak army has already showed serious commitment and application in the swat valley and waziristan to the surprise of many---.

Over the years the army has been telling the taliban not to provoke them and not to corner them where they have to strike back in force.

The taliban were looking at the un-committed u s army in afghanistan in small numbers---they were clueless as to what the result would be when a 100 thousand strong millitary moves into your area----now theye are learing very fast what a 100k pak troops can do to them and their cause----and still the pak army has been too kind to the ttp.

For that reason---it would be next to impossible for the u s congress to delay the delivery of the F16--52---unless india can pull a rabbit out of the hat---the blk 52's will be landing pretty soon.

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## nollvllad

*Pakistan needs a big amount of f 16 falcons . just turkish airfoce they have almost 250... i guess we have below 50...*


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## SBD-3

i think we had 36 before US falcons now i think it should be about 55-60


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## hack

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> For the sake of argument, hasn't Congress already approved the F-16 sale?



Not the final approval..they will take it up only in 2010.So there will be no F16 transfer till then.


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## Munir

June 2010 to be exactly...


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## SQ8

hack said:


> Did not say it won't happen but there will be no secret transfer as been hinted here...it does not work that way in the US.



I took it with a fistful of salt as well..Its not like the US delivered Equipment to Israel in 73 without congressional approval.


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## Arsalan

AgNoStIc MuSliM said:


> For the sake of argument, hasn't Congress already approved the F-16 sale?





> originally posted by *FATMAN*
> yes it has


well sir i am sorry but this is not the case. the US congress have delayed the debate on topic uptill 2010. many quote it as the deleivery date being delated to 2010 the matter will be re-discussed in congree in 2010!!
so we cannot be sure that US congress have approved the deal once and for all!

regards!


----------



## Arsalan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pak army has already showed serious commitment and application in the swat valley and waziristan to the surprise of many---.
> 
> Over the years the army has been telling the taliban not to provoke them and not to corner them where they have to strike back in force.
> 
> The taliban were looking at the un-committed u s army in afghanistan in small numbers---they were clueless as to what the result would be when a 100 thousand strong millitary moves into your area----now theye are learing very fast what a 100k pak troops can do to them and their cause----and still the pak army has been too kind to the ttp.
> 
> For that reason---it would be next to impossible for the u s congress to delay the delivery of the F16--52---unless india can pull a rabbit out of the hat---the blk 52's will be landing pretty soon.



this is a nce analysis and as some other members have also pointed that the transfer is not yet authorized by US congress and the matter will be taken up in congree in mid 2010. if the deal is approved then we will seen the palnes with us by end of 2012!

i hope this clears the situation and give you an idea why so many people are so much worried about this deal!
i mean if they can delay the deal set to be made in 2007 to 2010 then it mat face further delas and this wont bring us any good!
to hell with the falcon if they come by the time when we are flying matured FC20 and our enemy flying F18zz.
however i am not saying that the deal *will be delayed* for sure. i hope this never happens and everything go along smoothly!

regards!


----------



## fatman17

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well sir i am sorry but this is not the case. the US congress have delayed the debate on topic uptill 2010. many quote it as the deleivery date being delated to 2010 the matter will be re-discussed in congree in 2010!!
> so we cannot be sure that US congress have approved the deal once and for all!
> 
> regards!



not true - the issue was transferring funds allocated for cobra upgrades to F-16 upgrades - and finally those funds have been released - kindly pls do your home-work! the planes are on the assembly-line for pete's sake - if the deal was not approved, the work would not have started.

its all posted on the forum - why are we creating this hysteria without providing any real proof / link - just because someone who lives in the US thinks he knows more than what we know - come on!

meanwhile, as mastan khan has indicated, much has changed!

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## mean_bird

hack said:


> Not the final approval..they will take it up only in 2010.So there will be no F16 transfer till then.





arsalanaslam123 said:


> well sir i am sorry but this is not the case. the US congress have delayed the debate on topic uptill 2010. many quote it as the deleivery date being delated to 2010 the matter will be re-discussed in congree in 2010!!
> so we cannot be sure that US congress have approved the deal once and for all!
> 
> regards!



And who told you that? I have posted every little detail about the F-16s on this forum yet we have people believe whatever they want. Please do your homework before spreading rumors.


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## Manticore

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pak army has already showed serious commitment and application in the swat valley and waziristan to the surprise of many---.
> 
> Over the years the army has been telling the taliban not to provoke them and not to corner them where they have to strike back in force.
> 
> The taliban were looking at the un-committed u s army in afghanistan in small numbers---they were clueless as to what the result would be when a 100 thousand strong millitary moves into your area----now theye are learing very fast what a 100k pak troops can do to them and their cause----and still the pak army has been too kind to the ttp.
> 
> For that reason---it would be next to impossible for the u s congress to delay the delivery of the F16--52---unless india can pull a rabbit out of the hat---the blk 52's will be landing pretty soon.



sir after a long time ive seen some optimistic comments from your side.

..not that i disagree with other comments..

the blk52 comming home, brought a smile on my face

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## DANGER-ZONE

THEY ARE COMMING ,THEY R COMMING OYEAH OYEAH OOO YEAH YEAH YEAH.......  thats really gud newsss
but in which year sir FAT MAN...


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## Arsalan

by 2010-2011!
i will be great addition if they arrive..
18 blk 52 with some 45 odd blk15 MLU will add enable PAF to match IAF to some extent!

regards!


----------



## ironman

This is an updated article to an earlier posted one. 

*PAF F-16s Being Upgraded ​*
Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc (TAI) recently succeeded in bagging a US$75 million combat aircraft modernisation contract from Pakistan under which a total of 42 Lockheed Martin-built F-16A/Bs belonging to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will be upgraded at TAIs facilities in 46 months starting from October 2010. The Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) regarding the start of work on the PAF F-16 Modernisation Programme was signed between TAI and the PAF during the IDEAS Defence Exhibition in September 2006 in Karachi, Pakistan. Being invited to the international bid for the PAFs F-16 Modernisation Programme, TAI, among other European competitors, was announced as the main contractor of the programme following the final evaluation by PAF authorities in July 2008. Following contractual negotiations, which started in 2009 between TAI and Pakistani authorities, and the subsequent mutual agreement, the contract was signed between TAI and Pakistans Ministry of Defence Production on June 29 at a ceremony held in Rawalpindi. In 2006, as a result of an earlier bidding process, TAI, which had signed an agreement with the Royal Jordanian Air Force for the modernisation of its F-16A/Bs, had successfully completed the programme with the delivery of the last aircraft last April.

The PAF presently operates 46 F-16A/Bs of which 32 remain from the original 40 aircraft that Pakistan bought in the early 1980s. Since 2005, the USAF has transferred 14 Excess Defense Article (EDA) F-16A/Bs to Pakistan. The current Pakistan F-16 procurement programme is composed of three Letters of Offer and Acceptance (LOA). The first LOA providing for the production of eighteen F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft is underway: four aircraft will be ready in June 2010; four aircraft in August 2010; five aircraft in October 2010; four aircraft in Dec 2010; and, one aircraft in December 2011. The second LOA provides for munitions and includes: five hundred Raytheon AIM-120C-5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM); seven hundred and fifty Mark 84 2,000lb General Purpose bombs; seven hundred BLU-109 2,000lb Penetrator bombs; 500 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) tail kits; 1,600 Enhanced Guided Bomb Unit (EGBU) kits; and assorted bomb fuzes and support equipment. These weapons will be available for delivery to Pakistan beginning in June 2010. The third LOA provides for the Mid-Life Update (MLU) of their current fleet of 46 aircraft: four of these aircraft are currently in Fort Worth undergoing Trial Verification Installation, which is part of the mid-life upgrade (MLU) programme. Under the MLU LOA, Pakistan is procuring Falcon STAR structural upgrade kits for the 32 original F-16A/B aircraft and 35 MLU avionics upgrade kits for the current fleet (including three of the recently transferred EDA aircraft). There is an option on the contract to procure 11 additional MLU avionics upgrade kits for the remaining eleven aircraft. Pakistan has not yet exercised this option, but plans to do so at a future date.

The Falcon STAR structural upgrade is very similar to that provided to other F-16A/B customers. *Falcon STAR replaces critical structural components in the F-16 required to return the A/B airframes to a structural life of 8,000 spectrum hours*. Falcon STAR is thus required to keep the original 32 PAF F-16A/Bs airworthy. The MLU avionics upgrade kits are being designed to provide the PAFs F-16A/B Block 15s with many of the same capabilities as the new Block 52 F-16s that the PAF is procuring. The MLU kit replaces most of the 1980s avionics in the Block 15s with newer, advanced avionics systems from the Block 52 F-16s. The MLU upgrade kits will include: *Northrop Grumman APG-68(V)9 radar*; *Embedded GPS/INS (EGI)*; *Link-16 data link*; *APX-113 Advanced Identify Friend or Foe (AIFF)*; *glass cockpit with colour moving map display*; *ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) pod*; *Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) cockpit and external lighting*; *Sniper Advanced Targetting Pod*; *Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS)*; *Reconnaissance Pod capability*; *improved avionics systems*; *JDAM capability*; *EGBU capability*; *AIM-120 AMRAAM capability*; and *AGM-84L Harpoon Block 2 capability*. While many of the avionics systems and capabilities are common with the new Block 52 F-16s and the MLU, some significant differences remain between the MLU F-16 Block 15s and the new PAF F-16 Block 52s: *there are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time; there are no engine improvements;* and, *there are no improvements to payload capacity*. Overall, the MLU programme will extend the service life of Pakistans original F-16 aircraft and very significantly increase the capability of the PAF to conduct close air support and nighttime precision attack missions. Regarding programme status, the first four F-16 MLU aircraft are undergoing work in Fort Worth, Texas now. The USAFs schedule for delivery of these aircraft is December 2011.

Last Updated ( Monday, 17 August 2009 )

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## fhassan

I like you ironman, you seem to be a rather fair and unbiased chap.

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## Sargodhian_Eagle

I think only a few numbers will be upgraded in Turkey remains will be upgraded in Kamra or at Mushaf Base Sargodha


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## Munir

It is indeed that most will be done at PAC by Turkish engineers... We have not enough manpower and we did not want them to send one by one to USA...

Anyone able to get the schedule? Cause we are done with Block52 in 2010 (1 somewhere end 2011) but I have no clue how they will do the MLU. We should get the few sended to USA first... Then the few to Turkey... And then work in PAC...


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## fatman17

Munir said:


> It is indeed that most will be done at PAC by Turkish engineers... We have not enough manpower and we did not want them to send one by one to USA...
> 
> Anyone able to get the schedule? Cause we are done with Block52 in 2010 (1 somewhere end 2011) but I have no clue how they will do the MLU. We should get the few sended to USA first... Then the few to Turkey... And then work in PAC...



the turkish MLU starts Oct-2010 and take 42 months to complete for all 42 a/c (now 41) - 4 are in USA. total 45.


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## wild peace

ironman said:


> This is an updated article to an earlier posted one.
> 
> *PAF F-16s Being Upgraded ​* The first LOA providing for the production of eighteen F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft is underway: four aircraft will be ready in June 2010; four aircraft in August 2010; five aircraft in October 2010; four aircraft in Dec 2010; and, one aircraft in December 2011.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Why this one has this much delay?
> 
> Is it with any special thing?
> .


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## jnd3x0

thats nice,can any one tell me y we call 'odd f 16' wot that dis mean?


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## wild peace

fhassan said:


> I like you ironman, you seem to be a rather fair and unbiased chap.



Yes Ironman he is right .This thing is good for not only this but every forum.


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## Arsalan

jnd3x0 said:


> thats nice,can any one tell me y we call 'odd f 16' wot that dis mean?



well friend, can you please explain what are you exactly asking about??
where is it written as "odd F16"??

waiting!

regards!


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## fanna4paf

first 4 f-16 in june 2010 i think its late now? if they are deliver in march and then we can easly see them at 23 march.

and guyz plz tell used f-16 a/ b when we receive 14 has delivered but when more is deliver?


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## Arsalan

hanzo said:


> OSjgOcFdI9Y[/media] - Mahathir - Bombing Singapore
> ===========================
> you all realy excited like little kids. you not gona get source code which will make these F-16 like sitting duck.



this comes to account when they will be fighting the US..
i dont see it happenong any tome soon!!
but yes, this is a set back of the deal, it will be great if *Sir. MuradK *or some one else shed some light on the point that how will PAF be going deal this issue, we have alread been flying F16 so they might answer the problem!

regards!


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## dizzy heights

hanzo said:


> OSjgOcFdI9Y[/media] - Mahathir - Bombing Singapore
> ===========================
> you all realy excited like little kids. you not gona get source code which will make these F-16 like sitting duck.



This guy Mahathir really have a funny bone.

Hope the Malaysians get adequate parking fees for those beautiful birds at Lima.

Initialy US didn't provide them the AMRAAMs also with the F/A 18s, while they provided both Thailand and Singapore with it. But later they gave the AIM 120C AMRAAM, around 20 odd missiles for their 8 F/A 18s.


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## Patriot

hanzo said:


> OSjgOcFdI9Y[/media] - Mahathir - Bombing Singapore
> ===========================
> you all realy excited like little kids. you not gona get source code which will make these F-16 like sitting duck.


Jealousy at best..Reading your previous posts i am not surprised..We fought all wars with US weapons..that's right.It is only danger if we're Arabs or fighting US.Unfortunately for INdia we are not Arabs so we know how to use weapons!


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## Silent observer

i was surfing through the net and found this picture of f16e block 60 (on wikipedia), which was treat to watch. i know may be someone has posted it before in this thread but i could not resis to post it again, it is such a beauty. is it really block 60 and whther our new f16 block 50/52 look similar as this plane/ if not what is the difference in shape and capabilities compare to this plane. i am not a pilot and may be i am asking a naive question but please if any member can elaborate a little i will appreciate it.

regards

sincerely


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## greatsequence

The difference between block 50 and 60 is mentioned in the wikipedia article.


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## Patriot

F16 block 60 is heaver then 52 has a advanced AESA Radar instead of pulse dooper radar which is used in Block 52.It also has a more powerful engine as the jet is quite heavy due to aesa radar and other equipment so it needs powerful engine.It is the most advanced F-16 variant today.F16 Block52 is pretty similar to Block 60 except Radar, Engine and probably ECM Equipment.

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## Sapper

In the picture ... IRIST is visible ... i don't think block 52 have IRST on them

Also this F-16 seems to be carrying Mica ... haven't seen that on F16 either


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## TaimiKhan

Sapper said:


> In the picture ... IRIST is visible ... i don't think block 52 have IRST on them
> 
> Also this F-16 seems to be carrying Mica ... haven't seen that on F16 either



Not a MICA missile, its AIM-9 variant, and the other seems to be a Maverick Missile A2G.


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## Patriot

Sapper said:


> In the picture ... IRIST is visible ... i don't think block 52 have IRST on them
> 
> Also this F-16 seems to be carrying Mica ... haven't seen that on F16 either


You're correct. I guess UAE is using MICA so that in case if IAF develops ECM against Aim120 at least they can use MICA.There is only 3,000 pounds thrust difference between F16 Block 60 General Electric Engine and F16 Block52 Pratt and Whitney Engine but block60 is heaver then Block52.


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## Arsalan

Silent observer said:


> i was surfing through the net and found this picture of f16e block 60 (on wikipedia), which was treat to watch. i know may be someone has posted it before in this thread but i could not resis to post it again, it is such a beauty. is it really block 60 and whther our new f16 block 50/52 look similar as this plane/ if not what is the difference in shape and capabilities compare to this plane. i am not a pilot and may be i am asking a naive question but please if any member can elaborate a little i will appreciate it.
> 
> regards
> 
> sincerely



well a think much talked about but worth a review,
the blk 60 is:
equipped with an AESA radar, infact it is the onll F16 variant to be equipped with one,
the AESA increase the weight and need more powerfull engine to run thus the eingie for the blk 60 is powerfull but it do not add much to other performance specs as the additional power is used to support the radar and excessive weight of the plane,
the large fuel tank assemble right on top of wing, attatched to fusealage is another difference,
the most advanced F16 version in terms of aviovics, a real beast!!
at the moment they are only flying in *UAE* colors as far as i remember,,

i hope these points help you,
regards!

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## Sapper

taimikhan said:


> Not a MICA missile, its AIM-9 variant, and the other seems to be a Maverick Missile A2G.



Yup ... looks like a Maverick ... my mistake


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## TaimiKhan

This is MICA Missile.


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## nightrider_saulat

*do you guys think that this bird can take out su-30mki*


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## Patriot

nightrider_saulat said:


> *do you guys think that this bird can take out su-30mki*


Absolutely.With smaller RCS, JHMCS and AIM120C5..It should be able to kick *** in close as well as bvr combat however our older F-16's are not so good at bvr.In fact they will be nice targets hope they get MLU soon.


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## TaimiKhan

nightrider_saulat said:


> *do you guys think that this bird can take out su-30mki*



In BVR mode, with AIM-120D AMRAAM it will kill the Su-30MKI. 

For a dog fight, Su-30MKI does has a chance but the latest Block 60 maneuverability isn't known.


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## TaimiKhan

Patriot said:


> Absolutely.With smaller RCS, JHMCS and AIM120C5..It should be able to kick *** in close as well as bvr combat however our older F-16's are not so good at bvr.In fact they will be nice targets hope they get MLU soon.



AIM-120D will do the kill, older versions can't match the R-77 range.


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## Patriot

Does not matter.You won't achieve a kill at max range.Keep in mind that at max range the bvr missile have a very low *** and ECM might as well screw the missile.Not to mention if its in afterburner the jet can get out of range quite quickly if missile is fired at max range.Still SU30mki is a very serious threat in close range combat.


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## Adios Amigo

arsalanaslam123 said:


> at the moment they are only flying in egyptian colors as far as i remember,,



nope not egyptian but in uaes colours.


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## Arsalan

adeos amigo said:


> nope not egyptian but in uaes colours.




my bad,,
i guess i was out of my mid while tying that..
anyhow i have changed it now,

thanks for correcting me!

regards!


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## SBD-3

Patriot said:


> You're correct. I guess UAE is using MICA so that in case if IAF develops ECM against Aim120 at least they can use MICA.There is only 3,000 pounds thrust difference between F16 Block 60 General Electric Engine and F16 Block52 Pratt and Whitney Engine but block60 is heaver then Block52.


yes because they are also using Black shaheen (a derivative of storm shadow CM).though these are the most advanced falcons (desert falcons i guess) but i think IDF suf'a's are equally capable


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## sameem

I thnk nw Pakistan should start the production of air craft inits own country ...............
and must not be depended on any other country


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## Patriot

It takes time man.Pakistan does not have the industrial base to build medium size fighter and such a advanced plane like F16..You just dont start and build such advanced plane at start.You've got to start somewhere.

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## SBD-3

Patriot said:


> It takes time man.Pakistan does not have the industrial base to build medium size fighter and such a advanced plane like F16..You just dont start and build such advanced plane at start.You've got to start somewhere.



but sir we have the example of turkey they are manufacturing Falcons


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## Patriot

Assembling not building..all parts come from USA.


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## Arsalan

well have you guys missed the week long debates about the start of production of JF17 at home or are you guys pointing to some thing i didnt understand!
i mean, we are making JF17 at home with some 50&#37; parts comming from china at the moment as it was a oint venture but the number with go down with PAC making more and more components at home a chines getting bust in FC20 and JXX projets,

no one can start from a F22 right away, JF17 is very good, rather far better then expectation for a start, a massive step in right direction!!

i hope you understand or make me understand if you were pointing to anything else!!

regards!


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## DANGER-ZONE

yarr im so confused about f16 inventories in PAF,can any one help with that.?
PAf already hav 45 birds since early 80s and 90s,now how much birds are Pakistan going to get,except 18 blk52.


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## Arsalan

so whats th big deal friend, you got all your numbers right!!
we are going to get 18 blk 52 and PAF will operate 45 older blk 15 that will under go MLU!
i hope you got it,

regards!

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## araz

hasnain0099 said:


> but sir we have the example of turkey they are manufacturing Falcons



Hasnain 
You cabnt be serious comparing Turkey with Pakistan TThe y are way waymore advanced brother.
Araz

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## TOPGUN

I think with the older 45 f-16's and the new 18 blk 52's inshallah we should stop going after the american's for anymore aircrafts as they will give us S_t or give as a crazy price for new ones if we even get to that part ! Although i love bird the most out of any other bird out there but we have to be realictic and logical we need to focous on thunders & fc-20's ! perhaps something else might come in play from somewhere else when the country is dong well! iam keeping my fingers crossed for the blk 52's lets hope for the best!

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## Arsalan

araz said:


> Hasnain
> You cabnt be serious comparing Turkey with Pakistan TThe y are way waymore advanced brother.
> Araz



moreover there strong european and american conections allow them to enjoy such feasts!
anyhow, as stated earlier, JF17is not bad at al for a start, the plane have all the potential to be taken to level of Blk52 F16 and even beyond!

regards!


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## Arsalan

TOPGUN said:


> I think with the older 45 f-16's and the new 18 blk 52's inshallah we should stop going after the american's for anymore aircrafts as they will give us S_t or give as a crazy price for new ones if we even get to that part !



there are alos no more pltforms that we can look forward to from the US, the F18 are not for PAF, and we will never get our hands onto the latest planes like F35 or whatever,
the F16 Blk52 seem to be the last fighter jet deal comming from US, atleast for quite some time from now! 

and
as a matter of fact, this came as a sigh of relief atleast for me 


regards!


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## DANGER-ZONE

arsalanaslam123 said:


> there are alos no more pltforms that we can look forward to from the US, the F18 are not for PAF, and we will never get our hands onto the latest planes like F35 or whatever,
> the F16 Blk52 seem to be the last fighter jet deal comming from US, atleast for quite some time from now!
> 
> and
> as a matter of fact, this came as a sigh of relief atleast for me
> 
> 
> regards!



ya me tooo  
but its not a big deal for these birds only 18 aircrafts and they hav 
took too much time to deliver those to PAF.

now we should focus on China,France and PAC to get aircrafts and weapons.America nomore wants good relations with us as he is ingaging strong relations to India.and i think it would also effect indo-russia relations.we can also go for russian weapons after indo-american relations.


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## DANGER-ZONE

TOPGUN said:


> I think with the older 45 f-16's and the new 18 blk 52's inshallah we should stop going after the american's for anymore aircrafts as they will give us S_t or give as a crazy price for new ones if we even get to that part ! Although i love bird the most out of any other bird out there but we have to be realictic and logical we need to focous on thunders & fc-20's ! *perhaps something else might come in play from somewhere else when the country is dong we*ll! iam keeping my fingers crossed for the blk 52's lets hope for the best!



maybe like RAFALE 
if our economy gets strong and get some mony in few years then we can go for these birds.


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## Patriot

danger-zone said:


> maybe like RAFALE
> if our economy gets strong and get some mony in few years then we can go for these birds.


Please don't dream.In fact just pray that you even get f16's.Our country is bankrupt.

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## Arsalan

danger-zone said:


> ya me tooo
> but its not a big deal for these birds only 18 aircrafts and they hav
> took too much time to deliver those to PAF.
> 
> now we should focus on China,France and PAC to get aircrafts and weapons.America nomore wants good relations with us as he is ingaging strong relations to India.and i think it would also effect indo-russia relations.we can also go for russian weapons after indo-american relations.



atleast for fighter planes that is what i think,
we can still get something good from them like some UAV and naval equipment or some ammunition for our planes, these deals will help us with our indegenious programmes and wont be of much harm even if sanctioned!!

regards!


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## DANGER-ZONE

arsalanaslam123 said:


> atleast for fighter planes that is what i think,
> we can still get something good from them like some UAV and naval equipment or some ammunition for our planes, these deals will help us with our indegenious programmes and wont be of much harm even if sanctioned!!
> 
> regards!



naaa...
if the news about the harpoon missiles and p3,is true then they will s*** up in every deal saying the same line 
"UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AFRAID THAT THESE WEAPONS WILL BE USED AGAINST INDIA,SO WE CANNOT ALLAOW PAKISTAN TO GET SUCH WEAPONS AS THE PEACE OF SOUTHASIA IS CONCERNED.HOWEVER INDIA CAN BUY ADVANCE WEAPONS,FOR ITS OWN DEFENCE PURPOSES"


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## arihant

Stealth said:


> USA AIRFORCE IS on ZEROPOISTION in front of me!
> 
> SO TODAY I CALLED MY COUNTRY IS THE REAL SUPERPOWER!!



Enough for ego...  Also care to explain in correct way.

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## Stealth

arihant said:


> Enough for ego...  Also care to explain in correct way.




Self Deleted


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## Sapper

Don't mind him dear,

He's got a bit carried away with rage. Its never a pretty sight to see a sane human losing his perspective.

But lately, how the political events are unfolding in Pakistan, rage is what everybody is left with.

Regards,
Sapper


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## Imran Khan

were is forums quailty man what kind of these posts looking like its BR of pakistan.


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## Arsalan

danger-zone said:


> naaa...
> if the news about the harpoon missiles and p3,is true then they will s*** up in every deal saying the same line
> "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AFRAID THAT THESE WEAPONS WILL BE USED AGAINST INDIA,SO WE CANNOT ALLAOW PAKISTAN TO GET SUCH WEAPONS AS THE PEACE OF SOUTHASIA IS CONCERNED.HOWEVER INDIA CAN BUY ADVANCE WEAPONS,FOR ITS OWN DEFENCE PURPOSES"



i mean to say that pakistan may keep on looking for military hardware from US other then fighter planes, the reason being the lucrative option of soft loans and US military assistnce aid option. whether US will give these equipment to us or not is another point of debate,

regards!


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## wild peace

Aslaam alakum ........i would like to say only one thing can u trust americans .well i dont think so. we can trust a dog but not USA we can trust a snake but not USA ,, americans has the betraying hobby to us,so how we can trust them now.I Don't understand


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## MastanKhan

wild peace said:


> Aslaam alakum ........i would like to say only one thing can u trust americans .well i dont think so. we can trust a dog but not USA we can trust a snake but not USA ,, americans has the betraying hobby to us,so how we can trust them now.I Don't understand





Sir,

About time the pakistanis learnt----it is not america that has a betraying habbit----it is pakistan that has a problem of being betrayed----falling into the same trap everytime and then blaming the others for our inconsistencies, puts us every single time in the same place where we were seen last.

How many times do we need to go throught he same process and end up with bitter feelings---our relationship with the u s peaks in the first 3---4 years---and after 6---8 years we are back to a divorce.

When we already know that beforehand getting into a relationship---then why not maximize your effort and get what you want in the first year to be delivered by the 3rd--4th year----rather than wait for 5 years and then start up the crying game one more time.

It is a shame that govt has let pakistan down one more time.

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## wild peace

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> About time the pakistanis learnt----it is not america that has a betraying habbit----it is pakistan that has a problem of being betrayed----falling into the same trap everytime and then blaming the others for our inconsistencies, puts us every single time in the same place where we were seen last.
> 
> How many times do we need to go throught he same process and end up with bitter feelings---our relationship with the u s peaks in the first 3---4 years---and after 6---8 years we are back to a divorce.
> 
> When we already know that beforehand getting into a relationship---then why not maximize your effort and get what you want in the first year to be delivered by the 3rd--4th year----rather than wait for 5 years and then start up the crying game one more time.
> 
> It is a shame that govt has let pakistan down one more time.



sir
You have really nice and cool head .Love you and your comments.Its really an honor to have you in this forum

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

You are all consciencious people over here---I don't know if there is any one pakistani here who doesnot have 'pakistan' imprinted and branded on their hearts---there is not a single soul here who doesnot want pakistan to be better---there is not a single pakistani soul here who is not pained at the hardships of our country.

If you are pained and you are concerned, then understand that the only way things can change is the way WE CAN CHANGE AND ADJUST OUR THINKINGS TO THE CHANGING ENVIRONMENT on the run. The world is moving ahead at a warp speed---you and I should not be left behind to pickup our pieces---why should we---are we less talented than anyone else---are we less capable than other people around us---I believe not---how about you---what do you guys think---.

If you think that you are as good or better than your next door neighbour---then, one way to prove that is to show it in reality---by our actions, thinking and our reactions. But if our actions are strikes and arson, if our thinking that everyone is after us and our reaction is toget mad and angry at others for what they deem to see fit----then there are bigger personal issues of identity facing us than the sanctions by the united states of america.

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## Sapper

Actually my assessment is that its our perspective that is "screwed up", and i mean seriously screwed up.

Whenever some religious news appears, we take it into Islamic perspective.
Whenever some regional news appears, we take it into anti-india, then anti america, then anti russia and blah blah perspective.

When are we going to learn to look at things from a neutral perspective. Things are happening ALL AROUND us ... if we don't take them from neutral perspective ... 99% of them are bound to appear against our cause.

USA is not against Pakistan, India is not against Pakistan ... they are in their OWN interest. They will do whats best for them. China is our friend as long as our goals are alligned. USA is with us for same reason ... against us for same ... and the sole reason being its own personal interest.

A dog is faithful till it gets food from its master ... and if we stop feeding it, it will find a new master. Its natural ... and this is how its supposed to be.

I don't mean to say that Right and Wrong don't exist, nor saying that principals of friendship and allegiance don't exist, just that personal survival comes first.

Pakistanis are too short sighted, too loose headed and too emotional ... we don't produce many philosophers of global respect because we cannot shed our narrow perspective to see things neutrally ... even our judges are biased ... our maulana's are biased ... even our family/bradary system is biased.

Last great philosopher was Iqbal ... and since then, we are living in DARKNESS.

Regards,
Sapper

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## Arsalan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are all consciencious people over here---I don't know if there is any one pakistani here who doesnot have 'pakistan' imprinted and branded on their hearts---there is not a single soul here who doesnot want pakistan to be better---there is not a single pakistani soul here who is not pained at the hardships of our country.
> 
> If you are pained and you are concerned, then understand that the only way things can change is the way WE CAN CHANGE AND ADJUST OUR THINKINGS TO THE CHANGING ENVIRONMENT on the run. The world is moving ahead at a warp speed---you and I should not be left behind to pickup our pieces---why should we---are we less talented than anyone else---are we less capable than other people around us---I believe not---how about you---what do you guys think---.
> 
> If you think that you are as good or better than your next door neighbour---then, one way to prove that is to show it in reality---by our actions, thinking and our reactions. But if our actions are strikes and arson, if our thinking that everyone is after us and our reaction is toget mad and angry at others for what they deem to see fit----then there are bigger personal issues of identity facing us than the sanctions by the united states of america.



right on spot,
sir i totally agree with you, if you keep on offering you head to your enemy it is not his fault to keep striking on it again and again,,
the relation between Pak-US ahve always been good weather friendship, or, if you can say, US ned based friendship. they are willing to give us there latest equipment when they are involved in the region. the Afghan-Soviet war is a classic example. US equipment were at our disposal and we even denied them to keep a check on whatare we getting and where are we spending it. 
now for the cries and pain of being on the wrong track for decades, i guess it is high time to switch them. Pakistan is slowly geting on the right track on self-empoermen in military field. we have a fighter that can be taken to a level of latest in the world, our tanks are already considered the best in the region and still we are upgrading them to keep up with the pace of military procurement of the region. we are thankful involved in UAV and UCAV tech and that too see to be comming from non-US and indegenious sources. the shipbuilding sector in also gaining experience with Agostas and F22p.
for no on i think we must say good bye to US systems. for me the F16 blk52 should be among the last deal with US, atleast for main-stay platform. we can still try to be involved in some low-profile yet leathal equipments but no mare ships, planes and tanks from them!!

it is the time to wake-up and keeping in mind the latest development in the region, it may well be our last cahnce to do so,,

regards!

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## PakShaheen79

Brothers! The last F-16 deal was forced to our throat and PAF did good to get rid of bulk of it. Initially plan was for 55-75 planes but due to Earth quake deal was limited to 18 planes only. PAF did opted for F-16s just for weapons packages coming with it specially for AIM-120C with its 105 Km range.

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## Arsalan

yes, infact at that time i was very disappointed at cancelation of many planes but now the way things have turned i guess it was all for good,,

regards!


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## DANGER-ZONE

so what to do with the PAF money to eartquack?
Havent Pakistan got enough aid from out side for the relife of victums?
why they decrease the number of f16,wat we will do with 18 blk52,just 18?
where did all that money go? even the victums r not in good condition today?

these Qs are bugging me since i heard the news of decreasing f16s number.


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## Arsalan

well it was nutually agreed by PAF and GoUS to shift those funds to earthquake regibilitation programes. as per the conditions of people victimized by the destruction are concerned, it is just a propagande. i know the situation for myself being a regular visitor and all these claims that earthquake effecties have not been comforted are baseless. they are living in much better conditions and have much better faciliites then they used to fancy upon before the earthquake!!

regards!

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## DANGER-ZONE

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well it was nutually agreed by PAF and GoUS to shift those funds to earthquake regibilitation programes. as per the conditions of people victimized by the destruction are concerned, it is just a propagande. i know the situation for myself being a regular visitor and all these claims that earthquake effecties have not been comforted are baseless. they are living in much better conditions and have much better faciliites then they used to fancy upon before the earthquake!!
> 
> regards!



okzzzzzz
but is that seems funny to a big country,just 18 birds?
although we r geting MLU too but its somthing old and near to be grounded in USA.am i rite..?
it should be 36,18 is so small quantity for big country like PAK


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## wild peace

danger-zone said:


> okzzzzzz
> but is that seems funny to a big country,just 18 birds?
> although we r geting MLU too but its somthing old and near to be grounded in USA.am i rite..?
> it should be 36,18 is so small quantity for big country like PAK



History / The beginning
Reason for the Mid Life Update(MLU)


The first RDAF F-16B MLU, wearing the Check Six markings on its tail, on touchdown. (LMTAS photo)
http://www.f-16.net/modules/Gallery...ownloadItem&g2_itemId=16875&g2_serialNumber=2

When the F-16 entered service in 1979, it was expected that the aircraft would be replaced by a successor in 1999. Due to several reasons, both economical and political, the F-16 will not be replaced by a successor (which is not yet available right now) and will not be phased-out until 2010. In order to maintain the same level of operational capabilities and operational effectiveness of existing aircraft over the next ten to twenty years in this world of ever increasing technology, an extensive modernization program was developed, that later became known as the Mid-Life Update or MLU.

The project started in 1989 with a two year study of the possibilities to upgrade the F-16. In May 1991, the development phase started, which continued until 1997.
Aircraft structural integrity program

The F-16s airframe has been subject to more heavy loads than was predicted in 1979. This resulted in several unpredicted hair cracks in some of the airframe's bulkheads. Before an aircraft can be offered for MLU modification, the current state of the airframe is examined in the extensive Aircraft Structural Integrity Program (PACER SLIP). In this modification program, all bulkheads of the aircraft will be examined and repaired (using the so called Cold Working method) if necessary. After PACER SLIP, the aircraft will be able to last at least another 5,000 flying hours and can complete its life expectancy of 30 years.

Note that hair cracks are not uncommon in aircraft design. To predict the acceptable number and type of cracks, the aircraft manufacturer used information that reflected the exact capabilities of the aircraft. The F-16 was designed as a light and highly maneuverable aircraft that could withstand 9G and last for a minimum of 8,000 flight hours. All data is recorded in a load spectrum that specifies the use of the aircraft (i.e. type of missions), aircraft load and predicted number of landings.
Participating countries

At first five countries participated in the Mid Life Update; the four EPAF (European Participating Forces) countries: Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands and Norway, as well as the United States. Each of the countries has one Lead The Fleet (LTF) F-16 at the Lockheed-Martin plant in Fort Worth, Texas, as a trial aircraft for the modification. At the start of the program, it was projected that the USAF would also convert about 223 A/B-models under the MLU program. With the ending of the Cold War however, this part of the program was finished and the US backed-out after the development program.

In 2001, Portugal announced that it too was considering upgrading its acquired with MLU. The Portuguese program started at the end of 2002, with the first aircraft (LTF) being delivered in early 2003. First 16 A-models and 4 B-models of the Peace Atlantis II program will be upgraded. Followed later on by the other 20 F-16s.

TVI aircraft for the MLU program
BAF	F-16A Block 15R	80-3584	FA-93
RDAF	F-16B Block 1	78-0204	ET-204
RNLAF	F-16B Block 15B	80-3650	J-650
RNoAF	F-16A Block 10B	78-0299	299
USAF	F-16A Block 15A	80-0584	80584

LTF aircraft for the MLU program
BAF	F-16B Block 15AA	87-0001	FB-21
RDAF	F-16A Block 5	78-0177	E-177
RNLAF	F-16A Block 10B	78-0251	J-251
RNoAF	F-16B Block 10B	78-0306	306
PoAF	F-16A Block 15P	82-1017	15133

In total, 344 aircraft will be submitted to MLU (Portugal and possible future customers excluded):

Number of aircraft modified in the MLU program
BAF F-16A Block 10 - RNLAF F-16A Block 10 6
F-16B Block 10 - F-16B Block 10 4
F-16A Block 15 72 F-16A Block 15 107
F-16B Block 15 18 F-16B Block 15 20
RDAF F-16A Block 10 24 RNoAF F-16A Block 10 20
F-16B Block 10 5 F-16B Block 10 4
F-16A Block 15 24 F-16A Block 15 25
F-16B Block 15 8 F-16B Block 15 7

Each of the EPAF countries contribute to the MLU program :

* Belgium: SABCA Gosselies;
* Denmark: Depot at Aalborg;
* The Netherlands: Fokker Aircraft Services and the air force's DMVS depot at Woensdrecht;
* Norway: Depot at Kjeller. 

Each aircraft will take up to 2,500 man hours, which is roughly equal to 5 months.
Initial work

All five Test, Verification and Installation (TVI) aircraft are stripped to the airframe and re-assembled in a later stadium in order to perform all kinds of work, including the replacement of hundreds of wiring harnesses (the cockpit alone incorporates one hundred new wiring harnesses).

When the aircraft will be completely re-assembled, they will be transported to Edwards Air Force Base in order to perform flight tests. After these flights, the Dutch and Norwegian aircraft will moved to Leeuwarden Air Base for further flight tests. One of the tests include testing of the new fire control radar system under European weather conditions. In a later stadium, the Belgian TVI aircraft follows. At that time, the software tests will commence.
Is it worth all the effort and the money?

Because of the F-16s unpredicted heavier airframe load in the Royal Netherlands Air Force, the aircraft's airframe needs to be overhauled apart from the Mid Life Update to allow the airframe to complete 3,500 flight hours. Keeping the aircraft operational until its 5,000th flight hour make the costs involved in the airframe repair / overhaul affordable and acceptable, making expensive airframe "re-inspections" unnecessary. The costs of the airframe repair / overhaul only form a quarter of the costs involved in the Mid Life Update.

The costs involved in the ASIP maintenance program result in increased operational capabilities as well as an increased life expectancy for the F-16 aircraft. These costs are lower than the price of a new aircraft. After the F-16s Mid Life Update modernization program, the F-16 can compete again with the most advanced fighters of today's world. An increase of both technical and economical life expectancy justify the cost for the Mid Life Update program.

The air inlet structure of the Block 10 aircraft will be modified, due to the fact that the current inlet of Block 10 aircraft does not allow for the implementation of hard points to carry equipment such as the Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) pod.
Structure & Avionics / Avionics upgrade

Most of the avionics that will be installed during MLU is existing hardware that is modified for use in the F-16. The Modular Mission Computer however is designed especially for the F-16. This will undoubtedly be one of the most important computers of the F-16 once MLU is completed.
Modular Mission Computer

The most important item of the Mid Life Update package is the Texas Instruments Modular Mission Computer (MMC) which is the key to providing new capabilities such as sensors and weapons, improved pilot-vehicle interface and pilot aiding. Subcontractors are Terma, Nea Lindberg and Signaal. This computer consists of line-replaceable modules (LRMs) based upon several MIPSCO R3000 32-bit RISC microprocessors which will run the ADA high-order language. An object-oriented design will reduce the lead times for new software and will improve the software maintenance. Other features include multiplex bus modules, avionics display processor, display driver and power supplies. The MMC will be the key to driving towards fleetwide commonality of system modes and software.

It will replace three components, namely the computers currently in use for the Expanded Fire Control Computer (XFCC), the Head Up Display Electronics Unit (HUD EU or HUD symbol generator), and the Stores Management System's Expanded Central Interface Unit (XCIU). The MMC will take up 42&#37; less volume in the aircraft, weights 55% less and consumes 37% less electrical power. Of the 24 slots available in the computer, ten will be used for future growth.
Fire Control Radar

The Westinghouse AN/APX-66(V2) Fire Control Radar (FCR) will be equipped with an completely new signal data processor. It allows a track-while-scan mode for up to ten targets as well as a six-on-six AIM-120 AMRAAM capability. Other features include a 25% improvement in detection and tracking range, an enhanced Doppler Beam Sharpening mode (DBS), enhanced air-ground and ground mapping modes, a medium resolutions DNS, an enhanced ECCM, and a color display compatibility. The MLU kit and the receiver will also have an 40% improved reliability over previous versions.

Physical parameters :

* Volume : 3.43 cu. ft.
* Weight : 261.5 lb
* Power : 3285 V/A AC (Max), 155 Watts DC (Nominal)
* Cooling : 11.3 lb/min a 27degr. C

Advanced IFF

The Hazeltine APX-111(V1) Advanced Identification Friend-or-Foe system (AIFF) with increased range performance (100 Nm) will operate via four (rather striking) antennas mounted on the upper forward fuselage in front of the canopy. These "bird slicers", more formally known as Upper Interogator Fuselage Mounted Antenna (FMA) Array, will be the most noticeable exterior change of the Mid Life Update.

The benefits of this AIFF system will be the support for BVR weapons delivery in excess of Radar/Missile limits and the enhanced situational awareness which reduces the chance of a fratricide.
Cockpit displays and indicators
Wide Angle Conventional Head Up display

The new Wide Angle Conventional Head Up Display (WAC HUD) manufactured by GEC Marconi Avionics will increase readability and pilot comfort, offers a wider field of view than the current HUD and adds a raster capability and support for night operations. This HUD is also FLIR and EEGS compatible.
Multi-Function Display

The Multi-Function Display (MFD) set, manufactured by Honeywell, include two 10cm x 10cm (4in x 4in) color active matrix liquid crystal multi-function displays, which will replace the current single monochrome Radar Electro/Optical Indicator Unit (REO-IU) and the Stores Control Panel (SCP) - the Stores Management System display. Both displays will increase the pilot's Situational Awareness drastically and will therefore contribute to increased flight safety.
Enhanced Upgraded Programmable Display Generator

An Enhanced Upgraded Programmable Display Generator (EUPDG), manufactured by Honeywell and Nea Lindberg in Denmark, will support the two color MFD's, allowing the pilot to set up to twelve display programs. One of them includes a color Horizontal Situation Display, which will be, provide the pilot with a God's eye view of the tactical situation. Inside is a 20MHz, 32-bit Intel 80960 Display Processor and a 256K battery-backed RAM system memory. The color graphics controller is based on the T.I. TMS34020 Raster Graphics Chipset.
Audio/Video Recorder

Also new is the Cockpit Television System manufactured by Telemetrics. The current Airborne Video Tape Recorder (AVTR) will be replaced by a TEAC color audio visual tape recorder. Head Up Display images as well as the images of the Multi Function Displays will be selectable for recording which is great for the debriefing of missions.

Helmet Mounted Display

A helmet-mounted display (HMD) is not part of the present configuration, but program director Philip Schwab believes that the European operators may decide to incorporate it if the program continues to progress well. Lockheed Martin and Honeywell have demonstrated the use of the HMD, combined with DTS, to allow the pilot to designate targets of opportunity simply by placing an HMD pipper on the target. EPAF and USAF are to pursue a five-nation HMD program, related to the introduction of the ASRAAM, the Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile, somewhere in the next century. Software and hardware modifications are already being studied by a cockpit review team and both space and wiring is already being accounted for in the current MLU.
http://www.f-16.net/modules/Gallery...ownloadItem&g2_itemId=16878&g2_serialNumber=2

On Eglin AFB, Honeywell and GEC Marconi experiment with a Helmet Mounted Cueing System (HMCS), combined with Raytheon's Box-Office agile missile. Honeywell and GEC-Marconi will start with the development and promotion of a Look-And-Shoot Helmet Mounted Cueing System for the F-16. This year, flight tests will take place in one of Lockheed-Martin's F-16B duals.

Side stick controller and throttle grip

The side stick controller (manufactured by Lear Astronics Corporation) and throttle grip are Block 50 unit models and will replace the current Block-10/15 stick grips. Both throttle and stick will be equipped with various controls, for an increased variety of functions, including VHF and UHF communications, IFF interrogation, Improved Data Modem operation, secondary flight controls (speed brakes), night vision cockpit blackout selection (NVIS Switch) and boresighting as well as slaving of missiles (now only selectable via the cues of the Stores Control Panel, which requires hands-off-throttle, head-down operation).
Modifications & Upgrades / Other features
Improved Data Modem

The Improved Data Modem (IDM), developed by the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory and built by Symetrics Inc., will be used to exchange data of various systems and targets with other aircraft (e.g. F-16, A-10, AH-64 or E-8 JSTARS) or with a ground station. Provisions have been made for the Link 16 Joint Tactical Information Distribution System (JTIDS).
Electronic Warfare Management System

An Electronic Warfare Management System (EWMS) developed by Terma Elektronik AS in Denmark provides centralized EW control for entire EW suite : management of threats (RWR), ANQ pods and advanced chaff/flare systems.
Miniaturized Airborne GPS Receiver

MAGR, Miniaturized Airborne GPS Receiver built by Rockwell-Collins Avionics & Communications Division, operating via an E-Systems antenna. It provides accurate position, velocity and time to support navigation, steering and weapon delivery. This system is smaller and lighter than the Block 40/50 receiver (RCVR 3A), consumes less power but delivers the same performance.
http://www.f-16.net/modules/Gallery...Item&g2_itemId=17821&g2_serialNumber=2Belgian Air Force Block 20 MLU. The block 20 can be distinguished by the birdslicers. These are part of the indiginous IFF system. (Luis Rosa photo)

Digital Terrain System

A Digital Terrain System (DTS), which uses the British Aerospace Systems & Equipments (BASE) Terprom system hosted on a Fairchild Defense memory module (128kb). The DTS provides precise navigation (in conjunction with the Rockwell/E-Systems GPS) and performs a number of safety and situational-awareness functions in low-level flight. This does not imply however, that the F-16 will be capable of automatic terrain following. The (former Block-10/-15) F-16 aircraft does not have a digital flight control system, so the system cannot be linked directly to the aircraft's Flight Control System. The pilot will be following the DTS advice manually by flying on the Flight Path Marker in the HUD. The system is as accurate as the accuracy of the maps being used, so this requires extremely accurate maps of the area.

Cockpit Layout

The cockpit layout will be the one of the F-16C Block-40/50. However, unlike the Block-40/50 aircraft, the MLU F-16s will be equipped with color displays. The cockpit lighing will be compatible with Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) and all visible surfaces will be painted black. The Night Vision goggles are deactivated in the HUD field-of-view to allow inhibited HUD viewing.
Provisions for recce pods

Up to now, if the F-16 were to carry reconnaissance pods, it had to be specially equipped for that purpose. A number of Dutch F-16s has been equipped to carry the Oudedelft pod. The MLU will see a standard recce interface installed for a number of reconnaissance pods.

Provisions for the Microwave Landing System

This system will be incorporated in the F-16 structure. The system will not be standard equipment on the F-16 and the particular countries have to by it seperately. Although not standard, the system will enhance flight safety by adding an MLS, which can guide the pilot through adverse weather conditions.
Recent developments
First flights of TVI aircraft

The first of five TVI aircraft for the MLU has made its first flight from Fort Worth on April 28, 1995. This USAF F-16C, #80-0584/ED, a Block 15 model, is destined for the 20 Fighter Wing at Shaw AFB. The second TVI aircraft made its first flight on May 11, 1995. This is a two-seat F-16B aircraft (#ET-204) of the Royal Danish Air Force. The first two of five TVI aircraft were transported to Edwards AFB on June 9th, 1995.
Start of initial development test & evaluation

In June 1995, the first flights took place in the MLU's DT&E phase on Edwards Air Force base, under the leadership of main contractor Lockheed-Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems and the United States Air Force. Each of the four EPAF countries supplied its own test pilot.
Following the DT&E phase

Both aircraft will be equipped with special measurement systems and will be used in the Development Test & Evaluation test program at Edwards AFB, which will last until October 1997. The three other TVI aircraft will be used in the DT&E phase until mid-1996.

Further tests will then take place at Leeuwarden Air Base, The Netherlands, which will denote the start of the Operational Test & Evaluation phase of MLU. At Leeuwarden, four more MLU aircraft will join the program, the so called Lead The Fleet (LTF) aircraft, the first F-16s that will be modified for each of the four EPAF countries.
DT&E software tapes 1 thru 4

The DT&E aircraft now use the MLU Tape-1 software. This version will be replaced in June 1996 by the more extensive Tape-2 at the beginning of the OT&E phase. Tape-4 denote the final version which will be used in the Mid Life Update of other aircraft to be modified.

Development of the M1-tape went through four phases of Flight Test Tapes (FTT). In each of these test tapes, other performances where met, including:

FTT-1 tape

* Radar performance evaluation

FTT-2 tape

* Weapon modes Air-Air and Air-Ground testing
* Navigation (INS and GPS)
* Basic MMC core functions integration

FTT-3 tape

* Datalink
* IFF interrogation
* Horizontal Situation Display
* DTS integration
* Cockpit color screen implementation

FTT-4 tape

* "Clean-up" tape (intended as correction to imperfections found in earlier phases)

After the M1 tape, the M2 tape followed in 2000, M3 tape in 2003, M4 tape in 2005 and M5 tape in 2009. All these tapes incorporate other features, including:

M2 tape

* Automatic Target Hand-off System (ATHS)
* Integration of anti radiation missile capability
* Integration of target designator system
* Further implementation of the Digital Terrain System

M3 tape

* Integration of the Link-16 system
* Integration of capability for GPS controlled weapons (GBU30/32)
* Introduction of Helmet Mounted/Cueing Sight
* Introduction of NVG compatible helmets

M4 tape

* Introduction of advanced short-range missile, as a replacement for the current Sidewinder (AIM-9X, IRIS-T)
* Integration of advanced Link-16 functions
* Integration of SNIPER targeting pods

M5 tape

* Integration of capability for stand-off weapons (AGM-154)
* Introduction of more advanced A/G weapons (EGBU-12)
* Introduction of advanced Stores Management System

Specifications

Engine: One Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 turbofan, rated at 14,590 lb.s.t. dry and 23,770 lb.s.t. with afterburning.

Maximum speed: Mach 2.05 at 40,000 feet. Service ceiling 55,000 feet. Maximum range 2400 miles. Initial climb rate 62,000 feet per minute.

Dimensions: wingspan 32 feet 9 1/2 inches, length 49 feet 3 1/2 inches, height 16 feet 8 1/2 inches, wing area 300 square feet.

Weights: 16,285 pounds empty, 25,281 pounds combat, 37,500 pounds maximum takeoff.

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## Arsalan

danger-zone said:


> okzzzzzz
> but is that seems funny to a big country,just 18 birds?
> although we r geting MLU too but its somthing old and near to be grounded in USA.am i rite..?
> it should be 36,18 is so small quantity for big country like PAK


well if we look at the past Pak-US relation, all i can come up with as a comment is:
the lesser we get, the better it is!! 

regards!


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## Stealth

danger-zone said:


> so what to do with the PAF money to eartquack?
> Havent Pakistan got enough aid from out side for the relife of victums?
> why they decrease the number of f16,wat we will do with 18 blk52,just 18?
> where did all that money go? even the victums r not in good condition today?
> 
> these Qs are bugging me since i heard the news of decreasing f16s number.



Well you think US sell us 70z F16s ?? in reality ? my dears 70s F16 for Pakistan just on a paper work. In reality i bet US never selll us. One of biggest reason is Cry baby on our left side! 

Regards,


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

No F 16 deal deal was pushed through our throat---the first time around the u s never wanted to sell us the plane---we begged---we cajoled---we threatend---.

After the 9/11---when the F 16 became available---we took our sweet time in evaluating evry other plane on the planet---knowing very well upfront as to what should have been bought the day after Collin Powell got agreement to use our bases---the order and delivery should have been fast tracked on priority basis and all deliveries handled within 3 years time frame at the most. The paf had 20 years of free time to analyze what kind of F 16 they needed with what kind of equipment.

If that time was not enoug---then the time after 9/11 and the time the u s seeked pakistan's help----pak millitary analysts should have realized that u s was coming back for another stint----they should have been ready and prepared for it in advance.

The Paf's casual behaviour cost pakistan the edge that it needed in air warfare---it is always the case---everytime you tell paf of their procurement failures---everytime they will try to hide their incompetence by saying ' it is the man behind the machine that matters '---the major reason of our hatred for the u s of a is due to the failures and incompetence of pak air force in making the right decision at the right time.

On one hand----india blames pakistan for all of its miseries----on the same tune---we pakistanis blame u s of a for all the miseries of paf. Look at the anger of pakistanis onthis board regarding the F 16's.

Now it is looking a gift horse in the mouth when we say that we don't need american weaponery---which means that the posters are not well versed in the matters of millitarty hardware and its workings---a weapons system is chosen due to its proven ability and capabilities---durability under stress of war and combat for years.

Most of the posters over here I see are less informed as to what it means---suddenly there is this belief that is pouring out from everywhere about totally new systems---completely un-proven systems that will suddenly change our strategic defencive posture to a more aggressive stance.

F 16 blk 52 is a must for paf---without that plane, paf is in trouble.

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## PakShaheen79

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> No F 16 deal deal was pushed through our throat---the first time around the u s never wanted to sell us the plane---we begged---we cajoled---we threatend---.
> 
> After the 9/11---when the F 16 became available---we took our sweet time in evaluating evry other plane on the planet---knowing very well upfront as to what should have been bought the day after Collin Powell got agreement to use our bases---the order and delivery should have been fast tracked on priority basis and all deliveries handled within 3 years time frame at the most. The paf had 20 years of free time to analyze what kind of F 16 they needed with what kind of equipment.
> 
> If that time was not enoug---then the time after 9/11 and the time the u s seeked pakistan's help----pak millitary analysts should have realized that u s was coming back for another stint----they should have been ready and prepared for it in advance.
> 
> The Paf's casual behaviour cost pakistan the edge that it needed in air warfare---it is always the case---everytime you tell paf of their procurement failures---everytime they will try to hide their incompetence by saying ' it is the man behind the machine that matters '---the major reason of our hatred for the u s of a is due to the failures and incompetence of pak air force in making the right decision at the right time.
> 
> On one hand----india blames pakistan for all of its miseries----on the same tune---we pakistanis blame u s of a for all the miseries of paf. Look at the anger of pakistanis onthis board regarding the F 16's.
> 
> Now it is looking a gift horse in the mouth when we say that we don't need american weaponery---which means that the posters are not well versed in the matters of millitarty hardware and its workings---a weapons system is chosen due to its proven ability and capabilities---durability under stress of war and combat for years.
> 
> Most of the posters over here I see are less informed as to what it means---suddenly there is this belief that is pouring out from everywhere about totally new systems---completely un-proven systems that will suddenly change our strategic defencive posture to a more aggressive stance.
> 
> F 16 blk 52 is a must for paf---without that plane, paf is in trouble.



Sir mastan

I just want to clear up that F-16 deal was just to safe jobs of US workers back at home and was not in love of PAF. US was never willing to sell as you mentioned in ur own post. I don't think Pakistan ever threaten US for any matter let alone this one and that is precise reason why US never found it difficult to do anything in Pakistan may it against will of Pakistani people. (like drone attacks) F-16 were not available till 2005 let alone after 9/11 and top on that actual problem is not F-16s actual problem is spares which US will never allow Pakistan to procure after getting its job done in Afghanistan. Still I am not sure if F-16Ms will enter PAF and i will only congratulate others once they are handed over to Pakistan and land in Pakistan. Real reason for this worry is rumors about Pakistan illegally modifying Harpoons and to me pretext of another episode of sanctions is in writing. 

"The Paf's casual behaviour cost pakistan the edge that it needed in air warfare" ... Now this sentence of your's is a mystery to me hope you will elaborate a little.

As far as failure in making right decision at right time i don't agree with this notion as well. In last two decades PAF never actually failed nation on any account. Kargil was an event where PAF was kept away by choice not by compulsion of PAF's condition. One can't write off the state of economics during 90s when PAF did try to get some new birds from France and every one here know who messed up that deal as well. PAF never worked for F-16 after realizing in late 90s that those are not coming hence opted for JF-17 (Final go ahead for Thunder was given in 1999). 

During all those years PAF was actually relying on Mirages and F-7s later on PGs. F-16 has severe shortage of spare and this is the nightmare which PAF don't want to repeat. PAF opted for ROSE upgrades and later on this decision proved good as it brought in valuable know how, ToT for some avionics like Girfo Radars, enhanced the capabilities of Mirages etc.Mirage 2000 were opted for PAF during mid 90s but time has proved that decision in late 90s was better one, in long run. 

Infact ' man behind the machine' does matter otherwise there was no way a F-16C was able to beat F-22 at least once in mock fights.


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## bones20

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> On one hand----india blames pakistan for all of its miseries


Dont want to derail your thread but let this be clear the one thing which India blames Pakistan is for sponsoring/harboring terrorism. This is now a universal consensus. Pakistan and terrorism have now become synonymous.

The other one being hindering our progress by creating issues in international arena - this is one is understandable though given the history and geo-politics.


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## PakShaheen79

bones20 said:


> Dont want to derail your thread but let this be clear the one thing which India blames Pakistan is for sponsoring/harboring terrorism. This is now a universal consensus. Pakistan and terrorism have now become synonymous.
> 
> The other one being hindering our progress by creating issues in international arena - this is one is understandable though given the history and geo-politics.



Hmm.. And what about all the crying over anything Pakistan get. As far as Pakistan and Terrorism being synonymous is concerned thanks god we are not India where things like Gujrat happens, Where minorities face Golden Temple and Babri Masjid and rape of women by Indian army personnel. Best of luck with your non violent India.

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## Arsalan

let us get back to the topic, everytime something nice is going on a indina will bounce up and derail the thread,,
we all know the true face of secular india. they have no minority right followed in there own country, let alone there proven interference in balochistan, tamils, NWFP and bangladesh..

regards!

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## DANGER-ZONE

PakShaheen79 said:


> Hmm.. And what about all the crying over anything Pakistan get. As far as Pakistan and Terrorism being synonymous is concerned thanks god we are not India where things like Gujrat happens, Where minorities face Golden Temple and Babri Masjid and rape of women by Indian army personnel. Best of luck with your non violent India.



"NA CHEED MALANGA NO" is a good qutation,said by someone els,is well fitted to Indian bros.if u do a little IN PIN SEAFTY PIN to them,they all will jump in and will fire there self destroying BLASTING MISSILES and make this thread smoky.
better stick to f-16s


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## DANGER-ZONE

wild peace said:


> History / The beginning
> Reason for the Mid Life Update(MLU)
> 
> 
> The first RDAF F-16B MLU, wearing the Check Six markings on its tail, on touchdown. (LMTAS photo)
> http://www.f-16.net/modules/Gallery...ownloadItem&g2_itemId=16875&g2_serialNumber=2
> 
> When the F-16 entered service in 1979, it was expected that the aircraft would be replaced by a successor in 1999. Due to several reasons, both economical and political, the F-16 will not be replaced by a successor (which is not yet available right now) and will not be phased-out until 2010. In order to maintain the same level of operational capabilities and operational effectiveness of existing aircraft over the next ten to twenty years in this world of ever increasing technology, an extensive modernization program was developed, that later became known as the Mid-Life Update or MLU.
> 
> The project started in 1989 with a two year study of the possibilities to upgrade the F-16. In May 1991, the development phase started, which continued until 1997.
> Aircraft structural integrity program
> 
> The F-16s airframe has been subject to more heavy loads than was predicted in 1979. This resulted in several unpredicted hair cracks in some of the airframe's bulkheads. Before an aircraft can be offered for MLU modification, the current state of the airframe is examined in the extensive Aircraft Structural Integrity Program (PACER SLIP). In this modification program, all bulkheads of the aircraft will be examined and repaired (using the so called Cold Working method) if necessary. After PACER SLIP, the aircraft will be able to last at least another 5,000 flying hours and can complete its life expectancy of 30 years.
> 
> Note that hair cracks are not uncommon in aircraft design. To predict the acceptable number and type of cracks, the aircraft manufacturer used information that reflected the exact capabilities of the aircraft. The F-16 was designed as a light and highly maneuverable aircraft that could withstand 9G and last for a minimum of 8,000 flight hours. All data is recorded in a load spectrum that specifies the use of the aircraft (i.e. type of missions), aircraft load and predicted number of landings.
> Participating countries
> 
> At first five countries participated in the Mid Life Update; the four EPAF (European Participating Forces) countries: Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands and Norway, as well as the United States. Each of the countries has one Lead The Fleet (LTF) F-16 at the Lockheed-Martin plant in Fort Worth, Texas, as a trial aircraft for the modification. At the start of the program, it was projected that the USAF would also convert about 223 A/B-models under the MLU program. With the ending of the Cold War however, this part of the program was finished and the US backed-out after the development program.
> 
> In 2001, Portugal announced that it too was considering upgrading its acquired with MLU. The Portuguese program started at the end of 2002, with the first aircraft (LTF) being delivered in early 2003. First 16 A-models and 4 B-models of the Peace Atlantis II program will be upgraded. Followed later on by the other 20 F-16s.
> 
> TVI aircraft for the MLU program
> BAF	F-16A Block 15R	80-3584	FA-93
> RDAF	F-16B Block 1	78-0204	ET-204
> RNLAF	F-16B Block 15B	80-3650	J-650
> RNoAF	F-16A Block 10B	78-0299	299
> USAF	F-16A Block 15A	80-0584	80584
> 
> LTF aircraft for the MLU program
> BAF	F-16B Block 15AA	87-0001	FB-21
> RDAF	F-16A Block 5	78-0177	E-177
> RNLAF	F-16A Block 10B	78-0251	J-251
> RNoAF	F-16B Block 10B	78-0306	306
> PoAF	F-16A Block 15P	82-1017	15133
> 
> In total, 344 aircraft will be submitted to MLU (Portugal and possible future customers excluded):
> 
> Number of aircraft modified in the MLU program
> BAF F-16A Block 10 - RNLAF F-16A Block 10 6
> F-16B Block 10 - F-16B Block 10 4
> F-16A Block 15 72 F-16A Block 15 107
> F-16B Block 15 18 F-16B Block 15 20
> RDAF F-16A Block 10 24 RNoAF F-16A Block 10 20
> F-16B Block 10 5 F-16B Block 10 4
> F-16A Block 15 24 F-16A Block 15 25
> F-16B Block 15 8 F-16B Block 15 7
> 
> Each of the EPAF countries contribute to the MLU program :
> 
> * Belgium: SABCA Gosselies;
> * Denmark: Depot at Aalborg;
> * The Netherlands: Fokker Aircraft Services and the air force's DMVS depot at Woensdrecht;
> * Norway: Depot at Kjeller.
> 
> Each aircraft will take up to 2,500 man hours, which is roughly equal to 5 months.
> Initial work
> 
> All five Test, Verification and Installation (TVI) aircraft are stripped to the airframe and re-assembled in a later stadium in order to perform all kinds of work, including the replacement of hundreds of wiring harnesses (the cockpit alone incorporates one hundred new wiring harnesses).
> 
> When the aircraft will be completely re-assembled, they will be transported to Edwards Air Force Base in order to perform flight tests. After these flights, the Dutch and Norwegian aircraft will moved to Leeuwarden Air Base for further flight tests. One of the tests include testing of the new fire control radar system under European weather conditions. In a later stadium, the Belgian TVI aircraft follows. At that time, the software tests will commence.
> Is it worth all the effort and the money?
> 
> Because of the F-16s unpredicted heavier airframe load in the Royal Netherlands Air Force, the aircraft's airframe needs to be overhauled apart from the Mid Life Update to allow the airframe to complete 3,500 flight hours. Keeping the aircraft operational until its 5,000th flight hour make the costs involved in the airframe repair / overhaul affordable and acceptable, making expensive airframe "re-inspections" unnecessary. The costs of the airframe repair / overhaul only form a quarter of the costs involved in the Mid Life Update.
> 
> The costs involved in the ASIP maintenance program result in increased operational capabilities as well as an increased life expectancy for the F-16 aircraft. These costs are lower than the price of a new aircraft. After the F-16s Mid Life Update modernization program, the F-16 can compete again with the most advanced fighters of today's world. An increase of both technical and economical life expectancy justify the cost for the Mid Life Update program.
> 
> The air inlet structure of the Block 10 aircraft will be modified, due to the fact that the current inlet of Block 10 aircraft does not allow for the implementation of hard points to carry equipment such as the Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) pod.
> Structure & Avionics / Avionics upgrade
> 
> Most of the avionics that will be installed during MLU is existing hardware that is modified for use in the F-16. The Modular Mission Computer however is designed especially for the F-16. This will undoubtedly be one of the most important computers of the F-16 once MLU is completed.
> Modular Mission Computer
> 
> The most important item of the Mid Life Update package is the Texas Instruments Modular Mission Computer (MMC) which is the key to providing new capabilities such as sensors and weapons, improved pilot-vehicle interface and pilot aiding. Subcontractors are Terma, Nea Lindberg and Signaal. This computer consists of line-replaceable modules (LRMs) based upon several MIPSCO R3000 32-bit RISC microprocessors which will run the ADA high-order language. An object-oriented design will reduce the lead times for new software and will improve the software maintenance. Other features include multiplex bus modules, avionics display processor, display driver and power supplies. The MMC will be the key to driving towards fleetwide commonality of system modes and software.
> 
> It will replace three components, namely the computers currently in use for the Expanded Fire Control Computer (XFCC), the Head Up Display Electronics Unit (HUD EU or HUD symbol generator), and the Stores Management System's Expanded Central Interface Unit (XCIU). The MMC will take up 42% less volume in the aircraft, weights 55% less and consumes 37% less electrical power. Of the 24 slots available in the computer, ten will be used for future growth.
> Fire Control Radar
> 
> The Westinghouse AN/APX-66(V2) Fire Control Radar (FCR) will be equipped with an completely new signal data processor. It allows a track-while-scan mode for up to ten targets as well as a six-on-six AIM-120 AMRAAM capability. Other features include a 25% improvement in detection and tracking range, an enhanced Doppler Beam Sharpening mode (DBS), enhanced air-ground and ground mapping modes, a medium resolutions DNS, an enhanced ECCM, and a color display compatibility. The MLU kit and the receiver will also have an 40% improved reliability over previous versions.
> 
> Physical parameters :
> 
> * Volume : 3.43 cu. ft.
> * Weight : 261.5 lb
> * Power : 3285 V/A AC (Max), 155 Watts DC (Nominal)
> * Cooling : 11.3 lb/min a 27degr. C
> 
> Advanced IFF
> 
> The Hazeltine APX-111(V1) Advanced Identification Friend-or-Foe system (AIFF) with increased range performance (100 Nm) will operate via four (rather striking) antennas mounted on the upper forward fuselage in front of the canopy. These "bird slicers", more formally known as Upper Interogator Fuselage Mounted Antenna (FMA) Array, will be the most noticeable exterior change of the Mid Life Update.
> 
> The benefits of this AIFF system will be the support for BVR weapons delivery in excess of Radar/Missile limits and the enhanced situational awareness which reduces the chance of a fratricide.
> Cockpit displays and indicators
> Wide Angle Conventional Head Up display
> 
> The new Wide Angle Conventional Head Up Display (WAC HUD) manufactured by GEC Marconi Avionics will increase readability and pilot comfort, offers a wider field of view than the current HUD and adds a raster capability and support for night operations. This HUD is also FLIR and EEGS compatible.
> Multi-Function Display
> 
> The Multi-Function Display (MFD) set, manufactured by Honeywell, include two 10cm x 10cm (4in x 4in) color active matrix liquid crystal multi-function displays, which will replace the current single monochrome Radar Electro/Optical Indicator Unit (REO-IU) and the Stores Control Panel (SCP) - the Stores Management System display. Both displays will increase the pilot's Situational Awareness drastically and will therefore contribute to increased flight safety.
> Enhanced Upgraded Programmable Display Generator
> 
> An Enhanced Upgraded Programmable Display Generator (EUPDG), manufactured by Honeywell and Nea Lindberg in Denmark, will support the two color MFD's, allowing the pilot to set up to twelve display programs. One of them includes a color Horizontal Situation Display, which will be, provide the pilot with a God's eye view of the tactical situation. Inside is a 20MHz, 32-bit Intel 80960 Display Processor and a 256K battery-backed RAM system memory. The color graphics controller is based on the T.I. TMS34020 Raster Graphics Chipset.
> Audio/Video Recorder
> 
> Also new is the Cockpit Television System manufactured by Telemetrics. The current Airborne Video Tape Recorder (AVTR) will be replaced by a TEAC color audio visual tape recorder. Head Up Display images as well as the images of the Multi Function Displays will be selectable for recording which is great for the debriefing of missions.
> 
> Helmet Mounted Display
> 
> A helmet-mounted display (HMD) is not part of the present configuration, but program director Philip Schwab believes that the European operators may decide to incorporate it if the program continues to progress well. Lockheed Martin and Honeywell have demonstrated the use of the HMD, combined with DTS, to allow the pilot to designate targets of opportunity simply by placing an HMD pipper on the target. EPAF and USAF are to pursue a five-nation HMD program, related to the introduction of the ASRAAM, the Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile, somewhere in the next century. Software and hardware modifications are already being studied by a cockpit review team and both space and wiring is already being accounted for in the current MLU.
> http://www.f-16.net/modules/Gallery...ownloadItem&g2_itemId=16878&g2_serialNumber=2
> 
> On Eglin AFB, Honeywell and GEC Marconi experiment with a Helmet Mounted Cueing System (HMCS), combined with Raytheon's Box-Office agile missile. Honeywell and GEC-Marconi will start with the development and promotion of a Look-And-Shoot Helmet Mounted Cueing System for the F-16. This year, flight tests will take place in one of Lockheed-Martin's F-16B duals.
> 
> Side stick controller and throttle grip
> 
> The side stick controller (manufactured by Lear Astronics Corporation) and throttle grip are Block 50 unit models and will replace the current Block-10/15 stick grips. Both throttle and stick will be equipped with various controls, for an increased variety of functions, including VHF and UHF communications, IFF interrogation, Improved Data Modem operation, secondary flight controls (speed brakes), night vision cockpit blackout selection (NVIS Switch) and boresighting as well as slaving of missiles (now only selectable via the cues of the Stores Control Panel, which requires hands-off-throttle, head-down operation).
> Modifications & Upgrades / Other features
> Improved Data Modem
> 
> The Improved Data Modem (IDM), developed by the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory and built by Symetrics Inc., will be used to exchange data of various systems and targets with other aircraft (e.g. F-16, A-10, AH-64 or E-8 JSTARS) or with a ground station. Provisions have been made for the Link 16 Joint Tactical Information Distribution System (JTIDS).
> Electronic Warfare Management System
> 
> An Electronic Warfare Management System (EWMS) developed by Terma Elektronik AS in Denmark provides centralized EW control for entire EW suite : management of threats (RWR), ANQ pods and advanced chaff/flare systems.
> Miniaturized Airborne GPS Receiver
> 
> MAGR, Miniaturized Airborne GPS Receiver built by Rockwell-Collins Avionics & Communications Division, operating via an E-Systems antenna. It provides accurate position, velocity and time to support navigation, steering and weapon delivery. This system is smaller and lighter than the Block 40/50 receiver (RCVR 3A), consumes less power but delivers the same performance.
> http://www.f-16.net/modules/Gallery...Item&g2_itemId=17821&g2_serialNumber=2Belgian Air Force Block 20 MLU. The block 20 can be distinguished by the birdslicers. These are part of the indiginous IFF system. (Luis Rosa photo)
> 
> Digital Terrain System
> 
> A Digital Terrain System (DTS), which uses the British Aerospace Systems & Equipments (BASE) Terprom system hosted on a Fairchild Defense memory module (128kb). The DTS provides precise navigation (in conjunction with the Rockwell/E-Systems GPS) and performs a number of safety and situational-awareness functions in low-level flight. This does not imply however, that the F-16 will be capable of automatic terrain following. The (former Block-10/-15) F-16 aircraft does not have a digital flight control system, so the system cannot be linked directly to the aircraft's Flight Control System. The pilot will be following the DTS advice manually by flying on the Flight Path Marker in the HUD. The system is as accurate as the accuracy of the maps being used, so this requires extremely accurate maps of the area.
> 
> Cockpit Layout
> 
> The cockpit layout will be the one of the F-16C Block-40/50. However, unlike the Block-40/50 aircraft, the MLU F-16s will be equipped with color displays. The cockpit lighing will be compatible with Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) and all visible surfaces will be painted black. The Night Vision goggles are deactivated in the HUD field-of-view to allow inhibited HUD viewing.
> Provisions for recce pods
> 
> Up to now, if the F-16 were to carry reconnaissance pods, it had to be specially equipped for that purpose. A number of Dutch F-16s has been equipped to carry the Oudedelft pod. The MLU will see a standard recce interface installed for a number of reconnaissance pods.
> 
> Provisions for the Microwave Landing System
> 
> This system will be incorporated in the F-16 structure. The system will not be standard equipment on the F-16 and the particular countries have to by it seperately. Although not standard, the system will enhance flight safety by adding an MLS, which can guide the pilot through adverse weather conditions.
> Recent developments
> First flights of TVI aircraft
> 
> The first of five TVI aircraft for the MLU has made its first flight from Fort Worth on April 28, 1995. This USAF F-16C, #80-0584/ED, a Block 15 model, is destined for the 20 Fighter Wing at Shaw AFB. The second TVI aircraft made its first flight on May 11, 1995. This is a two-seat F-16B aircraft (#ET-204) of the Royal Danish Air Force. The first two of five TVI aircraft were transported to Edwards AFB on June 9th, 1995.
> Start of initial development test & evaluation
> 
> In June 1995, the first flights took place in the MLU's DT&E phase on Edwards Air Force base, under the leadership of main contractor Lockheed-Martin Tactical Aircraft Systems and the United States Air Force. Each of the four EPAF countries supplied its own test pilot.
> Following the DT&E phase
> 
> Both aircraft will be equipped with special measurement systems and will be used in the Development Test & Evaluation test program at Edwards AFB, which will last until October 1997. The three other TVI aircraft will be used in the DT&E phase until mid-1996.
> 
> Further tests will then take place at Leeuwarden Air Base, The Netherlands, which will denote the start of the Operational Test & Evaluation phase of MLU. At Leeuwarden, four more MLU aircraft will join the program, the so called Lead The Fleet (LTF) aircraft, the first F-16s that will be modified for each of the four EPAF countries.
> DT&E software tapes 1 thru 4
> 
> The DT&E aircraft now use the MLU Tape-1 software. This version will be replaced in June 1996 by the more extensive Tape-2 at the beginning of the OT&E phase. Tape-4 denote the final version which will be used in the Mid Life Update of other aircraft to be modified.
> 
> Development of the M1-tape went through four phases of Flight Test Tapes (FTT). In each of these test tapes, other performances where met, including:
> 
> FTT-1 tape
> 
> * Radar performance evaluation
> 
> FTT-2 tape
> 
> * Weapon modes Air-Air and Air-Ground testing
> * Navigation (INS and GPS)
> * Basic MMC core functions integration
> 
> FTT-3 tape
> 
> * Datalink
> * IFF interrogation
> * Horizontal Situation Display
> * DTS integration
> * Cockpit color screen implementation
> 
> FTT-4 tape
> 
> * "Clean-up" tape (intended as correction to imperfections found in earlier phases)
> 
> After the M1 tape, the M2 tape followed in 2000, M3 tape in 2003, M4 tape in 2005 and M5 tape in 2009. All these tapes incorporate other features, including:
> 
> M2 tape
> 
> * Automatic Target Hand-off System (ATHS)
> * Integration of anti radiation missile capability
> * Integration of target designator system
> * Further implementation of the Digital Terrain System
> 
> M3 tape
> 
> * Integration of the Link-16 system
> * Integration of capability for GPS controlled weapons (GBU30/32)
> * Introduction of Helmet Mounted/Cueing Sight
> * Introduction of NVG compatible helmets
> 
> M4 tape
> 
> * Introduction of advanced short-range missile, as a replacement for the current Sidewinder (AIM-9X, IRIS-T)
> * Integration of advanced Link-16 functions
> * Integration of SNIPER targeting pods
> 
> M5 tape
> 
> * Integration of capability for stand-off weapons (AGM-154)
> * Introduction of more advanced A/G weapons (EGBU-12)
> * Introduction of advanced Stores Management System
> 
> Specifications
> 
> Engine: One Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 turbofan, rated at 14,590 lb.s.t. dry and 23,770 lb.s.t. with afterburning.
> 
> Maximum speed: Mach 2.05 at 40,000 feet. Service ceiling 55,000 feet. Maximum range 2400 miles. Initial climb rate 62,000 feet per minute.
> 
> Dimensions: wingspan 32 feet 9 1/2 inches, length 49 feet 3 1/2 inches, height 16 feet 8 1/2 inches, wing area 300 square feet.
> 
> Weights: 16,285 pounds empty, 25,281 pounds combat, 37,500 pounds maximum takeoff.



well besides this,dont u think that we are too late in getting MLU.
or it would be the same story like mirage3/5,that we will use it to edge of its death,whereas at that time stealth tecs and advance 4+ fighters would be used world wide.


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## MastanKhan

Infact ' man behind the machine' does matter otherwise there was no way a F-16C was able to beat F-22 at least once in mock fights.[/QUOTE]


Hi,

I believe after 20 or 30 F 16's were shot down when one of them sneaked throughto takle out the F 22.

So let us see---SU 30---not as potent as F 22----current F 16's in Paf----same difference in proportion of capability---let me give paf the benefit of the doubt----let us reduce the numbers to half----let us say 10:1 in favour of SU 30's----10 pak F 16's lost to everyone of the SU 30's.

Sir----just to shoot down 10 su 30's----current paf would loose a 100 planes----if not a hunderd---then let us say 80 planes---which is about 30 % of paf inventory---all high end.

Sir----with 30 % total losses---of its aircraft---any air force gets to its death throes----they are finished----caput----gone. But then we only have 48 of the F 16's---now please remember I am not talking about the blk 52's or the MLU's. Even 5:1 in favour of SU 30's is a killer deal---man machine or anything else.


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## PAFAce

MastanKhan said:


> So let us see---SU 30---not as potent as F 22----current F 16's in Paf----same difference in proportion of capability---let me give paf the benefit of the doubt----let us reduce the numbers to half----let us say 10:1 in favour of SU 30's----10 pak F 16's lost to everyone of the SU 30's.
> 
> Sir----just to shoot down 10 su 30's----current paf would loose a 100 planes----if not a hunderd---then let us say 80 planes---which is about 30 &#37; of paf inventory---all high end.
> 
> Sir----with 30 % total losses---of its aircraft---any air force gets to its death throes----they are finished----caput----gone. But then we only have 48 of the F 16's---now please remember I am not talking about the blk 52's or the MLU's. Even 5:1 in favour of SU 30's is a killer deal---man machine or anything else.


Sure is a worrying picture. In a war of attrition, the advantage is always with the larger force. But, we must also consider that an Indo-Pak war will not be based on attrition. The next war is predicted to be sudden, quick, violent. Speed, flexibility and agility will be key players, and these are factors that always benefit the smaller unit. This most likely means that, in the next war, not every aircraft will see combat, particularly on the Indian side. Of course, the fact that we do not maintain a no-first-use policy on our nuclear arsenal will ensure an attrition war never develops.

Now, that's just general talk. Let's get more specific. The IAF has a significant BVR advantage over the PAF. Both the Soviets and the Americans put great emphasis on BVR development late into the Cold War, along with other long-range detection and engagement technologies, and that development still continues. But, there is one very significant difference between those types of potential conflicts and ours. Pakistan and India are neighbors, our land meets. 

According to aviation experts, including the air-combat author Mike Spick, capabilities like ob-board Beyond Visual Range detection, supercruise, loiter-time etc. lose much of their advantages in a scenario where the two opposing forces are close together. Other aspects, both real and abstract, such as rate of climb of interceptors, operational readiness, logistics etc. become that much more important. So, there is most definitely a silver lining. We still stand a good shot at nullifying their advantages in the air.

Again, if we consider close combat, Indian Thrust Vectoring Su-30MKIs will be formidable, and so will their Mig-29s. But in that scenario as well, we must consider that the F-16 still remains the greatest conventional dogfighter of all time. This certainly doesn't mean our F-16s will go looking for a fair one-on-one fight with the Su-30s, they will try to tip the scales as much as possible in their favour, potentially by "jumping" IAF aircraft once they've crossed into Pakistani airspace. Strategy comes into play, but again, the sky is not completely black.

See, I'm not trying to argue against your point, it remains valid. I also agree with it, to a very large degree. I am just trying to say that the situation is not as dire as you portray. There is still method behind the madness. Of course, in about half-a-decade, we'll have some tech at least comparable to what the Indians will have at the time, so much of our debate will become obsolete. As you've said, Block 52s are a need of the hour for us, a top-notch proven and reliable system that we're already very familiar with. 18 Block 52s will make a dent, but if the option is still viable, we should definitely go for the 18 more. But for the time being, things aren't ideal, but they could be worse.

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## blain2

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I believe after 20 or 30 F 16's were shot down when one of them sneaked throughto takle out the F 22.
> 
> So let us see---SU 30---not as potent as F 22----current F 16's in Paf----same difference in proportion of capability---let me give paf the benefit of the doubt----let us reduce the numbers to half----let us say 10:1 in favour of SU 30's----10 pak F 16's lost to everyone of the SU 30's.
> 
> Sir----just to shoot down 10 su 30's----current paf would loose a 100 planes----if not a hunderd---then let us say 80 planes---which is about 30 &#37; of paf inventory---all high end.
> 
> Sir----with 30 % total losses---of its aircraft---any air force gets to its death throes----they are finished----caput----gone. But then we only have 48 of the F 16's---now please remember I am not talking about the blk 52's or the MLU's. Even 5:1 in favour of SU 30's is a killer deal---man machine or anything else.



Why is the ratio 10:1 or even 5:1? On what basis? I can tell you one thing. When F-16 MATV was flown and evaluated, they found out that on the basis of maneuverability it was better than the other conventional aircraft, but when the odds were two against one, the improvements of the TVC were of no significant benefit.

These were the days when the adversary used to fly without any HMS or high offboresight AAMs. Gone are those days. The TVC equipped aircraft will fly against Pakistani aircraft that will allow the F-16 pilots (as an example) to cue their weapons against the MKI at angles from positions that would impact the ability of the MKI to do many of the things it showcases. 

I doubt that we will see mix-ups as was the norm in the "Mig Alley" of the Korean war era where sometimes 20-30 aircraft used to mix up in dog fighting. Air combat in the future will be more dispersed, at longer ranges where early detection and more effective employment of assets will curtail quite a bit of this close in combat. 

On its own, the F-16 holds certain inherent advantages if equipped appropriately with the proper sensors and weapons. If Pakistan does the same thing with the JF-17 and the Western avionics and weapons package then one will find that the use of the MKI by the other side would be hampered by many considerations, at least some of which I have tried to highlight.

The points about attrition are valid. However no Pakistani defence planner would allow the aircraft to be employed in such a manner which would result in the MKIs having a field day attaining 10:1 ratios. Beyond all the hype, the reality of war comes to fore and this reality is that PAF is neither the Iraqi Air Force and neither are the Indians the USAF. Think about the challenges that PAF had to face flying state of the art F-16s against the Soviet and Afghan airforce aircraft. It was never an easy kill despite the fact that F-16s were at the pinnacle of performance compared to anything the Afghans flew. So PAF's tactics and training doctrine are at par with those of the folks across the border. I do not see such one-sided outcome in any case (as long as the current AFDP bears fruition).

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## wild peace

MastanKhan said:


> Infact ' man behind the machine' does matter otherwise there was no way a F-16C was able to beat F-22 at least once in mock fights.




Hi,

I believe after 20 or 30 F 16's were shot down when one of them sneaked throughto takle out the F 22.

So let us see---SU 30---not as potent as F 22----current F 16's in Paf----same difference in proportion of capability---let me give paf the benefit of the doubt----let us reduce the numbers to half----let us say 10:1 in favour of SU 30's----10 pak F 16's lost to everyone of the SU 30's.

Sir----just to shoot down 10 su 30's----current paf would loose a 100 planes----if not a hunderd---then let us say 80 planes---which is about 30 &#37; of paf inventory---all high end.

Sir----with 30 % total losses---of its aircraft---any air force gets to its death throes----they are finished----caput----gone. But then we only have 48 of the F 16's---now please remember I am not talking about the blk 52's or the MLU's. Even 5:1 in favour of SU 30's is a killer deal---man machine or anything else.[/QUOTE]

Sir 
with all due respect You are talking about PAF .So u mean they all sit down under the black or blue sky and enjoy the dog fight or competition between both....no sir you are wrong here fighting specs are not measured like this.Their will be better plan to counter greater specs.

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## PakShaheen79

> Hi,
> 
> I believe after 20 or 30 F 16's were shot down when one of them sneaked throughto takle out the F 22.
> 
> So let us see---SU 30---not as potent as F 22----current F 16's in Paf----same difference in proportion of capability---let me give paf the benefit of the doubt----let us reduce the numbers to half----let us say 10:1 in favour of SU 30's----10 pak F 16's lost to everyone of the SU 30's.
> 
> Sir----just to shoot down 10 su 30's----current paf would loose a 100 planes----if not a hunderd---then let us say 80 planes---which is about 30 &#37; of paf inventory---all high end.
> 
> Sir----with 30 % total losses---of its aircraft---any air force gets to its death throes----they are finished----caput----gone. But then we only have 48 of the F 16's---now please remember I am not talking about the blk 52's or the MLU's. Even 5:1 in favour of SU 30's is a killer deal---man machine or anything else.



I can't remember how many F-16s were there in that particular mock fight but what i definitely know is they were no where 20 to 30.

Again the scenario u depict is only possible when pilots setting in PAF F-16s don't bother to do anything other than wait for being shooted down by MKIs.

I think we both remember recent event when one of IAF,s MKI pic was shown to US convoy by Kiyani and was told to tell Indian to remain in limit. If MKI are that invincible how come an ages old F-16 was able to lock that? Any Idea.... I believe it was again "Man Behind Machine" that matters.

Now i Agree with your point of lower number and IAF's share size in future when they were fielding MRCAs and MKIs but again PAF will be doing same with JF-17s,FC-20s and F-16s. I also agree that F-16M are need of hour but my point is this is not F-16s which are problematic this is Yankees who would be pain in the neck after they come to know that PAF depends heavily on them for its large F-16s fleet.

People here always got worry about ONLY 18 new F-16s I wounder how easily they forget current fleet of 40+ F-16s which would also got on par with current models through MLUs.

Hope this will clarify my point a bit more.

Regards


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## fatman17

*5 Sep 1989 
Pakistan orders 60 F-16s (Peace Gate IV).*

Black Day in Pak-US Relations!

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

First of all---su 30 pilot would be stupid to get in close combat range---he will launch at 30---35miles the first and second missile, then acquire another target and launch two, then acquire the 3rd and laucnh two and then acquire the 4th and launch two shots---and then scoot---the last shot would be close to 20 miles. The kill ratio of the russian missiles at that range is pretty good. Now that the su 30 has unloaded---it will turn and run home to fight another day.

What can the paf pilot do---he is not going to hide---he is not going to run---he will lay down his life---so that you and I can look good and say---hey, look at our pilot---he gave away his life---but he didnot run---bravo---. 

Let us be techincal over here---forget our compassions for the flag for a moment---it is time for hard analysis---with a cool mind---and the time of battle is today---now---we fight a war with the weapons systems that were in our arsenal yesterday---not what we will be getting later on tomorrow.


Now coming to the F 22 and F 16 kill---actuall it was either 35 f 16 killed or 50 killed before one of them got a shot at the F 22.

Many a times I have explained---the the su 30 in the sights of f 16 was a set up---paf and pakistan were lucky that our pilot had the discipline to hold the trigger---and the controller the common sense to keep incharge.


I will tell you what the black day truly was----it was the first time we ordered the F 16's----paf had the option of getting the mirage 2000's or the f 16---I am talking about the first purchase---the mirage m2k was an equally competent fighter aircraft---but paf failed to analyze the future and strategic implications of the purchase---.

India was in the bad books of the u s of a---so it would never get the f 16's in the 80's---the only other high tech high maneuverable plane that was available was the M2k that india could get its hands upon. 

If pakistan would have chosen the M2k right from day one and rejected the F 16 for strategical reasons---india had nowhere to go but to stick with the russians---m2k would have done everything that the paf wanted it to do---with the purchase of m2k---paf would have sealed off any purchase to india either from france or the u s---u s was already sealed. India's high tech purchase would have been neutered----but we left the flanks open and the whole army passed through.

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## PakShaheen79

> Hi,
> 
> First of all---su 30 pilot would be stupid to get in close combat range---he will launch at 30---35miles the first and second missile, then acquire another target and launch two, then acquire the 3rd and laucnh two and then acquire the 4th and launch two shots---and then scoot---the last shot would be close to 20 miles. The kill ratio of the russian missiles at that range is pretty good. Now that the su 30 has unloaded---it will turn and run home to fight another day.
> 
> What can the paf pilot do---he is not going to hide---he is not going to run---he will lay down his life---so that you and I can look good and say---hey, look at our pilot---he gave away his life---but he didnot run---bravo---.


Thanks for reply mate

First of all PAF *pilots* will stupid to give a chance to *IAF pilot * to not to reach in WVR ranges as it will be a head on combat so both planes will be heading towards each others hence calculation of distance will not only depend on IAF's speed but also on F-16's speed and further more IAF will never send in an MKI alone to combat with PAF have 3 to 4 vectoring towards it knowing that PAF F-16's originally got upgraded APG-66s with AIM-7 SPARROWS. (Though PAF will never admit it but IAF knew this that's why no real adventure done ever  )

I Don't know kill ratio of russian missile i know that Russian are still behind US in jamming tech.

PAF pilot will lay down his life after giving a good fight and if that happen I can bet my life that PAF pilot will not the only one going down.



> Now coming to the F 22 and F 16 kill---actuall it was either 35 f 16 killed or 50 killed before one of them got a shot at the F 22.


Not going to reply until i found my original source about this.



> Many a times I have explained---the the su 30 in the sights of f 16 was a set up---paf and pakistan were lucky that our pilot had the discipline to hold the trigger---and the controller the common sense to keep incharge.



Ok it was a setup but how PAF and Pakistan was lucky in that incident this is something beyond me...mate if Indian were that prepared for an all out attack we had seen something REAL over Muredke other than a mere stint. Why Indian were asking US to ask Kiyani to please let us strike once to bring down temperature in Indian Janta?? Any thoughts... Mark my words, the day Indian felt they can take on Pakistan and can walk over they will not wait anyone not even US (Similar happened when Israel strike Iraqi nuclear power plant when Israel have all the preparation, technology, tactics and advantage and Iraqi had no idea; Here in Indo Pak scenario situation is way different and PAF is busy in denying any such advantage which Israeli had over Iraq in 1982)

Russian missile may have good kill ratio but that is a relative term there are lots of other factor in any air combat until and unless you are not on a gaming console 



> Let us be techincal over here---forget our compassions for the flag for a moment---it is time for hard analysis---with a cool mind---and the time of battle is today---now---we fight a war with the weapons systems that were in our arsenal yesterday---not what we will be getting later on tomorrow.



Time of battle was almost certain some 10 months back and it was in 2002 when PAF was even worse condition... we know that it was Indian choice not to attack Pakistan on both account not our's. Please don't tell me India restraint just for human rights.


> I will tell you what the black day truly was----it was the first time we ordered the F 16's----paf had the option of getting the mirage 2000's or the f 16---I am talking about the first purchase---the mirage m2k was an equally competent fighter aircraft---but paf failed to analyze the future and strategic implications of the purchase---.



Please correct your history, Peace Gate I for 40 F-16s were signed in December 1981 where as M2K entered French Air force service in 1984  I think it is enough to explain the reason PAF choose F-16 as it was only available choice among two under discussion.

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## BoggedDown

As I have stated already it many times here as well as in other forums, PAF's choice of F-16s were right one. It was right decision in 1981, correct decision in 1989 as well as best decision in 2005. Though PAF should have immediately stopped paying for F16s when those were embargoed. But the mistake they made is to stick to only one option. PAF should have also ordered immediately Mirage 2k when they were available and offered quite cheap in early 80s as well. Also they should have ordered Mirage2Ks when F16s were embargoed. This would provide PAF a second option and reduce the risk of sole dependency on USA. As many air forces do operate multiple type of fighter jets with quite similar capabilities e.g Greece, Taiwan etc operate F16s as well as Mirage 2k. It is common practice even today for example in telecom operators not to trust only one supplier because than they the sole vendor will try to dictate terms and behave as monopolist bully. Pakistan and Pakistanis in general should learn to "not to put all eggs in one basket" rather should always have a second option and a balanced relationship with multiple sources. I was always with the opinion that if PAF had chosen Mirage2Ks as second option in 80s, USA would not dared to embargo those F16s as it would not have any effect in PAF capabilities and PAF could always order more Mirages to bridge the gap. In current scenario PAF finally learned to go for second option by selecting Chinese fighters as well as more F16s. But I would hope they see the vision as well to keep an european option open to replace the USA when our F16s need replacement in next decades.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Scenarios create bravado---no nation is sure if they will take the other one down just like that. One thing leads to the other---creates the ripple effect---which builds into a small wave---you shoot the su 30---you create a tidal wave---it is the pride and joy of india---india could care less after that point.


" First of all PAF pilots will stupid to give a chance to IAF pilot to not to reach in WVR ranges as it will be a head on combat so both planes will be heading towards each others hence calculation of distance will not only depend on IAF's speed but also on F-16's speed and further more IAF will never send in an MKI alone to combat with PAF have 3 to 4 vectoring towards it knowing that PAF F-16's originally got upgraded APG-66s with AIM-7 SPARROWS. (Though PAF will never admit it but IAF knew this that's why no real adventure done ever )"


Here paf pilot has no options, but to head into the 'valley of death'---it is not a matter of chance----it is a matter of choice---the su 30's would intentionally refrain from making wvr contact----why would they need to---they each carry 8 bvr's---which can shoot around 50 miles plus range---.

When I stated that the su 30 would launch its missiles and scoot---it didnot mean that there would be only one---there maybe 2 or 3 or 4---whatever the iaf felt like.

You still don't get it----once the su 30 locks its bvr and launches it missiles at an incoming fighter---there is not much the target fighter can do---either try to evade the missile or pray that somehow it misses him---it is not going to be one missile---they are going to be 2 for each target.

Now there is a talk of jamming---what jamming---the russian missile may not be good at the extremme end of their ranges----but within the 60--80 % of the max range---they are deadly---.

The indians always ask for the impossible---to keep pakistan on the back foot all the time---to keep them in an explaining position rather than a dictating position first of all---and secondly---infuriate the paks so much by that demand they may indulge into doing something stupid.

India ordered the mirage in 84 and got them on a fast track in 85---if paf had ordered 2 sqdrns and diversified---india could have been choked on the order---rather than haveing 2 superior diversified aircraft in their inventory---they chose one and decided to let the enemy get the other one---there thinking was---we are superior---we will take care of the enemy.


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## aanshu001

I Don't know kill ratio of russian missile i know that Russian are still behind US in jamming tech.

Indian are using Israelis jamming pods which are believe to best (at least you take equal which PAF use). 


Not going to reply until i found my original source about this.


Russian missile may have good kill ratio but that is a relative term there are lots of other factor in any air combat until and unless you are not on a gaming console 

one thing which need to be consider the *radars * which bend in favor of IAF Green Pine, PESA, current upgradation of MIGs & M2K (Just leave AWACS) A2A combat is friction of seconds and IAF had favor.

In near future Mig-29 & M2k (both upgraded) will be more then current PAF F-16. with better *radar* if you are not agree with missiles (both French & Russian).


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## wild peace

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Scenarios create bravado---no nation is sure if they will take the other one down just like that. One thing leads to the other---creates the ripple effect---which builds into a small wave---you shoot the su 30---you create a tidal wave---it is the pride and joy of india---india could care less after that point.
> 
> 
> " First of all PAF pilots will stupid to give a chance to IAF pilot to not to reach in WVR ranges as it will be a head on combat so both planes will be heading towards each others hence calculation of distance will not only depend on IAF's speed but also on F-16's speed and further more IAF will never send in an MKI alone to combat with PAF have 3 to 4 vectoring towards it knowing that PAF F-16's originally got upgraded APG-66s with AIM-7 SPARROWS. (Though PAF will never admit it but IAF knew this that's why no real adventure done ever )"
> 
> 
> Here paf pilot has no options, but to head into the 'valley of death'---it is not a matter of chance----it is a matter of choice---the su 30's would intentionally refrain from making wvr contact----why would they need to---they each carry 8 bvr's---which can shoot around 50 miles plus range---.
> 
> When I stated that the su 30 would launch its missiles and scoot---it didnot mean that there would be only one---there maybe 2 or 3 or 4---whatever the iaf felt like.
> 
> You still don't get it----once the su 30 locks its bvr and launches it missiles at an incoming fighter---there is not much the target fighter can do---either try to evade the missile or pray that somehow it misses him---it is not going to be one missile---they are going to be 2 for each target.
> 
> Now there is a talk of jamming---what jamming---the russian missile may not be good at the extremme end of their ranges----but within the 60--80 &#37; of the max range---they are deadly---.
> 
> The indians always ask for the impossible---to keep pakistan on the back foot all the time---to keep them in an explaining position rather than a dictating position first of all---and secondly---infuriate the paks so much by that demand they may indulge into doing something stupid.
> 
> India ordered the mirage in 84 and got them on a fast track in 85---if paf had ordered 2 sqdrns and diversified---india could have been choked on the order---rather than haveing 2 superior diversified aircraft in their inventory---they chose one and decided to let the enemy get the other one---there thinking was---we are superior---we will take care of the enemy.



What about this.....Sir


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## Arsalan

*Happy Defence Day* to all of you,

May Pakistan Live long, 
Inshallah!

http://www.defence.pk/forums/national-political-issues/33280-happy-defence-day.html#post471814

regards!


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## Engr786

May any one notify the basic difference between JF-17 & F-16D(technically)


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## Arsalan

the basic difference is:
they are two different planes,, 

regards!


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## r0ck

Thanks a lot for the videos wild peace.

Man the newscaster starts jumping to conclusions about the person's background. As a military aviation professional, he was just sharing his views about the performance of the IAF. 

Nonetheless very interesting video with regards to the above discussed so-called 10:1 or even 5:1 kill ratio with the PAF. .....


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## PakShaheen79

> Scenarios create bravado---no nation is sure if they will take the other one down just like that. One thing leads to the other---creates the ripple effect---which builds into a small wave---you shoot the su 30---you create a tidal wave---it is the pride and joy of india---india could care less after that point.



Sir, to be honest.. I also hate drawing some imaginative scenario but was just replying what you posted in your earlier post. We both know air combat is not as simple as it looks on ground.


> You still don't get it----once the su 30 locks its bvr and launches it missiles at an incoming fighter---there is not much the target fighter can do---either try to evade the missile or pray that somehow it misses him---it is not going to be one missile---they are going to be 2 for each target.



I have got you point sir.. only problem I have with what you are saying is the way you write off PAF completely in that scenario where we are still unaware where all this air combat will be taken place, above Pakistani grounds or inside Indian territory..This one factor alone can change whole completion of scenario.



> Now there is a talk of jamming---what jamming---the russian missile may not be good at the extremme end of their ranges----but within the 60--80 &#37; of the max range---they are deadly--



Any reasons IAF is using more and more NON-Russian ECM/ECCM suites on their Russian planes?


> The indians always ask for the impossible---to keep pakistan on the back foot all the time---to keep them in an explaining position rather than a dictating position first of all---and secondly---infuriate the paks so much by that demand they may indulge into doing something stupid.



AGREED. 100% there is no doubt after Mumbai drama.



> India ordered the mirage in 84 and got them on a fast track in 85---if paf had ordered 2 sqdrns and diversified---india could have been choked on the order---rather than haveing 2 superior diversified aircraft in their inventory---they chose one and decided to let the enemy get the other one---there thinking was---we are superior---we will take care of the enemy.



hmmm... I think we must look after having diversification with F-16,F-15,F-18,A-10,F-14 etc where USAF is heading, Answer is JSF. Joint Strike Fighter.. Why? because it unified the operational requirement of fighter. Different version but same base fighter. Now let's see what PAF choosed in 1981... Original plan was of having more than 110 F-16s in service following same principle of unification and in 1981 no one was thinking about US sanctions on Pakistan which took place in 1990 secondly we can't ignore the size of our economy and modern fighters were and are expensive things. Buying something is one matter and keeping it operational is another. BTW, Pak did opt for F-7Ps in 1988 to have a lower tear of PAF for CAS like operations.

If you ask me, I think Pakistan real failure in planning was a delayed go ahead in JF-17 project, if this could have happen in say 1995 we could have some 2 to 3 operational squadrons in service or may be test flights of Block-II of Thunders.

Let's hope PAF has learned its lesson and will keep an aggressive posture in its future planning. No doubts 1990s is lost decade it is time when IAF took real advantage over PAF technically and now PAF is trying desperately to catch up.


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## Stealth




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## PakShaheen79

Engr786 said:


> May any one notify the basic difference between JF-17 & F-16D(technically)



F-16D has dual cockpit.
Better range
More ordnance
Specialized version for Pilot training/ Ground missions
etc.

Search more on F-16.net


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## PakShaheen79

Thanks Stealth for info.


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## wild peace

Happy Defence Day to all of you,

May Pakistan Live long,
Inshallah!

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## wild peace

The one on the right first with red nose is Delilah.I love its capibalties.
http://defense-update.com/images_new/air_delilah.jpg


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## wild peace




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## wild peace

PakShaheen79 said:


> F-16D has dual cockpit.
> Better range
> More ordnance
> Specialized version for Pilot training/ Ground missions
> etc.
> 
> Search more on F-16.net




F-16D Block 52+ Fighting Falcon - Technologies

The two-seat Block 52 F-16D, also known as F-16DJ, is a Block 42 follow-on with more powerful engine models and new weapon options. The US Air Force has integrated the HTS pod in some F-16DJs for suppression of enemy air defenses using the HARM missile. The Block 52 F-16D was deployed in 1991.

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/mi...ars-000110-TextImage.imindefParstextimage.gif

* Pilot-friendly modern cockpit with colour displays, compatibility with night vision systems, excellent outside visibility and high-g tolerance - all facilitate pilot situation awareness and mission effectiveness

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/mi...ars-000112-TextImage.imindefParstextimage.gif

* Missionised two-place model with weapon system operator controls in the rear cockpit, plus a dorsal avionics compartment to house a full suite of mission equipment

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/mi...ars-000114-TextImage.imindefParstextimage.gif

* Advanced modular core avionics provide the processing speed and power to integrate complex systems, with ample room for future upgrades


* Advanced multi-mode radar provides long-range detection and tracking of multiple aerial targets and high-resolution ground mapping and surface target detection and tracking. Supports standoff, all-weather operations with precision weapons


* Compatibility with all forward-looking infrared navigation and targeting pods to provide robust, day/night operations, including laser-guided weapons


* Advanced internal countermeasures suite including threat warning, electronic jamming and auto chaff/flare dispensing


* Optional 600-gal wing tanks and conformal fuel tanks to extend range/payload/persistence capabilities


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## Arsalan

what about the current status about MLUz. we have not heared of any procedings, i hope evey thing is on track!

regards!


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## sancho

PakShaheen79 said:


> Sir, to be honest.. I also hate drawing some imaginative scenario but was just replying what you posted in your earlier post. We both know air combat is not as simple as it looks on ground.
> 
> 
> I have got you point sir.. only problem I have with what you are saying is the way you write off PAF completely in that scenario where we are still unaware where all this air combat will be taken place, above Pakistani grounds or inside Indian territory..This one factor alone can change whole completion of scenario.


There is no need to write off PAF completely, F16 and later J10 are good aircrafts and will be a problem for IAF. Both aircrafts are capable to defend it's airspace but you have to admit that IAF has some clear advantages on their side. The numerical is only one, which is necessary because of the size of India, but more important for PAF is the advantage that IAF has in BVR. Not only that more than 300 fighters are BVR capable, but with the long range radar of MKI combined with datalinks to guide other aircrafts and the induction of the first A50 Phalcon AWACS, they also have a big advantage in situational awareness!
Imo the best chance for them is the close combat, where it can use it's maneuverability and the good t/w ratio. Against Mig 21, 27, Jags and maybe even Mirage 2k it should remain superior, but against Mig 29 and MKI it will be different, specially if 160 of them are pitted aginst around only 40 F16s.


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## Arsalan

sancho said:


> The numerical is only one, which is necessary because of the size of India, but more important for PAF is the advantage that IAF has in BVR. Not only that more than 300 fighters are BVR capable, but with the long range radar of MKI combined with datalinks to guide other aircrafts and the induction of the first A50 Phalcon AWACS, they also have a big advantage in situational awareness!



agree,
neumerical advantage is not of that much importance as IAF require large number to defend its large territory.
the real threat in past was from the BVR ability which now by the induction of BVRAAM like SD10 and AMRAAM C% is neutralized to some extent. for situational awareness PAF is also on right track with four ERIEYE and four KJ200 to be inducted in comming years!

regards!


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## r0ck

sancho said:


> Imo the best chance for them is the close combat, where it can use it's maneuverability and the good t/w ratio. Against Mig 21, 27, Jags and maybe even Mirage 2k it should remain superior, but against Mig 29 and MKI it will be different, specially if 160 of them are pitted aginst around only 40 F16s.



And yet India wanted clearence from america, for attacking certain Pakistani sites, after the Mumbai blasts. With all due respect Sir, I can assure you had the situation been as simple as you stated (i.e. 160 Migs & MKIs versus 40 F-16s) there would have been a war a long, long time ago. If, with those numbers and equipment, there is still no war, then IMHO Pakistan Air Force has and is still doing a comparatively remarkable job than the IAF.


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## PakShaheen79

sancho said:


> There is no need to write off PAF completely, F16 and later J10 are good aircrafts and will be a problem for IAF. Both aircrafts are capable to defend it's airspace but you have to admit that IAF has some clear advantages on their side. The numerical is only one, which is necessary because of the size of India, but more important for PAF is the advantage that IAF has in BVR. Not only that more than 300 fighters are BVR capable, but with the long range radar of MKI combined with datalinks to guide other aircrafts and the induction of the first A50 Phalcon AWACS, they also have a big advantage in situational awareness!
> Imo the best chance for them is the close combat, where it can use it's maneuverability and the good t/w ratio. Against Mig 21, 27, Jags and maybe even Mirage 2k it should remain superior, but against Mig 29 and MKI it will be different, specially if 160 of them are pitted aginst around only 40 F16s.



Clearly IAF is enjoying huge technical edge over PAF which BTW is going to fade away in a short period of time. October 09 first Erieye will be in PAF so situational awareness thing will be staled, BVR advantage will also taken care of once AIM-120C handed over in 2010. 

But still IAF will enjoy numerical superiority which is also necessary. More fighters can do more sorties in war time. MKI and MRCA are major competitor for PAF fighters right now and have some advantages as mentioned above but again situation will be much much improved as compared to 1990s after induction of F-16M, JF-17, Erieye, ZDK03 and FC-20.


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## sancho

r0ck said:


> And yet India wanted clearence from america, for attacking certain Pakistani sites, after the Mumbai blasts. With all due respect Sir, I can assure you had the situation been as simple as you stated (i.e. 160 Migs & MKIs versus 40 F-16s) there would have been a war a long, long time ago. If, with those numbers and equipment, there is still no war, then IMHO Pakistan Air Force has and is still doing a comparatively remarkable job than the IAF.


US intervenes and hold IAF back to attack Pakistan, which for a change was a good idea of them, cause a war is nothing the people of both countries really want. 
Anyway, I think you missunderstood something! I also said that PAF is able to defend it's airspace, specially combined with ground threats it will be risky for IAF to attack. But if, they have some advantages on their side that can't be denied (numerical, technical, BVR).


PakShaheen79 said:


> Clearly IAF is enjoying huge technical edge over PAF which BTW is going to fade away in a short period of time. October 09 first Erieye will be in PAF so situational awareness thing will be staled, BVR advantage will also taken care of once AIM-120C handed over in 2010.
> 
> But still IAF will enjoy numerical superiority which is also necessary. More fighters can do more sorties in war time. MKI and MRCA are major competitor for PAF fighters right now and have some advantages as mentioned above but again situation will be much much improved as compared to 1990s after induction of F-16M, JF-17, Erieye, ZDK03 and FC-20.


I can't agree that the technical advantage will be fade away, because even if inducting BVR missiles and Erieye is a good move of PAF to close the gap a bit, the induction of more AWACS (at least 2 more A50 Phalcons, DRDO AWACS from 2012 on), spy sats and MMRCA with new techs and capabilities will make it bigger again. 
Even Erieye will have a lot of problems to detect fighters with a RCS below 1, like most of the MMRCA contenders have. It is most likely that IAF will have AMRAAM too, maye even Meteor, possibly SC engines and the latest radars and EWS suits. These are techs that PAF won't get so soon and will give IAF some advantages again, not to forget that next gen fighters are already under development.
That's why imo the technical advantage will remain, whereas the numerical will be reduced in the next few years (during phasing out Mig 21 and inducting LCA/MMRCA).


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## PakShaheen79

> I can't agree that the technical advantage will be fade away, because even if inducting BVR missiles and Erieye is a good move of PAF to close the gap a bit, the induction of more AWACS (at least 2 more A50 Phalcons, DRDO AWACS from 2012 on), spy sats and MMRCA with new techs and capabilities will make it bigger again.
> Even Erieye will have a lot of problems to detect fighters with a RCS below 1, like most of the MMRCA contenders have. It is most likely that IAF will have AMRAAM too, maye even Meteor, possibly SC engines and the latest radars and EWS suits. These are techs that PAF won't get so soon and will give IAF some advantages again, not to forget that next gen fighters are already under development.
> That's why imo the technical advantage will remain, whereas the numerical will be reduced in the next few years (during phasing out Mig 21 and inducting LCA/MMRCA).



I used word 'fade away' not finished or eliminate OK. When you talk about at least 2 more A-50 Phalcon why you forget +3 Erieye and+4 ZDK-03?? As far as detecting fighter with RCS 1 I can not agree as Erieye is designed to detect cruise missiles which has usually even less RCS and further more this RCS =1 is archived in clean configuration of fighter and it is not necessary that F-18 or MKI. MIG-29 will have RCS 1 when fully loaded with armament. Only Spy Sat is something which PAF will not able to match in near future rest every thing will be matched. Be it BVR, Advanced Fighters or More AEW platforms.

I didnot count AMRAAM AIM-120Cs as advantage of PAF but a match of IAF capability. SD-10/PL-12 will also be there but India will also have multiple BVR missiles like R-77, R-27, AIM-120Cs etc. so both AFs will have this only difference IAF's distinct advantage of 'only AF armed with BVR in South East Asia' would be matched by PAF.
Pakistan is already in talk with France to get latest EW suite and FCR for JF-17 Thunder. There is no embargo on Pakistan this time around as it was during 1990s.

Yet again PAF or Pakistan for that matter never introduced any conventional and non conventional weapon system in subcontinent other than submarine. It was and is India who brought new weapon systems here and Pakistan acted to get deterrence against these systems. ( Nuclear weapons and their delivery systems are good example of this) So surely Pakistan will have to act once any 5th fighter arrive in skies of subcontinent and we will (Inshallah).

So, All in all technical advantage will fade away in coming years where as numerical advantage will remain with IAF as it is now.


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## Arsalan

sancho said:


> I can't agree that the technical advantage will be fade away, because even if inducting BVR missiles and Erieye is a good move of PAF to close the gap a bit, the induction of more AWACS (at least 2 more A50 Phalcons, DRDO AWACS from 2012 on), spy sats and MMRCA with new techs and capabilities will make it bigger again.
> .


talking about technical advantage tee number are not to be counted. the reason for a larger fleet with IAF is already discussed to be because of large territory it have to look after.
with three Phalcon AWACS and and new procurement you must also remember that IAF will have to deploy them with both Pakistani and Chines border.
and as said earlier the BVR issue is resolved with procurement of AMRAAMS and SD10. we may even see something new in years to come as the JF get uppgrded and westren avionice bbieng employed!
yes the MRCA contender will maintain the IAF edge for which PAF will be looking forward to FC20 specs. it may not completely neutrilze the threat but it surely will minimize it!
i hope you understand what i am trying to say,,

regards!


----------



## MZUBAIR

*Advanced F-16 Block 50/52/60*

F-16F (Block 60) built for the Air Force of the UAE, seen on its first flight. This two-seater version is now designated F-16F.

Lockheed Martin&#8217;s F-16 was known as &#8220;the workhorse of Desert Storm&#8221; and its combat-proven tradition continued in Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2003, with close to 4,000 sorties flown in continuous, all-weather operations. The production lines of this versatile strike fighter revived since the turn of the century, with new production orders for 344 aircraft and modernization and upgrading contracts for many more, that position this air combat veteran at the leading edge of air warfare. Firm orders will provide production line work until at least 2008, with anticipated new orders and deliveries lasting through 2011.


The Israeli Soufa (Storm) F-16I is based on a modified F-16 Block 52 configuration, with many indigenous systems designed specifically for the IAF. 

The latest Fighting Falcons rolling off the Lockheed Martin's production line in Fort Worth, Texas, are advanced Block 50/52 and lately, Block 60 versions. These production series represent the largest configuration change in the F-16 history, offering additional fuel and payload capacity, new or improved avionics and sensors, color cockpit displays with enhanced pilot/vehicle interfaces. Nine countries have already ordered Advanced Block 50/52/60 F-16s, including the USA, Greece, Israel, UAE, Chile and Poland, The lead customer for Block 52 was the Hellenic Air Force which will receive all its 50 new F-16s in 2004. 30 additional aircraft, plus options for 10 were ordered by the Greek government In December 2005, with deliveries scheduled for 2009. The Israeli Air Force will receive its first F-16Is in February 2004 and the last of the 102 aircraft is scheduled for delivery by 2008. The lead customer for 80 Block 60 aircraft was the Air Force of the United Arab Emirates which is also in production for initial deliveries in 2004.


The Hellenic Air Force will receive this year the last of the 50 F-16 Block 52 aircraft ordered in 2000, both two seaters and single seater.

Advanced versions of the Block 50/52 F-16s are difficult to tell from previous F-16s, as most changes are internal. However, the two-seat models of the Advanced Block 50/52 and Block 60 are equipped with a dorsal avionics compartment that accommodates all of the systems of the single-seat model as well as some special mission equipment and additional chaff/flare dispensers. Most aircraft are procured wit Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFT) for extended range and mission endurance. The rear cockpit can be configured for either a weapon system operator or an instructor pilot and can be converted with a single switch in the cockpit. 

Advanced Engines
Advanced Block 50/52 aircraft have a common engine bay that allows customers a choice of engines in the 29,000-pound thrust class. The Block 50s and are powered by the General Electric F110-GE-129 and have the Modular Common Inlet Duct (known as the large mouth inlet). Block 60 aircraft (for the UAE) are fitted with GE F-110-GE-132 engine, a derivative of the F-110-GE-129 that is rated at 32,500 pounds of thrust. The Block 52s are powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 Improved performance Engine (IPE) which also has 29,000 pounds of thrust. The engine is configured with the Normal Shock Inlet (also known as the small mouth inlet). The aircraft is also equipped with an on-board oxygen-generating system replaces the liquid oxygen system of earlier versions to provide breathable air to the pilot. The system improves mission rate, maintainability, deployment flexibility and safety.

Targeting and Weapon Systems
For air/air missions, the aircraft is equipped with medium range missiles such as the AIM-120A AMRAAM. For close range combat, the aircraft can support the AIM-9X, IRIS-T, Python 4 and Python 5. The aircraft also retains the capability to use the six barrel 20mm Gatling gun. Block 52 configurations are also equipped with an advanced version of the APG-68 radar - the (V)9, while F-16E/F is fitted with the new APG-80 Active Electronic Scanning Array (AESA) system. These new radars have improved performance, higher processing speed and memory capacities and improved high-resolution synthetic aperture radar mode which allows the pilot to locate and recognize tactical ground targets from considerable distances. In conjunction with inertial aided weapons, the advanced F-16 gains an enhanced capability for all-weather precision strike from standoff distances. Modern F-16s of the advanced Block 50/52 can accommodate various targeting systems, including the Lockheed Martin Sniper XR/Pantera, and Northrop Grumman/RAFAEL Litening. These pods are used for target identification, acquisition and designation for smart, GPS guided munitions or laser guided bombs such as GBU-31 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM), the AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW), SPICE guided weapon, and CBU-103/104/105 Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD). The later can also be cued by target data provided directly from the radar, in low visibility conditions. On recce missions, advanced F-16s can also carry autonomous reconnaissance pods on the centerline, on intelligence gathering penetration or standoff sorties.

Navigation Systems
A navigation pod, such as LANTIRN/Pathfinder and digital terrain models are contributing to a safe, accurate low level flight. The aircraft is also equipped with various navigation systems such as tactical air navigation (TACAN), VHF omnidirectional receiver (VOR), distance measuring equipment (DME), and instrument landing system. An integrated precision navigation suite consisting of a ring laser gyro inertial navigation system (INS), global positioning system (GPS), and digital terrain system (DTS) are also standard. 

Cockpit Configurations
The standard configuration of an Advanced Block 50/52 cockpit features helmet-mounted cueing system, which allows the pilot to direct sensors or weapons to his line of sight or to help him find a designated target. Head-Up Display and several color multifunction displays and advanced recording and data-transfer equipment is used to reduce pilot workload in every phase of the mission. The cockpit is compatible with night vision goggles. A common configuration includes multi-channel VHF/UHF/HF/Data communications, satellite communication and tactical data link systems (such as the NATO-standard Link 16), in addition. Link 16 provides secure, jam-resistant, high-volume data exchange on a multi-node network. Also standard is the combined friend from foe interrogator/ transponder, which permits autonomous identification to maximize launch ranges of radar-guided air-to-air missiles at distances beyond visual range (BVR).


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## mehad

is PAF getting f-16 block 52 or it is denied by american congress???


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## hj786

wild peace said:


> SlZuPWou7Z8[/media] - Future Weapons Israel special part 6 - Delilah missile


No big deal. South Africa developed something very similar decades ago and has used an earlier version of it in combat (The South African Air Force - H-2 stand-off weapon), a weapon which is also believed to be under production in Pakistan and operational with the PAF:
..:: DENEL DYNAMICS - Division of Denel Pty LTD. ::.. - Raptor II 
http://www.deneldynamics.co.za/resources/BROC0222_RAPTOR.pdf


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## Patriot

Yep, it's H-2 or H-4 I think.Besides, RAAD is pretty similar weapon and has been launched by our Mirages few years ago.Let's just hope they mass produce these babies.


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## hj786

Patriot said:


> Yep, it's H-2 or H-4 I think.Besides, RAAD is pretty similar weapon and has been launched by our Mirages few years ago.Let's just hope they mass produce these babies.



Ra'ad is a cruise missile. I don't think it will have the data-link which allows the pilot to control H-2/H-4 from the cockpit. The SAAF link posted above says the H-2/H-4 communication system range is 250 km, but Ra'ad is stated to have a range of 350 km. Anyway, I very much doubt H-2/H-4 is integrated on PAF F-16s so this is going off topic.


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## arsalan shafique

just tell me that PAkistan is getting f-16c/d block52 or 52+???
because 52+ is having (CFT) which give it extra range & without using a hardpoint & they r easily removeable!!


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## hj786

arsalan shafique said:


> just tell me that PAkistan is getting f-16c/d block52 or 52+???
> because 52+ is having (CFT) which give it extra range & without using a hardpoint & they r easily removeable!!



Stop being lazy, do a few minutes of research. First go to this website:
www.google.com
Then type this into the big white box:
"Pakistan F-16 CFT"


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## muse

Bhartiya


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## DANGER-ZONE

guys look at the vapours,and its on full throtel.
i never saw any paf f16 with this kind of vapours

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## PakShaheen79

very Nice F-16B in full swing. Thanks for sharing mate


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## Abu Zolfiqar

mehad said:


> is PAF getting f-16 block 52 or it is denied by american congress???



not denied. We'll hopefully get them (18 of them) by 2012.

Of course, a lot of "bad PR" has been done against Pakistan (partly our fault) since the deal was signed in 2005.

Along with the aircrafts would come 

&#9632;200 AIM-9M-8/9s Sidewinders
&#9632;500 AIM-120C5s AMRAAM BVR missiles
&#9632;800 general purpose 2,000 and 500-pound bombs
&#9632;500 JDAM bomb guidance systems
&#9632;Link 16
&#9632;JHMCS
&#9632;Lockheed Martine Advanced Sniper Targetting Pods (for night-time precision attacks)
&#9632;CFTs



we do have to keep in mind that if india decides to opt for the FA/18 Hornets (or the Block 60 F-16s), this may have a detrimental or delaying effect on our deal.



it is no secret that the hindustany lobbyists have been submitting essays and seminars to countries spanning from USA to Germany to Brazil.

something along the lines of "please, please, please, stop arming them!!!" 


(go figure)

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## DANGER-ZONE

PakShaheen79 said:


> very Nice F-16B in full swing. Thanks for sharing mate



well thanks for ur coment but real thanking is by clicking THANK button.

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## DANGER-ZONE



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## Arsalan

bro they really are nice pics but i do not think they are from 6 September show 

regards!


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## Imran Khan

they are from recent exersize bro


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## PakShaheen79

danger-zone said:


> well thanks for ur coment but real thanking is by clicking THANK button.



Oh my bad... Though i have done..Anyhow I have Clicked "THNAKS" button for your comfort.

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## Arsalan

imran khan said:


> they are from recent exersize bro



hmm that what they seemed like, no one gonna drop bombs flying over chaklala!!
thanks for conformation!
i was confused as te first post claimed the pic there to be from 
6 sep and then nothing was mentioned in second post as if the sequence is continued!!

regards!


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## Super Falcon

A year after the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was called to join the country's military effort in combating Taliban militants along the border with Afghanistan, the planned arrival in August of the first air-to-air refuelling aircraft on lease from Ukraine for training purposes carries a special significance. By 2010, the PAF plans to complete the induction of up to four Ilyushin Il-78 aircraft fitted with a mid-air refuelling capability, extending the capacity of its fighter aircraft to patrol areas over the border region. Western defence officials see the induction of a mid-air refuelling capability as a significant boost to the PAF at a time when the force aims to reconcile itself with duties related to anti-terror operations while maintaining what its senior commanders describe as a "minimum deterrence" against the much larger Indian Air Force (IAF). According to the chief of the air staff of the PAF, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, the refuelling capability is an "extremely significant" development. "This is an absolutely new capability we are getting, which we are inducting. 
.
We never had this capability in the Pakistan Air Force," ACM Qamar told Jane's. The PAF's operations in Pakistan's northern areas, ranging from the northern Swat valley and its surrounding region, have been carried out mainly by some of the 45 US-supplied F-16 multirole fighter aircraft in Pakistan's inventory. "These armed aircraft can stay for up to four, five, six hours in the area," ACM Qamar said."During this time, if there is any militant attack anywhere in the FATA [Federally Administered Tribal Areas], these aircraft can go there immediately, within minutes, and they can bomb the militants. It will create the right kind of deterrence against the militants." ACM Qamar said the PAF's operations in the north have brought significant pressure to bear on Taliban militants, who were on the advance until the recent military campaign in Swat began reversing the tide. "They [Taliban militants] never see us on the ground. The only time they find out that an aircraft has struck is when the bomb explodes on them. 
.
It creates a great psychological impact." The PAF's experience in the past year is beginning to influence its future plans, both in terms of operational procedures as well as the choice of aircraft and ammunition. "This was a new kind of warfare for us. The PAF was focused on enemy air forces. We remained focused on enemy land forces and enemy air forces and, therefore, we were preparing ourselves to fight against organised modern air forces and against modern armies," ACM Qamar said. "We never thought we would be required to fight against militants or be involved in counter-insurgency operations. When we started this [counter-insurgency], we had to learn while on the job. We had to re-orient our thinking, we had to refine our ... existing SOPs [standard operating procedures] and we had to develop new SOPs for this kind of warfare. However, we did that very quickly." This experience has led the PAF to identify new areas for development, such as acquiring more precision-guided bombs, enhanced night precision attack capabilities and the capability to monitor communications and track the movement of militants. The PAF's other, already established, requirements include the development of the JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft, co-produced with China. 
.
The PAF plans to eventually induct up to 250 JF-17 fighters, making the aircraft the backbone of its inventory. The first 'fully made in Pakistan' JF-17 is expected to be produced by the end of this year at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra, north of Islamabad. However, there is still a requirement for a more advanced fighter aircraft, as the PAF prepares to counter the future edge that may be acquired by the IAF once it completes the planned purchase of 126 multirole combat aircraft (MRCAs) "We knew about this requirement of the Indian Air Force for 126 latest-generation fighter aircraft. Yes, it is an alarming development because when they get 126 such capable aircraft, then we also need to have something matching to counter that threat," ACM Qamar said. For the PAF, not only will the induction of 14 used F-16 aircraft and 18 new F-16C/D aircraft figure prominently in narrowing the gap, but continuing negotiations with China to purchase up to 36 FC-20 fighter aircraft - designated the J-10 in China - will also play an important role. ACM Qamar said the PAF has finalised the technical proposal for the FC-20 and informed the Chinese of its requirements."[The technical proposal] is more or less finalised now. There are some changes that are required, which [the Chinese] are making," he said. 
.
The next stage of the contract will involve financial negotiations between China and Pakistan. ACM Qamar believes that, following the signing of a contract, it will take two to two-and-a-half years before the first FC-20 aircraft is received. Other elements of the PAF's force expansion include the purchase of four Erieye airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft from Sweden. The PAF expects to receive the first of these aircraft by end of this year and the other three next year.ACM Qamar said the PAF has also signed a contract for the purchase of four Chinese airborne early warning and control aircraft. The first of these is due to arrive in 2011 and the remaining three will be delivered in 2012.


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## DANGER-ZONE

imran khan said:


> they are from recent exersize bro



nop bro they r from old one,in which we have seen mirages & f7p bombing different bombs.also it contained the pix of cluster bombing.
if u want a full view of these pix click here
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/33643-images-paf-exercises.html


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## PakShaheen79

danger-zone said:


> nop bro they r from old one,in which we have seen mirages & f7p bombing different bombs.also it contained the pix of cluster bombing.
> if u want a full view of these pix click here
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/33643-images-paf-exercises.html



Do you mean high marks 2005? I don't think so... Sorry if you are talking about some other exercise but i still think they are latest one as I am seeing them first time on internet but i may be wrong.


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## wild peace

danger-zone said:


> nop bro they r from old one,in which we have seen mirages & f7p bombing different bombs.also it contained the pix of cluster bombing.
> if u want a full view of these pix click here
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/33643-images-paf-exercises.html



Then whats about the thanks you received from sir arsalanaslam123 , bilal1219 , r0ck , TOPGUN .??


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## Arsalan

wild peace said:


> Then whats about the thanks you received from sir arsalanaslam123 , bilal1219 , r0ck , TOPGUN .??



,exactly!!
well *danger-zone *bro you must not forget to mention the captions to the pics telling the event from which the pics are taken. with defence day just past and Sffron bandits going on the pics may well be really misleading!
anyway as they were good ine ppics so i guess they still deserve a tab at thanks button but kindly do mention the event of the pic is future!
keep up with the nice work friend! 
regards!


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## RameeX Xaved

hehehe thats the funniest ever!


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## naseebkhanniazi

i think it is very importent that pakistan leave usa depndenc and worke with china and wait for j11 and cancel the contrect of f16 52 oder and go to buy j10b after this j11

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## nightrider_saulat

naseebkhanniazi said:


> i think it is very importent that pakistan leave usa depndenc and worke with china and wait for j11 and cancel the contrect of f16 52 oder and go to buy j10b after this j11



*but note that jf-17 and f-16 together will give us a deadly advantage over our adversary
because both look exactly of a same airframe*


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## PakShaheen79

nightrider_saulat said:


> *but note that jf-17 and f-16 together will give us a deadly advantage over our adversary
> because both look exactly of a same airframe*



May be they look but in actual war looks don't matter and performance wise F-16 is still ahead in some areas like weapon load etc.


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## RameeX Xaved

but in actual dog fights, how much probability there is that a F-16 pilot will fire all its 9 missiles before being hit by some other dude?  im not saying that more hard points is not an advantage, but in actual warfare i think F-16s wont achieve superiority over Jf-17 on the basis of hardpoints


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## Arsalan

RameeX Xaved said:


> but in actual dog fights, how much probability there is that a F-16 pilot will fire all its 9 missiles before being hit by some other dude?  im not saying that more hard points is not an advantage, but in actual warfare i think F-16s wont achieve superiority over Jf-17 on the basis of hardpoints


bro do you reeally beleive that there will still be some Dog fights in air,,
i man with all the BVRAAM missiles and emphasis on long range radar with multiple target tracking and engaging capabilities dog fight seem most unlikely to happen. no in these BVR combates the plane wiht more hard points, ths more missiles will be at an advantage of firing multiple missiles at the target thus reducing its escape probability!
moreover in Air to ground and marine time duties we cannot expect a plane ladden with three external oil tansk, atleast one AShM and just two WVRAAM to do us a lot good! it wont be wise to sned in the plane wiht no BVRAAM and to do so one will have to compromise on range by removing fuel tanks,, i know that the solution to this problem will caome along with the mid air refueler sbut it wont be an ideal answer!
you do not want your front line plane to be refueled again and again in war times!!
so the bottom line is JF17 will havce to improve on number of weapons it can carry if it really have to reach tha level that PAF currently wants it to be. this can be acheived either by hard way afater some modification in air frame to support atleast two extra hardpoint or by using multiple pylons to carry two missiles at one hardpoint. with a newer and powerfull engine already planned it wont be much of a task!!

regards!


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Air to ground or anti ship attack----the plane doing the primary strike on the target would carry the primary strike weapons---smart bombs or anti ship missiles---extra fuel tanks and maybe two wvr missiles maybe not---it will only be loaded for the job at hand---support planes will have whatever is needed--bvr's wvr's etc etc---.

The pilot going in against an sea / ocean going target knows in his heart that he has already punched his one way ticket---he knows, he is not coming back---his goal is how to get to his target and deliver the weapons and destroy the enemy---he is concerned about enemy planes pouncing upon him----.

American f 16's delivering smart weapons during the gulf war had bare minimum defencive weapons load.


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## nightrider_saulat

RameeX Xaved said:


> but in actual dog fights, how much probability there is that a F-16 pilot will fire all its 9 missiles before being hit by some other dude?  im not saying that more hard points is not an advantage, but in actual warfare i think F-16s wont achieve superiority over Jf-17 on the basis of hardpoints



*please also note that more than half of the indian air-air missiles are not even currently in working conditions​*


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## PakShaheen79

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Air to ground or anti ship attack----the plane doing the primary strike on the target would carry the primary strike weapons---smart bombs or anti ship missiles---extra fuel tanks and maybe two wvr missiles maybe not---it will only be loaded for the job at hand---support planes will have whatever is needed--bvr's wvr's etc etc---.
> 
> The pilot going in against an sea / ocean going target knows in his heart that he has already punched his one way ticket---he knows, he is not coming back---his goal is how to get to his target and deliver the weapons and destroy the enemy---he is concerned about enemy planes pouncing upon him----.
> 
> American f 16's delivering smart weapons during the gulf war had bare minimum defencive weapons load.



Correct,

Israeli F-16 were loaded without any defensive weapon in 1982 when they attacked Iraqi reactor in outskirts of Baghdad. Additional plane were there alongside with AA missiles.


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## wild peace

Fighting Falcons tackle ' SEAD / DEAD' mission



The model of the F-16 Fighting Falcon offers cutting-edge war-time fighting capabilities. Three new upgrades have helped the aircraft here transform from suppressing enemy air defenses to destroying enemy air defenses.The current USAF wild weasel aircraft is the F-16cj Fighting Falcon (the block 50/52 F-16). They took over this role from the F-4G Phantom. As far as I know, the F-16CJ has no additional internally mounted equipment that makes it suitable for the wild weasel role. Of course they train to fulfill this mission, carry the HARM and dedicated electronic pods that help them with this mission. But the F-4G had the AN/APR-38 RHAW (Radar Homing and Warning System) which replaced the 20mm cannon in the Phantom design, was specifically designed for the SEAD/DEAD role

"With the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System, the targeting pod and the Link 16, we can find something faster, share the information quicker (and) more accurately, and destroy it more unequivocally," said Lt. Col. John Montgomery, 55th Fighter Squadron commander.

The cueing system upgrade on a helmet shows heads-up display data on the helmet visor and allows the pilot to select a target without changing the jet's direction. The system enables the pilot to visually identify, lock the weapons system on and engage an air or ground target without looking through the heads-up display on the aircraft itself.

When seconds count in combat encounters, the system gives the F-16 pilot an exceptional edge, said Col. Philip Ruhlman, 20th Fighter Wing commander.

The targeting pod is another upgrade incorporated on the aircraft. It has a forward-looking infrared sensor which displays an infrared image of the target for the pilot. The pod helps with precise delivery of laser-guided munitions by using a laser to determine range to a target and to the ground, said Maj. Anthony Roberson, 20th Operations Support Squadron weapons and training flight commander.

In the future, pilots will have even greater capability with an advanced targeting pod known as the Sniper XR.

"The Sniper will give us a 5-fold increase over our current targeting capability. Because of our use of the (current pod) and our focus on training, Shaw's pilots are already prepared for Sniper delivery," Maj. Roberson said.

The third upgrade for the aircraft is the Link 16. The Link 16 allows aircraft to share cockpit data and lets pilots merge into one display what all the airplanes are seeing. The data link helps pilots quickly gain situational awareness, and it gives them a combat edge in having complete knowledge of the battle space around them.

Although each upgrade has helped in developing the dominance of F-16s, it is the combination of the three that has given the aircraft tactical superiority.

"The technical transformation of the F-16CJ has enabled evolutionary changes beyond its counter-air mission," Colonel Ruhlman said. "Current capabilities now allow for a natural progression to fully incorporate counter-land roles of close air support and precision interdiction in addition to a foundation of SEAD (and) DEAD excellence.

"This provides the combatant commander an exceptional range of capability from which to execute key roles and missions, all the while force multiplying limited assets across a wide spectrum of threats and employment challenges,

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## PakShaheen79

wild peace said:


> Fighting Falcons tackle ' SEAD / DEAD' mission
> 
> 
> 
> The model of the F-16 Fighting Falcon offers cutting-edge war-time fighting capabilities. Three new upgrades have helped the aircraft here transform from suppressing enemy air defenses to destroying enemy air defenses.The current USAF wild weasel aircraft is the F-16cj Fighting Falcon (the block 50/52 F-16). They took over this role from the F-4G Phantom. As far as I know, the F-16CJ has no additional internally mounted equipment that makes it suitable for the wild weasel role. Of course they train to fulfill this mission, carry the HARM and dedicated electronic pods that help them with this mission. But the F-4G had the AN/APR-38 RHAW (Radar Homing and Warning System) which replaced the 20mm cannon in the Phantom design, was specifically designed for the SEAD/DEAD role
> 
> "With the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System, the targeting pod and the Link 16, we can find something faster, share the information quicker (and) more accurately, and destroy it more unequivocally," said Lt. Col. John Montgomery, 55th Fighter Squadron commander.
> 
> The cueing system upgrade on a helmet shows heads-up display data on the helmet visor and allows the pilot to select a target without changing the jet's direction. The system enables the pilot to visually identify, lock the weapons system on and engage an air or ground target without looking through the heads-up display on the aircraft itself.
> 
> When seconds count in combat encounters, the system gives the F-16 pilot an exceptional edge, said Col. Philip Ruhlman, 20th Fighter Wing commander.
> 
> The targeting pod is another upgrade incorporated on the aircraft. It has a forward-looking infrared sensor which displays an infrared image of the target for the pilot. The pod helps with precise delivery of laser-guided munitions by using a laser to determine range to a target and to the ground, said Maj. Anthony Roberson, 20th Operations Support Squadron weapons and training flight commander.
> 
> In the future, pilots will have even greater capability with an advanced targeting pod known as the Sniper XR.
> 
> "The Sniper will give us a 5-fold increase over our current targeting capability. Because of our use of the (current pod) and our focus on training, Shaw's pilots are already prepared for Sniper delivery," Maj. Roberson said.
> 
> The third upgrade for the aircraft is the Link 16. The Link 16 allows aircraft to share cockpit data and lets pilots merge into one display what all the airplanes are seeing. The data link helps pilots quickly gain situational awareness, and it gives them a combat edge in having complete knowledge of the battle space around them.
> 
> Although each upgrade has helped in developing the dominance of F-16s, it is the combination of the three that has given the aircraft tactical superiority.
> 
> "The technical transformation of the F-16CJ has enabled evolutionary changes beyond its counter-air mission," Colonel Ruhlman said. "Current capabilities now allow for a natural progression to fully incorporate counter-land roles of close air support and precision interdiction in addition to a foundation of SEAD (and) DEAD excellence.
> 
> "This provides the combatant commander an exceptional range of capability from which to execute key roles and missions, all the while force multiplying limited assets across a wide spectrum of threats and employment challenges,



Thanks for posting

F-16.. Truly a legend dancing in the skies making its enemies scared like hell. Its war record speaks its self more than anybody else.


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## PakShaheen79

RameeX Xaved said:


> but in actual dog fights, how much probability there is that a F-16 pilot will fire all its 9 missiles before being hit by some other dude?  im not saying that more hard points is not an advantage, but in actual warfare i think F-16s wont achieve superiority over Jf-17 on the basis of hardpoints



Mate, Even in WVR combat F-16 don't need to fire all its 9 missiles (there will not be 9 WVR BTW ) F-16's latest versions are equipped with enough goodies to avoid being locked easily. Actually this is a relative to which fighter and missile F-16 facing in this WVR engagement and same apply to JF-17. F-16 not only has more hard point but also has a monstrously proven power plant by GE still it is to be known how RD-93 is reliable.


----------



## wild peace

PakShaheen79 said:


> Thanks for posting
> 
> F-16.. Truly a legend dancing in the skies making its enemies scared like hell. Its war record speaks its self more than anybody else.




Action speakes louder then words.....your words are always precious for me ....but pls also press thanks button......


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## PakShaheen79

wild peace said:


> Action speakes louder then words.....your words are always precious for me ....but pls also press thanks button......



Done Brother! You are always welcomed...


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## RameeX Xaved

PakShaheen79 said:


> Mate, Even in WVR combat F-16 don't need to fire all its 9 missiles (there will not be 9 WVR BTW ) F-16's latest versions are equipped with enough goodies to avoid being locked easily. Actually this is a relative to which fighter and missile F-16 facing in this WVR engagement and same apply to JF-17. F-16 not only has more hard point but also has a monstrously proven power plant by GE still it is to be known how RD-93 is reliable.



thanks for correcting me there as im a real immmature with these technichal know hows of aircrafts  but i was talking about a situation where our front line fighters and interceptors have to face our neighbour's monster Su-30 mkis and most probably Hornet, the escape probability of either F-16 or Jf-17 minimzes against these giants, in either BVR or WVR (for obvious reasons)


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## PakShaheen79

RameeX Xaved said:


> thanks for correcting me there as im a real immmature with these technichal know hows of aircrafts  but i was talking about a situation where our front line fighters and interceptors have to face our neighbour's monster Su-30 mkis and most probably Hornet, the escape probability of either F-16 or Jf-17 minimzes against these giants, in either BVR or WVR (for obvious reasons)



First of all there is no way PAF and IAF in future will go in WVR that easily. FC-20, F-16 JF-17 would be backed by Erieye and would be up against MKI, MRCA, Mig-29, Mirage2000 backed up by Phalcon. So you can see the chances of WVR are minimum.

PAF has a defensive doctrine so it will not attack in most of the casaes. Primary task would be Denying Air superiority to IAF, eliminate IAF fighters as much as possible while remaining inside or close to international border... In presence of SAMs it will pain for any AF who go inside enemy territory and attack its enemy's ground assets and take on enemy's fighters in the air.


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## Arsalan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Air to ground or anti ship attack----the plane doing the primary strike on the target would carry the primary strike weapons---smart bombs or anti ship missiles---extra fuel tanks and maybe two wvr missiles maybe not---it will only be loaded for the job at hand---support planes will have whatever is needed--bvr's wvr's etc etc---.
> 
> The pilot going in against an sea / ocean going target knows in his heart that he has already punched his one way ticket---he knows, he is not coming back---his goal is how to get to his target and deliver the weapons and destroy the enemy---he is concerned about enemy planes pouncing upon him----.
> 
> American f 16's delivering smart weapons during the gulf war had bare minimum defencive weapons load.





> originally posted by *PakSaheen*
> Correct,
> 
> Israeli F-16 were loaded without any defensive weapon in 1982 when they attacked Iraqi reactor in outskirts of Baghdad. Additional plane were there alongside with AA missiles.



but *sir MastanKhan* and *PakSaheen*, bro do you think that we have the luxury to conduct additional number of planes to escort the naval strike missions,,
i dont think so, if we need two or three squadrons of JF17 to cover our coast line we will nedd amlost same number to additional A2A role JF squadrons to protect them. sir mastan this wont only add to the purchasing cost but alos the maintainance and running cost will go high.
on the other hand we can have an easier and simpler solution if JF17 manage to increase on its hardpoints. i mean with 9 hardpoints, it can carry two fuel tanks, two BVRAAMS two WVRAAM and still have three slots left to be filled by either three AShM or two missiles and one additional fuel tank. i know this sounds a lot of pay load but with a more poerfull engine on card it is very likely to happen!

what do you think?? (PakSaheen and Sir. MastanKhan)

regards!


----------



## Schizophrenian

Frankly, I'm competely oblivious to the f-16 blk 70 you guys are talking about. A f-16 with AESA? Is that what it is?



> July 23, 2009 (by Asif Shamim) - Northrop Grumman Corporation's newest active electronically scanned array (AESA) fighter sensor, the Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR), has been successfully installed on a F-16 at Edwards Air Force Base.
> 
> 
> 
> The Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) from Northrop Grumman will be a full performance fire control Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) derived from proven AESA technology for F-16 aircraft. In November, SABR began a series of flight demonstrations aboard the company's test aircraft, successfully detecting and displaying multiple aerial targets and generating high resolution Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) ground maps.
> 
> "The fit-check completed on June 29, is another important milestone leading up to a planned F-16 flight demonstration later this year," said Arlene Camp, director of Advanced F-16 Radar Programs at Northrop Grumman's Aerospace Systems Division. "Installation took less than five hours and assessed SABR's design goals to integrate seamlessly within existing F-16 Block 50/52 physical constraints for interface to aircraft power, cooling, and avionics."
> 
> The aircraft was returned to original configuration after the installation evaluation.
> 
> "Northrop Grumman is the sole provider of radars for the F-16 and for over 30 years has continually improved the F-16 radar's performance and reliability. SABR is Northrop Grumman's latest investment towards enhancing and sustaining the F-16's combat capability for decades to come," added Camp.
> 
> Although designed specifically for the F-16, SABR is scalable and adaptable to other platforms and missions. In comparison to the mechanically-scanned array radars it is designed to replace, the new radar will provide increased performance, multi-functionality and greater reliability.
> 
> With a greater detection and tracking range, high-resolution SAR maps, and interleaved mode operations it will provide pilots with better situational awareness and all-environment precision strike capability.


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## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> but *sir MastanKhan* and *PakSaheen*, bro do you think that we have the luxury to conduct additional number of planes to escort the naval strike missions,,
> i dont think so, if we need two or three squadrons of JF17 to cover our coast line we will nedd amlost same number to additional A2A role JF squadrons to protect them. sir mastan this wont only add to the purchasing cost but alos the maintainance and running cost will go high.
> on the other hand we can have an easier and simpler solution if JF17 manage to increase on its hardpoints. i mean with 9 hardpoints, it can carry two fuel tanks, two BVRAAMS two WVRAAM and still have three slots left to be filled by either three AShM or two missiles and one additional fuel tank. i know this sounds a lot of pay load but with a more poerfull engine on card it is very likely to happen!
> 
> what do you think?? (PakSaheen and Sir. MastanKhan)
> 
> regards!



Actually you are correct about making thunder to carry more weapons. Ideally what we need a plane like JH-7A, F-18 like thing. Big beast twin engine with range and payload. In absence of such plane only possible way forward is to adopt similar formation which Israeli adopted during attack on Orisis reactor in 1982.


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## Patriot

Schizophrenian said:


> Frankly, I'm competely oblivious to the f-16 blk 70 you guys are talking about. A f-16 with AESA? Is that what it is?


F16 Block 60 is equipped with APG AESA Radar..However, PAF is getting F16 Block52 which is equipped with non-aesa radar.


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## Schizophrenian

Patriot said:


> F16 Block 60 is equipped with APG AESA Radar..However, PAF is getting F16 Block52 which is equipped with non-aesa radar.



yep, blk 52, and that's what USAF's been using. 
Damn saudis, they always got the good stuff


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## PakShaheen79

Schizophrenian said:


> yep, blk 52, and that's what USAF's been using.
> Damn saudis, they always got the good stuff



F-16 Block 60 with AESA are operated by UAE and not by Saudis. 

Thanks

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## Schizophrenian

Oop, I've did it again. I'm having a real hard time differentiating between them.


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## TOPGUN

Ok i wana ask this again > will our blk52's have the new shape or same old one ?


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## Patriot

New shape as they're equipped with CFT (Similar to Hellanic Air Force F16's or F161 of Israel Air Force)

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## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> Actually you are correct about making thunder to carry more weapons. Ideally what we need a plane like JH-7A, F-18 like thing. Big beast twin engine with range and payload. In absence of such plane only possible way forward is to adopt similar formation which Israeli adopted during attack on Orisis reactor in 1982.



yes, but dont you think it is the ideal case,, i mean setting eye on F18 or even JH7s will sort of detrack PAF future programmes. ft the moment there approach is clear one,,, get JF17 to support each and every mission and when you come up against something sort or high-end machines, call for FC20 and F16 blk52,,, 

as far as i can think, there is no other plne that will fit in the role, not atleast for the next 5 to 8 years to come as after that we would be done with JF17 and FC20 and with these platforms mature enogh to run smoothly, only then PAF may seek for a next generation plane or any new plane!! 

so to make the JF17 possible to fit in a wide range of routies job it surely need a powerfull engine and additional hardpoint, once it comes the problem we are disscussing will be resolved with out the need on any new bird like F18 or JH7!!
i hope you understand what i am saying! 

regards!


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## Arsalan

Patriot said:


> New shape as they're equipped with CFT (Similar to Hellanic Air Force F16's or F161 of Israel Air Force)



really?? 
i mean it is a new thing for me, conventionally the blk 52 do not come with CFT!!
i do not doubt your knowledge sir perhaps i must have missed it although i have here throughout the discussion.
can you kindly point me to some source!!
thanks in advance,,

regards!


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## Imran Khan

CFT is optional if we wana fix we fix otherwise remove and keep in store room.but these CFT kits are including order.

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## Arsalan

wow, now that was a rapid response sir!!
thanks a lot!!

regards!


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## Imran Khan

CFT fitted on the guns .a CTF have 300 to 600 gallons of feaul so its also reduce they waipons payload.If you look at the photograph you will see a dark panel which has quick release thumb latches and gives the weapons troop access to the gun. The panel looks dark because it is made of a mesh screen material to allow gun gasses to escape. Prior to installing a CFT the gun access door is actually removed.

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## Arsalan

good, it give you s possibility to carry more weapons in place of external fuel tanks!!
great,
sir it will decrease weapon payload but still it may well be able to carry two extra BVRAAMs as far as i can find. 

regards!

regards!


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## Imran Khan

yes specaly if it has F100-PW-220 ENGINE chance for more payload.as i think.


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## TOPGUN

imran khan said:


> CFT fitted on the guns .a CTF have 300 to 600 gallons of feaul so its also reduce they waipons payload.If you look at the photograph you will see a dark panel which has quick release thumb latches and gives the weapons troop access to the gun. The panel looks dark because it is made of a mesh screen material to allow gun gasses to escape. Prior to installing a CFT the gun access door is actually removed.



Cool so this is excatly how our new f-16's will look like?


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## Imran Khan

yes as we see block-52 of HAF .

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## martial20

As i have been to all post in this forums, i m very much surprised that we are proud of F-16 which were left by american airforce because they think these F-16 completed their duty cycle.

You can say they have retired these F-16 from their airforce, and instead of destroying these f-16, they sell these to countries like us and earned money from these retired one's.


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## Imran Khan

martial20 said:


> As i have been to all post in this forums, i m very much surprised that we are proud of F-16 which were left by american airforce because they think these F-16 completed their duty cycle.
> 
> You can say they have retired these F-16 from their airforce, and instead of destroying these f-16, they sell these to countries like us and earned money from these retired one's.



  

honestly my brother you have no idea what are you talking or you have no knoldge abut BLK-52 of falcons.do some reserch of basic facts and come back.we are talking here not used 30 years old AB but block-52 falcons which are even not yet started in assembly line.


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## martial20

imran khan said:


> honestly my brother you have no idea what are you talking or you have no knoldge abut BLK-52 of falcons.do some reserch of basic facts and come back.we are talking here not used 30 years old AB but block-52 falcons which are even not yet started in assembly line.



Dear Imran,

Thanks for your kind information. I m not talking to specific model of F-16, but to general F-16 of what Pakistan airforce using.

Another thing is that, we know that there will b the day when we should have to use these F-16 against their developers to defence our country from their bad intentions, but at that time these were of no use, this is pre-programmed that you can not use these fighter planes against their developers.

Then we have to think for better solution


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## Imran Khan

brother we have nothing more idea then our air cheaf in one of his interview he asked which fighter jet you think best for PAF .he answer F-16 block-50+

the fleet which we have in service its started to upgrade as same as block-52 also we have more then 26 years of experince maintanance spears and combats on falcons.after block-52 inducted and MLU finished our whole falcon fleet will become deadly sharp.one of the best fighter of world we have to proud on it 

block-52 can easly compear with j-10 EU fighter refale su-30 gripen etc

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## TOPGUN

martial20 said:


> Dear Imran,
> 
> Thanks for your kind information. I m not talking to specific model of F-16, but to general F-16 of what Pakistan airforce using.
> 
> Another thing is that, we know that there will b the day when we should have to use these F-16 against their developers to defence our country from their bad intentions, but at that time these were of no use, this is pre-programmed that you can not use these fighter planes against their developers.
> 
> Then we have to think for better solution



Well boss you can't always get wat you want in this world!  the f-16's we have i do admit are old but still effective forsure and inshallah with the mul's complete they will up to any new standard f-16! when you don't have choice left you have to play your cards right the US has forsure turned there back on us each and everytime i hope they don't do it to us this time with our new blk52's!


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## martial20

imran khan said:


> honestly my brother you have no idea what are you talking or you have no knoldge abut BLK-52 of falcons.do some reserch of basic facts and come back.we are talking here not used 30 years old AB but block-52 falcons which are even not yet started in assembly line.





TOPGUN said:


> Well boss you can't always get wat you want in this world!  the f-16's we have i do admit are old but still effective forsure and inshallah with the mul's complete they will up to any new standard f-16! when you don't have choice left you have to play your cards right the US has forsure turned there back on us each and everytime i hope they don't do it to us this time with our new blk52's!



TopGun,

I agreed but for test case, if our government just pause the operation and other things which US ordered, then you will see Pakistan will not get a penny from them. Just try it if we have any KHUSH FEHMI about them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Imran Khan

i have concern abut cancel or late the deal from long time but abut money whats happen in last time peace gate4 will never happen now because that birds we pay advanced and they already finished but not deleverd this time we play smart game you can't make fool us twise remember .


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## martial20

imran khan said:


> i have concern abut cancel or late the deal from long time but abut money whats happen in last time peace gate4 will never happen now because that birds we pay advanced and they already finished but not deleverd this time we play smart game you can't make fool us twise remember .



We play smart or not, Remember for these new incomming F-16, Pakistan didnt pay anything but the payment was deducted from the AID which we have to recieved on behalf of war againts terrorism.

So, we are not smart, but the Americans are, as they just deduct these money from thier AID.


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## Imran Khan

no my brother US aid 400mn$ will use for upgrade of old f-16s new 18 blk-52 will paid by GOP.its not aid at all.


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## martial20

imran khan said:


> no my brother US aid 400mn$ will use for upgrade of old f-16s new 18 blk-52 will paid by GOP.its not aid at all.



Dear Imran,

If you insist that these were purcahe by Pakistan, then i have to agree, but what i have got the news is that Pakistan got these New F-16s in terms of AID.


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## Imran Khan

*i will say read the contract to you*

36 New F-16 Block 50/52s - $3 billion

The package for Pakistan's new F-16s also includes: 
&#9632;36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft with either the F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs) and APG-68(V)9 radars;
&#9632;7 spare F100-PW-229 IPE or F110-GE-129 IPE engines;
&#9632;7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets;
&#9632;36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
&#9632;36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II;
&#9632;36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircraft's sides to give them extra range;
&#9632;36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; DID has covered the tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems;
&#9632;36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems;
&#9632;36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
&#9632;36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM;
&#9632;1 Unit Level Trainer;

Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability.

The principal contractors will be: 
&#9632;Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, TX;
&#9632;Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control, Dallas, TX;
&#9632;BAE Advanced Systems Greenlawn, NY;
&#9632;Boeing Corporation Seattle, WA;
&#9632;Boeing Integrated Defense Systems: St Louis, MO; Long Beach, CA; San Diego, CA;
&#9632;Raytheon Company: Lexington, MA; Goleta, CA;
&#9632;Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, AZ;
&#9632;Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX;
&#9632;Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD;
&#9632;United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT; or
&#9632;General Electric Aircraft Engines in Cincinnati, OH. There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support and program management of the aircraft.

Item 2: Weapons for F-16C/D Block 50/52 Aircraft - $650 Million

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:&#8226;500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);
&#8226;12 AMRAAM training missiles 
&#8226;these have seeker warheads, but lack engines;
&#8226;200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X;
&#8226;240 LAU-129/A Launchers 
&#8226;these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles;
&#8226;500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits;
&#8226;1600 Enhanced-GBU-12/24 GBUs;
&#8226;800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs;
&#8226;700 BLU-109 2000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse; and,
&#8226;Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares, and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications, and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability will also be provided.

The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $650 million. 

The principal contractors will be: 
&#9632;BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY;
&#9632;Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX;
&#9632;Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX;
&#9632;Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX; and,
&#9632;Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD. There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft.

Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits - $1.3 billion

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:


&#9632;APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar;
&#9632;Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
&#9632;AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
&#9632;AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
&#9632;Have Quick I/II Radios;
&#9632;Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT);
&#9632;SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
&#9632;Reconnaissance pod capability;
&#9632;Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (for training);

MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits;

&#9632;21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
&#9632;60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
&#9632;1 Unit Level Trainer;
&#9632;10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.

Also included are radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support. 

The estimated cost is $1.3 billion.

According to the DSCA, Pakistan intends to purchase the MLU Program equipment "to enhance survivability, communications connectivity, and extend the useful life of its F-16A/B fighter aircraft. The modifications and upgrades in this proposed sale will permit Pakistan's F-16A/B squadron to operate safely and enhance Pakistan's conventional deterrent capability. Pakistan's air fleet can readily use these updates to enhance and extend the life of its aircraft."

The principal contractors will be: 
&#9632;BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY;
&#9632;Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX;
&#9632;Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX;
&#9632;Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX; and,
&#9632;Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD.


Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR - $151 Million

The third contract involves Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million.

More specifically, the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of: 
&#9632;14 F100-PW-220E engines;
&#9632;14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits;
&#9632;De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft;
&#9632;Support equipment;
&#9632;Software development/integration;
&#9632;Modification kits;
&#9632;Spares, and repair parts;
&#9632;Flight test instrumentation;
&#9632;Publications and technical documentation;
&#9632;Personnel training and training equipment;
&#9632;U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program.

The principal contractors will be: 
&#9632;Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX; and,
&#9632;United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT.


Potential Controversies

The DSCA has said that "Release of this system would not significantly reduce India's quantitative or qualitative military advantage". India disagrees and military experts in Delhi will likely note that the same equipment (GPS, targeting pods, bunker-busters) that could potentially find uses against al-Qaeda terrorists in Pakistan's "lawless frontier" could also be used in precision strikes on India's military facilities in the event of war.

The DSCA counters that release of the F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft to Pakistan "will neither affect the regional balance of power nor introduce a new technology as this level of capability or higher already exists in other countries in the region". India does operate more advanced SU-30MKI aircraft with R-77 "AMRAAMski" missiles, advanced avionics, et. al.; these are superior in range, armament, and maneuverability to Pakistan's F-16s and will remain so. Meanwhile, India's $7-10 billion MRCA competition is certain to introduce 125-200 aircraft that are certain to be more advanced than the F-16 Block 50/52.

The U.S. DSCA adds in its submission to Congress that "The modification of the engines and Falcon UP/STAR structural updates will provide capable F-16s that can be used for close air support in ongoing operations contributing to the GWOT." The DSCA also cites the June 2004 designation of Pakistan as a Major Non-North Atlantic Treaty Organization Ally in its submission. The British commander of NATO's ISAF force in Southern Afghanistan sees Pakistan's role in a rather different light, however; he recently noted that al-Qaeda in Afghanistan is still run out of Pakistan (specifically Quetta), with Pakistani knowledge and even support from Islamist elements in its security apparatus. Ah, the dynamics of counter-insurgency in tribal societies. Pakistan angrily denies this, of course.

India's objections to this sale have been muted thus far, and phrased carefully to emphasize their effect on India-Pakistan ties rather than India-U.S. ties. Meanwhile, President Bush's personal diplomacy approach has fostered a strong relationship with Gen. Musharraf that is inclined to view such requests favourably as part of the U.S.A.'s 3-corner balancing act in the region. Barring unusual circumstances, therefore, it's reasonable to expect this sale to go through with little more than a concerned speech or two in Congress.

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## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> yes, but dont you think it is the ideal case,, i mean setting eye on F18 or even JH7s will sort of detrack PAF future programmes. ft the moment there approach is clear one,,, get JF17 to support each and every mission and when you come up against something sort or high-end machines, call for FC20 and F16 blk52,,,
> 
> as far as i can think, there is no other plne that will fit in the role, not atleast for the next 5 to 8 years to come as after that we would be done with JF17 and FC20 and with these platforms mature enogh to run smoothly, only then PAF may seek for a next generation plane or any new plane!!
> 
> so to make the JF17 possible to fit in a wide range of routies job it surely need a powerfull engine and additional hardpoint, once it comes the problem we are disscussing will be resolved with out the need on any new bird like F18 or JH7!!
> i hope you understand what i am saying!
> 
> regards!



Yeah I got actually I agree with you on this. I just gave example of JH-7A and F-18 as dedicated maritime strikers. I know we are not going to get them. Now If we look at FC-20... It fit perfectly in this picture as It has huge AL-31FN turbofan with high thrust and Payload + range. So I would not be surprised if these opted role of current Squadron 8


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## sonicboom

Accoring to Deccan Chronicle, Sep 20, 2009

Prior to Pakistans Swat campaign, about 10 F-16 aircraft equipped with high-resolution, infra-red sensors were provided by the US to conduct detailed reconnaissance of the entire Swat Valley. These may have already been used to spy on the Indian stretches along the international boundary. 

Is that true? Does any one know about this?

Pak?s tarnished credibility | Deccan Chronicle


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## Arsalan

martial20 said:


> As i have been to all post in this forums, i m very much surprised that we are proud of F-16 which were left by american airforce because they think these F-16 completed their duty cycle.
> 
> You can say they have retired these F-16 from their airforce, and instead of destroying these f-16, they sell these to countries like us and earned money from these retired one's.




bro the discussion going on is about the new blk 52z. perhaps you better take some pain and atleast view last couple of pages to get yourself familiar with topic and discussion rather then comming in, reading the last post and making comments.
as far as old F16 are considered they are not retired b USAF, it is no OPH frigate brother it is F16 and perhaps you may have listened something about MLU and STAR upgrade which will bring them on par with Blk 40+!!! 
again brother, no offense to you but my friendly request is that you beter care to go through the topic before posting comments, it will surely help you build your image! 

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

sonicboom said:


> Accoring to Deccan Chronicle, Sep 20, 2009
> 
> Prior to Pakistans Swat campaign, about 10 F-16 aircraft equipped with high-resolution, infra-red sensors were provided by the US to conduct detailed reconnaissance of the entire Swat Valley. These may have already been used to spy on the Indian stretches along the international boundary.
> 
> Is that true? Does any one know about this?
> 
> Pak?s tarnished credibility | Deccan Chronicle



Very few possibility to be true. Any movement of US F-16s in Pakistan would had been easily detected by Media.


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## Arsalan

martial20 said:


> Dear Imran,
> 
> If you insist that these were purcahe by Pakistan, then i have to agree, but what i have got the news is that Pakistan got these New F-16s in terms of AID.




no dear it is not about Sir Imaran Khan insisting you for the wrong, all he is trying to do is to present you with facts. 
perhaps there is a confusion here,
pakistan paid for blk 15 which were sanctioned, now we are getting them and some of there money in therer upgradation is provided by US aid progamme. as far as Blk 52 are concerned, Paksitan signed a deal od 36 F16 blk52 for which the government of pakistan had to pay! perhaps you are confusing with aid programmes as after the kashmir earthquake US acting on pakistans request shifted some of these payment to earthquake fund and thus agree to return the money of 18 planes for earthquake and give 18 planes instead of 36. many take it as a govrnment initiative to get rid of ever unreliable US reliance and when presented with opportuinity they bounced on it to get some money back and reduce F16, many also doubt this report.
i hopw you got it cleared now!

regards!


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## martial20

arsalanaslam123 said:


> no dear it is not about Sir Imaran Khan insisting you for the wrong, all he is trying to do is to present you with facts.
> perhaps there is a confusion here,
> pakistan paid for blk 15 which were sanctioned, now we are getting them and some of there money in therer upgradation is provided by US aid progamme. as far as Blk 52 are concerned, Paksitan signed a deal od 36 F16 blk52 for which the government of pakistan had to pay! perhaps you are confusing with aid programmes as after the kashmir earthquake US acting on pakistans request shifted some of these payment to earthquake fund and thus agree to return the money of 18 planes for earthquake and give 18 planes instead of 36. many take it as a govrnment initiative to get rid of ever unreliable US reliance and when presented with opportuinity they bounced on it to get some money back and reduce F16, many also doubt this report.
> i hopw you got it cleared now!
> 
> regards!



I got the point, but at the end of report, it is clearly mentioned that what was offer to Pakistan is below than what India has, and also what will be offer to India would be higher than what was offer to Pakistan??????

This is the 2 sided face of America that we claim ourselves as a partner in war against terrorism and what America is offering to us and the country which is our enemy what America is offering to them?


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## Imran Khan

DCNS reports always writes like this see every report to congrass its same like this .abut india USA is free to sell her arm to any one and India is free to buy arms from any one as a nation of 1 bn ppl.as a pakistani you have to know what you have options for buy arm and from were with which money.if we have $$$$$ we can go to refale EU fighter gripen not to USA its all matters of money not two or three faces.we already cut the deal of falcons and divert money to J-10 [FC-20}so you have no to worry abut india or US arms sale to any one.our future waipons for air force already moved to east 250JF-17 36 J-10 70+ f-16s and with mirages f-7PGs is much more for defend our country.also future posible j-11b or j-xx after 10 years .now tell me are we going wrong or we have lack of jets?

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## Storm Force

The Americans are beginning to deal with india at another level 

The presentations by both the f18sh teams & the f16ins have been very in depth and are being presented with promises of partial tech transfer and new international work shops for indiansd to build and service these fighters from accross the world.

ie like outsourcing 

The F18 team have even discussed 6th generation electronics upgrades to convince IAF that super hornet will remain viable well beyond 2025. 

None of these options are being made to Pakistan with this sort of fuss at this moment in time. 

PS regardless I stil think the indians will go with the Euro canard Rafael or Typhoon. Theres seems to be deep mistrust of obama regime in india.


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## Arsalan

martial20 said:


> I got the point, but at the end of report, it is clearly mentioned that what was offer to Pakistan is below than what India has, and also what will be offer to India would be higher than what was offer to Pakistan??????
> 
> This is the 2 sided face of America that we claim ourselves as a partner in war against terrorism and what America is offering to us and the country which is our enemy what America is offering to them?




well that another issue frined.
i just wanted to clear that excitment is about the blk 52 and not the old blk 15z! however i have not a slightest of doubt in my mind about the US biased behaviour toward us, i dont expect much good from there side,, infact i am really concerned that will we actually ever receive these planes!! 
so no arguments on this point brother! 

regards!


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## warlock21

Storm Force said:


> The Americans are beginning to deal with india at another level
> 
> The presentations by both the f18sh teams & the f16ins have been very in depth and are being presented with promises of partial tech transfer and new international work shops for indiansd to build and service these fighters from accross the world.
> 
> ie like outsourcing
> 
> The F18 team have even discussed 6th generation electronics upgrades to convince IAF that super hornet will remain viable well beyond 2025.
> 
> None of these options are being made to Pakistan with this sort of fuss at this moment in time.
> 
> PS regardless I stil think the indians will go with the Euro canard Rafael or Typhoon. Theres seems to be deep mistrust of obama regime in india.



Do u have any link to back this.....coz during NDA govt. regiem in India Boing team had come to india for setting up workshop for whole of asia... but tht was not meant for Fighter aircraft... tht was just for Commercial Boeing Jets... at tht time they have selected Land near Nagpur In maharastra... but nothing happened after tht...and wht u are saying is not appeared in any Indian media.


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## Arsalan

warlock21 said:


> Do u have any link to back this.....coz during NDA govt. regiem in India Boing team had come to india for setting up workshop for whole of asia... but tht was not meant for Fighter aircraft... tht was just for Commercial Boeing Jets... at tht time they have selected Land near Nagpur In maharastra... but nothing happened after tht...and wht u are saying is not appeared in any Indian media.



i gues he is refering to attractive deal that might come alon if SH wins the MMRCA contract. i guess it will be SH to win it as indian wont like to let loose there grip on US now and US have a lot to offer,,,

regards!


----------



## PakShaheen79

Storm Force said:


> The Americans are beginning to deal with india at another level
> 
> The presentations by both the f18sh teams & the f16ins have been very in depth and are being presented with promises of partial tech transfer and new international work shops for indiansd to build and service these fighters from accross the world.
> 
> ie like outsourcing
> 
> *The F18 team have even discussed 6th generation electronics upgrades to convince IAF that super hornet will remain viable well beyond 2025.
> *
> None of these options are being made to Pakistan with this sort of fuss at this moment in time.
> 
> PS regardless I stil think the indians will go with the Euro canard Rafael or Typhoon. Theres seems to be deep mistrust of obama regime in india.



6th gen upgrades...!!!!

What the hell these upgrades offer to SH as it already has a very powerful AESA and all other goodies?


----------



## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> 6th gen upgrades...!!!!
> 
> What the hell these upgrades offer to SH as it already has a very powerful AESA and all other goodies?



well they might be hoping for some super aircraft which is invisible to not only radars but also to naked eye evne when in visual range, 
and perhaps a speed of some MACH 6, missile proof air frame, onboard offensive laser assembly and what not!! 

regards!

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## Imran Khan

with range to moon and ploto and based in kala pani.


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## PakShaheen79

arsalanaslam123 said:


> well they might be hoping for some super aircraft which is invisible to not only radars but also to naked eye evne when in visual range,
> and perhaps a speed of some MACH 6, missile proof air frame, onboard offensive laser assembly and what not!!
> 
> regards!



LoLzzzzzzz

How an update in avionics can made a plane's air plane missile proof??


----------



## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> LoLzzzzzzz
> 
> How an update in avionics can made a plane's air plane missile proof??



ohhh you dont know them,,, they can do that at DRDO,, !!!

regards!

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

It is happening---the technology is available that changes the color of the body of the object in front of you to what is behind that object---it may not be invisible to the radar---but it may become invisible to the eye---in day time right in frontof us.

This stuf is what science fiction is made up of.


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## PakShaheen79

Hi MK,

I can understan ut how come Boeing is going to give this thing to India whereas it has not used it for yankis yet


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## warlock21

PakShaheen79 said:


> Hi MK,
> 
> I can understan ut how come Boeing is going to give this thing to India whereas it has not used it for yankis yet



Just like yankies Yet to get Poseidon... and we bought 8.... anything regarding 6th-Gen with F-18 is too much... if some one is saying is this.. then it is due to Helucination only...although the Guy who said this... still looking for Link to back his claim(s)


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## Skywalker

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is happening---the technology is available that changes the color of the body of the object in front of you to what is behind that object---it may not be invisible to the radar---but it may become invisible to the eye---in day time right in frontof us.
> 
> This stuf is what science fiction is made up of.



Mastan sb , I agree with you to a certain extent whatever seems to be fiction today would be a definite reality tomorrow. 

If anybody have seen the new knight rider tv series, it does the same thing as it is missile proof plus it changes the color as well, anyways it is still fiction but who knows what lies next. My two cents.


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## warlock21

Skywalker said:


> Mastan sb , I agree with you to a certain extent whatever seems to be fiction today would be a definite reality tomorrow.
> 
> If anybody have seen the new knight rider tv series, it does the same thing as it is missile proof plus it changes the color as well, anyways it is still fiction but who knows what lies next. My two cents.



well mostly New Technologies are invented for the purpose of War or meant for army are used in general day to Day life after some time.. best Example is Internet....regarding speilberg things..... I yet to see.. some close to... Mr. India.


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## Arsalan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is happening---the technology is available that changes the color of the body of the object in front of you to what is behind that object---it may not be invisible to the radar---but it may become invisible to the eye---in day time right in frontof us.
> 
> This stuf is what science fiction is made up of.



well it seem the idea came to you from a james bond moie where he was using an invesible car based on this prnciple. sir it is just a part of ficction tales so far but yes, if you waant to get some thing like star wars characters for you military it is high time to do it,, you see all that drone and Satellite Intelligence stuff isnt it all like starwars!

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

warlock21 said:


> *Just like yankies Yet to get Poseidon... and we bought 8*.... anything regarding 6th-Gen with F-18 is too much... if some one is saying is this.. then it is due to Helucination only...although the Guy who said this... still looking for Link to back his claim(s)



Are these Psdeiden with IN?


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## rajeev

F16IN - I really doubt will be much different. LM claims that they are most advanced that Pak has, but as far I see it to quote a paraphrase during US elections, "it is the same pig with a different lipstick".

Infact I think Pak will be in advantageous position if India only buys 126 F16 (in case F16s are choosen). Pak pilots have been playing with the toy for a long time and besides China would have reverse engineered some of these crafts and added new things to make more powerful flying machines.

But if India really wants to buy F16IN for the offered price of 18million a piece, they could very well buy in excess of 500+ for that price.


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## Haanzo

my question: what kind of refueling system will the MLU and blk 52 birds have ...can those birds be refueled using probe and drogue system or the boom system ......one more point i read that for an f-16 to use probe system it MUST have conformal fuel tanks....... what is the solution that PAF is going after ???


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## PakShaheen79

I dont know about rest but CFTs are also part of the deal. So refueling must not be a problem whichever system is being used on board.


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## fatman17

*6 Oct 1990* 

_The US embargoes F-16 deliveries to Pakistan, and a total of 28 Pakistan F-16A/B Block 15OCU aircraft are put in flyable hold storage in the Sonoran desert._


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## PakShaheen79

fatman17 said:


> *6 Oct 1990*
> 
> _The US embargoes F-16 deliveries to Pakistan, and a total of 28 Pakistan F-16A/B Block 15OCU aircraft are put in flyable hold storage in the Sonoran desert._



Sense of betrayal and being stabbed in the back is still there though date is exactly 19 years old now... Hope nothing similar will happen to new deal.


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## dbc

PakShaheen79 said:


> Sense of betrayal and being stabbed in the back is still there though date is exactly 19 years old now... Hope nothing similar will happen to new deal.



Wrong! You shot yourself in the foot on that one..


----------



## Arsalan

PakShaheen79 said:


> Sense of betrayal and being stabbed in the back is still there though date is exactly 19 years old now... Hope nothing similar will happen to new deal.



totally agree on that one friend,,,,
i wishwe had learned from our previous mistakes,,,
now have you listened about Obama postponing the signing of logar bill,,,
isnt it a sign of things to come,,??

regards!


----------



## PAFAce

PakShaheen79 said:


> Sense of betrayal and being stabbed in the back is still there though date is exactly 19 years old now...


It's just politics man. Nothing personal. No reason to feel "betrayed". Think of it this way; No embargo, no JF-17. Now, doesn't that make you happy?



Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Wrong! You shot yourself in the foot on that one..


How is that, ma'am?


----------



## Patriot

Haanzo said:


> my question: what kind of refueling system will the MLU and blk 52 birds have ...can those birds be refueled using probe and drogue system or the boom system ......one more point i read that for an f-16 to use probe system it MUST have conformal fuel tanks....... what is the solution that PAF is going after ???


PAF might acquire surplus KC-135 which US is going to retire soon and Block 52's will be equipped with CFT's so plenty of range even without refueling.


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## dbc

PAFAce said:


> It's just politics man. Nothing personal. No reason to feel "betrayed". Think of it this way; No embargo, no JF-17. Now, doesn't that make you happy?
> 
> 
> How is that, ma'am?


From another thread Re: It does not matter These people hate us


Death.By.Chocolate said:


> @AM,
> US non proliferation law was first introduced in 1961, in 1989, I suspect the Pakistani government was well aware that it risked billions of dollars in financial and military assistance including Peace Gate (F-16 purchase) if Pakistan ever delivered or received, acquired or transferred nuclear enrichment technology. At the time of placing the order for seventy one F-16s you had already acquired the capability, Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan said so in 1987, this was later corroborated by the Pakistan foreign secretary in 1992. F-16s and other advanced US weapons and billions of dollars of US assistance was the incentive on offer from the US Congress after assurances from both the US administration and Pakistani Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto that military assistance would address Pakistans security concerns and thereby keep Pakistan from acquiring the bomb. *Your Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto pledged that Pakistan neither had nor would develop nuclear weapons at a joint session with US congress in Washington in 1989.*
> Pressler amendment was Pakistan specific, it allowed President Reagan and Bush to continue providing weapons and financial assistance by certifying that Pakistan did not possess a nuclear device. Both were later accused by Senator John Glenn in 1992 of hoodwinking the US Congress and the American taxpayer. Under immense pressure and mounting evidence, President George Bush could no longer make the certification required by Presslers amendment and on October 6th, 1990 the US government embargoed further arms deliveries to Pakistan.
> Pakistan was aware of the risk it took placing the order in 1989, by the time Pakistan was sanctioned in Oct 1990 General Dynamics had already started work on building the F-16s worth 658m$ but the planes could not be delivered to Pakistan. The first batch of (Peace Gate III) eleven aircrafts were flown directly to AMARC (Aircraft Maintenance and Regeneration Center) at Davis-Monthan AFB, Arizona where they were put in 'Flyable Hold' later these were joined by seventeen more Peace Gate IV fighters. Since the government did not make a budget allocation for a refund of 658m$ the only choice was to find a buyer for the 28 F-16s in storage. A few years later and after several failed attempts at selling the planes, an agreement was reached with Pakistan in Dec 2008 to pay $326.9 million in cash and up to $140 million in other compensation to settle the eight-year dispute. The $140 million includes about $60 million in US white wheat. The remaining $80 million in compensation will be negotiated by the two sides. After reaching the agreement with President Clinton, your Prime Minister Mohammad Nawaz Sharif had this to say at a press conference the F-16 dispute has been resolved to the satisfaction of Pakistan. No accusations of theft, fraud or betrayal of trust  you obviously disagree; take it up with Mr Sharif.
> 
> It was your Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto and your officials that defrauded the American taxpayer off 6 billion $ in military sales and grants between 1982 and 1990 by pledging nuclear abstinence while being only a few screw driver turns away from a fully functional nuclear device.


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## Patriot

DBC, Don't be so innocent.Your government damn well knew we were building the bomb and i would even say Ronald Regan was great for Pakistan as he just ignored Pakistan Nuclear bomb and if you honestly believe CIA did not have any info about our bomb prior to President Certification then you're very naive.Well, in any case, Nuclear bomb was far more worthy then F-16 ever could be.Thanks to capable ISI..it kept US and its lackeys at one end and we managed to get nuclear bomb. In any case, sanctions resulted in a lot of good stuff, Mainly our Nuclear bomb..JF-17 and more indigenous stuff.Before that, Army was very much pro west.


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## hj786

Patriot said:


> PAF might acquire surplus KC-135 which US is going to retire soon and Block 52's will be equipped with CFT's so plenty of range even without refueling.



KC-135 is just a modified Boing 707. The PAF has operated 3 of these since 1986, 2 as cargo aircraft and the third as a VIP transport aircraft. They were even thinking of converting the cargo aircraft to aerial refuelling tankers according to an Air International article from 1987.


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## dbc

Patriot said:


> DBC, Don't be so innocent.Your government damn well knew we were building the bomb and i would even say Ronald Regan was great for Pakistan as he just ignored Pakistan Nuclear bomb and if you honestly believe CIA did not have any info about our bomb prior to President Certification then you're very naive.Well, in any case, Nuclear bomb was far more worthy then F-16 ever could be.Thanks to capable ISI..it kept US and its lackeys at one end and we managed to get nuclear bomb. In any case, sanctions resulted in a lot of good stuff, Mainly our Nuclear bomb..JF-17 and more indigenous stuff.Before that, Army was very much pro west.



No sir, Im not naïve and please dont confuse the US Administration with Congress. CIA reports its findings to the Oval office not Congress so it was easy for President Reagan to keep congress in the dark. But after Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan spilled the beans in 1987 it was political suicide for President Bush to sign the waiver required under Pressler amendment certifying Pakistan did not deliver or receive, acquire or transfer nuclear enrichment technology.

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## SSGPA1

Any news about arrival of new F-16s?


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## PakShaheen79

Death by Chocolate!
I think mounting evidence you are talking about here was just as solid as Powell presented to get approval to attack Iraq.

Fact of matter is it was all political game only mistake ISI made was to concudle Afghan "JIHAD" much too earlier than it should had. All this nuclear issue is total nonsense as US knew what we were upto.

It is amazing if Pakistani acquision of nuclear weapon is that much a problem how the hell same US congress approved 5.1 Billion deal for New F-16s and MLU. It is evident that there is a NEED once again. US once again need someone to win a war for it...that's why there is not a single word from so restrcit US congress.

This is hypocracy why we HATE US.


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## PAFAce

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> From another thread Re: It does not matter These people hate us


Let's forget for a second that that statement was made by a pro-US politician, in a country where politics is synonymous with lying.

Ma'am, the alternative was very scary. The choice was simple, either build nuclear deterrence, or risk being annihilated within the century. And what's more, we were lead to believe it is _okay_ as long as we were not harming global (read: American) interests. No country in this world would willingly leave their national defence at the mercy of other nations. It would have been unfair for anybody to ask that of us.

And despite all this, we kept the bombs under wraps until India left us no other choice in 1998. Doesn't that count for something? You may call that shooting ourselves in the foot, you have the right to do so. I'd rather shoot myself in the foot than get shot in the head. In any case, Pakistan was not the sole cause of the F-16 embargo. The US had much more to do with it. Particularly, American duality.

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## BATMAN

SSGPA1 said:


> Any news about arrival of new F-16s?



US has threatend Kiyani to forget about F-16, if he does not support Kerry logger bill. just learned from TV.

One question; why US is so keen to give aid? that they are planning to block F-16 if we refuse aid!

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## PakShaheen79

BATMAN said:


> US has threatend Kiyani to forget about F-16, if he does not support Kerry logger bill. just learned from TV.
> 
> *One question; why US is so keen to give aid? that they are planning to block F-16 if we refuse aid!*



Because there are clauses like

_1)- Pakistan will give access to any Pakistani civilian who US think has been involved in nuclear technology acquisition and/or proliferation._

Know what is this? Should we accept it... It is equal to give US access to any scientist or technician in our nuclear program.

_2)- There are also clauses like US will be consulted before promotions in armed forces. _

Know I think without my clarification one can guess this is how ISI,MI and IB will be toppled.May be armed forces themselves as well.

I think these two are enough to tell you whole story.

*NOTE:* These are not exact words from bill but crux of clauses related to national security is pretty much accurate in what i said above.


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## TOPGUN

Its a buy & give deal they give this in a sense buy us off as the above stated by Pakshaheen79 . These demands are incane they must be out of there damn minds to think we would wana go for these demands i already have lost some wat fate in our new f-16's bad news nothing good about it!!


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## fhassan

Best for Pakistan to reject the Bill, and F*** the F-16s

If it does not, It would be like prostitution.

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## BATMAN

PakShaheen79 said:


> Because there are clauses like
> 
> _1)- Pakistan will give access to any Pakistani civilian who US think has been involved in nuclear technology acquisition and/or proliferation._
> 
> Know what is this? Should we accept it... It is equal to give US access to any scientist or technician in our nuclear program.
> 
> _2)- There are also clauses like US will be consulted before promotions in armed forces. _
> 
> Know I think without my clarification one can guess this is how ISI,MI and IB will be toppled.May be armed forces themselves as well.
> 
> I think these two are enough to tell you whole story.
> 
> *NOTE:* These are not exact words from bill but crux of clauses related to national security is pretty much accurate in what i said above.



Recent appointments of Naval Cheif and Air force Cheif could very well be an advice from US to Zardari.
US can still dictate appointments through Zardari.
In presence of bill US don't have to lick Zardari's balls but in absence they have to afford Zardari.

If i would be Zardari than i would never accept this bill for my personal benifits.


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## SSGPA1

Well no F-16 is a bad news but I am sure that Pakistan will turn it into an opportunity like we did in the 90s (JF-17).

This is a diplomatic failure for the US because with all the aid, finacial and military, Pakistanis still hate them. I could have used the word 'dislike' but hate is more appropriate. 

It is a much bigger loss for the US and as Pakistan has other options.


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## PakShaheen79

BTW, I could not find that US threatening Kiyani news about F-16 if we not approve KL bill. Any source please.


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## qsaark

PakShaheen79 said:


> BTW, I could not find that US threatening Kiyani news about F-16 if we not approve KL bill. Any source please.


Dawn News.


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## PakShaheen79

qsaark said:


> Dawn News.



Opppss! Then it might be true.


----------



## dbc

PAFAce said:


> Let's forget for a second that that statement was made by a pro-US politician, in a country where politics is synonymous with lying.
> 
> Ma'am, the alternative was very scary. The choice was simple, either build nuclear deterrence, or risk being annihilated within the century. And what's more, we were lead to believe it is _okay_ as long as we were not harming global (read: American) interests. No country in this world would willingly leave their national defence at the mercy of other nations. It would have been unfair for anybody to ask that of us.
> 
> And despite all this, we kept the bombs under wraps until India left us no other choice in 1998. Doesn't that count for something? You may call that shooting ourselves in the foot, you have the right to do so. I'd rather shoot myself in the foot than get shot in the head. In any case, Pakistan was not the sole cause of the F-16 embargo. The US had much more to do with it. Particularly, American duality.



You&#8217;re in a rough neighborhood &#8211; I get it! I don&#8217;t begrudge you your nukes, although I&#8217;m not entirely convinced of its intrinsic value as a deterrent. 

My &#8220;shoot yourself in the foot&#8221; criticism was meant to highlight Pakistani contribution to the F-16 debacle. Starting with Benazir Bhutto, what Benazir Bhutto did in 1989 was akin to stepping on the gas in a school zone knowing a police officer was lurking in the shadows with a speed gun. 

Simple question to anyone who can answer, why did a smart women like Benazir place an order and pre-pay for 71 F-16&#8217;s in 1989 when she knew the risks &#8211; why not go for the Mirage 2K or equivalent non-US tech? Was she and PAF so enamored by the F-16&#8217;s that she gambled a fortune on a crapshoot? Clearly she miscalculated and yet no one here faults her for it. And then there is your former Chief Nuclear scientist Dr. Verbal Diarrhea (AQ Khan), this attention seeking narcissist blew the lid off Pakistan&#8217;s clandestine program in an interview to a London publication in &#8217;87 and for this he was anointed Nation Hero despite costing Pakistan several billions in US and Japanese aid. It is easy to blame Bush, IMHO he had no choice he wasn&#8217;t going to risk impeachment over F-16&#8217;s to Pakistan in his first term in office. 

No one is above the law; there may be extenuating circumstances the presence of an existential threat qualifies(Indian nukes) but Benazir closed that door when she told congress Pakistan did not need nukes if she was given F-16&#8217;s and other hi-tech weapons.

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## ejaz007

*NA begins debate on K-L bill *
Updated at: 2100 PST, Wednesday, October 07, 2009 


ISLAMABAD: National Assembly has commenced debating Kerry-Lugar bill late on Wednesday evening, Geo news reported.

The Leader of Opposition in lower house Chaudhry Nisar Ahmed started debate on the bill meanwhile, Federal Minister for Parliamentary Affairs Babar Awan informed House that PM Gilani has advised Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi, currently on US visit, to provide assembly details on the controversial points of bill.

He said all the points on the K-L bill will be thoroughly reviewed and all of its recommendations will be watchfully considered. 

NA begins debate on K-L bill

---------- Post added at 08:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 AM ----------

*Obama briefed on Pak political situation *
Updated at: 0635 PST, Thursday, October 08, 2009 


WASHINGTON: A key meeting was held to brief US President Barrack Obama on Pakistans Political situations. 

According to sources, US President were given briefing on Pakistans political situation regarding Kerry-Lugar (KL) Bill in the meeting held in White House. 

Top level military, intelligence and political official attended the meeting. 

Obama is considering to increase cooperation to counter Al Qaida. 

Meanwhile current situation in Afghanistan was also discussed in the meeting. 


Obama briefed on Pak political situation


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## MastanKhan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> You&#8217;re in a rough neighborhood &#8211; I get it! I don&#8217;t begrudge you your nukes, although I&#8217;m not entirely convinced of its intrinsic value as a deterrent.
> 
> My &#8220;shoot yourself in the foot&#8221; criticism was meant to highlight Pakistani contribution to the F-16 debacle. Starting with Benazir Bhutto, what Benazir Bhutto did in 1989 was akin to stepping on the gas in a school zone knowing a police officer was lurking in the shadows with a speed gun.
> 
> Simple question to anyone who can answer, why did a smart women like Benazir place an order and pre-pay for 71 F-16&#8217;s in 1989 when she knew the risks &#8211; why not go for the Mirage 2K or equivalent non-US tech? Was she and PAF so enamored by the F-16&#8217;s that she gambled a fortune on a crapshoot? Clearly she miscalculated and yet no one here faults her for it. And then there is your former Chief Nuclear scientist Dr. Verbal Diarrhea (AQ Khan), this attention seeking narcissist blew the lid off Pakistan&#8217;s clandestine program in an interview to a London publication in &#8217;87 and for this he was anointed Nation Hero despite costing Pakistan several billions in US and Japanese aid. It is easy to blame Bush, IMHO he had no choice he wasn&#8217;t going to risk impeachment over F-16&#8217;s to Pakistan in his first term in office.
> 
> No one is above the law; there may be extenuating circumstances the presence of an existential threat qualifies(Indian nukes) but Benazir closed that door when she told congress Pakistan did not need nukes if she was given F-16&#8217;s and other hi-tech weapons.






Hi,

You surprised me----you knew about Benazir paying cash for the F 16's---the F 16 debacle created by Benazir---.

I remember it like daylight---reading her comments in the pakistani paper at that time---before us others have asked for financing these planes---but us---we will pay cash upfront for these planes.

At time I told my friends---we are doomed---you never buy anything from u s on cash---and never upfront---always finance with a condition of big penalty and have a second alternative open.


It is shocking to see my pakistani friends still not understanding the F 16 fiasco---and accepting the fault---just because they gave us the leeway---didnot mean that we could get away with it.

That is why I have been talking about the switch over to the M2k at that time or even before in 83---84.

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## Stealth

ITs not a K-Bill its PKTKKB 

"Pakistan ko Taba karnay ka bill"


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## PakShaheen79

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Youre in a rough neighborhood  I get it! I dont begrudge you your nukes, although Im not entirely convinced of its intrinsic value as a deterrent.
> 
> My shoot yourself in the foot criticism was meant to highlight Pakistani contribution to the F-16 debacle. Starting with Benazir Bhutto, what Benazir Bhutto did in 1989 was akin to stepping on the gas in a school zone knowing a police officer was lurking in the shadows with a speed gun.
> 
> Simple question to anyone who can answer, why did a smart women like Benazir place an order and pre-pay for 71 F-16s in 1989 when she knew the risks  why not go for the Mirage 2K or equivalent non-US tech? Was she and PAF so enamored by the F-16s that she gambled a fortune on a crapshoot? Clearly she miscalculated and yet no one here faults her for it. And then there is your former Chief Nuclear scientist Dr. Verbal Diarrhea (AQ Khan), this attention seeking narcissist blew the lid off Pakistans clandestine program in an interview to a London publication in 87 and for this he was anointed Nation Hero despite costing Pakistan several billions in US and Japanese aid. It is easy to blame Bush, IMHO he had no choice he wasnt going to risk impeachment over F-16s to Pakistan in his first term in office.
> 
> No one is above the law; there may be extenuating circumstances the presence of an existential threat qualifies(Indian nukes) but Benazir closed that door when she told congress Pakistan did not need nukes if she was given F-16s and other hi-tech weapons.



Had it not been end of "Jihad" in Afghanistan in 1989 those 71 F-16 were bound to be in PAF once way or other. CIA\US administrations knew since beginning about Pakistani nuclear program and all this was used as an excuse like it is going to be used again to embargo current deal of 18 Block 52 if Pakistan reject KL bill.

Now I pray US put ban on these F-16 after Pakistan rejects this KL bill (which is nothing more than a vice to crush Pakistan nuclear program and to topple Pakistani military). If it happen now, it will really become difficult for current corrupt and ready made government to survive.

Latest development! There is an other bomb went near Indian embassy in Kabul few min back, I thing despite all the technologies of world there blame will be once again put on Pakistan. So things are moving in right direction.


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## nightrider_saulat

*if we reject K-L bill does it is going to effect TUSAS tender to upgrade our current fleet of f-16*


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## PakShaheen79

nightrider_saulat said:


> *if we reject K-L bill does it is going to effect TUSAS tender to upgrade our current fleet of f-16*



Don't know but one thing is for sure that all this so called Pak US relations are about arm twisting and bulling. Time for nation to get on its feet. 1.5 Billion dollar in total 24 Billion dollars annual budget is like a pennants. Out of this 1.5 Billion a good portion will fly back to US through contractors and NGOs.

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## nightrider_saulat

PakShaheen79 said:


> Don't know but one thing is for sure that all this so called Pak US relations are about arm twisting and bulling. Time for nation to get on its feet. 1.5 Billion dollar in total 24 Billion dollars annual budget is like a pennants. Out of this 1.5 Billion a good portion will fly back to US through contractors and NGOs.



*yeah i have now been fully out of the idea of new f-16 for PAF from US as i have now sense the side effects of having US friendship
now in my view PAF should go for first 50(block I) thunders within the end of 2010 and further 100 thunders of block II within before 2014
and not even think of buying j-10 from china because it will divert our effort from block II program for thunders​*


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Once the things start to un-ravel---they move at a lightening speed---non supply of the Blk 52 would be like a death blow to PAF---it will set us back by another 5 years---minimum---.

JF 17 blk 1 or 2 is no answer to blk 52---readers need to understand that some of this equipment, we must have now---to be on some kind of parity with our opponent---the procurement of the aircraft cannot be just simply delayed---millitaries of the world donot operate like that.

Blk 52 is a now thing---JF 17 1 and 2 are tomorrow's issues.

So---if people think that if the war had contd against russia---we would have had the F 16's---yes we 'may' have---that might have become a strategic issue for america---Bush senior may or maynot have vetoed the bill---Bush sr was a politically weaker and less savy president than Reagan---Bush had no political clout to vetoe the bill---there was a good chance that he would have signed the bill even at that time---.

This bill didnot come as a surprise to anyone----if that is what the pakistanis are thinking---nobody pulled a rabbit out of the hat---this bill was presented many many times---birght as a day light---and was rejected the same number of times but the last---the only fool in this scenario was the PAF heirarchy---it was their demand for the 'best of the best'---possibly Benazir wanted to please the millitary---Zardari could not have gotten anything out of it---because u s defence contractors donot pay any bribes according to the law---other than that rest of the world knew that the sanctions are coming on pakistan.

There is too much un-predictability in our weapons procurement---it needs to change---the mindset needs to be changed.


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## PakShaheen79

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Once the things start to un-ravel---they move at a lightening speed---non supply of the Blk 52 would be like a death blow to PAF---it will set us back by another 5 years---minimum---.
> 
> JF 17 blk 1 or 2 is no answer to blk 52---readers need to understand that some of this equipment, we must have now---to be on some kind of parity with our opponent---the procurement of the aircraft cannot be just simply delayed---millitaries of the world donot operate like that.
> 
> Blk 52 is a now thing---JF 17 1 and 2 are tomorrow's issues.
> 
> So---if people think that if the war had contd against russia---we would have had the F 16's---yes we 'may' have---that might have become a strategic issue for america---Bush senior may or maynot have vetoed the bill---Bush sr was a politically weaker and less savy president than Reagan---Bush had no political clout to vetoe the bill---there was a good chance that he would have signed the bill even at that time---.
> 
> This bill didnot come as a surprise to anyone----if that is what the pakistanis are thinking---nobody pulled a rabbit out of the hat---this bill was presented many many times---birght as a day light---and was rejected the same number of times but the last---the only fool in this scenario was the PAF heirarchy---it was their demand for the 'best of the best'---possibly Benazir wanted to please the millitary---Zardari could not have gotten anything out of it---because u s defence contractors donot pay any bribes according to the law---other than that rest of the world knew that the sanctions are coming on pakistan.
> 
> *There is too much un-predictability in our weapons procurement---it needs to change---the mindset needs to be changed*.



Agreed that's why China is only relible option as far as weapon systems are concenrned. 
PAF hierarchy was not that faulty but still they ignored Pak US previous history. (7th fleet of US Navy in 71 war, embargo after 65 war etc) Real fault was to not having a back up plan.
Afghan war was a strategicc oppertunity for US to topple Russians in Afghanistan... Pakistani leadership was not that Savvy about repercusions of unipoler world and that caused whole F-16 drama.

Problem is Pakistan is once again in catch-22 viz-a-viz Pak-US relations. I think EX-ACM of PAF has already said that F-16 deal is last one from US. 

As far as bbeing in parity with IAF, I don't think single squadron of F-16 Block 52 will do magic but still these machines are best PAF can get (if they ever reach here)...

Rest i can grantee that if war was not there after Mumbai I am not seeing it in next 5-7 years provided Pakistan keep avoiding traps like Kerry Lugar bill till that time.But Pakistan will have to work extreme hard in foreign relations till that time so that we can secure other critical defense deals like U-214 and Erieye.


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## Patriot

PAF should have never gone for F-17 Block52.Rafale or even Mirage200S-5 was a much better option.We could buy upto 50 Rafale (not buy any J10s) and later buy more when PAF have funds.

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## BATMAN

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You surprised me----you knew about Benazir paying cash for the F 16's---the F 16 debacle created by Benazir---.
> 
> I remember it like daylight---reading her comments in the pakistani paper at that time---before us others have asked for financing these planes---but us---we will pay cash upfront for these planes.
> 
> At time I told my friends---we are doomed---you never buy anything from u s on cash---and never upfront---always finance with a condition of big penalty and have a second alternative open.
> 
> 
> It is shocking to see my pakistani friends still not understanding the F 16 fiasco---and accepting the fault---just because they gave us the leeway---didnot mean that we could get away with it.
> 
> That is why I have been talking about the switch over to the M2k at that time or even before in 83---84.




Well Sir, I don't remember any thing from that time but now we know but this is too late.
In this senario best possible solution for PAF is to buy M2K retired from UAE! will you agree to this?


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## almasilyas

O c'mon guys don't say anything like this.....if they threatened us then believe me on the very next day their supply will be stop/shutdown .......can't you u see they need Pakistan to go back in their countries.........


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## PakShaheen79

almasilyas said:


> O c'mon guys don't say anything like this.....if they threatened us then believe me on the very next day their supply will be stop/shutdown .......can't you u see they need Pakistan to go back in their countries.........



In presence of present US installed government in Islamabad anything is possible. That is one reason for concern despite the fact that US again need Pakistan to win a war which US along with all world can't win in Afghanistan.


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## PakShaheen79

Patriot said:


> PAF should have never gone for F-17 Block52.Rafale or even Mirage200S-5 was a much better option.We could buy upto 50 Rafale (not buy any J10s) and later buy more when PAF have funds.



Dear time and again it has debated that this was not F-16 alone the sole reason but the weapons like AIM-120C5 which force PAF to go into this deal plus funding was also done by US, IIRC.


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## Taha Samad

RS4 said:


> Something to bear in mind is that the PAF have a very strong history and experiance with F16s, the F16 is combat proven where as the JF17 and J10 are not. Also the Blk 52 are exspensive but would give the Paf a High tech muti role capability which is very much what the PAF is looking for.



I totally agree with you.It would not be a good decision to add a new system to PAF and spend a lot of resources on associated infrastructure and stuff when we are already spending a lot of money in developing our capability to produce fighters locally.

Secondly PAF needed a high tech fighter in its inventory till 2015 when FC-20's take up that role(assuming FC-20 will be somewhat advanced than the blk 52 F-16's or atleast equivalent).

Now if we consider the numbers the importance of f-16's won't diminish even after FC-20's arrive

PAF got around 120 F-7P 
60 F-7PG
around 100-150 Mirages
40 odd A-5's
45 F-16's
i.e we need to replace around 260-320 aircrafts

Now as most reports suggest we would have first 50 JF-17's by 2011.After 2011 if we assume a rate of 25 planes per year as suggested by ACM in his interview that means by 2015 we would have 150 JF-17's. 
add to them 63 F-16's(MLU+blk 52) +36 FC-20's+60 F-7pG's that makes a total of 310 fighters.So we still would be operating around 100 odd fighters from the last century.So none the less f-16's would remain our top line fighter for almost one more decade.

regards,
taha


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## batmannow

*news alert, PAKISTAN GOT F-16 C& D , IN , USA*
duniya news!
just now!

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## Adios Amigo

woooooooooooooooooooooooow great, made us wait 4 a loong loong time to hear this good news.:


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## batmannow

*documents were handed over to , AIR CHIEF MARSHALL in a ceremony , in texas*

*GOD, its blk 52 , c & d, 16 aircrafts, will reach in JAN!*


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## Huda

where is the proper info


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## arsenal_gooner

F-16 rolling ceremoney to be held in Dallas today?
Tuesday, October 13, 2009
By Sami Abraham

Washington DC: The rolling out ceremony of first F-16 plane due to be handed over to Pakistan next year is set to be held in Lockheed Martin headquarter at Dallas Forth Texas on Tuesday. Chief of Pakistan Air Force Rao Qamar will be the chief guest.

Pakistan signed a contract with the United States in 2006 to get 18 new F-16 planes of C/D series. The F16 planes, present in PAF fleet, are being extensively used against extremists in Fata and Swat.

The 18 new aircrafts will be equipped with the state-of-art radar , Electronic Warfare system and long range air to air missile. Under this agreement Pakistan would also get its old F-16 aircrafts upgraded.


F-16 rolling ceremoney to be held in Dallas today?


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## Owais

I also heard that on dunya news. is the total of 18 New F16s arrived?


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## wangrong

pics please !

thank you!

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## batmannow

Owais said:


> I also heard that on dunya news. is the total of 18 New F16s arrived?



no, they said 16 in jan , other 2 will later.


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## Huda

ohhhhhhhh thts a gud news for all pakistani


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## DaRk WaVe

At last


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## Huda

can i suggest one community to u indians ki galt fahmi dur krni hai koi help krega

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## PAFAce

batmannow said:


> *news alert, PAKISTAN GOT F-16 C& D , IN , USA*
> duniya news!
> just now!


*batmannow*, sir jee, way to be on the ball. Thanks for the update.

I would really like something concrete, an article or a video will do fine. Our ACM was not in Texas for a vacation, we know that. I thought he was there because the Americans wanted to show Pak Forces their generous support if the Kerry-Lugar bill passed. Let's see if this offer stands if the Kerry-Lugar bill fails.We need these new F-16s.

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## abbasniazi

No doubt good news for PAF and all pakistanis.

i think these 18 F-16 block 52+ may not add significant punch to PAF capability but it will sure do one thing and that is the feeling of flying state of the art machine and observation of the changes which might have come to Aviation industry during the draught period of procurement by PAF.

pakistan should fly and train as many pilots as possible on these planes and should instantly order 18 more of these birds, and start to convince the USA for allowing pakistan to procure as many F-16s as possible from third parties and then upgrading them to latest blocks from both USA and Turkey.

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## moxin

batmannow said:


> no, they said 16 in jan , other 2 will later.



yeah heard it! very gud news for PAF.


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## batmannow

*Its not , that these AC going to make a huge difference in accordnce with our enemy's massive airforce, but surly it , is going to become signifficiant signal from US.
THIS right kind of gesture , will surly help defining new bright hights of PAKISTAN's relationship with USA.*

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## batmannow

PAFAce said:


> *batmannow*, sir jee, way to be on the ball. Thanks for the update.
> 
> I would really like something concrete, an article or a video will do fine. Our ACM was not in Texas for a vacation, we know that. I thought he was there because the Americans wanted to show Pak Forces their generous support if the Kerry-Lugar bill passed. Let's see if this offer stands if the Kerry-Lugar bill fails.We need these new F-16s.



wait dear sir, its still too early! but sure we will going get , nnew updates!


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## EagleEyes

The report is not credible. Find something more credible. There is no way we are going to get 18, and that too arrived in Pakistan today.

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## DaRk WaVe

WebMaster said:


> The report is not credible. Find something more credible. There is no way we are going to get 18, and that too arrived in Pakistan today.



every Channel is reporting it


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## batmannow

WebMaster said:


> The report is not credible. Find something more credible. There is no way we are going to get 18, and that too arrived in Pakistan today.



they are 4 in numbers , & WILL COME in jan next year, according to dam DUNIYA NEWS!
SIR,working on

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## EagleEyes

Well, that is more like it! ^


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## PAFAce

emo_girl said:


> every Channel is reporting it


Which channels exactly, ma'am?


batmannow said:


> they are 4 in numbers , & WILL COME in jan next year, according to dam DUNIYA NEWS!
> SIR,working on


Okay, this is confusing. What exactly are the news channels reporting? I can't find anything on Geo or Dawn News websites. From your previous posts, here's what I gather: 

_The delivery of the first 16 F-16 Block 52s will begin in January, and 4 will arrive in the first batch. The papers have been handed over to Chief of Air Staff in a ceremony in Texas. _

Is that what is being reported?



gubbi said:


> Didnt you just say good bye to the USA? Just earlier today on the other thread? And what new bright heights are you talking about now?
> Lol there are many such contradicting posts by many members here - a classic love hate relationship with the 'devil' USA!!
> Just an interesting observation.


No it's not interesting. This is the definition of intentional derailment and flame-baiting. Why would you do this, *gubbi*?
*Post reported*. No need to reply to it.


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## gubbi

PAFAce said:


> *batmannow*, sir jee, way to be on the ball. Thanks for the update.
> 
> I would really like something concrete, an article or a video will do fine. Our ACM was not in Texas for a vacation, we know that. I thought he was there because the Americans wanted to show Pak Forces their generous support if the Kerry-Lugar bill passed. Let's see if this offer stands if the Kerry-Lugar bill fails.We need these new F-16s.



What exactly has KLB to do with the delivery of those F16s? KLB has already been passed by both the houses in US, only the POTUS has to sign it. Does this bill have to pass in Pakistani parliament for the GoP to accept the aid money?
Btw, Didnt Pakistan already pay for those F16s way back then? And only 18 aircrafts? Weren't there more?

*:Mod Edit:*


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## TOPGUN

We need proof of this news i haven't seen it on any Pakistani news channel or us?


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## Student

Source: F-16 rolling ceremoney to be held in Dallas today?



Tuesday, October 13, 2009
By Sami Abraham

Washington DC: The rolling out ceremony of first F-16 plane due to be handed over to Pakistan next year is set to be held in Lockheed Martin headquarter at Dallas Forth Texas on Tuesday. Chief of Pakistan Air Force Rao Qamar will be the chief guest. 

Pakistan signed a contract with the United States in 2006 to get 18 new F-16 planes of C/D series. The F16 planes, present in PAF fleet, are being extensively used against extremists in Fata and Swat. 

The 18 new aircrafts will be equipped with the state-of-art radar , Electronic Warfare system and long range air to air missile. Under this agreement Pakistan would also get its old F-16 aircrafts upgraded.

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## Student

Source: Lockheed Martin Unveils First New F-16 for Pakistan in Ceremony Attended by Air Force Chiefs 

FORT WORTH, Texas, Oct. 13 TX-LMT-Pakistan-F-16 FORT WORTH, Texas, Oct. 13 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT) unveiled the first of 18 new F-16s being produced for Pakistan in ceremonies today at its Fort Worth, Texas, facility. Officials including the Chiefs of Staff of the U.S. and Pakistan Air Forces were on hand to witness the event. Air Chief Marshal Rao Quamar Suleman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force (PAF), accepted the first F-16 Block 52 aircraft on behalf of his nation. Also present were Husain Haqqani, Pakistan's Ambassador to the United States, and other senior officials. The U.S. government was represented by Rep. Kay Granger, Texas 12th District, and Gen. Norton Schwartz, Chief of Staff of the Air Force. "Peace Drive is the flagship of modernization for Pakistan's Air Force. It is the latest configuration of the best 4th generation multirole fighter available in the world today," said John Larson, vice president of F-16 programs for Lockheed Martin. The aircraft order is designated as "Peace Drive I," continuing a long tradition of naming F-16 international sales programs with the word Peace. The program raises the total number of F-16s ordered by Pakistan to 54. The Pakistan Air Force received its first F-16, in the Block 15 F-16A/B configuration, in 1982. Pakistan has been operating Lockheed Martin aircraft since 1963, when it received C-130B airlifters. The Peace Drive I order is for 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds, all powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engine. The first aircraft - a two-seat F-16D model - will be delivered to the U.S. government (as agent for Pakistan in the Foreign Military Sales process) in December, with the remainder following in 2010. The F-16 is the choice of 25 nations. More than 4,400 aircraft have been delivered worldwide from assembly lines in five countries. The F-16 program has been characterized by unprecedented international cooperation among governments, air forces and aerospace industries. Major upgrades to all F-16 versions are being incorporated to keep the fleet modern and fully supportable over the aircraft's long service life. Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin is a global security company that employs about 140,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products and services. The corporation reported 2008 sales of $42.7 billion.

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## jawadqamar

wangrong said:


> pics please !
> 
> thank you!



Lockheed Martin, Hellenic Air Force Celebrate Inauguration Of Newest Advanced F-16 Fighter

In this Picture Lt. Gen. Ioannis Giagkos, chief of the Hellenic Air Force General Staff, accepted the first Peace Xenia IV F-16 Block 52 advanced aircraft

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## Locked

Why are you all so happy, don't you think ur country should be treated better? I mean the blk 52 is a plane which even the damn Polish Air force possesses, wht is the fuss abt? US isn't treating u like a major ally! But instead of being critical u people r getting very happy :?

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## batmannow

Student said:


> Source: Lockheed Martin Unveils First New F-16 for Pakistan in Ceremony Attended by Air Force Chiefs
> 
> FORT WORTH, Texas, Oct. 13 TX-LMT-Pakistan-F-16 FORT WORTH, Texas, Oct. 13 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT) unveiled the first of 18 new F-16s being produced for Pakistan in ceremonies today at its Fort Worth, Texas, facility. Officials including the Chiefs of Staff of the U.S. and Pakistan Air Forces were on hand to witness the event. Air Chief Marshal Rao Quamar Suleman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force (PAF), accepted the first F-16 Block 52 aircraft on behalf of his nation. Also present were Husain Haqqani, Pakistan's Ambassador to the United States, and other senior officials. The U.S. government was represented by Rep. Kay Granger, Texas 12th District, and Gen. Norton Schwartz, Chief of Staff of the Air Force. "Peace Drive is the flagship of modernization for Pakistan's Air Force. It is the latest configuration of the best 4th generation multirole fighter available in the world today," said John Larson, vice president of F-16 programs for Lockheed Martin. The aircraft order is designated as "Peace Drive I," continuing a long tradition of naming F-16 international sales programs with the word Peace. The program raises the total number of F-16s ordered by Pakistan to 54. The Pakistan Air Force received its first F-16, in the Block 15 F-16A/B configuration, in 1982. Pakistan has been operating Lockheed Martin aircraft since 1963, when it received C-130B airlifters. The Peace Drive I order is for 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds, all powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engine. The first aircraft - a two-seat F-16D model - will be delivered to the U.S. government (as agent for Pakistan in the Foreign Military Sales process) in December, with the remainder following in 2010. The F-16 is the choice of 25 nations. More than 4,400 aircraft have been delivered worldwide from assembly lines in five countries. The F-16 program has been characterized by unprecedented international cooperation among governments, air forces and aerospace industries. Major upgrades to all F-16 versions are being incorporated to keep the fleet modern and fully supportable over the aircraft's long service life. Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin is a global security company that employs about 140,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products and services. The corporation reported 2008 sales of $42.7 billion.



DEAR student!
great work , you are becomming , goldenboy here day by day!

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## SSGPA1

I would hold celeberations till these birds 'actually' arrive in Pakistan.

Lets not forget some of our previous F-16s are some where in an AF yard.

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## owais.usmani

Guys, Guys, please hold on a second!

Certainly it is a great day for PAF but we must also be careful in reporting the facts correctly and not just relying on Pakistani TV channels only for facts.

Let me make this clear: 

*PAF will NOT, repeat NOT be transferred any F-16 block 52 aircraft in January 2010*

Here I am quoting from the Written Statement of Vice Admiral JeffreyWieringa, USN Director, Defense Security Cooperation Agency Before the House Committee on Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia 16 September 2008.



> The first LOA providing for the production of eighteen F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft is underway: four aircraft will be ready in June 2010; four aircraft in August 2010; five aircraft in October 2010; four aircraft in Dec 2010; and, one aircraft in December 2011.



*I would recommend you all to read this document completely and carefully. It will answer all your questions about Pakistan's current F-16 purchase from USA * 

Written Statement of Vice Admiral JeffreyWieringa, USN Director, Defense Security Cooperation Agency Before the House Committee on Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia 16 September 2008

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## batmannow

WebMaster said:


> Well, that is more like it! ^


SIR, 
golden boy(student) did it!
he provided the sources, & i guss we can make it official!


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## Kompromat

*Aah At las Uncle SAM  Has done anything For PAK.

Good news .... lets get some Talibans !!*


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## Omar1984



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## HAIDER

well Pak and US can't live without one another...they have arguments but US keep Pak engage in constructive dialogue...Its Pakistani politicians who don't know how earn and learn from US experience in different fields of science and technology.I wish our politicians pull best US universities in Pakistan.

But thanks to US govt and US people who still help us in bad times.

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## jawadqamar

*Inauguration of first BLK-52 F-16D aircraft *

KARACHI, Oct 13 (APP): The First Block-52 F-16D aircraft of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) rolled out on Tuesday at a ceremony held at Lockheed Martin Aeronautics (LM Aero) facility at Dallas - Fort Worth, Texas USA. An ISPR (PAF) press release issued here on Tuesday evening said that the Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force, attended the ceremony as the chief guest.

It said that Pakistan had signed a contract with US Government in September 2006 for supply of 18 Block-52 F-16 C/D aircraft from M/s LM Aero. 

These state-of-the-art F-16s will bolster PAF&#8217;s fleet of high tech combat aircraft and will enable it to undertake wide variety of missions across the entire spectrum of operations.

After completion of testing and integration of the new system, the first batch of F-16 C/D aircraft is scheduled to arrive in Pakistan in June 2010, and the delivery of all 18 F-16s is planned to complete by December 2010.

Speaking on the occasion, ACM Rao Qamar Suleman said that this programme has seen many ups and downs since signing of the contract. The rollout of the first aircraft shows that the programme is on track. 

Besides CAS PAF, the ceremony was also attended by Ms Kay Granger (Member US House of Representatives), Gen Norton Schwartz (Chief of Staff USAF), General David H Petraeus, Commander CENTCOM, Hussain Haqqani (Ambassador of Pakistan to the US), Ralph Heath (President LM Aero), John Larson (VP F-16/F-2/T-50 Programmes) and other distinguished guests from the US Government, LM Aero and the Government of Pakistan.


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## HAIDER

Locked said:


> Why are you all so happy, don't you think ur country should be treated better? I mean the blk 52 is a plane which even the damn Polish Air force possesses, wht is the fuss abt? US isn't treating u like a major ally! But instead of being critical u people r getting very happy :?


PAF been working on this plane since 80s and what polish got is some low graded planes. These planes are NON NATO STANDARD, which only Isreal has (In short, these planes can judge between NATO and enemy plane,plus can see NATO planes on their radar). These F16 are proven deadly in combat zone. Rest of Pak neighbor has high tech Russian . Which according to manufacturer far superior then latest F16, but still can't say anything when its not battle proven.Russian machines more like acrobatic machines,rather real combat zone killers.

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## Ababeel

Can anyone tell me if these birds are capable of taking on Su-30 MKI?
What is there RADAR detection range, speed etc.
Detail answer please.


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## Owais

Ababeel said:


> Can anyone tell me if these birds are capable of taking on Su-30 MKI?
> What is there RADAR detection range, speed etc.
> Detail answer please.



surely an MKI killer


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## DaRk WaVe

PAFAce said:


> Which channels exactly, ma'am?



Dunya TV, ATV, News 1 & Sama TV

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## DaRk WaVe

Ababeel said:


> What is there RADAR detection range, speed etc.
> .


*F-16 Block 50/52/60*
The latest Fighting Falcons rolling off the Lockheed Martin's production line in Fort Worth, Texas, are advanced Block 50/52 and lately, Block 60 versions. These production series represent the largest configuration change in the F-16 history, offering additional fuel and payload capacity, new or improved avionics and sensors, color cockpit displays with enhanced pilot/vehicle interfaces. Nine countries have already ordered Advanced Block 50/52/60 F-16s, including the USA, Greece, Israel, UAE, Chile and Poland, The lead customer for Block 52 was the Hellenic Air Force which will receive all its 50 new F-16s in 2004. 30 additional aircraft, plus options for 10 were ordered by the Greek government In December 2005, with deliveries scheduled for 2009. The Israeli Air Force will receive its first F-16Is in February 2004 and the last of the 102 aircraft is scheduled%

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## DaRk WaVe

*APG-68(V)9 Radar for Block 50/52 F-16* 

The Israeli Soufa F-16I, and Hellenic F-16 Block 52s are equipped with the latest version of Northrop Grumman APG-68 radar, the (V)9 multimode fire control radar that offers improved detection range and resolution. Only the Block 60 aircraft, destined for the UAE, are to be equipped with a more advanced version &#8211; the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar. Initially, the Israelis favored the local Elta EL/M-2032 fire control radar originally developed for the IAI Lavi, but encountered financial and political obstacles. The IAF decided to use an improved model of the F-16 radar, and was involved in the specifications definition phase of the new version. It was later been selected by most of the latest acquisitions &#8211; by Poland and Greece. The new version uses new, Commercial Off The Shelf (COTS) technology that provided faster processors that provide increased throughput, with x5 faster processing speed and x10 growth in memory capacity over the current version. With the powerful processing capability, the new system has a high resistance to electromagnetic interference and countermeasures and future growth potential. The system offers new and improved capabilities in both air/air and air/ground modes, primarily in the operation at long range (BVR) and target rich airspace. *The APG-68(V)9 offers 30 percent increase in detection range, improved search-while-track mode (four vs. two tracked targets) and larger search volume and improved track while scan performance. Its single target track performance has also been improved.*

On air/ground missions, the new radar becomes an effective sensor, utilizing its high-resolution synthetic aperture radar mode, which allows the pilot to locate and recognize tactical ground targets from considerable distances. Although previous radars had some Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) capabilities, the new version generates imagery-class (2 feet resolution) high resolutions pictures, comparable to pictures delivered by the most modern commercial satellites. These pictures can be acquired from very long range, at all weather conditions and provide an effective, real-time source for the targeting of long range, precision guided weapons. The radar also has increased detection range in sea surveillance mode, and enhanced ground moving target identification and mappinc capability. The radar features an inertial measurement unit that improves dynamic tracking performance and provides an auto-boresight capability, which increases accuracy.
APG-68(V)9 Radar for Block 50/52 F-16











*F100-PW-229*
The F100-PW-229 is the most mature Increased Performance Engine (IPE) available and is the engine of choice for air forces worldwide. It is very much a new engine, with approximately 20 percent to 30 percent parts commonality with the F100-PW-200. It is the only IPE engine operationally matured in both the F-15E and F-16 Block 52 aircraft. Using technology developed from the F119 and F135 engine programs for the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II, the current production PW-229 incorporates modern turbine materials, cooling management techniques, compressor aerodynamics and electronic controls. Under takeoff conditions this engine can produce 28,500 pounds of thrust wet and 17,000 pounds dry. Selected by Israel for its F-16I fighter, South Korea for its F-15K Slam Eagle. 



*
GBU-31 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM)*
The Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) is a "joint" (hence the name) United States Air Force and United States Navy program that utilizes a guidance kit that converts existing unguided gravity bombs, or "dumb bombs", into all-weather "smart" munitions. JDAM equipped bombs are guided to their target by an integrated inertial guidance system coupled with a Global Positioning System (GPS) receiver for enhanced accuracy, giving them a published range of up to 15 nautical miles (28 km) from the release point. The program's approach was in contrast to earlier laser-guided bomb and imaging infrared technology, both of which can be hindered by adverse ground and weather conditions; however, laser designators are now being fitted to some JDAMS as well, because of their suitability for attacking certain types of targets.

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## sonicboom

The first aircraft, a two-seater F-16D, will be delivered to the U.S. government, acting as an agent for Pakistan in the foreign military sales process, in *December*. *The remaining aircraft will be delivered in 2010.*


Lockheed Martin unveils F-16 for Pakistan - Fort Worth Business Press

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## batmannow

emo_girl said:


> *APG-68(V)9 Radar for Block 50/52 F-16*
> 
> The Israeli Soufa F-16I, and Hellenic F-16 Block 52s are equipped with the latest version of Northrop Grumman APG-68 radar, the (V)9 multimode fire control radar that offers improved detection range and resolution. Only the Block 60 aircraft, destined for the UAE, are to be equipped with a more advanced version  the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar. Initially, the Israelis favored the local Elta EL/M-2032 fire control radar originally developed for the IAI Lavi, but encountered financial and political obstacles. The IAF decided to use an improved model of the F-16 radar, and was involved in the specifications definition phase of the new version. It was later been selected by most of the latest acquisitions  by Poland and Greece. The new version uses new, Commercial Off The Shelf (COTS) technology that provided faster processors that provide increased throughput, with x5 faster processing speed and x10 growth in memory capacity over the current version. With the powerful processing capability, the new system has a high resistance to electromagnetic interference and countermeasures and future growth potential. The system offers new and improved capabilities in both air/air and air/ground modes, primarily in the operation at long range (BVR) and target rich airspace. *The APG-68(V)9 offers 30 percent increase in detection range, improved search-while-track mode (four vs. two tracked targets) and larger search volume and improved track while scan performance. Its single target track performance has also been improved.*
> 
> On air/ground missions, the new radar becomes an effective sensor, utilizing its high-resolution synthetic aperture radar mode, which allows the pilot to locate and recognize tactical ground targets from considerable distances. Although previous radars had some Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) capabilities, the new version generates imagery-class (2 feet resolution) high resolutions pictures, comparable to pictures delivered by the most modern commercial satellites. These pictures can be acquired from very long range, at all weather conditions and provide an effective, real-time source for the targeting of long range, precision guided weapons. The radar also has increased detection range in sea surveillance mode, and enhanced ground moving target identification and mappinc capability. The radar features an inertial measurement unit that improves dynamic tracking performance and provides an auto-boresight capability, which increases accuracy.
> APG-68(V)9 Radar for Block 50/52 F-16



*simlpy GREAT!emo_gril, MAM, shahiba*
i never expected this, from you! its a stunner for me
lets say & wish, you will be here for US, even you will have , 14 kids & a GIANT husband!
you have, SOUL of a great soldier!

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## nightrider_saulat

*in the past i have always considered this jet much more needed over other jets 
and now even time has now proved that our air force
needs this jet even much more then any other jets like M2K and J-10
thanks america for hearing over our need*


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## Student

HAIDER said:


> well Pak and US can't live without one another...they have arguments but US keep Pak engage in constructive dialogue...Its Pakistani politicians who don't know how earn and learn from US experience in different fields of science and technology.I wish our politicians pull best US universities in Pakistan.
> 
> But thanks to US govt and US people who still help us in bad times.



US is not giving these plane for free. We have paid in cold hard cash. Help and support is what US provides Israel where it highly subsidizes the military hardware and civil aid twenty folds to what US ever gave to Pakistan and that to without any strings attached. Yes Pakistani Politicians and Military Dictators have not worked for the benifit of the people rather there own ulterior motives. We the people of Pakistan are not against US but against the US meddeling in our Internal affairs.

US never helped us in bad times. remember pressler ammendments etc.

Anyways the F-16 C&D's are surely welcomed.

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## air marshal

Congrats to all

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## batmannow

Student said:


> US is not giving these plane for free. We have paid in cold hard cash. Help and support is what US provides Israel where it highly subsidizes the military hardware and civil aid twenty folds to what US ever gave to Pakistan and that to without any strings attached. Yes Pakistani Politicians and Military Dictators have not worked for the benifit of the people rather there own ulterior motives. We the people of Pakistan are not against US but against the US meddeling in our Internal affairs.
> 
> US never helped us in bad times. remember pressler ammendments etc.
> 
> Anyways the F-16 C&D's are surely welcomed.



*GOLDEN BOY!*
JUSTadding a bit, with your permission!
yes they have to show to the TAXPAYERS , that they are doing , whtever they can!
but cant understand , why canT? they can give us THE "DAM DAZY CUTTERS"

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## owais.usmani

​
*Air Chief Marshal Rao Quamar Suleman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force delivering his remarks after the first F-16D block 52 aircraft was unveiled at Lockheed Martins, Fort Worth facility on October 13, 2009. [Photo by Lockheed Martin]​*

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## owais.usmani

*Peace Drive I - First F-16 unveiled​*
October 13, 2009 (by Laurie Quincy) - Lockheed Martin unveiled the first of 18 new F-16s being produced for Pakistan in ceremonies today at its Fort Worth, Texas, facility. Officials including the Chiefs of Staff of the U.S. and Pakistan Air Forces were on hand to witness the event.

Air Chief Marshal Rao Quamar Suleman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force (PAF), accepted the first F-16 Block 52 aircraft on behalf of his nation. Also present were Husain Haqqani, Pakistan's Ambassador to the United States, and other senior officials.

The U.S. government was represented by Rep. Kay Granger, Texas 12th District, and Gen. Norton Schwartz, Chief of Staff of the Air Force.

"Peace Drive is the flagship of modernization for Pakistan's Air Force. It is the latest configuration of the best 4th generation multirole fighter available in the world today," said John Larson, vice president of F-16 programs for Lockheed Martin.

The aircraft order is designated as "Peace Drive I," continuing a long tradition of naming F-16 international sales programs with the word Peace. The program raises the total number of F-16s ordered by Pakistan to 54. The Pakistan Air Force received its first F-16, in the Block 15 F-16A/B configuration, in 1982. Pakistan has been operating Lockheed Martin aircraft since 1963, when it received C-130B airlifters.

The Peace Drive I order is for 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds, all powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engine. The first aircraft  a two-seat F-16D model  will be delivered to the U.S. government (as agent for Pakistan in the Foreign Military Sales process) in December, with the remainder following in 2010.


Courtesy of Lockheed Martin



Peace Drive I - First F-16 unveiled


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## dbc

RIP MKI

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## F-16.Net

owais.usmani said:


> ​
> *Air Chief Marshal Rao Quamar Suleman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force delivering his remarks after the first F-16D block 52 aircraft was unveiled at Lockheed Martins, Fort Worth facility on October 13, 2009. [Photo by Lockheed Martin]​*



latest photo and article courtesy of F-16.Net


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## Beskar

Great news for PAF! I even heard on the news that the first Block-52 has been handed over to the Pakistan Air Force. However, after this transaction of Block-52's is complete, Pakistan should gradually shift its focus on the upcoming Chinese hardware. We already have a 4.5 generation fighter deal with them in the pipeline and I believe we should explore our options more in the International market and stop relying on the American equipment. 

We cannot afford to trust America with the newer platforms because of the usual delays and sanctions. Take a look at our AH-1 Cobra fleet for example. We've been cannibalizing them due to lack of spare parts and upgrades. I know this for a fact that Pakistan is also running out of its Cobra's 20mm chain gun ammo (something which POF doesn't manufacture) and US has still not responded to this urgent requirement by the Pakistan Army Aviation. Now we're planning to contact Turkish Arms Industry for this particular item. Problems like these will continue to haunt us in the future if we keep relying on the American equipment. The dependency on the US will keep costing us in future as well so it's better to get top-of-the-line equipment from other sources.

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## sonicboom

Deleted...


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## MAB

Well this news is good to hear. not too excited though of course i will be way more happy when I see them in Pakistan.


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## Kharian_Beast

Buying from America in smaller yet fruitful amounts (like Peace Drive and this entire 18 Block 52 plus 18 option deal) with a lot of spares and missiles is good. But remember the few hundred JDAM's and AIM's will run out at one time or other in the medium term future and either more will have to be bought from the US directly, Pakistan could access knowledge into the F-16 manufacturing process as the line is closing in the US after this deal and Turkey already has had access to such knowledge for years. Pakistan simply should be able to make Block 52's at her discretion as per the realization of what we have been doing in the WoT and regional balance requirements. India is well on her way to a monstrous airforce with complete TRANSFER OF TECH and will no doubt end up with 400+ 4.5 gen birds (Su30 + MRCA) and if PAF is left more than 4 times below IAFs capability then people in Pakistan are in big trouble.

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## insight-out

This is of course good news for PAF and Pakistan. But I am a little surprised at the level of excitement in this forum. Its not like we built these planes. 

To be honest, I would be happier if we slowly tried to disengage ourselves from the Americans, in every possible way, including the purchase of defense equipment. Of course that is a long way off as the Americans still produce some of the best stuff, and we are a long way from achieving that level of technology. I would rather buy from someone else if given the choice.

Let me put it this way. Doing business with a guy who's burning my house and killing my friends is at best a necessary evil. Its good, but I'm not too excited.


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## iioal malik

after a long time good news..Qamar says F-16s to strengthen Pak-US ties - GEO.tv KARACHI: Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleman has said the provision of F-16s D aircraft will make US-Pakistan ties rather stronger, Geo news reported.

This he said while addressing the rolling out ceremony of F-16s aircraft to Pakistan here in Dallas city of US&#8217;s state of Texas on Tuesday.

According to sources, the First Block-52 F-16D aircraft of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) rolled out on Tuesday at a ceremony held at Lockheed Martin Aeronautics (LM Aero) facility at Dallas - Fort Worth, Texas USA. 

An ISPR (PAF) press release issued here on Tuesday evening said that the Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force, attended the ceremony as the chief guest. 

It said that Pakistan had signed a contract with US Government in September 2006 for supply of 18 Block-52 F-16 C/D aircraft from M/s LM Aero. 

These state-of-the-art F-16s will bolster PAF&#8217;s fleet of high tech combat aircraft and will enable it to undertake wide variety of missions across the entire spectrum of operations.


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## sonicboom

Pakistan F-16 taxing in front of the Lockheed Martin assembly plant - 9/29/2009 11:49AM

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## SMC

Pardon my ignorance, but how is F-16 C/D that PAF is getting compared to MKI? Any info and comparison of F-16 C/D BVR vs MKI BVR?


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## Beskar

Nice image, Sonicboom. But the flag on the tail looks Photoshopped.

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## sonicboom

Pakistan F-16 Flying over Fort Worth, Texas 9/29/2009 12:07PM

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## sonicboom

Bezerk said:


> Nice image, Sonicboom. But the flag on the tail looks Photoshopped.



Very smart, but these are real pictures which I got from my contact. I should be getting more pics soon.


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## Beskar

sonicboom said:


> Very smart, but these are real pictures which I got from my contact in Lockheed Martin. I should be getting more pics soon.



I'm not doubting your source. But to an average person, the flag on the tail looks photoshopped. And pretty much all the photoshopped images are low in resolution to deceive the viewer. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't they supposed to deliver the birds without any markings and insignias? I'm pretty sure our AF workshops handle all the markings and flags on the newly procured aircraft.

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## gubbi

Bezerk said:


> I'm not doubting your source. But to an average person, the flag on the tail looks photoshopped. And pretty much all the photoshopped images are low in resolution to deceive the viewer. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't they supposed to deliver the birds without any markings and insignias? I'm pretty sure our AF workshops handle all the markings and flags on the newly procured aircraft.



I read somewhere that the plant making any fighter aircraft for any foreign customers first paints these aircraft in USAF colors and hands them over to USAF (a clause in the FMS program?). The aircraft are then transferred to the foreign country, and once over there get a new paint scheme and roundels!
I know that happens with Israeli aircraft, read it somewhere.


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## HAIDER

Student said:


> US is not giving these plane for free. We have paid in cold hard cash. Help and support is what US provides Israel where it highly subsidizes the military hardware and civil aid twenty folds to what US ever gave to Pakistan and that to without any strings attached. Yes Pakistani Politicians and Military Dictators have not worked for the benifit of the people rather there own ulterior motives. We the people of Pakistan are not against US but against the US meddeling in our Internal affairs.
> 
> US never helped us in bad times. remember pressler ammendments etc.
> 
> Anyways the F-16 C&D's are surely welcomed.



Well its Pak politicians disability, they unable to create working relationship with US. Our politicians always look for hard cash support for their personal benefits.
Second, US providing these F16 on subsidize price. US is not charging full price for these planes. Otherwise Pak can't even buy 10 Rafale from france. If they willing to sell, thats another issue.


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## sonicboom

Bezerk said:


> I'm not doubting your source. But to an average person, the flag on the tail looks photoshopped. And pretty much all the photoshopped images are low in resolution to deceive the viewer. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't they supposed to deliver the birds without any markings and insignias? I'm pretty sure our AF workshops handle all the markings and flags on the newly procured aircraft.



What defines the high resolution for you? Each Picture is more than 2MB and when uploaded in the forum albumn, it reduced the resolution to 96K.


Regards
*
:Mod Edit:*


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## qsaark

Bezerk said:


> I'm not doubting your source. But to an average person, the flag on the tail looks photoshopped. And pretty much all the photoshopped images are low in resolution to deceive the viewer. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't they supposed to deliver the birds without any markings and insignias? I'm pretty sure our AF workshops handle all the markings and flags on the newly procured aircraft.


Bezerk, please follow the link. This will take you to the Flightglobal website. It is bit difficult to entirely reject a photo appeared on the FG website. But you are right, so far there are no high resolution pictures available.

PICTURES: Lockheed Martin unveils first F-16 Block 52 ordered by Pakistan

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## qsaark

> Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't they supposed to deliver the birds without any markings and insignias? I'm pretty sure our AF workshops handle all the markings and flags on the newly procured aircraft.


I think marking and flags are done at the LM facility. Following is a picture of PAF's embargoed F-16s stored at Davis-Monthan AFB. These F-16s never landed on any airbase in Pakistan but they have the markings and the flags visible.



Source: http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item41204.html

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## Beskar

Calm down, Sonicboom. 

I simply shared my concerns as a "Graphic Designer". Due to the low quality of the pictures, it's quite hard to determine if the image is original or altered. But some of the contrast and levels were just not matching with the base. I never said that your source altered the image, I simply shared my opinion as a professional, that's all. I only said that it might be a PS job, didn't say it was a 100&#37; fake. 

Secondly, you did not post the high resolution images in the thread. How am I supposed to guess their original file size? I'd suggest you post them in their original file size. 

And please control your unnecessary outburst next time.


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## Beskar

qsaark said:


> I think marking and flags are done at the LM facility. Following is a picture of PAF's embargoed F-16s stored at Davis-Monthan AFB. These F-16s never landed on any airbase in Pakistan but they have the markings and the flags visible.
> 
> 
> Source: http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item41204.html



Not sure what the SOP was back then, but that how we received our recent F-16s;

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## EagleEyes

The photo looks good and real to me.


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## sonicboom

Bezerk said:


> Calm down, Sonicboom.
> 
> I simply shared my concerns as a "Graphic Designer". Due to the low quality of the pictures, it's quite hard to determine if the image is original or altered. But some of the contrast and levels were just not matching with the base. I never said that your source altered the image, I simply shared my opinion as a professional, that's all. I only said that it might be a PS job, didn't say it was a 100&#37; fake.
> 
> Secondly, you did not post the high resolution images in the thread. How am I supposed to guess their original file size? I'd suggest you post them in their original file size.
> 
> And please control your unnecessary outburst next time.



Lol, outburst, I did not see one. I was just trying to clarifying my position.

Anyway, thanks to Webby's instructions, I just uploaded the high resolution images. Do you want me to post them here in thread too? Please advise.


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## Beskar

sonicboom said:


> Anyway, could you please tell me how to upload high resolution? The only way I could do was to upload the pics first in members albumn which limited the resolution.



You can try uploading the image on a free image share website like imageshack, tinypic and leave the resolution settings to default. That'll work.


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## Beskar

Just noticed that you uploaded them in your profile album. 

Try uploading them in the main gallery; 

Main Index - Pakistan Defence Gallery


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## TexasJohn

Bezerk said:


> I'm not doubting your source. But to an average person, the flag on the tail looks photoshopped. And pretty much all the photoshopped images are low in resolution to deceive the viewer. *Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't they supposed to deliver the birds without any markings and insignias?* I'm pretty sure our AF workshops handle all the markings and flags on the newly procured aircraft.



Sorry bud, but I have to agree with Sonic. I live in Arlington ( maybe 12 miles from Sonic) and have lived in this town since 1979, back when LM was General Dynamics. The plant is right outside Carswell AF base (ANG now) and I have watched several export customer's birds fly out wearing their own colors. Yessir, seen many a Star of David ( and many other nations' insignia) flyimg over Carswell!!

General Dynamics gives tours and yes, you do see different countries colors on the lines. Israel used to have their own section for themselves!!

I can understand Sonic's frustration. I don't think they were directed at you though. The plant does hand out promotional glossies from various Air Forces flying the Viper. It's good business.

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## EagleEyes

Upload in the gallery or email me at webmaster @defence.pk. Its not that hard. Come on. We are waiting.


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## sonicboom

Bezerk said:


> Just noticed that you uploaded them in your profile album.
> 
> Try uploading them in the main gallery;
> 
> Main Index - Pakistan Defence Gallery



Thanks to Webby. I have already uploaded the high resolution images. Now should I repost them here in the thread? Please advise.


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## Beskar

Thanks for the clarification, TexasJohn. 

Refer to post # 70 in this thread. That was the reason for my confusion.


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## EagleEyes

sonicboom said:


> Thanks to Webby. I have already uploaded the high resolution images. Now should I repost them here in the thread? Please advise.



Upload here 

Login - Pakistan Defence Gallery

Quick.


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## sonicboom

WebMaster said:


> Upload in the gallery or email me at webmaster @defence.pk. Its not that hard. Come on. We are waiting.



Here are the links for the images:

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## Beskar

sonicboom said:


> Here are the links for the images:
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/gallery/uploads/14562/F09-72914.jpg
> 
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/gallery/uploads/14562/F09-72926.jpg



Now that's more like it. If only you would've posted these before.  

Pictures approved! 

(Webby, I think we found the new pictures you were looking for. Add them up in rotation)


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## sonicboom

Bezerk said:


> Now that's more like it. If only you would've posted these before.
> 
> Pictures approved!
> 
> (Webby, I think we found the new pictures you were looking for. Add them up in the rotation)



Hopefully (no promise), should have more pictures tomorrow as they were still processing the pictures today.


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## EagleEyes

How did you upload those? They are not in the gallery. Main Index - Pakistan Defence Gallery


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## sonicboom

WebMaster said:


> How did you upload those? They are not in the gallery. Main Index - Pakistan Defence Gallery



I just followed your link the one you sent me via email but failed to select the category and by default they went into Memeber Galleries.
Login - Pakistan Defence Gallery


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## SSGPA1

sonicboom said:


> I just followed your link the one you sent me via email but failed to select the category and by default they went into Memeber galleries.
> Login - Pakistan Defence Gallery



Any clue on their ETA in Pakistan?


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## EagleEyes

December 2009 or January 2009 according to the press reports. By the way, i have resized them and uploaded. They were too big and crashed the server.

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## PAFAce

Incredible pictures, *sonic*. Keep 'em coming bro. I, too, shared *Bezerk*'s original skepticism. The color of the flag and insignia seemed too bright and vivid compared to the rest of the image, but the hi-res looks fantastic. What can I say, can't wait until January. I'm planning on coming down to Pak in March, so hopefully, I'll see one of these birds live in the sky on the 23rd. If not, well, these pics are going on my desktop anyway.


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## PakShaheen79

Very beautiful pictures indeed. So when the delivery completed i think it must be Dec. 2010 or Jan 2011?


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## fatman17

WebMaster said:


> The report is not credible. Find something more credible. There is no way we are going to get 18, and that too arrived in Pakistan today.



they will be delivered in 4 batches of 4, plus 2 by the end of 2011. the a/c u see on the home-page will undergo 2-3 months of flight trials to ensure everything works properly before actual physical hand-over in Jan-10. additionaly at least 8 PAF pilots will undergo familiarization training in the US before they fly the birds to Sargodha or Shabaz AFB.

check the serial no of the a/c 10801
10 stands for 2010 and 801 is the production/ID no of the a/c. it will go upto 818

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## fatman17

*First F-16D for PAF unveiled in US*

KARACHI: The first F-16D aircraft for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was unveiled at a ceremony at Lockheed Martin&#8217;s aeronautic facility in Dallas. An ISPR statement issued on Tuesday said Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman was the chief guest.

It said Pakistan had signed a contract with the US in September 2006 for the supply of 18 F-16-C and D aircraft from Lockheed Martin. The state-of-the-art F-16s would bolster PAF&#8217;s fleet of combat aircraft and enable it to undertake a wide variety of missions. 

After testing, the first batch of F-16-C and D aircraft is scheduled to arrive in Pakistan in June 2010, and the delivery of all 18 F-16s would be completed by December *2010*. The PAF chief said the programme had seen many ups and downs since the signing of the contract. The rollout of the first aircraft showed that the programme was on track, he added. 

*app*

shd read Dec-2011 in my opinion!


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## eastandwest

i don't get it, isn't Pakistan pro Chinese?

so won't there be some possibility that Pakistan will give Chinese government our secret, what is our government thinking?

or perhaps F22 is just to advance that U.S doesn't care about f16 anymore


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## EagleEyes

eastandwest said:


> i don't get it, isn't Pakistan pro Chinese?
> 
> so won't there be some possibility that Pakistan will give Chinese government our secret, what is our government thinking?
> 
> or perhaps F22 is just to advance that U.S doesn't care about f16 anymore



What do you mean by pro-Chinese dear Indian?

It is business.

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## The Warrior

*yeah well Im eager to clear misunderstanding of indianz abt PAKISTAN, There is no match for PAKISTAN,,, *


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## Tomahawk

At last we had a chance to look at our new F-16 C/D Block 52...They look great.


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## blain2

For those interested in a brief news report from the US on PAF F-16s being rolled out.

Yahoo!

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## eastandwest

WebMaster said:


> What do you mean by pro-Chinese dear Indian?
> 
> It is business.



i'm not Indian, and I'm more than happy to see that Pakistani government came to embrace U.S, but still i'm a little worried of a non-U.S ally country possessing U.S technology


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## Stealth

Frankly speaking nutthing special... these 18 F16s nuthing for us...

We have internal problems which made by Afghanistan Side.
We dont need these F16s because thse F16 cant do anything in our current situation

1st. US Leave Afghanistan
2nd. Stop terrorism by India (closed Indian consulats in Afghanistan).
3rd. Stop Fundin by other Agencies from Afghanistan as well

If anything happen going above points we really dont need these F16s Today if we have 1000 F16s from US today i bet these Weapons cant do anythin and out situation never gonna better with these kind of F16s. 

nuthing speaking if US want to sell 1000 F16s (even without string) but whats left If funding continue from Afghanistan to those organization (so called Talibans TTP).

Weapons never Stop TERRORISM!

Put pressure on US that LEAVE AFGHANISTAN ASAP!


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## blain2

eastandwest said:


> i'm not Indian, and I'm more than happy to see that Pakistani government came to embrace U.S, but still i'm a little worried of a non-U.S ally country possessing U.S technology



Pakistan has operated US technology since the late 50s. Its nothing new and these F-16s are not trend-setting given that PAF was one of the first Airforces in Asia to receive F-16s back in 83-4 time frame.

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## sonicboom

eastandwest said:


> i'm not Indian, and I'm more than happy to see that Pakistani government came to embrace U.S, but still i'm a little worried of a non-U.S ally country possessing U.S technology



Your point is well taken. Now let the US Goverenment and the Congress decide what's best for the country. If you still have concern, then I would suggest that you call your Congress man/woman to protest.

By the way Webby can easily tell your location based on your IP address in case you did not know.

Good luck!


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## eastandwest

sonicboom said:


> Your point is well taken. Now let the US Goverenment and the Congress decide what's best for the country. If you still have concern, then I would suggest that you call your Congress man/woman to protest.
> 
> By the way Webby can easily tell your location based on your IP address in case you did not know.
> 
> Good luck!




so much hostilities..........

Nevertheless, i'm not worried about you Pakistani owning F16, but instead worried about you Pakistani giving the info of F16 to China, and these worried does make some sense judging that we still have hundreds of F16 operating in my country(although they are soon to be replace with F35). 




To be honest i care more about when Batman 3 is coming out than about Pakistan or any other country in the Middle East, and that's not just my view, it's most of American's view, American public is sick of going into wars, but sadly our government think that securing oil and petro-dollar is far more important. 






And lastly IP address will only prove my point that i'm not an Indian, because right now i'm surfing web in my house, which is in California


So best luck to Pakistan


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## Kompromat

Sweet as !!

Where are the Conformal Fuel Tanks ?? can anyone explain please


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## DaRk WaVe

sonicboom said:


> Pakistan F-16 taxing in front of the Lockheed Martin assembly plant - 9/29/2009 11:49AM





sonicboom said:


> Pakistan F-16 Flying over Fort Worth, Texas 9/29/2009 12:07PM



Mwahhh 

At last we have it 

Annihilate everyone who tries to enter out Skies


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## Owais

sonicboom said:


> Here are the links for the images:



no CFT? looks ugly without CFT


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## EagleEyes

No CFTs because range may not be the priority. We got them like the Greeks.

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## Gin ka Pakistan

Is Pakistan getting BVRs with it too.


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## marcos98

WebMaster said:


> No CFTs because range may not be the priority. We got them like the Greeks.



yup, will look just like this, good for PAF

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Great good addition for our Brave FALCONS ....

4 MORE (F-16)

On top of 12 more JF17 Thunders that will be added to Pakistan Airforce ....end of year


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## TOPGUN

Well looks real to me i hope so lol ! love these beauties mashallah!


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## MZUBAIR

eastandwest said:


> i don't get it, isn't Pakistan pro Chinese?
> 
> so won't there be some possibility that Pakistan will give Chinese government our secret, what is our government thinking?
> 
> or perhaps F22 is just to advance that U.S doesn't care about f16 anymore



Its really funny.......when 2 nations contract on defence deals they initially design contract document and secure their credientials before finalizing deals.

So its impossible that Pakistan will share anything to china. Nither they will like to do, that will disturb Pak US relations.


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## MZUBAIR

eastandwest said:


> so much hostilities..........
> 
> Nevertheless, i'm not worried about you Pakistani owning F16, *but instead worried about you Pakistani giving the info of F16 to China, and these worried does make some sense judging that we still have hundreds of F16 operating in my country(although they are soon to be replace with F35). *
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest i care more about when Batman 3 is coming out than about Pakistan or any other country in the Middle East, and that's not just my view, it's most of American's view, American public is sick of going into wars, but sadly our government think that securing oil and petro-dollar is far more important.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And lastly IP address will only prove my point that i'm not an Indian, because right now i'm surfing web in my house, which is in California
> 
> 
> So best luck to Pakistan



I told u its impossible......every country secure its doubts in contract documents. Its impossible.....

Its a funny propoganda like we had upon US harpoons technology.

I batter suggest u to study about contract mgmt.
If US would hav ever doubt they will never offer us deal.


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## MZUBAIR




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## MZUBAIR

MZUBAIR said:


>



PAF already paid for these aircrafts...thats good news


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## IceCold

MZUBAIR said:


>



Bharat ka khalaf istamaal nahi hoon ga? hmmmm interesting times ahead

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## DaRk WaVe

IceCold said:


> Bharat ka khalaf istamaal nahi hoon ga? hmmmm interesting times ahead



 

Sirf us waqt Bharat ke kelaf istemal hon ge jab Bharat koi panga kre ga...

Anyways Congrats to All

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## arihant

emo_girl said:


> Sirf us waqt Bharat ke kelaf istemal hon ge jab Bharat koi panga kre ga...
> 
> Anyways Congrats to All




Panga to tum lete ho har yude me.


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## DaRk WaVe

arihant said:


> Panga to tum lete ho har yude me.



What ever man 

Any protest by India

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

emo_girl said:


> What ever man
> 
> Any protest by India




Probbly the usual complaints by Indian Mirchi media 

Head Line 1 

"Pakistani .... Air force , destabalizes the delicate balance of power 
in region , with ... 4 great new fighter planes F16"

Head Line 2

"Pakistani - Airfroce , shows its agressive nature by inducting 4 new 
fighters, bharati security ko , dangerous .... situation ka SAMANA "

Headline 3
" Manmohan Singh ki sleepless nights , are the new F16 fighter planes
equiped with BVR missiles ??? , Manmohan Singh going to UN to protest " 


NOW BHARAT must buy ... 50000 new fighters to counter the 4 planes that pakistan got would be conclusion of the media news 

Bharati Mirchi media

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## blueoval79

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Probbly the usual complaints by Indian Mirchi media
> 
> Head Line 1
> 
> "Pakistani .... Air force , destabalizes the delicate balance of power
> in region , with ... 4 great new fighter planes F16"
> 
> Head Line 2
> 
> "Pakistani - Airfroce , shows its agressive nature by inducting 4 new
> fighters, bharati security to , dangerous .... situation ka SAMANA"
> 
> Headline 3
> " Manmohan Singh ki sleepless nights , are the new F16 fighter planes
> equiped with BVR missiles ??? "
> 
> 
> NOW BHARAT must buy ... 50000 new fighters to counter the 4 planes that pakistan got would be conclusion of the media news
> 
> Bharati Michi media




Nopes...these tag lines are reserved for Pakistan media......

Remember the week India inaugurated INS Arihant...... Pakistan media reaction was something like this:

Arrival of the Arihant
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect...encounter/indias-arihant-and-our-response-989


Regarding Pakistan Getting F16....the reaction in India is like this:

fullstory

First of 18 F-16D combat aircraft for Pakistan rolls out

Pak rolls out F-16 combat jets


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## raveolution

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> NOW BHARAT must buy ... 50000 new fighters to counter the 4 planes that pakistan got would be conclusion of the media news
> 
> Bharati Mirchi media



Lol... probably true.. since 4 F16's=280 MKI's and 8 JF17 Basic= 200 MRCA. We need those 50,000 NOW!!! LOL


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## MZUBAIR

*Till 2010/11*

PAF 
50 to 70 - JF-17
55 - F-16 (all upgraded to Block 52)
8 to 10 - J-10B
80 Mirage ROSE III
55 F- 7PG
______________________

Not a bad fleet to counter 150 MKI, 60-80 MIG 29 and 45 Mirage 2K till 2010 / 11.
_*(Keeping in mind, Indian Air force is designed to defend from PAF & PLAAF)*_

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## Sargodhian_Eagle

In pics, F-16 is not fitted with Conformal Fuel Tanks. Are they not comming with AC?


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## Sargodhian_Eagle

Supply of F-16s to PAF will unbalance the region. They will be used against India. Their delivery must be stoped otherwise Hafiz Saeed n Taliban will hi-jack these F-16s.

Indian Propegenda


----------



## blueoval79

Sargodhian_Eagle said:


> Supply of F-16s to PAF will unbalance the region. They will be used against India. Their delivery must be stoped otherwise Hafiz Saeed n Taliban will hi-jack these F-16s.
> 
> Indian Propegenda




Nopes...these tag lines are reserved for Pakistan media......

Remember the week India inaugurated INS Arihant...... Pakistan media reaction was something like this:

Arrival of the Arihant
DAWN.COM | Encounter | India?s Arihant and our response


Regarding Pakistan Getting F16....the reaction in India is like this:

fullstory

First of 18 F-16D combat aircraft for Pakistan rolls out

Pak rolls out F-16 combat jets


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## Kompromat

WebMaster said:


> No CFTs because range may not be the priority. We got them like the Greeks.



Sir HAF has got F16's Block 52's with Conformal Fuel tanks , please see below . Can you help with any Technical differences between CFT's platform and the one we just saw Roling out .
I know IAF operates both versions with CFT's and Without them too.
Regards:


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## Stealth

MZUBAIR said:


> *Till 2010/11*
> 
> PAF
> 50 to 70 - JF-17
> 55 - F-16 (all upgraded to Block 52)
> 8 to 10 - J-10B
> 80 Mirage ROSE III
> 55 F- 7PG
> ______________________
> 
> Not a bad fleet to counter 150 MKI, 60-80 MIG 29 and 45 Mirage 2K till 2010 / 11.
> _*(Keeping in mind, Indian Air force is designed to defend from PAF & PLAAF)*_



Yes but what about MMRCA ?  remmeber SH or any other Aircraft (4.5 Gen)


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## Patriot

We will get the CFT's.It's part of the deal.They are just removed in the above pictures.CFT's can be removed and reinstalled easily.

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## Stealth

Patriot said:


> We will get the CFT's.It's part of the deal.They are just removed in the above pictures.CFT's can be removed and reinstalled easily.



Yep! CFT part of Deal. Ceremony called DEMO of Pakistan F16s


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## Kompromat

Official Press release by Lockheed martin.

Lockheed Martin Unveils First New F-16 For Pakistan In Ceremony Attended By Air Force Chiefs
FORT WORTH, Texas, October 13th, 2009 -- Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] unveiled the first of 18 new F-16s being produced for Pakistan in ceremonies today at its Fort Worth, Texas, facility. Officials including the Chiefs of Staff of the U.S. and Pakistan Air Forces were on hand to witness the event.

Air Chief Marshal Rao Quamar Suleman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force (PAF), accepted the first F-16 Block 52 aircraft on behalf of his nation. Also present were Husain Haqqani, Pakistan's Ambassador to the United States, and other senior officials.

The U.S. government was represented by Rep. Kay Granger, Texas 12th District, and Gen. Norton Schwartz, Chief of Staff of the Air Force.

"Peace Drive is the flagship of modernization for Pakistan's Air Force. *It is the latest configuration of the best 4th generation multirole fighter available in the world today," said John Larson, vice president of F-16 programs for Lockheed Martin.* 

The aircraft order is designated as "Peace Drive I," continuing a long tradition of naming F-16 international sales programs with the word Peace. The program raises the total number of F-16s ordered by Pakistan to 54. The Pakistan Air Force received its first F-16, in the Block 15 F-16A/B configuration, in 1982. Pakistan has been operating Lockheed Martin aircraft since 1963, when it received C-130B airlifters.

The Peace Drive I order is for 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds, all powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engine. The first aircraft  a two-seat F-16D model  will be delivered to the U.S. government (as agent for Pakistan in the Foreign Military Sales process) in December, with the remainder following in 2010.

The F-16 is the choice of 25 nations. More than 4,400 aircraft have been delivered worldwide from assembly lines in five countries. The F-16 program has been characterized by unprecedented international cooperation among governments, air forces and aerospace industries. Major upgrades to all F-16 versions are being incorporated to keep the fleet modern and fully supportable over the aircraft's long service life.

Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin is a global security company that employs about 140,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products and services. The corporation reported 2008 sales of $42.7 billion.

F-16 is a registered trademark of Lockheed Martin Corp.

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## batmannow

arihant said:


> Panga to tum lete ho har yude me.



WATCH out dear, your language, is noot good!
btw its pakistan defence fourm, & its our good gesture, to have you on borad, so think about it, & try to become nice.
if you can?


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## batmannow

raveolution said:


> Lol... probably true.. since 4 F16's=280 MKI's and 8 JF17 Basic= 200 MRCA. We need those 50,000 NOW!!! LOL



SORY to ask!
every thing is fine, but when a MRCA could take off from any of airbasess , can you confrim a date, paper drawings.

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## wangrong

Double seat &#65311;


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## Arsalan

congratulations,
hats off to all those who sticked to the idea that these machines will eventually be deleivered to PAF. i always have been a bit doubtfull about the deal but now i am happy about PAF getting them. they really are a valuable addition but i sincerily hope that these 18 F16 are the last of them from US!

congratulations!!

regards!


----------



## Arsalan

wangrong said:


> Double seat &#65311;



i guess the D's are the twin seaters!


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## marcos98



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## Arsalan

well with he new F16 blk 52 with PAF the planes have revived its importance in PAF. with support of JF17 and FC20 PAF will have something to offer!

regards!


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## Wingman

F-16 C...single seat
F-16 D...Double seater

One Pakistani Pilot said they will fly them next month.


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## eagle20054

I am very happy to hear this , Pakistan Zinda baad


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## Comet

Good News... after a long time!


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## DaRk WaVe

raveolution said:


> Lol... probably true.. since 4 F16's=280 MKI's and 8 JF17 Basic= 200 MRCA. We need those 50,000 NOW!!! LOL



Seeing the 'cries' of India regrading Pak deals, seems ur right


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## graphican

batmannow said:


> *Its not , that these AC going to make a huge difference in accordnce with our enemy's massive airforce, but surly it , is going to become signifficiant signal from US.
> THIS right kind of gesture , will surly help defining new bright hights of PAKISTAN's relationship with USA.*



I have no expressions but after reading your assessment, I would like to


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## graphican

Even in imprisonments, we do not let our prisoners die and feed them, not to keep them healthy but just alive. This is exactly what USA doing with us. 

Kick the f*cking Americans out, we can do without them and do better than we are doing now. Long Live Our relations with China, Turkey and the other friendly nations. America's National Interests are not the same as ours.

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## Stealth

Frankly speaking no one Xcited and happy with this F16 deliver WHY ???

every Pakistani hate AMERICA from the bottom of heart! Public of pakistan really not intrested even on US-AID, F16 etc thats what REALITY!

These F16s (after soo much sacrifies of 1000 Soilders and innocent people since last 8 years) what we achieve ??? just few F16s or what ???

We spend our billions of $$$ on So called (US yes its US WAR before 9/11) no problem with us no Sucide attack no violation etc.

Today we are very much in bad condition/situation. 

WE REALLY DONT NEED THESE F16s its better we go for Chinees or anyother platform.

We sacrifies our everything and US put pressure on us and handshake with Indians Thats what actually our REAL friendship with USA!

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## DaRk WaVe

Come on people 
Keep 'hate' on one side, these plat forms are great no doubt about it, its a good addition...
We Paid for them long time ago we got them & we badly needed these platforms
Lets enjoy this moment, we are having a great proven beast after a long time, these A/Cs are great addition to our air fleet & They have some great, *proven *systems, No doubt Chinese are doing good but F-16 a proven platform with APG-68, F100-PW-229, JDAM, AIM-120C is just simply an awesome
lets not forget we will have First Operational Squadron of JF-17 in a few Months,Lets hope we get more great platforms for our Air Fleet


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## Stealth

emo_girl said:


> Come on people
> Keep 'hate' on one side, these plat forms are great no doubt about it, its a good addition...
> We Paid for them long time ago we got them & we badly needed these platforms
> Lets enjoy this moment, we are having a great proven beast after a long time, these A/Cs are great addition to our air fleet & They have some great, *proven *systems, No doubt Chinese are doing good but F-16 a proven platform with APG-68, F100-PW-229, JDAM, AIM-120C is just simply an awesome
> lets not forget we will have First Operational Squadron of JF-17 in a few Months,Lets hope we get more great platforms for our Air Fleet



I love American weapons most advance aggressive beautiful (in look) my point is Yes we paid for these aircrafts but relation btw Pakistan and US not really good


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## DaRk WaVe

Stealth said:


> I love American weapons most advance aggressive beautiful (in look) my point is Yes we paid for these aircrafts but relation btw Pakistan and US not really good



So what, Countries are allies as long as there is 'convergence of interests' 
We needed it, We got it & we didnt got it for free, End of story..

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## DANGER-ZONE

emo_girl said:


> Seeing the 'cries' of India regrading Pak deals, seems ur right



plz emo_girl dont try to make this thread a new war-zone.
batter stick to topic and plz dont pin indians for nothing..


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## DANGER-ZONE

thanks to ALLAH ALMIGHTY,dat we r finally geting them.
yuuuupeeee...........
but they dont look like normal f16 blk52 like other countried hav,like this


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## blain2

Because the aircraft has undergone its very first flight coming off the assembly line. CFTs are added at a later point and can be put on and removed while in service. Pakistan has paid for 36 CFTs for these aircraft so when they come to Pakistan, they will look very much like the picture above.

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## DANGER-ZONE

blain2 said:


> Because the aircraft has undergone its very first flight coming off the assembly line. CFTs are added at a later point and can be put on and removed while in service. Pakistan has paid for 36 CFTs for these aircraft so when they come to Pakistan, they will look very much like the picture above.



36 CFTs,so remaining(after 18 CFTs) can be fitted with other f16s as well.?


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## MZUBAIR

Stealth said:


> Yes but what about MMRCA ?  remmeber SH or any other Aircraft (4.5 Gen)



MRCA or MMRCA is not coming b4 2011.
We are hearing abt MRCA since 2003.....still deal is under way...so no wory abt that.

In coming years We need to build economy , sell our old fleet jets F7 (except PG), Mirage (except ROSE updated) , Q5 to third world countries and save few million dolloars for PAF future needs.

All in the end I would say we should finalize U-214 deal for PN as soon as possible to strengthen. Besides that we shld stand 3 to 4 Mirage Sqd for PN areal support. Few new frigates. The overall worry will be over for next few years........in that short time we wold hav a time to concentrate on economy.

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## MZUBAIR

arsalanaslam123 said:


> congratulations,
> hats off to all those who sticked to the idea that these machines will eventually be deleivered to PAF. i always have been a bit doubtfull about the deal but now i am happy about PAF getting them. they really are a valuable addition but i sincerily hope that these 18 F16 are the last of them from US!
> 
> congratulations!!
> 
> regards!



No, we shld build strong relations with US on equality.......we may need their tech in future...............we cant rely 100% on China technology.

We shld also open new doors.......make few deals with Germans and britans .

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## nightrider_saulat

*i have only one word on JF-17 & F-16 combination
"deadly combination" i will urge PAF to finance the money on f-16 decided to be allocated on J-10
becasue in my view F-16 is alot more effective as dogfighter and A2G attacks as compare to it's chinese counterpart J-10*


----------



## arihant

MZUBAIR said:


> No, we shld build strong relations with US on equality.......we may need their tech in future...............we cant rely 100% on China technology.
> 
> We shld also open new doors.......make few deals with Germans and britans .



Brother can you quote something where you can prove that China's technology cannot be relied. They have one of the best sophisticated planes.


----------



## ice_man

Locked said:


> Why are you all so happy, don't you think ur country should be treated better? I mean the blk 52 is a plane which even the damn Polish Air force possesses, wht is the fuss abt? US isn't treating u like a major ally! But instead of being critical u people r getting very happy :?



SERIOUSLY FINALLY SOMEONE WITH A SENSE OF THINGS!!! our rivals gets offered BLK 70s and they get god knows ToT as well and you name it!!! while we are just happy getting some BLK 52s....i dunno what the fuss is about...

i guess US has realized make pakistan feel so starved that even if we just throw a bone to them they get happy!!!

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## raveolution

MZUBAIR said:


> *Till 2010/11*
> 
> PAF
> 50 to 70 - JF-17
> 55 - F-16 (all upgraded to Block 52)
> 8 to 10 - J-10B
> 80 Mirage ROSE III
> 55 F- 7PG
> ______________________
> 
> Not a bad fleet to counter 150 MKI, 60-80 MIG 29 and 45 Mirage 2K till 2010 / 11.
> _*(Keeping in mind, Indian Air force is designed to defend from PAF & PLAAF)*_



Mzubair bro we've had these discussions so many time... LOL..

PAF in 2010/11 will be:

28 JF17 (8 currently plus 20 more next year, thats the rate of production mentioned by the ACM in his speech... link is somewhere on this forum, which is in itself pretty high.)

55 F16's but not all upgraded. Only the first batch has started upgradation and this programme will end by 2012-13.

Absolutely no J10's. The J10'B' is still under development and the Pakistani FC 20 will be ready only by 2014-15 at best. This has already been discussed in the J10 thread.

Mirage Rose and F7 numbers are okay.

As regards the IAF, India around 2010-11will have around 

175 MKI's (due to the recent order of 50 more from Russia directly. The entire program of 280 MKI's will be finished by 2014-15. Additionally, the MLU program would also have begun.)

60 Mig 29 upgraded to SMT (Mig 33 standards)

51 Mirage 2000 (upgraded to 5 standard)

U forgot the 100 Mig 27's and 140 Jaguars and 125 Mig 21 Bisons, forget about the LCA and the MRCA which will only start deliveries by 2012.

That makes it PAF-215 vs IAF 640, though i suspect PAF will still retain its much older Mirage and F7's until newer aircraft arrive.

Also, the Air force will never hesitate to use its full force, even fighters from its eastern bases in the event of a war, unless China declares war as well, whose stand on this issue was demonstrated in the 1965/71 wars.

Please feel free to disagree and let me know if my numbers are off.

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## batmannow

raveolution said:


> Mzubair bro we've had these discussions so many time... LOL..
> 
> PAF in 2010/11 will be:
> 
> 28 JF17 (8 currently plus 20 more next year, thats the rate of production mentioned by the ACM in his speech... link is somewhere on this forum, which is in itself pretty high.)
> 
> 55 F16's but not all upgraded. Only the first batch has started upgradation and this programme will end by 2012-13.
> 
> Absolutely no J10's. The J10'B' is still under development and the Pakistani FC 20 will be ready only by 2014-15 at best. This has already been discussed in the J10 thread.
> 
> Mirage Rose and F7 numbers are okay.
> 
> As regards the IAF, India around 2010-11will have around
> 
> 175 MKI's (due to the recent order of 50 more from Russia directly. The entire program of 280 MKI's will be finished by 2014-15. Additionally, the MLU program would also have begun.)
> 
> 60 Mig 29 upgraded to SMT (Mig 33 standards)
> 
> 51 Mirage 2000 (upgraded to 5 standard)
> 
> U forgot the 100 Mig 27's and 140 Jaguars and 125 Mig 21 Bisons, forget about the LCA and the MRCA which will only start deliveries by 2012.
> 
> That makes it PAF-215 vs IAF 640, though i suspect PAF will still retain its much older Mirage and F7's until newer aircraft arrive.
> 
> Also, the Air force will never hesitate to use its full force, even fighters from its eastern bases in the event of a war, unless China declares war as well, whose stand on this issue was demonstrated in the 1965/71 wars.
> 
> Please feel free to disagree and let me know if my numbers are off.



plus F-35 & RAPPTOR!
& EVERYTHING in the world of MILITRY AVIATION, right?
our deals are comming forward step by step, when your M,RCA thing will be in the skies, kindly give us a date.
thanks

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## BATMAN

At this moment looking at the indian build up on forward lines/bases and present fleet of PAF, i would favor to excercise the option of remaining 18 a/c.
J10 is not comming till 2014, this allow sufficient time for its maturity by this time we should procure F-16.


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## DaRk WaVe

*@ raveolution*

175 MKI  

Correct me If i m wrong, the deal about Up gradation of M2k to 5 standard is not finalized, French are demanding too much 

as for MMRCA, I m hearing about this since like 2004 or 05, sorry to say but its more ranting than anything practical...

as for MiG-29 they will be upgraded to level of MiG-35 not MiG-33  I found this 
*IAF plans to Induct upgraded MiG-29 hit by Russian delay *
IAF plans to Induct upgraded MiG-29 hit by Russian delay

Lets see how it goes for MiG-29

I hope I will see LCA inducted in my Life time 

BTW i really need to know how there will be 280 MKI end by 2014-15...

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## PAFAce

blain2 said:


> For those interested in a brief news report from the US on PAF F-16s being rolled out.
> 
> Yahoo!


Thanks for the link, *blain*. By the way, once again, lack of research and inaccurate information was clearly visible. Another reason we need a joint effort to call these people out every time they get something wrong, especially related to Pakistan.

1. _"Pakistani officials received the first of 54 F-16s it purchased from Lockheed Martin"_.
We all know the new order is for 18 F-16 Block 52s. Including the 18 new ones and the 2 undergoing MLU in the US, we will have 63 F-16s in our inventory (52 A/B + 2 MLU + 18 C/D - 9 attritional). Overall, the next F-16 that arrives in Pakistan will be our 53rd (could be either a C/D or an MLU, most likely a C/D). What she obviously wanted to convey was that _Pakistan has, till date, purchased 54 F-16s from the US, and Pakistani officials received the first of 18 new type F-16s ordered in 2005/2006_. 

2. _"Congress blocked sale of F-16s to Pakistan 20 years ago, because of concerns over Pakistan's loyalty to the US"_. 
I thought it was because of our nuclear program. I didn't realize we had to be "loyal" to the US. So had we remained loyal, our nuclear program would not have hindered the sale? Is this a confession?

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## Kompromat

emo_girl said:


> *@ raveolution*
> 
> 175 MKI
> 
> Correct me If i m wrong, the deal about Up gradation of M2k to 5 standard is not finalized, French are demanding too much
> 
> as for MMRCA, I m hearing about this since like 2004 or 05, sorry to say but its more ranting than anything practical...
> 
> as for MiG-29 they will be upgraded to level of MiG-35 not MiG-33  I found this
> *IAF plans to Induct upgraded MiG-29 hit by Russian delay *
> IAF plans to Induct upgraded MiG-29 hit by Russian delay
> 
> Lets see how it goes for MiG-29
> 
> I hope I will see LCA inducted in my Life time
> 
> BTW i really need to know how there will be 280 MKI end by 2014-15...








According to zee news , by 2020 IAF would have a fleet of MKI's Upgraded Migs , FGFA , HAL Tejas ( exported in a number of 1200)
MRCA , 450 ICBMS , and a space borne aircraft carrier with Su 35's on it.

And a huge amount of Khiyali pulao


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## blain2

raveolution said:


> Mzubair bro we've had these discussions so many time... LOL..
> 
> PAF in 2010/11 will be:
> 
> 28 JF17 (8 currently plus 20 more next year, thats the rate of production mentioned by the ACM in his speech... link is somewhere on this forum, which is in itself pretty high.)
> 
> 55 F16's but not all upgraded. Only the first batch has started upgradation and this programme will end by 2012-13.
> 
> Absolutely no J10's. The J10'B' is still under development and the Pakistani FC 20 will be ready only by 2014-15 at best. This has already been discussed in the J10 thread.
> 
> Mirage Rose and F7 numbers are okay.
> 
> As regards the IAF, India around 2010-11will have around
> 
> 175 MKI's (due to the recent order of 50 more from Russia directly. The entire program of 280 MKI's will be finished by 2014-15. Additionally, the MLU program would also have begun.)
> 
> 60 Mig 29 upgraded to SMT (Mig 33 standards)
> 
> 51 Mirage 2000 (upgraded to 5 standard)
> 
> U forgot the 100 Mig 27's and 140 Jaguars and 125 Mig 21 Bisons, forget about the LCA and the MRCA which will only start deliveries by 2012.
> 
> That makes it PAF-215 vs IAF 640, though i suspect PAF will still retain its much older Mirage and F7's until newer aircraft arrive.
> 
> Also, the Air force will never hesitate to use its full force, even fighters from its eastern bases in the event of a war, unless China declares war as well, whose stand on this issue was demonstrated in the 1965/71 wars.
> 
> Please feel free to disagree and let me know if my numbers are off.



Odds are no different than they have been in the past, and neither is the intent any different on the part of the IAF. PAF planning takes these things into account.

I tend to stay away from putting up future orbats because they are unrealistic, do not take into account delays, problems with induction etc. etc.

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## blain2

PAFAce said:


> Thanks for the link, *blain*. By the way, once again, lack of research and inaccurate information was clearly visible. Another reason we need a joint effort to call these people out every time they get something wrong, especially related to Pakistan.
> 
> 1. _"Pakistani officials received the first of 54 F-16s it purchased from Lockheed Martin"_.
> We all know the new order is for 18 F-16 Block 52s. Including the 18 new ones and the 2 undergoing MLU in the US, we will have 63 F-16s in our inventory (52 A/B + 2 MLU + 18 C/D - 9 attritional). Overall, the next F-16 that arrives in Pakistan will be our 53rd (could be either a C/D or an MLU, most likely a C/D). What she obviously wanted to convey was that _Pakistan has, till date, purchased 54 F-16s from the US, and Pakistani officials received the first of 18 new type F-16s ordered in 2005/2006_.
> 
> 2. _"Congress blocked sale of F-16s to Pakistan 20 years ago, because of concerns over Pakistan's loyalty to the US"_.
> I thought it was because of our nuclear program. I didn't realize we had to be "loyal" to the US. So had we remained loyal, our nuclear program would not have hindered the sale? Is this a confession?



Its a local news channel. I just posted the link because it had the video of the aircraft and also some comments from CAS. The comments of the anchors were pretty insignificant and incorrect as you rightly point out.


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## sonicboom

blain2 said:


> Its a local news channel. I just posted the link because it had the video of the aircraft and also some comments from CAS. The comments of the anchors were pretty insignificant and incorrect as you rightly point out.



That's correct. Channle 11 is a local channel and I have already contacted them about this Inaccuracy.


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## MZUBAIR

arihant said:


> Brother can you quote something where you can prove that China's technology cannot be relied. They have one of the best sophisticated planes.



I didnt say abt Chinees quality.......its one of the best


F-7PG, J-10B, JF-17 are state of arts.

Histiry showed that Chineese J6 (designed on Mig 19 frame ) porved batter then Mig 19.

i said we shld also consider western techs to keep variety in our defence fleet. For that we must have develop strong relations with west.


----------



## blain2

ice_man said:


> SERIOUSLY FINALLY SOMEONE WITH A SENSE OF THINGS!!! our rivals gets offered BLK 70s and they get god knows ToT as well and you name it!!! while we are just happy getting some BLK 52s....i dunno what the fuss is about...
> 
> i guess US has realized make pakistan feel so starved that even if we just throw a bone to them they get happy!!!



Ice,

Every little bit helps. Our rival is offered Blk70 on paper! We have blk-52 on hand. A very big difference. Americans can promise the Indians Starship Enterprise (from the famous Startrek) if they'd like to, however what is blk70? Nobody knows. The cost of blk-60 is as such that an order in the tune of 125-200 aircraft would make it pretty cost-prohibitive for the Indians. So the blk-70 is not necessarily the most advanced. If anything, it will be customized to Indian requirements and by the time that buy it and induct it, Pakistan would be looking at something beyond the F-16s.

The 18 blk-52s inducted have the AIDEWS ECM and EW suite on it which is the latest ECM suite available in the US. That is a significant capability given that even older PAF F-16s can conduct pretty serious jamming during operations. The Blk52s afford much greater endurance and the ability to use these aircraft for air interdiction, precision attack, maritime interdiction and electronic warfare in support of strike packages. All these advantages are not to be taken lightly. If employed effectively with the rest of the aircraft in service, these aircraft can do a lot to deny superiority to the other side.

Lastly, blk-52s are in addition to a lot of other upgradation and inductions. We have JF-17s coming off the production line, we are slated to take possession of the Erieye and then FC-20s. Each aircraft has a place in the PAF and as such the abilities of the F-16 blk52 cannot be taken lightly. 

This purchase is one of equals. We paid and they delivered. Lets appreciate it instead of being constantly burdened by the past. 

I'd rather have a larger number of bllk-52 F-16s than MKIs. F-16 is a better MR platform than most others on the market.

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## PAFAce

blain2 said:


> Its a local news channel. I just posted the link because it had the video of the aircraft and also some comments from CAS. The comments of the anchors were pretty insignificant and incorrect as you rightly point out.





sonicboom said:


> That's correct. Channle 11 is a local channel and I have already contacted them about this Inaccuracy.


I believe CBS is not just a local news channel. But I could be wrong. We get CBS here in Canada, it's international television.

In any case, I was just trying to be a smart aleck. Forgive me.


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## blain2

It could even be CNN. Their anchors and those who do research for reports are no specialists in defence matters. They are sort of similar to the Pakistani reporters. Rarely will you find someone intricately aware of the F-16 saga and Pakistan in the media. I say, just enjoy the low quality video in it and call it day.


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## Myth_buster_1

well done congratulations PAF! and yep. RIP MKI

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## sonicboom

PAFAce said:


> I believe CBS is not just a local news channel. But I could be wrong. We get CBS here in Canada, it's international television.
> 
> In any case, I was just trying to be a smart aleck. Forgive me.



Yaar, it is a local affiliate of CBS and that news clip was a local broadcast by the channel for the Dallas/Fort Worth area. So don't worry and be happy.


----------



## owais.usmani



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## IceCold

nightrider_saulat said:


> *i have only one word on JF-17 & F-16 combination
> "deadly combination" i will urge PAF to finance the money on f-16 decided to be allocated on J-10
> becasue in my view F-16 is alot more effective as dogfighter and A2G attacks as compare to it's chinese counterpart J-10*



The days for a typical dog fight are numbered if not over. Modern warfare will depend upon BVR and we need to have an effective BVR capability.


----------



## DaRk WaVe

owais.usmani said:


>



Bring 'em Home as soon as possible

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## boxer_B

emo_girl said:


> *@ raveolution*
> 
> 175 MKI
> 
> Correct me If i m wrong, the deal about Up gradation of M2k to 5 standard is not finalized, French are demanding too much



Money is not a problem. Kindly confirm with news article.



emo_girl said:


> as for MMRCA, I m hearing about this since like 2004 or 05, sorry to say but its more ranting than anything practical...



Quickly, mail to all MMRCA competitors to stop wasting their money and resources on Indian trials. By the way, F-16 and F-18 trails are completed and rafale has touched down bangalore

The Hindu : Karnataka / Bangalore News : Rafale lands in Bangalore



emo_girl said:


> I hope I will see LCA inducted in my Life time



Chandrayaan happened in your lifetime aint it? And LCA has completed 1000+ field trials.



emo_girl said:


> BTW i really need to know how there will be 280 MKI end by 2014-15...



I am expecting 250-255 if current numbers are 105



batmannow said:


> plus F-35 & RAPPTOR!
> & EVERYTHING in the world of MILITRY AVIATION, right?
> our deals are comming forward step by step, when your M,RCA thing will be in the skies, kindly give us a date.
> thanks



Get off your high horse, unlike you we have many sellers at our disposal. And nah, we will better stick with FGFA/PAK-FA



blain2 said:


> Ice,
> 
> Every little bit helps. Our rival is offered Blk70 on paper! We have blk-52 on hand. A very big difference.



CONCUR



blain2 said:


> Americans can promise the Indians Starship Enterprise (from the famous Startrek) if they'd like to, however what is blk70? Nobody knows. The cost of blk-60 is as such that an order in the tune of 125-200 aircraft would make it pretty cost-prohibitive for the Indians.



Nah, we just need to get $1 trillion sitting in swiss bank account of our corrupt politicians.
And i think, india was offered Blk-60.

WIKI QUOTE

The F-16IN, which is similar to the F-16 Block 60, will be a 4.5 generation aircraft. Lockheed Martin has stated that it will be the most advanced F-16 variant developed. It will be more advanced than the F-16 Block 52s that the Pakistan Air Force has acquired.

UNQUOTE




blain2 said:


> So the blk-70 is not necessarily the most advanced. If anything, it will be customized to Indian requirements and by the time that buy it and induct it, Pakistan would be looking at something beyond the F-16s.



Was never interested in F-16IN. I somehow felt relieved that pakistan got these birds. Now officially LM is out of MMRCA



blain2 said:


> The 18 blk-52s inducted have the AIDEWS ECM and EW suite on it which is the latest ECM suite available in the US. That is a significant capability given that even older PAF F-16s can conduct pretty serious jamming during operations. The Blk52s afford much greater endurance and the ability to use these aircraft for air interdiction, precision attack, maritime interdiction and electronic warfare in support of strike packages. All these advantages are not to be taken lightly. If employed effectively with the rest of the aircraft in service, these aircraft can do a lot to deny superiority to the other side.
> 
> Lastly, blk-52s are in addition to a lot of other upgradation and inductions. We have JF-17s coming off the production line, we are slated to take possession of the Erieye and then FC-20s. Each aircraft has a place in the PAF and as such the abilities of the F-16 blk52 cannot be taken lightly.
> 
> This purchase is one of equals. We paid and they delivered. Lets appreciate it instead of being constantly burdened by the past.
> 
> I'd rather have a larger number of bllk-52 F-16s than MKIs. F-16 is a better MR platform than most others on the market.



MKI also carries EW and ECM suite Tarang. And there is a problem, pakistan will have at most 60 block 52 F-16 as against 260 Su-30 MKI not to mention upgraded MIG-29.

And another point, MCA $2 billion program is also there which will be benefited by MMRCA so we can expect them in 2018.


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## arsalan shafique

i want to know that does these f-16's have got CTF????


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## Patriot

arsalan shafique said:


> i want to know that does these f-16's have got CTF????


YES YES YES!!
Anyway guys stop worrying.Looks like we'll get these birds.Anyway some members might even worry about sanctions after retirement of F-16.
"Damn I don't trust those Americans....I don't know about those F-16s, Uncle Sam might embargo us, and if they do, they'll be useless in the museum"


----------



## Stealth

*Pakistan New F16 Block 52 Banner*







*Ver1*

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## MZUBAIR

raveolution said:


> Mzubair bro we've had these discussions so many time... LOL..
> 
> PAF in 2010/11 will be:
> 
> 28 JF17 (8 currently plus 20 more next year, thats the rate of production mentioned by the ACM in his speech... link is somewhere on this forum, which is in itself pretty high.)



I hope ur not tollroing....any ways according to ACM first Sqd will be prepare by the end of this year for Peshawar air base......n for ur kind information...Peshawar air base hav 2 Sqd of 20 n 22 air crafts with total of 42. *First Sqd with 20+ JF-17 will be up this year.*I am not dogging by telling that reference link is somewhere on this forum....infact i am quoting ACM interview reference link for u.

JF-17 Thunder Aircrafts Squadron to be set up in Peshawar: Air Chief



> 55 F16's but not all upgraded. Only the first batch has started upgradation and this programme will end by 2012-13.



Ur information is not correct....4 of PAF F-16 are already in MLU process ...which will take them equivalent to block 52. Remaing will be in 2010/11. Soon i will post u details of contract with reference.




> Absolutely no J10's. The J10'B' is still under development and the Pakistani FC 20 will be ready only by 2014-15 at best. This has already been discussed in the J10 thread.




initial J-10B 8 to 10 will be delievered in 2011... 
total 36 will be completed in 2014/15.........even if we dont hav a single J-10B......still no one dare to challange us.



> Mirage Rose and F7 numbers are okay.
> 
> As regards the IAF, India around 2010-11will have around
> 
> 175 MKI's (due to the recent order of 50 more from Russia directly. The entire program of 280 MKI's will be finished by 2014-15. Additionally, the MLU program would also have begun.)



even u hav 175 still IAF wouldnt hav edge.



> 60 Mig 29 upgraded to SMT (Mig 33 standards)
> 
> 51 Mirage 2000 (upgraded to 5 standard)
> 
> U forgot the 100 Mig 27's and 140 Jaguars and 125 Mig 21 Bisons, forget about the LCA and the MRCA which will only start deliveries by 2012.



Mig 27, Jguars n Mig 21 are old horses......IAF will never use them in serious action.




> That makes it PAF-215 vs IAF 640, though i suspect PAF will still retain its much older Mirage and F7's until newer aircraft arrive.



Ur statements n analysis are proveless 



> Also, the Air force will never hesitate to use its full force, even fighters from its eastern bases in the event of a war, unless China declares war as well, whose stand on this issue was demonstrated in the 1965/71 wars.
> 
> Please feel free to disagree and let me know if my numbers are off.



lolz...u forgot how u were punished in 1971 n 1965. ur bases n fleet were destroyed.


u Bharatrakshak also accepts those defeats.


I m giving u prove coz its very hard to conviencve sensless buddy.

*bharat-rakshak accepts Loss in 1965 war*


*Child ,next time dont try to flame*


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## boxer_B

Growler said:


> well done congratulations PAF! and yep. RIP MKI



Cool, next time make sure those armed MKI's dont go unhurt from your territory and someone doesnot pass by at mach 2 speed over your skies.


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## MZUBAIR

boxer_B said:


> Cool, next time make sure those armed MKI's dont go unhurt from your territory and someone doesnot pass by at mach 2 speed over your skies.



Did that ever happened b4? :p

U forgot that ur MKI n Migs were locked by PAF jets in Dec 08


Indian fighter jets violate Pakistan air space, PAF jets intercepted

Indian jet planes violate Pakistan air space: PM Gilani


Pakistan shoots down two Indian MiGs

Now its very hrd that IAF dare to think again .


----------



## nightrider_saulat

IceCold said:


> The days for a typical dog fight are numbered if not over. Modern warfare will depend upon BVR and we need to have an effective BVR capability.



*F-16s with an undisputed telly of 71 air-air kills without any single loss is enough
to give him the tittle of an absolute dogfighter(already have been recognized as best MRA)
so after this you would still consider J-10 a much more effective aircraft as compare to F-16*


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## raveolution

batmannow said:


> plus F-35 & RAPPTOR!
> & EVERYTHING in the world of MILITRY AVIATION, right?
> our deals are comming forward step by step, when your M,RCA thing will be in the skies, kindly give us a date.
> thanks



Thanks for your reply Batman. Bro nowhere in my post have I taken the MRCA into account of my numbers. Infact I've said forget it for the moment. As for a firm date, unfortunately its not in my hand. However I can best illustrate the timeline as follows:

Aug-Dec '09: Initial trials (Bangalore) (3 contenders have finished and Rafale is undergoing trials currently)
Dec-Feb '09: High Altitude Trials (Leh/Kashmir)
Apr-May '09: High Temperature Heat Trials (Rajasthan)
Jun-Oct '09: Live firing and weapons/avionics trials (in respective countries alongwith IAF pilots)
Nov-Apr '09: Recommendation of the IAF and final decision of the defence ministry, CCS, CAG)
May '09: Order and simultaneous beginning of indigenous production
May '10 : Arrival of first squadron in flyaway condition (part of the deal)

Hope this clears the air. As your deals are clearing step by step so will this. A $10 billion order is not a joke. No offence but unlike the PAF, the IAF has to conduct multiple trials as there are more than one contender.

Hope you agree with me.


----------



## batmannow

blain2 said:


> Ice,
> 
> Every little bit helps. Our rival is offered Blk70 on paper! We have blk-52 on hand. A very big difference. Americans can promise the Indians Starship Enterprise (from the famous Startrek) if they'd like to, however what is blk70? Nobody knows. The cost of blk-60 is as such that an order in the tune of 125-200 aircraft would make it pretty cost-prohibitive for the Indians. So the blk-70 is not necessarily the most advanced. If anything, it will be customized to Indian requirements and by the time that buy it and induct it, Pakistan would be looking at something beyond the F-16s.
> 
> The 18 blk-52s inducted have the AIDEWS ECM and EW suite on it which is the latest ECM suite available in the US. That is a significant capability given that even older PAF F-16s can conduct pretty serious jamming during operations. The Blk52s afford much greater endurance and the ability to use these aircraft for air interdiction, precision attack, maritime interdiction and electronic warfare in support of strike packages. All these advantages are not to be taken lightly. If employed effectively with the rest of the aircraft in service, these aircraft can do a lot to deny superiority to the other side.
> 
> Lastly, blk-52s are in addition to a lot of other upgradation and inductions. We have JF-17s coming off the production line, we are slated to take possession of the Erieye and then FC-20s. Each aircraft has a place in the PAF and as such the abilities of the F-16 blk52 cannot be taken lightly.
> 
> This purchase is one of equals. We paid and they delivered. Lets appreciate it instead of being constantly burdened by the past.
> 
> I'd rather have a larger number of bllk-52 F-16s than MKIs. F-16 is a better MR platform than most others on the market.



A salut FROM THIS crazy SOLIDER SIR!

for your great input!


----------



## blain2

boxer_B said:


> MKI also carries EW and ECM suite Tarang. And there is a problem, pakistan will have at most 60 block 52 F-16 as against 260 Su-30 MKI not to mention upgraded MIG-29.
> 
> And another point, MCA $2 billion program is also there which will be benefited by MMRCA so we can expect them in 2018.



Not denying that the MKI has EW. Pretty much all newer aircraft have this. However the EW suite on the MKI is the exact same as the one on Soufa. AIDEWS came out much later (they just conducted initial testing in March/April 09 timeframe) way after the Israelis had done that integration on the Soufa and provided the same to the IAF for the MKI. With time, technology and processing power also increases. Secondly, AIDEWS is a suite of capabilities whereas others are stand-alone ECM components as deployed on the MKI. 

Any which way you look at it, it is a more recent ECM/EW capability and certainly one of the newest ones to be inducted in Asia.


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## MZUBAIR

Growler said:


> well done congratulations PAF! and yep. RIP MKI



Growler, few days ago u were saying PAF needs F-16 (New).
Now 18 new are coming and old are getting upgrade at block 52 level. There is still option of more 18 alive.

I hope ur happy 

I think PAF shld work on J-10B n JF-17 (Block II) n get them in air.


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## Myth_buster_1

boxer_B said:


> Cool, next time make sure those armed MKI's dont go unhurt from your territory and someone doesnot pass by at mach 2 speed over your skies.



Their will be no next time for MKI. no F off you indian low life troller. leave our threads alone and go back to your hole. BR!

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## boxer_B

MZUBAIR said:


> Did that ever happened b4? :p
> 
> U forgot that ur MKI was locked by PAF jets in Dec 08
> 
> 
> Indian fighter jets violate Pakistan air space, PAF jets intercepted
> 
> Indian jet planes violate Pakistan air space: PM Gilani
> 
> 
> Pakistan shoots down two Indian MiGs
> 
> Now its very hrd that IAF dare to think again .



Not credible, do you think PAF will leave su-30MKI unengaged from their territory after Atlantique incident. They are waiting for too looooong to get scores even. 

These news articles are only for domestic consumption.

Third article is from kargil war.
And dont feel proud in shooting down 1960 birds. They were crashing by themselves anyway and on their retirement. Topic here is su-30mki vs F-16 blk-52 (atleast what you pakistanis made it)


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## DANGER-ZONE

people im sick of this indo-pak war of the words.
plz we r discussing about f16 block 52 here,no MKI plz.
AND PLZ IM REQUESTING U PEOPLE NOT MAKE THIS THREAD ANOTHER WAR ZONE.

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## blain2

raveolution said:


> No offence but unlike the PAF, the IAF has to conduct multiple trials as there are more than one contender.
> 
> Hope you agree with me.



None taken. PAF has already evaluated aircraft in which the service was interested. F-16 was always PAF's first choice because of what we already fly. Typhoon and Rafale were deemed too expensive (as will you), Gripen was not cleared despite evaluation, and the fact that since we always liked the F-16, when it was cleared for export to Pakistan, it made sense to order more. In India's case, the size of the order makes sense to pitch one against the other by putting out the RFP to get the best pricing vs. capability match.

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## blain2

Lets stick to Danger Zone's suggestion to stay on topic. Lets talk Pakistani F-16 Blk-52s and leave out Indo-Pak debate. This goes for myself as well.


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## BATMAN

> Aug-Dec '09: Initial trials (Bangalore) (3 contenders have finished and Rafale is undergoing trials currently)
> Dec-Feb '09: High Altitude Trials (Leh/Kashmir)
> Apr-May '09: High Temperature Heat Trials (Rajasthan)
> Jun-Oct '09: Live firing and weapons/avionics trials (in respective countries alongwith IAF pilots)
> Nov-Apr '09: Recommendation of the IAF and final decision of the defence ministry, CCS, CAG)
> May '09: Order and simultaneous beginning of indigenous production
> *May '10 : Arrival of first squadron in flyaway condition (part of the deal)*


No mention of payments!
Or do you want all manufacturers of the world to build one squarden each for you in hope of potential order!
One winner and many loosers....wow..
You always make flawed planning... you dictated in KL bill and now US is looking for cleaning up your mess.

Now, lets discuss some F-16 blk-52

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## DANGER-ZONE

blain2 said:


> None taken. PAF has already evaluated aircraft in which the service was interested. F-16 was always PAF's first choice because of what we already fly. Typhoon and Rafale were deemed too expensive (as will you), Gripen was not cleared despite evaluation, and the fact that since we always liked the F-16, when it was cleared for export to Pakistan, it made sense to order more. In India's case, the size of the order makes sense to pitch one against the other by putting out the RFP to get the best pricing vs. capability match.



i belive that Thunder can become much batter then Grippen in few years if it gets a powerful engin,grippen is a s**t.
but we must get few more f16 block52,if we r not going for any other eurpion aircraft.


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## Myth_buster_1

owais.usmani said:


>



I wonder which AGM it is on the 3rd hardpoint. 
1- Aim-9
2- Amraam
3- AGM-88? AGM-84?
4- fuel tank.

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## blain2

Its Maverick ATGM. Aim-120 and AIM-9M.


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## nightrider_saulat

Growler said:


> I wonder which AGM it is on the 3rd hardpoint.
> 1- Aim-9
> 2- Amraam
> 3- AGM-88? AGM-84?
> 4- fuel tank.



*sir it is AGM-Maverick​*


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## DANGER-ZONE

Growler said:


> I wonder which AGM it is on the 3rd hardpoint.
> 1- Aim-9
> 2- Amraam
> 3- AGM-88? AGM-84?
> 4- fuel tank.



but the targeting pod is quite diffent from sniper.


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## blain2

danger-zone said:


> but the targeting pod is quite diffent from sniper.



Why do you say that? Looks exactly like Sniper ATP to me.


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## raveolution

MZUBAIR said:


> I hope ur not tollroing....any ways according to ACM first Sqd will be prepare by the end of this year for Peshawar air base......n for ur kind information...Peshawar air base hav 2 Sqd of 20 n 22 air crafts with total of 42. *First Sqd with 20+ JF-17 will be up this year.*I am not dogging by telling that reference link is somewhere on this forum....infact i am quoting ACM interview reference link for u.



Bro I'm neither trolling nor flaming. If you do see I'm basing my points to the best of my knowledge. Maybe that does make me senseless.

As reg the JF17, you are right that the first squadron was supposed to have been inducted by 2009. However the reality is that the number of aircraft right now is only 8, with 2 months left for the year to end. I think the program is running a little behind schedule, which by itself is not that big a deal. It happens.



MZUBAIR said:


> Ur information is not correct....4 of PAF F-16 are already in MLU process ...which will take them equivalent to block 52. Remaing will be in 2010/11. Soon i will post u details of contract with reference.



As for the F16's, the first batch of 4 are undergoing upgradation. This is what wiki says "28 F-16A and 12 F-16B (Block 15) ordered in 1981 under "Peace Gate I", delivered from 1983 to 1987. A further 14 F-16A/B allotted to Pakistan post-2001, 4 delivered in 2005, 8 delivered in 2008, 2 undergoing MLU (Mid Life Update) in the U.S. for delivery in late 2011. All F-16A/B to be upgraded to F-16AM/BM with MLU (Mid Life Update) avionics and structural modifications starting from October 2010, 1 per month, 9 attritional losses; 3 in late 1980s, 5 in early 1990s, 1 in 2009."

List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So please figure out when the program will end.



MZUBAIR said:


> initial J-10B 8 to 10 will be delievered in 2011... total 36 will be completed in 2014/15.........even if we dont hav a single J-10B......still no one dare to challange us.



Please check the J10 thread and then tell me. The first aircraft will only come in by 2014-15. And don't make any fanboy comments like "no one dare to challenge us"



MZUBAIR said:


> Mig 27, Jguars n Mig 21 are old horses......IAF will never use them in serious action.



Just as PAF has upgraded its Mirages and F7's, the IAF has also upgraded the its aircraft to MIG 27 UPG, Jaguar DARIN III and Mig 21 Bison standards. And if the IAF doesn't intend to use them for war, they certainly aren't going to use them for acrobatics.



MZUBAIR said:


> lolz...u forgot how u were punished in 1971 n 1965. ur bases n fleet were destroyed.



Forget Bharat Rakshak, even I accept that we were defeated in 1965. I don't think you meant to write 1971... everyone knows what happened then. I have always said in my previous posts that the PAF has been qualitatively superior historically. The deal is that its 2009.

Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please read this and my other posts. Never have I said that the PAF is inefficient or senseless or anything. I'm genuinely concerned for its future, the same which has been voiced by many senior members here. The PAF is doing its best given its Geo-political and budgetary constraints and results will show in the future. I give the Pakistan Armed Forces the same respect any person guarding its motherland would deserve.

I try to use the information available to me through this forum and elsewhere to put forward my points.

However if u still feel differently, please feel free to disagree

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## Myth_buster_1

blain2 said:


> Its Maverick ATGM. Aim-120 and AIM-9M.



Maverick has rectangular shape wing along with long delta main wings unlike in the F-16 picture their is only straight delta wing.


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## Myth_buster_1

danger-zone said:


> but the targeting pod is quite diffent from sniper.


it is sniper pod.

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## raveolution

BATMAN said:


> No mention of payments!
> Or do you want all manufacturers of the world to build one squarden each for you in hope of potential order!
> One winner and many loosers....wow..
> You always make flawed planning... you dictated in KL bill and now US is looking for cleaning up your mess.
> 
> Now, lets discuss some F-16 blk-52



Bro the Indian Govt has already got the money for its initial purchases. It has tons of money leftover as it has failed to use budgetary funding in successive years earmarked for defence acquisitions. It will never pay $10 billion in one go. No-one does, except wht Bhutto did in the 1970's for the F16's which Pak regretted till date. There there is a year in between the order and delivery of the first squadron. I'm sure these countries have the capability to manufacture 18 aircraft a year. However you are right, the timeline is only indicative and may deviate by 6 months-1 year.

Now lets get back to the thread topic... LOL


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## raveolution

owais.usmani said:


>



These spanking new birds do look so aggressively sexy. Congrats PAF.

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## DANGER-ZONE

raveolution said:


> Bro the Indian Govt has already got the money for its initial purchases. It has tons of money leftover as it has failed to use budgetary funding in successive years earmarked for defence acquisitions. It will never pay $10 billion in one go. No-one does, except wht Bhutto did in the 1970's for the F16's which Pak regretted till date. There there is a year in between the order and delivery of the first squadron. I'm sure these countries have the capability to manufacture 18 aircraft a year. However you are right, the timeline is only indicative and may deviate by 6 months-1 year.
> 
> Now lets get back to the thread topic... LOL



yeah sure..plz no more indo-pak afairs.

and do any one know wat ACM said in the ceromony.is paf willing to get 18 more?


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## Myth_buster_1

still the 3rd hardpoint is a mystery.


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## DaRk WaVe

Is AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW) part of the deal???


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## DANGER-ZONE

Growler said:


> still the 3rd hardpoint is a mystery.



its aimraam aim-120 or third.
on second its maveick.
on first,a fuel tank.
wing tip,a sidewinder.
 problem solved?

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## batmannow

raveolution said:


> Thanks for your reply Batman. Bro nowhere in my post have I taken the MRCA into account of my numbers. Infact I've said forget it for the moment. As for a firm date, unfortunately its not in my hand. However I can best illustrate the timeline as follows:
> 
> Aug-Dec '09: Initial trials (Bangalore) (3 contenders have finished and Rafale is undergoing trials currently)
> Dec-Feb '09: High Altitude Trials (Leh/Kashmir)
> Apr-May '09: High Temperature Heat Trials (Rajasthan)
> Jun-Oct '09: Live firing and weapons/avionics trials (in respective countries alongwith IAF pilots)
> Nov-Apr '09: Recommendation of the IAF and final decision of the defence ministry, CCS, CAG)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> May '09: Order and simultaneous beginning of indigenous production
> May '10 : Arrival of first squadron in flyaway condition (part of the deal)
> 
> Hope this clears the air. As your deals are clearing step by step so will this. A $10 billion order is not a joke. No offence but unlike the PAF, the IAF has to conduct multiple trials as there are more than one contender.
> 
> Hope you agree with me.



thts good ,info but again... really ,you impresssed me!
my best wishes to you & too , IAF!
but sory...i think they are making A $10 billion order a joke is not . ?
even itsnt it!


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## DANGER-ZONE

emo_girl said:


> Is AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW) part of the deal???



firstly,there isnt any JSOW over here in any pic.!
2ndly,JDAM was in the deal,not JSOW.


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## DaRk WaVe

danger-zone said:


> firstly,there isnt any JSOW over here in any pic.!
> 2ndly,JDAM was in the deal,not JSOW.



JDAM is there, i read that JSOW is part of weapons for Block 52
Sniper is Compatible with JSOW

read under *Targeting and Weapon Systems*
Advanced F-16 Block 50/52/60


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## Myth_buster_1

danger-zone said:


> its aimraam aim-120 or third.
> on second its maveick.
> on first,a fuel tank.
> wing tip,a sidewinder.
> problem solved?


nope.
starting from wingtips.
1 AIm-9
2 Amraam
3 ****** (its not maverick)
4 fuel tank


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## MZUBAIR

Growler said:


> it is sniper pod.



Can we get these kind of things for JF-17 or PAF drones.

Its very important for close ground support.


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## DaRk WaVe

emo_girl said:


> JDAM is there, i read that JSOW is part of weapons for Block 52
> *Sniper is Compatible with JSOW*
> 
> read under *Targeting and Weapon Systems*
> Advanced F-16 Block 50/52/60



*Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod*

The combat-proven Sniper Pod is the U.S. Air Force's advanced targeting pod (ATP) of record. The Sniper ATP provides critical long-range, positive identification of targets and possesses a video down link (VDL) equipped with the widely used Rover ground receiver to relay high resolution streaming video to forward-deployed forces for NT-ISR and rapid target coordination. Its advanced target identification capabilities enhance the Warfighter&#8217;s ability to detect and analyze ground targets while dramatically decreasing the risks posed by enemy air defenses.

The Sniper ATP also provides essential non-traditional intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance using high-resolution, mid-wave FLIR and TV sensors, which operate in conjunction with a dual-mode laser, permitting eye-safe operation and precise geo-location in urban environments.

For target coordination, the Sniper pod possesses a laser spot tracker to acquire other laser spots from air and ground assets, an infrared marker visible to night vision goggles and a VDL to ground forces. *Sniper ATP provides real-time targeting for J-series weapons and its state-of-the-art tracker enables employment of advanced laser-guided weapons against moving targets*. *The Sniper ATP is the only targeting pod fielded that incorporates meta-data in every frame of video.* The date/time stamp and coordinate information further ensure accuracy throughout intelligence and command and control functions.

A precision targeting system in a single, lightweight pod, Sniper ATP is designed for current and future aircraft. Sniper ATP is currently flying on the U.S. Air Force and multinational F-16, F-15, B-1, F-18, Harrier, A-10, B-52 and Tornado aircraft. Its common software and hardware interface design enables users to &#8220;plug and play&#8221; across services and multiple platforms, providing a common software and hardware configuration across aircraft fleets for greater interoperability.
Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod | Lockheed Martin


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## DANGER-ZONE

emo_girl said:


> JDAM is there, i read that *JSOW is part of weapons for Block 52
> Sniper is Compatible with JSOW*
> read under *Targeting and Weapon Systems*
> Advanced F-16 Block 50/52/60



yup emo ur right but PAF didnt purchased JSOW b/c of its cost.
JDAM is much similar to JSOW.if u hav doubt u can ask any senior member.i think paf will use H2 n H4 with it.


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## blain2

Growler said:


> nope.
> starting from wingtips.
> 1 AIm-9
> 2 Amraam
> 3 ****** (its not maverick)
> 4 fuel tank



A wager perhaps? 

Its a Maverick. The angle of the shot is not revealing the profile of the missile. The wings extend all the way to the back of the ATGM and then depending on the model, there are either smaller tail fins or none. However see here to get a better perspective:
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/030819-F-8888X-001.jpg

or this:
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/agm-65d.jpg


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## DANGER-ZONE

Growler said:


> nope.
> starting from wingtips.
> 1 AIm-9
> 2 Amraam
> 3 ****** (its not maverick)
> 4 fuel tank



nope sir
go and search at google,different types of AGM-65.
it is AGM-65d,which is fitted with new bird.





its also shown over here

regards

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## abbasniazi

raveolution said:


> Bro I'm neither trolling nor flaming. If you do see I'm basing my points to the best of my knowledge. Maybe that does make me senseless.
> 
> As reg the JF17, you are right that the first squadron was supposed to have been inducted by 2009. However the reality is that the number of aircraft right now is only 8, with 2 months left for the year to end. I think the program is running a little behind schedule, which by itself is not that big a deal. It happens.
> 
> 
> 
> As for the F16's, the first batch of 4 are undergoing upgradation. This is what wiki says "28 F-16A and 12 F-16B (Block 15) ordered in 1981 under "Peace Gate I", delivered from 1983 to 1987. A further 14 F-16A/B allotted to Pakistan post-2001, 4 delivered in 2005, 8 delivered in 2008, 2 undergoing MLU (Mid Life Update) in the U.S. for delivery in late 2011. All F-16A/B to be upgraded to F-16AM/BM with MLU (Mid Life Update) avionics and structural modifications starting from October 2010, 1 per month, 9 attritional losses; 3 in late 1980s, 5 in early 1990s, 1 in 2009."
> 
> List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> So please figure out when the program will end.
> 
> 
> 
> Please check the J10 thread and then tell me. The first aircraft will only come in by 2014-15. And don't make any fanboy comments like "no one dare to challenge us"
> 
> 
> 
> Just as PAF has upgraded its Mirages and F7's, the IAF has also upgraded the its aircraft to MIG 27 UPG, Jaguar DARIN III and Mig 21 Bison standards. And if the IAF doesn't intend to use them for war, they certainly aren't going to use them for acrobatics.
> 
> 
> 
> Forget Bharat Rakshak, even I accept that we were defeated in 1965. I don't think you meant to write 1971... everyone knows what happened then. I have always said in my previous posts that the PAF has been qualitatively superior historically. The deal is that its 2009.
> 
> Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Please read this and my other posts. Never have I said that the PAF is inefficient or senseless or anything. I'm genuinely concerned for its future, the same which has been voiced by many senior members here. The PAF is doing its best given its Geo-political and budgetary constraints and results will show in the future. I give the Pakistan Armed Forces the same respect any person guarding its motherland would deserve.
> 
> I try to use the information available to me through this forum and elsewhere to put forward my points.
> 
> However if u still feel differently, please feel free to disagree



I appreciate this post of yours, coz to me, it looks quite realistic and balanced.

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## TOPGUN

boxer_B said:


> Cool, next time make sure those armed MKI's dont go unhurt from your territory and someone doesnot pass by at mach 2 speed over your skies.



The funny part is funny man that nothing has ever passed my our skies unhurt eather by or armed forces nor our public add that this laugh to your collection funny man.

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## wild peace

So again we have to carry fuel tanks on pods instead of the wings.


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## blain2

danger-zone said:


> yup emo ur right but PAF didnt purchased JSOW b/c of its cost.
> JDAM is much similar to JSOW.if u hav doubt u can ask any senior member.i think paf will use H2 n H4 with it.



JSOW is a stand-off weapon similar to our Ra'ad and other standoff munitions. JDAM is a dumb bomb made intelligent by introducing Sat. guidance kits on it. To deliver JDAMs you still have to fly fairly close over to the target area. With JSOW you could release the weapon from 60-70 km away without exposing your aircraft to threats from the ground.

Also for those saying we do not have JSOW..here is a tidbit from the past. Hint: Search Dawn:



> *Pakistan Acquires AGM-154 BVR Missiles From US*
> March 16th, 2006:The US has provided Pakistan Air Force (PAF) with AGM-154 'Beyond Visual Range (BVR)' stand-off missiles, ostensibly to target terrorist hideouts. While state-run news agency said Pakistan has attained another landmark in modern missile technology by producing a joint standoff weapon system capable of hitting "over-the-horizon" targets with accuracy, AGM-154 system was provided by US ahead of President George W Bush's visit to the country. According to the daily, the announcement of Pakistan acquiring the BVR missile system came at the Corps Commanders meeting presided over President Pervez Musharraf on Tuesday.
> 
> The system uses technologies called 'Integrated Global Positioning System' and Inner-shell (they meant "inertial" nav system  Management System Navigation and could engage targets 70 km away. This apparently is the first BVR missiles the PAF has acquired that could be fired from a distance without coming into visual contact with the enemy. It could be fired from fighter jets fitted with sensors. As part of equipping Pakistan with military hardware to fight terrorists, US has granted approval to sell latest models of F-16s and supplied a fleet of helicopters, transport and sea surveillance planes.
> Quote:
> *95th Corps Commanders Conference Review*
> 
> March 14th, 2006: The senior commanders were told here Tuesday that Pakistan was now equipped with Beyond Visual Range standoff weapon system that can fight terrorists as well as insurgents in the country. The AGM 154 system has been provided by USA under its anti-terror package which includes many systems including BVR standoff weapon. Raytheon of USA has developed this system for the Air Force and the Navy. The AGM-154A (formerly Advanced Interdiction Weapon System) is intended to provide a low cost, highly lethal glide weapon with a standoff capability. JSOW family of kinematically efficient, air-to-surface glide weapons, in the 1,000-lb class, provides standoff capabilities from 15 nautical miles (low altitude launch) to 40 nautical miles (high altitude launch). The JSOW will be used against a variety of land and sea targets and will operate from ranges outside enemy point defences. The JSOW is a launch and leave weapon that employs a tightly coupled Global Positioning System (GPS)/Inertial Navigation System (INS), and is capable of day/night and adverse weather operations. The JSOW uses inertial and global positioning system for midcourse navigation and imaging infra-red and datalink for terminal homing. Commanders were told that the milestone achievement will take care of Pakistan&#195;&#162;&#226;&#8218;&#172;&#226;&#8222;&#162;s internal and external security concerns. This weapon system will also put at rest concerns expressed by some commanders lately over the breach of Pakistan&#195;&#162;&#226;&#8218;&#172;&#226;&#8222;&#162;s sovereignty by Allied Forces with a particular reference to Bajour incident. Bajour killings had attracted severe criticism from people of Pakistan, political parties and even from within the armed forces. With the induction of new system Pakistan Army combating terrorism will be able to hit targets without coming into direct contact with well dug terrorists.
> 
> The induction of the standoff weapon system has also lent comfort to those commanders who are fighting insurgents in Balochistan and terrorists in Wana and tribal areas. The new system will also serve as a shot in the arm for the ruling alliance who is braving opposition rallies in the name of protest against blasphemous cartoons. Commanders reposing complete confidence into the leadership of President General Pervez Musharraf and his policies firmly declared that blasphemous cartoons are matter of grave concern to every Pakistani but nobody will be allowed to draw political advantage out of it. They agreed that such elements will be dealt with an iron hand. And nobody will be allowed to disturb law and order situation in the country.

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## Stealth



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## raveolution

abbasniazi said:


> I appreciate this post of yours, coz to me, it looks quite realistic and balanced.



Thanks. That's what I try and be... albeit sometimes unsuccessfully.. LOL


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## DANGER-ZONE

blain2 said:


> JSOW is a stand-off weapon similar to our Ra'ad and other standoff munitions. JDAM is a dumb bomb made intelligent by introducing Sat. guidance kits on it. To deliver JDAMs you still have to fly fairly close over to the target area. With JSOW you could release the weapon from 60-70 km away without exposing your aircraft to threats from the ground.
> 
> Also for those saying we do not have JSOW..here is a tidbit from the past. Hint: Search Dawn:



i think its a great day today,every thing is going in favour of PAF


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## blain2

0:26 clearly shows the AGM-65 Maverick. Another clear view at 1:18.

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## blain2

CAS's address:

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## DANGER-ZONE

blain2 said:


> CAS's address:
> 
> YiVFOayyLJg[/media] - Report: Air Chief Marshal Pakistan (SOT)



clock directions shows that ur someone from airforce.
plz tell me that is PAf thinking to get 18 more of these.


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## DaRk WaVe

MZUBAIR said:


> Can we get these kind of things for JF-17 or PAF drones.
> 
> Its very important for close ground support.



I m thinking how it will be fitted on PAF Drones  
or IF we had an Armed Falco, One UAV for carrying Sniper & other UAV for Missiles

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## blain2

emo_girl said:


> I m thinking how it will be fitted on PAF Drones
> or IF we had an Armed Falco, One UAV for carrying Sniper & other UAV for Missiles



It can be done like that. The concept is not too unlike what has been done by PAF and other airforces. In the PAF, F-16s and Mirages have provided laser designation for LGBs that are carried by F-7s. So its quite possible to do so with the UAVs. However ideally you would want the targeting, designating and strike capabilities all on the same UAV.


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## DANGER-ZONE

yupeeeeeeeeeee...........

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## DANGER-ZONE




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## Huda

ya maybe ur rite but something is better than nothing


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## nightrider_saulat

huda said:


> ya maybe ur rite but something is better than nothing



and here j-10is nothing infront of this new f-16


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## Sargodhian_Eagle

I m lucky all of u that i will see these birds live in Sargodhian Skies.
These birds will pass over my home when they will fly.


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## PAFAce

blain2 said:


> It can be done like that. The concept is not too unlike what has been done by PAF and other airforces. In the PAF, F-16s and Mirages have provided laser designation for LGBs that are carried by F-7s. So its quite possible to do so with the UAVs. However ideally you would want the targeting, designating and strike capabilities all on the same UAV.


Indeed, sir. If I may add, with your permission, it is not entirely difficult to attach a laser-designator pod to the under-belly of any aircraft/helicopter, manned or unmanned. The multi-sensor turret I am working on right now has this capability. What will be more of a challenge is building a UAV capable of _safely_ and _accurately_ delivering laser guided munition to targets at significant distances. 

I foresee us acquiring this capability, at least in limited form, within the next 3 years. Whether it be on our current UAV systems (Falco, for example) or an entirely new one (procured American/Chinese systems) is speculative. What's more, night-strike capability can also be integrated into these systems (which will be more expensive, of course).

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## hj786

blain2 said:


> It can be done like that. The concept is not too unlike what has been done by PAF and other airforces. In the PAF, F-16s and Mirages have provided laser designation for LGBs that are carried by F-7s. So its quite possible to do so with the UAVs. However ideally you would want the targeting, designating and strike capabilities all on the same UAV.



Is ATLIS II used on both F-16s and Mirages? I would guess only the ROSE upgraded models are able to use it since they have modern avionics with MIL-STD-1553 databuses.


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## PakShaheen79

Sargodhian_Eagle said:


> I m lucky all of u that i will see these birds live in Sargodhian Skies.
> These birds will pass over my home when they will fly.



New F-16s will be stationed at Shahbaz AFB Jacobabad not at Mehsuf AFB Sargodha.


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## DANGER-ZONE



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## PAFAce

blain2 said:


> CAS's address


I can't believe he did it! he called them out on their duality! He told them the whole episode of how the Americans broke our trust last time around, something never done before by any of our politicians. Damn, son. Now don't you just wish that our politicians could speak like this? Instead of wagging their tails, if they actually called an ace and ace, and spoke on equal terms, it would be so much better. CAS Qamar, here, proved that you don't have to be rude to stand up for yourself. From now on, Mr. Haqqani should _always_ stand back smiling and let the ACM speak. Last time a Pakistani forces officer was this blunt and straight forward, the Indians made a big deal of the "confession by Gen. Musharraf of illegal transfer of weapons to the Indian border". I bet this time around, this "confession" won't even hit the airwaves in the States.

ACM Rao Suleman Qamar has surely earned my respect now.

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## blain2

hj786 said:


> Is ATLIS II used on both F-16s and Mirages? I would guess only the ROSE upgraded models are able to use it since they have modern avionics with MIL-STD-1553 databuses.



ATLIS is on the F-16s. Rose Mirages have the DART FLIR and integrated designation capability.


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## Myth_buster_1

blain2 said:


> 0:26 clearly shows the AGM-65 Maverick. Another clear view at 1:18.



i stand corrected. Thanks for the correction.
So glad to know that F-16 armament package is getting stronger and stronger. 
-JDAM
-AGM-65D
-AGM-154
-AMRAAM
-AIM-9
-GBU bombs
-AGM-88E ??


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## PakShaheen79

blain2 said:


> CAS's address:
> 
> YiVFOayyLJg[/media] - Report: Air Chief Marshal Pakistan (SOT)



-Straight Forward
-To the Point
-Truthful & Honest
-Daring
& Let me say
-Shockingly Pleasant (For Pak audiences at least)


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## TOPGUN

Let me get this straight why won't these new blk 52's be stationed with the old one's? i heard they won't be or can't be why is that?


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## Myth_buster_1

PakShaheen79 said:


> -Straight Forward
> -To the Point
> -Truthful & Honest
> -Daring
> & Let me say
> -Shockingly Pleasant (For Pak audiences at least)



-BS ACM.
-Puppet
-No leader ship
-Liar
He did not give any credit to former ACM who worked his butt off to convince the congress, the deal was signed during his tenure. 

sorry bro no offense to you.


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## Myth_buster_1

TOPGUN said:


> Let me get this straight why won't these new blk 52's be stationed with the old one's? i heard they won't be or can't be why is that?


our F-16s can be stationed any where any time. Shahbaz will be their permanent air base as it will feature a lot of new infrastructures not to mention the new under ground hangers. We can not leave a blind spot in southern air command where their is no high tech MRCA like block 52+.

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## Myth_buster_1

AGM-65G
Maverick G is the follow-on Maverick D but the shaped-charge warhead has been replaced with a blast fragmentation warhead. The IR guidance system has been modified for optimized larger targets tracking.


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## Myth_buster_1

AGM-65G
Maverick G is the follow-on Maverick D but the shaped-charge warhead has been replaced with a blast fragmentation warhead. The IR guidance system has been modified for optimized larger targets tracking. 

http://www.deagel.com/library1/viewer.aspx?id=m02006112700017
http://www.deagel.com/library1/viewer.aspx?id=m02006112700480
http://www.deagel.com/library1/viewer.aspx?id=m02006112700484
http://www.deagel.com/library1/viewer.aspx?id=m02006120700023
http://www.deagel.com/library1/viewer.aspx?id=m02006120700022
http://www.deagel.com/library1/viewer.aspx?id=m02006120700021
http://www.deagel.com/library1/viewer.aspx?id=m02006112700008


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## TOPGUN

I would also agree with going for 18 blk 52's more filling up the whole option and then not looking at US for anymore fighters or even thoughts! as fc-20 still has several years to come to us & thunders will take up time to be build in large numbers...

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## PakShaheen79

TOPGUN said:


> I would also agree with going for 18 blk 52's more filling up the whole option and then not looking at US for anymore fighters or even thoughts! as fc-20 still has several years to come to us & thunders will take up time to be build in large numbers...



Yeah 18 more F-16 will be great but i highly highly doubt if Pakistan will ever go for these.

To me Pakistan must put that money to engage Girfo, Selex, Thelas etc. to develop a AESA radar for Pakistani fighters along with other avionics. Era of F-16s are coming to an end in 2020s.


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## PakShaheen79

Growler said:


> -BS ACM.
> -Puppet
> -No leader ship
> -Liar
> He did not give any credit to former ACM who worked his butt off to convince the congress, the deal was signed during his tenure.
> 
> sorry bro no offense to you.



Now can you give me some events where he proved a BS, Puppet, Liar and Without Leadership?? 

That comments of mine were just about particular speech at ceremony of F-16. He never took credit to himself as well in his address.


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## PakShaheen79

Growler said:


> AGM-65G
> Maverick G is the follow-on Maverick D but the shaped-charge warhead has been replaced with a blast fragmentation warhead. The IR guidance system has been modified for optimized larger targets tracking.
> 
> http://www.deagel.com/library1/viewer.aspx?id=m02006112700017
> http://www.deagel.com/library1/viewer.aspx?id=m02006112700480
> http://www.deagel.com/library1/viewer.aspx?id=m02006112700484
> http://www.deagel.com/library1/viewer.aspx?id=m02006120700023
> http://www.deagel.com/library1/viewer.aspx?id=m02006120700022
> http://www.deagel.com/library1/viewer.aspx?id=m02006120700021
> http://www.deagel.com/library1/viewer.aspx?id=m02006112700008



Plz fix the links. Cant see the pics.


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## Salahadin

US pacifies Pak with new F-16 aircraft gift
Chidanand Rajghatta, TNN 14 October 2009, 09:54pm IST


WASHINGTON: Amid efforts to mollify a surcharged anti-American mood in Pakistan, the United States on Tuesday rolled out the first of 18 new F-16 

fighter aircraft produced for its ally even as officials from the two countries scrambled to agree on placatory language to accompany the Kerry-Lugar bill to be signed by President Obama in the next 72 hours. 

The ''insulting'' tone of the so-called K-L bill, which doles out $ 7.5 billion aid to Islamabad over five years subject to its ceasing support for terrorism, stopping nuclear proliferation, and reigning in its hyper-aggressive military, has inflamed Pakistan. Bowing to a diktat from its military junta, Pakistans civilian government earlier this week rushed its foreign minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi back to Washington to convey the countrys mood and concerns over the language in the bill. 

Qureshis talks with ****** pointman Richard Holbrooke and other senior US officials and lawmakers on the subject resulted in nothing more than assurances that Washington would not infringe on Pakistans sovereignty. But the US would not rewrite the legislation, although Senator Kerry is expected to issue further clarifications aimed at pacifying Pakistan. The President thereafter is expected to ive his assent to the bill with a ''signing statement'' that might reiterate US respect for Pakistans sovereignty, even though the argument in Pakistan is that the legislation undermines it. 

That signing ceremony is expected before the weekend, possibly as soon as Thursday. President Obama is conducting a full and final review of his Pak-Af policy in the White Houses underground Situation Room on Wednesday morning, following which he will emerge to host a Diwali celebration in the White House, the first time a US President would have attended such an event. 

While all this was playing out in Washington DC where Pakistan has come to be seen as a distasteful ally (''I absolutely have to hold my nose when I work with the Pakistani government,'' a US analyst said on camera in a TV program broadcast Tuesday night), a different scene was unfolding at a Lockheed Martin plant in Fort Worth, Texas. 

Watched by the Air Force chiefs, diplomats, officials from the two countries and local law-makers, Lockheed Martin unveiled the first of 18 Block 52 F-16s made for Pakistan under an order ironically named ''Peace Drive 1.'' 

The 18-jet order, which includes 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds, was scaled down from the original 32, which Pakistan could not afford. But even the whittled down order has kept Lockheed Martins Forth Worth plant, which is otherwise nearing the end of its life, humming for awhile, which is why the event saw the attendance of lawmaker Kay Granger from the adjoining Texas 12th district. 

The ceremony also saw the presence of Pakistans ambassador to the US, Hussain Haqqani, whose job is on the line because Pakistans military believes he had a role in undermining its primacy by getting Washington to legislate civilian oversight over it. In an interview to a foreign policy journal on his way to the event, Haqqani appears to have hinted that he has the capacity to embarrass the military if he was fired from his job, a threat that is certain to inflame the already fraught civilian-military confrontation brewing in Islamabad. 

Meanwhile, Lockheed Martin said the 18-jets order, including the two-seater F-16D model rolled out Tuesday, will be delivered in the 2009-2010 timeframe. The deliveries will bring to 54 the number of F-16s acquired by Pakistan since it first began receiving them from the US in 1982. 

While a few of them are believed to have attrited, Pakistan will still have around 50 F-16s in its inventory at the end of the current order. 

''Peace Drive is the flagship of modernization for Pakistan's Air Force. It is the latest configuration of the best 4th generation multirole fighter available in the world today,'' John Larson, vice president of F-16 programs for Lockheed Martin, said at the roll-out ceremony.

US pacifies Pak with new F-16 aircraft gift - US - World - The Times of India


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

There is no need for a new thread on the same issue.

And have you not figured out that all Chidu Raj does is rant against Pakistan?

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## Salahadin

"The 18-jet order, which includes 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds, was scaled down from the original 32, which Pakistan could not afford"

we freaking paid for these jet so why cry Indian media, I am hating Indian Media day by day they are after Pakistan like if the were a stray dogs.


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## ejaz007

*Peace Drive I - First F-16 unveiled *


October 13, 2009 (by Laurie Quincy) - Lockheed Martin unveiled the first of 18 new F-16s being produced for Pakistan in ceremonies today at its Fort Worth, Texas, facility. Officials including the Chiefs of Staff of the U.S. and Pakistan Air Forces were on hand to witness the event. 

Air Chief Marshal Rao Quamar Suleman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force delivering his remarks after the first F-16D block 52 aircraft was unveiled at Lockheed Martins, Fort Worth facility on October 13, 2009. Air Chief Marshal Rao Quamar Suleman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force (PAF), accepted the first F-16 Block 52 aircraft on behalf of his nation. Also present were Husain Haqqani, Pakistan's Ambassador to the United States, and other senior officials.

The U.S. government was represented by Rep. Kay Granger, Texas 12th District, and Gen. Norton Schwartz, Chief of Staff of the Air Force.

"Peace Drive is the flagship of modernization for Pakistan's Air Force. It is the latest configuration of the best 4th generation multirole fighter available in the world today," said John Larson, vice president of F-16 programs for Lockheed Martin. 

The aircraft order is designated as "Peace Drive I," continuing a long tradition of naming F-16 international sales programs with the word Peace. The program raises the total number of F-16s ordered by Pakistan to 54. The Pakistan Air Force received its first F-16, in the Block 15 F-16A/B configuration, in 1982. Pakistan has been operating Lockheed Martin aircraft since 1963, when it received C-130B airlifters.

The Peace Drive I order is for 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds, all powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engine. The first aircraft  a two-seat F-16D model  will be delivered to the U.S. government (as agent for Pakistan in the Foreign Military Sales process) in December, with the remainder following in 2010.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article3869.html


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## AgNoStiC MuSliM

Salahadin said:


> "The 18-jet order, which includes 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds, was scaled down from the original 32, which Pakistan could not afford"
> 
> we freaking paid for these jet so why cry Indian media, I am hating Indian Media day by day they are after Pakistan like if the were a stray dogs.



Its an opinion piece - ignore it and focus on the facts.

We paid for these aircraft, and we diversified into the FC-20 with the money save to avoid a repeat of the sanctions of the past that left PAF capability severely lacking.

I am not sure if the PAF kept the option of ordering 18 more block 52's (Blain might be able to better explain) but it could always be a possibility if this commitment is delivered on by the US, the US-Pak relationship remains stable and Pakistan's economic situation improves by 2011-2012.


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## ejaz007

At the moment it is only one F-16D that has been manufactured. The same shall be handed over to US government in December for handover to Pakistan in January. Rest of the planes shall follow in 2010.

We have option for ordering 18 more. Lets wait and see in PAF uses that option or not.

PAF made correct decision of diversifying the order and buying FC-20 this shall reduce PAF vulnerability in case sanctions are again imposed.

A thread already exists on F-16 discussion. This should be merged with the existing one.


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## sadiqams

The Americans are drip feeding us in the hope that we maintain the alliance in the so call 'war on terror'. One wrong step by Pakistan and its goodbye to the F-16s.


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## MZUBAIR

PAF F-16 fleet will be upgraded to block 52 till 2011.



> The Pakistan MLU avionics upgrade kits are being designed to provide
> the Pakistan Block 15A/B aircraft with many of the same capabilities as the
> new Block 52 F-16s that the PAF is procuring. The MLU kit replaces most of
> the 1980s avionics in the Block 15s with newer, advanced avionics systems
> from the Block 52 F-16s. The MLU upgrade kits will include: APG-68(V)9
> radar; Embedded GPS/INS (EGI); Link-16 data link; APX-113 Advanced
> Identify Friend or Foe (AIFF); Color Cockpit with Color Moving Map; ALQ-
> 211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS)
> Pod; Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) Cockpit and External Lighting;
> Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod; Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System
> (JHMCS); Reconnaissance Pod capability; improved avionics systems; JDAM
> capability; EGBU capability; AIM-120 AMRAAM capability; and AGM-84
> Harpoon capability. While many of the avionics systems and capabilities are
> common with the new Block 52s and the MLU, some significant differences
> remain between the MLU F-16 Block 15s and the new PAF Block 52s: there
> are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time; there are
> no engine improvements; and, there are no improvements to payload capacity.
> Overall, the MLU program will extend the service life of Pakistan&#8217;s original F-
> 16 aircraft and very significantly increase the capability of the Pakistan Air
> Force to conduct Close Air Support and night precision attack missions. I
> would like to highlight that in parallel with the significant improvement in
> weapon accuracy gained by precision guided munitions like JDAM, there is the
> potential to dramatically reduce collateral damage and civilian casualties.
> Regarding program status, the first four MLU aircraft are undergoing
> work in Fort Worth, Texas now. *The USAF schedule for delivery of these
> aircraft is December 2011.* The delivery dates for the remaining aircraft are
> being refined due to the recent stop work.



Now till 2011 
62 Block 52 F-16
100 + JF-17
8 to 10 J-10B 
80 Mirage ROSE 
55 F-7PG

Enough to keep balance till 2011 against 150 MKI, 50 to 60 Mig 29 and 45 Mirage 2K.
Keeping in mind IAF threat from both PLAAF and PAF


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## Hayreddin

http://apture.s3.amazonaws.com/000001244f4d34a705407c01007f000000000001.Pakistan%20F-16%20first%20flight%20credit%20LMT%202.JPG


----------



## truepakistani17

nightrider_saulat said:


> *i have only one word on JF-17 & F-16 combination
> "deadly combination" i will urge PAF to finance the money on f-16 decided to be allocated on J-10
> becasue in my view F-16 is alot more effective as dogfighter and A2G attacks as compare to it's chinese counterpart J-10*



sie with all respect i think it will be really foolish decesion. J10 is going to come as a fighter that we can play with according to our desires whereas F16 always have lots of strings atatched. i agree with Sir TOPGUN that it wont be wise to look toward US for any future mlitary procurements.
what do you think?


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## IceCold

nightrider_saulat said:


> *F-16s with an undisputed telly of 71 air-air kills without any single loss is enough
> to give him the tittle of an absolute dogfighter(already have been recognized as best MRA)
> so after this you would still consider J-10 a much more effective aircraft as compare to F-16*



Read my post again and dont put words into my mouth, F-16 maybe the best dog fighter in the world, i haven't disputed that, my whole point is that the days for a typical dog fight are over and modern combat depends upon BVR. First look first kill.
So if a J-10 has a first lock on the F-16, J-10 has an advantage. Situational awareness and finding out your enemy first is what will be a game changer.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

We need to understand that if we have another compatible aircraft like the fc 20 in our air force---there will be no sanctions and no problems with the deliveriers of F16's.

The reason for the original sanctions was containment and punishment---.

I mean to say if we can go next door and get the same item for a similiar price and no strings attached---where is the punishment.


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## Kompromat

Hello

I am glad to see the healthy Discussions of F16's .

Members please advice , our old fleet of F16 A/B is going to get MLU( upgraded to block 52 standard) 
Correct me if i am wrong , i want to know whether there would be any significant Airframe changes taking place in the MLU ?
If so i am looking forward for our f16's to be more capable.

JF17 must have an AESA radar western Avionics , Conformal fuel tanks , Airframe changes , power fulll engine maybe ws10 .
Thurst vactoring .

F16,JF17 ,FC20 is a lethal combination.

UAE is looking to buy Rafale , should we look into buy their Mirage 2000-9 ?
Or Turkish airforce's F16 block 50's?

Its a good option to fill our gap until we get a 5th gen fighter.

Another aspect can be Pakistan havin SAM's such as Sapada , S300 , or ask us to buy Patriot? 
Regards:


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## hassan1

PAF F-16D BLOCK 52
http://img99.imageshack.us/i/f16d2.jpg/
http://img62.imageshack.us/i/f16d1.jpg/
http://img115.imageshack.us/i/000001244f4d34a705407c0.jpg/
http://img115.imageshack.us/i/000001244f4b99be902e048.jpg/


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## owais.usmani

Just found this *AWESOME* image of a block 52 and thought should share with you people:

​

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## raveolution

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF F-16 fleet will be upgraded to block 52 till 2011.
> 
> 
> 
> Now till 2011
> 62 Block 52 F-16
> 100 + JF-17
> 8 to 10 J-10B
> 80 Mirage ROSE
> 55 F-7PG
> 
> Enough to keep balance till 2011 against 150 MKI, 50 to 60 Mig 29 and 45 Mirage 2K.
> Keeping in mind IAF threat from both PLAAF and PAF



Lol bro it seems that you didnt read my reply to your earlier post. Anyways to each his own. Appreciate it if u can read it and following comments from other members.


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## Stealth

hassan1 said:


> PAF F-16D BLOCK 52
> http://img99.imageshack.us/i/f16d2.jpg/
> http://img62.imageshack.us/i/f16d1.jpg/
> http://img115.imageshack.us/i/000001244f4d34a705407c0.jpg/



I am pro Graphic Designer and these pictures are 101% fake photoshop. Pakistan Flag (FAKE)


Thanks


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## qsaark

Stealth said:


> I am pro Graphic Designer and these pictures are 101% fake photoshop. Pakistan Flag (FAKE)
> 
> 
> Thanks


Referring to your post #216 where you have posted the video. The Plane has the flag on it. Are you suggesting that the the F-16 showed in the inaugural ceremony is also PSed?


----------



## x_man

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF F-16 fleet will be upgraded to block 52 till 2011.
> 
> 
> 
> Now till 2011
> 62 Block 52 F-16
> 100 + JF-17
> 8 to 10 J-10B
> 80 Mirage ROSE
> 55 F-7PG



MZubair I can understand your enthusiasm but in real world the numbers will be quite low that you have projected here. By 2011, deliveries will be still going underway for Block 52 , MLU F-16s will still be under 10, PAF will still be sticking to existing fleeting of two squadrons of F-7 PGs and of course no J-10 by then. FC-20 has still a long way to go before we see them flying in PAF. Thunder will be operational at max in two squadrons by mid of 2011.

With block 52 the whole training regime in PAF will change. Until now we have been simulating LIMA Vs BVR, and when once we have the real thing i.e. AMRAAM, every PAF pilot will be trained against one of the best BVRs in the market. Although we still be having far less BVR capable aircrafts than IAF, but Block 52s will force IAF too to adopt anti-BVR countermeasures and hence a major change in their tactics against PAF. Similarly each PAF pilot will not only be in far better position to deploy his/her tactics against incoming IAF threat but also improve their chances to achieve a kill on the opponent. 

Meanwhile the Induction of Block 52 and MLU are still going on, PAF should continue with Thunder, FC-20 and other projects with Chinese. Honeymoon period with USA can be over anytime soon and we dont want to plummet into the same sanctions / embargo abyss once again. Its about time that we learn from the past and move very cautiously in the future.

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## sonicboom

delteted the message


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## Storm Force

Great looking Plane. The F16. vipers. 

PAF could do alot worse than obtain second hand F16s from USA Europe as western nations switch to F35 JSF over next 5-10 years. 

Rather than just 60 planes PAF could easily double that number in 5 years. 

There will be hundreds of F16 available soon for very low prices


----------



## nightrider_saulat

Black blood said:


> Hello
> 
> I am glad to see the healthy Discussions of F16's .
> 
> Members please advice , our old fleet of F16 A/B is going to get MLU( upgraded to block 52 standard)
> Correct me if i am wrong , i want to know whether there would be any significant Airframe changes taking place in the MLU ?
> If so i am looking forward for our f16's to be more capable.
> 
> JF17 must have an AESA radar western Avionics , Conformal fuel tanks , Airframe changes , power fulll engine maybe ws10 .
> Thurst vactoring .
> 
> F16,JF17 ,FC20 is a lethal combination.
> 
> UAE is looking to buy Rafale , should we look into buy their Mirage 2000-9 ?
> Or Turkish airforce's F16 block 50's?
> 
> Its a good option to fill our gap until we get a 5th gen fighter.
> 
> Another aspect can be Pakistan havin SAM's such as Sapada , S300 , or ask us to buy Patriot?
> Regards:



*we already possessed MBDA SPADA 2000​*


----------



## nightrider_saulat

IceCold said:


> Read my post again and dont put words into my mouth, F-16 maybe the best dog fighter in the world, i haven't disputed that, my whole point is that the days for a typical dog fight are over and modern combat depends upon BVR. First look first kill.
> So if a J-10 has a first lock on the F-16, J-10 has an advantage. Situational awareness and finding out your enemy first is what will be a game changer.





truepakistani17 said:


> sie with all respect i think it will be really foolish decesion. J10 is going to come as a fighter that we can play with according to our desires whereas F16 always have lots of strings atatched. i agree with Sir TOPGUN that it wont be wise to look toward US for any future mlitary procurements.
> what do you think?



*chinese radars are nothing in front of american radars infact americans are ahead of chinese in every field of warfare
and plus our experience with F-16S meant alot
when it comes to select an absolute 4.5th generation aircraft​*


----------



## Student

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> We need to understand that if we have another compatible aircraft like the fc 20 in our air force---there will be no sanctions and no problems with the deliveriers of F16's.
> 
> The reason for the original sanctions was containment and punishment---.
> 
> I mean to say if we can go next door and get the same item for a similiar price and no strings attached---where is the punishment.



This is the very reason Pakistan got F-16 C&D in the first place.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

AGM-65G

Maverick G is the follow-on Maverick D but the shaped-charge warhead has been replaced with a blast fragmentation warhead. The IR guidance system has been modified for optimized larger targets tracking.

Specifications
Dimensions: Diameter 300 mm, Length 2.5 m, Width 710 mm

Weights: Max Weight 301 kg (664 lb), Warhead 136 kg (300 lb)

Performance: *Max Range 24,000 m* (78,740 ft), Min Range 100 m (328 ft)


----------



## owais.usmani

Video by Lockheed Martin about the capabilities of F-16 block 52 *(Must Watch!!)*


----------



## raveolution

Stealth please don't start a Pak vs India thing here again... enough attempts have been made to hijack this thread ... Lets talk about the Blk 52's.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Myth_buster_1

owais.usmani said:


> Video by Lockheed Martin about the capabilities of F-16 block 52 *(Must Watch!!)*
> 
> 
> [url="
> 
> 
> 
> Block 50/52 (Lockheed Martin)[/url]


here is another video.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Maverick K models are currently in development. They were developed by taking a G model and replacing the IR guidance system with an electro-optical television guidance system.

Maverick K and H models are currently in production. The Maverick K model was developed by taking a G model and replacing the IR guidance system with an electro-optical television guidance system.


----------



## TOPGUN

I would agree with trying to get turkish f-16's again US has to agree and the turks have to be willing to sell! second the whole uae mirage thing again we have talked about this before i don't see that happening again not like i wouldn't like to see it happen we should approuch uae for this matter and also the turks for there f-16's if thats wat our top brases in PAF want.


----------



## TOPGUN

PakShaheen79 said:


> Yeah 18 more F-16 will be great but i highly highly doubt if Pakistan will ever go for these.
> 
> To me Pakistan must put that money to engage Girfo, Selex, Thelas etc. to develop a AESA radar for Pakistani fighters along with other avionics. Era of F-16s are coming to an end in 2020s.



Well the option is there brother! and i never said that they would a option/ thought is wat i meant.. we don't know wat will happen in the future lets just get the 18 first then we shall see wat we can add on our plates..


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## MALIKATIF

its good news too.we have too take more latest aircraft and should be built locally in kamra with joint ventures.


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## MALIKATIF

yes its good news


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## MALIKATIF

its nice thinking pf paf,and should beat india in this art


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## DANGER-ZONE

hassan1 said:


> PAF F-16D BLOCK 52
> http://img99.imageshack.us/i/f16d2.jpg/
> http://img62.imageshack.us/i/f16d1.jpg/
> http://img115.imageshack.us/i/000001244f4d34a705407c0.jpg/
> http://img115.imageshack.us/i/000001244f4b99be902e048.jpg/



*Pakisatn's flag looks so good in its tru colours over here.
Alas,PAF has lost PAK flag true colours on c-130,f-16,jf-17 and mirage3-rose,by copying west specially USAF.*

i over here want to raise a voice to re paint PAF logos in GREEN & WHITE rather then gray & white.Because its our identity.


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## Zulfiqar

Amraams are missing in this picture. Whereas we can see them in the Chief's speech picture.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Myth_buster_1

x_man said:


> Meanwhile the Induction of Block 52 and MLU are still going on, PAF should continue with Thunder, FC-20 and other projects with Chinese. Honeymoon period with USA can be over anytime soon and we dont want to plummet into the same sanctions / embargo abyss once again. Its about time that we learn from the past and move very cautiously in the future.



If that situation arises when we have just few new f-16s delivered and MLU stopped i will fully support the plan of supplying latest technologies to china for copies.

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## Myth_buster_1

Mian Asad said:


> Amraams are missing in this picture. Whereas we can see them in the Chief's speech picture.



i think the ceremony was held for 2+ days. one day it came with AMRAAM and the other day it didnt.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Growler said:


> If that situation arises when we have just few new f-16s delivered and MLU stopped i will fully support the plan of supplying latest technologies to china for copies.



i totally agree and respect ur idea.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Mian Asad said:


> Amraams are missing in this picture. Whereas we can see them in the Chief's speech picture.



ACM took them home with him self as intial delivery of AMRAAM.
thats why imediatly after the ceremoney they take it offlol:


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## Zulfiqar

> ACM took them home with him self as intial delivery of AMRAAM.
> thats why imediatly after the ceremoney they take it off



He should also take the targeting pod with him too for research(read reverse engineering) purposes. We would return it back after some time.


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## MastanKhan

Student said:


> This is the very reason Pakistan got F-16 C&D in the first place.



Hi,

I missed what you wanted to say---could you please explain it a little bit more. Thanks.


----------



## Student

Dear since we are going to have FC-20 and there is a very high probability that china will not ditch pakistan's bid of FC-20 precurement hence no punishment and no containment by US in this context and we get F-16 C&D's.

*But the great thing is PAF will be in a unique position of pitting F-16 against FC-20 and JF-17*.


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## Speeder

Growler said:


> If that situation arises when we have just few new f-16s delivered and MLU stopped i will fully support the plan of supplying latest technologies to china for copies.



One close look at F-16s C/Ds, Chinese manufactuers will come up with facilities to 
mass-produce the killer of F-16s M/Ns in no time.  

One the side note, the fact that the US sells them to Pakistan without any worry 
proves that they probably believe that the lastest Chinese tech is at least 
at the same level of F-16s C/Ds.

Anyway,You now have another sharp knife in your drawer to cut through Su30 MKI! 

*Congradulations, Pakistan! *

Reactions: Like Like:
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## PakShaheen79

Speeder said:


> *One close look at F-16s C/Ds, Chinese manufactuers will come up with facilities to
> mass-produce the killer of F-16s M/Ns in no time*.
> 
> *One the side note, the fact that the US sells them to Pakistan without any worry
> proves that they probably believe that the lastest Chinese tech is at least
> at the same level of F-16s C/Ds.*
> 
> Anyway,You now have another sharp knife in your drawer to cut through Su30 MKI!
> 
> *Congradulations, Pakistan! *



1- Does China produce anything like F-16 Block 52 engine?... I doubt that. But I am more than positive that one day this will also happen Inshallah in form of WS-10A.

2-There are clauses about Pakistan not sharing anything sensitive about these birds to "non concerned" people.

3- Thanks for Congratulations.


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## wild peace

Yes guys definitely it is a matter of congratulation

Sir Pakshaheen and others please clearify that we again carry our fuel tanks under wings *not on* it. Like This Picture

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## mhacsan

where are the CFT fellows???


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## Patriot

Growler said:


> If that situation arises when we have just few new f-16s delivered and MLU stopped i will fully support the plan of supplying latest technologies to china for copies.


I second that.


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## Speeder

PakShaheen79 said:


> 1- Does China produce anything like F-16 Block 52 engine?... I doubt that. But I am more than positive that one day this will also happen Inshallah in form of WS-10A.
> 
> 2-There are clauses about Pakistan not sharing anything sensitive about these birds to "non concerned" people.
> 
> 3- Thanks for Congratulations.



You have a wonderful sense of humor!


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## abbasniazi

Congrats to pakistan.

However, PAF should concentrate its efforts to persuade the USA for allowing it to purchase second hand birds from thrid parties and their upgradation from turkey.

If we can bring up F-16 number to 200, it would surly be a great punch to deal with both SU-30 MKI and MRCA coz we'd be in defencive mode and our SAMs would multiply our potential to defend.

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## owais.usmani

hacsan said:


> where are the CFT fellows???



Conformal fuel tanks are removable. They can and most probably will be added later on.


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## RameeX Xaved

abbasniazi said:


> Congrats to pakistan.
> 
> However, PAF should concentrate its efforts to persuade the USA for allowing it to purchase second hand birds from thrid parties and their upgradation from turkey.
> 
> If we can bring up F-16 number to 200, it would surly be a great punch to deal with both SU-30 MKI and MRCA coz we'd be in defencive mode and our SAMs would multiply our potential to defend.




200 F-16s  even if we are given the permission from 'concerned' authorities, do we still have enough funds for more of these toys with on going projects like Jf-17s and J-10 babies?


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## Myth_buster_1

wild peace said:


> Yes guys definitely it is a matter of congratulation
> 
> Sir Pakshaheen and others please clearify that we again carry our fuel tanks under wings *not on* it. Like This Picture



In case of F-16, CTF (Conformal Fuel Tanks) are always carried on the fuselage while it is carried by the side of F-15 air intake. 



hacsan said:


> where are the CFT fellows???


dont worry they are part of the deal, just because you dont see it does not mean we are not getting it. mind you JDAM JASOW were not also shown in the ceremony.

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## PakShaheen79

Speeder said:


> You have a wonderful sense of humor!



Honored 
But why don't you answer my question. Mate i am one big supporter of Chinese products but if we look at J-11 program it is Chinese pilots who thinks that WS-10A take longer to accelerate. I do hope that this problem solved in minimum possible time as this is same engine which would be used on FC-20.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I love the body work on the F16 ... pretty impressive ....

I heard US is making some new varients of F16 ... new birds any chance we might get 6-12 new birds like UAE has ?? Those machines look mean with extra feul capacity


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## DaRk WaVe

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I love the body work on the F16 ... pretty impressive ....
> 
> I heard US is making some new varients of F16 ... new birds any chance we might get 6-12 *new birds like UAE has* ?? Those machines look mean with extra feul capacity



UAE has F-16 Block 60...
*
F-16 E/F (Block 60)*
The first order for 80 F-16 Block 60, which has been designated the F-16E/F version, was received from the air Force of the United Arab Emirates (UAE) in early 2000. First production deliveries of the UAE aircraft are slated for April 2004. The F-16E/F resembles earlier F-16 aircraft in appearance only. Internally, the new model has an all-new cockpit that features all-digital instruments and three 5x7-inch color displays, HUD and helmet mounted sight and display. Additionally, the F-16E/F features a new avionics suite with highlights including a revolutionary Electronic Warfare (EW) system, the new *APG-80* an.*Agile Beam Radar (ABR) and a new Integrated FLIR Targeting System (IFTS), all provided by Northrop Grumm
*
The aircraft is powered by a *General Electric F110-GE-132 engine* that produces 32,500 pounds of thrust. The new engine was flight tested on modified USAF F-16C at the Air Force Flight Test Center, Edwards Air Force Base, Calif. The new engine version features blisks (bladed-disks) in the three-stage modular fan section in lieu of traditional blades to improve performance and maintainability. The engine also incorporates an enhanced durability radial augmentor (afterburner) and exhaust nozzle, plus control software modifications to optimize engine performance at all flight conditions. The Block 60 aircraft and engine also will feature an auto-throttle capability.

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## ice_man

the UAE F-16 is expensive!!! infact damn expensive! currently we are not in a financial position to buy such a fighter or shall i say fighters....if we had the money we could have considered even RAFALE but we cannot...so let's just be happy with a squadron of BLK 52s.


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## PAFAce

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I love the body work on the F16 ... pretty impressive ....
> 
> I heard US is making some new varients of F16 ... new birds any chance we might get 6-12 new birds like UAE has ?? Those machines look mean with extra feul capacity


Considering the Return on Investment, the F-16 Block 60 will not be the best choice for the PAF right now. It is too expensive and tailored to meet the needs of the UAEAF only. Even the USAF does not operate Block 60s. Block 52 is our best bet right now. Be happy with what you're getting, it's one of the best machines we could hope for.

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## MZUBAIR

I think we have new bench mark and more req for JF-17 n J-10B as we get new Block 52 .


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## nightrider_saulat

*can we assue that block 60 can deal easily with su-30 mki in air combat*


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## ice_man

nightrider_saulat said:


> *can we assue that block 60 can deal easily with su-30 mki in air combat*



assumption & easy our words that you shouldn't go to war armed with!

anyhow does anyone know what happened to the AIDEWS pods we were supposed to be buying.....for around $75million its almost two years and no news...no contract no nothing.....


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## marcos98

F-16 block-50\52 Explained

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Awesome post by marcos ~ 

Well since Block 60 are available, pakistan should just get *12 of block 60* since US is extra nice to us now. Yes these are epensive units but , also lets not froget out old crafts are putting on milage on fighting missions in some areas

We really do deserve these block60 even more then UAE

And may be use these crafts as strategic fighters with in sqaudrons , 

2 Block 60 , 4 F-16(Block A) ,5 JF thunder , 1 Mirage combinations

It would make a great - combination for a unit

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## Adios Amigo

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Awesome post by marcos ~
> 
> Well since Block 60 are available, pakistan should just get *12 of block 60* since US is extra nice to us now. Yes these are epensive units but , also lets not froget out old crafts are putting on milage on fighting missions in some areas
> 
> We really do deserve these block60 even more then UAE
> 
> And may be use these crafts as strategic fighters with in sqaudrons ,
> 
> 2 Block 60 , 4 F-16(Block A) ,5 JF thunder , 1 Mirage combinations
> 
> It would make a great - combination for a unit



hummmmmmmm what a wish list, dont u think we also deserve some raptors, get out of your dreams, and wat kind of a squadron are u forming man o man whats in your head

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## MAB

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Awesome post by marcos ~
> 
> Well since Block 60 are available, pakistan should just get *12 of block 60* since US is extra nice to us now. Yes these are epensive units but , also lets not froget out old crafts are putting on milage on fighting missions in some areas
> 
> We really do deserve these block60 even more then UAE
> 
> And may be use these crafts as strategic fighters with in sqaudrons ,
> 
> 2 Block 60 , 4 F-16(Block A) ,5 JF thunder , 1 Mirage combinations
> 
> It would make a great - combination for a unit



Its not as simple as you put it. getting highly advanced fighters is not really easy. It took really long to get the F-16 blk 52 from the U.S which haven't even been delivered yet what makes you think that they would even want to sell them to Pakistan. Plus its really expensive the only country that operate the blk 60 is the UAE. Pakistan is not in a position where we could afford planes like those.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

MAB said:


> Its not as simple as you put it. getting highly advanced fighters is not really easy. It took really long to get the F-16 blk 52 from the U.S which haven't even been delivered yet what makes you think that they would even want to sell them to Pakistan. Plus its really expensive the only country that operate the blk 60 is the UAE. Pakistan is not in a position where we could afford planes like those.



Well I think Pakistan should be shown some love , by US , for our war support in against taliban. Block 52 are what we agreed on 2 years ago in 2006 right. 

We are not talking about current engagements , and may be if we can get these block 60 by 2015 for these operations our army will do in waziristan it would be wonderful reward ... and fair reward.

After all US and Pakistan have been working closely -  So I don't see the problem ... we scratch your back you scrtach our back

Clearly if Pakistan Army will be deployed in curshing out talibans then obviously we need some sweet loving


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## deathfromabove

Don't sweat people InshAllah we'll have jets better than F-16s in years to come.


AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Clearly if Pakistan Army will be deployed in curshing out talibans then obviously we need some sweet loving


And its about time we start depending on ourselves than US. Rest assure when this thing is over, we'll be slapped with embargoes just like in the 80s.


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## MAB

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well I think Pakistan should be shown some love , by US , for our war support in against taliban. Block 52 are what we agreed on 2 years ago in 2006 right.
> 
> We are not talking about current engagements , and may be if we can get these block 60 by 2015 for these operations our army will do in waziristan it would be wonderful reward ... and fair reward.
> 
> After all US and Pakistan have been working closely -  So I don't see the problem ... we scratch your back you scrtach our back
> 
> Clearly if Pakistan Army will be deployed in curshing out talibans then obviously we need some sweet loving



The Pakistani government is not doing the operation for free now is it. The U.S has been providing us with money since the start of the war around 1 billion dollars a year on military. so it really not like we are doing it for free. we are being rewarded every now and then.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I mean E-3 Sentry would be a good reward, or F16 block 60 12 of them .. 

I mean this little candy , weaponry , like heli copters or guns or like bullet proof vests etc  we can get that in blouchistan 

I mean really , would a real friend in war on terror would give us a spoon and ask us to dig a big hole where we can put all the talibans 

The bigger the device we have the better /sooner we can get all talibans under 6 feet down the ground...

E-3 sentry & F16 block 60 would do magic ...

All the current block 50 F16 are the ones Mushy arranged for us thru his old work , we need some new incentives


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I mean E-3 Sentry would be a good reward, or F16 block 60 12 of them .. 

I mean this little candy , weaponry , like heli copters or guns or like bullet proof vests etc  we can get that in blouchistan 

I mean really , would a real friend in war on terror would give us a spoon and ask us to dig a big hole where we can put all the talibans 

The bigger the device we have the better /sooner we can get all talibans under 6 feet down the ground...

E-3 sentry & F16 block 60 would do magic ...


Also when we get the alleged billion no one knows where it goes , which account I mean , at leats with some thing physical like e-3 sentry or F16 block 60 (12 of them) we can say ok here is the money and return on investment 

All the current block 50 F16 are the ones Mushy arranged for us thru his old work , we need some new incentives


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## nightrider_saulat

*don't think about block 60 block 52 hi mil gaye hain kafi hai*


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## DANGER-ZONE

nightrider_saulat said:


> *don't think about block 60 block 52 hi mil gaye hain kafi hai*



*acha to zara ye to batao yarr,ke itna bara Pakistan 18 blk 52 kis ke sar per maray ga*.
its not enough,wat ever it is blok 52 or 60 we need more birds.
b/c rest of our pilots cannot fly by their own and cannot take weapons on their hands.


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## Gin ka Pakistan

All credit goes to General Musharraf for the F-16 C/D deal.  
Present Government can't buy any thing which can be used against India from USA, isn't that the new aid deal?

http://www.jang-group.com/jang/oct2009-daily/18-10-2009/cartoon.html

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## Patriot

Yaar kuch sakoon karo..abhi 18 aye nahi aur new f-16s kee agg lag gae hay

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## PakShaheen79

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I mean E-3 Sentry would be a good reward, or F16 block 60 12 of them ..
> 
> I mean this little candy , weaponry , like heli copters or guns or like bullet proof vests etc  we can get that in blouchistan
> 
> I mean really , would a real friend in war on terror would give us a spoon and ask us to dig a big hole where we can put all the talibans
> 
> The bigger the device we have the better /sooner we can get all talibans under 6 feet down the ground...
> 
> *E-3 sentry & F16 block 60 would do magic ...*
> 
> 
> Also when we get the alleged billion no one knows where it goes , which account I mean , at leats with some thing physical like e-3 sentry or F16 block 60 (12 of them) we can say ok here is the money and return on investment
> 
> All the current block 50 F16 are the ones Mushy arranged for us thru his old work , we need some new incentives



Why US is unable to have them all in Afghanistan? You need much more than jet fighters in a war and particularly if talking about COIN.


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## nightrider_saulat

danger-zone said:


> *acha to zara ye to batao yarr,ke itna bara Pakistan 18 blk 52 kis ke sar per maray ga*.
> its not enough,wat ever it is blok 52 or 60 we need more birds.
> b/c rest of our pilots cannot fly by their own and cannot take weapons on their hands.



*also note that there also an option available of 18 more C/Ds and 45 of our f-16s will also be upgraded upto block 52 standards by the end of 2012
so things are not looking bad in shape*


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## PakShaheen79

nightrider_saulat said:


> also note that there also an option available of 18 more C/Ds and 45 of our f-16s will also be upgraded upto block 52 standards by the end of 2012
> *so things are not looking bad in shape*



But after MMRCA in IAF, PAF will again having same threat level on Eastern borders as it is facing today. I am not that worried about MKI though it is very dangerous plane but my real worries is about MMRCA which will be part of IAF in 2015-17 time frame. I don't think going for another 18 F-16 will be best move instead we must go for more R&D for Thunders and FC-20 with Chinese companies.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Gin ka Pakistan said:


> All credit goes to General Musharraf for the F-16 C/D deal.
> Present Government can't buy any thing which can be used against India from USA, isn't that the new aid deal?
> 
> Jang Group Online



hahahahahaaaaa
good one


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## DANGER-ZONE

PakShaheen79 said:


> But after MMRCA in IAF, PAF will again having same threat level on Eastern borders as it is facing today. I am not that worried about MKI though it is very dangerous plane but my real worries is about MMRCA which will be part of IAF in 2015-17 time frame. I don't think going for another 18 F-16 will be best move instead we must go for more R&D for Thunders and FC-20 with Chinese companies.


so tru man,its going to a monstar force.but they now hav two coutries to counter china n pakitan and a big land too.thats the reason y they r making it so big.but no matter wat happen,india is the biggest threat for pakistan.they cant see us happy b/c our forfather break thier india super power baharat


nightrider_saulat said:


> *also note that there also an option available of 18 more C/Ds and 45 of our f-16s will also be upgraded upto block 52 standards by the end of 2012
> so things are not looking bad in shape*



money is the reason.i think we should request zardari sahab to giv 10% donation from their private bank balance to PAF,so they can buy remaining f16s


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## MZUBAIR

PakShaheen79 said:


> But after MMRCA in IAF, PAF will again having same threat level on Eastern borders as it is facing today. I am not that worried about MKI though it is very dangerous plane but my real worries is about MMRCA which will be part of IAF in 2015-17 time frame. I don't think going for another 18 F-16 will be best move instead we must go for more R&D for Thunders and FC-20 with Chinese companies.



yet they are not able to decide MRCA .......so thinking abt MMRCA is useless at the moment.
If they deal MRCA today they will not be able get it be 2015.
Dont wory PAF is not sleeping!!!! We will do our best.
Some encouraging news for u in my next bottom post


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## MZUBAIR




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## MZUBAIR

MZUBAIR said:


>



Few good things in todays news post (express news paper)


We are getting 4 Block 52 in this December.
J-10B or FC-20 deal is going to be finalized, *so we might see more numbers then 36.*
*We will get all F-16 till 2010.*
PAF have 46 F-16, 121 Mirage & 88 F-7P. Means PAF already grounding old jets especially Mirage III/ V and F-7
 Lateat avoinics for all 60 + F-16 will be delivered in 2010

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## MZUBAIR

raveolution said:


> Lol bro it seems that you didnt read my reply to your earlier post. Anyways to each his own. Appreciate it if u can read it and following comments from other members.



Dear, I always say this 



> Now till 2011
> 62 Block 52 F-16
> 100 + JF-17
> 8 to 10 J-10B
> 80 Mirage ROSE
> 55 F-7PG
> 
> Enough to keep balance till 2011 against 150 MKI, 50 to 60 Mig 29 and 45 Mirage 2K.
> Keeping in mind IAF threat from both PLAAF and PAF




You and others dont believe.
so plz read this front news, which is in almost all of todays news papers in Pak.



>



*I can translate it, if u cant understand urdu*


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## MZUBAIR

x_man said:


> MZubair I can understand your enthusiasm but in real world the numbers will be quite low that you have projected here. By 2011, deliveries&#8217; will be still going underway for Block 52 , MLU F-16s will still be under 10, PAF will still be sticking to existing fleeting of two squadrons of F-7 PGs and of course no J-10 by then. FC-20 has still a long way to go before we see them flying in PAF. Thunder will be operational at max in two squadrons by mid of 2011.
> 
> With block 52 the whole training regime in PAF will change. Until now we have been simulating LIMA Vs BVR, and when once we have the real thing i.e. AMRAAM, every PAF pilot will be trained against one of the best BVRs in the market. Although we still be having far less BVR capable aircrafts than IAF, but Block 52s will force IAF too to adopt anti-BVR countermeasures and hence a major change in their tactics against PAF. Similarly each PAF pilot will not only be in far better position to deploy his/her tactics against incoming IAF threat but also improve their chances to achieve a kill on the opponent.
> 
> Meanwhile the Induction of Block 52 and MLU are still going on, PAF should continue with Thunder, FC-20 and other projects with Chinese. Honeymoon period with USA can be over anytime soon and we don&#8217;t want to plummet into the same sanctions / embargo abyss once again. It&#8217;s about time that we learn from the past and move very cautiously in the future.



Dear Sir, I am refering this news (from express news paper) for u, to prove my words.





I can asure u that PAF is so much concious now to get 200 to 300 4th and 4.5 generation fighters b4 2015.

I always say


> PAF till end of 2011.
> 62 Block 52 F-16
> 100 + JF-17
> 8 to 10 J-10B
> 80 Mirage ROSE
> 55 F-7PG
> 
> Enough to keep balance till 2011 against 150 MKI, 50 to 60 Mig 29 and 45 Mirage 2K.
> Keeping in mind IAF threat from both PLAAF and PAF


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## MZUBAIR

looks PAF might sold or grounded old F-7 and mirage coz..PAF had approx 200 F7 (including PG) and 200 Mirage some years ago.


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## ice_man

FMS: Pakistan Requests AN/ALQ-211(V)9 AIDEWS Pods

Pakistan - AN/ALQ-211(V)9 AIDEWS Pods

guys any update on this.....


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## Sunny4pak

it will be a real great achievement by PAF if F-16 Block 52 and those BVRs delivered to PAF before the end of 2010.............
Regards,
Sunny


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## raveolution

MZUBAIR said:


> Dear Sir, I am refering this news (from express news paper) for u, to prove my words.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can asure u that PAF is so much concious now to get 200 to 300 4th and 4.5 generation fighters b4 2015.
> 
> I always say



Thanks Mzubair. If the article says so, then there must be some truth in it. Could u please translate just the main points of the article? I hope this is not one of the Urdu papers which many Pakistani's say are unreliable (My knowledge on this subject is very limited.)

Thanks in advance.


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## monitor

paf is getting only 62 f-16 block52 ?!!and 18 new that makes 80 this surely not enough to face 400+ iaf's 4th+ generatrion fighter and again most of the fighter are MLU, btw by doing MLU how long long a fighter's life can extended except the avionics as it surely could be new one ?


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## TOPGUN

62 blk 52's ? more like 18 and the remaning old f-16's will go through mlu!


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## marcos98




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## owais.usmani



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## PAFAce

monitor said:


> paf is getting only 62 f-16 block52 ?!!and 18 new that makes 80 this surely not enough to face 400+ iaf's 4th+ generatrion fighter and again most of the fighter are MLU, btw by doing MLU how long long a fighter's life can extended except the avionics as it surely could be new one ?





TOPGUN said:


> 62 blk 52's ? more like 18 and the remaning old f-16's will go through mlu!



Well, going by the name "Mid Life Upgrade", I'm assuming that the upgrades will extend the service life to as many years of service as has already been achieved. That is, it _should_ extend the life of our F-16s to beyond the next decade, maybe even into the 2030s (we're very good at extracting every last bit of juice from our hardware, ex. Mirages, A-5s, F-7s).

After the MLU, our F-16s should be very close to the Block 52 standard, which means that for objective purposes, we can consider them F-16 Block 50s. Thus, the total number after the 18 new ones and 54 MLU minus 9 lost should be 63 F-16s Block 50/52. Let me tell you, that will give us great punching power against any Indian threat.


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## DANGER-ZONE

owais.usmani said:


>



its photoshoped but look gud.background is fake.


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## nightrider_saulat

danger-zone said:


> so tru man,its going to a monstar force.but they now hav two coutries to counter china n pakitan and a big land too.thats the reason y they r making it so big.but no matter wat happen,india is the biggest threat for pakistan.they cant see us happy b/c our forfather break thier india super power baharat
> 
> 
> money is the reason.i think we should request zardari sahab to giv 10% donation from their private bank balance to PAF,so they can buy remaining f16s



*yeah same problem .....money!
but we can generate money allocated for J-10
on further sales of 18 more F-16s to PAF by 2011
by keeping in my mind that F-16 block 52 is a much more lethal and versatile fighter than J-10*


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## PAFAce

nightrider_saulat said:


> keeping in my mind that F-16 block 52 is a much more lethal and versatile fighter than J-10


Please, sir, justify this statement.


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## DANGER-ZONE

nightrider_saulat said:


> *yeah same problem .....money!
> but we can generate money allocated for J-10
> on further sales of 18 more F-16s to PAF by 2011
> by keeping in my mind that F-16 block 52 is a much more lethal and versatile fighter than J-10*



we r nt getting j10 yarr,its fc20/f10.which according to some senior members and on other websites,superior to j10 and realy is a 4+ gen fighter.it would be able to load upto 12 missiles,includind 10bvr.
and Pakistan already looking for a good AESA radar for it.
im damn sure that this is wat we call f10/fc20.






but yaa we should go for 18 more blk52.


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## DANGER-ZONE

we must go for remaining f16 blk52 and must paint gray flags of our fighter into green.
cuz its not good to change the true colour of our nation flag.


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## PakShaheen79

danger-zone said:


> we must go for remaining f16 blk52 and must paint gray flags of our fighter into green.
> cuz its not good to change the true colour of our nation flag.



Well first 18 took more than 3 years ... In US Pak relations that is lot of time span. Apart from financial problems I think political hurdles are another problem.
Let's assume we get other 18 as well and get all older ones to MLU3. Now I don't think even after doing all this we will able to meet MKI+MMRCA threat in number and quality in future.

That's where FC-20 fits in the equation. 36 FC-20 + 18 Block 52 + 40+MLUed F-16 will provide some time before we can place larger order of FC-20 and complete Thunder's procurement (250)... I think that is much more workable approach keeping in mind IAF future plans. Pakistan can even get FC-20 on deferred payment to China but it can't do same with other countries particularly to USA.

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## Stealth

PAFAce said:


> Well, going by the name "Mid Life Upgrade", I'm assuming that the upgrades will extend the service life to as many years of service as has already been achieved. That is, it _should_ extend the life of our F-16s to beyond the next decade, maybe even into the 2030s (we're very good at extracting every last bit of juice from our hardware, ex. Mirages, A-5s, F-7s).
> 
> After the MLU, our F-16s should be very close to the Block 52 standard, which means that for objective purposes, we can consider them F-16 Block 50s. Thus, the total number after the 18 new ones and 54 MLU minus 9 lost should be 63 F-16s Block 50/52. Let me tell you, that will give us great punching power against any Indian threat.



I agreed about the statement "Great punching Power" but dear kindly explain how against IAF 230 MKI + 126 (now IAF go for 200+) 200 MMRCA

60 Suppose 50/52 Block F16 + 36 J10 (100) VS (430 +) 4.5 Gen Aircraft i ddnt understand how we fight with them. We need atleast 200 F16s + 100+ any other 4.5 Aircraft. Its my opinion Pakistan close its F16 deal with US and move to Dassalt Rafale.

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## raveolution

Stealth said:


> I agreed about the statement "Great punching Power" but dear kindly explain how against IAF 230 MKI + 126 (now IAF go for 200+) 200 MMRCA
> 
> 60 Suppose 50/52 Block F16 + 36 J10 (100) VS (430 +) 4.5 Gen Aircraft i ddnt understand how we fight with them. We need atleast 200 F16s + 100+ any other 4.5 Aircraft. Its my opinion Pakistan close its F16 deal with US and move to Dassalt Rafale.



Finally someone who has pinpointed the problem the PAF will face in the future. Historically, the PAF has balanced the IAF's quantity through quality. However, going forward, qualitative and quantitative superiority would lie with the IAF. MKI numbers will also be 280 and not 230 now. So that's like a 5:1 ratio of frontline 4.5 gen aircraft.

Let's keep the "we are waiting for India to select its MRCA" discussion out of this. Are there any other way (Air defense, battle tactics, etc), that the PAF would have considered, keeping in mind that they would be well aware of the situation as well.


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## ice_man

raveolution said:


> Finally someone who has pinpointed the problem the PAF will face in the future. Historically, the PAF has balanced the IAF's quantity through quality. However, going forward, qualitative and quantitative superiority would lie with the IAF. MKI numbers will also be 280 and not 230 now. So that's like a 5:1 ratio of frontline 4.5 gen aircraft.
> 
> Let's keep the "we are waiting for India to select its MRCA" discussion out of this. Are there any other way (Air defense, battle tactics, etc), that the PAF would have considered, keeping in mind that they would be well aware of the situation as well.



see even currently PAF if you look at it in terms of equipment vs the IAF we are lagging we got no BVRs we got old fighters while the indians have Mirages,MiGs sukhois all BVR capable even the MiG 21s are upgraded to Bison level! 

HOWEVER, this is all on paper....we saw in December when PAF went into high alert mode after the whole indian threat of surgical strikes and so on PAF has a doctrine & pan to counter the indian tactics and BVR capable aircrafts....now once we get our very own BVR Air to air missiles they will act like a force multiplier for us as well as will radically change our Air forces...doctrine if we were not scared to be out numbered out gunned in DECEMBER i am sure will not be scared in the future....a military strategy is always made keeping in mind your limits as well as enemies sophisticated armament!!! so no worries! 18 BLK 52 might not be all we need but then again it is something if utilized efficiently can be lethal

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## Hyde

Stealth said:


> I agreed about the statement "Great punching Power" but dear kindly explain how against IAF 230 MKI + 126 (now IAF go for 200+) 200 MMRCA
> 
> 60 Suppose 50/52 Block F16 + 36 J10 (100) VS (430 +) 4.5 Gen Aircraft i ddnt understand how we fight with them. We need atleast 200 F16s + 100+ any other 4.5 Aircraft. Its my opinion Pakistan close its F16 deal with US and move to Dassalt Rafale.



well not all the aircrafts will be used for Pakistan....... india has other enemies like China, Bangladesh and other neighbour countries and she will need to station large number of these aircrafts on other parts of its border too while Pakistan's sole enemy is India and stationing very small number of aircrafts near China, Iran and Afghanistan is fine since we don't have any war like tensions between these countries


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## MZUBAIR

raveolution said:


> Thanks Mzubair. If the article says so, then there must be some truth in it. Could u please translate just the main points of the article? I hope this is not one of the Urdu papers which many Pakistani's say are unreliable (My knowledge on this subject is very limited.)
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Yeah sure
Few good things in that news post (express news paper)


We are getting 4 Block 52 in this December 09.
J-10B or FC-20 deal is going to be finalized, *so probab more req and more number of AC then 36.*
*We will get all F-16 till 2010.*
PAF have 46 F-16, 121 Mirage & 88 F-7P. Means PAF already grounding old jets especially Mirage III/ V and F-7
 Lateat avoinics & upgradation of all 60 + F-16 will be completed in 2010

Express News Channel and Express Newz paper is very respectable news agency in Pakistan.

Express News Paper
Express News Channel


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## Sunny4pak

I think J-10 is better than F-16 block 52.........
there is famous quote that mean ............. something is better that u have in ur hands than the one which is so far away.............


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## Adios Amigo

Sunny4pak said:


> I think J-10 is better than F-16 block 52.........
> there is famous quote that mean ............. something is better that u have in ur hands than the one which is so far away.............



that would be>>> a bird in hand, is better then two in the bush


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## Sunny4pak

Love to see these birds in PAF before the end of 2010........
May it so happened soon


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## PAFAce

Stealth said:


> I agreed about the statement "Great punching Power" but dear kindly explain how against IAF 230 MKI + 126 (now IAF go for 200+) 200 MMRCA
> 
> 60 Suppose 50/52 Block F16 + 36 J10 (100) VS (430 +) 4.5 Gen Aircraft i ddnt understand how we fight with them. We need atleast 200 F16s + 100+ any other 4.5 Aircraft. Its my opinion Pakistan close its F16 deal with US and move to Dassalt Rafale.


Sir, you misunderstood. Never will 63 F-16 Block52 (or MLU) and 36 FC-20 take on 230 Su-30MKI + 200 MMRCA-winner. That will never happen. It's going to be far smaller contingents of the two that will ever see each other. And in that scenario, their numerical superiority doesn't matter too much.

Consider this: In 1965, we had about 100 F-86 Sabres, and only 16 (or 19) of them were equipped capable of firing IR missiles (I think AIM-9 Sidewinders, but I'm not sure). However, because of this, every time an F-86 was spotted, it had to be treated as one that could fire these missiles. So what ended up happening was, theoretically for them, every Sabre we flew became one that carried Sidewinders. _That_ was one of the main reasons why IAF pilots just could not dictate the terms of the fight. So, when you say "62 F-16 + 36 FC-20 don't match Indian arsenal", you are oversimplifying.

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## Stealth

PAFAce said:


> Sir, you misunderstood. Never will 63 F-16 Block52 (or MLU) and 36 FC-20 take on 230 Su-30MKI + 200 MMRCA-winner. That will never happen. It's going to be far smaller contingents of the two that will ever see each other. And in that scenario, their numerical superiority doesn't matter too much.
> 
> Consider this: In 1965, we had about 100 F-86 Sabres, and only 16 (or 19) of them were equipped capable of firing IR missiles (I think AIM-9 Sidewinders, but I'm not sure). However, because of this, every time an F-86 was spotted, it had to be treated as one that could fire these missiles. So what ended up happening was, theoretically for them, every Sabre we flew became one that carried Sidewinders. _That_ was one of the main reasons why IAF pilots just could not dictate the terms of the fight. So, when you say "62 F-16 + 36 FC-20 don't match Indian arsenal", you are oversimplifying.



Dear you ddnt get my point actually i am not talking about numbers (definitly we are 1/3 ratio) i am talking about Quality game. My focus on Tech 4.5 not numbers. 

We also have more thn ONE ENEMY if you see situation around Pakistan. We have more thn one Enemy around. If India have China & Pakistan, we have another one you guys knows very well. Hidden Truth but its better to prepare everything before any attempt from hidden Side. I think you will understand about whom i am talking. Anyway its off discussion my point is Tech. I dont think 50 (4.0 Suppose) VS 100 (4.5). Technically game on the Enemy side. I trust on PAF pilots PAF already shown his real face in previous war and recent Surgical strike event but in Real war time Today war is totally changed. BVR Game on fireeee!


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## Proud to be Pakistani

Stealth said:


> Dear you ddnt get my point actually i am not talking about numbers (definitly we are 1/3 ratio) i am talking about Quality game. My focus on Tech 4.5 not numbers.
> 
> We also have more thn ONE ENEMY if you see situation around Pakistan. We have more thn one Enemy around. If India have China & Pakistan, we have another one you guys knows very well. Hidden Truth but its better to prepare everything before any attempt from hidden Side. I think you will understand about whom i am talking. Anyway its off discussion my point is Tech. I dont think 50 (4.0 Suppose) VS 100 (4.5). Technically game on the Enemy side. I trust on PAF pilots PAF already shown his real face in previous war and recent Surgical strike event but in Real war time Today war is totally changed. BVR Game on fireeee!



Agreed about tech quality and all but as for the BVR game, knowing the distance between our border and bases in india, pakistan MRAAM will always be aleader than the BVRAM


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## nightrider_saulat

PAFAce said:


> Sir, you misunderstood. Never will 63 F-16 Block52 (or MLU) and 36 FC-20 take on 230 Su-30MKI + 200 MMRCA-winner. That will never happen. It's going to be far smaller contingents of the two that will ever see each other. And in that scenario, their numerical superiority doesn't matter too much.
> 
> Consider this: In 1965, we had about 100 F-86 Sabres, and only 16 (or 19) of them were equipped capable of firing IR missiles (I think AIM-9 Sidewinders, but I'm not sure). However, because of this, every time an F-86 was spotted, it had to be treated as one that could fire these missiles. So what ended up happening was, theoretically for them, every Sabre we flew became one that carried Sidewinders. _That_ was one of the main reasons why IAF pilots just could not dictate the terms of the fight. So, when you say "62 F-16 + 36 FC-20 don't match Indian arsenal", you are oversimplifying.


*i totally agree that number should always not have been be a problem for us​*


Sunny4pak said:


> I think J-10 is better than F-16 block 52.........
> there is famous quote that mean ............. something is better that u have in ur hands than the one which is so far away.............


*sorry f-16 is so lethal dog fighter that even USAF F-15E/F-strike eagles pilots have admitted without any shame that when you have got f-16 behind you in chase it is nearly impossible to get out of it's sight​*


MZUBAIR said:


> Yeah sure
> Few good things in that news post (express news paper)
> 
> 
> We are getting 4 Block 52 in this December 09.
> J-10B or FC-20 deal is going to be finalized, *so probab more req and more number of AC then 36.*
> *We will get all F-16 till 2010.*
> PAF have 46 F-16, 121 Mirage & 88 F-7P. Means PAF already grounding old jets especially Mirage III/ V and F-7
> Lateat avoinics & upgradation of all 60 + F-16 will be completed in 2010
> 
> Express News Channel and Express Newz paper is very respectable news agency in Pakistan.
> 
> Express News Paper
> Express News Channel



*it's a very good news that we are getting our upgraded F-16A/B(MLUs) before 2010
but we also need our all JF-17thunders blockI before 2010........
and i think that insha'allah we would also be successful in this too......
on the other other i hve some serious doubts that we are receiving our fc-20 before 2011​*

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## owais.usmani

*Rep. Kay Granger from Texas&#8217; 12th District; Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar, commander of Pakistan&#8217;s Air Force; Amb. Hussain Haqqani, Pakistani Ambassador to U.S.; and Gen. Norton A. Schwartz, U.S. Air Force Chief of Staff, pose for a photo opportunity after Pakistan&#8217;s first F-16 Block 52 Aircraft was rolled out during a ceremony in Fort Worth, Texas Oct. 13.​*










Above picture is not very clear but still you can clearly see the *AMRAAM* which is not visible in this picture:


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## PakShaheen79

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> Agreed about tech quality and all but as for the BVR game, *knowing the distance between our border and bases in india, pakistan MRAAM will always be aleader than the BVRAM*



 What does that exactly mean, BTW?


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## PakShaheen79

nightrider_saulat said:


> it's a very good news that we are getting our upgraded F-16A/B(MLUs) before 2010
> *but we also need our all JF-17thunders blockI before 2010........
> and i think that insha'allah we would also be successful in this too......*
> on the other other i hve some serious doubts that we are receiving our fc-20 before 2011​



Bro.. It will take some more time than that for Block -I Thunder to be inducted (i.e. 50). Till 2011 PAC will able to roll out 25/year. So may be we get all 50 inducted by end of 2011 or by early 2012 meanwhile PAF looking for avionics and radar for Block II.

FC-20, I agree, are not coming before 2014.


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## Novice09

Hello to all members,

From last six months, I'm following several defense websites and blogs specially those which are colligated with Bharat and Pakistan. I found that people want that there governments should get more n more weapons. 

Now, I just have one question. Why?

I know this post is on F16, which is a combat proven fighter monster. I think that 70+ F16s are enough for Pakistan to defend there country against any threat from their enemies because if their enemies will crush their fleet of 1000+, 4.5 gen fighter jets (just an example) Pakistan will surely use their Nukes. They can do the same if their 70+, 4 gen fighter jets' fleet is mashed up.

Instead of putting this huge money to purchase weapons from foreign countries, I serious believe that both countries should work to strengthen their domestic defense industry (as Bharat is doing by asking for complete ToT with MMRCA).

by the the way, as I told earlier F16 is a great fighter jet which Pakistan can get in such conditions.

Jai Hind!!!


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## MZUBAIR

Novice09 said:


> Hello to all members,
> 
> From last six months, I'm following several defense websites and blogs specially those which are colligated with Bharat and Pakistan. I found that people want that there governments should get more n more weapons.
> Now, I just have one question. Why?
> 
> I know this post is on F16, which is a combat proven fighter monster. I think that 70+ F16s are enough for Pakistan to defend there country against any threat from their enemies because if their enemies will crush their fleet of 1000+, 4.5 gen fighter jets (just an example) Pakistan will surely use their Nukes. They can do the same if their 70+, 4 gen fighter jets' fleet is mashed up.
> 
> Instead of putting this huge money to purchase weapons from foreign countries, I serious believe that both countries should work to strengthen their domestic defense industry (as Bharat is doing by asking for complete ToT with MMRCA).
> 
> by the the way, as I told earlier F16 is a great fighter jet which Pakistan can get in such conditions.
> 
> Jai Hind!!!



lolz...

Some one like you, discuss these concerns with Indian higher miltary and Gov administration.

Pakistan is forced to procure miltary weapons, coz India is to unbalance regional power.

Pakistan only procure miltary weapons, only and only to counter India.
India is planning to get 250 MKI, 126 MRCA n few more in plan....then definately Pakistan and China would have to procure n invest to keep up the balance in the region.

And one more thing, that PAF is not geting F-16 on any condition. Plz avoid senseless statements

Batter to stick on the topic or open new thread.


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## raveolution

MZUBAIR said:


> lolz...
> 
> Some one like you, discuss these concerns with Indian higher miltary and Gov administration.
> 
> Pakistan is forced to procure miltary weapons, coz India is to unbalance regional power.
> 
> Pakistan only procure miltary weapons, only and only to counter India.
> India is planning to get 250 MKI, 126 MRCA n few more in plan....then definately Pakistan and China would have to procure n invest to keep up the balance in the region.
> 
> And one more thing, that PAF is not geting F-16 on any condition. Plz avoid senseless statements
> 
> Batter to stick on the topic or open new thread.




Bro,first of all get over the fact that Indian is obsessed with Pakistan. It is the other way around. India now looks to China as a rival,not necessarily an enemy. 

And as for creating military imbalances, I think you should ask that to China. India uses about 2.5% of its GDP, Pakistan uses about 5% of its GDP and China uses 6% officially and upto 8% unofficially for defence allocation. If we really wanted a race, you would have seen 560 MKI's and 400 MRCA's.

And yes, lets stick to the topic. BTW no hesitation is saying that the F16's Blk 52's are really potent and amazing platforms.


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## raveolution

Novice09 said:


> Hello to all members,
> 
> From last six months, I'm following several defense websites and blogs specially those which are colligated with Bharat and Pakistan. I found that people want that there governments should get more n more weapons.
> 
> Now, I just have one question. Why?
> 
> I know this post is on F16, which is a combat proven fighter monster. I think that 70+ F16s are enough for Pakistan to defend there country against any threat from their enemies because if their enemies will crush their fleet of 1000+, 4.5 gen fighter jets (just an example) Pakistan will surely use their Nukes. They can do the same if their 70+, 4 gen fighter jets' fleet is mashed up.
> 
> Instead of putting this huge money to purchase weapons from foreign countries, I serious believe that both countries should work to strengthen their domestic defense industry (as Bharat is doing by asking for complete ToT with MMRCA).
> 
> by the the way, as I told earlier F16 is a great fighter jet which Pakistan can get in such conditions.
> 
> Jai Hind!!!



Welcome to the forum.

There is something known as conventional deterrence as well. For example, if the PAF loses 50 F-16's in battle, it cannot just press the nuclear button for this loss alone. Nukes means Mutually Assured Destruction, which the govt. has to consider as a price for using the nuclear option.

BTW I was seeing the interview of AAZ on Larry King and there he said that Pakistan would never use nuclear weapons first. Doesn't that conflict with the PA's policy?


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## ice_man

raveolution said:


> Bro,first of all get over the fact that Indian is obsessed with Pakistan. It is the other way around. India now looks to China as a rival,not necessarily an enemy.
> 
> And as for creating military imbalances, I think you should ask that to China. India uses about 2.5% of its GDP, Pakistan uses about 5% of its GDP and China uses 6% officially and upto 8% unofficially for defence allocation. If we really wanted a race, you would have seen 560 MKI's and 400 MRCA's.
> 
> And yes, lets stick to the topic. BTW no hesitation is saying that the F16's Blk 52's are really potent and amazing platforms.



thank you for derailing the thread!!!! but it is a blatant lie if india says PAKISTAN is not our enemy! all your forward deployement bases are close to pakistan everything you got is mostly pointed towards us even your media talks about us being a "threat" so please spare me the BS that china is our enemy! you are still equally obssesed with us as we are with you!


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## ice_man

raveolution said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> There is something known as conventional deterrence as well. For example, if the PAF loses 50 F-16's in battle, it cannot just press the nuclear button for this loss alone. Nukes means Mutually Assured Destruction, which the govt. has to consider as a price for using the nuclear option.
> 
> BTW I was seeing the interview of AAZ on Larry King and there he said that Pakistan would never use nuclear weapons first. Doesn't that conflict with the PA's policy?



ASIF ALI ZARDARI is NOT our elected president!!! we elected PPP out of sympathy for Benazir a BIG MISTAKE becuz we never dreamnt of him as our President! 

however, having said that Pakistanis are not crazy to go to nuclear war unless PUSHED too!!! BUT that doesn't mean we will use it first neither does it mean WE WON'T use it first!!! it will all come down to situation at hand at that stage! 

now stop derailing our thread please!!

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## unicorn148

india MMRCA is just to replace its old planes and not an arms race if india uses 5 &#37; of the gdp india would have been buying more than 500 mmrca and eveb us is offering f16 IN whcih is most advance version in f16 and is far too superior to block 50/52 which pakisthan will be getting


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## nightrider_saulat

PakShaheen79 said:


> Bro.. It will take some more time than that for Block -I Thunder to be inducted (i.e. 50). Till 2011 PAC will able to roll out 25/year. So may be we get all 50 inducted by end of 2011 or by early 2012 meanwhile PAF looking for avionics and radar for Block II.
> 
> FC-20, I agree, are not coming before 2014.



*45A/Bs + 18C/Ds + 150 BLOCK I&II=163
do you think this figure is matchable for our f-16s against mighty indian air force comprises of nearly 300 SU-30
and 120 of mig-29 and mirage 2000
and 120 of MIG-21 BISONS
and 200 of jaguar and mig-27
by 2015​*


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## zavis2003

nightrider_saulat said:


> *45A/Bs + 18C/Ds + 150 BLOCK I&II=163
> do you think this figure is matchable for our f-16s against mighty indian air force comprises of nearly 300 SU-30
> and 120 of mig-29 and mirage 2000
> and 120 of MIG-21 BISONS
> and 200 of jaguar and mig-27
> by 2015​*




no no no thi s wont happens in future 
by 2015 u wont see jaguars mig 27 and mig 23 as strike role dedicated ground role craft coz india is getting MRCA from US 126 in nos.

secondly what u anlysed about indian AF is wrong they would be more power full in 2015 then today but PAF would be diff in 2015 too
the JF 1&2 would be potent in the future as by upfgrades still very capabale in PGM a2G attacks and PAF would never have 163 planes always PAf try to maintains 400 plus fighters as we are big country too
and for get coffins oh sorry i means bisons MIGS21. they are so old that there frame are out dated in couple of kming years and spare part factory of Mig 21 bisons has get a contract of making frames for truck buses from scraped MIg21 through recycling


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## PakShaheen79

I wish PAF had press for SABR (Scalable Agile Beam Radar) which is an AESA radar for its new F-16s. I am really impressed by this peace of hardware. It is different from AGP-80 installed on UAE's Vipers.


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## Novice09

raveolution said:


> Bro,first of all get over the fact that Indian is obsessed with Pakistan. It is the other way around. India now looks to China as a rival,not necessarily an enemy.
> 
> And as for creating military imbalances, I think you should ask that to China. India uses about 2.5% of its GDP, Pakistan uses about 5% of its GDP and China uses 6% officially and upto 8% unofficially for defence allocation. If we really wanted a race, you would have seen 560 MKI's and 400 MRCA's.
> 
> And yes, lets stick to the topic. BTW no hesitation is saying that the F16's Blk 52's are really potent and amazing platforms.



Hi Bro!

Did I mention I my post that India in competing with Pakistan or trying to match their Armed forces (for that India have to degrade military capabilities)? 

Ok lets come back to F16..........

Its a proven Fighter Jet. I don't want to copy n paste something from WIKI or any other source to prove it. But  stuff comes with an *sign (terms and conditions apply). That's y i told to strengthen domestic defense industry. Pak should make their JF17s more lethal and India should do same with Tejas.

US is known for arm twisting when a country do something against their will.


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## PAFAce

raveolution said:


> Bro,first of all get over the fact that Indian is obsessed with Pakistan. It is the other way around. India now looks to China as a rival,not necessarily an enemy.


Classic Cold War games. After China, it will be the Russia, after that the US, and after even that, it will be some mythical power from another dimension, as long as there is even a remotely credible reason to develop weapons, we will do so. On the one hand, you say "China is our main rival now, not Pakistan", on the other hand, you toughen up your stance against China to instigate a response from them, and the snake feeds on itself.

Don't mean to pick on you specifically. It is the game the Indian defence analysts are playing, and it's fun to watch. The US and the Soviet Union did this during the Cold War, exaggerating and hyping the threat, that is. This is an indirect way of making sure the military gets what it wants when it wants, and if they don't get it, the people make the government pay. What is even more amusing, however, is when this same myth is used to reinforce the superiority complex over Pakistan, then you get gems like "Pakistan is obsessed with India, India is only trying to match China". Like I said, always fun to watch.

This is what you should say: "We develop weapons because we can and we want to, end of story". I won't like that, but I will respect it. Don't invent lies to justify your actions. Just man up.

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## raveolution

Novice09 said:


> Hi Bro!
> 
> Did I mention I my post that India in competing with Pakistan or trying to match their Armed forces (for that India have to degrade military capabilities)?
> 
> Ok lets come back to F16..........
> 
> Its a proven Fighter Jet. I don't want to copy n paste something from WIKI or any other source to prove it. But  stuff comes with an *sign (terms and conditions apply). That's y i told to strengthen domestic defense industry. Pak should make their JF17s more lethal and India should do same with Tejas.
> 
> US is known for arm twisting when a country do something against their will.



Hey bro... my post was in reply to Mzubair's post, not yours. You'll get the hang of it soon 

As for the F16, yes it is a combat proven and really potent aircraft.  There is absolutely no doubt about that. 

The problem would be when the MKI is upgraded and the MRCA would start coming in. Around 2012-13, we would have begin to have features such as AESA, Supercruise, etc as standard on our frontline aircraft. I don't think the PAF F16's would be further upgraded in the next 5-7 years. But the arrival of 36 J-10 and around 70 F-16 would form a decent deterrent.

The thing I was trying to address is that India is not catching up with Pakistan in an Arms race, it is the other way around. We are trying to match China, which we will never be able to do so with our current budget. Imagine if we spent 6-8% of our GDP on defence, the quality and quantity of firepower available from Western countries would be unimaginable.


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## raveolution

PAFAce said:


> Classic Cold War games. After China, it will be the Russia, after that the US, and after even that, it will be some mythical power from another dimension, as long as there is even a remotely credible reason to develop weapons, we will do so. On the one hand, you say "China is our main rival now, not Pakistan", on the other hand, you toughen up your stance against China to instigate a response from them, and the snake feeds on itself.
> 
> Don't mean to pick on you specifically. It is the game the Indian defence analysts are playing, and it's fun to watch. The US and the Soviet Union did this during the Cold War, exaggerating and hyping the threat, that is. This is an indirect way of making sure the military gets what it wants when it wants, and if they don't get it, the people make the government pay. What is even more amusing, however, is when this same myth is used to reinforce the superiority complex over Pakistan, then you get gems like "Pakistan is obsessed with India, India is only trying to match China". Like I said, always fun to watch.
> 
> This is what you should say: "We develop weapons because we can and we want to, end of story". I won't like that, but I will respect it. Don't invent lies to justify your actions. Just man up.



Cheers PAFAce... however much I am against war, I think insecurity and fear always prevail over common sense and sanity for the majority. The only people benefiting from this are the Arms manufacturers who are laughing their way to the bank.

And it's true. India is keen on matching China in most fields, even though we are not even close. India is getting slowly obsessed with China as you can see in the recent news, though most of it is over-hyped by the media. The only difference with Pakistan and China are that we have been enemies for decades and are left with a bitter taste for each other. With China, save for the border war in 1962, relations have improved and trade and economic ties especially have boomed.

Pakistan has a enemy on one front, unless you count Afghanistan. The only country that Pakistan is trying to match is India, as it really does not have to worry about anyone else. India on the other hand has to wary on both sides. 

Someone suggested that India considers Pakistan as its enemy no. 1. Well that will always be the case, unless relations with China degrade to the level that we share with Pakistan.

Anyways I think the both of us have derailed the thread enough for a couple of days. Lol

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## unicorn148

pakisthan may be getting 70 f 16 c/d but US is offering INDIA f16 IN which is even superior to the f 16 e/f.
Lockheed Martin has described the F-16IN as &#8220;the most advanced and capable F-16 ever.&#8221;


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## Mahrukh Muzafar

i didnt understand the whole discussion . China is enemy of pakistan and india both or only india ?India is trying to catch up with (pakistan,china) whom?who has the most powerful forces in three of these?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Yes go ahead take the F16 , we will take the russian planes -


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## Myth_buster_1

raveolution said:


> The problem would be when the MKI is upgraded and the MRCA would start coming in. Around 2012-13,


Hold on their indian. New MRCA from 2012? You indians are so low that you will say anything to satisfy your indian ego! for F sake the deal is not even done yet! The contract is not even signed yet! The production plant takes 2-3 years and like MKI the starting few years only few as 10-12 fighters will be produced annually and later on as the production line gets matured so will the numbers be increased. 

As for the MKI.. aything like Super cruise 400KM radar stealthy coat etc is not going to happen before 2025 because india can not simply phase out radars and other high tech stuff with in 10 years of service and replace it.
If you want to satisfy your ego then let me tell you... MKI will be a F-22 raptor killer with 400KM range AAM and not to forget the super human pilots who will be able to sustain 12Gs and of course out match PAF cr@py pilots.

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## unicorn148

Growler said:


> Hold on their indian. New MRCA from 2012? You indians are so low that you will say anything to satisfy your indian ego! for F sake the deal is not even done yet! The contract is not even signed yet! The production plant takes 2-3 years and like MKI the starting few years only few as 10-12 fighters will be produced annually and later on as the production line gets matured so will the numbers be increased.
> 
> As for the MKI.. aything like Super cruise 400KM radar stealthy coat etc is not going to happen before 2025 because india can not simply phase out radars and other high tech stuff with in 10 years of service and replace it.
> If you want to satisfy your ego then let me tell you... MKI will be a F-22 raptor killer with 400KM range AAM and not to forget the super human pilots who will be able to sustain 12Gs and of course out match PAF cr@py pilots.



the IAF is planiing to upgrade the su 30mki with the new radar offering by russia and added new features the new radar developed 
which russia is offering for joint development


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## Myth_buster_1

unicorn148 said:


> the IAF is planiing to upgrade the su 30mki with the new radar offering by russia and added new features the new radar developed
> which russia is offering for joint development



Indian troller!

Which part of my post indicates you that i was implying that those fancy upgrades wont be implemented on MKI? Its only possible later in 2025 will their be any MKI reciving these upgrades. for god sake MKI just entered in service and its totally impossible to phase out newly inducted systems within a decade or so. so if you want to cheat with yourself stay deluded that you are and satisfy your indian dirty ego then go and and believe MKI will receive these upgrades within 5-10 years. 

loser


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## unicorn148

mr growler really the su 30mki will be upgraded by 5-6 years mark my words russia is ready to share the aesa radar with india so its better u think before throwing words


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## RameeX Xaved

unicorn148 said:


> mr growler really the su 30mki will be upgraded by 5-6 years mark my words russia is ready to share the aesa radar with india so its better u think before throwing words



so why not upgrade MRCA within the first year of its service to F-35 standards  and the next year to F-22 standards  and the next year to super robotic pilots  gosh! almost all of the IAF fighters will be invisible to even naked eye by the year 2020


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## unicorn148

RameeX Xaved said:


> so why not upgrade MRCA within the first year of its service to F-35 standards  and the next year to F-22 standards  and the next year to super robotic pilots  gosh! almost all of the IAF fighters will be invisible to even naked eye by the year 2020



u too know that pakisthan is planning to upgrade its jf 17 radar with a france even jf 17 is brand new then why are they thinking to upgrade its radar


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## Myth_buster_1

unicorn148 said:


> u too know that pakisthan is planning to upgrade its jf 17 radar with a france even jf 17 is brand new then why are they thinking to upgrade its radar



I know you are very smart for our level but just to let you know.

first 50 batch will be entirely Chinese origin expect the russian engine.
next 50 batch will be of proposed French systems like MICA RC-400 radar, avionics, and other electronic warfare systems. 
PAF has officially acknowledged that JF-17 will be fitted with AESA radars and multiple companies have already showed their product for evaluations. IMO KLJ-10 radar will not be replaced anytime before 2025. 
Oh btw do you know Russia has also offered india this speical Raptor killer mode to india? and they will be implemented on every indian flying coffins turning them into flying raptor killers? India reportedly rejected this deal and decided to go on with isreali death star technology which will detect and destroy any fighter before it is even assembled.

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## raveolution

Growler said:


> Hold on their indian. New MRCA from 2012? You indians are so low that you will say anything to satisfy your indian ego! for F sake the deal is not even done yet! The contract is not even signed yet! The production plant takes 2-3 years and like MKI the starting few years only few as 10-12 fighters will be produced annually and later on as the production line gets matured so will the numbers be increased.
> 
> As for the MKI.. aything like Super cruise 400KM radar stealthy coat etc is not going to happen before 2025 because india can not simply phase out radars and other high tech stuff with in 10 years of service and replace it.
> If you want to satisfy your ego then let me tell you... MKI will be a F-22 raptor killer with 400KM range AAM and not to forget the super human pilots who will be able to sustain 12Gs and of course out match PAF cr@py pilots.



If you want an example of a low quality post, this is it. On your maniacal loud-mouthed egoistic trip, you forgot to open your eyes a little wider.

Quote:

"The problem would be when the MKI is upgraded and the MRCA would start coming in. Around 2012-13, we would *begin* to have features such as AESA, Supercruise, etc as standard on our frontline aircraft."

So you have a choice... 

1) Go back to Grade School and learn some English and Reference to Context

2) Go to your local optician and get your eyes checked or even to the psychiatric to have your brain checked. 

As far as the MRCA is concerned, go read the time-line on any link that you can find and figure it out.

And btw, this 'Indian' has a name. That's why nicknames are provided here if you want to address anyone with some manners.

*Mods please "take care" of this guy. He thinks he's sitting on a Deckchair in his garden and is the owner of the forum. Sorry to be so blunt about it. Bullying, Personal Attacks, No respect for another's Country/ Armed forces.*


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## unicorn148

MR growler similarly IAF is planning to upgrade its su 30 mki with the new aesa radar developed by russia which russia is ready to share the technology with india


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## Novice09

Come on guys, lets come back to PAF's F16


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## sonicboom

Deleted .....


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## nightrider_saulat

unicorn148 said:


> MR growler similarly IAF is planning to upgrade its su 30 mki with the new aesa radar developed by russia which russia is ready to share the technology with india



*not possible before 2020-25
watch some early episodes of future dogfights on history channel
you will for sure learn something from there​*


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## Arsalan

well i guess it will be better if we can come back to PAF F16!!!
i have been trying to be a silent member for the last three weeks but what is happening now forces me to request you guys to come back to the topic!

thankyou,

regards!

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## Arsalan

well i guess it will be better if we can come back to PAF F16!!!
i have been trying to be a silent member for the last three weeks but what is happening now forces me to request you guys to come back to the topic!

thankyou,

regards!


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## BlackenTheSky

guys plz can any one tell me that wat does these blocks means...like block 50\52...etccc.thanks


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## abbasniazi

Blocks signifies the standard of advancements in technology incorporated in a weapon system.

forexample, if a weapon is conceived with initial specification and is produced in numbers and after its performance a few improvements are made in it by incorporating advance technologies, then this will increase its performance dramatically and give that system new abilities.

this same weapon may be assigned another block number or name just for the sake of identification of the set of specifications it contains.

for example F16 Block 15 doesn't have in flight refueling whereas F16 Block 60 has, which will further the range of the later block.

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## BlackenTheSky

thanks for that info..


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## PakShaheen79

My question is;

Is PAF has any plans for followup order of AIM-120C5 and JDAMs? I do feel that current order is little lower than our requirements. PAF pilots will be using AMRAAM and JDAM in training, exercises etc. So we definitely would need more.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Actual missiles are not used in training on regular basis. There are practise rounds available.

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## fatman17

*what could have been!*

27 Oct 1976 
Iran orders 160 F-16s and takes an option on 140 more (Peace Zebra). The order was cancelled in 1979 with the fall of the Shah.


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## Patriot

140 F-16..200+ F-14's etc..lol was Iran thinking about fighting the Soviet Union.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

fatman17 said:


> *what could have been!*
> 
> 27 Oct 1976
> Iran orders 160 F-16s and takes an option on 140 more (Peace Zebra). The order was cancelled in 1979 with the fall of the Shah.



man.....that's only one thing.


US was going to sell Iran FA-18 Hornets, AND also give license/facility to them to manufacture them locally (like what Turkey does with F-16s now)

of course after 1979, a LOT changed!!


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## fatman17

Patriot said:


> 140 F-16..200+ F-14's etc..lol was Iran thinking about fighting the Soviet Union.



US$ 8 billion down the drain !!!


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> US$ 8 billion down the drain !!!



this is one point i never differ on!!!
totally agreee with your analysis....

regards!


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## SBD-3

dez said:


> thanks for that info..


you could ve done the same by just pressing the "thanks" tag


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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> US$ 8 billion down the drain !!!



there's no cost of freedom


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## Arsalan

hasnain0099 said:


> there's no cost of freedom



let me correct it bro,,
freedom do *cost* a lot, 
but yes, 
it is priceless!!

regards!


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## Comet

Are the new F-16 block 52 that Pakistan is getting, equipped with necessary stuff for mid air refueling and buddy to buddy refueling?


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## mean_bird

I don't know about buddy refuelling but mid flight refueling (by tankers) yes. PAF still needs to get the tankers though as the Il-78 cannot refuel F-16s (different systems not compatible).


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## unicorn148

mean_bird said:


> I don't know about buddy refuelling but mid flight refueling (by tankers) yes. PAF still needs to get the tankers though as the Il-78 cannot refuel F-16s (different systems not compatible).



pakistan doesnt have air refuelling for their f16 because IL 78 are based on russian versions and even the IL 78 of pakistan are on lease


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## Patriot

Oh Thanks Genius.Mean Bird did not know about it.Do read before replying.


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## PakShaheen79

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Actual missiles are not used in training on regular basis. There are practise rounds available.



Yeah MK I knew that... but certainly some amount of them will be used either way. Look at size of IAF... this is why i asked. Other than that, I think these missiles have also a life span even in storage though it must not be a problem with brand new missile but again we don't know if we would get from US stock pile or from production facility.


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## Arsalan

mean_bird said:


> I don't know about buddy refuelling but mid flight refueling (by tankers) yes. PAF still needs to get the tankers though as the Il-78 cannot refuel F-16s (different systems not compatible).



dear i dont exactly remember but there was a discussion about some probes that will enable them to be refueled by the ILss.. i dont exactly remember what that was about,, perhaps it was something about the mirages and have nothing to do with F16,,
can you kindly clear it if you have any info about???

regards!


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## MastanKhan

PakShaheen79 said:


> Yeah MK I knew that... but certainly some amount of them will be used either way. Look at size of IAF... this is why i asked. Other than that, I think these missiles have also a life span even in storage though it must not be a problem with brand new missile but again we don't know if we would get from US stock pile or from production facility.



Hi,

The missiles also get their mid life upgrades----ie---they are regularly checked.

Also we will get an equal number or more of Sd 10's as well---.


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## Arsalan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The missiles also get their mid life upgrades----ie---they are regularly checked.
> 
> Also we will get an equal number or more of Sd 10's as well---.



ew have a handfull of F16 to play with the AMRAAMs. infact the planes will be able to fire BVR once the are done with MLU ans STAR upgrades, a project we have not been hearing anyting about since a few months now. in this case 500 would be enough specially considering the FC20 and JF17 the future main stay of PAF!!

regards!


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## Wingman

mean_bird said:


> I don't know about buddy refuelling but mid flight refueling (by tankers) yes. PAF still needs to get the tankers though as the Il-78 cannot refuel F-16s (different systems not compatible).





umairp said:


> Are the new F-16 block 52 that Pakistan is getting, equipped with necessary stuff for mid air refueling and buddy to buddy refueling?



Buddy to Buddy refueling


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## TOPGUN

Mid air refuling for the f-16's will become a prob unless Paf tries for something else to put at use if the US wont sell us the tankers ! any other options?


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## Patriot

AirBus A301 TT.EADS offer boom refueling option too.

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## daxiang

Pakistan has heard the message, will revert to the United States to buy 77 F-16 fighter jets. Canada, "Han and" intelligence that the United States as the Chinese fighter planes to Pakistan out of the market, committed to initially provide 1.5 billion U.S. dollars military aid in Pakistan. And international media pointed out that the Russian ban on pre-Chinese aircraft will be equipped with Russian engines of export other countries. It seems the development of FC1 is bound to go through twists and turns. However, I think this is a trivial matter, the Americans and another great plot. The next step would be what? To do the following analysis
With regard to this matter, I think it needs from the United States, Pakistan, China in three aspects, three perspective:
: 1, the United States speed up the infiltration of Pakistan, to further control the Middle East, which is its strategic intentions. This is the United States wants to implement its "eastward extrusion of China, west squeeze Iran, North squeeze Russia, south to affect India's" strategic objective. A part of its global strategy. This trend and the U.S. strategy is not automatically stop, and is an irresistible can only be reconciled. This is China most in need of fee brains to deal with. 


2, China and Pakistan to resolve decades of friendship, and undermine China's strategic interests in Pakistan and decades of operation. U.S. military aid to Pakistan, it may gradually made to establish military bases in Pakistan and other issues. This was absolutely to stop the issues of principle. If the United States to establish military bases in Pakistan, then the direct threat "to Iran's oil through the Pakistani port of Gwadar, etc. transported overland to visit Pakistan-China" strategic concept, directly increase the threat to the oil base in Xinjiang, China-Kazakhstan oil pipeline, and even western China oil lifeline, direct containment China's air defense force deployment. And so on. Which further contributed to and strengthen "the United States attack the things that surround China's" military posture. 


3, the United States 15 billion dollars in military aid, delay, constraints and Pakistan to join the Shanghai Cooperation Organization to contain the pace, thereby preventing China, Russia led the development and strengthening the Shanghai Cooperation Organization to prevent possible "joint anti-US forces in the potential or potential international organization "development. 


4 would not hesitate to F16 fighter outside the diarrhea may be the cost of the technology to suppress China's fighter planes and airborne weapons export market. Pressure China in the international arms market share. Of course, I guess compared to the first three points, several multi-billion dollar arms market is still small. As for the F16 fighter planes and airborne weapons and technology, foreign diarrhea, the United States naturally afraid, because the U.S. already have a new generation of F22 fighter planes. 


5, affecting the Government of Pakistan to speed up "anti-terrorism" process. To further eliminate "Al Qaeda" threat to the United States. 


The second part, the purpose of receiving U.S. assistance in Pakistan, mainly as follows -- 


1, Pakistan is the F16, but to do the following purposes: the F16, as against India's high-end machine. Of course, Pakistan can not be, nor the economic strength of all the aircraft equipped with American-style. Pakistan needs the level of partner configuration. Namely: the United States and China aircraft and airborne weapons, Pakistan should be. Pakistan still will purchase Chinese FC1 Xiaolong and China's other models, as well as airborne weapons, as well as the Army, Navy and other arms, even if the number will decline. 


2 to F16 projects as well as the U.S. military aid as a bargaining counter, asked China to provide more and more advanced aircraft manufacturing technology, as well as other weapons technology, and other military support. At least to strengthen Pakistan's own, and with the development of China's strength up aircraft manufacturing industry. To achieve the manufacture of aircraft, part of the self-reliance. This is the 04 prototype appeared Xiaolong aircraft, DSI intake, and the use of large strake-wing causes such as better technology. Of course, the aircraft manufacturing industry in Pakistan can not be completely self-reliance, such as: China's aviation industry, has a heart attack, they do not the engine industry. 


3, by other possible facilities and assistance. China, Russia, Pakistan, to absorb the "Shanghai Cooperation Organization", then the need to pay more conditions, a higher price to Pakistan. 


Part III, China faces pressure and can take countermeasures -- 


I think that: Although the United States for the infiltration of Pakistan will not be completed overnight, rapidly effective, although the Sino-Pakistani strategic relationship will not be shaken overnight. But the United States will increase for the Pakistan military, political and other influence. Therefore, China is facing is: how to deal with the U.S. offensive in the Middle East and Pakistan? How to resolve the U.S. influence in Pakistan increased, and even his own use? 


In view of the above, China is faced with the following pressure to make responses: 


1, to accelerate the "Shanghai Cooperation Organization" development, absorbing and Pakistan to join the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, to develop and further development of strategic partnership with Pakistan. From this perspective, the development of the "Shanghai Cooperation Organization", the need for strategic thinking, strategic vision, as a strategy to proceed. Specific measures, I still can not think of the hope that high-level attention, we make plans. 


2, as a matter of principle, should take measures to put an end to Pakistan agreed to the U.S. to establish military bases in Pakistan and possibilities. At present this is possible. However, this issue can not be discussed. A direct impact on China's western security, which affect the basis for Sino-Pakistani cooperation. Need for a preventive measure. 


3, Xiaolong need to have a more excellent price-performance ratio. Xiaolong superior to a more cost-effective, in turn, F16 to contain Pakistan's procurement of the United States and other airborne weapons, the number of arms to reduce Pakistan's dependence on the United States. Xiaolong these requirements as soon as possible so that the word "future perfect" such as China, WS10 engines, other possible advanced technology, and so on. These are mainly depends on the CAC's efforts, as well as the Chinese government's permission. Require specialized sector-specific assessment. 


4, China should reflect on as soon as possible: whether the export of China's aircraft or missile exports, it should be more export finished products, semi-finished products, less export production technology and know-how, otherwise, it not foolish? Unfortunately, it has helped many countries have production lines of aircraft and missile production line. China needs to reflect on this issue. 


5, if not stop Pakistan to accept the U.S. military aid and the purchase of F16 fighter jets, then Pakistan must take place after the possibility of progressing F16C / D models of technology, in exchange for the Chinese, FC1 Xiaolong and F10 Raptors and other advanced technologies. Since Taiwan is equipped with the F16A / B and other models are also equipped with F16 fighter jets in Japan, therefore, China must get more F16 technology, and even Pakistan's F16 confrontation exercise, thus increasing to deal with Taiwan, Japan, F16 capabilities. And, in addition to F16 aircraft technologies, a comprehensive understanding of the U.S. aircraft-borne weapons performance. Including the possibility of fighting the United States with my air-missiles, air-to-ship missile parameters, and so on. 


6, the other, because the U.S. military aid Pakistan, China will inevitably need to avoid paying the price or loss of the following: (1) from Pakistan, Xiaolong orders will decline. However, this decline is not the biggest problem. With the United States, compared to the infiltration of Pakistan, this is not the biggest problem in China. The immediate decline in orders is not terrible; in the future models can be exported to raise the level of independence and raising of the export volume increased to compensate. (2) Xiaolong part of the technology will flow into the United States. However, the technology belonged to the middle part of the following outside the diarrhea. For China, though influential, but China Xiaolong used in performance of the Air Force can not be completely outside the diarrhea to the United States, China Air Force's "own model Xiaolong" technology, as opposed to the export model should be some reservations. How to win in the largest export market and maintain their own aircraft with the advanced nature of the contradictions between the models, and seek the best balance.

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## PakShaheen79

I don't see IFR probe on Thunders as yet, FC-20 is some years ago... Why PAF is getting IL-78 tankers so quickly if it cannot fuel F-16? Why PAF did not go for AirBus A301 TT prior to going for IL-78?


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## blain2

Pakistan's relations with China (from economic and more importantly from a security standpoint are very firm). The entire armed forces are tooled around the Chinese hardware and this will not change (especially for the Army which may go for select US systems, but will always keep the inventory predominantly Chinese due to assured support). Secondly, from a Pakistani defence establishment standpoint, Chinese technology is no longer of the type being offered to Pakistan in the 70s and 80s. The technology in many systems is easily at par with the Western systems.

Pakistan has a tough balancing act to maintain to make sure that both Chinese and the American relations can be managed in a cordial and friendly manner while at the same time ensuring the Pakistan will not be used by once against the other.

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## TOPGUN

Still wating to here options from members on mid air refuling for the f-16's ?


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## TOPGUN

Patriot said:


> AirBus A301 TT.EADS offer boom refueling option too.



True but has PAF even looked in to it? or other options i know the mid air refuling option for the f-16 's can't go un seen !!


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## Arsalan

TOPGUN said:


> True but has PAF even looked in to it? or other options i know the mid air refuling option for the f-16 's can't go un seen !!



i dont think so. as far as i understand PAF do not take the F16 to be there power punch anymmore and are looking at other options to fill in this role. the FC20 is an example. for this reason it may not be adviseable to spend millions more on buying a refueller operational with only a handfull of F16z!

regards!


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## Storm Force

Chinease military hardware is getting far closer to western/russian levels. 

For pakistan the only way to keep up current nos is to buy cheaper guranteed spare part chinease hardware. 

Its smart move by PAKISTAN but also the only realistic option. 

Theres no way with Pakistan current financial handicap that it could have acquired expensive western hardware in bulk. 

Only down side China will hold you by the short and curlies. If you fall foul of them you military can,t move they will be decimated. 

This is why some nations go diverse like your neighbour india.


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## Chaudharry

*Nice Infoooooo*


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## owais.usmani

*Another picture of PAF F-16D undergoing testing at NAS/JRB Forth Worth taken on 10/30/2009. * 

​

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## Beskar

HQ image of Pakistan's F-16 Block-52.

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## PakShaheen79




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## Abu Zolfiqar

PakShaheen79 said:


> I don't see IFR probe on Thunders as yet, FC-20 is some years ago... Why PAF is getting IL-78 tankers so quickly if it cannot fuel F-16? Why PAF did not go for AirBus A301 TT prior to going for IL-78?



Il-78 meet PAF requirements.

i believe indian opted for AirbusA330 mrtts, so it would kind of be a conflict of interest.


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## ice_man

we need refuellers inorder to increase our loitering time.....now with the F-16s it is more or less are main strike weapon or like they say "big guns" we will use it sparingly....and won't keep it up in the air unless really needed! reason being it is expensive and not many our coming our way! so we are not going to be needing refullers for it! 

that is my take on it...hence PAF is going for the IL78s to increase loitering time for the JFs and the Mirages....


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## owais.usmani

*A Pakistani Air Force F-16 on approach after a test flight on November 06, 2009 at Lockheed Martin's Fort Worth plant:*





*Just a question: Are the fuel tanks in this picture the 600 gallon version?*

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## rashid897

the addition of this F-16 would boost Pakistan Air Force capabilities.


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## rashid897

Pakistan Zindabad


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## Arsalan

ice_man said:


> we need refuellers inorder to increase our loitering time.....now with the F-16s it is more or less are main strike weapon or like they say "big guns" we will use it sparingly....and won't keep it up in the air unless really needed! reason being it is expensive and not many our coming our way! so we are not going to be needing refullers for it!
> 
> that is my take on it...hence PAF is going for the IL78s to increase loitering time for the JFs and the Mirages....



the refueler may well add some good but bro will this be wise to get two or three KC135 for a fleet of 50 odd F16 specially when 40 of them are old platforms?? i dont think so!! also keep in mind that PAF do not take the F16 as the front liner,, specially ones we are into some third blocks of JF17 and FC20 gets going!! i dont mean to say that F16 will be of no use but they wont be as important as they are at the moment!!
well this is only my point of view and you guys can differ!

regards!

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## sancho

Talking about refuelers, I still didn't see a pic of a PAF F16 block 52 with CFTs. I don't doubt that PAF wouldn't get them, but could there be something else in the pipline too?
The F16IN which is offered for MMRCA will be a special F16 version, mainly because it will have a refueling probe. Most pics of it shows the probe retracting out of the CFT like this:


My point is, I doubt that this will be a tech only available for IAF, if so many other F16 users could need it too. For PAF with new IL 78 it would be also a good new feature to avoid the purchase of other tankers. 
So what do you guys think, could your new block 52s get these too?


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## Quwa

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the refueler may well add some good but bro will this be wise to get two or three KC135 for a fleet of 50 odd F16 specially when 40 of them are old platforms?? i dont think so!! also keep in mind that PAF do not take the F16 as the front liner,, specially ones we are into some third blocks of JF17 and FC20 gets going!! i dont mean to say that F16 will be of no use but they wont be as important as they are at the moment!!
> well this is only my point of view and you guys can differ!
> 
> regards!


Given how PAF invested in raising the necessary infrastructure for the Block-52+, I wouldn't discount the possibility of additional F-16C/Ds. Not only will production in Lockheed Martin continue into 2011-2012, but there have been reports of USAF offering PAF used C/D-airframes. There is also the CCIP-upgrade package for older block C/Ds so that they can be upgraded to Block-52 standards - AESA will also be available for upgrades.

If relations with U.S. are stable, PAF will likely procure additional F-16s. At the minimum I see it executing the option for 18 more Block-52+, and acquiring ~2 squadrons of used F-16C/D from USAF. At the minimum, this would give PAF at least 100 F-16s, but I wouldn't count out additional new-built F-16s if possible. Clearly infrastructure and training is not a problem, so if the opportunity arises, PAF will take it. 

The F-16 is an excellent and mature multirole fighter, and the PAF will certainly want to make the absolute most of it...

As for an in-flight refueling aircraft. I'm not sure if KC-135 is being pursued as heavily as the A-310 MRTT. The MRTT can work with both refueling methods - boom and hose+drogue - and can undertake additional missions. There may even be a longer-term benefit of acquiring the A330 MRTT if funds allow.

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## Arsalan

i agre mark that the F16 is still an excellent platfor and also that the infrastructure and training for thme is not a problem for PAF but bro what do we have to say about the reliability of relation with US. i think this is the only reason why PAF might bail out of US military procurements!!

regards!

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## Stealth

We need more F16s with (fast delivery and fast parts supply). Any one know about Pakistan is going for KC 135 in future ? because we really need KC135 for A2A refueling. IL 78 only refuel Chines and other hardware F16 need KC 135 any source related PAF F16 refueling ?


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## Quwa

arsalanaslam123 said:


> i agre mark that the F16 is still an excellent platfor and also that the infrastructure and training for thme is not a problem for PAF but bro what do we have to say about the reliability of relation with US. i think this is the only reason why PAF might bail out of US military procurements!!
> 
> regards!


As Pakistan is a MNNA, it has access to acquiring excess defence articles (EDA) such as used F-16A/B & C/D airframes for use as spare-parts. As they are cheap or even free, the PAF can acquire enough of them from the U.S. to keep its F-16s active for a fairly long time. 

Remember, we're talking about *specific* U.S. weapon-systems such as the F-16s, C-130s, Bell-412EPs, AH-1S/F Cobras, Chinook, Apache etc. Despite being American, these systems are widely used globally, and supported by an extensive manufacturing & maintenance support network around the world. Compared to very expensive European systems operated by very few countries, the above American weapons are (1) cheap, (2) widely operated & available and (3) very effective/potent. 

Using this rationale, I'd say that the AH-64 Apache would be a better purchase for PA than the European Tiger. The AH-64 is widely operated, even by regional neighbours such as KSA, UAE, etc, and is a tried & capable system. There are many used Apaches available, and can be upgraded to Longbow-D standards - just look at the U.S. offer to South Korea. PA can acquire 2~3 squadrons of AH-64, and acquire higher numbers of dead airframes for spare-parts...in case of sanctions. The same applies to CH-64 Chinook.

IMHO...the Pakistan should continue acquiring American weapon-systems based on the above rationale. However, it should also initiate parallel programmes for the longer-term. Obviously this requires funds, but IMO best serves the bang for the buck...


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## Ahassan

*and yes we r going for kc-135 or the KC-10 Extender
actualy the old ones....talks r underway!*


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## Quwa

airbus said:


> *and yes we r going for kc-135 or the KC-10 Extender
> actualy the old ones....talks r underway!*


No doubt KC-135 and KC-10 are options, but I still think PAF is inclined towards the A-310 MRTT. The MRTT-series can take up both boom and hose + drogue forms of refueling, allowing F-16, JF-17 and FC-20 to refuel. In addition, the MRTT can also perform medical evacuation, troop & cargo transport, etc. However, EADS is pushing the A-330 MRTT to the PAF - which is an expensive system. On the other hand, the long-term and quality benefit is clearly there.

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## ejaz007

A link to the F-16 ceremony on the face book:

Defense Security Cooperation Agency&#039;s Photos - Pakistan F-16 Inauguration | Facebook


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## MastanKhan

Mark Sien said:


> No doubt KC-135 and KC-10 are options, but I still think PAF is inclined towards the A-310 MRTT. The MRTT-series can take up both boom and hose + drogue forms of refueling, allowing F-16, JF-17 and FC-20 to refuel. In addition, the MRTT can also perform medical evacuation, troop & cargo transport, etc. However, EADS is pushing the A-330 MRTT to the PAF - which is an expensive system. On the other hand, the long-term and quality benefit is clearly there.





Hi,

Awhile ago, here in the u s---the airbus won the acknowledgement by the millitary for being the refueller and the rest of the stuff---and boeing lost---but then they got the politicians invovled and cancelled the purchase--( I can be correted on that )----the u s millitarty liked the multiple applications of the airbus---and preffered it over the boeing.


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## TOPGUN

I still think that PAF won't forget our f-16's for mid air refueling won't go unseen its just a matter of time something hits the pipeline!! i just wonder wat..


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## ice_man

i don't understand one thing....for 3 squadrons that we will use as our main "strike force" we will actually go buy a tanker! 

what i believe is that the F-16s would carry out CAPs only in a war time situation...that would mean that in peace time they will fly regular sorties.....

i don't understand a money hungry airforce actually spending millions in getting a tanker! its not feasible IMO i think CFTs are the thing we should stick to and instead of spending millions on tankers spend it on acquiring other items!


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## SBD-3

TOPGUN said:


> I still think that PAF won't forget our f-16's for mid air refueling won't go unseen its just a matter of time something hits the pipeline!! i just wonder wat..



I think we should now build on our "own strength" I know China is not at par with US but it offers something that US would never offer.....ToT..... We can have occasional US articles for understanding but now....next target should be JF-Bl 2 and FC-20 manufacturing. We have good 18 Falcons to study and improve our wings.......Its about time we make our own flight...............sky is the limit
zindabad 
 painda baad


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## Myth_buster_1

ice_man said:


> i don't understand one thing....for 3 squadrons that we will use as our main "strike force" we will actually go buy a tanker!
> 
> what i believe is that the F-16s would carry out CAPs only in a war time situation...that would mean that in peace time they will fly regular sorties.....
> 
> i don't understand a money hungry airforce actually spending millions in getting a tanker! its not feasible IMO i think CFTs are the thing we should stick to and instead of spending millions on tankers spend it on acquiring other items!



refueling tanker means.
- PAF Fighters can quickly reach their destination more effectively without having to worry too much about fuel.
- without air refueling means the plane has to land to air base and waist crucial 30 mins or so to just refueling the plane which is prone to enemy attack.
- with the advantage of refuellers PAF fighters can go back and forth from north pakistan to east without landing and if necessary conduct AShW mission.


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## ice_man

Growler said:


> refueling tanker means.
> - PAF Fighters can quickly reach their destination more effectively without having to worry too much about fuel.
> - without air refueling means the plane has to land to air base and waist crucial 30 mins or so to just refueling the plane which is prone to enemy attack.
> - with the advantage of refuellers PAF fighters can go back and forth from north pakistan to east without landing and if necessary conduct AShW mission.



your point is valid however like i said we don't want to keep our F-16s up in the air unless absolutely necessary we need to use them sparingly! JF-17 will be our main work horse! besides F-16 Blk 52s range is 360 miles. Maximum ferry range 2450 miles with maximum external fuel (excluding 600gal. tanks or CFT's) .

that means we have enough fue to go to pathankot halwara & come back!!! and if i am not mistaken even a bombing mission over indian punjab is achievable....

so yes even though a refueller is useful! we can live without it! & spend money on acquring HAWKEYE 2D on our Orion platfroms for the naval air wing!


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## hj786

ice_man said:


> what i believe is that the F-16s would carry out CAPs only in a war time situation...


Here is how many air-to-air missiles the PAF has ordered for the F-16s:
- 500 AIM-120C5 AMRAAM
- 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder 
Total = *700* missiles.

Here is how many air-to-ground weapons have been ordered:
- *800* MK-82 500 lb General Purpose (GP), MK-84 2,000 lb GP bombs;
- *700* BLU-109 2000 lb bunker-buster bombs with FMU-143 Fuse
- *500* Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits;
- *1600* Enhanced-GBU-12/24 GBUs;

I don't think large numbers of satellite-guided, laser-guided and bunker-busting bombs would be useful for "combat air patrols".


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## ice_man

hj786 said:


> Here is how many air-to-air missiles the PAF has ordered for the F-16s:
> - 500 AIM-120C5 AMRAAM
> - 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder
> Total = *700* missiles.
> 
> Here is how many air-to-ground weapons have been ordered:
> - *800* MK-82 500 lb General Purpose (GP), MK-84 2,000 lb GP bombs;
> - *700* BLU-109 2000 lb bunker-buster bombs with FMU-143 Fuse
> - *500* Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits;
> - *1600* Enhanced-GBU-12/24 GBUs;
> 
> I don't think large numbers of satellite-guided, laser-guided and bunker-busting bombs would be useful for "combat air patrols".



thanks i know that.... what i meant is that instead of going for tankers we can spend on other systems NOT RELATED TO F-16s!! things such as HAWK EYE systems for our Orion fleet...i didnot mean lets spend on getting more armament for F-16 CAPs i don't know what made you interpret it that way....thanx


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## Myth_buster_1

ice_man said:


> thanks i know that.... what i meant is that instead of going for tankers we can spend on other systems NOT RELATED TO F-16s!! things such as HAWK EYE systems for our Orion fleet...i didnot mean lets spend on getting more armament for F-16 CAPs i don't know what made you interpret it that way....thanx



What you are suggesting is not even beneficiary for PAF at all because Hawkeye is a Naval platform and will be operated by PN and PAF is already inducting ZDK-03 and Erieye systems. 
Btw F-16 role is not only limited to CAP their is alot more then that and with the addition of air refuellers it will massively increase loitering time in air giving F-16s advantage to operate beyond its limited range.


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## Beskar

*HQ Image of PAF's BLK-52 F-16 undergoing trials*







That Sniper-Pod's quite a beauty!

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## Windjammer

Guys, yous seems to have missed on creme de la creme,
The pilot in front seat is supporting a JHMCS (Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System)!

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## Wingman

ice_man said:


> your point is valid however like i said we don't want to keep our F-16s up in the air unless absolutely necessary we need to use them sparingly! JF-17 will be our main work horse! besides F-16 Blk 52s range is 360 miles. Maximum ferry range 2450 miles with maximum external fuel (excluding 600gal. tanks or CFT's) .
> 
> that means we have enough fue to go to pathankot halwara & come back!!! and if i am not mistaken even a bombing mission over indian punjab is achievable....
> 
> so yes even though a refueller is useful! we can live without it! & spend money on acquring HAWKEYE 2D on our Orion platfroms for the naval air wing!



It is heard that 5 F16s Block 52 are coming to Pakistan in december 2009 and will be based at Jacobabad base...is it true?


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## Imran Khan

i think so because if you look from satlite shahbaz air base is under heavy construction from last three years.also PIA weekly flight suspended to shahbaz air base.


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## owais.usmani



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## owais.usmani




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## nightrider_saulat

*these 18 new vipers are nothing less than a death warrant for the indian sukhois*

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## MAB

nightrider_saulat said:


> *these 18 new vipers are nothing less than a death warrant for the indian sukhois*



I wouldn't go as far to say that these 18 vipers can kill the some 100 sukhoi. The viper is a great fighter but the sukhoi is a fighter with lots of amazing capabilities it self. Also the main fighter which is supposed to counter the sukhoi is the J-10.


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## anwarma

I have a question?

How are PAF F-16 A/B and later C/D will refuel in mid-air from IL-78 tankers. The reason I ask this is because Like all American jets, F-16 uses the boom to refuel instead of the pods. 

Can the IL-78B modified or F-16's for pod refueling.

Thanks!


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## BATMAN

dreamer said:


> It is heard that 5 F16s Block 52 are coming to Pakistan in december 2009



Seeing is believing 
Untill than.......fingers are crossed.


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## BATMAN

owais.usmani said:


>



This color scheme is for Balauchistan.


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## BlackenTheSky

One question arising in my mind is that..what we will do when it will be the time to say F16 goodbye...?i mean in smthng 2030 or any other year we will be retiring them..so then wat??should we then go for F35..?becz most of countries with F 16 are planning to replace F35 with their F16 in future..


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## TOPGUN

dez said:


> One question arising in my mind is that..what we will do when it will be the time to say F16 goodbye...?i mean in smthng 2030 or any other year we will be retiring them..so then wat??should we then go for F35..?becz most of countries with F 16 are planning to replace F35 with their F16 in future..



Boss alot of answers are yet to be answerd for the present time and for the near future ... 2030 is out of the question lets see wat goes on and wat we will have the f-16's will be with us for some time to come.


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## Imran Khan

in 2030 we have made in pakistan 5th gen jf-23 .lol


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## Arsalan

imran khan said:


> in 2030 we have made in pakistan 5th gen jf-23 .lol



let us say Inshallah!!

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## Windjammer

BATMAN said:


> This color scheme is for Balauchistan.



My understanding is that the new Vipers will be based in Jacobabad which is in Sindh.


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## niaz

I have just been to Dubai 2009 Airshow courtesy of SHELL who invited me to their hospitality suite. I only managed to watch part of the air show as I needed to get out before the evening rush hour. However I had a chance to observe the following among others:

1.	Rafael
2.	MB346
3.	Super Mashaak
4.	L-15
5.	PC-21
6.	F-22
7.	F-16 Block 60 
8.	Euro copter Tiger Gunship


I was really impressed by the Chinese L-15 supersonic trainer, F-22 Raptor, F-16 block 60 and Tiger gunship. I know that F-16 is not a popular aircraft in this forum for whatever reason. IMO in the Block-60 guise F-16 is still more than a match for any aircraft except F-22

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## Wingman

Windjammer said:


> My understanding is that the new Vipers will be based in Jacobabad which is in Sindh.



You are 100% correct, new vipers will be based in Jacobabad.


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## was




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## SBD-3

Congress technically has 30 days to veto the $5.1bn arms deal with Islamabad but it has never exercised that power on a major arms sale yet.

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:

Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s - $3 billion

The package for Pakistan's new F-16s also includes:

* 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft with either the F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs) and APG-68(V)9 radars;
* 7 spare F100-PW-229 IPE or F110-GE-129 IPE engines;
* 7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets;
* 36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
* 36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II;
* 36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircraft's sides to give them extra range;
* 36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; DID has covered the tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems;
* 36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems;
* 36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
* 36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM;
* 1 Unit Level Trainer;


Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability.

The principal contractors will be:

* Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, TX;
* Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control, Dallas, TX;
* BAE Advanced Systems Greenlawn, NY;
* Boeing Corporation Seattle, WA;
* Boeing Integrated Defense Systems: St Louis, MO; Long Beach, CA; San Diego, CA;
* Raytheon Company: Lexington, MA; Goleta, CA;
* Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, AZ;
* Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX;
* Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD;
* United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT; or
* General Electric Aircraft Engines in Cincinnati, OH. There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support and program management of the aircraft.


Item 2: Weapons for F-16C/D Block 50/52 Aircraft - $650 Million

# The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);
# 12 AMRAAM training missiles
# these have seeker warheads, but lack engines;
# 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X;
# 240 LAU-129/A Launchers
# these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles;
# 500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits;
# 1600 Enhanced-GBU-12/24 GBUs;
# 800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs;
# 700 BLU-109 2000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse; and,
# Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares, and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications, and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability will also be provided.

The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $650 million.

The principal contractors will be:

* BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY;
* Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX;
* Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX;
* Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX; and,
* Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD. There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft.


Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits - $1.3 billion

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:

* APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar;
* Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
* AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
* AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
* Have Quick I/II Radios;
* Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT);
* SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
* Reconnaissance pod capability;
* Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (for training);


MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits;

* 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
* 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
* 1 Unit Level Trainer;
* 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.


Also included are radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support.

The estimated cost is $1.3 billion.

According to the DSCA, Pakistan intends to purchase the MLU Program equipment "to enhance survivability, communications connectivity, and extend the useful life of its F-16A/B fighter aircraft. The modifications and upgrades in this proposed sale will permit Pakistan's F-16A/B squadron to operate safely and enhance Pakistan's conventional deterrent capability. Pakistan's air fleet can readily use these updates to enhance and extend the life of its aircraft."

The principal contractors will be:

* BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY;
* Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX;
* Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX;
* Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX; and,
* Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD.



Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR - $151 Million

The third contract involves Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million.

More specifically, the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of:

* 14 F100-PW-220E engines;
* 14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits;
* De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft;
* Support equipment;
* Software development/integration;
* Modification kits;
* Spares, and repair parts;
* Flight test instrumentation;
* Publications and technical documentation;
* Personnel training and training equipment;
* U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program.


The principal contractors will be:

* Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX; and,
* United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT.



Potential Controversies

The DSCA has said that "Release of this system would not significantly reduce India's quantitative or qualitative military advantage". India disagrees and military experts in Delhi will likely note that the same equipment (GPS, targeting pods, bunker-busters) that could potentially find uses against al-Qaeda terrorists in Pakistan's "lawless frontier" could also be used in precision strikes on India's military facilities in the event of war.

The DSCA counters that release of the F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft to Pakistan "will neither affect the regional balance of power nor introduce a new technology as this level of capability or higher already exists in other countries in the region". India does operate more advanced SU-30MKI aircraft with R-77 "AMRAAMski" missiles, advanced avionics, et. al.; these are superior in range, armament, and maneuverability to Pakistan's F-16s and will remain so. Meanwhile, India's $7-10 billion MRCA competition is certain to introduce 125-200 aircraft that are certain to be more advanced than the F-16 Block 50/52.

The U.S. DSCA adds in its submission to Congress that "The modification of the engines and Falcon UP/STAR structural updates will provide capable F-16s that can be used for close air support in ongoing operations contributing to the GWOT." The DSCA also cites the June 2004 designation of Pakistan as a Major Non-North Atlantic Treaty Organization Ally in its submission. The British commander of NATO's ISAF force in Southern Afghanistan sees Pakistan's role in a rather different light, however; he recently noted that al-Qaeda in Afghanistan is still run out of Pakistan (specifically Quetta), with Pakistani knowledge and even support from Islamist elements in its security apparatus. Ah, the dynamics of counter-insurgency in tribal societies. Pakistan angrily denies this, of course.

India's objections to this sale have been muted thus far, and phrased carefully to emphasize their effect on India-Pakistan ties rather than India-U.S. ties. Meanwhile, President Bush's personal diplomacy approach has fostered a strong relationship with Gen. Musharraf that is inclined to view such requests favourably as part of the U.S.A.'s 3-corner balancing act in the region. Barring unusual circumstances, therefore, it's reasonable to expect this sale to go through with little more than a concerned speech or two in Congress.

Courtesy of Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA)

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## truepakistani17

thanks a lot sir je, it really wa a real informative post. although all these points have been discussed seprately but getting them in one single post is really helpfull.
can you please provide us with the source of this repost. also it is mentioned in
*item 4*:
* De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft;*
does it means that we are wisely going to modify our fleet of 42 old planes and get out of them 26 planes with enhanced performance.
also sir it states that PAF wil be getting 14 STAR upgrades kits and 14 engines for this upgrade so what about rest of the planes??

looking forward to your reply or if any other senior can kindly clarify.
thanks!


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## SBD-3

truepakistani17 said:


> thanks a lot sir je, it really wa a real informative post. although all these points have been discussed seprately but getting them in one single post is really helpfull.
> can you please provide us with the source of this repost. also it is mentioned in
> *item 4*:
> * De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft;*
> does it means that we are wisely going to modify our fleet of 42 old planes and get out of them 26 planes with enhanced performance.
> also sir it states that PAF wil be getting 14 STAR upgrades kits and 14 engines for this upgrade so what about rest of the planes??
> 
> looking forward to your reply or if any other senior can kindly clarify.
> thanks!



its from www.f-16.net


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## TOPGUN

Where did the # 36 f-16's come from? i thought we are buying 18 with a option of 18 more! 18x2= 36 as we have heard 18 are being puchased.

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## owais.usmani

*Used USAF F-16s provide cheap multirole option​*
ANALYSIS

Date Posted: 21-Jul-2009

Jane's Defence Weekly

Used USAF F-16s provide cheap multirole option

Older F-16 fighters slated for retirement by the USAF offer a desirable solution to cash-strapped governments and armed forces, as Jim Dorschner reports

Recently announced plans by the US Air Force (USAF) to retire older F-16 Fighting Falcon multirole fighter aircraft will prove advantageous for several lower-tier air forces with long-standing requirements that are otherwise unlikely to be addressed in the face of today's tough economic conditions.

The Combat Air Forces restructuring plan unveiled in early May by USAF Secretary Michael Donley calls for the retirement of 134 mostly Block 25 F-16s as part of a comprehensive plan to save some USD3.5 billion over the next five fiscal years. This money can then be redirected towards reducing current capability gaps - by expanding MQ-1 Predator and MQ-9 Reaper unmanned aerial vehicle capability and building the MC-12 Project Liberty manned intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance platform, for example.

*Although more than 20 years old, many of the F-16C/Ds identified for retirement have plenty of life left in them, particularly if overhauled with modern sensors, communications and weapons. Countries destined to receive these 'new' fighters under generous terms from the US would need to be reliable allies. Potential recipients include Bulgaria, Colombia, Croatia, Indonesia, Iraq, Mexico, Pakistan, the Philippines, Romania and Tunisia.*

Even before these latest retirements were announced, Romania and Bulgaria had already received offers of second-hand F-16s. The US offered Bulgaria eight refurbished Block 25 F-16C/Ds in December 2008 to meet a long-deferred fighter replacement requirement. In the case of Romania, the US Defense Security Co-operation Agency (DSCA) notified Congress in May 2008 of a proposed sale of 24 new F-16C/D Block 50/52 and 24 refurbished and upgraded F-16C/D Block 25 aircraft in a package worth some USD4.5 billion.

However, with effects from the economic downturn steadily eroding Romanian defence spending prospects, eliminating the new-build Block 50s in favour of additional older jets may be the only way the country can achieve its stated target of 48 'new' multirole fighters. Even then, Romania may only be able to afford a total of 24 refurbished and upgraded Block 25s plus a smaller number of unaltered Block 25 airframes for training. Romania's current force of marginally effective MiG-21 Lancers is scheduled for withdrawal from service beginning in 2011: a date that cannot realistically be postponed.

For both these countries, used F-16s would serve as an interim capability bridge until economic conditions improve sufficiently to permit the purchase of new fighters. In recent years both were targets of sales campaigns that variously featured the Saab Gripen, Dassault Rafael, Eurofighter Typhoon, Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet and of course new Lockheed Martin F-16s.

Since neither is now likely to be able to afford such massive new defence expenditure, used Falcons may be the only viable option, although the Swedish Air Force is also likely to retire numbers of its older JAS 39A/B Gripens in the near future.

*Based on the package for Romania, retired USAF F-16s are likely to be offered at little or no purchase cost, but with the buyer picking up the tab for overhauls, training, delivery, system upgrades and the purchase of new systems such as radars and targeting pods, as well as weapons such as missiles and precision-guided munitions (PGMs).* Depending on the extent of chosen upgrades, this could deliver highly capable multirole fighters with a service life of at least 10 years at a fraction of the cost of new models. There would also be a substantial price tag for support infrastructure such as shelters, workshops and stores.

After the successful integration of JAS 39C/Ds into the air forces of Hungary and the Czech Republic earlier this decade, Croatia was widely expected to select the Gripen this year in a competition valued at approximately USD844 million for 12 new fighters to replace ageing MiG-21s. However, this was cancelled in March in the face of national economic pressures. Thus, any offer of used F-16s from the US with generous terms is likely to be well received.

Elsewhere, Iraq is exploring the purchase of a number of new F-16s, but in light of falling oil revenues, could find upgraded older aircraft attractive and more rapidly obtainable. They would be valuable as advanced trainers for pilots transferring to new F-16s and, given Iraqi operational requirements and regional threats, could still perform combat missions as required.

*Similarly, Pakistan needs upgraded older F-16C/Ds to replace or supplement even older A/B models. These would serve as a bridge to delivery of new-build Falcons and new fighters under development in co-operation with China.* Tunisia is another potential recipient, with a pressing need to replace 13 elderly F-5s but little cash to draw on.

In Latin America, Mexico has a long-standing requirement to replace a declining fleet of 1970s-vintage F-5s with newer, more capable fighters. While these would primarily perform air defence and air policing missions, including the interception of drug-smuggling aircraft, upgraded F-16s would provide the Mexican Air Force with its first multirole precision attack capability. Upgraded F-16 Block 25s would undoubtedly be attractive to Colombia as well and would provide far greater capability than the current plan to upgrade existing IAI Kfirs. Any F-16 deal with Colombia faces intense scrutiny in the US Congress and would surely ignite regional concerns, particularly in neighbouring Venezuela.

The Philippines is perhaps the country in most need of US assistance with rebuilding its more or less defunct fighter capability. Without substantial US help the Philippines is highly unlikely to ever be able to redress the situation, leaving this vast country in a strategic corner of Asia without a viable air defence or air policing capability, let alone the ability to conduct precision air strikes. Introduction of a small force of upgraded F-16s would immediately improve overall security.

In February 2008,US Defense Secretary Robert Gates announced an offer of six new-build F-16 Block 50/52 Fighting Falcons for delivery to Indonesia from 2010 as part of a package expected to include the overhaul and upgrade of the country's existing F-16A/Bs. Instead, Indonesia opted for the phased introduction of a small force of Su-27 and Su-30 fighters from Russia at a cost of around USD550 million. Nonetheless, replacing the F-16A/Bs with multirole, upgraded Block 25s could be an attractive option.

The F-16C/D Block 25 variants due for retirement were introduced into USAF service from 1984 and a total of 209 were delivered. They were the first F-16s with all-weather, beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile capability and featured the improved AN/APG-68 radar. The fleet was later upgraded to the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220E engine and gained a multirole capability. They are currently flown exclusively by the US Air National Guard and within the active duty Air Education and Training Command.

Jim Dorschner is a JDW Correspondent, based in Washington, DC




Used USAF F-16s provide cheap multirole option


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## SBD-3

TOPGUN said:


> Where did the # 36 f-16's come from? i thought we are buying 18 with a option of 18 more! 18x2= 36 as we have heard 18 are being puchased.



The Government of Pakistan has requested a *possible* sale of..........................


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## PAFAce

niaz said:


> I have just been to Dubai 2009 Airshow courtesy of SHELL who invited me to their hospitality suite. I only managed to watch part of the air show as I needed to get out before the evening rush hour. However I had a chance to observe the following among others:
> 
> 1.	Rafael
> 2.	MB346
> 3.	Super Mashaak
> 4.	L-15
> 5.	PC-21
> 6.	F-22
> 7.	F-16 Block 60
> 8.	Euro copter Tiger Gunship
> 
> 
> I was really impressed by the Chinese L-15 supersonic trainer, F-22 Raptor, F-16 block 60 and Tiger gunship. I know that F-16 is not a popular aircraft in this forum for whatever reason. IMO in the Block-60 guise F-16 is still more than a match for any aircraft except F-22


I know what you mean. At the Canadian International Air Show this year, I was able to witness flights of an F-16 Block 52, F/A-18 Super Hornets (Blue Angels), CF-18 Hornet and the F-22 Raptor. I was just in awe over the Raptor, the things it could do were amazing. At one point, it was moving horizontally across the sky with its nose at almost a 45 degrees angle above horizontal, using only its horizontal stabilizers and TVC. However, other than the F-22, the F-16 was by far the most impressive aircraft. It was dancing in the air, it somehow "felt" lighter than the F-18s. The F-86 solo performance was also quite cool, but not in the same league.

That said, the best performance overall was still delivered by the Blue Angels, hands down. They were the stars of the show. Canadian Snow Angels in their T-33s were bested on home turf.


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## Taha Samad

hasnain0099 said:


> Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR - $151 Million
> 
> The third contract involves Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million.
> 
> More specifically, the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of:
> 
> * * 14 F100-PW-220E engines;
> * 14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits;*
> ** De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft;*
> * Support equipment;
> * Software development/integration;
> * Modification kits;
> * Spares, and repair parts;
> * Flight test instrumentation;
> * Publications and technical documentation;
> * Personnel training and training equipment;
> * U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program.



Firstly is the following information correct???

PAF presently operate two types of F-16's

1) F-16 Blk 15 using f-100-200 engine.(40 delivered, 31 remaining)

2)F-16 Blk 15 OCU using f-100-220 engine (Sanctioned initially delivered post 9/11)

if so please answer the following questions:

1) why are we buying only 14 f-100-220 engines what about engines of remaing 31-14=17 aircrafts.

2) why are only 14 aircrafts undergoing falcon UP/STAR upgrade.
Has it something to do with the fact that F-16 delievered in 80's under went some sort of structural upgrade with help of Egypt.

3) *"De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft"*.What does this statement mean?

regards,
taha


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## TOPGUN

hasnain0099 said:


> The Government of Pakistan has requested a *possible* sale of..........................



Yes my brother current sale is 18 f-16's possibale sale in the future is 18 more hence, PAF buying 18 f-16's with option on 18 more which if 18+18 bought = 36 i know this i was making a point which is the fact anyone check we at this time are only buying 18 with the option of 18 in the future if PAF wants to purchase the.


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## wangrong




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## wangrong



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## BATMAN

^^What is with F/A-18?


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## BlackenTheSky

plz clearify me..if one pilot can do everything wat we want him to.in war.then wat is the use of two seater aircraft......?


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## Kompromat

dez said:


> plz clearify me..if one pilot can do everything wat we want him to.in war.then wat is the use of two seater aircraft......?



*Yes as they say its not only the machine which flies but its the man in the Cockpit too , I have no Doubt to say that PAF deploys the VERY BEST pilots in whole Asia .

Twin seater jet is used for Combat training , means an instructor and the Trainee pilot , it is also used in Combat*

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## TaimiKhan

dez said:


> plz clearify me..if one pilot can do everything wat we want him to.in war.then wat is the use of two seater aircraft......?



Tandem seat aircraft are specially useful in Ground Attack roles, precision guided weapon delivery in nowadays. The pilot can fly the aircraft, while the WSO can do the weapons delivery job. Other roles are used also in tandem seat aircraft.

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## DaRk WaVe



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## aakalim

What chances are there of Pakistan opting for another 18 of these aircrafts as per the contract.

In my opinion, if the conditions allow, than Pakistan should go for more latest f-16 fron USA.


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## Arsalan

F16 is un doubtly a really good platform specially for PAF but there is no one to assure us that we will get them deleivered in time. our past experience with US stops us from going for more F16 whereas the fighter characteristics push us to get them. so now it is a matter of our foreign policy, we we feel that times have changed and US will no more betray us then F16 is a potential buy. i guess it is as simple as this....
personally i am not in favour of going for more F16z, infact i am even against buying any military hardware from US as the study of previous deals with US are enough to teach me the lesson. i dont think the reliability of Pak-US relations need another check...

regards!

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## Stealth



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## BlackenTheSky

Stealth said:


>



HEY this pic is from gulf war in kuwait..right..?


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## Luftwaffe

seems RedFlag exercises but terrain is like gulf so hmm.


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## Stealth

dez said:


> HEY this pic is from gulf war in kuwait..right..?



Yes this picture belongs to Kuwait WAR and in this WAR i was in Kuwait  when IRAQ attack on Kuwait....


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## Wingman

taimikhan said:


> Tandem seat aircraft are specially useful in Ground Attack roles, precision guided weapon delivery in nowadays. The pilot can fly the aircraft, while the WSO can do the weapons delivery job. Other roles are used also in tandem seat aircraft.



For DEZ....WSO is weapon system operator..Watch movie "Behind the Enemy Lines"


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## BlackenTheSky

dreamer said:


> For DEZ....WSO is weapon system operator..Watch movie "Behind the Enemy Lines"



Hey i have seen that movie..About two pilots,their plane gets shot and one of them gets killed later.and the another how he escapes and then in the end his fellow soldiers saves him..


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## BlackenTheSky

Stealth said:


> Yes this picture belongs to Kuwait WAR and in this WAR i was in Kuwait  when IRAQ attack on Kuwait....



I wasnt born that time..but my parents were there too..now i am there too


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## BlackenTheSky

FIRST F 16 AIRCRAFT DELIVERED TO PAKISTAN(Image of flight test over florida before delivery)

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## BATMAN

dreamer said:


> For DEZ....WSO is weapon system operator..Watch movie "Behind the Enemy Lines"


In the movie the rear pilot was called navigator.
Correct me if i'm wrong.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

he was navigator.....

that was a naval carrier version of the FA-18 modified to carry out recce missions

as you could notice, it was carrying 2 aux fuel tanks and had a digital camera installed

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## BlackenTheSky

F-16 XL


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## BlackenTheSky




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## Abu Zolfiqar

dez said:


> F-16 XL




what in the......hell???

its almost an entirely different bloody craft! I like it though. Delta wing design looks fantastic

according to sources, this project was known as SCAMP (Supersonic Cruise and Maneuvering Program)


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## BlackenTheSky

Pakistan Air Force Patches

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## BlackenTheSky

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> what in the......hell???
> 
> its almost an entirely different bloody craft! I like it though. Delta wing design looks fantastic
> 
> according to sources, this project was known as SCAMP (Supersonic Cruise and Maneuvering Program)



The program was initially funded by the manufacturer, and involved conversion of two FSD F-16A's. In late 1980, the USAF and General Dynamics agreed on a cooperative test program, with the Air Force providing the third and fifth FSD F-16s (A-3 (#75-0747) and A-5 (#75-0749)) for modification into F-16XL prototypes. 

The fuselage was lengthened with 56 inches (142 cm) to 54 feet 1.86 inches by 'inserting' 2 new fuselage sections at the junctions between the three main fuselage sub-assemblies: one 26 inch (66 cm) section was inserted at the rear split point, and a 30 inch (76 cm) section at the front one. However, the rear 26in section, was not a continuous segment from the bottom to the top. Below the wing, a 26 inch segment was inserted just aft of the main landing gear, above the wing the segment was still 26 inches long, but inserted 26 inches farther aft than the segment below the wing. This made the section look like a backward "Z". The fuselage lengthening enabled the tail section to be canted up 3 degrees, necessary to prevent the engine nozzle from striking the runway during take off and landing.

The XL has no ventral fins for the same reason, but evidently did not need them, since the XL stability characteristics are in general superior to that of the F-16.

The engine inlet was only affected by the rear lower fuselage 26in extension, since the 30in forward fuselage extension was applied to the upper fuselage only. As a result, the F-16XL engine inlet is 26in longer than on a standard F-16A.

The wing planform was altered in a cranked-arrow delta wing (120% larger than the original F-16 wing), with extensive use of carbon composite materials (in the upper and lower layers of the skin) to save weight. Weight savings in the wings alone amounted to 600lbs. or 272kg. The wing is of multi-spar design with the leading edge sweep angle ranging from 50º to 70º, and is 2,800lbs (1,179 kg.) heavier than the original. The increase in internal volume (both by lengthening the fuselage and expanding the wing) allowed for a 82% increase in internal fuel capacity, while the increased wing area allowed the incorporation of up to 27 stores stations. Despite the apparent lengthening of the fuselage involved with the program, the new XL designation does NOT stand for "extra large".

Through wing planform improvements and camber optimizations, the final configuration offered a 25% improvement in maximum lift-to-drag ratio over the F-16 supersonically, and 11% improvement subsonic. The handling of the F-16XL was reportedly quite different from that of the standard F-16, offering a much smoother ride at high speeds and low altitudes. The configuration had matured into a very competent fighter with a large wing that allowed low-drag integration of large numbers of external weapons

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## Abu Zolfiqar

i guess it was merely a prototype and was never formally inducted in American or other services


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## Arsalan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i guess it was merely a prototype and was never formally inducted in American or other services



yes indeeed. the F16 XL project never entered military production and was onoly confined to prototpes which later on were transferred to NASA. 
for those who are intrested in this subject here is the link to study:
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article1.html
i hope it will help.
moreover wikipedia, like always present thorough but not reliable enough knowledge on the subject:
General Dynamics F-16XL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

regards!

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## Abu Zolfiqar

beautiful machine


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## BlackenTheSky




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## Barrett

The F-16XL was developed from the existing F-16 to study supersonic laminar airflow and sonic boom research.

Though appearing very much like the F-16 Fighting Falcon base model, the F-16XL was designed as a very different aircraft. The F-16XL was a conversion model development designed to study the effects of laminar airflow at supersonic speeds along with research into the causes and effects of sonic booms. Two such models were conceived with S/N 75-0749 being the single-seat aircraft and S/N 75-0747 as the twin-seat version.

The F-16XL retained the general look of the base F-16 Fighting Falcon but was in fact four feet longer than it's predecessor. The double delta-wing area was substantially dominant in the overall design, accounting for increased drag, lift and additional hard points stationed throughout the underside of the aircraft. Models were tested with the traditional wingtip mounted AIM-9 Sidewinder short-range air-to-air missiles as well as a plethora of drop bombs and other air-to-air medium range missiles. Testing with the F-16XL began in 1982 and continued on a decade later.

Incidentally, the F-16XL was designed to serve a dual purpose role and not only deliver scientific data but to also compete against the F-15E "Strike Eagle" dedicated multi-role derivative of the F-15 series - eventually losing out to the McDonnell Douglas modification. Only two F-16XL aircraft were ever produced as prototypes


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## BlackenTheSky

5th generation F16 is F 35


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## Abu Zolfiqar

forward-swept wing.....reminds me of Sukhoi-37 prototype


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## BlackenTheSky

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> forward-swept wing.....reminds me of Sukhoi-37 prototype



Ya..but this Aircrafts didnt became reality..only remained till drawings.The engineers at General Dynamics studied several designs, including one with canards and an aft-mounted wing. The final design submitted to DARPA used the landing gear and most fuselage components of the traditional F-16, yet it had a slightly lengthened and strengthened fuselage to allow the forward-swept wing to be attached, since the new wing was slightly larger than the traditional wing.

The SFW/F-16 was rejected by DARPA in January of 1981 in favor of the Grumman 712 (an F-5/F-20 derivative), later designated the X-29A. The decision was mainly a political one, as many thought that the test-scene at NASA was heavily dominated by General Dynamics' F-16s (AFTI, CCV, F-16XL). Another much-cited reason was that "One could only learn so much from a single airframe", though in retrospect, ongoing experiments with the F-16 seem to prove this wrong. It is interesting to note that the chosen design, the X-29A, consists for about 16% of F-16 components, including the Fly-By-Wire Flight Control System.

After the F-5 airframe was chosen for this project, all development into this version halted.


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## BlackenTheSky

F-16x


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## Abu Zolfiqar

no tail wing......its a totally different craft


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## BlackenTheSky

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> no tail wing......its a totally different craft



Tailless F-16


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## BlackenTheSky

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> no tail wing......its a totally different craft



Lockheed Martin Tactical Aircaft Systems has proposed an improved version of the F-16, the F-16X, as the USAF's next multirole fighter. It would have a new wing based on that of the F-22 and no vertical tail. It would have twice the range of the F/A-18E/F at two thirds of the cost.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

would be nice to see that project get realized


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## BlackenTheSky



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## BlackenTheSky




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## BlackenTheSky

High speed and afterburner


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## BlackenTheSky



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## BlackenTheSky



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## Abu Zolfiqar

^^^^^^^^

deadly combo. Especially with the B-52 and the A-10


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## BlackenTheSky

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> 
> deadly combo. Especially with the B-52 and the A-10



I think this is the best picture we had so far


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## BlackenTheSky

Here is one more...


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## BlackenTheSky



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## nightrider_saulat

*what is the radar range of our current F-16 A/Bs
which we have with us
and does they can operate BVR air-air missile*


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## Barrett

nightrider_saulat said:


> *what is the radar range of our current F-16 A/Bs
> which we have with us
> and does they can operate BVR air-air missile*



*APG 66*

Now as far as the range goes... there are different modes on the radar



*Six Air-to-Air modes *

Look-down (25-35nm) 
look- up (30-40nm)
four Air combat maneuvering (ACM) modes (search and track, track while scan, automatic tracking, and air combat search) 

*Two Air-to-Ground modes* & *Two Air to Sea modes*

Primary air-combat mode is look-down. In that mode, the APG-66 can detect a fighter-size plane at a range of 34.5 Nautical miles (55.6 kilometers). Four modes are available in air-to-air combat. In dogfight mode, the radar scans a 20 degrees x 20 degrees field. In high-g maneuvers, it scans a 40 degrees x10 degrees pattern.


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## MZUBAIR

Barrett said:


> *APG 66*
> 
> Now as far as the range goes... there are different modes on the radar
> 
> 
> 
> *Six Air-to-Air modes *
> 
> Look-down (25-35nm)
> look- up (30-40nm)
> four Air combat maneuvering (ACM) modes (search and track, track while scan, automatic tracking, and air combat search)
> 
> *Two Air-to-Ground modes* & *Two Air to Sea modes*
> 
> Primary air-combat mode is look-down. In that mode, the APG-66 can detect a fighter-size plane at a range of 34.5 Nautical miles (55.6 kilometers). Four modes are available in air-to-air combat. In dogfight mode, the radar scans a 20 degrees x 20 degrees field. In high-g maneuvers, it scans a 40 degrees x10 degrees pattern.



JF-17 Radar "KLJ-7 Radar" is far batter then APG 66.

*Radar Modes*

Range While Search (RWS) 
Velocity Search (VS) 
Single Target Track (STT) 
Track While Scan (TWS) 
Dual Target Track (DTT) 
Situational Awareness Mode (SAM) 
Air Combat Mode (ACM)(with five sub-modes) 
Real Beam Map (RBM) 
Doppler Beam Sharpening (DBS) 
Ground Moving Target Indication/Ground Moving Target Track (GMTI/GMTT) 
Air to Ground Ranging (AGR) 
Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) 
Sea Single Target Track (SSTT) 
Beacon (BCN) 

Look-up: &#8805;105 km (for RCS of 5 m2) 
Look-down: &#8805;85 km (for RCS of 5 m2) 
Total targets tracked: 10 in TWS (Track-While-Scan) mode 

The KLJ-7 has multiple modes, both beyond-visual-range (BVR) and close-in air-to-air modes, ground surveillance modes and a robust anti-jamming capability. The radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets.[2] The detection range for targets with a radar cross-section of 5 square meters is stated to be &#8805;105 km (&#8805;85 km in look-down mode). Surface sea targets can be detected at up to 135 km


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## nightrider_saulat

Barrett said:


> *APG 66*
> 
> Now as far as the range goes... there are different modes on the radar
> 
> 
> 
> *Six Air-to-Air modes *
> 
> Look-down (25-35nm)
> look- up (30-40nm)
> four Air combat maneuvering (ACM) modes (search and track, track while scan, automatic tracking, and air combat search)
> 
> *Two Air-to-Ground modes* & *Two Air to Sea modes*
> 
> Primary air-combat mode is look-down. In that mode, the APG-66 can detect a fighter-size plane at a range of 34.5 Nautical miles (55.6 kilometers). Four modes are available in air-to-air combat. In dogfight mode, the radar scans a 20 degrees x 20 degrees field. In high-g maneuvers, it scans a 40 degrees x10 degrees pattern.



*so it means in current status it can't fired SD-10
am i right?*


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## Owais

nightrider_saulat said:


> *so it means in current status it can't fired SD-10
> am i right?*



before Firing SD-10, you need to integrate it with APG-66. Which is not going to happen


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## Arsalan

yes! for F16 we are hoping to get the AMRAAM 120 C5 where as the SD10 are for JF17z and may be FC20z!

regards!


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## Arsalan

could not resist,,, sorry if it is a repeatation!!!!




















regards!


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## TaimiKhan

MZUBAIR said:


> JF-17 Radar "KLJ-7 Radar" is far batter then APG 66.
> 
> *Radar Modes*
> 
> Range While Search (RWS)
> Velocity Search (VS)
> Single Target Track (STT)
> Track While Scan (TWS)
> Dual Target Track (DTT)
> Situational Awareness Mode (SAM)
> Air Combat Mode (ACM)(with five sub-modes)
> Real Beam Map (RBM)
> Doppler Beam Sharpening (DBS)
> Ground Moving Target Indication/Ground Moving Target Track (GMTI/GMTT)
> Air to Ground Ranging (AGR)
> Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR)
> Sea Single Target Track (SSTT)
> Beacon (BCN)
> 
> Look-up: &#8805;105 km (for RCS of 5 m2)
> Look-down: &#8805;85 km (for RCS of 5 m2)
> Total targets tracked: 10 in TWS (Track-While-Scan) mode
> 
> The KLJ-7 has multiple modes, both beyond-visual-range (BVR) and close-in air-to-air modes, ground surveillance modes and a robust anti-jamming capability. The radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets.[2] The detection range for targets with a radar cross-section of 5 square meters is stated to be &#8805;105 km (&#8805;85 km in look-down mode). Surface sea targets can be detected at up to 135 km



JF-17's radar is not KLJ-7 anymore, its now better then the original specifications printed about 4-5 years ago.


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## owais.usmani

taimikhan said:


> JF-17's radar is not KLJ-7 anymore, its now better then the original specifications printed about 4-5 years ago.



not KLJ-7?? then what is it? can you please specify?


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## TaimiKhan

owais.usmani said:


> not KLJ-7?? then what is it? can you please specify?



Type is not known as for now, some rumors say it may be KLJ-10/JL-10A, as after the evolution stage of JF-17, the nose of the JF-17 got changed & became larger then before, meaning it can house a bigger antenna of a radar. 

Type will be known sometime later, but the capabilities overall are much improved over the original one.

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## Barrett

taimikhan said:


> Type is not known as for now, some rumors say it may be KLJ-10/JL-10A, as after the evolution stage of JF-17, the nose of the JF-17 got changed & became larger then before, meaning it can house a bigger antenna of a radar.
> 
> Type will be known sometime later, but the capabilities overall are much improved over the original one.



what happened to the Grifo S-7 ?


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## PakShaheen79

owais.usmani said:


> not KLJ-7?? then what is it? can you please specify?



Bro, I think no one will able to answer u with 100% authenticity as PAC/CAC have delink development of avionics for Thunders from its Airframe developments. One aim was to keep it on fast track and other thing which came as a french benefit along with this was "secrecy about radar" ... But one thing is sure whatever it is it is not KLJ-7 anymore.

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## TaimiKhan

Barrett said:


> what happened to the Grifo S-7 ?



I believe we may see an AESA radar from the manufacturer of Grifo radar in future if they wish to keep the Pakistani market as China is also improving its products and pitching it against western options.

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## nightrider_saulat

arsalanaslam123 said:


> yes! for F16 we are hoping to get the AMRAAM 120 C5 where as the SD10 are for JF17z and may be FC20z!
> 
> regards!



*arslan i have known that TUSAS has won the tender to MLUed our falcons please
after being MLUed does our falcons are going to be able to fire BVR
missile air to air missile
or will they also be fitted with new radars*


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## PAFAce

nightrider_saulat said:


> *arslan i have known that TUSAS has won the tender to MLUed our falcons please
> after being MLUed does our falcons are going to be able to fire BVR
> missile air to air missile
> or will they also be fitted with new radars*


The F-16s will be upgraded to near Block 52 standards in almost all departments except engine, fuel capacity and max payload (or Gross Take-off Weight GTOW). This means that yes, they will be BVR capable, and yes, they will be getting the new APG-68 Radars.

Here are all the details. The credit for this goes to *blain2*:


> The MLU upgrade kits will include: APG-68(V)9 radar; Embedded GPS/INS (EGI); Link-16 data link; APX-113 Advanced Identify Friend or Foe (AIFF); Color Cockpit with Color Moving Map; ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) Pod; Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) Cockpit and External Lighting; Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod; Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS); Reconnaissance Pod capability; improved avionics systems; JDAM capability; EGBU capability; AIM-120 AMRAAM capability; and AGM-84 Harpoon capability. While many of the avionics systems and capabilities are common with the new Block 52s and the MLU, some significant differences remain between the MLU F-16 Block 15s and the new PAF Block 52s: there are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time; there are no engine improvements; and, there are no improvements to payload capacity. Overall, the MLU program will extend the service life of Pakistan&#8217;s original F-16 aircraft and very significantly increase the capability of the Pakistan Air Force to conduct Close Air Support and night precision attack missions. I would like to highlight that in parallel with the significant improvement in weapon accuracy gained by precision guided munitions like JDAM, there is the potential to dramatically reduce collateral damage and civilian casualties.



Overall, in terms of sheer capability and parity with the IAF, 45 MLU F-16 Block-15s will do us a lot more good than 18 F-16 Block 52s. Combined, they will be very potent indeed. Enhanced by an additional squadron or two of FC-20s (which is, for all intents, a formidable paper plane right now, but a paper plane nonetheless) and backed up by the JF-17 in large numbers, it looks like Pakistan will, after a very long time, finally achieve an Air Force she deserves.

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## nightrider_saulat

PAFAce said:


> The F-16s will be upgraded to near Block 52 standards in almost all departments except engine, fuel capacity and max payload (or Gross Take-off Weight GTOW). This means that yes, they will be BVR capable, and yes, they will be getting the new APG-68 Radars.
> 
> Here are all the details. The credit for this goes to *blain2*:
> 
> 
> Overall, in terms of sheer capability and parity with the IAF, 45 MLU F-16 Block-15s will do us a lot more good than 18 F-16 Block 52s. Combined, they will be very potent indeed. Enhanced by an additional squadron or two of FC-20s (which is, for all intents, a formidable paper plane right now, but a paper plane nonetheless) and backed up by the JF-17 in large numbers, it looks like Pakistan will, after a very long time, finally achieve an Air Force she deserves.


*thanks a lot for your information "ace"​*


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## Arsalan

Barrett said:


> what happened to the Grifo S-7 ?



well the Grifo S7 were never there for the first block planes, moreover keeping in view the pace at which PAF wants to induct the planes i dont think it will be there even in blk II. as far as i am concerned and my discussion with one of my friends who is an aeronautical engg is concerned i have concluded that the european touch might only be introduced in or even after blk 3 aircrafts.

regards!

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## Arsalan

nightrider_saulat said:


> *arslan i have known that TUSAS has won the tender to MLUed our falcons please
> after being MLUed does our falcons are going to be able to fire BVR
> missile air to air missile
> or will they also be fitted with new radars*



well brother i guess PAFAce have said it all..
i totally agree!

regards!


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## PakShaheen79

I think delinking airframe developments of Thunder from its avionics was a good decision after all. Now, PAF can choose any avavilable and affordable radar she wants to.


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## Windjammer

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/TheHoustonRocket/4F-16DBlk52.jpg

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/TheHoustonRocket/5F-16DBlk52.jpg

Can someone explain as to why in the first image the AMRAAM is attached, while in the second it's disappeared.??


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## Chanakyaa

Windjammer said:


> http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/TheHoustonRocket/4F-16DBlk52.jpg
> 
> http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/TheHoustonRocket/5F-16DBlk52.jpg
> 
> Can someone explain as to why in the first image the AMRAAM is attached, while in the second it's disappeared.??



Very Observant Indeed. Really Strange.

May be It was Fired .. ( take it easy.. )


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## Sapper

XiNiX said:


> Very Observant Indeed. Really Strange.
> 
> May be It was Fired .. ( take it easy.. )



or accidently jettisoned 

... just like the way a student of Sir Murad jettisoned fuel tanks of Mirage in hanger


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## Windjammer

XiNiX said:


> Very Observant Indeed. Really Strange.
> 
> May be It was Fired .. ( take it easy.. )



It's not that strange exactly, look carefully in the second image, the out lines of the weapon are clearly visible.
My source tells me the picture was PS by some one who couldn't digest seeing such an advance weapon associated with the PAF.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i was under the impression that the MLU included upgradation of engine to the newer P & W F100-PW-229s.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Windjammer said:


> http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/TheHoustonRocket/4F-16DBlk52.jpg
> 
> http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/TheHoustonRocket/5F-16DBlk52.jpg
> 
> Can someone explain as to why in the first image the AMRAAM is attached, while in the second it's disappeared.??



its still there, the 2nd pic just cuts it out


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## Imran Khan

shamefully some one remove amram by PS .i think we know who can do this cheap job.

*ps image*








*real imges*


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## rizhussain44

Windjammer said:


> It's not that strange exactly, look carefully in the second image, the out lines of the weapon are clearly visible.
> My source tells me the picture was PS by some one who couldn't digest seeing such an advance weapon associated with the PAF.



I think you are right. By looking very closely at that area where the missile was suppose to be one can notice 2 to 3 nudged circular impressions with different texture.


----------



## rizhussain44

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> its still there, the 2nd pic just cuts it out



He is not talking about the missile that is on the wing tip but the one next to it.


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## PAFAce

rizhussain44 said:


> I think you are right. By looking very closely at that area where the missile was suppose to be one can notice 2 to 3 nudged circular impressions with different texture.


Nope, his has been discussed before. The handing over ceremony was held over a period of two days. On the day of the unveiling and static display, the AMRAAMs were attached. On the second day, with the flight display, the AMRAAMs were not attached.

No Indian conspiracy theory here, sorry to disappoint.


----------



## Arsalan

PAFAce said:


> Nope, his has been discussed before. The handing over ceremony was held over a period of two days. On the day of the unveiling and static display, the AMRAAMs were attached. On the second day, with the flight display, the AMRAAMs were not attached.
> 
> No Indian conspiracy theory here, sorry to disappoint.



or may be they are gone...booommm..... but relax we may soon be hearing about some SU30 shot down...  

regards!


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## Windjammer

PAFAce said:


> Nope, his has been discussed before. The handing over ceremony was held over a period of two days. On the day of the unveiling and static display, the AMRAAMs were attached. On the second day, with the flight display, the AMRAAMs were not attached.
> 
> No Indian conspiracy theory here, sorry to disappoint.


But my dear one can clearly see that the following images were taken on the same day. For the flight display, not just the AMRAAMS but the Mavericks were also removed.

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/TheHoustonRocket/4F-16DBlk52.jpg


http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/tt269/TheHoustonRocket/5F-16DBlk52.jpg

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## owais.usmani




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## SSGPA1

What is the current eta?


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## fatman17

SSGPA1 said:


> What is the current eta?



the first F-16D will be delivered by June-2010 and the contract will be completed by December-2010 - so 12 months from today!


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## fatman17

from Dec-09 issue of AFM;

' LM unveilled the first of 18 new F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft for the PAF in a ceremony at its Fort Worth, Texas, facility on October 13. The aircraft, the first two-seat F-16D, 10801 (c/n JF-1, USAF/07-0013), had made its maiden flight from Ft.Worth on September 29 and made a second sortie on October 1. The PAF ordered 12 F-16C Block 52s (c/ns JE-1 to JE-12, USAF serials 07-0001 to 07-0012), and six F-16D Block 52 (s/ns JF-1 to JF-6, USAF serials 07-0013 to 07-0018) on September 30, 2006. All the aircraft will equip a new squadron that are to be based at the recently modernised Shahbaz Air Base near Jacobabad in Sindh. The deal also includes the modification of 26 previously embargoed F-16A/Bs and 34 mid-life upgrade kits for existing PAF F-16 fleet. Four F-16s are currently being used as 'pattern aircraft' for the MLU work at Ft.Worth, with the 'production work' being carried out by Turkish aerospace company, TUSAS based at Ankara-Murted.
Although the four previous PAF F-16 deals had been dubbed Peace Gate I to IV, at the request of the PAF because of the negative connotations of the embargo on deliveries (which have now been lifted), the Block 52 order is designated Peace Drive I. The PAF received its first F-16 in F-16A/B Block 15 configuration in 1982 and the new programme now brings total PAF F-16 orders to 78, with 9 having been lost to accidents. The first F-16D under the Peace Drive I programme will be handed over to the USAF (as agent for the PAF FMS process) in December. First aircraft arrivals in Pakistan are due in June 2010, with delivery of all 18 expected to be completed in December 2010.'

12 embargoed F-16A/B are still to be delivered.

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## nightrider_saulat

*thanks for posting this news sir!*


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Sapper said:


> or accidently jettisoned
> 
> ... just like the way a student of Sir Murad jettisoned fuel tanks of Mirage in hanger




pics/vid or it never happened!


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

fatman17 said:


> from Dec-09 issue of AFM;
> 
> ' LM unveilled the first of 18 new F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft for the PAF in a ceremony at its Fort Worth, Texas, facility on October 13. The aircraft, the first two-seat F-16D, 10801 (c/n JF-1, USAF/07-0013), had made its maiden flight from Ft.Worth on *September 29 *and made a second sortie on October 1. .



best birthday present i ever got in a while


----------



## PAFAce

fatman17 said:


> First aircraft arrivals in Pakistan are due in June 2010, with delivery of all 18 expected to be completed in December 2010.'
> 
> 12 embargoed F-16A/B are still to be delivered.



Here is what bothers me. What exactly is the US Govt. planning to do with our F-16s between December 2009 to June 2010? 6+ months seems an awfully long time, and I am not sure what it is that will be going on in these 6 months. One, two, maybe three months, max, makes sense for administrative work, but six months is quite steep. Could this have anything, _possibly_, to do with the escalation in Afghanistan? I mean, it would be a lot easier for Obama to justify arming the PAF if the battle is going in the US' favor. I hate to speculate, but this idea doesn't seem too far off what Obama said in his Afghanistan strategy address:


> We will strengthen Pakistan's capacity to target those groups that threaten our countries and have made it clear that we cannot tolerate a safe haven for terrorists whose location is known and whose intentions are clear.



It would be interesting to see if, during that six month period, PAF personnel are allowed access to the F-16s for evaluation, familiarization and training purposes. 

As for the embargoed F-16s, I believe we won't see them before they've undergone MLU. I, for some reason, am very uncomfortable with the idea of PAF F-16s outside of Pakistan, even if it is in Turkey. There never seems to be any hurry to get them back in Pakistan, where they should be.

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## mean_bird

PAFAce said:


> Here is what bothers me. What exactly is the US Govt. planning to do with our F-16s between December 2009 to June 2010? 6+ months seems an awfully long time, and I am not sure what it is that will be going on in these 6 months. One, two, maybe three months, max, makes sense for administrative work, but six months is quite steep. Could this have anything, _possibly_, to do with the escalation in Afghanistan? I mean, it would be a lot easier for Obama to justify arming the PAF if the battle is going in the US' favor. I hate to speculate, but this idea doesn't seem too far off what Obama said in his Afghanistan strategy address:



PAFAce,

the agreement was signed in 2006/7 and we knew it then that the planes will start arriving in june 2010. Its not like the plane is made but the delivery schedule is now being changed. 

Frankly, I am not very happy of PAF buying these F-16s. I can understand their lack of options and hence going for the F-16s. Lets hope we get them. 

As for the what they are going to do till june 2010, I don't think when the ceremony was held, the planes are 100% ready to be delivered. Ceremonies can always be held in spite of actual work done. Training, familiarization, etc will take some time. Also the planes will be delivered when a "batch" is ready and not like one plane rolls out of factory and flies home, next one comes out and flies home. 





PAFAce said:


> As for the embargoed F-16s, I believe we won't see them before they've undergone MLU.



I believe fatman is talking about the initially PAF destined planes in use with US Navy and not the ones undergoing MLUs. US Navy hasn't yet agreed to let them go so their MLU isn't even on the table.

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## was

embargoed pak f-16s







NSAWC F-16A wearing the brown camo scheme. This is one of the embargoed batch that were destined for the Pakistan AF

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## was

Taxying back to the ramp after a morning mission. This is one of the batch of embargoed aircraft that had been destined for Pakistan. They spent approximately 10 years in the desert at AMARC before entering service with the USN in the adversary role. 






two seat Falcon taxies back to the ramp.Another of the embargoed Pakistan F16 
working for the USN now.






Looking down from the tower onto this NSAWC F-16A, one of the embargoed batch that were destined for Pakistan.






First shot on the database of this NSAWC F-16A. Originally one the embargoed batch that were due to go to Pakistan. This aircraft then spent approximately 10 years in storage at AMARC before becoming an adversary type with the USN.

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## Sapper

Hi, I can see that some F16s have slightly golden-ish canopies while the others have crystal clear canopies. Can someone tell me whats the difference ?

Regards,
Sapper


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## TaimiKhan

Sapper said:


> Hi, I can see that some F16s have slightly golden-ish canopies while the others have crystal clear canopies. Can someone tell me whats the difference ?
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper



Most probably they have been tinted for protection from UV rays of Sun, as if you see the back end of the tinted canopies, they are having non-tinted glass piece, meaning the front part of the glass canopy have been tinted on purpose for sun protection.


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## kursed

Sapper said:


> Hi, I can see that some F16s have slightly golden-ish canopies while the others have crystal clear canopies. Can someone tell me whats the difference ?
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper


Gold tinted canopies are designed to lower F-16s head-on radar cross-section. But since they have operational issues with NVGs, much of the F-16 fleet is reverting back to clear canopies.

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## Sapper

kursed said:


> Gold tinted canopies are designed to lower F-16s head-on radar cross-section. But since they have operational issues with NVGs, much of the F-16 fleet is reverting back to clear canopies.



I knew that, just wanted confirmation, thanks for that. Also note that in some photos F22s also have golden canopies to the extent that pilot is not visible at all (just like the visor of EVA space suit). Is it possible that LM fixed the problem of NV goggle in F22 ?

Regards,
Sapper


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Maybe like some of us who have tinted windows on our cars, maybe some of the pilots had gold window tint on their canopies---what do you say-----just kidding---


----------



## fatman17

*11 Dec 1988 
Pakistan orders 11 F-16s (Peace Gate III).* - never saw the light of day!

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## truepakistani17

fatman17 said:


> *11 Dec 1988
> Pakistan orders 11 F-16s (Peace Gate III).* - never saw the light of day!



i wish agianst all odd that this do not happens to our Blk52z!!!!


----------



## fatman17

truepakistani17 said:


> i wish agianst all odd that this do not happens to our Blk52z!!!!



very un-likely now!


----------



## Barrett

fatman17 said:


> *11 Dec 1988
> Pakistan orders 11 F-16s (Peace Gate III).* - never saw the light of day!



The 12 planes that we received under EDA between 2005-2008
04 F-16A Block 15OCU 
08 F-16B Block 15OCU

Weren't these planes from Peace Gate III/IV ?


----------



## TaimiKhan

Barrett said:


> The 12 planes that we received under EDA between 2005-2008
> 04 F-16A Block 15OCU
> 08 F-16B Block 15OCU
> 
> Weren't these planes from Peace Gate III/IV ?



Nops, those are still with the USN and being used too. 

The ones we got were excess for the USAF and given to us free of cost, but money for modifications, upgrades were given.

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## Barrett

taimikhan said:


> Nops, those are still with the USN and being used too.
> 
> The ones we got were excess for the USAF and given to us free of cost, but money for modifications, upgrades were given.



Peace Gate III 
F-16A Block 15OCU 6 
F-16B Block 15OCU 5 

Peace Gate IV 
F-16A Block 15OCU 7 
F-16B Block 15OCU 10 
F-16A Block 15OCU 41 
F-16B Block 15OCU 2

We paid for how many of these planes ?


----------



## TaimiKhan

Barrett said:


> Peace Gate III
> F-16A Block 15OCU 6
> F-16B Block 15OCU 5
> 
> Peace Gate IV
> F-16A Block 15OCU 7
> F-16B Block 15OCU 10
> F-16A Block 15OCU 41
> F-16B Block 15OCU 2
> 
> We paid for how many of these planes ?



1989-2000:

By 1990 PAF had placed orders for additional seventy-one F-16&#8217;s. However in 1990 PAF suffered a setback when Pressler amendment was passed by US congress banning the delivery of F-16&#8217;s to Pakistan. 28 already built F-16&#8217;s under peace gate III & IV program were shifted to AMARC at Davis-Monthan AFB for storage. During the coming years various plans were conceived to resolve the issue however none of the plans were successful. Finally in 2002 US assigned these aircrafts to USAF and USN to fill the aggressor role. 

Amount was around 658Million US$ which was paid for the 28 fighter aircrafts.

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## fatman17

taimikhan said:


> 1989-2000:
> 
> By 1990 PAF had placed orders for additional seventy-one F-16s. However in 1990 PAF suffered a setback when Pressler amendment was passed by US congress banning the delivery of F-16s to Pakistan. 28 already built F-16s under peace gate III & IV program were shifted to AMARC at Davis-Monthan AFB for storage. During the coming years various plans were conceived to resolve the issue however none of the plans were successful. Finally in 2002 US assigned these aircrafts to USAF and USN to fill the aggressor role.
> 
> *Amount was around 658Million US$ which was paid for the 28 fighter aircrafts.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> the money was returned in the form of 'soya beans'!!!


----------



## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> taimikhan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1989-2000:
> 
> By 1990 PAF had placed orders for additional seventy-one F-16s. However in 1990 PAF suffered a setback when Pressler amendment was passed by US congress banning the delivery of F-16s to Pakistan. 28 already built F-16s under peace gate III & IV program were shifted to AMARC at Davis-Monthan AFB for storage. During the coming years various plans were conceived to resolve the issue however none of the plans were successful. Finally in 2002 US assigned these aircrafts to USAF and USN to fill the aggressor role.
> 
> *Amount was around 658Million US$ which was paid for the 28 fighter aircrafts.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> the money was returned in the form of 'soya beans'!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And wheat import also i believe ??? They shipped wheat also to compensate for the money we owed.
> 
> But if the interest was added to the amount with US for nearly a decade, i remember analysts quoting a 1BIllion US$ figure that US owed us, but our oligarchs just took wheat and soybeans for about 650MillionUS$.
Click to expand...


----------



## truepakistani17

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Maybe like some of us who have tinted windows on our cars, maybe some of the pilots had gold window tint on their canopies---what do you say-----just kidding---



well at our place the traffic wardens usually also charge you if you have tinted windows,,, what for pilots!!!


----------



## ghazi52

taimikhan said:


> fatman17 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And wheat import also i believe ??? They shipped wheat also to compensate for the money we owed.
> 
> But if the interest was added to the amount with US for nearly a decade, i remember analysts quoting a 1BIllion US$ figure that US owed us, but our oligarchs just took wheat and soybeans for about 650MillionUS$.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Pakistan got cash also ??????
> I believe it was in BB time $ 350 M.
> But where it went, we do not know..........
Click to expand...


----------



## BATMAN

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Maybe like some of us who have tinted windows on our cars, maybe some of the pilots had gold window tint on their canopies---what do you say-----just kidding---



I believe gold and blue tint are for purpose of camo.


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## abbasniazi

I wish pakistan has written down a clause in the latest deal for F16 Block52+ that they'd expect and accept only F16s not wheat for their money this time.

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## Stealth

Today in our fleet atleast 200 - 300 F16s but unfortuntly we have just 40 OLD f16s hmmmm what a Friendship btw PK-US


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## neyaab

pakistan zenda bad


----------



## MAB

neyaab said:


> pakistan zenda bad



I doubt that you are a Pakistani.


----------



## TOPGUN

Stealth said:


> Today in our fleet atleast 200 - 300 F16s but unfortuntly we have just 40 OLD f16s hmmmm what a Friendship btw PK-US



Us has a itch towards us in politics and in frienship anyhow our old f-16's are going through mlu and will be brought up to speed to blk 52 standards anyhow also 18 new blk 52's are on the way as in addition to option for 18 more which i doubt we will go for lets just hope we get the 18 we orderd for now and look else where for our needs like  its a messed up frienship forsure and i seem to think its unfair but thats life gota move on with life and not cry GOD bless


----------



## Stealth

TOPGUN said:


> Us has a itch towards us in politics and in frienship anyhow our old f-16's are going through mlu and will be brought up to speed to blk 52 standards anyhow also 18 new blk 52's are on the way as in addition to option for 18 more which i doubt we will go for lets just hope we get the 18 we orderd for now and look else where for our needs like  its a messed up frienship forsure and i seem to think its unfair but thats life gota move on with life and not cry GOD bless



Ask people of pakistan because the money belongs to them they are not earning HARAM ka maal!

its much easy to sit on the seat and post comments everywhere jinka paisa lagta zaya hota hey halaal ka they knows better thn anyone!


----------



## TOPGUN

Stealth said:


> Ask people of pakistan because the money belongs to them they are not earning HARAM ka maal!
> 
> its much easy to sit on the seat and post comments everywhere jinka paisa lagta zaya hota hey halaal ka they knows better thn anyone!



Boss wat is your point ? in general and towards me? i don't get it...


----------



## Arsalan

Stealth said:


> Ask people of pakistan because the money belongs to them they are not earning HARAM ka maal!
> 
> its much easy to sit on the seat and post comments everywhere jinka paisa lagta zaya hota hey halaal ka they knows better thn anyone!




quite a confusing post...
bro wasa jin ka halla ka paisa laga hota ha na,,,,, they also want Pakistan to prosperous nation. what do you mean to say that pakistani people want to go for US f16z as they are comming from free rahter then geting a chines system. bro people are not to be fooled anymore, we alll know the ways that US have treated us in the past. if someone considers US as our friend and thinks that US attitude towrd us is going to change then he is nothing but a fool..

regards!


----------



## Stealth

TOPGUN said:


> Boss wat is your point ? in general and towards me? i don't get it...



np man its not torwards you its towards our those leaders who want PAF always "GO FOR US Equipments payed money before deal and after deal we got ""SHOES" from US. How Pakistan buy Weapons ? from our leaders pocket ?? or for people of pak money ?? TAX payerss! ..

So its not torwards you 



arsalanaslam123 said:


> quite a confusing post...
> bro wasa jin ka halla ka paisa laga hota ha na,,,,, they also want Pakistan to prosperous nation. what do you mean to say that pakistani people want to go for US f16z as they are comming from free rahter then geting a chines system. bro people are not to be fooled anymore, we alll know the ways that US have treated us in the past. if someone considers US as our friend and thinks that US attitude towrd us is going to change then he is nothing but a fool..
> 
> regards!



You didnt understand my post

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## TOPGUN

Stealth said:


> np man its not torwards you its towards our those leaders and who people who "GO FOR US Equipments payed money before deal and after deal we got ""SHOES" from US. How Pakistan buy Weapons from our leaders pocket ?? or for people pockets ?? TAX payerss! ..
> 
> So its not torwards you
> 
> 
> 
> You didnt understand my post



I got it brother itz all good !


----------



## truepakistani17

spot on Stealth SIr jee...


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## TOPGUN

truepakistani17 said:


> spot on Stealth SIr jee...



Wat was the spot on bro?


----------



## Dr-Sangeen

I have been contributing to this forum for almost two months now. During this i time i have fought with the sheer arrogance of the moderators and admins of this forum. 

The final straw was when they closed my welcome thread, as some of my friends were posting there. 

I asked them for a reason and the reply was and i quote " i shall consider myself lucky that it was allowed for that long..." 

No I don't consider myself lucky at all, they shall consider themselves lucky that people, like myself, waste their time by posting on this web page. 

As far as i am concern if my welcome thread is not good enough to be here then they don't deserve to have my other contributions to this forum either.

Hence i am withdrawing all my posts from this forum.


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## SBD-3

December 29, 2009: The Egyptian Air Force is buying $750 million worth of upgrades for 156 of the F-110-GE-100 engines that power their F-16 fighters. This program includes other new components for the aircraft, but the engine is the main item. The refurbished engines result in fewer engine failures (very critical for a single engine fighter like the F-16), less fuel consumption and less maintenance. The upgrades will take place over the next seven years.

The money actually comes from the United States, which gives Egypt $1.3 billion a year in military aid. This is basically a bribe to reward Egypt for making peace with Israel three decades ago (at great diplomatic cost to Egypt, and the cause of much internal unrest). The aid must be used to buy American weapons, which increases the military links between Egypt and the United States.


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## hataf

hasnain0099 said:


> December 29, 2009: The Egyptian Air Force is buying $750 million worth of upgrades for 156 of the F-110-GE-100 engines that power their F-16 fighters. This program includes other new components for the aircraft, but the engine is the main item. The refurbished engines result in fewer engine failures (very critical for a single engine fighter like the F-16), less fuel consumption and less maintenance. The upgrades will take place over the next seven years.
> 
> The money actually comes from the United States, which gives Egypt $1.3 billion a year in military aid. This is basically a bribe to reward Egypt for making peace with Israel three decades ago (at great diplomatic cost to Egypt, and the cause of much internal unrest). The aid must be used to buy American weapons, which increases the military links between Egypt and the United States.


so the Egypt become dependent on USA and they can pin down any time they like


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## RameeX Xaved

hataf said:


> so the Egypt become dependent on USA and they can pin down any time they like



why dont we learn from these examples? that shows exactly how US uses money as a tool to force countries to bow down before its policies. kerry lugar bill was just another trap for us but our !@#$! gov


----------



## hataf

RameeX Xaved said:


> why dont we learn from these examples? that shows exactly how US uses money as a tool to force countries to bow down before its policies. kerry lugar bill was just another trap for us but our !@#$! gov



yes thats right 
but our gov't is like  toward aid
and USA is just like


----------



## BlackenTheSky

hataf said:


> so the Egypt become dependent on USA and they can pin down any time they like



Egypt is always dependent on US and ISRAEL.F 16 is only a small eg. of that.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

dez said:


> Egypt is always dependent on US and ISRAEL.F 16 is only a small eg. of that.



US yes....israel, no. 

in fact, Egypt only gains from israeli tourism (e.g. Sharm El Sheikh and other parts of Sinai)

we are pretty dependent on U.S. for F-16 after-sales service.


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## nightrider_saulat

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> US yes....israel, no.
> 
> in fact, Egypt only gains from israeli tourism (e.g. Sharm El Sheikh and other parts of Sinai)
> 
> we are pretty dependent on U.S. for F-16 after-sales service.



i have heard that the israeli influence is so much that they even don't have the right to buy precision guided bombs from US for their F-16....


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

nightrider_saulat said:


> i have heard that the israeli influence is so much that they even don't have the right to buy precision guided bombs from US for their F-16....



oh, no doubt about it!

but that is just due to strong lobbying, and diplomatic bias. But i dont think Egypt is reliant on israel for survival.....even though diplomatic TIES with israel are to its convenience. It gives some "assurance" to the U.S. that they wont pose threat to israel. We could also talk about how it puts pressure on Egypt government NOT to allow the opening of Rafah border, which would provide some relief to Gazans under blockade.


you know how it is with the Americans, when it comes to defence related acquisitions. Unless they REALLY need you ---there is always a catch; always strings attached, etc.

and it still appears that israeli lobby groups like AIPAC are pretty powerful, and can block high tech goods to countries within its neighbourhood and even beyond.



In fact, i'm surprised that Lockheed Martin was allowed to sell Egypt the LANTIRN/Sniper targetting pods (it was either one, or the other, or both).


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## blain2

The only thing that Egyptians are being held back from on the F-16s is AMRAAMs. Aside from that all armament is allowed and this includes PGMs.


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## nightrider_saulat

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> oh, no doubt about it!
> 
> but that is just due to strong lobbying, and diplomatic bias. But i dont think Egypt is reliant on israel for survival.....even though diplomatic TIES with israel are to its convenience. It gives some "assurance" to the U.S. that they wont pose threat to israel. We could also talk about how it puts pressure on Egypt government NOT to allow the opening of Rafah border, which would provide some relief to Gazans under blockade.
> 
> 
> you know how it is with the Americans, when it comes to defence related acquisitions. Unless they REALLY need you ---there is always a catch; always strings attached, etc.
> 
> and it still appears that israeli lobby groups like AIPAC are pretty powerful, and can block high tech goods to countries within its neighbourhood and even beyond.
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, i'm surprised that Lockheed Martin was allowed to sell Egypt the LANTIRN/Sniper targetting pods (it was either one, or the other, or both).


*despite of all these lobies and pressure throuh US even in today scenario i think egypt can't sustain israeli air dominance.......in one on one fight....
egypt 240 falcon+mirage 2000
v/s
israel 299 falcons + 68 eagles
*


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## Abu Zolfiqar

israel has a pretty powerful airforce...nobody is denying that

in fact, the only Air Force in the region that could actually challenge israel 1-on-1 would be Turk Hava Kuvvetleri

and they are licensed under Lockheed Martin to modify and produce the falcons...



cut the military aid to israel, and they wouldnt last too long. But it seems Egypt, Jordan, israel, Pakistan, Turkiye --we all rely on U.S. to much extent as far as Air Force is concerned.


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## blain2

nightrider_saulat said:


> *despite of all these lobies and pressure throuh US even in today scenario i think egypt can't sustain israeli air dominance.......in one on one fight....
> egypt 240 falcon+mirage 2000
> v/s
> israel 299 falcons + 68 eagles
> *



Depends on pilot training and effective employment, otherwise the Egyptians have the hardware to not only put up a great fight, but also seriously damage Israeli ground offensive.

It would be a shame if even with 240 F-16s and additional Mirage 2000s, E2 Hawkeyes, Mirages and F-7s, the Egyptians were unable to hurt Israelis in the air and on the ground.

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## nightrider_saulat

blain2 said:


> Depends on pilot training and effective employment, otherwise the Egyptians have the hardware to not only put up a great fight, but also seriously damage Israeli ground offensive.
> 
> It would be a shame if even with 240 F-16s and additional Mirage 2000s, E2 Hawkeyes, Mirages and F-7s, the Egyptians were unable to hurt Israelis in the air and on the ground.



*and also their track records in previous wars doesn't put them in the driving seat*


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## ice_man

with all the latest gadgets i am sorry the egyptians are no match for the israelis! it has been proven gadgets alone don't win you wars! the israeli air defence force is the best trained & highly qualified! and the egyptians will not be able to put up a strong fight it has been proven in the past once the Egyptian airforce in the previous wars left its friendly SAM coverage they got massacred!


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## SBD-3

ice_man said:


> with all the latest gadgets i am sorry the egyptians are no match for the israelis! it has been proven gadgets alone don't win you wars! the israeli air defence force is the best trained & highly qualified! and the egyptians will not be able to put up a strong fight it has been proven in the past once the Egyptian airforce in the previous wars left its friendly SAM coverage they got massacred!



well Israel doesn't consider Egyptians as a threat, honestly. Turks, well there is something not friendly going on between Turks and Israel these days....the relationships are deteriorating. Even Turks use Israeli weaponry...so no real threat from there as well. Saudis and UAE, already "half-Allies".....no threat from there as well. the threat is from.....Palistine, secondly Iran (which i honestly think don't have the capability to challenge IAF in conventional war. Pakistan, well far enough to be a threat....also busy with its own business. So its an open Ground for Zionists all around. Egypt has also shown interest in JF-17. Wangrong once posted that they want 100 fighters manufacturing facility any updates on this?


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## Windjammer

Each and every country has it's own vested interests at heart, until and unless they are directly threatened, they will not even twitch. Attack on Lebanon and the constant Palestinian cleansing are just two examples as how the Muslim World buries it's head in the sand. Perhaps many of you are unaware that early in 80s, when Iraq's nuclear plant was attacked, the Israelis actually flew through Saudi air space to reach their target. The lame excuse put out by the Saudis was that the transmissions (by Israelis) were in Arabic so it was difficult to distinguish.


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## SBD-3

Windjammer said:


> Each and every country has it's own vested interests at heart, until and unless they are directly threatened, they will not even twitch. Attack on Lebanon and the constant Palestinian cleansing are just two examples as how the Muslim World buries it's head in the sand. Perhaps many of you are unaware that early in 80s, when Iraq's nuclear plant was attacked, the Israelis actually flew through Saudi air space to reach their target. The lame excuse put out by the Saudis was that the transmissions (by Israelis) were in Arabic so it was difficult to distinguish.



yes i remember and that too with refuling facility from Saudi Air Bases ( Just in case needed) .....even though there was a lot of buz in the media about the same thing few days ago when a repot surfaced stating that Saudis have given Israel permission to use Saudi Airspace for a possible attack on Iranian Nuke Installations.


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## fatman17

ACM Qamar today indicated that 8 F-16 C/D will be delivered by June 2010. rest by Dec - 2010.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

fatman17 said:


> ACM Qamar today indicated that 8 F-16 C/D will be delivered by June 2010. rest by Dec - 2010.



really? i missed it....


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## M_Saint

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> really? i missed it....


Could anyone please inform whether it would require congress to vote for the selling of AESA and DFRM in future?


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## fatman17

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> really? i missed it....



r we being sarcastic!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

no i was serious. But i already saw news update

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## mean_bird

The delivery dates were published back in 2008. I am surprised that people are surprised when they hear the dates.

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## DANGER-ZONE

PAF F-16D block 52 #10801 spotted on final approach into NAS Fort Worth on November 6th, 2009. 


*no CFT yet!*

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## DANGER-ZONE

few more cool pictures.




and hold your breath for
*and PAFs first f16 MLU*.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

danger-zone said:


> and hold your breath for
> *and PAFs first f16 MLU*.



picture snapped in Kamra or at TAI facility at Ankara?


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## Kompromat

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> picture snapped in Kamra or at TAI facility at Ankara?



To me it looks like Photoshopped because MLU is starting on 24 october 2010 and will complete in 46 months.

Also Vipers are being upgraded to Block 52 standard so Air frame changes would be made(if i am not wrong) and they will look like our newer C/D vipers.

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## Sapper

Black blood said:


> To me it looks like Photoshopped because MLU is starting on 24 october 2010 and will complete in 46 months.
> 
> Also Vipers are being upgraded to Block 52 standard so Air frame changes would be made(if i am not wrong) and they will look like our newer C/D vipers.



FYI, An initial batch of 4 F16s from PAF has been undergoing MLU upgrades/retrofits in USA for the last year or so.

Please Do tell if this picture is a photoshop, otherwise i was having a heart-attack from joy. Please tell me this is not photoshop.

Regards,
Sapper


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## Abu Zolfiqar

1.)

It was MY understanding that they would initially be upgraded in Ankara TAI facilities, with follow-on upgrades @ Kamra facility. On the other hand, some people are saying that initial upgradation would be carried out by Lockheed Martin @ Fort Worth, with follow-up MLU kits to be carried out by TAI.

As far as I know, Pakistan is having "Trial Verification Installation" aircrafts (4 in total) which is part of the MLU program. Pakistan is procuring Falcon STAR structural upgrade kits for the thirty-two original F-16A/B aircraft and thirty-five MLU avionics upgrade kits for the current fleet (including three of the recently transferred EDA aircraft). There is an option on the contract to procure eleven additional MLU avionics upgrade kits for the remaining eleven aircraft. Pakistan has not yet exercised this option, but plans to do so at future date.


(source --> http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/110/wie091608.pdf)



We had 14 F-16 (C block 30?) delivered to Pakistan by US which arrived August 2008. Are they to be included in this MLU deal? I have asked this question many times, nobody could tell me.

2.)

I would also request somebody to ascertain the validity of this picture. 


3.)

on a side note, it is to my knowledge that Turkish Aerospace industries (under license by Lockheed-Martin) performed MLU of 17 (?) Block15 F-16 belonging to Jordanian Air Force. Upgrade/MLU kits and airframe work carried out under license of LM.

What is the "feedback" from them (Jordanians)? Was it an identical MLU package to what PAF is getting???


i.e.


* APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar;
* Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
* AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
* AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
* Have Quick I/II Radios;
* Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT);
* SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
* Reconnaissance pod capability;
* Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (for training);


MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits;

* 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
* 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
* 1 Unit Level Trainer;
* 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.



(apart from initial structural work which entails replacement of structural
components in the F-16 required to return the A/B airframe to a structural life
of 8,000 spectrum hours)




any info would be oh-so-appreciated


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## SBD-3

danger-zone said:


> PAF F-16D block 52 #10801 spotted on final approach into NAS Fort Worth on November 6th, 2009.
> 
> 
> *no CFT yet!*



look closely.....behind the second pilot the risen surface is CFT baby


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## Sapper

hasnain0099 said:


> look closely.....behind the second pilot the risen surface is CFT baby



No dear , that is NOT the CFT, that is extended dorsal spine which was previously optionally introduced only for Israely F16-Blk52s D models, but has now become standard feature for all new F16-Blk52s.

Regards,
Sapper

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## SBD-3

Egypt deal extends F-16 line into 2013
By Stephen Trimble

Lockheed Martin has secured a key order as it seeks to extend F-16 production long enough to stay in the competition for a massive order by the Indian air force.

An agreement between the governments of Egypt and the USA on the sale of 20 F-16 Block 50/52s will likely extend production into 2013.

Lockheed confirms the agreement under the foreign military sale (FMS) process was signed on 24 December. The US government is likely to sign a contract with Lockheed shortly to build the F-16s.

Egypt's current inventory of about 220 F-16s is mostly powered by General Electric F110 engines. But a notice published by the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) in October indicates Egypt is considering both the Block 50's F110-129 and the Block 52's Pratt & Whitney F100-229.


© US Air Force
An Egyptian air force F-16C flies in formation with a US Air Force KC-135 tanker

The DSCA notice, which informed Congress of the potential sale, indicated Egypt could order as many as 24 F-16s. However, a Lockheed executive in November told Flightglobal.com the deal would be for only 20.

The sale also could include conformal fuel tanks, advanced targeting pods made by Lockheed or Northrop Grumman, the Northrop APG-68(V)9 radar and ITT ALQ-211 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare systems (AIDEWS).

The pending contract from Egypt adds to a recent spike in F-16 sales after a two-year slowdown. Lockheed plans to deliver only 20 F-16s in 2010 and 2011, but as many as 40 in 2012. Deliveries in 2012 will include 24 signed by Morocco in early December, the remainder of Turkey's order for 30 and a portion of Egypt's backlog.

Lockheed executives have also noted that smaller orders for F-16s are in discussions with Greece, Iraq, Oman and Qatar.

But the long-term future of Lockheed's F-16 production line depends on India's competition for the medium multi-role combat aircraft contract for at least 126 fighters. Lockheed has proposed the F-16IN, a version similar to the United Arab Emirates' Block 60.


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## SBD-3

Lockheed receives F-16 contract for Morocco
By Stephen Trimble

Lockheed Martin has been awarded a nearly $841.9 million contract by the US government to deliver 24 F-16 Block 52 fighters under a previously announced deal with Morocco.

The US Air Force is processing the contract on behalf of Morocco within the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) process.

The amount of the contract award shows that Morocco is paying $35 million per F-16 Block 52, which includes advanced countermeasures, electronic warfare and support equipment.

It is not clear if the award also includes the Pratt & Whitney F100-229 engines or air-launched weapons. According to a press release in 2007 by the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, the full value of the deal could rise to $2.4 billion.

Lockheed won the contract in 2007 after a presumed deal for the Dassault Rafale fell apart reportedly over conflicting messages between the French government and the manufacturer.


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## Barrett

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> 1.)
> We had 14 F-16 (C block 30?) delivered to Pakistan by US which arrived August 2008. Are they to be included in this MLU deal? I have asked this question many times, nobody could tell me.



Out of the 14 birds we have received 12 so far under EDA and will receive 2 more in 2011 after it undergoes MLU.
Now all the F-16's in our inventory will undergo MLU other then the new block 52s.

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/by-date/2008/071608&#37;20US_Delivers_EDA_Jets_to_Pakistan.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/f-16.htm

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## Abu Zolfiqar

my man! thanks for the update


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## fatman17

Black blood said:


> To me it looks like Photoshopped because MLU is starting on 24 october 2010 and will complete in 46 months.
> 
> Also Vipers are being upgraded to Block 52 standard so Air frame changes would be made(if i am not wrong) and they will look like our newer C/D vipers.



4 birds are at HillAFB, Utah undergoing what is called a 'pattern' MLU. then the MLU for the rest of the birds will start in oct-2010 following the 'pattern' MLUed F-16s. so the above pic could be real!!!

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## fatman17

all F-16A/Bs will be upgraded to the European MLU standard.


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## Barrett

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> my man! thanks for the update



Most Welcome.


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## DANGER-ZONE

[/QUOTE]

sorry guyes,its photo shoped.i find it out later.
n SAPPER plz don die,controll ur hart


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## DANGER-ZONE

Sapper said:


> No dear , that is NOT the CFT, that is extended dorsal spine which was previously optionally introduced only for Israely F16-Blk52s D models, but has now become standard feature for all new F16-Blk52s.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper



what is the purpose of extended drosal.?


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## Kompromat

Sapper said:


> No dear , that is NOT the CFT, that is extended dorsal spine which was previously optionally introduced only for Israely F16-Blk52s D models, but has now become standard feature for all new F16-Blk52s.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper



You forgot to tell him what are CFT's , here in the picture attached with the extended dorsal spine.
CFT's can be removed if needed and then put back on , PAF has ordered CFT's for Block 52.


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## Kompromat

danger-zone said:


> what is the purpose of extended drosal.?



Ariel refueling i suppose.


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## SBD-3

Black blood said:


> Ariel refueling i suppose.



but does israel have aerial refueling capability


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## Stealth

look of old F16 really SEXY as compare to BLK 52


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## SBD-3

Stealth said:


> look of old F16 really SEXY as compare to BLK 52



But i guess planes are for **s kicki'n than for Catwalk

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## SBD-3

Turkey Buys Better Eyes
January 9, 2010: Turkey is buying fifty Sniper ATP and LANTRIN ER pods for its 240 F-16s. Not all the F-16s need these ground attack and reconnaissance pods at once, as most of Turkey's F-16s are used for air superiority missions. 
These pods, costing about $2 million each, contain FLIR (video quality night vision infrared radar) and TV cameras that enable pilots flying at 6,000 meters (20,000 feet) to clearly make out what is going on down there. The pods also contain laser designators for laser guided bombs, and laser range finders that enable pilots to get coordinates for JDAM (GPS guided) bombs. Safely outside the range of most anti-aircraft fire (five kilometers up, and up to fifty kilometers away), pilots can literally see the progress of ground fighting, and have even been acting as aerial observers for ground forces. These capabilities also enable pilots to more easily find targets themselves, and hit them with highly accurate laser guided or JDAM bombs. While bombers still get target information from ground controllers for close (to friendly troops) air support, they can now go searching on their own, in areas where there are no friendly ground troops.


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## Kompromat

hasnain0099 said:


> but does israel have aerial refueling capability



YES.

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## nightrider_saulat

Black blood said:


> You forgot to tell him what are CFT's , here in the picture attached with the extended dorsal spine.
> CFT's can be removed if needed and then put back on , PAF has ordered CFT's for Block 52.



*these CFTs will add a real beauty on our falcons*

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## TOPGUN

Can wait for out beauties to come and have cft 's on them wat a pic


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## Abu Zolfiqar

PAF also ordered Lockheed Martin Advanced Sniper Targetting Pods


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## Stealth

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> PAF also ordered Lockheed Martin Advanced Sniper Targetting Pods




*
After understand PAKISTAN AND US SUPER DUPER RELATION hamko Sniper pod ye milni hey with our new F16*












*PS: Our F16 coming without Hardpoints we are not even able to fire any single missile or bomb because US said "Pakistan only purchased F16. Pakistan was not asked for F16 with Missile technology or bomb technology so we made dummy F16 for our BEST Alley PAKISTAN. Pakistan F16 only for takeoff landing thats it not able to fire anything. According to US If Pakistan want Missile + bomb technology along with F16 Pakistan will pay more lol*

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## Kompromat




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## Kompromat

nightrider_saulat said:


> *these CFTs will add a real beauty on our falcons*



Guys what is wrong with us , i think we love these vipers Tooo much!!! & if we would have been the one to produce it i am sure at least 3k vipers would have been flying


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## Stealth

Black blood said:


> Guys what is wrong with us , i think we love these vipers Tooo much!!! & if we would have been the one to produce it i am sure at least 3k vipers would have been flying



Dear if we are able to make this Aircraft today we have more than 800 + Most Advance F16 in our fleet. From childhood skooling we even not able to learn properly english Urdu our teacher and seniors tel us about 

"PAKISTAN IS INDEPENDENT STATE" "1947"
"INDIA IS OUR ENEMY"
" WE HAVE AIRFORCE AND ARMY (mostly)"
"AND F16 IS OUR FIGHTER JET"

So technically Pakistanis are crazy about F16 because since childhood very first lesson what we learn is "F16 IS OUR FIGHTER JET".  Actualy is in our blood 

I dont know about Today but i am pretty sure now adays teachers teach our childrens that 

"PAKISTAN HAVE NUCLEAR MISSILE"

lol even they (Childrens) dont know what is actualy Nuclear missile lol


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Stealth said:


>



 



> *PS: Our F16 coming without Hardpoints we are not even able to fire any single missile or bomb because US said "Pakistan only purchased F16. Pakistan was not asked for F16 with Missile technology or bomb technology so we made dummy F16 for our BEST Alley PAKISTAN. Pakistan F16 only for takeoff landing thats it not able to fire anything. According to US If Pakistan want Missile + bomb technology along with F16 Pakistan will pay more lol*




I was under impression we would just use tamil tiger approach.....open the "hatch", pull the pin aur haat sai toss the frag grenades below


Me personally....I would suggest twine rather than rubber-band application used to support Sniper system. Twine meets PAF standards, and can be produced indigenously @ Sialkot.

I already sent a memo to Air Marshal Sahib.


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## Stealth

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I was under impression we would just use tamil tiger approach.....open the "hatch", pull the pin aur haat sai toss the frag grenades below
> 
> 
> Me personally....I would suggest twine rather than rubber-band application used to support Sniper system. Twine meets PAF standards, and can be produced indigenously @ Sialkot.
> 
> I already sent a memo to Air Marshal Sahib.



Dear Add my suggestion also:

Kindly use Pakistan's rubber band for attaching Sniper pod because China's rubber band not reliable. 


PAKISTAN F16 with CFT and Sniper pod 


_I L_____
=_____(cng)____>

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## Abu Zolfiqar

> The U.S. government has awarded a contract to Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] for 18 Sniper® Advanced Targeting Pods (ATP), a part of the new Advanced Block 52 F-16 aircraft program for Pakistan. Pakistan is the eighth international customer to join the U.S. Air Force and Air National Guard flying with Sniper ATP. The contract includes spares and training services. Terms of the contract were not disclosed.
> 
> This sale culminates a two year combined effort by Lockheed Martins Missiles and Fire Control and Aeronautics businesses to upgrade the precision attack capability of one of our key allies, said Ken Fuhr, director of Fixed Wing Targeting Programs at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. Sniper continues to demonstrate exceptional performance in meeting the requirements and expectations of the Warfighter.
> 
> With deliveries [having begun] in 2008, the Pakistan Air Force will benefit from Sniper ATPs exceptional stability and superior imagery, allowing aircrews to perform intelligence, targeting, surveillance and reconnaissance missions from extended standoff ranges.
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force joins the U.K. Ministry of Defence; the Canadian Forces, the Royal Norwegian Air Force; the Polish Air and Air Defense Force; the Royal Air Force of Oman; the Belgium Defence; and other international customers with its selection of the Sniper ATP.
> 
> Sniper ATP is currently flying on the U.S. Air Force and multinational F-15s, F-16s, F-18s, A-10s, B-1s and the Harrier GR9. Sniper ATPs have accumulated tens of thousands of flight hours in thousands of sorties in support of Operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom.
> 
> Sniper incorporates a high-resolution, mid-wave third-generation forward-looking infrared (FLIR), a dual-mode laser permitting eye-safe operation in urban environments, a CCD-TV along with a laser spot tracker and a laser marker. Sniper is fully compatible with the latest J-series munitions and precision-guided weaponry. Its superior detection ranges are vital to pilots, helping keep them out of range of threat air defenses.
> 
> Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin employs about 140,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products and services.



Pakistan Selects Lockheed Martin's Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod



> About Sniper ATP
> 
> Sniper XR / ATP - Advanced Targeting Pod
> 
> Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control's Sniper XR (eXtended Range) is the US Air Force's Advanced Targeting Pod. Incorporating a 3rd generation targeting FLIR, Sniper XR's common aperture and exceptional stabilization result in superior image quality. Flown supersonically in USAF flight evaluations at Edwards AFB, Sniper XR allows pilots to identify tactical targets at greatly improved standoff ranges over current targeting systems. The modular, two-level maintenance design ensures the lowest life cycle costs.
> 
> The ATP pod should have a geopointing capability 10 times more accurate than the LANTIRN with triple the recognition range and twice the resolution. The ATP can acquire targets at altitudes of up to 50,000 feet, versus the 25,000 feet typical of the LANTIRN pod. Substantial advances in the reliability and maintainability should also occur. The ATP features both laser target designation, and the ability to generate ground target position data that can provide an input to Global Positioning System guided munitions, such as JDAM.
> 
> Sniper XR is designed for current and future fighter aircraft. Incorporating a high-resolution, mid-wave 3rd generation FLIR, a dual-mode laser and a CCD-TV along with a laser spot tracker and a laser marker, Sniper vastly improves target detection/identification. The advanced image processing algorithms, combined with rock-steady stabilization techniques, deliver three times the performance of the best systems in service today. Fully compatible with the latest standoff weaponry, Sniper provides automatic tracking and laser designation of tactical size targets via real-time imagery presented on cockpit displays. Likewise, the supersonic, low-observable design results in a substantial reduction in drag and weight.
> 
> Fully capable of being embedded or podded, Sniper technology is incorporated into Lockheed Martins Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) design. The JSF Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) is highly common with Sniper.
> 
> The Advanced Targeting Pod Program is an acquisition program to put targeting pods on the US F-16CJ Block 50 aircraft and also serve as a possible replacement for the LANTIRN target pods on F-15Es and F-16 Block 40 aircraft if approved and funding becomes available. The HTS R7 / TGP combination provides potential to find, pinpoint, and destroy mobile SAMs, giving the F-16CJs a true multi-role capability to support EAF operations. The program objective is to provide a Precision Attack Targeting System for the USAF F-16CJ, ANG F-16, and F-15E aircraft, (with an A-10 MSIP & F-16 Block 40 M4 objective). For the F-15E portion, offerors will be required to identify the tasks and activities necessary to qualify the pod on the F-15E. The A-10 is the other objective aircraft, though currently an initiative has not been undertaken to include ATP on the A-10. ATP will enhance and maintain the USAF strike mission lethality with an advanced targeting pod system enabling Destruction of Enemy Air Defense (DEAD) missions.
> 
> The overall purpose of the Advanced Targeting Pod (ATP) Program is to Competitively Acquire a Best Estimated Quantity (BEQ) of 168 targeting pods, support equipment, interim contractor support, contractor logistics support, retrofit kits and data over a seven year period. The initial acquisition supports USAF F-16 Block 50/52 and ANG F-16 Block 25/30/32 aircraft. This acquisition is required for ACC and the ANG to accomplish the Destruction of Enemy Air Defenses (DEAD) mission (as directed by CSAF Direction.) Although currently categorized as an ACAT Level III program, a potential exists that the program could proceed to ACAT Level II -- for the ORD also states an objective requirement to replace the LANTIRN targeting pod on the F-15E and F-16 Block 40 aircraft.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Stealth said:


> Kindly made Pakistan rubber band for attaching Sniper pod because China's rubber band not reliable.



we made contact with Quality Assurance department. Until revisions are made, we will use Sialkoty twine. 





> PAKISTAN F16 with CFT and Sniper pod



for CFT we should use rubber band. Would absorb lateral and longitudinal g-forces.

Lockheed Martin also designed special CNG kit for F-16. A bio-diesel kit would be available 22 months from now.


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://





what a idiotic statement F 16 is one of the most Sucessful fighter jet ever produce in history of mankind it has seen al the wars from the cold war to iraq war in 1990 iraq war 2003 afghan war used against talibans used in cold conditions of alaska used against taliban but not yest got killed by enemy too easy and we have to be proud that we have this F 16 with us and more are coming F 16 is PAF favoutite fighter jet.


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://






MUST SEE THE HISTORY OF F 16 NO LOOSE RECORDED IN DESERT STORM WAR TRUELY THEIR IS NO MATCH FOR F 16 U NAME IT F 16 WILL PERFOM FOR U.


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## karan.1970

Stealth said:


> *
> After understand PAKISTAN AND US SUPER DUPER RELATION hamko Sniper pod ye milni hey with our new F16*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *PS: Our F16 coming without Hardpoints we are not even able to fire any single missile or bomb because US said "Pakistan only purchased F16. Pakistan was not asked for F16 with Missile technology or bomb technology so we made dummy F16 for our BEST Alley PAKISTAN. Pakistan F16 only for takeoff landing thats it not able to fire anything. According to US If Pakistan want Missile + bomb technology along with F16 Pakistan will pay more lol*



Hilarious .. Man! you are good


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://

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## Super Falcon

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## Super Falcon

The Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, the first of the US Air Force multi-role fighter aircraft, is the world's most prolific fighter with more than 2,000 in service with the USAF and 2,000 operational with 25 other countries.

The F-16 and the F-15 Eagle were the world's first aircraft able to withstand higher g-forces than the pilots. The Fighting Falcon entered service in 1979. The last of 2,231 F-16 fighters for the US Air Force was delivered in March 2005. The first two-seat F-16D version was accepted by the US Government in January 2009.

Outside the US, Lockheed Martin had a backlog of around 95 F-16 aircraft during the first quarter of 2009.

Recent orders include Bahrain (ten delivered), Greece (60 block 52 all delivered), Israel (50), Egypt (24 block 40), New Zealand (28), United Arab Emirates (80 block 60, first delivered 2005), Singapore (20), South Korea (20 block 52 all delivered), Oman (12, first delivered August 2005), Chile (ten block 50, first delivery 2006) and Poland (48 block 52, delivered March 2006 &#8211; December 2008).

"The F-16 Fighting Falcon is the world's most prolific fighter."Israel, with the world's largest F-16 fleet outside the USAF, has ordered 110 F-16I aircraft, of which the first was delivered in December 2003. These aircraft have Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engines, Elbit avionics, Elisra electronic warfare systems and Rafael weapons and sensors, including Litening II laser target designator pods. Italy has leased 34 aircraft until the first tranche of Eurofighter deliveries are completed. Hungary will acquire 24 ex-USAF fighters.

In December 2005, Greece ordered a further 30 block 52+ fighters (20 F-16C single seat and 10 F-16D two-seat) to be delivered from 2009. Under the Peace Xenia IV purchase programme, the total number of fighters ordered by Greece's HAF(Hellenic Air Force) rose to 170. The first Peace Xenia IV F-16 block 52 advanced aircraft was delivered on 19 March 2009. The remaining will be delivered in 2009 and 2010.

In June 2005, Pakistan requested the foreign military sale (FMS) of 36 F-16C/D block 50/52 aircraft. In June 2006, the Pentagon notified congress of its intention to agree the sale and Lockheed Martin was awarded a contract for 12 F-16C and six F-16D block 52 aircraft in December 2006. The aircraft will be armed with AMRAAM and Sidewinder missiles and the Sniper targeting pod. The planned order of the second 18 aircraft has been cancelled.

In September 2006, Turkey requested the sale of an additional 30 advanced block 50 F-16 aircraft. The order was signed in May 2007. The aircraft will be delivered in 2011 and 2012. The total cost of these additional aircraft could be more than $2.9bn excluding Turkey's $1.1bn upgrade programme for its existing F-16 fleet. 

In June 2007, Taiwan requested 66 F-16C/D aircraft but the US government has indicated that approval is unlikely to be granted before 2009.

In December 2007, Morocco requested the sale of 24 F-16C/D block 50/52 aircraft. The deal includes the aircraft, mission equipment and a support package provided by Lockheed Martin and other US and international contractors. The Royal Moroccan Air Force (RMAF) placed a $233.6m order in June 2008.

The F-16IN Super Viper, which is a development of block 60, has been designed for the Indian Air force. It is a fourth-generation fighter that meets the medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) requirements. It includes Northrop Grumman APG-80 AESA radar and General Electric F110-132A engine with 32,000lb thrust.

Various F-16 upgrade and modernisation programmes are underway in Turkey, Pakistan and Jordan, and within the US Air Force. Future upgrades include air refuelling probes, auxiliary power unitu, auto ground collision avoidance systems and automatic manoeuvring attack.

F-16 common configuration implementation programme (CCIP)
650 USAF block 40/50 F-16s are being upgraded under the common configuration implementation programme (CCIP). The first phase of the programme (first aircraft completed in January 2002) provides core computer and colour cockpit modifications.

The second, which began in September 2002, involves fitting the advanced AN/APX-113 interrogator / transponder and Lockheed Martin Sniper XR advanced FLIR targeting pod.

The third, which started in July 2003, adds Link 16 datalink, the Boeing joint helmet-mounted cueing system and an electronic horizontal situation indicator. Operational testing of the M3 upgraded fighters was completed in September 2004. Deliveries are planned to complete in 2010.

"Israel has the largest F-16 fleet outside the USAF."A216 block 40/50 F-16 aircraft of the Turkish Air Force are to be upgraded with elements of the CCIP, under an agreement reached in April 2005. Lockheed Martin was awarded the contract to supply the modernisation kits in December 2006. The upgrade is scheduled for completion in 2016.

The export version of the Sniper XR pod, the PANTERA, has been ordered by the Royal Norwegian Air Force. The first was delivered in November 2003.

Block 50/52 is the eighth major modification block of the F-16 that incorporates colour cockpit displays, new electronic warfare suite, advanced weapons and sensors and more powerful engines.

Block 60 upgrade
The block 60 F-16E/F, which is being developed for the United Arab Emirates, features extra payload and range, in part due to the new F110-132 engine being developed by General Electric, which produces 145kN of thrust.

New avionics for the block 60 includes a higher-speed mission computer, a new display processor, three large colour LCD displays, advanced data transfer unit with a fibre-optic data transfer network. Precision targeting is achieved by the Northrop Grumman integrated navigation FLIR and targeting FLIR system using mid-wave infrared arrays and Northrop Grumman's APG-80 agile beam active electronically scanned (AESA) radar.

Northrop Grumman is providing the integrated electronic warfare suite. First flight of the block 60 aircraft took place in December 2003. Deliveries of 80 block 60 aircraft to the UAE began in May 2005 and are scheduled to conclude by 2009.

Cockpit

Advanced equipment being fitted on the current build of the F-16 includes Honeywell colour flat-panel liquid crystal multifunction displays, digital terrain system, modular mission computer, colour video camera to record the pilot's view of the head-up display (HUD), a colour triple-deck video recorder and an enhanced programmable display generator.

Under the USAF project Sure Strike, the F-16 is being equipped with an improved data modem (IDM), which automatically provides target data to the HUD using data transmitted by a ground observer.

The seat-back angle of the aircraft has been increased from 13&#176; to 30&#176; to provide increased comfort for the pilot.

"USAF F-16 aircraft are scheduled to receive the Boeing joint helmet-mounted cueing system (JHMCS)."A follow-on programme, project Gold Strike, integrates an upgraded IDM for the transmission of images to and from a range of sources, including ground units and unmanned aircraft. The system can transmit images from the LANTIRN targeting pod and display video imagery to the cockpit.

USAF F-16 aircraft are scheduled to receive the Boeing joint helmet-mounted cueing system (JHMCS), currently in full-rate production. Deliveries of production systems began in 2004, although the system has been deployed operationally during Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Weapons

The aircraft has nine hardpoints for weapons payloads: one at each wing tip, three under each wing and one centreline under the fuselage. The ordnance is launched from Raytheon LAU-88 launchers, MAU-12 and Orgen bomb ejector racks. The port wing is fitted with a 20mm General Electric M61A1 multi-barrel cannon and the gunsight is interfaced to the cockpit HUD. 

Air-to-air missiles which have been carried on the F-16 include the Lockheed Martin / Raytheon AIM-9 Sidewinder, Raytheon AMRAAM, Raytheon Sparrow, MBDA (formerly Matra BAe Dynamics) Skyflash and ASRAAM, and the MBDA R550 Magic 2. In April 2004, the F-16 first fired the new-generation AIM-9X Sidewinder, which is in full-rate production for the USAF.

Air-to-surface missiles carried on the F-16 include Maverick, HARM and Shrike missiles, manufactured by Raytheon, and anti-ship missiles include Boeing Harpoon and Kongsberg Penguin. Flight tests with the Lockheed Martin joint air-to-surface stand-off missile (JASSM) are being conducted from the F-16.

The first guided launch of the new joint direct attack munition (JDAM) was successfully carried out from an F-16. The F-16 was the first USAF aircraft to be fitted with the joint stand-off weapon (JSOW) in April 2000.

The F-16 can be fitted with Lockheed Martin wind-corrected munitions dispenser (WCMD), which provides precision guidance for CBU-87, -89, and 97 cluster munitions. The system corrects for launch transients, ballistic errors, and winds aloft. 

The F-16 will be the first aircraft to use the USAF's new weapon rack, the Edo Corporation BRU-57. The BRU-57 is a vertical ejection rack which doubles the aircraft's capacity for precision-guided weapons like JDAM and WCMD.

All-weather stand-off weapons such as the AGM-84E stand-off land-attack missile (SLAM) and the AGM-142 Popeye II are planned to be included in future upgrades to the aircraft. Other advanced weapons include MICA, IRIS-T, Python IV, Active Skyflash air-to-air missile, ALARM antiradiation missile, Apache multimission stand-off weapon, autonomous free-flight dispenser system and AS30L laser-guided missile. 

Targeting

The F-16 carries the Lockheed Martin LANTIRN infrared navigation and targeting system. This is used in conjunction with a BAE Systems holographic display. Block 50/52 aircraft are equipped with the HARM Targeting System, AN/ASQ-213 from Raytheon.

US Air National Guard F-16 aircraft are fitted with Northrop Grumman Litening II / Litening ER targeting pods.

"Air-to-surface missiles carried on the F-16 Fighting Falcon include Maverick, HARM and Shrike missiles."In August 2001, Lockheed Martin was selected to provide the Sniper XR as the new advanced targeting pod for USAF F-16 and F-15E aircraft.

Sniper XR (extended range) incorporates a high-resolution mid-wave FLIR, dual-mode laser, CCD TV, laser spot tracker and laser marker combined with advanced image processing algorithms. Deliveries began in March 2003.

F-16 fighters for Oman will be equipped with BAE Systems advanced airborne reconnaissance system. Those for Poland and Morocco will be equipped with the Goodrich DB-110 reconnaissance pod.

Countermeasures

Current block 50 F-16 aircraft for the USA are equipped with the Lockheed Martin superheterodyne AN/ALR-56M radar warning receiver. The F-16 is also compatible with a range of jammers and electronic countermeasures equipment, including Northrop Grumman AN/ALQ-131, Raytheon AN/ALQ-184, Elisra SPS 3000 and Elta EL/L-8240, and the Northrop Grumman ALQ-165 self-protection suite.

Lockheed Martin ALE-40 and ALE-47 chaff and infrared flare dispenser systems are installed in an internal flush mount. ALE-40 is pilot-controlled but the ALE-47 installed in block 50 can be operated in fully, semi-automatic or manual mode.

F-16s for the Greek Air Force are being fitted with the Raytheon advanced self-protection integrated suite (ASPIS) II which includes Northrop Grumman ALR-93(V) threat warning system, Raytheon ALQ-187 jammer and BAE Systems ALE-47 chaff / flare dispenser.

F-16s for Chile and Pakistan are fitted with the ITT AN/ALQ-211 (V) 4 electronic warfare suite.

Radar

The Northrop Grumman AN/APG-68 radar provides 25 separate air-to-air and air-to-ground modes, including long-range, all-aspect detection and tracking, simultaneous multiple-target tracking, and high-resolution ground mapping. The planar antenna array is installed in the nose of the aircraft.

An upgraded version of the radar, AN/APG-68(V)9, has begun flight testing. The upgrade features: 30&#37; increase in detection range, five times increase in processing speed, ten times increase in memory, as well as significant improvements in all modes, jam resistance and false alarm rate.

Navigation and communications

The F-16 was the first operational US aircraft to receive a global positioning system (GPS). The aircraft has an inertial navigation system, either a Northrop Grumman (Litton) LN-39, LN-93 ring laser gyroscope or Honeywell H-423.

"The F-16 Fighting Falcon carries the Lockheed Martin LANTIRN infrared navigation and targeting system."Other navigation equipment includes a BAE Systems Terprom digital terrain navigation system, Gould AN/APN-232 radar altimeter, Rockwell Collins AN/ARN-118 tactical air navigation system (TACAN) and Rockwell Collins AN/ARN-108 instrument landing system.

The communications systems include the Raytheon UHF AN/ARC-164 receiver / transmitter and Rockwell Collins VHF AM/FM AN/ARC-186 together with AN/APX101 identification friend or foe (IFF) and encryption / secure communications systems. The AN/APX-101 is being upgraded with BAE Systems AN/APX-113.

Engine

The aircraft is powered by a single engine: the General Electric F110-GE-129 or Pratt and Whitney F100-PW-229. The fuel supply is equipped with an inert gas anti-fire system. An inflight refuelling probe is installed in the top of the fuselage.

Lockheed Martin has completed developmental flight testing on new conformal fuel tanks (CFT) for the F-16, which will significantly add to the aircraft's mission radius. First flight of the F-16 equipped with the new tanks was in March 2003. Greece is the launch customer for the CFT.

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## TOPGUN

So from reading from this article it states > * The planned order of the second 18 aircraft has been cancelled * if this article is true then there will be no more f-16's after the 18 we are getting !


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## TaimiKhan

TOPGUN said:


> So from reading from this article it states > * The planned order of the second 18 aircraft has been cancelled * if this article is true then there will be no more f-16's after the 18 we are getting !



It seems that way, we had an option for 18 more, but so far we have not ordered them, meaning its canceled. Because if we do order it now, it will again take 4-6 years for the delivery time period, which we can't afford. I believe in 2005 Pakistan had excused from ordering more F-16s on the pretext of Earthquake, as money would be needed there. But in reality PAF wanted to invest that money somewhere else.

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## TaimiKhan

TOPGUN said:


> So from reading from this article it states > * The planned order of the second 18 aircraft has been cancelled * if this article is true then there will be no more f-16's after the 18 we are getting !



It seems that way, we had an option for 18 more, but so far we have not ordered them, meaning its canceled. Because if we do order it now, it will again take 4-6 years for the delivery time period, which we can't afford. I believe in 2005 Pakistan had excused from ordering more F-16s on the pretext of Earthquake, as money would be needed there. But in reality PAF wanted to invest that money somewhere else.


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## Luftwaffe

So from reading from this article it states > * The planned order of the second 18 aircraft has been cancelled * if this article is true then there will be no more f-16's after the 18 we are getting ! 

Perhaps its best to invest in J-10B for 1 f-16's we can get 2 J-10B : ) @TOPGUN


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## Windjammer



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## Abu Zolfiqar

TOPGUN said:


> So from reading from this article it states > * The planned order of the second 18 aircraft has been cancelled * if this article is true then there will be no more f-16's after the 18 we are getting !



it says the planned order of the 2nd 18 aircrafts

i.e. initial order was 36. It was later placed at 18.

first batch are being realized.......2nd batch will not be delivered, even though we still have the option open for later time (many "ifs" involved)


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## Abu Zolfiqar

taimikhan said:


> It seems that way, we had an option for 18 more, but so far we have not ordered them, meaning its canceled. Because if we do order it now, it will again take 4-6 years for the delivery time period, which we can't afford. I believe in 2005 Pakistan had excused from ordering more F-16s on the pretext of Earthquake, as money would be needed there. But in reality PAF wanted to invest that money somewhere else.



it was roughly around same time that PAF was inking deal with China for J-10/FC-20


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## MastanKhan

taimikhan said:


> It seems that way, we had an option for 18 more, but so far we have not ordered them, meaning its canceled. Because if we do order it now, it will again take 4-6 years for the delivery time period, which we can't afford. I believe in 2005 Pakistan had excused from ordering more F-16s on the pretext of Earthquake, as money would be needed there. But in reality PAF wanted to invest that money somewhere else.



Hi,

In 2005 the cancellation was indeed due to the earthquake and previous to that the PAF had concluded that the threat level from india had receded---later, it was due to hostilties with india that paf decided to go after more aircraft.


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## TaimiKhan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In 2005 the cancellation was indeed due to the earthquake and previous to that the PAF had concluded that the threat level from india had receded---later, it was due to hostilties with india that paf decided to go after more aircraft.



Sir, for earthquake, there was enough money pledged by International donors and we did have too. And how can threat from India have receded ??? We can't hold them with such little airforce, the threat from India is ever green and even 100 new Blk 52s are less for them. 

And which more aircraft are you talking about that we went after ??


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## Stealth

This time Pakistan Airforce thinktanks play really superb game.. Why we pay 36 aircraft money first we will see if our 18+ Aircraft deliver in deal "Time frame" we will go for further 18 otherwise we will cancel our rest 18 deal and go for other platform... good work PAF!!


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## Stealth

lol in 10 - 12 years we will get 18 + 18 F16 BLK 50/52 and india will get 126 Aircraft in just 5 years hahahha ... i dont think PAF officials are stupid... its better to cancel this deal... and go for Rafale....

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## nightrider_saulat

Stealth said:


> lol in 10 - 12 years we will get 18 + 18 F16 BLK 50/52 and india will get 126 Aircraft in just 5 years hahahha ... i dont think PAF officials are stupid... its better to cancel this deal... and go for Rafale....



*rafale ke paise tumhare abbo denge kya
i think only J-10B is the existable alternative for the purchase of F-16block 52*


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## TOPGUN

Stealth said:


> lol in 10 - 12 years we will get 18 + 18 F16 BLK 50/52 and india will get 126 Aircraft in just 5 years hahahha ... i dont think PAF officials are stupid... its better to cancel this deal... and go for Rafale....



True but bro wat makes you think PAF will go for rafales? and do you think we have the funds for that boss?


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## araz

nightrider_saulat said:


> *rafale ke paise tumhare abbo denge kya
> i think only J-10B is the existable alternative for the purchase of F-16block 52*



Nightrider. please maintain the decorum of this forum . If you want to engage in debate, do so, but personal comments like the ones that you have used in the first line lead to arguments. I have reported your post , and the next time i see a uiseless post from you I will ask for you to have some time out!!. One liners do not add to debates. Please give reasons for your argument.
WaSalam
Araz

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## Imran Khan

nightrider_saulat said:


> *rafale ke paise tumhare abbo denge kya
> i think only J-10B is the existable alternative for the purchase of F-16block 52*



yaar abu ko beach main mat lao.stealth bhi bhut gali galoch janta hai dekh ker haan.

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## araz

Stealth said:


> lol in 10 - 12 years we will get 18 + 18 F16 BLK 50/52 and india will get 126 Aircraft in just 5 years hahahha ... i dont think PAF officials are stupid... its better to cancel this deal... and go for Rafale....



Stealth
I know you have some reservations about the F16s and especially US. However, if you look at the number of F16s on order, do you see something significant? PAF and Pakistan in its current financial state cannot buy, maintain and run a fleet of fighters like the rafale. Secondly what advantage will the rafale give you that a developed FC20 will not give you? And why do think will the french be anymore generous to you than the Americans,since you will ask them for a loan you may well not be able to pay.
I think you have to look at the bigger picture and the painting on the wall is that we will continue to indegenize and incorporate tech only rather than expensive fighters. In this light it makes sense to buy f16s in small numbers especially in the light of the missiles and other goodies that you get with them. The latter may well be more important than the planes themselves. Our position with regards to Indian acquisitions needs to also be understood. We will never mount an agressive campaign against anyone and most of our war will be defensive. if that is the case, then all that we need is credible deterrent rather than matching them number for number, which will not be possible.
regards
Araz

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## Myth_buster_1

Stealth said:


> lol in 10 - 12 years we will get 18 + 18 F16 BLK 50/52 and india will get 126 Aircraft in just 5 years hahahha ... i dont think PAF officials are stupid... its better to cancel this deal... and go for Rafale....



The time frame is absolutely wrong. 18 F-16s will reach pakistan by the end of 2011 and if Pakistan does execute option for 18 more then all 36 will be here in pak by the end of 2013. Mark my words IAF MRCA tender will be stretched to atleast another year or even couple of more years, then it will take about a year to finalize the configuration. Production line will be installed in India which could take couple of years. then only by 2016-17 or so the first batch of the MRCA will be handed over to IAF. Indians can play fanboys as much they want but i am just being realistic.

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## Super Falcon

nightrider_saulat said:


> *rafale ke paise tumhare abbo denge kya
> i think only J-10B is the existable alternative for the purchase of F-16block 52*




Nightrider kindly watch ur words he is our most respected member u should respect him he have contributed for the forum next time when u reply kindly watch whom u r messing with stealth is like us and we are like stealth if any one say anything to you and stealth it like he said to me and insulted the forum i will not going to forgive next time watch ur words.


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## Super Falcon

Imran and stealth are brothers too me anyone here messing with them first come and mess with me they are my family and u too if u can be like them

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## Super Falcon

Stealth Kindly on my request forgive him forgiving is a better option.


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## nightrider_saulat

Super Falcon said:


> Imran and stealth are brothers too me anyone here messing with them first come and mess with me they are my family and u too if u can be like them





Super Falcon said:


> Nightrider kindly watch ur words he is our most respected member u should respect him he have contributed for the forum next time when u reply kindly watch whom u r messing with stealth is like us and we are like stealth if any one say anything to you and stealth it like he said to me and insulted the forum i will not going to forgive next time watch ur words.


*i have no interest in becoming your family member*


araz said:


> Nightrider. please maintain the decorum of this forum . If you want to engage in debate, do so, but personal comments like the ones that you have used in the first line lead to arguments. I have reported your post , and the next time i see a uiseless post from you I will ask for you to have some time out!!. One liners do not add to debates. Please give reasons for your argument.
> WaSalam
> Araz



*sir i just tried to shared my sense of humor.....i thought i would bring some comic in the environment
please understand it in that way............*


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## nightrider_saulat

*if PAF has to drop 18 order of furthar F-16 sales then i think they should go for J-10
BEcause at the current available it is the best option 
because all three fighters from europe (JAS gripen,rafale and eurofighter 2000) would turn out to be too costly for the air force.....
a 100 million $ jet would turn out to be too costly for the poor air force like PAF 
so i think PAF should go for J-10B if it is available on the card
because of it's price and effectiveness as compare to above mention jets*​


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## Super Falcon

if it is your sense of humor in which u bring respected members family in a topic it is not a sense of humor it is illitrate beaware in future good for u to not to get in trouble if u dont want to be my family memeber no probleum as a muslim i said it to you seems like you have heart like stone. nor we ask u again to be brother to us bye

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## Super Falcon

yes J 10B seems to be better option for PAF but dont no why they are waitting for J 10B deal J 10B will be in market mid of this year


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## nightrider_saulat

Super Falcon said:


> if it is your sense of humor in which u bring respected members family in a topic it is not a sense of humor it is illitrate beaware in future good for u to not to get in trouble if u dont want to be my family memeber no probleum as a muslim i said it to you seems like you have heart like stone. nor we ask u again to be brother to us bye



*every body have their own way of understanding stuations
i tried to give my e explanation now it's up to you
to believe it or not​*


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## nightrider_saulat

Super Falcon said:


> yes J 10B seems to be better option for PAF but dont no why they are waitting for J 10B deal J 10B will be in market mid of this year



*go for quality not for quantity may that is their "MOTO"as per quaid has said*


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## Super Falcon

yes but india is goign for quality and quantity for their mrca how we counter J 10B can do it but in huge numbers atleast 100+ not 36


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## nightrider_saulat

Super Falcon said:


> yes but india is goign for quality and quantity for their mrca how we counter J 10B can do it but in huge numbers atleast 100+ not 36



remember by grace of allah pak we take out the entire enemy fleet
composed of 400 hunters,mysteres,vampires,Gnat and canberras
with just 100 odd sabres


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## DANGER-ZONE

i think india is going for F16in.


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## Super Falcon

u think it but india will not go for F 16 for sure becoz i know it my gut felling and sixisth sense what ever u call it


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## Super Falcon

yes i remember with GRACE OF ALMIGHTY ALLAH WE CAN DO IT AGAIN


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Super Falcon said:


> u think it but india will not go for F 16 for sure becoz i know it my gut felling and sixisth sense what ever u call it



Sixth Sense 


and yeah I agree, i doubt they'd opt for the F16. In all honesty, if I were them I would go for FA/18 Hornet. But I think in the end, they will stick to their Russian suppliers. Maybe they'll go for Mig-35, which is an awesome looking aircraft I must say. How it were to perform, well we'll never know anytime soon.

Unless.....


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## Super Falcon

yes Mig 35 is front runner contander if russian cant sell it if they offer it to pakistan PAF will be more than happy to buy


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## DANGER-ZONE

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Sixth Sense
> 
> 
> and yeah I agree, i doubt they'd opt for the F16. In all honesty, if I were them I would go for FA/18 Hornet. But I think in the end, they will stick to their Russian suppliers. Maybe they'll go for Mig-35, which is an awesome looking aircraft I must say. How it were to perform, well we'll never know anytime soon.
> 
> Unless.....



NAH....
every one can see INDIAN military train is chainging its track to wards .
a few dacades ago indian millitary was a cloned force of russians,a little of eurpion too.but if u take a look on their weopon deals with USA now,it might shock ur sixth too.
i ve read a few indian analysts giving opinions against RUSSIAN weapons and un reliable tecnology,cuz the fact is they r tired of over hauling their russian aircrafts and their birds r keep on crashing
except MKI


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## DANGER-ZONE

Super Falcon said:


> yes Mig 35 is front runner contander if russian cant sell it if they offer it to pakistan PAF will be more than happy to buy



they'd love to but it will hault their millitary partnership wid india,n india is investing much for new millitary developments in russia.
russia will never like to lose this.


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## Super Falcon

hahahhaha now its american turn to make some money from india arent they they will suck even ............... for indian money to sell them their weapons what ever india asks they will bring it on plate thats why india canceled deal od multi billlion dollar with european firm airbus of airrefueling and went to boeing


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## Abu Zolfiqar

U.S. arming india (especially Air Force) would have serious geo-political ramifications in the region. We know that. hindoostanys know that. Americans know that.

U.S. defence companies would be happy to sell to indian.....Russians would be furious if indian opted for American aircrafts. Pakistanis would be furious that America Congress allows such a sale to attain approval. I don't doubt that if such a deal took place, we'd look towards Russia....Perhaps try to act as a go-between for China and Russia, encourage tri-lateral cooperation.

Who knows. We have to exercise some balance, as long as we are operating U.S. origin aircrafts and rely on their spares and tech. support --we have to work with them (Lockheed Martin Corporation, and the U.S.) on diplomatic/professional level

PAF knows what they are doing and how to do it.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> U.S. arming india (especially Air Force) would have serious geo-political ramifications in the region. We know that. hindoostanys know that. Americans know that.
> 
> U.S. defence companies would be happy to sell to indian.....Russians would be furious if indian opted for American aircrafts. Pakistanis would be furious that America Congress allows such a sale to attain approval. I don't doubt that if such a deal took place, we'd look towards Russia....Perhaps try to act as a go-between for China and Russia, encourage tri-lateral cooperation.
> 
> Who knows. We have to exercise some balance, as long as we are operating U.S. origin aircrafts and rely on their spares and tech. support --we have to work with them (Lockheed Martin Corporation, and the U.S.) on diplomatic/professional level
> 
> PAF knows what they are doing and how to do it.



totally agreed.


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## Stealth

nightrider_saulat said:


> *rafale ke paise tumhare abbo denge kya
> i think only J-10B is the existable alternative for the purchase of F-16block 52*



Well if you have guts to talk to me face to face (like this way)... then i will give you the answer of this question that "kis kay abu paisay dengay aur kisko deengay"

Secondly this is not the way to talk with anyone even either Indian or Pakistani. Well we are here to discuss Military related matters. We are not here to make this forum like Bharatraksha and few other forums where people always try to show off that we have blaa bla etc.

My request to you is to be carefull next time.

Thanks,






Super Falcon said:


> Nightrider kindly watch ur words he is our most respected member u should respect him he have contributed for the forum next time when u reply kindly watch whom u r messing with stealth is like us and we are like stealth if any one say anything to you and stealth it like he said to me and insulted the forum i will not going to forgive next time watch ur words.





Super Falcon said:


> Stealth Kindly on my request forgive him forgiving is a better option.




Thank you very much for support "already forgve him" 






TOPGUN said:


> True but bro wat makes you think PAF will go for rafales? and do you think we have the funds for that boss?



Dear i am just giving my opinion. If we don't go for more J10 and save money for next 5 years, we can easily go for Rafale. I didnt mean that we will cut off our current deals and apply for rafale. Rafale is good for Pakistan as compared to F16 because "No String attached" and spares and everything "in deal time frame". We already have French weapons especially "Submarine and Mirage" so if we will go for another French deal its good for Pakistan and France relation. I know Rafale is a bit expensive as compared to F16 but take a look at this example.

Consider a car that is cheap but for which the dealer gives restrictions that you won&#8217;t take it to places like Muree or Lahore. Is that one better OR the one which is a bit expensive but there are no dealer-imposed restrictions on it? 





imran khan said:


> yaar abu ko beach main mat lao.stealth bhi bhut gali galoch janta hai dekh ker haan.



ya PHD ke hoi hey mainay lol




Growler said:


> The time frame is absolutely wrong. 18 F-16s will reach pakistan by the end of 2011 and if Pakistan does execute option for 18 more then all 36 will be here in pak by the end of 2013. Mark my words IAF MRCA tender will be stretched to atleast another year or even couple of more years, then it will take about a year to finalize the configuration. Production line will be installed in India which could take couple of years. then only by 2016-17 or so the first batch of the MRCA will be handed over to IAF. Indians can play fanboys as much they want but i am just being realistic.





araz said:


> Stealth
> I know you have some reservations about the F16s and especially US. However, if you look at the number of F16s on order, do you see something significant? PAF and Pakistan in its current financial state cannot buy, maintain and run a fleet of fighters like the rafale. Secondly what advantage will the rafale give you that a developed FC20 will not give you? And why do think will the french be anymore generous to you than the Americans,since you will ask them for a loan you may well not be able to pay.
> I think you have to look at the bigger picture and the painting on the wall is that we will continue to indegenize and incorporate tech only rather than expensive fighters. In this light it makes sense to buy f16s in small numbers especially in the light of the missiles and other goodies that you get with them. The latter may well be more important than the planes themselves. Our position with regards to Indian acquisitions needs to also be understood. We will never mount an agressive campaign against anyone and most of our war will be defensive. if that is the case, then all that we need is credible deterrent rather than matching them number for number, which will not be possible.
> regards
> Araz





*@Growler*

Man 126 Aircraft deal and 18 aircraft deal (huge difference between such deal). In 8 years (2005 - 2013) we will get 36 Aircraft (if US delivers those aircrafts in deal time frame). I think while posting you forgot our past deals with US.

About IAF MRCA deal, it is still not finalized. Count the days after the deal is finalized because deal will finalize in 2010 or 2011. Now count days from 2011 &#8211; 2017. In 6 year they will get 126 aircrafts as opposed to the 36 that Pakistan will get in 8 years  

Point to be noted, count deals days just like:

* PAF 2005 - 2013 (8 years and just 36 Aircrafts). The deal is just on paper. We cannot trust USA to fulfill the deal.
* IAF 2011 - 2017 (6 years and 126 aircraft including extra options like re-fueler etc). Israel is an active lobby against Pakistan and the only way US has to recover her economy is through selling weapons to India.




*@Araz*
Dear no doubt that AMERICAN Weapons are best in quality and technology. It is a fact that we cannot match ourselves with India. As far as minimum deterrence is concerned, being defensive is nothing. In case of a long term war, we will have to be on an offensive and for that we will need more weapons; the weapons that will be required to penetrate in and heavily damage enemy installations. In today&#8217;s times, the most powerful of the forces should be airforce, in my opinion.

On a side note, I never understand what &#8220;minimum deterrence&#8221; actually means.

About FC20 China is far behind in weapons technology. Still China is using Russian engines. On the other hand Rafale is expensive but has Quality. In next few years 5 Rafale will become a much more mature platform as compared to China FC20. The reason being that China still can not make a good Aircraft engine. 

I know Rafale is a bit expensive as compared to F16 but take a look at this example.

Consider a car that is cheap but for which the dealer gives restrictions that you won&#8217;t take it to places like Muree or Lahore. Is that one better OR the one which is a bit expensive but there are no dealer-imposed restrictions on it?


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## Myth_buster_1

Stealth said:


> *@Growler*
> 
> Man 126 Aircraft deal and 18 aircraft deal (huge difference between such deal). In 8 years (2005 - 2013) we will get 36 Aircraft (if US delivers those aircrafts in deal time frame). I think while posting you forgot our past deals with US.
> 
> About IAF MRCA deal, it is still not finalized. Count the days after the deal is finalized because deal will finalize in 2010 or 2011. Now count days from 2011  2017. In 6 year they will get 126 aircrafts as opposed to the 36 that Pakistan will get in 8 years
> 
> Point to be noted, count deals days just like:
> 
> * PAF 2005 - 2013 (8 years and just 36 Aircrafts). The deal is just on paper. We cannot trust USA to fulfill the deal.
> * IAF 2011 - 2017 (6 years and 126 aircraft including extra options like re-fueler etc). Israel is an active lobby against Pakistan and the only way US has to recover her economy is through selling weapons to India.



Again. Absolutely rubbish. 
I dough you comprehended anything from my previous simple english post. 
Looks like you have a personal issue with F-16s and US but let me enlighten you that PAK-F-16 deal time frame consisted more of "political" bargaining then anything else. PAF only send a formal request in 2006 for F-16 package such as new F-16s MLU and armaments. then the issue was debated and debated and debated in US congress and until late 2007 did the US finally agreed and then in 2008 the work begun, and the first batch of block 15 F-16s went to US for MLU along with PAF technicians for training etc. Kindly use google and find out yourself that it took Greece Poland Chile about the same time frame for induction after a finalized contract. 

I have no freaking idea whats up with you an IAF so lately. So how did you come to a conclusion that once the MRCA contract is finalized in 2010-11 all 126 will be operational in IAF by 2017? Are you kidding me? In your analogy you are not even counting on (IAF personal configuration of the aircraft, construction of assembly line, normal delays in projects such as observed in many Indian defence acquisition) time frame. or are you just saying for the sake of argument. and then you are saying the only way for US to recover its economy is by selling arms to India? Kindly put on your thinking cap and be realistic.


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## Super Falcon

wel wel wel my conclusion is PAF buy this F 16 batch than stop buying anymore. F 16 and start buying J 10B atleast not 36 it will not make any difference to indian Airforce strength they already got Mig 29K which their navy uses and for them oue airforce should be ready to counter them. their is a small solution to the probleum if Paf buy atleast 60 odd J 10 and along with 250 JF 17 than we should buy20 to 30 eurofighter tphoon it will make life easy for PAF to counter any indian threat and plz do not forget i asked for small numbers of eurofighter which can take paf to 2030 without any probleum not matter what india buys in exercise eurofighter given tough fight to F 22 and there is not better fighter jet in world than F 22 if eurofighter has given F 22 run for their money than any indian acusation wont make any difference and remember its not only fighter jets PAF needs our crotale will be retired soon and spada will replace it we need other air defence missile system for high altitude to take it out and indian drones which they buy from israel will fly on high altitudes and their MRCA too and buy some new radar system which india is filling it self very quickly we lack in this matter we need to utilize our money very careffully


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## Super Falcon

i know it will cost alot to paf if paf plans for next 10 years funds the can do it and some weapons they can get on easy loans too if they play this game politically with france and UK


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://

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## Super Falcon

F 16 still a defencive musle of half of the world along with USA and Israel who relies heavily on its Airforce in war F 16 along with F 15 have 100 percent damage rate in wars without get hit single time only once in chechnya one F 16 got hit by russian sam system


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://


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## Super Falcon

F 15 was only made for airsuperiority over russian Mig fighter jets and F 15 was succesfull against them in cold war in 70s which saved USA from a huge war in atlantic ocean. and kept ameica a super power in its 30 years of service never got shutdown by any one on one dog fight missions what a supremacy we were talking about rafale eurofighter F 35 why not F 15 Strike eagle well dudes this is PAF can get with latest tech on it as singapore airforce got it its true air super power for me. it will make life difficult for india if they go for Mig 35 or F 16 N


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://


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## Super Falcon

F 15 Strike eagle can be reality for PAF if they want it along with F 16 60 along with JF 17 250 along with J 10 B 40 and F 15 around 30 will give a power punch to paf which it wants to know out entire indian airforce i say it becoz they record of F 15 speaks itself and if u take alll fifth gen fighter jets out u will see F 15 rules the sky eurofighter and rafale are not 5 gen they are better than F 15 no doubt but F 15 will not be an easy kill for them their is a chance if better pilot sitin in F 15 will have a kill on rafale in eurofighter and it will be cost efective answer to indian MRCA i think this way whats r ur say


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://


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## Super Falcon

like other modern strike planes. eurofighter has inheintly unstable design it is built with triangle shaped delta wings and two small canards in the front to turn 20000 kilograms of unstable metal in agile fighter requires three massive computers. which uses the software which is known as carefree handling


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## Super Falcon

Eurofighter Typhoon is not Stealthy it never wanted to be it fights it battles from the distance


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## Super Falcon

great fighter pilots wants to be as fast as quickly and shoot down enemy before he know u are there from a distance and run bravely


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## Super Falcon

eurofighter can fly supersonic speeds without loosing too much of fuel and heat signatures for enemy Surface to air missiles and radars


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## Super Falcon

Eurofighter Typhoon is Lethal killing machine. can carry upto 10 air to air missiles. it means 10 enemy fighter jets death in the wings of eurofigheter


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## Super Falcon

F 16 and F 15 also can get to 9G but for secons but eurofighter is different it can fly continuesly on 9 G force which is very very difficult for any pilot but with eurofighter G suite it is posssible


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## Super Falcon

it is capable of 9 G 5 times a weight of your own very very sophisticated tech must see from europe and UK answer to american stealth fighter jet F 22


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## Super Falcon

complex manuvers at high G forces rates most sophisticated pilot interface ever created its a every fighter pilots dream to fly eurofighter typhoon now saudi arabia also uses it


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## Super Falcon

Human bodies cannot survive thestonishing power of G force it is the last fighter planes breed Eurofighter Typhhon, F35 and F 22 which human flies


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://


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## Super Falcon

[url="http://


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## Super Falcon

very very difficult to choose fighter jets F 15,eurofighter.F 35,F22,SU 35,SU 37.Rafale very very very difficult whose is best


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## Myth_buster_1

Superfalcon kindly when you are in a wild posting mood try to put all of your posts in one post rather then posting 2-3 lines after every other 2-3 mins to hike up your number of posts. 
And kindly stick with the subject. its PAF F-16 discussion. not a random fighter jets discussion.


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## Super Falcon

120 millions USD Dollars each F 22


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## Super Falcon

Ok grwoler but here we were talkin about the succesor for next decade to paf what should they choose but next time i will take care of these things but seems like u have always have some probleums with me noone says me a alot than you can i ask you why.


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## Sapper

I agree with Growler on this.

This entire page has merely 10 lines of text and NO useful information.
When i see F16 Discussion post in "bold" on the home page, i click it with too much eagerness, and lately i have been very disappointed to see the text of useless information and tail-chasing posts.

Lets all be serious and stick to the topic of thread.

Regards,
Sapper


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## Super Falcon

Ok sapper i accepted my mistake and now kindly let it go i will take care of it in future lets come on topic. what should PAF do to upgrade its old F 16 to block 52 and i know they are underway of mou upgradution but still they will not like block 52


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## Myth_buster_1

Super Falcon said:


> Ok sapper i accepted my mistake and now kindly let it go i will take care of it in future lets come on topic. what should PAF do to upgrade its old F 16 to block 52 and i know they are underway of mou upgradution but still they will not like block 52



ok this has been discused already but let me tell you... MLU M3 for block 10-15 is as good as a block 52 however the "plus" version has a new frame and accommodates more modern systems. If you notice something that older PAF F-16s have shorter rudder base (dont know the proper term) has neither a parachute or more importantly MAW and only a longer frame supports it. so IMO their might be a little change in PAF MLU frames.


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## Super Falcon

what about radar of mlu and block 52 are they will be new ones as on 52 or on mlu there will be same old ones


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## Super Falcon

Most of us know what Egypt is owned aircraft f-16 but does anyone know what Egypt lost them????


Date \ No plane \ blocks \ Notes
January 20th 83 \ 9204 \ block 15a \ engine failure (death of the pilots)
6 &#1606;&#1608;&#1601;&#1605;&#1576;&#1585; 90 \ 9311 \ block 15e \ collided with the f-16a near Port Said
2 &#1575;&#1603;&#1578;&#1608;&#1576;&#1585; 91 \ 9312 \ block 15e \ ??????????????????????
6 &#1606;&#1608;&#1601;&#1605;&#1576;&#1585; 90 \ 9313 \ block 15e \ collided with the f-16a near Port Said
May 21 87 \ 9316 \ block 15f \ ?????????????????????? 
3 &#1575;&#1594;&#1587;&#1591;&#1587; 92 \ 9320 \ block 15g \ collided with the f-16a
12 &#1610;&#1608;&#1604;&#1610;&#1608; 93 \ 9326 \ block 15j \ ?????????????????????
15 &#1605;&#1575;&#1585;&#1587; 95 \ 9327 \ block 15k \ ?????????????????????
3 &#1575;&#1594;&#1587;&#1591;&#1587; 92 \ 9332 \ block 15l \ collided with the f-16a
10 &#1605;&#1575;&#1610;&#1608; 94 \ 9520 \ block 32b \ ????????????????????
23 &#1605;&#1575;&#1610;&#1608; 95 \ 9521 \ block 32b \ ???????????????????
21 &#1575;&#1576;&#1585;&#1610;&#1604; 2008 \ 9533 \ block32b \, 80 miles south of Beni Suef
4 &#1575;&#1603;&#1578;&#1608;&#1576;&#1585; 94 \ 9917 \ block 40k \ ???????????????????? 
9 &#1587;&#1576;&#1578;&#1605;&#1576;&#1585; 93 \ 9928 \ block 40l \ ????????????????????
7 &#1575;&#1576;&#1585;&#1610;&#1604; 97 \ 9807 \ block 40k \ collided with a f-16c in the air
7 &#1575;&#1576;&#1585;&#1610;&#1604; 97 \ 9935 \ block 40m \ collided with f-16d in the air
14 &#1610;&#1608;&#1604;&#1610;&#1608; 94 \ 9852 \ block40n \ ???????????????????
12 &#1610;&#1608;&#1606;&#1610;&#1607; 99 \ 9979 \ block 40r \ Atinaalhbot crashed and the pilots survived
13 &#1610;&#1608;&#1604;&#1610;&#1608; 2004 \ 9716 \ block 40 \. Is uncertain.



Marked \ with the aircraft, the sole survivor of the pilots have been dashed by collisions and runway while landing both Tairin succeeded in jumping and resulted in the crash of the plane body and burning cabin and destroy the tires and engine and then came American team in 2000 and the plane was not flying only 150 hours and the cost of repair of the aircraft at $ 3.2 million beginning in November 2005 became the plane airworthy again Intzer back to Egypt. 



lets see what our egyptian friends have

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## mean_bird

The MLU will be exactly like the blk 52 except for 3 things
- No change in thrust
- No enhanced range/weight

and probably one more thing that is not coming to my mind right now. 

Otherwise, it will be upgraded with the same features as a blk 52. Same radar (APG68v9), same avionics, ECM, etc.

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## Dazzler

That absent feature is Digital Radio Frequency Memory support which both our MLU's as well as the new Block 52's will lack.


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## Barrett

*Courtesy blain2
*
The MLU upgrade kits will include: APG-68(V)9 radar; Embedded GPS/INS (EGI); Link-16 data link; APX-113 Advanced Identify Friend or Foe (AIFF); Color Cockpit with Color Moving Map; ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) Pod; Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) Cockpit and External Lighting; Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod; Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS); Reconnaissance Pod capability; improved avionics systems; JDAM capability; EGBU capability; AIM-120 AMRAAM capability; and AGM-84 Harpoon capability. While many of the avionics systems and capabilities are common with the new Block 52s and the MLU, some significant differences remain between the MLU F-16 Block 15s and the new PAF Block 52s: there are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time; there are no engine improvements; and, there are no improvements to payload capacity. Overall, the MLU program will extend the service life of Pakistans original F-16 aircraft and very significantly increase the capability of the Pakistan Air Force to conduct Close Air Support and night precision attack missions. I would like to highlight that in parallel with the significant improvement in weapon accuracy gained by precision guided munitions like JDAM, there is the potential to dramatically reduce collateral damage and civilian casualties.

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## Super Falcon

thanx for info barret


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## Myth_buster_1

mean_bird said:


> The MLU will be exactly like the blk 52 except for 3 things
> - No change in thrust
> - No enhanced range/weight
> 
> and probably one more thing that is not coming to my mind right now.
> 
> Otherwise, it will be upgraded with the same features as a blk 52. Same radar (APG68v9), same avionics, ECM, etc.



Not the exact something or else LM would be stupid to add more weight on the dorsal spine of the twin seater. MLU M3 is going to be a mixer of Block 15 52 and 52+. the amazing this is that PAF is going to be using same radar as IDAF latest F-16s.


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## Sapper

I have a few questions.

Will F16MLU have the following features ?

1. Conformal Fuel Tanks
2. Extended Dorsal Spine
3. Advanced RWR and Missile Approach warning receiver as present on the new Bl52's Rudder.
4. Improved Gun Port
5. On-board Oxygen Generation

Also i want to know if the "new" F16 Bl52's have on-board oxygen generation opposed to carrying oxygen bottles.

Regards,
Sapper


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## DANGER-ZONE

Sapper said:


> I have a few questions.
> 
> Will F16MLU have the following features ?
> 
> 1. Conformal Fuel Tanks
> 2. Extended Dorsal Spine
> 3. Advanced RWR and Missile Approach warning receiver present on the new Bl52's Rudder.
> 4. Improved Gun Port
> 5. On-board Oxygen Generation
> 
> Also i want to know if the "new" F16 Bl52's have on-board oxygen generation opposed to carrying oxygen bottles.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper


what so ever for these,but what f16 must have is different refueling prob so it can be refilled by IL 78.

CFT and drosal spin should be included.but im not confirmed.

for ur third question its answer is YES.

dont know about 4 n 5


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## Super Falcon

well what about aesa radar on our old F 16


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## Sapper

Super Falcon said:


> well what about aesa radar on our old F 16



No AESA, Paf's F16MLU and F16 Bl52 will all carry the same APG68v9 radars.

Regards,
Sapper


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## Dazzler

MLU's will have 

Advanced Hazeltine IFF

On board Oxygen Generation System (even our rose mirages and jf-17 have them)

Improved Gun port

MLUs will not have

CTFs

Dorsal Spine for additional avionics and EW equipment

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## Super Falcon

so it is better than aesa or same configuration


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## Sapper

Super Falcon said:


> so it is better than aesa or same configuration



F16s AESA radar is designated APG80 which is used aboard F16E/F of UAE air force.

APG80 is far superior to APG68v9 radars aboard Pakistani and Israeli F16s.

Regards,
Sapper


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## Super Falcon

apg 80 is better than aesa radar or not


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## PAFAce

Super Falcon said:


> apg 80 is better than aesa radar or not


AN/APG-80 _is_ an AESA RADAR, so what do you mean?

The United Arab Emirates funded the development of the APG-80 for their Block 60s. F-16 Block 50/52 and MLU come with AN/APG-68, a Mechanically Steered Array RADAR, which is not as capable as the APG-80. However, older Block F-16s can be retrofitted with an AESA RADAR known as the Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) RADAR. All these RADARs are provided by Northrop Grumman, who were part of the original F-16 development team as secondary contractors for General Dynamics.

Pakistani Block 52 and MLU will have the AN/APG-68, which is a high-end MSA RADAR. Our best hope for an ESA equipped fighter is the FC-20 with, most likely, a PESA system. PAF's ERIEYE also an AESA RADAR, so until that time where we get an ESA, we will rely on networked detection more than individual. 

Now, I hope that helps.

Here are some links for more research:
- http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/sabr/index.html
- http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/apg68/assets/APG68.pdf
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/APG-68
- http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/f16aesaradar/index.html
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/APG-80

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## TOPGUN

Will our mlu f-16's be able to be fitted with the cft's?


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## mshoaib61

TOPGUN said:


> Will our mlu f-16's be able to be fitted with the cft's?



I dont think Paf MLU f16 will be fitted with CFT 
Improvement in F16 MLU will be

*Internally*

The improvements are as follows:

- Cockpit. To be updated to F-16C/D block 50/52 standard. New and relocated instruments as well as new Head-Up Display (HUD).
- Navigation. The aircraft receive Global Positioning System (GPS).
- Radar. Increased effective range.
- Computer. Increased capacity and speed.
- Electronic warfare. 

*Externally
*

- 4 IFF antennas in front of the cockpit (called bird slicers).
- New instrument panel, camera arrangements near the HUD, and new HUD.
- New and rearranged landing/taxi lights.
- Modified wing pylons on stations 3 and 7 (the middle pylons under the wings).
- Replacing of antennas.

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## mshoaib61

Most of the avionics that will be installed during MLU is existing hardware that is modified for use in the F-16. The Modular Mission Computer however is designed especially for the F-16. This will undoubtedly be one of the most important computers of the F-16 once MLU is completed.


*Modular Mission Computer*

The most important item of the Mid Life Update package is the Texas Instruments Modular Mission Computer (MMC) which is the key to providing new capabilities such as sensors and weapons, improved pilot-vehicle interface and pilot aiding. Subcontractors are Terma, Nea Lindberg and Signaal. This computer consists of line-replaceable modules (LRMs) based upon several MIPSCO R3000 32-bit RISC microprocessors which will run the ADA high-order language. An object-oriented design will reduce the lead times for new software and will improve the software maintenance. Other features include multiplex bus modules, avionics display processor, display driver and power supplies. The MMC will be the key to driving towards fleetwide commonality of system modes and software.

It will replace three components, namely the computers currently in use for the Expanded Fire Control Computer (XFCC), the Head Up Display Electronics Unit (HUD EU or HUD symbol generator), and the Stores Management System's Expanded Central Interface Unit (XCIU). The MMC will take up 42% less volume in the aircraft, weights 55% less and consumes 37% less electrical power. Of the 24 slots available in the computer, ten will be used for future growth.

*
Fire Control Radar*

The Westinghouse AN/APX-66(V2) Fire Control Radar (FCR) will be equipped with an completely new signal data processor. *It allows a track-while-scan mode for up to ten targets as well as a six-on-six AIM-120 AMRAAM capability. *Other features include a 25% improvement in detection and tracking range, an enhanced Doppler Beam Sharpening mode (DBS), enhanced air-ground and ground mapping modes, a medium resolutions DNS, an enhanced ECCM, and a color display compatibility. The MLU kit and the receiver will also have an 40% improved reliability over previous versions.

Physical parameters :

* Volume : 3.43 cu. ft.
* Weight : 261.5 lb
* Power : 3285 V/A AC (Max), 155 Watts DC (Nominal)
* Cooling : 11.3 lb/min a 27degr. C


*Advanced IFF
*
The Hazeltine APX-111(V1) Advanced Identification Friend-or-Foe system (AIFF) with increased range performance (100 Nm) will operate via four (rather striking) antennas mounted on the upper forward fuselage in front of the canopy. These "bird slicers", more formally known as Upper Interogator Fuselage Mounted Antenna (FMA) Array, will be the most noticeable exterior change of the Mid Life Update.

The benefits of this AIFF system will be the support for BVR weapons delivery in excess of Radar/Missile limits and the enhanced situational awareness which reduces the chance of a fratricide.

*
Cockpit displays and indicators*


*Wide Angle Conventional Head Up display
*
The new Wide Angle Conventional Head Up Display (WAC HUD) manufactured by GEC Marconi Avionics will increase readability and pilot comfort, offers a wider field of view than the current HUD and adds a raster capability and support for night operations. This HUD is also FLIR and EEGS compatible.
Multi-Function Display

*The Multi-Function Display *(MFD) set, manufactured by Honeywell, include two 10cm x 10cm (4in x 4in) color active matrix liquid crystal multi-function displays, which will replace the current single monochrome Radar Electro/Optical Indicator Unit (REO-IU) and the Stores Control Panel (SCP) - the Stores Management System display. Both displays will increase the pilot's Situational Awareness drastically and will therefore contribute to increased flight safety.
Enhanced Upgraded Programmable Display Generator

*An Enhanced Upgraded Programmable Display Generator (EUPDG), *manufactured by Honeywell and Nea Lindberg in Denmark, will support the two color MFD's, allowing the pilot to set up to twelve display programs. One of them includes a color Horizontal Situation Display, which will be, provide the pilot with a God's eye view of the tactical situation. Inside is a 20MHz, 32-bit Intel 80960 Display Processor and a 256K battery-backed RAM system memory. The color graphics controller is based on the T.I. TMS34020 Raster Graphics Chipset.


*Audio/Video Recorder*

Also new is the Cockpit Television System manufactured by Telemetrics. The current Airborne Video Tape Recorder (AVTR) will be replaced by a TEAC color audio visual tape recorder. Head Up Display images as well as the images of the Multi Function Displays will be selectable for recording which is great for the debriefing of missions.

*
Helmet Mounted Display*

A helmet-mounted display (HMD) is not part of the present configuration, but program director Philip Schwab believes that the European operators may decide to incorporate it if the program continues to progress well. Lockheed Martin and Honeywell have demonstrated the use of the HMD, combined with DTS, to allow the pilot to designate targets of opportunity simply by placing an HMD pipper on the target. EPAF and USAF are to pursue a five-nation HMD program, related to the introduction of the ASRAAM, the Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile, somewhere in the next century. Software and hardware modifications are already being studied by a cockpit review team and both space and wiring is already being accounted for in the current MLU.
*
Side stick controller and throttle grip*

The side stick controller (manufactured by Lear Astronics Corporation) and throttle grip are Block 50 unit models and will replace the current Block-10/15 stick grips. Both throttle and stick will be equipped with various controls, for an increased variety of functions, including VHF and UHF communications, IFF interrogation, Improved Data Modem operation, secondary flight controls (speed brakes), night vision cockpit blackout selection (NVIS Switch) and boresighting as well as slaving of missiles (now only selectable via the cues of the Stores Control Panel, which requires hands-off-throttle, head-down operation). 


Modifications & Upgrades / Other features

*
Improved Data Modem*

The Improved Data Modem (IDM), developed by the U.S. Naval Research Laboratory and built by Symetrics Inc., will be used to exchange data of various systems and targets with other aircraft (e.g. F-16, A-10, AH-64 or E-8 JSTARS) or with a ground station. Provisions have been made for the Link 16 Joint Tactical Information Distribution System (JTIDS).

*Electronic Warfare Management System*

An Electronic Warfare Management System (EWMS) developed by Terma Elektronik AS in Denmark provides centralized EW control for entire EW suite : management of threats (RWR), ANQ pods and advanced chaff/flare systems.

*Miniaturized Airborne GPS Receiver*

MAGR, Miniaturized Airborne GPS Receiver built by Rockwell-Collins Avionics & Communications Division, operating via an E-Systems antenna. It provides accurate position, velocity and time to support navigation, steering and weapon delivery. This system is smaller and lighter than the Block 40/50 receiver (RCVR 3A), consumes less power but delivers the same performance.

*Digital Terrain System*

A Digital Terrain System (DTS), which uses the British Aerospace Systems & Equipments (BASE) Terprom system hosted on a Fairchild Defense memory module (128kb). The DTS provides precise navigation (in conjunction with the Rockwell/E-Systems GPS) and performs a number of safety and situational-awareness functions in low-level flight. This does not imply however, that the F-16 will be capable of automatic terrain following. The (former Block-10/-15) F-16 aircraft does not have a digital flight control system, so the system cannot be linked directly to the aircraft's Flight Control System. The pilot will be following the DTS advice manually by flying on the Flight Path Marker in the HUD. The system is as accurate as the accuracy of the maps being used, so this requires extremely accurate maps of the area.

*Cockpit Layout*

The cockpit layout will be the one of the F-16C Block-40/50. However, unlike the Block-40/50 aircraft, the MLU F-16s will be equipped with color displays. The cockpit lighing will be compatible with Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) and all visible surfaces will be painted black. The Night Vision goggles are deactivated in the HUD field-of-view to allow inhibited HUD viewing.
Provisions for recce pods


*Provisions for the Microwave Landing System*

This system will be incorporated in the F-16 structure. The system will not be standard equipment on the F-16 and the particular countries have to by it seperately. Although not standard, the system will enhance flight safety by adding an MLS, which can guide the pilot through adverse weather conditions.


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## PAFAce

TOPGUN said:


> Will our mlu f-16's be able to be fitted with the cft's?


There is a report presented to the US House Committee on Foreign Affairs by Vice Admiral Jeffrey Wieringa of the US Navy that is a must read for anyone who wants to know more about the F-16 MLU and Block 52s offered to Pakistan. It has been posted on this thread many times, but your best bet is to Google it.

This excerpt answers your question:
_While many of the avionics systems and capabilities are common with the new Block 52s and the MLU, some significant differences remain between the MLU F-16 Block 15s and the new PAF Block 52s: there are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time; there are no engine improvements; and, there are no improvements to payload capacity._

The only way we can extend the loiter-time or mission range of our F-16s is through Aerial Refueling. However, because the F-16s current refueling system is incompatible with the refueling system procured by Pakistan, this is not a possibility. Can we integrate the F-16s with customized refueling system? Possibly, but the move night be objected to since it would require some reverse engineering on the PAF's part.

Now, pretty much every question you guys have has been answered by people far more knowledgeable than I am before. Before posting any more questions, do a search. If you don't find anything, then go ahead and post the question, and we will be more than happy to answer to the best of our abilities.

*Edit*
Here is the House Committee report:
*US House Committee on Foreign Affairs by Vice Admiral Jeffrey Wieringa of the US Navy*
Absolute must read for anybody interested in Pakistan's F-16 Block 52 procurement and Mid-Life Upgrades.


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## araz

nightrider_saulat said:


> *i have no interest in becoming your family member*
> 
> 
> *sir i just tried to shared my sense of humor.....i thought i would bring some comic in the environment
> please understand it in that way............*



Night rider 
Even humour sometimes involving parents or family is a bad idea. It only needs one to be in a bad mood and before you know it, you have a raging argument over nothing. So please keep family and personal comments out of it. 
Kindest regards
Araz


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## araz

PAFAce said:


> There is a report presented to the US House Committee on Foreign Affairs by Vice Admiral Jeffrey Wieringa of the US Navy that is a must read for anyone who wants to know more about the F-16 MLU and Block 52s offered to Pakistan. It has been posted on this thread many times, but your best bet is to Google it.
> 
> This excerpt answers your question:
> _While many of the avionics systems and capabilities are common with the new Block 52s and the MLU, some significant differences remain between the MLU F-16 Block 15s and the new PAF Block 52s: there are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time; there are no engine improvements; and, there are no improvements to payload capacity._
> 
> The only way we can extend the loiter-time or mission range of our F-16s is through Aerial Refueling. However, because the F-16s current refueling system is incompatible with the refueling system procured by Pakistan, this is not a possibility. Can we integrate the F-16s with customized refueling system? Possibly, but the move night be objected to since it would require some reverse engineering on the PAF's part.
> 
> Now, pretty much every question you guys have has been answered by people far more knowledgeable than I am before. Before posting any more questions, do a search. If you don't find anything, then go ahead and post the question, and we will be more than happy to answer to the best of our abilities.
> 
> *Edit*
> Here is the House Committee report:
> *US House Committee on Foreign Affairs by Vice Admiral Jeffrey Wieringa of the US Navy*
> Absolute must read for anybody interested in Pakistan's F-16 Block 52 procurement and Mid-Life Upgrades.



PAFace.
i think PAF is very aware of the problems which we will face in case of an all out war. it is also a question of what will be available to us in the way of refuellers and whether it would be worthwhile for us to buy such a capability. i have always maintained that F16s are more of a tech demonstrators(you know what I mean!!!!).Unless the mood in the Congress changes and you know what the thinking is up there. I think at the moment we think we will get the Bl52s first and see how things go. if finances are there and the will is there on the part of US, we may get some more, and more old ones to MLU, but also another factor in the conundrum is the strides that the chinese are making.If they can get their act together especially in case of engines and they are beginning to ge tresults , then there may not be many problems with PAF going all chinese or indegenous with chinese help.The advantages of that are too many to discount. But this is how i see PAF evolving. 
there has been talk of PN wanting an airwing of its own, but for pakistan in its current financial situation i dont know whether this will materialize. I personally think resources could be utilized in a better manner.
My 2 paisas worht
Araz

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## nightrider_saulat

araz said:


> Night rider
> Even humour sometimes involving parents or family is a bad idea. It only needs one to be in a bad mood and before you know it, you have a raging argument over nothing. So please keep family and personal comments out of it.
> Kindest regards
> Araz



now i accept my mistake........
so leave me now.with my own business in this forum


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## BATMAN

araz said:


> PAFace.
> i think PAF is very aware of the problems which we will face in case of an all out war. it is also a question of what will be available to us in the way of refuellers and whether it would be worthwhile for us to buy such a capability. i have always maintained that F16s are more of a tech demonstrators(you know what I mean!!!!).Unless the mood in the Congress changes and you know what the thinking is up there. I think at the moment we think we will get the Bl52s first and see how things go. if finances are there and the will is there on the part of US, we may get some more, and more old ones to MLU, but also another factor in the conundrum is the strides that the chinese are making.If they can get their act together especially in case of engines and they are beginning to ge tresults , then there may not be many problems with PAF going all chinese or indegenous with chinese help.The advantages of that are too many to discount. But this is how i see PAF evolving.
> there has been talk of PN wanting an airwing of its own, but for pakistan in its current financial situation i dont know whether this will materialize. I personally think resources could be utilized in a better manner.
> My 2 paisas worht
> Araz



I'm sorry to say it but almost in every post you highlight Pakistan economy and Pakistan stealing technology (in covert words) from F-16!! just with a rephrase.

Let me replay from 10 years ago-- Pakistan's financial situation was 10 times more worst than as of today and till two years ago we were lending help and we even right off Bosnian loan once.
Point is; we have imense potential...... missing is patriotism!
On the issue; last govt. have already paid for the F-16 blk-52.
If US cancel the deal than we can block indian and US transit trade which (conservative) estimate to be of value around 30 billion USD peryear.
Count how many F-16 we can buy with this amount?
If US don't need Pakistan they will not spare a second to withhold our money but apparently this is not the case. Pakistan's military aid can be delayed but it will continue to trickel as long US plan to stay in the region.
All what Pakistan need to do is to hold on to Balauchistan and crack down on insurgents.
Alone this aurgument should help considerably to untie the knots to the riddle you present us almost every time.

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## Super Falcon

BATMAN said:


> I'm sorry to say it but almost in every post you highlight Pakistan economy and Pakistan stealing technology (in covert words) from F-16!! just with a rephrase.
> 
> Let me replay from 10 years ago-- Pakistan's financial situation was 10 times more worst than as of today and till two years ago we were lending help and we even right off Bosnian loan once.
> Point is; we have imense potential...... missing is patriotism!
> On the issue; last govt. have already paid for the F-16 blk-52.
> If US cancel the deal than we can block indian and US transit trade which (conservative) estimate to be of value around 30 billion USD peryear.
> Count how many F-16 we can buy with this amount?
> If US don't need Pakistan they will not spare a second to withhold our money but apparently this is not the case. Pakistan's military aid can be delayed but it will continue to trickel as long US plan to stay in the region.
> All what Pakistan need to do is to hold on to Balauchistan and crack down on insurgents.
> Alone this aurgument should help considerably to untie the knots to the riddle you present us almost every time.






agreed to you hoped u be our minister of interior


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## araz

[


HTML:


QUOTE=BATMAN;642311]I'm sorry to say it but almost in every post you highlight Pakistan economy and Pakistan stealing technology (in covert words) from F-16!!  just with a rephrase.


Batman
My friend have i said anything wrong. Pakistani economy is in tatters and your proud production ie JF17 has been likened to a "Mini F16 " by many.I have despaired at the state of our economy for decades. however, I am realistic rather than overly optimistic. While no one has denied the potential that pakistan has, its realization has not happened. If you talk to the people who are in world finance, they would point out how data has been fudged and glossed over even during musharraf era to paint a much rosier picture than it actually is. You might also want to look over your neighbours and realize that while our bubble has burst pretty quickly, India nad China have gone from strength to strength, even in the times of the recession.
The status of F16 and their significance is also an open secret. What do you hope to achieve with 18 aircrafts? I am sure MuradK and other PAF people will tell you that it was nothing other than international "Ghunda Gardi" that made us buy F16s. We therefore counterparried by buying just the 18. Thois is the long and short of it.




HTML:


[B]Let me replay from 10 years ago-- Pakistan's financial situation was 10 times more worst than as of today and till two years ago we were lending help and we even right off Bosnian loan once.
Point is; we have imense potential...... missing is patriotism![/B]

Dont argue with that , but what we also seem to have is a lot of gas. We are overconfident of our potential and are just not willing to make the necessary changes to root out our basic deficiencies. Education is lacking, general awareness is nonexistant, infrastructure is infnatile, sure we have made strides due to a sense of self preservation, but have we done as well as we should have had__ NO!! It is a testament of our political and moral terpitude that after 60 yrs we are still wishing for marshall law to come and save us from our own leaders, not realizing that unless we decide on a course and stick with it, we will never get anywhere. 



HTML:


[B]On the issue; last govt. have already paid for the F-16 blk-52.
If US cancel the deal than we can block indian and US transit trade which (conservative) estimate to be of value around 30 billion USD peryear.[/B]

Paying for the f16s, was done as people made money out of it. Do you think we were so naive as to not see what happened to us the last time and yet we kept on paying for the F16s that we never got, and on top of that why do you think we never took the US Govtt to the International Courts. There are lots of things that cannot be discussed on the open forum but suffice it to say that we have been run into the ground by so many people whom we regard as our heroes.As to blocking the transit trade, when you are sittingintheir lap and eating out of their handswhatever they want ot feed you,do you think your leaders have the guts to do this.Waht do you think will happen when America exerts its pressure and clamps down on your financial aid and closes its market to your produce. how much will you lose? Life doesn't flow one way, it always flows both ways.




HTML:


Count how many F-16 we can buy with this amount?


Zero. You wont buy jack if they dont give you the nod!! 



HTML:


[B]If US don't need Pakistan they will not spare a second to withhold our money but apparently this is not the case. Pakistan's military aid can be delayed but it will continue to trickel as long US plan to stay in the region.[/B]


Agreed but again case in point, what have you gotten pout of the US and what have you given away.Do you still think it was a great deal??



HTML:


All what Pakistan need to do is to hold on to Balauchistan and crack down on insurgents.


OH the naivity of it all!! Who created the so called terrorists and what was their grief with Pakistan? Do you think you are doing well with 30,000 of your forces residing yet not controlling fully the problems you have in that area. Do you honestly believe they will go away once your forces have taken over the area and restored order.What happens then?? have you ever thought of the next step. believe me if the means of provision of a livelihood are not provided to those people, you will be palying the same game again a few yrs from now!!
Baluychistanis another story of gross mismanagement of a land whose local populace has been denied their right. Do you know what Zardari was demanding as his share to release the funds that the centre owes to baluchistan?? believe me noone is taking it away, your own mismanafgemnt and kackhandedness is handing it over to any taker on a silver platter. You really need to talk to people who know what the real story is..




HTML:


[B]Alone this aurgument should help considerably to untie the knots to the riddle you present us almost every time.[/QUOTE[/B]

]
I present no riddle and no pearls of wisdom .i am like you, i express an opinion to which you may or may not agree. As it happens, and I magrateful to those that do, i have a few friends who listen to me.
WaSalam
Araz

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## BATMAN

^^Hello Mr.
I don't want to go lengths on issues which had been discussed thousand times. We don't seem to agree on political issues and i think we never will be... becasue apparently our facts and interests don't match.
Few unwaranted things from your post which i would definately like to rebut as a matter of record.
1-No one made money out of last F-16 deal.
2-I spoke of breach of agreement / sale deed once payments are made. FYI, only indian and US transit trade are subject to node.
3- Pakistan cannot afford luxuries like time and money to spend on hiring, training, arming and lodging terrorists... but as i said above, you may have reasons for your claim but i would continue to trust ISPR statements for reasons which are good to me.
Rest i withhold my reply to your false tale on Balauchistan affairs but since you seem to be quite offended for my suggestion on INSURGENTS (operating in side Baluchistan) i extend my sympathies on your sorrow state.

Lets go back to the topic. cheers


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## araz

BATMAN said:


> ^^Hello Mr.
> I don't want to go lengths on issues which had been discussed thousand times. We don't seem to agree on political issues and i think we never will be... becasue apparently our facts and interests don't match.
> Few unwaranted things from your post which i would definately like to rebut as a matter of record.
> 1-No one made money out of last F-16 deal.
> 2-I spoke of breach of agreement / sale deed once payments are made. FYI, only indian and US transit trade are subject to node.
> 3- Pakistan cannot afford luxuries like time and money to spend on hiring, training, arming and lodging terrorists... but as i said above, you may have reasons for your claim but i would continue to trust ISPR statements for reasons which are good to me.
> Rest i withhold my reply to your false tale on Balauchistan affairs but since you seem to be quite offended for my suggestion on INSURGENTS (operating in side Baluchistan) i extend my sympathies on your sorrow state.
> 
> Lets go back to the topic. cheers



Batman
I have a name , it is nice to call someone by his name. Calling someone Mr. is not considered a good thing. . However, I do not say things without reason and my sources, are sound. So lets just leave it at that. My Sorrow state as you put it is related to the state of my country for which my family and indeed i have made sacrifices in our own rights.Believe me i am not in UK by choice. You are perhaps right . we should leave things as such
WaSalam
Araz


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## Imran Khan

for both of my respected sir as we say lets agree on disagree.i love you both and don't wanna see problims between my respected loving persons. sir ARAZ and sir BATMAN finish it here .its reqest from a younger brother of both of you. thanks alot.

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## TOPGUN

I agree with Imran both you guys need to patch up .. we all are diff perhaps thats why we all have diff views and answers and thoughts so lets kill this thing here as per also request from me thx.


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## araz

TOPGUN said:


> I agree with Imran both you guys need to patch up .. we all are diff perhaps thats why we all have diff views and answers and thoughts so lets kill this thing here as per also request from me thx.



Bhai
I have no problems with batman or any other member of the forum. I would go to the extent of saying if I have said something that has annoyed Batman, i am sorry. However, I will stand by what I say and that should not be a problem to any one. This is the end of it all from me. I will not make any further posts in relation to this matter.
Araz

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## TOPGUN

araz said:


> Bhai
> I have no problems with batman or any other member of the forum. I would go to the extent of saying if I have said something that has annoyed Batman, i am sorry. However, I will stand by what I say and that should not be a problem to any one. This is the end of it all from me. I will not make any further posts in relation to this matter.
> Araz



Understood brother .. i respect that


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## mean_bird

PAF F-16D with JHMCS







Also note the F-35 in the background


picture credit to M. Asif. 
Xposted from pakdef

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## DANGER-ZONE

mean_bird said:


> PAF F-16D with JHMCS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also note the F-35 in the background
> 
> 
> picture credit to M. Asif.
> Xposted from pakdef



yup this is what pilot is wearing 








u can see this here as well

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## DANGER-ZONE

*what the hek Morocco air force copy,the PAF f16 camo.
basicly offered by Lockheed martin* 
isnt it there any copyright rule for this.


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## Aeri-Eye

One question, a bit off topic but i can't seem to find any other place to ask this question.

Our old F-16s are suppose to go through MLU's, i have been hearing this since last 2-3 years. PAF is going to spend around $2bln (right?) on this project but yet not a single aircraft has gone through MLU (is it?). When is this project going to complete? How long is it going to take?


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## DANGER-ZONE

Aeri-Eye said:


> One question, a bit off topic but i can't seem to find any other place to ask this question.
> 
> Our old F-16s are suppose to go through MLU's, i have been hearing this since last 2-3 years. PAF is going to spend around $2bln (right?) on this project but yet not a single aircraft has gone through MLU (is it?). When is this project going to complete? How long is it going to take?




*PAF F-16B block 15 #82603 is touching down on the runway at Lajes AFB on its way from Pakistan to the US for its MLU conversion. [Photo by Fabio Rocha]*


*PAF F-16A block 15 #84713 and F-16B block 15 #82603 are parked ont he tarmac at Lajes AFB during their stopover enroute to the US. [Photo by Fabio Rocha]
*

i think it will end till 2012.


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## Barrett

Aeri-Eye said:


> One question, a bit off topic but i can't seem to find any other place to ask this question.
> 
> Our old F-16s are suppose to go through MLU's, i have been hearing this since last 2-3 years. PAF is going to spend around $2bln (right?) on this project but yet not a single aircraft has gone through MLU (is it?). When is this project going to complete? How long is it going to take?




PAF - F-16 Block 15 will undergo MLU from TAI starting Oct 2010. (One per month)

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## ice_man

danger-zone said:


> *PAF F-16B block 15 #82603 is touching down on the runway at Lajes AFB on its way from Pakistan to the US for its MLU conversion. [Photo by Fabio Rocha]*
> 
> 
> *PAF F-16A block 15 #84713 and F-16B block 15 #82603 are parked ont he tarmac at Lajes AFB during their stopover enroute to the US. [Photo by Fabio Rocha]
> *
> 
> i think it will end till 2012.



ok i am confused we got fighters from the US last june i guess...i thought ALL our F-16s were going to be delivered to us then sent Turkey for MLUs....now i am confused looking at the pics why are we sending them back to US....? the MLU business is getting confusing


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## araz

ice_man said:


> ok i am confused we got fighters from the US last june i guess...i thought ALL our F-16s were going to be delivered to us then sent Turkey for MLUs....now i am confused looking at the pics why are we sending them back to US....? the MLU business is getting confusing



As no Bl15 fighters have yet undergone the MLU typethat we have requested, the first 4 aircrafts are being done in USA. Once they have been tested and found to be working appropriately, the rest of the fighters will be dealt with in Turkey. 4 aircrafts are currently in US and due to return in 2011
Araz

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## nightrider_saulat

araz said:


> As no Bl15 fighters have yet undergone the MLU typethat we have requested, the first 4 aircrafts are being done in USA. Once they have been tested and found to be working appropriately, the rest of the fighters will be dealt with in Turkey. 4 aircrafts are currently in US and due to return in 2011
> Araz



*doest HMD(helmet mounted display) gives pilot some edge to gain superiority over enemy aircraft in a dogfight*


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## TaimiKhan

nightrider_saulat said:


> *doest HMD(helmet mounted display) gives pilot some edge to gain superiority over enemy aircraft in a dogfight*



Yes it does, read up this Helmet mounted display - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia will give you a good idea, how it helps a pilot overall.


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## mean_bird

*Contract for F-16 Training for PAF *

Lockheed Martin Corp., Lockheed Martin Simulator, training and support, Orlando, Fla., was awarded a $7,190,146 modification to a firm fixed price contract to provide Type I special training (operations and maintenance) for the government of Pakistan in support of their F-16 program. At this time, $6,115,480 has been obligated. AETC/CONS/LGCI, Randolph AFB, Texas is the contracting authority (FA3002-06-G-0001, Call 0014, Modification 02).

http://www.defpro.com/news/details/12854/

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## mean_bird

Edit: Double post, please delete.


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## nightrider_saulat

taimikhan said:


> Yes it does, read up this Helmet mounted display - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia will give you a good idea, how it helps a pilot overall.



thanks for your info sir!


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## fatman17

araz said:


> As no Bl15 fighters have yet undergone the MLU typethat we have requested, the first 4 aircrafts are being done in USA. Once they have been tested and found to be working appropriately, the rest of the fighters will be dealt with in Turkey. 4 aircrafts are currently in US and due to return in 2011
> Araz



these 4 a/c are called 'pattern' a/c for the MLU. the others will follow suit in accordance to this MLU.

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## fatman17

*Pakistani F-16C in flight test at Fort Worth:*

The 1st PAF F-16C block 52, 10901 (c/n JE-1, USAF/07-0001), is undertaking test flights from LM's Fort Worth facility, Texas on December 17. This was the 1st time a PAF single-seat aircraft has been noted, although the first PAF two-seat F-16D has been in flight test since September 29-2009.

AFM News

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## Arsalan

desperate to see them roaring in Pak skies!!!

regards!


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## araz

arsalanaslam123 said:


> desperate to see them roaring in Pak skies!!!
> 
> regards!



Unfortunately , if we go by published info, the MLUs will be the last ones to come in 2011.
Araz


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## nightrider_saulat

araz said:


> Unfortunately , if we go by published info, the MLUs will be the last ones to come in 2011.
> Araz



please provide any source for this
previously we have heard that PAF's all 45 F-16s will be MLUed by the end of 2014


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## araz

nightrider_saulat said:


> please provide any source for this
> previously we have heard that PAF's all 45 F-16s will be MLUed by the end of 2014



Saulat
The info is in the forum. Unfortunately, and I dont want to sound prudish, I dont have the time to dig it out. But the time line for these MLUs which have gone to USA is 2011. If TAI starts MLUing our aircrafts in 2010 ,it will still take 48 months for full fleet toMLU, if I rememeber corrrectly I am sorry i cant be any more halp at the moment.
Araz


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## nightrider_saulat

araz said:


> Saulat
> The info is in the forum. Unfortunately, and I dont want to sound prudish, I dont have the time to dig it out. But the time line for these MLUs which have gone to USA is 2011. If TAI starts MLUing our aircrafts in 2010 ,it will still take 48 months for full fleet toMLU, if I rememeber corrrectly I am sorry i cant be any more halp at the moment.
> Araz



what i have heard that is that TAI has won the contract for 41 falcons
where the rest 4 are in USA for MLU,but at this time i want to know 
by which time those 4 will be MLUed completely and will be available in pakistan
please tell me sir!


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## DANGER-ZONE

again fighting for nothing.leave MLU guys.


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## araz

nightrider_saulat said:


> what i have heard that is that TAI has won the contract for 41 falcons
> where the rest 4 are in USA for MLU,but at this time i want to know
> by which time those 4 will be MLUed completely and will be available in pakistan
> please tell me sir!



Again read my post .2011 is the date given.
Araz


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

YEP.. 4 ARE ALREADY IN AMERICA.. PAKISTAN IS LOOKING FOR DOZEN MORE.....


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## Tomahawk

Just heard on Dunya News; ACM has said that Pakistan will receive 14 new F-16 fighter jets from US by end of June this year.

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## nightrider_saulat

i am keeping my fingers twist!


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## Super Falcon

welll and are they coming withs JDAMS bunker busters air to air AMRAAM


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## Dazzler

Yes they are coming with all the goodies bundled in a package, good news as this will be a boost for the PAF.


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## mean_bird

Tomahawk said:


> Just heard on Dunya News; ACM has said that Pakistan will receive 14 new F-16 fighter jets from US by end of June this year.



Thats a false/misleading statement.

PAF will *start *receiving the blk 52 F-16 from June, but not all 14 of them will arrive in June. Here's the schedule of the F-16s blk 52+ that PAF had purchased:

*four aircraft will be ready in June 2010;*
*four aircraft in August 2010;
[*]five aircraft in october 2010; four aircraft in Dec 2010;
[*]and, one aircraft in December 2011.*

As far as the "goodies" are concerned, we have


*500 AIM-120C-5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);
[*]750 Mark-84 2000 lb General Purpose bombs;
[*]700 BLU-109 2000 lb Penetrator bombs;
[*]500 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) tail kits;
[*]1600 Enhanced Guided Bomb Unit 3 (EGBU) kits;
[*]and assorted bomb fuzes and support equipment.*

These weapons will be* available for delivery* to Pakistan *beginning in June 2010. * Just as a side note, the 500 AIM 120C-5 is the largest single purchase of AMRAAMS by any foreign country.

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## mean_bird

The first four MLU aircraft are undergoing work in Fort Worth, Texas as of now. *The schedule for delivery of these aircraft is December 2011*. The rest of the MLU, as we know, will be done at TAI, Turkey.

The MLU upgrade kits will include (in addition to STAR structural upgrade):

*
APG-68(V)9 radar;
Embedded GPS/INS (EGI);
Link-16 data link;
APX-113 Advanced Identify Friend or Foe (AIFF);
Color Cockpit with Color Moving Map;
ALQ- 211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) Pod;
Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) Cockpit and External Lighting;
Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod;
oint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS);
Reconnaissance Pod capability;
improved avionics systems;
JDAM capability;
EGBU capability;
AIM-120 AMRAAM capability;
and AGM-84 Harpoon capability.
*
Key differences between MLU and new F-16 blk 52 that we have purchased

*
no improvements to the Block 15 mission range 
no improvements to the Block 15 loiter time
no engine improvements
no improvements to payload capacity.
*
*In short, no extra hardpoints/capacity and no engine improvement. Avionics wise same as blk 52.*

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

80 Apache Helicopters would do wonders, just the other day one of our cobras went down 

We need solid help in that area imagine 30-40 helicopters helping out patrol the worst taliban areas???


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## Aeri-Eye

I hope none of the F-16s are installed with secret devices monitoring their movement, data etc. Otherwise they would be useless as Uncle Sam probably won't be backing us in any future war with India. I am seriously praying that these birds are *not* installed with secret devices. Not trying to say PAF is too dumb or that it can't work out but let's face it, these Yanks are far ahead of us in technology so therefore the risks are always there!

PS: I heard these new birds can't fly to any country without US permission? Is is this just a rumour or true? If true, then i hope this is our last deal with US. We should now start looking forward to Chinese or other western countries stuff.


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## Chanakyaa

mean_bird said:


> Thats a false/misleading statement.
> 
> PAF will *start *receiving the blk 52 F-16 from June, but not all 14 of them will arrive in June. Here's the schedule of the F-16s blk 52+ that PAF had purchased:
> 
> *four aircraft will be ready in June 2010;*
> *four aircraft in August 2010;
> [*]five aircraft in october 2010; four aircraft in Dec 2010;
> [*]and, one aircraft in December 2011.*
> 
> As far as the "goodies" are concerned, we have
> 
> 
> *500 AIM-120C-5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);
> [*]750 Mark-84 2000 lb General Purpose bombs;
> [*]700 BLU-109 2000 lb Penetrator bombs;
> [*]500 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) tail kits;
> [*]1600 Enhanced Guided Bomb Unit 3 (EGBU) kits;
> [*]and assorted bomb fuzes and support equipment.*
> 
> These weapons will be* available for delivery* to Pakistan *beginning in June 2010. * Just as a side note, the 500 AIM 120C-5 is the largest single purchase of AMRAAMS by any foreign country.



Thats a lot of Fire Power.
Congrats PAF !

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## owais.usmani

mean_bird said:


> Thats a false/misleading statement.
> 
> PAF will *start *receiving the blk 52 F-16 from June, but not all 14 of them will arrive in June. Here's the schedule of the F-16s blk 52+ that PAF had purchased:
> 
> *four aircraft will be ready in June 2010;*
> *four aircraft in August 2010;
> [*]five aircraft in october 2010; four aircraft in Dec 2010;
> [*]and, one aircraft in December 2011.*
> 
> As far as the "goodies" are concerned, we have
> 
> 
> *500 AIM-120C-5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);
> [*]750 Mark-84 2000 lb General Purpose bombs;
> [*]700 BLU-109 2000 lb Penetrator bombs;
> [*]500 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) tail kits;
> [*]1600 Enhanced Guided Bomb Unit 3 (EGBU) kits;
> [*]and assorted bomb fuzes and support equipment.*
> 
> These weapons will be* available for delivery* to Pakistan *beginning in June 2010. * Just as a side note, the 500 AIM 120C-5 is the largest single purchase of AMRAAMS by any foreign country.



The "goodies" also include *300 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Missiles.*


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## AVIAN

Aeri-Eye said:


> I hope none of the F-16s are installed with secret devices monitoring their movement, data etc. Otherwise they would be useless as Uncle Sam probably won't be backing us in any future war with India. I am seriously praying that these birds are *not* installed with secret devices. Not trying to say PAF is too dumb or that it can't work out but let's face it, these Yanks are far ahead of us in technology so therefore the risks are always there!
> 
> PS: I heard these new birds can't fly to any country without US permission? Is is this just a rumour or true? If true, then i hope this is our last deal with US. We should now start looking forward to Chinese or other western countries stuff.




May be this is a chance because either way this F-16 are part of the foreign aid and hence some of the sort of obligation will likely to be put on PAF for its use.


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## Sunny4pak

When these birds will be here in Pakistan then we will see......
from now its doubtful.............. the history speaks???

Regards,
Sunny


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## DESERT FIGHTER

AVIAN said:


> May be this is a chance because either way this F-16 are part of the foreign aid and hence some of the sort of obligation will likely to be put on PAF for its use.



Boy they are not coming in aid.They are being bought.So dont get all fluffy.And there is no such thing as secret devices thats just a retarded rumor.And i think 18 not 14 are coming plus option for more are still on table.


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## PakistaniPhysco

These are directly under FMS..Not under any sort of AID.

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## fatman17

mods can this be merged in F-16 discussions 'sticky'

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## pkd

ISLAMABAD  Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman Thursday said that Pakistan will take delivery of 14 F-16 jet fighters from America by June this year. 
Briefing the visiting Senates Standing Committee on Defence and Defence production about operational preparedness and air defence system, PAF chief said that more new jet fighters and missiles would be inducted in the fleet. The Air Chief also informed the Standing Committee about skills of PAF in recent war against terrorism in Swat and Malakand.
Speaking on the occasion, Chairman of the Standing committee, Lt Gen (Retd) Javed Ashraf Qazi expressed his full satisfaction over PAFs preparedness to meet any eventuality.
He assured the air chief that the committee would do its best to make sure that PAF gets adequate funds from the government to continue with its development programme.


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## razgriz19

mean_bird said:


> Thats a false/misleading statement.
> 
> PAF will *start *receiving the blk 52 F-16 from June, but not all 14 of them will arrive in June. Here's the schedule of the F-16s blk 52+ that PAF had purchased:
> 
> *four aircraft will be ready in June 2010;*
> *four aircraft in August 2010;
> [*]five aircraft in october 2010; four aircraft in Dec 2010;
> [*]and, one aircraft in December 2011.*
> 
> As far as the "goodies" are concerned, we have
> 
> 
> *500 AIM-120C-5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);
> [*]750 Mark-84 2000 lb General Purpose bombs;
> [*]700 BLU-109 2000 lb Penetrator bombs;
> [*]500 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) tail kits;
> [*]1600 Enhanced Guided Bomb Unit 3 (EGBU) kits;
> [*]and assorted bomb fuzes and support equipment.*
> 
> These weapons will be* available for delivery* to Pakistan *beginning in June 2010. * *Just as a side note, the 500 AIM 120C-5 is the largest single purchase of AMRAAMS by any foreign country*.


they bought it large number because if we face sanctions again then atleast we would have a reliable BVR in our pocket....


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## Super Falcon

welll with JDAMS i think paf ground firepower teeth's got more sharpened


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## rizhussain44

> four aircraft will be ready in June 2010;
> four aircraft in August 2010;
> *five aircraft in october 2010; four aircraft in Dec 2010;
> [*]and, one aircraft in December 2011.*



Didn't get why the last delivery of one air craft is after 1 whole year? or is that date a typo?


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## ice_man

AVIAN said:


> May be this is a chance because either way this F-16 are part of the foreign aid and hence some of the sort of obligation will likely to be put on PAF for its use.



 i bet u r one of those youtube warriors who writes on youtube pakistan will get destroyed pakistan is finished! pakistan is a beggar! & we pakistanis are lucky to be able to use internet!!!good for you!!! keep thinking that *WHATEVER MAKES YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT!* 

thank god you don't represent all of india or indians! there are some real wise people on this forum from your country that show me that YOU are a small lot on the other side of the border!


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## DMLA

> 1600 Enhanced Guided Bomb Unit 3 (EGBU) kits



We should really appreciate the importance of the GBU's. The number suggests that PAF might be looking at using these for anti-armour role as was shown by the americans in the gulf. It could also pose a major challenge for indian forces close to the border including artillary and armoured infantry.


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## DANGER-ZONE

i have a new issue to be discussed.
1-MULTIPLE WRACK FOR BVR MISSILE FOR F16 MLU & BLOCK 52.
2-JSOW(although few members here believe that PAF is getting them but i never saw it mentioned in official detail of weapon package for PAF released by USA)


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## DANGER-ZONE

what the heck is this..


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## araz

pkd said:


> ISLAMABAD * Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman Thursday said that Pakistan will take delivery of 14 F-16 jet fighters from America by June this year. *
> Briefing the visiting Senates Standing Committee on Defence and Defence production about operational preparedness and air defence system, PAF chief said that more new jet fighters and missiles would be inducted in the fleet. The Air Chief also informed the Standing Committee about skills of PAF in recent war against terrorism in Swat and Malakand.
> Speaking on the occasion, Chairman of the Standing committee, Lt Gen (Retd) Javed Ashraf Qazi expressed his full satisfaction over PAFs preparedness to meet any eventuality.
> He assured the air chief that the committee would do its best to make sure that PAF gets adequate funds from the government to continue with its development programme.




Is this a typo or typical pakistani press release. all 14 in June???? What hads changed???
Araz


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## fatman17

araz said:


> Is this a typo or typical pakistani press release. all 14 in June???? What hads changed???
> Araz



news is erroneous! the a/c will be delivered in batches of 4ea.


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## fatman17

^^^there is some speculation in the press that besides the delivery of F-16 C/D Blk 52s (which is going to be in batches of 4 ea), the USN may have finally agreed to 'release' the 14 F-16 A/B Blk 15s which were 'embargoed' and are currently 'in use' with the USN.

14 F-16 A/Bs Blk 15s have already been delivered to the PAF between 2007-09 which were also part of the 28 a/c embargoed.

yesterday our ambassador to the US also made s similar statement saying 14 a/c will be delivered by june 2010 - did not specify what blk!

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## Myth_buster_1

fatman17 said:


> ^^^there is some speculation in the press that besides the delivery of F-16 C/D Blk 52s (which is going to be in batches of 4 ea), the USN may have finally agreed to 'release' the 14 F-16 A/B Blk 15s which were 'embargoed' and are currently 'in use' with the USN.
> 
> 14 F-16 A/Bs Blk 15s have already been delivered to the PAF between 2007-09 which were also part of the 28 a/c embargoed.
> 
> yesterday our ambassador to the US also made s similar statement saying 14 a/c will be delivered by june 2010 - did not specify what blk!



could it be 4 block 52 and 10 ex USN block 15? 
IMO 28 block 15 that US has or is about to release will be given MLU M4/5 upgrades and 32 block 15 that are in service with PAF since 94 will be given MLU M3. Thats why we know only 32 will be given MLU M3.


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## fatman17

Growler said:


> *could it be 4 block 52 and 10 ex USN block 15? *IMO 28 block 15 that US has or is about to release will be given MLU M4/5 upgrades and 32 block 15 that are in service with PAF since 94 will be given MLU M3. Thats why we know only 32 will be given MLU M3.



possible !!!


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## SBD-3

Growler said:


> could it be 4 block 52 and 10 ex USN block 15?
> IMO 28 block 15 that US has or is about to release will be given MLU M4/5 upgrades and 32 block 15 that are in service with PAF since 94 will be given MLU M3. Thats why we know only 32 will be given MLU M3.



its a miracle......you haven't talked about rafale....
(just joking- not to be taken seriously)


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## Arsalan

it will be the first four that are to be deleivered in June and the next two batches of four planes will follow in the same year. 
it is the same schedual that we have been discussing for quite some time now and i dont find any thing new in it...
my apologize if i have missed some post!!!

regards!


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## truepakistani17

i hope this June will stay as June 2010!!!

look it is not a blind enemity against US but this is what we have experienced in past!!!!

thanks!


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## DANGER-ZONE

what is this PAF f16 blk-52 model fitted with AIM-9X 
aim-120 at wing tip and next to it is aim-9x.can any body explain..?


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## BlackenTheSky




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## Super Falcon

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAi3IjaSCXA&feature=related


welll seems like this is indian sick guy who made this video calling SU 30 MKI better than F22 and raptor and he says that it is better than pakistan's and china's F 16 can any one tell me do china ever used any F 16 no and what he says next that russia do not sell its figter jets to any country other than india not even china so from where china got SU 27 SU 30MKK can anyone tell me russia also sold these fighter SU 30 to half os globe not just india seems this guy is living in dreams


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Super Falcon said:


> http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAi3IjaSCXA&feature=related
> 
> 
> welll seems like this is indian sick guy who made this video calling SU 30 MKI better than F22 and raptor and he says that it is better than pakistan's and china's F 16 can any one tell me do china ever used any F 16 no and what he says next that russia do not sell its figter jets to any country other than india not even china so from where china got SU 27 SU 30MKK can anyone tell me russia also sold these fighter SU 30 to half os globe not just india seems this guy is living in dreams


Sensationalist garbage. Common commodity from those people. By the way, China never has operated F16s, so that by default negates the worth of this video. I wouldn't be suprised if we let them check ours out so to speak, but as far as them being operators, it's never been so. Amazingly, some people watch these vids and believe everything they see and read. Moving along......!


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## unicorn148

Super Falcon said:


> http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAi3IjaSCXA&feature=related
> 
> 
> welll seems like this is indian sick guy who made this video calling SU 30 MKI better than F22 and raptor and he says that it is better than pakistan's and china's F 16 can any one tell me do china ever used any F 16 no and what he says next that russia do not sell its figter jets to any country other than india not even china so from where china got SU 27 SU 30MKK can anyone tell me russia also sold these fighter SU 30 to half os globe not just india seems this guy is living in dreams



yes you are correct but su 30mki is the most superior of the su30 family


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## DANGER-ZONE

danger-zone said:


> what is this PAF f16 blk-52 model fitted with AIM-9X
> aim-120 at wing tip and next to it is aim-9x.can any body explain..?



will any one note this thing out...
please


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## Dazzler

@Unicorn

Ever heard of SU-30 MKM ?


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

danger-zone said:


> will any one note this thing out...
> please



pakistan is getting aim-9m not aim-9x.....
we should have gone for aim-9x cos r-73/74 archer is way better than aim-9m... 
pakistan is getting 200 aim-9m


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## sancho

nabil_05 said:


> @Unicorn
> 
> Ever heard of SU-30 MKM ?


The MKM is a MKI with some more European techs instead of the Israeli that the MKI has, especially not the EWS which is the normal Russian in the MKM.

IRKUT Corporation :: Press Release Archives :: THE FIRST TWO SERIALLY PRODUCED Su-30MKM FIGHTERS FOR THE ROYAL MALAYSIAN AIR FORCE HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED 


Regarding PAFs new F16s, any new news about the CFTs?


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## Dazzler

MKM has many new technologies included on request of Malaysian Air force, similar to what India did with MKI, either way, point is that you cannot call MKI the ultimate SU-30 variant when MKM is around.
Block 52s will come with CFTs which is a standard fit for all advanced blk 52 configuration.


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## DANGER-ZONE

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> pakistan is getting aim-9m not aim-9x.....
> we should have gone for aim-9x cos r-73/74 archer is way better than aim-9m...
> pakistan is getting 200 aim-9m



buddy i posted that picture b/c that f16 model of PAf is fitted with AIM-9x.......i wan to know y?
i know very well that PAF is getting Aim-9m not x.well take a look at that pic again.


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## sancho

nabil_05 said:


> MKM has many new technologies included on request of Malaysian Air force, similar to what India did with MKI, either way, point is that you cannot call MKI the ultimate SU-30 variant when MKM is around.
> Block 52s will come with CFTs which is a standard fit for all advanced blk 52 configuration.


As I said, the MKM *is a MKI* without the Israeli techs! They replaced most of it with French techs, the only techs that the MKI don't has yet, are the MAWS and LWS, but that won't equalise the advantage on the Israeli EWS right? It is definitely the closest MK version, but technically the MKI will remain the best, especially after the upg. 

However, I know that the B52s will get CFTs, but are there any new news about what CFTs it will be? The normal, or the new one with retractable refueling probe, that are on offer in MMRCA too. Would be a good addition for PAFs new B52s and they wouldn't need a special tanker anymore.


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## hazi

Just a pic of a F-16 i though you guys would enjoy!

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## Super Falcon

welll post some more pics it willl be appritaited


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## Luftwaffe




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## hazi

http://schema-root.org/military/weapons/aircraft/fighters/f-16/f-16.jpg

http://www.norad.mil/Images/Images_2007/F-16_ANG_SanFran_large.jpg

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/f-16i/f-16I_5.jpg

http://defense-update.com/images/F-16F-takeoff.jpg

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_F-16Ds_Greece_Break_lg.jpg


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## mean_bird

APG68v9 radar used in PAF F-16 blk 50/52+






The APG68v9 radar can simultaneously track upto four targets and boasts a synthetic aperture radar (SAR) processing capabilities. In addition, the radar also has auto-calibration capabilities and interactive interference filtering. The so-called auto-calibration capability means that the radar could be the aircraft inertial navigation systems for continuous automated calibration; while the interaction interference filter is to make band radio frequency interference to a minimum, thereby significantly improve the radar anti-jamming capability.

http://military.ouhua.info/warhistory/2010/02/24/1210158_6.html

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## Thomas

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> pakistan is getting aim-9m not aim-9x.....



I could be wrong but doesn't the AIM9-X require slightly different avionics?


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## Arsalan

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> pakistan is getting aim-9m not aim-9x.....
> we should have gone for aim-9x cos r-73/74 archer is way better than aim-9m...
> pakistan is getting 200 aim-9m



whatever it would be it is bound to come by mid of this year,,
hopefull it does!!

regards!


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

danger-zone said:


> buddy i posted that picture b/c that f16 model of PAf is fitted with AIM-9x.......i wan to know y?
> i know very well that PAF is getting Aim-9m not x.well take a look at that pic again.



dear i was also 1st confused after watching that pic but reality is that we are getting m not the x....


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## Arsalan

the AIM9X is a great leap forward to the aim9m that we will be getting. Considering that if we really are US best frined and strong ally we must have tried for AIM9X indeed.
here is some description from not so authentic source, that is, wikipedia but trust me it is fine enough when it comes to such less detiled description of systems. i mean no one bothers to edit such harmless info....  so here you go!!



> *AIM9M*
> The M model has improved capability against infrared countermeasures, enhanced background discrimination capability, and a reduced-smoke rocket motor. These modifications increase its ability to locate and lock-on to a target and decrease the missile's chances for detection. Deliveries of the initial AIM-9M-1 began in 1982. The only changes from the AIM-9L to the AIM-9M were related to the Guidance Control Section (GCS). Several models were introduced in pairs with even numbers designating Navy versions and odd for USAF: AIM-9M-2/3, AIM-9M-4/5, and AIM-9M-6/7 which was rushed to the Persian Gulf area during Desert Shield to address specific threats expected to be present. The AIM-9M-8/9 incorporated replacement of five circuit cards and the related parentboard to update infrared counter counter measures (IRCCM) capability to improve 9M capability against the latest threat IRCM. The first AIM-9M-8/9 modifications, fielded in 1995, involved deskinning the guidance section and substitution of circuit cards at the depot level, which is labor intensive and expensiveas well as removing missiles from inventory during the upgrade period. The AIM-9X concept is to use reprogrammable software to permit upgrades without disassembly.



regards!


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## Arsalan

> *AIM9X*
> After looking at advanced short range missile designs during the AIM portion of the ACEVAL/AIMVAL Joint Test and Evaluation at Nellis AFB in the 1974-78 timeframe, the Air Force and Navy agreed on the need for the Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile AMRAAM. But agreement over development of an Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile ASRAAM was problematic and disagreement between the Air Force and Navy over design concepts (Air Force had developed AIM-82 and Navy had flight-tested Agile and flown it in AIMVAL). Congress eventually insisted the services work on a Joint effort and AIM-9M became the result thereby compromising without exploring the improved off boresight and kinematic capability potential offered by Agile. In 1985, the Soviet Union did field a SRM (AA-11 Archer/R-73) that was very similar to Agile. At that point, the Soviet Union took the lead in SRM technology and correspondingly fielded improved IRCM to defeat or reduce the effectiveness of the latest Sidewinders. As relations improved in the aftermath of the Soviet Union, the West became aware of how potent both the AA-11 and IRCM were and SRM requirements were readdressed.
> For a brief period in the late '80s, an ASRAAM effort led by a European consortium was in play under a MOA with the United States in which AMRAAM development would be led by the US and ASRAAM by the Europeans. The UK working with the aft end of the ASRAAM and Germany developing the seeker (Germany had first hand experience improving the Sidewinder seeker of the AIM-9J/AIM-9F). By 1990, technical and funding issues had stymied ASRAAM and the problem appeared stalled so in light of the threat of AA-11 and improved IRCM, the US embarked on determining requirements for AIM-9X as a counter to both the AA-11 and improving the IRCCM features. The first draft of the requirement was ready by 1991 and the primary competitors were Raytheon and Hughes. Later, the UK resolved to revive the ASRAAM development and selected Hughes to provide the seeker technology in the form of a high off-boresight capable Focal Plane Array. However, the UK did not choose to improve the turning kinematic capability of ASRAAM to compete with AA-11. As part of the AIM-9X program the US conducted a foreign cooperative test of the ASRAAM seeker to evaluate its potential and an advanced version featuring improved kinematics was proposed as part of the AIM-9X competition. In the end, the Hughes evolved Sidewinder design featuring virtually the same seeker as used by ASRAAM was selected as the winner.



what is more imortant is that:



> The AIM-9X Sidewinder, developed by Raytheon engineers, entered service in November 2003 with the USAF (lead platform is the F-15C; the USN lead platform is the F/A-18C) and is a substantial upgrade to the Sidewinder family featuring an imaging infrared focal plane array (FPA) seeker with claimed 90&#176; off-boresight capability, compatibility with helmet-mounted displays such as the new U.S. Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System, and a totally new three-dimensional thrust-vectoring control (TVC) system providing increased turn capability over traditional control surfaces. Utilizing the JHMCS, a pilot can control the AIM-9X missile by simply looking at a target, thereby increasing air combat effectiveness. It retains the same rocket motor, fuze and warhead of the "Mike," but its lower drag gives it improved range and speed. AIM-9X also includes an internal cooling system eliminating the need for use of nitrogen bottles (U.S. Navy and Marines) in the launch rail or argon internal bottle (USAF). It also features an electronic safe and arm device similar to the AMRAAM allowing reduction in minimum range and reprogrammable InfraRed Counter Counter Measures (IRCCM) capability that coupled with the FPA provide improved look down into clutter and performance against the latest IRCM. Though not part of the original requirement, AIM-9X has demonstrated a Lock on After Launch capability, allowing for possible internal use for the F-35, F-22 Raptor and even in a submarine launched configuration for use against ASW platforms. Combined with the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System this delivers combined kill ratios exceeding 50:1 against nonhigh-off-boresight equipped fighters.
> 
> *As of September 2008, Raytheon has delivered 3,000 AIM-9X missiles to the armed services and has begun testing the Block II version of the missile.The Block II adds lock on after launch and a datalink so the missile can be launched first and then directed to its target afterwards by an aircraft with the proper equipment for 360 degree engagements, such as the F-35 and F-22*.



also there are some more important advantage, like:


> China Lake experimented with Sidewinder in the air-to-ground mode including use as an anti-tank weapon. Starting from 2008, *the AIM-9X demonstrated its ability as a successful light air to ground missile*.



so i could not guess why the US are not supporting there closest ally??

regards!


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## Thomas

arsalanaslam123 said:


> so i could not guess why the US are not supporting there closest ally??



The AIM 9-X has not been produced in large enough numbers yet is my guess. After the U.S. NATO countries would get priority. The missile is an effective deterrent though to the Su-30. It negates the Su-30 thrust vectoring ability to a certain extent.

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## DANGER-ZONE

some people are not getting the point...watch this picture of f16 model of PAF.

PAF f16 blk-52 model fitted with AIM-9X 
aim-120 at wing tip and next to it is aim-9x.can any body explain..?


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## TaimiKhan

Its just a model at an defence exhibition. 

LM guys may be trying their latest missiles in the show and they put it on the F-16 model which had Pakistan flag as the show was in Pakistan. I bet the same model without the flag would have been used in another country. 

Marketing techniques. The model doesn't means we have bought them or are gonna get them soon.


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## Arsalan

taimikhan said:


> Its just a model at an defence exhibition.
> 
> LM guys may be trying their latest missiles in the show and they put it on the F-16 model which had Pakistan flag as the show was in Pakistan. I bet the same model without the flag would have been used in another country.
> 
> Marketing techniques. The model doesn't means we have bought them or are gonna get them soon.



i guess the above post by tamimkhan explains it all. the model by no means assure that we are getting the AIM9X especially when it is claimed by officials that we are going to get Aim9M!!

i hope you are clear now!

regards!


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## Azam Eagle

Please any one tell me how many total number of aircrafts PAF is currently operating.
f-16s
mirage
f-7
c-130
please tell.........


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## Arsalan

Azam Eagle said:


> Please any one tell me how many total number of aircrafts PAF is currently operating.
> f-16s
> mirage
> f-7
> c-130
> please tell.........



F16 43 plus the newly arriving blk52z
mirage III-----------121 (ROSE I)
mirage V------------60 (ROSE II and ROSE III)
F-7------------------192 out of these 42 anr F-7P
C-130---------------18

these are not exact numbers and can differ by plus minus four to five planes.
you might Google this list and you can find them every where on net!!
these are the thing that you should try to search for yourself on net as it is then that you might come accross a lot of other intresting information!!
i hope you understand!!

regards!


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## DANGER-ZONE

thanks arsalan bro...welcome bak to PDF


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## Arsalan

danger-zone said:


> thanks arsalan bro...welcome bak to PDF



well you can always hit at thanks tab to say it....
moreover your welcom back may turn into a good bye soon as i might not be able to keep the same commitment to the forum as my vaccations are ending from friday!!

regards!

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## DANGER-ZONE




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## Kompromat

are we getting JHMCS and also plz tell what is the range od AIM 9x or M ?


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## TaimiKhan

Black blood said:


> are we getting JHMCS and also plz tell what is the range od AIM 9x or M ?



Well yeah JHMCS is coming with Blk 52s and the range of M series is somewhere 18Km and for the X model somewhere above 35+KM slated.

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## Myth_buster_1

taimikhan said:


> Well yeah JHMCS is coming with Blk 52s and the range of M series is somewhere 18Km and for the X model somewhere above 35+KM slated.



MICA IR has about the same range as AIM-9X if not a bit more.


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## rizhussain44

taimikhan said:


> Well yeah JHMCS is coming with Blk 52s and the range of M series is somewhere 18Km and for the X model somewhere above 35+KM slated.



What about the MLU kits that we are getting, do we have JHMCS included in those for the planes undergoing MLU?


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## Myth_buster_1

rizhussain44 said:


> What about the MLU kits that we are getting, do we have JHMCS included in those for the planes undergoing MLU?



Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits - $1.3 billion

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:

* APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar;
** Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);*
* AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
* AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
* Have Quick I/II Radios;
* Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT);
* SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
* Reconnaissance pod capability;
* Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (for training);

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## TaimiKhan

rizhussain44 said:


> What about the MLU kits that we are getting, do we have JHMCS included in those for the planes undergoing MLU?



Well if they are gonna go to Blk 52 standard, the JHMCS would be able to work with them, it depends if PAF orders them and the US gives them.

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## Kompromat

One question in my mind: Is there going to be any Significant structural changes to the air frame ie Dorsal spine or possible CFT's ??


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## TaimiKhan

Black blood said:


> One question in my mind: Is there going to be any Significant structural changes to the air frame ie Dorsal spine or possible CFT's ??



Not sure about CFTs, but in the MLUs there would be no dorsal spine as per my read so far. Normal body design with some structural upgrades, but the electronically a lot of things rather nearly fully would be changed.

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## Kompromat

i think we need a bit of study on Chilean MLU's.


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## Myth_buster_1

i am curious to find out if our MLU are going to be have MAW system which means change in structure.


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## araz

Black blood said:


> One question in my mind: Is there going to be any Significant structural changes to the air frame ie Dorsal spine or possible CFT's ??



The answer is no to both your querries.
Araz


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## BlackenTheSky



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## fatman17

extract from AFM March-2010 issue

*Arizona F-16s - Forging Friendships*

....the international training mission came to arizona in 1989.....the largest of the wings three squadrons is the most diverse.Pilots of the 195th Fighter Squadron 'the warhawks' fly 29 blk 25 F-16s to train students from Norway, Pakistan, Poland and Singapore.

....and they are always getting more students. The Pakistan Training Program is the Wing's newest. The first eight Pakistani students arrived in Tucson in October 2009. As experienced F-16A blk 15 pilots, the students came to the 195th to get C-model training in order to fly the blk 52s recently purchased by Pakistan.

"we are traing these eight pilots so that they can return home and be instructor's themselves and teach others to fly the new F-16s"...."even though we are training them on blk 25s they will still be able to operate their blk 52s back home. when they leave here, they will get training from Lockheed-Martin in Texas on the differences"......"the two blks fly the same, its essentially the employment of weapons that makes the difference".....

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## sonicboom

fatman17 said:


> extract from AFM March-2010 issue
> 
> *Arizona F-16s - Forging Friendships*
> 
> ....the international training mission came to arizona in 1989.....the largest of the wings three squadrons is the most diverse.Pilots of the 195th Fighter Squadron 'the warhawks' fly 29 blk 25 F-16s to train students from Norway, Pakistan, Poland and Singapore.
> 
> ....and they are always getting more students. The Pakistan Training Program is the Wing's newest. The first eight Pakistani students arrived in Tucson in October 2009. As experienced F-16A blk 15 pilots, the students came to the 195th to get C-model training in order to fly the blk 52s recently purchased by Pakistan.
> 
> "we are traing these eight pilots so that they can return home and be instructor's themselves and teach others to fly the new F-16s"...."even though we are training them on blk 25s they will still be able to operate their blk 52s back home. when they leave here, they will get training from Lockheed-Martin in Texas on the differences"......"the two blks fly the same, its essentially the employment of weapons that makes the difference".....



There is another batch of PAF technical and ground staff currently being trained at Lockheed Martin, Fort Worth, Texas. I have heard that the number is around 60. I have not yet met any of them personally but many in the Fort Worth community have met them at Jummah prayer.


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## ejaz007

*Boeing To Convert Old F-16s to Targets*
By JOHN REED 
Published: 9 Mar 2010 17:40

The U.S. Air Force has begun replacing its dwindling supply of QF-4 target drones with QF-16s, according to a March 9 Boeing announcement.

With the supply of venerable F-4 airframes running low after years of use as target drones, the air service has given Boeing a $69 million contract to convert up to 126 of the service's oldest F-16s in storage at Davis Monthan Air Force Base, Ariz., into aerial targets, according to the announcement.

Design work on the drones will be done at Boeing's St. Louis facility while production will be done in Jacksonville, Fla.

Boeing To Convert Old F-16s to Targets - Defense News

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## owais.usmani

*PAF F-16C 10902:*

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

ejaz007 said:


> *Boeing To Convert Old F-16s to Targets*
> By JOHN REED
> Published: 9 Mar 2010 17:40
> 
> The U.S. Air Force has begun replacing its dwindling supply of QF-4 target drones with QF-16s, according to a March 9 Boeing announcement.
> 
> With the supply of venerable F-4 airframes running low after years of use as target drones, the air service has given Boeing a $69 million contract to convert up to 126 of the service's oldest F-16s in storage at Davis Monthan Air Force Base, Ariz., into aerial targets, according to the announcement.
> 
> Design work on the drones will be done at Boeing's St. Louis facility while production will be done in Jacksonville, Fla.
> 
> Boeing To Convert Old F-16s to Targets - Defense News




Well if they are short on target drones they should purchase Karakurum planes from us and give us the F16 ? WIN WIN SITUATION


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## DANGER-ZONE

owais.usmani said:


> *PAF F-16C 10902:*



*NO CFT YET*

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## Abu Zolfiqar

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well if they are short on target drones they should purchase Karakurum planes from us and give us the F16 ? WIN WIN SITUATION



good point!


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## HAWK73

Long Live Pak Fyz&#224;i&#224;


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## fatman17

*F-16 Fighting Falcon Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft, USA*

Dimensions

Wingspan 10m
Length 15m
Height 5m
Empty Weight 8,500kg Type1 x P&W F100-PW-200/220/229 or General Electric F110-GE-100/129
Thrust29,000lb
Maximum Speed 1,500mph (Mach 2)

Full specifications

The Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, the first of the US Air Force multi-role fighter aircraft, is the world's most prolific fighter with more than 2,000 in service with the USAF and 2,000 operational with 25 other countries.

The F-16 and the F-15 Eagle were the world's first aircraft able to withstand higher g-forces than the pilots. The Fighting Falcon entered service in 1979. The last of 2,231 F-16 fighters for the US Air Force was delivered in March 2005. The first two-seat F-16D version was accepted by the US Government in January 2009.

Outside the US, Lockheed Martin had a backlog of around 95 F-16 aircraft during the first quarter of 2009.

Recent orders include Bahrain (ten delivered), Greece (60 block 52 all delivered), Israel (50), Egypt (24 block 40), New Zealand (28), United Arab Emirates (80 block 60, first delivered 2005), Singapore (20), South Korea (20 block 52 all delivered), Oman (12, first delivered August 2005), Chile (ten block 50, first delivery 2006) and Poland (48 block 52, delivered March 2006 &#8211; December 2008).

"The F-16 Fighting Falcon is the world's most prolific fighter."Israel, with the world's largest F-16 fleet outside the USAF, has ordered 110 F-16I aircraft, of which the first was delivered in December 2003. These aircraft have Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engines, Elbit avionics, Elisra electronic warfare systems and Rafael weapons and sensors, including Litening II laser target designator pods. Italy has leased 34 aircraft until the first tranche of Eurofighter deliveries are completed. Hungary will acquire 24 ex-USAF fighters.

In December 2005, Greece ordered a further 30 block 52+ fighters (20 F-16C single seat and 10 F-16D two-seat) to be delivered from 2009. Under the Peace Xenia IV purchase programme, the total number of fighters ordered by Greece's HAF(Hellenic Air Force) rose to 170. The first Peace Xenia IV F-16 block 52 advanced aircraft was delivered on 19 March 2009. The remaining will be delivered in 2009 and 2010.

In June 2005, Pakistan requested the foreign military sale (FMS) of 36 F-16C/D block 50/52 aircraft. In June 2006, the Pentagon notified congress of its intention to agree the sale and Lockheed Martin was awarded a contract for 12 F-16C and six F-16D block 52 aircraft in December 2006. The aircraft will be armed with AMRAAM and Sidewinder missiles and the Sniper targeting pod. The planned order of the second 18 aircraft has been cancelled.

In September 2006, Turkey requested the sale of an additional 30 advanced block 50 F-16 aircraft. The order was signed in May 2007. The aircraft will be delivered in 2011 and 2012. The total cost of these additional aircraft could be more than $2.9bn excluding Turkey's $1.1bn upgrade programme for its existing F-16 fleet. 

In June 2007, Taiwan requested 66 F-16C/D aircraft but the US government has indicated that approval is unlikely to be granted before 2009.

In December 2007, Morocco requested the sale of 24 F-16C/D block 50/52 aircraft. The deal includes the aircraft, mission equipment and a support package provided by Lockheed Martin and other US and international contractors. The Royal Moroccan Air Force (RMAF) placed a $233.6m order in June 2008.

The F-16IN Super Viper, which is a development of block 60, has been designed for the Indian Air force. It is a fourth-generation fighter that meets the medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) requirements. It includes Northrop Grumman APG-80 AESA radar and General Electric F110-132A engine with 32,000lb thrust.

Various F-16 upgrade and modernisation programmes are underway in Turkey, Pakistan and Jordan, and within the US Air Force. Future upgrades include air refuelling probes, auxiliary power unitu, auto ground collision avoidance systems and automatic manoeuvring attack.

F-16 common configuration implementation programme (CCIP)

650 USAF block 40/50 F-16s are being upgraded under the common configuration implementation programme (CCIP). The first phase of the programme (first aircraft completed in January 2002) provides core computer and colour cockpit modifications.

The second, which began in September 2002, involves fitting the advanced AN/APX-113 interrogator / transponder and Lockheed Martin Sniper XR advanced FLIR targeting pod.

The third, which started in July 2003, adds Link 16 datalink, the Boeing joint helmet-mounted cueing system and an electronic horizontal situation indicator. Operational testing of the M3 upgraded fighters was completed in September 2004. Deliveries are planned to complete in 2010.

"Israel has the largest F-16 fleet outside the USAF."A216 block 40/50 F-16 aircraft of the Turkish Air Force are to be upgraded with elements of the CCIP, under an agreement reached in April 2005. Lockheed Martin was awarded the contract to supply the modernisation kits in December 2006. The upgrade is scheduled for completion in 2016.

The export version of the Sniper XR pod, the PANTERA, has been ordered by the Royal Norwegian Air Force. The first was delivered in November 2003.

Block 50/52 is the eighth major modification block of the F-16 that incorporates colour cockpit displays, new electronic warfare suite, advanced weapons and sensors and more powerful engines.

Block 60 upgrade

The block 60 F-16E/F, which is being developed for the United Arab Emirates, features extra payload and range, in part due to the new F110-132 engine being developed by General Electric, which produces 145kN of thrust.

New avionics for the block 60 includes a higher-speed mission computer, a new display processor, three large colour LCD displays, advanced data transfer unit with a fibre-optic data transfer network. Precision targeting is achieved by the Northrop Grumman integrated navigation FLIR and targeting FLIR system using mid-wave infrared arrays and Northrop Grumman's APG-80 agile beam active electronically scanned (AESA) radar.

Northrop Grumman is providing the integrated electronic warfare suite. First flight of the block 60 aircraft took place in December 2003. Deliveries of 80 block 60 aircraft to the UAE began in May 2005 and are scheduled to conclude by 2009.

Cockpit

Advanced equipment being fitted on the current build of the F-16 includes Honeywell colour flat-panel liquid crystal multifunction displays, digital terrain system, modular mission computer, colour video camera to record the pilot's view of the head-up display (HUD), a colour triple-deck video recorder and an enhanced programmable display generator.

Under the USAF project Sure Strike, the F-16 is being equipped with an improved data modem (IDM), which automatically provides target data to the HUD using data transmitted by a ground observer.

The seat-back angle of the aircraft has been increased from 13&#176; to 30&#176; to provide increased comfort for the pilot.

"USAF F-16 aircraft are scheduled to receive the Boeing joint helmet-mounted cueing system (JHMCS)."A follow-on programme, project Gold Strike, integrates an upgraded IDM for the transmission of images to and from a range of sources, including ground units and unmanned aircraft. The system can transmit images from the LANTIRN targeting pod and display video imagery to the cockpit.

USAF F-16 aircraft are scheduled to receive the Boeing joint helmet-mounted cueing system (JHMCS), currently in full-rate production. Deliveries of production systems began in 2004, although the system has been deployed operationally during Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Weapons

The aircraft has nine hardpoints for weapons payloads: one at each wing tip, three under each wing and one centreline under the fuselage. The ordnance is launched from Raytheon LAU-88 launchers, MAU-12 and Orgen bomb ejector racks. The port wing is fitted with a 20mm General Electric M61A1 multi-barrel cannon and the gunsight is interfaced to the cockpit HUD. 

Air-to-air missiles which have been carried on the F-16 include the Lockheed Martin / Raytheon AIM-9 Sidewinder, Raytheon AMRAAM, Raytheon Sparrow, MBDA (formerly Matra BAe Dynamics) Skyflash and ASRAAM, and the MBDA R550 Magic 2. In April 2004, the F-16 first fired the new-generation AIM-9X Sidewinder, which is in full-rate production for the USAF.

Air-to-surface missiles carried on the F-16 include Maverick, HARM and Shrike missiles, manufactured by Raytheon, and anti-ship missiles include Boeing Harpoon and Kongsberg Penguin. Flight tests with the Lockheed Martin joint air-to-surface stand-off missile (JASSM) are being conducted from the F-16.

The first guided launch of the new joint direct attack munition (JDAM) was successfully carried out from an F-16. The F-16 was the first USAF aircraft to be fitted with the joint stand-off weapon (JSOW) in April 2000.

The F-16 can be fitted with Lockheed Martin wind-corrected munitions dispenser (WCMD), which provides precision guidance for CBU-87, -89, and 97 cluster munitions. The system corrects for launch transients, ballistic errors, and winds aloft. 

The F-16 will be the first aircraft to use the USAF's new weapon rack, the Edo Corporation BRU-57. The BRU-57 is a vertical ejection rack which doubles the aircraft's capacity for precision-guided weapons like JDAM and WCMD.

All-weather stand-off weapons such as the AGM-84E stand-off land-attack missile (SLAM) and the AGM-142 Popeye II are planned to be included in future upgrades to the aircraft. Other advanced weapons include MICA, IRIS-T, Python IV, Active Skyflash air-to-air missile, ALARM antiradiation missile, Apache multimission stand-off weapon, autonomous free-flight dispenser system and AS30L laser-guided missile. 

Targeting

The F-16 carries the Lockheed Martin LANTIRN infrared navigation and targeting system. This is used in conjunction with a BAE Systems holographic display. Block 50/52 aircraft are equipped with the HARM Targeting System, AN/ASQ-213 from Raytheon.

US Air National Guard F-16 aircraft are fitted with Northrop Grumman Litening II / Litening ER targeting pods.

"Air-to-surface missiles carried on the F-16 Fighting Falcon include Maverick, HARM and Shrike missiles."In August 2001, Lockheed Martin was selected to provide the Sniper XR as the new advanced targeting pod for USAF F-16 and F-15E aircraft.

Sniper XR (extended range) incorporates a high-resolution mid-wave FLIR, dual-mode laser, CCD TV, laser spot tracker and laser marker combined with advanced image processing algorithms. Deliveries began in March 2003.

F-16 fighters for Oman will be equipped with BAE Systems advanced airborne reconnaissance system. Those for Poland and Morocco will be equipped with the Goodrich DB-110 reconnaissance pod.

Countermeasures

Current block 50 F-16 aircraft for the USA are equipped with the Lockheed Martin superheterodyne AN/ALR-56M radar warning receiver. The F-16 is also compatible with a range of jammers and electronic countermeasures equipment, including Northrop Grumman AN/ALQ-131, Raytheon AN/ALQ-184, Elisra SPS 3000 and Elta EL/L-8240, and the Northrop Grumman ALQ-165 self-protection suite.

Lockheed Martin ALE-40 and ALE-47 chaff and infrared flare dispenser systems are installed in an internal flush mount. ALE-40 is pilot-controlled but the ALE-47 installed in block 50 can be operated in fully, semi-automatic or manual mode.

F-16s for the Greek Air Force are being fitted with the Raytheon advanced self-protection integrated suite (ASPIS) II which includes Northrop Grumman ALR-93(V) threat warning system, Raytheon ALQ-187 jammer and BAE Systems ALE-47 chaff / flare dispenser.

F-16s for Chile and Pakistan are fitted with the ITT AN/ALQ-211 (V) 4 electronic warfare suite.

Radar

The Northrop Grumman AN/APG-68 radar provides 25 separate air-to-air and air-to-ground modes, including long-range, all-aspect detection and tracking, simultaneous multiple-target tracking, and high-resolution ground mapping. The planar antenna array is installed in the nose of the aircraft.

An upgraded version of the radar, AN/APG-68(V)9, has begun flight testing. The upgrade features: 30&#37; increase in detection range, five times increase in processing speed, ten times increase in memory, as well as significant improvements in all modes, jam resistance and false alarm rate.

Navigation and communications

The F-16 was the first operational US aircraft to receive a global positioning system (GPS). The aircraft has an inertial navigation system, either a Northrop Grumman (Litton) LN-39, LN-93 ring laser gyroscope or Honeywell H-423.

"The F-16 Fighting Falcon carries the Lockheed Martin LANTIRN infrared navigation and targeting system."Other navigation equipment includes a BAE Systems Terprom digital terrain navigation system, Gould AN/APN-232 radar altimeter, Rockwell Collins AN/ARN-118 tactical air navigation system (TACAN) and Rockwell Collins AN/ARN-108 instrument landing system.

The communications systems include the Raytheon UHF AN/ARC-164 receiver / transmitter and Rockwell Collins VHF AM/FM AN/ARC-186 together with AN/APX101 identification friend or foe (IFF) and encryption / secure communications systems. The AN/APX-101 is being upgraded with BAE Systems AN/APX-113.

Engine

The aircraft is powered by a single engine: the General Electric F110-GE-129 or Pratt and Whitney F100-PW-229. The fuel supply is equipped with an inert gas anti-fire system. An inflight refuelling probe is installed in the top of the fuselage.

Lockheed Martin has completed developmental flight testing on new conformal fuel tanks (CFT) for the F-16, which will significantly add to the aircraft's mission radius. First flight of the F-16 equipped with the new tanks was in March 2003. Greece is the launch customer for the CFT.

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## Cha.Cal

Interesting article, that even though is in the perspective of a confrontation between China and Taiwan, sheds some light on the capabilities of F-16 C/D.

Only F-16 jets strong enough to repel China: Reports

Taiwan is trying to obtain upgraded F-16 C/D jets from the U.S. 

Taiwan News, Staff Writer 
2010-03-09 12:00 AM

Only the United States-made F-16 fighter jets were strong enough to help Taiwan repel an attack from China's more sophisticated aircraft, reports said yesterday.

The Chinese-language Liberty Times daily said internal Ministry of National Defense reports showed the air force's Indigenous Defense Fighters and French-made Mirage 2000 jets were not up to the standards of China's most recent aircraft.

Taiwan has been trying to obtain upgraded F-16 C/D jets from the U.S., but the Obama Administration has so far failed to agree on the deal.

One Russian-supplied Sukhoi-30 from China's air force was the equivalent of 2.8 Mirages or 1.7 IDFs, the MND report said, according to the Liberty Times.

*The F-16 would draw level with the Su-30, making the U.S. jet the strongest aircraft in Taiwan's arsenal, the paper said.
*
The performance of the air-to-air missiles used by the fighter jets reportedly played an important part in determining the rating of the planes in the survey. Taiwan's F-16s use the AIM-120, the IDF are equipped with the locally made Sky Sword- 2, while the Mirages come with the Mica.

The French missiles only had a range of 60km, compared to at least 100km for all the other missiles used by either Taiwan or China, according to the Liberty Times. The paper quoted an unnamed pilot who said the distance did not matter too much because it was only possible to recognize whether another aircraft was friend or enemy from 50km or less.

The pilot said the Mirage was excellent in escaping enemy-fired missiles, and that the military report might have been written to pave the way for the purchase of the new F-16s. The MND nevertheless felt the report was a simplification of real situations that might occur because it failed to take several factors into account, including the quality of the pilots, the battle environment and interference from anti-air missiles, the paper said.

The ministry also denied a Liberty Times report that the administration of President Ma Ying-jeou had abandoned a project to assemble 66 F-16s in Taiwan, thus losing a NT$25 billion deal.

The Ma government would import the completed planes directly from the U.S. instead of having them assembled by the Aerospace Industrial Development Corporation, as the administration of former President Chen Shui-bian had planned, the Liberty Times said.

The ministry said it would stand by its rule that for each international defense deal reaching US$5 million, industrial cooperation would amount to at least 40 percent of the final value of the agreement.


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## fatman17

*Viper Driver*

Name Sqn.Ldr. Mustafa "Lightening" Orakzai 
Country Pakistan

Unit 11th squadron "Arrows" 
Flying F-16s 
Viper Hours 1050 
Commissioned in 1996. Have flown f-7p, f-7PG and currently F-16s. Total hours on chinese Migs is 850 hours. 

f-16.net


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## fatman17

*Viper Driver*

Name Air.Cmd. Ashfaq Arain (Ret.) 
Country Pakistan 
Unit N/A 
Flying F-16s 
Viper Hours 2000 
Commander Arain is currently serving as the Air Advisor in the Pakistan High Commission in New Delhi, India where he's living with his wife and two children (untill 2005).

He also commanded no. 9 squadron


----------



## fatman17

*Viper Driver*

Name Cdt. M. Haseeb Paracha 
Country Pakistan 
Unit 9th squadron "Griffins" 
Flying F-16s 
Viper Hours 2000 
Squadron Leader M Haseeb Paracha completed 1000 hours on the F-16 in 1998. He is presently (2003) an active pilot in the PAF and is serving as Wing Commander with 1400+ hours on the Viper.

2003: His latest assignment is Commanding Officer at 9 sqn, PAF AB Sargodha


2003: Commanding Officer at 11 Squadron


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## fatman17

*Viper Driver*

Name Wg.Cmd. Aamir Masood 
Country Pakistan 
Unit 9th squadron "Griffins" 
Flying F-16s 
Viper Hours 2000 
Currently flying Su-30MK1 for the Chinese Navy.

2006: Commanding Officer of 9 sqn.


----------



## fatman17

*Viper Driver*

Name Wg.Cmd. Tariq Zia 
Country Pakistan 
Unit 9th squadron "Griffins" 
Flying F-16s 
Viper Hours 2150 
Commanding 9 sqn in 2007.


----------



## fatman17

*Viper Driver*

Name Irfan Ahmed 
Country Pakistan 
Unit N/A 
Flying F-16s 
Viper Hours 2015 
2008: Undergoing course at NPS Monterey, CA , USA


----------



## fatman17

*Viper Driver*

Name Cdr. Sayed Muzaffar Ali (Ret.) 
Country Pakistan 
Unit N/A 
Flying F-16s 
Viper Hours 1000 
He was the first PAF pilot to reach 1000 Viper hours, now Group Captain

Air commodore S. Muzaffar Ali passed away in the early morning on October 26th, 2005. He was one the first three pilots of the PAF who took training on the F-16 in a very short time period which set a record in the US Air History. Sayed Muzaffar Ali was one of three pilots who flew the very first fleet of three F-16s to Pakistan. Later he served as a Pakistan Air Attach&#233; in the USA.


----------



## fatman17

*Viper Driver*

Name Air Vice Marshall Athar Bokhari (Ret.) 
Country Pakistan 
Unit N/A 
Flying F-16s 
Viper Hours 1500 
See also April 8th, 1988, Sqn. Ldr. Athar Bokhari 
Went to the PAF Combat Commanders School (an equivalent of Top Gun) as an instructor.

2006: Now flying the F-7 Skybolt and French made Mirage 3.


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## fatman17

*Viper Driver*

Name Sqn.Ldr. Ali Asad Khan (Ret.) 
Country Pakistan 
Unit N/A 
Flying F-16s 
Viper Hours 1000 
Sadly Group Captain Ali Asad Khan died in a tragic accident while flying a Mirage aircraft in July 2001. His last assignment was (flying) CO at Masroor AB, Pakistan.


----------



## fatman17

*Viper Driver*

Name Sqn.Ldr. Khalid Mahmood (Ret.) 
Country Pakistan 
Unit N/A 
Flying F-16s 
Viper Hours 1350 
See also Sqn. Ldr. Khalid Mahmood 
Shot down 2 Mig-23MLD Floggers of the Russian AF on the Pakistani-Afghan border on September 12th, 1988 in an encounter with 6 Mig-23's.

Shot down an Afghan SU-22 on November 3rd, 1988.


Also intercepted an Afghan An-12 on January 12th, 1989 at night, but didn't fire a missile because the aircraft surrendered by flashing its lights. The aircraft crashed however, during landing in Pakistan.



2004: Currently he is the Project Manager of the JF-17 project.


2008: Retired.


----------



## fatman17

*Viper Driver*

Name Sqn.Ldr. Muhammad Azam 
Country Pakistan 
Unit N/A 
Flying F-16s 
Viper Hours 1000


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> *Viper Driver*
> 
> Name Cdt. M. Haseeb Paracha
> Country Pakistan
> Unit 9th squadron "Griffins"
> Flying F-16s
> Viper Hours 2000
> Squadron Leader M Haseeb Paracha completed 1000 hours on the F-16 in 1998. He is presently (2003) an active pilot in the PAF and is serving as Wing Commander with 1400+ hours on the Viper.
> 
> 2003: His latest assignment is Commanding Officer at 9 sqn, PAF AB Sargodha
> 
> 
> 2003: Commanding Officer at 11 Squadron


Currently, as a Group Captain, he is serving at PAF HQ Peshawar.


----------



## Jigs

That is actually a pretty good number of flight ours considering the small size of the PAK F-16 force. Good number of vets out their in the PAF. 

This is also considering these guys probably flew other aircraft before this.


----------



## fatman17

Jigs said:


> That is actually a pretty good number of flight ours considering the small size of the PAK F-16 force. Good number of vets out their in the PAF.
> 
> This is also considering these guys probably flew other aircraft before this.



the list is possibly not complete!


----------



## TaimiKhan

fatman17 said:


> *Viper Driver*
> 
> Name Wg.Cmd. Aamir Masood
> Country Pakistan
> Unit 9th squadron "Griffins"
> Flying F-16s
> Viper Hours 2000
> *Currently flying Su-30MK1 for the Chinese Navy.*
> 
> 2006: Commanding Officer of 9 sqn.



This is something amazing and kind of shocking.

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## fatman17

taimikhan said:


> This is something amazing and kind of shocking.



why shocking - its good to know what the adversary is flying - thanks to our chinese friends!

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## Jigs

fatman17 said:


> the list is possibly not complete!



Are you doing all the PAF viper pilots ?


----------



## fatman17

Jigs said:


> Are you doing all the PAF viper pilots ?



i'm researching from known sources, but i am sure other members cld have information on this.


----------



## Jigs

fatman17 said:


> i'm researching from known sources, but i am sure other members cld have information on this.



You should just scroll through the 1k hour list on F-16.net they should have every PAK Viper Pilot on there i know they have almost every Turkish Viper pilot.


----------



## fatman17

Jigs said:


> You should just scroll through the 1k hour list on F-16.net they should have every PAK Viper Pilot on there i know they have almost every Turkish Viper pilot.



thx - doing that - got tired after 63 pages!


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## Jigs

fatman17 said:


> thx - doing that - got tired after 63 pages!



Yeah i know what you mean i did the same with the Turkish Pilots. Think of it this way least your not trying to get all the USAF Viper pilots.

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## subanday

fatman17 said:


> *Viper Driver*
> 
> Name Sqn.Ldr. Mustafa "Lightening" Orakzai
> Country Pakistan
> 
> Unit 11th squadron "Arrows"
> Flying F-16s
> Viper Hours 1050
> Commissioned in 1996. Have flown f-7p, f-7PG and currently F-16s. Total hours on chinese Migs is 850 hours.
> 
> f-16.net



Mustafa " Lightening" Orakzai ....... I luv it , simply luv the lightening effect..... fills me with electricity.......


----------



## Jigs

Blah i just noticed the search by air force thing at the top of the flight hours page at F-16.net.


Wg.Cmd. Tariq Zia 
Viper Hours-2,150.
9th squadron "Griffins" 
Commanding 9 sqn in 2007. 

Irfan Ahmed 
Viper Hours-2015
2008: Undergoing course at NPS Monterey, CA , USA 

Cdt. M. Haseeb Paracha 
Viper Hours-2000
9th squadron "Griffins" 
Squadron Leader M Haseeb Paracha completed 1000 hours on the F-16 in 1998.

Air.Cmd. Ashfaq Arain (Ret.) 
Viper Hours-2000 
Commander Arain is currently serving as the Air Advisor in the Pakistan High Commission in New Delhi, India where he's living with his wife and two children (until 2005).
He also commanded no. 9 squadron

Wg.Cmd. Aamir Masood  
Viper Hours-2000
9th squadron "Griffins" 
Currently flying Su-30MK1 for the Chinese Navy.

Air.Vice.Marsh. Farhat Hussain Khan 
Viper Hours-1900 
2004: Acting base commander of Masroor Karachi 

Sqn.Ldr. Ali Naeem Zahoor 
Viper Hours-1600 
11th squadron "Arrows" 

Air Vice Marshall Athar Bokhari (Ret.) 
Viper Hours-1500 
Went to the PAF Combat Commanders School (an equivalent of Top Gun) as an instructor.
2006: Now flying the F-7 Skybolt and French made Mirage 3. 

Wg.Cmd. Fauad Masud Hatmi 
Viper Hours-1500 
9th squadron "Griffins" 
11th squadron "Arrows" till 13 August 2005

Air.Cmd. Khaleel Ahmed 
Viper Hours-1470
11th squadron "Arrows"
Wing Commander Khaleel Ahmed achieved 1,300 Flying Hours on F-16 A/B Fighting Falcon Aircraft, as on 31 December 1996, while serving as Instructor Pilot in number 11 Multi Role Squadron/F-16 OCU at PAF Base Sargodha.

Wg.Cmd. Javad Saeed 
Viper Hours-1400 
2006: liason officer for the Pakistan F-16 program at Hill AFB, Utah, USA. 

Sqn.Ldr. Khalid Mahmood (Ret.) 
Viper Hours-1350
Shot down 2 Mig-23MLD Floggers of the Russian AF on the Pakistani-Afghan border on September 12th, 1988 in an encounter with 6 Mig-23's.
Shot down an Afghan SU-22 on November 3rd, 1988.
Also intercepted an Afghan An-12 on January 12th, 1989 at night, but didn't fire a missile because the aircraft surrendered by flashing its lights. The aircraft crashed however, during landing in Pakistan.
2004: Currently he is the Project Manager of the JF-17 project.
2008: Retired. 

Wg.Cmd. Waqas Ahmed Sulehri 
Viper Hours-1200 
11th squadron "Arrows" 
As of Feb 2003 Sqn. Ldr. Waqas Sulehri was serving in 11Sqn at PAF Sargodha AB
Has the honour of being the top graduate of all F-16 related fighter combat courses of PAF.2007: Wing Commander of 11 sqn. 



Wg.Cmd. Hamza Jamil 
Viper Hours-1200


Sqn.Ldr. Omair Ahmed Najmi  
Viper Hours-1200
11th squadron "Arrows" 
Active Pilot serving PAF as instructor Pilot in No 11 MR Squadron and Combat Commanders School (CCS) PAF. 

Sqn.Ldr. Khalid Mehmood 
Viper Hours-1170
9th squadron "Griffins" 

Sqn.Ldr. Azman Khalil 
Viper Hours-1120

Sqn.Ldr. Mustafa "Lightening" Orakzai  
Viper Hours-1050
11th squadron "Arrows" 
Commissioned in 1996. Have flown f-7p, f-7PG and currently F-16s. Total hours on chinese Migs is 850 hours. 

Cdr. Sayed Muzaffar Ali (Ret.) 
Viper Hours-1000
He was the first PAF pilot to reach 1000 Viper hours, now Group Captain
Air commodore S. Muzaffar Ali passed away in the early morning on October 26th, 2005. He was one the first three pilots of the PAF who took training on the F-16 in a very short time period which set a record in the US Air History. Sayed Muzaffar Ali was one of three pilots who flew the very first fleet of three F-16s to Pakistan. Later he served as a Pakistan Air Attach&#233; in the USA. 

Sqn.Ldr. Ali Asad Khan (Ret.) 
Viper Hours-1000
Sadly Group Captain Ali Asad Khan died in a tragic accident while flying a Mirage aircraft in July 2001. His last assignment was (flying) CO at Masroor AB, Pakistan. 

Sqn.Ldr. Muhammad Azam 
Viper Hours-1000


Wg.Cmd. Azher Hassan 
Viper Hours-1000
9th squadron "Griffins" 
2008 : Base Commander of Mianwali AB flying F-7P. 

Air.Cmd. Razi Nawab (Ret.) 
Viper Hours-1000 
Died in a crash in 2005. 

Sqn.Ldr. Muhammad Iqbal 
Viper Hours-1000


Air.Cmd. Tariq Mahmud Ashraf 
Viper Hours-1000
He was the 7th PAF pilot to complete 1,000hrs. 


Air.Vice.Marsh. Waseem-ud-din (Ret.) 
Viper Hours-1000
Base Commander of Kamra AFB and flying F-7P, Mirage (2005). 

Air.Vice.Marsh. Mohammad Yousaf 
Viper Hours-1000

Sqn.Ldr. Syed Omer Shah 
Viper Hours-1000
11th squadron "Arrows" 
Active Pilot serving PAF as instructor pilot as well as Flight Commander (2i/c) of No 11 Multirole Squadron, PAF
Earlier he flew F-7(p) and Mirages 

F-16.net


Think i got them all we should have this stickied

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## DANGER-ZONE

guys an other PAF f16 Block 52 SR:10804.
now total blk52s are three(sr:10801,10804,10902) and these 3+1 more r coming to Pakistan in June 2010 with some Old Embargoed f16 of PAF.

*PAF F-16D block 52 #10804 (07-0016) is seen landing at Navy Fort Worth (Carswell AFB) after a test flight on February 16, 2010. [photo by Zane Adams]*
BUT NO CFT YET

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## Jigs

9th squadron (PAF)
"Griffins" 

UNIT HISTORY
1943: Activation of the squadron in Risalpur (Indian squadron)
1943: Hurricane IIC
1944: Spitfire VIII

1947: Re-activation of the squadron in Peshawar (as Pakistani squadron)

1947: Tempest Mk. II
1950: 'Fury' FB60
1956: 'Fury' FB60 (Kohat AB)
1961: F-104A Starfighter
1973: Mirage VPA (Rafiqui AB)
1981: Mirage VPA (Masroor AB)
1984: F-16A/B Fighting Falcon (Sarghoda AB)
2007: F-16AM/BM 'Fighting Falcon

F-16.net

I love the Starfighter

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## Jigs

11th squadron (PAF)
"Arrows" 

UNIT HISTORY
1949: Activation of the squadron in Mauripur
1949: Attacker F1
1956: F-86F Sabre
1965: F-86F Sabre (Sarghoda AB)
1966: F-6A
1971: F-6A (Rafiqui AB)
1983: F-16A/B Fighting Falcon (Sarghoda AB)
2006: F-16AM/BM 'Fighting Falcon'

F-16.net

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## SQ8

Need name of squadron which will receive the new block 52's.


----------



## fatman17

santro said:


> Need name of squadron which will receive the new block 52's.



i think no 14 'tailchoppers' will get it !


----------



## Stealth

*WHERE ARE CFT??*


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Stealth said:


> *WHERE ARE CFT??*



lagta hai bhai USA ne PAKISTAN ko aik bar phir bana dia hai.....CHAY!
i have seen UAE,Greek,Polish, Israel f16 blk-52/60 always fitted with CFTs they y PAF f16s flying without them.?even i saw UAE,Israel,Greek f16 fitted with CFTs from the first flight..

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## Abu Zolfiqar

fatman17 said:


> *Viper Driver*
> 
> Name Wg.Cmd. Aamir Masood
> Country Pakistan
> Unit 9th squadron "Griffins"
> Flying F-16s
> Viper Hours 2000
> *Currently flying Su-30MK1 for the Chinese Navy.*
> 
> 2006: Commanding Officer of 9 sqn.



hmmmmmmmmmm.......

interesting


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

fatman17 said:


> i think no 14 'tailchoppers' will get it !



bingo


----------



## TOPGUN

danger-zone said:


> lagta hai bhai USA ne PAKISTAN ko aik bar phir bana dia hai.....CHAY!
> i have seen UAE,Greek,Polish, Israel f16 blk-52/60 always fitted with CFTs they y PAF f16s flying without them.?even i saw UAE,Israel,Greek f16 fitted with CFTs from the first flight..



I totally agree but understand that we will be having them with the birds when they come home from the news and sources we have heard from PAF.


----------



## araz

danger-zone said:


> lagta hai bhai USA ne PAKISTAN ko aik bar phir bana dia hai.....CHAY!
> i have seen UAE,Greek,Polish, Israel f16 blk-52/60 always fitted with CFTs they y PAF f16s flying without them.?even i saw UAE,Israel,Greek f16 fitted with CFTs from the first flight..



I dont think CFTs are that hi Tech that they will send the plane but keep the CFTs.i think it is a matter of time and CFTs will come.However, i cannot get confirmation of any additional F16swhich people are talking about,.It may just be a misquote and we will only be getting the Bl52s that were due to come.
Araz


----------



## S-A-B-E-R->

guys check this out some serious art work


----------



## S-A-B-E-R->




----------



## bc040400065

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> bingo



forget it... no No.9 or No.14 .... bkl52 are to be based at shahbaz airbase jacobabad and that airbase is under american use to 8 years to forget these f16.... americans will control it


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

bc040400065 said:


> forget it... no No.9 or No.14 .... bkl52 are to be based at shahbaz airbase jacobabad and that airbase is under *american use to 8 years to* forget these f16.... americans will control it



nah yaara


----------



## fatman17

bc040400065 said:


> forget it... no No.9 or No.14 .... bkl52 are to be based at shahbaz airbase jacobabad and that airbase is under american use to 8 years to forget these f16.... americans will control it



US has vacated Shabaz - it is being upgraded for the blk 52's under PAF control - update yourself

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## TaimiKhan

bc040400065 said:


> forget it... no No.9 or No.14 .... bkl52 are to be based at shahbaz airbase jacobabad and that airbase is under american use to 8 years to forget these f16.... americans will control it



Americans have left, but they have strictly asked the PAF not to base any Chinese equipment there and also any Chinese nationals too.


----------



## acE1u3

TOPGUN said:


> We should try to get blk 52's going back to the stone age is not gona help us at all we are trying to come out of that era.



Yes i definetley agree with you


----------



## KeenGuy




----------



## Sunny4pak

taimikhan said:


> Americans have left, but they have strictly asked the PAF not to base any Chinese equipment there and also any Chinese nationals too.



Dear Taimi bhai why they asked..... who the ..... they are to dictate in this regard...


regards,

sunny


----------



## Sapper

Sunny4pak said:


> Dear Taimi bhai why they asked..... who the ..... they are to dictate in this regard...
> 
> 
> regards,
> 
> sunny



Dear,

They have asked this to save US technologies falling into Chinese hands, as it was part of the original deal when it was brokered back in 2005.

They have every right to restrict un-authorized foreign access to their technologies. This demand isn't criminal or immoral by any aspect, except if they try to restrict F16s use by PAF in any capacity, which hasn't been put put forward by my knowledge.

Regards,
Sapper


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## bc040400065

Even if they left the shahbaz airbase still the terms and conditions attach to the deal of blk52 does not allow these F16 and the weapons to be used against india. so If we use them in any war against india then remember what happened in 65 war.....


----------



## Myth_buster_1

bc040400065 said:


> Even if they left the shahbaz airbase still the terms and conditions attach to the deal of blk52 does not allow these F16 and the weapons to be used against india. so If we use them in any war against india then remember what happened in 65 war.....



Then against what will they be used? Kindly dont bring the same BS over again which has already been debunked billions of times in this forum. This is not masalah gup shup show called "pkpolitics".

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## Sapper

bc040400065 said:


> Even if they left the shahbaz airbase still the terms and conditions attach to the deal of blk52 does not allow these F16 and the weapons to be used against india. so If we use them in any war against india then remember what happened in 65 war.....



Dear,

Enlighten us ... site source please.

Regards,
Sapper


----------



## Imran Khan

bc040400065 said:


> Even if they left the shahbaz airbase still the terms and conditions attach to the deal of blk52 does not allow these F16 and the weapons to be used against india. so If we use them in any war against india then remember what happened in 65 war.....



grow up yaar we are not soft as you think


----------



## yashraj

bc040400065 said:


> Even if they left the shahbaz airbase still the terms and conditions attach to the deal of blk52 does not allow these F16 and the weapons to be used against india. so If we use them in any war against india then remember what happened in 65 war.....



What the F...u( K.............

New F16 Blk52 is not allowed to use agaist india 

Then what is the perpouse of buying for ...... ?

or may be to give one of them to china for their new (Copied) technology to impliment on JF-17


----------



## bc040400065

Imran Khan said:


> grow up yaar we are not soft as you think



hope so that does not happen. but one cannot trust US thats for sure.


----------



## bc040400065

Growler said:


> Then against what will they be used? Kindly dont bring the same BS over again which has already been debunked billions of times in this forum. This is not masalah gup shup show called "pkpolitics".



i know this is not gup shup forum and this is no gup shup... US did this to us in past and will not hesitate doing so again. US has only one friend and is their national interest and i m really against buying more weapons from untrusted source..... and the past record of the US dealing with its so called "friends" or ally shows it all.


----------



## bc040400065

Imran Khan said:


> grow up yaar we are not soft as you think



"We are not soft" well the present situation does not favor this. Specially when Zardari is there one should not even aspect any good for pakistan. and Missiles test not being conducted for 2 years is one proof for u how hard we are,, specially when dealing with US .


----------



## Myth_buster_1

bc040400065 said:


> i know this is not gup shup forum and this is no gup shup... US did this to us in past and will not hesitate doing so again. US has only one friend and is their national interest and i m really against buying more weapons from untrusted source..... and the past record of the US dealing with its so called "friends" or ally shows it all.



SO you think you have higher IQ then PAF top brass? look man dont make a joke out of yourself. you are fairly new to this forum so i advice you to learn rather then bring back dead topic over again.

In 65 PAF had no spare parts in stocks so sabers were effected badly and same was the case with F-16s during 90s but now PAF had made sure that they have surplus amount of spares in reserve so that during War time or sanctions the new F-16s and upgraded once are not effected. Thats why the deal is so expensive because we are buying spares and spares.


----------



## IceCold

bc040400065 said:


> Even if they left the shahbaz airbase still the terms and conditions attach to the deal of blk52 does not allow these F16 and the weapons to be used against india. so If we use them in any war against india then remember what happened in 65 war.....



Apart from the so called kill switches(If any at all) nothing will or can stop PAF from using those F-16s against India once the need arises.


----------



## Peregrine

Growler said:


> SO you think you have higher IQ then PAF top brass? look man dont make a joke out of yourself. you are fairly new to this forum so i advice you to learn rather then bring back dead topic over again.
> 
> In 65 PAF had no spare parts in stocks so sabers were effected badly and same was the case with F-16s during 90s but now PAF had made sure that they have surplus amount of spares in reserve so that during War time or sanctions the new F-16s and upgraded once are not effected. Thats why the deal is so expensive because we are buying spares and spares.


hi,
Well i would beg to differ with you here, these are the wrong decisions of this so called highly intellectual top brass, which have harmed Pakistan more than any enemy, that includes military & civilian leaders both
Spare parts are one thing what if American's will attach dead switches in these f-16's, that was the primary reason that Pakistan refused the American PAL( permissive active security link) for nuclear weapons, i don't know how things are, as Mr 10&#37; is in power. but its a fact that Americans can never be trusted


----------



## ice_man

Imran Khan said:


> grow up yaar we are not soft as you think



you bet! when we get HARD it usually ends up as an all nighter! & that also explains why india & pakistan have such high populations!


----------



## IceCold

Peregrine said:


> hi,
> Well i would beg to differ with you here, these are the wrong decisions of this so called highly intellectual top brass, which have harmed Pakistan more than any enemy, that includes military & civilian leaders both
> Spare parts are one thing what if American's will attach dead switches in these f-16's, that was the primary reason that Pakistan refused the American PAL( permissive active security link) for nuclear weapons, i don't know how things are, as Mr 10% is in power. but its a fact that Americans can never be trusted



Look americans did not beg us to buy their F-16s, we asked them in the first place and there is not such thing as kill switch or perhaps like you have put it dead switches.
Nuclear is a whole different ball game, please dont compare them with the F-16s. Americans cannot be trusted true but then again that is why PAF is buying spares along side and besides lets not forget PAF already reduced its order from 36 to 18. JF-17 and FC-20 are going to be the main work horse for PAF and the valuable experience that we will gain out of these block-52 is still worth while even if we accept for a moment that there are these so called kill switches which the americans can activate at any time turning our F-16s into dodo.

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## araz

yashraj said:


> What the F...u( K.............
> 
> New F16 Blk52 is not allowed to use agaist india
> 
> Then what is the perpouse of buying for ...... ?
> 
> or may be to give one of them to china for their new (Copied) technology to impliment on JF-17



Could you please review the first sentence.Was this absolutely necessary.I have earned a bad name for stopping my own countrymen from letting their tongues go on a rampage, do I have any reason to not Stopping you? Mostly foul language is not even necessary.
Please take care.
Regards
Araz

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## araz

Peregrine said:


> hi,
> Well i would beg to differ with you here, these are the wrong decisions of this so called highly intellectual top brass, which have harmed Pakistan more than any enemy, that includes military & civilian leaders both
> Spare parts are one thing what if American's will attach dead switches in these f-16's, that was the primary reason that Pakistan refused the American PAL( permissive active security link) for nuclear weapons, i don't know how things are, as Mr 10% is in power. but its a fact that Americans can never be trusted



I dont want to prolong this decision. Irrespective of all the wrong decisions made by the top brass, what do you think will happen to the reputation of the US as a supplier of armaments,if it installed kill switches and other equipment to make its equipment ineffective in case of a war. Location devices, yes, source code transfer , possible, but kill switches, I think not! US cannot be trusted just like any other country should not be trusted when you are in need. However you would be surprised at the industriousness of the PAF in solving its problems. regards
Araz


----------



## Peregrine

araz said:


> I dont want to prolong this decision. Irrespective of all the wrong decisions made by the top brass, what do you think will happen to the reputation of the US as a supplier of armaments,if it installed kill switches and other equipment to make its equipment ineffective in case of a war. Location devices, yes, source code transfer , possible, but kill switches, I think not! US cannot be trusted just like any other country should not be trusted when you are in need. However you would be surprised at the industriousness of the PAF in solving its problems. regards
> Araz


Hi,
well you are right, but it would have been better for the Pakistani's if they had concentrated their efforts on J-10, if America was willing to give Pakistan some thing then why not ask for SAM'S & that is one of the issues which PAF has not been able to address properly, we haven't used f-16's against India ever since we got them, But India has violated our defense numerous times even last year, since it's a forum so i wont disclose how we knew that Indian jets have violated our air space, but PAF being a defensive air force should work on making its defense more strong by acquiring advanced radars or SAM's at least, i am not undermining the importance of jets here, but the prospects of using jets in any sort of confrontation in a nuclear environment are highly unlikely as the situation can always escalate.


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## DANGER-ZONE

is PAF getting Multiple missile racks for BVR or IR seeking missiles...?


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## yashraj

araz said:


> Could you please review the first sentence.Was this absolutely necessary.I have earned a bad name for stopping my own countrymen from letting their tongues go on a rampage, do I have any reason to not Stopping you? Mostly foul language is not even necessary.
> Please take care.
> Regards
> Araz



Sorry Bro........

I was in little  Mood...... 

But ya i want to ask that question properlly that "Is there any string attached to new F16 deal that it's not going to use agaist India in War?"

And if ya then what is the perpouse of Buying that..........?

And still pakistan is much more dependent on USA for weapon and Aid...........


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## MaXimMaRz

yashraj said:


> Sorry Bro........
> 
> I was in little  Mood......
> 
> But ya i want to ask that question properlly that "Is there any string attached to new F16 deal that it's not going to use agaist India in War?"
> 
> And if ya then what is the perpouse of Buying that..........?
> 
> And still pakistan is much more dependent on USA for weapon and Aid...........



How did you come up with that one....
From a small pebble on this Land to the Nukes placed some where around in this country , Everything is and will be used against Indian and indians...if the situation so demands ...inshallah

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## RPK

The &#8216;Peace Drive I&#8217; order is for 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds, all powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engine and these would be delivered by end of 2010. 

lock 50/52 is the eighth major modification block of the F-16. The Block 50/52 improvements &#8212; more powerful engine, colour cockpit displays, new electronic warfare suite, advanced weapons and sensors - are the direct result of combat experience

The Hindu : News / National : F-16s offered to India better than Pakistan&rsquo;s: Lockheed Martin


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## Nahraf

No Nuclear deal no Free Trade deal just 14 inferior F-16 for Pakistan.

The Hindu : News / National : F-16s offered to India better than Pakistan&rsquo;s: Lockheed Martin

F-16s offered to India better than Pakistan&#8217;s: Lockheed Martin 
PTI The Hindu 
Dallas, March 29, 2010 

An F-16 performs at the Aero India 2009 show. The aircraft's maker Lockheed Martin has assured India that the F-16s being offered to it would be better than the one provided to Pakistan. 
American aerospace giant Lockheed Martin on Monday assured India that the F-16s being offered to it would be &#8220;much more advanced&#8221; than the fighters provided to Pakistan. 

&#8220;I can assure you, the Super Viper is much more advanced in all aspects than the F-16s being given to Pakistan,&#8221; Lockheed Martin&#8217;s vice-president-Business Development (India) Orville Prins told a group of visiting Indian journalists here. 

The assurance comes in the wake of reports that India was concerned over U.S. supplying a new set of F-16s to Pakistan, a decision which could be a crucial geopolitical factor when the Indian Air Force (IAF) decides on the $10 billion Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, described as &#8216;mother of all deals&#8217; 

&#8220;The F-16IN Super Viper will be more advanced than the F-16 Block 60 that were delivered to the UAE recently. The fighter jets being given to Pakistan by the U.S. government are F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft,&#8221; Mr. Prins said here. 

However, the official said he would not discuss anything more about the company&#8217;s dealings with Pakistan, except the fact that it was not the firm that was selling anything to any country, but was just partnering with the U.S. Air Force. 

&#8220;We don&#8217;t sell, the U.S. government does. We only support the U.S. government&#8217;s decisions,&#8221; he said when queried about the U.S. military support to Pakistan in the form of a set of 18 new F-16 fighters. 

In fact, Mr. Prins tried to defend the military sale of his company&#8217;s fighter jets to Pakistan despite India&#8217;s protest, saying it was not just Lockheed Martin that was supplying to Islamabad, but all the six contenders in the MMRCA race were, either directly or indirectly. 

Other bidders in the MMRCA deal were U.S.&#8217; Boeing, French D&#8217;Assault, Swedish Gripen, European consortium EADS, and Russian MiG. 

The programme to deliver 18 F-16s to Pakistan, named as &#8216;Peace Drive I&#8217;, will raise the total number of F-16s ordered by Pakistan to 54. 

The &#8216;Peace Drive I&#8217; order is for 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds, all powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engine and these would be delivered by end of 2010. 

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) had received its first F-16 in the Block 15 F-16A/B configuration in 1982, but it has been operating Lockheed Martin aircraft since 1963, when it received C-130B transport aircraft. 

Block 50/52 is the eighth major modification block of the F-16. The Block 50/52 improvements &#8212; more powerful engine, colour cockpit displays, new electronic warfare suite, advanced weapons and sensors - are the direct result of combat experience. 

The Block 60 F-16, supplied to UAE recently, has a host of new systems that keep the fighter on the leading edge of technology. 

Conformal fuel tanks significantly extend the aircraft&#8217;s range with new, more advanced flight controls and radar detection capabilities, all-new avionics giving the pilots more sensor data and improved situational awareness. 

The F-16IN Super Viper, on the other hand, will share fifth generation technologies that are currently available on the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter and the F-22 Raptor, both Lockheed Martin products. 

&#8220;The Super Viper could be described as the ultimate fourth generation fighter, tailored exclusively to meet or exceed all of India&#8217;s MMRCA requirements,&#8221; Mr. Prins said. 

The Super Viper would have Northrop Grumman&#8217;s APG-80 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar, the only operational AESA in the international market today. 

&#8220;This revolutionary all-weather, precision targeting sensor has been exported by the United States government and is defending a sovereign nation today; no other MMRCA competitor can make that claim,&#8221; he added. 

The APG-80 AESA radar would provide outstanding situational awareness and detection; ultrahigh-resolution synthetic aperture radar mapping, fully interleaved modes of operations with automatic terrain following; and air-to-air tracking of multiple targets. 

The F-16IN would be powered by the highest thrust engine in the competition, the General Electric F110-132A, with 32,000-pound thrust and incorporates latest technology, including full authority digital engine control, for maximum fuel efficiency and performance. 

Keywords: F-16, Lockheed Martin, Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft, Indian Air Force


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## Kompromat

*Update:* All those 14 Block 52 are single seat variant only.

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## DANGER-ZONE

now a batch of 4 new f16 block 52 has been completed,they r coming home in June Inshallah.
*PAF F-16C block 52 #10901 is taxiing by the lens at NAS Fort Worth on December 15th, 2009 after performing a functional check flight*

still no CFT

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## Myth_buster_1

not posted before.

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## Windjammer



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## F86 Saber

danger-zone said:


> now a batch of 4 new f16 block 52 has been completed,they r coming home in June Inshallah.
> *PAF F-16C block 52 #10901 is taxiing by the lens at NAS Fort Worth on December 15th, 2009 after performing a functional check flight*
> 
> still no CFT



The picture is fake because the colors of the flag are not blending in with the paint job of the plane.......... 

Disclaimer: Sarcasm intended


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## Kompromat

Growler said:


> not posted before.





Sorry Growler this is not Block 52.

Block 52 has a Central Dorsal Spine for accomodating Electronics only in D model .







Regards:


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## MZUBAIR

danger-zone said:


> now a batch of 4 new f16 block 52 has been completed,they r coming home in June Inshallah.
> *PAF F-16C block 52 #10901 is taxiing by the lens at NAS Fort Worth on December 15th, 2009 after performing a functional check flight*
> 
> still no CFT



CFT may be in 18 New block 52..........but we are not sure .
But MLU is without CFT....I am sure abt that

Read the source below link

Read source post (Click here)


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## DANGER-ZONE

MZUBAIR said:


> CFT may be in 18 New block 52..........but we are not sure .
> But MLU is without CFT....I am sure abt that
> 
> Read the source below link
> 
> Read source post (Click here)



bro this is not MLU this is Block52.
see the serial 10901..for more details here is the inventory of overall f16 ordered by PAF.match the SR no.


> PAF Inventory
> Program	Model	Block	Qty.	Serials	Delivered
> Peace Gate I	F-16A	Block 15	2	82701/82702	1983
> F-16B	Block 15	4	82601/82604	1983
> Peace Gate II	F-16A	Block 15	26	83703, 84704/84719,
> 85720/85728	1983-1987
> F-16B	Block 15	8	82605, 84606/84608,
> 85609/85612	1983-1987
> Peace Gate III	F-16A	block 15OCU	6	91729, 92730/92734	embargoed
> F-16B	Block 15OCU	5	91613, 92614/92617	embargoed
> Peace Gate IV	F-16A	Block 15OCU	7	92735/92739, 93740/93741	embargoed
> F-16B	Block 15OCU	10	92618, 93619/93621,
> 94622/94624, 95625/95627	embargoed
> F-16A	Block 15OCU	41	9_742/9_782	stop-work
> F-16B	Block 15OCU	2	9_628/9_629	stop-work
> Peace Drive	F-16C	Block 52	12	10901/10912	2009-2010
> F-16D	Block 52	6	10801/10806	2009-2010
> Option	F-16C/D	Block 52	18	?	2009-2010


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## DANGER-ZONE

Growler said:


> not posted before.



LASH PASH.


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## Indestructible

Found an excellent picture of F16 BLK52 with CFTs. I hope ours have the same capabilities with no deductions to make the purchase cheap.


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## Indestructible

Note: Above is a Republic of Singapore Air Force F16.


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## Indestructible

Check this guys flicker album of Singapore Air Show. There are several pix of F16 BLK52.

Singapore Airshow 2010@ Changi Exhibition Centre - a set on Flickr


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## Indestructible




----------



## Indestructible

http://www.voodoo-world.cz/falcon/info.html

Sorry for flooding the thread


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## SQ8

Except for the block 60's the CFT's on the other blocks are designed for easy removal and addition. At this point these aircraft are undergoing pre delivery tests. And will at some point wear the CFT's. Have a little patience


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## Myth_buster_1

Black Blood said:


> Sorry Growler this is not Block 52.
> 
> Block 52 has a Central Dorsal Spine for accomodating Electronics only in D model .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards:



bro, this pic is of block 15 B which we received 2 years ago.


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## SBD-3

ISLAMABAD, Mar 27 (APP): Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman on Saturday said PAF would start getting the lot of 18 latest version of F-16 fighting falcon aircraft fitted with Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile system by June this year. Briefing newsmen on the on-going High Mark-2010 Exercise by PAF in collusion with Pakistan Army and Pakistan Navy, the Chief of Air Staff said the delivery of aircraft to Pakistan would complete by the end of current year.

He, however, did not disclose the number of BVR systems being acquired from the US, but said in addition to 18 F-16s, Pakistan has also been negotiating to get another lot of 14 aircraft of same version, besides getting other modern gadgets and weapons.
Our wish-list is unending, but we are heading with the realistic approach, he said when was asked about the PAFs wish-list from the US.

He said the indigenously developed aircraft with the help of friendly country China JF-17 (Thunder) has been producing much better results than expectations, especially its weapon system.

He told another questioner that the existing lot of F-16s in the PAF inventory would be upgraded to the level of Block 52 series in Turkey and the project would be completed by 2014.

Highlighting the importance of High Mark-2010, he said significance of the exercise could be gauged from the fact that the air force had been engaging all its assets, especially those recently inducted in its inventory like, Early Air Warning and Control System, JF-17 Thunder and Air to Air refueller.

Besides, he said Pakistan Army and Pakistan Navy have also been taking part in wholesome manner in the exercise which has been tailored to carry out joint and solo operations in accordance with the need that may occur.
He said the exercise is being carried out in the near to real situation with the aim to give mastery to the fighter pilots on avoiding collateral damage as in the past maximum efforts were made to avoid civilian casualties during the anti-terrorist operations.

Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman said this joint exercise not only focusses on to deal with the threat from the traditional rival, but also from the potential unconventional enemy.

When his attention was drawn towards the Indian doctrine of carrying out surgical strikes in the wake of Mumbai attacks, the PAF chief said the air force had immediately developed strategy to counter the threat which barred the adversary to opt for any extreme option.

Our response time during such situations is from 2 to 6 minutes from the ground, he responded in a firm manner. He said knowing the capability of PAF the adversary did not dare to take any step.

He said PAF has been keeping a watchful eye to safeguard the frontiers of the country and effective systems are already in place to meet with any situation.
In reply to a question, he said PAF had already been using
Unarmed Aerial Vehicle (UAV) technology for reconnaissance purposes while it hardly needs to go for armed aerial vehicle.

He said the Exercise High Mark is being carried out from the existing financial resources available with the PAF as no additional allocations have been sought from the government for the purpose.

Answering another question, he said the coalition forces hardly commit any violation of Pakistans air while Pakistan had always strongly protested in case of any airspace violation by the coalition forces in Afghanistan.

He said that Pakistan and India back in 1991 had reached a mutual agreement not to enter in air space from 10 km of the border with the aim to avoid any violations.

He said there was no threat from the western border while a sizeable number of aircraft are continuously guarding the eastern border, which are not a part of the exercise High Mark 2010.

Detailed briefings were also given to the senior media-persons who were especially invited by the Air Chief to impart first hand information on the exercise, which has been entering its most important phase of fire power show.

In the next phase which would be the culminating part of the exercise, contingents from Pakistan Army and Pakistan Navy would also participate.

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## araz

Why do we need to open a new thread for this news piece.There are already a few F16 threads on going.I think this thread should be merged with the PAF F16 thread.
MODS PLEASE MERGE THIS POST TO F16 THREAD.
Araz


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## Storm Force

52 F16s are a potent adversary for india.

They should be nervous. as your title suggested.


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## Koga Ryu

Pakistan to purchase 36 French fighters worth $ 4.2 Billion


* PAF chief says contract should be signed within 12 months
* PAF team evaluated fighter for past 2 years


ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will start getting 36 Rafale fighters from 2015 onwards, Chief of Air Staff Rao Qamar Suleman said on Thursday.

Briefing reporters on the on-going High Mark-2010 Exercise by PAF in collusion with the Pakistan Army and the Pakistan Navy, the air chief said the delivery of the aircrafts to Pakistan would complete by the end of 2016.

He said, in addition to 36 Rafales , Pakistan had also been negotiating to get French MICA missile and Radar for JF-17, besides getting other modern gadgets and weapons.


He said the new inductions were due to unpecedented increase in defence spending from Eastern neighbour and growth in their offensive capabilities.
The PAF chief informed reporters that other then some very advanced US fighters, the Rafale was umatched by any other plane in the world at the current time

When asked on funding for the new planes, PAF chief said current government had vowed to provide PAF with all available funding.
Noting that PAF would be first export customer for such a plane, ACM Rao said "This will give us a capability any adversery knows very little about and would be very difficult to counter by any power"


He said the PAF had already been using Unarmed Aerial Vehicle (UAV) technology for reconnaissance purposes while it hardly needs to go for armed aerial vehicle.

He said the coalition forces hardly commit any violations of Pakistans airspace while Islamabad had always strongly protested in case of any airspace violation by coalition forces in Afghanistan. app


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## aakalim

Koga Ryu said:


> Pakistan to purchase 36 French fighters worth $ 4.2 Billion
> 
> 
> * PAF chief says contract should be signed within 12 months
> * PAF team evaluated fighter for past 2 years
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will start getting 36 Rafale fighters from 2015 onwards, Chief of Air Staff Rao Qamar Suleman said on Thursday.
> 
> Briefing reporters on the on-going High Mark-2010 Exercise by PAF in collusion with the Pakistan Army and the Pakistan Navy, the air chief said the delivery of the aircrafts to Pakistan would complete by the end of 2016.
> 
> He said, in addition to 36 Rafales , Pakistan had also been negotiating to get French MICA missile and Radar for JF-17, besides getting other modern gadgets and weapons.
> 
> 
> He said the new inductions were due to unpecedented increase in defence spending from Eastern neighbour and growth in their offensive capabilities.
> The PAF chief informed reporters that other then some very advanced US fighters, the Rafale was umatched by any other plane in the world at the current time
> 
> When asked on funding for the new planes, PAF chief said current government had vowed to provide PAF with all available funding.
> Noting that PAF would be first export customer for such a plane, ACM Rao said "This will give us a capability any adversery knows very little about and would be very difficult to counter by any power"
> 
> 
> He said the PAF had already been using Unarmed Aerial Vehicle (UAV) technology for reconnaissance purposes while it hardly needs to go for armed aerial vehicle.
> 
> He said the coalition forces hardly commit any violations of Pakistans airspace while Islamabad had always strongly protested in case of any airspace violation by coalition forces in Afghanistan. app



its 1st April guys........


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## MAB

aakalim said:


> its 1st April guys........



Yes there is another thread on this in which the link provided doesn't work


----------



## BlackenTheSky




----------



## nightrider_saulat

does our block 52 carrys AESA radar?


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## sancho

nightrider_saulat said:


> does our block 52 carrys AESA radar?


No, only block 60 and above have AESA radar so far.


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## TaimiKhan

nightrider_saulat said:


> does our block 52 carrys AESA radar?



Nops, but Northrop Grumman is making one which can be fitted to older F-16s as an upgrade package, but no chance for us to get it, for now the APG series are better for us. 

The Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) is an active electronically scanned array (AESA) fire control radar being developed by Northrop Grumman using its own funding to equip light tactical aircraft such as the F-16 Fighting Falcon. The SABR multi-function array will offer the same performance and advantages of AESA radars provided to 5th generation fighters such as F-22 and F-35, but at an affordable cost. The new SABR radar will support the F-16 platform worldwide until the end of its service life which is expected by 2040 or later.

The current SABR developmental model developed by Northrop Grumman is designed to accommodate F-16 electrical and physical interfaces without modification to the aircraft. SABR will fit within currently defined power and cooling requirements and support the existing pilot-vehicle interface. Although currently being designed for F-16, Northrop Grumman claims that the array is scalable and adaptable to other platforms and missions. 


Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR)

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## nightrider_saulat

well answered taimi bhai


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## DANGER-ZONE

*some rocking new pictures of PAF old birds at LEJAS 2008*

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## P4Pakistan

danger-zone said:


> *some rocking new pictures of PAF old birds at LEJAS 2008*



what are they doing in PORTUGAL...???


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## nightrider_saulat

I think these are those 4 falcons which we have send in US for MLU


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## Myth_buster_1

P4Pakistan said:


> what are they doing in PORTUGAL...???





nightrider_saulat said:


> I think these are those 4 falcons which we have send in US for MLU



These are batch of 14 F-16 block 15 that were embargoed by US back in 90s and now all delivered to PAF. In these pictures they were en route to Pakistan via portugal from US.

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## nightrider_saulat

Growler said:


> These are batch of 14 F-16 block 15 that were embargoed by US back in 90s and now all delivered to PAF. In these pictures they were en route to Pakistan via portugal from US.



what about the rest of the 14 i think 28 were embargoed


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## yashraj

Why pakistan is accepting old model of F-16 from USA?

LHM already said that F-16 IN which they are offering to india is far more capable then PAF f-16. and this F-16 can stand up properly against Su-30 mki.

But india is already have more then 100 advance Su30mki and till 2015 more then 250 Su-30mki

u need to buy some thing more capable then Old models of F-16


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## nightrider_saulat

yashraj said:


> Why pakistan is accepting old model of F-16 from USA?
> 
> LHM already said that F-16 IN which they are offering to india is far more capable then PAF f-16. and this F-16 can stand up properly against Su-30 mki.
> 
> But india is already have more then 100 advance Su30mki and till 2015 more then 250 Su-30mki
> 
> u need to buy some thing more capable then Old models of F-16


wait for J-10B,F-16 BLOCK 52 AND JF-17 BLOCK III
they can easily match your MRCA and SU-30MKI


----------



## yashraj

nightrider_saulat said:


> wait for J-10B,F-16 BLOCK 52 AND JF-17 BLOCK III
> they can easily match your MRCA and SU-30MKI



USA already offered us Block 60 of F-16.
And about your cheap made in china junk..... first have a block -2 of it, but wait france already said NO to you
And about j-10b please see that from which they copy( BED COPY) it, we already use better then original of J-10B

And till you update your old junk then we will already start operating PAKFA

Think about it


----------



## bilal1219

yashraj said:


> USA already offered us Block 60 of F-16.
> And about your cheap made in china junk..... first have a block -2 of it, but wait france already said NO to you
> And about j-10b please see that from which they copy( BED COPY) it, we already use better then original of J-10B
> 
> And till you update your old junk then we will already start operating PAKFA
> 
> Think about it



Learn to talk to senior members, man.. Dont say stuff which is illogical and dosent have any pint behind them. btw, what he said, i agree with him. If u disagree, please bring ur logical aurguments to support ur answer to his post.


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## araz

Guys the best way to deal with him is to ignore him completely. Interestingly the serial Nos should have told you these were not the Block 15s that we originally got. Most of the serial Nos are 92s which means they were made in 1992, when we had already been embargoed. Therefore they could only have been our OCUs.
Araz

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## yashraj

araz said:


> Guys the best way to deal with him is to ignore him completely. Interestingly the serial Nos should have told you these were not the Block 15s that we originally got. Most of the serial Nos are 92s which means they were made in 1992, when we had already been embargoed. Therefore they could only have been our OCUs.
> Araz



Come on Araz,

the best fighter and ground attack plane is f-16 right?

Now USA offering us Block 60 of F-16IN, which they admited that it's FAR more supperior then any thing we are giveing to pakistan.

And ya F-16IN is not the best fighter in Indian MRCA, F-18,EF, Rafeal is more advance then F-16IN. so we are going to end up with far more supperiour any thing u have and in large no 124 or even 200. and we are going to have full TOT of that........... just image the senario...

And ya forgot to mention from 2016 onwards we are going to have full TOT of PAKFA

That's why my poin is that USA is not going to Offer you TOT of Even Block 50 of F-16(Which is old model), so you should go for more advance fighter then F-16.

And please don't tell that i am trolling........... i have just point out some HARD facts.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

yashraj said:


> Come on Araz,
> 
> the best fighter and ground attack plane is f-16 right?
> 
> Now USA offering us Block 60 of F-16IN, which they admited that it's FAR more supperior then any thing we are giveing to pakistan.
> 
> *And ya F-16IN is not the best fighter in Indian MRCA, F-18,EF, Rafeal is more advance then F-16IN. so we are going to end up with far more supperiour any thing u have and in large no 124 or even 200. and we are going to have full TOT of that........... just image the senario...*
> And ya forgot to mention from* 2016 onwards we are going to have full TOT of PAKFA*
> 
> *That's why my poin is that USA is not going to Offer you TOT* of Even Block 50 of F-16(Which is old model), so you should go for more advance fighter then F-16.
> 
> And please don't tell that i am trolling........... i have just point out some HARD facts.



Lol Money talks just few years back PAF was wanting to buy rafaels....About offering us TOT sunny if we bring billions$4 on the table i bet uncle Sam will offer us his little daughter just like frenchies or other europeans.
And yeah dont worry we will see the same economic bliss we had till 2007 (One of the fastest even india was behind).
Economic bliss and economic downfall never remain.
Things change....And we have been hearing about ur mrca since almost a decade now....when will u even go ahead?
Or are u waiting for us to go ahead with our much rumoured 150 FC-20 deal?
About Pak-fa im sorry but since almost 6 decades ur trying ur level best to make a simple jet but are u even near the induction????
Speaks volume.


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## yashraj

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Lol Money talks just few years back PAF was wanting to buy rafaels....About offering us TOT sunny if we bring billions$4 on the table i bet uncle Sam will offer us his little daughter just like frenchies or other europeans.
> And yeah dont worry we will see the same economic bliss we had till 2007 (One of the fastest even india was behind).
> Economic bliss and economic downfall never remain.
> Things change....And we have been hearing about ur mrca since almost a decade now....when will u even go ahead?
> Or are u waiting for us to go ahead with our much rumoured 150 FC-20 deal?
> About Pak-fa im sorry but since almost 6 decades ur trying ur level best to make a simple jet but are u even near the induction????
> Speaks volume.



you don't know any thing about Economics... Do you?

Ur current GDP is now about 400 BN $
Our around 1400 BN $(India is 12th largest in world)

So your 10% groth is about 40 BN $ year
And Our 5% groth is about 70 Bn $ year.

Now i hope you got the point......

and ya no one is going to give you State of the art technology because every one know that after few years china will start manufaturing BAD COPY of same

and see the effact of the MRCA compitition.... German scape your tander of Subs, and France Scape you JF-17 upgradation

and ya USA(So call your best friend in past) is giveing you old f-16(Block 50) and offering us Block-60


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## bilal1219

This is An Awesome video

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Great post Bilal. Thanks for sharing.


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## bilal1219

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Great post Bilal. Thanks for sharing.



Thanks Sir . Inshalah soon we will see the Fc20 added as well.


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## Stealth

araz said:


> Guys the best way to deal with him is to ignore him completely. Interestingly the serial Nos should have told you these were not the Block 15s that we originally got. Most of the serial Nos are 92s which means they were made in 1992, when we had already been embargoed. Therefore they could only have been our OCUs.
> Araz



ye khali bollywood movies may larka indian aur larki Pakistani dekhatay hain ham REALITY may ham PAkistani (larka) aur larki (indian) ko utha latay hain! 

enough example of bollywood dreamy people and reality base facts and figures!

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## kursed

Zeba Bakhtiyar is a Pakistani.


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## DANGER-ZONE

*PAF F-16B block 15 #85609 from the 38th TFW is parked on the tarmac with an Altis pod on the intake and an LGB under the wing station. The aircraft was lost December 18th, 1986*
that means PAF is much Experienced in guided bombings,cuz it was just the beginning of F16 era in PAF.

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## bilal1219

ENJOY

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## MZUBAIR

Look at the post from today's Nawawaqat. Indians stomach is totally upset.
We are getting F-16, they are upset.
We are getting avionics from France for JF-17, They are upset.
Malik is wedding with Sania, they are upset.

They are totally upset.

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## Stealth

MZUBAIR said:


> Look at the post from today's Nawawaqat. Indians stomach is totally upset.
> We are getting F-16, they are upset.
> We are getting avionics from France for JF-17, They are upset.
> Malik is wedding with Sania, they are upset.
> 
> They are totally upset.



LOL @ india as always!!  seriously CRY BABY!!!

kudh tu jesay Suzuki ke garyan kareed raha haina America say


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

np... they will get used to that feeling


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## shining eyes

hey people what are paf's longterm future plans?


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## MZUBAIR

shining eyes said:


> hey people what are paf's longterm future plans?



Only to replace old fleet A5, F-7 & Mirage with 4th and 4.5th AC's till 2015.


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## shining eyes

what are the plans for buying new superior jets?


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## ARIZ ZAFAR

MZUBAIR said:


> Only to replace old fleet A5, F-7 & Mirage with 4th and 4.5th AC's till 2015.



and that seem's quite unrealistic.any ways we are on the right track..


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## MZUBAIR

shining eyes said:


> what are the plans for buying new superior jets?



A5 will be gone by the end of this year or mid of next year.....would be replaced with 40-45 JF-17's Block I.

F-7 will be gone by the end of year 2013 or mid 2014 .....would be replaced with 100 JF-17's Block II.

Mirage III/V/ROSE will be gone by the end of year 2014 or mid 2015 .....would be replaced with few dozen JF-17's Block II and few dozen J-10B.

F-16 will remain. old 46 will be upgraded to BLock 52.
New 18 + 14 + 18 Block 52 will join PAF from June 2010 to Dec 2012.

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## Luftwaffe

MZUBAIR...not sure i don't think so A-5 Fantans will be retired this soon with in a year time.

F-7PGs have relatively new air frame and in good condition won't be gone by 2013.

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## sergente rehan

yashraj said:


> you don't know any thing about Economics... Do you?
> 
> Ur current GDP is now about 400 BN $
> Our around 1400 BN $(India is 12th largest in world)
> 
> So your 10% groth is about 40 BN $ year
> And Our 5% groth is about 70 Bn $ year.
> 
> Now i hope you got the point......
> 
> and ya no one is going to give you State of the art technology because every one know that after few years china will start manufaturing BAD COPY of same
> 
> and see the effact of the MRCA compitition.... German scape your tander of Subs, and France Scape you JF-17 upgradation
> 
> and ya USA(So call your best friend in past) is giveing you old f-16(Block 50) and offering us Block-60



Your comments perfectly disclose how educated you are in economics! You even don't know the diffrence btw PIL-N and PIL per capita!
Wikpedia isn't always correct...get another source.


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## Barrett

Friends let's study economics some other day and on a more relevant thread plz.

As far as the future plans of PAF are concerned, the decommissioning process of the older planes have already started with the induction of JF-17 by replacing A-5's of the 26 Sqn. A-5's will be replaced completely within another 12-16 months and then the Mirage III starting from 2012 - 2013.
The retirement of F-7PG and Mirage V will be complete by mid of 2015.
As far as F-16's are concerned we currently operate 41 F-16 block 15 and 1 F-16 block 52, the old block 15's will undergo MLU starting from Oct 2010 one per month and the new 17+14 F-16 block 52 will be delivered by the end of this year except for one plane that will be delivered in Dec 2011.
So this should be the inventory of F-16s in 2015 (41+18+14=73) +/-18

Cheers.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

will the Fantans be totally moth-balled, or will we donate/sell them to friendly countries like Nigeria or Bangladesh Air Force?

roughly how much service life is left on them?


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## DANGER-ZONE

81-0911 / 84713 (cn 5G-13) On the landing roll after complete a test flight. Ex USAF 81-0911, this F16A along with another one (F16B 82603) stayed at Lajes for 4 months and 3 days due some problems on the 82603 F16B engine. They were even coded 'L J'-Lajes on the tail in the third month as a ground crew joke!!! *The 2 F16s have already leave Lajes inbound to the United States were they will serve as prototypes for the Pakistan Air Force F-16 MLU Program*.

its happen long ago in 2008,i think these two might have done with MLU now.


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## Barrett

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> will the Fantans be totally moth-balled, or will we donate/sell them to friendly countries like Nigeria or Bangladesh Air Force?
> 
> roughly how much service life is left on them?



As per my knowledge no one has shown interest in the Fantans as most of our friends are very rich(arabs) who can afford fancy toys to show off in air shows and the poor ones don't have the money nor the expertise to maintain such an old AC, which PAF has done beautifully.

Though they will look great at fortress(lhr), Committe chowk(rwp), boat basin(khi) and few more, they have served our country well and the masses should know that F-16 is not the only plane we have

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## Barrett

danger-zone said:


> *The 2 F16s have already leave Lajes inbound to the United States were they will serve as prototypes for the Pakistan Air Force F-16 MLU Program*.
> 
> its happen long ago in 2008,i think these two might have done with MLU now.



The two ACs you are talking about are from the Peace gate III/IV.
I'm sure that we will receive one of them in Dec 2011, not sure about the other one.


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## Karakoram8 Eagle

Paf f16 bk52 in texas test flight!!!


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## DANGER-ZONE

Barrett said:


> The two ACs you are talking about are from the Peace gate III/IV.
> I'm sure that we will receive one of them in Dec 2011, not sure about the other one.



yup ur right,we will inshallah receive both after MLU cuz Pakistan getting all embargoed f 16 which were made and send to bone yard.
but i raised my point here for the news published in 2008 with picture and its 2010 now.i think these two would have been completely upgraded now.
any senior member can resolve this.


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## Mr. cool

danger-zone said:


> yup ur right,we will inshallah receive both after MLU cuz Pakistan getting all embargoed f 16 which were made and send to bone yard.
> but i raised my point here for the news published in 2008 with picture and its 2010 now.i think these two would have been completely upgraded now.
> any senior member can resolve this.



F-16 is indeed vary potent fighter cum bomber plane 

But i read some where that USA is giving Block-52 to Pakistan. But Why Pakistan is accepting it because Block-60 is already available in Market. In fact USA is offering India Block-60 with AESA radar!!!!!


I think Pakistan should on accept any thing Less then that

What do you say guys


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## Kompromat

Mr. cool said:


> F-16 is indeed vary potent fighter cum bomber plane
> 
> But i read some where that USA is giving Block-52 to Pakistan. But Why Pakistan is accepting it because Block-60 is already available in Market. In fact USA is offering India Block-60 with AESA radar!!!!!
> 
> 
> I think Pakistan should on accept any thing Less then that
> 
> What do you say guys



Dear sir Block 60 is very very expensive and simply we cant afford it in greater numbers.

The answer is Block52+ and Thunders + J-10B.

That is all we can afford to have at this stage and we will continue relying upon our home grown tactics and higer pilot Skills.

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## F86 Saber

Mr. cool said:


> F-16 is indeed vary potent fighter cum bomber plane
> 
> But i read some where that USA is giving Block-52 to Pakistan. But Why Pakistan is accepting it because Block-60 is already available in Market. In fact USA is offering India Block-60 with AESA radar!!!!!
> 
> 
> I think Pakistan should on accept any thing Less then that
> 
> What do you say guys



We guys say that you should go through some previous pages of this thread and some other threads in this forum and you will get your answer.


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## Mr. cool

Black Blood said:


> Dear sir Block 60 is very very expensive and simply we cant afford it in greater numbers.
> 
> The answer is Block52+ and Thunders + J-10B.
> 
> That is all we can afford to have at this stage and we will continue relying upon our home grown tactics and higer pilot Skills.



Dear friend,

Yes F-16 block-60 is expensive. and it's expense due to AESA radar, Vary advance avionics( Close to 5th generation fighter),RAM usages and many more advancement.

If you are purchasing J-10 then it's going to cost equal in new Logistics, Pilot traineeings, new facilitys and many more things........

Instead you could purchase vary potent F-16 Block 60 which can counter India Su-30MKI(270 in near future and all are with new avionics and AESA radar & with RAM) !!!!!!

China will give you Limited TOT on J-10. and no one will argue with me on that F-16 Block -60 is WAY WAY WAY better Fighter then J-10 

India is operating 4.5 Generation fighter form Decade or so but Pakistan only have 4th generation fighter(F-16 Block -52) now.

* India is moving with 5th generation fighter (PAKFA-250 in future)

* 4.5 th generation Fighters(Su 30mki - 270 , MMRCA-200 , LCA Block-2 - 200) 

* 4 th generation fighter (LCA -40 , MIG-29 SMT-100 , Mirage-2000 - 60)

Come on guys you can see form above examples that now pakistan also have to start towards some quality stuff the quantity..... (in fact in quantity india is ahead of pakistan in every military weapons)


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## Dazzler

Mr. Cool

Just a little suggestion for you as you seem to be jumping throughout the forum. If you do some research on this forum, you will find many threads and posts discussing these very matters that you have posted on various threads. Please, do us all this favor as it will increase your awareness and save precious bandwidth. 

Regards

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## Mr. cool

nabil_05 said:


> Mr. Cool
> 
> Just a little suggestion for you as you seem to be jumping throughout the forum. If you do some research on this forum, you will find many threads and posts discussing these very matters that you have posted on various threads. Please, do us all this favor as it will increase your awareness and save precious bandwidth.
> 
> Regards



I I Major


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## deckingraj

MZUBAIR said:


> A5 will be gone by the end of this year or mid of next year.....would be replaced with 40-45 JF-17's Block I.
> 
> F-7 will be gone by the end of year 2013 or mid 2014 .....would be replaced with 100 JF-17's Block II.
> 
> Mirage III/V/ROSE will be gone by the end of year 2014 or mid 2015 .....would be replaced with few dozen JF-17's Block II and few dozen J-10B.
> 
> F-16 will remain. old 46 will be upgraded to BLock 52.
> New 18 + 14 + 18 Block 52 will join PAF from June 2010 to Dec 2012.




I am a little confused with your numbers....


40-45 JF17 Block I by next year
100 JF17 Block II by 2013 or 2014
Another few Dozen JF17 Block II by 2014-2015


So we are saying that by 2015 PA will field around 180 JF17(Block I and II) in next 5 years??? This means 30-36 planes an year...You must be kidding.....


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## Taha Samad

deckingraj said:


> I am a little confused with your numbers....
> 
> 
> 40-45 JF17 Block I by next year
> 100 JF17 Block II by 2013 or 2014
> Another few Dozen JF17 Block II by 2014-2015
> 
> 
> So we are saying that by 2015 PA will field around 180 JF17(Block I and II) in next 5 years??? This means 30-36 planes an year...You must be kidding.....




Well nothing can said with certainty but Pakistan will increase its production capacity to 25-30 by 2011.Other than that China will also manufacture JF-17's for Pakistan and if China is able to deliever 15 aircrafts a year and Pakistan can produce 15-20 aircrafts locally then 30-35 aircraft target is not unachievable.

My analysis goes as follows 
first 50 by 2011
next hundred by 2015 
and by 2016-2017 we may have around 200 JF-17's

please watch the video of ex-acm's interview

sorry mods, for being off topic

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## Super Falcon

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljdg7YGgMFE


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## Super Falcon

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HApvU6vo26s&feature=related


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## deckingraj

tahasamad said:


> Well nothing can said with certainty but Pakistan will increase its production capacity to 25-30 by 2011.Other than that China will also manufacture JF-17's for Pakistan and if China is able to deliever 15 aircrafts a year and Pakistan can produce 15-20 aircrafts locally then 30-35 aircraft target is not unachievable.



Do you see any such signs on the ground where Pakistan is going to increase her productional capacity to 35-30 by 2011??? Not that i am suspecting your claims but this is a very significant work.... 

Secondly i would doubt that you would be asking China to produce these jets for you...Won't it be more costly option??? Anyhow please pardon my lack of knowledge in this aspect...30-35 planes an year sounds too big a number to swallow...



> My analysis goes as follows
> first 50 by 2011
> next hundred by 2015
> and by 2016-2017 we may have around 200 JF-17's
> 
> please watch the video of ex-acm's interview
> 
> sorry mods, for being off topic



Good luck with that....


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## TaimiKhan

deckingraj said:


> Do you see any such signs on the ground where Pakistan is going to increase her productional capacity to 35-30 by 2011??? Not that i am suspecting your claims but this is a very significant work....
> 
> Secondly i would doubt that you would be asking China to produce these jets for you...Won't it be more costly option??? Anyhow please pardon my lack of knowledge in this aspect...30-35 planes an year sounds too big a number to swallow...
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck with that....



8-10 for 2010 is the tareget, 14-16 is for 2011 and then later on increase it to 20-25 if required. 

And yes China is already manufacturing JF-17s, and in the last 2 quarters, has transported for final assembly at PAC 6 JF-17s.

Hopefully, by this year end, the total JF-17s number would reach 25-30 and the 50 target achieved by next year. 

The final total production capacity is to be set at around 20-25 for PAC, but that will depend on the orders received.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Mr. cool said:


> F-16 is indeed vary potent fighter cum bomber plane
> 
> But i read some where that USA is giving Block-52 to Pakistan. But Why Pakistan is accepting it because Block-60 is already available in Market. In fact USA is offering India Block-60 with AESA radar!!!!!
> 
> 
> I think Pakistan should on accept any thing Less then that
> 
> What do you say guys



Being offered and actually winning MRCA is two different things - we are at moment just concerned with upgrading of our fleet with Modern fighters 

F16 C/D is just one of the pieces we have a very diverse modernization plan


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## DANGER-ZONE

new on net but old pictures of embargoed f16 of PAF
they messed with our birds.....

*PAF F-16B block 15 #95627 is seen stored at AMARC after being embargoed*

*PAF F-16B block 15 #93619 is seen stored at AMARC after being embargoed*

*PAF F-16A block 15 #92734 is seen stored at AMARC after being embargoed*

only 93619 has delivered from above.other two still there.

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## Indestructible

Any chance of refund of embargoed planes or something?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

danger-zone said:


> new on net but old pictures of embargoed f16 of PAF
> they messed with our birds.....
> 
> *PAF F-16B block 15 #95627 is seen stored at AMARC after being embargoed*
> 
> *PAF F-16B block 15 #93619 is seen stored at AMARC after being embargoed*
> 
> *PAF F-16A block 15 #92734 is seen stored at AMARC after being embargoed*
> 
> only 93619 has delivered from above.other two still there.





Giving us those 30-40 embargoed F16 would be a honest thing to do and brave thing to do trust building move  its just a sad sad moment in our airforce history the 90s


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## Quwa

There were 28 embargoed F-16A/Bs, all part of Peace Gate III and Peace Gate IV...14 of them have been handed to PAF since 2005, the remainder are still with the U.S Navy. As of now, PAF is negotiating with USAF for 14-18 used F-16C/Ds in their place.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Mark Sien said:


> There were 28 embargoed F-16A/Bs, all part of Peace Gate III and Peace Gate IV...14 of them have been handed to PAF since 2005, the remainder are still with the U.S Navy. As of now, PAF is negotiating with USAF for 14-18 used F-16C/Ds in their place.



yup ur right....cuz US Navy walay un ko Ragra laga chukay hain and PAF need birds with good life.


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## Barrett

Mark Sien said:


> There were 28 embargoed F-16A/Bs, all part of Peace Gate III and Peace Gate IV...14 of them have been handed to PAF since 2005, the remainder are still with the U.S Navy. As of now, PAF is negotiating with USAF for 14-18 used F-16C/Ds in their place.



not 14 but Pakistan received 12 planes from peace gate III/IV under EDA
04 F-16A Block 15OCU (2005-08)
08 F-16B Block 15OCU (2005-08)

the remaining two are yet to arrive

Cheers

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## DANGER-ZONE

Barrett said:


> not 14 but Pakistan received 12 planes from peace gate III/IV under EDA
> 04 F-16A Block 15OCU (2005-08)
> 08 F-16B Block 15OCU (2005-08)
> 
> *the remaining two are yet to arrive*
> 
> Cheers



they will serve as prototype for MLU program of PAF f16s and i believe that they would have been upgraded and undergoing tests.


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## Defender.pk

NIGHT ATTACK CAPABILITY OF PAF BLOCK 15- F-16 WITH THOMSON ALTIS -2 POD IS DOUBTFUL ? AS I READ SOMWHER THAT ALTIS -2 IS FOR DAY ONLY USE


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## fatman17

Defender.pk said:


> NIGHT ATTACK CAPABILITY OF PAF BLOCK 15- F-16 WITH THOMSON ALTIS -2 POD IS DOUBTFUL ? AS I READ SOMWHER THAT ALTIS -2 IS FOR DAY ONLY USE



...and the Lantrin LDP???


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## monitor

as pakistan has option to get another 18 block 50/52 then why not try to get block 60 instead of that. it would surly enhance the already growing capability of paf


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## TOPGUN

monitor said:


> as pakistan has option to get another 18 block 50/52 then why not try to get block 60 instead of that. it would surly enhance the already growing capability of paf



We were not offered nor i think we will be even if we ask .. if you know or don't know block 52 is very advanced we are happy with it plus all older f-16 will go through mlu and will be close to block 52 standard we are happy with this for now .

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## nightrider_saulat

TOPGUN said:


> We were not offered nor i think we will be even if we ask .. if you know or don't know block 52 is very advanced we are happy with it plus all older f-16 will go through mlu and will be close to block 52 standard we are happy with this for now .



but as far i have heard we are also getting 14 more block 52 by the end of 2011 plus the original 18 in 2010


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## DANGER-ZONE

nightrider_saulat said:


> but as far i have heard we are also getting 14 more block 52 by the end of 2011 plus the original 18 in 2010



u surly heard it from media,isn't it?.
in reality we r negotiating for 14 more f16 block52 not getting them by the end of 2011 but hope so.


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## nightrider_saulat

danger-zone said:


> u surly heard it from media,isn't it?.
> in reality we r negotiating for 14 more f16 block52 not getting them by the end of 2011 but hope so.



i listen air chief's interview to local channel,
doesn't matter which forum or blog have telecast that statement


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## Mike Wilson

Hello,

Thanks for giving the nice information about the Pakistan F-16. I like it.

Thanks
Mike Wilson


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## kursed

US is sending a contingent of 50 military personnel along with 4 new F-16s in June, to ensure *that sophisticated, top-of-the-line avionics, weapons and data systems aboard the aircraft remain secure - as per the signed agreements*. Source: Washington Post


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## thunder rules

kursed said:


> US is sending a contingent of 50 military personnel along with 4 new F-16s in June, to ensure *that sophisticated, top-of-the-line avionics, weapons and data systems aboard the aircraft remain secure - as per the signed agreements*. Source: Washington Post



like we are getting f 16's for the first time.. we are operating f 16's for last 2 decades now so paf knows the importance of them.


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## ice_man

GUYS SOME BAD NEWS!!!!

U.S., Pakistan bolster joint efforts, treading delicately



*Under agreements connected to Pakistan's purchase of 18 F-16s scheduled for staggered delivery this year, a U.S. military team must be on hand to ensure that sophisticated, top-of-the-line avionics, weapons and data systems aboard the aircraft remain secure. The planes, which for the first time will allow Pakistan to conduct nighttime air operations, are far more advanced than the 30-year-old U.S. aircraft that are the current air force mainstay.

They will be housed at Shahbaz air base in south-central Pakistan, one of three bases where Pakistan allowed limited U.S. use for several years after the 2001 beginning of the war in Afghanistan. Far from advertising the arrival of a new contingent of Americans at Shahbaz, the Pakistani military is building a cloistered facility to house them amid some 5,000 of its own troops that will occupy the newly expanded base. Pakistani and U.S. military and intelligence officials spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to do so on the record. *


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## TechLahore

^^^
Nothing 'bad' about this news. They'll be our guests for a while and once they've had some tea and cake and made sure 52s don't co-habit with our chinese tech, they'll be off on their merry way.

Let's get over the 'kill switch' fear mongering. Exhibit A: Iranian Tomcats. Secondly, If the PAF/PAC are capable of producing fighter jets, I am sure they are capable of ensuring that such elements of fiction are absent from the equipment they take delivery of.

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## fatman17

ice_man said:


> GUYS SOME BAD NEWS!!!!
> 
> U.S., Pakistan bolster joint efforts, treading delicately
> 
> 
> 
> *Under agreements connected to Pakistan's purchase of 18 F-16s scheduled for staggered delivery this year, a U.S. military team must be on hand to ensure that sophisticated, top-of-the-line avionics, weapons and data systems aboard the aircraft remain secure. The planes, which for the first time will allow Pakistan to conduct nighttime air operations, are far more advanced than the 30-year-old U.S. aircraft that are the current air force mainstay.
> 
> They will be housed at Shahbaz air base in south-central Pakistan, one of three bases where Pakistan allowed limited U.S. use for several years after the 2001 beginning of the war in Afghanistan. Far from advertising the arrival of a new contingent of Americans at Shahbaz, the Pakistani military is building a cloistered facility to house them amid some 5,000 of its own troops that will occupy the newly expanded base. Pakistani and U.S. military and intelligence officials spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to do so on the record. *



pray tell what is the 'bad news' - this activity has been taking place ever since PAF has inducted US weapons systems.


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## MZUBAIR

Now thgis looks to me bad news from todays express news paper


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## Stealth

MZUBAIR said:


> Now thgis looks to me bad news from todays express news paper



Lanat hey!!

+ asay F16s par lanat jo koom ki aabro aur independent mulk kudh ko kahtay aur chaltay America kay kehnay pe ham kyoo unko idar anay den hamnay F16 maangay thay saath 50 Military walay nahe ... lanat Musharaf par jo mulk ko baech kar chala gaya hey!!! lanat asay F16s par inka kya karna hey jab kudh ko unkay haath may dayrakha hey!!!

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## hataf

MZUBAIR said:


> Now thgis looks to me bad news from todays express news paper





Stealth said:


> Lanat hey!!



spooooooooooot oooooooooooon


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## F-16.Net

First 8 block 52 pilots are due to graduate on the 4th. Read

*Pakistani pilots complete training in the US*

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## razgriz19

Defender.pk said:


> NIGHT ATTACK CAPABILITY OF PAF BLOCK 15- F-16 WITH THOMSON ALTIS -2 POD IS DOUBTFUL ? AS I READ SOMWHER THAT ALTIS -2 IS FOR DAY ONLY USE



yea...our current f-16s r blind at night


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## Kompromat

razgriz19 said:


> yea...our current f-16s r blind at night



They ain't Blind but their Capability is limited in night sorties.


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## ejaz007

*Pakistani pilots complete training in the US*


May 2, 2010 (by Asif Shamim) - Eight experienced Pakistan Air Force pilots, who have flown the F-16A/B, recently learned to fly the newer C/D model aircraft at the 162nd Fighter Wings, international F-16 training unit at Tucson International Airport. 

The graduation ceremony will be held at Pima Air and Space Museum on Tuesday, May 4. 

Guest speakers include Air Marshal Waseem Ud Din, the Pakistan Air Force deputy chief of staff, and Brig. Gen. Lyn D. Sherlock, the director of regional affairs, Office of the Deputy Under Secretary of the Air Force for International Affairs.

The pilots are the first to train in the US since the last Pakistani class was completed in 1983 at Luke AFB.

"This graduation is historic for U.S.-Pakistan relations," said Pakistan Air Force Wing Commander Ghazanfar Latif, a 12-year F-16A pilot. "For Pakistan, our air force is gaining capabilities that it has needed for the last decade; capabilities that are critical to ongoing operations in Pakistan's war on terror."

Pakistan has recently purchased 18 of the latest F-16C block 52 aircraft and is in the process of upgrading its 30 year old fleet of F-16s to the MLU standard. The block 52s allow pilots to conduct night operations and handle enhanced precision munitions.

The first four block 52s are due to arrive in country on June 26th at Shahbaz Air Base in the South-west province of Sindh.

In preparation for the June delivery, the eight pilots took on seven months of training in Tucson that included a transition course from the F-16A/B to the F-16C/D, flight lead upgrade training and instructor pilot certification so they can return home and teach others to fly the new F-16s.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article4080.html

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## F86 Saber

Stealth said:


> Lanat hey!!
> 
> + asay F16s par lanat jo koom ki aabro aur independent mulk kudh ko kahtay aur chaltay America kay kehnay pe ham kyoo unko idar anay den hamnay F16 maangay thay saath 50 Military walay nahe ... lanat Musharaf par jo mulk ko baech kar chala gaya hey!!! lanat asay F16s par inka kya karna hey jab kudh ko unkay haath may dayrakha hey!!!



Dude do you think uncle SAM needs an excuse to send troops to Pakistan? The last 200 troops brought nothing at least these 50 are bringing us 4 f-16s. 

BTW off topic but i don't think it's Musharrafs fault, infact if someone is to be blamed for this than we should blame our initial policies of joining hands with USA instead of Russia.

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## Patriot

F-16A are not blind during night.It's just that the accuracy would not be that good for A2G but with sniper pod it should be better.Also F16 can perform A2A 24/7 all type of weathers.F-16 intercepted INdian UAV at night in 2002.

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## All-Green

Stealth said:


> Lanat hey!!
> 
> + asay F16s par lanat jo koom ki aabro aur independent mulk kudh ko kahtay aur chaltay America kay kehnay pe ham kyoo unko idar anay den hamnay F16 maangay thay saath 50 Military walay nahe ... lanat Musharaf par jo mulk ko baech kar chala gaya hey!!! lanat asay F16s par inka kya karna hey jab kudh ko unkay haath may dayrakha hey!!!



My friend did you personally oversee the transaction terms that you know explicitly what we asked for and what we did not ask for?
I am saying this because this is something every country wants from the supplier, over here our media is making sure that even this normal thing seems as a secret plan of Uncle Sam.

Do you know that this is something normal and not out of the ordinary, be it US, China, France, there always was a presence of relevant support staff till some key induction milestones were achieved.

If the news is indeed true then there is no need to panic or be angered about.
The technicians and support staff are actually more needed by Pakistan to ensure a seamless and risk free transition onto these new birds.
I suggest you stop with the laan taan.

Does a 50 man strong team of technical and support staff pose such a risk to Pakistan or its sovereignty, when they shall be stationed in a remote and secure airbase?

We have thousands of openly anti state elements being sympathized by and even supported by our so called fundamentalists in the streets, still we are surviving...
In comparison what harm can 50 odd technical staff do to Pakistan when they shall be under the watchful eyes of our military and when their objective is to assist us in induction of US manufactured fighter jets?

Even in the telecommunications sector, when we buy some brand new and expensive equipment we really want the relevant vendor experts to come and stay in country for some time to see through the induction of equipment and provide support.

No need to get worked up over this, it is nothing out of the ordinary.
Certain circles in our media are always trying to create controversy and come up with breaking spicy news.

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## Patriot

Well i think its not such a good situation..LM Employees managed to disable Iranian F-14's (A lot of them) during War so what if the employees disable F-16 during war.PAF Intelligence Unit should keep a good look at these people.


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## Myth_buster_1

Patriot said:


> F-16A are not blind during night.It's just that the accuracy would not be that good for A2G but with sniper pod it should be better.Also F16 can perform A2A 24/7 all type of weathers.F-16 intercepted INdian UAV at night in 2002.



Yes F-16s are not blind at night with the use of NVG and ATLIS pod limited night mission capability is provided in AG role. the A/B block 15 are not capable of using Sniper pods in fact only when they are upgraded to block 52 level.


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## peacemaker10

Patriot said:


> Well i think its not such a good situation..LM Employees managed to disable Iranian F-14's (A lot of them) during War so what if the employees disable F-16 during war.PAF Intelligence Unit should keep a good look at these people.




I don't think there is anything to worry about. It is just to satisfy the congress. Everyone one knows once the planes are with PAF after some time no one cares what they are doing. 

Pakistan is no Iran, so not easy to disable planes just like that.


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## Stealth

All-Green said:


> My friend did you personally oversee the transaction terms that you know explicitly what we asked for and what we did not ask for?
> I am saying this because this is something every country wants from the supplier, over here our media is making sure that even this normal thing seems as a secret plan of Uncle Sam.
> 
> Do you know that this is something normal and not out of the ordinary, be it US, China, France, there always was a presence of relevant support staff till some key induction milestones were achieved.
> 
> If the news is indeed true then there is no need to panic or be angered about.
> The technicians and support staff are actually more needed by Pakistan to ensure a seamless and risk free transition onto these new birds.
> I suggest you stop with the laan taan.
> 
> Does a 50 man strong team of technical and support staff pose such a risk to Pakistan or its sovereignty, when they shall be stationed in a remote and secure airbase?
> 
> We have thousands of openly anti state elements being sympathized by and even supported by our so called fundamentalists in the streets, still we are surviving...
> In comparison what harm can 50 odd technical staff do to Pakistan when they shall be under the watchful eyes of our military and when their objective is to assist us in induction of US manufactured fighter jets?
> 
> Even in the telecommunications sector, when we buy some brand new and expensive equipment we really want the relevant vendor experts to come and stay in country for some time to see through the induction of equipment and provide support.
> 
> No need to get worked up over this, it is nothing out of the ordinary.
> Certain circles in our media are always trying to create controversy and come up with breaking spicy news.



These are not only 50's already bunch of US military in Pakistan bases ... Question is "WHY" ????? 

Where is American forces owned BASE in India ? No They are promoting India in every sector either its telecom, Miltiary, Media in every sector and on the other side they are continously pushing us in the hell from last 10 years.... seriously these 100 F16s cant do anything when leadership almost biki hoiee!

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## All-Green

Stealth said:


> These are not only 50's already bunch of US military in Pakistan bases ... Question is "WHY" ?????
> 
> Where is American forces owned BASE in India ? No They are promoting India in every sector either its telecom, Miltiary, Media in every sector and on the other side they are continously pushing us in the hell from last 10 years.... seriously these 100 F16s cant do anything when leadership almost biki hoiee!



Why?
Because we permitted them to be present here.
Because we have been having close ties with them since the 1950s!
Like it or not, be it PPP, PML-N, Dictators, Islamist political parties etc.
all have been dealing with USA in one way or another...only for the consumption of the nation they utter some criticism of the USA...it is all for show so as to detach themselves from the reality that our problems are due to our own failings.
What stopped us from establishing a clear cut strategic relationship on our own terms with USA?
Maybe we did bargain but always acted immaturely or without thinking things through.
Do we feel that we gained nothing from our previous treaties with USA?

Why did Ayub and Musharraf era bring in prosperity for the most part despite direct dealings with USA?
Did both these men not make poor personal choices which made them unpopular and had a negative impact; rather than USA directly causing a down slide?
Had both of them done some homework on the internal affairs they would still be very popular.

Malaysian leader Mahathir Mohamad was extremely critical of many of USA's policies but Malaysia did a lot of business with USA in his tenure...there has to be a balanced approach and one can deal with any country.

USA is a multicultural country with many millions of Muslims in it, many of our own relatives would be living in this country...attributing all evil in the world with USA is just not true...in the end they try to serve their interest...the onus lies onto us to ensure that we develop a mutually beneficial relationship, otherwise we should not have ever dealt with them.
Pakistan did gain a lot in the 60s but later threw it away due to the adventure in 65, 71 had nothing to do with USA but was our own failure.
In Afghan Jihad, it was Zia who made the biggest blunder of setting up permanent indoctrination centers and bases, for foreign and local fighters...
Why no one raised their voices then?
Because it was in the name of Islam...sadly the bases established in the name of Islam are never abandoned but multiply...much to our dismay.

USA was clear that nuclear weapons acquisition by Pakistan was not acceptable to it and thus occurred the famous 90s era cold shoulder which indeed was too cold, however we should have seen it coming ourselves too.
Why did we act surprised when we knew it was something USA openly opposed?
We should have accepted it as a cost we were willing to bear, however we as a nation do not want such burdens, we always try to blame others even if what they do is what they already have forewarned about.
The reason is that whenever we are asked to make a sacrifice we see our leaders in a different boat...in the end we care naught for such causes when our leaders do not sacrifice anything and ask of us all that we can do.

Now i am not saying USA is all that is good in this world, USA has made really poor choices in the past like any other country in order to serve their own interest, being a superpower their poor choices result in a global aftershock...however that is not what i am trying to defend at all...
What i am saying is that Pakistan did gain a lot in the past when it had close ties with USA so to say that we gained nothing is incorrect and contrary to the reality.

The leadership in Pakistan has been poor and sadly the average man in the street is yet to think beyond the USA bogey.

There are some questions that need to be processed by us and sincere answers need to be sought.

If we part ways with USA today, do you think our socioeconomic problems will go away?
Do you think the militants and terrorists will vanish if USA and Pakistan do not engage in any relationship?
If our internal leadership and government is strong do you feel that we can gain nothing by engaging USA in any strategic relationship whatsoever?
Should we trust the same Jamaat Islami, Jamiat Ulema Islam and all such factions which are not just anti US but extremely pro Taliban?


As you say our leadership is poor, i agree with you.
However would we better off with just this poor leadership alone or at least some cash inflow and items including F-16s etc. which can be used for benefit of Pakistan?
Mind you even in absence of USA our leadership will act the same and enjoy same luxuries, only we shall feel the pang of further economic deprivation...in my humble opinion.

To me any covert threat that US presence poses can be managed, the TTP and such rogues can never be managed in the same manner.


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## Stealth

@All-Green

Exactly you are right but i am not agree on this (about Taliban terriorist game) this BS made by US thats it... The Real Talibans have no interest with Pakistan they are freedom fighters and who invade thr country they will defintly defend and i am with THEM!

About those whom called "PAKISTANI TALIBANS" lol i always laugh on this statement Pakistani Talibans lol thr is no such talibans exsist in Pakistan they are funded terrorist and funds provide from Afghanistan under US umbrella (with the collaboration of International agencies like RAW, MOSSAD, CIA and rest of others related all those orgniazations who want to destablize Pakistan include (USA). If you are really interested in so called "Relationship" with Pakistan why we always suffer for military equipment ? loOk India dont have any threat but US offering state of the art weapons. Our economy crisis starts from 2007 not before we have very strong economy from 2002-2006. But US never offer us any weapon why ? just rest of 4 F16s. How anyone believe that these Block 52 F16s will deliver @ time ? no no one can and only 18 F16s cant do anything if we will go for any long scale war against our enemy thats the big "Question Mark". 

I am not Anti American even i am working in US firm. US people are really good actually i am damn against thr govt (full Zionist lobbies + now India interfernce). Look what happend with K.Bill ?? Bill belongs to Pakistan and Pakistan not even in debate when this K.bill under process. Anyway this debate never end just simply. We must out of this US lovly dovly relationship or make some rules in favour of our country.

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## bilal1219

Stealth said:


> @All-Green
> 
> Exactly you are right but i am not agree on this (about Taliban terriorist game) this BS made by US thats it... The Real Talibans have no interest with Pakistan they are freedom fighters and who invade thr country they will defintly defend and i am with THEM!
> 
> About those whom called "PAKISTANI TALIBANS" lol i always laugh on this statement Pakistani Talibans lol thr is no such talibans exsist in Pakistan they are funded terrorist and funds provide from Afghanistan under US umbrella (with the collaboration of International agencies like RAW, MOSSAD, CIA and rest of others related all those orgniazations who want to destablize Pakistan include (USA). If you are really interested in so called "Relationship" with Pakistan why we always suffer for military equipment ? loOk India dont have any threat but US offering state of the art weapons. Our economy crisis starts from 2007 not before we have very strong economy from 2002-2006. But US never offer us any weapon why ? just rest of 4 F16s. How anyone believe that these Block 52 F16s will deliver @ time ? no no one can and only 18 F16s cant do anything if we will go for any long scale war against our enemy thats the big "Question Mark".
> 
> I am not Anti American even i am working in US firm. US people are really good actually i am damn against thr govt (full Zionist lobbies + now India interfernce). Look what happend with K.Bill ?? Bill belongs to Pakistan and Pakistan not even in debate when this K.bill under process. Anyway this debate never end just simply. We must out of this US lovly dovly relationship or make some rules in favour of our country.



STEALTH BRO.. i support YOU 110%. These are the words of my mouth


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## laiqs@mi

@ Stealth

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## razgriz19

Patriot said:


> F-16A are not blind during night.It's just that the accuracy would not be that good for A2G but with sniper pod it should be better.Also *F16 can perform A2A 24/7 all type of weathers.F-16 intercepted INdian UAV at night in 2002*.



i kno that but our f-16s dont perform any ground attack sorties at night. upgraded mirage 5 perform them..
so thats why i said they r basically blind or u can say not "accurate"...


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## All-Green

Stealth said:


> @All-Green
> 
> Exactly you are right but i am not agree on this (about Taliban terriorist game) this BS made by US thats it... The Real Talibans have no interest with Pakistan they are freedom fighters and who invade thr country they will defintly defend and i am with THEM!
> 
> About those whom called "PAKISTANI TALIBANS" lol i always laugh on this statement Pakistani Talibans lol thr is no such talibans exsist in Pakistan they are funded terrorist and funds provide from Afghanistan under US umbrella (with the collaboration of International agencies like RAW, MOSSAD, CIA and rest of others related all those orgniazations who want to destablize Pakistan include (USA). If you are really interested in so called "Relationship" with Pakistan why we always suffer for military equipment ? loOk India dont have any threat but US offering state of the art weapons. Our economy crisis starts from 2007 not before we have very strong economy from 2002-2006. But US never offer us any weapon why ? just rest of 4 F16s. How anyone believe that these Block 52 F16s will deliver @ time ? no no one can and only 18 F16s cant do anything if we will go for any long scale war against our enemy thats the big "Question Mark".
> 
> I am not Anti American even i am working in US firm. US people are really good actually i am damn against thr govt (full Zionist lobbies + now India interfernce). Look what happend with K.Bill ?? Bill belongs to Pakistan and Pakistan not even in debate when this K.bill under process. Anyway this debate never end just simply. We must out of this US lovly dovly relationship or make some rules in favour of our country.



Stealth, the TTP is a fallout of our past mistakes, the sooner we realize this the better off we shall be.
It is an extremely bitter pill to swallow but you tell me what is the history of Lashkar e Jhangvi whose members now fill the ranks of TTP?
You know what this Laskhar has been doing much before 2001?
Why was it not dismembered and terminated by Pakistan?
Who was Riaz Basra and what did he do?
Who offered protection to him in Afghanistan?
You read about this all and you will see why i am fed up of our people blaming USA and not seeing what actually happened was due to Pakistan's policy mistakes and lack of resolve to tackle extremism when it started taking root in the country.

It pains me to see that our youth miss the part where Pakistan itself axed its foot, we have tolerated such nonsense in our country since decades without taking these extremists on.

When i was a kid and the Afghan Jihad was ongoing, the threat posed by the extremists coming into Pakistan was something which caused great concern to many educated Pakistanis, however Zia thought he could control it and use the situation in his favor, which he did by promoting religious parties in politics, parties which now openly support the local Taliban despite their terrorism inside Pakistan. Parties which always blame the government of Pakistan and USA for all the wrongs...parties which have done absolutely nothing for Pakistan.

The 70s and 80s saw an influx of extremism in Pakistan, who allowed this influx, who facilitated the extremist views?
Did Pakistan have naught to do with it?

Why would they fight us when we did not fight them?
They had it easy in the 80s and 90s when they established a foothold and no real tabs were kept on them.
They thought they had found an ally in Pakistan, it was just that Pakistan just let it all slide for fear of a conflict...Pakistan did not act because it thought these guys could be controlled and will not turn on their hosts.
Now we pay the price for our negligence and suffer because they are deeply embedded in many areas, had we not acted even now; i am afraid it would have become pointless to act.
Even now, it shall be a close shave.

Kerry Luger Bill is a bill for the US parliament, it is not binding on Pakistan!
We can go against the clauses if we want, however there really is nothing wrong with the bill if we review what our own Government was projecting at the time.
When our own government cited the fear that democracy is threatened because USA prefers to deal with dictators, this was factored in the Bill, should i cry foul about this?

For fear of further derailment, i have kept this short.
Do PM me if you want to discuss it further or let me know and we can take it up further on a relevant thread.

All the best
AG.

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## Sapper

razgriz19 said:


> i kno that but our f-16s dont perform any ground attack sorties at night. upgraded mirage 5 perform them..
> so thats why i said they r basically blind or u can say not "accurate"...



Pakistan F16's have 6~8Nm range for night strike and terrain following capability, which at the time of their induction in 1983 was considered cutting edge. Since then, we have failed to upgrade them since we were denied US technology compatible with F16's starting with embargoes in 1989.

Mirage 5's probably have 10~15Nm night time IR range (my guess) owing to their much recent upgrades starting in 1996 onward.

The New fleet of F16 Bl52 plus, and F16 Mlu will have Sniper pods with 40+Nm range (75+ Km). It will give a superior punch not only in A-to-G but in A-to-A and A-to-M targeting.

Regards,
Sapper

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## F-16.Net

A new article from 162nd Fighter Wing, now published on F-16.Net

*F-16 Training Bolsters U.S.-Pakistan Relations*

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## razgriz19



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## razgriz19

dont kno if someone already posted these...


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## Windjammer

The pilot in the back seat looks alike our FM, Shah.M.Qureshi.


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## mshoaib61

self delete


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## fatman17

*F-16 training bolsters U.S.-Pakistan relations *

May 4, 2010 (by Maj. Gabe Johnson) - Pakistan's air force soon will upgrade its 30-year-old fleet of F-16 Fighting Falcons, and the pilots charged with flying more capable fighters are ready to handle the new technology after training with the Arizona Air National Guard. 



PAF Squadron Leader Azman Khalil, left, goes over flight information with Capt. Andy Wittke, an instructor pilot at the 162nd FW, before a training mission on April 27, 2010. Khalil and seven other Pakistani pilots graduated from F-16C/D upgrade training at Tucson IAP on May 4, 2010. Eight Pakistan Air Force pilots, each experienced in the F-16A/B, recently learned to fly the newer C/D model aircraft at the 162nd Fighter Wing, the international F-16 training unit at Tucson International Airport. They were honored at a graduation ceremony on May 4. 

They are the first from their country to train in the United States since 1983 when the last class of Pakistani pilots trained at Luke Air Force Base, Ariz.

"This graduation is historic for U.S.-Pakistan relations," said Pakistan Air Force Wing Commander Ghazanfar Latif, a 12-year F-16A pilot. "For Pakistan, our air force is gaining capabilities that it has needed for the last decade; capabilities that are critical to ongoing operations in Pakistan's war on terror."

The new planes purchased by the Pakistani government, block 52 versions of the multi-role fighter, are far more advanced than the older A-model versions and will allow pilots to conduct operations at night and greatly enhance their use of precision munitions. 

The first four of the 18 total purchased are scheduled for delivery June 26 to Shahbaz air base in south-central Pakistan. The rest will be delivered on a staggered schedule throughout this year. In addition, their existing fleet will undergo a mid-life update in 2011 designed to upgrade cockpits and avionics to match the F-16C/D.

In preparation for the June delivery, the eight pilots and their families will have spent 10 months in the United States navigating the upgrade training pipeline.

They spent two and half months reviewing military aviation terminology at the Defense Language Institute at Lackland Air Force Base, Texas, and seven months in flight training at Tucson International Airport. Since the C/D-models used for training in Tucson are block 25 F-16s, they will next undergo two weeks of additional block 52 instruction before returning to Pakistan. 

"Even though they're flying block 25s here, they will still be able to operate their block 52s back home. When they leave here they will get training from Lockheed Martin in Fort Worth, Texas, on the differences," said Lt. Col. Kelly Parkinson, 195th Fighter Squadron commander. "The two blocks fly the same; it's essentially the employment of weapons that makes the difference." 

The bulk of their flight training in Tucson included a transition course from the F-16A/B to the F-16C/D, flight lead upgrade training and instructor pilot certification.

"We're training these eight pilots so they can return home and be instructors themselves and teach others to fly the new F-16s," said Colonel Parkinson, a 22-year fighter pilot.

"I think the training here is very well organized and tailored to our needs, also the standards here are very high," said Latif. "This is going to make a big difference because we do not have the capability to make precision engagements at night with A-models. Everybody understands that collateral damage is a big factor and the sensors on the C-model will help us carry out precision engagement and close air support."

With so much to learn, the students flew a rigorous schedule of five flights per week. The average student tempo is closer to three per week.

"The radar, datalink and other avionics help create the big picture of what is going on around you. There's lots of information to process in the C-model, so you have to prioritize all of the input you are getting," said Squadron Leader Yasir Malik. "But these instructors know what they are doing and they are good teachers."

Maj. Windy Hendrick, a flight commander and 13-year F-16 pilot, has instructed students from all over the world. She said she and her fellow instructors learned a great deal about their Pakistani counterparts. 

"They are all experienced pilots with 500 to 1,800 fighter hours in the F-16, and the majority of that time is combat hours in the fight against extremists," she said. "They are very humble and don't talk about their experience, but the more we learn about them and all they've done it makes us proud to be their instructors."

"They are very dedicated, hard working and they have great attitudes. Their presence in the squadron has been a real pleasure."

When flying over the military ranges of Southern Arizona, Pakistan's pilots had experienced instructors like Hendrick to guide them; but back on the ground they relied on the unit's international military student office (IMSO) for help with housing, transportation, documentation and adapting to American culture.

"We could not ask for more help from the IMSO office. They came to San Antonio to meet us before we came to Tucson to help us start our move," said Squadron Leader Malik. "They went to see apartments in Tucson to help us find living arrangements, and they set up many trips all over the state. We saw so many places that we would never have found on our own."

"We would have been more confused with trying to find a place to live and get adjusted if it weren't for IMSO."

It's unclear if more student pilots from Pakistan will train in Tucson; however, according to Colonel Parkinson, the 162nd stands ready.

"Training capable fighter pilots for our partner-nation air forces and fostering relationships in the world-wide F-16 community is what we do. We will continue to help train Pakistan's pilots whenever we're needed," he said.

*Courtesy of 162nd Fighter Wing Public Affairs*

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## DANGER-ZONE

*vital signs with F-16,early 90's.*

*PAF F-16A block 15 #84721 seen deployed at Maripur AFB*

*Two PAF F-16s seen with a USAF KC-135 tanker*

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## DANGER-ZONE

*super cool Picture*.

*PAF F-16A block 15 #84707 from the 11th sqn "Arrows" seen performing during 6th September (Pakistan's Defence Day) airshow*


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## S.U.R.B.

Windjammer said:


> The pilot in the back seat looks alike our FM, Shah.M.Qureshi.



 sir!


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## TOPGUN

So i take it we still don't know whats gona happen with the air refueling issue for our f-16's?


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## HAWK73

Windjammer said:


> The pilot in the back seat looks alike our FM, Shah.M.Qureshi.


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## HAWK73

F-16.Net said:


> First 8 block 52 pilots are due to graduate on the 4th. Read
> 
> *Pakistani pilots complete training in the US*



Right!
I saw that news on ARY ONE WORLD.


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## Imran Khan

Windjammer said:


> The pilot in the back seat looks alike our FM, Shah.M.Qureshi.



he is from ppp


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## nightrider_saulat

danger-zone said:


> *super cool Picture*.
> 
> *PAF F-16A block 15 #84707 from the 11th sqn "Arrows" seen performing during 6th September (Pakistan's Defence Day) airshow*



very muck looks like a hand painting


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## behram

danger-zone said:


> *vital signs with F-16,early 90's.*
> 
> *PAF F-16A block 15 #84721 seen deployed at Maripur AFB*
> 
> *Two PAF F-16s seen with a USAF KC-135 tanker*



Fantastic pics bro, do you happen to have a pic of F-16A 85720?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We do need about 20-24 more F16 for our airforce 

After that we should just focus on J10B and J11 etc

We need to prehaps upgrade our air defence capabilities from ground


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## umair86

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> We do need about 20-24 more F16 for our airforce
> 
> After that we should just focus on J10B and J11 etc
> 
> We need to prehaps upgrade our air defence capabilities from ground



20-24 F-16s would be fantastic.
Ground based airdefences should be boasted up with induction of Chinese low cost SAMs as soon as possible like KS-1A HQ-9 and FT-2000


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## ejaz007

*F-16 training bolsters U.S.-Pakistan relations*

May 4, 2010 (by Maj. Gabe Johnson) - Pakistan's air force soon will upgrade its 30-year-old fleet of F-16 Fighting Falcons, and the pilots charged with flying more capable fighters are ready to handle the new technology after training with the Arizona Air National Guard. 

PAF Squadron Leader Azman Khalil, left, goes over flight information with Capt. Andy Wittke, an instructor pilot at the 162nd FW, before a training mission on April 27, 2010. Khalil and seven other Pakistani pilots graduated from F-16C/D upgrade training at Tucson IAP on May 4, 2010. Eight Pakistan Air Force pilots, each experienced in the F-16A/B, recently learned to fly the newer C/D model aircraft at the 162nd Fighter Wing, the international F-16 training unit at Tucson International Airport. They were honored at a graduation ceremony on May 4. 

They are the first from their country to train in the United States since 1983 when the last class of Pakistani pilots trained at Luke Air Force Base, Ariz.

"This graduation is historic for U.S.-Pakistan relations," said Pakistan Air Force Wing Commander Ghazanfar Latif, a 12-year F-16A pilot. "For Pakistan, our air force is gaining capabilities that it has needed for the last decade; capabilities that are critical to ongoing operations in Pakistan's war on terror."

The new planes purchased by the Pakistani government, block 52 versions of the multi-role fighter, are far more advanced than the older A-model versions and will allow pilots to conduct operations at night and greatly enhance their use of precision munitions. 

The first four of the 18 total purchased are scheduled for delivery June 26 to Shahbaz air base in south-central Pakistan. The rest will be delivered on a staggered schedule throughout this year. In addition, their existing fleet will undergo a mid-life update in 2011 designed to upgrade cockpits and avionics to match the F-16C/D.

In preparation for the June delivery, the eight pilots and their families will have spent 10 months in the United States navigating the upgrade training pipeline.

They spent two and half months reviewing military aviation terminology at the Defense Language Institute at Lackland Air Force Base, Texas, and seven months in flight training at Tucson International Airport. Since the C/D-models used for training in Tucson are block 25 F-16s, they will next undergo two weeks of additional block 52 instruction before returning to Pakistan. 

"Even though they're flying block 25s here, they will still be able to operate their block 52s back home. When they leave here they will get training from Lockheed Martin in Fort Worth, Texas, on the differences," said Lt. Col. Kelly Parkinson, 195th Fighter Squadron commander. "The two blocks fly the same; it's essentially the employment of weapons that makes the difference." 

The bulk of their flight training in Tucson included a transition course from the F-16A/B to the F-16C/D, flight lead upgrade training and instructor pilot certification.

"We're training these eight pilots so they can return home and be instructors themselves and teach others to fly the new F-16s," said Colonel Parkinson, a 22-year fighter pilot.

"I think the training here is very well organized and tailored to our needs, also the standards here are very high," said Latif. "This is going to make a big difference because we do not have the capability to make precision engagements at night with A-models. Everybody understands that collateral damage is a big factor and the sensors on the C-model will help us carry out precision engagement and close air support."

With so much to learn, the students flew a rigorous schedule of five flights per week. The average student tempo is closer to three per week.

"The radar, datalink and other avionics help create the big picture of what is going on around you. There's lots of information to process in the C-model, so you have to prioritize all of the input you are getting," said Squadron Leader Yasir Malik. "But these instructors know what they are doing and they are good teachers."

Maj. Windy Hendrick, a flight commander and 13-year F-16 pilot, has instructed students from all over the world. She said she and her fellow instructors learned a great deal about their Pakistani counterparts. 

"They are all experienced pilots with 500 to 1,800 fighter hours in the F-16, and the majority of that time is combat hours in the fight against extremists," she said. "They are very humble and don't talk about their experience, but the more we learn about them and all they've done it makes us proud to be their instructors."

"They are very dedicated, hard working and they have great attitudes. Their presence in the squadron has been a real pleasure."

When flying over the military ranges of Southern Arizona, Pakistan's pilots had experienced instructors like Hendrick to guide them; but back on the ground they relied on the unit's international military student office (IMSO) for help with housing, transportation, documentation and adapting to American culture.

"We could not ask for more help from the IMSO office. They came to San Antonio to meet us before we came to Tucson to help us start our move," said Squadron Leader Malik. "They went to see apartments in Tucson to help us find living arrangements, and they set up many trips all over the state. We saw so many places that we would never have found on our own."

"We would have been more confused with trying to find a place to live and get adjusted if it weren't for IMSO."

It's unclear if more student pilots from Pakistan will train in Tucson; however, according to Colonel Parkinson, the 162nd stands ready.

"Training capable fighter pilots for our partner-nation air forces and fostering relationships in the world-wide F-16 community is what we do. We will continue to help train Pakistan's pilots whenever we're needed," he said.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article4087.html


----------



## ANG

http://www.alconbury.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100427-F-9244N-024.jpg

http://www.alconbury.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/photos/100427-F-9244N-011.jpg


----------



## fatman17

ejaz007 said:


> *F-16 training bolsters U.S.-Pakistan relations*
> 
> May 4, 2010 (by Maj. Gabe Johnson) - Pakistan's air force soon will upgrade its 30-year-old fleet of F-16 Fighting Falcons, and the pilots charged with flying more capable fighters are ready to handle the new technology after training with the Arizona Air National Guard.
> 
> PAF Squadron Leader Azman Khalil, left, goes over flight information with Capt. Andy Wittke, an instructor pilot at the 162nd FW, before a training mission on April 27, 2010. Khalil and seven other Pakistani pilots graduated from F-16C/D upgrade training at Tucson IAP on May 4, 2010. Eight Pakistan Air Force pilots, each experienced in the F-16A/B, recently learned to fly the newer C/D model aircraft at the 162nd Fighter Wing, the international F-16 training unit at Tucson International Airport. They were honored at a graduation ceremony on May 4.
> 
> They are the first from their country to train in the United States since 1983 when the last class of Pakistani pilots trained at Luke Air Force Base, Ariz.
> 
> "This graduation is historic for U.S.-Pakistan relations," said Pakistan Air Force Wing Commander Ghazanfar Latif, a 12-year F-16A pilot. "For Pakistan, our air force is gaining capabilities that it has needed for the last decade; capabilities that are critical to ongoing operations in Pakistan's war on terror."
> 
> The new planes purchased by the Pakistani government, block 52 versions of the multi-role fighter, are far more advanced than the older A-model versions and will allow pilots to conduct operations at night and greatly enhance their use of precision munitions.
> 
> The first four of the 18 total purchased are scheduled for delivery June 26 to Shahbaz air base in south-central Pakistan. The rest will be delivered on a staggered schedule throughout this year. In addition, their existing fleet will undergo a mid-life update in 2011 designed to upgrade cockpits and avionics to match the F-16C/D.
> 
> In preparation for the June delivery, the eight pilots and their families will have spent 10 months in the United States navigating the upgrade training pipeline.
> 
> They spent two and half months reviewing military aviation terminology at the Defense Language Institute at Lackland Air Force Base, Texas, and seven months in flight training at Tucson International Airport. Since the C/D-models used for training in Tucson are block 25 F-16s, they will next undergo two weeks of additional block 52 instruction before returning to Pakistan.
> 
> "Even though they're flying block 25s here, they will still be able to operate their block 52s back home. When they leave here they will get training from Lockheed Martin in Fort Worth, Texas, on the differences," said Lt. Col. Kelly Parkinson, 195th Fighter Squadron commander. "The two blocks fly the same; it's essentially the employment of weapons that makes the difference."
> 
> The bulk of their flight training in Tucson included a transition course from the F-16A/B to the F-16C/D, flight lead upgrade training and instructor pilot certification.
> 
> "We're training these eight pilots so they can return home and be instructors themselves and teach others to fly the new F-16s," said Colonel Parkinson, a 22-year fighter pilot.
> 
> "I think the training here is very well organized and tailored to our needs, also the standards here are very high," said Latif. "This is going to make a big difference because we do not have the capability to make precision engagements at night with A-models. Everybody understands that collateral damage is a big factor and the sensors on the C-model will help us carry out precision engagement and close air support."
> 
> With so much to learn, the students flew a rigorous schedule of five flights per week. The average student tempo is closer to three per week.
> 
> "The radar, datalink and other avionics help create the big picture of what is going on around you. There's lots of information to process in the C-model, so you have to prioritize all of the input you are getting," said Squadron Leader Yasir Malik. "But these instructors know what they are doing and they are good teachers."
> 
> Maj. Windy Hendrick, a flight commander and 13-year F-16 pilot, has instructed students from all over the world. She said she and her fellow instructors learned a great deal about their Pakistani counterparts.
> 
> "They are all experienced pilots with 500 to 1,800 fighter hours in the F-16, and the majority of that time is combat hours in the fight against extremists," she said. "They are very humble and don't talk about their experience, but the more we learn about them and all they've done it makes us proud to be their instructors."
> 
> "They are very dedicated, hard working and they have great attitudes. Their presence in the squadron has been a real pleasure."
> 
> When flying over the military ranges of Southern Arizona, Pakistan's pilots had experienced instructors like Hendrick to guide them; but back on the ground they relied on the unit's international military student office (IMSO) for help with housing, transportation, documentation and adapting to American culture.
> 
> "We could not ask for more help from the IMSO office. They came to San Antonio to meet us before we came to Tucson to help us start our move," said Squadron Leader Malik. "They went to see apartments in Tucson to help us find living arrangements, and they set up many trips all over the state. We saw so many places that we would never have found on our own."
> 
> "We would have been more confused with trying to find a place to live and get adjusted if it weren't for IMSO."
> 
> It's unclear if more student pilots from Pakistan will train in Tucson; however, according to Colonel Parkinson, the 162nd stands ready.
> 
> "Training capable fighter pilots for our partner-nation air forces and fostering relationships in the world-wide F-16 community is what we do. We will continue to help train Pakistan's pilots whenever we're needed," he said.
> 
> http://www.f-16.net/news_article4087.html



bhai already posted - takes a minute to check the thread before posting!


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## Windjammer

Guys, if you enlarge the above image, you can read the names of six of the PAF pilots on the monitor in the back ground.
I can make, A Khalil, S Khan, G Latif, Y Malik, S Masood and Z Munawar.

If i am not wrong, A Khalil (Picture) was part of No 9 Squadron which went to Turkey to participate in Antonio Eagle exercise.

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## MJaa

Pakistani air force pilots learned to fly the F-16 Fighting Falcon's newer C- and D-model at 162nd Fighter Wing


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## AVIAN

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> We do need about 20-24 more F16 for our airforce
> 
> After that we should just focus on J10B and J11 etc
> 
> We need to prehaps upgrade our air defence capabilities from ground



That ask for a lots of money and robust budgeting system in place to line up above inventory for air defence system. As long as Pakistani economy reeling under tremendous pressure till then it is very difficult to see above process to see light of the day.


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## TaimiKhan

AVIAN said:


> That ask for a lots of money and robust budgeting system in place to line up above inventory for air defence system. As long as Pakistani economy reeling under tremendous pressure till then it is very difficult to see above process to see light of the day.



Why you Indians are always worrying about our economy or budget ??

Has anyone of you ever seen how much our total budget is and what is the total budget or seen how much room we have to purchase such systems if its extremely urgent, as defence is the priority for every nation when it comes to that. 

So you guys, don't worry about our state of economy, we can accommodate such purchases if it comes to that.


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## AVIAN

TaimiKhan said:


> Why you Indians are always worrying about our economy or budget ??




Budget has everything to do with defence planning and war fighting procedures. This is highly relevent in the context of Pak to which Budget has always been an second rival when it comes to its modernization. And yes, same question you need to ask everone on this forum as why does they are worrying about India.



TaimiKhan said:


> Has anyone of you ever seen how much our total budget is and what is the total budget or seen how much room we have to purchase such systems if its extremely urgent, as defence is the priority for every nation when it comes to that.
> 
> So you guys, don't worry about our state of economy, we can accommodate such purchases if it comes to that.



Priorities has always been subject to certain limits. As far as last few years Pak struggle to armed forces modernization is concerned, total budget has always played a vital part slowing down much needed priority to modernize each and every branch.


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## Usama86

here is a little something about the budget 

Defence budget up by 96pc | Pakistan Daily

Pakistan is facing tremendous pressure in the budget 2009-10 because of the massive hike in defence and security related expenditures. &#8220;The Rs 343 billion allocation was originally made for defence which swelled up by about 96 percent to Rs 613 billion, as during Musharraf regime agreement to purchase some aircrafts were inked,&#8221; a senior official at Ministry of Finance told.


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## TaimiKhan

AVIAN said:


> Budget has everything to do with defence planning and war fighting procedures. This is highly relevent in the context of Pak to which Budget has always been an second rival when it comes to its modernization. And yes, same question you need to ask everone on this forum as why does they are worrying about India.



Pakistani's don't worry about Indian defence budget, as its their business, but yeah when Indian members come here and come up with the lines which you just said, then in a counter attack the Indian defence budget and other Indian issues come to life, but as said they are as a counter. India is growing, so will their budget, good luck to them. 

And as said, we have the resource and budget when it comes to that, meaning if something dire is needed. 




> Priorities has always been subject to certain limits. As far as last few years Pak struggle to armed forces modernization is concerned, total budget has always played a vital part slowing down much needed priority to modernize each and every branch.



Pakistan armed forces modernization plans are going fine, delays are always there, Pakistan facing it is not the first to see them. The unforeseen events of last 2 years, the military operations scale was not expected, but as thing are now coming to normal and major operations have wined down, the modernization would be on the track, plus major weapon systems have been paid for and the modernization plan if till 2019-20, still a decade to go. 

Hope the oligarchs start thinking about the country, then hopefully, all the worries would be gone, but whatever the issues we are facing is due to the Oligarchs in power, once they get themselves straight or are thrown out, economy will be on track, so will be the modernization.

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## zubbuz

February 16, 2010. Pakistan has urged the US to approve the ... the visit of Senator John Kerry, chairman of the US Senate's Foreign Relations Committee,


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## farhan_9909

what is the detection range of Apg 68 radar?


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## Luftwaffe

go back to page one of this thread read it through.


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## farhan_9909

will you plzz tell me it here..
its nt written in the first page

detection range

its written in the wiki that it has upto 300km range i dnt knw it is detection range or what


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## Paksindhi

Pakistan should be working on to get J10Bs or J11 from china, i dont trust american's, they will stop spare parts in case of war, and i heard that they have , this KILL button on F16's which rendom them useless, if they wish to, correct me if wroung.

Keep upgrading JF-17, go for J10B;s and J11 from china.

Dont relay on F-16's only.


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## bilal1219

Paksindhi said:


> Pakistan should be working on to get J10Bs or J11 from china, i dont trust american's, they will stop spare parts in case of war, and i heard that they have , this KILL button on F16's which rendom them useless, if they wish to, correct me if wroung.
> 
> Keep upgrading JF-17, go for J10B;s and J11 from china.
> 
> Dont relay on F-16's only.



Nope, You are wrong. There are no kill switch on the F16's we are getting couz there were none which we already have. In fact there was a thread opened by a member here and it was proven that f16s dont have no kill switch or else we wouldnt be buying it.


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## aliyusuf

farhan_9909 said:


> will you plzz tell me it here..
> its nt written in the first page
> 
> detection range
> 
> its written in the wiki that it has upto 300km range i dnt knw it is detection range or what



Source
*F-16.net - Thread Title : F-16 vs SU-30 - Page #4 of thread*

Please read the post by "*toan*" ....

Where he gives the detection ranges of the APG-68v9, which will equip our blk-52s, against fighters of different sizes & RCS ....

The maximal detection range for F-16I (*AN/APG-68V9*) to other fighters in head to head engagement: 
*1. Su-30MK: 115 ~ 130 km+ 
2. Su-35 with LO enhancement: 85 ~ 100 km 
3. MIG-29S: 95 ~ 110 km 
4. F-16 and MIG-29SMT with LO enhancement: 65 ~ 80 km *
....
hope this helps (this is from a thread on F-16.net back in 2004).


----------



## F86 Saber

Paksindhi said:


> Pakistan should be working on to get J10Bs or J11 from china, i dont trust american's, they will stop spare parts in case of war, and i heard that they have , this KILL button on F16's which rendom them useless, if they wish to, correct me if wroung.
> 
> Keep upgrading JF-17, go for J10B;s and J11 from china.
> 
> Dont relay on F-16's only.



So what do you suggest we do with the 40 odd F-16 A/B's that we already have considering we reject one's that'll be arriving starting june.


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## jagjitnatt

F86 Saber said:


> So what do you suggest we do with the 40 odd F-16 A/B's that we already have considering we reject one's that'll be arriving starting june.



Those F16s are getting the MLU upgrade that will make your F16s somewhere between block 40 and block 52.

Newer F16s you're getting are F16 block 52. So nothing to worry here.


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## umair86

jagjitnatt said:


> Those F16s are getting the MLU upgrade that will make your F16s somewhere between block 40 and block 52.
> 
> Newer F16s you're getting are F16 block 52. So nothing to worry here.



Avionics package is same as Newer blk52+ for F-16A/B MLU only difference is in payload and endurance.


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## Defender.pk

AGM-88 are comming in package or not and HARM targeting system installed or not


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## fatman17

*11 May 1979 
Delivery of F-16A #78-0007, the first F-16 built on the assembly line. All previous F-16s (16 in total) were built by hand.*


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## wali87

jagjitnatt said:


> Those F16s are getting the MLU upgrade that will make your F16s somewhere between block 40 and block 52.
> 
> Newer F16s you're getting are F16 block 52. So nothing to worry here.



the term 'somewhere between' doesnt exist in this context... lol more like up to the block 52 standards. which includes structural upgrades aswell which means the payload will also be at par with that carried by the new block 52.. only difference is the corformal fuel tanks.. which can also be added but are optional.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Assembly line doesnot mean that they are not built by hand----previously---the plane being built was possibly in a static position from start to finish.

Now on an assembly line----one party completes one project---then the plane moves ahead another plane takes its place---the next party completes the next job---and the plane is pushed forward to the next party---.

What that means is that one station is manned by a crew with all the tools and and accessories to do that one job---then the next station has techs with tool and accessories for the second job and so on till the last man tightens the final screw and kicks the tires.

Majority of work is still done by hand----this assembly line is not like the automobile assembly line where the robots are doing their thing.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

engines too....everything else will be block 52 standard.

TAI won tender through LM to uprgade Jordanian F-16s. You can see how those turned out


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## wali87

What really matters is that these MLU-ed F-16s will be armed with the AIM-120v5 which Pakistan is getting. So basically we'll have 82 F-16s. 

Leaving us with the remaining 10 F-16s from peace gate to worry about. I heard someone saying here that PAF is negotiating for block 30s from the USAF instead of these old blk 15s.
Someone please shed some light on the remaining 10.


----------



## razgriz19

umair86 said:


> Avionics package is same as Newer blk52+ for F-16A/B MLU *only difference is in payload and endurance*.



yup because engines will remain same and untouch...
they wont be getting any upgrades or newer engines


----------



## Jigs

Yeah the engines are not changed with the MLU upgrade. structural upgrade and avionics upgrade (To CCIP standard) are done.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Seems like paf is happy with the engine---it is doing a good job for them---why fix if it is not broken. A new engine will mean new headaches---new tools and a new batch of staff to train---what would a new engine bring to the table---not much I guess---stay with the old and reliable.


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## PurpleButcher

F-16 Block 52 C/D to be stationed at Jacobabad Airbase 

source "Dunya News"


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## PurpleButcher

Furthermore the airbase will be made operational by June 
source ARY NEWS


----------



## nightrider_saulat

PurpleButcher said:


> F-16 Block 52 C/D to be stationed at Jacobabad Airbase
> 
> source "Dunya News"





PurpleButcher said:


> Furthermore the airbase will be made operational by June
> source ARY NEWS



oh that's a great news


----------



## Jigs

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Seems like paf is happy with the engine---it is doing a good job for them---why fix if it is not broken. A new engine will mean new headaches---new tools and a new batch of staff to train---what would a new engine bring to the table---not much I guess---stay with the old and reliable.



Yep no point to go GE if your fleet is PW based. Plus current engines of both companies a very similar in performance with the GE just a little ahead from what maintenance crews and pilots are posting on F-16.net.


----------



## Arsalan

TaimiKhan said:


> *Pakistani's don't worry about Indian defence budget, as its their business, but yeah when Indian members come here and come up with the lines which you just said, then in a counter attack the Indian defence budget and other Indian issues come to life, but as said they are as a counter. India is growing, so will their budget, good luck to them.
> 
> And as said, we have the resource and budget when it comes to that, meaning if something dire is needed. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan armed forces modernization plans are going fine, delays are always there, Pakistan facing it is not the first to see them. The unforeseen events of last 2 years, the military operations scale was not expected, but as thing are now coming to normal and major operations have wined down, the modernization would be on the track, plus major weapon systems have been paid for and the modernization plan if till 2019-20, still a decade to go.
> 
> Hope the oligarchs start thinking about the country, then hopefully, all the worries would be gone, but whatever the issues we are facing is due to the Oligarchs in power, once they get themselves straight or are thrown out, economy will be on track, so will be the modernization.



well pointed..
moreover do consider that they have a border almost five time bigger then our to protect and have also to keep-up with China!!

we cannot spend billions on defense just because India does so...

regards!

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

100-400 UAV would be great to petrol the border area and smugglers 


F16 C/D + Thunder + J10B 

Should be ample force for any air based intrusion


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## TOPGUN

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 100-400 UAV would be great to petrol the border area and smugglers
> 
> 
> F16 C/D + Thunder + J10B
> 
> Should be ample force for any air based intrusion



Comon 100 to 400 uav ? are you serious..


----------



## razgriz19

TOPGUN said:


> Comon 100 to 400 uav ? are you serious..



LOL AZAD sir has a very long wish list for PAF!


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## TOPGUN

razgriz19 said:


> LOL AZAD sir has a very long wish list for PAF!



Yes i know lolz if he wins the worlds lottey one day .. i would vote for him to be the next PAF ACM.


----------



## hataf

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 100-400 UAV would be great to petrol the border area and smugglers
> 
> 
> F16 C/D + Thunder + J10B
> 
> Should be ample force for any air based intrusion





TOPGUN said:


> Comon 100 to 400 uav ? are you serious..





razgriz19 said:


> LOL AZAD sir has a very long wish list for PAF!





TOPGUN said:


> Yes i know lolz if he wins the worlds lottey one day .. i would vote for him to be the next PAF ACM.



he is azzadpakistan

and he really want to see pakistan as supreme nation 

like your ambitions


----------



## air marshal

Pakistan Air Force has started work on turning Jacobabad Air Base, which was used by allied forces in the past, from forward base to complete operational base.The Jacobabad base would be used as squadron base for F-16s that Pakistan would be getting from the US. 

Defense sources told Online that Jacobabad airbase that has so far been used as forward airbase to be used in an event of war or emergency would be turned to complete operational base.The 14 F-16 52D planes to be given by US would be brought here and their set up would be created here which would include maintenance and refurbishing of the.

Defense sources told that making this base into an operational one would not only enhance the strength of PAF but would also enhance the strategic importance.According to Air force sources, the base would be completed by 20th June this year.

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## air marshal



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## indiarocks

z9-ec said:


> Lockheed to supply F-16, C-130, P 3 Orion to Pakistan
> 
> KARACHI, Nov 26 (APP) - Lockheed Martin, USA will supply upgraded F-16 jets, C-130 transport planes and P 3 Orion surveillance aircraft to Pakistan armed forces. This was stated by President Lockheed Martin, Middle East and Africa, Gen (rtd) James Jamerson in an interview here Wednesday.
> 
> To a question, he said that he had meetings with top officials of Ministry of Defence, Chief of Naval Staff and Air Chief of Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> I have discussed with the Naval Chief the Orion aircraft up-gradation project, he said mentioning that Orion aircraft were being upgraded for Pakistan Navy in the United States and they will soon come to Pakistan.
> 
> *Regarding the supply of F-16 jets, he said that these fighters were upgraded and overhauled in Pakistan as well as in USA.
> 
> We are also supplying equipment and parts to Pakistan for F-16s overhauled in Pakistan. Similarly, we are also upgrading F-16s in USA for supply to Pakistan, said the Lockheed Martin President.
> *
> James said that his company was also upgrading a number of C-130 for Pakistan Air Force in USA.
> 
> *He did not mention the exact number of these jets and aircraft saying the number was significant.*



well i feel the money pakistan is spending on china spa,a-100 should be spent on south african denel....and also pakistan should come out of f-16 era and invest in saab gripen....i feel thats the only plane it will be offered if mrca competion rejects it.....rafale has some imp. bussiness with indian navy....also typhoon cant be offered as eads is in final talking with hal.....for aesa radar for amca,lca as well as the bae is a major contender for jaguar upgrade as well as bofors maintainance.........seriously no hard feelings just telling ma feelings


----------



## farhan_9909

indiarocks said:


> well i feel the money pakistan is spending on china spa,a-100 should be spent on south african denel....and also pakistan should come out of f-16 era and invest in saab gripen....i feel thats the only plane it will be offered if mrca competion rejects it.....rafale has some imp. bussiness with indian navy....also typhoon cant be offered as eads is in final talking with hal.....for aesa radar for amca,lca as well as the bae is a major contender for jaguar upgrade as well as bofors maintainance.........seriously no hard feelings just telling ma feelings



f-16 is better then gripen
and our jf-17 block II can be similar to gripen
Also france can give us rafale if we want and if we can afford rafale..


----------



## Gin ka Pakistan

> Originally Posted by PurpleButcher View Post
> F-16 Block 52 C/D to be stationed at Jacobabad Airbase
> 
> source "Dunya News"



Good Pakistan's soft belly Sind (as called by Indians) will now get some abbs


----------



## Imran Khan

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh june june june i am damn waiting this june from last 5 years.to hell june please come.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Sunny4pak

Air Marshall you are great..........thanks for sharing...

regards,
sunny


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## DANGER-ZONE

Imran Khan said:


> ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh june june june i am damn waiting this june from last 5 years.to hell june please come.



y dont u n i try to get there as a fake NEWS REPORTERS with high resolution cameras....


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## Imran Khan

danger-zone said:


> y dont u n i try to get there as a fake NEWS REPORTERS with high resolution cameras....



i have 12.1 mega pixl sony camera but my passport is expied i try to renew last year in riyadh they told me make your computer ID card or next time don't come. i make ID card but now i have no time for renew my passport


----------



## TOPGUN

hataf said:


> he is azzadpakistan
> 
> and he really want to see pakistan as supreme nation
> 
> like your ambitions



Yes and iam TOPGUN>> and i would like to see our PAF grow but .. having crazy unrealitic wish lists doesn't serve a purpose on this forum being real with current affairs & facts does thankyou very much.


----------



## thunder rules

air marshal said:


> Pakistan Air Force has started work on turning Jacobabad Air Base, which was used by allied forces in the past, from forward base to complete operational base.The Jacobabad base would be used as squadron base for F-16s that Pakistan would be getting from the US.
> 
> Defense sources told Online that Jacobabad airbase that has so far been used as forward airbase to be used in an event of war or emergency would be turned to complete operational base.The 14 F-16 52D planes to be given by US would be brought here and their set up would be created here which would include maintenance and refurbishing of the.
> 
> Defense sources told that making this base into an operational one would not only enhance the strength of PAF but would also enhance the strategic importance.According to Air force sources, the base would be completed by 20th June this year.



wow jacoabad is my home town..


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## fatman17

*ON THIS DATE*
17 May 1986 
A Pakistani F-16 shoots down a Su-22 of the Afghan Air Force, making Pakistan the second country after Israel to put F-16s into military action.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

AzadPakistan is the man....

400 UAVs is overkill though. It's better to keep a dozen or so in the air at all times.

Our previous Air Marshal did make mention of PAF formally inducting squadron(s) of UAVs, I think by 2012. (Maybe earlier).

They are already being operated.


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## fatman17

AMERICAS, THE 
Date Posted: 20-May-2010 


Jane's Defence Weekly 


*USAF develops roadmap for future F-16 upgrades*

Caitlin Harrington JDW Staff Reporter - Washington, DC

The US Air Force ( USAF) is developing a roadmap for the future development of the Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft, known as 'Long Term Viper', according to a senior official at US Air Combat Command (ACC). 

The document outlines what would be required if the USAF was to extend the life of the F-16 beyond 8,000 flying hours. Senior officials could decide to extend the aircraft's life if the development schedule for Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter continues to meet delays. 

"We've tried to put together a concept going forward that we refer to as Long Term Viper that is trying to [identify] gaps in our capabilities," said Colonel Tim Forsyth, chief of the ACC's Combat Air Division, in a 19 May interview with Jane's . "It's a mitigation tool if, and only if, our leadership chooses to take it." 

The Long Term Viper concept is intended to improve the structural integrity of the F-16 as well as the capabilities of the fighter, he said. 

Structural improvements will be determined by a full-scale fatigue test on the newer Block 50 F-16 over the next several years, according to Col Forsyth. During that test, a contractor will put the fighter on a jig and attach it to strain gauges, bending and twisting the aircraft to determine which parts are most vulnerable to fatigue. 

In terms of capabilities, Long Term Viper calls for bigger cockpit displays, a new electronic warfare suite and the addition of an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. Two companies, Raytheon and Northrop Grumman, are developing AESA systems to meet the F-16's power and cooling requirements. 

Col Forsyth said that another objective would be improved communications systems that can allow information exchange between the F-16 and fifth-generation aircraft like the F-35.

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## MZUBAIR

fatman17 said:


> AMERICAS, THE
> Date Posted: 20-May-2010
> 
> 
> Jane's Defence Weekly
> 
> 
> *USAF develops roadmap for future F-16 upgrades*
> 
> Caitlin Harrington JDW Staff Reporter - Washington, DC
> 
> The US Air Force ( USAF) is developing a roadmap for the future development of the Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft, known as 'Long Term Viper', according to a senior official at US Air Combat Command (ACC).
> 
> The document outlines what would be required if the USAF was to extend the life of the F-16 beyond 8,000 flying hours. Senior officials could decide to extend the aircraft's life if the development schedule for Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter continues to meet delays.
> 
> "We've tried to put together a concept going forward that we refer to as Long Term Viper that is trying to [identify] gaps in our capabilities," said Colonel Tim Forsyth, chief of the ACC's Combat Air Division, in a 19 May interview with Jane's . "It's a mitigation tool if, and only if, our leadership chooses to take it."
> 
> The Long Term Viper concept is intended to improve the structural integrity of the F-16 as well as the capabilities of the fighter, he said.
> 
> Structural improvements will be determined by a full-scale fatigue test on the newer Block 50 F-16 over the next several years, according to Col Forsyth. During that test, a contractor will put the fighter on a jig and attach it to strain gauges, bending and twisting the aircraft to determine which parts are most vulnerable to fatigue.
> 
> In terms of capabilities, Long Term Viper calls for bigger cockpit displays, a new electronic warfare suite and the addition of an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. Two companies, Raytheon and Northrop Grumman, are developing AESA systems to meet the F-16's power and cooling requirements.
> 
> Col Forsyth said that another objective would be improved communications systems that can allow information exchange between the F-16 and fifth-generation aircraft like the F-35.



Good post Sir,

That upgraded model with bigger cockpit, AESA radar might be called Block 70


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## araz

Guys 
Look at what I found!!




> 5.1B Proposed in Sales, Upgrades, Weapons for Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s
> 23-May-2010 16:43 EDT
> 
> Related Stories: Alliances, Americas - USA, Asia - Central, Asia - India, Avionics, BAE, Boeing, Bombs - General, Bombs - Smart, Contracts - Awards, Contracts - Intent, ECM, Fighters & Attack, Issues - International, Issues - Political, Lockheed Martin, Missiles - Air-Air, Northrop-Grumman, Other Corporation, Radars, Raytheon, Sensors & Guidance, Spotlight articles, Support & Maintenance, Support Functions - Other, United Technologies
> 
> Advertisement
> PAF F-16A drops Mk.82s
> (click to view full)Major purchase of 53 upgrade kits. (May 21/10)
> 
> On June 28/06, the US DSCA notified Congress via a series of releases of its intention to provide Pakistan with a $5.1 billion Foreign Military Sales package to upgrade the F-16s that serve as the PAF&#8217;s top of the line fighters. Some of these items had been put on hold following the October 2005 earthquake in Pakistan & Kashmir, but the request for 36 new F-16 Block 50/52s is now going ahead, along with new weapons, engine modifications, and upgrade kits for Pakistan&#8217;s older F-16 A/Bs.
> 
> These items are detailed below, along with controversies the proposed sales have created, and some of the conditions attached to the sale by the US government&#8230;
> 
> Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s &#8211; $3 billion
> Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s &#8211; $650 Million
> Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits &#8211; $1.3 billion
> Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR &#8211; $151 Million
> Deal Updates and Progress [updated]
> Potential Controversies (July 5, 2006)
> Displaying 169 of 3,986 words (about 10 pages)


Source defence industry daily
Araz
PS: would any member be able to get the full article to read here!!!!

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## TOPGUN

So in reality all the stories state 18 new f-16 with option of 18 more .. hence, in this story that Araz bahi shared with us it shows as 36 not 18 more for option? beats me... but good stuff.


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## araz

TG
I would wait a bit and get confirmed news to find out what really is going on. The news was first broken on pakdef.info. This is all that I could find on the subject.We need to wait for a while.
Rgeards
Araz


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## ironman

araz said:


> Guys
> Look at what I found!!
> 
> 
> 
> Source defence industry daily
> Araz
> PS: would any member be able to get the full article to read here!!!!



That is the part of an old news.. Usually Defence Industry Daily lists all connected reports by date wise to get the continuation. 

Here is the old report.



> Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s - $3 billion
> 
> The package for Pakistan's new F-16s also includes:
> 
> * 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft with either the F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs) and APG-68(V)9 radars;
> * 7 spare F100-PW-229 IPE or F110-GE-129 IPE engines;
> * 7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets;
> * 36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
> * 36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II;
> * 36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircraft's sides to give them extra range;
> * 36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; DID has covered the tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems;
> * 36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems;
> * 36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
> * 36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM;
> * 1 Unit Level Trainer;
> 
> 
> Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability.
> 
> The principal contractors will be:
> 
> * Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, TX;
> * Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control, Dallas, TX;
> * BAE Advanced Systems Greenlawn, NY;
> * Boeing Corporation Seattle, WA;
> * Boeing Integrated Defense Systems: St Louis, MO; Long Beach, CA; San Diego, CA;
> * Raytheon Company: Lexington, MA; Goleta, CA;
> * Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, AZ;
> * Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX;
> * Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD;
> * United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT; or
> * General Electric Aircraft Engines in Cincinnati, OH. There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support and program management of the aircraft.
> 
> 
> Item 2: Weapons for F-16C/D Block 50/52 Aircraft - $650 Million
> 
> # The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);
> # 12 AMRAAM training missiles
> # these have seeker warheads, but lack engines;
> # 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X;
> # 240 LAU-129/A Launchers
> # these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles;
> # 500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits;
> # 1600 Enhanced-GBU-12/24 GBUs;
> # 800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs;
> # 700 BLU-109 2000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse; and,
> # Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares, and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications, and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability will also be provided.
> 
> The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $650 million.
> 
> The principal contractors will be:
> 
> * BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY;
> * Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX;
> * Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX;
> * Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX; and,
> * Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD. There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft.
> 
> 
> Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits - $1.3 billion
> 
> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:
> 
> * APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar;
> * Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
> * AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
> * AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
> * Have Quick I/II Radios;
> * Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT);
> * SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
> * Reconnaissance pod capability;
> * Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (for training);
> 
> 
> MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits;
> 
> * 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
> * 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
> * 1 Unit Level Trainer;
> * 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.
> 
> 
> Also included are radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support.
> 
> The estimated cost is $1.3 billion.
> 
> According to the DSCA, Pakistan intends to purchase the MLU Program equipment "to enhance survivability, communications connectivity, and extend the useful life of its F-16A/B fighter aircraft. The modifications and upgrades in this proposed sale will permit Pakistan's F-16A/B squadron to operate safely and enhance Pakistan's conventional deterrent capability. Pakistan's air fleet can readily use these updates to enhance and extend the life of its aircraft."
> 
> The principal contractors will be:
> 
> * BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY;
> * Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX;
> * Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX;
> * Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX; and,
> * Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD.
> 
> 
> 
> Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR - $151 Million
> 
> The third contract involves Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million.
> 
> More specifically, the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of:
> 
> * 14 F100-PW-220E engines;
> * 14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits;
> * De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft;
> * Support equipment;
> * Software development/integration;
> * Modification kits;
> * Spares, and repair parts;
> * Flight test instrumentation;
> * Publications and technical documentation;
> * Personnel training and training equipment;
> * U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program.
> 
> 
> The principal contractors will be:
> 
> * Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX; and,
> * United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT.
> 
> 
> 
> Potential Controversies
> 
> The DSCA has said that "Release of this system would not significantly reduce India's quantitative or qualitative military advantage". India disagrees and military experts in Delhi will likely note that the same equipment (GPS, targeting pods, bunker-busters) that could potentially find uses against al-Qaeda terrorists in Pakistan's "lawless frontier" could also be used in precision strikes on India's military facilities in the event of war.
> 
> The DSCA counters that release of the F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft to Pakistan "will neither affect the regional balance of power nor introduce a new technology as this level of capability or higher already exists in other countries in the region". India does operate more advanced SU-30MKI aircraft with R-77 "AMRAAMski" missiles, advanced avionics, et. al.; these are superior in range, armament, and maneuverability to Pakistan's F-16s and will remain so. Meanwhile, India's $7-10 billion MRCA competition is certain to introduce 125-200 aircraft that are certain to be more advanced than the F-16 Block 50/52.
> 
> The U.S. DSCA adds in its submission to Congress that "The modification of the engines and Falcon UP/STAR structural updates will provide capable F-16s that can be used for close air support in ongoing operations contributing to the GWOT." The DSCA also cites the June 2004 designation of Pakistan as a Major Non-North Atlantic Treaty Organization Ally in its submission. The British commander of NATO's ISAF force in Southern Afghanistan sees Pakistan's role in a rather different light, however; he recently noted that al-Qaeda in Afghanistan is still run out of Pakistan (specifically Quetta), with Pakistani knowledge and even support from Islamist elements in its security apparatus. Ah, the dynamics of counter-insurgency in tribal societies. Pakistan angrily denies this, of course.
> 
> India's objections to this sale have been muted thus far, and phrased carefully to emphasize their effect on India-Pakistan ties rather than India-U.S. ties. Meanwhile, President Bush's personal diplomacy approach has fostered a strong relationship with Gen. Musharraf that is inclined to view such requests favourably as part of the U.S.A.'s 3-corner balancing act in the region. Barring unusual circumstances, therefore, it's reasonable to expect this sale to go through with little more than a concerned speech or two in Congress.
> 
> Courtesy of Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA)
> 
> *http://www.f-16.net/news_article1878.html*


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## IceCold

So DRFM is still missing. The issue was much of controversy to begin with and it was done to please India if i am not wrong. Some senior member back then suggested that much of the things that are not mentioned will be included but behind closed doors.
Anyways considering the possibility of not getting it how much in reality will it effect the capabilities of an F-16s without DRFM specially when we talk about offensive capabilities? Are F-16s really handicapped when it will come down to India Pak scenario.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

not with the right pilots


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## Quwa

Read up on the uses of DRFM...PakDef's H Khan addressed this issue.


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## MZUBAIR

From Todays NewsPAPER (Express)







Good thing in this newz.
4 F-16 Block 52 coming June on 20th.
8 Pilots completed their trainings.
We will get total of 18 F-16 this year.
2 Block 52 Sqd's will rise up this year in Jacobabad, Shahbaz Airbase, Sindh.

Suspicious news.
Dozens of Americans stay on Shahbaz Airbase. I hope they would only be there for trainings. Not a new exam for Pakistan.

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## IceCold

Mark Sien said:


> Read up on the uses of DRFM...PakDef's H Khan addressed this issue.



Mark can you please specify a link to this. My net is damn slow these days, it will take ages for me to search for the required post.
This is my understanding of the DRFM:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_radio_frequency_memory

Thanks in advance


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## zagahaga

india is useing irealie jammer arnt f 16 blinded by them.... actuailly it is said they jam all teen series fighters . please elaborate


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## Janshair

I want to add in here that F-16 is one best jet ever made.. And Pakistani pilots were the 1st foreign pilots who took training in a very short period and brought f-16 jets to Pakistan in very short period as compared to others..


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## farhan_9909

36 f-16 for 3 Billions..

much expensive

measn 83 million per aircraft


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Farhan i think it was 5. somthin billion.


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## MZUBAIR

zagahaga said:


> india is useing irealie jammer arnt f 16 blinded by them.... actuailly it is said they jam all teen series fighters . please elaborate



source about that jammer capability !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Quwa

IceCold said:


> Mark can you please specify a link to this. My net is damn slow these days, it will take ages for me to search for the required post.
> This is my understanding of the DRFM:
> 
> Digital radio frequency memory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Thanks in advance


I'll find the proper document, but someone posted excerpts from it here:

PAF Falcons Forums &bull; View topic - Pakistan Air Force Modernization Program Updates



> AEW&C capability provides the user with an airborne long-range radar which allows the user to, detect incoming enemy formations deep within enemy territory; as well as coordinate large-scale missions involving multiple forces (Army, Air Force, Navy) - and in peace time, coordinate search and rescue operations. According to the Air Chief of the Pakistan Air Force - Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed - all of the PAF's fighter aircraft will be datalinked with the Erieye system. Currently the F-16C/D Block 52+ and F-16A/B Block 15MLU-3 will utilize the American Link-16 datalink system with the Erieye; datalink would allow the F-16s to use the Erieye's radar without having to use their own (and exposing their radar signitures to the enemy). This would give the F-16's greater radar range as well as the ability to adapt to mission requirements or ECM/EW events without the use of a Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM).

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## thunder rules

good that the time has arrived for our new block 52 to come and join our great airforce.. 20 june is not to far away . now after these 18 f 16's will pakistan is going for further more 14 f16's procurements or its just a rumor ? any confrmed newS?


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## farhan_9909

this is a confirmed news..
pak will get 14 more after then 18 in june

U.S. to provide 14 F-16 jet planes to Pakistan


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## Hasnain2009

farhan_9909 said:


> 36 f-16 for 3 Billions..
> 
> much expensive
> 
> means 83 million per aircraft



Yeah, nearly double as compared to SU-30MKI


----------



## Pak123

farhan_9909 said:


> this is a confirmed news..
> pak will get 14 more after then 18 in june
> 
> U.S. to provide 14 F-16 jet planes to Pakistan


are these 14 besides those 18 which will be completed by this year ??
I mean in total 32 planes this year ?


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## Stealth

Hasnain2009 said:


> Yeah, nearly double as compared to SU-30MKI




Quality dear Quality! 3 words for American weapons "Quality, Shape, reliability".

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## hal-fgfa

Hasnain2009 said:


> Yeah, nearly double as compared to SU-30MKI



because of laser no. its cost double 

u can find out in net that usa offer f16IN to india in 50 million each cost


----------



## hal-fgfa

Stealth said:


> Quality dear Quality! 3 words for American weapons "Quality, Shape, reliability".



so u want to say f16 IN IS less in quality with compare to f16 blk 52

because usa offer f16 IN to india in 50 million


----------



## Stealth

hal-fgfa said:


> so u want to say f16 IN IS less in quality with compare to f16 blk 52
> 
> because usa offer f16 IN to india in 50 million



LOL @ ur thinking skillls!

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## hal-fgfa

Stealth said:


> LOL @ ur thinking skillls!



i think u dont have answer of my last post ...because u say about Quality ............. and now start trolling ...well its ok i can understand


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## Stealth

hal-fgfa said:


> i think u dont have answer of my last post ...because u say about Quality ............. and now start trolling ...well its ok i can understand



Idiot look at this (before read my reply read what above said)



Hasnain2009 said:


> *Yeah, nearly double as compared to SU-30MKI*
> 
> Here is my reply:
> 
> Quality dear Quality! 3 words for American weapons "Quality, Shape, reliability".



Where i compare or mention ur F16 IN or compare with Blk 52 ???? idiot!

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## hataf

hal-fgfa said:


> so u want to say f16 IN IS less in quality with compare to f16 blk 52
> 
> because usa offer f16 IN to india in 50 million



does this includes every thing spares and training etc


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## thunder rules

farhan_9909 said:


> this is a confirmed news..
> pak will get 14 more after then 18 in june
> 
> U.S. to provide 14 F-16 jet planes to Pakistan



thats a pleasant news are they same as block 52c/d or old blocks


----------



## fatman17

*Lockheed Martin secures $325m Pakistan MLU kits deal *

24-May-2010 JDIN 

The US Air Force has awarded a USD325 million contract to Lockheed Martin to provide 53 mid-life upgrade (MLU) kits for the Pakistan Air Force......

Modernisation 

In May 2010, the US Air Force awarded a USD325 million contract to Lockheed Martin to provide 53 mid-life upgrade (MLU) kits for PAF F-16 fighter aircraft. Under the FMS transaction, 45 MLU kits will be for the PAF's F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft with the remainder for its F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft. At the time of the announcement, USD121 million had already been obligated.

The deal is one of several FMS contracts that Pakistan officials have recently urged to be accelerated by Washington. Meetings between the defence officials of the two sides earlier in May focused on "more rapid delivery" of on-order equipment and services, as well as identifying additional requirements to be funded by Washington's Foreign Military Financing programme, under which Pakistan receives around USD300 million a year.

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## farhan_9909

Pak123 said:


> are these 14 besides those 18 which will be completed by this year ??
> I mean in total 32 planes this year ?



yess..total 32.bt may be 4 more and total 36.

and these are new nt old..the block 50/52

also i heard that 10 more are reqeusted


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## fatman17

farhan_9909 said:


> yess..total 32.bt may be 4 more and total 36.
> 
> and these are new nt old..the block 50/52
> 
> also i heard that 10 more are reqeusted



farhan sb, talk is cheap - pls provide evidence to support your claims.

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## nangyale

farhan_9909 said:


> yess..total 32.bt may be 4 more and total 36.
> 
> and these are new nt old..the block 50/52
> 
> also i heard that 10 more are reqeusted



There is no news about the 10 more or the 4 that you quoted. Although you are correct about the 18+14 new block 52s.


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## fatman17

2 Jun 2002 
Pakistani F-16 shot down 1 Indian Searcher II UAV.


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## Areesh

fatman17 said:


> 2 Jun 2002
> Pakistani F-16 shot down 1 Indian Searcher II UAV.



I think you are talking about this one.


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## fatman17

*Latest additions to 1,000 hrs Viper Club*

Here are the latest additions: 

Sqn.Ldr. Aftab "Viper-Phantom" Zia (Updated: 29 May 2010) 
11 sqn 

Wg.Cmd. Zulfiqar "Sidewinder" Ayub (Updated: 29 May 2010) 
9 sqn | 9 sqn

Wg.Cmd. Bilal Hassan (Updated: 29 May 2010) 
9 sqn

Sqn.Ldr. Moin "Tornado" Rana (Updated: 29 May 2010) 

Sqn.Ldr. Asim "Mav-Slammer" Raja (Updated: 29 May 2010) 
9 sqn

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## blain2

Pakistani blk 52 F-16s will have Goodrich DB-110 recce pods as per AFM. These are the most advanced recce pods on combat aircraft in service with NATO currently.

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## pshamim

Not just 18, Pakistan is now acquiring all 36 F-16s. This report in Defence Industry Daily now confirms what I have heard lately.



> May 23rd, 2010
> On June 28/06, the US DSCA notified Congress via a series of releases of its intention to provide Pakistan with a $5.1 billion Foreign Military Sales package to upgrade the F-16s that serve as the PAF&#8217;s top of the line fighters. Some of these items had been put on hold following the October 2005 earthquake in Pakistan & Kashmir, but the request for 36 new F-16 Block 50/52s is now going ahead, along with new weapons, engine modifications, and upgrade kits for Pakistan&#8217;s older F-16 A/Bs.



Regarding the older F-16s, they are not just getting the standard MLU but the CCIP upgrade which will bring them up to Block-50/52+ standard.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/?s=pakistan

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## was

pshamim said:


> Not just 18, Pakistan is now acquiring all 36 F-16s. This report in Defence Industry Daily now confirms what I have heard lately.
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding the older F-16s, they are not just getting the standard MLU but the CCIP upgrade which will bring them up to Block-50/52+ standard.
> 
> http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/?s=pakistan




thats great.and what about those +14 f 16s?
what would be the total number in the end


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## zagahaga

MZUBAIR said:


> source about that jammer capability !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



sir mig 21 bison has them su 30 has them all i want to know is that can we counter them by EW suits


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## M8R

pshamim said:


> Not just 18, Pakistan is now acquiring all 36 F-16s. This report in Defence Industry Daily now confirms what I have heard lately.
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding the older F-16s, they are not just getting the standard MLU but the CCIP upgrade which will bring them up to Block-50/52+ standard.
> 
> http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/?s=pakistan



Great News sir.If PAK-US relations remain fine until 2014 then PAF will be a very strong air force.


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## MastanKhan

zagahaga said:


> sir mig 21 bison has them su 30 has them all i want to know is that can we counter them by EW suits



Hi,

That is indeed the most important question of all---can our jammers match and compete and outdo the israeli and russian jammers.


----------



## Kompromat

pshamim said:


> Not just 18, Pakistan is now acquiring all 36 F-16s. This report in Defence Industry Daily now confirms what I have heard lately.
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding the older F-16s, they are not just getting the standard MLU but the CCIP upgrade which will bring them up to Block-50/52+ standard.
> 
> http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/?s=pakistan




Sounds like a good news.

Can you please tell that what would be the total number of vipers in our inventory inc B-52+ and MLU M3 upgraded vipers ?


----------



## mean_bird

pshamim said:


> Not just 18, Pakistan is now acquiring all 36 F-16s. This report in Defence Industry Daily now confirms what I have heard lately.
> 
> Regarding the older F-16s, they are not just getting the standard MLU but the CCIP upgrade which will bring them up to Block-50/52+ standard.
> 
> http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/?s=pakistan




Shamim sahib,

are we buying new 18 F-16s blk 52 (that were on option when we ordered the first 18) or is it going to be EDA upgraded to blk 52 standard?

Seeing that we had problems financing the first batch of JF-17s, our FC-20 order is on hold, I wonder where we got the money to purchase 18 new F-16s AND if that would be a wise decision. 


Regarding the CCIP standard and bringing older F-16s to blk 52 standard, all avionics will be brought to blk 52 standard but these key differences will remain between newer blk 52 and MLUed F-16s:
- no improvements in mission range 
- no improvements in loiter time
- no engine improvements
- and no improvements to payload capacity. 

Other than that, they will basically be equivalent to blk 52 standard.


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## Kompromat

mean_bird said:


> Shamim sahib,
> 
> are we buying new 18 F-16s blk 52 (that were on option when we ordered the first 18) or is it going to be EDA upgraded to blk 52 standard?
> 
> Seeing that we had problems financing the first batch of JF-17s, our FC-20 order is on hold, I wonder where we got the money to purchase 18 new F-16s AND if that would be a wise decision.
> 
> 
> Regarding the CCIP standard and bringing older F-16s to blk 52 standard, all avionics will be brought to blk 52 standard but these key differences will remain between newer blk 52 and MLUed F-16s:
> - no improvements in mission range
> - no improvements in loiter time
> - no engine improvements
> - and no improvements to payload capacity.
> 
> Other than that, they will basically be equivalent to blk 52 standard.



MLU Upgraded vipers wont be able to carry CFT's either

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## SQ8

mean_bird said:


> Shamim sahib,
> 
> are we buying new 18 F-16s blk 52 (that were on option when we ordered the first 18) or is it going to be EDA upgraded to blk 52 standard?
> 
> Seeing that we had problems financing the first batch of JF-17s, our FC-20 order is on hold, I wonder where we got the money to purchase 18 new F-16s AND if that would be a wise decision.
> 
> 
> Regarding the CCIP standard and bringing older F-16s to blk 52 standard, all avionics will be brought to blk 52 standard but these key differences will remain between newer blk 52 and MLUed F-16s:
> - no improvements in mission range
> - no improvements in loiter time
> - no engine improvements
> - and no improvements to payload capacity.
> 
> Other than that, they will basically be equivalent to blk 52 standard.



The engines have already been upgraded to 220E standard.Which is the high end upgrade for all F-16's till block 30.


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## fatman17

Black Blood said:


> Sounds like a good news.
> 
> Can you please tell that what would be the total number of vipers in our inventory inc B-52+ and MLU M3 upgraded vipers ?



32 original
14 EDA stocks (or transferred from USAF - embargoed)
46 total
01 attrition
45 to go upgrade
18 blk 52 under delivery
18 blk 52 option taken
81 total

expect the number to go to at-least 100.

6 sqdns inc a OCU

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> 32 original
> 14 EDA stocks (or transferred from USAF - embargoed)
> 46 total
> 1 attrition
> 45 to go upgrade
> 18 blk 52 under delivery
> 18 blk 52 option taken
> 81 total
> 
> expect the number to go to at-least 100.
> 
> 6 sqdns inc a OCU


Fatman
According to Hkhan of pakdef.info the embargoed F16s will also be released in the fall of this yr. it is on grounds of the fact that USN is by law required to keep aircrafts that can be serviced by the inventory of parts that it holds.As these are BL15OCUs they no longer hold parts for them and therefore have to release them. As discussed with you earlier, I had heard that 14 new Bl52s were being acquired but it seems that PAF will take up all the available options of 18. Good news as long as we maintain a hefty load of spares on board!!
Araz

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## TOPGUN

Awsome news.. about the new blk 52's and now that we will go for the 18 more option and or older f-16's will go through mlu and hopefully usn will clear our older aircraft . I heard from a good friend of my dad who is a retd top PAF offical that PAF always wanted to maintain atleast a 100 vipers.

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## air marshal

*THE FIRST AND THE FURIOUS*
June 7, 2002

Squadron Leader Zulfiqar and Squadron Leader Afzal (GIBS) of No. 9 MR Sqn destroy an intruding UAV (Searcher-II) of IAF on the night of 7th June, 2002, during Ops Sentinel. This was the first kill of a UAV by any fighter aircraft in the world.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

air marshal said:


> *THE FIRST AND THE FURIOUS*
> June 7, 2002
> 
> Squadron Leader Zulfiqar and Squadron Leader Afzal (GIBS) of No. 9 MR Sqn destroy an intruding UAV (Searcher-II) of IAF on the night of 7th June, 2002, during Ops Sentinel. This was the first kill of a UAV by any fighter aircraft in the world.






> _Indian external affairs officials admitted losing contact with a UAV in that region, but described it as a routine matter. In a statement issued to the Indian Parliament on 18 July 2002 then Indian Raksha Mantri (Defence Minister) George Fernandes acknowledged the UAV being "shot down by a Pakistan Air Force aircraft"_




_Portion of the UAV tail section is now on display outside PAF 9 Sqn home. The plaque credits - Sqn Ldr Zulfiqar Ayub and Sqn Ldr Afzal Aman for the kill, indicating that the fighter was a F-16B.

PAF was then operating in an alerted state - Operation Sentinel. Note that IAF does not paint any roundels or national markings on UAV. _



_Clearly visible here on the control surfaces of the aircraft is the serial number: T-2004._




_A PAF Officer displays the wreckage to two curious pilots from the Chakala based No. 6 Squadron._



_Remains of the AIM-9L seeker that is suspected to have downd the UAV.
_







_Badging recovered from the wreck clearly mentions the aircraft's origins: "Israel Aircraft Industries Ltd. Electronics Division Tamam". 
_

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## BATMAN

air marshal said:


> *THE FIRST AND THE FURIOUS*
> June 7, 2002
> 
> Squadron Leader Zulfiqar and Squadron Leader Afzal (GIBS) of No. 9 MR Sqn destroy an intruding UAV (Searcher-II) of IAF on the night of 7th June, 2002, during Ops Sentinel. This was the first kill of a UAV by any fighter aircraft in the world.



Shouldn't it be FAST and FURIOUS? or is there a joke hidden in the twist.
In any case it is interesting to hear that shooting down of Indian flying objects by PAF is routine matter for Indian MoD

Irony of record... Israeli UAV flying in Pak airspace shoot down by Pakistan.
Not many in the world know about it.


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## M8R

Shooting down a UAV is not an easy job.You have to slow down jet as the UAV flies extremely slow at normal speed the jet would fly past UAV before it even gets a lock on UAV.The jet has to come to near stall speeds to get lock on UAV.


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## Luftwaffe

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;..You forgot Air Brakes-Inflight breaks.


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## imranyounasbutt

hi

can any body update me ..how much time require to build the one f-16.

secondly when turkey will deliver mlu kits. 

thanks


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## BATMAN

Turkey will deliver us upgrades F-16 and MLU kits will be delivered to TAI directly by USA.


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## BATMAN

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;914865 said:


> Shooting down a UAV is not an easy job.You have to slow down jet as the UAV flies extremely slow at normal speed the jet would fly past UAV before it even gets a lock on UAV.The jet has to come to near stall speeds to get lock on UAV.



Ah.... now i know.....the twist was deliberate.


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## Koga Ryu

MiG-29 Fulcrum Versus F-16 Viper 

The baseline MiG-29 for this comparison will be the MiG-29A (except for 200 kg more fuel and an internal jammer, the MiG-29C was not an improvement over the MiG-29A), as this was the most widely deployed version of the aircraft. The baseline F-16 will be the F-16C Block 40. Although there is a more advanced and powerful version of the F-16C, the Block 40 was produced and fielded during the height of Fulcrum production. 

A combat loaded MiG-29A tips the scales at approximately 38, 500 pounds. This figure includes a full load of internal fuel, two AA-10A Alamo missiles, four AA-11 Archer missiles, 150 rounds of 30mm ammunition and a full centerline 1,500 liter external fuel tank. With 18,600 pounds of thrust per engine, this gives the Fulcrum a takeoff thrust-to-weight ratio of 0.97:1. A similarly loaded air-to-air configured F-16 Block 40 would carry four AIM-120 AMRAAM active radar-guided missiles, two AIM-9M IR-guided missiles, 510 rounds of 20mm ammunition and a 300 gallon external centerline fuel tank. In this configuration, the F-16 weighs 31,640 pounds. With 29,000 pounds of thrust, the F-16 has a takeoff thrust-to-weight ratio of 0.92:1. The reader should be cautioned that these thrust-to-weight ratios are based on uninstalled thrust. Once an engine is installed in the aircraft, it produces less thrust than it does on a test stand due to the air intake allowing in less air than the engine has available on the test stand. 
The actual installed thrust-to-weight ratios vary based on the source. On average, they are in the 1:1 regime or better for both aircraft. The centerline fuel tanks can be jettisoned and probably would be if the situation dictated with an associated decrease in drag and weight and an increase in performance. 

Speed 

Both aircraft display good performance throughout their flight regimes in the comparison configuration. The MiG-29 enjoys a speed advantage at high altitude with a flight manual limit of Mach 2.3. The F-16s high altitude limit is 
Mach 2.05 but this is more of a limit of inlet design. The MiG-29 has variable geometry inlets to control the shock wave that forms in the inlet and prevent supersonic flow from reaching the engine. The F-16 employs a simple fixed-geometry inlet with a sharp upper lip that extends out beyond the lower portion of the inlet. A shock wave forms on this lip and prevents the flow in the intake from going supersonic. The objective is to keep the air going into the engine subsonic unlike a certain subject matter expert on this website who thinks that the air should be accelerated to even higher speeds than the aircraft is traveling. Supersonic air in the compressor section? Thats bad. 

Both aircraft have the same indicated airspeed limit at lower altitudes of 
810 knots. This would require the centerline tanks to be jettisoned. The placard limits for the tanks are 600 knots or Mach 1.6 (Mach 1.5 for the MiG-29) whichever less is. It was the researchers experience that the MiG-29 would probably not reach this limit unless a dive was initiated. The F-16 Block 40 will easily reach 800 knots on the deck. In fact, power must be reduced to avoid exceeding placard limits. The limit is not thrust, as the F-16 has been test flown on the plus side of 900 knots. The limit for the F-16 is the canopy. Heating due to air friction at such speeds will cause the polycarbonate canopy to get soft and ultimately fail. 

Turning Capability 

The MiG-29 and F-16 are both considered 9 G aircraft. Until the centerline tank is empty, the Fulcrum is limited to four Gs and the Viper to seven Gs. The 
MiG-29 is also limited to seven Gs above Mach 0.85 while the F-16, once the centerline tank is empty (or jettisoned) can go to nine Gs regardless of airspeed or Mach number. The MiG-29s seven G limit is due to loads on the vertical stabilizers. MAPO has advertised that the Fulcrum could be stressed to 12 Gs and still not hurt the airframe. This statement is probably wishful and boastful. The German Luftwaffe, which flew its MiG-29s probably more aggressively than any other operator, experienced cracks in the structure at the base of the vertical tails. The F-16 can actually exceed nine Gs without overstressing the airframe. Depending on configuration, momentary overshoots to as much as 10.3 Gs will not cause any concern with aircraft maintainers. 

Handling 

Of the four fighters I have flown, the MiG-29 has by far the worst handling qualities. The hydro-mechanical flight control system uses an artificial feel system of springs and pulleys to simulate control force changes with varying airspeeds and altitudes. There is a stability augmentation system that makes the aircraft easier to fly but also makes the aircraft more sluggish to flight control inputs. It is my opinion that the jet is more responsive with the augmentation system disengaged. Unfortunately, this was allowed for demonstration purposes only as this also disengages the angle-of-attack (AoA) limiter. Stick forces are relatively light but the stick requires a lot of movement to get the desired response. This only adds to sluggish feeling of the aircraft. The entire time you are flying, the stick will move randomly about one-half inch on its own with a corresponding movement of the flight control surface. Flying the Fulcrum requires constant attention. If the pilot takes his hand off the throttles, the throttles probably won't stay in the position in which they were left. They'll probably slide back into the 'idle' position. 

The Fulcrum is relatively easy to fly during most phases of flight such as takeoff, climb, cruise and landing. However, due to flight control limitations, the pilot must work hard to get the jet to respond the way he wants. This is especially evident in aggressive maneuvering, flying formation or during attempts to employ the gun. Aerial gunnery requires very precise handling in order to be successful. The MiG-29s handling qualities in no way limit the ability of the pilot to perform his mission, but they do dramatically increase his workload. The F-16s quadruple-redundant digital flight control system, on the other hand, is extremely responsive, precise and smooth throughout the flight regime. 

There is no auto-trim system in the MiG-29 as in the F-16. Trimming the aircraft is practically an unattainable state of grace in the Fulcrum. The trim of the aircraft is very sensitive to changes in airspeed and power and requires constant attention. Changes to aircraft configuration such as raising and lowering the landing gear and flaps cause significant changes in pitch trim that the pilot must be prepared for. As a result, the MiG-29 requires constant attention to fly. The F-16 auto-trims to one G or for whatever G the pilot has manually trimmed the aircraft for. 

The MiG-29 flight control system also has an AoA limiter that limits the allowable AoA to 26°. As the aircraft reaches the limit, pistons at the base of the stick push the stick forward and reduce the AoA about 5°. The pilot has to fight the flight controls to hold the jet at 26°. The limiter can be overridden, however, with about 17 kg more back pressure on the stick. While not entirely unsafe and at times tactically useful, care must be taken not to attempt to roll the aircraft with ailerons when above 26° AoA. In this case it is best to control roll with the rudders due to adverse yaw caused by the ailerons at high AoA. The F-16 is electronically limited to 26° AoA. While the pilot cannot manually override this limit it is possible to overshoot under certain conditions and risk departure from controlled flight. This is a disadvantage to the F-16 but is a safety margin due its lack of longitudinal stability. Both aircraft have a lift limit of approximately 
35° AoA. 

Combat Scenario 

The ultimate comparison of two fighter aircraft comes down to a combat duel between them. After the Berlin Wall came down the reunified Germany inherited 24 MiG-29s from the Nationale Volksarmee of East Germany. The lessons of capitalism were not lost on MAPO-MiG (the Fulcrums manufacturer) who saw this as an opportunity to compare the Fulcrum directly with western types during NATO training exercises. MAPO was quick to boast how the MiG-29 had bested F-15s and F-16s in mock aerial combat. They claimed a combination of the MiGs superior sensors, weapons and low radar cross section allowed the Fulcrum to beat western aircraft. However, much of the early exploitation was done more to ascertain the MiG-29s capabilities versus attempting to determine what the outcome of actual combat would be. The western press was also quick to pick up on the theme. In 1991, Benjamin Lambeth cited an article in Janes Defence Weekly which stated that the German MiG-29s had beaten F-16s with simulated BVR range shots of more than 60 km. How was this possible when the MiG-29 cannot launch an AA-10A Alamo from outside about 25 km? Was this a case of the fish getting bigger with every telling of the story? The actual BVR capability of the MiG-29 was my biggest disappointment. Was it further exposure to the German Fulcrums in realistic training that showed the jet for what it truly is? It seems that MAPOs free advertising backfired in the end as further orders were limited to the 18 airplanes sold to Malaysia. 

If F-16Cs and MiG-29s face off in aerial combat, both would detect each other on the radar at comparable range. Armed with the AIM-120 AMRAAM, the F-16s would have the first shot opportunity at more than twice the range as the Fulcrums. A single F-16 would be able to discriminately target individual and multiple Fulcrums. The MiG-29s radar will not allow this. If there is more than one F-16 in a formation, a Fulcrum pilot would not know exactly which F-16 the radar had locked and he can engage only one F-16 at a time. A Viper pilot can launch AMRAAMS against multiple MiG-29s on the first pass and support his missiles via data link until the missiles go active. He can break the radar lock and leave or continue to the visual arena and employ short range infrared guided missiles or the gun. The Fulcrum pilot must wait until about 13 nautical miles (24 kilometers) before he can shoot his BVR missile. The Alamo is a semi-active missile that must be supported by the launching aircraft until impact. This brings the Fulcrum pilot closer to the AMRAAM. In fact, just as the the Fulcrum pilot gets in range to fire an Alamo, the AMRAAM is seconds away from impacting his aircraft. The advantage goes to the F-16. 

What if both pilots are committed to engage visually? The F-16 should have the initial advantage as he knows the Fulcrums exact altitude and has the target designator box in the head-up display (HUD) to aid in visual acquisition. The Fulcrums engines smoke heavily and are a good aid to gaining sight of the adversary. Another advantage is the F-16s large bubble canopy with 360° field-of-view. The Fulcrum pilots HUD doesnt help much in gaining sight of the F-16. The F-16 is small and has a smokeless engine. The MiG-29 pilot sets low in his cockpit and visibility between the 4 oclock and 7 oclock positions is virtually nonexistent. 

Charts that compare actual maneuvering performance of the two aircraft are classified. It was the researchers experience that the aircraft have comparable initial turning performance. However, the MiG-29 suffers from a higher energy bleed rate than the F-16. This is due to high induced drag on the airframe during high-G maneuvering. F-16 pilots that have flown against the Fulcrum have made similar observations that the F-16 can sustain a high-G turn longer. This results in a turn rate advantage that translates into a positional advantage for the F-16. 

The F-16 is also much easier to fly and is more responsive at slow speed. 
The Fulcrums maximum roll rate is 160° per second. At slow speed this decreases to around 20° per second. Coupled with the large amount of stick movement required, the Fulcrum is extremely sluggish at slow speed. Maneuvering to defeat a close-range gun shot is extremely difficult if the airplane wont move. For comparison, the F-16s slow speed roll rate is a little more than 80° per second. 

A lot has been written and theorized about the so-called Cobra Maneuver that impresses people at airshows. MAPO claimed that no western fighter dare do this same maneuver in public. They also claimed that the Cobra could be used to break the radar lock of an enemy fighter (due to the slow airspeed, there is no Doppler signal for the radar to track) or point the nose of the aircraft to employ weapons. Western fighter pilots were content to let the Russians brag and hope for the opportunity to see a MiG-29 give up all its airspeed. The fact that this maneuver is prohibited in the flight manual only validates the fact that this maneuver was a stunt. Lambeth was the first American to get a flight in the Fulcrum. Even his pilot conceded that the Cobra required a specially prepared aircraft and was prohibited in operational MiG-29 units 

Another maneuver performed by the Fulcrum during its introduction to the West is the so-called Tail Slide. The nose of the jet is brought to 90° pitch and the airspeed is allowed to decay. Eventually, the Fulcrum begins to slide back, tail-first, until the nose drops and the jet begins to fly normally again. The Soviets boasted this maneuver demonstrated how robust the engines were as this would cause western engines to flameout. The first maneuver demonstrated to me during my F-15 training was the Tail Slide. The engines did not flameout. 

The MiG-29 is not without strong points. The pilot can override the angle of attack limiter. This is especially useful in vertical maneuvering or in last ditch attempts to bring weapons to bear or defeat enemy shots. The HMS and AA-11 Archer make the Fulcrum a deadly foe in the visual arena. The AA-11 is far superior to the American AIM-9M. By merely turning his head, the MiG pilot can bring an Archer to bear. The one limitation, however, is that the Fulcrum pilot has no cue as to where the Archer seeker head is actually looking. This makes it impossible to determine if the missile is tracking the target, a flare, or some other hot spot in the background. (Note: the AIM-9X which is already fielded on the F-15C, and to be fielded on the F-16 in 2007, is far superior to the AA-11) 

Fulcrum pilots have enjoyed their most success with the HMS/Archer combination in one versus one training missions. In this sterile environment, where both aircraft start within visual range of each other, the MiG-29 has a great advantage. Not because it is more maneuverable than the F-16. That is most certainly not the case regardless of the claims of the Fulcrums manufacturer and numerous other misinformed propaganda sources. The weapon/sensor integration with the HMS and Archer makes close-in missile employment extremely easy for the Fulcrums pilot. My only one versus one fight against a MiG-29 (in something other than another MiG-29) was flown in an F-16 Block 52. This was done against a German MiG-29 at Nellis AFB, Nevada. The F-16 outturned and out-powered the Fulcrum in every situation. 

The Fulcrums gun system is fairly accurate as long as the target does not attempt to defeat the shot. If the target maneuvers, the gunsight requires large corrections to get back to solution. Coupled with the jets imprecise handling, this makes close-in maneuvering difficult. This is very important when using the gun. Although the Fulcrum has a 30 mm cannon, the muzzle velocity is no more than the 20 mm rounds coming out of the F-16s gun. The MiGs effective gun range is actually less than that of the F-16 as the 20 mm rounds are more aerodynamic and maintain their velocity longer. 

If the fight lasts very long, the MiG pilot is at a decided disadvantage and must either kill his foe or find a timely opportunity to leave the fight without placing himself on the defensive. The Fulcrum A holds only 300 pounds more internal fuel than the F-16 and its two engines go through it quickly. There are no fuel flow gauges in the cockpit. Using the clock and the fuel gauge, in full afterburner the MiG-29 uses fuel 3.5 to 4 times faster than the Viper. My shortest MiG-29 sortie was 16 minutes from brake release to touchdown. 

It should not be forgotten that fights between fighters do not occur in a vacuum. One-versus-one comparisons are one thing, but start to include other fighters into the fray and situational awareness (SA) plays an even bigger role. The lack of SA-building tools for MiG-29 pilots will become an even bigger factor if they have more aircraft to keep track of. Poor radar and HUD displays, poor cockpit ergonomics and poor handling qualities added to the Fulcrum pilots workload and degraded his overall SA. It was my experience during one-versus-one scenarios emphasizing dogfighting skills, the results came down to pilot skill. 

In multi-ship scenarios, such as a typical four versus four training mission, the advantage clearly went to the side with the highest SA. Against F-15s and F-16s in multi-ship fights, the MiG-29s were always outclassed. It was nearly impossible to use the great potential of the HMS/Archer combination when all the Eagles and Vipers couldnt be accounted for and the Fulcrums were on the defensive. The MiG-29s design was a result of the Soviet view on tactical aviation and the level of technology available to their aircraft industry. The pilot was not meant to have a lot of SA. The center of fighter execution was the ground controller. The pilots job was to do as instructed and not to make independent decisions. Even the data link system in the MiG-29 was not meant to enhance the pilots SA. He was merely linked steering, altitude and heading cues to follow from the controller. If the MiG-29 pilot is cut off from his controller, his autonomous capabilities are extremely limited. Western fighter pilots are given the tools they need to make independent tactical decisions. The mission commander is a pilot on the scene. All other assets are there to assist and not to direct. If the F-16 pilot loses contact with support assets such as the E-3 Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft, he has all the tools to complete the mission autonomously. 

The combat record of the MiG-29 speaks for itself. American F-15s and F- 
16s (a Dutch F-16 shot down a MiG-29 during Operation Allied Force) have downed MiG-29s every time there has been encounters between the types. The only known MiG-29 victories occurred during Operation Desert Storm when an Iraqi MiG-29 shot down his own wingman on the first night of the war and a Cuban MiG-29 brought down 2 mighty Cessnas. Are there more victories for the Fulcrum? Not against F-15s or F-16s. 

Designed and built to counter the fourth generation American fighters, The MiG-29 Fulcrum was a concept that was technologically and doctrinally hindered from the beginning. Feared in the west prior to the demise of the Soviet Union, it was merely an incremental improvement to the earlier Soviet fighters it replaced. Its lack of a market when put in direct competition to western designs should attest to its shortcomings. The German pilots who flew the aircraft said that the MiG-29 looked good at an airshow but they wouldnt have wanted to take one to combat. Advanced versions such as the SMT and MiG-33? Certainly better but has anyone bought one? 

Lt. Col. Johann Köck, commander of the German MiG-29 squadron from 
September 1995 to September 1997, was outspoken in his evaluation of the Fulcrum. It has no range, its navigation system is unreliable and the radar breaks often and does not lend it self to autonomous operations, he said. He added that the best mission for NATO MiG-29s would be as a dedicated adversary aircraft for other NATO fighters and not as part of NATOs frontline fighter force.

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## F86 Saber

Koga Ryu said:


> MiG-29 Fulcrum Versus F-16 Viper
> 
> The baseline MiG-29 for this comparison will be the MiG-29A (except for 200 kg more fuel and an internal jammer, the MiG-29C was not an improvement over the MiG-29A), as this was the most widely deployed version of the aircraft. The baseline F-16 will be the F-16C Block 40. Although there is a more advanced and powerful version of the F-16C, the Block 40 was produced and fielded during the height of Fulcrum production.
> 
> A combat loaded MiG-29A tips the scales at approximately 38, 500 pounds. This figure includes a full load of internal fuel, two AA-10A Alamo missiles, four AA-11 Archer missiles, 150 rounds of 30mm ammunition and a full centerline 1,500 liter external fuel tank. With 18,600 pounds of thrust per engine, this gives the Fulcrum a takeoff thrust-to-weight ratio of 0.97:1. A similarly loaded air-to-air configured F-16 Block 40 would carry four AIM-120 AMRAAM active radar-guided missiles, two AIM-9M IR-guided missiles, 510 rounds of 20mm ammunition and a 300 gallon external centerline fuel tank. In this configuration, the F-16 weighs 31,640 pounds. With 29,000 pounds of thrust, the F-16 has a takeoff thrust-to-weight ratio of 0.92:1. The reader should be cautioned that these thrust-to-weight ratios are based on uninstalled thrust. Once an engine is installed in the aircraft, it produces less thrust than it does on a test stand due to the air intake allowing in less air than the engine has available on the test stand.
> The actual installed thrust-to-weight ratios vary based on the source. On average, they are in the 1:1 regime or better for both aircraft. The centerline fuel tanks can be jettisoned and probably would be if the situation dictated with an associated decrease in drag and weight and an increase in performance.
> 
> Speed
> 
> Both aircraft display good performance throughout their flight regimes in the comparison configuration. The MiG-29 enjoys a speed advantage at high altitude with a flight manual limit of Mach 2.3. The F-16s high altitude limit is
> Mach 2.05 but this is more of a limit of inlet design. The MiG-29 has variable geometry inlets to control the shock wave that forms in the inlet and prevent supersonic flow from reaching the engine. The F-16 employs a simple fixed-geometry inlet with a sharp upper lip that extends out beyond the lower portion of the inlet. A shock wave forms on this lip and prevents the flow in the intake from going supersonic. The objective is to keep the air going into the engine subsonic unlike a certain subject matter expert on this website who thinks that the air should be accelerated to even higher speeds than the aircraft is traveling. Supersonic air in the compressor section? Thats bad.
> 
> Both aircraft have the same indicated airspeed limit at lower altitudes of
> 810 knots. This would require the centerline tanks to be jettisoned. The placard limits for the tanks are 600 knots or Mach 1.6 (Mach 1.5 for the MiG-29) whichever less is. It was the researchers experience that the MiG-29 would probably not reach this limit unless a dive was initiated. The F-16 Block 40 will easily reach 800 knots on the deck. In fact, power must be reduced to avoid exceeding placard limits. The limit is not thrust, as the F-16 has been test flown on the plus side of 900 knots. The limit for the F-16 is the canopy. Heating due to air friction at such speeds will cause the polycarbonate canopy to get soft and ultimately fail.
> 
> Turning Capability
> 
> The MiG-29 and F-16 are both considered 9 G aircraft. Until the centerline tank is empty, the Fulcrum is limited to four Gs and the Viper to seven Gs. The
> MiG-29 is also limited to seven Gs above Mach 0.85 while the F-16, once the centerline tank is empty (or jettisoned) can go to nine Gs regardless of airspeed or Mach number. The MiG-29s seven G limit is due to loads on the vertical stabilizers. MAPO has advertised that the Fulcrum could be stressed to 12 Gs and still not hurt the airframe. This statement is probably wishful and boastful. The German Luftwaffe, which flew its MiG-29s probably more aggressively than any other operator, experienced cracks in the structure at the base of the vertical tails. The F-16 can actually exceed nine Gs without overstressing the airframe. Depending on configuration, momentary overshoots to as much as 10.3 Gs will not cause any concern with aircraft maintainers.
> 
> Handling
> 
> Of the four fighters I have flown, the MiG-29 has by far the worst handling qualities. The hydro-mechanical flight control system uses an artificial feel system of springs and pulleys to simulate control force changes with varying airspeeds and altitudes. There is a stability augmentation system that makes the aircraft easier to fly but also makes the aircraft more sluggish to flight control inputs. It is my opinion that the jet is more responsive with the augmentation system disengaged. Unfortunately, this was allowed for demonstration purposes only as this also disengages the angle-of-attack (AoA) limiter. Stick forces are relatively light but the stick requires a lot of movement to get the desired response. This only adds to sluggish feeling of the aircraft. The entire time you are flying, the stick will move randomly about one-half inch on its own with a corresponding movement of the flight control surface. Flying the Fulcrum requires constant attention. If the pilot takes his hand off the throttles, the throttles probably won't stay in the position in which they were left. They'll probably slide back into the 'idle' position.
> 
> The Fulcrum is relatively easy to fly during most phases of flight such as takeoff, climb, cruise and landing. However, due to flight control limitations, the pilot must work hard to get the jet to respond the way he wants. This is especially evident in aggressive maneuvering, flying formation or during attempts to employ the gun. Aerial gunnery requires very precise handling in order to be successful. The MiG-29s handling qualities in no way limit the ability of the pilot to perform his mission, but they do dramatically increase his workload. The F-16s quadruple-redundant digital flight control system, on the other hand, is extremely responsive, precise and smooth throughout the flight regime.
> 
> There is no auto-trim system in the MiG-29 as in the F-16. Trimming the aircraft is practically an unattainable state of grace in the Fulcrum. The trim of the aircraft is very sensitive to changes in airspeed and power and requires constant attention. Changes to aircraft configuration such as raising and lowering the landing gear and flaps cause significant changes in pitch trim that the pilot must be prepared for. As a result, the MiG-29 requires constant attention to fly. The F-16 auto-trims to one G or for whatever G the pilot has manually trimmed the aircraft for.
> 
> The MiG-29 flight control system also has an AoA limiter that limits the allowable AoA to 26°. As the aircraft reaches the limit, pistons at the base of the stick push the stick forward and reduce the AoA about 5°. The pilot has to fight the flight controls to hold the jet at 26°. The limiter can be overridden, however, with about 17 kg more back pressure on the stick. While not entirely unsafe and at times tactically useful, care must be taken not to attempt to roll the aircraft with ailerons when above 26° AoA. In this case it is best to control roll with the rudders due to adverse yaw caused by the ailerons at high AoA. The F-16 is electronically limited to 26° AoA. While the pilot cannot manually override this limit it is possible to overshoot under certain conditions and risk departure from controlled flight. This is a disadvantage to the F-16 but is a safety margin due its lack of longitudinal stability. Both aircraft have a lift limit of approximately
> 35° AoA.
> 
> Combat Scenario
> 
> The ultimate comparison of two fighter aircraft comes down to a combat duel between them. After the Berlin Wall came down the reunified Germany inherited 24 MiG-29s from the Nationale Volksarmee of East Germany. The lessons of capitalism were not lost on MAPO-MiG (the Fulcrums manufacturer) who saw this as an opportunity to compare the Fulcrum directly with western types during NATO training exercises. MAPO was quick to boast how the MiG-29 had bested F-15s and F-16s in mock aerial combat. They claimed a combination of the MiGs superior sensors, weapons and low radar cross section allowed the Fulcrum to beat western aircraft. However, much of the early exploitation was done more to ascertain the MiG-29s capabilities versus attempting to determine what the outcome of actual combat would be. The western press was also quick to pick up on the theme. In 1991, Benjamin Lambeth cited an article in Janes Defence Weekly which stated that the German MiG-29s had beaten F-16s with simulated BVR range shots of more than 60 km. How was this possible when the MiG-29 cannot launch an AA-10A Alamo from outside about 25 km? Was this a case of the fish getting bigger with every telling of the story? The actual BVR capability of the MiG-29 was my biggest disappointment. Was it further exposure to the German Fulcrums in realistic training that showed the jet for what it truly is? It seems that MAPOs free advertising backfired in the end as further orders were limited to the 18 airplanes sold to Malaysia.
> 
> If F-16Cs and MiG-29s face off in aerial combat, both would detect each other on the radar at comparable range. Armed with the AIM-120 AMRAAM, the F-16s would have the first shot opportunity at more than twice the range as the Fulcrums. A single F-16 would be able to discriminately target individual and multiple Fulcrums. The MiG-29s radar will not allow this. If there is more than one F-16 in a formation, a Fulcrum pilot would not know exactly which F-16 the radar had locked and he can engage only one F-16 at a time. A Viper pilot can launch AMRAAMS against multiple MiG-29s on the first pass and support his missiles via data link until the missiles go active. He can break the radar lock and leave or continue to the visual arena and employ short range infrared guided missiles or the gun. The Fulcrum pilot must wait until about 13 nautical miles (24 kilometers) before he can shoot his BVR missile. The Alamo is a semi-active missile that must be supported by the launching aircraft until impact. This brings the Fulcrum pilot closer to the AMRAAM. In fact, just as the the Fulcrum pilot gets in range to fire an Alamo, the AMRAAM is seconds away from impacting his aircraft. The advantage goes to the F-16.
> 
> What if both pilots are committed to engage visually? The F-16 should have the initial advantage as he knows the Fulcrums exact altitude and has the target designator box in the head-up display (HUD) to aid in visual acquisition. The Fulcrums engines smoke heavily and are a good aid to gaining sight of the adversary. Another advantage is the F-16s large bubble canopy with 360° field-of-view. The Fulcrum pilots HUD doesnt help much in gaining sight of the F-16. The F-16 is small and has a smokeless engine. The MiG-29 pilot sets low in his cockpit and visibility between the 4 oclock and 7 oclock positions is virtually nonexistent.
> 
> Charts that compare actual maneuvering performance of the two aircraft are classified. It was the researchers experience that the aircraft have comparable initial turning performance. However, the MiG-29 suffers from a higher energy bleed rate than the F-16. This is due to high induced drag on the airframe during high-G maneuvering. F-16 pilots that have flown against the Fulcrum have made similar observations that the F-16 can sustain a high-G turn longer. This results in a turn rate advantage that translates into a positional advantage for the F-16.
> 
> The F-16 is also much easier to fly and is more responsive at slow speed.
> The Fulcrums maximum roll rate is 160° per second. At slow speed this decreases to around 20° per second. Coupled with the large amount of stick movement required, the Fulcrum is extremely sluggish at slow speed. Maneuvering to defeat a close-range gun shot is extremely difficult if the airplane wont move. For comparison, the F-16s slow speed roll rate is a little more than 80° per second.
> 
> A lot has been written and theorized about the so-called Cobra Maneuver that impresses people at airshows. MAPO claimed that no western fighter dare do this same maneuver in public. They also claimed that the Cobra could be used to break the radar lock of an enemy fighter (due to the slow airspeed, there is no Doppler signal for the radar to track) or point the nose of the aircraft to employ weapons. Western fighter pilots were content to let the Russians brag and hope for the opportunity to see a MiG-29 give up all its airspeed. The fact that this maneuver is prohibited in the flight manual only validates the fact that this maneuver was a stunt. Lambeth was the first American to get a flight in the Fulcrum. Even his pilot conceded that the Cobra required a specially prepared aircraft and was prohibited in operational MiG-29 units
> 
> Another maneuver performed by the Fulcrum during its introduction to the West is the so-called Tail Slide. The nose of the jet is brought to 90° pitch and the airspeed is allowed to decay. Eventually, the Fulcrum begins to slide back, tail-first, until the nose drops and the jet begins to fly normally again. The Soviets boasted this maneuver demonstrated how robust the engines were as this would cause western engines to flameout. The first maneuver demonstrated to me during my F-15 training was the Tail Slide. The engines did not flameout.
> 
> The MiG-29 is not without strong points. The pilot can override the angle of attack limiter. This is especially useful in vertical maneuvering or in last ditch attempts to bring weapons to bear or defeat enemy shots. The HMS and AA-11 Archer make the Fulcrum a deadly foe in the visual arena. The AA-11 is far superior to the American AIM-9M. By merely turning his head, the MiG pilot can bring an Archer to bear. The one limitation, however, is that the Fulcrum pilot has no cue as to where the Archer seeker head is actually looking. This makes it impossible to determine if the missile is tracking the target, a flare, or some other hot spot in the background. (Note: the AIM-9X which is already fielded on the F-15C, and to be fielded on the F-16 in 2007, is far superior to the AA-11)
> 
> Fulcrum pilots have enjoyed their most success with the HMS/Archer combination in one versus one training missions. In this sterile environment, where both aircraft start within visual range of each other, the MiG-29 has a great advantage. Not because it is more maneuverable than the F-16. That is most certainly not the case regardless of the claims of the Fulcrums manufacturer and numerous other misinformed propaganda sources. The weapon/sensor integration with the HMS and Archer makes close-in missile employment extremely easy for the Fulcrums pilot. My only one versus one fight against a MiG-29 (in something other than another MiG-29) was flown in an F-16 Block 52. This was done against a German MiG-29 at Nellis AFB, Nevada. The F-16 outturned and out-powered the Fulcrum in every situation.
> 
> The Fulcrums gun system is fairly accurate as long as the target does not attempt to defeat the shot. If the target maneuvers, the gunsight requires large corrections to get back to solution. Coupled with the jets imprecise handling, this makes close-in maneuvering difficult. This is very important when using the gun. Although the Fulcrum has a 30 mm cannon, the muzzle velocity is no more than the 20 mm rounds coming out of the F-16s gun. The MiGs effective gun range is actually less than that of the F-16 as the 20 mm rounds are more aerodynamic and maintain their velocity longer.
> 
> If the fight lasts very long, the MiG pilot is at a decided disadvantage and must either kill his foe or find a timely opportunity to leave the fight without placing himself on the defensive. The Fulcrum A holds only 300 pounds more internal fuel than the F-16 and its two engines go through it quickly. There are no fuel flow gauges in the cockpit. Using the clock and the fuel gauge, in full afterburner the MiG-29 uses fuel 3.5 to 4 times faster than the Viper. My shortest MiG-29 sortie was 16 minutes from brake release to touchdown.
> 
> It should not be forgotten that fights between fighters do not occur in a vacuum. One-versus-one comparisons are one thing, but start to include other fighters into the fray and situational awareness (SA) plays an even bigger role. The lack of SA-building tools for MiG-29 pilots will become an even bigger factor if they have more aircraft to keep track of. Poor radar and HUD displays, poor cockpit ergonomics and poor handling qualities added to the Fulcrum pilots workload and degraded his overall SA. It was my experience during one-versus-one scenarios emphasizing dogfighting skills, the results came down to pilot skill.
> 
> In multi-ship scenarios, such as a typical four versus four training mission, the advantage clearly went to the side with the highest SA. Against F-15s and F-16s in multi-ship fights, the MiG-29s were always outclassed. It was nearly impossible to use the great potential of the HMS/Archer combination when all the Eagles and Vipers couldnt be accounted for and the Fulcrums were on the defensive. The MiG-29s design was a result of the Soviet view on tactical aviation and the level of technology available to their aircraft industry. The pilot was not meant to have a lot of SA. The center of fighter execution was the ground controller. The pilots job was to do as instructed and not to make independent decisions. Even the data link system in the MiG-29 was not meant to enhance the pilots SA. He was merely linked steering, altitude and heading cues to follow from the controller. If the MiG-29 pilot is cut off from his controller, his autonomous capabilities are extremely limited. Western fighter pilots are given the tools they need to make independent tactical decisions. The mission commander is a pilot on the scene. All other assets are there to assist and not to direct. If the F-16 pilot loses contact with support assets such as the E-3 Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft, he has all the tools to complete the mission autonomously.
> 
> The combat record of the MiG-29 speaks for itself. American F-15s and F-
> 16s (a Dutch F-16 shot down a MiG-29 during Operation Allied Force) have downed MiG-29s every time there has been encounters between the types. The only known MiG-29 victories occurred during Operation Desert Storm when an Iraqi MiG-29 shot down his own wingman on the first night of the war and a Cuban MiG-29 brought down 2 mighty Cessnas. Are there more victories for the Fulcrum? Not against F-15s or F-16s.
> 
> Designed and built to counter the fourth generation American fighters, The MiG-29 Fulcrum was a concept that was technologically and doctrinally hindered from the beginning. Feared in the west prior to the demise of the Soviet Union, it was merely an incremental improvement to the earlier Soviet fighters it replaced. Its lack of a market when put in direct competition to western designs should attest to its shortcomings. The German pilots who flew the aircraft said that the MiG-29 looked good at an airshow but they wouldnt have wanted to take one to combat. Advanced versions such as the SMT and MiG-33? Certainly better but has anyone bought one?
> 
> Lt. Col. Johann Köck, commander of the German MiG-29 squadron from
> September 1995 to September 1997, was outspoken in his evaluation of the Fulcrum. It has no range, its navigation system is unreliable and the radar breaks often and does not lend it self to autonomous operations, he said. He added that the best mission for NATO MiG-29s would be as a dedicated adversary aircraft for other NATO fighters and not as part of NATOs frontline fighter force.



Is there still any doubt in the minds of people who have repeatedly stated that PAF should have gone for MIG 29's instead of waiting for more F-16's Blk 52's?


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## SBD-3

F86 Saber said:


> Is there still any doubt in the minds of people who have repeatedly stated that PAF should have gone for MIG 29's instead of waiting for more F-16's Blk 52's?


you will always find such people over here....But I would give the credit to Indian posters for this rather than impressed Pakistani ones cuz they really do describe their ACs as formidable. I can remember a wave against FC-20 in the same forum then a similar one against JF-17 and now as you mentioned against F-16. We also have many posters with active posts on Twin engines rather than single engine. Even though I appreciate their feelings....but they must remember that just having a twin engines will not make a fighter an excellent one....the aim of an air craft should be to beat the hell out of the opponents what we call maneuverability. As long is my AC is more maneuverable and has a good ammo, even the legendary swat cat tri-engine turbocat stand little chance against me.


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## MastanKhan

F86 Saber said:


> Is there still any doubt in the minds of people who have repeatedly stated that PAF should have gone for MIG 29's instead of waiting for more F-16's Blk 52's?



Hi,

Isn't that a dillema of the worst kind---a pregnant daughter walks into his rich dad's office accompanied by the cad she wants to marry---so what should the dad do---damned if he does and damned if he don't.

We know the superiority of the aircraft the blk 52---that is why we want it bad---but then the fear of sanctions keeps us nervous as well---.

Now we have to guarantee the americans about our equipment as for its usage. We are getting close to more troubling times again.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## SBD-3

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Isn't that a dillema of the worst kind---a pregnant daughter walks into his rich dad's office accompanied by the cad she wants to marry---so what should the dad do---damned if he does and damned if he don't.
> 
> We know the superiority of the aircraft the blk 52---that is why we want it bad---but then the fear of sanctions keeps us nervous as well---.
> 
> Now we have to guarantee the americans about our equipment as for its usage. We are getting close to more troubling times again.



I agree.....strings are the only bad thing in deal...well tell you what ....we have paid for these machines.....we own them...and we will use them as per our will......


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Koga Ryu said:


> MiG-29 Fulcrum Versus F-16 Viper
> 
> The baseline MiG-29 for this comparison will be the MiG-29A (except for 200 kg more fuel and an internal jammer, the MiG-29C was not an improvement over the MiG-29A), as this was the most widely deployed version of the aircraft. The baseline F-16 will be the F-16C Block 40. Although there is a more advanced and powerful version of the F-16C, the Block 40 was produced and fielded during the height of Fulcrum production.
> 
> A combat loaded MiG-29A tips the scales at approximately 38, 500 pounds. This figure includes a full load of internal fuel, two AA-10A Alamo missiles, four AA-11 Archer missiles, 150 rounds of 30mm ammunition and a full centerline 1,500 liter external fuel tank. With 18,600 pounds of thrust per engine, this gives the Fulcrum a takeoff thrust-to-weight ratio of 0.97:1. A similarly loaded air-to-air configured F-16 Block 40 would carry four AIM-120 AMRAAM active radar-guided missiles, two AIM-9M IR-guided missiles, 510 rounds of 20mm ammunition and a 300 gallon external centerline fuel tank. In this configuration, the F-16 weighs 31,640 pounds. With 29,000 pounds of thrust, the F-16 has a takeoff thrust-to-weight ratio of 0.92:1. The reader should be cautioned that these thrust-to-weight ratios are based on uninstalled thrust. Once an engine is installed in the aircraft, it produces less thrust than it does on a test stand due to the air intake allowing in less air than the engine has available on the test stand.
> The actual installed thrust-to-weight ratios vary based on the source. On average, they are in the 1:1 regime or better for both aircraft. The centerline fuel tanks can be jettisoned and probably would be if the situation dictated with an associated decrease in drag and weight and an increase in performance.
> 
> Speed
> 
> Both aircraft display good performance throughout their flight regimes in the comparison configuration. The MiG-29 enjoys a speed advantage at high altitude with a flight manual limit of Mach 2.3. The F-16s high altitude limit is
> Mach 2.05 but this is more of a limit of inlet design. The MiG-29 has variable geometry inlets to control the shock wave that forms in the inlet and prevent supersonic flow from reaching the engine. The F-16 employs a simple fixed-geometry inlet with a sharp upper lip that extends out beyond the lower portion of the inlet. A shock wave forms on this lip and prevents the flow in the intake from going supersonic. The objective is to keep the air going into the engine subsonic unlike a certain subject matter expert on this website who thinks that the air should be accelerated to even higher speeds than the aircraft is traveling. Supersonic air in the compressor section? Thats bad.
> 
> Both aircraft have the same indicated airspeed limit at lower altitudes of
> 810 knots. This would require the centerline tanks to be jettisoned. The placard limits for the tanks are 600 knots or Mach 1.6 (Mach 1.5 for the MiG-29) whichever less is. It was the researchers experience that the MiG-29 would probably not reach this limit unless a dive was initiated. The F-16 Block 40 will easily reach 800 knots on the deck. In fact, power must be reduced to avoid exceeding placard limits. The limit is not thrust, as the F-16 has been test flown on the plus side of 900 knots. The limit for the F-16 is the canopy. Heating due to air friction at such speeds will cause the polycarbonate canopy to get soft and ultimately fail.
> 
> Turning Capability
> 
> The MiG-29 and F-16 are both considered 9 G aircraft. Until the centerline tank is empty, the Fulcrum is limited to four Gs and the Viper to seven Gs. The
> MiG-29 is also limited to seven Gs above Mach 0.85 while the F-16, once the centerline tank is empty (or jettisoned) can go to nine Gs regardless of airspeed or Mach number. The MiG-29s seven G limit is due to loads on the vertical stabilizers. MAPO has advertised that the Fulcrum could be stressed to 12 Gs and still not hurt the airframe. This statement is probably wishful and boastful. The German Luftwaffe, which flew its MiG-29s probably more aggressively than any other operator, experienced cracks in the structure at the base of the vertical tails. The F-16 can actually exceed nine Gs without overstressing the airframe. Depending on configuration, momentary overshoots to as much as 10.3 Gs will not cause any concern with aircraft maintainers.
> 
> Handling
> 
> Of the four fighters I have flown, the MiG-29 has by far the worst handling qualities. The hydro-mechanical flight control system uses an artificial feel system of springs and pulleys to simulate control force changes with varying airspeeds and altitudes. There is a stability augmentation system that makes the aircraft easier to fly but also makes the aircraft more sluggish to flight control inputs. It is my opinion that the jet is more responsive with the augmentation system disengaged. Unfortunately, this was allowed for demonstration purposes only as this also disengages the angle-of-attack (AoA) limiter. Stick forces are relatively light but the stick requires a lot of movement to get the desired response. This only adds to sluggish feeling of the aircraft. The entire time you are flying, the stick will move randomly about one-half inch on its own with a corresponding movement of the flight control surface. Flying the Fulcrum requires constant attention. If the pilot takes his hand off the throttles, the throttles probably won't stay in the position in which they were left. They'll probably slide back into the 'idle' position.
> 
> The Fulcrum is relatively easy to fly during most phases of flight such as takeoff, climb, cruise and landing. However, due to flight control limitations, the pilot must work hard to get the jet to respond the way he wants. This is especially evident in aggressive maneuvering, flying formation or during attempts to employ the gun. Aerial gunnery requires very precise handling in order to be successful. The MiG-29s handling qualities in no way limit the ability of the pilot to perform his mission, but they do dramatically increase his workload. The F-16s quadruple-redundant digital flight control system, on the other hand, is extremely responsive, precise and smooth throughout the flight regime.
> 
> There is no auto-trim system in the MiG-29 as in the F-16. Trimming the aircraft is practically an unattainable state of grace in the Fulcrum. The trim of the aircraft is very sensitive to changes in airspeed and power and requires constant attention. Changes to aircraft configuration such as raising and lowering the landing gear and flaps cause significant changes in pitch trim that the pilot must be prepared for. As a result, the MiG-29 requires constant attention to fly. The F-16 auto-trims to one G or for whatever G the pilot has manually trimmed the aircraft for.
> 
> The MiG-29 flight control system also has an AoA limiter that limits the allowable AoA to 26°. As the aircraft reaches the limit, pistons at the base of the stick push the stick forward and reduce the AoA about 5°. The pilot has to fight the flight controls to hold the jet at 26°. The limiter can be overridden, however, with about 17 kg more back pressure on the stick. While not entirely unsafe and at times tactically useful, care must be taken not to attempt to roll the aircraft with ailerons when above 26° AoA. In this case it is best to control roll with the rudders due to adverse yaw caused by the ailerons at high AoA. The F-16 is electronically limited to 26° AoA. While the pilot cannot manually override this limit it is possible to overshoot under certain conditions and risk departure from controlled flight. This is a disadvantage to the F-16 but is a safety margin due its lack of longitudinal stability. Both aircraft have a lift limit of approximately
> 35° AoA.
> 
> Combat Scenario
> 
> The ultimate comparison of two fighter aircraft comes down to a combat duel between them. After the Berlin Wall came down the reunified Germany inherited 24 MiG-29s from the Nationale Volksarmee of East Germany. The lessons of capitalism were not lost on MAPO-MiG (the Fulcrums manufacturer) who saw this as an opportunity to compare the Fulcrum directly with western types during NATO training exercises. MAPO was quick to boast how the MiG-29 had bested F-15s and F-16s in mock aerial combat. They claimed a combination of the MiGs superior sensors, weapons and low radar cross section allowed the Fulcrum to beat western aircraft. However, much of the early exploitation was done more to ascertain the MiG-29s capabilities versus attempting to determine what the outcome of actual combat would be. The western press was also quick to pick up on the theme. In 1991, Benjamin Lambeth cited an article in Janes Defence Weekly which stated that the German MiG-29s had beaten F-16s with simulated BVR range shots of more than 60 km. How was this possible when the MiG-29 cannot launch an AA-10A Alamo from outside about 25 km? Was this a case of the fish getting bigger with every telling of the story? The actual BVR capability of the MiG-29 was my biggest disappointment. Was it further exposure to the German Fulcrums in realistic training that showed the jet for what it truly is? It seems that MAPOs free advertising backfired in the end as further orders were limited to the 18 airplanes sold to Malaysia.
> 
> If F-16Cs and MiG-29s face off in aerial combat, both would detect each other on the radar at comparable range. Armed with the AIM-120 AMRAAM, the F-16s would have the first shot opportunity at more than twice the range as the Fulcrums. A single F-16 would be able to discriminately target individual and multiple Fulcrums. The MiG-29s radar will not allow this. If there is more than one F-16 in a formation, a Fulcrum pilot would not know exactly which F-16 the radar had locked and he can engage only one F-16 at a time. A Viper pilot can launch AMRAAMS against multiple MiG-29s on the first pass and support his missiles via data link until the missiles go active. He can break the radar lock and leave or continue to the visual arena and employ short range infrared guided missiles or the gun. The Fulcrum pilot must wait until about 13 nautical miles (24 kilometers) before he can shoot his BVR missile. The Alamo is a semi-active missile that must be supported by the launching aircraft until impact. This brings the Fulcrum pilot closer to the AMRAAM. In fact, just as the the Fulcrum pilot gets in range to fire an Alamo, the AMRAAM is seconds away from impacting his aircraft. The advantage goes to the F-16.
> 
> What if both pilots are committed to engage visually? The F-16 should have the initial advantage as he knows the Fulcrums exact altitude and has the target designator box in the head-up display (HUD) to aid in visual acquisition. The Fulcrums engines smoke heavily and are a good aid to gaining sight of the adversary. Another advantage is the F-16s large bubble canopy with 360° field-of-view. The Fulcrum pilots HUD doesnt help much in gaining sight of the F-16. The F-16 is small and has a smokeless engine. The MiG-29 pilot sets low in his cockpit and visibility between the 4 oclock and 7 oclock positions is virtually nonexistent.
> 
> Charts that compare actual maneuvering performance of the two aircraft are classified. It was the researchers experience that the aircraft have comparable initial turning performance. However, the MiG-29 suffers from a higher energy bleed rate than the F-16. This is due to high induced drag on the airframe during high-G maneuvering. F-16 pilots that have flown against the Fulcrum have made similar observations that the F-16 can sustain a high-G turn longer. This results in a turn rate advantage that translates into a positional advantage for the F-16.
> 
> The F-16 is also much easier to fly and is more responsive at slow speed.
> The Fulcrums maximum roll rate is 160° per second. At slow speed this decreases to around 20° per second. Coupled with the large amount of stick movement required, the Fulcrum is extremely sluggish at slow speed. Maneuvering to defeat a close-range gun shot is extremely difficult if the airplane wont move. For comparison, the F-16s slow speed roll rate is a little more than 80° per second.
> 
> A lot has been written and theorized about the so-called Cobra Maneuver that impresses people at airshows. MAPO claimed that no western fighter dare do this same maneuver in public. They also claimed that the Cobra could be used to break the radar lock of an enemy fighter (due to the slow airspeed, there is no Doppler signal for the radar to track) or point the nose of the aircraft to employ weapons. Western fighter pilots were content to let the Russians brag and hope for the opportunity to see a MiG-29 give up all its airspeed. The fact that this maneuver is prohibited in the flight manual only validates the fact that this maneuver was a stunt. Lambeth was the first American to get a flight in the Fulcrum. Even his pilot conceded that the Cobra required a specially prepared aircraft and was prohibited in operational MiG-29 units
> 
> Another maneuver performed by the Fulcrum during its introduction to the West is the so-called Tail Slide. The nose of the jet is brought to 90° pitch and the airspeed is allowed to decay. Eventually, the Fulcrum begins to slide back, tail-first, until the nose drops and the jet begins to fly normally again. The Soviets boasted this maneuver demonstrated how robust the engines were as this would cause western engines to flameout. The first maneuver demonstrated to me during my F-15 training was the Tail Slide. The engines did not flameout.
> 
> The MiG-29 is not without strong points. The pilot can override the angle of attack limiter. This is especially useful in vertical maneuvering or in last ditch attempts to bring weapons to bear or defeat enemy shots. The HMS and AA-11 Archer make the Fulcrum a deadly foe in the visual arena. The AA-11 is far superior to the American AIM-9M. By merely turning his head, the MiG pilot can bring an Archer to bear. The one limitation, however, is that the Fulcrum pilot has no cue as to where the Archer seeker head is actually looking. This makes it impossible to determine if the missile is tracking the target, a flare, or some other hot spot in the background. (Note: the AIM-9X which is already fielded on the F-15C, and to be fielded on the F-16 in 2007, is far superior to the AA-11)
> 
> Fulcrum pilots have enjoyed their most success with the HMS/Archer combination in one versus one training missions. In this sterile environment, where both aircraft start within visual range of each other, the MiG-29 has a great advantage. Not because it is more maneuverable than the F-16. That is most certainly not the case regardless of the claims of the Fulcrums manufacturer and numerous other misinformed propaganda sources. The weapon/sensor integration with the HMS and Archer makes close-in missile employment extremely easy for the Fulcrums pilot. My only one versus one fight against a MiG-29 (in something other than another MiG-29) was flown in an F-16 Block 52. This was done against a German MiG-29 at Nellis AFB, Nevada. The F-16 outturned and out-powered the Fulcrum in every situation.
> 
> The Fulcrums gun system is fairly accurate as long as the target does not attempt to defeat the shot. If the target maneuvers, the gunsight requires large corrections to get back to solution. Coupled with the jets imprecise handling, this makes close-in maneuvering difficult. This is very important when using the gun. Although the Fulcrum has a 30 mm cannon, the muzzle velocity is no more than the 20 mm rounds coming out of the F-16s gun. The MiGs effective gun range is actually less than that of the F-16 as the 20 mm rounds are more aerodynamic and maintain their velocity longer.
> 
> If the fight lasts very long, the MiG pilot is at a decided disadvantage and must either kill his foe or find a timely opportunity to leave the fight without placing himself on the defensive. The Fulcrum A holds only 300 pounds more internal fuel than the F-16 and its two engines go through it quickly. There are no fuel flow gauges in the cockpit. Using the clock and the fuel gauge, in full afterburner the MiG-29 uses fuel 3.5 to 4 times faster than the Viper. My shortest MiG-29 sortie was 16 minutes from brake release to touchdown.
> 
> It should not be forgotten that fights between fighters do not occur in a vacuum. One-versus-one comparisons are one thing, but start to include other fighters into the fray and situational awareness (SA) plays an even bigger role. The lack of SA-building tools for MiG-29 pilots will become an even bigger factor if they have more aircraft to keep track of. Poor radar and HUD displays, poor cockpit ergonomics and poor handling qualities added to the Fulcrum pilots workload and degraded his overall SA. It was my experience during one-versus-one scenarios emphasizing dogfighting skills, the results came down to pilot skill.
> 
> In multi-ship scenarios, such as a typical four versus four training mission, the advantage clearly went to the side with the highest SA. Against F-15s and F-16s in multi-ship fights, the MiG-29s were always outclassed. It was nearly impossible to use the great potential of the HMS/Archer combination when all the Eagles and Vipers couldnt be accounted for and the Fulcrums were on the defensive. The MiG-29s design was a result of the Soviet view on tactical aviation and the level of technology available to their aircraft industry. The pilot was not meant to have a lot of SA. The center of fighter execution was the ground controller. The pilots job was to do as instructed and not to make independent decisions. Even the data link system in the MiG-29 was not meant to enhance the pilots SA. He was merely linked steering, altitude and heading cues to follow from the controller. If the MiG-29 pilot is cut off from his controller, his autonomous capabilities are extremely limited. Western fighter pilots are given the tools they need to make independent tactical decisions. The mission commander is a pilot on the scene. All other assets are there to assist and not to direct. If the F-16 pilot loses contact with support assets such as the E-3 Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft, he has all the tools to complete the mission autonomously.
> 
> The combat record of the MiG-29 speaks for itself. American F-15s and F-
> 16s (a Dutch F-16 shot down a MiG-29 during Operation Allied Force) have downed MiG-29s every time there has been encounters between the types. The only known MiG-29 victories occurred during Operation Desert Storm when an Iraqi MiG-29 shot down his own wingman on the first night of the war and a Cuban MiG-29 brought down 2 mighty Cessnas. Are there more victories for the Fulcrum? Not against F-15s or F-16s.
> 
> Designed and built to counter the fourth generation American fighters, The MiG-29 Fulcrum was a concept that was technologically and doctrinally hindered from the beginning. Feared in the west prior to the demise of the Soviet Union, it was merely an incremental improvement to the earlier Soviet fighters it replaced. Its lack of a market when put in direct competition to western designs should attest to its shortcomings. The German pilots who flew the aircraft said that the MiG-29 looked good at an airshow but they wouldnt have wanted to take one to combat. Advanced versions such as the SMT and MiG-33? Certainly better but has anyone bought one?
> 
> Lt. Col. Johann Köck, commander of the German MiG-29 squadron from
> September 1995 to September 1997, was outspoken in his evaluation of the Fulcrum. It has no range, its navigation system is unreliable and the radar breaks often and does not lend it self to autonomous operations, he said. He added that the best mission for NATO MiG-29s would be as a dedicated adversary aircraft for other NATO fighters and not as part of NATOs frontline fighter force.



Interesting article. The turning performance of the F-16 series, the fuel flow, the basic handling characteristics, remain pretty much unchanged throughout the production. Most of the improvements come with the avionics, radar, pods and ground attack packages.

The great strength of Western fighters is in what we can call "the sort", and was what made other aircraft like the F-15 as good as it is. 

Sorting is the ability to detect all entities within a piece of sky, and assign targeting responsibilties. One benefit of a good sort process is excellent situational awareness, and a maximum number of targeted bandits. This guy apparently has flown in a number of fighters, and I would take what he says about this particular MiG-29's radar capabilities at face value.

If the engines indeed smoke, that is an extremely bad characteristic.

F-4's smoke when they are not in afterburner, making them very easy to see. To attempt to hide, they usually go min AB approaching a merge, which hides the smoke, but turns him into a screaming hot source for all-aspect heat seeking missiles.

The numbers associated with G loadings, airspeeds, and external fuel are also very revealing.

In older days (3 decades back) the only aircraft USAF personnels feared was the F-16. Everything else (F-14, FA-18 - no super hornets then - Tornado, Everything that flew was easy target to them. Only the F-16 could compete, and then only if they survive to the merge.

There is no excuse for an F-16 to EVER lose a turning fight. It is a phenominal turning airplane. 

F-16 when properly flown, is a match for anything airborne with the possible exception of the advanced Sukhois, where there will be parity, and of course the F-22.

I see the Sukhoi design bureau skyrocketing, while the great MiG bureau is in decline, which is interesting when you consider MiG designed the very best Soviet fighters since 1940's.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

The colonel rips apart the mig 29 as ruthlessley as he can while looking so calm and cool. Literally tears apart the pride of russian airforce and russian air force pilots.

Cold war relics.


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## imranyounasbutt

actually i asked how much time require to built one f-16 jet...secondly i asked that anybody tell me date of delivery of mlu kits.


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## Mani2020

Well with the gradual increase in the number of f-16's and the total strength of f-16's to be reached somewhere around 100

I can smell Kc-135 tanker coming in Paf sooner or later unless and untill PAF go for Airbus MRTT

This is getting bit obvious as f-16's would form the backbone of PAF specially with the induction of blk52's and MLU of A/b's


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## SBD-3




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## SBD-3




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## GUNNER

US to deliver 18 F-16s to Pakistan by months end

By Zahid Gishkori 
June 13, 2010

ISLAMABAD: The United States will deliver 18 F-16 fighter jets to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) by the end of this month, The Express Tribune has learnt. The Block 50/52 model jets will land at an airbase in Sindh, officials said here on Saturday.

The F-16, equipped with the latest missiles, will arrive at Shahbaz Airbase in Jacobabad in the last week of June, PAF Director Media Tariq Yazdani confirmed.

However, he avoided revealing the exact date the jets would land in Pakistan. According to sources privy to the deal, the delivery is expected to take place on June 24.

The runways have been renovated for modern F-16 fighter jets, to transform the airbase into a completely operational one, Yazdani said.

Informed sources said that the fighters were being delivered to Pakistan under a series of strict conditions by Washington. One of these stipulations is that Pakistan would not use the jets in any conflict with India, the source further added.

Another condition is that American air force engineers will accompany the delivery of the F-16s and supervise not only the air base but also the operations to be carried out by PAF against Taliban and al Qaeda.

Furthermore, though flown by PAF pilots, the logistics, management and control of the F-16s will be with the US engineers.

Some American engineers will accompany the new fighter jets and will help the PAF engineers operate these F-16s for a short period accordingly, a senior PAF official said, however hastening to add that no American pilots will be stationed at Shahbaz Airbase, he stressed.

No foreigner, not even from the friendliest countries, will be allowed to have access to Shahbaz Airbase, a source said, revealing the security and secrecy surrounding the deal.

According to these sources, approximately US$500 million were spent in the effort to upgrade the airbase to make it conducive to the new F-16s.

Meanwhile, Akhtar Munir of the Ministry of Defences public relations office also confirmed to The Express Tribune that the arrangements regarding the delivery of the new F-16 jets by the end of this month have been finalised.

The Pakistani defence minister in a meeting with the Australian defence minister three days back at Islamabad told senior officials that 18 F-16s are being delivered to Pakistan within three weeks, Munir said.

To a query, he said that the bill of effectively rebuilding Shahbaz Airbase was footed by the PAF and the Ministry of Defence to ensure that all necessary infrastructural requirements of the new jets are met.

He went on to say that the security of the Airbase has been enhanced and no one but PAF officials will be allowed to have access to the renovated airbase located in Jacobabad.

Director General Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) Major Gen. Athar Abbas, when contacted regarding the delivery, said he could only confirm the details after consulting with the PAF authorities. However, he did say that a meeting of all concerned quarters may be held next week to finalise arrangements.

Meanwhile, a senior PAF official, on the condition of anonymity, said that approximately Rs25 billion were allocated for upgrading of the airbase.

Elaborating, he said that the Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) provided Rs7 billion to convert Shahbaz from a forward-operating base to a main-operating base, he added.

It is also pertinent to mention here that with the addition of 18 new F-16s, the total number of jet fighters in PAF will cross 50.The PAF currently has the Block 15 A/B F-16 models in operation, which have upgraded APG-66 radars.

It is expected that the much-demanded large-scale military operation against the Taliban and al Qaeda in North Waziristan will be launched after the US delivers the F-16s.

Published in the Express Tribune, June 13th, 2010.

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## keyboard

@ GUNNER 
*
One of these stipulations is that Pakistan would not use the jets in any conflict with India, the source further added.

Another condition is that American air force engineers will accompany the delivery of the F-16s and supervise not only the air base but also the operations to be carried out by PAF against Taliban and al Qaeda.

Furthermore, though flown by PAF pilots, the logistics, management and control of the F-16s will be with the US engineers.*

I dnt know abt that................ Is this true ????


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## Hasnain2009

keyboard said:


> @ GUNNER
> *
> One of these stipulations is that Pakistan would not use the jets in any conflict with India, the source further added.
> 
> Another condition is that American air force engineers will accompany the delivery of the F-16s and supervise not only the air base but also the operations to be carried out by PAF against Taliban and al Qaeda.
> 
> Furthermore, though flown by PAF pilots, the logistics, management and control of the F-16s will be with the US engineers.*
> 
> I dnt know abt that................ Is this true ????



So they are giving us 500 c-5's(Advanced version of AIM - 120) to fight taliban airforce?

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## Hasnain2009

GUNNER said:


> US to deliver 18 F-16s to Pakistan by months end
> 
> By Zahid Gishkori
> June 13, 2010
> 
> ISLAMABAD: The United States will deliver 18 F-16 fighter jets to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) by the end of this month, The Express Tribune has learnt. The Block 50/52 model jets will land at an airbase in Sindh, officials said here on Saturday.
> 
> The F-16, equipped with the latest missiles, will arrive at Shahbaz Airbase in Jacobabad in the last week of June, PAF Director Media Tariq Yazdani confirmed.
> 
> However, he avoided revealing the exact date the jets would land in Pakistan. According to sources privy to the deal, the delivery is expected to take place on June 24.
> 
> The runways have been renovated for modern F-16 fighter jets, to transform the airbase into a completely operational one, Yazdani said.
> 
> Informed sources said that the fighters were being delivered to Pakistan under a series of strict conditions by Washington. One of these stipulations is that Pakistan would not use the jets in any conflict with India, the source further added.
> 
> Another condition is that American air force engineers will accompany the delivery of the F-16s and supervise not only the air base but also the operations to be carried out by PAF against Taliban and al Qaeda.
> 
> Furthermore, though flown by PAF pilots, the logistics, management and control of the F-16s will be with the US engineers.
> 
> Some American engineers will accompany the new fighter jets and will help the PAF engineers operate these F-16s for a short period accordingly, a senior PAF official said, however hastening to add that no American pilots will be stationed at Shahbaz Airbase, he stressed.
> 
> No foreigner, not even from the friendliest countries, will be allowed to have access to Shahbaz Airbase, a source said, revealing the security and secrecy surrounding the deal.
> 
> According to these sources, approximately US$500 million were spent in the effort to upgrade the airbase to make it conducive to the new F-16s.
> 
> Meanwhile, Akhtar Munir of the Ministry of Defences public relations office also confirmed to The Express Tribune that the arrangements regarding the delivery of the new F-16 jets by the end of this month have been finalised.
> 
> The Pakistani defence minister in a meeting with the Australian defence minister three days back at Islamabad told senior officials that 18 F-16s are being delivered to Pakistan within three weeks, Munir said.
> 
> To a query, he said that the bill of effectively rebuilding Shahbaz Airbase was footed by the PAF and the Ministry of Defence to ensure that all necessary infrastructural requirements of the new jets are met.
> 
> He went on to say that the security of the Airbase has been enhanced and no one but PAF officials will be allowed to have access to the renovated airbase located in Jacobabad.
> 
> Director General Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) Major Gen. Athar Abbas, when contacted regarding the delivery, said he could only confirm the details after consulting with the PAF authorities. However, he did say that a meeting of all concerned quarters may be held next week to finalise arrangements.
> 
> Meanwhile, a senior PAF official, on the condition of anonymity, said that approximately Rs25 billion were allocated for upgrading of the airbase.
> 
> Elaborating, he said that the Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) provided Rs7 billion to convert Shahbaz from a forward-operating base to a main-operating base, he added.
> 
> It is also pertinent to mention here that with the addition of 18 new F-16s, the total number of jet fighters in PAF will cross 50.The PAF currently has the Block 15 A/B F-16 models in operation, which have upgraded APG-66 radars.
> 
> It is expected that the much-demanded large-scale military operation against the Taliban and al Qaeda in North Waziristan will be launched after the US delivers the F-16s.
> 
> Published in the Express Tribune, June 13th, 2010.



18 F-16 blk 50/52 this month?


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## fatman17

keyboard said:


> @ GUNNER
> *
> One of these stipulations is that Pakistan would not use the jets in any conflict with India, the source further added.
> 
> Another condition is that American air force engineers will accompany the delivery of the F-16s and supervise not only the air base but also the operations to be carried out by PAF against Taliban and al Qaeda.
> 
> Furthermore, though flown by PAF pilots, the logistics, management and control of the F-16s will be with the US engineers.*
> 
> I dnt know abt that................ Is this true ????



what do u think? and if your IAF chooses the F16IN or the F18E/F would u agree to these terms???

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## fatman17

Hasnain2009 said:


> 18 F-16 blk 50/52 this month?



aray bhai - 4 in june and at the same rate 16 by end dec-2010 and the full 18 by jan-2011 along with the AMRAMs

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## GUNNER

keyboard said:


> @ GUNNER
> *
> One of these stipulations is that Pakistan would not use the jets in any conflict with India, the source further added.
> 
> Another condition is that American air force engineers will accompany the delivery of the F-16s and supervise not only the air base but also the operations to be carried out by PAF against Taliban and al Qaeda.
> 
> Furthermore, though flown by PAF pilots, the logistics, management and control of the F-16s will be with the US engineers.*
> 
> I dnt know abt that................ Is this true ????




This is a stipulation..No confirmation.. I guess the report included this just because the issue is in the air these days.. !


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## fatman17

every single new weapons platform requires the presence of 'technicians' from the supplier country to ensure a smooth 'handling' and 'handing over' of the weapons platform - these are expensive toys (~$40m each) and all the PAF ground staff are not 'acustomed' to them - fyi 8 pilots who have completed their trg in the US will act as IPs for further trg PAF pilots - upto 40 PAF technicians/ground staff are currently undergoing trg at LM in Texas.

when we had F-86s/F-104s/B-57s there were US servicemen present here for short durations.

when we got the Mirage III/Vs, french personnel were present here for short durations.

when we got the chinese F-6/F-7s, chinese personnel were/are present here for short durations.

2 weeks ago i met a US citizen from wyoming who was going to multan - after much pestering, he admitted that he was a Cobra technician and was invited by the pak govt to help in the upgrade of the recently delivered 16 ex-jordan cobras.

get my meaning.......!!!

as far as using our assets v. india - yes the US does not want to see pakistan attack india but if india decides to attack pakistan, then all 'conditions' are OFF!

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## farhan_9909

GUNNER said:


> US to deliver 18 F-16s to Pakistan by months end
> 
> By Zahid Gishkori
> June 13, 2010
> 
> ISLAMABAD: The United States will deliver 18 F-16 fighter jets to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) by the end of this month, The Express Tribune has learnt. The Block 50/52 model jets will land at an airbase in Sindh, officials said here on Saturday.
> 
> The F-16, equipped with the latest missiles, will arrive at Shahbaz Airbase in Jacobabad in the last week of June, PAF Director Media Tariq Yazdani confirmed.
> 
> However, he avoided revealing the exact date the jets would land in Pakistan. According to sources privy to the deal, the delivery is expected to take place on June 24.
> 
> The runways have been renovated for modern F-16 fighter jets, to transform the airbase into a completely operational one, Yazdani said.
> 
> Informed sources said that the fighters were being delivered to Pakistan under a series of strict conditions by Washington. One of these stipulations is that Pakistan would not use the jets in any conflict with India, the source further added.
> 
> Another condition is that American air force engineers will accompany the delivery of the F-16s and supervise not only the air base but also the operations to be carried out by PAF against Taliban and al Qaeda.
> 
> Furthermore, though flown by PAF pilots, the logistics, management and control of the F-16s will be with the US engineers.
> 
> Some American engineers will accompany the new fighter jets and will help the PAF engineers operate these F-16s for a short period accordingly, a senior PAF official said, however hastening to add that no American pilots will be stationed at Shahbaz Airbase, he stressed.
> 
> No foreigner, not even from the friendliest countries, will be allowed to have access to Shahbaz Airbase, a source said, revealing the security and secrecy surrounding the deal.
> 
> According to these sources, approximately US$500 million were spent in the effort to upgrade the airbase to make it conducive to the new F-16s.
> 
> Meanwhile, Akhtar Munir of the Ministry of Defences public relations office also confirmed to The Express Tribune that the arrangements regarding the delivery of the new F-16 jets by the end of this month have been finalised.
> 
> The Pakistani defence minister in a meeting with the Australian defence minister three days back at Islamabad told senior officials that 18 F-16s are being delivered to Pakistan within three weeks, Munir said.
> 
> To a query, he said that the bill of effectively rebuilding Shahbaz Airbase was footed by the PAF and the Ministry of Defence to ensure that all necessary infrastructural requirements of the new jets are met.
> 
> He went on to say that the security of the Airbase has been enhanced and no one but PAF officials will be allowed to have access to the renovated airbase located in Jacobabad.
> 
> Director General Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) Major Gen. Athar Abbas, when contacted regarding the delivery, said he could only confirm the details after consulting with the PAF authorities. However, he did say that a meeting of all concerned quarters may be held next week to finalise arrangements.
> 
> Meanwhile, a senior PAF official, on the condition of anonymity, said that approximately Rs25 billion were allocated for upgrading of the airbase.
> 
> Elaborating, he said that the Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) provided Rs7 billion to convert Shahbaz from a forward-operating base to a main-operating base, he added.
> 
> It is also pertinent to mention here that with the addition of 18 new F-16s, the total number of jet fighters in PAF will cross 50.The PAF currently has the Block 15 A/B F-16 models in operation, which have upgraded APG-66 radars.
> 
> It is expected that the much-demanded large-scale military operation against the Taliban and al Qaeda in North Waziristan will be launched after the US delivers the F-16s.
> 
> Published in the Express Tribune, June 13th, 2010.



18 f-16?:O

i thought only 4..this is amazing..


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## v9s

GUNNER said:


> No foreigner, not even from the friendliest countries, will be allowed to have access to Shahbaz Airbase, a source said, revealing the security and secrecy surrounding the deal.



It's almost as if we're getting f-22's


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## keyboard

fatman17 said:


> what do u think? and if your IAF chooses the F16IN or the F18E/F would u agree to these terms???



Their is a different b/w both the counties ........ They offer us F16IN and F18E\F so if we choose them so choose them on our conditions


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## Luftwaffe

keyboard...
If you india choose them you choose them on your conditions according to you the voice of india, now state those conditions would it be used or not against Pakistan.

The seller always apply certain conditions to sell their product. They the seller are not short of customers world wide. If you buy them you will declare your intentions and state the conditions.


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## keyboard

luftwaffe said:


> If you buy them you will declare your intentions and state the conditions.



We use them against Pakistan or any other nation that come against us . we can declare it openly .... but can Pakistan do the same ????


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## M8R

These conditions were there in 1965 too.The sabres were meant to fight Soviet Union not Indians but if war comes then all bets are off.PAF can and will use these jets for operations against India.If you have any doubt then i think it's good for us.The people coming with F-16's are not crew members.They are LM Employees hired by US government to make sure nothing on F-16 is altered or his nothing is provided to other countries.It will take 1 year and then all crew be local.USG even today has option to come to Pakistan anytime to inspect F-16's.It's nothing new.


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## Luftwaffe

I am sure other nations have no time to come against you only you guys are obsessed with war.


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## MastanKhan

Hasnain2009 said:


> So they are giving us 500 c-5's(Advanced version of AIM - 120) to fight taliban airforce?



Hi,

Now now now---keep a lid on it and don't tell anyone. That is our secret.

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## M8R

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Now now now---keep a lid on it and don't tell anyone. That is our secret.


yep, no need to explain to Indians.Besides the 500 Aim 120 are paid for by Pakistan tax payer's money.


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## air marshal

*PAF to get F-16s with tough stipulations*
June 14, 2010

ISLAMABAD: Despite being a key ally in the war against terrorism in which Pakistan have rendered innumerable sacrifices, the United States is extending military assistance to Islamabad under strict conditions and stipulations, reflecting the nature of relations between the two countries.

According to sources, Washington will deliver 18 F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan Air Force (PAF) by the end of this month under a series of conditions including an assurance from Pakistan that aircraft would not be used in any conflict with India.

During last weeks strategic dialogue between India and the US, the Indian leaders had conveyed to their counterparts in Washington their concerns over the US military assistance to Pakistan. Besides assuring Indian side, Washington for the first time came out open to state that it was taking steps to ensure that its military aid to Pakistan would not be used against India.

Sources said the US Air Force engineers would accompany the delivery of the F-16s and supervise not only the airbase but also the operations to be carried out by the PAF against Taliban and Al-Qaeda. Though the PAF pilots will fly the jets, the logistics, management and control is stated to remain with the US engineers.

Sources said the Block 50/52 Model F-16 jets equipped with latest missiles would land at Shahbaz Airbase in Jacoabad. It is said that around US$500 million were spent to upgrade the airbase to make it conducive to the new F-16s.

PAF to get F-16s with tough stipulations | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## Sapper

Dear,

These restrictions are called End Use Monitoring (EUM/EUMA) provisions, for which US arms deals are infamous. We have many of our Maritime and Airborne fleet already using the same EUMs as the F16s we are getting now. Many ships of our Navy fleet, P3Cs, Harpoons, F16s, C130s and AH-1 Cobras already come under the same EUM that we are facing once again.

The solution is to adhere to these restrictions for the most part, and double up these equipments with EUM free acquisition of Ships, Atlantiques/Erieye/ZDK03, Exocet, JF17/Mirage/FC20, Y12 etc to use in places where these restrictions could be violated in peace time.

Of course, all bets are off once survival is at stake, and in those times, no will have the time, nor the inclination to check whether we are not adhering to provisions stated in chapter 4, paragraph 3, article 7.

We must continue to increase purchase of EUM free arms, and from nations who are famous for non EUM munition like France, Russia, China, Brazil, South Africa and the likes. But this is not enough reason to hold off our defense requirements to something we need in our fleet YESTERDAY, if we are hold off against the humongous IAF acquisitions.

For further study, read these reports of EUMs for Indian acquisition of US weapons.
India Balks at C-130, P-8 Restrictions - Defense News
Factsheet on U.S-India accord on end-use monitoring - Windows Live

Note: This is not to start India Vs Pakistan flame war, just to inform people that this is regular terms and condition for US arms sales, and every war we have fought till now has been with the same weapons.

Regards,
Sapper

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## M8R

Sapper said:


> Dear,
> 
> These restrictions are called End Use Monitoring (EUM/EUMA) provisions, for which US arms deals are infamous. We have many of our Maritime and Airborne fleet already using the same EUMs as the F16s we are getting now. Many ships of our Navy fleet, P3Cs, Harpoons, F16s, C130s and AH-1 Cobras already come under the same EUM that we are facing once again.
> 
> The solution is to adhere to these restrictions for the most part, and double up these equipments with EUM free acquisition of Ships, Atlantiques/Erieye/ZDK03, Exocet, JF17/Mirage/FC20, Y12 etc to use in places where these restrictions could be violated in peace time.
> 
> Of course, all bets are off once survival is at stake, and in those times, no will have the time, nor the inclination to check whether we are not adhering to provisions stated in chapter 4, paragraph 3, article 7.
> 
> We must continue to increase purchase of EUM free arms, and from nations who are famous for non EUM munition like France, Russia, China, Brazil, South Africa and the likes. But this is not enough reason to hold off our defense requirements to something we need in our fleet YESTERDAY, if we are hold off against the humongous IAF acquisitions.
> 
> For further study read these reports of EUMs for Indian acquisition of US weapons.
> India Balks at C-130, P-8 Restrictions - Defense News
> Factsheet on U.S-India accord on end-use monitoring - Windows Live
> 
> Note: This is not to start India Vs Pakistan flame war, just to inform people that this is regular terms and condition for US arms sales, and every war we have fought till now has been with the same weapons.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper


Absolutely - Our Media is our biggest enemy.Now trying to bash this deal.Pakistan should buy as much as weapons possible from US.Once war comes US will do nothing unless we go to war with NATO.The EULA's was there in 1965 and 71 too but once war started we used all planes at our disposal (at the same time got hard sanctions from US).Besides our sanctioned birds were used to escort Nukes and fly Cap's during Kargil.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i have never heard of an arms deal where the supplier asks that their weapons not be used in certain conflicts

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## was

so i hope these conditions will be applied on india to if they choose f 16 or f18 in their mrca.or are these conditions only for us.
our so called ally is arming our enemy to the teeth.


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## farhan_9909

greement signed in March 2010 with United States for an additional 14 F-16s, variant unconfirmed, to be delivered by December 2010.[
===
List of aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

as per wiki we wil get more 14 f-16 by 2010 dec


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

It is because of our prior history of usage that such a clause is being enforced. Basically our weapons will have a purely defencive form and function.

Now why are we getting these weapons---because the u s also knows that we are way behind---so in order to create balance and parity in the region for the sake of stability, we are getting what is coming in.

None of these weapons and operating systems ,changes the balance of power----well I shouldn't put it like that---because it gives pakistan a lot more teeth and defencive strike capability as compared to when we didnot have that equipment.


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## deckingraj

was said:


> so i hope these conditions will be applied on india to if they choose f 16 or f18 in their mrca.or are these conditions only for us.
> our so called ally is arming our enemy to the teeth.



Well i have not heard on any restrictions on India.....The only restrictions are on sharing it with others or reverse copying...Though Mastan Khan has explained it beautifully but $10 Billion(and more) have lot of power....Not to forget these block 52 are part of US Aid to Pakistan....So hard cash vs Aid and no surprise parameters are different....but in the end if there is any conflict then these birds will fly to defeat the enemy...Post war scenarios will not hinder operations during war....


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## SMC

deckingraj said:


> Well i have not heard on any restrictions on India.....The only restrictions are on sharing it with others or reverse copying...Though Mastan Khan has explained it beautifully but $10 Billion(and more) have lot of power....Not to forget these block 52 are part of US Aid to Pakistan....So hard cash vs Aid and no surprise parameters are different....but in the end if there is any conflict then these birds will fly to defeat the enemy...Post war scenarios will not hinder operations during war....



Not aid at all. Our own money.

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## MZUBAIR

deckingraj said:


> Well i have not heard on any restrictions on India.....The only restrictions are on sharing it with others or reverse copying...Though Mastan Khan has explained it beautifully but $10 Billion(and more) have lot of power....*Not to forget these block 52 are part of US Aid to Pakistan*....So hard cash vs Aid and no surprise parameters are different....but in the end if there is any conflict then these birds will fly to defeat the enemy...Post war scenarios will not hinder operations during war....



Ur brainless, how many times each Indian would be explained that Pakistan paid 5+ billion $ for these new F-16's and upgradations of old ones 



> *Major U.S. Arms Sales and Grants to Pakistan Since 2001*
> 
> Major post-2001 defense supplies provided, or soon to be provided, under FMF include:
> 
> ! *eight P-3C Orion *maritime patrol aircraft and their refurbishment (valued at $474 million);
> ! about *5,250 TOW anti-armor missiles *($186 million; 2,007 delivered);
> ! more than *5,600 military radio sets *($163 million);
> ! *six AN/TPS-77 surveillance radars *($100 million);
> ! *six C-130E transport aircraft and their refurbishment *($76 million);
> ! *five refurbished SH-2I Super Seasprite maritime helicopters *granted under EDA ($67 million);
> ! *one ex-Oliver Hazard Perry class missile frigate via EDA *($65 million);
> ! *20 AH-1F Cobra attack *helicopters via EDA ($48 million, *12 refurbished *and delivered); and
> ! *121 refurbished TOW missile launchers *($25 million).
> 
> Supplies paid for with a mix of Pakistani national funds and FMF include:
> ! *up to 60 Mid-Life Update kits for F-16A/B combat aircraft *(valued at $891 million, with $477 million of this in FMF, Pakistan currently plans to purchase 35 such kits); and
> ! *115 M-109 self-propelled howitzers *($87 million, with $53 million in FMF).
> Notable items paid or to be paid for entirely with Pakistani national funds include:
> ! *18 new F-16C/D Block 50/52 combat aircraft *(valued at $1.43 billion; none delivered to date);
> !* F-16 armaments including 500 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles*; *1,450 2,000-pound bombs*; *500 JDAM Tail Kits for gravity bombs*; and *1,600 Enhanced Paveway laser-guided kits*, also for gravity bombs ($629 million);
> ! *100 Harpoon anti-ship missiles *($298 million);
> ! *500 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles *($95 million); and
> !* six Phalanx Close-In Weapons System naval guns *($80 million).
> 
> While the Pentagon notified Congress on the possible transfer to Pakistan of three P-3B aircraft as EDA grants that would be modified to carry the *E-2C Hawkeye airborne early warning suite in a deal worth up to $855 million,* this effort has not progressed beyond the notification stage. Other major EDA grantssince 2001 include 14 F-16A/B combat aircraft and 39 T-37 military trainer jets. Under Coalition
> Support Funds (part of the Pentagon budget), *Pakistan has received 26 Bell 412 utility helicopters, along with related parts and maintenance, valued at $235 million*. Finally, under 1206, Frontier Corps, and Pakistan Counterinsurgency Capability Fund authorities, the United States has provided helicopter spare parts, various night vision devices, radios, body armor, helmets, first aid kits, litters, and large quantities of other individual soldier equipment.
> 
> *Source*



I quoted the source also, plz reply if u have sensable and reasonable answer else stop flaming. Pak purchased more then 5 Billion +.$ weapons including F-16's......not only that weapons also purchased from France, China ,Sweden Brazil etc......that also have huge cost.

Reply with responsibilitiy and logicaly

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## deckingraj

SMC said:


> Not aid at all. Our own money.



Thanks for the correction...


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## deckingraj

MZUBAIR said:


> *Ur brainless, *
> 
> Reply with responsibilitiy and logicaly



Well bold part in your reply simply suggest how responsibly and logically you reply....I know it is fun to preach but not following it and that too in the same post kind of don't help....

Sometimes people do make genuine mistakes and learn from SMC and other members of how to correct them....Secondly AID or no AID the message was "no matter what weapons will be used and consequences will be tackled later on"


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## Dazzler

deckingraj,

No need to get offended as most of Indians remain under constant impression that what ever Pakistan gets from US, it has to be always in the form of PEANUTS and AID and I have seen so many posters doing the same on this forum too. 

A steady head never hurts....

Regards

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## fatman17

*! five refurbished SH-2I Super Seasprite maritime helicopters granted under EDA ($67 million);*

EDA not accepted!


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## Mani2020

fatman17 said:


> *! five refurbished SH-2I Super Seasprite maritime helicopters granted under EDA ($67 million);*
> 
> EDA not accepted!



Thx GOD that EDA not accepted otherwise we would have another junk yard man look at these helicopters they are ugly looking



almost 60 year old


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## Sapper

deckingraj said:


> Well i have not heard on any restrictions on India.....The only restrictions are on sharing it with others or reverse copying...Though Mastan Khan has explained it beautifully but $10 Billion(and more) have lot of power....Not to forget these block 52 are part of US Aid to Pakistan....So hard cash vs Aid and no surprise parameters are different....but in the end if there is any conflict then these birds will fly to defeat the enemy...Post war scenarios will not hinder operations during war....



Dear,

I beg to differ. The EUM restrictions on INS Jalashwa have made many in India quite furious with its acquisition. The EUM states that it cannot be used for offensive purposes. Its an amphibious attack ship for God's sake. For further reference, read this
http://www.hindustantimes.com/CPM-fires-at-Centre-with-CAG-ammo-on-INS-Jalashwa/Article1-282462.aspx

Same kind of EUM exist for P8I, and C130J acquisition. Please don't force me to re-post the links i have already posted earlier in the thread. Go back a couple of pages and read them ... carefully, so it does not elude you.

Btw, i am pretty sure INS Jalashwa was not US aid.

Regards,
Sapper


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## deckingraj

Sapper said:


> Dear,
> 
> I beg to differ. The EUM restrictions on INS Jalashwa have made many in India quite furious with its acquisition. The EUM states that it cannot be used for offensive purposes. Its an amphibious attack ship for God's sake. For further reference, read this
> CPM fires at Centre with CAG ammo on INS Jalashwa...- Hindustan Times
> 
> Same kind of EUM exist for P8I, and C130J acquisition. Please don't force me to re-post the links i have already posted earlier in the thread. Go back a couple of pages and read them ... carefully, so it does not elude you.
> 
> Btw, i am pretty sure INS Jalashwa was not US aid.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper




Hi Sapper....Regarding the AID part i have already stated that i stand corrected....Though thanks for the informed post however in India politics works in a very different fashion...Opposition is quite strong and keep the govt on its toes....There was hell lot of hue and cry over End User Agreement that was done with US and hell lot of discussion/talk shows/aticles and finally statement in Parliament by our defence minister who clearly states what was signed as far as end user agreement is concerned....I am sure you already know but just in case would like to say that EUA is a general term....however terms and conditions vary from country to country....In the EUA that we have signed let me highlight few bullet points

- It is India who will decide where US engineers can monitor the said equipments...
- The place not necessarily be a military establishment...
- India cannot reverse engineer it nor can modify it without US approval...
- India cannot sell it to any third country without US approval...

In case you have more information then please let me know...I would love to read about it....Now let me dwell more into AID part...You got additional F-16's due to your role in WOT...I confused it with AID however it was friendly gesture from US for your role....Now the problem is that you have a dependency on US and we don't and thus the clauses will vary....I think people just picked my AID part and ignored that i was refering to power of billions of $$$$...There is a reason why atleast on paper it has been conveyed to pakistan unequivocally that these weapons cannot be used against India.... I hope i clarified to your satisfaction.....

P.S : I think i have highjacked the thread so will refrain from talking more about it....please so share if you have more information about India's EUA and i will PM you my thoughts on it...


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## Sapper

deckingraj said:


> Hi Sapper....Regarding the AID part i have already stated that i stand corrected....Though thanks for the informed post however in India politics works in a very different fashion...Opposition is quite strong and keep the govt on its toes....There was hell lot of hue and cry over End User Agreement that was done with US and hell lot of discussion/talk shows/aticles and finally statement in Parliament by our defence minister who clearly states what was signed as far as end user agreement is concerned....I am sure you already know but just in case would like to say that EUA is a general term....however terms and conditions vary from country to country....In the EUA that we have signed let me highlight few bullet points
> 
> - It is India who will decide where US engineers can monitor the said equipments...
> - The place not necessarily be a military establishment...
> - India cannot reverse engineer it nor can modify it without US approval...
> - India cannot sell it to any third country without US approval...
> 
> In case you have more information then please let me know...I would love to read about it....Now let me dwell more into AID part...You got additional F-16's due to your role in WOT...I confused it with AID however it was friendly gesture from US for your role....Now the problem is that you have a dependency on US and we don't and thus the clauses will vary....I think people just picked my AID part and ignored that i was refering to power of billions of $$$$...There is a reason why atleast on paper it has been conveyed to pakistan unequivocally that these weapons cannot be used against India.... I hope i clarified to your satisfaction.....
> 
> P.S : I think i have highjacked the thread so will refrain from talking more about it....please so share if you have more information about India's EUA and i will PM you my thoughts on it...



Dear,

It would have really helped if you had sent links for the source of your mentioned points. I have already sent 3 links to support my claim. If you have a source for complete EUM document for any of India's recent acquisition from US, it will really help.

Regards,
Sapper


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## SQ8

deckingraj said:


> Hi Sapper....Regarding the AID part i have already stated that i stand corrected....Though thanks for the informed post however in India politics works in a very different fashion...Opposition is quite strong and keep the govt on its toes....There was hell lot of hue and cry over End User Agreement that was done with US and hell lot of discussion/talk shows/aticles and finally statement in Parliament by our defence minister who clearly states what was signed as far as end user agreement is concerned....I am sure you already know but just in case would like to say that EUA is a general term....however terms and conditions vary from country to country....In the EUA that we have signed let me highlight few bullet points
> 
> - It is India who will decide where US engineers can monitor the said equipments...
> - The place not necessarily be a military establishment...
> - India cannot reverse engineer it nor can modify it without US approval...
> - India cannot sell it to any third country without US approval...
> 
> In case you have more information then please let me know...I would love to read about it....Now let me dwell more into AID part...You got additional F-16's due to your role in WOT...I confused it with AID however it was friendly gesture from US for your role....Now the problem is that you have a dependency on US and we don't and thus the clauses will vary....I think people just picked my AID part and ignored that i was refering to power of billions of $$$$...There is a reason why atleast on paper it has been conveyed to pakistan unequivocally that these weapons cannot be used against India.... I hope i clarified to your satisfaction.....
> 
> P.S : I think i have highjacked the thread so will refrain from talking more about it....please so share if you have more information about India's EUA and i will PM you my thoughts on it...



IF you are under the impression that the EUA for Pakistan is ANY different then you are sorely mistaken, If you look at the AcTual Objections raised by the Americans; such as mounting nukes on the F-16's, or the hype about modified harpoons they violate the same clauses that you have stated. 
The whole hulla baloo about the F-16's not being used for India is a congressional politik and has nothing to do with the Actual EUA which states the same as above. 
Case in point, when Pakistan sold its T-37B's from 70's it asked for congressional permission to do so. And Yes Pakistan has violated its EUA on the F-16's more than once. 
The worry in congress has less to do with the 18 aircraft being used against India then with those aircraft being equipped with nukes and then used since its a fair chance that with all that EW equipment most will get through. 
If the actual debate in congress was about the jets then they would have raised objections immediately about the jets at the moment the LOI was issued. The details of the purchases made by Pakistan go to every house and senate member and especially that Ackerman fellow. So unless they are really stupid they would have brought the house down there and then since it would be very clear that the Taliban don't possess anything in term of SAMs dangerous enough to warrant the very very advanced EW suite that comes with our jets.


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## deckingraj

santro said:


> IF you are under the impression that the EUA for Pakistan is ANY different then you are sorely mistaken,


I don't think i am wrong however would love to get corrected....The arms that we have got has no binding(even on paper) of where to use them and against whom...In other words if we use these against China or Pakistan in any war scenario then there is no legal reason for putting arms embargo on India...where as on paper the same can be put on our pakistani counterparts...Do you agree or not??? 




> If you look at the AcTual Objections raised by the Americans; such as mounting nukes on the F-16's, or the hype about modified harpoons they violate the same clauses that you have stated.


Yes because that was an alleged violation...Eye-brows were raised on it and were categorically denied by Pak...However i am not getting the point...Do you want them to raise an objection on something which has not happened(i.e. Used against India) or are you telling me that Pak can break EUM?? because i am in agreement with both...Moreover as of not US needs Pak in WOT so standards will vary....




> The whole hulla baloo about the F-16's not being used for India is a congressional politik and has nothing to do with the Actual EUA which states the same as above.
> Case in point, when Pakistan sold its T-37B's from 70's it asked for congressional permission to do so. And Yes Pakistan has violated its EUA on the F-16's more than once.
> The worry in congress has less to do with the 18 aircraft being used against India then with those aircraft being equipped with nukes and then used since its a fair chance that with all that EW equipment most will get through.
> If the actual debate in congress was about the jets then they would have raised objections immediately about the jets at the moment the LOI was issued. The details of the purchases made by Pakistan go to every house and senate member and especially that Ackerman fellow. So unless they are really stupid they would have brought the house down there and then since it would be very clear that the Taliban don't possess anything in term of SAMs dangerous enough to warrant the very very advanced EW suite that comes with our jets.



Oh...COmon Sapper...from post#1 i am saying that in case of war weapons will be used and consequences will be dealt later...Who is arguing that you have not broken EUA in the past??? Who is arguing that you don't need F-16 block 52 with Sidewinder Arms for TTP??? However just to satisfy indians it has been unequivocally said that you cannot use these against India...Do you see the difference??? 

As far as nukes is concerned then you have enough missiles in your possession that can deliver nukes to all parts of India...If this was the concern then you are right about stupidness of congressmen...However you and I both know that they are not....I am not sure if you missed it but Obama right from election days was very categorically saying that all the help that US has given to Pakistan is being used in preparing war against India and hence strategy needs to be changed...Kerry Lugar bill is a direct outcome of that mindset so honestly i am not sure what are we debating here....

Let me repeat i have no doubt in my mind that Pak will use whatever they get from US against India in case of war...How much US will do against it depends on the geo-politics of that time...However one thing is clear US is far more tough then what it was in 70's(when US-India relations were down the hill)


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## Imran Khan

i thimk its 10000000000000000000000000th time we clear to our indian friends f-16 deal is not AID AID AID lol next week some more guys join and strt aid bla bla bla

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## behram

"Freedom of Speech"------------------WAR OF TERROR.


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## SQ8

deckingraj said:


> I don't think i am wrong however would love to get corrected....The arms that we have got has no binding(even on paper) of where to use them and against whom...In other words if we use these against China or Pakistan in any war scenario then there is no legal reason for putting arms embargo on India...where as on paper the same can be put on our pakistani counterparts...Do you agree or not???
> 
> 
> 
> Yes because that was an alleged violation...Eye-brows were raised on it and were categorically denied by Pak...However i am not getting the point...Do you want them to raise an objection on something which has not happened(i.e. Used against India) or are you telling me that Pak can break EUM?? because i am in agreement with both...Moreover as of not US needs Pak in WOT so standards will vary....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh...COmon Sapper...from post#1 i am saying that in case of war weapons will be used and consequences will be dealt later...Who is arguing that you have not broken EUA in the past??? Who is arguing that you don't need F-16 block 52 with Sidewinder Arms for TTP??? However just to satisfy indians it has been unequivocally said that you cannot use these against India...Do you see the difference???
> 
> As far as nukes is concerned then you have enough missiles in your possession that can deliver nukes to all parts of India...If this was the concern then you are right about stupidness of congressmen...However you and I both know that they are not....I am not sure if you missed it but Obama right from election days was very categorically saying that all the help that US has given to Pakistan is being used in preparing war against India and hence strategy needs to be changed...Kerry Lugar bill is a direct outcome of that mindset so honestly i am not sure what are we debating here....
> 
> Let me repeat i have no doubt in my mind that Pak will use whatever they get from US against India in case of war...How much US will do against it depends on the geo-politics of that time...However one thing is clear US is far more tough then what it was in 70's(when US-India relations were down the hill)



No difference, the EUA is the same, *the verbal diarrhea isn't*.
The F-16's will be used, the EUA is the same and all the bickering in the world wont change the fact that 18 of them and 500 Amraams are about to come in Pakistan the coming few months. And unless Obama is blown up by a Pakistani we will still get them. If its satisfaction you Indians want id recommend reading the following while listening to rolling stones "I cant get no satisfaction".



_My neighbor can get the police to issue a warning to me on screwing his wife. They police can tell me that when I buy condoms they aren't going to be for my neighbors wife. And that I can do all the sluts in the world except my neighbors wife. They can take it from me in writing on paper. But ill damn make sure that when I buy the condoms they aren't full of holes. And when I am finally screwing my neighbors wife using those condoms the police cant do jack about it otherwise ill make the woman pregnant.
Hence;the police know Ive used condoms before and screwed my neighbors wife, They tell the neighbor it wont be allowed to happen but they sell me the condoms anyway with terms of use printed on the back and I make sure there are no holes. The neighbor still doesn't like me having condoms, he knows ill screw his wife and his wife alone and squeals to the police about it. But I paid for the condoms, the guy in the store will get fired if he doesn't sell them now since he bought them from the dealer anyway and they are only my size. SO...I get the condoms, I tell the police Ill only use em if a ho mounts me forcefully and in return he can issue me a warning on the back of the condom pack that says I don't do otherwise. And he assures the neighbor that I wont be allowed to use those condoms on his wife and everything is quiet, till I do the neighbors wife using those condoms since it wud be a damn shame if she got pregnant.
The neighbor will shoot me but he will have a bastard kid in his house.
_

back to the F-16's. Any news on the DRFM's..getting or not getting it???

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## Sapper

deckingraj said:


> Oh...COmon Sapper...from post#1 i am saying that in case of war weapons will be used and consequences will be dealt later...Who is arguing that you have not broken EUA in the past??? Who is arguing that you don't need F-16 block 52 with Sidewinder Arms for TTP??? However just to satisfy indians it has been unequivocally said that you cannot use these against India...Do you see the difference???



Dear,

Please ... You are using my name while replying to Santro. Please take care next time.

Again, If you have anything to "prove" your point i.e. Indian EUMA for P8-I, INS Jalashwa (USS Trenton), C130 etc, please send us the link.

Also, please keep in mind that the EUMA for Pakistani F16 is exactly the same for F16A/B and Harpoons supplied during our hush hush time with USA during 1980's. The only difference is that our media never got to know about this, so there was no hue and cry.

These are standard EUM agreements for all US FMS (foreign military sales), and exist for all sales regardless of the intended customer, like Singapore, Turkey, Israel, Denmark etc. The reason is that US policies and decisions are very documented and open to legal reviews, and they want their ***** covered if and when one of their allies turned their own manufactured weapons against them.

They want to be able to satisfy their congressmen and voters that they intended weapons sales were to be used for defense only and not to fight USA or any of its allies. Its more or less a legal footprint that you add at the bottom of a warranty card, to cover your *** when the **** hits the fan. And, btw, i totally agree with them for their precautions. They have a very just justice system, and selling arms without any restrictions would be very dangerous for any congressmen and decision maker.

Moreover, the decision to exercise the clauses of EUMA depend on political situation, so yes, Indian pressure could lead USA to exercise their right to check inventory status and look for any violations, just as it was done in Harpoon's hoax.

Once again, I urge you to provide us links to EUM agreements between India and USA. "I don't think i am wrong" is not a strong defense stance.

Regards,
Sapper


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## fatman17

*back to the F-16's. Any news on the DRFM's..getting or not getting it???*

if we r getting 500 amrams (largest single order), then whats a few DRFMs between friends - u bet we will get them.


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## hataf

fatman17 said:


> *back to the F-16's. Any news on the DRFM's..getting or not getting it???*
> 
> if we r getting 500 amrams (largest single order), then whats a few DRFMs between friends - u bet we will get them.



sorry in advance 

what is DRFMs please provide link for infoemation???


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## Mani2020

santro said:


> _My neighbor can get the police to issue a warning to me on screwing his wife. They police can tell me that when I buy condoms they aren't going to be for my neighbors wife. And that I can do all the sluts in the world except my neighbors wife. They can take it from me in writing on paper. But ill damn make sure that when I buy the condoms they aren't full of holes. And when I am finally screwing my neighbors wife using those condoms the police cant do jack about it otherwise ill make the woman pregnant.
> Hence;the police know Ive used condoms before and screwed my neighbors wife, They tell the neighbor it wont be allowed to happen but they sell me the condoms anyway with terms of use printed on the back and I make sure there are no holes. The neighbor still doesn't like me having condoms, he knows ill screw his wife and his wife alone and squeals to the police about it. But I paid for the condoms, the guy in the store will get fired if he doesn't sell them now since he bought them from the dealer anyway and they are only my size. SO...I get the condoms, I tell the police Ill only use em if a ho mounts me forcefully and in return he can issue me a warning on the back of the condom pack that says I don't do otherwise. And he assures the neighbor that I wont be allowed to use those condoms on his wife and everything is quiet, till I do the neighbors wife using those condoms since it wud be a damn shame if she got pregnant.
> The neighbor will shoot me but he will have a bastard kid in his house.
> _



You are really turning a Pak Saaf defence forum into a **** stuff
anywayz i enjoyed your example i hope after reading nobody turned on 

*Next time use decent examples lol*


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## mean_bird

hataf said:


> sorry in advance
> 
> what is DRFMs please provide link for infoemation???



DRFM or *D*igital *R*adio *F*renquency *M*emory, is a method of digitally capture incoming radio frequency signals that could be reproduced later.

It is used as a technology in jammers to block out Radio frequency signals. If its jamming your fighter plane, you cannot have a lock-on on the enemy fighter with your radar/missiles

Read more- Digital radio frequency memory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## hataf

mean_bird said:


> DRFM or *D*igital *R*adio *F*renquency *M*emory, is a method of digitally capture incoming radio frequency signals that could be reproduced later.
> 
> It is used as a technology in jammers to block out Radio frequency signals. If its jamming your fighter plane, you cannot have a lock-on on the enemy fighter with your radar/missiles
> 
> Read more- Digital radio frequency memory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




millions


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## hataf

santro said:


> _My neighbor can get the police to issue a warning to me on screwing his wife. They police can tell me that when I buy condoms they aren't going to be for my neighbors wife. And that I can do all the sluts in the world except my neighbors wife. They can take it from me in writing on paper. But ill damn make sure that when I buy the condoms they aren't full of holes. And when I am finally screwing my neighbors wife using those condoms the police cant do jack about it otherwise ill make the woman pregnant.
> Hence;the police know Ive used condoms before and screwed my neighbors wife, They tell the neighbor it wont be allowed to happen but they sell me the condoms anyway with terms of use printed on the back and I make sure there are no holes. The neighbor still doesn't like me having condoms, he knows ill screw his wife and his wife alone and squeals to the police about it. But I paid for the condoms, the guy in the store will get fired if he doesn't sell them now since he bought them from the dealer anyway and they are only my size. SO...I get the condoms, I tell the police Ill only use em if a ho mounts me forcefully and in return he can issue me a warning on the back of the condom pack that says I don't do otherwise. And he assures the neighbor that I wont be allowed to use those condoms on his wife and everything is quiet, till I do the neighbors wife using those condoms since it wud be a damn shame if she got pregnant.
> The neighbor will shoot me but he will have a bastard kid in his house.
> _



but if u r being provided with the condoms that have hole in it than...
you should have to have the ability to remove those holes orrr
you need to manufacture your own condoms


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## fanna4paf1

pakistan is wasteing his money on f-16 if he buy on the condition not use again india. we are crazy who buy with this condition
and second thing is american will hole on f-16 and air base also its so fool. why we give access to airbase.

i thing f-16 will useless for pakistan. we should go for fc-20 or refeles or griffan or with this money participate in j-xx project.

onemore thing some people think the money of f-16 52blk will pay america. nooooooooooo its our fund which america give us in war of tarrorist. woh hum per ahsan nai kar raha. our alot of people and army person shaheed just for there willness


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## SQ8

Mani2020 said:


> You are really turning a Pak Saaf defence forum into a **** stuff
> anywayz i enjoyed your example i hope after reading nobody turned on
> 
> *Next time use decent examples lol*



Its gets the attention doesn't it, And I use the examples since they are humor that even a simple simon will laugh at. I could use more civil examples but some will still be scratching their heads. And anybody who did get turned on needs to get himself into a good healthy relationship with a nice sweet girl or a dirty slutty one which ever keeps his libido from overrevving all the time.

Fatman I need a little more info on the electronic fit, searched this place and did not find sufficient info on it. Remember a post by you having some on it..help!.


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## fatman17

santro said:


> Its gets the attention doesn't it, And I use the examples since they are humor that even a simple simon will laugh at. I could use more civil examples but some will still be scratching their heads. And anybody who did get turned on needs to get himself into a good healthy relationship with a nice sweet girl or a dirty slutty one which ever keeps his libido from overrevving all the time.
> 
> *Fatman I need a little more info on the electronic fit, searched this place and did not find sufficient info on it. Remember a post by you having some on it..help!.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> wilco!


----------



## masijames

what day or the date the new F-16s are arriving in pakistan please i need update on that 
please and thank you


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## ice_man

deckingraj said:


> *Now let me dwell more into AID part...You got additional F-16's due to your role in WOT...I confused it with AID however it was friendly gesture from US for your role....*



 WE PAID for the f-16s not as a "goodwill gesture" or for our role in the WOT!!! you should get out of the indian media and listen to the world media!


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## Safron Slayer

Chill Guys,
they are providing us with AIM-120 C5 which are BVRs with more than 100km range and other missiles off course not to fight taliban air force, but to use against any adversary. These are diplomatic terms just to silence the indian and Israeli lobby. These conditions are for peace days that Pakistan will not use them as a first strike option, but if India attack us then the strings will wave off. The americans are present in the air base to train the air crew and also to make sure that chinese are not getting their hand on those toys. They will return within 2 years time. By the way the commander of the Shahbaz base is a Pakistani and a good one.


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## deckingraj

ice_man said:


> WE PAID for the f-16s not as a "goodwill gesture" or for our role in the WOT!!! you should get out of the indian media and listen to the world media!



May be you did not understood what i wrote...Yes you paid for F-16 but they were offered by US as a friendly gesture.....Now please enlighten me with world media where it says that these jets were offered to Pak irrespective of their role in wot....

Comon guys i have clarified so many times about AID part yet the jinx is still there..... the F??


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## Imran Khan

who many days on countdown yaar. i am sick now from last 4 years of wait. when the hell land fist block52 in pakistan.


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## Mani2020

deckingraj said:


> May be you did not understood what i wrote...Yes you paid for F-16 but they were offered by US as a friendly gesture.....Now please enlighten me with world media where it says that these jets were offered to Pak irrespective of their role in wot....
> 
> Comon guys i have clarified so many times about AID part yet the jinx is still there..... the F??



Lets try last time.

Put it in a way that it should be an unbiased analysis

The thing is US need us and we need them.They need us because the role we played during soviet era they want us to do the same thing but this time against talibans and we need them in order to get sophisticated technology which they possess in order to maintain a balance with India.

If u remember the 80's era u must know that at that time also US offered us their best technology including f-16's and f-18 coz they knew that we were important strategic ally for them and possibly the only ones to help them defeating the soviet union and this time they are playing same cards by offering us their technology 

But you need to know that in 80's we bought f-16's with our money and same we are doing today buying these f-16's from our pockets

My friend you try to understand one thing without being biased that US never gave us anything new and sophisticated in aid .The aid they provide us always comprises of outdated stuff which has been used to hell by USAF and USN and they have to anyway retired it and break it down so instead of breaking it down they give that dumb to us and that too not free they give us the airframes free rest of the cost of refurbishing them and their related equipment is beard by Pakistan.The same is the case with Oliver Hazard class frigate the USN had to retire it so they better thought of given that to us in order to please us You can say "Eik teer se do nishanay"

Its because you are indian and news you hear saying that Pakistan is getting this and that free from US is not the case thats only the strategy to give an excuse to your people.I know its still hard for you to believe but i'll never force you because i know its something to do with the hate we have for each other.

And as far as the AID is concerned ,check out some neutral fact sheets you will find there.We have lost more than 40 billion dollar so far on this WOT which is way more than the AID provided by US.This 40 billion dollar is only the direct one excluding the precious lives of our soldiers and civilians we lost and the foreign investment taken out from Pakistan resulted in our economic collapse is as separate loss.

This was not our war in which they have thrown us because whoever they were Taliban or whatever they never harmed us prior to that WOT ,now they are doing so because we stood up against them coz of US.

Sir their are hundred more logics but this forum demands me to be bit precise .Just come out of this Enmity shell ,They day you will, you will see us in whole different situation

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Contrary to the belief---a weapon is a weapon----new or outdated---if it brings you confidence---then it is worth it----if it is better than what you have in your inventory---then it is worth it---if it takes your abilities to the next level---it is absolutely worth it.

In order for pak to get better weapons system from the u s of a---the paks will have to change their attitude and approach---paks will have to recongnize the fact and make it understandable to the americans that it is not an equal relation and pak knows where the u s stands---.

If we didnot get what we wanted or needed---it is not americas fault---it is ours---we didnot play the americans and american media right.

After 9/11 we screwed up again---we knew first hand that not to lend or give money to the U S of A---like in the case of th F 16 in the 80's and sanctions-----.

After we gave the bases and right of way to the americans---we should have asked for expenses up front every year---a billion dollars into pak bank account every year up front and balance paidwithin 30 days with interest----here is pakistan---floating money to the u s for a whole year---thehn these bills are analyzed by the americans and then some paid and some held back----and then there is no interest paid on this one years expense----who is a bigger fool in this transaction.

Have we learnt anything here from our past experiences---not to give money to the U S up front---seems like not---seems like the mindset here is to forget the past and start all over again without remembering what happened---and when that same thing comes up again---we are in for the blame game.

Collin Powell is on record of stating to a pakistrani reporter---We have given everything that pak wanted---but the problem is that they have changed their mind many a times in the middle----when that happens---we have to go back to the congress and get another approval---it is like starting all over again.

Now as for the american aid----pakistan has been stuffed short on this war on terror---it is due to bad deal from the begining---. We are spending over a billion dollars a years out of our pockets to maintain the american war on terror---and that does not include the destruction of our national highways due to the heavy equipment traffic of the american equipment delivery trucks----the paks forgot to take that into accopunt when they struck the deal to let the stuff pass through.

It has basically been a horrible deal for pakistan---but then again pakistan is stuck between a rock and a hard place for the upteenth time----only if they had remembered and lernt from their past---then maybe maybe---?????

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> It has basically been a horrible deal for pakistan---but then again pakistan is stuck between a rock and a hard place for the upteenth time----_*only if they had remembered and lernt from their past*_---then maybe maybe---?????



Emphasis.. strict, bold and obsessive emphasis on this...The worst characteristic of our people. And its not because we are nice people.. we are just stupid.

Gleaned from another forum we are having issues with hung up bombs and malfunctioning missiles on our Falcons.


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## Luftwaffe

santro...advance apology if i misunderstood your post.

Your judgement is not finale. Because you take something not destined to your good end notes you brush it aside replace with "worst characteristic" and that is exactly the sort of judgment that jeopardize relations in broader sense among people of different thoughts. And exactly what MastanKhan says "only if they had remembered and lernt from their past", instead such people come up with their incompetence labelling other as stupid. Please mind the language member, this is a professional defence forum your might be flying high these days on this forum that does not give you free passage to call a learnt respective member as stupid, he and many orthers have reasons and analysis that brought them to conclusion of their own, on the other hand if you do not agree simply pass on once again look back 20/22 years at PAF and the with-in orginazational white collar hideous pratices took place.


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## MZUBAIR

Imran Khan said:


> who many days on countdown yaar. i am sick now from last 4 years of wait. when the hell land fist block52 in pakistan.



Expected in this week...........


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## anathema

Cross posting from MRCA thread ...

For all those who havent seen....F16 Block 60 simulator...excellent vid and gives a brief understanding of how a cockpit functions....Enjoy...its ultra cool..


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## SQ8

luftwaffe said:


> santro...advance apology if i misunderstood your post.
> 
> Your judgement is not finale. Because you take something not destined to your good end notes you brush it aside replace with "worst characteristic" and that is exactly the sort of judgment that jeopardize relations in broader sense among people of different thoughts. And exactly what MastanKhan says "only if they had remembered and lernt from their past", instead such people come up with their incompetence labelling other as stupid. Please mind the language member, this is a professional defence forum your might be flying high these days on this forum that does not give you free passage to call a learnt respective member as stupid, he and many orthers have reasons and analysis that brought them to conclusion of their own, on the other hand if you do not agree simply pass on once again look back 20/22 years at PAF and the with-in orginazational white collar hideous pratices took place.



Yeah you did misread it.. and the only time I actually fly high and is when m doing inverted circuits on my Blade 400 3d.
By stupid.. I meant the Pakistani people in general..and our collective decision making.
Nothing to do with MK..


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## Luftwaffe

apology santro..

Agree with you looking at them voting same govts time and again who ripped them off in the past. You explained it in just one simple word.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

arsalanaslam123 said:


> the AIM9X is a great leap forward to the aim9m that we will be getting. Considering that if we really are US best frined and strong ally we must have tried for AIM9X indeed.
> here is some description from not so authentic source, that is, wikipedia but trust me it is fine enough when it comes to such less detiled description of systems. i mean no one bothers to edit such harmless info....  so here you go!!
> 
> 
> 
> regards!



These newer and improved IR missiles have flare-rejection logic built in. Reducing your heat signature is huge. Still, the best answer is to not get shot at in the first place. 

The Pk (probability of kill) is high. All I can say is to look to the Falklands, where 24 missiles were fired, and 22 kills resulted. And that was the AIM-9L. Now we have the M and the X --the latter is said to be formidable -- meaning if we get these then it will provide a HUGE boost to our offensive/defensive capabilities

In the 1980's, the AMRAAM had a little brother, the ASRAAM. The ASRAAM program was killed when they realized that there was little to improve upon with the AIM-9 series.

Best answer of all - kill them first or get killed. That comes from good radar methodology and a longer-ranged missile like AMRAAM.

You could put a AIM-9 on a jeep if you wanted, and it'll work, if you can get the seeker pointed at the heat source. It's an IR missile, no radar required.

Still, for optimum results on any platform, there needs to be an indication of where the seeker is looking, the seeker field of view, or FOV. The FOV is narrow. You can't just roughly point it and shoot, it'll go ''bonkers''


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## SQ8

I think the ASRAAM saw the light of day.. and is still referred to as the AIM-132. It was not killed, but the US military wanted TVC on their next-gen dogfight missile. While the brits were comfortable with the clipped delta design fins which afford good maneuverability and allow for a longer range sue to their lift generating side effect. difference in operational demands let to parting of ways.

Most kills made in falklands were on aircraft trying to flee, since usually thee aircraft were on the edge of their combat radius and would be sitting in the drink if they tried fighting it out. Also, most of the AAF aircraft had little in the way of countermeasures.. that however does not detract from the 9L's record in the PAF's engagements with the DRAAF and VVS against targets maneuvering and usually within VERY strict ROE's.

Which reminds me, if the PAF's current fit of missiles on the falcon for CAP's has changed.. or is it still 2L's and 2P's??


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## aliyusuf

4 Block-52 F-16s to arrive on Saturday 26th June.


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## fatman17

santro said:


> I think the ASRAAM saw the light of day.. and is still referred to as the AIM-132. It was not killed, but the US military wanted TVC on their next-gen dogfight missile. While the brits were comfortable with the clipped delta design fins which afford good maneuverability and allow for a longer range sue to their lift generating side effect. difference in operational demands let to parting of ways.
> 
> Most kills made in falklands were on aircraft trying to flee, since usually thee aircraft were on the edge of their combat radius and would be sitting in the drink if they tried fighting it out. Also, most of the AAF aircraft had little in the way of countermeasures.. that however does not detract from the 9L's record in the PAF's engagements with the DRAAF and VVS against targets maneuvering and usually within VERY strict ROE's.
> 
> *Which reminds me, if the PAF's current fit of missiles on the falcon for CAP's has changed.. or is it still 2L's and 2P's??[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 2Ms and 2Ps i think! - i think all sidewinders are being upgraded to the 9M standard!


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## air marshal

*Pakistan Air Force to get latest four F-16 Block-52 aircraft*
June 22, 2010

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Forces is all set to receive four latest F-16 Block 52 jets from US at Shahbaz Airbase in this week.

US will deliver 18 F-16 jets to Pakistan and four of them will reach Shahbaz Airbase, Jacobabad this week.

Shahbaz Airbase has been converted into latest operational airbase before arrival of these jets. Eight pilots of PAF have already completed their F-16 training in US.

Sources said that US is also providing additional technical assistance to PAF regarding F-16 jets. The addition of these jets will boost the operational capabilities of the air force.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/22965/paf-to-get-four-f-16/


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## umair86

JF-17 cockpit is not much far behind F-16E/F cockpit


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## humza_313

echo 1 said:


> The only thing is that Russia would intervine. This is their aircraft (Su-27) and they have already threated to sue if China did sell these aircrafts to Pakistan. That is my only consurn. Also It has a huge radar signature. The Indian Su-30MKIs were deticted very quickly because they are so big what would we do about that? Also if we did get just the J-10 we need to do a lot of upgrades of our own to meet our needs dont you guys think.



the aircraft j-11 that china has manufactured is not the actual su-27 flanker.. it is only a copy of the 4.5th gen aircraft. it is solely manufactured in china. but the chinese government hasnt officially decided to sell this aircraft to pakistan as talks for the chengdu j-10 aircraft continue. however china has agreed to soon provide the PAF with 100 j-10's. the big advantage for this aircraft's addition is that pakistan can save the cost of upgrading the old versions of the f-16s...........!furthermore russian government hasn't posed any threat on the chinese government concerning the selling of any j-11s to pak.


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## SQ8

Fatman I also read initially that we were getting the 9m-8/9 ....now I hear its the 9-M-1/2 ....any idea which is it?


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## hataf

santro said:


> Fatman I also read initially that we were getting the 9m-8/9 ....now I hear its the 9-M-1/2 ....any idea which is it?



will you pardon to elaborate, what is it????


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## aliyusuf

santro said:


> Fatman I also read initially that we were getting the 9m-8/9 ....now I hear its the 9-M-1/2 ....any idea which is it?



I think this might clear things up ...

_In October 2005, DID covered an order for 300 AIM-9M Sidewinders by Pakistan. According to Raytheon, the October 2005 purchase represented the first sale of the AIM-9Ms to Pakistan, and a January 2007 contract to modify the stockpile to AIM-9M-9 status completed that process.

DID has also covered a $650 million weapons package request placed in June 2006, that included another 200 AIM-9M-8/9 missiles. It is in turn part of a $5.1 billion upgrade & expansion of Pakistans F-16 fleet. That request would appear to be covered by this contract, and at $107,000 per missile (compare to $172,475 for a new AIM-9X) the upgrade seems more like a purchase with possible trade-in.
_

Source : Multinational Orders for AIM-9M Sidewinder Upgrades

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## air marshal

*Pakistan to receive first four of 18 upgraded F-16s from US*
June 23, 2010

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan will receive the first four of 18 upgraded F-16s from the US this week and the multi-role combat jets will give its air force the capability to conduct night operations and use precision-guided munitions.

The four Block 52 F-16s are due to arrive at Shahbaz airbase in Jacobabad on Saturday, official sources were quoted as saying by the Dawn newspaper.

The delivery of all 18 jets ordered by Pakistan from the US will be completed by the end of this year, the sources said.

The jets will enhance Pakistan Air Force's capabilities for the ongoing war against terror, the sources were quoted as saying.

Pakistan is also conducting negotiations with the US for purchasing another 14 new F-16s, the sources said.

The Block 52 F-16s are more advanced than the F-16 A/B jets in the PAF's existing fleet.

The PAF is in the process of conducting a mid-life upgrade of its fleet of 30-year-old F-16s.

Four of the 45 old F-16s are currently being upgraded and they will be ready in a couple of months, the sources said.

Ahead of the delivery of the Block 52 F-16s, eight Pakistani pilots underwent training in the US.

The training included a course to make the transition from the F-16 A/B to the F-16 Block C/D aircraft, flight lead upgrade training and instructor pilot certification so that they eight pilots could train others to fly the new jets.

Pak to receive first four of 18 upgraded F-16s from US - Pakistan - World - The Times of India


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## Abu Zolfiqar

^^^^^^^^

the indian media title is confusing and ''off'' a bit

Yes we are receiving 4/18 aircrafts. Those are brand new aircrafts.


We happen to have approx. 42 older F-16s to undergo upgradation. Therefore this title is confusing and may throw people off.


Just wanted to clarify.

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## Imran Khan

don't post from times of india we all know there credibilty


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## BATMAN

*IAF gets feel of latest Pak fighter aircraft*



> The Indian Air Force (IAF) has got a feel of Pakistan&#8217;s most modern fighter aircraft during a multi-nation exercise in France even before the aircraft have been delivered to the Pakistani Air Force (PAF).
> 
> 
> 
> Later this week, Pakistan will get its most modern fighter aircraft when the US delivers the first four of the advanced Block 52 F 16 aircraft as part of a deal to upgrade its military.
> 
> 
> 
> However, the IAF has sparred with the Block 52 version of the fighter &#8212; which is considered to be a generation ahead of the existing F 16 fleet of the PAF &#8212; during Exercise Garuda that is currently underway at the Istres Air Base in France. The IAF, which has deployed its SU 30MKI fighters for the exercise, has conducted aerial duels and joint missions to fully gauge the capabilities of the &#8216;enemy&#8217; fighter. Pakistan is to get 18 of the Block 52 versions of the F 16 fighters under a deal with the US.


What could be the significance of such intro.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

and? ...........


what were the ''findings''


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## BATMAN

I understand those were Pakistani F-16!! is it correct?
Please... clarify!


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## aliyusuf

BATMAN said:


> *IAF gets feel of latest Pak fighter aircraft*
> 
> 
> What could be the significant of such intro.



The IAF have encountered the Block-52s before against RSAF (Singapore Air Force) and the USAF (in the 2nd Cope India at least).

What it means, I believe, is that now they have first hand info of the platform's pros & cons ... based on which they may be well into their processes of analyzing & devising strategies & tactics to counter it.

Just my 2 cents.


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## aliyusuf

Also how would they be going up against the exact Fighter Planes that are meant for Pakistan? And that too in a multi-national exercise in France?

These are more likely the same type. Which is nothing new as the IAF has gone up against the Block-52 before as I have mentioned in my previous post.


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## BATMAN

We know even in red flag SU30 was up against F-16 but i just wanted clarification of news as they quoted Pakistani F-16.


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## anathema

Its just block 52 F16, not even sure if it has the same specs as Pak F16. The report says that IAF actually took sorties in them ..to familiarise itself with the plane....Maybe thats why.


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## pshamim

BATMAN said:


> *IAF gets feel of latest Pak fighter aircraft*
> 
> 
> What could be the significance of such intro.



Please understand that this is a "FEEL GOOD" story for Indian consumption . The F-16 used by Singapor Air Force have been used in excercises between Singapore and India before. So nothing new. 

Fortunately, Pakistan has never shown or shared its flying tactics with Singapore.

Indians must say something to overcome their anxieties.

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## BATMAN

Many thanks for taking the trouble.. Sir.
It helped..


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## pshamim

BATMAN said:


> Many thanks for taking the trouble.. Sir.
> It helped..



Thanks. Comparing the RSAF with Pakistan is a joke. Many are not even aware of the strange deployment of RSAF. 70% of its F-16 Blk-52 and 100% of F-15s are based in USA as foreign detachments and used for training and not in Singapore.


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## Kompromat

pshamim said:


> Thanks. Comparing the RSAF with Pakistan is a joke. Many are not even aware of the strange deployment of RSAF. 70&#37; of its F-16 Blk-52 and 100% of F-15s are based in USA as foreign detachments and used for training and not in Singapore.



They Also come in Australia , i have met an RSAF Block 52+ Pilot a few times over here .

They come over for Training and on foreign deployment.


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## Kompromat

pshamim said:


> Please understand that this is a "FEEL GOOD" story for Indian consumption . The F-16 used by Singapor Air Force have been used in excercises between Singapore and India before. So nothing new.
> 
> Fortunately, Pakistan has never shown or shared its flying tactics with Singapore.
> 
> Indians must say something to overcome their anxieties.



I second that , the amount of experience PAF has on F-16's in Real time combat is what RSAF can just dream about.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Guys please please please----donot loose common sense of analysis----the singapore air force has blk 52's integrated long before than the pakistanis---they have been flying it for years.

For goodness sake please---don't be blind---pakistan has yet to get its first BLK 52 on its soil as of today.

PAF training is nothing out of this world---it is based on american and british training standards---.

Mind is like a parachute----open it and make it work---. Stop listening to the misleading statements and stop believing in them.

Today---pak pilots will be sitting ducks in front of RSAF pilots---.

Singapore air force pilots are also men---men who are capable to take on paf any time of the day.

PAF does not have unlimited number of tricks up their sleeves----may be a couple here a couple there----the battle front has changed in this day and age and those tricks will only be good for the first few hours of the battle---after that the enemy will come up with counter measures.

Only way the airforce can do that is to reach minimum detterance capabilities---today their capabilities are at maybe maybe 10---15&#37; of what is needed.

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## satishkumarcsc

Well the RSAF comes here every year to train in the Kalaikunda air base as they dont have enough space in their country to practice a few operational doctrines...

http://www.seas.at/aseas/2_2/pdf/ASEAS_2_2_A7.pdf

Simbex anyone?


----------



## pshamim

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Guys please please please----donot loose common sense of analysis----the singapore air force has blk 52's integrated long before than the pakistanis---they have been flying it for years.
> 
> For goodness sake please---don't be blind---pakistan has yet to get its first BLK 52 on its soil as of today.
> 
> PAF training is nothing out of this world---it is based on american and british training standards---.
> 
> Mind is like a parachute----open it and make it work---. Stop listening to the misleading statements and stop believing in them.
> 
> Today---pak pilots will be sitting ducks in front of RSAF pilots---.
> 
> Singapore air force pilots are also men---men who are capable to take on paf any time of the day.
> 
> PAF does not have unlimited number of tricks up their sleeves----may be a couple here a couple there----the battle front has changed in this day and age and those tricks will only be good for the first few hours of the battle---after that the enemy will come up with counter measures.
> 
> Only way the airforce can do that is to reach minimum detterance capabilities---today their capabilities are at maybe maybe 10---15% of what is needed.



Mastan Khan Saheb,
We are talking about the flying skills and the years of flying experience. Pakistani pilots have far more experience flying F-16s than Singapore pilots. We are not talking about blocks. I have personally witnessed how a highly experienced pilot on an older block can make a blk-52 pilot look bad. 

I disagree with your assesment of PAF pilots. Flying techniques that you so casually call tricks, employment of even one can sometime bring success in war theatre. You need to rethink and reevaluate your opinion on facts and not personal opinion.

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## LeeRain

before Firing SD-10, you need to integrate it with APG-66. Which is not going to happen


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## air marshal

Sources reveal that all is ready and set up at Jacobabad. The first Squadron in No. 5 from which is being changed from Mirage to F-16.


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## Mani2020

LeeRain said:


> before Firing SD-10, you need to integrate it with APG-66. Which is not going to happen



Lol *Sd-10 is a chinese missile* not an american one that would require Apg-66 radar,Why the hell would a Chinese missile require a American radar...you are messing up the stuff

SD-10 can be fired using klj-7 and klj-10 radar


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## hataf

Mani2020 said:


> Lol *Sd-10 is a chinese missile* not an american one that would require Apg-66 radar,Why the hell would a Chinese missile require a American radar...you are messing up the stuff
> 
> SD-10 can be fired using klj-7 and klj-10 radar



i think that they are talking about whether it could be fired from f-16 YES or NO

as there are restriction on modifying the f-16 so we cannot do it.

but

just want to know 

is it logically possible???? with out the help of USA
can Pakistani engineers made it possible. just the integration


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## Imran Khan

LeeRain said:


> before Firing SD-10, you need to integrate it with APG-66. Which is not going to happen



no need we have 500 amraams its enugh.


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## hataf

Imran Khan said:


> no need we have 500 amraams its enugh.



but for know how purpose to learn to improve the knowledge of our engineers, for reaserch and development purposes.

i think with such mind set we can never progress.....


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## indian navy

there is a secret news that f16 are coming with a bug or you can call a hidden software so that when ever USA want they can make the f16 dead meat 

can any Pakistani brother tell me what is truth


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## air marshal

*Today in History*

*June 24, 1988:* F-16 CTF completes testing of the General Electric F110-GE-100 jet engine.


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## aliyusuf

air marshal said:


> Sources reveal that all is ready and set up at Jacobabad. The first Squadron in No. 5 from which is being changed from Mirage to F-16.



Doesn't the Sqd # 5 consist of the original Mirage-IIIEP/RP/DP and belong to the "34 Fighter Wing" and operate out of Rafiqui (Shorkot)?
Or has that changed?


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## Mani2020

*Pakistan 4 f-16's will land/arrive tomorrow*

I was listening interview of retired Vice chief of air staff (sadly i forgot his name) which was coming live at 7:45 pm on Duniya news in which he said that Pakistan f-16's will arrive tomorrow


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## thunder rules

indian navy said:


> there is a secret news that f16 are coming with a bug or you can call a hidden software so that when ever USA want they can make the f16 dead meat
> 
> can any Pakistani brother tell me what is truth



sadly u have already revealed that top secret


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## MastanKhan

pshamim said:


> Mastan Khan Saheb,
> We are talking about the flying skills and the years of flying experience. Pakistani pilots have far more experience flying F-16s than Singapore pilots. We are not talking about blocks. I have personally witnessed how a highly experienced pilot on an older block can make a blk-52 pilot look bad.
> 
> I disagree with your assesment of PAF pilots. Flying techniques that you so casually call tricks, employment of even one can sometime bring success in war theatre. You need to rethink and reevaluate your opinion on facts and not personal opinion.



Hi,.

Thanks for your reply sir. My comments were based on the BLK 52---that is what the singapore air force is using in training with the indians------.

Secondly---at times of war the older BLK with its WVR's won't be any match for the blk 52 with multiple BVR's and a superior fire control radar---which will automatically come with a superior support package.

The different flying techniques that you are talking about will only be good for a few hours of combat---possibly they won't mean much against a superior plane and superior weaponery and superior high end enemy equipment.

It seems like " I will bloody the enemy's nose " concept is still prevailing in the air force mindset. The highly trained pilot cannot be anywhere and everywhere fighting the battles---.

I remember clearly that when the pak pilots were training at Hill AFB in utah in the early 80's---out of all the pilots that trained over there, there was one pak pilot better than the best of the americans or compete with them any given day---one only---rest were good---but anyone could take out the other on a given day.

So---supposedly----PAF has 10 out of this world class pilots---with their out of this world techniques---Mr pshamim----sir----even SUPERMAN and BATMAN couldnot be every where to fight their nemesis.

Flying techniques at that level are pretty much the same---the same trainers---the similiar planes---so what is different----is the individual TRICKS UP THEIR SLEEVES---.

Sir, I don't blame you for fighting for your Alma Mater---but I also don't believe in just fighting the enemy to bloody its nose.

If the enemy has planes of technical superiority---mechanical and weapons wise---has numerical superiority as well---then it purely becomes a numbers game---the lesser of the two will lose.

I am not letting down the pak pilots---it is just what I see.


----------



## hataf

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,.
> 
> Thanks for your reply sir. My comments were based on the BLK 52---that is what the singapore air force is using in training with the indians------.
> 
> Secondly---at times of war the older BLK with its WVR's won't be any match for the blk 52 with multiple BVR's and a superior fire control radar---which will automatically come with a superior support package.
> 
> The different flying techniques that you are talking about will only be good for a few hours of combat---possibly they won't mean much against a superior plane and superior weaponery and superior high end enemy equipment.
> 
> It seems like " I will bloody the enemy's nose " concept is still prevailing in the air force mindset. The highly trained pilot cannot be anywhere and everywhere fighting the battles---.
> 
> I remember clearly that when the pak pilots were training at Hill AFB in utah in the early 80's---out of all the pilots that trained over there, there was one pak pilot better than the best of the americans or compete with them any given day---one only---rest were good---but anyone could take out the other on a given day.
> 
> So---supposedly----PAF has 10 out of this world class pilots---with their out of this world techniques---Mr pshamim----sir----even SUPERMAN and BATMAN couldnot be every where to fight their nemesis.
> 
> Flying techniques at that level are pretty much the same---the same trainers---the similiar planes---so what is different----is the individual TRICKS UP THEIR SLEEVES---.
> 
> Sir, I don't blame you for fighting for your Alma Mater---but I also don't believe in just fighting the enemy to bloody its nose.
> 
> If the enemy has planes of technical superiority---mechanical and weapons wise---has numerical superiority as well---then it purely becomes a numbers game---the lesser of the two will lose.
> 
> I am not letting down the pak pilots---it is just what I see.



if technology is every thing 
and tactics and skills are noting than 

just one question why the hell

USAF

is operating a TOP GUN training institute 

i think it should be closed
and closed way before 

as USAF has the most advance weapon technologies in the world

and this is how i see


----------



## MastanKhan

hataf said:


> if technology is every thing
> and tactics and skills are noting than
> 
> just one question why the hell
> 
> USAF
> 
> is operating a TOP GUN training institute
> 
> i think it should be closed
> and closed way before
> 
> as USAF has the most advance weapon technologies in the world
> 
> and this is how i see




Hi,

I would like you to read what you wrote, again, and think what you wrote.

Whatever technology they have, they practise and train to get better with that technology---they take their skill level to the max with whatever technology they have---.

Topgun is a school where the threshold of quality and performance will keep changing and advancing with the available technology---just like any other school.

Training is training---you train with all your weapons systems----just because they are technologically superior to others doesnot mean that you stop training----and if they are technology inferior to other doesnot mean that you stop training either.

Looking at your analogy---and reversing it----would it suffice to say---that a lots of pakistani schools offer low grade education---so they must not offer any education at all.


----------



## Donatello

hataf said:


> if technology is every thing
> and tactics and skills are noting than
> 
> just one question why the hell
> 
> USAF
> 
> is operating a TOP GUN training institute
> 
> i think it should be closed
> and closed way before
> 
> as USAF has the most advance weapon technologies in the world
> 
> and this is how i see




You can google MIg 29 vs Mig 21.

Soviet pilots who were new to Mig 29 and Pilots who were veterans on Mig21, say the Mig 21 was able to out run, out perform Mig 29 by Hit and run tactics because so early in Mig 29's service, the pilots didn't know the aircraft well. 

I mean, Mig 29 was superior in every aspect yet the Mig 21 Pilots from Afghan war saw it as easy to hit and run. Dog fight, yes Mig 21 would lose. But then that's where their experience comes in and they come up with hit and run. I mean in a war it doesn't matter how you shoot the other guy. Where using a BVR missile or just your canon. 

Go read about it. It is there on internet. If i have time, i will search and post it here.


A guy with 15 years in F-16 and a guy with 5 years in F-16 don't match up.
A guy with 15 years in F-16 and a guy with 5 years in a Typhoon also don't match up.


It's not just the tactics, nor the technology, but the fact as how one can master their piece of equipment.


For simple example, you can walk into any sports store and buy the equipment that Tiger Woods uses (Yes the exact same one with the exact same dimensions). You can buy the same exact equipment as Rafael Nadal or Roger, but you won't become sporting legends just because you have better equipment. You must know how to use it.


----------



## anathema

pshamim said:


> Please understand that this is a "FEEL GOOD" story for Indian consumption . *The F-16 used by Singapor Air Force have been used in excercises between Singapore and India before. So nothing new*.
> 
> *Fortunately, Pakistan has never shown or shared its flying tactics with Singapore.*



*My Humble respects to a professional Air force fighter pilot. Rarely do we get a chance to converse with the cream of the society.*

However my thoughts on this -- (I am cross posting this from my own post in Indian defence section)

True...but tactics are developed around a machine and not the other way round. There is so much a person can learn about the machine --its strengths , its weakness , etc... Its always better to know something rather than be ignorant....

A classic example -- It is only during these kind of excercises that Americans became aware of Mig 29 ability of HMS and its 45 degree sight....they developed tactics around it --On how to avoid this scenario.....You can be rest assured that Indians too will be writing their experiences and scenarios based on what they found about this machine.

So even though Indian has done excercises with RSAF before -- It really doesnt matter since everytime you go against a aircraft which is not present in your inventory then you inadvertly learn something new about the aircraft from the *machine itself or from the pilots*. 

To further emphasize my point ----> 

*Pasting a Brief of DACT excercise conducted by USAF -- Its a bit old but a good read...Shows what goes on and what kind of findings the AF comes up with years and years of training....SHows you how important it is to have training with F16..*


"During the first training week basic fighter maneuvering, i.e. air combat within visual range, was practiced and the dogfight intensity was gradually built up during the first five days from 1v1 to 2v1, concluding in 2v2 on 26 April. Like many MiG opponents during previous DACT exercises, the Swiss underestimated the Fulcrum's qualities at close range. Like the Hornet, the MiG-29 has great low speed maneuverability, 
*which allows it to move its nose around in slow-speed fights*. 
*The aircraft's greatest advantage is the AA-11 Archer, a Russian-built infra-red guided missile, which in combination with the pilot's helmet-mounted sight makes the Fulcrum the most feared lethal weapon*. This helmet-mounted sight consists of a monocle over the left eye and sensors on helmet and in the cockpit to detect the pilot's head position. Just by looking at the target the pilot can activate a *firing solution and the thrust-vectored Archer can be launched up to 45° off the MiG's nose*. This superiority is only effective if the enemy is seen as soon as possible. 

One of the Fulcrum's disadvantages is the visibility from the cockpit. The Hornet drivers soon realized that the MiG-29 pilots had difficulties 'checking six'. Since an Archer launch includes illuminating the target until impact, the pilot has to keep his head turning towards the target, a very tiresome procedure when performed in heavy G dogfights. 

*Thirdly, the Fulcrum's cockpit avionics entail considerable workload with a lot of hands-off switches and limited HUD information*. When looking inside his cockpit, the MiG-29 pilot is not able to continuously monitor his tactical situation. These elements gave the Hornet drivers the means to tackle the MiG-29's splendid close-range superior performance and partly overcome the Archer off-boresight launch authority.

*The Fulcrum's greatest disadvantage was unveiled during the second week, when 4v4 BVR (beyond visual range) 'hops' were performed. Although the MiG-29's radar has a 120° detection capability, only a 50° cone can be used for target detection and tracking*. Clearly, this does not give the pilot a good overview of the tactical situation. Since the radar has to be manually steered towards the target's direction,
the pilot greatly depends on GCI information to locate the bogey. During lock-on all other contacts are lost and no target altitude, range or speed information is provided. 

*The Hornet's low maintenance needs - one flight hour equals about 25 man hours of maintenance work - added to the high operational status throughout the exercise. In this field the German counterparts were in for a challenge, since one MiG-29 flight hour requires no less than 80 man hours of servicing. (!!!!)*

Daily many DACT 'hops' were scheduled, averaging to about fourteen MiG-29 sorties per day, but these numbers have to be put into perspective. Each mission comprised a maximum of 25 minutes flying, which unveiled the MiG-29's Achilles heel. 

This is a further study 
Although the installation of a centerline external fuel tank (EFT) can increase the aircraft's autonomy, this configuration has numerous downsides. Since the EFT blocks the discharge route of spent ammunition casings, the tank has to be jettisoned when using the 30mm cannon. This configuration also limits the aircraft's speed to 1.5 Mach and disables the activation of speed brakes. To partly overcome these problems modifications to seven single-seaters enabled the use of two 300 gal (1150 litre) under wing pylons. This configuration however limits the Fulcrums *maneuverability to 4 G turns."


Americans learned these kind of details after years and years and numerous excercises with German , polish pilots.... IAF would be looking to do something similar...I am pretty much sure IAF would be more interested in the plane rather than the tactics employed RSAF...In between based on what i have read...RSAF uses F16 in strike role where as PAF uses them in interceptor role...so tactics are bound to be different.....*


----------



## razgriz19

hataf said:


> if technology is every thing
> and tactics and skills are noting than
> 
> just one question why the hell
> 
> USAF
> 
> is operating a TOP GUN training institute
> 
> i think it should be closed
> and closed way before
> 
> as USAF has the most advance weapon technologies in the world
> 
> and this is how i see



LOL btw *TOP GUN *is a *NAVY *Fighter Weapons School not USAF!
USAF has a USAF Weapons School and Red Flag exercises in addition to that...
btw dog fighting skills are very important. if a pilot misses its target at BVR range then he has to engage the target at close range..
and so this is why USAF arrange Red Flag exercises so they can practice their skills


----------



## razgriz19




----------



## Donatello

anathema said:


> *My Humble respects to a professional Air force fighter pilot. Rarely do we get a chance to converse with the cream of the society.*
> 
> However my thoughts on this -- (I am cross posting this from my own post in Indian defence section)
> 
> True...but tactics are developed around a machine and not the other way round. There is so much a person can learn about the machine --its strengths , its weakness , etc... Its always better to know something rather than be ignorant....
> 
> A classic example -- It is only during these kind of excercises that Americans became aware of Mig 29 ability of HMS and its 45 degree sight....they developed tactics around it --On how to avoid this scenario.....You can be rest assured that Indians too will be writing their experiences and scenarios based on what they found about this machine.
> 
> So even though Indian has done excercises with RSAF before -- It really doesnt matter since everytime you go against a aircraft which is not present in your inventory then you inadvertly learn something new about the aircraft from the *machine itself or from the pilots*.
> 
> To further emphasize my point ---->
> 
> *Pasting a Brief of DACT excercise conducted by USAF -- Its a bit old but a good read...Shows what goes on and what kind of findings the AF comes up with years and years of training....SHows you how important it is to have training with F16..*
> 
> 
> "During the first training week basic fighter maneuvering, i.e. air combat within visual range, was practiced and the dogfight intensity was gradually built up during the first five days from 1v1 to 2v1, concluding in 2v2 on 26 April. Like many MiG opponents during previous DACT exercises, the Swiss underestimated the Fulcrum's qualities at close range. Like the Hornet, the MiG-29 has great low speed maneuverability,
> *which allows it to move its nose around in slow-speed fights*.
> *The aircraft's greatest advantage is the AA-11 Archer, a Russian-built infra-red guided missile, which in combination with the pilot's helmet-mounted sight makes the Fulcrum the most feared lethal weapon*. This helmet-mounted sight consists of a monocle over the left eye and sensors on helmet and in the cockpit to detect the pilot's head position. Just by looking at the target the pilot can activate a *firing solution and the thrust-vectored Archer can be launched up to 45&#176; off the MiG's nose*. This superiority is only effective if the enemy is seen as soon as possible.
> 
> One of the Fulcrum's disadvantages is the visibility from the cockpit. The Hornet drivers soon realized that the MiG-29 pilots had difficulties 'checking six'. Since an Archer launch includes illuminating the target until impact, the pilot has to keep his head turning towards the target, a very tiresome procedure when performed in heavy G dogfights.
> 
> *Thirdly, the Fulcrum's cockpit avionics entail considerable workload with a lot of hands-off switches and limited HUD information*. When looking inside his cockpit, the MiG-29 pilot is not able to continuously monitor his tactical situation. These elements gave the Hornet drivers the means to tackle the MiG-29's splendid close-range superior performance and partly overcome the Archer off-boresight launch authority.
> 
> *The Fulcrum's greatest disadvantage was unveiled during the second week, when 4v4 BVR (beyond visual range) 'hops' were performed. Although the MiG-29's radar has a 120&#176; detection capability, only a 50&#176; cone can be used for target detection and tracking*. Clearly, this does not give the pilot a good overview of the tactical situation. Since the radar has to be manually steered towards the target's direction,
> the pilot greatly depends on GCI information to locate the bogey. During lock-on all other contacts are lost and no target altitude, range or speed information is provided.
> 
> *The Hornet's low maintenance needs - one flight hour equals about 25 man hours of maintenance work - added to the high operational status throughout the exercise. In this field the German counterparts were in for a challenge, since one MiG-29 flight hour requires no less than 80 man hours of servicing. (!!!!)*
> 
> Daily many DACT 'hops' were scheduled, averaging to about fourteen MiG-29 sorties per day, but these numbers have to be put into perspective. Each mission comprised a maximum of 25 minutes flying, which unveiled the MiG-29's Achilles heel.
> 
> This is a further study
> Although the installation of a centerline external fuel tank (EFT) can increase the aircraft's autonomy, this configuration has numerous downsides. Since the EFT blocks the discharge route of spent ammunition casings, the tank has to be jettisoned when using the 30mm cannon. This configuration also limits the aircraft's speed to 1.5 Mach and disables the activation of speed brakes. To partly overcome these problems modifications to seven single-seaters enabled the use of two 300 gal (1150 litre) under wing pylons. This configuration however limits the Fulcrums *maneuverability to 4 G turns."
> 
> 
> Americans learned these kind of details after years and years and numerous excercises with German , polish pilots.... IAF would be looking to do something similar...I am pretty much sure IAF would be more interested in the plane rather than the tactics employed RSAF...In between based on what i have read...RSAF uses F16 in strike role where as PAF uses them in interceptor role...so tactics are bound to be different.....*


*




Well, i guess there is a reason why F-16 became a legendary Multi-role aircraft.


Secondly, is it true that 1 hour of flying on MIG 29 needs 80 hours of service? I mean , man that is too much. What does IAF do in this regard?*


----------



## anathema

penumbra said:


> Well, i guess there is a reason why F-16 became a legendary *Multi-role* aircraft.
> 
> 
> Secondly, is it true that 1 hour of flying on MIG 29 needs 80 hours of service? I mean , man that is too much. What does IAF do in this regard?



The article was way back from 1990's era...Mig 29 has since then improved by leaps and bounds !!! All the current Mig 29's are being upgraded (as we speak) to the Mig 29 SMT standard.


----------



## anathema

razgriz19 said:


>



Plane looks cool with no conformal tanks ....but it loooks real ugly with the conformal tanks on them.....looks bloated and obese!!


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

There is a misconception about 4th 4.5 and 5th generation war birds. The misconeption is due to a lack of understanding or simply not wanting to learn---just being head strong.

These plane are not in-animate objects like golf cubs---when you turn them on---they are living, breathing, vibrating, throbbing, actively scanning their enemies kind of war birds. 

These machines are designed not only to kill but also find different ways to kill---look and see the enemy long before the human eye can---recognize the level of threat---the type of threat---the direction of threat---and give a choice of weapons to use against the opponent---it doesnot end there---after the human being pushes the button---these machines then guide or direct the weapon towards the threat----Tiger Woods and Nadal would sign a pact with the DEVIL if their was any chance of their equioment to be active like that.

Can you imagine Tiger Woods golf bag telling Tiger which club to use----plan the strength factor in the shot and during flight of te ball----the ball may change direction to focus on the target----it won't happen----clubs and rackets are life less pieces of metal / guts---like th F 86----but even the F 86 had a computerized gun control---.

Now as to the age of training----if given the same equipment----a 15 years trained pilot will have some advantage over the 5 years trained on same equipment----but then give one of the equipment better brains, better eyesight, and a longer punch---the 15 years olf training ill bite the dust most of the times.

The example given about the Mig 29 and Mig 21 is not really workable here in our scenario---.

Our scenario is different---the monster we are facing has 8 arms that reach beyond the range of any that we own---it has eyesight and vision far beyond what ours can see---it can stay in air hours longer than ours---it has a support package bigger, better and higher in technology than ours---it has more room to play and maneavouer than us.

It has a different strategy than ours---ours is that of engage and destroy at closer ranges---theirs is that of shoot and scoot from a distance---.

The pilot can only do so much in todays combat with a 2nds and 3rd generation machine when facing a higher gen fighter---even though pilot skills are neccessary---the better weapons system will act as an APHRODISIAC for its pilot---give it a euphoria of power and strength and extra courage and confidence over his skills.

Whereas Tiger Woods and Nadal will have to shake of the jitters in their nerves and thinks of thing other than what is happening in their personal lives----similiarly the pilots with less capable machines will be riding into the combat with uncertainity.

During the first gulf war---the U S downed some iraqi planes with the phoenix BVR missiles----the iraqi pilots in question---THEY NEVER EVEN KNEW WHEN THEY DIED----forget about knowing about the missile launch and tracking the incoming bvr---.

Pleas donot forget the MULTIPLIER EFFECT of force and intelligent decision making from one generation to the next.


----------



## Luftwaffe

Ah reminds me of Combat Commanders School (an impressive name and work)


----------



## dbc

pshamim said:


> Thanks. Comparing the RSAF with Pakistan is a joke.



Interesting comment, care to elaborate?


----------



## SBD-3

anathema said:


> The article was way back from 1990's era...Mig 29 has since then improved by *leaps and bounds *!!! All the current Mig 29's are being upgraded (as we speak) to the Mig 29 SMT standard.



?????????????? I didn't know much about it....cuz as per my perspective if it were to be able to keep pace with the challenges. Most of AF would not be thinking about replacing their fulcrums


----------



## anathema

hasnain0099 said:


> ?????????????? I didn't know much about it....cuz as per my perspective if it were to be able to keep pace with the challenges. Most of AF would not be thinking about replacing their fulcrums



Can you be more specific. Which Airforce are you talking about ?


----------



## BATMAN

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Interesting comment, care to elaborate?



Care to do some research before asking for well known facts.
Why not start with start with wiki... and than continue reading at given link:
WORLD RECORD 

can some one recognise the pilot in the cockpit??


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## Kompromat

^ They are USAF pilots


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## Hasnain2009

"No sanctions on new F-16's blk52 from USA, we will use these where ever we want to"

Air Commodore Tariq Yazdan:


----------



## razgriz19

BATMAN said:


> Care to do some research before asking for well known facts.
> Why not start with start with wiki... and than continue reading at given link:
> WORLD RECORD
> 
> can some one recognise the pilot in the cockpit??



im pretty sure the pilot on rear seat is an USAF pilot


----------



## ejaz007

*Delivery of new F-16s to Pakistan shows deepening relations*


June 24, 2010 (by Lisa Daniel & Donna Miles) - The Air Force is set to deliver the first of 18 new F-16 Fighting Falcon jet fighters to the Pakistani air force in a sign of deepening relations between the United States and Pakistan. 

Three F-16s are scheduled to arrive in Pakistan on June 26, with 15 more to be delivered later this year and next, Air Force Maj. Todd Robbins, the Pakistan country director in the office of the undersecretary of the Air Force for international affairs, said in an interview with American Forces Press Service.

"This is the most visible part of a strong and growing relationship between the two air forces that will benefit us both near-term and long-term," Robbins said.

This sale of F-16s to Pakistan renews new aircraft sales that existed between the United States and Pakistan in the 1980s, but were halted in the 1990s. Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates and other U.S. military and civilian leaders have spoken out about not repeating the mistakes of the U.S. halt in relations with Pakistan in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

In March, the United States and Pakistan held their first ministerial-level strategic dialogue here, co-chaired by Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and Pakistan Foreign Minister Makhdoom Shah Mahmood Qureshi. High-level officials from both governments participated in the dialogue, including Gates and Navy Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Gates said then that the talks included discussion of "how we can help Pakistan in dealing with the security challenges that face them, but also face us and NATO as well."

The two countries held follow-up meetings in Pakistan in early June that focused on improving military-to-military relations and security cooperation, officials said.

Relations with Pakistan improved after Sept. 11, 2001, Robbins said, "and this is just one very tangible example of the currently strong and growing relationship between the U.S. Air Force and the Pakistan air force and, in the larger context, between the United States and Pakistan."

The F-16 is a multi-role jet fighter sold to 24 countries around the world, according to its manufacturer, Lockheed Martin. The 18 being sold to Pakistan are the block 52 versions of the aircraft, Robbins said, which will give Pakistan new capabilities, including day-night, all-weather and precision-attack capabilities.

"Theyve not had [these capabilities] before, so this is a major milestone in the U.S. providing this capability, which older models [of F-16s] dont have," he said. "This will enable them to strike terrorists within their borders while helping them to avoid collateral damage. Its an increase in capabilities that are beneficial to us all."

Pakistan is paying $1.4 billion for the 18 new aircraft, in addition to $1.3 billion in upgrades to its existing F-16 fleet, which are to begin being delivered in 2012, Robbins said.

The Air Force also is training Pakistan air force pilots. The first eight recently completed training with the Arizona National Guard in Tucson, with additional training done by Lockheed Martin, Robbins said. The Air Force also is training Pakistanis in night-attack training and recently completed training for four instructors and five flight leads, he said.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article4121.html

Reactions: Like Like:
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## hataf

Hasnain2009 said:


> "No sanctions on new F-16's blk52 from USA, we will use these where ever we want to"
> 
> Air Commodore Tariq Yazdan:



if its true than

to me news of decade


----------



## GUNNER

Hasnain2009 said:


> "No sanctions on new F-16's blk52 from USA, we will use these where ever we want to"
> 
> Air Commodore Tariq Yazdan:



Good News Boys.

This came out during the media briefing held today by the PAF regarding arrival of Block-52 F-16's at Jacobabad Airbase Tommorow.

According to the PAF, there is no sanction on the new toys and can be employed by the PAF to counter any Internal and EXTERNAL threat.

Touch Down tommorow. Induction ceremony on Sunday. Media teams are bing flown to the Base. So get ready to see the new babies on screen, Sunday !


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## SBD-3

Hasnain2009 said:


> "No sanctions on new F-16's blk52 from USA, we will use these where ever we want to"
> 
> Air Commodore Tariq Yazdan:



with all due respect it is more of a political statement.....


----------



## blain2

Well the first part could be political about the sanctions, but he is 110&#37; right on the second part, which is that we will use there where ever we want to. No ifs and buts about this one.

Reactions: Like Like:
1


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## air marshal




----------



## M8R

blain2 said:


> Well the first part could be political about the sanctions, but he is 110% right on the second part, which is that we will use there where ever we want to. No ifs and buts about this one.



Sir,
Pakistanis are too paranoid.As soon as the jet lands in Pakistan its ours and we can use it where ever we want.Just as we used Sabres in bombing India.Even if US Had full acess to our F-16 they would disable it or do something stupid becasue that would raise your nuclear threshold and that is not something that US wants.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Imran Khan

Break the Silence said:


> su-30 mkis are waiting ............



jailus troll post reported


----------



## Break the Silence

Imran Khan said:


> jailus troll post reported



Hi sir... dat post was on a lighter note... I really dint want to offend anyone here!!


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## arsalan shafique

3 F-16s CoMINg TOmMorroW!!!!!
YahOOOOOO
F-16 BLK 52


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

3.....?

where did the forth one go.?


----------



## JonAsad

can any one confirm when the new f-16 arriving?
so much conflict in numbers and arrival date.

thanks


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## M8R

Saturday ie Tomorrow.


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## TOPGUN

Break the Silence said:


> su-30 mkis are waiting ............



Please don't troll using foolish statments as you just did sorry no ego booster for you here ....


----------



## pshamim

US has said in past that sanctioning the F-16s was a big mistake. Now they may be making a big show of their support by sending *US central command General David Petraeus and US air chief Norton A Schwartz *They are expected to arrive on June, 26 and will participate in the special ceremony to be held at Shahbaz Air base.

Never has US sent its highest ranking military brass for a handing over ceremony for F-16s


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## air marshal




----------



## Mani2020

pshamim said:


> US has said in past that sanctioning the F-16s was a big mistake. Now they may be making a big show of their support by sending *US central command General David Petraeus and US air chief Norton A Schwartz *They are expected to arrive on June, 26 and will participate in the special ceremony to be held at Shahbaz Air base.
> 
> Never has US sent its highest ranking military brass for a handing over ceremony for F-16s



Sir the original number to be delivered in june were 4 aircrafts but now as the news are coming it seems to be 3 aircarfts to be delivered tomorrow so were did the 4th one gone? mean wats the reason behind reducing the number from the original planned?

Also what about the options of 18 more. Is Paf exercising that option and going for total of 36 block 52 aircrafts or not?because wat we hearing are based on rumors no official source and if there is any there are lot of other complications


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## M8R

PAF is negotiating for 14 more new F16 Block 52 as well as 14 EDA F16 upgraded to block 40 per pakdef.info sources.Also Pentagon is trying to convince USN to release 7 F-16's which will be given free of cost to Pakistan.


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## Luftwaffe

Are you sure about F-15? because this does not make sense PAF has mastered F-16s would make sense about blk 60, but F-15??


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## M8R

Sorry that was a type - F16 EDA not F15 EDA.


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## dbc

BATMAN said:


> Care to do some research before asking for well known facts.
> Why not start with start with wiki... and than continue reading at given link:
> WORLD RECORD



What does a 16 aircraft loop record set in 1958 have to do with the below statement?



pshamim said:


> Thanks. Comparing the RSAF with Pakistan is a joke.


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## mehru

*3 F-16 fighter planes to be inducted in PAF fleet Tomorrow*

*Three F-16 Block 52 C fighter jets would be inducted in the Pakistan Air Force flee tomorrow (Saturday) for ensuring the country's defense and security. US would formally hand over these jets at a ceremony to be held on Sunday.*
Defense authorities on Friday told that in the first phase US would hand over 3 F-16 Block C fighter jets to Pakistan that would be equipped with latest weapons and technology and a formal handing over ceremony in this regard would be held on Sunday.
Pakistani pilots would fly the three F-16 fighter jets from America. In the second phase Five F-16 Block 52 C fighter jets would be handed over to Pakistan in one and a half month. While overall a total of 18 fighter jets would be inducted in the PAF fleet by this year end.
*The officials told that talks are on with US authorities for another 14 F16 Block 52 C jets and we are optimistic that US would provide us with these jets. After the induction of 18 F-16 Block C Jets the PAF fleet of F-16s would swell to 63.*
The officials told that the fighter jets are equipped with modern technology and 8 Pakistani pilots have gotten special training from US to fly these planes. The planes are also equipped with BVR missile, electronic jammers and laser guided bombs.
The officials further told that PAF would fulfill its defense needs to ensure an impregnable defense of the country and fight against terrorism and country's defense capability would be substantially enhanced with the induction of these jets.
*Defence sources also informed that these fighter planes will be kept at Shahbaz Airbase, which has been turned into a formal operation base, and Pakistan will utilize these planes for its operational objectives.*
3 F-16 fighter planes to be inducted in PAF fleet Tomorrow | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## Abu Zolfiqar

I'll also join the bandwagon.

where the *hell* is the 4th aircraft?


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## BATMAN

pshamim said:


> US has said in past that sanctioning the F-16s was a big mistake.


Sir, we can imagine that 
it turned out ot be a blessing for Pakistan and China and for all those states, who will buy (in future) JF-17 thunders as an alternate to western a/c.

I have one more question; why not LM build F-16 with DSI.. same like J-10B!


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## air marshal



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## BATMAN

razgriz19 said:


> im pretty sure the pilot on rear seat is an USAF pilot



Why is he not wearing gloves?
i wonder if had washed his hands before touching this baby. 

BTW... I remember reading some news yesterday, which mentioned.... next month we'll be getting 4MLUs!!
Is any one in position to confirm this?


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## M8R

Chill BATMAN .No Pilot is gonna get hepatitis from Air Craft Cockpit.

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## MastanKhan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> Interesting comment, care to elaborate?



Hi,

You need to understand where Pshamim is coming from. PAF has been operating this plane since the 80's---a lot of their training has been with the americans, with some other nations but then paf has its own game plan and strategy regarding air warfare. 

It has its own techniques learnt and manufactured----when you are an air force with your back against the wall since your existence----you develop and create your own game plan----when every flight out bound is a possible one way ticket against a superior enemy---you are forced to learn and evolve tactics to combat the adversary with higher numbers and better technology.

Secondly--paf has a lot more combat experience than RSAF----even the indian are lagging way behind in real time combat.

As you very well know that today's warfare and today's battlefield is totally different than my dad's and grand dads---it is not dependant on a single pilot to turn the tables per say----but it is a team effort---superior electronics---superior weaponery---superior support on the ground and more so in the air in the shape and form of awacs and last but not the least---high long range bvr's and off bore sight A to A missiles.

If it was both sides fighting with F 16 C/D's ---I would say that the paf will come out ahead---but with the BLK 52 aircraft, its radar and fire control system, its amraam's---it is not as simple---when your weapons system and equipmnent is doing most of the talking--that create uncertainity---.

I think that instead of arguing about who is right or wrong---it will truthfully come down to the first day of the actual warfare---when the leather hits the asphalt. Till then we can only train train and create scenarios and counter scenarios and then train some more.

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## iPhone

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I'll also join the bandwagon.
> 
> where the *hell* is the 4th aircraft?



DAWN is reporting four aircrafts are indeed coming.


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## dbc

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You need to understand where Pshamim is coming from. PAF has been operating this plane since the 80's---a lot of their training has been with the americans, with some other nations but then paf has its own game plan and strategy regarding air warfare.
> 
> It has its own techniques learnt and manufactured----when you are an air force with your back against the wall since your existence----you develop and create your own game plan----when every flight out bound is a possible one way ticket against a superior enemy---you are forced to learn and evolve tactics to combat the adversary with higher numbers and better technology.
> 
> Secondly--paf has a lot more combat experience than RSAF----even the indian are lagging way behind in real time combat.
> 
> As you very well know that today's warfare and today's battlefield is totally different than my dad's and grand dads---it is not dependant on a single pilot to turn the tables per say----but it is a team effort---superior electronics---superior weaponery---superior support on the ground and more so in the air in the shape and form of awacs and last but not the least---high long range bvr's and off bore sight A to A missiles.
> 
> If it was both sides fighting with F 16 C/D's ---I would say that the paf will come out ahead---but with the BLK 52 aircraft, its radar and fire control system, its amraam's---it is not as simple---when your weapons system and equipmnent is doing most of the talking--that create uncertainity---.
> 
> I think that instead of arguing about who is right or wrong---it will truthfully come down to the first day of the actual warfare---when the leather hits the asphalt. Till then we can only train train and create scenarios and counter scenarios and then train some more.



RSAF has a reputation of being highly trained, motivated, disciplined and well equipped. I was curious to learn why Pshamim dismissed them so casually. All things considered, I beleive PAF is just entering a new era of learning with the delivery of Erieye, AMRAAM's and Block 52's. I guess the Red Flag exercise this year will allow the PAF to assess the gap it has to bridge to become a potent force once again.

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## pshamim

I have good reasons for that opinion. I will explain in in detail once I reach home tonight. Have been away.


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## air marshal

*U.S. made F-16's headed to Pakistan*
June 26, 2010

ISLAMABAD: Brand new, U.S. manufactured, F-16 fighter planes are set to fly in to Pakistan on Saturday for the first time since new F-16s were bought by the country in the early 1980s, in an example of a relationship that has hovered between close proximity to periods of cooling off.

On Saturday, three F-16 fighter planes will arrive in Pakistan as part of an eventual delivery of 18 new F-16 fighter planes that Pakistan ordered from the U.S. in a deal worth US$1.4 billion, according to Pakistan's air force officials and U.S. officials.

But the history of the supply of F-16s to Pakistan has been troubled. After supplying 40 new F-16 fighter planes to Pakistan in the 1980s to boost Islamabad as a frontline state against the occupation of Afghanistan by the former Soviet Union, the U.S. slapped military and economic sanctions against Pakistan in 1990 to punish Islamabad for attempting to manufacture nuclear bombs.

Those sanctions failed to stop Pakistan from continuing with its nuclear weapons development program and carrying out its first set of nuclear tests in 1998.

However, relations between Pakistan and the U.S. were revived after the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks forced the two countries to join hands against al Qaeda and the Taliban.

In the past decade, Pakistan has been supplied with used F-16 fighter planes by the U.S., to help the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) carry out its operations against Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, but Saturday's arrival of the F-16s will be the first time that new planes of this particular type will be inducted since the early 1980s.

"This is a milestone event. We are very pleased to finally see the US share some of its modern age technology with Pakistan," said a PAF official who spoke to CBS News on condition of anonymity.

But analysts warned that many Pakistanis still remain skeptical of ties with the U.S. in view of the memories of past sanctions.

"You travel around this country and you realize how emotional this issue continues to be," Anjum Rahman, a TV show host for Pakistan's Express TV channel told CBS News. "People still see the suspension of future F-16 deliveries from 1990 onwards "as an era that brings back unfortunate memories."

On the streets of Islamabad, Pakistan's capital city, there are many who remember the Pak-U.S. history of ties in relation to the F-16s.

"In the 1980s, images of the F-16 were painted on so many buses and trucks as Pakistan celebrated the arrival of the world's most modern jet fighter. Even if the Americans now give us new planes, how will anyone erase the memories of an entire nation?" asked Barkat Khan, an Islamabad school teacher.

While PAF officials are preparing to receive delivery of the new planes enthusiastically, their ability to tackle skepticism on the streets is limited. "We can only perform the best possible service but we can't tell people, how and what to think," concluded the PAF official.

U.S.-Made F-16's Headed to Pakistan - World Watch - CBS News


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## shadow-point

guys was anyone able to catch the paf documentry just showed on dunya tv a while ago its very cool latest by paf????members plz trying upload it thanks


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## pshamim

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> RSAF has a reputation of being highly trained, motivated, disciplined and well equipped. I was curious to learn why Pshamim dismissed them so casually. All things considered, I beleive PAF is just entering a new era of learning with the delivery of Erieye, AMRAAM's and Block 52's. I guess the Red Flag exercise this year will allow the PAF to assess the gap it has to bridge to become a potent force once again.



Yes they are highly trained and motivated but most of their training is not combat related as you may think. My opinions are based more on observations, conversations, and popular beliefs about RSAF.

I hate to divulge information that may be misconstrued. I may not be as knowledgeable as every one here is but have been able to observe and learn a little extra due my background in defense and defense industry . 

Some friends are aware of my previous employment with General Dynamics Corporation. Besides working on Peace-gate project, I also worked on some other Peace- Programs in few other countries. One of them was a short stint on Peace Carvin-1 in Singapore also.

Singapore has a very small airspace to operate in. Total area of operation is not more than 300 square miles, smaller than the size of Karachi or Bombay. The four airbases occupy one half of the country. Threat perception is nil. So there has always been a fear of mid-air collisions and accidents. Most of RSAF training is safety oriented and ACMI based which helps the aircrafts to remain separated and not collide. This is all instrument based with help from ground. Pilot alone cannot be successful unless help from ground is received. The In Plane Lead, Pure and Lag Pursuit training, which is a norm for other Air Forces including Pakistan, takes place only in USA which everyone knows will be useless in Singapore. 
The ACMI is priority number one which many in RSAF pilot corps call BORAX, a term used for boring and continuous. So ACMI is the most important training method for RSAF while the ACM and In Plane Lead, Pure and Lag Pursuit training is the priority number one for PAF in addition to ACMI. 
RSAF cannot have more than few aircrafts in the air at the same time because of tiny air space. Only when it flies large formations, it may have 20-30 aircrafts in the air at the same time. It has never fired a live missile,LGBs or a dumb bomb in its 30 year old history even though it has large number of Aim-120 and Aim-9X along with others in the inventory. It cannot fire one in Singapore because there is a better than 80&#37; chance that it might hit one of its own than a Bandit. I also heard the term "Fangs Sunk in Floorboard" meaning RSAF planes are more vulnerable even when they have the enemy in sight. I will say one thing. RSAF has the best ACMI trained pilots in the world . But that is it.

RSAF has been on a buying spree because it is asked to do so by influential and it has to oblige. It has reached a point that 2/3rd of its latest aircrafts are based thousand of miles away in USA, France, Malaysia, Thailand, and Brunei . Singapore has been treated as a cash cow. It has been arming itself to defend against enemies which may be non-existent but because what the Papa says, it has to oblige..

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## air marshal

Congrats to all.


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## Mani2020

*F-16's have landed in PAKISTAN congrats[*B][/B]

Updated at: 1521 PST, Saturday, June 26, 2010


ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force has received first batch of 18 new F-16 fighting falcon jet fighters from United States on Saturday.

Three F-16s arrived at Shahbaz Airbase in Jacobabad on Saturday morning.

The sale of F-16s to Pakistan renews new aircraft sales that existed between the United States and Pakistan in the 1980s, but were halted in the 1990s. The F-16 is a multi role jet fighter sold to 24 countries around the world.

The US Air Force also is training Pakistan Air Force pilots. The first eight recently completed training with the Arizona National Guard in Tucson.

The Air Force also training Pakistanis in night-attack training and recently completed training to four instructors and five flight leads.

*Source*:http://www.geo.tv/6-26-2010/67390.htm


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## air marshal

*PAF F-16 Block-52 fighter jets landed in Pakistan*
June 26, 2010

ISLAMABAD: The United States delivered the first batch of Block-52 F-16 Fighting Falcon jets to Pakistan on Saturday.

The first batch of three jets customised to the needs of the Pakistan Air Force, have landed in Pakistan.

During a meeting at the Parliament House, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman informed Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani about the aircraft delivery.

He said the current fleet of F-16 aircraft is being used in the fight against militancy in the countrys tribal areas.

Pakistan is paying $1.4 billion for the jets and an additional $1.3 billion for the up gradation of its existing fleet.

The jets are due to be delivered at the Shahbaz Air Base in Jacobabad today in presence of the United States Air Force Chief who has arrived in Islamabad.

F-16 jets land in Pakistan &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## air marshal




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## air marshal




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## owais.usmani

*Extra High Resolution:*

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## Imran Khan

heeeeeeeeeeey guys i see clip of landing blk52 in pakistan noe on ajj tv damn no cft was loaded.


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## Stealth

Imran Khan said:


> heeeeeeeeeeey guys i see clip of landing blk52 in pakistan noe on ajj tv damn no cft was loaded.



again another yakeee of America as usual!

mujhe milayna zara jinhonay deal ke the may litar maaroon unko without CFT Block 52 loOks "Khasi" lol


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## shadow-point

*hi guys sorry to ruin the fun but i really want to swear at americans and on ourselves as well. americans sent 3 planes and these f***ing americans held back the original plan 2 planes are bl-52-D and one is the old one F-16 B upgraded all of em are bugged so hopefully we f***ing americans slaves use these spies carefully....................ahhhhhhhhhhhh........forgive my language but just heart broken................what a shame*


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## Imran Khan

Stealth said:


> again another yakeee of America as usual!
> 
> mujhe milayna zara jinhonay deal ke the may litar maaroon unko without CFT Block 52 loOks "Khasi" lol



yaar contract main to likha tha wesy bhi we have no refuler for them at least CFT can help but we got without. ya phir wo ship par a rahy hai amraams ke sath?


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## DANGER-ZONE

*PUNKED....!*

No CFTs


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## Imran Khan

danger-zone said:


> *PUNKED....!*
> 
> No CFTs



lagta hai chutya bana gya USA phir se hum ko ab to pesy bhi de diye ab lena pary ga

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## TOPGUN

CFT's are coming with package relax people although i must agree i would like to see them on our birds as well.

---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 AM ----------




Imran Khan said:


> lagta hai chutya bana gya USA phir se hum ko ab to pesy bhi de diye ab lena pary ga



Chutya ? hahahahaha

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## SEAL

Isse liye Video be nahi dikha rahy the 30sec ka clip aur khatam.


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## Imran Khan

chalo ye dekh ker dil behla lo 





hehehehehhe ab kya hoot yaar


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## air marshal



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## hataf

Imran Khan said:


> chalo ye dekh ker dil behla lo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hehehehehhe ab kya hoot yaar



why are,nt we receiving 4 of them

and where is block 52/c

it does not seem right


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## Imran Khan

hataf said:


> why are,nt we receiving 4 of them
> 
> and where is block 52/c
> 
> it does not seem right



i have same qes they send 2 block52 and 1 upgraded block15


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## Mani2020

Imran Khan said:


> i have same qes they send 2 block52 and 1 upgraded block15



Is this just me or every is feeling "DAAL ma kuch kala ha " 
Firstly they reduced the original number to 3 and now as you people are saying that among these three one is the upgraded one,the f-16 which was at Lockheed Martin. 
From somewhere i can smell a hint of another embargo 

Lol jo kuch yanks se nikalwana ha unke afghanistan se janay se pahle pahle nikalwa lou warna wohi 80's story


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## Imran Khan

le lo ab block52 i miss sir murad . damn USA ka bharosa her time mehna parta hai


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## Stealth

hahahha GEO NEWS EXPRESS NEWS DUNYA NEWS SAMA NEWS


*Pakistan ko aaj America nay JADEED TAREEN laraka tyaray fraham kardiye hain jo kise b sorat-ehaal say nimatnay kiliye kaam ayeengay* (offcourse bachoon ko dekhnaya kiliye tu nahe kareeday lol)

*isay raath kay andheeray may dekhnay ke salahiyat bhi majood hey *(hahahhahaha same like "Pakistan fauj ko America nay raath may dekhnay walay chashmay fraham kiye hain hahahha" talking about NVG)

*Pakistan ko milnay 3 JADEED TAREEN laraka tyaray milnay say Pakistan Airforce mazboot hogaye hey* (pehlay jesay baray koi chutya Airforce the hamare)

*Pakistan ko America nay mazeed 14 F16 denay ke peeshkash ki hey jisay zahir hota hey kay Pakistan aur America kay talokaat may mazeed behtri ayege* (AHHAHAHAHHAHAH dhakan kaheen kay 3 F16 milnay say hamaray talookaat behtar hojayeengay woh dhakan jo daily 20 Pakistani drone hamloon may maarta hey aur 4000 Army shaheed and more thn 40,000 innocent people marnay kay baad jo before 9/11 nothing like that with pakistan 3 F16 say talokaat behtar hojayeengay chutya anchor and script maker)

*Pakistan ko milnay walay jadeed tareen laraka tyaray HAWA SAY ZAMEEN AUR HAWA SAY HAWA MAY MAARK karnay walay missile say laees hain* (HAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHA tu kya poranay F16 hawa may pani pheenktay rahay hain hahahhaha)

-------------------------------------------------------

Pakistan ko milnay walay 3 F16 laraka tyaray pore dunay kay Airforce ****** eek karkay rakhdeengay hahahhahahahahhahahah 3 F16 na hogayee koi Alien Predator hogaye hahhaha

man our news hahahhahah


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## M8R

LOL Stealth our media sucks at Defence matters.They should hire few people from this forums.


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## bc040400065

kisne kaha tha f16 buy karo. lag jaye ga pata agay agay dekhu huta ha kya humaray sath. we are foolish people on earth. if anyone expects any sincere friendship kind of thing from US i must say he should better have his brain checked.


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## Imran Khan

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;956580 said:


> LOL Stealth our media sucks at Defence matters.They should hire few people from this forums.



if ajj tv take me i will write the defence news for them but i don't think they will.


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## Imran Khan

yaar ye CFT bilall ganj se nhi banwa sakty hum log?.


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## hataf

Imran Khan said:


> yaar ye CFT bilall ganj se nhi banwa sakty hum log?.



idea of the century 

and i think the afghan war is over 

we will need to buy spare parts of these f16 from there


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## air marshal




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## DANGER-ZONE

i am damn sure PAF would have rejected CFTs because of extra drag.
But F-16 Block 52 SUCKS without CFTs it looks normal F-16.


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## Imran Khan

same last on is MLU guys we again fooled or may be 2 more on the way.tommorw we will see whats is true.


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## kursed

Here is an APP picture of the three aircrafts. The single-seater is carrying the serial-number: 902. Which is a Pakistani F16 C Block 52.







Here is a higher res pic of the same aircraft.

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## Imran Khan

danger-zone said:


> i am damn sure PAF would have rejected CFTs because of extra drag.
> But F-16 Block 52 SUCKS without CFTs it looks normal F-16.



PAF reject ??????// man its mean paf is !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! . no air force ever reject a extra punch jani.


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## M8R

danger-zone said:


> i am damn sure PAF would have rejected CFTs because of extra drag.
> But F-16 Block 52 SUCKS without CFTs it looks normal F-16.


CFT's are coming dude - Read the interview of PAf pilot posted in other thread
-


Q. The publicly-available videos and photographs recently released by Lockheed Martin show the first PAF Block 52 C/Ds without conformal fuel tanks (CFTs). Can you confirm whether the PAF aircraft are coming with CFTs?
Yes. All 18 Block 52s will be fitted with CFTs when they are released to the PAF, which is expected to be in June this year. The CFTs are detachable add-ons and it is not necessary for the PAF to always fly with them. The CFTs can be attached and detached to suit PAFs needs at any given time.


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## M8R

Q. What is a PAF F-16 pilot doing in Turkey?
The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and the Turkish Air Force (TuAF) have a long-standing pilot exchange programme, which goes back a couple of decades under which, at any given time, two PAF pilots are in Turkey and two TuAF pilots are in Pakistan. Since the PAF and the TuAF share two common aircraft &#8211; the T-37 trainer and the F-16 &#8211; both countries exchange pilots on the each of these aircraft. So right now we have one PAF pilot flying TuAF T-37s and another PAF pilot flying TuAF F-16s in Turkey and one TuAF pilot flying PAF T-37s and one Tu-AF pilot flying PAF F-16s in Pakistan.

Q. How long is the duration of the secondment?
The average secondment is 2 years, but it could be less or more depending on various factors.

Q. What is the basis for PAF&#8217;s selection of a pilot for secondment to the TuAF F-16 squadrons?
The selection is done by the PAF and is based purely on merit. They start with your academy reports and the final report is given by your squadron commander. The TuAF requirement is that the pilot must have a minimum of 250 hours on the F-16 before joining the TuAF F-16 squadrons.

Q. What is the PAF criterion for selecting a pilot for its F-16 squadrons?
A pilot must have an outstanding record and a minimum of 500 hours on either the F-7 or the Mirages or both aircraft. Additionally, he must have the right aptitude and the ability to learn and apply his learning. The F-16 is not a simple aircraft to fly. Usually, most pilots go from the F-7 to the Mirages before coming to the F-16. This route washes out the weaker pilots.

Q. Which route did you follow?
I went straight to the F-16 after logging 450 hours on the F-7P.

Q. Which PAF F-16 squadron were you flying with before secondment to the TuAF?
No. 9 Squadron &#8220;Griffins.&#8221;

Q. What squadrons and what airbases do you fly out of in Turkey?
I have flown from different airbases with different squadrons on different F-16 types and this depends on the mission training that is being undertaken at a given time. I have served at two air bases &#8211; Mirzofen and Balekesir.

Q. What F-16 Blocks have you flown in Turkey?
I have flown all three TuAF F-16 Blocks - the Blocks 30, 40 and 50. I am the second PAF exchange pilot to have flown the TuAF Block 50 as previously the Turks did not give PAF pilots access to the Block 50.

Q. Why was that?
US restrictions. However, once the sanctions were lifted and talks began to purchase Block 52s for the PAF, it no longer remained an issue because we would be flying a more advanced version than the Turks. That&#8217;s when the US allowed the Turks to give us access to the Block 50. The Turks have been very cooperative with the PAF.

Q. What kind of mission training did you get on the TuAF F-16s?
We are trained for all types of missions since most TuAF F-16s squadrons are multi-role. However, I was primarily trained for air-to-air combat in the air defence role.

Q. Any BVR training?
Yes.

Q. Which BVR missile?
The AIM-120 AMRAAM &#8220;Charlie&#8221;.

Q. What are the differences in training methodologies between the PAF and TuAF?
There are substantial differences. TuAF follows the US and NATO training methodologies where everything is written down and you have to follow set procedures. This is not necessarily bad because these procedures are based on experience. They learnt this after their experience in air-to-air combat in Vietnam. However, the downside is that you tend to get bogged down into following procedures and you become predictable. In the PAF, pilots are given more freedom to come up with their own solutions. Our training approach is more similar to the Israelis than NATO. We do more &#8220;seat of the pants&#8221; type of flying and are required to be more creative.

Q. Have you taken part in any Anatolian Eagle exercise?
PAF has been participating in the annual Anatolian Eagle exercises since 2004. I have participated in three Anatolian Eagles &#8211; one national and two international.

Q. What is the difference between national and international?
TuAF conducts annual Anatolian Eagle exercises - one version is national, for TuAF only and the other is international, with friendly air forces. TuAF has honoured the PAF by also letting its pilots fly in the national Anatolian Eagle exercises under Turkish command and wearing Turkish flags and badges. This is a unique honour given only to PAF pilots. The exchange pilots also get to fly TuAF F-16s in the Anatolian Eagle international exercises. So you could have 6 visiting PAF pilots flying their own PAF F-16s and the one PAF exchange pilot flying with the Turks in a TuAF F-16.

Q. Any memorable experiences that you would like to share?
On one occasion &#8211; in one of the international Anatolian Eagles - PAF pilots were pitted against RAF Typhoons, a formidable aircraft. There were three set-ups and in all three, we shot down the Typhoons. The RAF pilots were shocked.

Q. Any particular reason for your success?
NATO pilots are not that proficient in close-in air-to-air combat. They are trained for BVR engagements and their tactics are based on BVR engagements. These were close-in air combat exercises and we had the upper hand because close-in air combat is drilled into every PAF pilot and this is something we are very good at.

Q. Israel has also participated in some Anatolian Eagles. Any opportunity to fly with or against the Israelis?
Turkey ensures that the Israeli AF and the PAF are kept as far apart from each other as possible and this has more to do with the Israeli AF&#8217;s reluctance to be part of any military exercise involving the PAF than vice versa. The Israelis have told the Turks that they don&#8217;t want any Pakistani on or near a base in which the Israelis are stationed.

Q. What are the Isrealis afraid of?
What they fear most is that we might learn about their tactics, especially BVR countermeasure tactics, which they have mastered.

Q. I heard a rumour that the TuAF once gave PAF pilots the opportunity to fly with and against the Israelis in TuAF F-16s pretending to be Turkish pilots &#8211; even letting them sit in the Turkish-Israeli ACMI de-briefs?
No comments.

Q. Are the Turks interested in the JF-17?
They are intrigued by it and very happy with what Pakistan has been able to achieve.

Q. Any chance of them placing orders?
There is no indication of that. They are not in the same situation as us. Being NATO members, they have many choices. They are producing the F-16, so while they are happy for Pakistan, I don&#8217;t think they will be purchasing the JF-17 as their requirements are already fulfilled by the F-16.

Q. What about replacing their ageing F-5?
They will probably replace the F-5s with F-16s and go for the F-35 as their hi-tech fighter.

Q. What&#8217;s after Turkey?
I will transfer to PAF Shahbaz, Jacobabad this summer for conversion to the Block 52s.

Q. Who will do the conversion training?
The conversion will be done by PAF pilots who are currently undergoing conversion training in the USA and will be returning to Pakistan in a few months time.

Q. Do you think you will have an edge over other PAF pilots are being picked from local squadrons?
Not only will I have an edge, I will be responsible for assisting the Block 52 instructors based on my experience with the Block 50.

Q. The publicly-available videos and photographs recently released by Lockheed Martin show the first PAF Block 52 C/Ds without conformal fuel tanks (CFTs). Can you confirm whether the PAF aircraft are coming with CFTs?
Yes. All 18 Block 52s will be fitted with CFTs when they are released to the PAF, which is expected to be in June this year. The CFTs are detachable &#8220;add-ons&#8221; and it is not necessary for the PAF to always fly with them. The CFTs can be attached and detached to suit PAF&#8217;s needs at any given time.

Q. One of the stories going around is that the Block 52s are coming with strings attached: (i) the PAF can only base them in one airbase, Jacobabad; (ii) they cannot be used for offensive operations beyond Pakistan&#8217;s borders; (iii) some sort of monitoring mechanisms will be put in place to monitor the location of each aircraft and (iv) PAF cannot take them outside Pakistan without the permission of the US. Are these correct?
To some extent, yes. However, it is important to understand the background to these conditions.
When the PAF asked for the Block 52, the initial US reaction was &#8220;no&#8221;. Their main concern was that if this potent technology could be released to Pakistan, sooner or later, it would end up in the hands of the Chinese who would reverse engineer it. It was the PAF that offered a solution. We could place the Block 52s in a separate airbase where the Chinese would have no access. This meant an airbase that had no Chinese aircraft. We could not base them in Sargodha because we would not deny the Chinese access to our most important airbase. Jacobabad was a forward base which had been revamped by the Americans for Operation Enduring Freedom, including a new first-class runway, so it was the first choice. The US agreed to this proposal provided that it would have the right to monitor the aircraft.

To recall an interesting little story: soon after the first F-16s were delivered to Pakistan in the mid-80s, the PLAAF Chief visited Sargodha. The Americans were there as well. As a gesture of courtesy, the PAF showed the PLAAF Chief one of the F-16s and let him sit in the cockpit. Some US technicians were there looking on. As soon as the PLAAF Chief sat in the F-16 cockpit, the first thing he did was to start measuring the HUD with his fingers, you know, when you extend your little finger and thumb to measure something? This worried the Americans.

Q. What are the monitoring mechanisms? I have heard they will have US personnel stationed at Jacobabad.
The US personnel stationed at Jacobabad will be transitional. They will be training PAF aircrew on the maintenance of the Block 52. Most of these US personnel will be from Lockheed Martin. The US does not need to have personnel physically present in Jacobabad to monitor the Block 52s.

Q. Could you elaborate?
They have ways of keeping an eye on the Block 52s without being personally present. The main concern is the transfer of cutting-edge technology &#8211; the avionics and radar, the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS) the Sniper pod. They have put digital seals all the sensitive technologies, which can only be opened via a code, which only they know. If there is a malfunction or these parts need to be serviced, they will be taken out of the Block 52s and shipped back to the US for repairs/servicing. If we try to pry open these systems without the codes, inbuilt alarms will be relayed to the Americans, which will be a breach of the contract.

Q. Will the Americans be able to track the locations of the Block 52s through some sort of tracking devices hidden inside the aircraft?
If there are tracking devices then they will be inside the sealed systems, like the avionics suites or the sniper pods because we will not have the ability to look inside. If their Predator and Reaper drones are transmitting their GPS locations via satellite so can a Block 52 F-16.

Even though Turkey produces the F-16, there are some components that are manufactured in the US and only come to Turkey for the final assembly. In one incident, a Turkish Block 50 crashed and the pilot was killed. They salvaged the wreckage and laid it out in hanger and started putting together the pieces to find out the cause. They found a piece of sealed equipment which had cracked open and inside they found some device that looked like a bug. Upon inquiry, it turned out to be a tracking device.

Q. Doesn&#8217;t that worry the PAF?
I&#8217;m sure it does. However, the PAF considers the Block 52 a &#8220;bonus&#8221; aircraft. We are not depending on it for our entire air defence. It is a temporary force multiplier until we have enough squadrons of JF-17s and FC-20s. The opportunity to know what the latest technology is capable of is enough justification to purchase these aircraft.

Q. If the PAF cannot cross the border with these Block 52, what is the purpose of the Sniper pods and the air-to-ground munitions that we are getting?
Those are for use against terrorists who are waging a war against Pakistan. The fact is that the Block 52s will give us the capability to mount successful counter insurgency operations against terrorists in the tribal areas.

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## BATMAN

Ok guys... bit out of line.
All those who are going to farnborough air show should try to capture JF-17 from this angle.
Once i have seen one picture of Pakistani JF-17 from this angle but no i cannot find it any where on web.


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## M8R

There are three Block 52 aircraft according to Hkan
They are comparing the spines of C & D and looking at the spin of 'C' # 902 it looks though of A but it is not. The single seat C # 10902


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## kursed

Here you go, Batman:


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## Mani2020

I found an interesting as well as worrying thing for Pakistani fans in that interview

This will answer *Mastan Khan* *and other people* who were desprately wanting US technology and were saying that there is nothing like restrictions we can use it where ever and whenever we want


*Q. One of the stories going around is that the Block 52s are coming with strings attached: (i) the PAF can only base them in one airbase, Jacobabad; (ii) they cannot be used for offensive operations beyond Pakistan&#8217;s borders; (iii) some sort of monitoring mechanisms will be put in place to monitor the location of each aircraft and (iv) PAF cannot take them outside Pakistan without the permission of the US. Are these correct?*
*To some extent, yes.* However, it is important to understand the background to these conditions.
*When the PAF asked for the Block 52, the initial US reaction was &#8220;no&#8221;.* *Their main concern was that if this potent technology could be released to Pakistan, sooner or later, it would end up in the hands of the Chinese who would reverse engineer it*. *It was the PAF that offered a solution. We could place the Block 52s in a separate airbase where the Chinese would have no access. This meant an airbase that had no Chinese aircraft. We could not base them in Sargodha because we would not deny the Chinese access to our most important airbase. Jacobabad was a forward base which had been revamped by the Americans for Operation Enduring Freedom, including a new first-class runway, so it was the first choice. The US agreed to this proposal provided that it would have the right to monitor the aircraft.*

To recall an interesting little story: soon after the first F-16s were delivered to Pakistan in the mid-80s, the PLAAF Chief visited Sargodha. The Americans were there as well. As a gesture of courtesy, the PAF showed the PLAAF Chief one of the F-16s and let him sit in the cockpit. Some US technicians were there looking on. As soon as the PLAAF Chief sat in the F-16 cockpit, the first thing he did was to start measuring the HUD with his fingers, you know, when you extend your little finger and thumb to measure something? This worried the Americans.

Q. *What are the monitoring mechanisms? I have heard they will have US personnel stationed at Jacobabad*
The US personnel stationed at Jacobabad will be transitional. They will be training PAF aircrew on the maintenance of the Block 52. Most of these US personnel will be from Lockheed Martin. *The US does not need to have personnel physically present in Jacobabad to monitor the Block 52s.
*
*Q. Could you elaborate?*
*They have ways of keeping an eye on the Block 52s without being personally present.* The main concern is the transfer of cutting-edge technology &#8211; the avionics and radar, the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS) the Sniper pod. *They have put digital seals all the sensitive technologies, which can only be opened via a code, which only they know. If there is a malfunction or these parts need to be serviced, they will be taken out of the Block 52s and shipped back to the US for repairs/servicing. If we try to pry open these systems without the codes, inbuilt alarms will be relayed to the Americans, which will be a breach of the contract.*

*Q. Will the Americans be able to track the locations of the Block 52s through some sort of tracking devices hidden inside the aircraft?*
*If there are tracking devices then they will be inside the sealed systems, like the avionics suites or the sniper pods because we will not have the ability to look inside. If their Predator and Reaper drones are transmitting their GPS locations via satellite so can a Block 52 F-16.
*
*Even though Turkey produces the F-16, there are some components that are manufactured in the US and only come to Turkey for the final assembly. In one incident, a Turkish Block 50 crashed and the pilot was killed. They salvaged the wreckage and laid it out in hanger and started putting together the pieces to find out the cause. They found a piece of sealed equipment which had cracked open and inside they found some device that looked like a bug. Upon inquiry, it turned out to be a tracking device.
*
*Q. Doesn&#8217;t that worry the PAF?*
*I&#8217;m sure it does.* However, the PAF considers the Block 52 a &#8220;bonus&#8221; aircraft.*We are not depending on it for our entire air defence. It is a temporary force multiplier until we have enough squadrons of JF-17s and FC-20s. The opportunity to know what the latest technology is capable of is enough justification to purchase these aircraft.*

*Q. If the PAF cannot cross the border with these Block 52, what is the purpose of the Sniper pods and the air-to-ground munitions that we are getting?*
Those are for use against terrorists who are waging a war against Pakistan. The fact is that the Block 52s will give us the capability to mount successful counter insurgency operations against terrorists in the tribal areas.

This interview is not of a lay man but a PAF pilot who is flyong in Turkish airforce as well as responsible for the PAF block 52+ command and have spent 450 flying hours on f-7p before transforming to an f-16 pilot
Now this will answer many people who were thinking that digital codes typo things are just joke and that are amateurish thinking on the behalf of some young childs as *Mastan Khan* said to me when i brought that issue few months back

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## BATMAN

> Q. Any memorable experiences that you would like to share?
> 
> A. On one occasion &#8211; in one of the international Anatolian Eagles - PAF pilots were pitted against RAF Typhoons, a formidable aircraft. There were three set-ups and in all three, we shot down the Typhoons. The RAF pilots were shocked.



Now where is that fellow who was asking about difference in PAF and other airforces of the world..
100&#37; kill rate.... is killing man.

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## BATMAN

kursed said:


> Here you go, Batman:




Thanks my dear but it is not same picture it was more back (2 o'clock angle) rather than side and a/c was flying from left to right.


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## M8R

Mani2020 there is a lot of difference between kill device and tracking device otherwise you would see Turk's complaining even if Turk's can live with Tracking devices in their F-16's then why can't we?Just don't use these F-16's for nuclear weapons and there is no problem.

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## M8R

Quoting Krused from other thread


kursed said:


> ^ Here is an APP picture of the three aircrafts. The single-seater is carrying the serial-number: 902. Which is a Pakistani F16 C Block 52.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a higher res pic of the same aircraft.


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## air marshal

*A high tech fighter aircraft F-16 C/D Block 52 landing at PAF Base Shahbaz.*


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## air marshal




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## Kompromat

They are saying that F-16's refuled in the air - i smell KC-135 coming our way someday.


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## air marshal



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## MastanKhan

Mani2020 said:


> Now this will answer many people who were thinking that digital codes typo things are just joke and that are amateurish thinking on the behalf of some young childs as *Mastan Khan* said to me when i brought that issue few months back



Hi,

Thanks for remembering me with those kind words---it is always a pleasure---it is always a pleasure to hear from people who are in awe of me. Thankyou again-----

Hidden codes and tracking devices sealed equipment are nothing new---they had bben in a different form on our earlier F 16's as well---pak was never authorized to undo the seals on the earlier equipment either. So---as the technology advances---here are new items involved.
Now as for the kill switch---there is no such thing---no air force would accept a kill switsh---only those that have sold their souls. Now giving a source code to someone is a different issue---would the source codes ofamraams be given to india in case of comabt---I don't know---would the IFF transponder signal of the BLK 52 be given---I doubt it very much---.

The US knows very well where the F 16's are going to be used---they are not idiots---.

They will be be used as pakistan sees them fit for the occassion. The BLK 52 is for keeping the balance in power in the region---the scale was tilting too far off to one side---something had to be done---that is why the BLK 52---paf would have never ordered anything with a kill switch---. There are no kill switched on fighter aircraft---.

That is what you might have been talking about in your earlier posts about kill switches----.

Now there are active sensors / transponders and there are passive sensors transponders---active sensors / transponders are active all the time----they relay wave---they use battery power so they can be sourced about their location----passive sencors transponders are those that come active if there is an incidence---.

If they are active all the time---they can be located and found---anything that relays a signal can be located---so the sensor on that turkish plane was a ssensor that could come active when tampered.

For some of you engineers and others with any common sense know that any thing that release a signature of its presence---can be detected---if it can be detected---it can then be jammed as well.


Mani---good man---don't ride on that wave too high---do a little more research---Nowhere in that article did I read anything about a kill switch---.
The instrument in that turkish plane was something to do with tampering.

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## Comet

^ @ MK: Talking about AAMRAM, there is a disable switch in it, I guess. I read it somewhere that AAMRAM can deactivate if fired against friendly aircraft. Some software is built into the AAMRAM that detects if the targetting aircraft is friendly or not.

Of course, friendly means USAF and not IAF.


Edit: I missed the word "not" in "USAF and not IAF"


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## razgriz19

Black Blood said:


> They are saying that F-16's refuled in the air - i smell KC-135 coming our way someday.



well they cant fly 13000km+ on just internal and external fuel...
i get wat u mean but i dont think PAF would buy that....f-16s radius is good enough to defend our airspace


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## M8R

Umairp what you are talking about is not AMRAAM But IFF sensor which does not detect NATO Aircrafts as hostile where as Indian Air Force jets unless are on NATO frequency would show up as hostile.Guys honestly you people are too much conspiriacy theorist.Unless US want nuclear war over in here it won't support either side in war.

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## naseebkhanniazi

thats good i just saw these jet on tv iam really happy good luck paf and good luck pakistan


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## dbc

Mani2020 said:


> I found an interesting as well as worrying thing for Pakistani fans in that interview
> 
> This will answer *Mastan Khan* *and other people* who were desprately wanting US technology and were saying that there is nothing like restrictions we can use it where ever and whenever we want
> 
> 
> *Q. One of the stories going around is that the Block 52s are coming with strings attached: (i) the PAF can only base them in one airbase, Jacobabad; (ii) they cannot be used for offensive operations beyond Pakistans borders; (iii) some sort of monitoring mechanisms will be put in place to monitor the location of each aircraft and (iv) PAF cannot take them outside Pakistan without the permission of the US. Are these correct?*
> *To some extent, yes.* However, it is important to understand the background to these conditions.
> *When the PAF asked for the Block 52, the initial US reaction was no.* *Their main concern was that if this potent technology could be released to Pakistan, sooner or later, it would end up in the hands of the Chinese who would reverse engineer it*. *It was the PAF that offered a solution. We could place the Block 52s in a separate airbase where the Chinese would have no access. This meant an airbase that had no Chinese aircraft. We could not base them in Sargodha because we would not deny the Chinese access to our most important airbase. Jacobabad was a forward base which had been revamped by the Americans for Operation Enduring Freedom, including a new first-class runway, so it was the first choice. The US agreed to this proposal provided that it would have the right to monitor the aircraft.*
> 
> To recall an interesting little story: soon after the first F-16s were delivered to Pakistan in the mid-80s, the PLAAF Chief visited Sargodha. The Americans were there as well. As a gesture of courtesy, the PAF showed the PLAAF Chief one of the F-16s and let him sit in the cockpit. Some US technicians were there looking on. As soon as the PLAAF Chief sat in the F-16 cockpit, the first thing he did was to start measuring the HUD with his fingers, you know, when you extend your little finger and thumb to measure something? This worried the Americans.
> 
> Q. *What are the monitoring mechanisms? I have heard they will have US personnel stationed at Jacobabad*
> The US personnel stationed at Jacobabad will be transitional. They will be training PAF aircrew on the maintenance of the Block 52. Most of these US personnel will be from Lockheed Martin. *The US does not need to have personnel physically present in Jacobabad to monitor the Block 52s.
> *
> *Q. Could you elaborate?*
> *They have ways of keeping an eye on the Block 52s without being personally present.* The main concern is the transfer of cutting-edge technology  the avionics and radar, the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS) the Sniper pod. *They have put digital seals all the sensitive technologies, which can only be opened via a code, which only they know. If there is a malfunction or these parts need to be serviced, they will be taken out of the Block 52s and shipped back to the US for repairs/servicing. If we try to pry open these systems without the codes, inbuilt alarms will be relayed to the Americans, which will be a breach of the contract.*
> 
> *Q. Will the Americans be able to track the locations of the Block 52s through some sort of tracking devices hidden inside the aircraft?*
> *If there are tracking devices then they will be inside the sealed systems, like the avionics suites or the sniper pods because we will not have the ability to look inside. If their Predator and Reaper drones are transmitting their GPS locations via satellite so can a Block 52 F-16.
> *
> *Even though Turkey produces the F-16, there are some components that are manufactured in the US and only come to Turkey for the final assembly. In one incident, a Turkish Block 50 crashed and the pilot was killed. They salvaged the wreckage and laid it out in hanger and started putting together the pieces to find out the cause. They found a piece of sealed equipment which had cracked open and inside they found some device that looked like a bug. Upon inquiry, it turned out to be a tracking device.
> *
> *Q. Doesnt that worry the PAF?*
> *Im sure it does.* However, the PAF considers the Block 52 a bonus aircraft.*We are not depending on it for our entire air defence. It is a temporary force multiplier until we have enough squadrons of JF-17s and FC-20s. The opportunity to know what the latest technology is capable of is enough justification to purchase these aircraft.*
> 
> *Q. If the PAF cannot cross the border with these Block 52, what is the purpose of the Sniper pods and the air-to-ground munitions that we are getting?*
> Those are for use against terrorists who are waging a war against Pakistan. The fact is that the Block 52s will give us the capability to mount successful counter insurgency operations against terrorists in the tribal areas.
> 
> This interview is not of a lay man but a PAF pilot who is flyong in Turkish airforce as well as responsible for the PAF block 52+ command and have spent 450 flying hours on f-7p before transforming to an f-16 pilot
> Now this will answer many people who were thinking that digital codes typo things are just joke and that are amateurish thinking on the behalf of some young childs as *Mastan Khan* said to me when i brought that issue few months back



you'all are so gullible it isn't even funny, you can figure out it your F-16 is "transmitting" with a 10$ piece of equipment from Radio shack

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## MastanKhan

umairp said:


> ^ @ MK: Talking about AAMRAM, there is a disable switch in it, I guess. I read it somewhere that AAMRAM can deactivate if fired against friendly aircraft. Some software is built into the AAMRAM that detects if the targetting aircraft is friendly or not.
> 
> Of course, friendly means USAF and IAF.



Hi,

It is known as the source code---like the ones french gave to the british agains the exocet---.

Now think about it---the U S gives the soucre code for the amraam to india---okay---which means that america is allowing the amraams sold everywhere to be neutralized by indian air force---secondly---what if the source codes are somehow sold by or just given to the russians---the whole of american air to air missile system may be neutralized---.

If the russians get their hands on one source code----they can find the standard that they are based upon----you computer nerds will know more than me---.

PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING---THE U S WILL NEVER LET ITS EQUIPMENT FAIL AGAINST THE RUSSIAN EQUIPMENT---ANYTIME ANYWHERE---under no circumstances---these things don't happen just like that.

What if after the fact the pakistanis say that the american equipment performed inferior to he russian----their were no source codes involved---america is lying to hide its inferior stuff---inj actual war the russian equipment was superior to american----so damned if the americans provide proof about source codes and damned if they don't.

Pakistan is a testing ground for american equipment agains the russian equipment without america going to war with russia---this is their test ground---actual test ground---pakistan---if the american thought that the BLK 52, its fire control radar and the amraam could not take out the might and pride of the indian air force---they would have never sold the blk 52 and package to pakistan---they would have offered something that would---.

People need to learn how the american mind thinks and works---america will never let its equipment come second best to the russian.

Now----please don't get me wrong----be as critical to me that you can be---but if there is something that makes sense---please keep that in mind.

There is no question ever asked---that is termed as a stupid question---but some of them they get you twisted.

One last----there is nothing impossible in this world---suppose if the americans give away the source codes---then it means that for them the cource codes have become REDUNDANT---they have gone into higher and diifferent level of technology out of this world.

You know that american electrnoic warfare planes could be getting into breaking into the DATALINKING computer of the enemy aircraft while in flight----that is possibly a big big thing now---a computer system on the electronic aircraft---so high tech that it can break into the enemy aircrafts computer while flying towards each other---is it available---or is it coming---I don't know.

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## MastanKhan

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> you'all are so gullible it isn't even funny, you can figure out it your F-16 is "transmitting" with a 10$ piece of equipment from Radio shack



Hi DBC,

There are a lots of engineers and engr students on this board----truly I wonder at the quality of their knowledge---as to how competent they are.

People have no common sense that any thing that transmits is--- traceable instantly---.

This board has the cream of my nations youngsters---from my motherland---and they are so thick---it is unbelievable.

Thanks for your comments.


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## dbc

MastanKhan said:


> Hi DBC,
> 
> There are a lots of engineers and engr students on this board----truly I wonder at the quality of their knowledge---as to how competent they are.
> 
> People have no common sense that any thing that transmits is--- traceable instantly---.
> 
> This board has the cream of my nations youngsters---from my motherland---and they are so thick---it is unbelievable.
> 
> Thanks for your comments.



.. I think some people deliberately feed the paranoia, I understand anti-US sentiment is high, I get why so many people in Pakistan hate us - but to fake an interview with a serving PAF pilot   some people will go to any lengths to malign the US.

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## M8R

The implications of the US 'shutting down' the f16s or messing about with the systems are significant. Even the smallest hint that they manipulated pakistani systems, would, in the long term do more damage to the yanks given their defence industry is based on exports. who will buy their weapons if their is a risk of the yanks tunring the things off?If they did do the above in the event of a war, surely they would be pushing both closer to a nuclear war as they would be massivley denting pakistans conventional deterrant. when that goes, the only thing left is the nuke.They sure as hell don't want that besides i doubt any patriot American can bear the insult that their jets got eaten by ruskies jets.

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## M8R

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> .. I think some people deliberately feed the paranoia, I understand anti-US sentiment is high, I get why so many people in Pakistan hate us - but to fake an interview with a serving PAF pilot   some people will go to any lengths to malign the US.


It is not a fake interview - It is a real interview with PAF Pilot who was posted to Turkey as pilot exchange program.Read the whole interview - Courtesy pakdef.info.PAF pilot mentioned these are tracking devices US put in place just to confirm that nothing is tampered with.In other words latest tech is not stolem or sold or other countries.


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## Machoman

Congrats all pakis


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## mjnaushad

*Atleast one of these F 16 is 2 seat version. *


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## anathema

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;956628 said:


> Q. What is a PAF F-16 pilot doing in Turkey?
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and the Turkish Air Force (TuAF) have a long-standing pilot exchange programme, which goes back a couple of decades under which, at any given time, two PAF pilots are in Turkey and two TuAF pilots are in Pakistan. Since the PAF and the TuAF share two common aircraft  the T-37 trainer and the F-16  both countries exchange pilots on the each of these aircraft. So right now we have one PAF pilot flying TuAF T-37s and another PAF pilot flying TuAF F-16s in Turkey and one TuAF pilot flying PAF T-37s and one Tu-AF pilot flying PAF F-16s in Pakistan.
> 
> Q. How long is the duration of the secondment?
> The average secondment is 2 years, but it could be less or more depending on various factors.
> 
> Q. What is the basis for PAFs selection of a pilot for secondment to the TuAF F-16 squadrons?
> The selection is done by the PAF and is based purely on merit. They start with your academy reports and the final report is given by your squadron commander. The TuAF requirement is that the pilot must have a minimum of 250 hours on the F-16 before joining the TuAF F-16 squadrons.
> 
> Q. What is the PAF criterion for selecting a pilot for its F-16 squadrons?
> A pilot must have an outstanding record and a minimum of 500 hours on either the F-7 or the Mirages or both aircraft. Additionally, he must have the right aptitude and the ability to learn and apply his learning. The F-16 is not a simple aircraft to fly. Usually, most pilots go from the F-7 to the Mirages before coming to the F-16. This route washes out the weaker pilots.




Can you please post the source ? 

And also after reading this interview , *i just feel that there are lot of details which could have been avoided by the pilot*. For example - American monitoring systems , chinese plaaf chief incident , etc... Just felt that these kind of information should not be leaked into civilian domain.. 

What do you all guys think ?

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## M8R

The sources is RMS Azam at pakdef.info.


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## TOPGUN

End of the video the pilot is wearing Pakistani flag on his right shoulder?


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## M8R

^Yeah, because Pilot is Pakistani.


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## dbc

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;957326 said:


> *It is not a fake interview* - It is a real interview with PAF Pilot who was posted to Turkey as pilot exchange program.Read the whole interview - Courtesy pakdef.info.PAF pilot mentioned these are tracking devices US put in place just to confirm that nothing is tampered with.In other words latest tech is not stolem or sold or other countries.



How do you know it isn't fake? Unless the identity of the pilot is revealed how can you are anyone else guarantee the interview isn't fake?




> Re: PAF related discussion: May - August 2010
> INTERVIEW WITH A PAF VIPER PILOT
> 
> This interview was taken a couple of months ago. I did not have the time to transcribe it. *The identity of the pilot is being withheld* and the interview has been edited.


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## shadow-point

i dont know what to say either you people are so naive or just f***ing ignorant and having high hopes in americans as many of u been to america and many wont i been there and its a popular generalised saying there that americans as individuals are good but as a group are bad. 
in an earlier post one of my friend suggested that if turks can live with tracking sensors then why cant paf my dear baby friend ask turks to use their f-16s against israhell and u will come to know what these f-16s turned spies can do.......dont anyone here has any idea that americans/israhellis wouldnt have considered that pakistan maybe or definitely be using these machines against israhell/america if the time comes forget indians...............

i live in pak i have jammer in my car if i have to go out of province i have to inform them with my passcode or car will automatically shutdown as soon as it crosses the border of my home province ok ........... forget about it getting stolen.....the company is called tracker plus insurance.....................

history knows that americans are israhelli slaves and israhellies are bed partners with indians so put your extraordinary logic somewhere and try to suqueez the fact that indians and americans are our proven enemies......

we r still waiting for the battle group that was supposed to come and resue us in 1971 and history of sanctions has not gone too far to be forgotten.........

my concern is we use these spy birds very carefully and not give any chance to our enemies to even think about giving us hard time.......coz in an exercise they may let u claim victory as par these birds but what would happen if these birds get shutdown in the event of real war or real situation .......... and how about planes getting busted on their own in minhas airbase..............people gonna call this conspiract theory whatever......those who dont believe wont believe......and what is bound to happen will happen oneway or the other......but paf must exercise extreme caution with these birds

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## S.U.R.B.

Machoman said:


> YouTube - F-16 C/D Block-52 aircraft piloted by PAF pilots landed at Shahbaz Air Base - June 26, 2010
> 
> Congrats all pakis



The news caster saying,"*inn tayaron ne doran e parwaz refueling ka muzahira kia*" interesting.

As far as i know IL-78 not a suitable refueler for F-16.
Want to know whether it was done in Pakistan? which looks most unlikely.


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## notorious_eagle

Death.By.Chocolate said:


> How do you know it isn't fake? Unless the identity of the pilot is revealed how can you are anyone else guarantee the interview isn't fake?



You need to understand how PAF works, it is a very secretive organization. Most probably the pilot was giving an interview off the record to a close relative or friend, PAF pilots are not allowed to give interviews without the consent of the High Command. I for one would say Pakdef is a very reliable source; news such as PAF evaluating FC20's or PAF in possession of BVR missiles was released over there. 

Back to the topic, i am highly curious to know how did PAF manage to score those kills against the Typhoons?


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## Jigs

notorious_eagle said:


> You need to understand how PAF works, it is a very secretive organization. Most probably the pilot was giving an interview off the record to a close relative or friend, PAF pilots are not allowed to give interviews without the consent of the High Command. I for one would say Pakdef is a very reliable source; news such as PAF evaluating FC20's or PAF in possession of BVR missiles was released over there.
> 
> Back to the topic, i am highly curious to know how did PAF manage to score those kills against the Typhoons?



It could be how it was set up or that the UK sent rookie Typhoon pilots to the Anatolian Eagle. The typhoon's avionics and maneuverability/performance is far beyond an F-16. 

Anyway i found the video AE-09/2 Training





Typhoons take off at 6:12 after the F-4s. 

PAF was not in this one though. So unless it was part of the exchange program idk where else they would encounter typhoons. 


AE-07/2 Training was the only one PAF and the UK both joined.


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## AVIAN

notorious_eagle said:


> You need to understand how PAF works, it is a very secretive organization. Most probably the pilot was giving an interview off the record to a close relative or friend, PAF pilots are not allowed to give interviews without the consent of the High Command. I for one would say Pakdef is a very reliable source; news such as PAF evaluating FC20's or PAF in possession of BVR missiles was released over there.
> 
> Back to the topic, i am highly curious to know how did PAF manage to score those kills against the Typhoons?



Yes I do know and for that matter anyother individual who have some slightest of idea of Operational Planning and Procedure. If PAF was in pocession of BVR then it has no reason to keep it secret and BVR was never been any wonder weapon to make it obligatory on the part of PAF as a entity to make anything secret.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

It is known as DACT.

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## IceCold

For the last couple of months and specially this month, heart beats were stopped in anticipation of the F-16s finally coming to Pakistan and people were literally counting days and now when they finally have arrived, all sort of theories are flying.
Come on guys what ever that there is in those F-16s, PAF is already well aware of that and still decided to go along with the system, obviously there was something to it which led them to make such a decision even with strings attached. So lets not get carried away with news from here and there, for what its worth, F-16s are in Pakistan and we have to live with the fact that PAF had made the decision to go for the F-16s after considering every possible opportunity including the much hyped J-10.

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## air marshal

*Pakistan Air Force formally inducted Three F-16 C/D Block-52 aircraft into fleet*
June 27, 2010

By Zahid Gishkori

ISLAMABAD: Three F-16 aircraft provided by the US have formally been inducted into Pakistan Air Force (PAF) today in a ceremony at the Shahbaz Air Base.

The three F-16s are part of a batch of 18 aircrafts to be given to the Pakistan Air Force by the end of the year.

The ceremony was attended by Defence Minister Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, US Air Chief General Schwartz, US ambassador to Pakistan Anne Patterson and other senior civil and military officials.

Ambassador Anne Patterson said the US is increasing cooperation with Pakistan in the economic and energy sectors as well.

She added that the induction of F-16s will strengthen Pakistans fight against militancy.

In the second phase of adding to the PAF fleet, five F-16 Block 52 C fighter jets would be given to Pakistan over a period of a month and a half.

The jet fighters were flown from the US to Jacobabad by Pakistan Air Force pilots, who had recently completed training on the new aircraft in the US, Air Commodore Tariq Qamar Yazdanie told The Express Tribune. Air Marshal Muhammad Hasan, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Operations), Air Marshal Waseemud Din, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Administration), along with other senior Pakistan Air Force (PAF) officials, received the jets.

Speaking on the occasion, Hasan said Pakistan had signed a contract with the US government in 2005-2006 for the acquisition of 18 F-16s C/D Block 52.

As per the contract, the PAF would receive these aircraft in several batches. The delivery of all 18 fighters would be completed by the end of this year, he added, while the next five would be received in three weeks. The F-16s C/D Block 52 is a high tech fighter aircraft equipped with sophisticated state-of-the-art avionics suite and latest weapons with night precision attack capability, he said. The aircraft are much superior to the F-16s A/Bs already in the PAFs inventory.

The sale of F-16s to Pakistan renews aircraft which existed between the US and Pakistan in the 1980s, but were halted in the 1990s. Meanwhile, sources told The Express Tribune that the US Air Force will continue to train Pakistani pilots and more than 10 pilots will complete their training with the Arizona National Guard in Tucson by the end of the year.

The US Department of Defence is also training Pakistani personnel in night-attack training and four Pakistanis have completed the training, the sources added.

A senior official of the PAF also said that Pakistan is paying $1.4 billion for the 18 new aircraft, in addition to $1.3 billion in upgrades for its existing F-16 fleet, which would be being delivered in 2012. He added that the security of the Jacobabad airbase has been enhanced and no one other than PAF officials would be allowed to have access to the renovated Shahbaz Airbase.

Approximately Rs25 billion was allocated to upgrade the airbase, [including Rs7 billion provided by the] Economic Coordination Committee to convert it to a main-operating base, he said.

Pakistan receives three new F-16s &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## M8R

Expect some good footage now - Let's hope salmansignals upload some good footage of ceremony.He always get this kind of footage and in the video where the pilot lands F-16.Why the pilots who were wing commander did not salute the Air Marshall before shaking hands?


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## air marshal



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## air marshal

*ACM Rao Qamar Suleman has said that No. 5 Squadron will be armed with F-16 C/D Block-52 aircraft.*


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## M8R

Air MArshal you run the salmansignals youtube channel?


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## Hasnain2009

MastanKhan said:


> The US knows very well where the F 16's are going to be used---they are not idiots---.



Exactly!
And today air chief also said that all resources will be used against all types of internal and external threats including these new F-16s blk 52(pointing his finger towards F-16 blk 52), and USA ambassador to Pakistan and Cheif of US air force were both enjoying every word of PAF Air Chief

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## umair86

no.5 is Mirage sqd it should not be reequipped with F-16s now instead no.14 tailchoppers should be which was the 3rd sqd to operate Falcons until 1993. No.5 was the first sqd of Mirages and it should be the last to operate the type in PAF


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## M8R

I think the Mirages of No5 sqd would be phased out and replaced with F16's.- Tailchoppers might be equipped with J10 later on however Griffins or Arrows Squardon might get J10's.Which jet's Tailchoppers is currently operating?


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## air marshal




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## air marshal




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## Dazzler

I doubt about the authenticity of this interview with a PAF pilot. On the basis of my conversation with a close friend, even he is cautious in answering many things to me as if i am a foreign agent and more often than not, i have to repeat my questions to him. This pilot seems to be in a chit chat mood and exposing things that no sane PAF pilot will ever do. However, PAF was concerned about bugging isssues on blk 52s and have made an effective arrangement just how to use it to the best of it's ability. Far fetched things such as they will be blown up mid air or shut down or switched to auto pilot when Master Arm switch is pulled by the pilot is nothing but nonsense as this will only hurt Yanks in the longer run in Afghanistan and at the moment when they are looking to cement relations with us and sending their highest ranking military officials, do you really think they will exercise such an endeavor ?? Nonsense !!!!

One more thing, the addition of blk 52s is a huge boost to PAFs existing capabilities and our revised specifications that resulted in a much effective ECM suite (ASPIS 2), ALQ 211 EW pod (later asked) DB 110 (later asked), SNIPER ATP (later asked) and few undisclosed items also included on our request. Believe it fellows that ours are closest to Israelis as per my info and such a technology will not be left un-monitored by the Yanks.

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## Zulfiqar

> that resulted in a much effective ECM suite (*ASPIS 2*), ALQ 211 EW pod (later asked) DB 110 (later asked),



Does that mean that our Block-52s will have DRFM capability?


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## M8R

No - ECM minus the DRFM.


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## rohailmalhi

M Zulfiqar Asad said:


> Does that mean that our Block-52s will have DRFM capability?



Yes i think so . Read this it is taken from the PDF file given by the Ratheon on there website abt the ASPIS - Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suite.


> ASPIS is certified for EMI/EMC and safety-of-flight on the F-16
> Block 30/50/52+ aircraft, and it is flight proven, operationally
> deployed, and organically supported.There are no additional
> integration costs on F-16 aircraft. The program infrastructure
> is in place and actively managing the production line.
> *ASPIS is being produced now in economically viable quantities
> using modern digital technology in both the RWR/EW suite
> controller and DRFM-equipped jammer for high reliability and
> low cost*. While providing the most effective self-protection
> available, the entire integrated ASPIS suite costs less than some
> jammers currently deployed on existing aircraft or still in development
> for future aircraft.


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## M8R

Guys the interview is fake per senior members of pakdef.info - It's just conspiracy talk by some anti f16 deal lobbies.Any PAF pilot if reveals this kind of job would be fired as Muradk mentioned before - PAF is very secretive about these things.

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## Zulfiqar

> Yes i think so . Read this it is taken from the PDF file given by the Ratheon on there website abt the ASPIS - Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suite.



That is why i asked, the specs say that ASPIS will have DRFM but the general notion here is that PAF will not get the DRFM capability.


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## TOPGUN

Just mashallah awsome news all around


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## air marshal




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## air marshal




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## Gin ka Pakistan

PAF got new generation of Sabers F-16s-blk52 and hopefully the grand Son of Saber F22 in 2020 .  






*
What a beautiful family tree *


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## air marshal




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## air marshal

*PAF attains Night time attack capability: PAF Chief*
June 27, 2010

SHAHBAZ AIR BASE: With the induction of latest version of F-16 aircraft, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has achieved the capability to carry out all-weather night time operations, said Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman here on Sunday.

Addressing the formal handing over ceremony of three Block 52 C/D version of F-16 aircraft by the US at the newly developed base near Jacobabad, Chief of Air Staff said this technology will not only eliminate our existing limitations of precision night operations but also enable the PAF to meet its mission more effectively.

The mission of the PAF is to Maintain Peace with Honor in the Region: should this primary effort of maintaining peace fail, we will use our resources including these aircraft to defend our country against any internal or external threats.

General Norton A Schwartz, Chief of Staff, United States Air Force (USAF), especially visited Pakistan to attend the handing over ceremony.

US Ambassador to Pakistan Anne W. Patterson, Vice Admiral Michael LeFever, US Defence Representative in Pakistan along with other senior PAF, USAF, civil and military officials were also present on the occasion. Lt Gen Hostage of USAF (Centcom) handed over the documents of the newly inducted aircraft to Air Marshal Mohammad Hasan, Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations), PAF.

The newly manufactured aircraft by Lokheed Martin had reached Pakistan on Saturday.

Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar termed the handing over of the aircraft to Pakistan a happy augury as the deal for supply of these aircraft by the US was signed back in 2006, but it became controversial at the hands of critics on both sides.

However, he said of late it matured following efforts put in by the good people living in both the friendly countries.

Later, talking to media-persons, he said other countries in the region had already such type of aircraft available with them while acquiring of latest F-16 aircraft by Pakistan has brought back the balance of power in the region.

The Chief of Air Staff while addressing the gathering said that PAF men made round the clock efforts to complete the Shahbaz Base as a fully fledged air base, which only a year back was being used as a forward operation base.

PAF Base, Shahbaz has been developed into a modern Base capable of handling state-of-the-art and most modern fighter aircraft of the world in less than a year.

Completion of this task in a record time reflects the spirit of PAF, which is used to working against heavy odds and meeting the assigned tasks within the available limited resources. These new aircraft will begin a new era of hi-tech environment in the PAF.

As far as the overhauling and up-gradation of existing F-16 aircraft is concerned, he said initially 14 aircraft from the existing fleet of PAF would be upgraded with the US assistance as a team of technicians, engineers and experts had already been working to transfer the up-gradation and repair skills to their Pakistani counterparts.

This handing over has formally started the delivery of the fleet of 18 F-16 C/D Block 52 fighter aircraft to Pakistan. PAF would receive these state-of-the-art aircraft from the US Government in different batches.

The delivery of all the 18 aircraft would complete by the end of this year. In addition to delivery of 18 aircraft by US, he said the friendly country would also help Pakistan in upgrading existing lot of F-16 aircraft matching to the latest version of the fighting falcons.

The Chief of Air Staff also announced an uplift package for the people of Jacobabad according to which PAF would immediately provide three water filtration plants, besides constructing a hospital and school in the area.

Source: Associated Press of Pakistan

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## air marshal

*Air Marshal Mohammad Hasan, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Operational), Air Marshal Waseem ud Din, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Administration) along with other Senior PAF and USAF officials at PAF Base Shahbaz.*







*Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force along with General Norton A Schwartz, Chief of the Staff United States Air Force and US Ambassador to Pakistan Anne W. Patterson during handing over ceremony of F-16 C/D Block 52 fighter aircraft to Pakistan at PAF Base Shahbaz.*

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

I had to go to our step sister web site---the info one to read the original article and see what RMS Azam was quoting / saying.

In automobiles the system is owned by ON STAR----MY 2004 ACURA 3.5 RL had that factory installed on star system that it could automatically lock unlock my doors remotely from the satellite if I forgot the keys inside. It had the ability to shut the engine down in case of an accident----in case of an accident---the on star operator would come online immediately and check the well fare of the occupants---if no response---the operator would shut down the engine immediately to stop the fuel pump. Now the local police has been hooked up with them to shut down the car---if the car has that system in case of a car chase.

Most highline cars used to have that system and still do----most of the General Motors cars have that system----it is available in cheaper cars as well---not all of them---but quite a few of them---it is not a gps based system---on star uses the ANALOG system---you may be able to get that service factory equipped---you don't need gps system for that.

This system is not out of the ordinary----every aircraft can have that system installed if there is any need---which I doubt very much---.

But think about it----and use common sense----so many wannabe engineers and computer guys and smart fellows over here --- but you are not knowledgeable people---as a matter of fact you have no clue what wars are and what happens in wars---you people are a bunch of !!!!!---- and you got me following your lead---stupid me---a war zone is a heavy sanctioned area----heavy heavy jamming is going on all the time----from your planes----and ground stations---from enemy planes and ground stations---jamming of electronic waves anywhere and everywhere---so whomsoever is going to alter the behaviour of your plane is declaring war on you as well---ain't gonna happen.

Just imagine---if america can shut down an aircraft---then the enemy has a chance of shutting down that aircraft---if a signal is sent out---that same signal can be intercepted, trapped, snagged and broken into---it is hacking into the codes---guess what----that is where the next war is headed to---hacking codes right in the middle of flight of the other aircraft---.

Is the u s already searching for that capability----most definitely. 

Then there is the RFID chip---which doesnot give out any signal except when it passes by a sensor---would that chip be able to do funny things---I doubt it very much----at this stage it only announces its location when a sensor passes by it or when it passes by a sensor.


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## ejaz007

*PAF to use F-16s as it wishes *
Monday, June 28, 2010
*Air chief says US imposed no conditions; US air chief says new inductions will enhance ability of PAF to destroy extremists*
By Muhammad Anis

ISLAMABAD: Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman on Sunday maintained that Pakistan Air Force (PAF) would employ all its assets, including the newly-inducted F-16 C/D Block 52 aircraft, to defend the country against all external and internal threats.

Our mission is to maintain peace with honour in the region but should this primary effort of maintaining peace fails, the PAF will employ all its assets, including these aircraft, to defend the country against external and internal security threats, said the air chief while speaking at the handing over ceremony of the first batch of F-16 C/D Block 52 aircraft and later talking to newsmen at the PAF Base Shahbaz (Jacobabad).

US Ambassador Anne W Patterson was also present at the impressive ceremony held at the newly-furbished and the most modern airbase of the country.

Answering a question, the air chief said the acquisition of hi-tech Falcons would neither spark an arms race nor alter the balance of power in the region. He observed that it would rather restore the balance of power as the neighbours already had hi-tech aircraft in their inventory.

To another query, he maintained that there was no restriction on the use of the new Falcons against any specific country.

He was responding to a question on the impression that the modern planes had been given to Pakistan with the condition that these would in no case be used against a particular country. You have also heard my speech. There is no such restriction, he maintained.

To another question, the air chief said the induction of 18 such F-16s into the PAF would be completed by December this year.

Observing that Pakistan and the United States were allies in the war against terrorism and extremism, he stressed that trust between the two countries was an essential element required to achieve success. I had mentioned during the rolling out ceremony of the F-16s in the US that the process of trust building will start when I will see these aircraft flying in Pakistani air space by Pakistani pilots, he recalled.

The air chief noted that the delivery of the aircraft was the beginning of the process to develop trust. He said the trust between the two countries would take some time to be established fully, but said the ceremony was an important step in that direction. We should continue to take such steps to further develop the trust between the two countries, he added.

He said the new F-16 aircraft provide the PAF all-weather precision attack capability day and night. This capability would add a new dimension to the PAF potential. Operationalising the capabilities of these new aircraft and mastering the technology is a challenge for the PAF, he said. 

The air chief said the new capabilities of this weapon system would be operationalised and employed in the near future. This technology will not only eliminate the existing limitations of precision night operations but also enable the PAF to meet its mission to maintain peace with honour in the region, he said.

He recalled that critics questioned the decision, saying that the F-16s would have no role in the fight against terrorism and cynics challenged the wisdom of a contract with the US, based on the past experience.

But, he praised the dedication and efforts of Pakistani and US officials who helped in accomplishing the task. It is like a dream comes true, Rao Qamar said.

US Air Chief Norton A Schwartz said the induction of state-of-the-art F-16s with night vision devices would effectively enhance the PAFs capability in destroying extremists.

Paying tributes to Pakistani forces and people for fighting against terrorism, he said the US stands by Pakistan in this war. He pointed out that all the eight Pakistani pilots were rigorously trained in the US in combat operations and other techniques and they would further train the new generation of F-16 pilots in Pakistan. He termed the PAF Base Shahbaz in Jacobabad a world-class base.

US Ambassador Anne W Patterson said that it was an important day in the relations between the two countries, which are allies in the war against terrorism. We have seen the PAF fighting against extremists and making advancements, she observed.

She said the US government would launch a number of welfare projects for the people of Jacobabad with particular reference to the water supply and waste management.

Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations) Air Marshal Muhammad Hasan said the occasion also marked to operationalise the new airbase. It is seen as a modern airbase in the country and strength of the PAF and the air chief has directed for implementing the same on other air bases of the PAF, he said.

He pointed out that during the induction of new F-16s, the PAF continued its other heavy commitments like the war against terror.

APP adds from Jacobabad: US Ambassador Anne W Patterson said that Americas offer of a long-term partnership with Pakistan is tangible and it is our hope that this partnership will deliver our common goals of security and prosperity in the region and throughout the world.

Pakistanis and Americans are working together to build a better world, we all aspire to leave as our legacy, she said.

She said that Pakistan and the United States share a deep and broad partnership, which is growing to encompass nearly every element of government-to-government cooperation.

Under the Strategic Dialogue established by US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi, she said, the two nations are working together on economic development, trade and energy, healthcare, education, science and technology and agriculture. Our governments share a vision of partnership today which is unprecedented in the history of our bilateral relationship, she said. 

It both reflects Americas long-term commitment to Pakistan as an important ally and partner and is a testament to the shared vision of our democratically-elected governments, she added. 

The US ambassador said an important element of Pakistan-US relationship is strong and a growing security partnership, through which the two countries are working to make this region secure, stable and peaceful. 

She recalled that four years ago, the United States and the Government of Pakistan had signed a Letter of Agreement for the acquisition of 18 new F-16 aircraft by Pakistan to support this countrys counter-terrorism efforts. 

I am glad to be here today to witness the induction of the first three of these aircraft into the Pakistan Air Force in an event which begins yet another cycle of fulfilment in Americas commitments to Pakistan, the US envoy said.

The induction of these advanced F-16s is a historic milestone for US-Pakistan relations  both a symbolic and a tangible demonstration of our strong partnership and the US intent to stand beside Pakistan over the long-term as an important ally and friend, Patterson said.

Our commitment does not end with the delivery of these aircraft. The United States will continue to support the Pakistan Air Force through training and munitions procurement, and through updates to the 45 F-16s in the Pakistan Air Forces existing fleet, she added. 

The US ambassador said that she was impressed by the skills of Pakistani pilots as they have prepared to fly the F-16 aircraft in defence of Pakistan. But Americans know that extraordinarily powerful weapons alone cannot strengthen this or any other nation. The strength of our economies and our institutions and our people also are key elements of national power. 

PAF to use F-16s as it wishes

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## mahmoodadeel

Why more F-16s?

PAFS love affair with the F-16s began in 1982, when at the height of the Soviet occupation, the Mujahedeen camps in Pakistan were being bombarded by Soviet Air Force fighter aircraft with impunity. PAF at that time did not have a fighter aircraft capable enough to meet the threat, since the Soviet and Afghan fighter aircraft could easily attack their ground targets, located close to the Durand Line and retreat to safety before the PAF could be scrambled. Although Pakistan had assumed the role of a frontline state, its requests for a suitable fighter aircraft from the US fell on deaf ears. All the PAF was offered was F-5E and the Tigershark F-20, redubbed as F-5Gs. PAF stuck to its guns and insisted on being provided the F-16s. PAF pilots and technicians converted to the state-of-the- art aircraft in record time and the first batch landed at Sargodha on January 1983 and was pressed into action straight away. Flying Combat Air Patrol (CAP) missions, they not only kept the enemy intruders at bay but also shot down ten Soviet and Afghan air force aircraft. The Daily Mail observes that the moment the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan ceased, the US not only withdrew from the region but also slapped sanctions on the PAF, stopping further supplies although the PAF had ordered 71 more, paying advance hard cash for 28 of them. The US government not only stopped the spare parts of the existing fleet but embargoed the 28 F-16s on order, adding insult to injury by charging PAF for storage of the embargoed planes. PAFs technicians managed to keep the aircraft flying and they served Pakistan well, acting as a deterrent to Indo-Israeli adventurism against Pakistans nuclear capability.

Come 9/11, Pakistan again became an apple of US eye and soon sanctions were lifted, some of the embargoed F-16s released for PAF and fresh 18 F-16 C/D Block-52 were contracted for sale to Pakistan through FMS. The war against terror brought a new challenge for the PAF and tandem with the Pakistan Army, its fighter aircraft led precision attacks against a fleeting enemy, hiding in the mountains. It is reported that the US provided invaluable training to the PAF aircrew in such operations, in which PAF had limited experience. The latest F-16 C/D Block 52 and the mid-life upgrade kits for the remaining F-16 fleet, which will bring them at par with new additions, are expected to serve the air force ablyl. The Daily Mail would like to question the collective wisdom of its defence planners, that when the intermediate period during the sanctions, gave PAF the route of indigenization and with Chinese support it has developed the lethal JF-17 Thunder, why it is again falling in the trap of being blocked again by US when they depart Afghanistan next year. Indeed the new F-16s, with their Beyond Visual Range Missiles, enhanced Precision Guided Munitions, Electronic Warfare suites; early warning radars and a wide array of electronics make the new F-16s a formidable platform for deterrence as well as combating the war against terror. However, there is always the element of uncertainty, as when the carpet of US support will be pulled out and PAF will be left stranded mid air. China is not only a reliable partner, a time tested friend but has established that its technology has improved with leap and bounds. Pakistan should have enhanced its local defence industry with the help of its Chinese friends so that in future no other nation uses us only at the time of its need and later dumps us. Prudence demands that you learn your lessons from history and mistakes made in the past. Unfortunately, we get temporarily blinded by the glamour of the west, the numerous trips we get to make to the US for training or procurement and tend to spurn the professional and hardcore attitude of our allies in the east, till we get rebuffed and ditched.

Why more F-16s?


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## Super Hornet

first flight of PAF BK 52 F-16 was on 9 sep 2009 and in jst 9 months we have recived ou first batch of these latest F-16s.I think this was the fastest delivery of Any aircraft to the PAF.


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## Imran Khan

Super Hornet said:


> first flight of PAF BK 52 F-16



nya aya hai bhai lagta hai ye viedeo dekh dekh ker to mery bal sufaid ho gai yaar.


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## Adios Amigo

wrong posting!! got corrected.


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## MastanKhan

mahmoodadeel said:


> Why more F-16s?
> 
> Pakistan should have enhanced its local defence industry with the help of its Chinese friends so that in future no other nation uses us only at the time of its need and later dumps us. Prudence demands that you learn your lessons from history and mistakes made in the past. Unfortunately, we get temporarily blinded by the glamour of the west, the numerous trips we get to make to the US for training or procurement and tend to spurn the professional and hardcore attitude of our allies in the east, till we get rebuffed and ditched.
> 
> Why more F-16s?



Hi,

It is not the glamour of the west alone---it is the immediate threat coming from across the border---it also the highly superior american technology tyhat pak is getting---.

You people need to understand and acknowledge---when you are fighting a war with an enemy with superior weaponary and numbers---you got to counter it with better.

F 16 BLK 52 is an exteremly superior weapon system in its class and to date it can take out any of the opponents weapons systems mano am mano without prejudice. 

America has given us what we wanted in that plane---albeit a few minor compromises---even though I am extremely critical of paf and its procurement----but I want to clear this with many posters---if the PAF had not felt that the BLK 52 could meet and greet the enemy in the air and on the ground0----they would have gone a different route---.

Now as for the chinese weapons systems and fire control radar---china is about 5 --- 8 years behind or more where the americans are on our BLK 52---.

I agree with you that we should have learnt our lesson from history---and learnt to use the americans in a better and an efficient manner---which means that when you agree to do a job----then don't scowl and make faces----do it with a smile on your face even if it tears your heart out---don't let them see you sweat----and do the bidding as if there is no tomorrow.

Instead of burning the u s flag and bashing u s in public forums and hurling threats----if the nation would have flocked itself together like a flock of covey---and stood together instead of being split in a thousand houses---we would not have had to worry about any issues.

As long as pak steps up its strikes against the al qaeda and their cohorts---there won't be any issues---and amwerica can't get out of afg at this time----looks like we may have secured the barn door for atleast for another 5 years.


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## Super Hornet

Imran Khan said:


> nya aya hai bhai lagta hai ye viedeo dekh dekh ker to mery bal sufaid ho gai yaar.


Sorry but i saw it first time.


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## air marshal



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## IceCold

air marshal said:


>



Beautiful pic.


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## blain2

&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;&#9770;;957952 said:


> I think the Mirages of No5 sqd would be phased out and replaced with F16's.- Tailchoppers might be equipped with J10 later on however Griffins or Arrows Squardon might get J10's.Which jet's Tailchoppers is currently operating?



14 sqn is equipped with F-7Ps.


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## blain2

Imran Khan said:


> i have same qes they send 2 block52 and 1 upgraded block15



See this.

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## Imran Khan

blain2 said:


> See this.



it was old sir when i see first time there low quilty viedeo. all 3 are block52


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## blain2

Jigs said:


> It could be how it was set up or that the UK sent rookie Typhoon pilots to the Anatolian Eagle. The typhoon's avionics and maneuverability/performance is far beyond an F-16.
> 
> Anyway i found the video AE-09/2 Training
> 
> YouTube - ?????? Anatolian Eagle 09 2
> Typhoons take off at 6:12 after the F-4s.
> 
> PAF was not in this one though. So unless it was part of the exchange program idk where else they would encounter typhoons.
> 
> 
> AE-07/2 Training was the only one PAF and the UK both joined.



While I am not going to comment on the content of the interview, Italians have flown their "leased" F-16s against their own Typhoons. What they found out was that in low level profiles, the F-16 could handle the Typhoon well enough in close in combat, however at medium and higher altitudes, Typhoon's superior TWR helped. A couple of things to be mindful of is that Italians fly loaned A/Bs which are blk15 ADFs of the USAF and do not have the latest avionics nor updated queuing system and HOBS AAMs.

The point made was about DACT at close range. The USAF thinks it can handle the Typhoon in close in combat even with F-15s (which is less maneuverable than the F-16s) if equipped with JHMCS. Despite Typhoon's Captor PD radars range, its standoff reach is the same as what is available to any aircraft flying an AIM-120C5 class BVRAAM. At higher altitude, the Typhoon could very well maneuver into a more favorable position, but that is something that has to be exploited (at least the RAF pilots are fully capable of exploiting that as they get used to the type).

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## Jigs

blain2 said:


> While I am not going to comment on the content of the interview, Italians have flown their "leased" F-16s against their own Typhoons. What they found out was that in low level profiles, the F-16 could handle the Typhoon well enough in close in combat, however at medium and higher altitudes, Typhoon's superior TWR helped. A couple of things to be mindful of is that Italians fly loaned A/Bs which are blk15 ADFs of the USAF and do not have the latest avionics nor updated queuing system and HOBS AAMs.
> 
> The point made was about DACT at close range. The USAF thinks it can handle the Typhoon in close in combat even with F-15s (which is less maneuverable than the F-16s) if equipped with JHMCS. Despite Typhoon's Captor PD radars range, its standoff reach is the same as what is available to any aircraft flying an AIM-120C5 class BVRAAM. At higher altitude, the Typhoon could very well maneuver into a more favorable position, but that is something that has to be exploited (at least the RAF pilots are fully capable of exploiting that as they get used to the type).



This all of course depends on the pilots as was the case with the SU-30MKIs at Red Flag. Typhoons can be exploited just like the F-16 can be exploited. The typhoon does have the overall advantage in a air to air engagement though.

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## blain2

Jigs said:


> This all of course depends on the pilots as was the case with the SU-30MKIs at Red Flag. Typhoons can be exploited just like the F-16 can be exploited. The typhoon does have the overall advantage in a air to air engagement though.



Part of the advantage is due to TWR etc. If the F-16 finds the Typhoon in a close in situation at a favourable altitude, then the F-16 is at equal footing. This was the point of the Italians. Someone who knows about the strengths and weaknesses of both platforms (like the Italians) would ensure that Typhoon does not play to F-16's strength and on the other hand the F-16 pilot would try to ensure that the fight stays at an altitude where the F-16 has sufficient energy to keep up with the Typhoon.

Secondly, this is in the WVR arena, in BVR, I think the newer versions of F-16s with AIM-120C5s/Ds and updated radars would pose considerable challenge to the Typhoons.

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## Jigs

blain2 said:


> Part of the advantage is due to TWR etc. If the F-16 finds the Typhoon in a close in situation at a favourable altitude, then the F-16 is at equal footing. This was the point of the Italians. Someone who knows about the strengths and weaknesses of both platforms (like the Italians) would ensure that Typhoon does not play to F-16's strength and on the other hand the F-16 pilot would try to ensure that the fight stays at an altitude where the F-16 has sufficient energy to keep up with the Typhoon.
> 
> Secondly, this is in the WVR arena, in BVR, I think the newer versions of F-16s with AIM-120C5s/Ds and updated radars would pose considerable challenge to the Typhoons.



Well the Block 60s would certainly be a threat anything below won't as Eurofighters will have Meteor integration which i would put above the AIM-120C version. Plus the CAESAR radar would rival and possibly pass up the AN/APG-80 AESA.

IF you give the same pilot the same flight hours in both aircraft he would end up being a bigger threat in the Eurofighter then the F-16.

The Typhoon is still a maturing platform so give it sometime.


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## owais.usmani



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## blain2

Jigs said:


> Well the Block 60s would certainly be a threat anything below won't as Eurofighters will have Meteor integration which i would put above the AIM-120C version. Plus the CAESAR radar would rival and possibly pass up the AN/APG-80 AESA.
> 
> IF you give the same pilot the same flight hours in both aircraft he would end up being a bigger threat in the Eurofighter then the F-16.
> 
> The Typhoon is still a maturing platform so give it sometime.



Jigs, Both CAESAR and Meteor integration are down the line (latter not before 2015, years after AIM-120D induction, and CAESAR is even farther off). If you speak about what current Typhoon operators are using, their BVR capabilities are in the same league as those of the blk-50/60 F-16s. In the future, F-16s would also be fielding AIM-120Ds which would give them even longer reach in terms of operational BVR AAMs. Most of the capabilities that are being envisaged for the Typhoon to fulfill its multirole, are already available with the newer blocks of F-16. Yes in certain areas Typhoon may have better options, however, overall, the difference isn't really that great.

Typhoon is a nice aircraft but about 15 years too late. This is something that many in Europe are saying themselves too. Typhoon has yet to attain a full MR capability and if (some countries are not even bothering with a MR configuration) and when it does, it will happen around the same time as some of these very nations will be receiving their F-35s. 

There are too many jobs and too much European pride riding the Eurofighter program for it to be shelved now in view of what is available to Europe in the form of the F-35.

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## M8R

I agree with Blain - Europe should have started 5th generation fighter project instead of wasting money on typhoon just for pride.Should have just bought some F-15's from US.Right now Eurofighter Does not have AESA/Meteor..etc.


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## TOPGUN

So therefore infact it was only two Pakistani pilots...in one f-16 D while the other D model and C model were flown by american pilots.. never the less very glad the birds are home can't wait to get them all.


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## Jigs

blain2 said:


> Jigs, Both CAESAR and Meteor integration are down the line (latter not before 2015, years after AIM-120D induction, and CAESAR is even farther off). If you speak about what current Typhoon operators are using, their BVR capabilities are in the same league as those of the blk-50/60 F-16s. In the future, F-16s would also be fielding AIM-120Ds which would give them even longer reach in terms of operational BVR AAMs. Most of the capabilities that are being envisaged for the Typhoon to fulfill its multirole, are already available with the newer blocks of F-16. Yes in certain areas Typhoon may have better options, however, overall, the difference isn't really that great.
> 
> Typhoon is a nice aircraft but about 15 years too late. This is something that many in Europe are saying themselves too. Typhoon has yet to attain a full MR capability and if (some countries are not even bothering with a MR configuration) and when it does, it will happen around the same time as some of these very nations will be receiving their F-35s.
> 
> There are too many jobs and too much European pride riding the Eurofighter program for it to be shelved now in view of what is available to Europe in the form of the F-35.



Like i said it is a maturing platform and is a better aircraft to the F-16 50/52. It will get better. Why do you think Turkey is considering it over our block 50/52+ aircraft along with the F-35. It is a better aircraft overall. Like i said the SU-30MKI is a better aircraft then the F-15 but USAF F-15 pilots were still able to get kills on it by exploiting it at times (Obviously the F-15C is better then the F-16 in A2A role) . The same goes for the F-16 so the F-16 is not the same nor better then the Typhoon. Plus eurofighter has AIM-120 integration which is a mute point when comparing it to USAF aircraft. Since they won't be seeing combat anyway with each other. F-16 is a great aircaft and can hold its own against 4.5 gen aircraft but it is inferior to the likes of the Typhoon and even more to that of the F-35.
In a low speed low altitude enviroment a F-18 can make a F-16 look silly. Yet Overall i would still pick the F-16 over the F-18 just like i would pick the Typhoon over the F-16 Which is why nations moving forward will have a mix of the F-35 and the typhoon as their top aircraft. 

I am confused about your point are you saying the Typhoon is a failed aircraft and people should leave it and grab up F-16s and the rest go for F-35s ? If anything is a failed aircraft it is the Rafael for obvious reasons. Your point about the pilots scoring kills on Typhoons doesn't mean much. 





 By that logic it means the T-38 is a better aircraft then a F-22 because it scored a kill on it.

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## sancho

blain2 said:


> Jigs, Both CAESAR and Meteor integration are down the line (latter not before 2015, years after AIM-120D induction, and CAESAR is even farther off). *If you speak about what current Typhoon operators are using, their BVR capabilities are in the same league as those of the blk-50/60 F-16s.* In the future, F-16s would also be fielding AIM-120Ds which would give them even longer reach in terms of operational BVR AAMs.



Aren't you contradicting yourself here? You said:



blain2 said:


> *Despite Typhoon's Captor PD radars range, its standoff reach is the same as what is available to any aircraft flying an AIM-120C5 class BVRAAM.*



Although the actual F16 and EF might have the same missiles, the EF radar is more capable than F16 block 50/52 for sure, possibly even equal to Block 60s. Not to mention that the EF should have the better RCS and all together the better BVR performance.


Also: 



blain2 said:


> What they found out was that in low level profiles, the F-16 could handle the Typhoon well enough in close in combat, *however at medium and higher altitudes, Typhoon's superior TWR helped.*



So only because the F16 might have some chances on lower altitudes, you can't say it would be overall equal to EF in close combat. It's just the other way around, *the only chance* that an F16 has in A2A aginast the EF is a low level close combat!


I agree that the EF is too late, but in A2A there are not many fighters that are close to it. Where it lacks are multi role capabilities, no doubt about that and that's why it lost nearly all competitions.


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## owais.usmani



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## Super Hornet




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## Super Hornet



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## air marshal



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## blain2

Jigs said:


> Like i said it is a maturing platform and is a better aircraft to the F-16 50/52. It will get better.



Given money and time to any platform, it is bound to get better. The point of my post is that countries looking to make a decision about the next generation MR platform will either go for those that are already fully MR (F-16 C/D/E/F, F/A-18 etc or even Rafale) or will wait out for the F-35 (if they have appropriate relations with the US). In reality the Typhoon is essentially a lame duck along with the Rafale. Its a good aircraft, but one with capabilities that should have arrived at the beginning of this decade and not at the end when the market will slowly be flooded with 5th gen aircraft). When Air Forces purchase the current generation F-16s, they are paying a lot less than the Typhoon and are getting full MR capability with the Vipers. This is not so with the Typhoon. Countries that are operating the type had committed to do so thus they have them in their inventory albeit with massively reduced orders (consider RAF, Luftwaffe etc. on how they have reduced their orders for the type).



> Why do you think Turkey is considering it over our block 50/52+ aircraft along with the F-35. It is a better aircraft overall.



How about diversification or ToT? Technical speak aside, there are other considerations at play here as well which include politics (over dependence on US weapon systems for an increasingly assertive Turkish foreign policy may be a driver for this consideration). Also its a better aircraft by what margin? Are we saying that missions that Typhoon can fulfill cannot be taken up by F-16 C/D/E/Fs?




> Like i said the SU-30MKI is a better aircraft then the F-15 but USAF F-15 pilots were still able to get kills on it by exploiting it at times (Obviously the F-15C is better then the F-16 in A2A role) .



Claiming one to be better than the other is an opinion. Not something factual. The USAF pilots will swear by their F-15s. Also F-15C is not better than the F-16 in A2A. I have chatted with USAF Pilots who have flown F-16s against the F-15s and they tell you right off that in close in combat, F-16s can more than hold their own against all of the legacy line up of USAF and USN fighters (this includes F-15s, F/A-18s and even the F-14s when the Vipers have flown against the Tomcats).

The idea of the F-15 is to take advantage of its long range radar and take shots with the AIM-120 to whittle down the opponent's numbers. Once close in, the F-15s are pretty good, but the F-16 with its smaller size is even better. You can even see references to this at F-16.net where there are posts by folks who have flown DACT against the F-15s.



> The same goes for the F-16 so the F-16 is not the same nor better then the Typhoon. Plus eurofighter has AIM-120 integration which is a mute point when comparing it to USAF aircraft.



No its not. Currently the RAF Typhoons are flying with AIM-120Bs (as are the Italian ones). None of the in-service Typhoons are integrated with AIM-120Cs whereas all F-16 Blk-50/52s are fully capable of AIM-120Cs. Just last month, three Luftwaffe Typhoons were sent to Scottland to undergo AIM-120C integration work and test firing. So even on this count, while one can say the Typhoons are AIM-120 capable, they are not at the same level as that of F-16s/F-15s. The Meteor integration is 5 years out.



> Since they won't be seeing combat anyway with each other. F-16 is a great aircaft and can hold its own against 4.5 gen aircraft but it is inferior to the likes of the Typhoon and even more to that of the F-35.
> In a low speed low altitude enviroment a F-18 can make a F-16 look silly. Yet Overall i would still pick the F-16 over the F-18 just like i would pick the Typhoon over the F-16 Which is why nations moving forward will have a mix of the F-35 and the typhoon as their top aircraft.



Typhoon is a great aircraft, but in its niche area. Its not an all-rounder, it certainly has a lot of integration work ahead of it and my primary point is that by the time all of this comes together for the Typhoon, so many countries will already be operating a type from the next generation.

To your point about Typhoon and F-35, I will put my money on it that aside from the NATO Airforces that have already committed to both, not many others will go for Typhoon if they are already in line to acquire the F-35.



> I am confused about your point are you saying the Typhoon is a failed aircraft and people should leave it and grab up F-16s and the rest go for F-35s ? If anything is a failed aircraft it is the Rafael for obvious reasons. Your point about the pilots scoring kills on Typhoons doesn't mean much.



My point is a simple one, given the advertised capabilities and the fact that they are yet to fully integrate these advertised capabilities, the Typhoon is an aircraft which is too late. The F-35 will eat a significant chunk out of the Typhoon and Rafale market for this very reason. The F-16 and F/A-18 have their sweet spot because most countries buying them are getting the full capabilities suite in time and at a cost which is much cheaper than that of the Typhoon (this is more so the case with F-16).

The point about pilot scoring kills was to drive home a point from a neutral source (Italians who fly both types). And that point was that as old as the F-16 blk15s are, they can still do alright in certain flight regimes against the Typhoon even when not equipped with newer avionics like JHMCS which is bound to increase the effectiveness of the Viper against the Typhoon. The USAF is back in Spain to take on their Typhoons with F-15s equipped with JHMCS/AIM-9x since they got spanked by the Spaniards without these last year. Had the Typhoon been so one-sided, the USAF would have decided not to have another go. So this is all relative. 


> YouTube- F-22 Raptor VS T-38 Talon By that logic it means the T-38 is a better aircraft then a F-22 because it scored a kill on it.


Good find, but certainly not the point I was trying to make.

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## blain2

sancho said:


> Aren't you contradicting yourself here? You said:


I was being generous when I said that they have equal BVR capabilities. The fact is as above. The latest that Typhoons have is AIM-120B integration. The F-16s are already flying with AIM-120C5s which provide greater range and better terminal guidance. 



> Although the actual F16 and EF might have the same missiles, the EF radar is more capable than F16 block 50/52 for sure, possibly even equal to Block 60s. Not to mention that the EF should have the better RCS and all together the better BVR performance.



Currently at least, the Typhoon does not even use the same BVR AAMs as those available to blks 50/60 F-16s. Secondly, APG-68 has a pretty decent range that is overlooked by folks. The range of the radars in both cases exceeds the theoretical range of the BVR AAMs in question. So this is a moot point.




> Also:
> 
> 
> 
> So only because the F16 might have some chances on lower altitudes, you can't say it would be overall equal to EF in close combat. It's just the other way around, *the only chance* that an F16 has in A2A aginast the EF is a low level close combat!



Yes but these Italian aircraft were older blk-15s with less powerful engines and no JHMCS and HOBS AAMs like the AIM-9x. Lack of energy and less TWR is helped by being able to take a shot against an adversary with higher thrust and maneuverability from various angles. The Italians did not have that, however JHMCS would afford this capability.



> I agree that the EF is too late, but in A2A there are not many fighters that are close to it. Where it lacks are multi role capabilities, no doubt about that and that's why it lost nearly all competitions.



But therein lies its Achilles heal. Nobody wants a very expensive dedicated air superiority fighter that does not offer any significant 5th generation advantages. Air Forces want to cut back on opex if the initial capex allows them an aircraft that not only ensures future investment protection, but also allows robust multirole capability.

My intention is not to put down Typhoon as a bad aircraft. Its beautiful, potent (in some very specific roles), expensive yet the biggest issue is that it claims to offer (now and in the future) what other aircraft already have.

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## umair86

blain2 said:


> I was being generous when I said that they have equal BVR capabilities. The fact is as above. The latest that Typhoons have is AIM-120B integration. The F-16s are already flying with AIM-120C5s which provide greater range and better terminal guidance.
> 
> 
> 
> Currently at least, the Typhoon does not even use the same BVR AAMs as those available to blks 50/60 F-16s. Secondly, APG-68 has a pretty decent range that is overlooked by folks. The range of the radars in both cases exceeds the theoretical range of the BVR AAMs in question. So this is a moot point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but these Italian aircraft were older blk-15s with less powerful engines and no JHMCS and HOBS AAMs like the AIM-9x. Lack of energy and less TWR is helped by being able to take a shot against an adversary with higher thrust and maneuverability from various angles. The Italians did not have that, however JHMCS would afford this capability.
> 
> 
> 
> But therein lies its Achilles heal. Nobody wants a very expensive dedicated air superiority fighter that does not offer any significant 5th generation advantages. Air Forces want to cut back on opex if the initial capex allows them an aircraft that not only ensures future investment protection, but also allows robust multirole capability.
> 
> My intention is not to put down Typhoon as a bad aircraft. Its beautiful, potent (in some very specific roles), expensive yet the biggest issue is that it claims to offer (now and in the future) what other aircraft already have.



Italian Falcons are Blk 15 ADF Blk 15 enjoys the best TWR of any falcon Block.


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## blain2

umair86 said:


> Italian Falcons are Blk 15 ADF Blk 15 enjoys the best TWR of any falcon Block.



I believe this is true however Typhoon's TWR is better.


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## Dr sim

Going through this thread i am just wondering why is pakistan buying F-16 block 52 coz (until they r upgraded to block 60) they cant handle Su-30 MKI their most likely adversary.And by the time they will be upgraded to block 60 india will have PAK FGFA which is a generation ahead.
So my question is why not save the hard earned money and buy something technically advanced from China, in future(J XX)?


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## owcc

F16 bl 52 is a beautiful fighter but its soon going to be a geeneration behind in technology in the coming decade.It is a good stopgap measure for a defensive need but it should not be an end of force modernization itself.


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## MastanKhan

Dr sim said:


> Going through this thread i am just wondering why is pakistan buying F-16 block 52 coz (until they r upgraded to block 60) they cant handle Su-30 MKI their most likely adversary.And by the time they will be upgraded to block 60 india will have PAK FGFA which is a generation ahead.
> So my question is why not save the hard earned money and buy something technically advanced from China, in future(J XX)?



Hi,

That is debatable if the Blk 52 can out do the su 30----and there is no doubt that it will. The blk 52 is good for the next ten years---it is just the numbers that we need to add up on.


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## Areesh

Dr sim said:


> Going through this thread i am just wondering why is pakistan buying F-16 block 52 coz (until they r upgraded to block 60) they cant handle Su-30 MKI their most likely adversary.*And by the time they will be upgraded to block 60 india will have PAK FGFA which is a generation ahead.*
> So my question is why not save the hard earned money and buy something technically advanced from China, in future(J XX)?



You aren't getting PAK FA at least in the next decade. May be after 2020.


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## owcc

that may be true but yur definitely not going to be offered f22 in the decade either.


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## Areesh

owcc said:


> that may be true but yur definitely not going to be offered f22 in the decade either.



We don't need one either.


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## Dr sim

Correct me if i m mistaken but from what I know Su-30 MKI is considered in the same league as rafale, typhoon etc and also it outdid F-15 of USA which is far more advanced than any F-16 out there right now. Just one of the many facts, I would like to mention here is the BVR capability of Su-30MKI which is better than F-16.


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## Mani2020

Dr sim said:


> Correct me if i m mistaken but from what I know Su-30 MKI is considered in the same league as rafale, typhoon etc and also it outdid *F-15 of USA which is far more advanced than any F-16 out there right now.* Just one of the many facts, I would like to mention here is the BVR capability of Su-30MKI which is better than F-16.



f-15 is basically for strike missions , And in A2A role its less capable than the f-16 block 50/52 as previously explained by *blain2*.You should go through his posts on previous page.It would be a nice read


Su-30Mki has a powerful radar which give it a bit of edge but it should be compensated by the AWACS , and our F-16 c/d will carry Aim-120C5 missile which is itself a very good missile with a range of 120km

And above all f-16 is a tested and tried platform

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## Dr sim

hi there. I find it a bit naive when you say that Rafale/Typhoon do not have a bright future. First of all , only two countries are currently capable enuf to develop a true 5 th generation fighter jet i.e the USA and Russia. So I dont agree with you when u say that the market will be flooded with 5th generation fighter jets. Also F-35 comes at a hefty price as compared to Rafale/typhoon. I cannot think of many developing countries which can afford it.ToT is another issue. they wont do ToT to even Britain. In 1990 when India was going through an economic crises we could not buy Sukhois or anything evn though they were available
So the point I m trying to make is that idealistically you are right in saying that Rafale etc should have arrived a decade earlier but reality is far different. There are lot of constraints involved so you cannot just compare aircrafts on basis of their capabilities without reflecting on other issues simultaneously. Thanks


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## Manticore

The Rafale and Typhoon offer already the same things and even more in their *planned basic configurations* and they have a lot of growth potential.
Sensor fusion is a technology already realized for Rafale and Typhoon and it will be further enhanced in the future. I wouldn't bet on the F-35 being much superior in that direction. The primary advantage of the F-35 will be its stealth capabilities. But the aircraft will also offer a level of technology in its basic configuration which will be only matched in the *evolved versions* of Rafale or Typhoon.

detection
F-16C (RCS = 1.2 m2): 260 ~ 310 km
JAS39 (RCS = 0.5 m2): 210 ~ 250 km
Rafale (RCS = 0.1~0.2 m2): 140 ~ 200 km
EF2K (RCS = 0.05~0.1 m2): 120 ~ 170 km 

[taken from another international forum]


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## sancho

blain2 said:


> *I was being generous when I said that they have equal BVR capabilities.* The fact is as above. The latest that Typhoons have is AIM-120B integration. The F-16s are already flying with AIM-120C5s which provide greater range and better terminal guidance.
> 
> Currently at least, *the Typhoon does not even use the same BVR AAMs* as those available to blks 50/60 F-16s. Secondly, *APG-68 has a pretty decent range* that is overlooked by folks. The range of the radars in both cases exceeds the theoretical range of the BVR AAMs in question. So this is a moot point.
> 
> Yes but these Italian aircraft were older *blk-15s with less powerful engines* and no JHMCS and HOBS AAMs like the AIM-9x. Lack of energy and less TWR is helped by being able to take a shot against an adversary with higher thrust and maneuverability from various angles. The Italians did not have that, however JHMCS would afford this capability.




Yes you are too generous towards the F16 and its capabilies! 

The F16 is not and never was meant to be an air superiority fighter, similar to F15, EF, or Flankers and that's why it lacks in many fields compared to them in this role. That's why even the air forces of America, Israel, S.Korea, or Singapore, that has latest versions of the F 16, operates more capable F15s in the air superiority role, or why PLAAF operates numbers of J11 and Su 30s, above the J10s.

The F16s is a good fighter in the medium class, but should not be overestimated. Yes in WVR, with its smaller size and manouverability it will have some chances (like you said possibly in lower altitudes), but that doesn't makes it equal in A2A, because the these air superiority fighters still have more advantages like radar range, t/w ratios, speed, more capable EWS, more weapons, or in case of EF also lower RCSs and manouverability. That's the same reason why the US still developed a bigger F22 twin engine air superiority fighter and a F16 successor (F35) only in addition to it.


Now to your points, AIM 120 C5 is available for the EF since the trance 2 block 5 upgrade and the Royal Air Force is using these missiles for their EFs and Tornados:


> Eurofighter Typhoon to be Showcased at Aero India 2007
> 
> *Dated 26/1/2007*
> 
> According to Eurofighter GmbH CEO, Aloysius Rauen...
> 
> ...&#8220;We have achieved certification for unlimited air-to-air carefree handling with the available air-to-air missiles AMRAAM *including the latest C5 version in service with the Royal Air Force*, ASRAAM, IRIS-T, and the proven AIM-9L plus external fuel tanks. We continue by delivering the air-to surface capability demanded by the customer.



Eurofighter Typhoon to be Showcased at Aero India 2007 | India Defence

The only reason why the other customers keeps older versions of AIM120 is, because they wait for the Meteor missile!


Next point is the radar range, what is a decent range for APG 68 in your opinion?
Is it comparable to the estimated 160 - 185 Km range for targets of a RCS between 3 and 5m2, of EFs actual Captor M radar? Detection of bigger aircrafts are expected at ranges up to 370Km, it tracks 20 targets at a time and engages 6 of them, which brings it even close to Bars ranges and capabilities!

And as umair86 mentioned, the F16 Block 15 are generally counted to the most manouverable F16 versions. The later has more thrust, but also clearly more weight, which makes it very unlikely to compete against latest delta cancard designs, which was reported in the past too. In the fighter competition in Singapore for example EF was fielded against F16 B52s and according to some sources won 3:0. In an exercise before Red Flag, the Rafale F2 was fielded (in WVR combats) against US F16s (also older versions) and the Rafale won 3:1. So just because of some thrust impovements, the newer F16s won't have a chance against the EF, which puts all the hope at JHMCS + AIM 9X. But as I said before, these air superiority fighters are also geared with latest avionics and EW Systems, which means even that combo won't give the F16 a clear advantage.


Once again in A2A compared to latest F16 blocks, the EF offers:

- high t/w ratio
- more manouverable design
- lower RCS
- better radar
- latest EWS and avionics
- same missiles

So I don't see where the latest F16 (especially without AESA), will be comparable to it in A2A.


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## Chogy

Radar _detection _range is definitely overrated, IMO. Far more important than range is the ability to sort, to break out and target individual entities within a gaggle, and that relies more on beamwidth (usually, but not always, a function of antenna diameter), than it does on raw emitted power. 

It has always been the great challenge of a modern flight of fighter aircraft to target separate bandits, and not simply have everyone glom on to the most obvious target, which absorbs 8 AIM-120's while the remainder are unscathed. I believe the modern F-16 will do this with efficiency.

Combined with the AIM-120 and the AIM-9M, it is a package that can do it all, for many years to come. The missile is fully as important as the platform, and both of these are killers, with the AIM-9 series being absolutely lethal with a very high Pk.

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## Chogy

I meant to add, modern datalinking technology makes the sort easier, but I do not know if the PAF birds have any variety of this capability. Maybe someone knows.

Regardless, the best datalinking methodology in the world is only as good as the individual radars' ability to break out formations.


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## M8R

Chogy, Pakistan Air Force operates Erieye which supports Datalinking based on Link-16 Platform.Pakistan new F-16's are equipped with Link-16 while older F-16's will be equipped with them as they're going through MLU now.

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## fatman17

AMERICAS, THE 
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 


Jane's Defence Weekly 


*Pakistan receives its first F-16C/D Block 52 fighters*

Farhan Bokhari JDW Correspondent - Jacobabad, southern Pakistan

US and Pakistani officials commemorated the delivery of the first three of a batch of 18 F-16C/D Block 52 fighter aircraft to Pakistan at a remote Pakistan Air Force (PAF) base on 27 June. 

During the induction ceremony at Shehbaz Air Base near Jacobabad, US Air Force (USAF) Chief of Staff General Norton Schwartz announced the "US intent to stand by Pakistan over the long term as an important ally and friend". 

In a deal worth USD1.4 billion, the latest batch of F-16s are the first new fighters to be sold to Pakistan since a batch of 40 new F-16A/B models were sold to the country in the early 1980s. 

The delivery comes against the backdrop of Pakistan's emergence as the main US ally against the occupation of Afghanistan by the former Soviet Union. 

From 1990 the sale of hardware to Pakistan was suspended as part of US sanctions against the country because of its effort to build a nuclear bomb, which culminated with the country's first nuclear tests in 1998. The relationship resumed after the 2001 terrorist attacks on New York prompted Pakistan to join the US-led alliance against terror. 

The US has since given older F-16A/B to Pakistan declared as Excess Defence Articles by the USAF. According to Pakistani officials, the PAF currently flies at least 45 of the older platforms and is presently lobbying the US to deliver between 14 to 18 more of the same variant, which along with the existing F-16A/Bs will undergo midlife upgrades. 

At the 27 June ceremony Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Pakistan's Air Force Chief of Staff, said: "This technology will not only eliminate our existing limitations [during] night operations, but [will] also enable the PAF to meet its mission more effectively. The mission of the PAF is to maintain peace with honour in the region." He added: "Should this primary task fail we will use all assets and all resources at our disposal, including these aircraft, to defend our country against any internal or external threat." 

Western defence analysts speaking to Jane's in Islamabad said that while the new F-16s will help overcome unease among Pakistan's senior generals over ties to the US, the relationship still suffers from a lack of trust, which has forced Pakistan since the 1990 US sanctions to draw closer to China. 

"Pakistan's foremost fighter development with China to co-produce the JF-17 and a deal in the pipeline to buy two squadrons of Chinese J-10 [FC-20] fighter aircraft all point towards the trust gap with the US and increasing reliance on China," one Western defence analyst told Jane's .


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## fatman17

AMERICAS, THE 
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 


Jane's Defence Weekly 


*Pakistan receives its first F-16C/D Block 52 fighters*

Farhan Bokhari JDW Correspondent - Jacobabad, southern Pakistan

US and Pakistani officials commemorated the delivery of the first three of a batch of 18 F-16C/D Block 52 fighter aircraft to Pakistan at a remote Pakistan Air Force (PAF) base on 27 June. 

During the induction ceremony at Shehbaz Air Base near Jacobabad, US Air Force (USAF) Chief of Staff General Norton Schwartz announced the "US intent to stand by Pakistan over the long term as an important ally and friend". 

In a deal worth USD1.4 billion, the latest batch of F-16s are the first new fighters to be sold to Pakistan since a batch of 40 new F-16A/B models were sold to the country in the early 1980s. 

The delivery comes against the backdrop of Pakistan's emergence as the main US ally against the occupation of Afghanistan by the former Soviet Union. 

From 1990 the sale of hardware to Pakistan was suspended as part of US sanctions against the country because of its effort to build a nuclear bomb, which culminated with the country's first nuclear tests in 1998. The relationship resumed after the 2001 terrorist attacks on New York prompted Pakistan to join the US-led alliance against terror. 

The US has since given older F-16A/B to Pakistan declared as Excess Defence Articles by the USAF. According to Pakistani officials, the PAF currently flies at least 45 of the older platforms and is presently lobbying the US to deliver between 14 to 18 more of the same variant, which along with the existing F-16A/Bs will undergo midlife upgrades. 

At the 27 June ceremony Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Pakistan's Air Force Chief of Staff, said: "This technology will not only eliminate our existing limitations [during] night operations, but [will] also enable the PAF to meet its mission more effectively. The mission of the PAF is to maintain peace with honour in the region." He added: "Should this primary task fail we will use all assets and all resources at our disposal, including these aircraft, to defend our country against any internal or external threat." 

Western defence analysts speaking to Jane's in Islamabad said that while the new F-16s will help overcome unease among Pakistan's senior generals over ties to the US, the relationship still suffers from a lack of trust, which has forced Pakistan since the 1990 US sanctions to draw closer to China. 

"Pakistan's foremost fighter development with China to co-produce the JF-17 and a deal in the pipeline to buy two squadrons of Chinese J-10 [FC-20] fighter aircraft all point towards the trust gap with the US and increasing reliance on China," one Western defence analyst told Jane's .

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## fatman17

ASIA PACIFIC 
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2010 

 
Jane's Defence Weekly 


*Pakistan calls on US to speed up UAV, F-16 provision*

Jon Grevatt Jane's Asia-Pacific Industry Reporter

Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari has urged the United States to accelerate the proposed provision to Islamabad of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and mid-life upgrade (MLU) kits for its F-16 fighter aircraft. 

A statement issued by the Pakistani government said Zardari told US Air Force Chief of Staff General Norton A Schwartz during a meeting on 28 June that the equipment was necessary for Pakistan to become more independent in efforts against insurgents. 

Gen Schwartz was in Pakistan to hand over the first three F-16C/D Block 52 fighters: more capable versions of the Fighting Falcon that can execute night-time and precision-strike missions. A total of 18 aircraft are on order. 

The government statement said: "President [Zardari] thanked the US government for the timely delivery of F-16 aircraft. ... The president [also] urged for mid-life upgrading of our F-16s and said that defence collaboration between the two countries must remain strong. 

"The president urged the US administration for early transfer of drone technology to Pakistan for its effective use by our own security forces to curb militancy and for its wider public acceptability." 

Jane's reported in March 2010 that the US Department of Defense (DoD) is exploring options for supplying Pakistan with 12 RQ-7 Shadow UAVs so that the Pakistani military can have its own intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance assets. It is expected that the UAVs will arrive in Pakistan during the next year. 

The MLU kits for the Pakistan Air Force's (PAF's) F-16s are anticipated to be delivered sooner. In May the US Air Force awarded a USD325 million contract to Lockheed Martin to provide 55 kits for PAF F-16 fighter aircraft: 45 MLU kits will be for the PAF's F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft with the remainder for its F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft. 

The F-16 MLU deal is financed through the US Foreign Military Sales programme, under which Pakistan receives around USD300 million per year. 

The UAV procurement, which is estimated to cost around USD150 million, will be funded through the Pakistan Counterinsurgency Capability Fund: an aid package established in 2009 to provide USD2.8 billion to Pakistan over five years in an effort to build a counter-insurgency capability.

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## MenOfHonor

hasnain0099 said:


> Congress technically has 30 days to veto the $5.1bn arms deal with Islamabad but it has never exercised that power on a major arms sale yet.
> 
> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:
> 
> Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s - $3 billion
> 
> The package for Pakistan's new F-16s also includes:
> 
> * 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft with either the F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs) and APG-68(V)9 radars;
> * 7 spare F100-PW-229 IPE or F110-GE-129 IPE engines;
> * 7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets;
> * 36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
> * 36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II;
> * 36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircraft's sides to give them extra range;
> * 36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; DID has covered the tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems;
> * 36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems;
> * 36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
> * 36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM;
> * 1 Unit Level Trainer;
> 
> 
> Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability.
> 
> The principal contractors will be:
> 
> * Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, TX;
> * Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control, Dallas, TX;
> * BAE Advanced Systems Greenlawn, NY;
> * Boeing Corporation Seattle, WA;
> * Boeing Integrated Defense Systems: St Louis, MO; Long Beach, CA; San Diego, CA;
> * Raytheon Company: Lexington, MA; Goleta, CA;
> * Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, AZ;
> * Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX;
> * Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD;
> * United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT; or
> * General Electric Aircraft Engines in Cincinnati, OH. There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support and program management of the aircraft.
> 
> 
> Item 2: Weapons for F-16C/D Block 50/52 Aircraft - $650 Million
> 
> # The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);
> # 12 AMRAAM training missiles
> # these have seeker warheads, but lack engines;
> # 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X;
> # 240 LAU-129/A Launchers
> # these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles;
> # 500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits;
> # 1600 Enhanced-GBU-12/24 GBUs;
> # 800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs;
> # 700 BLU-109 2000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse; and,
> # Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares, and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications, and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability will also be provided.
> 
> The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $650 million.
> 
> The principal contractors will be:
> 
> * BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY;
> * Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX;
> * Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX;
> * Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX; and,
> * Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD. There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft.
> 
> 
> Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits - $1.3 billion
> 
> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:
> 
> * APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar;
> * Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
> * AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
> * AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
> * Have Quick I/II Radios;
> * Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT);
> * SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
> * Reconnaissance pod capability;
> * Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (for training);
> 
> 
> MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits;
> 
> * 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
> * 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
> * 1 Unit Level Trainer;
> * 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets.
> 
> 
> Also included are radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support.
> 
> The estimated cost is $1.3 billion.
> 
> According to the DSCA, Pakistan intends to purchase the MLU Program equipment "to enhance survivability, communications connectivity, and extend the useful life of its F-16A/B fighter aircraft. The modifications and upgrades in this proposed sale will permit Pakistan's F-16A/B squadron to operate safely and enhance Pakistan's conventional deterrent capability. Pakistan's air fleet can readily use these updates to enhance and extend the life of its aircraft."
> 
> The principal contractors will be:
> 
> * BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY;
> * Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX;
> * Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX;
> * Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX; and,
> * Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD.
> 
> 
> 
> Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR - $151 Million
> 
> The third contract involves Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million.
> 
> More specifically, the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of:
> 
> * 14 F100-PW-220E engines;
> * 14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits;
> * De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft;
> * Support equipment;
> * Software development/integration;
> * Modification kits;
> * Spares, and repair parts;
> * Flight test instrumentation;
> * Publications and technical documentation;
> * Personnel training and training equipment;
> * U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program.
> 
> 
> The principal contractors will be:
> 
> * Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX; and,
> * United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT.
> 
> 
> 
> Potential Controversies
> 
> The DSCA has said that "Release of this system would not significantly reduce India's quantitative or qualitative military advantage". India disagrees and military experts in Delhi will likely note that the same equipment (GPS, targeting pods, bunker-busters) that could potentially find uses against al-Qaeda terrorists in Pakistan's "lawless frontier" could also be used in precision strikes on India's military facilities in the event of war.
> 
> The DSCA counters that release of the F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft to Pakistan "will neither affect the regional balance of power nor introduce a new technology as this level of capability or higher already exists in other countries in the region". India does operate more advanced SU-30MKI aircraft with R-77 "AMRAAMski" missiles, advanced avionics, et. al.; these are superior in range, armament, and maneuverability to Pakistan's F-16s and will remain so. Meanwhile, India's $7-10 billion MRCA competition is certain to introduce 125-200 aircraft that are certain to be more advanced than the F-16 Block 50/52.
> 
> The U.S. DSCA adds in its submission to Congress that "The modification of the engines and Falcon UP/STAR structural updates will provide capable F-16s that can be used for close air support in ongoing operations contributing to the GWOT." The DSCA also cites the June 2004 designation of Pakistan as a Major Non-North Atlantic Treaty Organization Ally in its submission. The British commander of NATO's ISAF force in Southern Afghanistan sees Pakistan's role in a rather different light, however; he recently noted that al-Qaeda in Afghanistan is still run out of Pakistan (specifically Quetta), with Pakistani knowledge and even support from Islamist elements in its security apparatus. Ah, the dynamics of counter-insurgency in tribal societies. Pakistan angrily denies this, of course.
> 
> India's objections to this sale have been muted thus far, and phrased carefully to emphasize their effect on India-Pakistan ties rather than India-U.S. ties. Meanwhile, President Bush's personal diplomacy approach has fostered a strong relationship with Gen. Musharraf that is inclined to view such requests favourably as part of the U.S.A.'s 3-corner balancing act in the region. Barring unusual circumstances, therefore, it's reasonable to expect this sale to go through with little more than a concerned speech or two in Congress.
> 
> Courtesy of Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA)



if they are spending more then 6 billion on f16 they are stupid they could have bought large quantity of saab gripian for that price with tot


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## fatman17

MenOfHonor said:


> if they are spending more then 6 billion on f16 they are stupid they could have bought large quantity of saab gripian for that price with tot



i see u r new on this forum!!!

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

fatman17 said:


> i see u r new on this forum!!!



Cholate bar hai , give money take chocolate bar , there is alot more to it then just having cash in your pocket


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## F-16.Net

Fourth Blk 52 F-16 handed over to the PAF. Anyone know the serial and if its a 'C' or 'D'?

http://tribune.com.pk/story/25793/pakistan-gets-fourth-f-16-jet/


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## bilal1219

F-16.Net said:


> Fourth Blk 52 F-16 handed over to the PAF. Anyone know the serial and if its a 'C' or 'D'?
> 
> Pakistan gets fourth F-16 jet &#8211; The Express Tribune



Its Not true. It says the rest of the 14 will be supplied next year. that dosent make any sense..


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## Indestructible

I don't think so. A single F16? Nah...they have to make stopovers in different countries and this takes (money?) a lot of planning. Dispatching is done in groups. Not in singals.


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## Quwa

The 4th one was delivered, this was also confirmed by PakDef directly.

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## fatman17

Press Releases 2010

Shahbaz Air Base, June 27, 2010 - U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan Anne Patterson, commemorates the delivery of the first three of 18 new F-16 aircraft to the Government of Pakistan in a speech during induction ceremony at Shahbaz Air Base near Jacobabad.

June 27, 2010

Islamabad - U.S. and Pakistani officials commemorated the delivery of the first three of 18 new F-16 aircraft to the Government of Pakistan from the United States during an induction ceremony today at Shahbaz Air Base near Jacobabad, Pakistan.

"The induction of these advanced F-16s is a historic milestone for U.S.-Pakistan relations - both a symbolic and tangible demonstration of our strong partnership and the U.S. intent to stand beside Pakistan over the long-term as an important ally and friend," said Amb. Anne Patterson, U.S. Ambassador to Pakistan. "These aircraft underscore the promise made by the United States to support Pakistan to achieve our mutual goals of defeating violent extremists and establishing peace and security."

U.S. and Pakistani officials attending the ceremony included Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Pakistan Air Force Chief of Air Staff; Amb. Patterson; U.S. Air Force Gen. Norton Schwartz, U.S. Air Force Chief of Staff; Air Marshal Mohammad Hassan, PAF Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations; U.S. Air Force Lt. Gen. Mike Hostage, U.S. Air Forces Central Command commander, and U.S. Navy Vice Adm. Michael LeFever, U.S. Defense Representative to Pakistan. Approximately 300 Pakistani and U.S. officials attended the event.

"Pakistan's new F-16s will give PAF pilots and Pakistan's military an unprecedented advantage against extremist groups who threaten Pakistan and the region by enabling precision targeting in all-weather conditions, during both day and night, while reducing potential for collateral damage," said Vice Adm. LeFever. "The aircraft will also enable increased tactical interoperability between the PAF, the U.S. Air Force and ISAF Coalition air forces - greatly bolstering our ability to jointly communicate, coordinate and work together to achieve common goals while boosting the PAF's status as a world-class air force."

The F-16 Block 52 represents the latest configuration of Lockheed Martin's 4th generation multirole fighter, offering additional fuel and payload capacity, new or improved avionics and sensors, and color cockpit displays with enhanced pilot/vehicle interfaces. The next batch of new F-16s is scheduled for delivery to Pakistan in August, with all 18 fighter aircraft arriving by January 2012.

In addition to the delivery of these new aircraft, the U.S. is working with the PAF to update 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the U.S. Foreign Military Financing security assistance program. When the updates are completed, these aircraft will have very similar capabilities to the new F-16s, to include advanced communications and a precision targeting system. The first batch of updated F-16s is scheduled to arrive in Pakistan in early 2012.

During the last three years, U.S. civilian and security assistance to Pakistan has totaled more than $4 billion. Assistance has included support for medical aid, school refurbishment, bridge and well reconstruction, food distribution, agricultural and education projects. In addition to the three new F-16 Block 52 fighter planes, other U.S. security assistance provided includes an earlier delivery of an additional 14 F-16 fighter aircraft, 10 Mi-17 and two Bell 412EP helicopters, two P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft, five fast patrol boats, 115 Howitzer self-propelled field artillery cannons, more than 450 vehicles for Pakistan's Frontier Corps, hundreds of night vision goggles, day/night scopes, radios, and thousands of protective vests and first-aid items for Pakistan's security forces. The U.S. also provided training for more than 370 Pakistani military officers in a wide range of leadership and development programs covering topics such as counterterrorism, intelligence, logistics, medical, flight safety, and military law.


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## Super Hornet

Mark Sien said:


> The 4th one was delivered, this was also confirmed by PakDef directly.



WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?THERE WAS NO NEWS ON TV OR ON THE NEWSPAPERS.


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## aliyusuf

This is the link of the above press release ...

Pakistan Air Force Inducts New U.S.-Provided F-16s into Fighter Fleet (06/27/2010) - U.S. Embassy Islamabad, Pakistan

Regards


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## theboss

No matter how much they try they cant dump Pakistan in Indian favour.
Thanks god to our geo-strategic position.


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## Areesh

Super Hornet said:


> WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?THERE WAS NO NEWS ON TV OR ON THE NEWSPAPERS.









He is right. Fourth one is also now in Pakistani colors.

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## hataf

Areesh said:


> He is right. Fourth one is also now in Pakistani colors.



any video of arrival

love to watch


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## hataf

MenOfHonor said:


> if they are spending more then 6 billion on f16 they are stupid they could have bought large quantity of saab gripian for that price with tot



for u, please go through Saab gripain part list, and tell me how many of them r American.


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## Karakoram8 Eagle

Any new pics or Vids???


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## air marshal

*Pakistan Air Force received fourth brand new Block 52 F-16 aircraft*
July 5, 2010

ISLAMABAD: The United States has handed over another brand new Block 52 F-16 fighter jet to the Pakistan Air Force.

The latest fighter is the fourth out of a total of eighteen to be supplied by America. It belongs to the C and D family and is armed to the teeth with latest equipment.

The jet has now been inducted into the Pakistan Air Force. The US will supply the remaining fourteen F-16s next year.

Pakistan gets fourth F-16 jet &#8211; The Express Tribune

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## air marshal

*Pakistans Infatuation with the F-16s: Dreams & Realities*
July 6, 2010

By Raja Mujtaba

The 1971 Indo-Pak War was over and the Pakistan Air Force did not perform as well as in the 1965 war with India. The American technology which our brave pilots and engineers had absorbed and put to its maximum performance in the previous war let us down in the 71 War. The Korean vintage F-86 Sabers, F104 Star Fighters and B-57 Bombers along with their Missiles and Avionics Suites had out-stretched their operational lives and were now lingering along in our inventories to be counted in numbers. All the smart alecks on the payroll of the PAF in the mid 1970s were collected in the Operations Research Directorate at Air Headquarters to identify the needs of the PAF for the next 20 years. Some of us who were fairly impressed by the American technologies due to being exposed to it in the early part of our PAF careers in the American Aerospace Industry wondered at this new Engineering Genius which in its initial phase was known as Experimental-F16 (XF-16).While the USAF was pushing the American Aerospace Industry towards larger aircraft platforms with twin engines and high speeds as a replacement to the Work Horse aircraft of the Vietnam War: Phantoms, few innovative engineers at the General Dynamics Fort Worth Plant were putting their own money and time to develop their dream aircraft without any of their company executives support. There were no takers of their design of light weight, single engine, multi-purpose, loads of weapons carrying capability, medium range aircraft at that time and it remained an experimental toy of these handful of extra ordinary aerospace and avionics engineers who were working over time at their own cost and risk. Such was their innovative genius that within a few years of their first proto-type developed on self help basis, they converted the whole world towards their design which became one of the most sought after aircraft ever in the history of military aviation.

At the first glance of the XF-16 we were pleasantly shocked to see an aircraft which snugly fitted into our own ASR (Airstaff Service Requirement).It was as if these American Engineers had seriously read our ASR and fully implemented it even before the USAF had prepared one of their own .From that point onwards we were all hooked to acquire this sleek aircraft to meet our operational requirements for the foreseeable future. From then on, it was passed in the Political Domain to acquire this aircraft from our tax payers money for the first time as previously all American Acquisitions came under the MAP (Military Aid Programme).There were several restrictions put on us on the MAP equipment acquired earlier and therefore, we were now excited to have our own say as we were paying in our hard earned US Dollars. The occupation of Afghanistan by Soviet Union pushed our case forward and finally clearance came from the US Govt for us to negotiate with F-16 Manufacturers after years and years of waiting. Our Buyers euphoria came to an abrupt halt when the US offered us the watered down F-16 version known as the Exportable F-16.We flatly walked out from the deal and gained back our ground inch by inch by clearly defining our minimum requirements of the Airborne Radar, Avionics Suite, Missiles &Precision Guided Munitions, Aircraft Engine Configuration and the Electronic Warfare Pods. This itself was no mean task as on several occasions our President had to talk to the US President in the White House to break the stalement. Transfer of Technology was a no go area for us which was very disappointing but as engineers, we tried to fill up the gap, wherever possible, by continuously communicating with the General Dynamics engineering personnel at the personal and professional level. The best transfer of technology in time takes place not through the blue prints of paper drawings but thru the two legs and the right mind placed over it (Human Resource).The PAF Engineers never disappointed the Nation when the hard times came to keep the F-16s flying under a US sanctioned regime.

The year 1983 saw the Fighting Falcons (F-16 non de plume) flying over our skies for the first time. This was a record time for any F-16 user including Israel to adapt to this next generation Aircraft Technology .All thru the 1980s the Fighting Falcons made a big difference in the Air Battles over the Pak-Afghan border and over time the Soviet pilots started respecting its capabilities even though we did not have BVRs then. Not only did we openly engage with the Soviet Air Force and claimed several MIG-23 hits but we jealously protected our Strategic Infra-structure on 24/7 basis by our F-16 Fleet. The Soviets left Afghanistan in 1990 and its down side came with the Pressler Amendment from the US Govt which blocked all our ordered F-16 Aircraft in the pipe line. Not only that, Shahbaz which was an FOB (Forward Operating Base) was being up-graded at a heavy expense as an MOB (Main Operating Base) to house the next batch of the F-16s .Billions of US Dollars of our tax payers money got stuck up in this programme for several years. The PAF finally decided to give it up after waiting for 10 long years and preferred Co-Development of the Super-7 Aircraft with the Chinese. This joint venture is coming to maturity with these aircraft being mass produced at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra.

Twenty seven years after that first flight of the F-16 As&Bs, the new version of F-16 Cs&Ds have now landed at Shahbaz (Jacobabad).The major difference in them being the BVR (Beyond Visual Range) Missile and additional night flying and targeting capability. In the gap of almost three decades between the two F-16 versions, Pakistan has built up a huge technology base at the cost of billions of tax payers money which can easily adopt the new technologies inherent in this new version. Our past experience has shown us that for long term sustainability of Aircraft support, we have to harness the new technologies and exert our sovereign rights more vigorously. For this purpose, closely monitoring of Shahbaz by our political leaders and parliament may be required in order to stop repeating our past mistakes. While all the important US players i.e. Pentagon, Senate and the private sector manufacturers are on the same page, we in Pakistan need to emulate the same. Their complete operations and engineering support have to be carried out on a self reliance basis. After all the F-16 technology is more than 30 years old and can be fully absorbed within our Primary Public Sector Aerospace Industry and our Secondary Private Sector Downstream Vendor Industry for long term sustainability of this system on which more than US Dollars Five Billion would be ultimately spent.

Pakistan is fortunate to have hundreds of F-16s flying in its region and several times in the past, studies were carried out to look at the joint facilities of Turkey and Pakistan for supporting these multiple users. Looking at our past experience, the Americans would not easily let go and therefore, combined political pressure from UAE, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan may have to be applied to achieve this end. Barring this combined pressure, we would remain dependent on the largesse of US to sustain our F-16 operations .We have to be very pragmatic about it as the F-16 technology may not be the state-of-the-art any more, and therefore, with a little push and pull we may strike a good deal not only for ourselves but other friendly users in our close vicinity. Our Aerospace and Avionics Industrial Infra-structure is now matured enough to take on this challenge and put Pakistan in a vantage position in our region. We also have to closely monitor the American Proposals to sell newer Aerospace systems to our Eastern neighbor and closely scrutinize their terms and conditions. Our Parliamentary Committee on Defense should become pro-active now instead of reacting on the likely Indo-American Deal of the Century thru the Indian acquisition of more than 125 State-of-the-Art Aircraft from the USA.

Pakistan?s Infatuation with the F-16s: Dreams & Realities : Veterans Today

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## Kompromat

Great article Air Marshal.

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## fatman17

DATE:28/06/10

SOURCE:Flightglobal.com

*New F-16s touch down in Pakistan* 

By Craig Hoyle

Pakistan&#8217;s first batch of three new Lockheed Martin F-16C/D Block 52 fighters touched down at its air force&#8217;s Shahbaz (Jacobabad) air base on 26 June.

Ferried from the USA by Pakistan air force pilots, the trio included two twin-seat examples, registered 10804 and 10805. The other was a single-seat aircraft marked as 902.

They represent the first shipment from a 2006 contract for 12 C-model fighters and six F-16Ds.

&#8220;The delivery of all 18 aircraft will complete by the end of this year,&#8221; the air force says. &#8220;Pakistan attaches great significance to its air defence needs,&#8221; the service adds, while describing the new arrivals as &#8220;much superior&#8221; to its legacy fleet of F-16A/Bs.

Pakistan has 25 F-16As and 21 F-16Bs in active use, as listed in Flightglobal&#8217;s MiliCAS database. These were delivered between 1982 and 2008, it says.

Islamabad&#8217;s first Pratt & Whitney F100-229-engined F-16D, registered as 10801, was delivered in late 2009 to support development and training activities in the USA.

Links posted in this story: Lockheed Martin

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## Karakoram8 Eagle

Pakistani..!


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## Karakoram8 Eagle

Guy'z plz read this:

*The fourth F16 bk52*
The fourth f16 was with the batch but it got some problem so it stayed at Saudi Arab. That's why after three or four day's it recieved. GooD nEws!!!


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## blain2

MenOfHonor said:


> if they are spending more then 6 billion on f16 they are stupid they could have bought large quantity of saab gripian for that price with tot



Realize that just the cost of 36 F-16s (of which we only bought 18) is $3 billion. So Pakistan has not spent $5.1 billion on the F-16 package as of yet. Our current bill stands at $3.6 billion USD.


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## muhammad asim aslam

f-16 planes are Dare devilS


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## Dazzler

I heard that we have got ALQ-211 (V) 4 AIDEWS with blk 52s but according to these sources, we received the (V) 9 variant. (V) 4 is specifically designed for blk 52s and 60s and the latter is for heavy duty jamming like what E-6 are equipped with. If this is true than its great news. Functions include:


(V 4)

1. Digital Radar Warning
2. Advanced Situation Awareness
3. High/Low Band Jamming Enhanced
for Air-to-Air Missions 
4. Countermeasures Dispensing



(V 9)

1. Digital Radar Warning
2. High Power Jamming
3. Threat Geo-location
4. Situational Awareness Modular
5. Scalable


web sources.......

News, Magazines, Newspapers, Journals, Reference Articles and Classic Books - Free Online Library

Pakistan - AN/ALQ-211(V)9 AIDEWS Pods - ASDNews

http://www.f-16.net/news_article2950.html

Both are 21st century EW systems and do not have an equivalent in neighborhood so far.

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## Dazzler

All you want to know about ALQ-211 (V) 9 heavy jammer.

http://www.defense.itt.com/ausa/med...ta&#37;20Sheets/Brochure -- ALQ 211v9 Pod.pdf

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## anathema

nabil_05 said:


> I heard that we have got ALQ-211 (V) 4 AIDEWS with blk 52s but according to these sources, we received the (V) 9 variant. (V) 4 is specifically designed for blk 52s and 60s and the latter is for heavy duty jamming like what E-6 are equipped with. If this is true than its great news. Functions include:
> 
> 
> (V 4)
> 
> 1. Digital Radar Warning
> 2. Advanced Situation Awareness
> 3. High/Low Band Jamming Enhanced
> for Air-to-Air Missions
> 4. Countermeasures Dispensing
> 
> 
> 
> (V 9)
> 
> 1. Digital Radar
> Warning
> 2. High Power Jamming
> 3. Threat Geo-location
> 4. Situational
> 5. Awareness Modular and Scalable
> 
> web sources.......
> 
> News, Magazines, Newspapers, Journals, Reference Articles and Classic Books - Free Online Library
> 
> 
> Pakistan - AN/ALQ-211(V)9 AIDEWS Pods - ASDNews
> 
> http://www.f-16.net/news_article2950.html
> 
> Both are 21st century EW systems and do not have an equivalent in neighborhood so far.




Indeed v9 is one of the best if not the best ---- excellent capability to have. Coupled that with AIM120C5 -- its marriage made in heaven.

*one question - Does it give 360 deg coverage ?*

Congratulations !!

We certainly lack in EW department and i believe with blck 52 induction , pakistan has surpassed us in that department. 

India on other hand is eagerly awaiting for Mayavi to take shape ...that is going to be the key for us.

In betn thanks for the info.


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## anathema

anathema said:


> Indeed v9 is one of the best if not the best ---- excellent capability to have. Coupled that with AIM120C5 -- its marriage made in heaven.
> 
> *one question - Does it give 360 deg coverage ?*
> 
> Congratulations !!
> 
> We certainly lack in EW department and i believe with blck 52 induction , pakistan has surpassed us in that department.
> 
> India on other hand is eagerly awaiting for Mayavi to take shape ...that is going to be the key for us.
> 
> In betn thanks for the info.



Got my answer -- yes it does provide 360...has Pakistan opted for towed decoy ? If yes then it is extremely impressive.


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## Dazzler

Yes it has entire 360 deg coverage as it is among necessary requirements for a comprehensive AIDEWS system.


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## notorious_eagle

Nabil, could you expand on the capabilities of the D20's that are specifically designed for Electronic Warfare. I know that they spent some considerable time in France undergoing upgrade, also in PAC our engineers have spent a lot of time upgrading their hardware/software. It seems that PAF is diverting a lot of their resources towards Electronic Warfare.


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## Dazzler

Importance of EW warfare in modern combat has increased many folds, in fact, it has gone to an extent that i would call it "offensive measure" instead of defensive which was the case back in 90s. Falcon D20s have seen a thorough upgrade in France fairly recently and now possess increased jamming algorithm based sensors as well as ELINT systems that brought them close to current D20 variants in service with very few air forces in the world.

PAC is spending significant time and resources in developing sophisticated EW sensors which include our very own EW pod that will be mounted both internally and externally (JF-17s initially) and will be tested on Mirages and F-7s, along with our very own advanced avionics on board our existing and future fighter fleet especially JF-17s. So much development is going on that PAF and related organizations have their hands full at the moment.

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## Dazzler

This was posted on Pakdef forum by Mr. H Khan on 12-09-2009....


"PAF used to operate two DA-20 but I think March of 2008 added third DA-20 in the sqd. The first two Blinders went through are a very extensive upgrade program and each aircraft spend close to 16 months in France for structural overhaul and upgrade. They have become a very potent platform. This upgrade was performed starting late 2004 and ending middle of 2007. The VIP is still in service as a VIP but soon to be sold off as scrape. If someone can add the third name of the aircraft, first two are Haider & Iqbal.....anyone for the third name? " 

Regards..

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## khurasaan1

nabil_05 said:


> Importance of EW warfare in modern combat has increased many folds, in fact, it has gone to an extent that i would call it "offensive measure" instead of defensive which was the case back in 90s. Falcon D20s have seen a thorough upgrade in France fairly recently and now possess increased jamming algorithm based sensors as well as ELINT systems that brought them close to current D20 variants in service with very few air forces in the world.
> 
> PAC is spending significant time and resources in developing sophisticated EW sensors which include our very own EW pod that will be mounted both internally and externally (JF-17s initially) and will be tested on Mirages and F-7s, along with our very own advanced avionics on board our existing and future fighter fleet especially JF-17s. So much development is going on that PAF and related organizations have their hands full at the moment.



you absolutely right about PAF at the moment


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## khurasaan1

notorious_eagle said:


> Nabil, could you expand on the capabilities of the D20's that are specifically designed for Electronic Warfare. I know that they spent some considerable time in France undergoing upgrade, also in PAC our engineers have spent a lot of time upgrading their hardware/software. It seems that PAF is diverting a lot of their resources towards Electronic Warfare.



this is need of the time bro...


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## DANGER-ZONE

For Your Desktop


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## S.U.R.B.

I would like the one with my flag and the roundel on.


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## muhammad asim aslam

f-16 ix AIR KING.


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## hardtarget

wht is deference between f 16 and jf 17


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## MZUBAIR

hardtarget said:


> wht is deference between f 16 and jf 17



both r different........
JF-17 is batter to F-16 Block A/B but inferrior to Block C/D


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## Patriot

S.U.R.B. said:


> I would like the one with my flag and the roundel on.


there you go


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## hardtarget

MZUBAIR said:


> both r different........
> JF-17 is batter to F-16 Block A/B but inferrior to Block C/D



wht is a/b and c/d


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## bilal1219

hardtarget said:


> wht is a/b and c/d



A / C models are single seater while b & d are double seat. A/B models are blocks ranging from block 10/15 - 40/45, while c/d are Block 50/52+. Hope it helps

Bilal.

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## Hasnain2009

Bubble canopy


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## air marshal

*PAF F-16 squadron leaves for US*
July 10, 2010

ISLAMABAD: The squadron of F-16 jets, a part of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) left for America today to take part in multinational armies exercises.

According to spokesman of PAF, PAF squad will participate in Red Flag war games of multinational armed forces. The exercises will begin from July 15. Pilots, technicians and senior officers of PAF are taking part in these exercises, he added.

F-16 squadron leaves for US

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## ice_man

* F-16 squadron leaves for US*


ISLAMABAD: The squadron of F-16 jets, a part of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) left for America today to take part in multinational armies exercises.

According to spokesman of PAF, PAF squad will participate in &#8216;Red Flag&#8217; war games of multinational armed forces. The exercises will begin from July 15. Pilots, technicians and senior officers of PAF are taking part in these exercises, he added.

F-16 squadron leaves for US

*now i wonder what indians would say they thought ONLY THEY CAN GO TO "RED FLAG"!! anyone who pays for red flag can go to it!! i hope this will bring the indians back down to earth!!*

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## AVIAN

ice_man said:


> * F-16 squadron leaves for US*
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD: The squadron of F-16 jets, a part of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) left for America today to take part in multinational armies exercises.
> 
> According to spokesman of PAF, PAF squad will participate in Red Flag war games of multinational armed forces. The exercises will begin from July 15. Pilots, technicians and senior officers of PAF are taking part in these exercises, he added.
> 
> F-16 squadron leaves for US
> 
> *now i wonder what indians would say they thought ONLY THEY CAN GO TO "RED FLAG"!! anyone who pays for red flag can go to it!! i hope this will bring the indians back down to earth!!*



Now what is the purpose of bringing to yourself down to indian level by posting unrelated remarks. Don't you have anyother comments about the major happenings and events of this exercise.


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## ice_man

AVIAN said:


> Now what is the purpose of bringing to yourself down to indian level by posting unrelated remarks. Don't you have anyother comments about the major happenings and events of this exercise.



my point is that indians were jumping up and down thinking they had "qualified" for RED FLAG! and no one seemed to understand that red flag participation needs a country to open its coffers take out some money & also commit its troops....

so i guess us going to red flag SURELY will quieten down indians! and if you don't believe me just wait and watch BR will explode with discussions about how can PAF get to redflag as well as india should reject F-16s & F-18s now from the MRCA competition 

in a way us going to red flag is worth it because it subdues our enemy and stops him from unnecessary boasting!! *MISSION ACCOMPLISHED PAF!*

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## MZUBAIR

ice_man said:


> * F-16 squadron leaves for US*
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD: The squadron of F-16 jets, a part of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) left for America today to take part in multinational armies exercises.
> 
> According to spokesman of PAF, PAF squad will participate in Red Flag war games of multinational armed forces. The exercises will begin from July 15. Pilots, technicians and senior officers of PAF are taking part in these exercises, he added.
> 
> F-16 squadron leaves for US
> 
> *now i wonder what indians would say they thought ONLY THEY CAN GO TO "RED FLAG"!! anyone who pays for red flag can go to it!! i hope this will bring the indians back down to earth!!*



Shouldnt be there another thread for this discussion..........Ur n mods opinion required


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## razgriz19

bilal1219 said:


> A / C models are single seater while b & d are double seat. A/B models are blocks ranging from block 10/15 - 40/45, while c/d are Block 50/52+. Hope it helps
> 
> Bilal.



nooo... A/B models are till blk 20. 
C/Ds are from blk 25 - blk 50/52+
E/F are blk 60

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## air marshal

PAF F-16s depart for Red Flag Exercise in USA
July 10, 2010

ISLAMABAD (APP): A contingent of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F 16 combats aircraft along with fighter pilots and technical crew departed a PAF Base for USA to participate in the forthcoming Air Force Exercise, Red Flag scheduled to commence on 15 July. 

Some of the leading Air Forces of the world including the United States Air Force would also take part in the exercise, says a press release.
PAF F 16s would fly across the Atlantic Ocean to participate in Red Flag exercise.

Red Flag, one of the most reputed Air Force exercises in the world, is being held periodically in USA since 1975.

However PAFs participation in this exercise would further hone the skills of its combat and technical crew in facing the challenges of effectively employing Air Power in the 21st century.


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## Imran Khan

go go go its time to bang.i am realy sick for shaheens in action.guys we need pics and viedeos please need work.


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## Patriot

Don't worry we'll get some good pictures from the photographers at Nellis USAFB.


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## air marshal



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## Patriot

air marshal said:


> YouTube - Pakistan Air Force F-16 combat aircraft depart for participating in Red Flag 2010


Thanks


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## mshoaib61

i just talked with my 2 cousins in pakistan who are working in paf as an engineer and air man at jacobad airbase where new paf f16 jets are based.
According to them that base is in control of usa airforce and they have full one squadron of usa airforce f16 over there.


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## Super Hornet

mshoaib61 said:


> i just talked with my 2 cousins in pakistan who are working in paf as an engineer and air man at jacobad airbase where new paf f16 jets are based.
> According to them that base is in control of usa airforce and they have full one squadron of usa airforce f16 over there.



I wonder y our base is in cntrl of USA.....IM reallllly cnfused...


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## SBD-3

Super Hornet said:


> I wonder y our base is in cntrl of USA.....IM reallllly cnfused...



Jacobabad base is being operated by US since the start of millitary operation in Afghanistan...


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## air marshal

*Pakistan Air Force F-16 depart for Red Flag 2010*


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## HASANITALIA

i have question on f 16 which airforce best fly skills in the world with f 16 ?


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## Patriot

USAF........


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## pshamim

Looks like none of the Falcons going to Nellis are from the original batch of F-16 Pakistan had. Going are the F-16AR Block-15(OCU) received recently from USAF. Their Sub-Block designation AR means that they are already upgraded to Block-40 version.

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## Kompromat

HASANITALIA said:


> i have question on f 16 which airforce best fly skills in the world with f 16 ?



In combat.

USAF , IAF , PAF.

On Paper or training.

TUAF is one of the best viper operators.

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## MastanKhan

mshoaib61 said:


> i just talked with my 2 cousins in pakistan who are working in paf as an engineer and air man at jacobad airbase where new paf f16 jets are based.
> According to them that base is in control of usa airforce and they have full one squadron of usa airforce f16 over there.





Hi,

If the U S is still there--then they are also keeping up on the upkeep of the air base to their standards.

Gentlemen---please look at it as a blessings in disguise----you got to remember one thing----the americans always take ownership of the air base and and give it their 110% for upgrading it to the highest standards of operations and capabilitiy.

And after they move out---all heavy equipment is left behind as a gift for local consumption. That would be millions of dollars of equipment with no cost attached to it.

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## Patriot

Mastankhan, If you look at Jacobdaad Air Base from Google Earth - It looks nothing like typical Pakistani Base.It looks like a USAF base with much better infrastructure, climate controlled hangers to keep the airplanes cool as that area is very hot - plus according to sources at Pakdef.info USAF also brought a very big radar on air base and left it after vacating half the base.It is now under PAF control and its ranger is pretty good.US has spent milions of dollars on this base and it will be beneficial for us when USAF leaves or even right now as we're also opearting out of there.Members are getting suspicious here as US raided the base and got there - They forgot that we allowed them to be stationed there via agreement and i don't see anything wrong with that as long as americans pay the money and use base for logistics only (For Afghanistan war).

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## SQ8

Jacobabad has been vacated by the US military, and yes they did turn it into a full fledged base from its humble status before 9/11. 
The only Americans that will be there are civilian advisers from LM who will be there just to settle in the newer birds and not to act as permanent nannies as widely reported. There will be inspections but these will be in lieu of technical observations..in plain words to make sure we don't screw the fancy electronics in our initial operational years.

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## MastanKhan

Patriot said:


> Mastankhan, If you look at Jacobdaad Air Base from Google Earth - It looks nothing like typical Pakistani Base.It looks like a USAF base with much better infrastructure, climate controlled hangers to keep the airplanes cool as that area is very hot - .
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I lived for many a years close to March Air Reserve base in riverside county calif---gets very hot in summer---within 10 degrees odf Jacobabad---.
> 
> The hangers for the F 16's are open---basically tin sheds---a few of the F 16's are parked in the open all the time. It is not an F 16 base but more of a logistics base right now----The 6 F 16 are based just for intercept missions I believe---.
> 
> Why are pak hangers air conditioned---I wouldn't know---maybe they are bunker style.


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## TaimiKhan

MastanKhan said:


> Patriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mastankhan, If you look at Jacobdaad Air Base from Google Earth - It looks nothing like typical Pakistani Base.It looks like a USAF base with much better infrastructure, climate controlled hangers to keep the airplanes cool as that area is very hot - .
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I lived for many a years close to March Air Reserve base in riverside county calif---gets very hot in summer---within 10 degrees odf Jacobabad---.
> 
> The hangers for the F 16's are open---basically tin sheds---a few of the F 16's are parked in the open all the time. It is not an F 16 base but more of a logistics base right now----The 6 F 16 are based just for intercept missions I believe---.
> 
> Why are pak hangers air conditioned---I wouldn't know---maybe they are bunker style.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sir, Jacobabad is a very very hot place, in summer the temperature can go over 50, i believe even 10 degree difference does makes a lot of difference.
> 
> So for ease of staff and operational purposes, it seems some of tha hangars have been air condoned, so that the aircraft as well as the ground personnel can do their work with ease.
> 
> Even before the decision to house them at Jacobabad was not done, there were Chinese AC systems installed at much of the airbase, which unfortunately had to be taken down at the insistence of the Americans, as Chinese AC plant meant, Chinese technicians may have to come to the base, they wanted no Chinese stuff on the base.
Click to expand...

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## Abu Zolfiqar

TaimiKhan said:


> Even before the decision to house them at Jacobabad was not done, there were Chinese AC systems installed at much of the airbase, which unfortunately had to be taken down at the insistence of the Americans, as Chinese AC plant meant, Chinese technicians may have to come to the base, they wanted no Chinese stuff on the base.



are u serious??




are these huge industrial ACs or what?? I feel any local mechanic can maintain a bloody AC

I mean it isnt like they would come and quickly dissect the aircraft and re-assemble it before anybody were to find out. This is just baseless paranoia, and it's on our own base.


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## SQ8

more rumours this time frm retird af officer tht there is infact a code required for avionic startup on the newer jets which are released from islamabad..im not buying this.. since its a retird off from another branch of the af...but on the off chance it is true..thats a sword hanging on our necks when it comes to usage of these jets.
however.. the regular inspections are a confirmed arrangment.. as is the presense of lm contractors on the base.
jacobabad ab is now a city of its own.. it has its own water supply/recycle, sanitation and living facilties ..and whether the whole nation is blacked out or not.. it still has its liights on.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

As per the explanation of Fighter planes, the person on the right is flying an F-16, therefore he absorbs the kickass-radiation from the F-16. As F-15 pilots absorb ego, F-18 pilots absorb the false sense of being cool, and F-22 pilots absorb loneliness as no new F-22s are made, F-16 pilots absorb kickassery. A person's kickass-level is sort of like a way of measuring how like Chuck Norris a person is.
F-16 pilot - Uncyclopedia, the content-free encyclopedia
i know its completely irrelevant but do read the whole article...its awsomw

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## Dazzler

More on ITT's sensors for EA-18G Growler, EA-6 Prowler and the F-16s. Interesting that at the time, Pakistan was the ONLY customer to have ordered the ALQ-211 (V9) version along with V4 one. Good read over all.....

ITT Corp. foresees double-digit annual growth of its Electronic Systems group, helped by the recent addition of the former EDO Corp. The market for electronic warfare (EW) systems is seen as a major driver of that growth.

The acquisition of EDO, valued at $1.7 billion, was concluded last December. It represented ITT&#8217;s largest acquisition since ITT Industries (now Corp.) was formed as an independent company in 1995. It also made ITT a top-10 U.S. defense contractor in terms of revenue. The company&#8217;s Defense Electronics & Services business, based in McLean, Va., generated $4.2 billion in 2007; it is expected to finish at $6.1 billion this year.

EDO, a multi-faceted manufacturer of electronic subassemblies for military and space applications, advanced composite structures, sonar systems and test equipment, came with an 80-year legacy and positions on a range of strike, EW and surveillance aircraft. ITT bought EDO not to absorb it, company officials say, but to expand ITT&#8217;s own offerings.

"ITT went ahead with this purchase with the idea that it was going to be a true merger/integration," said Christopher M. Carlson, director of U.S. business development for ITT Electronic Systems. "We were not looking to buy and consolidate. We saw in EDO, what they were doing, a lot of complimentary technologies and markets."

In an interview during the Farnborough Airshow in July, Carlson made the case that EDO and ITT combined are more capable than the sum of their parts. The expectation going forward, he said, is ITT&#8217;s $1.29 billion Electronic Systems group will grow by 10 percent annually.

One springboard for the merged company is the new EA-18G Growler, the U.S. Navy&#8217;s replacement for the 40-year-old EA-6B Prowler EW aircraft. EDO&#8217;s Defense Systems unit in North Amityville, N.Y., supplied components of the AN/ALQ-99 jamming system of the EA-6B, which is comprised of receivers and antennas in the aircraft&#8217;s tail cap and exciters, which optimize jamming signals, and transmitters contained in pods under the wings and fuselage. The Universal Exciter Upgrade extended the system&#8217;s frequency coverage and incorporated advanced jamming techniques and modulations.

Like the EA-6B, the Growler is fitted with ALQ-99 transmitter pods as well as an Interference Cancellation System (INCANS) from the former EDO facility at Thousand Oaks, Calif., now part of the ITT family.

"With us picking up Amityville, one of the major markets going forward is the electronic attack market," Carlson said. "The current Navy system supporting both the Navy and the Air Force &#8212; the EA-6B &#8212; is being phased out in favor of the [EA-18G]. The Air Force doesn&#8217;t have a replacement for it, so both the Navy and the Air Force are looking at new equipment. For the EW world, that&#8217;s going to be one of the major markets, at least domestically in the U.S., in the next decade."

The Navy is planning a next-generation jammer for the EA-18. Meanwhile, the Air Force Research Laboratory has awarded contracts to companies including ITT to mature technology for an EW pod that would be flown on the B-52 bomber, replacing the cancelled Stand-Off Jammer System for that aircraft. ITT has contracts to develop exciter and phased-array jamming technologies at lower frequencies.

With the former EDO&#8217;s contribution, ITT is better positioned to offer an EW system solution, Carlson said.

"The old EDO group already had a position on the EA-6B with their Universal Exciter," Carlson said. "ITT in Clifton (N.J.) had been working on the... transmit side, with a number of contracts from the Air Force to develop new phased-array technology. Now, we find with the merger, that we have the complete story. We&#8217;ve got the waveform generation with the exciter coming out of (Amityville); we have the new-technology transmitters and beam formers coming out of New Jersey. You put the two together [and] ITT has a complete system."

Forecast International estimates $23 billion will be spent on development and production of major EW programs over the next 10 years &#8212; driven by the need to counter improvised explosive devices, to adapt airborne EW systems and potentially to protect civilian airliners from missiles. Frost & Sullivan has pegged the U.S. market for EW programs at $1.25 billion in 2008, growing to $1.31 billion in 2013. The market leaders across reports include Northrop Grumman, ITT, Raytheon, BAE Systems, Lockheed Martin and Thales.

One technology that Carlson does not see as raining on this parade is the use of Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar for electronic attack. That application is being studied by, among others, Northrop Grumman, which supplies AESA radars for the F-22 and F-35 multirole fifth-generation fighters.

"The problem, or the issue, in electronic attack is you want to attack the radars that span the entire frequency range," Carlson said. "When people talk about using the AESA radar as also an electronic attack device &#8212; of the whole range, that covers a small [amount]. Although the radars that they&#8217;re putting in the modern airplanes are broader bandwidth than a generation ago, instead of a tiny sliver of the frequency range, they&#8217;ve now got a small niche of it."

ITT at Farnborough had other developments to report &#8212; the first international sale of its ALQ-214 Integrated Defensive Electronics Countermeasures system as part of Australia&#8217;s procurement of 24 F/A-18E/F fighters; and Turkey&#8217;s selection of the ALQ-211(V) 4 EW suite for new F-16s, joining Pakistan, Poland, Chile and Oman. Pakistan also was expected to order the (V) 9 podded version of the system to equip older F-16s under a Foreign Military Sale. The company&#8217;s ALQ-211 (V) 2 for the U.S. Air Force CV-22 tiltrotor and (V) 6 for the U.S. Army Special Operations MH-47E Chinook have entered full-rate production.

"This is the fourth or fifth good year we&#8217;ve had in a row," Carlson said. "We feel good, with the 211 and 214 in full-rate production, new technology with electronic attack and new capabilities [such as] test equipment in California, through the EDO purchase. The new group in (Amityville) is heavily involved in the electronic attack market and is going to enhance our position in the market." &#8212; Bill Carey

Avionics Magazine :: Industry Scan

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## ZHENAISUSU

F-16 CD? The new fighter?

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## AVIAN

ZHENAISUSU said:


> F-16 CD? The new fighter?



Yes it is a newest fighter although in use since 1990 but now it is operated with much better avionics and improvements to its airframe and powerplant.


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## Myth_buster_1

AVIAN said:


> Yes it is a newest fighter although in use since 1990 but now it is operated with much better avionics and improvements to its airframe and powerplant.



He is referring new block 52 with block 52 plus whic this topic is on. And a correction... block 52 plus is in service since 2000-2002..

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## blain2

Patriot said:


> Mastankhan, If you look at Jacobdaad Air Base from Google Earth - It looks nothing like typical Pakistani Base.It looks like a USAF base with much better infrastructure, climate controlled hangers to keep the airplanes cool as that area is very hot - .
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I lived for many a years close to March Air Reserve base in riverside county calif---gets very hot in summer---within 10 degrees odf Jacobabad---.
> 
> The hangers for the F 16's are open---basically tin sheds---a few of the F 16's are parked in the open all the time. It is not an F 16 base but more of a logistics base right now----The 6 F 16 are based just for intercept missions I believe---.
> 
> Why are pak hangers air conditioned---I wouldn't know---maybe they are bunker style.



Depends on the shelter. The HAS typically are Air Conditioned but not always. Secondly, the tin sheds are usually at FOBs etc. or in temporary parking areas within bases to keep the aircraft relatively cooler or protected from rain when air crews are working on the aircraft.

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## blain2

sancho said:


> Yes you are too generous towards the F16 and its capabilies!
> 
> The F16 is not and never was meant to be an air superiority fighter, similar to F15, EF, or Flankers and that's why it lacks in many fields compared to them in this role. That's why even the air forces of America, Israel, S.Korea, or Singapore, that has latest versions of the F 16, operates more capable F15s in the air superiority role, or why PLAAF operates numbers of J11 and Su 30s, above the J10s.
> 
> The F16s is a good fighter in the medium class, but should not be overestimated. Yes in WVR, with its smaller size and manouverability it will have some chances (like you said possibly in lower altitudes), but that doesn't makes it equal in A2A, because the these air superiority fighters still have more advantages like radar range, t/w ratios, speed, more capable EWS, more weapons, or in case of EF also lower RCSs and manouverability. That's the same reason why the US still developed a bigger F22 twin engine air superiority fighter and a F16 successor (F35) only in addition to it.
> 
> 
> Now to your points, AIM 120 C5 is available for the EF since the trance 2 block 5 upgrade and the Royal Air Force is using these missiles for their EFs and Tornados:
> 
> 
> Eurofighter Typhoon to be Showcased at Aero India 2007 | India Defence
> 
> The only reason why the other customers keeps older versions of AIM120 is, because they wait for the Meteor missile!
> 
> 
> Next point is the radar range, what is a decent range for APG 68 in your opinion?
> Is it comparable to the estimated 160 - 185 Km range for targets of a RCS between 3 and 5m2, of EFs actual Captor M radar? Detection of bigger aircrafts are expected at ranges up to 370Km, it tracks 20 targets at a time and engages 6 of them, which brings it even close to Bars ranges and capabilities!
> 
> And as umair86 mentioned, the F16 Block 15 are generally counted to the most manouverable F16 versions. The later has more thrust, but also clearly more weight, which makes it very unlikely to compete against latest delta cancard designs, which was reported in the past too. In the fighter competition in Singapore for example EF was fielded against F16 B52s and according to some sources won 3:0. In an exercise before Red Flag, the Rafale F2 was fielded (in WVR combats) against US F16s (also older versions) and the Rafale won 3:1. So just because of some thrust impovements, the newer F16s won't have a chance against the EF, which puts all the hope at JHMCS + AIM 9X. But as I said before, these air superiority fighters are also geared with latest avionics and EW Systems, which means even that combo won't give the F16 a clear advantage.
> 
> 
> Once again in A2A compared to latest F16 blocks, the EF offers:
> 
> - high t/w ratio
> - more manouverable design
> - lower RCS
> - better radar
> - latest EWS and avionics
> - same missiles
> 
> So I don't see where the latest F16 (especially without AESA), will be comparable to it in A2A.



I had been meaning to respond to your post, but then came across this which drives my point home and saves me a lot of time from repeating many of the same points made earlier. The parts in bold were the essence of my argument. Its an aircraft which is nice, but a little late for its time. Not a lot of market for it and those who are beholden to it are cutting back to cut losses and consider the next generation of fighters. 

*Typhoon Runs Out Of Wind*

*The Eurofighter Typhoon only entered regular service in the last three years. Now, Britain is planning to phase out a third of those it has, in the next five years. Germany is also cancelling Typhoon orders. Last year, Britain decided to not take all of its third batch (or "tranche", as they like to call it in Europe) of 88 Eurofighter Typhoon fighters.*

Britain had decided to take 40 of the fighters from the third batch, and resell another 24 to Saudi Arabia. In effect, Britain was pulling out of the Eurofighter program, and cancelling 16 of the aircraft it was to have received from the third batch.

The British government believes that 184 Eurofighters will be sufficient, and that it cannot afford any more than that. Originally, Britain planned to buy 232 (Germany was to get 180, Italy 121, and Spain 87.) With export orders, it was expected that nearly 500 would be built, now it will be less than 400. Like the F-22, the Typhoon got too expensive for a need that disappeared.

The Eurofighter project began during the Cold War, to deal with advanced Russian combat aircraft that were never manufactured, because the Cold War ended in 1991 and the Soviet Union, and its armed forces, collapsed.

But Cold War era combat aircraft development projects continued anyway. This was mainly for political reasons. Those projects created a lot of jobs, and were worth a lot of votes. But reality caught up with the politicians during the current world recession, created in part by a lot of spending on things people could not afford.

Development of the Eurofighter began in the 1980s, and the first flight took place in 1994. Each aircraft costs about $122 million. The Typhoon is a somewhat stealthy multi-role fighter.

It is fast, maneuverable, and carries a lot of weapons. It also can be used for attack missions. This 23 ton aircraft will be the principal fighter in the air forces of Britain, Spain, Germany, and Italy. *The Typhoon is closer in capability to the F-15, than the F-22, and is competing with the F-35 for many export sales.*

The Typhoon was purchased by Saudi Arabia, mainly to provide protection from Iran.

Warplanes: Typhoon Runs Out Of Wind

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## blain2

nabil_05 said:


> Importance of EW warfare in modern combat has increased many folds, in fact, it has gone to an extent that i would call it "offensive measure" instead of defensive which was the case back in 90s. Falcon D20s have seen a thorough upgrade in France fairly recently and now possess increased jamming algorithm based sensors as well as ELINT systems that brought them close to current D20 variants in service with very few air forces in the world.
> 
> PAC is spending significant time and resources in developing sophisticated EW sensors which include our very own EW pod that will be mounted both internally and externally (JF-17s initially) and will be tested on Mirages and F-7s, along with our very own advanced avionics on board our existing and future fighter fleet especially JF-17s. So much development is going on that PAF and related organizations have their hands full at the moment.



I do want to add, the Erieye will provide an even more comprehensive ELINT capability than the DA-20s in use. So overall the ELINT capability has increased manifold with the upgrades of the DA-20s and specifically due to the induction of Erieyes.

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## blain2

nabil_05 said:


> This was posted on Pakdef forum by Mr. H Khan on 12-09-2009....
> 
> 
> "PAF used to operate two DA-20 but I think March of 2008 added third DA-20 in the sqd. The first two Blinders went through are a very extensive upgrade program and each aircraft spend close to 16 months in France for structural overhaul and upgrade. They have become a very potent platform. This upgrade was performed starting late 2004 and ending middle of 2007. The VIP is still in service as a VIP but soon to be sold off as scrape. If someone can add the third name of the aircraft, first two are Haider & Iqbal.....anyone for the third name? "
> 
> Regards..



The third one is "Lodhi".

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## fatman17

blain2 said:


> The third one is "Lodhi".



btw our very own x_man flew one of the DA-20's to paris for an overhaul - which overhaul it was, maybe he can comment on!!!

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## cloyce

I have a curiosity about F-16 equipped with Sabr AESA radar. 

Aircrafts like F-22 has dedicated cooling gates for cooling AESA radar heat. Like this : 

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8162/f22aesa.jpg


But according to Northrop Grumman, their Sabr AESA will be able to refit all F-16s with "no structural, power or cooling modifications".

How is that possible? Will this thing affect the radar performace compared to "native" AESA fighters like F-22? 

Thanks.


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## Patriot

Sabr AESA is not as advanced as APG-77 currently used in F22.Sabr Aesa is compact but advanced radar.It is not as good as APG-77 but still better then the current radar on block 52.OTOH, F16 Block 60 has the same AESA Radar which is used on Hornet.


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## Manticore




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## cloyce

Patriot said:


> Sabr AESA is not as advanced as APG-77 currently used in F22.Sabr Aesa is compact but advanced radar.It is not as good as APG-77 but still better then the current radar on block 52.OTOH, F16 Block 60 has the same AESA Radar which is used on Hornet.



You are very kind for answer me.

Now, just let me ask you one more thing. 

So, is the lower performance related to the lack of a dedicated cooling gate? If it's true. Why I can't spot anyone on a F-35 body?

Thanks in advance.


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## SQ8

Found it...deleted..

Apparently the newer falcons were refueled by a Kc-10 on their delivery flight here...


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## Dazzler

Patriot said:


> Sabr AESA is not as advanced as APG-77 currently used in F22.Sabr Aesa is compact but advanced radar.It is not as good as APG-77 but still better then the current radar on block 52.OTOH, F16 Block 60 has the same AESA Radar which is used on Hornet.



SABR is small, compact and designed as an upgrade option and does not need additional cooling hence it can be readily accommodated in existing f-16 nose cone. Radar on blk 60 is APG-80 and on F-18 SH is APG-79, both are different in size and capability where the latter triumphs the former in range, power and additional functions.

Also, one is manufactured by Northrop Grumman (apg-80) and other is by Raytheon (APG-79)

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## gambit

cloyce said:


> So, *is the lower performance related to the lack of a dedicated cooling gate?* If it's true. Why I can't spot anyone on a F-35 body?


No. In radar detection, there are three major items that affect overall performance of a system:

- Antenna size
- Beam width
- Resolution cell

The larger the antenna, the narrower the beam width, and this affect resolution cell...

Definition: radar resolution cell


> radar resolution cell: The volume of space that is occupied by a radar pulse and that is determined by the pulse duration and the horizontal and vertical beamwidths of the transmitting radar. *Note: The radar cannot distinguish between two separate objects that lie within the same resolution cell.*


Cooling can be achieved through other means than vents or ram air ducting.

Now...If the radar is designed for volume search and this is the domain of AWACS, then resolution cell becomes secondary importance. Basically, at several hundreds km out, it really does not matter if you can distinguish individual targets or not. You just need to cover as much of the sky and as fast as possible. So a large antenna in combination with the mhz bands will produce the optimum power for distance and beam width for coverage over any period of time.

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## blain2

Good info Gambit!


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## MastanKhan

gambit said:


> Cooling can be achieved through other means than vents or ram air ducting.
> 
> Now...If the radar is designed for volume search and this is the domain of AWACS, then resolution cell becomes secondary importance. Basically, at several hundreds km out, it really does not matter if you can distinguish individual targets or not. You just need to cover as much of the sky and as fast as possible. So a large antenna in combination with the mhz bands will produce the optimum power for distance and beam width for coverage over any period of time.



Hi,

About a year ago I read that Aesa can detect the number of blades on the jet engine----determing what kind of engine it is---thus what kind of aircraft and how many---even if they are flying real close---I lost that article somewhere---. What is your input on that! Thankyou.


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## MastanKhan

www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/aesaradar/index.html


Hi,

Some great info on radar systems.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Sorry for being off topic but cant we absorb some techs from our F-16s n use them on JFTs?


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## MastanKhan

Active Electronically Steered Arrays - A Maturing Technology


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## gambit

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> About a year ago I read that Aesa can detect the number of blades on the jet engine----determing what kind of engine it is---thus what kind of aircraft and how many---even if they are flying real close---I lost that article somewhere---. What is your input on that! Thankyou.


While the superiority of even the basic ESA system is undisputed and that the ability of an AESA system to create a beam width that -- in theory -- could do what is claimed, I would reserve judgment on that claim. The issue here is complex...

- The amount of reflective surfaces that are available for any pulse in any time period.
- Beam dispersion or 'widening'.
- Moving surfaces.

A series of pulses is called appropriately enough a 'pulse train'. A jet engine will have several stages of moving blades. A pulse train will exhibit different behaviors on a *SINGLE* blade because the blade itself is not an ideal geometric figure like a sphere, which exhibit predictable reflective behavior regardless of approach angle, but that the blade will have edges and curves, which will induce different reflective signal behavior. Beam widening because of increasing distance lead us back to the resolution cell property which could make a pulse train to believe two or more blades as one.

Finally there is interference...

Simulcasting


> You can think of the two radio signals as waves, with peaks and troughs as they travel from the transmitter to the receiver. If the content of the two signals is the same and the signals arrive at the receiver at exactly the same time, the peaks and troughs will match each other and the two signals will reinforce each other. In this condition the signals are described as in-phase and result in *constructive interference.* Most receivers perform very well with this positive type of interference.
> 
> However, if the content of the two signals is the same but the signals do not arrive at the receiver at the exact same moment, the peaks and troughs won't match up. This condition is known as out of phase and results in *destructive interference.*


Both types will occur at any point in time in any pulse train precisely because of the moving blades -- in multiple stages at that. And keep in mind that the aircraft is moving as well.

So while under ideal conditions, aka laboratory, we can take static measurements of a jet engine and compare it against known signatures, similar to sonar signatures, and make a reasonably accurate declaration that we are looking at the radar signature of so-and-so engine and therefore at a so-and-so fighter, applications under far less than ideal conditions may not make the attempt technically and financially worthwhile.

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## DANGER-ZONE




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## ejaz007

*F-16 is most advanced 4th gen fighter*

July 20, 2010 (by John R. Kent) - The versions of the F-16 being delivered to customers now are the most advanced 4th Generation multi-role fighter aircraft currently available on the international market and are building on the F-16's reputation for effectiveness and value, the Lockheed Martin director of business development for the program said today. 

"The F-16 continues as a modern, highly capable, affordable and supportable fighter. The program is healthy and active, with firm production through 2013 and a strong likelihood of new orders that will extend the line for several more years," said Bill McHenry, director of business development for F-16 programs, in remarks to reporters at the Farnborough International Airshow. McHenry also added that there is a firm backlog of 86 F-16 aircraft, including a recent order from Egypt for 20 new, Advanced Block 50/52 aircraft, the sixth follow-on buy for this country.

More than 4,450 F-16s have been delivered worldwide since the program's inception more than 30 years ago  including 53 follow-on buys by 14 countries.

In addition to the F-16 production programs, Lockheed Martin continues to develop the F-16 for the future by integrating advanced technologies through upgrade programs for existing F-16s to ensure interoperability with the worlds only 5th Generation fighters, the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II.

"This integration of advanced technologies for fielded and new aircraft provides an opportunity for F-16 operators to benefit from the latest developments in technology and capabilities for fighter aircraft," McHenry said. "This synergy will parallel technology and provide a natural bridge from the 4th Generation of fighters to the 5th Generation."

Aircraft now being produced for Turkey, Pakistan, Morocco and Egypt are the Advanced Block 50/52 F-16C/D configuration. The United Arab Emirates was the launch customer for the block 60 F-16 E/F version, and is the platform basis for the proposed variant called the F-16IN Super Viper for the Indian Air Forces Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft competition.

McHenry said the F-16 offers the latest technologies and capabilities available today  including AESA radar, day-night, all-weather, standoff, autonomous, air intercept and precision strike. These aircraft have the latest in avionics, sensors and weapons, plus user-friendly cockpits and systems integration that provide pilots with high situational awareness.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article4145.html


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## air marshal

According to today's Urdu daily Waqt so far a total of three Block 52 F-16 aircraft (one F-16C + two F-16D) have been delivered to Pakistan Air Force as part of a total of 18 Block 52 F-16 aircraft ordered by Pakistan.

The remaining fifteen Block 52 F-16s will be delivered to Pakistan by the end of January 2011.

It means following news report which appeared in July 5, 2010 in Urdu daily Express claiming delivery of fourth Block 52 F-16 to Pakistan was not correct???


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## BATMAN

*F-16s in Pakistan: a review*
Saturday, July 24, 2010
By Salis bin Perwaiz

KARACHI: The first batch of three latest version F-16 C/D Block-52 high-tech Fighting Falcons landed in Pakistan recently. Top security officials and others termed it a great breakthrough, saying the induction would give a great edge and a potent punch to the Pakistan Air Force.

The News spoke to various senior officers of Pakistan Air Force about the history of F-16 jet planes and its specifications.

When the Soviets invaded Afghanistan in 1979, the Mujahideen took up arms against the superpower at the time. It was a struggle that saw the Mujahideen crossing the Pakistan border regularly &#8212; often to disperse among the many Afghan refugee camps that had sprung up along the western regions. This saw occasional incursions by the Soviet Union and Afghan aircraft into Pakistan on search and destroy missions, but no major skirmishes, until the delivery of the PAF&#237;s F-16s in 1982.

During 1982, six pilots and 87 technicians travelled to the USA to train on the F-16s, with the first aircraft being accepted by the PAF at Lockheed-Martin&#237;s Fort Worth facility in October 1982.

All the pilots, converted on the aircraft, only six months after making their first flight in the F-16. The first of two F-16As and four F-16Bs were flown to Sargodha by the six pioneers on January, 1983. The first unit to re-equip with the F-16 in January 1983 was Sargodha based 11 Squadron &#235;Arrows&#237;. A second unit, 9 Squadron &#235;Griffins,&#237; moved to Sargodha, which also re-equipped with the F-16 in June, 1984.

In 1986, three years after entering service, a PAF F-16 claimed its first air-to-air kill. This first strike took place on May 17, 1986, when Flight Lieutenant Hameed Qadri from 9 Squadron, with his aircraft&#237;s 20 mm gun, put down an Su-22 in the Miranshah district on a dawn Combat Air Patrol.

Following two years of F-16 operations, the government opted for another batch of Fighting Falcons in October 1988. The deal known as Peace Gate III, comprised six F-16s and five F-16Bs and was followed by Peace Gate IV in September 1989 in which 48 F-16As and 12 F-16Bs were to be obtained. However, all 71 F-16s were embargoed, due to the October 1990 Pressler Amendment. The amendment stipulated that the US Government was to suspend all military sales programmes to Pakistan. This would continue until Pakistan complied with the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

The sanctions stayed in place until three years after the September 11 terrorist attack on the twin towers in New York. Given its geo-strategic location and partnership in the global war on terrorism, Pakistan was designated as a major non-Nato ally in June 2005 and the US President George W Bush gave the go ahead for the return of the 28 F-16s.

The first two F-16As were overhauled and subsequently flown to Pakistan on December 8, 2005 and arrived in country some five days later. The delivery of 14 F-16s from USAF stocks was completed in mid-2008.

The PAF leadership received a morale booster in June 2005, when it was granted permission to purchase 12 F-16C and six F-16D Block 52Ms through Foreign Military Sales (FMS) channels. Peace Drive I, as the contract is known by the US government, also includes many other technologies like Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems, conformal fuel tanks and advanced electronic warfare systems. The aircraft are expected to be delivered in 2010/11 and based at Shahbaz near Jacobabad.

On December 14, 2006, it was announced by the US that Pakistan would receive 24 Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) kits for their Peace Gate I/II F-16A Block 15s and 10 similar kits for their 10 Peace Gate I/II F-16Bs. The Falcon Up work, known in the US as the Peace Drive II (Pakistan) modernisation programme, will be completed by November, 2010.

Meanwhile, the PAF&#237;s existing fleet of Peace Gate I/II Block 25s will undergo a Falcon Up mid-life update in 2011, designed at upgrading cockpits and avionics to match the F-16C/D. These will be augmented by an additional 14 F-16s that were never delivered because of the Pressler Amendment passed back in 1992, which led to 28 F-16s being embargoed in the USA. The PAF, which places much emphasis on the F-16, because of its capabilities and load factor, will then operate one of the largest F-16 fleets in the world.

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## airmarshal

What is the point of having these F-16s if there is a mechanism in place which prevents us from using them against india?


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## blain2

There is no such mechanism in place. We can talk about the technicalities of systems that have been denied to us, however even without those systems, F-16s are fully capable of conducting offensive operations.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

May be we should discuss transfer of technology of F16 , since we like the plane so well or at least we should place order of 40-50 planes with US F16 Factory.

It is a wonderful plane


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## Crypto

*Images of F-16's Drogue-Probe Style Air Refueling System*












Images from drogue-probe style air refueling system testing on F-16.This aerial refueling system allows the F-16 to refuel from probe-and-drogue refueling systems. The system is called CARTS, for conformal air refuel tank system. The probe telescopically extends and retracts from a purpose-built right-side forward conformal fuel tank. The right aft section and complete left-side conformal fuel tanks require no change. The mechanically driven probe quickly extends the nozzle to its fully extended position just in front of the front pilots eye position.

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## Stealth

drogue-probe style air refueling loOks reallly pathetic on F16....


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## air marshal



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## SQ8

Seems the Conformal probes are being tested on a Chilean AF example.


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## araz

air marshal said:


> According to today's Urdu daily Waqt so far a total of three Block 52 F-16 aircraft (one F-16C + two F-16D) have been delivered to Pakistan Air Force as part of a total of 18 Block 52 F-16 aircraft ordered by Pakistan.
> 
> The remaining fifteen Block 52 F-16s will be delivered to Pakistan by the end of January 2011.
> 
> It means following news report which appeared in July 5, 2010 in Urdu daily Express claiming delivery of fourth Block 52 F-16 to Pakistan was not correct???



The fourth one was delivered a few days later and reported in the news as well as members of pakdef.info.
Araz


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## Koga Ryu

here is another excellent article on f-16.

Perfecting Protection | AVIATION WEEK

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## Koga Ryu

Red flag 2010
°Í»ùË¹Ì¹¿Õ¾üF-16»úÈº·ÉµÖÃÀ¹ú±¾ÍÁ²Î¼ÓºìÆì¾üÑÝ_¸ßÇåÍ¼¼¯_ÐÂÀËÍø


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## Dazzler

It comes with a SNIPER !

Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod | Lockheed Martin


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## razgriz19




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## Dazzler

AFM on f-16s

page0002.jpg picture by nexeltroop - Photobucket

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## shanixee

After mumbai attack...2 indian aircraft crossed Pakistani border but were intersepted and locked by our F16s...few say the were M2k. Mig 29 and few say it was Su30. if it was su30. dont it also work as mini Awaks. i mean cant su30 jam F16 or atleast know its location before it locks it


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## rizhussain44

Can anyone please tell what is the schedule for the delivery of the rest of the blk 52 F-16s? When is the next batch expected to be delivered?


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## Donatello

rizhussain44 said:


> Can anyone please tell what is the schedule for the delivery of the rest of the blk 52 F-16s? When is the next batch expected to be delivered?





Yea, i have the question.

Also what about the potential extra 18 or 14 F-16s BLK 52 that were supposed to be ordered?

Some sources (Wikipedia) say they are all to be delivered by end of 2010.....


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## Quwa

penumbra said:


> Yea, i have the question.
> 
> Also what about the potential extra 18 or 14 F-16s BLK 52 that were supposed to be ordered?
> 
> Some sources (Wikipedia) say they are all to be delivered by end of 2010.....


Harris Khan from PakDef/Defense News said PAF will get 14 used F-16s via the Excess Defence Articles (EDA) program. This would bring the MLU fleet to 59. As you know, the PAF also has an option for 18 Block-52+ F-16s that it may execute, and recent hints suggest it will. 

In addition, we have various reports stating that PAF may go beyond the figure of 36 new-built F-16s and acquire more. Not much is known with regards to this, but JDW reported in 2006-2007 that in addition to the 26 ex-Peace Gate III/IV and 18 Block-52+, the PAF would get "33 additional" F-16s...I assume this would include the optional 18 Block-52+ and 14 more C/D. 

For what its worth, PAF has until 2014 to decide on new-built F-16s as that is when Lockheed Martin expects to close production (based on current orders). The new-built C/D figure might cross the 50~55 plane mark in PAF.

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## BATMAN

PAF had ordered a big package including new engines, airframe reinforcements, targeting pods, customised avionics and counter warfares etc.. but no news no updates on MLU.. what so ever.
Only BVR AIM 120-C5M delivery became public.


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## razgriz19




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## Donatello

Mark Sien said:


> Harris Khan from PakDef/Defense News said PAF will get 14 used F-16s via the Excess Defence Articles (EDA) program. This would bring the MLU fleet to 59. As you know, the PAF also has an option for 18 Block-52+ F-16s that it may execute, and recent hints suggest it will.
> 
> In addition, we have various reports stating that PAF may go beyond the figure of 36 new-built F-16s and acquire more. Not much is known with regards to this, but JDW reported in 2006-2007 that in addition to the 26 ex-Peace Gate III/IV and 18 Block-52+, the PAF would get "33 additional" F-16s...I assume this would include the optional 18 Block-52+ and 14 more C/D.
> 
> For what its worth, PAF has until 2014 to decide on new-built F-16s as that is when Lockheed Martin expects to close production (based on current orders). The new-built C/D figure might cross the 50~55 plane mark in PAF.





The numbers are still very confusing.


PAF is confirmed getting 18 blk 52+.
PAF received 14 OCU f-16s some time back.
These are in addition to the original surviving 32 F-16s A/B.


Now, 14 of the OCU ones were delivered in 2009, so maybe JDW in 2006/7 was stating that.


PAF had option for 18 more, and many say that out of those 18, it has ordered 14, which like the original 18 BLK 52+, all will be delivered by end of this year.


Now my question in easy terms is:-

are those new 14 F-16s Blk 52+ confirmed bought?
and how many of the USN Aggressor aircraft are we getting, and if they are MLU-ed because we didn't purchase MLU kits for them.


Finally, i assume that PAF orders depend on the relative performance of j-10 to our new F-16s.......because 2014 is when we are expecting first squadron for J-10.


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## Quwa

penumbra said:


> The numbers are still very confusing.


These are the numbers from my understanding:

In service or entering:

45 F-16A/B Block-15 [32 original + 14 ex-PGIII/IV - 1 attrition]
18 F-16C/D Block-52+

Currently negotiating/being pursued:

14 F-16A/B via EDA [i.e. the news about 14 F-16s]

Additional possibilities:

18 optional F-16C/D Block-52+ from 2006 agreement
unknown # of F-16C/D Block-52+ from new agreement
unknown # of used F-16C/Ds from USAF

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## BATMAN

32+26+18=76 if we add 18 more as a second order of blk-52 than 76+18=94


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## Quwa

BATMAN said:


> 32+26+18=76 if we add 18 more as a second order of blk-52 than 76+18=94


Actual F-16 fleet:

32 F-16A/B + 28 additional F-16A/B - 1 loss = 59 F-16A/B MLU
18 F-16C/D + 18 F-16C/D = 36 F-16C/D Block-52+
Additional F-16s could include a mix of new and used C/Ds.


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## razgriz19

Mark Sien said:


> Actual F-16 fleet:
> 
> 32 F-16A/B + *28* additional F-16A/B - 1 loss = 59 F-16A/B MLU
> 18 F-16C/D + 18 F-16C/D = 36 F-16C/D Block-52+
> Additional F-16s could include a mix of new and used C/Ds.



we have recieved 14 out of 28, and other 14 in grains, soy beans....

we bought 18 blk 52 and now there was a news that PAF is negotiating another 14 so basically 18+14=32 blk 52s
and 32+14=46 - 1 loss = 45 blk 15!

by next year (hopefully) we will have a total of 77 f-16s!


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## Quwa

razgriz19 said:


> we have recieved 14 out of 28, and other 14 in grains, soy beans....
> 
> we bought 18 blk 52 and now there was a news that PAF is negotiating another 14 so basically 18+14=32 blk 52s
> and 32+14=46 - 1 loss = 45 blk 15!
> 
> by next year (hopefully) we will have a total of 77 f-16s!


U.S. 'reimbursed' Pakistan in the 1990s for the 28 ex-PG III/IV F-16s in both cash and soy beans. However, the delivery of 14 of the 28 ex-PG F-16s commenced in 2005 and concluded by 2008. Since 2005-2006 the PAF asked for the remaining 14 ex-PG III/IV F-16s from the U.S Navy, but the latter was reluctant to transfer. As a result the U.S Air Force stepped in and offered PAF access to used F-16s from USAF and U.S ANG stocks. 

Recently through some agreement, the PAF will be getting 14 F-16A/Bs through the Excess Defence Articles (EDA) program. According to H Khan on PakDef, delivery will begin from September.

My personal opinion...the F-16 will become what Mirage III/IV in PAF is today; except serve in the middle tier as a high-tech fighter. The Lockheed Martin production line will not close F-16 production until 2014 - i.e. Oman's order if finalized (link)[/URL]. There is a decent chance that PAF will execute the option for another 18 Block-52+ (from 2006 contract) and maybe add 1 or 2 squadrons - bringing the total new-built fleet to the original 50~75 figure before the 2005 Earthquake. 

_Beyond that..._ the USAF is retiring 178 F-16C/Ds through the BRAC program and I'd imagine additional airframes will be in stock via ANG phase-outs. PAF might want to procure a few airframes as attrition replacements or even to raise a couple more squadrons. The CCIP upgrades as well as even future AESA radar options (SABR and RACR) should make these used F-16s as potent as the new-built & MLUs.

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## Donatello

Mark Sien said:


> U.S. 'reimbursed' Pakistan in the 1990s for the 28 ex-PG III/IV F-16s in both cash and soy beans. However, the delivery of 14 of the 28 ex-PG F-16s commenced in 2005 and concluded by 2008. Since 2005-2006 the PAF asked for the remaining 14 ex-PG III/IV F-16s from the U.S Navy, but the latter was reluctant to transfer. As a result the U.S Air Force stepped in and offered PAF access to used F-16s from USAF and U.S ANG stocks.
> 
> Recently through some agreement, the PAF will be getting 14 F-16A/Bs through the Excess Defence Articles (EDA) program. According to H Khan on PakDef, delivery will begin from September.
> 
> My personal opinion...the F-16 will become what Mirage III/IV in PAF is today; except serve in the middle tier as a high-tech fighter. The Lockheed Martin production line will not close F-16 production until 2014 - i.e. Oman's order if finalized (link)[/URL]. There is a decent chance that PAF will execute the option for another 18 Block-52+ (from 2006 contract) and maybe add 1 or 2 squadrons - bringing the total new-built fleet to the original 50~75 figure before the 2005 Earthquake.
> 
> _Beyond that..._ the USAF is retiring 178 F-16C/Ds through the BRAC program and I'd imagine additional airframes will be in stock via ANG phase-outs. PAF might want to procure a few airframes as attrition replacements or even to raise a couple more squadrons. The CCIP upgrades as well as even future AESA radar options (SABR and RACR) should make these used F-16s as potent as the new-built & MLUs.





Depending on the political climate that is, we must ensure we get them as soon as possible. There is new elections coming up in 2012 in USA and Democratic party is just so gonna lose.

Anyway, our current f-16 air bases are sargodha and jacobabad. I hope they put in necessary infrastruction to keep these birds flying, as well as PAC, because PAC is already busy re-tooling for the JF-17s.....


But then i suppose F-7/Mirage factories will close as they are phased out


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## muse

Why more F16's ? Soon the F35 will replace F16 in the inventories of Western Air Forces and these will need a home -- better to develop industrial expertise that allows us to do to the kinds of refurbishment we may wish to do on these aircraft should we purchase them.

A continuing problem with any US aircraft will be gauranteed supply, spares and the economics of operating US equipment - I'm all for good relations with US -- but the greater the involvement of the US in the kind of force the PAF becomes, the less our autonomy of action with regard to what we think we want/need and how and when/where to use these assets.

I would like to remind readers of US/Pak relations - they have never had a solid basis, and they don't have one now - it's very sad and distressing to see this blind rush to include the US in Pakistani power, it's a terrible, terrible mistake.

Some have argued that it makes sense given an India that is going huff and puff our house down - now I'm not suggesting that the Indian don't have that capablity or that some sections of opinion are not desperately seeking just that -- but between the US and India which is a greater net negative for Pakistan in the near and medium future? I would argue without a doubt, it's the US - The Indian may want to make mischief but he knows that everything built in the last 25 years and the future will disappear overnight if they engage in hostilities - The US on the other hand will continue to be a threat to all, it will not allow peace in Afghanistan and will ensure that peace between Pakistan and India will never become a reality, it's simply not in it's interest.

Lets reconsider this rush to redevelop relations that have no solid basis, are at best transitory, are designed to keep Pakistan in perpetual state of threat from India, and threaten to create distance between our true friends and allies. It's a dog.

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## Quwa

penumbra said:


> Depending on the political climate that is, we must ensure we get them as soon as possible. There is new elections coming up in 2012 in USA and Democratic party is just so gonna lose.


People were worried what would happen when the Republicans lost. 

Nowadays it would seem the U.S (in particular the Pentagon) is trying to consolidate and maintain its relations with Pakistan. Granted that Afghanistan was a significant pillar for U.S. leniency towards Pakistan, but there are longer-term matters at hand. There is a reason why the Americans are pushing for greater interoperability with the Pakistani forces. The inclusion in Red Flag, Green Flag, CTF-150, etc, sale of Link-16, and offer of Hawkeye 2000 cannot be taken too lightly. They may not seem like much, but these sorts of initiatives, offerings and sales are not easily granted/transfered under 'short-term arrangements'.

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## Quwa

muse said:


> Why more F16's ? Soon the F35 will replace F16 in the inventories of Western Air Forces and these will need a home ---


Can't say 'how soon' yet though...it would seem that key F-16 operators will be flying their F-16s for a while. Nonetheless, additional F-16s have their merit: A technologically advanced and matured fighter already in service with PAF, follow-on orders should be smooth inductions. Secondly, considerable investment has gone into raising infrastructure for the C/Ds, why not utilize the basics to enhance capabilities? In substantive terms, the Block-52+, MLU and CCIP are solid contenders against the general IAF fleet, I daresay even the future MRCAs. And should new embargoes hit Pakistan, well the additional airframes would come in handy as reserves for attrition and spare-parts - keep a good fighter useful when needed.


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## Trisonics

muse said:


> Why more F16's ? Soon the F35 will replace F16 in the inventories of Western Air Forces and these will need a home -- better to develop industrial expertise that allows us to do to the kinds of refurbishment we may wish to do on these aircraft should we purchase them.
> 
> A continuing problem with any US aircraft will be gauranteed supply, spares and the economics of operating US equipment - I'm all for good relations with US -- but the greater the involvement of the US in the kind of force the PAF becomes, the less our autonomy of action with regard to what we think we want/need and how and when/where to use these assets.
> 
> I would like to remind readers of US/Pak relations - they have never had a soldi basis, and they don't have one now - it's very sad and distressing to see this blind rush to include the US in Pakistani power, it's a terrible, terrible mistake.
> 
> Some have argued that it makes sense given an India that is going huff and puff our house down - now I'm not suggesting that the Indian don't have that capablity or that some sections of opinion are not desperately seeking just that -- but between the US and India which is a greater net negative for Pakistan in the near and medium future? I would argue without a doubt, it's the US - The Indian may want to make mischief but he knows that everything built in the last 25 years and the future will disappear overnight if they engage in hostilities - The US on the other hand will continue to be a threat to all, it will not allow peace in Afghanistan and will ensure that peace between Pakistan and India will never become a reality, it's simply not in it's interest.
> 
> Lets reconsider this rush to redevelop relations that have no solid basis, are at best transitory, are designed to keep Pakistan in perpetual state of threat from India, and threaten to create distance between are true friends and allies. It's a dog.



I do agree with some of your points, but in-spite of the love-hate relationship with the US, they are still the only source for Pak to get the latest military technology, its not the Chinese!!! I do not see a reason why you will not get the F35 in a decades time, provided the WOT ends amicably and the US is greatly satisfied. 

As far as the relation ship with India goes, the first blame should go to both India and Pakistan for not mending their ways for the past 60 years. Seriously! there can be no excuse for this!!

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## Donatello

muse said:


> Why more F16's ? Soon the F35 will replace F16 in the inventories of Western Air Forces and these will need a home -- better to develop industrial expertise that allows us to do to the kinds of refurbishment we may wish to do on these aircraft should we purchase them.
> 
> A continuing problem with any US aircraft will be gauranteed supply, spares and the economics of operating US equipment - I'm all for good relations with US -- but the greater the involvement of the US in the kind of force the PAF becomes, the less our autonomy of action with regard to what we think we want/need and how and when/where to use these assets.
> 
> I would like to remind readers of US/Pak relations - they have never had a soldi basis, and they don't have one now - it's very sad and distressing to see this blind rush to include the US in Pakistani power, it's a terrible, terrible mistake.
> 
> Some have argued that it makes sense given an India that is going huff and puff our house down - now I'm not suggesting that the Indian don't have that capablity or that some sections of opinion are not desperately seeking just that -- but between the US and India which is a greater net negative for Pakistan in the near and medium future? I would argue without a doubt, it's the US - The Indian may want to make mischief but he knows that everything built in the last 25 years and the future will disappear overnight if they engage in hostilities - The US on the other hand will continue to be a threat to all, it will not allow peace in Afghanistan and will ensure that peace between Pakistan and India will never become a reality, it's simply not in it's interest.
> 
> Lets reconsider this rush to redevelop relations that have no solid basis, are at best transitory, are designed to keep Pakistan in perpetual state of threat from India, and threaten to create distance between are true friends and allies. It's a dog.





Easy mate.

Pakistan is not making USA it's backbone supplier.


F-16s, we are carefully selecting them and buying as stop gaps.

Future is with J-17 and J-10s...

American Hardware comes from their own money (Some will argue that money is for our blood in the so called WOT) but if we buy equipment from Europe we have to pay ourselves.

That leaves China, with which we have countless orders and JVs. Evident from the latest ships, Subs, Planes, MBRLs, Missiles, Tanks and other know-how that Chinese are giving us.


Even if we get 70 f-16s that is still much less than a third of our airforce.

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## TOPGUN

From what i have heard from some PAF personal active and retd... PAF would like to maintain a fleet of alteast 100 vipers old and new lets see where it takes us.


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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> From what i have heard from some PAF personal active and retd... PAF would like to maintain a fleet of alteast 100 vipers old and new lets see where it takes us.



PAF's original plan was exactly that

1st order - 40
2nd order - 11(attrition order)
3rd order - 60
total - 111


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## muse

> Even if we get 70 f-16s that is still much less than a third of our airforce.




That's a third that cannot be useful -- It's a very big chance to take - I don't think we should take such a chance at all, it's foolish to gamble in this manner. Sooner or later Pak/US relations will take a nose dive, it's built in, it's a house of cards - at which point you will have a third of the Air Force useless, and a third on which all this time, effort, infrastructure and money will have been spent. 

And these aircraft come with full time US minders - sure in the event of hostility they will be secured, but in the meantime, they will have gathered information about officers, airmen, facilites and capablities and intentions.

I realize that PAF and policy planners know this better than us, and I would point out that this suggests a greater strategic understanding which should be even more worrisome to Pakistanis, their friends and allies.

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## Arsalan

shanixee said:


> After mumbai attack...2 indian aircraft crossed Pakistani border but were intersepted and locked by our F16s...few say the were M2k. Mig 29 and few say it was Su30. if it was su30. dont it also work as mini Awaks. i mean cant su30 jam F16 or atleast know its location before it locks it



brother just to correct your info:
it was the Mirages that locked the Su-30 and not the F-16z from PAF side.
as a matter of fact non of our F-16 possessed BVR capability at the time of this particular intrusion.
the F-16 BVR ability is just induced last mont after the induction of F-16 Blk52.
(old fleet of F-16 will also be made BVR by MLU and STAR upgrades)


regards!


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## Arsalan

BATMAN said:


> PAF had ordered a big package including new engines, airframe reinforcements, targeting pods, customised avionics and counter warfares etc.. but no news no updates on MLU.. what so ever.
> *Only BVR AIM 120-C5M delivery became public*.



and that too is supposedly with the Blk52 purchase.

as for MLU, i agre that there has been much silence, we are also supposed to go for STAR upgrades by TAI after the MLU bringinf the existing fleet on par with blk50/52. howevr what i have learnt from my experience here on this forum, that exaactly is the way PAF does it...Silience.. 

regards!


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## Arsalan

muse said:


> Why more F16's ? Soon the F35 will replace F16 in the inventories of Western Air Forces and these will need a home -- better to develop industrial expertise that allows us to do to the kinds of refurbishment we may wish to do on these aircraft should we purchase them.
> 
> A continuing problem with any US aircraft will be gauranteed supply, spares and the economics of operating US equipment - I'm all for good relations with US -- but the greater the involvement of the US in the kind of force the PAF becomes, the less our autonomy of action with regard to what we think we want/need and how and when/where to use these assets.
> 
> I would like to remind readers of US/Pak relations - they have never had a solid basis, and they don't have one now - it's very sad and distressing to see this blind rush to include the US in Pakistani power, it's a terrible, terrible mistake.
> 
> Some have argued that it makes sense given an India that is going huff and puff our house down - now I'm not suggesting that the Indian don't have that capablity or that some sections of opinion are not desperately seeking just that -- but between the US and India which is a greater net negative for Pakistan in the near and medium future? I would argue without a doubt, it's the US - The Indian may want to make mischief but he knows that everything built in the last 25 years and the future will disappear overnight if they engage in hostilities - The US on the other hand will continue to be a threat to all, it will not allow peace in Afghanistan and will ensure that peace between Pakistan and India will never become a reality, it's simply not in it's interest.
> 
> Lets reconsider this rush to redevelop relations that have no solid basis, are at best transitory, are designed to keep Pakistan in perpetual state of threat from India, and threaten to create distance between our true friends and allies. It's a dog.



spot on 

what i think is that Pakistan must/is not relay on US equipment to be the work horses of our armed forces. as far as the matter are going so far, that is how we are proceeding.

we get the USN old frigates, i was really disappointed but then i realized that what is the lose in getting them when we are getting them for free and we have F22p and proposed heavier vessels from China and Turkey as front liners...

same goes for air force, we are getting F-16. there are talks of PAF keeping a 90+ fleet of vipers but when you look at other equipments planned for newar future, one realize that PAF is looking to make the FC-20 and the JFT next block the pride of PAF.
for me, the F-16 in years to come will held the same place in PAF, the F-7 and Mirages held in past years when the Vipers ndeed were the pride Gadgets.

similarly the Hawkeye deal,,, do not forget the KJ-200 and erieye.

all in all, that is good going as far as i think...

regards!


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## razgriz19

is there any chance for PAF getting f-35?
obviously not now, but like in next 15 years or so....


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## mjnaushad

razgriz19 said:


> is there any chance for PAF getting f-35?
> obviously not now, but like in next 15 years or so....


Turkey  

A partner in the project so Turkey might have rights to sell us the plane.


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## muse

Not likely -- Anyway, look at building not buying, we are not arabs after all.

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## MZUBAIR

Money is another isssue.........we cant buy 5th generation expensive AC's


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## mjnaushad

muse said:


> Not likely -- Anyway, look at building not buying, we are not arabs after all.


I was just saying if we buy *F35* we might buy from.......

But if we buy 5th genration fighter then its going to be chineese jxx no matter when it comes out.....


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## razgriz19

mjnaushad said:


> I was just saying if we buy *F35* we might buy from.......
> 
> But if we buy 5th genration fighter then its going to be chineese jxx no matter when it comes out.....



i guess ur right but chinese 5th eneration will probably a twin engine a/c.........and u kno PAF is very alergic to twin engine aircrafts!

but PAF probably will buy 2-3 squads max...


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## Luftwaffe

Just hope for better Economy in next 15 Years. You might see more than 3 Squadrons in the future.


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## SQ8

razgriz19 said:


> i guess ur right but chinese 5th eneration will probably a twin engine a/c.........and u kno PAF is very alergic to twin engine aircrafts!
> 
> but PAF probably will buy 2-3 squads max...



How exactly is it allergic to twin engine aircraft?? 
Having operated B-57's, F-6's, A-5's throughout its lifetime, having an allergy to twins makes no sense. And if twin engine's were such an issue, the PAF would never have tried for the EF, Rafale ,Fulcrum or Flanker series.
Its a fairly weird logic there...which Ive only heard from Indian members till now who were unaware of the PAF's history..

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## Quwa

razgriz19 said:


> i guess ur right but chinese 5th eneration will probably a twin engine a/c.........and u kno PAF is very alergic to twin engine aircrafts!
> 
> but PAF probably will buy 2-3 squads max...


China has two 5th generation programs, one heavyweight twin engine fighter similar to PAK-FA and F/A-22, as well as a medium-weight design. It is unclear if the medium weight design is single or twin engine, but regardless, I don't think PAF has an inherent issue with twin engine fighters. Traditionally, the twin-engine types have been larger and more expensive to maintain - but PAF was positive towards having F-5 Tiger IIs back in the early 1970s. Hence it shouldn't be a problem if a medium weight 5th generation fighter is offered...capabilities above F-35 but at reasonable costs.

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## blain2

muse said:


> Not likely -- Anyway, look at building not buying, we are not arabs after all.



Last I checked, Egyptians were building/assembling quite a bit on their own, from their own Chinese aircraft to Abrams tanks (since 1988), all in country. 
Saudis support all of their platforms themselves in country.


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## Donatello

Mark Sien said:


> China has two 5th generation programs, one heavyweight twin engine fighter similar to PAK-FA and F/A-22, as well as a medium-weight design. It is unclear if the medium weight design is single or twin engine, but regardless, I don't think PAF has an inherent issue with twin engine fighters. Traditionally, the twin-engine types have been larger and more expensive to maintain - but PAF was positive towards having F-5 Tiger IIs back in the early 1970s. Hence it shouldn't be a problem if a medium weight 5th generation fighter is offered...capabilities above F-35 but at reasonable costs.




I hope they make it similar to F/A 22. The whole concept of F-35 is that missiles will do the turning and chasing, but if it ever came down to F-35 in dog fighting, it's worse than F-4. At least that's what the members on f-16.net forum were saying.

F/A22 is the real deal, with dog fighting and advanced avionics it surely is a great plane though not the best one for value for money. I bet PAF is looking for something, and J-xx might be their only solution.


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## fatman17

santro said:


> How exactly is it allergic to twin engine aircraft??
> Having operated B-57's, F-6's, A-5's throughout its lifetime, having an allergy to twins makes no sense. And if twin engine's were such an issue, the PAF would never have tried for the EF, Rafale ,Fulcrum or Flanker series.
> Its a fairly weird logic there...which Ive only heard from Indian members till now who were unaware of the PAF's history..



i think it has been an issue, twin-engine a/c. remember PAF initial requirement for the A-5s was ~150 a/c but only abt 55 were inducted. ofcourse there were other issues with the A-5. PAF friends have termed the A-5 'rustic' until abt 22 improvements were made.

F-6 according to my info (even though inducted in numerous numbers) remained a high maintenance a/c. (every 100 hrs or so). so yes in a sense PAF had issues but if a 'technologically superior' twin-engine is offered they wld consider it.

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## muse

> Saudis support all of their platforms themselves in country



So you would propose we have every US defence manufacturer set up shop in Pakistan, like they have in Saudi -- no, the Saudi was not exactly a fair example - I'm sort of traditional Arab to me are peole from the Arabian peninsula - you and I speak English, that does not make us englishmen


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## Luftwaffe

Does anyone has any information if its correct that flood warnings issued including there is a danger to Jacobabad "Shahbaz" Air Base.


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## blain2

muse said:


> So you would propose we have every US defence manufacturer set up shop in Pakistan, like they have in Saudi -- no, the Saudi was not exactly a fair example - I'm sort of traditional Arab to me are peole from the Arabian peninsula - you and I speak English, that does not make us englishmen



The Saudis have US and British support, but the bulk of work is done by Saudis themselves even though they have contractors to direct the work. May not be a perfect example, but also not one which disproves my point. 

Egyptians are a very fair example. They do just as much as Pakistan does in their own indigenous programs. Until the joint JF-17 venture, they were doing the same level of depot maintenance and development/assembly work as Pakistan.

Gulf is a different issue. They'd rather spend money on building high rises than investing in something of substance. Saudis are better than all of the other Gulf countries in terms of indigenous military production and support.

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## Bratva

Forgive my ignorance, Does F-16 blk 52 has an IRST? If it has whats its specs?


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## SQ8

mafiya said:


> Forgive my ignorance, Does F-16 blk 52 has an IRST? If it has whats its specs?



No IRST integrated till the block 60,


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## air marshal

*Here is the first F16C block 52 for Pakistan Air Force during its delivery flight!*

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## DANGER-ZONE



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## Bratva

santro said:


> No IRST integrated till the block 60,



I'm Little confused here,, because there is so much emphasis being given to IRST to be put on JF-17 and when i heard F-16 Blk 52 came without it,,, it sounds weird to me, Can't Pakistan Requested for IRST with F-16's.
=======================================================
Here is a Report of IRST being tested on F-16 in 1996-97

LOCKHEED MARTIN is building an infra-red search-and-track (IRST) sensor pod for flight demonstration on its F-16 in April-May 1997.
The company sees a substantial export market for the sensor, a podded version of the AAS-42 IRST in service since 1994 on US Navy Grumman F-14Ds. It has been cleared to offer the system to Japan for a McDonnell Douglas F-15 upgrade.
The IRST is a long-wavelength infra-red sensor which can produce a thermal image for display in the cockpit and target data for the mission computer. Compared with a radar, the passive sensor can scan a larger volume at longer range and with higher resolution.
Lockheed Martin Electronic Systems says that interest centres on the ability to launch the Hughes AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile with the radar off. The missile would be launched at a detected target and tracked by the passive IRST, with mid-course updates provided via the radar in low-probability-of-intercept mode, and active-radar terminal guidance.
The Orlando, Florida-based company says that combat analyses have indicated that F-16s with an IRST would have an improved loss-exchange ratio against the Sukhoi Su-27 by a factor of 2.3, and against the improved Sukhoi Su-35, which has a reduced radar cross-section, by almost 3.5.
Additionally, customers are interested in using the IRST for "non-hostile" cross-border surveillance, and as an alternative to acquiring expensive airborne early-warning aircraft, Lockheed Martin says. Tests are being conducted of its ability to track tactical ballistic missiles.

Lockheed Martin building F-16 IRST-08/05/1996-Flight International


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## Materialistic

> i guess ur right but chinese 5th eneration will probably a twin engine a/c.........and u kno PAF is very alergic to twin engine aircrafts!
> 
> but PAF probably will buy 2-3 squads max...



When we will think of buying 5th generation, then of course we will be having enough money, which means no allergy to twin engine aircrafts!!

Also, if it is the case of only 2-3 squadrons then PAF might give an exception towards twin engines.


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## TOPGUN

Materialistic said:


> When we will think of buying 5th generation, then of course we will be having enough money, which means no allergy to twin engine aircrafts!!
> 
> Also, if it is the case of only 2-3 squadrons then PAF might give an exception towards twin engines.



When we have serious funds for it when a nation is willing sell us one ... when we fix the rear end of the force before moving on to bigger toys its clear logic you fix your force first which needs alot of fixing and then move on to bigger and better things plzz read up and understand what PAF is doing for the next few years thx.


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## MastanKhan

Gentlemen,

I just read the news that Jamali the ex pm wanted to flood the F 16 jacobabad air base----he is continuously saying that the american base was saved and the canal was breached towards baluchistan.

Any further news---please post. Thanks.


----------



## mshoaib61

MastanKhan said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> I just read the news that Jamali the ex pm wanted to flood the F 16 jacobabad air base----he is continuously saying that the american base was saved and the canal was breached towards baluchistan.
> 
> Any further news---please post. Thanks.



According to dawn newspaper flood water is already touching walls of shabaz airbase

DAWN.COM | Front Page | Jacobabad faces worst disaster in its history


----------



## Quwa

Well I guess there goes the condition about keeping the F-16s at Jacobabad - at least for now...


----------



## Donatello

mafiya said:


> I'm Little confused here,, because there is so much emphasis being given to IRST to be put on JF-17 and when i heard F-16 Blk 52 came without it,,, it sounds weird to me, Can't Pakistan Requested for IRST with F-16's.
> =======================================================
> Here is a Report of IRST being tested on F-16 in 1996-97
> 
> LOCKHEED MARTIN is building an infra-red search-and-track (IRST) sensor pod for flight demonstration on its F-16 in April-May 1997.
> The company sees a substantial export market for the sensor, a podded version of the AAS-42 IRST in service since 1994 on US Navy Grumman F-14Ds. It has been cleared to offer the system to Japan for a McDonnell Douglas F-15 upgrade.
> The IRST is a long-wavelength infra-red sensor which can produce a thermal image for display in the cockpit and target data for the mission computer. Compared with a radar, the passive sensor can scan a larger volume at longer range and with higher resolution.
> Lockheed Martin Electronic Systems says that interest centres on the ability to launch the Hughes AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile with the radar off. The missile would be launched at a detected target and tracked by the passive IRST, with mid-course updates provided via the radar in low-probability-of-intercept mode, and active-radar terminal guidance.
> The Orlando, Florida-based company says that combat analyses have indicated that F-16s with an IRST would have an improved loss-exchange ratio against the Sukhoi Su-27 by a factor of 2.3, and against the improved Sukhoi Su-35, which has a reduced radar cross-section, by almost 3.5.
> Additionally, customers are interested in using the IRST for "non-hostile" cross-border surveillance, and as an alternative to acquiring expensive airborne early-warning aircraft, Lockheed Martin says. Tests are being conducted of its ability to track tactical ballistic missiles.
> 
> Lockheed Martin building F-16 IRST-08/05/1996-Flight International





F-16s dont have integrated FLIR or IRST......hence the Sniper Pod acquired by Pakistan which can easily counter such deficiencies....


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## Donatello

air marshal said:


> *Here is the first F16C block 52 for Pakistan Air Force during its delivery flight!*



Are you sure? Because it doesn't seem to have the dorsal spine for CFTs..?


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## TaimiKhan

penumbra said:


> Are you sure? Because it doesn't seem to have the dorsal spine for CFTs..?



Dorsal spine is in the twin seat version to accommodate the stuff whose place is taken up by the second pilot area. 

CFTs have not yet been showed on any newer F-16 jet, even the 4 which came did not had any. 

They may come later on or may be the PAF does not wants to show them for now.


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## Quwa

TaimiKhan said:


> Dorsal spine is in the twin seat version to accommodate the stuff whose place is taken up by the second pilot area.
> 
> CFTs have not yet been showed on any newer F-16 jet, even the 4 which came did not had any.
> 
> They may come later on or may be the PAF does not wants to show them for now.


PAF ordered CFTs but said it'll only use them in certain circumstances.


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## Arsalan

razgriz19 said:


> i guess ur right but chinese 5th eneration will probably a twin engine a/c.........and u kno PAF is very alergic to twin engine aircrafts!
> 
> but PAF probably will buy 2-3 squads max...



PAF is allergic at the moment but time will time will cure this allergy for sure 

at present PAF is wise enough not to opt for maintainance beasts. it is an intresting fact that despite IAF sheer advantage in terms of number of planes the number of sorties they can fly is not that much higher then ours and thus this narrows the numeric gap! 

as for the next generations, the twin engines wont be that much of a trouble. with high technological advancement the number of sorties can be filled in by other 4 and 4.5 generation planes!

i dont see PAF rejection a good fifth generation plane of offer just because it is a twin engine!!
however i still am a hardcore supporter of anti-stealth technology radars, when onboard F-7PGs, can even turn them into Raptor Killers 

regards!


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## Arsalan

santro said:


> How exactly is it allergic to twin engine aircraft??
> Having operated B-57's, F-6's, A-5's throughout its lifetime, having an allergy to twins makes no sense. And if twin engine's were such an issue, the PAF would never have tried for the EF, Rafale ,Fulcrum or Flanker series.
> Its a fairly weird logic there...which Ive only heard from Indian members till now who were unaware of the PAF's history..



well even though PAF have used twin engines planes in the past, and, by saying that PAF is allergic to Twin engines planes does not means that they can not fly them, but still, the truth is light-megium class single engines planes are preffered over heavier twin engine planes by PAF.

this is a wise choice as mentioned above. the Twin engine, heavy weights are costly to maintaine and require more time of maintainance per flying hour as compared to light fighters. the maintainance night mare, Mig-29 and Su serise are a good example.

if an SU can fly two sorties per day the F-16 can fly three.. and that too with shorter gaps!

regards!


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## Arsalan

Mark Sien said:


> PAF ordered CFTs but said it'll only use them in certain circumstances.





> i wish one of those *certain circumstances* had included making the wish of thousands of passionates come true who want to see the PAF F-16 with the CFTs




that really give the vipers a look of a beast 

regards!

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## DANGER-ZONE

* Built for Pakistan as 92738 but then embargoed. After many years in storage it became operational in 2003 with the 416th FLTS at Edwards*





*Built for Pakistan as 92617 but then embargoed. Delivered to Edwards AFB Flight Test Center in 2003.*

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## fatman17

danger-zone said:


> * Built for Pakistan as 92738 but then embargoed. After many years in storage it became operational in 2003 with the 416th FLTS at Edwards*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Built for Pakistan as 92617 but then embargoed. Delivered to Edwards AFB Flight Test Center in 2003.*



all 14 vipers have been delivered to the PAF !!!

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## air marshal

*August 16, 1978: Israel orders 75 F-16s (Peace Marbel I) becoming the 6th customer.*


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## Momin

air marshal said:


> *August 16, 1978: Israel orders 75 F-16s (Peace Marbel I) becoming the 6th customer.*



I am sorry sir, but what this post has to do with this topic


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## Donatello

TaimiKhan said:


> Dorsal spine is in the twin seat version to accommodate the stuff whose place is taken up by the second pilot area.
> 
> CFTs have not yet been showed on any newer F-16 jet, even the 4 which came did not had any.
> 
> They may come later on or may be the PAF does not wants to show them for now.





Sir,

Dorsal spine is supposed to be there for both block C and D. That's what i read. 

Secondly, PAF can use CFTs whenever they want. They are not permanent so regardless of whether you see or not see the dorsal spine, it's doesn't always need to have the CFTs. They are removable and can be added later.


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## MZUBAIR

I heard that weapons and F-16's have been moved from Shahbaz Air Base (Jacoavabad), coz of the flood threat.
Any confirm newz.


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## DANGER-ZONE

MZUBAIR said:


> I heard that weapons and F-16's have been moved from Shahbaz Air Base (Jacoavabad), coz of the flood threat.
> Any confirm newz.



Ya ! they are moved to Kamara where Chinese engineers gave a warm welcome to new machines.

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## mjnaushad

MZUBAIR said:


> I heard that weapons and F-16's have been moved from Shahbaz Air Base (Jacoavabad), coz of the flood threat.
> Any confirm newz.


Possible....Because if you see nowshera right now....You wont find single army building not effected by flood.


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## air marshal

*August 20, 1982: PAF accepts first F-16 from Peace Gate I order.*


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## ANG

Hi, I honestly think the PAF does not fully control these F-16s. The current state of the nation reminds of a "hijra". Bend me over, but please pay me... These expensive toys will not even turn on, if a conflict starts with party the USA does not approve of. Take care.

Who really controls Shahbaz Air Base? | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## Patriot

ANG said:


> Hi, I honestly think the PAF does not fully control these F-16s. The current state of the nation reminds of a "hijra". Bend me over, but please pay me... These expensive toys will not even turn on, if a conflict starts with party the USA does not approve of. Take care.
> 
> Who really controls Shahbaz Air Base? | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online


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## Donatello

Shahbaz airbase was under PAF control all the time. But because it was not a full time base, it was given to the USA. 

Now as PAF is placing the new F-16s there, it has become an entirely new base, a full time one for PAF. It is possible that Americans can still use it just like they used the Peshawar airbase in North during the Soviet-American cold war for U2 missions and recently the earth quake and flood situation.


Now the journalist who wrote up this absolutely piece of shyt article saying the F-16s won't even turn on, one might want to look at his credentials and the fact that highly proven and professional PAF people are dumb and he is smart?


I mean, it's journalism. These guys probably couldn't complete college degree and ended being reporters. None the less they earn their pay checks by creating bull shyt or as we know, masala.


Please stop this non-sense.


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## Donatello

ANG said:


> Hi, I honestly think the PAF does not fully control these F-16s. The current state of the nation reminds of a "hijra". Bend me over, but please pay me... These expensive toys will not even turn on, if a conflict starts with party the USA does not approve of. Take care.
> 
> Who really controls Shahbaz Air Base? | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online





Just look at his list of interests on Linkedin......


kaswar klasra - Pakistan | LinkedIn

"......Interested In:

* career opportunities
* consulting offers
* new ventures
* job inquiries
* expertise requests
* business deals
* reference requests
* getting back in touch....."


^^^^^

Doesn't mention anything about his professionalism in the field of defense matters.....or how F-16s work.


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## hataf

latest google earth shows that new bunkers are constructed at shahbaz air base

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## BATMAN

ANG said:


> Hi, I honestly think the PAF does not fully control these F-16s. The current state of the nation reminds of a "hijra". Bend me over, but please pay me... These expensive toys will not even turn on, if a conflict starts with party the USA does not approve of. Take care.
> 
> Who really controls Shahbaz Air Base? | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online



US have bases all around the globe. while Pakistan is officially an ally.

Even those are not shy to have relations with US, who once were called a nation of 'treacherous' 'wicked' 'war mongers' and even 'bastards'.

FYI, Visa to US state and private officials are stamped in Pak embassy US.


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## DANGER-ZONE

*PAF F-16D block 52 #10804 is seen landing at Lajes Field, Azores during a stopover before delivery to Pakistan on June 22nd, 2010*

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## Tajdar adil

can anyone tell me that why Russia dont give us fighter aircrafts.


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## Arsalan

Tajdar adil said:


> can anyone tell me that why Russia dont give us fighter aircrafts.



who told you that they dont give us fighter aircrafts???


----------



## majesticpankaj

arsalanaslam123 said:


> who told you that they dont give us fighter aircrafts???


because, they won't forget what you did to them in afganistan


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## hataf

majesticpankaj said:


> because, they won't forget what you did to them in afganistan



i think every country has the right to protect its interest


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Russia is not an enemy country, but they arent a strategic ally. They supply the hindustanys.


actually if you look at history, the Russians were never really averse to supplying Pakistan with arms; we just never accepted the proposals or gave them much lift. Playing a balancing act between China and U.S. is one thing. Playing a balancing act between U.S. and Russia is a bit more challenging --especially as far as defence cooperation or other strategic issues are concerned. 

we arent the kyrgyzstanis or the french!

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## Arsalan

*the birds flying home*

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## Arsalan

just browsing through the vedios and found an old intresting one. posting here for your review:
the concept is
*"Road Runways"*





note that it shows the PAF planes using the lahore-Islamabad motorway as runway.
if you have been through this patch of motorway, one can clearly see the treess a bit more off-road then ususal and removable sepraters instead of rigid ones

here it is:





*the events are from High Mark 2010 exercise.*

regards!

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

if we pay russia money they will provide us with aircaft as they they provided us with rd-93 for jf-17..... very simple


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## MastanKhan

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> if we pay russia money they will provide us with aircaft as they they provided us with rd-93 for jf-17..... very simple



Hi,

Sorry---you are mistaken---the russians won't. That is a very bad way of asking the russians or anyone else---. 

You will have to change your game plan and policies---talk to the russians as the russians want to be talked to---I guess you won't understand what I am saying---also the indians would need tro default on their weapons purchase to force the russians.


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## rockstarIN

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Russia is not an enemy country, but they arent a strategic ally. They supply the hindustanys.
> 
> 
> actually if you look at history, the Russians were never really averse to supplying Pakistan with arms; we just never accepted the proposals or gave them much lift. Playing a balancing act between China and U.S. is one thing. Playing a balancing act between U.S. and Russia is a bit more challenging --especially as far as defence cooperation or other strategic issues are concerned.
> 
> we arent the kyrgyzstanis or the french!




You need more 'soft power' (like bilateral trade, purchasing power, potential to grow etc.) etc in order to balance with US and Russia, not only the strategic location advantage. 

Still Pak Army using Soviet weapons like tanks, got from Ukraine.


----------



## fatman17

Viper Driver

Name Wg.Cmd. Fauad Masud Hatmi 
Country -Pakistan.  
Unit 9th squadron "Griffins" 
Flying F-16s 
Viper Hours 2003 


F-16 Flying Hours
2,000 Hours #432 on the 2K list 
Unit 9th squadron "Griffins"
Date 9 August 2010 

1,000 Hours #2115 on the 1K list 
Unit 11th squadron "Arrows"
Date 13 August 2005

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Sorry---you are mistaken---the russians won't. That is a very bad way of asking the russians or anyone else---.
> 
> You will have to change your game plan and policies---talk to the russians as the russians want to be talked to---I guess you won't understand what I am saying---also the indians would need tro default on their weapons purchase to force the russians.



i think these days money is every thing , when india is buying weapons fron every than why can,t we.....
and i think russians are quite cheaper than americans ....
also we sloud work for multilateral relations now ...


----------



## Sapper

fatman17 said:


> Viper Driver
> 
> Name Wg.Cmd. Fauad Masud Hatmi
> Country -Pakistan.
> Unit 9th squadron "Griffins"
> Flying F-16s
> Viper Hours 2003
> 
> 
> F-16 Flying Hours
> 2,000 Hours #432 on the 2K list
> Unit 9th squadron "Griffins"
> Date 9 August 2010
> 
> 1,000 Hours #2115 on the 1K list
> Unit 11th squadron "Arrows"
> Date 13 August 2005



Just to add, these flying hours are only on Vipers, it is noteworthy that in Pakistan, it takes 500~1500 hours on F7/Mirage3-5 just to qualify for a Viper posting.

Regards,
Sapper


----------



## MastanKhan

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> i think these days money is every thing , when india is buying weapons fron every than why can,t we.....
> and i think russians are quite cheaper than americans ....
> also we sloud work for multilateral relations now ...



Hi,

Mr Niazi---it is good to learn how to deal with people of other nationalities. Money will only take you so far. After that it is all about personal relationships, local interests, similiar ideology.

You get more bees with honey than salt. As for the russians---be greatful that we are getting ther rd93's---Musharraf went to see them a few years ago with a bag full of money---he had you ideas as well---guess what---he came back empty handed.

The russians are not going to sell the indians over the paks---because the bottomline is that the americans won't let go of pakistan.

Pakistan is american and chinese vassal state---. Would yopu be able to name one country that just sells weapons for money only.

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## rockstarIN

France..!!


I think among the arms selling nations, France is more commercial than political..!!


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## siegecrossbow

rockstar said:


> France..!!
> 
> 
> I think among the arms selling nations, France is more commercial than political..!!



They were still pressured into discontinuing the Exocet sales by the English. Not your most reliable arms dealer.


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## Donatello

rockstar said:


> France..!!
> 
> 
> I think among the arms selling nations, France is more commercial than political..!!



Actually it's the other way round........they always involve politics....not to mention their dealings with the PPP government in Pakistan.


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## rizhussain44

Does anyone know when are we receiving the 2nd batch of our Block 52 F16, I guess they were due in August.


----------



## air marshal

*New F-16s moved to air base near Quetta*

ISLAMABAD: Three of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF)s newest acquisitions Block 52 F-16 jet fighters  previously stationed at the Shahbaz airbase near Jacobabad  have been moved to the Samungli airbase near Quetta, sources told The Express Tribune on Saturday. The Shahbaz base was under the threat of being flooded in August. The exact date on which the jets were flown to Quetta could not be ascertained.

However, an official said that the jets will be moved back to the Shahbaz airbase as soon the flood situation improves.

The report said that some members of the technical support team from the Lockheed Martin (the aircraft manufacturer and other officials of the US Air Force, had left the Shahbaz airbase for Quetta, but other members are still there.

Federal Health Secretary Kamran Lashari told a Senate committee last month that the US presence at the base was preventing its use for flood relief operations in Sindh. The PAF and the US Embassy had strongly rejected the statement.

The flood threat was averted because of a comprehensive plan to secure the Shahbaz airbase soon after the floodwaters entered Punjab.

According to the safety plan, the authorities had dug up a canal around the base to prevent the floodwaters from entering the aircraft hangars. Over 22 water lifting pumps are dumping back the floodwaters from the canal back into the Indus River. The base is safe and secure because of this extraordinary safety plan, built with the financial and technical assistance of the US at a cost of millions of dollars.

The fleet of F-16 aircraft arrived in June at the newly-upgraded base, which is under the PAFs Southern Air Command. Earlier, the base, was being used as a Forward Operating Base by the PAF, but very recently it has been upgraded to house the new F-16 aircraft by installing equipment and radar system.

New F-16s moved to air base near Quetta &#8211; The Express Tribune


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## aliyusuf

Express Tribune was the only source which had (sometimes back) reported that the 4th Block-52 F-16 had arrived.

Now in this current report it is stating 3 planes have been shifted to safety.

Why can't it make up it's mind?


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## DANGER-ZONE



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## fatman17

Pakistan Air Force
Block 52 F-16s

F-16C
Serial..........C/n..........USAF Serial (for purpose of delivery)..........Delivered
10901........JE-1........07-0001
10902........JE-2........07-0002
10903........JE-3........07-0003
10904........JE-4........07-0004
10905........JE-5........07-0005
10906........JE-6........07-0006
10907........JE-7........07-0007
10908........JE-8........07-0008
10909........JE-9........07-0009
10910........JE-10......07-0010
10911........JE-11......07-0011
10912........JE-12......07-0012

F-16-D
10801..........JF-1...........07-0013
10802..........JF-2...........07-0014
10803..........JF-3...........07-0015
10804..........JF-4...........07-0016
10805..........JF-5...........07-0017
10806..........JF-6...........07-0018

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## rockstarIN

penumbra said:


> Actually it's the other way round........they always involve politics....not to mention their dealings with the PPP government in Pakistan.



See, if you compare with other arms supplying nations in the west, France is more commercial than US, UK and others. Remember France stopped discussions with Pakistan for JF-17 missiles only when India signed up for Mirage upgradations. US & UK can block and impose arms embargo at any time.


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## Quwa

rockstar said:


> See, if you compare with other arms supplying nations in the west, France is more commercial than US, UK and others. Remember France stopped discussions with Pakistan for JF-17 missiles only when India signed up for Mirage upgradations. US & UK can block and impose arms embargo at any time.


France didn't block anything, this was confirmed on AFM.


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## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> France didn't block anything, this was confirmed on AFM.



MS, the french did 'delay' the delivery of 40 Mirages upgraded by Sagem for a few months as a result of the nuclear tests but later relented.


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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> MS, the french did 'delay' the delivery of 40 Mirages upgraded by Sagem for a few months as a result of the nuclear tests but later relented.


I was referring to the current negotiations on radar & missile for JF-17, the French didn't block anything in recent years (i.e. since 2007) in this regard. As far as I know, the PAF is still talking to them, albeit with greater emphasis on securing a package for export JF-17s than PAF variants. This would significantly lessen the weight on France's shoulders, as it is a pretty big gain for them, i.e. to market their brands further, to be able to have a slice of the export cake (particularly if Egypt buys), and not worry about selling to PAF. 

My understanding is that PAF JF-17s will use domestically produced systems developed jointly between Pakistani and foreign firms - everything from radar, to ECM/EW, avionics, weapon-systems, etc. The JF-17s in PAF will be quite different from the types offered by CAC or the export-packages agreed upon with the West. I expect cooperation in this regard to be done with newer partners such as Turkey's Aselsan, South Africa's Denel, Brazil's Mectron, China's CETC, etc than our traditional European ones. Although some European assistance might be sought, namely from Selex Galileo I'd think.

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## MZUBAIR

rizhussain44 said:


> Does anyone know when are we receiving the 2nd batch of our Block 52 F16, I guess they were due in August.



Yes it was planned in Aug, but the flood in Jacawabad holded the delivery.
Hopefully we will see 8 new F-16's coming in October 10


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## rockstarIN

Mark Sien said:


> I was referring to the current negotiations on radar & missile for JF-17, the French didn't block anything in recent years (i.e. since 2007) in this regard. As far as I know, the PAF is still talking to them, albeit with greater emphasis on securing a package for export JF-17s than PAF variants. This would significantly lessen the weight on France's shoulders, as it is a pretty big gain for them, i.e. to market their brands further, to be able to have a slice of the export cake (particularly if Egypt buys), and not worry about selling to PAF.
> 
> My understanding is that PAF JF-17s will use domestically produced systems developed jointly between Pakistani and foreign firms - everything from radar, to ECM/EW, avionics, weapon-systems, etc. The JF-17s in PAF will be quite different from the types offered by CAC or the export-packages agreed upon with the West. I expect cooperation in this regard to be done with newer partners such as Turkey's Aselsan, South Africa's Denel, Brazil's Mectron, China's CETC, etc than our traditional European ones. Although some European assistance might be sought, namely from Selex Galileo I'd think.



If your point is right (negotiations on radar & missile for JF-17 with France is still on ), then it proves my argument (that France is more commercial than political) is correct.

By the way, which French A2As Pakistan looking for JF-17? Matra 550?


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## Quwa

rockstar said:


> If your point is right (negotiations on radar & missile for JF-17 with France is still on ), then it proves my argument (that France is more commercial than political) is correct.
> 
> By the way, which French A2As Pakistan looking for JF-17? Matra 550?


MICA-IR/RF as initially stated by Thales & MBDA at IDEAS 2008 and upheld in all publications to date (including Janes, AFM, etc).

That said, although PAF is emphasizing on the wider-commercial aspect of the deal with France, it doesn't discount PAF from itself acquiring a limited number of MICA-IR/RF for its JF-17. Diversity of systems is good, and they're matured options as well.


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## John Doe

$161M in Enhanced Paveway Kits for&#8230; Whom?

Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, AZ recently received a $161.3 million contract modification to provide Enhanced Paveway II, III and GPS adapter kits, kit spares, adapter groups, readiness test sets, bomb tool kits, enhanced paveway tool sets, CAMBRE adapter kits, and mission planning software. At this time, all funds have been committed by the OO-ALC/GHGKB at Hill AFB, UT (FA8213-08-C-0028).

While &#8220;Paveway&#8221; is a semi-generic term for American laser-guided bomb designs, Enhanced Paveway is a more specific term. Those Raytheon kits that fit onto standard bomb bodies and provide dual-mode GPS/INS and laser guidance. The combination allows laser&#8217;s improved accuracy, while allowing use in sandstorms, fog, and other conditions that defeat laser guidance. Lockheed Martin&#8217;s counterpart is the DMLGB. The flip side of their improved performance is that these kits are more expensive than plain JDAM GPS/INS kits.

Subsequent conversations with Raytheon clarified several things about this sale. CAMBRE is a computerized piece of test equipment that also allows Raytheon to introduce software upgrades. The customer for this sale is not the USAF, but a Foreign Military Sale client that Raytheon &#8220;is not at liberty to disclose.&#8221; An FMS client rules out the Dutch, who are buying their Enhanced Paveways via Direct Commercial Sale. Based on US DSCA notifications, Pakistan and the United Arab Emirates have each submitted requests for 1,600 Enhanced Paveway bomb kits, as armament for their respective F-16 fleets.


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## John Doe

More on CAMBRE:

ATK Missile Systems Co. Integrated Systems Division of Clearwater, Fla., is being awarded a modified contract for $9,234,375. This action exercises options to procure multiple Common Munitions Built-In-Test Reprogrammable Equipment (CAMBRE) Plus units and to modify CMBRE units to a CMBRE Plus configuration. CMBRE&#8217;s Plus is designed to interface with Munitions in an Air Force backshop/flightline or Navy carrier deck environment. CAMBRE Plus will support the fielding of the next generation AMRAAM and Small Diameter Bomb Munitions and allow the war fighter to maintain one configuration for maximum War Fighter flexibility. W-23 Cables (also part of this contract mod) support simultaneous testing of four AMRAAM missiles at one time (which saves time). This action exercising options to purchase 37 CMBRE Plus&#8217;s; Data for CMBRE Plus Production; 175 Modifications of CMBRE units to CMBRE Plus; 9 W-23 cables; and 6 Initial Spares through the CMBRE Program Office at WPAFB, Ohio (ASC/647 AESS). At this time $9,234,375 has been obligated. Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio, is the contracting activity (FA8626-06-C-2060, P00010).


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## DANGER-ZONE

CFTs

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## Imran Khan

no no no we need real pic bro

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## air marshal

*September 12, 1988

PAF F-16 shoot down 2 Soviet MiG-23MLDs Floggers near Nawagai border area with Pakistan, both Kills in a single sortie with AIM-9L and AIM-9P Sidewinders in an encounter with 6 Mig-23's.*

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## air marshal



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## fanna4paf1

air marshal said:


>



yeh bloody dogs ka dil he nai kar raha F-16 dene ko jiss waja se late kar deye hai they news say this year we will receive 8 and next year 10 but before that it was confirm that complete delivery will in this year then whats that and if the delay 2month then why they will in same quantity why not more then 5.

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## Donatello

danger-zone said:


> CFTs





More info on this sketch please.

It's beautiful.


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## Donatello

fanna4paf1 said:


> yeh bloody dogs ka dil he nai kar raha F-16 dene ko jiss waja se late kar deye hai they news say this year we will receive 8 and next year 10 but before that it was confirm that complete delivery will in this year then whats that and if the delay 2month then why they will in same quantity why not more then 5.



Why are they delayed?

Maybe because the current air base is too flooded or risky?

But other than that, it says the PAF will be getting just 5 or 6 more JF-17s......that seems like a joke, because at this rate, the 2015 goal of replacing all Mirage/F-7/A5C seems to be unrealistic, way too unrealistic.


I am not at all concerned about delayed f-16s..other than what treatment they shall receive maybe PAF boys can train on them.....but JF-17s...just 6 of them???


Anyone?


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## DANGER-ZONE

penumbra said:


> More info on this sketch please.
> 
> It's beautiful.



FOR THE LUV OF AVIATION


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## Stealth

*French not interested to sell us Military equipment right now..
US not interested to sell us Military hardware right now ..

Dont worry after MMRCA deal one of interested to sell everything to Pakistan..

HOLD ON BABY *


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## majesticpankaj

Stealth said:


> *French not interested to sell us Military equipment right now..
> US not interested to sell us Military hardware right now ..
> 
> Dont worry after MMRCA deal one of interested to sell everything to Pakistan..
> 
> HOLD ON BABY *


no offense, but can you pay for that?? its a genuine question, ur military budget is like 6bn dollars and cost of these equipment is ever increasing along with operational cost. other thing is how you justify to international community to buy such costly weapons when you are taking so much loan and donation?? as usual, india will be in ur way in procurement of these items. i want to know some pragmatic view rather than mere rhetoric. thanks


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## fanna4paf1

penumbra said:


> Why are they delayed?
> 
> Maybe because the current air base is too flooded or risky?
> 
> But other than that, it says the PAF will be getting just 5 or 6 more JF-17s......that seems like a joke, because at this rate, the 2015 goal of replacing all Mirage/F-7/A5C seems to be unrealistic, way too unrealistic.
> 
> 
> I am not at all concerned about delayed f-16s..other than what treatment they shall receive maybe PAF boys can train on them.....but JF-17s...just 6 of them???
> 
> 
> Anyone?



pakistan not only have one base he have alot of base and we can receive other base like sargodha base but what behind deal of f-16 52 this now it is going to clear now 

we cant use, fly and move these bird without permission of america f-16 block 52 just a speculation that pakistan have actualy not have these are of america just paf colour and flag there is paste there. i am live in sargodha and here every aircraft come A-5 marage f-6 f-7 f-16 blk 15 mother base, awac, air refulr, even gunship helicopter also but i never see till today f-16 block 52 and jf-17 thunder but why its a question mark???????????????????????????????????

i never satisfied with deal of f-16 52blk because it just for looking not use for.

one more think what we are crazy air chief say no american in shabaz airbase. and want f-16 52blk came in pakistan then same time there is main headline that

"america provide f-16 52blk to american force in pakistan" and 200 american also come in pakistan with f-16 52blk}

Eta bara mazaq karte hai hum se humare leader or humari forces

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## Donatello

fanna4paf1 said:


> pakistan not only have one base he have alot of base and we can receive other base like sargodha base but what behind deal of f-16 52 this now it is going to clear now
> 
> we cant use, fly and move these bird without permission of america f-16 block 52 just a speculation that pakistan have actualy not have these are of america just paf colour and flag there is paste there. i am live in sargodha and here every aircraft come A-5 marage f-6 f-7 f-16 blk 15 mother base, awac, air refulr, even gunship helicopter also but i never see till today f-16 block 52 and jf-17 thunder but why its a question mark???????????????????????????????????
> 
> i never satisfied with deal of f-16 52blk because it just for looking not use for.
> 
> one more think what we are crazy air chief say no american in shabaz airbase. and want f-16 52blk came in pakistan then same time there is main headline that
> 
> "america provide f-16 52blk to american force in pakistan" and 200 american also come in pakistan with f-16 52blk}
> 
> Eta bara mazaq karte hai hum se humare leader or humari forces




Take it easy bro,

I couldn't read half of what you said.


The thing is that we only have one airbase to support blk 52s......

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## SBD-3

New Night Eyes Over Pakistan
July 1, 2010: Pakistan recently received three F-16 Block 52 fighters. These are all-weather aircraft, that are particularly effective at night. These are the first all-weather fighters the Pakistani Air Force has received. Another 15 or these aircraft will be delivered by the end of the year.* Pakistan has operated 40 F-16 since the 1990s*, but was barred from buying any more after Pakistan revealed that it had nuclear weapons in 1989. That embargo was lifted in 2005 and another 14 F-16s were delivered by 2008.

Pakistan is paying a Turkish firm to *upgrade its older F-16s from Block 15 configuration to Block 40* (about halfway to the highest upgrade level for an F-16). Now that the U.S. has lifted its arms embargo on Pakistan, there are many firms competing for all the work needed to update older American weapons still used by Pakistan. The Turks have long had good trade relations with Pakistan, and have also developed, with the help of the U.S. and Israel, a growing aircraft maintenance and upgrade industry.* Most of the F-16 work will be done in Pakistan, using Turkish engineers and technicians supervising some local workers, and using largely imported (from Turkey and elsewhere) components. Turkey has long maintained one the largest F-16 fleets outside of the United States.*

The F-16 is the most numerous post-Cold War jet fighter, with over 4,200 built, and still in production. During The Cold War, Russia built over 10,000 MiG-21s, and the U.S over 5,000 F-4s, but since then warplane production has plummeted about 90 percent. But since the end of the Cold War, the F-16 has been popular enough to keep the production lines going.

The U.S. F-16 is one of the most modified jet fighters in service. While most are still called the F-16C, there are actually six major mods, identified by block number (32, 40, 42, 50, 52, 60), plus the Israeli F-16I, which is a major modification of the Block 52. Another special version (the Block 60), for the UAE (United Arab Emirates) is called the F-16E. The F-16D is a two seat trainer version of F-16Cs. The various block mods included a large variety of new components (five engines, four sets of avionics, five generations of electronic warfare gear, five radars and many other mechanical, software, cockpit and electrical mods.)

The F-16 can also function as a bomber and ground attack aircraft, although not as effectively as the air force folks would have you believe. It can carry four tons of bombs. In air-to-air combat, it has shot down 69 aircraft so far, without losing anything to enemy warplanes. It was originally designed as a cheaper alternative to the heavier F-15.

*The two most advanced versions of the F-16 are in use by foreign air forces. The UAE has 80 "Desert Falcons" (the F-16E) which is optimized for air combat. It is a 22 ton aircraft based on the Block 52 model, but with an AESA (phased array) radar and lots of other additional goodies.

The Israeli F-16I is optimized for bombing. It's a 24 ton, two seat aircraft, and is probably the most capable F-16 model in service. It's basically a modified version of the Block 52, equipped with a more advanced radar (the APG-68X) and the ability to carry Israeli weapons like the Python 4 air-to-air missile and the Popeye 2 air-to-surface missile.* Costing $45 million each, the F-16I has an excellent navigation system, which allows it to fly on the deck (a few hundred feet from the ground), without working the pilot to death. The aircraft can do this at night or in any weather. The F-16I can carry enough fuel to hit targets 1,600 kilometers away (meaning Iran is within range). The aircraft uses the latest short and long range air-to-air missiles, as well as smart bombs. Electronic countermeasures are carried, as is a powerful computer system, which records the details of each sortie in great detail. This is a big help for training. The F-16I is basically optimized to deliver smart bombs anywhere, despite dense air defense

For the last two years, Pakistani F-16s have been heavily used in the tribal territories, along the Afghan border, dropping smart and dumb bombs, and giving the pilots experience using targeting pods. This is the first combat experience the Pakistani F-16s have received.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/articles/20100701.aspx


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## MZUBAIR

majesticpankaj said:


> no offense, but can you pay for that?? its a genuine question, ur military budget is like 6bn dollars and cost of these equipment is ever increasing along with operational cost. other thing is how you justify to international community to buy such costly weapons when you are taking so much loan and donation?? as usual, india will be in ur way in procurement of these items. i want to know some pragmatic view rather than mere rhetoric. thanks



Yes we can buy ........
How many times I hav to tell this to all Indians.
Pakistan miltary budget and accounts r seprate then the PAK Gov.
Nither PAK GOV take any thing from miltary budget, nither miltary take any thing from GOV budget.

We have already paid money for 18 new F-16's block 52along with the spare parts ...the upgradation of 45 F16 Block A/B n other miltary hardware. Defence deal since 2001 costed *$ 5 Billion +*

Plz look at the following QUOTE and Source.



> Major post-2001 defense supplies provided, or soon to be provided, under FMF include:
> 
> !eight P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft and their refurbishment (valued at $474 million); *RECIEVED*
> 
> ! about 5,250 TOW anti-armor missiles ($186 million; 2,007 delivered); *RECIEVED*
> 
> ! more than 5,600 military radio sets ($163 million); *RECIEVED*
> 
> ! six AN/TPS-77 surveillance radars ($100 million);v*RECIEVED*
> 
> ! six C-130E transport aircraft and their refurbishment ($76 million); *RECIEVED*
> 
> ! five refurbished SH-2I Super Seasprite maritime helicopters granted under EDA ($67 million);
> 
> 
> ! one ex-Oliver Hazard Perry class missile frigate via EDA ($65 million);
> 
> ! 20 AH-1F Cobra attack helicopters via EDA ($48 million, 12 refurbished and delivered); and
> ! 121 refurbished TOW missile launchers ($25 million). *RECIEVED*
> 
> Supplies paid for with a mix of Pakistani national funds and FMF include:
> ! up to 60 Mid-Life Update kits for F-16A/B combat aircraft (valued at $891 million, with $477
> million of this in FMF, Pakistan currently plans to purchase 35 such kits); and
> ! 115 M-109 self-propelled howitzers ($87 million, with $53 million in FMF).
> Notable items paid or to be paid for entirely with Pakistani national funds include:
> ! 18 new F-16C/D Block 50/52 combat aircraft (valued at $1.43 billion; none delivered to date);
> ! F-16 armaments including 500 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles; 1,450 2,000-pound bombs;
> 500 JDAM Tail Kits for gravity bombs; and 1,600 Enhanced Paveway laser-guided kits, also for gravity bombs ($629 million);
> 
> ! 100 Harpoon anti-ship missiles ($298 million); *RECIEVED*
> ! 500 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles ($95 million); and
> ! six Phalanx Close-In Weapons System naval guns ($80 million).*RECIEVED*



Source


We already paid for JF-17 Project n AC's, J10B, F22P, SAAB AWACS ,Chinees AWACS, UAV's n much much more

So for future plz dont ask abt moneyy  -

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## majesticpankaj

MZUBAIR said:


> Yes we can buy ........
> How many times I hav to tell this to all Indians.
> Pakistan miltary budget and accounts r seprate then the PAK Gov.
> Nither PAK GOV take any thing from miltary budget, nither miltary take any thing from GOV budget.
> 
> We have already paid money for 18 new F-16's block 52along with the spare parts ...the upgradation of 45 F16 Block A/B n other miltary hardware. Defence deal since 2001 costed *$ 5 Billion +*
> 
> Plz look at the following QUOTE and Source.
> 
> 
> 
> Source
> 
> 
> We already paid for JF-17 Project n AC's, J10B, F22P, SAAB AWACS ,Chinees AWACS, UAV's n much much more
> 
> So for future plz dont ask abt moneyy  -


yes, surely you can buy. 5 bn dollars over 10 yeras, like 500mn dollars per year. yup that much you can surely afford


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## mjnaushad

@ MZUBAIR

Buddy if they dont ask about money what else will they post

Most of the post are.

How will you afford it.?

Why do you need it?

you are failed state. Better work on economy.

Where will you get the money from.

You can only buy chinese junk.

Are these freebies? 





And loop starts again

How will you afford it?

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## Quwa

majesticpankaj said:


> yes, surely you can buy. 5 bn dollars over 10 yeras, like 500mn dollars per year. yup that much you can surely afford


Keep in mind...even though Pakistan WILL have trouble affording new-equipment, it does have the option of picking up on EDA. For example, through the EDA program, the PAF can acquire used F-16C/D airframes free of cost...and just end up paying for necessary upgrades. I believe the CCIP that would bring older C/Ds to Block-52+ standards (in terms of radar, avionics, ECM/EW, etc) would cost $20-25mn per fighter. That is well within Pakistan's budget and can allow it to build a formidable force-multiplier fleet through the F-16s.

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## majesticpankaj

Mark Sien said:


> Keep in mind...even though Pakistan WILL have trouble affording new-equipment, it does have the option of picking up on EDA. For example, through the EDA program, the PAF can acquire used F-16C/D airframes free of cost...and just end up paying for necessary upgrades. I believe the CCIP that would bring older C/Ds to Block-52+ standards (in terms of radar, avionics, ECM/EW, etc) would cost $20-25mn per fighter. That is well within Pakistan's budget and can allow it to build a formidable force-multiplier fleet through the F-16s.


sir, they can surely buy what you have mentioned, but the quantity would be less as far as i think. the aids and loans, you cannot divert in purchasing weapons.


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## Quwa

majesticpankaj said:


> sir, they can surely buy what you have mentioned, but the quantity would be less as far as i think. the aids and loans, you cannot divert in purchasing weapons.


The EDA program is specific to Major non-NATO Allies (MNNA) and allows them to acquire excess equipment irrespective of aid programs. The actual equipment through EDA - whether F-16s, helicopters, ships, etc, - come for free to MNNAs. In other words, it has nothing to do with the War on Terror aid....it's literally hardware that can be transfered free of charge, just like the recent Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate PN got...

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## Donatello

hasnain0099 said:


> New Night Eyes Over Pakistan
> July 1, 2010: Pakistan recently received three F-16 Block 52 fighters. These are all-weather aircraft, that are particularly effective at night. These are the first all-weather fighters the Pakistani Air Force has received. Another 15 or these aircraft will be delivered by the end of the year.* Pakistan has operated 40 F-16 since the 1990s*, but was barred from buying any more after Pakistan revealed that it had nuclear weapons in 1989. That embargo was lifted in 2005 and another 14 F-16s were delivered by 2008.
> 
> Pakistan is paying a Turkish firm to *upgrade its older F-16s from Block 15 configuration to Block 40* (about halfway to the highest upgrade level for an F-16). Now that the U.S. has lifted its arms embargo on Pakistan, there are many firms competing for all the work needed to update older American weapons still used by Pakistan. The Turks have long had good trade relations with Pakistan, and have also developed, with the help of the U.S. and Israel, a growing aircraft maintenance and upgrade industry.* Most of the F-16 work will be done in Pakistan, using Turkish engineers and technicians supervising some local workers, and using largely imported (from Turkey and elsewhere) components. Turkey has long maintained one the largest F-16 fleets outside of the United States.*
> 
> The F-16 is the most numerous post-Cold War jet fighter, with over 4,200 built, and still in production. During The Cold War, Russia built over 10,000 MiG-21s, and the U.S over 5,000 F-4s, but since then warplane production has plummeted about 90 percent. But since the end of the Cold War, the F-16 has been popular enough to keep the production lines going.
> 
> The U.S. F-16 is one of the most modified jet fighters in service. While most are still called the F-16C, there are actually six major mods, identified by block number (32, 40, 42, 50, 52, 60), plus the Israeli F-16I, which is a major modification of the Block 52. Another special version (the Block 60), for the UAE (United Arab Emirates) is called the F-16E. The F-16D is a two seat trainer version of F-16Cs. The various block mods included a large variety of new components (five engines, four sets of avionics, five generations of electronic warfare gear, five radars and many other mechanical, software, cockpit and electrical mods.)
> 
> The F-16 can also function as a bomber and ground attack aircraft, although not as effectively as the air force folks would have you believe. It can carry four tons of bombs. In air-to-air combat, it has shot down 69 aircraft so far, without losing anything to enemy warplanes. It was originally designed as a cheaper alternative to the heavier F-15.
> 
> *The two most advanced versions of the F-16 are in use by foreign air forces. The UAE has 80 "Desert Falcons" (the F-16E) which is optimized for air combat. It is a 22 ton aircraft based on the Block 52 model, but with an AESA (phased array) radar and lots of other additional goodies.
> 
> The Israeli F-16I is optimized for bombing. It's a 24 ton, two seat aircraft, and is probably the most capable F-16 model in service. It's basically a modified version of the Block 52, equipped with a more advanced radar (the APG-68X) and the ability to carry Israeli weapons like the Python 4 air-to-air missile and the Popeye 2 air-to-surface missile.* Costing $45 million each, the F-16I has an excellent navigation system, which allows it to fly on the deck (a few hundred feet from the ground), without working the pilot to death. The aircraft can do this at night or in any weather. The F-16I can carry enough fuel to hit targets 1,600 kilometers away (meaning Iran is within range). The aircraft uses the latest short and long range air-to-air missiles, as well as smart bombs. Electronic countermeasures are carried, as is a powerful computer system, which records the details of each sortie in great detail. This is a big help for training. The F-16I is basically optimized to deliver smart bombs anywhere, despite dense air defense
> 
> For the last two years, Pakistani F-16s have been heavily used in the tribal territories, along the Afghan border, dropping smart and dumb bombs, and giving the pilots experience using targeting pods. This is the first combat experience the Pakistani F-16s have received.
> Warplanes: New Night Eyes Over Pakistan





This is misleading as the current ACM has already said that all BLK 15 models will become BLK 50/52.

The article mentions it as only BLK 40.

The parts, radars, avionics for BLK 50 MLUs have already been purchased.

---------- Post added at 02:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:53 AM ----------




Mark Sien said:


> The EDA program is specific to Major non-NATO Allies (MNNA) and allows them to acquire excess equipment irrespective of aid programs. The actual equipment through EDA - whether F-16s, helicopters, ships, etc, - come for free to MNNAs. In other words, it has nothing to do with the War on Terror aid....it's literally hardware that can be transfered free of charge, just like the recent Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate PN got...



Well, Pakistan is paying 78Million per ship, so is that the cost of upgrade only?


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## MZUBAIR

majesticpankaj said:


> yes, surely you can buy. 5 bn dollars over 10 yeras, like 500mn dollars per year. yup that much you can surely afford



*Even u dont hav 500mn dollars per year defence deals with USA.*
So y ur in superiority complex......I feel ur feeling spice  n burning 

U hav just 40+ Western Jets (Mirage), all other r Russians... 
We have more then 200 westerns in the from of F-16. Mirage...ROSE upgradations n other sophisticated western weapons 

30 - 40 more F-16sBlock 52 r coming.....equal to the number of western AC's u have in ur fleet


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## Quwa

penumbra said:


> Well, Pakistan is paying 78Million per ship, so is that the cost of upgrade only?


My understanding is that the OHP is being refurbished and its ASW capabilities restored/upgraded. The actual hull was free to Pakistan, but added things such as refurbishment & upgrades would cost it money. However, it still wouldn't be as much as new-built systems and would be as capable as most contemporaries.


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## k7x

After this MLU, how much additional hours these birds get. will it last for another two dacades. Or does PAF has plans to retire them in a dacade


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## Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

Looks like we are going to get a lot of Soy Beans... again lol


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## mjnaushad

k7x said:


> After this MLU, how much additional hours these birds get. will it last for another two dacades. Or does PAF has plans to retire them in a dacade


http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...6-mlu-specifications-36-blk-52-prospects.html


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## Indian-Devil

MZUBAIR said:


> *Even u dont hav 500mn dollars per year defence deals with USA.*
> So y ur in superiority complex......I feel ur feeling spice  n burning
> 
> U hav just 40+ Western Jets (Mirage), all other r Russians...
> We have more then 200 westerns in the from of F-16. Mirage...ROSE upgradations n other sophisticated western weapons
> 
> 30 - 40 more F-16sBlock 52 r coming.....equal to the number of western AC's u have in ur fleet



Wow, what a great comparison, All western 60s or 70s Mirage, F-16western jets are better and Mig-29 and Su-30Mki sort of jets are  ??? Keep going buddy, you are acting like a entertainer here.


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## SQ8

Indian-Devil said:


> Wow, what a great comparison, All western 60s or 70s Mirage, F-16western jets are better and Mig-29 and Su-30Mki sort of jets are  ??? Keep going buddy, you are acting like a entertainer here.



People acting like a bunch of kids at a school yard.. 
My daddy's got a rolex..
Mine's got an Omega.. and it doesn't even need batteries.. 

Both fleets are currently in the process of up-gradation, India still operates a large fleet of Mig-27's and Mig-21's.. but that is about to change in the next ten years.
And while Pakistan's mirage fleet isnt new, its avionics are fairly on par with new build late 90's and early 21st century aircraft.
So while they aren't going to be showboating with pirouettes and "ballet" moves in the sky, they are quite capable of taking out a well defended target from a standoff distance or engage in BVR combat.

and considering these capabilities were acquired at 1/10th of the billion dollar deal a new jet fleet is.. its a bargain.
Now.. the western systems are needed because of their more mature striking ability compared to the Chinese systems.
At the same time the systems being acquired (F-16's) are those which the PAF is very familiar with and knows how to operate very well. 
MLU's add another 20 to 30 years of life depending on usage and other factors. Most Pakistani embargo jets were the last A models off the line and fairly new... and so have a lot of time left in them.
The F-16's that will be in service at that time will be fairly potent platforms.. and contrary to the feeble concept that most carry that they will be dueling with Sukhoi's or Migs.. their task will be to complete their missions which will probably involve interdiction and strike sorties.. which will mean punching through the Indian Air Defense Ground Environment .. something that their gadgetry will assist considerably in.
On the other hand the Sukhoi's should not all be expected to be roaming around the skies freely like rajnikanth. their mission will be to use their massive ordnance capacity and survivability to punch through Pakistani defense and create routes for strike aircraft to follow through.. stick around to ensure the job is done.. and then make sure the friendlies make it back and GET BACK itself.
Now that Ive laid out the uses of the respective scrotum.. lets not go into another vs vs.

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## owais.usmani



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## Donatello

majesticpankaj said:


> sir, they can surely buy what you have mentioned, but the quantity would be less as far as i think. the aids and loans, you cannot divert in purchasing weapons.



Part of the aid does come as Military aid.


Kerry Lugar bill is other than that.


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

AVIAN said:


> Now what is the purpose of bringing to yourself down to indian level by posting unrelated remarks. Don't you have anyother comments about the major happenings and events of this exercise.



kuchh jaL raha hay baLkay bhunn raha hay


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## SBD-3

a good video on Block 50/52


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## air marshal

*September 30, 2006: Pakistan orders new 18 F-16s.*


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## Arsalan

air marshal said:


> *September 30, 2006: Pakistan orders new 18 F-16s.*




this referes to the order from whihc we have got three.
nothing new!
the next batch was to arrive in August but not received as yet.
i wonder when will they be comming!

regards!


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## fatman17

arsalanaslam123 said:


> this referes to the order from whihc we have got three.
> nothing new!
> the next batch was to arrive in August but not received as yet.
> i wonder when will they be comming!
> 
> regards!



5 a/c delayed due to floods - no other reason or conspiracy!


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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> 5 a/c delayed due to floods - no other reason or conspiracy!



shahbaz is out of flood sir? if yes then why more late?


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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> shahbaz is out of flood sir? if yes then why more late?



soon my friend - it would be politically incorrect for the PAF to bring in 5 new a/c costing millions of $ when all around shabaz the people are suffering....

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## AVIAN

fatman17 said:


> soon my friend - it would be politically incorrect for the PAF to bring in 5 new a/c costing millions of $ when all around shabaz the people are suffering....



But it will certainly going to delay operational Training of Pilots, Ground Crew.


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> 5 a/c delayed due to floods - no other reason or conspiracy!



yeap i have heared about it, i was only wondering about the time line but as you said,,i hope it woud be soon! 

actually it will also be a bit weired to keep on asking US about the planes at this point of time with the country in worst floods of our history. although the deal had been signed and payments made but still the new will sound like
PAF get 5 latest clock 52 F-16 worth xx$
and the world will surely think what the heck is happening. on one hand we are asking for aid and on the other getting such multi million machines.
this also makes any new future deals a bit difficult and we may well see delay in all such projects!

regards!


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## Arsalan

AVIAN said:


> But it will certainly going to delay operational Training of Pilots, Ground Crew.



we have been operating earlier blocks since decades so it wont be much trouble.
moreover we have got three, they were twin seat variants so is required training will be ON!

nothing to worry about!

but cant wait to see the beasts roaring in our skies!


regards!


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## AVIAN

arsalanaslam123 said:


> we have been operating earlier blocks since decades so it wont be much trouble.
> moreover we have got three, they were twin seat variants so is required training will be ON!
> 
> nothing to worry about!
> 
> but cant wait to see the beasts roaring in our skies!
> 
> 
> regards!



It is easier said then done, because everything works on pre-determined schedule according to which every part of training must be done on a regular basis. It is just like your College or School Exam, if any delay occur, it will create a trouble as your Exams will get delays, so does you require delay your extended Studies that you have scheduled in future. Delay in the delivery of F-16 will certainly going to delay training of the next batch of Pilots, so does their conversion training.


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## SQ8

AVIAN said:


> It is easier said then done, because everything works on pre-determined schedule according to which every part of training must be done on a regular basis. It is just like your College or School Exam, if any delay occur, it will create a trouble as your Exams will get delays, so does you require delay your extended Studies that you have scheduled in future. Delay in the delivery of F-16 will certainly going to delay training of the next batch of Pilots, so does their conversion training.



Not really.. the two seaters were delivered first.. training will continue as planned..and oh yea.. in case your college and school exams get delayed it doesn't effect your board exam prep.

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## Arsalan

AVIAN said:


> It is easier said then done, because everything works on pre-determined schedule according to which every part of training must be done on a regular basis. It is just like your College or School Exam, if any delay occur, it will create a trouble as your Exams will get delays, so does you require delay your extended Studies that you have scheduled in future. Delay in the delivery of F-16 will certainly going to delay training of the next batch of Pilots, so does their conversion training.



i guess you have missed/ignored the point!



> Originally Posted by *arsalanaslam123 *
> we have been operating earlier blocks since decades so it wont be much trouble.
> *moreover we have got three, they were twin seat variants so is required training will be ON!*
> nothing to worry about!
> 
> but cant wait to see the beasts roaring in our skies!
> 
> 
> regards!


we have got three twin seat variants and these are the ones that will be used to get the pilots familiar with the new machine so nothing serious!

regards!


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## Arsalan

santro said:


> Not really.. the two seaters were delivered first.. training will continue as planned..and oh yea.. in case your college and school exams get delayed it doesn't effect your board exam prep.



exactly,,
thats the point!


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## Donatello

arsalanaslam123 said:


> yeap i have heared about it, i was only wondering about the time line but as you said,,i hope it woud be soon!
> 
> actually it will also be a bit weired to keep on asking US about the planes at this point of time with the country in worst floods of our history. although the deal had been signed and payments made but still the new will sound like
> PAF get 5 latest clock 52 F-16 worth xx$
> and the world will surely think what the heck is happening. on one hand we are asking for aid and on the other getting such multi million machines.
> this also makes any new future deals a bit difficult and we may well see delay in all such projects!
> 
> regards!




What the hell man, at least use spell checker.

Anyway, floods shouldn't impact F-16s that we are receiving. Because their contract was signed in 2005.


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## BlackenTheSky

self delete


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## DANGER-ZONE

*Islamabad (ABC Live): US in continuing its policy of Stick in One hand and Cake in another, all set to deliver the first four of 18 upgraded F-16s to Pakistan.*

*Islamabad (ABC Live):* US in continuing its policy of Stick in One hand and Cake in another, all set to deliver the first four of 18 upgraded F-16s to Pakistan.

As per information upgraded F-16s with capability to conduct night operations and use precision-guided munitions will arrive at Shahbaz airbase in Jacobabad on Saturday.

The delivery of all 18 52 F-16s ordered by Pakistan will be completed by the end of 2010.

The sources also confirmed that Pakistan is negotiating with the US to purchase another 14 new F-16s.

*Four of the 45 old F-16s are currently being upgraded and they will be ready in a couple of months.
*
ABC Live-Online News,Breaking News,World News

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## VCheng

C/Ns and USAF serials of PAF Block 52 F-16s:

*F-16C:*

10901 - JE-1 - 07-0001
10902 - JE-2 - 07-0002
10903 - JE-3 - 07-0003
10904 - JE-4 - 07-0004
10905 - JE-5 - 07-0005
10906 - JE-6 - 07-0006
10907 - JE-7 - 07-0007
10908 - JE-8 - 07-0008
10909 - JE-9 - 07-0009
10910 - JE-10 - 07-0010
10911 - JE-11 - 07-0011
10912 - JE-12 - 07-0012

*F-16D:*

10801 - JF-1 - 07-0013
10802 - JF-2 - 07-0014
10803 - JF-3 - 07-0015
10804 - JF-4 - 07-0016
10805 - JF-5 - 07-0017
10806 - JF-6 - 07-0018

The initial three (10902, 10804 and 10805) touched tdown at PAF Jacobabad (Shahbaz) on June 26. They flew from Fort Worth, Texas, on June 22 to Lajes, Azores, supported by a USAF KC-10A, with the PAF markings taped over.

The delivery of the rest is underway according to plan.


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## HAK

Hi,

I just wanted to know one thing.
On the internet when you see pictures of "test flights of pakistan's f-16's" there is a a spine like thing behind the cockpit as in the pic

 10801 Pakistan - Air Force Lockheed Martin F-16D


but when you see the videos/pics of the delivery/delivered planes it isnt there. like in the below pic

 92619 (CN: DH-7) Pakistan - Air Force Lockheed Martin F-16B 

can anyone please tell me which planes we have and what is the significance of the spine.

you might already have discussed this but searching this on the forum is difficult


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## Patriot

What you're talking about are called Conformal Tanks but they have not been installed yet because they produce more drag and hence jet maneuverability is not good so Air Chief Said we will use them for conformal fuel tanks (they extend the time jet can stay in air without refuel) specialized missions only.
Err Never mind - You posted two pictures
1)First Pic is Block52
2) Second Pic is Block 15B. (PAF F-16B block 15 #92619 is seen at Lajes Field, Azores readying to depart during delivery to Pakistan on July 26th, 2008. [Photo by Jo&#227;o Toste] )

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## krash

@ HAk:

the spine u are talking about is used to house avionics in the block 50/52+ D model (two seater). "It adds 30 cu ft (850 L) to the airframe for more avionics with only small increases in weight and drag" (wikki quote sorry ). Thus reducing the space lost due to the larger cockpit of a D (two seater) model. The C model (single seater) does not have that dorsal spine since it does not need space for a second pilot in the cockpit. We received 2 D models (two seaters) and 1 C model (single seater), all belonging to block 52+, in the first batch. The aircraft u see arriving at Shahbaz AB in the video without the dorsal spine is the C model (single seater). But the other two aircraft which arrived (not so obviously shown in the video) do have that dorsal spine.

hope that clears things....
cheers

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## Stealth_fighter

is it possible to upgrade block-52 into block-60 standard?especially the fitting of AESA RADAR?


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## Luftwaffe

stealth fighter...answer to your question.

AESA Advanced Combat Radar Ready for Production


Raytheon Company's newest advanced electronically scanned array radar has achieved a significant production readiness milestone. With the maturation of its hardware and software interfaces, the Raytheon Advanced Combat Radar is now ready for customers ordering new F-16 production aircraft.

The RACR is the latest addition to Raytheon's family of radar products, which includes the APG-79 and APG-63 now flying on U.S. Navy F/A-18E/F and U.S. Air Force F-15 aircraft, respectively. The new radar takes advantage of recent technology innovation and offers a scalable, adaptable AESA system targeted at new and retrofit F-16 aircraft, as well as other platforms.

"RACR uses hardware and software currently fielded by the Air Force and Navy," said Tom Kennedy, vice president for Raytheon's Tactical Airborne Systems mission area. "By leveraging our existing AESA technology and hot production line, we're able to offer unmatched reliability and life-cycle cost advantages."
In November 2008, the RACR successfully began integration testing in the Lockheed Martin system integration laboratory at the company's Fort Worth, Texas, facility. Additional integration efforts are planned for this year. Because the RACR F-16 interface was specifically designed to minimize impact to the aircraft, the radar can be installed with minimal changes in the existing F-16 software.


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## fatman17

*Today in History*

*6 Oct 1990 *

The US embargoes F-16 deliveries to Pakistan, and a total of 28 Pakistan F-16A/B block 15OCU aircraft are put in flyable hold storage in the Sonoran desert.
(Read more...)

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## VCheng

fatman17 said:


> *Today in History*
> 
> *6 Oct 1990 *
> 
> The US embargoes F-16 deliveries to Pakistan, and a total of 28 Pakistan F-16A/B block 15OCU aircraft are put in flyable hold storage in the Sonoran desert.
> (Read more...)



_"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."_

Having said that, things have come a long way since then, have they not?


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> _"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."_
> 
> Having said that, things have come a long way since then, have they not?



A race track is a long way.. but eventually you end up at the same place you started.

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## VCheng

santro said:


> A race track is a long way.. but eventually you end up at the same place you started.



LOL! Good one, except that some tracks are more arduous than others!


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## Stealth_fighter

Luftwaffe said:


> stealth fighter...answer to your question.
> 
> AESA Advanced Combat Radar Ready for Production
> 
> 
> Raytheon Company's newest advanced electronically scanned array radar has achieved a significant production readiness milestone. With the maturation of its hardware and software interfaces, the Raytheon Advanced Combat Radar is now ready for customers ordering new F-16 production aircraft.
> 
> The RACR is the latest addition to Raytheon's family of radar products, which includes the APG-79 and APG-63 now flying on U.S. Navy F/A-18E/F and U.S. Air Force F-15 aircraft, respectively. The new radar takes advantage of recent technology innovation and offers a scalable, adaptable AESA system targeted at new and retrofit F-16 aircraft, as well as other platforms.
> 
> "RACR uses hardware and software currently fielded by the Air Force and Navy," said Tom Kennedy, vice president for Raytheon's Tactical Airborne Systems mission area. "By leveraging our existing AESA technology and hot production line, we're able to offer unmatched reliability and life-cycle cost advantages."
> In November 2008, the RACR successfully began integration testing in the Lockheed Martin system integration laboratory at the company's Fort Worth, Texas, facility. Additional integration efforts are planned for this year. Because the RACR F-16 interface was specifically designed to minimize impact to the aircraft, the radar can be installed with minimal changes in the existing F-16 software.


Nice1 bro...


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## Arsalan

santro said:


> A race track is a long way.. but eventually you end up at the same place you started.



nicely put..

i hope we are not running round and round in a close circuit!!

regards!


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## razgriz19

GUYZ THIS IS OCTOBER!!!!
REMEMBER "TAI" SUPPOSE TO START UPGRADING OUR F-16 FROM THIS MONTH!!!!
DOES ANYONE HAVE NEW INFO ON IT!?

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## MZUBAIR

razgriz19 said:


> GUYZ THIS IS OCTOBER!!!!
> REMEMBER "TAI" SUPPOSE TO START UPGRADING OUR F-16 FROM THIS MONTH!!!!
> DOES ANYONE HAVE NEW INFO ON IT!?



I m also desperately waiting for some newz....
Even there is no newz abt new block 52 F-16's


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## VCheng

Four more Block 52s are scheduled for delivery to Shahbaz AFB in mid-October.

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## MZUBAIR

VCheng said:


> Four more Block 52s are scheduled for delivery to Shahbaz AFB in mid-October.



Means next week 4 more r coming


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## Areesh

VCheng said:


> Four more Block 52s are scheduled for delivery to Shahbaz AFB in mid-October.



Now that's a good news... Thanks.


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## razgriz19

block 52 will come this year or next, but i want some news on our current f-16s! 
when is TAI gonna start to upgrade em? did PAF already send a f-16 to TAI??
so many questions~! 
i want some answers people! xD


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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> block 52 will come this year or next, but i want some news on our current f-16s!
> when is TAI gonna start to upgrade em? did PAF already send a f-16 to TAI??
> so many questions~!
> i want some answers people! xD



the contract says the MLU will take 46 months to complete starting from October-2010 - now you do your sums - MLU is not a 'paint-job', it is a complete 'overhaul' of the a/c. AFAIK, the blk-15OCUs will go in batches of 6 to TAI, and at the same time, the PAF wants to ensure that 'replacement' a/c are available so that there is no drop-off in the peace-time prepardness.

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## razgriz19

fatman17 said:


> the contract says the MLU will take 46 months to complete starting from October-2010 - now you do your sums - MLU is not a 'paint-job', it is a complete 'overhaul' of the a/c. AFAIK, *the blk-15OCUs will go in batches of 6 to TAI, *and at the same time, the PAF wants to ensure that 'replacement' a/c are available so that there is no drop-off in the peace-time prepardness.



well thats exactly what i am asking!
did PAF send them already?(because its october already) and if not then when?


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## Stealth_fighter

here is the official TAI statement about paf f-16

http://www.tai.com.tr/prog.aspx?contentDefID=57&page=___Programs__NONE_____INTEGRATED%20AIRCRAFT%20SYSTEMS__NONE_____F-16%20PROGRAMS__NONE_____MODERNIZATION%20PROGRAMS__NONE_____PAF%20F-16%20MODERNIZATION%20PROGRAM__PROGRAM__57

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## TOPGUN

I wonder if the ones coming to us this month the new block 52's will be single seaters or twin?


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## MZUBAIR

Stealth_fighter said:


> here is the official TAI statement about paf f-16
> 
> TURKISH AEROSPACE INDUSTRIES INC.



Means all 41 F-16's will be upgraded till Oct 2014. Total will reach 41 + 4 (already upgraded) + new 18 (for so far) = ~63
Till then we wuld be having ~50 JF-17 Block II n ~ 30 J10B in our inventory


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## guidozombie

Hi, i have a question about PAF targeting pods... I've seen in youtube a video of a PAF operation against taliban, the aircrafets were using laser guided bombs, i know that t targeting pod used was french, but i am not quite sur wiche one was..

It could be an ATLIS II, but some images were infrared and ATLIS lacks any night capability... coud it be a Thales Damocles? o mayber a Mirage ROSE?


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## TaimiKhan

guidozombie said:


> Hi, i have a question about PAF targeting pods... I've seen in youtube a video of a PAF operation against taliban, the aircrafets were using laser guided bombs, i know that t targeting pod used was french, but i am not quite sur wiche one was..
> 
> It could be an ATLIS II, but some images were infrared and ATLIS lacks any night capability... coud it be a Thales Damocles? o mayber a Mirage ROSE?



Pakistan has ATLIS II as well as some Sniper XR pods were given on emergency basis to be used on the EDA provided F-16s, plus by now all the 18 ordered Sniper XR pods may have been handed over to the PAF. 

Here, read the article, PAF ordered the Sniper pods in 2006, with deliveries starting by 2008 and the pictures of the precision strikes that you saw happened after we got deliveries of the Sniper XR pod. 

http://www.f-16.net/news_article2333.html


Thus most probably, these pods were used in these strikes.


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## guidozombie

I didn't knew that PAF had Sniper pod, thanks for the info!

The footage i saw was from Swat airstrikes in 2009, by the FLIR symbology you could realize that it was french, but some images were infrared, as far as i know ATLIS II has only a daylight TV camera.. maybe it was recorded from Mirage III ROSE FLIR.. do you know if the Mirages participitad in those airstrikes?


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## TaimiKhan

guidozombie said:


> I didn't knew that PAF had Sniper pod, thanks for the info!
> 
> The footage i saw was from Swat airstrikes in 2009, by the FLIR symbology you could realize that it was french, but some images were infrared, as far as i know ATLIS II has only a daylight TV camera.. maybe it was recorded from Mirage III ROSE FLIR.. do you know if the Mirages participitad in those airstrikes?



Well Mirages have been taking part in the air strikes, but which ones were used in which campaign is hard to tell.

Plus, the video seems to be from targeting pods which can move around, the Mirage ROSE upgraded ones i believe don't have moving / stabilized targeting pod, rather they are something else. 

This most probably these are the Sniper pods or some other one may be.


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## air marshal

*Today in History - October 13, 2009: PAF accepts first F-16 from Peace Drive order.*

PAF Falcons - Today In History


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## Koga Ryu

PAF with sniper pod and ?
Aircraft 10801 (2007 Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co F-16D C/N JF-1) Photo by Zane Adams (Photo ID: AC418452)

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## SQ8

hmm.. Sniper, Winder, and Mav---G or K?


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## air marshal

*BLOCK 52 TAKES OFF*







The F-16 Block 52 taking off from USAF Air Base on its way to Pakistan.

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## air marshal

Koga Ryu said:


> PAF with sniper pod and ?
> Aircraft 10801 (2007 Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co F-16D C/N JF-1) Photo by Zane Adams (Photo ID: AC418452)


Serial#10801, with AGM-65 Maverick air-to-ground missile, AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advance Targeting pod and AIM-9M Sidewinder missile.


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## Stealth_fighter

when next blk-52 arriving?


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## Koga Ryu

PAF Arrive At Jordan. enjoy.


























__________________

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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## Myth_buster_1

air marshal said:


>



Nice... the teen baby is carryin the sniper pod.

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## mourning sage

when will the jets be arriving.????

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## TOPGUN

Wow just love these videos .... want to see them over and over again just awsome mashallah they have to be one of the best videos i ever seen of PAF


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## Stealth_fighter

so the good news is the U.S has granted 2billion dollars military aid for pakistan



U.S. Announces $2 Billion Military Aid Package to Pakistan


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i'm not sure i would call it ''aid''

but if used sensibly and with good purpose, then yes it is good


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## Manticore

Stealth_fighter said:


> so the good news is the U.S has granted 2billion dollars military aid for pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. Announces $2 Billion Military Aid Package to Pakistan



it might just cancel out the price hike of cobras/f16s


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## fatman17

ANTIBODY said:


> it might just cancel out the price hike of cobras/f16s



no F-16s under this aid package - mostly equipment for the PAA and PA for CI ops!!!

Bell 412s - already announced.
Super Cobras - 1 squadron.
Existing Cobra upgrades
C3 equipment.
probably M-105 light howitzers 
NVE
and other stuff.

....this is IMO

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## mourning sage

i would appreciate if anybody could provide some information about the arrival of the next f-16!!


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## mourning sage

Growler said:


> Nice... the teen baby is carryin the sniper pod.



what is a sniper pod??


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## Imran Khan

gohar321 said:


> what is a sniper pod??



Google is disable in Pakistan? 

bro try to type some time its better

for basic info abut sniper pods look here

Lockheed Martin Sniper XR - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

---------- Post added at 05:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:45 PM ----------




gohar321 said:


> i would appreciate if anybody could provide some information about the arrival of the next f-16!!



2 weeks or 3 maximum as i think.they delay because of floods

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## mourning sage

Imran Khan said:


> 2 weeks or 3 maximum as i think.they delay because of floods



how many will be arriving? i heard that around 8 will reach pak by the end of this year. will the delivery of all the 8 jets will be completed by this year's end?


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## Imran Khan

gohar321 said:


> how many will be arriving? i heard that around 8 will reach pak by the end of this year. will the delivery of all the 8 jets will be completed by this year's end?



5 i as i know but god know whats come out sir


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## Arsalan

there are some issues going around regarding increase in price of F-16 by US. this wont be effecting the deal of these 18 birds but we may not see any more commming after these,, Thank God !



> WASHINGTON: Federal Defence Minister Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar called on Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Admiral Mike Mullen, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff at Pentagon, Geo News reported Saturday.
> 
> Ahmed Mukhtar, on the occasion, thanked the US officials for announcing defence package for Pakistan.
> 
> Also, he raised with them the issue relating the inflated prices of F-16 aircrafts. Reacting to this, Robert Gates said he would take personal interest into the matter.
> 
> US Defence Secretary thanked Ahmed Mukhtar for hosting US soldiers who visited Pakistan to extend succor to the flood-afflicted people.
> 
> Mukhtar stressed that Pakistan Army and the people of Pakistan are jointly battling against terrorists; accordingly, their intentions should not be called in question.



initially there were rumors that PAF might go for 18 additional blkm52 F-16 after the delivery of forst batch of 18 is complete but this news will certailnly kills off this possibility. i thinks this is a blesing in disguise,
now we must focus on FC-20 and next block JFT.

we have been betrayed by USA on countless occasions and it will be really foolish to look toward the for an thing good!! 

regards!


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## BATMAN

Does this US move has roots in Indian MRCA?

I have the feeling of unexpectedly India will buy F-16!

Usual observation is Indians follow Pakistan forces in every step...... of course with a twist.


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## TOPGUN

I doubt that india will buy f-16.. as far is the news for the increase of price it will be after the deal for the 18 vipers.


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## MZUBAIR

10 more are coming

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## MZUBAIR

gohar321 said:


> i would appreciate if anybody could provide some information about the arrival of the next f-16!!



10 are coming nexty month ..
Chk the newz info from ma above post


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## MZUBAIR

10 more coming next month

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## mjnaushad

MZUBAIR said:


> 10 more coming next month


So 3 + 10 =13 blk 52 total next month...


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## fatman17

mjnaushad said:


> So 3 + 10 =13 blk 52 total next month...



3+1+10=14 by nov/dec-2010
4 in jan-2011

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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> 3+1+10=14 by nov/dec-2010
> 4 in jan-2011



Good news.. but fatman17 do we know which ones are coming c or d's?


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## farhan_9909

its good bt i hope we dnt buy any more f-16 and go for more nuumbers of j-10


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## Indian-Devil

BATMAN said:


> Does this US move has roots in Indian MRCA?
> 
> I have the feeling of unexpectedly India will buy F-16!
> 
> Usual observation is *Indians follow Pakistan forces in every step*...... of course with a twist.



I think names need to be reveresed. IAF will not be going for F-16s due to many reasons, old design, looking for a AC which need to be available for next 3 decades and same AC (different block) is operated by adversaries.


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## wali87

HAHA the Indians are not so stupid go for the f-16s. but one thing which worries me in the back of my head is that the Indians are just creating a drama on the basis MRCA tender, just for the sake of getting a closer on all of the modern fighter aircrafts in available globally to them and in the end.. the wont buy it.. and instead use the "expertise" gained from experimenting with alll those aircrafts in one way or the other towards their Indegenious fighter namely tejas and the other mrca that they are developing locally.

with indians u never know.. Baghal mein churi moo pe raam raam type.


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## owais.usmani

*2nd batch of PAF Block 52 F-16s arriving at Lajes (photographed on 27-10-2010):
*

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## Stealth

owais.usmani said:


> *2nd batch of PAF Block 52 F-16s arriving at Lajes (photographed on 27-10-2010):
> *



nice but pakistan should consider other option as well because now US is not suitable supplier of Pakistan Anymore... we should consider Rafale and other platform either in short number but atleast looking for some other supplier whenever we willl recover our economy...


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## DANGER-ZONE

owais.usmani said:


> *2nd batch of PAF Block 52 F-16s arriving at Lajes (photographed on 27-10-2010):
> *



not a single sight of C  F  T . 
PAF made us fool. they must have took something els other then CFTs, in same cost. some additional weapons or avionics. 



Stealth said:


> nice but pakistan should consider other option as well because now US is not suitable supplier of Pakistan Anymore... *we should consider Rafale* and other platform either in short number but atleast looking for some other supplier whenever we willl recover our economy...



Babu, pesa pheko tamasha dekho.....


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## DANGER-ZONE

*PAF F-16C block 52 #10903 (07-0003) during a stopover at the 158th FW Vermont ANG Burlington Vt before delivery to Pakistan on Oct 27, 2010*





*PAF F-16C block 52 #10903 (07-0003) during a stopover at the 158th FW Vermont ANG Burlington Vt before delivery to Pakistan on Oct 27, 2010*





*PAF F-16C block 52 #10904 (07-0004) during a stopover at the 158th FW Vermont ANG Burlington Vt before delivery to Pakistan on Oct 27, 2010*





*PAF F-16C block 52 #10903 (07-0003) & #10904 (07-0004) during a stopover at the 158th FW Vermont ANG Burlington Vt before delivery to Pakistan on Oct 27, 2010*

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## Luftwaffe

What's that US Air Force roundel doing on these F-16s


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## Imran Khan

Luftwaffe said:


> What's that US Air Force roundel doing on these F-16s



its must to fly in us air space until they dont handover us


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## Luftwaffe

It was not present in the first batch this is a bit confusing..


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## Imran Khan

Luftwaffe said:


> It was not present in the first batch this is a bit confusing..



removed at lejas or at the last sortie sir.same jet when its on lejas no mark look.


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## Chogy

It's necessary for warplanes in international airspace. It will obviously be removed upon arrival.

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## fatman17

^much ado about nothing!


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## IceCold

A country so hostile to you and you are doing defense deals with them. 
Never really understood the PAF mindset.

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## syed muzammil

sahi bat hai yar ap bilkul sahi bol raha ho i agree with you.  best of luck


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## GUNNER

Next batch of block-52 F-16s flying in tommorow. Number is not confirmed though.


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## Last Hope

GUNNER said:


> Next batch of block-52 F-16s flying in tommorow. Number is not confirmed though.



We are getting 5 block 52s at PAF shahbaz tomorrow...


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## air marshal

*PAF F-16D block 52 in Quetta*

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## DANGER-ZONE

air marshal said:


> *PAF F-16D block 52 in Quetta*



where the hek are CFTs

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## Stealth_fighter

i dont know why people are so fanatic about the CFT'S...Conformal fuel tanks (CFTs) are additional fuel tanks fitted closely to the profile of an aircraft which extend either the range or "time on station" of the aircraft, with little aerodynamic penalty compared to the same fuel capacity carried in external drop tanks.

Conformal fuel tanks have the disadvantage that, unlike drop tanks, they cannot be discarded when empty. This is because conformal tanks are plumbed into the aircraft, and can only be removed on the ground. Thus, when the CFTs are empty, the aircraft continues to suffer the same aerodynamic penalty, with no benefit. However, to use the Eurofighter Typhoon as an example, an aircraft with CFTs can carry a full weapons load and two 1,500 litre CFTs, whereas a Typhoon without CFTs has to sacrifice at least two weapons pylons to carry drop tanks, reducing either range or weapons load.


i think simply aerial refueling can do the job

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## DESERT FIGHTER

CFTs are here....... as far as i know PAF has bought em too... so dont worry.


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## Patriot

PAF Chief has repeatedly said CFT's are here but won't be installed unless Plane is on a special mission because they create a lot of drag and affect maneuverability of Jet.Not sure why people think of CFT as some thing important like Missile or Radar.

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## TOPGUN

Patriot said:


> PAF Chief has repeatedly said CFT's are here but won't be installed unless Plane is on a special mission because they create a lot of drag and affect maneuverability of Jet.Not sure why people think of CFT as some thing important like Missile or Radar.



Very true and agreed its really the cool look it gives the viper that many of us are crazy about and it has gotten out of control as we many of us are dieing to see our new vipers with cft's thats all nothing more


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## skybolt




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## monitor

us recently approve military aid of 2 billion doller for pakiatan . any chance for more f-16 ?


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## Luftwaffe

No After the deliveries of these F-16s the possibility of more F-16s is limited, the focus would be entirely on JFT/FC-20


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## farzansaeed07

Is there any block 60 of F-16?


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## farzansaeed07

Pakistan should now concentrate on buying F-22 raptor and Sukhoi Su 30 MKI (Russian).


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## Stealth_fighter

farzansaeed07 said:


> Is there any block 60 of F-16?


Alice in wonderland....


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## Indian-Devil

farzansaeed07 said:


> Pakistan should now concentrate on buying F-22 raptor and Sukhoi Su 30 MKI (Russian).



There is no possibility of F-22 for PAF, not even after decades. US is not willing to sell F-22 to even its closet allies, forgot abt Pakistan. Its much much costlier and requires very high maintenance. 
Su-30MKI is Su-30 varient which is customized for India only. Other varients are also very costly and on top of that Russia is not willing to sell any of them to PAF. Maximum PAF can get J-11 varients from China, if they can pay their price and later maintain such heavy air superiority ACs. 



farzansaeed07 said:


> Is there any block 60 of F-16?


I think that varient is not offered to PAF as of now. Never heard of Block 60 for PAF.


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## Imran Khan

farzansaeed07 said:


> Pakistan should now concentrate on buying F-22 raptor and Sukhoi Su 30 MKI (Russian).



sir this for you . sit here and drink cold water may be you relax

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## mjnaushad

farzansaeed07 said:


> Pakistan should now concentrate on buying F-22 raptor and Sukhoi Su 30 MKI (Russian).


If we ever bought american 5th gen its going to be f35 not F22 because its prohibited by law to sell F22. 

2nd Su30 is good plane but i don't think our relations with Russia is that good. Russia will never sell directly but only via China.

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## Taha Samad

farzansaeed07 said:


> Pakistan should now concentrate on buying F-22 raptor and Sukhoi Su 30 MKI (Russian).



sure just don't forget to send the check and call obama and putin


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## air marshal

*Second Batch of three F-16C/D block 52+ fighter aircraft arrived at PAF Base, Shahbaz (Jacobabad).*

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Wonderful Pictures but , I think our national interest does requires 50 F16 Fighters so hopefully we can excercise our options on another 20

But I am happy with stuff JF17 program and F16 Upgrading , if we can just complete the avionics for the JF17 thunder it would be great achivement


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## monitor

farzansaeed07 said:


> Pakistan should now concentrate on buying F-22 raptor and Sukhoi Su 30 MKI (Russian).



brother i think you didn't sleep well last night .take a shower and have a cup of tea and then google about f-22/su-30 .


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## Hasnain2009

Indian-Devil said:


> Su-30MKI is Su-30 varient which is customized for India only. Other varients are also very costly and on top of that Russia is not willing to sell any of them to PAF. Maximum PAF can get J-11 varients from China, if they can pay their price and later maintain such heavy air superiority ACs.



What do u mean? Do u know F-16block 52+ has almost double price as compared to twin engined heavy SU-30MKI.

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## umair86

Hasnain2009 said:


> What do u mean? Do u know F-16block 52+ has almost double price as compared to twin engined heavy SU-30MKI.



Newest order for 40 Su-30MKI costs $102M each some $20M more than F-16s we are getting and it doesn't include repair and spare parts and training initially SU-30MKI was $36.33M but that was in 1998.


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## Hasnain2009

umair86 said:


> Newest order for 40 Su-30MKI costs $102M each some $20M more than F-16s we are getting and it doesn't include repair and spare parts and training initially SU-30MKI was $36.33M but that was in 1998.



I should remind you that pakistan ordered F-16 blk 52+ before 6-9 years, and at that time the price of it was $80m+ and SU-30mki was $40mn and we also know that US gives us these F-16s at low prices.


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## Indian-Devil

Hasnain2009 said:


> I should remind you that pakistan ordered F-16 blk 52+ before 6-9 years, and at that time the price of it was $80m+ and SU-30mki was $40mn and we also know that US gives us these F-16s at low prices.



Cost of Su-30Mki was reduced once India started producing it in India with ToT. You can see the cost of Su-30Mki now when India placed order for new 40 ACs that costs around 102million dollors, although that includes life cycle cost also.
Block 52 was not $80m 6-9 yrs back as mentioned by you. Israel got F-16 Sufa arond $70m 3-4 yrs back, which is way ahead of what PAF got for block 52.


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## Hasnain2009

Indian-Devil said:


> Cost of Su-30Mki was reduced once India started producing it in India with ToT. You can see the cost of Su-30Mki now when India placed order for new 40 ACs that costs around 102million dollors, although that includes life cycle cost also.
> Block 52 was not $80m 6-9 yrs back as mentioned by you. Israel got F-16 Sufa arond $70m 3-4 yrs back, which is way ahead of what PAF got for block 52.



*Pakistan to Buy only 18 F-16s *
April 23, 2008 

Pakistan has decided to halve the number of new F-16C/D block 52 jets it's buying from the United States due to financial constraints. 

*Pakistan had earlier agreed to buy 36 of these aircraft at a total cost of $5.1 billion,* which included associated weapons, spares and upgrading of an earlier fleet purchased in the 1980s. 

*Pakistan had originally agreed to purchase 36 F-16C/D block 52 at a total cost of $3 billion & additional $650 million for associated weapons. *

The decision to reduce the order by half would also halve the cost of buying new F-16s and that of the weapons associated with them. 

However the $1.3 billion Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification of the existing F-16A/B block 15 fleet purchased back in the 1980's remains unaffected. Engine modifications and purchasing some new equipment will cost Pakistan additional $151 million. When upgraded the modified jets will be fully equipped with weapons and facilities that come with an F-16 Block 52 aircraft. 

Defence experts told that media stories saying the new F-16s will not have nuclear capabilities did not make sense. The source pointed out that when the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) received French Mirages they did not have the capability to carry nuclear weapons. However Pakistan was able to modify them to do so. 

The United States will, however, have the right to conduct frequent inspections and inventory checking. 

Pakistan&#226;&#8364;&#8482;s request for new planes and for the modification for its earlier fleet was put on hold after the October 2005 earthquake.

PAF Falcons Forums &bull; View topic - Pakistan to Buy only 18 F-16s
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


$3bn / 36 = $83.33mn per aircraft.

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## S.U.R.B.

Some cool updates on the F-16 instrument panel. Hope the old BLK-15 get these.But i'm not much optimistic.

Video
Video - Raytheon Targets F-16 with Instrument Upgrades - WSJ.com


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## TOPGUN

Hasnain2009 said:


> *Pakistan to Buy only 18 F-16s *
> April 23, 2008
> 
> Pakistan has decided to halve the number of new F-16C/D block 52 jets it's buying from the United States due to financial constraints.
> 
> *Pakistan had earlier agreed to buy 36 of these aircraft at a total cost of $5.1 billion,* which included associated weapons, spares and upgrading of an earlier fleet purchased in the 1980s.
> 
> *Pakistan had originally agreed to purchase 36 F-16C/D block 52 at a total cost of $3 billion & additional $650 million for associated weapons. *
> 
> The decision to reduce the order by half would also halve the cost of buying new F-16s and that of the weapons associated with them.
> 
> However the $1.3 billion Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification of the existing F-16A/B block 15 fleet purchased back in the 1980's remains unaffected. Engine modifications and purchasing some new equipment will cost Pakistan additional $151 million. When upgraded the modified jets will be fully equipped with weapons and facilities that come with an F-16 Block 52 aircraft.
> 
> Defence experts told that media stories saying the new F-16s will not have nuclear capabilities did not make sense. The source pointed out that when the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) received French Mirages they did not have the capability to carry nuclear weapons. However Pakistan was able to modify them to do so.
> 
> The United States will, however, have the right to conduct frequent inspections and inventory checking.
> 
> Pakistan&#226;&#8364;&#8482;s request for new planes and for the modification for its earlier fleet was put on hold after the October 2005 earthquake.
> 
> PAF Falcons Forums &bull; View topic - Pakistan to Buy only 18 F-16s
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> $3bn / 36 = $83.33mn per aircraft.



So if the source is correct... PAF won't be buying 18 more vipers in a way its good and in a way its not but as a old saying states things always happen for the best as long as we still keep to mlu for the old vipers its should be alright and we shall look towrds fc-20's and thunders


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## Whiplash

farzansaeed07 said:


> Pakistan should now concentrate on buying F-22 raptor and Sukhoi Su 30 MKI (Russian).




Do you understand the 'I' in MKI stands for India? Russia would never sell pakistan a fighter plane. Especially not the most advanced flanker!


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## DANGER-ZONE

> Originally Posted by *farzansaeed07*
> Pakistan should now concentrate on buying F-22 raptor and Sukhoi Su 30 MKI (Russian).





Whiplash said:


> Do you understand the 'I' in MKI stands for India? Russia would never sell pakistan a fighter plane. Especially not the most advanced flanker!



this is what u people do! one Indian come up with Pakistani identity at PDF and write something nonsense and set up a field for Indian trolling.

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## Hasnain2009

Whiplash said:


> Do you understand the 'I' in MKI stands for India? Russia would never sell pakistan a fighter plane. Especially not the most advanced flanker!



Is it more advanced than F-16 block 52+??

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## fatman17

Hasnain2009 said:


> *Pakistan to Buy only 18 F-16s *
> April 23, 2008
> 
> Pakistan has decided to halve the number of new F-16C/D block 52 jets it's buying from the United States due to financial constraints.
> 
> *Pakistan had earlier agreed to buy 36 of these aircraft at a total cost of $5.1 billion,* which included associated weapons, spares and upgrading of an earlier fleet purchased in the 1980s.
> 
> *Pakistan had originally agreed to purchase 36 F-16C/D block 52 at a total cost of $3 billion & additional $650 million for associated weapons. *
> 
> The decision to reduce the order by half would also halve the cost of buying new F-16s and that of the weapons associated with them.
> 
> However the $1.3 billion Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification of the existing F-16A/B block 15 fleet purchased back in the 1980's remains unaffected. Engine modifications and purchasing some new equipment will cost Pakistan additional $151 million. When upgraded the modified jets will be fully equipped with weapons and facilities that come with an F-16 Block 52 aircraft.
> 
> Defence experts told that media stories saying the new F-16s will not have nuclear capabilities did not make sense. The source pointed out that when the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) received French Mirages they did not have the capability to carry nuclear weapons. However Pakistan was able to modify them to do so.
> 
> The United States will, however, have the right to conduct frequent inspections and inventory checking.
> 
> Pakistanâs request for new planes and for the modification for its earlier fleet was put on hold after the October 2005 earthquake.
> 
> PAF Falcons Forums &bull; View topic - Pakistan to Buy only 18 F-16s
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> $3bn / 36 = $83.33mn per aircraft.



how do u come to this math? - not correct IMO


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## silent hawk

The real bargain in the block 52 deal are the AIM 120 AMRAAMs. Considering that the block 52 aircrafts were aquired to support the War Against Terror it is a credit to the Pakistani negotiators who were able to get the best AMRAAMs for their country. 

The AIM-9L missile was initially meant for the original block 15 F-16s only. However through indiginization Pakistan was able to arm Mirages and F7 PGs with this advanced weapon.

It is hence only a matter of time after which the AMRAAM through indigenous development shall be available on other platforms. Coupled with Pakistan's advanced Air Defence Ground Environvent this indigineous development once it happens would make Pakistani airspace almost impenetrable.


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## Stealth_fighter

if pak gets AIM-9X with the block-52+ it would be a grreatt addition to the PAF...BUT im not sure how it possible


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## krash

Stealth_fighter said:


> if pak gets AIM-9X with the block-52+ it would be a grreatt addition to the PAF...BUT im not sure how it possible



i believe, now im not sure but isnt the AIM-9X only for the F-22 and F-35 platforms???


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## air marshal

*ANOTHER ONE FOR THE TAIL CHOPPERS*
NOVEMBER 3, 1988 - KURRAM VALLEY 1020 HOURS

During the last stages of Afghan War, Flight Lieutenant Khalid Mahmood of No. 14 Squadron, destroys an SU-22 over Thal area near the border. The pilot of the SU-22 ejected and was taken prisoner.

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## DANGER-ZONE

*Painting titled 'Falcon's Deadly Stroke' depicts a PAF F-16 shooting down an intruding SU-22 over Thal, Pakistan, during the Afghan War. The pilot of the ill-fated Sukhoi ejected and was captured. The date was November 3rd, 1988. [Illustration by Rehan Siraj]*





*A PAF F-16(84717) of Squadron No. 14 launching a Sidewinder towards an Afghan intruder Su-22 over Thal. Aircraft destroyed and pilot ejected safely but captured and put to prison. Date of the event was November 3rd, 1988.*

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## Stealth_fighter

f-16c/d are capable of carrying AIM-9X AS FAR AS I KNOW

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## Myth_buster_1

krash said:


> i believe, now im not sure but isnt the AIM-9X only for the F-22 and F-35 platforms???



nope, all upgraded and new fighter rolling out are capable of carrying aim9x

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## Arsalan

air marshal said:


> *Second Batch of three F-16C/D block 52+ fighter aircraft arrived at PAF Base, Shahbaz (Jacobabad).*



these are the first three that were deleivered ealrier in June-July. please see below:


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## Chogy

I cannot imagine how much more you can improve on the AIM-9M. The detection system for the -X is different, has higher and faster slew rates and such, and an improved maneuverability, but consider:

The 1970's vintage AIM-9L in the Falklands had a 22 for 24 kill rate, and the 2 misses were kinematic... out of range. The retrofitted Harriers had no integration besides audio tone - no range cues at all. Pilots got eager and launched outside range.

Now we're up to the 2010 AIM-9X.

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## silent hawk

We need to acquire our assets based on the adversaries capability.

IAF shall be using AA-11 Archer and Phoenix heat seeking missiles against PAF.

PAF's arsenal of AIM 9-Ms on F-16s, PL-5Es of JF-17s and AIM 9-Ls on Mirages and F7s should be good enough to counter this threat.


----------



## air marshal



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## ANG

Raytheon wins F-16 display upgrade contract


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## razgriz19

what happened to our f-16 modernization program??????????
TAI suppose to start upgrading our f-16s from october. (1 f-16 per month) its november already and no news about modernization program...
can someone pls dig out some info on this! (NEW INFO)
i tried but i couldn't find anything...


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## fatman17

*F-16C-52M Fighting Falcon* 
D;5 
Cu;5
On Order;7 
- Note: The initial firm order for 12 examples was announced 31st December 2007 as part of the 'Peace Drive I' programme. As of mid-April 2008, an option for a further 12 examples appears to have been cancelled. The first aircraft from this batch was delivered, as expected, on 26th June 2010, with a second example following-suit a few days later. Another batch of 3 aircraft arrived in Pakistan on 30th October 2010, whilst the remainder are all scheduled to follow-suit by year's end.

*F-16D-52M Fighting Falcon* 
D;4
Cu;4
On Order;2 
- Note: Initial firm order for 6 examples announced 31st December 2007 as part of the 'Peace Drive I' programme. As of mid-April 2008, an option for a further 6 examples appears to have been cancelled. The first F-16D from this batch was officially accepted by the Pakistan AF in a cermony at Fort Worth on 13th October 2009, after performing its maiden flight on 29th September. The first two pair's of F-16Ds from this batch were delivered, as expected, on 26th June 2010, with the remainder all scheduled to follow-suit by year's end.

AFI


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## Proud to be Pakistani

The works have just started i suppose, as per the TAI website!

The modernization will be started in the last quarter of 2010 and the program will be completed within 47 months.

http://www.tai.com.tr/prog.aspx?contentDefID=57&page=___Programs__NONE_____INTEGRATED AIRCRAFT SYSTEMS__NONE_____F-16 PROGRAMS__NONE_____MODERNIZATION PROGRAMS__NONE_____PAF F-16 MODERNIZATION PROGRAM__PROGRAM__57


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## silent hawk

Sqn Ldr Zulfiqar and Sqn Ldr Afzal (GIBS) of No 9 MR Sqn destroy an intruding UAV (Searcher-II) of IAF on the night of 7th June, 2002, during Ops Sentinel. This was the first kill of a UAV by any fighter aircraft in the world.

It is very difficult to shoot UAVs because you simeltaneously have to be in the dynamic launch zone and also acquire the required infra red energy. This is the only UAV kill in the world to date and PAF achieved it with block 15 F-16s and AIM 9-L missiles.

What could India possibly do to protect its UAVs from Block 52 F-16s armed with AMRAAMS and AIM 9-Ms??

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

i tell you what , indians can only watch the wrecks coming down on ground ... i am sure they can ...


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## air marshal

*Today In History - November 09, 1983: PAF accepts first F-16 from Peace Gate II order.*

PAF Falcons - Today In History


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## Myth_buster_1

silent hawk said:


> Sqn Ldr Zulfiqar and Sqn Ldr Afzal (GIBS) of No 9 MR Sqn destroy an intruding UAV (Searcher-II) of IAF on the night of 7th June, 2002, during Ops Sentinel. This was the first kill of a UAV by any fighter aircraft in the world.
> 
> It is very difficult to shoot UAVs because you simeltaneously have to be in the dynamic launch zone and also acquire the required infra red energy. This is the only UAV kill in the world to date and PAF achieved it with block 15 F-16s and AIM 9-L missiles.
> 
> What could India possibly do to protect its UAVs from Block 52 F-16s armed with AMRAAMS and AIM 9-Ms??



Russian air force also shot down a georgian uav in 2008

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## silent hawk

Growler said:


> Russian air force also shot down a georgian uav in 2008



Russia, Georgia trade accusations over spy plane

By MIKE ECKEL 

MOSCOW (AP) &#8212; Tensions between Russia and Georgia escalated Tuesday as both sides traded accusations days after an unmanned Georgian spy plane was shot down as it flew over the breakaway Black Sea region of Abkhazia.

*Moscow denied it shot down the spy aircraft and accused Georgia of violating U.N. resolutions by using unmanned planes to spy on Abkhazia.*

Georgia claimed Russia was beginning a military buildup and moving to annex the region, which has had de-facto independence from Georgia for more than a decade.

*Georgia said video footage recorded by the plane before it was shot down Sunday shows the attacking jet was a Russian MiG-29 &#8212; an aircraft Georgia's air force commander said neither Georgia nor Abkhazia has.
*
Georgia also said radar showed the jet took off from a former Russian air base in Abkhazia and few into Russian air space after shooting down the spy plane.

*Russia's Foreign Ministry, however, said the Israeli-made Hermes pilotless plane was shot down by Abkhazian air defenses. Abkhazian officials say it was one of their L-39 jet that brought down the plane.
*
The ITAR-Tass news agency quoted an unnamed Russian air force official as saying it would absurd to use a MiG fighter jet to shoot down a spy plane: "You could shoot it down with a slingshot. Abkhazia has enough of its own anti-aircraft tools to complete that mission."

*But video footage provided by Georgia shows a jet with twin-tail construction_ something that makes MiG jets distinctive from the single-tail construction of the L-39.*

Georgia is pressing the United Nations to take up its claims of Russian military aggression in Abkhazia. The U.N. Security Council is scheduled to hold a closed-door meeting Wednesday to discuss Georgia's accusations.

Georgia's Deputy Prime Minister Giorgi Baramidze was in Britain on Tuesday for meetings with lawmakers, officials and media, seeking international repudiation of the weekend incident.

Tensions between the two countries have increased over Abkhazia and another separatist region, South Ossetia. Both have close ties to Moscow and both have been run their own affairs since the early 1990s when fighting with Georgian forces ended.

Russia has tacitly supported the regions' autonomy, granting their residents citizenship, supporting the ruble as the currency of choice and other measures. President Vladimir Putin recently ordered his government to increase cooperation with both regions and lifted trade restrictions for companies doing business there. Those moves have incensed the Georgian leadership.

Russia also is vociferously opposed to Georgia's efforts to join NATO, and has been wary of Georgia's moves to tighten ties with the United States.

Moscow on Tuesday accused Georgia of violating international law.

"The flight taken by a reconnaissance aircraft, which could also be used to direct fire, is a violation of the Moscow agreement on the cease-fire of May 14, 1994, as well as relevant U.N. Security Council resolutions," the Foreign Ministry said.

But Georgia shot back, accusing Russia of beginning an "alarming military build up in the conflict region."

"The recent steps of the Russian Federation are clearly directed toward the annexation of a part of sovereign territory of Georgia," Georgia's Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

Associated Press writers Misha Dzhindzhikhashvili in Tbilisi, Georgia and Ruslan Khasig in Sukhumi, Georgia contributed to this report.

*There is too much controversy in this incident*. Russia itself denies shooting down the UAV. Some claim that the entire incident was manufactured by Georgia to malign Russia.

*I reiterate the PAF shooting down of the Indian drone is to date the only authentic and undisputed shooting down of a drone by a fighter aircraft*

 Pakistan Zindabad


----------



## TOPGUN

silent hawk said:


> Russia, Georgia trade accusations over spy plane
> 
> By MIKE ECKEL
> 
> MOSCOW (AP)  Tensions between Russia and Georgia escalated Tuesday as both sides traded accusations days after an unmanned Georgian spy plane was shot down as it flew over the breakaway Black Sea region of Abkhazia.
> 
> *Moscow denied it shot down the spy aircraft and accused Georgia of violating U.N. resolutions by using unmanned planes to spy on Abkhazia.*
> 
> Georgia claimed Russia was beginning a military buildup and moving to annex the region, which has had de-facto independence from Georgia for more than a decade.
> 
> *Georgia said video footage recorded by the plane before it was shot down Sunday shows the attacking jet was a Russian MiG-29  an aircraft Georgia's air force commander said neither Georgia nor Abkhazia has.
> *
> Georgia also said radar showed the jet took off from a former Russian air base in Abkhazia and few into Russian air space after shooting down the spy plane.
> 
> *Russia's Foreign Ministry, however, said the Israeli-made Hermes pilotless plane was shot down by Abkhazian air defenses. Abkhazian officials say it was one of their L-39 jet that brought down the plane.
> *
> The ITAR-Tass news agency quoted an unnamed Russian air force official as saying it would absurd to use a MiG fighter jet to shoot down a spy plane: "You could shoot it down with a slingshot. Abkhazia has enough of its own anti-aircraft tools to complete that mission."
> 
> *But video footage provided by Georgia shows a jet with twin-tail construction_ something that makes MiG jets distinctive from the single-tail construction of the L-39.*
> 
> Georgia is pressing the United Nations to take up its claims of Russian military aggression in Abkhazia. The U.N. Security Council is scheduled to hold a closed-door meeting Wednesday to discuss Georgia's accusations.
> 
> Georgia's Deputy Prime Minister Giorgi Baramidze was in Britain on Tuesday for meetings with lawmakers, officials and media, seeking international repudiation of the weekend incident.
> 
> Tensions between the two countries have increased over Abkhazia and another separatist region, South Ossetia. Both have close ties to Moscow and both have been run their own affairs since the early 1990s when fighting with Georgian forces ended.
> 
> Russia has tacitly supported the regions' autonomy, granting their residents citizenship, supporting the ruble as the currency of choice and other measures. President Vladimir Putin recently ordered his government to increase cooperation with both regions and lifted trade restrictions for companies doing business there. Those moves have incensed the Georgian leadership.
> 
> Russia also is vociferously opposed to Georgia's efforts to join NATO, and has been wary of Georgia's moves to tighten ties with the United States.
> 
> Moscow on Tuesday accused Georgia of violating international law.
> 
> "The flight taken by a reconnaissance aircraft, which could also be used to direct fire, is a violation of the Moscow agreement on the cease-fire of May 14, 1994, as well as relevant U.N. Security Council resolutions," the Foreign Ministry said.
> 
> But Georgia shot back, accusing Russia of beginning an "alarming military build up in the conflict region."
> 
> "The recent steps of the Russian Federation are clearly directed toward the annexation of a part of sovereign territory of Georgia," Georgia's Foreign Ministry said in a statement.
> 
> Associated Press writers Misha Dzhindzhikhashvili in Tbilisi, Georgia and Ruslan Khasig in Sukhumi, Georgia contributed to this report.
> 
> *There is too much controversy in this incident*. Russia itself denies shooting down the UAV. Some claim that the entire incident was manufactured by Georgia to malign Russia.
> 
> *I reiterate the PAF shooting down of the Indian drone is to date the only authentic and undisputed shooting down of a drone by a fighter aircraft*
> 
> Pakistan Zindabad




What does this have to do with this section which is for f-16 discussions?

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## Trichy

silent hawk said:


> It is very difficult to shoot UAVs because you simeltaneously have to be in the dynamic launch zone and also acquire the required infra red energy. This is the only UAV kill in the world to date and PAF achieved it with block 15 F-16s and AIM 9-L missiles.
> 
> What could India possibly do to protect its UAVs from Block 52 F-16s armed with AMRAAMS and AIM 9-Ms??



Only option a MUAV/UCAV to deal this, but the,

In May 1997, an Indian Air Force Mikoyan MiG-25RB Foxbat-B reconnaissance aircraft created a furore when the pilot flew faster than Mach 2 over Pakistani territory following a reconnaissance mission into Pakistan airspace. The MiG-25 broke the sound barrier while flying at an altitude of around 65,000 feet, otherwise the mission would have remained covert, at least to the general public. The Pakistan Government considered the breaking of the sound barrier was deliberate to make the point that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) had no aircraft in its inventory which can come close to the MiG-25's cruising height (up to 74,000 feet). India denied the incident but Pakistan's Foreign Minister, Gohar Ayub Khan, believed that the Foxbat photographed strategic installations near the capital, Islamabad.

MiG-25RB Foxbat-B


MiG-25RB Foxbat-B


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## razgriz19

Trichy said:


> Only option a MUAV/UCAV to deal this, but the,
> 
> In May 1997, an Indian Air Force Mikoyan MiG-25RB Foxbat-B reconnaissance aircraft created a furore when the pilot flew faster than Mach 2 over Pakistani territory following a reconnaissance mission into Pakistan airspace. The MiG-25 broke the sound barrier while flying at an altitude of around 65,000 feet, otherwise the mission would have remained covert, at least to the general public. The Pakistan Government considered the breaking of the sound barrier was deliberate to make the point that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) had no aircraft in its inventory which can come close to the MiG-25's cruising height (up to 74,000 feet). India denied the incident but Pakistan's Foreign Minister, Gohar Ayub Khan, believed that the Foxbat photographed strategic installations near the capital, Islamabad.
> 
> MiG-25RB Foxbat-B
> 
> 
> MiG-25RB Foxbat-B



idk what point u were trying to prove their but if ur thinking that india might use mig-25 again for recon then i dont think its possible as all migs have been retired and possibly scrapped. and btw i just noticed that u bolded "AMRAAM"......... maybe u dont know but PAF DID NOT have any AMRAAM at that time! PAF just got them this year.


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## razgriz19

silent hawk said:


> Sqn Ldr Zulfiqar and Sqn Ldr Afzal (GIBS) of No 9 MR Sqn destroy an intruding UAV (Searcher-II) of IAF on the night of 7th June, 2002, during Ops Sentinel. This was the first kill of a UAV by any fighter aircraft in the world.
> 
> It is very difficult to shoot UAVs because you simeltaneously have to be in the dynamic launch zone and also acquire the required infra red energy. *This is the only UAV kill in the world to date *and PAF achieved it with block 15 F-16s and AIM 9-L missiles.
> 
> What could India possibly do to protect its UAVs from Block 52 F-16s armed with AMRAAMS and AIM 9-Ms??



sorry but i have to totally disagree with that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WORLD'S MOST ADVANCE UCAV WAS SHOT BY USAF!!!!

"a U.S. Air Force F-15E pilot was sent to destroy an out-of-control MQ-9 &#8220;Reaper&#8221; drone as it headed toward the Afghan border."

http://blogs.airspacemag.com/daily-planet/2009/09/22/robot-airplane-goes-awol-gets-shot-down/

and also this one!!! u can clearly see a missile coming at it....


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## notorious_eagle

Trichy said:


> Only option a MUAV/UCAV to deal this, but the,
> 
> In May 1997, an Indian Air Force Mikoyan MiG-25RB Foxbat-B reconnaissance aircraft created a furore when the pilot flew faster than Mach 2 over Pakistani territory following a reconnaissance mission into Pakistan airspace. The MiG-25 broke the sound barrier while flying at an altitude of around 65,000 feet, otherwise the mission would have remained covert, at least to the general public. The Pakistan Government considered the breaking of the sound barrier was deliberate to make the point that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) had no aircraft in its inventory which can come close to the MiG-25's cruising height (up to 74,000 feet). India denied the incident but Pakistan's Foreign Minister, Gohar Ayub Khan, believed that the Foxbat photographed strategic installations near the capital, Islamabad.
> 
> MiG-25RB Foxbat-B
> 
> 
> MiG-25RB Foxbat-B



This was possible back than in 1997, not possible anymore. The introduction of AMRAAMS and AIM9-M certainly changes the dynamics of Air warfare in South Asia. In 1997 PAF had AIM 7 and AIM9 L, although very potent missiles on their own and perfect to counter MIG29/M2K but were incapable of intercepting a MIG25 cruising at Mach 3 at 70 000 feet. Now all our F16 pilots have to do is cruise at Mach 2, climb around 45 to 50 thousand feet, lock the target with JHMCS and let loose the AMRAAM. Lets see the Foxbat outrun an AMRAAM, the Americans/Israelis learned it long time ago that you just need to build a faster and better missile to beat a rocket like the MIG25. Their is a reason why its not in service with IAF anymore, because just like the F104 this plane was fast but not maneuverable.


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## MastanKhan

notorious_eagle said:


> This was possible back than in 1997, not possible anymore. The introduction of AMRAAMS and AIM9-M certainly changes the dynamics of Air warfare in South Asia. In 1997 PAF had AIM 7 and AIM9 L, although very potent missiles on their own and perfect to counter MIG29/M2K but were incapable of intercepting a MIG25 cruising at Mach 3 at 70 000 feet. Now all our F16 pilots have to do is cruise at Mach 2, climb around 45 to 50 thousand feet, lock the target with JHMCS and let loose the AMRAAM. Lets see the Foxbat outrun an AMRAAM, the Americans/Israelis learned it long time ago that you just need to build a faster and better missile to beat a rocket like the MIG25. Their is a reason why its not in service with IAF anymore, because just like the F104 this plane was fast but not maneuverable.





Hi,

We had this capability in the 60's when we got a couple of planes that the u s donated us---they had a cieling of 82,000 feet---needed a space suit to fly the plane---which the pak pilots refused to wear for one reason or other---.


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## Stealth

lol





-


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## silent hawk

Trichy said:


> Only option a MUAV/UCAV to deal this, but the,
> 
> In May 1997, an Indian Air Force Mikoyan MiG-25RB Foxbat-B reconnaissance aircraft created a furore when the pilot flew faster than Mach 2 over Pakistani territory following a reconnaissance mission into Pakistan airspace. The MiG-25 broke the sound barrier while flying at an altitude of around 65,000 feet, otherwise the mission would have remained covert, at least to the general public. The Pakistan Government considered the breaking of the sound barrier was deliberate to make the point that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) had no aircraft in its inventory which can come close to the MiG-25's cruising height (up to 74,000 feet). India denied the incident but Pakistan's Foreign Minister, Gohar Ayub Khan, believed that the Foxbat photographed strategic installations near the capital, Islamabad.
> 
> MiG-25RB Foxbat-B
> 
> 
> MiG-25RB Foxbat-B



I heard that the Foxbat in 1997 intruded because the Indian mistakedly *fired an AMRAAM at a civil airliner AND IT MISSED*. As a result some very senior IAF officers were sacked. It was a mission out of frustration, no response was required hence none were generated.


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## fatman17

the U-2 was used exclusively by the americans flying out of badeber/peshawar which had a ceiling of +90K.

the RB-57 was 'loaned' to the PAF for 'recce' missions with a ceiling of +60K. the PAF used these a/c extensively in the 65 war (against the agreement with the US) and one was almost shot down as it came to around 40K. the pilot skilfully landed the a/c - it was 'repaired' to almost new after the war and handed back to the US - this is the history!


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## fatman17

*9 Nov 1983 
PAF accepts first F-16 from Peace Gate II order.*


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## mjnaushad

razgriz19 said:


> sorry but i have to totally disagree with that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> WORLD'S MOST ADVANCE UCAV WAS SHOT BY USAF!!!!
> 
> "a U.S. Air Force F-15E pilot was sent to destroy an out-of-control MQ-9 &#8220;Reaper&#8221; drone as it headed toward the Afghan border."
> 
> Robot airplane goes AWOL, gets shot down | The Daily Planet
> 
> and also this one!!! u can clearly see a missile coming at it....
> 
> YouTube - Russian MIG 29 fighter shot down UAV above Georgia


Also Surface to Air Missile Hit. 






Iraq Shot down UAV


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## silent hawk

The main point is that PAF is a very capable air force. It is also more experienced in Air to Air engagements with more than 10 kills with advanced fighters and missiles.

Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info

The PAF keeps the IAF away primarily by making the cost of success too high. It was the political infeasibility which prevented IAF from attempting Surgical Strikes after the Mumbai incident.

*The block 52s have made a very capable airforce more capable *

In the future at least I believe all fighting shall be in forums such as this

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## fatman17

*Pakistan Air Force Receives Three New F-16s from US*

Air Force News &#8212; By USGovernment on November 11, 2010 

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan: U.S. and Pakistani officials marked the latest chapter in the growth of the Pakistan Air Force with the delivery of three additional new F-16 aircraft to the Government of Pakistan from the United States during an induction ceremony today at Shahbaz Air Base near Jacobabad, Pakistan.

&#8220;These aircraft represent a significant increase in Air Force technology and capability for our strategic allies here in Pakistan,&#8221; said Brig. Gen. Michael Nagata, Deputy Commander of the Office of the Defense Representative to Pakistan. &#8220;These deliveries are the culmination of many, many years of hard work, a great deal of patience, a great deal of labor and commitment that many people have contributed to make a day like this a reality.&#8221;

U.S. and Pakistani officials attending the ceremony included Air Marshal Mohammad Hassan, PAF Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations and Army Brig. Gen. Michael Nagata, deputy commander of the Office of the Defense Representative to Pakistan.

Approximately 150 Pakistani and U.S. officials attended the event.

Hassan deemed the planes, &#8220;&#8230;a dream machine for the entire Pakistani nation.&#8221; In describing the impact that the aircraft will have, he remarked, &#8220;all these efforts&#8230;contribute directly toward maintaining peace in the region and also making our anti-terrorist efforts more meaningful and successful.&#8221;

The F-16 Block 52 represents the latest configuration of Lockheed Martin&#8217;s 4th generation multirole fighter, offering additional fuel and payload capacity, new or improved avionics and sensors, and color cockpit displays with enhanced pilot/vehicle interfaces. This is the second batch of new F-16s delivered; the first delivery of three took place June 27. Deliveries will continue with all 18 fighter aircraft arriving by January 2012.

In addition to the delivery of these new aircraft, the U.S. is working with the PAF to update 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the U.S. Foreign Military Financing security assistance program. When the updates are completed, these aircraft will have very similar capabilities to the new F-16s, to include advanced communications and a precision targeting system.

*The first batch of upgraded F-16s is scheduled to arrive in Pakistan in early 2012*.

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## DANGER-ZONE

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan Air Force Receives Three New F-16s from US*
> 
> Air Force News  By USGovernment on November 11, 2010
> 
> ISLAMABAD, Pakistan: U.S. and Pakistani officials marked the latest chapter in the growth of the Pakistan Air Force with the delivery of three additional new F-16 aircraft to the Government of Pakistan from the United States during an induction ceremony today at Shahbaz Air Base near Jacobabad, Pakistan.
> 
> These aircraft represent a significant increase in Air Force technology and capability for our strategic allies here in Pakistan, said Brig. Gen. Michael Nagata, Deputy Commander of the Office of the Defense Representative to Pakistan. These deliveries are the culmination of many, many years of hard work, a great deal of patience, a great deal of labor and commitment that many people have contributed to make a day like this a reality.
> 
> U.S. and Pakistani officials attending the ceremony included Air Marshal Mohammad Hassan, PAF Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations and Army Brig. Gen. Michael Nagata, deputy commander of the Office of the Defense Representative to Pakistan.
> 
> Approximately 150 Pakistani and U.S. officials attended the event.
> 
> Hassan deemed the planes, a dream machine for the entire Pakistani nation. In describing the impact that the aircraft will have, he remarked, all these effortscontribute directly toward maintaining peace in the region and also making our anti-terrorist efforts more meaningful and successful.
> 
> The F-16 Block 52 represents the latest configuration of Lockheed Martins 4th generation multirole fighter, offering additional fuel and payload capacity, new or improved avionics and sensors, and color cockpit displays with enhanced pilot/vehicle interfaces. This is the second batch of new F-16s delivered; the first delivery of three took place June 27. Deliveries will continue with all 18 fighter aircraft arriving by January 2012.
> 
> In addition to the delivery of these new aircraft, the U.S. is working with the PAF to update 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the U.S. Foreign Military Financing security assistance program. When the updates are completed, these aircraft will have very similar capabilities to the new F-16s, to include advanced communications and a precision targeting system.
> 
> *The first batch of upgraded F-16s is scheduled to arrive in Pakistan in early 2012*.



Oooooooh....thats gona leave a mark


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## air marshal

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan Air Force Receives Three New F-16s from US*
> 
> Air Force News  By USGovernment on November 11, 2010
> 
> ISLAMABAD, Pakistan: U.S. and Pakistani officials marked the latest chapter in the growth of the Pakistan Air Force with the delivery of three additional new F-16 aircraft to the Government of Pakistan from the United States during an induction ceremony today at Shahbaz Air Base near Jacobabad, Pakistan.
> 
> These aircraft represent a significant increase in Air Force technology and capability for our strategic allies here in Pakistan, said Brig. Gen. Michael Nagata, Deputy Commander of the Office of the Defense Representative to Pakistan. These deliveries are the culmination of many, many years of hard work, a great deal of patience, a great deal of labor and commitment that many people have contributed to make a day like this a reality.
> 
> U.S. and Pakistani officials attending the ceremony included Air Marshal Mohammad Hassan, PAF Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations and Army Brig. Gen. Michael Nagata, deputy commander of the Office of the Defense Representative to Pakistan.
> 
> Approximately 150 Pakistani and U.S. officials attended the event.
> 
> Hassan deemed the planes, a dream machine for the entire Pakistani nation. In describing the impact that the aircraft will have, he remarked, all these effortscontribute directly toward maintaining peace in the region and also making our anti-terrorist efforts more meaningful and successful.
> 
> The F-16 Block 52 represents the latest configuration of Lockheed Martins 4th generation multirole fighter, offering additional fuel and payload capacity, new or improved avionics and sensors, and color cockpit displays with enhanced pilot/vehicle interfaces. This is the second batch of new F-16s delivered; the first delivery of three took place June 27. Deliveries will continue with all 18 fighter aircraft arriving by January 2012.
> 
> In addition to the delivery of these new aircraft, the U.S. is working with the PAF to update 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the U.S. Foreign Military Financing security assistance program. When the updates are completed, these aircraft will have very similar capabilities to the new F-16s, to include advanced communications and a precision targeting system.
> 
> *The first batch of upgraded F-16s is scheduled to arrive in Pakistan in early 2012*.



*Sir, authenticity of the news is questionable?*


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## Chogy

Interesting that all of those missiles fired from MiG's have SMOKEY motor trails... easy to spot.

AIM-9M and AIM-120 are smokeless.

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## unicorn

Chogy said:


> Interesting that all of those missiles fired from MiG's have SMOKEY motor trails... easy to spot.
> 
> AIM-9M and AIM-120 are smokeless.


does smoke trail is detected by the sensors or you are talking about the naked eye.
If naked eye is the case than i assume there is no chance.


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## silent hawk

It is not just the missiles the aircraft engines of Russian Origin are smokey as well. This combined with their large size makes them easily detectable in visual ranges.


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## Chogy

unicorn said:


> does smoke trail is detected by the sensors or you are talking about the naked eye.
> If naked eye is the case than i assume there is no chance.



I'm referring to the eyeball acquisition of a launch.

At 20 miles, even a large fighter is invisible to someone with 20/20 vision, ignoring claims from Yeager-types who supposedly can see them 40 miles away. But if that same jet at 20 miles launches a smokey missile, you know you (or a flight member) are under attack. They are very visible, you can see the line of smoke suddenly appear as a dash, and growing. Further, you can use what are called auto-acquisition modes for your radar (like boresight) on the origin of the dash, and obtain a lock, if you didn't already have one.

In Vietnam, SA-2's were fired at U.S. aircraft. The smoke and launch flash helped alert the pilots, and they were able to successfully maneuver against the missile, using their eyes and a good orthoganol roll. This is a bad picture, but you can get an idea:






As for sensors that detect missile launch, my understanding is that they look for IR blooms from the motor, and don't care about smoke.

Here's an AIM-9M from a Raptor. Note the mach diamonds from the thrust, but almost no smoke:






Sorry for the hijack. Smokey missiles vs. smokeless is something that people rarely think about. On the other hand, it may not matter if a 40 G dogfight missile smokes or not, if it guides, you are in BIG trouble.

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## unicorn

Boresight is a very new acquisition and is the only counter but for even that i think the chances are sleek.I wonder why Northrop gruman are so confident on F35 boresight ability rather than its manuvering.The have not given its official rate of climb yet.


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## Chogy

unicorn said:


> Boresight is a very new acquisition and is the only counter but for even that i think the chances are sleek.I wonder why Northrop gruman are so confident on F35 boresight ability rather than its manuvering.The have not given its official rate of climb yet.



I'm not sure what you refer to. Boresight has more than one meaning. The basic definition is an axis running straight through the airplane, nose to tail. Another definition is an auto-acquisition mode for radar. You set the radar to boresight mode; on the HUD, you see a modest circle. Anything in that circle is instantly locked up. 

Off-boresight normally refers to IR missiles, and has been around for 30 years or more. Usually, it means the IR seeker is slaved to the radar line of sight, so a missile can be launched without pointing at him. Now there are helmet mounted sights that can do this.

The F-35 will have all of these, and more.

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## unicorn

Chogy said:


> I'm not sure what you refer to. Boresight has more than one meaning. The basic definition is an axis running straight through the airplane, nose to tail. Another definition is an auto-acquisition mode for radar. You set the radar to boresight mode; on the HUD, you see a modest circle. Anything in that circle is instantly locked up.
> 
> Off-boresight normally refers to IR missiles, and has been around for 30 years or more. Usually, it means the IR seeker is slaved to the radar line of sight, so a missile can be launched without pointing at him. Now there are helmet mounted sights that can do this.
> 
> The F-35 will have all of these, and more.



Yes Off-boresight has been around for 30 years,but I am pointing about the high-boresight capabilities of F35 in which sensors use combined radio frequency and infra red (SAIRST) to continually track nearby aircraft while the pilot's helmet-mounted display system (HMDS) displays and selects targets.Now this scenario
only comes into the light when there is a close combat scenario.My question here is the first deal has already been signed by israel and USA has not yet disclosed the full details of this fighter which includes its climb rate and its thrust to weight ratio.And we all know that F35 maximum speed in under mach 2.0 which raises doubts about its close engagements.
Also internally current planned weapons for integration is only up to two air-to-air missiles.Doesn't this make it vulnerable even after its sophisticated sensors,because neither this fighter has been demonstrated in combat nor the Stealth of any of the fighters of USA has been tested in any of the wars.


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## fatman17

*F-16C-52M Fighting Falcon*
The F-16C-52M Fighting Falcon is based upon the F-16C-52 Fighting Falcon



[ Air Forces ]

Ownership
The data below outlines the Air Forces that are connected with the F-16C-52M Fighting Falcon.

F-16C-52M Fighting Falcon 
D;5 
Cu;5
O;7

Pakistan Air Force 
- Note: The initial firm order for 12 examples was announced 31st December 2007 as part of the 'Peace Drive I' programme. As of mid-April 2008, an option for a further 12 examples appears to have been cancelled. The first aircraft from this batch was delivered, as expected, on 26th June 2010, with a second example following-suit a few days later. Another batch of 3 aircraft arrived in Pakistan on 30th October 2010, with the next tranche of 5 examples due to arrive on or around 20th November 2010 & the final pair scheduled to follow-suit by year's end.

- Located at 5 Squadron

AFI

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## fatman17

*F-16D-52M Fighting Falcon*
The F-16D-52M Fighting Falcon is based upon the F-16D-52 Fighting Falcon


F-16D-52M Fighting Falcon 
D;2 
Cu;2
O;4

Pakistan Air Force 
- Note: Initial firm order for 6 examples announced 31st December 2007 as part of the 'Peace Drive I' programme. As of mid-April 2008, an option for a further 6 examples appears to have been cancelled. The first F-16D from this batch was officially accepted by the Pakistan AF in a cermony at Fort Worth on 13th October 2009, after performing its maiden flight on 29th September. The first pair of F-16Ds from this batch were delivered, as expected, on 26th June 2010, with the third example due to arrive on or around 20th November 2010 & the remainder all scheduled to follow-suit by year's end.

- Located at 5 Squadron

AFI

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## mourning sage

i have some info about f-16s block 52 though its old but am not able to post the article as im unable to attach it. can somebody please guide me.
Thanks


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## Manticore

there are free media storage/sharing sites, which also provide forum posting codes-- i used *******.com/ photobucket /mediafire .... but there are many more


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## Chogy

unicorn said:


> .And we all know that F35 maximum speed in under mach 2.0 which raises doubts about its close engagements.



In my entire career, I exceeded mach 2 only twice. The vast majority of combat takes place between mach 0.8 to maybe M1.4. The inability to do mach 2+ is not that great of a hindrance when you have missiles that can do M4.0 to M6.0+

An aircraft at mach 2 has a titanic turn radius, which is entirely dependent upon airspeed. Turn rate is another thing, but it too drops dramatically when not at corner velocity, which for most fighters is between 380 to 480 knots.



> Also internally current planned weapons for integration is only up to two air-to-air missiles.Doesn't this make it vulnerable even after its sophisticated sensors,because neither this fighter has been demonstrated in combat nor the Stealth of any of the fighters of USA has been tested in any of the wars.



Extensive tests have been made pitting F-22 to expertly-flown F-15's, which greatly outnumbered the Raptors. The F-15's all died, every time. It works. Plus, the F-117 flew with impunity over Baghdad, lost one to a proverbial golden BB over the Balkans.

The F-35 is a replacement for the F-16, a multi-role fighter. In Gulf War 1, within the USAF, ALL pure air to air missions were given to the F-15. F-16's were limited to self-defense. That doesn't mean the F-16 cannot fight, it was a decision made at the time because the F-15 was simply better than the -16 in 1991. Same deal with the F-35, it'll mostly haul bombs and A2G ordnance, but that doesn't mean it cannot swing to air to air.

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## raazh

@ Chogy or any knowledgeable member!

Please confirm one more thing: Since 1st Gulf war, whats the max number of air-air kills by any pilot, of any air force, in a single sortie ?

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## MJaa

*Six More F-16 C/D Block 52+ Fighter Jets to Arrive from USA*


Pakistan Air Force will get six F-16 C/D Block 52+ fighter jets from United States today. This will bring the total number of F-16 C/D Block 52+ fighter jets with Pakistan Air Force to 12. Remaining six F-16 C/D Block 52+ will arrive in Pakistan next month. *Pakistani government have taken up the option of another 18 F-16 C/D Block 52+ which will bring the total number of F-16 C/D Block 52+ fighter jets in PAF to 36.*

These aircrafts are equipped with the AIM-120 C-5 AMRAAM beyond the visual range missiles to deal with the threats beyond the range of short range missiles. This makes F-16 C/D Block 52+ first air craft in Pakistani service that is equipped with such capability. By the end of 2010, JF-17 Thunders with SD-10A BVRAAM will join the F-16 C/D Block 52+ fighter jets to provide airdefense with long range BVRAAMs.


*Read More @ Pakistan Military Review: *Pakistan Military Review

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## Arsalan

> *Six more high tech new fighter F-16 aircrafts reached Pakistan from United States today.* With landing of six F-16 at Jacobabad airbase, the total of the aircrafts delivered to Pakistan so far reached to 12. Pakistan would get 18, F-16 C/D Block 52 aircrafts from the USA under an agreement the countries signed in 2005-2006.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> The last batch of six more aircraft is likely to be delivered to Pakistan in December this year.*



the Siz F-16 to be deliverd today have landed at Shahbaz airbase. the balance six will arruve next month completing the delivery of 18 ordered.
Initial time line suggested the deliver of 17 F-16 BLK52 to be completed by December 2010 while the last one to arraive in dcember 2011. its been negotiated and will arrive next month along with five others planned closing the deal. Congratulation to PAF and Pakistan! 

the decesion to ordered 18 more Nlk52 is still undr debat in PAF and has not been discussed with USA as yet.

regards!

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## unicorn

Chogy said:


> In my entire career, I exceeded mach 2 only twice. The vast majority of combat takes place between mach 0.8 to maybe M1.4. The inability to do mach 2+ is not that great of a hindrance when you have missiles that can do M4.0 to M6.0+
> 
> An aircraft at mach 2 has a titanic turn radius, which is entirely dependent upon airspeed. Turn rate is another thing, but it too drops dramatically when not at corner velocity, which for most fighters is between 380 to 480 knots.
> 
> 
> 
> Extensive tests have been made pitting F-22 to expertly-flown F-15's, which greatly outnumbered the Raptors. The F-15's all died, every time. It works. Plus, the F-117 flew with impunity over Baghdad, lost one to a proverbial golden BB over the Balkans.
> 
> The F-35 is a replacement for the F-16, a multi-role fighter. In Gulf War 1, within the USAF, ALL pure air to air missions were given to the F-15. F-16's were limited to self-defense. That doesn't mean the F-16 cannot fight, it was a decision made at the time because the F-15 was simply better than the -16 in 1991. Same deal with the F-35, it'll mostly haul bombs and A2G ordnance, but that doesn't mean it cannot swing to air to air.




Here is a scenario. In the &#8216;Blue&#8217; corner, we have a flight of four F-35A JSFs, each armed with four AIM-120D Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles and the 25 mm GD ATP GAU-22/A cannon. No additional weapons or fuel are carried, because these would compromise the JSFs' &#8220;low observability&#8221; to X-Band radar. In the &#8216;Red&#8217; corner, we have a flight of four Su-35S, each armed with four RVV-SD Active Radar Seeker BVR Missiles, four RVV-SD Infra-Red (IR) Seeker BVR missiles, two RVV-MD Within Visual Range (WVR) missiles, the 30mm GSh-301 cannon, KNIRTI SAP-518 jammers on the wingtips and a 6,000 litre conformal tank between the engines. Each aircraft has the full range of sensors and countermeasures. 

Here is a table to show how they compare:






yes the turn angles are larger in high speeds.but that is the only disadvantages you mentioned.what about the perpendicular climbing abilities, they cannot be achieved if your plane is moving slow.there are lots of advantages in moving fast than slow.and with such gigantic payload of f35 the f35 can very easily be out manuvered by by planes moving fast.can you give your opinion what will be the climb rate of f35?

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## unicorn

A key problem for the F-35 family of aircraft is that genuine X/S-band low observability is only achieved in a relatively narrow angular sector around the nose of the aircraft. This forces the aircraft to point it's nose at the highest threat, denying flexibility in prosecuting a missile shot, or evading multiple threats. The absence of cheek and aft radar arrays exacerbates the problem, and cannot be fixed given the weight, power and cooling problems in the basic airframe design (Diagram © 2010 Dr Carlo Kopp).

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## fatman17

*the decesion to ordered 18 more Nlk52 is still undr debat in PAF and has not been discussed with USA as yet.*

the bush admin had approved delivery of 28 F-16A/Bs which were embargoed and so far 14 a/c have been delivered and 14 a/c are due to the PAF.

since USN is not releasing these 14 a/c, the US has to 'resolve' this 'open' issue by providing 14 EDA a/c (most probably blk 40s) or agree to sell 14 new models under FMS. - this will be resolved soon.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

May be we should get these factories transferred over to Pakistan ? 

Since we will have 100 odd F16 it makes sense to open a F16 Factory in Pakistan - 

I mean we are still good with F16 for next 10 years


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## Stealth



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## Proud to be Pakistani

Dear Think Tanks!

Must have some strings attached with AN/APG-68 (V)9 radar since it is in the top notch AESA radars. Proven ranges of 280+ Kms.


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## SQ8

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> Dear Think Tanks!
> 
> Must have some strings attached with AN/APG-68 (V)9 radar since it is in the top notch AESA radars. Proven ranges of 280+ Kms.



Thinking cap on..
the APG-68 is not an ESA.. it is a mechanically steered radar.
Its range is verified and proven to be limited to 270km for accurate detection.
It is one of the best mechanically steered radars..but not an ESA.

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## Proud to be Pakistani

santro said:


> Thinking cap on..
> the APG-68 is not an ESA.. it is a mechanically steered radar.
> Its range is verified and proven to be limited to 270km for accurate detection.
> It is one of the best mechanically steered radars..but not an ESA.



My bad. You are right!



But still i thought Pakistan was pressing for AESA version APG-80. Now i remember!
AESA was with Block 60 for UAE and US refused to give the AESA to PAF. None the less with SAAB AEW platforms i donot think it will make much difference in detection ranges, can just patch through the SAAB to acquire the target.


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## Stealth

Anybuddy notice ?? these are not BLOCK 52 (few of block 52) others old one!


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## SQ8

Stealth said:


> Anybuddy notice ?? these are not BLOCK 52 (few of block 52) others old one!



Would you allow for misprints??
25 and 52.. ??


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## Indestructible

Stealth said:


> Anybuddy notice ?? these are not BLOCK 52 (few of block 52) others old one!



Was there a block 25 made for PAF??? I think not. Maybe this picture's caption has a typo. Jacobabad base stations Blk 52. (Am I right?)


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## fatman17

Indestructible said:


> Was there a block 25 made for PAF??? I think not. Maybe this picture's caption has a typo. Jacobabad base stations Blk 52. (Am I right?)



u r always right!


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## Mani2020

*Indestructible*

you are going to be dead soon


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## Indestructible

fatman17 said:


> u r always right!





Mani2020 said:


> *Indestructible*
> 
> you are going to be dead soon



 I am a perfect noob. Joined this forum to get educated about Pakistan's military and treated like this by ThinkTanks  Did I say anything bad or tried to impose my opinion?

I have a question about the Blk52. What is the primary difference between 52 and 52+. I heard a Pakistani pilot say in a video that the new F16s are Blk52+.

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## Myth_buster_1

Indestructible said:


> I am a perfect noob. Joined this forum to get educated about Pakistan's military and treated like this by ThinkTanks  Did I say anything bad or tried to impose my opinion?
> 
> I have a question about the Blk52. What is the primary difference between 52 and 52+. I heard a Pakistani pilot say in a video that the new F16s are Blk52+.



Bro you are right. That picture has a typo.
LM no longer produce block 25.

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## SQ8

Try reading through the posts..and not just the last page.. try the first..ten..and the last ten..
do a little googling.. if you know how to use the net..
And then make a post if you still have doubts..instead of asking simple questions like a 4 yr old..(goes for everybody).
And your status as a bumbling noob as you feel might change..

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## TaimiKhan

Indestructible said:


> I am a perfect noob. Joined this forum to get educated about Pakistan's military and treated like this by ThinkTanks  Did I say anything bad or tried to impose my opinion?
> 
> I have a question about the Blk52. What is the primary difference between 52 and 52+. I heard a Pakistani pilot say in a video that the new F16s are Blk52+.



PAF got the 52+ version. 

Major differences between Blk 52 and Blk 52+ are the CFT compatibility, JHMCS, 52+ has the APG-68(V9) variant radar while Blk-52 had older variants of the APG-68 radar, and in 52+ you have the square type dorsal spine in the tandem seat version, which the Blk 52 did not had. 

Above are some of the major differences between the normal Blk-52 and the Blk-52+.

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## Indestructible

Thank you for summarizing that for me.

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## SQ8

TaimiKhan said:


> PAF got the 52+ version.
> 
> Major differences between Blk 52 and Blk 52+ are the CFT compatibility, JHMCS, 52+ has the APG-68(V9) variant radar while Blk-52 had older variants of the APG-68 radar, and in 52+ you have the square type dorsal spine in the tandem seat version, which the Blk 52 did not had.
> 
> Above are some of the major differences between the normal Blk-52 and the Blk-52+.



A lil addition..
The dorsal spine is dependent upon the customer...
Since it allows for housing any extra gadgetry such as ECM,EW or extra chaff and flares..
It first appeared on the IDF's block 30D's...However.. since then..no customer ordered the dorsal spine...till the greeks.






The difference between the 52 and the 52+
"_The Block 50/52 Plus is a version which has special provisions for the adverse weather delivery of the McDonnell Douglas JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munition). The update includes an add-on tail unit containing a synthetic aperture radar, providing guidance to 1,000lbs Mk.83, 2,000lbs Mk.84 and the 2,000lbs BLU-109 warhead. Other features include passive missile warning, terrain-referenced navigation, and provisions for the 600 US gal (2,271 litre) external fuel tanks and conformal fuel tanks.

Other features of the aircraft include an on-board oxygen generating system (OBOGS), the AN/APX-113 advanced electronic interrogator/transponder IFF system, helmet-mounted cueing system (HMCS), ASPIS internal electronic countermeasures suite (full provisions)_"

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## DANGER-ZONE

santro said:


> A lil addition..
> *The dorsal spine is dependent upon the customer...
> Since it allows for housing any extra gadgetry such as ECM,EW or extra chaff and flares..*
> It first appeared on the IDF's block 30D's...However.. since then..no customer ordered the dorsal spine...till the greeks.



so no boddy exactly knows what is in there..


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## TaimiKhan

danger-zone said:


> so no boddy exactly knows what is in there..



It houses some extra avionics, plus the space taken up by the second seat causes the internal fuel capacity to be reduced, thus by adding this dorsal spine, the avionics and stuff which is normally placed at the 2nd seat area i shifted to this dorsal spine, thus the internal fuel capacity or changes are neglected.

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## araz

Proud to be Pakistani said:


> My bad. You are right!
> 
> 
> 
> But still i thought Pakistan was pressing for AESA version APG-80. Now i remember!
> AESA was with Block 60 for UAE and US refused to give the AESA to PAF. None the less with SAAB AEW platforms i donot think it will make much difference in detection ranges, can just patch through the SAAB to acquire the target.



I think the correct version of events was that US was willing to put APG80 into BL52+ but wanted pakistan to foot the cost of integration. POAF felt that at that time to avoid complexity of the issue and price hike , and take Bl52+ with APG68V9.
Just to set the record straight.
Araz

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## Arsalan

the spine do effect one of F-16 famous and much talked advantage,, the seam less bubbe canopy:


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## Myth_buster_1

danger-zone said:


> so no boddy exactly knows what is in there..



i know,...
dajjal

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## Lankan Ranger

*Pakistan Air Power || F-16 Block 50/52 Fighters ||HD||*

YouTube - Pakistan Air Force F-16 Block52+ PAF.wmv

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## DANGER-ZONE

Growler said:


> i know,...
> dajjal



i wasn't mentioning it for THE ISRAELI F-16 only


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## fatman17

*Viper Driver* 

Name Sqn.Ldr. Shazib "Falcon" Mehmood 

Country;Pakistan

Unit 11th squadron "Arrows" 
Flying F-16s from 2006 
Viper Hours 1050 


F-16 Flying Hours
1,000 Hours #2213 on the 1K list 
Unit 11th squadron "Arrows" 
Date 15 October 2010 


f-16.net

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## fatman17

cant u post it in the f-16 discussions thread - i mean whats your point!

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## DANGER-ZONE

*PAF f-16 Carrying AGM-65D model.*

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## Myth_buster_1

danger-zone said:


> *PAF f-16 Carrying AGM-65D model.*



NICE picture.. After a very long time i have seen PAF F-16 pic other then just heatseeker armaments.

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## fatman17

Growler said:


> NICE picture.. After a very long time i have seen PAF F-16 pic other then just heatseeker armaments.



the Maverick AGM has been in the inventory for a long time. all A/B/C versions have been upgraded.

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## Myth_buster_1

fatman17 said:


> the Maverick AGM has been in the inventory for a long time. all A/B/C versions have been upgraded.



Yes according to some sources PAF acquired 100 Mavericks. Have they been upgraded or given extended life?


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## SQ8

Growler said:


> Yes according to some sources PAF acquired 100 Mavericks. Have they been upgraded or given extended life?



They were serviced..
As some Mavericks started to have issues.. such as veer off course.
Three or four had electronics issues in which their seekers simply died out/

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## DANGER-ZONE

i ve heard that PAF aquired JSOW too.


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## SQ8

danger-zone said:


> i ve heard that PAF aquired JASOW too.



Nope..
The only ground attack munitions ordered are the ,EGBU's,Mk-82's,Blu-109s..and the JDAM kits for them.


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## DANGER-ZONE

santro said:


> Nope..
> The only ground attack munitions ordered are the ,EGBU's,Mk-82's,Blu-109s..and the JDAM kits for them.



AGM-65d was also not in the list. But they showed it at rollout ceremony and in above picture too. 
i ve raised that point about JSOW about last year too ? EMO-Girl and and a person labeled THINK TANK came with a source mentioning PAF opted for JSOW and they were quite convincing. 

"SORRY for that i can,t find that post for the reason"


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## SQ8

Well.. 
It would be plausible that we were interested in the JSOW..
after all.. considering the hostile ADGE near Indian targets.. it would be preferable to use stand-off weapons to keep out jets relatively safe.
But then again.. there is no more news on that..
and the JSOW is something the would not be missed by the press.. since the DSCA would have to list it.

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## Myth_buster_1

santro said:


> Nope..
> The only ground attack munitions ordered are the ,EGBU's,Mk-82's,Blu-109s..and the JDAM kits for them.



JASOW is not part of F-16 package that includes all the mentioned armaments mentioned above. I believe it was in 2005 when Bush gave Mush this gift. I think its license production because PAF did mention of successfully testing American BVR AGM.


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## SQ8

Growler said:


> JASOW is not part of F-16 package that includes all the mentioned armaments mentioned above. I believe it was in 2005 when Bush gave Mush this gift. I think its license production because PAF did mention of successfully testing American BVR AGM.



Wanna show me when that happened?
news? posts..?
I kinda missed that one..


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## Myth_buster_1

santro said:


> Wanna show me when that happened?
> news? posts..?
> I kinda missed that one..



This is not the only source...


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## SQ8

Growler said:


> This is not the only source...



Here's one
AGM-154A JSOW / Joint StandOff Weapon, JSOW-A

Got anymore??


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## humza_313

my opinion is that instead of wasting money on upgrading the older f-16s .. we should prefer on mass producing the jf-17 thunder aircraft. the f-16s acquired in 1983 can be used for the next 15-20 years.


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

---------- Post added at 05:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:49 AM ----------







---------- Post added at 05:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:50 AM ----------

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON



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## Manticore

humza_313 said:


> my opinion is that instead of wasting money on upgrading the older f-16s .. we should prefer on mass producing the jf-17 thunder aircraft. the f-16s acquired in 1983 can be used for the next 15-20 years.



the gap between iaf and paf had been widened dramatically over the past decade--

so some short term decisions alonge some long term planning was due..

there is no other way to get 70 odd blk 52+ category jets within 2 years , for which the infrastructure and experience was already in place
=
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...6-mlu-specifications-36-blk-52-prospects.html
=

jf17s dont have the payload/avionics nor range YET to beat blk 52+ in the coming years -- as no one other than chinese are willing to help

fc20 is still under developement

it is better to always have 2 types of items of same category-- one homegrown redundancy route the other western experienced route to be set as a benchmark ... we are doing it in awacs [2010] , fighters [2009-2014] and radars [2008]

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## Manticore

the codes thingy to destroy our f16 has been rebutted manyatimes by senior members like sir murad , chogy etc

secondly u.s would itself want to see how its blk52 fair against russian tech...

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## MastanKhan

humza_313 said:


> my opinion is that instead of wasting money on upgrading the older f-16s .. we should prefer on mass producing the jf-17 thunder aircraft. the f-16s acquired in 1983 can be used for the next 15-20 years.



Hi,

welcome to the board sir.

I would reccommend a little more research for you----please check out what change the upgrade bring to the F 16---.

Seemingly---it might still be superior to the FC20.

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## muse

That is to say if we can get it numbers , if the supply chain will not be restricted -- and guess what F22 is also superior to J10, you really want to put the defense of Pakistan dependent on some American lobby group?

Lets first have correct and good relations founded on mutual commercial interest - there is neither trust nor any love lost between US and Pakistan, but they can still inflict injury to each other and themselves - best to be circumspect and never again allow ourselves deeper entanglements with the two faced US policy - BTW, wikileaks diplomatic documents should provide a wealth of information to refute the notion that US is duplicitous, all are encouraged to download the data directly and read that traffic - don't let the corporate media spin this you - read the data and decide for yourself.

In the meantime, Pakistan have a super trustworthy supplier and just as importantly , a partner, in China. And God helps those who help themselves, doesn't experience suggest this?

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## Manticore

muse said:


> That is to say if we can get it numbers , if the supply chain will not be restricted -- and guess what F22 is also superior to J10, you really want to put the defense of Pakistan dependent on some American lobby group?
> 
> Lets first have correct and good relations founded on mutual commercial interest - there is neither trust nor any love lost between US and Pakistan, but they can still inflict injury to each other and themselves - best to be circumspect and never again allow ourselves deeper entanglements with the two faced US policy - BTW, wikileaks diplomatic documents should provide a wealth of information to refute the notion that US is duplicitous, all are encouraged to download the data directly and read that traffic - don't let the corporate media spin this you - read the data and decide for yourself.
> 
> In the meantime, Pakistan have a super trustworthy supplier and just as importantly , a partner, in China. And God helps those who help themselves, doesn't experience suggest this?



the complete independence from other countries dont happen with a blink of an eye-- to maintain a credible defence we dont have the luxury to wait for our homegrown products to mature to the same standard , while our defence is at risk.

most of the bad things that have befallen us are due to our own incompetance and dishonesty -- we cant throw all the mud on the u.s

i think after a long time, paf has awaken and has started on the right path-- having roughly a hundred upgraded f16s is no strategical joke-- particularly in the short term planning

our f16s have flown before aswell- thanks to the black market, uae and turkey-- this time around i think we might have greater spares at hand aswell

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## fatman17

*30 Nov 1991 
PAF accepts first F-16 from Peace Gate III order, but the aircraft are embargoed.*

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## Windjammer

Guys there is some discrepancy regarding the number of Block-52s that have been supplied to the PAF. According to the latest issue of AFM, a further nine F-16C/D Block52+ have been delivered. Three comprising F-16Cs 10903, 10904 and 10906 flew into Shahbaz on October 30.
The initial aircraft comprising F-16C 10902 plus F-16Ds 10804 and 10805 arrived on June 26. The second batch due for delivery in August were kept in the US due to the floods, while those already delivered were temporarily flown out to PAF Base Samungli, Quetta as a precaution. A further six aircraft (F-16D 10803 PLUS F-16Cs 10904, 10907, 10908, 10909 and 10910) arrived at Shahbaz on November 20. The remaining are scheduled to arrive by the year-end.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> Guys there is some discrepancy regarding the number of Block-52s that have been supplied to the PAF. According to the latest issue of AFM, a further nine F-16C/D Block52+ have been delivered. Three comprising F-16Cs 10903, 10904 and 10906 flew into Shahbaz on October 30.
> The initial aircraft comprising F-16C 10902 plus F-16Ds 10804 and 10805 arrived on June 26. The second batch due for delivery in August were kept in the US due to the floods, while those already delivered were temporarily flown out to PAF Base Samungli, Quetta as a precaution. A further six aircraft (F-16D 10803 PLUS F-16Cs 10904, 10907, 10908, 10909 and 10910) arrived at Shahbaz on November 20. The remaining are scheduled to arrive by the year-end.



this is correct - the media dosnt get 'wind' of everything all the time.

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> this is correct - the media dosnt get 'wind' of everything all the time.



It's worth noting that during the floods, those stationed in Jacobabad were actually flown out to Samungli and not Shamsi as was the general deception.!!!!!

So much for the US leverage.

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## Pak123

^^
so what will be the total number of F-16's by the year end ?


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## fatman17

Pak123 said:


> ^^
> so what will be the total number of F-16's by the year end ?



45+18=63 birds=3 Sqdns with 14 a/c still to be delivered.


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## Pak123

fatman17 said:


> 45+18=63 birds=3 Sqdns with 14 a/c still to be delivered.



so in total we will be having 77 F-16's ?


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## farhan_9909

33 squardens nt enough we need atleast 6-7 squardens


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## DANGER-ZONE

*F-16C block 52 #10901, returns to base after a test flight.*

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## Mani2020

danger-zone said:


> *F-16C block 52 #10901, returns to base after a test flight.*





beautiful pic man.apart from most successful aircraft in the history of aviation ,it is also the most beautiful and handsome aircraft ever build in the history of aviation .although first built in80's but still after 30 years its looks still better than most of the aircrafts recently deployed by airforces

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## fatman17

Pak123 said:


> so in total we will be having 77 F-16's ?



the original tgt was 100 and i believe the PAF is still 'persuing' this objective!

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## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...6-mlu-specifications-36-blk-52-prospects.html

ive updated your above comment here ,sir!

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## fatman17

*9th squadron (PAF)*

"Griffins" 

Status: Active 

Version: F-16A/B block 15 MLU 
Role: Multirole, Training 
Tailband: N/A 
Motto: How high you fly depends on how brave you are. 
Badge: A standing Red Griffin. 

_F-16 History_

The 9th squadron was the second within the PAF to be equipped with the F-16. The first aircraft arrived in the course of 1984. With the introduction of the F-16, the squadron was moved from Masroor AB to Sarghoda AB to form the 38th Wing there. This move was meant to reinforce the units at Sarghoda AB which is situated closer to the Afghan border then Masroor AB, which lays on the southern coastline.

Immediately with its introduction, the F-16 was the premier front-line fighter of the Pakistani Air Force. This meant that the F-16 was sent out to patrol Pakistans borders. With the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan in 1979, a lot of turmoil existed in the Pakistani-Afghan border region. Russian and Afghan aircraft regularly crossed the border with Pakistan. F-16s were sent to counter these intrusions. 

This tense situation existed until the Soviet withdrawal in 1989. In that period, 9th squadron was credited with three air kills against Soviet and Afghan aircraft. The first interception occurred on May 17th, 1986 when Squadron Leader Mohammed Yousaf shot down two Su-22 fighters near Parachinar. The second interception occurred on March 30th, 1987 when an An-26 fell victim to Squadron Leader Sikander Hayat near Miranshah.

Already worked up as an air defence asset, the Pakistani Air Force wanted to expand the possibilities of the F-16 and also use it in the ground attack role. Therefore it installed the Thompson-CSF ALTIS II laser designation pod on its F-16s from 1987 onwards. Pakistan was the first country to introduce this pod on its F-16 which makes it possible to accurately deliver laser guided bombs as the GBU-10/12.

With the decision to upgrade the existing F-16s to MLU standards in the near future, the possibilities of the PAF to put the F-16 into operation will expand drastically.

The PAF F-16s were pooled at this time and no unit marking were present on the tail. Only a Pakistani flag adorned it in the center with the serial number on the tail base. The flag also existed in a full color format.

The Pakistani flag and serial number remained. A squadron logo was added below the flag with the squadrons name added on top of the tail.

Unit History

1943: Activation of the squadron in Risalpur (Indian squadron) 
1943: &#8216;Hurricane&#8217; IIC 
1944: &#8216;Spitfire&#8217; VIII 
1947: Re-activation of the squadron in Peshawar (as Pakistani squadron) 
1947: &#8216;Tempest&#8217; Mk. II 
1950: 'Fury' FB60 
1956: 'Fury' FB60 (Kohat AB) 
1961: F-104A &#8216;Starfighter&#8217; 
1973: Mirage VPA (Rafiqui AB) 
1981: Mirage VPA (Masroor AB) 
1984: F-16A/B &#8216;Fighting Falcon&#8217; (Sarghoda AB) 
2007: F-16AM/BM 'Fighting Falcon 

f-16.net

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## xuwei

May I ask what's the f16A/B's MLU program of PAF?(The time start and end,and the number of Each time)
Besides 34 f16A/B inventory,will PAF buy how many secondhand F16MLU?
Thanks!


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## DESERT FIGHTER

xuwei said:


> May I ask what's the f16A/B's MLU program of PAF?(The time start and end,and the number of Each time)
> Besides 34 f16A/B inventory,will PAF buy how many secondhand F16MLU?
> Thanks!



MLU will be equal to blk 52 status.

We have 45 MLUs and 18 BLK-52s,18(blk-52) more in negotiation and more embargoes jets might be released....... also PAFs total fleet will consist of 100+ F-16s mix of MLUs and new blk-52s.

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## Arsalan

> *Six F-16 fighter planes arrive in Pakistan from U.S. *
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD, (Xinhua) -- Six more F-16 fighter planes arrived in Pakistan from the United States on Saturday, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) said.
> 
> Pakistan had signed a contract with the U.S. administration in 2005-06 for the acquisition of 18 F-16 C/D Block 52 aircrafts, the PAF said.
> 
> The PAF said that, under the arrangement, PAF would receive these aircraft from the U.S. government in staggered batches.
> 
> The first batch of three fighters were handed over to Pakistan in May 2010. In October the second batch of three fighter aircrafts arrived in Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The third group of six aircrafts were delivered on Saturday at the PAF Base, Shahbaz in Jacobabad in southern Sindh province, the PAF said.
> 
> *The last batch of another six aircrafts is expected to be delivered to Pakistan in December 2010.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The F-16 C/D Block 52 aircraft is a high tech fighter aircraft equipped with state-of-the-art avionics suite and latest weapons with Night Precision Attack capability, the PAF said.
> 
> These aircraft are part of the bid by PAF to modernize and enhance its air defence capabilities.
> 
> Pakistan receives the fighter jets after the U.S. government proposed shifting 230 million U.S. dollars from its counter-terrorism aid package to Pakistan to help the country upgrade its aging F-16 fighter jets.


 
keep a llok out for this guys..

the birds will be flying home soon!!!
i hopr this time around they come with the CFT on for a signature shot:






i wish to see the MLU and STAR upgrades to proceed NOW, this really will take PAF to a new level!

regards!

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## Kompromat

Why no CFT's anyone ?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Black Blood said:


> Why no CFT's anyone ?



Someone does not want us to fly far away on long DISTANCE missions wink wink say ... some where north of Middle east


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## Mani2020

we have block 52+ which come along with CFT's ,even the ACM said that we will get CFT's 

now where are CFT's nobody knows may be they are come on cargo planes along with other equipment thats why nobody is picking them up


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## BATMAN

Kill Switches on F-16s

12/5/2010
Meinhaj Hussain, m.hussain@grandestrategy.com

This article is part of a series on articles covering the JF-17 and the PAF through reviewing posts from Pakdef, a premier Pakistani defense forum. The main page for this series is available here.

The discussion about kill switches existing or not in Pakistani F-16s is a critical issue since Pakistan cannot afford to find its planes of no worth in case of war. Further, another issue is whether in such a mode these F-16s may be able to infect other data linked platforms. We have only recently observed how the Stuxnet virus infected the Iranian reactors. We also observed how Syrian radars could not observe the Israeli planes that attacked Syria&#8217;s supposed nuclear facilities. There have been concerns raised that this may have been a form of new EW systems that are closer to computer viruses in that they exploit the software of the radars. 

Pakistan&#8217;s C4I could be compromised if these F-16s or other US equipment are found to be Trojan horses or less identifiably, entry points for such attacks. 

We open the discussion with Brother Shamim&#8217;s analysis that the discussion of kill switches in Pakistani F-16s may be one that is politically motivated. The purpose behind this is described as American attempts to sell their weapons, particularly combat jets, to India. 

Brother Shamim notes that the Pentagon&#8217;s &#8220;Non Lethal Weapons Directorate&#8221; has only recently begun sending RFPs for such technologies. The proposed technology would allow aircraft to be safely diverted or prevented from taking off. The respected Pakdef member confirms his analysis through a conversation with a former Lockheed Martin colleague. This reviewer notes that such RFPs are mainly targeted for general purposes. Public and open RFPs are needed to make this technology acceptable for FAA purposes. Embedding such technologies in foreign military sales would not be related to such RFPs, but rather be black projects unknown to the public and not shareable with individuals considered attached to foreign militaries. 

Brother Munir&#8217;s analysis looks to evidence of tampering with aircraft sold by the United States to foreign countries. He notes that even a close ally such is Australia, has had issues with technical limitations programmed into them. Brother Munir notes that Australia has had a problem with BVR weapons capabilities. He comments that Australia overcame their limitations by hacking into the system, an issue on which they do no see eye-to-eye with their American counterparts on. 

Brother Munir also gives the example of Malaysia&#8217;s F/A-18s and notes issues with accuracy [perhaps discussing targeting systems]. This author also notes that Malaysian F/A-18 pilots found, to their surprise, that they cannot designate way-points on Singapore. Malaysia is unlikely to be a customer of US military aircraft. 

Another point raised is that Indonesian Su-27s had mysterious glitches that would suddenly indicate that the planes were under attack. Brother Munir doubts that this was merely a software error. He also notes that it is not possible to go through everything as such planes are extremely complex machines with million of lines of codes. A thorough review would be expensive, time consuming and by and large, beyond the reach of a customer. 

Brother Munir also talks about how a Chinese purchase of a Boeing aircraft was bugged by the CIA. He asks us to ponder upon why the JSF has only black boxes that need to be returned to the USA with everything produced and maintained by US companies. Essentially, he is telling us that the Americans can best be understood in a Machiavellian light. They cannot be trusted and cannot be relied upon in any way. 

Brother Munir believes that the F-16 can be compromised using its satellite receiver. This is located on the spine of the aircraft. Any party that controls the GPS transmission can scramble anything it wants into the aircraft&#8217;s receiver. This can simple be a passive activation of a hidden trigger. He notes that this has implications not only for the aircraft, but also for the air force. He gives the example of Israel&#8217;s attack on the Syrian supposed nuclear site. Brother Munir wonders allowed what could happen if the Indians receive such EW devices which could not only impact the F-16s, but could impact the entire C4I through these Trojan horses. 

The respected Pakdef member notes that such details and information is not likely to be confirmed or rejected in a manner than can be considered reliable because of the conflict of interest. He notes that such kill switches, judging by past US policy, is in their interest. 

References:

JF-17 related discussion: Jan - Dec 2010
JF-17 related discussion: Jan - Dec 2010
JF-17 related discussion: Jan - Dec 2010
JF-17 related discussion: Jan - Dec 2010

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## Mani2020

BATMAN said:


> Kill Switches on F-16s
> 
> 12/5/2010
> Meinhaj Hussain, m.hussain@grandestrategy.com
> 
> This article is part of a series on articles covering the JF-17 and the PAF through reviewing posts from Pakdef, a premier Pakistani defense forum. The main page for this series is available here.
> 
> The discussion about kill switches existing or not in Pakistani F-16s is a critical issue since Pakistan cannot afford to find its planes of no worth in case of war. Further, another issue is whether in such a mode these F-16s may be able to infect other data linked platforms. We have only recently observed how the Stuxnet virus infected the Iranian reactors. We also observed how Syrian radars could not observe the Israeli planes that attacked Syria&#8217;s supposed nuclear facilities. There have been concerns raised that this may have been a form of new EW systems that are closer to computer viruses in that they exploit the software of the radars.
> 
> Pakistan&#8217;s C4I could be compromised if these F-16s or other US equipment are found to be Trojan horses or less identifiably, entry points for such attacks.
> 
> We open the discussion with Brother Shamim&#8217;s analysis that the discussion of kill switches in Pakistani F-16s may be one that is politically motivated. The purpose behind this is described as American attempts to sell their weapons, particularly combat jets, to India.
> 
> Brother Shamim notes that the Pentagon&#8217;s &#8220;Non Lethal Weapons Directorate&#8221; has only recently begun sending RFPs for such technologies. The proposed technology would allow aircraft to be safely diverted or prevented from taking off. The respected Pakdef member confirms his analysis through a conversation with a former Lockheed Martin colleague. This reviewer notes that such RFPs are mainly targeted for general purposes. Public and open RFPs are needed to make this technology acceptable for FAA purposes. Embedding such technologies in foreign military sales would not be related to such RFPs, but rather be black projects unknown to the public and not shareable with individuals considered attached to foreign militaries.
> 
> Brother Munir&#8217;s analysis looks to evidence of tampering with aircraft sold by the United States to foreign countries. He notes that even a close ally such is Australia, has had issues with technical limitations programmed into them. Brother Munir notes that Australia has had a problem with BVR weapons capabilities. He comments that Australia overcame their limitations by hacking into the system, an issue on which they do no see eye-to-eye with their American counterparts on.
> 
> Brother Munir also gives the example of Malaysia&#8217;s F/A-18s and notes issues with accuracy [perhaps discussing targeting systems]. This author also notes that Malaysian F/A-18 pilots found, to their surprise, that they cannot designate way-points on Singapore. Malaysia is unlikely to be a customer of US military aircraft.
> 
> Another point raised is that Indonesian Su-27s had mysterious glitches that would suddenly indicate that the planes were under attack. Brother Munir doubts that this was merely a software error. He also notes that it is not possible to go through everything as such planes are extremely complex machines with million of lines of codes. A thorough review would be expensive, time consuming and by and large, beyond the reach of a customer.
> 
> Brother Munir also talks about how a Chinese purchase of a Boeing aircraft was bugged by the CIA. He asks us to ponder upon why the JSF has only black boxes that need to be returned to the USA with everything produced and maintained by US companies. Essentially, he is telling us that the Americans can best be understood in a Machiavellian light. They cannot be trusted and cannot be relied upon in any way.
> 
> Brother Munir believes that the F-16 can be compromised using its satellite receiver. This is located on the spine of the aircraft. Any party that controls the GPS transmission can scramble anything it wants into the aircraft&#8217;s receiver. This can simple be a passive activation of a hidden trigger. He notes that this has implications not only for the aircraft, but also for the air force. He gives the example of Israel&#8217;s attack on the Syrian supposed nuclear site. Brother Munir wonders allowed what could happen if the Indians receive such EW devices which could not only impact the F-16s, but could impact the entire C4I through these Trojan horses.
> 
> The respected Pakdef member notes that such details and information is not likely to be confirmed or rejected in a manner than can be considered reliable because of the conflict of interest. He notes that such kill switches, judging by past US policy, is in their interest.
> 
> References:
> 
> JF-17 related discussion: Jan - Dec 2010
> JF-17 related discussion: Jan - Dec 2010
> JF-17 related discussion: Jan - Dec 2010
> JF-17 related discussion: Jan - Dec 2010



I always brought up that issue many times in this forum specially after seeing the past record of US but many senior members (i don't want to take their names as they might feel offended) rejected it simply by saying that i m bringing in childish stuff,and it can't happen in reality but i believe everything is possible keeping in mind US track record and the type of tech they have

By the way it will be eye-opener for those members who denied my effort because these words are directly coming out from none other than Paf associates

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## SQ8

Doubt the above for a specific reason..
To scramble GPS.. you would have to know the frequencies on which it operates..
the Encryption..etc...and a whole bunch of classified details.
While the Americans may be able to do so if they wished to attack US.. they would never hand it over to the Indians.. 
Specifically to avoid any possible contingency that may arise with India..however unlikely it seems. 
It is possible to give the tech to Israel..but that is that.
Also..
Even if they manage to scramble the GPS..
They leave the other systems operational...
To scramble a jet via this method..they would have to transmit a signal on the GPS carrier wave..that when received triggers a trojan.
seems unlikely..
What they may do.. is down grade the accuracy of the JDAM's being given to us...and they have already refused DRFM..
That is that..


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## DANGER-ZONE

*46th TS F-16B from Eglin Test wing in the static at Oceana, this jet has now been delivered to the Pakistan Airforce*





*Delivered to Pakistan as 92-614*

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## silent hawk

fatman17 said:


> the original tgt was 100 and i believe the PAF is still 'persuing' this objective!



Sir, This is a necessity. India after upgradation of it's fleet is likely to have about 300 High tech fighters comprising SU 30s and Mig 29s. At least 100 Hi tech fighters are required at the pakistani side to meet the conventional defenders ratio of 1:3


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## Areesh

danger-zone said:


> *46th TS F-16B from Eglin Test wing in the static at Oceana, this jet has now been delivered to the Pakistan Airforce*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Delivered to Pakistan as 92-614*



So it's 46F-16 A/B's + 12 F-16 Block 52's=58 F-16's

Am I right?


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## farhan_9909

Areesh said:


> So it's 46F-16 A/B's + 12 F-16 Block 52's=58 F-16's
> 
> Am I right?



6 more we will gt in this month..so total 64 and 14 more

means 78 at all..


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## Mani2020

danger-zone said:


> *46th TS F-16B from Eglin Test wing in the static at Oceana, this jet has now been delivered to the Pakistan Airforce*
> 
> 
> *Delivered to Pakistan as 92-614*



these are in addition to the 46 f-16 a/b currently operated by PAF? when they were delivered? Can you provide us with some detail


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## SMC

farhan_9909 said:


> 6 more we will gt in this month..so total 64 and 14 more
> 
> means 78 at all..



Why did we get an additional F-16 Block 15? Am I missing something or we're suppose to get 14 more embargoed F-16 Block 15s and this one that just came was part of the embargoed ones?


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## PAFAce

Mani2020 said:


> I always brought up that issue many times in this forum specially after seeing the past record of US but many senior members (i don't want to take their names as they might feel offended) rejected it simply by saying that i m bringing in childish stuff,and it can't happen in reality but i believe everything is possible keeping in mind US track record and the type of tech they have
> 
> By the way it will be eye-opener for those members who denied my effort because these words are directly coming out from none other than Paf associates


Consider this:

Can you imagine the international response if kill-switches were ever activated on American equipment sold to "allies" such as Pakistan and Australia?

The Defence industry is the United States' largest domestic industry and generates the most amount of revenue. The US is also the largest international arms exporter, worth up to $7-8 Billion every year. It is, in addition to their space program, the only thing that sets them apart in the world anymore. As it is, they have been losing ground to the Russians, Chinese, Europeans and Israelis in this sector of late. If kill-switches are ever activated post-sale, it would be disastrous for their foreign defence sales. You think world-peace is worth their arms industry to the US? That's right.

Anyway, the PAF would likely take precautions if these possibilities were real. We can hack too, you know.

Therefore, technically, yes its possible. I've always said that. However, realistically speaking, this would never happen.

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## BATMAN

PAF Ace, don't take 'kill switches' in literary terms.
It could be limitation in operation while our adversary have CM from US.
It could be GPS based tracking chip, some thing like which guide US drones.

US need not to integrate so called 'kill switches' in equipment of rest of the world.
US knows it can over power other nations without kill switches, but in case for PAF they knows the potential.
we all and PAF experts can only think up to the tech. known to the world.

US have no love for Pakistan army....and they will try every trick in their books to make our army handicap before opening any front....and they have already tried all possible tricks.

Every one who has been reading news papers from last 5 years know that Pakistan's regime change was triggered by collective Indo-west.. while India, US and UK played key role.

While US have time and again stated these F-16 are not for use against India and when the time comes and it didn't work.... who stands corrected?
Mind it India does not necessarily need to secure their goals through frond doors, India has many sympathizers and cross marriages in west.


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## fatman17

SMC said:


> Why did we get an additional F-16 Block 15? Am I missing something or we're suppose to get 14 more embargoed F-16 Block 15s and this one that just came was part of the embargoed ones?



they will be MLU'ed - we have 11 extra kits available - so 3 additional kits will be purchased.


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## fatman17

silent hawk said:


> Sir, This is a necessity. India after upgradation of it's fleet is likely to have about 300 High tech fighters comprising SU 30s and Mig 29s. At least 100 Hi tech fighters are required at the pakistani side to meet the conventional defenders ratio of 1:3



dont forget the 40 FC-20's


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## silent hawk

Technically kill switches can very much be present.

Physically there is no means of confirming that they exist or not. Considering worst case scenarios we must assume that these switches exist.

In such a case if India launches an attack our systems may be active. However if we launch an attack our systems shall surely be switched off. Consider 2008 when US requested Pakistan to allow one surgical strike a request that was turned down. This time the US will simply operate the kill switches. US equipment restores balance only if the US wants the balance to be restored.

That is why the 40 FC-20s are so important.


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## Luftwaffe

"kill switch" might if present would work in gulf/arab scenario for those nations. When it comes to Pak-india I am doubting kill switch since US wants its systems to be proven yet again against russian/french technologies. They indeed want to see Made in USA perform best against the opponents. It is foolish to think US would want such system embedded to embarrass Pakistan to lose, such moves are dangerous from the point of preemptive nuclear strike as well that cannot be ruledout.


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## silent hawk

The aim of the kill switch is to ensure that the delivered system is used as per the agreements.

If we intend to stay within the agreed limits than I am sure the Kill Switches are not going to be a problem.


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## Luftwaffe

*The aim of the kill switch is to ensure that the delivered system is used as per the agreements.
If we intend to stay within the agreed limits than I am sure the Kill Switches are not going to be a problem.*

As Per Agreement, Is there any secret agreement between Pakistan/US not to use it across the border. (As long as there is no confirmation of it then the so called agreement is not in place)

Within limits, that would be over Pakistan airspace only, that doesn't sound realistic. If kill switch is to safeguard indian interests then even Pakistan airspace is restricted for the use of AMRAAMs therefore I'm not buying kill switch theory.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Luftwaffe said:


> "kill switch" might if present would work in gulf/arab scenario for those nations. When it comes to Pak-india I am doubting kill switch since US wants its systems to be proven yet again against russian/french technologies. They indeed want to see Made in USA perform best against the opponents. It is foolish to think US would want such system embedded to embarrass Pakistan to lose, such moves are dangerous from the point of preemptive nuclear strike as well that cannot be ruledout.



aren't we talking about future, where we r expecting 126 f-18 E/F on 18 f-16 C/D. while India Paying Billions to USA for various weapon range and we r begging for a minimum quantity. where USA calls India a strategic partner and we are still on talks, as we call it "strategic negotiation". plus we are the terrorists and they are the democratic country. our soldiers die for aid money and their military gave billion dollars for weapon supply.
it wont hurt USA loosing a poor country with a bunch of their bird in inventory. they can bury every thing saying "PAF PILOTS WERE NOT THE WORLD CLASS FIGHTERS" in the end.

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## Luftwaffe

It might not hurt americans but neither you nor I'm in the hierarchy of the Armed Forced what sort of impact and decision could be made if such so called "kill switch" comes into effect. 

Lastly if there is no proof of kill switch lets move on and do something better. Pakistan is the world's No 6/7 largest arm importer of the biggest suppliers are US and China. Does it make sense US losing a customer over all, I don't think so Pakistan would in years to come detach it self from world class manufacture of Systems/Arms/Weapons.

People here are posting numerous posts to support kill switch theory with 0 content of reality or absolute truth. Support it with Proof.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Luftwaffe said:


> It might not hurt americans but neither you nor I'm in the hierarchy of the Armed Forced what sort of impact and decision could be made if such so called "kill switch" comes into effect.
> 
> Lastly if there is no proof of kill switch lets move on and do something better. Pakistan is the world's No 6/7 largest arm importer of the biggest suppliers are US and China. Does it make sense US losing a customer over all, I don't think so Pakistan would in years to come detach it self from world class manufacture of Systems/Arms/Weapons.
> 
> People here are posting numerous posts to support kill switch theory with 0 content of reality or absolute truth.



well the matter of fact is, our engineers are not that dump at all. don't they get user manual with new machines 
how could they make a bird like Thunder without operating F-16

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## Luftwaffe

I was looking for resurrected Pakistani dittocopy of F solah.

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## Syed TALHA SHAH




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## silent hawk

Luftwaffe said:


> It might not hurt americans but neither you nor I'm in the hierarchy of the Armed Forced what sort of impact and decision could be made if such so called "kill switch" comes into effect.
> 
> Lastly if there is no proof of kill switch lets move on and do something better. Pakistan is the world's No 6/7 largest arm importer of the biggest suppliers are US and China. Does it make sense US losing a customer over all, I don't think so Pakistan would in years to come detach it self from world class manufacture of Systems/Arms/Weapons.
> 
> People here are posting numerous posts to support kill switch theory with 0 content of reality or absolute truth. Support it with Proof.



With all due respect sir if someone were to post concrete proof of kill switch on this forum he would probably disapear overnight. His relatives would be asking the Chief Justice to search for him like other missing people.


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## abaseen99



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## fatman17

*Pakistan-Turkey to undertake joint defence production* 

ISLAMABAD, Dec 7 (APP): Pakistan and Turkey agreed to further enhance bilateral cooperation in various fields particularly in the area of defence.Both the brotherly countries highlighted the need for undertaking Joint Defence Productions benefitting the two brotherly nations in terms of improving and strengthening their defence capability.A unanimous agreement focussing the joint defence productions was reached at a meeting held between Minister for Defence Ch. Ahmad Mukhtar and his Turkish counterpart Vecdi Gonul, in Ankara on Tuesday, says a fax message received from Ankara.

The meeting reviewed the ongoing projects in the defence sector that includes the overhauling of F-16 aircraft. It was agreed to strengthen the existing high level cooperation forum that provides a better platform for improving our relations in various fields. 

The minister also thanked his Turkish counterpart for providing assistance for the rehabilitation of flood victims of Pakistan


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## abaseen99

f 16 at jakab abad air base

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## Manticore

Cockpit layouts from different F-16 versions

Documents, plans and diagrams from the F-16

http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item46357.html

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## abaseen99



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## Stealth_fighter

i think PAF guys are not fool...if kill switch was a major issue then they wouldn't go for the blk-52..and i think PAF engineers ain't dumb too...

this is just my thinking..not every1 have to believe on this


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## Indestructible

According to software point of view, a kill switch cannot just turn of the systems of an aircraft when airborne. It could cause a crash. Rebooting isn't easy in air. One more thing to consider is that all systems are tested prior to take off and ammunitions updated in the aircraft's digital inventory. If a F-16 is to fly with 2 AMRAAMs then the inventory would be updated accordingly. There is no question of jamming of missiles when the pilot tries to fire on a locked target. Though it is possible for a transmitting device in range of the aircraft that is specially built to target systems on a F-16 to jam the inventory and its functionality. IMO we need not to worry about the kill switches. There aren't any.


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## owais.usmani



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## Shahzad Sultan

Ultimate killing Machine


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## Myth_buster_1

owais.usmani said:


>



Are they coming back from red/green flag?

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## Indestructible

An extract from a WikiLeak cable.

*F-16s: Dont Violate Our Deal
----------------------------- 
¶14. (C) In closing, Musharraf said that the Pakistan Air Force was upset over what they felt was the U.S. undermining by design the agreement to sell Pakistan F-16s. Musharraf said, dont violate this deal as it would unnecessarily upset bilateral relations.*

So...we are not getting the full package?


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## GUNNER

Final batch of Block-52 F-16s coming on Monday. Just heard!

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## farhan_9909

GUNNER said:


> Final batch of Block-52 F-16s coming on Monday. Just heard!



i am sure all the 500Aim-120C-5 will be delievered with the last batch


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## Safriz

Indestructible said:


> According to software point of view, a kill switch cannot just turn of the systems of an aircraft when airborne. It could cause a crash. Rebooting isn't easy in air. One more thing to consider is that all systems are tested prior to take off and ammunitions updated in the aircraft's digital inventory. If a F-16 is to fly with 2 AMRAAMs then the inventory would be updated accordingly. There is no question of jamming of missiles when the pilot tries to fire on a locked target. Though it is possible for a transmitting device in range of the aircraft that is specially built to target systems on a F-16 to jam the inventory and its functionality. IMO we need not to worry about the kill switches. There aren't any.



Kill switch may shut off the Fly by wire...but the aircraft must be built for manual controls as well?


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## fatman17

Indestructible said:


> An extract from a WikiLeak cable.
> 
> *F-16s: Dont Violate Our Deal
> -----------------------------
> ¶14. (C) In closing, Musharraf said that the Pakistan Air Force was upset over what they felt was the U.S. undermining by design the agreement to sell Pakistan F-16s. Musharraf said, dont violate this deal as it would unnecessarily upset bilateral relations.*
> 
> So...we are not getting the full package?



means what !!! he's referring to changing 'conditions' of the agreement not about any hardware!


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## Indestructible

fatman17 said:


> means what !!! he's referring to changing 'conditions' of the agreement not about any hardware!



Oh Okay.

@Safriz:

Well...There may be an alternative if the kill switch can shutdown the fly-by-wire system (which I highly doubt). I have asked some of my university professors who teach avionics courses about this and they said a kill switch is highly unlikely. F16 on board systems are tested on ground using testing devices. Lots of testing is done on the aircraft's software and it is made free of anomalies (if there are any). If there was a kill switch then it would have been found already.


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## SQ8

Ive got a funny feeling that ten years later....if defence.pk exists.. there will still be talk to kill switches

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## Safriz

santro said:


> Ive got a funny feeling that ten years later....if defence.pk exists.. there will still be talk to kill switches



Hope the kill switch idea makes PAF so paranoid that they stop relying on US made jets and make their own....

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## Dazzler

The whole JFT program and soon FC-20 is a big step to get rid of Yanks once and for all. I am told that blk 52s will most likely be, the last high tech american fighters in PAF until something drastic happens.

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## abaseen99

Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI, aka Tusas) says it has finally signed the deal to upgrade Pakistan's F-16A/Bs. The contract, worth around $75 million, is to install Mid Life Update kits and structural modifications in 42 F-16s over 46 months beginning in October 2010 - about two years later than originally planned. Pakistan is also to receive 18 new F-16C/Ds beginning in 2010.


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## fatman17

on monday 13th dec, LM will deliver the final batch of F-16C/D completing the contract for 18 blk-52s well ahead of schedule.

now i have been on this board going on 4 years and i remember majority of the pakistani 'PAF lovers' all expressing the view that PAF will never see the 'light of the day' or in other words, the a/c will never be delivered.

well here we are 2010, and all 18 birds safely (almost) delivered to shabaz AB and the 5th squadron will officially stand up with its full complement.

what does the future hold - look for the PAF to 'press' the US to resolve the delivery of 14 F-16A/B (11 As and 3Bs) from the embargoed a/c or agree to deliver 18 new models.

this issue will be resolved in 2011.

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## fatman17

*PAF to get six new F-16 jets from US*

LAHORE: Six new F-16 C/D block 52 high-tech aircraft will reach Pakistan from the US on December 13, a private TV channel reported on Friday. According to the reports, Pakistan has so far received 12 fighter aircraft. The new batch of six F-16 aircraft would bring the number of F-16 aircraft in the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) to 18. Pakistan had signed a contract with the US in 2005-06 for the acquisition of 18 F-16 aircraft, the channel said. *daily times monitor*


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## MastanKhan

Indestructible said:


> Oh Okay.
> 
> @Safriz:
> 
> Well...There may be an alternative if the kill switch can shutdown the fly-by-wire system (which I highly doubt). I have asked some of my university professors who teach avionics courses about this and they said a kill switch is highly unlikely. F16 on board systems are tested on ground using testing devices. Lots of testing is done on the aircraft's software and it is made free of anomalies (if there are any). If there was a kill switch then it would have been found already.



Hi,

What can be done is a program that can shut off systems once you cross certain latitude or longitude---you cross a certain point the trigger is initiated and the sleeper program gets a pulse to wake up and initiates the program to shut down---you are over enemy territory---the plane goes down---can't recover the black box.

Is it doable----you computer jocks tell me.


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## fatman17

*Turkey to upgrade PAF F-16s*

By: Maqbool Malik | Published: December 11, 2010 

ISLAMABAD &#8211; Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has opted for Turkish Aerospace Industrial Complex &#8216;TAI&#8217; for the Mid Life Upgrade (MLU) of its F-16A/B aircraft fleet in a bid to enhance its operational capability.

Well-placed defence sources told The Nation on Friday that Pakistan and Turkey signed an agreement in this regard last week and the multimillion dollars project would begin soon. Sources said that Pakistan has opted for &#8216;TAI&#8217; - the Ankara-based Turkish aerospace industrial complex - just for the cost-effectiveness after its lengthy negotiations with the US manufacturers failed to bear fruits. &#8220;The US manufacturers of the F-16 aircraft were very expensive. Therefore Pakistan had to opt for Turkey,&#8221; a source said.

Sources further said that under the agreement the project, that was expected to kick-start within next two months or so, would be executed in phases. The PAF, which currently has more than 40 F-16 A/B multi-roller fighter fleet, would soon start sending its F-16 aircraft to Turkey for the MLU.

TAI, established in 1984, is a joint venture of various Turkish companies and had successfully realised the co-production of F-16 fighters, CN-235 light transport/maritime patrol/surveillance aircraft, SF-260 trainers, Cougar AS-532 general purpose helicopters.

With its proven experience and know-how, TAI has improved its capabilities in the fields of design, production, modernisation, modification and systems integration of fixed and rotary wing air platforms, unmanned aerial vehicles and satellite.

Because of the high quality stringent standards including the NATO AQAP-2110, ISO-9001: 2000 and AS EN 9100, TAI has won position of a qualified supplier for Aermacchi, Agusta Westland, Airbus, Boeing, EADS CASA, Eurocopter, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, MDHI, Sikorsky etc.

_seems the MLU program is 2 months behind schedule!_

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## abaseen99

upgradation of f 16


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## BATMAN

> seems the MLU program is 2 months behind schedule!



What else can we expect from inept govt.


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## BATMAN

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What can be done is a program that can shut off systems once you cross certain latitude or longitude---you cross a certain point the trigger is initiated and the sleeper program gets a pulse to wake up and initiates the program to shut down---you are over enemy territory---the plane goes down---can't recover the black box.
> 
> Is it doable----you computer jocks tell me.



I'm not computer geek but all i know about softwares is it is do-able.
Any input can be used to execute a certain functions of software.
Any conditions can be set for any software function to trigger output.
Since you are not the author of the program, you will never be able to see it as long you are not allowed with engineering tools.

Anyhow, when we speak of kill switches people immediately take it in literary terms.
It can also be some special frequency in enemy radar which is really designed to identify F-16 in cluster of flying objects.
It can be a sensor/radar of an ensuing BVR.
US can pass such hints to India, Iran and Afghanistan.

I have already mentioned that Indian mafia is quite commanding in US govt. they can have such info. through their moles embedded after 9-11 in various private US firms and why LM shall be an exception!

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## GUNNER

*ISLAMABAD Dec 13 (APP):* With the induction of fourth batch of new F-16 C/D Block 52+ aircraft in Pakistan Air Force the delivery of the squadron of the aircraft from USA has been completed. 

A simple but impressive ceremony was held on Monday at the PAF Base, Shahbaz (Jacobabad), which was attended by Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, and US Ambassador to Pakistan, Cameron P Munter were present on the occasion. A number of PAF and US officials also attended the ceremony. 

Arrival of the last batch completes the delivery of F-16s C/D Block 52 models, which Pakistan had contracted for the PAF during 2005. 

Air Chief addressing the gathering said, F-16s have proved to be a game changer in our fight against extremism and terrorism. It has brought quick, decisive and least expensive success, with negligible or no collateral damage when employed in South Waziristan, Swat, Bajaur, Orakzai and Kurram agencies of FATA. 

"The mission of PAF is to maintain peace with honor in the region. We live in volatile and uncertain times, in such environment it is a difficult mission. However, our commitment and resolve to defend Pakistan is unshakable". 

*Air chief Marshal Rao said "Whenever required, PAF will employ all assets and resources at its disposal, including these aircraft to defend the nation against external and internal threats". *

*US Ambassador on the occasion said "these advanced fightersare enormously significant and powerful tools. These aircraft will help your forces to protect your people and will serve legitimate defence needs of Pakistan.* Let no one question this: you are in tough fight. And let no one doubt that America stands with you". He said "Our government shares a positive vision of partnership one founded on shared values, common interests, and mutual respect. On this foundation rests America's clear and comprehensive commitment to the well-being and progress of the people of Pakistan". 


PAF is in the process of rapidly operationalizing the new fighter aircraft. In this regard a select group of PAF Airmen had been given training on the new weapon system in USA earlier this year. 

A re-equipment ceremony of F-16 C/D Block 52 aircraft squadron is planned to be held in near future. The F-16 Block 52 aircraft represents the latest configuration of Lockheed Martin's 4th generation multirole fighter, offering additional fuel and payload capacity, new or improved avionics and sensors, and color cockpit displays with enhanced pilot/vehicle interfaces. This is the fourth batch of new F-16s delivered; the first delivery of three took place June 27. Subsequent deliveries were made on October 30 and November 20. 

*Additionally, the U.S. is working with the PAF to update 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the U.S. Foreign Military Financing security assistance program*. *When the updates are completed, these aircraft will have capabilities similar to those of the new F-16s, including advanced communications and a precision targeting system. The first batch of updated F-16s is scheduled to arrive in Pakistan in early 2012.*

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## fatman17

*F-16D-52M Fighting Falcon *

D ;5
Cu;5
O;1

Pakistan Air Force 1 

- Note: Initial firm order for 6 examples announced 31st December 2007 as part of the 'Peace Drive I' programme. As of mid-April 2008, an option for a further 6 examples appears to have been cancelled. The first F-16D from this batch was officially accepted by the Pakistan AF in a cermony at Fort Worth on 13th October 2009, after performing its maiden flight on 29th September. The first pair of F-16Ds from this batch were delivered, as expected, on 26th June 2010, with the third example following suit on 30th October 2010, the fourth on 20th November 2010 & the fifth on 13th December 2010. The sixth aircraft will remain in the United States for further test & development work until delivery during 2011.

- Located at 5 Squadron


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## fatman17

*F-16C-52M Fighting Falcon* 

D;12
Cu;12

Pakistan Air Force 

- Note: The initial firm order for 12 examples was announced 31st December 2007 as part of the 'Peace Drive I' programme. As of mid-April 2008, an option for a further 12 examples appears to have been cancelled. The first aircraft from this batch was delivered, as expected, on 26th June 2010, with the next batch of 2 aircraft arriving in Pakistan on 30th October 2010. Another tranche of 5 examples followed suit on 20th November 2010 & the final 4 aircraft arrived on 13th December 2010, to complete the deliveries.

- Located at 5 Squadron


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## air marshal

_*On December 13, 2010, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force with US Ambassador to Pakistan, Cameron Munter during arrival ceremony of final batch of PAF's new F-16 C/D Block 52+ Aircraft from USA at PAF Base, Shahbaz.*_






*On December 13, 2010, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Chief of the Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force giving memento to US Ambassador to Pakistan, Cameron Munter during arrival ceremony of final batch of PAF's new F-16 C/D Block 52+ Aircraft from USA at PAF Base, Shahbaz.*

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Have to thank Musharif and US for this deal back in 2005 

Much needed planes for our Airforce but I do hope we get the 18 extra as we had an option for extra 18 planes - 

Only deal Zardari gov has closed down , is the deal to close Geo TV

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## Manticore

air marshal said:


>



2 cft, amraam and aim 9 x.


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## DANGER-ZONE

ANTIBODY said:


> 2 cft, amraam and aim 9 x.



another blunder to point out GRAY NOSE


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## MZUBAIR

PAF hav more options to buy 14 +18 + 26(used).
Is it true?


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## Areesh

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF hav more options to buy 14 +18 + 26(used).
> Is it true?



Yup it is true...

14 embargoed + 18 New F16Block52+26 F-16(used)

PAF wants to maintain a fleet of 100 F-16's...

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## fatman17

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF hav more options to buy 14 +18 + 26(used).
> Is it true?



14 embargoed are still deliverable from the US
18 new - PAF mulling option to buy subject to funds availability - US does not provide FMF/FMS financing/grants for F-16s - it has to be our own funds.


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## monitor

fatman17 said:


> 14 embargoed are still deliverable from the US
> 18 new - PAF mulling option to buy subject to funds availability - US does not provide FMF/FMS financing/grants for F-16s - it has to be our own funds.



Little confused sir Pakistan had option for 36 f-16 out of that 18 is coming and other 18 will be consider if fund available arn't it ?
so the fleet will be 45(mlu)+18(new)+18( new,if fund available)+26(used)= 107

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## DESERT FIGHTER

@monitor:we may even buy norwegian blk 52s!


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## SQ8

Pakistani Nationalist said:


> @monitor:we may even buy norwegian blk 52s!



The modernized F-16's are known as F-16AM's and BM's.
The block still stays the same.. structural changes between the blocks make the difference. No pre 30 block has the common engine bay.. so must use the P&W engine.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I guess before we aquire the F16 used , from Norway we really need to ask our seleves 

a) Do technologically can we update the planes in next 4-5 years
with AESA radars and other enhacements? 

b) What about spares and parts ? 

*My understanding is that Pakistan is getting these extra 60 planes 
as spares so if we have 140 planes in inventory we can use 20 of these for spare parts etc *

But perhaps we should just buy the spareparts while the F16 Manufacturing companies are still open in US 


F16 is a wonderful plane , but I would be more comfortable with such high inventories if we had the TOT as we will be able to make our own parts etc or integrate new ones 

But its a win win situation for us if the planes will cost us $5 Million / plane which I doubt is true


A 150 F16 plane inventory is perfect for our Defence Needs 

*But we also need 300 JF17 thunders and J10B*

The major problem with F16 is that it comes with Western Avionics , which mean its codes and , signals are known to alot of people , which makes flying these planes vs certain nations a risk ... for our Airforce - 


*This is why Turkey flies its planes with its own Avionics and electronics *


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## Myth_buster_1

Their is no point of using block 10-15 as spare parts since eventually PAF entire F-16 fleet will be upgraded to block 52 standard. IMO if PAF does manage to induct these planes they are gonna be upgraded to MLU M4 or M5.


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## SQ8

Growler said:


> Their is no point of using block 10-15 as spare parts since eventually PAF entire F-16 fleet will be upgraded to block 52 standard. IMO if PAF does manage to induct these planes they are gonna be upgraded to MLU M4 or M5.



Actually there is.
The upgrade program features replacement of avionics..such as radar, cockpit systems, computer etc.
But the thingamachik on the block 15 MLU in the left wing is the same thingamachik after an upgrade. 
So screws..panels.. pneumatics, Wing, tail, fuselage, gears, nose.. all remain the same.
That is a lot of useful spare parts.

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## DANGER-ZONE

*PAF F-16C block 52 #10908 is seen coming into land at NAS Fort Worth on November 10th, 2010.*

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## DANGER-ZONE

*December 15, 2010 (by Lieven Dewitte) - Pakistan received the last five F-16s of a batch of 18 ordered from the United States on December 13th.*

Pakistan had signed a contract with the US administration in 2006 for 18 F-16 C/D block 52 aircraft.

The arrival of the five jets marked the delivery of all 18 planes by the US, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) said.

The jets flew into Shahbaz airbase in Jacobabad city in southern Sindh province, after a stop over at Lajes Field, Azores.

The F-16 C/D Block 52 jets are equipped with a sophisticated avionics suite and latest weapons with night precision attack capability. The jets were acquired by the PAF as part of its bid to modernise and 
enhance its air defence capabilities.

This is the fourth batch of new F-16s delivered; the first delivery of three took place June 27. Subsequent deliveries were made on October 30 and November 20. 

_Additionally, the U.S. is working with the PAF to update 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the U.S. Foreign Military Financing security assistance program. When the updates are completed, these aircraft will have capabilities similar to those of the new F-16s, including advanced communications and a precision targeting system. The first batch of updated F-16s is scheduled to arrive in Pakistan in early 2012_.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article4267.html

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## DANGER-ZONE

i would like to add some pictorial presentation to *Santro's* info, as many people here seems to be confused about MLU f-16's physical appearance.

*Example from Portugal F-16 MLU process *

*F-16 A/B without MLU* 














*Under going MLU* 






*Flight test, in primary colors after converting: OCU to MLU*













*The physical differences b/w F-16 A/B and MLU are couples of antennas in front of cockpit and wingtip rails, rest remains same.

Same would be done with our birds.*

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## Mani2020

oh man its canopy kills me, inspite of Russian tech they havenot still come-up with something like this beast's bubbly canopy


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## fatman17

*Badger pilots deliver new Falcons to Pakistan* 

December 21, 2010 (by 115 FW) - On October 26, 2010, five pilots from the 176th Fighter Squadron departed the Lockheed Martin factory in Fort Worth, Texas, with five brand-new F-16 block 52 fighters, bound for Pakistan. 



Maj. Bart Van Roo, Lt. Col. Doug Read and Maj. Chris Hansen (back row, center), pose with officials from the Pakistani Air Force after delivering three new F-16s to Shahbaz AB on October 30, 2010. They were the second batch of new F-16s being delivered as part of an order of 18 in the Peace Drive program of 2006.

Lt. Col. Doug Read led the five-ship flight, joined by Lt. Col. Charlie Merkel, Majors Chris Hansen and Bart Van Roo, and Captain Jon Hullsiek. Approaching the East Coast, Merkel's jet developed a problem and he and Hullsiek diverted to Burlington, Vermont. 

The remaining three aircraft pressed on to Lajes Air Base, Azores, Portugal, then continued over the next few days to Souda Bay NAS, Crete, Greece, and arrived at Shahbaz AB, Pakistan on October 30. The two diverted jets were eventually returned to Fort Worth for more maintenance and will be delivered with the next two cells.

A large diplomatic gathering met the pilots as they landed at Shahbaz, including Air Marshal Mohammad Hassan, PAF Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations and Brig. Gen. Michael Nagata, Deputy Commander of the Office of the Defense Representative to Pakistan. 

There was a festive atmosphere for the arrival, complete with a large tent and welcoming party that, according to Lt. Col. Read, "...was a really big deal!" The new Pakistani squadron commander met the Americans and introduced them to the VIPs. A banquet ensued with the Badger pilots sitting at the head table. An official hand-over ceremony for the F-16s followed.

After the banquet, the pilots were airlifted by the Pakistani Air Force to Islamabad for their trip home.

Flight lead Read said he got to know the chief of Flight Operation at DCMA Lockheed when Read made two deliveries to Greece in 2009. When the opportunity came up to deliver these new jets to Pakistan, Read volunteered and had no trouble finding 176 FS pilots who wanted to join him. Major Van Roo had made one of the trips to Greece, as well.

The trips overseas to deliver new F-16s to our allies certainly give the opportunity to show our friends abroad the capabilities of the Air National Guard, the proficiency and professionalism of our pilots, and some good "face time", as we never know when our respective countries and fighter units may be called upon to serve side-by-side in combat.

Courtesy of 115th Fighter Wing Public Affairs

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## DANGER-ZONE

*Maj. Bart Van Roo, Lt. Col. Doug Read and Maj. Chris Hansen (back row, center), pose with officials from the Pakistani Air Force after delivering three new F-16s to Shahbaz AB on October 30, 2010. [USAF photo]*





*Maj. Bart Van Roo shake shands with Air Marshal Mohammad Hassan, PAF Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations on October 30, 2010, after delivering one of three new F-16s to the Pakistani Air Force. Lt. Col. Doug Read (second from right) and Maj. Chris Hansen delivered two more F-16s the same day. [USAF photo] *






*Lt. Col. Doug Read accepts a warm welcome at Shahbaz AB, Pakistan, after he and fellow 176th Fighter Squadron pilots Majors Bart Van Roo and Chris Hansen delivered three new F-16s to the Pakistani Air Force on October 30, 2010. [USAF photo]*

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## Tahiryounus

*Nice Thread *


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## Mani2020

Tahiryounus said:


> *Nice Thread *



We never new 

Kindly introduce yourself first in Members introduction area


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## Faheka.afk

Pakistani MLU?

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## Manticore

faheka said:


> Pakistani MLU?



looks like an arrows paf insignia thanks for the pic!


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## TaimiKhan

It seems MLU of PAF F-16s have already started and seem to be at some advance stage.


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

TaimiKhan said:


> It seems MLU of PAF F-16s have already started and seem to be at some advance stage.



yep,
its very good news cos we need them upgraded in quick time.
and they would be equal in capabilities to to block 40 but i am not very sure about it.


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## Indestructible

^^They would be extremely close to our new Blk-52+.


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## umair86pk

yup in terms of weapons and avionics PAF MLU will be far superior to Euro MLU with newer APG-68v9 radar and better EW/ECM suite.


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## fatman17

ANTIBODY said:


> looks like an arrows paf insignia thanks for the pic!



6 a/c in Turkey - MLU has recently started - 4 a/c in US (pattern a/c) will complete MLU by early 2012.

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## DANGER-ZONE

TaimiKhan said:


> It seems MLU of PAF F-16s have already started and seem to be at some advance stage.



No bro. in the picture it shows, it is in initial stages.






*its much similar to this one* 





its in the initial stage where all the parts and avionics are separated out and only airframe lefts behind for major structural over hauling.it is also called as de-paneling process after that aircrafts are re assembled.

here is an *Original F-16 MLU manual*. its quite heavy site and it might hung ur PC.So better download on computer and enjoy worthy info.
F-16 MLU Manual Part 1

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## farhan_9909

Why is the MLU so late.

and cant PAC do the MLU things for f-16 when it can manufacture jf-17 totally indegenously except engine.

i knw PAC is more advance then TAI..integrating new engine and new radar is nt a big deal for PAC..


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## Shahzad Sultan

will MLU f-16s have air to air refuelling capability ?


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## Xestan

Shahzad Sultan said:


> will MLU f-16s have air to air refuelling capability ?



They should have, otherwise what's the use of spending so much money on MLU.

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## DANGER-ZONE

farhan_9909 said:


> Why is the MLU so late.
> 
> and cant PAC do the MLU things for f-16 when it can manufacture jf-17 totally indegenously except engine.
> 
> i knw PAC is more advance then TAI..integrating new engine and new radar is nt a big deal for PAC..



u r flying above the limit, come down man ur flight is over.
and there are a lot of Indian here to pick ur post and DHOOL DHAMAKA TROLL.

PAF might upgrade a few 5 or 10 at PAC at the last stages of MLU process. currently PAC ain't that advance to modify F-16.

As u talked about Jf-17, remember what CAS said in evaluation ceremony of first Jf-17 111 "JF-17 is a light, low cost, Easy to produce aircraft that is capable of delivering advance weapons". in other words its a Cheap birds easy to manufacture and maintain. 
F-16 is not a low cost bird neither it is easy to maintain as compared to Jf-17.


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## umair86pk

initially MLU at PAC was considered but PAC is already involved in JF-17 production so idea was dropped.


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## umair86pk

UmEr Rajpoot said:


> They should have, otherwise what's the use of spending so much money on MLU.



gosh guys IFR in F-16 added with MLU you got be kidding me.
F-16 was built around in-flight refueling back in the 70s.
It uses the USAF Boom Aerial refueling capability. PAF F-16s has that capability since 1983 but we don't use it as we currently don't have Boom refuelers.

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## Myth_buster_1

farhan_9909 said:


> Why is the MLU so late.
> 
> and cant PAC do the MLU things for f-16 when it can manufacture jf-17 totally indegenously except engine.
> 
> i knw PAC is more advance then TAI..integrating new engine and new radar is nt a big deal for PAC..



You are wrong.

The major programs of TAI include:
* Electronic warfare retrofit and structural modifications on TuAF F-16s.[2]
* MLU, Falcon-Up and Falcon Star Modifications on the Royal Jordanian Airforce ( RJAF ) F-16s,[3]
* Modifications of 42 Block-15 F-16's of Pakistan Air Force to Block-50.[4]
* Modification of the S-2E Tracker Maritime Patrol Aircraft into Fire Fighting Aircraft
* CN-235 and Black Hawk modifications for the Turkish Special Forces
* Modification of CN-235 platforms for MPA/MSA missions for the Turkish Navy and Coast Guard
* Modification and modernization of Eurocopter AS 532[5]
* Glass Cockpit Retrofit of S-70 helicopters[6]
* Conversion of B737-700 aircraft AEW&C aircraft[7]
* Avionics modernization of C-130 aircraft for the Turkish Air Force (TuAF) [8]
* Production of the center fuselage of Joint Strike Fighter F-35 aircraft[9]
* Participating in the design and development of the A400M military transport and tanker aircraft[10]
* Avionics modernization of T-38 aircraft for the Turkish Air Force [11]
* Design, development and production of the attack helicopter T-129 for the Turkish Armed Forces (TAF).[12]
* Design, development and production of Turkish Primary and Basic Training Aircraft, named HÜRKU&#350;, with EASA CS-23 certification.[13]
* Design, development and production of Anka unmanned aerial vehicle for the Turkish Air Force.[14]

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## fatman17

umair86pk said:


> gosh guys IFR in F-16 added with MLU you got be kidding me.
> F-16 was built around in-flight refueling back in the 70s.
> It uses the USAF Boom Aerial refueling capability. PAF F-16s has that capability since 1983 but we don't use it as we currently don't have Boom refuelers.



very, very correct - the plumbing is in-built!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i do know U.S. is planning to retire some of their KC-135s, though at this point I think we should work with what we have for now, and perfect it. 

the israelis locally developed a conversion kit (IAI Lahav IFR probe) for their F-16C refuelling needs-- no reason at all why we cant do the same....


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## Abu Zolfiqar



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## BATMAN

fatman17 said:


> 6 a/c in Turkey - MLU has recently started - 4 a/c in US (pattern a/c) will complete MLU by early 2012.



Finally, first news from the 4 F-16 in US for MLU.
If i remember correctly 2 F-16 were sent form Pakistan and 2 were added from ex-US stock, under FMS.

It has been long long time since 2 left Pakistan for MLU.
I hope Turkish can do it faster than Americans.


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## Myth_buster_1

BATMAN said:


> Finally, first news from the 4 F-16 in US for MLU.
> If i remember correctly 2 F-16 were sent form Pakistan and 2 were added from ex-US stock, under FMS.
> 
> It has been long long time since 2 left Pakistan for MLU.
> I hope Turkish can do it faster than Americans.



I am sure their is more to American chapter then just MLU. Most probably PAF ground crew are going through intense training in order to cope with maintenance etc.


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## ynmian

F16 is the only fighter which is very well proportionate. No matter from what angle you see it, its so propertional, I mean size of wing, tail, nose, everything is well proportionate. Now, block 52 which has a spine and two buldge on left and right of fueslage really disappointed me. what do u say guys?

ps.s Similarly I noticed airbus series airlines are proportionate too.


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## @rrows

Has Turkey started the MLU of our F-16. if I am correct 4 are undergoing MLU in US what is the current status of these aircraft.


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## rolandzhangt

&#21457;&#36825;&#20010;&#24086;&#23376;&#26159;&#20026;&#20102;&#25226;&#20013;&#22269;&#30340;4&#20195;&#26426;&#30340;&#22270;&#29255;&#21457;&#19978;&#26469;
Pls webmaster forgive me!

---------- Post added at 09:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 PM ----------

&#21457;&#36825;&#20010;&#24086;&#23376;&#26159;&#20026;&#20102;&#25226;&#20013;&#22269;&#30340;4&#20195;&#26426;&#30340;&#22270;&#29255;&#21457;&#19978;&#26469;
Pls webmaster forgive me!
A chinese brother


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## notorious_eagle

Here's a good video regarding the transfer of the latest F16's to PAF.

DVIDS - Video - F-16 Transfer To Pakistan Air Force

Interview with one of the pilots

http://www.dvidshub.net/video/100988/us-f-16-transfer-pakistan-air-force

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## ynmian

notorious_eagle said:


> Here's a good video regarding the transfer of the latest F16's to PAF.
> 
> DVIDS - Video - F-16 Transfer To Pakistan Air Force
> 
> Interview with one of the pilots
> 
> DVIDS - Video - U.S. F-16 Transfer to Pakistan Air Force



hmmm.......I did not know that the new planes were brought buy American pilots, i thought they were brought by our pilots.

One plane has a spine (2 seater one) why is that? while other 2 have calssic f16 shape, can anyone explain please.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

ynmian said:


> hmmm.......I did not know that the new planes were brought buy American pilots, i thought they were brought by our pilots.



Not all were americans. PAF pilots did fly some of them home.



> One plane has a spine (2 seater one) why is that? while other 2 have calssic f16 shape, can anyone explain please.



Block 52(+) has more hardware then the Block 52 and the Dual seat takes quite alot of space in the aircraft so dorsal spine is required to install all those new stuff in.


----------



## ynmian

thanks Growler

I have built an understanding that

F16 A/B are same technology wise B is two seater thats it.

block 25 or 40 C/D are same but D is two seater.

block 52 C/D are same but D is two seater.

ami right guys?


----------



## Myth_buster_1

ynmian said:


> thanks Growler
> 
> I have built an understanding that
> 
> F16 A/B are same technology wise B is two seater thats it.
> 
> block 25 or 40 C/D are same but D is two seater.
> 
> block 52 C/D are same but D is two seater.
> 
> ami right guys?



Block 5 10 15 20 25 30 32 40 42 50 52 52+ 60 all are either single or twin seaters but capability wise are different. 

PAF older fleet are block 15 with single and twin seats and are technically the same but the advantage of twin seat is that new pilots can be trained though its not primarily used as a trainer.

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## ynmian

a quick question, see the nose (where canopy starts) there are four pieces. what are these and in which block they were introduced.


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## Imran Khan

ynmian said:


> a quick question, see the nose (where canopy starts) there are four pieces. what are these and in which block they were introduced.



block-50 to 60 and mlu also


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## farhan_9909

any news about the 14 more?


----------



## Imran Khan

farhan_9909 said:


> any news about the 14 more?



quick answer?
forget them


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

ynmian said:


>





> see the nose


thats beautiful 


> (where canopy starts)


ya she's exactly there 


> there are four pieces.


i see only one master piece 


> what are these and in which block they were introduced.


these are beauties, u will find such kind of beauties in every single block introduced in USAF

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## ynmian

hey Growler:

you mentioned that two seater has spine. but here i this pic single seater has spine.

now if block 50 and 52 are separate models. then can i assume that block 52 single seat has spine and block 50 single seat doesn't have.


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## ynmian

hey danger zone see this (for your interest)

F-16 Woman pilots

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## Imran Khan

ynmian said:


> hey Growler:
> 
> you mentioned that two seater has spine. but here i this pic single seater has spine.
> 
> now if block 50 and 52 are separate models. then can i assume that block 52 single seat has spine and block 50 single seat doesn't have.



these are CFTs not spine friend

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## ynmian

Imran Khan said:


> these are CFTs not spine friend



ok thanks can u remove these tanks ,

also my question remains the same about blocks.


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## Imran Khan

ynmian said:


> ok thanks can u remove these tanks ,
> 
> also my question remains the same about blocks.



yes its 25mints job to instal and remove CFT. which qes abut blocks dear look back page


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## ynmian

Imran Khan said:


> yes its 25mints job to instal and remove CFT. which qes abut blocks dear look back page



my question is solved here

Conformal Fuel Tanks for F-16

one seater or two seater both can have CFT. the spin appears only in 2 seater because of additional hardware.


----------



## Imran Khan

ynmian said:


> my question is solved here
> 
> Conformal Fuel Tanks for F-16
> 
> one seater or two seater both can have CFT. the spin appears only in 2 seater because of additional hardware.



yes sir you are right .this i know since i see first time block-52


----------



## ynmian

Imran Khan said:


> yes sir you are right .this i know since i see first time block-52



app ke kia baat hai.


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## Imran Khan

ynmian said:


> app ke kia baat hai.



yes kiyoon nhi

for more info these spines first designed and istalled by Israel on sofa latter they become standard of block-52+.


> IDF was first, to house their specialized electronics. The first Block 30 D models procured by Israel featured the definitive spine.




but basic idea is very old look here Douglas A-4L Skyhawk

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## ynmian

Since this thread is specific for F16 fans, has anyone played Falcon 3 or Falcon 4 or Falcon 4 Allied Force?


----------



## ynmian

see this slow roll





and this fast roll at 2:07 minutes





and this fast roll too






I saw thunderbirds and another f16 guy this year in houston airshow and they rolled f16 exactly on axis.

i have seen some pakistani pilots f16 roll in videos. why they cant roll excatly on the axis. maybe because they are not acrobat piltos or airshow experts. or maybe at slow speeds its not possible to roll excatly on axis. as an example see this at 2:07






any comments?


----------



## ynmian

deleted deleted


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## Mani2020

*@ynmian*

You are asking basic questions which have been answered by many members on this thread 100 of times.you should better go through the whole thread you will surely find a lot of info which will not only add to your knowledge but also will save this thread from disgracing .

Regards


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## ynmian

@Mani2020 sb.

which basic question u r refering too?


----------



## Dazzler

ynmian said:


> see this slow roll
> YouTube - f-16 roll over show center then pulls up
> 
> and this fast roll at 2:07 minutes
> YouTube - Nicole Malachowski First Woman USAF Thunderbird Pilot
> 
> and this fast roll too
> 
> YouTube - F-16 Roll
> 
> I saw thunderbirds and another f16 guy this year in houston airshow and they rolled f16 exactly on axis.
> 
> i have seen some pakistani pilots f16 roll in videos. why they cant roll excatly on the axis. maybe because they are not acrobat piltos or airshow experts. or maybe at slow speeds its not possible to roll excatly on axis. as an example see this at 2:07
> 
> YouTube - PAF received first Saab 2000 Airborne Warning & Control System (AEW&C) - December 8, 2009
> 
> any comments?



Brother, i have played falcon 3 and 4 , regarding your question on rolls, i have seen my self that PAF pilots are able to roll even a mirage so beautifully with different techniques that its amazing, let alone the f-16 which seems like favorite toy to them. Its not whether they are short of airshow expertise, its just their way of showing the skill. Most of us think that quick roll, rocket climb, quick turn or dropping at high speed is skill, on the contrary, its all extremely difficult to do at low speed and this is why pilot skills are tested more at low speeds when you have less power, loosing altitude quickly. We saw a glimpse of this skill in Zhuhai with JFT's stunning low speed performance....

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## husn25

Salaam 
I am reader of defence.pk for long time and recently got registered. I have read that our old f-16s going through MLU. I cant find the date when it will be all completed.
Can some1 kindly mention the time it will take for all of old ones to be upgraded? 
Thanks


----------



## SQ8

husn25 said:


> Salaam
> I am reader of defence.pk for long time and recently got registered. I have read that our old f-16s going through MLU. I cant find the date when it will be all completed.
> Can some1 kindly mention the time it will take for all of old ones to be upgraded?
> Thanks



Hi

If you have been a reader for a long time..I suggest you go through the last ten pages or so of this thread.. your question will be answered.

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## fatman17

husn25 said:


> Salaam
> I am reader of defence.pk for long time and recently got registered. I have read that our old f-16s going through MLU. I cant find the date when it will be all completed.
> Can some1 kindly mention the time it will take for all of old ones to be upgraded?
> Thanks



42months starting in nov-2010


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## husn25

@fatman17
Thanks for the answer.

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> 42months starting in nov-2010



will the STAR upgrades running is parrallel.. or .. as a matter of fact, are these still intact??


----------



## ynmian

nabil_05 said:


> Brother, i have played falcon 3 and 4 , regarding your question on rolls, i have seen my self that PAF pilots are able to roll even a mirage so beautifully with different techniques that its amazing, let alone the f-16 which seems like favorite toy to them. Its not whether they are short of airshow expertise, its just their way of showing the skill. Most of us think that quick roll, rocket climb, quick turn or dropping at high speed is skill, on the contrary, its all extremely difficult to do at low speed and this is why pilot skills are tested more at low speeds when you have less power, loosing altitude quickly. We saw a glimpse of this skill in Zhuhai with JFT's stunning low speed performance....



thanks for replying.


----------



## fatman17

*5 Jan 1986 
Worldwide F-16 fleet surpasses one million flight hours*

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## DANGER-ZONE

*Embargoed PAF F-16A Block 15, #92-0408 carrying PAF serial 93739 and US ferry marks sits on the receiving line at AMARC. The aircraft went to the US Navy in late 2002. [Photo by Kevin Patrick]*

they must have completely ruined our bird.

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## farhan_9909

why no CFT on our block 52?

each CFT has 1700 litres.and by this the range of f-16 will surpass 5000km


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## Windjammer

An Interesting news item appeared in the latest issue of AFM Magazine.
" A final batch of five F-16 Block 52s arrived at Shahbaz Air Base on December 13, marking completion of deliveries to the PAF. Although 18 aircraft were ordered, only 17 have actually arrived in Pakistan.The first F-16D 10801, although officially handed over, has been retained in the US for continued development work and is currently operating from Edwards Air Force Base, California.
The delivered aircraft are flown at Shahbaz by 5 Squadron, previously a Mirage unit.

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## TOPGUN

Windjammer said:


> An Interesting news item appeared in the latest issue of AFM Magazine.
> " A final batch of five F-16 Block 52s arrived at Shahbaz Air Base on December 13, marking completion of deliveries to the PAF. Although 18 aircraft were ordered, only 17 have actually arrived in Pakistan.The first F-16D 10801, although officially handed over, has been retained in the US for continued development work and is currently operating from Edwards Air Force Base, California.
> The delivered aircraft are flown at Shahbaz by 5 Squadron, previously a Mirage unit.



I wonder why is the last viper held back ?


----------



## Mani2020

TOPGUN said:


> I wonder why is the last viper held back ?



may be for training PAF pilots


----------



## fatman17

*has been retained in the US for continued development work *

could only mean 'evaluating' sensors or weapons!

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## Silk

According to original delivery schedule the plane is to be delivered in january 2011. It was the first to be tested and they probably have to refit it (remove the testing equipment) and probably doing some maintenance to make it brand new again. There is no strange or new development.


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## Windjammer

TOPGUN said:


> I wonder why is the last viper held back ?



Perhaps they forgot to implement the so called "Kill Switches".


----------



## AUz

Windjammer said:


> Perhaps they forgot to implement the so called "Kill Switches".



Good one


----------



## blain2

fatman17 said:


> *has been retained in the US for continued development work *
> 
> could only mean 'evaluating' sensors or weapons!



It took off with the last 3 but developed a technical problem and returned. It will be in Pakistan shortly.

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## blain2

arsalanaslam123 said:


> will the STAR upgrades running is parrallel.. or .. as a matter of fact, are these still intact??



As far as I am aware, the MLU will incorporate structural upgrades. Its a one-time deal. Once the aircraft come out of MLU, they will have structural upgrades as well as avionics ones.


----------



## MZUBAIR



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## MZUBAIR

Means our inventory would hav F-16's, JF-17's & Mirage ROSE.

Later years we will be having J10B....and then may be J20 (stealth)


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## Mani2020

MZUBAIR said:


> Means our inventory would hav F-16's, JF-17's & Mirage ROSE.
> 
> Later years we will be having J10B....and then may be J20 (stealth)



Its not a hidden truth.

Mirage ROSE will serve atleast 5-6 more years along with F-7PG,while the non ROSE mirages and other non PG F-7's will gradually be replaced by jf-17


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

*Built for Pakistan as 92732 (FMS 90-0945) but then embargoed. Has left AMARC for service with US Navy NSAWC*





*Delivered to Pakistan as 92-614*





*February 2, 2009:Another of the embargoed Pakistan F-16 working for the USN now.*

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## Mani2020

danger-zone said:


> *Built for Pakistan as 92732 (FMS 90-0945) but then embargoed. Has left AMARC for service with US Navy NSAWC*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Delivered to Pakistan as 92-614*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *February 2, 2009:Another of the embargoed Pakistan F-16 working for the USN now.*



are these stealthy pics? coz i can't see them


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## Imran Khan

upload them again dear but i sure i already see them.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Mani2020 said:


> are these stealthy pics? coz i can't see them


brand new technology mate 



Peace101 said:


> upload them again dear but i sure i already see them.



i ve my eyes on few websites, when ever a new Picture is uploaded there i post it on PDF at once. 
so i guess they are not old.
when u changed your name Imran bhai, ?


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## Imran Khan

danger-zone said:


> brand new technology mate
> 
> 
> 
> i ve my eyes on few websites, when ever a new Picture is uploaded there i post it on PDF at once.
> so i guess they are not old.
> when u changed your name Imran bhai, ?



these pics are old dear but good for new members or people which never seen them before thanks for post.

after salman taseer murder i change many things


----------



## Dazzler

ALQ 211 and Pakistan F-16 fleet, another confirmation on two different variants, internal as well as more advanced podded 211 V9.. So, our blk 52's feature a SIRFC EW suite!!


Unlike any previous Aircraft Survivability Equipment (ASE) suite, the AN/ALQ-211 Suite of Integrated RF Countermeasures (SIRFC) broadband countermeasures set is designed to counter pulse, pulse-Doppler, continuous-wave and monopulse threats. The passive receiver portion of the system warns of emitters from C to M band and has the discrimination to identify threats with better than 90 percent certainty. Typically, radar-warning receivers look at just two signal parameters to identify enemy air defenders. By comparison, SIRFC checks 10 parameters to fingerprint enemy emitters with confidence. Threat characteristics are stored in the electronic order of battle that is loaded before each mission, and crews can call up threat data in flight. The SIRFC will replace the AN/APR-39A(V)1 radar warning receiver, the AN/ALQ-136(V)1/5 radar jammer and - in its podded form - the AN/ALQ-131 jammer pod and will give added countermeasures against continuous wave and pulse doppler threats. The total weight for the suite is 97 pounds. 

SIRFC consists of three subsystems:

* Advanced Threat Radar Jammer (ATRJ)
* Advanced Threat Radar Warning Receiver (ATRWR)
* Advanced Airborne Radio Frequency Expendables (AARFE) 

The SIRFC core consists of an Advanced Threat Radar Warning Receiver (ATRWR) and the Advanced Threat Radar Jammer (ATRJ). The core Engineering and Manufacturing Development (EMD) design is comprised of four components. The Receiver/Processor containing the receiving, processing, and electronic countermeasures (ECM) generation functions of the ATRJ. The Remote Transmitter provide the self-protection transmitting capability of the ATRJ. The Advanced Countermeasures Module (ACM) provides advanced ECM techniques against a particular class of weapons. Finally, the Antenna Group which contains the receiver antenna for reception of microwave and millimeter wave signals and transmit antenna for transmission of microwave ECM signals.

The system is capable of operating in either an automatic or manual (command) mode. It provides warning (situational awareness), active jamming (self protection), and when necessary expendable countermeasures to defeat threat radar guided weapon systems. Radar guided air defense artillery threat systems include surface to air missiles (SAMs) and anti-aircraft artillery (AAA). A Southwest Asia theater of operations set in 2006 is the basis for threat selection for the engineering and manufacturing development (EMD) program. Future integration of SIRFC with the Suite of Integrated InfraRed CounterMeasures (SIIRCM), in some aircraft which may be equipped with both systems, is a program objective to optimize multi-spectral threat countermeasures. Threat systems are not only those originating from within the Former Soviet Union, but also systems made and proliferated by the United States, US allies, and other weapons producers. 

Versions
AN/ALQ-211(V)1

Integrated on US AH-64D Longbow Apache.
AN/ALQ-211(V)2

Integrated in MV-22A.
AN/ALQ-211(V)3

The variant called ALQ-211(V)3 was selected for the US Army's RAH-66 Comanche attack helicopter. Comanche was cancelled in 2004.
AN/ALQ-211(V)4

This version of the ALQ-211 utilizes advanced wideband and digital receivers to quickly and accurately detect and identify multiple, complex emitters when operating in today's high density threat environment. AIDEWS provides protection against radar based threats using a highly flexible, programmable technique generator that transmits deceptive countermeasure signals and coordinates use of chaff and flares. Standard on export F-16 Block 50/52 and ordered by Chile, Pakistan, Maroc, Oman, Poland.
AN/ALQ-211(V)5

Norway selected the -211(V)5 variant for its NH90 helicopters.
AN/ALQ-211(V)6

Integrated in MH-47E.
AN/ALQ-211(V)7

Integrated in MH-60R.
AN/ALQ-211(V)8

The AN/ALQ-211(V)8 variant is available for Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) providing ELINT, Electronic Support Measures (ESM) and targeting.
AN/ALQ-211(V)9

Aka Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS). Pod mounted AN/ALQ-211 jammer with the same aerodynamic and mass properties as the AN/ALQ-131, for which it is aimed as a replacement. Unit price approx. $ 3.5 million (including support, spares, documentation). Ordered by Pakistan.
Applications

* F-16C/D Block 50/52
* C-130J (export variants)
* NH-90
* AH-64D
* MH-47E/MH-47G
* MH-60K/MH-60M
* CV-22A/MV-22A 



ITT AN/ALQ-211 - Scramble

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## Desert Fox

nabil_05 said:


> ALQ 211 and Pakistan F-16 fleet, another confirmation on two different variants, internal as well as more advanced podded 211 V9.. So, our blk 52's feature a SIRFC EW suite!!
> 
> 
> Unlike any previous Aircraft Survivability Equipment (ASE) suite, the AN/ALQ-211 Suite of Integrated RF Countermeasures (SIRFC) broadband countermeasures set is designed to counter pulse, pulse-Doppler, continuous-wave and monopulse threats. The passive receiver portion of the system warns of emitters from C to M band and has the discrimination to identify threats with better than 90 percent certainty. Typically, radar-warning receivers look at just two signal parameters to identify enemy air defenders. By comparison, SIRFC checks 10 parameters to fingerprint enemy emitters with confidence. Threat characteristics are stored in the electronic order of battle that is loaded before each mission, and crews can call up threat data in flight. The SIRFC will replace the AN/APR-39A(V)1 radar warning receiver, the AN/ALQ-136(V)1/5 radar jammer and - in its podded form - the AN/ALQ-131 jammer pod and will give added countermeasures against continuous wave and pulse doppler threats. The total weight for the suite is 97 pounds.
> 
> SIRFC consists of three subsystems:
> 
> * Advanced Threat Radar Jammer (ATRJ)
> * Advanced Threat Radar Warning Receiver (ATRWR)
> * Advanced Airborne Radio Frequency Expendables (AARFE)
> 
> The SIRFC core consists of an Advanced Threat Radar Warning Receiver (ATRWR) and the Advanced Threat Radar Jammer (ATRJ). The core Engineering and Manufacturing Development (EMD) design is comprised of four components. The Receiver/Processor containing the receiving, processing, and electronic countermeasures (ECM) generation functions of the ATRJ. The Remote Transmitter provide the self-protection transmitting capability of the ATRJ. The Advanced Countermeasures Module (ACM) provides advanced ECM techniques against a particular class of weapons. Finally, the Antenna Group which contains the receiver antenna for reception of microwave and millimeter wave signals and transmit antenna for transmission of microwave ECM signals.
> 
> The system is capable of operating in either an automatic or manual (command) mode. It provides warning (situational awareness), active jamming (self protection), and when necessary expendable countermeasures to defeat threat radar guided weapon systems. Radar guided air defense artillery threat systems include surface to air missiles (SAMs) and anti-aircraft artillery (AAA). A Southwest Asia theater of operations set in 2006 is the basis for threat selection for the engineering and manufacturing development (EMD) program. Future integration of SIRFC with the Suite of Integrated InfraRed CounterMeasures (SIIRCM), in some aircraft which may be equipped with both systems, is a program objective to optimize multi-spectral threat countermeasures. Threat systems are not only those originating from within the Former Soviet Union, but also systems made and proliferated by the United States, US allies, and other weapons producers.
> 
> Versions
> AN/ALQ-211(V)1
> 
> Integrated on US AH-64D Longbow Apache.
> AN/ALQ-211(V)2
> 
> Integrated in MV-22A.
> AN/ALQ-211(V)3
> 
> The variant called ALQ-211(V)3 was selected for the US Army's RAH-66 Comanche attack helicopter. Comanche was cancelled in 2004.
> AN/ALQ-211(V)4
> 
> This version of the ALQ-211 utilizes advanced wideband and digital receivers to quickly and accurately detect and identify multiple, complex emitters when operating in today's high density threat environment. AIDEWS provides protection against radar based threats using a highly flexible, programmable technique generator that transmits deceptive countermeasure signals and coordinates use of chaff and flares. Standard on export F-16 Block 50/52 and ordered by Chile, Pakistan, Maroc, Oman, Poland.
> AN/ALQ-211(V)5
> 
> Norway selected the -211(V)5 variant for its NH90 helicopters.
> AN/ALQ-211(V)6
> 
> Integrated in MH-47E.
> AN/ALQ-211(V)7
> 
> Integrated in MH-60R.
> AN/ALQ-211(V)8
> 
> The AN/ALQ-211(V)8 variant is available for Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) providing ELINT, Electronic Support Measures (ESM) and targeting.
> AN/ALQ-211(V)9
> 
> Aka Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS). Pod mounted AN/ALQ-211 jammer with the same aerodynamic and mass properties as the AN/ALQ-131, for which it is aimed as a replacement. Unit price approx. $ 3.5 million (including support, spares, documentation). Ordered by Pakistan.
> Applications
> 
> * F-16C/D Block 50/52
> * C-130J (export variants)
> * NH-90
> * AH-64D
> * MH-47E/MH-47G
> * MH-60K/MH-60M
> * CV-22A/MV-22A
> 
> 
> 
> ITT AN/ALQ-211 - Scramble



How many F-16's will Pakistan have in total when we acquire both MLU's and BLK52's?

i heard it will be 70-72? is that true?


----------



## Areesh

SilentNinja said:


> How many F-16's will Pakistan have in total when we acquire both MLU's and BLK52's?
> 
> i heard it will be 70-72? is that true?



Yes they will if we get all of our embargoed F-16's back.


----------



## graphican

Areesh said:


> Yes they will if we get all of our embargoed F-16's back.



But why would we get them back? US and Pakistan are about to point guns at each other.. US is already mad at us and the way things are going, it will only help them go further crazy. Yet another "honey-moon" period of this relationship is over. Did you hear they are stopping our reimbursement and agreed money already? So what else is left to hope those embargoed planes would get back.. I think we should rather welcome the new embargoes that just around the corner for us.


----------



## razgriz19

Areesh said:


> Yes they will if we get all of our embargoed F-16's back.


total 28 f-16s were embargoed. we recieved 14 of them in last couple of years. and instead of other 14 aircraft, we recieved grains, soybeans, etc, from US. 
so basically US dont owe us any more f-16s...

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## Aamir Hussain

Thanks for clearing up this confusion.


----------



## air marshal

*The induction of new F-16's Block-52 in No. 5 squadron based at PAF Base Jacobabad.*

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## air marshal

*Two F-16D serial# 10801 and 10805 flying over FATA.*

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## ynmian

Mani2020 said:


> Its not a hidden truth.
> 
> Mirage ROSE will serve atleast 5-6 more years along with F-7PG,while the non ROSE mirages and other non PG F-7's will gradually be replaced by jf-17



Non PG or Non ROSE waloon ke mauj hoo jaee gee.


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## ynmian

air marshal said:


> *Two F-16D serial# 10801 and 10805 flying over FATA.*



I DONT LIKE THIS SPINE

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## insomniac00

me neither


----------



## Stealth_fighter

F-16's of No. 9 squadron returning back from exercises Red Flag, held in USA.


this pic is really cool..i like it

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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> total 28 f-16s were embargoed. we recieved 14 of them in last couple of years. and instead of other 14 aircraft, we recieved grains, soybeans, etc, from US.
> so basically US dont owe us any more f-16s...



not quite correct - the money in question was US$650m which was advance-payment for the F-16s.

350m was utilised to purchase 'other weapons' and 300m was returned in soybeans.....meanwhile 911 took place, the sanctions were removed - no one wanted these 28 F-16s parked in the desert - not NZ, not Philiapines - they were 'transferred' to USAF and USN - in 2006 Bush admin 'agreed' to give back the a/c as a sign of 'good-will' - USAF released the 14 a/c - the USN did not - in essence the US still owes us 14 F-16s - they offered blk-25/30/40 a/c parked in AMRAC but the PAF rejected these mounts due to their 'airframe stress' - in other words they were too old - so now come in the Norway F-16s as the US has given 'NoC' for PAF to negotiate with the NoAF - further new F-16s are possible but we have to come up with our own funds which looks 'bleak' at this time.

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## shanasai

14+14=28

14 received
another 
14 also received in terms of Grains.


hahahaha Funny


----------



## Mani2020

---------- Post added at 11:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 AM ----------

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well we could take a air to air refueler tanker or two for good will


----------



## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## Stealth_fighter



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## ynmian

Are these 4 part of the 18 A/C we finally received in Dec 2010?

Moreover they are not block 50/52.


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## razgriz19

ynmian said:


> Are these 4 part of the 18 A/C we finally received in Dec 2010?
> 
> Moreover they are not block 50/52.



LOL where do u see A/Cs in them????
and obviously they are not blk 50/52!
look at the pic carefully! they are Bs


----------



## razgriz19

fatman17 said:


> not quite correct - the money in question was US$650m which was advance-payment for the F-16s.
> 
> *350m was utilised to purchase 'other weapons' and 300m was returned in soybeans*.....meanwhile 911 took place, the sanctions were removed - no one wanted these 28 F-16s parked in the desert - not NZ, not Philiapines - they were 'transferred' to USAF and USN - in 2006 Bush admin 'agreed' to give back the a/c as a sign of 'good-will' - USAF released the 14 a/c - the USN did not - in essence the US still owes us 14 F-16s - they offered blk-25/30/40 a/c parked in AMRAC but the PAF rejected these mounts due to their 'airframe stress' - in other words they were too old - so now come in the Norway F-16s as the US has given 'NoC' for PAF to negotiate with the NoAF - further new F-16s are possible but we have to come up with our own funds which looks 'bleak' at this time.



so we basically got our money back. that means they dont owe us anything...
and btw that info was from an interview that musharraf gave it to a western news channel
so i kinda quoted his words......but its the first hand info and that means its reliable!


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## rajan_united

US just squezing every drop from its F-16 production lines. Offering India F-16 and saying it ill be the best F-16 ever.....
Pak should buy from China, India from Russia France. BYE BYE OBAMA

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## air marshal

*Three of six Pakistani Falcons lined up on rwy 15 ready for departure back home after Red Flag. Note the vortex at engine intake. *

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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> so we basically got our money back. that means they dont owe us anything...
> and btw that info was from an interview that musharraf gave it to a western news channel
> so i kinda quoted his words......but its the first hand info and that means its reliable!



there is always gaps between what anyone says in a interview and the 'gory' details. if i offended you, i apologise for that!


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## ynmian

razgriz19 said:


> LOL where do u see A/Cs in them????
> and obviously they are not blk 50/52!
> look at the pic carefully! they are Bs



bhai jan...4 aircrafts in the back ground, I know they are Bs (obviously if they are not D then they are Bs).

you have increased my knowledge by saying they are Bs 






my question is still not answered
Are these 4 part of the 18 aircrafts we finally received in Dec 2010? or they belong to some other delivery.


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## bc040400065

ynmian said:


> bhai jan...4 aircrafts in the back ground, I know they are Bs (obviously if they are not D then they are Bs).
> 
> you have increased my knowledge by saying they are Bs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my question is still not answered
> Are these 4 part of the 18 aircrafts we finally received in Dec 2010? or they belong to some other delivery.




though i don't have much knowledge and info about these but just my 2 cents. these are the 4 B's that we recived in 2007. If you read the note under the picture you would have an idea about it. Or may be im wrong but thats all what comes to my mind.


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## DANGER-ZONE

ynmian said:


> bhai jan...4 aircrafts in the back ground, I know they are Bs (obviously if they are not D then they are Bs).
> 
> you have increased my knowledge by saying they are Bs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my question is still not answered
> Are these 4 part of the 18 aircrafts we finally received in Dec 2010? or they belong to some other delivery.



This is an old picture and these birds are 4 out of 14 embargoed F-16 of Pakistan, delivered to PAF in 2008 not in 10.

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## Tehmasib

Salam to All
CFT shows on only pic ......when we see in real...........


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## SBD-3

ynmian said:


> bhai jan...4 aircrafts in the back ground, I know they are Bs (obviously if they are not D then they are Bs).
> 
> you have increased my knowledge by saying they are Bs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my question is still not answered
> Are these 4 part of the 18 aircrafts we finally received in Dec 2010? or they belong to some other delivery.



The serial of 80++++ visible on 1st plane means that these are not the C/D as 80 in the start of serial means that they are 80s manufactured (since PAF Bl 52+ starts from 10801,901 meaning production of 2010), anyways here are the extracts


> After the detonation of five nuclear devices by India in May 1998, in a remote area close to its border with Pakistan, Washington feared that this might escalate the old border dispute between Pakistan and India to a full crisis. In order to keep Pakistan from responding to this challenge, US president Bill Clinton suggested that the 28 stored F-16s would be delivered after all, in batches of 1 or 2. However, the internal pressure on the government proved to strong and shortly after India's demonstration, Pakistan responded by detonating an unknown number of nuclear devices.
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> In 2002, the US finally stopped trying to sell the aircraft and decided to assign them to the USAF and US Navy to fill the Aggressor role. After the demise of the (T)F-16N aggressor force, the US Navy lacked a high-performance aggressor aircraft. Because of the low airframe life of the embargoed Pakistani F-16s, these airframes were ideally suited for the demanding aggressor role. The 28 aircraft were thus evenly split between the USAF and the US Navy, and will take a vital role in DACT training of US forces.
> 
> After the attacks on 9/11 the Pakistani government became a major US ally in the war on terror. It was decided to redeliver those aircraft to Pakistan. Untill now, only half of them has been redelivered, *with the remainder still to follow.*
> http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article14.html


here is the delivery schedule
http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/serials-and-inventory/airforce/PAF/1/
I hope this weeds out confusion


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## MastanKhan

razgriz19 said:


> so we basically got our money back. that means they dont owe us anything...
> and btw that info was from an interview that musharraf gave it to a western news channel
> so i kinda quoted his words......but its the first hand info and that means its reliable!



Hi,

You got that right----the money back with no interest at all----how long they kept close to 3/4 billion dollars----.

One of the biggest screw ups of paf history---a law suit in the u s court of law would have earned them some respect----and also penalty as well---as well as interest and some dignity and honor.

Actually we barely got some of the money back----700 million dollars after 8---10 years at nominal interest rate would have been a substantial amount---it showed how impotent the paf management and pak govt was at that time----. Just consider the devaluation factor of the dollar during that time.

Giving an example-----when all the money was in----supposedlly in a construction project a 100 miles of road cost a 100 million dollars---after 10 years the cost to do the same job may have gone up as much as 5 to 10 times---ie from a 1/2 billion to a billion dollars.

So---basically---pakistan which gave close to 700 million dollars upfront got back in real money maybe about 100 million dollars worth of equipment and grain.

That is a black spot on PAF----.


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## truthseeker2010

What is the current cost of a new F-16, whichever variant that is currently under production. The total cost that comes of a FMS program, what does that include?


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## Dazzler

truthseeker2010 said:


> What is the current cost of a new F-16, whichever variant that is currently under production. The total cost that comes of a FMS program, what does that include?



Only blk 50/52+ (Pakistan, Poland, Chile, Greece, Morocco, Turkey, Singapore etc..), 60/62 (exclusive for UAE) are under production. Cost varies from 50-60 million$ for 50/52 to 70-80 million $ for blk 60/62.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

MastanKhan said:


> So---basically---pakistan which gave close to 700 million dollars upfront got back in real money maybe about 100 million dollars worth of equipment and grain.
> 
> That is a black spot on PAF----.



To a large extent, I agree.

from Pakistan's perspective, many can say that allies do not treat allies this way; it was totally wrong. The service is not awash in money to be dishing around; AT LEAST the money should have been returned. But instead it (and the aircrafts) were held hostage

still didn't deter us from enriching uranium --which takes us to the American perspective....

and that is, enriching uranium had its repercussions which Pakistan did face. I believe it was Colin Powell who admitted that Pakistan was ''sanctioned to the teeth'' (to a greater degree than Iran even)

which takes us BACK to the Pakistani standpoint. indian were the one who started the trend, we were just reacting as it was in our existential right.

9/11 and GWOT was an ''opportunity'' for Pakistan, but in net terms ---it was the biggest curse for Pakistan and other countries (Iraq and Afghanistan included)

15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi nationals --many 'bred' in Germany and even the U.S. Yet the weaker countries which had nothing to do with 9/11 suffered --politically and otherwise.


Now we do have the new F-16s, and/but we must move towards self-reliance and joint projects as this is the key to PAF success as it aims to continue its policy of minimal credible deterrance


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## blain2

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You got that right----the money back with no interest at all----how long they kept close to 3/4 billion dollars----.
> 
> One of the biggest screw ups of paf history---a law suit in the u s court of law would have earned them some respect----and also penalty as well---as well as interest and some dignity and honor.
> 
> Actually we barely got some of the money back----700 million dollars after 8---10 years at nominal interest rate would have been a substantial amount---it showed how impotent the paf management and pak govt was at that time----. Just consider the devaluation factor of the dollar during that time.
> 
> Giving an example-----when all the money was in----supposedlly in a construction project a 100 miles of road cost a 100 million dollars---after 10 years the cost to do the same job may have gone up as much as 5 to 10 times---ie from a 1/2 billion to a billion dollars.
> 
> So---basically---pakistan which gave close to 700 million dollars upfront got back in real money maybe about 100 million dollars worth of equipment and grain.
> 
> That is a black spot on PAF----.



MK,

This has nothing to do with the PAF. They are not supposed to push for litigation, rather its the job of the GoP. The issue was that the US administration kept on telling Pakistan yes we will return the money and not to make a bad situation worse, GoP did not go for litigation.

The Pakistani side got a raw deal and there is no denying this, however as I have said this before, its the job of the foreign office and the GoP to ascertain what the political climate is, what is going on with the Pak-US relations so we can safeguard our own interests (in this case had the FO and the GoP been mindful, we could have stopped making payments for the F-16s), but nobody had the foresight. PAF are the end user, they had indicated that they wanted this weapon system and they went along with the purchase. It was the job of our mission, the foreign office and overall the GoP to have decided to stop the payments as soon as the sanctions were put on. But due to certain assurances given by some in the US Admin and in the hopes of trying to keep a bad situation from becoming worse, decisions were taken.

Since its hindsight, its easy for us to say that it was a bad call, but at the time maybe those in the know must have thought lets continue the course. Hopefully we are all the wiser for it now and won't repeat this mistake again.


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## razgriz19

fatman17 said:


> there is always gaps between what anyone says in a interview and the 'gory' details. if i offended you, i apologise for that!



yes, ur correct no one tells the true story...(i mean gov officials)

and definitely NO, im not offended! =)

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## razgriz19

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You got that right----the money back with no interest at all----how long they kept close to 3/4 billion dollars----.
> 
> One of the biggest screw ups of paf history---a law suit in the u s court of law would have earned them some respect----and also penalty as well---as well as interest and some dignity and honor.
> 
> Actually we barely got some of the money back----700 million dollars after 8---10 years at nominal interest rate would have been a substantial amount---it showed how impotent the paf management and pak govt was at that time----. Just consider the devaluation factor of the dollar during that time.
> 
> Giving an example-----when all the money was in----supposedlly in a construction project a 100 miles of road cost a 100 million dollars---after 10 years the cost to do the same job may have gone up as much as 5 to 10 times---ie from a 1/2 billion to a billion dollars.
> 
> So---basically---pakistan which gave close to 700 million dollars upfront got back in real money maybe about 100 million dollars worth of equipment and grain.
> 
> That is a black spot on PAF----.



so i guess u can say that $700 million from 80s would be nearly a $$billion in todays money!

so yea... in that case sir fatman17 is correct! US still owe us some money...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

well I think GoP also did, within its very limited means and leverage, what it could do

we were enriching uranium, and therefore we faced consequences for it......we did what we had to do. But let bygons by bygons --as long as we learn lessons and don't repeat history --which is, unfortunately, something we keep doing over and over again


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## v1per

I don't see any use spending so much on the Block 50/52 for PAF as they have come with handlers who will decide where these planes get used. They are there because of the dirty banyas whose dothi is wetted every time Pakistan wants to purchase any thing. These handlers are there to make sure that these planes do not get used against the banya. Why bother with this, it would have been better to go for the Gripen or the Rafael or even waited for the Chinese J10.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

yaara, what's done is done at this point

and those Frenchies and other EU arms contractors and govts. don't do EDA or FMS programs for 'allied major Non-nato countries' as far as i know. They like to see cash upfront. And cash don't grow on trees, especially nowdays.

let's make do with what we have

FC-20 will take some more time to be mastered and to meet PAF requirements, though i definitely do see its induction within next 2-4 years


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## blain2

v1per said:


> I don't see any use spending so much on the Block 50/52 for PAF as they have come with handlers who will decide where these planes get used. They are there because of the dirty banyas whose dothi is wetted every time Pakistan wants to purchase any thing. These handlers are there to make sure that these planes do not get used against the banya. Why bother with this, it would have been better to go for the Gripen or the Rafael or even waited for the Chinese J10.



There is no stopping PAF from using the aircraft against India or any others. Handlers and supporters came in the 60s as well as part of equipping Pakistan to handle the communist threat. However Pakistan used that equipment as and when it felt it was necessary.

Gripen and Rafale both are just as easily sanction prone as the F-16s. With the West, you have to be ready for such eventuality.

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## MastanKhan

Blain2,

Pak millitary had always been very involved in making its deals and very much involved in what to do and what to say---. The generals, admirals and air marshalls were always deeply involved in what they decided.

The only problem was that they were clueless about american business practises and operations of the american government. The picture was painted on the wall---pakistani generals, air marshalls, admirals and politicians were clueless as to how decipher it. They never took the oppurtunity to understand what the americans were saying.

We assumed what was going to happen---we assumed there were no issues---americans were openly stating there were issues.

Now, either they are europeans or otherwise---you have to make the contract with the manufacturer itself with the blessings of the state---secondly---the contractual agreements need to have ironclad guarantees---thirdly---the F 16 deal at that time was a bad choice for paf---they should have taken the french option---the mirage 2 k---that would have been a coupe de grace on the indian air force---.

Paf would have choked them to submission just like that----the F 16 purchase was a blunder of the worst kind.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

oh common Khan sahib, that's a bit 'unfair' no?

I wouldnt call it a blunder......

again, the europeans are not so flexible --especially the Frenchies! Of course when you have aircrafts you PAID for sitting in containers (along with the cash) then that isnt very 'flexible' either

but let's not be cynical bhai......the F-16 Falcon is by far (to me) one of the most potent, battle-proven, reliable, and adaptable fighter aircrafts to have served in any air defence service worldwide


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## Mani2020

*Three of six Pakistani Falcons lined up on rwy 15 ready for departure back home after Red Flag
*


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## fatman17

extract from Jane's;

"Previously, in July 2007, the US agreed to deliver 28 additional F-16 fighter aircraft (13 F-16As and 15 F-16Bs) to Pakistan, following service with the USAF and US Navy. These aircraft were donated except for transportation costs, but were purchased and paid for by Pakistan many years ago only to fall foul of an embargo. All of the USAF machines (three F-16As and 11 F-16Bs) were handed over by July 2008, but the US Navy has not agreed to release its aircraft (10 F-16As and four F-16Bs)"

they owe us 14 a/c!

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## ynmian

nabil_05 said:


> Only blk 50/52+ (Pakistan, Poland, Chile, Greece, Morocco, Turkey, Singapore etc..), 60/62 (exclusive for UAE) are under production. Cost varies from 50-60 million$ for 50/52 to 70-80 million $ for blk 60/62.




I did not know blk 50/52 is 50million each. I thought at the max it will be 25million because typically a viper price is 22million


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## ynmian

fatman17 said:


> extract from Jane's;
> 
> "Previously, in July 2007, the US agreed to deliver 28 additional F-16 fighter aircraft (13 F-16As and 15 F-16Bs) to Pakistan, following service with the USAF and US Navy. These aircraft were donated except for transportation costs, but were purchased and paid for by Pakistan many years ago only to fall foul of an embargo. All of the USAF machines (three F-16As and 11 F-16Bs) were handed over by July 2008, but the US Navy has not agreed to release its aircraft (10 F-16As and four F-16Bs)"
> 
> they owe us 14 a/c!



I dont understand why do we need Bs or Ds (two seate) so seriously. It says above 13As and 1Bs. why do we need that huge proportion of a two seater less agile aircraft. the backseater doesnt do anything, its not a tornado.


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## Silk

ynmian said:


> I dont understand why do we need Bs or Ds (two seate) so seriously. It says above 13As and 1Bs. why do we need that huge proportion of a two seater less agile aircraft. the backseater doesnt do anything, its not a tornado.



trainers, keeping up hours for more pilots, tasks that need long endurance or are complex for just one person. And during combat you can use extra eyes. Believe me. It is a lot more complex then driving a car at very high speed with lots of cars trying to hit you and at the same time you need to check and answer mail on your pocketcomputer...

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## blain2

MastanKhan said:


> Blain2,
> 
> Pak millitary had always been very involved in making its deals and very much involved in what to do and what to say---. The generals, admirals and air marshalls were always deeply involved in what they decided.
> 
> The only problem was that they were clueless about american business practises and operations of the american government. The picture was painted on the wall---pakistani generals, air marshalls, admirals and politicians were clueless as to how decipher it. They never took the oppurtunity to understand what the americans were saying.
> 
> We assumed what was going to happen---we assumed there were no issues---americans were openly stating there were issues.
> 
> Now, either they are europeans or otherwise---you have to make the contract with the manufacturer itself with the blessings of the state---secondly---the contractual agreements need to have ironclad guarantees---thirdly---the F 16 deal at that time was a bad choice for paf---they should have taken the french option---the mirage 2 k---that would have been a coupe de grace on the indian air force---.
> 
> Paf would have choked them to submission just like that----the F 16 purchase was a blunder of the worst kind.



You are right that the military has been involved in decision making because after all they are the end-users. Once the Air staff or the GHQ evaluates and approves a purchase, that is the extent of their involvement. The rest is handled by the ministry of defence through various Pakistani missions in the country of the origin of the weapon system. All that the services do after they have approved the acquisition is that they track its arrival and the associated activities for training and induction. The military at this point has no insight into the geo-political climate prevailing as far as our relations with the seller country are concerned. This is the job of the diplomats of our missions and the foreign office and thus my point that its not entirely the fault of the military to have been blind-sided by the American refusal to deliver.

Without a shadow of doubt, the F-16s were the most cost-effective solution as well as the best value for the money at the time of their purchase by the PAF in 82. There was virtually no other multi-role platform available to the PAF on the market at that time. Not Mirage 2000, not Gripen, not anything else.

As I have said, in my opinion, the decision to continue payments and not go the route of litigation was a government decision and not one taken by the PAF command.


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## Silk

Buying from any producer gives everyone headaches. In case of high performance fighterjets you take a gamble. I doubt Mirage 2000 being a better option. See India now paying big time. See the low numbers available in the market.

One thing you must understand is that political choice are never based on facts that are technical. Atleast PAF did that. In the west they might have low open corruption but it is a lot bigger. Eastern Europe is buying F16's. There is more behind that then we all can see. Same goes for JSF at the moment. It is all behind the scenes.


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## masijames

coming to this thread is like opening a graveyard

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## blain2

Silk said:


> trainers, keeping up hours for more pilots, tasks that need long endurance or are complex for just one person. And during combat you can use extra eyes. Believe me. It is a lot more complex then driving a car at very high speed with lots of cars trying to hit you and at the same time you need to check and answer mail on your pocketcomputer...



I would also add that blk52 2 seaters are entirely different than the F-16 Bs that we acquired earlier. You can have a fully mission capable pilot in the rear seat and there are enough dedicated avionics in the rear seat of the blk-52s for the pilot to stay busy. PAF does not buy a lot of dual seaters because long range strike is a consideration, but not the primary one for the PAF.

In battlefield interdiction and close support (surface attack) roles, having a pilot with active sensors in the rear seat helps the pilot focus on flying and leaving the munitions delivery to the pilot in the back seat. This is not to suggest that the pilots cannot do this, but with so many inputs coming from various instruments, lightening the workload of the pilot helps.

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## ynmian

Silk said:


> trainers, keeping up hours for more pilots, tasks that need long endurance or are complex for just one person. And during combat you can use extra eyes. Believe me. It is a lot more complex then driving a car at very high speed with lots of cars trying to hit you and at the same time you need to check and answer mail on your pocketcomputer...



I agree with fact "keeping up hours for more pilots" (which is new to me ), all other things u said I already knew, but just asked this question becuase ordering big quantities of Bs and Ds worried me


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## fatman17

masijames said:


> coming to this thread is like opening a graveyard



.....there is a tendency to live in the past.......move on!


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## MastanKhan

fatman17 said:


> .....there is a tendency to live in the past.......move on!



Sir,

Your past leads to your future---

Your past is the foundation on which your future is built upon---

What you have done in the past is what you end up doing in the future---

your past holds the secrets to your successes and failures---

Past is like an anchor to a ship---a ship without an anchor like a boat without a sail---

those who forget their past---find no place in the future---

Got some more---


your past is like your shadow---you can never run away from it---

your past will stay with you the rest of your life and you will take it to your grave with you---

what you have done in the past---that is what you will reap in the future---

you will die one day----but your generations to come will suffer for what you have done in the past or what you didnot do in the past

without a comprehensive and a solid past---there is no workable and profitable future

you will be haunted by the misdeeds of the past the rest of your life

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## farhan_9909

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Your past leads to your future---
> 
> Your past is the foundation on which your future is built upon---
> 
> What you have done in the past is what you end up doing in the future---
> 
> your past holds the secrets to your successes and failures---
> 
> Past is like an anchor to a ship---a ship without an anchor like a boat without a sail---
> 
> those who forget their past---find no place in the future---



really Good yaar


----------



## razgriz19

fatman17 said:


> extract from Jane's;
> 
> "Previously, in July 2007, the US agreed to deliver 28 additional F-16 fighter aircraft (13 F-16As and 15 F-16Bs) to Pakistan, following service with the USAF and US Navy. These aircraft were donated except for transportation costs, but were purchased and paid for by Pakistan many years ago only to fall foul of an embargo. All of the USAF machines (three F-16As and 11 F-16Bs) were handed over by July 2008, but the US Navy has not agreed to release its aircraft (10 F-16As and four F-16Bs)"
> 
> they owe us 14 a/c!



do we seriously have to go over this again..?
they paid us back our money for the 14 a/c that they owe us (in grains, and some money, i guess...)

i kno we paid money for new a/c and they gave us old (almost dead) a/c, but thats US u kno.....nothing we can do about it.....


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## MastanKhan

razgriz19 said:


> do we seriously have to go over this again..?
> they paid us back our money for the 14 a/c that they owe us (in grains, and some money, i guess...)
> 
> i kno we paid money for new a/c and they gave us old (almost dead) a/c, but thats US u kno.....nothing we can do about it.....



Hi,

My good man---you don't get it---it is not the U S that is the problem---it is us that is the problem---we knowingly dumped the money into the pit---.

Here is what happened---I was in the united states at that time---the news was rife that there are sanctions coming on pakistan---there were congressmen and senators who were putting up resolutions against pakistan for sanctions---. 

Pakistanis made themselves believe into an illusion that it won't happen---the bill to sanction pakistan was presented to Reagon many a times---he rejected it---because Reagan had political strength---when it was presented to Bush---he was a politically weak president---he could not say no---and signed the bill.

Whereas pak was watching all this happen and they still went ahead with the deal---the worst thing they did was kept on paying on the deal----they could have stopped right then and there and saved some 600 million dollars---but they kept on putting money into the bad deal---.

Let me make it clear---the sanctions came---no delivery---so pak insteda of stopping the payments kept on paying---if they would have known anything about american law---they would have immediately stopped payments---taken that money towards the purchase of Mirage 2000---. The americans courts allow the stoppage of payments in case of a dispute---then pak should have filed a law suit for breach of contract.

Pak believed that it would offend the americans---they fools they were---america is a litigation rich society---for them---a lawsuit is as rightful as breathing oxygen---and in the end no hard feelings after the verdict---life moves on---pak didnot know that---they nobody to tell them---they were clueless to what it meant---.

Why I keep harping about it----because pak has never invested in understanding the americans---pak has their own claustrophobic views about america and they believe that they are right---.

The americans did what the american law stated----pak didnot do what pak law stated----pak didnot look for its interest---. PLEASE DON'T BLAME THE AMERICANS---.

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## SekrutYakhni

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Your past leads to your future---
> 
> Your past is the foundation on which your future is built upon---
> 
> What you have done in the past is what you end up doing in the future---
> 
> your past holds the secrets to your successes and failures---
> 
> Past is like an anchor to a ship---a ship without an anchor like a boat without a sail---
> 
> those who forget their past---find no place in the future---




Right on the spot sir. Unfortunately, we find _'move on'_ everywhere in our society.


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## SekrutYakhni

_"Pakistanis made themselves believe into an illusion that it won't happen---the bill to sanction pakistan was presented to Reagon many a times---he rejected it---because Reagan had political strength---when it was presented to Bush---he was a politically weak president---he could not say no---and signed the bill."_

Sir, I'd blame Pakistani Americans too...There is no Pakistani American lobby group at federal level in the U.S....Had there been a strong lobby of Pakistanis, the outcome of our relationship with the U.S. would have been different.

*Edit: *I think that we had a chance to become influential during USSR-Afghan war...However, we waisted it, our foreign office and citizens...

The guy said peanuts and got birds in return...no one thought about social interaction/creating an influential lobby group


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Pakistanis don't give a sh---it about pakistani lobby in the U S---actually they are totally clueless to what it is---even the great CH Chief judge had passed some idiotic comments about the expnditure on a lobbying group by pak govt in the U S.

Whereas in other nations, political leaders and local public listen to their expats and try to get a better picture---paks consider the expats as outsiders---.

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## Mani2020

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pakistanis don't give a sh---it about pakistani lobby in the U S---actually they are totally clueless to what it is---even the great CH Chief judge had passed some idiotic comments about the expnditure on a lobbying group by pak govt in the U S.
> 
> Whereas in other nations, political leaders and local public listen to their expats and try to get a better picture---paks consider the expats as outsiders---.



Sir you are talking about this, lol i have seen many Pakistani's who after migrating to US even don't want to call them Pakistani's .Cheap mentality

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## SQ8

Mani2020 said:


> Sir you are talking about this, lol i have seen many Pakistani's who after migrating to US even don't want to call them Pakistani's .Cheap mentality



Off topic:
Its called the Papita effect..
ever seen how you marinate meat for kebabs with papaya??
The same is with these folks..
many of these people would normally speak.."asan tussan"..or in karachi.. "Mairay Pairants"..
They hit the US.. and voila.. its a texan accent..a sudden urge for Brands..and cheap hairgel..
Upstarts like these exist all over Pakistan..


The F-16 saga is Pakistan's own fault..
Or more appropriately.. isnt it always our own fault when we mess up..
but as MK put it.. there's never a lesson learned..
only ..move on.. or "gods will"..

On a side note.. 
F-16's at kamra these days I think.. or passing through.. saw em flying over the motorway..


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## MastanKhan

Mani2020 said:


> Sir you are talking about this, lol i have seen many Pakistani's who after migrating to US even don't want to call them Pakistani's .Cheap mentality



Hi Mani,

You are correct in what you are saying----when allah gives a chance or oppurtunity to an individual to be someone---his true self comes out.

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## rockstarIN

Off topic but as a side note, India hired one of the best consultancy firm for lobbying in US.

Indian govt, firms spent over $1.5 mn on US lobbying in 2010 - Yahoo! News



> The Indian government alone paid over USD 420,000 during 2010 to high-profile lobbyist Barbour Griffith & Rogers (BGR), while the private sector companies together paid more than USD 11,50,000 to their lobbyists.
> 
> The lobbying for the Indian government was done mostly with the US Senate on issues related to the bilateral relationship between the two countries, the disclosure said.
> 
> Till last year, the Indo-US nuclear deal used to be the main lobbying issue for the Indian government.
> 
> On the other hand, the private sector lobbied on issues related to their respective businesses.
> 
> The most prominent among the private sector entities, billionaire industrialist Mukesh Ambani-led Reliance Industries, paid a total of USD 7,60,000 to its US lobbyist, which also happens to be BGR.
> 
> RIL paid USD 190,000 each in the four quarters of 2010, while the amounts were the same in the previous year. MORE PTI BJ ARV
> ...


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## Stealth_fighter

is there any news about the buying of Norwegian F-16?is something gonna happen very soon?


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## All-Green

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Your past leads to your future---
> 
> Your past is the foundation on which your future is built upon---
> 
> What you have done in the past is what you end up doing in the future---
> 
> your past holds the secrets to your successes and failures---
> 
> Past is like an anchor to a ship---a ship without an anchor like a boat without a sail---
> 
> those who forget their past---find no place in the future---
> 
> Got some more---
> 
> 
> your past is like your shadow---you can never run away from it---
> 
> your past will stay with you the rest of your life and you will take it to your grave with you---
> 
> what you have done in the past---that is what you will reap in the future---
> 
> you will die one day----but your generations to come will suffer for what you have done in the past or what you didnot do in the past
> 
> without a comprehensive and a solid past---there is no workable and profitable future
> 
> you will be haunted by the misdeeds of the past the rest of your life



MK Sir,

But someone also said...

You can't speak yesterday's language to the concerns of today.
Control the controllable. 

I am just pulling your leg...

I agree with both the significance of the past and the importance of moving on.
Past is important but it should not be allowed to become a barrier blocking your future decisions, decisions which have to be based on the present circumstances.

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## MastanKhan

All-Green said:


> MK Sir,
> 
> But someone also said...
> 
> You can't speak yesterday's language to the concerns of today.
> Control the controllable.
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Neither the controlables were controlled----nor the language has changed---.
> 
> Alqaeda coming down the slopes of hindu kush was controllable in 2002--.
> 
> You traine them---you should take care of them---pak regarding Bin Laden to U S----you trained the mujahideen---they are your problem---pak to U S---.
> 
> That is what those quotes refer to,. Thanks.

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## DANGER-ZONE

*1 of 3 brand new F16's Block 52 which landed at Lajes on their delivery flight to the Pakistan Air Force!!*

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## nightcrawler

self delete


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## Tehmasib

Pakistans Falcons to Fly Five New Recce Pods
January 21, 2011


Goodrich DB-110 EO/IR reconnaissance pod

Goodrich Corporation has been awarded a US$72 million contract to equip Lockheed-Martin F-16 fighters of the Pakistan Air Force with five DB-110 dual-band (visual/IR) reconnaissance pods. The systems will be delivered with two fixed ground stations and one mobile ground station, each equipped with one datalink receiving system (a total of four ground receiving datalinks will be delivered).

The Pakistan Air Force plans to augment the new capability by establishing a reconnaissance fusion center, the current contract funds the initial study of such facility to be provided by Goodrich. The U.S. Air Force is assigning a private U.S. company to train Pakistani operators and technicians in supporting the new systems.

The Pakistani air force is already operating two similar recce pods, which will now be modified with suitable datalinks to match the new ground stations. According to the U.S. Defense Security Cooperation Agency ex-U.S. Air Force F-16A/B fighters transferred to the Pakistani Air Force in 2008 were prepared to operate reconnaissance pods. No such capability was mentioned for the new F-16 Block 52 aircraft although it is likely that the pods will also be employed by these fighters.

The DB-110 operates autonomously on the F-16, controlled by the pods reconnaissance management system. Imagery can be viewed on the F-16s cockpit video display, enabling the pilot to verify targets and conduct tasks such as battle damage assessment. The real-time display also gives the pilot or aircrew more flexibility selecting alternate route to a selected target or seeking out targets of opportunity.

Goodrichs DB-110 pod has become a standard reconnaissance pod for the F-16, included in almost every new sales package of this aircraft. The pod is operational with the Polish and Hellenic NATO Air Forces, Recent sales were authorized for the UAE, Egypt, Morocco, Pakistan and Oman. The pod is also operated in its original Raptor configuration, on Tornado GR4 and Japanese P-3C maritime patrol aircraft. Saudi Arabia has also been offered 10 DB-110 pods, yet to be integrated on their F-15SA Eagle as part of the latest multi-billion shopping spree of U.S. arms.

More recently the DB-110 system has also been modified to operate on unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV) such as the Reaper  demonstrating the capability to operate simultaneously with other UAV sensor systems, including full motion video short range imaging payloads, radars and weapons.


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## Tehmasib

A large-scale market of possibly a thousand or more early General Dynamics F-16A/Bs is being sought by the FIAR subsidiary of Galileo Avionica with its new Grifo 2000 fire-control radar, on show at Asian Aerospace for the first time. FIAR's new Grifo has been developed from a long line of low-cost high-capability pulse-Doppler Grifo variants since the mid-1980s. Their modular design simplified systems integration, and over 350 Grifos have been sold for retrofit upgrades of such aircraft as Dassault Mirage IIIs, Northrop F-5Es, and Chengdu F-7Ps. They have also been sold for new aircraft installations, as in the Czech air force's Aero L-159.

Grifo 2000 has been specifically designed and tailored to replace the original APG-66 radar in F-16A/Bs, with minimum modifications. This obviates changes in radome shape and size, as well as interfaces, and component stowage space, while incorporating state-of-the-art technologies and performance. Full interchangeability and pin-to-pin compatibility with the APG-66 radar at LRU level is ensured by the Grifo 2000's similar weight, cooling system and cockpit controls.

New features include a powerful 500 watt transmitter to increase detection ranges, four receiver/processor channels, an open architecture 25-mode processor, and high-resolution spotlight synthetic aperture radar. Grifo 2000 also incorporates enhanced air-to-air track-while-scan through 60 degrees each way in azimuth and elevation,, and modern beyond-visual-range AAM capabilities, plus sensor fusion with infra-red search and track systems. It has also been designed with easy transition to an electronic scanning antenna in mind.

Flight development of the Grifo 2000 is planned to start in an F-16 before the year-end, in response to USAF interest in a low-cost high-performance radar to equip its Fighting Falcons for adversary training. Singapore's F-16A/Bs are also an early target for Grifo 2000 marketing, as an option for STAe's Falcon One upgrade proposals, being made jointly with BAE Systems, and exhibited at Asian Aerospace. The related Grifo 7MG is also a candidate to equip the Pakistan air force's new cranked-wing F-7MPs, while FIAR is offering Grifo Super 7 and MK II developments of the same radar to China for possible installation in AF/PLA J-7E, J-8 and J-10 combat aircraft


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## air marshal

*27 Jan 1983 
Maiden Flight of the first of 20 Dutch F-16A(R) aircraft equiped with the Orpheus Recce pod.*


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## Silk

Tehmasib said:


> A large-scale market of possibly a thousand or more early General Dynamics F-16A/Bs is being sought by the FIAR subsidiary of Galileo Avionica with its new Grifo 2000 fire-control radar, on show at Asian Aerospace for the first time. FIAR's new Grifo has been developed from a long line of low-cost high-capability pulse-Doppler Grifo variants since the mid-1980s. Their modular design simplified systems integration, and over 350 Grifos have been sold for retrofit upgrades of such aircraft as Dassault Mirage IIIs, Northrop F-5Es, and Chengdu F-7Ps. They have also been sold for new aircraft installations, as in the Czech air force's Aero L-159.
> 
> Grifo 2000 has been specifically designed and tailored to replace the original APG-66 radar in F-16A/Bs, with minimum modifications. This obviates changes in radome shape and size, as well as interfaces, and component stowage space, while incorporating state-of-the-art technologies and performance. Full interchangeability and pin-to-pin compatibility with the APG-66 radar at LRU level is ensured by the Grifo 2000's similar weight, cooling system and cockpit controls.
> 
> New features include a powerful 500 watt transmitter to increase detection ranges, four receiver/processor channels, an open architecture 25-mode processor, and high-resolution spotlight synthetic aperture radar. Grifo 2000 also incorporates enhanced air-to-air track-while-scan through 60 degrees each way in azimuth and elevation,, and modern beyond-visual-range AAM capabilities, plus sensor fusion with infra-red search and track systems. It has also been designed with easy transition to an electronic scanning antenna in mind.
> 
> Flight development of the Grifo 2000 is planned to start in an F-16 before the year-end, in response to USAF interest in a low-cost high-performance radar to equip its Fighting Falcons for adversary training. Singapore's F-16A/Bs are also an early target for Grifo 2000 marketing, as an option for STAe's Falcon One upgrade proposals, being made jointly with BAE Systems, and exhibited at Asian Aerospace. The related Grifo 7MG is also a candidate to equip the Pakistan air force's new cranked-wing F-7MPs, while FIAR is offering Grifo Super 7 and MK II developments of the same radar to China for possible installation in AF/PLA J-7E, J-8 and J-10 combat aircraft



The USA will not allow the FIAR module in their F16. Bad investment. Only Israel is allowed to do that sofar. And even the Israeli f16 cockpit upgrade was not allowed to be exported. Hence we rather go for JF17 with Chinese equipment where we have the right to do what we want.


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## DANGER-ZONE

*Portugal, August 30, 2010: Departing for the second test flight after receiving a new engine at Lajes! *

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## ynmian

danger-zone said:


> *Portugal, August 30, 2010: Departing for the second test flight after receiving a new engine at Lajes! *



is that pic during red flag journey, what happened to its original engine, broke down?

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## fatman17

ynmian said:


> is that pic during red flag journey, what happened to its original engine, broke down?



siht happens!

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## ynmian

fatman17 said:


> siht happens!



what do u mean


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## Areesh

ynmian said:


> what do u mean



That means sh!t happens.

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## Mani2020

self-deleted


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## DANGER-ZONE

Mani2020 said:


> *Courtesy Najam Khan*



invisible, new stealth technology 

Bro you cant host Pakdef.info's image here...try another source


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## umair86pk

marvelous..........!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

if the USAF, for whatever reason, dismissed this Falcon from service we should try to get it for some spares!


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## DANGER-ZONE

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> if the USAF, for whatever reason, dismissed this Falcon from service we should try to get it for some spares!
> 
> 
> YouTube - F-16 Tipped Over Accident



lolz.. B-1 just blew it off 
but will not be coming to Pakistan any way.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

The U.S.-Pakistan F-16 Fiasco: The Half You Don&#039;t Hear About -- By C. Christine Fair | The AfPak Channel



> At a recent event on Pakistan co-sponsored by Brookings and the U.S. Institute of Peace, several panelists cogently stressed the need for greater transparency on the parts of Washington and Islamabad as a necessary step in forging better relations.
> 
> Inevitably, the sad story of Pakistan's F-16s emerged during a panel discussion. In the early 1980s, the United States agreed to sell Pakistan F-16 fighter jets. This decision was taken when the United States worked closely with Pakistan to repel the Soviets from Afghanistan. The F-16 was the most important air platform in Pakistan's air force and it was the most likely delivery vehicle of a nuclear weapon.
> 
> When nuclear proliferation-related sanctions (under the Pressler Amendment) came into force in 1990, the U.S. government cancelled the sales of several F-16s. Pakistanis routinely cite this as hard evidence of American perfidy to underscore the point that Washington is not a trustworthy ally.
> 
> With the lapse of time, many American and Pakistani interlocutors alike rehearse redacted variants of this sordid affair for various purposes. But I was dismayed when a U.S. official (speaking in his personal capacity) did so at the U.S. Institute of Peace event.
> 
> He stressed, with suitable outrage, that the United States unfairly deprived Pakistan of the F-16s it purchased, demurred from reimbursing Pakistan when sanctions precluded delivery, and even charged Pakistan for the storage fees while the United States sought a third-party buyer for the planes.
> 
> This particular individual has a long-standing relationship with South Asia and extensive experience in the region, which made the stylized telling all the more troublesome.
> 
> This narrative likely appealed to recreational critics of Washington and its serially failed engagements with Islamabad. But it is a disturbing and incomplete re-telling at the F-16 fiasco, the rehearsal of which does little to advance U.S.-Pakistan relations.
> 
> Better relations will require both Washington and Pakistan to confront the edifice of ossified fictions that surround and ultimately undermine this complex and strained relationship. Washington needs to aggressively combat the historical untruths that have become legendary fact as vigorously as it needs to understand the Pakistan that is, not the Pakistan it might want to be.
> 
> *The trust deficit and its deceits *
> 
> Pakistanis often complain that the United States is a disloyal ally, using Pakistan for its purposes, then abandoning it when expedient.
> 
> They lament that the United States absconded from the region when the Soviets left Afghanistan, leaving Pakistan to contend with legions of dangerous mujahideen and proliferating narcotics and small arms traffic with its own meager resources. This gives rise to a current chorus of Pakistanis who opine woefully that the United States will abandon Pakistan again when Washington's security interests change.
> 
> In turn, this motivates proponents of U.S.-Pakistan relations to promise ever-more allurements to demonstrate that "this time," America will not abandon Pakistan.
> 
> Of course, Pakistan's complaints are not entirely unfounded: the United States did abandon the region once the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan in 1989. Pakistanis, however, never acknowledge the enormous benefits that the country derived from its partnership with the Americans during the 1980s.
> 
> Between 1979 and 1989 Pakistan received $5.6 billion (in constant 2009 dollars) in total aid, of which $3.5 billion was military assistance.) During this period, Pakistan developed its nuclear weapons program without penalty until 1990 while receiving enormous financial and military support from the U.S., which allowed Pakistan to improve its capabilities to fight India.
> 
> Most frustrating is Pakistan's refusal to acknowledge its own role in undermining its security by backing various Islamist militant groups in Afghanistan throughout the 1990s, including the Taliban. (Pakistanis often claim erroneously that the CIA created the Taliban.)
> 
> Pakistan also complains that it has been punished disproportionately relative to India for its nuclear weapons program. Pakistan correctly notes that India was the first to proliferate in South Asia with its first explosion of a nuclear device in May 1974 (Pokhran I).
> 
> As the revisionist and smaller state, Pakistan could hardly resist the compulsion to acquire nuclear weapons. The bitterest invective is reserved for the 1985 Pressler Amendment, which many Pakistanis wrongfully claim was written to punish Islamabad for its nuclear program.
> 
> Contrary to Pakistanis' popular perceptions, U.S. and international nonproliferation efforts in South Asia were precipitated by India's 1974 nuclear test as well as misgivings about the Ford administration's response to India's abuse of Canadian- and U.S.-supplied civilian nuclear assistance. And, of course, the U.S. Congress was increasingly discomfited about Pakistan's acquisitions of nuclear items abroad.
> 
> In response to these varied concerns, the U.S. Congress passed two nonproliferation amendments to the 1961 Foreign Assistance Act (FAA): the 1976 Symington Amendment and the 1977 Glenn Amendment. Together, they prohibit U.S. military and economic assistance to countries that reject full-scope International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) safeguards for all nuclear facilities and materials; transfer, acquire, deliver, or receive nuclear reprocessing or enrichment technology; or explode or transfer a nuclear device. Congress, wary of Indian and Pakistani intentions, passed the Nuclear Nonproliferation Act (NNPA) of 1978 that prohibited the sale of U.S. uranium fuel to countries that refuse "full-scope" IAEA safeguards and inspections.
> 
> "Our security policy cannot be dictated by our nonproliferation policy.''
> 
> After the 1979 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Washington chose to subordinate its nonproliferation policies to other regional interests. According to Steve Coll, then-national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski told American president Jimmy Carter that Washington needs to secure Pakistan's support to oust the Soviets and that this will "require... more guarantees to [Pakistan], more arms aid, and, alas, a decision that our security policy cannot be dictated by our nonproliferation policy."
> 
> Despite full knowledge of Pakistan's nuclear program, Congress added Section 620E to the FAA, which granted the president a qualified authority to waive sanctions for six years, allowing the United States to fund and equip Pakistan for the anti-Soviet jihad. Congress next appropriated annual funds for a six-year program of economic and military aid that totaled $3.2 billion. Despite continued warnings from the U.S. about its nuclear program, Pakistan continued developing a weapons capability. Pakistan's military dictator, Zia ul Haq, asserted that it was Pakistan's right to do so.
> 
> In 1985, the Pressler Amendment was passed, making U.S. assistance to Pakistan conditional on an annual presidential assessment and certification that Pakistan did not have nuclear weapons.
> 
> But this legislation was not punitive as Pakistanis claim and as some historically ill-informed American commentators lament. Rather, the amendment allowed the United States to continue providing assistance to Pakistan even though other parts of the U.S. government increasingly believed that Pakistan had crossed the nuclear threshold, meriting sanctions under various U.S. laws.
> 
> Nor was Pakistan a passive observer of this congressional activity.
> 
> Husain Haqqani, now Pakistan's ambassador to the United States, explained in 2007 that the Pressler Amendment was passed with the active involvement of Pakistan's foreign office, which was keen to resolve the emergent strategic impasse over competing U.S. nonproliferation and regional objectives on one hand and Pakistan's resolute intentions to acquire nuclear weapons on the other. He described it as a victory for Pakistan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs. It was.
> 
> In 1990, when U.S. interests in the region lapsed after the Soviet Union left Afghanistan, President George H. Bush declined to certify Pakistan, and the sanctions came into force.
> 
> However this was not a bolt out of the blue. The U.S. ambassador to Pakistan, Ambassador Robert Oakley repeatedly made Pakistani leadership aware of the inevitable consequences of proliferation. Pakistan's leadership made a calculated gamble.
> 
> This brings us back to the F-16s debacle. When the Pressler sanctions came into force, Pakistan was precluded from taking possession of 28 F-16s for which it had made payments until 1993, some three years after the sanctions commenced.
> 
> Pakistan paid the Lockheed Corp. $658 million for the planes, and some reports suggest that Pakistan continued making payments based on Pentagon assurances that continued payments would ensure eventual delivery.
> 
> Pakistan did not get the planes and was assessed storage and maintenance costs of $50,000 per month for the planes that sat, becoming ever more obsolete, in the Arizona desert. This account is telling: Pakistan preferred to heed the roseate advice of the Pentagon over the clear lines of U.S. law.
> 
> Under threat of a Pakistani lawsuit, U.S. president Bill Clinton resolved the issue in late 1998.
> 
> Pakistan received $464 million, mostly in cash, which was the remaining amount of the claim. Clinton also agreed to send Pakistan an additional $60 million worth of wheat. (New Zealand ultimately purchased the F-16s on a 10-year lease-purchase deal that totaled $105 million.)
> 
> Long before President George W. Bush promised to resume sales to Pakistan in 2005 as a good faith effort to restore confidence in the United States, the F-16 issue had been resolved.
> 
> *Accepting responsibility *
> 
> While Pakistanis prefer to characterize the F-16 fiasco as inherently unfair, the simple fact is that Pakistan's leadership made a strategic choice to develop nuclear weapons at the expense of taking ownership of the fleet of F-16s. Pakistan's leadership understood the U.S. law and its likely consequences. Pakistanis need to hold their leadership to account rather than blithely blaming Washington.
> 
> Americans also have to take responsibility. When U.S. officials rehearse only part of this story, it undermines all efforts to achieve a working bilateral relationship that is based on facts rather than fiction.
> 
> If the United States and Washington can ever re-optimize their bilateral relationship, both will have to make a concerted effort to resist rehearsing past fictions and creating new ones. Sensationalized half-truths percolate through our respective societies, foster outrage and misunderstanding, and create popular resistance to a relationship that is critical to the security interests of both states.
> 
> C. Christine Fair is an assistant professor at Georgetown University


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## MJaa

*
US to deliver 18th F-16 after 5 years to Pakistan air force*


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## Manticore

PAF F-16D with CFT

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## Mani2020

MJaa said:


> *
> US to deliver 18th F-16 after 5 years to Pakistan air force*


 
Poor bit of reporting, i doubt even he knows something about aviation.

Firstly he is mixing block D with Block B ,secondly he is confusing people by saying "US has also taken away 2 old F-16's " without mentioning the reason thus creating doubts in lay man's mind ,thirdly he is saying India has ordered 100 of same aircraft (f-16's)


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## sanasahil

I read in news papers jets are now getting upgraded in turkey, why bother about usa now, many think that usa charges more then market and deal with racism in mind when its pakistan.


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## Mani2020

sanasahil said:


> I read in news papers jets are now getting upgraded in turkey, why bother about usa now, many think that usa charges more then market and deal with racism in mind when its pakistan.


 
Still the MLU kits are brought from USA, Also the TAI is upgrading PAF f-16's under license from US


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## ynmian

Block 50 and 52 are same except that 52 has PW engine right?

if that is correct then why we say that we have block 50/52 we should say we have F-16 Block 52 only.


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## Mani2020

ynmian said:


> Block 50 and 52 are same except that 52 has PW engine right?
> 
> if that is correct then why we say that we have block 50/52 we should say we have F-16 Block 52 only.


 
We neither have block50 nor block 52 rather we have block 52+ .People here mostly don't know the difference b/w block 52 and 52+ so they take both as same and generally mention simple 52 rather mentioning 52+

Block 52+ has various differences when compared to block 52

Like the major differences are block 52+ have CFT's ,dorsal spine compartment ,APG 68 (V9) radar, On-board oxygen generation system and Joint Helmet mounted sight (JHMS)

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## Silk

50 and 52 is the type of engine (P&W or GE). The aircraft are the same. The plus is for the extra's mentioned above.


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## Stealth_fighter

pakistan doesnt have cft fitted f-16's


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

well this pic shows that they have............................


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## Silk

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> well this pic shows that they have............................


 
Sorry but is is a CG and not a real pic. They will get them but we need to see how the USA handles the case with the so called diplomatic consultant that shot two motorcyclist in the back and called it a robbery.


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## Mani2020

Stealth_fighter said:


> pakistan doesnt have cft fitted f-16's


 
PAF have block 52+ so CFT's are necessary part of blk 52+ untill PAF itself rejects it. 

I f we have not seen CFT's it doesnot mean that we don't have them .we will surely see them in future


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## dbc

Here is a energy maneuverability diagram for the F-16 Block 52. The graphic is easy to interpret, and highlights the F-16 Block 52's sweet spot at zero drag index (no external stores).

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## Mani2020

Interesting news coming out form Munir


According to latest info* PAF is going to visit turkey with k8, f16 and jf17*. I am looking forward to june! Certainly if they are doing the jf17 display...

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## DANGER-ZONE

^ but who is munir ?


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## Silk

I just checked it here. According to one of the best sites in the world it is indeed true. Here copy paste from that forum. Do not know whether it is ok to link the sites.

>>>Hello everybody,

Sorry to keep you waiting for a while, but please understand that it's the first time we'll have real spotterdays in Turkiye and we do our very best to create some fantastic arrangements for all our guests.

We have taken all ideas & suggestions send to us in account and for sure you will be very happy with the result.

In this post I am pleased to give you a first update on participants;

Turkish Airforce:

As mentioned before all types of the large inventory will be present at Izmir. There will be a lot of T-37 & T-38 action as well, as I understood this was high on the wishlist of many spotters. You will see some of the brand new aircraft such as the KT-1 and Boeing Wedgetail.

USA:
Thunderbirds

Poland:
Orlik Team ( 9 x PZL-130 )

Croatia:
Wings of Storm ( 6 x PC-9 )

United Kingdom:
Red Arrows

Romania:
C-27, 2x IAR-99

Slovakia:
An-26, Mig-29

Pakistan:
F-16, K-8, JF-17 

More updates will follow after the EAC convention in two weeks.

Greetz, Eric

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## Imran Khan

link please dear


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## Mani2020

danger-zone said:


> ^ but who is munir ?


 
He is an informative person. Same guy along with Eagle Hannan who provided info regarding jf-17 block 2 which i posted in one of my threads named "Tracking jf-17 information post Zuhai Airshow"


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## drunken-monke

Kharian_Beast said:


> The Chinese have SU30MK2 in their inventory but did not buy a lot of them because they are the basis for their domestic built J11 variants. The base J11 they have is based on the SU27SK. For the J11B, it is still the SU27 airframe but with redesigned cockpit and other advancements such as avionics and active radar guided SMRAAM and MRAAM missiles borrowed from the SU30MK's. J11B can also engage up to 6 targets and has a similar engine to the Russian AL31F except it is made in China. The only thing that is missing is TVC I believe, which may be added to J11B "block 2".
> Anyone with better information please do not hesitate to clarify for us, shukria.


 Dear Kharian Beast,
In flying and capability J 11 is gud, I agree, but the problem it has with its Engines.. It has a very short life, more over current engines (whether they are enough capapble) to power such a hughe plan??
Regards


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## Kompromat

Mani - It means JF-17s would be part of this year's Anatolian Eagle - good going. !


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## Mani2020

Black Blood said:


> Mani - It means JF-17s would be part of this year's Anatolian Eagle - good going. !


 
yes BB .its indeed a good sign ,lets see wat its really upto


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## air marshal

*BOMBS AWAY: The sketch displays an F-16 dropping bombs on a target.*


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## air marshal

*BUSY DAY AT SARGODHA: The sketch shows an Airman signalling an F-16 from No. 9 squadron ready to take-off.*


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## air marshal

*F-16 LEAVES FOR RED FLAG: PAF F-16s from the No. 9 squadron leave for Red Flag Exercise 2010 at Nellis AFB Nevada USA.*


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## air marshal

*FALCON AT FULL THROTTLE: The F-16 boosts forward with its afterburners activated displaying a beautiful pattern behind.*


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## air marshal

*MIGHTY WARRIORS: The sketch shows an F-16 pilot as he gazes towards his machine.*

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## Windjammer



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## CallsignAlzaeem

I dont know how many times this question has been asked but as i am new in here if somebody can please tell me whether we have got CFTs for our block 52+ and if somebody knows which squadron has got these new F-16s Griffins,Arrows or a new squadron has been made for them?


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## Windjammer

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> I dont know how many times this question has been asked but as i am new in here if somebody can please tell me whether we have got CFTs for our block 52+ and if somebody knows which squadron has got these new F-16s Griffins,Arrows or a new squadron has been made for them?


 
Not only the new F-16s are equipped with the CFTs, but the older aircraft will also be capable to deploy these tanks after upgrade.
Next month, No.5 Squadron (Falcons), a former Mirage unit, will stand up equipped with the Block-52s.
You may find this thread interesting.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/92338-paf-pioneered-cft.html

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## CallsignAlzaeem

Jazak Allah


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## Mani2020

Windjammer said:


> Not only the new F-16s are equipped with the CFTs, *but the older aircraft will also be capable to deploy these tanks after upgrade.*
> Next month, No.5 Squadron (Falcons), a former Mirage unit, will stand up equipped with the Block-52s.
> You may find this thread interesting.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/92338-paf-pioneered-cft.html


 
No the old one will not be equipped with CFT's. CFT's are not a part of MLU also according to latest AFM this is not going to be the case


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## Silk

Only the block52+ can have CFT. You cannot just put them up to do the job. There is a big structural modifcation and it is not an option. Let me put it different. If it was possible then there would be many nations having it already. I doubt the PAF is the first to have it as an upgrade.


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## Windjammer

Mani2020 said:


> No the old one will not be equipped with CFT's. CFT's are not a part of MLU also according to latest AFM this is not going to be the case



As they say in Pakistan, "Sir Yea Clerical ghalti thi" 
Indeed, i misunderstood the disclosure, the older F-16 will be plumbed to have the in-flight refueling facility installed during the MLU.


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## Silk

Windjammer said:


> As they say in Pakistan, "Sir Yea Clerical ghalti thi"
> Indeed, i misunderstood the disclosure, the older F-16 will be plumbed to have the in-flight refueling facility installed during the MLU.


 
Every f16 has standard ifr. It cost you more to get it removed. Maybe you should read the comment of our former ACM who told in an interview (published in AFM) that the only reason it was not used by PAF in the beginning cause they had no checked it. So a simple and direct question. Where did you get your data sir?

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## F86 Saber

Silk said:


> Every f16 has standard ifr. It cost you more to get it removed. Maybe you should read the comment of our former ACM who told in an interview (published in AFM) that the only reason it was not used by PAF in the beginning cause they had no checked it. So a simple and direct question. Where did you get your data sir?


 
Yes you are right because if i remember correctly the vipers that went for red flag were refueled mid air twice on the route.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

In our theatre of affairs---why do we need CFT----. It may only be used for certain special needs missions---but on regular basis----our geography is not such that cft is needed----the BLK 52 can use cft and that number is enough for any special strike needs----. CFT has to have a purpose and its usage has to have need for all the F 16's to have it-----


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## Mani2020

F86 Saber said:


> Yes you are right because if i remember correctly the vipers that went for red flag were refueled mid air twice on the route.


 
Yes ,the current refueling system f-16's have is boom refueling system not a Probe and Drogue one .So the f-16's can't be refueled by il-78 MRTT or for that matter any other aircraft equipped with probe and drogue system .Only tankers which have boom operating system can refuel F-16's .Like KC-135

Here is the boom refueler












And this one drogue and probe ,the one we also have in il-78 MRTT

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## Windjammer

Silk said:


> Every f16 has standard ifr. It cost you more to get it removed. Maybe you should read the comment of our former ACM who told in an interview (published in AFM) that the only reason it was not used by PAF in the beginning cause they had no checked it. So a simple and direct question. Where did you get your data sir?


 Before you question the source of my information, some home work is in place as the same magazine (AFM) covered the exercise Antonio Eagle, in which the PAF deployed it's F-16s for the first time. However to reach Turkey, the PAF aircraft had to make several stop overs since they didn't incorporate IFR capability. According to the then ACM, the plumbing of such facility was time consuming hence the refueling stops were considered as the convenient option. The aircraft involved were the first batch of "A" & "B" models received in the 80s, which are now going through the MLU process also incorporating the IFR capability. The F-16s that participated in the Red Flag were the once embargoed machines, released within the last five years under the code of "Zesty". Before being dispatched, these aircrafts received some upgrades in US, hence they were also capable of conducting IFR during the exercise. As for the claim, that the aircraft were not checked, I find that incredible, since the very first batch of F-16s that landed in Saudia to be handed over to Pakistan, were refused by the PAF. After inspection, the Pakistani authorities discovered that the aircraft, instead of the ANPG-66, incorporated an inferior radar system. However after assurances by the US, the F-16s were eventually flown into Pakistan.


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## SQ8

The issue of plumbing had more to do with being disused rather than being disabled..
The USAF never authorized a refueler.. so the PAF's receptacle has been largely sealed...and the plumbing that went into those tanks neglected compared to the other systems.
On the issue of the APG-66.. it also had to do with the Saudi's being a little hyped about the radars on their F-15's having several components with name tags scratched out..
that had to do with those components being made in Israel.. which the Americans thought best to omit.. rather than risk an issue..
PAF F-16's.. were actually tricked out .. better than most Block 15's operated by other airforces..

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## Donatello

z9-ec said:


> Lockheed to supply F-16, C-130, P 3 Orion to Pakistan
> 
> KARACHI, Nov 26 (APP) - Lockheed Martin, USA will supply upgraded F-16 jets, C-130 transport planes and P 3 Orion surveillance aircraft to Pakistan armed forces. This was stated by President Lockheed Martin, Middle East and Africa, Gen (rtd) James Jamerson in an interview here Wednesday.
> 
> To a question, he said that he had meetings with top officials of Ministry of Defence, Chief of Naval Staff and Air Chief of Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> I have discussed with the Naval Chief the Orion aircraft up-gradation project, he said mentioning that Orion aircraft were being upgraded for Pakistan Navy in the United States and they will soon come to Pakistan.
> 
> *Regarding the supply of F-16 jets, he said that these fighters were upgraded and overhauled in Pakistan as well as in USA.
> 
> We are also supplying equipment and parts to Pakistan for F-16s overhauled in Pakistan. Similarly, we are also upgrading F-16s in USA for supply to Pakistan, said the Lockheed Martin President.
> *
> James said that his company was also upgrading a number of C-130 for Pakistan Air Force in USA.
> 
> *He did not mention the exact number of these jets and aircraft saying the number was significant.*


 


This is absolutely pointless news.

I mean, there is a significant difference between upgrading F-16s and overhauling them. Pakistan has been overhauling them since a long time....even the PW F-100 engines.

Upgrading we don't know. It would have been better had they told if F-16s are being upgraded in Pakistan or not.

Because all P3-Cs went to USA and F-16s to Turkey for upgrades.


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## Stealth

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In our theatre of affairs---why do we need CFT----. It may only be used for certain special needs missions---but on regular basis----our geography is not such that cft is needed----the BLK 52 can use cft and that number is enough for any special strike needs----. CFT has to have a purpose and its usage has to have need for all the F 16's to have it-----


 
you buy fighters not for nationwide patrolling you buy fighter jets for WAR.... so CFT are important!


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## MastanKhan

Stealth said:


> you buy fighters not for nationwide patrolling you buy fighter jets for WAR.... so CFT are important!


 
Hi,

Well---let's talk---share with me why we need cft for so many of them other than the blk 52's.


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## Windjammer

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Well---let's talk---share with me why we need cft for so many of them other than the blk 52's.


Walikum- Hi,... My dear, as it transpires, only the Block-52s are equipped with the CFTs.

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## Kompromat

Look at this boys.







Check out more comments on this article:

Guest-Blogger Saurabh Joshi Describes His Maiden Flight on the F-16 at Aero India - India Real Time - WSJ


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## Donatello

This thread is about Pakistan's F-16s.

Where the heck did Su 30, 27 and J-11 come in from?
Huh?


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## fatman17

*Try to keep the number of your landings equal to the number of your takeoffs. 
-- Instruction manual *


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## CallsignAlzaeem

Windjammer said:


> Walikum- Hi,... My dear, as it transpires, only the Block-52s are equipped with the CFTs.


 
Sir i have got a picture of our F-16 block 52 with CFT from somewhere on fb and i have uploaded it on here do check it out


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## Bratva

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> Sir i have got a picture of our F-16 block 52 with CFT from somewhere on fb and i have uploaded it on here do check it out


 
Where is Pic Mate?


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## @nline

Pak Fyzaia The Great.


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## raazh

I saw this on Iran Defence. Net - Posted by Member "Khan"

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## Stealth_fighter

is the other one is f-15?


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## Fieldmarshal

It is a mig-29


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## ANG

Hi, I personally think this is a stupid move by the PAF. They are buying sanction prone aircraft!

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/asd/2011/03/01/01.xml&headline=Pakistan Air Chief Outlines Procurement Plans

Pakistan Air Chief Outlines Procurement Plans
Mar 1, 2011 
By Leithen Francis 

MELBOURNE, Australia &#8212; Pakistan is in negotiations with the U.S. to get more Lockheed Martin F-16s over and above what it already has on order, while at the same time it develops its defense manufacturing capability to reduce its reliance on the U.S.

&#8220;We have plans to have more F-16s and are negotiating with the U.S. government for more,&#8221; says Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleman, the Pakistani air force chief of air staff. Rao spoke to Aviation Week here, where he was attending an air chiefs&#8217; conference.

When asked how many more aircraft Pakistan wants, Rao declines to specify the number on the grounds that &#8220;we are still in the process of negotiations.&#8221; &#8220;It depends in what form and the time frame,&#8221; he adds.

In 2006 the U.S. Congress agreed to give Pakistan 28 F-16C/Ds under an excess-defense articles scheme. Pakistan recently received the first 14, but has yet to get the others. Rao says it is unclear when these aircraft will arrive and it is part of the current negotiations.

Pakistan has a total of 63 F-16s, of which 45 are A/Bs and 18 are C/Ds. Rao says all the A/Bs are to undergo a midlife upgrade and become C/D aircraft &#8220;close to block 50&#8221; standard. The first three A/Bs are now undergoing the upgrade at Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). &#8220;In 2013-2014 all of the A/Bs will have been upgraded to C/Ds.&#8221; He also says four other F-16s were sent to the U.S. for technical verification inspections so the upgrade kits could be developed that TAI will install.

While Pakistan is an ally of the U.S., it is also an ally of China. Pakistan, for example, is producing JF-17 fighters at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in Kamra, a city in northern Pakistan. The JF-17 is a fighter jointly developed by China and Pakistan.

Rao says since becoming chief of air staff, he has made a concerted effort to increase the manufacturing capability of Pakistan&#8217;s defense industry. This is important because the country has in the past been subject to sanctions and embargoes, including by the U.S. over its nuclear weapons efforts.

Rao says Pakistan will have the second squadron of JF-17s enter operation at the end of March while simultaneously phasing out all of its Nanchang A-5s. The A-5 is a ground attack aircraft from China that was first produced in 1969.

&#8220;As for the Chengdu F-7s and Dassault Mirages, we will phase these out as we get JF-17s,&#8221; Rao says. &#8220;Some of Pakistan&#8217;s Mirages are the oldest in the world,&#8221; he says, adding that some were built in 1967. Phasing out the older Mirages is a top priority. The Mirages are difficult and costly to maintain because no one is producing spare parts for these aircraft anymore, he says. &#8220;We are getting secondhand parts, but we don&#8217;t know the history of these spare parts we are getting. It&#8217;s a flight safety issue and a nightmare for me,&#8221; he adds.

When asked about datalinks that could connect the F-16s to the JF-17s, Rao says Pakistan is working to develop its own solution. &#8220;We have Link 16 on the F-16s. We will not fiddle with Link 16 and not have direct linkages [between the JF-17s] with the F-16. However, we are trying to develop our own tactical datalink.&#8221; It will send information from the JF-17 to a ground station where there will be an interface, he says, adding there will be a short delay, and then the information will be sent to the F-16s.

Like with its fighters, Pakistan also has different types of airborne early warning and control aircraft. The country has three Saab Erieye aircraft and will receive its fourth by midyear, Rao says. This is its last Saab Erieye on order. Pakistan will also receive in the middle of the year its first Shaanxi ZDK-03. Pakistan has four on order, and the first rolled out of the Shaanxi Aircraft factory in November. But Rao says China is still busy installing the equipment and doing the necessary upgrades.

Another major requirement that Pakistan has is for UAVs. It already has Italian Selex Galileo Falco UAVs, and Rao says Pakistan has reached an agreement with the company whereby some Falcos will be made in Pakistan for the local market and export. Production will start in Pakistan this year, he says. In the past Pakistan reportedly wanted to have the Falco armed, a request that Italy rejected. Rao says the UAVs made in Pakistan will carry no weapons and will be for reconnaissance and surveillance, mostly of areas where insurgents and terrorists may be hiding.

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## John Doe

Black Blood said:


> Look at this boys.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check out more comments on this article:
> 
> Guest-Blogger Saurabh Joshi Describes His Maiden Flight on the F-16 at Aero India - India Real Time - WSJ


 
Excellent find! From the PAF's viewpoint , I thought that this was important:

"......made it a point to explain (even though I hadn&#8217;t asked) that the AESA radar which would be on the F-16 IN Super Viper couldn&#8217;t be retrofitted on to the Block 50 F-16, which is the type operated by Pakistan. This might have been meant to reassure us that India would get technology superior to that supplied to Pakistan and that it didn&#8217;t matter that Pakistan was receiving F-16s too."


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## SQ8

Its quite logical.. 
Would you ever sell somebody anything that is not better than what their perceived primary threat already has.


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## Tehmasib

MELBOURNE: Pakistan is in negotiations with the U.S. to get more Lockheed Martin F-16s over and above what it already has on order, while at the same time it develops its defense manufacturing capability to reduce its reliance on the U.S.

We have plans to have more F-16s and are negotiating with the U.S. government for more, says Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleman, the Pakistani air force chief of air staff. Rao spoke to Aviation Week here, where he was attending an air chiefs conference.

When asked how many more aircraft Pakistan wants, Rao declines to specify the number on the grounds that we are still in the process of negotiations. It depends in what form and the time frame, he adds.

In 2006 the U.S. Congress agreed to give Pakistan 28 F-16C/Ds under an excess-defense articles scheme. Pakistan recently received the first 14, but has yet to get the others. Rao says it is unclear when these aircraft will arrive and it is part of the current negotiations.

Pakistan has a total of 63 F-16s, of which 45 are A/Bs and 18 are C/Ds. Rao says all the A/Bs are to undergo a midlife upgrade and become C/D aircraft close to block 50 standard. The first three A/Bs are now undergoing the upgrade at Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). In 2013-2014 all of the A/Bs will have been upgraded to C/Ds. He also says four other F-16s were sent to the U.S. for technical verification inspections so the upgrade kits could be developed that TAI will install.

While Pakistan is an ally of the U.S., it is also an ally of China. Pakistan, for example, is producing JF-17 fighters at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in Kamra, a city in northern Pakistan. The JF-17 is a fighter jointly developed by China and Pakistan.

Rao says since becoming chief of air staff, he has made a concerted effort to increase the manufacturing capability of Pakistans defense industry. This is important because the country has in the past been subject to sanctions and embargoes, including by the U.S. over its nuclear weapons efforts.

Rao says Pakistan will have the second squadron of JF-17s enter operation at the end of March while simultaneously phasing out all of its Nanchang A-5s. The A-5 is a ground attack aircraft from China that was first produced in 1969.

As for the Chengdu F-7s and Dassault Mirages, we will phase these out as we get JF-17s, Rao says. Some of Pakistans Mirages are the oldest in the world, he says, adding that some were built in 1967. Phasing out the older Mirages is a top priority. The Mirages are difficult and costly to maintain because no one is producing spare parts for these aircraft anymore, he says. We are getting secondhand parts, but we dont know the history of these spare parts we are getting. Its a flight safety issue and a nightmare for me, he adds.

When asked about datalinks that could connect the F-16s to the JF-17s, Rao says Pakistan is working to develop its own solution. We have Link 16 on the F-16s. We will not fiddle with Link 16 and not have direct linkages [between the JF-17s] with the F-16. However, we are trying to develop our own tactical datalink. It will send information from the JF-17 to a ground station where there will be an interface, he says, adding there will be a short delay, and then the information will be sent to the F-16s.

Like with its fighters, Pakistan also has different types of airborne early warning and control aircraft. The country has three Saab Erieye aircraft and will receive its fourth by midyear, Rao says. This is its last Saab Erieye on order. Pakistan will also receive in the middle of the year its first Shaanxi ZDK-03. Pakistan has four on order, and the first rolled out of the Shaanxi Aircraft factory in November. But Rao says China is still busy installing the equipment and doing the necessary upgrades.

Another major requirement that Pakistan has is for UAVs. It already has Italian Selex Galileo Falco UAVs, and Rao says Pakistan has reached an agreement with the company whereby some Falcos will be made in Pakistan for the local market and export. Production will start in Pakistan this year, he says. In the past Pakistan reportedly wanted to have the Falco armed, a request that Italy rejected. Rao says the UAVs made in Pakistan will carry no weapons and will be for reconnaissance and surveillance, mostly of areas where insurgents and terrorists may be hiding.


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## Machoman

Pakistan is open for deal with them if the price I think $18-23 million then I think Pakistan should get over 150. Lets see what happend.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

meh....it's been like that since mid 60s.

Alliances dont always entail that all the civilian populations are on eachother's best friend list. If they were, then Turkiye wouldnt be an ally of the U.S. either. Anti-American sentiment is MUCHHHHHH higher there than in Pakistan.

they have something we need, and for now we have something they need. I personally wish for a more genuine partnership, but for now we chugging along and it works out. Our foreign policy is magnificent, domestic policy leaves much to be desired.


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## Machoman

Just get some F-16 first then zindabad and murdabad later............


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## Abu Zolfiqar

works on both sides i guess....people get emotional, u know how it is


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## air marshal

*A Pakistani Air Force F-16 taxis past a Pakistan Air Force Mirage fighter jet on the runway at Pakistan Air Force Base Shahbaz near Jacobabad, Pakistan. The F-16s belongs to the new re-designated Squadron 5 and replaces the older Mirage aircraft. The Pakistan Air Force conducted a re-equipping ceremony on March 10 which was attended by Maj. Gen. Richard Shook, the Individual Mobilization Augmentee to Lt. Gen. Mike Hostage, U.S. Air Forces Central commander. (U.S. Air Force photo by Lt. Col. Michael Shavers)*

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## DANGER-ZONE

OOO bhai look at F-16 wing tip... SMOKE WINDERS....it must be maneuvering.
more pix AIR MARSHAL.


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## Silk

danger-zone said:


> OOO bhai look at F-16 wing tip... SMOKE WINDERS....it must be maneuvering.
> more pix AIR MARSHAL.


 
I think those are training-rounds and not smokewinders. Smokewinders are bigger in diameter. These are the trainingrounds without real IR nose and no rocket nor energy gerators on the backfins.

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## DANGER-ZONE

^ perhaps i was too excited 

then it might be targeting the old mirage in Air.


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## Indus Falcon

For the Love of God, what I can't understand is why is the PAF buying more Blk 52's ?? Why can't they upgrade the existing falcons to Block60+/70 ??? The UAE air force who currently fly the most advanced version of the falcon are upgrading their birds to Block 70 (to counter the F16IN ), and we are still mucking about with Block 52!!! 

IMO the PAF should just upgrade all its falcons to Block 60/70 instead of buying more Blk 52's

Secondly, with the relationship Pakistan has with the UAE, I'm 100% sure the royalty issue can be tackled tactfully.


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## Silk

Abu Nasar said:


> For the Love of God, what I can't understand is why is the PAF buying more Blk 52's ?? Why can't they upgrade the existing falcons to Block60+/70 ??? The UAE air force who currently fly the most advanced version of the falcon are upgrading their birds to Block 70 (to counter the F16IN ), and we are still mucking about with Block 52!!!
> 
> IMO the PAF should just upgrade all its falcons to Block 60/70 instead of buying more Blk 52's
> 
> Secondly, with the relationship Pakistan has with the UAE, I'm 100% sure the royalty issue can be tackled tactfully.


 
Basic knowledge. Block 60 or further is no way comparable (even structural) with the block52. How would you do such upgrade? Try first to google and then post. But looking forward to your answer.


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## Indus Falcon

Silk said:


> Basic knowledge. Block 60 or further is no way comparable (even structural) with the block52. How would you do such upgrade? Try first to google and then post. But looking forward to your answer.


 
With all due respect, your basic knowledge seems to be fundamentally flawed! When a Blk 15 can be upgraded to Blk 50/52, why can't you upgrade to Blk 60/70?

As to your comment on googling, here you go:

*F-16E/F Block 60* F-16 Fighting Falcon variants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Based on the F-16C/D Block 50/52*, it features improved radar and avionics and conformal fuel tanks; it has only been sold to the United Arab Emirates. At one time, this version was incorrectly thought to have been designated "F-16U." A major difference from previous blocks is the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, which gives the airplane the capability to simultaneously track and destroy ground and air threats. The Block 60's General Electric F110-GE-132 engine is a development of the -129 model and is rated at 32,500 lbf (144 kN). The Electronic Warfare system is supposed to be quite advanced and includes the Northrop Grumman Falcon Edge Integrated Electronic Warfare Suite RWR together with the AN/ALQ-165 Self-Protection Jammer. Falcon Edge, which was developed by Northrop Grumman specifically for the Block 60, is capable of showing not only the bearing of any threat but also the range. The Block 60 allows the carriage of all Block 50/52-compatible weaponry as well as AIM-132 Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile (ASRAAM) and the AGM-84E Standoff Land Attack Missile (SLAM). The CFTs provide an additional 450 US gallon (2,045 L) of fuel, allowing increased range or time on station. This has the added benefit of freeing up hardpoints for weapons that otherwise would have been occupied by underwing fuel tanks. The MIL-STD-1553 data bus is replaced by MIL-STD-1773 fiber-optic data bus which offers a 1000 times increase in data-handling capability. UAE funded the entire $3 billion Block 60 development costs, and in exchange will receive royalties if any of the Block 60 aircraft are sold to other nations. According to press reports quoted by Flight International, this is "the first time the US has sold a better aircraft [F-16] overseas than its own forces fly".
Like the F-35, the Block 60 F-16 has a built in FLIR/laser targeting system rather than using a pod that would increase drag and RCS.

As to built in systems like FLIR/LTS, when you do an upgrade, you can incorporate this option and others (fiber optic data bus) into it. As you can see from the below pic, that when undergoing an upgrade, the aircraft is literally stripped down to bare bones, enabling an operator to incorporate whatever upgrades necessary.






Secondly, wouldn't 40 Blk 60/70, be more formidable than 80 Blk-52+ ???


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## airbus101

Why there is no picture and name of the squadron on f-16 C/D


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## SBD-3

Abu Nasar said:


> With all due respect, your basic knowledge seems to be fundamentally flawed! When a Blk 15 can be upgraded to Blk 50/52, why can't you upgrade to Blk 60/70?
> 
> As to your comment on googling, here you go:
> 
> *F-16E/F Block 60* F-16 Fighting Falcon variants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> *Based on the F-16C/D Block 50/52*, it features improved radar and avionics and conformal fuel tanks; it has only been sold to the United Arab Emirates. At one time, this version was incorrectly thought to have been designated "F-16U." A major difference from previous blocks is the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, which gives the airplane the capability to simultaneously track and destroy ground and air threats. The Block 60's General Electric F110-GE-132 engine is a development of the -129 model and is rated at 32,500 lbf (144 kN). The Electronic Warfare system is supposed to be quite advanced and includes the Northrop Grumman Falcon Edge Integrated Electronic Warfare Suite RWR together with the AN/ALQ-165 Self-Protection Jammer. Falcon Edge, which was developed by Northrop Grumman specifically for the Block 60, is capable of showing not only the bearing of any threat but also the range. The Block 60 allows the carriage of all Block 50/52-compatible weaponry as well as AIM-132 Advanced Short Range Air-to-Air Missile (ASRAAM) and the AGM-84E Standoff Land Attack Missile (SLAM). The CFTs provide an additional 450 US gallon (2,045 L) of fuel, allowing increased range or time on station. This has the added benefit of freeing up hardpoints for weapons that otherwise would have been occupied by underwing fuel tanks. The MIL-STD-1553 data bus is replaced by MIL-STD-1773 fiber-optic data bus which offers a 1000 times increase in data-handling capability. UAE funded the entire $3 billion Block 60 development costs, and in exchange will receive royalties if any of the Block 60 aircraft are sold to other nations. According to press reports quoted by Flight International, this is "the first time the US has sold a better aircraft [F-16] overseas than its own forces fly".
> Like the F-35, the Block 60 F-16 has a built in FLIR/laser targeting system rather than using a pod that would increase drag and RCS.
> 
> As to built in systems like FLIR/LTS, when you do an upgrade, you can incorporate this option and others (fiber optic data bus) into it. As you can see from the below pic, that when undergoing an upgrade, the aircraft is literally stripped down to bare bones, enabling an operator to incorporate whatever upgrades necessary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Secondly, wouldn't 40 Blk 60/70, be more formidable than 80 Blk-52+ ???



1st thing, Silk is a very informed and respected poster here. Secondly, do look for some research but from *Good Sources*, wikipedia is a source which can be edited by any T D and H. Here as an initial help, go to www.f-16.net. This website has tonns of both general and technical information for developing know-how about falcon and research.Thirdly, to answer why F-16s can't be upgraded to Block 60 standard.
1- Export of AESA and new engine will require not UAE, but US approval.
2- While an aircraft can be upgraded, it is still restricted by various factors e.g. airframe etc. Even PAF MLUed Falcons will be far superior in capabilities than pre MLUed Falcons, however, they will not have the identical capabilities as the brand new F-16 Bl 52 . For example, the MLUed Falcons wont be able to use CFTs.
3- There has not been any such upgrade plan done anywhere so LM would have to start a new program for PAF if PAF decided to have this and then TAI would also not have been a party since it has no experience with Bl-60 manufacturing and maintainence.
4- For housing AESA, new pods integration and new engine, Airframe redesign would have been necessary as AESA adds up significant weight to the AC. This of course, can not be done with old airframes like Block 15 (even non upgraded block 15/10 cant even carry AMRAAMs for which OCU upgrade is required). So While update package is already available for Block 52 this would not mean that an upgrade should also be available for Bl-60 Level
Hope you would have got the point
cheers


----------



## Silk

Thanks Hasnain. Anyway, here some bits form the net...

In 2003, the Block 60 was redesignated F-16E/F, in recognition of the major structural, avionics and propulsion system advancements, which make the Block 60 a practically new version of the F-16. The first of 80 Block 60 F-16s for the United Arab Emirates Air Force made its maiden flight at Fort Worth on December 6, 2003. It bore the serial 3001 and wore the civil registration of N161LM. Deliveries are scheduled to run from 2004 to 2007.

Surely some parts can be used but there is no upgrade possible due to much higher thrust needed from the engine. To tell you insight... The weight even in the Block60 is a big issue. They keep having often flat tires after the landing. IF you add all the equipment in the vanilla block52 it will not be safe.


----------



## Pfpilot

It doesn't make sense even in the slightest for Pakistan to even think about the block 60 and beyond, simply because it would replicate what the j-10b will give us at half the cost.
Anyways, if we could afford a block 60 or theoretical block 70, we would have just bought the rafale or some other 4.5 generation jet already.


----------



## Manticore

Abu Nasar said:


> With all due respect, your basic knowledge seems to be fundamentally flawed! When a Blk 15 can be upgraded to Blk 50/52, why can't you upgrade to Blk 60/70?
> 
> As to your comment on googling, here you go:
> 
> Secondly, wouldn't 40 Blk 60/70, be more formidable than 80 Blk-52+ ???



it is not possible to retrofit Block 50-52 F16's to the Block 60 Configeration..., there are significant structural differences ,USAF didn't pay for the development of Block 60, UAE did , comparing with F-16C/D Block50/52, it has around 70% difference in hardware and 100% difference in software -- same might be the case with the overexpensive f-2 -- so as such upgrade programme doesnt exhist , it wouldve been entirely funded by paf, thus skyrocketing the price even further as compared to j10b

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...6-mlu-specifications-36-blk-52-prospects.html


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## DANGER-ZONE

here you go fellas *F-16D Block 52* with CFT .. the image quality of the picture is not so gud because the photographer has focused on pilot not to bird .
pilot face has been censored

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## air marshal

Here comes another

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## Patriot

So all the conspiracies about Pakistanis not having CFt can die now!


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## Imran Khan

Patriot said:


> So all the conspiracies about Pakistanis not having CFt can die now!


 
yes indians will now gone a step ahead from CFT to amraam.


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## Kompromat




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## Kompromat

Update:



> Pakistan's new F-16s are powered by Pratt & Whitney F100-229 engines, with other systems understood to include Northrop Grumman's mechanically scanned APG-68(V)9 radar and ITT's ALQ-211(V)9 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare suite.
> 
> A proposed weapons package outlined by the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency in 2006 included 500 Raytheon AIM-120C5 advanced medium-range air-to-air missiles and 200 short-range AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinders, plus 500 Boeing joint direct attack munitions, 1,600 enhanced GBU-12/24 laser-guided bombs and 700 BLU-109 penetrator bombs.



Pakistan forges ahead with new fighters, upgrades


*ITT's ALQ-211(V)9 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare suite.*






*500- AIM-120C5 AMRAAM.*






*200- AIM-9M-8/9.*






*500-Boeing JDAM*






*1600-GBU-12/24*

GBU-12 Paveway.






GBU-24.






*700-BLU-109 Penetrator*








Regards:

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## Tajdar adil

arsalanaslam123 said:


> J-11J-11
> A 4.5-generation J-11B prototype flying
> Role	Multirole Air Superiority Fighter
> Manufacturer	Shenyang Aircraft Corporation
> Designed by	Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (J-11B is Chinese-designed)
> First flight	1998
> Introduced	1998
> Status	Active service
> Primary user	People's Liberation Army Air Force
> Produced	1998-Present
> Number built	&#8776;100
> Developed from	Sukhoi Su-27SK
> 
> 
> J-11 b/c is a marked improvement done by the chinese
> 
> 
> Comparable aircraft
> 
> * F-15 Eagle
> * Sukhoi Su-30MKI
> * Eurofighter Typhoon


 
J 11b is very good aircraft but i thing Pakistan is not intrusted in J 11b...


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## S-A-B-E-R->

Tajdar adil said:


> J 11b is very good aircraft but i thing Pakistan is not intrusted in J 11b...


 
guys as far as i know IAF did many upgrades on MKI ,in the context we can do the same but with better tech avalable as chinese AESA is near completion and we r aware of many ne,of course money is a problem but theoratically we can do it right?


----------



## MZUBAIR

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> guys as far as i know IAF did many upgrades on MKI ,in the context we can do the same but with better tech avalable as chinese AESA is near completion and we r aware of many ne,of course money is a problem but theoratically we can do it right?


 
We have also done with MIRAGE ..called ROSE program.
Indian Mirage 2K ...dont have AESA radar.

Besides our JF-17 hav adva techs to countre IAF Mirages


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## MZUBAIR

PAF F-16's have some 700 BLU-09 Penetrator

It has *steel casing *about 1 inch (25.4 mm) thick, filled with 530 lb (240 kg) of Tritonal.* It has a delayed-action fuse*. *It is intended to smash through concrete shelters and other hardened structures before exploding.*

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## MZUBAIR

GBU-24.


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## MZUBAIR

Some 500 JDAM


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## S-A-B-E-R->

MZUBAIR said:


> We have also done with MIRAGE ..called ROSE program.
> Indian Mirage 2K ...dont have AESA radar.
> 
> Besides our JF-17 hav adva techs to countre IAF Mirages


 
yes but my question is for j 11


----------



## Indus Falcon

PIRATE IRST (infra-Red Search & Track) system

Pardon my ignorance, I'm much more of an Army/ Navy guy than Air Force. 

Does any such capability exist with us right now?

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## cch4530

Are there any pics of the new dual seat F-16s with CFT fitted on them?


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## Manticore

The Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) is a guidance kit that converts unguided bombs, or "dumb bombs" into all-weather "smart" munitions. JDAM-equipped bombs are guided by an integrated inertial guidance system coupled to a Global Positioning System (GPS) receiver, giving them a published range of up to 15 nautical miles (28 km).

*Integration (JDAM)
Planned-Follow-on integration efforts are currently underway or planned to evaluate compatibility with:
* JF-17 Thunder*




GBU-31: Mk84 bomb fitted with JDAM

Paveway IV is a new-generation dual mode GPS/INS and laser guided bomb for use by military aircraft.
The weapon is a guidance kit based on the existing Enhanced Paveway II Enhanced Computer Control Group (ECCG) added to a modified Mk 82 general-purpose bomb with increased penetration performance
Mk 82





GBU-10 Paveway II
American Paveway-series laser-guided bomb, based on the Mk 84 general-purpose bomb, but with laser seeker and wings for guidance.





GBU-12 Paveway II
The GBU-12 PAVEWAY II laser-guided bomb is an American aerial bomb, based on the Mk 82 500-pound general-purpose bomb, but with the addition of a nose-mounted laser seeker and fins for guidance

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## fatman17

*10 Apr 1992* 
First Pakistani aircraft: F-16A (#90-943) and F-16B (#90-948) arrive at AMARC under designations AAFG0001 & AAFG0002. They are the first of 28 Peace Gate III & IV aircraft to be embargoed.


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## umair86pk

RNLAF cutting its F-16 MLU fleet by 19 aircrafts in a year or so. Its a Good option if PAF can get it.
DutchNews.nl - Thousands of defence ministry jobs to go, but JSF 'testing' goes ahead


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## DANGER-ZONE

has PAF acquired GBU-24 .. ya GBU-10 pe hi guzara hai


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## alimobin memon

Showing newest posts with label F-16. Show older posts
Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) To Develop New Indigenous Modernization Kits and Mission Computers For F-16s

Turkey&#8217;s military aircraft giant Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is set to develop new indigenous modernization kits and mission computers.
Upgrades will be applicable to all the F-16 Block 40 fighters of the Peace Onyx III and Block 50 fighters of the Peace Onyx IV programs, as well as the Block 30s that were acquired earlier. TAI plans to market the upgrades for export to other countries.

Previous news about TAI and Aselsan&#8217;s joint attempts to produce indigenous mission computers have been clarified by TAI insiders. Latest reports indicate that the companies have finalized their technical consultations with the MOD and industrial suppliers as of the end of January and the project has been given green light in order to equip Turkey&#8217;s vast fleet of F-16s with newly developed indigenous sensors and weapons such as Aselpod navigation and targeting system, various missiles and high-precision munitions produced and/or currently under development in Turkey.



Project aims to upgrade all of Turkish Air Force (TurAF) F-16s with indigenous mission computers, software and avionics in order to pave the way for the installation of an Aselsan-developed AESA radar by 2015.
Hardware for the avionics upgrade will be exclusively manufactured by Aselsan, while TAI will tackle the development of millions of lines of highly specialized software. Upgrades will be performed by the same team that performed C-130 modernization and software team mostly consists of experienced engineers who have worked on the Anka UAV development program. Upgraded aircraft will look somewhat similar to existing Peace Onyx exterior configurations, except with specific EW-E/O sensor additions and pylons capable of launching &#8217;Made in Turkey&#8217; guided munitions.

Integration of indigenous systems on aircraft of Lockheed Martin origin is known to be a difficult undertaking. TAI and Aselsan&#8217;s take on the project and F-16s &#8220;nationalization&#8221; at the Block 50 level is expected to offer Turkey a wide window of export and &#8216;transfer of technology&#8217; (TOT) opportunities thanks to the F-16s widespread popularity around the world.
Turkey will be able to sell these countries comprehensive modernization packages like the CCIP, individual sensors and weapon systems like targeting pods and missiles, as well as &#8220;nationalization&#8221; opportunities with direct TOT.
Turkey&#8217;s &#8216;special status&#8217; with the F-16 comes from its existing place among the world&#8217;s top three users of the aircraft, previous manufacturing and export experience with the Falcon (to Egypt), as well as Turkey&#8217;s long-standing partnership and commitment in the F-35 JSF program.
Some Turkish defence analysts suggest that Turkey&#8217;s newfound ability to nationalize the F-16 is simply a means for compensating the country for not being given F-35 source codes, despite the longstanding NATO member&#8217;s commitment for an initial batch of over 100 F-35s.

can we upgrade our f16's too?

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## BATMAN

I hope to see about 10 of MLU F-16 in Pakistan by the end of this year.

BTW... can any once confirm this news:


> In recent years, Chile, Jordan, and Pakistan have purchased surplus Dutch and Belgian F-16AM/BM for their air forces.[16]


LINK


----------



## Silk

BATMAN said:


> I hope to see about 10 of MLU F-16 in Pakistan by the end of this year.
> 
> BTW... can any once confirm this news:
> LINK


 
Some of Paf block15 were build by Fokker (Holland) and Sabca (Belgium). Thery did not sell their planes to PAF. Maybe Belgium sold spare parts. Not sure.


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## BATMAN

Silk said:


> Some of Paf block15 were build by Fokker (Holland) and Sabca (Belgium). Thery did not sell their planes to PAF. Maybe Belgium sold spare parts. Not sure.


 
That's also news to me.


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## fatman17

BATMAN said:


> I hope to see about 10 of MLU F-16 in Pakistan by the end of this year.
> 
> BTW... can any once confirm this news:
> LINK



MLU aircraft will start arriving starting 2012

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## razgriz19

any news on TAI upgraded f-16s..??
did they even start?


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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> any news on TAI upgraded f-16s..??
> did they even start?



yes 6 a/c are with TAI - the upgrade was to start in oct-2010 but delayed till start of 2011

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## Manticore

what does afti has over the blk52+?


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## SBD-3

ynmian said:


> I DONT LIKE THIS SPINE


 





I hope now you will start liking spine


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## S-A-B-E-R->

ANTIBODY said:


> what does afti has over the blk52+?


 what the heck


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## SBD-3

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> what the heck


 
this was an advanced technology testbed.So nothing to worry about

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## notorious_eagle



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## DANGER-ZONE

notorious_eagle said:


> Falcons in Saudi during Al Saqroor Excercise



This one is not from SA but from personal album of Sqn.Ldr F.Nadeem on FB and the falcon is stationed at home base.

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## Manticore

new orders list







Norwegians pods..

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## Shahzad Sultan

What is the difference b/w Block 50 & 52 ?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Shahzad Sultan said:


> What is the difference b/w Block 50 & 52 ?


 
key difference is the engine


Block-50 uses F110-GE-129 

Block 52 uses F100-PW-229

lattter being lighter and more powerful than the earlier F100 variants

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## krash

Shahzad Sultan said:


> What is the difference b/w Block 50 & 52 ?


 
Essentially these are not separate blocks i.e. its block 50/52. Onwards from block 25 the F-16s came with two engine options, general electric and pratt and whitney engines. Designations for blocks from then on came in dual numbers: 30/32, 40/42, 50/52 and 50/52+. The blocks ending in a '0', e.g. block 50, are powered by general electric engines. Where as the aircraft from blocks ending in '2', e.g. block 52, are powered by pratt and whitney engines.

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## Manticore

Shahzad Sultan said:


> What is the difference b/w Block 50 & 52 ?


 
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...mlu-specifications-36-blk-52-prospects-6.html

ive just posted them here



> This variant, which is also known as the Block 50/52+. Its main differences are the addition of support for conformal fuel tanks (CFTs), a dorsal spine compartment, the APG-68(V9) radar, an On-Board Oxygen Generation (OBOGS) system and a JHMCS helmet.[5]
> 
> The CFTs are mounted above the wing, on both sides of the fuselage and are easily removable. They provide an additional 440 US gallon or approximately 3,000 pounds (1,400 kg) of additional fuel, allowing increased range or time on station and frees up hardpoints for weapons instead of underwing fuel tanks.[6] All two-seat "Plus" aircraft have the enlarged avionics dorsal spine compartment which is located behind the cockpit and extends to the tail. It adds 30 cu ft (850 L) to the airframe for more avionics with only small increases in weight and drag.[7]
> Polish Air Force F-16C Block 52+, 2006
> 
> Poland took delivery of its first F-16C Block 52+ aircraft on 15 September 2006. The "Poland Peace Sky program" includes 36 F-16Cs and 12 F-16Ds. All 48 aircraft were delivered in 2008.[8] The Hellenic Air Force took delivery of its first F-16C Block 52+ aircraft on 22 May 2008. The total Greek order is for 20 F-16Cs and 10 F-16Ds. The remaining 26 aircraft should be delivered by March 2010.[9] Pakistan Air Force has order 18 F-16C/D Block 52+ which include 10 F-16C and 8 F-16D. The Israeli F-16I is based on the block 52+ aircraft.

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## Shahzad Sultan

Thanks buddy i have already read the same


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## monitor

It seems relevant Since we were discussing bugs and restrictions, I saw the following may be It doesn't show use in aircraft but certainly shows other scenarios.

High-tech warfare: Something wrong with our **** chips today | The Economist

Something wrong with our **** chips today
Kill switches are changing the conduct and politics of war

Apr 7th 2011 | from the print edition

IN THE 1991 Gulf war Iraqs armed forces used American-made colour photocopiers to produce their battle plans. That was a mistake. The circuitry in some of them contained concealed transmitters that revealed their position to American electronic-warfare aircraft, making bomb and missile strikes more precise. The operation, described by David Lindahl, a specialist at the Swedish Defence Research Agency, a government think-tank, highlights a secret front in high-tech warfare: turning enemy assets into liabilities.

The internet and the growing complexity of electronic circuitry have made it much easier to install what are known as kill switches and back doors, which may disable, betray or blow up the devices in which they are installed. Chips can easily contain 2 billion transistors, leaving plenty of scope to design a few that operate secretly. Testing even a handful of them for anomalies requires weeks of work.

Kill switches and other remote controls are on the minds of Western governments pondering whether to send weapons such as sophisticated anti-tank missiles, normally tightly policed, to rebels in Libya. Keeping tabs on when and where they are fired will allay fears that they could end up in terrorist hands. Such efforts would not even need to be kept secret. A former CIA official says the rebels could be told: Look, were going to give you this, but we want to be able to control it.
Related topics

Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA, United States)
Circuit engineering
Electrical engineering
Engineering
Integrated circuits

That lesson was first learned in Afghanistan in the 1980s, when America supplied Stinger missiles to help Afghan fighters against Soviet helicopter gunships, only to have to comb the regions arms bazaars in later years to buy them back (some were then booby-trapped and sold again, to deter anyone tempted to use them).

America worries about becoming the victim of kill switches itself. Six years ago a report by Americas Defence Science Board, an official advisory body, said unauthorised design inclusions in foreign-made chips could help an outside power gain a measure of control over critical American hardware.

Chips off the home block

In response, America has launched schemes such as the Trusted Foundry Programme, which certifies secure, domestic facilities for the manufacture of the most critical microchips. The Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), a Pentagon outfit devoted to expanding the militarys technological abilities, will spend at least $20m this year on ways to identify rogue microchips. The Army Research Office is holding a closed conference on kill switches in mid-April.

Farinaz Koushanfar, a DARPA-funded expert at Texass Rice University, says microchip designers would like to be able to switch off their products in the wild, in case the contractors that make the chips produce some extra ones to sell on the sly. She designs active hardware metering chips that, in devices connected to the internet, can remotely identify them and if necessary switch them off.

An obvious countermeasure is to keep critical defence equipment off the net. But that is only a partial solution. Chips can be designed to break down at a certain date. An innocent-looking component or even a bit of soldering can be a disguised antenna. When it receives the right radio signal, from, say, a mobile-phone network, aircraft or satellite, the device may blow up, shut down, or work differently.

Old-fashioned spying can reveal technological weaknesses too. Mr Lindahl says Sweden obtained detailed information on circuitry in a heat-seeking missile that at least one potential adversary might, in wartime, shoot at one of its eight C-130 Hercules military-transport planes. A slight but precise change in the ejection tempo of the decoy flares would direct those missiles towards the flame, not the aircraft.

Such tricks may be handy in dealing with unreliable allies as well as foes, but they can also hamper Western efforts to contain risk in unstable countries. Pakistan has blocked American efforts to safeguard its nuclear facilities. The countrys former ambassador to the United Nations, Munir Akram, cites fears that such measures will include secret remote controls to shut the nuclear programme down. A European defence official says even video surveillance cameras can intercept or disrupt communications. To avoid such threats, Pakistani engineers laboriously disassemble foreign components and replicate them.

Wesley Clark, a retired general who once headed NATOs forces, says that rampant fears of kill switches make American-backed defence co-operation agreements a harder sell. David Kay, a notable United Nations weapons inspector in Iraq, bemoans scepticism and paranoia. You just cant trust anybody these days, even in the weapons business.

from the print edition | International


----------



## krash

monitor said:


> IN THE 1991 Gulf war Iraq&#8217;s armed forces used American-made colour photocopiers to produce their battle plans. That was a mistake. The circuitry in some of them contained concealed transmitters that revealed their position to American electronic-warfare aircraft, making bomb and missile strikes more precise.



I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt that story mate.........


----------



## Donatello

krash said:


> I seriously, SERIOUSLY doubt that story mate.........


 


No need to seriously seriously doubt anything....

As an electronics engineer i can assure you that it is very easy to design entire systems on a single chip.

Infact, Photocopiers have capability to make copies secretly.......it came as part of deal so copyright could be respected......so administrators can later retrieve them if needed.

US could have easily designed such a system. They will never give a clean product to a country they see as their future combat enemy.

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## krash

penumbra said:


> No need to seriously seriously doubt anything....
> 
> As an electronics engineer i can assure you that it is very easy to design entire systems on a single chip.
> 
> Infact, Photocopiers have capability to make copies secretly.......it came as part of deal so copyright could be respected......so administrators can later retrieve them if needed.
> 
> US could have easily designed such a system. They will never give a clean product to a country they see as their future combat enemy.


 
Yeah but the whole story of the americans installing those chips on the exact same photocopier on which those plans were photocopied is a bit ludicrous. Or had they installed those chips on every single photocopier shipped to Iraq? Or maybe more believable somehow planted those chips when the photocopiers were shipped to the known customer, in this case the higher Iraqi military offices. But still it sounds a bit not too plausible.


----------



## Donatello

krash said:


> Yeah but the whole story of the americans installing those chips on the exact same photocopier on which those plans were photocopied is a bit ludicrous. Or had they installed those chips on every single photocopier shipped to Iraq? Or maybe more believable somehow planted those chips when the photocopiers were shipped to the known customer, in this case the higher Iraqi military offices. But still it sounds a bit not too plausible.


 

They can know which product was shipped to which country. So they might have just done on all of them. Like i said, installing an electronic device like that in a big machine like a photocopiear isn't a big of a task.

Remember that CIA and NSA's intelligence budget is more than the entire defense/intelligence budgets of Pakistan and India combined.

They have money to throw.


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## air marshal




----------



## Windjammer

It's an open secret that an American drone was actually shot down by the Pakistan Forces, the current information minister even disclosed it in a slip up,
However the whole matter was later buried in the technical fault Manuel.


----------



## v9s

penumbra said:


> No need to seriously seriously doubt anything....
> 
> As an electronics engineer i can assure you that it is very easy to design entire systems on a single chip.
> 
> Infact, Photocopiers have capability to make copies secretly.......it came as part of deal so copyright could be respected......so administrators can later retrieve them if needed.
> 
> US could have easily designed such a system. They will never give a clean product to a country they see as their future combat enemy.



I don't know about transmitters in photocopiers, but every photocopier has a hard drive where an image of every copy ever made is stored.

There was a recent documentary where a tv channel crew bought a lot of used/old photocopiers, took their hard drives out and retrieved the photocopied document image from each...some had highly sensitive/confidential info (think govt/military stuff).


----------



## SBD-3

---------- Post added at 08:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 PM ----------

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Drones are easy you can shot one down if you fly your kite in its path


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## notorious_eagle

*New F16C Block 52+ Training*

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## krash

hasnain0099 said:


>


 
Notice the extra protrusion between the vertical stabilizer and the engine on the F-16A MLU than the F-16C in the sketch. Now one can see this particular F-16C tail design on the block 30/32, 40/42 and I think block 50 F-16Cs as well. But the block 52 and 52+ F-16C's tail design resembles more to the F-16A MLU as shown in the sketch. 

USAF block 40 and 42 F-16Cs:









A Polish F-16C 52:





A Hellenic F-16C 52+:





And the new Pakistani F-16C 52+:

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## kursed

Pilot's wearing a JHMCS?


notorious_eagle said:


> *New F16C Block 52+ Training*


----------



## FC 20

Can anyone one tell me the total number of F 16s PAF has?(block 52+ and block 15 MLU)and r there any plans to get more as FC 20 MIGHT get delayed?


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## fatman17

FC 20 said:


> Can anyone one tell me the total number of F 16s PAF has?(block 52+ and block 15 MLU)and r there any plans to get more as FC 20 MIGHT get delayed?



pls search the threads - this has been dealth with a 1,000 times


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## Aamir Hussain

What is Dr. Samar Mubarakmand doing talking about F-16's and its capabilities? I do hope that we do not have another AQK in the making. This type of jingoism is one of the reasons for our going down the drain.

Some things are better left un-said

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## SQ8

Aamir Hussain said:


> What is Dr. Samar Mubarakmand doing talking about F-16's and its capabilities? I do hope that we do not have another AQK in the making. This type of jingoism is one of the reasons for our going down the drain.
> 
> Some things are better left un-said


 
AQK's consistent rivalry with Dr Samar seems to be wearing off on him


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## Aamir Hussain

I hope they keep the nation out of their personal ego fights.


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## dbc

krash said:


> Yeah but the whole story of the americans installing those chips on the exact same photocopier on which those plans were photocopied is a bit ludicrous. Or had they installed those chips on every single photocopier shipped to Iraq? Or maybe more believable somehow planted those chips when the photocopiers were shipped to the known customer, in this case the higher Iraqi military offices. But still it sounds a bit not too plausible.


 
He is right, be weary of American copiers.


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## khurasaan1

yea ..! very nice ad ...


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## unicorn

Aamir Hussain said:


> I hope they keep the nation out of their personal ego fights.


 

Think Tank If personal egos are involved then we would not have seen them doing things to which they are associated with.Your comment is a bit harsh in this.


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## BATMAN

Santro said:


> AQK's consistent rivalry with Dr Samar seems to be wearing off on him


 
Why you bring AQ in here?

If any media man come to you in a state of unbelief and ask you for confirmation, would you endorse what Rehman Malik said or would you tell what you believe otherwise?


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## SQ8

BATMAN said:


> Why you bring AQ in here?
> 
> If any media man come to you in a state of unbelief and ask you for confirmation, would you endorse what Rehman Malik said or would you tell what you believe otherwise?


 
Why did you bring Rehman malik into this?


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## airbus101

Tactical Communications Group (TCG), the leading independent provider of tactical data link (TDL) software solutions for military test, training, simulation and operational applications worldwide, received its fourth consecutive order from the US Air Forces' Electronic Systems Center (ESC) for a Ground Support System (GSS) for use by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). TCG's GSS solution for the (PAF) will provide their pilots a commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) capability to support Link 16 simulation training and operations situational awareness on Pakistani F-16 aircraft.
By using the GSS, PAF will now be able to connect to airborne networks at a low cost and conduct efficient and effective training of network operators and aviation personnel. The TCG system will also provide growth options for additional data link networking for operational and maintenance training on the system and its components in Southeastern Pakistan. The GSS can be easily and affordably adapted to their F16 fleet applications and has been proven in the US and in over twelve worldwide locations, including countries throughout Europe, Scandinavia, the Middle East and Pacific Rim Air Bases.
"This customer win signifies the traction TCG's systems are getting in the international military arena," said Ed Durkin TCG's CEO. "We are providing the Pakistani Air Force the best possible ground link 16 capability at an affordable price. TCG's GSS solution is an extension of its proven COTS Ground Tactical Data Link System (GTS) and was chosen for its comprehensive operational and training design, and capabilities. We are confident it will meet the Pakistani's mission requirements moving forward, and are pleased to win this competitive FMS award."
ESC announced TCG's selection in February after a competitive process starting with an RFP release in October 2010 for one (1) tactical ground support system which was able to provide the capability of transmitting, receiving, and recording Link 16 network transmissions, a stable navigation source, and emulated Command and Control (C2) and non-C2 platform transmissions. TCG will deliver the GSS to the US Government and then subsequently install and test the system in Pakistan with new requested optional features to be added shortly thereafter.
TCG's Ground Support System (GSS) is intended to support training and operational needs of end users who work with Link 16 TDL networks, whether it is used as the first line platform training tool for new data link users or it is used as an exerciser for interoperability testing and training. The Multi-TADIL GSS is an extension of the Link 16 GSS and offers multiple data links. For these multi-link applications there may also be translation and forwarding capabilities embedded in the GSS. The Multi-TADIL GSS includes tools that are found in large scale Command and Control (C2) environments. There is a sophisticated simulator and message generator to support platform integration of data link environments. The GSS also implements a scenario generator that can establish a repeatable test program for platform test. The data recorder and playback functions allow the test activity to analyze test activities and provide a post test data analysis. The playback functions also allow the platform operators to evaluate tactics and procedures
Source: Tactical Communications Group

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## Aamir Hussain

BATMAN said:


> Why you bring AQ in here?
> 
> If any media man come to you in a state of unbelief and ask you for confirmation, would you endorse what Rehman Malik said or would you tell what you believe otherwise?


 
Would the same media men be asking the Air chief to comment on the state of coal exploration in Pakistan -- even if one did, I doubt that the Air Chief would respond to it. We fuel the media by answering questions that we are not qualified to answer for reasons best known to the person answering. Persons in responsible positions should shy away from commenting on things that they are not fully qualified ot answer.

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## BATMAN

Santro said:


> Why did you bring Rehman malik into this?


 
So you don't want to share the reasons for your trolling!

The remark of Dr. Samar Mubarik was an attempt to clarify the misleading statement of Rehman Malik and it is quite obvious in my post but you want to continue playing... so be my guest.


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## BATMAN

Aamir Hussain said:


> Would the same media men be asking the Air chief to comment on the state of coal exploration in Pakistan -- even if one did, I doubt that the Air Chief would respond to it. We fuel the media by answering questions that we are not qualified to answer for reasons best known to the person answering. Persons in responsible positions should shy away from commenting on things that they are not fully qualified ot answer.


 
I can expect much more weired things from media.
Have you never seen Rehman Malik commenting on matters of foreign affairs, defence, sports and god knows what else.
Have you seen objections from same person?

PAF cheif has confirmed it once........ so for me it was just a matter of endorsing what PAF cheif said and rejecting what Rehman Malik said.

Dr. Samar Mubarik is not a coal explorer either, but a trusted technical authority in Pakistan.
Now attempting to make fun of his character instead of the content is cheap.

Any one can come forward to reject any thing what Rehman Malik says or try to prove or try to cover up.
In any case, AQK was not related with news... by far.

Alas PPP is a religious obligation for some.... therefore no one can help with this, syndrome.


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## Shahzad Sultan

Please don't destroy the essence of thread

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## Aamir Hussain

BATMAN:

I apologise if I have hit a nerve or two -- it was never intended to be so. Let us get back on the subject.;-)


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## Mr.Ryu

Does Pakistan have any A2A missile program that would be put on 16s ??


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## mjnaushad

Mr.Ryu said:


> Does Pakistan have any A2A missile program that would be put on 16s ??


 
Why would we when we ordered the biggest deal of AMRAAMs


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## Mr.Ryu

Well then it means it does not have.  Just curious


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## MastanKhan

Aamir Hussain said:


> BATMAN:
> 
> I apologise if I have hit a nerve or two -- it was never intended to be so. Let us get back on the subject.;-)


 
Hi,

Sir---as a scientist---a senior most scientist---Dr Samar is talking too much----it is okay if he talks about the gold mine project or the coal project----that is not an issue----but when he opens his mouth about an international issue----then he is startring to create a problem for himself and pakistan.

The problem for pakistan being----he is asking for trouble---asking for being in the cross hairs---pakistan cannot afford to lose him to a paid killer---he needs to keep that in mind----somebody needs to tell him that---so that he can keep his trap shut----. No one person is irreplacable----but his loss would be massive---he needs to keep his focusa on the jobs that he is doing and he needs to keep on plugging.

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## acetophenol

if i am not wrong, apart from usaf,paf has been the largest and oldest customer of f-16s right?


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## fatman17

acetophenol said:


> if i am not wrong, apart from usaf,paf has been the largest and oldest customer of f-16s right?



thats not correct

pakistan was the 7th customerin the 80's to buy the Viper
Israel and the NATO countries have larger fleets than pakistan. Egypt has a larger fleet. S/Korea has a larger fleet.


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## fatman17

Mr.Ryu said:


> Does Pakistan have any A2A missile program that would be put on 16s ??



sidewinder/sparrow/aim-120c5/7


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## Pfpilot

acetophenol said:


> if i am not wrong, apart from usaf,paf has been the largest and oldest customer of f-16s right?


 
According to f-16.net, the first customers of the f-16 were the Europeans: Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark and Norway. 
As far as largest customer go, I think that title belongs to the Isrealis.


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## Silk

Pfpilot said:


> According to f-16.net, the first customers of the f-16 were the Europeans: Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark and Norway.
> As far as largest customer go, I think that title belongs to the Isrealis.



customers? Most of the planes are donated.

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## Manticore

some very good reads if you want to read f16 types and evolution--

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...mlu-specifications-36-blk-52-prospects-6.html
Federation of American Scientists :: F-16 Fighting Falcon
[2.0] F-16 Variants
Article : Code One Magazine


combat aircraft designs index--post 467, 465
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/75408-combat-aircraft-designs-31.html

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## Manticore

All Pratts are small-mouths. All GEs after 86-0261 are big mouths-ALL P&W-powered F-16s are "small mouths". ALL GE-powered F-16s after 86-0261 (block 30) are big-mouths. 86-0261 and previous GE jets are small-mouths. 

The shapes are NOT a perfect match. The newest 50/52's and 60's have a larger nose tire which required the intake to be reshaped to accomodate the new tires size. If you can find a newer intake you should be able to see a noticeable bump about 4 feet in on the lower surface.
http://dc201.*******.com/img/2zfvnP3k/0.5379205841854309/intakes_299.jpg

Here is a Small-mouth...
Notice the inlet is the same width as the fuselage behind it. On a Big-Mouth, the inlet is wider than the structure behind it.
http://dc201.*******.com/img/0IEKHF7V/0.3634230660358393/ahx_145.jpg

For comparison here is an F-16A Block 5.
Prior to September 1987 ALL Vipers had "Small-Mouth" inlets like the ones PW powered blocks still have today. (With or without the little lump inside the intake.)
http://dc201.*******.com/img/nriF-jkx/0.3167712103993051/amd_198.jpg

blk60/52+ with big mouth
http://dc201.*******.com/img/V9usk9gk/0.4192840695480159/aac_611.jpg

the splitter between the top of the intake and the bottom of the fuselage is swept on big-mouths and not swept on small-mouths.
http://dc365.*******.com/img/K_jY55-v/0.9337610360598972/inletsx500_126.jpg
F-16C Block-30C 86-0261 is the last Block-30 for the USAF with the "Small Inlet" and F-16C Block-30D 86-0262 is the first with the "Big Inlet". #262 is also a MIG-killer.

For the two-seaters F-16D Block-30C 86-0043 is the last for the USAF with the "Small Inlet" and F-16D Block-30D 86-0044 is the first with the "Big Inlet". 

note--i'm still researching for more data

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## ejaz007

Silk said:


> customers? Most of the planes are donated.


 
What is the source for this statement.


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## air marshal

*May 2011*

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## Donatello

I firmly believe that these new F-16s have kill switches in them, after the May 1 incident.

I would say if PAF has any dignity left, it would return those to USA in protest and just get more Chinese air defense systems.

USA has shown it's true face and so has our security establishment.

I am disgusted.

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## Last Hope

penumbra said:


> I firmly believe that these new F-16s have kill switches in them, after the May 1 incident.
> 
> I would say if PAF has any dignity left, it would return those to USA in protest and just get more Chinese air defense systems.
> 
> USA has shown it's true face and so has our security establishment.
> 
> I am disgusted.



Ofcourse it has the kill switch. Every craft they sell has. If i am not wrong, this switch was removed from all earlier f16s.
Only three countries are successful in removing the bug: India, Turkey and Pakistan.

The mission you are talking about is really dangerous and will take upto a month to find what exactly happened.


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## Donatello

Last Hope said:


> Ofcourse it has the kill switch. Every craft they sell has. If i am not wrong, this switch was removed from all earlier f16s.
> Only three countries are successful in removing the bug: India, Turkey and Pakistan.
> 
> The mission you are talking about is really dangerous and will take upto a month to find what exactly happened.


 

What do you mean that only Three countries (India, Turkey and Pakistan) have been successful in removing the bug?


Last time i checked on this forum, a Turkish member said of their F-16s crashed due to some bugged features......i mean, our radars were supplied by US....they probably know it inside out more than anyone. Do you really think they would want to have their Black Hawks shot down by F-16s that they themselves sold to us?

Osama raid is good news for US but bad news on many fronts with respect to Pakistan. We better get more Chinese hardware and fast!

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## notorious_eagle

Some new pics i found

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## khurasaan1

okay nice pics ...but the aircrafts are not trustable like US....

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## drunken-monke

khurasaan1 said:


> okay nice pics ...but the aircrafts are not trustable like US....


 
F-16 is the nothing less than the combat aviation marval. Having it in the PAF is like ensuring Palistan's skies safe. But the real problem is that, these awsome machines are attached here and there with some sort of strings, bugs and dual faced policy of the America. Well trained combat piolots can not operated them as per their will for nations service. Contrary to this, China have made Pakistan available with Latest tech (jF17, In Pipeline J10B and J11) with probably no restriction. It is obvious for Pakistan to be felt like betrayed by US with these bugs, sanctions, deprivment of Latest tech. When Indian MMRCA was under evaluation, I must say Pakistan's case was also taken in to consideration while evaluating US war toys. How USA denied Pakistan their own Planes. In the incoming years, Pakistan may not consider the US warplanes, becoz they would be of no use if PAF cant utilize them with its full potential.

With regards
Drunken Monke

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## Stealth_fighter

i know current us-pak relationship in critical condition,but is pakistan going to procure more f-16?because i think before attobad operation some PAF official stated that WE WILL TAKE AS MUCH AS THEY GIVE.so any update on this?


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## muse

More F16? -- I think any Pakistani official found making weapons deals with US will be hanging from a lamp post in no time.


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## TOPGUN

muse said:


> More F16? -- I think any Pakistani official found making weapons deals with US will be hanging from a lamp post in no time.


 
I agree but i wonder will they now give us back the last viper blk 52 left with them for futher testing rem we only got 17 out of the 18.


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## Najam Khan

TOPGUN said:


> I agree but i wonder will they now give us back the last viper blk 52 left with them for futher testing rem we only got 17 out of the 18.


 
No, if you are talking about the 1st batch a/c which remained at SA due to some technical problem, it joined others within a week. All 18 are operational at Jacobabad.

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## MAJOR-ALI

how many pak army have f16 in service (active) ??


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## farhan_9909

i think f-16 is the biggest mistake PAK made to purchase

mig 29 or mirage 2000 was the best option


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## Najam Khan

farhan_9909 said:


> i think f-16 is the biggest mistake PAK made to purchase
> 
> mig 29 or mirage 2000 was the best option


 
You need to go back and check the time line and situation of region when we get F16s. Soviets/Afghans were crossing our borders on routine basis...and PAF has no solution to it...F6 were inferior to Mig23s and Mig21s, Mirages lack in air combat. F5s and F20 were offered but their operational date was not what PAF wanted.


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## MJaa

*Pakistan's F-16 Program at Risk of Failure?: Wikileaks
*

Classified By: Anne W. Patterson

SUMMARY: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has approached the U.S. with a request to use Foreign Military Financing (FMF) to help pay for Mid-Life Updates (MLU) on its existing fleet of F-16 fighter aircraft. This request would require the modification of the original Letter of Offer and Acceptance (LOA) that sanctioned the deal and notification to Congress of the change. 

The MLU case is but one of three major cases that constitute the bulk of the over $3 billion F-16 sale. Failure of the F-16 program would have serious long-term consequences for Pak-US bilateral relationship. 

*Click here to Read More*


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## MJaa

farhan_9909 said:


> i think f-16 is the biggest mistake PAK made to purchase
> 
> mig 29 or mirage 2000 was the best option


 
Mig-29 wasn't available and not a true multi-role aircraft

Mirage-2000 was outdated and Mirage-2000-5 was way to expensive


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## humza_313

There is no doubt that f.16s were the best and reasonable choice available. Initially u.s was offering f.4s ..... As for the mirage program, the french gov didnt want to sell the ful package. The deal fell with the fal of government in mid 90s...


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## humza_313

Also lets not forget that in the 80s the u.s also offered f.5 tigers. Pak was the 2nd country to purchase f.16s after israeil. They helped retaliate the soviet forces in the 80s and the israiel from sabotaging the nuclear program(thats another long topic though)...


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## Najam Khan

MJaa said:


> *Pakistan's F-16 Program at Risk of Failure?: Wikileaks
> *
> 
> Classified By: Anne W. Patterson
> 
> SUMMARY: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has approached the U.S. with a request to use Foreign Military Financing (FMF) to help pay for Mid-Life Updates (MLU) on its existing fleet of F-16 fighter aircraft. This request would require the modification of the original Letter of Offer and Acceptance (LOA) that sanctioned the deal and notification to Congress of the change.
> 
> The MLU case is but one of three major cases that constitute the bulk of the over $3 billion F-16 sale. Failure of the F-16 program would have serious long-term consequences for Pak-US bilateral relationship.
> 
> *Click here to Read More*


 
Whats the date/time line when she wrote this cable? She was in Pakistan from July 2007 and October 2010.
Since two of our F16s are in Turkey for MLU since last Oct, i presume her concerns didn't proved true. MLU program is going as planned. Even after OBL episode, PAF will never think of stepping back.


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## Windjammer

humza_313 said:


> Also lets not forget that in the 80s the u.s also offered f.5 tigers. Pak was the 2nd country to purchase f.16s after israeil. They helped retaliate the soviet forces in the 80s and the israiel from sabotaging the nuclear program(thats another long topic though)...


 
It was actually F-20 Tiger Shark for which, US was hoping Pakistan would become a launch customer.
Before Pakistan some half a dozen NATO Countries had inducted the F-16, the initial batch for the PAF was in fact diverted from European assembly lines to speed up the delivery.


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## MJaa

NAjAM Khan said:


> Whats the date/time line when she wrote this cable? She was in Pakistan from July 2007 and October 2010.
> Since two of our F16s are in Turkey for MLU since last Oct, i presume her concerns didn't proved true. MLU program is going as planned. Even after OBL episode, PAF will never think of stepping back.


 
You are right, I seems that US did followed her idea and allowed the use of US funding for MLU


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## MilSpec

US cables expose Pak F-16s 'image' problem

The F-16 fighter aircraft, which America sold to the Pakistan Air Force, and recently tried to sell to India, has been a relationship spoiler all round. 

Pakistan complains that American sanctions held back many F-16s that had already been paid for. India complains that Pakistan will use the F-16s against India, not terrorists. And America is upset that India hasn't bought F-16s. 

WikiLeaks cables accessed exclusively by NDTV reveal how the the F-16 assumed mythical proportions in the Pakistan public mind making it a very big deal in that country. They also reveal how Pakistan has always known that they will not really help it match India's air combat prowess and how India is not really worried about it's the F-16's fighting capabilities. (WikiLeaks - Pak wants better terms for buying F-16s)

Several cables exchanged between the US embassy in Islamabad and Washington illustrate how large the F-16 looms in the minds of Pakistanis. US diplomats write that, "The Pakistani Air Force (PAF) is obsessed with F-16s" and the fighters have "an inflated symbolic importance in the public imagination". (Read: WikiLeaks - Pak signs F-16 Letters of Offer and Acceptance)
Cables also note that the Pakistani Air Force tacitly admits that the Pakistan Air Force is no match for the Indian Air Force's resources. The PAF's operations chief, Air Vice Marshal Khalid Chaudhry, was quoted in a cable of March 2006 as telling a visiting Pentagon official John Hillen that, "The PAF has no hope of matching the IAF's resources... the math just doesn't add up". Even the proposed purchase of 20 F-16s would not make a difference, Chaudhry reportedly said. 

The Pakistan Air Marshal was also quoted as saying drily that the Pakistani public must be "convinced that they're getting a great aircraft... even if there's no money to pay for them. Chaudhry told Hillen to "ensure the F-16 deal has enough sweeteners to appeal to the public... (such as smart bombs and night vision)... but not to offer the PAF things it cannot afford." (Read: WikiLeaks - Pakistan threatens top stop F-16 payments) | (Read: WikiLeaks - Request for specific changes in F-16 security notes)

Across the border, for India too, the F-16 has been seen more as political weapon, not a military one of great worth. Then Indian Foreign Secretary Shyam Saran is quoted in cable as telling visiting US Under Secretary Nick Burns as much. That India's concern about the US sale of F-16s to Pakistan was not about the fighters' military impact, since the Indian Air Force would remain much more powerful. But, Saran said, this sale by America might "cause political problems for India's coalition government."

Nick Burns noted that he saw an opportunity to push through the sale to Pakistan. (Read: WikiLeaks - US reassurances to Pakistan on the F-16 sale) His cable noted that New Delhi was okay with F-16s being sold to Pakistan..."the problem is merely one of managing Indian public opinion."


Read more at: US cables expose Pak F-16s 'image' problem

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## alimobin memon

the deal is good our force is not dumb something is fishy fishy !! we r buying more f16 because i think the threat is from india that is why!!. some agents have intel of that !! and U.S is supporting but remains hidden !!!


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## muse

On the contrary, you will see that we will have to shed, sell, the F16 we do operate


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## SQ8

No need to sell them.. and no need to shed them either, just use them sparingly.


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## Aamir Hussain

farhan_9909 said:


> i think f-16 is the biggest mistake PAK made to purchase
> 
> mig 29 or mirage 2000 was the best option


 
And who is going to sell these goodies to us? The French? -- They have refused to even sell avionics to us in anticipation of Indian order. The Russians -- an unedr secratery of Foreign Affairs Ministry came to greet our president at the airport when he went there for a visit last month.

Let us not live in a dellusional world and face the reality -- no one wants to deal with -- too many faces and complications an top of that no money. 

If we can maintain and compete in the regional military balance or create space for us for say next ten years without major chance of a regional conflict, than China remains the only option if we do end up kicking uncle sam in his behind. Otherwise it would be prudent that we get the best hardware we can lay our hands on from both China and US and do whatever it takes to make sure that both them end up eating out of our hands. 

Yes, that is the challenge that we face today both militarily, politcally, and geo-stratigcally. We need to devise a strategic plan to meet these and other national goals. Otherwise we will stumble from one Abbottabad, to another Mehran and knee jerk reactions on Daivs to the next Dharna. 

Unfortunately, the war for Pakistan, this time around would not be fought by the genrals but deft handling by our politicans on the international and domestic front.


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## SQ8

Aamir Hussain said:


> Unfortunately, the war for Pakistan, this time around would not be fought by the genrals but deft handling by our politicans on the international and domestic front.


 
Not exactly a good omen is that?? Deft..or more likely dumb handling..
With Useless Raza Gilani denying any future permissions for various acts ...

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## Najam Khan

F16 is still the most loved fighter of PAF pilots, the maneuverability and performance of the a/c hold no match with other fighters before induction of JF-17. Since 1983, all the inter-sqn skill competitions were won by F16 squadrons ( No.14 only once, 9 and 11 mainly)...it was difficult for other squadrons to bridge the gap between their a/c and F16.

Back in mid 90s , ACES (Assessment of Combat Efficiency of Squadrons) become a victim of criticism...and as a result its procedure was changed. Since then, the competition is held in three sub-groups Multi role Sqn (F16),Tactical Attack (Mirage & A-5) and air superiority Sqn (F-7).Winners of each group compete for ACES Top Squadron trophy.

Now PAF has other options too, they are going further towards JF-17 and FC-20 too. The rule of F16 in PAF, has to end...definitely in next five years things will be different!


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## ejaz007

MAJOR-ALI said:


> how many pak army have f16 in service (active) ??


 
Pakistan Army does not operate F-16. Pakistan Airforce operates F-16 or for that matter all air assetts are operated by air force.

PAF has around 64 F-16's. Existing F-16 32, EDA F-16 received around 14, New block 52 received 18.


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## ejaz007

farhan_9909 said:


> i think f-16 is the biggest mistake PAK made to purchase
> 
> mig 29 or mirage 2000 was the best option


 
Right decision was made to buy additional F-16's. I doub't Mig-29 is available for Pakistan and Mirage 2000 prodcution line is closed. Buying a fighter whose production line is closed is not a wise decision. Also buying a new weapon system means opening a new inventory which is not easy and also is costly.


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## SQ8

NAjAM Khan said:


> F16 is still the most loved fighter of PAF pilots, the maneuverability and performance of the a/c hold no match with other fighters before induction of JF-17. Since 1983, all the inter-sqn skill competitions were won by F16 squadrons ( No.14 only once, 9 and 11 mainly)...it was difficult for other squadrons to bridge the gap between their a/c and F16.
> 
> Back in mid 90s , ACES (Assessment of Combat Efficiency of Squadrons) become a victim of criticism...and as a result its procedure was changed. Since then, the competition is held in three sub-groups Multi role Sqn (F16),Tactical Attack (Mirage & A-5) and air superiority Sqn (F-7).Winners of each group compete for ACES Top Squadron trophy.
> 
> Now PAF has other options too, they are going further towards JF-17 and FC-20 too. The rule of F16 in PAF, has to end...definitely in next five years things will be different!


 
Whilst Sq wise the F-16 did win..
On an individual engagement basis the F-16 has had it handed to it by some antiques as well.
Some rookie's in the F-16 found themselves in the sights of the F-6 and FT-5.
and in the recent high mark..
F-16's were regularly shot down by F-7PG's.


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## Najam Khan

Santro said:


> Whilst Sq wise the F-16 did win..
> On an individual engagement basis the F-16 has had it handed to it by some antiques as well.
> Some rookie's in the F-16 found themselves in the sights of the F-6 and FT-5.
> and in the recent high mark..
> F-16's were regularly shot down by F-7PG's.



I don't know about FT-5, but F-6 was a very good air defence fighter...a PAF pilot shot down USN F-14 with it too. Mirages are no where in air combat. F-7PGs are also very maneuverable and their performance is close to F16...its not a very surprising news, because of routine DACT missions our pilots have understand the weaknesses of other fighters, also because of postings of pilots from one type to other the lessons learned by one person is shared among others ....still today its panic whenever a F16 jumps into a DACT.


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## SQ8

NAjAM Khan said:


> I don't know about FT-5, but F-6 was a very good air defence fighter...a PAF pilot shot down USN F-14 with it too. Mirages are no where in air combat. F-7PGs are also very maneuverable and their performance is close to F16...its not a very surprising news, because of routine DACT missions our pilots have understand the weaknesses of other fighters, also because of postings of pilots from one type to other the lessons learned by one person is shared among others ....still today its panic whenever a F16 jumps into a DACT.


 
The USN F-14 incident was with a mirage 5.. with the late AC Rizwanullah Khan..
He related the incident to me personally.. 
and to get the proof that it all happened.. there is a video of F-14 pilots on youtube.. around the same timeline.. 94-95.. where they show a placard with a profanity about Pakistan.. this is what triggered it


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## Najam Khan

Santro said:


> The USN F-14 incident was with a mirage 5.. with the late AC Rizwanullah Khan..
> He related the incident to me personally..
> and to get the proof that it all happened.. there is a video of F-14 pilots on youtube.. around the same timeline.. 94-95.. where they show a placard with a profanity about Pakistan.. this is what triggered it


 
On a different note, F-6 pilot also shoot one down... Alan Warnes has narrated some part of it in his book, 'PAF 1998-2008 The new dawn'.
If iam not mistaken the pilot was F/L Jawad Saeed, later commanded 9 Sqn.


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## SQ8

NAjAM Khan said:


> On a different note, F-6 pilot also shoot one down... Alan Warnes has narrated some part of it in his book, 'PAF 1998-2008 The new dawn'.
> If iam not mistaken the pilot was F/L Jawad Saeed, later commanded 9 Sqn.


 
I have the book.. but cant recall it.. F-6's have shot down F-15's in exercises.. it is possible that they achieved the same with an F-14 during exercises with the USN.
However.. the mirage| F-14 incident was no exercise.. weapons had gone hot that day.


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## Najam Khan

Santro said:


> I have the book.. but cant recall it.. F-6's have shot down F-15's in exercises.. it is possible that they achieved the same with an F-14 during exercises with the USN.
> However.. the mirage| F-14 incident was no exercise.. weapons had gone hot that day.


 
Can you post more details of the F14 incident?

I have heard from some 'old flyres' that USN a/c flew close to Pakistan's air space near Karachi(back in 90s)...their purpose was to tease PAF pilots....one day two Mirages intercepted them...Mirage No.2 lost visual of the tomcat...he decided to lock the target...which was a very offensive move, may be he forgot that locking means 'official' start of an encounter...the tomcat pilot gave full throttle,climbed straight up, and ran away.

Since then, it was all silent from their side.....i am sure the mission debrief would be a 'hot session' for both pilots.


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## Aamir Hussain

Santro said:


> Not exactly a good omen is that?? Deft..or more likely dumb handling..
> With Useless Raza Gilani denying any future permissions for various acts ...


 
Exactly Santro, before we all start pointing fingers at everyone else for our problems, the fact remains that opportuties have risen in the past for Pakistan and will continue to do so in the future -- but are we prepared to make the best use of them???


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## SQ8

NAjAM Khan said:


> Can you post more details of the F14 incident?
> 
> I have heard from some 'old flyres' that USN a/c flew close to Pakistan's air space near Karachi(back in 90s)...their purpose was to tease PAF pilots....one day two Mirages intercepted them...Mirage No.2 lost visual of the tomcat...he decided to lock the target...which was a very offensive move, may be he forgot that locking means 'official' start of an encounter...the tomcat pilot gave full throttle,climbed straight up, and ran away.
> 
> Since then, it was all silent from their side.....i am sure the mission debrief would be a 'hot session' for both pilots.


 
Well.. according to AC rizwan.. the tomcat pilot was a young jock acting smart.. making close passes to the Mirages..going inverted..etc.
He said he took it for a while..till the US pilot started making moves too close for comfort.. 
So the next time the tomcat pilot did a showoff.. he jettisoned his tanks..and went hot on the winders..
this led to the F-14 going wildly evasive, AC rizwan said that he still had a lock on the F-14..and within that window could have taken him..
However.. after a minute or so of maneuvering both A/C were bingo.. and headed back.
Whatever it was.. it had the tomcat pilot cursing loudly on the guard channel. 



Aamir Hussain said:


> Exactly Santro, before we all start pointing fingers at everyone else for our problems, the fact remains that opportuties have risen in the past for Pakistan and will continue to do so in the future -- but are we prepared to make the best use of them???


 
Have we ever..?
In the words of Jack sparrow uttered best for us..

We Pakistani's love opportunities; we like to wave at them as they pass by.

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## Najam Khan

Santro said:


> Well.. according to AC rizwan.. the tomcat pilot was a young jock acting smart.. making close passes to the Mirages..going inverted..etc.
> He said he took it for a while..till the US pilot started making moves too close for comfort..
> So the next time the tomcat pilot did a showoff.. he jettisoned his tanks..and went hot on the winders..
> this led to the F-14 going wildly evasive, AC rizwan said that he still had a lock on the F-14..and within that window could have taken him..
> However.. after a minute or so of maneuvering both A/C were bingo.. and headed back.
> Whatever it was.. it had the tomcat pilot cursing loudly on the guard channel.



Good narration...Just to tease PAF pilots, they used to fly close to our airspace, when informed once by a scrambled Mirage, the rude reply was that 'I know the borders'....they continued flying along the border for 45min....God knows whats the reason of wasting so much time and fuel at such a non sense mission...!


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## SQ8

NAjAM Khan said:


> Good narration...Just to tease PAF pilots, they used to fly close to our airspace, when informed once by a scrambled Mirage, the rude reply was that 'I know the borders'....they continued flying along the border for 45min....God knows whats the reason of wasting so much time and fuel at such a non sense mission...!


 
Does not exist in the American dictionary.


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## Najam Khan

Santro this one is for you.
OC 11 Sqn receiving ACES Top trophy in 1995....i believe the person is known to you






And with coveted trophies. 11 Sqn won ACES three times in a row 1993,1995,1996. They were second in 1997 and 1998.

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## Donatello

Santro said:


> Does not exist in the American dictionary.


 

...Because there doesn't exist any 'American Dictionary'...but rather the same old colonial English, chopped down into slangs...which is the new language for them. :p


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## Donatello

NAjAM Khan said:


> Santro this one is for you.
> OC 11 Sqn receiving ACES Top trophy in 1995....i believe the person is known to you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And with coveted trophies. 11 Sqn won ACES three times in a row 1993,1995,1996. They were second in 1997 and 1998.


 

Hi Najam,

Thanks for the pics.

Is the competition held every year? Because 1993, 1995 and 1996 isn't three times in a row......unless there was no competition for 1994.


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## Najam Khan

penumbra said:


> Hi Najam,
> 
> Thanks for the pics.
> 
> Is the competition held every year? Because 1993, 1995 and 1996 isn't three times in a row......unless there was no competition for 1994.


 
Yes, ACES and ADEx evaluations of all flying squadrons and air defence units are carried out every year. ACES evaluation for maintenance efficiency and combat training is to assess the war preparedness of base/units. I don't think in 1994 it was done, may be it was not needed as Highmark93 was conducted some time back.


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## khurasaan1

US f-16nz are useless to us ....


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## muse

Santro said:


> No need to sell them.. and no need to shed them either, just use them sparingly.



But why assume the risk? What kind of argument is to use equipment sparingly, I mean is the cost not justification for ridding ourselves of these and going for platforms that are 100 percent ours, our to decide who, what, when,how and why, instead of equipment which we in essence, rent and whose use is really in the hands of those who may just as easily be foes and not friends.

I can understand the jockey position - and don't have an argument against it -- these platforms are a danger for us, they perform great, but the use of these is not in our hands and in a tough situation, not even spares from Turkiye or Israel will be possible - in other words, junk.

No offense intend to any jockey, it's not the performance of the platform and it's systems, nor to any of the personal relationships - the argument really is about how these platforms figure in US policy and Pakistan polikcy and how these are at odds and must be resolved - Pakistan can agree to be a US vassal... or not.


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## SQ8

muse said:


> But why assume the risk? What kind of argument is to use equipment sparingly, I mean is the cost not justification for ridding ourselves of these and going for platforms that are 100 percent ours, our to decide who, what, when,how and why, instead of equipment which we in essence, rent and whose use is really in the hands of those who may just as easily be foes and not friends.
> 
> I can understand the jockey position - and don't have an argument against it -- these platforms are a danger for us, they perform great, but the use of these is not in our hands and in a tough situation, not even spares from Turkiye or Israel will be possible - in other words, junk.
> 
> No offense intend to any jockey, it's not the performance of the platform and it's systems, nor to any of the personal relationships - the argument really is about how these platforms figure in US policy and Pakistan polikcy and how these are at odds and must be resolved - Pakistan can agree to be a US vassal... or not.


 
These platforms lasted even through US sanctions in the 90's.. and whilst even then it was considered that the sq's that flew them had a weeks lifespan.. they still would make some difference. So whilst the capability exists to make a difference in a conflict. Why dump them..?
Worse case.. they'll be sanctioned right??.. so fine.. we'll fly them a little, reduce sq strength , cannibalize them..

They will not hold the top tier in the tech tree for the PAF in a few years anyway.. why fret so much about them?

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## air marshal

*FALCON AT FULL THROTTLE: The F-16 boosts forward with its afterburners activated displaying a beautiful pattern behind.*

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## fatman17

*2 Jun 2002 
Pakistani F-16 shot down 1 Indian Searcher II UAV*


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## fatman17

*Pakistani Air Force F-16 Pilots*

36 Pakistani Air Force pilots have reached 1,000 flying hours or more in the F-16 Fighting Falcon so far. 



Wg.Cmd. Zulfiqar "Sidewinder" Ayub
(Updated: 29 May 2010) 
9 sqn | 9 sqn 



Wg.Cmd. Tariq Zia
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 
| 9 sqn 



Irfan Ahmed
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 




Wg.Cmd. Fauad Masud Hatmi
(Updated: 29 Aug 2010) 
11 sqn | 9 sqn 



Air.Cmd. Ashfaq Arain (Ret.)
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 




Wg.Cmd. Aamir Masood
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 
| 9 sqn 



Wg.Cmd. M. Haseeb Paracha
(Updated: 30 Aug 2010) 
9 sqn | 11 sqn 



Wg.Cmd. Ali Naeem "Baaz" Zahoor
(Updated: 22 May 2011) 
11 sqn 



Air.Vice.Marsh. Farhat Hussain Khan
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 




Air. Vice. Marsh. Athar Bokhari (Ret.)
(Updated: 29 May 2010) 




Air.Cmd. Khaleel Ahmed
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 
11 sqn 



Sqn.Ldr. Haider "Tipu" Zaidi
(Updated: 20 Feb 2011) 
11 sqn 



Wg.Cmd. Javad Saeed
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 




Sqn.Ldr. Khalid Mahmood (Ret.)
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 




Wg.Cmd. Bilal Hassan
(Updated: 29 May 2010) 
9 sqn 



Wg.Cmd. Waqas Ahmed Sulehri
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 




Wg.Cmd. Hamza Jamil
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 




Sqn.Ldr. Omair Ahmed Najmi
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 
11 sqn 



Sqn.Ldr. Moin "Tornado" Rana
(Updated: 29 May 2010) 




Sqn.Ldr. Khalid Mehmood
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 
9 sqn 



Sqn.Ldr. Azman Khalil
(Updated: 1 Feb 2010) 




Sqn.Ldr. Asim "Mav-Slammer" Raja
(Updated: 29 May 2010) 
9 sqn 



Sqn.Ldr. Nauman "Hornet" Ali
(Updated: 29 Jan 2011) 
11 sqn 



Sqn.Ldr. Mustafa "Lightening" Orakzai
(Updated: 17 Feb 2010) 
11 sqn 



Sqn.Ldr. Aftab "Viper-Phantom" Zia
(Updated: 29 May 2010) 
11 sqn 



Sqn.Ldr. Shazib "Falcon" Mehmood
(Updated: 21 Nov 2010) 
11 sqn 



Cdr. Sayed Muzaffar Ali (Ret.)
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 




Sqn.Ldr. Ali Asad Khan (Ret.)
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 




Sqn.Ldr. Muhammad Azam
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 




Wg.Cmd. Azher Hassan
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 




Air.Cmd. Razi Nawab (Ret.)
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 




Sqn.Ldr. Muhammad Iqbal
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 




Air.Cmd. Tariq Mahmud Ashraf
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 




Air.Vice.Marsh. Waseem-ud-din (Ret.)
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 




Air.Vice.Marsh. Mohammad Yousaf
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 




Sqn.Ldr. Syed Omer Shah
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 
11 sqn 


*very selective group!!!*

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## air marshal

fatman17 said:


> *2 Jun 2002
> Pakistani F-16 shot down 1 Indian Searcher II UAV*


what's the exact date, June 2, 2002 or June 7, 2002?

See also: http://www.f-16.net/news_article605.html


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## air marshal

*THE FIRST AND THE FURIOUS: Sqn Ldr Zulfiqar and Sqn Ldr Afzal (GIBS) of No 9 MR Sqn destroy an intruding UAV (Searcher-II) of IAF on the night of 7th June, 2002, during Ops Sentinel. This was the first kill of a UAV by any fighter aircraft in the world.*

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## MZUBAIR

*Any thing comes out .......abt F-16 A/B MLU Process.*


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## fatman17

MZUBAIR said:


> *Any thing comes out .......abt F-16 A/B MLU Process.*



4 pattern MLU a/c at Hill AFB to be returned by Q-1-2012.
6 a/c delivered to TAI for MLU. the whole process / upgrade to take 42 months to complete the 44 upgrades.

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## Najam Khan

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistani Air Force F-16 Pilots*
> 
> 36 Pakistani Air Force pilots have reached 1,000 flying hours or more in the F-16 Fighting Falcon so far.
> 
> *very selective group!!!*


 
The actual count is more than 36. W/C Ghazafar and S/L Omar are members of 1000hrs club, not listed in it.

If one opens pilot profile page at the same site, it contains too much outdated information. Mostly pilots are not in those sqn now, some have moved onto Bk52 and some are promoted and posted elsewhere...profile page of Air Cdre Khalid at F16.net calls him Sqn Ldr(Retd)...


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## FC 20

FOR sanctions y not buy more f 16s through EDA for spares


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## humza_313

on f-16.net.. some w/c noman 'hornet' has more than 2000 hours..!


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## humza_313

Windjammer said:


> It was actually F-20 Tiger Shark for which, US was hoping Pakistan would become a launch customer.
> Before Pakistan some half a dozen NATO Countries had inducted the F-16, the initial batch for the PAF was in fact diverted from European assembly lines to speed up the delivery.


 
the paf was also offered f-5E model.. i have no info about the f-20 though... i got the reference from the book "story of paf 1988-98".. before that, the paf was also offered f-4 phantoms and a-7 corsairs... but the deal dissolved...! but is it true that pak was the first non-NATO country to acquire both f-104s and f-16s???


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## SQ8

humza_313 said:


> the paf was also offered f-5E model.. i have no info about the f-20 though... i got the reference from the book "story of paf 1988-98".. before that, the paf was also offered f-4 phantoms and a-7 corsairs... but the deal dissolved...! but is it true that pak was the first non-NATO country to acquire both f-104s and f-16s???


 
The PAF was offered the F-5E.. to be followed by the F-5G(F-20).. 
PAF was not offered F-4... but was offered A-7's prior to our nuclear ambitions.

Was not the first non-nato country to acquire the F-16.. that was Israel.

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## krash

mshoaib61 had the following to say in the http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/52814-paf-rare-birds.html thread:



mshoaib61 said:


> F-20
> In 1979, the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan. The violent Soviet invasion brought hundreds of thousands of Afghan refugees to Pakistan. With the war being critical to Pakistan's national sovereignty and integrity, the PAF once again sought out modernization, including the procurement of new generation fighter aircraft. France offered its new Mirage 2000, while the PAF's senior officers were interested in procuring American F-16 or F-18L fighters. Initially the Americans refused to sell the F-16 or F-18L and instead offered F-20, F-5E/F or A-10 aircraft. Eventually the new Republican administration of Ronald Reagan approved the sale of F-16s to Pakistan, and in 1981 an agreement was made to supply 34 General Dynamics F-16A and 12 F-16B "Fighting Falcon" aircraft to the Pakistan Air Force

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## fatman17

krash said:


> mshoaib61 had the following to say in the http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/52814-paf-rare-birds.html thread:



pic is 'tampered' to add the PAF roundels.


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## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> pic is 'tampered' to add the PAF roundels.


 
How about this sir.


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## araz

Santro 
I may be wrong but there was a smattering of info about PAF being offered F15s. Apparently PAF did not accept it due to its high price, and maintenance issues and insisted on F16s. 
Araz


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## krash

fatman17 said:


> pic is 'tampered' to add the PAF roundels.


 Could be but Iv read somewhere else that the PAF did indeed extensively evaluate the F-20 and this pic has been claimed to be real.



Aeronaut said:


> How about this sir.


 
These were the F-5s sent to us by our Jordanian allies during the 1971 war but werent used by us due to the lack of ejection seats in them, or so Iv heard.......




Here is this depiction the pilots who ferried these aircraft to Pakistan were Squadron Leader Tahir Kheli, Squadron Leader Zaigham Aizad and Flight Lieutenant Bilal Khan

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## krash

Here it is courtesy hassan1 (http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/90093-paf-rare-birds-3.html):


hassan1 said:


> THE TIGER SHARK IS EVALUATED BY THE PAF
> OVER MOJAVE DESERT, CALIFORNIA (4 FEB 1983)
> THE SOVIET INVASION OF AFGHANISTAN IN 1979 BROUGHT THE PAF BACK INTO THE MARKET FOR ACQUIRING A LOW COST FIGHTER TO COMPLEMENT THE INVENTORY OF THE 40 ADVANCED F-16S THAT HAD BEGUN TO BUILD UP FROM EARLY 1983.THREE AMERICAN OPTIONS WERE EVALUATED BY THE PAF,THE FAIRCHILD REPUBLIC A-10 THUNDERBOLT,THE LTV A-7 CORSAIR 2,AND THE NORTHEN F-20 TIGERSHARK,A SINGLE ENGINED DERIVATIVE OF THE F-5 OF THE THREE,THE TIGERSHARK WAS THE BEST BUT SINCE IT HAD NEITHER A LARGE CUSTOMER POTENTIAL NOR A COMPETITIVE PRICE, THE PAF FINALLY CHOSE THE CHINESE F-7P TO CREATE THE MIXED FORCE THAT ECONOMICALLY MET ITS OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS.THE PHOTO SHOWS THE F-20 BEING PILOTED BY GROUP CAPTION ABBAS H.MIRZA. (LATER AIR VICE MARSHAL) DURING A FIVE SORTIE EVALUATION HE FLEW ON HIS FIGHTER FROM THE NORTHROP FACILITY AT EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE,CALIFORNIA.THROUGH THE EVALUATION PERIOD,THE F-20 CARRIED THE PAF ROUNDELS AND FIN FLASHES.


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## SQ8

araz said:


> Santro
> I may be wrong but there was a smattering of info about PAF being offered F15s. Apparently PAF did not accept it due to its high price, and maintenance issues and insisted on F16s.
> Araz




Not sure about that.. 
The PAF had its eye on the F-16 the minute the jet came out.
You dont just go gaga for a jet that much till you believe its a match made in heaven..
the F-16 truly is everything the PAF wants out of a jet.


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## fatman17

both the F-15 and F-14 were not offered to the PAF. Pakistan was what is known as a '2nd tier' country (and remains so), therefore is always offered systems which are 1-step below the best available. the F-16 was approved by the then Prez R/Reagan because of the soviet invasion of afghanistan. if that event had not taken place, PAF wld be flying the F-5 in large numbers.


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## epinephrine

US OFFERED PAK WITH F4 , A10 ,F-16 J 79 AND F-16 A.PAF MADE A GOOD DECISION BY GOING FOR THE BEST OPTION i.e F-16 A


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## Pfpilot

As much as I love the f-16, any and all dollars spent on its procurement have been a waste...the sad reality that they were utterly useless after the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan ended has made for a very expensive show piece. I do hope we learn our lesson, but the problem with having leaders who are more interested in protecting their position of power is that they do what those protecting them tell them to do...so I wouldnt be surprised if we see more f-16s in the future or the f-35 down the road when it has taken a place similar to the f-16 on the tech tree...unless our nation wakes up and chooses better leadership ofcourse.


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## epinephrine

Pfpilot said:


> As much as I love the f-16, any and all dollars spent on its procurement have been a waste...the sad reality that they were utterly useless after the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan ended has made for a very expensive show piece. I do hope we learn our lesson, but the problem with having leaders who are more interested in protecting their position of power is that they do what those protecting them tell them to do...so I wouldnt be surprised if we see more f-16s in the future or the f-35 down the road when it has taken a place similar to the f-16 on the tech tree...unless our nation wakes up and chooses better leadership ofcourse.


 
DO U HAVE ANY IDEA HOW EXTENSIVELY WE HAVE USED F-16S IN OP IN SWAT AND FATA?I HAVE BEEN THERE AND SAW THE FALCONS BOMBING THE TALIBAN HIDEOUTS THUS PAVING THE WAY FOR THE GROUND FORCES TO ADVANCE.F-16S USUALLY USED GEN PURPOSE BOMBS WITH AMAZING ACCURACY EVEN DURING THE ANTI AIR CRAFT GUN FIRE BY THE TALIBAN.
SECONDLY WEAPONS R NOT ALWAYS PROCURED TI BE USED .THEY ALWAYS HAVE SOME DETERRENT VALUE.WE HAVE NUKES .HAVE WE EVER USED THEM?BUT THE ENEMY HAS TO THINK MANY TIMES WHILE PLANNING AN ATTACK AGAINST A NUCLEAR CAPABLE COUNTRY WITH EFFICIENT PLATFORMS FOR THEIR DELIVERY


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## alimobin memon

f16 is widely used in pak ops they are not useless


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## Pfpilot

epinephrine said:


> DO U HAVE ANY IDEA HOW EXTENSIVELY WE HAVE USED F-16S IN OP IN SWAT AND FATA?I HAVE BEEN THERE AND SAW THE FALCONS BOMBING THE TALIBAN HIDEOUTS THUS PAVING THE WAY FOR THE GROUND FORCES TO ADVANCE.F-16S USUALLY USED GEN PURPOSE BOMBS WITH AMAZING ACCURACY EVEN DURING THE ANTI AIR CRAFT GUN FIRE BY THE TALIBAN.
> SECONDLY WEAPONS R NOT ALWAYS PROCURED TI BE USED .THEY ALWAYS HAVE SOME DETERRENT VALUE.WE HAVE NUKES .HAVE WE EVER USED THEM?BUT THE ENEMY HAS TO THINK MANY TIMES WHILE PLANNING AN ATTACK AGAINST A NUCLEAR CAPABLE COUNTRY WITH EFFICIENT PLATFORMS FOR THEIR DELIVERY


 
We never bought the f-16s for the Western border, even though we can essentially only use them effectively on that side, but it was meant to counter the Indian threat. The old mirages can adequately bomb terrorist locations...what we need is a counter to the Indians and on that side the f-16s were useless in the 90s due to the sanctions and now with relations going south once again, Im not sure what we plan to do. Considering the Americans abandoned us when the Vietnam War started and again, when the Soviet invasion ended, we should see this coming no? They are effective in SWAT and Fata as you say so Ill concede they are very useful, but dont you feel the kind of money we spent on these aircraft is too high a price to pay? Just for bombing runs on a hopelessly outclassed enemy, in the conventional sense, since the terrorist lack an airwing.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

Santro said:


> The PAF was offered the F-5E.. to be followed by the F-5G(F-20)..
> PAF was not offered F-4... but was offered A-7's prior to our nuclear ambitions.
> 
> Was not the first non-nato country to acquire the F-16.. that was Israel.


 
PAF was even offered the A-10 Warthog....a  formidable aircraft by all means, a battle-proven one --but one with a very limited role and not even designated for air-to-air combat


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## razgriz19



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## epinephrine

Pfpilot said:


> We never bought the f-16s for the Western border, even though we can essentially only use them effectively on that side, but it was meant to counter the Indian threat. The old mirages can adequately bomb terrorist locations...what we need is a counter to the Indians and on that side the f-16s were useless in the 90s due to the sanctions and now with relations going south once again, Im not sure what we plan to do. Considering the Americans abandoned us when the Vietnam War started and again, when the Soviet invasion ended, we should see this coming no? They are effective in SWAT and Fata as you say so Ill concede they are very useful, but dont you feel the kind of money we spent on these aircraft is too high a price to pay? Just for bombing runs on a hopelessly outclassed enemy, in the conventional sense, since the terrorist lack an airwing.



WE USED F-16S TO DEFEND OUR AIR SPACE DURING 2002 N 2008 STAND OFF B/W INDIA N PAK.MIRAGES CAN BOMB THE TALIBANS BUT F-16S CAN CARRY LARGER PAYLOAD.WE HAVE TO USE 4 MIRAGES INSTEAD OF 2 F-16S TO CARRY OUT A BOMBING MISSION AGAINST THE TALIBANS.US IS NOT TRUST WORTHY AND WE SHOULD REDUCE OUR DEPENDENCE ON US EQUIPMENT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE,I AGREE WITH U.PROBABLY THATS Y WE REDUCE THE NO OF F-16S FROM 70 TO 18 IN 2005 N WENT FOR J 10S


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## epinephrine

THERE IS NO AMRAAM IN THESE PICS.THEY R CARRYING AIM 9M SIDEWINDERS I THINK.NO SNIPER PODS AS WELL.
IN THE F-16 ROLL OUT CEREMONY F-16S WERE CARRYING AMRAAMS,SNIPER PODS N AGM 65 MAVERICK


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## alimobin memon

epinephrine said:


> THERE IS NO AMRAAM IN THESE PICS.THEY R CARRYING AIM 9M SIDEWINDERS I THINK.NO SNIPER PODS AS WELL.
> IN THE F-16 ROLL OUT CEREMONY F-16S WERE CARRYING AMRAAMS,SNIPER PODS N AGM 65 MAVERICK


 can u send link or of photo or video ?? carrying all these above specified weapons


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## epinephrine

I HAVE THAT PIC IN MY LAPTOP BUT MY NET SPEED IS TOO SLOW HERE IN AN OPS AREA.EVEN INTERNET AT SUCH SPEED IS A BLESSING HERE.U CAN GOOGLE IT.
HERE IS THE SEARCH RESULT OF GOOGLE.MOST OF THE LINKS R FROM DEFENCE.PK.
PAF F-16 ROLL OUT CEREMONY - Google Search

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## Manticore

hell yeah!

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## Windjammer

PAF F-16 Display in Izmir Air Show Turkey.

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## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> PAF F-16 Display in Izmir Air Show Turkey.


 
Nice to see people waving at the end, and the pilot responding back.

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## TOPGUN

penumbra said:


> Nice to see people waving at the end, and the pilot responding back.


 
I couldn't agree with you more brother loved the video i just love those falcons of ours


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## umair86pk

a splendid performance.


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## fatman17

*7 Jun 1981 
First F-16 combat use, in Israel's raid on a Iraqi nuclear reactor (Osirak)*


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## Najam Khan

fatman17 said:


> *7 Jun 1981
> First F-16 combat use, in Israel's raid on a Iraqi nuclear reactor (Osirak)*


 
Illan ramon's F-16 close shot, not the triangle marking next to Syrian kill mark, showing the Osirak plant attack.

In Sep2003, his 21 yr old son(top graduate from his course) died in an F16 crash. after the incident centrifuge training was made must for all F-16 pilots.


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## air marshal

*Today In History - June 7, 2002:* PAF F-16 piloted by Squadron Leader Zulfiqar and Squadron Leader Afzal (GIBS) of No. 9 MR Squadron 'Griffins' destroy an intruding UAV (Searcher-II) of IAF on the night, during Ops Sentinel. This was the first kill of a UAV by any fighter aircraft in the world.

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## air marshal

*THE FIRST AND THE FURIOUS: Sqn Ldr Zulfiqar and Sqn Ldr Afzal (GIBS) of No 9 MR Sqn destroy an intruding UAV (Searcher-II) of IAF on the night of 7th June, 2002, during Ops Sentinel. This was the first kill of a UAV by any fighter aircraft in the world.*

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## Abu Zolfiqar

a memorable day for the PAF.....good shot.

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## Najam Khan

ACMI range, Sargodha patch.





Some patches worn by members of Griffins in Red flag/Green Flag.









This one is a big size shoulder patch.

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> 4 pattern MLU a/c at Hill AFB to be returned by Q-1-2012.
> 6 a/c delivered to TAI for MLU. the whole process / upgrade to take 42 months to complete the 44 upgrades.


 
thank for the update sir,
one more thing.

as far as i know, the MLU and the turkish STAR upgrade projects were entirely different.
now as you suggest, it seems that the STAR project is gone and turkey have got the order to MLU PAF F-16 with US Supplied kits.

my point is, is the STAR upgarde program intact and will be carried out after MLU or is it cancled.
Also what it was supposed to cover?

Looking forward for your reply.

Arsalan Aslam


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## fatman17

arsalanaslam123 said:


> thank for the update sir,
> one more thing.
> 
> as far as i know, the MLU and the turkish STAR upgrade projects were entirely different.
> now as you suggest, it seems that the STAR project is gone and turkey have got the order to MLU PAF F-16 with US Supplied kits.
> 
> my point is, is the STAR upgarde program intact and will be carried out after MLU or is it cancled.
> Also what it was supposed to cover?
> 
> Looking forward for your reply.
> 
> Arsalan Aslam



i think both are being done


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## Aamir Hussain

The Falcon Up/Falcon STAR upgrade program is to enhance the airframe life. As far as I know it is part of the MLU beibng carried out in Turkey.


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## Aamir Hussain

BTW


"With the recent acquisitions of F-16s, Lockheed Martin plans to sustain production on the F-16 line at Ft. Worth beyond 2010. Major upgrades for all F-16 versions are being incorporated to keep the fleet modern and fully supportable over the aircraft&#8217;s long service life. As all F-16 blocks, recent production blocks of the F-16 such as Block 50, 52 and 60 are also designed, from the ground up, with enough growth potential in weight growth, cabling, data connectivity and capacity, electrical power, and physical space, to enable growth throughout a life span of 40 years and beyond. Utilization of standard interfaces such as 1760, 1553 and the new FiberChannel five channels, Gigabit rate databus, enable rapid interfacing and data sharing throughout the aircraft systems. In addition to the production programs, Lockheed Martin has incorporated a "roadmap of convergence" for F-16 upgrades and production aircraft, consisting of an integrated plan that will result in maximum commonality throughout the fleet."


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## Haq1

Pakistani F-16 shotdown Eurofighter Typhoon, during air compat exercise in Turkey. F-16 Falcon fighter have beaten the RAF's brand-new Eurofighter Typhoon superfighters during air combat exercises in Turkey, according to a Pakistani officer

The RAF Typhoon, formerly known as the Eurofighter, should nonetheless have been vastly superior in air-to-air combat whether BVR or close in within visual range (WVR). The cripplingly expensive, long-delayed Eurofighter was specifically designed to address the defects of its predecessor the Tornado F3 &#8211; famously almost useless in close-in, dogfighting-style air combat. The Typhoon was meant to see off such deadly in-close threats as Soviet "Fulcrums" and "Flankers" using short-range missiles fired using helmet-mounted sight systems: such planes were thought well able to beat not just Tornados but F-16s in close fighting, and this expectation was borne out after the Cold War when the Luftwaffe inherited some from the East German air force and tried them out in exercises.

Thus it is that huge emphasis was placed on manoeuvring capability and dogfighting in the design of the Eurofighter. The expensive Euro-jet was initially designed, in fact, as a pure fighter with no ground attack options at all &#8211; bomber capability has had to be retrofitted subsequently at still more expense. Despite lacking various modern technologies such as Stealth and thrust-vectoring the resulting Typhoon is generally touted as being one of the best air-to-air combat planes in the world right now. Certainly it is meant to be good in close fighting: it is armed with the Advanced Short Range Air to Air Missile (ASRAAM) which as its name suggests is intended for the close WVR fight.

Perhaps the account above is simply a lie, or anyway a bit of a fighter pilot tall story. But the pilot quoted will be easily identifiable inside his community if not to the outside world, and he could expect a lot of flak for telling a lie on such a matter in public. It seems likelier that the story is the truth as he perceived it: that the RAF's new superfighter was thrashed in the very type of combat it is supposed to be best at by a 1970s-era plane, albeit much modernised.

It's always possible, as the anonymous Pakistani pilot suggests, that the problem was with the crews. It may be that RAF pilots simply don't know how to fight close-in. During the many years when they had no other fighter than the lamentable Tornado F3 (the Typhoon only reached front line service a few years ago) they may have lost the institutional skillset required for dogfighting with short-range missiles.

But in general when the British forces perform badly it isn't because of a lack of skills and training. It's far more normal for them to be let down by their kit. Based on this account, the Typhoon is actually worse than an F-16, and as a result an export Flanker or Fulcrum equipped with Archer missiles would beat it easily in WVR combat.

It would appear that the Eurofighter's last remaining selling point compared to modern US-made stealth fighters which cost the same or less (or for that matter vastly cheaper ordinary non-stealth fighters like the F-16, F-18 Hornet etc) now has something of a question mark over it.

Source: ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS


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## Arsalan

Aamir Hussain said:


> The Falcon Up/Falcon STAR upgrade program is to enhance the airframe life. As far as I know it is part of the MLU beibng carried out in Turkey.


 
yes the STAR upgards were planned with Turkey and now with Turkey winning a contract for MLU of PAF F-16 with US supplierd kit, there is ever possibility that STAR upgradation is being carrined out along with.
it requires a well informed person from PAF to update on this!

Arsalan Aslam


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## Najam Khan

On a different note, Sargodha has F16 Upgrade cell responsible for doing both structural & avionics maintenance/upgrade. Also, all PAF F16 engine have been upgraded from F100 PW220 to F100 PW220E at PAC, Kamra. A total of 26 modifications are done....the performance of F100 PW220E is very much better than its previous variant.

Recently the F16s which participated in Izmir/Al-Saqoor-II were flying with F100 PW220E.

Because of influence of China in PAF, US Govt didn't allow Pakistan to have Falcon-Up program at PAC Lockheed Martin & TAI were given contract.

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## fatman17

Aamir Hussain said:


> BTW
> 
> 
> "With the recent acquisitions of F-16s, Lockheed Martin plans to sustain production on the F-16 line at Ft. Worth beyond 2010. Major upgrades for all F-16 versions are being incorporated to keep the fleet modern and fully supportable over the aircraft&#8217;s long service life. As all F-16 blocks, recent production blocks of the F-16 such as Block 50, 52 and 60 are also designed, from the ground up, with enough growth potential in weight growth, cabling, data connectivity and capacity, electrical power, and physical space, to enable growth throughout a life span of 40 years and beyond. Utilization of standard interfaces such as 1760, 1553 and the new FiberChannel five channels, Gigabit rate databus, enable rapid interfacing and data sharing throughout the aircraft systems. In addition to the production programs, Lockheed Martin has incorporated a "roadmap of convergence" for F-16 upgrades and production aircraft, consisting of an integrated plan that will result in maximum commonality throughout the fleet."



LM still manufacturing new blk-52's for morrocco, turkey and is pushing the US govt to approve sales to taiwan and iraq. hence the F-16 program will continue for a while.

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## Aamir Hussain

arsalanaslam123 said:


> yes the STAR upgards were planned with Turkey and now with Turkey winning a contract for MLU of PAF F-16 with US supplierd kit, there is ever possibility that STAR upgradation is being carrined out along with.
> it requires a well informed person from PAF to update on this!
> 
> Arsalan Aslam


 
"Lead the Fleet" aircraft for Falcon UP and MLU are already in US . LM, after a close study of these aircrafts has sold package/kits to Pakistan for upgrades incorporating these structural change/enhancment elements as well. PAF had a bare minimum requirment laid out from their side over and above the standard airframe life and avionics/systmes upgrades. These are not major elements but more peculiar ot PAF requirment, operating conditions and pilot interfaces (Man-machine interfaces)

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## Aamir Hussain

Morocco is having it sweet these days from Uncle Sam along with Tunisia and Egypt.


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## alimobin memon

Can someone tell me list of Air to Air missile of pakistan airforce please!!


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## Mabs

air marshal said:


> *Today In History - June 7, 2002:* PAF F-16 piloted by Squadron Leader Zulfiqar and Squadron Leader Afzal (GIBS) of No. 9 MR Squadron 'Griffins' destroy an intruding UAV (Searcher-II) of IAF on the night, during Ops Sentinel. This was the first kill of a UAV by any fighter aircraft in the world.


 
My Checha was the ATC on duty on this fateful night who steered the vipers onto the target. He narrated the whole story to me and it was fascinating to know it all right from the source. I will ask him to pen it down and send it to me for all to know what really went down that night.


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## Silk

Nice pic from PD


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## fatman17

Mabs said:


> My Checha was the ATC on duty on this fateful night who steered the vipers onto the target. He narrated the whole story to me and it was fascinating to know it all right from the source. *I will ask him to pen it down and send it to me for all to know what really went down that night*.



any update


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## Last Hope

ISLAMABAD: The US has decided to supply two P3C Orion aircraft to Pakistan to replace the aircraft that were destroyed in the PNS Mehran attack on May 22nd, diplomatic sources told DawnNews.


*According to sources, the US will also be supplying F-16 aircraft and its spare parts.*

Moreover, it is also expected that the chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen will soon be visiting Pakistan to convey US President Barrack Obama&#8217;s message, sources added.

Official sources had earlier told Dawn that the destruction of the two four-engine all-weather P3C Orion aircraft would temporarily affect the Pakistan Navy&#8217;s counter-terrorism and surface and underwater reconnaissance operations.

The aircraft is designed for surface and underwater reconnaissance and anti-submarine and anti-surface vessel operations. It is rated as the fastest turbo-prop long-range maritime patrol (LRMP) platform used worldwide and is also called the airborne destroyer.

The aircraft is 116 feet long and has a maximum speed of 410 knots. Its distinguishing features are long endurance, multiple role capability, variety of integrated sensors and above all the capacity to carry a wide array of anti-surface and subsurface weapons such as harpoon, torpedoes, depth charges, mines and rockets. It can fly a mission of at least 18 hours.

More US F-16s on the way? I hope this proposal or the 'idea' gets rejected.
After WoT, no more spare parts for the 16s, means we are just buying scrap


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## epinephrine

WE SHOULDN'T GO FOR F-16S ANY MORE.THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A HEADACHE FOR PAKISTAN N WILL REMAIN SO WHEN USA PULLS OUT OF AFGHANISTAN.


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## Last Hope

Exactly. One US is gone from Afghanistan, the F-16s wont last more than a year.
And we had a plan for fleet of 14 F-16s (Maybe Block 50/52+) which was overlooked after shipment of the recent 17 (out of 18 F-16s Block 52+).

Seems like they got aware that US will soon pull out and what will happen to the F-16s.
Must head towards JF-17 and J-10Bs_. (Inside news suggest interest in J-15s, not confirmed)_


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## epinephrine

I DON'T KNOW Y PAF IS SO MUCH OBSESSED WITH F-16S.IMPROVED VERSION OF JF-17 N J-10S N LATER ON J-20S SEEM TO BE THE BEST AVAILABLE OPTIONS FOR PAF


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## Silk

It is not obsessed. The plane is good and PAF knows it inside out. They have around 70 so getting enough spares to keep them up in the air is a smart strategy. If we buy time with that we can get more evolved FC20 or other options. Surely we all like PAF to be better etc but there are no better alternatives now. Not if you do not have as much to spend as you like.

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## alimobin memon

maybe you guys are dumb f16 might be beneficial to airforce requirements which we don't understand!!


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## Pfpilot

I am one of the scores of Pakistanis who grew up hearing of the greatness of the f-16 and it has a certain aura in our nation...so naturally people, including the military leadership, get carried away whenever they are offered. A great aircraft, the very definition of multirole, produced in numbers so it is well priced...and it has shown itself to be a very able aircraft. 
On the other hand, the way Pakistanis keep flip flopping between being friends with the US and just annoying the US, we can never be sure if the spares will come, but I cant claim its unfair...we have shown ourselves to be very untrustworthy allies, who may have lost many people to terrorism, but only because our leadership sacrificed them for their "genius" plan of playing both sides.


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## mirage 5000

say no to more F-16 
say no to more F-16 
say no to more F-16 
say no to more F-16


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## DANGER-ZONE

Never mind, PAF higher officials wont take a look at your suggestions and requests. They will prefer, no, LOVE TO ACQUIRE busted old F-16s.


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## razgriz19

if more f-16s are offered through some aid program (free) then PAF should totally go for them!
if PAF wouldto buy them then its a no no!

if they are free,we would be able to use them in future (once US abandon us) for spare parts to keep our inventory alive!


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## razgriz19

danger-zone said:


> Never mind, PAF higher officials wont take a look at your suggestions and requests. They will prefer, no, LOVE TO ACQUIRE busted old F-16s.


 
maybe busted for you! but its the best aircraft in our current inventory! (block 52 atleast)


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## DANGER-ZONE

razgriz19 said:


> if more f-16s are offered through some aid program (free) then PAF should totally go for them!
> if PAF wouldto buy them then its a no no!
> 
> if they are free,we would be able to use them in future (once US abandon us) for spare parts to keep our inventory alive!


hello waeky wakey ..... nothing is coming free here. 
Either you have to exchange your territory, sovereignty or your People, WAKE UP DEAD NATION.
Go suck on your shiny F-16 B-52 and fly it being a Slave not a Pilot.

they will not give it free of cost at all. 
Try to live on your own not on AID. purchase parts or old F-16 from them for existing F-16 fleet, by your own money. 
If they do not agree on this SAY GOOD BYE.


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## Last Hope

danger-zone said:


> hello waeky wakey ..... nothing is coming free here.
> Either you have to exchange your territory, sovereignty or your People, WAKE UP DEAD NATION.
> Go suck on your shiny F-16 B-52 and fly it being a Slave not a Pilot.
> 
> they will not give it free of cost at all.
> Try to live on your own not on AID. purchase parts or old F-16 from them for existing F-16 fleet, by your own money.
> If they do not agree on this SAY GOOD BYE.


 
Although your points are correct to an extend, you must _please_ mind your words.
Have you ever looked at what the F-16s did? Shot down Russians, fought Indians and F-16s are the ones we scrammble always. Look at PAF without F-16s.


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## Silk

It is not the plane that makes the difference.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Last Hope said:


> Although your points are correct to an extend, you must _please_ mind your words.
> Have you ever looked at what the F-16s did? Shot down Russians, fought Indians and F-16s are the ones we scrammble always. Look at PAF without F-16s.


 


Silk said:


> It is not the plane that makes the difference.



maturely described in one line by SILK.


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## Mabs

fatman17 said:


> any update


 
He's working on it and I don't wana rush him as I requested him to make it very detailed.

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## razgriz19

Silk said:


> It is not the plane that makes the difference.


 
not so accurate...
its the combination of good men and machine which makes the difference...
u cant fight an f-22 with a f-86 sabre!


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## razgriz19

danger-zone said:


> hello waeky wakey ..... nothing is coming free here.
> Either you have to exchange your territory, sovereignty or your People, WAKE UP DEAD NATION.
> Go suck on your shiny F-16 B-52 and fly it being a Slave not a Pilot.
> 
> they will not give it free of cost at all.
> Try to live on your own not on AID. purchase parts or old F-16 from them for existing F-16 fleet, by your own money.
> If they do not agree on this SAY GOOD BYE.


 
....if wars were won by morals, and emotions then palestine would have been free today!
wake up, this is reality. u either just follow the world or become another north korea!


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## VelocuR

Mind you: razgriz19 is in poor arguments, he doesn't know what he is discussing or unaware of JFT involvements in FATA. Nice avatar. 
*
This F-16 Block 52s, we paid it, not free!!!!!!!! Pls don't jump to Uncle Sam's lap, kid !*

On topic, PAF will likely to refuse it. It is just US's statement offering more F-16s and its spares, nothing confirmed else.


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## araz

razgriz19 said:


> if more f-16s are offered through some aid program (free) then PAF should totally go for them!
> if PAF wouldto buy them then its a no no!
> 
> if they are free,we would be able to use them in future (once US abandon us) for spare parts to keep our inventory alive!


 I would agree. Acquiring Old MLUBl15s has advantages for us in many ways. Even if we were to chose J10/FC20s today, it would take 3 yrs to deliver and another 12 to 18 months to set the infra structure and learn to know the aircraft. We dont have the money for that in any case. F16s would come sooner and can be MLUed at our own leasure.We know the aircraft well and are happy for it. I understand people's reservations but it is a necessity and we need a quick fix for our obsolete fleet.Commonality of platforms has its own advantages in case of adverse outcomes as well.
Araz

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## khurasaan1

I guess we shold get rid of US F-16nz anymore requirement and move on to next generation aircrafts....


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## khurasaan1

RaptorRX707 said:


> Mind you: razgriz19 is in poor arguments, he doesn't know what he is discussing or unaware of JFT involvements in FATA. Nice avatar.
> *
> This F-16 Block 52s, we paid it, not free!!!!!!!! Pls don't jump to Uncle Sam's lap, kid !*
> 
> On topic, PAF will likely to refuse it. It is just US's statement offering more F-16s and its spares, nothing confirmed else.


Thnx US...... we dont need nomore urz aircrafts....... Alhamdolillah.......


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## khurasaan1

razgriz19 said:


> ....if wars were won by morals, and emotions then palestine would have been free today!
> wake up, this is reality. u either just follow the world or become another north korea!


 
U shold not denounce N.Korea.....is a great country standing on its feet with freedom and dignity.....
or u want to be the slaves......of US/West.................


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## araz

razgriz19 said:


> ....if wars were won by morals, and emotions then palestine would have been free today!
> wake up, this is reality. u either just follow the world or become another north korea!


I think I see logic in both yours and DZ's posts. However, the actual ideal situation needs to lie somewhere in between. In answer to DZ's post a counter question needs to be asked. If you go to the chinese (assuming them to be the alternative source of inventory) do you think they will not extract a price for a favour? The answer is a big fat yes!! So what is different between US and China.? 
What one needs to understand is that it is simply a question of how you argue your case and what you are able to give in return for the favour.If the cost id not too much, you have to accede till such time you are in a situation to independently and without any pressure willing to say Yes or No.Till that time it is just a case of how well you negotiate.
Araz


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## epinephrine

F-16 IS NO DOUBT ONE OF THE LEGENDS IN AVIATION HISTORY.RULED THE SKIES ALMOST FOR 30 YEARS.NOW THE WORLD HAS BEEN ABLE TO DEVELOP JETS WHICH R EQUALLY GOOD OR SLIGHTLY BETTER THEN F-16.STILL BLK 52 N BLK 60 F-16S CAN SHOOT DOWN ANY 4TH GEN JET IN THE WORLD BUT THE QUESTION IS THAT IS IT SUITABLE FOR PAK TO GO FOR MORE F-16S???
IF THE PAKISTANI F-16S HAVE SO MUCH RESTRICTIONS OVER THEM AS STATED IN THAT VIPER PILOT INTERVIEW THEN I THINK 18 ADVANCED F-16S R GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE TALIBANS.WE DONT NEED MORE.AND IF WE ARE ALLOWED TO USE THEM AGAINST IAF IN ANY FUTURE WAR ON OUR WISHES THEN I THINK WE SHOULD GO FOR ANOTHER 18.
PERSONALLY I CANT UNDERSTAND THE PURPOSE OF BUYING THE WORLD'S MOST ADVANCED AMRAAM IN A LARGE QUANTITY IF WE CAN NOT USE THEM AGAINST ANY OPPOSING AIR FORCE.


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## fatman17

khurasaan1 said:


> U shold not denounce N.Korea.....is a great country standing on *its feet with freedom and dignity.....*or u want to be the slaves......of US/West.................



where people go hungry except those that belong to the communist party, NKarmy - which one gets to see on TV!!!


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## razgriz19

^^^ thats exactly what my point was. 

and "RaptorRX707",

i never said said we got blk 52s for free!
i said *IF* they offer us more aircrafts (older ones probably) through some aid program then we should get them. keeping in mind that US is retiring its old fleet of f-16s, they could offer those aircrafts to us in order to make us take strict action in FATA and waziristan, etc.

our gov is already doing almost everything that US is asking for..
and besides sooner or later we would have to go to war to wipe out militancy from our tribal belt and bajaur region.


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## razgriz19

khurasaan1 said:


> U shold not denounce N.Korea.....is a great country standing on its feet with freedom and dignity.....
> or u want to be the slaves......of US/West.................


 
my friend dignity does not satisfy hunger! people in N.K are living in very harsh conditions, trust me you dont wanna be one of those people....
and about "freedom" well i would recommend you to do some research on this topic!


btw i understand what your saying there, but the reality is we need US..
if they leave afghanistan now, we will be in for some serious trouble!

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## SBD-3

Some pods used on F-16 hope you guys will find this info useful

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## Areesh

Thanks Hasnain it was a great info.

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## razgriz19

did we recieve any sniper pods and AMRAAMs for blk-52s?


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## SBD-3

Info about various blocks (Block 25 Onwards)

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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> did we recieve any sniper pods and AMRAAMs for blk-52s?



in process!!!


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## Najam Khan

razgriz19 said:


> did we recieve any sniper pods and AMRAAMs for blk-52s?


 
First batch of AMRAAMs were received in end of last year. Sniper and DB110 will be received soon.


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## Najam Khan

some pictures shared by a subscriber of PAFwallpapers.

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## SBD-3



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## SBD-3



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## bc040400065




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## Silk

One was not there for upgradation but for testing purpose. The planes are tested and delivered but some equipment or weapons still needed to be tested. Same happened with Block 60 of the UAE. They kept some planes to be tested while most of them were delivered so UAE could start pilots training. Now we probably will see AMRAAM, HMS etc be part of the Block52 in PAF service. Maybe I read the text wrong...

I am looking forward to the first MLU F16 in Turkey. Should be almost ready. And I am still looking for the MLU'ed planes in USA. It takes decades. How come the Turkish started already MLU on PAF f16 while we hear nothing from those in USA for MLU testing?


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## MZUBAIR

razgriz19 said:


> did we recieve any sniper pods and AMRAAMs for blk-52s?


 
Yes, Sinper PODS and 500 AMRAAM's recieved with first batch of Blk 52 in late months of 2010.


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## MZUBAIR

I dont think PAF will but any new F-16 in future.
I think they shld only invest (efforts, resources, relations with USA, and money ofcourse) on MLU's on 32 Aircrafts


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## Najam Khan

F16 is one of those a/c in which pilot actually sees his landing spot,in some a/c pilot barely sees it....The AOA for landing should be 11 or 13 degree, increasing it may cause some serious problems...depending upon the a/c configuration. Looking out from the cockpit & judging the height is an old tip which is still used around the world.

Some pic taken by GIBS during landing apporach.

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## nightcrawler

> F16 is one of those a/c in which pilot actually sees his landing spot,in some a/c pilot barely sees it...


Sir when I moved from my age-old Charade car (in which I can see the road just below my front) to Honda:


I can barely see the road infront of me & dogs/cat well...thy were usually get crushed when driving highway. But with the passage of time driver get accustomed so can be a pilot


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## fatman17

nightcrawler said:


> Sir when I moved from my age-old Charade car (in which I can see the road just below my front) to Honda:
> 
> 
> I can barely see the road infront of me & dogs/cat well...thy were usually get crushed when driving highway. But with the passage of time driver get accustomed so can be a pilot



nice car mate! congrats!

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## Najam Khan

nightcrawler said:


> Sir when I moved from my age-old Charade car (in which I can see the road just below my front) to Honda:
> I can barely see the road infront of me & dogs/cat well...thy were usually get crushed when driving highway. But with the passage of time driver get accustomed so can be a pilot


 
Yes one do get accustomed with passage of time, but in the mean time he goes through alot of things...flying is a very serious business, with no margin of error...one can't get away from mission debrief meetings. Flight Cmdr (training) are very strict in maintaining the defined standards. In PAF, the attrition rate of pilots decreases after the leave No.1 FCU, checking all parameters before making a landing approach becomes a part of pilot's life...he can barely forget what he is taught at BFT/AJT/FCU/OCU.

PAF Academy Risalpur maintains a very strict training procedure. If a trainee makes one wrong landing he is warned, second time he is almost thrashed, third he is grounded.

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## MZUBAIR

Any news abt F16 A/B MLU program.

We were expecting 18th Block 52 Aircraft to be arrived after Software Upgradation???? Any updates?


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## fatman17

MZUBAIR said:


> Any news abt F16 A/B MLU program.
> 
> We were expecting 18th Block 52 Aircraft to be arrived after Software Upgradation???? Any updates?



we'll start receiving the MLU's in 2012. 4 from the US are due in Q-1-2012.

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## Najam Khan

fatman17 said:


> we'll start receiving the MLU's in 2012. 4 from the US are due in Q-1-2012.


 
3 are in Turkey too. MLUed F16 is an altogether different a/c.The question is which Sqn will run MLU conversion course after their delivery....11 Sqn already has too much responsibility they can't run two types of conversion courses at one time. IMO 9 or 14 are good contenders for it.


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## Manticore

f16 speed variations

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## TOPGUN

Is there any reports on getting used f-16 blocks from the US and hence iam not talking about buying new block 52's but used older blocks?


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## Windjammer

---------- Post added at 08:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 PM ----------

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## TOPGUN

Windjammer said:


> ---------- Post added at 08:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 PM ----------



Lovely pic's bro you made my day thx


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## Manticore

red flag/green flag pic


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## mirage 5000




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## CallsignAlzaeem

Windjammer said:


> ---------- Post added at 08:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 PM ----------


 
I have got some more let me upload them.


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## CallsignAlzaeem

---------- Post added at 09:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 PM ----------







---------- Post added at 09:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 PM ----------

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## CallsignAlzaeem

Sajid Bhai

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## SBD-3

Windjammer said:


> ---------- Post added at 08:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 PM ----------


 
GUB-10 or higher?


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## Windjammer

hasnain0099 said:


> GUB-10 or higher?


 
Since these are training manoeuvres, it looks more like a GBU-12, but that's just my assumption.

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## Jango

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> Sajid Bhai


 
this pilot is not neccesarily Sajid Bhai. The names of the pilots of the squadron are written on all the aaircrafts of the squadron. The plane is not specific to the pilot whose name is written on the plane. Hope this clears it.


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## CallsignAlzaeem

nuclearpak said:


> this pilot is not neccesarily Sajid Bhai. The names of the pilots of the squadron are written on all the aaircrafts of the squadron. The plane is not specific to the pilot whose name is written on the plane. Hope this clears it.


 
Thanks for your concern but i know who was in the cockpit at that time.

---------- Post added at 12:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 PM ----------







---------- Post added at 12:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 PM ----------


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## DANGER-ZONE

hasnain0099 said:


> *GUB-10 or higher*?


 


Windjammer said:


> Since these are training manoeuvres, it looks more like a GBU-12, but that's just my assumption.


 
GBU - 12 for sure.
See the area of front controlling fins, compare it with GBU series in orange image. Small rectangular type of fins, it is GBU-12.
GBU-10 and larger LGBs have larger Controlling fins.


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## bigest

By upgrading F16,US can influence Pakistan military greatly.


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## Najam Khan

mirage 5000 said:


>


 
PAF used this same pod at Red Flag too. ATLIS-II is in service since 1985, its first operational use was at HighMark 1989.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

*Here PAF's f-16 (801) pending delivery, is undergoing testing for GBU-24. *

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## Last Hope

*PAF F-16 Block 52 

Serial#10801, with AGM-65 Maverick air-to-ground missile, AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advance Targeting pod and AIM-9M Sidewinder missile*








*
Other pics got from Abu Zolfiqar:*

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## razgriz19

are there any pictures of AMRAAMs on our f-16s??
like from testing phase or something....


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## Last Hope

razgriz19 said:


> are there any pictures of AMRAAMs on our f-16s??
> like from testing phase or something....


 
I guess I have seen them somewhere. Let me search and post.

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## fatman17

BTW, 250 rounds of the AIM-120C5 have been delivered as of end June. additionally only 25 rounds of the SD-10A have been delivered so far. (PAF source)

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## MZUBAIR

fatman17 said:


> BTW, 250 rounds of the AIM-120C5 have been delivered as of end June. additionally only 25 rounds of the SD-10A have been delivered so far. (PAF source)


 
Wt does *rounds mean*, if it means a pieace of missile then we have only 250 + 25 = 275 BVR.. 

Too low....
I remember in Dec 2010 Chief of Airfrce Qamar Salaman told an interview that PAF got all 500 AIM 120C5 missiles and they are tested.

Followin was the news of August 2010

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## Last Hope

*Sorry I couldn't find the PAF F-16 with AMRAAM. But I found these:









(Is the second image true or Photoshopped? Was a Block 30 delivered in 2010 along Block 52s? I dont think so)*

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## krash

Last Hope said:


> *Sorry I couldn't find the PAF F-16 with AMRAAM. But I found these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Is the second image true or Photoshopped? Was a Block 30 delivered in 2010 along Block 52s? I dont think so)*


 
Its not photoshoped I dont see any block 30 in that pic these are 2 block 52+ Cs and 1 52+ D.

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## Mindfreak103

Paf is really a force which could very well find its place in the top 20 air forces of the planet


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## fatman17

MZUBAIR said:


> Wt does *rounds mean*, if it means a pieace of missile then we have only 250 + 25 = 275 BVR..
> 
> Too low....
> I remember in Dec 2010 Chief of Airfrce Qamar Salaman told an interview that PAF got all 500 AIM 120C5 missiles and they are tested.
> 
> Followin was the news of August 2010



pakistan's order of 500 rounds of the AIM-120C5/7 was the largest ever single order placed with the manufacturer Raytheon.

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## Najam Khan

fatman17 said:


> BTW, 250 rounds of the AIM-120C5 have been delivered as of end June. additionally only 25 rounds of the SD-10A have been delivered so far. (PAF source)


 
Is there any news of PAF receiving LAU-128 or 129A/A missile rail launchers too? On F16/F15 sidewinder's MRLs(128) can work too. AIM-9X requires LAU-128 where as AIM-9 L/M/P requires LAU-114.

LAU-114





LAU-128 works for both AMRAAM and AIM-9X, i am sure PAF have opted for it,integrating various types of equipment needs operator's(enggineers) training and distribution of funds too...for us spare's future is always a question mark.


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## DANGER-ZONE

danger-zone said:


> *Here PAF's f-16 (801) pending delivery, is undergoing testing for GBU-24. *


 
So the GBU-24 was in the deal .... ! 
i never read that any where, in any article. No i am curious to know about rumoured JSOW. 
is that also a reality ?


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## fatman17

NAjAM Khan said:


> Is there any news of PAF receiving LAU-128 or 129A/A missile rail launchers too? On F16/F15 sidewinder's MRLs(128) can work too. AIM-9X requires LAU-128 where as AIM-9 L/M/P requires LAU-114.
> 
> LAU-114
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LAU-128 works for both AMRAAM and AIM-9X, i am sure PAF have opted for it,integrating various types of equipment needs operator's(enggineers) training and distribution of funds too...for us spare's future is always a question mark.



for some odd reason the 9x is not released to the PAF. my assumtion is that the US was waiting on the result of the indian mmrca selection. maybe now they will consider.


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## air marshal

_*June 2011: The induction of new F-16's Block 52 in No. 5 squadron based at PAF Base Jacobabad.*_


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## air marshal

_*June 2011: FALCON AT FULL THROTTLE: The F-16 boosts forward with its afterburners activated displaying a beautiful pattern behind.*_


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## khurasaan1

When we gonna get the other 250 AMRAAMs from the US ...????


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## Manticore

i found an old article spanning on 6pages , which ive just posted here
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/109797-paf-f-16-photos-thread-4.html#post1903788

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## Manticore

0n 50years of 11sqn

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## Manticore

Stealth Fighters and Bombers: China and the World / The Quest for Superpower Status





amraam

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## notorious_eagle

Heres some more, first official picture with the JHMCS. What a beauty this plane is 





With an American trainer




These are training rounds of AIM9M and AIM120C


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## mirage 5000

now whats remaining for indian members ? amraam - JHM -smiper pod-CFT all come out .


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## TOPGUN

ANTIBODY said:


> Stealth Fighters and Bombers: China and the World / The Quest for Superpower Status
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amraam


 
Now finally my day is better thanks so much for posting the pic's you made my day what a deadly beauty with those missles love it.

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## Last Hope

mirage 5000 said:


> now whats remaining for indian members ? amraam - JHM -smiper pod-CFT all come out .


(STEALTH) JF-17 II


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## Last Hope



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## MZUBAIR

Last Hope said:


> (STEALTH) JF-17 II


 
Quality is not issue we need Quantity.

We need 300+ 4th or 4th gen + aircrafts. ~1000 BVR's.

We already have short range missiles....may be we are developing vairents South African short range missiles.


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## razgriz19

ANTIBODY said:


> Stealth Fighters and Bombers: China and the World / The Quest for Superpower Status
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> amraam


 
u made my day!


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## VelocuR

It is lovely planes, though US and Pakistan's strained relationship, should we order more F16 Blk 52 ? do we have to obey US and then get more F-16s exchanges?


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## MZUBAIR

RaptorRX707 said:


> It is lovely planes, though US and Pakistan's strained relationship, should we order more F16 Blk 52 ? do we have to obey US and then get more F-16s exchanges?


 
PAF hav no plan to buy more ......PAF will only recieve 18th left Blk52 aircraft this month and Upgrade old 32 F-16's to Blk 52 in 2012.
*PAF future will be based on F16 Blk52, JF-17 Blk I & II & J10B.*


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## khurasaan1

okay ! nice pics guyz......


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## mirage 5000

RaptorRX707 said:


> It is lovely planes, though US and Pakistan's strained relationship, should we order more F16 Blk 52 ? do we have to obey US and then get more F-16s exchanges?


 
not only obey dear but you have to do much more dirty job .


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## TOPGUN

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF hav no plan to buy more ......PAF will only recieve 18th left Blk52 aircraft this month and Upgrade old 32 F-16's to Blk 52 in 2012.
> *PAF future will be based on F16 Blk52, JF-17 Blk I & II & J10B.*


 
Agreed brother but he is talking about the 18 more blk 52's on option to buy ...


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## khurasaan1

RaptorRX707 said:


> It is lovely planes, though US and Pakistan's strained relationship, should we order more F16 Blk 52 ? do we have to obey US and then get more F-16s exchanges?


 No....No....Cant do this kinda blunder in our whole life......These toyz more than enough for us..........umm.....


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## TOPGUN

razgriz19 said:


> u made my day!


 
Wow hence notice fully loaded to max love it


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## razgriz19

^ YUP! =D

um how many JDAMs did PAF order?? 
in the picture it looks like f-16 is carrying a 1000lb JDAM...


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## Windjammer

*I believe the pilot in the front is wearing a JHMCS.*

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## Manticore

Windjammer said:


> *I believe the pilot in the front is wearing a JHMCS.*


 
Note Sniper ATP mounted on the starboard engine inlet pylon.

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## ice_man

what is with the moustache of both the pilots?

& why are insigna patches different on their shoulder???


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## hatf IX

Windjammer said:


> *I believe the pilot in the front is wearing a JHMCS.*


 


ANTIBODY said:


> Note Sniper ATP mounted on the starboard engine inlet pylon.


 
really you made my day . . . . . . .


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## Najam Khan

razgriz19 said:


> ^ YUP! =D
> 
> um how many JDAMs did PAF order??
> in the picture it looks like f-16 is carrying a 1000lb JDAM...


 
We have ordered 500 JDAMs, seen above is GBU38 500lbs bomb with JDAM kit. GBU31 is even more deadly weapon with 2000lbs of 'goodies' for enemies.


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## Najam Khan

Stay tuned guys lots of more will be coming here...

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## Windjammer

NAjAM Khan said:


> Stay tuned guys lots of more will be coming here...


 
What's with the PAF and the brick based hangars, even if they don't get a direct hit, the falling massionary still could cause some damage.


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> What's with the PAF and the brick based hangars, even if they don't get a direct hit, the falling massionary still could cause some damage.


 
good question.


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## razgriz19

Windjammer said:


> What's with the PAF and the brick based hangars, even if they don't get a direct hit, the falling massionary still could cause some damage.


 
well these are the newly built hangers for BLOCK 52 specially, so just assume they are much stronger than they look!
but i agree with you..


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## Windjammer

razgriz19 said:


> well *these are the newly built hangers for BLOCK 52 specially,* so just assume they are much stronger than they look!
> but i agree with you..


 
This is why it's all the more confusing, even the 20 feet divider walls are made of Bricks, even if a rocket hits them, there'll be pieces flying everywhere.


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## Manticore

im no engineer but i think such a u -shape construction is more strong in the centre , as compared to conventions box shaped cabins/hangers


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## razgriz19

Windjammer said:


> This is why it's all the more confusing, even the 20 feet divider walls are made of Bricks, even if a rocket hits them, there'll be pieces flying everywhere.


 
good point. maybe its one of the old hangers that were built for mirages...
but im pretty sure some hangers were upgraded or were newly built for f-16s


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## Windjammer

ANTIBODY said:


> im no engineer but i think such a u -shape construction is more strong in the centre , as compared to conventions box shaped cabins/hangers


 It's not the question of being stronger in the middle or on the sides, the idea is not to bring down a whole hangar but rather to penetrate it and hit the assets underneath.
A penetrator type weapon just needs to make a neat hole in the roof.
Even a country like Poland has adopted NATO standard Hangars for it's F-16s.


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## gambit

ANTIBODY said:


> im no engineer but i think such a u -shape construction is more strong in the centre , as compared to conventions box shaped cabins/hangers


Explosions, just like electricity, always prefer the path of least resistance. Hangars are constructed with sloped sides so that any proximate explosions, meaning not direct hits, will have their blast forces redirected upward. A direct hit does not guarantee penetration also because of those sloped sides. The weapon's angle of approach would have to be perpendicular, or very close to perpendicular, to the surface. That is why hangars are much more difficult to destroy than perceived. Can be done, just more difficult.

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## gambit

Windjammer said:


> What's with the PAF and the *brick based hangars*, even if they don't get a direct hit, the falling massionary still could cause some damage.


They are not, at least I hope that they are not. Hardened Aircraft Shelters (HAS) are built with steel arches then often covered with earth, a layer of masonry, both, and if possible, allow grass to grow over.


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## CallsignAlzaeem




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## Kompromat

JHMCS:


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## khurasaan1

gambit said:


> They are not, at least I hope that they are not. Hardened Aircraft Shelters (HAS) are built with steel arches then often covered with earth, a layer of masonry, both, and if possible, allow grass to grow over.


 
and what if they get direct hit.....???...........
Oh! sorry I got my answer in ure above post....yes u explained it above very well...
but Im thinking isn't it better to have underground hangerz instead of above ground...to reduce anykinda risk during war etc.....


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## razgriz19

khurasaan1 said:


> and what if they get direct hit.....???...........
> Oh! sorry I got my answer in ure above post....yes u explained it above very well...
> but Im thinking isn't it better to have underground hangerz instead of above ground...to reduce anykinda risk during war etc.....


 
underground hangers?
underground hangers will cost more to build than the aircraft it self.

not sure if thats a good idea...


----------



## untitled

NAjAM Khan said:


> Stay tuned guys lots of more will be coming here...


 
Why have the numbers been blacked out.... our policy or the Americans insisted.

LAST PIC..... That panel on the CFT.... Many a time I have mistaken it for the star of David on Pakistani and Singaporean F-16s


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## SQ8

The Hanger is made from Steel and concrete... the masonry work is the outer layer.


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## VelocuR

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF hav no plan to buy more ......PAF will only recieve 18th left Blk52 aircraft this month and Upgrade old 32 F-16's to Blk 52 in 2012.
> *PAF future will be based on F16 Blk52, JF-17 Blk I & II & J10B.*


 
Yes, that's correct. I hope that F-16 Blk 52 must reach 100-150 inventory. I know we are so excited new-looking F-16s w/ CFT inducting in PAF, everyone cheering but at the same time we hate US and we love F-16s. 



mirage 5000 said:


> not only obey dear but you have to do much more dirty job .



Yes, why not. Zardari is still President now til next election, Zardari should beg more F-16s Blk 52 in exchange dirty jobs and comissions. A small number of 18 (Blk 52) is not enough to protect sky. 
*
Actually I think twice, once Pakistan receive these new F-16 Blk 52s with CFT, US then make fun of Pakistan in Abbottabad raid, Davis, media propagandas, more killing, drones expansion, blame games, etc.*


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## TOPGUN

I might be wrong but i still think that PAF will try to get more vipers if not new then surplus ones lets see what they have on their minds once again i could be wrong or am i.


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## anathema

NAjAM Khan said:


> Stay tuned guys lots of more will be coming here...


 
Amazing snap....Bubble canopy is a piece of art....


----------



## TVVELVEMO$

I congratulate PAF in particular & Pakistan in general on becoming the proud owners of such awesome machines. Pakistan just renewed its membership into an elite club of Falcon User nations. I have no doubt that PAF personnel will put these extremely capable and well-equipped vipers to very good use in defence of their Nation. 

On Mr. Zardari; as long as he retains leadership of Peoples Party he is likely to keep his post. I surmise this simply because his party is more than likely to prevail in the next election. No other party has that kind of national stature or the numbers. 

Back to thread topic. After Lockheed Martin shutters its plant it may source a good deal of work of spares & maintenance elsewhere. PAF + PAC-K might want to get in on the action.


----------



## fatman17

*Only the spirit of attack,
born in a brave heart,
will bring success
to any fighter aircraft,
no matter how highly developed
it may be.* 
-- Lt. General Adolph Galland 
General of the Fighter Arm, Luftwaffe, 1941-45 
104 Victories

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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer

*Men Behind The Scene*

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## TOPGUN

Windjammer said:


> *Men Behind The Scene*


 
Windjammer bro you have just offically made my day i just love the pic's becuase i just love this bird thanks so much and keep up the good work.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


>



there should be GBU-24 instead of old LGB GBU-10. i guess PAF haven't received them yet. ?


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## khurasaan1

I guess I dont like F-16nz anymore but the JF17 and J-10z......Alhamdolillah......


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## Windjammer



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## Last Hope

Why do they have to censor the serial number of the bird?


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## Windjammer

Last Hope said:


> Why do they have to censor the serial number of the bird?


 
Israelis did the same, possibly to confuse the prying eyes as to how many birds are in service...... why does one get the feeling that the PAF may end up with more than the documented numbers. ??


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## Manticore



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## Windjammer

ANTIBODY said:


>


 
*Is that JDAM or GBU being kitted out .?*


----------



## TOPGUN

Windjammer said:


> Israelis did the same, possibly to confuse the prying eyes as to how many birds are in service...... why does one get the feeling that the PAF may end up with more than the documented numbers. ??


 
Thats right thats what my feeling is as well also i had asked my dads good friend who is ex retd wing commander and he stated to that it is very possible but again we have to wait and see.


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## razgriz19

Windjammer said:


> *Is that JDAM or GBU being kitted out .?*



JDAM is in one of the picture you posted in your previous posts, i believe f-16 is carrying them on pulon 3 and 7.
and yes it looks like a GBU kit


----------



## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Israelis did the same, possibly to confuse the prying eyes as to how many birds are in service...... why does one get the feeling that the PAF may end up with more than the documented numbers. ??


 
Funny though.. there are sites that have all the serial numbers on them.
It may also be a move to mask operational usage.
So if a particular serial number is asked to move to an FOB on an AHQ paper, and if enemy gets that intel , how does one know what jet has gone there?

is 10-859 a F-16 Block 52, or is at a JF-17?


----------



## SBD-3

a new development in JHMCS


> The Royal Danish Air Force (RDAF) has conducted the first operational flight of the night vision cueing and display / aviator's night vision imaging system (NVCD/ANVIS) in an F-16 MLU M5 configuration aircraft.
> 
> The operational flight of NVCD/ANVIS, developed by Vision Systems International (VSI), was conducted as part of Operation Unified Protector in Libya.
> 
> The NVCD/ANVIS, based on ANVIS-F4949 night vision goggles (NVGs), is an additional capability to the joint helmet-mounted cueing system (JHMCS) to allow the cueing of weapons and sensors at night.
> 
> VSI president Drew Brugal said the system had been validated and matured to successfully execute air-to-air and air-to-ground tactical missions at night.
> 
> The RDAF are participating in the UN enforcement of the no fly zone in Libya.


----------



## Windjammer

Santro said:


> Funny though.. there are sites that have all the serial numbers on them.
> It may also be a move to mask operational usage.
> So if a particular serial number is asked to move to an FOB on an AHQ paper, and if enemy gets that intel , how does one know what jet has gone there?
> 
> is 10-859 a F-16 Block 52, or is at a JF-17?


 
Agreed and logically correct but one wonders why just one squadron would be singled out for the confidential measures. ??


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Agreed and logically correct but one wonders why just one squadron would be singled out for the confidential measures. ??


 
The S/N are all there..

Aircraft	T/V Local S/N	AF/Unit	Version	Date	Status Details
07-0006	JE-6	Delivered:	10906 F-16C Block 52	Unknown	[act] Details
Current:	10906 F-16C Block 52	30 Oct 2010	[act] 
07-0007	JE-7	Delivered:	10907 F-16C Block 52	Unknown	[act] Details
Current:	10907 F-16C Block 52	20 Nov 2010	[act] 
07-0008	JE-8	Delivered:	10908 F-16C Block 52	Unknown	[act] Details
Current:	10908 F-16C Block 52	20 Nov 2010	[act] 
07-0009	JE-9	Delivered:	10909 F-16C Block 52	Unknown	[act] Details
Current:	10909 F-16C Block 52	20 Nov 2010	[act] 
07-0010	JE-10	Delivered:	10910 F-16C Block 52	Unknown	[act] Details
Current:	10910 F-16C Block 52	20 Nov 2010	[act] 
07-0011	JE-11	Delivered:	10911 F-16C Block 52	Unknown	[act] Details
Current:	10911 F-16C Block 52	13 Dec 2010	[act] 
07-0012	JE-12	Delivered:	10912 F-16C Block 52	Unknown	[act] Details
Current:	10912 F-16C Block 52	13 Dec 2010	[act] 
07-0013	JF-1	Delivered:	10801 F-16D Block 52	Unknown	[act] Details
Current:	10801 F-16D Block 52	Unknown	[act] 
07-0014	JF-2	Delivered:	10802 F-16D Block 52	Unknown	[act] Details
Current:	10802 F-16D Block 52	13 Dec 2010	[act] 
07-0015	JF-3	Delivered:	10803 F-16D Block 52	Unknown	[act] Details
Current:	10803 F-16D Block 52	20 Nov 2010	[act] 
07-0016	JF-4	Delivered:	10804 F-16D Block 52	Unknown	[act] Details
Current:	10804 F-16D Block 52	27 Jun 2010	[act] 
07-0017	JF-5	Delivered:	10805 F-16D Block 52	Unknown	[act] Details
Current:	10805 F-16D Block 52	27 Jun 2010	[act] 
07-0018	JF-6	Delivered:	10806 F-16D Block 52	Unknown	[act] Details
Current:	10806 F-16D Block 52	30 Oct 2010	[act] 

Its when they are deployed is when its best kept secret.
Although I suppose that by blanking it out in the photo the source is being cautious.

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## M8R

With AMRAAM

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## fatman17

*ITT to supply electronic countermeasure pods to Pakistan*

Jon Grevatt Asia-Pacific Industry Reporter - Bangkok

James Hardy Asia-Pacific Editor - London


The US Air Force has awarded ITT Systems a USD49 million fixed-price contract to supply Pakistan with electronic countermeasure pods to equip its fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft, it was announced on 5 July. 

The Foreign Military Sale (FMS) consists of 18 ITT AN/ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) pods as well as associated equipment and data. 

The AN/ALQ-211 pod is a modular system incorporating passive and active radio frequency (RF) subsystems designed to provide 'precision' radar warning, threat geolocation, situational awareness and electronic warfare suite control capabilities. The AN/ALQ-211(V) 9 variant provides digital radar warning and 'high-power' jamming. 

COMMENT 

The purchase of the electronic countermeasure pods is likely to ensure that older versions of the F-16 in service with the Pakistan Air Force are compatible with the 18 new F-16 Block 52 aircraft that were delivered from June 2010 until March 2011. 

Pakistan first requested the pods in 2008. At the time, the US Defense Security Co-operation Agency (DSCA) said in a statement: "The release of the AIDEWS equipment to Pakistan will neither affect the regional balance of power nor introduce new technology as this level of capability or higher already exists in other countries in the region." The US has previously justified upgrades to Pakistan's F-16 fleet by citing their role in counter-insurgency operations in the Afghan border region.

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## razgriz19

um after recieving the upgrades, will our blk-15s be able to carry these new pods??? lets say sniper? or is it just exclusively for blk-52s....?


----------



## SBD-3

razgriz19 said:


> um after recieving the upgrades, will our blk-15s be able to carry these new pods??? lets say sniper? or is it just exclusively for blk-52s....?


If my memory is correct PAF's MLU are M5 MLU upgardes. I suspect, Sniper pox will be integratable to MLUs 
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article2.html
http://www.f-16.net/news_article1730.html

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## Pfpilot

Thank you for your highly interesting insight into the state of our f-16....may I propose you observe and read before making comments that only make you look less intelligent...just advice.


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## fatman17

*$5.1B Proposed in Sales, Upgrades, Weapons for Pakistans F-16s*
UPDATE

Jul 06, 2011 

On June 28/06, the US DSCA notified Congress via a series of releases of its intention to provide Pakistan with a $5.1 billion Foreign Military Sales package to upgrade the F-16s that serve as the PAFs top of the line fighters. Some of these items had been put on hold following the October 2005 earthquake in Pakistan & Kashmir, but the request for 36 new F-16 Block 50/52s is now going ahead, along with new weapons, engine modifications, and upgrade kits for Pakistans older F-16 A/Bs. The buy went through, and was accompanied by the supply of 26 older F-16s from USAF surplus stocks.

These items are detailed below, along with controversies the proposed sales have created, and some of the conditions attached to the sale by the US government

Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s  $3 billion 
Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s  $650 Million 
Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits  $1.3 billion 
Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR  $151 Million 
Deal Updates and Progress [updated] 
Potential Controversies (July 5, 2006) 
Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s  $3 billion


PAF F-16D Block 52
The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of up to 36 F-16C Block 50 and F-16D Block 52 two-seater aircraft  a buy of 18 jets, with an option for another 18. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $3 billion.

The planes will be equipped with the APG-68(V)9 radars, which are the most modern F-16 radar except for the UAEs F-16E/F Block 60 Desert Falcons and their AN/APG-80 AESA. The engine contract was less certain. Pakistans existing F-16s use the Pratt & Whitney F100 engine, the new planes involved a competition between Pratt & Whitneys F100-PW-229 or General Electrics F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs). Pratt & Whitney kept their customer, and supplied the new F-16s with their F100-PW-229 EEP variant. 

The package for Pakistans new F-16s also includes:

7 spare F100-PW-229 EEP or F110-GE-129 IPE engines (F100-PW-229 EEP selected) 
7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets 
36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS) 
36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II 
36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircrafts sides to give them extra range 
36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; see tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems 
36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems 
36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems 
36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare (ALQ-211 AIDEW) Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (picked); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM 
1 Unit Level Trainer 

Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability. 

The principal contractors under Pakistans Peace Drive buy will be: 

Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, TX 
Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control, Dallas, TX 
BAE Advanced Systems Greenlawn, NY 
Boeing Corporation Seattle, WA 
Boeing Integrated Defense Systems: St Louis, MO; Long Beach, CA; San Diego, CA 
Raytheon Company: Lexington, MA; Goleta, CA 
Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, AZ 
Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX 
Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD 
United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT; or 
General Electric Aircraft Engines in Cincinnati, OH 

There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support and program management of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF]. 

Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s  $650 Million 

To equip those new F-16s, the Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:

500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) 
12 AMRAAM training missiles  these have seeker warheads but lack engines 
200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X. 
240 LAU-129/A Launchers  these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles. 
500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits 
1,600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 (500 lb.) and GBU-24s (2,000 lb.) with dual laser/GPS guidance 
800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs 
700 BLU-109 2,000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse 

Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability will also be provided. 

The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $650 million. The principal contractors will be: 

BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY 
Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX 
Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX 
Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX 
Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD 

There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF format].

Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits  $1.3 billion

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of: 

APG-68v9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar, which is a much smaller improvement on earlier F-16s. The APG-68 with SAR is far better at air to ground work, and can be used to monitor ground activity. 

Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS) 
AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems 
AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems 
Have Quick I/II Radios 
Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT) 
SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability 
Reconnaissance pod capability 
Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (used for training exercises) 
MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits 
21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM; 
60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems; 
1 Unit Level Trainer; and 
10 APG-68v9 spare radar sets. 

Radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support. 

JHMCSThe total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $1.3 billion.

According to the US DSCA, Pakistan intends to purchase the MLU Program equipment to enhance survivability, communications connectivity, and extend the useful life of its F-16A/B fighter aircraft. The modifications and upgrades in this proposed sale will permit Pakistans F-16A/B squadron to operate safely, and enhance Pakistans conventional deterrent capability. Pakistans air fleet can readily use these updates to enhance and extend the life of its aircraft.

The principal contractors will be: 

BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY 
Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX 
Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX 
Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX 
Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD 

There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives. See DSCA release [PDF].

InsideDefense.com makes the interesting observation that Pakistan doesnt have 60 F-16s to upgrade. The clear implication is that the Pakistani government is interested in buying used F-16s and upgrading them, which proved to be the case. As part of the deal for new planes, in Sept 30/06 the USA also agreed to deliver 26 of the Peace Gate III/IV F-16A/B Block 15OCUs that had been ordered in 1988-1989, then embargoed when Pakistan tested nuclear weapons. After the embargo, the planes had been diverted for use as aggressor combat training aircraft by USAF and the US Navy.

Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR  $151 Million

F100 Engine TestThe third contract involves Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million. 

More specifically, the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of:

14 F100-PW-220E engines 
14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits 
De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft 
Support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program. 

The principal contractors will be: 

Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX 
United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT. 
There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale, but implementation of the engine modifications and UP/STAR repairs will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF].

Deal Updates and Progress

PAF F-16A
July 5/11: ITT Systems Corp. in Clifton, NJ receives a not to exceed $49.1 million firm-fixed-price contract for the ALQ-211v9 AIDEW Pod, which was picked as the electronic countermeasures choice for Pakistans new F-16C/D Block 52s, and is also on the list for its upgraded F-16s. This award fits the new fighter order, and includes 18 pods, 4 pod shells, 2 antenna coupler sets, 2 lab test benches, associated data, and systems software and support equipment. 

Work will be performed at Clifton, N.J. This contract is a Foreign Military Sales requirement for Pakistan, managed by the WR-ALC/GRWKBat Robins Air Force Base, GA (FA8540-11-C-0012). See also June 26/08 entry.

March 1/11: Aviation Week reports that Pakistan is in negotiations with the U.S. to get more Lockheed Martin F-16s over and above the 63 currently in service (18 F-16C/D Block 52, 45 F-16A/B Blocck 15/OCU that will be upgraded). No numbers have been specified, by Pakistani officials see it as part of a dual-track strategy that will also include more spending on domestic projects like the JF-17 Thunder, to improve Pakistans own manufacturing capacity.

At present, PAF Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleman says that 4 F-16A/Bs went to the USA for technical verification inspections and upgrade kit development, and the 1st 3 F-16A/Bs are now undergoing the upgrade at Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). All of Pakistans F-16s are expected to be upgraded by 2013-2014. At present, no systems exist that would bridge the F-16 and JF-17 fleets, but Air Chief Marshall Suleman says that Pakistan intends to eventually field a supplementary datalink, which would work alongside the Link 16 systems carried by the F-16s.

The comments come as the Pakistani military is also discussing a deal to buy Chinese submarines as a supplement to their French Agosta-class boats, as an intended prelude to joint submarine development. These plans are all being made against a backdrop of a serious domestic insurgency and widespread flooding damage, which have combined to create over 1 million internal refugees, and threaten the governments medium term ability to maintain control of the country. Even as the state is very obviously fraying in other ways.

Jan 20/11: Goodrich Corporation of Chelmsford, MA receives a $71.9 million contract for 5 DB-110 Pods, 2 datalink upgrades to existing pods, 2 fixed ground stations, 1 mobile ground station, and 4 ground station datalink receiver kits, plus initial spares, technical manuals, minimal initial engineering support for final in-country installation, integration, testing and a study for a potential fusion center. This supports Pakistani F-16 aircraft. At this time, $17.3 million has been committed by the ASC/WINK at Wright-Patterson Air Force, OH on behalf of their Foreign Military Sale client (FA8620-11-C-3006).

The DB-110 reconnaissance pod offers day and night capabilities, and has been ordered by a number of F-16 customers, including Egypt, Greece, Morocco, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, and the UAE. DB-110s were not mentioned in the DSCA upgrade requests, but they are clearly part of that effort now. Reports indicate that installations began in June 2010; this is apparently a follow-on order. A Jan 12/11 US FedBizOpps solicitation for associated imagery analysis training is a useful reminder that buying the pods is not enough to field a useful capability. See also Aviation Week re: DB-110.

Dec 13/10: The last batch of 6 F-16 Block 52s arrive a bit early at Shahbaz AB, after a stop over at Lajes Field, Azores. This finishes the 18-plane order. F-16.NET.

Nov 20/10: Another 6 new F-16 Block 52s land at the Shahbaz airbase near Jacobabad, in Pakistans Sindh province. That makes 12 so far, and another batch of 6 F-16 C/D Block 52s are expected to arrive in December 2010, to finish the initial 18-plane order. Pakistans DAWN | Associated Press of Pakistan | Daily Times | The Nation | Pak Tribune | IANS.

Oct 30/10: Another 3 new F-16 Block 52 aircraft are handed over at an induction ceremony at Shahbaz Air Base near Jacobabad, Pakistan. This is the 2nd batch of new F-16s delivered, and all 18 fighter aircraft are expected to arrive by January 2012.

In addition to the delivery of these new aircraft, the U.S. is working with the PAF to update 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the U.S. Foreign Military Financing security assistance program. The first batch of updated F-16s is scheduled to arrive in Pakistan in early 2012. US CENTCOM.

July 27/10: The Press Trust of India reports that the first AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles have arrived in Pakistan, and will equip the new F-16C/D block 52s. PTI.

June 24/10: The Pentagon announces that it will deliver the first 3 new F-16 Block 52s in Pakistan on June 26/10, with the other 15 arriving during 2010-2011. USAF Maj. Todd Robbins, the the office of the undersecretary of the Air Force for international affairs Pakistan country director, is quoted saying that Pakistan is paying $1.4 billion for the 18 new F-16 Block 52s. Theyre also paying $1.3 billion for upgrades to its existing F-16 fleet, which are to begin delivery in 2012.

The new F-16s will add night, all-weather, and precision-attack capabilities, and Pakistani pilots have been training at Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson, including night-attack training. The PAF recently completed training for 4 instructors and 5 flight leads (q.v. May 5/10 entry). The US Embassy in Islamabad later cited June 27/10 as the day of the formal induction ceremony.

Beyond the F-16s, the USA has provided over $4 billion in assistance over the last 3 years. The USA and Pakistan are working to address the current deficit of trust, which has begun to repair itself since Pakistans government became more serious about fighting al-Qaeda and the Taliban in Pakistan. In March 2010, the United States and Pakistan held their first ministerial-level strategic dialogue in Washington, DC, co-chaired by US Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and Pakistani Foreign Minister Makhdoom Shah Mahmood Qureshi. High-level officials from both governments participated in the dialogue, including Secretary of Defense Gates and Navy Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Follow-up meetings took place in Pakistan in early June 2010.

June 14/10: A report in Indias Samay Live says that Pakistan will face strict monitoring of its new F-16s, and quotes United States Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asia, Robert Blake. Samay Live states that:

Sources said the US Air Force personnel will arrive during the delivery of the F-16s and supervise not only the air base where they will be deployed but also the operations carried out by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) against the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Though the jets will be flown by PAF pilots, the logistics, management and control of the F-16s will be with the US personnel. The [18] Block 50/52 model F-16 jets equipped with latest missiles will arrive at the Shahbaz Airbase in Jacoabad in the last week of June

*Readers are cautioned that this description may be an overstatement or misunderstanding of normal support and inspection provisions; without a firm statement from an identifiable individual, its hard to tell*.

May 21/10: Lockheed Aeronautics in Fort Worth, TX receives a $325.5 million contract to develop, integrate and deliver 53 F-16 upgrade kits: 35 mid-life upgrade kits for Pakistani F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft, and 18 retrofit kits for Pakistani F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft. 

At this time, $121.2 million has been committed by the 312th AESG/SYK at Wright-Patterson AFB, OH, who manages these efforts on Pakistans behalf (FA8615-07-C-6032).

May 4/10: Eight Pakistani F-16 A/B pilots graduate from training at Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ, flying US Air National Guard F-16 C/D Block 25s. They are the first Pakistani pilots to train in the United States since 1983. Their training involves 2 1/2 months reviewing military aviation terminology at the Defense Language Institute at Lackland Air Force Base, TX; 7 months of flight training at Tucson International Airport, including a transition course, flight lead upgrade training, and instructor pilot certification; and 2 weeks of additional F-16 Block 52 instruction. The schedule was compressed, and the pilots flew 5 flights per week, instead of the usual 3. 

Pakistani air force Wing Commander Ghazanfar Latif cited to the ability to run precision engagements and attack at night as key difference from the F-16 hes been flying for the last 12 years, capabilities that can lower collateral damage. The flip side was cited by Squadron Leader Yasir Malik: the need to manage and prioritize all that additional information from the radar, datalinks, and other sensors, which was a key part of their training. Their instructors in this effort included USAF flight commander Maj. Windy Hendrick, and her compatriots in the 162nd Fighter Wing. USAF.

Nov 16/09: Pratt & Whitney announces that they have delivered the first F100-PW-229 Engine Enhancement Package (EEP) engine to Pakistan, for installation in their F-16 Block 52 aircraft. The engine program is valued at approximately $150 million, and is scheduled for delivery in 2009 and 2010.

The F100-PW-229 EEP is the latest evolution of the F100 engine family, with features designed to reduce scheduled engine maintenance by up to 30%, by extending the depot inspection interval from 4300  6000 TACs.

Oct 13/09: Lockheed Martin unveils the first of 18 new PAF F-16s in ceremonies at its Fort Worth, TX facility. Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Chief of Staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Quamar Suleman accepted the F-16D Block 52 aircraft on behalf of his nation, as the first delivery of the Peace Drive I order. It will be delivered to the US government for transfer in December 2009, with the remainder of the order following in 2010. See also Flight International, which has video.

July 29/08: Pakistans request to transfer 2/3 of its anti-terrorism aid to fund its F-16 program meets strong resistance from the US Congress.

June 28/08: In a ceremony at Mushaf Air Base in Pakistan, Acting Commander of US Central Command, Lt. Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, hands over 4 excess defense article F-16 fighter from the USAF to Pakistan Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed. The US DSCA release says that:

F-16s continue to hold a special place in the U.S.  Pakistani security relationship. The four EDA aircraft are part of a larger package of 14 aircraft. With the most recent delivery, the USAF has transferred eight aircraft to Pakistan. Another four EDA F-16 aircraft are scheduled to arrive in Pakistan on 28 July 2008. The final two aircraft are part of the Pakistan Mid-Life Update program and will arrive in Pakistan in December 2011. The entire F-16 program for Pakistan includes the purchase of eighteen F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft, MLU for 46 aircraft, and a munitions package that includes AMRAAM, JDAM, and Enhanced Paveway guidance kits.

June 26/08: The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency announces [PDF format] Pakistans official request for 21 AN/ALQ-211v9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) Pods, plus software support, repair and return, spare and repair parts, support equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related elements of program support. The estimated cost is $75 million. 

Pakistan intends to purchase the AIDEWS pods to enhance its existing F-16 fighter aircraft, and create fleet commonality with its new F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft. See also our March 19/08 entry; the original DSCA bulletin for mid-life upgrades had mentioned AN/ ALQ-131 or AN/ALQ-148 pods instead.

The principal contractor will be ITT Corporation of Clifton, NJ. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and ITT representatives for technical reviews, support, and program management over a period of up to 15 years.

June 4/08: The Associated Press of Pakistan reports that Pakistan has already received 2 refurbished F-16s, and is due to receive 4 more in June and another 4 in July, bringing the total to 10.

April 18/08: Lockheed Martin Aeronautics of Fort Worth, TX received a modified contract for $31.5 million, covering one-time engineering activity for aircraft production program changes for the Peace Drive I (Pakistan) program for foreign military sales F-16 Block 52M aircraft. At this time $15.75 million has been obligated. Wright-Patterson AFB, OH issued the contract (FA8615-07-C-6031, P00005).

April 18/08: Lockheed Martin Aeronautics of Fort Worth, TX received a modified firm fixed price contract for $27 million, covering one-time engineering activity for developmental support equipment and country standard technical order for the Peace Drive I (Pakistan) Program for foreign military sales F-16 Block 52M aircraft. At this time $13.5 million has been obligated. Wright-Patterson AFB, OH issued the contract (FA8615-07-C-6031, P00004).

March 19/08: ITT Avionics of Clifton, NJ received a modified firm fixed price contract for $78.2 million for Foreign Military Sales of the ALQ-211v4 Advanced Integrated Defense Electronics Warfare system to the country of Pakistan, for use on the F-16 aircraft being procured under separate acquisition by the F-16 program office. The contract also includes associated spares, support equipment, training, engineering services, and flight test support and data, and $39 million has been obligated so far. Robins AFB, GA issued the contracts (FA8523-07-C-0008-PZ0001).

The DefenseLINK announcement was wrong in several respects. It has been corrected above, and Robins AFBs PA office offers further background, which connects it to the overlapping March 30/07 announcement:

Contract FA8523-07-C-0008 was awarded in March 2007 to ITT in Clifton NJ. The obligated funds on the initial contract was $39 mil. The contract was modified in March 2008 to add the additional funds Of $39.2 mil and to definitize all outstanding contract requirements. This was not a new award, the contract was awarded in March 2007.

Dec 31/07: Lockheed Martin Aeronautics of Fort Worth, TX received a firm-fixed-price contract modification for $498.2 million, covering Foreign Military Sales of 12 new F-16C Block 52 and 6 new 2-seat F-16D Block 52 new aircraft to Pakistan. At this time, $497.6 million has been obligated. Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, OH issued the contract (FA8615-07-C-6031-P0002). 

Dec 14/07: Raytheon Missile Systems of Tucson, AZ received a firm fixed price contract for $161.3 million. This action provides 300 miscellaneous unit air foil groups, 300 miscellaneous armament unit enhanced computer control groups, 1,298 weapon guidance unit computer control groups, 1,300 stabilizing and retarding unit air foil groups, 600 global positioning system adapter kits, 1 lot enhanced Paveway III and test equipment spares, 1 lot enhanced Paveway II, 700 certain adapter groups, 6 readiness test set, 6 bomb tool kits, 3 lots of enhanced Paveway tool sets, 3 each common munitions bit/reprogramming equipment adapter kits, 1 each mission planning software, 1 lot DATA. This effort supports foreign military sales to Pakistan. At this time $75.7 million has been obligated. The 784th Combat Sustainment Group (AFMC) at Hill Air Force Base, UT issued the contract (FA8213-08-C-0028).

Enhanced Paveways use a combination of laser and GPS/INS guidance. The laser designator offers better accuracy, and is compatible with targeting pods like Pakistans forthcoming Sniper ATPs. GPS/INS benefits include the ability to function through fog, dust storms, clouds, smoke, or other obscurants, and can be employed in the absence of a laser designator as long as Global Positioning System coordinates are available for the target.

April 27/07: Pakistan orders 22 of Lockheed Martins AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods under a $54.6 million firm-fixed-price contract. Since Raytheons ATFLIR is only integrated with F/A-18s, and Northrop Grummans LITENING AT is a joint development with Israels RAFAEL, the choice is not surprising. Sniper pods have also been referred to as PANTERA pods in the past. See Pakistan Joins List of Sniper ATP Customers for more.

March 30/07: ITT Avionics in Clifton, NJ received a $78 million firm-fixed-price and time and materials contract for Foreign Military Sales of the AN/ALQ-173 (V) advanced integrated defense electronics warfare to the country of Pakistan. Associated spares, support equipment, training, engineering services, flight test support and data are also being acquired. Solicitations began February 2007, negotiations were complete March 2007, and work will be complete January 2010. The Headquarters Warner Robins Air Logistics Center at Robins Air Force Base, GA issued the contract (FA8523-07-C-0008).

Oddly enough, the AN/ALQ-173 was not among the many internal ECM alternatives listed in the official US DSCA announcement.

Dec 5/06: Lockheed Martin Corp. in Fort Worth, TX received a $144 million firm-fixed-price and time and materials contract for 12 operational single place F-16C Block 52 aircraft and 6 operational two place F-16D Block 52+ aircraft. This will begin readying materials to manufacture the aircraft, and $78.4 million has been obligated at this time. Aircraft purchases will be accomplished under the firm-fixed price portion of the contract, and work will be complete by November 2010. The Headquarters Aeronautical Systems Center at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, OH issued the contract (FA8615-07-C-6031).

Nov 17/06: Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, AZ received a $269.6 million firm-fixed-price contract modification, exercising an option to purchase 500 AIM-120C5 AMRAAM missiles and rehost on behalf of Pakistan (100%). Work will be complete April 2011. The Headquarters Medium Range Missile System Group at Eglin Air Force Base, FL issued the contract (FA8675-05-C-0070/P00028).

Nov 15/06: Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems in Linthicum Heights, MD received half of a $99.5 million firm-fixed-price contract for government furnished property for the Government of Pakistan under the F-16 Block 50/52 new aircraft and modernization program. The procurement of 54 AN/APG-68 (V)9 Radar Systems will be accomplished under the firm-fixed-price portion of the contract. A January 10, 2007 Northrop Grumman release clarifies: this order is for 52 systems (18 new + 34 upgrade kits), with a 44 radar option to follow (18 new + 26 upgrade kits).

Oct 2/06: India Defence reports that Pakistan and USA have signed a letter of acceptance for these deals, following a Sept 30/06 ceremony in Rawalpindi were Pakistans military is headquartered. It said that the United States will supply 18 new F-16 aircraft, as well as an unspecified number of upgraded second-hand F-16s. Previous reports have said the number of second hand aircraft Pakistan was considering buying was 36, which would make for 18 of each.

India Defence adds that Both sides had expected to wrap up the deal a month earlier, but negotiations dragged on because of strings Washington wanted attached. The USA has clear concerns regarding technology transfer from the F-16s or associated weapons it sells to 3rd countries like China, which has close military ties with Pakistan.While the US was reluctant to discuss details, Assistant Secretary of State for political-military affairs John Hillen was more open with Congress on July 20/06.

In his testimony to the House of Representatives International Relations Committee, Hillen reportedly said that the United States was withholding unspecified technologies that would usually go with an F-16, including ones that would let it be used in offensive ways to penetrate air space of another country that was highly defended. It added that Pakistans F-16 fleet and its munitions would be segregated from aircraft supplied by other countries, so that unauthorized engineers could not get access to the U.S.-made planes, and that U.S. personnel would carry out inventories of the F-16s and their associated systems every 6 months. There had even been a proposal that F-16 flights outside Pakistani air space, including for exercises with other countries, would have to be approved by the U.S. government in advance. It is not clear whether this requirement ever got beyond the proposal stage.

As part of the deal, the USA also agreed to deliver 26 of the Peace Gate III/IV F-16A/B Block 15OCUs that had been ordered in 1988-1989, then embargoed when Pakistan tested nuclear weapons. The planes had been diverted for use as aggressor combat training aircraft by USAF and the US Navy. Source.

July 20/06: Heres the first concerned speech from an opposed Congressman: Eliot Engel [D-NY], citing Pakistans support for terrorism in India. Mr Engel is a senior member of the House International Relations Committee, and was one of the first Members of Congress to come out in favour of the proposed India-US nuclear energy deal. Hell be making his views public at the July 20, 2006 House International Relations Committee hearing on the Pakistan sales  and that meeting will tell us if opposition to the deal has real traction.

Potential Controversies: July 2006


ISAF, S. Afghanistan
(click to view full)The DSCA has said that Release of this system would not significantly reduce Indias quantitative or qualitative military advantage. India disagrees, and military experts in Delhi will likely note that the same equipment (GPS, targeting pods, bunker-busters) that could potentially find uses against al-Qaeda terrorists in Pakistans lawless frontier could also be used in precision strikes on Indias military facilities in the event of war.

The DSCA counters that release of the F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft to Pakistan will neither affect the regional balance of power nor introduce a new technology as this level of capability or higher already exists in other countries in the region. India does operate more advanced SU-30MKI aircraft with R-77 AMRAAMski missiles, advanced avionics, et. al.; these are superior in range, armament, and maneuverability to Pakistans F-16s, and will remain so. Meanwhile, Indias $7-10 billion MRCA competition is certain to introduce 125-200 aircraft that are certain to be more advanced than the F-16 Block 50/52.

The US DSCA adds in its submission to Congress that The modification of the engines and Falcon UP/STAR structural updates will provide capable F-16s that can be used for close air support in ongoing operations contributing to the GWOT (Global War On Terror). The DSCA also cites the June 2004 designation of Pakistan as a Major Non-North Atlantic Treaty Organization Ally in its submission. The British commander of NATOs ISAF force in Southern Afghanistan sees Pakistans role in a rather different light, however; he recently noted that al-Qaeda in Afghanistan is still run out of Pakistan (specifically Quetta), with Pakistani knowledge and even support from Islamist elements in its security apparatus. Ah, the dynamics of counter-insurgency in tribal societies. Pakistan angrily denies this, of course.

Indias objections to this sale have been muted thus far, and phrased carefully to emphasize their effect on India-Pakistan ties rather than India-US ties. Meanwhile, President Bushs personal diplomacy approach has fostered a strong relationship with Gen. Musharraf that is inclined to view such requests favorably as part of the USAs 3-corner balancing act in the region. Barring unusual circumstances, therefore, its reasonable to expect this sale to go through with little more than a concerned speech or two in Congress.

December 2007 Update: 

The sale did go through with little more than concerned speeches in Congress, though there have been ongoing efforts to pressure the Pakistani government via threats of delayed or canceled weapon sales, due in large part to the security situation across the de facto line of government/ al-Qaeda control in western Pakistan.

The Benazir Bhutto assassination, and the strong likelihood that the Bhuttos PPP party will ascend to power following the coming Pakistani election, is also likely to remove some of the pressure the US Congress has been placing on Pakistan. In the short term, a delay in the elections could result in symbolic weapons sales delays until elections are held, while construction of the F-16s et. al. continues for delivery after that date anyway. Once those elections are held, a combination of sympathy and diplomatic imperatives are likely to mute further resistance to weapons sales in the US Congress. 

It remains less clear whether Asif Ali Zardari Mr. 10% Bhuttos ascension to power will successfully address that countrys ongoing civil war  and what that will mean in a year or two, when the jets are due to be delivered.

Additional Readings

Pakistan Air Force. Official web site. 
Wikipedia  Pakistan Air Force. Very good reference. 
Absolute Astronomy  F-16 Fighting Falcon. The best source for distinguishing the F-16s wide array of variants, and what that means for the aircrafts capabilities. 
F-16.NET  Pakistan Fizaya/ Pakistan Air Force  PAF 
DID  Pakistan & Chinas JF-17 Fighter Program. The F-16s counterpart in the future PAF, which will also include the more advanced Chinese JF-20. 
Tags: pakistanf-16, pakf-16

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## Windjammer

Santro said:


> Its when they are deployed is when its best kept secret.
> Although I suppose that by blanking it out in the photo the source is being cautious.


 
Seems the blank out exercise has proved effective...... you missed out on the remaining five. 

On a side note, initially it was said that, due to extra drag, CFTs would only be deployed on special missions, however, now it seems to be a regular feature. I am all for it.


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Seems the blank out exercise has proved effective...... you missed out on the remaining five.
> 
> On a side note, initially it was said that, due to extra drag, CFTs would only be deployed on special missions, however, now it seems to be a regular feature. I am all for it.


 
May have to do with the long drawn out procedure (relatively) to take CFT's on and off.
And considering the op req of the Block 52's.. I think its appropriate.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


> *Is that JDAM or GBU being kitted out .?*


 
it is GBU - 12.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Self deleted . !


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## Last Hope

AN-ALQ-211 v9 Pod Open Cover1






AN-ALQ-211 v9 Pod CLOSED Cover2

By Jon Grevatt and James Hardy

The US Air Force has awarded ITT Systems a USD49 million fixed-price contract to supply Pakistan with electronic countermeasure pods to equip its fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft, it was announced on 5 July.

The Foreign Military Sale (FMS) consists of 18 ITT AN/ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) pods as well as associated equipment and data.

The AN/ALQ-211 pod is a modular system incorporating passive and active radio frequency (RF) subsystems designed to provide 'precision' radar warning, threat geolocation, situational awareness and electronic warfare suite control capabilities. The AN/ALQ-211(V) 9 variant provides digital radar warning and 'high-power' jamming.

COMMENT

The purchase of the electronic countermeasure pods is likely to ensure that older versions of the F-16 in service with the Pakistan Air Force are compatible with the 18 new F-16 Block 52 aircraft that were delivered from June 2010 until March 2011.

Pakistan first requested the pods in 2008. At the time, the US Defense Security Co-operation Agency (DSCA) said in a statement: "The release of the AIDEWS equipment to Pakistan will neither affect the regional balance of power nor introduce new technology as this level of capability or higher already exists in other countries in the region." The US has previously justified upgrades to Pakistan's F-16 fleet by citing their role in counter-insurgency operations in the Afghan border region.

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## Bratva

In short, F-16 EW Suite will not contain DFRM, and India was offered DFRM. What is American grudge against us?


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## SQ8

mafiya said:


> In short, F-16 EW Suite will not contain DFRM, and India was offered DFRM. What is American grudge against us?


 
making sure that in a war with India.. YOU LOSE!.

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## Nav

July 5/11: ITT Systems Corp. in Clifton, NJ receives a not to exceed $49.1 million firm-fixed-price contract for the ALQ-211v9 AIDEW Pod, which was picked as the electronic countermeasures choice forPakistans new F-16C/D Block 52s, and is also on the list for its upgraded F-16s. This award fits the new fighter order, and includes 18 pods, 4 pod shells, 2 antenna coupler sets, 2 lab test benches, associated data, and systems software and support equipment.
Work will be performed at Clifton, N.J. This contract is a Foreign Military Sales requirement for Pakistan, managed by the WR-ALC/GRWKBat Robins AirForce Base, GA


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## TOPGUN

Question for Fatman thx for the list you listed above great info ... however do we know if the BLU-109 bunker buster bombs have been delivered to us?


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## abaseen99

Jul 7, 2011




The US Air Force has awarded ITT Systems a USD49 million fixed-price contract to supply Pakistan with electronic countermeasure pods to equip its fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft.
The Foreign Military Sale (FMS) consists of 18 ITT AN/ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) pods as well as associated equipment and data.
The AN/ALQ-211 pod is a modular system incorporating passive and active radio frequency (RF) subsystems designed to provide &#8216;precision&#8217; radar warning, threat geolocation, situational awareness and electronic warfare suite control capabilities. The AN/ALQ-211(V) 9 variant provides digital radar warning and &#8216;high-power&#8217; jamming.
The purchase of the electronic countermeasure pods is likely to ensure that older versions of the F-16 in service with the Pakistan Air Force are compatible with the 18 new F-16 Block 52 aircraft that were delivered from June 2010 until March 2011

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## Windjammer



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## khanasifm

PAF Block 52 have ITT AN/ALQ-211 (V) 4 which are not podded version but rather internal system.


"F-16s for Chile and Pakistan are fitted with the ITT AN/ALQ-211 (V) 4 electronic warfare suite."

F-16 Fighting Falcon Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft - Air Force Technology

ITT AN/ALQ-211 (V) 9 is podded version for PAF Older F-16 A/B

ITT - Suite Integration


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## S_O_C_O_M

*ITT to supply Electronic Countermeasure pods to Pakistan's F16 jets​*
Thursday, July 7, 2011






The US Air Force has awarded ITT Systems a USD49 million fixed-price contract to supply Pakistan with electronic countermeasure pods to equip its fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft, it was announced on 5 July.

The Foreign Military Sale (FMS) consists of 18 ITT AN/ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) pods as well as associated equipment and data.

The AN/ALQ-211 pod is a modular system incorporating passive and active radio frequency (RF) subsystems designed to provide 'precision' radar warning, threat geolocation, situational awareness and electronic warfare suite control capabilities. The AN/ALQ-211(V) 9 variant provides digital radar warning and 'high-power' jamming.

The purchase of the electronic countermeasure pods is likely to ensure that older versions of the F-16 in service with the Pakistan Air Force are compatible with the 18 new F-16 Block 52 aircraft that were delivered from June 2010 until March 2011.


Read more: ITT to supply Electronic Countermeasure pods to Pakistan's F16 jets ~ Terminal X ITT to supply Electronic Countermeasure pods to Pakistan's F16 jets ~ Terminal X


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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> Question for Fatman thx for the list you listed above great info ... however do we know if the BLU-109 bunker buster bombs have been delivered to us?



no but the chinese are developing a similar type!

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## Xracer2

GREAT


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## truthseeker2010

Is the weapon carrying capacity i.e payload of all F-16 models same?


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## Windjammer



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## Last Hope

Seems like 5th Squad have the Block 52s and CFTs. Then even have AMRAAMs and JDAMs. Where is this Squadron situated? Where is the base?


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## Windjammer



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## Manticore



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## Last Hope

Windjammer said:


>



Behold! Here comes the great, the number one Water Mark removed on the forum! 





(PS. If you look carefully, you may see the water mark was tampered )

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## Windjammer

Last Hope said:


> Seems like 5th Squad have the Block 52s and CFTs. Then even have AMRAAMs and JDAMs. Where is this Squadron situated? Where is the base?


 
No 5 Squadron is stationed at Shabaz Airbase in Jacobabad.

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## DANGER-ZONE

As I could remember, there were some geniuses who claimed that "CFT PRODUCE EXTRA DRAG", thats why they were not fitted to birds in the early days of Block-52 induction and also claimed that PAF pilots might use them occasionally. 
So is this a catwalk show for desperate fans or those members were wrong ?


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## razgriz19

im pretty sure these fighters wont be seeing any action in WoT.
otherwise they would have to fly half way around the country to drop bombs...

thunders are based in peshawar, they can do the job.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

They can take care of terror on other side of border


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## Last Hope

Windjammer said:


>


 
Look at the date. '2009-11-16'.
They have the 10801 for a long time now, how many tests will they run on it? We saw it with JDAMs too.
Will it ever get delivered before it is too late?!


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## Tshering22

razgriz19 said:


> im pretty sure these fighters wont be seeing any action in WoT.
> otherwise they would have to fly half way around the country to drop bombs...
> 
> thunders are based in peshawar, they can do the job.


 
Bad idea bro. Good if the Americans were not there for you, but not good especially considering that fighter sorties normally take shape during a full blown war. Pounding your border with bombs will only drive the Alliance against you. With Artillery shelling itself there's so much of noise; fighters would totally get this out of control.

---------- Post added at 08:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 PM ----------




Last Hope said:


> Behold! Here comes the great, the number one Water Mark removed on the forum!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (PS. If you look carefully, you may see the water mark was tampered )


 
SO they finally attached the CFTs to your Falcons eh? Wasn't there some issue sometime back where US was refusing to add them up?


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## SBD-3

Last Hope said:


> Look at the date. '2009-11-16'.
> They have the 10801 for a long time now, how many tests will they run on it? We saw it with JDAMs too.
> Will it ever get delivered before it is too late?!


 Isnt that Mavrick missile?


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## mirage 5000

Tshering22 said:


> ---------- Post added at 08:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:17 PM ----------
> 
> [/COLOR]
> 
> SO they finally attached the CFTs to your Falcons eh? Wasn't there some issue sometime back where US was refusing to add them up?


 
not US issue dear indian members was dreaming at day light that we got falcons without CFT JDAM AMRAAM GBUs sniper pods lolz.only indian members and indian forums have that issue


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## SBD-3

mirage 5000 said:


> not US issue dear indian members was dreaming at day light that we got falcons without CFT JDAM AMRAAM GBUs sniper pods lolz.only indian members and indian forums have that issue


Dont Feed the trolls please...........


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## mirage 5000

hasnain0099 said:


> Isnt that Mavrick missile?


 
sir look at 0:36 at this video mavrick being loading on PAF F-16 block-15 before many many years. that was old AGM-65E Maverick .





in this block-52 pic its AGM-65F Maverick .The brown one

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## Rocky rock

*what you guy's think? are we going to buy more blk/50/52 or not??? i think 18 will be not enough what you guy's say???*


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## mirage 5000

Rocky rock said:


> *what you guy's think? are we going to buy more blk/50/52 or not??? i think 18 will be not enough what you guy's say???*


 
NO we are not going for more block-52 . 18 block-52 and 45MLU same as block 52 are enugh .we should stay away from USA at any cost.

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## Last Hope

We shouldn't.
Cause once US leaves Afghanistan, we wont be getting any spare parts for the F-16s.


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## SBD-3

Just wondering why didn't we go with SABR instead of APG-68(V)9, was it not allowed or other reasons?


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## mirage 5000

hasnain0099 said:


> Just wondering why didn't we go with SABR instead of APG-68(V)9, was it not allowed or other reasons?


 
SABR become on earth in 2010 when our contract was ready to diliver sir in 2006 there was nothing SABR that time so how can we add that radar in 2006 contract. if someone got f-16 now they can request ,

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## Hunzaghazi

The only thing that was/is/will standing/stand between an Indian win and Pak defeat is Powerful PAF. In 1965 it won the many accolades.
Just can't write off PAF esp after it acquired jf thunder and deadly f 16.


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## mirage 5000

anushraj87 said:


> The only thing that was/is/will standing/stand between an Indian win and Pak defeat is Powerful PAF. In 1965 it won the many accolades.
> Just can't write off PAF esp after it acquired jf thunder and deadly f 16.


 
why you guys always thinking for defeat others? its for security of pakistan nothing more .


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## Rocky rock

friend's today i heard on new's that USA stop the AID of 80 million's to pak that's very sad... dnt knw wat's next... i am lil afraid


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## SBD-3

Rocky rock said:


> friend's today i heard on new's that USA stop the AID of 80 million's to pak that's very sad... dnt knw wat's next... i am lil afraid


 thats 800 Million to be correct....but you can post it in any political thread....here it effectively derails the thread


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## mirage 5000

Rocky rock said:


> friend's today i heard on new's that USA stop the AID of 80 million's to pak that's very sad... dnt knw wat's next... i am lil afraid


 
what??????????? 80 million lol its 800millions . and why are you so sad for this begg? man pakistanis all around the world send 10billion dollars in last 11 months . wakeup man we lost billions for these peanuts .205 nations of world living on earth all they got AID ?no we was beggers .


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## razgriz19

when are we going to recieve TAI upgraded f-16s?


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## VelocuR

razgriz19 said:


> when are we going to recieve TAI upgraded f-16s?


 
Next year (third quarter) or so. It was started early in 2010 upgrading F-16s MLU.

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## razgriz19

found a picture, probably posted earlier........

PAF f-16 in TAI being upgraded!

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## Hunzaghazi

mirage 5000 said:


> why you guys always thinking for defeat others? its for security of pakistan nothing more .



I should have drafted it in a better way. you are rite. I should have said that god forbid in case of war PAF would be single most difference and outcome of war would depend on its performance.


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## Bossman

anushraj87 said:


> I should have drafted it in a better way. you are rite. I should have said that god forbid in case of war PAF would be single most difference and outcome of war would depend on its performance.


 
I don't think so, it will depend on the performance of Pakistani strategic forces. If they can take out or damage major IAF airfields, railheads, logistic centers, Indian's quantitative and qualitative advantage can be neutralized to a certain degree.

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## AUz

anushraj87 said:


> I should have drafted it in a better way. you are rite. I should have said that god forbid in case of war PAF would be single most difference and outcome of war would depend on its performance.


 
I agree with *Bossman*.*Pakistan's Strategic Forces command* would be the backbone of Pakistan's war effort.In early hours of war (God Forbid if it happens),we would see "*rain of missiles"* on *Indian airfields,Air bases,command centers,logistic lines,military infrastructure,railroads,shipping docks and (may be) economic centers* by Pakistani Strategic Forces.I guess India would do the same or may be IAF will be assigned this task !!! One thing is almost sure---*PAF would come later in the war for Pakistan*


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## BelligerentPacifist

AUz said:


> ....Pakistan's Strategic Forces command[/COLOR][/B] would be the backbone of Pakistan's war effort.In early hours of war (God Forbid if it happens),we would see "*rain of missiles"* on *Indian airfields,Air bases,command centers,logistic lines,military infrastructure,railroads,shipping docks...*


*

Rain of missiles eh? Why has Pakistan reportedly just asked India not to target each other with ballistic missiles? India might be in possession of a far bigger inventory, and has protection against yours that why maybe?*


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## S-A-B-E-R->

BelligerentPacifist said:


> Rain of missiles eh? Why has Pakistan reportedly just asked India not to target each other with ballistic missiles? India might be in possession of a far bigger inventory, and has protection against yours that why maybe?


 
we are at some level ahed in balestic and altelary missles frm india ,recently india have started to clost that gam,i guss tha is a recent news


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## Jungibaaz

AUz said:


> I agree with *Bossman*.*Pakistan's Strategic Forces command* would be the backbone of Pakistan's war effort.In early hours of war (God Forbid if it happens),we would see "*rain of missiles"* on *Indian airfields,Air bases,command centers,logistic lines,military infrastructure,railroads,shipping docks and (may be) economic centers* by Pakistani Strategic Forces.I guess India would do the same or may be IAF will be assigned this task !!! One thing is almost sure---*PAF would come later in the war for Pakistan*


 
I've long suspected that PAF and PA would be aiming towards such strikes with the help of Babur, Ra'ad and NASR.

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## GHOST RIDER




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## Bratva

Few years back, Dr.Samar Mubarik mand, said that on TV channel, Cost of One New F-16 that we bought from USA is equal to 16 Shaheen-1 missiles we build inhouse.


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## Bratva

AUz said:


> I agree with *Bossman*.*Pakistan's Strategic Forces command* would be the backbone of Pakistan's war effort.In early hours of war (God Forbid if it happens),we would see "*rain of missiles"* on *Indian airfields,Air bases,command centers,logistic lines,military infrastructure,railroads,shipping docks and (may be) economic centers* by Pakistani Strategic Forces.I guess India would do the same or may be IAF will be assigned this task !!! One thing is almost sure---*PAF would come later in the war for Pakistan*


 
If we think logically, then The Next War Will Be the War Of Strategic Forces, And GOD Forbid, Pakistan Don't have a Proper Anti Ballistic Defense systems. And first few hours of War will decide the faith of both country And Yeah India will also Target the PAF fields.So surely PAF would come very late in the war if there is any runway or airfield left to fly Plane From. Same is true for IAF fields across the Border. Our Strategic forces first choice would be to disable IAF airfields using Cruise and Ballistic Missiles


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## mirage 5000

mafiya said:


> Few years back, Dr.Samar Mubarik mand, said that on TV channel, Cost of One New F-16 that we bought from USA is equal to 16 Shaheen-1 missiles we build inhouse.


 
but we can not use shaheen daily sir . every waipon has its own job .he may be right in term of economy .

---------- Post added at 09:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:25 PM ----------




mafiya said:


> If we think logically, then The Next War Will Be the War Of Strategic Forces, And GOD Forbid, Pakistan Don't have a Proper Anti Ballistic Defense systems. And first few hours of War will decide the faith of both country And Yeah India will also Target the PAF fields.So surely PAF would come very late in the war if there is any runway or airfield left to fly Plane From. Same is true for IAF fields across the Border. Our Strategic forces first choice would be to disable IAF airfields using Cruise and Ballistic Missiles


 
we should pray to GOD will never show us that day .ameen


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## Hunzaghazi

But one thing the gesting period for Pak to recover from a full fleged war(god forbid) would be higher than India. As India is geographically bigger and thus in a better position to recover fast. 
Even during kargil war, clear instructions were given to IAF not to cross the LOC as India was wary of PAF's capabilities. It wanted to avoid a full fledged conflict. 
But I must add one more thing that after 1947 PAF has come brilliantly and now it is one of the best and can challenge IAF.


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## Silk

anushraj87 said:


> But one thing the gesting period for Pak to recover from a full fleged war(god forbid) would be higher than India. As India is geographically bigger and thus in a better position to recover fast.
> Even during kargil war, clear instructions were given to IAF not to cross the LOC as India was wary of PAF's capabilities. It wanted to avoid a full fledged conflict.
> But I must add one more thing that after 1947 PAF has come brilliantly and now it is one of the best and can challenge IAF.


 
Irrelevant and plain wrong. If you shoot a person in the head... Does it matter how tall he is? If you eliminate close to the border the cities like Dilli or Mumbai. If you are close to the silicon valley... What do you think you will do with clean Bihar? Spare me your big and great India logic please.


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## razgriz19

^^ discussion suggest that PAF is in dire need of a good anti-ballistic missile defence!

i think it would be better if we scrap j-10b dream (since we cant afford both at same time) and pursue towards building a missile shield. its much more suitable to counter current threats posing by our neighbors...


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## Manticore

^ these shields cant garantee incoming missile destruction , instead spend the meagre money we have on weapons that will hurt the enemy e.g cruise missiles and j10b

offense is the best defense


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## razgriz19

ANTIBODY said:


> ^ these shields cant garantee incoming missile destruction , instead spend the meagre money we have on weapons that will hurt the enemy e.g cruise missiles and j10b
> 
> offense is the best defense


 
i agree, however my concern is what would happen if enemy starts firing missiles on our bases, and on strategic facilities?
we need some missiles like HQ-9, to atleast take out short range ballistic missiles and cruise missiles...


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## Hunzaghazi

Silk said:


> Irrelevant and plain wrong. If you shoot a person in the head... Does it matter how tall he is? If you eliminate close to the border the cities like Dilli or Mumbai. If you are close to the silicon valley... What do you think you will do with clean Bihar? Spare me your big and great India logic please.



Chennai, Banglaore, Ahemdabad, Hyderabad(Ind), Kolkata,Chandigarh, Gurgaon are too big cities.
Infact Chennai and Banglaore are bigger than Delhi.
And if Pak fires one missile then Ind would also fire one. Its tit for tat(true for both sides). If Pak fires missiles at all the cities then Ind would also look for alt sites for bombing. 
That will cause massive devistation.


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## fatman17

anushraj87 said:


> Chennai, Banglaore, Ahemdabad, Hyderabad(Ind), Kolkata,Chandigarh, Gurgaon are too big cities.
> Infact Chennai and Banglaore are bigger than Delhi.
> And if Pak fires one missile then Ind would also fire one. Its tit for tat(true for both sides). If Pak fires missiles at all the cities then Ind would also look for alt sites for bombing.
> That will cause massive devistation.



yep! doomsday scenario

---------- Post added at 04:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:26 PM ----------

^^^BTW this is a F-16 thread not a WMD thread - pls revert to F-16s


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## Hunzaghazi

fatman17 said:


> yep! doomsday scenario.
> BTW this is a F-16 thread not a WMD thread - pls revert to F-16s



OKAEYE....................


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## Silk

anushraj87 said:


> Chennai, Banglaore, Ahemdabad, Hyderabad(Ind), Kolkata,Chandigarh, Gurgaon are too big cities.
> Infact Chennai and Banglaore are bigger than Delhi.
> And if Pak fires one missile then Ind would also fire one. Its tit for tat(true for both sides). If Pak fires missiles at all the cities then Ind would also look for alt sites for bombing.
> That will cause massive devistation.


 
So what will India achieve by doing anything? It will never win. If that is a superpower then anyone is a superpower. I rest my case and thanks for providing the data I wanted.


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## SQ8

Please stick to the F-16
discuss the rest elsewhere.

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## soul hacker

F-16D Block52 breaking the silence of night with sound of the after burners.


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## Manticore

just uploaded it -- audio might take a couple of hours to be audioswapped -- probably the best audioswap song available in this duration !

i didnt realize i had 100+ pics of paf blk52+

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## SMC

We started our F-16 MLUs in October last year. Now it's July, so almost 10 months have passed. Any idea how many F-16s have been MLUed so far and if we have received any?


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## fatman17

SMC said:


> We started our F-16 MLUs in October last year. Now it's July, so almost 10 months have passed. Any idea how many F-16s have been MLUed so far and if we have received any?



shd follow the thread closely - since you are a close personal friend, i will update you.

4 - a/c are in US for MLU - to be returned in Jan-2012
6 - a/c are in Turkey for MLU - total time required is 42 months for full MLU pkg to complete.

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## Faani

Hello guys. i am new to this forum. I am proud to be a .


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## MZUBAIR

fatman17 said:


> shd follow the thread closely - since you are a close personal friend, i will update you.
> 
> 4 - a/c are in US for MLU - to be returned in Jan-2012
> 6 - a/c are in Turkey for MLU - total time required is 42 months for full MLU pkg to complete.


 
42 months means 3+ years, if every thing (political,miltary) situation with US remains f9, which is not good at the moment infact. Then this process would be completed in 2014. And little delay could take it to 2016 or may be more when I believe that value of these AC's wouldn't be as imp as its now.


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## drone

*Pakistan to Exercise Options for More F-16s *

By USMAN ANSARI 
Published: 15 Jul 2011 17:36 

ISLAMABAD - Pakistan is in the final stages of exercising an option to buy 18 more F-16 Block 52+ fighters, which would double its fleet of the Fighting Falcon's advanced variant, said Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank.

Deliveries of the 18 "Peace Drive I" planes, currently Pakistan's most capable aircraft, were completed in December under a 2006 contract. The contract, including the 18-plane option, was then valued at $3 billion.

A planned upgrade to F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft will bring them up to the Block 40 standard as well. They are currently being put through the Falcon STAR (Structural Augmentation Roadmap) program, and undergoing Mid-Life Update (MLU) at the hands of Turkish Aerospace Industries in Turkey.

In 2006, the value of 60 MLU kits was quoted as $1.3 billion. The upgrade was approved for 45 Block 15s, and now has been curtailed at 35 planes, Khan said. 

The reason for this is uncertain. 

Khan notes that U.S. Navy has refused to release 14 ex-Pakistani F-16s that were part of the "Peace Gate III/IV" order of 71 planes. These aircraft were embargoed before delivery under the Pressler Amendment in the 1990s and eventually found a home with the Navy's aggressor units.


For complete article, please refer to the following link.....

(defensenews.com/story.php?i=7106738&c=ASI&s=AIR)


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## Abu Zolfiqar

in my humble opinion, unless there are 'concessions' of some considerable kind -- we should focus more on the Thunder program as it is a very promising and cost-effective one and refrain from exercising any option to go for 18 further new block F-16s

block 52 equivalent F-16s (42 in number) in tandem with block 30 & 2 squadrons of "bonus" F16 C/D block 52s is sufficient as far as the F16 program is concerned. . . 

we must let the cost-effective and "stringless" options to mature....We will be saving money and still have a formidable option with much space for future upgrades and modernization.

especially at a time when it is the military itself stating that economic security and national security go hand-in-hand


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## DANGER-ZONE

no more F-16s plz .... its a trap.


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## Pfpilot

If this is true, it would seem logical since we bought a higher number of twin seaters than is normal...it would make most sense to do so in order to prepare a larger number of pilots as more f-16s join the service.
But Im not sure if further f-16 purchases are a good idea, do we really want to stay reliant on American hardware? I hope there is a very logical reason for such procurement.


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## Manticore

looks like j10b induction had to be postponed and f16s were the option but is the u.s gonna sell more fighters considering the ongoing turmoil in relations ?


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## TOPGUN

I knew it ... as i had said before PAF will try to get the 18 option on the vipers.. lets see..


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## SBD-3

ANTIBODY said:


> looks like j10b induction had to be postponed and f16s were the option but is the u.s gonna sell more fighters considering the ongoing turmoil in relations ?


If i can recall the statement of Mr.Mukhtar, he said that Pakistan would love to shop as many F-16s (second hand) it can get from around. So effectively falcon induction was either
1) Independent of FC-20 purchases and PAF would be looking for expanding fleet.
2) FC-20 had encountered some delays and a quick fallback was required. But if this was true then it would only make sense if there were some serious threats to FC-20 program because having these vipers in fleet would mean that these would serve for at least 15 to 20 years.
In all, with Indian acquisitions lined up, PAF will not be merely replacing its fleet but an expansion is imminent either it come from greter FC-20s or JFTs


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## Areesh

Seriously speaking this is a bad decision in my view. All those sanctions in last 60 + years weren't enough for the Pakistani establishment to realize that American hardware isn't good option for Pakistan. What the hell. .

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## Manticore

the above link says no progress in release of aggressor f16s nor the 'buying' of orions yet -- buying used f16s is understandable though , not new fighters

i guess either the chinese are funding the blk2 jft [50] completely which has enabled paf to divert the money for f16s , or the specs of fc20 reqiured by paf ,after acquiring f16 blk52 ,has gone up


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## alimobin memon

maybe there is no hurry to buy fc20 since jf17 blk 2 is arriving even some of my friends who are senior engineers say that jf17's blk1 rcs is less than blk52+ . god knows whats in blk2

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## fatman17

ANTIBODY said:


> the above link says no progress in release of aggressor f16s nor the 'buying' of orions yet -- buying used f16s is understandable though , not new fighters
> 
> i guess either the chinese are funding the blk2 jft [50] completely which has enabled paf to divert the money for f16s , or the specs of fc20 reqiured by paf ,after acquiring f16 blk52 ,has gone up



two negotiation tracks are running at this time. the countries involved are US / Pak / Norway.

1- pak is interested in atleast 36 used norwegian F-16's which are 'excess' in norway.
2- pak is negotiating for atleast 18 new or EDA F-16s from the US.

its a slow process made even slower by the current state of relations between the two countries.

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## Manticore

sir are these fighters already in storage or are operational with norway?
total f16s with norway 72 but operational 57 - so rest are either in storage or are destroyed
The operational F-16AM fighter will be replaced from 2016
Royal Norwegian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## fatman17

ANTIBODY said:


> sir are these fighters already in storage or are operational with norway?
> total f16s with norway 72 but operational 57 - so rest are either in storage or are destroyed
> The operational F-16AM fighter will be replaced from 2016
> Royal Norwegian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



i belive they are grounded as they squadrons they represent are disbanded. so available for sale/transfer. belgium has sold nearly 30 a/c to jordan after getting NOC from the US.


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## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> two negotiation tracks are running at this time. the countries involved are US / Pak / Norway.
> 
> 1- pak is interested in atleast 36 used norwegian F-16's which are 'excess' in norway.
> *2- pak is negotiating for atleast 18 new or EDA F-16s from the US.*
> its a slow process made even slower by the current state of relations between the two countries.


 
About those F-16s from US.*
We are planning to buy 18 F-16C Block 52. Those all would be equipped with CFTs.*


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## TOPGUN

Last Hope said:


> About those F-16s from US.*
> We are planning to buy 18 F-16C Block 52. Those all would be equipped with CFTs.*


 
I belive they would be equipped with cft's why not the last ones are as you can see.


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## razgriz19

If Pakistan do exercise the option for another 18 then will it be same as before?
i mean 12C and 6D?


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## AlexGreat

Probably would be the same...


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## TOPGUN

razgriz19 said:


> If Pakistan do exercise the option for another 18 then will it be same as before?
> i mean 12C and 6D?


 
Yes i would belive so...

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## DANGER-ZONE

what a mess is this ! 
At one hand we have Director of LOCKHEED MARTIN visiting India to enquire why they were dropped from MMRCA contest and on the other hand our higher officials are negotiating with US and LHM personal for two dozen used and 18 new F-16s. Its has also been done for 14 old of USN but failed. 

They throw us out like beggars after the end of negotiations. Does Pakistan still recognise its value or we are totally blind for Yankees stuff. ?? 
wasn't that enough to experience that happened in 90s. will you guys forget every thing if they again allowed for Falcon sale, how did they invade our sovereignty and daily they kill our people by drone attacks. ? 

These Birds and military aid is a feeder for the shouting people of Pakistan. SUCK ON THAT. !

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## epinephrine

danger-zone said:


> what a mess is this !
> At one hand we have Director of LOCKHEED MARTIN visiting India to enquire why they were dropped from MMRCA contest and on the other hand our higher officials are negotiating with US and LHM personal for two dozen used and 18 new F-16s. Its has also been done for 14 old of USN but failed.
> 
> They throw us out like baggers after the end of negotiations. Does Pakistan still recognise its value or we are totally blind for Yankees stuff. ??
> wasn't that enough to experience that happened in 90s. will you guys forget every thing if they again allowed for Falcon sale, how did they invade our sovereignty and daily they kill our people by drone attacks. ?
> 
> These Birds and military aid is a feeder for the shouting people of Pakistan. SUCK ON THAT. !


 

a lot is discussed about drones violating our sovereignty.but i think we never had any control in the FATA .that area was always called as "ilaka ghair".no pakistani ever dared to go to that area even before 9/11.FATA had always been a safe heaven for criminals.they called themselves to be a part of pakistan but never obeyed pakistani law.they had more affiliation with afghanistan then pakistan.no law enforcement agency could go to that area before 9/11.so where was our sovereignty for the past 60 years.now these people claim to be pakistani when drones r bombing them otherwise they never respected our constitution.never paid a peeny in taxes n always welcomed criminals from all over the world.

coming back to the topic.i think the PAF is trying to induct more F-16s just to have a mix force of more reliable US and chinese aircrafts.if we exclude F-16s from our inventory then our fleet will be consisting of only chinese aircraft keeping in view that the mirages will be phased out in near future.without F-16s we will be having only JF-17 n J-10.PAF wont be able to go for rafale n eurofighter due to budget issues.so F-16 is our only option left.

our politicians will always bend in front of US no matter they give us any military hardware or not.they are more interested in dollars.so our sovereignty will always be at stake no matter we receive the f-16s or not.so if we refuse to take these birds then" MUFT KAY CHITTAR PARAIN GAY OR MILNA BE KUCH NAHI"


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## Arsalan

danger-zone said:


> what a mess is this !
> At one hand we have Director of LOCKHEED MARTIN visiting India to enquire why they were dropped from MMRCA contest and on the other hand our higher officials are negotiating with US and LHM personal for two dozen used and 18 new F-16s. Its has also been done for 14 old of USN but failed.
> 
> They throw us out like baggers after the end of negotiations. Does Pakistan still recognise its value or we are totally blind for Yankees stuff. ??
> wasn't that enough to experience that happened in 90s. will you guys forget every thing if they again allowed for Falcon sale, how did they invade our sovereignty and daily they kill our people by drone attacks. ?
> 
> These Birds and military aid is a feeder for the shouting people of Pakistan. SUCK ON THAT. !


 
very true. PAF opting for more US equipment and investing anything of the sanction prone platforms will be a blunder. 
we have well tested the friendship of US in hard times and it have always let us down. this is the time that we realize he the US equipment are no good for us and will always bring bad to our defense forces.
now, specially with the J-10B around corners, the JFT Blk II underway and the J-20 promising completion by 2020, it will be nothing but criminally stupid to go for US F-16z!

regards!
Arsalan Aslam

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## SQ8

Perhaps if a less than stark view of the AS OF YET UNCONFIRMED negotiations is taken, then the procurement may very well be an adequate stop-gap measure for the PAF.
Upgraded F-16 AM/BM's from wherever can also be seen as "assembled" spare parts. 
in case we are embargoed again, having these extra airframes will allow us to keep our two sq's of MLU's operating longer at acceptable flying hours.

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## Patriot

Buying F16 is the right decision - All of Pakistani members act we should work few years and develop JF-17 more and buy more JF-17 well you need cover for JF-17's too and with long range radars and armed with AIM120 these F16 will provide adequate protection to JF-17's which i think comes in 2nd tier category in PAF.I think if PAF Went to war with just JF-17's without F16 then JF17 will become more like target drones for SU30.Besides, other platform will take years to understand where as we have ground crews, pilots etc for F16.


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## Imran Khan

when kids see the pics of block-52 loaded with CFT- AMRAAM-SNIPER POD- JDAM- they say wah wah wah 

when PAF dicide for more beauty they said shame shame shame hahahaaahaha
what a undecided nation we are .lolz let them come they are real teeth of PAF and 18 which we have are nothing atleast we have 35 or 50+ block-52 .

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## Arsalan

Patriot said:


> Buying F16 is the right decision - All of Pakistani members act we should work few years and develop JF-17 more and buy more JF-17 well you need cover for JF-17's too and with long range radars and armed with AIM120 these F16 will provide adequate protection to JF-17's which i think comes in 2nd tier category in PAF.I think if PAF Went to war with just JF-17's without F16 then JF17 will become more like target drones for SU30.Besides, other platform will take years to understand where as we have ground crews, pilots etc for F16.


 
heared about the J-10B! that what i take as a much more competent and respectful replacement of the F-16!
atleast these will be at our liberty to use as per requirement with no strings attached. we wont have to ground these in desperate times due to spare part shortages like the F-16z

well, hopefully, US wont agree to sell anymore and this will be great!


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## Arsalan

Imran Khan said:


> when kids see the pics of block-52 loaded with CFT- AMRAAM-SNIPER POD- JDAM- they say wah wah wah
> 
> when PAF dicide for more beauty they said shame shame shame hahahaaahaha
> what a undecided nation we are .lolz let them come they are real teeth of PAF and *18 which we have are nothing atleast we have 35 or 50+ block-52 *.



this poin is very true.
however, what do you suggest, wont the MLU F-16 be able to support the 18 Blk 52.

my point is only that we cannot risk more $$ of such a sanction prone aircraft.


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## Luftwaffe

This is Accumulation of the finest planes available to PAF for the last time.

PAF has kept in perspective all the development work going on with JF-17 and J-10B/FC-20 and it seems the only Jets that full fills all of the requirements are the current F-16s. The fleet expansion also signifies that in future PAF could upgrade to SABR AESA.


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## epinephrine

once US is out of afghanistan will we be able to get SABR AESA ?because this is not included in the present upgrades n in the latest jets we r getting


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## DANGER-ZONE

Agreed that F-16 is the finest plane PAF have today and adding 18 more and a few more MLUs will strengthen our air force. 
but remember we are out of money now a days, we might not be able to purchase even 18 new F-16s and if the they are coming under some military aid or half paid by US AID, then get ready to sacrifice a few more things.
On the other hand if we ever had money, then would you suggest to play gambling game or u like to invest these $$ somewhere secure. Investing on F-16 under current US-PAK relations would be a bad move. 
They can kick us hard after any event but we cant even take revenge. 

*@ Imran Khan* if i could remember, u were also shouting on PAF and on New Birds - 52, when US continued drone attacks after the raid. u people declared these birds as *SITTING DUCKS*. now these are "REAL TEETH OF PAF" . have u forgotten everything ?. 
These teeth are like artificial teeth which can be pull out of the mouth after the usage. now u cannot bite anyone if your teeth are not in your hand. 
Although this is senseless, but after knowing the real ownership of Shahbaz air base, reality of drone attack and lack in securing PAF Faisal Base, i would not like to be surprised any day by hearing, in case of any conflict, any PAF personal confirming that "WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO USE NEW F16 WITHOUT US PRIVILEGE"

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## muse

They are like addicts with these f16's -- Us say Pakistanis will sell their mothers for US$20.00 - others say that's an exaggeration.

Weapons platforms such as fighter jets have to be available for the use of the air force as directed by the government - with F16's, we are already in a bind - it is no doubt a potent weapon system, however, it is not under the total control of the air force or the Pakistan government - expensive to operate, we don't make any of the spare parts that need replacing or servicing after take off and landing - and relations with the US can only improve if Pakistan accepts the diktat of the US == and this simply won't work -- Pakistan play a curious game with the US and they return the favor, but Pakistan play that game because US and Pakistan have divergent interests and these interest will diverge even more in the near future - why would anyone suggest that Pakistan become even more of a hostage to the foreign policy or internal politics of the US?? It's really quite strange of suggestion that we spend more of our limited funds to acquire a weapon system which is not reliable.


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## araz

arsalanaslam123 said:


> heared about the J-10B! that what i take as a much more competent and respectful replacement of the F-16!
> atleast these will be at our liberty to use as per requirement with no strings attached. we wont have to ground these in desperate times due to spare part shortages like the F-16z
> 
> well, hopefully, US wont agree to sell anymore and this will be great!


 
Arsalan
There was a piece of news in the papers a few months ago quoting the ACM as having said that the J10 B has been shelved for the moment. If you assume this to be truethen you have to look for an interim arrangement . Now with 18 Bl 52 you dont have much to show against hte high end of IAF. Also from the pure embargo point of view, paradoxically PAF has ensured that it has a good mix of local Chinese and US inventory. Even if the US embargoes us in a war scenario, we have a much better chance of at least keeping a fair number of our fighters in air. 
If you exclude the US , and think of a third option, what do you end up with which is not an economic suicide for the country? I understand theconcerns that every one has but please understand that we are in a tight situation due to long mismanagement of our many internal and external problems, the economy being at the fore front!! So much asI would like to move on from the f16 era, I am afraid it may not be possible this side of the 2020. We need a credible defence till that time.
Araz


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## muse

> ! So much asI would like to move on from the f16 era, I am afraid it may not be possible this side of the 2020. We need a credible defence till that time.
> Araz




So, in your estimation Pakistan policy makers will not be able to get a handle on Extremism 00 after all, other than the extremists, whom do we seek conflict with ?? And if we are not seeking conflict with any other than terrorism and terrorists, why exactly....? 

The Indian is pinning his hopes on US investment in his economy and neither US nor India want to see that investment up in flames -- so I'm not quite sure why we need to spend this money and make ourselves hostage in this 8 year period till 2020? Perhaps you will elaborate on your thinking


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## unicorn

PAf have made the right choice by going after additional 18.Only concern now remains in mind is the delivery dates of these AC.That will give us the idea how things will proceed in the future.


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## muse

PAF has not as yet decided to go for the additional 18 -You don't even know the delivery date, but it's the right choice? You don't even know how they may be configured but it's the right choice?

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## Imran Khan

danger-zone said:


> *@ Imran Khan* if i could remember, u were also shouting on PAF and on New Birds - 52, when US continued drone attacks after the raid. u people declared these birds as *SITTING DUCKS*. now these are "REAL TEETH OF PAF" . have u forgotten everything ?.
> These teeth are like artificial teeth which can be pull out of the mouth after the usage. now u cannot bite anyone if your teeth are not in your hand.
> Although this is senseless, but after knowing the real ownership of Shahbaz air base, reality of drone attack and lack in securing PAF Faisal Base, i would not like to be surprised any day by hearing, in case of any conflict, any PAF personal confirming that "WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO USE NEW F16 WITHOUT US PRIVILEGE"


 
yes sir i was i am talking abut indian threat they are real teeth for usa 18 block-52 or 1118 block-52 are useless to counter US threat .


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## Chogy

I sense a lot of anger w/regards to the F-16. I'll say it again, the F-16 is a lethal, outstanding platform, and with experienced pilots in the cockpit, they are a match for anything flying right now with perhaps the sole exception of the F-22.

Something to keep in mind... the AIM-120. Pakistan has them. Egypt (among many other nations) does not. That says a lot. It turns the F-16 from an agile day fighter into an accomplished and deadly interceptor.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

People should read this if they haven't.....(im sure most have read it by now, it should be required reading for ALL who want to know about the F16s and the type of pilots who operate them). It appears that certain 'restrictions' do exist but it is very clear that they are ''bonus'' aircrafts (new block ones) and do possess technologies which the Americans are worried about others copying. 

PAF obviously keeps all implications into consideration. The F16s have served the country VERY well so far, you cannot dispute that.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/103690-interview-pakistan-air-force-viper-pilot.html


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## Najam Khan

Dear all,
Most of you are only looking at the smaller picture of Bk52's induction. Think of something on broader canvas, negating dozens of 'long term' benefits associated with Bk52 is really not a professional way to look at it.

If Bk52 is not for eastern front does that means its a 'paper- weight' ? Don't we get new lessons & training on latest weaponry that comes with them? Don't our pilots & engineers getting training with all those 'goodies' from EW/targeting/Recce pods to LGBs, JDAM A-G to A-A weapons? Don't you people see our AF's expertise & experience of handling latest technology touching skies?

Well i am looking forward to lots and lots of changes in PAF' s doctrine, more topics to be covered in CCS, more role for people at ground & air, new roles during routine training & combat activities and finally more efficient and hard hitting Pakistan Air Force.

The current situation regarding Bk52 is foggy...but i am confident the future is all clear and bright.It may be not in terms of its usage privileges but in terms of the experience & knowledge we will get from this machine.

Long live Pakistan!

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## Bratva

Chogy said:


> I sense a lot of anger w/regards to the F-16. I'll say it again, the F-16 is a lethal, outstanding platform, and with experienced pilots in the cockpit, they are a match for anything flying right now with perhaps the sole exception of the F-22.
> 
> Something to keep in mind... the AIM-120. Pakistan has them. Egypt (among many other nations) does not. That says a lot. It turns the F-16 from an agile day fighter into an accomplished and deadly interceptor.


 

Mr.Chogy, We have never doubted the F-16 capabilities. It's one hell of a fighter. We love to see them in our inventory But

the anger you see here is w.r.t Uncertain behavior of America supplying Spare parts of F-16 in all conditions. Any Ugly turn in Relation Between Pak-America first thing to hit will be F-16 Spare parts chain. 

And for me, My Anger is directed towards Not giving DFRM with F-16 block 52, whereas when Indian were offered F-16, DFRM was already in that package. I don't understand this weird logic.

So the Uncertain Spare parts delivery plus not giving certain technologies with F-16 when Next door neighbor was allowed to have them plus Dictating how to Use F-16 is what making Us angry towards new procurement.


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## Xracer

Long live Pakistan sir


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## Xracer

Your Right Bro Agree with you and i am also angry


mafiya said:


> Mr.Chogy, We have never doubted the F-16 capabilities. It's one hell of a fighter. We love to see them in our inventory But
> 
> the anger you see here is w.r.t Uncertain behavior of America supplying Spare parts of F-16 in all conditions. Any Ugly turn in Relation Between Pak-America first thing to hit will be F-16 Spare parts chain.
> 
> And for me, My Anger is directed towards Not giving DFRM with F-16 block 52, whereas when Indian were offered F-16, DFRM was already in that package. I don't understand this weird logic.
> 
> So the Uncertain Spare parts delivery plus not giving certain technologies with F-16 when Next door neighbor was allowed to have them plus Dictating how to Use F-16 is what making Us angry towards new procurement.


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## razgriz19

what ever you people say, i know only one thing!
those f-16s gave us long awaited capability! BVR!
and now we have that because of f-16!
and probably the best in class, AIM-120C5!

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Whatever PAF takes into consideration now or in near future is altogether seperate issue.

These F-16s and the ones undergoing upgradations will be able to fire the Raytheon AMRAAM (AIM-120) & AAMs (AIM- 9M-8/9 Sidewinder) which narrows the edge indian had over Pakistan when they inducted the Vympels RVV-AE (R-77) active radar AAM missiles. 

The arrival of the AMRAAM and an expanded F-16 force into PAF service balances the regional air-power equation, to a degree.


They can easily serve 2 roles....for anti insurgency (day/night) and for aiding in the country's air defence and sovereignty against the threat in the east.....PAF would not pay for CFTs if the aircrafts were only limited to counter-insurgency. That would be stupid of them. And given their tight budgets, they wouldn't undertake expensive propositions if they didn't have a purpose of any kind.

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## VelocuR

Is there bugs inside F-16 blk 52 to watch their PAF movements by US ? 

forget it.



> Q: Will the Americans be able to track the locations of the Block 52s through some sort of tracking devices hidden inside the aircraft?
> 
> A: If there are tracking devices then they will be inside the sealed systems, like the avionics suites or the sniper pods because we will not have the ability to look inside. If their Predator and Reaper drones are transmitting their GPS locations via satellite so can a Block 52 F-16.



http://www.pakistankakhudahafiz.com...phoons-pilots-beaten-by-paf-f-16viper-pilots/


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## Melting

Yes jf -17 will make a lot of difference when it comes to number game in any ofence situation with other country and we can upgrade it much as we want and also through export we can earn a lot of money so JF-17 is future backbone of PAF...............


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## Mabs

And then his user name will automatically change to Who Am I instead of my name is arya.


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## Arsalan

araz said:


> Arsalan
> There was a piece of news in the papers a few months ago quoting the ACM as having said that the J10 B has been shelved for the moment. If you assume this to be truethen you have to look for an interim arrangement . Now with 18 Bl 52 you dont have much to show against hte high end of IAF. Also from the pure embargo point of view, paradoxically PAF has ensured that it has a good mix of local Chinese and US inventory. Even if the US embargoes us in a war scenario, we have a much better chance of at least keeping a fair number of our fighters in air.
> If you exclude the US , and think of a third option, what do you end up with which is not an economic suicide for the country? I understand theconcerns that every one has but please understand that we are in a tight situation due to long mismanagement of our many internal and external problems, the economy being at the fore front!! So much asI would like to move on from the f16 era, I am afraid it may not be possible this side of the 2020. We need a credible defence till that time.
> Araz


 
sir all this big money and risk purchase cannot be based on a rumor about the J-10B being shelved.
we all have gone through many reports claiming that the J-10B procurement is well on track. 

as danger zone have out it, no one will advise going gambling in these crunch economic times!
well that my point of view. i agree with MUSE and Danger Zone. there is no hurry, we must wait for the J-10B to materialize and keep our fingures crossed that the existing fleet is not grounded due to spares issues in coming time and the MLU and STAR upgrade keep on track.
with the elections approaching, i sense lot is going to change in near future!


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## Arsalan

NAjAM Khan said:


> Dear all,
> Most of you are only looking at the smaller picture of Bk52's induction. Think of something on broader canvas, negating dozens of 'long term' benefits associated with Bk52 is really not a professional way to look at it.
> 
> If Bk52 is not for eastern front does that means its a 'paper- weight' ? Don't we get new lessons & training on latest weaponry that comes with them? Don't our pilots & engineers getting training with all those 'goodies' from EW/targeting/Recce pods to LGBs, JDAM A-G to A-A weapons? Don't you people see our AF's expertise & experience of handling latest technology touching skies?
> 
> Well i am looking forward to lots and lots of changes in PAF' s doctrine, more topics to be covered in CCS, more role for people at ground & air, new roles during routine training & combat activities and finally more efficient and hard hitting Pakistan Air Force.
> 
> The current situation regarding Bk52 is foggy...but i am confident the future is all clear and bright.It may be not in terms of its usage privileges but in terms of the experience & knowledge we will get from this machine.
> 
> Long live Pakistan!


 
sir if we want them to learn new technologies, the 18 we have in our hand are enough.

the only point is that its a HUGE risk buying and getting anything from america coze with along with the hardware, comes a long list of DOs and Donts! that when/if they are eventually delivered, we have cases where the bought hardware was never delivered. i dont need to disucss this again, its well known to all of you!

regards!


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## fatman17

Melting said:


> Yes jf -17 will make a lot of difference when it comes to *number game* in any ofence situation with other country and we can upgrade it much as we want and also through export we can earn a lot of money so JF-17 is future backbone of PAF...............



mumbers game is not enough. you need force multiplyers. the JFT will eventually be a force multiplyer as it develops further.

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## Manticore




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## Chogy

mafiya said:


> Mr.Chogy, We have never doubted the F-16 capabilities. It's one hell of a fighter. We love to see them in our inventory But
> 
> the anger you see here is w.r.t Uncertain behavior of America supplying Spare parts of F-16 in all conditions. Any Ugly turn in Relation Between Pak-America first thing to hit will be F-16 Spare parts chain.
> 
> And for me, My Anger is directed towards Not giving DFRM with F-16 block 52, whereas when Indian were offered F-16, DFRM was already in that package. I don't understand this weird logic.
> 
> So the Uncertain Spare parts delivery plus not giving certain technologies with F-16 when Next door neighbor was allowed to have them plus Dictating how to Use F-16 is what making Us angry towards new procurement.



There's certainly a lot of angst and anger over certain aspects of the deal. It's way over our "pay grades" and we can speculate, but that's all it is. I do want to emphasize again that restrictions aren't there to make the F-16 less lethal, they exist because of very sensitive technology. 

It's like your neighbor borrowing your car, and you loan him your new Mercedes instead of a beat up old Toyota... you trust him with it.

Like I mentioned, the AIM-120 is HUGE. We sold them to Pakistan, NOT Egypt. That's saying a lot.

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## Donatello

Chogy said:


> There's certainly a lot of angst and anger over certain aspects of the deal. It's way over our "pay grades" and we can speculate, but that's all it is. I do want to emphasize again that restrictions aren't there to make the F-16 less lethal, they exist because of very sensitive technology.
> 
> It's like your neighbor borrowing your car, and you loan him your new Mercedes instead of a beat up old Toyota... you trust him with it.
> 
> Like I mentioned, the AIM-120 is HUGE. We sold them to Pakistan, NOT Egypt. That's saying a lot.


 
I like your analysis, but however, please note that AIM 120s were forced in by PAF. No point in getting BLK 52 class fighter without a BVR weapon to arm it!!!!
Also, that was 2005, when the Musharraf was offering USA anything that the Americans could dream of. Relations weren't as sour as today.


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## MastanKhan

AIM 120 is a gift which levels out the playing field-----it is a game changer----. It should be understood that nothing is forced upon the united states----. They felt that there was an urgent need to balance out the things in the sub-continent---because the ill effects of a one sided conflict would be terrible----.

Why did they not give it to egypt----there was no need to level the field-----. A conflict would be contained and stay within the local area---with no ill effects to the rest of the world. Procurements like the aim120 hold a special meaning in a relationship---and it falls more so on the receiver to understand the significance of the sale.

It is on the same level as a condemned man gets to live----pakistan and pakistanis need to learn to thank the favours they have received from america.

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## IceCold

Chogy said:


> Like I mentioned, the AIM-120 is HUGE. We sold them to Pakistan, NOT Egypt. That's saying a lot.


 
With all due respect sir i tend to disagree. The US only allowed the sale of AMRAAM once the market of BVR was open to us. R-darter as per reports is in service with the PAF. I wouldnt count SD-10 as we cannot integrate it into a US built jet. Its not that i dont appreciate the sale of AMRAAM, just setting the record straight. 
By the way Pakistan was also interested in the MICA for the JF-17 back then.


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## araz

muse said:


> So, in your estimation Pakistan policy makers will not be able to get a handle on Extremism 00 after all, other than the extremists, whom do we seek conflict with ?? And if we are not seeking conflict with any other than terrorism and terrorists, why exactly....?
> 
> The Indian is pinning his hopes on US investment in his economy and neither US nor India want to see that investment up in flames -- so I'm not quite sure why we need to spend this money and make ourselves hostage in this 8 year period till 2020? Perhaps you will elaborate on your thinking


 Muse.
What I think of the prospect of future war/wars in the region is beyond the scope of the F16 discussion at hand. However, looking purely at the PAF current fleet it needs modernization and keeping a credible deterrance against our main adversary. I am all for peace, but you know as well as anyone else that peace from a position of defence has an entirely different connotation to peace from a position of respectability. All that i am saying is that there are issues around the acquisition of FC20 which remain undefined, but may relate to the engine issue. If that is the case you could land your self in a very tricky situation relying on just the thunder in case of adversity. 
This leads you to the next question of what is plausible for PAF in the current environment . If you exclude the FC20 the next answer has to be F16s if we can get them. 
Even if we explore the option of embargo, it would boil down to a decent number of planes being kept in service by PAF , even if it means cannabolization. However, you need to realize that on the black it is much more likely to get spares for F16s than any other plane purely due to use by other vendors.
I know why people are against the acquisition but this must be looked at in the light of all the aspects I have highlighted.
I hope I have been a bit more clearer.
Araz

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## muse

Thank you for your reply - I remain unpersuaded that F16 and the US is the way to go - I do take your point with regard to Engine problems with FC20, but to jump from the frying pan into the fire -- Anything that has to do with security, so long as US is involved, is just poison - it's a unnecessary gamble - if the US is now when it refers to us as a major non-Nato ally, (and Frenemy) is engaged in maligning the Pakistan armed forces and the Pakistan state, what hope is there for any sense that relations can be normal.

The blackmail the US has engaged in, is something we can avoid, we must seek better relations with India and to bring the vision of a region in which Pakistan, India and China see their interests in cooperation rather than this US inspired antagonism.

Peace from a position of respectability is always preferred, however, aligning with so irrational, so fanatic, a policy like that of the US, not just respectability but defense of the nation itself is imperiled. Time to let the US go her own way and take her F16's with her.

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## araz

arsalanaslam123 said:


> sir all this big money and risk purchase cannot be based on a rumor about the J-10B being shelved.
> we all have gone through many reports claiming that the J-10B procurement is well on track.
> 
> as danger zone have out it, no one will advise going gambling in these crunch economic times!
> well that my point of view. i agree with MUSE and Danger Zone. there is no hurry, we must wait for the J-10B to materialize and keep our fingures crossed that the existing fleet is not grounded due to spares issues in coming time and the MLU and STAR upgrade keep on track.
> with the elections approaching, i sense lot is going to change in near future!


 
Arsalan
We are all arm chair Generals so your view is as valuable as anyone elses. I am merely quoting the ACM of PAF and not some unnamed source and you have read the news as well as me. No one is denying that the FC20 is well on track and the capabilities will eventually be on par and perhaps better than F16s. However, there are 3 objectives at hand here. 
1) *The time frame*: No one is talking about the time frame in which FC20 will be acquired.Even though there is a recent MOU for FC20s , we have had one in place since the last 4-5 yrs. What has prevented PAF from acquiring the platform since then? There has to be a reason. Do we know it? The answer has to be NO!! Secondly even if we order F16s today it will take 3yrs for delivery. How do you think our inventory will be in 3 yrs time. Now if you apply the same logic to say theFC20 will be deployed in 3yrs time, we will still need the time to develop an understanding of the plane and devlop strategies based on its strengths and weaknessses. However we have sufficient manpower trained on a plane that we already know well in the F16s
2) *Capabilities:* No one is denying that the chinese are advancing by leaps and bounds every day. However, there have been some glaring deficiencies which have been quite obvious for quite some time. A) Engine development and B) BVR missiles. PAF has long lacked the capability for BVR combat and only just acquired it with AIM 120C5. Why have we not gone for the chinese option from before inspite of the fact that the SD10 has been around for some time. We are now talking of SD10A and B as a future prospect only because the missiles are now becoming advanced enough. It goes to show that the US tech is providing us capabilites and valuable experience not only in these fields but with their fantastic pods which we did not have before.
3) *The next step:*For PAF the FC20 is the next step in capabilities and they will not go down that route till the MRCA contract is firmed up and the capabilites are known.Two PAF ACMs have been on record as saying that the fc20 will be structured to counter the MRCA contender. I strongly suspect PAF will only place an order after the MRCA contract is finalized. So we need something for the interim, which F16 serves admirably well. You also have to look at diversity (within limits ). From that point of view as well F16 seems a very good platform for us.
Araz

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## muse

I think there may be some misunderstanding -- the argument and points raised by distinguished forum member Araz, are all valid - and together they make a strong case for the F16 -- But these arguments do not account for the REALITY that the supplier has in place a policy which will continue to see relations between Pakistan and the US, deteriorate, in fact this is a given.

The Pakistan that US policy seeks to fashion is a Pakistan that the people of Pakistan will not accept, the geo-strategic environment that the US policy seeks to fashion, the eventualities it seeks to create, are not acceptable to the people of Pakistan and are in fact a mortal danger to the state of Pakistan.

The F16 is a marvelous aircraft, the PAF have experience with this ship, the infrastructure to operate and maintain this weapon system is already in place -- but what about US policy? 

The argument that these aircraft offer a capability that engenders sobriety into an adversary - unimpeachable, no question about that - but what about the US policy?

And when this weapon system and the capability it offers is actually needed -- what assurance that we can actually avail these capabilities over the range of time we need them -- again, we come back to US policy.

It is time to be sober, lets not go for this pie in the sky -- lets not allow ourselves to be blackmailed into turning over our defense to those whose hostility towards us is manifest for all to see. Lets allow them to go their way, our interests are on parallel tracks, lets recognize that and plan to attenuate threats.


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## araz

Muse 
Thank you for your response. I have never denied the difficulties that have traditionally existed with allying with the US. However the fact is that we have done so. The stupidity of this, although undeniable, is a fact that we have to live with. 
We have had this cat and mouse game of blame and shame going on for a decade while underneath the table it has been business as usual ala US and Pakistani style. In this environment we have received capabilites which we desperately needed and in many ways we have achieved some of our objectives. So it has not all been bad. 
Relations with India are not as straight forward as you think there are complexities mainly borne out of the kashmir dispute. I dare say at the expense of starting another flame war, that the issue will not be resolved anytime soon and the offshoot of it is something that will still paint this soil red in the future! While I am the last to suggest an aggressive posture and the first to go for peace, i think it is wishful thinking. So while we must always hope and pray and act to achieve the best , we would be negligent not to be prepared for the worst. 
Lets get back to F16s. HOW we LOVE AND HATE THE BEAST SIMULTANEOUSLY!!!
Regards
Araz


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## muse

> Lets get back to F16s. HOW we LOVE AND HATE THE BEAST SIMULTANEOUSLY!!!



Indeed, Alas, it's not possible to do so, without reference to the ever present US policy, is it?


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## araz

muse said:


> I think there may be some misunderstanding -- the argument and points raised by distinguished forum member Araz, are all valid - and together they make a strong case for the F16 -- But these arguments do not account for the REALITY that the supplier has in place a policy which will continue to see relations between Pakistan and the US, deteriorate, in fact this is a given.
> 
> The Pakistan that US policy seeks to fashion is a Pakistan that the people of Pakistan will not accept, the geo-strategic environment that the US policy seeks to fashion, the eventualities it seeks to create, are not acceptable to the people of Pakistan and are in fact a mortal danger to the state of Pakistan.
> 
> The F16 is a marvelous aircraft, the PAF have experience with this ship, the infrastructure to operate and maintain this weapon system is already in place -- but what about US policy?
> 
> The argument that these aircraft offer a capability that engenders sobriety into an adversary - unimpeachable, no question about that - but what about the US policy?
> 
> And when this weapon system and the capability it offers is actually needed -- what assurance that we can actually avail these capabilities over the range of time we need them -- again, we come back to US policy.
> 
> It is time to be sober, lets not go for this pie in the sky -- lets not allow ourselves to be blackmailed into turning over our defense to those whose hostility towards us is manifest for all to see. Lets allow them to go their way, our interests are on parallel tracks, lets recognize that and plan to attenuate threats.


 
Muse
I assure you that the situation is not at all to my liking either. However, we are caught between the devil and the deep blue sea (Or the Arabian Sea!!). The supplier is no doubt a problem in its own right, but then this has always remained a question of mutual interests. To date the reason Pakistan has not acquessed to the US demands points to the reality that we are fighting out for our personal interests as well. What these are and whether it is a wise move can be debated till the cows come home , and i assure you no right answer will emerge. Needless to say, ouleaders were put into a position where it was considered a must to comply with the wishes of the master. Since then it has been a war of mutual interests where we have lost most but not all the battles. 
The policies towards AfPak and specially towards Pakistan are unlikely to change as the agenda is predetermined. We probably have also bided our time and slowly maneouvered int oa position from where we can mount a defence. To say that the embargo will affect us as badly as it did in the 80s would be wrong. By delivering Bl 52s and all the asociated goodies, US has effectively ceeded the fact that the embargoes will not work now. 
So the logic works in a very weird way . 
I am sorry cant be more elaborate , but I hope you are gettting the drift.
Araz


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## muse

> To say that the embargo will affect us as badly as it did in the 80s would be wrong. By delivering Bl 52s and all the asociated goodies, US has effectively ceeded the fact that the embargoes will not work now.
> So the logic works in a very weird way .
> I am sorry cant be more elaborate , but I hope you are gettting the drift.



I do get your drift - but truthfully, I worry, this is a unnecessary gamble - once again, held hostage by these people - and Sir, I genuinely think that Pakistan armed forces misread the sentiment among people - and they misread it to their misfortune - It is no longer unimaginable that the orientation and ethic of the armed forces, is called into question.

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## Patriot

I agree with Muse - I was in 100% favor of F16's but i don't think it is a good choice for PAF now (Not the fighter itself but the political situation is fluid).Look at the IED Factory Blame, JOurnalist Killing Blame put on Pakistan by US and then arrest of Kashmir's lobbyists who worked for Pakistan.I think US is taking the game personal (As Bruce Ridel The pig who reviewed strategy for Pakistan and AFghanistan for Obama said in a video that we should make it personal with PAkistan ARmy and make sure they do what we want.)So I doubt we will even get the next F-16's.I think time is coming soon for another round of sanctions from US unless we absorb the pressure and do what the US wants.


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## soul hacker

The discussion is going awesome


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## untitled

How is the F-16 any good when we cant use them outside Pakistan? That means we will be using them for CAP and Interceptions or bombing missions within are own boundaries (the Bk 52s I mean)

Then what good does fitting CFTs on them do and fitting them with air refueling when they will do all of their flying inside Pakistan

Plus the US will be baby sitting them .... we definitely cant use them for surgical strikes out of PAK?

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## fatman17

varigeo said:


> How is the F-16 any good when we cant use them outside Pakistan? That means we will be using them for CAP and Interceptions or bombing missions within are own boundaries (the Bk 52s I mean)
> 
> Then what good does fitting CFTs on them do and fitting them with air refueling when they will do all of their flying inside Pakistan
> 
> Plus the US will be baby sitting them .... we definitely cant use them for surgical strikes out of PAK?



this is a mis-leading perception. there are no restrictions on their use.

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## untitled

fatman17 said:


> this is a mis-leading perception. there are no restrictions on their use.



So we can fly them of to anywhere ?


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## Last Hope

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/121270-i-made-f-16c.html


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## Last Hope

varigeo said:


> So we can fly them of to anywhere ?


 
Yes. All the other stuff you posted is just a rumor, from haters of F-16s/CFTs.


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## VCheng

fatman17 said:


> this is a mis-leading perception. there are no restrictions on their use.



The magic lies in the DTCs from the MPS.


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## Chogy

VCheng said:


> The magic lies in the DTCs from the MPS.



Disagree, sir - the magic can be seen in this picture. It's inside that nomex flight suit!

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## VCheng

Chogy said:


> Disagree, sir - the magic can be seen in this picture. It's inside that nomex flight suit!



Of course! But the magician in the nomex suit is only as good as the information provided to him, right?


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## Chogy

VCheng said:


> Of course! But the magician in the nomex suit is only as good as the information provided to him, right?



Definitely. Just pointing out how important the man is in the man-machine interface.


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## VCheng

Chogy said:


> Definitely. Just pointing out how important the man is in the man-machine interface.



Agreed!


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## MastanKhan

varigeo said:


> How is the F-16 any good when we cant use them outside Pakistan? That means we will be using them for CAP and Interceptions or bombing missions within are own boundaries (the Bk 52s I mean)
> 
> Then what good does fitting CFTs on them do and fitting them with air refueling when they will do all of their flying inside Pakistan
> 
> Plus the US will be baby sitting them .... we definitely cant use them for surgical strikes out of PAK?


 
Sir,

There are no restrictions on these aircraft flying across the border----but please just for the sake of common sense----don't use them against the benefactor----you don't want to find the limitations---that would be a major strategic disaster.

CFT's on the BLK 52's are more so for strategic reasons---show---that we have them and we can reach so far---the aircraft itself has very long legs without the cft----


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## SQ8

Who wants to bet that 6 months down the line there will still be people posting worrysome remarks about Kill switches and jets falling out of the sky?

You cannot shut off a jet, you will not see hollywood style computer overrides anywhere.
Where there will be chips and alarms going off, is if you sneak in some Local or Chinese engineer and let them take a peek in the Radar's processor, the Sniper pod or something else. even then, it wont set off bells in Washington right there and then. Its when it goes for servicing or hooked up to a PC for diagnositics that it will display the error.

For gods sake people, haven't you ever had your warranty void if you tore the sticker?? tried to open your laptop yourself??
its not that difficult to see how this is similar.
If they really had to shut you down , they would have done that on may 2. 
Those Block 52's can without an IOTA of a doubt, fly all the way to Calcutta if need be, Fire Aim-120's at enemy jets , use the sniper pod to identify and designate a target .. then drop a GBU on it.

The DTC issue was there even with our existing F-16's.. guess what, we found a workaround a few months after the US delivered them. How long do we need for this one?? 5 .. 6 months perhaps??
Why do you think we like the F-16 so much, because we know exactly which screw , what material , what dia can be obtained from so and so alternate supplier.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Santro said:


> Those Block 52's can without an IOTA of a doubt, fly all the way to Calcutta if need be, Fire Aim-120's at enemy jets , use the sniper pod to identify and designate a target .. then drop a GBU on it.



all that matters in the end, my friend....

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## VCheng

Santro said:


> Who wants to bet that 6 months down the line there will still be people posting worrysome remarks about Kill switches and jets falling out of the sky?
> 
> You cannot shut off a jet, you will not see hollywood style computer overrides anywhere.
> Where there will be chips and alarms going off, is if you sneak in some Local or Chinese engineer and let them take a peek in the Radar's processor, the Sniper pod or something else. even then, it wont set off bells in Washington right there and then. Its when it goes for servicing or hooked up to a PC for diagnositics that it will display the error.
> 
> For gods sake people, haven't you ever had your warranty void if you tore the sticker?? tried to open your laptop yourself??
> its not that difficult to see how this is similar.
> If they really had to shut you down , they would have done that on may 2.
> Those Block 52's can without an IOTA of a doubt, fly all the way to Calcutta if need be, Fire Aim-120's at enemy jets , use the sniper pod to identify and designate a target .. then drop a GBU on it.
> 
> The DTC issue was there even with our existing F-16's.. guess what, we found a workaround a few months after the US delivered them. How long do we need for this one?? 5 .. 6 months perhaps??
> Why do you think we like the F-16 so much, because we know exactly which screw , what material , what dia can be obtained from so and so alternate supplier.



Santro: With all due respect, your explanatory points are way too simplistic, and since I know you know better, this must be intentional. I won't say anymore here in deference to you.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> all that matters in the end, my friend....


 
Abu: I will defer to you, but just to respect your wish to end this matter here.

However, please note that I have robust reasons to disagree with you both, respectfully.


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## Donatello

VCheng said:


> Santro: With all due respect, your explanatory points are way too simplistic, and since I know you know better, this must be intentional. I won't say anymore here in deference to you.
> 
> 
> 
> Abu: I will defer to you, but just to respect your wish to end this matter here.
> 
> However, please note that I have robust reasons to disagree with you both, respectfully.


 

VCheng, you may post your robust reasons and have us look at them. This is a discussion forum after all. Maybe we can learn from each other? Learn what you may know and what we may not??


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Santro: With all due respect, your explanatory points are way too simplistic, and since I know you know better, this must be intentional. I won't say anymore here in deference to you.
> 
> 
> 
> Abu: I will defer to you, but just to respect your wish to end this matter here.
> 
> However, please note that I have robust reasons to disagree with you both, respectfully.


 
Just meeting the needs of the layman..
There are issues with the DTC and specifically a procedure that needs the US def attache here to release a weekly code gen for the DTC.
But this was discussed earlier as well.. our earlier jets had a similar problem/procedure , but thanks to some nice jordanians hosting us with _zionist conspirators _.. we were able to find a workaround for this. 

So its not a MAJOR stumbling block, all in all.. these jets can, and will fly and fight where ever we want them to(although its not recommended to try to do so towards our western border). 
Its HOW long can they fly and fight that is the bigger question.


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## VCheng

Santro said:


> Just meeting the needs of the layman..
> There are issues with the DTC and specifically a procedure that needs the US def attache here to release a weekly code gen for the DTC.
> But this was discussed earlier as well.. our earlier jets had a similar problem/procedure , but thanks to some nice jordanians hosting us with _zionist conspirators _.. we were able to find a workaround for this.
> 
> So its not a MAJOR stumbling block, all in all.. these jets can, and will fly and fight where ever we want them to(although its not recommended to try to do so towards our western border).
> Its HOW long can they fly and fight that is the bigger question.



Fair enough. I am happy to stop here without going into deeper details. 

BTW, which planes were scrambled on May 2nd after the OBL raid was discovered? 



penumbra said:


> VCheng, you may post your robust reasons and have us look at them. This is a discussion forum after all. Maybe we can learn from each other? Learn what you may know and what we may not??


 
No Sir, I love Pakistan too much to put anything at risk by trying to display any such information.


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Fair enough. I am happy to stop here without going into deeper details.
> 
> BTW, which planes were scrambled on May 2nd after the OBL raid was discovered?
> 
> 
> 
> No Sir, I love Pakistan too much to put anything at risk by trying to display any such information.


 
good old F-16's.. apparently the AF command thought the Indians were upto something.
When they figured out it was good old uncle sam , they went in anyway. Again.. the F-16 isnt exactly useless against the US(although armed with Aim-9's against Aim-120 equipped jets was probably going to have them massacred).

The above is all from the grapevine .


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## VCheng

Santro said:


> good old F-16's.. apparently the AF command thought the Indians were upto something.
> When they figured out it was good old uncle sam , they went in anyway. Again.. the F-16 isnt exactly useless against the US(although armed with Aim-9's against Aim-120 equipped jets was probably going to have them massacred).
> 
> The above is all from the grapevine .



I will accept your response without any dissection, discussion or difference, my dear Santro.


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> I will accept your response without any dissection, discussion or difference, my dear Santro.


 
Arent we being generous today.

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## VCheng

Santro said:


> Arent we being generous today.



No Sir, merely prudent.

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## Bratva

I didnt knew What VCheng is talking, so i googled, and came across his discussion on Pak wheels about Data transfer Cartridges and Code needed to Run DTC. And how DTC changed with time and become more complex in nature because of large volume of Data being transferred in Latest Blocks of F-16 and NSA is doing coding for DTC..... so PAF can not work around this time to by pass the DTC code

But what i Didn't understand, Why DTC need codes to Run in first Place? It is the first time i'm hearing this kind of thing, Some one care to enlighten new members here mor?


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## SQ8

mafiya said:


> I didnt knew What VCheng is talking, so i googled, and came across his discussionon Pak wheels about Data transfer Cartridges and Code needed to Run DTC. And how DTC changed with time and become more complex in nature because of large volume of Data being transferred in Latest Blocks of F-16 and NSA is doing coding for DTC..... so PAF can not work around this time to by pass the DTC code
> 
> But what i Didn't understand, Why DTC need codes to Run in first Place? It is the first time i'm hearing this kind of thing, Some one care to enlighten new members here mor?


 
I had a feeling this would come up..
DTC contains in layman's terms the bootdisk of the F-16.
You can start the F-16 without it, but your jet wont know the mission plan, the map wont display any waypoints,.. in some cases the ECM would not know what threats to expect, targeting pods may not startup etc.
Early DTC's were based on tape and cartridge.. simple coding..we figured it out.
Its like a car security system .. sort of anyway.
New DTC's use levels of encryption to ensure that the Jets cannot be fed incorrect data in case the system is compromised.. and in case of wayward allies like us, the jets arent used for anything else that what their authorized uses are.
The thing is though, even with encryption and stuff. There are workarounds for such a system, for starters..... 

nope...thats pretty much it.

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## Bratva

Santro said:


> I had a feeling this would come up..
> DTC contains in layman's terms the bootdisk of the F-16.
> You can start the F-16 without it, but your jet wont know the mission plan, the map wont display any waypoints,.. in some cases the ECM would not know what threats to expect, targeting pods may not startup etc.
> Early DTC's were based on tape and cartridge.. simple coding..we figured it out.
> Its like a car security system .. sort of anyway.
> New DTC's use levels of encryption to ensure that the Jets cannot be fed incorrect data in case the system is compromised.. and in case of wayward allies like us, the jets arent used for anything else that what their authorized uses are.
> The thing is though, even with encryption and stuff. There are workarounds for such a system, for starters.....
> 
> nope...thats pretty much it.


 
one little thing left, Why DTC code can't be generated by PAF locally instead of Lockheed Martin providing DTC codes to PAF which regenerates them?


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## VCheng

Santro said:


> I had a feeling this would come up..
> DTC contains in layman's terms the bootdisk of the F-16.
> You can start the F-16 without it, but your jet wont know the mission plan, the map wont display any waypoints,.. in some cases the ECM would not know what threats to expect, targeting pods may not startup etc.
> Early DTC's were based on tape and cartridge.. simple coding..we figured it out.
> Its like a car security system .. sort of anyway.
> New DTC's use levels of encryption to ensure that the Jets cannot be fed incorrect data in case the system is compromised.. and in case of wayward allies like us, the jets arent used for anything else that what their authorized uses are.
> The thing is though, even with encryption and stuff. There are workarounds for such a system, for starters.....
> 
> nope...thats pretty much it.



Pretty much says it all:



> the jets arent used for anything else that what their authorized uses are.



"Workarounds" are never the real deal!


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## Dazzler

Work around or not, Yanks will shout anyway like they did in Harpoon "tweaking" case a few years back.


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## VCheng

BTW, the Pakistani F-16 DTCs are between 30-50 GB in capacity, are created by a secure NSA-approved MPS computer, and authorise running several million lines of code operating multiple inter-operating systems during the course of any mission.

Also, it is impossible to remove secure epoxy embedded SMD microchips without irreversibly destroying them.

If Pakistan has developed work-arounds, then it is truly a remarkable achievement!


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> BTW, the Pakistani F-16 DTCs are between 30-50 GB in capacity, are created by a secure NSA-approved MPS computer, and authorise running several million lines of code operating multiple inter-operating systems during the course of any mission.
> 
> Also, it is impossible to remove secure epoxy embedded SMD microchips without irreversibly destroying them.
> 
> If Pakistan has developed work-arounds, then it is truly a remarkable achievement!


 
My cousin removes and replaces epoxy embedded, soldered etc.. chips from multiple hardware bought from western companies for local production(ala Chinese substitute) . Believe me, it aint that tough.

The source code for the F-16's will never be available, but the Ground station that does the program is, go figure.


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## VCheng

Santro said:


> My cousin removes and replaces epoxy embedded, soldered etc.. chips from multiple hardware bought from western companies for local production(ala Chinese substitute) . Believe me, it aint that tough.
> 
> The source code for the F-16's will never be available, but the Ground station that does the program is, go figure.



Oh I have no problems in figuring things out. It takes a lot more than a few brainy cousins and pirated workstations to jailbreak an F-16. 

(I think I will let things be at this point. Over and out!)


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Oh I have no problems in figuring things out. It takes a lot more than a few brainy cousins and pirated workstations to jailbreak an F-16.
> 
> (I think I will let things be at this point. Over and out!)


 
Off course it does, and we have plenty of brainy cousins around here that will and do work their ***** off on jailbreaking F-16's, tomahawks , harpoons.. etc. not to mention a lot more brainy Chinese cousins. 
It isnt a cakewalk.. but it aint impossible either...and not something that HAS NOT been done before.

Sure the newest antibiotics are really good.. but the latest influenza virus is also adapts quickly.


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## TaimiKhan

Santro said:


> My cousin removes and replaces epoxy embedded, soldered etc.. chips from multiple hardware bought from western companies for local production(ala Chinese substitute) . Believe me, it aint that tough.
> 
> The source code for the F-16's will never be available, but the Ground station that does the program is, go figure.


 
Sir Ji, kiisay samjhaa rahay hain ?? The one who said JF-17 is a blunder and God knows what not without verifying the info first and published a blunder himself. 

For our respectable VCheng Siir Pakistan is shiet and so are the Pakistanis, in his views we are not capable of doing anything.

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## VCheng

TaimiKhan said:


> Sir Ji, kiisay samjhaa rahay hain ?? The one who said JF-17 is a blunder and God knows what not without verifying the info first and published a blunder himself.
> 
> For our respectable VCheng Siir Pakistan is shiet and so are the Pakistanis, in his views we are not capable of doing anything.



JF-17 is not a blunder, but it is not all it is hyped to be either. Time will prove my assessment.

Pakistan is not shiet and I have never said so, so please do not attribute words to me that are incorrect.

The ability has always been there, but look at the state of affairs in the country, which speaks for itself.

Besides, I have already accepted Santro's statements.

Now, back to the topic of the thread, which is the F-16 and not me.


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## Manticore

Santro said:


> Off course it does, and we have plenty of brainy cousins around here that will and do work their ***** off on jailbreaking F-16's, tomahawks , harpoons.. etc. not to mention a lot more brainy Chinese cousins.
> It isnt a cakewalk.. but it aint impossible either...and not something that HAS NOT been done before.
> 
> Sure the newest antibiotics are really good.. but the latest influenza virus is also adapts quickly.


 
sir you have a very big family of 'cousins' 

vcheng


> JF-17 is not a blunder, but it is not all it is hyped to be either. Time will prove my assessment.


i still remember the long debate 8 months back.. you are still holding your ground!


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## VCheng

ANTIBODY said:


> sir you have a very big family of 'cousins'
> 
> vcheng
> 
> i still remember the long debate 8 months back.. *you are still holding your ground*!



*Yes*. I do not form my assessments lightly.

And with the Pakistani F-16s, I have good reasons to say what I have said, and I stand by that assessment too.

Having said that, I have no ego to prevent me from accepting Santro's claims _prima facie_ as there is nothing to be gained by revealing anything more.


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## SQ8

ANTIBODY said:


> sir you have a very big family of 'cousins'


 
Well.. not all are my cousins.. some are your cousins.. some are cousins of cousins.. some are "Islami" type cousins..
some are cousins of Chinese members..
its a cousin thing.

Point being.. just because there arent 50 MIT or Caltech grads sitting in a room whizzing their brains out doesn't mean we cannot find a workaround.
An impossible thing is to get past the security checks to the workaround without setting them off and letting people know we are working around it.

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## TaimiKhan

VCheng said:


> JF-17 is not a blunder, but it is not all it is hyped to be either. Time will prove my assessment.



No idea what hype thingy are you talking about it. Everyone said its better then the ones its replacing that is the A-5s, Mirage III & Vs & F-7s, which is the truth. Its not better then Blk 52s, which we accept, but yeah its better in some sections when compared to the older F-16s, which is very logical by looking at the tech being used in it and that we had studied the F-16 design while making the JF-17s, but its less in range, payload and engine power when compared to older F-16s. So now what is the hype thingy in it ?? Did anyone said its superior to or equal to F-22s, Rafales or even Eurofighters ?? All it has been hyped is that its better then the older 2nd gen planes and has few things which are as good as the 4th gen capability, while it lacks in few other things. 

Would love to hear your these hyped things about JF-17 in the main JF-17 thread. Do write plz, would be waiting for them. 



> Pakistan is not shiet and I have never said so, so please do not attribute words to me that are incorrect.



I did not said that you said that, i said to you, meaning you think that way and what you write shows that. And its not just my opinion. 



> The ability has always been there, but look at the state of affairs in the country, which speaks for itself.



So does that means you sit abroad and bash Pakistan and Pakistanis only ?? No actions in that regard to help the country which you show in your profile tag ?? You can write something in that regard if not able to come to Pakistan and do something for it. Why the anti-Pakistan attitude only every time ?? Never saw any positive thing from you about Pakistan since the day i have seen you on this forum and ironically you came to this forum on the same anti-Pakistan attitude when i had written with facts about your that blunder filled article about yet another anti-Pakistan JF-17 article with so many misinformed facts, which unfortunately stands to this day. Why just pessimism, why not any optimism ??? 



> Besides, I have already accepted Santro's statements.



Doesn't seems so.



> Now, back to the topic of the thread, which is the F-16 and not me.


 
Yeah why not Sir, but i would be looking at that JF-17 thread about your so called hyped things about JF-17.

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## SQ8

There is a saying... whilst a little off.. may be a little relevant here.
I think it goes like "leader ko dukh hai bohat par aaram ke saath"...or something.
you can hear from your friends about your country, you can see it on the news.. you can hear from the neighbors about it.
But unless you are here breathing the same air, drinking the same water.. and planting the same trees.
One cant take your assessment as more than 50% accurate.
In any case..everybody is entitled to an opinion.. and that has to be respected at ALL costs.
What is not respected is shoving your opinion down the other's throat or repeating the same mantra again and again for every argument.(PUBLIC message)

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## Dazzler

i like the level of respect between the two of you  Educated way of conducting an argument is always welcome. Only wish more people learn to do it this way. On topic though, PAF engineers have done more than just a tweak on blk 15s including avionic and weapon arena but i understand the blk 52 is another story altogether. Playing around with constantly monitored sensitive codes, digital seals, is not so easy. However, as difficult as it may seem, or actually is, it is still achievable.

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## VCheng

Okay, how do I say this any more clearly: I am wrong, you guys are correct. Please ignore my previous posts, and carry on your discussions as before. However, reality and facts will remain so, whatever they are. After all, results speak louder than words. Agreed?

BTW, I am just running out my subscription here on PDF. Soon you will be able to carry on your Mutual Appreciation Society without my unwelcome interruptions!

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Addition of another 18 F16 C/D does not , effects the JF17 Thunder program in no way what so ever 

Towards end of 2011 , which is 6 months from now the JF17 thunder program has already achieved its goals and success rations

a) It has successfully allowed Pakistan to be able to replace its older planes from late 60's and mid 70's
b) It has allowed Pakistan airforce to induct planes with engines that are brand new and airframe is brand new 
c) It has allowed pakistan to import and induct BVR missiles into its airforce and enhanced its capabilities
d) The J17 thunder fighter is no different in term of aerobtical maneuvering and abilities then F16 C/D
e) The avionics suit on JF17 thunder is more modern and capable then anything Pakistan Airforce had in past and it will further improve
f) The thunder program is based on "SPECIFICATION" of Pakistan airforce , and its been met mile stone reached
g) Block 2 Thunders offer more potent capabilities perhaps matching or surpassing F16 C/D 
h) Its 100% integrability with Chinese AWACS
i) The JF17 thunder is combat proven as it has run 5,000+ missions over Afghanistan / Pakistan border no doubt over since 2008
j) The JF17 thunder continues to *EVOLVE* ...








The F16 C/D offer us more in term of integration with lets say the SAAB erie eye awacs platform as a independent unit

The F16 C/D offers us , continued service for another 15 years , and getting 18 more fighters will ensure that we continue to defend border of Pakistan 

A force of 80-100 crafts of F16 C/D origin is a great option for Pakistani Airforce these are being aquired based on existing contracts we had its not something new but something we already had negotiated 5-7 years ago

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## Bratva

VCheng said:


> Okay, how do I say this any more clearly: I am wrong, you guys are correct. Please ignore my previous posts, and carry on your discussions as before. However, reality and facts will remain so, whatever they are. After all, results speak louder than words. Agreed?
> 
> BTW, I am just running out my subscription here on PDF. Soon you will be able to carry on your Mutual Appreciation Society without my unwelcome interruptions!


 
V Cheng, A JF-17 with Aesa radar, IRST, fully FBW implemented, an extra hard point, EW more refined is still worthless in your opinion?


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## Last Hope

Pakistan air force is looking to use the option for the purchase of 18 additional F-16 C/D Block 52+ fighters aircrafts. Pakistan has already taken the delivery of the first 18 F-16 C/D Block 52+ fighters aircrafts under the "Peace Drive I" package.


Pakistan air force is also upgrading its 45 F-16A/B Block 15 aircrafts through Mid-Life Update (MLU) package. Upgrade will allow F-16AM/BM (MLU) to use all the latest weapons including AMRAAM BVR missiles which were purchased with F-16 C/D Block 52+.replace those destroyed in the May 22 terrorist attack on PNS Mehran in Karachi.
_
However, there was a very strong possibility another Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate would be transferred to Pakistan when it was retired from USN service later this year._


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## alimobin memon

There is no way its is affecting jf17 program its just that f16 C+D are experienced and sophisticated piece therefore if paf has permission to buy it they are buying block2 will be better jf17 than f16 C no doubt but f16 being combat proven is better choice !!


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> JF-17 is not a blunder, but it is not all it is hyped to be either. Time will prove my assessment.
> 
> Pakistan is not shiet and I have never said so, so please do not attribute words to me that are incorrect.
> 
> The ability has always been there, but look at the state of affairs in the country, which speaks for itself.
> 
> Besides, I have already accepted Santro's statements.
> 
> Now, back to the topic of the thread, which is the F-16 and not me.


 
Oh.. dont leave now.. Skeptics are always needed to bring down those that need a healthy dose of reality.


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## araz

VCheng said:


> I will accept your response without any dissection, discussion or difference, my dear Santro.


 
An open forum is a place for learning.We all are in posession of info which can be released without compromising national security and national interests of both the nations. So if you have something to say say it and be done with it . Talking in riddles will not avail us of the opportunity to learn from you which would be a shame!!
Araz


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## VCheng

Santro said:


> Oh.. dont leave now.. Skeptics are always needed to bring down those that need a healthy dose of reality.



What upsets me no end is when my "skepticism" is attacked not with logical counter-argument, but by direct affronts to my patriotism, as if my opinion is somehow suspect just because I am in USA.

Other than that I do have a pretty thick skin.

Back to the regularly scheduled program on the F-16..............



araz said:


> An open forum is a place for learning.We all are in posession of info which can be released without compromising national security and national interests of both the nations. So if you have something to say say it and be done with it . Talking in riddles will not avail us of the opportunity to learn from you which would be a shame!!
> Araz


 
Where have I talked in riddles?

The problem arises when instead of discussing what I say, I am attacked for being who I am!

There are numerous ways in which accuracy of selected operations in the F-16 can be manipulated without the enduser being aware. These are not subject to any workarounds.

Is that a riddle? No.

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## muse

Lets get back to arguments of merit

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## Bratva

muse said:


> Lets get back to arguments of merit


 
Where there is a merit, there is a demerit too


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> What upsets me no end is when my "skepticism" is attacked not with logical counter-argument, but by direct affronts to my patriotism, as if my opinion is somehow suspect just because I am in USA.
> 
> Other than that I do have a pretty thick skin.


 
Well since you dont elaborate your arguments any further.. and as araz stated, swing around riddles.
So naturally people will start to suspect your motives when you are only dishing out a skeptic vibe, without backing it up with a detailed explanation.

On the topic as I mentioned.. the issue of the DTC and another piece of the electronic puzzle is very real and serious. But to state straight forward that us Pakistani's are inherently ill equipped to pass through hurdles is a little extreme. Especially when such hurdles have been thrown in the past and overcome. 
I am not stating that a 20 year old university graduate will just sit with nothing more than a 386 laptop and crack the DTC.
But there have been efforts made in the past with sizable commitment of resources to find workarounds to such problems. efforts which weren't entirly based on engineering, but a combination of engineering , diplomacy and illicit wheelings and dealings.


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## VCheng

Santro said:


> Well since you dont elaborate your arguments any further.. and as araz stated, swing around riddles.
> So naturally people will start to suspect your motives when you are only dishing out a skeptic vibe, without backing it up with a detailed explanation.
> 
> On the topic as I mentioned.. the issue of the DTC and another piece of the electronic puzzle is very real and serious. But to state straight forward that us Pakistani's are inherently ill equipped to pass through hurdles is a little extreme. Especially when such hurdles have been thrown in the past and overcome.
> I am not stating that a 20 year old university graduate will just sit with nothing more than a 386 laptop and crack the DTC.
> But there have been efforts made in the past with sizable commitment of resources to find workarounds to such problems. efforts which weren't entirly based on engineering, but a combination of engineering , diplomacy and illicit wheelings and dealings.



Santro, fair enough, but obviously there is a limit to what can be stated in an open forum that cannot be crossed. Even so, there are no riddles in what I say (please see my reply to Araz above).

Having said that, I stand by my statements, whatever combination of "engineering, diplomacy and illicit wheelings and dealings" may have been deployed. What workaround appears to "work" is subject to the similar limitations.

My assertion may be ignored as the reader wishes to choose. It does not matter to me.


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## araz

VCheng said:


> =
> 
> Where have I talked in riddles?
> 
> The problem arises when instead of discussing what I say, I am attacked for being who I am!
> 
> There are numerous ways in which accuracy of selected operations in the F-16 can be manipulated without the enduser being aware. These are not subject to any workarounds.
> 
> Is that a riddle? No.


 
OK! If that is the case would it mean that this is a situation that exists with every supplier, as I presume that these restrictions would be imposed by every one or is this specific to US. If this is specific to US then this would be bad for their business. If not then how do other nations deal with the situation? Lets see where we go from here. 
Araz


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Santro, fair enough, but obviously there is a limit to what can be stated in an open forum that cannot be crossed. Even so, there are no riddles in what I say (please see my reply to Araz above).
> 
> Having said that, I stand by my statements, whatever combination of "engineering, diplomacy and illicit wheelings and dealings" may have been deployed. What workaround appears to "work" is subject to the similar limitations.
> 
> My assertion may be ignored as the reader wishes to choose. It does not matter to me.


 
Again... I speak for the general response you had taken from the rest.. I have no issues with what you bring. 
And yes, the limitations are there. It took 2 years to get the workaround for the original analog DTC going.. 
Yet we got nowhere when it came to getting weapons other than the already prescribed ones to fire from the original block 15's.
Lets put it this way.. as far as the block 52's are concerned.. "chalao kaam" is what we can agree on.


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## VCheng

araz said:


> OK! If that is the case would it mean that this is a situation that exists with every supplier, as I presume that these restrictions would be imposed by every one or is this specific to US. If this is specific to US then this would be bad for their business. If not then how do other nations deal with the situation? Lets see where we go from here.
> Araz



Honestly Sir, I do not know enough about other suppliers or how other nations deal with this type of a situation to give you an answer that I can regard as truthful or complete.



Santro said:


> Again... I speak for the general response you had taken from the rest.. I have no issues with what you bring.
> And yes, the limitations are there. It took 2 years to get the workaround for the original analog DTC going..
> Yet we got nowhere when it came to getting weapons other than the already prescribed ones to fire from the original block 15's.
> Lets put it this way.. as far as the block 52's are concerned.. "chalao kaam" is what we can agree on.



The original analog DTC is a child's bicycle compared to the space shuttle of a multi-GB secure digital DTC coming from an MPS computer, and is tied down in multiple ways where Pakistani F-16s are concerned.

A "chalaao kaam" that appears to be "chaalu" may not be all that "chaalu" when push comes to shove.

And yes, like you, I know the limitations are there, no doubt, and perhaps in greater detail. Why am I attacked for saying that by some?


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Honestly Sir, I do not know enough about other suppliers or how other nations deal with this type of a situation to give you an answer that I can regard as truthful or complete.
> 
> 
> 
> The original analog DTC is a child's bicycle compared to the space shuttle of a multi-GB secure digital DTC coming from an MPS computer, and is tied down in multiple ways where Pakistani F-16s are concerned.
> 
> A "chalaao kaam" that appears to be "chaalu" may not be all that "chaalu" when push comes to shove.
> 
> And yes, like you, I know the limitations are there, no doubt, and perhaps in greater detail. *Why am I attacked for saying that by some*?


 
The same reason people on the other side of the border get offended when you talk of their MKI.. although the threshold in Pakistan is much higher.

As far as the DTC issue is concerned, lets leave it at currently unbroken. Till further news comes in , whether it can be broken in or not.. has been, will be.. is all speculation. From what I heard.. the IDF-AF took the US DTC out of the loop completely in the F-16I.. but then, those are the Israeli's. to whom clinton had promised the F-22.
The only thing we got after grovelling at the Americans feet are handcuffed jets.

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## VCheng

Santro said:


> The same reason people on the other side of the border get offended when you talk of their MKI.. although the threshold in Pakistan is much higher.
> 
> As far as the DTC issue is concerned, lets leave it at currently unbroken. Till further news comes in , whether it can be broken in or not.. has been, will be.. is all speculation. From what I heard.. the IDF-AF took the US DTC out of the loop completely in the F-16I.. but then, those are the Israeli's. to whom clinton had promised the F-22.
> The only thing we got after grovelling at the Americans feet are handcuffed jets.



Thank you for a fair post that I can accept graciously. 

The IDF is a different case altogether.

Edit: Can you please tell me what this "reason" is so that I may be able to avoid it if at all possible?



> _"The same reason people on the other side of the border get offended when ....." _


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## Last Hope

Working mechanics of a AIM-120.

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## air marshal

*Aviation Art by Rehan Siraj* - *BLOCK 52s ARRIVE IN PAKISTAN: The painting depicts a three ship formation of F-16 Block 52+ flying towards their new home base in Pakistan.*

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## soul hacker

will F16 A,B be equip wth BVR?


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## krash

soul hacker said:


> will F16 A,B be equip wth BVR?


 
Yes they will. The MLU makes sure of that.


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## Mabs

VCheng said:


> What upsets me no end is when my "skepticism" is attacked not with logical counter-argument, but by direct affronts to my patriotism, as if my opinion is somehow suspect just because I am in USA.
> 
> Other than that I do have a pretty thick skin
> 
> The problem arises when instead of discussing what I say, I am attacked for being who I am!


 
When you doubt everything Pakistani from the Thar Coal project to F-16's actual performance to JF-17's usefulness, then yes it will raise some eyebrows and people will start to questions your intentions and I don't blame them for it. There is a stark difference between constructive criticism and pointless mud slinging and you come across as a person who just does not want to *believe* in the idea of a progressive Pakistan or anything related to it.

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## VCheng

Mabs said:


> When you doubt everything Pakistani from Thar Coal project to F-16's actual performance to JF-17's usefulness, then yes it will raise some eyebrows and people will start to questions your intentions and I don't blame them for it. There is a stark difference between constructive criticism and pointless mud slinging and you come across as a person who just does not want to *believe* in the idea of a progressive Pakistan or anything related to it.



Okay, fair enough, but can you present any *tangible *results in response to the points that I raise?

The Thar Coal project is a failure so far. Fact.
The Pakistani F-16s are carefully controlled by multiple mechanisms. Fact.
The JF-17s are limited in their usefulness in their present state of development. Fact.

I believe in facts. Hope and prayer are fine, but results speak the loudest for all the world to see.

Now can we please get back to the topic of this thread?

Edit: I don't wear my patriotic credentials on my sleeve, but trust me, they are impeccable.


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Okay, fair enough, but can you present any *tangible *results in response to the points that I raise?
> 
> The Thar Coal project is a failure so far. Fact.
> The Pakistani F-16s are carefully controlled by multiple mechanisms. Fact.
> The JF-17s are limited in their usefulness in their present state of development. Fact.
> 
> I believe in facts. Hope and prayer are fine, but results speak the loudest for all the world to see.
> 
> Now can we please get back to the topic of this thread?


 
How?, it is still in the initial phase..  

How again?. What exact targets that were set for it, did it not meet? 
What concrete proof or logic other than speculation can you present in this regard?

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## VCheng

Santro said:


> How?, it is still in the initial phase..
> 
> How again?. What exact targets that were set for it, did it not meet?
> What concrete proof or logic other than speculation can you present in this regard?



... which is why I clearly say _"..... in its present state of development."_ Once developed further to realize its potential, it will be a very useful platform, and I have consistently said that too. I also have expressed hope that the real potential to indigenize more and more aspects of design and manufacturing of great portions of the airframe and later engines, plus experience in integrating avionics is the real benefit of the program.

I stand by that assessment given the present situation.


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> ... which is why I clearly say _"..... in its present state of development."_ Once developed further to realize its potential, it will be a very useful platform, and I have consistently said that too. I also have expressed hope that the real potential to indigenize more and more aspects of design and manufacturing of great portions of the airframe and later engines, plus experience in integrating avionics is the real benefit of the program.
> 
> I stand by that assessment given the present situation.


 
Again mon ami... I consider its present state of development much more satisfactory(perhaps more so than others).
In any case, that is a debate for another thread. Currently though, there are F-16 sitting around with shackles on our tarmacs.


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## VCheng

Santro said:


> Again mon ami... *I consider its present state of development much more satisfactory*(perhaps more so than others).
> In any case, that is a debate for another thread. Currently though, there are F-16 sitting around with shackles on our tarmacs.


 

Actually, so do I (please don't be surprised at that.) 

(Edit: I take it you object to the phrase "limited in their usefulness", but that is rooted in the performance of the platform compared to others in its class and theater.)

The F-16 "shackles" are quite another issue to workaround.


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## razgriz19

i agree with Vcheng that current thunders aren't exactly as useful as, atleast i expected...
we would still have to wait for a couple of years to see BVR missiles and LGBs on it.


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## VCheng

razgriz19 said:


> i agree with Vcheng that current thunders aren't exactly as useful as, atleast i expected...
> we would still have to wait for a couple of years to see BVR missiles and LGBs on it.



Thank you, and I am sure that those developments will happen soon enough.


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## Imran Khan

VCheng said:


> Thank you, and I am sure that those developments will happen soon enough.


 
i am sure BVRs already done and LGBs ready to be .


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## Abu Zolfiqar

razgriz19 said:


> i agree with Vcheng that current thunders aren't exactly as useful as, atleast i expected...
> we would still have to wait for a couple of years to see BVR missiles and LGBs on it.


 
the SD-10?


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## VCheng

Imran Khan said:


> i am sure BVRs already done and LGBs ready to be .



There will be steady development and integration with this aircraft, I am sure.


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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> i agree with Vcheng that current thunders aren't exactly as useful as, atleast i expected...
> we would still have to wait for a couple of years to see BVR missiles and LGBs on it.



and your info is based on what?


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## fatman17

*$5.1B Proposed in Sales, Upgrades, Weapons for Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s*

Jul 25, 2011

On June 28/06, the US DSCA notified Congress via a series of releases of its intention to provide Pakistan with a $5.1 billion Foreign Military Sales package to upgrade the F-16s that serve as the PAF&#8217;s top of the line fighters. Some of these items had been put on hold following the October 2005 earthquake in Pakistan & Kashmir, but the request for 36 new F-16 Block 50/52s is now going ahead, along with new weapons, engine modifications, and upgrade kits for Pakistan&#8217;s older F-16 A/Bs. The buy went through, and was accompanied by the supply of 26 older F-16s from USAF surplus stocks.

These items are detailed below, along with controversies the proposed sales have created, and some of the conditions attached to the sale by the US government&#8230;

Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s &#8211; $3 billion 
Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s &#8211; $650 Million 
Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits &#8211; $1.3 billion 
Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR &#8211; $151 Million 
Deal Updates and Progress [updated] 
Potential Controversies (July 5, 2006)


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## epinephrine

so its a nice deal going on.if we get around 80 advanced n upgraded f-16s along with 200-250 planned jf-17s n j 10s paf will be a good potent force


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## Shahzad Sultan

Sir, Fatman 17 !

New F-16 deal including weapons makes USD 3.650 billion, which means USD USD 101.389 million is per peice cost ? kindly confirm ?


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## fatman17

Crew Chief Profiles

jnr tech Tauqeer "tauqeer" mohammad 
Name jnr tech Tauqeer mohammad 
Country 
Unit 11th squadron "Arrows" 
Crewing F-16s 
f16 a and b model 
Current or Favourite assignment
11 sqn workers 
Deployments
kamra 

My Jets & Assignments
90615 
Unit 11th squadron "Arrows" 
Period 2009 - 
Current: 90615 PAF 9 sqn F-16B Block 15 OCU 
i till work on f16 aircraft 
92619
Unit 11th squadron "Arrows" 
Period 2010 - 
Current: 92619 F-16B Block 15 OCU


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## untitled

Can our F-16s (any version) carry Chinese missiles ?


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## krash

varigeo said:


> Can our F-16s (any version) carry Chinese missiles ?


 
^^^ As per my info they can only carry US made weapons.


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## untitled

krash said:


> ^^^ As per my info they can only carry US made weapons.



As per my info they could carry the French Matra's

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## epinephrine

and as per my info paf f-16s have been carrying french thomson atlis laser designation pod since 1986 n r capable of firinf french as 30 laser guided missile

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## Najam Khan

varigeo said:


> As per my info they could carry the French Matra's


A/B models can carry Matra Magic 2 missiles. ATLIS pod is also from French origin. Integration of weapons need a number of changes in avionics, PAF only has access to repairing and only allowed upgrade/modification of avionics. (From upgrade i mean the version updates of specified portions of a/c avionics, which is a necessary requirement to keep Falcons in the air!)

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## krash

epinephrine said:


> and as per my info paf f-16s have been carrying french thomson atlis laser designation pod since 1986 n r capable of firinf french as 30 laser guided missile


 


varigeo said:


> As per my info they could carry the French Matra's


 

Meant more like western made weapons.


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## VCheng

NAjAM Khan said:


> A/B models can carry Matra Magic 2 missiles. ATLIS pod is also from French origin. Integration of weapons need a number of changes in avionics, PAF only has access to repairing and only allowed upgrade/modification of avionics. (From upgrade i mean the version updates of specified portions of a/c avionics, which is a necessary requirement to keep Falcons in the air!)




But Santro suggested that the early A/B models were jailbroken, but may be that was only the analog DTC portion.


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## fatman17

VCheng said:


> But Santro suggested that the early A/B models were jailbroken, but may be that was only the analog DTC portion.



is santro the only reliable 'insider' on this forum?

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## VCheng

fatman17 said:


> is santro the only reliable 'insider' on this forum?



Honestly Sir, I have NO idea of that, I am still new and trying to figure out the lay of the land, figuratively of course.


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## DANGER-ZONE

F-16 can launch PL-5 Chinese IR Guided missile without any modification in launching rail or aircraft. 
Because its a ditto copy of Sidewinder.

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## VCheng

danger-zone said:


> F-16 can launch PL-5 Chinese IR Guided missile without any modification in launching rail or aircraft.
> Because its a ditto copy of Sidewinder.



Excellent. I assume that "launch" means that effectiveness under a war scenario has been reliably demonstrated? Will the MLU have any effect on these?


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> But Santro suggested that the early A/B models were jailbroken, but may be that was only the analog DTC portion.


 
Santro is an outside inside refractive zone guy ...

By jailbroken.. it doesnt mean one can make it fire the AMRAAM. Only what its wired for.
And I was reffering to the DTC.
There are missiles that are sidewinder compatible i think. Like the IRIS-T. Which can use the function for the winder alone.. but to use their full potential you need the software.


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## VCheng

Santro said:


> Santro is an outside inside refractive zone guy ...
> 
> By jailbroken.. it doesnt mean one can make it fire the AMRAAM. Only what its wired for.
> And I was reffering to the DTC.
> There are missiles that are sidewinder compatible i think. Like the IRIS-T. Which can use the function for the winder alone.. but to use their full potential you need the software.



Hence my question: 



VCheng said:


> Excellent. I assume that "launch" means that effectiveness under a war scenario has been reliably demonstrated? Will the MLU have any effect on these?


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Excellent. I assume that "launch" means that effectiveness under a war scenario has been reliably demonstrated? Will the MLU have any effect on these?


 
Probably .. the MLU upgrades to the computer via the "tapes" you are probably familiar with.
So unless these missiles run use launch protocols that exactly duplicate the winder.. there will be a "unrecognized device" error.. so to speak.


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## VCheng

Santro said:


> Probably .. the MLU upgrades to the computer via the "tapes" you are probably familiar with.
> So unless these missiles run use launch protocols that exactly duplicate the winder.. there will be a "unrecognized device" error.. so to speak.



Exactly. And there will be no errors displayed until necessary.


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## Najam Khan

danger-zone said:


> F-16 can launch PL-5 Chinese IR Guided missile without any modification in launching rail or aircraft.
> Because its a ditto copy of Sidewinder.


 
No, such bold steps are not appreciated in air combat.

Using two missiles with similar mechanism does not seem possible, the default values of missiles have to be exactly same, if not system will recognize it as unknown device( most probably it will display Malfunction(MAL) status to that pylon, such a status also comes when weapons are not physically loaded to the station) or it will display wrong messages at in-appropriate moments, F16s MMC/EMC will display wrong/incomplete post launching ques to the pilot. For eg, auto generating 'SHOOT' message when target is out of effective range or not meeting upto the Dynamic Launch zone (DLZ) parameters. Displaying wrong Line of sight (LOS) to the pilot, creating problems at those v.important moments of encounter. Similarly avionics may lost track of target's heading & probability of direction,distance, speed etc resulting a 'miss'....in such a scenario relying on nearest derivative of a missile is nothing less than adding last nail to your coffin!




VCheng said:


> But Santro suggested that the early A/B models were jailbroken, but may be that was only the analog DTC portion.


Some modifications were made in *only specific number of F16s*, nuclear capability was attained in similar fashion too.


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## VCheng

NAjAM Khan said:


> ...................
> 
> Some modifications were made in *only specific number of F16s*, nuclear capability was attained in similar fashion too.



I am aware of the nuclear-strike capable modifications, and their intricacies, limitations and capabilities. This forum is not a place to discuss those.


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## Chogy

AIM-9L's were patched into British Sea Harriers in a matter of days before the Falklands conflict.

IR missiles are very simple. All you need is to tap the missile's audio output, the rocket motor firing circuit, and provide power to it while it's on the rail.

Patched AIM-9's killed something like 22 of 24 attempts in the Falklands war.

Radar missiles are another matter entirely.

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## Najam Khan

Chogy said:


> AIM-9L's were patched into British Sea Harriers in a matter of days before the Falklands conflict.
> 
> IR missiles are very simple. All you need is to tap the missile's audio output, the rocket motor firing circuit, and provide power to it while it's on the rail.
> 
> Patched AIM-9's killed something like 22 of 24 attempts in the Falklands war.
> 
> Radar missiles are another matter entirely.


 
Sir i doubt with F16 such 'plug and play' mechanism is so easy, its avionics & on board computer has strict protocols for such kind of weapon integration, adding some inconsistent weapon will have results similar to the ones explained above.

As far as PL5 is concerned, its integration with F16 is not possible because of the switchology with that missile.


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## Imran Khan

india rocks said:


> which radar is in blk 52????


 
APG-68(V)9 radar


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## Abu Zolfiqar

india rocks said:


> which radar is in blk 52????


 
APG-68(V)9


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## TOPGUN

So is there anymore current news on the option for new 18 vipers more or older vipers ?


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## DANGER-ZONE

NAjAM Khan said:


> Sir i doubt with F16 such 'plug and play' mechanism is so easy, its avionics & on board computer has strict protocols for such kind of weapon integration, adding some inconsistent weapon will have results similar to the ones explained above.
> 
> As far as PL5 is concerned, its integration with F16 is not possible because of the switchology with that missile.


 
Living example is JF-17 which can fire both missiles through wingtip rail.. as Chogy said it really is simple. but PAF wont need PL-5 on f-16s at the moment because they already have access amount of Aim-9. but in case its not that hard to integrate. heat seekers are like PLUG and PLAY .
Israel introduced several SRAAM missiles to F-16.


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## air marshal

*More Pakistan Air Force F-16A/B upgrade Kits Ordered*
July 30, 2011

_* Lockheed Martin has been awarded a new contract to provide an additional ten upgrade kits for Pakistan Air Force F-16A/B Block 15 fighters_

LOCKHEED MARTIN was awarded a $42.31 million Foreign Military Sales contract on July 29 through the US Air Force for ten additional Enhanced Modernisation Program kits for Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft.

The order follows on from a previous $325.485 million deal for 35 F-16A/B Block 15 Mid-Life Update (MLU) kits that was awarded to Lockheed Martin on May 21, 2010.

Prior to this, a deal had already been signed on June 29, 2009, with Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) for installation of the kits on these aircraft.

Pakistani defence officials subsequently confirmed on December 10, 2010, that a final agreement had been signed the previous week for the installation work by TAI.

Work then commenced around two months later, when the PAF sent the first F-16s to TAI&#8217;s facility in Ankara for upgrade. Only the first two or three aircraft are being worked on in Ankara, following which the remaining F-16s are being upgraded locally by TAI personnel in Pakistan.

More Pakistan Air Force F-16A/B upgrade Kits Ordered: key.Aero: The Homepage of Aviation

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## ziaulislam

this is good news it means we will get hopefully by 2015 around 77 block52 standarad aircrafts...(if america release the 14 sanctioned one)


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## Imran Khan

air marshal said:


> *More Pakistan Air Force F-16A/B upgrade Kits Ordered*
> July 30, 2011
> 
> _* Lockheed Martin has been awarded a new contract to provide an additional ten upgrade kits for Pakistan Air Force F-16A/B Block 15 fighters_
> 
> LOCKHEED MARTIN was awarded a $42.31 million Foreign Military Sales contract on July 29 through the US Air Force for ten additional Enhanced Modernisation Program kits for Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft.
> 
> The order follows on from a previous $325.485 million deal for 35 F-16A/B Block 15 Mid-Life Update (MLU) kits that was awarded to Lockheed Martin on May 21, 2010.
> 
> Prior to this, a deal had already been signed on June 29, 2009, with Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) for installation of the kits on these aircraft.
> 
> Pakistani defence officials subsequently confirmed on December 10, 2010, that a final agreement had been signed the previous week for the installation work by TAI.
> 
> Work then commenced around two months later, when the PAF sent the first F-16s to TAI&#8217;s facility in Ankara for upgrade. Only the first two or three aircraft are being worked on in Ankara, following which the remaining F-16s are being upgraded locally by TAI personnel in Pakistan.
> 
> More Pakistan Air Force F-16A/B upgrade Kits Ordered: key.Aero: The Homepage of Aviation


 

these kits for 14 f-16 which we get from USAF ? am i right?


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## epinephrine

we have currently 63 F-16s.if we get additional 18 c/d then the total will be 81.if we get the 14 which r currently held by us navy then we will be having 95.


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## Imran Khan

epinephrine said:


> we have currently 63 F-16s.if we get additional 18 c/d then the total will be 81.if we get the 14 which r currently held by us navy then we will be having 95.


 
63 and thats it IF is far from us as planet Pluto dear .itS in USA hands .thats mean hard to bring then bring from pluto lolz


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## Cool_Soldier

Current US_PAk situation created doubts about delivery of 14 F16 that US promised to give back and there is also uncertainty for further placing an order for optional 18 F16 Block52.See what happens next....?


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## VCheng

Cool_Soldier said:


> Current US_PAk situation created doubts about delivery of 14 F16 that US promised to give back and there is also uncertainty for further placing an order for optional 18 F16 Block52.See what happens next....?


 
Does this remind anyone of the old "carrot-and-stick" approach?


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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> these kits for 14 f-16 which we get from USAF ? am i right?



no for the current 45 we have in inventory!


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## fatman17

*More Pakistan Air Force F-16A/B upgrade Kits Ordered *

July 29, 2011 

* Lockheed Martin has been awarded a new contract to provide an additional ten upgrade kits for Pakistan Air Force F-16A/B Block 15 fighters 

LOCKHEED MARTIN was awarded a $42.31 million Foreign Military Sales contract on July 29 through the US Air Force for ten additional Enhanced Modernisation Program kits for Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft. 

The order follows on from a previous $325.485 million deal for 35 F-16A/B Block 15 Mid-Life Update (MLU) kits that was awarded to Lockheed Martin on May 21, 2010. 

Prior to this, a deal had already been signed on June 29, 2009, with Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) for installation of the kits on these aircraft. 

Pakistani defence officials subsequently confirmed on December 10, 2010, that a final agreement had been signed the previous week for the installation work by TAI. 

Work then commenced around two months later, when the PAF sent the first F-16s to TAI&#8217;s facility in Ankara for upgrade. Only the first two or three aircraft are being worked on in Ankara, following which the remaining F-16s are being upgraded locally by TAI personnel in Pakistan.


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## fatman17

*Only the spirit of attack,
born in a brave heart,
will bring success
to any fighter aircraft,
no matter how highly developed
it may be.* 
-- Lt. General Adolph Galland 
General of the Fighter Arm, Luftwaffe, 1941-45 
104 Victories


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## ziaulislam

Imran Khan said:


> 63 and thats it IF is far from us as planet Pluto dear .itS in USA hands .thats mean hard to bring then bring from pluto lolz



i think ultimately US would deliver them..as US itself are retiring them pretty soon..i think around 2015 they would..but then it would need upgrades too..


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## araz

VCheng said:


> Does this remind anyone of the old "carrot-and-stick" approach?


 
Games are being played from both sides. See the urgent delivery of JFT and J10s in the same light and the picture becomes clearer. At the end of the day neither side can live without each other especially in Afghanistan.So both will make compromises.No one wants to let go of their influence over the other.
Araz


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## VCheng

araz said:


> Games are being played from both sides. See the urgent delivery of JFT and J10s in the same light and the picture becomes clearer. At the end of the day neither side can live without each other especially in Afghanistan.So both will make compromises.No one wants to let go of their influence over the other.
> Araz



I agree with this. The persistently smarter players will in this game, would you not agree?


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## Arsalan

> *More Pakistan Air Force F-16A/B upgrade Kits Ordered*
> *30-Jul-2011*
> 
> LOCKHEED MARTIN was awarded a $42.31 million Foreign Military Sales contract on July 29 through the US Air Force for ten additional Enhanced Modernisation Program kits for Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft. *The order follows on from a previous $325.485 million deal for 35 *F-16A/B Block 15 Mid-Life Update (MLU) kits that was awarded to Lockheed Martin on May 21, 2010. Prior to this, a deal had already been signed on June 29, 2009, with Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) for installation of the kits on these aircraft.
> Pakistani defence officials subsequently confirmed on December 10, 2010, that a final agreement had been signed the previous week for the installation work by TAI. Work then commenced around two months later, when the PAF sent the first F-16s to TAI&#8217;s facility in Ankara for upgrade. *Only the first two or three aircraft are being worked on in Ankara, following which the remaining F-16s are being upgraded locally by TAI personnel in Pakistan.*



More Pakistan Air Force F-16A/B upgrade Kits Ordered: key.Aero: The Homepage of Aviation

two important points, 
first, now all of our existing fleet of F-16 Block 15 will have have a MLU.
second, this up gradation is being done locally. off course with US supplied kit and assistance of TAI as agreed!

a good news i guess, 

regards!

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## CallsignAlzaeem

Can somebody please tell me what are the theme colors of PAF F-16s,I am making a scale model and i am curious to know which colors are more suitable to our Falcon? Would be better if somebody pinpoints the exact Tamiya colors, Thanks in advance.


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## VCheng

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> Can somebody please tell me what are the theme colors of PAF F-16s,I am making a scale model and i am curious to know which colors are more suitable to our Falcon? Would be better if somebody pinpoints the exact Tamiya colors, Thanks in advance.



I think the greys are the same as for USAF, my guesses are FS36270 Neutral Gray and FS36118 Gunship Gray.

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## fatman17

Date Posted: 01-Aug-2011 

*Lockheed Martin awarded Pakistani F-16 upgrade deal under FMS*

Jon Grevatt - Asia-Pacific Industry Reporter - Bangkok



Lockheed Martin has been awarded a USD42.3 million contract to provide upgrade kits for F-16 fighter aircraft in service with the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). 

The contract was announced on 29 July by the US Department of Defense (DoD) and covers the supply of 10 additional kits for the Pakistani F-16A/B Block 15 enhanced modernisation programme. The deal - awarded by the US Air Force - is being processed through the US Foreign Military Sales (FMS) mechanism. 

The order represents the latest effort to modernise the PAF's F-16A/B inventory, which entered service from 1983.

In May 2010 Lockheed Martin was awarded a USD325 million deal - under FMS - to provide 35 mid-life upgrade (MLU) kits for the Block 15 aircraft (as well as 18 MLU kits for F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft). These kits are being installed under a USD75 million contract awarded in 2009 to Turkey's Tusas Aerospace Industries (TAI). Work under this deal commenced in October 2010 and will take close to four years to complete. Other PAF F-16 upgrade deals were awarded to Lockheed Martin in 2006. 

The F-16 modernisation deal was announced in the same month that Washington said it would hold back military aid to Pakistan.

Pentagon spokesman Marine Corps Colonel Dave Lapan said on 11 July that this funding - which totals USD800 million - is a combination of military aid in the form of equipment and reimbursement for Pakistani military operations under the US Coalition Support Funds (CSF). The CSF is an aid programme designed to support the Pakistani armed forces in the 'War on Terror'. 

Col Lapan emphasised the delayed funds could be delivered if the two nations can resolve "certain issues", which include the number of visas Pakistan will allow for US service members serving as trainers and proof of military operations under the CSF programme to enable the processing of US reimbursement.

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## Last Hope



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## TOPGUN

Last Hope said:


>


 
Damn what a beauty man mashallah


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## air marshal

*Lockheed to provide Pakistan with 10 F-16 upgrade kits*
July 29, 2011

By Greg Waldron

Lockheed Martin has secured a $42.3 million contract to provide 10 upgrade kits for Pakistan's F-16 A/B aircraft, under the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programme.

Despite troubled relations with Washington after the American special forces' 2 May raid into Pakistan to kill Al Qaeda chief Osama Bin Laden, the Pentagon continues to support the South Asian country's air force.

The upgrade kit deal follows a late July announcement that specialist communications producer L-3 Communications was awarded a contract to build two F-16C Block 52 aircrew training devices for the Pakistan Air Force.

In late May, the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency announced that Pakistan had requested a FMS deal to acquire spare parts for a number of its aircraft, including the Lockheed Martin C-130 transport, F-16 fighter and T-33 trainer, as well as the Cessna T-37 trainer.

Earlier this year the Pakistani air force inducted 17 new F-16 Block 52+ fighters into 5 Squadron - part of an 18-aircraft deal signed in 2006.

Pakistan's 34 F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft are also undergoing mid-life upgrades.

Lockheed to provide Pakistan with 10 F-16 upgrade kits


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## gambit

This article may not be about Pakistani F-16s but it is highly relevant to the aircraft's sustainability over the long term...

ksl.com - Hill civilian's engineering saves millions on F-16 repairs


> August 3rd, 2011 @ 2:29pm
> By Steve Fidel
> 
> HILL AIR FORCE BASE  Moving parts that control the radar antenna inside the nose of an F-16 were designed to last a lifetime.
> 
> And they did.
> 
> But then that life expectancy of a decade or less was extended: The F-16 program turns 33 later this month, and F-16s are expected to be part of the Air Force inventory until 2025.
> 
> Maintenance complications have developed when the vastly extended life of the aircraft meant those lifetime parts began to need repair. In the case of the radar antenna, *removing the internal bearings sometimes resulted in $12,500 damage to the back of the surrounding base assembly, which takes 16 hours of labor to replace and requires another $12,000 in new electrical wiring.*
> 
> Terry Rettenberger, an equipment specialist with the 416th Supply Management Squadron at Hill Air Force Base, took the problem to the component manufacturer in 2008. Instead of finding a solution, he said he was simply told: "That happens a lot."
> 
> The response stirred the creative energy of a man who *does not have an engineering degree, but is an engineering "natural."* He has also worked with missile systems and electrical components on the F-4. On his own time, he pilots his own plane, has built and raced dragsters and has a sophisticated metal shop at home.
> 
> He drew sketches and then went home and got to work. "I made all this at home with my own material," he said of the tools he has made.
> 
> Along with other tools Rettenberger built exclusively for use on F-16s, the the base now uses Rettenberger's innovations on each of the 550 to 600 F-16s that come through the repair depot each year.
> 
> The Air Force figures Rettenberger saved them $6.5 million in the first year alone. The accomplishment resulted in Rettenberger receiving an Air Force Productivity Excellence Award and a $30,000 reward from the Air Force's IDEA program.
> 
> "The IDEA program is an excellent way to reward employees who suggest ideas that create a more efficient way forward for the Air Force," said Teri Gibby, IDEA program manager at Hill.
> 
> Rettenberger credits his entire team for the design and implementation of his ideas. He used part of the reward money to expand his home and shop. "I bought more tools," he said. "I've got three ideas that I'm working on right now."


The USAF encourages such creativity from all ranks, military and civilian, as long as their ideas are submitted through appropriate technical and safety review panels. The F-16 is a very tight working aircraft, tight as in space limited. Foreign Object Damages (FOD) is a major concern and a non-accounted piece of metal even as small as a piece of safety wire can ground the aircraft for days. That 16-hours labor to replace a wire bundle through the avionics bay bulkheads has very much the potential to ground the aircraft because of unexpected problems. Anything to reduce that potentiality is desirable.

This article give the lay readers some insights into the rarely seen and not too glamorous aspects of military aviation: Maintenance.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Why don't we just buy the F16 company factory , since US is under so much deby we can probbly buy it for 1-2 billion dollars ?


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## karan.1970

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Why don't we just buy the F16 company factory , since US is under so much deby we can probbly buy it for 1-2 billion dollars ?


 
The same debt ridden US and IMF grants you aid and loans to keep your economy running.. Think about it


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## DESERT FIGHTER

karan.1970 said:


> The same debt ridden US and IMF grants you aid and loans to keep your economy running.. Think about it


 
We didnt die in the 70s n 90s n im sure we wont die even if they sanction us again........ 

Relationship with america has given us problems nothing else.


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## VCheng

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Why don't we just buy the F16 company factory , since US is under so much deby we can probbly buy it for 1-2 billion dollars ?



Sure, please put in a bid for it immediately!


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## CallsignAlzaeem

In one recent flightglobal article i read that ''17'' out of 18 F-16 Block 52+ have been delivered,So there is one more pending delivery? Can somebody please clear it up for me?


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## krash

karan.1970 said:


> The same debt ridden US and IMF grants you aid and loans to keep your economy running.. Think about it


 
DING DING DING!!! We have a winner for the 2011 idiocy world championships!

ps: And what might be the point of your post exactly in response to the post you quoted.......?


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## TOPGUN

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> In one recent flightglobal article i read that ''17'' out of 18 F-16 Block 52+ have been delivered,So there is one more pending delivery? Can somebody please clear it up for me?


 
It was still in the US for futher testing... iam not sure  if it has come home yet perhaps soon if not.


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## TOPGUN

krash said:


> DING DING DING!!! We have a winner for the 2011 idiocy world championships!
> 
> ps: And what might be the point of your post exactly in response to the post you quoted.......?


 
He is from the clan of trolls & haters what more is expected out of them let them hate and go to hell.

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## air marshal

*The PAF in the Afghan War - Shooting Down the First Soviet Aircraft*

On August 4, 1988, PAF F-16 shot down Russian SU-25 and its pilot Colonel Rudskoi Alexander Vladimirovich who ejected was taken POW. Squadron Leader Athar Bukhari of No. 14 Squadron was the pilot of the F-16 while this night interception was conducted on radar by Squadron Leader Taufiq Raja.

PAF Falcons - The PAF in the Afghan War

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## Abu Zolfiqar

an EXCELLENT milestone, and a great day for the PAF

thanks for sharing!


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## air marshal

*Illustration by Group Captain (Retd) Syed Masood Akhtar Hussaini*

*F-16 Vs SU-25
2010 HOURS, 4 AUGUST 1988 - NEAR MIRANSHAH*

One of the most lethal weapons used by the Soviet Union in Afghanistan was their latest fighter bomber, the SU-25. During one of its night engagements with the Pakistani F-16 inside Pakistan, the SU-25 was shot down and its Russian pilot who ejected was taken POW. The Pilot of the SU-25, Colonel Rudskoi Alexander Vladimirovich, was also the Inspector of SU-25s deployed in Afghanistan. He was eventually handed over to the Russian authorities on 16 August 1988. This officer rose to the position of Vice President of Russia in 1991. Squadron Leader Athar Bukhari of No 14 Squadron was the pilot of the F-16 while this night interception was conducted on radar by Squadron Leader Taufiq Raja.

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## MZUBAIR

read a good newz in todays paper, so all F-16's will be upgraded by 2012 by Turkish Engineers in Pakistan


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## fatman17

DATE:03/08/11
SOURCE:Flight International


*Lockheed looks for extra F-16 orders* 


By Dominic Perry

Production of the Lockheed Martin F-16 will begin to shut down or experience "significant gaps", unless the company secures new orders for the fighter by the end of the year.

Chief executive Bob Stevens said Martin is was still waiting on procurement decisions from Iraq and Oman and from the US government, on whether to sell new F-16s to Taiwan.

Although Lockheed has told customers it plans to stop production by the end of 2013, securing additional commitments is vital to the programme, he said.

"We have, at the same time, advised that if we don't receive firm commitments for additional F-16s on or about the end of this year, then the line will certainly begin to shut down, if not have a significant gap. 

"I think that's caused a number of our global customers to evaluate their inventory needs," he added.

The company expects to deliver about 40 of the aircraft next year, with a large proportion of them assembled in Turkey by Tusas Aerospace Industries for the Turkish air force, under a 2007 deal for 30 F-16 Block 50+ fighters.

Links posted in this story: Lockheed Martin


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## air marshal

*US Lockheed Martin has secured a $42.3 million contract to provide 10 upgrade kits for Pakistan's F-16A/B aircraft, under the Foreign Military Sales program. [Source: AFP]*


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## Arsalan

MZUBAIR said:


> read a good newz in todays paper, so all F-16's will be upgraded by 2012 by Turkish Engineers in Pakistan



in today's new paper? well the news is quite old brother!



> *More Pakistan Air Force F-16A/B upgrade Kits Ordered
> 30-Jul-2011*
> LOCKHEED MARTIN was awarded a $42.31 million Foreign Military Sales contract on July 29 through the US Air Force for ten additional Enhanced Modernisation Program kits for Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft. The order follows on from a previous $325.485 million deal for 35 F-16A/B Block 15 Mid-Life Update (MLU) kits that was awarded to Lockheed Martin on May 21, 2010. Prior to this, a deal had already been signed on June 29, 2009, with Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) for installation of the kits on these aircraft.
> Pakistani defence officials subsequently confirmed on December 10, 2010, that a final agreement had been signed the previous week for the installation work by TAI. Work then commenced around two months later, when the PAF sent the first F-16s to TAI&#8217;s facility in Ankara for upgrade. Only the first two or three aircraft are being worked on in Ankara, following which the remaining F-16s are being upgraded locally by TAI personnel in Pakistan.


More Pakistan Air Force F-16A/B upgrade Kits Ordered: key.Aero, Military Aviation

there are infarct quite a few places on this forum where this is being discussed.
if you are interested in details, you can visit:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...tan-f-16-discussions-2-a-254.html#post1986805

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...tions-36-blk-52-prospects-12.html#post1986795

http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...n-air-force-f-16a-b-upgrade-kits-ordered.html

here this event is being discussed in detail!
regards!


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Sure, please put in a bid for it immediately!


 
Its actually a good idea.. they shut off in 2013 anyway..
so we buy all the stuff.. get it over here. get mian saab involved.. set up a location near Raiwind.. 
perhaps BB's clan may want a stake..
and sell F-16's to everybody..maybe even to NK.. 


Back to the topic.. 
Its a very good precedent that TAI will be doing the upgrades here.. and not in Turkey.. sort of lets us keep the airframes under watch.


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## araz

Santro said:


> Its actually a good idea.. they shut off in 2013 anyway..
> so we buy all the stuff.. get it over here. get mian saab involved.. set up a location near Raiwind..
> perhaps BB's clan may want a stake..
> and sell F-16's to everybody..maybe even to NK..
> 
> 
> Back to the topic..
> Its a very good precedent that TAI will be doing the upgrades here.. and not in Turkey.. sort of lets us keep the airframes under watch.


 
Dont forget the paya for Mian saheb for breakfast,lunch and dinner in the exec cafe teria
Araz


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Since Lockhead , will shut down F16 unless more orders are attained if we are to get F16 from Norway might as well get brand new ones from USA get 30-40 new ones block C/D with AESA radar


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## TOPGUN

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Since Lockhead , will shut down F16 unless more orders are attained if we are to get F16 from Norway might as well get brand new ones from USA get 30-40 new ones block C/D with AESA radar


 
Those 30 - 40 will cost us more money then what we can get from Norway.


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## ziaulislam

30-40 new f-16s will cost same as to get 120 j-10bs..so think about it!
or 160-180 jf-17s!

only viable option is good airframe second hand f-16s..that too in fewer numbers..i thin we should not take the number beyond 100..
as of now we have 63 (plus 14 already paid for we will get them some time=77) ..so if we add another 10-15 number will be near 100
we should try to get around 70-90 j-10s..this along with 250 jf-17 will give us a very strong airforce...

to counter the furure pakfa. we should try to get involve in proposed fifth gen single jet engine..in long run(10-15years) try to acquire 40-50 of them..


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## Luftwaffe

36 more F-16s with 500 more AMRAAMs, 100 F-16s in total 1000 AMRAAMs stairway to heaven.


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## TOPGUN

Once again as i have said before and so have some others PAF always wanted to maintain a fleet of 100 vipers now will that happen i don't know but thats the wishful thought .


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## Chogy

air marshal said:


> *The PAF in the Afghan War - Shooting Down the First Soviet Aircraft*
> 
> On August 4, 1988, PAF F-16 shot down Russian SU-25 and its pilot Colonel Rudskoi Alexander Vladimirovich who ejected was taken POW. Squadron Leader Athar Bukhari of No. 14 Squadron was the pilot of the F-16 while this night interception was conducted on radar by Squadron Leader Taufiq Raja.
> 
> PAF Falcons - The PAF in the Afghan War



AIM-9L, the LIMA. The "wish" missile, as in "I wish you were dead." BOOM, your wish comes true. Like magic. One of many reasons why extreme maneuverability is so over-rated.

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## praveen007

Lockheed to provide F-16 upgrade kits to Pakistan - Brahmand.com
.
.
ISLAMABAD (PTI): The US Defence Department has awarded Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, one of world's biggest defence production firms, a USD 42.3 million contract to provide 10 additional upgrade kits for Pakistan's F-16 aircraft, a media report said Thursday.
The contract has been awarded under the Foreign Military Sales programme, Pakistan's state-run news agency Associated Press of Pakistan said.
.
Lockheed Martin will provide upgradation kits for
the Pakistan F-16 A/B Block 15 Aircraft Enhanced
Modernisation Programme.
Meanwhile, the Express Tribune in a report said
the package includes 18 panel "simuspheres",
logistic support up to 21 months of which 12
months on-site and nine months on-call support
will be provided.
Various related hardware and software systems
are also included.
Incidentally, Pakistan had earlier ordered 50 JF-17
jets from China, its largest aircraft provider.
They are due to be delivered in six months, a
statement from the Defense Ministry of Pakistan
said.
Way back in June 2010, US delivered the first
batch of Block-52 F-16 Fighting Falcon jets to
Pakistan.
Pakistan paid USD 1.4 billion for the jets and an
additional USD 1.3 billion for the up gradation of
its previous fleet of the fighter jets, the report
said.


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## Silk

Chogy said:


> AIM-9L, the LIMA. The "wish" missile, as in "I wish you were dead." BOOM, your wish comes true. Like magic. One of many reasons why extreme maneuverability is so over-rated.


 
If you knew the effect of speed related to puling G's then you might understand that even a very agile missile can miss target in certain situations. Surely the kill zone is very big, it still is not 100% sure and there are CM to get the missile exploded before it hits target. Can't talk about that. Let me put it differently. If it was that good there was no need for AIM9X. And even that one is not 100% perfect.


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## SQ8

Chogy said:


> AIM-9L, the LIMA. The "wish" missile, as in "I wish you were dead." BOOM, your wish comes true. Like magic. One of many reasons why extreme maneuverability is so over-rated.


 
I wonder what you call the 9 mike.. the think missile? think and the bad guy is dead??

You will end up making many critics with that statements here.. especially those whose Air force operates jets with that ability.
Perhaps if the F-22 wasnt thought up in the 90's.. and today.. it would not have TVC at all.


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## M8R

Silk said:


> If you knew the effect of speed related to puling G's then you might understand that even a very agile missile can miss target in certain situations. Surely the kill zone is very big, it still is not 100% sure and there are CM to get the missile exploded before it hits target. Can't talk about that. Let me put it differently. If it was that good there was no need for AIM9X. And even that one is not 100% perfect.


He is ex-F15 Pilot man.He probably fired lots of missiles in air.I doubt it will be possible to avoid AIM9X unless the missile itself is buggy or simply jammed but by using TVC To avoid missile is pure pipe dream.


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## Chogy

No missile is impossible to defeat, but it's getting very, very hard. And only getting worse. 

Along with improved seeker sensitivity came much improved seeker slew rates, and even better, as things went digital, the algorithms that drove the missile-target intercept profile improved dramatically. For lack of a better term, missiles became smarter. 

All of the orthoganol rolls at 9G in the world are going to have a tough time with a 30 to 50 G missile.

I think that "acceptable maneuverability" is the future, rather than "hyper-maneuverability." Most important are sensors, early acquisition, and range. Kill him before he kills (or even sees) you or your flight.

P.S. missiles are now smokeless, meaning, you can't see them. And if you can't see it, you cannot maneuver against it.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Chogy said:


> P.S. missiles are now smokeless, meaning, you can't see them. And if you can't see it, you cannot maneuver against it.


 
sounds quite scary....i guess the only indication that something is coming after you is when you are being painted and the audible warning comes on

so really then, what ARE you supposed to do in that situation? Full power, jettison tanks and looking wildly in all directions?


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## TOPGUN

Chogy said:


> No missile is impossible to defeat, but it's getting very, very hard. And only getting worse.
> 
> Along with improved seeker sensitivity came much improved seeker slew rates, and even better, as things went digital, the algorithms that drove the missile-target intercept profile improved dramatically. For lack of a better term, missiles became smarter.
> 
> All of the orthoganol rolls at 9G in the world are going to have a tough time with a 30 to 50 G missile.
> 
> I think that "acceptable maneuverability" is the future, rather than "hyper-maneuverability." Most important are sensors, early acquisition, and range. Kill him before he kills (or even sees) you or your flight.
> 
> P.S. missiles are now smokeless, meaning, you can't see them. And if you can't see it, you cannot maneuver against it.


 
Chogy is that true that you are ex f-15 pilot ? or what other aircrafts have you flown ? sorry a bit of topic here .


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## Jango

Chogy said:


> No missile is impossible to defeat, but it's getting very, very hard. And only getting worse.
> 
> Along with improved seeker sensitivity came much improved seeker slew rates, and even better, as things went digital, the algorithms that drove the missile-target intercept profile improved dramatically. For lack of a better term, missiles became smarter.
> 
> All of the orthoganol rolls at 9G in the world are going to have a tough time with a 30 to 50 G missile.
> 
> I think that "acceptable maneuverability" is the future, rather than "hyper-maneuverability." Most important are sensors, early acquisition, and range. Kill him before he kills (or even sees) you or your flight.
> 
> P.S. missiles are now smokeless, meaning, you can't see them. And if you can't see it, you cannot maneuver against it.


 
Must be a really bad feeling feeling when you getting painted and the sound goes off, what are the counter measures ??,,,flare , chaff and/or out maneouvering the missile?


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## Silk

Chogy said:


> No missile is impossible to defeat, but it's getting very, very hard. And only getting worse.
> 
> Along with improved seeker sensitivity came much improved seeker slew rates, and even better, as things went digital, the algorithms that drove the missile-target intercept profile improved dramatically. For lack of a better term, missiles became smarter.
> 
> All of the orthoganol rolls at 9G in the world are going to have a tough time with a 30 to 50 G missile.
> 
> I think that "acceptable maneuverability" is the future, rather than "hyper-maneuverability." Most important are sensors, early acquisition, and range. Kill him before he kills (or even sees) you or your flight.
> 
> P.S. missiles are now smokeless, meaning, you can't see them. And if you can't see it, you cannot maneuver against it.



The countermeasures are evolving. The time of chaff and flare are gone. But I agree that it is not smart to go wvr...


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## MastanKhan

Chogy,

Thank you for your eye opening posts----so often people don't understand that sometimes the target plane blows up by a missile strike and the recipient pilot dosnot know when he died----long range high speed missile---opponents radar has a very short range---in panic heat of the battle missile lock doesnot even register.

Secondly---with the paramemters that you are talking about----there is more so a reason to break into the electronic codes of the long range missiles and radars---if yuou can get into the brains----you can fool the missile----isn't that where the late 90's research in the u s air warfare was headed towards----.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

TOPGUN said:


> Chogy is that true that you are ex f-15 pilot ? or what other aircrafts have you flown ? sorry a bit of topic here .


 
yes he served in the USAF, he is an ex- F-15 pilot

From what I recall, he flew around West Germany during Cold War (before the wall crumbling down). He engaged with East German aircrafts. 

Subsequently he became an instructor for T-38 platform.

I am probably missing some things here. I think apart from Sir MuradK, Chogy is the only combat pilot we've had on PDF.

he's a good friend

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## fatman17

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> yes he served in the USAF, he is an ex- F-15 pilot
> 
> From what I recall, he flew around West Germany during Cold War (before the wall crumbling down). He engaged with East German aircrafts.
> 
> Subsequently he became an instructor for T-38 platform.
> 
> I am probably missing some things here. I think apart from Sir MuradK, Chogy is the only combat pilot we've had on PDF.
> 
> he's a good friend



x-man is/was a combat pilot

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## air marshal




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## Chogy

Abu Z - thanks buddy.



> sounds quite scary....i guess the only indication that something is coming after you is when you are being painted and the audible warning comes on
> 
> so really then, what ARE you supposed to do in that situation? Full power, jettison tanks and looking wildly in all directions?





> Must be a really bad feeling feeling when you getting painted and the sound goes off, what are the counter measures ??,,,flare , chaff and/or out maneouvering the missile?



IR missiles don't even require a lock, so RWR won't help. They have missile launch warning systems now, but I haven't seen much data. At best, I'd guess they'll say "a missile is inbound". One problem is that every member of your flight is going to get the same warning. It'll be chaos.

Basically then yes, all you can do it jettison everything and begin a downhill orthoganol roll, dump chaff and flares, and die like a man. Hope your buddies take vengeance.

Taken as a whole, it emphasizes how important stealth and stand-off BVR is becoming.



> Secondly---with the paramemters that you are talking about----there is more so a reason to break into the electronic codes of the long range missiles and radars---if yuou can get into the brains----you can fool the missile----isn't that where the late 90's research in the u s air warfare was headed towards----.



When you refer to codes, I am assuming you mean methods to spoof radar missiles with EW. I am not convinced that missiles fly around with a radio receiver built in so that an enemy can send a digital burst and turn it off. That makes no sense. IR missiles don't have radio frequency equipment in them, anyhow. They have a cooled IR seeker, a proximity fuse that uses lasers, a rocket motor, and maneuvering package. None of these use radio.

"Check six" means nothing today. The era of maneuvering behind an opponent lasted from WW1 to approximately 1990. Gulf War 1 had NO turning fights. Not one. All of it was high-speed hit and run.

Air Forces will practice maneuvering, as there will always be a need for it, but as a percentage of operational scale, it's going WAY down in importance. Like cavalry units practicing the charge in 1925, the era of Maxim guns and fast-firing artillery with air-burst fuses. They were obsolete, but refused to acknowledge it.

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## soul hacker

if F16 with aim120 comes one to one with SU 30 MKI,what will be the scenario 

sorry for going off the topic but will be thankful if someone give me the answer


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## Silk

The next gen does have MAWS. Not extremely profitable but atleast you know where something came from. The newer gen will have laser system to counter IR attacks. But I agree that getting into WVR is no-no. The US netcentric warfare is opposing that. But what if two equal nations fight a2a. That is whole different with what the USA does. Fighting a crippled nation with overwhelming power is not a fair fight.


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## untitled

Chogy said:


> "Check six" means nothing today. The era of maneuvering behind an opponent lasted from WW1 to approximately 1990. Gulf War 1 had NO turning fights. Not one. All of it was high-speed hit and run.



Has that not that been said after every major conflict only to be proved incorrect ?


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## SQ8

varigeo said:


> Has that not that been said after every major conflict only to be proved in correct ?


 
Not really.. swords were thought to be an essential accessory.. and they were till WWI even for some. even though guns had co-existed with them for over 200 years.
But the dawn of the machine gun.. and other improvement spelt the end of realm of the blade.


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## Jango

Chogy said:


> Abu Z - thanks buddy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IR missiles don't even require a lock, so RWR won't help. They have missile launch warning systems now, but I haven't seen much data. At best, I'd guess they'll say "a missile is inbound". *One problem is that every member of your flight is going to get the same warning*. It'll be chaos.
> 
> Basically then yes, all you can do it jettison everything and begin a downhill orthoganol roll, dump chaff and flares, and die like a man. Hope your buddies take vengeance.
> 
> Taken as a whole, it emphasizes how important stealth and stand-off BVR is becoming.
> 
> 
> 
> When you refer to codes, I am assuming you mean methods to spoof radar missiles with EW. I am not convinced that missiles fly around with a radio receiver built in so that an enemy can send a digital burst and turn it off. That makes no sense. IR missiles don't have radio frequency equipment in them, anyhow. They have a cooled IR seeker, a proximity fuse that uses lasers, a rocket motor, and maneuvering package. None of these use radio.
> 
> "Check six" means nothing today. The era of maneuvering behind an opponent lasted from WW1 to approximately 1990. Gulf War 1 had NO turning fights. Not one. All of it was high-speed hit and run.
> 
> Air Forces will practice maneuvering, as there will always be a need for it, but as a percentage of operational scale, it's going WAY down in importance. Like cavalry units practicing the charge in 1925, the era of Maxim guns and fast-firing artillery with air-burst fuses. They were obsolete, but refused to acknowledge it.


 
If every member gets a warning, so what is the normal procedure, does every pilot go for his own life, or the member go for a practised maneouver in tandem?,,,is this problem existing even now?


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## VCheng

Some people are already opining that the F-35 will be the last major manned fighter jet due to the trends that Chogy just mentioned.


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Some people are already opining that the F-35 will be the last major manned fighter jet due to the trends that Chogy just mentioned.


 
There may be a 6th gen optionally manned jet.. 

If humanity hasnt nuked itself to the stone age and we are fighting with sticks and stones by then.

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## Jango

VCheng said:


> Some people are already opining that the F-35 will be the last major manned fighter jet due to the trends that Chogy just mentioned.


 
Not the gth gen , 7th gen may get a human pilot out of the cockpit, but as Santro mentioned, 6th gen is going to be optionally manned and that option is going to be excersiced alot IMO.


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## fatman17

if we go by what has been said, then why do airforces practice WVR during multi-national excercises. then if western airforces like US, UK etc only practice 'hit and run' tactics or BVR, then the 'story' of PAF pilots besting their western counterparts (UK or Italian) in WVR must be true since PAF did not have the BVR capability until 2009-2010. now it needs to 'ramp-up' its BVR proficiency if WVR is almost extinct.


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## MastanKhan

Chogy,

If it emits an electronic signal and accept an electronic signal---it can be hacked----just like my computer can be---so can the radar, the computers at the launch pad and the missile that uses electronic signals can be hacked----you just need a super computer with the right program---may take a little time. But if the missile is designed and made by you----you already have the backdoor entry option----.

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## Silk

MastanKhan said:


> Chogy,
> 
> If it emits an electronic signal and accept an electronic signal---it can be hacked----just like my computer can be---so can the radar, the computers at the launch pad and the missile that uses electronic signals can be hacked----you just need a super computer with the right program---may take a little time. But if the missile is designed and made by you----you already have the backdoor entry option----.



Exactly. If you know exactly how the radar onboard works... You just make it go crazy. Without eyes the missile is a dumb thing. Even if you do not made the missile you just get the signal and react realtime with garbage. That is where ECM, ECCM and DRFM comes... It can read the signals, and before the plane is back to base, every other plane knows the signals to counter. The dual seekers IR might counter Flares but they still get crazy if you use lasers on them.

I like pilots cause they can tell you al lot more how it works in real world. Engineers tend to go theoretical. But one thing pilots forget is what you can do more cause if there is a system then there is something in the near future to counter it. The first planes were rec planes. Then bombers. Then fighters to counter the bombers. You had guns. Then someone thought that they only needed missiles. The gun was gone. Then the gun returned cause the missiles could be countered or would not work perfect. And maybe the IR missile is not electronically stoppable but his host still needs to track and come into Visual Range. And we can go on en on.


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## Chogy

> If it emits an electronic signal and accept an electronic signal---it can be hacked----just like my computer can be---so can the radar, the computers at the launch pad and the missile that uses electronic signals can be hacked----you just need a super computer with the right program---may take a little time. But if the missile is designed and made by you----you already have the backdoor entry option----.



There is a HUGE difference between EW (electronic warfare) and hypothesized secret codes that make a system go dumb. The former exists... the latter is mostly conspiracy stuff. 

EW is getting very sophisticated. So is the counter, the hardened, encrypted, frequency-agile systems that are becoming necessary.

But there is no box in aircraft that you set to send some digital packet that will magically shut the enemy down. Engineers would have to be nuts to intentionally build a back door, an easter egg, into a system. Instead, they build their stuff to be as robust, as jam-proof, as possible.

I'd really rather not go in that direction. There are dozens of threads already on this over-hyped subject. 

Maneuvering - it'll be practiced for decades to come. And it'll be irresponsible to say a matured turning fight will never happen again. But they are going to be very rare and should not be an emphasis item.

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## babji

soul hacker said:


> if F16 with aim120 comes one to one with SU 30 MKI,what will be the scenario
> 
> sorry for going off the topic but will be thankful if someone give me the answer


 
F-16 will win . and stick on topic


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## Luftwaffe

MastanKhan said:


> Chogy,
> 
> If it emits an electronic signal and accept an electronic signal---it can be hacked----just like my computer can be---so can the radar, the computers at the launch pad and the missile that uses electronic signals can be hacked----you just need a super computer with the right program---may take a little time. But if the missile is designed and made by you----you already have the backdoor entry option----.



Very technical question and a hard one maybe professionals in this field knows better.
About the so called secret Codes I was reading about Minuteman 3 when it suffered debilitating anomaly that forced flight controllers to terminate the rocket, was it not those specific command codes that terminated the rocket.

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## untitled

Santro said:


> There may be a 6th gen optionally manned jet..


 


nuclearpak said:


> Not the gth gen , 7th gen may get a human pilot out of the cockpit, but as Santro mentioned, 6th gen is .....









*Next-Generation Bomber* or the *2018 bomber*

Next-Generation Bomber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## babji

SU-30mki have alot of disadvantages over F-16 like huge RCS, and as per pakistani bro's they are masters WVR fight, we can't compete with F-16 blk 15 or 52.


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## Jango

varigeo said:


> *Next-Generation Bomber* or the *2018 bomber*
> 
> Next-Generation Bomber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 
some points to be taken:

1- Looks very similar to B-2

2- Optionally manned for non- nuclear warheads.

3- Not intended as a step further than 5th gen, rather keeping the salient features of F-22/F-35 , but rather, the emphasis is on developing a LONG RANGE STRIKE FAMILY, to replace the outdated bombers currently in service.

4- To provide a fast platform for quick launch of offensive.

So, as i previously said, not really meant to be un manned in the true sense such as a Predator UCAV.

And lets keep on topic, shall we?


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## soul hacker

babji said:


> F-16 will win . and stick on topic


 
if you don't have a reason than just shut up or ready for get banned


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## notorious_eagle

fatman17 said:


> if we go by what has been said, then why do airforces practice WVR during multi-national excercises. then if western airforces like US, UK etc only practice 'hit and run' tactics or BVR, then the 'story' of PAF pilots besting their western counterparts (UK or Italian) in WVR must be true since PAF did not have the BVR capability until 2009-2010. *now it needs to 'ramp-up' its BVR proficiency if WVR is almost extinct.*


 
For NATO YES, but NEVER for us. 

When your enemy is right next door, its natural that majority of the battles will take place in WVR mode. For the IAF to implement their Cold Start Doctrine, the IAF will need to cross the border and engage the PAF in order to execute their war plans. They cannot just stay within their borders and try to take out our jets from stand off ranges. Our situation is similar to that of the IDAF, majority of their foes are right next door and that is why even to this day they effectively train their pilots for WVR battles.

PAF has had limited BVR capability for quite some time, they have been training in BVR engagements for almost a decade now. So they are not totally new to this concept, but obviously the introduction of the AIM120 and SD10B in large numbers is definitely a game changer for PAF. This allows them to accept the battle against the IAF from stand off ranges, that is something totally new that the IAF has to worry about. I fear that with the addition of all these BVR enabled planes, PAF will loose its edge in WVR arena a niche of which we are considered masters off. I certainly hope that PAF continues to train in both WVR and BVR A2A engagements.

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## rockstarIN

notorious_eagle said:


> For NATO YES, but NEVER for us.
> 
> When your enemy is right next door, its natural that majority of the battles will take place in WVR mode.


 
notorious_eagle, You are still not getting the point, we are close to each other it does not mean that it can't be BVR, the question is, Why should I come close if I can aim and shoot from distance where you won't see me?. 

Yes, the air bases are near. But it is not we take off and landed in PAK air space. Can roam around in the area, check the situation....swoop in...fire...revert to the earlier position... Thats what Chogy said, stealth, situational awarness and ECM is so important.


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## gambit

MastanKhan said:


> Chogy,
> 
> If it emits an electronic signal and accept an electronic signal---it can be hacked----just like my computer can be---so can the radar, the computers at the launch pad and the missile that uses electronic signals can be hacked----you just need a super computer with the right program---may take a little time. But if the missile is designed and made by you----you already have the backdoor entry option----.


Let me try this analogy I used in a class a llllooooooooong time ago. Your eyes are sensors. To pull the proverbial wool over your eyes is analogous to electronic warfare (EW). That is to produce sensory overload from the outside. But what if you have cataracts or some other related medical conditions? That is analogous to 'hacking', meaning to affect the system from the inside by using and/or corrupting its own structures.

For a radar system, it can be 'spoofed', but it cannot be 'hacked' because the signals at the receiver side are not processed as instruction codes but only as information or data. The contents of the data packet can be deliberately misleading but it would actually require a decision maker -- the human -- to act and that would be from his own instruction codes.

Rockets that are destroyed by ground commands for some reasons do not accept instruction codes from anyone. It will verify any received signals to see if the source of those signals are legitimate. That mean you cannot 'hack' the missile but must 'hack' the issuer of those commands.

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## notorious_eagle

rockstar said:


> notorious_eagle, You are still not getting the point, we are close to each other it does not mean that it can't be BVR, the question is, Why should I come close if I can aim and shoot from distance where you won't see me?.



In order for you to achieve your objectives which the Indian War Planners have outlined, there is no alternative but to cross over the border and duel the skies with PAF. You have to enter my home if you want to execute your war plan, staying within your skies will be contrary to what the Indian War Plans are. If the IAF does manage to shoot down a PAF plane from stand off range, what objective does it achieve? We are not fighting a war of attrition here, what your suggesting is contrary to the Indian War Plans. 



rockstar said:


> Yes, the air bases are near. But it is not we take off and landed in PAK air space. Can roam around in the area, check the situation....swoop in...fire...revert to the earlier position... Thats what Chogy said, stealth, situational awarness and ECM is so important.



No doubt; stealth, superior situational awareness and electronic warfare are very important assets in today's warfare. In our case neither side possess stealth aircrafts, PAKFA is no where near as low observable as the F22 is judging from its physical characteristics. Both sides field some excellent electronic warfare assets but their potency will only be revealed during wartime. Both sides have very extensive radar coverage, chances of a surprise strike are very low.

Both sides will see a strike package well before it even reaches the border, the introduction of AWACS is possibly the dumbest decision IAF has ever taken. Although PAF does possess excellent ground based radars, they have their limitations against low flying jets. The introduction of Airborne Radars cancels out that limitation, it will be extremely difficult for the IAF to conceal a strike package as our AWACS can look deep and down.


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## babji

soul hacker said:


> if you don't have a reason than just shut up or ready for get banned


 
post reported, 1st respect others. ok. n i gave reply to ur question.


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## MastanKhan

notorious_eagle said:


> For NATO YES, but NEVER for us.
> 
> When your enemy is right next door, its natural that majority of the battles will take place in WVR mode. For the IAF to implement their Cold Start Doctrine, the IAF will need to cross the border and engage the PAF in order to execute their war plans. They cannot just stay within their borders and try to take out our jets from stand off ranges. Our situation is similar to that of the IDAF, majority of their foes are right next door and that is why even to this day they effectively train their pilots for WVR battles.
> 
> PAF has had limited BVR capability for quite some time, they have been training in BVR engagements for almost a decade now. So they are not totally new to this concept, but obviously the introduction of the AIM120 and SD10B in large numbers is definitely a game changer for PAF. This allows them to accept the battle against the IAF from stand off ranges, that is something totally new that the IAF has to worry about. I fear that with the addition of all these BVR enabled planes, PAF will loose its edge in WVR arena a niche of which we are considered masters off. I certainly hope that PAF continues to train in both WVR and BVR A2A engagements.


 
Notorious,

Goodman----. You see-----IAF has screwed itself up by placing its primary air bases so close to pakistani border that at time of take off to intercept incoming aircraft----the planes are already WVR-----.

If their primary bases were farther off----they could have stayed afloat for longer and taken long shots with impunity and at their discretion-----but they have given away their primary advantage of longer legs-----why would you have a SU30 sqdrn within 2 minutes of your border with pak----when you have this aircraft that can stay afloat for 4 plus hours------what a price we pay for our posturing and strut----.

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## danger007

MastanKhan said:


> Notorious,
> 
> Goodman----. You see-----IAF has screwed itself up by placing its primary air bases so close to pakistani border that at time of take off to intercept incoming aircraft----the planes are already WVR-----.
> 
> If their primary bases were farther off----they could have stayed afloat for longer and taken long shots with impunity and at their discretion-----but they have given away their primary advantage of longer legs-----why would you have a SU30 sqdrn within 2 minutes of your border with pak----when you have this aircraft that can stay afloat for 4 plus hours------what a price we pay for our posturing and strut----.


 
why always thinking to intrude, like you did in kargil. if you want a war come anyways. if you are coming to attack our bases do you think we cant detect it.


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## rockstarIN

> [UOTE=notorious_eagle;2004406]In order for you to achieve your objectives which the Indian War Planners have outlined, there is no alternative but to cross over the border and duel the skies with PAF. You have to enter my home if you want to execute your war plan, staying within your skies will be contrary to what the Indian War Plans are. If the IAF does manage to shoot down a PAF plane from stand off range, what objective does it achieve? We are not fighting a war of attrition here, what your suggesting is contrary to the Indian War Plans.



You are not getting the point, how can you arrive a conclusion that in Pak air space, it wont be BVR? if you travel 1 km, 10 km, 50 km...it starts with one step..not from 1km. to 50km jump...there is a space where we both see each other but we have capability to shoot. (with Blk 52, you too now)



> o doubt; stealth, superior situational awareness and electronic warfare are very important assets in today's warfare. In our case neither side possess stealth aircrafts, PAKFA is no where near as low observable as the F22 is judging from its physical characteristics. Both sides field some excellent electronic warfare assets but their potency will only be revealed during wartime. Both sides have very extensive radar coverage, chances of a surprise strike are very low.
> 
> Both sides will see a strike package well before it even reaches the border, the introduction of AWACS is possibly the dumbest decision IAF has ever taken. Although PAF does possess excellent ground based radars, they have their limitations against low flying jets. The introduction of Airborne Radars cancels out that limitation, it will be extremely difficult for the IAF to conceal a strike package as our AWACS can look deep and down.


 
We both can see each other, track other..... agreed.....now (2011) both can shoot in stand off range, whats the big deal? Why should we use cavalry when we have cannons and machine guns?


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## rockstarIN

MastanKhan said:


> Notorious,
> 
> Goodman----. You see-----IAF has screwed itself up by placing its primary air bases so close to pakistani border that at time of take off to intercept incoming aircraft----the planes are already WVR-----.
> 
> If their primary bases were farther off----they could have stayed afloat for longer and taken long shots with impunity and at their discretion-----but they have given away their primary advantage of longer legs-----why would you have a SU30 sqdrn within 2 minutes of your border with pak----when you have this aircraft that can stay afloat for 4 plus hours------what a price we pay for our posturing and strut----.


 
Sir,

It is not 1960s, we both have early warning systems, both can see each other's air space 200km radius. Means both air force will know other just after it is airborne. There will not be any 'surprise' any more. It is like a scenario that we both know each others presence in beyond visual range itself..







Check the above, we have bases all over the north India


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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> You are not getting the point, how can you arrive a conclusion that in Pak air space, it wont be BVR? if you travel 1 km, 10 km, 50 km...it starts with one step..not from 1km. to 50km jump...there is a space where we both see each other but we have capability to shoot. (with Blk 52, you too now)
> 
> 
> 
> We both can see each other, track other..... agreed.....now (2011) both can shoot in stand off range, whats the big deal? Why should we use cavalry when we have cannons and machine guns?


 
because the cannon and machine guns are moving at 500 knots.


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## Pfpilot

rockstar said:


> Sir,
> 
> It is not 1960s, we both have early warning systems, both can see each other's air space 200km radius. Means both air force will know other just after it is airborne. There will not be any 'surprise' any more. It is like a scenario that we both know each others presence in beyond visual range itself..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check the above, we have bases all over the north India


 
But isnt the issue at hand that due to the close proximity of Indian and Pakistani air bases to the border, the opportunity for BVR engagements will be far less than what is expected in other parts of the world. The IAF will surely be able to track aircraft as soon as they take off, but they wont know for sure if those aircraft are about to enter Indian air space, in a war, many aircraft will be airborne at once.
The IAF aircraft will be vectored to targets that are either already over the border or approaching and the same would be true from the PAF perspective. In such a situation, by the time the aircraft are airborne or in a position to engage, it is already a WVR engagement in my cases, simply due to the lack of space both sides are working with.


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## Patriot

They will be in weapons parameters and firing an AIM120 even before crossing the border.I think the key factor will be how well our aerial assets are integrated and if everything is done right and all assets such as ground radars and AWACs and integrated nicely then we can deliver a heavy punch to enemy.Situational Awareness from Ground and Aerial perspective will play a huge role.


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## rockstarIN

Santro said:


> because the cannon and machine guns are moving at 500 knots.


 
It can, but vectored to where? and altitude? Who decides? the attacker..

Bullet speeds, does that mean knife fight has a chance in an open environment.


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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> It can, but vectored to where? and altitude? Who decides? the attacker..
> 
> Bullet speeds, does that mean knife fight has a chance in an open environment.


 
You misunderstood.
The cannons and machineguns will end up in a knife fight as well.
Not once.. but multiple times in red flag exercises.. AIM-120 shots are taken in WVR range..so thats a cannon at point blank range.
If you took off and are closer than 40nm to your threat.. by the time you lock. the enemy is a few nm closer.. you fire.. he fires.. those that survive.. will find themselves in the merge.

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## rockstarIN

Santro said:


> You misunderstood.
> The cannons and machineguns will end up in a knife fight as well.
> Not once.. but multiple times in red flag exercises.. AIM-120 shots are taken in WVR range..so thats a cannon at point blank range.
> If you took off and are closer than 40nm to your threat.. by the time you lock. the enemy is a few nm closer.. you fire.. he fires.. those that survive.. will find themselves in the merge.


 
You have the liberty to disengage, uh?
Sky has no limits, can go vertically as well as horizontaly. It does not mean WVR wont happen, you have to survive the first BVR shot to come closer...or else both can fire as you said...both will run away from their directions to unlock it, still there is enough place long range then.

And in red flags, a lock means enemy die..there is hardly any face off with the missiles..


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## Chogy

There are really THREE combat regimes, and one must understand that having actual sight of the opponent isn't the critical part. 

Let's start at 0 meters to about 3000 meters. Picture a sphere around a jet. Anything in that sphere is inside the turning circle of the jet, and this is where classical BFM maneuvers take place... hard break turns, jinks, yo-yos, all the fun stuff. If I'm intruding inside a guy's turn circle, I must respond correctly, or his own maneuvering can threaten me.

From 3000 meters to maybe 8 nautical miles in the second regime. We can generally (but not always) see each other, but we are outside of each others' turn circles. What this means - picture my F-15 pointing at an F-16 8 miles ahead of me. The F-16 immediately goes into a wild 9G turn. All it looks like to me is a guy turning a tight circle. He stays in front of me. In fact, he stays within the HUD FOV. Easy kill using AIM-9 or a radar missile.

Outside of 8 to 10 nm, we exceed the range of most IR missiles, and the tools of choice are AMRAAM and others.

This is hard to describe, but what it boils down to is that most of the killing at a merge will take place in the middle regime. All you need to do is rotate your nose through 60, 90, 120 degrees, point and shoot. The guy dies. If a defender manages to get inside my own turn circle and neutralize my ability to point and shoot, I'll say "engaged neutral, need some help" and my wingman, who is outside of both of our turn circles, will rotate, point, and shoot him. 

Survivors of the BVR barrage will almost all die from short, sharp hooks, fire, then we will extend/accelerate, and then bug out, as exploding airplanes will attract enemy eyes.

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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> You have the liberty to disengage, uh?
> Sky has no limits, can go vertically as well as horizontaly. It does not mean WVR wont happen, you have to survive the first BVR shot to come closer...or else both can fire as you said...both will run away from their directions to unlock it, still there is enough place long range then.
> 
> And in red flags, a lock means enemy die..there is hardly any face off with the missiles..


 
You are still roaming in circles..
You may disengage.. but the distance constraint means your window to do that will be very short.
You can can run anywhere.. You may take off and head east or west to get distance.
That is your strategy... But the fact is, when you are sitting a few minutes from hostile airspace, your chances of setting up a long shot away from enemy interceptors.. and or fighter sweeps is greatly diminished.


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## rockstarIN

Santro said:


> You are still roaming in circles..
> You may disengage.. but the distance constraint means your window to do that will be very short.
> You can can run anywhere.. You may take off and head east or west to get distance.
> That is your strategy... But the fact is, when you are sitting a few minutes from hostile airspace, your chances of setting up a long shot away from enemy interceptors.. and or fighter sweeps is greatly diminished.


 
The point is, what you think is an adventage might be the biggest disadventage....

And in a war scenario, jets will be always on air on petrol...armed...you do not know what where will intrude.(vice versa).remember Isaf tactics in six day war.

Its been IAF - PAF stuff, can we stick to the topic?


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## Patriot

Chogy said:


> There are really THREE combat regimes, and one must understand that having actual sight of the opponent isn't the critical part.
> 
> Let's start at 0 meters to about 3000 meters. Picture a sphere around a jet. Anything in that sphere is inside the turning circle of the jet, and this is where classical BFM maneuvers take place... hard break turns, jinks, yo-yos, all the fun stuff. If I'm intruding inside a guy's turn circle, I must respond correctly, or his own maneuvering can threaten me.
> 
> From 3000 meters to maybe 8 nautical miles in the second regime. We can generally (but not always) see each other, but we are outside of each others' turn circles. What this means - picture my F-15 pointing at an F-16 8 miles ahead of me. The F-16 immediately goes into a wild 9G turn. All it looks like to me is a guy turning a tight circle. He stays in front of me. In fact, he stays within the HUD FOV. Easy kill using AIM-9 or a radar missile.
> 
> Outside of 8 to 10 nm, we exceed the range of most IR missiles, and the tools of choice are AMRAAM and others.
> 
> This is hard to describe, but what it boils down to is that most of the killing at a merge will take place in the middle regime. All you need to do is rotate your nose through 60, 90, 120 degrees, point and shoot. The guy dies. If a defender manages to get inside my own turn circle and neutralize my ability to point and shoot, I'll say "engaged neutral, need some help" and my wingman, who is outside of both of our turn circles, will rotate, point, and shoot him.
> 
> Survivors of the BVR barrage will almost all die from short, sharp hooks, fire, then we will extend/accelerate, and then bug out, as exploding airplanes will attract enemy eyes.


 Thank you Chogy - Have you ever fired AIM120C5?I wish we could get D but they blocked for export i think.


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## Chogy

> Thank you Chogy - Have you ever fired AIM120C5?I wish we could get D but they blocked for export i think.



You're welcome, it's a difficult concept to describe. When weapons became both reliable, AND all-aspect, it changed the game forever.

I flew in the era of the AIM-7M, never fired an AIM-120. In fact, very few pilots ever fire more than 1 or 2 missiles in peace time. They are too expensive.

I fired an AIM-9L at a BQM Firebee drone. They put the drone into a 6 G turn, put you inside the turn circle, and clear you to fire. Since you are inside the circle, you need to do some BFM. For practice shots, they remove the warhead and replace it with a telemetry rig, and they then gather data on missile performance. This way, they give aircrews experience, and they also gather information on how the missiles perform.

Despite no warhead, they lose a lot of expensive drones because the missile spears the target. If the missile passes within about 10 meters (give or take) it is considered a hit, because the proximity fuse would detect the target and detonate the warhead. This blows pyrophoric debris and cuts through airframes like a knife through jello. Sets nasty fires.






If the drone survives, they deploy a parachute and attempt to recover the drone from the ocean:






If the drone is damaged and cannot be recovered, the range officers (flying nearby) are cleared in to kill the drone with a war-shot, a missile with a warhead. Or they are given clearance to gun it with HEI. This is more appropriate for full-sized drones like the QF-4. Of course, they love this job!

At the bottom of the ocean in the Gulf of Mexico and other places are possibly thousands of missiles and drones. I've often wondered if the SOviets attempted to dredge them up.

Having the live AIM-9L ($50,000 to $100,000) on my rail was like having a fine sports car hung there. I was almost tempted to say "Keep the missile, give me the $$, we'll all be happy."  Of course that wasn't going to happen.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

MastanKhan said:


> Notorious,
> 
> Goodman----. You see-----IAF has screwed itself up by placing its primary air bases so close to pakistani border that at time of take off to intercept incoming aircraft----the planes are already WVR-----.
> 
> If their primary bases were farther off----they could have stayed afloat for longer and taken long shots with impunity and at their discretion-----but they have given away their primary advantage of longer legs-----why would you have a SU30 sqdrn within 2 minutes of your border with pak----when you have this aircraft that can stay afloat for 4 plus hours------what a price we pay for our posturing and strut----.


 
Pathankot has 2 sqd there NO 3 SQD AND NO 26 SQD both have MIG-21 BIS.

The SU-30 are based in Ambala. 

we are keeping good eye on them,

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## Jango

Chogy said:


> You're welcome, it's a difficult concept to describe. When weapons became both reliable, AND all-aspect, it changed the game forever.
> 
> I flew in the era of the AIM-7M, never fired an AIM-120. In fact, very few pilots ever fire more than 1 or 2 missiles in peace time. They are too expensive.
> 
> I fired an AIM-9L at a BQM Firebee drone. They put the drone into a 6 G turn, put you inside the turn circle, and clear you to fire. Since you are inside the circle, you need to do some BFM. For practice shots, they remove the warhead and replace it with a telemetry rig, and they then gather data on missile performance. This way, they give aircrews experience, and they also gather information on how the missiles perform.
> 
> Despite no warhead, they lose a lot of expensive drones because the missile spears the target. If the missile passes within about 10 meters (give or take) it is considered a hit, because the proximity fuse would detect the target and detonate the warhead. This blows pyrophoric debris and cuts through airframes like a knife through jello. Sets nasty fires.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the drone survives, they deploy a parachute and attempt to recover the drone from the ocean:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the drone is damaged and cannot be recovered, the range officers (flying nearby) are cleared in to kill the drone with a war-shot, a missile with a warhead. Or they are given clearance to gun it with HEI. This is more appropriate for full-sized drones like the QF-4. Of course, they love this job!
> 
> At the bottom of the ocean in the Gulf of Mexico and other places are possibly thousands of missiles and drones. I've often wondered if the SOviets attempted to dredge them up.
> 
> Having the live AIM-9L ($50,000 to $100,000) on my rail was like having a fine sports car hung there. I was almost tempted to say "Keep the missile, give me the $$, we'll all be happy."  Of course that wasn't going to happen.


 
Real action stuff,


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## Patriot

Chogy said:


> You're welcome, it's a difficult concept to describe. When weapons became both reliable, AND all-aspect, it changed the game forever.
> 
> I flew in the era of the AIM-7M, never fired an AIM-120. In fact, very few pilots ever fire more than 1 or 2 missiles in peace time. They are too expensive.
> 
> I fired an AIM-9L at a BQM Firebee drone. They put the drone into a 6 G turn, put you inside the turn circle, and clear you to fire. Since you are inside the circle, you need to do some BFM. For practice shots, they remove the warhead and replace it with a telemetry rig, and they then gather data on missile performance. This way, they give aircrews experience, and they also gather information on how the missiles perform.
> 
> Despite no warhead, they lose a lot of expensive drones because the missile spears the target. If the missile passes within about 10 meters (give or take) it is considered a hit, because the proximity fuse would detect the target and detonate the warhead. This blows pyrophoric debris and cuts through airframes like a knife through jello. Sets nasty fires.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the drone survives, they deploy a parachute and attempt to recover the drone from the ocean:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the drone is damaged and cannot be recovered, the range officers (flying nearby) are cleared in to kill the drone with a war-shot, a missile with a warhead. Or they are given clearance to gun it with HEI. This is more appropriate for full-sized drones like the QF-4. Of course, they love this job!
> 
> At the bottom of the ocean in the Gulf of Mexico and other places are possibly thousands of missiles and drones. I've often wondered if the SOviets attempted to dredge them up.
> 
> Having the live AIM-9L ($50,000 to $100,000) on my rail was like having a fine sports car hung there. I was almost tempted to say "Keep the missile, give me the $$, we'll all be happy."  Of course that wasn't going to happen.


 Thank you so much for the explanation.I must say you had a excellent job.I wish i had that kind of job.Fighter Pilots are indeed very lucky people.


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## Jango

Chogy said:


> There are really THREE combat regimes, and one must understand that having actual sight of the opponent isn't the critical part.
> 
> Let's start at 0 meters to about 3000 meters. Picture a sphere around a jet. Anything in that sphere is inside the turning circle of the jet, and this is where classical BFM maneuvers take place... hard break turns, jinks, yo-yos, all the fun stuff. If I'm intruding inside a guy's turn circle, I must respond correctly, or his own maneuvering can threaten me.
> 
> From 3000 meters to maybe 8 nautical miles in the second regime. We can generally (but not always) see each other, but we are outside of each others' turn circles. What this means - picture my F-15 pointing at an F-16 8 miles ahead of me. The F-16 immediately goes into a wild 9G turn. All it looks like to me is a guy turning a tight circle. He stays in front of me. In fact, he stays within the HUD FOV. Easy kill using AIM-9 or a radar missile.
> 
> Outside of 8 to 10 nm, we exceed the range of most IR missiles, and the tools of choice are AMRAAM and others.
> 
> This is hard to describe, but what it boils down to is that most of the killing at a merge will take place in the middle regime. All you need to do is rotate your nose through 60, 90, 120 degrees, point and shoot. The guy dies. If a defender manages to get inside my own turn circle and neutralize my ability to point and shoot, I'll say "engaged neutral, need some help" and my wingman, who is outside of both of our turn circles, will rotate, point, and shoot him.
> 
> Survivors of the BVR barrage will almost all die from short, sharp hooks, fire, then we will extend/accelerate, and then bug out, as exploding airplanes will attract enemy eyes.


 
You mean, that the farther you are , the smaller the circle gets, and hence, the circle stays in your HUD for a long time giving more time for the shot. Just as in simulation games!!


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## MastanKhan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Pathankot has 2 sqd there NO 3 SQD AND NO 26 SQD both have MIG-21 BIS.
> 
> The SU-30 are based in Ambala.
> 
> we are keeping good eye on them,



Abou,

If I remember correctly, there is a sqdrn of SU 30 posted in srinagar as well.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

sometime back i did read something about a small handful (not even a squadron) of them based at Srinagar.....if true, i have no problem with it

the closer the better


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## Jango

MastanKhan said:


> Abou,
> 
> If I remember correctly, there is a sqdrn of SU 30 posted in srinagar as well.


 
Sukhois at Srinagar???,,,,seems a bit awkward>


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## danger007

babji said:


> F-16 will win . and stick on topic


 
don't be stupid. su-30mki is an air dominance fighter. dont compare an heavy class fighter with F-16's.


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## Battle Axe

danger007 said:


> don't be stupid. su-30mki is an air dominance fighter. dont compare an heavy class fighter with F-16's.


 

As for as the logic to compare is concerned. The Su 30 MKIs may very well have to face F 16s when the former are raiding & so, one of the two will have to bite dust, irrespective of their weight ceilings.

And if the adversary is Block 52+, the Flanker-H only ejects. 

Sorry if I trolled, but I was only being fair.


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## danger007

Battle Axe said:


> As for as the logic to compare is concerned. The Su 30 MKIs may very well have to face F 16s when the former are raiding & so, one of the two will have to bite dust, irrespective of their weight ceilings.
> 
> And if the adversary is Block 52+, the Flanker-H only ejects.
> 
> Sorry if I trolled, but I was only being fair.


 
do you know what the difference between heavy class fighter ans medium .


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## truthseeker2010

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Pathankot has 2 sqd there NO 3 SQD AND NO 26 SQD both have MIG-21 BIS.
> 
> The SU-30 are based in Ambala.
> 
> we are keeping good eye on them,


 
Su-30's are based in Ambala, pune, bareily and tezpur. We are keeping a sharp eye on them Sir.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

WRT to a WVR engagement, and of course with a skilled pilot (the most important aspect of all) -- the F-16 will shoot down the flanker. Hands down.

too many variables though, so it's hard to blindly speculate

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## praful

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> WRT to a WVR engagement, and of course with a skilled pilot (the most important aspect of all) -- the F-16 will shoot down the flanker. Hands down.
> 
> too many variables though, so it's hard to blindly speculate


 
 and some people says Indians do trolling


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## danger007

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> WRT to a WVR engagement, and of course with a skilled pilot (the most important aspect of all) -- the F-16 will shoot down the flanker. Hands down.
> 
> too many variables though, so it's hard to blindly speculate


 
i said thanks for ur time machine you took us back to 1960 for WVR engagements and skilled pilot. most important aspect of all mean?????

now i get why babji said F16 will win.


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## Jango

And, TROLL FEST , better leave them alone sir, and not ruin this whole F-16, 260 page, well constructed thread in an instant.


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## danger007

nuclearpak said:


> And, TROLL FEST , better leave them alone sir, and not ruin this whole F-16, 260 page, well constructed thread in an instant.


 
that troll fest started by pakistani itself.


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## Battle Axe

danger007 said:


> do you know what the difference between heavy class fighter ans medium .


 

The difference is not really applicable here. All I said, mate, was that in an upcoming war, they will have to face each & hence the comparison is just. MKI is India's best plane and F 16 ours & therefore, comparison may too be justified, again because of the probability that they will meet in skies.

Nonetheless, I agree that it were to be a totally academic POV, then they come from different leagues all together.


----------



## danger007

Battle Axe said:


> The difference is not really applicable here. All I said, mate, was that in an upcoming war, they will have to face each & hence the comparison is just. MKI is India's best plane and F 16 ours & therefore, comparison may too be justified, again because of the probability that they will meet in skies.
> 
> Nonetheless, I agree that it were to be a totally academic POV, then they come from different leagues all together.



upcoming war, don't wish for that. if we are frequently at war in future too, both India and Pakistan will never develop. No one will send single jet to fight. mig 29,mirage 2000 also there. 1st fire option will be with SU-30mki. 

if u want to start another debate open separate thread instead of spoiling this one.


----------



## danger007

double post...................


----------



## Jango

danger007 said:


> that troll fest started by pakistani itself.


 
But nobody replied to him, because there were sensible people posting at the time, but now your Indian friend has come and started it with the other members.


----------



## Battle Axe

danger007 said:


> upcoming war, don't wish for that. if we are frequently at war in future too, both India and Pakistan will never develop. No one will send single jet to fight. mig 29,mirage 2000 also there. 1st fire option will be with SU-30mki.
> 
> if u want to start another debate open separate thread instead of spoiling this one.


 

No one's wishing for war. I was creating a scenario to put myself in context and I explained myself. I wish to say no more.

Good Day!


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

praful said:


> and some people says Indians do trolling


 
I'm sorry you interpreted it that way, kiddo


----------



## danger007

nuclearpak said:


> But nobody replied to him, because there were sensible people posting at the time, but now your Indian friend has come and started it with the other members.


 
thats y i didnt said, su 30mki wil win,no need to argue. go ahead.


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

danger007 said:


> i said thanks for ur time machine you took us back to 1960 for WVR engagements and skilled pilot. most important aspect of all mean?????
> 
> now i get why babji said F16 will win.


 
well if it takes off from not far from our border, will it head eastwards or will it play a purely offensive mission?

the second those flankers cross Pakistan, they become cannon fodder


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## Battle Axe

So back to F 16s. There is still no news about wheeling dealing with Norwegian Air Force for their F 16 AM/BMs and as per information with me, they are not going to retire them till 2015-16. And that means a good 5 years, something one cannot really hinge on...

There is also news of the option of a further 18 Block 52 F 16s being taken up but I have not seen any official confirmation, though. The other 14 F 16 AM/BM continue to be operated by US Navy with again no headway.

I am really looking forward to PAF closing in on its ambition to acquire around 100 Vipers...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

while its good to think long-term rather than short-term; lets be pragmatic and see how things ''play out''

and lets wait for MLU program to be fully materialized. That in itself will allow for PAF to be one step closer to realizing the Modernization Program of 2015.


----------



## araz

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> while its good to think long-term rather than short-term; lets be pragmatic and see how things ''play out''
> 
> and lets wait for MLU program to be fully materialized. That in itself will allow for PAF to be one step closer to realizing the Modernization Program of 2015.


 
I want to throw a spanner in the works and ask a silly question. We know that there are allegedly bugs hidden in the new Bl52s . Presumably they are within the computer systems which run the plane. Now we are changng the Radar, and the avionics suite. How do we know the same bugs will not be encountered in the new MLued planes?
Any ideas?
Araz


----------



## Abu Zolfiqar

araz said:


> I want to throw a spanner in the works and ask a silly question. We know that there are allegedly bugs hidden in the new Bl52s . Presumably they are within the computer systems which run the plane. Now we are changng the Radar, and the avionics suite. How do we know the same bugs will not be encountered in the new MLued planes?
> Any ideas?
> Araz


 
me personally, I have no idea at all.

Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) is licensed by Americans to manufacture the Lockheed Martin F-16s; or perform MLU's. These cannot be done without the permission of the OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) in this case LM (and allowed by US government). So whatever the Turkish engineers and technicians put in (in the presence of even Pakistani engineers at Turkish and Pakistani facilities) neither of them will know where any possible ''bug'' or ''switch'' is....

I think to some extent, people exaggerate this whole ''kill-switch'' thing ---though I'm quite sure that they (their movements) can be monitored.

the capabilities of these upgraged Falcons will put them nearly to Block 50 specification. Lets just see how the program goes, hopefully a smoothe process Inshallah.


----------



## Jango

I asked my father this question. According to him, it is utter BS. That the US will press a button and the plane will be rendered inoperable.!!!,,he said , sure there could be tracking devices in SOME planes, and some other tracker, but the performance of the planes will not be compromised in anyway. Who will watch those trackers 24/7 ???,,,,the blackbox of an airplane is not opened for its entirety, except after a crash, so who nows there could be something in there??,,,


----------



## VCheng

araz said:


> I want to throw a spanner in the works and ask a silly question. We know that there are allegedly bugs hidden in the new Bl52s . Presumably they are within the computer systems which run the plane. Now we are changng the Radar, and the avionics suite. How do we know the same bugs will not be encountered in the new MLued planes?
> Any ideas?
> Araz



The entire software suite on these F-16s has multiple modes of operation, some of which are absolutely transparent to the end-user, including the pilots, and offers distinct advantages to the US, to be utilized if warranted.

Whether one believes this or not, I will respect your right to disagree, but I do have my reasons for stating this, and I stand by my words.

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## Jango

VCheng said:


> The entire software suite on these F-16s has multiple modes of operation, some of which are absolutely transparent to the end-user, including the pilots, and offers distinct advantages to the US, to be utilized if warranted.
> 
> Whether one believes this or not, I will respect your right to disagree, but I do have my reasons for stating this, and I stand by my words.


 
What kind of advantages?


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## VCheng

nuclearpak said:


> What kind of advantages?



There are limits to what can be discussed in an open forum. I do not wish to provide any compromising information.


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## Jango

VCheng said:


> There are limits to what can be discussed in an open forum. I do not wish to provide any compromising information.


 
I understand sir. No problem.

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## fatman17

posted on another blog...

"Air chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleman has officially announced that PAF has Requested for purchase of another batch of 18 Block 52+ F-16s. 

PAF sources confirmed that a reply in this regard is expected a few weeks time, and U.S approval is almost certain citing that this option of another buy was open to the PAF as and when desired.If all goes to plan, we are expected to receive these jets by the end of next year hopefully.(?) 

Apart from this PAF is also seriously considering buying two squadrons of Norway F-16AM/BMs, in is plan of operating a fleet of 100 F-16s combined for next 15-20years."

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## Pfpilot

But I dont understand the logic here. We are not replacing the p-3c orions the navy lost due to the deteriorating relationship with the US, yet we are still willing to put our trust and money into a distinctly American product that has proven almost useless the last time we were sanctioned. Those Orions were of far greater importance, relative to the strength of the navy, and the fact that we are unwilling to ask for those shows that things are not going well, then where do these f-16s come from? How capable are we of sustaining our force in case of sanctions?

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## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> posted on another blog...
> 
> "Air chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleman has officially announced that PAF has Requested for purchase of another batch of 18 Block 52+ F-16s.
> 
> PAF sources confirmed that a reply in this regard is expected a few weeks time, and U.S approval is almost certain citing that this option of another buy was open to the PAF as and when desired.If all goes to plan, we are expected to receive these jets by the end of next year hopefully.(?)
> 
> Apart from this PAF is also seriously considering buying two squadrons of Norway F-16AM/BMs, in is plan of operating a fleet of 100 F-16s combined for next 15-20years."


 
*Those are gonna be F-16Cs and will be equipped with CFTs as per order.*


----------



## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> posted on another blog...
> 
> "Air chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleman has officially announced that PAF has Requested for purchase of another batch of 18 Block 52+ F-16s.
> 
> PAF sources confirmed that a reply in this regard is expected a few weeks time, and U.S approval is almost certain citing that this option of another buy was open to the PAF as and when desired.If all goes to plan, we are expected to receive these jets by the end of next year hopefully.(?)
> 
> Apart from this PAF is also seriously considering buying two squadrons of Norway F-16AM/BMs, in is plan of operating a fleet of 100 F-16s combined for next 15-20years."


 
No Norwegian has come to verify this, many of them on forums related to the f-16 vehemently deny any possibility of such a sale.


----------



## Mani2020

fatman17 said:


> posted on another blog...
> 
> "Air chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleman has officially announced that PAF has Requested for purchase of another batch of 18 Block 52+ F-16s.
> 
> PAF sources confirmed that a reply in this regard is expected a few weeks time, and U.S approval is almost certain citing that this option of another buy was open to the PAF as and when desired.If all goes to plan, we are expected to receive these jets by the end of next year hopefully.(?)
> 
> Apart from this PAF is also seriously considering buying two squadrons of Norway F-16AM/BMs, in is plan of operating a fleet of 100 F-16s combined for next 15-20years."


 
Any trustworthy source for this? I mean it was posted on blog it can very well just be a rumor. And Where ACM officialy announced it? there is no such news in media


----------



## Last Hope

Mani2020 said:


> Any trustworthy source for this? I mean it was posted on blog it can very well just be a rumor. And Where ACM officialy announced it? there is no such news in media


You can take me as a source.
I have inside men to tell it to me, and yes, it is true.


----------



## soul hacker



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## TOPGUN

I had already said this before many times that PAF will go for the 18 option for blk 52 & here it is i had also stated that PAF will try to get used mlu vipers .Paf has always wanted to maintian a force of 100 + vipers lets see what the US says.


----------



## MastanKhan

nuclearpak said:


> Sukhois at Srinagar???,,,,seems a bit awkward>


 
Hi,

That was about 3--4 years ago i believe-----and we discussed this deployment quite a bit on this forum here. A flight of strike planes can take off from kamra and be over that base even before the engine in the su30 spools up to have enough power to start taxiing towards the runway to take off----.


----------



## rockstarIN

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That was about 3--4 years ago i believe-----and we discussed this deployment quite a bit on this forum here. A flight of strike planes can take off from kamra and be over that base even before the engine in the su30 spools up to have enough power to start taxiing towards the runway to take off----.


 
Khan sahab, too much wishful thinking..

Can't understand why there is always underestimation about IAF thinking..

But so far assessment of capability is concerned, I would like IAF to consider Pak A-Darter is equal to Derby, SD-10 as R-77 and JFT as a mini F-16. Under estimation is always dangerous......

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## Jango

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That was about 3--4 years ago i believe-----and we discussed this deployment quite a bit on this forum here. A flight of strike planes can take off from kamra and be over that base even before the engine in the su30 spools up to have enough power to start taxiing towards the runway to take off----.


 
But isnt srinagar considered disputed?,,,,,what is the current status of the air base?


----------



## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> But isnt srinagar considered disputed?,,,,,what is the current status of the air base?



its in IOK!!!


----------



## fatman17

Mani2020 said:


> Any trustworthy source for this? I mean it was posted on blog it can very well just be a rumor. And Where ACM officialy announced it? there is no such news in media



well there is always ACM Rao Qamar!


----------



## Battle Axe

fatman17 said:


> Apart from this PAF is also seriously considering buying two squadrons of Norway F-16AM/BMs, in is plan of operating a fleet of 100 F-16s combined for next 15-20years."


 

Sir, I do hope this happens but RNAF sources plan to retire the vipers in 2015-16, which is a worrying 5 years away. Further, some natives even dispute the whole thing...

Though, am looking forward to the next squadron of F 16Cs with CFT by end of 2012. And again, no news of 14 AM/BMs with USN...


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## epinephrine

i read these news on an other forum at f-16.net n the people there say that norway has no plans of selling its f-16


----------



## MastanKhan

rockstar said:


> Khan sahab, too much wishful thinking..
> 
> Can't understand why there is always underestimation about IAF thinking..
> 
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
> Thank you very much for your comment-----thanks for conveniently forgetting my other posts regarding the IAF aircraft---. I comment without prejudice ( maybe some ) most of the time---if I can trash out the paf and bring out all the screw ups, that my other pakistani colleagues want to hide under the rug---then I think I can be equally fair with iaf----deploying the su 30 within two minutes of flying time from the border is an absolute screw up---.
> 
> Having air bases within 100 miles from the border---I don't get it----they will be the first ones to go---regardless whatever you have to protect them-----. You have so much space at hand----your aircraft have longer legs----your air refuellers can fly around without any threat---your aircraft can fly around for hours --- I don't want to say amymore at this time-----.

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## [--Leo--]

What is current price of
F-16A/B=
F-16C/D=
F-16E/F=


----------



## untitled

MastanKhan said:


> Having air bases within 100 miles from the border---I don't get it----they will be the first ones to go---regardless whatever you have to protect them-----. You have so much space at hand----your aircraft have longer legs----your air refuellers can fly around without any threat---your aircraft can fly around for hours --- I don't want to say amymore at this time-----.



Does not redundancy help ?

Don't foraward air bases help ?


----------



## araz

MastanKhan said:


> rockstar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Khan sahab, too much wishful thinking..
> 
> Can't understand why there is always underestimation about IAF thinking..
> 
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
> Thank you very much for your comment-----thanks for conveniently forgetting my other posts regarding the IAF aircraft---. I comment without prejudice ( maybe some ) most of the time---if I can trash out the paf and bring out all the screw ups, that my other pakistani colleagues want to hide under the rug---then I think I can be equally fair with iaf----deploying the su 30 within two minutes of flying time from the border is an absolute screw up---.
> 
> Having air bases within 100 miles from the border---I don't get it----they will be the first ones to go---regardless whatever you have to protect them-----. You have so much space at hand----your aircraft have longer legs----your air refuellers can fly around without any threat---your aircraft can fly around for hours --- I don't want to say amymore at this time-----.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mastan
> brother these bases are old and well established. If you can look at the IAF inventory till the 90s they hardlyhad anything with long enough legs. SO there was sense in having bases close to the border. NOw that they have MKIs they base them out of harms way and assume that te MKIs will fly in to do the business. The other thing to think of in the Indo PAk scenario is that with progressively increasing range and accuracy of missiles and CMs , will any of the bases be safe?
> Araz
Click to expand...

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## SQ8

Which basically translates into Indian aircraft being technically safe from attack.. 
MK's Idea is not wrong either.. the vulnerability of these bases suggests that it is time to either shut them down.. or turn them into FOB's.
And find more land further east from the border to convert to MOB's.
They can still use these bases for recovery and staging ops.


----------



## rockstarIN

MastanKhan said:


> rockstar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Khan sahab, too much wishful thinking..
> 
> Can't understand why there is always underestimation about IAF thinking..
> 
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
> Thank you very much for your comment-----thanks for conveniently forgetting my other posts regarding the IAF aircraft---. I comment without prejudice ( maybe some ) most of the time---if I can trash out the paf and bring out all the screw ups, that my other pakistani colleagues want to hide under the rug---then I think I can be equally fair with iaf----deploying the su 30 within two minutes of flying time from the border is an absolute screw up---.
> 
> Having air bases within 100 miles from the border---I don't get it----they will be the first ones to go---regardless whatever you have to protect them-----. You have so much space at hand----your aircraft have longer legs----your air refuellers can fly around without any threat---your aircraft can fly around for hours --- I don't want to say amymore at this time-----.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
> I saw lots of your posts where you upset your countrymen. I posted as a reply to your one post.
> 
> Reference to the proximity to the bases and Su30 deployment, we have 2 out of 3 main bases are deep inside the border.
> 
> With help of latest detection technologies, both forces will know immediately when the enemy jets comes even nearby the border.
> 
> |Regards,
Click to expand...


----------



## Last Hope

[--Leo--];2014925 said:


> What is current price of
> F-16A/B=
> F-16C/D=
> F-16E/F=


 
Sorry I didn't buy one yet.


----------



## epinephrine

rockstar said:


> MastanKhan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
> I saw lots of your posts where you upset your countrymen. I posted as a reply to your one post.
> 
> Reference to the proximity to the bases and Su30 deployment, we have 2 out of 3 main bases are deep inside the border.
> 
> With help of latest detection technologies, both forces will know immediately when the enemy jets comes even nearby the border.
> 
> |Regards,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wats the need of sending aircrafts across the border in the start of war.let the missiles do their job in the intial phase
Click to expand...


----------



## MastanKhan

varigeo said:


> Does not redundancy help ?
> 
> Don't foraward air bases help ?


 
Hi,

It would help---if you have a country 500----1000 miles + in depth----so they need forward air bases---like we do----otoh---when we are operationally only 5 to a 100 miles away---for what reason would the bases be so close to our border.

It is simply a threatening posture---and we welcome it very much----it just puts 1/3 to 1/4 of their strike force within easy strike range.

Araz,

I was talking about the two sqdrns of SU 30's that were deployed in srinagar some 3 years ago------.

Now---if for some reason, india decides to pull back its main strike formations farther back---it would not look good---it will play havoc with the psyche of the public and millitary----. It would tantamount to admitting the mistakes foremost and secondarily admitting that the opponent to has sharp teeth----.

The situation is like swallowing your pride and praying for the best.


----------



## Abingdonboy

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It would help---if you have a country 500----1000 miles + in depth----so they need forward air bases---like we do----otoh---when we are operationally only 5 to a 100 miles away---for what reason would the bases be so close to our border.
> 
> It is simply a threatening posture---and we welcome it very much----it just puts 1/3 to 1/4 of their strike force within easy strike range.
> 
> Araza,
> 
> I was talking about the two sqdrns of SU 30's that were deployed in srinagar some 3 years ago------.
> 
> Now---if for some reason, india decides to pull back its main strike formations farther back---it would not look good---it will play havoc with the psyche of the public and millitary----. It would tantamount to admitting the mistakes foremost and secondarily admitting that the opponent to has sharp teeth----.
> 
> The situation is like swallowing your pride and praying for the best.


 
I agree with you- the deployment of the IAF MKIs in forward bases is more a political and provocative move than an actual tactical one however the IAF is aware of the risks of such foreword bases- this is why they initially let these bases go to waste until the recent revival process and it is why the IAF has stated the majority of their MKI fore will stay deep inside Indian territory. However I think the GoI/MoD/IAF felt that with constant reports of intruding PLAF jets and PLA patrols into Indian territory they needed to show a response and on a practical level in peace time the MKIs deployed to foreword bases can offer a very quick response to intruding PLAF jets that a MKI deployed further deeper in India can't provide. However given this job could be done by even Bisons or M2Ks it is clearly a projection issue- the latest and most capable plane in IAF's inventory deployed near their border should give them something to think about.


----------



## epinephrine

MKI is a long range air craft so it doesn't seem sensible of keeping them in sri nagar so close to the border.there will be little reaction time b/w the detection of PAF jets and in launching the MKI.the terrain tin that area is hilly and it will be even more difficult for the radars to pick up low flying enemy air crafts.


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## Patriot

Bisons or M2Ks would be slaughtered if they ever tried to plan a strike mission INSIDE Pakistan.


----------



## rockstarIN

epinephrine said:


> MKI is a long range air craft so it doesn't seem sensible of keeping them in sri nagar so close to the border.there will be little reaction time b/w the detection of PAF jets and in launching the MKI.the terrain tin that area is hilly and it will be even more difficult for the radars to pick up low flying enemy air crafts.


 
|There would be no big 'surprises' in air combat over South Asia provided the aerostat radars, AWACS apart from land based systems and the lack of 5th gen fighters.


----------



## TOPGUN

Can someone kindly list all the weapon load air to air air to ground anti ship , bombs etc we have for our vipers in our inventory does anyone know ? thanks.


----------



## Manticore

this is the f16 blk 52 capability -- probably the weapons range with the polish and hellnic airforce


i had posted a partial paf f16 inventory about 6 months back in this thread -- however it should consist of

aim120 c5
aim9 p/m
AIM-9B: F-86, F-6. AIM-9P/L: F-16A/B, F-6, F-7P/PG, Mirage III/V, JF-17. AIM-9M on order for F-16C/D


GBU-31: Mk84 bomb fitted with JDAM
GBU-10 Paveway II
GBU-12 Paveway II
GBU-24
MK-82/84
BLU-109 2,000 pound with FMU-143 Fuze
AN/ALQ-131 & AN/ALQ-184 ECM pods 
LANTIRN, Sniper pods
AGM-65
AGM-84


might not be completley correct , took a minute to brain storm 'em

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## TOPGUN

ANTIBODY said:


>


 
Thx brother but i meant does anyone know the wepons the PAF has for its vipers ?


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## PersianPride

Wow Amazing


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## Silk

There is a point that some forget if they see all the weapons. Not all weapons are used or released. If you know that Egyptian F16 have never received BVR (and many other goodies) then you might see the reality of the picture.


----------



## Mani2020

TOPGUN said:


> Thx brother but i meant does anyone know the wepons the PAF has for its vipers ?


 
Aim-120C

Aim-9M

Aim-7

AGM-84 Harpoon

AGM-65 Maverick

BLU-109

Mk-82

JDAM with GBU 31/38

Some also say that we have a AGM-88 Harm but its not confirmed

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## Windjammer

*
A Viper Driver supporting JHMCS Plays With The Camera*

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## Patriot

Mani2020 said:


> Aim-120C
> 
> Aim-9M
> 
> Aim-7
> 
> AGM-84 Harpoon
> 
> AGM-65 Maverick
> 
> BLU-109
> 
> Mk-82
> 
> JDAM with GBU 31/38
> 
> Some also say that we have a AGM-88 Harm but its not confirmed


Pakistan did not receive sparrows.


----------



## Manticore

ANTIBODY said:


> i had posted a partial paf f16 inventory about 6 months back in this thread -- however it should consist of
> 
> aim120 c5
> aim9 p/m
> AIM-9B: F-86, F-6. AIM-9P/L: F-16A/B, F-6, F-7P/PG, Mirage III/V, JF-17. AIM-9M on order for F-16C/D
> 
> 
> GBU-31: Mk84 bomb fitted with JDAM
> GBU-10 Paveway II
> GBU-12 Paveway II
> GBU-24
> MK-82/84
> BLU-109 2,000 pound with FMU-143 Fuze
> AN/ALQ-131 & AN/ALQ-184 ECM pods
> LANTIRN, Sniper pods
> AGM-65
> AGM-84
> 
> 
> might not be completley correct , took a minute to brain storm 'em









http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/air-force-equipment.htm


*

PAF probally bought 200 AIM-7Fs *

any more things to add?


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## Mani2020

Patriot said:


> Pakistan did not receive sparrows.


 


Users of Aim-7 
United States, Canada, South Korea, Turkey, Japan, Iran,Israel, Italy, United Kingdom, Saudi Arabia, *Pakistan*, Poland, Thailand


According to global security organization there is a confirmation that we had Aim-7 till 2002 in our inventory,some sources believe that PAF had ~500 Aim-7 sparrows in their inventory,but after 2002 no-one knows the status of these missiles whether they are retired or not but surely are replaced by Aim-120 now


In a book named "*THE PHYSICIE OF PAKISTAN AIR FORCE* " written by indian authors named Ravi Rakhye and Pushpinder Singh (forgive me for the spellings of authorsname,if they are wrong) it is stated that PAF acquired 500 Aim-7F sparrow missiles in 1989


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## Windjammer

Operational Status Initial development of the AIM-7A Sparrow started in 1946, and the first versions entered service in 1956. AIM-7E entered service in 1962 and was widely used as a standard for other variants such as Sky Flash (UK), Aspide (Italy). AIM-7F entered service in 1975. The AIM-7M entered service in 1982 and production continued until 1990. AIM-9P entered service in 1992, and is in production. AIM-9R, with a dual-mode seeker, entered development in 1988 and is expected to enter service in 1997. Earlier AIM-7E versions saw active service in Vietnam and Sparrow missiles have been used in the Middle East over many years, with 25 Iraqi aircraft being shot down by the USAF and USN using AIM-7 Sparrow missiles in the 1991 Gulf War. Exports have been made to many countries including Australia, Bahrain, Canada, Egypt, Greece, Iran, Israel, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Kuwait, Portugal, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Spain, Taiwan, Turkey and the UK. AIM-7E/F/M have been built under licence in Japan. With the USAF's decision to clear F-16A/B and F-16C/D aircraft to carry the beyond-visual-range AIM-7 Sparrow missiles, *several countries are seeking US approval to fit Sparrow to modified F-16s, including Bahrain, Egypt, Indonesia, Pakistan, Singapore and Venezuela.*


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## Last Hope

Can someone tellme the exact number of F-16s currently?

According to my calculations,* 106 F-16s *should be in the bank with *24 *of them as Block 50/52.
Just to confirm.


----------



## Patriot

Mani2020 said:


> Users of Aim-7
> United States, Canada, South Korea, Turkey, Japan, Iran,Israel, Italy, United Kingdom, Saudi Arabia, *Pakistan*, Poland, Thailand
> 
> 
> According to global security organization there is a confirmation that we had Aim-7 till 2002 in our inventory,some sources believe that PAF had ~500 Aim-7 sparrows in their inventory,but after 2002 no-one knows the status of these missiles whether they are retired or not but surely are replaced by Aim-120 now
> 
> 
> In a book named "*THE PHYSICIE OF PAKISTAN AIR FORCE* " written by indian authors named Ravi Rakhye and Pushpinder Singh (forgive me for the spellings of authorsname,if they are wrong) it is stated that PAF acquired 500 Aim-7F sparrow missiles in 1989


 
We never got them - Don't trust the Indian Sources - PAF F16s were fitted with non BVR Missiles (AIM9) until we got the AIM120.


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## Last Hope

[/IMG]


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## Aamir Hussain

Mani2020 said:


> Aim-120C
> 
> Aim-9M
> 
> Aim-7
> 
> AGM-84 Harpoon
> 
> AGM-65 Maverick
> 
> BLU-109
> 
> Mk-82
> 
> JDAM with GBU 31/38
> 
> Some also say that we have a AGM-88 Harm but its not confirmed


 
And some say the older Shrike as well.


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## serialkiller

pakistan should not buy more f-16s


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## fatman17

*L-3 Link awarded contract to provide F-16 ATDs to PAF* 


August 12, 2011 (by Rick Oyler) - L-3 Link Simulation & Training (L-3 Link) announced on 8th August that it has been awarded a contract to build and deliver two F-16C block 52 Aircrew Training Devices (ATDs) to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). 


Both simulators, scheduled for delivery in 2013, will be installed and networked at the PAF's Shahbaz Air Base.

"These F-16C block 52 Aircrew Training Devices will be built on proven and cost-effective common hardware and software designs that will enable L-3 Link to deliver a solution tailored to meet Pakistan Air Force training requirements," said Leonard Genna, president of L-3 Link. "These high-fidelity devices will enable a significant percentage of F-16 pilot training to be conducted through the use of simulation."

The PAF's F-16C Block 52 ATDs will support new pilot, pilot conversion and advanced skills training. Pilots will be able to practice takeoffs and landings, low-level flight and emergency procedures. In support of more advanced skills training, F-16 pilots will be able to acquire and identify targets while accurately delivering a wide range of ordnance during simulated air-to-air and air-to-ground missions.

Each F-16C Block 52 ATD will be integrated with L-3 Link's SimuSphere® HD 18-facet visual system display, which will provide pilots with a 360-degree field-of-view. The simulators also will feature high-definition databases and image generation systems to create highly realistic and relevant training environments. Both F-16 ATDs will incorporate L-3 Link's simulated Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System, enabling pilots to practice control of aircraft targeting systems and sensors. Day and night vision goggle training will be conducted over a geo-specific visual system database of Pakistan.

The two F-16C Block 52 ATDs will be supported by one mission support system. Each simulator will also have a dedicated instructor/operator station.

L-3 Link is the leading provider of F-16 simulators worldwide. Since the 1970s, the company has delivered approximately 140 F-16 training devices in support of the U.S. Air Force, Air National Guard and 10 foreign nations.

Courtesy of L-3 Link Simulation & Training

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## Chogy

Modern simulators are just amazing. They are very, very close to perfect, and especially when dealing with expensive jet aircraft, one can practice without the enormous expense of flying the real thing.

Very few people know that simulators are so good, airline pilots can be 100% certified to fly a Boeing 777, for example, without ever leaving the ground. His very first flight can be a revenue flight from NY to Tokyo. The days of flying around in empty jets for training purposes are long gone.

Military fighter sims are perfect for simulating night operations, BVR, and intercepts. And of course, all of them are needed to practice emergencies and malfunctions.


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## Imran Khan

L-3 Link Simulation & Training

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## untitled

self delete ......


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## DANGER-ZONE

*Pakistan Air Force F-16B Fighting Falcon at Lajes / Azores Portugal, June 24, 2008*





*Pakistan Air Force F-16B Fighting Falcon (401) at Izmir - Cigli Turkey, June 4, 2011*

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## unicorn

muse said:


> PAF has not as yet decided to go for the additional 18 -You don't even know the delivery date, but it's the right choice? You don't even know how they may be configured but it's the right choice?


 
PAF has long been considering the option of additional F-16, but I think they may have not gone forward because of the political conditions or waiting for the right moment.You must also bear in mind that we have currently given multiple contracts associated with our new and old F-16's.
The news of additional F-16 was published in aviation weak way back in march. 



> Pakistan is in negotiations with the U.S. to get more Lockheed Martin F-16s beyond those it has on order, while at the same time it is developing its defense manufacturing capability to reduce its reliance on the U.S.



Pakistan In Negotiations For More F-16s | AVIATION WEEK

As far as why I think it is a good move is because I am considering only the operational preparedness of what PAF currently have in it's inventory.The BVR of JF-17 may be operational but what is the operational preparedness of it with JF-17 have big question mark on it.Besides as far as I know we don't even know of yet whether the weapons integration of JF-17 has been completed or not.For example we have conducted multiple test of RA'ad but not with JF-17.Also as the things are currently suggesting it seems PAF will put it's new batch of J10 on the western front and not on the eastern one.J10 a new unproven platform which will take time to come, time to induct and time to fully understand.The point is inspite of these wise efforts the western front remain vulnerable in the near future as far as I am concerned.So those who are in favour of not procuring the additional F-16 in favour of J-10 to me they are Jazbati because they are not taking in account that we have experience of two decade with these machines unlike J-10. 

Furthermore Americans have recently hold even the salaries of their soldiers in Afghanistan what makes you think they will throw aid to Pakistan.Their regular bahana of blaming Pakistan so that they can stop our aid, This move of theirs not entirely depends on their demands.Running out of money also has an important part in it.I suggest we should take the advantage of this situation and use the military aid of Kerelugar bill to get the additional F-16. It is again responsibility of Haqqani to do the work in Washington and make them understand that in current circumstances how important it is for US to sell even a pin to other countries. 
t


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## DANGER-ZONE

*super Hot Image from Izmir *

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## Windjammer

_General Ehsan-ul-Haq (left) becomes the first General of the Pakistan Army to fly in an F-16. This event took place during exercise Hi-Mark in 2005. Seen in the pic presenting Gen.Ehsan an F-16 model is Air Cdre Farhat Hussain Khan, who was Base Commander of one of the airbases participating in the exercise at the time._

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## araz

Santro said:


> Which basically translates into Indian aircraft being technically safe from attack..
> MK's Idea is not wrong either.. the vulnerability of these bases suggests that it is time to either shut them down.. or turn them into FOB's.
> And find more land further east from the border to convert to MOB's.
> They can still use these bases for recovery and staging ops.


Santro 
In the Indo Pak scenario with CMs with 700 KMs , and BM with CEPs of 10 m and ranges upto 1500 KMs, it is a mute point as to what is safe from enemy hands in case of a war.
Araz


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## epinephrine

both india n pakistan have "stones" n they r living in "glass houses".
those living in glass houses should not throw stones at each other so its better for both countries to avoid any misadventure

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## air marshal

*August 20, 1982:* PAF accepts first F-16 from Peace Gate I order.

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## razgriz19



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## CallsignAlzaeem

epinephrine said:


> both india n pakistan have "stones" n they r living in "glass houses".
> those living in glass houses should not throw stones at each other so its better for both countries to avoid any misadventure



Good to see people like you,We need to understand this that sub-continent is not able enough to witness a war between two nuclear powers,war must be the last resort.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Simulators are great for new cadets trying to understand basic , but real flying is still important you can't teach the forces you feel in cockpit or G forces in simulator


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## Bratva

A question is poping up in my head. Did Pak Government secretly signed CISMOA, that's why we are seeing AIM-120, JDAMS, And other high tech electronic equipment?


The conditions attached with PAF F-16's more or less represent conditions of CISMOA


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## ziaulislam

mafiya said:


> A question is poping up in my head. Did Pak Government secretly signed CISMOA, that's why we are seeing AIM-120, JDAMS, And other high tech electronic equipments?


this was one of the reasons why india went on to European fighters instead f US fighters.but still there are no confirm reprots whether we signed it or not.


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## CallsignAlzaeem

mafiya said:


> A question is poping up in my head. Did Pak Government secretly signed CISMOA, that's why we are seeing AIM-120, JDAMS, And other high tech electronic equipments?


 
What's CISMOA??

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## VCheng

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> What's CISMOA??



The Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement.


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## SQ8

araz said:


> Santro
> In the Indo Pak scenario with CMs with 700 KMs , and BM with CEPs of 10 m and ranges upto 1500 KMs, it is a mute point as to what is safe from enemy hands in case of a war.
> Araz



When you move into BM's Araz.. you probably have crossed a threshold..
I had a whole discussion somewhere else as to how does one tell when a BM is carrying a conventional warhead.. or a nuke..
Best left for another thread .

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## SBD-3

full scale cockpit of Falcon C

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## nightcrawler

Santro said:


> When you move into BM's Araz.. you probably have crossed a threshold..
> I had a whole discussion somewhere else as to how does one tell when a BM is carrying a conventional warhead.. or a nuke..
> Best left for another thread .



I would like to know again...giv me a link please


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## SQ8

nightcrawler said:


> I would like to know again...giv me a link please


Dont recall.. search for those with discussion on the DF-21.

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## Arsalan

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> What's CISMOA??





> The Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement or &#8220;CISMoA&#8221; is another facet of bureaucratic and sometimes political attributes of doing business and allying with the United States. The CISMoA should not be confused with the EULA which is a totally different agreement covering the use of systems purchased. The CISMoA provides guidance on how the systems will function with other systems. The CISMoA however, can be abused as an agreement and become an extension of /or a replacement for a EULA which can defeat the entire purpose of any cooperation and the purpose of the CISMoA.


if you need more details, you can visit:
8ak - Indian Defence News

regards!


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## [--Leo--]

what is difference b/w 4th gen BVR and 5ht gen BVR?


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## MastanKhan

nightcrawler said:


> I would like to know again...giv me a link please



Hi,

Or---"golden words once spoken are not uttered again".


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## Last Hope

hasnain0099 said:


> full scale cockpit of Falcon C

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## ejaz007

*L-3 Link awarded contract to provide F-16 ATDs to PAF *

August 12, 2011 (by Rick Oyler) - L-3 Link Simulation & Training (L-3 Link) announced on 8th August that it has been awarded a contract to build and deliver two F-16C block 52 Aircrew Training Devices (ATDs) to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF). 

Both simulators, scheduled for delivery in 2013, will be installed and networked at the PAF's Shahbaz Air Base.

"These F-16C block 52 Aircrew Training Devices will be built on proven and cost-effective common hardware and software designs that will enable L-3 Link to deliver a solution tailored to meet Pakistan Air Force training requirements," said Leonard Genna, president of L-3 Link. "These high-fidelity devices will enable a significant percentage of F-16 pilot training to be conducted through the use of simulation."

The PAF's F-16C Block 52 ATDs will support new pilot, pilot conversion and advanced skills training. Pilots will be able to practice takeoffs and landings, low-level flight and emergency procedures. In support of more advanced skills training, F-16 pilots will be able to acquire and identify targets while accurately delivering a wide range of ordnance during simulated air-to-air and air-to-ground missions.

Each F-16C Block 52 ATD will be integrated with L-3 Link's SimuSphere® HD 18-facet visual system display, which will provide pilots with a 360-degree field-of-view. The simulators also will feature high-definition databases and image generation systems to create highly realistic and relevant training environments. Both F-16 ATDs will incorporate L-3 Link's simulated Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System, enabling pilots to practice control of aircraft targeting systems and sensors. Day and night vision goggle training will be conducted over a geo-specific visual system database of Pakistan.

The two F-16C Block 52 ATDs will be supported by one mission support system. Each simulator will also have a dedicated instructor/operator station.

L-3 Link is the leading provider of F-16 simulators worldwide. Since the 1970s, the company has delivered approximately 140 F-16 training devices in support of the U.S. Air Force, Air National Guard and 10 foreign nations. 

http://www.f-16.net/news_article4408.html


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## Aamir Hussain

In event of a war with India, we will be embargoed -- CISMOA goes out of the window at that point!!!!

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I like Turkish , mentality to extract all the garbage bugged avionics and systems and integrate Turkish 100% safe , unbugged work on F16 , I am suprised why we could not get a deal like Turkey to be able to Assemble our own F16 locally in factory

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## Last Hope

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> I like Turkish , mentality to extract all the garbage bugged avionics and systems and integrate Turkish 100% safe , unbugged work on F16 , I am suprised why we could not get a deal like Turkey to be able to Assemble our own F16 locally in factory



The Turkish may add their own computers in the F-16s, but Pakistan Aeronatical Complex checks the components for the bugs, and I am not wrong, I read on the forum that PAC Kamra has successfuly removed the Killer chips. I dont know more though.


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## Donatello

Last Hope said:


> The Turkish may add their own computers in the F-16s, but Pakistan Aeronatical Complex checks the components for the bugs, and I am not wrong, I read on the forum that PAC Kamra has successfuly removed the Killer chips. I dont know more though.



Man......but i doubt if it was that easy......


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## Last Hope

penumbra said:


> Man......but i doubt if it was that easy......



I am sure about the components of earlier F-16s checked. We should ask fatman17 for the Block 52s.


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## Chogy

The following is addressed to those who think *there are secret OFF codes to U.S. weapons...* I've seen this conspiracy hundreds of tmes in various defense forums. And the F-16 is particularly prone to this ridiculous notion.

Given that American defense contractors are greedy - I've also heard this 1,000 times - and want to sell weapons, 

*What will happen to the U.S. Defense export market the first time a secret OFF code is actually used?*

It would (of course) t_otally collapse_. No one would ever again buy anything more complicated than a rifle from the USA. Therefore, what are the chances that such a system or device actually exists? 

Further, if it DID exist, it would be known by a number of engineers and workers. How much would such knowledge be worth? If I, a Lockheed Martin worker, KNEW that there were OFF codes in an F-16, I could approach China, Egypt, Pakistan, and become an instant multi-millionaire by selling this secret, especially if I knew what the codes were. Imagine being able to negate an entire air fleet with a code!

This hasn't happened yet, for obvious reasons. There are no OFF codes in U.S. military hardware.

With that said, there _are _contractural issues that deal with sensitive technology. That is freely admitted. We have the right, and it is well within our interest, to limit access to sensitive technology. _That doesn't mean the weapons won't work_, nor does it mean that we can send some digital burst out into the ether and have F-16's fall from the sky. Please, can't we let go of this notion? It's like the fake moon landing conspiracy.

Thanks.

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## VCheng

There are no "off" codes, correct.

However, there are multiple published and buried pathways to selectively operate various components of the aircraft with varying degrees of accuracy, and those pathways are not visible or accessible to the end user.

That, Sir Chogy, is a FACT.

Your logic is too simplistic. No one would even know how and when those embedded functionalities are used.


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## nightcrawler

Chogy you are really hilarious, good post


> F-16's fall from the sky.


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## ziaulislam

Chogy said:


> The following is addressed to those who think *there are secret OFF codes to U.S. weapons...* I've seen this conspiracy hundreds of tmes in various defense forums. And the F-16 is particularly prone to this ridiculous notion.
> 
> Given that American defense contractors are greedy - I've also heard this 1,000 times - and want to sell weapons,
> 
> *What will happen to the U.S. Defense export market the first time a secret OFF code is actually used?*
> 
> It would (of course) t_otally collapse_. No one would ever again buy anything more complicated than a rifle from the USA. Therefore, what are the chances that such a system or device actually exists?
> 
> Further, if it DID exist, it would be known by a number of engineers and workers. How much would such knowledge be worth? If I, a Lockheed Martin worker, KNEW that there were OFF codes in an F-16, I could approach China, Egypt, Pakistan, and become an instant multi-millionaire by selling this secret, especially if I knew what the codes were. Imagine being able to negate an entire air fleet with a code!
> 
> This hasn't happened yet, for obvious reasons. There are no OFF codes in U.S. military hardware.
> 
> With that said, there _are _contractural issues that deal with sensitive technology. That is freely admitted. We have the right, and it is well within our interest, to limit access to sensitive technology. _That doesn't mean the weapons won't work_, nor does it mean that we can send some digital burst out into the ether and have F-16's fall from the sky. Please, can't we let go of this notion? It's like the fake moon landing conspiracy.
> 
> Thanks.



i agree to the fact that there are no codes..had that been a fact US would nt have been doing so much cautiousness on sales..it would have sold much equipment to countries that were apparent threat to national security of allies because it could easily use the codes 

however having said that, for US military equipment, in case of war you wouldnt be able to acquire spare parts required andany long term war will eventually force you t ground high tec equipment, like we had to in our F-16s


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## fatman17

Last Hope said:


> I am sure about the components of earlier F-16s checked. We should ask fatman17 for the Block 52s.



sir i dont believe in any of these kill-switch theories!

---------- Post added at 09:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:06 AM ----------

Pakistan has used its US supplied weapons against the indians, soviets and afghans without any problems. all the US could do then and now is put 'sanctions' on us for doing so. why sanction us if these so called kill-switches were there.

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## gambit

VCheng said:


> There are no "off" codes, correct.
> 
> However, there are multiple published and buried pathways to selectively operate various components of the aircraft with varying degrees of accuracy, and those pathways are not visible or accessible to the end user.
> 
> That, Sir Chogy, *is a FACT.*
> 
> Your logic is too simplistic. No one would even know how and when those embedded functionalities are used.


Then you should have no problems providing the readers with a couple of credible sources to this 'fact'.

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## Last Hope

*Alright everyone, the kill switch part, removed from my memory.*

Now the CISMOA. Or the _'terms of use'_. We all know the Turkish Air Force has induced their own built computers for their F-16s. Is it legal for them to do that? Why didn't the US do anything about it? 







Or are they registered for this job, looking at T-A-I modifying the F-16s??

Sorry. Haven't got any knowledge on it


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## VCheng

gambit said:


> Then you should have no problems providing the readers with a couple of credible sources to this 'fact'.



LOL! If only it were that easy!

Only those who have no idea just how complex the software that runs the F-16 would say that.

I have no problem if I am not believed in this matter.

Over and Out!


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## gambit

VCheng said:


> LOL! If only it were that easy!
> 
> *Only those who have no idea just how complex the software that runs the F-16 would say that.*
> 
> I have no problem if I am not believed in this matter.
> 
> Over and Out!


I do have that idea. Looky here, you are doing the typical 'appeal to ignorance' argument where all you can do is make innuendos and leave it up to the gullibles' imagination, not logical thought process, to draw their own conclusions.

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## VCheng

gambit said:


> I do have that idea. Looky here, you are doing the typical 'appeal to ignorance' argument where all you can do is make innuendos and leave it up to the gullibles' imagination, not logical thought process, to draw their own conclusions.



The details of that software are not suitable for discussion in a forum such as this.

I am not making any innuendos: I am clearly stating that the software control has within it embedded pathways to selectively control operation and interoperability of numerous modules in a way that is not accessible to the end user. These pathways can be manipulated and controlled in several ways, and such operation is not detectable either. 

All of this is by design.


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## Chogy

^^ Given human nature, wouldn't those who know about these "embedded pathways" sell the knowledge for perhaps hundreds of millions of $$? People are greedy. There are always spies and sell-outs.

Lockheed-Martin exports billion$ of $$ worth of weapons. Would they risk it all by doing such a thing? Furthermore, and this is important, _consider the spare parts, the logistics._

If Exported F-16's have kill switches or exploitable LRU's, then LM would have to maintain separate parts supplies for each nation they export these jets to. You wouldn't want to introduce a kill switch into a U.S. jet, right? So you'd have differing bus components and black boxes. Is the data-bus module 23-A-GM8762 destined for Pakistan different from the U.S. part?

The whole notion is overly complex and untenable. Like a 9-11 conspiracy, there'd be too many people "in on it" to make it work. But I can understand the allure of the conspiracy. If people believe HAARP makes earthquakes (I'm not saying you do, VCheng), then this is extremely easy to believe in. Because people WANT to believe in it.

And besides, who is to say that Russian hardware is devoid of such systems? The amount of evidence for it is identical to that for U.S. warplanes. Russia is paranoid, that is undeniable. Are the Russians doing it? How about the Chinese? No, the accusation is only against the U.S., because that is the sport_ du jour._


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## VCheng

Chogy said:


> ^^ Given human nature, wouldn't those who know about these "embedded pathways" sell the knowledge for perhaps hundreds of millions of $$? People are greedy. There are always spies and sell-outs.
> 
> Lockheed-Martin exports billion$ of $$ worth of weapons. Would they risk it all by doing such a thing? Furthermore, and this is important, _consider the spare parts, the logistics._
> 
> If Exported F-16's have kill switches or exploitable LRU's, then LM would have to maintain separate parts supplies for each nation they export these jets to. You wouldn't want to introduce a kill switch into a U.S. jet, right? So you'd have differing bus components and black boxes. Is the data-bus module 23-A-GM8762 destined for Pakistan different from the U.S. part?
> 
> The whole notion is overly complex and untenable. Like a 9-11 conspiracy, there'd be too many people "in on it" to make it work. But I can understand the allure of the conspiracy. If people believe HAARP makes earthquakes (I'm not saying you do, VCheng), then this is extremely easy to believe in. Because people WANT to believe in it.
> 
> And besides, who is to say that Russian hardware is devoid of such systems? The amount of evidence for it is identical to that for U.S. warplanes. Russia is paranoid, that is undeniable. Are the Russians doing it? How about the Chinese? No, the accusation is only against the U.S., because that is the sport_ du jour._



Chogy: 

The hardware remains the same, but the software and its capabilities do not. The level of spying and sellouts required to crack what is involved here is so high that it is likely not to happen. If it does, USA has a far bigger problem for sure. 

Oh, and *everybody *does it: Europeans, Russians, Chinese, and the US, just to different levels of sophistication, and you will be happy to know that USA is #1 here too! 

We can respectfully agree to disagree here without going into further details, perhaps the first and only topic on PDF where this has happened so far.

Let me put it this way:

Consider yourself as the person in-charge selling F-16s to Pakistan. How would you build in safeguards against one jet being used by a rogue inside team to nuke Delhi? Or is it your contention that the US government would not have thought of this possibility? Are the MPSs provided to Pakistan specific to that country, not to mention the jets themselves? Hypothetically, would you want these jets to be capable of attacking another friendly country in the Middle East?

Welcome to dark world we live in!


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## VCheng

self-delete due to duplication


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## thinga

hello sir Fatman17, i need your help in this post of mine !
[link]http://www.defence.pk/forums/forces-career-forum/127010-have-read-everything-forum-abt-joining-army-gdm-but-things-mind.html[/link]
i tried to Private Message you about this but forum software is set to 700+ posts by user , to be eligible for PMs.

---------- Post added at 01:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:46 PM ----------

hello sir Fatman17, i need your help in this post of mine !
[link]http://www.defence.pk/forums/forces-career-forum/127010-have-read-everything-forum-abt-joining-army-gdm-but-things-mind.html[/link]
i tried to Private Message you about this but forum software is set to 700+ posts by user , to be eligible for PMs.


----------



## Chogy

> Consider yourself as the person in-charge selling F-16s to Pakistan. How would you build in safeguards against one jet being used by a rogue inside team to nuke Delhi? Or is it your contention that the US government would not have thought of this possibility? Are the MPSs provided to Pakistan specific to that country, not to mention the jets themselves? Hypothetically, would you want these jets to be capable of attacking another friendly country in the Middle East?



VCheng, the problem you (and others) face is that you claim such systems exist. Since we cannot prove a negative ("Prove the system does NOT exist") the burden of proof is with you. It is not adequate to simply say

- The systems are really, really complex
- It _can _be done from a technological POV.
Therefore, it HAS been done.

If a Pakistani F-16 nukes Delhi, the Indians are not going to blame us, they are going to blame Pakistan. Besides, one could load a nuke onto a business jet, so that's not a good example anyhow.

My wife was a systems engineer on the F-16, worked for Lockheed Martin for many years. I flew the F-15 and we had those data modules in the Eagle as well. All they are, are mission and navigational data devices so that the pilot can plan a mission inside operations in safety and take his time doing so.

It can take hours to program a mission. It is not practical to sit in a cockpit and program dozens of latitude and longitude coordinates. A mistake is almost guaranteed. By doing it inside, you can verify the mission, and more importantly, you can download a COPY of the mission, so all the flight members have the same data.

If that jet is powered up without the data, it'll still drop bombs and shoot missiles using the stock avionics.

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## VCheng

Chogy said:


> VCheng, the problem you (and others) face is that you claim such systems exist. Since we cannot prove a negative ("Prove the system does NOT exist") the burden of proof is with you. It is not adequate to simply say
> 
> - The systems are really, really complex
> - It _can _be done from a technological POV.
> Therefore, it HAS been done.
> 
> If a Pakistani F-16 nukes Delhi, the Indians are not going to blame us, they are going to blame Pakistan. Besides, one could load a nuke onto a business jet, so that's not a good example anyhow.
> 
> My wife was a systems engineer on the F-16, worked for Lockheed Martin for many years. I flew the F-15 and we had those data modules in the Eagle as well. All they are, are mission and navigational data devices so that the pilot can plan a mission inside operations in safety and take his time doing so.
> 
> It can take hours to program a mission. It is not practical to sit in a cockpit and program dozens of latitude and longitude coordinates. A mistake is almost guaranteed. By doing it inside, you can verify the mission, and more importantly, you can download a COPY of the mission, so all the flight members have the same data.
> 
> If that jet is powered up without the data, it'll still drop bombs and shoot missiles using the stock avionics.



The MPS/DTC/system software for the F-16PK is unique, Chogy, and exactly as I have described it. I have my own sources for basing my comments.

However, since I cannot go into exacting details here, I will publicly accept your premise, and leave mine as unproved. Proving it on PDF to stroke my own false ego is something that I do not wish to do. Fair enough?

I will however reiterate that the "sandbox" and the "toys" in said "sandbox" are managed very carefully indeed, in a variety of ways, and for a number of reasons. The personnel involved, including the pilot, cannot interfere with or even detect this "adult supervision".

What you describe is correct, but using all of that MPS data and particularly its execution during the mission relies on many other software controls. Sure, the baseline operation of the stock airplane/avionics will go on, but what is the value added role of the precision systems for navigation/targeting/communication/ECM etc. during modern combat? You tell me.


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## Chogy

> Sure, the baseline operation of the stock airplane/avionics will go on, but what is the value added role of the precision systems for navigation/targeting/communication/ECM etc. during modern combat? You tell me.



The value added is very high. I believe we both understand. But I'll leave it at this - I think it is irresponsible to promulgate the notion of a kill switch, because that is what 98% of readers think it is. And given that there is no way to openly discuss the specifics without an OPSEC violation, then the less-than-accurate impression (kill switch) is what people are going to take from it.

It is more accurate to say something like this: "There is technology in these systems that is extremely sensitive that will probably remain in control of the U.S. That does not mean the weapons will not work. The GOP and the PAF were entirely aware of these limitations, yet were happy to add these jets to their inventory, regardless. That should say something - namely, even in a worst-case scenario, the aircraft would remain important and effective assets."

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## VCheng

Chogy said:


> The value added is very high. I believe we both understand. But I'll leave it at this - I think it is irresponsible to promulgate the notion of a kill switch, because that is what 98% of readers think it is. And given that there is no way to openly discuss the specifics without an OPSEC violation, then the less-than-accurate impression (kill switch) is what people are going to take from it.
> 
> It is more accurate to say something like this: "There is technology in these systems that is extremely sensitive that will probably remain in control of the U.S. That does not mean the weapons will not work. The GOP and the PAF were entirely aware of these limitations, yet were happy to add these jets to their inventory, regardless. That should say something - namely, even in a worst-case scenario, the aircraft would remain important and effective assets."



I can accept that. Thank you! 

I will say no more on this topic.


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## pdf-admin

well can any one tell me how is f16 is capable against rafale


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## Last Hope

*@Mr. Chogy. Thank you sir for clarifying. It's indeed a rumour.
*
Anyways, a hot picture of PAF F-16 Block 15.


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## VCheng

^^^ oh yay, looking might good there!


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## Chogy

VCheng said:


> I can accept that. Thank you!
> 
> I will say no more on this topic.



Sounds good, Amigo!


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## VCheng

Chogy said:


> Sounds good, Amigo!



Roger that!


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## RetardedBuddy

Chogy said:


> It is more accurate to say something like this: "There is technology in these systems that is extremely sensitive that will probably remain in control of the U.S. That does not mean the weapons will not work. "



What about leaks in this technology? I'm pretty sure these would fetch high prices to international buyers, a situation similar to the Nuclear Proliferation


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## IceCold

Chogy said:


> It is more accurate to say something like this: "There is technology in these systems that is extremely sensitive that will probably remain in control of the U.S. That does not mean the weapons will not work. *The GOP and the PAF were entirely aware of these limitations*.



Sir can you please shed some light on these limitations. What i understand from your post and V Cheng is that there are many sensitive technology involved and that remains the property of the US, rightly so........My understanding of this whole debate is from a novice point of view is that these check and balances might be there to prevent the misuse of sensitive technology but how exactly does that effect the capability of the jet?
The popular impression is that these jet will be rendered useless against let me say it out loud "INDIA" but then again US allowed the sale of the AMRAAM, we all know those are not meant to be used against talibans since they don't fly jets. So what exactly is the US preventing and even if it is, how does it effect us or in another words benefits India?


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## VCheng

IceCold said:


> Sir can you please shed some light on these limitations. What i understand from your post and V Cheng is that there are many sensitive technology involved and that remains the property of the US, rightly so........My understanding of this whole debate is from a novice point of view is that these check and balances might be there to prevent the misuse of sensitive technology but how exactly does that effect the capability of the jet?
> The popular impression is that these jet will be rendered useless against let me say it out loud "INDIA" but then again US allowed the sale of the AMRAAM, we all know those are not meant to be used against talibans since they don't fly jets. So what exactly is the US preventing and even if it is, how does it effect us or in another words benefits India?



It does not affect the capabilities of the jet, and even if it did, which it does not, those limitations, which do not exist, have been disclosed to, and accepted by, the Government of Pakistan and the Pakistan Air Force, just like Chogy said and I agreed.

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## Pk_Thunder

Dont know if this video was posted before...a great performance of f16 at Izmir show!

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## VCheng

^^^ Most excellent and most impressive!


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## Pk_Thunder

I still feel that F16A is on top of the line in PAF when it comes to maneuverability and agility.After watching the above video i wonder how good JF17 is that it has beaten f16 recently in maneuverability.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

if the F-16s and accompanying new hardware are not used as intended, they dont need kill-swtiches or any of that other over-hyped propaganda. What they can do is force Lockheed Martin and other defence contractors not to provide spares/tech support to PAF --which eventually would entail grounding the fleet.

the Americans arent stupid, obviously they know that these weapons (e.g. the AIM-120 'Charlies' , Sniper target pods, etc.) are not *all* to be ''aimed'' at counter-insurgency against taleban enemies. It is true that these ''bonus'' aircrafts give us an edge in night-time precision ground attack capability, which is crucial for PAF in conventional and non-conventional war. 

Remember that all these deals were made under the previous regime in Islamabad - circa 2004. Bilateral relations were much smoother then, and by law and b/c of their interest in not squashing relations they are ''compelled'' to honour the contracts that were signed. I dont think Americans want to repeat history of taking our money and not delivering the aircrafts -like what they did during Pressler Amendment (which did damage relations significantly). At least for now, that is how it is. 


does this mean that future procurements or similar weapons purchases would be as easily transacted? Well, we will have to wait and see. PAF for obvious reasons can't afford to put all eggs in one basket. But we have to value and accept that the American technology is still creme de la crop --it's reliable, advanced and well battle-tested.

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## Jango

love it when the F-16 does that turn on 0:33 seconds.


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## farhan_9909

Best performance of f-16 i have ever seen


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## thinga

extreeeme !
hilarious machine ! in flawless hands !


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## VCheng

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> if the F-16s and accompanying new hardware are not used as intended, they dont need kill-swtiches or any of that other over-hyped propaganda. What they can do is force Lockheed Martin and other defence contractors not to provide spares/tech support to PAF --which eventually would entail grounding the fleet.
> 
> the Americans arent stupid, obviously they know that these weapons (e.g. the AIM-120 'Charlies' , Sniper target pods, etc.) are not *all* to be ''aimed'' at counter-insurgency against taleban enemies. It is true that these ''bonus'' aircrafts give us an edge in night-time precision ground attack capability, which is crucial for PAF in conventional and non-conventional war.
> 
> Remember that all these deals were made under the previous regime in Islamabad - circa 2004. Bilateral relations were much smoother then, and by law and b/c of their interest in not squashing relations they are ''compelled'' to honour the contracts that were signed. I dont think Americans want to repeat history of taking our money and not delivering the aircrafts -like what they did during Pressler Amendment (which did damage relations significantly). At least for now, that is how it is.
> 
> 
> does this mean that future procurements or similar weapons purchases would be as easily transacted? Well, we will have to wait and see. PAF for obvious reasons can't afford to put all eggs in one basket. But we have to value and accept that the American technology is still creme de la crop --it's reliable, advanced and well battle-tested.



AZ: I have to honor my agreement with Chogy. 

The F-16 is a great platform to be sure, and it forms an important part of the PAF armamentarium, as you have indicated. I am happy with that too.


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## soul hacker

Pk_Thunder said:


> Dont know if this video was posted before...a great performance of f16 at Izmir show!




love this beauty,one of best perfomance i have ever seen very agile


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## mitth

Very good and nice Pakistani GD-Pilot nice..........


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## VCheng

soul hacker said:


> love this beauty,one of best perfomance i have ever seen very agile



Oh yeah, very shiny, very beautiful, very agile, very lethal... wow..... wonderful!


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## CallsignAlzaeem

Pk_Thunder said:


> Dont know if this video was posted before...a great performance of f16 at Izmir show!



Performed by Wing Commander Ali Naeem Zahoor.


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## Manticore




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## Bratva




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## Manticore

Pk_Thunder said:


> Dont know if this video was posted before...a great performance of f16 at Izmir show!



http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/25862-paf-air-show-videos-5.html
have been posted here earlier -- mods , kindly transfer the thread to the mil. multimedia subforum
regards


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## Jango

VCheng said:


> Oh yeah, very shiny, very beautiful, very agile, very lethal... wow..... wonderful!


 
The most beautiful bird in the sky produced by Americans. The Sukhois and MiG's still take the edge though in good looks.


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## CallsignAlzaeem



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## VCheng

nuclearpak said:


> The most beautiful bird in the sky produced by Americans. The Sukhois and MiG's still take the edge though in good looks.



The F-16 looks great, I agree, but I prefer the French designs after US ones over the Russian ones.


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## Jango

VCheng said:


> The F-16 looks great, I agree, but I prefer the French designs after US ones over the Russian ones.



Well, IMO:

1- Russian MiG's and Sukhois
2- F-16
3- Eurofighter typhoon.

Really awesome pieces of design and aerodynamic engineering marvel.

But the russians do have a tendency to get the nos really bulbous, the aircraft is sleek, and the nose is really huge because of the radar. That is why the MiG-29 UB is the best looking A/C in russian ranks IMO.


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## bigest

F16 is a nice fighter


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## Chogy

IceCold said:


> *The popular impression is that these jet will be rendered useless* against let me say it out loud "INDIA" but then again US allowed the sale of the AMRAAM, we all know those are not meant to be used against talibans since they don't fly jets. So what exactly is the US preventing and even if it is, how does it effect us or in another words benefits India?



The AIM-120 was sold to Pakistan because Pakistan wanted the missile, and the U.S. wants good relations with Pakistan. It's no more complex than that. It would be insulting to Pakistan to limit arms only to those that could be used on the Taliban.

What got me going on this topic is the bold part of your quote... too many guys literally think it is a kill switch, and the jets won't even fly.

Think of the software in the F-16 as an OS, an operating system. You power the jet up, it boots, and you have a "basic installation", F-16 V5.0 

You have an AI radar, HUD, algorithms to drop bombs, detect, track and engage airborne targets, navigate, etc etc. It'll fight just fine. But like any OS, you can install programs that might do something a little better than the basic OS applets. So NOTEPAD becomes MS WORD; you get more capability.

This is kind of a lame analogy, but hopefully it's understandable. Some of the software deals with super-sensitive data and operating modes. In my career, we had a vault full of material stamped SECRET/NOFORN, with NOFORN meaning "no dissemination to foreign (non U.S.) personnel. All States have material that they consider highly sensitive. What we have here is a data methodology to allow Pakistan access to critical data, without compromising that data. I hope this makes sense.

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## Chogy

nuclearpak said:


> The most beautiful bird in the sky produced by Americans. The Sukhois and MiG's still take the edge though in good looks.



Enjoy them while they last! The days of beautiful, sleek, aggressive fighters are numbered. Stealth requirements are killing these beautiful lines. No one thinks the F-22, T-50, J-20 look as good as their 1990's gen IV counterparts.

Although the F-23 looks like a space ship - awesome lines.

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## truthseeker2010

Pk_Thunder said:


> Dont know if this video was posted before...a great performance of f16 at Izmir show!



I don't know if somebody noted or not but it follows the same routine as Haseeb Paracha did on 23 march, loop, left bank, cuban 8, high speed turn, and then rolls... nothing new....


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## DV RULES

VCheng said:


> The F-16 looks great, I agree, but I prefer the French designs after US ones over the Russian ones.



Russian designs are many steps ahead from french designs. Moreover technology.


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## Jango

Chogy said:


> Enjoy them while they last! The days of beautiful, sleek, aggressive fighters are numbered. Stealth requirements are killing these beautiful lines. No one thinks the F-22, T-50, J-20 look as good as their 1990's gen IV counterparts.
> 
> Although the F-23 looks like a space ship - awesome lines.



Looks much like a raptor, but with somebody slapping it's behind in!. F-22 is the best looking 5th-Gen A/C. But all others are UGLY.

F-16, Su's, MiG's, are the most sexiest aircraft in the world. add ET to that.

An nice explanation you gave about the kill switch misconception Chogy.

Many think that the guy sitting in Edwards AFB or Pentagon will press a switch, and start controlling it and destroy it, just like a drone!


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## VCheng

Chogy said:


> ............................
> 
> You have an AI radar, HUD, algorithms to drop bombs, detect, track and engage airborne targets, navigate, etc etc. It'll fight just fine. But like any OS, you can install programs that might do something a little better than the basic OS applets. *So NOTEPAD becomes MS WORD*; you get more capability.
> 
> .......................



I couldn't have said it any better. Thanks Chogy! 

Edit:

This may or may not be part of the analogy as well. 



> Do you have Excel 97 ? And you lack money to buy Flight Simulator ? No problem . Consistent with Windows 98 and IE 4.0 , MS has used their philosophy of "Everything inside one" ! Try these , unbelievable , but it works .
> 
> _Restart Excel 97 .
> Open a new blank document .
> Press F5 .
> A reference box will open , type in X97:L97 and press ENTER .
> Press TAB .This will take you to the cell M97 .
> Click on the chart wizard button while holding down Control and Shift keys ._
> 
> Presto ! You are in Flight Simulator . Use mouse to navigate and mouse buttons for speed control . Control+Shift+Escape ends this and takes you back to Excel .


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## Last Hope

Sorry if these were posted earlier!

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## razgriz19

Chogy said:


> Enjoy them while they last! The days of beautiful, sleek, aggressive fighters are numbered. Stealth requirements are killing these beautiful lines. No one thinks the F-22, T-50, J-20 look as good as their 1990's gen IV counterparts.
> 
> Although the F-23 looks like a space ship - awesome lines.



YF-23 is my most favorite aircraft! sad it lost due to its less agility...
i read it somewhere that this aircraft was suprior in each and every way than f-22 except maneuverability. too bad Northrop couldnt put a thrust vectoring nozzle on this bird in time, otherwise this would be in service!

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## IceCold

Chogy said:


> The AIM-120 was sold to Pakistan because Pakistan wanted the missile, and the U.S. wants good relations with Pakistan. It's no more complex than that. It would be insulting to Pakistan to limit arms only to those that could be used on the Taliban.
> 
> What got me going on this topic is the bold part of your quote... too many guys literally think it is a kill switch, and the jets won't even fly.
> 
> Think of the software in the F-16 as an OS, an operating system. You power the jet up, it boots, and you have a "basic installation", F-16 V5.0
> 
> You have an AI radar, HUD, algorithms to drop bombs, detect, track and engage airborne targets, navigate, etc etc. It'll fight just fine. But like any OS, you can install programs that might do something a little better than the basic OS applets. So NOTEPAD becomes MS WORD; you get more capability.
> 
> This is kind of a lame analogy, but hopefully it's understandable. Some of the software deals with super-sensitive data and operating modes. In my career, we had a vault full of material stamped SECRET/NOFORN, with NOFORN meaning "no dissemination to foreign (non U.S.) personnel. All States have material that they consider highly sensitive. What we have here is a data methodology to allow Pakistan access to critical data, without compromising that data. I hope this makes sense.



It completely does make sense Sir and thank you for your time to reply. And no sir your analogy is not lame, infact for a layman like myself, i wouldn't been able to understand the more technical stuff. But now i do.

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## rockstarIN

razgriz19 said:


> YF-23 is my most favorite aircraft! sad it lost due to its less agility...
> i read it somewhere that this aircraft was suprior in each and every way than f-22 except maneuverability. too bad Northrop couldnt put a thrust vectoring nozzle on this bird in time, otherwise this would be in service!



It does not look that stealthy, than F-22. May be this is just a prototype.


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## IceCold

>



This lost to F-22. Ohh damn. What a beautiful bird this is. Haven't seen the pic before. Looks like a space ship. Imagine what would have an enemy pilot think seeing an alien ship coming his way.


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## Kompromat

Enjoy

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## Windjammer

Now this is interesting, according to a news report in the latest edition of AFM,
Lockheed Martin was awarded a $42.31 million Foreign Military Sales contract on July 29 through the US Air Force for ten additional Enhanced Modernisation Programme kits for as-yet undelivered PAF F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft. The order follows on from a previous $325.485 million deal for 35 F-16A/B MLU kits that was awarded to LM on May 21 2010.
Prior to this, a deal has been signed on June 29 2009, with TAI to upgrade 41 aircraft. The first three (two F-16As and one F-16B) are now being worked on in Ankara.


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## SBD-3

Windjammer said:


> Now this is interesting, according to a news report in the latest edition of AFM,
> Lockheed Martin was awarded a $42.31 million Foreign Military Sales contract on July 29 through the US Air Force for ten additional Enhanced Modernisation Programme kits for as-yet undelivered PAF F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft. The order follows on from a previous $325.485 million deal for 35 F-16A/B MLU kits that was awarded to LM on May 21 2010.
> Prior to this, a deal has been signed on June 29 2009, with TAI to upgrade 41 aircraft. The first three (two F-16As and one F-16B) are now being worked on in Ankara.


This is an old news yaar, TAI engneers are now in PAC as per latest to upgrade the rest in Pakistan. This order may have been for those birds which were initially kept for spares, there may have been a decision to upgrade these to Block 40 standard as well

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## Windjammer

hasnain0099 said:


> This is an old news yaar, TAI engneers are now in PAC as per latest to upgrade the rest in Pakistan. This order may have been for those birds which were initially kept for spares, there may have been a decision to upgrade these to Block 40 standard as well



My dear, the TAI related may be an old news but as the report quotes, "As-yet undelivered", it may be pointing towards the embargoed aircraft operated by US Navy.


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## araz

It appears to be from the latest AFM and hte script clearly states "as yet undelivered". We always thought this was for the Bl `15 OCU units which PAF received. I dont know whetehr we will see these ACs being delivered under the current climate so lets wait and watch.
Araz


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## fatman17

NO. like the blk 52 order which was 'reduced' from 36 to 18, the MLU order was also 'reduced' from then 45 to 35 kits due to the 'earhquake'. these 10 kits are for the 44 (1 attrition since) aircraft. US Navy blk-15's may never be delivered.

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## razgriz19

^^those airframes are not even air worthy any more, if PAF do get them some how, they would only be good for spares and nothing else


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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> ^^those airframes are not even air worthy any more, if PAF do get them some how, they would only be good for spares and nothing else



that is in-correct. the fact that PAF insisted on getting the original 28 embargoed a/c was the low airframe hours of the same.


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## VCheng

Much more important than airframes and engines these days are the software/electronic/armament upgrades, in determining the role of a particular plane type in a modern air force.


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## Jango

Aeronaut said:


> Enjoy


 Now, that's beautiful


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## abaseen99




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## zhang2011

Improved radar. The new radar is able to track 6-8 targets at the same time, and engage 4 of the 6-8 tracked simultaneously. When used against large surface target such as a destroyer, the maximum range of the radar was in excess of 350 km. The range against aerial targets was not disclosed, but it would be definitely much shorter, as in all radars. The Chinese official report claims that the radar is better than the 147x/KLJ-X radar family, but stop short of identifying the exact type.


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## MastanKhan

IceCold said:


> This lost to F-22. Ohh damn. What a beautiful bird this is. Haven't seen the pic before. Looks like a space ship. Imagine Icecoled,
> 
> The thing is what would have an enemy pilot think seeing an alien ship coming his way.



Icecold,

The reality would be that the enemy pilot will never see this plane in the air---.

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## SBD-3

MastanKhan said:


> Icecold,
> 
> The reality would be that the enemy pilot will never see this plane in the air---.



I think the Boeing itself was more to blame than LMCO as this baby rolled out earlier than YF-22, Made a 1 hour median test flight, and then suddenly Boeing went quiet and let LMCO rock the show....Pretty strange for me at least.


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> NO. like the blk 52 order which was 'reduced' from 36 to 18, the MLU order was also 'reduced' from then 45 to 35 kits due to the 'earhquake'. these 10 kits are for the 44 (1 attrition since) aircraft. US Navy blk-15's may never be delivered.



Sir, if i am not mistaken, albeit, the news item states, ten additional kits, but it adds, *for as yet undelivered PAF F-16A/B* aircraft.


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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> Sir, if i am not mistaken, albeit, the news item states, ten additional kits, but it adds, *for as yet undelivered PAF F-16A/B* aircraft.



that is right but AFM is making an error here - we can always write to them for clarification.


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## razgriz19

fatman17 said:


> that is in-correct. the fact that PAF insisted on getting the original 28 embargoed a/c was the low airframe hours of the same.



14 of them we got it earlier i think you know that, but the other aircrafts were transferred to aggressor squadron. they fly regularly and very aggressively, and they also perform ACM over sea.
but yes they started flying these birds since 2002, so in terms of years in service it still got plenty of life. but they perform sorties almost everyday, and the airframes are considerably damage because of high stress cause by pulling high Gs


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## Jango

what is an aggressor squadron?


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## razgriz19

nuclearpak said:


> what is an aggressor squadron?



"An aggressor squadron or adversary squadron (in the US Navy and USMC) is a squadron that is trained to act as an opposing force in military wargames. Aggressor squadrons use enemy tactics, techniques, and procedures to give a realistic simulation of air combat (as opposed to training against one's own forces). "
-ripped off from wiki

so basically they train pilots in dogfighting, droping bombs etc.
watch TOPGUN =D

this is what their aircrafdts look like in US military..
btw they are ex-PAF F-16s blk 15

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## Last Hope



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## razgriz19

did PAF buy any practice rounds for AMRAAM??


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## gambit

> nuclearpak said:
> 
> 
> 
> what is an aggressor squadron?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> razgriz19 said:
> 
> 
> 
> "An aggressor squadron or adversary squadron (in the US Navy and USMC) is a squadron that is trained to act as an opposing force in military wargames. Aggressor squadrons use enemy tactics, techniques, and procedures to give a realistic simulation of air combat (as opposed to training against one's own forces). "
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Wrong...!!!  An 'aggressor squadron' is an American bar-hopping night slang term for a bunch of guys who hit on other guys' girlfriends and wives. They got 'leads' and 'wingmen', just like real pilots do. Wingmen divert 'plain jane' women's the men's attention while the leads zero in on the hot chicks.

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## Mech

gambit said:


> Wrong...!!!  An 'aggressor squadron' is an American bar-hopping night slang term for a bunch of guys who hit on other guys' girlfriends and wives. They got 'leads' and 'wingmen', just like real pilots do. Wingmen divert 'plain jane' women's the men's attention while the leads zero in on the hot chicks.


 
  Made my day......That was just awesome


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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> did PAF buy any practice rounds for AMRAAM??



standard operating procedure!


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> that is right but AFM is making an error here - we can always write to them for clarification.



I did, and this is the reply I received.



> They are part of the F-16 deal that was embargoed  only half of them were delivered; the ex-USN ones never made it because of their high stress levels etc and only the USAF ones made it. Thus the PAF will take delivery of another batch of Block 15s.
> 
> *Alan Warnes
> Chief Correspondent, AFM and Aviation News*

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## Jango

gambit said:


> Wrong...!!!  An 'aggressor squadron' is an American bar-hopping night slang term for a bunch of guys who hit on other guys' girlfriends and wives. They got 'leads' and 'wingmen', just like real pilots do. Wingmen divert 'plain jane' women's the men's attention while the leads zero in on the hot chicks.



Looks like you had some aggressive missions yourself!


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## razgriz19

Windjammer said:


> I did, and this is the reply I received.



my suspicion was right, "high stress"...
when you have one of the finest pilots flying these birds, the life of the airframe goes down in months!


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## Windjammer

razgriz19 said:


> my suspicion was right, "high stress"...
> when you have one of the finest pilots flying these birds, the life of the airframe goes down in months!



I also read somewhere that, Naval aircraft have to be specially treated to protect the airframes from salty sea air, one highly doubts that the embargoed F-16s went through the same procedure, hence that may have added to the stress level.


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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> I did, and this is the reply I received.



that is good news indeed!!!


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> I also read somewhere that, Naval aircraft have to be specially treated to protect the airframes from salty sea air, one highly doubts that the embargoed F-16s went through the same procedure, hence that may have added to the stress level.


 
Well, naval helis are washed with some chemicals and other stuff, so that it is protected from the saltiness ruining the frame. Washing is also done regularly.

Ships also wear down pretty quickly. Jets would have been subjected to some special treatment as well.


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## nomi007

kindly update your information that USA is providing up gradation kits to tai for converting paf-16 block 15 into block 40+ standard.
this program is called Falcon STAR.
(Structural Augmentation Road map)is a program to repair and replace critical airframe components on all F-16A/B/C/D aircraft; like Falcon UP, it is intended to ensure an 8000-hour service life, but it is based on more recent operational usage statistics. The first redelivery occurred in February 2004, and in 2007 the USAF announced that it would upgrade 651 Block 40/42/50/52 F-16s; this is expected to extend the Falcon STAR program, which began in 1999, through 2014


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> that is good news indeed!!!



So technically there is possibility of raising another Squadron. ??!!


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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> So technically there is possibility of raising another Squadron. ??!!



yes or a OCU.

so which are the F-16 squadrons - 5-9-11 thats 54 a/c. we have 63.


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> yes or a OCU.
> 
> so which are the F-16 squadrons - 5-9-11 thats 54 a/c. we have 63.



Add say another 10 to that =73.
4 X16 Squadron strength and still ample numbers in reserve.
Another news item reports that, Pakistan has recently signed for two new Block-52 F-16 aircrew training systems.
Now was this required for merely 18 aircrafts, and that too after the squadron has become operational. ??


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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> Add say another 10 to that =73.
> 4 X16 Squadron strength and still ample numbers in reserve.
> Another news item reports that, Pakistan has recently signed for two new Block-52 F-16 aircrew training systems.
> Now was this required for merely 18 aircrafts, and that too after the squadron has become operational. ??



i'll count them in when delivered.


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## Last Hope

Windjammer said:


> Add say another 10 to that =73.
> 4 X16 Squadron strength and still ample numbers in reserve.*
> Another news item reports that, Pakistan has recently signed for two new Block-52 F-16 aircrew training systems.
> Now was this required for merely 18 aircrafts, and that too after the squadron has become operational.* ??



No Windjammer bro.
PAF signed for two L-3 simulators, after finalizing deal of 18 new F-16Cs (Block-52+) _(inside sources say that they will all carry CFTs)_. This deal of 18 more F-16s was over a month ago. That maybe the reason for L-3 simulators.

Anyways, the old pilots are going to retire and newbies will replace them. For training, they would be using L-3 simulators. 
That means, training plus using F-16s at the same time. Much feasible.

Hope your confusion is cleared


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## Windjammer

Last Hope said:


> No Windjammer bro.
> PAF signed for two L-3 simulators, after finalizing deal of 18 new F-16Cs (Block-52+) _(inside sources say that they will all carry CFTs)_. This deal of 18 more F-16s was over a month ago. That maybe the reason for L-3 simulators.
> 
> Anyways, the old pilots are going to retire and newbies will replace them. For training, they would be using L-3 simulators.
> That means, training plus using F-16s at the same time. Much feasible.
> 
> Hope your confusion is cleared



My dear, I was quoting from October issue of Combat Aircraft.


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## Last Hope

Windjammer said:


> My dear, I was quoting from October issue of Combat Aircraft.



Sorry. Wasn't on the thread for past time.


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## Jango

Which is the OCU squadron? And where is it based?

9 and 11 squadron are at PAF Base Mushaf, where is 5?


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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> Which is the OCU squadron? And where is it based?
> 
> 9 and 11 squadron are at PAF Base Mushaf, where is 5?


No 11 OCU (Arrows)
5 Squadron Home base......Shahbaz Air Base.....Jacobabad.


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> No 11 OCU (Arrows)
> 5 Squadron Home base......Shahbaz Air Base.....Jacobabad.


 
Thanks WJ. JF is at Peshawar?


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## Mech

nuclearpak said:


> Which is the OCU squadron? And where is it based?
> 
> 9 and 11 squadron are at PAF Base Mushaf, where is 5?


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> 5th Squadron or the Falcons!



So, is this the only unit with Blk 52?


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## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> So, is this the only unit with Blk 52?



Yes.. unless the option for another 18 is taken.


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## Windjammer

Santro said:


> Yes.. unless the option for another 18 is taken.



Which does seem a likely possibility now.


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## Jango

So, 18 plus 63= 81?, so we will have 81 Falcons in our AF?


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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> So, 18 plus 63= 81?, so we will have 81 Falcons in our AF?



If all options are exercised, we should have over 90 or at least five squadrons.


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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Thanks WJ. JF is at Peshawar?


Yes. 26 Squadron has them. 


nuclearpak said:


> So, is this the only unit with Blk 52?


Yes. The Falcons and the arrows have them. Falcons are in Miranshah and Arrows are in Jacobabad. If I am not wrong, Falcons have the F-16D.


Santro said:


> Yes.. unless the option for another 18 is taken.


It is taken according to inside sources.


Windjammer said:


> If all options are exercised, we should have over 90 or at least five squadrons.


103 (total F-16s including the latest to-be purchased 18), - (9 F-16 crashed) = *94.*
Minus-ing the to-be bought 18, *76 * F-16s are currently owned out of which 17 are Block 52s and some of the remaining are in Turkey.


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## Jango

So, PAF is on track to achieve the supposed 100 landmark.

Last Hope, there are F-16 in Miranshah?


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## Windjammer

Last Hope said:


> Yes. 26 Squadron has them.



As does No 16 (Panther)


> Yes. The Falcons and the arrows have them. Falcons are in Miranshah and Arrows are in Jacobabad. If I am not wrong, Falcons have the F-16D.


No 9 Squadron (Griffins) and No 11 Squadron (Arrows) are both equipped with older F-16 and based in Mushaf/Sargodha .
No 5 (Falcons) is equipped with the latest Block-52 C/D Variants.



> 103 (total F-16s including the latest to-be purchased 18), - (9 F-16 crashed) = *94.*
> Minus-ing the to-be bought 18, *76 * F-16s are currently owned out of which 17 are Block 52s and some of the remaining are in Turkey.


There is some confusion about the actual number operational or in the pipe line. 
Santro and sir Fatman can clear the issue.

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## Windjammer




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## SQ8

Current fleet status would be difficult to ascertain accurately..
As some F-16's are undergoing MLU in both the US and Turkey.
So how many vipers are sitting in Pakistan is a sketchy number.

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## SBD-3

Santro said:


> Current fleet status would be difficult to ascertain accurately..
> As some F-16's are undergoing MLU in both the US and Turkey.
> So how many vipers are sitting in Pakistan is a sketchy number.


I was kind of wondering...have there been any efforts on part of PAF to possiballity of future acquisition the TuAF Block 40/50 Falcons as they start inducting JSFs?...It would be an economical option indeed.


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## [--Leo--]

i have read some there are 14 additional F-16 ordered but you saying 18 then it is would be 18 my question is when they gona dilvered?


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## MZUBAIR

[--Leo--];2087582 said:


> i have read some there are 14 additional F-16 ordered but you saying 18 then it is would be 18 my question is when they gona dilvered?



When US + PAK are back on their LOVE relation


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## fatman17

Santro said:


> Current fleet status would be difficult to ascertain accurately..
> As some F-16's are undergoing MLU in both the US and Turkey.
> So how many vipers are sitting in Pakistan is a sketchy number.



we have a fairly good idea!


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## SQ8

hasnain0099 said:


> I was kind of wondering...have there been any efforts on part of PAF to possiballity of future acquisition the TuAF Block 40/50 Falcons as they start inducting JSFs?...It would be an economical option indeed.



The F-16's.. are and will remain the stop gap for the PAF in later years.. 
By the time the TuAF starts phasing out its F-16's in the mid 2020's timeline, there is most likely to be more Chinese options available to us, possibly even 5th gen to induct into the PAF Orbat.

---------- Post added at 02:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:24 AM ----------




fatman17 said:


> we have a fairly good idea!



Not until last month.. apparently more F-16's are heading out to Turkey since the line for MLU's in Kamra is taking a little longer to setup... or that is what I heard.

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## fatman17

MZUBAIR said:


> When US + PAK are back on their LOVE relation



sir its on-off-on relationship - kinda like liz taylor and richard burton !!!

---------- Post added at 01:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 PM ----------




Santro said:


> The F-16's.. are and will remain the stop gap for the PAF in later years..
> By the time the TuAF starts phasing out its F-16's in the mid 2020's timeline, there is most likely to be more Chinese options available to us, possibly even 5th gen to induct into the PAF Orbat.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:24 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> Not until last month.. apparently more F-16's are heading out to Turkey since the line for MLU's in Kamra is taking a little longer to setup... or that is what I heard.



4 in US for MLU (pattern a/c) with training for PAF engg's
3 in Turkey for MLU
6 more scheduled for Turkey.

Kamra MLU facility cant start until the 4 pattern a/c are returned by Q-1-2012.
so 13 aircraft not available

rest available.

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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> sir its on-off-on relationship - kinda like liz taylor and richard burton !!!
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 4 in US for MLU (pattern a/c) with training for PAF engg's
> 3 in Turkey for MLU
> 6 more scheduled for Turkey.
> 
> Kamra MLU facility cant start until the 4 pattern a/c are returned by Q-1-2012.
> so 13 aircraft not available
> 
> rest available.


 
So the ones going MLU in Turkey will be different from the MLU carried out on the rest of the fleet?
Since the pattern jets will form the basis for the MLU for the rest of the fleet and not the TAI MLU'ed ones?


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## fatman17

Santro said:


> So the ones going MLU in Turkey will be different from the MLU carried out on the rest of the fleet?
> Since the pattern jets will form the basis for the MLU for the rest of the fleet and not the TAI MLU'ed ones?



cant say but should be the same.


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## TOPGUN

How many vipers are in US for mlu and how many are in Turkey for mlu?


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## DANGER-ZONE

TOPGUN said:


> How many vipers are in US for mlu and how many are in Turkey for mlu?



Answer is on last page. 



fatman17 said:


> sir its on-off-on relationship - kinda like liz taylor and richard burton !!!
> 
> ---------- Post added at 01:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> *4 in US for MLU (pattern a/c) with training for PAF engg's*
> *3 in Turkey for MLU
> 6 more scheduled for Turkey.*
> 
> Kamra MLU facility cant start until the 4 pattern a/c are returned by Q-1-2012.
> so 13 aircraft not available
> 
> rest available.


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## TOPGUN

danger-zone said:


> Answer is on last page.




Thx bro i didn't read it opps happens ...


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## TheIncredible

are anymore birds coming to pakistan?? what about from different nations? like the netherlands other european countries, will they sell after getting the F-35.. We need a strong air force... well... stronger than india at the very least.

He who controls the air, controls the battlefied peeps. 

peace out... 

and replies plezzie


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## TOPGUN

TheIncredible said:


> are anymore birds coming to pakistan?? what about from different nations? like the netherlands other european countries, will they sell after getting the F-35.. We need a strong air force... well... stronger than india at the very least.
> 
> He who controls the air, controls the battlefied peeps.
> 
> peace out...
> 
> and replies plezzie



Well boss looks to be but not sure PAF is going to try to go for 18 new option for blk-52's plus always not sure but PAF is also trying to get some second hand vipers from another source /country so lets see what happens.


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## air marshal

*September 5, 1989: Pakistan orders 60 F-16s (Peace Gate IV).*


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## CallsignAlzaeem

Adrenaline pumping !!

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## fatman17

air marshal said:


> *September 5, 1989: Pakistan orders 60 F-16s (Peace Gate IV).*



.....and got 14 a/c after a delay of 17 years!

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## epinephrine

US tried her best to sell the embargoed F-16s to many countries but failed every time.those F-16s were in good condition n every country trying to get new F-16s had look at the embargoed pakistani F-16s but the deal never materialized.many years later we got our money back in the form of wheeat n now we have got the birds back finally.

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## mitth

epinephrine said:


> US tried her best to sell the embargoed F-16s to many countries but failed every time.those F-16s were in good condition n every country trying to get new F-16s had look at the embargoed pakistani F-16s but the deal never materialized.many years later we got our money back in the form of wheeat n now we have got the birds back finally.


Good job and discussion...............


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## razgriz19

epinephrine said:


> US tried her best to sell the embargoed F-16s to many countries but failed every time.those F-16s were in good condition n every country trying to get new F-16s had look at the embargoed pakistani F-16s but the deal never materialized.many years later we got our money back in the form of wheeat n now we have got the birds back finally.



yeah musharraf said it in some interview that we got the money back in wheat, soy beans etc. but that money was for the other 14 aircrafts that are in US navy right now....(28 of them were embargoed remember)
those other 14 aircrafts that we recieved from USAF, just came after the delayed of nearly 2 decades like sir fatman17 said. so basically we didn't get any "late fees" for these aircrafts...
US ripped us off!


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## SBD-3

razgriz19 said:


> yeah musharraf said it in some interview that we got the money back in wheat, soy beans etc. but that money was for the other *14 aircrafts that are in US navy right now*....(28 of them were embargoed remember)
> those other 14 aircrafts that we recieved from USAF, just came after the delayed of nearly 2 decades like sir fatman17 said. so basically we didn't get any "late fees" for these aircrafts...
> US ripped us off!


Not in service....USN has retired their F-16Ns. Now they are Resting in Peace.


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## fatman17

hasnain0099 said:


> Not in service....USN has retired their F-16Ns. Now they are Resting in Peace.



they are part of USN 'agressor' squadron and very much active. if they were in-active, they would have not objected to their release to pakistan.

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## Windjammer




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## Windjammer



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## ANG

WikiLeaks on Shahbaz airbase: F-16s flew in, with guaranteed US presence at base &#8211; The Express Tribune

WikiLeaks on Shahbaz airbase: F-16s flew in, with guaranteed US presence at base
By Saba Imtiaz
Published: September 11, 2011
PM and PAF clarified that the base was under Pakistans control and denied the presence of American officers.

KARACHI: 
The Shahbaz airbase, which houses F-16 aircraft, is the subject of several US embassy cables released by WikiLeaks. One cable, dated October 6, 2009, makes note of the security requirements for the F-16s to be housed at the airbase.

According to the cable, The security notes also mandate a five-year, 24/7 US technology security presence for the F-16s. SAF/IA has determined that when fully in place, the US security presence should consist of 45 US personnel  40 at Shahbaz (five US military and 35 contractors), and five in Islamabad (two US military, one US Government civilian, two contractors). The estimated cost of the US security presence is $30 million per year, or $150 million for the full five-year period.

The F-16 aircraft are subject to security restrictions that the aircraft, armaments, related equipment and technical data need to be housed at a separate air force base which does not have non-US/non-Pakistani origin personnel and aircraft. A January 2009 cable explained this further, stating that there have been other US government concerns about illegal technology transfer relating to Pakistans co-production program with the JF-17 Chinese fighter aircraft.

The cables also note Pakistans difficulty in making payments for the security presence. According to the October cable, Pakistan also had to make upgrades and security enhancements to the airbase, which it estimated would cost $210 million.

The Shahbaz airbase in Jacobabad became the focus of agitation by Pakistani politicians during last years floods as allegations were leveled that the floodwater had been diverted to Balochistan to protect the base.

Additionally, rumours that the base was not being used for flood relief efforts because it was allegedly under US control further fueled the public ire.

Calls for investigation came from former prime minister Mir Zafrullah Jamali, and the government was forced to clarify.

Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) said in public statements that the base was under Pakistans control and denied that there were American officers stationed there.

Defence Minister Ahmed Mukhtar told the Senate in January 2010 that the base had been used for covert operations in Afghanistan two years ago but the Shamsi, Pasni and Shahbaz bases were not being used by the US.

Then-US ambassador to Pakistan Anne Patterson wrote in the cable that the Pakistan F-16 program  a package which includes new aircraft, Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) kits, and munitions  is the flagship symbol of our renewed, post-9/11 engagement with the Pakistani military. The success of the program is critical to demonstrating that the US is committed to a long-term relationship with Pakistan and is a reliable security partner. Pakistan is already using its existing F-16s in counter-insurgency operations in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, but the inability of those aircraft to execute precision targeting or to fly at night increases collateral damage and limits their effectiveness. New and MLU-ed F-16s and their munitions packages will significantly improve the PAFs precision and night strike capabilities.


Published in The Express Tribune, September 11th, 2011.


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## epinephrine

no body cares abt non sense of wikileaks now.secondly blk 52 has got nothing special in it.we are getting air crafts equipped with aesa,irst ,hmcs n longer ranged missiles.may be stealth in next decade.lets hope for the best.


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## soul hacker



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## VCheng

> WikiLeaks on Shahbaz airbase: F-16s flew in, with guaranteed US presence at base &#8211; The Express Tribune
> 
> WikiLeaks on Shahbaz airbase: F-16s flew in, with guaranteed US presence at base
> By Saba Imtiaz



Like Chogy has said before, these F-16s contain in them crucial and sensitive technologies that must be kept secret, and mechanisms to ensure that have been disclosed to, and accepted by, PAF and the Government of Pakistan.


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## Cool_Soldier

f16 bk52 technology is no more secret.It looks from report as F22 is housed in shahbaz base..lol


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## PakShaheen79

Problem is we the Pakistanis accepted the presence of the US personnel on our airbase. I think Chinese have access to technologies employed in F-22 / JSF. J-20 was a real shock for the Americans.


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## Windjammer

*Albeit, not a PAF machine, however, you seldom see shots of F-16 landing gear retraction cycle.*

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## SBD-3

PakShaheen79 said:


> Problem is we the Pakistanis accepted the presence of the US personnel on our airbase. I think Chinese have access to technologies employed in F-22 / JSF. J-20 was a real shock for the Americans.


I Think now Chinese connnection w r t Block-52 is rather insignificant, they have their 5th Gen and Block 4.5+ prototypes flying....I doubt Block 52 Tech would offer them something Significant.


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## Bratva

hasnain0099 said:


> I Think now Chinese connnection w r t Block-52 is rather insignificant, they have their 5th Gen and Block 4.5+ prototypes flying...*.I doubt Block 52 Tech would offer them something Significant*.




JHMS, Sniper Pods, ECM pods and systems integrated in F-16. Matured and time tested avionics. AMRAAMS JDAMS etc etc

---------- Post added at 02:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:31 PM ----------




hasnain0099 said:


> I Think now Chinese connnection w r t Block-52 is rather insignificant, they have their 5th Gen and Block 4.5+ prototypes flying...*.I doubt Block 52 Tech would offer them something Significant*.




JHMS, Sniper Pods, ECM pods and systems integrated in F-16. Matured and time tested avionics. AMRAAMS JDAMS etc etc


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## Windjammer



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## CallsignAlzaeem

Nice video,However a fantasy,I dont think PAF will ever face IAF in combat situation.

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## fatman17

the F-16 production lines may be coming to its end. with backorders for only 57 a/c (turkey & morroco), LM is frantically trying to seal potential orders from oman, iraq (18ea) and taiwan (66). however LM's efforts suffered a big blow when the US admn denied the supply of new C/D blk 52's to taiwan and istead offered a US$ 5.8B MLU offer for taiwan's existing A/B fleet. after 4,500 production examples, the F-16 story, one of the most successful modern fighter aircraft comes to an end by end 2013.


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> the F-16 production lines may be coming to its end. with backorders for only 57 a/c (turkey & morroco), LM is frantically trying to seal potential orders from oman, iraq (18ea) and taiwan (66). however LM's efforts suffered a big blow when the US admn denied the supply of new C/D blk 52's to taiwan and istead offered a US$ 5.8B MLU offer for taiwan's existing A/B fleet. after 4,500 production examples, the F-16 story, one of the most successful modern fighter aircraft comes to an end by end 2013.



Sir, what if Pakistan exercises it's option for a follow up batch of Block-52s, albeit a marginal number but should give a life line to LM.


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## Cool_Soldier

Current situation with US doesn't see any further procurement of F16 c/d.Even remaining 14, F16 are doubtful to be release to PAF.


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## epinephrine

a US senator has said that US should consider military action against pakistan so there r little chances of PAF getting more F-16s.it seems our final number will be 63 F-16s.wat abt the upgrades?in my opinion they will be stopped too.LM will not do the upgrade in a situation like this n turkey will also halt upgrading PAF F-16s.


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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> Sir, what if Pakistan exercises it's option for a follow up batch of Block-52s, albeit a marginal number but should give a life line to LM.



they would have to act quickly but in the current atmosphere it seems difficult.


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## PakShaheen79

I think only fighter coming out of LM would be F-35 in coming years. F-22 has been shelved already and F-16's order are not there. I think PAF can get additional F-16 if somehow Pak-US relations can crawl out of the pit. but still the probability is less and receding with every passing day.


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## unicorn

*A short Interview....*
27th Sep_2011

Since 1980, Brill has racked up more than 6,300 hours in the cockpit, making him the most experienced F-16 pilot in the world. He's called the 419th Fighter Wing home for more than 20 years, now serving as chief of safety, giving him keen insight into what's changed and what's stayed the same.

The advances in the weapons we carry have had the biggest impact on how we employ. Things like Night Vision Goggles and Data Link have enhanced our ability to fly in poor weather and at night, but the precision munitions have completely changed how we do business. With dumb bombs, we flew at low altitude or in packages of 20-30 aircraft. Now we fly as two-ships at medium altitude.

*How has F-16 pilot training changed as a result?*

_There is 10 times the amount of pre-mission study and planning. The missions and attack profiles are so complicated that guys will have to do hours of study, where before we only looked at an attack for a couple minutes. We used to fly with one or two pieces of paper that had all our mission data. Now we literally have books of data that we fly with._

*You've flown around the world, including seven tours in the desert. How have deployments changed, or stayed the same, in 30 years?*

_The deployments themselves haven't changed too much over the years. They are longer now, but the facilities and the workload remain similar. The big difference since 9/11 is the type of missions. Prior to Operations Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom, our missions were primarily airspace denial. In Operations Northern and Southern Watch there weren't any U.S. troops on the ground. Our role is critical now in that the guys with boots on the dirt are relying on us (pilots) for their survival. There is a lot of pressure to have your act together knowing Americans are down there depending on you._

*Speaking of changes, you've spent more time in the cockpit than any other F-16 pilot. How have you changed?*

_I think I've learned that change is inevitable. A lot of people dread change; I've seen so much that I almost welcome it._

*As we look forward to fifth-generation aircraft, what legacy will the F-16 leave?*

_The F-16 will be remembered has one of the best fighters ever produced. It will be in the same class as the P-51 Mustang. I was extremely lucky to be able to fly it for so many years. The 419th was on the leading edge the whole time. We had so many firsts it's impossible to credit it all to luck. The great people we have had and the hard work they put in made us one of the premier wings in the world._

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## Manticore



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## Imran Khan

Storm Force said:


> Great warplane both in looks and capability. PITY that PAF cant TRUST the USA in the future not to sanction them
> 
> 150 falcons could have been possible to protect pak skies rather than just 63


 
before 56 hours you open a thread that PAF should get out from falcons now and now this post

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## Shahzad Sultan

Imran Khan said:


> before 56 hours you open a thread that PAF should get out from falcons now and now this post



LOLz, good observation


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## zhenkexiao

leave this state of begging for F-16s. try to make your own internally produced planes for God's sakes. 

F-16 is old news. now they have F-35 Lightning II.


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## Patriot

zhenkexiao said:


> leave this state of begging for F-16s. try to make your own internally produced planes for God's sakes.
> 
> F-16 is old news. now they have F-35 Lightning II.


They - 1st World Nation and The only Super Power
Pakistan - Third World Country near bankruptcy.
Don't try to punch above your weight.

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## Imran Khan

zhenkexiao said:


> leave this state of begging for F-16s. try to make your own internally produced planes for God's sakes.
> 
> F-16 is old news. now they have F-35 Lightning II.




what if i say F-16 is not old and you need to upgrade yourself before post ? we are not discuss here cars we are talking abut fighter jets .lolz


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## zhenkexiao

Imran Khan said:


> what if i say F-16 is not old and you need to upgrade yourself before post ? we are not discuss here cars we are talking abut fighter jets .lolz



trust me. F16 is fourth gen. F22 and F35 are the 5th gen state of the art stealth capable fighters


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## Imran Khan

zhenkexiao said:


> trust me. F16 is fourth gen. F22 and F35 are the 5th gen state of the art stealth capable fighters



whats new i know this since last 15 years that f-16 is forth gen and raptor f-35 are fifth gen .so whats the issue ???????


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## zhenkexiao

Imran Khan said:


> whats new i know this since last 15 years that f-16 is forth gen and raptor f-35 are fifth gen .so whats the issue ???????



i think you missed the point completely. read up


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## isi admirer

We should try to get blk 52's going back to the stone age is not gona help us at all we are trying to come out of that era.


i think we dont need any more f 16s instead we have to pay attention on jf 17s block 2 and instead of f 16 blk52 we should force on fc 20 which is comparatively cheaper and its maintenance cost is also very reasonable


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## monitor

1 of 3 brand new PAF F-16's Block 52+ (serial# 10805) which landed at Lajes on their delivery flight to the Pakistan Air Force on June 22, 2010. [Picture courtesy: Leandro Rocha]


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## soul hacker



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## monitor



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## Abu Zolfiqar

a great day for PAF.

thank you for the post. this air battle took place over my ancestral village!


and God Bless and RIP to all those who embraced Shahadat for the sake of Pakistan. . .

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## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/130665-paf-firepower.html

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## Mani2020

*oct 6, 2011*

*Pakistani F-16s to get Electronic Warfare suit *

ITT has received a $49 million contract to supply pod-housed electronic warfare equipment for the Pakistan air force's Lockheed Martin F-16 fighters. The acquisition is being made using the US government's Foreign Military Sales mechanism.

The US manufacturer has described the system involved as being identical to the ALQ-131 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare system (AIDEWS) already integrated with the F-16 for the US Air Force and other international operators. 

ITT said it has delivered 134 systems so far from an order book of 160, spread across six export buyers.

Carried beneath the fuselage of an F-16, the AIDEWS pod will provide protection by detecting incoming radar-guided surface-to-air and air-to-air missiles.



Pakistan's F-16s To Get Electronic Warfare Suit ~ ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS


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## Mani2020

*Same news from another source*


*Pakistan's F-16s to get ITT electronic warfare kit*

*BY*: CRAIG HOYLE

ITT has received a $49 million contract to supply pod-housed electronic warfare equipment for the Pakistan air force's Lockheed Martin F-16 fighters. The acquisition is being made using the US government's Foreign Military Sales mechanism.

The US manufacturer has described the system involved as being identical to the ALQ-131 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare system (AIDEWS) already integrated with the F-16 for the US Air Force and other international operators.

ITT said it has delivered 134 systems so far from an order book of 160, spread across six export buyers.

Carried beneath the fuselage of an F-16, the AIDEWS pod will provide protection by detecting incoming radar-guided surface-to-air and air-to-air missiles.




*Source* :Pakistan's F-16s to get ITT electronic warfare kit

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## DANGER-ZONE

New F-16 Paintings by *Rehan Siraj*





*New born Falcon lifts off - The painting depicts a newly built F-16D block 52 for Pakistan taking off from Fort Worth for a check flight. [Illustration by Rehan Siraj]*





*Griffins at Red Flag - The painting depicts PAF F-16Bs from 9 Sqn ready to take from Nellis AFB for another sortie during Exercise Red Flag during July 2010. [Illustration by Rehan Siraj]*





*Inspired Alert 1997 - The painting depicts a PAF F-16B flying with a USN F-14D over the coastal area near the city of Karachi. [Illustration by Rehan Siraj]*

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## fatman17

^very nice!


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## Windjammer

*One thing I have noticed, where as the older F-16s displayed a low visibility national emblem, the Block-52s seem to incorporate both the low vis and full colour flags on the tail.*

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## fatman17

^yeah, never understood the rationale behind this!?


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## Last Hope

Windjammer said:


> *One thing I have noticed, where as the older F-16s displayed a low visibility national emblem, the Block-52s seem to incorporate both the low vis and full colour flags on the tail.*



Hello windjammer.

Let me clear some facts for you, fatman17 and others.

The PAF F-16 Block 52s are delivered to Pakistan.
But one of the F-16D with serial *10801* is kept by the US.

It is kept to experiment any changes that Pakistan Aeronautical Complex can do and how to counter it. The F-16 in the third picture is a F-16C at 5th Squadron located at Jacobabad. They are known as 'Falcons'. Those were probably printed after arrival to Pakistan, and commission in the Squadron. 

As for the first picture, it was from the Squadron 'Arrows' _(11 or 9, I cant remember it now)_. If you take greater look, Arrow's mark is made on it. Here is another picture to clarify your doubts:





The *85728 *and *85728* F-16s were participated in Izmir air show, which are from the 'Arrows' and were seen in PAF Drama 'Shahpar' from 1996.

The *85728* F-16 shot down Su-22 _(If I am not wrong, or else it was a drone)_

The *10801* F-16D Block 52 would be given the paint jobs on the tail, in Pakistan, *if* it ever comes to PAF.
Hope you are clarified.


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## fatman17

*But one of the F-16D with serial 10801 is kept by the US.

It is kept to experiment any changes that Pakistan Aeronautical Complex can do and how to counter it.*

sounds very strange!?


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## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> *But one of the F-16D with serial 10801 is kept by the US.
> 
> It is kept to experiment any changes that Pakistan Aeronautical Complex can do and how to counter it.*
> 
> sounds very strange!?



It indeed is. Looking at all the pictures, we will see USAF pilots and US Air Bases in the pictures.
It is supposed to be given to 5th Squad too. Not yet delivered.

Personally, I just call the 10801 a USAF aircraft with PAF colours on it


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## Windjammer

If that is the case, then ironically 801 was the very first Block-52 rolled out for the paf.


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## Last Hope

*Yes it was. JF-1.*


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## Cool_Soldier

Nice pictures and good development regarding F-16.
Yes. 17 block-52 were delivered out of 18, one was kept stating technical reason and not yet delivered.


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## Jango

but since we have paid for it, that is our property right, so I think the term US 'withholding it' is not right here, rather we have given them the permission to conduct some checks on them.

Or have they really withheld them?


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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> *but since we have paid for it, that is our property right, so I think the term US 'withholding it' is not right here, rather we have given them the permission to conduct some checks on them.
> *
> Or have they really withheld them?



One problem with US military hardware is, the list of 'terms of use' and 'strings attached'.
It is, partially, their property, even if Pakistan paid 40 Million Dollar per F-16.

They might claim for technical problems, but the fact I mentioned is the real one. _(Source: Insiders)_


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> One problem with US military hardware is, the list of *'terms of use' and 'strings attached'.*
> It is, partially, their property, even if Pakistan paid 40 Million Dollar per F-16.
> 
> They might claim for technical problems, but the fact I mentioned is the real one. _(Source: Insiders)_



Well, that is the biggest single hurdle in their equipment!


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## air marshal

*October 6, 1990: The US embargoes F-16 deliveries to Pakistan, and a total of 28 Pakistan F-16A/B block 15OCU aircraft are put in flyable hold storage in the Sonoran desert.*


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## monitor

*PAF Orders AIDEWS Electronic Countermeasure System for Its F-16s*
12:23 AM Qamar 






Pakistan Air Force has ordered Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System (AIDEWS) for the Pakistani Air Force F-16 C/D Block 52M and F-16 AM/BM.

Under this Foreign Military Sales contract worth $49 million ITT Corporation will provide a pod-variant version of the AIDEWS. 


Podded version of ITT's Advanced Integrated Defense Electronic Warfare System (AIDEWS) ALQ-211(V)4 has already been selected by the other international customers to equip their F-16 fighters 

The ALQ-211(V)4 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System (AIDEWS) is an advanced derivative of the ITT Electronic Systems' ALQ-211 Suite of Integrated RF Countermeasures (SIRFC).


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## fatman17

^my info on 10801 is that it is being 'patterned' for SEAD ops. thats all i can say.

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## waq

Our story of F-16s always reminds me of softwares.......despite paying a premium fee and agreeing to the terms of use,one becomes only a "licesensed user" rather than a owner.......even after 3 decades of induction of the F-16s,paf remains a "licensed user"........incase of block 52s it is true dat the yanks have transferred very advanced and sensitive tech,but there should have been a stipulation in the contract dat after a specified time,perhaps a maximum of ten years,the user will be able to customize as per his usage.........if paf cant adapt these planes to its usage,what is da purpose of these hi tech toys???????


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## Stealth

This is totally BS of our Airforce chief command and Airforce officers who agreed on this STRING Attach bullshit when we payed full its our right to deploy anywhere where we like... and if string attached better to go for something different rather then this aircraft. Its not only top state of the art aircraft which we go for again and again! about money... these Army and Airforce officers put half of commission money in their pockets rather to put own pockets spend on hardware we can easily afford whatever we like!


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Pakistan need to focus on our own JF17 Thunders as these are 100% customizable


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## Windjammer

*A rare HUD shot from a PAF F-16 taking out a terrorist stronghold.*


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## Manticore

precision strikes on taliban


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## Windjammer

ANTIBODY, do you have the footage, where an F-16 fires a Maverick into a moving Taliban vehicle, the video was taken from an accompanying aircraft. ??


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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> ^my info on 10801 is that it is being 'patterned' for SEAD ops. thats all i can say.



and what does 'patterning' consist of?


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## Last Hope

waq said:


> Our story of F-16s always reminds me of softwares.......despite paying a premium fee and agreeing to the terms of use,one becomes only a "licesensed user" rather than a owner.......even after 3 decades of induction of the F-16s,paf remains a "licensed user"........incase of block 52s it is true dat the yanks have transferred very advanced and sensitive tech,but there should have been a stipulation in the contract dat after a specified time,perhaps a maximum of ten years,the user will be able to customize as per his usage.........if paf cant adapt these planes to its usage,what is da purpose of these hi tech toys???????


Let's not forget, our F-16s cannot fight the USAF. It's the way programming is being done. In case of USAF F-16 approaching towards PAF F-16, it can lock on us its AMRAAM or IR Missile, but we cannot do that! 


Stealth said:


> This is totally BS of our Airforce chief command and Airforce officers who agreed on this STRING Attach bullshit when we payed full its our right to deploy anywhere where we like... and if string attached better to go for something different rather then this aircraft. Its not only top state of the art aircraft which we go for again and again! about money... these Army and Airforce officers put half of commission money in their pockets rather to put own pockets spend on hardware we can easily afford whatever we like!


Strings are attached not only to PAF but to other AFs as well. 


AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Pakistan need to focus on our own JF17 Thunders as these are 100% customizable


And 100% Dependable. At least those can shoot down F-16s of enemy.



Windjammer said:


> *A rare HUD shot from a PAF F-16 taking out a terrorist stronghold.*


 


ANTIBODY said:


> precision strikes on taliban


As per my sources inside, the recent attacks on the Taliban by our Vipers used JDAMs. Is this the same or what?


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## TaimiKhan

Windjammer said:


> *A rare HUD shot from a PAF F-16 taking out a terrorist stronghold.*



Most probably the image is from the laser targeting pod, either the Sniper XR or the Altis targeting pod. When the video came out, we did not had the Blk-52s, but may be the targeting pods were given and were able to work on the EDA trasferred F-16s or may be the Altis ones were used. 

There was some news of urgent delivery of some targeting pod to PAF in those days, most probably was the Sniper XR

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## Windjammer

The Maverick strike, I referred to in the earlier post can be briefly seen in the following video at about 0.15. 

First batch of three F-16 Block-52 jets customised to needs of Pakistan Air Force - YouTube

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## Dazzler

TaimiKhan said:


> Most probably the image is from the laser targeting pod, either the Sniper XR or the Altis targeting pod. When the video came out, we did not had the Blk-52s, but may be the targeting pods were given and were able to work on the EDA trasferred F-16s or may be the Altis ones were used.
> 
> There was some news of urgent delivery of some targeting pod to PAF in those days, most probably was the Sniper XR



Its from Atlis II

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## Last Hope

I thought it was testing of A-2-G missile from a F-16?


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## Windjammer

Last Hope said:


> I thought it was testing of A-2-G missile from a F-16?



No, a real battle footage by a hand held camera from an accompanying F-16.

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## Last Hope

Windjammer said:


> No, a real battle footage by a hand held camera from an accompanying F-16.


Not possible, sir!
If we look on the publishing of the news/clip and into the clip in details, we can observe to to be a F-16D (Blk 52).
And PAF didn't have Block 52 at the time. The footage was released with the dates of induction of F-16s in PAF (pre-delivery).

Needs a cross check I assume


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## Windjammer

Last Hope said:


> Not possible, sir!
> If we look on the publishing of the news/clip and into the clip in details, we can observe to to be a F-16D (Blk 52).
> And PAF didn't have Block 52 at the time. The footage was released with the dates of induction of F-16s in PAF (pre-delivery).
> 
> Needs a cross check I assume



Oh yaar, why do you read everything by the book, the clip of Block-52 is the old one alas the first F-16D for the PAF, but rest of the footage is in reference to the F-16 family like the emblems of No.9 and 11 squadrons. The Maverick strike purports to show how the PAF is successfully using this platform in WOT.

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## Manticore

Windjammer said:


> ANTIBODY, do you have the footage, where an F-16 fires a Maverick into a moving Taliban vehicle, the video was taken from an accompanying aircraft. ??



no , however i watched the video closely which you posted -- earlier i thought it was just any f16 , but when i saw closely looks our new f16s were hitting the targets , however looks like practice targets?

[i am sorry i clicked the edit botton and typed the answer within your post , instead of clicking the reply button , i am new to this moderation thingy]


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## evldth

nice birds brothers but cant be used if NATO attacks us.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


> *One thing I have noticed, where as the older F-16s displayed a low visibility national emblem, the Block-52s seem to incorporate both the low vis and full colour flags on the tail.*



All Block-52 would have been wearing Low visibility PAF Logos by now. 
The reason is that a D and two C birds were prepared for Squadron 5 re-equipping ceremony and for photo session with PAF Officials, that's why they had low visibility emblem. rest of the birds including 801 in USA had true green colour emblem. 
All Block-52 Images appeared on PAFwallpapers have only two or three birds wearing low visibility emblem, 
here's a ceremony image 




-----------------------------------------------------------
[Edit]
*Windjammer* Bro see 905 & 907 are painted with Sqn Logo and regular PAF low visibilty marking for the ceremony. Here's 907.





While you can see another C version with Green colour marking along with a D passing by mirage during the same ceremony, same day. 









you can see rest of the birds here. http://www.pafwallpapers.com/aircraft_gallery/F-16_Bk52_gallery.htm

i hope rest of the birds are painted Gray by now.

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## Windjammer

ANTIBODY said:


> no , however i watched the video closely which you posted -- earlier i thought it was just any f16 , but when i saw closely looks our new f16s were hitting the targets , however looks like practice targets?



I don't know, the video was released upon the arrival of the Block-52s, the shaky footage points to that it wasn't filmed under normal ( training) conditions....also note the targets are not stationery as would be the case in practice shootings. !! ??


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## PakShaheen79

@Windjamer: 

Sir in the clip where F-16 hitting a terrorist vehicle, I just noted that the terrain is desert like and not similar to one seen in SWAT or FATA. Is it really an authentic footage.

just carious.

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## Windjammer

PakShaheen79 said:


> @Windjamer:
> 
> Sir in the clip where F-16 hitting a terrorist vehicle, I just noted that the terrain is desert like and not similar to one seen in SWAT or FATA. Is it really an authentic footage.
> 
> just carious.



The aircraft in the footage seems like a PAF machine, as for the terrain, it did surprise me to find out that Olives are grown in and around Wanna.


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## Cool_Soldier

F-16 no doubt is good machine when specially comes in hands of PAF.Lets see what will bring J-10B when flyingover Pakistan sky


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## Last Hope

*Got a new one.*


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## Windjammer

CLIFTON, N.J., Oct. 10 (UPI) -- ITT Corp. has been awarded a U.S. Foreign Military Sales contract to provide a digital radio frequency memory-based jamming pod.

The $49 million FMS contract is for Pakistan.

The pod incorporates an identical hardware configuration to ITT's Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System, a proven, integrated digital receiver-based radar warning and jamming counter-measures system that can be used on fixed-wing aircraft.

The pod-mounted variant of AIDEWS will be fully qualified for F-16 flight under the contract and is the same form factor as ALQ-131 electronic countermeasures pods currently flying on U.S. Air Force and international F-16s.

"This pod-mounted system brings electronic warfare technology to our allies at much less expense," said Rich Sorelle, vice president of ITT's Integrated Electronic Warfare Systems business area.

"Since AIDEWS is based on our modular, scalable EW technology, future maintenance and upgrade costs for mixed F-16 aircraft fleets also will be lower because internal and external versions share the same components."

AIDEWS is built upon the proven ALQ-211 family of electronic warfare systems in use to support a broad range of U.S. and allied defense customers on many rotary-wing and fighter aircraft. These include versions of the NH-90, V-22, MH-47, MH-60, F-16 and several commercial platforms.

AIDEWS provides fighter pilots with situational awareness and protection against radar-based threats, including modern surface-to-air and air-to-air weapon systems.

AIDEWS is in full production with more than 160 systems under contract for six nations as part of ITT's F-16 Foreign Military Sales program. To date, 134 systems have been delivered.



Read more: Pakistan getting U.S. jamming pod - UPI.com

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## kursed

The AIDEWS AN/ALQ-211 V(9) POD [pdf]. - Can be fitted with a decoy launcher as well. Not sure, if it'll come equipped with DRFM though, since AIDEWS (as per published reports) on Block 52 C/Ds came without DRFM (Congress did not approve its sale).


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## PakShaheen79

Windjammer said:


> The aircraft in the footage seems like a PAF machine, as for the terrain, it did surprise me to find out that Olives are grown in and around Wanna.



ISPR has also produced a documentary with title "Wana Olives" as well. It is avavilable at ISPR website.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Pakistan, US ink defence agreement despite tension
Pakistan, US ink defence agreement despite tension | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

Pakistan, US ink defence agreement despite tension

Recent tension between Pakistan and the United States could not affect the defence treaties between the two countries. According to reports, Pakistan and US signed $49 million pact for the special chamber system of F-16 fighters. *The officials from the two countries have confirmed the agreement and said that more deals are expected in near future.*

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## air marshal

*Today In History: October 13, 2009: PAF accepts first F-16 from Peace Drive order.*


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## air marshal

*Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman standing in front of F-16 Block 52+ F-16D (serial# 10801) along PAF contingent at roll out ceremony of first PAF F-16 Block 52+ aircraft held at Lockheed Martin Aeronautics facility at Dallas - Forth Worth on October 13, 2009.*

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## Doctor09




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## soul hacker

ITT Supplies AIDEWS Pods for Pakistan F-16s






ITT will supply its AN/ALQ-211 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare system (AIDEWS) pod to Pakistan, which is upgrading older F-16s for commonality with newer Block 52 aircraft from Lockheed Martin that started delivering in 2010. ITT will provide 18 ALQ-211(v)9 pods, an upgrade over the previous ALQ-131 electronic countermeasures pod on the aircraft. The V9 pod provides digital radar warning, high-power jamming, threat geolocation and situational awareness, using line replaceable units interchangeable with LRUs from internal AIDEWS systems on international F-16s.
The Pakistan requirement is the first production order for the ALQ-211(v)9 pod. This pod-mounted system brings electronic warfare (EW) technology to our allies at much less expense, said Rich Sorelle, v-p of the ITT Integrated Electronic Warfare Systems business unit. Since AIDEWS is based on our modular, scalable EW technology, future maintenance and upgrade costs for mixed F-16 aircraft fleets also will be lower because internal and external versions share the same components.

The foreign military sale, contracted through Robins Air Force Base, Georgia, was authorized this summer, but only recently announced by ITT. The company also expected a letter of offer and acceptance to be signed with Oman, which last year requested 18 F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft with AIDEWS included among systems. AIDEWS is named as an optional electronic countermeasures pod for the upgrade of 145 F-16A/Bs operated by Taiwans air force, a possible sale made known to the U.S. Congress on September 21.

The sale of AIDEWS pods to Pakistan was requested in 2008. In a recent interview, ITT executives said the requirement helped launch the podded version of the ALQ-211 system. The contract win is huge, and I expect we would proliferate across the F-16 marketplace, as that upgrade is significant over the existing ALQ-131 pod that previously protected the aircraft, said Bob Ferrante, ITT Airborne and Electronic Attack division general manager. He said some 1,500 F-16s would be candidates for the V9 pod.

ITT said more than 160 internal AIDEWS systems are under contract for six countries as part of the companys FMS program. To date, 134 systems have been delivered.
ITT Supplies AIDEWS Pods for Pakistan F-16s | Aviation International News

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## [--Leo--]

KARACHI: Pakistan has bought the American ALQ-211 AIDEWS (Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite) pod for their F-16 fighters.

The ALQ-211 allows the aircraft to detect radar, jamming and laser signals hitting the aircraft, as well as the presence of chemical weapons. ALQ-211 also provides some jamming of its own, and assistance on where the signal is coming from, so the pilot can move the aircraft away from the threat, said a report published in U.S. magazine.

ALQ-211 is also installed in helicopters, but not as a pod. Rather, the individual components are installed in the helicopter where space is available.





Components of ALQ-211 are programmable, so that the system can quickly be updated for newly discovered enemy equipment. Pakistan will receive ALQ-211(V) 9 (version 9), which costs about $3.5 million per pod











Sources: Link 1 Other are Geotv ,thenews and many news channals in pakistan




Tuesday, October 25, 2011

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## Manticore

> 13. (S) Recommendation: We need to explain to the Pakistanis that the provision was in the LOA and many countries are subject to the same restrictions. The Pakistanis do not fully understand our requirements for sharing encrypted devices and need to be reassured that the aircraft will still fly without the cryptokeys. A briefing for Air Marshal Tanvir and/or his staff could resolve this misunderstanding.
> 
> Link-16





> 15. (S) Recommendation: The Joint Chiefs of Staff has approved the release; the decision now rests with the National Security Agency. We understand that the Defense Intelligence Agency has some concerns about potential technology transfer, and CENTCOM is working to address those concerns. This issue needs to be resolved quickly.
> 
> Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM)
> 
> -------------------------------------
> 
> 16. (S) Pakistan was previously cleared for separate elements of DRFM; now they need approval for the whole package. USAF supports immediate release, but the Defense Technology Security Administration appears to have concerns. SAF/IA is meeting this week with DTSA to review the issue.
> 
> 17. (C) Recommendation: This decision process needs to be accelerated.





> 19. (C) We suggest Washington agencies address these issues as a package with Tanvir. Of particular concern to the Pakistanis is the completion of the mid-life upgrades in a third country. This can be resolved by U.S. engagement that reduces Pakistan's costs and involves Pakistani technicians in the third-country effort.
> 
> PATTERSON



The Hindu : The India Cables / The Cables : 122429: Reassuring Pakistan on the F-16 sale

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## PakShaheen79

Isn't 18 AIDEWS systems is little less in number? after all PAF would be using nearly 60 F-16s overall. Is there any alternative exists?


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## Manticore

PakShaheen79 said:


> Isn't 18 AIDEWS systems is little less in number? after all PAF would be using nearly 60 F-16s overall. Is there any alternative exists?



i think (v)9 pods are mission specific moreover , Version-4 are in the new blk-52s internally aswell





> AN/ALQ-211(V)4
> 
> This version of the ALQ-211 utilizes advanced wideband and digital receivers to quickly and accurately detect and identify multiple, complex emitters when operating in today's high density threat environment. AIDEWS provides protection against radar based threats using a highly flexible, programmable technique generator that transmits deceptive countermeasure signals and coordinates use of chaff and flares. Standard on export F-16 Block 50/52 and ordered by Chile, Pakistan, Maroc, Oman, Poland.
> AN/ALQ-211(V)5
> 
> Norway selected the -211(V)5 variant for its NH90 helicopters.
> AN/ALQ-211(V)6
> 
> Integrated in the MH-47E Chinook.
> AN/ALQ-211(V)7
> 
> Integrated in the MH-60R.
> AN/ALQ-211(V)8
> 
> The AN/ALQ-211(V)8 variant is available for Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) providing ELINT, Electronic Support Measures (ESM) and targeting.
> AN/ALQ-211(V)9
> 
> Aka Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS). Pod mounted AN/ALQ-211 jammer with the same aerodynamic and mass properties as the AN/ALQ-131, for which it is aimed as a replacement. Unit price approx. $ 3.5 million (including support, spares, documentation). Ordered by Pakistan for its F-16A/B fleet.
> http://wiki.scramble.nl/index.php?title=ITT_AN/ALQ-211



http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...6-mlu-specifications-36-blk-52-prospects.html


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## PakShaheen79

^ they are not typical SAR or targeting pods these are EW systems actually inside a pod. So, how they can be described as mission specific. Pilots always need best ECM capabilities regardless of what kind of mission is this.


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## Major Sam

what benefit it will give to PAF?


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## soul hacker

usama waqas said:


> what benefit it will give to PAF?



The ALQ-211 allows the aircraft to detect radar, jamming and laser signals hitting the aircraft, as well as the presence of chemical weapons. ALQ-211 also provides some jamming of its own, and assistance on where the signal is coming from, so the pilot can move the aircraft away from the threat


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## Stealth

no one is fighting us (full scale war) from last 10 years.. without war we already destroy (because of our policies). These F16s cant help us anymore!


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## Imran Khan

Stealth said:


> no one is fighting us (full scale war) from last 10 years.. without war we already destroy (because of our policies). These F16s cant help us anymore!



please yaar kabhi to soch liya kero F-16 still save us and we sleep tight because no air raids on pakistan .

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## Stealth

Imran Khan said:


> please yaar kabhi to soch liya kero F-16 still save us and we sleep tight because no air raids on pakistan .



No Air raids ??? (recall your mind once again)

Everyday Drone 
OBL


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## Imran Khan

Stealth said:


> No Air raids ??? (recall your mind once again)
> 
> Everyday Drone
> OBL


 
when last time was happen on 126 cities of pakistan? OBL case is not simple we all know it


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## Last Hope

*Pakistan Air Force will spend $49 million on mid-life upgradation of its F-16 fleet with Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System (AIDEWS) under the Foreign Military Financing (FMF), according to defence sources.
*
The US had agreed in 2008 to provide FMF to Pakistan to perform mid-life updates for the existing F-16 fleet in response to Pakistan's concerns over threat from India.

It was also decided that this mid-life update for the F-16s could only be performed in a third country.
*Pakistan would pay $80 million to perform the updates in Turkey.*

The third country was selected as the US had expressed concerns about basing the F-16s in Pakistan due to concerns about potential technology transfer to China, sources said.

The US agreed as it was more interested in the use of F-16s by Pakistan for counter-terrorism purposes along the ****** border.
At present, the ITT Corporation (NYSE: ITT) has been awarded the contract to provide a pod-version of the AIDEWS.

The Corporation will supply its AN/ALQ-211 (AIDEWS) pod to Pakistan, which is upgrading older F-16s for commonality with newer Block 52 aircraft from Lockheed Martin that started delivering in 2010.

The sale of AIDEWS pods to Pakistan was requested in 2008.
*ITT will provide 18 ALQ-211(v) 9 pods, an upgrade over the previous ALQ-131 electronic countermeasures pod on the aircraft.
*
The V9 pod provides digital radar warning, high-power jamming, threat geolocation and situational awareness, using line replaceable units interchangeable with LRUs from internal AIDEWS systems on international F-16s.
The system provides fighter pilots with situational awareness and protection against radar-based threats, including modern surface-to-air and air-to-air weapon systems.

This export version of the pod incorporates the same hardware configuration from ITT's AIDEWS, currently flying with five international customers.
The new contract will provide for the flight qualification of the pod-mounted variant of AIDEWS for the F-16s.

AIDEWS has been selected to equip F-16 fighters operating with by six international air forces; ITT has already delivered 134 AIDEWS systems, out of 160 systems ordered.
The foreign military sale, contracted through Robins Air Force Base, Georgia, was authorised this summer, but only recently announced by ITT.

The company also expected a letter of offer and acceptance to be signed with Oman, which last year requested 18 F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft with AIDEWS included among systems.
*
AIDEWS is named as an optional electronic countermeasure pod for the upgrade of 145 F-16A/Bs operated by Taiwan's air force.

Some 1,500 F-16s would be candidates for the V9 pod.*

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## Zarvan

Stealth said:


> lol yani you agreed that when US will attack on Lahore Karachi or Islamabad then we consider attack on Pakistan lolz


Sir for your information even Chinese and Russian Radars can't detect Stealth Technology even most in USA Army didn't knew that USA has stealth Helicopters too

---------- Post added at 02:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 PM ----------




Stealth said:


> no one is fighting us (full scale war) from last 10 years.. without war we already destroy (because of our policies). These F16s cant help us anymore!


Sir because of those F-16 and Mirage and JF-17 India is not attacking you even though they wanted to attack after Mumbai Attacks


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## Dr. Strangelove

Zarvan said:


> Sir for your information even Chinese and Russian Radars can't detect Stealth Technology even most in USA Army didn't knew that USA has stealth Helicopters too



have you heard about Chechoslovakias Tamara anti-stealth radar


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## TOPGUN

Awsome news we need these forsure.. off topic a bit if some of you like please do check out my f-16 model in my profile pic's in which you will see i have the pod under the left wing


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## Donatello

wasm95 said:


> have you heard about Chechoslovakias Tamara anti-stealth radar


 


I think that was the Vera Radar, and if i remember correctly, we had quite a bit of discussion on it here at PDF.


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## Xracer

so now we are getting pods i think that is an indication that we will surely get more F16s.i don,t care some people dont like f16s but i love f16 no dought it is a lovely bird and the best 4gen fighter.i wish we get more f16s even we are getting j10bs or j11bs.
aur Thunder toh Thunder hi hy no match for Thunder


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## Last Hope



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## Last Hope

A PAF F-16C Block 52 shooting down IAF Su-30 MKI.

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## regular

Is it real pic or U just made it up within ure computer???....


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## monitor

regular said:


> Is it real pic or U just made it up within ure computer???....



Its a computer graphics


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## DANGER-ZONE

Last Hope said:


> A PAF F-16C Block 52 *shooting down* IAF Su-30 MKI.



Only shooting right now .. Down scene come later .. 
Well MKI posses such capability to dodge a BVRAAM but wonders does MKI pilot posses the same ? 


Nicely done by the way. work on smoke trial of aim-120 . bring it to the edge of picture.

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## TOPGUN

Guys any news on when we are going to receive the last blk 52 viper from the US? or is it with us?


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## BATMAN

Any news on the 4 F-16 undergoing MLU in US,perhaps since 2006.


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## Last Hope

TOPGUN said:


> Guys any news on when we are going to receive the last blk 52 viper from the US? or is it with us?



Oh do you mean *10801*.
I hate to say but we have to wait for ages. Last pictures of it was seen holding a GBU-25.

Anyways it's not 1 F-16 they have 
*They owe us 1 F-16D Blk 52
and 18 F-16C CFTified Blk 52*


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## SQ8

Last Hope said:


> Oh do you mean *10801*.
> I hate to say but we have to wait for ages. Last pictures of it was seen holding a GBU-25.
> 
> Anyways it's not 1 F-16 they have
> *They owe us 1 F-16D Blk 52
> and 18 F-16C CFTified Blk 52*



???


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## DANGER-ZONE

Last Hope said:


> Oh do you mean *10801*.
> I hate to say but we have to wait for ages. Last pictures of it was seen holding a *GBU-25*.


 GBU-24 Paveway III - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




> Anyways it's not 1 F-16 they have
> They owe us 1 F-16D Blk 52
> and * 18 F-16C CFTified Blk 52*



No plz no not the same nightmare again


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## MZUBAIR

*6 F16 A/B coming after MLU from Turkey and USA in DECEMBER 2011.
,remaining 26 will be upgraded at KAMRA*


32 Falcon STAR kits for original Peace Gate I aircraft, 35 MLU kits ordered, with 11 more MLU kits optional. 4 F-16A/B being upgraded in the U.S., delivery expected December 2011, 2 F-16A/B being upgraded at Turkish Aerospace Industries from February 2011 ...delivery expected December 2011, remaining aircraft to be upgraded at PAC Kamra by TAI personnel. 10 more MLU kits ordered on 29 July 2011 out of those 11 optional kits.

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## DANGER-ZONE

^ But any source of that news or just a scoring post.


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## Windjammer

Santro said:


> ???



I think what he means is, since the current batch is allegedly "Self secured", thus a replacement is due on supplier minus the kill switches.


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## Last Hope

I think I meant new assets


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## nomi007

very informative information about f-16s
i hope paf will increase the numbers to 150 as its plan


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## Windjammer

Last Hope said:


> I think I meant new assets





Last Hope said:


> Anyways it's not 1 F-16 they have
> *They owe us 1 F-16D Blk 52
> and 18 F-16C CFTified Blk 52*


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## Last Hope

Seems like you aren't getting it. Hope my 'location' helps


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## Imran Khan

Last Hope said:


> Seems like you aren't getting it. Hope my 'location' helps



bachy tum haumy pagal nhi bana sakty yaad rakhna /


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## Last Hope

Well. We will see once the official announcement is made!


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## Windjammer

Last Hope said:


> Seems like you aren't getting it. Hope my 'location' helps



And two of my tenants work for Survey of Pakistan.


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## Imran Khan

Last Hope said:


> Well. We will see once the official announcement is made!



ok dude that day i will be with you at we have 5 star dinner lolz

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## Dazzler

This is according to Sir P. Shamim. Seems we do have DRFM in ALQ-211 v9s, not in v4s though but at least we have it. 

"A pleasant surprise as it was indeed denied 6 years ago but now ITT shows Pakistan receiving it as a launch customer of this version. ( v)9 . Pakistan already has Version-4 in their new blk-52s. Version-4 is an internal system. This will be a valuable additions to our older F-16s. But I am confused about the number ordered".


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## Dazzler

More on this....

The ITT Corporation (NYSE: ITT) has been awarded a $49 million Foreign Military Sales contract to provide a pod-variant version of the Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System (AIDEWS) for the Pakistani Air Force F-16s. *The new pod will use a variant of the digital radio frequency memory (DRFM) -based electronic-countermeasure system based on the ALQ-211 Electronic Warfare (EW) jamming system employed with several types of rotary wing aircraft and the F-16 fighter. *The system provides fighter pilots with situational awareness and protection against radar-based threats, including modern surface-to-air and air-to-air weapon systems.

The podded version of AIDEWS will be delivered to the Pakistani Air Force. It will have the form factor of the ALQ-131 electronic countermeasures pod currently flying on U.S. Air Force and international F-16s. This export version of the pod incorporates the same hardware configuration from ITT&#8217;s AIDEWS, currently flying with five international customers. The new contract will provide for the flight qualification of the pod-mounted variant of AIDEWS for the F-16. AIDEWS has been selected to equip F-16 fighters operating with by six international air forces; ITT has already delivered 134 AIDEWS systems, out of 160 systems ordered.

ITT Develops a Podded Version of the AIDEWS Electronic Countermeasure System | Defense Update

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## VelocuR

F-16s Block 52 (18 only) for Pakistan is _now officially_ useless and garbages due to the failures protection of our sovereign, IFFs, and chips control. We shouldn't focus on these planes for our prides. 

F-16s for SALES, we no longer need a fake show !

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## Last Hope

The reason PAF *was* going _(dont know about current status)_ for 18 more F-16Cs was problems with SD-10 on J-10Bs and JF-17s. Now the problem is resolved and this is confirmed by Eagle Hannan. I just hope PAF cancels the order.

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## Imran Khan

Last Hope said:


> The reason PAF *was* going _(dont know about current status)_ for 18 more F-16Cs was problems with SD-10 on J-10Bs and JF-17s. Now the problem is resolved and this is confirmed by Eagle Hannan. I just hope PAF cancels the order.



after 10 hours you changed the track lolz


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## Last Hope

haha Imran Bhai last time I talked to my sources, they were in talks.
I was just hopping they cancel the deal.


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## Dazzler

current status is that PAF is not going for any more f-16s. All concentration is on next JFT batch and then, the FC-20. period.

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## BATMAN

Good existing F-16 can be used for pilot training and testing SD-10.

Those radio frequency jamers are also suspicious.. can always send few bytes extra.

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## VelocuR

nabil_05 said:


> current status is that PAF is not going for any more f-16s. All concentration is on next JFT batch and then, the FC-20. period.



Well-said bro. Please Pakistanis, my people I care the most. Remember, F-16s Block 52 (Made in America) is just a show only 18 delivered, we should not be enthusiastic about these planes, DRONES PREDATORS (Made in America) continue to kill us and more than 30,000 people died. Are we fooled cheerfully about Block 52 and pictures stuffs? 

Don't forget the day Pakistan received last delivery of this planes in March or April this year, next month US invaded to attack on Pakistan on OBL raid surprisingly.

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## razgriz19

whatever you guys say, but F-16s sure pose a great deterrence against India..

However we SHOULD stop (if) going for more!


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## DANGER-ZONE

nabil_05 said:


> current status is that PAF is not going for any more f-16s. All concentration is on next JFT batch and then, the FC-20. period.



Comment titled as "Statement of the year 2011"
SAY NO TO STRINGED FALCONS.


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## Imran Khan

say no for new but if USN release falcons we should get them and mlu them sir .


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## MZUBAIR

RaptorRX707 said:


> F-16s Block 52 (18 only) for Pakistan is _now officially_ useless and garbages due to the failures protection of our sovereign, IFFs, and chips control. We shouldn't focus on these planes for our prides.
> 
> F-16s for SALES, we no longer need a fake show !



PAF of F-16's, There are more coming in the form of JF-17, J-10 (Varient for PAF) in coming years.
Besides, we should not consider them junk they can play the role in the war as PAF wants....there is no breach of agreement between lockhed and PAF.
Besides, PAF would have more oppertunities to understand the technology.


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## Imran Khan

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF of F-16's, There are more coming in the form of JF-17, J-10 (Varient for PAF) in coming years.
> Besides, we should not consider them junk they can play the role in the war as PAF wants....there is no breach of agreement between lockhed and PAF.
> Besides, PAF would have more oppertunities to understand the technology.



no one damn to call them junk sir they are very nice and there role will be till next 20 years .its just another mirage of PAF .i hope so sir .

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## DANGER-ZONE

Imran Khan said:


> no one damn to call them junk sir they are very nice and there role will be till next 20 years .its just another mirage of PAF .i hope so sir .



Cant we people & PAF change our mentality of using refurbished garbage. No matter what those Falcons are what will they become after MLU but still their life has been reduced and not comparable to new one. 
when ever we buy any thing, its used i.e C-130, F-16, Mirage, IL-78, Saab-2000, Cobras, P-3C, Mi-8/17 ... Egrrrr


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## Imran Khan

danger-zone said:


> Cant we people & PAF change our mentality of using refurbished garbage. No matter what those Falcons are what will they become after MLU but still their life has been reduced and not comparable to new one.
> when ever we buy any thing, its used i.e C-130, F-16, Mirage, IL-78, Saab-2000, Cobras, P-3C, Mi-8/17 ... Egrrrr



we are not that much rich to buy 120 new fighters and pay for them .as soon as we realize it its better for us .our economy not allowed us to buy mass numbers .still we manage our capabilities and we have so much in hands we should think abut strength and capabilities these refurbished birds gives to us .we never buy them for proud but for our needs .if an refurbished fill our need then welcome for it .i have no problem .


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## ziaulislam

the saab and il-78 were negligibility used..

rest were usually free or too cheap...


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## Imran Khan

ziaulislam said:


> the saab and il-78 were negligibility used..
> 
> rest were usually free or too cheap...


SAAB-2000 is brand new sir


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## DANGER-ZONE

Imran Khan said:


> we are not that much rich to buy 120 new fighters and pay for them .as soon as we realize it its better for us .our economy not allowed us to buy mass numbers .still we manage our capabilities and we have so much in hands we should think abut strength and capabilities these refurbished birds gives to us .we never buy them for proud but for our needs .if an refurbished fill our need then welcome for it .i have no problem .



I know about my country's economy but i can add couples more NEW Thunder in my existing inventory instead of buying garbage and spending extra money on MLU. Relatively small quantity but reliable, expendable and accessible by any mean. 



Imran Khan said:


> SAAB-2000 is brand new sir



Saab 2000 (Platform of PAF Erieye) is used (refurbished) while Radar and related avionics are new.Try to search


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## regular

Yes! our F-16 are our future Mirages just for showoffs....


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## Imran Khan

regular said:


> Yes! our F-16 are our future Mirages just for showoffs....



so what you want dear war?


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## Last Hope

After the US leaves Afghanistan an this so called 'war on terror' ends, Pakistan wont be getting the spare parts of the Vipers. This means they will be parked in Hangers without ability of proper, decent and safe flying.

Let's not forget what was happening before WoT.


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## Imran Khan

Last Hope said:


> After the US leaves Afghanistan an this so called 'war on terror' ends, Pakistan wont be getting the spare parts of the Vipers. This means they will be parked in Hangers without ability of proper, decent and safe flying.
> 
> Let's not forget what was happening before WoT.



thats why PAF is getting more and more parts .you think PAF never learn from history .then you should not be senior member

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## Xracer

razgriz19 said:


> whatever you guys say, but F-16s sure pose a great deterrence against India..
> 
> However we SHOULD stop (if) going for more!


1000000% Right Bro


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## Luftwaffe

Imran Khan said:


> you think PAF never learn from history



No, good to see more F-16s in inventory but PAF never learned from the history.

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## Mani2020

self-deleted ;already posted


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## unicorn

PAF is doing the right thing. A little remainder for those who have objections about it... 

*During Soviet War*







*Immediately After the Soviet War*






*Conclusion*

We know what that it is...


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## mikkix

f-16 is for museum.....

---------- Post added at 02:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 AM ----------

this trash can not operate without the approval of US......

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## Peaceful Civilian

mikkix said:


> f-16 is for museum.....
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 AM ----------
> 
> this trash can not operate without the approval of US......


How you know this?? Any proof/source??


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## Last Hope

^^^ He is saying it right.... literally.


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## Peaceful Civilian

Now decide F16, J10, J11, or J17
Chengdu J-10
Performance
Maximum speed: Mach 2.2 at altitude,[28][44] Mach 1.2 at sea level[7]
g-limits: +9/-3 g (+88/-29 m/s², +290/-97 ft/s²[7])
Combat radius: 1600 km[45] with in-flight refueling
1100 km without in flight refueling[34] ()
Ferry range: 3200 km [34] ()
Service ceiling: 20,300 m [34] (66,601 ft [34][46])
Wing loading: 335 kg/m² (69 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.98 (with AL-31); 1.03 (with WS-10A)


F-16 Falcon
Performance
Maximum speed:
At sea level: Mach 1.2 (915 mph, 1,470 km/h)[44]
At altitude: Mach 2+ (1,500 mph, 2,410 km/h[1]) clean configuration
Combat radius: 340 mi (295 nmi, 550 km) on a hi-lo-hi mission with six 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs
Ferry range: 2,280 NM (2,620 mi, 4,220 km) with drop tanks
Service ceiling: 60,000+ ft (18,000+ m)
Rate of climb: 50,000 ft/min (254 m/s)
Wing loading: 88.3 lb/ft² (431 kg/m²)
Thrust/weight: 1.095



*Shenyang J-11Performance
Maximum speed: Mach 2.35 (2,500 km/h, 1,550 mph) at altitude
Range: 3,530 km (2,070 mi)
Service ceiling: 18,500 m (62,523 ft)
Rate of climb: 300 m/s[29] (64,000 ft/min)
Wing loading: 371.0 kg/m² (76 lb/ft²)

Jf17 Performance
Maximum speed: Mach 1.8[10][47] (1,191 knots, 2,205 km/h)
Combat radius: 1,352 km[16] (840 mi)
Ferry range: 3,480 km[131] (1,880 NM = 2,160 mi)
Service ceiling: 16,920 m[131] (55,500 ft)
Thrust/weight: 0.95 [10][16]*

I believe Pakistan should go for J11B or J11S if offered, because J11 have maximum speed of 2500Km/h more than F16 and latest Indian Su-30MKI(max speed 2,120 km/h).Speed is also important factor Its ok Pak have F16s, But i can't see,there is any
reason to buy More f16 B52+. Not bad to rely on Jf17Block-ii, J11 and J10B in future. In current 
scenario J10B is also awesome choice,Current F16s are still threat to india.


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## danger007

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Now decide F16, J10, J11, or J17
> Chengdu J-10
> Performance
> Maximum speed: Mach 2.2 at altitude,[28][44] Mach 1.2 at sea level[7]
> g-limits: +9/-3 g (+88/-29 m/s², +290/-97 ft/s²[7])
> Combat radius: 1600 km[45] with in-flight refueling
> 1100 km without in flight refueling[34] ()
> Ferry range: 3200 km [34] ()
> Service ceiling: 20,300 m [34] (66,601 ft [34][46])
> Wing loading: 335 kg/m² (69 lb/ft²)
> Thrust/weight: 0.98 (with AL-31); 1.03 (with WS-10A)
> 
> 
> F-16 Falcon
> Performance
> Maximum speed:
> At sea level: Mach 1.2 (915 mph, 1,470 km/h)[44]
> At altitude: Mach 2+ (1,500 mph, 2,410 km/h[1]) clean configuration
> Combat radius: 340 mi (295 nmi, 550 km) on a hi-lo-hi mission with six 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs
> Ferry range: 2,280 NM (2,620 mi, 4,220 km) with drop tanks
> Service ceiling: 60,000+ ft (18,000+ m)
> Rate of climb: 50,000 ft/min (254 m/s)
> Wing loading: 88.3 lb/ft² (431 kg/m²)
> Thrust/weight: 1.095
> 
> 
> 
> *Shenyang J-11Performance
> Maximum speed: Mach 2.35 (2,500 km/h, 1,550 mph) at altitude
> Range: 3,530 km (2,070 mi)
> Service ceiling: 18,500 m (62,523 ft)
> Rate of climb: 300 m/s[29] (64,000 ft/min)
> Wing loading: 371.0 kg/m² (76 lb/ft²)
> 
> Jf17 Performance
> Maximum speed: Mach 1.8[10][47] (1,191 knots, 2,205 km/h)
> Combat radius: 1,352 km[16] (840 mi)
> Ferry range: 3,480 km[131] (1,880 NM = 2,160 mi)
> Service ceiling: 16,920 m[131] (55,500 ft)
> Thrust/weight: 0.95 [10][16]*
> 
> I believe Pakistan should go for J11B or J11S if offered, because J11 have maximum speed of 2500Km/h more than F16 and latest Indian Su-30MKI(max speed 2,120 km/h).Speed is also important factor Its ok Pak have F16s, But i can't see,there is any
> reason to buy More f16 B52+. Not bad to rely on Jf17Block-ii, J11 and J10B in future. In current
> scenario J10B is also awesome choice,Current F16s are still thread to india.



thread??? ..


----------



## Peaceful Civilian

My Bad, its threat , Now happy?


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## danger007

Peaceful Civlian said:


> My Bad, its threat , Now happy?



How??? F-16 giving minimum deterrence to pakistan, how suppose it a threat to India.


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## Peaceful Civilian

*F-16 giving minimum deterrence to pakistan*
Where i said this??
I was talking about F-16 Block 52, i said there is no need to go for more, if we have Alternatives of this. 

*how suppose it a threat to India.*
F16 Block 52 is threat for every defense. This is great bird. People who ignores it or called it as trash,I believe, this is their 
perception. 
Even In US,The F-16 is scheduled to remain in service with the U.S. Air Force until 2025


----------



## Cool_Soldier

No doubt F-16 blk-52 is a good bird with bvr missiles.
we are preferring J10b due to sanction prone fighter and easy availability.


----------



## Manticore

Lockheed Martin is making progress with F-35 development, as its latest flight-test update shows, but its customers are grappling with the reality of a five-year delay in developing the aircraft, as a Congressional hearing last week made clear.

Because of the delays, the US Air Force will soon announce a program to extend the service life and upgrade the avionics of 300-350 Block 40/50 F-16s at a cost of $9.4 million per aircraft, Lt Gen Herbert Carlisle, deputy chief of staff for operations, plans and requirements, told Congress.

This will extend their airframe life to 10,000hr from 8,000hr, another eight years of service life keeping the F-16 on the front line until 2030. The life-extension could be expanded to up to 600 F-16s if there are further F-35 delays, but Carlisle said he did not believe the Air Force would have to go that far. USAF in the 2020s -- F-15s, F-16s ... and U-2s?


----------



## Storm Force

Great combat plane the block 52.

PAF needs more like 150 block 52s and not just 18

JFT is a decade away from being mature enough. combat ready enough and TRUSTED enough to do the SAME JOB as falcon 52


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## Last Hope

No we don't. Even if they are offered and is economically affordable, they will be nuisance for us, after 5-6 years. ^^^


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## danger007

Peaceful Civlian said:


> *F-16 giving minimum deterrence to pakistan*
> Where i said this??
> I was talking about F-16 Block 52, i said there is no need to go for more, if we have Alternatives of this.
> 
> *how suppose it a threat to India.*
> F16 Block 52 is threat for every defense. This is great bird. People who ignores it or called it as trash,I believe, this is their
> perception.
> Even In US,The F-16 is scheduled to remain in service with the U.S. Air Force until 2025



i know about block 52 well. as you are having 18 of them how suppose it a threat to IAF. mig-29, f-16 blk 52 almost both can give good competition. 18 is not enough ........


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## Peaceful Civilian

40 of them

---------- Post added at 02:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:28 AM ----------




danger007 said:


> i know about block 52 well. as you are having 18 of them how suppose it a threat to IAF. mig-29, f-16 blk 52 almost both can give good competition. 18 is not enough ........



42 F-16s are already in upgrade process in turkey, should be 62 in coming months.
FC-20 is indeed J-10B, I don't think in presence of j10B and JF17blockii, F-16 BLK52 has much of a 
chance >62.


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## Dazzler

danger007 said:


> i know about block 52 well. as you are having 18 of them how suppose it a threat to IAF. mig-29, f-16 blk 52 almost both can give good competition. 18 is not enough ........



IAF mig29 in current form (not upgraded to M, SMT, or other similar standard) is no match to paf blk 52 in terms of radar, weapons, avionics, EW and even range. try to be a bit sensible yar


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## soul hacker

sir nabil after mlu of over f16 fleet, will it be equal to indian mig 29 ang mirage 2000 interms of perfomance?


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## DESERT FIGHTER

It will be equal to blk 52+ minus the range!

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## S-A-B-E-R->

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Now decide F16, J10, J11, or J17
> Chengdu J-10
> Performance
> Maximum speed: Mach 2.2 at altitude,[28][44] Mach 1.2 at sea level[7]
> g-limits: +9/-3 g (+88/-29 m/s², +290/-97 ft/s²[7])
> Combat radius: 1600 km[45] with in-flight refueling
> 1100 km without in flight refueling[34] ()
> Ferry range: 3200 km [34] ()
> Service ceiling: 20,300 m [34] (66,601 ft [34][46])
> Wing loading: 335 kg/m² (69 lb/ft²)
> Thrust/weight: 0.98 (with AL-31); 1.03 (with WS-10A)
> 
> 
> F-16 Falcon
> Performance
> Maximum speed:
> At sea level: Mach 1.2 (915 mph, 1,470 km/h)[44]
> At altitude: Mach 2+ (1,500 mph, 2,410 km/h[1]) clean configuration
> Combat radius: 340 mi (295 nmi, 550 km) on a hi-lo-hi mission with six 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs
> Ferry range: 2,280 NM (2,620 mi, 4,220 km) with drop tanks
> Service ceiling: 60,000+ ft (18,000+ m)
> Rate of climb: 50,000 ft/min (254 m/s)
> Wing loading: 88.3 lb/ft² (431 kg/m²)
> Thrust/weight: 1.095
> 
> 
> 
> *Shenyang J-11Performance
> Maximum speed: Mach 2.35 (2,500 km/h, 1,550 mph) at altitude
> Range: 3,530 km (2,070 mi)
> Service ceiling: 18,500 m (62,523 ft)
> Rate of climb: 300 m/s[29] (64,000 ft/min)
> Wing loading: 371.0 kg/m² (76 lb/ft²)
> 
> Jf17 Performance
> Maximum speed: Mach 1.8[10][47] (1,191 knots, 2,205 km/h)
> Combat radius: 1,352 km[16] (840 mi)
> Ferry range: 3,480 km[131] (1,880 NM = 2,160 mi)
> Service ceiling: 16,920 m[131] (55,500 ft)
> Thrust/weight: 0.95 [10][16]*
> 
> I believe Pakistan should go for J11B or J11S if offered, because J11 have maximum speed of 2500Km/h more than F16 and latest Indian Su-30MKI(max speed 2,120 km/h).Speed is also important factor Its ok Pak have F16s, But i can't see,there is any
> reason to buy More f16 B52+. Not bad to rely on Jf17Block-ii, J11 and J10B in future. In current
> scenario J10B is also awesome choice,Current F16s are still threat to india.


 first of all SPEED is not the judging factorto which aircraft to buy second j series twin engin jet have been looked in to a countless times by PAF but we cant buy these goodies yet 1 we do not have the funds 2 PAF may not buy a jet india have experience with remembering its the same air frame more or less to SU 30 as the same thing happened whit F16 IN in MMRCA tender.
even if we jet these jets PAF in its current form will not use them they will be preffered for navy.
J 10b/FC 20 is already a good choice its nimble and loaded with tech with F16 it will do wonders and JF 17 is a growing sysetm and with good future and as we r not going to war any time soon i guss we shouls work slow and wise with these existing affordable programs.


----------



## Peaceful Civilian

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> first of all SPEED is not the judging factorto which aircraft to buy second j series twin engin jet have been looked in to a countless times by PAF but we cant buy these goodies yet 1 we do not have the funds 2 PAF may not buy a jet india have experience with remembering its the same air frame more or less to SU 30 as the same thing happened whit F16 IN in MMRCA tender.
> even if we jet these jets PAF in its current form will not use them they will be preffered for navy.
> J 10b/FC 20 is already a good choice its nimble and loaded with tech with F16 it will do wonders and JF 17 is a growing sysetm and with good future and as we r not going to war any time soon i guss we shouls work slow and wise with these existing affordable programs.


J11 have both single seat version and dual seat version.
J-11BH -A Naval version of the J-11B
where J-11B - A multirole version. Chinese officials commented that the J-11B could match the performance of the F-15SE Silent Eagle, Eurofighter Typhoon, and Su-35.


----------



## S-A-B-E-R->

Peaceful Civlian said:


> J11 have both single seat version and dual seat version.
> J-11BH -A Naval version of the J-11B
> where J-11B - A multirole version. Chinese officials commented that the J-11B could match the performance of the F-15SE Silent Eagle, Eurofighter Typhoon, and Su-35.


my frind i know all that u said above but having single or tandem seating does not affect the reasons i gave on accuiring a twin engin fighter.
Military Aviation
go to this link there have been countless discussions on similar topic and than when u think u r educated enough come and talk to me.


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## ahussains

Chinese dependency is better than American


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## regular

I guess we shold go for J10B's and JF-17 blockII...they shold be enough for our defence requirements....if really need J11B's could get based on its requirements.....


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

*Izmir - Turkey *

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## Shahzad Sultan

Awesome yaar, I love F-16


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## Manticore

warnesyworld Alan Warnes
Pak F-16s and F-7PGs attend ATLC in UAE. ''

Twitter


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## epinephrine

block 2 JFT,F-16s n J-10 will do the job for PAF quite effectively till 2020.after 2020 PAF must induct stealthy air crafts in order to keep pace with the rest of the world.J-11 doesn't fit well in this whole picture


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## Last Hope

Pakistan is working on stealth today. 
We have got a joint venture with China.

No need to think beyond 2020. We will have then by 2017.

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## regular

Last Hope said:


> Pakistan is working on stealth today.
> We have got a joint venture with China.
> 
> No need to think beyond 2020. We will have then by 2017.


Or probably even way before that if we needed.....


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## Last Hope

regular said:


> Or probably even way before that if we needed.....



You can get it in 2 years. All depends on funding.


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## isi admirer

it is stated that block 1 jft will retire after 50 pieces bt we have got about 48 bt we hadnt seen any block 2 prototype how its gona be possible that we wil suddenly induct another block without testing it


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## krash

isi admirer said:


> it is stated that block 1 jft will retire after 50 pieces bt we have got about 48 bt we hadnt seen any block 2 prototype how its gona be possible that we wil suddenly induct another block without testing it



We havent seen it does not mean that it is not being tested.


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## hatf IX

whats about MLU f-16 i heard pakistan received three from turkey . . .


----------



## monitor

*DUBAI: Northrop eyes Mideast F-16 AESA market*

Northrop Grumman sees significant opportunities for Active Electronic Scanned Array (AESA) radar upgrades for Lockheed Martin F-16 aircraft in both the UAE and the broader Middle East.

The US government is in discussions with the UAE to upgrade the APG-80 AESA radars installed in the country's fleet of about 80 F-16 Block 60s, said Skip Wagner, director of business development for global sensor solutions. He added that the USA has also discussed the possibility of providing APG-80s for a potential follow-on order of F-16 Block 60s.

*Speaking with Flight Daily News at the Northrop Grumman chalet, Wagner estimated that there is a broader market to upgrade the radars of 400-500 F-16s operated by regional air forces in countries such as Egypt, Oman, Pakistan, and Jordan.
*
The market is not yet ripe, however. The US air force has yet to announce an AESA upgrade for its F-16s. Either South Korea or Taiwan could be the first movers in the F-16 AESA upgrade segment. In both countries, Northrop is pitching its Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) and rival Raytheon its Raytheon Advanced Combat Radar (RACR).

The APG-80 operated by the UAE bears great similarity to the SABR. "Both are produced by the same people in the same factory," said Wagner.


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## monitor

hatf IX said:


> whats about MLU f-16 i heard pakistan received three from turkey . . .



*6 F16 A/B coming after MLU from Turkey and USA in DECEMBER 2011.
remaining 26 will be upgraded at KAMRA
*
32 Falcon STAR kits for original Peace Gate I aircraft, 35 MLU kits ordered, with 11 more MLU kits optional. *4 F-16A/B being upgraded in the U.S., delivery expected December 2011, 2 F-16A/B being upgraded at Turkish Aerospace Industries from February 2011 ...delivery expected December 2011*, remaining aircraft to be upgraded at PAC Kamra by TAI personnel. 10 more MLU kits ordered on 29 July 2011 out of those 11 optional kits.

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## eurofighter

i have 2 questions:
1)Does the block 52's have AESA? 
2)will the the MLU's have AESA too?


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## DANGER-ZONE

eurofighter said:


> i have 2 questions:
> 1)Does the block 52's have AESA?
> 2)will the the MLU's have AESA too?



"NO" for both.

we have taken APG-68-V9 radar instead, which is MSA not AESA. 
but we can consider SABR AESA for F-16, if we wish to extend F-16 life 10-15 years more then already planed.

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## epinephrine

PAF should have gone for aesa equipped F-16s right from the beginning of "peace drive 1".i cant understand the reason for buying a jet with apg 68 radar n planning to upgrade it to aesa standards.india is going for aesa upgrades for their su 30s,mig 29s n mirage 2000 n we have bought a brand new jet in 2010 without aesa radar


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## isi admirer

epinephrine said:


> PAF should have gone for aesa equipped F-16s right from the beginning of "peace drive 1".i cant understand the reason for buying a jet with apg 68 radar n planning to upgrade it to aesa standards.india is going for aesa upgrades for their su 30s,mig 29s n mirage 2000 n we have bought a brand new jet in 2010 without aesa radar



i think it was discussed by thinktank to amercans bt they refused for that bt now we are getting it from france for jft blk 2 i hope it would help US to update our f 16 with aesa if their air frame can exist for next 10 to 15 years......


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## regular

isi admirer said:


> i think it was discussed by thinktank to amercans bt they refused for that bt now we are getting it from france for jft blk 2 i hope it would help US to update our f 16 with aesa if their air frame can exist for next 10 to 15 years......


No sir! we not getting any AESA radar from France cuz they refused to give us so now China developed it for us far better than the French could have offered us....

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## Last Hope

Abaseen. What is wrong with you?
You are posting old stuff in every thread and double-posting everything.

This picture doesn't belong here. These are F-16B Block 15.


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## regular

Last Hope said:


> Abaseen. What is wrong with you?
> You are posting old stuff in every thread and double-posting everything.
> 
> This picture doesn't belong here. These are F-16B Block 15.


Sir! These kids trying to learn/do something. Thats why they forgot what to post and where to post......


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## isi admirer

regular said:


> No sir! we not getting any AESA radar from France cuz they refused to give us so now China developed it for us far better than the French could have offered us....



what about 4 billion deal for fitting avionics for 150 jft giving 26 million each unit for jft block 2 comming on next year july


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## epinephrine

france is not going to provide any thing for the thunder.most of the avionics n radar upgrades will be of chinese origin


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## untitled

Why not go for an Italian radar then ?


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## Imran Khan

varigeo said:


> Why not go for an Italian radar then ?



AESA verson of the Grifo S7?????? i really dont think its better option


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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> AESA verson of the Grifo S7?????? i really dont think its better option



western economies are in a 'tail-spin' esp in the EU. at some point commercial decisions will overtake political decisions. the JFT avionics/radar/missile order was for US$ 1.0B. they will think again!!! but at the moment the chinese radar and missile are doing just fine for the JFT - thank you!


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## rohailmalhi

fatman17 said:


> western economies are in a 'tail-spin' esp in the EU. at some point commercial decisions will overtake political decisions. the JFT avionics/radar/missile order was for US$ 1.0B. they will think again!!! but at the moment the chinese radar and missile are doing just fine for the JFT - thank you!


Even though they are in financial issue but they will for sure dictate their term of use .With all lot of sanction in a way that chinese dont get their hands on the tech.

Plus westerns are always very expensive , even if they give u sumthing for free they will sell u the spare part and give u service at a cost that fire will surely come out of ur a55.(sorry for using this lang but it happens all the time  ).

Like the survillance camera in F-16 's cost thousand of dollar to get repaired by LM or their service provider company , but the same same camera repair in Pakistan by Pakistani technicians cost few thousands............


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## fatman17

rohailmalhi said:


> Even though they are in financial issue but they will for sure dictate their term of use .With all lot of sanction in a way that chinese dont get their hands on the tech.
> 
> Plus westerns are always very expensive , even if they give u sumthing for free they will sell u the spare part and give u service at a cost that fire will surely come out of ur a55.(sorry for using this lang but it happens all the time  ).
> 
> Like the survillance camera in F-16 's cost thousand of dollar to get repaired by LM or their service provider company , but the same same camera repair in Pakistan by Pakistani technicians cost few thousands............



spares and training are part and parcel of any such agreement.


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## air marshal

*Today In History: November 30, 1991: PAF accepts first F-16 from Peace Gate III order, but the aircraft are embargoed.*


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## air marshal

*Aviation Art by Rehan Siraj*: _*SECONDS BEFORE TOUCH DOWN: The painting depicts an F-16 landing at a forward airbase during Operation Sentinel.*_

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## fatman17

air marshal said:


> *Aviation Art by Rehan Siraj*: _*SECONDS BEFORE TOUCH DOWN: The painting depicts an F-16 landing at a forward airbase during Operation Sentinel.*_



looks more like taking off!?


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## untitled

fatman17 said:


> looks more like taking off!?



Note the speed brakes on the tail plane. Deployed only during landing


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## fatman17

ACM Comments on Aviation week mag/blog:



Pakistan has a total of 63 F-16s, of which 45 are A/Bs and 18 are C/Ds. *Rao says *all the A/Bs are to undergo a mid-life upgrade and become C/D aircraft &#8220;close to block 50&#8221; standard. The first three A/Bs are now undergoing the upgrade at Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). &#8220;In 2013-2014 all of the A/Bs will have been upgraded to C/Ds.&#8221; He also says four other F-16s were sent to the U.S. for technical verification inspections so the upgrade kits could be developed that TAI will install.

In 2006 the U.S. Congress agreed to give Pakistan 28 F-16C/Ds under an excess-defense articles scheme. Pakistan recently received the first 14, but has yet to receive the others. *Rao says *it is unclear when these aircraft will arrive and it is part of the current negotiations.

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## soul hacker

fatman17 said:


> ACM Comments on Aviation week mag/blog:
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan has a total of 63 F-16s, of which 45 are A/Bs and 18 are C/Ds. *Rao says *all the A/Bs are to undergo a mid-life upgrade and become C/D aircraft &#8220;close to block 50&#8221; standard. The first three A/Bs are now undergoing the upgrade at Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). &#8220;In 2013-2014 all of the A/Bs will have been upgraded to C/Ds.&#8221; He also says four other F-16s were sent to the U.S. for technical verification inspections so the upgrade kits could be developed that TAI will install.
> 
> In 2006 the U.S. Congress agreed to give Pakistan 28 F-16C/Ds under an excess-defense articles scheme. Pakistan recently received the first 14, but has yet to receive the others. *Rao says *it is unclear when these aircraft will arrive and it is part of the current negotiations.



what does it mean?


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## TOPGUN

So then its not one viper they have held back it's actually four wow... lets see if we get them.

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## untitled

Were these four the ones which participated in Red Flag ?


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## soul hacker

Location:Izmir





most dashing pic ever of paf F-16

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## TOPGUN

pdf_shurtah said:


> Were these four the ones which participated in Red Flag ?



I don't think so...i think so there were A's & B models but again i could be wrong perhaps Fatman can shine some light on the question.


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## Last Hope

TOPGUN said:


> So then its not one viper they have held back it's actually four wow... lets see if we get them.


And I was only told of one! The 10801, which was the first F-16D or the first Block 52 for Pakistan!


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## ziaulislam

real question is whether we would receive the other 14 a/b models


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## SQ8

Last Hope said:


> And I was only told of one! The 10801, which was the first F-16D or the first Block 52 for Pakistan!



This would make a rather confusing statement..
There are already the 4 A/B's in the US for the MLU.. so if 14 of the 18 C/D's payed for by Pakistan have been delivered..then there are 8 PAF F-16's with the US??


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## Last Hope

Santro said:


> This would make a rather confusing statement..
> There are already the 4 A/B's in the US for the MLU.. so if 14 of the 18 C/D's payed for by Pakistan have been delivered..then there are 8 PAF F-16's with the US??



Apparently, yes. Which makes 11 of PAF's F-16s not operational. (3 in Turkey).


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## nomi007

too be continued


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## fatman17

bhai what is the confusion....
28 F-16A/B's were produced and embargoed....
14 were delivered which were in use with the USAF
14 were NOT delivered which are in use with the USN

now PK is requesting 14 F-16C/D from EDA stocks plus additional new F-16C/D (option of 18)

one F-16D is in US at LM but probably delivered after technical evaluation...
4 F-16A/B sent to US as pattern a/c for the MLU.....reportedly they will be delivered in Jan-2012. (as posted earlier)


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## Windjammer

A news item in AFM shows a PAF F-16B MLU 82603 conducting test flights at Fort Worth after the Mid-Life Upgrade. It's further stated that LM was awarded a contract to provide MLU kits for 35 existing PAF F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft, while a deal for a further ten as -yet undelivered aircraft was awarded in July 2011. TAI has been contracted to undertake the majority of these upgrades, but LM is doing the initial development and testing on the first aircraft.

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## SQ8

I wonder if they would be as happy doing the upgrades on these jets knowing the current conditions between the two nations.
Well, I guess such fallacies dont occur in large corporations such as LM.

FM.. that EDA C/D request was made in 2006. how come it did not come in the DSCA request.
Since the 28 C/D requested as EDA delivered would take the number of F-16's to??


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## TOPGUN

Just a a simple question guys how many new blk 52's is the US holding back from us?


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## epinephrine

i think thats another "bongi" by air chief


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## Last Hope

TOPGUN said:


> Just a a simple question guys how many new blk 52's is the US holding back from us?


*
One F-16D is confirmed.*
Three other F-16C/D? are unconfirmed as we just found it out yesterday in a statement posted in this thread, by Air Chief.


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## Edevelop

Last Hope said:


> *
> One F-16D is confirmed.*
> Three other F-16C/D? are unconfirmed as we just found it out yesterday in a statement posted in this thread, by Air Chief.



As always due to bad relations, that 1 or 3 other F-16s will be embargoed in Arizona or sold to USAF before getting delivered


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## Last Hope

...the one confirmed F-16D (Serial # 10801) is in USA for _'testing on the modifications and weapons PAF could possibly use'_ (Sources).

Here are two picture of the F-16 in USA.


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## fatman17

Santro said:


> I wonder if they would be as happy doing the upgrades on these jets knowing the current conditions between the two nations.
> Well, I guess such fallacies dont occur in large corporations such as LM.
> 
> FM.. that *EDA C/D request* was made in 2006. how come it did not come in the DSCA request.
> Since the 28 C/D requested as EDA delivered would take the number of F-16's to??



actually it was the 28 A/B a/c which was made in 2006. if all would have been delivered as promised, then the total would have looked like this

32 A/B current
28 A/B delivered
18 C/D delivered
78 total
since 1 attrition leaving 77 examples

under request then would have been
18 C/D

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## isi admirer

fatman17 said:


> actually it was the 28 A/B a/c which was made in 2006. if all would have been delivered as promised, then the total would have looked like this
> 
> 32 A/B current
> 28 A/B delivered
> 18 C/D delivered
> 78 total
> since 1 attrition leaving 77 examples
> 
> under request then would have been
> 18 C/D



why f editional 18 f16 while we can can get 36 fc 20 in almost same price


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## A1Kaid

Pakistan's F-16 program is vulnerable to foreign pressure, this is a major dislike I have with this F-16 program of PAF.

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## Imran Khan

from air forces monthly this month first pakistani MLU test flight sorry for quality lolz

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## DANGER-ZONE

Imran Khan said:


> from air forces monthly this month first pakistani MLU test flight sorry for quality lolz



abay chachay, scanner use ker loo bhai.


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## Imran Khan

danger-zone said:


> abay chachay, scanner use ker loo bhai.



scaner tab use kerty hai jab main airforces khareed lata main to hyper market gya tha utha ker pardh liya jf-17 ke 2 page or f-16 wali news ahahhaahhaha ye free ka maal hai

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## defunctOscar+

hi,
I was just reading your post mates, and I´m now confused  
please can you tell me

how many F 16´s are in Foreign for MLU or for other upgrading?
where?
What is the meaning of ¿MLU?
thanks,
Oscar.


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## Last Hope

Oscar, MLU stand for Mid-Life-Upgrade.
It is improving the fighter to a modern standard, be changing the radar/avionics/engine.

Pakistan has got 4 F-16s in US and 3 in Turkey for MLU.

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## defunctOscar+

^^ thank you very much Brother


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## DANGER-ZONE

[/COLOR]


Imran Khan said:


> scaner tab use kerty hai jab main airforces khareed lata main to hyper market gya tha utha ker pardh liya jf-17 ke 2 page or f-16 wali news ahahhaahhaha ye free ka maal hai



pure Pakistani-izm


----------



## Imran Khan

danger-zone said:


> Pakistani-izm
> 
> ---------- Post added at 03:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> pure Pakistani-izm



why should i waste my 10$ for this? i simply read it free  we have only 2 pages on this


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## fatman17

*F-16 Armament*

Weapons, Targeting/Navigation Pods, and external stores 


AGM-65 Maverick
Air-to-ground missile 

AGM-84 Harpoon
Anti-ship missile 

AIM-120 AMRAAM
Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile 

AIM-7 Sparrow
Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile 

AIM-9 Sidewinder
Short Range Air-to-Air Missile 

AN/AAQ-13 & AN/AAQ-14 LANTIRN
Navigation & Targeting Pod 

GBU-31 and GBU-38 JDAM
Joint Direct Attack Munition 

M61 A1 Vulcan
20mm gatling gun system 

Other Armament
US Tri-Service Designation System Electronic Equipment

US Tri-Service Designation System Guided Missiles

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## Najam Khan

fatman17 said:


> *F-16 Armament*
> 
> Weapons, Targeting/Navigation
> *AN/AAQ-13 & AN/AAQ-14 LANTIRN*
> Navigation & Targeting Pod
> 
> GBU-31 and *GBU-38 JDAM*
> Joint Direct Attack Munition


Sir is this information compiled by Janes? These selected deliveries were never made to us. We went for French TGP for F-16s in 80s, which can work with mirages too. Lantrin was not offered to us. Till Block30/32 all F-16s have Wide Angle Conventional (WAC) HUD, Block40/42 are the only configured for Lantrin, hence they have a special HUD know as Wide Angle Raster(WAR) HUD, latter has advance features for navigation and targeting at night. Block50/52/60 etc have WAC HUD.

...And were never received smaller diameter GBU-38 JDAM. We should have acquired that...Its lethal against small targets. They worked well in Iraq and Afghanistan...did less collateral damage as compare to other members of its family.

LANTRIN HUD









Conventional HUD

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## untitled

When did the Americans change their flight suits to light brown ?


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## Najam Khan

pdf_shurtah said:


> When did the American change their flight suits to light brown ?


Long time ago...two decades may be. Its only used during missions over desert/rugged terrain. After ejection, its difficult for enemy to spot the crew.

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## Mazharrafiq

How many F-16 PAF have this time?


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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day*

&#8220;I'm waiting to be told how cobras, hooks, or vectored thrust help in combat. They're great at air shows, but zero energy is a fighter pilot's nightmare. Shoot your opponent down and his number two will be on your tail thinking it's his birthday - a target hanging there in the sky with zero energy.&#8221; 

-- Ned Firth of Eurofighter at Farnborough '94

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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> *F-16 Armament*
> 
> Weapons, Targeting/Navigation Pods, and external stores
> 
> 
> AGM-65 Maverick
> Air-to-ground missile
> 
> AGM-84 Harpoon
> Anti-ship missile
> 
> AIM-120 AMRAAM
> Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile
> 
> AIM-7 Sparrow
> Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile
> 
> AIM-9 Sidewinder
> Short Range Air-to-Air Missile
> 
> AN/AAQ-13 & AN/AAQ-14 LANTIRN
> Navigation & Targeting Pod
> 
> GBU-31 and GBU-38 JDAM
> Joint Direct Attack Munition
> 
> M61 A1 Vulcan
> 20mm gatling gun system
> 
> Other Armament
> US Tri-Service Designation System Electronic Equipment
> 
> US Tri-Service Designation System Guided Missiles


You forgot to mention AGM-88 HARM and for long range Anti Radiation Attack HTS (HARM Targeting System)

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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> *Quote of the Day*
> 
> &#8220;I'm waiting to be told how cobras, hooks, or vectored thrust help in combat. They're great at air shows, but zero energy is a fighter pilot's nightmare. Shoot your opponent down and his number two will be on your tail thinking it's his birthday - a target hanging there in the sky with zero energy.&#8221;
> 
> -- Ned Firth of Eurofighter at Farnborough '94


Exactly!....However, while Cobra may be an impractical maneuver to perform, TVC does help in tighter turns. Yet many of my friends here get offended at the fact that While F-22 can benefit from TVC, it does have enormous extra thrust to make up for energy bleed resulting from this, Moreover, its not the pilot but the computer that is in charge of TVC in raptor making turns smoother and effective, two important things every other aircraft cant do even though it may have a TVC engine firing its back.


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> *Quote of the Day*
> 
> &#8220;I'm waiting to be told how cobras, hooks, or vectored thrust help in combat. They're great at air shows, but zero energy is a fighter pilot's nightmare. Shoot your opponent down and his number two will be on your tail thinking it's his birthday - a target hanging there in the sky with zero energy.&#8221;
> 
> -- Ned Firth of Eurofighter at Farnborough '94


The initial claim by the Russians that Cobra manoeuvre helps to break the missile lock proved to be highly exaggerated, you may force your pursuer to overshoot but as you said, out of energy and dangling in middle of the air will be a turkey shoot for anyone else out there.


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## Aamir Hussain

Which is usually the case -- the number two is always following the leader!!!


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## SBD-3

Windjammer said:


> The initial claim by the Russians that Cobra manoeuvre helps to break the missile lock proved to be highly exaggerated, you may force your pursuer to overshoot but as you said, out of energy and dangling in middle of the air will be a turkey shoot for anyone else out there.


Indeed, Considering the modern missiles can have multiple attempts before going out of energy and fuel. Cobra can defeat a missile in its first attempt perhaps, but may be a sitting duck for the same missile in second attempt.


----------



## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> *Quote of the Day*
> 
> &#8220;I'm waiting to be told how cobras, hooks, or vectored thrust help in combat. They're great at air shows, but zero energy is a fighter pilot's nightmare. Shoot your opponent down and his number two will be on your tail thinking it's his birthday - a target hanging there in the sky with zero energy.&#8221;
> 
> -- Ned Firth of Eurofighter at Farnborough '94



A rare case:

Flt Lt Sattar Alvi, now the rear-most in the formation, was still adjusting after the hard turn when he caught sight of two Mirage-IIICJ zooming into them from far below. With no way of warning the formation of the impending disaster, he instinctively decided to handle them alone. Peeling away from his formation, he turned hard into the Mirages so that one of them overshot. Against the other, he did a steep reversal dropping his speed literally to zero. (It takes some guts to let eight tons of metal hang up in unfriendly air!) The result was that within moments, the second Mirage filled his gunsight.

-Shahbaz over Golan.


----------



## MastanKhan

Last Hope said:


> A rare case:
> 
> Flt Lt Sattar Alvi, now the rear-most in the formation, was still adjusting after the hard turn when he caught sight of two Mirage-IIICJ zooming into them from far below. With no way of warning the formation of the impending disaster, he instinctively decided to handle them alone. Peeling away from his formation, he turned hard into the Mirages so that one of them overshot. Against the other, he did a steep reversal dropping his speed literally to zero. (It takes some guts to let eight tons of metal hang up in unfriendly air!) The result was that within moments, the second Mirage filled his gunsight.
> 
> -Shahbaz over Golan.



Sir,

This maneuver by Alvi had nothing to do with what the poster wanted to say in a sense---because he was at the tail end----. 

He was lucky that no one was following that batch of mirages---otherwise he would be the SITTING DUCK---.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Yar somebody buy The AFM and scan the F-16 MLU update picture n post it here.


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## Windjammer

danger-zone said:


> Yar somebody buy The AFM and scan the F-16 MLU update picture n post it here.



Imran Bahi made an effort, in any case apart from some visible patches and a fairing in front of the canopy nothing much visible.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


> Imran Bahi made an effort, in any case apart from some visible patches and a fairing in front of the canopy nothing much visible.



Thats why i asked somebody, forgot to exclude Imran out of them. 
i ve already seen this picture. thats why i want a clear one


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## Imran Khan

danger-zone said:


> Thats why i asked somebody, forgot to exclude Imran out of them.
> i ve already seen this picture. thats why i want a clear one



so you mean to say i have to go market again for you ?


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## DANGER-ZONE

Imran Khan said:


> so you mean to say i have to go market again for you ?



ya ... n this time, pick up a handy Scanner from electronic market and ask the owner that you wan to test the scanner on an AFM mag that placed in other shop, and wan a copy of that scan result before you finally make your mind to buy that scanner. 

in Simple words .... is dafa 2 logon ko ullo banana ho ga

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## Imran Khan

danger-zone said:


> ya ... n this time, pick up a handy Scanner from electronic market and ask the owner that you wan to test the scanner on an AFM mag that placed in other shop, and wan a copy of that scan result before you finally make your mind to buy that scanner.
> 
> in Simple words .... is dafa 2 logon ko ullo banana ho ga



this image i take from my 5mgpxl mobile camera .this time i should go with my sony cybershot 14mgpxl? what you say . BTW that was hyper super market 25km away from my apartment i am not going there anymore .

my bad i take it from close yaar 

or simply ask windi he has this month airforces monthly he shear with you in private

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## DANGER-ZONE

Imran Khan said:


> *this image i take from my 5mgpxl mobile camera* .this time i should go with my sony cybershot 14mgpxl? what you say . BTW that was hyper super market 25km away from my apartment i am not going there anymore .
> 
> my bad i take it from close yaar
> 
> or simply ask windi he has this month airforces monthly he shear with you in private



i guessed just right, you have captured it using 5mp Autofocus camera. if you look at your picture, your camera has not focused on image properly (close object) thats why it is bluer while if you see the bottom of mag other things placed far away are quite sharp. it was a bad luck. Perhaps you could take a few more shots but THANK YOU FOR CAPTURING IT FOR US.
we need to pin *windy* now i guess


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## air marshal

danger-zone said:


> Yar somebody buy The AFM and scan the F-16 MLU update picture n post it here.


Sent you in better resolution along JF-17 part. Check your mail box.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Self deleted


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## eurofighter

a bit off topic but can someone tell me where can i get a subscription of afm or even a place where i can buy a copy.i live in Islamabad btw.thank you


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## Imran Khan

air marshal said:


> Sent you in better resolution along JF-17 part. Check your mail box.


 
unfair unjustified zardari law ? why not me ?i need one 

---------- Post added at 06:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:05 PM ----------




eurofighter said:


> a bit off topic but can someone tell me where can i get a subscription of afm or even a place where i can buy a copy.i live in Islamabad btw.thank you



go any big bookshop or hyper market if you have any lolz

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## Major Sam

Imran Khan said:


> unfair unjustified zardari law ? why not me ?i need one
> 
> ---------- Post added at 06:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:05 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> go any big bookshop or hyper market if you have any lolz



thats very god ans ... IF U HAVE :p


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## air marshal

Imran Khan said:


> why not me ?i need one


Sent bhai.

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## Last Hope

Air Marshal. 

Why don't you share it with us over here?

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## CallsignAlzaeem

danger-zone said:


> Yar somebody buy The AFM and scan the F-16 MLU update picture n post it here.


 
There you go :

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## umair86pk

is there any article about the MLU


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## fatman17

umair86pk said:


> is there any article about the MLU



plenty - just search the forum - do some work man!


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## killerx

are all paf f16A/B right now updated to MLU ?


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## fatman17

killerx said:


> are all paf f16A/B right now updated to MLU ?



in process - so for 7-8 a/c undergoing MLU. for more info surf the thread


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## DANGER-ZONE

*Just as i thought*

I Reported it at *04-08-2010 05:03 AM*
http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...stan-f-16-discussions-2-a-131.html#post783618

MY POST


> 81-0911 / 84713 (cn 5G-13) On the landing roll after complete a test flight. Ex USAF 81-0911, *this F16A along with another one (F16B 82603) stayed at Lajes for 4 months and 3 days due some problems on the 82603 F16B engine*. They were even coded 'L J'-Lajes on the tail in the third month as a ground crew joke!!! *The 2 F16s have already leave Lajes inbound to the United States were they will serve as prototypes for the Pakistan Air Force F-16 MLU Program.*
> 
> *it happened long ago in 2008,i think these two might have done with MLU now.*



and now 





They have been doing on just two birds since 2008, DEAD SLOW. anyway now we will soon see *84713* after completing MLU.

*See more pictures of the same couple at LEJAS.*





















*Reference* 
Photo Search Results | Airliners.net

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## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> in process - so for 7-8 a/c undergoing MLU. for more info surf the thread


7. 

Four in US and three in Turkey.


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## air marshal

Last Hope said:


> Air Marshal.
> 
> Why don't you share it with us over here?


Mate, I have no issue to share or post AFM scanned pictures over here but MODs can tell you the reason.

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## DANGER-ZONE

air marshal said:


> Mate, I have no issue to share or post AFM scanned pictures over here but MODs can tell you the reason.



Easy .. There is no issue posting a single image or a couple. 
after all thanks alot for shearing ?

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## Major Sam

Btw one question after MLU upgrade , at which F16 they will become equal mean F 16 block 52 or 52++


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## VelocuR

usama waqas said:


> Btw one question after MLU upgrade , at which F16 they will become equal mean F 16 block 52 or 52++



No, it will become more like Block 40 _transformed from Block 15 (old)._



> Turkey is upgrading the F-16/A/B block aircrafts of Pakistan to Block 40 standard through the Mid-Life Update program.



Pakistan to Buy More F-16s And US to Gift a Frigate to Pakistani Navy - World Of Defense


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## Last Hope

Not exactly. It would be safe to say Block 40. But they will feature the stuff our Block 52s can.


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## Machoman

why we are spending money on this junk any more..............we should look at J-10.

By the way when we are getting those?


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## VelocuR

Last Hope said:


> Not exactly. It would be safe to say Block 40. But they will feature the stuff our Block 52s can.


 
Some of them. 



Machoman said:


> why we are spending money on this junk any more..............we should look at J-10.
> 
> By the way when we are getting those?



Well, we had 30 years excellent experiences in F-16s and great records. That's why it need to upgrade a bit. For J-10, JFT, it requires more time in disciplines and awareness.


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## Sapper

Machoman said:


> why we are spending money on this junk any more..............we should look at J-10.
> 
> By the way when we are getting those?



On the contrary, we are investing this money NOT to let these marvelous machines go to junk. Rather overhaul them, renew their airframe to almost Zero-Hour, retrofit them with BL-52 avionics and radar. The only drawback is new hardpoints and CFTs cannot be installed.

We have invested 1.5 billion USD to save our 5 billion USD assets from going to waste ... thats considered intelligent.

Regards,
Sapper

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## umair86pk

fatman17 said:


> plenty - just search the forum - do some work man!


i meant in any recent edition of a magazine


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## Storm Force

most air forces would think twice before committing to USA hardware as they are so prone to sanction you WHEN you need the F16 the most. 

I think india made a SMART move ignoring F16 & F18 and even F35 despite HUGE USA pressure to accept/buy USA weapons even offering license production.

Pakistanis must have great faith and real assurances on future servicability of their F16 fleet


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## Abu Zolfiqar

over 65 years after being atom-bombed by Americans, the Japs are inducting the F-35s to their ''air self defence force'' (just announced) 


the world is funny like that

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Storm Force said:


> Pakistanis must have great faith and real assurances on future servicability of their F16 fleet



while india was having the ability to mass induct new 4th gen fighters, we faced over a decade of sanctions.....even then we kept a majority of our fleet in fly-worthy, combat-ready and deployable-on-demand condition. 

your point is well taken though regardless, and that is why the initial order for 36 fresh new Block 50/52 aircrafts was scaled down to 18. The Americans themselves are aware that we are moving on towards lower cost ''DIY'' alternatives --being cautious not to sacrifice on PAF fleet technological edge

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## razgriz19

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> over 65 years after being atom-bombed by Americans, the Japs are inducting the F-35s to their ''air self defence force'' (just announced)
> 
> 
> the world is funny like that



maybe because it happened 65 years ago...
time changes everything. same can be said about Germany. european states are now looking towards germans for financial help

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## Abu Zolfiqar

they dont have a choice; America wont pocket the bill for Europe again (after 2 world wars) and why should they?

as for the second line of your post -- precisely said

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## CallsignAlzaeem

umair86pk said:


> i meant in any recent edition of a magazine



No that's all in this edition.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Sapper said:


> On the contrary, we are investing this money NOT to let these marvelous machines go to junk. Rather overhaul them, renew their airframe to almost Zero-Hour, retrofit them with BL-52 avionics and radar. *The only drawback is new hardpoints* and CFTs cannot be installed.
> 
> We have invested 1.5 billion USD to save our 5 billion USD assets from going to waste ... thats considered intelligent.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper



What hardpoints that cannot be added, can u elaborate ?


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## Sapper

danger-zone said:


> What hardpoints that cannot be added, can u elaborate ?



1. The F16-BL25 onwards were built with 8 wingStations + 1 centerLine + 2 chinPodStations. Older F16s were originally built with only 6 wingStations + 1 centerline. The MLU will give it 2 additional stations on Chin for pods, but not the additional fully capable wing stations.
2. The newly built F16-BL52 can carry more than 1-ton (2000lb) munition on innermost wing stations (station 4 & 6 ), but MLU will not have this capability. Thus the 600 gallon tanks cannot be carried by MLU aircrafts (as per my info).
3. The Conformal-Fuel-Tank capability will not be available for MLU aircrafts.
4. The PW-F100-229 cannot be installed. The MLUs will carry PW-F100-220E engine, which is still a very good engine but with reduced thrust than the 229 variant.
5. Most of the Avionics and Electronics suit will be the same (around 90%+ in my assumption) but still a few EW modifications might be lacking.

Regards,
Sapper

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## Last Hope

Sapper said:


> 1. The F16-BL25 onwards were built with 8 wingStations + 1 centerLine + 2 chinPodStations. Older F16s were originally built with only 6 wingStations + 1 centerline. The MLU will give it 2 additional stations on Chin for pods, but not the additional fully capable wing stations.
> 2. The newly built F16-BL52 can carry more than 1-ton (2000lb) munition on innermost wing stations (station 4 & 6 ), but MLU will not have this capability. *Thus the 600 gallon tanks cannot be carried by MLU aircrafts (as per my info).*
> 3. The Conformal-Fuel-Tank capability will not be available for MLU aircrafts.
> 4. The PW-F100-229 cannot be installed. The MLUs will carry PW-F100-220E engine, which is still a very good engine but with reduced thrust than the 229 variant.
> 5. Most of the Avionics and Electronics suit will be the same (around 90%+ in my assumption) but still a few EW modifications might be lacking.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper


 
The drop tanks can be carried. Without them, it's pointless.


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## Sapper

Last Hope said:


> The drop tanks can be carried. Without them, it's pointless.


 
Agreed. Just re-checked and confirmed. 600gal tanks can be carried on MLU F16s.

Source : F-16 MLU Manual Part 2

Sorry for the mistake. Apologies to everyone.

Regards,
Sapper


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## SBD-3

F-16s are on a role!, Iraq has placed a follow on order for 18 more F-16s after the original order. Oman has placed order for 12 F-16s and Philippines Air Force has also chalked out the requirement of F-16s from EDA stock. Will post details in a while


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## Chogy

History will show the F-16 to probably be the most successful manned jet fighter made... a combination of capability, maintainability, and cost.

It'll be in tough competition with the MiG-21 for that honor. It's not numbers alone, it's the platform taken as a whole.

They'll be flying probably well into 2030's and maybe beyond. Kind of like the B-52 with a service life of 60+ years. That's like seeing Sopwith Camels fighting in the Vietnam war.


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## SQ8

Chogy said:


> History will show the F-16 to probably be the most successful manned jet fighter made... a combination of capability, maintainability, and cost.
> 
> It'll be in tough competition with the MiG-21 for that honor. It's not numbers alone, it's the platform taken as a whole.
> 
> They'll be flying probably well into 2030's and maybe beyond. Kind of like the B-52 with a service life of 60+ years. That's like seeing Sopwith Camels fighting in the Vietnam war.



Had political considerations not come into the selection for the F-XX project.. it would have lived on even further in the guise of a XL as the E model.


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## rockstarIN

Chogy said:


> History will show the F-16 to probably be the most successful manned jet fighter made... a combination of capability, maintainability, and cost.
> 
> It'll be in tough competition with the MiG-21 for that honor. It's not numbers alone, it's the platform taken as a whole.
> 
> They'll be flying probably well into 2030's and maybe beyond. Kind of like the B-52 with a service life of 60+ years. That's like seeing Sopwith Camels fighting in the Vietnam war.



After Mig-21, Soviets hardly went for single engined planes and the Migs were never upgraded like F-16s..


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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> After Mig-21, *Soviets hardly went *for single engined planes and the Migs were never upgraded like F-16s..



?? expected a more knowledgeable broad sweep by you.
Have you forgotten the numerous Mig-23's and 27's.. or the fitter series..??


The mig-21.. from its original guise as the day short range C model.. 





To the IAF Bison




Still based on the original airframe like the F-16.. yet very different from its base point.

So that statement does not hold valid in the context you seem to be implying.


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## Windjammer

rockstar said:


> After Mig-21, Soviets hardly went for single engined planes and the Migs were never upgraded like F-16s..



Actually the MiG-23/27 and the likes of SU-17/22 are all single engined machines and the Lancer/Bison designate are major upgrades of the MiG-21 series.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

will the USAF still be flying them in 2030s? I'm not sure.

over a period of time, F-35 will be mass inducted. Maybe not all Falcons will be phased out by 2030, but i'm sure there roll will diminish as far as USAF is concerned.


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## SBD-3

Iraq's Requirements:
*-120 sets of JHMCS
*-20 CFTs
*-24 PW F-100PW-229 or GE F110GE-129 High performance engines
*-120 LAU 129/A Rail Launchers
*-24 AN/APG 68 (V)9 Radar Sets
*-19 M61 Vulcan Cannons and 40000 rounds
*-100 AIM-9L/M-8/9 Sidewinder Missiles
*-150 AIM-7M F1-11 Sparrow Missiles (Why not AMRAAMs?)
*-50 AGM-65G/D/H/K Mavrick Missiles with LAU-117 launchers
*-200 500lb GBU-12 LGBs
*-50 each of 2000lb GBU-10 and GBU-24 LGBs
*-230 MK84 2000lb GPBs and 800 MK82 500lb GPBs
*-20 each of AN\AAQ-33 Sniper and AN\AAQ-28 litening pods.
*-4 F-9120 Advanced Recon System or DB-110 Recon pods.
*-22 AN\ALQ211 AIDEWS or ACES including AN/ALQ-187 EWS plus AN/ALR-92 RWR
*-22 AN\ALE-47 Electronic Countermeasures dispensing systems

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## rockstarIN

Santro said:


> ?? expected a more knowledgeable broad sweep by you.
> Have you forgotten the numerous Mig-23's and 27's.. or the fitter series..??
> 
> 
> The mig-21.. from its original guise as the day short range C model..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To the IAF Bison
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still based on the original airframe like the F-16.. yet very different from its base point.
> 
> So that statement does not hold valid in the context you seem to be implying.



Opps..I did not mean they did not go for single engine at all. Ans Migs were upgraded but not at the 'level' of F-16s. Thats what I Meant..


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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> Opps..I did not mean they did not go for single engine at all. Ans Migs were upgraded but not at the 'level' of F-16s. Thats what I Meant..



The migs could not be upgraded to the level of F-16's as they are almost 25 years apart in design..
but the relative "block 60" of the mig-21 is what the IAF operates or the 21-98 offered by Russia.


----------



## BATMAN

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> will the USAF still be flying them in 2030s? I'm not sure.
> 
> over a period of time, F-35 will be mass inducted. Maybe not all Falcons will be phased out by 2030, but i'm sure there roll will diminish as far as USAF is concerned.



IMO.. US is slowly shifting towards UAV and in 2030 i don't expect any sort of manned fighter jets in US inventory.

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## rockstarIN

BATMAN said:


> IMO.. US is slowly shifting towards UAV and in 2030 i don't expect any sort of manned fighter jets in US inventory.



More nations are getting the capability of Satellite kills, communication/control with the unmanned jets will be difficult IMO not to mention the jamming capabilities.


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## Pfpilot

BATMAN said:


> IMO.. US is slowly shifting towards UAV and in 2030 i don't expect any sort of manned fighter jets in US inventory.


 
I don't see that happening simply because the US faces no real foe...the delay in the f-35 is analogous to a wider US movement towards a slower process of induction of newer machines, whether they maybe in the navy, air force, or army. Without the sense of urgency that comes with impending nuclear disaster, the Americans have no real need to fast track UAV development.
It is almost 2012 and we haven't even seen a full squadron brought up of f-35s...assuming they are available in large numbers by 2020, it is highly unlikely the USAF and USN will replace these ultra expensive jets within the decade.


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## SQ8

Alright folks.. lets return to the F-16..
There was a rumor about a buy of "golden" F-16's...by the USAF as a fallback till the F-35 came of age.


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## rockstarIN

Santro said:


> Alright folks.. lets return to the F-16..
> There was a rumor about a buy of "golden" F-16's...by the USAF as a fallback till the F-35 came of age.



We are talking now 'post f-16', who knows in future there will be unmanned f-16s?


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## SQ8

rockstar said:


> We are talking now 'post f-16', who knows in future there will be unmanned f-16s?



With over 200 excess airframes currently available that are NOT being converted to drones..
Who knows.


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## Sapper

rockstar said:


> We are talking now 'post f-16', who knows in future there will be unmanned f-16s?



Well... There arleady is an unmanned F-16, called QF-16 target drone. Look it up.

Regards,
Sapper

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## razgriz19

BATMAN said:


> IMO.. US is slowly shifting towards UAV and in 2030 i don't expect any sort of manned fighter jets in US inventory.



they may replace ground attack and CAS air crafts with UCAVs, but air superiority fighters are here to stay for another 40 years or so or maybe more.

---------- Post added at 12:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:06 AM ----------




Santro said:


> Alright folks.. lets return to the F-16..
> There was a rumor about a buy of "golden" F-16's...by the USAF as a fallback till the F-35 came of age.



i heard they were planning to upgrade them to blk 60 as a stop gap measure


----------



## MZUBAIR

What abt our F-16 which were in MLU process at Turkey and USA


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## fatman17

MZUBAIR said:


> What abt our F-16 which were in MLU process at Turkey and USA



the MLU is in progress - it will take some time!


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Block-52 at Lejas

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## Najam Khan

*ATLIS on the F-16*
Posted on December 25, 2011 by Najam Khan

The Thomson-CSF ATLIS II (Automatic Tracking and Laser Integration System) is a French laser/electro-optical targeting pod developed in late 1970s. Initially it was developed for French Air Force SEPECAT Jaguar and Mirage-2000 aircraft. Later it was integrated with Mirage F-1 and US-built F-16 aircraft.

ATLIS-II is a laser targeting system which includes a laser spot tracker/range finder bore-sighted with a television camera. It also has a video tape recorder and sensors for steering optical line of sight.
ATLIS-II has a dual mode(Visible/Infra-Red) TV tracker and laser spot tracking system, which provides battlefield assessment and point tracking features to the operator. Information about low-signature moving and stationary targets can be obtained by it as well.

The pilot uses cross-hairs to mark a target, which is automatically locked by the laser-designator system. The laser beam is focused on it marking any movement of the target. Later when laser guided bombs are dropped, they are directed to the same target using inertial-guidance system. ATLIS decreases the pilots workload by enabling him to attack the targets of opportunity.

In 1985, Pakistan Air Force selected ATLIS-II for its F-16 aircraft, making it the first non-European operator of this system. ATLIS-II pod is carried on the 5L intake station on the F-16.
First public demonstration of dropping Laser Guided Bombs (LGB)with ALTIS-II was seen in Exercise High Mark 1989. Since then, ALTIS-II has been a key element of PAF s precision strike capability. Over the years precision targeting has been a distinct phenomenon over-viewed regularly in PAF s operational exercises.

In the recent PAF operations in Global War on Terrorism, precision targeting was a game changer. During close air support missions for Pak Army from late 2008 to mid-2009, PAF conducted more than 5,500 bombing missions and dropped 10,600 bombs in northwest tribal areas. More than 80% of the dropped munitions were LGB.PAF achieved direct hits at the militant hideouts without doing collateral damage to the civilian population.

By using laser spot tracker, the accuracy level of LGBs was increased. Without it, the pilot has to visually confirm the target or real time information has to be provided by UAV or ground forces with laser spot tracker. The latter not available to Pakistan Army, all reliance was on the training and skills of F-16 pilots/crew. During the debrief ATLIS footage was analyzed and all short comings were addressed.

ATLIS-II allows the sharing of target information among multiple aircraft participating in a mission.In aforementioned operations modified C-130E with Star Safire III forward-looking infrared sensor was used to illuminate the targets to the F-16s.The precision strikes in such time-boxed environment proved the mettle of Pakistani air crew.
Later in Exercises Red Flag(2010-4) and Green Flag (2010-9) six F-16B of No.9 Sqn participated in interdiction role. These realistic combat training exercises saw PAF F-16s delivering using ATLIS-II as the primary weapon to delivering LGBs.
Today after 26 years of service, ATLIS is still the standard weapon of Pakistani falcons. Even after Mid Life Update (MLU) of F-16 A/B fleet of PAF, ATLIS remain mainstay weapon in PAF.




ATLIS equipped No.11 Sqn F-16B deploying air brakes after a successful training mission. Note the empty multi-ejector racks, used to carry LGBs.




A F-16 taking off with one GBU-12 LGB and ATLIS pod for a training mission.




No.9 Sqn F-16B during Exercises Red Flag 2010-4. ATLIS-II pod is visible on 5L intake station.

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## Last Hope

*
One of the best unofficial videos of any PAF fighter.*

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## TOPGUN

Last Hope said:


> *
> One of the best unofficial videos of any PAF fighter.*



Love this video seen it several times thx for sharing once more its just not enough no matter how many times i see it


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## Abu Zolfiqar

F-16C Blk 30 of the USAF

cool cockpit/startup video (click on the actual link; embedding not allowed)

F-16 Engine run, Iraq - YouTube

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## anathema

Last Hope said:


> *
> One of the best unofficial videos of any PAF fighter.*



Cool vid...bubble canopy is amazing.


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## nomi007

kindly some tell about the progress of getting Norwegian f-16
because Pakistan was interested in them

---------- Post added at 12:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 PM ----------






Norway have more than 60 f-16 all are mlu upgraded


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## nomi007




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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> kindly some tell about the progress of getting Norwegian f-16
> because Pakistan was interested in them
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Norway have more than 60 f-16 all are mlu upgraded



no further news AFAIK!


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## Windjammer

I thought it were the Belgian aircraft Pakistan was keen to purchase....they have since been transferred to Jordan.


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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> I thought it were the Belgian aircraft Pakistan was keen to purchase....they have since been transferred to Jordan.



this string started when the Norwegian Def/minister visited PK and our Def/min stated that PK would be interested in surplus NAF F-16s.....since then no news!

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## Najam Khan

nomi007 said:


> kindly some tell about the progress of getting Norwegian f-16
> because Pakistan was interested in them
> 
> Norway have more than 60 f-16 all are mlu upgraded




This rumour about PAF getting MLU'ed F-16s from RoNAF was initiated by those people who like to predict dozen things on one story...at least one of them makes it to the target..its the same people who still think that PAF is interested in additional 18 52+ aircraft.

Now the flaw in this logic is that RoNAF opearates some 50+ F-16A/B MLU3 aircraft, which were MLU'ed in 2002. Service life of F-16 is 8000hrs and RonAF is one of those air forces which have very rigorous flying. They have very dissimlar rules/SOPs as compare to other European air forces. Their Quick Response Action team (QRA) has two jets at standby at all times (to intercept any Russian aircraft). For these guys flying never stops until wind is not over 45kts...flying in most adverse conditions is their routine.

Even if PAF makes such move (for spares only), then buying such poorly used (but maintained accordingly) machines would never give a good run for their money. PAF makes very cost effective and long-term moves...acquistion of 50 Mirages from Libya at throw-away costs and refurbished C-130s and IL-78s are similar examples.

Another weak point in this rumour was that F-35 isn't ready yet, RonAF will never phase out its existing F-16 fleet without getting their hands on its replacement. RAAF made clever move and went for more Super Hornets.

---------- Post added at 01:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:36 PM ----------




nomi007 said:


>


Nice photo BTW...at pylon 3 and 7 its carrying two buckets used to carry BDU-33 practise bombs and 'Willy Pete' rockets used to mark targets on ground for air-to-ground practise.

Thats from the inside.

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## SQ8

NAjAM Khan said:


> Nice photo BTW...at pylon 3 and 7 its carrying two buckets used to carry BDU-33 practise bombs and 'Willy Pete' rockets used to mark targets on ground for air-to-ground practise.



Nice observation janab.. with the CATIM-9's on it. 
Interesting that our jets have to stick to the usual bomb rack for the BDUs.. although I remember seeing a VERY early shot of our jets in country during the 80's with something similar to that training loudout.
But those were the heydeys of US help and us being equipped accordingly with the multiple thingamachiks that come with American stuff.
"that is a TRRT-223...."
"what is that??".. 
" Plastic bag to store the nuts that hold the wheel in place.. important part".


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## jonathan8940

I want to join miltery...Its my passion.


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## Luftwaffe

UPDATE 2 Jan 2012:

*Pakistani military officials said a U.S. aid cutoff would suspend delivery next year of six refitted F-16 aircrafts. Currently Pakistan currently has 47 F-16s, a small percentage of a fighter wing that also includes Chinese and European-made jets.*

Pakistan, US assume less cooperation in future - Politics - Wire - TheState.com


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## nitetrogen70

so do we any f16 c/d in our inventory


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## [--Leo--]

nitetrogen70 said:


> so do we any f16 c/d in our inventory



16 C and 2 D or 14 C and 4 D =18


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## fatman17

[--Leo--];2455836 said:


> 16 C and 2 D or 14 C and 4 D =18



12C single seat
6D twin seat

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## nomi007

just purchase this for these deadly beasts


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## rohailmalhi

Can someone tell me how many of the F-16s ,USA still have to deliver to PAF. 

I heard that due to this Nato supply line stoppage they have stopped the deliever of the remaining F16 to Pakistan. .

F-16 supply unclear in foggy Pak-U.S. ties


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## monitor

rohailmalhi said:


> Can someone tell me how many of the F-16s ,USA still have to deliver to PAF.
> 
> I heard that due to this Nato supply line stoppage they have stopped the deliever of the remaining F16 to Pakistan. .
> 
> F-16 supply unclear in foggy Pak-U.S. ties







Whether they supply or halt the F-16 it is not going to affect Pakistan Defence any more as Pakistan is already going to get similar or comparability better aircraft from china .

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## untitled

nomi007 said:


> just purchase this for these deadly beasts



I dont think the KC-135 is in production anymore


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## DANGER-ZONE

Probably the MLU F-16s ..... 6 or 8 will be affected by the recent sanction. 
If USA did what they did in 90s then Block-52 would be going to China on vacations  
Chae Chaa-16 Pong-52

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## Raftar

This will be the best move ever 

And we will see JF-17 blk 3 earlier  
JUST SAYING

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## nomi007

pdf_shurtah said:


> I dont think the KC-135 is in production anymore


but use planes are available
like il-78


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## graphican

Were Pakistani F-16s not being upgraded in Turkey? I think they are holding one of our Block-52 jet which they said is for the trials and testing or something? Or has that reached Pakistan yet?

Guys.. enlighten on that please.


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## rohailmalhi

monitor said:


> Whether they supply or halt the F-16 it is not going to affect Pakistan Defence any more as Pakistan is already going to get similar or comparability better aircraft from china .



Yeah i know but it has more to do with ,I own a thing and US of A just coz they can ,is stopping us from having sumthing that is rightfully ours.


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## ziaulislam

i dont think so US will do that blunder..as it has to find a nice excuse which it doesnt now. The nuclear issue is long gone..so even we halt nato supplies i dont expect this desicion.
If pakistan is going to open supplies they should increase the transit to atleast 300 million from currrent pathetic 50 million per month. but better we should stop this thing


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## monitor

rohailmalhi said:


> Yeah i know but it has more to do with ,I own a thing and US of A just coz they can ,is stopping us from having sumthing that is rightfully ours.


 

Yea you have the right to get the fighter but a friend like USA needs a simple excuses to break the rule and norm .


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## Luftwaffe

ziaulislam said:


> i dont think so US will do that blunder. If pakistan is going to open supplies they should increase the transit to atleast 300 million from currrent pathetic 50 million per month. but better we should stop this thing



Things have gone a little further, They want Transit open without Fees& Taxes otherwise They will sanction and do what they want the most to hurt Pakistan, see how they with held 6 F-16s. The best option is to immediately suspend Foreign Debt Repayments to US.


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## rohailmalhi

Luftwaffe said:


> Things have gone a little further, They want Transit open without Fees& Taxes otherwise They will sanction and do what they want the most to hurt Pakistan, see how they with held 6 F-16s. The best option is to immediately suspend Foreign Debt Repayments to US.



There is much more we can do , equipment and military vehicle worth million are at karachi port.Get hold of them. Tell them u have thing we own and we have things u own .Better tell them to behave this time if they dont then check with all other option we have.

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## Major Sam

rohailmalhi said:


> There is much more we can do , equipment and military vehicle worth million are at karachi port.Get hold of them. Tell them u have thing we own and we have things u own .Better tell them to behave this time if they dont then check with all other option we have.



amazing..... m fully agree with u


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## PakShaheen79

to my understanding, this is being considered in some corridors in GHQ  though chances are less likely


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## A1Kaid

Are all the F16s that were sent out for MLUs and other upgrades returned to Pakistan yet?


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## Last Hope

A1Kaid said:


> Are all the F16s that were sent out for MLUs and other upgrades returned to Pakistan yet?


No. If they did, it would have made the headlines.


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## VelocuR

*Pakistani military officials said a U.S. aid cutoff would suspend delivery next year of six refitted F-16 aircraft. Currently Pakistan currently has 47 F-16s, a small percentage of a fighter wing that also includes Chinese and European-made jets.* (Jan 2 2012)

Redefined Pakistan-US relationship means less cooperation, lower expectations - The Washington Post

Well done, F-16 jets


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## A1Kaid

RaptorRX707 said:


> *Pakistani military officials said a U.S. aid cutoff would suspend delivery next year of six refitted F-16 aircraft. Currently Pakistan currently has 47 F-16s, a small percentage of a fighter wing that also includes Chinese and European-made jets.* (Jan 2 2012)
> 
> Redefined Pakistan-US relationship means less cooperation, lower expectations - The Washington Post
> 
> Well done, F-16 jets




PAF was suppose to get the delivery in Dec 2011 if I'm not mistaken. US "aid" and the F-16 deal are two separate programs. Pakistan should certainly no longer trust US administration. Pakistan suspends their supply line and they suspend delivery of PAF's F16s sent there to be upgraded. What idiot in PAF thought it would be a good idea to send Paks F16s to US for upgrades, knowing the political climate.


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## A1Kaid

graphican said:


> Were Pakistani F-16s not being upgraded in Turkey? I think they are holding one of our Block-52 jet which they said is for the trials and testing or something? Or has that reached Pakistan yet?
> 
> Guys.. enlighten on that please.



Yeah I think they still have one there for trial and testing, should expect it back in months I hope but not sure.


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## Mav3rick

Daily Express (4th January 2012) reports that US has blocked delivery of F-16's, the US was supposed to deliver atleast 6 Jets this year. Ah.....it was an insane decision to purchase the A/C from a tried and tested unreliable supplier and a covert enemy, I personally hope that those who opted for these Jets are court-martialed for their treachery!

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## A1Kaid

Exactly the PAF F-16 program should be halted unless Turkiye can give Pakistan assurances of F-16 tech support, spare parts, upgrade kits, even transfer of technology. Turkiye has indigenous licensed manufacturing capability of F16, PAF really needs to bypass some red tape with Tr and work with them on the F-16 program if PAF really wishes to continue progressing the platform. Meanwhile, JF-17 II has to developed.

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## SEAL




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## MZUBAIR

I think, its the right time to say good bye to USA for ever .... Miltary and GOV should make strong decisions.

PAK is not being protected by these F16's.....its just an edge on counter part.

Closing F-16's doors would surly open new doors.....!!! Best time to rethink PAF.


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## fjavaid

Mav3rick said:


> Daily Express (4th January 2012) reports that US has blocked delivery of F-16's, the US was supposed to deliver atleast 6 Jets this year. Ah.....it was an insane decision to purchase the A/C from a tried and tested unreliable supplier and a covert enemy, I personally hope that those who opted for these Jets are court-martialed for their treachery!


 
Sorry to say .. this is not the first time...we hv been s--t by US......but our AF jst cant let the Falcons go.......


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## regular

A1Kaid said:


> PAF was suppose to get the delivery in Dec 2011 if I'm not mistaken. US "aid" and the F-16 deal are two separate programs. Pakistan should certainly no longer trust US administration. Pakistan suspends their supply line and they suspend delivery of PAF's F16s sent there to be upgraded. What idiot in PAF thought it would be a good idea to send Paks F16s to US for upgrades, knowing the political climate.


That idea is by that traitor PAF Chief....He is the US lapdog.....trying to protect their interests.....


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## graphican

No one was anticipating sudden crash of relationships. Don't forget Pakistan did not execute option for additional F-16s considering the same. 6 Aircrafts matter but not more than survive-ability.. but don't think Pakistan is on the verge of loosing these aircrafts.. we can trade them for the millions of dollar of sensitive US/NATO equipment which is stuck inside Pakistan. 

PAF is in much comfortable position today and can afford loss of 6 F-16s of it has to be. I am sure our friends (China) will be looking forward to compensate and fill any gaps which USA's classical ridiculousness might cause.

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## ziaulislam

there is no chance of suspension for providing these F-16s..US wount do such a blunder..however we might be refused for further f-16s as the sale will have to go to congress


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## Mav3rick

ziaulislam said:


> there is no chance of suspension for providing these F-16s..US wount do such a blunder..however we might be refused for further f-16s as the sale will have to go to congress



Refusal for further F-16 sale would be the best thing that could ever happen to PAF. JF-17 happened only due to pressler sanctions otherwise we would still be relying on US. Sanctions can only make us more independent, strong, self reliant and prosperous as our investment will stay in the country and provide thousands of jobs to Pakistani's.


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## fjavaid

graphican said:


> No one was anticipating sudden crash of relationships. Don't forget Pakistan did not execute option for additional F-16s considering the same. 6 Aircrafts matter but not more than survive-ability.. but don't think Pakistan is on the verge of loosing these aircrafts.. we can trade them for the millions of dollar of sensitive US/NATO equipment which is stuck inside Pakistan.
> 
> PAF is in much comfortable position today and can afford loss of 6 F-16s of it has to be. I am sure our friends (China) will be looking forward to compensate and fill any gaps which USA's classical ridiculousness might cause.


 
Yup thats the problem with us ....we dont learn from our mistakes and see to others to solve our problems ......
i wish that day never comes when we hesitate to look to china either ......hopefully i am clear enough....

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## Donatello

Seriously, who the F*** gives the USA right to block our F-16s? If they don't want to MLU, thats fine. But they are property of Pakistani state. Seriously, time to start F***ing them over with their shipments. Send all those M4A1s and M16s to the taliban....


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## fatman17

fox said:


>



one of the most un-reliable media outlets in PK.


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## Aamir Hussain

And has a very "facillitated" view on all things American.


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## nomi007

i think they stop the sale of next 18 f-16 block-52


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## fjavaid

nomi007 said:


> i think they stop the sale of next 18 f-16 block-52


 
No Dear ..Thank GOD PAF didnt opted for the next 18-F16s .....its the OLD F16s for MLU upgrade that had been "STOLEN" again by US

i think 4 F16s are in Turkey and 6 in US for MLU .........

i think we may be able to get the Turkish upgraded Falcons ......but how can turkey upgrade them if it dont get the kits for it ....


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## Last Hope

A1Kaid said:


> Yeah I think they still have one there for trial and testing, should expect it back in months I hope but not sure.


 

One? We all thought it to be one F-16D.
But Air Chief said it to be *four* Block 52s.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Last Hope said:


> One? We all thought it to be one F-16D.
> But Air Chief said it to be *four* Block 52s.



Can u post the source .... ?


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## MZUBAIR

We shld immidetly go for JF17 BLK II & J10B's.....batter forget F-16's


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## Last Hope

danger-zone said:


> Can u post the source .... ?


Source: ISPR.
It was said by ACM in interview in late November or early December.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Last Hope said:


> Source: ISPR.
> It was said by ACM in interview in late November or early December.



Then plz post it here, what ever it is Video or text. 
i am concerned about how could it be 4 Block-52s when we have received 17 or all, and never ordered more. 
They are more likely MLU f-16s 6 or 10 ... figure is not confirmed but cant be block 52.


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## Imran Khan

damn again USA did it lolz ab to aqaal ker jao yaar. i am happy our eggs was not in there basket more else we was screwed man hahaha


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## Last Hope

danger-zone said:


> Then plz post it here, what ever it is Video or text.
> i am concerned about how could it be 4 Block-52s when we have received 17 or all, and never ordered more.
> They are more likely MLU f-16s 6 or 10 ... figure is not confirmed but cant be block 52.



It was posted on on this thread. Please go through the posts from late November.
The ACM said that 4 Block 52s were pending delivery and I was surprised. Even I was told of one.


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## bc040400065

Last Hope said:


> It was posted on on this thread. Please go through the posts from late November.
> The ACM said that 4 Block 52s were pending delivery and I was surprised. Even I was told of one.



General sahib please don't create more confusion. as i get it, the 4 F16 were part of the 14 ex-peace gate III/IV aircrafts given to PAF in 2007. Only 10 were actually delivered and 4 were there for MLU. So these are blk 15OCU aircrafts. Only one BLk52 serial no 10801 is still with the US as i have read on this forum. news report has created confusion and you are making it more difficult to understand.

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## Bratva

These 4 are rumored to be MLU aircrafts.


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## Last Hope

bc040400065 said:


> General sahib please don't create more confusion. as i get it, the 4 F16 were part of the 14 ex-peace gate III/IV aircrafts given to PAF in 2007. Only 10 were actually delivered and 4 were there for MLU. So these are blk 15OCU aircrafts. Only one BLk52 serial no 10801 is still with the US as i have read on this forum. news report has created confusion and you are making it more difficult to understand.



Actually 10801 news was leaked by me myself so that's totally true. We all know it.
But the ACM in the interview talked about 'Recently acquired F-16s of which 4 were not delivered...' and talked about MLU.
Maybe you are right. Someone must have posted too old news. 

I do remember that the poster was creditable and sir fatman had his comments on it.


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## bc040400065

Imran Khan said:


> damn again USA did it lolz ab to aqaal ker jao yaar. i am happy our eggs was not in there basket more else we was screwed man hahaha



kioun bahi jan. ap tu bhoot kush hutay hain F16s ku dekh k. Remember few days ago i said RSAF should not waste money on F15;s and you said why not, they should have a mix fleet like us, and you posted our F16 blk52 pics. so asay mokah pe kehtay hain Hor choopo.  

never trust The uncle.


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## regular

Imran Khan said:


> damn again USA did it lolz ab to aqaal ker jao yaar. i am happy our eggs was not in there basket more else we was screwed man hahaha


U know what?? this time PAF played smart cuz they put rotten eggs within the US basket so let them be happi this time.....


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## Peaceful Civilian

*History is witness. We Made USA Super Power against Russia in Soviet war in Afghanistan by sacrificing Our Bloods. Now after 9/11, We lost 35000 civilians, Military personals and sacrificed our 60 Billion Dollar Economy For USA and we made same Taliban our enemy,just for USA...... But at last, every time USA back stab us, Sometimes in the form of Sanctions, and sometime as they did with us today. And on the other side,USA made Their country Peaceful from Pakistan Blood. I can't Believe how Our PAF chief trusted them. These F16s are now property of Pakistan, If they don't deliver us, WE should take these money from PAF Chief or anybody who signed MLUs or anybody involved in any hidden agreement, should be brought to Justice. *


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## Secur

I consider it to be a blessing in disguise actually ... The sanctions placed on us will make us more self reliant in defense ... Nobody gives a damn **** about the F16 now ... JFT Blk 2 and FC 20 all the way


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## epinephrine

Peaceful Civlian said:


> *History is witness. We Made USA Super Power against Russia in Soviet war in Afghanistan by sacrificing Our Bloods. Now after 9/11, We lost 35000 civilians, Military personals and sacrificed our 60 Billion Dollar Economy For USA and we made same Taliban our enemy,just for USA...... But at last, every time USA back stab us, Sometimes in the form of Sanctions, and sometime as they did with us today. And on the other side,USA made Their country Peaceful from Pakistan Blood. I can't Believe how Our PAF chief trusted them. These F16s are now property of Pakistan, If they don't deliver us, WE should take these money from PAF Chief or anybody who signed MLUs or anybody involved in any hidden agreement, should be brought to Justice. *



we fought against russia primarily for our own safety n not for america.
n u still dont consider talibans as our enemy??u r wrong.both america n talibans r our enemies.operation in fata should be done 60 years ago so that we would have killed the evil in the bud.n one thing more..........OUR GREATEST ENEMIES ARE SITTING IN OUR PARLIAMENT

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## Rahil khan

When we shall learn from the past? Again it is absolutely clear that there are mutual interests not the sacrifices which are the parameters of the relations of two countries. Just look at India... President Obama when visited India he signed 10 billion $ trade deal with them by which thousands of new jobs will be created in United States...Look how Indians have made themselves as a one of the most attractive countries of the world for investment...Look how US is dying to supply them F-16s, F-18s or even JF-35....There are lots and lots of lessons to be learned for us...Unless we change the image of our beloved Pakistan world wide not as a terrorist state but as stable prosperous, progressive country (for which we have to sincerely honestly work hard as an individual) US and other western countries will continue to ditch us and we will continuously be ditched in future......

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## A1Kaid

MZUBAIR said:


> We shld immidetly go for JF17 BLK II & J10B's.....batter forget F-16's



We can't put our trust in J-10B until PAF gets a chance to examine the aircraft and conduct test flights, there is still a lot we don't know about the aircraft. Though development of JF-17 II is more urgent then ever.


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## nitetrogen70

well at least we will no focus on the jf block 2  and j10 b


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## Imran Khan

bc040400065 said:


> kioun bahi jan. ap tu bhoot kush hutay hain F16s ku dekh k. Remember few days ago i said RSAF should not waste money on F15;s and you said why not, they should have a mix fleet like us, and you posted our F16 blk52 pics. so asay mokah pe kehtay hain Hor choopo.
> 
> never trust The uncle.




you got my posts wrong i just show you guys why we can buy and they can't .


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## shanixee

F-16 program not stopped: US Embassy

2
ISLAMABAD: The US Embassy has confirmed that the F-16 program with Pakistan has not been stopped. The embassy says reports in the media about the stoppage of the program are not accurate.

According to a US Embassy statement, the planned delivery of the last new-buy F-16 purchased by Pakistan is scheduled to arrive from the United States in late January, 2012.

Several other F-16s purchased by Pakistan from the United States are undergoing mid-life upgrades and will arrive in Pakistan beginning in late January.
Deliveries will continue throughout this year and next.

F-16 program not stopped: US Embassy

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## nomi007

i think we must to speed up the delivery of f-16s and p-3c orions
as soon as possible
also must to control and avoid them
1st get all those equipments then leave them


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## DANGER-ZONE

nomi007 said:


> i think we must to speed up the delivery of f-16s and p-3c orions
> as soon as possible
> also must to control and avoid them
> 1st get all those equipments then leave them



The problem is WE CANNOT, because they are the suppliers not we.


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## A1Kaid

shanixee said:


> F-16 program not stopped: US Embassy
> 
> 2
> ISLAMABAD: The US Embassy has confirmed that the F-16 program with Pakistan has not been stopped. The embassy says reports in the media about the stoppage of the program are not accurate.
> 
> According to a US Embassy statement, the planned delivery of the last new-buy F-16 purchased by Pakistan is scheduled to arrive from the United States in late January, 2012.
> 
> Several other F-16s purchased by Pakistan from the United States are undergoing mid-life upgrades and will arrive in Pakistan beginning in late January.
> Deliveries will continue throughout this year and next.
> 
> F-16 program not stopped: US Embassy



Looks like they responded to us, either that reports in the press.


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## Last Hope

nomi007 said:


> i think we must to speed up the delivery of f-16s and p-3c orions
> as soon as possible
> also must to control and avoid them
> 1st get all those equipments then leave them



Pakistan must stop military co-operation and minimize the ties but not totally boycott US! This thing doesn't work in the modern era, it's you will be the loser in the end.

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## zavis2003

nomi007 said:


> i think we must to speed up the delivery of f-16s and p-3c orions
> as soon as possible
> also must to control and avoid them
> 1st get all those equipments then leave them



your statement is questioned and i think you are just filling the words . it might be possible that you are under 18 but you have deceived the moderators and entered the forum. Now you are caught red handed for your under 18 comments!!!!


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## MZUBAIR

Similar Story in Todays Lahore Jang News Paper







Lets wait till the last week of Jan 2012


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## CallsignAlzaeem

ITT Exelis has successfully installed and tested a pod-mounted, advanced self-defense electronic warfare system on F-16 aircraft operated by an international customer.
The Airborne Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System, or AIDEWS (ALQ-211), completed several F-16 sorties and was tested against a wide variety of RF (radio frequency) threats. While this testing verified the effectiveness of the pod-mounted version, the system can be internally integrated as well. Either configuration offers next-generation integrated radar warning and electronic countermeasures capability with greatly reduced integration cost.
This most recent exercise continues AIDEWS long track record of delivery and performance success, said Rich Sorelle, vice president and general manager of Exelis Electronic Systems integrated electronic warfare systems business area. Since AIDEWS is based on modular, scalable EW technology and has a large installed base, allied forces will have lower maintenance and upgrade costs.
AIDEWS is built upon the proven ALQ-211 family of electronic warfare systems that support a broad range of U.S. and allied defense customers on rotary-wing and fighter aircraft. These include versions of the NH-90, V-22, MH-47, MH-60, F-16 and several commercial platforms. AIDEWS provides fighter pilots with situational awareness and protection against radar-based threats, including modern surface-to-air and air-to-air weapon systems.
The system is currently in full production with more than 180 under contract for six international customers. To date, 140 systems have been delivered, including continuous software support through regular system updates. These updates allow AIDEWS operators to optimize operational self-protection capabilities in an evolving environment throughout the aircraft life.
ITT Exelis Electronic Systems division provides innovative integrated solutions for the global defense, intelligence, information assurance and commercial aerospace sectors. As a leader in electronic warfare and communications, we leverage our experience and innovation to ensure the success of our customers critical missions. Our technology leadership extends into the areas of airborne electronic attack, networked and satellite communications, counter-improvised explosive devices, airspace management, surveillance systems, airborne and shipboard radar, acoustic sensors, advanced composite structures and electronic weapons interfaces.
ITT Exelis is a diversified, top-tier global aerospace, defense and information solutions company with strong positions in enduring and emerging global markets. Exelis is a leader in networked communications, sensing and surveillance, electronic warfare, navigation, air traffic solutions and information systems with growing positions in cyber security, composite aerostructures, logistics and technical services. Headquartered in McLean, Va., the company employs about 21,000 people and generated 2010 revenue of $5.9 billion.


[DEFENCE TALK]

THOUGH THE ARTICLE USED THE WORD ''F-16 OF AN INTERNATIONAL CUSTOMER'' I STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT ITS THE SAME PAF F-16D BLOCK 52+ SERIAL NUMBER #10801 WE WERE TALKING ABOUT.

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## 3030

Callsignalazeem Blk 52s already have this system (plz see specs in the initial pages), in my view this would be our MLUed aircraft. What do you think since our MLU kit was specified to have this as a poded system (again all details in this forum).

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## fatman17

*&#8220;Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute.&#8221; *-- George Bernard Shaw

---------- Post added at 01:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:13 PM ----------




3030 said:


> Callsignalazeem Blk 52s already have this system (plz see specs in the initial pages), in my view this would be our MLUed aircraft. What do you think since our MLU kit was specified to have this as a poded system (again all details in this forum).



very possible indeed!

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## SBD-3

MZUBAIR said:


> Similar Story in Todays Lahore Jang News Paper
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lets wait till the last week of Jan 2012


So embacy is also talking about "new" platforms only....What about the MLUs....


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## CallsignAlzaeem

3030 said:


> Callsignalazeem Blk 52s already have this system (plz see specs in the initial pages), in my view this would be our MLUed aircraft. What do you think since our MLU kit was specified to have this as a poded system (again all details in this forum).



Dear Friend,How can it possibly be with the package delivered when the contract to provide pods was signed just 3 months ago,Had it been delivered we all would have seen it in the latest exclusive pics where we saw Sniper pod,JHMCS and AIM-120 on Block 52+.However on Block 52+ or MLU thats not the topic,

Regards.


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## air marshal

*Pakistan ready to receive 18 F-16 Block 52 fighter aircraft*

(WAPA) - Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will receive 18 F-16 block 52 aircraft from Lockheed Martin later this month as part of a contract for the sale of 36 F-16C/D block 50/52 aircraft announced in June 2005. Lockheed Martin had been awarded a contract for 12 F-16C and six F-16D block 52 aircraft in December 2006.

Pakistan has already received block 52 versions of the F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft, which includes day-night, all-weather and precision-attack capabilities. The compact multi-role, single-engine F-16 Fighting Falcon plane has a high level of manoeuvrability, a top speed of 2,124km/h; it can also detect planes flying at very low altitudes. The F-16 block 52 aircraft provides additional fuel and payload capacity and improved avionics and sensors.

The AN/APG-68 radar-equipped F-16 provides the pilot with separate air-to-air and air-to-ground modes, including long-range, all-aspect detection and tracking, simultaneous multiple-target tracking and high-resolution ground mapping. The F-16 is widely deployed by the air forces of Israel, Egypt, Iraq, New Zealand, South Korea, Chile, Poland, UAE, Bahrain, Greece and Singapore.

The US is also working with the PAF to modernise 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the US foreign military financing security assistance programme.

Avionews - Agenzia stampa del settore aeronautico, elicotteristico, aerospaziale e della difesa


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## Imran Khan

so more 18 f-16 exchange with blood of pakistanis just for ride few guys nothing more . so sad story .

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## Windjammer

Now that is interesting, initially the order was cut back to 18 due to diversion of funds, and out of the blue 18 more have appeared.

If the news is true, then it's obvious why one of the "D" model was held back.


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## Windjammer

Sorry guys, it's a false news....just inquired from Alan Warnes...this was part of his reply.




> Alan Warnes
> 4:25 PM (0 minutes ago)
> 
> to me
> There has been some confusion over a press release sent out by the USEmbassy in Islamabad last week.


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## Bratva

Windjammer said:


> Now that is interesting, initially the order was cut back to 18 due to diversion of funds, and out of the blue 18 more have appeared.
> 
> If the news is true, then it's obvious why one of the "D" model was held back.



Why am i having a hunch author mixed the MLU aircraft with new 18 aircrafts?


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## regular

So we are still under the grip of the evil US......


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## TOPGUN

So it's false news correct ? no more blk 52 vipers coming our way ?


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## Emmie

@ Windy you further augmented my confusion, please clarify..


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## Windjammer

Emmie said:


> @ Windy you further augmented my confusion, please clarify..



As mafiya said, it must be something to do with the MLU/Embargoed aircraft. I'll try and get more info tomorrow.

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## air marshal

> *Pakistan to receive final batch of F-16 aircraft from US*
> 10 January 2012
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will receive 18 F-16 block 52 aircraft from Lockheed Martin later this month as part of a foreign military sale (FMS) of 36 F-16C/D block 50/52 aircraft announced in June 2005.
> 
> Under the US-Pakistan F-16 programme, Lockheed was awarded a contract for 12 F-16C and six F-16D block 52 aircraft in December 2006. The delivery comes at a time when military aid for Pakistan has been almost completely halted by the US in the wake of a series of crises affecting the bilateral relationship between the two nations.
> 
> Pakistan has already received block 52 versions of the F-16 aircraft, which includes day-night, all-weather and precision-attack capabilities. The compact multirole, single-engine Lockheed Martin-built F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft has a high level of manoeuvrability, a top speed of 2,124km/h, and can detect planes flying at very low altitudes. The F-16 block 52 aircraft provides additional fuel and payload capacity, improved avionics and sensors, and colour cockpit displays with enhanced pilot/vehicle interfaces.
> 
> The AN/APG-68 radar-equipped F-16 with wind-corrected munitions dispenser infrared navigation provides the pilot with separate air-to-air and air-to-ground modes, including long-range, all-aspect detection and tracking, simultaneous multiple-target tracking and high-resolution ground mapping. The F-16 jets are widely deployed by the air forces of Israel, Egypt, Iraq, New Zealand, South Korea, Chile, Poland, UAE, Bahrain, Greece and Singapore.
> 
> The US is also working with the PAF to update 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the US foreign military financing security assistance programme. The aircraft are currently undergoing mid-life upgrades and deliveries are scheduled to take place throughout 2012 and 2013.



Pakistan to receive final batch of F-16 aircraft from US - Airforce Technology

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## Abu Zolfiqar

it's been drilled into them for so long from our side that we feel history will repeat itself (especially with regards to f-solas)

they also know that they can provide the aircrafts but cut off anything if things were to deteriorate for whatever reason


but i guess receiving them is better thn having them sit in hangers, un-used --while incurring storage costs!!


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## Donatello

PAF got 500 Aim 120s. However, if i remember correctly, they ordered only a couple of hundred Aim 9 Sidewinders. What's the take on that? I mean 500 Aim120s seem to be a sufficient number, in case future orders can't be placed. But doesn't PAF need more Sidewinders as they are used by F-7s and maybe Jf-17s as well?


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## BATMAN

P.Musharraf did not opted for the option of second batch of 18 blk-52.
How come US deliver those, without order!

It is unnecessary confusion... we are indulging our selves in.

How is it possible that Pakistan place order and it did not made to news?

However, one blk-52 is short of previous tranche, which is expected to be delivered in January.

Further, we expect to receive is 6 F-16 from US after MLU, which are suppose to arrive in current year.


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## TOPGUN

Question is how true is this news ? and is it going to happen ? are we getting 18 more?


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## farhan_9909

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will receive 18 F-16 block 52 aircraft from Lockheed Martin later this month as part of a foreign military sale (FMS) of 36 F-16C/D block 50/52 aircraft announced in June 2005.

Under the US-Pakistan F-16 programme, Lockheed was awarded a contract for 12 F-16C and six F-16D block 52 aircraft in December 2006. The delivery comes at a time when military aid for Pakistan has been almost completely halted by the US in the wake of a series of crises affecting the bilateral relationship between the two nations.

*Pakistan has already received block 52 versions of the F-16 aircraft,* which includes day-night, all-weather and precision-attack capabilities. The compact multirole, single-engine Lockheed Martin-built F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft has a high level of manoeuvrability, a top speed of 2,124km/h, and can detect planes flying at very low altitudes. The F-16 block 52 aircraft provides additional fuel and payload capacity, improved avionics and sensors, and colour cockpit displays with enhanced pilot/vehicle interfaces.

The AN/APG-68 radar-equipped F-16 with wind-corrected munitions dispenser infrared navigation provides the pilot with separate air-to-air and air-to-ground modes, including long-range, all-aspect detection and tracking, simultaneous multiple-target tracking and high-resolution ground mapping. The F-16 jets are widely deployed by the air forces of Israel, Egypt, Iraq, New Zealand, South Korea, Chile, Poland, UAE, Bahrain, Greece and Singapore.

*The US is also working with the PAF to update 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the US foreign military financing security assistance programme. The aircraft are currently undergoing mid-life upgrades and deliveries are scheduled to take place throughout 2012 and 2013.*

Image: *The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is to receive its final batch of 18 F-16 block 52 aircraft from the US*


Pakistan to receive final batch of F-16 aircraft from US - Airforce Technology

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## Zarvan

PAF will receive 18 at once or in 6 batches I mean 6 first time than 6 and than 6


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## farhan_9909

45 for MLU upgrade
17 Block 52 received
1 Block 52 to be received this month

*18 More block 52 are now confirmed by USA..delivery not known*

---------- Post added at 10:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 AM ----------




Zarvan said:


> PAF will receive 18 at once or in 6 batches I mean 6 first time than 6 and than 6



Pakistan will nt likely receive them this month.the newly proposed more 18.

this is still nt known bt will take atleast 1-2years

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## Patriot

So it means PAF did place order for extra 18 F16's ( as it was a option in contract)..Looks like it might be part of new deal offered by US to resume supply lines etc.


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## farhan_9909

Patriot said:


> So it means PAF did place order for extra 18 F16's ( as it was a option in contract)..Looks like it might be part of new deal offered by US to resume supply lines etc.



back in 2009 "14" more were agreed by USA i dnt know what happened to that 14..bt i think this is the part of the 2006 deal.



> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of up to 36 F-16C Block 50 and F-16D Block 52 two-seater aircraft &#8211; a buy of 18 jets, with an option for another 18. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $3 billion.



*well anyhow 

COngrats to everyone from my side*


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## A1Kaid

These F-16's have to be inspected thoroughly.


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## Areesh

I thought the plan to buy 18 more block 52's was scrapped by PAF. How credible is this news?


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## Patriot

Areesh said:


> I thought the plan to buy 18 more block 52's was scrapped by PAF. How credible is this news?


No other source reporting this so could be BS.


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## ziaulislam

surprising yet a good news..
this could be a payoff to resume supplies..as i think US now knows that cost of alternative routes will cost them billions of additional money..
anyway lets hop we get the 18 plus some older refurbished at a low price and P3 orions on time


one thing is for sure the TTP wouldnt change it tactics even if we stop supplies, recent severe attacks on civilians afeter some time prove that..
secondly army going lenient also help them as they were rumours of talks and releasing of some men
lastly sucide attacks have gone down as they are losing their men now its more remote control or time bombs which are easy to amke due to stupid policy of widely available fertilizer and ransom and drug income


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## ziaulislam

well i think the news isnt authentic enough...until some real link comes up ..i am doubtful


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## regular

Now I know why the PAF Chief never ordered to shoot down US/NATO helicopters and neither the drones.....cuz he be looking for these F-16. This means he will never order to shoot down any future aircraft attack by the US on our soil.Our sovereingty is infact compromised now....


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## RazPaK

Even so, what does the PAF have in mind after the F-16 in the long run?

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## TOPGUN

RazPaK said:


> Even so, what does the PAF have in mind after the F-16 in the long run?



Thunders all blocks.. & fc-20's .

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## RazPaK

> Thunders all blocks.. & fc-20's



Could you add pics and details please.


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## Areesh

Here is one more website saying the same.



> (WAPA) - Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will receive 18 F-16 block 52 aircraft from Lockheed Martin later this month as part of a contract for the sale of 36 F-16C/D block 50/52 aircraft announced in June 2005. Lockheed Martin had been awarded a contract for 12 F-16C and six F-16D block 52 aircraft in December 2006.
> 
> Pakistan has already received block 52 versions of the F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft, which includes day-night, all-weather and precision-attack capabilities. The compact multi-role, single-engine F-16 Fighting Falcon plane has a high level of manoeuvrability, a top speed of 2,124km/h; it can also detect planes flying at very low altitudes. The F-16 block 52 aircraft provides additional fuel and payload capacity and improved avionics and sensors.



Avionews - Agenzia stampa del settore aeronautico, elicotteristico, aerospaziale e della difesa


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## Last Hope

Hi all.

I posted earlier about PAF going for 14 more Block 52s, all will be supported by CFTs and are F-16*C*s.
The Think Tanks lashed back on my knowledge saying it was not creditable. My sources told me about it though and I rather trust them.
*
Now coming in avionews, Pakistan will receive 18 F-16s this month.*



> (WAPA) - Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will receive 18 F-16 block 52 aircraft from Lockheed Martin later this month as part of a contract for the sale of 36 F-16C/D block 50/52 aircraft announced in June 2005. Lockheed Martin had been awarded a contract for 12 F-16C and six F-16D block 52 aircraft in December 2006.
> 
> Pakistan has already received block 52 versions of the F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft, which includes day-night, all-weather and precision-attack capabilities. The compact multi-role, single-engine F-16 Fighting Falcon plane has a high level of manoeuvrability, a top speed of 2,124km/h; it can also detect planes flying at very low altitudes. The F-16 block 52 aircraft provides additional fuel and payload capacity and improved avionics and sensors.
> 
> The AN/APG-68 radar-equipped F-16 provides the pilot with separate air-to-air and air-to-ground modes, including long-range, all-aspect detection and tracking, simultaneous multiple-target tracking and high-resolution ground mapping. The F-16 is widely deployed by the air forces of Israel, Egypt, Iraq, New Zealand, South Korea, Chile, Poland, UAE, Bahrain, Greece and Singapore.
> 
> The US is also working with the PAF to modernise 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the US foreign military financing security assistance programme. (Avionews)
> (0010)



Avionews - Agenzia stampa del settore aeronautico, elicotteristico, aerospaziale e della difesa


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## nomi007

zavis2003 said:


> your statement is questioned and i think you are just filling the words . it might be possible that you are under 18 but you have deceived the moderators and entered the forum. Now you are caught red handed for your under 18 comments!!!!


i m right
because we still need equipments from usa
remember beggars are not chooser


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## nomi007

good news more 18 f-16s are coming
Pakistan to receive final batch of F-16 aircraft from US - Airforce Technology

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## Mani2020

This is the news for the delivery/arrival of the last (i.e 18th ) aircraft that was along with USAF and was not delivered to PAF and about which there were lot of rumors and fuss ....this is not for the delivery of the 18 on option aircrafts.... you guys are really messing it up

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## saiyan0321

well these looks like the f16 we have already paid for as why would our military be buying new f16 when we have a better and cost effective jf17 i say take what they owe us and concentrate on those jf17


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## R-DB

Do americans attach restrictions with f-16's to pakistan?
they do it with every country.


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## Najam Khan

*PAF is not going for anymore block52s, this news is either speculation or misinterpretation of arrival of four MLU F-16s from US, scheduled this Jan. *

The F-16D 10801 is most probably on 'loan' to Lochkeed Martin, it has nothing to do US using Pakistan's paid F-16s...haven't you people seen AGM-65D and PAVEWAY-III undergoing flight trails on it? Its presence at FW is most probably a part of the Block52 and related equipment deal. Since these aircraft are tailor made for PAF, hence they have different versions of avionics as compare to block50/52s operated by other customers like Poland, Morroco, Greece, Oman or US. Weapon integration and flight trails on similar example block52 is a necessary condition before delivery to a customer.


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## ziaulislam

is there any chance that the news surfaced because we are getting older f-16s ...? probably the 14 embargoed ones? or may be refurbished f-16 Cs 
One thing is for sure, there is no doubt that PAF wants more f-16s atleast used/refurbished one..


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## epinephrine

saiyan0321 said:


> well these looks like the f16 we have already paid for as why would our military be buying new f16 when we have a better and cost effective jf17 i say take what they owe us and concentrate on those jf17



JF-17 block 1 is not as capable as F-16 plus we have vast experience with F-16.J-10 will probably be inducted in 2015 n will take some time in getting matured and our pilots will require some time in mastering it so till 2017 we need a capable jet to defend us against any threats.the best rather the only choice is F-16


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## epinephrine

can anybody tell what the hell is wrong with that that bloody 18th F-16.we have been hearing about this piece of sh*t for last 6 months.wats the delay ?uss ko kia surkhab k par lag rahay hain amreeka main??sorry for bad language but news regarding this 18th F-16 really pisses me off.aisay lag raha hay koe space shuttle milni hay 18th F-16 ki shakal main

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## Abu Zolfiqar

for those asking why PAF is upgrading F16s now --do remember that the tender to carry out the work was won by TAI over 3 years ago


same case with the remaining inductions of new block F16s --- old deal being completed now.


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## epinephrine

there is a difference in the upgrade package being done in turkey n in usa


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## Abu Zolfiqar

majority of the aircrafts *WILL be MLU'd* in both Ankara and Sargoda


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## TOPGUN

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> for those asking why PAF is upgrading F16s now --do remember that the tender to carry out the work was won by TAI over 3 years ago
> 
> 
> same case with the remaining inductions of new block F16s --- old deal being completed now.



So sir the news is true then about the option for 18 more blk 52's coming or way?


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## Abu Zolfiqar

option for the remaining 18 is on the table; but has not been exercised thus far by PAF

since the deal for 36 was approved by Congress (back in 2004 i think) i dont know if these additional 18 would be bound by US Congress approval or not. 

perhaps others would know more about it

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## Abingdonboy

A1Kaid said:


> These F-16's have to be inspected thoroughly.


Not possible. There are many digitally sealed componats that operators aren't allowed to inspect or open.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

i needed a special tool kit (not even available at the local hardware store) to open up almost 20 highly irregular screws on my Iphone --to replace the LCD

God only knows what kind of tools/codes you need to access digitally sealed components etc. etc. on piece of high tech American military hardware

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## TheJewverine

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i needed a special tool kit (not even available at the local hardware store) to open up almost 20 highly irregular screws on my Iphone --to replace the LCD
> 
> God only knows what kind of tools/codes you need to access digitally sealed components etc. etc. on piece of high tech American military hardware



How does the F16 qualify as "high tech?" It hasn't been in use by the United States for a long time, you are talking about a plane that originally came out in the 70s. Somehow I don't think the US is going to be too concerned about losing any "secret technologies" from a plane design that is older than most of the people on this forum...


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## Abu Zolfiqar

why was your air attache in Washington DC putting pressure on Pentagon not to allow the sale of Sniper Target pods for said aircrafts (the same one which we procured with some difficulty and much persuasion)

the Egyptian Air Force was denied sale of these pods


and everything is relative......for us, they are modern and high tech fighters. Theyve served us well. 5th generation is here, and we dont have 5th gen tech (yet) so to some degree your post is well taken


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## Imran Khan

lets pray we got back our jets from USA and never send them again damn there even for upgrade man . its not easy to bring back things from USA .

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## Abu Zolfiqar

i think only 3 or 4 of them would be upgraded in Texas, USA.

test batch of sorts...i could be wrong


the only thing the yanks (LM) are doing is supplying part of the kits.....TAI of Turkiye is doing the upgradation works, as they are licensed under the Lockheed Martin to do so


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## Imran Khan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> i think only 3 or 4 of them would be upgraded in Texas, USA.
> 
> test batch of sorts...i could be wrong
> 
> 
> the only thing the yanks (LM) are doing is supplying part of the kits.....TAI of Turkiye is doing the upgradation works, as they are licensed under the Lockheed Martin to do so



yes its clear sir from day one and proved after f-16 images in TAI . but we have to take care only USA and bring back jets from them ASAP they change there minds like weather in muree


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## Edevelop

People, try sending links proving that the MLUs are only being done in Ankara and Sargodha. How is Sargodha a perfect place? We don't even have a proper facility for F16s for MLU nor we have got any block 52 level tech. The Americans would want it to be in their land to create jobs and stuff.

Basically sending all of the old 45 F-16s for MLU at once overseas is a BIG risk. Its just dumb. 

As justified in the article, the deal was signed in 2005 for the supply of 36 F-16s. 
Look back how our relations were back 2005 and what it is now in 2012. In a nutshell, both U.S and Pakistani militaries are now in war of words. As always, whats gonna happen is, the U.S will cancel the supply of F-16s and will not return our money back. We should NOT forget about the embargo of our F-16s in Arizona. The United States of America has always put conditions on every buyer


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## HANI

Imran Khan said:


> yes its clear sir from day one and proved after f-16 images in TAI . but we have to take care only USA and bring back jets from them ASAP they change there minds like weather in muree


well come back imran bhi really nice to see u came back

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## Edevelop

The clear implication is that the Pakistani government is interested in buying used F-16s and upgrading them, which proved to be the case. As part of the deal for new planes, *in Sept 30/06 the USA also agreed to deliver 26 of the &#8220;Peace Gate III/IV&#8221; F-16A/B Block 15OCUs that had been ordered in 1988-1989, then embargoed when Pakistan tested nuclear weapons. After the embargo, the planes had been diverted for use as aggressor combat training aircraft by USAF and the US Navy.*
$5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s

Analysis: We are not getting back the embargoed ones. There is clear indication now that the final batch we are set to receive are new F-16 C/D Block 52




*Pakistan has ordered a total of 111 F-16A/B aircraft. Of these, 71 were embargoed by the US due to Pakistan's nuclear weapons program. Of these 71, 28 were actually built but were flown directly to the AMARC at Davis-Monthan AFB for storage.*

Over the years, various plans were conceived for these 28 aircraft: Pakistan wanted to get the aircraft or their money back; they were offered to various nations, none of which were interested; ultimately, the US Navy and USAF entered them into service as aggressor aircraft.

*After Pakistan's help in the war on terror, the US lifted the embargo. In 2005, Pakistan requested 24 new Block 50/52 F-16C/Ds (with option for as much as 55 aircraft). Ultimately an order for 18 F-16s was placed with an option on another 18*
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article14.html

Analysis: So it is clear again that 18 was ordered of that 17 has been delivered to us. Another 18 was an option. Another green light was given and the total number of blk 52 we placed order for= 36 F-16s. Note here that it says that we can buy as much as 55. It seems as though our F-16 fobia with the U.S is not really over yet.




*Turkish Aerospace to start Pakistani F-16 upgrades in 2010*
*Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) has won a $75 million contract to modernise 42 Pakistani Lockheed Martin F-16A/Bs at its facilities near Ankara.*

*The company plans to begin the upgrades in October 2010 and complete the work 46 months later*. It signed a memorandum of understanding with Pakistan in September 2006, but it has taken almost three years to sign the deal as Islamabad had to negotiate the sale of the upgrade kits and associated packages from the USA first. TAI won contracts to upgrade older Turkish and Jordanian F-16s in recent years.
Turkish Aerospace to start Pakistani F-16 upgrades in 2010

Analysis: 42 F-16s will be mordrnized buy Turkey and will take 46 months from October 2010
Here is the proof:








*Pakistan has received the first three upgraded F-16 fighter aircrafts with an official saying the aircraft could be used to deal with "all internal and external threats"*.
Pak receives 3 upgraded F-16 fighter aircrafts - Indian Express

Analysis: This is Great news. 3 F-16s being upgraded in U.S (which was thought to be know??) doesn't really matter now. LOL


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## Irfan Baloch

TheJewverine said:


> How does the F16 qualify as "high tech?" It hasn't been in use by the United States for a long time, you are talking about a plane that originally came out in the 70s. Somehow I don't think the US is going to be too concerned about losing any "secret technologies" from a plane design that is older than most of the people on this forum...



I don&#8217;t understand why you decided that F-16 is no longer used by America. If you don&#8217;t consider USAF thunderbirds & US National Guards & US Navy etc as American then you got serious national/ geographical problems.

The country flag you are showing is using this aircraft in large numbers... The F-16 block 50+ and 60 are not a 70s era plane my dear, they a 4.5 generation planes. I was hoping you knew better. talking more like an Indian than someone from Israel.

US is king of the hill in the modern Military technology and guards it very well. F-16 is no exception. the issue of the source code with Israel and the tracking deceives found in the crashed F-16s is one of the many examples how Americans jealously guard their technology and so rightly so.

F-16 is the work horse and front line fighter of many air forces in the world from east to west. If your 70s era taunt is to be considered then it makes the F-15 to fall from grace too although its current version can make a mince meat of any European or Russian jet that would be fielded against it.

by the way dont worry about it.

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## Jungibaaz

TheJewverine said:


> How does the F16 qualify as "high tech?"


Take the Block 60.... has technologies that 5th gen birds posses



> It hasn't been in use by the United States for a long time,


You got to be kidding me? Ever heard of the USAF? 



> you are talking about a plane that originally came out in the 70s.


Yes, and it would be wrong of you to assume that it hasn't changed.
If I recall, the F-15 was earlier then the F-16, what are your thoughts on the F-15 Silent eagle?



> Somehow I don't think the US is going to be too concerned about losing any "secret technologies" from a plane design that is older than most of the people on this forum...



F-16 Block 52s challenging US air supremacy, did anyone say that or you putting words in our mouths when it suits you best?

p.s. I suggest you compare the F-16 Block 60/IN on the basis of it's radar, avionics and weaponry, the way I see it, it's main and probably only limitation is it's airframe.

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## TheJewverine

Irfan Baloch said:


> I don&#8217;t understand why you decided that F-16 is no longer used by America. If you don&#8217;t consider USAF thunderbirds & US Navy etc as American then you got serious national/ geographical problems.
> 
> The country flag you are showing is using this aircraft in large numbers... The F-16 block 50+ and 60 are not a 70s era plane my dear, they a 4.5 generation planes. I was hoping you knew better. talking more like an Indian than someone from Israel.
> F-16 is the work horse and front line fighter of many air forces in the world from east to west. If your 70s era taunt is to be considered then it makes the F-15 to fall from grace too although its current version can make a mince meat of any European or Russian jet that would be fielded against it.
> 
> by the way dont worry about it.



1) Thunderbirds are US military forces? I guess if you consider doing tricks in the air at national fairs a military strike you could say that... 

2) The F16 has been improved in design over the years, but overall the plane is not cutting edge at all. It still has the same overall design, hence my comments.

3) I wasn't taunting the F16, I'm just saying that the plane itself/technology used in it is not anywhere near cutting edge. It's not as though the US sold it's new JSF to Pakistan, which is a plane that has technology that is still secretive. That was the point I was making.


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## proindian

pak viper post this on another forum on 6 august 2011
Air chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleman has officially announced that PAF has Requested for purchase of another batch of 18 Block 52+ F-16s. 

PAF sources confirmed that a reply in this regard is expected a few weeks time, and U.S approval is almost certain citing that this option of another buy was open to the PAF as and when desired.If all goes to plan, we are expected to receive these jets by the end of next year hopefully. 

Apart from this PAF is also seriously considering buying two squadrons of Norway F-16AM/BMs, in is plan of operating a fleet of 100 F-16s combined for next 15-20years.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-15934.html


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## Edevelop

TheJewverine said:


> How does the F16 qualify as "high tech?" It hasn't been in use by the United States for a long time, you are talking about a plane that originally came out in the 70s. Somehow I don't think the US is going to be too concerned about losing any "secret technologies" from a plane design that is older than most of the people on this forum...



How do you explain this:

Pakistani pilots flying modernised versions of the 1970s-vintage F-16 Falcon fighter have beaten the RAF's brand-new Eurofighter Typhoon superfighters during air combat exercises in Turkey, according to a Pakistani officer.
RAF Eurofighter Typhoons 'beaten by Pakistani F-16s' [printer-friendly] ? The Register
l
1988 May 17 - PAF F-16s shoot down two Russian Su-22s
over Parachinar area during Afghan war. 

1988 August 4 - PAF F-16 shoots down Russian Su-25 in
Miranshah area during Afghan war.

1988 September 12 - PAF F-16s shoot down two intruder Russian
Mig-23s during Afghan war

1988 November 1 - PAF F-16 shoots down an intruder Russian
Su-22 over Tull area during Afghan war

Imagine if our Block 15 could do all this, then what can Block 52 do? 
This is from Pakistan's side. Look at F-16 kills from different Air forces. F-16 is battle proven!!


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## Irfan Baloch

TheJewverine said:


> 1) Thunderbirds are US military forces? I guess if you consider doing tricks in the air at national fairs a military strike you could say that...
> 
> 2) The F16 has been improved in design over the years, but overall the plane is not cutting edge at all. It still has the same overall design, hence my comments.
> 
> 3) I wasn't taunting the F16, I'm just saying that the plane itself/technology used in it is not anywhere near cutting edge. It's not as though the US sold it's new JSF to Pakistan, which is a plane that has technology that is still secretive. That was the point I was making.



read your original post again but wait.. 
like I said earlier

dont worry about it


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## Irfan Baloch

cb4 said:


> How do you explain this:
> 
> Pakistani pilots flying modernised versions of the 1970s-vintage F-16 Falcon fighter have beaten the RAF's brand-new Eurofighter Typhoon superfighters during air combat exercises in Turkey, according to a Pakistani officer.
> RAF Eurofighter Typhoons 'beaten by Pakistani F-16s' [printer-friendly] ? The Register
> l
> 1988 May 17 - PAF F-16s shoot down two Russian Su-22s
> over Parachinar area during Afghan war.
> 
> 1988 August 4 - PAF F-16 shoots down Russian Su-25 in
> Miranshah area during Afghan war.
> 
> 1988 September 12 - PAF F-16s shoot down two intruder Russian
> Mig-23s during Afghan war
> 
> 1988 November 1 - PAF F-16 shoots down an intruder Russian
> Su-22 over Tull area during Afghan war
> 
> Imagine if our Block 15 could do all this, then what can Block 52 do?
> This is from Pakistan's side. Look at F-16 kills from different Air forces. F-16 is battle proven!!



I made a mistake by responding to his post.. he is just having fun lets give him a wide berth now.

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## Donatello

'The Jewverine' .....man....that name won't be seen here for long.....


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

NO MEAN NO NATO SUPPLY LINE THIS BRIBE ATTEMPT WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED SORRY

PAKISTAN > F16 BRIBE


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## RazPaK

I personally think we should move away from these F-whatever I am the son of a PAF engineer that worked on the Star-fighter, and my father feels the same way for the future of PAF.

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## Thorough Pro

Imran Khan said:


> yes its clear sir from day one and proved after f-16 images in TAI . but we have to take care only USA and bring back jets from them ASAP they change there minds like weather in muree



Weather in Murree changes like they change their minds and moods, weather is more pridctable these days I guess.


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## MZUBAIR

I cant trust, untilll we get them [F16s] and Pakistani Officials confirms it ....


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## Stealth

I think we never seen such example in the history of the world that any Military or govt belongs to any country buy weapons on the deal and allow enemy to kills its own people.

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## fatman17

PAF's original plan set in 1980 was for 110 a/c and are striving to achieve this.


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## fatman17

18 new F-16C/D cannot be delivered within one month. however 18 F-16C/D blk 40's can be transferred from EDA stocks on 'as is' basis.
so if the news is true, then it would be a combination of...

1-F16D - blk 52
3-F16A/B - blk 15MLU
14-F-16C/D - blk 40's (as USN still hasnt agreed to release the 14 F-16A's which were originally designated for PAF but were embargoed)

but before we jump for joy lets wait for DSCA announcement (if any)


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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> 18 new F-16C/D cannot be delivered within one month. however 18 F-16C/D blk 40's can be transferred from EDA stocks on 'as is' basis.
> so if the news is true, then it would be a combination of...
> 
> 1-F16D - blk 52
> 3-F16A/B - blk 15MLU
> 14-F-16C/D - blk 40's (as USN still hasnt agreed to release the 14 F-16A's which were originally designated for PAF but were embargoed)
> 
> but before we jump for joy lets wait for DSCA announcement (if any)



some are busy in sweet dreams sir please don't disturb them . honey block-52+ is on the way


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## ziaulislam

does USA have f-16s in EDA...they havnt yet started to induct f-35 ?


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## Mani2020

TheJewverine said:


> How does the F16 qualify as "high tech?" *It hasn't been in use by the United States for a long time*, you are talking about a plane that originally came out in the 70s. Somehow I don't think the US is going to be too concerned about losing any "secret technologies" from a plane design that is older than most of the people on this forum...



Till today the f-16s form a backbone of the USAF , around 1262 f-16s are in service with USAF and that is the largest number of any fighter with any arm of the US whether UN or USAF ...

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## pakfighter

america is not going to give F-16s in this tension.


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## Imran Khan

pakfighter said:


> america is not going to give F-16s in this tension.



we are not asking their but our own birds dear.

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## nomi007

good improvement


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## batmannow

actully, US of A is using this issue, as a bribe to our leaders, a credit that was won by them from US of A, so that they can make huge statments in public, & in press, at the same time our, leader ship, trun its eys from the, ever happening bloodsheed of pakistanis?


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## Peaceful Civilian

US is very clever. THE U.S Government and lockheed martin will try their best to secure more orders, and convince partner nations and the others to to buy the f-16, thus keeping 1000s of jobs secure,keeping the production line up and running, and earn millions this way.As They were running out of money for more F22s. So they offered F35 with Less technology and less stealth than original F22 so that same earned money could use for F22. Remember F35 max speed is 1.6 Mach. IMAO.

I am happy Pakistan is going for FC-20 and jf17.

No need to get more optional F16s. Just get those which are our property now and we already paid them.



Kisi ny sahi kaha hai, Goray Chalaak Qom hain, Kabhi itbaar na karo aor Chokannay raho her baar.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

nomi007 said:


> we have 63 f-16s now a day + 18 more
> but no mid air refueler for them
> 
> 
> ---------- Post added at 08:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 PM ----------




Actually we have 64 as of right now.


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## untitled

^^^ Those are American F-16s


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## SQ8

fatman17 said:


> 18 new F-16C/D cannot be delivered within one month. however 18 F-16C/D blk 40's can be transferred from EDA stocks on 'as is' basis.
> so if the news is true, then it would be a combination of...
> 
> 1-F16D - blk 52
> 3-F16A/B - blk 15MLU
> 14-F-16C/D - blk 40's (*as USN still hasnt agreed to release the 14 F-16A's which were originally designated for PAF but were embargoed*)
> 
> but before we jump for joy lets wait for DSCA announcement (if any)



The condition those airframes will be in makes it better to have other EDA jets.

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## nomi007

now ef-2020 will have cft


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## air marshal

*Today In History*

January 15, 1983: The first of two F-16As and four F-16B were flown to Sargodha by the six pioneers, with a young Squadron Leader Shahid Lateef (retd as Vice Chief of the Air Staff, PAF) grabbing the media's spotlight by landing the first F-16B (serial# 82602) aircraft. The first unit to re-equip with the F-16 in January 1983 was Sargodha based No. 11 'Arrows' Squadron, which by now was under the command of one of the six pioneers - Wing Commander Shahid Javed.

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## fatman17

fatman17 said:


> 18 new F-16C/D cannot be delivered within one month. however 18 F-16C/D blk 40's can be transferred from EDA stocks on 'as is' basis.
> so if the news is true, then it would be a combination of...
> 
> 1-F16D - blk 52
> 3-F16A/B - blk 15MLU
> 14-F-16C/D - blk 40's (as USN still hasnt agreed to release the 14 F-16A's which were originally designated for PAF but were embargoed)
> 
> but before we jump for joy lets wait for DSCA announcement (if any)



*Pakistan to receive surplus US F-16 fighters*


Gareth Jennings Aviation Desk Editor - London


Pakistan is set to receive a number of modified Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon combat aircraft over the coming months, the US Embassy in Islamabad has revealed. 


Pakistan looks set to receive a further 14 surplus F-16s from the US in the coming months.

According to a US Embassy statement issued in early January, "several ... F-16s purchased by Pakistan from the US are undergoing mid-life upgrades [MLU] and will arrive in Pakistan beginning in late January. Deliveries will continue throughout this year and next." 

While Pakistan is known to be waiting on the delivery later this month of the last of 18 new-build F-16C/D fighters ordered under the 'Peace Drive' I programme, there has been no clear statement on the status of upgraded legacy F-16 platforms due to be delivered. 

In July 2006 a US Defence Security and Cooperation Agency (DSCA) notification informed the US Congress of the possible sale of 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 fighters and 60 Falcon Star MLU kits: the proposed F-16C/D deal was later halved to the 18 jets currently being delivered. 

While some of the Falcon Star MLU kits are to be fitted to the Pakistan Air Force's existing F-16 inventory, 28 have been earmarked for ex-US Air Force F-16A/B (or perhaps early F-16C/D) aircraft to be donated to Pakistan at no cost (except for the cost of the upgrade and transportation to Pakistan). To date, only 14 surplus aircraft have been donated, with Pakistan waiting on the remaining 14 F-16s. 

In March 2011 Pakistani Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman confirmed that talks were taking place with Washington for the acquisition of the 14 outstanding F-16s and it is thought that the US Embassy's statement refers to these aircraft. 

Pakistan originally purchased F-16s from the US in the 1980s but delivery was suspended with 28 outstanding in 1989 by then President George HW Bush over Islamabad's nuclear weapons programme. In 1998 the US agreed to pay Pakistan compensation of USD325 million in cash and USD140 million worth of surplus wheat and soy for the outstanding aircraft. 


COMMENT 
The timing of this apparent agreement between the two countries for the release of the 14 F-16s is especially significant as it comes at possibly the lowest ebb in relations between the two countries. 

Following the air strike by US helicopters on a Pakistan Army position close to the Afghan border on 26 November 2011, the already fraught and dysfunctional relationship between the reluctant allies hit an all-time low with Pakistan closing its border with Afghanistan to US and NATO supply convoys. 

Despite US apologies over the incident, which left 26 Pakistani soldiers dead, Pakistan has so far rebuffed any overtures from Washington and, publically at least, steadfastly refuses any conciliation with its supposed partner in the war against the Taliban. 

With coalition forces set to end combat operations in Afghanistan by the end of 2014, the US military has already drawn up plans to ship its more than USD30 billion of equipment out of the Central Asian country. With the Pakistan border crossings providing the route in and out of Afghanistan for more than 30 per cent of NATOs equipment, Washington will be eager for a normalisation of relations with Islamabad as quickly as possible. 

Whether or not this F-16 deal is intended to help ease tensions between the US and Pakistan is unclear, but the arrival of additional fighters will no doubt go a long way to calming the waters between them.

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan to receive surplus US F-16 fighters*
> 
> 
> Gareth Jennings Aviation Desk Editor - London
> 
> 
> Pakistan is set to receive a number of modified Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon combat aircraft over the coming months, the US Embassy in Islamabad has revealed.
> 
> 
> Pakistan looks set to receive a further 14 surplus F-16s from the US in the coming months.
> 
> According to a US Embassy statement issued in early January, "several ... F-16s purchased by Pakistan from the US are undergoing mid-life upgrades [MLU] and will arrive in Pakistan beginning in late January. Deliveries will continue throughout this year and next."
> 
> While Pakistan is known to be waiting on the delivery later this month of the last of 18 new-build F-16C/D fighters ordered under the 'Peace Drive' I programme, there has been no clear statement on the status of upgraded legacy F-16 platforms due to be delivered.
> 
> In July 2006 a US Defence Security and Cooperation Agency (DSCA) notification informed the US Congress of the possible sale of 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 fighters and 60 Falcon Star MLU kits: the proposed F-16C/D deal was later halved to the 18 jets currently being delivered.
> 
> While some of the Falcon Star MLU kits are to be fitted to the Pakistan Air Force's existing F-16 inventory, 28 have been earmarked for ex-US Air Force F-16A/B (or perhaps early F-16C/D) aircraft to be donated to Pakistan at no cost (except for the cost of the upgrade and transportation to Pakistan). To date, only 14 surplus aircraft have been donated, with Pakistan waiting on the remaining 14 F-16s.
> 
> In March 2011 Pakistani Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman confirmed that talks were taking place with Washington for the acquisition of the 14 outstanding F-16s and it is thought that the US Embassy's statement refers to these aircraft.
> 
> Pakistan originally purchased F-16s from the US in the 1980s but delivery was suspended with 28 outstanding in 1989 by then President George HW Bush over Islamabad's nuclear weapons programme. In 1998 the US agreed to pay Pakistan compensation of USD325 million in cash and USD140 million worth of surplus wheat and soy for the outstanding aircraft.
> 
> 
> COMMENT
> The timing of this apparent agreement between the two countries for the release of the 14 F-16s is especially significant as it comes at possibly the lowest ebb in relations between the two countries.
> 
> Following the air strike by US helicopters on a Pakistan Army position close to the Afghan border on 26 November 2011, the already fraught and dysfunctional relationship between the reluctant allies hit an all-time low with Pakistan closing its border with Afghanistan to US and NATO supply convoys.
> 
> Despite US apologies over the incident, which left 26 Pakistani soldiers dead, Pakistan has so far rebuffed any overtures from Washington and, publically at least, steadfastly refuses any conciliation with its supposed partner in the war against the Taliban.
> 
> With coalition forces set to end combat operations in Afghanistan by the end of 2014, the US military has already drawn up plans to ship its more than USD30 billion of equipment out of the Central Asian country. With the Pakistan border crossings providing the route in and out of Afghanistan for more than 30 per cent of NATOs equipment, Washington will be eager for a normalisation of relations with Islamabad as quickly as possible.
> 
> Whether or not this F-16 deal is intended to help ease tensions between the US and Pakistan is unclear, but the arrival of additional fighters will no doubt go a long way to calming the waters between them.


good for us this will improve our defense
i hope pakistan soon have 100+ f-16 in his inventory


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## Abu Zolfiqar

TheJewverine said:


> How does the F16 qualify as "high tech?" It hasn't been in use by the United States for a long time, you are talking about a plane that originally came out in the 70s. Somehow I don't think the US is going to be too concerned about losing any "secret technologies" from a plane design that is older than most of the people on this forum...



coming from someone (claiming to be israeli)......the bulk of your air force consists of F-16 aircrafts as well, don't forget that.

if the US isnt concerned, why is israel concerned --especially about Sniper target pods which were meant for Egyptian Air Force --- a move which israel and its lobbyist groups objected to


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## ziaulislam

so are we getting more f-16s or not?


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## ziaulislam

this would be a big boast especially if they come out to be f-16c/ds that upgraded..we will i think then have a strength of approx 77/78 aircrafts..still quite some required to get to 100 mark.


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## Imran Khan

sir fatman link of your article please i wanna sher it but with link


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## farhan_9909

63+1
18 they agreed last week and 14 more now

and what about those 32 embargoed one back in 90'2?


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## SQ8

farhan_9909 said:


> 63+1
> 18 they agreed last week and 14 more now
> 
> and what about those *32 embargoed one back in 90'2?*



Part of the 63 and the coming 14

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## TOPGUN

Santro said:


> Part of the 63 and the coming 14



So Santro this means they are willing to release 14 vipers that were embargoed before or these are surplus USAF vipers?


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## BATMAN

TOPGUN said:


> So Santro this means they are willing to release 14 vipers that were embargoed before or these are surplus USAF vipers?



If they are than it is quite a surprise decision, which went unnoticed by the US senate.

In recent past, US did not permit Norway to sell their retired F-16 to Pakistan.


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## regular

I guess we need to forget about the F-16 game cuz it seems unproductive to me.....

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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> sir fatman link of your article please i wanna sher it but with link



its paid subscription

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## Mosamania

There is a reason why PAF buys F-16s. It will work flawlessly against India and is a very capable aircraft and it suits Pakistani requirements perfectly. Also to my Pakistani brothers here wither it is from US or China there will always be restrictions and sensitive technologies that can only be accessed by authorized personal. 

For instance before I sat down with someone close to military industry I objected to the Saudi F-15 deal along the same lines some of my brothers here have pointed out but I got to know that things are not at all what is made public and the myths of bugs and inability to lock in and other such theories. When any country sells an aircraft it is sold to a third party who is in between and that third party inspects your purchase and tests thoroughly "that's why before aircrafts are delivered they go to an airport or base and sits there for like a month before heading to it's home destination" that third party then delivers the aircraft which itself undergoes harsh testings by its operator air force to make sure it can be used in all fields of it's respective requirements.

I have to point out one thing though there is a difference between buying an aircraft outright and getting it through "Military aid" as the third party is canceled and access to inspect sensitive technology is gone with it. 

So if this aircraft is bought outright by Pakistan then the only worry is if in case of US "Sanctions" and country grade reduction it will lose access to buy spare parts for the aircraft will reduce operational reediness in times of conflict as the Airforce will be forced to cannibalize from other aircrafts. So in times of conflict operational readiness will go down from 80% to close to 60% in extreme cases.

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## killerx

PAF should spend money on JF17 and buying more jets from china insted of buying usa not reliable againt us  cant trust them any more


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## monitor

Pakistan to receive surplus US F-16 fighters

Gareth Jennings Aviation Desk Editor - London
Pakistan is set to receive a number of modified Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon combat aircraft over the coming months, the US Embassy in Islamabad has revealed. 


Pakistan looks set to receive a further 14 surplus F-16s from the US in the coming months.

According to a US Embassy statement issued in early January, "several ... F-16s purchased by Pakistan from the US are undergoing mid-life upgrades [MLU] and will arrive in Pakistan beginning in late January. Deliveries will continue throughout this year and next." 

While Pakistan is known to be waiting on the delivery later this month of the last of 18 new-build F-16C/D fighters ordered under the 'Peace Drive' I programme, there has been no clear statement on the status of upgraded legacy F-16 platforms due to be delivered. 

In July 2006 a US Defence Security and Cooperation Agency (DSCA) notification informed the US Congress of the possible sale of 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 fighters and 60 Falcon Star MLU kits: the proposed F-16C/D deal was later halved to the 18 jets currently being delivered. 

While some of the Falcon Star MLU kits are to be fitted to the Pakistan Air Force's existing F-16 inventory, 28 have been earmarked for ex-US Air Force F-16A/B (or perhaps early F-16C/D) aircraft to be donated to Pakistan at no cost (except for the cost of the upgrade and transportation to Pakistan). To date, only 14 surplus aircraft have been donated, with Pakistan waiting on the remaining 14 F-16s. 

In March 2011 Pakistani Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman confirmed that talks were taking place with Washington for the acquisition of the 14 outstanding F-16s and it is thought that the US Embassy's statement refers to these aircraft. 

Pakistan originally purchased F-16s from the US in the 1980s but delivery was suspended with 28 outstanding in 1989 by then President George HW Bush over Islamabad's nuclear weapons programme. In 1998 the US agreed to pay Pakistan compensation of USD325 million in cash and USD140 million worth of surplus wheat and soy for the outstanding aircraft. 


COMMENT 
The timing of this apparent agreement between the two countries for the release of the 14 F-16s is especially significant as it comes at possibly the lowest ebb in relations between the two countries. 

Following the air strike by US helicopters on a Pakistan Army position close to the Afghan border on 26 November 2011, the already fraught and dysfunctional relationship between the reluctant allies hit an all-time low with Pakistan closing its border with Afghanistan to US and NATO supply convoys. 

Despite US apologies over the incident, which left 26 Pakistani soldiers dead, Pakistan has so far rebuffed any overtures from Washington and, publically at least, steadfastly refuses any conciliation with its supposed partner in the war against the Taliban. 

With coalition forces set to end combat operations in Afghanistan by the end of 2014, the US military has already drawn up plans to ship its more than USD30 billion of equipment out of the Central Asian country. With the Pakistan border crossings providing the route in and out of Afghanistan for more than 30 per cent of NATOs equipment, Washington will be eager for a normalisation of relations with Islamabad as quickly as possible. 

Whether or not this F-16 deal is intended to help ease tensions between the US and Pakistan is unclear, but the arrival of additional fighters will no doubt go a long way to calming the waters between them.


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## TOPGUN

So its our old vipers A-B's that will be given to us in the amount of 14 aircraft am i correct on this?


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## BATMAN

TOPGUN said:


> So its our old vipers A-B's that will be given to us in the amount of 14 aircraft am i correct on this?



I cannot confirm it but if US deliver 14 F-16 in one year without asking, it would be a history in making.

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## abdulbarijan

BATMAN said:


> I cannot confirm it but if US deliver 14 F-16 in one year without asking, it would be a history in making.


When you have soldiers in Afghanistan having food and may i add diapers shortage etc with experts saying this


> Retired US general Barry McCaffrey told NBC News that he believed the coalition effort in Afghanistan was &#8220;one step short of a strategic crisis.&#8221;
> 
> &#8220;I do not believe we can continue operations at this rate,&#8221; he said. &#8220;So we&#8217;ve got to talk to them, we&#8217;ve got to pay them, we&#8217;ve got to apologise for this strike. We have no option, literally.&#8221;



Now for this kind of problems they need a solution....and this could be a part of their solution...

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## Storm Force

In reply to FARHAN.

_F-16 has edge over JFT II in range and payload
both are equal in agility
JFT has edge over F-16 in avionics.(JFT II) _

Which F16 model are you comparing JFT MK2 too.

The latest F16/52 which PAF has acquired is a $75m multi role fighter...

What is in MK2 JFT. nothing is known 

Thunder uses a chinease version of the russian MSA radar Zhuk ie KLJ7..

we have no definite info on chinease AESA at this stage its quite a few years away. 

Even the Russians & EADS of euro fighter claim there AESA is 5 years away from operational point.

With regards to Avionics i wud be gobsmaked if chinease tech is better than USA even F16/52 level which med range

---------- Post added at 02:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:32 PM ----------

PS before somebody beats up re my comment 

I am not saying JFT MK2 is bad or rubbish AT LEAST QUALIFY the remarks ie which model of F16 is JFT MK2 superir too AND WHY aND HOW 

not just a remark out of thin air 

(it is equal in quality) wat does this mean


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## ziaulislam

nope block52 with full gadgets is far superior to the block2 jf-17..a j-10 B thats expected to be operational in a few years from now may equal it.


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## soul hacker

Pakistan is receiving 18 new Block 52+ F-16s is false,It's 14 C/D surplus F-16s from American inventory being delivered to Pakistan alongwith MLU jets and 1 Block 52+ serial no. #10801.


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## Dazzler

What they forget to tell us is that these birds are used to death!


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## BATMAN

nabil_05 said:


> What they forget to tell us is that these birds are used to death!



In past, PAK army had refused mi-17 and RQ-7 from US due to poor condition and inferior tech.

PAF shall also refuse trash.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

@ Mosamania 

well stated....yes the nature of the relationship does play a role here, as we learned (the hard way) throughout the 1990s


hopefully such would not be repeated again, though there must always be CONTINGENCY plans


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## Dazzler

what you said may only be possible IF PAF selected airframes of her choice which seems very unlikely. Blk 30 & 40s are most widely, not to forget battle used frames that may have very small life left in their airframe. If treated with Falcon Star, then more time and money required. Anyways, lets wait and watch.

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## khanasifm

my guess, Italian f16 a/b model being sent to pak ?.. Same type engine pw 220E
, blk 30 , 40 has ge engine


http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-14748.html


MILAVIA Military Aviation Specials - Italian Air Force F-16 40,000 Flight Hours

9


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## Najam Khan

khanasifm said:


> my guess, Italian f16 a/b model being sent to pak ?.. Same type engine pw 220E
> , blk 30 , 40 has ge engine


No, we didn't received them...i think PAF received some spare engines in 80s and some after 2005. Thanks to PAC, they have upgraded them to -220E.


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## Aamir Hussain

Thank God someone came out and said something that was sane -- Thank you Mosamania.

I have always maintained that PAF is not full of idiots. It knows what can be achieved with which type of platform, for how long.
We on this forum, generally tend to think in terms of today or most, this year. For PAF there is a today, tomorrow and the legacy yesterday!!! It cannot wave a wand and do things that safeguard or cover all bases. 

It has to keep in perspective what it have in the inventory, what has been ordered, and what is needed in the future while keeping the enemy developments in sight, the platform evolution (all three: the current platforms, the ordered ones and any likely future platform), and the financial constraints in sight along with possible access/availability of various platforms.

One must admit, it is a tall order and a complex situation with numerous combinations and permutations to choose from. 

What PAF is doing:

High end fighter: F-16, A ten to fifteen year plus program.

Why: 

Money for new fighters paid and goods more or less received.
The legacy fleet upgrade program underway. Program certification and commercials agreed to, some of the payments made. 
Newly inducted fleet including trained pilots and weapons integration completed, more or less. 
Ground support equipment either already there or bought with the new deal. Already paid for.
This induction and operation will keep PAF at a reasonable force levels and quality. Furthermore, possibility to procure more a/c at minimal cost to enhance fleet levels is always there.

Mid range aircraft: JFT a fifteen to twenty five plus year program.

Why:
The platform has been built ground up, with PAF requirements in mind. 
Gives us the capability to get into base line R&D and serial production of higher performance aircrafts.
Lower cost replacement option for its legacy fleet as compared to European and US options (Russian options are off the table; likewise the European link is also out due to cost and Indian pressure).
Capacity for future growth in the basic airframe and configuration of the a/c.

Future High performance A/: FC 20 or a European/Russian design.

Why:
FC-20 induction was delayed due to development cost and integration of avionics and western weapons. 
PAF backed out of the immediate buy due to cost factors and delay in the roll out of the definitive version of the FC-20.
A more powerful Chinese power plant and western avionics remains a challenge and is also a question mark on the JFT as well. 

Broad baseline for decision making by PAF for the above force structure:

In hand cutting edge fighter with complete ability to maintain, train, service, and fly the full envelope. Tried and tested weapons and avionics, tactics, training &#8211; F16&#8217;s. Furthermore, money already invested in the orders, infrastructure etc. 

Investment done in JFT for R&D, future enhancements, and complete understanding of doctrine of deployment of the fighter. Already fully committed to the program. 

FC-20 remains an option; wait and see for the specs, given by PAF, to be incorporated into the plane. PAF does not want to go into and buy another platform with similar issues like JFT. Furthermore, funding remains a challenge. China might &#8220;Gift&#8221; some of these birds to PAF for in service evaluation. That remains an open question.

Due to the FC-20 issue; PAF might exercise options for getting more second hand F-16&#8217;s from US or other countries to supplement the higher performance force of 60 + planes at fraction of the cost of a new plane. Brand new Block 52&#8217;s+ are out of the equation as PAF cannot, at present, bear the cost of these birds. The situation can change if, let us say, KSA steps in an partially foots the bill. I do not think that will happen due to the heavy burden on KSA due to new orders. 

As far as the kill switches etc. They come into the equation if we go into an armed conflict like situaiton against the US. That gentlemen is another equation and than we will not be fighting conventional engagment for long -- there will be another dimension to the conflict that I dare visualise.

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## fatman17

nabil_05 said:


> what you said may only be possible IF PAF selected airframes of her choice which seems very unlikely. Blk 30 & 40s are most widely, not to forget battle used frames that may have very small life left in their airframe. If treated with Falcon Star, then more time and money required. Anyways, lets wait and watch.



if we do receive these 14 odd blk 40's, they will surely be MLU'ed in Turkey.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Duplicate post removing


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

These F16 are symbol of slavery from Americans , we should look forward to JF17 and J10B as our main strike force and build a magnificent Navy and 11,000 KM ICBM

a) USA launched attack on Pakistan at Abbotabad (regardless of what their intention was)
b) They routinely bomb our villages for suspected intelligence which is accurate as timing of Pakistan Railways schedule
c) They attacked and killed 30 Pakistani Soliders in attempted sign of no respect to our national interest


WE SHOULD SAY NO TO F16 of anykind and focus on a Tomorrow with out USA as partner untill their change their forigne policy and their President comes to Pakistan and shows some respect , and NOT DEMAND stuff.


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## Killswitch

Iran has been able to operate a large amount of American equipment despite sanctions since 1979.

If the f 16 is important, Pakistan can always use its manufacturing base to reverse engineer and build the spares like Iran has.


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## Imran Khan

Killswitch said:


> Iran has been able to operate a large amount of American equipment despite sanctions since 1979.
> 
> If the f 16 is important, Pakistan can always use its manufacturing base to reverse engineer and build the spares like Iran has.



but we are not gonna be iran dear nor USA leaving us alone and can't pakistan did like iran supply of parts is not an issue .even worse time of relations US still suppling pakistan f-16 .


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## Aamir Hussain

So what should we do? Ground all F-16's, order 60 odd J-10A's (Out of which fund -- I do not know -- offcourse we can now bank upon the largesse of China and creat another US-Pak like situation -- we are good at doing that). And for the next five years try to train our pilots, ground crews etc. and hope to be at par with where we were in 2012 as far as trainnig levels and employment envelope is concerned!!!!! Also in the process hope that the avionics and powerplant issues are resolved and all the goodies (Armaments) that we have already ordered are also incorporated in a jiffy on the new platform(s).

What are you guys sniffing these days???? One does not demonstrate hate for others by chopping off one's own foot!!! 

And in the process, once again put all our eggs in one basket. Sane decisions are needed and knee-jerk, jingoist moves will be counter productive, not only from the long term, but also the short term perspective.

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## All-Green

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> These F16 are symbol of slavery from Americans , we should look forward to JF17 and J10B as our main strike force and build a magnificent Navy and 11,000 KM ICBM
> 
> a) USA launched attack on Pakistan at Abbotabad (regardless of what their intention was)
> b) They routinely bomb our villages for suspected intelligence which is accurate as timing of Pakistan Railways schedule
> c) They attacked and killed 30 Pakistani Soliders in attempted sign of no respect to our national interest
> 
> 
> WE SHOULD SAY NO TO F16 of anykind and focus on a Tomorrow with out USA as partner untill their change their forigne policy and their President comes to Pakistan and shows some respect , and NOT DEMAND stuff.



So should we let go of F-16 because it is a symbol of slavery, discarding our practical constraints which dictate otherwise to at least keep these birds in service till we are beyond 2020.

Then i have a question for you, what symbolism is your avatar depicting if i may ask?
You are a fan of Top gun and so am I, no slavery in this.
If we see US movies and use US gadgets that is not slavery, similar is the case with US fighter Jets since they are not the reason we are strategically unable to exert ourselves properly.
Yes we can stop watching their movies and stop using Apple products and military products as a symbolic gesture, but will that still solve our problem?

Better off treat it as a a product and that's it, let us use it till other products are mature enough and then do not buy more, simple as that.

In our symbolic protest, we are not going to trash our US made gadgets, household items or clothes but let us instead ground our primary fighter jet.

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## Aamir Hussain

Right on the bat AG. Fully agree with you.


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## Dazzler

i know they will be MULed but my point was under in the context of structural fatigue which is a bit too much on these frames. Falcon Star will help to an extent but not much. Fatigued parts replaced/ overhauled but overall frame age will remain same. The point is, why to even bother to spend hard earned cash while having a dwindling economy, for more used F-16s when they are going to be replaced in a span of 8-12 years anyway (the old frames, obviously)? Wise thing is to go for brand new frames such as JFT and FC-20 that will serve for good 25-35 years with ease.

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## Imran Khan

how can in 10 years they are hell old air frames?


> In 2002, the US finally stopped trying to sell the aircraft and decided to assign them to the USAF and US Navy to fill the Aggressor role. After the demise of the (T)F-16N aggressor force, the US Navy lacked a high-performance aggressor aircraft. Because of the low airframe life of the embargoed Pakistani F-16s, these airframes were ideally suited for the demanding aggressor role. The 28 aircraft were thus evenly split between the USAF and the US Navy, and will take a vital role in DACT training of US forces.
> 
> After the attacks on 9/11 the Pakistani government became a major US ally in the war on terror. It was decided to redeliver those aircraft to Pakistan. Untill now, only half of them has been redelivered, with the remainder still to follow.


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## SQ8

Imran Khan said:


> how can in 10 years they are hell old air frames?



Ten years of rough usage..
Ten years of constant ACM training and dogfights will tear down an airframe like nobody's business.
Compared to that.. the earlier birds have been through normal wear and tear which is acceptable.

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## Dazzler

Imran Khan said:


> how can in 10 years they are hell old air frames?



US airforce logs more hours than any other airforce. As Santro said, an aircraft spending 10 years in USAF means it spent atleast 20 years in PAF.

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## A1Kaid

soul hacker said:


> Pakistan is receiving 18 new Block 52+ F-16s is false,It's 14 C/D surplus F-16s from American inventory being delivered to Pakistan alongwith MLU jets and 1 Block 52+ serial no. #10801.



Where did your learn that from, source?


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## A1Kaid

What do you guys think should PAF discontinue the F-16 program? Considering its critically dependent on the whims of the US policy makers.

Or is there still a strategic and technological advantage to get out of this?


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## Edevelop

soul hacker said:


> Pakistan is receiving 18 new Block 52+ F-16s is false,It's 14 C/D surplus F-16s from American inventory being delivered to Pakistan alongwith MLU jets and 1 Block 52+ serial no. #10801.



Well either way, we are still receiving 18.


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## Imran Khan

nabil_05 said:


> US airforce logs more hours than any other airforce. As Santro said, an aircraft spending 10 years in USAF means it spent atleast 20 years in PAF.



even 20 years sir not bad then our old 28 years old .


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## Dazzler

After the lost 90s and enlightened 2000s where we saw materialization of JFT project, we should have shelved the F-16 program for good but.....


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## Imran Khan

nabil_05 said:


> After the lost 90s and enlightened 2000s where we saw materialization of JFT project, we should have shelved the F-16 program for good but.....



its last batch sir let them come we can use them little in peace time and fully if any war time i think its good they give us 14 more and total numbers will get better too.


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## r0ck

I think the respectable Think Tanks are looking this from an acute angle. This is causing a bit of a confusion among the masses. The reasons for upgrading / acquiring F16s have been prescribed more in the lines of expert level of ground crew, support staff, pilots, training etc, which obviously make sense. More so, had they just said another word, a lot of the usual questions about such reasons might have been avoided, 'helplessness'. So I'll just enlighten people on my take for the reasons for upgrading / acquiring F16s.

We are helpless, people. We haven't got any other option. We weren't far sighted enough to perceive that we shouldn't place all our eggs in one basket. We didn't think that one day we'll have to bend over so much, even for acquiring shackled versions of the jets which we like to think, in lethality terms, would be on par with equivalent jets of the USAF but at the same time we weren't 100% sure about it either. We trained so, insensibly, much on this platform that there's no going back now. As much as we want to say that we're very good and one of the best on this 'foreign' jet, we are infact now hampered by it's 'foreign'ness. 

Nevertheless, we have rectified our shortcomings, and in the coming decade are trying to diversify our 'primary fighter jet' roles. This would not be easy of course. But with good effort we shall accomplish our objective. As always, your support to our cause is pivotal. In the meantime, we are looking to carry on with the 'foreign' jet, so to best utilise our existing resources and models. 

With that sorted, I suppose the remainder of the usual questions would involve intruguing inquisitions about this jet just being a fancy paperweight against anyhting western or how can the PAF ensure that even for our traditional adversary this would offer the 'full suite' of electronics, upgraded or otherwise. Well, on that front I haven't got a clue and I don't know anybody who does. But considering it's a military platform provided by the US, it can reasonably be ascertained that this would very much be hampered in certain cases. But then again, we'd just have to live with this disabled jet, even if we never find out where the actual disability is.

I think this is a much wider or sort of comfortable angle to look the situation from.

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## SQ8

A1Kaid said:


> What do you guys think should PAF discontinue the F-16 program? Considering its critically dependent on the whims of the US policy makers.
> 
> Or is there still a strategic and technological advantage to get out of this?


 


nabil_05 said:


> After the lost 90s and enlightened 2000s where we saw materialization of JFT project, we should have shelved the F-16 program for good but.....



The F-16 program was the quickest way to maintain a critical strike ability for our AF.
Our JF's are good but their scope of operations is limited to over or airspace or just over the FLOT.
Till the advent of the ROSE program our F-16's were the only aircraft that were capable of taking the fight into the eastern threat and it is only the F-16's that will still have some hope of a successful strike and a RTB.
Even with the JF-17 batch III which will be a very potent platform(vis a vis the block 52's) the upgraded F-16's we will have are 80 or so assets capable of causing severe damage to the enemy over THEIR territory and coming back to be able to repeat that.

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## ziaulislam

i think guys here have to understand one think...no matter what u do the terrorist will strike you, they dont care whats your relationship with the US, they simply want to establish their own law in FATA and adjoining areas..as long as afghn remains a hard location due to US presence terrorism will continue.

so its better option for us to co operate and gain from US relationship rather than fight this menace alonebut that doesnt mean we should surrender ourselves and allow them to do drone attacks.

reason why terrorism still prevail is failure of govt ..govt has absoultely no ban on fertilizer buying or procurement..thus making bombs is a piece of cake..there is no law in FATA thus giving the terrorist a unlimited troops..govt has to change this

it would have been better than PAF had gone for mirages2000 in 80s but now the only viable option is F-16. we cant let go of them. It depends how you look at it, *if for you every trade like f-16 one is slavery than every country is a salve of every other country.* 
pakistan should try to increase its f-16s to about a 100 or so, with good diplomacy we can acheive that ..in my opinion we can even skip j-10 then and go directly to j-2xx use thunder f-16 mix

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## ziaulislam

nabil_05 said:


> After the lost 90s and enlightened 2000s where we saw materialization of JFT project, we should have shelved the F-16 program for good but.....


actually in musahraf era when war in terror was seemingly a very lengthy war , with changing trends and acceptance of pakistan nuclear programme by west there was little chance of a full scale sanction that would hurt f-16 programme. at that time in 2004 f-16 was the only viable option to counter growing indain strength..the decision was thus made to get f-16s, as there was no other option there.

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## HAIDER

Why our nation is so emotional, is our politicians knows how to manipulate them. Our nation really need some mind moderation therapy.


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## Aamir Hussain

This is what our countrymen do not understand. They always question -- Were there any suicide bombings before 9/11? As if fundamentalism just spawned in our country the day US troops came into Afghanistan. We were going down this road atleast couple of decades before the event and would still be there couple of decades from now if we do not stop fooling ourselves and realize the mess we have pushed ourselves into. 

We can look at things from an acute or a wider angle but the fact remains, ground reality today, t oa large extent, dictates our future. We can start making preperations to hedge our bets - that is good. But once again the fact remains that our top of the line fighter today is F-16 and no other fighter that we can lay our hands in the short while can replace the force with the same quality and quantity in medium term. 

We need to manage our relations with other countries not based upon for and against the F-16 but from more wider angel (As you put it). An angle that looks at things through the whole spectrum and not just military and aid related issues.

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## Aamir Hussain

Haider Sahib, unfortunately it is not just politicians that manipulates our masses but our masses also now love to be manipulated! Most of our folks just do not have the guts to stand up and say the right thing. We have slowly turned into a nation of hypocrites of the highest order. There is a clear "Tazaad" in our words and actions.

To me it seems that our nation is hell bent on committing suicide as a result of acute Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.

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## MastanKhan

Aamir Hussein,

I don't wonder anymore about how thoughtless my brethren are---this question about ' we didnot have suicide bombings before this'----we can't even decipher that---our quotient of intelligence and reasoning has gone so low---one begins to wonder at the sanity of their minds and thoughts---.

The bombings didnot happen because they were doing it to the others----once you put a lid to their activities and tried to control them---they turned their venom on you---.

Which brings out an old saying---when you want to cut the relationship of the past dealing---you better slay you 'blood hounds' when you had the oppurtunity---otherwise they will come and hound you the only way they know how.

We went on this road the day we condoned suicide bombings---decades ago---we considered it to be okay as long as it is doneto the opponent---not realizing that once this viscious beast is un-leashed---it will turn on you in a moment of wild rage.

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## Jango

Aamir Hussain said:


> There is a clear "Tazaad" in our words and actions.



Sohail Warraich, 'kiya yeh khula tazaad nhn'!!!

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## Pfpilot

I still think a huge problem with our nation remains our complete lack of flexibility. Friendships and adversaries are merely byproducts of self serving interests and that makes the world a very dynamic place. 
Pakistanis remain completely obsessed with the Indian threat; one which the introduction of nukes eliminated in its worst case scenario. More so, as a nation destined for global relevance, they have little interest in jeopardizing their long term prosperity to fight a war with a nation(Pakistan) that will probably destroy itself long before any enemy tries, if we continue down this path.
Our focus needs to be on the real problem facing us: terrorists of all ideologies must be destroyed; there is no such thing as a good terrorist and a bad terrorist...in the end, when they can't kill others anymore, they will start killing us. When one is indoctrinated into a killing machine, these people will hardly go back to a peaceful life after the US leaves Afghanistan. So regardless of the relevance f-16s have against India, we need them against the terrorists. The more high tech the equipment, the less likely our people will die at the hands of these misguided souls. Who cares if they are unlikely to be relevant against India; we need to worry about keeping our nation alive, because right now, it is on life support.

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## air marshal

*L-3 Link Simulation & Training to Upgrade Pakistan Air Force F-16 Aircrew Training Devices*

(Source: L-3 Link; issued January 19, 2012)

ARLINGTON, Texas -- L-3 Link Simulation & Training (L-3 Link) announced today that it has been awarded a contract modification from the U.S. Air Force to upgrade two Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16C Block 52 Aircrew Training Devices (ATDs) with the company&#8217;s new SimuSphere HD-9 visual system display.

This award represents the first use of SimuSphere HD-9 on training devices that will be delivered to a foreign nation.

L-3 Link&#8217;s SimuSphere HD-9, which incorporates the full capabilities of the company&#8217;s HD World integrated simulation product line, will provide PAF F-16 pilots with an increased level of tactical training realism. High-definition databases, image generators and the SimuSphere HD-9 visual display will combine to create a highly realistic and relevant training environment over a geo-specific visual system database of Pakistan. The F-16C Block 52 ATDs, scheduled for delivery in 2013, will be installed and networked at Shahbaz Air Base.

&#8220;This award demonstrates the value that SimuSphere HD-9 will bring to military fast jet training,&#8221; said Leonard Genna, president of L-3 Link. &#8220;SimuSphere HD-9, combined with the trainers&#8217; overall HD World capabilities, will allow Pakistan Air Force F-16 pilots to gain training credit equivalent to live training.&#8221;

SimuSphere HD-9 also provides a low-cost upgrade to trainers currently integrated with L-3 Link&#8217;s SimuSphere visual displays, in addition to offering a cost-effective option for any fast jet simulator.

The PAF&#8217;s F-16C Block 52 ATDs will support new pilot, pilot conversion and advanced skills training. The trainers will incorporate L-3 Link&#8217;s simulated Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System, enabling pilots to practice control of aircraft targeting systems and sensors. In addition, pilots will be able to wear their own night vision goggles when conducting simulated nighttime missions.

The two F-16C Block 52 ATDs will be supported by one mission support system, and each simulator will also have a dedicated instructor/operator station.


L-3 Link is the leading provider of F-16 simulators worldwide. Since the 1970s, the company has delivered approximately 140 F-16 training devices in support of the U.S. Air Force, Air National Guard and 10 foreign nations. L-3 Link Simulation & Training is a world leader in providing total training solutions for operators and maintainers across a wide range of military platforms and air traffic control systems.

The company has delivered military training systems to customer locations throughout North America, Europe, Asia and the Pacific Rim. L-3 Link is headquartered in Arlington, Texas, with key bases of operation in Binghamton, N.Y.; Orlando, Fla.; Oklahoma City, Okla.; Broken Arrow, Okla.; and Phoenix, Ariz. 

L-3 Link Simulation & Training to Upgrade Pakistan Air Force F-16 Aircrew Training Devices

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## Aamir Hussain

We never took advantage or encashed the dividend from going nuclear -- I wonder why? Our international orientation should have changed from just India to a more wider perspective on our international relations.

The bottom line is that we are debating the efficacy of F-16 when going against the US top line fighters!!! There is something very wrong with the equation here -- are we planning for a doomsday scenario? Or have a death wish that we desperately want to enact -- I wonder why we are so eager to go into a conflict with the lone super-power??? is it a slow brianwash to push for a conflict with US as part of a "Means to an End" game play. I do not know -- but the more I talk to people these days, the stronger my feeling of a single minded eagerness to prepare for the inevitable -- an armed conflict with US!

Let us debate another scenario, let us say all our fighter a/c, by magic, are now non-US supplied, do we seriously think that we can take on the USN, and USAF and hold our own by defeating them in the air??? Let us seriously do a re-check. 

I think the debate of going F-16 or JFT or the FC20/J-10 from our perspective is linked with our future foreign policy. 

I think that the force structure as envisaged by PAF, given the resources and our current foreign policy limitations, is purely geared up to deal with the threat from the east and nothing more. Therefore, the "F-16" equation is relevant to them and not so obvious to a lot of us as maybe some of the folks are contemplating on taking out Uncle Sam!!! If so, even the J-10 is at thsi pointin time incapable! The only equation is using the nuclear option. But then maybe we want it so.....

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The major problem that our country has had is that we have a habit of forgetting stuff with mere 1-2 F16 handover.

After 1999 why did our foreign policy did not shift to more global perspective. On global stage why do we need to have permission from other nations , prior to engaging into Business, military relations. This is not freedom

When ever we try to enact anything close to a free "decision" be it a gas pipeline or a port like Gwadar , we are looked upon by suspicion , yet we allow other nations to open "Air basis" and hidden CIA offices (Calling these as Embassy extension)

We have Transfer of technology on Fighter jets , Railway engines, Submarines, Frigates and even auto so why do we continue to purchase or attain these assets from others. 

In 80's the news use to be in newspapers, that people used to tell government to invest into engines, and technological knowledge yet the government use to decide that no we will purchase these items from USA , as its cheaper and quick "solution" 


The decision to acquire "quick" solution is indeed the big problem of our country that we always look for the "easy" way out instead of saying - we will make a stand and "this time" find a permenent solution 

No more Master - Slave relation 

No sovereign country ever allows bombing on its borders or insider its nation and stay quite never happened in history before


To answer your question can we take on "Any Enemy" regardless of their name , well the whole point of having a free country is that you have a belief that you would 

Pakistan needs

a) De-fence Pacts 
b) 11,000 ICBM projects 
c) Strong Navy 
d) 300 new fighter jets on top of JF17 thunder 
e) Expansion of military basis

We need a foreign policy to 

a) Secure our rights to water
b) Secure our stolen land
c) Raise GDP 
d) Do business with countries to get cheaper oil 
e) Develop a uninfluenced government
f) Display correct Pakistan Map in world map books / google 

Its almost like , we can eat honey - and milk now but we insist on eating stale milk from our fridge because we were told to by someone passing by street


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## Imran Khan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The major problem that our country has had is that we have a habit of forgetting stuff with mere 1-2 F16 handover.
> 
> After 1999 why did our foreign policy did not shift to more global perspective. On global stage why do we need to have permission from other nations , prior to engaging into Business, military relations.
> 
> When ever we try to enact anything close to a free "decision" be it a gas pipeline or a port like Gwadar , we are looked upon by suspicion , yet we allow other nations to open "Air basis" and hidden CIA offices (Calling these as Embassy extension)
> 
> We have Transfer of technology on Fighter jets , Railway engines, Submarines, Frigates and even auto so why do we continue to purchase or attain these assets from others.
> 
> In 80's the news use to be in newspapers, that people used to tell government to invest into engines, and technological knowledge yet the government use to decide that no we will purchase these items from USA , as its cheaper and quick "solution"
> 
> 
> The decision to acquire "quick" solution is indeed the big problem of our country that we always look for the "easy" way out instead of saying - we will make a stand and "this time" find a permenent solution
> 
> No more Master - Slave relation
> 
> No sovereign country ever allows bombing on its borders or insider its nation and stay quite never happened in history before
> 
> 
> To answer your question can we take on "Any Enemy" regardless of their name , well the whole point of having a free country is that you have a belief that you would
> 
> *Pakistan needs
> 
> a) De-fence Pacts
> b) 11,000 ICBM projects
> c) Strong Navy
> d) 300 new fighter jets on top of JF17 thunder
> e) Expansion of military basis*




wrong wrong wrong 

Pakistan need education 

better health facilities 

stop poking nose in other countries

crush extremism 

corruption free

better govt

political changes

F.POLICY changes

end BS in neighbors like iran afg india groups

and finally dont damn make Pakistan a security state it was welfare Islamic state till 1980

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well in any FREE country , a country free of influence , such as Turkey or Iran there are two aspects 

1) Civilian Government Internal Policies
2) Foreign Policies

So your point is valid we need schools , hospitals , and roads but you are confusing that with foreign policy every free nation has both these elements as separate entities. 

But this is something that has to be done by civilian internal policies it has *nothing to do with our foreign policies* or national defence

I don't feel that when we talk of independence in our defence or having defence pacts that our internal civilian policies should be confused with these elements


What we need for success of our internal national interest is 

a) Higher Pay for civilians 
b) Taxation system 
c) Lowering of food prices 
d) Reduction in exports of food , and raising food prices for stuff being sold to Middle east 
while keeping prices low in Pakistan. 

Example: Price of Gasoline in Saudia is same as it was 20 years ago not a penny increase


The F16 are part of our foreign policy , but they also effect our civilians 
as we decide to overlook CIA bombing or money being funneled into groups like Jandula or god know which people who are doing the bombings in Pakistan on Sui Gas lines etc


Our real enemies are the ones who are supplying money to these people may it be CIA or anyone else 

Shut down US embassy and 80% of bombings in Pakistan will be closed with in 3-4 months time

Or get US to sign a pact that if our courts determine a US citizen has killed a Pakistani citizen , we can send a F16 into USA to bomb someone in California and come back .... and lets see what USA would say to such a proposal

We are their EQUALS no ?? or we slaves to US


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## Aamir Hussain

There are no "Equals" out there. There is a big difference between haves and have not's. That is hard lesson to digest for most of us. But the hard reality is that to be treated with respect, one has to make some hard choices and above all respect yourself first.

We have been double dealing on almost all areas for now close to three decades and have really made a hash out of it. Others, to a large extent also do the same in the course of interantional politiking, but they do it with carefull caution and review the pressure points and change their "Game" often to adjust to on ground changing situation.We just do not do this. It seems our play book was written somewhere in the late 70's and like our teachers, we keep on teachnig from the same, couple of decade old, notes.

The faster we get out of this "Equal" syndrome the better it is for us.

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## Aamir Hussain

To do all this -- first need to realign ourselves. Another list for that needs t obe tackled if we want to really do the things you outlined in your post:

1. Let go of the Jihadi Infrastructure
2. Obssession with India must be ditched
3. From a security oriented state to a development oriented apporach needs to implemented.
4. Reform the education ciriculum to a balanced education.
5. Realign ourselves with those whome we trade with-- they, at present are our lifline.
6. Work to make our societywith more tolerance.

etc.....

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## fatman17

pl stick to F16's and not the economy here

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## Pak_Sher

This planes should strengthen the PAF. US makes great figther aircraft. PAF should also continue to invest in local programs like the JF-17 and JF-17 Block II.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Extra f16 are not needed ...


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## Edevelop

This is why we love F-16s:


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## Aamir Hussain

Let the PAF decide as to what they want or do not want. You and I are not competent to give verdicts on that -afterall they have to deliver, we do not!;-)

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

A heroine addict never admits they have a problem , but a person who is not addicted can easily see that drugs and bribes are not good for anyone`s health. 

PAF job is to protect the airspace not take gifts form enemy

Accepting gifts for F16 is quite disturbing considering what happened just few weeks and months back 

So based on that basic principle I can`t admire the F16 specially the 18 recent announcement


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## umair86pk

F-16 is an aerodynamics marvel thats why its still in production and has proved a successful program. It was light years ahead of its time when first introduced and still is a great plane with the capablities it offers highly reliable only issue is its manufacturing country which is unreliable and a back stabber.


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## Aamir Hussain

AP2009 give solid suggestionson on how to overcome dependance on the F16 and maintain the same quality and force quantity in say,a year? And kindly stop giving stupid analogies which have nothing to do with what we are dicussing.


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## BATMAN

http://www.link.com/pdfs/SimuSphere_HD_data_sheet_08.pdf







F 16 Simusphere HD - YouTube

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well I feel that a solid way to move forward with cutting dependency on F16 is instead of getting the planes we should seek transfer of technology used in F16.

The odd 18 fighters don't really give or add anything susbtantial to our forces. 

I would be more interested to see us aquire skills as developing the 360 view from cockpit or perhaps Avioniocs package software would be ideal from my prespective 

The planes themselves represent a symbolic gesture 

Ideally , what first needs to happen is that we should get an apology and a substantial package from USA for soliders , not weapons or fighter jets , a financial package for families of the soliders. 

a) Financial package for solider's family 
b) Free education and medical coverage for their families 
c) Formal Apology for mistake and action taken against the culprits

The F16 , while its a symbolic gesture , it really does not helps with our understanding

Numerically we have 

45 MLU
18 F16C/D
18 F16C/D final batch 

Numerically its a addition but , the right thing to do was stated above

I think we are sending the wrong signal , to Americans if we accept weapons in return for their mistake or misadventures


We already have cut down our dependence with arrival of JF17 Thunder , and 50 Block 2 from China

And supply routes will remain closed , unfortunately there is no revision on that , otherwise it would be a major national security risk


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## TOPGUN

Vipers are here to stay in PAF ... PAF knows what its doing it is one of the best airforces in the world and will always remain so. So plz let them do their job which they do quiet well they know what they need and what they don't .


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## BATMAN

TOPGUN said:


> Vipers are here to stay in PAF ... PAF knows what its doing it is one of the best airforces in the world and will always remain so. So plz let them do their job which they do quiet well they know what they need and what they don't .



F-16 have range and engine advantage over JFT, while technology wise it loose from JFT.

If PAF goes for new F-16, it would only be because of free and fast deliveries. 

No wise man in PAF would support buying blk-52, while ignoring JFT blk-2.


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## ziaulislam

unfortunately china is no whrere near USA in the avioncics field yet..it would take atleat few years for china to reach the level of avionics used in F-16Blck52....


----------



## regular

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The major problem that our country has had is that we have a habit of forgetting stuff with mere 1-2 F16 handover.
> 
> After 1999 why did our foreign policy did not shift to more global perspective. On global stage why do we need to have permission from other nations , prior to engaging into Business, military relations. This is not freedom
> 
> When ever we try to enact anything close to a free "decision" be it a gas pipeline or a port like Gwadar , we are looked upon by suspicion , yet we allow other nations to open "Air basis" and hidden CIA offices (Calling these as Embassy extension)
> 
> We have Transfer of technology on Fighter jets , Railway engines, Submarines, Frigates and even auto so why do we continue to purchase or attain these assets from others.
> 
> In 80's the news use to be in newspapers, that people used to tell government to invest into engines, and technological knowledge yet the government use to decide that no we will purchase these items from USA , as its cheaper and quick "solution"
> 
> 
> The decision to acquire "quick" solution is indeed the big problem of our country that we always look for the "easy" way out instead of saying - we will make a stand and "this time" find a permenent solution
> 
> No more Master - Slave relation
> 
> No sovereign country ever allows bombing on its borders or insider its nation and stay quite never happened in history before
> 
> 
> To answer your question can we take on "Any Enemy" regardless of their name , well the whole point of having a free country is that you have a belief that you would
> 
> Pakistan needs
> 
> a) De-fence Pacts
> b) 11,000 ICBM projects
> c) Strong Navy
> d) 300 new fighter jets on top of JF17 thunder
> e) Expansion of military basis
> 
> We need a foreign policy to
> 
> a) Secure our rights to water
> b) Secure our stolen land
> c) Raise GDP
> d) Do business with countries to get cheaper oil
> e) Develop a uninfluenced government
> f) Display correct Pakistan Map in world map books / google
> 
> Its almost like , we can eat honey - and milk now but we insist on eating stale milk from our fridge because we were told to by someone passing by street


Plus Pakistan needs to replace the USA as the worlds super power.......


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## regular

Imran Khan said:


> [/B][/COLOR]
> 
> wrong wrong wrong
> 
> Pakistan need education
> 
> better health facilities
> 
> stop poking nose in other countries
> 
> crush extremism
> 
> corruption free
> 
> better govt
> 
> political changes
> 
> F.POLICY changes
> 
> end BS in neighbors like iran afg india groups
> 
> and finally dont damn make Pakistan a security state it was welfare Islamic state till 1980


Plus Pakistan shold be on top of USA in every technology, shold not be its slave but instead shold be its master......Pakistan needs to takes the place of USA as a worlds policeman. USA needs to get retirement now from its worlds policeman job, cuz its very old now and nobody listen to it nomore........


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## Nishan_101

Although you are quite right about the fact that those embargo 28 F-16s were really pushed to their structural limits and even after the over haul their life won't be like the new ones. As we have heard that U.S have gave back us the money of those 28 F-16s in terms of Palm Oil, so it would be a great idea to go for the 50-70 J-10/J-10S instead of older 28 F-16s and even the most criticized 18 F-16 Block-52s and more over they can order more like another 50-70 J-10B/J-10BS. Although I agree on the upgrade of the current fleet we should be of 31 F-16A/B Block-15, they can upgrade 10 in U.S and the rest 21 F-16s in Turkey. Think over!


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

F16 can't even come close to Prototype version of J10B , just look at how fantastic the bird looks loaded and ready to defence Pakistan and China 

But F16 will just offer a small neumerical addition very minute .. almost like salt in Pot of soup ... 

Great so we have 
48 MLU 
18 Block C/D (Night Enabled Fighters)
18 Block C/D (Night Enabled Fighters) 

84 Fighter Planes , flown by 80-120 pilots 

A very small benefit short term 

I am personally waiting for J20B to bring Honor and a NEW 2010 Bird into Pakistan Airforce

I hope that our airforce does not retires 30-40 Mirages untill its verified that the F16 fighters can operate with out hinderance from Electronic warfare 

Its a big security risk to fly F16 , unless it can be verified by Independent investigation that these fighters are safe to fly


I mean what is the point of having a sword that cannot cut a melon ? 
Untill Pakistan replaces the avionics on F16 with Turkish versions , I don't trust F16 and software running on it


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## soul hacker

PAF bought two of them from L-3 Link.

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## nomi007

when more 18 f-16s are coming


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> when more 18 f-16s are coming



if you read US Embassy Bulletin, you will get the answer


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## [--Leo--]

fatman17 said:


> if you read US Embassy Bulletin, you will get the answer



it says late january but today is 25 we have to wait 4 days more?


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## Najam Khan

[--Leo--];2526562 said:


> it says late january but today is 25 we have to wait 4 days more?


If you are asking about MLUs...all i can say is that there are 31 days in January...thats all


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## White Lightning

Pakistan F-16 pilots to world PILOTS IS THE BEST.....

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## Najam Khan

Pictures after F-16's induction ceremony - Jan15 1983.

Pic 1: L-to-R Sami Tuur, Shahid Lateef, Shahid Javed, President Gen Zia-ul-Haq, ACM Anwar Shamim(CAS), Ali K Khattak, M. 

Avais and Muzzafar Ali. 

Pic2: Air Cdre Farooq F. Khan( then base cmdr Sargodha - later CAS) and ACM Anwar Shamim and their ladies. On their right is AVM Sharbat Ali Changazi. 

On an unrelated note, Anwar Shamim has narrated complete details of arguments of choosing F-16 over Tigershark/Mirage-2000 in his book *'Cutting Edge PAF'*.












Some random shots from Mushaf AB.

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## nomi007

still no sign of more f-16s


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## Last Hope

They are on their way. Might be late due to some traffic.





On a serious note, we aren't aware if they have arrived or not. We will be told officially, *after the induction ceremony.*


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## DANGER-ZONE

>


Because of the man in the middle, we have F-16 is our inventory. He also Asked for Apachies & E-3 but that was too much for uncle Sam. Then they killed him in Plane crash. 
RIP Gen-Zia, truly a Pakistani Patriot.

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## blain2

soul hacker said:


> PAF bought two of them from L-3 Link.



Mig-29 simulated at 1:29-30.


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## monitor



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## untitled

monitor said:


>



Gun port appears blackened.... must be coming from an exercise

The devil is something I don't want to be associated with


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## nomi007

NAS Fort Worth on December 15th, 2009

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## SBD-3




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## nomi007

hasnain0099 said:


>


good information

---------- Post added at 01:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:22 PM ----------






hope soon we will have atleast 5 of these

---------- Post added at 01:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------


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## nomi007

http://ninjacloak.com/index.php/1010110A/554ce98f081b707572f4fcb171adad800c763921885a0b68cce4af120d104a69dd26ac210529afc19c4a49ccef1fda9e0d1484bab8a88338330a0e9e2a130869a633f3d69c851c04d53315087
check this image


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## [--Leo--]

times up today is 31 january and we didn't recive single of them dam i was waiting very badly

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## TOPGUN

Hopefully we will hear some good news soon.. and if not then fig the rest out as usual lets see how we get treated this time.


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## MZUBAIR

I hope now PAF should never consider F16....

JF17 is the best choice....they shld focus on blk II


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## regular

I guess we are real stupid, alwayz hoping goodwill from the USA and get stabbed as usual....I guess we shold forget USA's F-16nz anymore......needs to focus on JF-17 block-II.......


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## DANGER-ZONE

MZUBAIR said:


> I hope now PAF should never consider F16....
> 
> JF17 is the best choice....they shld focus on blk II


 


regular said:


> I guess we are real stupid, alwayz hoping goodwill from the USA and get stabbed as usual....I guess we shold forget USA's F-16nz anymore......needs to focus on JF-17 block-II.......



I guess you people are considering wrong thing because PAF ain't stopping it any way. She might need a Harder Kick from USA to realize it. 
But on the other hand we do need some old birds or retired birds for spare parts to keep our current fleet flying for 10 - 20 years. Thats why we need a few more dozen old F-16s. Thats why PAF is considering more old F-16s or else our F-16 would be like Iranian F-14s of today, by 20 years later.


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## SQ8

Please do not make one liner posts just for the heck of it..the Whatever thread is there just for that.
Surprising that some ex-good members have suddenly lost their quality.

And the F-16's are a part of our plans for the near future.. and may still continue to be our leading edge beyond 2016.

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## Last Hope

One more thing that must be cleared is, these aren't any new F-16s. 4 are MLU-ed and 14 are ones we paid for but never received as promised.

Nothing is new here.


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## regular

Oscar said:


> Please do not make one liner posts just for the heck of it..the Whatever thread is there just for that.
> Surprising that some ex-good members have suddenly lost their quality.
> 
> And the F-16's are a part of our plans for the near future.. and may still continue to be our leading edge beyond 2016.


Yes! PAF got no choice but to keep on running the older F-16nz and Iam not seeing anything positive from USA perspective.....


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## nomi007

what is the future of our f-16s when india choose rafale


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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> what is the future of our f-16s when india choose rafale



they will fly as they fly before i think so . as planes have no brains to decide or think


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## ghazi52

Imran Khan said:


> they will fly as they fly before i think so . as planes have no brains to decide or think


 USA might put some brain not to fight / panga with brother rafale ( NATO ).


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## Dazzler

First MLU with Last of Blk 52s found on lages......will land here soon. 


Fórum|Aviação Portugal - Ver um Único Post - Movimentos das Lajes - Açores (LPLA/TER)

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## Imran Khan




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## Last Hope

Oh wow. Finally 10-801 is arriving in Pakistan. I wonder where did the Navigator go?


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## Dazzler

Last Hope said:


> Oh wow. Finally 10-801 is arriving in Pakistan. I wonder where did the Navigator go?



he is flying the MLU

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## Imran Khan

so no USN F-16 coming this month lolz we know abut mlu and 1 block-52 but i was more interested in those 14


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## Last Hope

*So 84-713 is from the Griffins.*_
Some photos during it's MLU._

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## Abu Zolfiqar

are you sure?

arent those old pictures from a few years ago? They look familiar. I could be wrong though!


and why are these un-flagged aircrafts?


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## Donatello

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> are you sure?
> 
> arent those old pictures from a few years ago? They look familiar. I could be wrong though!
> 
> 
> and why are these un-flagged aircrafts?




I think that's the procedure. All military aircraft from foreign nations undergoing up-gradation work in US are temporarily registered with the US Airforce units.....hence you can see the AF 91 811 written on the tail of the F-16 and the Pakistani flag blurred out.
Basically, Lockheed Martin, Boeing are working for USAF.....so the planes must be in USAF custody.

I don't know the exact legal reason for this....but maybe more informed members can shed some more light.

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## CallsignAlzaeem

SoloTurk F-16 taking off with PAF F-16 taxiing on the runway (Wing Commander Ali Naeem Zahoor) at Izmir air show,2011.

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## Imran Khan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> are you sure?
> 
> arent those old pictures from a few years ago? They look familiar. I could be wrong though!
> 
> 
> and why are these un-flagged aircrafts?




really not expected from you sir  ap ab professor banty ja rahy hain jo sab janty hain per bhool jaty hai 

they have to fly without flag and they are not yet inducted in PAF too . last hope post old images when these birds go there link of sir mabil and new pics from a photographer who take there and post it .they are on the way and they are ours so why dough ?


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Good news after a Disastrous news of Indian Selection of Rafale, that we were expecting to be delayed a lil more or cancel. 

Translated comments from the photographer.


> Good delivery *A flight of three units F16 to any one country*. If anyone has information please share. First of all I apologize for the quality. *F16 There was another one but I could not picture it at all.* Cumptos


Fórum|Aviação Portugal - Ver um Único Post - Movimentos das Lajes - Açores (LPLA/TER)

That means the twin seater F-16 BM 82603 is there as well but not photographed.

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## soul hacker

This is something interesting if we get it for over F 16 and easy to install !!!!!!!

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## nomi007

nabil_05 said:


> First MLU with Last of Blk 52s found on lages......will land here soon.
> 
> 
> Fórum|Aviação Portugal - Ver um Único Post - Movimentos das Lajes - Açores (LPLA/TER)







link also shows this dc-10
is he also cuming
it was last f-16 block52 which was hit by bird and return back to usa for overhauling


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## sancho

soul hacker said:


> This is something interesting if we get it for over F 16 and easy to install !!!!!!!



It's an export AESA radar for F16 operators that wants to upgrade Block 50/52 like S. Korea, Singapore... and it will be available for PAFs Block 52s during later upgrades as well. However, it's specially made for exports/upgrades only and is not as capable as the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80 in UAEs Block 60s.


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## DANGER-ZONE

nomi007 said:


> link also shows this dc-10
> is he also cuming
> it was last f-16 block52 which was hit by bird and return back to usa for overhauling



Its just a delivery guy ! 
Where did u read that Last Block-52 hit by a bird ? Please do give me the link.


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## Last Hope

I have a confusion. I read in this thread that MLU kits will include a new engine, whereas while talking to Kaiser Tufail, he said they will be supported by the same ones. Who is right?


----------



## Last Hope

nomi007 said:


> link also shows this dc-10
> is he also cuming*
> it was last f-16 block52 which was hit by bird and return back to usa for overhauling*


Not true! The 10-801 was kept by USAF for testing purpose, on any possible up-gradations/modification that the PAF or, precisely, PAC could do.


danger-zone said:


> Its just a delivery guy !
> Where did u read that Last Block-52 hit by a bird ? Please do give me the link.


DC-10 was just snapped by the photographer! This isn't any Air base in Pakistan, and that doesn't mean only our Vipers would use the Air base!


----------



## [--Leo--]

Why is so hard for pakistan build AESA Radar and Better Engine .which is main problem that they are facing i wonder


----------



## Donatello

[--Leo--];2554172 said:


> Why is so hard for pakistan build AESA Radar and Better Engine .which is main problem that they are facing i wonder




AESA is something that is very difficult to design and build as you need a good amount of work in solid state electronics.

How many universities in Pakistan are working on that? None.


Same with Engine design. For High-performance engines you need advances in materials science, sophisticated equipment to deal with metallurgy. Neither Pakistan nor India or any other country in South Asia has the capability at the moment.


----------



## Najam Khan

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> and why are these un-flagged aircrafts?



Until they land at Mushaf/Shahbaz they are property of U.S, hence their rules apply. Any minor/major problem that occurs during the delivery is their responsibility. 



Last Hope said:


> DC-10 was just snapped by the photographer! This isn't any Air base in Pakistan, and that doesn't mean only our Vipers would use the Air base!


 
Actually that DC-10 was a part of this formation. All the 52s and EDA a/c delivered to PAF were refueled by the a tanker during the journey....they also use it to contact with air traffic stations of different countries during the ferry mission. Its like a middle man

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## Peaceful Civilian

I am sure US has upgraded latest avionics with good Muscle in it. Specially MLU jets. USA definitively wants to win its F16 against Indian raffles and Russian Su30MKi and other competitors. US is very keen to see his jets against competitors.


----------



## Last Hope

NAjAM Khan said:


> *Until they land at Mushaf/Shahbaz they are property of U.S, hence their rules apply. Any minor/major problem the occurs during the delivery is their responsibility. *
> 
> Actually that DC-10 was a part of this formation. All the 52s and EDA a/c delivered to PAF were refueled by the a tanker during the journey....they also use it to contact with air traffic stations of different countries during the ferry mission. Its like a middle man



Okay, so they are USAF property till they land in Pakistan. Even flying over any other country's airspace? What about the PAF pilots. Would they be marked as flying a PAF F-16 or a USAF F-16? Anyhow answer this please.


> I have a confusion. I read in this thread that MLU kits will include a new engine, whereas while talking to Kaiser Tufail, he said they will be supported by the same ones. Who is right?


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Last Hope said:


> *DC-10 was just snapped by the photographer!* *This isn't any Air base in Pakistan*, and that doesn't mean only our Vipers would use the Air base!



Tanker is always seen with F-16 delivery. Tanker is necessary for crossing Pacific or ur bird might drink some sour water. So Tanker is just a Delivery Guy, as i said before. 
By the way, when i said it is in Pakistan


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Peaceful Civlian said:


> I am sure US has upgraded latest avionics with good Muscle in it. *Specially MLU jets. USA definitively wants to win its F16 against Indian raffles and Russian Su30MKi and other competitors*. US is very keen to see his jets against competitors.



Pleaseeee ..... keep such discussions out .


----------



## Najam Khan

Last Hope said:


> Okay, so they are USAF property till they land in Pakistan. Even flying over any other country's airspace? What about the PAF pilots. Would they be marked as flying a PAF F-16 or a USAF F-16? Anyhow answer this please.


Yes, U.S property. 
It will be marked as an asset of U.S.
Mostly its delivered by U.S pilots, with good record on the type...sometimes PAF pilots also join them in back seat. 

As far as Kasier Tufail's reply is concerned, the spare kits/parts are also supplied by U.S. There will be no new engine it will be the same -220E. There will be some spare modules of -220E included in the deal.


----------



## Last Hope

NAjAM Khan said:


> Yes, U.S property.
> It will be marked as an asset of U.S.
> Mostly its delivered by U.S pilots, with good record on the type...sometimes PAF pilots also join them in back seat.
> 
> As far as Kasier Tufail's reply is concerned, the spare kits/parts are also supplied by U.S. *There will be no new engine it will be the same -220E. There will be some spare modules of -220E included in the deal.*



Same goes with TAI right?


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## Najam Khan

Last Hope said:


> Same goes with TAI right?


Yes. TAI itself can't add/delete anything, everything in this deal is already included and approved by all stake holders.

It was PAF's choice to bring TAI in this project, the reason was the embargo episode of the early90s. PAF initially opted for in house MLU of these a/c at MRF, when U.S didn't agreed (because of Chinese involvement at PAC), PAF opted for TAI....which was a good move. Now, 41 of the 45 a/c are due at TAI' s end...no matter what U.S wants, TAI will deliver as per schedule.

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## Windjammer

*Found this piece of news on the PAF F-16 MLU.*

The PAF MLU avionics upgrade kits are being designed to provide the PAF Block 15A/B aircraft with many of the same capabilities as the new Block 52 F-16s that the PAF is procuring. The MLU kit replaces most of the 1980s avionics in the Block 15s with newer, advanced avionics systems from the Block 52 F-16s. The MLU upgrade kits will include: APG-68(V)9 radar; Embedded GPS/INS (EGI); Link-16 data link; APX-113 Advanced Identify Friend or Foe (AIFF); Color Cockpit with Color Moving Map; ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) Pod; Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) Cockpit and External Lighting; Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod; Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS); Reconnaissance Pod capability; improved avionics systems; JDAM capability; EGBU capability; AIM-120 AMRAAM capability; and AGM-84 Harpoon capability. While many of the avionics systems and capabilities are common with the new Block 52s and the MLU, some significant differences remain between the MLU F-16 Block 15s and the new PAF Block 52s: there are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time; there are no engine improvements; and, there are no improvements to payload capacity. Overall, the MLU program will extend the service life of PAFs original F-16 aircraft and very significantly increase the capability of the PAF to conduct Close Air Support and night precision attack missions.Thus armed with state of the art weapons and avionics suite, the F-16 MLU-III could fight any aircraft of the Indian Airforce maintaining the same level of threat which the Indians faced during the 80s and 90s.







*All PAF F-16 pilots would be equipped with JHMCS*

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## [--Leo--]

I have one question MLU upgrade kit have new engines or they are going to upgrade old one's?
If they have new engines then OLD engines will be returned to pakistan or not?


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## soul hacker

[--Leo--];2554856 said:


> I have one question MLU upgrade kit have new engines or they are going to upgrade old one's?
> If they have new engines then OLD engines will be returned to pakistan or not?



OH mere bhole bhai MLU ke sath new engine NAHI ay ga.


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## SQ8

[--Leo--];2554856 said:


> I have one question MLU upgrade kit have new engines or they are going to upgrade old one's?
> If they have new engines then OLD engines will be returned to pakistan or not?



Its not a new engine.. think of it as turbo boosted.. with new plugs and stuff as for a car.
The PAF F-16's went through an upgrade that brings them to the PW-100-220E level.

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## GHOST RIDER

*A PAF F-16B going to take-off from PAF Base Sargodha, Kirana Hills can be seen in the background.*

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## Imran Khan

since last 30 years they fly daily sorties without loaded weapons on f-16 why ?


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## Major Sam

Imran Khan said:


> since last 30 years they fly daily sorties without loaded weapons on f-16 why ?



for checking either they are working fine


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## Imran Khan

usama waqas said:


> for checking either they are working fine



they can check loaded too damn they have GBUs mavrick and many other toys but they never load it  they just keep 2 side winders and run


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## IceCold

Imran Khan said:


> since last 30 years they fly daily sorties without loaded weapons on f-16 why ?



I have always wondered the same. While we have always seen jets all around the world fully loaded, have never ever seen a PAF jet with full payload.................i wonder why?


----------



## Imran Khan

IceCold said:


> I have always wondered the same. While we have always seen jets all around the world fully loaded, have never ever seen a PAF jet with full payload.................i wonder why?



i think they keep it in storage for safety  they are peaceful force


----------



## unicorn

Imran Khan said:


> since last 30 years they fly daily sorties without loaded weapons on f-16 why ?





Imran Khan said:


> they can check loaded too damn they have GBUs mavrick and many other toys but they never load it  they just keep 2 side winders and run



PAF have conducted hundred of sorties over the Tribal region dropping thousand of bombs.Yet we have never seen a single picture or video in these ten years. Also the JF-17 have participated quite a lot in War on terror. 

If we don't see some thing that doesn't mean it is not there. So what you are saying cannot be termed as right. PAF after the OBL incident have become even more secretive. One example is the news of induction of Chinese AWACS in our infantry. No news about it in the media at all.

These sort of things are understandable.What I don't understand is that Pakistan Forces have never echo their efforts in War on terror. Why hiding the genuine efforts we have done against the militants.We have never fight the wrong claims thrown at us.We have never ever answer the false accusation. Pakistan forces need to look on this aspect (i.e PR) even it is as we know too late.


----------



## araz

Nishan_101 said:


> Although you are quite right about the fact that those embargo 28 F-16s were really pushed to their structural limits and even after the over haul their life won't be like the new ones. As we have heard that U.S have gave back us the money of those 28 F-16s in terms of Palm Oil, so it would be a great idea to go for the 50-70 J-10/J-10S instead of older 28 F-16s and even the most criticized 18 F-16 Block-52s and more over they can order more like another 50-70 J-10B/J-10BS. Although I agree on the upgrade of the current fleet we should be of 31 F-16A/B Block-15, they can upgrade 10 in U.S and the rest 21 F-16s in Turkey. Think over!



Just a slight correction. The 14 F16s that PAF has already received were not used or used sparingly and therefore a good thing to get. As to the other 14 they are in the aggressor unit of US navy and these have probably been excessively used and abused.PAF therefore is not willing to receive them as well as US navy not willing to discharge them. So we have status quop on these 14 for which US is trying to find alternatives.
Araz


----------



## Armstrong

Newbie question : I believe that our JF-17s were made keeping in mind low costs and adaptability, which is to say that a plethora of newer better avionics, electronics, equipment etc. can be integrated into the JF-17(or some of its later models). My question is : Is it possible for it to be upgraded with enough cutting edge equipment to be a comparable deterrent to some of the latest generations of F-16s...?

Cheers, 
Armstrong


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## soul hacker

Finally PAF produced one of finest F-16 Block 52 Scale mode


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## untitled

unicorn said:


> One example is the news of induction of Chinese AWACS in our *infantry*. No news about it in the media at all.



You meant inventory or infantry ?


----------



## Major Sam

Imran Khan said:


> they can check loaded too damn they have GBUs mavrick and many other toys but they never load it  they just keep 2 side winders and run


mey be when they feel bored, then they think to go for a ride  cheers man, lets do long drive


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## soul hacker




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## SQ8

soul hacker said:


> Finally PAF produced one of finest F-16 Block 52 Scale mode



Actually that is the bad version..
I had the one that came with the deal signing... smooth, unbelievably detailed.. That is a copy of what I had.
Unfortunately mine was lost to a rather spoilt young Chap.


----------



## Sinnerman108

Imran Khan said:


> they can check loaded too damn they have GBUs mavrick and many other toys but they never load it  they just keep 2 side winders and run


 


IceCold said:


> I have always wondered the same. While we have always seen jets all around the world fully loaded, have never ever seen a PAF jet with full payload.................i wonder why?


 


Imran Khan said:


> i think they keep it in storage for safety  they are peaceful force



When a gun's on display, is it loaded ?

One of the most major causes of air accident is metal fatigue,
keeping the air frame as lightly loaded as possible is always a good idea.


----------



## SBD-3

Last Hope said:


> I have a confusion. I read in this thread that MLU kits will include a new engine, whereas while talking to Kaiser Tufail, he said they will be supported by the same ones. Who is right?


I think Engine upgrade is a part of STAR program which basically includes modifications of structure to accommodate MLU package and capabilities. For example, I think F-16A/B models dont have the capacity to carry AMRAAMS due to wing's lack of strength and that even after the MLU, an aircraft cant perform all the roles of intended block (40\50) due to its structural limitations. You can google more on this and please dont hesitate to correct me, if you think otherwise.

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## BATMAN

Pakistan F-16larý hazýr, ilk teslimat 8 Þubatta yapýlacak - Hürriyet EKONOMÝ

The news in above link is in Turkish, (using google translation); it says Turkey is going to deliver 3 MLUed F-16 on 8th February.

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## nomi007

Helmet mounted display - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
JHMCS is joint venture between Israel and USA its mean we are using Israeli helmet
good for us
we need more f-16s mlu to counter rafael thread 
find the old f-16s in different countries and get them 
approximately 126-150


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## Najam Khan

BATMAN said:


> Pakistan F-16&#8217;larý hazýr, ilk teslimat 8 Þubat&#8217;ta yapýlacak - Hürriyet EKONOMÝ
> 
> The news in above link is in Turkish, (using google translation); it says Turkey is going to deliver 3 MLUed F-16 on 8th February.



Interesting how media gets insights of such military matters.


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## Imran Khan



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## DANGER-ZONE

Imran Khan said:


>



I dont think he is any Pakistani Military man. 
So GORAS are still present at Jacobabad AB.


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## Imran Khan

danger-zone said:


> I dont think he is any Pakistani Military man.
> So GORAS are still present at Jacobabad AB.



whats wrong with you guys ? they are here for help us for learn us .please try to understand its not just a car buy and forget its damn modern jet. what you will feel if we sold jf-17 and they use same words for our technicians which stay there to teach them abut jf-17?

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## TOPGUN

Imran Khan said:


> whats wrong with you guys ? they are here for help us for learn us .please try to understand its not just a car buy and forget its damn modern jet. what you will feel if we sold jf-17 and they use same words for our technicians which stay there to teach them abut jf-17?



Totally agreed but yaar for how damn long ... its a viper not a spaceship ..


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## Imran Khan

TOPGUN said:


> Totally agreed but yaar for how damn long ... its a viper not a spaceship ..



still we never recived total numbers and we need to send them back?


----------



## TOPGUN

Imran Khan said:


> still we never recived total numbers and we need to send them back?



Point made.. about the qty of vipers that we haven't recived but not the point i made if our tech's understand what to do now then there is no need for the us personal to be there unless they are still learning .. and its part of what i meant how damn long will it take to get them to learn and for PAF to send the US personal back simply.


----------



## Imran Khan

TOPGUN said:


> Point made.. about the qty of vipers that we haven't recived but not the point i made if our tech's understand what to do now then there is no need for the us personal to be there unless they are still learning .. and its part of what i meant how damn long will it take to get them to learn and for PAF to send the US personal back simply.



i think we also need them for MLU jets . they are also coming with new equipment and systems which never we work with .

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## farhan_9909

hasnain0099 said:


> I think Engine upgrade is a part of STAR program which basically includes modifications of structure to accommodate MLU package and capabilities. For example, I think F-16A/B models dont have the capacity to carry AMRAAMS due to wing's lack of strength and that even after the MLU, an aircraft cant perform all the roles of intended block (40\50) due to its structural limitations. You can google more on this and please dont hesitate to correct me, if you think otherwise.



i have seen early blocks of f-16 carrying harpoon and they are more heavier than aim 120


----------



## Last Hope

Imran Khan said:


>


He seems to be a military personnel not an Air Force officer/trainer. 


danger-zone said:


> I dont think he is any Pakistani Military man.
> So GORAS are still present at Jacobabad AB.


Jacobabad still has got US military who are over-looking the NATO supplies and managing the affairs.


----------



## Donatello

The 'white' guy on the right, looks relatively young....maybe low 20s......he might be there as a mechanic/technician.....to train his Pakistani counterparts.....when Lockheed Martin sells the aircraft, either they can send their own men...which is not so cheap....or they can ask US Airforce to depute those who already have experience. The latter being the case here.


So relax.


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## SQ8

Najam Khan said:


> Interesting how media gets insights of such military matters.



Loose mouths..

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## BATMAN

Oscar said:


> Loose mouths..



You have lot of disclosures to your credit, too.


----------



## Donatello

BATMAN said:


> You have lot of disclosures to your credit, too.



....or the Think Tanks.........otherwise we would be nothing but a downgraded Facebook.


----------



## BATMAN

Donatello said:


> ....or the Think Tanks.........otherwise we would be nothing but a downgraded Facebook.



Brit...Your explanation was totally un-necessary, i used the word 'TOO'


----------



## untitled

Oscar said:


> Loose mouths..


 


BATMAN said:


> You have lot of disclosures to your credit, too.


 


Donatello said:


> ....or the Think Tanks.........otherwise we would be nothing but a downgraded Facebook.


 


BATMAN said:


> Brit...Your explanation was totally un-necessary, i used the word 'TOO'



Nice to see different points of view on Industry insiders.
No wonder some people call Aviation Week _"Aviation Leak"_


----------



## rohailmalhi

One more thing i didnt know that Pakistan have F16's with confrontal tanks...............Thats a news if we have those.


----------



## BATMAN

rohailmalhi said:


> One more thing i didnt know that Pakistan have F16's with additional fuel tanks above the wings..............



Good morning...

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## rohailmalhi

BATMAN said:


> Good morning...


God morgon till dig.


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## TOPGUN

Hahah guys cut it out the bs back on the subject plzz.


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## Donatello

BATMAN said:


> Brit...Your explanation was totally un-necessary, i used the word 'TOO'



'Brit' ? Seriously?


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## BATMAN



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## killerx

stop buying F16s invest in J10B J20 will make PAF strong and best plus no F..k kill switch shoot even USA drones And jets


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## SQ8

BATMAN said:


> You have lot of disclosures to your credit, too.



disclosures that are not unsaid before, or have not been implied implicitly. 
And half of those I dont state here, that is a privilege reserved between TT's.
The F-16 delivery date leak is not a security concern as such, what is a concern is the capability it brings.. and I recall someone jumping with joy after finding out certain information that should have remained unsaid on another forum.


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## fjavaid

Oscar said:


> disclosures that are not unsaid before, or have not been implied implicitly.
> And half of those I dont state here, that is a privilege reserved between TT's.
> The F-16 delivery date leak is not a security concern as such, what is a concern is the capability it brings.. and I recall someone jumping with joy after finding out certain information that should have remained unsaid on another forum.


 
if u read it on some other forum ..please do share it over here tooo ......


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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> i think we also need them for MLU jets . they are also coming with new equipment and systems which never we work with .


people think its not viper its foxy car
damn ****

---------- Post added at 02:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:48 PM ----------






when more f-16as are coming


----------



## soul hacker

nomi007 said:


> people think its not viper its foxy car
> damn ****
> 
> ---------- Post added at 02:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:48 PM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> when more f-16as are coming



its foxy sexy viper


----------



## Sargodhian_Eagle

Hey guys check this news. Finally we got the Vipers.PAF gets three F-16 jets from US | The News Tribe

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## Imran Khan

*US Delivers Three F-16s to Pakistan*
PTI | Islamabad | Feb 06, 2012
PRINT 
SHARE
COMMENTS
The US today delivered three F-16 aircraft to Pakistan, including a new jet and two that were returned after being refurbished.

The new F-16 D Block 52 jet and two F-16 Block 15 jets that had undergone a mid-life upgrade arrived at the Shahbaz airbase from the US, a Pakistan Air Force spokesman said.

The arrival of the F-16 D Block 52 jet marked the completion of delivery of 18 new aircraft ordered by Pakistan.

The other two aircraft were earlier sent to the US for a mid-life upgrade and were delivered to the PAF on time, the spokesman said.

To commemorate the event, a ceremony was held at Shahbaz airbase.

The F-16 D Block 52 aircraft is a combat jet equipped with an advanced avionics suite and weapons with "night precision attack" capability, the spokesman said.


news.outlookindia.com | US Delivers Three F-16s to Pakistan

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## Imran Khan

*PAF gets three F-16 jets from US
*
By Ali Hussain - Feb 6th, 2012 (No Comment)
3

Islamabad: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on Monday received three more F-16 fighter gets from United Sates.

A PAF spokesman said that Pakistan Air Force received three F-16 fighter jets. He added among the planes, two are upgraded F-16 while the other is latest Block-52.

The three aircraft are part of the final batch of 18 F-16 block 52 aircraft from Lockheed Martin as part of a foreign military sale (FMS) of 36 F-16C/D block 50/52 aircraft announced in June 2005.

Under the US-Pakistan F-16 programme, Lockheed was awarded a contract for 12 F-16C and six F-16D block 52 aircraft in December 2006. The delivery comes at a time when military aid for Pakistan has been almost completely halted by the US in the wake of a series of crises affecting the bilateral relationship between the two nations.

Pakistan has already received block 52 versions of the F-16 aircraft, which includes day-night, all-weather and precision-attack capabilities. The compact multirole, single-engine Lockheed Martin-built F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft has a high level of manoeuvrability, a top speed of 2,124km/h, and can detect planes flying at very low altitudes. The F-16 block 52 aircraft provides additional fuel and payload capacity, improved avionics and sensors, and colour cockpit displays with enhanced pilot/vehicle interfaces.

The US is also working with the PAF to update 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the US foreign military financing security assistance programme. The aircraft are currently undergoing mid-life upgrades and deliveries are scheduled to take place throughout 2012 and 2013.

PAF gets three F-16 jets from US | The News Tribe


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## Imran Khan

so end of game block-52 our birds come back and no more pakistani blck-52 in USA .only 14 in USN which may be come or not  and yep 2 more MLU at last stage soon arrive back


----------



## Windjammer

*Three F-16s received from US: Pakistan Air Force*
Updated 22 minutes ago







ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has received three F-16s from the United States. 

According to a spokesperson for the Pakistan Air Force, out of the three jets received, one is new while the other two have been upgraded.

Three F-16

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## xTra

Now we can expect the Route for NATO to be opened soon.

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## Imran Khan

xTra said:


> Now we can expect the Route for NATO to be opened soon.



why ??????? we get them free or it was aid? one of our block-52 they keep there for tests and two of our old f-16 for MLU was there whats they give us for open nato route ? BTW why you guys did off topic job and pick stupid comments on every issue of pakistan ?

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## airbus101

http://www.app.com.pk/photo/preview/06-02-2012/fe24f473c5449885a5c162be13ac986a.jpg
http://www.app.com.pk/photo/preview/06-02-2012/bfa75ba6d3fa467b5758a1b0b2e94e72.jpg
http://www.app.com.pk/photo/preview/06-02-2012/45299fd530f66706e7aad53dfd785edf.jpg


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## SQ8

fjavaid said:


> if u read it on some other forum ..please do share it over here tooo ......



Most TT's do not share anything other than what they hear themselves and have confirmed.
Copy pasting from other forums where "leaks" are concerned is just rumor mongering.


----------



## Jango

Pakistan Air Force gets Three F-16 jets from US
February 6, 2012

By Ali Hussain

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on Monday received three more F-16 fighter gets from United Sates.

A PAF spokesman said that Pakistan Air Force received three F-16 fighter jets. He added among the planes, two are upgraded F-16 while the other is latest Block-52.

The three aircraft are part of the final batch of 18 F-16 block 52 aircraft from Lockheed Martin as part of a foreign military sale (FMS) of 36 F-16C/D block 50/52 aircraft announced in June 2005.

Under the US-Pakistan F-16 programme, Lockheed was awarded a contract for 12 F-16C and six F-16D block 52 aircraft in December 2006. The delivery comes at a time when military aid for Pakistan has been almost completely halted by the US in the wake of a series of crises affecting the bilateral relationship between the two nations.

Pakistan has already received block 52 versions of the F-16 aircraft, which includes day-night, all-weather and precision-attack capabilities. The compact multirole, single-engine Lockheed Martin-built F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft has a high level of manoeuvrability, a top speed of 2,124km/h, and can detect planes flying at very low altitudes.

The F-16 block 52 aircraft provides additional fuel and payload capacity, improved avionics and sensors, and colour cockpit displays with enhanced pilot/vehicle interfaces.

The US is also working with the PAF to update 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the US foreign military financing security assistance programme. The aircraft are currently undergoing mid-life upgrades and deliveries are scheduled to take place throughout 2012 and 2013.

Source: Thenewstribe

















Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency )


----------



## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Pakistan Air Force gets Three F-16 jets from US
> February 6, 2012
> 
> By Ali Hussain
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on Monday received three more F-16 fighter gets from United Sates.
> 
> A PAF spokesman said that Pakistan Air Force received three F-16 fighter jets. He added among the planes, two are upgraded F-16 while the other is latest Block-52.
> 
> *The three aircraft are part of the final batch of 18 F-16 block 52 aircraft from Lockheed Martin as part of a foreign military sale (FMS) of 36 F-16C/D block 50/52 aircraft announced in June 2005.
> *
> Under the US-Pakistan F-16 programme, Lockheed was awarded a contract for 12 F-16C and six F-16D block 52 aircraft in December 2006. The delivery comes at a time when military aid for Pakistan has been almost completely halted by the US in the wake of a series of crises affecting the bilateral relationship between the two nations.
> 
> Pakistan has already received block 52 versions of the F-16 aircraft, which includes day-night, all-weather and precision-attack capabilities. The compact multirole, single-engine Lockheed Martin-built F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft has a high level of manoeuvrability, a top speed of 2,124km/h, and can detect planes flying at very low altitudes.
> 
> The F-16 block 52 aircraft provides additional fuel and payload capacity, improved avionics and sensors, and colour cockpit displays with enhanced pilot/vehicle interfaces.
> 
> The US is also working with the PAF to update 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the US foreign military financing security assistance programme. The aircraft are currently undergoing mid-life upgrades and deliveries are scheduled to take place throughout 2012 and 2013.
> 
> Source: Thenewstribe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency )



What foolishness! We have already received 17 earlier and got one out of these three of that batch!


----------



## silver_dragon

Like India is trying to extract Russian engine secretes relentlessly without success since past 15 years. Remember Kaveri Engine.


----------



## Alphacharlie

silver_dragon said:


> Like India is trying to extract Russian engine secretes relentlessly without success since past 15 years. Remember Kaveri Engine.


Mr Han we dont need to steal Russian Turbine Technology like China just ask them. By the way wake up ...Kaveri core doesnt match with any RD series or AL or Kilmov series.....To design TJ-Core mono Block fans is a specialized skill which needs massive expertise.

I really hate replying to kids who just waste my Time.

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## Cool_Soldier

Good and wise step from USA.No more embargo for Pakistan as it will result in a bad way for them.


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## air marshal



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## air marshal



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## Stealth

*in F16s ko sanmbhaal kar rakhain kaaam ayeengay kal kesi event kiliye hosakhta hey koi Air show ho cuz warna koom DRONE saaay marti rahayge asay ASLAY PE LANAT!*

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## regular

Yes! these F-16'z are here just to defend US and its interests not our country Pakistan or its poor people......

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## Windjammer

Interestingly, the last F-16D model delivered today was the first Block-52 rolled out for the PAF.

Damn, took them along time to install the so called kill switch.

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## Najam Khan

Last Hope said:


> *What foolishness!* We have already received 17 earlier and got one out of these three of that batch!


Thats not the case. It was in U.S for weapons integration to a PAF customized Bk52 aircraft. Most probably AN/ALQ-211 v9 is integrated too, hence no reason for its stay there.

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## Najam Khan

air marshal said:


>



The engineer sahab in video's thumbnail has an unstable cap...must have worn in a hurry before this shot. 
BTW Congrats to Falcons, they have got some MLUs in their inventory.


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## Imran Khan




----------



## Najam Khan

Imran Khan said:


>



Just like Belgian AF's MLUs, these bk52 have ECM/RWR sensors in the drogue chute box & under the intake. I think its CARAPACE ECM under the intake.

A close up of same item on Belgian AF's F-16.
http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item45617.html


----------



## SQ8

Najam Khan said:


> The engineer sahab in video's thumbnail has an unstable cap...must have worn in a hurry before this shot.
> BTW Congrats to Falcons, they have got *some MLUs in their inventory*.



I think they are there temporarily as 5 sq has been given the task of training the other two on the MLU jets which resemble the Block-52's in avionics. Or am I wrong here??


----------



## Najam Khan

Oscar said:


> I think they are there temporarily as 5 sq has been given the task of training the other two on the MLU jets which resemble the Block-52's in avionics. Or am I wrong here??


Yes its a temporary assignment till we get a reasonable strength is available to run a conversion course. 14/16 a/c would be minimum to start a conversion course. I think PAF would go for two operational non MLU sqns both with equal amount of EDA F-16s and 5 Sqn with mix of bk52 and MLU. Once they get 14/16 a/c MLU'ed they can be assigned to 9 or 11 sqn, whose F-16s will be allotted to other remaining non-MLU unit.


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## air marshal

*Pakistan Air Force receives first MLU F-16s*
February 6, 2012

by Asif Shamim

The Pakistani airforce received its first two MLU upgraded F-16s today at PAF Shahbaz airbase after the aircraft arrived back from the USA.

Accompanying the two upgraded F-16s was the final block 52 airframe a D-Model (#10801) which had remained in the US for testing & trials. 

This concludes the delivery of all 18 of the newer Block 52 aircraft ordered as part of the 'Peace Drive' program.

According to PAF public affairs officials the two F-16 block 15 aircraft, were earlier sent to USA for Mid Life Upgrade (MLU) and have been delivered back to the PAF on time. On there return a small ceremony was held at the base attended by PAF dignitaries.

The United States has released $ 116 million to finance mid-life upgrades for Pakistan's existing fleet of block 15 A/B aircraft.

Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) will do the upgrade MLU which primarily involves replacement of avionics and structural modifications bringing them close to block 40 standards.

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## Imran Khan



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## SBD-3

Windjammer said:


> Interestingly, the last F-16D model delivered today was the first Block-52 rolled out for the PAF.
> 
> Damn, took them along time to install the so called kill switch.


Probably it would have been there in US for testing and integration program.


----------



## Zarvan

A PAF spokesman said that Pakistan Air Force received three F-16 fighter jets. He added among the planes, two are upgraded F-16 while the other is latest Block-52.

The three aircraft are part of the final batch of 18 F-16 block 52 aircraft from Lockheed Martin as part of a foreign military sale (FMS) of 36 F-16C/D block 50/52 aircraft announced in June 2005.

Under the US-Pakistan F-16 programme, Lockheed was awarded a contract for 12 F-16C and six F-16D block 52 aircraft in December 2006. The delivery comes at a time when military aid for Pakistan has been almost completely halted by the US in the wake of a series of crises affecting the bilateral relationship between the two nations.

Pakistan has already received block 52 versions of the F-16 aircraft, which includes day-night, all-weather and precision-attack capabilities. The compact multirole, single-engine Lockheed Martin-built F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft has a high level of manoeuvrability, a top speed of 2,124km/h, and can detect planes flying at very low altitudes.

The F-16 block 52 aircraft provides additional fuel and payload capacity, improved avionics and sensors, and colour cockpit displays with enhanced pilot/vehicle interfaces.

The US is also working with the PAF to update 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the US foreign military financing security assistance programme. The aircraft are currently undergoing mid-life upgrades and deliveries are scheduled to take place throughout 2012 and 2013.

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## K-Xeroid

Stealth said:


> *in F16s ko sanmbhaal kar rakhain kaaam ayeengay kal kesi event kiliye hosakhta hey koi Air show ho cuz warna koom DRONE saaay marti rahayge asay ASLAY PE LANAT!*


*Well ! Ek Qaum tu mujhe yahan koi nahi dekhti ,Han Qaumyatain marti rahi ge.. Bhai ju Syed bhi mirza bhi hain afghan bhi hain aab tu aur bhi bohot kuch hain.. Unse kaho ke apne aap ku khud bachaye .. ya apne Qaum parast leaders ku pukare.. Pehley hi hum apni bohot army En Qaumyatun k chakar mey zaya kr chuke hain.. aab unhe en sub k lia qurbani dene ki zaroorat nahi..*


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## MINK

silver_dragon said:


> Like *India is trying to extract Russian engine secretes relentlessly without success * since past 15 years. Remember Kaveri Engine.



This proves who is better thief


----------



## Arsalan

so this concludes the 18 F-16 BLK-52 deal and all 18 are in PAF.
plus we have got back two out of four F-16 BLK-15 that were send to US for MLU.
the rest of BLK-15 will be upgraded by Turkey.


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## DANGER-ZONE

air marshal said:


> *Pakistan Air Force receives first MLU F-16s*
> February 6, 2012
> 
> by Asif Shamim
> 
> The Pakistani airforce received its first two MLU upgraded F-16s today at PAF Shahbaz airbase after the aircraft arrived back from the USA.
> 
> Accompanying the two upgraded F-16s was the final block 52 airframe a D-Model (#10801) which had remained in the US for testing & trials.
> 
> This concludes the delivery of all 18 of the newer Block 52 aircraft ordered as part of the 'Peace Drive' program.
> 
> According to PAF public affairs officials the two F-16 block 15 aircraft, were earlier sent to USA for Mid Life Upgrade (MLU) and have been delivered back to the PAF on time. On there return a small ceremony was held at the base attended by PAF dignitaries.
> 
> *The United States has released $ 116 million to finance mid-life upgrades for Pakistan's existing fleet of block 15 A/B aircraft.*
> 
> Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) will do the upgrade MLU which primarily involves replacement of avionics and structural modifications bringing them close to block 40 standards.



Now WTH this bold part is :


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## Last Hope

Najam Khan said:


> Thats not the case. It was in U.S for weapons integration to a PAF customized Bk52 aircraft. Most probably AN/ALQ-211 v9 is integrated too, hence no reason for its stay there.



Najam, I know that. But the foolishness part was for the writer, who mentioned all three F-16s to be part of Block 52 program.. Please read that bold part againn.


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## BATMAN

danger-zone said:


> Now WTH this bold part is :



In Pakistan people are being fooled by media.

This also tells, US aid is nothing more than propaganda.


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## ziaulislam

US had previously aggreed to provide 75 million to finance the MLU, i dont know what happened after that


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## BATMAN

There are outstanding bills of $5 billion, which US has to pay.

Other than Saudi Arabia and Turkey, no state has ever aided Pakistan, with amounts going as high as million.

Not even during man made floods.


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## Donatello

BATMAN said:


> There are outstanding bills of $5 billion, which US has to pay.
> 
> Other than Saudi Arabia and Turkey, no state has ever aided Pakistan, with amounts going as high as million.
> 
> Not even during man made floods.




Japan has....


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## abdulbarijan

While the thread might be going off topic...I have a question that might get us all intrigued.....
*
Will we station all the MLU's and Blk-52 at shahbaz airbase??*


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## SQ8

abdulbarijan said:


> While the thread might be going off topic...I have a question that might get us all intrigued.....
> *
> Will we station all the MLU's and Blk-52 at shahbaz airbase??*



All block 52's have been allotted to 5sq which is based at jacobabad.
The MLU's have avionics similar to the Block-52's so MLU's will stay in Jacobabad while 5 sq acts as a transition and conversion unit for exiting F-16 pilots to the MLU jets. This will continue until there are enough MLU's in Jacobabad for conversion courses to be carried out and the surplus will head to existing F-16 sq to replace those aircraft going for MLU.
It is however also possible that Jacobabad may become the premier F-16 training and transition base and 5-sq take up the mantle of F-16 OCU from 11 sq. This will require one or two MLU's left at jacobabad in lieu of the block-52s even after all MLU's are delivered back to the PAF.

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## TOPGUN

Good news however ... what about the news of 18 more blk 52's ? or that just a rumor and any news if US will free up older vipers for us?


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## [--Leo--]

Pakistan ordered 18 F-16 block 52 or 36 F-16 block 52?


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## Aamir Hussain

Let us rewind to the 1st post on this thread;-)


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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> All block 52's have been allotted to 5sq which is based at jacobabad.
> The MLU's have avionics similar to the Block-52's so MLU's will stay in Jacobabad while 5 sq acts as a transition and conversion unit for exiting F-16 pilots to the MLU jets. This will continue until there are enough MLU's in Jacobabad for conversion courses to be carried out and the surplus will head to existing F-16 sq to replace those aircraft going for MLU.
> It is however also possible that Jacobabad may become the premier F-16 training and transition base and 5-sq take up the mantle of F-16 OCU from 11 sq. This will require one or two MLU's left at jacobabad in lieu of the block-52s even after all MLU's are delivered back to the PAF.



But the CCS is based in Sargodha...the home of the F-16s.....so will that be shifted as well?


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## TOPGUN

Man why are you people trying to mess up this thread by trolling this thread is about PAF f-16's stick to the topic damn...

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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> But the CCS is based in Sargodha...the home of the F-16s.....so will that be shifted as well?



The CCS is the combat commanders school that trains leaders for all fighter types, not just F-16's.
It will retain its F-16 package from the Sargodha squadrons.
I dont think that there will be any time when F-16's are not at Sargodha. It will just be those MLU F-16's that will come in new to be worked up at Jacobabad and then will be returned to Sargodha.


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## TOPGUN

Oscar said:


> The CCS is the combat commanders school that trains leaders for all fighter types, not just F-16's.
> It will retain its F-16 package from the Sargodha squadrons.
> I dont think that there will be any time when F-16's are not at Sargodha. It will just be those MLU F-16's that will come in new to be worked up at Jacobabad and then will be returned to Sargodha.



Agreed but isn't the plan to mlu all older vipers ? so then when inshallah they are all mlu'd the older vipers that is .. then wouldn't all of them be moved to Jacobabad ?


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## Last Hope

TOPGUN said:


> Agreed but isn't the plan to mlu all older vipers ? so then when inshallah they are all mlu'd the older vipers that is .. then wouldn't all of them be moved to Jacobabad ?



Yes TOPGUN, all will be MLU-ed. 
They would come to Jacobabad, and the pilots would be trained for some time, and go back to their respected Squadron, like the two MLU-ed F-16s received are from 9th Squadron.

As for the MLU of others, I've got no idea when it finishes. These F-16s were sent in 2009 for MLU.

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## Windjammer

*
The latest F-16s to join PAF, make a break over Shahbaz Airbase before coming in to land.
*

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## nomi007

are more f-16s are coming

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## BATMAN

Turkey delivers 3 modernized F-16 aircraft to Pakistan

ANKARA, Feb. 8 (Xinhua) -- Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. ( TUSAS) on Wednesday delivered three modernized F-16 aircraft to Pakistani Air Forces, the semi-official Anatolia news agency reported.

Turkish Defense Industry Undersecretary Murad Bayar was quoted as saying at a delivering ceremony that Turkey and Pakistan have successfully cooperated in a wide range of technologies, including radio, electronics and military information systems.

Pakistani Deputy Commander of Air Forces Gen. Asim Suleiman said Pakistan's air defense will become even stronger with the aircraft modernized in structural and avionic aspects.

TUSAS signed the contract with Pakistan Ministry of Defense in June 2009 after winning out in the tender of Pakistan Air Force F- 16 Modernization (Peace Drive II) program.

Under the program, TUSAS's engineers and technicians are responsible for the modernization of a total of 41 F-16 aircraft in the inventory of Pakistan Air Force (PAF).

The Peace Drive II program, which started in October 2010, is expected to finish by September 2014. The required parts, material and technical data are furnished to TUSAS in line with another contract between the U.S. government and PAF.

Within the scope of the Peace Drive II program, TUSAS also provides classroom and on-the-job training to 72 PAF technicians.

TUSAS, which was established for co-production of F-16 aircraft for the Turkish Air Force in 1984, is one of the major aerospace companies in the world in F-16 manufacturing and modernization. It is also currently modernizing 175 F-16s for the Turkish Air Force.

---------- Post added at 12:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 AM ----------

TAR

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## BATMAN

TUSA&#350;'&#305;n modernize etti&#287;i üç F-16 Pakistan'a teslim edildi

According to the (translated version) link above, it says 6 more a/c were delivered.

It also says by mid of 2012 many more air-crafts will be released simultaneously!!!

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## Donatello

Last Hope said:


> Yes TOPGUN, all will be MLU-ed.
> They would come to Jacobabad, and the pilots would be trained for some time, and go back to their respected Squadron, like the two MLU-ed F-16s received are from 9th Squadron.
> 
> As for the MLU of others, I've got no idea when it finishes. These F-16s were sent in 2009 for MLU.



When the final F-16s are MLU-ed....there will be a total of 45+18= 63........that is enough for 3 squadrons.......so why shift all of them to Jacobabad? As Sargodha is nearer to border and can respond quickly to any IAF aggression?


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## regular

Excellent! news from our Turkish brotherz and excellent job done by them for our country's defences.....


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## BATMAN

Donatello said:


> When the final F-16s are MLU-ed....there will be a total of 45+18= 63........that is enough for 3 squadrons.......so why shift all of them to Jacobabad? As Sargodha is nearer to border and can respond quickly to any IAF aggression?



They are useless against India, anyway.

This is why Musharraf cancelled the order of next 18.


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## TOPGUN

BATMAN said:


> They are useless against India, anyway.
> 
> This is why Musharraf cancelled the order of next 18.



And why are they useless against india bro? plzz don't tell me about the kill switch theory lolz.


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## BATMAN

TOPGUN said:


> And why are they useless against india bro? plzz don't tell me about the kill switch theory lolz.



Problem is you take 'Kill Switch' in its literary meaning but we take it is more as 'compromised'

For example: If it cannot fire on US than it cannot fire on any one, US wish.


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## untitled

BATMAN said:


> For example: If it cannot fire on US than it cannot fire on any one, US wish.



All our fighters long ago started to use GPS for navigation. We our dependent on US satellites for navigation too. I think that is a much bigger problem than the _killswitch_ theory


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## BATMAN

pdf_shurtah said:


> All our fighters long ago started to use GPS for navigation. We our dependent on US satellites for navigation too. I think that is a much bigger problem than the _killswitch_ theory



That is a problem if US satellite block its signals, but than every one in the field would be handicapped.


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## untitled

BATMAN said:


> That is a problem if US satellite block its signals, but than every one in the field would be handicapped.



Signals can be blocked for a particular geographical location


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## untitled

I am more concerned about GPS spoofing



> GPS Spoofing: Someone is Making your GPS Tell Lies
> 
> Spoofing is the result of malefactors providing fake GPS satellite signals to GPS receivers and this is a very serious concern on our list of the 10 GPS vulnerabilities. Individuals engaging in GPS spoofing deliberately send misleading information which is hoped to misdirect whomever may be using the targeted GPS receiver, be it man or machine, Therefore, the targeted GPS receiver reports that it's not actually where it's at and/or displays the incorrect time. This kind of attack is said to be relatively easy, the saboteur doesn&#8217;t even have to know all that much about GPS technology. And we&#8217;ve already pointed out that the GPS infrastructure the public uses is not secure; which opens the door for persons with bad intentions. Fortunately, the U.S. Government's Vulnerability Assessment Team (VAT) at Los Alamos National Laboratory does provide GPS spoofing countermeasures which you can learn about here at homelandsecurity.org. These countermeasures have no way of detecting spoofing attacks, but the information there contains some proposals for modifying receivers so it would be more difficult to spoof them. By the same token, the military necessarily has to train for all sorts of scenarios, which include jamming and spoofing tests which could feasibly interfere with the entire GPS enchilada which everyone else relies on for navigational sustenance. So that ends our comprehensive list of 10 GPS vulnerabilities. If you happened to land on this article, be sure and check out the first in this series (covering 1-5), by clicking on the link below.


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## Donatello

BATMAN said:


> *They are useless against India*, anyway.
> 
> This is why Musharraf cancelled the order of next 18.




Pakistan didn't buy them to use them against the rag tag Taliban.

Please provide proof for your post......or i'd say you just posted BS.


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## Edevelop

BATMAN said:


> That is a problem if US satellite block its signals, but than every one in the field would be handicapped.



I am sure PAF is not that stupid. If thats the case then why are we going with more F-16s... If it is only to fight against terrorists, then why do we need to upgrade them, with better radars, avionics etc...

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## TOPGUN

cb4 said:


> I am sure PAF is not that stupid. If thats the case then why are we going with more F-16s... If it is only to fight against terrorists, then why do we need to upgrade them, with better radars, avionics etc...



Thankyou for clearling up that part the rest of the guys just don't seem to understand ... PAF is not stupid at all they know what they are doing all the rest is just BS .


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## Babur Han

> *Turkey delivers 3 modernized F-16 aircraft to Pakistan*
> 
> Source: XINHUA | 2012-2-9 |
> 
> ANKARA, Feb. 8 (Xinhua) -- Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. ( TUSAS) on Wednesday delivered three modernized F-16 aircraft to Pakistani Air Forces, the semi-official Anatolia news agency reported.
> 
> Turkish Defense Industry Undersecretary Murad Bayar was quoted as saying at a delivering ceremony that Turkey and Pakistan have successfully cooperated in a wide range of technologies, including radio, electronics and military information systems.
> 
> Pakistani Deputy Commander of Air Forces Gen. Asim Suleiman said Pakistan's air defense will become even stronger with the aircraft modernized in structural and avionic aspects.
> 
> TUSAS signed the contract with Pakistan Ministry of Defense in June 2009 after winning out in the tender of Pakistan Air Force F- 16 Modernization (Peace Drive II) program.
> 
> Under the program, TUSAS's engineers and technicians are responsible for the modernization of a total of 41 F-16 aircraft in the inventory of Pakistan Air Force (PAF).
> 
> The Peace Drive II program, which started in October 2010, is expected to finish by September 2014. The required parts, material and technical data are furnished to TUSAS in line with another contract between the U.S. government and PAF.
> 
> Within the scope of the Peace Drive II program, TUSAS also provides classroom and on-the-job training to 72 PAF technicians.
> 
> TUSAS, which was established for co-production of F-16 aircraft for the Turkish Air Force in 1984, is one of the major aerospace companies in the world in F-16 manufacturing and modernization. It is also currently modernizing 175 F-16s for the Turkish Air Force.



Turkey delivers 3 modernized F-16 aircraft to Pakistan -- Shanghai Daily | ???? -- English Window to China New

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## Alpery

Pakistan Zindabad

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## razgriz19



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## Pakistanisage

I would love to see more defence joint ventures between Turkey and Pakistan.

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## K-Xeroid

Pakistanisage said:


> I would love to see more defence joint ventures between Turkey and Pakistan.


Me Too! 
 Nice timing Turk Bro!

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## Nishan_101

Really a good news...

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## nomi007

future of paf is bright 
they just speed up the acquisition fc-10 and fc-1 block2


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## nomi007

that's great news

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## nomi007

http://lh5.ggpht.com/-TTot8mif7V0/T.../s1600-h/20111216-IAF-MiG-27-SAF-F-16-012.jpg
Indian mig-27 with Singapore's f-16 block-52 to understand paf capability


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## fatman17

Date Posted: 08-Feb-201

*Pakistan receives final Block 52 F-16*

James Hardy JDW Asia-Pacific Editor - London



The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) received the last of its 18 Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 52 Fighting Falcons from the United States on 6 February. 

A two-seat F-16D arrived at PAF Shahbaz Airbase near Jacobabad along with two F-16 Block 15 aircraft that had been sent to the US as part of a mid-life upgrade programme. The US is upgrading 45 F-16s from Pakistan's existing fleet through the Foreign Military Financing programme. 

Meanwhile, the AFP news agency reported that a PAF pilot was killed when his CAC F-7PG training aircraft crashed on 8 February in Balochistan province. 

The Chinese-built F-7 crashed in Pishin district, 65 km north of the provincial capital Quetta, during a routine training mission, Air Commodore Anis Mirza told AFP. It was the fourth PAF training crash in three months. 

Pakistan operates about 160 F-7 variants, of which the F-7PG (F-7MG) is the newest having entered service in 2002.

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## Peaceful Civilian

What includes in the mid life upgrade of F16?? As many f16 are going for MLU process. How it enhances life of Jet. Is this includes alternation of airframes?? In my knowledge, if you upgrade latest avionics but if there is same old airframe, it does not enhances life of the jet, It will only enhance jet capability.


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## Last Hope

*The aircraft, which belonged to Pakistani Air Forces, were modernized in Turkey, and delivered to Pakistan with a ceremony on Wednesday Andolu Agency reported.

Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. (TUSAS) delivered three modernized F-16 aircraft to Pakistan.
*
The aircraft, which belonged to Pakistani Air Forces, were modernized in Turkey, and delivered to Pakistan with a ceremony on Wednesday.

Turkish Defense Industry Undersecretary Murad Bayar said that Turkey and Pakistan have successfully cooperated in tactics, radio, electronic war and training test center and military information systems so far.

Pakistani Deputy Commander of Air Forces Gen. Asim Suleiman said that Pakistan&#8217;s air defense became more successful with the aircraft which were modernized in structural and avionic aspects.

Pakistani Ambassador to Turkey Muhammad Shaukat Haroon said that the project was a sign of friendship and unity of powers between Turkey and Pakistan.

TUSAS, by competing with other F-16 manufacturing companies, has been selected as the contractor, in the tender of Pakistan Air Force F-16 Modernization (Peace Drive II) Program and signed a contract with Pakistan Ministry of Defense in June 2009.

Under the program, TUSAS&#8217;s engineers and technicians perform avionics and structural modernization of a total of 41 F-16 aircraft that are in the inventory of Pakistan Air Force (PAF). The test flights of each modernized aircraft are also performed by TUSAS&#8217;s F-16 Test Pilots.

The Peace Drive II program, which started in October 2010, is planned to be completed by September 2014. The required parts, material and technical data are furnished to TUSAS in accordance with another contract between U.S. government and PAF.

Within the scope of the Peace Drive II Program, TUSAS also provides classroom and on-the-job training to 72 PAF technicians. Upon completion of their training, the technicians directly participate in the ongoing modernization activities at TUSAS.

TUSAS, which was established for co-production of F-16 aircraft for the Turkish Air Force in 1984, is one of the major aerospace companies in the world at F-16 manufacturing and modernization, with its experience, capabilities and manpower capacity. After manufacturing and delivering a total of 272 F-16s, TUSAS, which has successfully completed avionics and structural modernization of F-16s of the Royal Jordanian Air Force, currently modernizes 175 F-16s of the Turkish Air Force.

TUSAS is the center of technology in design, development, manufacturing, integration of aerospace systems, modernization and after sales support in Turkey.

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## Machine

Modernization of which systems


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## graphican

USA had also released 1block 52 and two upgraded ones to Pakistan a week back. Are these birds the same 3 F-16s?


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## slapshot

graphican said:


> USA had also released 1block 52 and two upgraded ones to Pakistan a week back. Are these birds the same 3 F-16s?



I was about to ask the same. Can any one provide some information on this?


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## RedBeard

Good news congrats to PAF.

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## farhan_9909

Good.
so the remaining all will be upgraded by Turkey

Thank you my turkish friends

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## farhan_9909

Good.
so the remaining all will be upgraded by Turkey

Thank you my turkish friends

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## Windjammer

Üç F-16 Pakistan'a teslim edildi
09 &#350;ubat 2012 Per&#351;embe 00:00
Türk Havac&#305;l&#305;k ve Uzay Sanayii A.&#350;'nin (TUSA&#350 modernize etti&#287;i Pakistan Hava Kuvvetlerine ait üç F-16 sava&#351; uça&#287;&#305;, Pakistanl&#305; yetkililere törenle teslim edildi.

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## JonAsad

wonder how long we gona keep upgrading those F-16's-

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## Windjammer

JonAsad said:


> wonder how long we gona keep upgrading those F-16's-



Welcome back dear,....... I think this is the first time the F-16s in PAF inventory are going through a MLU programme, bringing them close to the new Block-52 version.

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## RedBeard

TUSAS, which was established for co-production of F-16 aircraft for the Turkish Air Force in 1984, is one of the major aerospace companies in the world in F-16 manufacturing and modernization. *It is also currently modernizing 175 F-16s for the Turkish Air Force*

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## Deno

slapshot said:


> I was about to ask the same. Can any one provide some information on this?



Turkish upgrade program is differend than U.S. U.S will sell you block 52+ if I am not wrong but Turkish upgrade is about upgrading your alreay existing f-16s to block 50+ level CCIP update....

I amy be wrong but it was something like this...


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## RedBeard

Deno said:


> Turkish upgrade program is differend than U.S. U.S will sell you block 52+ if I am not wrong but Turkish upgrade is about upgrading your alreay existing f-16s to block 50+ level CCIP update....
> 
> I amy be wrong but it was something like this...



block 52+ is tecnologically more advanced right?


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## darkinsky

great

when are we going to get those j-10s

f-16 now belongs to previous era


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## Machine

So what are the systems that were upgrated?


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## Bosniak

Machine said:


> So what are the systems that were upgrated?


 
tactical, radio and electronic

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## naseebkhanniazi

can some one tell about detail and source of news ?


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## RedBeard

darkinsky said:


> great
> 
> when are we going to get those j-10s
> 
> f-16 now belongs to previous era



Bye bye darky


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## Deno

RedBeard said:


> block 52+ is tecnologically more advanced right?



BASICLY:

block 52 has better engines than block 50

block 52+ has better engines and software than block 50

block 52 has better enngines but block 50+ has better software

block 52+ has better software than block 52....

What Pakistan bought from U.S= block 52+

What Turkey upgraded for Pakistan= block 50+

Turkish upgrade program is on the same level with F-16 CCIP program.

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## Peregrine

Sharing some pictures would be great.... Just want to see how these upgraded f-16's look like.


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## Deno

Peregrine said:


> Sharing some pictures would be great.... Just want to see how these upgraded f-16's look like.



TAI modernized PAFs F-16 A/B's avonics and software to C/D 50+ level. We have C/D 50+ modernized photos from Egypt and Turkish airforces but this is the first A/B of TAI. We don't know if upgrade deal had include engines/fueltanks...

if it did, here what it will be look like






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLPUlJDtJxY

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## Saifullah Sani



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## SQ8

RedBeard said:


> block 52+ is tecnologically more advanced right?



Well yes.. but it has to be understood that what the upgrade is doing is bringing up the electronics in those F-16's to a level matching Pakistan's brand new F-16 block-52's.
Calling the upgrade to block-50 may be a misnomer.
As F-16 blocks have been named according to the engine they are powered with.
For eg.. Turkey's F-16's are all flying with the general electric F-110 motor. Which is why the latest TuAF F-16's are called Block-50+ 
All of Pakistan's F-16s are powered by Pratt & Whitney F-100's...now..till block 25..every F-16 was powered by PW engines.
From block 30 onwards.. F-16's were given an alternative engine by GE. So now.. a GE motor powered F-16 is numbered ending in a 0.. such as block 30,40,50,60 . and PW engined F-16's have a 2 in the end.. such as Block 32,42,52.

Turkey chose the GE engines... so its latest aircraft are block 50+.

The MLU'ed F-16's of Pakistan are known as AM/BM's in trade jargon. Their capability will mirror the new Block-52's less the CFTs,engine and integrated AIDEWS. 

In other words..and stated correctly.. is that these F-16's are now identical to Turkey's CCIP configuration except the difference in powerplant.

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## Quasar

Oscar said:


> In other words..and stated correctly.. is that these F-16's are now identical to Turkey's CCIP configuration except the difference in powerplant.



if this is the case then Pakistan's F-16s will have 

- The AN/APG-69(V)9 radar that is currently being installed on new F-16 Advanced Block 50/52 aircraft 
- Color cockpit displays 
- The Modular Mission Computer and new avionics processors 
- The Joint Helmet-Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS) 
- The Link 16 datalink 
- New identification-friend-or-foe (IFF) transponders 
- AN/AVS-9 night-vision goggles 
- Upgraded navigation systems; and 
- BAE Systems' AN/ALQ-178(V)5+ electronic-warfare (EW) system, mounted internally, with radar-warning and jamming capabilities for aircraft self-protection

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## british bean

what about the paint job?


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## Nishan_101

Windjammer said:


> Üç F-16 Pakistan'a teslim edildi
> 09 &#350;ubat 2012 Per&#351;embe 00:00
> Türk Havac&#305;l&#305;k ve Uzay Sanayii A.&#350;'nin (TUSA&#350 modernize etti&#287;i Pakistan Hava Kuvvetlerine ait üç F-16 sava&#351; uça&#287;&#305;, Pakistanl&#305; yetkililere törenle teslim edildi.



Masha ALLAH

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Untill the end of time which is 2012

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## untitled

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Untill the end of time which is 2012

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## fatman17

*Within the scope of the Peace Drive II Program, TUSAS also provides classroom and on-the-job training to 72 PAF technicians. Upon completion of their training, the technicians directly participate in the ongoing modernization activities at TUSAS.*

when the time comes to MLU the blk 52's or any further F-16 purchases, then PAF will be able to perform the upgrades at PAC. great move PAF.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Last Hope said:


> *The aircraft, which belonged to Pakistani Air Forces, were modernized in Turkey, and delivered to Pakistan with a ceremony on Wednesday Andolu Agency reported.
> 
> Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc. (TUSAS) delivered three modernized F-16 aircraft to Pakistan.
> *
> The aircraft, which belonged to Pakistani Air Forces, were modernized in Turkey, and delivered to Pakistan with a ceremony on Wednesday.
> 
> Turkish Defense Industry Undersecretary Murad Bayar said that Turkey and Pakistan have successfully cooperated in tactics, radio, electronic war and training test center and military information systems so far.
> 
> Pakistani Deputy Commander of Air Forces Gen. Asim Suleiman said that Pakistan&#8217;s air defense became more successful with the aircraft which were modernized in structural and avionic aspects.
> 
> Pakistani Ambassador to Turkey Muhammad Shaukat Haroon said that the project was a sign of friendship and unity of powers between Turkey and Pakistan.
> 
> TUSAS, by competing with other F-16 manufacturing companies, has been selected as the contractor, in the tender of Pakistan Air Force F-16 Modernization (Peace Drive II) Program and signed a contract with Pakistan Ministry of Defense in June 2009.
> 
> Under the program, TUSAS&#8217;s engineers and technicians perform avionics and structural modernization of a total of 41 F-16 aircraft that are in the inventory of Pakistan Air Force (PAF). The test flights of each modernized aircraft are also performed by TUSAS&#8217;s F-16 Test Pilots.
> 
> The Peace Drive II program, which started in October 2010, is planned to be completed by September 2014. The required parts, material and technical data are furnished to TUSAS in accordance with another contract between U.S. government and PAF.
> 
> Within the scope of the Peace Drive II Program, TUSAS also provides classroom and on-the-job training to 72 PAF technicians. Upon completion of their training, the technicians directly participate in the ongoing modernization activities at TUSAS.
> 
> TUSAS, which was established for co-production of F-16 aircraft for the Turkish Air Force in 1984, is one of the major aerospace companies in the world at F-16 manufacturing and modernization, with its experience, capabilities and manpower capacity. After manufacturing and delivering a total of 272 F-16s, TUSAS, which has successfully completed avionics and structural modernization of F-16s of the Royal Jordanian Air Force, currently modernizes 175 F-16s of the Turkish Air Force.
> 
> TUSAS is the center of technology in design, development, manufacturing, integration of aerospace systems, modernization and after sales support in Turkey.



Picture from the same ceremony. 






A PAF F-16AM clearly showing IFF antennas above nose. Notice PAF written on the board B/W crowed.

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## Ulysses

Nice going Turkey!

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## alimobin memon

f16 am has ? what specs


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## Manticore

alimobin memon said:


> f16 am has ? what specs


http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...6-mlu-specifications-36-blk-52-prospects.html


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## Pakchina

Excellent news. Hope that Pakistan and Turkey will enhance their military cooperation in all sectors just like the existing military cooperation between China and Pakistan.

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## Aamir Hussain

The first aircraft of of a new batch is always retained untill the end of production run for the order. The aircraft is designated as "Lead the Fleet" aircraft. This is done with all other orders as well. Basically, the LTF is done to ensure later modifications or integration of later weapons, avionics, ergonmics etc. that the user might require after the receipt of the first lot of production batch and the flight and PAT cycle is completed. 

The inspection and PAT -- Performance Acceptance Test, is conducted by an independant inspection team on behalf of the user in this case PAF (Paid for and incorporated in the pricing of the program). It is an exhaustive PAT/inspection which is followed up by an exhaustive report to the user on compliance and non-compliance of performance against what was ordered. Mostly the technicians and engineers are ex. USAF or from other airforces with specialisation in the aircraft type they are inspecting. The USAF does an exhaustive flight testing on behalf of user inUS or designated waystation/base. 

Some of the NATO airforces do their own flight testing and accpetance in US. Singapore is one of the few non NATO countries that does their PAT in US.

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## razgriz19

Deno said:


> BASICLY:
> 
> block 52 has better engines than block 50
> 
> block 52+ has better engines and software than block 50
> 
> block 52 has better enngines but block 50+ has better software
> 
> block 52+ has better software than block 52....
> 
> What Pakistan bought from U.S= block 52+
> 
> What Turkey upgraded for Pakistan= block 50+
> 
> Turkish upgrade program is on the same level with F-16 CCIP program.



as far as i know the only difference between block 52 and 50 is that they both have different engines. 52 uses Pratt and Whitney, and 50 uses General Electrics.
everything else is same in both aircrafts.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Block 52+ had a candy dispenser

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## killerx

built JF17 thunder only and spent money on improving JF17 thunder PAF f16 are expensive and to maintain as well


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## fatman17

xTra said:


> Now we can expect the Route for NATO to be opened soon.



conventional wisdom suggests we should.

---------- Post added at 11:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 AM ----------




TOPGUN said:


> Good news however ... what about the news of 18 more blk 52's ? or that just a rumor and any news if US will free up older vipers for us?



at best expect 14 F-16 blk 40's from EDA stocks which will need a MLU

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## Myth_buster_1

40 years later, Pakistan receives last batch of stored F-16s in the world!


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## fatman17

*$5.1B Proposed in Sales, Upgrades, Weapons for Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s*

Aug 02, 2011 16:43 

US military aid held back; US Congressional testimony; China offering a squadron of J-10s; Lockheed Martin ships 10 more upgrade kits. (July 30/11)

On June 28/06, the US DSCA notified Congress via a series of releases of its intention to provide Pakistan with a $5.1 billion Foreign Military Sales package to upgrade the F-16s that serve as the PAF&#8217;s top of the line fighters. Some of these items had been put on hold following the October 2005 earthquake in Pakistan & Kashmir, but the request for 36 new F-16 Block 50/52s is now going ahead, along with new weapons, engine modifications, and upgrade kits for Pakistan&#8217;s older F-16 A/Bs. The buy went through, and was accompanied by the supply of 26 older F-16s from USAF surplus stocks.

These items are detailed below, along with controversies the proposed sales have created, and some of the conditions attached to the sale by the US government&#8230;

&#8226;Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s &#8211; $3 billion
&#8226;Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s &#8211; $650 Million
&#8226;Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits &#8211; $1.3 billion
&#8226;Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR &#8211; $151 Million
&#8226;Deal Updates and Progress [updated]
&#8226;Potential Controversies (July 5, 2006)
&#8226;Additional Readings [updated]

Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s &#8211; $3 billion


PAF F-16D Block 52
The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of up to 36 F-16C Block 50 and F-16D Block 52 two-seater aircraft &#8211; a buy of 18 jets, with an option for another 18. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $3 billion.

The planes will be equipped with the APG-68(V)9 radars, which are the most modern F-16 radar except for the UAE&#8217;s F-16E/F Block 60 &#8220;Desert Falcons&#8221; and their AN/APG-80 AESA. The engine contract was less certain. Pakistan&#8217;s existing F-16s use the Pratt & Whitney F100 engine, the new planes involved a competition between Pratt & Whitney&#8217;s F100-PW-229 or General Electric&#8217;s F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs). Pratt & Whitney kept their customer, and supplied the new F-16s with their F100-PW-229 EEP variant. 

The package for Pakistan&#8217;s new F-16s also includes:

&#8226;7 spare F100-PW-229 EEP or F110-GE-129 IPE engines (F100-PW-229 EEP selected)
&#8226;7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets
&#8226;36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
&#8226;36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II
&#8226;36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircraft&#8217;s sides to give them extra range
&#8226;36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; see tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems
&#8226;36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems
&#8226;36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
&#8226;36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare (ALQ-211 AIDEW) Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (picked); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM
&#8226;1 Unit Level Trainer
&#8226;Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability. 
The principal contractors under Pakistan&#8217;s &#8220;Peace Drive&#8221; buy will be: 

&#8226;Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, TX
&#8226;Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control, Dallas, TX
&#8226;BAE Advanced Systems Greenlawn, NY
&#8226;Boeing Corporation Seattle, WA 
&#8226;Boeing Integrated Defense Systems: St Louis, MO; Long Beach, CA; San Diego, CA 
&#8226;Raytheon Company: Lexington, MA; Goleta, CA 
&#8226;Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, AZ 
&#8226;Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX 
&#8226;Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD 
&#8226;United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT; or
&#8226;General Electric Aircraft Engines in Cincinnati, OH

There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support and program management of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF]. 


Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s &#8211; $650 Million 

To equip those new F-16s, the Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:

&#8226;500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)
&#8226;12 AMRAAM training missiles &#8211; these have seeker warheads but lack engines
&#8226;200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X.
&#8226;240 LAU-129/A Launchers &#8211; these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles. 
&#8226;500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits
&#8226;1,600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 (500 lb.) and GBU-24s (2,000 lb.) with dual laser/GPS guidance
&#8226;800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs 
&#8226;700 BLU-109 2,000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse
&#8226;Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability will also be provided. 
The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $650 million. The principal contractors will be: 

&#8226;BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY 
&#8226;Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX 
&#8226;Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX 
&#8226;Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX 
&#8226;Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD 

There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF format].


Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits &#8211; $1.3 billion

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of: 

&#8226;APG-68v9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar, which is a much smaller improvement on earlier F-16s. The APG-68 with SAR is far better at air to ground work, and can be used to monitor ground activity.
&#8226;Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
&#8226;AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
&#8226;AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems
&#8226;Have Quick I/II Radios
&#8226;Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT)
&#8226;SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability 
&#8226;Reconnaissance pod capability
&#8226;Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (used for training exercises)
&#8226;MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits 
&#8226;21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM; 
&#8226;60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems; 
&#8226;1 Unit Level Trainer; and 
&#8226;10 APG-68v9 spare radar sets. 
&#8226;Radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support. 

JHMCSThe total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $1.3 billion.

According to the US DSCA, Pakistan intends to purchase the MLU Program equipment &#8220;to enhance survivability, communications connectivity, and extend the useful life of its F-16A/B fighter aircraft. The modifications and upgrades in this proposed sale will permit Pakistan&#8217;s F-16A/B squadron to operate safely, and enhance Pakistan&#8217;s conventional deterrent capability. Pakistan&#8217;s air fleet can readily use these updates to enhance and extend the life of its aircraft.&#8221;

The principal contractors will be: 

&#8226;BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY 
&#8226;Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX 
&#8226;Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX 
&#8226;Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX 
&#8226;Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD

Turkish Aerospace Industries isn&#8217;t mentioned here, but they ended up with a contract to perform the upgrades on 41 F-16A/B aircraft. They&#8217;ve been doing similar work for Turkey, and for other F-16 customers in the middle east.

There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives. See DSCA release [PDF].

InsideDefense.com makes the interesting observation that Pakistan doesn&#8217;t have 60 F-16s to upgrade. The clear implication is that the Pakistani government is interested in buying used F-16s and upgrading them, which proved to be the case. As part of the deal for new planes, in Sept 30/06 the USA also agreed to deliver 26 of the &#8220;Peace Gate III/IV&#8221; F-16A/B Block 15OCUs that had been ordered in 1988-1989, then embargoed when Pakistan tested nuclear weapons. After the embargo, the planes had been diverted for use as aggressor combat training aircraft by USAF and the US Navy.


Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR &#8211; $151 Million


F100 Engine TestThe third contract involves Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million. 

More specifically, the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of:

&#8226;14 F100-PW-220E engines
&#8226;14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits
&#8226;De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft
&#8226;Support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program.
The principal contractors will be: 

&#8226;Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX 
&#8226;United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT.

There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale, but implementation of the engine modifications and UP/STAR repairs will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF].


Deal Updates and Progress


PAF F-16A
Feb 6/12: The PAF receives its 18th and final new F-16 Block 52, and its its first 2 Mid-Life Upgrade F-16s, at PAF Shahbaz airbase. The last new F-16 was an F-16D that had remained in the US for testing & trials. F-16.net.

July 30/11: J-10s. The PAF will be flying a squadron of Chinese J-10B fighters alongside its F-16s, as a gift from China. The official offer was reportedly presented to the Pakistan Army&#8217;s Chief of General Staff, Lt. Gen. Waheed Arshad, during a week-long visit to Beijing.

The Chinese have also pledged 50 co-developed JF-17 Thunder fighters in recent months, but the J-10Bs are different because they offer total performance on par with, or even superior to, the PAF&#8217;s new F-16C/D Block 52 fighter standard. Pakistan Kakhuda Hafiz | Economic Times of India | Defense Update | DefenseWorld.

July 29/11: Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co. in Fort Worth, TX receives a $42.3 million firm-fixed-price and cost-plus-fixed-fee contract for 10 additional Pakistan F-16 A/B Block 15 Aircraft Enhanced Modernization Program kits. TThe ASC/WWMK at Wright-Patterson AFB, OH manages the contract on behalf of its foreign Military Sale client (FA8615-07-C-6032, PO 0038). 

July 26/11: Fragile alliance. At the US House Foreign Affairs Committee&#8217;s hearings on &#8220;Reassessing American Grand Strategy in South Asia,&#8221; John J. Tkacik, the U.S. Department of State Bureau of Intelligence and Research&#8217;s Former Chief of China Analysis, submits &#8220;The Enemy of Hegemony is My Friend: Pakistan&#8217;s de facto &#8216;Alliance&#8217; with China&#8221; [PDF]. Key excerpt:

&#8220;China has always been Pakistan&#8217;s most important strategic ally,2 and the intensity of Pakistan&#8217;s relationship with the United States has always been a subset of Pakistan&#8217;s all-consuming strategic calculus about India&#8230;. For the United States to achieve a true strategic partnership with Pakistan, it must share Pakistan&#8217;s posture toward India. It follows, then, that subduing India also demands acquiescing in China&#8217;s ultimate hegemony in Asia. In reassessing America&#8217;s grand strategy in South Asia, the United States must first reassess its global &#8220;grand strategy.&#8221; If America can live with an Asia under Chinese hegemony, and with a crippled India, then America can have Pakistan&#8217;s enthusiastic partnership against the Taliban. Decisions like this are, as they say, above my pay grade.&#8221;

July 22/11: L-3 Communications&#8217; Link Simulation and Training division in Arlington, TX receives a $20.6 million firm-fixed-price contract for 1 aircrew training system (ATS) to support Pakistan air force F-16 pilot training. Work will be performed at Arlington, Texas, overseen by ASC/WNSK at Wright-Patterson AFB, OH, on behalf of their Pakistani FMS client. Both simulators, scheduled for delivery in 2013, will be installed and networked at the PAF&#8217;s Shahbaz Air Base.

The ATS consists of 2 upgraded F-16 ATS devices with an 18 panel &#8220;simusphere&#8221; for 360 degree viewing: a new F-16A Block 15/52 ATS; and a less flexible new F-16C Block 52 ATS. The contract also includes 21 months contractor logistics support (12 months on-site and 9 months on-call); common ATS Block 15 and Block 52 software load; high fidelity cockpit; 360 horizontal X250; version MMC 7000 hardware and software; geo-specific database of Pakistan with high resolution features; full simulation of the APG-68v9 radar with digital radar land mass simulation; full weapons simulation incl. Maverick missile, targeting pod, JHMCS helmet mounted sights; threat environment A-G and spot jamming simulation; emergency procedures and malfunctions simulation; and an instructor-operator station to make pilots&#8217; lives difficult in pre-planned ways. Fort Worth Star-Telegram | Pakistan&#8217;s The Nation.

July 20/11: Georgia Tech Applied Research Corp. in Atlanta, GA receiveds a $9.2 million cost-plus-fixed-fee Foreign Military Sales contract to integrate ITT&#8217;s AN/ALQ-211v9 AIDEW pod and software into Pakistan&#8217;s existing AN/ALQ-213 [PDF] countermeasures set from Terma. The ALQ-213 CMS electronic warfare suite provides centralized control/resources management of the F-16s&#8217; defensive suites, so the pod and CMS controller need to work together. 

Work will be performed in Atlanta, GA, and is expected to be complete by July 2014. The ESG/PKS DTIC at Offutt AFB, NB, manages the contract on behalf of its FMS client (HC1047-05-D-4000). 

July 19/11: The US GAO releases report #GAO-11-786R: &#8220;Pakistan Assistance: Relatively Little of the $3 Billion in Requested Assistance is Subject to State&#8217;s Certification of Pakistan&#8217;s Progress on Nonproliferation and Counterterrorism Issues&#8221;.

July 9/11: After the USA finds and kills Osama Bin Laden, Pakistan&#8217;s intelligence agency murders a journalist and expels American military trainers. In response, the USA delays and may cancel about $800 million in military aid and equipment, or about 40% of its annual total. 

US officials say that the F-16s are unaffected. Instead, the blockage involves about $300 million to reimburse Pakistan for some of the costs of deploying more than 100,000 soldiers along the Afghan border, hundreds of millions of dollars in training assistance and military hardware like rifles, ammunition, body armor and bomb-disposal gear that were part of the expelled training effort, and items like radios, night-vision goggles and helicopter spare parts, where Pakistan has denied visas to the American personnel needed to operate the equipment. Less double-dealing with terrorists would reportedly free up this aid, but Pakistan&#8217;s response is that they&#8217;ll rely on China to make up the gap. ABC News | CBS News | NY Times.

July 5/11: ITT Systems Corp. in Clifton, NJ receives a not to exceed $49.1 million firm-fixed-price contract for the ALQ-211v9 AIDEW Pod, which was picked as the electronic countermeasures choice for Pakistan&#8217;s new F-16C/D Block 52s, and is also on the list for its upgraded F-16s. This award fits the new fighter order, and includes 18 pods, 4 pod shells, 2 antenna coupler sets, 2 lab test benches, associated data, and systems software and support equipment. 

Work will be performed at Clifton, N.J. This contract is a Foreign Military Sales requirement for Pakistan, managed by the WR-ALC/GRWKBat Robins Air Force Base, GA (FA8540-11-C-0012). See also June 26/08 entry.
May 1/11: Osama Bin Laden is killed in a US Navy SEAL raid, which happens without notifying Pakistan. As a result, Osama is actually present in Abbotabad when the SEALs arrive, living comfortably about a mile from Pakistan&#8217;s top military college.

March 1/11: Aviation Week reports that Pakistan is in negotiations with the U.S. to get more Lockheed Martin F-16s over and above the 63 currently in service (18 F-16C/D Block 52, 45 F-16A/B Blocck 15/OCU that will be upgraded). No numbers have been specified, by Pakistani officials see it as part of a dual-track strategy that will also include more spending on domestic projects like the JF-17 Thunder, to improve Pakistan&#8217;s own manufacturing capacity.

At present, PAF Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleman says that 4 F-16A/Bs went to the USA for technical verification inspections and upgrade kit development, and the 1st 3 F-16A/Bs are now undergoing the upgrade at Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). All of Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s are expected to be upgraded by 2013-2014. At present, no systems exist that would bridge the F-16 and JF-17 fleets, but Air Chief Marshall Suleman says that Pakistan intends to eventually field a supplementary datalink, which would work alongside the Link 16 systems carried by the F-16s.

The comments come as the Pakistani military is also discussing a deal to buy Chinese submarines as a supplement to their French Agosta-class boats, as an intended prelude to joint submarine development. These plans are all being made against a backdrop of a serious domestic insurgency and widespread flooding damage, which have combined to create over 1 million internal refugees, and threaten the government&#8217;s medium term ability to maintain control of the country. Even as the state is very obviously fraying in other ways.

Jan 20/11: Goodrich Corporation of Chelmsford, MA receives a $71.9 million contract for 5 DB-110 Pods, 2 datalink upgrades to existing pods, 2 fixed ground stations, 1 mobile ground station, and 4 ground station datalink receiver kits, plus initial spares, technical manuals, minimal initial engineering support for final in-country installation, integration, testing and a study for a potential fusion center. This supports Pakistani F-16 aircraft. At this time, $17.3 million has been committed by the ASC/WINK at Wright-Patterson Air Force, OH on behalf of their Foreign Military Sale client (FA8620-11-C-3006).

The DB-110 reconnaissance pod offers day and night capabilities, and has been ordered by a number of F-16 customers, including Egypt, Greece, Morocco, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, and the UAE. DB-110s were not mentioned in the DSCA upgrade requests, but they are clearly part of that effort now. Reports indicate that installations began in June 2010; this is apparently a follow-on order. A Jan 12/11 US FedBizOpps solicitation for associated imagery analysis training is a useful reminder that buying the pods is not enough to field a useful capability. See also Aviation Week re: DB-110.

Dec 13/10: The last batch of 6 F-16 Block 52s arrive a bit early at Shahbaz AB, after a stop over at Lajes Field, Azores. This finishes the 18-plane order. F-16.NET.

Nov 20/10: Another 6 new F-16 Block 52s land at the Shahbaz airbase near Jacobabad, in Pakistan&#8217;s Sindh province. That makes 12 so far, and another batch of 6 F-16 C/D Block 52s are expected to arrive in December 2010, to finish the initial 18-plane order. Pakistan&#8217;s DAWN | Associated Press of Pakistan | Daily Times | The Nation | Pak Tribune | IANS.

Oct 30/10: Another 3 new F-16 Block 52 aircraft are handed over at an induction ceremony at Shahbaz Air Base near Jacobabad, Pakistan. This is the 2nd batch of new F-16s delivered, and all 18 fighter aircraft are expected to arrive by January 2012.

In addition to the delivery of these new aircraft, the U.S. is working with the PAF to update 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the U.S. Foreign Military Financing security assistance program. The first batch of updated F-16s is scheduled to arrive in Pakistan in early 2012. US CENTCOM.

July 27/10: The Press Trust of India reports that the first AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles have arrived in Pakistan, and will equip the new F-16C/D block 52s. PTI.

June 24/10: The Pentagon announces that it will deliver the first 3 new F-16 Block 52s in Pakistan on June 26/10, with the other 15 arriving during 2010-2011. USAF Maj. Todd Robbins, the the office of the undersecretary of the Air Force for international affairs&#8217; Pakistan country director, is quoted saying that Pakistan is paying $1.4 billion for the 18 new F-16 Block 52s. They&#8217;re also paying $1.3 billion for upgrades to its existing F-16 fleet, which are to begin delivery in 2012.

The new F-16s will add night, all-weather, and precision-attack capabilities, and Pakistani pilots have been training at Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson, including night-attack training. The PAF recently completed training for 4 instructors and 5 flight leads (q.v. May 5/10 entry). The US Embassy in Islamabad later cited June 27/10 as the day of the formal induction ceremony.

Beyond the F-16s, the USA has provided over $4 billion in assistance over the last 3 years. The USA and Pakistan are working to address the current deficit of trust, which has begun to repair itself since Pakistan&#8217;s government became more serious about fighting al-Qaeda and the Taliban in Pakistan. In March 2010, the United States and Pakistan held their first ministerial-level strategic dialogue in Washington, DC, co-chaired by US Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and Pakistani Foreign Minister Makhdoom Shah Mahmood Qureshi. High-level officials from both governments participated in the dialogue, including Secretary of Defense Gates and Navy Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Follow-up meetings took place in Pakistan in early June 2010.

June 14/10: A report in India&#8217;s Samay Live says that Pakistan will face strict monitoring of its new F-16s, and quotes United States Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asia, Robert Blake. Samay Live states that:

&#8220;Sources said the US Air Force personnel will arrive during the delivery of the F-16s and supervise not only the air base where they will be deployed but also the operations carried out by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) against the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Though the jets will be flown by PAF pilots, the logistics, management and control of the F-16s will be with the US personnel. The [18] Block 50/52 model F-16 jets equipped with latest missiles will arrive at the Shahbaz Airbase in Jacoabad in the last week of June&#8230;&#8221;

Readers are cautioned that this description may be an overstatement or misunderstanding of normal support and inspection provisions; without a firm statement from an identifiable individual, it&#8217;s hard to tell.

May 21/10: Lockheed Aeronautics in Fort Worth, TX receives a $325.5 million contract to develop, integrate and deliver 53 F-16 upgrade kits: 35 mid-life upgrade kits for Pakistani F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft, and 18 retrofit kits for Pakistani F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft. 

At this time, $121.2 million has been committed by the 312th AESG/SYK at Wright-Patterson AFB, OH, who manages these efforts on Pakistan&#8217;s behalf (FA8615-07-C-6032).

May 4/10: Eight Pakistani F-16 A/B pilots graduate from training at Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ, flying US Air National Guard F-16 C/D Block 25s. They are the first Pakistani pilots to train in the United States since 1983. Their training involves 2 1/2 months reviewing military aviation terminology at the Defense Language Institute at Lackland Air Force Base, TX; 7 months of flight training at Tucson International Airport, including a transition course, flight lead upgrade training, and instructor pilot certification; and 2 weeks of additional F-16 Block 52 instruction. The schedule was compressed, and the pilots flew 5 flights per week, instead of the usual 3. 

Pakistani air force Wing Commander Ghazanfar Latif cited to the ability to run precision engagements and attack at night as key difference from the F-16 he&#8217;s been flying for the last 12 years, capabilities that can lower collateral damage. The flip side was cited by Squadron Leader Yasir Malik: the need to manage and prioritize all that additional information from the radar, datalinks, and other sensors, which was a key part of their training. Their instructors in this effort included USAF flight commander Maj. Windy Hendrick, and her compatriots in the 162nd Fighter Wing. USAF.

Nov 16/09: Pratt & Whitney announces that they have delivered the first F100-PW-229 Engine Enhancement Package (EEP) engine to Pakistan, for installation in their F-16 Block 52 aircraft. The engine program is valued at approximately $150 million, and is scheduled for delivery in 2009 and 2010.

The F100-PW-229 EEP is the latest evolution of the F100 engine family, with features designed to reduce scheduled engine maintenance by up to 30%, by extending the depot inspection interval from 4300 &#8211; 6000 TACs.

Oct 13/09: Lockheed Martin unveils the first of 18 new PAF F-16s in ceremonies at its Fort Worth, TX facility. Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Chief of Staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Quamar Suleman accepted the F-16D Block 52 aircraft on behalf of his nation, as the first delivery of the &#8220;Peace Drive I&#8221; order. It will be delivered to the US government for transfer in December 2009, with the remainder of the order following in 2010. See also Flight International, which has video.

July 29/08: Pakistan&#8217;s request to transfer 2/3 of its anti-terrorism aid to fund its F-16 program meets strong resistance from the US Congress.

June 28/08: In a ceremony at Mushaf Air Base in Pakistan, Acting Commander of US Central Command, Lt. Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, hands over 4 &#8220;excess defense article&#8221; F-16 fighter from the USAF to Pakistan Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed. The US DSCA release says that:

&#8220;F-16s continue to hold a special place in the U.S. &#8211; *****stani security relationship. The four EDA aircraft are part of a larger package of 14 aircraft. With the most recent delivery, the USAF has transferred eight aircraft to Pakistan. Another four EDA F-16 aircraft are scheduled to arrive in Pakistan on 28 July 2008. The final two aircraft are part of the Pakistan Mid-Life Update program and will arrive in Pakistan in De*cember 2011. The entire F-16 program for Pakistan includes the purchase of eighteen F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft, MLU for 46 aircraft, and a munitions package that includes AM*RAAM, JDAM, and Enhanced Paveway guidance kits.&#8221;

June 26/08: The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency announces [PDF format] Pakistan&#8217;s official request for 21 AN/ALQ-211v9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) Pods, plus software support, repair and return, spare and repair parts, support equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related elements of program support. The estimated cost is $75 million. 

Pakistan intends to purchase the AIDEWS pods to enhance its existing F-16 fighter aircraft, and create fleet commonality with its new F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft. See also our March 19/08 entry; the original DSCA bulletin for mid-life upgrades had mentioned AN/ ALQ-131 or AN/ALQ-148 pods instead.

The principal contractor will be ITT Corporation of Clifton, NJ. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and ITT representatives for technical reviews, support, and program management over a period of up to 15 years.

June 4/08: The Associated Press of Pakistan reports that Pakistan has already received 2 refurbished F-16s, and is due to receive 4 more in June and another 4 in July, bringing the total to 10.

April 18/08: Lockheed Martin Aeronautics of Fort Worth, TX received a modified contract for $31.5 million, covering one-time engineering activity for aircraft production program changes for the Peace Drive I (Pakistan) program for foreign military sales F-16 Block 52M aircraft. At this time $15.75 million has been obligated. Wright-Patterson AFB, OH issued the contract (FA8615-07-C-6031, P00005).

April 18/08: Lockheed Martin Aeronautics of Fort Worth, TX received a modified firm fixed price contract for $27 million, covering one-time engineering activity for developmental support equipment and country standard technical order for the Peace Drive I (Pakistan) Program for foreign military sales F-16 Block 52M aircraft. At this time $13.5 million has been obligated. Wright-Patterson AFB, OH issued the contract (FA8615-07-C-6031, P00004).

March 19/08: ITT Avionics of Clifton, NJ received a modified firm fixed price contract for $78.2 million for Foreign Military Sales of the ALQ-211v4 Advanced Integrated Defense Electronics Warfare system to the country of Pakistan, for use on the F-16 aircraft being procured under separate acquisition by the F-16 program office. The contract also includes associated spares, support equipment, training, engineering services, and flight test support and data, and $39 million has been obligated so far. Robins AFB, GA issued the contracts (FA8523-07-C-0008-PZ0001).

The DefenseLINK announcement was wrong in several respects. It has been corrected above, and Robins AFB&#8217;s PA office offers further background, which connects it to the overlapping March 30/07 announcement:

&#8220;Contract FA8523-07-C-0008 was awarded in March 2007 to ITT in Clifton NJ. The obligated funds on the initial contract was $39 mil. The contract was modified in March 2008 to add the additional funds Of $39.2 mil and to definitize all outstanding contract requirements. This was not a new award, the contract was awarded in March 2007.&#8221;

Dec 31/07: Lockheed Martin Aeronautics of Fort Worth, TX received a firm-fixed-price contract modification for $498.2 million, covering Foreign Military Sales of 12 new F-16C Block 52 and 6 new 2-seat F-16D Block 52 new aircraft to Pakistan. At this time, $497.6 million has been obligated. Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, OH issued the contract (FA8615-07-C-6031-P0002). 

Dec 14/07: Raytheon Missile Systems of Tucson, AZ received a firm fixed price contract for $161.3 million. This action provides 300 miscellaneous unit air foil groups, 300 miscellaneous armament unit enhanced computer control groups, 1,298 weapon guidance unit computer control groups, 1,300 stabilizing and retarding unit air foil groups, 600 global positioning system adapter kits, 1 lot enhanced Paveway III and test equipment spares, 1 lot enhanced Paveway II, 700 certain adapter groups, 6 readiness test set, 6 bomb tool kits, 3 lots of enhanced Paveway tool sets, 3 each common munitions bit/reprogramming equipment adapter kits, 1 each mission planning software, 1 lot DATA. This effort supports foreign military sales to Pakistan. At this time $75.7 million has been obligated. The 784th Combat Sustainment Group (AFMC) at Hill Air Force Base, UT issued the contract (FA8213-08-C-0028).

Enhanced Paveways use a combination of laser and GPS/INS guidance. The laser designator offers better accuracy, and is compatible with targeting pods like Pakistan&#8217;s forthcoming Sniper ATPs. GPS/INS benefits include the ability to function through fog, dust storms, clouds, smoke, or other obscurants, and can be employed in the absence of a laser designator as long as Global Positioning System coordinates are available for the target.

April 27/07: Pakistan orders 22 of Lockheed Martin&#8217;s AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods under a $54.6 million firm-fixed-price contract. Since Raytheon&#8217;s ATFLIR is only integrated with F/A-18s, and Northrop Grumman&#8217;s LITENING AT is a joint development with Israel&#8217;s RAFAEL, the choice is not surprising. Sniper pods have also been referred to as PANTERA pods in the past. See &#8220;Pakistan Joins List of Sniper ATP Customers&#8221; for more.

March 30/07: ITT Avionics in Clifton, NJ received a $78 million firm-fixed-price and time and materials contract for &#8220;Foreign Military Sales of the AN/ALQ-173 (V) advanced integrated defense electronics warfare to the country of Pakistan.&#8221; Associated spares, support equipment, training, engineering services, flight test support and data are also being acquired. Solicitations began February 2007, negotiations were complete March 2007, and work will be complete January 2010. The Headquarters Warner Robins Air Logistics Center at Robins Air Force Base, GA issued the contract (FA8523-07-C-0008).

Oddly enough, the AN/ALQ-173 was not among the many internal ECM alternatives listed in the official US DSCA announcement.

Dec 5/06: Lockheed Martin Corp. in Fort Worth, TX received a $144 million firm-fixed-price and time and materials contract for 12 operational single place F-16C Block 52 aircraft and 6 operational two place F-16D Block 52+ aircraft. This will begin readying materials to manufacture the aircraft, and $78.4 million has been obligated at this time. Aircraft purchases will be accomplished under the firm-fixed price portion of the contract, and work will be complete by November 2010. The Headquarters Aeronautical Systems Center at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, OH issued the contract (FA8615-07-C-6031).

Nov 17/06: Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, AZ received a $269.6 million firm-fixed-price contract modification, exercising an option to purchase 500 AIM-120C5 AMRAAM missiles and rehost on behalf of Pakistan (100%). Work will be complete April 2011. The Headquarters Medium Range Missile System Group at Eglin Air Force Base, FL issued the contract (FA8675-05-C-0070/P00028).

Nov 15/06: Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems in Linthicum Heights, MD received half of a $99.5 million firm-fixed-price contract for &#8220;government furnished property for the Government of Pakistan&#8221; under the F-16 Block 50/52 new aircraft and modernization program. &#8220;The procurement of 54 AN/APG-68 (V)9 Radar Systems will be accomplished under the firm-fixed-price portion of the contract.&#8221; A January 10, 2007 Northrop Grumman release clarifies: this order is for 52 systems (18 new + 34 upgrade kits), with a 44 radar option to follow (18 new + 26 upgrade kits).

Oct 2/06: India Defence reports that Pakistan and USA have signed a letter of acceptance for these deals, following a Sept 30/06 ceremony in Rawalpindi were Pakistan&#8217;s military is headquartered. It said that the United States will supply 18 new F-16 aircraft, as well as an unspecified number of upgraded second-hand F-16s. Previous reports have said the number of second hand aircraft Pakistan was considering buying was 36, which would make for 18 of each.

India Defence adds that &#8220;Both sides had expected to wrap up the deal a month earlier, but negotiations dragged on because of strings Washington wanted attached.&#8221; The USA has clear concerns regarding technology transfer from the F-16s or associated weapons it sells to 3rd countries like China, which has close military ties with Pakistan.While the US was reluctant to discuss details, Assistant Secretary of State for political-military affairs John Hillen was more open with Congress on July 20/06.

In his testimony to the House of Representatives&#8217; International Relations Committee, Hillen reportedly said that the United States was withholding unspecified technologies &#8220;that would usually go with an F-16,&#8221; including ones that would let it &#8220;be used in offensive ways to penetrate air space of another country that was highly defended&#8221;. It added that Pakistan&#8217;s F-16 fleet and its munitions would be segregated from aircraft supplied by other countries, so that unauthorized engineers could not get access to the U.S.-made planes, and that U.S. personnel would carry out inventories of the F-16s and their associated systems every 6 months. There had even been a proposal that F-16 flights outside Pakistani air space, including for exercises with other countries, would have to be approved by the U.S. government in advance. It is not clear whether this requirement ever got beyond the proposal stage.

As part of the deal, the USA also agreed to deliver 26 of the &#8220;Peace Gate III/IV&#8221; F-16A/B Block 15OCUs that had been ordered in 1988-1989, then embargoed when Pakistan tested nuclear weapons. The planes had been diverted for use as aggressor combat training aircraft by USAF and the US Navy. Source.

July 20/06: Here&#8217;s the first concerned speech from an opposed Congressman: Eliot Engel [D-NY], citing Pakistan&#8217;s support for terrorism in India. Mr Engel is a senior member of the House International Relations Committee, and was one of the first Members of Congress to come out in favour of the proposed India-US nuclear energy deal. He&#8217;ll be making his views public at the July 20, 2006 House International Relations Committee hearing on the Pakistan sales &#8211; and that meeting will tell us if opposition to the deal has real traction.

Potential Controversies: July 2006


ISAF, S. Afghanistan
(click to view full)The DSCA has said that &#8220;Release of this system would not significantly reduce India&#8217;s quantitative or qualitative military advantage.&#8221; India disagrees, and military experts in Delhi will likely note that the same equipment (GPS, targeting pods, bunker-busters) that could potentially find uses against al-Qaeda terrorists in Pakistan&#8217;s &#8220;lawless frontier&#8221; could also be used in precision strikes on India&#8217;s military facilities in the event of war.

The DSCA counters that release of the F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft to Pakistan &#8220;will neither affect the regional balance of power nor introduce a new technology as this level of capability or higher already exists in other countries in the region.&#8221; India does operate more advanced SU-30MKI aircraft with R-77 &#8220;AMRAAMski&#8221; missiles, advanced avionics, et. al.; these are superior in range, armament, and maneuverability to Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s, and will remain so. Meanwhile, India&#8217;s $7-10 billion MRCA competition is certain to introduce 125-200 aircraft that are certain to be more advanced than the F-16 Block 50/52.

The US DSCA adds in its submission to Congress that &#8220;The modification of the engines and Falcon UP/STAR structural updates will provide capable F-16&#8217;s that can be used for close air support in ongoing operations contributing to the GWOT (Global War On Terror).&#8221; The DSCA also cites the June 2004 designation of Pakistan as a Major Non-North Atlantic Treaty Organization Ally in its submission. The British commander of NATO&#8217;s ISAF force in Southern Afghanistan sees Pakistan&#8217;s role in a rather different light, however; he recently noted that al-Qaeda in Afghanistan is still run out of Pakistan (specifically Quetta), with Pakistani knowledge and even support from Islamist elements in its security apparatus. Ah, the dynamics of counter-insurgency in tribal societies. Pakistan angrily denies this, of course.

India&#8217;s objections to this sale have been muted thus far, and phrased carefully to emphasize their effect on India-Pakistan ties rather than India-US ties. Meanwhile, President Bush&#8217;s personal diplomacy approach has fostered a strong relationship with Gen. Musharraf that is inclined to view such requests favorably as part of the USA&#8217;s 3-corner balancing act in the region. Barring unusual circumstances, therefore, it&#8217;s reasonable to expect this sale to go through with little more than a concerned speech or two in Congress.

December 2007 Update: 

The sale did go through with little more than concerned speeches in Congress, though there have been ongoing efforts to pressure the Pakistani government via threats of delayed or canceled weapon sales, due in large part to the security situation across the de facto line of government/ al-Qaeda control in western Pakistan.

The Benazir Bhutto assassination, and the strong likelihood that the Bhuttos&#8217; PPP party will ascend to power following the coming Pakistani election, is also likely to remove some of the pressure the US Congress has been placing on Pakistan. In the short term, a delay in the elections could result in symbolic weapons sales delays until elections are held, while construction of the F-16s et. al. continues for delivery after that date anyway. Once those elections are held, a combination of sympathy and diplomatic imperatives are likely to mute further resistance to weapons sales in the US Congress. 

It remains less clear whether Asif Ali Zardari &#8220;Mr. 10%&#8221; Bhutto&#8217;s ascension to power will successfully address that country&#8217;s ongoing civil war &#8211; and what that will mean in a year or two, when the jets are due to be delivered.


Additional Readings

&#8226;Pakistan Air Force. Official web site.
&#8226;Wikipedia &#8211; Pakistan Air Force. Very good reference.
&#8226;Absolute Astronomy &#8211; F-16 Fighting Falcon. The best source for distinguishing the F-16&#8217;s wide array of variants, and what that means for the aircraft&#8217;s capabilities.
&#8226;F-16.NET &#8211; Pakistan Fiza&#8217;ya/ Pakistan Air Force &#8211; PAF
&#8226;DID &#8211; Pakistan & China&#8217;s JF-17 Fighter Program. The F-16&#8217;s counterpart in the future PAF, which will also include the more advanced Chinese J-10B/&#8221;JF-20.&#8221;
&#8226;DID &#8211; US GAO Criticizes [US] CSF Aid to Pakistan
&#8226;US House Committee on Foreign Affairs, Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee (July 26/11) &#8211; The Enemy of Hegemony is My Friend: Pakistan&#8217;s de facto &#8216;Alliance&#8217; with China [PDF]. By China Business Intelligence President John J. Tkacik, at hearings on &#8220;Reassessing American Grand Strategy in South Asia.&#8221; See also HTML version.
&#8226;GAO (July 19/11, #GAO-11-786R) &#8211; Pakistan Assistance: Relatively Little of the $3 Billion in Requested Assistance is Subject to State&#8217;s Certification of Pakistan&#8217;s Progress on Nonproliferation and Counterterrorism Issues
&#8226;Real Clear World (June 20/11) &#8211; Why the U.S. Still Needs Pakistan. By STRATFOR CEO George Friedman.
Tags: pakistanf-16, pakf-16


_all you ever wanted to know about the F-16 deal!_

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## SQ8

Quasar said:


> if this is the case then Pakistan's F-16s will have
> 
> - *BAE Systems' AN/ALQ-178(V)5+ electronic-warfare (EW) system, mounted internally, with radar-warning and jamming capabilities for aircraft self-protection*



Pakistan has chosen a different system from ITT.


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## Najam Khan

Quasar said:


> if this is the case then Pakistan's F-16s will have
> - AN/AVS-9 night-vision goggles
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Is it included too? Question is what advantage NVG will provide without WAC HUD and LANTRIN?, Adjusting cockpit lights might be a solution but it will increase chances of disorientation especially during High G maneuvers...hence i doubt PAF will purchase them.


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## Najam Khan

Presence of a strong internal jammer like AN/ALQ-187 jammer was felt during Anatolian Eagle exercises, our F-16s had to carry -131 at center line pod unlike Turkish/US/NATO F-16s. Its good that now in MLU we will have a self protection EW suite too.

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## Aamir Hussain

I have come accross some where that all older F-16 were infact upgraded to OCU (Operational Capability Upgrade) standard and wendt through the Falcon Star Upgrade as well. Basically, bringing the the radar close to APG 66 (Available to MLU a/c) configuration and structural enhnacement, doubling the life of the airframe thorugh the Falcon Star upgrade. 

If I recall, PAF had asked for 60 MLU kits intially. That basically meant 34 Peace Gate I through II ( 6 attrition losses - if I am not mistaken). And delivery of 26 PG III to IV aircraft ( Delivery not yet fully completed). The delivery of withheld a/c was part of the deal signed in 2006 for the 18 + 18 ( Optional -- approvals granted by Congress) new F-16's.

The request for 60 MLU kits would then make sense i.e. remaining 34 PG I & II a/c plus 24 PG III & IV a/c = 60 kits. But I believe we did not eventually buy the 60 kits but a lower number.

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## SQ8

Najam Khan said:


> Quasar said:
> 
> 
> 
> if this is the case then Pakistan's F-16s will have
> - AN/AVS-9 night-vision goggles
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Is it included too? *Question is what advantage NVG will provide without WAC HUD and LANTRIN?*, Adjusting cockpit lights might be a solution but it will increase chances of disorientation especially during High G maneuvers...hence i doubt PAF will purchase them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Newer cockpit displays and advancement in NVG tech have eliminated the problem of lighting that existed with earlier NVG systems. There has been a trial of NVG's with our Mirage-V fleet and the reports were encouraging.. although they used ones meant for helicopter crews.
> The A-10 pilots use it regardless of the Lantrin system being there or not..
> In our case, they can be effective tools for night time strikes(after all..the line being paraded here to the US is that these upgrades are for the WoT)
> They are however.. not meant to be used for A2A engagements.
Click to expand...

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## Deno

razgriz19 said:


> as far as i know the only difference between block 52 and 50 is that they both have different engines. 52 uses Pratt and Whitney, and 50 uses General Electrics.
> everything else is same in both aircrafts.


 
That is what I said praticly.  block-52's engine is stronger than block 50's engine.


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> *$5.1B Proposed in Sales, Upgrades, Weapons for Pakistans F-16s*
> 
> Aug 02, 2011 16:43
> 
> US military aid held back; US Congressional testimony; China offering a squadron of J-10s; Lockheed Martin ships 10 more upgrade kits. (July 30/11)
> 
> On June 28/06, the US DSCA notified Congress via a series of releases of its intention to provide Pakistan with a $5.1 billion Foreign Military Sales package to upgrade the F-16s that serve as the PAFs top of the line fighters. Some of these items had been put on hold following the October 2005 earthquake in Pakistan & Kashmir, but the request for 36 new F-16 Block 50/52s is now going ahead, along with new weapons, engine modifications, and upgrade kits for Pakistans older F-16 A/Bs. The buy went through, and was accompanied by the supply of 26 older F-16s from USAF surplus stocks.
> 
> These items are detailed below, along with controversies the proposed sales have created, and some of the conditions attached to the sale by the US government
> 
> Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s  $3 billion
> Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s  $650 Million
> Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits  $1.3 billion
> Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR  $151 Million
> Deal Updates and Progress [updated]
> Potential Controversies (July 5, 2006)
> Additional Readings [updated]
> 
> Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s  $3 billion
> 
> 
> PAF F-16D Block 52
> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of up to 36 F-16C Block 50 and F-16D Block 52 two-seater aircraft  a buy of 18 jets, with an option for another 18. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $3 billion.
> 
> The planes will be equipped with the APG-68(V)9 radars, which are the most modern F-16 radar except for the UAEs F-16E/F Block 60 Desert Falcons and their AN/APG-80 AESA. The engine contract was less certain. Pakistans existing F-16s use the Pratt & Whitney F100 engine, the new planes involved a competition between Pratt & Whitneys F100-PW-229 or General Electrics F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs). Pratt & Whitney kept their customer, and supplied the new F-16s with their F100-PW-229 EEP variant.
> 
> The package for Pakistans new F-16s also includes:
> 
> 7 spare F100-PW-229 EEP or F110-GE-129 IPE engines (F100-PW-229 EEP selected)
> 7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets
> 36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
> 36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II
> 36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircrafts sides to give them extra range
> 36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; see tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems
> 36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems
> 36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
> 36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare (ALQ-211 AIDEW) Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (picked); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM
> 1 Unit Level Trainer
> Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability.
> The principal contractors under Pakistans Peace Drive buy will be:
> 
> Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, TX
> Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control, Dallas, TX
> BAE Advanced Systems Greenlawn, NY
> Boeing Corporation Seattle, WA
> Boeing Integrated Defense Systems: St Louis, MO; Long Beach, CA; San Diego, CA
> Raytheon Company: Lexington, MA; Goleta, CA
> Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, AZ
> Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX
> Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD
> United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT; or
> General Electric Aircraft Engines in Cincinnati, OH
> 
> There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support and program management of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF].
> 
> 
> Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s  $650 Million
> 
> To equip those new F-16s, the Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:
> 
> 500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)
> 12 AMRAAM training missiles  these have seeker warheads but lack engines
> 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X.
> 240 LAU-129/A Launchers  these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles.
> 500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits
> 1,600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 (500 lb.) and GBU-24s (2,000 lb.) with dual laser/GPS guidance
> 800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs
> 700 BLU-109 2,000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse
> Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability will also be provided.
> The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $650 million. The principal contractors will be:
> 
> BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY
> Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX
> Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX
> Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX
> Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD
> 
> There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF format].
> 
> 
> Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits  $1.3 billion
> 
> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:
> 
> APG-68v9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar, which is a much smaller improvement on earlier F-16s. The APG-68 with SAR is far better at air to ground work, and can be used to monitor ground activity.
> Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
> AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
> AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems
> Have Quick I/II Radios
> Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT)
> SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability
> Reconnaissance pod capability
> Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (used for training exercises)
> MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
> 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
> 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
> 1 Unit Level Trainer; and
> 10 APG-68v9 spare radar sets.
> Radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support.
> 
> JHMCSThe total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $1.3 billion.
> 
> According to the US DSCA, Pakistan intends to purchase the MLU Program equipment to enhance survivability, communications connectivity, and extend the useful life of its F-16A/B fighter aircraft. The modifications and upgrades in this proposed sale will permit Pakistans F-16A/B squadron to operate safely, and enhance Pakistans conventional deterrent capability. Pakistans air fleet can readily use these updates to enhance and extend the life of its aircraft.
> 
> The principal contractors will be:
> 
> BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY
> Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX
> Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX
> Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX
> Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD
> 
> Turkish Aerospace Industries isnt mentioned here, but they ended up with a contract to perform the upgrades on 41 F-16A/B aircraft. Theyve been doing similar work for Turkey, and for other F-16 customers in the middle east.
> 
> There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives. See DSCA release [PDF].
> 
> InsideDefense.com makes the interesting observation that Pakistan doesnt have 60 F-16s to upgrade. The clear implication is that the Pakistani government is interested in buying used F-16s and upgrading them, which proved to be the case. As part of the deal for new planes, in Sept 30/06 the USA also agreed to deliver 26 of the Peace Gate III/IV F-16A/B Block 15OCUs that had been ordered in 1988-1989, then embargoed when Pakistan tested nuclear weapons. After the embargo, the planes had been diverted for use as aggressor combat training aircraft by USAF and the US Navy.
> 
> 
> Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR  $151 Million
> 
> 
> F100 Engine TestThe third contract involves Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million.
> 
> More specifically, the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of:
> 
> 14 F100-PW-220E engines
> 14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits
> De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft
> Support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program.
> The principal contractors will be:
> 
> Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX
> United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT.
> 
> There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale, but implementation of the engine modifications and UP/STAR repairs will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF].
> 
> 
> Deal Updates and Progress
> 
> 
> PAF F-16A
> Feb 6/12: The PAF receives its 18th and final new F-16 Block 52, and its its first 2 Mid-Life Upgrade F-16s, at PAF Shahbaz airbase. The last new F-16 was an F-16D that had remained in the US for testing & trials. F-16.net.
> 
> July 30/11: J-10s. The PAF will be flying a squadron of Chinese J-10B fighters alongside its F-16s, as a gift from China. The official offer was reportedly presented to the Pakistan Armys Chief of General Staff, Lt. Gen. Waheed Arshad, during a week-long visit to Beijing.
> 
> The Chinese have also pledged 50 co-developed JF-17 Thunder fighters in recent months, but the J-10Bs are different because they offer total performance on par with, or even superior to, the PAFs new F-16C/D Block 52 fighter standard. Pakistan Kakhuda Hafiz | Economic Times of India | Defense Update | DefenseWorld.
> 
> July 29/11: Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co. in Fort Worth, TX receives a $42.3 million firm-fixed-price and cost-plus-fixed-fee contract for 10 additional Pakistan F-16 A/B Block 15 Aircraft Enhanced Modernization Program kits. TThe ASC/WWMK at Wright-Patterson AFB, OH manages the contract on behalf of its foreign Military Sale client (FA8615-07-C-6032, PO 0038).
> 
> July 26/11: Fragile alliance. At the US House Foreign Affairs Committees hearings on Reassessing American Grand Strategy in South Asia, John J. Tkacik, the U.S. Department of State Bureau of Intelligence and Researchs Former Chief of China Analysis, submits The Enemy of Hegemony is My Friend: Pakistans de facto Alliance with China [PDF]. Key excerpt:
> 
> China has always been Pakistans most important strategic ally,2 and the intensity of Pakistans relationship with the United States has always been a subset of Pakistans all-consuming strategic calculus about India. For the United States to achieve a true strategic partnership with Pakistan, it must share Pakistans posture toward India. It follows, then, that subduing India also demands acquiescing in Chinas ultimate hegemony in Asia. In reassessing Americas grand strategy in South Asia, the United States must first reassess its global grand strategy. If America can live with an Asia under Chinese hegemony, and with a crippled India, then America can have Pakistans enthusiastic partnership against the Taliban. Decisions like this are, as they say, above my pay grade.
> 
> July 22/11: L-3 Communications Link Simulation and Training division in Arlington, TX receives a $20.6 million firm-fixed-price contract for 1 aircrew training system (ATS) to support Pakistan air force F-16 pilot training. Work will be performed at Arlington, Texas, overseen by ASC/WNSK at Wright-Patterson AFB, OH, on behalf of their Pakistani FMS client. Both simulators, scheduled for delivery in 2013, will be installed and networked at the PAFs Shahbaz Air Base.
> 
> The ATS consists of 2 upgraded F-16 ATS devices with an 18 panel simusphere for 360 degree viewing: a new F-16A Block 15/52 ATS; and a less flexible new F-16C Block 52 ATS. The contract also includes 21 months contractor logistics support (12 months on-site and 9 months on-call); common ATS Block 15 and Block 52 software load; high fidelity cockpit; 360 horizontal X250; version MMC 7000 hardware and software; geo-specific database of Pakistan with high resolution features; full simulation of the APG-68v9 radar with digital radar land mass simulation; full weapons simulation incl. Maverick missile, targeting pod, JHMCS helmet mounted sights; threat environment A-G and spot jamming simulation; emergency procedures and malfunctions simulation; and an instructor-operator station to make pilots lives difficult in pre-planned ways. Fort Worth Star-Telegram | Pakistans The Nation.
> 
> July 20/11: Georgia Tech Applied Research Corp. in Atlanta, GA receiveds a $9.2 million cost-plus-fixed-fee Foreign Military Sales contract to integrate ITTs AN/ALQ-211v9 AIDEW pod and software into Pakistans existing AN/ALQ-213 [PDF] countermeasures set from Terma. The ALQ-213 CMS electronic warfare suite provides centralized control/resources management of the F-16s defensive suites, so the pod and CMS controller need to work together.
> 
> Work will be performed in Atlanta, GA, and is expected to be complete by July 2014. The ESG/PKS DTIC at Offutt AFB, NB, manages the contract on behalf of its FMS client (HC1047-05-D-4000).
> 
> July 19/11: The US GAO releases report #GAO-11-786R: Pakistan Assistance: Relatively Little of the $3 Billion in Requested Assistance is Subject to States Certification of Pakistans Progress on Nonproliferation and Counterterrorism Issues.
> 
> July 9/11: After the USA finds and kills Osama Bin Laden, Pakistans intelligence agency murders a journalist and expels American military trainers. In response, the USA delays and may cancel about $800 million in military aid and equipment, or about 40% of its annual total.
> 
> US officials say that the F-16s are unaffected. Instead, the blockage involves about $300 million to reimburse Pakistan for some of the costs of deploying more than 100,000 soldiers along the Afghan border, hundreds of millions of dollars in training assistance and military hardware like rifles, ammunition, body armor and bomb-disposal gear that were part of the expelled training effort, and items like radios, night-vision goggles and helicopter spare parts, where Pakistan has denied visas to the American personnel needed to operate the equipment. Less double-dealing with terrorists would reportedly free up this aid, but Pakistans response is that theyll rely on China to make up the gap. ABC News | CBS News | NY Times.
> 
> July 5/11: ITT Systems Corp. in Clifton, NJ receives a not to exceed $49.1 million firm-fixed-price contract for the ALQ-211v9 AIDEW Pod, which was picked as the electronic countermeasures choice for Pakistans new F-16C/D Block 52s, and is also on the list for its upgraded F-16s. This award fits the new fighter order, and includes 18 pods, 4 pod shells, 2 antenna coupler sets, 2 lab test benches, associated data, and systems software and support equipment.
> 
> Work will be performed at Clifton, N.J. This contract is a Foreign Military Sales requirement for Pakistan, managed by the WR-ALC/GRWKBat Robins Air Force Base, GA (FA8540-11-C-0012). See also June 26/08 entry.
> May 1/11: Osama Bin Laden is killed in a US Navy SEAL raid, which happens without notifying Pakistan. As a result, Osama is actually present in Abbotabad when the SEALs arrive, living comfortably about a mile from Pakistans top military college.
> 
> March 1/11: Aviation Week reports that Pakistan is in negotiations with the U.S. to get more Lockheed Martin F-16s over and above the 63 currently in service (18 F-16C/D Block 52, 45 F-16A/B Blocck 15/OCU that will be upgraded). No numbers have been specified, by Pakistani officials see it as part of a dual-track strategy that will also include more spending on domestic projects like the JF-17 Thunder, to improve Pakistans own manufacturing capacity.
> 
> At present, PAF Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleman says that 4 F-16A/Bs went to the USA for technical verification inspections and upgrade kit development, and the 1st 3 F-16A/Bs are now undergoing the upgrade at Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). All of Pakistans F-16s are expected to be upgraded by 2013-2014. At present, no systems exist that would bridge the F-16 and JF-17 fleets, but Air Chief Marshall Suleman says that Pakistan intends to eventually field a supplementary datalink, which would work alongside the Link 16 systems carried by the F-16s.
> 
> The comments come as the Pakistani military is also discussing a deal to buy Chinese submarines as a supplement to their French Agosta-class boats, as an intended prelude to joint submarine development. These plans are all being made against a backdrop of a serious domestic insurgency and widespread flooding damage, which have combined to create over 1 million internal refugees, and threaten the governments medium term ability to maintain control of the country. Even as the state is very obviously fraying in other ways.
> 
> Jan 20/11: Goodrich Corporation of Chelmsford, MA receives a $71.9 million contract for 5 DB-110 Pods, 2 datalink upgrades to existing pods, 2 fixed ground stations, 1 mobile ground station, and 4 ground station datalink receiver kits, plus initial spares, technical manuals, minimal initial engineering support for final in-country installation, integration, testing and a study for a potential fusion center. This supports Pakistani F-16 aircraft. At this time, $17.3 million has been committed by the ASC/WINK at Wright-Patterson Air Force, OH on behalf of their Foreign Military Sale client (FA8620-11-C-3006).
> 
> The DB-110 reconnaissance pod offers day and night capabilities, and has been ordered by a number of F-16 customers, including Egypt, Greece, Morocco, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, and the UAE. DB-110s were not mentioned in the DSCA upgrade requests, but they are clearly part of that effort now. Reports indicate that installations began in June 2010; this is apparently a follow-on order. A Jan 12/11 US FedBizOpps solicitation for associated imagery analysis training is a useful reminder that buying the pods is not enough to field a useful capability. See also Aviation Week re: DB-110.
> 
> Dec 13/10: The last batch of 6 F-16 Block 52s arrive a bit early at Shahbaz AB, after a stop over at Lajes Field, Azores. This finishes the 18-plane order. F-16.NET.
> 
> Nov 20/10: Another 6 new F-16 Block 52s land at the Shahbaz airbase near Jacobabad, in Pakistans Sindh province. That makes 12 so far, and another batch of 6 F-16 C/D Block 52s are expected to arrive in December 2010, to finish the initial 18-plane order. Pakistans DAWN | Associated Press of Pakistan | Daily Times | The Nation | Pak Tribune | IANS.
> 
> Oct 30/10: Another 3 new F-16 Block 52 aircraft are handed over at an induction ceremony at Shahbaz Air Base near Jacobabad, Pakistan. This is the 2nd batch of new F-16s delivered, and all 18 fighter aircraft are expected to arrive by January 2012.
> 
> In addition to the delivery of these new aircraft, the U.S. is working with the PAF to update 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the U.S. Foreign Military Financing security assistance program. The first batch of updated F-16s is scheduled to arrive in Pakistan in early 2012. US CENTCOM.
> 
> July 27/10: The Press Trust of India reports that the first AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles have arrived in Pakistan, and will equip the new F-16C/D block 52s. PTI.
> 
> June 24/10: The Pentagon announces that it will deliver the first 3 new F-16 Block 52s in Pakistan on June 26/10, with the other 15 arriving during 2010-2011. USAF Maj. Todd Robbins, the the office of the undersecretary of the Air Force for international affairs Pakistan country director, is quoted saying that Pakistan is paying $1.4 billion for the 18 new F-16 Block 52s. Theyre also paying $1.3 billion for upgrades to its existing F-16 fleet, which are to begin delivery in 2012.
> 
> The new F-16s will add night, all-weather, and precision-attack capabilities, and Pakistani pilots have been training at Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson, including night-attack training. The PAF recently completed training for 4 instructors and 5 flight leads (q.v. May 5/10 entry). The US Embassy in Islamabad later cited June 27/10 as the day of the formal induction ceremony.
> 
> Beyond the F-16s, the USA has provided over $4 billion in assistance over the last 3 years. The USA and Pakistan are working to address the current deficit of trust, which has begun to repair itself since Pakistans government became more serious about fighting al-Qaeda and the Taliban in Pakistan. In March 2010, the United States and Pakistan held their first ministerial-level strategic dialogue in Washington, DC, co-chaired by US Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and Pakistani Foreign Minister Makhdoom Shah Mahmood Qureshi. High-level officials from both governments participated in the dialogue, including Secretary of Defense Gates and Navy Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Follow-up meetings took place in Pakistan in early June 2010.
> 
> June 14/10: A report in Indias Samay Live says that Pakistan will face strict monitoring of its new F-16s, and quotes United States Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asia, Robert Blake. Samay Live states that:
> 
> Sources said the US Air Force personnel will arrive during the delivery of the F-16s and supervise not only the air base where they will be deployed but also the operations carried out by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) against the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Though the jets will be flown by PAF pilots, the logistics, management and control of the F-16s will be with the US personnel. The [18] Block 50/52 model F-16 jets equipped with latest missiles will arrive at the Shahbaz Airbase in Jacoabad in the last week of June
> 
> Readers are cautioned that this description may be an overstatement or misunderstanding of normal support and inspection provisions; without a firm statement from an identifiable individual, its hard to tell.
> 
> May 21/10: Lockheed Aeronautics in Fort Worth, TX receives a $325.5 million contract to develop, integrate and deliver 53 F-16 upgrade kits: 35 mid-life upgrade kits for Pakistani F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft, and 18 retrofit kits for Pakistani F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft.
> 
> At this time, $121.2 million has been committed by the 312th AESG/SYK at Wright-Patterson AFB, OH, who manages these efforts on Pakistans behalf (FA8615-07-C-6032).
> 
> May 4/10: Eight Pakistani F-16 A/B pilots graduate from training at Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ, flying US Air National Guard F-16 C/D Block 25s. They are the first Pakistani pilots to train in the United States since 1983. Their training involves 2 1/2 months reviewing military aviation terminology at the Defense Language Institute at Lackland Air Force Base, TX; 7 months of flight training at Tucson International Airport, including a transition course, flight lead upgrade training, and instructor pilot certification; and 2 weeks of additional F-16 Block 52 instruction. The schedule was compressed, and the pilots flew 5 flights per week, instead of the usual 3.
> 
> Pakistani air force Wing Commander Ghazanfar Latif cited to the ability to run precision engagements and attack at night as key difference from the F-16 hes been flying for the last 12 years, capabilities that can lower collateral damage. The flip side was cited by Squadron Leader Yasir Malik: the need to manage and prioritize all that additional information from the radar, datalinks, and other sensors, which was a key part of their training. Their instructors in this effort included USAF flight commander Maj. Windy Hendrick, and her compatriots in the 162nd Fighter Wing. USAF.
> 
> Nov 16/09: Pratt & Whitney announces that they have delivered the first F100-PW-229 Engine Enhancement Package (EEP) engine to Pakistan, for installation in their F-16 Block 52 aircraft. The engine program is valued at approximately $150 million, and is scheduled for delivery in 2009 and 2010.
> 
> The F100-PW-229 EEP is the latest evolution of the F100 engine family, with features designed to reduce scheduled engine maintenance by up to 30%, by extending the depot inspection interval from 4300  6000 TACs.
> 
> Oct 13/09: Lockheed Martin unveils the first of 18 new PAF F-16s in ceremonies at its Fort Worth, TX facility. Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Chief of Staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Quamar Suleman accepted the F-16D Block 52 aircraft on behalf of his nation, as the first delivery of the Peace Drive I order. It will be delivered to the US government for transfer in December 2009, with the remainder of the order following in 2010. See also Flight International, which has video.
> 
> July 29/08: Pakistans request to transfer 2/3 of its anti-terrorism aid to fund its F-16 program meets strong resistance from the US Congress.
> 
> June 28/08: In a ceremony at Mushaf Air Base in Pakistan, Acting Commander of US Central Command, Lt. Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, hands over 4 excess defense article F-16 fighter from the USAF to Pakistan Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed. The US DSCA release says that:
> 
> F-16s continue to hold a special place in the U.S.  *****stani security relationship. The four EDA aircraft are part of a larger package of 14 aircraft. With the most recent delivery, the USAF has transferred eight aircraft to Pakistan. Another four EDA F-16 aircraft are scheduled to arrive in Pakistan on 28 July 2008. The final two aircraft are part of the Pakistan Mid-Life Update program and will arrive in Pakistan in De*cember 2011. The entire F-16 program for Pakistan includes the purchase of eighteen F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft, MLU for 46 aircraft, and a munitions package that includes AM*RAAM, JDAM, and Enhanced Paveway guidance kits.
> 
> June 26/08: The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency announces [PDF format] Pakistans official request for 21 AN/ALQ-211v9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) Pods, plus software support, repair and return, spare and repair parts, support equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related elements of program support. The estimated cost is $75 million.
> 
> Pakistan intends to purchase the AIDEWS pods to enhance its existing F-16 fighter aircraft, and create fleet commonality with its new F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft. See also our March 19/08 entry; the original DSCA bulletin for mid-life upgrades had mentioned AN/ ALQ-131 or AN/ALQ-148 pods instead.
> 
> The principal contractor will be ITT Corporation of Clifton, NJ. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and ITT representatives for technical reviews, support, and program management over a period of up to 15 years.
> 
> June 4/08: The Associated Press of Pakistan reports that Pakistan has already received 2 refurbished F-16s, and is due to receive 4 more in June and another 4 in July, bringing the total to 10.
> 
> April 18/08: Lockheed Martin Aeronautics of Fort Worth, TX received a modified contract for $31.5 million, covering one-time engineering activity for aircraft production program changes for the Peace Drive I (Pakistan) program for foreign military sales F-16 Block 52M aircraft. At this time $15.75 million has been obligated. Wright-Patterson AFB, OH issued the contract (FA8615-07-C-6031, P00005).
> 
> April 18/08: Lockheed Martin Aeronautics of Fort Worth, TX received a modified firm fixed price contract for $27 million, covering one-time engineering activity for developmental support equipment and country standard technical order for the Peace Drive I (Pakistan) Program for foreign military sales F-16 Block 52M aircraft. At this time $13.5 million has been obligated. Wright-Patterson AFB, OH issued the contract (FA8615-07-C-6031, P00004).
> 
> March 19/08: ITT Avionics of Clifton, NJ received a modified firm fixed price contract for $78.2 million for Foreign Military Sales of the ALQ-211v4 Advanced Integrated Defense Electronics Warfare system to the country of Pakistan, for use on the F-16 aircraft being procured under separate acquisition by the F-16 program office. The contract also includes associated spares, support equipment, training, engineering services, and flight test support and data, and $39 million has been obligated so far. Robins AFB, GA issued the contracts (FA8523-07-C-0008-PZ0001).
> 
> The DefenseLINK announcement was wrong in several respects. It has been corrected above, and Robins AFBs PA office offers further background, which connects it to the overlapping March 30/07 announcement:
> 
> Contract FA8523-07-C-0008 was awarded in March 2007 to ITT in Clifton NJ. The obligated funds on the initial contract was $39 mil. The contract was modified in March 2008 to add the additional funds Of $39.2 mil and to definitize all outstanding contract requirements. This was not a new award, the contract was awarded in March 2007.
> 
> Dec 31/07: Lockheed Martin Aeronautics of Fort Worth, TX received a firm-fixed-price contract modification for $498.2 million, covering Foreign Military Sales of 12 new F-16C Block 52 and 6 new 2-seat F-16D Block 52 new aircraft to Pakistan. At this time, $497.6 million has been obligated. Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, OH issued the contract (FA8615-07-C-6031-P0002).
> 
> Dec 14/07: Raytheon Missile Systems of Tucson, AZ received a firm fixed price contract for $161.3 million. This action provides 300 miscellaneous unit air foil groups, 300 miscellaneous armament unit enhanced computer control groups, 1,298 weapon guidance unit computer control groups, 1,300 stabilizing and retarding unit air foil groups, 600 global positioning system adapter kits, 1 lot enhanced Paveway III and test equipment spares, 1 lot enhanced Paveway II, 700 certain adapter groups, 6 readiness test set, 6 bomb tool kits, 3 lots of enhanced Paveway tool sets, 3 each common munitions bit/reprogramming equipment adapter kits, 1 each mission planning software, 1 lot DATA. This effort supports foreign military sales to Pakistan. At this time $75.7 million has been obligated. The 784th Combat Sustainment Group (AFMC) at Hill Air Force Base, UT issued the contract (FA8213-08-C-0028).
> 
> Enhanced Paveways use a combination of laser and GPS/INS guidance. The laser designator offers better accuracy, and is compatible with targeting pods like Pakistans forthcoming Sniper ATPs. GPS/INS benefits include the ability to function through fog, dust storms, clouds, smoke, or other obscurants, and can be employed in the absence of a laser designator as long as Global Positioning System coordinates are available for the target.
> 
> April 27/07: Pakistan orders 22 of Lockheed Martins AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods under a $54.6 million firm-fixed-price contract. Since Raytheons ATFLIR is only integrated with F/A-18s, and Northrop Grummans LITENING AT is a joint development with Israels RAFAEL, the choice is not surprising. Sniper pods have also been referred to as PANTERA pods in the past. See Pakistan Joins List of Sniper ATP Customers for more.
> 
> March 30/07: ITT Avionics in Clifton, NJ received a $78 million firm-fixed-price and time and materials contract for Foreign Military Sales of the AN/ALQ-173 (V) advanced integrated defense electronics warfare to the country of Pakistan. Associated spares, support equipment, training, engineering services, flight test support and data are also being acquired. Solicitations began February 2007, negotiations were complete March 2007, and work will be complete January 2010. The Headquarters Warner Robins Air Logistics Center at Robins Air Force Base, GA issued the contract (FA8523-07-C-0008).
> 
> Oddly enough, the AN/ALQ-173 was not among the many internal ECM alternatives listed in the official US DSCA announcement.
> 
> Dec 5/06: Lockheed Martin Corp. in Fort Worth, TX received a $144 million firm-fixed-price and time and materials contract for 12 operational single place F-16C Block 52 aircraft and 6 operational two place F-16D Block 52+ aircraft. This will begin readying materials to manufacture the aircraft, and $78.4 million has been obligated at this time. Aircraft purchases will be accomplished under the firm-fixed price portion of the contract, and work will be complete by November 2010. The Headquarters Aeronautical Systems Center at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, OH issued the contract (FA8615-07-C-6031).
> 
> Nov 17/06: Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, AZ received a $269.6 million firm-fixed-price contract modification, exercising an option to purchase 500 AIM-120C5 AMRAAM missiles and rehost on behalf of Pakistan (100%). Work will be complete April 2011. The Headquarters Medium Range Missile System Group at Eglin Air Force Base, FL issued the contract (FA8675-05-C-0070/P00028).
> 
> Nov 15/06: Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems in Linthicum Heights, MD received half of a $99.5 million firm-fixed-price contract for government furnished property for the Government of Pakistan under the F-16 Block 50/52 new aircraft and modernization program. The procurement of 54 AN/APG-68 (V)9 Radar Systems will be accomplished under the firm-fixed-price portion of the contract. A January 10, 2007 Northrop Grumman release clarifies: this order is for 52 systems (18 new + 34 upgrade kits), with a 44 radar option to follow (18 new + 26 upgrade kits).
> 
> Oct 2/06: India Defence reports that Pakistan and USA have signed a letter of acceptance for these deals, following a Sept 30/06 ceremony in Rawalpindi were Pakistans military is headquartered. It said that the United States will supply 18 new F-16 aircraft, as well as an unspecified number of upgraded second-hand F-16s. Previous reports have said the number of second hand aircraft Pakistan was considering buying was 36, which would make for 18 of each.
> 
> India Defence adds that Both sides had expected to wrap up the deal a month earlier, but negotiations dragged on because of strings Washington wanted attached. The USA has clear concerns regarding technology transfer from the F-16s or associated weapons it sells to 3rd countries like China, which has close military ties with Pakistan.While the US was reluctant to discuss details, Assistant Secretary of State for political-military affairs John Hillen was more open with Congress on July 20/06.
> 
> In his testimony to the House of Representatives International Relations Committee, Hillen reportedly said that the United States was withholding unspecified technologies that would usually go with an F-16, including ones that would let it be used in offensive ways to penetrate air space of another country that was highly defended. It added that Pakistans F-16 fleet and its munitions would be segregated from aircraft supplied by other countries, so that unauthorized engineers could not get access to the U.S.-made planes, and that U.S. personnel would carry out inventories of the F-16s and their associated systems every 6 months. There had even been a proposal that F-16 flights outside Pakistani air space, including for exercises with other countries, would have to be approved by the U.S. government in advance. It is not clear whether this requirement ever got beyond the proposal stage.
> 
> As part of the deal, the USA also agreed to deliver 26 of the Peace Gate III/IV F-16A/B Block 15OCUs that had been ordered in 1988-1989, then embargoed when Pakistan tested nuclear weapons. The planes had been diverted for use as aggressor combat training aircraft by USAF and the US Navy. Source.
> 
> July 20/06: Heres the first concerned speech from an opposed Congressman: Eliot Engel [D-NY], citing Pakistans support for terrorism in India. Mr Engel is a senior member of the House International Relations Committee, and was one of the first Members of Congress to come out in favour of the proposed India-US nuclear energy deal. Hell be making his views public at the July 20, 2006 House International Relations Committee hearing on the Pakistan sales  and that meeting will tell us if opposition to the deal has real traction.
> 
> Potential Controversies: July 2006
> 
> 
> ISAF, S. Afghanistan
> (click to view full)The DSCA has said that Release of this system would not significantly reduce Indias quantitative or qualitative military advantage. India disagrees, and military experts in Delhi will likely note that the same equipment (GPS, targeting pods, bunker-busters) that could potentially find uses against al-Qaeda terrorists in Pakistans lawless frontier could also be used in precision strikes on Indias military facilities in the event of war.
> 
> The DSCA counters that release of the F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft to Pakistan will neither affect the regional balance of power nor introduce a new technology as this level of capability or higher already exists in other countries in the region. India does operate more advanced SU-30MKI aircraft with R-77 AMRAAMski missiles, advanced avionics, et. al.; these are superior in range, armament, and maneuverability to Pakistans F-16s, and will remain so. Meanwhile, Indias $7-10 billion MRCA competition is certain to introduce 125-200 aircraft that are certain to be more advanced than the F-16 Block 50/52.
> 
> The US DSCA adds in its submission to Congress that The modification of the engines and Falcon UP/STAR structural updates will provide capable F-16s that can be used for close air support in ongoing operations contributing to the GWOT (Global War On Terror). The DSCA also cites the June 2004 designation of Pakistan as a Major Non-North Atlantic Treaty Organization Ally in its submission. The British commander of NATOs ISAF force in Southern Afghanistan sees Pakistans role in a rather different light, however; he recently noted that al-Qaeda in Afghanistan is still run out of Pakistan (specifically Quetta), with Pakistani knowledge and even support from Islamist elements in its security apparatus. Ah, the dynamics of counter-insurgency in tribal societies. Pakistan angrily denies this, of course.
> 
> Indias objections to this sale have been muted thus far, and phrased carefully to emphasize their effect on India-Pakistan ties rather than India-US ties. Meanwhile, President Bushs personal diplomacy approach has fostered a strong relationship with Gen. Musharraf that is inclined to view such requests favorably as part of the USAs 3-corner balancing act in the region. Barring unusual circumstances, therefore, its reasonable to expect this sale to go through with little more than a concerned speech or two in Congress.
> 
> December 2007 Update:
> 
> The sale did go through with little more than concerned speeches in Congress, though there have been ongoing efforts to pressure the Pakistani government via threats of delayed or canceled weapon sales, due in large part to the security situation across the de facto line of government/ al-Qaeda control in western Pakistan.
> 
> The Benazir Bhutto assassination, and the strong likelihood that the Bhuttos PPP party will ascend to power following the coming Pakistani election, is also likely to remove some of the pressure the US Congress has been placing on Pakistan. In the short term, a delay in the elections could result in symbolic weapons sales delays until elections are held, while construction of the F-16s et. al. continues for delivery after that date anyway. Once those elections are held, a combination of sympathy and diplomatic imperatives are likely to mute further resistance to weapons sales in the US Congress.
> 
> It remains less clear whether Asif Ali Zardari Mr. 10% Bhuttos ascension to power will successfully address that countrys ongoing civil war  and what that will mean in a year or two, when the jets are due to be delivered.
> 
> 
> Additional Readings
> 
> Pakistan Air Force. Official web site.
> Wikipedia  Pakistan Air Force. Very good reference.
> Absolute Astronomy  F-16 Fighting Falcon. The best source for distinguishing the F-16s wide array of variants, and what that means for the aircrafts capabilities.
> F-16.NET  Pakistan Fizaya/ Pakistan Air Force  PAF
> DID  Pakistan & Chinas JF-17 Fighter Program. The F-16s counterpart in the future PAF, which will also include the more advanced Chinese J-10B/JF-20.
> DID  US GAO Criticizes [US] CSF Aid to Pakistan
> US House Committee on Foreign Affairs, Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee (July 26/11)  The Enemy of Hegemony is My Friend: Pakistans de facto Alliance with China [PDF]. By China Business Intelligence President John J. Tkacik, at hearings on Reassessing American Grand Strategy in South Asia. See also HTML version.
> GAO (July 19/11, #GAO-11-786R)  Pakistan Assistance: Relatively Little of the $3 Billion in Requested Assistance is Subject to States Certification of Pakistans Progress on Nonproliferation and Counterterrorism Issues
> Real Clear World (June 20/11)  Why the U.S. Still Needs Pakistan. By STRATFOR CEO George Friedman.
> Tags: pakistanf-16, pakf-16
> 
> 
> _all you ever wanted to know about the F-16 deal!_


 
Yea....but is still doesn't mention if PAF will get the other 18 BLK 52s from the 36 (3 billion $) F-16 contract......and if the remaining 12 F-16s OCUs will be released.....


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## TOPGUN

First of thankyou Fatman sir for the best info on PAF vipers ever.. second so per what i read on Fatman's PAF viper history it clearly states that 36 blk 52's that means we are still going for 18 more? or wating to see if 14 older vipers will be cleared for us ?


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## BATMAN

Deno said:


> TAI modernized PAFs F-16 A/B's avonics and software to C/D 50+ level. We have C/D 50+ modernized photos from Egypt and Turkish airforces but this is the first A/B of TAI. We don't know if upgrade deal had include engines/fueltanks...
> 
> if it did, here what it will be look like



Is it correct that a spine will be added to the B's?


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## araz

BATMAN said:


> Is it correct that a spine will be added to the B's?


Engine remains the same. No spine will be added as far as I know.
Araz

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## razgriz19

Deno said:


> That is what I said praticly.  block-52's engine is stronger than block 50's engine.



but both engines produce same amount of thrust, both are in 29,000 lb class.


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## BATMAN

araz said:


> Engine remains the same. No spine will be added as far as I know.
> Araz



As far i remember, new engines were in the procurement list.


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## Donatello

Deno said:


> TAI modernized PAFs F-16 A/B's avonics and software to C/D 50+ level. We have C/D 50+ modernized photos from Egypt and Turkish airforces but this is the first A/B of TAI. We don't know if upgrade deal had include engines/fueltanks...
> 
> if it did, here what it will be look like




Hi Deno,


Thanks for your post.

But the F-16 in your picture (Number 07-1015) is the D version BLK 50 F-16 of Turkish Airforce, delivered in the last batch of 2011-2012.
It shows the dorsal spine and the CFTs.


The PAF's F-16 undergoing MLUs cannot have an added spine and CFT like in the picture above.

Only the D version, BLK 52+(s) will have this spine.

Thanks.


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## nomi007

now a day Greece is facing economical crisis
we talk to them for f-16s purchase
2nd Venezuela also retiring its block-15 f-16s (21)
we try to get them and modernize them 
Venezuela's f-16s


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## untitled

nomi007 said:


> now a day Greece is facing economical crisis



Just because they are in economic trouble does not mean they will sell their jets. They too have a India of their own (Turkey)


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## SQ8

nomi007 said:


> Venezuela's f-16s



In extremely bad shape.. worn out.

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## untitled

Oscar said:


> In extremely bad shape.. worn out.



But can be bought for spares/cannibalization


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## Najam Khan

Oscar said:


> Najam Khan said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Newer cockpit displays and advancement in NVG tech have eliminated the problem of lighting that existed with earlier NVG systems.* There has been a trial of NVG's with our Mirage-V fleet and the reports were encouraging.. although they used ones meant for helicopter crews.
> The A-10 pilots use it regardless of the Lantrin system being there or not..
> In our case, they can be effective tools for night time strikes(after all..the line being paraded here to the US is that these upgrades are for the WoT)
> They are however.. not meant to be used for A2A engagements.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the post, I have studied that in detail. Following are some main points.
> 
> 1.	For night-ops with NVGS it would be much effective if aircraft has a terrain following system. It is included in MLU under the name of Digital Terrain System (DTS).
> 
> 2.	If NVGs are used then adjusting cockpit lights would be mandatory to reduce the reflections inside the cockpit.
> 
> 3.	Sender/receiver sensor is located near the HUD and NVG, which turns HUD off when pilot is looking in its field of view. Pilot can also adjust it to remain ON when he/she is looking at the HUD.
> 
> 4.	In case of F-16, availability of any FLIR pod would enhance the pilot skills. Just like LANTRIN, Sniper ATP also has FLIR mode which will work in our case. LANTRIN gives FLIR information which is present on HUD and Terrain Following Radar(TFR) enhancing pilots skills at low level.
> 
> 5.	Lastly for ground attack: low altitude and high speed are required, latter is never recommended in poor visibility.
> 
> In ROSE-III Mirages, combination of NVGs and FLIR worked perfectly as FLIR provides thermal imaging. As you said, these tests were very productive.
> But there are few shortcomings of NVGs too. An important one is that heavy helmet on the head is itself a constraint especially during high-G maneuveringat 5G the helmet will weight 5 times more than the normal. Similarly FLIR has limitations in sea/rain because of the amount of water vapours in the air.
> 
> Finally since HUD isnt illuminated as it is in Bk40 and NVGs has its limitations on high-G maneuvering, I agree that an A2A usage is not possible in normal conditions.
Click to expand...

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## araz

BATMAN said:


> As far i remember, new engines were in the procurement list.


As far as I know there is no plans for installing a higher thrust engine ala Bl 52. This would require further research and analysis and cost would be prohibitive. An example in mind is the Taiwanese MLU which would cost about 8 times more. I dont know whether iut is worth spending that much on what are essentially 30 yrs old frames. 
Araz


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## Peaceful Civilian

I love these birds specially F16. We bought it, paid it, Then again paid it for upgrades, so honestly it should be our property.
But if we want to sale it, could we do it??. Any agreement with USA which prohibits the sale of F16 to any other country?? 
I am *not* in favor of sale but just for knowledge if we want to sale it in future??
In this case do we need USA permission?


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## VelocuR

Peaceful Civlian said:


> I love these birds specially F16. We bought it, paid it, Then again paid it for upgrades, so honestly it should be our property.
> But if we want to sale it, could we do it??. Any agreement with USA which prohibits the sale of F16 to any other country??
> I am *not* in favor of sale but just for knowledge if we want to sale it in future??
> In this case do we need USA permission?



By the contract agreements with US, you can't sell F-16s. Pakistan can't sell it. These F-16s have a chip inside to record activity movement. 

Yes, Pakistan seek permission from US because F-16 is made in USA. Other countries sold old aging F-16s after US approved it.


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## Edevelop

RaptorRX707 said:


> By the contract agreements with US, you can't sell F-16s. Pakistan can't sell it. *These F-16s have a chip inside to record activity movement. *
> 
> Yes, Pakistan seek permission from US because F-16 is made in USA. Other countries sold old aging F-16s after US approved it.



Can't we remove that chip?


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## CallsignAlzaeem

PAF MLU at Lajes.

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## Donatello

cb4 said:


> Can't we remove that chip?



No.....otherwise we would have done so.


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## Peaceful Civilian

RaptorRX707 said:


> By the contract agreements with US, you can't sell F-16s. Pakistan can't sell it. These F-16s have a chip inside to record activity movement.
> 
> Yes, Pakistan seek permission from US because F-16 is made in USA. Other countries sold old aging F-16s after US approved it.



I am wondering How this chip records 24 hours daily activity. I think this is just a illusion created by the U.S to prohibit his customers for modifications.
Even if this is true, Then i think USA can keep upgrade himself the location of any F16 aircraft and their petrol activities.

Same case with Russian jets in India by Russians.


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## VelocuR

cb4 said:


> Can't we remove that chip?



It can't. If we try to remove chip, it will alarm US department signals via satellites. And I heard, if one chip take off, whole avionics systems will be damaged. There is no choice.  

Pakistanis happy of Block 50 and MLUs--whoooo.... 



Peaceful Civlian said:


> I am wondering How this chip records 24 hours daily activity. I think this is just a illusion created by the U.S to prohibit his customers for modifications.
> Even if this is true, Then i think USA can keep upgrade himself the location of any F16 aircraft and their petrol activities.
> 
> Same case with Russian jets in India by Russians.



You know, you put GPS in your car, the satellites can see your car movements where it go. The invisible advanced chip virus inside F-16 MLU and Block 50, US military know what you doing in real eyes and will shoot down easily if PAF dare to cross the line. 

It is better to develop own avionics system by Pakistan itself.....long way to go.

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## Peaceful Civilian

RaptorRX707 said:


> It can't. If we try to remove chip, it will alarm US department signals via satellites. And I heard, if one chip take off, whole avionics systems will be damaged. There is no choice.
> 
> Pakistanis happy of Block 50 and MLUs--whoooo....
> 
> 
> 
> You know, you put GPS in your car, the satellites can see your car movements where it go. The invisible advanced chip virus inside F-16 MLU and Block 50, US military know what you doing in real eyes and will shoot down easily if PAF dare to cross the line.
> 
> It is better to develop own avionics system by Pakistan itself.....long way to go.



You need drivers to run these avionics and chips which is Programming language. Pakistan is very expertise in this field, and you know our programmers used C++ language in JF17 with millions of codes and instructions. There are many programmers in Pakistan.. Yes Pakistan need expertise in hardware field specially with avionics system hardware components.


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## ziaulislam

its a simple GPS device,usually every military aircraft has it. May be (i am not sure) US has access to it to record the aircraft movements and may be this is just another rumor like the kill switch ones


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## nomi007

are more f-16s coming from usa?


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## Donatello

Peaceful Civlian said:


> *You need drivers to run these avionics and chips which is Programming language. Pakistan is very expertise in this field, and you know our programmers used C++ language in JF17 with millions of codes and instructions. * There are many programmers in Pakistan.. Yes Pakistan need expertise in hardware field specially with avionics system hardware components.



Sorry to burst your bubble, but this is not a pirated copy of Windows that we are trying to crack here.

This is top level military stuff and reading and decoding it is nothing but difficult.


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## DANGER-ZONE

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> PAF MLU at Lajes.



Damn ... what the hell is this... Same old Wing tip rail ????? 
This rail also changes in MLU. What is this man ? 
i was keeping an eye on it since every new picture posted of MLU bird. then i thought that i could be wrong. but this one is giving a clear view. 
Some one Shed some light plz.


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## soul hacker

I CANT BELIEVE IT 
BREAKING NEWS :- PAKISTAN KO 14 PURANE AUR NAI(NEW) 18 TAYARE AMERICA SE MIL GAYE 
NEWS FLASHING ON EXPRESS NEWS

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## killerx

RaptorRX707 said:


> By the contract agreements with US, you can't sell F-16s. Pakistan can't sell it. These F-16s have a chip inside to record activity movement.
> 
> Yes, Pakistan seek permission from US because F-16 is made in USA. Other countries sold old aging F-16s after US approved it.



you mean us can track our f16 what a relife so can tell indian even before we take off our pilots how can they fly in this junk


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## killerx

need to replace F16 with J10 and JF17 soon


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## Raftar

soul hacker said:


> I CANT BELIEVE IT
> BREAKING NEWS :- PAKISTAN KO 14 PURANE AUR NAI(NEW) 18 TAYARE AMERICA SE MIL GAYE
> NEWS FLASHING ON EXPRESS NEWS




*KITHO LAB GAYEEEEEE???????????*


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## farhan_9909

soul hacker said:


> I CANT BELIEVE IT
> BREAKING NEWS :- PAKISTAN KO 14 PURANE AUR NAI(NEW) 18 TAYARE AMERICA SE MIL GAYE
> NEWS FLASHING ON EXPRESS NEWS



Got them or will receive them?'


yaar this is a clear fact US agreed to supply 14 surplus old F-16
and i heard tat there was an option for another 18.

they might have confused the agreement of more 18 F-16 with delivery


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## BelligerentPacifist

^ I think it is a newspiece about the overall programme of 18 /52s and 14 EDA they got thus far.


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## Last Hope

See? I told you all that Pakistan is indeed getting 18 more F-16Cs 
No one believed me and Think Tanks lashed me back. But, there you go!


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## soul hacker

BREAKING NEWS
1. F16 MAI AISI KOI CHEEZ NAHI JO AMERICAN JETS KO NISHANA BANANE SE ROK SAKAIN"RAO SULAIMAN
2. NEW F16 SE MULKI DIFA MAZBOOT HOGA"ASHFAQ KYANI

WOW THATS GREAT


----------



## Saifullah Sani

*NO KILLER SWITCH on new F16 says COAS*

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## Saifullah Sani

COAS Gen Ashfaq Pervez Kayani said that restoration of NATO&#8217;S supply would be decided by Parliament.


While talking to the media in Jaccobabad, he said that *this is wrong impression that Pakistani fighter jets are unable to hit the NATO plans.*

He said that F-16 jets would be seldom used in war on terror, adding that restoration of NATO supply would be decided by the Parliament.
http://dunyanews.tv/index.php?key=Q2F0SUQ9MiNOaWQ9NjUzMTQ=


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## VelocuR

Peaceful Civlian said:


> You need drivers to run these avionics and chips which is Programming language. Pakistan is very expertise in this field, and you know our programmers used C++ language in JF17 with millions of codes and instructions. There are many programmers in Pakistan.. Yes Pakistan need expertise in hardware field specially with avionics system hardware components.



Yes, we can. I know, the current development in JF-17 avionics and still long way to go. 



killerx said:


> *you mean us can track our f16 what a relife so can tell indian even* before we take off our pilots how can they fly in this junk



Yes likely. US is now favor India alliance over Pakistan. It is game change today. US gave F-16s specificiations for Pakistan to use against terrorists in WOT, not providing Apache helicopters. 



Saifullah Sani said:


> *NO KILLER SWITCH on new F16 says COAS*



COAS has numerous lies in his mouth, he didn't explain the truth. Newer F-16 Block 50+ is still with the most advanced chip virus and jammed system. 

Pakistan's F-16 missile couldn't fire at Stealth helicopters after OBL raid, the systems was totally blocked. And during NATO helicopters attacked thousand Pakistani soldiers(specific 25-28 dead) on checkposts, there was no response from PAF within 2-5 hours. 



Saifullah Sani said:


> COAS Gen Ashfaq Pervez Kayani said that restoration of NATO&#8217;S supply would be decided by Parliament.
> 
> 
> While talking to the media in Jaccobabad, he said that *this is wrong impression that Pakistani fighter jets are unable to hit the NATO plans.*
> 
> He said that F-16 jets would be seldom used in war on terror, adding that restoration of NATO supply would be decided by the Parliament.
> Dunya News: Pakistanarliament will decide NATO supply restoration: CO...



Do you know what is identification friend or foe (IFF) system in F-16 systems which unable to fire at US, its alliance NATO and others? 

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/131900-f16-no-good-against-us-air-force.html 

Pakistan happy to purchase this, oh wait, 14 more fighters and corruptions behind curtains.....

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## proindian

Pakistan received F-16 Block 52 C
February 6, 2012 Air Forces Tech, All, Military Tech No comments



A fleet of four F16 aircrafts provided by the US have officially been introduced into Pakistan Air Force today in a ceremonial at the Shahbaz Airbase. One of them was the latest model of F-16 Block 52.

The three F-16s are part of a batch of 18 aircrafts to be given to the Pakistan Air Force by the end of the year.

The following ceremonial was presided by, Defence Minister Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, US Air Chief General Schwartz, US ambassador to Pakistan Anne Patterson and other senior civil and military officials.

This imported fleet will indeed strengthen the Pakistan Air Force fleet. The Ambassador Anne Patterson said the US is escalating collaboration with Pakistan in the financial and power segments as well.

The second phase of consignment will add five F-16 Block 52 C fighter jets and would be complete within a period of month and a half.



&#8220;The jet fighters were flown from the US to Jacobabad by Pakistan Air Force pilots, who had recently completed training on the new aircraft in the US,&#8221; Air Commodore Tariq Qamar Yazdanie told The Express Tribune. Air Marshal Muhammad Hasan, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Operations), Air Marshal Waseemud Din, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Administration), along with other senior Pakistan Air Force (PAF) officials, received the jets.



The most recent Fighting Falcons rolling off the Lockheed Martin&#8217;s manufacture line in Fort Worth, Texas, are superior Block 50/52 and recently, Block 60 editions. These fabrication series symbolize the largest design change in the F-16 history, offering supplementary fuel and payload ability, new or better avionics and sensors, color cockpit displays with enhanced pilot/vehicle interfaces. Nine countries have already ordered Advanced Block 50/52/60 F-16s, counting the Greece, Israel, UAE, Chile, Pakistan and Poland.


The F-16 Block 52 that arrived Pakistan today also carries the Westinghouse AN/APG-68 V (5) radar, which provides longer range recognition against air targets and superior dependability. The radar has a programmable signal central processing unit that utilizes very high-speed integrated circuit (VHSIC) technology. The next consignment will be definitely beneficial for Pakistan.

Here are exclusive pictures of PAF F-16 block 52 induction ceremonial.













Pakistan received F-16 Block 52 C | The Techlusion


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## mirage 5000




----------



## ziaulislam

RaptorRX707 said:


> Yes, we can. I know, the current development in JF-17 avionics and still long way to go.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes likely. US is now favor India alliance over Pakistan. It is game change today. US gave F-16s specificiations for Pakistan to use against terrorists in WOT, not providing Apache helicopters.
> 
> 
> 
> COAS has numerous lies in his mouth, he didn't explain the truth. Newer F-16 Block 50+ is still with the most advanced chip virus and jammed system.
> 
> Pakistan's F-16 missile couldn't fire at Stealth helicopters after OBL raid, the systems was totally blocked. And during NATO helicopters attacked thousand Pakistani soldiers(specific 25-28 dead) on checkposts, there was no response from PAF within 2-5 hours.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know what is identification friend or foe (IFF) system in F-16 systems which unable to fire at US, its alliance NATO and others?
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/131900-f16-no-good-against-us-air-force.html
> 
> Pakistan happy to purchase this, oh wait, 14 more fighters and corruptions behind curtains.....



Pakistan mostly uses f-7pg and thunder for INTERCEPTION, it has numerous chinese origin land base radars and hell it atleast could have easily shoot the chopper down on its way back BUT it had no intention to do so.
point is the whole rumor is wrong regarding f-16 couldn't shot the chopper because i doubt it would have been sent there in first place.

reason for using thunder/f-7pg for interception is there quick response time


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## nomi007

f-16 is a great jet
world most rlaiable jet
last jalsa of defahe pakistan in lahore against usa also show f-16
in their poster
we need more f-16s peoples who are against this are so innocent
they don't have any alternative
j-10b still in test field not available before 2015
j-2x(stealth version of j-20) will be available after 2018
jf-17 block 2 will be 2014
honestly jf-17 cannot attack deep in side India
only f-16s have ability and old but up gradated are available
think practically before our conditions are like Iranian air force who have no such a good plans for future
i m in favor in pak-us relations
because after 2020 we can get f-35
and paf also interested in that beast


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## nomi007

Wikipedia shows that now we have 100 f-16s is his true?


----------



## soul hacker

nomi007 said:


> f-16 is a great jet
> world most rlaiable jet
> last jalsa of defahe pakistan in lahore against usa also show f-16
> in their poster
> we need more f-16s peoples who are against this are so innocent
> they don't have any alternative
> j-10b still in test field not available before 2015
> j-2x(stealth version of j-20) will be available after 2018
> jf-17 block 2 will be 2014
> honestly jf-17 cannot attack deep in side India
> only f-16s have ability and old but up gradated are available
> think practically before our conditions are like Iranian air force who have no such a good plans for future
> i m in favor in pak-us relations
> because after 2020 we can get f-35
> and paf also interested in that beast


Inshallah after 2020 we will no further dependent on foreign equipment in terms of millitary, WE WILL HAVE OUR OWN 5 GENERATION JET


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## air marshal



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## truthseeker2010

Is the ACM still qualifies to fly the F-16, I mean his eyesight is not weak?


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## Aamir Hussain

RaptorRX707 said:


> Yes, we can. I know, the current development in JF-17 avionics and still long way to go.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes likely. US is now favor India alliance over Pakistan. It is game change today. US gave F-16s specificiations for Pakistan to use against terrorists in WOT, not providing Apache helicopters.
> 
> 
> 
> COAS has numerous lies in his mouth, he didn't explain the truth. Newer F-16 Block 50+ is still with the most advanced chip virus and jammed system.
> 
> Pakistan's F-16 missile couldn't fire at Stealth helicopters after OBL raid, the systems was totally blocked. And during NATO helicopters attacked thousand Pakistani soldiers(specific 25-28 dead) on checkposts, there was no response from PAF within 2-5 hours.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know what is identification friend or foe (IFF) system in F-16 systems which unable to fire at US, its alliance NATO and others?
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/131900-f16-no-good-against-us-air-force.html
> 
> Pakistan happy to purchase this, oh wait, 14 more fighters and corruptions behind curtains.....



My friend the so called "Killer Switch" technology is not there as yet. Just recently, USAF has floated an RFP for the technology.

As far as IFF is concerned. It is the user who defines the IFF parameters and not the mfg. 

And furthermore, anytime a weapon system manufactured by someone else is sold to other than to the country listed in the original End User Certificate, one has to get an NOC from the manufaturing country. It is not the same as selling hammers!

You guys need to wake up and smell the coffee. It seems like in our eagerness to play down the importance of F-16 to the mission capability of PAF, we are comming up with hair brianed schemes and solutions that just do not exists. 

BTW, any equipment using GPS as a triangulation method can be reverse triangulated. There is nothing new in that. If the J-10's will carry this than they can also be located by the sattellite it is using for triangulation.

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## [--Leo--]

nomi007 said:


> Wikipedia shows that now we have 100 f-16s is his true?



41+4+18+14 = 77 F-16 That is True


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## SQ8

truthseeker2010 said:


> Is the ACM still qualifies to fly the F-16, I mean his eyesight is not weak?



Backseat driver.

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## TaimiKhan

Current Army Chief & Air Chief seem to be very close, i think i have not seen such a relationship in the past. 

And this is a good thing, the Air Chief should be close to Naval chief too, since Air force is gonna give air cover to naval assets also.

A good relation should exist between all the chief and mutual officer exchanges should have as it reduces inter service jealously / differences.

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## soul hacker

Aamir Hussain said:


> My friend the so called "Killer Switch" technology is not there as yet. Just recently, USAF has floated an RFP for the technology.
> 
> As far as IFF is concerned. It is the user who defines the IFF parameters and not the mfg.
> 
> And furthermore, anytime a weapon system manufactured by someone else is sold to other than to the country listed in the original End User Certificate, one has to get an NOC from the manufaturing country. It is not the same as selling hammers!
> 
> You guys need to wake up and smell the coffee. It seems like in our eagerness to play down the importance of F-16 to the mission capability of PAF, we are comming up with hair brianed schemes and solutions that just do not exists.
> 
> BTW, any equipment using GPS as a triangulation method can be reverse triangulated. There is nothing new in that. If the J-10's will carry this than they can also be located by the sattellite it is using for triangulation.



USAF has floated an RFP for the technology. some one elaborate a litlle bit


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## Sapper

Aamir Hussain said:


> My friend the so called "Killer Switch" technology is not there as yet. Just recently, USAF has floated an RFP for the technology.
> As far as IFF is concerned. It is the user who defines the IFF parameters and not the mfg.
> 
> BTW, any equipment using GPS as a triangulation method can be reverse triangulated. There is nothing new in that. If the J-10's will carry this than they can also be located by the sattellite it is using for triangulation.



Dear,

Little Correction required here.

1. GPS cannot be reverse triangulated, It is One-Way Radio transmission only.
2. Kill switch & and IFF is a very security sensitive issue, and yes, there is some hanky panky in this, but not in the way most users percieve it, its complicated, and some things are better left to professionals to sort out themselves.

Regards,
Sapper

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## farhan_9909

[--Leo--];2596027 said:


> 41+4+18+14 = 77 F-16 That is True



sorry
45 MLU
18 Block 52
14 to be delivered
and 18 the guy is talking about that today 18 more are confirmed..though i have nt seen the news.though option of the 18 more is on table this is what i know

45+18+14+18=*95 F-16*


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## thriller

Pakistan received last LM F-16 Block 52 aircraft from USA

Islamabad, Pakistan - Many Hi-Tech improvements for the famous American falcon

(WAPA) - The fighter aircraft Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 52 (where "Block" means the different modernized models of this famous multi-role fighter literally sold all over the world) is one of the articles USA already have from many time in their catalogue. 

The "Block 52" version provide two movable enlargements on both side of the fuselage that are the main aesthetic change of this aircraft, enlargements called CFT (Conformal Fuel Tanks, which greatly improve the flight autonomy), and an "hump" on the backside axis which increase to 850 L the internal structural volume available to avionics. 

Obviously there are also many electronic Hi-Tech improvements such as the Northrop Grumman (ex Westinghouse) AN/APG-68 radar and the "Joint" package with all the modules and the helmet integrated display. 

Pakistan, instead of all the controversies due to the (strange) Osama Bin Laden capture, received the last of a series of this aircraft bought from America. The agreement was signed in 2006 for the furniture of 18 aircraft (about whose 6 are two-seater). 

Between the articles Pakistan purchased from USA there is the entire weapons panoply this aircraft is able to carry with (another demonstration America is really good to separate international politic and economy when it's needed), such as 500 medium-range air-to-air AIM-120C5 AMRAAM missiles, 200 short-range dogfight AIM-9 Sidewinder, 1600 enhanced bombs GBU-12/24 laser guided and 700 armor-piercing bombs BLU-109. 

A really great purchase for a Country USA bombed until last summer with its Predator UAV. 

Below the video presentation of F-16 Block 52 Lockheed Martin released. 

Video:
(youtube.com/watch?v=0yPSXrT1eew&feature=player_embedded)

Link:
(avionews.com/index.php?corpo=see_news_home.php&news_id=1137669&pagina_chiamante=index.php)


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## airbus101

CAS ACM Rao Qamar, COAS General Kayani visited Shahbaz Air Base - February 13, 2012 - YouTube


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## araz

proindian said:


> Pakistan received F-16 Block 52 C
> February 6, 2012 Air Forces Tech, All, Military Tech No comments
> 
> 
> 
> A fleet of four F16 aircrafts provided by the US have officially been introduced into Pakistan Air Force today in a ceremonial at the Shahbaz Airbase. One of them was the latest model of F-16 Block 52.
> 
> The three F-16s are part of a batch of 18 aircrafts to be given to the Pakistan Air Force by the end of the year.
> 
> The following ceremonial was presided by, Defence Minister Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, US Air Chief General Schwartz, US ambassador to Pakistan Anne Patterson and other senior civil and military officials.
> 
> This imported fleet will indeed strengthen the Pakistan Air Force fleet. The Ambassador Anne Patterson said the US is escalating collaboration with Pakistan in the financial and power segments as well.
> 
> The second phase of consignment will add five F-16 Block 52 C fighter jets and would be complete within a period of month and a half.
> 
> 
> 
> The jet fighters were flown from the US to Jacobabad by Pakistan Air Force pilots, who had recently completed training on the new aircraft in the US, Air Commodore Tariq Qamar Yazdanie told The Express Tribune. Air Marshal Muhammad Hasan, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Operations), Air Marshal Waseemud Din, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Administration), along with other senior Pakistan Air Force (PAF) officials, received the jets.
> 
> 
> 
> The most recent Fighting Falcons rolling off the Lockheed Martins manufacture line in Fort Worth, Texas, are superior Block 50/52 and recently, Block 60 editions. These fabrication series symbolize the largest design change in the F-16 history, offering supplementary fuel and payload ability, new or better avionics and sensors, color cockpit displays with enhanced pilot/vehicle interfaces. Nine countries have already ordered Advanced Block 50/52/60 F-16s, counting the Greece, Israel, UAE, Chile, Pakistan and Poland.
> 
> 
> The F-16 Block 52 that arrived Pakistan today also carries *the Westinghouse AN/APG-68 V (5) radar,* which provides longer range recognition against air targets and superior dependability. The radar has a programmable signal central processing unit that utilizes very high-speed integrated circuit (VHSIC) technology. The next consignment will be definitely beneficial for Pakistan.
> 
> Here are exclusive pictures of PAF F-16 block 52 induction ceremonial.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan received F-16 Block 52 C | The Techlusion



Man I must be getting senile or these guys are playing mind games with me. For instance i cant make heads or tail out of this piece of news. Now somebody correct me if I am wrong.
A: It seems we have received EDA F16Bl 50/52 with AN APG68 V5 radars.These will require to be upgraded to V9 version for fleet compatibility. 
B: Three of these are C and 1 is the new Bl52(Presumably the last of the 18 from the last consignment). If that is the case then what did we receive from US a couple of days ago when the news came out that a Bl.52D and 2B.15 MLUs had arrived?
C: Fourthly, we are going to receive another 5Cs as EDA next month. 
D:Then the final issue of another 18 Bl52s remains unresolved. Have we ordered them or not
Could someone please clear the mist from my brain?


----------



## VelocuR

airbus101 said:


> CAS ACM Rao Qamar, COAS General Kayani visited Shahbaz Air Base - February 13, 2012 - YouTube


^^^





Rafale, what does to do with PAF F-16 Block 52?




soul hacker said:


> USAF has floated an RFP for the technology. some one elaborate a litlle bit



There is nothing new in Request For Proposal (RFP) where customers demand an issue to meet their specific requirements and detailed except sensitive security issues(Killer Switch/IFF). It was started since 1970s. 


i.e 


> South Korea appears ready to issue a request for proposals (RFP) for a long awaited programme to upgrade its Lockheed Martin/Korea Aerospace Industries F-16C/D fighters.





> The RFP specified three main objectives. The aircraft should fully explore the advantages of emerging technologies, reduce the risk and uncertainties involved in full-scale development and production, and provide a variety of technological options to meet future military hardware needs.



as well to India MMRC most advanced latest F-16s RFP. I don't think US giving a free-virus on F-16s systems to Pakistan since US and Pakistan aren't trust worthy friends.



Aamir Hussain said:


> My friend the so called "Killer Switch" technology is not there as yet. Just recently, USAF has floated an RFP for the technology.
> 
> As far as IFF is concerned. It is the user who defines the IFF parameters and not the mfg.
> 
> And furthermore, anytime a weapon system manufactured by someone else is sold to other than to the country listed in the original End User Certificate, one has to get an NOC from the manufaturing country. It is not the same as selling hammers!
> 
> *You guys need to wake up and smell the coffee. It seems like in our eagerness to play down the importance of F-16 to the mission capability of PAF, we are comming up with hair brianed schemes and solutions that just do not exists.
> *
> BTW, any equipment using GPS as a triangulation method can be reverse triangulated. There is nothing new in that. If the J-10's will carry this than they can also be located by the sattellite it is using for triangulation.



How is that important to Pakistan, it doesn't save our country much lately. US trapped Pakistan in every corners, would F-16s rescue us in many ways? 

It is contrary, many Pakistanis hate US bullies and media wars on Pakistan reputation but love F-16sold prides. Did we learn anything anything from US raids? No. 

Let me remind you again, when Pakistan received newest F-16s Block 52 completely last year for the first time around January 2011 before US fully attacked Pakistan via Raymond Davis (January to March), OBL raids (May), Mehran Attack (June), ISI v-arms by Mullen (August), 200 terrorists attacks (August-Sept) and NATO attacks on thousand Pakistan soldiers (November). 

*Some of us already wake up with hot coffee and smell goods, COAS Kiyani and Tom Cruise Rao Suleman has no concerned for Pakistan.*


----------



## thriller

Well the members keep on posting conflicting number of F-16s currently serving PAF. It is my understanding that PAF has total of 63 F-16 as follows:

31 F-16A/B
Remaining from the original order of 40.

14 F-16A/Bs
Pakistan ordered 71 (1988, 1988) and only 28 were built and further production was stopped as a result of embargo. The 28 air craft were evenly split between USAF and US Navy. After the attacks on 9/11 the Pakistani government became a major US ally in the war on terror. It was decided to redeliver those aircraft to Pakistan. Until now, only half of them from USAF have been redelivered, with the remainder from US Navy still to follow (US Navy has not yet decided to relinquish those air crafts).

18 F-16C/Ds

Total F-16 = 63

Out of 45 A/Bs, first two were sent to USA for mid life upgrade and have been delivered to Pakistan recently. Three more were sent to turkey for upgrade and has been delivered to Pakistan and are being tested in Turkey by Pakistani Pilots.


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## Saifullah Sani




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## BATMAN

TaimiKhan said:


> Current Army Chief & Air Chief seem to be very close, i think i have not seen such a relationship in the past.
> 
> And this is a good thing, the Air Chief should be close to Naval chief too, since Air force is gonna give air cover to naval assets also.
> 
> A good relation should exist between all the chief and mutual officer exchanges should have as it reduces inter service jealously / differences.



This is your impression from images above but i see that Kiyani is there to see the ITEM which is forcing him to exercise restrain.

I guess, US has pitched some more F-16 and ACM is doing its bidding, which is subjected to general Kyiani's further restrain.

IMO... Pakistan will be better off by rejecting this carrot.


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

The BLK 52 rules----it is a force multiplier----we already have a base and infra structure for this air craft--so as many we can lay our hand upon---it will benefit us in the long run.

I believe that the paks need to be grateful to the u s---suddenly we have an edge in air to air combat in BVR---. The game has suddenly changed and you people have not even noticed. Now---the aim 120 rules the skies---where it is needed----the playing field is being levelled again people, or possibly slighty tilted in our favour once we get the whole stock of F16's upgrades and the blk 52.

You got to be thankful----regardless of our differences with uncle sam---he has delivered one more time---so stop this u s bashing for awhile----. Thank you.

The su 30 just can't come barging any more----come on guys wake up---.

Now if we would have picked up the grippen or the rafale in 2003---that would be a different story----at this stage----there is no subtitute for the blk 52. Your pilots are already proficient in this aircraft---so why shift gears---. You are slowly getting close to the adversary---so why start buliding from scratch----.


There are no kill switches in the F16's against the IAF----rest assured---no american would want its top notch air craft shot down by a russian or a french air craft----if such is the case---then any one of the technicians or assemblers in the u s would speaj out against it----.

American weapons systems don't play second fiddle to no kill switch----. Their presence would be the equivalent of death blow to the u s defence industry---.

Please remember---the defence industry is based on trust---you trust the equipment will work for you when you need it---10---20--30 years down the road.

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## BATMAN



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## Donatello

Saifullah Sani said:


>



Already showing signs of rust !

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Where do you see the 'rust'?


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## farhan_9909

Donatello said:


> Already showing signs of rust !



these are block 52 last year received notice the CFT

they are still in their puberty and has a long life left


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## Donatello

The vertical rivets line on the CFT, next to the Danger Triangle.......or is that sand?


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## monitor

* Pakistan receives six F-16s from Turkey & USA*

By: Greg Waldron Singapore
1 hours ago

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/images/a...ernational.png

Pakistan has received its last Lockheed Martin F-16D Block 52 aircraft and two upgraded F-16 Block 15s from the USA, while Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) has delivered three upgraded Pakistan air force F-16s in Ankara.

The Block 52 example (below) was the last aircraft in an 18-aircraft deal signed in 2006 for 12 F-16C single-seat fighters, and six F-16D two-seaters, the air force said in a statement.

The two F-16 Block F-15 aircraft were among four aircraft sent to the USA for a mid-life upgrade, it added. The remaining pair will return from the USA later this year.

The three aircraft arrived together at the Pakistan air force's Shahbaz (Jacobabad) airbase, where a small ceremony was held.

According to Pakistan media reports, there was some concern that the 18th Block 52 would never arrive. It was originally scheduled to arrive last year, but this was delayed owing to the tensions resulting from the US special forces raid in Pakistan last March that resulted in the death of Osama Bin Laden.

Separately, TAI announced that it has delivered the first three Pakistan air force F-16s that to receive a mid-life upgrade in Turkey. The aircraft were presented to Pakistani officials in Ankara and have yet to depart for Pakistan.

In 2009, TAI was selected to provide a mid-life upgrade for 41 F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft under Pakistan's "Peace Drive II" programme. The company upgrades the aircraft, performs flight tests and will train a total of 72 Pakistan air force technicians. Work under the deal is expected to conclude by September 2014, the company said.

Pakistan's 18 F-16 Block 52s are powered by Pratt & Whitney F100-229 engines, with other systems understood to include Northrop Grumman's mechanically scanned APG-68(V)9 radar and ITT's ALQ-211(V)9 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare suite.

A proposed weapons package outlined by the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency in 2006 included 500 Raytheon AIM-120C5 advanced medium-range air-to-air missiles and 200 short-range AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinders, plus 500 Boeing joint direct attack munitions, 1,600 enhanced GBU-12/24 laser-guided bombs and 700 BLU-109 penetrator bombs.


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## [--Leo--]

Did we receive more 18 F-16 Block 52+ on 13-02-2012?
I heard in news that we are getting 2nd Hand 14 F-16?


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## farhan_9909

*Shehbaz Airbase Under Pak control fully
the 14 to be received are free of cost*
(Xinhua)
08:59, February 14, 2012

ISLAMABAD, Feb. 13 (Xinhua) -- Pakistan Air Chief Air Marshal Rao Qamar Sulema said on Monday that the country is manufacturing* its own spy aircraft and will soon be able to prepare pilotless plane equipped with missile technology, local media reported.*

*Talking to reporters at the Shehbaz Airbase in southern Sindh province, he said Pakistan is making unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV drones) at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in the town of Kamra near Islamabad, Geo TV reported.*

Asked if the F-16 aircraft that Pakistan recently received from the U.S. *can down American drones,* Suleman said that the Pakistan Air Force does not want any such situation.

The media people were taken to the Shehbaz Airbase to formally announce that the airbase is *now under the complete control of the Pakistan Air Force.*

The U.S., which used the airbase for drone attacks in Afghanistan and possibly in Pakistan, was told to vacate the base by Pakistan in the aftermath of the November 26 NATO strike on Pakistani posts, which had killed 24 soldiers.

*The Air Chief said that 14 used F-16s were provided to Pakistan by the U.S. free of cost* while 18 others have been bought.

The Army Chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani said on the occasion that the *parliament reserves the right to decide on the resumption of NATO supplies.*

He said that the final decision on whether NATO supplies will be allowed to pass through Pakistan for forces based in Afghanistan will be made by the Parliamentary Committee on National Security.

The Army Chief said that Pakistan and the U.S. are cooperating on defence operations and Pakistani officials are taken into confidence whenever bordering areas are to be attacked.

Talking about the Coalition Support Fund, which was set up by the U.S. Congress after the September 11, 2001, attacks to reimburse allies for costs in supporting the U.S.-led war on militancy, General Kayani said that Pakistan was yet to receive 1. 5 billion U.S. dollars from the U.S.

Pakistan making own spy aircraft: Air Chief - People's Daily Online

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## TOPGUN

BATMAN said:


>



Batman awsome pic yaar thx


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## [--Leo--]

farhan_9909 said:


> *Shehbaz Airbase Under Pak control fully
> the 14 to be received are free of cost*
> (Xinhua)
> 08:59, February 14, 2012
> 
> ISLAMABAD, Feb. 13 (Xinhua) -- Pakistan Air Chief Air Marshal Rao Qamar Sulema said on Monday that the country is manufacturing* its own spy aircraft and will soon be able to prepare pilotless plane equipped with missile technology, local media reported.*
> 
> *Talking to reporters at the Shehbaz Airbase in southern Sindh province, he said Pakistan is making unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV drones) at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in the town of Kamra near Islamabad, Geo TV reported.*
> 
> Asked if the F-16 aircraft that Pakistan recently received from the U.S. *can down American drones,* Suleman said that the Pakistan Air Force does not want any such situation.
> 
> The media people were taken to the Shehbaz Airbase to formally announce that the airbase is *now under the complete control of the Pakistan Air Force.*
> 
> The U.S., which used the airbase for drone attacks in Afghanistan and possibly in Pakistan, was told to vacate the base by Pakistan in the aftermath of the November 26 NATO strike on Pakistani posts, which had killed 24 soldiers.
> 
> *The Air Chief said that 14 used F-16s were provided to Pakistan by the U.S. free of cost* while 18 others have been bought.
> 
> The Army Chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani said on the occasion that the *parliament reserves the right to decide on the resumption of NATO supplies.*
> 
> He said that the final decision on whether NATO supplies will be allowed to pass through Pakistan for forces based in Afghanistan will be made by the Parliamentary Committee on National Security.
> 
> The Army Chief said that Pakistan and the U.S. are cooperating on defence operations and Pakistani officials are taken into confidence whenever bordering areas are to be attacked.
> 
> Talking about the Coalition Support Fund, which was set up by the U.S. Congress after the September 11, 2001, attacks to reimburse allies for costs in supporting the U.S.-led war on militancy, General Kayani said that Pakistan was yet to receive 1. 5 billion U.S. dollars from the U.S.
> 
> Pakistan making own spy aircraft: Air Chief - People's Daily Online



we receive 14 2nd hand F-16 are these Block 52+ and did we get 18 new F-16?


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## ziaulislam

well frankly this hype has no meaning. The news nowhere indicates 18 new f-16s.
however its possible not confirmed though, that we may get 14 more from EDA(which were already paid for!!). What will be nature of these, we dont know.

LAstly block52 despite waht indians may say is still undoubtedly the best aircraft in the region

the j-10b which is still in testing stage may equal it but its questionable.


So in nutshell we should get as much as f-16s as we can to deter the MRCA


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## janu.bravo

RaptorRX707 said:


> Yes, we can. I know, the current development in JF-17 avionics and still long way to go.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes likely. US is now favor India alliance over Pakistan. It is game change today. US gave F-16s specificiations for Pakistan to use against terrorists in WOT, not providing Apache helicopters.
> 
> 
> 
> COAS has numerous lies in his mouth, he didn't explain the truth. Newer F-16 Block 50+ is still with the most advanced chip virus and jammed system.
> 
> Pakistan's F-16 missile couldn't fire at Stealth helicopters after OBL raid, the systems was totally blocked. And during NATO helicopters attacked thousand Pakistani soldiers(specific 25-28 dead) on checkposts, there was no response from PAF within 2-5 hours.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know what is identification friend or foe (IFF) system in F-16 systems which unable to fire at US, its alliance NATO and others?
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/131900-f16-no-good-against-us-air-force.html
> 
> Pakistan happy to purchase this, oh wait, 14 more fighters and corruptions behind curtains.....


 



LOL Raptor do you have any idea how Kill switch works? Please explain me I want to know
As far as I know there are 3 possible ways to install Kill Switch
1. You have to put GPS transmitter in plane and check if it is going sumwhere near to Indian or Afghanistan border, thn freeze its attacking capability; which is not possible as our F-16's already flew near to afghanistan border for war against terrorism.
2. You have to track and monitor the plane through satellites which is also not possible because satellite can watch sum place for 6 hour thn it have to move to diff orbit
3. If Lockheed Marting installed sum planes by-default that this plane can't hit Nato planes(by there models or some different identities like F-16,F-15,F-18) Indian (Su-30,Mig-29) thn again its a bogus idea because how come they will know which aircraft PAF opponents will use in future?
Kill switch can cause problems and also can destroy the F-16 completly but my question is how US can enable that option?
Peace


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## hatf IX

janu.bravo said:


> LOL Raptor do you have any idea how Kill switch works? Please explain me I want to know
> As far as I know there are 3 possible ways to install Kill Switch
> 1. You have to put GPS transmitter in plane and check if it is going sumwhere near to Indian or Afghanistan border, thn freeze its attacking capability; which is not possible as our F-16's already flew near to afghanistan border for war against terrorism.
> 2. You have to track and monitor the plane through satellites which is also not possible because satellite can watch sum place for 6 hour thn it have to move to diff orbit
> 3. If Lockheed Marting installed sum planes by-default that this plane can't hit Nato planes(by there models or some different identities like F-16,F-15,F-18) Indian (Su-30,Mig-29) thn again its a bogus idea because how come they will know which aircraft PAF opponents will use in future?
> Kill switch can cause problems and also can destroy the F-16 completly but my question is how US can enable that option?
> Peace


 
i think you should read this . . . . 
Transponder (aviation) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

specially code assigned by ATC that type of thing can be done in f16's


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## Edevelop




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## janu.bravo

hatf IX said:


> i think you should read this . . . .
> Transponder (aviation) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> specially code assigned by ATC that type of thing can be done in f16's



So what's the relation of kill switch with transponder transmitter? A/C use that for response, doesn't mean they can implement the kill-switch in transponder and can paralyse your A/C when it is doing dogfight.


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## Windjammer

Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleyman said the western and eastern borders were safe. About Indias cold start doctrine with a focus on aerial power, he said the PAF had the capability to avert any threat posed by the doctrine.

He said Pakistan had received 18 F-16 Block-52 planes, besides 14 used jets for almost free.

He said the Block-15 planes acquired in the early 80s were in the process of mid-term upgradation (MLU) to bring their avionics, radar and night operations capability on par with the Block-52 fighter jets.

He said two of the upgraded planes had recently been received while three more were due this month. He said all the remaining 30 planes would be delivered by 2014.

The aim now is to train sufficient number of people and consolidate our position. He said the hardware acquired in the recent past was sufficient to meet the countrys defence needs.

About prospects of a deal with China for purchase of J-10 fighter planes, he said that the PAF would like to go for it in case of availability of funds.

He brushed aside the impression that the modern F-16s had some inbuilt features restricting their capacity to intercept and attack the intruding US aircraft.

We have not found any such thing in these aircraft. He, however, said he hoped a situation would not arise to put it to test.

Answering a question, he said Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) for surveillance purposes were already being produced at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra. About killer drones, he said: We will work on it.

Earlier, Deputy Chief of Air Staff (operations) Air Marshal Waseemuddin said during a briefing that one of the four Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS) from China had been delivered last month.

Answering a question, he said the PAF was bound by policies of the government and had no other special relationship with the US.

The Commander of Shahbaz Airbase said the US forces had been allowed to operate from the base after the 9/11 episode, but claimed that it had been vacated way back in 2004. He, however, confirmed that an unspecified number of technical experts from the US were at the base.

He said after acquisition of F-16 Block-52, there were two options, either to send a large number of personnel to the US or contract small teams of non-uniformed US personnel for training in specific areas.


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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer



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## S-A-B-E-R->

BATMAN said:


>



guys is that large triangular object in the front a glide bomb , cruse missle or gust a EW pod?


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## SQ8

airbus101 said:


> video



PTV showing a Rafale in their background.. how ironic.. guess both the Indian media and Pakistani media love each other's equipment. If it were up to them, India would have F-16's and Jf-17's and Pakistan rafale's and Su-30's.
Anyhow..the BFF status of the two chief also underlines the new synergy between the PAF and PA.
Both in personnel and equipment.

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## soul hacker

Oscar said:


> Backseat driver.



sir jee ye to khoda phaar nikla chuha hogia


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## mirage 5000




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## Edevelop

This is the first time i'm seeing a thread Indian free!
I think they get scared when it comes to F-16s.

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## mirage 5000

cb4 said:


> This is the first time............



but by this post you invite trolls here sir please edit your post.


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## Edevelop

mirage 5000 said:


> but by this post you invite trolls here sir please edit your post.



I did. I posted a pic. Doesn't that go with the thread?


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## SQ8

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> guys is that large triangular object in the front a glide bomb , cruse missle or gust a EW pod?



AGM-154C JSOW.

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## soul hacker

Oscar said:


> AGM-154C JSOW.


and for what purpose?


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## air marshal




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## mirage 5000

soul hacker said:


> and for what purpose?




standardized medium range precision guided weapon, especially for engagement of defended targets from outside the range of standard anti-aircraft defenses, thereby increasing aircraft survivability and minimizing friendly losses.


AGM-154 Joint Standoff Weapon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## thriller

SGA 2012: ITT Exelis confirms first AIDEWS deal

14 February 2012 - 4:37 by Andrew White in Singapore 

ITT Exelis has reached 'final negotiations' for the first delivery of its internally-mounted Airborne Integrated Defence Electronic Warfare System (AIDEWS) to Pakistan's air force, according to company officials.

Speaking to Shephard at the Singapore Airshow, ITT Exelis said an agreement with the air force had now been 'definitised' after almost two years of development. Officials blamed the prolonged timelines on bureaucratic issues.

Pakistan signed a $54 million contract with ITT Exelis for 18 AIDEWS and 20 pod shells. The air force already possesses ADEWS- the externally carried version of the sensor- which is carried on board F-16 aircraft. The AIDEWS will also be used to upgrade older F-16s in Pakistan's fleet.

'This allows you to take a box off an old F-16 and carry over to a new F-16,' a company source said while describing the interoperability of the system.

Part of the ALQ-211 pod system family, AIDEWS detects, denies, disrupts, degrades and lethal threats and provides multi-spectral situational awareness, according to ITT Exelis.

Meanwhile, the company is targeting other F-16 programmes around the world, including Taiwan, which is understood to be considering upgrades to its fleet of aircraft. Specifically, Taiwan is considering low and high band electronic countermeasures designed to deal with radar guided threats. Other F-16 operators including Chile, Poland, Turkey and Oman.

In addition, ITT Exelis has upgraded software for AIDEWS with the Block 5.2 variant following recommendations from customers. More specifically, Oman, Chile and Poland have asked for improvements in how the system handles electronically scanned antennas.

Commenting on the electronic warfare market in South-East Asia, ITT Exelis said the 'whole region was realigning itself to new and potential threats'.

'The EW market is being carried along with those changing situations. As region begins to change, Asia-Pacific has become an important growth market both in EW and across our entire portfolio.'


(shephardmedia.com/news/digital-battlespace/sga-2012-itt-exelis-confirms-first-aidews-deal/)

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## soul hacker

AUPP AGM-154A:
AGM-154B: 
AGM-154C: 

which one of these we have and any idea about numbers and can we load it on f16 A,B?


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## mirage 5000

soul hacker said:


> AUPP AGM-154A:
> AGM-154B:
> AGM-154C:
> 
> which one of these we have and any idea about numbers and can we load it on f16 A,B?



we don't have any of them our contract was without them sir .


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## soul hacker

mirage 5000 said:


> we don't have any of them our contract was without them sir .



than what's in the pic ??


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## mirage 5000

soul hacker said:


> than what's in the pic ??



its not PAF block-52 sir its Hellenic air force f-16 weapons show

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## S-A-B-E-R->

mirage 5000 said:


> its not PAF block-52 sir its Hellenic air force f-16 weapons show


but the flag on the tail.....?


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## Stealth

mirage 5000 said:


> its not PAF block-52 sir its Hellenic air force f-16 weapons show



Watch closely "PAKISTAN FLAG"


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## mirage 5000

Stealth said:


> Watch closely "PAKISTAN FLAG"



nope its greek flag i have large size image sometime before its not pakistani sir .

look here original location of image
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=f621ee04-f084-4862-a0c2-2238dc1af4f2


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## mirage 5000

got it 

full size HAF F-16D array, Tenagra 2008







http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/greek-f16-weapons-sale-clearing-for-takeoff-01397/






*"Archangel '05" Airshow, Tanagra, Greece. *

In the next shelter F-16C Block 52+ "537" from 340 Mira was seen displaying some of its weaponry which included among others HARM, AFDS, AMRAAM, while the JHMCS is also seen. CFT's are also on the plane.








http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=99&Itemid=47

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## airbus101

Hellenic Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## DANGER-ZONE

Oscar said:


> AGM-154C JSOW.



Think again. 
I think it is some kind of ALCM.


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## Hello_10

Aamir Hussain said:


> The first aircraft of of a new batch is always retained untill the end of production run for the order. The aircraft is designated as "Lead the Fleet" aircraft. This is done with all other orders as well. Basically, the LTF is done to ensure later modifications or integration of later weapons, avionics, ergonmics etc. that the user might require after the receipt of the first lot of production batch and the flight and PAT cycle is completed.
> 
> The inspection and PAT -- Performance Acceptance Test, is conducted by an independant inspection team on behalf of the user in this case PAF (Paid for and incorporated in the pricing of the program). It is an exhaustive PAT/inspection which is followed up by an exhaustive report to the user on compliance and non-compliance of performance against what was ordered. Mostly the technicians and engineers are ex. USAF or from other airforces with specialisation in the aircraft type they are inspecting. The USAF does an exhaustive flight testing on behalf of user inUS or designated waystation/base.
> 
> Some of the NATO airforces do their own flight testing and accpetance in US. Singapore is one of the few non NATO countries that does their PAT in US.





TOPGUN said:


> Good news however ... what about the news of 18 more blk 52's ? or that just a rumor and any news if US will free up older vipers for us?



One question, how much is the difference between J10 and F16 block52? I guess little, not much. Then, why to pay twice and beg to US, an unreliable supplier?

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## araz

It is not just the cost of a plane that is involved here. PAF has a history going back 30 yrs with F16s. We have 2-3 generations of pilots that have grown up with F16s. We have standardized techniques of attack and defence which it has developed with its F16s. PAF has an established infra structure for repair and its engineers are used to the ins and outs of the plane. To establish all of this takes yrs and this and a lot of money. To give you an idea, PLAAF is a lot more richer than PAF, yet still operates a host of F7s when it clearly has a better plane in FC1 which can easily replace them and a lot more quicker than J10A. Yet it does not do so. Why?
Araz

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## unicorn

*Northrop Grumman Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR)*
FEBRUARY 10, 2012*

The Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR), designed specifically for the F-16, is the newest addition to the Northrop Grumman robust family of multi-function sensors. Leveraging Northrop Grummans world-leading AESA technology base, SABR was designed to maximize radar system performance within existing F-16 allocations. SABR is a full performance fire control AESA designed to the support next generation weapons and tactics, in the presence of the worlds densely-packed electronic threat environment. Backed by decades of experience in the design, development and integration of electronically scanned radar technology, SABR immediately showed its strong heritage, building an unmatched record of successful firsts, when flight operations started. SABR made its debut on an F-16 in November, 2009, making it the first retrofit AESA to fly in an F-16. Because of Northrop Grummans 35+years of experience with the F-16, SABR spent only 3 days in a systems integration lab (SIL) and quick-turned to flight at Edwards AFB. With only USAF flight test pilots and flight test engineers aboard, SABR flew 17 sorties with 100% mission success rate.

*SABR Leverages Commonality to Maximize Affordability*

Since SABRs initial unveiling, Northrop Grumman has continued efforts to expand capability and reduce risk. Our SABR system has accumulated thousands of operating hours in the lab and in the air, all without failure, demonstrating superior operational performance and reliability. The antenna has proven as robust as any of the other 5th generation AESAs Northrop Grumman has produced. SABR takes advantage of Northrop Grummans world-leading processes established for rapid, accurate production of the APG-77, -77(V)1, -80, and -81. Northrop Grumman produces AESA radars in a single facility at one location, allowing for tight quality control at every step. The facility houses both the AESA design and production teams. This enables cross-program synergies and rapid innovation producing very consistent, highly reliable systems. Unique in-house automated manufacture and test, antenna test ranges, and our one-of-a-kind flight engineering and test organization assure that SABRs customers benefit from these synergies.

*5th Generation Fighter Capability*

Northrop Grumman has continued to grow SABRs capabilities. By using an internal software porting process, SABR operational capabilities were enhanced to host F-35 modes. SABR participated along with US Forces in operational scenarios and showcased revolutionary operational performance. SABR flew side-by-side with the APG-81 in matching Northrop Grumman flight test aircraft and produced exceptional results in a very challenging environment. For all those who seek AESA performance to deal with the current and evolving threats, there is no substitute for proven flight test results. Only Northrop Grumman can provide these results, and only Northrop Grumman can link them to 5th Generation Fighter capabilities in an F-16.











Northrop Grumman Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) | Defense Update

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## Sapper

Bellorophon786 said:


> what hanky panky is being done?



Dear,

*Topic-1*
In Pakistan, the children are often told a bedtime-story by the name of "Cat is the Aunt of Lion" (Billi Shair ki Khala hoti hai). In short, a cat trains a lion-cub, and when the Lion grows, and learns everything, it decides to attack its master (the cat) for some reason, at which time the cat climbs a tree and says, I have taught you everything but have kept a trick up my sleeve for this very day. Same is the case here ...

Any country while selling arms reserves the right to ensure that the weapons shall not be used against themself, and this can be assured using verbal and written contracts and also using sophisticated programs. I respect this from my heart, and I believe every self-respecting and intelligent community will behave in similar fashion.

For example, If Pakistan sells JF-17, it would be Pakistan's right to write software routines in Fire-Control-Codes such that a foreign country to whom we have exported this, cannot use our own weapon against us. If not, then the citizens of Pakistan have a right to demand trial of the people responsible of making and selling the equipment to that country without ensuring that it cannot be used against our own military and civilians. God forbid, if any JF-17 sold to any foreign nation, flies in and bombs Pakistani soldiers or civilians, what would be sentiments of the nation? I am 100% confident that the citizens, army, and weapons-builders of US have the same sentiments, and they make sure that their own weapons cannot be used against them, whenever they can. I respect that.

Lets take USA out of the equation. Lets say China tells PAF that we have placed routines in KLJ-7 radar's fire-control-computers aboard the JF-17 to prevent it from firing onto any PLAAF fighters. Would PAF object ? Not a chance. In fact, PAF might ask to put PAF tranponder codes into the exception list as well, so that when sold to third-party buyers, both PLAAF and PAF fighters are safe from being the target of any buyer gone rogue.

Self-preservation is built into humanity's genes, the sooner you learn this the better.

--------------------------------------------

*Topic-2*



BATMAN said:


>



This is *NOT* our viper. Reasons ...

1. Paint scheme is clearly not PAF.
2. I am dead sure that JSOW and AGM-88-HARM (both in the picture) were not part of PAF's weapon's package in 2006.
3. Hanger design is clearly indicates that its not on any PAF base. PAF uses Hardened hangers made of concrete.

All my knowledge suggests that HARM was denied export to PAF, after which PAF went for Brazilian MAR-1. The reason is mentioned before, i.e. Self-Preservation. US usually denies PAF technologies whose Counter-Measure aren't in possession of their armed forces at that moment. HARM is one of those missiles that once fired, even US's own radar sites have no counter-measure for it, as evident from the friendly fire incident of 2003 when an F16 destroyed a Patriot site by mistake.

Regards,
Sapper

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## DANGER-ZONE

Sapper said:


> Dear,
> 
> 1. Paint scheme is clearly not PAF.
> 2. I am dead sure that *JSOW *and AGM-88-HARM (both in the picture) were not part of PAF's weapon's package in 2006.



Wont you mind showing us where JSOW is here in this hanger.


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## DANGER-ZONE

danger-zone said:


>





Oscar said:


> AGM-154C *JSOW.*


 


Sapper said:


> Dear,
> 
> 1. Paint scheme is clearly not PAF.
> 2. I am dead sure that *JSOW *and AGM-88-HARM (both in the picture) were not part of PAF's weapon's package in 2006.



Here is your JSOW
Bombkapsel 90 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





Other weapons in Hanger Right to left.
1. IRIS-T
2. AIM-120
3. AGM-65C
4. GBU-12
5. MK-82 2000lb
6. Bombkapsel 90 (Stand off weapon)
7. AGM-88 HARM
8. GBU-24 (on the other side - left)
9. Aim-9L/M (on the other side - left)

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## RayKalm

Inaugural flight on newly inducted F-16D Block 52+ by ACM Qamar Suleman - February 13, 2012 - YouTube

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## Donatello

mirage 5000 said:


>




Sitting, Right to Left....Third person.......is Lt Gen Zahir-ul-islam.....commander V Corps.


What is he doing there?


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## VelocuR

danger-zone said:


> Here is your *JSOW*



Details here:






Thanks to Sapper, it explained perfectly sense, it confirmed my thought. Absolutely, Pakistan can't fire at its master cat who taught you everything.


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## Donatello

Hi,

Please stop posting pics and pics of weapons that have nothing to do with PAF.

It's creates confusion.


Moderators are completely useless!!!!


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## Edevelop

Jacobabad is quite far from Kashmir. Indian threat is Punjab, Northern Areas isn't it?






So the point is, Why have we placed the F-16 Block 52s there when Sargodha or Peshawar, or somewhere North West is ideal?

If i had to make a decision, i would place the initial 2 JF-17 Squadrons in Jacobabad and 2 F-16 Block 52 Squadrons in Peshawar...


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Proper Map please reference appropriate map of Pakistan

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## indianspetsnaz

i am wondering the F-16BLK52 the PAF operates will they be inferior or superior to the FC-20? (hoping for a unbiased and straight forward answer)


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

87-88 F16 MLU , plus Block C/D might be equal to J10B , but J10B probably has better Missiles longer range and better agility far superior then any fighter in Pakistani inventory 




^^^^^^J10B
^^^^^JF-17 Bloc2
^^^^JF-17---F16C/D---F16MLU
F-7 ---Mirage Rose ---Mirage-----------


J10B really is slightly better then Rafale since it has better evolution and success ratio and better software engineering

Looking at the agility of the plane , its clearly a more agile plane vs F16 100% , and certainly a more agile plane then Bus driver planes Sukhois

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## MZUBAIR

indianspetsnaz said:


> i am wondering the F-16BLK52 the PAF operates will they be inferior or superior to the FC-20? (hoping for a unbiased and straight forward answer)



FC-20 is still in development processs.......................................my feeling is that F-16BLK52 is mature aircraft.


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## MZUBAIR

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 87-88 F16 MLU , plus Block C/D might be equal to J10B , but J10B probably has better Missiles longer range and better agility far superior then any fighter in Pakistani inventory
> 
> ^^^^^^J10B
> ^^^^^JF-17 Bloc2
> ^^^^JF-17---F16C/D
> F-7 ---F16MLU ---Mirage
> 
> 
> J10B really is slightly better then Rafale since it has better evolution and success ratio and better software engineering


 
J10B is in under development.....we cann't compare it with any aricraft........
Rafale and F16BLK52 are mature aircrafts in respect of radar, engine, avionics and ECM Systems etc.

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## indianspetsnaz

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 87-88 F16 MLU , plus Block C/D might be equal to J10B , but J10B probably has better Missiles longer range and better agility far superior then any fighter in Pakistani inventory
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^^^^J10B
> ^^^^^JF-17 Bloc2
> ^^^^JF-17---F16C/D
> F-7 ---F16MLU ---Mirage
> 
> 
> J10B really is slightly better then Rafale since it has better evolution and success ratio and better software engineering
> 
> Looking at the agility of the plane , its clearly a more agile plane vs F16 100% , and certainly a more agile plane then Bus driver planes Sukhois



sir i believe it is quite premature to start comparing J-10B to other aircraft as little is known about it besides the Rafale and F-16's are mature and proven platforms that have been used in combat whereas J-10 has not even been used in combat. 

MZUBAIR pretty much sums up the point

---------- Post added at 09:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 PM ----------




MZUBAIR said:


> FC-20 is still in development processs.......................................my feeling is that F-16BLK52 is mature aircraft.



is FC-20 the export variant of J-10A for the PAF or J-10B?

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

No problem , we will ignore the fact that Chinese have been flying J10A successfully for god knows 10 years but we will assume that J10B will not be successful 

What are the chances of that .. 

Rafale is also a experimental plane mostly used to bomb "unequipped enemies" , and as for its avionics its pretty lame that it does not even have proper AESA radar not untill 2015 and frist French Airforce will get equiped , guess when will any other buyer will see any goods. And we all know how difficult is to upgrade french technology Good luck with that 

Thats why JF17 thunder even has a advantage every thing is modular , for J10B we know AESA is being worked on and also the new engine is being tested in final stages 

J10B would be crown jewel in Pakistan Airforce - because , the missiles it will carry will have unprecedented coverage and scope

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## MastanKhan

Hello_10 said:


> One question, how much is the difference between J10 and F16 block52? I guess little, not much. Then, why to pay twice and beg to US, an unreliable supplier?



Hi,

I am surprised that you did not know that-----. F16 has been deployed for 30 plus years now and is the most successful example of the modern day multirole aircraft----as a matter of fact it sets the standards by which other aircraft are measured----. The J10B----is still to see service as yet. Once it gets into service---then its capabilities will be assessed and analyzed and its role will be determined----.

In the electronics package---the J10b is about 10 --- 15 years behind the current american F 16---. In bvr missiles----the same thing----possibly another 10 --- 15 years behind in what the current F 16 has to offer----.

If pakistan could have afforded it---it would have been better off with 150---200 F16 blk 52's and MLU's aircraft.

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## MastanKhan

cb4 said:


> Jacobabad is quite far from Kashmir. Indian threat is Punjab, Northern Areas isn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So the point is, Why have we placed the F-16 Block 52s there when Sargodha or Peshawar, or somewhere North West is ideal?
> 
> If i had to make a decision, i would place the initial 2 JF-17 Squadrons in Jacobabad and 2 F-16 Block 52 Squadrons in Peshawar...




cb4,

I am glad that you didnot make that decision----the major threat of attack is from sindh----to cut off karachi---that is why jacobabad----and secondly---- some thing as a matter of pride to hold for the sindhis---having the blk 52 base----.

Then quetta should get couple of sqdrns of JF17's as well alongwith a refueller.

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## ziaulislam

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am surprised that you did not know that-----. F16 has been deployed for 30 plus years now and is the most successful example of the modern day multirole aircraft----as a matter of fact it sets the standards by which other aircraft are measured----. The J10B----is still to see service as yet. Once it gets into service---then its capabilities will be assessed and analyzed and its role will be determined----.
> 
> In the electronics package---the J10b is about 10 --- 15 years behind the current american F 16---. In bvr missiles----the same thing----possibly another 10 --- 15 years behind in what the current F 16 has to offer----.
> 
> If pakistan could have afforded it---it would have been better off with 150---200 F16 blk 52's and MLU's aircraft.


well seeing that chinese are developing a 5th gen aircrft, i dont see why j-10 b which is yet in developing phase to be 10-15 years lagging..i think even the most bias US experts will disagree to it.
however, we can say that j-10 a is 10 years lagging, as it was developed a decade ago , at that time chinese were definetly 10-15 years behind.


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## alimobin memon

J10B will be great addition to Pakistan Airforce but this doesnt mean it is better than rafale ... Rafale is better than fc-20


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## ziaulislam

thats the reason why PAAF is waiting for j-10 b or it wouldnt had gone for j-10b at all but relied upon fewere MLUs and jf-17 instead. The very reason why PAF didnt opted for j-10A in 2006-07 when it had the cash but showed interset, as at that time work was very encourging.

i would take tthe collective word of both US and chinse experts that by 2025 china will be at par with US and by 2015 when j-10 b comes in service it would be very near to the avionic suit of F-16.


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## Windjammer

*
Video garbs from PAF Jacobabad airbase.*

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## truthseeker2010

MastanKhan said:


> cb4,
> 
> I am glad that you didnot make that decision----the major threat of attack is from sindh----to cut off karachi---that is why jacobabad----and secondly---- *some thing as a matter of pride to hold for the sindhis---having the blk 52 base*----.
> 
> Then quetta should get couple of sqdrns of JF17's as well alongwith a refueller.



Really, what should we be proud of?, when these planes can't shoot down the drones, and ACM proudly says that our western borders are safe. Or that during floods the city was flooded to keep the base safe?

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## MZUBAIR

indianspetsnaz said:


> is FC-20 the export variant of J-10A for the PAF or J-10B?



FC-20 is an export version of J10A, which was only offered to PAF.
Besides existance of J10B is still myth.....because usually advance versions of is denoted by B or C. And to my best knowledge and understanding....J10B is upgraded version of J10A which is so far not offered for export to any country *including PAKISTAN*


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## MZUBAIR

truthseeker2010 said:


> Really, what should we be proud of?, when these planes can't shoot down the drones, and ACM proudly says that our western borders are safe. Or that during floods the city was flooded to keep the base safe?



To be very honest, WARS are not dependent on Aircrafts like F16's.......You kill one drone they will bring two drones escorted with F16 , F15's or F18's.
If you want to stop the drone attacks, then try to *win your diplomatic war*......its the only solution to stop drones.

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## Edevelop



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## Donatello

Hello,


The PAF airchief has said that we will get j-10s when we have funds.

So for now...it's 63 F-16s...+ maybe the 12 more EDA ones.......and 150 JF-17s........and some ROSE Mirage Squadrons.


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## Windjammer

Donatello said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> The PAF airchief has said that we will get j-10s when we have funds.
> 
> So for now...it's 63 F-16s...+ maybe the 12 more EDA ones.......and 150 JF-17s........and some ROSE Mirage Squadrons.



Seems the F-7PG has been sidelined in it's relation to the standard F-7P. On the contrary, it's a very agile and capable combat aircraft, also it was PAF's first BVR capable fighter.

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## Sapper

danger-zone said:


> Here is your JSOW
> Bombkapsel 90 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Thanks Dear,

I stand corrected, Its not JSOW, although it looked like one from the extreme side view, but from front its clearly Bombkapsel.
Thanks for the correction.

Regards,
Sapper

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## SQ8

danger-zone said:


> 6. Bombkapsel 90 (Stand off weapon)



that is interesting.. as the HAF did purchase the AGM-154C as part of the Peace Xenia IV deal.
Perhaps they choose another stand-off weapon instead.. as they did with the Iris-T.


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## Windjammer

*Guys, pardon my ignorance, but why does the CFTs have so many removable panels on them. ?
Also the gadget on the intake, is it a laser designator.
Interesting to see the VIPs were flown with live AIM-9L rounds. *


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## untitled

Windjammer said:


> Interesting to see the VIPs were flown with live AIM-9L rounds.



I guess they were not taking any chances in case they were attacked from the air


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> *Guys, pardon my ignorance, but why does the CFTs have so many removable panels on them. ?
> Also the gadget on the intake, is it a laser designator.
> Interesting to see the VIPs were flown with live AIM-9L rounds. *




Maintainence. 
The gadget is not a LD.. thats for sure.


----------



## untitled

Oscar said:


> The gadget is not a LD.. thats for sure.



Looks like the Lockheed Martin Sniper Pod and its mounting rack to me

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## DANGER-ZONE

Oscar said:


> that is interesting.. as the HAF did purchase the AGM-154C as part of the Peace Xenia IV deal.
> *Perhaps they choose another stand-off weapon instead*.. as they did with the Iris-T.



No. They have a handful inventory of JSOW's but it wasn't in the hanger in the snap. 
you can easily search their Falcons carrying AGM-154 on Google.


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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> *Maintainence.*
> The gadget is not a LD.. thats for sure.



I guessed that , but aren't those tanks full of fuel......what maintainence would be required within. ?


----------



## untitled

Windjammer said:


> I guessed that , but aren't those tanks full of fuel......what maintainence would be required within. ?



Cleaning. 

Plus to see if the fuel measuring circuitry is working or not. The principal of capacitance is used to measure fuel. The fuel is used as a dielectric in the circuit (In all fuel tanks not just CFTs)


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## mirage 5000

Windjammer said:


> I guessed that , but aren't those tanks full of fuel......what maintainence would be required within. ?



nope they are not single covered tank is inside it sir gee

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## Windjammer

pdf_shurtah said:


> Cleaning.
> 
> Plus to see if the fuel measuring circuitry is working or not. The principal of capacitance is used to measure fuel. The fuel is used as a dielectric in the circuit (In all fuel tanks)



Yaar, there are some a dozen panels on the CFT alone, on the other hand, the main body has about half that number.

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## Last Hope

cb4 said:


> Jacobabad is quite far from Kashmir. Indian threat is Punjab, Northern Areas isn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So the point is, Why have we placed the F-16 Block 52s there when Sargodha or Peshawar, or somewhere North West is ideal?
> 
> If i had to make a decision, i would place the initial 2 JF-17 Squadrons in Jacobabad and 2 F-16 Block 52 Squadrons in Peshawar...


The Think Tanks must certainly not be fools and must have decided to response. (_Sorry cannot mention about this 'response' _).
As for me, I would like to have them somewhere in mid-Punjab, like Sargoda. 


pdf_shurtah said:


> Looks like the Lockheed Martin Sniper Pod and its mounting rack to me



Yeah you got that right. A sniping pod. The block 52s got them in the package too, and were used in the fight against militants.


----------



## untitled

pdf_shurtah said:


>



Yikes my bad. Appear to be fake CFTs on a aircraft in a museum. Notice the word tourist in the back and an F-15 just behind the F-16


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## Sapper

mirage 5000 said:


> nope they are not single covered tank is inside it sir gee



Dear,

This is the Gun Access/Exhaust Panel on Port/Left side of the F16. It is there because actual Gun-Access-Panel on Port-Dorsal side of viper is covered up by the CFT, when installed, and to allow guns to be fired, cleaned and reloaded, this panel is used.

This specific panel is not present on the Starboard/Right side.

Regards,
Sapper

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## SQ8

pdf_shurtah said:


> Looks like the Lockheed Martin Sniper Pod and its mounting rack to me


Lol.. I was looking at something else.. did not even notice the Sniper.
I though Wj was referring to the small protrusion under the radome.


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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> well seeing that chinese are developing a 5th gen aircrft, i dont see why j-10 b which is yet in developing phase to be 10-15 years lagging..i think even the most bias US experts will disagree to it.
> however, we can say that j-10 a is 10 years lagging, as it was developed a decade ago , at that time chinese were definetly 10-15 years behind.



Hi,

You see, you are assuming now----in a technical field---you cannot assume. When it comes down to material engineering, you either have it or you don't---you maybe be on the road to get it---that is fine---but when! Wars are not fought and won---on the basis of what you are going to get in the future, but rather what you procured five ten years ago.

You kids have developed a bad habbit of comparing and assessing items that are not even in service yet, to those that have been available in form and function for decades.

Does everything needs to be repeated every single time----remember when the JF 17 came out---and all the superstars on this board were talking as if you take on everything in its way the day it came out---till they found that the first batch was for purely for ground strikes---and it has taken them years to see what the aircraft is capable of---.

That process is called integration---and there are many a growing pains in that process---you find out that the radar that you ordered from france and spent years in researching on it is not available----. There are bugs and kinks that needed to be taken outof the system----plus there is the operational manual to be written about the aircraft---. 

But that is beyond it---the thing is that simply the J10B neither has bvr's to match the aim 120 nor other electronic capabilities---it does come close----. A 21st century aircraft claiming itself to be better than an aircraft that started its design in the later half of 20th century---.


An operational AIM 120 has totally changed the game and the rules of engagement in our arena against our arch enemy---india---. Another 50 to a 100 aircraft with this capability, will be a big setback for the opponent.

An aircraft by itself is something---but truthfully it is nothing in itself in this day and age---it is the complimentary package that it carries that sets it apart.

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## SBD-3

The days of falcon are not over!


> SINGAPORE, Feb. 15, 2012 &#8211; Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] unveiled a new version of the F-16 today at the Singapore Airshow. The F-16V will feature enhancements including an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, an upgraded mission computer and architecture, and improvements to the cockpit &#8211; all capabilities identified by the U.S. Air Force and several international customers for future improvements.
> 
> With nearly 4,500 F-16s delivered, this is a natural step in the evolution of the world&#8217;s most successful 4th generation fighter. The Fighting Falcon program has continually evolved as it began with the F-16 A/B as the lightweight fighter then transitioned to F-16 C/D and Block 60 versions as customers&#8217; requirements changed.
> 
> AESA radars offer significant operational capability improvements. Lockheed Martin has developed an innovative solution to affordably retrofit this key technology into existing F-16s. The F-16V configuration is an option for new production jets and elements of the upgrade are available to most earlier-model F-16s. The &#8220;V&#8221; designation is derived from Viper, the name fighter pilots have called the F-16 from its beginnings.
> 
> &#8220;We believe this F-16V will satisfy our customers&#8217; emerging requirements and *prepare them to better interoperate with the 5th generation fighters, the F-35 and F-22,&#8221; *said George Standridge, Lockheed Martin Aeronautics&#8217; vice president of business development.
> 
> The F-16 is the choice of 26 nations. The F-16 program has been characterized by unprecedented international cooperation among governments, air forces and aerospace industries.
> 
> Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin is a global security company that employs about 123,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products and services. The Corporation's net sales for 2011 were $46.5 billion.


Lockheed Martin · Lockheed Martin?s Fighting Falcon Evolves With New F-16V

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## nafsiati

Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] unveiled a new version of the F-16 today at the Singapore Airshow. The F-16V will feature enhancements including an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, an upgraded mission computer and architecture, and improvements to the cockpit  all capabilities identified by the U.S. Air Force and several international customers for future improvements.
With nearly 4,500 F-16s delivered, this is a natural step in the evolution of the worlds most successful 4th generation fighter. The Fighting Falcon program has continually evolved as it began with the F-16 A/B as the lightweight fighter then transitioned to F-16 C/D and Block 60 versions as customers requirements changed.
AESA radars offer significant operational capability improvements. Lockheed Martin has developed an innovative solution to affordably retrofit this key technology into existing F-16s. The F-16V configuration is an option for new production jets and elements of the upgrade are available to most earlier-model F-16s. The V designation is derived from Viper, the name fighter pilots have called the F-16 from its beginnings.
We believe this F-16V will satisfy our customers emerging requirements and prepare them to better interoperate with the 5th generation fighters, the F-35 and F-22, said George Standridge, Lockheed Martin Aeronautics vice president of business development.
The F-16 is the choice of 26 nations. The F-16 program has been characterized by unprecedented international cooperation among governments, air forces and aerospace industries.
Headquartered in Bethesda, Md., Lockheed Martin is a global security company that employs about 123,000 people worldwide and is principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacture, integration and sustainment of advanced technology systems, products and services. The Corporation's net sales for 2011 were $46.5 billion.


Read more: http:/http://www.sacbee.com/2012/02/15/4265773/lockheed-martins-fighting-falcon.html


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## unicorn

Oscar said:


> Lol.. I was looking at something else.. did not even notice the Sniper.
> I though Wj was referring to the small protrusion under the radome.


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## proindian

PAF more capable to defend motherland after induction of F-16, AVACS &#8211; Air Chief
February 14, 2012
By Kashif Munir


Jacobabad - Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman said on Monday that with the induction of F-16 (Block 52) fighter jets and AVACS surveillance aircraft in its fleet, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was now more capable to counter any external aggression against the territorial integrity of the country.

&#8220;*We have received the last batch of 18 F-16 (Block 52) jets *which have better technical and operational capabilities as compared to our neighbouring air force,&#8221; he said while talking to journalists on the occasion of completion of delivery of F-16 (Block-52) and upgradation of Shahbaz Airbase.

*He said that the 14 F-16 (Block 15) fighter aircrafts had arrived from the United States after complete overhauling*. Rao Qamar Suleman said that the PAF had also acquired one AVACS, out of four aircraft, from China which had enhanced its air surveillance capability.

Under a Mid-Life Upgradation (MLU) agreement, Turkey would upgrade 45 F-16 old version aircraft to the level of F-16 (Block 52) by equipping them with modern avionics and radar systems till 2013.

About upgradation of Shahbaz Airbase, he said that the airbase was fully under the PAF command and control and the reports regarding presence of foreign air force were baseless.

&#8220;Some US trainers are imparting training to our pilots and engineering staff under PAF command and control system&#8221;, he added.

The PAF Chief said that it was first in the history of the country that the Chief of Army Staff (COAS) and the Chief of Air Staff (CAS) together flew in the fighter aircraft.

Responding to a question regarding air defence cooperation with Russia, he said that it would take at least two years to purchase any particular aircraft from Russia.

Pakistan, he said, was also manufacturing Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) simply known as Drone aircraft but they were not capable to fire missiles or rockets. &#8220;We will be able to manufacture UAVs which can have weapon firing capability.&#8221;

When his attention was drawn about Indian preparations and purchase of heavy weapons, he said that the PAF was ready to meet challenges and thwart any aggression.

Responding to a question about the US operation in Abbottabad, he said, &#8220;The US and allied forces were our partners in war against terrorism and we could not imagine that they would violate our airspace.&#8221;

Earlier, briefing a group of journalists who flew from Islamabad to attend the ceremony, Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations) Air Marshal Waseem Uddin said the PAF cooperation with the US was still continuing.

About the PAF&#8217;s participation in war on terror, he said that the PAF was not conducting operations at its own rather it provided support to the army in Swat and Bajour operations.

He said that the Shahbaz Airbase was upgraded in record two-year time.

Air Marshal Waseem Uddin expressed the confidence that F-16 (Block 52) aircraft would bring a lot of stability in the region and shift the balance of air power in Pakistan&#8217;s balance.

To another query, he said that several countries had shown interest in Pakistan JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft as &#8220;this aircraft is cost effective and capable of all manoeuvres&#8221;.

Regarding professional capability of Pakistani pilots, he said, &#8220;We should be proud of the capability of our pilots as the entire world is appreciative of their skills.&#8221;

About refueling of F-16 in mid air, he said the PAF was evaluating a possibility to acquire this technology.

He said that the PAF plans were ready to counter Indian war doctrines and it would not let the nation down in this regard.

To a question, he said that Shahbaz Airbase remained under use of the NATO forces from 2002 to 2004. However, it was got vacated from the NATO forces by the government in 2004.

Meanwhile, Chief of Army Staff Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani and Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman reviewed a F-16 (Block 52) aircraft and went to its cockpit.

They were briefed by PAF pilots and other officials regarding functions and technical and operational capabilities of F-16 (Block 52) aircraft. Both the chiefs also had 45-minute flight on two separate F-16 (Block 52) aircraft.

The journalists were also taken around different installations and facilities at the PAF Shahbaz Airbase including the runway, tarmac, engineering and maintenance blocks, engine test cells, weapons stores, residential area and base headquarters building.

A PAF official briefed the journalists that all the Pakistani resources, including workforce and firms, were employed to upgrade the airbase which had all the facilities of a frontline airbase.

About security of the airbase, he said that all internal and external security measures had been taken for safety and protection of all the assets and facilities.

Earlier, welcoming the journalists, Director General, ATSC, Air Vice Marshal Ashfaq Arayen briefed them about the reconstruction and development of Shahbaz Airbase into a modern airbase.

He said that 4,000 skilled and unskilled local people had been recruited by the PAF at the airbase.(APP)

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## soul hacker

IMP NOTES OF PARA



proindian said:


> PAF more capable to defend motherland after induction of F-16, AVACS  Air Chief
> February 14, 2012
> By Kashif Munir
> 
> 
> Jacobabad - Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman said on Monday that with the induction of F-16 (Block 52) fighter jets and AVACS surveillance aircraft in its fleet, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was now more capable to counter any external aggression against the territorial integrity of the country.
> 
> *We have received the last batch of 18 F-16 (Block 52) jets *which have better technical and operational capabilities as compared to our neighbouring air force, he said while talking to journalists on the occasion of completion of delivery of F-16 (Block-52) and upgradation of Shahbaz Airbase.
> 
> *He said that the 14 F-16 (Block 15) fighter aircrafts had arrived from the United States after complete overhauling*. Rao Qamar Suleman said that the PAF had also acquired one AVACS, out of four aircraft, from China which had enhanced its air surveillance capability.
> 
> Under a Mid-Life Upgradation (MLU) agreement, Turkey would upgrade 45 F-16 old version aircraft to the level of F-16 (Block 52) by equipping them with modern avionics and radar systems till 2013.
> 
> About upgradation of Shahbaz Airbase, he said that the airbase was fully under the PAF command and control and the reports regarding presence of foreign air force were baseless.
> 
> Some US trainers are imparting training to our pilots and engineering staff under PAF command and control system, he added.
> 
> The PAF Chief said that it was first in the history of the country that the Chief of Army Staff (COAS) and the Chief of Air Staff (CAS) together flew in the fighter aircraft.
> 
> Responding to a question regarding air defence cooperation with Russia, he said that it would take at least two years to purchase any particular aircraft from Russia.
> 
> Pakistan, he said, was also manufacturing Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs) simply known as Drone aircraft but they were not capable to fire missiles or rockets. We will be able to manufacture UAVs which can have weapon firing capability.
> 
> When his attention was drawn about Indian preparations and purchase of heavy weapons, he said that the PAF was ready to meet challenges and thwart any aggression.
> 
> Responding to a question about the US operation in Abbottabad, he said, The US and allied forces were our partners in war against terrorism and we could not imagine that they would violate our airspace.
> 
> Earlier, briefing a group of journalists who flew from Islamabad to attend the ceremony, Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations) Air Marshal Waseem Uddin said the PAF cooperation with the US was still continuing.
> 
> About the PAFs participation in war on terror, he said that the PAF was not conducting operations at its own rather it provided support to the army in Swat and Bajour operations.
> 
> He said that the Shahbaz Airbase was upgraded in record two-year time.
> 
> Air Marshal Waseem Uddin expressed the confidence that F-16 (Block 52) aircraft would bring a lot of stability in the region and shift the balance of air power in Pakistans balance.
> 
> To another query, he said that several countries had shown interest in Pakistan JF-17 Thunder fighter aircraft as this aircraft is cost effective and capable of all manoeuvres.
> 
> Regarding professional capability of Pakistani pilots, he said, We should be proud of the capability of our pilots as the entire world is appreciative of their skills.
> 
> 
> About refueling of F-16 in mid air, he said the PAF was evaluating a possibility to acquire this technology.
> 
> He said that the PAF plans were ready to counter Indian war doctrines and it would not let the nation down in this regard.
> 
> To a question, he said that Shahbaz Airbase remained under use of the NATO forces from 2002 to 2004. However, it was got vacated from the NATO forces by the government in 2004.
> 
> Meanwhile, Chief of Army Staff Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani and Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman reviewed a F-16 (Block 52) aircraft and went to its cockpit.
> 
> They were briefed by PAF pilots and other officials regarding functions and technical and operational capabilities of F-16 (Block 52) aircraft. Both the chiefs also had 45-minute flight on two separate F-16 (Block 52) aircraft.
> 
> The journalists were also taken around different installations and facilities at the PAF Shahbaz Airbase including the runway, tarmac, engineering and maintenance blocks, engine test cells, weapons stores, residential area and base headquarters building.
> 
> A PAF official briefed the journalists that all the Pakistani resources, including workforce and firms, were employed to upgrade the airbase which had all the facilities of a frontline airbase.
> 
> About security of the airbase, he said that all internal and external security measures had been taken for safety and protection of all the assets and facilities.
> 
> Earlier, welcoming the journalists, Director General, ATSC, Air Vice Marshal Ashfaq Arayen briefed them about the reconstruction and development of Shahbaz Airbase into a modern airbase.
> 
> He said that 4,000 skilled and unskilled local people had been recruited by the PAF at the airbase.(APP)


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## Najam Khan

proindian said:


> PAF more capable to defend motherland after induction of F-16, AVACS &#8211; Air Chief
> February 14, 2012
> By Kashif Munir
> &#8220;*We have received the last batch of 18 F-16 (Block 52) jets *which have better technical and operational capabilities as compared to our neighbouring air force,&#8221; he said while talking to journalists on the occasion of completion of delivery of F-16 (Block-52) and upgradation of Shahbaz Airbase.


That means 18 aircraft received under the Peace Drive-I.



proindian said:


> *He said that the 14 F-16 (Block 15) fighter aircrafts had arrived from the United States after complete overhauling*. Rao Qamar Suleman said that the PAF had also acquired one AVACS, out of four aircraft, from China which had enhanced its air surveillance capability.


These 14 aircraft have been recieved from Dec 2005 to Jul 2008.



proindian said:


> About refueling of F-16 in mid air, he said the PAF was evaluating a possibility to acquire this technology.


It was evaluated in 2007/2008 but the decision was made in favour of IL-78, which can refuel Mirage JF-17 and FC-20(in near future). The bk52s with CFTs solved the range and endurance problem too.


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## Last Hope

> He said that _4,000 skilled and unskilled local people_ had been recruited by the PAF at the airbase.(APP)



What? What for? This is disturbing.


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## SQ8

Last Hope said:


> What? What for? This is disturbing.



How is it disturbing? 
The base needed labour for its renovation and these people were employed for it...and it is a large base.
Basic people to lift bricks.. mortar... carpenters.. truck drivers.. diggers. etc
Then some structural engineers .. etc.
How is it even remotely disturbing?


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## Last Hope

Oscar said:


> How is it disturbing?
> The base needed labour for its renovation and these people were employed for it...and it is a large base.
> Basic people to lift bricks.. mortar... carpenters.. truck drivers.. diggers. etc
> Then some structural engineers .. etc.
> How is it even remotely disturbing?



Oscar, I thought of that. But 4,000 in number seems quite large. And as they are locals, skilled and unskilled as the news claims, many of them would be surely living on small wages. No to mention that Shahbaz is now the most important airbase, and _'outsiders'_ could bribe them to get any work done, including getting information. 

You're a smart man and I hope you are getting what I mean. After all, 4,000 is a large number to look after.


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## proindian

F-16s: Mending Strained Ties
February 8, 2012
By Shumaila Raja
Exclusive Article

In a fresh sign of thaw in the Pak-US strained relations, the US delivered three F-16 aircraft to Pakistan, which included a new fighter plane and two that were returned after being refurbished. One F-16 D Block 52 and two F-16 Block 15 MLU (Mid Life Upgrade) aircraft arrived at PAF Shahbaz Base. The arrival of last F-16 D Block 52 aircraft marked the completion of delivery of 18 aircraft of this category. According to the PAF spokesman, &#8220;the other two F-16 Block 15 aircraft, which arrived on Feb 6, were earlier sent to USA for Mid Life Upgrade and have been delivered to PAF on time.&#8221;
The F-16 C/D Block 52 aircraft is a high-tech fighter aircraft equipped with state-of-the-art avionics suite and latest weapons with Night Precision Attack capability.
Reportedly the US has also been working with the PAF to modernize 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the US foreign military financing security assistance program. This would obviously help ease the already existing serious tension between the two countries in the wake of NATO airstrikes on Pakistan&#8217;s Salala border posts in Mohmand Agency on November 26 last year. The delivery of three F-16s reflects clear signs of thaw in relations as it seems the two sides have covered major ground in their behind-the-scene talks through military and diplomatic channels and both of them were now on the verge of settlement of contentious issues like the blocking of NATO supplies, drone strikes and presence of US military trainers in Pakistan.
According to a background detail, the US in the 1990s sold a number of F-16s (Fighting Falcons) to Pakistan for about $463 millions. But Pakistan never received them due to the Pressler amendment. The planes were never delivered. The amount refunded was $140 million less than the amount paid by Pakistan. Part of it was considered &#8220;service charges&#8221; by the supplying company. *Now the US has sold 18 new and 26 old F-16s to Pakistan at a total cost of about $3 billion*. It also upgrade about 34 old F-16s that Pakistan already had. Lockheed Martin, the builder of F-16s and other principal contractors like Boeing CO., Raytheon Co., Northrop-Grumman Corp., and General Electric Corp. were the main beneficiaries of the deal. The US may be hoping that this sale might help Pakistan to democratize and modernize and make it a better neighbor to India and transform the Pak-India relationship into something mutually constructive, yet it has also been in the air that Pakistan has been made agreed to that it would not use the warplanes against India. This also helps assume that the US is willing to understand Pakistan&#8217;s security concerns with regard to its ability to continue with the war against terrorism.
Besides, the US had sought unusual guarantees to prevent the technology of these very advance planes from falling into the hands of countries such as China with whom Pakistan has good military relationship. The Russian MiG-29s that India has and started mass-producing them soon is equally advanced and in some respects supposed to be even better. Analysts believe that the US has been withholding unspecified F-16 technologies so that it could not be used in any &#8220;offensive&#8221; way to penetrate air space of another country. Pakistan&#8217;s F-16 fleet and munitions would be segregated from aircraft supplied by other countries so that third country or unauthorized engineers could not get access to the planes. US personnel would carry out inventories and their associated systems every six months. They question that Pakistan&#8217;s known &#8220;enemy&#8221; is India and if the planes cannot be used against them in times of war then what is the use of buying them? Also, India is vastly superior to Pakistan in military numbers. What would a handful of F-16s do in the case of a prolonged war if, God forbid, it ever happens?
Frank Jack Daniel&#8217;s article &#8220;India&#8217;s military build-up may be too little too late?&#8221; published on Feb 4 clearly refers to India&#8217;s threats and defence priorities shifted from Pakistan to China. India&#8217;s is the world&#8217;s largest arms importer with plans to spend $100 billion on weapons over the next decade. &#8220;The Indian military is strengthening its forces in preparation to fight a limited conflict along the disputed border, and is working to balance Chinese power projection in the Indian Ocean,&#8221; US Director of National Intelligence James R Clapper told the US Senate last week. The &#8220;balance&#8221; includes a strategic alliance with Washington that in turn has stoked Chinese fears of containment. It is due to test-fire its nuclear capable Agni V rocket in the next few weeks, with a strike range reaching deep into China. In 2009, the Indian air force reopened a high-altitude, landing strip in Ladakh last used during a 1962 border war with China.
Along with other Himalayan bases, India is now upgrading the strip for fighter operations. India&#8217;s military modernization plans are focused on the navy and air force, more than the army, which has traditionally squared off with Pakistan. But with Pakistan&#8217;s air force also modernizing fast, India risks losing its edge on two fronts. Last week&#8217;s exercises were being held on the Andaman Islands, where India is spending $2 billion to set up a military command and from where the contested and congested South China Seas is only a short hop away. Last year, India&#8217;s INS Airavat, an amphibious assault vessel that sailed from the Andamans was challenged in the South China Sea by a radio caller indentifying himself as an official of the Chinese navy. Both sides later played down the incident.
However, the notion that India is building up arms and ammunition that is China-specific seems to be wrong, because all the deployments India has made are not close to its China borders but near to Pakistani border areas. The war exercises and periodic drills which Indian military conducts is also usually near the Pakistan Rajesthan border. In the comparison, Pakistan, despite acquiring the F-16s, lags far behind India in terms of balance of power in the region. It is also interesting to note that the American air force has replaced its F-16 fleets with the high-tech F-18s.
The writer is a freelance columnist and a regular contributor to pkarticleshub.com


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## Edevelop

This is soooooooo confusing. Can anyone tell me how many F-16s we have in total? Is it 100? 80? 60? ?????????


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## Windjammer

*Some high class facilities have been put in place for the new Vipers. 
*






*SHAHBAZ AIR BASE JACOBABAD*

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## Last Hope

cb4 said:


> This is soooooooo confusing. Can anyone tell me how many F-16s we have in total? Is it 100? 80? 60? ?????????



Do you know did PAF start to hide the serial? To keep the total number of Vipers classified. 
A hint. There are more F-16s serving PAF than we know.

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## Edevelop




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## soul hacker

Iftikhar_ul_Haq said:


> F-16s are getting outdated day by day....Pakistan should beg modern fighter jets now



&#1578;&#1585;&#1581;&#1610;&#1576;&#1603;&#1605; .


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## ziaulislam

cb4 said:


> This is soooooooo confusing. Can anyone tell me how many F-16s we have in total? Is it 100? 80? 60? ?????????



63 as of now (including the ones in various places for upgrades)

there are unconfirmed reports that we may get 14 more soon from EDA


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## soul hacker

This is not PSed neither edited,Taken at Singapore air show

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## SQ8

Thank the Americans for building up jacobabad.. what was a barren desert FoB is now a full fledged MoB thanks to its ex-American tenants.
The same is with Shamsi..it can now serve as an alternate base.

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## soul hacker

here is the video enjoy


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## mirage 5000

Iftikhar_ul_Haq said:


> F-16s are getting outdated day by day....Pakistan should *beg* modern fighter jets now


 

when did we beg f-16 last time dude? we pay billions for them FYI

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## untitled

Iftikhar_ul_Haq said:


> F-16s are getting outdated day by day....Pakistan should beg modern fighter jets now





mirage 5000 said:


> when did we beg f-16 last time dude? we pay billions for them FYI



I think he meant _begin (purchasing)_


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## AbhimanyuShrivastav

Last Hope said:


> Do you know did PAF start to hide the serial? To keep the total number of Vipers classified.
> A hint. There are more F-16s serving PAF than we know.



Ah! an eternal optimist.. 

For all you know it might be to hide exactly the opposite...


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## DANGER-ZONE

Last Hope said:


> *Do you know did PAF start to hide the serial*? To keep the total number of Vipers classified.
> *A hint. There are more F-16s serving PAF than we know*.



Bhai jan, this is with PAFwallpapers only. 
PAF is not hiding any serial No.s as whole inventory is available publicly with pictures and details of service, attached, at F-16.net. All videos regarding new Block-52's and pictures published in news were showing All clear Sr. No.s.
So Please don't create any myth.
Regards


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## Last Hope

danger-zone said:


> Bhai jan, this is with PAFwallpapers only.
> PAF is not hiding any serial No.s as whole inventory is available publicly with pictures and details of service, attached, at F-16.net. All videos regarding new Block-52's and pictures published in news were showing All clear Sr. No.s.
> So Please don't create any myth.
> Regards



Dangerzone.

I assume you know why they hid the serial number? That was done after Air Chief said that. I personally know the serial numbers, and have got pictures of Falcons with the serial numbers too. And I am not creating any myth, contact any senior in the Air Force or on the forum to know about it.


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## proindian

Last Hope said:


> Do you know did PAF start to hide the serial? To keep the total number of Vipers classified.
> A hint. *There are more F-16s serving PAF than we know*.


how many bro


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## Last Hope

proindian said:


> how many bro



Pakistan Air Force owns around 100 F-16s. But currently how many are serving, isn't disclosed.


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## proindian

Last Hope said:


> Pakistan Air Force owns around 100 F-16s. But currently how many are serving, isn't disclosed.


kisi saya pata lagao na bhaijan


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## Last Hope

proindian said:


> kisi saya pata lagao na bhaijan



Let's not get too frank on the forum. I know a range of numbers, of how many are serving but I cannot disclose.


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## SQ8

Last Hope said:


> Pakistan Air Force owns around 100 F-16s. But currently how many are serving, isn't disclosed.



Not 100.. 
consider that many are now abroad or in the process of being sent for MLU's. 
actualy numbers may vary from 40-50 at any time till MLU is complete.
Then it will be around 70+.

---------- Post added at 11:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 AM ----------




Last Hope said:


> Let's not get too frank on the forum. I know a range of numbers, of how many are serving but I cannot disclose.



Something however.. are fairly open.
American items have very detailed serial numbers and records.. hard to hide or spoof.
for eg.. these are all the Block-52s Pakistan has
http://f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/aircraft-assignments-active/unit/PAF%205%20sqn/


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## Last Hope

Oscar said:


> Not 100..
> consider that many are now abroad or in the process of being sent for MLU's.
> actualy numbers may vary from 40-50 at any time till MLU is complete.
> Then it will be around 70+.



Oscar.

I precisely wrote _'owns'_ not '_operates'_.
Hope you get the difference.


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## proindian

Last Hope said:


> *Let's not get too frank on the forum*. I know a range of numbers, of how many are serving but I cannot disclose.


wah wah


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## VelocuR

Okay....

Tell me what's so important if we reach 100+ numbers of F-16s? We are still far behind, many countries- Egypt, Turkey, Israel has more than 200 numbers. 

I think, 60-75 are good enough to save the country from the raids....It means, our pilots will have to work harder protecting us despite small numbers of F-16s.


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## [--Leo--]

cb4 said:


> This is soooooooo confusing. Can anyone tell me how many F-16s we have in total? Is it 100? 80? 60? ?????????



45 Block 15 Which will be upgraded soon
14 Block 15 We receive on 13-02-2012 2nd hand overhauled 
18 Block 52+ we receive all of them on 06-02-12

Total F-16 = 77

Might be some chance of getting more 18 F-16 Block 52+ soon


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## mirage 5000

Last Hope said:


> Pakistan Air Force owns around 100 F-16s. But currently how many are serving, isn't disclosed.




not at all its something you just create we have announced numbers we have cermoney at every batch and our numbers are open as its not a secret at all .

from where 100 reached? 9 of them crashed and we know them well .


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## mirage 5000

[--Leo--];2605512 said:


> 45 Block 15 Which will be upgraded soon
> 14 Block 15 We receive on 13-02-2012 2nd hand overhauled
> 18 Block 52+ we receive all of them on 06-02-12
> 
> Total F-16 = 77
> 
> Might be some chance of getting more 18 F-16 Block 52+ soon



wrong again we get total 40 in peace gate 1 and peace gate 2

1983 peae gate-1 we get 2 f-16a and 4 f-16B

letter we get from 1983 to 1987 peace gate-2 we get 26 f-16A and 8 f-16B

SO total was 40 that time but then

8 of them got crashed we have left ? 32 

14 we get embargoed so we have ? 46 at 2007 but then f-16 crashed # 92729 and it was F-16A Block 15AQ OCU pilot Squadron Leader Saud Ghulam Nabi, was sadly killed 

so at 2009 we have 45

after we get 18 new we have ? total 63 

enjoy* if* we got 14 more from USN and if we got 18 new then we have this dream come true

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## farhan_9909

[--Leo--];2605512 said:


> 45 Block 15 Which will be upgraded soon
> 14 Block 15 We receive on 13-02-2012 2nd hand overhauled
> 18 Block 52+ we receive all of them on 06-02-12
> 
> Total F-16 = 77
> 
> Might be some chance of getting more 18 F-16 Block 52+ soon



those 14 are nt received yet
and option for more 18 f-16 is on table
making total 95


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## mirage 5000

farhan_9909 said:


> those 14 are nt received yet
> and option for more 18 f-16 is on table
> making total 95



we even never sign MOU for them these are just news first sign and then stay in wait of delivery at least sir before claim them 95 .


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## Peaceful Civilian

I think Pakistan should also go for Optional 18 F16s. Pak pilots have good hands on F16. Pak should continue for the policy of minimum deterrence.


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## mirage 5000

Peaceful Civlian said:


> I think Pakistan should also go for Optional 18 F16s. Pak pilots have good hands on F16. Pak should continue for the policy of minimum deterrence.



pay now and get in 2015 not good idea at all get more fc-20 better

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## Bratva

Last Hope said:


> ]Do you know did PAF start to hide the serial? To keep the total number of Vipers classified[/B].
> A hint. There are more F-16s serving PAF than we know.



You have a old habit (or fetish) of first disclosing the "chat pata" rumor and then hiding behind the yada yada sources and do some research even before disclosing your "super duper" news's.


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## Nishan_101

Although if the F-16s were quite useful for PAF then buying these planes in 2003 were much better and getting 50 Block-52s(25Cs and 25Ds) along with the 14 Block-15s were good. If we contract with U.S that they are going to provide 14+14 Block-15s along with the new ones in time with future parts supply without any sanctions then it will really boost the PAF and we may be able to upgrade these 59 Block-52 in Turkey from 2003 to 2010. Buying the new F-16s in 2003 would mean that the cost per plane would be $45 million per plane which makes the contract of the new planes to:$45 millionx50=$2.250 Billion or $2250 Million. Can you tell me the cost of the upgradation of the Block-15s in 2003?


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## fatman17

mafiya said:


> You have a old habit (or fetish) of first disclosing the "chat pata" rumor and then hiding behind the yada yada sources and do some research even before disclosing your "super duper" news's.



when a/c are transferred new or upgraded, due to international rules, the serial no. of the supplying country is used and the original serial no. of the owner co as well as the flag etc are covered / taped up. there are no 'hidden' or 'ghost' F-16's flying around

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## Najam Khan

Last Hope said:


> Do you know did PAF start to hide the serial? To keep the total number of Vipers classified.
> A hint.* There are more F-16s serving PAF than we know. *





Last Hope said:


> Dangerzone.
> 
> I assume you know why they hid the serial number? *That was done after Air Chief said that.* I personally know the serial numbers, and have got pictures of Falcons with the serial numbers too. And I am not creating any myth, contact any senior in the Air Force or on the forum to know about it.



Please don't speculate. This is just the website policy because of the sensitivity of these pics. Serials aren't the only thing erased in them, there are 5/6 others things too. Most of the background detail is either removed or cropped too.

And as sir Fatman has said, there are no 'ghost' F-16's...so stop spreading this BS.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Addition of 70 F16 from Norway would be a great short term addition to Pakistan Airforce 
If we can get these fighters from Norway with* 5-8 Million range */ plane 

Also Pakistan should look into Transfering some technology knowledge from USA to Pakistan on these fighters


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## Edevelop

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Addition of *70 F16 from Norway* would be a great short term addition to Pakistan Airforce
> If we can get these fighters from Norway with* 5-8 Million range */ plane
> 
> Also Pakistan should look into Transfering some technology knowledge from USA to Pakistan on these fighters



Buying old F-16s from many different countries sort of reminds me how we increased the number of Mirage iii/v in our inventory...

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## ziaulislam

an old f-16 would cost at least 30-40 million to bring at the level enough to service for next 20 years..i dont think so we can get them for 6-8 million


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## Edevelop

JF-17 is better than F-16 Block 15 and 30. In fact, if we produce JF-17 at a cost of 15 million, we are looking to create jobs and experience in our aerospace sector. This is the pro side.

The reason why we are buying more F-16s is because of India's psychological problem. Indians generally have a bad perception about JF-17, and according to them, F-16 is a game changer. They express their concerns in the media...

Look at the first and last comparison they make lol:






We have seen this before:


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## SamranAli

we should invest in R& D instead buying old improve JFT.

---------- Post added at 10:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 AM ----------

that will increase our self independency.

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## araz

ziaulislam said:


> an old f-16 would cost at least 30-40 million to bring at the level enough to service for next 20 years..i dont think so we can get them for 6-8 million



Some of the norwegian F16s are already MLued. As such *provided the air frame has life left in it* and we get them for 15-20 million , it would be a good buy.
Araz


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## fatman17

araz said:


> Some of the norwegian F16s are already MLued. As such *provided the air frame has life left in it* and we get them for 15-20 million , it would be a good buy.
> Araz



that is the problem and the wet environment they exist under.

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## SBD-3

fatman17 said:


> that is the problem and the wet environment they exist under.


Not only the wet environment but also the saltish-air that engine intakes since most of the flight time is over sea. I was looking at the pictures of an East-European operator's F-16 fleet and I could see how ill-maintained they were, even though being block 30/40


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## Nishan_101

Although if the F-16s were quite useful for PAF then buying these planes in 2003 were much better and getting 50 Block-52s(25Cs and 25Ds) along with the 14 Block-15s were good. If we contract with U.S that they are going to provide 14+14 Block-15s along with the new ones in time with future parts supply without any sanctions then it will really boost the PAF and we may be able to upgrade these 59 Block-52 in Turkey from 2003 to 2010. Buying the new F-16s in 2003 would mean that the cost per plane would be $45 million per plane which makes the contract of the new planes to:$45 millionx50=$2.250 Billion or $2250 Million. Can you tell me the cost of the upgradation of the Block-15s in 2003? So do you think I am right.


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## fatman17

Boosting air defence: F-16s replace Americans at Jacobabad airbase


*Newly revamp*ed airbas*e to house close to three dozen aircra*ft. *

By Zahid Gishkori

Published: February 19, 2012


ISLAMABAD: 
The Pakistan Air Force (PAF), in a significant move, has equipped the newly renovated Jacobabad airbase with close to three dozen F-16s, including the advanced Block 52+ version of the aircraft.

Pakistan has spent over $3.75 billion on both the revamping of Jacobabad airbase and the acquisition of new planes, officials told The Express Tribune. The air force is in a better position to encounter any threats after acquiring the new F-16s which are capable of carrying nuclear weapons, they added.

Defence analyst Lt General (retd) Talat Masood said this was a significant development especially as it had come months after the Americans had quit the airbase. Masood, however, warned of a shift in the strategic balance of the region, saying &#8220;India&#8217;s new aircraft deal with France would leave Pakistan far behind&#8221;. For all intents and purposes, he said, Pakistan should continue its cooperation with the US to enhance its defence capability. &#8220;Pakistan and the US are reciprocal when it comes to regional stability in South Asia,&#8221; he added.

India is all set to reach an agreement with France over the purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) costing over $12 billion, making it the largest international defence deal by value in recent years, according to Indian media. Chief of Air Staff Rao Qamar Suleman and Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani had formally announced the completion of Jacobabad Airbase on February 12. The Chief of Air Staff said that all American personnel, including the Training Support Team for the new F-16s, have left after training PAF pilots and other technical staff.

&#8220;The new F-16 Block 52 fleet will pave the way for establishing the balance of power in the region,&#8221; said General Kayani.

&#8220;This airbase is now the largest platform for modern aircraft capable of carrying nuclear weapons,&#8221; a senior PAF official told The Express Tribune. &#8220;It&#8217;s an outcome of years long cooperation between Pakistan and the US.&#8221;

Pakistan had purchased 18 new F-16 Block 52+ aircraft, while 14 used F-16s were supplied free of charge by the US. The US Training Support Team consisted of over 200 personnel, including staff to train PAF personnel on making the aircraft operational. PAF has also recruited over 4, 000 employees for the newly renovated strategic airbase which is located close to the western frontier bordering both Iran and Afghanistan.

Published in The Express Tribune, February 19th, 2012.

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## soul hacker

THE MOST IMPORTANT



fatman17 said:


> Boosting air defence: F-16s replace Americans at Jacobabad airbase
> 
> 
> *Newly revamp*ed airbas*e to house close to three dozen aircra*ft. *
> 
> By Zahid Gishkori
> 
> Published: February 19, 2012
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD:
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF), in a significant move, has equipped the newly renovated Jacobabad airbase with close to three dozen F-16s, including the advanced Block 52+ version of the aircraft.
> 
> Pakistan has spent over $3.75 billion on both the revamping of Jacobabad airbase and the acquisition of new planes, officials told The Express Tribune. The air force is in a better position to encounter any threats after acquiring the new F-16s which are capable of carrying nuclear weapons, they added.
> 
> Defence analyst Lt General (retd) Talat Masood said this was a significant development especially as it had come months after the Americans had quit the airbase. Masood, however, warned of a shift in the strategic balance of the region, saying &#8220;India&#8217;s new aircraft deal with France would leave Pakistan far behind&#8221;. For all intents and purposes, he said, Pakistan should continue its cooperation with the US to enhance its defence capability. &#8220;Pakistan and the US are reciprocal when it comes to regional stability in South Asia,&#8221; he added.
> 
> India is all set to reach an agreement with France over the purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) costing over $12 billion, making it the largest international defence deal by value in recent years, according to Indian media. Chief of Air Staff Rao Qamar Suleman and Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani had formally announced the completion of Jacobabad Airbase on February 12. The Chief of Air Staff said that all American personnel, including the Training Support Team for the new F-16s, have left after training PAF pilots and other technical staff.
> 
> &#8220;The new F-16 Block 52 fleet will pave the way for establishing the balance of power in the region,&#8221; said General Kayani.
> 
> &#8220;This airbase is now the largest platform for modern aircraft capable of carrying nuclear weapons,&#8221; a senior PAF official told The Express Tribune. &#8220;It&#8217;s an outcome of years long cooperation between Pakistan and the US.&#8221;
> 
> Pakistan had purchased 18 new F-16 Block 52+ aircraft, while 14 used F-16s were supplied free of charge by the US. The US Training Support Team consisted of over 200 personnel, including staff to train PAF personnel on making the aircraft operational. PAF has also recruited over 4, 000 employees for the newly renovated strategic airbase which is located close to the western frontier bordering both Iran and Afghanistan.
> 
> Published in The Express Tribune, February 19th, 2012.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

If we are not to buy the Norway F16 7-15 Million per plane , the only other alternative would be to use that money and invest it in 

a) Avionics 
b) SAM
c) Training Simulators or plane engines


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## soul hacker

PAF - F-16 SIMULATR

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## dexter



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## White Lightning

*Pakistan - Upgrade set for F-16C simulators*





Two Pakistan air force F-16C Fighting Falcon training simulators are to be modernized with SimuSphere HD-9 visual system displays from L-3 Link Simulation & Training of Texas.

The contract, a modification to an existing award, was given to L-3 Link by the U.S. Air Force.


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> Boosting air defence: F-16s replace Americans at Jacobabad airbase
> 
> 
> *Newly revamp*ed airbas*e to house close to three dozen aircra*ft. *
> 
> By Zahid Gishkori
> 
> Published: February 19, 2012
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD:
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF), in a significant move, has equipped the newly renovated Jacobabad airbase with close to three dozen F-16s, including the advanced Block 52+ version of the aircraft.
> 
> Pakistan has spent over $3.75 billion on both the revamping of Jacobabad airbase and the acquisition of new planes, officials told The Express Tribune. The air force is in a better position to encounter any threats after acquiring the new F-16s which are capable of carrying nuclear weapons, they added.
> 
> Defence analyst Lt General (retd) Talat Masood said this was a significant development especially as it had come months after the Americans had quit the airbase. Masood, however, warned of a shift in the strategic balance of the region, saying Indias new aircraft deal with France would leave Pakistan far behind. For all intents and purposes, he said, Pakistan should continue its cooperation with the US to enhance its defence capability. Pakistan and the US are reciprocal when it comes to regional stability in South Asia, he added.
> 
> India is all set to reach an agreement with France over the purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) costing over $12 billion, making it the largest international defence deal by value in recent years, according to Indian media. Chief of Air Staff Rao Qamar Suleman and Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani had formally announced the completion of Jacobabad Airbase on February 12. The Chief of Air Staff said that all American personnel, including the Training Support Team for the new F-16s, have left after training PAF pilots and other technical staff.
> 
> The new F-16 Block 52 fleet will pave the way for establishing the balance of power in the region, said General Kayani.
> 
> This airbase is now the largest platform for modern aircraft capable of carrying nuclear weapons, a senior PAF official told The Express Tribune. Its an outcome of years long cooperation between Pakistan and the US.
> 
> Pakistan had purchased 18 new F-16 Block 52+ aircraft, while 14 used F-16s were supplied free of charge by the US. The US Training Support Team consisted of over 200 personnel, including staff to train PAF personnel on making the aircraft operational. PAF has also recruited over 4, 000 employees for the newly renovated strategic airbase *which is located close to the western frontier bordering both Iran and Afghanistan.*
> 
> Published in The Express Tribune, February 19th, 2012.




Someone needs to learn Geography.......


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## Last Hope

*Pakistan Air Force is now operating 36 F-16 Block 52s.

Finally, took me great courage to hold this news in. I was informed of the order for 18 more F-16s a few months back, and now I have been confirmed that our new Vipers are serving PAF at 5th Squadron, Shahbaz Air Base, Jacobabad. 

Congrats. All new Falcons are equipped with CFTs. *

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Are you suggesting that the 18 new vipers are already present in Pakistan ? - that would be a big news


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## TOPGUN

Last Hope said:


> *Pakistan Air Force is now operating 36 F-16 Block 52s.
> 
> Finally, took me great courage to hold this news in. I was informed of the order for 18 more F-16s a few months back, and now I have been confirmed that our new Vipers are serving PAF at 5th Squadron, Shahbaz Air Base, Jacobabad.
> 
> Congrats. All new Falcons are equipped with CFTs. *



Bro any proof our any offical source? on the news if so awsome news.


----------



## proindian

PM briefed on F-16s delivery

Tuesday, 14 Feb 2012 4:48 pm

ISLAMABAD - Minister for Defence, Ch. Ahmad Mukhtar, called on Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani at Prime Minister&#8217;s House Tuesday and discussed overall political and security situation in the country.
The Minister for Defence apprised the Prime Minister about the delivery of F-16s Yesterday, *16 new and 14 upgraded *at Shahbaz Airbase which would considerably increase the defence capabilities of the Pakistan Air force.
The Minister for Defence commended the Prime Minister for appearing in the Supreme Court yesterday which clearly manifested his commitment to the rule of law, the due process of law and upholding the constitution.
The Prime Minister appreciated the Minister&#8217;s gesture adding that the Pakistan Peoples Party, which gave the constitution to Pakistan would also protect it considering it as a sacred duty.
https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2012/02/pm-briefed-on-f-16s-delivery/


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## Last Hope

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Are you suggesting that the 18 new vipers are already present in Pakistan ? - that would be a big news


Yes.


TOPGUN said:


> Bro any proof our any offical source? on the news if so awsome news.


TOPGUN.

This has been hinted many times by the Air Chief. 


fatman17 said:


> Boosting air defence: F-16s replace Americans at Jacobabad airbase
> 
> 
> *Newly revamp*ed airbas*e to house close to three dozen aircra*ft. *
> 
> By Zahid Gishkori
> 
> Published: February 19, 2012
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD:
> The Pakistan Air Force (PAF), in a significant move, has equipped the newly renovated Jacobabad airbase with close to three dozen F-16s, including the advanced Block 52+ version of the aircraft.
> 
> Pakistan has spent over $3.75 billion on both the revamping of Jacobabad airbase and the acquisition of new planes, officials told The Express Tribune. The air force is in a better position to encounter any threats after acquiring the new F-16s which are capable of carrying nuclear weapons, they added.
> 
> Defence analyst Lt General (retd) Talat Masood said this was a significant development especially as it had come months after the Americans had quit the airbase. Masood, however, warned of a shift in the strategic balance of the region, saying &#8220;India&#8217;s new aircraft deal with France would leave Pakistan far behind&#8221;. For all intents and purposes, he said, Pakistan should continue its cooperation with the US to enhance its defence capability. &#8220;Pakistan and the US are reciprocal when it comes to regional stability in South Asia,&#8221; he added.
> 
> India is all set to reach an agreement with France over the purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) costing over $12 billion, making it the largest international defence deal by value in recent years, according to Indian media. Chief of Air Staff Rao Qamar Suleman and Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani had formally announced the completion of Jacobabad Airbase on February 12. The Chief of Air Staff said that all American personnel, including the Training Support Team for the new F-16s, have left after training PAF pilots and other technical staff.
> 
> *&#8220;The new F-16 Block 52 fleet will pave the way for establishing the balance of power in the region,&#8221;* said General Kayani.
> 
> &#8220;This airbase is now the largest platform for modern aircraft capable of carrying nuclear weapons,&#8221; a senior PAF official told The Express Tribune. &#8220;It&#8217;s an outcome of years long cooperation between Pakistan and the US.&#8221;
> *
> Pakistan had purchased 18 new F-16 Block 52+ aircraft, while 14 used F-16s were supplied free of charge by the US. *The US Training Support Team consisted of over 200 personnel, including staff to train PAF personnel on making the aircraft operational. PAF has also recruited over 4, 000 employees for the newly renovated strategic airbase which is located close to the western frontier bordering both Iran and Afghanistan.
> 
> Published in The Express Tribune, February 19th, 2012.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well that would mean that 

Pakistan has 45 Block C/D MLU , fighters plus 32 F16 C/D grand total of 77 fighters 

Meanwhile India is doing paper work for Rafale ? That can't be right because we will also get 36 J10B soon 

Thats 100 Fighters

How come we did not had to pay a cent for these extra planes ?


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## ziaulislam

only 18 f-16s block 52 have arrived so far ..........end of story..........


however it would be a happy ending if we get 14 more from EDA...


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## Dazzler

soul hacker said:


> PAF - F-16 SIMULATR



no it is not, cockpit ergonomics remind me of an F-18 simulator. Also, note the aircraft in front.


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## Edevelop

among 18 f-16 blk 52, do we have more 1 seaters than 2 seaters? how much of each version??


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## Last Hope

soul hacker said:


> PAF - F-16 SIMULATR


 


nabil_05 said:


> no it is not, cockpit ergonomics remind me of an F-18 simulator. Also, note the aircraft in front.



F/A-18 D simulator. 
Here is a picture of F/A-18 D cockpit.


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## SQ8

I think there is a good possibility to move a F-16 sq(preferably the OCU) from Sargodha to Shahbaz and put a JF-17 one in its place(to be complemented by a FC-20 sq if the time comes)


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## BATMAN

Last Hope said:


> *Pakistan Air Force is now operating 36 F-16 Block 52s.
> 
> Finally, took me great courage to hold this news in. I was informed of the order for 18 more F-16s a few months back, and now I have been confirmed that our new Vipers are serving PAF at 5th Squadron, Shahbaz Air Base, Jacobabad.
> 
> Congrats. All new Falcons are equipped with CFTs. *


 
Wow... this is no news... this is big bang.

If true it means the order cancellation of second batch of 18 F-16 was a big drama.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Its safe to say that the planes are lock and loaded , and ready for action against any mis adventure boy I still can`t believe we got all these planes with out paying a cent ?

And all 77 are Nuclear capable fighters  badhazmi ho jai to take hajmula 

There must be a catch like we can't fly these more then half mac .5 or can't fly over certain altitude


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## Last Hope

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> *Its safe to say that the planes are lock and loaded , and ready for action against any mis adventure boy I still can`t believe we got all these planes with out paying a cent ?*



Everything that PAF has is paid for! Nothing came or comes free

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

But that is 30% of MRCA deal india signed 

When we account for 36 J10b that is 56 % ...of what India bought we already neutralized

When we add 50 emergency JF17 thunders probably arrived already for all we know - thats 98% of MRCA deal cancelled out

But its a good thing that India is MFN status - with Russia - Pakistan - China alliance on the way


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## TOPGUN

Awsome news if we now have 100 vipers...


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## Peaceful Civilian

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> :



Are these PAF F16s at one place???
Why keep All eggs in one basket??
I hope PAF shows these pictures for illusion on enemy and never shows correct place for F16 and other inventory


----------



## mirage 5000

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Are these PAF F16s at one place???
> Why keep All eggs in one basket??
> I hope PAF shows these pictures for illusion on enemy and never shows correct place for F16 and other inventory


 
nope dear
The photo, taken by Staff Sgt. Rasheen Douglas, shows an &#8220;elephant walk&#8221; formation of Falcons from the 8th and 419th Fighter Wings.

It&#8217;s the final part of an exercise designed to demonstrate the capability of the airmen at* Kunsan Air Base, South Korea*, &#8220;to quickly and safely prepare aircraft for a wartime mission.&#8221;

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## Najam Khan

Last Hope said:


> *Pakistan Air Force is now operating 36 F-16 Block 52s.
> 
> Finally, took me great courage to hold this news in. I was informed of the order for 18 more F-16s a few months back, and now I have been confirmed that our new Vipers are serving PAF at 5th Squadron, Shahbaz Air Base, Jacobabad.
> 
> Congrats. All new Falcons are equipped with CFTs. *


You and your sources are thinking from heart instead of using your brain. My following post has all your answers.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...tan-f-16-discussions-2-a-337.html#post2604209

The opportunity of buying 36 Bk52 were given to us, but thanks to Musharf we never availed it. We received great support from the world in managing relief work at Earthquake hit areas. There was no reason to decrease military budget and weapon procurement plans. 

Now things are changed, neither we have money nor trust to continue such deal. The 18 Bk52s may not enough to achieve air superiority, but further enhancement of JF-17 and procurement of FC-20 will be a long term solution.

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## monitor

From Pshamim 


> Remaining 38 F-16 will be delivered after receiving MLU at TAI. TAI will complete delivery of all F-16s by August 29, 2014. MLUed aircrafts will be tested by TAI's test pilot. As part of the contract, Pakistani technicians will receive full training in Turkey and Pakistan. First contingent of 72 PAF technicians completed their traing and returned to Pakistan. With the structural modifications, body and wings life was extended and renewed. All avionics have also been changed. RadarrRange of the mlued F-16s is increased by 30%. Target acquisition and shoot capability has also been enhanced considerably.
> 
> * Latest news about FC-20 is that technical negotiation were completed abd business negotiations have begun. PAF has made a commitment towards the FC-20 and now the business negotiation needs to complete enabling PAF to buy them*.

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## DANGER-ZONE

The SC said:


> A few thousand ... ???



You are reported dear, go back and use you original profile for longing in next time.


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## The SC

RS4 said:


> Something to bear in mind is that the PAF have a very strong history and experiance with F16s, the F16 is combat proven where as the JF17 and J10 are not. Also the Blk 52 are exspensive but would give the Paf a High tech muti role capability which is very much what the PAF is looking for.



I hoped Pakistan could have had 200 or more f16s and a few f15s to assure its air superiority at a low cost and for a long time to come.
That was my thought with no malice or bad feelings.


----------



## Last Hope

The SC said:


> I hoped Pakistan could have had *200 or more f16s and a few f15s* to assure its air superiority at a *low cost *and for a long time to come.
> That was my thought with no malice or bad feelings.



The bold parts don't quite go together, do they?

Pakistan has invested in the JF-17 and FC-20 program due to the low cost and high efficiency and other reasons.
These include, the fleet not being grounded due to sanctions from US _(Spare parts not being sold)_.

The Air Force planners are more intelligent than you and me, and know what is better. 
Soon, F-16s would be parked in hangars, once the US is out of Afghanistan and this 'War on Terror' is over.. like earlier. 
Buying F-16s or JF-17s of the same cost? 
A F-16 Block 52 costs (Price PAF bought it for) $45Mn and a JF-17 Block 1 costs around $15-20Mn. Block II however costs $25-28Mn. (No idea of FC-20).
A wise option would be FC-20 and JF-17 than F-16s. But altogether, a hanful amount of F-16s with AIM-120 would ensure some tough competition.

Please have some personal feasibility analysis before you ask for 200 F-16s and 50 F-15s.


----------



## The SC

Last Hope said:


> The bold parts don't quite go together, do they?
> 
> Pakistan has invested in the JF-17 and FC-20 program due to the low cost and high efficiency and other reasons.
> These include, the fleet not being grounded due to sanctions from US _(Spare parts not being sold)_.
> 
> The Air Force planners are more intelligent than you and me, and know what is better.
> Soon, F-16s would be parked in hangars, once the US is out of Afghanistan and this 'War on Terror' is over.. like earlier.
> Buying F-16s or JF-17s of the same cost?
> A F-16 Block 52 costs (Price PAF bought it for) $45Mn and a JF-17 Block 1 costs around $15-20Mn. Block II however costs $25-28Mn. (No idea of FC-20).
> A wise option would be FC-20 and JF-17 than F-16s. But altogether, a hanful amount of F-16s with AIM-120 would ensure some tough competition.
> 
> Please have some personal feasibility analysis before you ask for 200 F-16s and 50 F-15s.
> 
> ---------- Post added at 12:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:47 AM ----------
> 
> 
> 
> The bold parts don't quite go together, do they?
> 
> Pakistan has invested in the JF-17 and FC-20 program due to the low cost and high efficiency and other reasons.
> These include, the fleet not being grounded due to sanctions from US _(Spare parts not being sold)_.
> 
> The Air Force planners are more intelligent than you and me, and know what is better.
> Soon, F-16s would be parked in hangars, once the US is out of Afghanistan and this 'War on Terror' is over.. like earlier.
> Buying F-16s or JF-17s of the same cost?
> A F-16 Block 52 costs (Price PAF bought it for) $45Mn and a JF-17 Block 1 costs around $15-20Mn. Block II however costs $25-28Mn. (No idea of FC-20).
> A wise option would be FC-20 and JF-17 than F-16s. But altogether, a hanful amount of F-16s with AIM-120 would ensure some tough competition.
> 
> Please have some personal feasibility analysis before you ask for 200 F-16s and 50 F-15s.



The alternative is sweeter to me too, I said "I hoped Pakistan could have had" meaning before the deal with china.


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## ziaulislam

Last Hope said:


> The bold parts don't quite go together, do they?
> 
> Pakistan has invested in the JF-17 and FC-20 program due to the low cost and high efficiency and other reasons.
> These include, the fleet not being grounded due to sanctions from US _(Spare parts not being sold)_.
> 
> The Air Force planners are more intelligent than you and me, and know what is better.
> Soon, F-16s would be parked in hangars, once the US is out of Afghanistan and this 'War on Terror' is over.. like earlier.
> Buying F-16s or JF-17s of the same cost?
> A F-16 Block 52 costs (Price PAF bought it for) $45Mn and a JF-17 Block 1 costs around $15-20Mn. Block II however costs $25-28Mn. (No idea of FC-20).
> A wise option would be FC-20 and JF-17 than F-16s. But altogether, a hanful amount of F-16s with AIM-120 would ensure some tough competition.
> 
> Please have some personal feasibility analysis before you ask for 200 F-16s and 50 F-15s.



we brough the f-16 for nearly 90 million..
i dont know why people cant get this simple fact..
1.5 billion were set for 18 f-16s (3.0 billion for 36 f-16)..its all over the net, every where, yet our members quote half the price?????

thunder block 1 price was set for 18-19 million..800million for 42 jets..dont know why its price is quoted at 15 million?


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## SBD-3

Pervaiz Sahib on F-16MLU Program


> Remaining 38 F-16 will be delivered after receiving MLU at TAI. TAI will complete delivery of all F-16s by August 29, 2014. MLUed aircrafts will be tested by TAI's test pilot. As part of the contract, Pakistani technicians will receive full training in Turkey and Pakistan. First contingent of 72 PAF technicians completed their traing and returned to Pakistan. With the structural modifications, body and wings life was extended and renewed. All avionics have also been changed. RadarrRange of the mlued F-16s is increased by 30%. Target acquisition and shoot capability has also been enhanced considerably.


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## Arsalan

*Inaugural flight on newly inducted F-16D Block 52+ by ACM Qamar Suleman*
_February 13, 2012 _

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## fatman17

*&#8220;Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment.&#8221; 
-- Unknown *

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## Last Hope

ziaulislam said:


> we brough the f-16 for nearly 90 million..
> i dont know why people cant get this simple fact..
> 1.5 billion were set for 18 f-16s (3.0 billion for 36 f-16)..its all over the net, every where, yet our members quote half the price?????
> 
> thunder block 1 price was set for 18-19 million..800million for 42 jets..dont know why its price is quoted at 15 million?



Ziaulislam.

The F-16s we bought costed $45Mn per unit. The Price of $1.8Bn included training of pilots, the AIM-120s, GBU-31 and other weapons. I guess that JHMCS was also a part of this, not sure.


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## ziaulislam

Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s &#8211; $3 billion
Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s &#8211; $650 Million
Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits &#8211; $1.3 billion
Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR &#8211; $151 Million
Deal Updates and Progress [updated]
Potential Controversies (July 5, 2006)

Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s &#8211; $3 billion


PAF F-16D Block 52
(click to view full)

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of up to 36 F-16C Block 50 and F-16D Block 52 two-seater aircraft &#8211; a buy of 18 jets, with an option for another 18. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $3 billion.

The planes will be equipped with the APG-68(V)9 radars, which are the most modern F-16 radar except for the UAE&#8217;s F-16E/F Block 60 &#8220;Desert Falcons&#8221; and their AN/APG-80 AESA. The engine contract was less certain. Pakistan&#8217;s existing F-16s use the Pratt & Whitney F100 engine, the new planes involved a competition between Pratt & Whitney&#8217;s F100-PW-229 or General Electric&#8217;s F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs). Pratt & Whitney kept their customer, and supplied the new F-16s with their F100-PW-229 EEP variant. 

The package for Pakistan&#8217;s new F-16s also includes:
7 spare F100-PW-229 EEP or F110-GE-129 IPE engines (F100-PW-229 EEP selected)
7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets
36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II
36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircraft&#8217;s sides to give them extra range
36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; see tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems
36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems
36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare (ALQ-211 AIDEW) Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (picked); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM
1 Unit Level Trainer
Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability. 

The principal contractors under Pakistan&#8217;s &#8220;Peace Drive&#8221; buy will be: 
Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, TX
Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control, Dallas, TX
BAE Advanced Systems Greenlawn, NY
Boeing Corporation Seattle, WA 
Boeing Integrated Defense Systems: St Louis, MO; Long Beach, CA; San Diego, CA 
Raytheon Company: Lexington, MA; Goleta, CA 
Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, AZ 
Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX 
Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD 
United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT; or
General Electric Aircraft Engines in Cincinnati, OH

There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support and program management of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF].

$5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s

*so only training and few spare parts are included in this package but it comes by default, you cant buy a fighter without being trained/basic spare parts?..if you are thinking of construction costs, so ofcourse it isnt that high , point is the company has to take its profits....but for all practical purposes the f-16 costs near 90 million for us, if we had gone for option of another 18 it would have still cost the same wether we get trained or not..
..the weapons deal was different that cost 650 million..*

---------- Post added at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 PM ----------

*Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s &#8211; $650 Million *

To equip those new F-16s, the Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:
500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)
12 AMRAAM training missiles &#8211; these have seeker warheads but lack engines
200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X.
240 LAU-129/A Launchers &#8211; these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles. 
500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits
1,600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 (500 lb.) and GBU-24s (2,000 lb.) with dual laser/GPS guidance
800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs 
700 BLU-109 2,000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse
Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability will also be provided.



*all of this has been posted several times on this forum*

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## farhan_9909

Last Hope said:


> Ziaulislam.
> 
> The F-16s we bought costed $45Mn per unit. The Price of $1.8Bn included training of pilots, the AIM-120s, GBU-31 and other weapons. I guess that JHMCS was also a part of this, not sure.



No the 3billions doesnt include the weapons or anything else cost

and 15millions means a average cost


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## Edevelop

This might be a weird question. Can F-16 take PL-5 and SD-10 if we run out and or get sanctioned by the U.S's Aim-9 and Aim-120?


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## mymeaningislion

cb4 said:


> This might be a weird question. Can F-16 take PL-5 and SD-10 if we run out and or get sanctioned by the U.S's Aim-9 and Aim-120?



yes in case if you have architectural design and knowledge of the circuits ( it is very very difficult to get any idea by mere physical examination as the chips have millions of Gates built in and the sequence and design is known to manufacturer but by physical examination "functions" can be determined to an extent) so now come to the main point how it can be done ................look F16 have some software as which is acting as system software as windows does for PC and this system software is installed and design for specific hardware means ammunition and it helps the different parts to cordinate and work in a manner instructed...... so to install a new hardware you have to update the software so to synchronize its system software to communicate its messages with the hardware to be installed but here a glitch comes as the said missile have also its own set of instruction so you also have to decode it first......... simply you havve to solve the mystery from both ends........... this is the case if US does not allow us to do so...........and in current situation to think that US will allow us to do as we wish is day dreaming.............. if have any confusion plz ask i will gladly answer the question......... takecare bro

regards

Azhar

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## fatman17

mymeaningislion said:


> yes in case if you have architectural design and knowledge of the circuits ( it is very very difficult to get any idea by mere physical examination as the chips have millions of Gates built in and the sequence and design is known to manufacturer but by physical examination "functions" can be determined to an extent) so now come to the main point how it can be done ................look F16 have some software as which is acting as system software as windows does for PC and this system software is installed and design for specific hardware means ammunition and it helps the different parts to cordinate and work in a manner instructed...... so to install a new hardware you have to update the software so to synchronize its system software to communicate its messages with the hardware to be installed but here a glitch comes as the said missile have also its own set of instruction so you also have to decode it first......... simply you havve to solve the mystery from both ends........... this is the case if US does not allow us to do so...........and in current situation to think that US will allow us to do as we wish is day dreaming.............. if have any confusion plz ask i will gladly answer the question......... takecare bro
> 
> regards
> 
> Azhar



in the past PAF was able to successfully integrate US missiles on chinese aircraft, however integrating chinese origin missiles on US aircraft has not been attempted....


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## CallsignAlzaeem

http://http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/10325/a-visit-to-shamsi-airbase-all-is-well/

''I reached Shamsi airbase along with several other journalists and senior Pakistan Air Force officials, to inspect the *36 new F-16 C Block 52 fighters*.''


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## SQ8

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> http://http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/10325/a-visit-to-shamsi-airbase-all-is-well/
> 
> ''I reached Shamsi airbase along with several other journalists and senior Pakistan Air Force officials, to inspect the *36 new F-16 C Block 52 fighters*.''


Which he was expecting according to misinformation.. but there were not 36 there.

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## [--Leo--]

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> http://http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/10325/a-visit-to-shamsi-airbase-all-is-well/
> 
> ''I reached Shamsi airbase along with several other journalists and senior Pakistan Air Force officials, to inspect the *36 new F-16 C Block 52 fighters*.''



Just when we get 36 block 52?


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## CallsignAlzaeem

Oscar said:


> Which he was expecting according to misinformation.. but there were not 36 there.



Agreed never trust Pakistani media when it comes to aviation.

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## Last Hope

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> Agreed never trust Pakistani media when it comes to aviation.



Aviation? I'd rather say never trust Pakistani media when it comes to Military (unless they quote ISPR) or political drama.
Just trust all the bad news they give. That's what they are worth for.


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## Imran Khan

CallsignAlzaeem said:


> Agreed never trust Pakistani media when it comes to aviation.



just look apron of shamsi it can't park 4 f-16 yaar irs 110*60 meters 

even you parked on runway 5-6 more will come


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## SQ8

The MLU's from Turkey have arrived in Pakistan after the acceptance(delivery) ceremony in Turkey on feb 8th.

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## soul hacker

ISLAMABAD: The Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) has handed over the first batch of three F-16 Block 15 MLU (Mid Life Upgrade) aircrafts to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).

The aircraft were earlier sent to TAI for MLU and have been delivered to PAF as per commitment, said a press release.

In October 2010, the PAF had signed a contract with the TAI to upgrade all its F-16 Block 15 aircraft. Under the Peace Drive II programme, the TAI is performing avionics and structural modernisation of F-16 aircraft that are on the inventory of Pakistan Air Force since 1982-83 and the project is planned to be completed by September 2014.

To commemorate the event, a simple ceremony was held at PAF Base Shahbaz. Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Operations) Air Marshal Waseemud Din along with PAF officials attended the ceremony.

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## Saifullah Sani




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## alibaz

Great news that first batch has been done in time and to the utmost satisfaction


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## killerx

good pak should upgrade them all any one full specs and pics of the jets arrived from turkey


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## soul hacker

A digital illustration of JF-17 Thunder and F-16D Block52 flying with SAAB-2000 AEW&C.

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## Dazzler

we have the first f-16 MLU aircraft that are equipped with APG- 68v9s! and 211 series of AIDEWS EW suite. Thats some capability indeed

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## nafsiati

check this out! f16 with thrust vectoring technology!
F-16 MATV doing the "Helicopter" J-turn backflip maneuvers. - YouTube

my question is that does the planes airframe plays a special role in thrust vectoring technology in terms of aerodynamics?

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## Dazzler

during gulf war1, an f-16 dogged 6 Sams!!


F-16 dodging 6 Iraqi SAM launches on Jan 19 1991 - YouTube

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## lkozhi

may be enemy code change is free


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## fatman17

*TAI upgraded F-16s arrive in Pakistan *


February 26, 2012 (by Asif Shamim) - The first batch of three TAI upgraded F-16 block 15 MLU (Mid Life Upgrade) were delivered to the Pakistan Air Force on Friday. 


The aircraft were flown from Ankara, Turkey to PAF Base Shahbaz at Jacobabad according to a PAF spokesman. The aircraft were earlier sent to TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industries) to be refurbished under the Peace Drive II program which started in October 2010.

Under the programme, TAI is modernising the avionics and structure of the F-16 jets that have been in service with the PAF since 1982-83. The projected completion date for all the upgrades is expected to be September 2014.

A ceremony was held to commemorate the delivery of the first batch of upgraded jets, attended by Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations), Air Marshal Waseemuddin, and other officials. 

Earlier this month, the US delivered the last F-16D block 52 jet and two F-16 block 15 jets that had undergone a mid-life upgrade in the US.


Related articles: 
&#9632;TAI delivers first upgraded PAF F-16 (2012-02-08)
&#9632;Pakistan receives first MLU F-16s (2012-02-06)
&#9632;Tusas sign contract to modernise Pakistani F-16s (2009-06-29)
&#9632;Turkey to upgrade Pakistani F-16s (2008-08-08)
&#9632;Other General F-16 News
&#9632;News archive for February 2012


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## killerx

can some one post full specs and new capablites of upgraded F16 came form turkey


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## SBD-3

nabil_05 said:


> we have the first f-16 MLU aircraft that are equipped with APG- 68v9s! and 211 series of AIDEWS EW suite. Thats some capability indeed


The Block 50/52 Plus is a version which has special provisions for the adverse weather delivery of the Boeing JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munition). The update includes an add-on tail unit containing a synthetic aperture radar, providing guidance to 1,000lbs Mk.83, 2,000lbs Mk.84 and the 2,000lbs BLU-109 warhead. Other features include passive missile warning, terrain-referenced navigation, and provisions for the 600 US gal (2,271 litre) external fuel tanks and conformal fuel tanks.

Other features of the aircraft include an on-board oxygen generating system (OBOGS), the AN/APX-113 advanced electronic interrogator/transponder IFF system, helmet-mounted cueing system (HMCS), ASPIS internal electronic countermeasures suite (full provisions), the Northrop Grumman APG-68(V)9 radar, which is the latest version of the F-16C/D radar. This radar features significant improvements in detection range, resolution, growth potential, and supportability. Furthermore, application of advanced processing techniques enhances the radar's ability to operate in dense electromagnetic environments and resist jamming better than all previous models.

The V(9) version of the AN/APG-68 radar provides both improved air-to-air capabilities and air-to-ground capabilities. These include: 

&#9632;30 percent increase in detection range; 
&#9632;Improvements in false alarm rate and mutual interference; 
&#9632;Four versus two tracked targets in the Situation Awareness mode (a search-while-track mode); 
&#9632;Larger search volume and improved track performance in Track While Scan mode; 
&#9632;Improved track performance in Single Target Track mode; 
&#9632;Two-foot resolution in new Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) mode, which allows autonomous delivery of precision, all-weather, standoff weapons; 
&#9632;Increased detection range in Sea Surveillance mode; 
&#9632;Improved target detection and map quality in Ground Moving Target Indication mode. 

In general, this radar offers a 5X increase in processing speed and 10X increase in memory compared to the current AN/APG-68 radar and provides large growth potential.

The first production V(9) radar, which was delivered in April 2002, will be installed in the first Greece Block 52+ F-16. Also the new Israeli F-16s will be equiped with it.

The latest Israeli F-16 block 52 will furthermore be equiped with a video data link and Conformal Fuel Tanks manufactured by Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI), advanced avionics and a helmet-mounted display manufactured by Elbit, an advanced electronic warfare suite manufactured by Elisra and advanced weapons and sensors manufactured by Rafael. This makes these aircraft are becoming more and more an Israeli domestic product.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article9.html


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## The SC

fatman17 said:


> in the past PAF was able to successfully integrate US missiles on chinese aircraft, however integrating chinese origin missiles on US aircraft has not been attempted....



why not just reverse engineer the American missiles.


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## nomi007

The SC said:


> why not just reverse engineer the American missiles.


now we will try to install sd-10b on f-16s


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## killerx

Pakistan is also working on ramjert missile with china the range grater then 145km

---------- Post added at 02:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:30 PM ----------

Pakistan air force don't need to copy American missiles we have made better once of our own

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## air marshal

*TAI upgraded F-16s arrive in Pakistan*
February 26, 2012

by Asif Shamim

The first batch of three TAI upgraded F-16 block 15 MLU (Mid Life Upgrade) were delivered to the Pakistan Air Force on Friday.

The aircraft were flown from Ankara, Turkey to PAF Base Shahbaz at Jacobabad according to a PAF spokesman. The aircraft were earlier sent to TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industries) to be refurbished under the Peace Drive II program which started in October 2010.

Under the programme, TAI is modernising the avionics and structure of the F-16 jets that have been in service with the PAF since 1982-83. 

The projected completion date for all the upgrades is expected to be September 2014.

A ceremony was held to commemorate the delivery of the first batch of upgraded jets, attended by Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations), Air Marshal Waseemuddin, and other officials.

Earlier this month, the US delivered the last F-16D block 52 jet and two F-16 block 15 jets that had undergone a mid-life upgrade in the US.

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## Windjammer

*
Albeit from Izmir Air show 2011, check out from 7.20, PAF F-16 display captured from a different angle and in HD. *

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## nafsiati

nomi007 said:


> now we will try to install sd-10b on f-16s


 
what is the source?


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## dexter

PAF F-16 Block 52+ S.N 10801 with AIM-9M Sidewinder missiles,AGM-65 Maverick and Sniper Pod.

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## soul hacker

PAF F-16 MLU with APG-68v9 radars giving it following capabilities :

The V(9) version of the AN/APG-68 radar provides both improved air-to-air capabilities and air-to-ground capabilities. These include: 

30 percent increase in detection range; 
Improvements in false alarm rate and mutual interference; 
Four versus two tracked targets in the Situation Awareness mode (a search-while-track mode); 
Larger search volume and improved track performance in Track While Scan mode; 
Improved track performance in Single Target Track mode; 
Two-foot resolution in new Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) mode, which allows autonomous delivery of precision, all-weather, standoff weapons; 
Increased detection range in Sea Surveillance mode; 
Improved target detection and map quality in Ground Moving Target Indication mode.

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## razgriz19

nomi007 said:


> now we will try to install sd-10b on f-16s



....?
we bought 500 AMRAAMS for a reason.

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## Najam Khan

nomi007 said:


> now we will try to install sd-10b on f-16s



You can't add Chinese origin weapons to a modern day U.S origin aircraft. Neither you can jail break its avionics. If you add a non-configured weapon to an aircraft, a Malfunction message will appear on the MFD or avionics toolkit. Every component has a related module which manages its working. For.e.g Weapon management system manages the external weapon load working. It passes on the current status of each pylon to aircraft's mission computer.

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## Peaceful Civilian

Nice to see Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) involvement in latest Conformal Fuel Tanks for Pak F16s.


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## cch4530

Does anyone here have any good shots of the MLU vipers?


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## nomi007

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Nice to see Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) involvement in latest Conformal Fuel Tanks for Pak F16s.


our latest viper also using Israeli made helmet


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## The SC

nomi007 said:


> our latest viper also using Israeli made helmet



Those are US made technologies manufactured in Usrael. Less cost for delivery.


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## The SC

Najam Khan said:


> You can't add Chinese origin weapons to a modern day U.S origin aircraft. Neither you can jail break its avionics. If you add a non-configured weapon to an aircraft, a Malfunction message will appear on the MFD or avionics toolkit. Every component has a related module which manages its working. For.e.g Weapon management system manages the external weapon load working. It passes on the current status of each pylon to aircraft's mission computer.



This malfunction message will help in finding out why and correcting the missile software till it fits.


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## killerx

can some post an compastion chart of the specs of the block52 and MLU of PAF


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## Najam Khan

The SC said:


> This malfunction message will help in finding out why and correcting the missile software till it fits.


Actually its one of the status that is displayed in MFD/avionics toolkit. Its like MAL for Malfunction, RDY for ready/active etc. 
The MAL status is displayed each time some problem in missile and avionics occur. For e.g When some problem in weapon's connection with pylon occurs or when pylon/its nearest connection box is damaged then MAL status is displayed.

Such errors are difficult to resolve during flight, the only solution is to land safely and report them to engg team (both fitting and avionics men).

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## Free Soul

I noticed the Tail vertical stabilizer (ruder) *base* of Block 50/52+ F-16s is wider and bigger. But noticed in some Block 50/52s pictures we do not see this feature. *Is this specific to Block 50/52 Plus?*

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article9.html 

The Block 50/52 Plus is a version which has special provisions for the adverse weather delivery of the Boeing JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munition). The update includes an *add-on tail unit containing a synthetic aperture radar*, providing guidance to 1,000lbs Mk.83, 2,000lbs Mk.84 and the 2,000lbs BLU-109 warhead.

Looking into V(9) version of the AN/APG-68 radar as it provides both improved air-to-air capabilities and air-to-ground capabilities. 
We know that Block 50/52 Plus APG-68 v-9 includes added resolution in new Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) mode, which allows autonomous delivery of precision, all-weather, standoff weapons.

*Do the tail sensors and highlighted unit in the pictures - contains the add-ons to SAR?*

Image below PAF F-16 Block 50/52+ (with wider bigger ruder base)











*Below Image below F-16 Block 50/52, Note extrusion of the base unit of the vertical Stabilizer is not as prominent as pictures above.*


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## Imran Khan

Free Soul said:


> I noticed the Tail vertical stabilizer (ruder) *base* of Block 50/52+ F-16s is wider and bigger. But noticed in some Block 50/52s pictures we do not see this feature. *Is this specific to Block 50/52 Plus?*
> 
> http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article9.html
> 
> The Block 50/52 Plus is a version which has special provisions for the adverse weather delivery of the Boeing JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munition). The update includes an *add-on tail unit containing a synthetic aperture radar*, providing guidance to 1,000lbs Mk.83, 2,000lbs Mk.84 and the 2,000lbs BLU-109 warhead.
> 
> Looking into V(9) version of the AN/APG-68 radar as it provides both improved air-to-air capabilities and air-to-ground capabilities.
> We know that Block 50/52 Plus APG-68 v-9 includes added resolution in new Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) mode, which allows autonomous delivery of precision, all-weather, standoff weapons.
> 
> *Do the tail sensors and highlighted unit in the pictures - contains the add-ons to SAR?*
> 
> Image below PAF F-16 Block 50/52+ (with wider bigger ruder base)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Below Image below F-16 Block 50/52, Note extrusion of the base unit of the vertical Stabilizer is not as prominent as pictures above.*


its parachute dear for stop them early blocks have no parachutes thats why they are small .


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## IceCold

Najam Khan said:


> You can't add Chinese origin weapons to a modern day U.S origin aircraft. Neither you can jail break its avionics. If you add a non-configured weapon to an aircraft, a Malfunction message will appear on the MFD or avionics toolkit. Every component has a related module which manages its working. For.e.g Weapon management system manages the external weapon load working. It passes on the current status of each pylon to aircraft's mission computer.



You cant or you wont? there is a difference between the two sir? 
On a side note Chinese weapons are known to have compatibility with western systems and the main reason is us because we always liked the kink between the two. 
Correct me on this one but If am not wrong, we can integrate SD-10 on an F-16 provided we have the source codes for the same. Perhaps the turkish can help in this regard.


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## Free Soul

Imran Khan said:


> its parachute dear for stop them early blocks have no parachutes thats why they are small .



Sure &#8211; but I always thought all F-16 used to have break parachutes. Unless like Israel Air Force F-16 C which did not have break parachute.
I went though some details - Cheil Ha'avir Israel Defense Force/Air Force - IDF/AF
Externally, the Israeli F-16C differs from other F-16C's by having an extension to the base of its vertical stabilizer, similar to the Norwegian F-16s parachute brake compartment; however, no parachutes are used on IAF F-16s
Also on Israeli F-16 D 50/52, The back seat is reserved for the F-16s Weapon System Operator. Externally this fighter differs from other F-16D's by having a boxlike extension from the cockpit to the vertical stabilizer, referred to as a dorsal spine. Think it is not just a support beam as some of the Block 50/52 F-16s we (PAF) received did not have that Dorsal Spine.
The dorsal fairing was designed, mocked up, fabricated and installed during regular routine assembly while these aircraft were on the production line in Fort Worth. The dorsal spine is believed to accommodate Wild Weasel equipment (amongst others Elisra's SPS-3000 self-protection jammer) for Israeli F-16s, which detects emissions from enemy radar sites and pinpoints their locations, and specialized weapon delivery systems, such as 'smart bombs' guided using the back seat's side stick for control. Israeli Air force only confirms that it has various electronic systems (think they did not confirm Wild Weasel equipment). 

Thus the following got me curious as to the reason behind some of the Block 50/52s having extended Vertical stabilizer base and some not.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article9.html 

The Block 50/52 Plus is a version which has special provisions for the adverse weather delivery of the Boeing JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munition). The update includes an *add-on tail unit containing a synthetic aperture radar*, providing guidance to 1,000lbs Mk.83, 2,000lbs Mk.84 and the 2,000lbs BLU-109 warhead.

There are tons of F-16 block 50/52 pictures on this thread and all over the forum where some block 50/52s have this feature and some do not like Some F-16 Ds have a dorsal Spine and some do not.

*Hence the questions*

Is this specific to Block 50/52 Plus?
Do the tail sensors and highlighted unit in the pictures, could or they do contain the add-ons to SAR?

P.S. intrestingly while the F-16B is a two seat version of the F-16A used for pilot conversion, the Israeli F-16D is completely different from the F-16C where the back seat is reserved for the F-16s Weapon System Operator(WSO) - this is specially true for Israeli F-16 Ds with Dorsal spine.
Do PAF F-16 Ds (one with dorsal Spine) have the rear seat reserved for WSO too?


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## Dazzler

Yes, PAF blk 52s have WSO in the back seat, this aircraft fulfils training as a secondary function unlike the F-16B model which was primarily for training.


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## Najam Khan

Free Soul said:


> I noticed the Tail vertical stabilizer (ruder) *base* of Block 50/52+ F-16s is wider and bigger. But noticed in some Block 50/52s pictures we do not see this feature. *Is this specific to Block 50/52 Plus?*


The PAF/HAF/PoAF operates similar Block52s. Their tail section has drogue chute+ECM housing unlike CCIP upgraded F-16s/non-drogue chute Block52s. The thick tail compartment also contains AN/ALR-56M RWR.

Greece and Pakistan operates different type of Block52s. HAF F-16s have ASPIS-II internal ECM where as PAF F-16s have Carrapace passive RWR system.

Some related links:

HAF F-16C block 30 #116 returning from a factory visit to install ECM equipment 
http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item21926.html

Close-up of the Carrapace passive RWR system installed on Belgian AF F-16s. The system consists of 2 receivers, mounted in the parachute compartiment and under the intake. 
http://www.f-16.net/gallery_item45617.html




> Countermeasures
> 
> Current block 50 F-16 aircraft for the USA are equipped with the Lockheed Martin superheterodyne AN/ALR-56M radar warning receiver. The F-16 is also compatible with a range of jammers and electronic countermeasures equipment, including Northrop Grumman AN/ALQ-131, Raytheon AN/ALQ-184, Elisra SPS 3000 and Elta EL/L-8240, and the Northrop Grumman ALQ-165 self-protection suite.
> 
> Lockheed Martin ALE-40 and ALE-47 chaff and infrared flare dispenser systems are installed in an internal flush mount. ALE-40 is pilot-controlled but the ALE-47 installed in block 50 can be operated in fully, semi-automatic or manual mode.
> 
> *F-16s for the Greek Air Force are being fitted with the Raytheon advanced self-protection integrated suite (ASPIS) II which includes Northrop Grumman ALR-93(V) threat warning system, Raytheon ALQ-187 jammer and BAE Systems ALE-47 chaff / flare dispenser.*



F-16s for Chile and Pakistan are fitted with the ITT AN/ALQ-211 (V) 4 electronic warfare suite.
F-16 Fighting Falcon - Airforce Technology

AN/ALR-56M RWR

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## Najam Khan

IceCold said:


> *You cant or you wont? there is a difference between the two sir? *


In this case, both can't and won't have similar meaning.

" Can't " because of the limitations of the weapon interoperability.
" Won't " because we know that all the doors that have opened after decades will close again.



IceCold said:


> On a side note Chinese weapons are known to have compatibility with western systems and the main reason is us because we always liked the kink between the two.
> Correct me on this one but If am not wrong, we can integrate SD-10 on an F-16 provided we have the source codes for the same. Perhaps the turkish can help in this regard.



Despite the fact that Turkey and Pakistan have brotherly relations, we Must understand that TAI is doing business with us...on behalf of L.M. Any similar illegal move will create problems for both sides. Once they violate the terms of agreement, things will change for them too.

Lastly, what is the worst case scenario of using SD-10s on F-16s? Perhaps loosing 2/3rd of AMRAAMs in few days of conflict? Poor missile/kill ratio of AMRAAMs? In all such cases, embarking a Chinese missile onto a western type will be both technical and strategic nightmare.

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## Fieldmarshal

IceCold said:


> provided we have the source codes for the same. Perhaps the turkish can help in this regard.



Wt if i told u that we just helped the Turks in this regard ; )


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## IceCold

Fieldmarshal said:


> Wt if i told u that we just helped the Turks in this regard ; )



Things like these should not be said out loud


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## fatman17

nabil_05 said:


> Yes, PAF blk 52s have *WSO* in the back seat, this aircraft fulfils training as a secondary function unlike the F-16B model which was primarily for training.



after the MLU, will the F-16B have a WSO?


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## Windjammer



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## nomi007

in future is there is any chance of more used f-16s from any other country especially from usa?

---------- Post added at 02:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 PM ----------





see this video
really interested


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## Windjammer

The latest edition of AFM, carries an interesting news item regarding the last delivered Block-52 F-16D.
"While the remainder of the new F-16C/D had been delivered some time ago, but 10801 had been retained by the manufacturer to complete testing of Pakistan-specific weapons and equipment".
_
Other than the standard package, what special weapons would Pakistan be deploying on the new birds. ?? !! _


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## Free Soul

Windjammer said:


> The latest edition of AFM, carries an interesting news item regarding the last delivered Block-52 F-16D.
> "While the remainder of the new F-16C/D had been delivered some time ago, but 10801 had been retained by the manufacturer to complete testing of Pakistan-specific weapons and equipment".
> _
> Other than the standard package, what special weapons would Pakistan be deploying on the new birds. ?? !! _


Cool good to know that there is some creditable news, pointing to F-16 D having some special treatment done to it.

A few posts above in #5179.

Right from the start it found it intriguing that amongst F-16 Block 50/52s you can see some obvious external differences.

Like Block 50/52 Ds that were delivered earlier to PAF didn&#8217;t have a Dorsal Spine, some F-16 Ds have a dorsal spine, i looked bit into that on my own just checking from various sources and found it very interesting that Israeli F-16 Ds with dorsal spine are a bit special (details in post above)

It left a cheeky smile on my face when I could confirm to myself that we have got ourselves F-16 Ds with a dorsal spine (how many of our F-16 Ds have dorsal spine, I don&#8217;t know, may be someone can shed some light on that).

P.S. Photo-shopped aircraft pictures just grind my gears. When some internet crusader puts Pakistan flag on the ruder of an aircraft misleading people. 1st of all it is a shoddy job. Plus a headache when it comes for an enthusiast to do a bit of research on available Photos and information laying around.


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## Free Soul

fatman17 said:


> after the MLU, will the F-16B have a WSO?



In my opinion i think it would not be so. Think if it needs to be done then it would involve very extensive and expensive work to be carried out, cockpit revamp, rear seat controls and perhaps designing a new Dorsal spine for F-16 B MLUs to carry additional stuff for WSO. 

But i do not know for sure.

I think even the block 50/52s Ds without Dorsal Sipne do not have WSO designated rear seat. I came to this conclusion based on info that - The dorsal fairing was designed, mocked up, fabricated and installed during regular routine assembly while F-16 Block 50/52s were on the production line in Fort Worth. The dorsal spine is believed to accommodate Wild Weasel equipment (amongst others Elisra's SPS-3000 self-protection jammer) for Israeli F-16s. Not all F-16 Ds have this feature.

Just my opinion

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## Windjammer

^^^^^^
AFAIK, all the "D" models have a dorsal spine, the confusion may arise, that during the course, some refurbished/MLU F-16Bs were also delivered which obviously don't have the same outlook.

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## Imran Khan

Windjammer said:


> The latest edition of AFM, carries an interesting news item regarding the last delivered Block-52 F-16D.
> "While the remainder of the new F-16C/D had been delivered some time ago, but 10801 had been retained by the manufacturer to complete testing of Pakistan-specific weapons and equipment".
> _
> Other than the standard package, what special weapons would Pakistan be deploying on the new birds. ?? !! _



i was reading it today never got anything abut f-16 i got only news of pakistani MI-17s which we give to afghans are being upgrade. also this issue has nice info of IAF .


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## Windjammer

^^^^^^^^^

Page-28, news item with a couple of nice pix.


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## Dazzler

Windjammer said:


> The latest edition of AFM, carries an interesting news item regarding the last delivered Block-52 F-16D.
> "While the remainder of the new F-16C/D had been delivered some time ago, but 10801 had been retained by the manufacturer to complete testing of Pakistan-specific weapons and equipment".
> _
> Other than the standard package, what special weapons would Pakistan be deploying on the new birds. ?? !! _



makes sense a bit, our MLUs are the first with V9 and ALQ 211 series of ew suit for an MLU so integration standard for MLU must have been perplexing hence took more time. No wonder they examined the last of our D aircraft to match its specifications with Pakistan specific MLU package. A lot of other things must have been corrected too like fatigue testing, weight parameters, flight dynamics for additional weight due to similar avionics, radar and EW equipment.

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## Donatello

Hi,

This is hard to believe as why would America want Pakistan to put it's own weapons on the F-16s. That way we will have the f-16s armed to teeth whether we are under sanctions or not.....something India would hate.


But Maybe Pakistan infused this in the deal, as we were dishing out close to 5 billion.......PAF could have done that with Eurofighter or Dassault.

So lets wait and see if any Pakistani weapons can be added to f-16s.


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## Free Soul

Donatello said:


> This is hard to believe as why would America want Pakistan to put it's own weapons on the F-16s. That way we will have the f-16s armed to teeth whether we are under sanctions or not



The question is why would USA not want Pakistan to put US weapons on aircrafts bought from US.
They have the biggest Defence industry and they are doing business, they have big clients. On the other hand they don&#8217;t even really need our small quantity purchases to make money, we got lucky we would never have seen our F-16s that America never delivered to us even after taking money and even charged us storage.

Our aim is definitely not to be under sanctions, but we never know Thus comes the J-10B, 
J-10B is with which i am most excited about way more than F-16 Ds and their dorsal spines. 

J-10B It&#8217;s a Big Blessing in open and in disguise. Our co-operation with China would increase and we would be hopefully free from buying expensive Western Aircrafts and learn to build with China and build our own one day.

Is J-10B better than F-16 ? is JF-17 Better than F-16? I don&#8217;t know, i think they are not, and it is pointless to dwell on that. What J-10B gives us freedom; JF-17 development gave us the courage and gave the rest of the world a dropped jaw.



Donatello said:


> we were dishing out close to 5 billion.......PAF could have done that with Eurofighter or Dassault.



We are dishing out 5 billion because the equipment is worth 5 Billion, do we really want to spend this much money? The answer is Nope.
Why are we spending this money then? Reason is obvious protecting our borders etc etc.
French Tech has always been very expansive, Mirage 2000 was being considered by Gen Zia-ul-Haq but F-16 won, F-16 was way better value for money and quality then and even now. 
Rafael is one damn gorgeous and capable aircraft but do I know how much it costs or do you?
Well i don&#8217;t. 
Anyways we have a old F-16 fleet that also got Mid Life Upgraded in the overall deal, even if Typhoon was cheap (which i don&#8217;t think it is) we would have been left with our old F-16 A/Bs and some 10 new Typhoons. Would that have been a good deal? I think not, don&#8217;t know about others.
For that matter everyone would love to have Typhoons, Raphaels, F-35s, Gryphens and what not but it&#8217;s not that simple.



Donatello said:


> So lets wait and see if any Pakistani weapons can be added to f-16s.


Anything can be done but how practical is a innocent thought, it&#8217;s a different story.
In layman terms its like a guy comes to you with a IBM peripheral device and software encrypted to the hilt and gives you a Mac machine and Sun Solaris OS and asks you to make the Peripheral device work and software run on it. Bazonga :p
It can be done but you will first need to know the peripheral device have 30 units of it. Dismantle and destroy 80% then make a intermediate hardware unit then a software to interact with two entirely different platforms. 
Think of cost and effort and more than likely danger of damaging both aircraft and the weapon with a pirated software.

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## ziaulislam

point is that all modern aircrfts cost more than 100 million WITHOUT weapon suit..
so if we had gone for rafale etc with 5 billion in hand not only would we been unable to get our older 45 fleet worth anything but also we would have ended with not more than 20-24 aircrfts instead of 63 possible 77.. and training \mastering it would have been all together a different issue.


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## White Lightning

*Pakistan receives final batch of F-16 aircraft from US*





*Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has received the final batch of three F-16 D Block 52 aircrafts from the US at Shahbaz Air Force Base, Pakistan, as part of a $2.7bn US foreign military sale (FMS) signed in December 2006.*

Pakistan has received two F-16 Block 15 mid life upgrade (MLU) and one F-16 D Block 52 aircraft, which includes day-night, all-weather and precision-attack capabilities.

The delivery comes at a time when military aid for Pakistan has been almost completely halted by the US in the wake of a series of crises affecting the bilateral relationship between the two nations.

The final batch for PAF includes 12 F-16C and six F-16D block 52 aircrafts equipped with Night Precision Attack capability. Lockheed Martin was the prime contractor.

The compact multirole, single-engine Lockheed Martin-built F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft has a high level of manoeuvrability, a top speed of 2,124km/h, and is capable of detecting planes flying at very low altitudes.

The F-16 block 52 aircraft is equipped with AMRAAM and Sidewinder missiles as well as the Sniper targeting pod, which provides additional fuel and payload capacity, improved avionics and sensors and colour cockpit displays with enhanced pilot / vehicle interfaces.

The AN/APG-68 radar-equipped F-16 with wind-corrected munitions dispenser infrared navigation provides the pilot with separate air-to-air and air-to-ground modes, including long-range, all-aspect detection and tracking, simultaneous multiple-target tracking and high-resolution ground mapping.

The jets are widely deployed by the air forces of Israel, Egypt, Iraq, New Zealand, South Korea, Chile, Poland, UAE, Bahrain, Greece and Singapore.

The US is also working with the PAF to update 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the US foreign military financing security assistance programme.

The aircraft are currently undergoing mid-life upgrades and deliveries are scheduled to take place throughout 2012 and 2013.

Source: 08 February 2012 - Global Air Force industry News (Airforce Technology) 

Photo: US delivers final batch of F-16C Fighting Falcon Block 52 aircraft to Pakistan Air Force. (Photo by xairforces.net)

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## fatman17

*JHMCS: Fighter Pilots&#8217; &#8220;Look & Shoot&#8221; Helmets Changing Aerial Warfare*

Mar 02, 2012 14:28 EST


Latest updates: JHMCS-II; JHMCS FRP-8 order; NVCD order; How to kill an F-22; Improved tracking of JHMCS FMS requests;


In the 1970s, fighter aircraft began to appear with Head-Up Displays (HUD) that projected key information, targeting crosshairs etc. onto a seemingly clear piece of glass. HUDs allowed pilots to keep their eyes in the sky, instead of looking down at their instruments. Ever since, we&#8217;ve been wondering when we&#8217;d see them in our automobiles. In the 1990s, another innovation appeared: helmet-mounted displays (HMDs) put the HUD inside the pilot&#8217;s helmet, providing this information even when the pilot wasn&#8217;t looking straight ahead. The Israelis were already pioneering a system called DASH (Display And Sight Helmet) when a set of former East German MiG-29s, equipped with Soviet HMDs, slaughtered USAF F-16s in NATO exercises. Suddenly, helmet-mounted displays became must-haves for modern fighters &#8211; and a key partnership positioned Elbit to take DASH to the next level.

This DID Spotlight article offers insights into the rocky past, successful present, and competitive future of a program that has experienced its share of snags and controversy &#8211; but went on to become the #1 helmet-mounted sight in the world. It also details the JHMCS&#8217; game-changing effects on air combat, its production sets and known customers, and all contracts since full-rate production began&#8230;

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## TOPGUN

So once again for the last time the majic question is do we now have 36 blk 52's in house? or just 18 ?


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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> So once again for the last time the majic question is do we now have 36 blk 52's in house? or just 18 ?



18 = 8een!


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## umair86

what kind of people are here on this forum asking childish question.


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## nomi007

umair86 said:


> what kind of people are here on this forum asking childish question.


yeh to free he ho ge hain 18 f-16s kia mil ge aur 18 ki batein suru kar di hain


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## nomi007

are our f-16 are fully compact able with saab 2000 ?


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## Doctor09



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## PakShaheen79

^ Was it part of F-16 deal or some new agreement? I think this news is about same items (JHMCS) which were included in F-16 deal of 2005.


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## Battle Axe

I was once so enamoured with that possibility of 100+ or 6 Squadrons of shining Vipers but that does not look like happening. We stay clocked at 63, oh 77!

No news of buying used F-16s from Norway (I'll prefer them a tonne over Blk I Thunders for our experience, combat record & love for the former bird) or elsewhere, nor the option of 18 Blk 52 & nor the 14 Navy EDAs being released...

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## alimobin memon

Battle Axe said:


> I was once so enamoured with that possibility of 100+ or 6 Squadrons of shining Vipers but that does not look like happening. We stay clocked at 63, oh 77!
> 
> No news of buying used F-16s from Norway (I'll prefer them a tonne over Blk I Thunders for our experience, combat record & love for the former bird) or elsewhere, nor the option of 18 Blk 52 & nor the 14 Navy EDAs being released...



No one's buying norway f-16


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## ziaulislam

seems so we wont be getting any more before 2015.
if US stays in afghnistan and pakistan manages to have even a descent relationship with them then we can expect some EDA stuff or cheaper refurbished stuff around 2015 as they will be inducting the JSF at that time.


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## Imran Khan

alimobin memon said:


> No one's buying norway f-16



they are outdated and used fully why we buy junk for just numbers?. thats why this money should used for any thing else.


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## Free Soul

Imran Khan said:


> they are outdated and used fully why we buy junk for just numbers?. thats why this money should used for any thing else.



Should avoid making sweeping statements like something is junk so and so.

F-16 A/Bs Mid Life Upgraded is what we got too. we never think of them as junk not even before MLU.

Don&#8217;t know if we are buying any Norwegian F-16 or not, but if a decision is taken it would be well thought-out

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## Imran Khan

Free Soul said:


> Should avoid making sweeping statements like something is junk so and so.
> 
> F-16 A/Bs Mid Life Upgraded is what we got too. we never think of them as junk not even before MLU.
> 
> Don&#8217;t know if we are buying any Norwegian F-16 or not, but if a decision is taken it would be well thought-out



its not MLU its flight hours and environment sir .they lived and worked in extreme and fly over sea and stay near sea have hell flights hours . they are not rich to throw them away .


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## malik1979

Hi
I just wanna know if all f16 block 52 plus MLU F16 to be stationed in Jacobabad then which planes would be in SARGODHA AIRBASE


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## Last Hope

Free Soul said:


> I noticed the Tail vertical stabilizer (ruder) *base* of Block 50/52+ F-16s is wider and bigger. But noticed in some Block 50/52s pictures we do not see this feature. *Is this specific to Block 50/52 Plus?*



Free Soul.

The difference is that Block 52 has two variants. F-16C and F-16D.
F-16D has a spine and is dual seater, unlike F-16C. 

So in short, there are some changes in the fuselages and to meet the requirement, the length and size is adjusted.


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## Free Soul

Imran Khan said:


> its not MLU its flight hours and environment sir .they lived and worked in extreme and fly over sea and stay near sea have hell flights hours . they are not rich to throw them away .



Valid points Sir, Also MLU is not just a weapon systems, avionics upgrade.
Airframe and skin repairs are also taken care of. This adds to the aircraft&#8217;s life.

Included in MLU is following as well.



> *Aircraft structural integrity program*
> The F-16s airframe has been subject to more heavy loads than was predicted in 1979. This resulted in several unpredicted hair cracks in some of the airframe's bulkheads. Before an aircraft can be offered for MLU modification, *the current state of the airframe is examined in the extensive Aircraft Structural Integrity Program (PACER SLIP). In this modification program, all bulkheads of the aircraft will be examined and repaired (using the so called Cold Working method) if necessary. After PACER SLIP, the aircraft will be able to last at least another 5,000 flying hours* and can complete its life expectancy of 30 years.
> 
> Note that hair cracks are not uncommon in aircraft design. To predict the acceptable number and type of cracks, the aircraft manufacturer used information that reflected the exact capabilities of the aircraft. The F-16 was designed as a light and highly manoeuvrable aircraft that could withstand 9G and last for a minimum of 8,000 flight hours. All data is recorded in a load spectrum that specifies the use of the aircraft (i.e. type of missions), aircraft load and predicted number of landings.



First F-16 arrived at Sargodha Airbase on 15 January 1983 (delivered from 1983 to 1987) &#8211; our existing fleet of F-16s was of some 25 years and older, think of flying hours done on these aircrafts. MLU has added life to our older F-16s and made them very relevant with systems upgrades.

Regarding Flight hours and environment I would not think as if Norwegian F-16s are parked like a car on the road curb all rusty and rotten. A fighter aircraft is well looked after.

All of this is besides the point, I do not know if we are or even were thinking about procurement of some old Norwegian F-16s. 

My contention was just that calling something junk is a tad bit OTT.

As far as i am concerned, i am more excited about J-10Bs.


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## Donatello

Doctor09 said:


>




AIM 9X???????

We didn't order Aim 9X....or did we?

Any think tank members who can clarify?


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## Free Soul

Donatello said:


> AIM 9X???????
> 
> We didn't order Aim 9X....or did we?
> 
> Any think tank members who can clarify?



Sorry am not Think Tank, but can share this much

Think we are getting AIM-9M or 9R Sidewinder, Off-bore sight aiming capability, Proximity/optic fuse etc. these are not fifth generation AIM-9X but the next best after that.



> *Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s &#8211; $650 Million*
> 
> To equip those new F-16s, the Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:
> 
> 500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)
> 12 AMRAAM training missiles &#8211; these have seeker warheads but lack engines
> *200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X.*
> 240 LAU-129/A Launchers &#8211; these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles.
> 500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits
> 1,600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 (500 lb.) and GBU-24s (2,000 lb.) with dual laser/GPS guidance
> 800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs
> 700 BLU-109 2,000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse
> Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability will also be provided.



$5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s


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## Najam Khan

Donatello said:


> AIM 9X???????
> *
> We didn't order Aim 9X....or did we?*
> 
> Any think tank members who can clarify?



Well this question has no definite answer...some people point their guns at Airchief and his team, some at U.S administration which was trying its best to capture the MMRCA...the delay in supply of -9X was not in PAF's favour.

My understanding is that "9M-8/9 standard" was the most favourable option available at that time. It is improved version of -9L, with better guidance system, InfraRed Counter Counter Measures (IRCCM) capability and 35 degree High Off Bore Sight (HOBS) as compare to 90 degree HOBS of -9X. Both -9X and -9M have same warhead and propulsion system, but -9x has more speed and possibly more range as claimed by Raytheon.

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## fatman17

Najam Khan said:


> Well this question has no definite answer...some people point their guns at Airchief and his team, some at U.S administration which was trying its best to capture the MMRCA...the delay in supply of -9X was not in PAF's favour.
> 
> My understanding is that "9M-8/9 standard" was the most favourable option available at that time. It is improved version of -9L, with better guidance system, InfraRed Counter Counter Measures (IRCCM) capability and 35 degree High Off Bore Sight (HOBS) as compare to 90 degree HOBS of -9X. Both -9X and -9M have same warhead and propulsion system, but -9x has more speed and possibly more range as claimed by Raytheon.



9X will be available sooner than later.

---------- Post added at 01:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:15 PM ----------




Free Soul said:


> Sorry am not Think Tank, but can share this much
> 
> Think we are getting AIM-9M or 9R Sidewinder, Off-bore sight aiming capability, Proximity/optic fuse etc. these are not fifth generation AIM-9X but the next best after that.
> 
> 
> 
> $5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s



remember the deal was 'concluded' in 2006 and at that time the 9X was only available to US and NATO airforces plus some tier-1 countries like japan, israel etc.
now it is available to most 'allies'. its a matter of time.

---------- Post added at 01:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:18 PM ----------




malik1979 said:


> Hi
> I just wanna know if all f16 block 52 plus MLU F16 to be stationed in Jacobabad then which planes would be in SARGODHA AIRBASE



once the MLU is complete, there will be 4 viper squadrons. 2 at shabaz and 2 at mushaf.

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## nomi007

Italy is returning its 14 f-16 to usa this year they are good in condition and are block 30 i think we try for get


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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> Italy is returning its 14 f-16 to usa this year they are good in condition and are block 30 i think we try for get



you are wrong sir .they are not block-30 . they are block-5 block-10 and block-15 .which were already in storage of USAF IN 2003.
USAF take them out of Davis-Monthan AFB give them refurbishment and upgrades and hand over to italy . they are ex-USAF + upgrade and now EX-ITALY block 5 and 10  if you fly them more they will give you taste of mig-21 .


http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article10.html

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## regular

If U guyz want to get F-16's then get only newer ones not the used ones....I guess....one new is better than two older ones.....


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## Imran Khan

regular said:


> If U guyz want to get F-16's then get only newer ones not the used ones....I guess....one new is better than two older ones.....



we never go used only mess of those who embargoed we got otherwise pakistan get first 40 new then 18 new .


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## soul hacker

F-16C Block52 pilot doing pre-flight checks prior to a training flight.

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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> we never go used only mess of those who embargoed we got otherwise pakistan get first 40 new then 18 new .


is it right that paf want to increase f-16s almost 150 in his inventory


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## TOPGUN

nomi007 said:


> is it right that paf want to increase f-16s almost 150 in his inventory



150 i don't know.. but yes PAF always wanted to maintian a fleet of atleast 100+ vipers.. but given the current saga who knows .


----------



## untitled

fatman17 said:


> 9X will be available sooner than later.



An interesting bit of trivia about the AIM-9X



> *Sidewinders Surface Attack Capability*
> 
> The U.S. Air Force has evaluated the use of AIM-9X and AIM-9X Block I missiles against surface targets, employing the missiles imaging sensor as a surface target seeker. The first test was conducted in March 2007, as a U.S. Air Force F-15C fired an AIM-9X and destroyed a fast-moving armored personnel carrier. In April 2008, a U.S. Air Force F-16 launched an AIM-9X and sank a maneuvering boat. This was repeated in September 2009 with an AIM-9X fired from a U.S. Air Force F-16C fighter sinking a rapidly moving target boat in the Gulf of Mexico. However, this surface attack capability tested again with the Block I version in March and May 2010 delivered mixed results. The tests included seven captive carry flights and six live fire tests, and achieved 66% success rate. Four missiles scored direct hits of the ground mobile targets, one hit a different target than fired against, and one lost track on the selected target.

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## Donatello

pdf_shurtah said:


> An interesting bit of trivia about the AIM-9X



Hmm....

The question is why would you use a $100,000 missile to destroy a cheap a$$ armored personal carrier?

For sinking boats maybe.....


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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> is it right that paf want to increase f-16s almost 150 in his inventory



nope its not right .even if we believe it its not mean they want stored block-5 and or 15 which sent junkyard already and then taken back upgraded work more ten years and sent again junk yard .


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## untitled

Donatello said:


> Hmm....
> 
> The question is why would you use a $100,000 missile to destroy a cheap armored personal carrier?



What if intelligence confirms that the APC in question is carrying a high value target ?

By the way the cost of AIM-9X is $362,000


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## Donatello

pdf_shurtah said:


> What if intelligence confirms that the APC in question is carrying a high value target ?
> 
> By the way the cost of AIM-9X is $362,000



362,000......even better for the sake of my argument....

What i mean is that for a potential valuable target you can use all you want, but if the concept is anti-tank and anti-armor role, then it is too costly. Simpler Anti-Tank weapons will do the job just fine.


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## Proud to be Pakistani

Donatello said:


> 362,000......even better for the sake of my argument....
> 
> What i mean is that for a potential valuable target you can use all you want, but if the concept is anti-tank and anti-armor role, then it is too costly. Simpler Anti-Tank weapons will do the job just fine.



Completely agree with you .... BS idea


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## nomi007

kc-135 refueling f-16
interested video

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## Edevelop



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## soul hacker

A group photo of seven F-16 pilots. Five of these are member of 1000hrs F-16 Flight club and one is member of 2000hrs club.

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## soul hacker

sorry for this stupid question but i really want to know

what is the minimum time for f-16 to intercept any foreign fighter in case of emergency?


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## mymeaningislion

soul hacker said:


> sorry for this stupid question but i really want to know
> 
> what is the minimum time for f-16 to intercept any foreign fighter in case of emergency?



yar.....what can i say....it depends.....how far u r from intruder and when u have noticed its presense and how much time ur quick response team takes to make the pilot and aircraft ready to fly.....its not rocket science....... and subfators includes speed, direction.....anything more u want to ask? bro.....

regards

Leo the lion

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## razgriz19

soul hacker said:


> sorry for this stupid question but i really want to know
> 
> what is the minimum time for f-16 to intercept any foreign fighter in case of emergency?



well PAF says the reaction time is between 2-10 minutes depending on the distance, situation etc


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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> well PAF says the reaction time is between 2-10 minutes depending on the distance, situation etc



its called QRA. during high threat times, the pilots either sit in their cockpits or stay in the shelters where the a/c are parked, then the reaction time is quick. in peace-time, the duty pilots scramble from their mess / living quarters area, this takes a bit longer. i am narrating what a ex-pilot told me. whether its true now-a-days, i dont know.

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## Arsalan

PAF Minhas is reported to have a response time of 8 minutes.
this is the time in which the base can get there fighters air borne.

this is for peace time response where the base in on red alert.

in red alert scenario, the planes are kept with engines on and pilots are in them,
all the need is a GO from ATC and the mission profile is given once the jets are flying! in this case, the response time is quoted under 1 minute 30 seconds!

this is as per my discussion with a PAF GDP pilot!

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## Jango

I remember seeing pilots at PAF Sargodha sitting in the cockpits, with umbrellas on top of the cockpit to prevent sunlight, and reading Urdu Digests!!!!


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## BelligerentPacifist

^Now they be sitting tweeting on their androids.


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## Last Hope

arsalanaslam123 said:


> PAF Minhas is reported to have a response time of 8 minutes.
> this is the time in which the base can get there fighters air borne.
> 
> this is for peace time response where the base in on red alert.
> 
> *in red alert scenario, the planes are kept with engines on and pilots are in them,
> all the need is a GO from ATC and the mission profile is given once the jets are flying! in this case, the response time is quoted under 1 minute 30 seconds!
> 
> this is as per my discussion with a PAF GDP pilot!*



Sorry to say but this isn't true. Every major airbase has F-16s (standard ADA fighter) fully loaded and pilots on duty. Response time is 6 minutes, which could be reduced to 4. But saying pilots in cockpit and engine on is exaggerated. Arsalan, this is not feasible, unless you are sure that a bogey is set to arrive at a particular time, with intelligence reports or similar.

Would be appreciable if you mention the rank of pilot, a Flt. Lt would generally say such things in humor but not a Group Captain!


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> Sorry to say but this isn't true. Every major airbase has F-16s (standard ADA fighter) fully loaded and pilots on duty. Response time is 6 minutes, which could be reduced to 4. But saying pilots in cockpit and engine on is exaggerated. Arsalan, this is not feasible, unless you are sure that a bogey is set to arrive at a particular time, with intelligence reports or similar.
> 
> Would be appreciable if you mention the rank of pilot, a Flt. Lt would generally say such things in humor but not a Group Captain!



*Engines on might not happen*, but the pilot is seated in the aircraft in times of danger, and the crew associated with the craft are present, the fire extinguishers, the APU's/GPU's and every equipment is right by the side.


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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> *Engines on might not happen*, but the pilot is seated in the aircraft in times of danger, and the crew associated with the craft are present, the fire extinguishers, the APU's/GPU's and every equipment is right by the side.



Exactly what I said. 

Each ADA serving squadron has atleast two pilots ready all the times, and depending on the scenario and nature of emergency, upto 6 F-16s like you said. Minimum is two, some bases have three, but in critical alert, the highest number is 6 and lowest is 4.


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> Exactly what I said.
> 
> Each ADA serving squadron has atleast two pilots ready all the times, and depending on the scenario and nature of emergency, upto 6 F-16s like you said. Minimum is two, some bases have three, but in critical alert, the highest number is 6 and lowest is 4.



Back when I frequently saw those pilots, they are were in F-7's!!!


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## soul hacker

little off the topic but intresting

PAF F-16 being loaded for a Combat Air Patrol (CAP) mission during border stand-off with India in late2001/early2002.

The yellow band on these Sidewinder missiles denote that it is live weapon. The blue band means its for training.

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## Last Hope



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## Donatello

soul hacker said:


> little off the topic but intresting
> 
> PAF F-16 being loaded for a Combat Air Patrol (CAP) mission during border stand-off with India in late2001/early2002.
> 
> The yellow band on these Sidewinder missiles denote that it is live weapon. The blue band means its for training.




Two sidewinders on the left wing......i am assuming two more on the right one.....4 sidewinders....so indeed...the F-16s were armed well.....though with the lack of BVR system, our boys would have been at a disadvantage.


----------



## Arsalan

Last Hope said:


> Sorry to say but this isn't true. Every major airbase has F-16s (standard ADA fighter) fully loaded and pilots on duty. Response time is 6 minutes, which could be reduced to 4. But saying pilots in cockpit and engine on is exaggerated. Arsalan, this is not feasible, unless you are sure that a bogey is set to arrive at a particular time, with intelligence reports or similar.
> 
> Would be appreciable if you mention the rank of pilot, a Flt. Lt would generally say such things in humor but not a Group Captain!



have seen all this my self, 
remember the 2001-2002 stand-off between Pakistan and India, have witnessed the Engines On, Pilots ready status on PAF Base Kamara myself. these were F-7 fighters.

and yes, i was not just passing by!


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## Last Hope

arsalanaslam123 said:


> have seen all this my self,
> remember the 2001-2002 stand-off between Pakistan and India, have witnessed the Engines On, Pilots ready status on PAF Base Kamara myself.
> was not just passing by!



That is ten years ago! 
Things have changed in those ten years, today, instead of sitting inside the aircraft with the engines on, normally the pilots would be close to the aircraft. And, other aircrafts would perform CAP operations. As for this one, I witnessed this during the 2008 possible war breakout. The F-16s would fly over Lahore city on a extreme altitude, and patrol the borders. As for the base, ADA had more loaded F-16s ready.


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## Nishan_101

Is it real?
Pakistan Air Force: 36 on order (As of February 2011) for delivery in 2012, with an eventual requirement for 150
Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and I think we might going to order another 50+ new F-16s.


----------



## untitled

Nishan_101 said:


> Is it real?
> Pakistan Air Force: 36 on order (As of February 2011) for delivery in 2012, with an eventual requirement for 150
> Chengdu J-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ......



I asked this several months back with no reply from the seniors here. Which means this info is not correct and this question has been answered before a zillion times before


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## soul hacker

arsalanaslam123 said:


> have seen all this my self,
> remember the 2001-2002 stand-off between Pakistan and India, have witnessed the Engines On, Pilots ready status on PAF Base Kamara myself. these were F-7 fighters.
> 
> and yes, i was not just passing by!



Arslan bhai ghussa na karain, JUST CHILL


----------



## maheenangel74

USA sold all used f-16 to pak


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## nomi007

maheenangel74 said:


> USA sold all used f-16 to pak


why they sold all used to us
2nd you will pay


----------



## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

some pics of F-16........ recent one

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## proindian

A visit to Shahbaz airbase: All is well
February 23, 2012

February 23, 2012

While enjoying a smoke, the army chief said the military was fighting militants but also trying to inflict minimum damage on the people in federally administered tribal areas. PHOTO: INP

I reached Shahbaz airbase along with several other journalists and senior Pakistan Air Force officials, to inspect the *36 new F-16 C Block 52 fighters.* We were accompanied by General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani and Chief of Air Staff Rao Qamar Suleman. We toured the revamped base where the recently acquired aircraft will be housed, *and which has reportedly cost the government over $5 billion!
*
I could not see any American soldiers at the airbase, which is only 345 km away from Kandahar, Afghanistan. Everyone, including both the army and air force chiefs, appeared to be grateful to the United States for cooperating with the PAF in revamping the base as well as for providing modern aircraft to maintain regional strategic balance.

I, however, could not find answers to my queries despite spending more than three hours with both the officers. My questions related to our reliance on Americas help as well as apprehensions on Indias proposed $13 billion deal with France to purchase 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft. I wanted to know whether this would not place Pakistan at a clear disadvantage in South Asia.

My journalist colleagues also asked the army and air chiefs several questions, but none of the questions relating to India or America were answered. Later on, during lunch, some of our queries were answered. For example, when asked whether General Kayani was in search of another extension, he replied that the question should rather be put before the government.

He was asked who will decide whether or not to resume Nato supplies, and he said that this would be done by parliament. While enjoying a smoke, the army chief said the military was fighting militants but also trying to inflict minimum damage on the people in federally administered tribal areas.

When asked whether the standoff between the civilian leadership and military had cooled down, the arm chief claimed all is well. Meanwhile, the air chief said Shahbaz airbase was now completely under the operational control of the PAF and claimed the air force was fully capable of shooting down drones.

Despite the strained relationship between Pakistan and the US, it seems that the cooperation between the two allies is inevitable. A paradigm shift, however, is needed to keep the balance in these relations; it will not only lead both Islamabad and Washington to give a logical end to the Afghan endgame but also keep balance of power in the region.

Correction: An earlier version of this article incorrectly stated that the reporter visited Shamsi airbase. This has now been changed to Shahbaz airbase.

The views expressed by the writer and the reader comments do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of The Express Tribune.
A visit to Shahbaz airbase: All is well&#8230; &#8211; The Express Tribune Blog

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## razgriz19

^^ someone is terribily misinformed...

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## Nishan_101

Although the best thing was to get 28 old F-16s in 2002-2003 and upgrade them to MLU-3 and then invest more on JF-17 Production as well as K-8s and their further development. I was hoping that the JF-17 Block-Is will have Composites, IFRP, RD-93B and FLIR along with a dual seat that might have joined in 2008. But they were like leaving the JF-17 project on its own, although the GoP didn't provided the money for the production which is *quite bad* and if they have supported then it will be totally different now.
Fleet in 2012
59 F-16s Block-15 MLU-3
110 JF-17 Block-Is along(30 dual seat)
180 Mirage III/Vs
170 F-7/F-7PGs
50 Super Mushak
50 K-8Ps
50 JF-17 Dual seat for AJTs


----------



## hatf IX

proindian said:


> A visit to Shahbaz airbase: All is well&#8230;
> February 23, 2012
> 
> February 23, 2012
> 
> While enjoying a smoke, the army chief said the military was fighting militants but also trying to inflict minimum damage on the people in federally administered tribal areas. PHOTO: INP
> 
> I reached Shahbaz airbase along with several other journalists and senior Pakistan Air Force officials, to inspect the *36 new F-16 C Block 52 fighters.* We were accompanied by General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani and Chief of Air Staff Rao Qamar Suleman. We toured the revamped base where the recently acquired aircraft will be housed, *and which has reportedly cost the government over $5 billion!
> *
> I could not see any American soldiers at the airbase, which is only 345 km away from Kandahar, Afghanistan. Everyone, including both the army and air force chiefs, appeared to be grateful to the United States for cooperating with the PAF in revamping the base as well as for providing modern aircraft to maintain regional strategic balance.
> 
> I, however, could not find answers to my queries despite spending more than three hours with both the officers. My questions related to our reliance on America&#8217;s help as well as apprehensions on India&#8217;s proposed $13 billion deal with France to purchase 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft. I wanted to know whether this would not place Pakistan at a clear disadvantage in South Asia.
> 
> My journalist colleagues also asked the army and air chiefs several questions, but none of the questions relating to India or America were answered. Later on, during lunch, some of our queries were answered. For example, when asked whether General Kayani was in search of another extension, he replied that the question should rather be put before the government.
> 
> He was asked who will decide whether or not to resume Nato supplies, and he said that this would be done by parliament. While enjoying a smoke, the army chief said the military was fighting militants but also trying to inflict minimum damage on the people in federally administered tribal areas.
> 
> When asked whether the standoff between the civilian leadership and military had cooled down, the arm chief claimed &#8216;all is well&#8217;. Meanwhile, the air chief said Shahbaz airbase was now completely under the operational control of the PAF and claimed the air force was fully capable of shooting down drones.
> 
> Despite the strained relationship between Pakistan and the US, it seems that the cooperation between the two allies is inevitable. A paradigm shift, however, is needed to keep the balance in these relations; it will not only lead both Islamabad and Washington to give a logical end to the Afghan endgame but also keep balance of power in the region.
> 
> Correction: An earlier version of this article incorrectly stated that the reporter visited Shamsi airbase. This has now been changed to Shahbaz airbase.
> 
> The views expressed by the writer and the reader comments do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of The Express Tribune.
> A visit to Shahbaz airbase: All is well&#8230; &#8211; The Express Tribune Blog


does it cost the nation or government "very ill writing manner" too


----------



## Last Hope

Seems like we all have got a dilemma on how many Block 52s do we have.
Many people are reporting 36, not 18.

My sources, from Shahbaz Airbase, told me that over 3 dozen F-16s are at the base. We must have confused the Block 15 with Block 52s. The most likely error.


----------



## Donatello

proindian said:


> A visit to Shahbaz airbase: All is well
> February 23, 2012
> 
> February 23, 2012
> 
> While enjoying a smoke, the army chief said the military was fighting militants but also trying to inflict minimum damage on the people in federally administered tribal areas. PHOTO: INP
> 
> I reached Shahbaz airbase along with several other journalists and senior Pakistan Air Force officials, to inspect the *36 new F-16 C Block 52 fighters.* We were accompanied by General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani and Chief of Air Staff Rao Qamar Suleman. We toured the revamped base where the recently acquired aircraft will be housed, *and which has reportedly cost the government over $5 billion!
> *
> I could not see any American soldiers at the airbase, which is only 345 km away from Kandahar, Afghanistan. Everyone, including both the army and air force chiefs, appeared to be grateful to the United States for cooperating with the PAF in revamping the base as well as for providing modern aircraft to maintain regional strategic balance.
> 
> I, however, could not find answers to my queries despite spending more than three hours with both the officers. My questions related to our reliance on Americas help as well as apprehensions on Indias proposed $13 billion deal with France to purchase 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft. I wanted to know whether this would not place Pakistan at a clear disadvantage in South Asia.
> 
> My journalist colleagues also asked the army and air chiefs several questions, but none of the questions relating to India or America were answered. Later on, during lunch, some of our queries were answered. For example, when asked whether General Kayani was in search of another extension, he replied that the question should rather be put before the government.
> 
> He was asked who will decide whether or not to resume Nato supplies, and he said that this would be done by parliament. While enjoying a smoke, the army chief said the military was fighting militants but also trying to inflict minimum damage on the people in federally administered tribal areas.
> 
> When asked whether the standoff between the civilian leadership and military had cooled down, the arm chief claimed all is well. Meanwhile, the air chief said Shahbaz airbase was now completely under the operational control of the PAF and claimed the air force was fully capable of shooting down drones.
> 
> Despite the strained relationship between Pakistan and the US, it seems that the cooperation between the two allies is inevitable. A paradigm shift, however, is needed to keep the balance in these relations; it will not only lead both Islamabad and Washington to give a logical end to the Afghan endgame but also keep balance of power in the region.
> 
> Correction: An earlier version of this article incorrectly stated that the reporter visited Shamsi airbase. This has now been changed to Shahbaz airbase.
> 
> The views expressed by the writer and the reader comments do not necessarily reflect the views and policies of The Express Tribune.
> A visit to Shahbaz airbase: All is well  The Express Tribune Blog




We know that 18 F-16s BLK 52 have been delivered......the question is...did this guy see the other 18? He mentions a figure of 36 but fails to account for it in his trip. What a pathetic way of conveying information.


----------



## Last Hope

Donatello said:


> We know that 18 F-16s BLK 52 have been delivered......the question is...did this guy see the other 18? He mentions a figure of 36 but fails to account for it in his trip. What a pathetic way of conveying information.



Donatello.
He is not the only person, there are several sources, visitors and base personnel of Shahbaz airbase, who claim that 36 F-16 *Block 52 *are present. It would have been perfectly fine, if they assure us that 36 F-16s are present, which is for sure, but adding a 'Block 52' at the end makes things suspicious. 

When PAF got the first 2 MLU F-16s from US along a F-16D _(10801)_, some media reports said after the induction ceremony, that PAF has received 18 Block 52 F-16s. The question is, are they talking about the older F-16s or was a new delivery actually made? ISPR hides a lot of things for strategic reasons, but f-16.net didn't report any more sales.


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Last Hope said:


> Donatello.
> He is not the only person, there are several sources, visitors and base personnel of Shahbaz airbase, who claim that 36 F-16 *Block 52 *are present. It would have been perfectly fine, if they assure us that 36 F-16s are present, which is for sure, but adding a 'Block 52' at the end makes things suspicious.
> 
> When PAF got the first 2 MLU F-16s from US along a F-16D _(10801)_, some media reports said after the induction ceremony, that PAF has received 18 Block 52 F-16s. The question is, are they talking about the older F-16s or was a new delivery actually made? ISPR hides a lot of things for strategic reasons, but f-16.net didn't report any more sales.




36 means 36 I mean if they saw them only then they claimed it , I mean why would they lie they could have lied and said 80f16 but they only reported the number that we had option for it anyways not like it was secret


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## Last Hope

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 36 means 36 I mean if they saw them only then they claimed it , I mean why would they lie they could have lied and said 80f16 but they only reported the number that we had option for it anyways not like it was secret



I was informed too about 36 Block 52s in arsenal and a couple of pages back when I posted it, I was lashed back saying it is impossible and that no one except for your sources are saying it, not even f-16.net nor Lajes reports it.


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## Arsalan

soul hacker said:


> Arslan bhai ghussa na karain, JUST CHILL



Haieennn

No bro, no GUSA!
just discussing my observations and information dear!


thanks!

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## fatman17

^^^give it up guys!!!

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## Arsalan

Last Hope said:


> Donatello.
> He is not the only person, there are several sources, visitors and base personnel of Shahbaz airbase, who claim that 36 F-16 *Block 52 *are present. It would have been perfectly fine, if they assure us that 36 F-16s are present, which is for sure, but adding a 'Block 52' at the end makes things suspicious.
> 
> When PAF got the first 2 MLU F-16s from US along a F-16D _(10801)_, *some media reports said after the induction ceremony, that PAF has received 18 Block 52 F-16s. *The question is, are they talking about the older F-16s or was a new delivery actually made? ISPR hides a lot of things for strategic reasons, but f-16.net didn't report any more sales.



as for those reports, they were regarding the 18th Blk-52 being delivered.
we had 17 Blk52 previously and the LAST one came with the two MLU aircraft.

PAF have a total of 18 Blk-52 as of now and an option of additional 18 was available but with now with JFT maturing an d FC-20 around the corner, that seem unlikely to happen


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## SBD-3

arsalanaslam123 said:


> as for those reports, they were regarding the 18th Blk-52 being delivered.
> we had 17 Blk52 previously and the LAST one came with the two MLU aircraft.
> 
> PAF have a total of 18 Blk-52 as of now and an option of additional 18 was available but with now with JFT maturing an d FC-20 around the corner, that seem unlikely to happen


H Khan of Pakdef said it a while ago that PAF was considering exercise of the option of another 18...


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## Last Hope

arsalanaslam123 said:


> as for those reports, they were regarding the 18th Blk-52 being delivered.
> we had 17 Blk52 previously and the LAST one came with the two MLU aircraft.
> 
> PAF have a total of 18 Blk-52 as of now and an option of additional 18 was available but with now with JFT maturing an d FC-20 around the corner, that seem unlikely to happen



Exactly that's what the dilemma is. Pakistan had option for 36 F-16s, they chose 18 and have option of 18 F-16s open. 
No one except for base personnel claim that 36 F-16s are with PAF. 

I've got the list of serials of F-16s of Pakistan, and the base/squadron they are in. The only possibility is that the 18 more 'invisible' F-16s are transferred from other base, which is highly unlikely, unless those are for training of pilots for MLU.


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Well i don,t think that we need additional f-16 block 52s, mean we should invest in jf-17 rather than buying costly f-16s.
fc-20 is also a more viable option as compared to f-16.


----------



## Nishan_101

Although the best thing was to get 28 old F-16s in 2002-2003 and upgrade them to MLU-3 and then invest more on JF-17 Production as well as K-8s and their further development. I was hoping that the JF-17 Block-Is will have Composites, IFRP, RD-93B and FLIR along with a dual seat that might have joined in 2008. But they were like leaving the JF-17 project on its own, although the GoP didn't provided the money for the production which is quite bad and if they have supported then it will be totally different now.
Fleet in 2012
59 F-16s Block-15 MLU-3
110 JF-17 Block-Is along(30 dual seat)
180 Mirage III/Vs
170 F-7/F-7PGs
50 Super Mushak
50 K-8Ps
50 JF-17 Dual seat for AJTs

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## razgriz19

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> 36 means 36 I mean if they saw them only then they claimed it , I mean why would they lie they could have lied and said 80f16 but they only reported the number that we had option for it anyways not like it was secret



they are Pakistani reporters. Mirages are still "Jadeed Tareen" fighters for them.
and besides MLUed blk 15s also landed at shahbaz, maybe there are more blk 15 aircrafts there and the reporter simply mistaken them as* 36 *Blk 52...


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## proindian

Pakistan received F-16 Block 52 C
February 6, 2012

A fleet of four F16 aircrafts provided by the US have officially been introduced into Pakistan Air Force today in a ceremonial at the Shahbaz Airbase. One of them was the latest model of F-16 Block 52.

*The three F-16s are part of a batch of 18 aircrafts to be given to the Pakistan Air Force by the end of the year.
*
The following ceremonial was presided by, Defence Minister Chaudhry Ahmed Mukhtar, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, US Air Chief General Schwartz, US ambassador to Pakistan Anne Patterson and other senior civil and military officials.

This imported fleet will indeed strengthen the Pakistan Air Force fleet. The Ambassador Anne Patterson said the US is escalating collaboration with Pakistan in the financial and power segments as well.

*The second phase of consignment will add five F-16 Block 52 C fighter jets and would be complete within a period of month and a half.*



&#8220;The jet fighters were flown from the US to Jacobabad by Pakistan Air Force pilots, who had recently completed training on the new aircraft in the US,&#8221; Air Commodore Tariq Qamar Yazdanie told The Express Tribune. Air Marshal Muhammad Hasan, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Operations), Air Marshal Waseemud Din, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Administration), along with other senior Pakistan Air Force (PAF) officials, received the jets.



The most recent Fighting Falcons rolling off the Lockheed Martin&#8217;s manufacture line in Fort Worth, Texas, are superior Block 50/52 and recently, Block 60 editions. These fabrication series symbolize the largest design change in the F-16 history, offering supplementary fuel and payload ability, new or better avionics and sensors, color cockpit displays with enhanced pilot/vehicle interfaces. Nine countries have already ordered Advanced Block 50/52/60 F-16s, counting the Greece, Israel, UAE, Chile, Pakistan and Poland.


The F-16 Block 52 that arrived Pakistan today also carries the Westinghouse AN/APG-68 V (5) radar, which provides longer range recognition against air targets and superior dependability. The radar has a programmable signal central processing unit that utilizes very high-speed integrated circuit (VHSIC) technology. The next consignment will be definitely beneficial for Pakistan.

Pakistan received F-16 Block 52 C | The Techlusion

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## Manticore



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## Nishan_101

ANTIBODY said:


>


Man I think that PAF would have concentrated more on JF-17 program like using *Composites, RD-93Bs, Retractable In-Flight Refueling Probe and FLIR* in the PT-06 along with the trainer to fly in 2007 and complete its test and get inducted in 2008 with the same things that are present on single one then I am sure even the PAF with Chinese and local avionics would have gone for 110 JF-17 Block-Is with 30 Dual seat and about 50 Dual seat as dedicated AJTs along with producing 50 K-8Ps at PAC and further developing on a 25%-75% basis on K-8IIs with Composites, new Chinese engine, IFRB and other design and structural changes. More over looking towards producing 50-70 FC-20s at PAC then it will be a totally different PAF. I am with the 28 F-16s but not the new ones.

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## Infinite

Nishan_101 said:


> Man I think that PAF would have concentrated more on JF-17 program like using *Composites, RD-93Bs, Retractable In-Flight Refueling Probe and FLIR* in the PT-06 along with the trainer to fly in 2007 and complete its test and get inducted in 2008 with the same things that are present on single one then I am sure even the PAF with Chinese and local avionics would have gone for 110 JF-17 Block-Is with 30 Dual seat and about 50 Dual seat as dedicated AJTs along with producing 50 K-8Ps at PAC and further developing on a 25%-75% basis on K-8IIs with Composites, new Chinese engine, IFRB and other design and structural changes. More over looking towards producing 50-70 FC-20s at PAC then it will be a totally different PAF. I am with the 28 F-16s but not the new ones.


You also have to look at the adversary - We need high lo combination - These F-16's are vital for defense against Rafale and Su-30's.JF-17 alone won't provide us cover against these jets.I think PAF made a very good choice by buying Block 52- The Aim 120 capability is something that no nation except US could have provided us - AIM120 is the most lethal BVR Weapon that clearly helped PAF ALOT ( As PAF was pretty much BVR-LESS Before We got these).


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## fatman17

Infinite said:


> You also have to look at the adversary - We need high lo combination - These F-16's are vital for defense against Rafale and Su-30's.JF-17 alone won't provide us cover against these jets.I think PAF made a very good choice by buying Block 52- The Aim 120 capability is something that no nation except US could have provided us - AIM120 is the most lethal BVR Weapon that clearly helped PAF ALOT ( As PAF was pretty much BVR-LESS Before We got these).



*LETRI SD-10/PL-12*

While some confusion remains about designations, most sources identify the SD-10 and PL-12 as the
same missile, China's equivalent to the AMRAAM. This weapon is in sizing and configuration very similar
to the AIM-120A, but employs a unique tail planform. Equipped with an active radar seeker, and datalink
aided inertial midcourse guidance, this missile is a credible player against the AMRAAM and R-77 series.
The indigenous AMR-1 active seeker is identified with the PL-12, and numerous reports exist claiming that
it is a derivative of the Russian Agat 9B-1348E seeker package used in the R-77 series. The production
status of the PL-12 is unclear, but the missile has been claimed as a future weapon for the indigenous J-
10 fighter and the Su-27SK and Su-30, replacing imported R-77s on the latter. There is little doubt that
the PL-12 closes most of the technology gap between Chinese built BVR missiles and in service Western
BVR missiles.

_assessment by the ADF_

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## fatman17

*Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM*

The AMRAAM is the result of an ambitious 1980s plan to replace the AIM-7 with an active radar-guided
BVR weapon with much greater range performance. The program experienced extensive difficulties in
development and cost overruns. The earliest AIM-120A entered service during the late 1980s with US Air
Force F-15C units, the weapon was first used during Desert Storm and subsequent No Fly Zone
operations. It has now replaced the AIM-7 in most US units and has been widely exported to close US
allies, including Australia. As the AIM-120 uses inertial guidance with midcourse datalink updates
transmitted by the launch aircraft, integration of the weapon requires extensive radar upgrades. The LAU-
127A/A, LAU-128A/A and LAU-129A/A launchers are used with digital Mil-Std-1760 interfaces.
The earliest AIM-120A was 'hard-wired', requiring hardware upgrades to change the embedded code in
the WGU-16B. The improved AIM-120B introduced the WGU-41/B seeker with Electrically Erasable
Programmable Read Only Memory storage, permitting the missile seeker code to be upgraded in the field.
The current AIM-120C variant with the WGU-44/B seeker was designed for the F/A-22A and JSF, with
reduced span wings and controls for internal carriage, and a range of other improvements. The AIM-120C-
6 includes fusing changes to improve capability against cruise missiles. Variants with larger rocket motors
have been tested. The AIM-120 will remain the primary BVR missile in US service in coming decades.

_assessment by ADF_

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## fatman17

*Pakistan to Purchase Additional F-16 Fighters*

19 July 2011 

Pakistan is preparing to place an order for 18 additional F-16 block 52+ fighters, which would double its Fighting Falcon's advanced variant fleet, Pakistan Military Consortium think tank Haris Khan has said.

The nation is in the final stages of exercising an option to buy the fighters under a contract awarded in 2006, according to Defence News.

The F-16A/B block 15 aircraft will be put under a planned upgrade to bring the aircraft to the block 40 standard through the Falcon structural augmentation roadmap (STAR) programme.

The aircraft are undergoing mid-life update (MLU) at Turkish Aerospace Industries in Turkey.

The upgraded aircraft will also be equipped with the ITT Systems AN/ALQ-211(v)9 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare suite (AIDEWS) electronic warfare pod under US foreign military sale programme.

_this news is now 8 months old without any further progress!_


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## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan to Purchase Additional F-16 Fighters*
> 
> 19 July 2011
> 
> Pakistan is preparing to place an order for 18 additional F-16 block 52+ fighters, which would double its Fighting Falcon's advanced variant fleet, Pakistan Military Consortium think tank Haris Khan has said.
> 
> The nation is in the final stages of exercising an option to buy the fighters under a contract awarded in 2006, according to Defence News.
> 
> The F-16A/B block 15 aircraft will be put under a planned upgrade to bring the aircraft to the block 40 standard through the Falcon structural augmentation roadmap (STAR) programme.
> 
> The aircraft are undergoing mid-life update (MLU) at Turkish Aerospace Industries in Turkey.
> 
> The upgraded aircraft will also be equipped with the ITT Systems AN/ALQ-211(v)9 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare suite (AIDEWS) electronic warfare pod under US foreign military sale programme.
> 
> _this news is now 8 months old without any further progress!_



I was informed that, 14 of these would be F-16C and the rest 4 would be F-16D, all equipped with CFTs.
I guess it's time to believe that 36 Block 52s are operational.


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistan to Purchase Additional F-16 Fighters*
> 
> 19 July 2011
> 
> Pakistan is preparing to place an order for 18 additional F-16 block 52+ fighters, which would double its Fighting Falcon's advanced variant fleet, Pakistan Military Consortium think tank Haris Khan has said.
> 
> The nation is in the final stages of exercising an option to buy the fighters under a contract awarded in 2006, according to Defence News.
> 
> The F-16A/B block 15 aircraft will be put under a planned upgrade to bring the aircraft to the block 40 standard through the Falcon structural augmentation roadmap (STAR) programme.
> 
> The aircraft are undergoing mid-life update (MLU) at Turkish Aerospace Industries in Turkey.
> 
> The upgraded aircraft will also be equipped with the ITT Systems AN/ALQ-211(v)9 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare suite (AIDEWS) electronic warfare pod under US foreign military sale programme.
> 
> _this news is now 8 months old without any further progress!_




If acquiring another 18 f-16s, then this means there are serious issues at hand with regards t0 j-10 acquisition and PAF desperatelly needs a stop gap measure.


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## nomi007

i think we 1st normalize the us-Pakistan relations
2nd increase the fleet of f-16 more than 126
try to get those codes which allow us to install our our weapons on f-16s like sd-10 that's is very important
we also try to access old refurnished kc-135 for air refueling


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## Last Hope

nomi007 said:


> i think we 1st normalize the us-Pakistan relations


Sure must do, too much 'friendship' with US is dangerous and too much 'rivalry' is dangerous too.


> 2nd increase the fleet of f-16 more than 126


That's a poor suggestion. Once the NATO troops leave Afghanistan, and the 'War on Terror' ends, it is highly likely that USA will stop the spare-parts supply of F-16s to Pakistan, which means they will be scrap metal in hangars, like they were prior to the WoT. The Block-52 were bought, as per agreement and strings, 'to be used in war on terror' and '..PAF will not use these F-16s in any war breakout against India..'. Why waste the resources, invest wisely into FC-20 and JF-17 program.


> try to get those codes which allow us to install our our weapons on f-16s like sd-10 that's is very important


I'm sure that Pakistan Aeronautical Complex can do that, but warn you, this is breach of the terms of contract.


> we also try to access old refurnished kc-135 for air refueling


No comments on it, as I am no expert in aerial refueling planes. What I can say is, we must go for more C-130s, and upgrade a dozen of them with Air-to-Air refueling capabilities, like India.

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## White Lightning

*Pakistan Air Force Receives First Three Upgraded F-16s*





PAF F-16 Block 15 Aircraft Arrive After Mid Life Upgrade. First batch of three F-16 Block 15 MLU (Mid Life Upgrade) aircraft have arrived from Ankara, Turkey. The aircraft were earlier sent to TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industries) for Mid Life Upgrade and have been delivered to PAF on time.

In October 2010, PAF had signed a contract with TAI to upgrade all its F-16 Block 15 aircraft. Under the Peace Drive II program, TAI is performing avionics and structural modernization of F-16 aircraft that are on the inventory of Pakistan Air Force since 1982-83 and the project is planned to be completed by September 2014.

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## Aamir Hussain

A clue is to check the number of new dispersal pens built at Shahbaz Airbase. This gives a fair idea of number of aircraft that the base has been designed to house and handle. Caution, do not count the ready alert pens right ner the edge of runways. Those are not semi-permanent a/c housing structures.

The permanent type of dispersal pens are 32 and 8 ready alert pens. Accounting for emergency dispersal during wartime on disused or old pens, maintenance (Generally maint. work is done in hardened pens during wartime.)facilities etc. and apron areas, the base seems to be capable of not more than 32 aircraft at the most. 

I do not, as yet see the peacetime parking structures (shielding from sun and heat for the glass cockpit equipped Block 52's) on the main apron areas. 

This means that atleast two full strength F-16 squadrons will be housed at the base on a permanent basis. However, the main apron area does not support the parking for 20+ aircrafts. 

Generally, this has been the rule with PAF airbases -- the main bases have permanent housing for two squadrons each. 

However, there is still construction activity going on on the airfield and it is expected that apron area in near future will be expanded. 

Judging by the number of administration blocks and the size of the housing colony, it not only houses alteast two squadrons and its anicilliary staff but also substantial engineering and training facillities.

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## Donatello

Aamir Hussain said:


> A clue is to check the number of new dispersal pens built at Shahbaz Airbase. This gives a fair idea of number of aircraft that the base has been designed to house and handle. Caution, do not count the ready alert pens right ner the edge of runways. Those are not semi-permanent a/c housing structures.
> 
> The permanent type of dispersal pens are 32 and 8 ready alert pens. Accounting for emergency dispersal during wartime on disused or old pens, maintenance (Generally maint. work is done in hardened pens during wartime.)facilities etc. and apron areas, the base seems to be capable of not more than 32 aircraft at the most.
> 
> I do not, as yet see the peacetime parking structures (shielding from sun and heat for the glass cockpit equipped Block 52's) on the main apron areas.
> 
> This means that atleast two full strength F-16 squadrons will be housed at the base on a permanent basis. However, the main apron area does not support the parking for 20+ aircrafts.
> 
> Generally, this has been the rule with PAF airbases -- the main bases have permanent housing for two squadrons each.
> 
> However, there is still construction activity going on on the airfield and it is expected that apron area in near future will be expanded.
> 
> Judging by the number of administration blocks and the size of the housing colony, it not only houses alteast two squadrons and its anicilliary staff but also substantial engineering and training facillities.




Yes that is a fair analysis, but the second squadron, isn't it the one brought in from Sargodha? The upgraded F-16s?


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## Last Hope

Donatello said:


> Yes that is a fair analysis, but the second squadron, isn't it the one brought in from Sargodha? The upgraded F-16s?



Four MLU F-16s are present currently at Shahbaz Air Base.
Plus, there is a large expansion of the base going on.


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## fatman17

Last Hope said:


> Four MLU F-16s are present currently at Shahbaz Air Base.
> Plus, there is a large expansion of the base going on.



bcuz 2 Viper Sqdns and 1 JFT sqdn plus 1 IL-78 Midas will be the eventual home for these assets. a base of this size will / should be able to accomodate 5 combat squadrons.



White Lightning said:


> *Pakistan Air Force Receives First Three Upgraded F-16s*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF F-16 Block 15 Aircraft Arrive After Mid Life Upgrade. First batch of three F-16 Block 15 MLU (Mid Life Upgrade) aircraft have arrived from Ankara, Turkey. The aircraft were earlier sent to TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industries) for Mid Life Upgrade and have been delivered to PAF on time.
> 
> In October 2010, PAF had signed a contract with TAI to upgrade all its F-16 Block 15 aircraft. Under the Peace Drive II program, TAI is performing avionics and structural modernization of F-16 aircraft that are on the inventory of Pakistan Air Force since 1982-83 and the project is planned to be completed by September 2014.



brand spanking new!



Donatello said:


> If acquiring another 18 f-16s, then this means there are serious issues at hand with regards t0 j-10 acquisition and PAF desperatelly needs a stop gap measure.



my face has gone blue stating that the J-10 will NOT be inducted bcuz of engine issues. as long as the J-10 is powered by a russian engine, you will not see this type in PAF colors. so lets hope the chinese can get the kinks out of their WS series engines sooner than later. - thus the push for more F-16's. the US owes us 14 a/c and that is our line in our discussions. give us 14 new or 14 EDA.

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## VelocuR

With due respect, Fatman17 love this F-16s which is itself American planes, some of us rarely to spend time here because it *WILL not* protect our sky and people guarantee secure, were you ex-pilot? 

Let's hope we will get more 18 or 14 F-16s shining new!.


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## Arsalan

what about the STAR upgrades?
is that been done during the MLU up gradation?


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## abdulbarijan

fatman17 said:


> bcuz 2 Viper Sqdns and 1 JFT sqdn plus 1 IL-78 Midas will be the eventual home for these assets. a base of this size will / should be able to accomodate 5 combat squadrons.
> 
> 
> 
> brand spanking new!
> 
> 
> 
> my face has gone blue stating that the J-10 will NOT be inducted bcuz of engine issues. *as long as the J-10 is powered by a russian engine, you will not see this type in PAF colors. so lets hope the chinese can get the kinks out of their WS series engines sooner than later. *- thus the push for more F-16's. the US owes us 14 a/c and that is our line in our discussions. give us 14 new or 14 EDA.



well lets hope so...so according to you we will be looking for J-10 equipped with WS-10 series not the Al-31 FP...hmm interesting
wonder what the problem is
Re-export issues??
or AL-31 FP aint that reliable or somethin....

Anyways being a lil positive now this means that the FC-20 will have TVC if what you say is correct...Chinese development speed is beyond belief...and we still have over 3 years to prepare for the MMRCA (if all goes as planned...which in the case of India is not usually the case)


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## fatman17

abdulbarijan said:


> well lets hope so...so according to you we will be looking for J-10 equipped with WS-10 series not the Al-31 FP...hmm interesting
> wonder what the problem isRe-export issues??
> or AL-31 FP aint that reliable or somethin....
> 
> Anyways being a lil positive now this means that the FC-20 will have TVC if what you say is correct...Chinese development speed is beyond belief...and we still have over 3 years to prepare for the MMRCA (if all goes as planned...which in the case of India is not usually the case)



the russians have denied the licence to produce the engine in china as well as re-export (so far)


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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day&#8220;The probability of survival is equal to the angle of arrival.&#8221; 
-- Unknown*


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## Donatello

How can JFT be based at Shahbaz AB? Didn't Americans want no Chinese assets and personal around their BLK 52s??


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## mdcp

We should never trust USA, what they did in 1971 if their support arrived in time there was no seperation of Pakistan, after 1998 sanctions etc they almost left us defencless even israelies came to indian to jointly attack us, but thanks God cuz of nucelear power india back out, so we should in future try to develop and upgrade jf17 and other new planes rather than any us war machine and in next decade f16 will be obsolete, first they make too much profit and make us cry also, so pls no more f16

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

mdcp said:


> We should never trust USA, what they did in 1971 if their support arrived in time there was no seperation of Pakistan, after 1998 sanctions etc they almost left us defencless even israelies came to indian to jointly attack us, but thanks God cuz of nucelear power india back out, so we should in future try to develop and upgrade jf17 and other new planes rather than any us war machine and in next decade f16 will be obsolete, first they make too much profit and make us cry also, so pls no more f16



A country where they pass open resolution to break up Pakistan with Balouchista issue is no friend of Pakistan

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## HellRider

but that is the same country all of our top leadership love to be, no matter what national interests are!


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> How can JFT be based at Shahbaz AB? Didn't Americans want no Chinese assets and personal around their BLK 52s??



JFT is a PK asset. we dont need chinese personnel at shabaz. chinese engineers are restricted to PAC-Kamra.

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## nomi007

can Pakistan manufactured spare parts in future if USA impose sanctions ?

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## Last Hope

nomi007 said:


> can Pakistan manufactured spare parts in future if USA impose sanctions ?



About Block 52, definitely not. About the others, I guess the minor parts can be replaced, but I'm not sure.


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## soul hacker

Pakistan Air Force F-16C/D with Aim-120, CTF and JHMDS


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## Last Hope

soul hacker said:


> Pakistan Air Force F-16C/D with Aim-120, CTF and JHMDS



Poor reporting. Sorry, I blame the one who initially posted this from the source you got.
It is a *F-16C* in the first picture and *F-16D* in the latter(Not C/D as people generally tend to write it that way) with *CFT* (Not CTF).
It was carrying a AIM-120C5, AIM-9M, GBU-31 (JDAM) and another 500KG laser-guided munition, I cannot recall.

The helmet, HMD, is not 'JHMDS' it is 'JHMCS' standing for 'Joint Helmet Mounted Cuing System'.

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## TOPGUN

Last Hope said:


> Poor reporting. Sorry, I blame the one who initially posted this from the source you got.
> It is a *F-16C* in the first picture and *F-16D* in the latter(Not C/D as people generally tend to write it that way) with *CFT* (Not CTF).
> It was carrying a AIM-120C5, AIM-9M, GBU-31 (JDAM) and another 500KG laser-guided munition, I cannot recall.
> 
> The helmet, HMD, is not 'JHMDS' it is 'JHMCS' standing for 'Joint Helmet Mounted Cuing System'.




Good correction Last Hope however atleast he tried yaar  cut him some slack lolz.

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## mdcp

I think we never again trust americans, its better we just sell these F16s and buy some superior planes fron china or develop with
China, turkey,pakistan, malaysia, joint venture

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## Peaceful Civilian

mdcp said:


> I think we never again trust americans, its better we just sell these F16s and buy some superior planes fron china or develop with
> China, turkey,pakistan, malaysia, joint venture


I think We can't sell F16s without the permission of U.S.A, This is against the T.O.S if we sell it with out Thier permission.
F16s are good bird.
Only problem is that spare parts may be not sanction prone.
Otherwise i like these birds.

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## Last Hope

TOPGUN said:


> Good correction Last Hope however atleast he tried yaar  cut him some slack lolz.


The first line was for the person who posted this on social networking sites, as I have seen this earlier, corrected the mistakes, but the person apparently did not correct his mistakes.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

F16 are tainted , assets I don't trust its avionics or weapons fire control systems


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## ejaz007

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> F16 are tainted , assets I don't trust its avionics or weapons fire control systems


 
At times I do get the impression that people at defence.pk are a lot smarter than the ones sitting at the air headquarters. Perhaps we should include some from this forum in the next negotiations for a fighter deal. Then we shall see how quickly we close the deal and what we actually get.

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## nomi007

i think paf now work on spare parts manufacturing in pakistan


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## soul hacker

Last Hope said:


> The first line was for the person who posted this on social networking sites, as I have seen this earlier, corrected the mistakes, but the person apparently did not correct his mistakes.


 
thanks for correction but i post this because i want to know that we didn't have JHMCS up till but there is something different?


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## Last Hope

soul hacker said:


> thanks for correction but i post this because i want to know that we didn't have JHMCS up till but there is something different?



Pakistan doesn't even have a ZDK-03. 
Pakistan didn't have any AIM-120. 

Hope you get what I mean.

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## soul hacker

Last Hope said:


> Poor reporting. Sorry, I blame the one who initially posted this from the source you got.
> It is a *F-16C* in the first picture and *F-16D* in the latter(Not C/D as people generally tend to write it that way) with *CFT* (Not CTF).
> It was carrying a AIM-120C5, AIM-9M, GBU-31 (JDAM) and another 500KG laser-guided munition, I cannot recall.
> 
> The helmet, HMD, is not 'JHMDS' it is 'JHMCS' standing for 'Joint Helmet Mounted Cuing System'.



i know it is CFT and JHMCS but i didn't notice because i'm surprised by JHMCS!!



Last Hope said:


> Pakistan doesn't even have a ZDK-03.
> Pakistan didn't have any AIM-120.
> 
> Hope you get what I mean.



SORRY i did not get it elaborate a bit...


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## Insaan



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## Last Hope

*The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will receive 18 F-16 block 52 aircraft from Lockheed Martin later this month as part of a foreign military sale (FMS) of 36 F-16C/D block 50/52 aircraft announced in June 2005.

Under the US-Pakistan F-16 programme, Lockheed was awarded a contract for 12 F-16C and six F-16D block 52 aircraft in December 2006. The delivery comes at a time when military aid for Pakistan has been almost completely halted by the US in the wake of a series of crises affecting the bilateral relationship between the two nations.*

Date: Jan 21, 2012.
Source: Asia Defence News.

We are getting more sources and more concrete to confirm that 36 F-16s are present at Shahbaz Base.
Still, no official word yet. I did see F-16s flying for 3 continuous nights, from 17 Jan, but it was out of context as I saw them over Lahore, not Jacobabad.


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## nomi007

Hi Guys!

I notice that The Pakistani F-16A/B use a slightly different color compared to standard F-16's colors( H305, H306, H307 & H308 in gunze paint code).

What is the fs number for this color perhap in Gunze paint code? Or it's just my eyes?
some pictures are

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## untitled

Insaan said:


>



What missile is that on the wing tips ?


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## SQ8

pdf_shurtah said:


> What missile it that on the wing tips ?



Smoke winders.
Airshow niceties.

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## epinephrine

nomi007 said:


> Hi Guys!
> 
> I notice that The Pakistani F-16A/B use a slightly different color compared to standard F-16's colors( H305, H306, H307 & H308 in gunze paint code).
> 
> What is the fs number for this color perhap in Gunze paint code? Or it's just my eyes?
> some pictures are



atleast americans have allowed us to use paint scheme of our own choice

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## airmarshal

epinephrine said:


> atleast americans have allowed us to use paint scheme of our own choice


For PAF F-16, use Gunze H306 for the whole fuselage and H305 for the dark color. Are those colors available in Pakistan?


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## CallsignAlzaeem

Oil painting of PAF F-16D Block 52+ over Jacobabad by Rehan Siraj.

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## nomi007

ejaz007 said:


> At times I do get the impression that people at defence.pk are a lot smarter than the ones sitting at the air headquarters. Perhaps we should include some from this forum in the next negotiations for a fighter deal. Then we shall see how quickly we close the deal and what we actually get.


EVERY MEMBER THINK THAT HE HAVE MIND BUT PERSON IN AIRFORCE CHOOSES WRONG
THEY NEVER THOUGH THAT THEY ARE BEST


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## Patriot

nomi007 said:


> EVERY MEMBER THINK THAT HE HAVE MIND BUT PERSON IN AIRFORCE CHOOSES WRONG
> THEY NEVER THOUGH THAT THEY ARE BEST


Yes Bro - They should listen to smart people here - They should get rid of F-16's and buy modern Khota Garis to fight India...
You people keep repeating same JF chinese bs again and again.Jf-17's wont stand a chance against SU30's.Why don't you people just understand this point?F-16's are essential for defence against SU30.What other jets you think Pakistan could field?JF-17 - Won't be able to fight alone - Rafale and Eurofight Pakistan could not afford.So without F-16's Pakistan would have been BVR-LESS and deprived of the most potent BVR Missile ( AIM 120).

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## Free Soul

Using Block specific naming convention for F-16s sometimes confuses the subtle differences between one same block range (F-16 variants)(case being F-16 C/D Block 50/52/Plus) &#8211; Most probably this has already been posted in the forum but it becomes hard to navigate through 100s upon hundreds of Posts and threads to find what one is looking for, so I thought would be nice to share what is my understanding in the differentiating between the Variations of F-16 Block 50, 52 and 52+
Obviously there has to be a reason for calling one Block 50 another Block 52 and yet another Block 52+.

*F-16C/D Block 50 and 52*

The aircraft are equipped with improved GPS/INS, and the aircraft can carry a further batch of advanced missiles: the AGM-88 HARM missile, JDAM, JSOW and WCMD.
Carries a APG-68(V9) radar,
Power plant wise difference is that a Block 50 aircraft would carry the F110-GE-129 engine while the Block 52 jet would use the F100-PW-229.

*F-16C/D Block 52 Plus*

This variant, which is also known as the Block 52+. Its main differences are the addition of support for conformal fuel tanks (CFTs), a dorsal spine compartment on F-16 D 52+, the APG-68(V9) radar, an On-Board Oxygen Generation (OBOGS) system and a JHMCS helmet.
All two-seat "Plus" aircraft have the enlarged avionics dorsal spine compartment. The dorsal fairing was designed, mocked up, fabricated and installed during regular routine assembly while these aircraft were on the production line in Fort Worth. The dorsal spine is believed to accommodate Wild Weasel equipment (amongst others Elisra's SPS-3000 self-protection jammer) for Israeli F-16s, which detects emissions from enemy radar sites and pinpoints their locations, and specialized weapon delivery systems, such as 'smart bombs' guided using the back seat's side stick for control. Israeli Air force only confirms that it has various electronic systems (think they did not confirm Wild Weasel equipment).

The Block 52 Plus is a version which has special provisions for the adverse weather delivery of the Boeing JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munition). The update includes an add-on tail unit containing a synthetic aperture radar, providing guidance to 1,000lbs Mk.83, 2,000lbs Mk.84 and the 2,000lbs BLU-109 warhead.
F-16 52 Plus is also powered by F100-PW-229.

*Content references : *
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article9.html
Cheil Ha'avir Israel Defense Force/Air Force - IDF/AF

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## Last Hope

Without the Block 52s and MLU F-16s, Pakistan won't have the lead in the region in BVR technology. 
AIM-120C is better than the BVR missiles India uses. Without those, our chances are minimized. 

JF-17 is getting mature so is J-10B. It will take time for them to be as capable as the F-16 and get better variants of SD-10 and better BVR capability. We cannot wait for that day to come, likely to be after three years. F-16s are essential. 14 more F-16Cs are heading to Pakistan in December 2012 making the total Block 52s to be around 50. (18+18+14).

With these and MLU updates, PAF gets a might over Su-30s in BVR technology and would allow more time for JF-17 and J-10B to get mature and enter service in large numbers, including setting up two other production lines of JF-17 as planned.

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## TOPGUN

Last Hope said:


> Without the Block 52s and MLU F-16s, Pakistan won't have the lead in the region in BVR technology.
> AIM-120C is better than the BVR missiles India uses. Without those, our chances are minimized.
> 
> JF-17 is getting mature so is J-10B. It will take time for them to be as capable as the F-16 and get better variants of SD-10 and better BVR capability. We cannot wait for that day to come, likely to be after three years. F-16s are essential. 14 more F-16Cs are heading to Pakistan in December 2012 making the total Block 52s to be around 50. (18+18+
> 
> With these and MLU updates, PAF gets a might over Su-30s in BVR technology and would allow more time for JF-17 and J-10B to get mature and enter service in large numbers, including setting up two other production lines of JF-17 as planned.



Last Hope in all due respect bro do you have any valid proof or source for the extra 14 blk 52's coming our way in dec 2012? and how is it 18+18 ? when we have only gotten 18 there is no actual proof of us having all 36 only rumors?


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## Last Hope

TOPGUN said:


> Last Hope in all due respect bro do you have any valid proof or source for the extra 14 blk 52's coming our way in dec 2012? and how is it 18+18 ? when we have only gotten 18 there is no actual proof of us having all 36 only rumors?



TOPGUN.

Sir, you are one of the most reputed member on the forum. I hope you do understand.
There are multiple independent sources including journalists who have been to Shahbaz Airbase and officers from Shahbaz Airbase who have been confirming this, though the mystery remains on why PAF is refusing to accept or deny the claims. I was told by a ground personnel about 36 Block 52+ of which 18 were delivered in late January.

About the 14 F-16Cs, I posted it from a source but apparently Oscar deleted my post. A highly senior member of the forum_ (I will not quote him)_ told me privately about PAF ordering 14 F-16Cs and I found a news of 27 March stating PAF ordering 14 F-16Cs. 

So in short, all the pieces of puzzle show the same picture, 50 Block 52+ by the start of 2013 but it is just a assumption hanging on a piece of thread. I know I should believe this because I strongly trust my sources, who are stationed alongst the Block 52+.

*

[EDIT: Correction. The new about 14 F-16s to arrive Pakistan by the end of this year, was messed up by the reporter or the person who wrote the article. Those are supposed to be the 14 F-16s built for Pakistan but given to USN. Thank you. Sorry for the dilemma.]*

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## chichora

Last Hope said:


> TOPGUN.
> 
> Sir, you are one of the most reputed member on the forum. I hope you do understand.
> There are multiple independent sources including journalists who have been to Shahbaz Airbase and officers from Shahbaz Airbase who have been confirming this, though the mystery remains on why PAF is refusing to accept or deny the claims. I was told by a ground personnel about 36 Block 52+ of which 18 were delivered in late January.
> 
> About the 14 F-16Cs, I posted it from a source but apparently Oscar deleted my post. A highly senior member of the forum_ (I will not quote him)_ told me privately about PAF ordering 14 F-16Cs *and I found a news of 27 March stating PAF ordering 14 F-16Cs. *
> 
> So in short, all the pieces of puzzle show the same picture, 50 Block 52+ by the start of 2013 but it is just a assumption hanging on a piece of thread. I know I should believe this because I strongly trust my sources, who are stationed alongst the Block 52+.


the news which you are posting about 14 more f-16s is 2 years old and to be delivered by the end of 2010 not by the end of 2012


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## TOPGUN

Last Hope said:


> TOPGUN.
> 
> Sir, you are one of the most reputed member on the forum. I hope you do understand.
> There are multiple independent sources including journalists who have been to Shahbaz Airbase and officers from Shahbaz Airbase who have been confirming this, though the mystery remains on why PAF is refusing to accept or deny the claims. I was told by a ground personnel about 36 Block 52+ of which 18 were delivered in late January.
> 
> About the 14 F-16Cs, I posted it from a source but apparently Oscar deleted my post. A highly senior member of the forum_ (I will not quote him)_ told me privately about PAF ordering 14 F-16Cs and I found a news of 27 March stating PAF ordering 14 F-16Cs.
> 
> So in short, all the pieces of puzzle show the same picture, 50 Block 52+ by the start of 2013 but it is just a assumption hanging on a piece of thread. I know I should believe this because I strongly trust my sources, who are stationed alongst the Block 52+.




Last Hope brother thx for kind words... and i know what you mean i guess we will just have to wait and see what's under the hat and what more will come to the hat  thx again for repling good job.


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## SQ8

Last Hope said:


> TOPGUN.
> 
> 
> *So in short, all the pieces of puzzle show the same picture, 50 Block 52+ by the start of 2013 but it is just a assumption hanging on a piece of thread. I know I should believe this because I strongly trust my sources, who are stationed alongst the Block 52+.
> *



You are confusing multiple reports of the same event due to varying timelines.
There are still 14 F-16's that are owed by the US to Pakistan.. Since the original 14 have been at the US naval air warfare centre at Fallon and deemed unacceptable by us.
It was the PAF's request that these numbers be made up by EDA F-16C models instead of F-16A's mothballed at AMARC.
The United States has on paper agreed to transfer this number but which birds, what block.. and when is still under negotiation and waiting approval. New build Block-52's are out of the question as they are expensive and neither us or the USG is willing to pay for it. 
The news you posted.. is all a repeat of this very transfer that is left to be made which is being reported by various sources as and when they hear it.
I can offer you my source's credentials.. but on PM only.

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## Free Soul

*Regarding Procurement of Peace Gate III/IV F-16s block 15OCU *

Peace Gate I F-16A Block-15 = 2 (Delivered)
Peace Gate I F-16B Block-15 = 4 (Delivered)
Peace Gate II F-16A Block-15 = 26 (Delivered)
Peace Gate II F-16B Block-15 = 8 (Delivered)
Peace Gate III/IV F-16A block 15OCU = 13 (Embargoed)
Peace Gate III/IV F-16B block 15OCU = 15 (Embargoed)

In total 28 paid-for aircrafts were undelivered after the embargo of early 1990s, Pakistan had already paid $685 million for these aircrafts.
We got back 14 of these Peace Gate III/IV F-16s block 15OCU

*They were never deemed unworthy or unfit for induction by PAF * nor by anyone else for that matter; rather Pakistan always argued that it is completely unfair on part of US to not make the delivery.
they were put in 'Flyable Hold' for 5 years, during which time 85% of each aircraft's fuel system was preserved with JP-9, and each aircraft had its engine run once every 45 days. The Airframe remained in almost mint condition, Airframe only aged 6 hours. This low air-time figure, plus the fact that these aircraft are the most modern F-16A/B's built, is the main reason why countries interested in second-hand F-16s first look at the Pakistani airframes. That is why in March 96 US sold these aircrafts to Indonesia and later in 1998 to New Zealand &#8211; but lucky for us the sales did not go through.

When the deal for new block 52+ was made in Sept 30/06 the *USA also agreed to deliver 26 of the &#8220;Peace Gate III/IV&#8221; F-16A/B Block 15OCUs that had been ordered in 1988-1989*. After the embargo, the planes had been diverted for use as aggressor combat training aircraft by USAF and the US Navy. That was done in 2002 when US stopped trying to sell these aircrafts to other countries.

*In 2006 deal Pakistan had requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits, why 60?*
Remember till 2006 when this deal was reached PAF had lost 8 of its F-16s out of total 40 PG I/II aircrafts, so PAF was left with 32 at the time of new deal, 28 were our Embargoed F-16 still with US (USAF and US Navy) so it was understood plain and simple that *60 MLU kit = for 32 F-16 Block 15 PGI/II + 28 F-16 block 15OCU PG III/IV *. To my understanding Pakistan wasn&#8217;t paying upfront for an engraved on a stone 60 MLU kits rather payments made in batches, but deal was with an understanding of up to 60 kits/upgrades.

InsideDefense.com made an interesting observation that Pakistan doesn&#8217;t have 60 F-16s to upgrade. The clear implication is that the Pakistani government is interested in buying either used F-16s and upgrading them or Pakistan will be receiving the undelivered F-16 block 15 from Peace Gate III/IV and then upgrade them.

Later these Aircrafts &#8211; *by the efforts of Gen Musharraf and Air Chief Tanveer Ahmed * - were declared *Excess Defence Articles[*]* by US. And thus PAF initially got 14 of our 28 embargoed F-16 Back with a MLU kit ready for the upgrade in process.

_[*]The Defense Security Cooperation Agency is responsible for administering the Department of Defense's Excess Defense Articles (EDA) program. Working under authorities established in the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 and the Arms Export Control Act, defense articles declared as excess by the Military Departments can be offered to foreign governments or international organizations in support of U. S. national security and foreign policy objectives. Typically, EDA is transferred to support U. S. allies in their modernization efforts_

*Air Chief Marshal Tanveer Ahmed*

*&#8220;More recently we got some of these aeroplanes (F-16 block 15OCU - Peace Gate III/IV), after 9/11 I continued to insist on the US Air Chief that I need these aeroplanes, they are my aircrafts, they were built for us and we have a sentimental attachment with them. Of course they were very sparingly used so I want them back. So he was very kind, he agreed and finally these aircrafts were declared Excess Defence Articles and we almost got them for nothing. These 14 aircrafts &#8211; 12 are in our country, 2 are with Lockheed Martin for upgrade, the 14 (remaining) aircrafts that are with US Navy they are my aircrafts with them, I continue to claim them, I am sure one day we will be able to get them too.&#8220;*

First 1 min 12 secs on the Peace Gate III/IV F-16s

Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed Interview - September 7, 2008 - YouTube

Content references:
Pakistan In Line for Massive Arms Deal
$5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s
http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/F-16/mishaps-and-accidents/airforce/PAF/
Asia Times Online :: South Asia news - Pakistan heading for a crackdown
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article14.html
http://www.dod.mil/dodgc/olc/docs/

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## MastanKhan

Free Soul said:


> *Regarding Procurement of Peace Gate III/IV F-16s block 15OCU *
> 
> Peace Gate I F-16A Block-15 = 2 (Delivered)
> Peace Gate I F-16B Block-15 = 4 (Delivered)
> 
> Hi,
> 
> This seems to be old video.


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## MZUBAIR

Please "like", if u have seen this pic first time

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## Free Soul

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This seems to be old video.



Yep its an old video - just wanted to put in one place on what has happened regarding our old F-16 Block 15s Delivered and Embargoed, the MLUs, how many of Peace Gate III/IV F-16s we can confirm that we got back till now. and the understanding of buying 60 MLUs was with an idea that we gono get all our Embargoed F-16s back, 14 we got, rest we will keep our fingers crossed. the 14 left with US Navy have not been declared EDA by US yet i think...

these embargoed F-16 were latest Block 15 made at that time, had very little flying hours done, engines were run once every 45 days. Air frames were in almost mint condition , So the argument by some guys here that Pakistan deemed these block 15s unacceptable in my opinion seems wrong.

cheers.


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## Last Hope

PAF F-16C 10904 entered service on November 20, 2010.


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## VelocuR

Last Hope said:


> PAF F-16C 10904 entered service on November 20, 2010.



Brother, let me clarify for you. The picture above you posted#10904 at Lajes Field, Azores, Portugal is already delivered to Pakistan.  

http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-database/view_airframes_bysearch/key/PAF/actype/F-16/startnum/121



> Delivery of Seventeen F-16C/D Block 52 to Pakistan was made in four batches:
> 
> First batch of three Block-52 F-16s delivered to Pakistan on June 26, 2010 were:
> 1 x single-seater F-16C (aircraft serial# 10902)
> 2 x two-seater F-16D (aircraft serial# 10804 and 10805)
> 
> Second batch of three Block-52 F-16s delivered to Pakistan on October 30, 2010 were:
> 2 x single-seater F-16C (aircraft serial# 10905 and 10906)
> 1 x two-seater F-16D (aircraft serial# 10806)
> 
> Third batch of six Block-52 F-16s delivered to Pakistan on November 20, 2010 were:
> 5 x single-seater F-16C (aircraft serial# 10904, 10907, 10908, 10909 and 10910)
> 1 x two-seater F-16D (aircraft serial# 10803)
> 
> Fourth batch of five Block-52 F-16s delivered to Pakistan on December 13, 2010 were:
> 4 x single-seater F-16C (aircraft serial# 10901, 10903, 10911 and 10912)
> 1 x two-seater F-16D (aircraft serial# 10802)













PAF F-16C block 52 #10904 is seen just after landing at Lajes Field, Azores during a stopover before delivery to Pakistan on November 16th, 2010.

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## Last Hope

Raptor, what do you mean?
I clearly mentioned that it has entered services in PAF on November 20th, 2010.

It was just the beauty of the newly built bird that I was posting.


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## ziaulislam

well they were in good condition till 2002 after that they went into the aggressor unit..
also reports were there that US navy wasnt ready to release those F-16s


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## nomi007




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## Raftar

Sorry Mzubair has already posted


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

it's quite confusing , someone claims 36 and other one 18.
someone says 14 new f-16 coming , other says old ones.....
is there any reliable source.....
we have been in mess for more than 2 months now......


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## Last Hope

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> it's quite confusing , someone claims 36 and other one 18.
> someone says 14 new f-16 coming , other says old ones.....
> is there any reliable source.....
> we have been in mess for more than 2 months now......



Yes it is. In short:

18 F-16 Block 52+ are CONFIRMED by PAF.
18 more F-16 Block 52+ are confirmed by officers of PAF but no official word from anyone.
14 F-16s are old ones.


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

okz, mean news are still in air and no confirmation...


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## VelocuR

Last Hope said:


> Raptor, what do you mean?
> I clearly mentioned that it has entered services in PAF on November 20th, 2010.
> 
> It was just the beauty of the newly built bird that I was posting.



By judging the picture you posted gave me the impression that F-16s (#10904) without Pakistan flag hasn't been delievered yet, which is why I want to clarify. Yes, it is really beautiful MLUs upgrading but with CFT is more better and muscle!  Sorry for the confusion, I apologize.


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## air marshal

*Aviation Art by Humza Tariq*






*ABDUR RAZZAQ SHOOTS DOWN AN ELINT AN-26 March 30, 1987: PAF F-16A flown by Wing Commander Abdur Razzaq shoots down an ELINT AN-26. The enemy aircraft crashed on the snow-clad mountains below.*


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## Free Soul

REHAN NIAZI FALCON said:


> it's quite confusing , someone claims 36 and other one 18.
> someone says 14 new f-16 coming , other says old ones.....
> is there any reliable source.....
> we have been in mess for more than 2 months now......



stop moaning and do a bit of research. just do a simple wiki search... it says it all.. regarding old ones and ones that were in embargo check http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...tan-f-16-discussions-2-a-356.html#post2758283


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## ziaulislam

confusion has been created by different fan boys. there is no confusion.
we have confirmed 63 f-16s including 18 C/D.

rest 18 are not going to be brought due to lack of funds and better alternatives..
14 are under discussion through the EDA, as we did paid for them in the past and US has in principal agreed to release them. Most likly they will be released when they get there f-35s i think..

but delivery of those and if possible additional EDA ones will depend upon our and there political game

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## aliyusuf

The 14 EDA (used) F-16 Block-15s that we have already received are OCU's and by spec published in F-16.Net the OCU's are AMRAAM enabled. 

Can anyone confirm that the ones that we have received and are already in use for few years ... are AMRAAM enabled? Or was that capability switched off when given to Pakistan?

Just a query ... would appreciate some input on it.


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## Last Hope

aliyusuf said:


> The 14 EDA (used) F-16 Block-15s that we have already received are OCU's and by spec published in F-16.Net the OCU's are AMRAAM enabled.
> 
> Can anyone confirm that the ones that we have received and are already in use for few years ... are AMRAAM enabled? Or was that capability switched off when given to Pakistan?
> 
> Just a query ... would appreciate some input on it.



Ali.

The Block 52+ PAF operates are first air craft in PAF inventory capable of AMRAAM.
The MLU process enables older F-16s, Block 15, to be capable of operating AMRAAMs.


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## aliyusuf

Thanks for the input. 

The specs available in the Block15OCU section of the specs provided in F-16.net http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article3.html suggest that the Block-15OCU's have provision for AMRAAM.


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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day*
&#8220;Just as [my] missile left the rail the MiG [-21] executed a maximum G, tight turning, starboard break turn. He couldn't have seen me. Either his wingman called a break or his tail warning radar was working. I had an instantaneous plan view of him and he was really hauling... The missile couldn't handle it, exploding out of lethal range.&#8221; 
-- Commander Randy Duke Cunningham, USN

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## Last Hope

*
F-16 carrying six MK-82 four AIM-9.*
My guess is that, this picture is prior to the mission from a active squadron taking part in operation in South Waziristan.

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## Donatello

Last Hope said:


> *
> F-16 carrying six MK-82 four AIM-9.*
> My guess is that, this picture is prior to the mission from a active squadron taking part in operation in South Waziristan.




Four Aim 9s for a Air to Ground role, and that too in South Waziristan?


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## razgriz19

Donatello said:


> Four Aim 9s for a Air to Ground role, and that too in South Waziristan?



these are combat ready F-16s, they always carry four Aim-9.
in any given air force there are several fighters on high alert at all times and so im guessing its one of them for PAF..


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## Donatello

razgriz19 said:


> these are combat ready F-16s, they always carry four Aim-9.
> in any given air force there are several fighters on high alert at all times and so im guessing its one of them for PAF..



You don't go around intercepting planes with six ground bombs under your wings. Too much weight and drag.

If it is going for a bombing mission in South Waziristan where there is no danger of aerial threat, then no need to carry 4 Aim 9s. I think the standard procedure of most of PAF F-16s was to carry two Aim9s, one on each of the wing tips.


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## Edevelop

Last Hope said:


> *
> F-16 carrying six MK-82 four AIM-9.*
> My guess is that, this picture is prior to the mission from a active squadron taking part in operation in South Waziristan.



Why don't they (PAF) use Mirage V or F-7pgs for South Waziristan operation instead? If we use F-16s then we risk them getting shot and or against its flying hour life....


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## Tehmasib

A beautiful pic of pakistani viper ......new HD pic....share to respected pdf members

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## epinephrine

Last Hope said:


> *
> F-16 carrying six MK-82 four AIM-9.*
> My guess is that, this picture is prior to the mission from a active squadron taking part in operation in South Waziristan.



killing talibans with side winders????i dont understand.
i think they put on all those missiles for a photoshoot n after that they put the missiles back in the store.


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## Jango

epinephrine said:


> killing talibans with side winders????i dont understand.
> i think they put on all those missiles for a photoshoot n after that they put the missiles back in the store.



Exactly my thoguhts.

Sidewinders in Fata don't make much sense.


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## Edevelop

epinephrine said:


> killing talibans with side winders????i dont understand.
> i think they put on all those missiles for a photoshoot n after that they put the missiles back in the store.



Well you never know. These sidewinders might be there for U.S air force violation. Yeah i know i don't make 100% sense, but hey isn't F-16 a 'multirole' fighter? My guess is that it's probably in that tribal region to attack and to protect sovereignty.... Don't forget that we know who Pakistani Taliban is supported clearly by. Americans and Indians... right? We probably want to make sure no help comes by for them..


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## Last Hope

epinephrine said:


> killing talibans with side winders????i dont understand.
> i think they put on all those missiles for a photoshoot n after that they put the missiles back in the store.



It isn't a necessitous that these F-16s are going to attack in S.Waziristan against militants. Even if they are going to, Air-to-Air missiles are important as the tribal belt is close the the border and incase you get fighters from other side. A fighter never has bombs during interception mission, but carries Air-to-Air missiles during bombing missions. 

On a exact different scenario, this picture could be taken prior to a training/exercise mission.


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## Storm Force

Fantastic picture of a GREAT WAR PLANE thanks tehmasib


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## PakShaheen79

Last Hope said:


> *
> F-16 carrying six MK-82 four AIM-9.*
> My guess is that, this picture is prior to the mission from a active squadron taking part in operation in South Waziristan.



A normal exercise makes lots of sense but a strike in Waziristan is less likely with this payload. Reason: Absence of fuel tanks under wings, As F-16 would require to fly over that area. All six bombs cannot be for one target considering the shape, strength and structure of Taliban hideouts and lethal power of these bombs. Plus 4 AIM-9s makes no sense for these kind of operations in FATA.

Anyhow, loved the pic and thanks for sharing

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## fatman17

epinephrine said:


> killing talibans with side winders????i dont understand.
> i think they put on all those missiles for a photoshoot n after that they put the missiles back in the store.



why would this a/c carry 4 AIM-9 on a CAS mission. this pic is just to 'showcase' various load configs for the viper!



cb4 said:


> Why don't they (PAF) use Mirage V or F-7pgs for South Waziristan operation instead? If we use F-16s then we risk them getting shot and or against its flying hour life....



we have no idea which type of a/c is being used in WoT. it just may be that ALL types are being used.

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## epinephrine

PAF mostly uses F-16 in WOT.i have seen F-16s in swat n bajaur compaign.F-16 carries more payload n deliver it with accuracy than any other junk we have in our inventory.


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## ziaulislam

no in past A-5 were also used..i dont know about thunder being used or not..but many sources say they were also used 

u see we have to use f-16 to some extent to justify some deals we did with the us...especially the us supported/slightly funded f-16 upgrade deals..


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## Last Hope

Earlier the A-5s were used, followed by Mirages probably.
Now, F-16s are widely used with JDAMs and laser-guided munitions. Occasionally, JF-17 also takes parts in the attack, and afterall 38 JF-17s are placed at Peshawar and 12 are purely for air-to-ground role.


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## nomi007

it is better to take h-6k for bombing on terrorist at lease
avoid to use to f-16


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## epinephrine

PAF should use what is best in its inventory inorder to avoid collateral damage,complete the mission in the best possible way and to minimize the losses of ground forces.its our psyche that we always keep the lives of our countrymen at the last priority unfortunately


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## Last Hope

*I hid the name, rank and face for obvious reasons.*

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## SBD-3

ziaulislam said:


> no in past A-5 were also used..i dont know about thunder being used or not..but many sources say they were also used
> 
> u see we have to use f-16 to some extent to justify some deals we did with the us...especially the us supported/slightly funded f-16 upgrade deals..


The pictures of Thunders with PGMs (LS-6) being tested emerged later than the rumors of their usage in WoT. So for the usage of General Purpose Munition, I can say they could be used but that would made JFTs involvment very limited, But for precision attack, i am a bit sceptical.


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## Najam Khan

ziaulislam said:


> no in past A-5 were also used..i dont know about thunder being used or not..but many sources say they were also used
> 
> *u see we have to use f-16 to some extent to justify some deals we did with the u*s...especially the us supported/slightly funded f-16 upgrade deals..


 
Its not just that. F-16s are getting new life with MLUs, so its better to use them instead of wasting service life of Mirages or JF-17s.


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## soul hacker

Last Hope said:


> *I hid the name, rank and face for obvious reasons.*



i know him mr TOP GUN


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## SQ8

soul hacker said:


> i know him mr TOP GUN



The hairstyle is the giveaway.

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## TOPGUN

soul hacker said:


> i know him mr TOP GUN



Nice pix thx for sharing


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## soul hacker

Pakistani air force getting EW system

CAMDEN, N.J., April 4 (UPI) -- Pakistan's air force, through a U.S. Foreign Military Sales deal, is to receive defensive electronic warfare system from ITT Exelis.

Under the $54 million contract, ITT Exelis will provide its Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System, which integrates digital radar warning receivers and advanced jamming countermeasure systems for protection against surface-to-air and air-to-air weapon systems.

Both internal and external systems are now in production, the company said.

Under the FMS the external pod-mounted AIDEWS will be provided for 16 aircraft.

"This pod-mounted system brings electronic warfare technology to our customers at much less expense," said Rich Sorelle, vice president and general manager of the Exelis Integrated Electronic Warfare Systems business area.

"Since AIDEWS is being adopted by many of our international allies and is based on our modular and scalable EW technology, future upgrade costs are shared and affordable.

"Legacy and new F-16 aircraft fleets share the exact same components for internally mounted and external pod versions, significantly reducing the cost of ownership."





Pakistani air force getting EW system - UPI.com

At F-16 C/D Block 52+ takeoff from SHAHBAZ AIR BASE by Malik Muhammad Mohsin


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## epinephrine

soul hacker said:


> Pakistani air force getting EW system
> 
> CAMDEN, N.J., April 4 (UPI) -- Pakistan's air force, through a U.S. Foreign Military Sales deal, is to receive defensive electronic warfare system from ITT Exelis.
> 
> Under the $54 million contract, ITT Exelis will provide its Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System, which integrates digital radar warning receivers and advanced jamming countermeasure systems for protection against surface-to-air and air-to-air weapon systems.
> Both internal and external systems are now in production, the company said.
> 
> Under the FMS the external pod-mounted AIDEWS will be provided for 16 aircraft.
> 
> "This pod-mounted system brings electronic warfare technology to our customers at much less expense," said Rich Sorelle, vice president and general manager of the Exelis Integrated Electronic Warfare Systems business area.
> 
> "Since AIDEWS is being adopted by many of our international allies and is based on our modular and scalable EW technology, future upgrade costs are shared and affordable.
> 
> "Legacy and new F-16 aircraft fleets share the exact same components for internally mounted and external pod versions, significantly reducing the cost of ownership."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani air force getting EW system - UPI.com
> 
> At F-16 C/D Block 52+ takeoff from SHAHBAZ AIR BASE by Malik Muhammad Mohsin


 
will it be effective against AESA radars as most of the radar warning receivers r less effective against AESA radars?

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## fatman17

*Deal Updates and Progress*

*2012*
Optional short yearly wrap-up.

April 3/12: EW. ITT Exelis announces that $54 million has finalized a contract to provide Pakistan with some of its AIDEWS electronic warfare pods (vid. March 19/08, June 26/08, July 5/11, and July 20/11 entries). The 2008 contract had been for $78.2 million, and the July 2011 contract added $49.1 million, creating a current total of $181.3 million, plus over $9 million to integrate them with their F-16s AN/ALQ-231 central electronic warfare systems.

The ALQ-211 based Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System (AIDEWS) integrates digital radar warning receivers and advanced jamming countermeasures systems against radar-based threats, including modern surface-to-air and air-to-air weapon systems. It can be carried on a pod, as Pakistan is doing, or internally as the AN/ALQ-211v4.

Feb 6/12: New deliveries done. The PAF receives its 18th and final new F-16 Block 52, and its its first 2 Mid-Life Upgrade F-16s, at PAF Shahbaz airbase. The last new F-16 was an F-16D that had remained in the US for testing & trials. F-16.net.


*2011*
Optional short yearly wrap-up.
July 30/11: J-10s. The PAF will be flying a squadron of Chinese J-10B fighters alongside its F-16s, as a gift from China. The official offer was reportedly presented to the Pakistan Armys Chief of General Staff, Lt. Gen. Waheed Arshad, during a week-long visit to Beijing.

The Chinese have also pledged 50 co-developed JF-17 Thunder fighters in recent months, but the J-10Bs are different because they offer total performance on par with, or even superior to, the PAFs new F-16C/D Block 52 fighter standard. Pakistan Kakhuda Hafiz | Economic Times of India | Defense Update | DefenseWorld.

July 29/11: Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co. in Fort Worth, TX receives a $42.3 million firm-fixed-price and cost-plus-fixed-fee contract for 10 additional Pakistan F-16 A/B Block 15 Aircraft Enhanced Modernization Program kits. The ASC/WWMK at Wright-Patterson AFB, OH manages the contract on behalf of its foreign Military Sale client (FA8615-07-C-6032, PO 0038). 

July 26/11: Fragile alliance. At the US House Foreign Affairs Committees hearings on Reassessing American Grand Strategy in South Asia, John J. Tkacik, the U.S. Department of State Bureau of Intelligence and Researchs Former Chief of China Analysis, submits The Enemy of Hegemony is My Friend: Pakistans de facto Alliance with China [PDF]. Key excerpt:


China has always been Pakistans most important strategic ally,2 and the intensity of Pakistans relationship with the United States has always been a subset of Pakistans all-consuming strategic calculus about India. For the United States to achieve a true strategic partnership with Pakistan, it must share Pakistans posture toward India. It follows, then, that subduing India also demands acquiescing in Chinas ultimate hegemony in Asia. In reassessing Americas grand strategy in South Asia, the United States must first reassess its global grand strategy. If America can live with an Asia under Chinese hegemony, and with a crippled India, then America can have Pakistans enthusiastic partnership against the Taliban. Decisions like this are, as they say, above my pay grade.

July 22/11: Training. L-3 Communications Link Simulation and Training division in Arlington, TX receives a $20.6 million firm-fixed-price contract for 1 aircrew training system (ATS) to support Pakistan air force F-16 pilot training. Work will be performed at Arlington, Texas, overseen by ASC/WNSK at Wright-Patterson AFB, OH, on behalf of their Pakistani FMS client. Both simulators, scheduled for delivery in 2013, will be installed and networked at the PAFs Shahbaz Air Base.

The ATS consists of 2 upgraded F-16 ATS devices with an 18 panel simusphere for 360 degree viewing: a new F-16A Block 15/52 ATS; and a less flexible new F-16C Block 52 ATS. The contract also includes 21 months contractor logistics support (12 months on-site and 9 months on-call); common ATS Block 15 and Block 52 software load; high fidelity cockpit; 360 horizontal X250; version MMC 7000 hardware and software; geo-specific database of Pakistan with high resolution features; full simulation of the APG-68v9 radar with digital radar land mass simulation; full weapons simulation incl. Maverick missile, targeting pod, JHMCS helmet mounted sights; threat environment A-G and spot jamming simulation; emergency procedures and malfunctions simulation; and an instructor-operator station to make pilots lives difficult in pre-planned ways. Fort Worth Star-Telegram | Pakistans The Nation.

July 20/11: EW. Georgia Tech Applied Research Corp. in Atlanta, GA receiveds a $9.2 million cost-plus-fixed-fee Foreign Military Sales contract to integrate ITTs AN/ALQ-211v9 AIDEW pod and software into Pakistans existing AN/ALQ-213 [PDF] countermeasures set from Terma. The ALQ-213 CMS electronic warfare suite provides centralized control/resources management of the F-16s defensive suites, so the pod and CMS controller need to work together. 

Work will be performed in Atlanta, GA, and is expected to be complete by July 2014. The ESG/PKS DTIC at Offutt AFB, NB, manages the contract on behalf of its FMS client (HC1047-05-D-4000). 

July 19/11: The US GAO releases report #GAO-11-786R: Pakistan Assistance: Relatively Little of the $3 Billion in Requested Assistance is Subject to States Certification of Pakistans Progress on Nonproliferation and Counterterrorism Issues.

July 9/11: After the USA finds and kills Osama Bin Laden, Pakistans intelligence agency murders a journalist and expels American military trainers. In response, the USA delays and may cancel about $800 million in military aid and equipment, or about 40% of its annual total. 

US officials say that the F-16s are unaffected. Instead, the blockage involves about $300 million to reimburse Pakistan for some of the costs of deploying more than 100,000 soldiers along the Afghan border, hundreds of millions of dollars in training assistance and military hardware like rifles, ammunition, body armor and bomb-disposal gear that were part of the expelled training effort, and items like radios, night-vision goggles and helicopter spare parts, where Pakistan has denied visas to the American personnel needed to operate the equipment. Less double-dealing with terrorists would reportedly free up this aid, but Pakistans response is that theyll rely on China to make up the gap. ABC News | CBS News | NY Times.

July 5/11: EW. ITT Systems Corp. in Clifton, NJ receives a not to exceed $49.1 million firm-fixed-price contract for the ALQ-211v9 AIDEW Pod, which was picked as the electronic countermeasures choice for Pakistans new F-16C/D Block 52s, and is also on the list for its upgraded F-16s. This award fits the new fighter order, and includes 18 pods, 4 pod shells, 2 antenna coupler sets, 2 lab test benches, associated data, and systems software and support equipment. 

Work will be performed at Clifton, N.J. This contract is a Foreign Military Sales requirement for Pakistan, managed by the WR-ALC/GRWKBat Robins Air Force Base, GA (FA8540-11-C-0012). See also June 26/08 entry.

May 1/11: Osama Bin Laden is killed in a US Navy SEAL raid, which happens without notifying Pakistan. As a result, Osama is actually present in Abbotabad when the SEALs arrive, living comfortably about a mile from Pakistans top military college.

March 1/11: Aviation Week reports that Pakistan is in negotiations with the U.S. to get more Lockheed Martin F-16s over and above the 63 currently in service (18 F-16C/D Block 52, 45 F-16A/B Blocck 15/OCU that will be upgraded). No numbers have been specified, by Pakistani officials see it as part of a dual-track strategy that will also include more spending on domestic projects like the JF-17 Thunder, to improve Pakistans own manufacturing capacity.

At present, PAF Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleman says that 4 F-16A/Bs went to the USA for technical verification inspections and upgrade kit development, and the 1st 3 F-16A/Bs are now undergoing the upgrade at Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). All of Pakistans F-16s are expected to be upgraded by 2013-2014. At present, no systems exist that would bridge the F-16 and JF-17 fleets, but Air Chief Marshall Suleman says that Pakistan intends to eventually field a supplementary datalink, which would work alongside the Link 16 systems carried by the F-16s.

The comments come as the Pakistani military is also discussing a deal to buy Chinese submarines as a supplement to their French Agosta-class boats, as an intended prelude to joint submarine development. These plans are all being made against a backdrop of a serious domestic insurgency and widespread flooding damage, which have combined to create over 1 million internal refugees, and threaten the governments medium term ability to maintain control of the country. Even as the state is very obviously fraying in other ways.

Jan 20/11: DB-110. Goodrich Corporation of Chelmsford, MA receives a $71.9 million contract for 5 DB-110 Pods, 2 datalink upgrades to existing pods, 2 fixed ground stations, 1 mobile ground station, and 4 ground station datalink receiver kits, plus initial spares, technical manuals, minimal initial engineering support for final in-country installation, integration, testing and a study for a potential fusion center. This supports Pakistani F-16 aircraft. At this time, $17.3 million has been committed by the ASC/WINK at Wright-Patterson Air Force, OH on behalf of their Foreign Military Sale client (FA8620-11-C-3006).

The DB-110 reconnaissance pod offers day and night capabilities, and has been ordered by a number of F-16 customers, including Egypt, Greece, Morocco, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, and the UAE. DB-110s were not mentioned in the DSCA upgrade requests, but they are clearly part of that effort now. Reports indicate that installations began in June 2010; this is apparently a follow-on order. A Jan 12/11 US FedBizOpps solicitation for associated imagery analysis training is a useful reminder that buying the pods is not enough to field a useful capability. See also Aviation Week re: DB-110.

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## IceCold

fatman17 said:


> *Optional short yearly wrap-up.
> July 30/11: J-10s. The PAF will be flying a squadron of Chinese J-10B fighters alongside its F-16s, as a gift from China. The official offer was reportedly presented to the Pakistan Armys Chief of General Staff, Lt. Gen. Waheed Arshad, during a week-long visit to Beijing.*


*

When did this happen sir and whats the latest development on J-10 front regarding the above?*


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## epinephrine

r we getting more blk 50 F-16s or not? this link suggests no more F-16s for pak
http://f-16.net/news_article4541.html


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

i don,t think j-10b is gona be ready in the near future.
till then f-16 is gona be our main stay .....


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## Last Hope

epinephrine said:


> r we getting more blk 50 F-16s or not? this link suggests no more F-16s for pak
> http://f-16.net/news_article4541.html


 
No. No more Block 52+ for PAF. The earlier F-16s will be given Mid-Life Update which will make then BVR capable, and hence would meet the requirement, even when the J-10Bs are induced.

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## Najam Khan

*Maintenance Programs of Pakistani Falcons*
Posted on April 5, 2012 by Najam Khan

Pakistan Air Force (PAF) inducted F-16 Fighting Falcon in January 1983. This provided a quantum leap to the PAF. It was PAFs first experience of handling such a modern day fighter aircraft. From 1986 to 1988 F-16s participated in air defence missions carried out in Afghan War (1979-1988). F-16s played a vital role in guarding the western borders of Pakistan from Soviet/Afghan intruding aircraft. During the war PAF flew a total of 10,939 sorties and logged 13,275 hours.

This extreme usage of F-16s in the start of its career raised serious questions about its service life in coming decades. PAF went for development of in-house facilities for maintenance and overhaul of F-16 components. A F-16 Upgrade Cell was established at Sargodha Air Base. This cell was capable of performing depot level structural and avionics related modifications in the F-16s. These modifications include Operational Capability Upgrade (OCU), 479 Bulk Head Replacement Module and Wing box modifications.

In 1989, Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra was assigned the task of overhauling the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200 turbofan engine that powers the F-16 fleet in PAF service. The F-16s structural modifications were made in engine, fuselage, ailerons and flaps. These structural modifications were a part of its type extension program. Reinforcement plates were also added on the fuselage to strengthen the structural integrity of the F-16s, thus extending its service life.

MRF has also upgraded the F100 engine from 200 to 220E configuration. The -220Econfiguration provides better performance and greater reliability. Up to 26 modifications were made in F-100 engines modules including fan, engine core, fuel nozzles, gearbox, high pressure turbineetc
Improvement in the service life of various F-100 modules is as follows:

Fan Module 1800-4000 Hours
Core Module 4000 Hours
Turbine 3500 Hours
Augmentor Module 4000 Hours
Gearbox Module 4000 Hours

The repair, up-gradation and overhaul of F-100 Engine, replacement of wing and fuselage fuel cells are also carried out by MRF. MRF has been certified for aircraft painting and de-painting as well.The F-16s avionics, structural and engine related modifications allowed the PAF to maintain a high level of readiness despite U.S. sanctions and arms embargo from the West and did not hamper the operational preparedness of the fighting force during both times of peace and war.
Over the years,F-16s have participated in various multinational exercises around the globe. The devoted ground crew has always ensured the combat ready status of these falcons. F-16s participation in counter insurgency operations in Global War on Terror are the recent example of their combat record.

In June 2009, PAF, Lockheed Martin and United States Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) signed a contract of Mid Life Update (MLU) of these F-16s. Under this program, TAI will upgrade 41 F-16 A/B Block-15E aircraft at the TAI facility in Ankara, Turkey. It will also provide training to PAF technicians and engineers on MLU F-16s. After getting the MLU, these aircraft will be a mainstay aircraft in PAF for at least two decades. PAF will use these modified F-16s as a deterrent to regional threats and to strengthen the defence of Pakistan.




A F-16B with structural reinforcement plate visible on its fuselage. Inset is close up of a structural reinforcement plate.




A F-16 fuselage without structural reinforcement plates.










F-100 engine undergoing testing.




Engineers working on F-100 power plant at MRF facility. The F-100 modules repair/overhaul consists of Inlet Fan Module (IF), Fan Drive Turbine (FDT) Module, Core Module, Gearbox Module, and High Pressure Turbine Module (HPT).









F-16A undergoing painting at aircraft painting facility, MRF.




An example of neat paint job done.

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## VCheng

Najam Khan said:


> .................
> *Improvement *in the service life of various F-100 modules is as follows:
> 
> Fan Module 1800-4000 Hours
> Core Module 4000 Hours
> Turbine 3500 Hours
> Augmentor Module 4000 Hours
> Gearbox Module 4000 Hours..................



An improvement by the number of hours quoted, or total number of hours after said improvement?


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## Najam Khan

VCheng said:


> An improvement by the number of hours quoted, or total number of hours after said improvement?


 
The latter.

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## VCheng

Najam Khan said:


> The latter.



Exactly as I thought. Perhaps an improvement to the sentence structure may aid clarity, but that is only a suggestion.


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## air marshal

*ITT Exelis to supply additional ALQ-211(V)9 pods to Pakistan*

ITT Exelis has received a Foreign Military Sales (FMS) contract from the US Robins Air Force Base for the supply of additional pod-mounted ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System (AIDEWS) to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).

The jamming pods, delivered under the $54m FMS contract, will be integrated into PAF's fleet of F-16 Fighting Falcon fighter jets.

Exelis Integrated Electronic Warfare Systems business vice-president and general manager Rich Sorelle said the pod-mounted system brings electronic warfare technology to its customers at much lesser cost.

"Since AIDEWS is being adopted by many of our international allies and is based on our modular and scalable EW technology, future upgrade costs are shared and affordable," Sorelle added.

Developed from the ALQ-211 (V) 4 system, AIDEWS provides pilots with situational awareness and protection against radar-based threats, including modern surface-to-air and air-to-air weapon systems.

The (V)9 pod provides digital radar warning, high-power jamming, threat geolocation and situational awareness using line replaceable units (LRUs) interchangeable with internal AIDEWS systems.

The system has been integrated into a wide variety of US and allied defence rotary-wing and fighter aircraft including the NH-90 helicopter, V-22 Osprey, MH-47, MH-60 Black Hawk, F-16 Fighter and several commercial platforms.

Work under the contract will be performed at the company's Electronic Systems division in Clifton, New Jersey, US.

The company was also awarded a $49.09m FMS contract for supply of systems software and support equipment for the ALQ-211(V)9 pods in July 2011.

The package included delivery of 18 pods, four pod shells, two antenna coupler sets, as well as two lab test benches and data systems.

More than 180 AIDEWS systems are currently under contract for six countries as part of the company's FMS programme and, around 140 systems have been delivered along with continuous software support through regular system updates to date.

Image: The AIDEWS pod-mounted system provides pilots with advanced situational awareness and protection against radar-based threats. Photo: ITT Exelis.

ITT Exelis to supply additional ALQ-211(V)9 pods to Pakistan - Airforce Technology


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## Donatello

Hmm, so why only 18? Why not for the entire fleet of MLU-ed aircraft as well?


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## Donatello

Last Hope said:


> *I hid the name, rank and face for obvious reasons.*


 

Is that the F-16 Blk A/B?

6+1 hardpoints??


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## TOPGUN

Donatello said:


> Is that the F-16 Blk A/B?
> 
> 6+1 hardpoints??


 
It is forusre a A/B model


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## fjavaid

Donatello said:


> Is that the F-16 Blk A/B?
> 
> 6+1 hardpoints??


 
what ever the model is its awwsome pic ......


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## abdulbarijan

*CHECK OUT THE BEAUTY AT 0:18*

And now

THANK ME!!!

LOL!!!!

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## Cool_Soldier

Nice Video indeed.


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## abdulbarijan



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## razgriz19

F-16 beat typhoon in dogfight


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## CallsignAlzaeem

razgriz19 said:


> F-16 beat typhoon in dogfight



This is F-2000 Typhoon Italian prototype with Danish block 40 falcon.The score was in favor of F-2000 however at lower altitude less energy bleeding helped falcon to get hold on it.the problem began at the higher altitude where F-2000 was the undisputed winner.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

So what is new about it---even the mirage 2k has taken out the F16 at higher altitude.

YOU CHICKEN HAWKS-----did you ever hear about the F86 sabre and the indian Gnat----did you know what their strong and weak points were-----


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## Nishan_101

If there are 50 planned for each block then how a fleet of 400 would be completed???
150 JF-17s all blocks.
50 J-10Bs
59 F-16s old
18 F-16s new

277 Aircraft!!!

So are there any plans to buy 52 F-16s Block-52s???? along with older F-16s


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## ziaulislam

i doubt a fleet of 400 will be completed ...most likly the number will stay between 320-360
the reason why PAF strength increased in 90s was because of induction of large number of low tech aircrfts..
with thunder induction its likly they will decrease the number of aircrafts 
150 thunders and 120-150 j-10/f-16 along with some F-7pg will be the force they will try to keep around 2018

real challenge will be how to induct these j-10s and if possible older f-16s (financing since govt isnt inclined to spend much)


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## Nishan_101

ziaulislam said:


> i doubt a fleet of 400 will be completed ...most likly the number will stay between 320-360
> the reason why PAF strength increased in 90s was because of induction of large number of low tech aircrfts..
> with thunder induction its likly they will decrease the number of aircrafts
> 150 thunders and 120-150 j-10/f-16 along with some F-7pg will be the force they will try to keep around 2018
> 
> real challenge will be how to induct these j-10s and if possible older f-16s (financing since govt isnt inclined to spend much)



So what they are really doing right now!!!
F-16s new arecoming or not like 18+


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## fatman17

*10 Apr 1992* 
First Pakistani aircraft: F-16A (#90-943) and F-16B (#90-948) arrive at AMARC under designations AAFG0001 & AAFG0002. They are the first of 28 Peace Gate III & IV aircraft to be embargoed.

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## umair86

More F-16 MLU from RNLAF might be up for sale

Netherlands makes final trim to F-16 fleet size


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## mosu

Are Kill Switches on Pakistani F-16s Possible?


The discussion about kill switches existing or not in Pakistani F-16s is a critical issue since Pakistan cannot afford to find its planes of no worth in case of war. Further, another issue is whether in such a mode these F-16s may be able to infect other data linked platforms. We have only recently observed how the Stuxnet virus infected the Iranian reactors. We also observed how Syrian radars could not observe the Israeli planes that attacked Syrias supposed nuclear facilities. There have been concerns raised that this may have been a form of new EW systems that are closer to computer viruses in that they exploit the software of the radars. 

Pakistans C4I could be compromised if these F-16s or other US equipment are found to be Trojan horses or less identifiably, entry points for such attacks. 
We open the discussion with analysis that the discussion of kill switches in Pakistani F-16s may be one that is politically motivated. The purpose behind this is described as American attempts to sell their weapons, particularly combat jets, to India. 

Pentagons Non Lethal Weapons Directorate has only recently begun sending RFPs for such technologies. The proposed technology would allow aircraft to be safely diverted or prevented from taking off. The respected Pakdef member confirms his analysis through a conversation with a former Lockheed Martin colleague. This reviewer notes that such RFPs are mainly targeted for general purposes. Public and open RFPs are needed to make this technology acceptable for FAA purposes. Embedding such technologies in foreign military sales would not be related to such RFPs, but rather be black projects unknown to the public and not shareable with individuals considered attached to foreign militaries. 
evidence of tampering with aircraft sold by the United States to foreign countries. He notes that even a close ally such is Australia, has had issues with technical limitations programmed into them. notes that Australia has had a problem with BVR weapons capabilities. Australia overcame their limitations by hacking into the system, an issue on which they do no see eye-to-eye with their American counterparts on. 

example of Malaysias F/A-18s and notes issues with accuracy [perhaps discussing targeting systems]. This author also notes that Malaysian F/A-18 pilots found, to their surprise, that they cannot designate way-points on Singapore. Malaysia is unlikely to be a customer of US military aircraft. 
Another point raised is that Indonesian Su-27s had mysterious glitches that would suddenly indicate that the planes were under attack. doubts that this was merely a software error.also notes that it is not possible to go through everything as such planes are extremely complex machines with million of lines of codes. A thorough review would be expensive, time consuming and by and large, beyond the reach of a customer. 

Also talks about how a Chinese purchase of a Boeing aircraft was bugged by the CIA. He asks us to ponder upon why the JSF has only black boxes that need to be returned to the USA with everything produced and maintained by US companies. Essentially, Americans can best be understood in a Machiavellian light. They cannot be trusted and cannot be relied upon in any way. 

i believethat F-16 can be compromised using its satellite receiver. This is located on the spine of the aircraft. Any party that controls the GPS transmission can scramble anything it wants into the aircrafts receiver. This can simple be a passive activation of a hidden trigger. He notes that this has implications not only for the aircraft, but also for the air force. He gives the example of Israels attack on the Syrian supposed nuclear site. i wonders allowed what could happen if the Indians receive such EW devices which could not only impact the F-16s, but could impact the entire C4I through these Trojan horses. 

The respected Pakdef member notes that such details and information is not likely to be confirmed or rejected in a manner than can be considered reliable because of the conflict of interest. He notes that such kill switches, judging by past US policy, is in their interest.


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## TOPGUN

There is no kill switches stop the bs plzzz come back to reailty from outer space .... PAF know what it's doing .

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## Dazzler

kill switch saga was killed a long time ago. There is no such thing in our F-16s and it was just a myth created on purpose.

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## VCheng

Like Chogy and I agreed to say some time ago: all technologies on the F-16s are supplied under mutually accepted and legally binding agreements and capabilities, and will not say anything else here.

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## RazPaK

nabil_05 said:


> kill switch saga was killed a long time ago. There is no such thing in our F-16s and it was just a myth created on purpose.



A myth?


I remember reading about the Turks finding something in a wreck of one of their F-16's??


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## fatman17

RazPaK said:


> A myth?
> 
> 
> I remember reading about the Turks finding something in a wreck of one of their F-16's??



oh god - not again!!!

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## Last Hope

F-16s owned by Pakistan Air Force haven't got any kill switches, but the strings and restrictions are good enough for them. 
PAF F-16s have been used against India, Afghanistan and USSR. The first is our biggest concern though.

And from kill switches you mean to say that they have inserted them so that PAF doesn't use them against US or their allies, then here is the answer to that:
Link


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## Jango

I had a long long discussion with a PAF officer about this myth, and got a good understanding of the fact that......it is BS!!!!

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## VCheng

nuclearpak said:


> I had a long long discussion with a PAF officer about this myth, and got a good understanding of the fact that......it is BS!!!!



A PAF officer who understands millions of lines of software code running an F-16? "Good" understanding is a relative term, I would think.

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## nomi007

F-16 Production Finally Winds Down
April 13, 2012: Production of the American F-16 fighter has hit 4,500. For the last decade, nearly all new F-16s have gone to the export market. Thus F-16 number 4,500 is headed for Morocco, as has about half of all F-16 production. Nearly 80 percent of all F-16s were manufactured at one plant in Texas, with the rest built overseas in several locations, largely from American made parts. About 68 percent of all F-16s built are still in use.

Many nations are planning to retire their F-16s and replace them with F-35s, which will begin arriving before the end of the decade. There is already a very active market for used F-16s (as a result of the Cold War ending in 1991 and much subsequent disarmament). Because of all this, F-16 production will probably cease in four or five years. Currently there are only 70 on order. Entering service in 1978, the F-16 will probably end up remaining in service 40 years and possibly 50 years.

The U.S. F-16 is also one of the most modified jet fighters in service. While most are still called the F-16C, there are actually six major mods, identified by block number (32, 40, 42, 50, 52, 60), plus the Israeli F-16I, which is a major modification of the Block 52. The other special version (the Block 60), for the UAE, is called the F-16E. The various block mods included a large variety of new components (five engines, four sets of avionics, five generations of electronic warfare gear, five radars and many other mechanical, software, cockpit, and electrical mods.) The F-16 is the most numerous post-Cold War jet fighter, with at least 4,570 built or on order. During The Cold War, Russia built over 10,000 MiG-21s and the U.S over 5,000 F-4s, but since 1991, warplane manufacturing has plummeted about 90 percent. The F-16 was one of the few Cold War era fighters to buck that trend. 
Procurement: F-16 Production Finally Winds Down


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> F-16 Production Finally Winds Down
> April 13, 2012: Production of the American F-16 fighter has hit 4,500. For the last decade, nearly all new F-16s have gone to the export market. Thus F-16 number 4,500 is headed for Morocco, as has about half of all F-16 production. Nearly 80 percent of all F-16s were manufactured at one plant in Texas, with the rest built overseas in several locations, largely from American made parts. About 68 percent of all F-16s built are still in use.
> 
> Many nations are planning to retire their F-16s and replace them with F-35s, which will begin arriving before the end of the decade. There is already a very active market for used F-16s (as a result of the Cold War ending in 1991 and much subsequent disarmament). Because of all this, F-16 production will probably cease in four or five years. Currently there are only 70 on order. Entering service in 1978, the F-16 will probably end up remaining in service 40 years and possibly 50 years.
> 
> The U.S. F-16 is also one of the most modified jet fighters in service. While most are still called the F-16C, there are actually six major mods, identified by block number (32, 40, 42, 50, 52, 60), plus the Israeli F-16I, which is a major modification of the Block 52. The other special version (the Block 60), for the UAE, is called the F-16E. The various block mods included a large variety of new components (five engines, four sets of avionics, five generations of electronic warfare gear, five radars and many other mechanical, software, cockpit, and electrical mods.) The F-16 is the most numerous post-Cold War jet fighter, with at least 4,570 built or on order. During The Cold War, Russia built over 10,000 MiG-21s and the U.S over 5,000 F-4s, but since 1991, warplane manufacturing has plummeted about 90 percent. The F-16 was one of the few Cold War era fighters to buck that trend.
> Procurement: F-16 Production Finally Winds Down



it will continue as they have orders from Iraq (36), Indonesia(12) and maybe 14 from Pakistan. yes they dont have a huge back-log.


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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> it will continue as they have orders from Iraq (36), Indonesia(12) and maybe 14 from Pakistan. yes they dont have a huge back-log.


i hope next time paf try to get some technology also for spare parts manufacturing


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## nomi007

A new concept, developed by FAR Technologies can apply to various military aircraft, fighters and trainers, adapting existing fuel tanks to be carried under weapon stations. Under the patent pending design, an installation of fuel lines, flowing fuel from the outboard weapon stations (3 and 7 on the F-16) to fuel tanks pylons, (stations 4 and 6 on the F-16). In Israel, IAI/Lahav is promoting the implementation on the F-16 and is working on the necessary adaptations. The installation can be applied in only two hours, and enable the Falcon to carry a total of up to five external fuel tanks, reduce the need of air refueling, extend ferry range by 40% and add 25% to the mission radius (on attack and reconnaissance missions, for example), and up to doubling endurance on combat air patrol missions.






Israel's IMI is also offering a higher capacity external fuel tanks (600 Gallon) for the F16, which can significantly extend the F-16 range, These tanks can replace the 370 gallon tanks or carried in addition to other tanks, especially on long haul ferry missions. However, the 600 Gal version cannot be dropped when the aircraft enters a dogfight and therefore, can be carried when the aircraft is armed for all aspect combat (when maneuvering relative to the target is not required), or maintained in relatively safe flight pattern (such as various mission support roles) or being escorted by other fighters.





Extending the F-16 range


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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> i hope next time paf try to get some technology also for spare parts manufacturing



LM has one of the best supply chains plus with nearly 450 F-16's retired already and parked at D-M in arizona, spares should be least of the problems. in fact PAF has placed an FMS order of US$75m for spares for all its aircraft.

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## nomi007

ITT Exelis has received a Foreign Military Sales (FMS) contract from the US Robins Air Force Base for the supply of additional pod-mounted ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System (AIDEWS) to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).

The jamming pods, delivered under the $54m FMS contract, will be integrated into PAF's fleet of F-16 Fighting Falcon fighter jets.

Exelis Integrated Electronic Warfare Systems business vice-president and general manager Rich Sorelle said the pod-mounted system brings electronic warfare technology to its customers at much lesser cost.

"Since AIDEWS is being adopted by many of our international allies and is based on our modular and scalable EW technology, future upgrade costs are shared and affordable," Sorelle added.

Developed from the ALQ-211 (V) 4 system, AIDEWS provides pilots with situational awareness and protection against radar-based threats, including modern surface-to-air and air-to-air weapon systems.

The (V)9 pod provides digital radar warning, high-power jamming, threat geolocation and situational awareness using line replaceable units (LRUs) interchangeable with internal AIDEWS systems.

The system has been integrated into a wide variety of US and allied defence rotary-wing and fighter aircraft including the NH-90 helicopter, V-22 Osprey, MH-47, MH-60 Black Hawk, F-16 Fighter and several commercial platforms.

Work under the contract will be performed at the company's Electronic Systems division in Clifton, New Jersey, US.

The company was also awarded a $49.09m FMS contract for supply of systems software and support equipment for the ALQ-211(V)9 pods in July 2011.

The package included delivery of 18 pods, four pod shells, two antenna coupler sets, as well as two lab test benches and data systems.

More than 180 AIDEWS systems are currently under contract for six countries as part of the company's FMS programme and, around 140 systems have been delivered along with continuous software support through regular system updates to date.

Image: The AIDEWS pod-mounted system provides pilots with advanced situational awareness and protection against radar-based threats. Photo: ITT Exelis





ITT Exelis to supply additional ALQ-211(V)9 pods to Pakistan - Airforce Technology


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## fatman17

old news nomiji


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## Edevelop



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## nomi007

is this true that paf's f-16 participate in any exercise against ef-2000 in turkey?

The following screenshot comes from a video recorded by the HUD (Head Up Display) of a Eurofighter Typhoon and it is the first (and only) Typhoon HUD capture ever made public.

It shows an F-16 in the wrong place at the wrong time: in front of a high maneuvering plane capable to point its nose when it wants to.

During a dissimilar air combat training (DACT), the &#8220;Viper&#8221;, in clean configuration and maneuvering under high G-forces, is killed by a Typhoon with a gun shot scored while flying at 8,200 feet, less than 5 degrees AOA (Angle of Attack), Mach 0.46, pulling 1.8G.




According to the source who sent it to me, the rest of the video shows that the Typhoon, after downing the F-16, continues maneuvering vertically, accelerating a bit to climb and descend again for a second shot on the same target.

The video answers to the some articles published in 2011 about claims that Pakistan Air Force&#8217;s pilots scored Typhoon kills during DACT taking place in Turkey, during Ex. Anatolian Eagle. According to such reports, Pakistani pilots on exchange with the Turkish Air Force, and flying TuAF F-16s, scored kills against RAF Typhoons in WVR (Within Visual Range) gun contests (even if no evidence was provided to support claims fueling the theory that the of fighter pilot tall story).

Since I don&#8217;t think I need to explain once again why DACT WVR is important and why any simulated kill should be taken with grain of salt, let me just add (paraphrasing someone else&#8217;s words
Exclusive: F-16 gets killed by Typhoon during air combat training in first Eurofighter HUD capture ever. « The Aviationist

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## Donatello

nomi007 said:


> is this true that paf's f-16 participate in any exercise against ef-2000 in turkey?
> 
> The following screenshot comes from a video recorded by the HUD (Head Up Display) of a Eurofighter Typhoon and it is the first (and only) Typhoon HUD capture ever made public.
> 
> It shows an F-16 in the wrong place at the wrong time: in front of a high maneuvering plane capable to point its nose when it wants to.
> 
> During a dissimilar air combat training (DACT), the &#8220;Viper&#8221;, in clean configuration and maneuvering under high G-forces, is killed by a Typhoon with a gun shot scored while flying at 8,200 feet, less than 5 degrees AOA (Angle of Attack), Mach 0.46, pulling 1.8G.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to the source who sent it to me, the rest of the video shows that the Typhoon, after downing the F-16, continues maneuvering vertically, accelerating a bit to climb and descend again for a second shot on the same target.
> 
> The video answers to the some articles published in 2011 about claims that Pakistan Air Force&#8217;s pilots scored Typhoon kills during DACT taking place in Turkey, during Ex. Anatolian Eagle. According to such reports, Pakistani pilots on exchange with the Turkish Air Force, and flying TuAF F-16s, scored kills against RAF Typhoons in WVR (Within Visual Range) gun contests (even if no evidence was provided to support claims fueling the theory that the of fighter pilot tall story).
> 
> Since I don&#8217;t think I need to explain once again why DACT WVR is important and why any simulated kill should be taken with grain of salt, let me just add (paraphrasing someone else&#8217;s words
> Exclusive: F-16 gets killed by Typhoon during air combat training in first Eurofighter HUD capture ever. « The Aviationist



If you are in front of Typhoon, Flanker or F-15 with high agility, no matter what plane you are in, you are F***ed.


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## Sapper

nomi007 said:


> During a dissimilar air combat training (DACT), the &#8220;Viper&#8221;, in clean configuration and maneuvering under high G-forces, is killed by a Typhoon with a gun shot scored while flying at 8,200 feet, less than 5 degrees AOA (Angle of Attack), Mach 0.46, pulling 1.8G.




Dear,

This is what you call *PAWNED* ... going once (0:21) ... going twice (1:33) ... going thrice (1:48) ... SOLD (1:59, guaranteed F16 hud) ...






In my opinion, both are evenly matched, more or less (and same goes for rafale) , and only tactics determining the outcome of the bout.

The current F16 Bl-60 is slightly superior in its Radar, ECM, and Targeting Pod, while both Eurofighter and Rafale have a slight edge in maneuverability (Typhoon/Rafale will upgrade avionics by end of decade). But these differences can quickly vanish if your opponent is better trained, and currently both the Rafale and Eurofighter have extremely high maintenance costs prohibiting extensive training, contrary to F16s which allow pilots to accumulate as much as 2000 ~3000 hours on the platform during their service. That is going to be the biggest difference whenever F16 and Typhoon/Rafale face each other.

Regards,
Sapper

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## Jango

Sapper said:


> Dear,
> 
> This is what you call *PAWNED* ... going once (0:21) ... going twice (1:33) ... going thrice (1:48) ... SOLD (1:59, guaranteed F16 hud) ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my opinion, both are evenly matched, more or less (and same goes for rafale) , and only tactics determining the outcome of the bout.
> 
> The current F16 Bl-60 is slightly superior in its Radar, ECM, and Targeting Pod, while both Eurofighter and Rafale have a slight edge in maneuverability (Typhoon/Rafale will upgrade avionics by end of decade). But these differences can quickly vanish if your opponent is better trained, and currently both the Rafale and Eurofighter have extremely high maintenance costs prohibiting extensive training, contrary to F16s which allow pilots to accumulate as much as 2000 ~3000 hours on the platform during their service. That is going to be the biggest difference whenever F16 and Typhoon/Rafale face each other.
> 
> Regards,
> Sapper



UAE has the only Block 60's. So Block 52 might be the better platform to compare i think.


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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> UAE has the only Block 60's. So Block 52 might be the better platform to compare i think.



Come on man, What's this !! 
How come Blk52 become good in any sense to Blk60 .. ? Its all superior F-16 in every field.


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## Najam Khan

nomi007 said:


> The video answers to the some articles published in 2011 about claims that Pakistan Air Forces pilots scored Typhoon kills during DACT taking place in Turkey, during Ex. Anatolian Eagle. According to such reports, Pakistani pilots on exchange with the Turkish Air Force, and flying TuAF F-16s, scored kills against RAF Typhoons in WVR (Within Visual Range) gun contests (even if no evidence was provided to support claims fueling the theory that the of fighter pilot tall story).
> 
> Since I dont think I need to explain once again why DACT WVR is important and why any simulated kill should be taken with grain of salt, let me just add (paraphrasing someone elses words
> Exclusive: F-16 gets killed by Typhoon during air combat training in first Eurofighter HUD capture ever. « The Aviationist



The author is very smart. He hasn't addressed PAF directly, in fact this article more or less advocates to Eurofighter's WVR capabilities (which are no-doubt world class) against the F-16. Now in the light of facts here are some answers to this article.

1. PAF never participated in AE2011. However PAF did participated in ATLC later in same year (but NATO didn't participated in this ATLC held at UAE)

Following link on AE2011 says: franknoort.nl - Frank's Trip Page


> Participation of Pakistan and the UAE was expected but those two countries had to cancel at the last moment. UAE Mirages are deployed at NAS Sigonella at this moment for Unified Protector so probably there wasnt enough capacity to join Anatolian Eagle. Why the PAF did not join was not clear.



2. NATO has documented its participation in multinational exercises here. There is no record of AE-2008-4 but two other exercises AE-2009-2 and AE-2009-4 are listed. PAF participated in them too. 

3. During Exercise Spring Flag 2008, Turkey participated with Italian (NATO) Eurofighters. Following is a kill mark photo on Italian Eurofighter.





The dogfight of Italian Eurofighters and PAF F-16s was just one small example that got limelight. There have been lots of more similar encounters in ATLC, AE and FalconTalon Exercises. I wish Alan Warnes or any other writer shed some light on them too. World should see the true potential of our pilots

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## Jango

danger-zone said:


> Come on man, What's this !!
> How come Blk52 become good in any sense to Blk60 .. ? Its all superior F-16 in every field.



The Block 60 is the best Viper there is.

But my point was, that only one country, UAE has it.

So, it is not in much widespread use in the world. WHile the Block/52 is in large numbers.

So, it will be the more common adversary.


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## Donatello

Najam Khan said:


> The author is very smart. He hasn't addressed PAF directly, in fact this article more or less advocates to Eurofighter's WVR capabilities (which are no-doubt world class) against the F-16. Now in the light of facts here are some answers to this article.
> 
> 1. PAF never participated in AE2011. However PAF did participated in ATLC later in same year (but NATO didn't participated in this ATLC held at UAE)
> 
> Following link on AE2011 says: franknoort.nl - Frank's Trip Page
> 
> 
> 2. NATO has documented its participation in multinational exercises here. There is no record of AE-2008-4 but two other exercises AE-2009-2 and AE-2009-4 are listed. PAF participated in them too.
> 
> 3. During Exercise Spring Flag 2008, Turkey participated with Italian (NATO) Eurofighters. Following is a kill mark photo on Italian Eurofighter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The dogfight of Italian Eurofighters and PAF F-16s was just one small example that got limelight. There have been lots of more similar encounters in ATLC, AE and FalconTalon Exercises. I wish Alan Warnes or any other writer shed some light on them too. World should see the true potential of our pilots




Wait.....so the marks show that F-16s were shot down? Right?


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## alimobin memon

First of all screw the guy who said PAF f16 was on Ef2000 and other thing is it is not necessary if f16 caught on ef2000 makes that it destroyed it even a rookie can get the ef2000 on mig21 hud so not necessary u got the plane on hUD makes it destroyed.


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## v9s

Donatello said:


> Wait.....so the marks show that F-16s were shot down? Right?



Yeap. Assuming the marks with the crescent and star outside the F-16 silhouette are PAF, PAF was shot down 4 times and Turkey once.


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## Najam Khan

Donatello said:


> Wait.....so the marks show that F-16s were shot down? Right?





v9s said:


> Yeap. Assuming the marks with the crescent and star outside the F-16 silhouette are PAF, PAF was shot down 4 times and Turkey once.


 
Read my post again. Its Italian AF kills against TUAF in Exercise Spring Flag. PAF never release the scores of DACT missions in multinational exercises. Its not even released within PAF...whatever a Sqn does, it remains in its own archives

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## fatman17

v9s said:


> Yeap. Assuming the marks with the crescent and star outside the F-16 silhouette are PAF, PAF was shot down 4 times and Turkey once.



no the mark on the fuselage means kill confirmed. the 3 small marks means 'probable' kill.


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## Donatello

Najam Khan said:


> Read my post again. Its Italian AF kills against TUAF in Exercise Spring Flag. PAF never release the scores of DACT missions in multinational exercises. Its not even released within PAF...whatever a Sqn does, it remains in its own archives



Okay, i am confused. So someone put this thing up that PAF pilots beat typhoons in WVR combat? Is that true?

Someone clarify it up. Is that myth or plausible?


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Okay, i am confused. So someone put this thing up that PAF pilots beat typhoons in WVR combat? Is that true?
> 
> Someone clarify it up. Is that myth or plausible?



contact alan warnes of AFM. he can shed some light on it.


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## fatman17

*30 Apr 1993* 
PAF accepts first F-16 from Peace Gate IV order, but the aircraft are embargoed.

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## Windjammer

*FIA Institute test F-16 Canopy for potential application F1 in open cockpit racing cars, a tyre travelling at 225/KMH is first fired into a 
an American Dragster's canopy and then into an F-16 Bubble Canopy.*

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## chauvunist

Najam Khan said:


> The author is very smart. He hasn't addressed PAF directly, in fact this article more or less advocates to Eurofighter's WVR capabilities (which are no-doubt world class) against the F-16. Now in the light of facts here are some answers to this article.
> 
> 1. PAF never participated in AE2011. However PAF did participated in ATLC later in same year (but NATO didn't participated in this ATLC held at UAE)
> 
> Following link on AE2011 says: franknoort.nl - Frank's Trip Page
> 
> 
> 2. NATO has documented its participation in multinational exercises here. There is no record of AE-2008-4 but two other exercises AE-2009-2 and AE-2009-4 are listed. PAF participated in them too.
> 
> 3. During Exercise Spring Flag 2008, Turkey participated with Italian (NATO) Eurofighters. Following is a kill mark photo on Italian Eurofighter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The dogfight of Italian Eurofighters and PAF F-16s was just one small example that got limelight. There have been lots of more similar encounters in ATLC, AE and FalconTalon Exercises. I wish Alan Warnes or any other writer shed some light on them too. World should see the true potential of our pilots



the direction of crescents in pak and turk flags are up and down respectively...while in the pic above all the flags have crescents with downward direction....


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## Najam Khan

Donatello said:


> Okay, i am confused. So someone put this thing up that PAF pilots beat typhoons in WVR combat? Is that true?
> 
> Someone clarify it up. Is that myth or plausible?


Ok, for the last time. The 3-0 encounter with Typhoon is real, three pilots were involved two of them have moved onto JF-17 and bk52. This is no myth.



chauvunist said:


> the direction of crescents in pak and turk flags are up and down respectively...while in the pic above all the flags have crescents with downward direction....


Unfortunately that picture was for reference only. Lets end this discussion for good.

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## Donatello

Najam Khan said:


> Ok, for the last time. The 3-0 encounter with Typhoon is real, three pilots were involved two of them have moved onto JF-17 and bk52. This is no myth.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately that picture was for reference only. Lets end this discussion for good.



Thanks for the info Najam Sahab.

3-0 in favor of F-16 right?

Thanks.


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## Windjammer

Donatello said:


> Thanks for the info Najam Sahab.
> 
> 3-0 in favor of F-16 right?
> 
> Thanks.



Yes there were three set ups and in all three the PAF pilots locked on the Typhoons.
These are some of those guys who achieved the kills.

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## SBD-3

a piece on how F-16 has been able to and will remain relevant to air doctrine in foreseeable future.

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## Jango

THis is from Kamra airfield. 

Are these underground shelters? Are there any in kamra? Or in any base in Pakistan. Some new shelters were built for f-16's, and they are evident at PAF Mushaf.


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## v9s

nuclearpak said:


> THis is from Kamra airfield.
> 
> Are these underground shelters? Are there any in kamra? Or in any base in Pakistan. Some new shelters were built for f-16's, and they are evident at PAF Mushaf.



I don't think so. It looks like a pedestrian tunnel you usually find on highways.


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## Jango

v9s said:


> I don't think so. It looks like a pedestrian tunnel you usually find on highways.



This is not a highway, but a taxiway. 

Are there any underground in Pakistan?


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## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> THis is from Kamra airfield.
> 
> Are these underground shelters? Are there any in kamra? Or in any base in Pakistan. Some new shelters were built for f-16's, and they are evident at PAF Mushaf.



Probably nothing more than a drain that leads to an underground sewerage network leading out of the base Perimeter.


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## Jango

But Oscar are there any underground shelters in Pakistan?


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## Safriz

Windjammer said:


> *FIA Institute test F-16 Canopy for potential application F1 in open cockpit racing cars, a tyre travelling at 225/KMH is first fired into a
> an American Dragster's canopy and then into an F-16 Bubble Canopy.*



but same results cannot be expected when the plane is flying at cruising speed as the glass will be already under stress and any additional impact will have different consequences than this video...
This test was for racing cars,but would have been more accurate in a wind tunnel where the glas was blasted with 300KPH wind and then hit by tyre....


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## Windjammer

Revetment Parking Bays with blast proof walls. ??

It could also be drainage system so the water from the field doesn't flood the taxiway. ??


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## Safriz

but how the plane is supposed to enter this ?
no taxi way leading to this...Its grass and slope all around it


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## Windjammer

Safriz said:


> but same results cannot be expected when the plane is flying at cruising speed as the glass will be already under stress and any additional impact will have different consequences than this video...
> This test was for racing cars,but would have been more accurate in a wind tunnel where the glas was blasted with 300KPH wind and then hit by tyre....



The thing here is that say an F-16 will seldom have the same hazard other than a bird strike in air, which again would be much less lethal than a tyre.


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## Safriz

Windjammer said:


> The thing here is that say an F-16 will seldom have the same hazard other than a bird strike in air, which again would be much less lethal than a tyre.



well yes you don't expect a Tyre hitting you midair...


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## Last Hope

The picture, is most probably to keep the runway incase of heavy showers/rain. How would you expect a fighter to get out, there is no opening on the runway.

And PAF Base Minhas has 19 hangars, excluding those for C-130. No need for underground hangars at PAF Base Minhas.


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## Jango

Sorry folks, that is only a drainage!!!

The fact that it has no lines to guide the plane. Totally forgot this!



Windjammer said:


> The thing here is that say an F-16 will seldom have the same hazard other than a bird strike in air, which again would be much less lethal than a tyre.



What is the material composition of the F-16 canopy? Any info about that? looks like heavy use of plastics by the video.


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## Luftwaffe

nuclearpak said:


> But Oscar are there any underground shelters in Pakistan?



Hi, A Fool will only tell you people, I am sure Oscar drives carefully.


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## Jango

Luftwaffe said:


> Hi, A Fool will only tell you people, I am sure Oscar drives carefully.



This not really a secret, things bigger than this are known to the world and to people.

And you people refers to.....?


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## SQ8

Luftwaffe said:


> Hi, A Fool will only tell you people, I am sure Oscar drives carefully.



Unfortunately.. in this case.. Oscar is too unsure to make any comment .. yes(s)..and No(s).. flood his Brain in answer to this question. 
And since I do try to drive carefully, Ill only say that Underground shelters are possible where the terrain permits it.


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## Jango

Oscar said:


> Unfortunately.. in this case.. Oscar is too unsure to make any comment .. yes(s)..and No(s).. flood his Brain in answer to this question.
> And since I do try to drive carefully, Ill only say that Underground shelters are possible where the terrain permits it.



Thank you. 

Underground facIlities for military do exist though. 

I read somewhere that new shelters for the F-16 were made, both above and below. I know about the above part, but below was uncertain. Hence the question.


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## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> Revetment Parking Bays with blast proof walls. ??
> 
> It could also be drainage system so the water from the field doesn't flood the taxiway. ??



Possibly a drainage...and link between the two sides for water to flow during heavy rains.

Notice how the land has barren steaks running the length of the direction of drainage tunnel. Both sides of runway there is a barren land, while green patches around it. So probably, when water flows, the plants cannot be grown obviously in standing water....so grass/plants don't exist in that region.


Just my arm chair analysis.

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## Jango

Yeah most probably, because there are no yellow guidelines leading to the area for taxi.


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## Windjammer

Donatello said:


> Okay, i am confused. So someone put this thing up that PAF pilots beat typhoons in WVR combat? Is that true?
> 
> Someone clarify it up. Is that myth or plausible?

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## Abdul Quddoos

Our F-16s have kill switches


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## SQ8

Abdul Quddoos said:


> Our F-16s have kill switches



No they dont..
They have checks that will tell if there are attempts to remove or open sensitive components by unauthorized personnel. 
But nothing that will shut them off mid-air.


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## VelocuR

Oscar said:


> No they dont..
> They have checks that will tell if there are attempts to remove or open sensitive components by unauthorized personnel.
> But nothing that will shut them off mid-air.


 
How can we be sure that? Is USA stupid to let unauthorized personnel investigatation? maybe new technology of tiny virus chips from MLUs upgrading.


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## Abdul Quddoos

Oscar said:


> No they dont..
> They have checks that will tell if there are attempts to remove or open sensitive components by unauthorized personnel.
> But nothing that will shut them off mid-air.


They have and it is an open reality.
So, the question is, can we decode those switches and make them useless, ourselves?
if we've to use them in war against anyone...?
Is there any trick...?
Is it possible...?


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## HANI

Abdul Quddoos said:


> They have and it is an open reality.
> So, the question is, can we decode those switches and make them useless, ourselves?
> if we've to use them in war against anyone...?
> Is there any trick...?
> Is it possible...?



if they have kill switches why are these working when our F 16 intercept US choppers near border after Abbottabad operation ?????????????????


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## Donatello

HANI said:


> if they have kill switches why are these working when our F 16 intercept US choppers near border after Abbottabad operation ?????????????????



Those were F-16 A/B, of not much use anyway........

And the OBL 'raid' was all but a drama.

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## Dazzler

Donatello said:


> Those were F-16 A/B, of not much use anyway........
> 
> And the OBL 'raid' was all but a drama.



OBL raid was sheer drama for sure till they bring out some authentic pics or video like they propagated Saddam story but Kill Switch story is equally funny story.

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## Sinnerman108

Oscar said:


> No they dont..
> They have checks that will tell if there are attempts to remove or open sensitive components by unauthorized personnel.
> But nothing that will shut them off mid-air.


 


nabil_05 said:


> OBL raid was sheer drama for sure till they bring out some authentic pics or video like they propagated Saddam story but Kill Switch story is equally funny story.



Within the realm of science,
can both of you for sure claim that there isn't any block of code that is detrimental to our requirements ?


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## Peaceful Civilian

Abdul Quddoos said:


> Our F-16s have kill switches


Sir these are just rumors. America don't need to put something as kill switch. America will never want to destroy their goodwill and their product. America is already struggling to sell their new planes as there are some competitors who want to decrease/eliminate American domination in air and fighter Industry. America will never put Kill switch. instead, if they have fear from planes, They have option to, Not to sell their fighters and spare parts.
There is nothing Like Kill switch.
But..........
If you want to modify and want to play with their avionics, there may be option of alarm system which may alert the U.S.A defense system for illegally modifying or playing with avionics.

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## TOPGUN

There are no kill switches for GOD sake people... if PAF is not loosing sleep over it then why are guys going insane vipers are and will be used in case of any war or operation infact have been used on the WOT now plzz get some tea and relax.


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## SQ8

salman108 said:


> Within the realm of science,
> can both of you for sure claim that there isn't any block of code that is *detrimental to our requirements* ?



There is no block of code on those upgraded aircraft that is detrimental to our wartime requirements.


----------



## regular

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Sir these are just rumors. America don't need to put something as kill switch. America will never want to destroy their goodwill and their product. America is already struggling to sell their new planes as there are some competitors who want to decrease/eliminate American domination in air and fighter Industry. America will never put Kill switch. instead, if they have fear from planes, They have option to, Not to sell their fighters and spare parts.
> There is nothing Like Kill switch.
> But..........
> If you want to modify and want to play with their avionics, there may be option of alarm system which may alert the U.S.A defense system for illegally modifying or playing with avionics.


Only foolish pplz trust their enemies, smart ppl never do.....

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## MilSpec

There is no such thing as kill switch in pAF F16's... If there were any such limiter/bugs in the machine , they would be discovered and removed by the PAF technicians within a week. 

I am surprised that members still doubt engineering skills of a professional Air Force



regular said:


> Only foolish pplz trust their enemies, smart ppl never do.....



It is utterly ridiculous to think US as your enemy.

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## Donatello

salman108 said:


> Within the realm of science,
> can both of you for sure claim that there isn't any block of code that is detrimental to our requirements ?



No kill switches. And the jets will work against India anytime, anywhere. Now against NATO forces, they don't need kill switches.....they know the ins and outs of the plane. They build it.


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## MastanKhan

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Sir these are just rumors. America don't need to put something as kill switch. America will never want to destroy their goodwill and their product. America is already struggling to sell their new planes as there are some competitors who want to decrease/eliminate American domination in air and fighter Industry. America will never put Kill switch. instead, if they have fear from planes, They have option to, Not to sell their fighters and spare parts.
> There is nothing Like Kill switch.
> But..........
> If you want to modify and want to play with their avionics, there may be option of alarm system which may alert the U.S.A defense system for illegally modifying or playing with avionics.



Hi,

Thank you for your post---but what can be said----pakistanis believe that the world is after them---whole of pakistan is paranoid---they are paranoid of leaves moving by the wind as if itwas a conspiracy---. But thank you for your post---.

People don't understand that the u s defence industry is an independant business entity that does not take any dictation from the u s government----.

That is why is has been brought up---instead of the u s govt---if paf had signed a contract directly with Lockheed Martin / GD / with the approval of the u s govt---there would be no sanctions on pakistan in the 90's. 

No fighter aircraft company would want its name tarnished by planting kill switches----if you can do it to John---then you will do it to Mohammad and Hari Ram as well and businesses of the defence industry are not run like that---. 

could that be the fear that india did not pick a u s fighter aircraft.


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## SQ8

RaptorRX707 said:


> How can we be sure that? Is USA stupid to let unauthorized personnel investigatation? maybe new technology of tiny *virus chips from MLUs upgrading*.



Tiny virus chips???
If they had to do it, they would.
We are sure because we made sure.. we knew what strings are attached or not. 
the MLU is being done in Turkey..by TAI personnel who have done this a hundred times before. 
What is amiss.. the checks on the electronic pods.. sealed sensitive components.. we have been told before.

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## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for your post---but what can be said----pakistanis believe that the world is after them---whole of pakistan is paranoid---they are paranoid of leaves moving by the wind as if itwas a conspiracy---. But thank you for your post---.
> 
> People don't understand that the u s defence industry is an independant business entity that does not take any dictation from the u s government----.
> 
> That is why is has been brought up---instead of the u s govt---if paf had signed a contract directly with Lockheed Martin / GD / with the approval of the u s govt---there would be no sanctions on pakistan in the 90's.
> 
> No fighter aircraft company would want its name tarnished by planting kill switches----if you can do it to John---then you will do it to Mohammad and Hari Ram as well and businesses of the defence industry are not run like that---.
> 
> could that be the fear that india did not pick a u s fighter aircraft.



Isn't it mandatory that for all weapons exports from USA, the corporation cannot sell directly to other nations/entities, but the fact that US Government/ DoD becomes the customer first, gets the delivery, and then ships off to the receiving nation.

Like PAF F-16s were delived to US Airforce units, which were then passed on to PAF........same with upgradation of P3 Orions, the US government took them, and the company worked for USA government which in turn was acting like a broker on Pakistan Navy's behalf.

Please correct me if am wrong.


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## Farooqi1

Could anyone confirm that how many F-16 do we have? I mean including from the original purchase of 40 plus 18 were ordered in 2006 with an option of additional 18 and I believe 14 optional were ordered in 2010. Am I right? Any one please?


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## TaimiKhan

Farooqi1 said:


> Could anyone confirm that how many F-16 do we have? I mean including from the original purchase of 40 plus 18 were ordered in 2006 with an option of additional 18 and I believe 14 optional were ordered in 2010. Am I right? Any one please?



32 from original 40

14 old ones received with 1 lost

18 Blk 52s. 

Total 63

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## fatman17

*kill/devil switches discussion:* the only way this 'absurd' discussion can be proved either way is for PK to instigate a incident so that this discussion can be closed forever.


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## Windjammer

While speaking to a PAF guy, i inquired about this "Kill Switch" dilemma, basically he replied that, "Even a mobile phone has a 'chip' in it, so what's the big deal, there is no such technology which will switch off all the systems and make the aircraft fall out of the sky". !!!..... In any case, introducing such a barrier, would instantly kill off the American military aircraft market.

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## Abdul Quddoos

Windjammer said:


> While speaking to a PAF guy, i inquired about this "Kill Switch" dilemma, basically he replied that, "Even a mobile phone has a 'chip' in it, so what's the big deal, there is no such technology which will switch off all the systems and make the aircraft fall out of the sky". !!!..... In any case, introducing such a barrier, would instantly kill off the American military aircraft market.


 
Whatever! Any thing which 'll reduce f-16's performance is not good at all.


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## Windjammer

Abdul Quddoos said:


> Whatever! Any thing which 'll reduce f-16's performance is not good at all.



I have mentioned this before, US has not supplied PAF with CFTs, so the air crafts could merely fly circuit within it's borders.
One needs to remember, Block-52 may be the top notch fighter in PAF's inventory, but Pakistan's defence doesn't merely rely on 18 aircraft.


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## Edevelop

Windjammer said:


> I have mentioned this before, US has not supplied PAF with CFTs, so the air crafts could merely fly circuit within it's borders.
> One needs to remember, Block-52 may be the top notch fighter in PAF's inventory, but Pakistan's defence doesn't merely rely on 18 aircraft.



I thought we were going for Norway's used F-16s?
Do you know if PAF is showing any interest for used or new to increase inventory?


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## Tehmasib

Windjammer said:


> I have mentioned this before, US has not supplied PAF with CFTs, so the air crafts could merely fly circuit within it's borders.
> One needs to remember, Block-52 may be the top notch fighter in PAF's inventory, but Pakistan's defence doesn't merely rely on 18 aircraft.



sir
18 Blk 52 have CFTs.....are u sure that US has not supplied CFTs with F16


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## Windjammer

Tehmasib said:


> sir
> 18 Blk 52 have CFTs.....are u sure that US has not supplied CFTs with F16



No, you misread me, what i was implying is, the fact US has supplied the CFTs, means the Block-52s are meant to carry out long distance missions beyond Pakistan's borders.

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## sancho

Windjammer said:


> No, you misread me, what i was implying is, the fact US has supplied the CFTs, means the Block-52s are meant to carry out long distance missions beyond Pakistan's borders.



Or to stay longer in the air, in air defence missions. More fuel does not only mean more range, but also more endurance!

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## Windjammer

sancho said:


> Or to stay longer in the air, in air defence missions. More fuel does not only mean more range, but also more endurance!



That too, but in the safety of your own airspace, the air fuellers can be called to top up your tanks.


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## Farooqi1

TaimiKhan said:


> 32 from original 40
> 
> 14 old ones received with 1 lost
> 
> 18 Blk 52s.
> 
> Total 63



Thanks But bad news though. I thought we had close to 84 and that is what globalsecurity.org says.


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## TaimiKhan

Farooqi1 said:


> Thanks But bad news though. I thought we had close to 84 and that is what globalsecurity.org says.



First batch 40 aircraft

2nd batch 26 or 28 aircraft which we never initially got as we got embargoed but after WOT started we got 14 out of them.

3rd batch 18 blk 52s

That gives a total of 84 or 86 if my calculations are right. 

Thus 61 in total left as of now.


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## Farooqi1

TaimiKhan said:


> First batch 40 aircraft
> 
> 2nd batch 26 or 28 aircraft which we never initially got as we got embargoed but after WOT started we got 14 out of them.
> 
> 3rd batch 18 blk 52s
> 
> That gives a total of 84 or 86 if my calculations are right.
> 
> Thus 61 in total left as of now.



Khan Sahib you may be right but as per wiki we ordered 40 orignaly and we lost 8 so
32 old ones
14 at no cost old ones as per wiki
18 block 52 Received 18 Optional
14 Ordered in 2010 from option as per wiki.
78


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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> That too, but in the safety of your own airspace, the air fuellers can be called to top up your tanks.



We dont have refuelers which can support the F-16's.


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## TaimiKhan

Farooqi1 said:


> Khan Sahib you may be right but as per wiki we ordered 40 orignaly and we lost 8 so
> 32 old ones
> 14 at no cost old ones as per wiki
> 18 block 52 Received 18 Optional
> 14 Ordered in 2010 from option as per wiki.
> 78



wikipedia is not that accurate and we never ordered additional 14. 

We have been asking the older 14 ones out of the embargoed 28 i believe against which we got wheat and soybean i believe.


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## Farooqi1

TaimiKhan said:


> wikipedia is not that accurate and we never ordered additional 14.
> 
> We have been asking the older 14 ones out of the embargoed 28 i believe against which we got wheat and soybean i believe.



Wheat and Soyabean? unki merbani hi itna khuch bhi dey dia. Dire situation anyway especially after MMRCA purchase of our neighbors. Allaha Malik hey. Hopefully some miracle would happen and we will be respected and feared again. Hopefully in mine and your life time.


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## ziaulislam

as mentioned time and again we currently have 63 with possibility to get further 14, if our relationship goes good with US


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## sancho

Windjammer said:


> That too, but in the safety of your own airspace, the air fuellers can be called to top up your tanks.



Not for the F16 though, since PAF don't has refuellers with boom refuelling system!


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## TOPGUN

sancho said:


> Not for the F16 though, since PAF don't has refuellers with boom refuelling system!



Very true ... that could be said for the older vipers A/B's but the new 18 blk 52's C/D's have cft for long range strike missions.


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## Peaceful Civilian

ziaulislam said:


> as mentioned time and again we currently have 63 with *possibility to get further 14*, if our relationship goes good with US


14 are from those which were embargoed and never delivered and PAF bought 18 blk52 with the optional of another 18.
So it means we can still get 14+ 18 = 32 F16s if relation improves.


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## Farooqi1

Peaceful Civlian said:


> 14 are from those which were embargoed and never delivered and PAF bought 18 blk52 with the optional of another 18.
> So it means we can still get 14+ 18 = 32 F16s if relation improves.



Don't know sir it is all confusing. If you go f16.net you would get a different story then 63, around 80 to 100 closer to what wiki and globalsecurity.org are projecting. I also googled this question "how many F-16 Pakistan have and got the answer to I believe 84.


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## Last Hope

Farooqi1 said:


> Don't know sir it is all confusing. If you go f16.net you would get a different story then 63, around 80 to 100 closer to what wiki and globalsecurity.org are projecting. I also googled this question "how many F-16 Pakistan have and got the answer to I believe 84.



63 are confirmed. As per my knowledge, provided to me by a journalist whose been to Jacobabad, ground control crew and confirmed by a Wing Commander, on a different squadron though, PAF has 36 Block-52+. No one believes it though. I was given information of the newer 18s few months before their delivery. 

That raises the number to 81.


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## Imran Khan

Farooqi1 said:


> Don't know sir it is all confusing. If you go f16.net you would get a different story then 63, around 80 to 100 closer to what wiki and globalsecurity.org are projecting. I also googled this question "how many F-16 Pakistan have and got the answer to I believe 84.



dear sir 

its 100s times we clear it here but still we have to do it again .

we got 40 between 1983 to 1989

8 of them lost crashed till 2005

remain 32 we have in 2005

we got 14 used in 2007


32+14 = 46

one we lost at 16th July 2009 sqn leader ghulam nabi was killed

we have 45 at 2009

we got 18 block-52 between these times so we have now

45+18 = 63 


we have 63 and that's it if someone give me a single real time other delivery he will be my teacher forever 

fan boys here create more numbers in dreams and enjoy it but in real we have 63 f-16 today .

and here is data of 9 crashes of PAF F-16s since 1983
List being compiled

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## Farooqi1

Last Hope said:


> 63 are confirmed. As per my knowledge, provided to me by a journalist whose been to Jacobabad, ground control crew and confirmed by a Wing Commander, on a different squadron though, PAF has 36 Block-52+. No one believes it though. I was given information of the newer 18s few months before their delivery.
> 
> That raises the number to 81.



81 is more in line with different web sources. Now this number includes on-hand and confirmed orders.



Imran Khan said:


> dear sir
> 
> its 100s times we clear it here but still we have to do it again .
> 
> we got 40 between 1983 to 1989
> 
> 8 of them lost crashed till 2005
> 
> remain 32 we have in 2005
> 
> we got 14 used in 2007
> 
> 
> 32+14 = 46
> 
> one we lost at 16th July 2009 sqn leader ghulam nabi was killed
> 
> we have 45 at 2009
> 
> we got 18 block-52 between these times so we have now
> 
> 45+18 = 63
> 
> 
> we have 63 and that's it if someone give me a single real time other delivery he will be my teacher forever
> 
> fan boys here create more numbers in dreams and enjoy it but in real we have 63 f-16 today .
> 
> and here is data of 9 crashes of PAF F-16s since 1983
> List being compiled



Naraz honey ki zarorat nahi hey Imran sahib. looks like you all have learand just one word "Fan Boy" and use it often


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## Donatello

Last Hope said:


> 63 are confirmed. As per my knowledge, provided to me by a journalist whose been to Jacobabad, ground control crew and confirmed by a Wing Commander, on a different squadron though, PAF has 36 Block-52+. No one believes it though. I was given information of the newer 18s few months before their delivery.
> 
> That raises the number to 81.



How did the numbers rise to 81? There were 63 F-16s accounted for. the Original 32 + 14 from EDA + 18 BLK52s. That gives 64, less 1 lost, so 63.

If we got another 18, secretly (which i don't believe) that makes it 81 but only if we got them. Now, unless PAF made a deal with USA before bin laden raid otherwise there is no mention of second batch of 18 f-16s.


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## Imran Khan

ok now we have serial numbers of all pakistani f-16s 

pakistani f-16s of 1983 to 1988
*
82601
82602
82603
82604
82701 crashed 22nd October 1994
82702
83703
83703
84606
84607
84608
84704
84705
84706
84707
84708
84709
84710
84711
84712
84713
84714
84715
84716
84717
84718
84719
85720 crashed 29th April 1987
85721 crashed 17th March 1994
85722
85723 crashed 16th June 1991
85724
85725 crashed 28th October 1991
85726
85727
85728*



note other crashes was in old serial numbers - 81-0910 - 81-1504 - 81-0937 + sqn leader saud serial number ????.

*used by USAF 2007
90613
92615
92616
92617
92618
92619
92620
92621
92622
92623
93620
93621
93622
94623


*
*block-52 2010

10801
10802
10803
10804
10805
10806
10901
10902
10903
10904
10905
10906
10907
10908
10909
10910
10911
10912
*

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## sancho

TOPGUN said:


> Very true ... that could be said for the older vipers A/B's but the new 18 blk 52's C/D's have cft for long range strike missions.



The CFTs were the point of discussion, where I said that they don't add additional fuel only to extend range in strike roles, but also extends endurance in air defence missions, which is not possible for PAFs F16 otherwise, since they can't be refuelled in air.


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> How did the numbers rise to 81? There were 63 F-16s accounted for. the Original 32 + 14 from EDA + 18 BLK52s. That gives 64, less 1 lost, so 63.
> 
> If we got another 18, secretly (which i don't believe) that makes it 81 but only if we got them. Now, unless PAF made a deal with USA before bin laden raid otherwise there is no mention of second batch of 18 f-16s.



they still owe us 14 A/B's


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## Abdul Quddoos

Imran Khan said:


> ok now we have serial numbers of all pakistani f-16s
> 
> pakistani f-16s of 1983 to 1988
> *
> 82601
> 82602
> 82603
> 82604
> 82701 crashed 22nd October 1994
> 82702
> 83703
> 83703
> 84606
> 84607
> 84608
> 84704
> 84705
> 84706
> 84707
> 84708
> 84709
> 84710
> 84711
> 84712
> 84713
> 84714
> 84715
> 84716
> 84717
> 84718
> 84719
> 85720 crashed 29th April 1987
> 85721 crashed 17th March 1994
> 85722
> 85723 crashed 16th June 1991
> 85724
> 85725 crashed 28th October 1991
> 85726
> 85727
> 85728*
> 
> 
> 
> note other crashes was in old serial numbers - 81-0910 - 81-1504 - 81-0937 + sqn leader saud serial number ????.
> 
> *used by USAF 2007
> 90613
> 92615
> 92616
> 92617
> 92618
> 92619
> 92620
> 92621
> 92622
> 92623
> 93620
> 93621
> 93622
> 94623
> 
> 
> *
> *block-52 2010
> 
> 10801
> 10802
> 10803
> 10804
> 10805
> 10806
> 10901
> 10902
> 10903
> 10904
> 10905
> 10906
> 10907
> 10908
> 10909
> 10910
> 10911
> 10912
> *


 
Sir, a question that rises in every Pakistani's mind that ARE AMERICANS NECESSARY ON EACH BASE WHERE THERE IS ANY F-16..?
Can't we send them back to their soil?


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## IPL5

Abdul Quddoos said:


> Sir, a question that raises in every Pakistani's mind that ARE AMERICANS NECESSARY ON EACH BASE WHERE THERE IS ANY F-16..?
> Can't we send them back to their soil?


there is a agreement between US and pakistan....you should know that pakistan has invested 125 mn usd for creating a infra for US personnel when they bought 18 block 52 from US


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## ziaulislam

well as imran bhai said we have 63. there is no confusion at all in the number

there is no chance to get 18 F-16C/Ds , pricing issue

but there is some chance of getting the 14 embargo ones..

technically they dont owe us any further they paid us in wheat i think.


in future if our relations are good and normal with US we may get older F-16 to make the number near 100 but thats highly speculated


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## Abdul Quddoos

IPL5 said:


> there is a agreement between US and pakistan....you should know that pakistan has invested 125 mn usd for creating a infra for US personnel when they bought 18 block 52 from US


 
That's why we're unable to shot down drones :/ ..!
Are they allowed to use internet too?


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## Edevelop

I thought we were going for used Norway F-16s. Any news on that?


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## Donatello

IPL5 said:


> there is a agreement between US and pakistan....you should know that pakistan has invested 125 mn usd for creating a infra for US personnel when they bought 18 block 52 from US



It was for the training personal from Lockheed Martin.

Don't twist the facts.........but then you are an Indian member. What can be expected of you?


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## Last Hope

Abdul Quddoos said:


> That's why we're unable to shot down drones :/ ..!
> Are they allowed to use internet too?



Shooting drones is easy, piece of cake. If not F-16s, JF-17, Mirage, F-7 or even Anza can take them down.
The drones operate with agreement of Government of Pakistan, that is why they are not being retaliated.

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## IPL5

Donatello said:


> It was for the training personal from Lockheed Martin.
> 
> Don't twist the facts.........but then you are an Indian member. What can be expected of you?



this is well on record .. US has five year agreement with you...kindly check with senior members.


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## TaimiKhan

IPL5 said:


> this is well on record .. US has five year agreement with you...kindly check with senior members.



Read what he said, the agreement is for lockheed martin people and their technical staff to keep us guiding as its new piece of machinery and we can't do this all alone. Plus they want to keep an eye on their jets that Chinese can't see it. 

They can't stop us from using the jets against anyone. Its for the defence of Pakistan.

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## IPL5

TaimiKhan said:


> Read what he said, the agreement is for lockheed martin people and their technical staff to keep us guiding as its new piece of machinery and we can't do this all alone. Plus they want to keep an eye on their jets that Chinese can't see it.
> 
> They can't stop us from using the jets against anyone. Its for the defence of Pakistan.



Did I say anything different ?


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## TaimiKhan

IPL5 said:


> Did I say anything different ?



a 125M $$ infrastructure for just 5-7 or 8 guys ?? Don't think so. 

The 125M price tag was for the whole base. That is where you said something different. 

And whenever you guys get any jet, you will receive technical people from the manufacturer for a few years. Standard practice.

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## Donatello

IPL5 said:


> this is well on record .. US has five year agreement with you...kindly check with senior members.



Please pay more attention to the post, before you jump to start an argument based on nothing.


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## IPL5

> Eventually, it was agreed that Pakistan would pay $80 million to perform the updates in Turkey. The U.S. also expressed concerns about basing the F-16s in Pakistan due to &#8220;concerns about potential technology transfer to China.&#8221; The outcome? Pakistan was made to fork out another $125 million to &#8220;build and secure a separate F-16 base&#8221;



The Hindu : News : Behind the Pakistan F-16 deal, a tale of many wheels


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## Last Hope

IPL5 said:


> Did I say anything different ?


Yes you did. 


TaimiKhan said:


> Read what he said, the agreement is for lockheed martin people and their technical staff to keep us guiding as its new piece of machinery and we can't do this all alone. Plus they want to keep an eye on their jets that Chinese can't see it.
> 
> They can't stop us from using the jets against anyone. Its for the defence of Pakistan.


And Pakistan has signed an agreement that there would be no Chinese, directly or indirectly, at Jacobabad.



IPL5 said:


> The Hindu : News : Behind the Pakistan F-16 deal, a tale of many wheels
> Eventually, it was agreed that Pakistan would pay $80 million to perform the updates in Turkey. The U.S. also expressed concerns about basing the F-16s in Pakistan due to concerns about potential technology transfer to China. The outcome? Pakistan was made to fork out another $125 million to *build and secure a separate F-16 base*



PAF Base Shahbaz, Jacobabad is not a new base.

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## IPL5

I guess what..you can't even comprehend the word Infra...my bad


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## Jango

Are these some firing testing areas or something?

This is PAF jacobabad.


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## Peaceful Civilian

fatman17 said:


> they still owe us 14 A/B's


Why are not they delivering those f16s??
Did they return us money after embargo decision??
Or Payment was not done at that time.
Anybody has information??


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## truthseeker2010

nuclearpak said:


> Are these some firing testing areas or something?
> 
> This is PAF jacobabad.



Might be weapons storage sites?


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## Last Hope

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Why are not they delivering those f16s??
> Did they return us money after embargo decision??
> Or Payment was not done at that time.
> Anybody has information??



Political reasons. They could today refuse any order we paid for saying Pakistan is hosting terrorism. 



nuclearpak said:


> Are these some firing testing areas or something?
> 
> This is PAF jacobabad.


Air-to-Ground weapon testing range.


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## Safriz

Aircraft bunkers..

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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> Air-to-Ground weapon testing range.



Air-to-ground??? Like, fired from air??

This place is right next to hangars and runway.



Safriz said:


> Aircraft bunkers..



Maybe for block 52's.

Look wide enough to accommodate 2 aircraft. But there are no markings leading up to them. Yellow lines.

And the top is probably sand.

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## Safriz

nuclearpak said:


> Air-to-ground??? Like, fired from air??
> 
> This place is right next to hangars and runway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe for block 52's.
> 
> Look wide enough to accommodate 2 aircraft. But there are no markings leading up to them. Yellow lines.
> 
> And the top is probably sand.



But Shahbaz base always had Bunkers....


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## truthseeker2010

Safriz said:


> Aircraft bunkers..




But the entrance is unusual, how will the aircraft come out of the hanger, how will it turn like there is no roam for the wingspan??


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## Safriz

truthseeker2010 said:


> But the entrance is unusual, how will the aircraft come out of the hanger, how will it turn like there is no roam for the wingspan??



Ok then we need Isro2222 help..
Its either zeeban or Gootan


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## Imran Khan

Abdul Quddoos said:


> Sir, a question that rises in every Pakistani's mind that ARE AMERICANS NECESSARY ON EACH BASE WHERE THERE IS ANY F-16..?
> Can't we send them back to their soil?



nope its wrong they are only at shahbaz just for technical support and training they are few in numbers don't be scared of them dear its normal .


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## Imran Khan

cb4 said:


> I thought we were going for used Norway F-16s. Any news on that?



they are junk yaar used over sea many years and all are very rare dear just look at them . and used very bady by them PAF rejet them already


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## Donatello

nuclearpak said:


> Are these some firing testing areas or something?
> 
> This is PAF jacobabad.



I doubt this is a weapons firing range.

Type PAF base Jacobadad on Google Maps, and you get to Jacobabad Airport. However, you will notice that there are aircraft storage sheds right next to runway, indicating PAF aircraft stationed there.

The picture that NuclearPak posted, shows a total of 9 shelters in line, with two ways/paths out of them, leading to the taxiway, indicating 18 such ways leading to the taxiway. We just got 18 F-16s there, so maybe these sheds are for new F-16s there. However, again, see on Google Earth, these sheds are lined up pretty far from the main and the only runway. Maybe they will construct a newer one close to these sheds in the future?

Please check GoogleEarth for a complete view of the base. You can also see two MI 17 helicopters parked on the Apron.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/15226-pakistan-f-16-discussions-2-a-175.html


Scroll down to post Number 2622.


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## Last Hope

Imran Khan said:


> they are junk yaar used over sea many years and all are very rare dear just look at them . and used very bady by them PAF rejet them already


PAF buys old and used a/c and with strong, one-of-it's kind maintenance, they increase the life. Won't be difficult.


Donatello said:


> I doubt this is a weapons firing range.
> 
> Type PAF base Jacobadad on Google Maps, and you get to Jacobabad Airport. However, you will notice that there are aircraft storage sheds right next to runway, indicating PAF aircraft stationed there.
> 
> The picture that NuclearPak posted, shows a total of 9 shelters in line, with two ways/paths out of them, leading to the taxiway, indicating 18 such ways leading to the taxiway. We just got 18 F-16s there, so maybe these sheds are for new F-16s there. However, again, see on Google Earth, these sheds are lined up pretty far from the main and the only runway. Maybe they will construct a newer one close to these sheds in the future?
> 
> Please check GoogleEarth for a complete view of the base. You can also see two MI 17 helicopters parked on the Apron.
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/15226-pakistan-f-16-discussions-2-a-175.html
> 
> 
> Scroll down to post Number 2622.



Nice observations. PAF Base Shahbaz was building new and modern hangars for the Vipers, and they were not just 18 hangars but close to 50. JF-17 Block II is planned to be placed at the same base.


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## Donatello

Last Hope said:


> Nice observations. PAF Base Shahbaz was building new and modern hangars for the Vipers, and they were not just 18 hangars but close to 50. JF-17 Block II is planned to be placed at the same base.




I was referring to the nine, in line sheds, that NuclearPak's posted picture shows (#5521). You can see two paths out of them, and that leads to 18 paths, and sheds look big, can accommodate maybe 18 aircraft.

If you explore the PAF base Shahbaz on Google earth as i said, you definitely see a lot more sheds there, around the main runway though. Those were for Mirage that were stationed there, and perhaps still are in reserve.

JF-17 BLK II is still far away, as the next batch of JF-17s (BLL I ) is going to PAF Masroor.


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## Imran Khan

Last Hope said:


> PAF buys old and used a/c and with strong, one-of-it's kind maintenance, they increase the life. Won't be difficult.



they are finished their life span i think and not worthy to waste money on them . they are mlued in 90s and last bird was MLUed at 2001 so they are used after MLU 12 more years . another importent note is here .
Norway's short and snowy runways, which are often located at dispersed sites, dictated that their F-16s be fitted with braking parachutes to handle situations where ordinary wheel brakes could not be used.
so hey are hell used on snowy runways and short runways some 30 years


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## Last Hope

Donatello said:


> I was referring to the nine, in line sheds, that NuclearPak's posted picture shows (#5521). You can see two paths out of them, and that leads to 18 paths, and sheds look big, can accommodate maybe 18 aircraft.
> 
> If you explore the PAF base Shahbaz on Google earth as i said, you definitely see a lot more sheds there, around the main runway though. Those were for Mirage that were stationed there, and perhaps still are in reserve.
> 
> JF-17 BLK II is still far away, as the next batch of JF-17s (BLL I ) is going to PAF Masroor.



The can't wait for the Block II to arrive and then construct hangars? 
Currently, there is heavy work going at PAF base Shahbaz.

By the way, there are 32 Hangars right next to runways. Those are sheltering the Block 52+.
And these storage, they are too far for fighters (and firing zone). The road leading to runway is too narrow for a aircraft, could be weapons storage.


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## ice_man

keeping F-16s at shahbaz is insanity i believe it is too close to the border for any indian missile salvo. but then again maybe PAF knows something that i don't


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## Abdul Quddoos

Safriz said:


> Aircraft bunkers..


 
Why are we leaking too much info about our airbase..?
Are we trying to show our utmost INFORMTION LEVEL by such stupid means :/ .. Post guards did'nt allowed me to capture some pictures of Jinnah Beraj Map (sikandrabad) and we are exposing every bit of our AIR FORCE ASSETS.
Why are we sooOO INTELLIGENT..? :\
:|

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## Abdul Quddoos

Imran Khan said:


> nope its wrong they are only at shahbaz just for technical support and training they are few in numbers don't be scared of them dear its normal .


 
Bro, are they allowed to contact anywhere outside the base...?


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## Abdul Quddoos

Imran Khan said:


> they are junk yaar used over sea many years and all are very rare dear just look at them . and used very bady by them PAF rejet them already


 
Bro, these junks can help us , getting very useful spare parts to maintain our present fleet for long, thus relying less on america who rejects our each HUMBLE request for spare parts. :'(


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## Last Hope

Abdul Quddoos said:


> Why are we leaking too much info about our airbase..?
> Are we trying to show our utmost INFORMTION LEVEL by such stupid means :/ .. Post guards did'nt allowed me to capture some pictures of Jinnah Beraj Map (sikandrabad) and we are exposing every bit of our AIR FORCE ASSETS.
> Why are we sooOO INTELLIGENT..? :\
> :|



This information, and other that is yet kept classified, is already known by India and US.
We are not posting what is sensitive. There is a lot more out there which you and general public have no idea about, so no worries. This is even on google earth, hence anyone in the world will get it. Not a strategic secret.

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## Jango

Abdul Quddoos said:


> Why are we leaking too much info about our airbase..?
> Are we trying to show our utmost INFORMTION LEVEL by such stupid means :/ .. Post guards did'nt allowed me to capture some pictures of Jinnah Beraj Map (sikandrabad) and we are exposing every bit of our AIR FORCE ASSETS.
> Why are we sooOO INTELLIGENT..? :\
> :|



There is nothing sensitive being said here. Everybody knows what we talk about.

BTW, that pic is not of a Pakistai airbase.

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## Abdul Quddoos

WELCOME BACK EVERYONE...


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## Imran Khan

Abdul Quddoos said:


> Bro, these junks can help us , getting very useful spare parts to maintain our present fleet for long, thus relying less on america who rejects our each HUMBLE request for spare parts. :'(



why we do it when we are not under sanctions and we got large cache of parts recently? we can buy parts anytime from lockheed if we need them .and don't forget PAF learn a lesson last time .



Abdul Quddoos said:


> Bro, are they allowed to contact anywhere outside the base...?



yes they are allowed . they are not in jail .they have laptops cell phones and whatever we are not scared of them man dont think kiddish way they are few tech nothing more .

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## kawaraj

thanks for the efforts, it's finally up.


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## Peaceful Civilian

Any plan of PAF to go for optional 18 f16Blk 52+???
I think as numbers are concerned, We should enhance F16 around 100+,- and these more 18Blk 52+ should be inducted in PAF before 2014-15 as to fill the gap of J10 and Jf17 blockII,III.


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## Imran Khan

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Any plan of PAF to go for optional 18 f16Blk 52+???
> I think as numbers are concerned, We should enhance F16 around 100+,- and these more 18Blk 52+ should be inducted in PAF before 2014-15 as to fill the gap of J10 and Jf17 blockII,III.




are we ready for more dirty games of USA ? if yes then go ahead if we are living for F-16 on earth we should do it otherwise world is so big and options are so many

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## Peaceful Civilian

Imran Khan said:


> are we ready for more dirty games of USA ? if yes then go ahead if we are living for F-16 on earth we should do it otherwise world is so big and options are so many


Rafale and Euro fighter are too expensive for 18 jets. Even no history of PAF for Basic/elite training on these jets.
This will cost 3 times more than f16 Blk 52+ as to incurr extra training costs and other new factors to learn and use.


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## HANI

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Rafale and Euro fighter are too expensive for 18 jets. Even no history of PAF for Basic/elite training on these jets.
> This will cost 3 times more than f16 Blk 52+ as to incurr extra training costs and other new factors to learn and use.



can,t say about Rafale but i think PAF pilots gets some training on Saudi euro fighters ..... correct me plz if am wrong


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## Imran Khan

Peaceful Civlian said:


> Rafale and Euro fighter are too expensive for 18 jets. Even no history of PAF for Basic/elite training on these jets.
> This will cost 3 times more than f16 Blk 52+ as to incurr extra training costs and other new factors to learn and use.


there is more birds then refale and eu fighters?
we have more options .BTW its not our goal to buy jets but save the nation

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## Peaceful Civilian

HANI said:


> can,t say about Rafale but i think PAF pilots gets some training on Saudi euro fighters ..... correct me plz if am wrong


Your source of Information??


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## Abdul Quddoos

Imran Khan said:


> why we do it when we are not under sanctions and we got large cache of parts recently? we can buy parts anytime from lockheed if we need them .and don't forget PAF learn a lesson last time .


Sir, I agree. we bought, but for what cost? don't you think spare parts come with many BRAND NEW DO MORES. And in many cases these were delayed because DO MORES were what we rejected (in such case crap can help) in many cases e.g, operations in waziristan was one of them and we have to go after all, because we don't want our frontline fighter be grounded. We have to do first, what americans wanted, for spare parts.


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## Arsalan

Imran Khan said:


> are we ready for more dirty games of USA ? if yes then go ahead if we are living for F-16 on earth we should do it otherwise world is so big and options are so many



agreed,
our relations with US are not such that we can relay on them for a front line main stay fighter jet for PAF.


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## Imran Khan

arsalanaslam123 said:


> agreed,
> our relations with US are not such that we can relay on them for a front line main stay fighter jet for PAF.



its look by some posters we are here just for f-16 we have to make future policy foreign policy just F-16 . to hell with f-16 its not f-22 damn we have more then 5 options for 4++ gen now a days when world is moving to 5th gen .how many more years we will begg and work for USA just for f-16 ?

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## Arsalan

Imran Khan said:


> its look by some posters we are here just for f-16 we have to make future policy foreign policy just F-16 . to hell with f-16 its not f-22 damn we have more then 5 options for 4++ gen now a days when world is moving to 5th gen .how many more years we will begg and work for USA just for f-16 ?



apart from only beggine to get these, we then have to beg to fly these as well.

no disrespect to the F-16, as you said, in time when world is moving to 5th generation, the F-16 is still among the best fighter jets available. however, the point is that we have other options open, the JF-17 is on track and can be a perfect replacement of F-16 as the new block develop. is have an open structure design and the integration of modern upgrades will be possible. J-10B is around the corner and PAF is keen to go for J-10B or FC-20 what ever it may be called!

with the new 5th generation being developed, PAC learning fast with the JFT, China developing some of the finest war machines, F-16 or you may say, a US made fighter jet is no more a good choice for us!

best regards!

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## fatman17

17 May 1986 
A Pakistani F-16 shoots down a Su-22 of the Afghan Air Force, making Pakistan the second country after Israel to put F-16s into military action.
(Read more...)

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> 17 May 1986
> A Pakistani F-16 shoots down a Su-22 of the Afghan Air Force, making Pakistan the second country after Israel to put F-16s into military action.
> (Read more...)



17 May 1986, Sqn. Ldr. A. Hameed Qadri of No. 9 Squadron, flying an F-16A Fighting Falcon (S. No. 82-723) from PAF Base, Sargodha, shot down 2 Soviet/Afghan Su-22s in a single sortie 16,000 ft. over Parachinar, Pakistan. 1 AIM-9L Sidewinder Kill, 1 Gun Kill.

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## Meejee

Windjammer said:


> 17 May 1986, Sqn. Ldr. A. Hameed Qadri of No. 9 Squadron, flying an F-16A Fighting Falcon (S. No. 82-723) from PAF Base, Sargodha, shot down 2 Soviet/Afghan Su-22s in a single sortie 16,000 ft. over Parachinar, Pakistan. 1 AIM-9L Sidewinder Kill, 1 Gun Kill.



What was the time frame between the first scramble notice to the shooting down?


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## fatman17

Meejee said:


> What was the time frame between the first scramble notice to the shooting down?



PAF was doing 2 things - flying CAPs and on QRA (2 to 6 mins) from scramble.

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## Edevelop



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## epinephrine

Imran Khan said:


> its look by some posters we are here just for f-16 we have to make future policy foreign policy just F-16 . to hell with f-16 its not f-22 damn we have more then 5 options for 4++ gen now a days when world is moving to 5th gen .how many more years we will begg and work for USA just for f-16 ?



apart from Jf-17 n J-1o wat are the other three 4th gen jet options for PAF which we can afford to buy?no country is willing to sell jets to pak.our politicians are not working for US for F-16s but for dollars.they are least bothered about F-16s or pakistan.with F-7s and mirages getting much older and slow production rate of JFTs these F-16s are our only choice.once we get our hands on J-10 n large number of JFTs only then we can think about getting rid of F-16s


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## Imran Khan

epinephrine said:


> apart from Jf-17 n J-1o wat are the other three 4th gen jet options for PAF which we can afford to buy?no country is willing to sell jets to pak.our politicians are not working for US for F-16s but for dollars.they are least bothered about F-16s or pakistan.with F-7s and mirages getting much older and slow production rate of JFTs these F-16s are our only choice.once we get our hands on J-10 n large number of JFTs only then we can think about getting rid of F-16s


any link abut jft slow production sir?
BTW in 2006 when we by f-16 we have options more then these three still we select it because fill the gap and pass the time till we have jf-17 and j-10 in hands . now we actually don't need more fighters but we need to wait .its not hobby to buy plane but needs .abut economy if you know it we have 10 years boom 10 years slow since 1947 .50s slow 60s fastest 70s slow 80fastest 90 slow 2000s was fastest dont you worry abut selling us . after MMRCA DONE now you can go grippen eu fighter j-11 j-10 even if you pay Russia will sold you mig-35 or su-35 . its not matter of no one want to sale its matter of are we need them and we have cash to spend on it .


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## alimobin memon

epinephrine said:


> apart from Jf-17 n J-1o wat are the other three 4th gen jet options for PAF which we can afford to buy?no country is willing to sell jets to pak.our politicians are not working for US for F-16s but for dollars.they are least bothered about F-16s or pakistan.with F-7s and mirages getting much older and slow production rate of JFTs these F-16s are our only choice.once we get our hands on J-10 n large number of JFTs only then we can think about getting rid of F-16s



Brother when country wants to buy , market is open and when we already have built our fighter and china our biggest ally has offered it's j10 and j11 i don't think we need to think about others


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## Armstrong

A noob question : 

Have we managed to reverse engineer any part of these F-16s that we've been flying for the better part of 2-3 decades now ? Perhaps some avionics, something significant that we learned during overhauling the engines or be able to reverse engineer some of the armaments that these birds carried ?

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## Last Hope

alimobin memon said:


> Brother when country wants to buy , *market is open *and when we already have built our fighter and china our biggest ally has offered it's j10 and j11 i don't think we need to think about others


It is extremely limited for Pakistan.


Armstrong said:


> A noob question :
> 
> Have we managed to reverse engineer any part of these F-16s that we've been flying for the better part of 2-3 decades now ? Perhaps some avionics, something significant that we learned during overhauling the engines or be able to reverse engineer some of the armaments that these birds carried ?


Probably. You never know.

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## Safriz

Armstrong said:


> A noob question :
> 
> Have we managed to reverse engineer any part of these F-16s that we've been flying for the better part of 2-3 decades now ? Perhaps some avionics, something significant that we learned during overhauling the engines or be able to reverse engineer some of the armaments that these birds carried ?


 
there were many such rumors in the past and may well be true..
But due to copyright restrictions it wont be officially admitted.

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## fatman17

Safriz said:


> there were many such rumors in the past and may well be true..
> But due to copyright restrictions it wont be officially admitted.



nothing of the such has happened. when the embargo was on, PAF purchased spares from open commercial sources and paid a heavy price for them. recently they have ordered spares worth US$75m, mainly for F16's under FMS.

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## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> A noob question :
> 
> Have we managed to reverse engineer any part of these F-16s that we've been flying for the better part of 2-3 decades now ? Perhaps some avionics, something significant that we learned during overhauling the engines or be able to reverse engineer some of the armaments that these birds carried ?



Never.. the PAF may be sources upgrade parts and spares from the open market(Israel etc).. but apart from coming up with a half baked data cartridge for mission planning.. they never reverse engineered anything.

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## Safriz

fatman17 said:


> nothing of the such has happened. when the embargo was on, PAF purchased spares from open commercial sources and paid a heavy price for them. recently they have ordered spares worth US$75m, mainly for F16's under FMS.


 
i have a bad memory but there was a report in a PAF megazine of an airman being courtmarshalled on tampering with F-16 parts......
he had been doing "jugaarh" on cartain parts and extending their life .


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## SQ8

Safriz said:


> i have a bad memory but there was a report in a PAF megazine of an airman being courtmarshalled on tampering with F-16 parts......
> he had been doing "jugaarh" on cartain parts and extending their life .



Such idiocy's have happened before.. such as some "enterprising" airman deciding to use mirage nuts,bolts..etc on an F-16 which led to its loss(91).


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## epinephrine

Imran Khan said:


> any link abut jft slow production sir?
> BTW in 2006 when we by f-16 we have options more then these three still we select it because fill the gap and pass the time till we have jf-17 and j-10 in hands . now we actually don't need more fighters but we need to wait .its not hobby to buy plane but needs .abut economy if you know it we have 10 years boom 10 years slow since 1947 .50s slow 60s fastest 70s slow 80fastest 90 slow 2000s was fastest dont you worry abut selling us . after MMRCA DONE now you can go grippen eu fighter j-11 j-10 even if you pay Russia will sold you mig-35 or su-35 . its not matter of no one want to sale its matter of are we need them and we have cash to spend on it .



so wat are the jets on our options beside F-16 and the chinese jets?rafale,typhoon,grippen,F-15,F-18,sukhois.we can never afford any of these jets except the grippen and we dont need grippen.it is not going to bring anything newer so we dont need it.so by default we are left with F-16s n chinese jets.
u dont need any link for the slow production rate of JF-17.u can see it with ur own eyes.around 35 jets so far.so how long we will take to induct thunders in sufficient numbers to replace all mirages and F-7s?
u said we dont need jets.look at our fleet.mirages and F-7 are obsolete by any standards.ROSE mirages are better but still their basic design is more than half a century old.the crash rate is increasing.we do need jets but the problem is we neither have the money nor the "options".so wat we do is wait till we make JFTs in numbers n china develops J-10B or we do more dirty work for america n get more F-16S.in my opnion the last option is the worst option


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## Armstrong

fatman17 said:


> nothing of the such has happened. when the embargo was on, PAF purchased spares from open commercial sources and paid a heavy price for them. recently they have ordered spares worth US$75m, mainly for F16's under FMS.


 


Oscar said:


> Never.. the PAF may be sources upgrade parts and spares from the open market(Israel etc).. but apart from coming up with a half baked data cartridge for mission planning.. they never reverse engineered anything.



Any particular reason why ? Is it because reverse engineer involves a lot..lot more than just a two word term and we hadn't the capabilities to pull it off or is it because the PAF just didn't want to put in jeopardy any probable future acquisitions even if the component reverse engineered was insignificant with respect to the air-craft as a whole ? And does the same apply to the Mirages ?


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## Storm Force

Epinephrine

your rmark


> can see it with ur own eyes.around 35 jets so far.so how long we will take to induct thunders in sufficient numbers to replace all mirages and F-7s?



35- JFT or 2 sdqs in 3 years is a REASONABLE RATE. of induction. 

Dont read too much into FANBOY stuff of 200 Thunders by 2015 and stealth upgrades etc you will be disappointed. 

4TH GENERATION combat planes are complex expensive hardware... PAF will need a FULL DECADE before this is inducted in useful nos and had at least one extenstive upgrade programme to block 2.

I am not just making this up i am using the examples of fighter programmes like su30mki typhoon & rafale and gripen ng. as good indications of annually procurement and timeframes from block 1 to block 2 upgrades...

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## Najam Khan

Oscar said:


> Never.. the PAF may be sources upgrade parts and spares from the open market(Israel etc).. but apart from coming up with a half baked data cartridge for mission planning.. they never reverse engineered anything.



Rumour has it that the F-16 which collided was a pig on the runway was given to Chinese for detail analysis. But we never reverse engineered anything...There is an interesting story I came across from an engineer. The original Mirages bought from France being v.expensive came with lots of strict SOPs and maintenance guidelines. Engineers never dared to open its components unless Sqn cmdr gives the permission. There was some component in its cockpit, which was regularly sent to France...and came back after great time and big invoice.

One day a young Flt Lt sahab decided to open that up on its own..when he opened it wasn't something complex. It had some rechargeable AA size batteries for backup power...since that day, PAF start repairing this module on its own

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## Windjammer

Najam Khan said:


> Rumour has it that the F-16 which collided was a pig on the runway was given to Chinese for detail analysis. But we never reverse engineered anything...There is an interesting story I came across from an engineer. The original Mirages bought from France being v.expensive came with lots of strict SOPs and maintenance guidelines. Engineers never dared to open its components unless Sqn cmdr gives the permission. There was some component in its cockpit, which was regularly sent to France...and came back after great time and big invoice.
> 
> One day a young Flt Lt sahab decided to open that up on its own..when he opened it wasn't something complex. It had some rechargeable AA size batteries for backup power...since that day, PAF start repairing this module on its own



It was actually a wild boar which took a liking to the Sargodha runway. The wrecked F-16 was indeed passed on to the Chinese.
Ironically, one of my first post on this forum touched this subject but a certain member was very critical of me and even requested the administration to "get this idiot off the forum". !!

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## Armstrong

The Air-Craft was passed onto the Chinese and the Americans didn't create any problems for us ? Strange...!


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## Imran Khan

Armstrong said:


> The Air-Craft was passed onto the Chinese and the Americans didn't create any problems for us ? Strange...!



as they know what we did lolz. that time pakistan was not playground of CIA dear,
its happen on

18 Dec 1986 85609 81-1504 [PAF] PAF 38 TW F-16B Block 15U 


Details

The aircraft took off from Sargodha AB and hit a wild boar causing the two pilots to eject.

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## ziaulislam

IF it happened then i think they knew about it but were quiet because of soviet problem and the fact that chinese were relatively friendly to them and anti soviet at that time.


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## Jango

Najam Khan said:


> One day a young Flt Lt sahab decided to open that up on its own..when he opened it wasn't something complex. It had some rechargeable AA size batteries for *backup power.*..since that day, PAF start repairing this module on its own



Backup power?

Isn't there an APU for that???

Or is it for a small secluded component?


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## DANGER-ZONE

ababeel22 said:


> spoke to a iaf pilot today and he was adamant that mirages in iaf are far better than f16s in paf.



Well if you had asked him about TEJAS role for IAF you might get a positive Ans there as well. 
It happens every where where. Glad it made u happy that was the real purpose of that answer.

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## nomi007

i ask 1 question to all the experts
if us impose sanctions on pakistan 
than can we maintain these news f-16s block 52
i hear by my friend who is in air force told me that the when our pilots starts flying f-16s the software load from usa each and every time
suppose he is true than what we will do with these junks


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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> i ask 1 question to all the experts
> if us impose sanctions on pakistan
> than can we maintain these news f-16s block 52
> i hear by my friend who is in air force told me that the when our pilots starts flying f-16s the software load from usa each and every time
> suppose he is true than what we will do with these junks


 
no its not true we can maintain them few years of sanctions dear do you really think paf think tanks are dumb ?

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## araz

The F16buy had political and other considerations. Both of these have been fulfilled. We have the planes in our hands. We now need to think of how to improve what we are going to acquire next. From that aspect and the sheer realization that PAF is not wholly reliant on F16s we can say that sanctions if any in future wil not affect us as badly as when we were fully reliant on these planes. The future is red and green gentlemen!!!
Araz

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## epinephrine

US can,t impose sanctions on pak till 2014-15 atleast n till that time we will be having J-10s inshaALLAH n more JFTs


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## Last Hope

nomi007 said:


> i ask 1 question to all the experts
> if us impose sanctions on pakistan
> than can we maintain these news f-16s block 52
> i hear by my friend who is in air force told me that the when our pilots starts flying f-16s the software load from usa each and every time
> suppose he is true than what we will do with these junks



That is an excellent question.
Once the US stops the spare parts for the Block 52+s, there is no way we can operate them and they would be kept in hangars to rust. And the supply of spares would be minimized or stopped once this 'War on Terror' is end. This was part of the 'strings' or 'conditions' that PAF will not operate these new fighters against India and will be solely used in WoT. But we placed them right next to Indian border so guess what the intentions are.

What about the software load in US? You mean the software gets loaded from US by US permission? I don't think that is true but they do have record of the activities.

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## JunaidP

AMRAAMS soley to be used in WoT??

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## Bratva

JunaidP said:


> AMRAAMS soley to be used in WoT??



Missiles are allowed to cross the Border but not the Plane.

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## Najam Khan

nuclearpak said:


> Backup power?
> *
> Isn't there an APU for that???*
> 
> Or is it for a small secluded component?



APU is for the entire aircraft. I was talking about a small module inside the cockpit. For reference take the example of small cell in you computer's motherboard.

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## Peaceful Civilian

Last Hope said:


> That is an excellent question.
> Once the US stops the spare parts for the Block 52+s, there is no way we can operate them and they would be kept in hangars to rust. And the supply of spares would be minimized or stopped once this 'War on Terror' is end. This was part of the 'strings' or 'conditions' that PAF will not operate these new fighters against India and will be solely used in WoT. But we placed them right next to Indian border so guess what the intentions are.
> 
> What about the software load in US? You mean the software gets loaded from US by US permission? I don't think that is true but they do have record of the activities.


These days spare parts are not problem. Even after 1998 sanction, we got spare parts from Israel but it was costly. Many companies are making spare parts even in turkey. 
Companies are concerned with money, They don't care you are ally or enemy. Just show them Blue money, You are always welcome !!


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## Jango

Najam Khan said:


> APU is for the entire aircraft. I was talking about a small module inside the cockpit. For reference take the example of small cell in you computer's motherboard.



_Backup power_ kind of caught my eye!


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## baqai

Windjammer said:


> It was actually a wild boar which took a liking to the Sargodha runway. The wrecked F-16 was indeed passed on to the Chinese.
> Ironically, one of my first post on this forum touched this subject but a certain member was very critical of me and even requested the administration to "get this idiot off the forum". !!



so this actually did happened? i always thought it was one of the "moral boaster" kind of story


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## JunaidP

mafiya said:


> Missiles are allowed to cross the Border but not the Plane.



yes im very much aware of that.. i was saying in context to this statement "This was part of the 'strings' or 'conditions' that PAF will not operate these new fighters against India and *will be solely used in WoT*." provision of Amraams by the US of A means the Blk52s can be used as "self defense" against India instead of solely for WoT.


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## TOPGUN

JunaidP said:


> yes im very much aware of that.. i was saying in context to this statement "This was part of the 'strings' or 'conditions' that PAF will not operate these new fighters against India and *will be solely used in WoT*." provision of Amraams by the US of A means the Blk52s can be used as "self defense" against India instead of solely for WoT.



GOD forgive incase of war i assure you these vipers will be and shall be used against any enemy even across the border the rest is all BS what you think PAF bought these for the show of it . These are war birds of PAF ( PAKISTAN) and shall be used and will be used against any enemy simply.


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## nomi007

Peaceful Civlian said:


> These days spare parts are not problem. Even after 1998 sanction, we got spare parts from Israel but it was costly. Many companies are making spare parts even in turkey.
> Companies are concerned with money, They don't care you are ally or enemy. Just show them Blue money, You are always welcome !!


o heared about turkey supports but israeli supports
you have any source


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## Windjammer



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## Last Hope

TOPGUN said:


> GOD forgive incase of war i assure you these vipers will be and shall be used against any enemy even across the border the rest is all BS what you think PAF bought these for the show of it . These are war birds of PAF ( PAKISTAN) and shall be used and will be used against any enemy simply.



Exactly what I said, but would be followed by some restrictions and strains. The source for the deal that these birds won't be used by PAF against India or any of US's allies is from a post by fatman.
Means, the US would halt the supplies or sell at twice higher rate. You know, it's the US.


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## Viper0011.

Last Hope said:


> Exactly what I said, but would be followed by some restrictions and strains. The source for the deal that these birds won't be used by PAF against India or any of US's allies is from a post by fatman.
> Means, the US would halt the supplies or sell at twice higher rate. You know, it's the US.


 
Here's where I differ with a lot of members on this forum (when it comes to the US and it's foreign policy). Why the US doesn't have any problems with Malaysia or Turkey? They are muslim countries as well. In fact, Malaysia is one of the largest semi conductor computer chips manufacturer (Intel, AMD, etc) both have R&D, Design & Manufacturing facilities in Malaysia. Turkey produces a lot of American weapons internally with American tech (F 16's are just one example).

So we need to sit down and think beyond the romance between India & the US (which in my opinion is a need based relationship to contain China and it'll last for about 20 years till the US gets a kick in the belly from India as India is JUST after US dollars...and they are NO US friends).

So, when we take a critical look at Pakistan (who's been a US ally for better or worse for over 60 years)...one has to pay attention to what are the causes? A few things are, corruption, fundamentalism, and lack of national focus towards prosperity. 

It is in the US's BEST interests to have a stable, Taliban free Pakistan. The Baluchistan and other deals are also happening because of the violence and fundamentalism. Of course, the Indian influence plays a role but if Pakistan's economy was to do better, than the same country will kiss its **** for business. Right now, the Pakistan's government gets their salaries from the US and then they don't do what the masters want them to do, so naturally, you'll piss off the master. The best way to fix this is to become a self sufficient country and a bigger economy where no aid comes in and money is discussed as a business transaction, not aid from the US. Then, you'll see a sea of change.
Similarly, if these F 16's didn't have a component of American FMS, Pakistan would be able to use them in any way shape or form and without having to worry any sanctions. Remember, any country who gives money as aid, can impose sanctions. But no country would want to impose sanctions if you are helping them create jobs and enhance their economy through buying their jets. So can't blame the US for everything. Pakistani leadership has done (over decades), a lot to setup a wrong image in front of the world!

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## Windjammer

*Not sure if these have been posted before, but capturing the F-16 in the right angles makes it even more impressive.
*

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## Irfan Baloch

the gas exhaust coming out of the F-16 in first picture looks very similar to one JF-17 picture and I am wondering if this exhaust has been photoshoped?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...irole-fighter-thread-4-a-444.html#post2956485


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## Windjammer

Irfan Baloch said:


> the gas exhaust coming out of the F-16 in first picture looks very similar to one JF-17 picture and I am wondering if this exhaust has been photoshoped?
> 
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...irole-fighter-thread-4-a-444.html#post2956485



No sir, any aircraft taking off with after burner engaged will leave such on exhaust trail which becomes more visible from a distance.


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## Windjammer



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## Edevelop

Correct me if i'm wrong. We ordered 36 F-16 Block 52 but untill now we have received 18?


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## Liquidmetal

cb4 said:


> Correct me if i'm wrong. We ordered 36 F-16 Block 52 but untill now we have received 18?



I believe we only ordered 18 due to the earthquake which presented an opportunity to divert funds elsewhere...


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## Windjammer

cb4 said:


> Correct me if i'm wrong. We ordered 36 F-16 Block 52 but untill now we have received 18?



The order was cut back after the 2005 earthquake, hence all 18 ordered have been delivered now.


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## Edevelop

Here is something interesting:

After Pakistan's help in the war on terror, the US lifted the embargo. In 2005, Pakistan requested 24 new Block 50/52 F-16C/Ds (*with option for as much as 55 aircraft*). Ultimately an order for 18 F-16s was placed with an option on another 18.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article14.html


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## Imran Khan

cb4 said:


> Correct me if i'm wrong. We ordered 36 F-16 Block 52 but untill now we have received 18?



a senoir member should not ask such silly qes yaar sorry to say my brother


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## Manticore

May 29, 2012 RNLAF: Reduction to 42 F-16s &#8211; Airbase Leeuwarden Closed (edited for style)The Dutch air force has been cut down to 68 F-16s since the end of the Cold War, but money is so tight it will be able to replace them with only 42 F-35sand the Main Operating Base Leeuwarden will soon lose its F-16 squadrons. RNLAF: Reduction to 42 F-16s


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## Imran Khan

ANTIBODY said:


> RNLAF: Reduction to 42 F-16s &#8211; Airbase Leeuwarden Closed (edited for style)The Dutch air force has been cut down to 68 F-16s since the end of the Cold War, but money is so tight it will be able to replace them with only 42 F-35sand the Main Operating Base Leeuwarden will soon lose its F-16 squadrons. RNLAF: Reduction to 42 F-16s



not worthy for us already discussed many times sir jee .


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## Edevelop

Imran Khan said:


> a senoir member should not ask such silly qes yaar sorry to say my brother



Sometimes there is confusion when you hear about media reports saying we are getting 'more'


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## Imran Khan

cb4 said:


> Sometimes there is confusion when you hear about media reports saying we are getting 'more'



there is nothing confusion sir jee 18 we got 18 was option which we should forget abut them now

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## regular

cb4 said:


> Sometimes there is confusion when you hear about media reports saying we are getting 'more'


For Sure, Our media bluffs all the time to keep pplz/public happi to get cheap publicity, my friend......


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## Peaceful Civilian

When will U.S.A supply remaining 14 out of 28 F16 A/B while they accepted many times that Pakistan paid all the money, but from embargoed 28, only 14 are delivered.
Even
on September 30th, 2006 the contract was signed between the Pakistani and US government for the acquisition of 18 new F-16C/D block 52 aircraft and an option for another 18 more. In the deal the re-delivery of the 26 remaining Peace Gate III/IV aircraft was also agreed 
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article14.html


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## fatman17

Peaceful Civlian said:


> When will U.S.A supply remaining 14 out of 28 F16 A/B while they accepted many times that Pakistan paid all the money, but from embargoed 28, only 14 are delivered.
> Even
> on September 30th, 2006 the contract was signed between the Pakistani and US government for the acquisition of 18 new F-16C/D block 52 aircraft and an option for another 18 more. In the deal the re-delivery of the 26 remaining Peace Gate III/IV aircraft was also agreed
> http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article14.html



the remaining 14 peace-gate F16's are in the use of USN. they refuse to part with them. as an alternate US offered 14 EDA F-16 blk40's which will require MLU. now the process of 'selecting' the best available 'airframes' was in process. what is the status of this excercise? dont know. as an another alternative PAF requested 14 new F16's which is under discussion but with the way things are, the US-PK -DCC has not been held.

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## air marshal

Self deleted!


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## Abu Zolfiqar

fatman17 said:


> the remaining 14 peace-gate F16's are in the use of USN. they refuse to part with them. as an alternate US offered 14 EDA F-16 blk40's which will require MLU. now the process of 'selecting' the best available 'airframes' was in process. what is the status of this excercise? dont know. as an another alternative PAF requested 14 new F16's which is under discussion but with the way things are, the US-PK -DCC has not been held.



under 'current environment' i see no progression on this matter!


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## muse

It's like a cartoon story - US uses these F16 as bait for the last 30 years - Pakistanis continue to fall for this ploy - the heck with F16's move on already - is there any past that you guys don't want to be stuck in??

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## BATMAN



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## Donatello

BATMAN said:


>



'Together we made it possible, Viper Reborn'

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## Nishan_101

It would be a great moment for the PAF if we had succeeded in 2002 with U.S in getting 28 of our F-16s along with 30-50 new Block-52s and may be 24 from Venuezvella too. So we can upgrade all of the 31+28+24 F-16s in Turkey from 2003-2007 with a contract with the U.S that they won't going to stop the supply of parts in any way buy paying the cost of upgradation on our won.


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## nomi007

cb4 said:


> Sometimes there is confusion when you hear about media reports saying we are getting 'more'


why confusion brother
you are not child

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## Jango

THis isn't really a PAF F-16 but releated to F-16's in general.

1- Is this a bombing run, I doubt it is because there doesn't seem that a bomb is dropped, and then the kind way they expllode.

2- Is there a real bomb that can do stuff like this?

3- Do we have this kind of bomb?


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## CanadianPad

Looks like pyrotechnics. 
Seems like an air show. It is at an airport with other aircraft also parked near by.


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## Imran Khan

after MLU

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## Jango

CanadianPad said:


> Looks like pyrotechnics.
> Seems like an air show. It is at an airport with other aircraft also parked near by.



Yeah, i checked on it, and it was explosives planted to the ground, no bombing.


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## fatman17

*&#8220;In thrust we trust!&#8221; *-- Bumper sticker

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> *&#8220;In thrust we trust!&#8221; *-- Bumper sticker


Sir Jee isn't that a male chauvenists statement On a more serious note, I think it is safe to assume that the days of f16 and PAF are over. I dont think Uncle Sam or PAF have enough left in the bag to trust each other to buy and fly them.
Araz


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## ababeel22

with mirages retiring( and the days of f16 and PAF are over) in ur opinion then with no Western fighter in its inventory paf will appear 1 dimensional which is not a good place to be in i think


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## Imran Khan

ababeel22 said:


> with mirages retiring( and the days of f16 and PAF are over) in ur opinion then with no Western fighter in its inventory paf will appear 1 dimensional which is not a good place to be in i think



how many western fighters are in russian or chinese inventory sir?

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## MastanKhan

Imran Khan said:


> how many western fighters are in russian or chinese inventory sir?




And they have a dillema at hand---what to do in case of actual combat---.


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## MastanKhan

muse said:


> It's like a cartoon story - US uses these F16 as bait for the last 30 years - Pakistanis continue to fall for this ploy - the heck with F16's move on already - is there any past that you guys don't want to be stuck in??



Sir,

It is an illussion that pakistani have been living under for the last 30 years----u s has never enticed pakistan to fall for the F16---it is the fools wearing the pakistani flags who have been kissing and licking the americans to get the F16's----.

How openly can a nation reject your offer of purchase----by putting sanctions on you---and you keep paying for those aircraft even after they sanctioned you----and you still kept on paying on it----and you still kept paying on it.

And now you come on this board and blame the flame for burning your wings---. I told you a couple of years ago---you are not the muse I knew from many a years ago----. 

With this kind of post---how do you deserve to be in the 'THINK TANK'-----.

Someone needs to say---to heck with pakistani mentality and pakistani attitude----it is due to total screw ups by you pakistanis ---most of your parents that the nation is so fcuked up----.

The only thing you fools had to do was to kill Osama Bin Laden and all the foreigner arabs and chechens and uighars and uzbeks maybe not even 5000 of them.

You MORONS----you fools----you have totally destroyed your motherlands----for not doing anything against these harbingers of death and destruction in time----.

You people were waving the flags of islamic brotherhood---'hamaray islami bhai hein'----. My pakistani family are soulless people---people with no identity---people with no character---people who kiss the hems of the saudi 'tobe' rather than the flag of their nation---people looking for saudi fanatic and egyptians criminals to give them guidance----.

You people gave refuge knowingly or unknowingly to the---the murderers---the rejects of their nations---. The lunatics had no respect for their motherlands---how could they give a sh-it about something they did not have any allegiance to---.

You people had a blank cashier's check----you torched it to light the firewood---and now once again----you are back at your old games---'crying murder'. Blaming everyone else for your 'DEMISE".

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> It is an illussion that pakistani have been living under for the last 30 years----u s has never enticed pakistan to fall for the F16---it is the fools wearing the pakistani flags who have been kissing and licking the americans to get the F16's----.
> 
> How openly can a nation reject your offer of purchase----by putting sanctions on you---and you keep paying for those aircraft even after they sanctioned you----and you still kept on paying on it----and you still kept paying on it.
> 
> And now you come on this board and blame the flame for burning your wings---. I told you a couple of years ago---you are not the muse I knew from many a years ago----.
> 
> *With this kind of post---how do you deserve to be in the 'THINK TANK'-----.*
> 
> Someone needs to say---to heck with pakistani mentality and pakistani attitude----it is due to total screw ups by you pakistanis ---most of your parents that the nation is so fcuked up----.
> 
> The only thing you fools had to do was to kill Osama Bin Laden and all the foreigner arabs and chechens and uighars and uzbeks maybe not even 5000 of them.
> 
> You MORONS----you fools----you have totally destroyed your motherlands----for not doing anything against these harbingers of death and destruction in time----.
> 
> You people were waving the flags of islamic brotherhood---'hamaray islami bhai hein'----. My pakistani family are soulless people---people with no identity---people with no character---people who kiss the hems of the saudi 'tobe' rather than the flag of their nation---people looking for saudi fanatic and egyptians criminals to give them guidance----.
> 
> You people gave refuge knowingly or unknowingly to the---the murderers---the rejects of their nations---. The lunatics had no respect for their motherlands---how could they give a sh-it about something they did not have any allegiance to---.
> 
> You people had a blank cashier's check----you torched it to light the firewood---and now once again----you are back at your old games---'crying murder'. Blaming everyone else for your 'DEMISE".



Because he does not think in Black and white.. its not a simpleton's situation where you killed all those men and it would all be hunky dory.. Pakistanis would sit back and the US would join us in singing "Kumbaya" and every expat Pakistani in the US would get hugs and kisses on the streets of the big apple.
The F-16's were our choice.. and the US was initially DENYING us them..
Whatever the leadership choice, these are part of our inventory..and our focus is on them..
not how some old hand who left his nation long ago judges us on them.
You people... lol..yeah like I had a choice tomorrow to walk up to the Presidency and tell the guy to go screw himself.

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## gambit

nuclearpak said:


> THis isn't really a PAF F-16 but releated to F-16's in general.
> 
> 1- Is this a bombing run, I doubt it is because there doesn't seem that a bomb is dropped, and then the kind way they expllode.
> 
> 2- Is there a real bomb that can do stuff like this?
> 
> 3- Do we have this kind of bomb?


Real bombs, meaning the kind use in real wars, very rarely have fires or as prominent flames unless they are specifically designed to produce fires. When you want to destroy or severely damage hardware, so degraded that the enemy either abandon it or would delay repairs, then concussive (shattering) force rather than fire is the way to go. Even if your target location have flammables such as POL stations or munitions, concussive force can disrupt their storage and render the area unsafe for long periods of time. Only when your intelligence about a particular target is sufficiently detailed as to the contents can you deliver specific munitions like napalm or cluster. Else general purpose concussive bombs will suffice. What you see is pure entertainment.

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## MastanKhan

Oscar said:


> Because he does not think in Black and white.. its not a simpleton's situation where you killed all those men and it would all be hunky dory.. Pakistanis would sit back and the US would join us in singing "Kumbaya" and every expat Pakistani in the US would get hugs and kisses on the streets of the big apple.
> The F-16's were our choice.. and the US was initially DENYING us them..
> Whatever the leadership choice, these are part of our inventory..and our focus is on them..
> not how some old hand who left his nation long ago judges us on them.
> You people... lol..yeah like I had a choice tomorrow to walk up to the Presidency and tell the guy to go screw himself.


 
Senor,

You still haven't learnt anything but for sarcasm----you fool---it is for the integrity of the nation---it is for the integrity of the religion---it is for keeping the christian armies from entering a muslim land and waging a 'holy' war---you fool it is for keeping the sovereignty of the nation intact---it for acting like a nation first and foremost----it is for keeping the chaos and destruction away from your neighbors house so that when the fire spreads----it does not burn your house down either.

It is for preventing the deaths of millions of muslims by the marauding bands of christian soldier who would murder and rape you children and women and then kill you as well---.

So you would rather destroy the motherland than see me getting hugs and kisses on the foreign streets---that is a pathetic anology---.

Where do you go to learn these things---who teaches you this kind of stuff---. 

All major problems have simple solutions to begin with-----now you would not know it if you had killed all those al qaeda criminals---when you had the chance---.

You are indeed a brilliant child of my motherland---what a dark future for my country of birth---it is like you saying---I did not remove this cancerous tumor in time because I did not know if it would stop the growth of cancer----.

The tragedy over here is that you people don't even feel and shame and embarrassment in writing this kind of stuff.

You don't have no control of the govt officials----but you as a group of young men, you can re-direct your focus and make it known amongst your peers to bring a change and change the way of thinking.

Stop this hateful act of cutting your nose to spite your face---.


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## Peaceful Civilian

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> *You don't have no control of the govt officials----but you as a group of young men, you can re-direct your focus and make it known amongst your peers to bring a change and change the way of thinking.*



Oh.. like you did at my age?
When it was much much easier?
Your points are like that of somebody at the twilight of their career that did not work out.
You think that nobody sees the things that you see..and nobody is trying to create that impetus for change.. and you are the only one with an answer...and if we dont listen to you..we are screwed.

Well here it is Monsieur.. It was* YOUR generation* that could have made the change, but you chose to **** it up.. not us.. You guys could have done all that you claim to talk about ..but you did not..and went off to make your own bucks in the land of the free..
Now its more harder to fix things.. and if we arent doing such a good job at it..its no thanks to you....
Trying to incite us by constant ridicule or sarcasm has little effect.. I dont give a rats arse to listen to some foul mouthed old coot who has nothing except insults and ridicule for me or my generation.. on any subject.. all the time.

You were around when they bought the F-16's.. were you sleeping or something?.._did you as a group of young men, *fail* can re-direct your focus and make it known amongst your peers to bring a change and change the way of thinking._

You want to help us change? force us to change? then entice us by good advice and sound logic...repeatedly insulting us on each and every other thread in the same pattern is not going to do diddly squat.

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## ababeel22

during the 2 wars fought btw iaf and paf instead of having a huge numerical disadvantage our af shocked iaf this was no doubt due to better skills of our pilots but again they mainly fought with American fighter jets while India had soviet jets ( i m just assuming as i dnt know for sure my apologies if i m wrong)


Imran Khan said:


> how many western fighters are in russian or chinese inventory sir?


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## alimobin memon

ababeel22 said:


> during the 2 wars fought btw iaf and paf instead of having a huge numerical disadvantage our af shocked iaf this was no doubt due to better skills of our pilots but again they mainly fought with American fighter jets while India had soviet jets ( i m just assuming as i dnt know for sure my apologies if i m wrong)


But now size gape is also decreased than before.


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## Beast

ababeel22 said:


> during the 2 wars fought btw iaf and paf instead of having a huge numerical disadvantage our af shocked iaf this was no doubt due to better skills of our pilots but again they mainly fought with American fighter jets while India had soviet jets ( i m just assuming as i dnt know for sure my apologies if i m wrong)



You are indeed wrong. IAF has the Mirage 2000 armed with Mica during Kargil War which forces PAF F-16 which were lack of any BVR mean to turn away everytime they encounter IAF Mirage 2000.


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## Storm Force

Is the F16 A USEFUL ASSET in the future even without USA on side.

I dont think any force can operate a fighter fleet if the ORIGINAL COUNTRY that supplied them is no longer on board and worse stil prehaps leaning to your potential advesary.

If pak usa relations continue to frefall then PAF have to order an alternative western jet if WESTERN technology is to remain in service post 2020... 

OR 

You rely completely on chinease technology which is getting FAR BETTER NOW

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## sancho

Beast said:


> You are indeed wrong. IAF has the Mirage 2000 armed with Mica during Kargil War which forces PAF F-16 which were lack of any BVR mean to turn away everytime they encounter IAF Mirage 2000.



M2Ks will get MICA only with the new upgrade, they only had Matra Super 530D missiles (hardly BVR capable), but the Russian fighters had different BVR missiles and that in high numbers and used at different types which gave a clear BVR advantage. PAF is closing this gap now with F16 MLU, B52s, JF 17 and J10 with SD 10.




Storm Force said:


> Is the F16 A USEFUL ASSET in the future even without USA on side.
> 
> I dont think any force can operate a fighter fleet if the ORIGINAL COUNTRY that supplied them is no longer on board and worse stil prehaps leaning to your potential advesary.
> 
> If pak usa relations continue to frefall then PAF have to order an alternative western jet if WESTERN technology is to remain in service post 2020...
> 
> OR
> 
> You rely completely on chinease technology which is getting FAR BETTER NOW




But changing the dependance from the US to China is not wise either. If a single quality issue comes up with SD 10 for example, all JF 17 and J10s would be useless in air combats, having the F16s and AIM 120 as an alternative then is a good point.
It doesn't matter if we talk about Pakistan or India (with the dependance on Russian arms and techs), as long as both countries can't develop all arms and techs indigenously, it is better to spread the risks and to have different alternatives!

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## alimobin memon

sancho said:


> M2Ks will get MICA only with the new upgrade, they only had Matra Super 530D missiles (hardly BVR capable), but the Russian fighters had different BVR missiles and that in high numbers and used at different types which gave a clear BVR advantage. PAF is closing this gap now with F16 MLU, B52s, JF 17 and J10 with SD 10.
> Jf17 radar supports the western weapon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But changing the dependance from the US to China is not wise either. If a single quality issue comes up with SD 10 for example, all JF 17 and J10s would be useless in air combats, having the F16s and AIM 120 as an alternative then is a good point.
> It doesn't matter if we talk about Pakistan or India (with the dependance on Russian arms and techs), as long as both countries can't develop all arms and techs indigenously, it is better to spread the risks and to have different alternatives!




Jf17 radar supports the western weapons.


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## razgriz19

alimobin memon said:


> Jf17 radar supports the western weapons.



only Aim-9 not AMRAAM.
only F-16s can fire AMRAAM.

on side not, F-16 maybe a vulnerable part of PAF, but its capability of carrying AMRAAM has definetly given a significant boost to PAF air defence command.


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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> only Aim-9 not AMRAAM.
> *only F-16s can fire AMRAAM.*
> on side not, F-16 maybe a vulnerable part of PAF, but its capability of carrying AMRAAM has definetly given a significant boost to PAF air defence command.



dont be so sure! PAF will never disclose which platform can fire which missile. yes basic info is given. it keeps the adversary thinking.

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## Najam Khan

sancho said:


> But changing the dependance from the US to China is not wise either. *If a single quality issue comes up with SD 10 for example, all JF 17 and J10s would be useless in air combats*, having the F16s and AIM 120 as an alternative then is a good point.
> It doesn't matter if we talk about Pakistan or India (with the dependance on Russian arms and techs), as long as both countries can't develop all arms and techs indigenously, it is better to spread the risks and to have different alternatives!




*"Dil ko khush karne ke liye Ghalib yeh khayaal achcha hai"*...As if we will only be testing SD-10s in combat, with no or little usage in peace time.

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## Edevelop

razgriz19 said:


> only Aim-9 not AMRAAM.
> only F-16s can fire AMRAAM.
> 
> on side not, F-16 maybe a vulnerable part of PAF, but its capability of carrying AMRAAM has definetly given a significant boost to PAF air defence command.



I'm not too sure on this. But what i would question is why we have purchased 500+ AMRAAMs for like only 60-70 F-16s. Does the stockpile mean anything?


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## fatman17

cb4 said:


> I'm not too sure on this. But what i would question is why we have purchased *500+ AMRAAMs *for like only 60-70 F-16s. Does the stockpile mean anything?



and 250 SD-10A's

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## ababeel22

numerically we are at a lot better position then bfore but the strength of quality is on their side. i wld go with 100 typhoons against iaf any day rather than going with 300 jfts. i personally think if mmrca deals goes through with upgrades of miraj su30 and mig29 than iaf wld be a lot better than even chinese af in terms of quality.


alimobin memon said:


> But now size gape is also decreased than before.



i dont think there was a full scale air war in 1999 i was talking about previous 2 wars


Beast said:


> You are indeed wrong. IAF has the Mirage 2000 armed with Mica during Kargil War which forces PAF F-16 which were lack of any BVR mean to turn away everytime they encounter IAF Mirage 2000.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> quality issue comes up with SD 10 for example[/B], all JF 17 and J10s would be useless in air combats, having the F16s and AIM 120 as an alternative then is a good point.



There are existing , testing and in service alternatives to the SD-10 for the PAF..
perhaps not as long ranged.. but BVR nonetheless.


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## sancho

fatman17 said:


> dont be so sure! PAF will never disclose which platform can fire which missile. yes basic info is given. it keeps the adversary thinking.



It has nothing to do with the platform, but with integration of the missiles to the radar, which is possible only if you have the source codes and the US won't provide them for the integration of AIM 120 into a Chinese radar isn't it? 



Najam Khan said:


> *"Dil ko khush karne ke liye Ghalib yeh khayaal achcha hai"*...As if we will only be testing SD-10s in combat, with no or little usage in peace time.



It was just an example that beeing dependent on a single supplier is not good either and why PAF must need alternatives too. The most likely scenario besides F16s and AIM 120 is, that PAF gets an alternative missile for it's Chinese origin fighters, be it indigenously developed or as planed earlier from a western country.


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## v9s

It seems PAF will be participating in Anatolian Eagle 12-2 

Scramble Messageboard &bull; Information

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## Abu Zolfiqar

if true, great news


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## danger007

ababeel22 said:


> numerically we are at a lot better position then bfore but the strength of quality is on their side. i wld go with 100 typhoons against iaf any day rather than going with 300 jfts. i personally think if mmrca deals goes through with upgrades of miraj su30 and mig29 than iaf wld be a lot better than even chinese af in terms of quality.
> 
> i dont think there was a full scale air war in 1999 i was talking about previous 2 wars




my mistake sir......


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## SQ8

danger007 said:


> can you explain me how you are numerically in better position....



reread with emphasis on English grammar and you will see that he was referring to being better as they were before.


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## Edevelop

danger007 said:


> can you explain me how you are numerically in better position....



At present, the IAF is operating 34 fighter jet squadrons, as compared to the 26 operated by the PAF. However, the IAF needs to operate 39.5 squadrons to maintain its superiority over the PAF , due to a wide variety of issues like geographical disadvantage. The squadron strength of the IAF will drop to just 31 

PAF Total = 463
IAF Total = 779

your fleet is almost 1.68 times more, problem with India is, it is also 4 times bigger than Pakistan area wise thus giving us the advantage.


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## danger007

cb4 said:


> At present, the IAF is operating 34 fighter jet squadrons, as compared to the 26 operated by the PAF. However, the IAF needs to operate 39.5 squadrons to maintain its superiority over the PAF , due to a wide variety of issues like geographical disadvantage. The squadron strength of the IAF will drop to just 31
> 
> your fleet is almost 1.68 times more, problem with India is, it is also 4 times bigger than Pakistan area wise thus giving us the advantage.



but qualitatively we are far better position now ,than past.....of-course squadrons is downed now..... 150 sukhoi's gives more security than 400 mig-21's.... there won't be any war in this decade.... neither pakistan is in that stage nor India...... so im not worried much more ...... but the gap between India and Pakistan will widen from 2018+ onwards...


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## Dazzler

danger007 said:


> but qualitatively we are far better position now ,than past.....of-course squadrons is downed now..... 150 sukhoi's gives more security than 400 mig-21's.... there won't be any war in this decade.... neither pakistan is in that stage nor India...... so im not worried much more ...... but the gap between India and Pakistan will widen from 2018+ onwards...



i have asked this before and got no answer and ask it again, prove your superior quality that you guys brag about all the time. A Quality which PAF lacks AT THE MOMENT, not five years later..

Thanks

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## Last Hope

nabil_05 said:


> i have asked this before and got no answer and ask it again, prove your superior quality that you guys brag about all the time. A Quality which PAF lacks AT THE MOMENT, not five years later..
> 
> Thanks



Nabil, I don't think the quality is being lacked. If a total full-scale war breaks out with 200 Indian jets entering the border at once, then yes. The AIM-120 (C5) is the best Aim-120 produced and *has superiority in the region.*


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## danger007

nabil_05 said:


> i have asked this before and got no answer and ask it again, prove your superior quality that you guys brag about all the time. A Quality which PAF lacks AT THE MOMENT, not five years later..
> 
> Thanks




I am not comparing PAF inventory quality vs Indian....... never i commented against quality of PAF jets.... please visit BD airforce threads...i supported JF-17 than su-30...... i am talking about quality of IAF jets in past and present...... we don't have air dominance fighter in past we got now ....SU-30mki going to be upgraded into super standard....

i clearly stated their, 150 su-30mki gives more strength to IAF than mig-21...... after 2018 onwards we are going to get MMRCA and FGFA....... so the squadrons will be raised again....... here im talking about quantity wise.....


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## BATMAN

Last Hope said:


> Nabil, I don't think the quality is being lacked. If a total full-scale war breaks out with 200 Indian jets entering the border at once, then yes. The AIM-120 (C5) is the best Aim-120 produced and *has superiority in the region.*



According to red flag exercise SU-30 time between flights was maximum in the all known world.

To put 200 plane in air India need 10-15 hrs. and turn around time of SU30 is even bigger.

I don't think Indians can keep 200 SU-30 in air at any given time.

To reach 200 SU30 benchmark Indians need another 2 years of steady production and if the fall into upgrades than may be by 2020 they can have 200 SU30 in operation. approx.

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## Darth Vader

danger007 said:


> I am not comparing PAF inventory quality vs Indian....... never i commented against quality of PAF jets.... please visit BD airforce threads...i supported JF-17 than su-30...... i am talking about quality of IAF jets in past and present...... we don't have air dominance fighter in past we got now ....SU-30mki going to be upgraded into super standard....
> 
> i clearly stated their, 150 su-30mki gives more strength to IAF than mig-21...... after 2018 onwards we are going to get MMRCA and FGFA....... so the squadrons will be raised again....... here im talking about quantity wise.....


 MY dear Pakistan is a small Country so We cant Compare with man to man wht Paf is trying their are getng qulty edge to counter wht iaf got yes india is geting some new aircrafts but u can also see the condtn of Pakistan we are stck in the war and terror and our encmy is going down but they paf is trying their best options wht they can get they are tryng to get it its a comprsn btwn allmst every aircraft pak and india got so u can check it http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/182172-comparison-among-f-22a-f-16-j-f-17-su-35-ef-2000-rafale-c.html


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## Last Hope

BATMAN said:


> According to red flag exercise SU-30 time between flights was maximum in the all known world.
> 
> To put 200 plane in air India need 10-15 hrs. and turn around time of SU30 is even bigger.
> 
> I don't think Indians can keep 200 SU-30 in air at any given time.
> 
> To reach 200 SU30 benchmark Indians need another 2 years of steady production and if the fall into upgrades than may be by 2020 they can have 200 SU30 in operation. approx.



I was just giving an example and you know it. Even if India sends sixteen Su-30s or any other jets at a time, a maximum of 6 F-16C/D would be scrambled against them with four Aim-120 each.

Indian BVR < Pakistan BVR so here is the leading edge we have. And yes, India will not send 200, or 16 or 8 Su-30s. They will not risk a war with Pakistan.


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## Dazzler

danger007 said:


> I am not comparing PAF inventory quality vs Indian....... never i commented against quality of PAF jets.... please visit BD airforce threads...i supported JF-17 than su-30...... i am talking about quality of IAF jets in past and present...... we don't have air dominance fighter in past we got now ....SU-30mki going to be upgraded into super standard....
> 
> i clearly stated their, 150 su-30mki gives more strength to IAF than mig-21...... after 2018 onwards we are going to get MMRCA and FGFA....... so the squadrons will be raised again....... here im talking about quantity wise.....



But you still have not answered my question friend 

Where is the qualitative advantage of current IAF fleet over PAF fleet?

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## MilSpec

Last Hope said:


> Nabil, I don't think the quality is being lacked. If a total full-scale war breaks out with 200 Indian jets entering the border at once, then yes. The AIM-120 (C5) is the best Aim-120 produced and *has superiority in the region.*



I hope you do realizw R77 AE-SD and MD, outranges Aim 120 by a significant margin



nabil_05 said:


> But you still have not answered my question friend
> 
> Where is the qualitative advantage of current IAF fleet over PAF fleet?



Qualitative advantage of IAF, might be, 4.5th generation aircrafts like Su 30 MKI, Mig 29 SMT, Mirage 2000 over the present numbers of F16's and FC1's that you have. This includes new generations of Radars and long range missiles and sensor suites.



BATMAN said:


> According to red flag exercise SU-30 time between flights was maximum in the all known world.
> 
> To put 200 plane in air India need 10-15 hrs. and turn around time of SU30 is even bigger.
> 
> I don't think Indians can keep 200 SU-30 in air at any given time.
> 
> To reach 200 SU30 benchmark Indians need another 2 years of steady production and if the fall into upgrades than may be by 2020 they can have 200 SU30 in operation. approx.




I have worked on SU 30MKI and can fully assure you that time required to put the birds in air is just pure exaggeration. That jack *** from USAF didn't know the difference between turmansky and AL31F.

2017 will see full strength of 272 birds, with rafale being produced in banglaore and nasik re-tooling for PAKFA


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## umair86

why there is always a war scenario in discussion why guys over this forum think something else like the sufferings of poor in both in Pakistan and India


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## Safriz

dont forget the poor man's airforce.
"cruise missiles".
Pakistan can launch a hoard of cruise missiles alongside fighter jets to compensate for a smaller airforce....


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## Fieldmarshal

Safriz said:


> dont forget the poor man's airforce.
> "cruise missiles".
> Pakistan can launch a hoard of cruise missiles alongside fighter jets to compensate for a smaller airforce....



bhai which poor man/country has cruise missile in their arsenal? even india is not self sufficient in the field of cruise missile.
cruise missiles are a very expensive piece of equipment which only a few select nations have the know how to manufacture.


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## ziaulislam

i think what he means is that india will be able to get to 42 sq around 2020-2025 while pakistan is expected to decrease its squadrons from 26 ..even so our squadron strength is low and a fact that our aircrfts are of light catergery.

if we do maintain our squadrons then i guess the gap would become 1:2 maximum. (400-450 ACs vs 800-900 ACs)
remeber previously india alwalys maintained a number atleast 2.5-3.0X more than pakistan e.g in 1965 and 1971.

but more will depend upon the scenario of engagement.


it seems we arent getting any more F-16, no way in this Obama regime, as whole Pakistan-USA relationship has become politicized and Pakistan has become a scape goat for US failure in Afghanistan. 

Taliban take over imminent due to poor policies of US and not engaging the Pushtoons in Afghanistan correctly,relying more on western alliance and Mr Karazi.

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## sancho

cb4 said:


> At present, the IAF is operating 34 fighter jet squadrons, as compared to the 26 operated by the PAF. However, the IAF needs to operate 39.5 squadrons to maintain its superiority over the PAF , due to a wide variety of issues like geographical disadvantage. The squadron strength of the IAF will drop to just 31
> 
> PAF Total = 463
> IAF Total = 779
> 
> your fleet is almost 1.68 times more, problem with India is, it is also 4 times bigger than Pakistan area wise thus giving us the advantage.



The problem with these squad number comparisons is, that it include all fighters, no matter what kind or how capable they are. For example, all the ground attack fighters included in this calculation won't add to air superiority right? Similarly, with AWACS and modern radars on both sides, we can take out all the old gen interceptors without any BVR capabilities too. What's left are the fighters that really would go against each other and here the squad numbers looks more favourable for IAF.
PAF is modernising in a better pace than IAF, but the latter has still some advantages and is already planing ahead.




nabil_05 said:


> i have asked this before and got no answer and ask it again, prove your superior quality that you guys brag about all the time. A Quality which PAF lacks AT THE MOMENT, not five years later..
> 
> Thanks



Depends on what you want to compare, Saab 2000 Erieye vs A50 Phalcon, F16 B52 vs MKI, C130 vs C130J-30..., in short, PAF today has similar capabilities as IAF, but in lower numbers and compared 1 on 1 with lower capability or quality too. Be it better mid air refueling, satcom, ESM capabilities, radars or EW systems, IRST or other avionics, better ARM missiles, special avionics and systems for the C130Js...

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## SQ8

sancho said:


> The problem with these squad number comparisons is, that it include all fighters, no matter what kind or how capable they are. For example, all the ground attack fighters included in this calculation won't add to air superiority right? Similarly, with AWACS and modern radars on both sides, we can take out all the old gen interceptors without any BVR capabilities too. What's left are the fighters that really would go against each other and here the squad numbers looks more favourable for IAF.
> PAF is modernising in a better pace than IAF, but the latter has still some advantages and is already planing ahead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on what you want to compare, Saab 2000 Erieye vs A50 Phalcon, F16 B52 vs MKI, C130 vs C130J-30..., in short, PAF today has similar capabilities as IAF, but in lower numbers and compared 1 on 1 with lower capability or quality too. Be it better mid air refueling, satcom, ESM capabilities, radars or EW systems, IRST or other avionics, better ARM missiles, special avionics and systems for the C130Js...



Eventually the question will come down to which force has higher SA, which reacts faster.. 
Which can get assets to bear on an area faster..
for eg.. if twenty IAF attackers end up having thirty aircraft coming up to meet them.. 
or fifty aircraft attacking find just four opposing them.
With each side possessing AEW assets.. being aware of each others movements will leave less options for force commanders to plan and co-ordinate strikes..

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## sancho

Oscar said:


> Eventually the question will come down to which force has higher SA, which reacts faster..



Exactly and here I see even advantages for PAF, since they have better AWACS coverage at the moment. Even if the numbers of JF 17 and BVR capable F16s are limited so far, they just need to focus on a good coordination between these assets and if I got it right, you are working in this regard too isn't it? A fast and capable link between AWACS Chinese and Western fighters will be an important key for PAFs defence capabilities.


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## IceCold

sandy_3126 said:


> I hope you do realizw R77 AE-SD and MD, outranges Aim 120 by a significant margin



More range does not automatically qualify for being better. AIMRAAM is a proven BVR missile with successful engagements. Can you say the same about R-77?


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## araz

sandy_3126 said:


> I hope you do realizw R77 AE-SD and MD, outranges Aim 120 by a significant margin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have worked on SU 30MKI and can fully assure you that time required to put the birds in air is just pure exaggeration. That jack *** from USAF didn't know the difference between turmansky and AL31F.
> 
> 2017 will see full strength of 272 birds, with rafale being produced in banglaore and nasik re-tooling for PAKFA



Interesting!! In what capacity have you worked on the SUs. Please elaborate if it is not a breach of protocol. wOULD LIKE TO LEARN MORE FROM YOU.
rEGARDS
araz


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## Safriz

Fieldmarshal said:


> bhai which poor man/country has cruise missile in their arsenal? even india is not self sufficient in the field of cruise missile.
> cruise missiles are a very expensive piece of equipment which only a few select nations have the know how to manufacture.


 
Bhai yeh ramz kii baatain haim.
Harr kisi ki samajh mein nahi aateen.


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## MilSpec

araz said:


> Interesting!! In what capacity have you worked on the SUs. Please elaborate if it is not a breach of protocol. wOULD LIKE TO LEARN MORE FROM YOU.
> rEGARDS
> araz



I cant go into details, but my field of expertise is Static structural Non-linear Analysis.

thanks

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## Safriz

sandy_3126 said:


> I cant go into details, but my field of expertise is Static structural Non-linear Analysis.
> 
> thanks


 
Thats good.
We the knowledge hungry PDF members will want to see more of your posts...


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## Dazzler

sandy_3126 said:


> I hope you do realizw R77 AE-SD and MD, outranges Aim 120 by a significant margin
> 
> 
> 
> Qualitative advantage of IAF, might be, 4.5th generation aircrafts like Su 30 MKI, Mig 29 SMT, Mirage 2000 over the present numbers of F16's and FC1's that you have. This includes new generations of Radars and long range missiles and sensor suites.



When there is a "might be" involved, it means there is no certainty, apart of SU-30 which enjoys more range and better radar, numbers are not in question, there is no edge that IAF has over PAF as of now, not talking about 2017-18-19****. There is no SMT serving in IAF at the moment, neither is there a 2000-5. This is what i mean, quality is identical in both AFs, till MMRCA and SMT, 2000-5 appear, or FC-20 in PAF, the situation will remain in the balance. AIM 120C5, used by PAF, does have a better range and accuracy over what version of R-77 is used by IAF

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## DESERT FIGHTER

sandy_3126 said:


> I cant go into details, but my field of expertise is Static structural Non-linear Analysis.
> 
> thanks



Though you post like a regular indian troll...lol


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## KRAIT

sandy_3126 said:


> I cant go into details, but my field of expertise is Static structural Non-linear Analysis.
> 
> thanks


Great man....Non-linear Analysis...someone with something common...


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## danger007

nabil_05 said:


> When there is a "might be" involved, it means there is no certainty,* apart of SU-30 which enjoys more range and better radar, numbers are not in question, there is no edge that IAF* has over PAF as of now, not talking about 2017-18-19****. There is no SMT serving in IAF at the moment, neither is there a 2000-5. This is what i mean, quality is identical in both AFs, till MMRCA and SMT, 2000-5 appear, or FC-20 in PAF, the situation will remain in the balance. AIM 120C5, used by PAF, does have a better range and accuracy over what version of R-77 is used by IAF



read your post again...........


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## MilSpec

nabil_05 said:


> When there is a "might be" involved, it means there is no certainty, apart of SU-30 which enjoys more range and better radar, numbers are not in question, there is no edge that IAF has over PAF as of now, not talking about 2017-18-19****. There is no SMT serving in IAF at the moment, neither is there a 2000-5. This is what i mean, quality is identical in both AFs, till MMRCA and SMT, 2000-5 appear, or FC-20 in PAF, the situation will remain in the balance. AIM 120C5, used by PAF, does have a better range and accuracy over what version of R-77 is used by IAF



There is some speculation that RVV-SD was already deployed in January of 2011, Thats all I can say.Please understand the Number of Sukoi 30MKI aircrafts in Indian Inventory is twice of that of f16's in PAF's inventory, also to add, mig29's and M2k's in its current configuration are equally matched to F16's and are completely BVR capable.



Pakistani Nationalist said:


> Though you post like a regular indian troll...lol



Nature your posts are very well known to most of us here, please move on.


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## Dazzler

sandy_3126 said:


> There is some speculation that RVV-SD was already deployed in January of 2011, Thats all I can say.Please understand the Number of Sukoi 30MKI aircrafts in Indian Inventory is twice of that of f16's in PAF's inventory, also to add, mig29's and M2k's in its current configuration are equally matched to F16's and are completely BVR capable.




I end the debate here since you again talk about "speculation" and numbers, numbers are not the decisive factor in any war, had that be the case, many powers with "numerous" superiority would have won wars but history suggests otherwise. Lets move on.



danger007 said:


> read your post again...........



After you disclose your technological superiority

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## sancho

nabil_05 said:


> This is what i mean, quality is identical in both



 You might want to check what the SMT upgrades includes and what not the Mig already has, because unlike PAFs F16s it is already BVR capable and has IRST. The SMT mainly adds A2G capabilities to make it multi role capable. Add the technological edge of MKIs with PESA radar, IRST, TVC and better avionics and you have more than 200 Russian fighters today that has capabilities that PAF lacks today. 
Btw, even the Mirage 2000 offers 2 x types of missiles for air combats today, although imo don't the Super 530 as a BVR missil. Adding AIM 120 to a few squads (since the MLU upgrade isn't finished either), doesn't make PAF technologically equal, it just catches up to a capability IAF has for more than a decade now and with the new upgrades and procurements, the technological edge or advantage, howevery you want to call it remains. IAF is loosing at the lower end, while it will remain superior in numbers and techs at the higher end, that's what many people don't see when they talk about falling squadron numbers too, because IAF might phase out single role Mig 21 and 27 now, but adds MKIs in numbers and modernising already capable platforms like Mig 29 and Mirage 2000. 
So just like Indians shouldn't underestimate PAF and their modern capabilities as an air force, you shouldn't underestimate IAFs technological advantages, based on falling squad numbers and the maximum range of a missile.

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## Dazzler

sancho said:


> You might want to check what the SMT upgrades includes and what not the Mig already has, because unlike PAFs F16s it is already BVR capable and has IRST. The SMT mainly adds A2G capabilities to make it multi role capable. Add the technological edge of MKIs with PESA radar, IRST, TVC and better avionics and you have more than 200 Russian fighters today that has capabilities that PAF lacks today.
> Btw, even the Mirage 2000 offers 2 x types of missiles for air combats today, although imo don't the Super 530 as a BVR missil. Adding AIM 120 to a few squads (since the MLU upgrade isn't finished either), doesn't make PAF technologically equal, it just catches up to a capability IAF has for more than a decade now and with the new upgrades and procurements, the technological edge or advantage, howevery you want to call it remains. IAF is loosing at the lower end, while it will remain superior in numbers and techs at the higher end, that's what many people don't see when they talk about falling squadron numbers too, because IAF might phase out single role Mig 21 and 27 now, but adds MKIs in numbers and modernising already capable platforms like Mig 29 and Mirage 2000.
> So just like Indians shouldn't underestimate PAF and their modern capabilities as an air force, you shouldn't underestimate IAFs technological advantages, based on falling squad numbers and the maximum range of a missile.



Underestimation is something you guys specialize at, not us. I only replied to the same rhetoric repeated by some members that IAF has technological superiority over PAF, which is no longer the case. Again you brought up SMT upgrade which IAF does not have as of now. My emphasis was only on technology in hand with both AFs, nothing else.

Regards

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## alimobin memon

sancho said:


> You might want to check what the SMT upgrades includes and what not the Mig already has, because unlike PAFs F16s it is already BVR capable and has IRST. The SMT mainly adds A2G capabilities to make it multi role capable. Add the technological edge of MKIs with PESA radar, IRST, TVC and better avionics and you have more than 200 Russian fighters today that has capabilities that PAF lacks today.
> Btw, even the Mirage 2000 offers 2 x types of missiles for air combats today, although imo don't the Super 530 as a BVR missil. Adding AIM 120 to a few squads (since the MLU upgrade isn't finished either), doesn't make PAF technologically equal, it just catches up to a capability IAF has for more than a decade now and with the new upgrades and procurements, the technological edge or advantage, howevery you want to call it remains. IAF is loosing at the lower end, while it will remain superior in numbers and techs at the higher end, that's what many people don't see when they talk about falling squadron numbers too, because IAF might phase out single role Mig 21 and 27 now, but adds MKIs in numbers and modernising already capable platforms like Mig 29 and Mirage 2000.
> So just like Indians shouldn't underestimate PAF and their modern capabilities as an air force, you shouldn't underestimate IAFs technological advantages, based on falling squad numbers and the maximum range of a missile.


HAHAHHA guys Zhuk ME radar has 120km against 5m^2 while jf17 block 2 has confirmed >=130 km vs 5m^2 lolx


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## umair86

keeping 200 MKIs operational at any given time is a tough task which IAF lacks as the quality of Russian machines is low and they require far more maintenance than there western counterparts.


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## Ammyy

umair86 said:


> keeping 200 MKIs operational at any given time is a tough task which IAF lacks as the quality of Russian machines is low and they require far more maintenance than there western counterparts.


 
You are mistaking with numbers 270 MKIs + 42 Super MKIs


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## MilSpec

nabil_05 said:


> I end the debate here since you again talk about "speculation" and numbers, numbers are not the decisive factor in any war, had that be the case, many powers with "numerous" superiority would have won wars but history suggests otherwise. Lets move on.




On a public forum I can only speculate!
By extending your logic, PAF is comparable to USAF(- stealth platforms)? although I did mention numerical superiority of like platforms, this superiority doesn't really pan out the way we usually think. In a limited engagement, there is a possibility where 6 PAF F16's ambush 4 MKI, on paper numbers of 272 won't do any good. Engagement is dynamic, better planning will ensure survivability.


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## Irfan Baloch

sandy_3126 said:


> On a public forum I can only speculate!



good call

make some assumptions but build up a logical case for them. provide whatever is available in public as backup and leve the rest to imagination, free will and choice of the reader to accept or reject it.
try to keep patriotism, political rivalry and bravado to a minimum (if possible) and be respectful

hahaha I am funny ait I?


in number games we are outmatched, so every strategy of ours is based on now that can be negated to bring us on par. but thats also based on assumptions (like in economics they start with, "every thing remaining the same") well in war, the whole concept is a fluid situation a good commander backed up with good gear (number+ tech), training of his men plus some luck prevails no matter how bad the odds are.

on paper I might dare to say that IAF might be at par with USAF , once it also gets the Rafales and PAK-FA. an oversimplified amateur assumption but hey its a public forum

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## DARKY

nabil_05 said:


> When there is a "might be" involved, it means there is no certainty, apart of SU-30 which enjoys more range and better radar, numbers are not in question, there is no edge that IAF has over PAF as of now, not talking about 2017-18-19****. There is no SMT serving in IAF at the moment, neither is there a 2000-5. This is what i mean, quality is identical in both AFs, till MMRCA and SMT, 2000-5 appear, or FC-20 in PAF, the situation will remain in the balance. AIM 120C5, used by PAF, does have a better range and accuracy over what version of R-77 is used by IAF



You Don't Realize that PAF hardly has anything BVR....Those 18+3/4 F-16s are perhaps the only planes which can shoot BVR in PAF as of NOW.

While IAF has over 150 Mig 21bisons which can do the same.

Forget about Su 30MKI... you don't have much to offer(18 block52 may be 3/4 upgraded Falcons... I don't know whats the status but I'll give it to you)... against IAF fleet of Mig 21bisons... eat that.

You are simply ranting that Aim 120C5 is better than R-77M where as IAF operates a wider array of BVRs which include Semi-Active, Active, aswell as Infra-red... and go by Russian doctrine of launch more than one type of BVR so that there is little chance left for any fighter.

And at last you have been seriously underestimating the experience IAF has with F-16block50/52.. thanks to the Airforces of Singapore, US, and Israel.... Beside the EW capabilities which come handy in BVR engagement situation... you might remember Cop-Indias when the Mig21bison would use its small RCS and Elta Jammers to score kills on the Eagle of USAF.

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## SQ8

DARKY said:


> You Don't Realize that PAF hardly has anything BVR....Those 18+3/4* F-16s are perhaps the only planes which can shoot BVR in PAF as of NOW.*
> 
> While IAF has over 150 Mig 21bisons which can do the same.
> 
> Forget about Su 30MKI... you don't have much to offer(18 block52 may be 3/4 upgraded Falcons... I don't know whats the status but I'll give it to you)... against IAF fleet of Mig 21bisons... eat that.
> 
> You are simply ranting that Aim 120C5 is better than R-77M where as IAF operates a wider array of BVRs which include Semi-Active, Active, aswell as Infra-red... and go by Russian doctrine of launch more than one type of BVR so that there is little chance left for any fighter.
> 
> And at last you have been seriously underestimating the experience IAF has with F-16block50/52.. thanks to the Airforces of Singapore, US, and Israel.... Beside the EW capabilities which come handy in BVR engagement situation... you might remember Cop-Indias when the Mig21bison would use its small RCS and Elta Jammers to score kills on the Eagle of USAF.



Who is talking about as of now..??


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## abdulbarijan

DARKY said:


> You Don't Realize that PAF hardly has anything BVR....Those 18+3/4 F-16s are perhaps the only planes which can shoot BVR in PAF as of NOW.
> 
> While IAF has over 150 Mig 21bisons which can do the same.
> 
> Forget about Su 30MKI... you don't have much to offer(18 block52 may be 3/4 upgraded Falcons... I don't know whats the status but I'll give it to you)... against IAF fleet of Mig 21bisons... eat that.
> 
> You are simply ranting that Aim 120C5 is better than R-77M where as IAF operates a wider array of BVRs which include Semi-Active, Active, aswell as Infra-red... and go by Russian doctrine of launch more than one type of BVR so that there is little chance left for any fighter.
> 
> And at last you have been seriously underestimating the experience IAF has with F-16block50/52.. thanks to the Airforces of Singapore, US, and Israel.... Beside the EW capabilities which come handy in BVR engagement situation... you might remember Cop-Indias when the Mig21bison would use its small RCS and Elta Jammers to score kills on the Eagle of USAF.




*Tell all this to the people that were boosting about surgical strikes .... but as always ... all talk and no action from such a superior airforce ... *

Not to mention the rules of engagements in Cope India's ... 4 vs 12 (no technological edge for USAF) 
With them restricted to 18-20 NMI or was it KM for engagements while IAF was free to use R-27's and even if they were getting on the same range USAF had to illuminate targets till the end while IAF could simply fire and forget....

and all that and IAF is boosting about how it won against the eagle ... which BTW was done by PAF back in the 70's with 2nd generation Mirage III's and F-6's .... 

As for Mig-21 Bison and small RCS and jammer... dont u think JF-17 will have the same effect if not multiple times more... consider the fact that its RCS is the lowest in PAF's inventory (small size, RAM coating in certain areas, DSI's ) combine that with KG-300's...


As far as ur experience with the Block 52's goes PAF has experience training against the flankers as well (although not MKI) but still....
As for BVR's take a look at SD-10's and Aim-120 C5 combo for PAF...and certain other BVR's that are not even declared BVR's... just a hint.. LOL!

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## Donatello

DARKY said:


> You Don't Realize that PAF hardly has anything BVR....Those 18+3/4 F-16s are perhaps the only planes which can shoot BVR in PAF as of NOW.
> 
> While IAF has over 150 Mig 21bisons which can do the same.
> 
> Forget about Su 30MKI... you don't have much to offer(18 block52 may be 3/4 upgraded Falcons... I don't know whats the status but I'll give it to you)... against IAF fleet of Mig 21bisons... eat that.
> 
> You are simply ranting that Aim 120C5 is better than R-77M where as IAF operates a wider array of BVRs which include Semi-Active, Active, aswell as Infra-red... and go by Russian doctrine of launch more than one type of BVR so that there is little chance left for any fighter.
> 
> And at last you have been seriously underestimating the experience IAF has with F-16block50/52.. thanks to the Airforces of Singapore, US, and Israel.... Beside the EW capabilities which come handy in BVR engagement situation... you might remember Cop-Indias when the Mig21bison would use its small RCS and Elta Jammers to score kills on the Eagle of USAF.



During the recent High-Mark exercises, it was proven that F-7PGs can use BVRs.

You can check that thread before ranting here......


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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> During the recent High-Mark exercises, it was proven that F-7PGs can use BVRs.
> 
> You can check that thread before ranting here......



He will need proofed links, preferably from wikipedia aur AusAirpower.

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## SBD-3

Irfan Baloch said:


> good call
> 
> make some assumptions but build up a logical case for them. provide whatever is available in public as backup and leve the rest to imagination, free will and choice of the reader to accept or reject it.
> try to keep patriotism, political rivalry and bravado to a minimum (if possible) and be respectful
> 
> hahaha I am funny ait I?
> 
> 
> in number games we are outmatched, so every strategy of ours is based on now that can be negated to bring us on par. but thats also based on assumptions (like in economics they start with, "every thing remaining the same") well in war, the whole concept is a fluid situation a good commander backed up with good gear (number+ tech), training of his men plus some luck prevails no matter how bad the odds are.
> 
> on paper I might dare to say that IAF might be at par with USAF , once it also gets the Rafales and PAK-FA. an oversimplified amateur assumption but hey its a public forum


Actually I find it quite funny, Whenever we hear Indian Top Air Brass, they seem to stress more on projecting numerical superiority than anything else (as if they find refuge in having large ratios).



Oscar said:


> He will need proofed links, preferably from wikipedia aur AusAirpower.


lol........or even from a garbage can like ToI,IBN blah blah blah if it gives them mental pleasure

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## danger007

hasnain0099 said:


> Actually I find it quite funny, Whenever we hear Indian Top Air Brass, they seem to stress more on projecting numerical superiority than anything else (as if they find refuge in having large ratios).



Think whatever you want........... my dear member....... the technical advantage whatever India has/have you will try to downplay it ...... you just wanna show PAF in advantage position..... anyways there will no one on one fight incase of war....... whatever we discussed may completely different in WAR THEATER....... Yes I do agree that F-16 block 52 with AIM120 is good combination..... in the same league of M2k which is going to upgraded into M2K5 and mig-29(upg).....


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## sancho

nabil_05 said:


> Underestimation is something you guys specialize at, not us. I only replied to the same rhetoric repeated by some members that IAF has technological superiority over PAF, which is no longer the case. Again you brought up SMT upgrade which IAF does not have as of now. My emphasis was only on technology in hand with both AFs, nothing else.
> 
> Regards



 Just like the same old denial mode from you, btw I clearly stated capabilities of the current Mig 29s, not the upgraded but you ignored the facts that I stated in the earlier post too. 




Oscar said:


> Who is talking about as of now..??





nabil_05 said:


> there is no edge that IAF has over PAF *as of now*, not talking about 2017-18-19****.

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## DARKY

Oscar said:


> Who is talking about as of now..??





nabil_05 said:


> When there is a "*might be*" involved, it means there is no certainty, apart of SU-30 which enjoys more range and better radar, numbers are not in question, there is no edge that IAF has over PAF *as of now*, not talking about 2017-18-19****. There is no SMT serving in IAF at the moment, neither is there a 2000-5. This is what i mean, quality is identical in both AFs, till MMRCA and SMT, 2000-5 appear, or FC-20 in PAF, the situation will remain in the balance. AIM 120C5, used by PAF, does have a better range and accuracy over what version of R-77 is used by IAF



Now Did you see Who is talking as of Now.


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## DARKY

abdulbarijan said:


> *Tell all this to the people that were boosting about surgical strikes .... but as always ... all talk and no action from such a superior airforce ... *
> 
> Not to mention the rules of engagements in Cope India's ... 4 vs 12 (*no technological edge for USAF*)
> With them restricted to 18-20 NMI or was it KM for engagements while IAF was free to use R-27's and even if they were getting on the same range USAF had to illuminate targets till the end while IAF could simply fire and forget....
> 
> and all that and IAF is boosting about how it won against the eagle ... which BTW was done by PAF back in the 70's with 2nd generation Mirage III's and F-6's ....
> 
> As for Mig-21 Bison and small RCS and jammer... dont u think JF-17 will have the same effect if not multiple times more... consider the fact that its RCS is the lowest in PAF's inventory (small size, RAM coating in certain areas, DSI's ) combine that with KG-300's...
> 
> 
> As far as ur experience with the Block 52's goes PAF has experience training against the flankers as well (although not MKI) but still....
> As for BVR's take a look at SD-10's and Aim-120 C5 combo for PAF...and certain other BVR's that are not even declared BVR's... just a hint.. LOL!



I didn't intend to give you sleepless Nights.

You are saying No Technological edge for USAF... read again..U--S--A--F... and that was 2004.

Eagle in 70s and Eagle in 2004 is two different things.

No I don't think JF-17 can have same effect.

Su30mk of China is for strike roles.... Su30MKI other than looks is a totally different planes so those PAF pilot has as much experience as you do by looking MKI in photos or videos.

BVR... when talked of should be considered as missiles which can take out fighters beyond 50km.... If you have such missiles other than Aim120C5 then good for you... IAF has such missiles which be fired 130km away from its target.



Donatello said:


> During the recent High-Mark exercises, it was proven that F-7PGs can use BVRs.
> 
> You can check that thread before ranting here......



Yeah and what is that BVR.. wait you can't say since its classified....


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## Imran Khan

thread again messed up . please keep it just on damn PAF F-16


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## Dazzler

sancho said:


> Just like the same old denial mode from you, btw I clearly stated capabilities of the current Mig 29s, not the upgraded but you ignored the facts that I stated in the earlier post too.



It is called a reality check buddy, most of Indian friends are thinking of the PAF on par with what it was during 90s, guess what, its time to wake up and smell the coffee which tastes the same on both sides of the border.

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## abdulbarijan

DARKY said:


> I didn't intend to give you sleepless Nights.
> 
> You are saying No Technological edge for USAF... read again..U--S--A--F... and that was 2004.


*Includes AESA radars with F-15's which they didn't bring, no F& F missiles being outnumbered 4 to1* ... and the one who backed down is the one talking about sleepless nights...way to go..* if IAF is so damn great where was all this greatness when it had the opportunity against a poor non BVR force (or was it at that time?? again... )
*


> Eagle in 70s and Eagle in 2004 is two different things.



*Mirage III and F-6 vs F-15 ... (2nd generation radar less jets vs latest 4th gen of the time)* 



> No I don't think JF-17 can have same effect.


*Because its Pakistani ofcourse... *



> Su30mk of China is for strike roles.... Su30MKI other than looks is a totally different planes so those PAF pilot has as much experience as you do by looking MKI in photos or videos.
> BVR... when talked of should be considered as missiles which can take out fighters beyond 50km.... If you have such missiles other than Aim120C5 then good for you... IAF has such missiles which be fired 130km away from its target.



*SD-10A/B is around 100 Km...*





> Yeah and what is that BVR.. wait you can't say since its classified....



U bet...LOL!

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## Last Hope

AbdulBarijan and Nabil.

Please stop these 'debates' or 'arguments'. These are like going in a circle and I considered this to be the cleanest thread.
Let's stick to our current mission of thread which is future and current F-16 development. Ignore and do not quote.

Thank you and please.

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## DARKY

abdulbarijan said:


> *Includes AESA radars with F-15's which they didn't bring, no F& F missiles being outnumbered 4 to1* ... and the one who backed down is the one talking about sleepless nights...way to go..* if IAF is so damn great where was all this greatness when it had the opportunity against a poor non BVR force (or was it at that time?? again... )
> *



USAF F-15 Doesn't feature AESA.. Infact it has the same Radar... they had their missile to score kills.
Yeah being outnumbered against Mig 21 so ?
It had the opportunity but the political situation said otherwise... don't worry they won't keep you waiting for long.



abdulbarijan said:


> *Mirage III and F-6 vs F-15 ... (2nd generation radar less jets vs latest 4th gen of the time)*


What difference does it make if you can see your opponent... we are talking of BVR engagements.



abdulbarijan said:


> Because its Pakistani ofcourse... [/B]



That's your stupid logic/assumption not mine.



abdulbarijan said:


> SD-10A/B is around 100 Km...[/B]



That's your primary BVR along with Aim120c5.. I was talking of BVR other than primary AMRAAMs.



abdulbarijan said:


> Yeah In fact I do.


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## MilSpec

hasnain0099 said:


> Actually I find it quite funny, Whenever we hear Indian Top Air Brass, they seem to stress more on projecting numerical superiority than anything else (as if they find refuge in having large ratios).



Numbers on paper or inventory sitting in hangars, wont do much to a IAF formation which may be outnumbered by a PAF formation in limited engagement. In today's day and age it's all about anticipating the opponents move and providing optimal resources. 700 IAF a/c wont fight 400 paf a/c to death.

There is one odd thing I find among few members who claim R77-AE to be inferior to Aim 120 and then in the same breath claim PL12/Sd10 to be comparable to aim 120 although it's based on R77 Rvv-Ae to begin with. funny


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## SQ8

DARKY said:


> USAF F-15 *Doesn't feature AESA*.. Infact it has the same Radar... they had their missile to score kills.
> Yeah being outnumbered against Mig 21 so ?.



the USAF F-15's were equipped with the APG-63 V(3) AESA radar..
Raytheon Company: AN/APG-63(V)3 AESA Radar

But were not allowed to use its full capabilities as part of the RoE's set for the exercises in which is was very evident that the USAF aircraft were to mimic the then PAF.

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## abdulbarijan

DARKY said:


> USAF F-15 Doesn't feature AESA.. Infact it has the same Radar... they had their missile to score kills.
> Yeah being outnumbered against Mig 21 so ?
> It had the opportunity but the political situation said otherwise... don't worry they won't keep you waiting for long.



*Dont forget Mirage 2000 and SU-30 MK and Mig-29's* that also participated ur acting as if Mig-21 was the only participant...*Be our guest if you have the nerves* .... or will you throw in the towel like always in this past decade.. 

*F-15 does feature AESA, APG-63 V(2) to be exact..*




> What difference does it make if you can see your opponent... we are talking of BVR engagements.



LOL! then why dont we go and and take *Bison vs F-22 in a WVR *... what difference does it make if u can see ur opponent right?? *regardless of the fact that ur opponent is considered amongst the best in close ranges too ( just like the F-15 was and still is)
*



> That's your stupid logic/assumption not mine.



great so if thats my own assumption *why dont you put ur reasoning as to why JFT wont have the same effect if not multiple times more...
*




> That's your primary BVR along with Aim120c5.. I was talking of BVR other than primary AMRAAMs.





> when talked of should be considered as missiles which can take out fighters beyond 50km.... *If you have such missiles other than Aim120C5 then good for you*... *IAF has such missiles which be fired 130km away from its target.
> *




Now I dont think anyone would interpret that as *" non primary BVRAAM's"* in ur response, infact the *very missile and range ur boosting about here is one of the primary BVR weapons of India the R-27 which it uses along with the R-77.*


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## umair86

DRDO said:


> You are mistaking with numbers 270 MKIs + 42 Super MKIs



Saying 200 operational at the moment is optimistic as they are around say 140 in services while others on order. If there will be over 300 in service than even more issue to keep such an enormous maintenance guzzler operational


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## IceCold

nabil_05 said:


> It is called a reality check buddy, most of Indian friends are thinking of the PAF on par with what it was during 90s, guess what, its time to wake up and smell the coffee which tastes the same on both sides of the border.



If Indians like to continue to underestimate us, its actually a good thing why are we complaining? i hope their top brass shares the same view too.

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## DARKY

abdulbarijan said:


> *Dont forget Mirage 2000 and SU-30 MK and Mig-29's* that also participated ur acting as if Mig-21 was the only participant...*Be our guest if you have the nerves* .... or will you throw in the towel like always in this past decade..
> 
> *F-15 does feature AESA, APG-63 V(2) to be exact..*



I said USAF F-15 don't feature AESA... there are only 18 such F-15Cs which have been more of a TD for the F-15 supplied to South Korea and Singapore which does feature AESA.

What has those Mig 27/Su 30 got to do with F-15 struggling to pick the Mig 21 on its radar... and getting killed in the process.

Its world known who threw the largest towel in the Human History with 90+thousands submitting.

As I said... the Political situation suggested other wise... I can assure you that you'll get what what you have so long wanted.



abdulbarijan said:


> LOL! then why dont we go and and take *Bison vs F-22 in a WVR *... what difference does it make if u can see ur opponent right?? *regardless of the fact that ur opponent is considered amongst the best in close ranges too ( just like the F-15 was and still is)
> *



BVR... Beyond Visual Range combat... is what we are talking of.
I know PAF pilots are trained by Aliens and can out run the best maneuverable planes...pull 15Gs.. they are simple out of the world and born with the ability... natural.



abdulbarijan said:


> great so if thats my own assumption *why dont you put ur reasoning as to why JFT wont have the same effect if not multiple times more...
> *



Its of no use since you are blinded... and pre-occupied to think rationally.
Its not what JF-17 would do If... its what it can do.



abdulbarijan said:


> Now I dont think anyone would interpret that as *" non primary BVRAAM's"* in ur response, infact the *very missile and range ur boosting about here is one of the primary BVR weapons of India the R-27 which it uses along with the R-77.*



R-77M is the Primary BVR in IAF.. as is the Aim120C5 in PAF... while PAF adds SD-10 with similar capabilities.. IAF adds Meteor, Derby, Mica, and Already operates R-27 both ER and ET which adds another Dimension to its BVR capabilities... I was not asking what IAF has I was asking what PAF has other than Aim 120C5 or SD-10.. which can be put into BVR category.

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## fatman17

* I was not asking what IAF has I was asking what PAF has other than Aim 120C5 or SD-10.. which can be put into BVR category*.

these 2 should suffice. a BVR is a BVR is a BVR whatever the name.

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## fatman17

*PL-10 - is the next generation IR-guided missile in the same class as AIM-9X, ASRAAM, A-Darter and IRIS-T.*

coming soon at a theatre near you.

*A new long-range active radar homing AAM has been under development. Based on some of the PL-12 technology, PL-21 appears similar to British Meteor*

there is more in the pipeline, so fret not!

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## DARKY

fatman17 said:


> * I was not asking what IAF has I was asking what PAF has other than Aim 120C5 or SD-10.. which can be put into BVR category*.
> 
> these 2 should suffice. a BVR is a BVR is a BVR whatever the name.



The criteria given for a BVR is that it can engage targets beyond 37km... although at 37-50 hardly anything would survive If the opponent has an wide array of MR-LR BVR being fielded along with far superior EW capabilities.



fatman17 said:


> *PL-10 - is the next generation IR-guided missile in the same class as AIM-9X, ASRAAM, A-Darter and IRIS-T.*
> 
> coming soon at a theatre near you.
> 
> *A new long-range active radar homing AAM has been under development. Based on some of the PL-12 technology, PL-21 appears similar to British Meteor*
> 
> there is more in the pipeline, so fret not!



Any Chinese missile does not automatically classifies to be used on a Pakistani fighter plane.
You being a think thank must realize that integrating a new BVR to a platform is not a piece of cake....you can make an estimation of the fact... If you see the time taken to equip the JF-17 with its 1st BVR... already 2 squadron is Inducted since 2008(already 4 years).. not a single plane having BVR missiles nor do they have weapon targeting pods.


----------



## Windjammer

DARKY said:


> Any Chinese missile does not automatically classifies to be used on a Pakistani fighter plane.
> You being a think thank must realize that integrating a new BVR to a platform is not a piece of cake....you can make an estimation of the fact... If you see the time taken to equip the JF-17 with its 1st BVR... already 2 squadron is Inducted since 2008(already 4 years).. not a single plane having BVR missiles nor do they have weapon targeting pods.



Not having and not seen or two different kettle of Fish, how can you comment on some products/capabilities that you are obviously oblivious to........ you are even in denial of F-7PG's BVR capability...... recall that, they were inducted in middle of crisis between the two countries, not merely to shoot off PL-8s.

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## sancho

nabil_05 said:


> It is called a reality check buddy, most of Indian friends are thinking of the PAF on par with what it was during 90s, guess what, its time to wake up and smell the coffee which tastes the same *on both sides of the border*.



*Some* Indians do it, just like there are *some* Pakistanis that thinks only because PAF added a capability that IAF had for a decade, PAF is on par as now. The reality is different and to understand that, you have to look at the facts on both sides and that unbiased! You should try it

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## alimobin memon

Windjammer said:


> Not having and not seen or two different kettle of Fish, how can you comment on some products/capabilities that you are obviously oblivious to........ you are even in denial of F-7PG's BVR capability...... recall that, they were inducted in middle of crisis between the two countries, not merely to shoot off PL-8s.



Our Mirages are BVR too , F7pg have pulse doppler of 4th generation and early 4th generation avionics suite that is it is also known as mini f16. 
I dont know Indians are always so sure about what they are writing , I think our Air marshal share secrets with them.


----------



## abdulbarijan

DARKY said:


> I said USAF F-15 don't feature AESA... there are only 18 such F-15Cs which have been more of a TD for the F-15 supplied to South Korea and Singapore which does feature AESA.
> 
> What has those Mig 27/Su 30 got to do with F-15 struggling to pick the Mig 21 on its radar... and getting killed in the process.
> 
> Its world known who threw the largest towel in the Human History with 90+thousands submitting.
> 
> As I said... the Political situation suggested other wise... I can assure you that you'll get what what you have so long wanted.



Let me tell u slowly 
*4 VS 12 ( 1 vs 3) *

IAF wasn't just using Mig-21's.. it had *SU-30 MK and Mig-27/29 and M2k *along with it

U used F& F missiles and *barred USAF to a range of 20-25 KM */ NMI (Im not sure about the unit though) 

Then USAF *wasn't allowed to use F & F* 
*So tell me is that an even playing field??? *


And as far as 90,000 goes.. when u have back stabbers doing *Larkana pacts behind closed doors.*. when u *target a development to one part of a region* and when u turn a *blind eye to whats happening in ur areas mukti bahn*i etc... that is what happens.... 

Thank u India for giving us this lesson... 

*And we learned it good didn't we... (Hint : soviet Union)*






> BVR... Beyond Visual Range combat... is what we are talking of.
> I know PAF pilots are trained by Aliens and can out run the best maneuverable planes...pull 15Gs.. they are simple out of the world and born with the ability... natural.



Yeah yeah... atleast we can hold our own unlike the ones that say* we'll do surgical strikes and have second thoughts of what the hell they just said.. LOL!..*



> Its of no use since you are blinded... and pre-occupied to think rationally.
> Its not what JF-17 would do If... its what it can do.



Im blinded?? says the guy that thinks that PAF has only 18 BVR platforms...





> R-77M is the Primary BVR in IAF.. as is the Aim120C5 in PAF... while PAF adds SD-10 with similar capabilities.. IAF adds Meteor, Derby, Mica, and Already operates R-27 both ER and ET which adds another Dimension to its BVR capabilities... I was not asking what IAF has I was asking what PAF has other than Aim 120C5 or SD-10.. which can be put into BVR category.



SD-10 A/ B .. along with Aim-120 C5's .. and *just cuz ur adding new ones doesn't mean we cant...do the same*

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## ziaulislam

newer news reports show that govt is opening routes, if so..it should also try to bargain some EDA F-16s...
do we have any futures from the 14 we paid for?


----------



## DARKY

abdulbarijan said:


> Let me tell u slowly
> *4 VS 12 ( 1 vs 3) *
> 
> IAF wasn't just using Mig-21's.. it had *SU-30 MK and Mig-27/29 and M2k *along with it
> 
> U used F& F missiles and *barred USAF to a range of 20-25 KM */ NMI (Im not sure about the unit though)
> 
> Then USAF *wasn't allowed to use F & F*
> *So tell me is that an even playing field??? *
> 
> 
> And as far as 90,000 goes.. when u have back stabbers doing *Larkana pacts behind closed doors.*. when u *target a development to one part of a region* and when u turn a *blind eye to whats happening in ur areas mukti bahn*i etc... that is what happens....
> 
> Thank u India for giving us this lesson...
> 
> *And we learned it good didn't we... (Hint : soviet Union)*




Who said you that the area of operation for USAF was limited ?
There were different roles followed with parties participating as aggressor defenders as well one to one.
The 25 NM you are talking about might have been F-15Cs playing the role of defenders.
Missile or No missile the fact is that USAF F-15C could not pick them on their radars.. where would you fire the missile at when you don't know about the target ?.. by time they got the idea and figured out the position of mig 21 they were shot down. 

Well words like Back stabber/tricked are not used by sane and mature people.. I should have realized that earlier.. you shot better do other things than posting on serious topics.



abdulbarijan said:


> Yeah yeah... atleast we can hold our own unlike the ones that say* we'll do surgical strikes and have second thoughts of what the hell they just said.. LOL!..*



Its no one but you who is saying that.. and this is what we call paronia.



abdulbarijan said:


> Im blinded?? says the guy that thinks that PAF has only 18 BVR platforms...



Count me those other than 18 BVR platforms in PAF.




abdulbarijan said:


> SD-10 A/ B .. along with Aim-120 C5's .. and *just cuz ur adding new ones doesn't mean we cant...do the same*



Yeah but from where China ?
Since you can't make one..


----------



## SQ8

DARKY said:


> Who said you that the area of operation for USAF was limited ?
> There were different roles followed with parties participating as aggressor defenders as well one to one.
> The 25 NM you are talking about might have been F-15Cs playing the role of defenders.
> Missile or No missile the fact is that USAF F-15C could not pick them on their radars.. where would you fire the missile at when you don't know about the target ?.. by time they got the idea and figured out the position of mig 21 they were shot down.
> 
> Well words like Back stabber/tricked are not used by sane and mature people.. I should have realized that earlier.. you shot better do other things than posting on serious topics.
> 
> 
> 
> Its no one but you who is saying that.. and this is what we call paronia.
> 
> 
> 
> Count me those other than 18 BVR platforms in PAF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah but from where China ?
> *Since you can't make one*..



So how long were you employed at AWC to know that?


----------



## abdulbarijan

DARKY said:


> Who said you that the area of operation for USAF was limited ?
> There were different roles followed with parties participating as aggressor defenders as well one to one.
> The 25 NM you are talking about might have been F-15Cs playing the role of defenders.
> Missile or No missile the fact is that USAF F-15C could not pick them on their radars.. where would you fire the missile at when you don't know about the target ?.. by time they got the idea and figured out the position of mig 21 they were shot down.
> 
> Well words like Back stabber/tricked are not used by sane and mature people.. I should have realized that earlier.. you shot better do other things than posting on serious topics.



Hold ur horses dude, this claim came from *Col Terrence Fornof's utube video, now if that is what u take it as the truth , *

-do u also take the fact that he mentioned about the same "rules" for USAF in Cope India's as true too??

-Do u also take the claim of SU-30 MKI (yes the God's gift to aviation) got its arse whooped by the USAF.. in red flag 08.. do u take that as true as well.... or are u having second thoughts like ur AF.. LOL!

-Finally can u prove that while Mig-21's wern't "detected" they were the one taking the shots at the F-15 C's?? 



> Its no one but you who is saying that.. and this is what we call paronia.



Oh yes all the threats on indian TV's and IAF bragging about being ready and just waiting for green signals... no one said that did they... or is it more like ud wish this episode never happened....so that u wouldn't have to come here with excuses of political reasons... and all just cuz the IAF wanted to calm a little after PAF vowed a response....
Lemme refresh ur memory a little..
PAF vs IAF: Indian media - YouTube

And just like u, ur media forgets some thingies which PAF has eg in this video u have F-16 being totally forgotten...and ur sitting there claiming that PAF only has 18 BVR platforms...



> Count me those other than 18 BVR platforms in PAF.



-F-7 PG's
-Mirage with Rose upgrades
-40 odd JF-17's with SD-10's-
- 2-3 MLU upgraded aircrafts received or was it more... 







> Yeah but from where China ?
> Since you can't make one..



U know dear *we totally accept that... unlike certain some one that is stuck on a certain project for 30 odd years having radar from Israel, weapons from Russia and Israel, engine from USA , MFD's etc from France, laser pods from Israel and calling it 
*
*India's homemade .....*



danger007 said:


> Enemy won't wait for us until we made indigenous weapons.... already we are faced such situations recently in Kargil..... so don't lead us into off topic.



Ur friend was the one who started all this conversation stating PAF only had 18 BVR platforms and then he was the one talking about indigenous as well...

I simply replied ...

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## IceCold

abdulbarijan said:


> U know dear *we totally accept that... unlike certain some one that is stuck on a certain project for 30 odd years having radar from Israel, weapons from Russia and Israel, engine from USA , MFD's etc from France, laser pods from Israel and calling it
> *
> *India's homemade .....*



You know i wanted to say that but refrained because it would have hurt certain egos here and moreover derail the thread further then it already have.


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## danger007

abdulbarijan said:


> Hold ur horses dude, this claim came from *Col Terrence Fornof's utube video, now if that is what u take it as the truth , *
> 
> -do u also take the fact that he mentioned about the same "rules" for USAF in Cope India's as true too??
> 
> -Do u also take the claim of SU-30 MKI (yes the God's gift to aviation) got its arse whooped by the USAF.. in red flag 08.. do u take that as true as well.... or are u having second thoughts like ur AF.. LOL!
> 
> -Finally can u prove that while Mig-21's wern't "detected" they were the one taking the shots at the F-15 C's??
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yes all the threats on indian TV's and IAF bragging about being ready and just waiting for green signals... no one said that did they... or is it more like ud wish this episode never happened....so that u wouldn't have to come here with excuses of political reasons... and all just cuz the IAF wanted to calm a little after PAF vowed a response....
> Lemme refresh ur memory a little..
> PAF vs IAF: Indian media - YouTube
> 
> And just like u, ur media forgets some thingies which PAF has eg in this video u have F-16 being totally forgotten...and ur sitting there claiming that PAF only has 18 BVR platforms...
> 
> 
> 
> -F-7 PG's
> -Mirage with Rose upgrades
> -40 odd JF-17's with SD-10's-
> - 2-3 MLU upgraded aircrafts received or was it more...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U know dear *we totally accept that... unlike certain some one that is stuck on a certain project for 30 odd years having radar from Israel, weapons from Russia and Israel, engine from USA , MFD's etc from France, laser pods from Israel and calling it
> *
> *India's homemade .....*




Enemy won't wait for us until we made indigenous weapons.... already we are faced such situations recently in Kargil..... so don't lead us into off topic.


----------



## ziaulislam

best way to discuss with Indians is not to discuss...

a wise man said never discuss With idiots, or they will bring you to your level and then defeat you with their experience 



P.S

noone denies india has 3 times superiorty over PAF but since when they havnt..
its like this since 1947, was in 65 and 71 and 5 times in 99

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## ziaulislam

abdulbarijan said:


> -F-7 PG's
> -Mirage with Rose upgrades
> -40 odd JF-17's with SD-10's-
> - 2-3 MLU upgraded aircrafts received or was it more...



i know this isnt the palce but can F-7PGs use Sd-10..
i mean we did heard it azimuth is only +/-30 so it cant utilize the SD-10 fully..?


----------



## DARKY

abdulbarijan said:


> Hold ur horses dude, this claim came from *Col Terrence Fornof's utube video, now if that is what u take it as the truth , *
> 
> -do u also take the fact that he mentioned about the same "rules" for USAF in Cope India's as true too??
> 
> -Do u also take the claim of SU-30 MKI (yes the God's gift to aviation) got its arse whooped by the USAF.. in red flag 08.. do u take that as true as well.... or are u having second thoughts like ur AF.. LOL!
> 
> -Finally can u prove that while Mig-21's wern't "detected" they were the one taking the shots at the F-15 C's??



Was that Col. in India ?
Well where does Su30MKI come into this equation.. when we are talking of Mig21s ?... you people have the habit of dragging things and derail the discussion.
Su30MKI performed considerably well under the conditions applied to it... as admitted by the Col.
Why don't you look the video for your answer about Mig21.. lol.. you people even dare to ask for although you can't provide any.
Go an read about Elta 8222 jammer.




abdulbarijan said:


> Oh yes all the threats on indian TV's and IAF bragging about being ready and just waiting for green signals... no one said that did they... or is it more like ud wish this episode never happened....so that u wouldn't have to come here with excuses of political reasons... and all just cuz the IAF wanted to calm a little after PAF vowed a response....
> Lemme refresh ur memory a little..
> PAF vs IAF: Indian media - YouTube



The Pakistani TV talks about the conquest of India by a swine... Now Do you buy his thoughts.
You look too much of TV-media... why are you staying in Pakistan as it has been classified as one of the most dangerous place.. and tourists are warned against going there.. wait you live in China why would you bother..
Too much for the media... is it good man ?



abdulbarijan said:


> And just like u, ur media forgets some thingies which PAF has eg in this video u have F-16 being totally forgotten...and ur sitting there claiming that PAF only has 18 BVR platforms...
> 
> 
> 
> -F-7 PG's
> -Mirage with Rose upgrades
> -40 odd JF-17's with SD-10's-
> - 2-3 MLU upgraded aircrafts received or was it more...



F-7PG--- You are yet to name the BVR missile it has... Pakistan as of now only have Aim120c5 BVR missile which can't be fired off F-7PG.
Mirage(whatever upgrade)-- Name the BVR.
JF-17---those 40 or 37 JF-17 doesn't fire BVR.. this you won't find in media...
I added 3/4 F-16 upgraded.

So where does the BVR force stands now ?









abdulbarijan said:


> U know dear *we totally accept that... unlike certain some one that is stuck on a certain project for 30 odd years having radar from Israel, weapons from Russia and Israel, engine from USA , MFD's etc from France, laser pods from Israel and calling it
> *
> *India's homemade .....*



All better than China mades and China labeled.


----------



## DARKY

ziaulislam said:


> best way to discuss with Indians is not to discuss...
> 
> a wise man said never discuss With idiots, or they will bring you to your level and then defeat you with their experience
> 
> 
> 
> P.S
> 
> noone denies india has 3 times superiorty over PAF but since when they havnt..
> its like this since 1947, was in 65 and 71 and 5 times in 99


 
No Indian would come here until you people came up with baseless and bogus claims like PAF is on Par with IAF... we just proved that it doesn't.... and won't for long time to come.


Say that to the posters who were ranting a couple of pages before.



Oscar said:


> So how long were you employed at AWC to know that?



Why don't you tell us.. oh wait even Iran is has those labs and club organisations working and spending more than what you do in Pakistan to prepare for such projects in future.. but can they make it... yeah may be in next 15 years..



Oscar said:


> So how long were you employed at AWC to know that?



Why don't you tell us.. oh wait even Iran is has those labs and club organisations working and spending more than what you do in Pakistan to prepare for such projects in future.. but can they make it... yeah may be in next 15 years..


----------



## Donatello

WTF!!!

Are the Mods on drugs.............the last two pages have absolutely nothing to do with Pakistan's F-16s.

It is a India vs Pakistan battle going on and no one is cleaning up?


----------



## Last Hope

Donatello said:


> WTF!!!
> 
> Are the Mods on drugs.............the last two pages have absolutely nothing to do with Pakistan's F-16s.
> 
> It is a India vs Pakistan battle going on and no one is cleaning up?



Complained several times, no result. Agnostic Muslim or Webmaster would help.


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## Donatello

Last Hope said:


> Complained several times, no result. Agnostic Muslim or Webmaster would help.



....Oscar is actually posting here....feeding trolls.....i didn't expect this from Oscar.........


----------



## Bratva

DARKY said:


> Was that Col. in India ?
> Well where does Su30MKI come into this equation.. when we are talking of Mig21s ?... you people have the habit of dragging things and derail the discussion.
> Su30MKI performed considerably well under the conditions applied to it... as admitted by the Col.
> Why don't you look the video for your answer about Mig21.. lol.. you people even dare to ask for although you can't provide any.
> Go an read about Elta 8222 jammer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Pakistani TV talks about the conquest of India by a swine... Now Do you buy his thoughts.
> You look too much of TV-media... why are you staying in Pakistan as it has been classified as one of the most dangerous place.. and tourists are warned against going there.. wait you live in China why would you bother..
> Too much for the media... is it good man ?
> 
> 
> 
> *F-7PG--- You are yet to name the BVR missile it has... Pakistan as of now only have Aim120c5 BVR missile which can't be fired off F-7PG.
> Mirage(whatever upgrade)-- Name the BVR.
> JF-17---those 40 or 37 JF-17 doesn't fire BVR.. this you won't find in media...
> I added 3/4 F-16 upgraded.*
> 
> 
> So where does the BVR force stands now ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All better than China mades and China labeled.



You are surely getting **** hurt day by day, it is clouding your judgments. JF-17 pics with SD-10 is available on net you can surely see them to know JF-17 can fire SD-10 A. F-7PG can fire R-darter BVR which is made in Pakistan locally under the name of cresent moon or something like that. SInce you don't know a dime about what is going on in Pakistan, so you better shut your mouth or do a proper research before opening your mouth for farting. It makes you look less desperate than. Oy yes, 250 SD-10 A in pakistan inventory.

Talking about media, take your head out your back and read last month kanwa issue. PAF JF-17 director given a very detail outlook and tells which weapons are integrated and tested on JF-17 and SD-10 is one of them....

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## alimobin memon

mafiya said:


> You are surely getting **** hurt day by day, it is clouding your judgments. JF-17 pics with SD-10 is available on net you can surely see them to know JF-17 can fire SD-10 A. F-7PG can fire R-darter BVR which is made in Pakistan locally under the name of cresent moon or something like that. SInce you don't know a dime about what is going on in Pakistan, so you better shut your mouth or do a proper research before opening your mouth for farting. It makes you look less desperate than. Oy yes, 250 SD-10 A in pakistan inventory.
> 
> Talking about media, take your head out your back and read last month kanwa issue. PAF JF-17 director given a very detail outlook and tells which weapons are integrated and tested on JF-17 and SD-10 is one of them....



LEave him "he's just a kid or at lease acting like it now"

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## danger007

abdulbarijan said:


> Hold ur horses dude, this claim came from *Col Terrence Fornof's utube video, now if that is what u take it as the truth , *
> 
> -do u also take the fact that he mentioned about the same "rules" for USAF in Cope India's as true too??
> 
> -Do u also take the claim of SU-30 MKI (yes the God's gift to aviation) got its arse whooped by the USAF.. in red flag 08.. do u take that as true as well.... or are u having second thoughts like ur AF.. LOL!
> 
> -Finally can u prove that while Mig-21's wern't "detected" they were the one taking the shots at the F-15 C's??
> 
> 
> 
> Oh yes all the threats on indian TV's and IAF bragging about being ready and just waiting for green signals... no one said that did they... or is it more like ud wish this episode never happened....so that u wouldn't have to come here with excuses of political reasons... and all just cuz the IAF wanted to calm a little after PAF vowed a response....
> Lemme refresh ur memory a little..
> PAF vs IAF: Indian media - YouTube
> 
> And just like u, ur media forgets some thingies which PAF has eg in this video u have F-16 being totally forgotten...and ur sitting there claiming that PAF only has 18 BVR platforms...
> 
> 
> 
> -F-7 PG's
> -Mirage with Rose upgrades
> -40 odd JF-17's with SD-10's-
> - 2-3 MLU upgraded aircrafts received or was it more...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U know dear *we totally accept that... unlike certain some one that is stuck on a certain project for 30 odd years having radar from Israel, weapons from Russia and Israel, engine from USA , MFD's etc from France, laser pods from Israel and calling it
> *
> *India's homemade .....*
> 
> 
> 
> Ur friend was the one who started all this conversation stating PAF only had 18 BVR platforms and then he was the one talking about indigenous as well...
> 
> I simply replied ...



it is nabil who asked to discuss the qulitative advantage ..... and darky just sharing his views...... but you gives keep bringing Russia,Israel so and so........ I find, not worth full to respond in this kinda arguments.... when he is talking his views or his points.... what the need to brag..... where the weapons came so n so......


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## SBD-3

sandy_3126 said:


> Numbers on paper or inventory sitting in hangars, wont do much to a IAF formation which may be outnumbered by a PAF formation in limited engagement. In today's day and age it's all about anticipating the opponents move and providing optimal resources. 700 IAF a/c wont fight 400 paf a/c to death.
> 
> There is one odd thing I find among few members who claim R77-AE to be inferior to Aim 120 and then in the same breath claim PL12/Sd10 to be comparable to aim 120 although it's based on R77 Rvv-Ae to begin with. funny


1-Just go to Janes Defence weekly, search for SD-10 and AGAT (The Manufacturer of Seekers for R-77). You should be able to know who funded AGAT for developing the seeker for latest R-77 AE-RVV? and more importantly, where this technology was first used.....
2-You guys keep yelling like Children that Every Chinese weapon has to be a copy of Russian equivalent. Chinese have become way much smarter than that, just a hint, here is an example for you





Their technology acquisitions range from local development centers to Europe and even in US. And this list is certainly not exhaustive since they continue to strive for more and more acquisitions. 
So its better to get out of 90s mentality....

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## Arsalan

DARKY said:


> F-7PG--- You are yet to name the BVR missile it has... Pakistan as of now only have Aim120c5 BVR missile which can't be fired off F-7PG.
> Mirage(whatever upgrade)-- Name the BVR.
> JF-17---those 40 or 37 JF-17 doesn't fire BVR.. this you won't find in media...
> I added 3/4 F-16 upgraded.
> 
> So where does the BVR force stands now ?



At ZERO!

you were wrong, even the 18 F-16 you mentioned cant fire BVR. HAPPY??

now relax and* let us stay on topic*. enough of this stupid discussion. 

why don't you take out time and go check for yourself if F-7PG can fire or what Mirage (its not *whatever*, its *ROSE I,II,III*) upgrades can fire which missile? search with key words like Mirage+Rose upgrades+R-Darter, this will help!

*@ abdulbarijan* know it, they have looked for it, have searched it but wont ever admit it!
he have not a single proof to support what he is claiming so let us just ignore and continue with on topic discussion.
Leave it brother, its no use, we have discussed this time and time again but no use. they

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## alimobin memon

All mirages and f7 have pulse doppler radar with atleast 30 km vs 5m^2 range only reconnaissance version of Mirage have no radar now. Rose are especially designed for Night operation or least built in targeting pods


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## Storm Force

I came on to this thread expexting to see a civilised discussion about the F16 in PAF AND WHETHER THE GOP and PAF should acquire more F16s or move onto J10 FC20 in light of recent USA V PAK tension. 

INSTEAD

we have the OLD CHESTNUT of su30mki & USA red flag excercise and jft carrys SD10 proof etc etc. 

WE GOING ROUND IN CIRCLES with the same garbage

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## dexter

PAF F-16s at Skardu.

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## Storm Force

Regardless of what anyways says re JFT or indeed FC20 .........

iF ANY INDIAN FIGHTER PILOT crosses the LOC those F16 pilots are the ones they respect and fear the most....

Great fighter the FALCON and ahead of its time in the the 1980s when it arrived

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## bloo

> -Do u also take the claim of SU-30 MKI (yes the God's gift to aviation) got its arse whooped by the USAF.. in red flag 08.. do u take that as true as well.... or are u having second thoughts like ur AF.. LOL!


Livefist: LiveFist Column: Vishnu Som first-hand on what really happened at Red Flag 08
Exercise Red Flag 2008-4 / Su-30MKI vs F-15, F-16, F-22
A final word, from India, on 'YouTube Terry' - The DEW Line


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## Last Hope

Poor editing and video but some parts, like the close-up were good.

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## Trailer23

Yeah, the editing is kinda crap.

I was curious where they got the footage from *2:22* to *2:43* because I haven't seen much footage from *Red Flag* on YouTube.

The *UAE Desert Falcon* documentary from a couple of years back was awesome. They aired it in Arabic & English on Abu Dhabi TV. The English version was narrated by Michael '_Jester_' Ironside.


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## razgriz19

Trailer23 said:


> Yeah, the editing is kinda crap.
> 
> I was curious where they got the footage from *2:22* to *2:43* because I haven't seen much footage from *Red Flag* on YouTube.
> 
> The *UAE Desert Falcon* documentary from a couple of years back was awesome. They aired it in Arabic & English on Abu Dhabi TV. The English version was narrated by Michael '_Jester_' Ironside.



im pretty sure that footage is not from the Red Flag but from the trainng that PAF crew recieved for blk 52s.


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## Edevelop



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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Storm Force said:


> Regardless of what anyways says re JFT or indeed FC20 .........
> 
> iF ANY INDIAN FIGHTER PILOT crosses the LOC those F16 pilots are the ones they respect and fear the most....
> 
> Great fighter the FALCON and ahead of its time in the the 1980s when it arrived


but soon they will start to fear from JF-17 and Fc-20 too..... 
well surely f-16 was a master piece when it was introduced and still a master piece in beauty and shape .....


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## Manticore




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## Najam Khan

Last Hope said:


> Poor editing and video but some parts, like the close-up were good.


 
Thanks to people like this uploader, Squadron's internal videos hit internet. Their small attempt to get more likes/viewership creates trouble for the actual owners.

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## Albatross

Najam Khan said:


> Thanks to people like this uploader, Squadron's internal videos hit internet. Their small attempt to get more likes/viewership creates trouble for the actual owners.



I agree with you besides the only thing I really liked in this video was the song which was a Pakistani song by a pakistani poet and sung by a pakistani singer..I hated the way they were showing off this f-16 in Disco lights as if they had created it themselves after spending so many years under military rules forget about general grwoth atleast we would have made some progress militarily and made such planes ourselves..It would have made everything in this video picture perfect once the american flag and people would have beeen excluded..

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## Najam Khan

Albatross said:


> I agree with you besides the only thing I really liked in this video was the song which was a Pakistani song by a pakistani poet and sung by a pakistani singer..*I hated the way they were showing off this f-16 in Disco lights as if they had created it themselves after spending so many years under military rules forget about general grwoth atleast we would have made some progress militarily and made such planes ourselves..*It would have made everything in this video picture perfect once the american flag and people would have beeen excluded..


That "disco lights" scene is from the roll out ceremony of F-16 Block52 aircraft, organized by LM. PAC did similar work on JF-17 roll out ceremony held in Nov2009. 

As far as the gora's involvement is concerned, this video is made in early2010 when JCB had these trainers stationed in the base.

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## Trailer23

Just watched *Anadolu Kartallar&#305;/Anatolian Eagles*. Pretty decent movie camouflaged as documentary or vice versa. The Turkish Air Force probably got a number of people signing up after this movie got released.

I heard that the US Navy actually had recruits outside movie theaters when _Top Gun_ was realeased.

I must say that I was a lil' disappointed in the end when I saw flags of USA, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Spain & no Pakistan. But then again, PAF wasn't invited in _Anatolian Eagle 2011_.


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## Manticore

Trailer23 said:


> Just watched *Anadolu Kartallar&#305;/Anatolian Eagles*. Pretty decent movie camouflaged as documentary or vice versa. The Turkish Air Force probably got a number of people signing up after this movie got released.
> 
> I heard that the US Navy actually had recruits outside movie theaters when _Top Gun_ was realeased.
> 
> I must say that I was a lil' disappointed in the end when I saw flags of USA, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Spain & no Pakistan. But then again, PAF wasn't invited in _Anatolian Eagle 2011_.



In other words you can say that paf pilots didnt get wh***** in the movie -- if youve watched the movie , the turkish instructor asked the newbie hero pilot not to kill the visitors in the first minute & give them a chance to learn something from the turkish .... after which you saw a usaf pilot whining upon his defeat

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## Donatello

ANTIBODY said:


> In other words you can say that paf pilots didnt get wh***** in the movie



...i actually didn't get that.....why would you say that?


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## Trailer23

I just finished re-editing the *UAE Desert Falcons* documentary from a couple of years back.

There is the _Arabic version_ available on YouTube, but I was hoping to get the _English version_ narrated by _Michael 'Jester' Ironside_.

I managed to get the English version of Mediafire, but (a) it was a p!ss-poor quality & (b) the file was in *.wmv format.

I just got the Arabic version off YouTube, & inserted the English audio on it via Adobe Premiere.

Final result has turned out pretty good. I'm thinking about putting it up on my YouTube.

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## alimobin memon

UAE Air Force Red Flag exercise - English - YouTube

Here is Full English Version

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## Last Hope

*You may see active participation of atleast four F-16s with laser-guided and dumb bombs. Hi-Mark 2010.*

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## SBD-3

Najam Khan said:


> Thanks to people like this uploader, Squadron's internal videos hit internet. Their small attempt to get more likes/viewership creates trouble for the actual owners.


If you focus more critically on the video, most of the filming of PAF fighters has been carried out from american falcons (USAF insignia can be seen on wings of filming viper. Furthermore, all the internal and close shots are on USAF vipers (the person at 0.49 is an american,the training pilots on 2.26 appear to be Pakistanis, but when you see the tail of the aircraft they ride at 2:41, the insignia is that of USAF)


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## Trailer23

alimobin memon said:


> UAE Air Force Red Flag exercise - English - YouTube
> 
> Here is Full English Version



Yeah, looks like he just uploaded it.


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## dexter

Aasman ko choomtay hain badalon ko cheer kar
Sarzameen e Pak h shaheen shahpar

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## Trailer23

That is so sexy... I can't think of any (sane) kid who didn't dream to actually fly an F-16 while growing up.

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## Nishan_101

alimobin memon said:


> UAE Air Force Red Flag exercise - English - YouTube
> 
> Here is Full English Version


 
MASHA ALLAH.

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## TOPGUN

Trailer23 said:


> That is so sexy... I can't think of any (sane) kid who didn't dream to actually fly an F-16 while growing up.



And us old school kids still do even the younger ones now but many of us hate to admit it cuz of the gora tension.

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## Dazzler

saw the movie long time ago, the plot is based on the f-16 fly by wire issue that remained hidden or kept hidden during early years until a major accident occurred that caused GD a handsome amount.


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## nomi007



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## umair86

nabil_05 said:


> saw the movie long time ago, the plot is based on the f-16 fly by wire issue that remained hidden or kept hidden during early years until a major accident occurred that caused GD a handsome amount.


 
it was afterburn which highlighted the wiring chaffing that caused short circuiting of navigation systems causing the failure of primary and secondary failure of all on board altimeters.


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## nomi007



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## mylovepakistan

cant wait for accomplishment of MLU process...!


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## mylovepakistan

did pakistan buy AGM HARM missiles?


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## umair86

mylovepakistan said:


> did pakistan buy AGM HARM missiles?


 
no AGM-88 were not ordered but got MAR-1 from Brazil for JF-17.


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## monitor

Is it right currently Pakistan operating 63 F-16 comprising block 15 to block 52+ according to wikipedia ?


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## alimobin memon

monitor said:


> Is it right currently Pakistan operating 63 F-16 comprising block 15 to block 52+ according to wikipedia ?


yes and f16 block 15 are being upgraded to block 50 standards named as MLU (mid life update).


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## mylovepakistan

when will the MLU process be completed?


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## Windjammer



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## Arsalan

mylovepakistan said:


> when will the MLU process be completed?


Three Aircraft have bee delivered to PAF after MLU and the up gradation of entire PAF Blk 15 F-116 is due to be completed in 2014.
regards!

regards!

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## Donatello

arsalanaslam123 said:


> Three Aircraft have bee delivered to PAF after MLU and the up gradation of entire PAF Blk 15 F-116 is due to be completed in 2014.
> regards!
> 
> regards!



What about the 14 F-16s that we got from USAF? Are they already MLU-ed or will PAF MLU them ?


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## Arsalan

Donatello said:


> What about the 14 F-16s that we got from USAF? Are they already MLU-ed or will PAF MLU them ?



we have got *18* (and only 18, *not 36* as reported on some forums due to confusion) Block 52 aircraft from US (brand new ones). 

The MLU is proposed/done on Blk 15 batch to bring these to BLK40 Standard. 
details of MLU are present in relevant thread and you can check these for reference. the MLU process will be completed by August 29, 2012
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...6-mlu-specifications-36-blk-52-prospects.html

The 14 you mentioned are perhaps are the Embargoed one that were supposed to be released in 2012 but in current situation. at least I AM not so hopeful. 

regards!

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## CallsignAlzaeem

One MLU is on the way back from Turkey,Will reach Pakistan soon in next few says.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

hi, your source???


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## Last Hope

Donatello said:


> What about the 14 F-16s that we got from USAF? Are they already MLU-ed or will PAF MLU them ?



I assume that you are talking about the F-16s which were embargoed and used by US Navy. They are Block 40 and will arrive by December 2012 according to some highly creditable online-media.


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## Arsalan

Last Hope said:


> I assume that you are talking about the F-16s which were embargoed and used by US Navy. They are Block 40 and will arrive by December 2012 according to some highly creditable online-media.



can you kindly pot a link to this info as well for more details?

i have also heard this news (of release of embargoed F-16) with same time line but in current Pak-US relations, this seem highly unlikely! 
also, these are Blk 40? As per my information*, US gov back in 2011 transferred these embargoed planes to PAF on paper* but which blk and which model ( C/D ) was still being negotiated but these were most likely to be Blk-15. 

All this was back then, the time when relations were going smoothly. All this is under doubts now given the current relation/situation. Please post a link for detail study.

regards!

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## farhan_9909

YEss as far as i know
we will receive 14 more F-16(dnt knw about blocks) in dec 2012.

i think everyone knew this.

and this will make total F-16 to 77 or odd 80


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## Arsalan

farhan_9909 said:


> YEss as far as i know
> we will receive 14 more F-16(dnt knw about blocks) in dec 2012.
> 
> i think everyone knew this.
> 
> and this will make total F-16 to 77 or odd 80



Yes we all know this but the question is, Is this still going to to happen?


anyways, only time will tell and as from our past experience, we can never be sure while dealing with US! 

as for MLU, PAF have got total of* 5 upgraded* aircrafts after MLU upgrades. all were delivered in February 2012.
Two of these upgraded F-16 Blk 15 (upgraded to Blk 40 Std) came from US along with the 18th Blk-52 and three were delivered from TAI Turkey.


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## Last Hope

arsalanaslam123 said:


> can you kindly pot a link to this info as well for more details?
> 
> i have also heard this news (of release of embargoed F-16) with same time line but in current Pak-US relations, this seem highly unlikely!
> also, these are Blk 40? As per my information*, US gov back in 2011 transferred these embargoed planes to PAF on paper* but which blk and which model ( C/D ) was still being negotiated but these were most likely to be Blk-15.
> 
> All this was back then, the time when relations were going smoothly. All this is under doubts now given the current relation/situation. Please post a link for detail study.
> 
> regards!



I tried searching for it but couldn't find it. I use Google News you see. The article was from a American paper, saying Pakistan will receive 14 Block 40 by December 2012.


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## Arsalan

*Maintenance Programs of Pakistani Falcons*
Pakistan Air Force (PAF) inducted F-16 Fighting Falcon in January 1983. This provided a quantum leap to the PAF. It was PAFs first experience of handling such a modern day fighter aircraft. From 1986 to 1988 F-16s participated in air defence missions carried out in Afghan War (1979-1988). F-16s played a vital role in guarding the western borders of Pakistan from Soviet/Afghan intruding aircraft. During the war PAF flew a total of 10,939 sorties and logged 13,275 hours.
This extreme usage of F-16s in the start of its career raised serious questions about its service life in coming decades. PAF went for development of in-house facilities for maintenance and overhaul of F-16 components. A F-16 Upgrade Cell was established at Sargodha Air Base. This cell was capable of performing depot level structural and avionics related modifications in the F-16s. These modifications include Operational Capability Upgrade (OCU), 479 Bulk Head Replacement Module and Wing box modifications.
In 1989, Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra was assigned the task of overhauling the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200 turbofan engine that powers the F-16 fleet in PAF service. The F-16s structural modifications were made in engine, fuselage, ailerons and flaps. These structural modifications were a part of its type extension program. Reinforcement plates were also added on the fuselage to strengthen the structural integrity of the F-16s, thus extending its service life.
MRF has also upgraded the F100 engine from 200 to 220E configuration. The -220Econfiguration provides better performance and greater reliability. Up to 26 modifications were made in F-100 engines modules including fan, engine core, fuel nozzles, gearbox, high pressure turbineetc






*Engineers working on F-100 power plant at MRF facility. The F-100 modules repair/overhaul consists of Inlet Fan Module (IF), Fan Drive Turbine (FDT) Module, Core Module, Gearbox Module, and High Pressure Turbine Module (HPT).*

Improvement in the service life of various F-100 modules is as follows:
*Fan Module * 1800-4000 Hours
*Core Module * 4000 Hours
* Turbine * 3500 Hours
*Augmentor Module* 4000 Hours
*Gearbox Module* 4000 Hours

The repair, up-gradation and overhaul of F-100 Engine, replacement of wing and fuselage fuel cells are also carried out by MRF. MRF has been certified for aircraft painting and de-painting as well.The F-16s avionics, structuraland engine related modifications allowed the PAF to maintain a high level of readiness despite U.S. sanctions and arms embargo from the West and did not hamper the operational preparedness of the fighting force during both times of peace and war.





_*A F-16B with structural reinforcement plate visible on its fuselage. Inset is close up of a structural reinforcement plate.*_





*F-16A undergoing painting at aircraft painting facility, MRF.*

Over the years,F-16s have participated in various multinational exercises around the globe. The devoted ground crew has always ensured the combat ready status of these falcons. F-16s participation in counter insurgency operations in Global War on Terror are the recent example of their combat record.

In June 2009, PAF, Lockheed Martin and United States Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) signed a contract of Mid Life Update (MLU) of these F-16s. Under this program, TAI will upgrade 41 F-16 A/B Block-15E aircraft at the TAI facility in Ankara, Turkey. It will also provide training to PAF technicians and engineers on MLU F-16s. After getting the MLU, these aircraft will be a mainstay aircraft in PAF for at least two decades. PAF will use these modified F-16s as a deterrent to regional threats and to strengthen the defense of Pakistan.
Maintenance Programs of Pakistani Falcons | PAFwallpapers Blog

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## Najam Khan

*8th Pakistani F-16 pilot joins 2000hrs club*

In March/April 2012, Wg Cdr Ghazanfar Latif (then OC No.5 Sqn) reached the unique milestone of becoming the 8th Pakistan Air Force F-16 pilot to complete 2000hrs. Wg Cdr Ghazanfar has been flying F-16s since 1996 and apart from participating in domestic exercises & operational deployments. He has also actively participated in several multinational exercises for PAF that include Exercise Anatolian Eagle 2004 (Turkey), Indus Viper 2008 (Pakistan) and Falcon Talon 2009 (Pakistan).

PAF has been operating F-16s since January 1983 and since then hundreds of thousands of flying hours have been accumulated by the Pakistani pilots. Over fifty PAF pilots have surpassed the 1000hrs benchmark.





June 26, 2010: Wg Cdr Ghazanfar Latif poses for the camera after ferrying first ever F-16 Block-52 aircraft from U.S to Pakistan. He also led the team that ferried MLU F-16s from Turkey in Feb 2012. PAFs fleet of F-16A/B Block-15 are undergoing MLU at Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), Turkey which are expected to be completed by 2014.





Lockheed Martin Corp. delivers the specially designed F-16 2000-hour patch to the pilots of recipient Air Forces.

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## dexter

Wing Commander Ali at Izmir-Cigli.

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## razgriz19

Last Hope said:


> I assume that you are talking about the F-16s which were embargoed and used by US Navy. They are Block 40 and will arrive by December 2012 according to some highly creditable online-media.



all the aircrafts used by USN were blk-15s, not 40.
and US does not owe us anymore aircrafts for the record.

we recieved 14 of them a couple of years ago from USAF and the other 14 ( operated by USN) were cashed into something else.
Musharraf himself said it. i remember it.
and it was a good decision as those aircrafts were good for nothing, their structure was so damage that they wouldn't be able to take combat load into any theatre. their role required continuous high Gs as flown by the aggressors of USN. and besides USN wasn't willing to give their aircrafts either.

hope this clears things up for everyone.


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## Last Hope

razgriz19 said:


> *all the aircrafts used by USN were blk-15s, not 40.*
> and US does not owe us anymore aircrafts for the record.
> 
> we recieved 14 of them a couple of years ago from USAF and the other 14 ( operated by USN) were cashed into something else.
> Musharraf himself said it. i remember it.
> and it was a good decision as those aircrafts were good for nothing, their structure was so damage that they wouldn't be able to take combat load into any theatre. their role required continuous high Gs as flown by the aggressors of USN. and besides USN wasn't willing to give their aircrafts either.
> 
> hope this clears things up for everyone.



They were Block-15 OCU but underwent a MLU.


----------



## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> all the aircrafts used by USN were blk-15s, not 40.
> and US does not owe us anymore aircrafts for the record.
> 
> we recieved 14 of them a couple of years ago from USAF and the *other 14 ( operated by USN) were cashed into something else*.
> Musharraf himself said it. i remember it.
> and it was a good decision as those aircrafts were good for nothing, their structure was so damage that they wouldn't be able to take combat load into any theatre. their role required continuous high Gs as flown by the aggressors of USN. and besides USN wasn't willing to give their aircrafts either.
> 
> hope this clears things up for everyone.



wrong. Bush admin approved delivery of 28. 14 delivered, 14 pending.....



Najam Khan said:


> *8th Pakistani F-16 pilot joins 2000hrs club*
> 
> In March/April 2012, Wg Cdr Ghazanfar Latif (then OC No.5 Sqn) reached the unique milestone of becoming the 8th Pakistan Air Force F-16 pilot to complete 2000hrs. Wg Cdr Ghazanfar has been flying F-16s since 1996 and apart from participating in domestic exercises & operational deployments. He has also actively participated in several multinational exercises for PAF that include Exercise Anatolian Eagle 2004 (Turkey), Indus Viper 2008 (Pakistan) and Falcon Talon 2009 (Pakistan).
> 
> PAF has been operating F-16s since January 1983 and since then hundreds of thousands of flying hours have been accumulated by the Pakistani pilots. Over fifty PAF pilots have surpassed the 1000hrs benchmark.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> June 26, 2010: Wg Cdr Ghazanfar Latif poses for the camera after ferrying first ever F-16 Block-52 aircraft from U.S to Pakistan. He also led the team that ferried MLU F-16s from Turkey in Feb 2012. PAF&#8217;s fleet of F-16A/B Block-15 are undergoing MLU at Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), Turkey which are expected to be completed by 2014.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lockheed Martin Corp. delivers the specially designed F-16 2000-hour patch to the pilots of recipient Air Forces.



name the other 7 - 2,000 hour viper drivers of the PAF!

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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day
&#8220;Rule one: No matter what else happens, fly the airplane.&#8221; 
-- Unknown *


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> wrong. Bush admin approved delivery of 28. 14 delivered, 14 pending.....
> 
> 
> 
> name the other 7 - 2,000 hour viper drivers of the PAF!


*
Well, here is Five of them, including the Man himself. *


2,000 Hours 
Wg.Cmd. Tariq Zia
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)
| 9 sqn 


2,000 Hours 
Irfan Ahmed
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)

2,000 Hours 
Cdt. M. Haseeb Paracha
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)
9 sqn | 11 sqn 


2,000 Hours 
Air.Cmd. Ashfaq Arain (Ret.)
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)

2,000 Hours 
Wg.Cmd. Aamir Masood
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)
| 9 sqn

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## Last Hope

There is no mention of any PAF pilot on f-16.net, thought it was recently updated no PAF pilot in 2000+ flying hours cape.


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## Windjammer

*
There you go, the previous seven PAF Viper drivers with 2000 hours under their belt.*

*

Wg.Cmd. Zulfiqar "Sidewinder" Ayub 

Air.Cmd. Ashfaq Arain (Ret.) 

Wg.Cmd. Tariq Zia 

Wg.Cmd. Ali Naeem "Baaz" Zahoor 

Irfan Ahmed 

Gp Capt. Fauad Masud Hatmi 

Wg.Cmd. M. Haseeb Paracha*

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## Najam Khan

Windjammer said:


> *
> There you go, the previous seven PAF Viper drivers with 2000 hours under their belt.*
> 
> *
> 
> Wg.Cmd. Zulfiqar "Sidewinder" Ayub
> 
> Air.Cmd. Ashfaq Arain (Ret.)
> 
> Wg.Cmd. Tariq Zia
> 
> Wg.Cmd. Ali Naeem "Baaz" Zahoor
> 
> Irfan Ahmed
> 
> Gp Capt. Fauad Masud Hatmi
> 
> Wg.Cmd. M. Haseeb Paracha*




Just one correction Its W/C Aamir Masood instead of Haseeb Paracha.

The correct list in the exact order is.
1. Air Marshal Ashfaq Arain (and serving)
2. Gp Capt Irfan Ahmed Khombo
3. Gp Capt. Aamir Masood
4. Gp Capt. Tariq Zia
5. Gp Capt. Fauad Masud Hatmi
6. Wg.Cmd. Ali Naeem Zahoor 
7. Wg.Cmd. Zulfiqar Ayub

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## Windjammer

Najam Khan said:


> Just one correction Its W/C Aamir Masood instead of Haseeb Paracha.
> 
> The correct list in the exact order is.
> 1. Air Marshal Ashfaq Arain (and serving)
> 2. Gp Capt Irfan Ahmed Khombo
> 3. Gp Capt. Aamir Masood
> 4. Gp Capt. Tariq Zia
> 5. Gp Capt. Fauad Masud Hatmi
> 6. Wg.Cmd. Ali Naeem Zahoor
> 7. Wg.Cmd. Zulfiqar Ayub



I thought W/C Aamir Masood comes under 3000 hour category, and G/C Haseeb Paracha is even listed by the F-16 Net.

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?module=pagesetter&tid=62&filter1=country:eq:195


----------



## Najam Khan

*PAFs Shahbaz Air Base in 2012*
Posted on June 29, 2012 by Najam Khan

PAF Air Base (AB) Shahbaz, Jacobabad is the new home of F-16s. The air base was expanded in late 2009/early2010 to accommodate the newly procured F-16 Block52 aircraft. Today Shahbaz AB has an operational F-16 C/D Block-52 squadron and a Mi-171 Search And Rescue (SAR) squadron. The F-16 A/B Block-15 aircraft which are undergoing Mid Life Update (MLU) are also placed at Shahbaz.




Officers of the No.39th Wing at Shahbaz AB along with their aircraft.





Falcons engineering team with F-16 Block-52 and F-16 Mid Life Update (MLU) aircraft.




No.5 Multi Role Sqn operates 18 F-16C/D Block-52 aircraft.




PAF is modernizing its fleet of 45 F-16 A/B Block-15 to Block50 standard with the help of Turkish Aircraft Industries (TAI), Turkey. Seen above is one of the five F-16 MLU currently operated by PAF. Later this year, four more F-16 MLU are scheduled to be delivered to PAF. F-16 MLU has AN/APG-68 V(9) Multimode radar which gives its six on six pylon AIM-120 AMRAAM carrying capability.



Windjammer said:


> I thought W/C Aamir Masood comes under 3000 hour category, and G/C Haseeb Paracha is even listed by the F-16 Net.
> 
> http://www.f-16.net/index.php?module=pagesetter&tid=62&filter1=country:eq:195


Thats wrong,W/C Aamir left active flying in 2008. PAF's pilot account on F-16.net has lots of flaws. G/C Haseeb has 1300/1400 hrs on F-16.

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## DANGER-ZONE

That is strange ! Last time when we saw MLU at delivery time, they had OLD wing-tip rails and many criticised it including me. 
And now it is carrying Aim-120 on wing tip.

Here is the F-16BM 603, Notice the Wing tip Rail.


>

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## Peaceful Civilian

I think We should ask Martian to upgrade these f16 with AESA radar. Then these Upgrade will be worth for every penny


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## mosu

Turkish Aircraft Industries (TAI), is also a good what will they updating also worth every penny


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## DANGER-ZONE

*AND HERE YOU GO FELLAS*

*F-16BM-622 with GBU-24, Sniper POD and Wing-tip rail LAU-129*

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## CallsignAlzaeem

Anatolian Eagle 2012.

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## CallsignAlzaeem



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## TaimiKhan

CallsignAlzaeem said:


>



That C-130 seems to be a special one since its the only C-130 with that many antennas beneath its fuselage. May be some EW kind of aircraft.

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## Trailer23

laghari said:


> Turkish Aircraft Industries (TAI), is also a good what will they updating also worth every penny


For the record, Turkish Aircraft Industries, Inc. (TAI) and TUSA&#350; Aerospace Industries, Inc. (TUSA&#350 merged under the name *Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc. (TAI)* in 2005.

Turkish Aerospace Industries Inc.


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## dexter

Arrows  [No 11 squadron of PAF]

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## Bratva

Windjammer said:


> *Wg.Cmd. M. Haseeb Paracha*



Is he alive?


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## Windjammer

mafiya said:


> Is he alive?



Off course man.....presently serving as an Air Attache in Washington.

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## razgriz19

Last Hope said:


> There is no mention of any PAF pilot on f-16.net, thought it was recently updated no PAF pilot in 2000+ flying hours cape.



not sure how accurate this is but here are the links of PAF Viper drivers with over 2000 flight hours.

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?modul...000,date2000,core.pid&filter1=2K:eq:1&page=12

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?modul...000,date2000,core.pid&filter1=2K:eq:1&page=14

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?modul...000,date2000,core.pid&filter1=2K:eq:1&page=15

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?modul...000,date2000,core.pid&filter1=2K:eq:1&page=16

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?modul...000,date2000,core.pid&filter1=2K:eq:1&page=17

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?modul...000,date2000,core.pid&filter1=2K:eq:1&page=22

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## Donatello

What missile is this :-


F-16 Fighting Falcon - Pakistan Military Photos


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## Imran Khan

Donatello said:


> What missile is this :-
> 
> 
> F-16 Fighting Falcon - Pakistan Military Photos



AGM-65 MAVERICK

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## unicorn

*An investigation blamed moisture for the cracking in the radome of US-made AIM-120s*

_An investigation has concluded that cracking occurring in the radome on some of the US-made AIM-120C air-to-air missiles carried by Taiwans F-16s was caused by long-term exposure to humidity and stress, the Air Force General Headquarters said yesterday._

The air force made the comments after local media reported earlier the same day that the problem with the missile  the most advanced in the Taiwanese air force  had been observed for three consecutive years.The air force currently has 120 AIM-120C-5 and 218 AIM-120C-7 advanced medium-range air-to-air missiles (AMRAAM) in its inventory.

The fire-and-forget missiles are used on its 146 F-16 aircraft. The first order of AIM-120s was delivered to the air force in 2004.Radomes, one of the eight main sections of a missile, are a pyroceramic cone at the nose that serve as a window for radar or heat-seeking electromagnetic devices inside the missile.

In a statement, the air force said it had followed US suggestions to improve rotation cycles and store the missiles in conditions that would reduce the impact of moisture on the radomes. The US has been asked to repair the damaged missiles, the statement said, adding that the problem had not undermined national defense.

Raytheon Corp is the main manufacturer of the missile.In a report on the 2010 AMRAAM International Users Conference held in Florida in May 2010, the Taiwanese air force had already identified the problem and said it had sought the assistance of the US in addressing the impact of high humidity on the missile.

_*The US investigation into the causes of the cracking has ruled out accidental damage caused by poor packaging or handling, as well as vandalism. The probe concluded that the high humidity in Taiwan, as well as the tremendous pressure exerted on the missiles from supersonic flight, were the principal causes of the problem.*_

However, the radomes on the French-made MICA and the domestically produced Tien Chien II Sky Sword  two other air-to-air missiles used by the Taiwanese air force  do not seem to have had similar problems, despite being exposed to the same climatic conditions, storage and rotation cycles.

According to information on Raytheons Web site, 36 countries worldwide have procured the AIM-120. The missile is also used on US aircraft carrier-based F/A-18 Hornet aircraft.

Missile fault blamed on humidity - Taipei Times


*The probe concluded that the high humidity in Taiwan, as well as the tremendous pressure exerted on the missiles from supersonic flight, were the principal causes of the problem*

Pakistan also has the same version AIM-120C. Well these missiles are designed to absorb high G's than how come the cracks can appear due to supersonic flights. I mean the aircraft has less ability to sustain Gs than the missile itself.


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## fatman17

unicorn said:


> *An investigation blamed moisture for the cracking in the radome of US-made AIM-120s*
> 
> _An investigation has concluded that cracking occurring in the radome on some of the US-made AIM-120C air-to-air missiles carried by Taiwan&#8217;s F-16s was caused by long-term exposure to humidity and stress, the Air Force General Headquarters said yesterday._
> 
> The air force made the comments after local media reported earlier the same day that the problem with the missile &#8212; the most advanced in the Taiwanese air force &#8212; had been observed for three consecutive years.The air force currently has 120 AIM-120C-5 and 218 AIM-120C-7 advanced medium-range air-to-air missiles (AMRAAM) in its inventory.
> 
> The &#8220;fire-and-forget&#8221; missiles are used on its 146 F-16 aircraft. The first order of AIM-120s was delivered to the air force in 2004.Radomes, one of the eight main sections of a missile, are a pyroceramic cone at the nose that serve as a window for radar or heat-seeking electromagnetic devices inside the missile.
> 
> In a statement, the air force said it had followed US suggestions to improve rotation cycles and store the missiles in conditions that would reduce the impact of moisture on the radomes. The US has been asked to repair the damaged missiles, the statement said, adding that the problem had not undermined national defense.
> 
> Raytheon Corp is the main manufacturer of the missile.In a report on the 2010 AMRAAM International Users&#8217; Conference held in Florida in May 2010, the Taiwanese air force had already identified the problem and said it had sought the assistance of the US in addressing the impact of high humidity on the missile.
> 
> _*The US investigation into the causes of the cracking has ruled out accidental damage caused by poor packaging or handling, as well as vandalism. The probe concluded that the high humidity in Taiwan, as well as the tremendous pressure exerted on the missiles from supersonic flight, were the principal causes of the problem.*_
> 
> However, the radomes on the French-made MICA and the domestically produced Tien Chien II &#8220;Sky Sword&#8221; &#8212; two other air-to-air missiles used by the Taiwanese air force &#8212; do not seem to have had similar problems, despite being exposed to the same climatic conditions, storage and rotation cycles.
> 
> According to information on Raytheon&#8217;s Web site, 36 countries worldwide have procured the AIM-120. The missile is also used on US aircraft carrier-based F/A-18 Hornet aircraft.
> 
> Missile fault blamed on humidity - Taipei Times
> 
> 
> *The probe concluded that the high humidity in Taiwan, as well as the tremendous pressure exerted on the missiles from supersonic flight, were the principal causes of the problem*
> 
> Pakistan also has the same version AIM-120C. Well these missiles are designed to absorb high G's than how come the cracks can appear due to supersonic flights. I mean the aircraft has less ability to sustain Gs than the missile itself.



our aim-120s are located in dry heat areas - pl dont start a un-necessary controversey! in any case the manufacturer will most likely rectify the problem with the users.

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## fatman17

AMERICAS, THE Date Posted: 28-Jun-2012 


*Pentagon to commence F-16 AESA competition*



Marina Malenic - Aviation Reporter - Washington, DC



Key Points
&#8226;The US Air Force is planning to spend nearly USD2 billion on development, procurement and integration of avionics upgrades for some legacy F-16s. 

&#8226;The effort to modernise the legacy fleet is part of USAF plans to mitigate for F-35 capability fielding delays.



The US Air Force (USAF) has approved an acquisition strategy for a Combat Avionics Programmed Extension Suite (CAPES) for the Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon. 


Northrop Grumman and Raytheon are developing radars that could fulfil a USAF requirement for a new F-16 AESA capability. (USAF) 


The centrepiece of CAPES is a new active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, but it also includes a new centre display unit (CDU) and an ALQ-213 electronic warfare system. 

According to documents obtained , the USAF has set an initial operational capability (IOC) date of 2018 for the upgrade in order to "mitigate F-35 capability fielding delays". The service has long been planning upgrades and service-life extensions to the legacy fleet due to setbacks in the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter programme. 

The USAF plans to spend USD330.8 million developing CAPES over the next five years and another USD1.64 billion procuring and integrating the upgrades, according to an acquisition decision memorandum (ADM) issued on 13 June by the USAF. The funding outlined in the documents would cover an initial 300 aircraft.

In 2011 the USAF released a request for information (RfI) asking potential suppliers for options to upgrade radars on its later-model F-16s. The radar will probably be supplied by Northrop Grumman with its Scaleable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) or Raytheon with its Advanced Combat Radar (RACR). 

Both systems have been in development for several years in anticipation of a USAF competition.

An AESA radar can detect objects much farther away than legacy mechanically scanned radars can. AESA radars also spread their signal emissions out across a band of frequencies, making them more difficult to detect over background noise, thereby allowing aircraft to broadcast radar signals while still remaining stealthy. 

AESA radars are already in service on US Navy Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and on USAF Boeing F-15 Eagles and Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptors. 

According to the acquisition strategy, the CAPES procurement effort will begin in the coming months with an AESA competition.


_could also be offered to foreign operators if successful!_

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## Windjammer

*Albeit, admittedly i tend to go for designer gear, but the PAF seems to have opted for designer infrastructure. Check out the stylish control tower, hangars and other related buildings at Shahbaz Air Base. *

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## Bratva

Windjammer said:


> Off course man.....presently serving as an Air Attache in Washington.



Last year or perhaps in 2010, there was a news, PAF Wing Commander Paracha died in aircraft crash. I must have confused him with that person


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## SBD-3

Windjammer said:


> *Albeit, admittedly i tend to go for designer gear, but the PAF seems to have opted for designer infrastructure. Check out the stylish control tower, hangars and other related buildings at Shahbaz Air Base. *


These were actually developed by Americans as they used the base, you can hardly find the same kind of infrastructure anywhere else.


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## Windjammer

hasnain0099 said:


> These were actually developed by Americans as they used the base, you can hardly find the same kind of infrastructure anywhere else.



Some Karachi based company did the construction, remember seeing one of their brochure, they had one of the Shahbaz building as an example of their work.

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## SBD-3

Windjammer said:


> Some Karachi based company did the construction, remember seeing one of their brochure, they had one of the Shahbaz building as an example of their work.


For civilan infrastructure, Yes. But dont you think the sophistication of hangers to the level of USAF would have been a work of a private construction firm? I remember some think tank noticing that hangers had temp controlling capability, and a lot of machinary and equipment was subsequently donated to Pakistan on evacuation.


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## Nishan_101

Windjammer said:


> *Albeit, admittedly i tend to go for designer gear, but the PAF seems to have opted for designer infrastructure. Check out the stylish control tower, hangars and other related buildings at Shahbaz Air Base. *


 
A 100% U.S looks base. i think there more surprises than which are known to us.


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## Windjammer

hasnain0099 said:


> For civilan infrastructure, Yes. But dont you think the sophistication of hangers to the level of USAF would have been a work of a private construction firm? *I remember some think tank noticing that hangers had temp controlling capability,* and a lot of machinary and equipment was subsequently donated to Pakistan on evacuation.



Supplied and fitted by "Captive Aire (Pakistan) Ltd. 


Welcome To Captive Aire

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## Last Hope

hasnain0099 said:


> These were actually developed by Americans as they used the base, you can hardly find the same kind of infrastructure anywhere else.



Shamsi Airbase has same modern hangars.


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## alibaz

mafiya said:


> Last year or perhaps in 2010, there was a news, PAF Wing Commander Paracha died in aircraft crash. I must have confused him with that person



Wing Commander Asim Paracha (98th GDP) has embraced Shahadat today during a normal routine flight,His Mirage crashed at a site in Balochistan,Namaz-e-Jinaza to commence at 1130 Hrs tomorrow at H-8 graveyard,Islamabad.

Dated. October 19, 2011

F-16 pilot is Group Captain Haseeb Paracha

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## MastanKhan

Unicorn,

Thank you---. That article is a great find----as it is mounted on the F 16's or Pakistan and Taiwan---maybe okay for this thread.

People need to learn what happens to missiles in storage, during flight, in the submarines, in dry, wet or humid conditions etc etc etc.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Unicorn----thank you one more time----. What you have brought up over here is the most important aspect of weapons designing. They are not only designed to do their job when they track and hit a target----but before they do that---they need to maintain and manage their integrity----. 

What you make today is not going to be used tomorrow---. In the air---dry---cold wet weather. In the ocean---wet cold and humidity---rust---oxidation---freezing cold---icing---. Those are all destructive forces----. Now if a missile the aim is having issues----how about the russian or chinese missiles???

That is something to ponder about.


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## SBD-3

Last Hope said:


> Shamsi Airbase has same modern hangars.


also developed by whoelse.....


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## Jango

Aren't the Shamsi hangars kind of a temporary arrangement?

BTW, looks like the Hangars at PAF Shahbaz are air-conditioned as well, look at the photos. maybe the Yanks couldn't handle the Jacobabad heat!


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## soul hacker

just saw on social network sorry if posted earlier

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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day

&#8220;Flying the F-16, second to none best fun with your pants on.&#8221; 
-- Bumper sticker*

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## dexter

''Griffins''

Nellis AB,Taken at Red Flag '10.








PAF-F-16 Squadron 11 ''Arrows'' during Al-Saqoor 2 in Saudi Arabia !! (Courtesy PAF Govt organisation)

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## Mosamania

dexter said:


> PAF-F-16 Squadron 11 ''Arrows'' during Al-Saqoor 2 in Saudi Arabia !! (Courtesy PAF Govt organisation)



I had the pleasure of seeing first hand PAF F-16s flying in formation with RSAF F-15s. Pays to live next to a major Military Air Base

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## Last Hope

Mosamania said:


> I had the pleasure of seeing first hand PAF F-16s flying in formation with RSAF F-15s. Pays to live next to a major Military Air Base



You must live in Taif, or Al-Kharj!


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## Windjammer

*Not sure if these have been posted before.

PAF F-16Bs from No.9 Griffins Squadron, blasting off and touching down during Red Flag.
*

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## Windjammer

*
PAF F-16 in a mass launch during Red Flag.
*

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## nomi007

block52 with tai upgraded f-16

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## soul hacker



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## air marshal

PAF F-16D Block 52+

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## JonAsad

Last Hope said:


> You must live in Taif, or Al-Kharj!


 
Or Qariya Al Mersal-


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## Windjammer

*Grey Turns Green.*








*PAF F-16B block 15 #90615 from 11 Sqn is taxiing at Konya AB on June 20th, 2012 during exercise Anatolian Eagle. Notice the front seater wearing a Green instead of the standard F-16 Grey Helmet.*

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## Mosamania

Last Hope said:


> You must live in Taif, or Al-Kharj!



Yep that's right. I also see a whole range of other jets of other Air Forces occasionally.I saw the PAF Mirages as well as UAE F-16s and Mirages. Saw Jordanian F-16s, Egyptian F-16s, Kuwaiti F-18s, Algerian Su-30s, French Rafales as well as our Typhoons and Hawk advanced trainers which is a common everyday sight.

I also see daily Apaches, Blackhawks, Bells. I saw Abram tanks, M-60 Tanks, Lecleric Tanks, Hopefully will leopards as well soon 

I see everyday Hawk Anti-Air missiles, Patriot Missile defense system, AAAs, Shahin Anti-Air systems on my way to college. 

Reading about all those things around here is one thing, seeing it with your own eyes is something completely different.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> *Grey Turns Green.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *PAF F-16B block 15 #90615 from 11 Sqn is taxiing at Konya AB on June 20th, 2012 during exercise Anatolian Eagle. Notice the front seater wearing a Green instead of the standard F-16 Grey Helmet.*



what does green helmet signify?

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> what does green helmet signify?



Sir, in an international exercise, a little bit of patriotism always gives a boost.

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## nomi007

over the Himalayas

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## Najam Khan

Radom F-16 photos.









No.11 Sqn F-16B 82-601, the first dual seat F-16 delivered to PAF in Jan'1983.





F-16B 90-617 (11 Sqn ), the first aircraft delivered to Turkish Air craft Industries (TAI) for Mid Life Update (MLU)





Griffins going hot!


















15 Hi-Res pictures from F-16C/D Block-52 roll out ceremony.

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## soul hacker

Aircraft in background Mi-171, F-16C Block-52 and F-16A MLU at shahbaz air base

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## Nishan_101

The current old 14 F-16 Blk-15 as well as the 18 F-16 Blk-52 are stationed at Shahbaz AFB and I think the coming 14 F-16 Blk-15 from US will also be stationed at ShahBaz AFB, which is amazing.


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## Donatello

Can anyone confirm if all F-16s in PAF's inventory will be shifted to Shahbaz?

Like, 14th, 9th and 5th squadrons?


Also, which aircraft will replace these at Sargodha?


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## nomi007




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## Windjammer

Donatello said:


> Can anyone confirm if all F-16s in PAF's inventory will be shifted to Shahbaz?
> 
> Like, 14th, 9th and 5th squadrons?
> 
> 
> Also, which aircraft will replace these at Sargodha?



While No 5 and 9 are F-16 units, N0 14 is not.
No 5 is already based in Shahbaz, while N0 9 and No 11, the other F-16 unit are stationed in Sargodha, no doubt they will remain there for Central Command defence.


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## Najam Khan

Donatello said:


> *Can anyone confirm if all F-16s in PAF's inventory will be shifted to Shahbaz?*


WJ has answered your question. I would like to add that, the MLUs at Shahbaz,JCB are temporary assignment. These aircraft will be shifted back to their original units whenever required strength to run MLU conversion course is achieved. Even today the MLUs wear markings of their original units (although they are operated by 5 Sqn).


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## Last Hope

Donatello said:


> Can anyone confirm if all F-16s in PAF's inventory will be shifted to Shahbaz?
> 
> Like, 14th, 9th and 5th squadrons?
> 
> 
> Also, which aircraft will replace these at Sargodha?



The F-16s that arrive after MLU from Turkey and US will be stationed at PAF Base Shahbaz. They will stay there until the pilot conversion training is over, and then they will move to their respected Squadrons/Bases. So yes, all PAF F-16s will be shifted to PAF Base Shahbaz but for a short time. 

And JF-17 Block II's second squadron will be homed at PAF Base Shahbaz, it will replace the Mirage.

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## Imran Khan



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## TaimiKhan

Last Hope said:


> The F-16s that arrive after MLU from Turkey and US will be stationed at PAF Base Shahbaz. They will stay there until the pilot conversion training is over, and then they will move to their respected Squadrons/Bases. So yes, all PAF F-16s will be shifted to PAF Base Shahbaz but for a short time.
> 
> And JF-17 Block II's second squadron will be homed at PAF Base Shahbaz, it will replace the Mirage.


 
For next 5-10 years JF-17s going to Shahbaz is a very hard thing to happen as the Americans have specifically stated that no Chinese stuff at Shahbaz so that no Chinese are seen on the base. Shahbaz AB had some Chinese air conditioning unit installed at specific locations, which were removed also as the Americans were uncomfortable with the Chinese stuff as it would have required Chinese techs coming for repairing or normals visits, even though PAF told them that we have our own technicians trained for that, the Americans did not agreed, so all the A/c units had to be removed. 

So for now, F-16s only at Shahbaz.

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## SQ8

Last Hope said:


> The F-16s that arrive after MLU from Turkey and US will be stationed at PAF Base Shahbaz. They will stay there until the pilot conversion training is over, and then they will move to their respected Squadrons/Bases. So yes, all PAF F-16s will be shifted to PAF Base Shahbaz but for a short time.
> 
> And JF-17 Block II's second squadron will be homed at *PAF Base Shahbaz, it will replace the Mirage*.



there are no more mirages at Shahbaz.. All have been shifted to other bases.

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## Last Hope

TaimiKhan said:


> For next 5-10 years JF-17s going to Shahbaz is a very hard thing to happen as the Americans have specifically stated that no Chinese stuff at Shahbaz so that no Chinese are seen on the base. Shahbaz AB had some Chinese air conditioning unit installed at specific locations, which were removed also as the Americans were uncomfortable with the Chinese stuff as it would have required Chinese techs coming for repairing or normals visits, even though PAF told them that we have our own technicians trained for that, the Americans did not agreed, so all the A/c units had to be removed.
> 
> So for now, F-16s only at Shahbaz.



JF-17s are PAF assets and not Chinese assets. 
The fifth squadron of JF-17 is expected to be raised at PAF Base Shahbaz. I think we must wait, only time will tell us.

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## SQ8

Last Hope said:


> JF-17s are PAF assets and not Chinese assets.
> The fifth squadron of JF-17 is expected to be raised at PAF Base Shahbaz. I think we must wait, only time will tell us.



I think this may be a confusion with Shorkot..a.k.a Rafiqui.. 
PAF officers rarely call that base Rafiqui.. usually its referred to as Shorkot.


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## Imran Khan

Last Hope said:


> JF-17s are PAF assets and not Chinese assets.
> The fifth squadron of JF-17 is expected to be raised at PAF Base Shahbaz. I think we must wait, only time will tell us.




are you really unaware of Peace Drive ?


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## Darth Vader

TX Defence update : PAF F-16 Block 52+ spotted with CFTs (Conformal fuel tanks),BVR AMRAAM AIM-120 C5,GBU-38 500 Lbs and JHMDS (Joint helmet mounted display system)

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## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> what does green helmet signify?


 


Windjammer said:


> Sir, in an international exercise, a little bit of patriotism always gives a boost.

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## Bratva

Last Hope said:


> JF-17s are PAF assets and not Chinese assets.
> The fifth squadron of JF-17 is expected to be raised at PAF Base Shahbaz. I think we must wait, only time will tell us.


 
if JF-17 is PAF assest than why chinese technicians regularly visit PAF kamra? And when more advance block 2 comes than chinese technician visits will increase too. Sometimes you ignore certain things despite knowing them i dont why.


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## Last Hope

mafiya said:


> if JF-17 is PAF assest than why chinese technicians regularly visit PAF kamra? And when more advance block 2 comes than chinese technician visits will increase too. Sometimes you ignore certain things despite knowing them i dont why.



JF-17 is a PAF asset. The production is joint. You cannot say that the Block 52+ we bought are American asset not PAF asset because they were produced by Lockheed Martin or because USAF technicians come for routine evaluation.

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## Bratva

Last Hope said:


> JF-17 is a PAF asset. The production is joint. You cannot say that the Block 52+ we bought are American asset not PAF asset because they were produced by Lockheed Martin or because USAF technicians come for routine evaluation.



Hence chinese presence is not tolerated and as TAIMI pointed out even chinese AC is not acceptable to americans,,, no chinese origin PAF asset will be deployed on Shahbaz airbase until and unless American stop using that base for logistics purposes or chinese are kept as far from From F-16's as possible which means no Shahbaz.


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## Imran Khan

mafiya said:


> Hence chinese presence is not tolerated and as TAIMI pointed out even chinese AC is not acceptable to americans,,, no chinese origin PAF asset will be deployed on Shahbaz airbase until and unless American stop using that base for logistics purposes or chinese are kept as far from From F-16's as possible which means no Shahbaz.



well guys its not the issue now its only a base we have many many big and well bases we will keep JFT at many places and just leave shahbaz for block-52 and MLU its clear once for ever now .we have more 10 major air bases then why we just fight over shahbaz ?



shahzadasweet said:


> TX Defence update : PAF F-16 Block 52+ spotted with CFTs (Conformal fuel tanks),BVR AMRAAM AIM-120 C5,GBU-38 500 Lbs and JHMDS (Joint helmet mounted display system)



its old story dear i will never buy it

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## hatf IX

Imran Khan said:


> well guys its not the issue now its only a base we have many many big and well bases we will keep JFT at many places and just leave shahbaz for block-52 and MLU its clear once for ever now .we have more 10 major air bases then why we just fight over shahbaz ?



if all F-16 are on the same base. . . . . . . . i think its easy target . . . . . .. . . . . . and enemy can destroy just in one go . . . . think it . . . .

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## Abingdonboy

shahzadasweet said:


> TX Defence update : PAF F-16 Block 52+ spotted with CFTs (Conformal fuel tanks),BVR AMRAAM AIM-120 C5,GBU-38 500 Lbs and JHMDS (Joint helmet mounted display system)


I'm pretty sure it's called JHMCS (Joint Helmet-Mounted _Cueing _System)-

Helmet-mounted display - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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## Imran Khan

hatf IX said:


> if all F-16 are on the same base i think its easy target and enemy can destroy just in one go . . . . think it . . . .



they will sure go left right at time of war as we seen them before at high times moved to skardu mushaf faisal and others but in peace time they will be on two places mushaf and shahbaz .MLU will be free to go left right even peace time but the issue is with only BLOCK-52 at peace times they have to be at shahbaz .


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## Donatello

Imran Khan said:


> they will sure go left right at time of war as we seen them before at high times moved to skardu mushaf faisal and others but in peace time they will be on two places mushaf and shahbaz .MLU will be free to go left right even peace time but the issue is with *only BLOCK-52 at peace times they have to be at shahbaz* .



....no...the Block 52s don't "have" to be at Shahbaz.....they can be at any base, as long as Chinese technicians wouldn't have access to them. As many of PAF bases have Chinese infrastructure/access, it would have made it difficult to place BLK 52s there. Plus, as Americans left Shahbaz, PAF decided to make it a full airbase, as Sindh hardly has any major airbases, and in times of war, aircraft from Shahbaz can be vectored both east and west in almost equal time.


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## Imran Khan

Donatello said:


> ....no...the Block 52s don't "have" to be at Shahbaz.....they can be at any base, as long as Chinese technicians wouldn't have access to them. As many of PAF bases have Chinese infrastructure/access, it would have made it difficult to place BLK 52s there. Plus, as Americans left Shahbaz, PAF decided to make it a full airbase, as Sindh hardly has any major airbases, and in times of war, aircraft from Shahbaz can be vectored both east and west in almost equal time.



ohh man why should we move them in first place? its not only planes but many other things also be moved to weapons equipments ground crew and so much they are doing best at shahbaz . i agree with you as we seen flood times we move them to Samungli. or they were laned at Samungli before arrived to shahbaz . let these 18 stay at shahbaz man whats the issue here ? we agree in terms of US because we got so many nice things with these 18 like sniper pods DB-110 amraams JHMS GBUs JDAMs APG-68(V)9 radars CFTs new mavricks and USA take care of these items to fall in chines hands as they know well our relations with china .


*New F-16 Block 52s Moved to Samungli Air Base Near Quetta*


Three of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF)&#8217;s newest acquisitions Block 52 F-16 jet fighters &#8211; previously stationed at the Shahbaz airbase near Jacobabad &#8211; have been moved to the Samungli airbase near Quetta, sources told The Express Tribune on Saturday. The Shahbaz base was under the threat of being flooded in August. The exact date on which the jets were flown to Quetta could not be ascertained.However, an official said that the jets will be moved back to the Shahbaz airbase as soon the flood situation improves.The report said that some members of the technical support team from the Lockheed Martin (the aircraft manufacturer and other officials of the US Air Force, had left the Shahbaz airbase for Quetta, but other members are still there.

Over 22 water lifting pumps are dumping back the floodwaters from the canal back into the Indus River. The base is safe and secure because of this extraordinary safety plan, built with the financial and technical assistance of the US at a cost of millions of dollars.The fleet of F-16 aircraft arrived in June at the newly-upgraded base, which is under the PAF&#8217;s Southern Air Command. Earlier, the base, was being used as a Forward Operating Base by the PAF, but very recently it has been upgraded to house the new F-16 aircraft by installing equipment and radar system.
Read More


New F-16s moved to air base near Quetta &#8211; The Express Tribune

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## Donatello

Imran Khan said:


> ohh man why should we move them in first place? its not only planes but many other things also be moved to weapons equipments ground crew and so much they are doing best at shahbaz . i agree with you as we seen flood times we move them to Samungli. or they were laned at Samungli before arrived to shahbaz . let these 18 stay at shahbaz man whats the issue here ? we agree in terms of US because we got so many nice things with these 18 like sniper pods DB-110 amraams JHMS GBUs JDAMs APG-68(V)9 radars CFTs new mavricks and USA take care of these items to fall in chines hands as they know well our relations with china .
> 
> 
> *New F-16 Block 52s Moved to Samungli Air Base Near Quetta*
> 
> 
> Three of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF)&#8217;s newest acquisitions Block 52 F-16 jet fighters &#8211; previously stationed at the Shahbaz airbase near Jacobabad &#8211; have been moved to the Samungli airbase near Quetta, sources told The Express Tribune on Saturday. The Shahbaz base was under the threat of being flooded in August. The exact date on which the jets were flown to Quetta could not be ascertained.However, an official said that the jets will be moved back to the Shahbaz airbase as soon the flood situation improves.The report said that some members of the technical support team from the Lockheed Martin (the aircraft manufacturer and other officials of the US Air Force, had left the Shahbaz airbase for Quetta, but other members are still there.
> 
> Over 22 water lifting pumps are dumping back the floodwaters from the canal back into the Indus River. The base is safe and secure because of this extraordinary safety plan, built with the financial and technical assistance of the US at a cost of millions of dollars.The fleet of F-16 aircraft arrived in June at the newly-upgraded base, which is under the PAF&#8217;s Southern Air Command. Earlier, the base, was being used as a Forward Operating Base by the PAF, but very recently it has been upgraded to house the new F-16 aircraft by installing equipment and radar system.
> Read More
> 
> 
> New F-16s moved to air base near Quetta &#8211; The Express Tribune



Imran Saheb......what i said...you just worded it differently....kya baat hai apki!

Too much free time?


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## Imran Khan

Donatello said:


> Imran Saheb......what i said...you just worded it differently....kya baat hai apki!
> 
> Too much free time?




did i worded it wrong ? abut time yes i have these days .


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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day

&#8220;Never fly the 'A' model of anything.&#8221;  
-- Layton A. Bennett*

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## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> *Quote of the Day
> 
> &#8220;Never fly the 'A' model of anything.&#8221;
> -- Layton A. Bennett*


*
Fly the 'C' *

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## araz

Last Hope said:


> *
> Fly the 'C' *



the goss is that the guys prefer the MLUed As better than the Cs. 
araz


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## regular

araz said:


> the goss is that the guys prefer the MLUed As better than the Cs.
> araz


I like D's better than C's or the E's are the best ones....


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## soul hacker

araz said:


> the goss is that the guys prefer the MLUed As better than the Cs.
> araz



why the prefer mlu?


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## soul hacker

chek out our baby @0:18 and 2:00

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## Last Hope



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## araz

soul hacker said:


> why the prefer mlu?


The agility of As associated with the radar and other goodies similar to Cs. The best of both worlds!!
Araz

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## Windjammer

araz said:


> The agility of As associated with the radar and other goodies similar to Cs. The best of both worlds!!
> Araz



Also the cost effectiveness, upgrading an A model to C standard is better on pocket than purchasing the latter. Also the experience gained becomes valuable for future prospects.


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Also the cost effectiveness, upgrading an A model to C standard is better on pocket than purchasing the latter. Also the experience gained becomes valuable for future prospects.



I would say Yes and No.
Upgrading an A to C offers a very cost effective way to turn a somewhat dated aircraft into a potent machine. But the C models offer more than just avionics .. They have some redesign built into them that allows for the accomodation of some avionics internally.
For eg.. the Pakistani Block -52's will be carrying the ITT Jammer internally whilst the AM's will have to varry it in a pod.
The Block-52's offer greater range, built in modular upgrade.. etc

However.. this does not take away the effectiveness of the MLU at all. 
It has given Pakistan some 60 VERY capable 4++ gen aircraft.

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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> I would say Yes and No.
> Upgrading an A to C offers a very cost effective way to turn a somewhat dated aircraft into a potent machine. But the C models offer more than just avionics .. They have some redesign built into them that allows for the accomodation of some avionics internally.
> For eg.. the Pakistani Block -52's will be carrying the ITT Jammer internally whilst the AM's will have to varry it in a pod.
> The Block-52's offer greater range, built in modular upgrade.. etc
> 
> However.. this does not take away the effectiveness of the MLU at all.
> It has given Pakistan some 60 VERY capable 4++ gen aircraft.



And obviously the D model with raised spine filled with hi-tech gadgets is a different ball game.

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## regular

I guess the last version of F-16V is the best one offered to date by the Lockheed martin.If we get some of them will be the best for the PAF........
http://www.gizmag.com/lockheed-martin-f-16v/21482/


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## Last Hope

regular said:


> I guess the last version of F-16V is the best one offered to date by the Lockheed martin.If we get some of them will be the best for the PAF........
> Lockheed Martin unveils latest version of F-16 Fighting Falcon


No it will be more damage than beneficial. The price per unit is higher than Block 52+ and the operational, maintenance costs are going to be high too. Pilot re-training would be needed and PAF has only two L-3 simulators. 

This is also a US aircraft and it is better if we do not have all of our ADA using US hardware. Anyways, PAF has option of acquiring more F-16s, Block 52+, the option is still valid and open for 37 more F-16s.


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## Najam Khan

Oscar said:


> I would say Yes and No.
> Upgrading an A to C offers a very cost effective way to turn a somewhat dated aircraft into a potent machine. But the C models offer more than just avionics .. They have some redesign built into them that allows for the accomodation of some avionics internally.
> For eg..* the Pakistani Block -52's will be carrying the ITT Jammer internally whilst the AM's will have to varry it in a pod.
> The Block-52's offer greater range, built in modular upgrade.. etc*
> 
> However.. this does not take away the effectiveness of the MLU at all.
> It has given Pakistan some 60 VERY capable 4++ gen aircraft.



We bought AN/ALQ-211 V9 (pods ), whereas v4 (internal jammer) was integrated inside our Block52s. PAF bought 60 -213 systems under F-16A/B MLU modification kits purchase.

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## regular

Last Hope said:


> No it will be more damage than beneficial. The price per unit is higher than Block 52+ and the operational, maintenance costs are going to be high too. Pilot re-training would be needed and PAF has only two L-3 simulators.
> 
> This is also a US aircraft and it is better if we do not have all of our ADA using US hardware. Anyways, PAF has option of acquiring more F-16s, Block 52+, the option is still valid and open for 37 more F-16s.


I guess PAF don't need to go for outdated versions of F-16's Block 52++....I guess JF-17block II are far better than them......

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## Shadow_Hunter

regular said:


> I guess PAF don't need to go for outdated versions of F-16's Block 52++....I guess JF-17block II are far better than them......



F16-Blk52 is better even than J10B (as claimed by your fatman). Hence JF17 blk2 will come anywhere close to it. Blk 3 may be comparable. But I would put F16 Blk52 much ahead than JF17 Blk 2


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## araz

regular said:


> I guess PAF don't need to go for outdated versions of F-16's Block 52++....I guess JF-17block II are far better than them......


Jingoism without concrete evidence is a sure sign of failure. Dont fall into that trap. wait till we hear more and have more info on bl2before makinga comparative analysis. F16 is a mature and battle tested platform, it is heavier and bigger and has longer range. You cant compare it to an unknownentity which is what bl.2 is as of now.
Araz

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## SameeullahAther

Sq. Ldr Omair Najmi and Wng Cdr. Ghazanfar Latif.

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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON



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## Safriz

araz said:


> Jingoism without concrete evidence is a sure sign of failure. Dont fall into that trap. wait till we hear more and have more info on bl2before makinga comparative analysis. F16 is a mature and battle tested platform, it is heavier and bigger and has longer range. You cant compare it to an unknownentity which is what bl.2 is as of now.
> Araz


 
Being embargo prone and restrictions on use , outweighs its superiority over jf-17


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## SameeullahAther

Sorry for the broken link here's the video from Red Flag '10,Squadron no.9 Griffins F-16s at RF '10.

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## Pak47

Shadow_Hunter said:


> F16-Blk52 is better even than J10B (as claimed by your fatman). Hence JF17 blk2 will come anywhere close to it. Blk 3 may be comparable. But I would put F16 Blk52 much ahead than JF17 Blk 2



Right.... and MKI Is the best in the world right?


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## araz

Safriz said:


> Being embargo prone and restrictions on use , outweighs its superiority over jf-17


 
Yara
put your hand to your heart and tell me whether a war in the indo pak theatre would last long enough for the embargo to be effective. We can basically fodget fighting on the western front.
Araz

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## Windjammer



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## fatman17

*Pakistan wants F-16s to go for the kill*

Shaiq Hussain

pakistantoday.com.pk.


ISLAMABAD - Pakistan is seeking precision-guided munitions (PGMs) from the United States for its F-16 fighter jets to target the hideouts of al Qaeda and Taliban militants in the Tribal Areas, which it believes could replace the US drones program effectively.
The PGMs intend to precisely hit a specific target and Pakistani security circles believe that its fighter planes, equipped with them, could accurately target the militants in North and South Waziristan as well as the rest of tribal regions.

However, US officials are of the view that Pakistani fighter jets, even if equipped with PGMs or smart weapons, could not be an effective alternative to its ongoing drone strikes in the Tribal Areas, where they say scores of al Qaeda leaders, including some top militants, have been killed in these assaults.

Pakistan and the United States had been at odds for months until Islamabad reopened NATO supplies to Afghanistan. The talks on Pakistani F-16s being an alternative to drones programme between Islamabad and Washington were also held before the closure of NATO supplies and have resumed after a lull of some months. ISI Director General Gen Zaheerul Islam, who reportedly meets CIA Chief General David Petraeus on August 2, will discuss this issue at length with him at the CIA headquarters in Virginia.
&#8220;Islamabad and Washington have been engaged in hectic consultations on possible agreement over the drone strikes in the tribal regions but so far with no success. Some plans have been discussed and the idea of F-16s equipped with smart weapons is one of them,&#8221; said a diplomatic source, seeking anonymity.

He said despite the US reluctance, Pakistan believed that once implemented, the plan of better equipped F-16s could phase out the US drone programme that would be also of great advantage to Washington as it would help in lowering of the rising anti-American sentiments in the country. Another diplomatic source, who is also privy to the ongoing Pakistan-US consultations on counter-terrorism cooperation, said apart from drone strikes, Islamabad was also discussing the increased border coordination between Pakistani, American and Afghan forces with the United States to avert a &#8216;Salala attack&#8217; like incident in future and General Zaheer&#8217;s visit to Washington was part of that dialogue.

He said the US also wanted the return of some of its military personnel to Pakistan for better border coordination and counter-terrorism cooperation, especially the monitoring of anti-terror activities in the border regions. These US military personnel were sent back by Islamabad last year after the relations with Washington became strained. &#8220;The ISI chief will also discuss in detail the vital issue of return of some US military personnel to Pakistan with the CIA director and other American officials 
during his visit to the US,&#8221; he said.

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## m hayat khan

salam...............can u tell me which one is better?
aerounotical engg: or GD(P)?PLZ


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## Liquidmetal

How did Pakistan do at Red Flag? I have not heard a thing about this exercise other than some photographs and an odd video. TIA.


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## fatman17

m hayat khan said:


> salam...............can u tell me which one is better?
> aerounotical engg: or GD(P)?PLZ



gdp is flying which is exciting career - aeronautical engg is also exciting in the sense that it is cutting edge technology at least for pakistan industry.



Liquidmetal said:


> How did Pakistan do at Red Flag? I have not heard a thing about this exercise other than some photographs and an odd video. TIA.



there are many articles posted on this - pl search them!

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## Last Hope

Windjammer said:


>








Red Flag 10. Before refueling mission.

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## soul hacker

A three ship F-16 formation equipped with AIM-9M sidewinder, Sniper pod and AMD pod.

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## Xracer

Can Any one Kindly Tell Me how much an F16 b52 Costs Pakistan and how Much an Su30 MKI costs India.Thank


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## ziaulislam

Xracer said:


> Can Any one Kindly Tell Me how much an F16 b52 Costs Pakistan and how Much an Su30 MKI costs India.Thank


Exact pricing is difficult coz it depend upon package but F-16 costs around 90 million while su 30 around 50 million( indian version)

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## Last Hope

ziaulislam said:


> Exact pricing is difficult coz it depend upon package but F-16 costs around 90 million while su 30 around 50 million( indian version)


 


Xracer said:


> Can Any one Kindly Tell Me how much an F16 b52 Costs Pakistan and how Much an Su30 MKI costs India.Thank



We got 18 Block 52+ for $1.8 Billion. $45 Million per unit.

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## razgriz19

ziaulislam said:


> Exact pricing is difficult coz it depend upon package but F-16 costs around 90 million while su 30 around 50 million( indian version)



F-16 cost about $60 million max. 
Super Hornet costs about $90-100 million.

And MKI costs a lot more as Russia almost doubled the price of Su-30.

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## Xracer

ziaulislam said:


> Exact pricing is difficult coz it depend upon package but F-16 costs around 90 million while su 30 around 50 million( indian version)


Thanks ziaulislam,Last Hope and razgriz19 But my Point is:
We have A 90 million Plane F16 block52 and indian members still say their 50 Million Su30 Mki is Alot Better than f16 WTF are they Insane


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## alibaz

[SUB][/SUB]


Xracer said:


> Thanks ziaulislam,Last Hope and razgriz19 But my Point is:
> We have A 90 million Plane F16 block52 and indian members still say their 50 Million Su30 Mki is Alot Better than f16 WTF are they Insane



Brother I don't know about the prices of blk 52+s and MKIs but by your definition 15 million JF should be nothing more than a piece of trash.
I think packages you buy, political, economic state and stakes of a country also determines the end cost. I think India has integrated many systems in MKI from France, Israel, may be something indigenous and few other sources . Many pieces of MKI will be assembled in India under licence which definitely contributes to reduction of price.


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## Xracer

alibaz said:


> [SUB][/SUB]
> 
> Brother I don't know about the prices of blk 52+s and MKIs but by your definition 15 million JF should be nothing more than a piece of trash.


No No Really Look at This:
Program cost US$500 million
Unit cost Block 1: US$15&#8211;20 million (estimated)
Block 2: US$20&#8211;25 million. as of wikipedia.CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But as the Official at Dubai air Show Said.
3 JF-17 Thunders for a price of a F-16: Sale at Dubai Air Show.
Aviation analysts expect the aircraft, currenlty priced at $25-30 million, (which is currently in service means Block 1) to be focused on emerging markets in Asia and Africa. Mukhtar said that
&#8220;Going to the (European) market is not very easy because you are cutting the profits of some other people.&#8221;

Pakistan is producing the first version of the JF-17 Hunders, however research on the next three generations is already in place. Next year the next block of planes will be rolling off the Kamra factory.
3 JF-17 Thunders for a price of a F-16: Sale at Dubai Air Show | Pakistan Patriot

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## Viper0011.

Xracer said:


> No No Really Look at This:
> Program cost US$500 million
> Unit cost Block 1: US$15&#8211;20 million (estimated)
> Block 2: US$20&#8211;25 million. as of wikipedia.CAC/PAC JF-17 Thunder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> But as the Official at Dubai air Show Said.
> 3 JF-17 Thunders for a price of a F-16: Sale at Dubai Air Show.
> Aviation analysts expect the aircraft, currenlty priced at $25-30 million, (which is currently in service means Block 1) to be focused on emerging markets in Asia and Africa. Mukhtar said that
> &#8220;Going to the (European) market is not very easy because you are cutting the profits of some other people.&#8221;
> 
> Pakistan is producing the first version of the JF-17 Hunders, however research on the next three generations is already in place. Next year the next block of planes will be rolling off the Kamra factory.
> 3 JF-17 Thunders for a price of a F-16: Sale at Dubai Air Show | Pakistan Patriot


 
Average contractor rates that LM pays to its contractors is around $ 80 - 250 an hour (depends on the specialty) plus there is a lot of money that goes to other small integration companies. Labor cost is very expensive in the defense industry and overall in the US. So if you take an $ 80 an hour contractor and turn it into $ 10 an hour (still good money in Pakistan, India or China's case), you can slash those labor costs in dollar to the local currency. Still paying good money in their own currencies, you can cut the development costs by 40 - 60%. That's why JFT is so cheap as the labor component is not in dollars.
In other words, to integrate avionics etc in the US or UK or France, the costs are very high. Same avionics can be integrated in SE Asia for 40% of the cost (as long as there is trained labor available). So JFT @ 15 - 20 million is not just a cheap crappy plane. It offers capability comparable to $ 40 million dollar planes but the cost to built it and test it is much cheaper.

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## alibaz

orangzaib said:


> Average contractor rates that LM pays to its contractors is around $ 80 - 250 an hour (depends on the specialty) plus there is a lot of money that goes to other small integration companies. Labor cost is very expensive in the defense industry and overall in the US. So if you take an $ 80 an hour contractor and turn it into $ 10 an hour (still good money in Pakistan, India or China's case), you can slash those labor costs in dollar to the local currency. Still paying good money in their own currencies, you can cut the development costs by 40 - 60%. That's why JFT is so cheap as the labor component is in dollars.
> In other words, to integrate avionics etc in the US or UK or France, the costs are very high. Same avionics can be integrated in SE Asia for 40% of the cost (as long as there is trained labor available). So JFT @ 15 - 20 million is not just a cheap crappy plane. It offers capability comparable to $ 40 million dollar planes but the cost to built it and test it is much cheaper.



Hence proved that price is not the only litmus test. A $15-20 million can be 70 to 80% of a blk 52+.


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## Xracer

orangzaib said:


> Average contractor rates that LM pays to its contractors is around $ 80 - 250 an hour (depends on the specialty) plus there is a lot of money that goes to other small integration companies. Labor cost is very expensive in the defense industry and overall in the US. So if you take an $ 80 an hour contractor and turn it into $ 10 an hour (still good money in Pakistan, India or China's case), you can slash those labor costs in dollar to the local currency. Still paying good money in their own currencies, you can cut the development costs by 40 - 60%. That's why JFT is so cheap as the labor component is not in dollars.
> In other words, to integrate avionics etc in the US or UK or France, the costs are very high. Same avionics can be integrated in SE Asia for 40% of the cost (as long as there is trained labor available). So JFT @ 15 - 20 million is not just a cheap crappy plane. It offers capability comparable to $ 40 million dollar planes but the cost to built it and test it is much cheaper.





alibaz said:


> Hence proved that price is not the only litmus test. A $15-20 million can be 70 to 80% of a blk 52+.


Yes Agreed With Both You.it is a 40 million Plane but due to Cheap labor and our own home made equipment it is cost effective.its like that China Product is cheaper than japan or Us not for bad or Cheap Quality but for Cheaper Labor.


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## Windjammer



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## Jango

Windjammer said:


>



Smile for the camera!!!

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## mylovepakistan

salute,





RED FLAG 2010,

going to have some drink..

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## Imran Khan



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## ziaulislam

Last Hope said:


> We got 18 Block 52+ for $1.8 Billion. $45 Million per unit.


sir by your calculation 18 for 1.8 billion costs 100 million not 45 million...

most of f-16s deals around the world costs around 100 million...
i dont know but peopel for some unknown reason like to under quote f-16 prices..you cant even get a gripen less than 70 million...

we confuse flyout costs with actual cost(which include R&D and other taxes etc)..flyout cost may be around 50 million for f-16 but to foreign customer it would still cost around 100 million


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## Nishan_101

I think in 2002, we should only have negotiated on getting back our 28 F-16s and upgrading it in Turkey by involving our Technicians and Engineers there. More over, we can also negotiate with Venuezvela along with U.S over the purchase of 24 F-16s from there which are Block-15s and can be upgraded too in Turkey in this way we would have:
31+28+24=83 F-16s Block-15 MLU-3 being ready till 209 if they upgrade has started from 2003/2004

No need of Block52 instead invest in JF-17 facilities and production along with future development of JF-17s.


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## Patriot

Nishan_101 said:


> I think in 2002, we should only have negotiated on getting back our 28 F-16s and upgrading it in Turkey by involving our Technicians and Engineers there. More over, we can also negotiate with Venuezvela along with U.S over the purchase of 24 F-16s from there which are Block-15s and can be upgraded too in Turkey in this way we would have:
> 31+28+24=83 F-16s Block-15 MLU-3 being ready till 209 if they upgrade has started from 2003/2004
> 
> No need of Block52 instead invest in JF-17 facilities and production along with future development of JF-17s.


Honestly I've had enough of this JF-17 bullshit.If you don't have anything else to say just don't visit F-16's thread.What part of over-relying you guys dont understand?Without F-16's You would have nothing to match SU30.JF-17 does not even come close to Block 52 specs wise.Why not just attach a jet engine and two wings to a Suzuki Mehran for defense of our air space..it will be indigenous and cheap.I don't know whats wrong with you guys..We got the fking AIM120 with F-16 which pretty much gave the most lethal BVR capability to PAF.Don't think relying too much on Chinese would be a good thing.They are much more cruel businessman then Americans.

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## umair86

Patriot said:


> Honestly I've had enough of this JF-17 bullshit.If you don't have anything else to say just don't visit F-16's thread.What part of over-relying you guys dont understand?Without F-16's You would have nothing to match SU30.JF-17 does not even come close to Block 52 specs wise.Why not just attach a jet engine and two wings to a Suzuki Mehran for defense of our air space..it will be indigenous and cheap.I don't know whats wrong with you guys..We got the fking AIM120 with F-16 which pretty much gave the most lethal BVR capability to PAF.Don't think relying too much on Chinese would be a good thing.They are much more cruel businessman then Americans.



Well said we have been relying on chinese too much although they have supported us time and again but their weapon still lagging behind the west by large margin Block 52+ is superior to anything Indians have at the moment with its AMRAAM capability only issue is will it be useful in combat. JF-17 is a workhorse type of aircraft which can absorb losses in the event of war as you can throw many of them in combat at a given time it still lags and won't be competing against F-16 in PAF its a different class fighter. If it gets modern state of the art western avionics than it will be competitive. Even the Indian put western avionics in MKI to make it competitive. We are just over confident on JF-17 which hasn't got BVR IOC yet after 4 years of service.


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## IceCold

Patriot said:


> Honestly I've had enough of this JF-17 bullshit.If you don't have anything else to say just don't visit F-16's thread.What part of over-relying you guys dont understand?Without F-16's You would have nothing to match SU30.JF-17 does not even come close to Block 52 specs wise.Why not just attach a jet engine and two wings to a Suzuki Mehran for defense of our air space..it will be indigenous and cheap.I don't know whats wrong with you guys..We got the fking AIM120 with F-16 which pretty much gave the most lethal BVR capability to PAF.Don't think relying too much on Chinese would be a good thing.They are much more cruel businessman then Americans.



The mistake we made while dealing with the americans was to relied too much on them. We are repeating the same mistake with China. People tend to forget that there is no brotherhood crap, its pure business and strategic interest. China has both in Pakistan and so they will continue to support us but that does not mean that we become so dependent upon them that once of if they pull the plug we fall on our faces.

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## Viper0011.

umair86 said:


> Well said we have been relying on chinese too much although they have supported us time and again but their weapon still lagging behind the west by large margin Block 52+ is superior to anything Indians have at the moment with its AMRAAM capability only issue is will it be useful in combat. JF-17 is a workhorse type of aircraft which can absorb losses in the event of war as you can throw many of them in combat at a given time it still lags and won't be competing against F-16 in PAF its a different class fighter. If it gets modern state of the art western avionics than it will be competitive. Even the Indian put western avionics in MKI to make it competitive. We are just over confident on JF-17 which hasn't got BVR IOC yet after 4 years of service.


 
Both the above posts have real flawed logic. Indigenous is the way to go for a country like Pakistan. You guys never like your own stuff and that's why you guys are always separated nationally. Look at Indians, they hate each others states and backgrounds but to the world, they ALL become ONE INDIA. JFT will provide a valuable option and hedge against the west in case others think of sanctions. They'll lose more control over Pakistan by doing so as Pakistan can say good bye and increase the quantity of what they are building. It may not be a F-22 but it's decent enough to defend Pakistan's sky.....vs. top of the line jets that look pretty on tarmac and can't fly due to spares or can't be upgraded!

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## Xracer

ziaulislam said:


> sir by your calculation 18 for 1.8 billion costs 100 million not 45 million...
> 
> most of f-16s deals around the world costs around 100 million...
> i dont know but peopel for some unknown reason like to under quote f-16 prices..you cant even get a gripen less than 70 million...
> 
> we confuse flyout costs with actual cost(which include R&D and other taxes etc)..flyout cost may be around 50 million for f-16 but to foreign customer it would still cost around 100 million


If F16 Cost 100 Million why fuk we dont buy F15 or F 18 Super Hornet (US$66.9 million (2012 flyaway cost) while f16 Flyaway Cost is around 50 Million) or some other aircrafft


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## razgriz19

Xracer said:


> If F16 Cost 100 Million why fuk we dont buy F15 or F 18 Super Hornet (US$66.9 million (2012 flyaway cost) while f16 Flyaway Cost is around 50 Million) or some other aircrafft



F-16 is the cheaper of three.
Just because the wiki says the flyaway cost for F-18 and F-15 are this and that, It does not mean that its entirely true.
When you buy an aircraft, you buy a whole new infrastructure, maintenance parts, crew training, pilot training, etc.
F-16s did NOT cost us more than the hornet or the eagle.



ziaulislam said:


> sir by your calculation 18 for 1.8 billion costs 100 million not 45 million...
> 
> most of f-16s deals around the world costs around 100 million...
> i dont know but peopel for some unknown reason like to under quote f-16 prices..you cant even get a gripen less than 70 million...
> 
> we confuse flyout costs with actual cost(which include R&D and other taxes etc)..flyout cost may be around 50 million for f-16 but to foreign customer it would still cost around 100 million



these things (listed below) were ALSO part of that $1.8 billion dollar deal.

The package for Pakistan&#8217;s new F-16s also includes:

"7 spare F100-PW-229 EEP or F110-GE-129 IPE engines (F100-PW-229 EEP selected)
7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets
18 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
18 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II
18 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircraft&#8217;s sides to give them extra range
18 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; see tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems
18 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems
18 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
18 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare (ALQ-211 AIDEW) Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (picked); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM
1 Unit Level Trainer
Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability."

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## alimobin memon

We aren't relying as much as u think on china ... Jfthunder "was" a simple replacement and "now" it is more than even air force official expected ... Without F16 we still are the same , when in 15 million dollar jf17 has 85% same capabilities as blk52+ , most people neglect the avionics of jf17 , the block 52+ so far only provided the SAR capability to PAF and BVR which we didn't have as before (but we already were expecting jf17 to PAF in months ) until jf17 arrived yes jf17 has it , when a plane is designed it is expensive if it's development cost is too much USA spends billions of dollars on SAR and EW , missile technology they have to subsequently R&D them so the cost of f16 is definitely going to very HIGH. While'st Jf17 is an development from f16 and existing designs which saved time and costs for example initial the jf17 has conventional intake than later PAF and china came to know that DSI is cheaper and stealthier then just changed it with little modifications. The Radar was already present in j10 , Missile's with All aspect were already present that is why jf17 is cheaper. The Problem with Pakistani's is they still believe that China products suck , but one must realise almost Whole world for example AMD , Intel , Nvidia, Nokia there nano parts are made by the chinese industries. pakistani are scared of the label "Made in China" dont get ur self so fooled .
I have personnel's from army and airforce who have clearly admit have new hope that pakistan is getting back to a good technology and reliable friend. It is not like China is doing for free we have given them access to karakorum highway and Gwadar port which is far too important for chinese economy. Fact is Both the sides are relying.

So let me come to point that F16 is awesome but jf17 is awesome too . and we can live without f16 but problem is we have to take time to master the skills on jf17 which is obvious when u induct new plane.

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## MastanKhan

alimobin memon said:


> We aren't relying as much as u think on china ... Jfthunder "was" a simple replacement and "now" it is more than even air force official expected ... Without F16 we still are the same , when in 15 million dollar jf17 has 85% same capabilities as blk52+ , most people neglect the avionics of jf17 , the block 52+ so far only provided the SAR capability to PAF and BVR which we didn't have as before (but we already were expecting jf17 to PAF in months ) until jf17 arrived yes jf17 has it , when a plane is designed it is expensive if it's development cost is too much USA spends billions of dollars on SAR and EW , missile technology they have to subsequently R&D them so the cost of f16 is definitely going to very HIGH. While'st Jf17 is an development from f16 and existing designs which saved time and costs for example initial the jf17 has conventional intake than later PAF and china came to know that DSI is cheaper and stealthier then just changed it with little modifications. The Radar was already present in j10 , Missile's with All aspect were already present that is why jf17 is cheaper. The Problem with Pakistani's is they still believe that China products suck , but one must realise almost Whole world for example AMD , Intel , Nvidia, Nokia there nano parts are made by the chinese industries. pakistani are scared of the label "Made in China" dont get ur self so fooled .
> I have personnel's from army and airforce who have clearly admit have new hope that pakistan is getting back to a good technology and reliable friend. It is not like China is doing for free we have given them access to karakorum highway and Gwadar port which is far too important for chinese economy. Fact is Both the sides are relying.
> 
> So let me come to point that F16 is awesome but jf17 is awesome too . and we can live without f16 but problem is we have to take time to master the skills on jf17 which is obvious when u induct new plane.



Sir,

Seems like there is error in your post----the 85% capability is in comparison to the first BLK of F16's we got and not the BLK52.


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## Windjammer

*Going Ballistic *










*
Flaming Arrow*

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## Nishan_101

IceCold said:


> The mistake we made while dealing with the americans was to relied too much on them. We are repeating the same mistake with China. People tend to forget that there is no brotherhood crap, its pure business and strategic interest. China has both in Pakistan and so they will continue to support us but that does not mean that we become so dependent upon them that once of if they pull the plug we fall on our faces.


 
Yeah! thanks for opening my eyes. But if this is the situation then moving towards EF-2000 in JV like for 150 of them wasn't a bad idea?in 1998


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## Windjammer



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## Imran Khan



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## alimobin memon

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Seems like there is error in your post----the 85% capability is in comparison to the first BLK of F16's we got and not the BLK52.



Lolx u are wrong


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## hatf IX

alimobin memon said:


> Lolx u are wrong


 

MAN you have thrown a stone in BEE COMB


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## Imran Khan

hatf IX said:


> MAN you have thrown a stone in BEE COMB



why is there holy cow type things here ?

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## alimobin memon

hatf IX said:


> MAN you have thrown a stone in BEE COMB



I am sorry it wasn't me


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## umair86

orangzaib said:


> Both the above posts have real flawed logic. Indigenous is the way to go for a country like Pakistan. You guys never like your own stuff and that's why you guys are always separated nationally. Look at Indians, they hate each others states and backgrounds but to the world, they ALL become ONE INDIA. JFT will provide a valuable option and hedge against the west in case others think of sanctions. They'll lose more control over Pakistan by doing so as Pakistan can say good bye and increase the quantity of what they are building. It may not be a F-22 but it's decent enough to defend Pakistan's sky.....vs. top of the line jets that look pretty on tarmac and can't fly due to spares or can't be upgraded!



In current circumstances Indigenous products have a long way to go our enemy is buying all best hi tech stuff around the world JF-17 is good but it can't take on swarms of MKI, MiGs and soon Rafales. One way is that to make up number like Soviets did back in the Cold War with quantity over quality which can't afford best thing is to get what we can from the West invest in home projects until we get sufficient in defense field to compete with India and have resources.


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## Windjammer



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## SBD-3

Windjammer said:


>


Lemme Guess..........Sakardo?


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## Windjammer

hasnain0099 said:


> Lemme Guess..........Sakardo?



No dear, these are shown in Konya, Turkey participating in Anatolian Eagle 2012.

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## Windjammer

Double Post.


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## Viper0011.

umair86 said:


> In current circumstances Indigenous products have a long way to go our enemy is buying all best hi tech stuff around the world JF-17 is good but it can't take on swarms of MKI, MiGs and soon Rafales. One way is that to make up number like Soviets did back in the Cold War with quantity over quality which can't afford best thing is to get what we can from the West invest in home projects until we get sufficient in defense field to compete with India and have resources.


 
I wasn't suggesting that Pakistan shouldn't procure from the world. My post was intended for people that were openly bashing the JFT. JFT is an achievement and if it can be completed and advanced successfully, it provides a cheap alternative to 4 and 4.5 generation aircraft for Pakistan's limited area and specially in a defensive role with BVR. 
For the top tier, Pakistan should procure more jets. Ideally, start inducting a few squadrons of J-11's or F-18's if they can get them. With US moving towards JSF and pilot less supersonic naval fleet, I am reasonably sure they'll sell F-18's to Pakistan. Remember, F-18, F-15, Su-30 was really tech from a couple of decades ago (with new avionics of-course but still, tech from the 90's). In SE Asia, the tech from the 90's is still the high end tech (Su-30). Even Rafale was designed in the 90's. They've managed to put a lot of new tech in during this previous decade but compared to today's weapons system, it's still a bit 'previous' technology. Procuring F-18 and or J-11 (if these Pakistan can afford to get these) will bring a lot of punch to Pakistan's defensive capability.

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## Storm Force

> sure they'll sell F-18's to Pakistan.



After the fiasco of F16 for the last 20 years and USA sanctions, massive political issues over WOT you suggest buying F18 super hornets.


EVEN THE INDIANS rejected the TOT OF THE F18 superhornets based on constant threat of sanctions..

TODAY PAF F16 has a constant threat of ARMS SPARES embargo on F16the minute a war with india starts. CONSIDERING THE F16 is the best that PAF have that is a huge poltical/military mistake and GAMBLE that PAF have made.


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## Mani2020

Storm Force said:


> After the fiasco of F16 for the last 20 years and USA sanctions, massive political issues over WOT you suggest buying F18 super hornets.
> 
> 
> EVEN THE INDIANS rejected the TOT OF THE F18 superhornets based on constant threat of sanctions..
> 
> TODAY PAF F16 has a constant threat of ARMS SPARES embargo on F16the minute a war with india starts. CONSIDERING THE F16 is the best that PAF have that is a huge poltical/military mistake and GAMBLE that PAF have made.



Diverting to a new platform with numbers standing at just 18 would never have been feasible as PAF had existing facilities and experience with f-16s so the option was more feasible . Also the fact that the original order was reduced from 72 to 18 shows that the PAF had same thing in mind. The order of these block52s was more of an attempt to get hands on american latest weaponry and an old love for bvr missiles .
Even if they are prone to sanctions and at worse cant be used extensively during hostile environment still atleast these assets provide PAF a first hand experience with some of the game changers at the same time PAF getting its hands onto something that they never had the privilege of in the past . The know how and experience on these latest gadgets can surely help PAF to pass on the good things to thunders and the relevant equipment . On that front atleast PAF have won

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## Viper0011.

Storm Force said:


> After the fiasco of F16 for the last 20 years and USA sanctions, massive political issues over WOT you suggest buying F18 super hornets.
> 
> 
> EVEN THE INDIANS rejected the TOT OF THE F18 superhornets based on constant threat of sanctions..
> 
> TODAY PAF F16 has a constant threat of ARMS SPARES embargo on F16the minute a war with india starts. CONSIDERING THE F16 is the best that PAF have that is a huge poltical/military mistake and GAMBLE that PAF have made.


 
Welcome to the global politics. The P8I and other fancy things India's purchasing....also face the threat of sanctions when uncle Sam finds another girlfriend 
The suggestion is to acquire a 'few' squadrons, not 'in numbers' or go to J-11. SU-30's tech is already in China, if they put on that size of AESA or PESA on it, it won't be behind bars, I can assure you of that as China's already advanced itself at that level. So acquire either one, it'll give a stronger defensive punch

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## MastanKhan

Imran Khan said:


> why is there holy cow type things here ?



'Toro' would have been appropriate.

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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer



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## IceCold

Windjammer said:


>



I have a question, please ignore it if you find it too stupid.
I have rarely ever seen our fighters loaded with weapons specially air to air. All i see is those drop tanks. So my question is if PAF keeps most of its fighter jets in this position, how exactly would they then scramble to intercept an intruding plane?


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## Imran Khan

IceCold said:


> I have a question, please ignore it if you find it too stupid.
> I have rarely ever seen our fighters loaded with weapons specially air to air. All i see is those drop tanks. So my question is if PAF keeps most of its fighter jets in this position, how exactly would they then scramble to intercept an intruding plane?



those whom are for ADA scramble loaded well always sir jee . abut these birds they always be same at peace time . you may never seen them loaded without exercises or missions .for example targeting PODs maverick missiles and BGUs we seen few images ever but they are in service sir .

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## Windjammer

IceCold said:


> I have a question, please ignore it if you find it too stupid.
> I have rarely ever seen our fighters loaded with weapons specially air to air. All i see is those drop tanks. So my question is if PAF keeps most of its fighter jets in this position, how exactly would they then scramble to intercept an intruding plane?



At any time a couple of fighters are placed ready for an air defence alert, either in an HAS or on the apron. What you see here is the flight line, aircraft may be going under maintenance, system check up or even being prepared for an exercise sortie.
Below is an old image of an F-16 on ADA based in Kamra.

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## Last Hope

IceCold said:


> I have a question, please ignore it if you find it too stupid.
> I have rarely ever seen our fighters loaded with weapons specially air to air. All i see is those drop tanks. So my question is if PAF keeps most of its fighter jets in this position, how exactly would they then scramble to intercept an intruding plane?



The ones serving the ADA are hardly pictured. We have some pictures, ages old, of F-16s with yellow stripped AIM-9 x 4 in hangars.

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## Windjammer



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## bobbybabu007

It is better to renovate the F-16's under the guidance of the sole maker.... The US have time and again improved the F-16's in in its arsenal and worldwide to its optimum level. It is a good decision to give the jets to the US......


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## Fieldmarshal

bobbybabu007 said:


> It is better to renovate the F-16's under the guidance of the sole maker.... .



It is not a house that needs to be "renovated". 
The correct term is "upgrade".

Even though u indians claim to be a english speaking country but the simple fact is that the over whelming majority of u indians speak horrible english and have no grammatical sense and even worse ur choice of words is simply horrible.

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## umair86

Get over with this English debate we are not having a debate competition stick to the topic

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## Luftwaffe

Windjammer said:


> At any time a couple of fighters are placed ready for an air defence alert, either in an HAS or on the apron. What you see here is the flight line, aircraft may be going under maintenance, system check up or even being prepared for an exercise sortie.
> Below is an old image of an F-16 on ADA based in Kamra.



I used to see those good old F-6s couple of those silver color at the Runway end at Samsungli Air Base always ready.


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## Imran Khan



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## Jango

my father mentions that (way back from the 70's and 80's), when the tensions between pak-India escalate, the pilots on ADA were sitting in their cockpits with a umbrella up top, and sitting there reading magazines to kill time!


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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> my father mentions that (way back from the 70's and 80's), when the tensions between pak-India escalate, the pilots on ADA were sitting in their cockpits with a umbrella up top, and sitting there reading magazines to kill time!



With the engines running.

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## Xracer

[/QUOTE]my father mentions that (way back from the 70's and 80's), when the tensions between pak-India escalate, the pilots on ADA were sitting in their cockpits with a umbrella up top, and sitting there reading magazines to kill time![/QUOTE]



Last Hope said:


> With the engines running.



LOL Nice One LAST HOPE


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Windjammer said:


> *
> Well, here is Five of them, including the Man himself. *
> 
> 
> 2,000 Hours
> Wg.Cmd. Tariq Zia
> (Updated: 17 Feb 2009)
> | 9 sqn
> 
> 
> 2,000 Hours
> Irfan Ahmed
> (Updated: 17 Feb 2009)
> 
> 2,000 Hours
> Cdt. M. Haseeb Paracha
> (Updated: 17 Feb 2009)
> 9 sqn | 11 sqn
> 
> 
> 2,000 Hours
> Air.Cmd. Ashfaq Arain (Ret.)
> (Updated: 17 Feb 2009)
> 
> 2,000 Hours
> Wg.Cmd. Aamir Masood
> (Updated: 17 Feb 2009)
> | 9 sqn



and  is not this supposed to be a classified pilot-profile of P.a.f. which you are busy in distributing & diseminating throughout the internet at your finger-tip clickings ... ?!?


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## umair86

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n;3276280 said:


> and  is not this supposed to be a classified pilot-profile of P.a.f. which you are busy in distributing & diseminating throughout the internet at your finger-tip clickings ... ?!?



Don't be so childish it is available on f-16.net he has just copy pasted it.


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## Arsalan

An old article but still an interesting read!

*PAF F-16 DB-110 Reconnaissance Pod*


> Pakistan Air Force has placed an order worth $72 million for the DB-110 Airborne Reconnaissance Pod to improve the capabilities of its F-16 fighter jets against the terrorist groups hiding in the difficult terrain of FATA region.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Goodrich's DB-110 is designed for the intelligence gathering, surveillance and reconnaissance of the area of interest. It can capture images of the target area and transmit them through the data link to the ground stations in real time.
> 
> It is designed to meet the requirements of a reconnaissance pod capable of taking pictures of the target from long distances as well as from very close .Pictures taken by the pod can also be viewed by the pilot of the fighter jet. *It is considered as the most advanced reconnaissance pod for the F-16 Fighting Falcon.*
> 
> In electro-optical its long range optics provides focal lengths of 110 inches and in infrared it provides focal length of 55 inches.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Image displayed is taken during the day time from distance of 27.8 - 33.3 kilometers from left to right side and one can still identify the people from such a long range._

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## Arsalan

Pakistan Air Force in order to further enhance its capabilities has *started installing DB-110/RAPTOR Airborne Reconnaissance Pod (*Dated June 2010*)with night vision capability on its fighter jets.* According to military sources, PAF has enhanced its night reconnaissance capability by installing the DB-110 Airborne Reconnaissance Pod.




The DB-110 reconnaissance pod is a* digital, real-time, tactical reconnaissance system designed to capture images in day or night, using electro-optical sensor technology. *





*DB-110 is a long-range oblique sensor to provide long-range, medium range and short-range imaging systems to support standoff and penetrating missions. It can be operated autonomously, by the pod's reconnaissance management system. Imagery is viewed on the F-16's cockpit video display*, enabling the pilot to verify targets and conduct tasks such as battle damage assessment. This system allows the pilot increased flexibility over current fielded systems. *The pod can also transmit Images via data-link to the ground in real time.*






The long-range telescope provides focal lengths of 110-inches and 55- inches in the EO and IR, respectively. A beam-splitter behind that telescope separates the visible and infrared wavelength energy. Independent relay optics focus this energy onto separate visible and infrared focal planes.





The short-range optics are located on the opposite side of the long range telescope and consist of a 16-inch focal length EO and a 14-inch IR system. Each of these separate optics use the same focal planes as does the long-range system. In operation, either the long- or short-range system can be used. The roll gimbal rotates the DB-110 system 180o to point the desired optic through the aircraft window.





It is also in operation on the OP-3C aircraft flown by the Japanese Maritime Staff Office, Poland's newly procured F-16C/Ds (Peace Sky) and U.K. Royal Air Force Tornados. Saudia Arabia also have selected DB-110 airborne reconnaissance system for the Royal Saudi Air Force F-15S Modernization Program.

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## Arsalan

*PAF F-16: Goodrich DB-110 electro-optical reconnaissance pods*

*PAF dropped 10,600 bombs, 4,600 targets destroyed, flown 500 F-16 sorties with the DB-110 pod, and 650 with the Star Safire EO/IR sensor on the C-130. According to Pakistan Air Force (PAF), it has flown more than 5,500 strike sorties over the country&#8217;s troubled tribal regions since May 2008*. In a rare glimpse into Pakistan&#8217;s attempt to counter domestic terrorism from the air, Chief of PAF described some lessons learned to the Air Chiefs Conference in Dubai.The need for good airborne reconnaissance was paramount, said Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleiman. When Pakistan Army launched large-scale operations in the remote Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) in August 2008, the PAF had to rely on Google Earth imagery when planning air support missions.

However, by the time that the Army was ready to move against insurgents in the Swat Valley in May 2009, *the PAF had acquired Goodrich DB-110 electro-optical reconnaissance pods for its F-16 fighters*,* together with the same company&#8217;s ground station for imagery exploitation. Intelligence analysts could now identify terrorist training camps, ammunition dumps and command and control facilities. Some of these targets were well camouflaged, and protected by bunkers,* Air Chief Marshall Suleiman noted.

Two days before the ground offensive was launched, the PAF launched a series of interdiction missions, and followed up with close air support throughout the six-month campaign.* From the imagery collected by the PAF, the Army was also able to identify suitable landing zones for the airdrops of commandos.*

In these mountainous regions, airpower was best delivered from medium altitude by fast jets, PAF Chief was quoted as saying by AIT. When the Army turned its attention to South Waziristan in October 2009, the PAF conducted a seven-day campaign in advance. By now,* the service had added FLIR Systems Star Safire III EO/IR sensor ball to one of its C-130 transports. Army staff on board the C-130 was able to track the movement of terrorists at night, and radio maneuvering instructions to soldiers on the ground.*

*PAF has completely overhauled its tactics and techniques for conduct of irregular warfare, ACM Suleiman said. All of the squadrons were put through a training program over a four-month period*. *Laser-guided bombs have been used in 80 percent of PAF strikes, the PAF chief revealed.* Avoiding collateral damage was a primary concern, he explained, &#8220;specially since we were engaging targets within our own country. We engage isolated structures only, away from populated areas.&#8221;

More than 10,600 bombs have been dropped, and 4,600 targets destroyed, he said.* PAF has flown more than 500 F-16 sorties with the DB-110 pod, and 650 with the Star Safire EO/IR sensor on the C-130.*

ACM Suleiman said that, &#8220;we&#8217;ve broken the back of militants in FATA.&#8221; He said offensive military engagement could only accomplish &#8220;10 to 15 percent&#8221; of the task of pacifying tribal areas. The rest must be done by dialogue, winning hearts and minds through economic development of these very poor regions, he said.

In his presentation, PAF Chief did not mention Selex Galileo Falco UAV. However, Pakistan was first customer for reconnaissance drone, which carries Anglo-Italian company&#8217;s own electro-optical/ infrared sensor ball. Suleiman told AIN there had been problems with UAV&#8217;s data link, caused partly by terrain masking. &#8220;Then we put in a relay station, and started flying it higher, so now we are using it more."

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## Windjammer



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## soul hacker

nothing to do with pakistan F16 but it's awesome back seat f16

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## Jango

soul hacker said:


> nothing to do with pakistan F16 but it's awesome back seat f16



A question to the pro's, are those two yellow lights kept on during a WVR engagement or dogfight?


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## Najam Khan

nuclearpak said:


> A question to the pro's, are those two yellow lights kept on during a WVR engagement or dogfight?



No, there is cockpit light and display management panel which is used to turn on and off these lights. Glowing lights in cockpit is a very serious issue and if not managed properly it can result in an air crash as well.


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## Najam Khan

Now that is interesting. 

F-16B 85612 now has serial 86612, F-16B 82605 has serial 83605 as well (the same aircraft which shot-down IAF UAV in June2002, now serves in 11 Sqn).

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## Last Hope

Najam Khan said:


> Now that is interesting.
> 
> F-16B 85612 now has serial 86612, F-16B 82605 has serial 83605 as well (the same aircraft which shot-down IAF UAV in June2002, now serves in 11 Sqn).



Even the Block 52 F-16 D '10801' should be changed to '12801'.


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## Jango

Najam Khan said:


> No, there is cockpit light and display management panel which is used to turn on and off these lights. *Glowing lights in cockpit is a very serious issue and if not managed properly it can result in an air crash as well*.



Exactly my thought.


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## dexter

Thought I'd share something from the 'Vital Signs' era. Good to see the original line-up in this shot. This must have been 1989-90 by my estimate. - Rohail Hyatt

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## Najam Khan

Last Hope said:


> Even the Block 52 F-16 D '10801' should be changed to '12801'.


NO, I was referring to the change is Fiscal year portion in Air Force serial. Their factory serial remains unchanged. I guess these adjustments are done to accommodate purchase of more F-16s under FMS. (Most of F-16s received by PAF from 2005-2008 were 'B' models )


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## SameeullahAther

Konya,Turkey AE '12.

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## Last Hope

Najam Khan said:


> NO, I was referring to the change is Fiscal year portion in Air Force serial. Their factory serial remains unchanged. I guess these adjustments are done to accommodate purchase of more F-16s under FMS. (Most of F-16s received by PAF from 2005-2008 were 'B' models )



I understand this would be a problem if we wish to purchase more F-16s, but the aircraft was delivered in 2012 not 2010.


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## Windjammer



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## Last Hope

Windjammer said:


>

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## Nishan_101

Last Hope said:


>


 
I have heard that PAF was looking for another 36 Block-52s order increase the numbers to 54 or may be 60 but I think now they have stopped it.


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## Pak47

Nishan_101 said:


> I have heard that PAF was looking for another 36 Block-52s order increase the numbers to 54 or may be 60 but I think now they have stopped it.



I believe another 14 are being delivered by December 2012.


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## Nishan_101

Pak47 said:


> I believe another 14 are being delivered by December 2012.


 
that would be block-15s old ones. I have heard that PAF is looking in to more 32 Block-52s.


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## Last Hope

Nishan_101 said:


> I have heard that PAF was looking for another 36 Block-52s order increase the numbers to 54 or may be 60 but I think now they have stopped it.


Just rumours. Nothing more.


Pak47 said:


> I believe another 14 are being delivered by December 2012.


Those are ex-US Navy, the units originally built for PAF but latter embargoed. 


Nishan_101 said:


> that would be block-15s old ones. I have heard that PAF is looking in to more 32 Block-52s.


That is not true. However PAF wanted to get 18 more Block 52s to make total of 32 Block 52s. But cannot (more like will not) confirm the status of this consideration. So please, do not spread the rumours that LH is saying PAF has acquired 18 more Block 52s.

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## Donatello

Last Hope said:


> Just rumours. Nothing more.
> 
> Those are ex-US Navy, the units originally built for PAF but latter embargoed.
> 
> That is not true. However PAF wanted to get 18 more Block 52s to make total of 32 Block 52s. But cannot (more like will not) confirm the status of this consideration. So please, do not spread the rumours that LH is saying PAF has acquired 18 more Block 52s.




There were rumors floating on this very forum that PAF had gone ahead with the 18 more BLK 52+ option, but we haven't seen anything. Maybe if Kayani can prove US that F-16s are vital in operation against North Waziristan terrorists, then USA can approve. We already have 500 AMRAAMs, so basically we need to just place order for jets. Infrastructure, simulator, training everything is in place. Rather waiting for J-10, i think getting more BLK52s should be a priority.


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## Last Hope

Donatello said:


> There were rumors floating on this very forum that PAF had gone ahead with the 18 more BLK 52+ option, but we haven't seen anything. Maybe if Kayani can prove US that F-16s are vital in operation against North Waziristan terrorists, then USA can approve. We already have 500 AMRAAMs, so basically we need to just place order for jets. Infrastructure, simulator, training everything is in place. Rather waiting for J-10, i think getting more BLK52s should be a priority.



We don't need to prove. We have option available for upto 56 units of F-16 C and D. But PAF is not practising it.


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## Nishan_101

Although I am supporter that PAF should have tried to negotiate to get the 24 of their F-16s Block-15 from US as well as 24 F-16s Block-15 from Venuezvella and upgrade them with their own money in Turkey in Five years of time. So till 2009 we would have 83 F-16s Block-15 MLU-3 and try to get 700 MICA and 700 Aim-120C5s may be license for MICA to produce 1100 of these at AWC.


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


>



What's with the absence of serial number?

Is it being delivered?


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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> What's with the absence of serial number?
> 
> Is it being delivered?



It has a serial 8**. I am not mentioning the other two!


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## Windjammer



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## air marshal

*August 20, 1982 : PAF accepts first F-16 from Peace Gate I order.*

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## MZUBAIR

PAF F16 journey (looks to me) is over


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## mylovepakistan

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF F16 journey (looks to me) is over




i wish.......

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## TOPGUN

MZUBAIR said:


> PAF F16 journey (looks to me) is over



It's far from over my friend ... let PAF decide that and trust me it's not over

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## ababeel22

its only logical why would paf abandon a nearly 3 decade old platform with whom it has such a vast experience and it still is one of the better fighter jets in the world??? also paf pilots have very good experience and record with f16s. y would they give up all this for anything new and unproven? i think f16s are here to stay in paf for at least 10 more years.


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## soul hacker

GROUP PHOTO AT SHAHBAZ airbase

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## mylovepakistan

ababeel22 said:


> its only logical why would paf abandon a nearly 3 decade old platform with whom it has such a vast experience and it still is one of the better fighter jets in the world??? also paf pilots have very good experience and record with f16s. y would they give up all this for anything new and unproven? i think f16s are here to stay in paf for at least 10 more years.



ghost of sanctions and not to forget "kill switches"....LOL!!!


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## ababeel22

ghosts occur only in stories, u dont decide not to buy a car just because u can meet with an accident someday.


mylovepakistan said:


> ghost of sanctions and not to forget "kill switches"....LOL!!!


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## Gurmani

Hmm. Nice.


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## LegionnairE

Even Turkey is planning to keep operating with F16s untill 2040 along with F35 that is...

I really don't think Pakistan will retire them ten years before us


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## Edevelop

LegionnairE said:


> Even Turkey is planning to keep operating with F16s untill 2040 along with F35 that is...
> 
> I really don't think Pakistan will retire them ten years before us



They are not retired even in the U.S air force. It has become a huge success and i bet they will create more blocks...


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## razgriz19

cb4 said:


> They are not retired even in the U.S air force. It has become a huge success and i bet they will create more blocks...


 
Yes i believe there is one in pipeline. im not sure if it has a go from DoD.
Its called F-16V Viper.
you can say its a blk 70 as a stop gap till f-35 arrives.


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## Windjammer

Not sure if the news has been posted before, from what i understand, No 11 Squadron has moved to Jacobabad to work up on the MLUed F-16s as they start coming off the shop floor. It probably adds a few hundred more pages to the pilot's curriculum.


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## Last Hope

Windjammer said:


> Not sure if the news has been posted before, f*rom what i understand, No 11 Squadron has moved to Jacobabad* to work up on the MLUed F-16s as they start coming off the shop floor. It probably adds a few hundred more pages to the pilot's curriculum.



Five MLU F-16 Aircraft have been delivered to PAF which are at PAF Base Shahbaz at Jacobabad. 
The pilot would get his training to fly the MLU and after the training of pilots, air men and crew of the unit; they would be moved back to Sarogodha serving their respective squadrons (No.11 and No.9).

And yes, the pilot has to study a lot.


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## A1Kaid

What is the operational ceiling of the F-16?


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## Last Hope

A1Kaid said:


> What is the operational ceiling of the F-16?



It's 60,000+. 
Why do you ask?


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## Nishan_101

soul hacker said:


> GROUP PHOTO AT SHAHBAZ airbase


 
Although I support this fact that if PAF and GoP jointly negotiated with the US for the possible purchase of 24 Venuezellian F-16s Block-15 and also to free 28 ex-PAF F-16s Block-15 and PAF will be paying for the upgrade of 83 of these F-16s Block-15 in Turkey that will start from 2004-2008 and more over buying some 50-55 F-16s Block-52(35Ds and 20Cs) with 700 Aim-120C5 and other weapons. Than the situation now will be different and keeping the environment healthy with the US and NATO is Pakistan's own responsibility.


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## alimobin memon

Kill switch seems lag-git , I think if there is some thing like that then that would be remote EMP...


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## krash

nuclearpak said:


> What's with the absence of serial number?
> 
> Is it being delivered?


 
Its there. Its on the spine, blocked by the wing. You can see just a hint of it.



Last Hope said:


>


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## soul hacker

can we acquire something like this, i think it will be great punch 
U.S. F-16s tasked to destroy enemy radars, missile batteries to get the same radar-absorbing paint job of the F-35
All the U.S. &#8220;Wild Weasel&#8221; F-16s are being given a new paint job similar to the one of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

It is called &#8220;Have Glass 5th generation&#8221; as it represents the evolution of the standard Have Glass program that saw all the F-16s receiving a two-tone grey color scheme made with a special radar-absorbing paint capable to reduce the aircraft Radar Cross Section: in fact, &#8220;Vipers&#8221; are covered with RAM (Radar Absorbent Material) made of microscopic metal grains that can degrade the radar signature of the aircraft.

For the moment, the JSF-like paint job will be applied to the F-16CM (formerly CJ) Block 50 Fighting Falcon aircraft that can carry a variety of air-to-air and air-to-surface ordnance, including HARM (High-speed Anti-Radiation Missiles) and precision-guided munitions.

Their role is to enter the enemy territory ahead of the strike package to take care of the enemy air defenses: radars and fixed and mobile SAM (Surface to Air Missiles) batteries.

Therefore, the units that will fly with the F-16CMs in the new color scheme will be those tasked with SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) missions: the 52nd Fighter Wing at Spangdahlem (Germany), the 35th FW at Misawa (Japan), the 20th FW at Shaw Air Force Base, the 169th FW at McEntire Joint National Guard Base (SC), and 148th FW at Duluth International Airport, (MN).

Whilst two aircraft in the U.S. flew the Have Glass 4 paint job for test purposes (98-0004 and 98-0005 flying with the 85th Test and Evaluation Squadron from Eglin AFB) the first aircraft spotted in the new livery is a Minnesota ANG F-16CM, 91-0391, that is currently deployed at Kandahar, Afghanistan.


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## Windjammer



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## Myth_buster_1

Windjammer said:


>


Block 52 C?



soul hacker said:


> can we acquire something like this, i think it will be great punch
> U.S. F-16s tasked to destroy enemy radars, missile batteries to get the same radar-absorbing paint job of the F-35
> All the U.S. &#8220;Wild Weasel&#8221; F-16s are being given a new paint job similar to the one of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.
> 
> It is called &#8220;Have Glass 5th generation&#8221; as it represents the evolution of the standard Have Glass program that saw all the F-16s receiving a two-tone grey color scheme made with a special radar-absorbing paint capable to reduce the aircraft Radar Cross Section: in fact, &#8220;Vipers&#8221; are covered with RAM (Radar Absorbent Material) made of microscopic metal grains that can degrade the radar signature of the aircraft.
> 
> For the moment, the JSF-like paint job will be applied to the F-16CM (formerly CJ) Block 50 Fighting Falcon aircraft that can carry a variety of air-to-air and air-to-surface ordnance, including HARM (High-speed Anti-Radiation Missiles) and precision-guided munitions.
> 
> Their role is to enter the enemy territory ahead of the strike package to take care of the enemy air defenses: radars and fixed and mobile SAM (Surface to Air Missiles) batteries.
> 
> Therefore, the units that will fly with the F-16CMs in the new color scheme will be those tasked with SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) missions: the 52nd Fighter Wing at Spangdahlem (Germany), the 35th FW at Misawa (Japan), the 20th FW at Shaw Air Force Base, the 169th FW at McEntire Joint National Guard Base (SC), and 148th FW at Duluth International Airport, (MN).
> 
> Whilst two aircraft in the U.S. flew the Have Glass 4 paint job for test purposes (98-0004 and 98-0005 flying with the 85th Test and Evaluation Squadron from Eglin AFB) the first aircraft spotted in the new livery is a Minnesota ANG F-16CM, 91-0391, that is currently deployed at Kandahar, Afghanistan.



Our F-16s are bugged and u are talking about reducing their radar signature? LOL
Lets hope china man comes up with a similar concept for jf


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## Last Hope

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Block 52 C?



No. Block-15A.
The air-intakes of Block 52 are too large than these.

Plus, this seems to be international exercise. Block-52s have not left Pakistan.
Neither does the runway look like PAF Base Shahbaz.


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## A.Rafay

Whats the 911 Memorial doing their in jacobabad airbase? I saw it on google earth, there is a picture of it behind main hanger.Is there a american presence?


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## Last Hope

A.Rafay said:


> Whats the 911 Memorial doing their in jacobabad airbase? I saw it on google earth, there is a picture of it behind main hanger.*Is there a american presence?*


 
Yes we have Americans on PAF Base Shahbaz and we will have them for a few more years.


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## A.Rafay

Last Hope said:


> Yes we have Americans on PAF Base Shahbaz and *we will have them for a few more years*.


For what reason? WOT or Anything else?


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## Myth_buster_1

Last Hope said:


> No. Block-15A.
> The air-intakes of Block 52 are too large than these.
> 
> Plus, this seems to be international exercise. Block-52s have not left Pakistan.
> Neither does the runway look like PAF Base Shahbaz.



if u look closely at the first pic the f-16 in the center has parachute bay (dont know the term) so it cant be block 15.


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## v9s

A.Rafay said:


> For what reason? WOT or Anything else?



To oversee the block 52's


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## Fieldmarshal

they are not usaf personal but LM personal as it is stipulated in the contract.
and it is not just with PAF but with with all costumers.


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## Last Hope

A.Rafay said:


> For what reason? WOT or Anything else?


The American presence on the base is for the Block-52s. They will stay with it for a while, overlooking the operations, pilot training and that Chinese stay away from Block-52s. 


Fieldmarshal said:


> they are not usaf personal but LM personal as it is stipulated in the contract.
> and it is not just with PAF but with with all costumers.


There are also USAF personnel. I have seen them. They control the NATO supply lines from PAF Base Shahbaz.


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> There are also USAF personnel. I have seen them. They control the NATO supply lines from PAF Base Shahbaz.



Uh...you say what?

USAF controlling supplies? Ground supplies?


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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Uh...you say what?
> 
> USAF controlling supplies? Ground supplies?



That was an error.
PAF Base Shahbaz has three types of American personnel.

1) Lockheed Martin staff.
2) USAF personnel.
3) US personnel that control NATO supplies and overview WOT efforts by Pakistan. 

I don't know who the third category are, Pentagon or Marines or whatever.


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> That was an error.
> PAF Base Shahbaz has three types of American personnel.
> 
> 1) Lockheed Martin staff.
> 2) USAF personnel.
> 3) US personnel that control NATO supplies and overview WOT efforts by Pakistan.
> 
> I don't know who the third category are, Pentagon or Marines or whatever.



Why would they be at Shahbaz? To overview WoT and things like that. Shouldn't they be at GHQ or something.

Anyway, i thought that air supplies did not land at Pakistan. This was the case about a year ago, has it changed now?


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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Why would they be at Shahbaz? To overview WoT and things like that. Shouldn't they be at GHQ or something.
> *
> Anyway, i thought that air supplies did not land at Pakistan. This was the case about a year ago, has it changed now?*



We're going away from original topic. I don't think they do, but you can confirm with fatman.


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> We're going away from original topic. I don't think they do, but you can confirm with fatman.



Yeah, maybe we are going off-topic.


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## fatman17

A.Rafay said:


> Whats the 911 Memorial doing their in jacobabad airbase? I saw it on google earth, there is a picture of it behind main hanger.Is there a american presence?[/QUOTE]
> 
> remember this was a major ops base for the US during musharraf rule. now 95% of the US have left. what is left is civilian and military technicians advisors/trainers for the new F16's. the 911 memorial was 'created' by the US servicemen and it would be in bad taste to dismantle it just yet.

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## Jungibaaz

MastanKhan said:


> I haven't seen the pictures of a BLK52 with aim120 in paf colors either---did I miss it---. All the aim120 have been delivered as well as the blk52's----. The mlu's are also coming back---but no display of aim120--can someone correct me please.



This picture was posted some time back:







That is the only picture I have seen a PAF F-16 with AMRAAM.

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## Pak47

Jf-17 Vs. F-20





Max G debate at 8.5 (jf-17)
T/W .96-1.01 (jf-17)









These jets are pretty similar on Paper. 

The JF-17 does have a slightly larger range, and lower fuel consumption. 

We all know pilot training and maintenance requirements would be the final deciding factor in combat.


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## fatman17

*Today in history5 Sep 1989 

Pakistan orders 60 F-16s (Peace Gate IV).*

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## SameeullahAther

Jungibaaz said:


> This picture was posted some time back:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is the only picture I have seen a PAF F-16 with AMRAAM.



Read carefully what Mastan Khan said,There's a difference between AIM-120C5 and CATM-120C  You failed to grasp his point sir


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## SBD-3

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I haven't seen the pictures of a BLK52 with aim120 in paf colors either---did I miss it---. All the aim120 have been delivered as well as the blk52's----. The mlu's are also coming back---but no display of aim120--can someone correct me please.


F-16 MLU with AMRAAM




Block 52 with AMRAAM

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## Jungibaaz

SameeullahAther said:


> Read carefully what Mastan Khan said,There's a difference between AIM-120C5 and CATM-120C  You failed to grasp his point sir



Apologies for that then.
I wasn't following the discussions you see... I saw and I posted.


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## mylovepakistan

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/255442_317590125005557_3361896_n.jpg


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## Nishan_101

fatman17 said:


> *Today in history5 Sep 1989
> 
> Pakistan orders 60 F-16s (Peace Gate IV).*


 
Wrong 71 F-16s


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

yep 71 aircraft were ordered , and about $658 million were paid in advance ...
but sadly that deal met a dead end , recently we were provided with 14 out of those 71 aircraft..


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## miroofi75

hey this block 52 doesn't have many weapon points as i saw on the web.


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## Windjammer



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## IceCold

hasnain0099 said:


> F-16 MLU with AMRAAM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Block 52 with AMRAAM



Pardon my ignorance but shouldnt those be underneath the wings somewhere?


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## Viper0011.

IceCold said:


> Pardon my ignorance but shouldnt those be underneath the wings somewhere?


 
This is a USAF/ ANG standard to carry AMRAAMS on the wingtips. PA and PAF are adopting those standards also. You can even see the new uniforms, hats, the way the soldiers put their gear on, etc. They are adopting to the American / NATO standards

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## SBD-3

IceCold said:


> Pardon my ignorance but shouldnt those be underneath the wings somewhere?


Depends upon need, ofcourse most of the times AMRAAM inventory is being carried out on inner playloans with WVRAAM on wingtips. But I dont think PAF would be preferring AMRAAMs on wingtips while WARAAMs (which are almost 30-50% lighter) on inner playloans. This may be for pictures,not necessarily for ADA or combat.


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## IceCold

orangzaib said:


> This is a USAF/ ANG standard to carry AMRAAMS on the wingtips. PA and PAF are adopting those standards also. You can even see the new uniforms, hats, the way the soldiers put their gear on, etc. They are adopting to the American / NATO standards



Ahan i see. Wasn't aware of this. If i can bother you with one more question?

Is this just a standard protocol or has some significance too?


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## S.U.R.B.

IceCold said:


> Ahan i see. Wasn't aware of this. If i can bother you with one more question?
> 
> Is this just a standard protocol or has some significance too?



During BVR interception role,AMRAAMs are the first ones to go.

So the pylon gets empty pretty soon before the need for some high G maneuvering arises in a WVR combat. 

While if you have a sidewinder on the wingtip.It will stay there during close on combat as well,till the pilot uses it.

It also varies from platform to platform.Also if you see F-16 & it's role in PAF.It'll suggest you a lot of things.

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## Viper0011.

IceCold said:


> Ahan i see. Wasn't aware of this. If i can bother you with one more question?
> Is this just a standard protocol or has some significance too?



There's some sense behind it too. AMRAAM produces more flames, heated smoke and particles. On wingtips, you fire it and the impact happens in the air. But if it's underneath the wings and its fired a lot, you might have some impact to the rear part of the wing or pylon. However, the sidewinder is a smaller missile with much less intensity and coverage when firing, so if it's put under the wing, it has almost no impact and it leaves quicker. AMRAAM leaves the aircraft a bit slower than sidewinder. The difference is seamless to an open eye but it does matter a little.

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## TaimiKhan

IceCold said:


> Ahan i see. Wasn't aware of this. If i can bother you with one more question?
> 
> Is this just a standard protocol or has some significance too?



The placement of missiles on the F-16s wingtip has everything to do with the wing fluttering & drag. This is what i can give you, rest you can research 

But from what i have read so far, the placement of AIM-120 has good effects on the wing fluttering & drag ratios, that is why its preferred to be placed on the wingtip stations. 

Sorry could not be of much help.

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## TaimiKhan

orangzaib said:


> There's some sense behind it too. AMRAAM produces more flames, heated smoke and particles. On wingtips, you fire it and the impact happens in the air. But if it's underneath the wings and its fired a lot, you might have some impact to the rear part of the wing or pylon. However, the sidewinder is a smaller missile with much less intensity and coverage when firing, so if it's put under the wing, it has almost no impact and it leaves quicker. AMRAAM leaves the aircraft a bit slower than sidewinder. The difference is seamless to an open eye but it does matter a little.



I do believe there is an option of the rocket motor ignition being delayed after ejection from the launcher, thus the thing you mentioned above should not be much of a problem. 

















F-22 & F-35s and other fighter jets use the same kind of system, missile is ejected first and then the rocket motor is ignited.

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## araz

orangzaib said:


> This is a USAF/ ANG standard to carry AMRAAMS on the wingtips. PA and PAF are adopting those standards also. You can even see the new uniforms, hats, the way the soldiers put their gear on, etc. They are adopting to the American / NATO standards



Is there any provision of dual launcher rails for WVR missiles and would there be advantage in using the WVRs on inner pylons.
Araz


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## Dazzler

Unfortunately there is none, but the Falcons can carry six of them with three drop tanks, thanks to two extra hardpoints available. Dual missile rails were deemed a must for JF-17 when the need arises due to less hardpoints.


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## Viper0011.

TaimiKhan said:


> I do believe there is an option of the rocket motor ignition being delayed after ejection from the launcher, thus the thing you mentioned above should not be much of a problem.
> 
> F-22 & F-35s and other fighter jets use the same kind of system, missile is ejected first and then the rocket motor is ignited.


 
I never said there wasn't. However, protocols are made considering plane's and pilot's security. Once a missile's armed and then fired and if the plane is upside down....how'd you release it and expect it to go many meters below due to the gravity before ignition?? If you are upside down, it can't be released like like that as you'll be underneath the missile. It would ignite from it's current position or may be a couple of feet from the jet. Meaning the jet will be hit with the smoke and degree (that could happen easily if the missile is so close). 
Under this situation, you are firing like this due to the angle of attack and being in combat....you may not have the time to straighten the aircraft to 'properly fire' the missile.

Jets with weapon's bay (Stealth jets) are a different story. They don't show up on the radar so the chances are that no one is seeing them clearly when they open up their weapons bay and make it rain with AMRAAM or whatever else. Plus, for other planes, during test firing and training, they always fire from a straight normal position. In combat, that position could be anything but straight and simple.


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## airmarshal

IceCold said:


> Pardon my ignorance but shouldnt those be underneath the wings somewhere?



Wow!!!! Good to see MLUed F-16A for the first time! Great



orangzaib said:


> This is a USAF/ ANG standard to carry AMRAAMS on the wingtips. PA and PAF are adopting those standards also. You can even see the new uniforms, hats, the way the soldiers put their gear on, etc. They are adopting to the American / NATO standards



Another point is with newer F-16s, new pylons have been adopted which can carry both AIM-120 and AIM-9 missiles. Older pylons could only carry AIM-9s.


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## gambit

orangzaib said:


> I never said there wasn't. However, protocols are made considering plane's and pilot's security. Once a missile's armed and then fired and if the plane is upside down....how'd you release it and expect it to go many meters below due to the gravity before ignition?? If you are upside down, it can't be released like like that as you'll be underneath the missile. It would ignite from it's current position or may be a couple of feet from the jet. Meaning the jet will be hit with the smoke and degree (that could happen easily if the missile is so close).
> Under this situation, you are firing like this due to the angle of attack and being in combat....you may not have the time to straighten the aircraft to 'properly fire' the missile.
> 
> Jets with weapon's bay (Stealth jets) are a different story. They don't show up on the radar so the chances are that no one is seeing them clearly when they open up their weapons bay and make it rain with AMRAAM or whatever else. Plus, for other planes, during test firing and training, they always fire from a straight normal position. In combat, that position could be anything but straight and simple.


The missile's rocket motor ignite via timing mechanism. It does not matter if you are 'upside' or 'upside down'. The ejector cartridges can 'kick' a weight of over 300 lbs out at about 30ft/sec. Pilots know that if they launch from positions other than 'upside' they will have to slightly maneuver away from the missile's gravity driven arc.

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## Nishan_101

Windjammer said:


>


 
Yeah! Much better if we had negotiated with US in 2002 to get all the 28 from them along with the upgrade kits to Turkey to upgrade these 59 in Turkey in 5 years time starting from 2003-2007 and also we could have tried for 24 Venuezvellan F-16s with US permission.

Although we don't need in good numbers but instead of 18 we should have ordered *35-55 F-16s Block-52(15Cs/20Ds OR 20Cs/35Ds)* 
*With an Agreement that they will not halt any supply of spares will develop an over haul facility at PAC.*


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## REHAN NIAZI FALCON

Nishan_101 said:


> Yeah! Much better if we had negotiated with US in 2002 to get all the 28 from them along with the upgrade kits to Turkey to upgrade these 59 in Turkey in 5 years time starting from 2003-2007 and also we could have tried for 24 Venuezvellan F-16s with US permission.
> 
> Although we don't need in good numbers but instead of 18 we should have ordered *35-55 F-16s Block-52(15Cs/20Ds OR 20Cs/35Ds)*
> *With an Agreement that they will not halt any supply of spares will develop an over haul facility at PAC.*


it would have been better , 
but brother we are slaves , so we need to be happy with what ever our master provides to us

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## Imran Khan




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## Tehmasib



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## Tehmasib



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## razgriz19

gambit said:


> The missile's rocket motor ignite via timing mechanism. It does not matter if you are 'upside' or 'upside down'. The ejector cartridges can 'kick' a weight of over 300 lbs out at about 30ft/sec. Pilots know that if they launch from positions other than 'upside' they will have to slightly maneuver away from the missile's gravity driven arc.



and also missiles are sitting on movable arms that gives them enough clearance to steer away from the aircraft at any given position.


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## Najam Khan

Pictures from F-16 Block 52 first ever ferry mission to Pakistan.

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## Jango

Najam Khan said:


>



Isn't there supposed to be a 5th tank there?


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## Najam Khan

nuclearpak said:


> Isn't there supposed to be a 5th tank there?


Three under-wing external tanks is the maximum limit on F-16. The smaller one is MXU-648 cargo pod.

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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> Isn't there supposed to be a 5th tank there?



You can keep your baggage & aircraft covers (Nose, Intake, HUD etc.) in that fourth small tank but no FUEL.


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## S.U.R.B.

Najam Khan said:


> Pictures from F-16 Block 52 first ever ferry mission to Pakistan.





Also a single smoke generator pod on both the ACs.Asymmetry can tarnish the beauty.


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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day&#8220;Wingman is only allowed to say three things: Two, Bingo, and Lead, you're on Fire &#8221;
-- Anonymous*

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## fatman17

*Advanced situational awareness &#8211; the next step for AIDEWS*

24 September 2012 



The Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) provides new and legacy fighter aircraft with advanced radar warning and radio frequency countermeasures. Julian Turner talks to Stuart Altman, ITT Exelis Electronic Systems AIDEWS business area lead, about the company's mission to equip allied forces with increased situational awareness and survivability. 


Deployed by six military customers worldwide under the US Government foreign military sales (FMS) programme, the Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) is a next-generation radar warning system designed to provide F-16 pilots with situational awareness and protection against radar-based threats, including modern surface-to-air and air-to-air weaponry.


Related project

F-16 Fighting Falcon Multirole Fighter
The Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, the first of the US Air Force multirole fighter aircraft, is the world's most prolific fighter.

Available as an internally installed system or an externally mounted pod, AIDEWS can be tailored to unique customer requirements to provide integrated radar warning and radio frequency (RF) countermeasures, along with advanced stand-alone radar warnings.

The original AIDEWS design is based on the ITT Exelis ALQ-211 Suite of Integrated RF Countermeasures (SIRFC), a modular, scalable system developed to protect rotary aircraft, such as the AH-64D Longbow Apache, the MH-47 and the MH-60, against RF air defence systems actively engaging the aircraft.

"We recognised that our F-16 pilots need the same type of protection, especially with the Block 50 and 52 aircraft that are currently in production and being sold internationally," said Stuart Altman, ITT Exelis Electronic Systems AIDEWS business area lead.

"Exelis decided to take a technology leap and incorporate state-of-the-art digital receiver capability and advanced digital radio frequency memory (DRFM) technology into the SIRFC system, and adapt it better for the F-16 fast-flyer environment."

Counting the cost: the modular technology revolution
"AIDEWS can be easily modified to be a radar warning receiver (RWR) only or a full RWR and jammer system."ITT Exelis, a specialist provider of electronic warfare and self-defence technologies, recently completed development of an externally mounted pod version of AIDEWS (pronounced 'eh-dooz'). The only electronic countermeasures (ECM) pod currently in production, it offers unrivalled scalability to the US Air Force (USAF) and its international allies as they look to provide pilots of new and legacy fighter aircraft with increased situational awareness and survivability in theatre.

"The pod-based system has completed its development and is in production now with our first customer," Altman tells me from the ITT Exelis Electronic Systems division in Clifton, New Jersey, US. "There are a lot of legacy aircraft out there, and F-16 users are looking to upgrade and protect their investment."

AIDEWS is based on modular electronic warfare (EW) technology, meaning upgrade costs are shared and affordable. New and legacy F-16 users have the advantage of sharing the exact same components for the internally mounted and external pod versions, significantly reducing the cost of ownership at a time when MoDs - hamstrung by swingeing budget cuts - are turning in ever greater number to the commercial aerospace sector in search of economies of scale, technical innovation and systems support.

"AIDEWS can be modified to be a radar warning receiver (RWR) only or a full RWR and jammer system by adding or removing modules," explains Altman. "For most aircraft today, the cost of integrating new on-board systems is beyond the customer's budget because of the extensive aircraft wiring changes required, while legacy aircraft may not have the real estate on board to accept the boxes. Being a modular system, AIDEWS is less expensive to upgrade for two primary reasons.

"One, newer capabilities such as increased bandwidth and more advanced software are available by simply adding a new digital receiver card or module. Two, the broad user base means the cost of an upgrade gets spread over a much larger number of users, making it a lot less expensive. The modularity of the AIDEWS system allows it to be continually upgraded, ensuring that our warfighters have the edge in any environment."

Testing times: AIDEWS design verification and deployment
ITT Exelis is currently in production, providing more than 180 AIDEWS suites for six nations. The ALQ-211 technology is already integrated into a plethora of US and allied defence rotary-wing and fighter aircraft, including the NH-90 helicopter, V-22 Osprey, MH-47 and MH-60 Black Hawk, as well as several commercial platforms.

Related project
V-22 Osprey Tilt-Rotor Aircraft, US
The V-22 Osprey is a joint-service, medium-lift, multimission tilt-rotor aircraft developed by Boeing and Bell Helicopters.

In July of 2012, at Los Condores Air Base in Chile, Exelis and the USAF successfully tested the AIDEWS Block 5.2 configuration aboard the Chilean Air Force's (FACh) F-16 Block 50 Fighting Falcon aircraft against a wide range of airborne fire control radars with overlapping operating frequencies. The upgraded Block 5.2 standard supports the forthcoming delivery of combat-capable electronic warfare mission data to five nations with AIDEWS-equipped F-16 aircraft.

"The AIDEWS system has gone through extensive design verification testing by the US Government, including validation by mission data development experts at Eglin Air Force Base," confirms Altman. "Currently, most AIDEWS systems in production are earmarked for Block 50 and 52 F-16s that customers are buying new."

Already in 2012, ITT Exelis has awarded a contract for AIDEWS jamming pods for integration into the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fleet of F-16 Fighting Falcon fighter jets as part of a deal worth $54m. This was followed in July by another FMS contract - ultimately worth more than $50m - to supply 12 electronic warfare suites to the Royal Air Force of Oman (RAFO). Without revealing specifics, Altman hints at further procurement deals in the pipeline.

"If a country is looking to buy new production F-16 aircraft that are still in full production at Lockheed Martin, then we always try to be part of that install," he says. "There are a lot of legacy F-16s around the world that are now being upgraded to be frontline fighters, and that's exactly what we built this capability for. There's a huge market there that we are on top of."

Suite escape: AIDEWS technology explained
AIDEWS has advanced off-the-shelf warning and jamming technology by an order of magnitude. The system architecture incorporates a channelised digital radar warning receiver (RWR) that operates in high-density environments; a lightweight, high-performance digital RF memory (DRFM)-based jammer designed to defeat pulse, pulse Doppler and continuous wave threats; and leading-edge electronic warfare control capability.

"ITT Exelis is currently providing more than 180 AIDEWS suites for six nations.""The AIDEWS system has radar warning receiver capability as well as jamming capability, and searches the environment for anticipated radar threats," explains Altman. "These could simply be acquisition-type radars that are looking for the plane as it enters a dangerous area, or they could be radars that are guiding weapons.

"One of the best things about AIDEWS is that we can identify these threats well in advance of them even knowing we are there. This gives the pilot the advantage of being able to take evasive manoeuvres, while at the same time knowing he is protected by state-of-the-art DRFM-based jamming algorithms.

"AIDEWS can also be reprogrammed for any mission, defining which threats to look for, how to look for them and which type of jamming to perform when that threat is identified," he adds.

The system's modular design also supports the substitution of both line replaceable units (LRUs) and shop replaceable units (SRUs) in the field without returning the entire system or pod.

The sky's the limit: budget cuts and the future of AIDEWS
I conclude by asking Altman if he believes that the trend for modular, off-the-shelf solutions will continue as air forces and commercial aerospace companies adjust to the ongoing global economic downturn and the gradual shift in power towards the emerging BRICs economies.

"The modularity of the AIDEWS system ensures that our warfighters have the edge in any environment.""Sure, there are budget issues throughout out the world - including in the US - but there are still priorities being set around the various investments made in global defence forces," he says. "Regardless of budgets, air forces still have to maintain their aircraft and protect their pilots. That's not going to go away."

AIDEWS, by its very nature and design, will continue to be in demand as allied air forces across the globe look to upgrade their F-16 fleets with reliable, effective countermeasures to complete the full gamut of mission requirements, be it close-air support, battlefield area interdiction, strike, suppression of enemy air defences or defence interception.

"AIDEWS is not a paper system," Altman states. "We are out there, we are flying and we can provide this proven off-the-shelf solution faster and at a significantly lower cost."

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## Last Hope

Only the older men on this forum would recognize this picture. Vital Signs racing past an F-16A on runway.

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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day&#8220;There are three rules for making a smooth landing: Unfortunately, no one knows what they are.&#8221; 
-- Unknown*

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## VCheng

fatman17 said:


> *Quote of the Day&#8220;There are three rules for making a smooth landing: Unfortunately, no one knows what they are.&#8221;
> -- Unknown*




Only one rule applies to landings, Sir:

_"Any landing that you walk away from, is a GOOD landing."_

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> *Advanced situational awareness &#8211; the next step for AIDEWS*
> 
> 24 September 2012
> 
> 
> 
> The Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) provides new and legacy fighter aircraft with advanced radar warning and radio frequency countermeasures. Julian Turner talks to Stuart Altman, ITT Exelis Electronic Systems AIDEWS business area lead, about the company's mission to equip allied forces with increased situational awareness and survivability.
> 
> 
> Deployed by six military customers worldwide under the US Government foreign military sales (FMS) programme, the Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) is a next-generation radar warning system designed to provide F-16 pilots with situational awareness and protection against radar-based threats, including modern surface-to-air and air-to-air weaponry.
> 
> 
> Related project
> 
> F-16 Fighting Falcon Multirole Fighter
> The Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon, the first of the US Air Force multirole fighter aircraft, is the world's most prolific fighter.
> 
> Available as an internally installed system or an externally mounted pod, AIDEWS can be tailored to unique customer requirements to provide integrated radar warning and radio frequency (RF) countermeasures, along with advanced stand-alone radar warnings.
> 
> The original AIDEWS design is based on the ITT Exelis ALQ-211 Suite of Integrated RF Countermeasures (SIRFC), a modular, scalable system developed to protect rotary aircraft, such as the AH-64D Longbow Apache, the MH-47 and the MH-60, against RF air defence systems actively engaging the aircraft.
> 
> "We recognised that our F-16 pilots need the same type of protection, especially with the Block 50 and 52 aircraft that are currently in production and being sold internationally," said Stuart Altman, ITT Exelis Electronic Systems AIDEWS business area lead.
> 
> "Exelis decided to take a technology leap and incorporate state-of-the-art digital receiver capability and advanced digital radio frequency memory (DRFM) technology into the SIRFC system, and adapt it better for the F-16 fast-flyer environment."
> 
> Counting the cost: the modular technology revolution
> "AIDEWS can be easily modified to be a radar warning receiver (RWR) only or a full RWR and jammer system."ITT Exelis, a specialist provider of electronic warfare and self-defence technologies, recently completed development of an externally mounted pod version of AIDEWS (pronounced 'eh-dooz'). The only electronic countermeasures (ECM) pod currently in production, it offers unrivalled scalability to the US Air Force (USAF) and its international allies as they look to provide pilots of new and legacy fighter aircraft with increased situational awareness and survivability in theatre.
> 
> "The pod-based system has completed its development and is in production now with our first customer," Altman tells me from the ITT Exelis Electronic Systems division in Clifton, New Jersey, US. "There are a lot of legacy aircraft out there, and F-16 users are looking to upgrade and protect their investment."
> 
> AIDEWS is based on modular electronic warfare (EW) technology, meaning upgrade costs are shared and affordable. New and legacy F-16 users have the advantage of sharing the exact same components for the internally mounted and external pod versions, significantly reducing the cost of ownership at a time when MoDs - hamstrung by swingeing budget cuts - are turning in ever greater number to the commercial aerospace sector in search of economies of scale, technical innovation and systems support.
> 
> "AIDEWS can be modified to be a radar warning receiver (RWR) only or a full RWR and jammer system by adding or removing modules," explains Altman. "For most aircraft today, the cost of integrating new on-board systems is beyond the customer's budget because of the extensive aircraft wiring changes required, while legacy aircraft may not have the real estate on board to accept the boxes. Being a modular system, AIDEWS is less expensive to upgrade for two primary reasons.
> 
> "One, newer capabilities such as increased bandwidth and more advanced software are available by simply adding a new digital receiver card or module. Two, the broad user base means the cost of an upgrade gets spread over a much larger number of users, making it a lot less expensive. The modularity of the AIDEWS system allows it to be continually upgraded, ensuring that our warfighters have the edge in any environment."
> 
> Testing times: AIDEWS design verification and deployment
> ITT Exelis is currently in production, providing more than 180 AIDEWS suites for six nations. The ALQ-211 technology is already integrated into a plethora of US and allied defence rotary-wing and fighter aircraft, including the NH-90 helicopter, V-22 Osprey, MH-47 and MH-60 Black Hawk, as well as several commercial platforms.
> 
> 
> AIDEWS, by its very nature and design, will continue to be in demand as allied air forces across the globe look to upgrade their F-16 fleets with reliable, effective countermeasures to complete the full gamut of mission requirements, be it close-air support, battlefield area interdiction, strike, suppression of enemy air defences or defence interception.
> 
> "AIDEWS is not a paper system," Altman states. "We are out there, we are flying and we can provide this proven off-the-shelf solution faster and at a significantly lower cost."



Seem to be a potent system!
nice addition to F-16.

PAF is also getting these AIDEWS Electronic Countermeasure System


> *PAF Orders AIDEWS Electronic Countermeasure System for Its F-16s*
> Pakistan Air Force has ordered Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System (AIDEWS) for the Pakistani Air Force F-16 C/D Block 52M and F-16 AM/BM.
> 
> Under this Foreign Military Sales contract worth $49 million ITT Corporation will provide a pod-variant version of the AIDEWS.
> 
> 
> Podded version of ITT's Advanced Integrated Defense Electronic Warfare System (AIDEWS) ALQ-211(V)4 has already been selected by the other international customers to equip their F-16 fighters
> 
> The ALQ-211(V)4 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System (AIDEWS) is an advanced derivative of the ITT Electronic Systems' ALQ-211 Suite of Integrated RF Countermeasures (SIRFC).


This news in from 2011




regards!


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## SQ8

Arsalan said:


> Seem to be a potent system!
> nice addition to F-16.
> 
> PAF is also getting these AIDEWS Electronic Countermeasure System



Without DRFM.


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## Arsalan

Oscar said:


> Without DRFM.



well technically accessing, how much will we lose getting it with our DRFM?


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## Bratva

Arsalan said:


> well technically accessing, how much will we lose getting it with our DRFM?



We cannot Jam enemy radar which is the main purpose of DRFM. DRFM stores and modifies and the incoming radar signal of enemy and re-transmit the modified signal back to source radar.The modified signal contain some errors which enemy radar process will yield false result such as wrong position of aircraft or it's RCS or altitude etc etc or the DRFM can re transmit the same signal back to enemy radar thus making the source radar think it's the same signal i sent and it got re transmitted to me so it's no use to process the same signal or the it will think it's a friendly aircraft radar which is producing same signal, so enemy radar can be spoofed .Thus two advantages come from this, signal is stored so we have a database of enemy radar signal and this stored signal is modified to produce false results to source radar or sent the same duplicate signal which source radar is producing thus making him difficult to process and produce accurate results on output screen.

Saudia is getting this with F-15S. I don't know why they denied it to Pakistan. May be due to India and China factor. I remember back in 2007 when issue of placing restrictions on F-16 surfaced,American senators specifically objected on DRFM and blocked it's sell to PAF


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## IceCold

mafiya said:


> Saudia is getting this with F-15S. I don't know why they denied it to Pakistan. May be due to India and China factor. I remember back in 2007 when placing restrictions on F-16 surfaced,American senators specifically objected on DRFM and blocked it's sell to PAF



And for some odd rather strange enough reason, PAF still decided to go ahead with the purchase of those F-16s which looks shinny enough for the camera.
and the irony to all of this is that even if we do manage to get something similar, we will not be able to install it on our F-16s.


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## Bratva

IceCold said:


> And for some odd rather strange enough reason, PAF still decided to go ahead with the purchase of those F-16s which looks shinny enough for the camera.
> and the irony to all of this is that even if we do manage to get something similar, we will not be able to install it on our F-16s.



Mother of Irony is. Indian Rafael will come with DFRM as it is embedded in SPECTRA EW technology... Has PAF devised a strategy to counter this technology so that our workhouse JF-17 does not fall prey to DRFM? i doubt it.


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## Dazzler

mafiya said:


> Mother of Irony is. Indian Rafael will come with DFRM as it is embedded in SPECTRA EW technology... Has PAF devised a strategy to counter this technology so that our workhouse JF-17 does not fall prey to DRFM? i doubt it.



if PAF accepted these blk 52 falcons without DRFM, this would be the first application of 211 jammers without DRFM which i highly doubt. Infact, DRFM was among the reasons why we went for 211 series (V4, V9 both) regardless of what has been reported in media. However, somethings are better left as they are. Same applies for JFT DRFM capability.

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## TVVELVEMO$

A good perusal of wikileaks would corroborate _nabil_05_ (Hint: US Ambassador). DRFM package was released for PAF F-16; or more accurately unlocked in the ALQ-211 AIDEWS for PAF falcons. Yet another evidence of good things US and Pakistan can do together without needless acrimony and childish accusations.

Looking ahead: AIDEWS will be continually upgraded into more powerful jamming & *SA*(situational awareness) system. Which means it will be hard for a frenchie to keep up with American ingenuity. One more thing. Spectra has its origins in USA; as in Thales North America, Virginia Beach. I in no way wish to denigrate the system-no doubt it is a good system but Mr Hollande is not going to invest in it as much as Monsieur Sarkozy may have promised.

Once Viper *V* standard is adopted by US; F35 technology will percolate into the vipers. Something to keep in mind if you happen to have 60+ Vipers. AESA radars, new warfare systems, Advanced AMRAAMs.......who needs Rafales?

Perhaps US & Pakistan can have a constructive relationship where Pakistan removes bad guys like Aiyman and other Arabs from her soil and curbs sons of soil from joining this global Jihad Inc. and US shares advanced technologies to further prosperity & security of a democratic & stable Pakistan.

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## SBD-3

has anybody seen this camo, beats orange hand down.

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## JPMM

Gentleman

It is too late for Pakistan to by the 12 Portuguese Air Force F16AM/BM that are for sale. The Romanians and Bulgarians are negotiating, last week the Romanian MOD announced that they would by them for 600 Million Dollars. I remember you that the development of the MLU program is now being headed by the Portuguese with the M6.1 Tape. There was an approach by the Pakistan Government asking for information, but the Romanians send a team to Portugal for inspection and concluded that the aircraft were in very good shape. These were the best aircraft the Portuguese Technicians had found in AMARC.
They are already upgraded to the M5.2 Tape.

I remember that you could by the Venezuelan F16s and upgrade them here to the M6.1 standard here in Portugal.

M6.1 means:
&#61607;	Improved IFF system (Mode 5 waveform with better distinction between friendly and enemy aircraft)
&#61607;	Introduction of AIM-120D missile (two-way datalink, improved navigation and High-Angle Off-Boresight capabilities, a doubled range)
&#61607;	Introduction of more advanced A/G weapons (GBU-39 SDB, GBU-54 LJDAM)
&#61607;	Integration of improved Link-16 functions with net-centric capability
&#61607;	Integration of a new Universal Armament Interface to standardize communication between the aircraft and the weapons, illuminating the need for new OPF tapes with every new weapon system

The Netherlands also have F16 for sale, they are selling them cheaper but with more airframe hours and less lifetime.

Greetings from Portugal

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## mosu

Greetings from Portugal[/QUOTE]



wellcome to the defense fourm dear enjoy your stay mate



JPMM said:


> Gentleman
> 
> It is too late for Pakistan to by the 12 Portuguese Air Force F16AM/BM that are for sale. The Romanians and Bulgarians are negotiating, last week the Romanian MOD announced that they would by them for 600 Million Dollars. I remember you that the development of the MLU program is now being headed by the Portuguese with the M6.1 Tape. There was an approach by the Pakistan Government asking for information, but the Romanians send a team to Portugal for inspection and concluded that the aircraft were in very good shape. These were the best aircraft the Portuguese Technicians had found in AMARC.
> They are already upgraded to the M5.2 Tape.
> 
> I remember that you could by the Venezuelan F16s and upgrade them here to the M6.1 standard here in Portugal.
> 
> M6.1 means:
> &#61607;	Improved IFF system (Mode 5 waveform with better distinction between friendly and enemy aircraft)
> &#61607;	Introduction of AIM-120D missile (two-way datalink, improved navigation and High-Angle Off-Boresight capabilities, a doubled range)
> &#61607;	Introduction of more advanced A/G weapons (GBU-39 SDB, GBU-54 LJDAM)
> &#61607;	Integration of improved Link-16 functions with net-centric capability
> &#61607;	Integration of a new Universal Armament Interface to standardize communication between the aircraft and the weapons, illuminating the need for new OPF tapes with every new weapon system
> 
> The Netherlands also have F16 for sale, they are selling them cheaper but with more airframe hours and less lifetime.
> 
> Greetings from Portugal



wellcome to defense fourm enjoy your stay mate


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## HRK

hasnain0099 said:


> has anybody seen this camo, beats orange hand down.





This should be called air modelling....


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## air marshal

*October 6 1990:* The US embargoes F-16 deliveries to Pakistan, and a total of 28 Pakistan F-16A/B block 15OCU aircraft are put in flyable hold storage in the Sonoran desert.

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## Windjammer

*
PAF Work Station*

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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer



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## BATMAN

Can any one confirm the bold comments from lady bindiya?



> Will Second-Hand F-16 Sales Rise With Budget Cuts?
> Our BureauViewed: 219 times
> Tue, Oct 9, 2012 09:37 CET
> 
> : Many countries like Indonesia, Taiwan and Portugal have begun buying used F-16 fighter jets as defense budgets shrink.
> As countries struggle under the current economic climate, defense budgets have taken a major hit causing many to invest in used fighter aircraft.
> 
> Over the last few years, developing nations have taken to buying used F-16s from allies to strengthen their air forces without spending billions on buying new aircraft.
> 
> While Lockheed Martin will charge about $70 million for a brand new F-16, a second-hand jet will cost just $15 million. For many countries on a budget, that is an attractive offer.
> 
> Budget strapped countries like Pakistan, Indonesia and Jordon besides some EU states procure used F-16 fighter jets to supplement their air forces.
> 
> Earlier this month, Portugal agreed to supply Romania with an unknown number of F-16 aircraft.
> 
> &#8220;Second-hand fighters do not mean the same thing as a second-hand car. They are disassembled to the last pieces of wing. When they are reassembled they can be used in safe conditions. The fighters are very well maintained,&#8221; said Romania&#8217;s Defence Minister Corneliu Dobritoiu.
> 
> Jordon in 2007 signed an agreement with Belgium for the sale of 14 F-16s worth $90 million. Earlier in 2009, Chile purchased 18 F-16 aircraft from the Netherlands in a contract worth $270 million.
> 
> *In 2011, Pakistan requested the sale of an undisclosed number of used F-16s from the U.S to increase its air capabilities.*
> 
> &#8220;Because of the disparity with India, our needs are huge,&#8221; a diplomat was quoted as saying. &#8220;Ideally, we should buy new F-16s but the current economy does not allow us to pay $40-50 million apiece&#8221;.
> 
> The same year, Indonesia agreed to buy 24 aircraft from the U.S with the first batch of 14 expected to be delivered in 2014.
> 
> Romania also purchased 24 used jets from the U.S in 2010. "We have no money and we cannot commit ourselves to such a contract without a long-term financing scheme,&#8221; said Romanian President Traian Basescu, after European groups Eurofighter and Saab criticized the transaction.
> 
> While the buyers are walking, or rather flying away with the low-cost, used F-16s, the sellers (Portugal, U.S, Netherlands, etc.) are also making a small profit that will be used to procure new replacements.
> 
> Taiwan, for instance, has awarded Lockheed Martin a $1.85 billion contract to upgrade the avionics of 145 Taiwanese Lockheed Martin F-16 A/B aircraft. Meanwhile, it is also currently negotiating with the U.S for the sale of used F-16C/D and intends to submit a letter of request (LoR) soon.
> 
> By Bindiya Thomas



Will Second-Hand F-16 Sales Rise With Budget Cuts? : Defense news


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## Najam Khan

BATMAN said:


> Can any one confirm the bold comments from lady bindiya?
> 
> Will Second-Hand F-16 Sales Rise With Budget Cuts? : Defense news



Albeit she has made that sentence look suspicious, I believe she is referring to the 14 EDA F-16 under going negotiations.


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## air marshal

*October 13, 2009:* PAF accepts first F-16 from Peace Drive order.


----------



## soul hacker

Block 52+'s..

courtesy: Irtiza Ali

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## fatman17

Najam Khan said:


> Albeit she has made that sentence look suspicious, I believe she is referring to the 14 EDA F-16 under going negotiations.



correct!!!


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## Windjammer

*Wing Commander Ali Naeem No.11 Squadron ''Arrows'' 2000+ Hours on F-16. He was the Demo pilot during Izmir air show Turkey.*

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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day

&#8220;I'm not speeding! I'm just flying low.&#8221; 
-- Bumper sticker*

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## Mughal-Prince

JPMM said:


> Gentleman
> 
> It is too late for Pakistan to by the 12 Portuguese Air Force F16AM/BM that are for sale. The Romanians and Bulgarians are negotiating, last week the Romanian MOD announced that they would by them for 600 Million Dollars. I remember you that the development of the MLU program is now being headed by the Portuguese with the M6.1 Tape. There was an approach by the Pakistan Government asking for information, but the Romanians send a team to Portugal for inspection and concluded that the aircraft were in very good shape. These were the best aircraft the Portuguese Technicians had found in AMARC.
> They are already upgraded to the M5.2 Tape.
> 
> I remember that you could by the Venezuelan F16s and upgrade them here to the M6.1 standard here in Portugal.
> 
> M6.1 means:
> &#61607;	Improved IFF system (Mode 5 waveform with better distinction between friendly and enemy aircraft)
> &#61607;	Introduction of AIM-120D missile (two-way datalink, improved navigation and High-Angle Off-Boresight capabilities, a doubled range)
> &#61607;	Introduction of more advanced A/G weapons (GBU-39 SDB, GBU-54 LJDAM)
> &#61607;	Integration of improved Link-16 functions with net-centric capability
> &#61607;	Integration of a new Universal Armament Interface to standardize communication between the aircraft and the weapons, illuminating the need for new OPF tapes with every new weapon system
> 
> The Netherlands also have F16 for sale, they are selling them cheaper but with more airframe hours and less lifetime.
> 
> Greetings from Portugal



If we simply calculate this 600 million $ for 12 pieces then it says about 50 million $ a piece  ... isn't it well equal to the price of a new F-16 Blk 52+ lately we get from USA


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## fatman17

princeiftikharmirza said:


> If we simply calculate this 600 million $ for 12 pieces then it says about 50 million $ a piece  ... isn't it well equal to the price of a new F-16 Blk 52+ lately we get from USA



its better to get EDA stocks which come free of cost (except for transport costs) and then one has to pay for the MLU kit only.


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## fatman17

*Today in history

20 Oct 1976 

Rollout of F-16A FSD no. 1 (#75-0745), the first full-scale development aircraft, at Fort Worth.*


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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer



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## Najam Khan

*Photo Flight of No.11 Sqn &#8220;Arrows&#8221; F-16s during 2008.*

F-16A 84707 &#8211; Wg Cdr Ali Naeem
F-16A 83703 &#8211; Sqn Ldr Nauman
F-16B &#8211; Chase Pilot &#8211; Wg Cdr Sulehri

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## JPMM

fatman17 said:


> its better to get EDA stocks which come free of cost (except for transport costs) and then one has to pay for the MLU kit only.



According to information you have here in the forum, the PAF paid 1.3 Billion $ for 60 MLU kits, this is almost half of the price of the aircraft.

Greetings


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## Jango

Why is the canopy colour of one F-16 a bit pale-brownish? F-16 #84707 to be precise.


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## baqai

if i am not wrong goldinish canopy is used to protect against radiation, this might indicate that the jet is intended to be used where the danger of radiation might happen (nuke delivery?) correct me if i am wrong


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## Windjammer

My understanding is that it's coated with Radar absorbent material.


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> My understanding is that it's coated with Radar absorbent material.



That was my first thought , like the F-22. But then, why not the other jet and most others we see?

Or is there a specific jet for a special operation or something?


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## baqai

from what i have read, it is a special tint which is easily prone to scratches and hard to maintain, although later on instead of tint the canopy itself was tinted, the main function seems to keep pilot safe from radiation, it can either be from jamming or from a nuclear blast.


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## VCheng

Last Hope said:


> I believe it is anti-radiation coat.
> 
> It could very well be to protect the pilots from IR radiations or could be used to lower the RCS. I think it's the first one.



A very thin film of vaporized gold imparts that color. It is used to reduce the transmission of certain frequencies, protecting the pilot from his own jamming pods, and by reducing internal leakage to the outside, by acting as a sort of Faraday cage.

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## Jango

Again the question, why only this aircraft? Is there a dedicated strike aircraft for the role in the PAF? Like a specific serial number? So that a little extra is done on that example.


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## Last Hope

F-16A Block-15E belonging to No.11 Squadron 'Arrows' was the first F-16 delivered to Pakistan Air Force (on September 24, 1982). After 12 years of service it crashed facing a bird hit on October 22, 1994 near PAF Base Mushaf, Sargodha. The pilot, Flt Lt Waqar, ejected safely.

Sixth F-16 crash of PAF. 18 years today.


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## mylovepakistan



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## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> Why is the canopy colour of one F-16 a bit pale-brownish? F-16 #84707 to be precise.



indium-tin-oxide layer to the gold tinted cockpit canopy..initial have-glass I

Some of our F-16's have the older canopies which have the older Have glass-I canopy, and others that have the newer ones which "may" still have the InO layer but are light gray to almost transparent.

Although you may be aware but for general public consumption(or rather people who are smart enough to read through older posts)..the canopy serves three main purposes.

*reduces radar reflection 
*Reduces sun glare (UV resistant)
*Tends to turn dark in the presence of a nuclear blast to shield the pilots eyes.

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## Armstrong

Oscar said:


> indium-tin-oxide layer to the gold tinted cockpit canopy..initial have-glass I
> 
> Some of our F-16's have the older canopies which have the older Have glass-I canopy, and others that have the newer ones which "may" still have the InO layer but are light gray to almost transparent.
> 
> Although you may be aware but for general public consumption(or rather people who are smart enough to read through older posts)..the canopy serves three main purposes.
> 
> *reduces radar reflection
> *Reduces sun glare (UV resistant)
> *Tends to turn dark in the presence of a nuclear blast to shield the pilots eyes.



Do we have the ability to make them at home for the Jf-17s or does China ?


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## Najam Khan

Oscar said:


> *indium-tin-oxide layer to the gold tinted cockpit canopy.*.initial have-glass I



In the early 80s, F-16s canopy consisted of one layer of polycarbonate (monolithic polycarbonate), Later on multi layered canopies constructed from an outer layer of acrylic and inner layer of polycarbonate was introduced.

The multilayered canopy provides more safety to the pilot from FOD. The outer layer shatters with impact of bird strike, whereas the inner layer makes a shield of the characteristic wave. You have already written other features

Checkout this document for details on this subject.


*AN EXPERIMENTAL EVALUATION OF THE IMPACT RESISTANCE OF
RECOATED F-16A MONOLITHIC POLYCARBONATE FLAT SHEET*

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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day

&#8220;Fight to fly, fly to fight, fight to win.&#8221; 

-- Motto, U.S. Navy Fighter Weapons School (TOPGUN)*

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## Windjammer

*
Low 'n Behold....I would say 500 Feet.*

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## Thorough Pro

Is this an F7?


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## Windjammer

Conceal Carry said:


> Is this an F7?



F-7 doesn't have wing tip rails. It's an F-16 .


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## Jango

Oscar said:


> indium-tin-oxide layer to the gold tinted cockpit canopy..initial have-glass I
> 
> Some of our F-16's have the older canopies which have the older Have glass-I canopy, and others that have the newer ones which "may" still have the InO layer but are light gray to almost transparent.



So old ones have gold color, while the newer have almost transparent color.

This aircraft was procured in 1984 according to the serial number.


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> *
> Low 'n Behold....I would say 500 Feet.*



Don't those missile fins look a bit 'crude'?

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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Don't those missile fins look a bit 'crude'?



Rust actually. The F-16 must have been kept out in rains and sunny days with this AIM-9L on it, and it must be surely very old. 

But as long as it is Blue stripped, it's okay!

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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> But as long as it is Blue stripped, it's okay!



And blue stripe means what?

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## Bratva

nuclearpak said:


> And blue stripe means what?



Training or Practice round.

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## Jango

A quick search on the net, and a Blue stripe means training.

Yellow means live electronic systems (seeker). Brown stripe means live ammunition.

Seeker-warhead-propellant.

Seeker yellow for live, other two will be brown.

Blue will be for inert on all three.

So, maybe the fins are rusted because the seeker is actually a dud, and not the real thing?

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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> A quick search on the net, and a Blue stripe means training.
> 
> Yellow means live electronic systems (seeker). Brown stripe means live ammunition.
> 
> Seeker-warhead-propellant.
> 
> Seeker yellow for live, other two will be brown.
> 
> Blue will be for inert on all three.
> 
> *So, maybe the fins are rusted because the seeker is actually a dud, and not the real thing?*



According to logic, the Blue stripped missiles would not be given as maintenance as Yellow ones. It is just for pilot training, while the Yellow stripped missiles would be kept safely away from any disturbance. Let's say due to this factor, the F-16 was outside hangar during rain, the steel presence on the canards got rusted.


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> According to logic, the Blue stripped missiles would not be given as maintenance as Yellow ones. It is just for pilot training, while the Yellow stripped missiles would be kept safely away from any disturbance. Let's say due to this factor, the F-16 was outside hangar during rain, the steel presence on the canards got rusted.



Is that seeker a real seeker or a dud?


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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Is that seeker a real seeker or a dud?


Seeker is alive. That's for target practice, your combat with your colleagues. 

It's the motor and explosives that is not.


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> Seeker is alive. That's for target practice, your combat with your colleagues.
> 
> It's the motor and explosives that is not.



Clears up my confusion.

But then, what is the difference between a seeker with blue band and yellow band? Only the purpose of the missile?


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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Clears up my confusion.
> 
> But then, what is the difference between a seeker with blue band and yellow band? Only the purpose of the missile?



Yes. It would be more appropriate to say 'Missile' with a blue or yellow band, not 'Seeker'.


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## airmarshal

Those fins are removable. So dont read too much into their condition. The live weapons are not kept in elements.


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> Yes. It would be more appropriate to say 'Missile' with a blue or yellow band, not 'Seeker'.



Well, I have read from a couple of places that there are three parts, Warhead, popellant and seeker. Warhead and propulsion are brown for armed and live, while seeker is yellow.

Blue is same for all.



> It's usually three parts: seeker-warhead-propellant. Each section has a stripe. If all three stripes are blue, or the whole missile is blue, then each part is inert. If the frontmost stripe is yellow, and the next two brown that means it's a live round. Yellow stripe for live electronics, and the two browns for live combustibles-warhead and propellant. Some rounds are yellow-blue-blue, meaning they have an active seeker head for tone, but they cannot be launched.
> http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-563.html



And also same from a couple of other websites.

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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Well, I have read from a couple of places that there are three parts, Warhead, popellant and seeker. Warhead and propulsion are brown for armed and live, while seeker is yellow.
> 
> Blue is same for all.
> 
> 
> 
> And also same from a couple of other websites.



Exactly what I am talking about, if all strips are blue, then call the missile blue, you just called the seeker blue. Hope this clears confusion.


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> *
> Low 'n Behold....I would say 500 Feet.*



Those fins are rusted, signs of long term storage and possibly reduction in missile performance reliability.


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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> Those fins are rusted, signs of long term storage and possibly reduction in missile performance reliability.



But members are of the opinion that it's only a training round. ?? !!


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> Exactly what I am talking about, if all strips are blue, then call the missile blue, you just called the seeker blue. Hope this clears confusion.



Hehe, so that's the problem!!!

It was because I only see the seeker in the picture!


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## Jango

This image shows better the point I am trying to make.

The 3 blue stripes on the AIM-120, denoting all three parts.

On the AIM-9, there is one blue and orange. Showing which part is live and which is not.

The orange should be brown, like in this picture.






Here, the front most stripe is yellow, indicating live electronics. This missile is ready to go!


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## Jango

Multiple ejector racks.

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## Edevelop



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## Edevelop

Windjammer said:


> *
> PAF Work Station*



Nice view!

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## Tehmasib



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## Tehmasib



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## fatman17

April 4/07: FRP-4. A $68.8 million indefinite-delivery/ indefinite-quantity, firm-fixed-price contract for Full Rate Production Lot 4 (FRP 4) of 321 JHMCS systems. The systems will be used on USAF F-15s and F-16s, MACH Brooks, the USN&#8217;s F/A-18 platforms, and foreign military sales to Poland (F-16s), Belgium (F-16s), Pakistan (F-16s), Greece (F-16s), Royal Australian Air Force (F/A-18s), Switzerland (F/A-18s), and Canada (F/A-18s). At this time, total funds have been obligated. Work will be complete December 2009 (F33657-01-D-0026/Delivery Order 0058).

June 28/06: Pakistan request. Pakistan requests 36 JHMCS as part of a $3 billion, 36-plane order for F-16 C/D aircraft, plus up to 60 more as part of an F-16 mid-life upgrade kit deal for their existing fleet worth another $1.3 billion. See: &#8220;$5.1B Proposed in Sales, Upgrades, Weapons for Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s&#8221;

The goal is to provide war fighters with image-intensified night vision, integrated with standard HMD symbology and Line of Sight (LOS). Projected information includes weapons status and aiming, target cueing and aircraft state parameters embedded in the night vision scene. VSI&#8217;s NVCD QuadEye is fully a lightweight, well-balanced, modular package that provides a 40- by 40-degree night field-of-view (FOV) in standard configuration, or optionally can be easily expanded to 100- by 40-degree FOV. As JHMCS is a modular &#8220;day&#8221; system, the current Display Unit can be quickly exchanged with NVCD&#8217;s QuadEye Night Vision Display Unit to support round-the-clock missions.

DiD

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## SQ8

Please use the dedicated photoshop thread for PSs.
DO NOT POST THEM IN THESE THREADS.

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## fatman17

cb4 said:


> Nice view!



just realised thats my village!

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## hassan1



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## Meejee

nuclearpak said:


> This image shows better the point I am trying to make.
> 
> The 3 blue stripes on the AIM-120, denoting all three parts.
> 
> On the AIM-9, there is one blue and orange. Showing which part is live and which is not.
> 
> !



Is that a pod on the right side of the intake and if yes, what type? Also, what are those two red rectangles on the rear of the spine of the F-16


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## Last Hope

Meejee said:


> Is that a pod on the right side of the intake and if yes, what type? Also, what are those two red rectangles on the rear of the spine of the F-16


The first one is a sniping pod, while the 'red rectangles' are the Chaff/Flare system.

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## SEAL

Just finished watching Seal team 6 and it shows our F-16s are still very potent and can be very dangerous for any adversary. 
USAF F-15s gave warning return to base or you will be engaged and they did return .


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## Tehmasib

ess piyar ko mane kia naam duon

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## Najam Khan

Gentlemen, Please discuss OBL operation somewhere else.

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## air marshal

*November 9, 1983: PAF accepts first F-16 from Peace Gate II order.*


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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day

&#8220;Speed is life, altitude is life insurance.&#8221; 
-- Unknown*

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## MastanKhan

Najam Khan said:


> Gentlemen, Please discuss OBL operation somewhere else.




Sir,

Please tell RIVER INDUS to flow within its banks.

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## Windjammer

_A rare shot of PAF F-16 with LGBs. _

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## Bratva

Windjammer said:


> _A rare shot of PAF F-16 with LGBs. _




Shot is taken in America.

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## Jango

Interesting to see that the seats are also covered. Anybody know the reason? Ejection system?


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## Cent4

F-16 getting paint job 









[/IMG]

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## fatman17

*ITT Exelis completes advanced electronic warfare testing for Pakistan&#8217;s F-16 upgrade*


20 November 2012 


The ITT Exelis-built ALQ-211 Advanced Defensive Electronic Warfare System (AIDEWS) has successfully completed electromagnetic compatibility testing, as part of qualification process for the Pakistan Air Force's F-16 fighter upgrade programme.

Conducted at Edwards Air Force Base (AFB) in California, the six-week tests were carried out on simultaneously operating multiple radio frequency systems in an AIDEWS pod-equipped F-16 aircraft.

The resulting pod antenna patterns on the aircraft were subsequently measured by the ITT team along with system interoperability between the AIDEWS jamming pod, fire control radar and ALR-69 radar warning receiver.

Exelis Electronic Systems AIDEWS business area lead Stuart Altman said: "This kind of comprehensive testing shows we already have a well-integrated, effective system to protect the F-16, and we'll be using the results of this testing to make the system even better."

The chamber-based testing was conducted by the company in an effort to ensure efficient operation of the pod with other aircraft systems, and also confirm simultaneous individual operations of the systems without interfering with one another.

Enabling the company to decrease the amount of flight testing required for AIDEWS performance verification, the testing also lowers cost and time for the system's qualification.

Derived from the ALQ-211 (V) 4 system, the AIDEWS is an integrated digital radar warning receiver and advanced jamming countermeasures system designed to improve pilots' situational awareness and protection against radar-based threats, including modern surface-to-air and air-to-air weapon systems.

Over 180 AIDEWS systems are currently under contract for six nations as part of the F-16 foreign military sales programme, while 140 systems have already been delivered along with continuous software support to customers worldwide.

AIDEWS is installed aboard the F-16 fighters of US, Chile, Poland, Turkey and Pakistan air forces, and can also be integrated into the NH-90 helicopter, V-22 Osprey, MH-47, and MH-60 Black Hawk helicopters, as well as several commercial platforms.

Image: A Pakistan Air Force's AIDEWS-equipped F-16 fighter during electromagnetic compatibility testing. Photo: ITT Exelis, 2011

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## TOPGUN

Windjammer said:


> _A rare shot of PAF F-16 with LGBs. _



Awsome and rare pic forusre thanks so much for sharing bro


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## Fleet Master

Looks cool..LGB looks kinda old though.. still cool


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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


> _A rare shot of PAF F-16 with LGBs. _







danger-zone said:


> *AND HERE YOU GO FELLAS*
> 
> *F-16BM-622 with GBU-24, Sniper POD and Wing-tip rail LAU-129*


http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...tan-f-16-discussions-2-a-387.html#post3122412

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## Dazzler

ITT Exelis successfully completes AIDEWS testing at Edwards Air Force Base

CLIFTON, N.J., Nov. 19, 2012 - ITT Exelis (NYSE: XLS) has completed extensive electromagnetic compatibility testing of its Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite, or AIDEWS, at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif. AIDEWS provides pilots with situational awareness and protection against radar-based threats, including modern surface-to-air and air-to-air weapon systems.

The testing, part of the qualification process for the Pakistan F-16 upgrade program, was conducted to ensure AIDEWS will work with other systems integrated into the aircraft, and verify that the multiple systems will not interfere with one another. This chamber-based testing also helps to reduce the amount of flight testing needed to verify the electronic warfare system&#8217;s performance, reducing cost and time to qualify a system.

Six weeks of testing, at Edwards AFB, was performed on multiple radio frequency systems operating simultaneously in an F-16 carrying the AIDEWS pod. The team measured pod antenna patterns on the F-16, as well as system interoperability between the AIDEWS jamming pod, fire control radar and ALR-69 Radar Warning Receiver.

&#8220;This milestone speaks volumes about our system&#8217;s capability and maturity,&#8221; said Stuart Altman, Exelis Electronic Systems business area lead for AIDEWS. &#8220;This kind of comprehensive testing shows we already have a well-integrated, effective system to protect the F-16, and we&#8217;ll be using the results of this testing to make the system even better.&#8221;

AIDEWS is built upon the proven ALQ-211 family of electronic warfare systems now in use to support a broad range of U.S. and allied defense customers on many aircraft. The system is currently in full production with more than 160 systems under contract for six nations as part of the F-16 Foreign Military Sales program.

pic:
http://www.exelisinc.com/news/pressr...AIDEWS_F16.jpg

http://www.exelisinc.com/News/PressR...orce-Base.aspx

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## Windjammer

*
Found this rare HUD shot from a PAF F-16, shooting down a Russian SU-25 on the night of April 8th, 1988, by Squadron Leader Athar Bokhari.
*

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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> *
> Found this rare HUD shot from a PAF F-16, shooting down a Russian SU-25 on the night of April 8th, 1988, by Squadron Leader Athar Bokhari.
> *








Wing section of the shot down Sukhoi.

'Edited'

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## DANGER-ZONE

nuclearpak said:


> Tail of the shot down Sukhoi.
> 
> I believe this is from where 14 sqn got the name 'Tail choppers'.



Its not the tail but the portion of main wing.

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## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> Wing section of the shot down Sukhoi.
> 
> I believe this is from where 14 sqn got the name 'Tail choppers'.


Nope.. that nickname is from the operations taken against Kalikunda airfield by the 14th sq when it was based in Dhaka during the 65 war..

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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> Tail of the shot down Sukhoi.
> 
> I believe this is from where 14 sqn got the name 'Tail choppers'.



Nopes, No 14 Sqn earned it's nickname back in 1965 when it decimated IAF Canberra bombers that were neatly lined up at their Kalaikunda air base as depicted in the Hussaini painting.

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## Jango

Thanks for the correction! I always thought it was a tail and the reason for the name!


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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> Thanks for the correction! I always thought it was a tail and the reason for the name!



That is actually the wing section of the SU-25. !!


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> That is actually the wing section of the SU-25. !!



Yeah, I previously thought of it as a tail of the Su 25 that was shot down on that fateful night.

Another thing is that the pilot became the vice-president of Russia and came to Pakistan later on a official visit.



> The wreckage of the shot down aircraft was located, but not the pilot. The tribal people caught him the next evening and handed him over to the authorities. *His name was Colonel Alexander Rutskoi who later became the Vice President of the Russian Federation.*
> 
> History of PIA - Forum :: View topic - Shooting Down the First Soviet Su-25 - August 4, 1988

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## TOPGUN

You know out of topic here but i would really like to see some SU-25''s in PAF it could be a good aircraft for WOT any thoughts?


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## Imran Khan

TOPGUN said:


> You know out of topic here but i would really like to see some SU-25''s in PAF it could be a good aircraft for WOT any thoughts?



sir we have so much light weight iin inventory already .thunders can do more better with light weapons


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## TOPGUN

Imran Khan said:


> sir we have so much light weight iin inventory already .thunders can do more better with light weapons



Imran have you seen the amount of hard points and the amount of wepons it can carry it's an amazing little aircraft would be perfect for the task we seek in WOT and even actual war.

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## Imran Khan

TOPGUN said:


> Imran have you seen the amount of hard points and the amount of wepons it can carry it's an amazing little aircraft would be perfect for the task we seek in WOT and even actual war.



i agree sir but we can't do it you know it i know it well. in real life we can have multiple ejector racks on thunder and load on them whatever we need that is in real world sir .

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## TOPGUN

Imran Khan said:


> i agree sir but we can't do it you know it i know it well. in real life we can have multiple ejector racks on thunder and load on them whatever we need that is in real world sir .




Agreed ... however, imran i was also talking about in real world yaar kahir yes thunder shall do the job .


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## mylovepakistan



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## Imran Khan

TOPGUN said:


> Agreed ... however, imran i was also talking about in real world yaar kahir yes thunder shall do the job .



at this time our own beloved falcons doing it with multiple ejector racks

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## TOPGUN

Imran is banned?????????? what happend? sorry not on topic but just wondering?


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## imiakhtar

Nice to see the F-16 upgrades coming along:

_ITT Exelis has completed electromagnetic testing of the AN/ALQ-211 (V)9 for use aboard 41 Pakistan air force Lockheed Martin F-16s.

The AN/ALQ-211 (V)9 is a pod-mounted advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare suite (AIDEWS) derived from the AN/ALQ-211 (V)4, which is mounted internally. The testing was conducted at Edwards Air Force Base in California.

The (V)4 is compatible with post-Block 50 F-16s, which are designed to accommodate internal electronic warfare systems. Islamabad's 18 Block 52 F-16s received this system under the Peace Drive I programme, which was signed in 2008.

Peace Drive II, an amendment to Peace Drive I, included a pod-mounted version of the system for use on pre-Block 50 F-16s, of which Pakistan operates 41. 

The AN/ALQ-211 system includes a radar warning receiver, digital radio frequency memory jammer and electronic warfare suite controller.

The company will commence the production of AN/ALQ-211 (V)9 pods from next year. It says the target market for the system comprises pre-Block 50 F-16s. 

ITT Exelis adds that the (V)9 and (V)4 systems share 100% commonality, which it claims eases logistics support for the system. 
_

ITT Exelis completes electromagnetic testing of Pakistan F-16s' EW pods

_CLIFTON, N.J., Nov. 19, 2012 - ITT Exelis (NYSE: XLS) has completed extensive electromagnetic compatibility testing of its Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite, or AIDEWS, at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif. AIDEWS provides pilots with situational awareness and protection against radar-based threats, including modern surface-to-air and air-to-air weapon systems.



The testing, part of the qualification process for the Pakistan F-16 upgrade program, was conducted to ensure AIDEWS will work with other systems integrated into the aircraft, and verify that the multiple systems will not interfere with one another. This chamber-based testing also helps to reduce the amount of flight testing needed to verify the electronic warfare system&#8217;s performance, reducing cost and time to qualify a system.


Six weeks of testing, at Edwards AFB, was performed on multiple radio frequency systems operating simultaneously in an F-16 carrying the AIDEWS pod. The team measured pod antenna patterns on the F-16, as well as system interoperability between the AIDEWS jamming pod, fire control radar and ALR-69 Radar Warning Receiver.


&#8220;This milestone speaks volumes about our system&#8217;s capability and maturity,&#8221; said Stuart Altman, Exelis Electronic Systems business area lead for AIDEWS. &#8220;This kind of comprehensive testing shows we already have a well-integrated, effective system to protect the F-16, and we&#8217;ll be using the results of this testing to make the system even better.&#8221;


AIDEWS is built upon the proven ALQ-211 family of electronic warfare systems now in use to support a broad range of U.S. and allied defense customers on many aircraft. The system is currently in full production with more than 160 systems under contract for six nations as part of the F-16 Foreign Military Sales program._

http://www.exelisinc.com/News/Press...AIDEWS-testing-at-Edwards-Air-Force-Base.aspx

http://imageshack.us/f/211/aidewsf16.jpg/

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## Najam Khan

F-16 MLU by TAI, Turkey. PAF's F-16 update will have Sniper pod update instead of Litening III.

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## Thunder_Rider

I say Sorry for posting it again if someone had already posted it before....... if not then Plz Enjoy 

PAFs' Specials Interview: Pakistan Air Force Viper Pilot
by Moaz Ateeq on Tuesday, October 9, 2012 at 3:31am ·
Q 1: What is a PAF F-16 pilot doing in Turkey?

A: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and the Turkish Air Force (TuAF) have a long-standing pilot exchange programme, which goes back a couple of decades under which, at any given time, two PAF pilots are in Turkey and two TuAF pilots are in Pakistan. Since the PAF and the TuAF share two common aircraft &#8211; the T-37 trainer and the F-16 &#8211; both countries exchange pilots on the each of these aircraft. So right now we have one PAF pilot flying TuAF T-37s and another PAF pilot flying TuAF F-16s in Turkey and one TuAF pilot flying PAF T-37s and one Tu-AF pilot flying PAF F-16s in Pakistan.

Q 2: How long is the duration of the secondment?

A: The average secondment is 2 years, but it could be less or more depending on various factors.

Q 3: What is the basis for PAF&#8217;s selection of a pilot for secondment to the TuAF F-16 squadrons?

A: The selection is done by the PAF and is based purely on merit. They start with your academy reports and the final report is given by your squadron commander. The TuAF requirement is that the pilot must have a minimum of 250 hours on the F-16 before joining the TuAF F-16 squadrons.

Q 4: What is the PAF criterion for selecting a pilot for its F-16 squadrons?

A: A pilot must have an outstanding record and a minimum of 500 hours on either the F-7 or the Mirages or both aircraft. Additionally, he must have the right aptitude and the ability to learn and apply his learning. The F-16 is not a simple aircraft to fly. Usually, most pilots go from the F-7 to the Mirages before coming to the F-16. This route washes out the weaker pilots.

Q 5: Which route did you follow?

A: I went straight to the F-16 after logging 450 hours on the F-7P.

Q 6: Which PAF F-16 squadron were you flying with before secondment to the TuAF?

A: No. 9 Squadron &#8220;Griffins&#8221;.

Q 7: What squadrons and what airbases do you fly out of in Turkey?

A: I have flown from different airbases with different squadrons on different F-16 types and this depends on the mission training that is being undertaken at a given time. I have served at two air bases &#8211; Mirzofen and Balekesir.

Q 8: What F-16 Blocks have you flown in Turkey?

A: I have flown all three TuAF F-16 Blocks - the Blocks 30, 40 and 50. I am the second PAF exchange pilot to have flown the TuAF Block 50 as previously the Turks did not give PAF pilots access to the Block 50.

Q 9: Why was that?

A: US restrictions. However, once the sanctions were lifted and talks began to purchase Block 52s for the PAF, it no longer remained an issue because we would be flying a more advanced version than the Turks. That&#8217;s when the US allowed the Turks to give us access to the Block 50. The Turks have been very cooperative with the PAF.

Q 10: What kind of mission training did you get on the TuAF F-16s?

A: We are trained for all types of missions since most TuAF F-16s squadrons are multi-role. However, I was primarily trained for air-to-air combat in the air defence role.

Q 11: Any BVR training?

A: Yes.

Q 12: Which BVR missile?

A: The AIM-120 AMRAAM &#8220;Charlie&#8221;.

Q 13: What are the differences in training methodologies between the PAF and TuAF?

A: There are substantial differences. TuAF follows the US and NATO training methodologies where everything is written down and you have to follow set procedures. This is not necessarily bad because these procedures are based on experience. They learnt this after their experience in air-to-air combat in Vietnam. However, the downside is that you tend to get bogged down into following procedures and you become predictable. In the PAF, pilots are given more freedom to come up with their own solutions. Our training approach is more similar to the Israelis than NATO. We do more &#8220;seat of the pants&#8221; type of flying and are required to be more creative.
Q 14: Have you taken part in any Anatolian Eagle exercise?

A: PAF has been participating in the annual Anatolian Eagle exercises since 2004. I have participated in three Anatolian Eagles &#8211; one national and two international.

Q 15: What is the difference between national and international?

A: TuAF conducts annual Anatolian Eagle exercises - one version is national, for TuAF only and the other is international, with friendly air forces. TuAF has honoured the PAF by also letting its pilots fly in the national Anatolian Eagle exercises under Turkish command and wearing Turkish flags and badges. This is a unique honour given only to PAF pilots. The exchange pilots also get to fly TuAF F-16s in the Anatolian Eagle international exercises. So you could have 6 visiting PAF pilots flying their own PAF F-16s and the one PAF exchange pilot flying with the Turks in a TuAF F-16.

Q 16: Any memorable experiences that you would like to share?

A: On one occasion &#8211; in one of the international Anatolian Eagles - PAF pilots were pitted against RAF Typhoons, a formidable aircraft. There were three set-ups and in all three, we shot down the Typhoons. The RAF pilots were shocked.

Q 17: Any particular reason for your success?

A: NATO pilots are not that proficient in close-in air-to-air combat. They are trained for BVR engagements and their tactics are based on BVR engagements. These were close-in air combat exercises and we had the upper hand because close-in air combat is drilled into every PAF pilot and this is something we are very good at.

Q 18: Israel has also participated in some Anatolian Eagles. Any opportunity to fly with or against the Israelis?

A: Turkey ensures that the Israeli AF and the PAF are kept as far apart from each other as possible and this has more to do with the Israeli AF&#8217;s reluctance to be part of any military exercise involving the PAF than vice versa. The Israelis have told the Turks that they don&#8217;t want any Pakistani on or near a base in which the Israelis are stationed.

Q 19: What are the Isrealis afraid of?

A: What they fear most is that we might learn about their tactics, especially BVR countermeasure tactics, which they have mastered.

Q 20: I heard a rumour that the TuAF once gave PAF pilots the opportunity to fly with and against the Israelis in A. TuAF F-16s pretending to be Turkish pilots &#8211; even letting them sit in the Turkish-Israeli ACMI de-briefs?
No comments.

Q 21: Are the Turks interested in the JF-17?

A: They are intrigued by it and very happy with what Pakistan has been able to achieve.

Q 22: Any chance of them placing orders?

A: There is no indication of that. They are not in the same situation as us. Being NATO members, they have many choices. They are producing the F-16, so while they are happy for Pakistan, I don&#8217;t think they will be purchasing the JF-17 as their requirements are already fulfilled by the F-16.

Q 23: What about replacing their ageing F-5?

A: They will probably replace the F-5s with F-16s and go for the F-35 as their hi-tech fighter.
Q 24: What&#8217;s after Turkey?

A: I will transfer to PAF Shahbaz, Jacobabad this summer for conversion to the Block 52s.

Q 25: Who will do the conversion training?

A: The conversion will be done by PAF pilots who are currently undergoing conversion training in the USA and will be returning to Pakistan in a few months time.

Q 26: Do you think you will have an edge over other PAF pilots are being picked from local squadrons?

A: Not only will I have an edge, I will be responsible for assisting the Block 52 instructors based on my experience with the Block 50.
Q 27: The publicly-available videos and photographs recently released by Lockheed Martin show the first PAF Block 52 C/Ds without conformal fuel tanks (CFTs). Can you confirm whether the PAF aircraft are coming with CFTs?

A: Yes. All 18 Block 52s will be fitted with CFTs when they are released to the PAF, which is expected to be in June this year. The CFTs are detachable &#8220;add-ons&#8221; and it is not necessary for the PAF to always fly with them. The CFTs can be attached and detached to suit PAF&#8217;s needs at any given time.

Q 28: One of the stories going around is that the Block 52s are coming with strings attached: (i) the PAF can only base them in one airbase, Jacobabad; (ii) they cannot be used for offensive operations beyond Pakistan&#8217;s borders; (iii) some sort of monitoring mechanisms will be put in place to monitor the location of each aircraft and (iv) PAF cannot take them outside Pakistan without the permission of the US. Are these correct?

A: To some extent, yes. However, it is important to understand the background to these conditions.
When the PAF asked for the Block 52, the initial US reaction was &#8220;no&#8221;. Their main concern was that if this potent technology could be released to Pakistan, sooner or later, it would end up in the hands of the Chinese who would reverse engineer it. It was the PAF that offered a solution. We could place the Block 52s in a separate airbase where the Chinese would have no access. This meant an airbase that had no Chinese aircraft. We could not base them in Sargodha because we would not deny the Chinese access to our most important airbase. Jacobabad was a forward base which had been revamped by the Americans for Operation Enduring Freedom, including a new first-class runway, so it was the first choice. The US agreed to this proposal provided that it would have the right to monitor the aircraft.

To recall an interesting little story: soon after the first F-16s were delivered to Pakistan in the mid-80s, the PLAAF Chief visited Sargodha. The Americans were there as well. As a gesture of courtesy, the PAF showed the PLAAF Chief one of the F-16s and let him sit in the cockpit. Some US technicians were there looking on. As soon as the PLAAF Chief sat in the F-16 cockpit, the first thing he did was to start measuring the HUD with his fingers, you know, when you extend your little finger and thumb to measure something? This worried the Americans.

Q 29: What are the monitoring mechanisms? I have heard they will have US personnel stationed at Jacobabad?

A: The US personnel stationed at Jacobabad will be transitional. They will be training PAF aircrew on the maintenance of the Block 52. Most of these US personnel will be from Lockheed Martin. The US does not need to have personnel physically present in Jacobabad to monitor the Block 52s.
Q 30: Could you elaborate?

A: They have ways of keeping an eye on the Block 52s without being personally present. The main concern is the transfer of cutting-edge technology &#8211; the avionics and radar, the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS) the Sniper pod. They have put digital seals all the sensitive technologies, which can only be opened via a code, which only they know. If there is a malfunction or these parts need to be serviced, they will be taken out of the Block 52s and shipped back to the US for repairs/servicing. If we try to pry open these systems without the codes, inbuilt alarms will be relayed to the Americans, which will be a breach of the contract.

Q 31: Will the Americans be able to track the locations of the Block 52s through some sort of tracking devices hidden inside the aircraft?

A: If there are tracking devices then they will be inside the sealed systems, like the avionics suites or the sniper pods because we will not have the ability to look inside. If their Predator and Reaper drones are transmitting their GPS locations via satellite so can a Block 52 F-16.

Even though Turkey produces the F-16, there are some components that are manufactured in the US and only come to Turkey for the final assembly. In one incident, a Turkish Block 50 crashed and the pilot was killed. They salvaged the wreckage and laid it out in hanger and started putting together the pieces to find out the cause. They found a piece of sealed equipment which had cracked open and inside they found some device that looked like a bug. Upon inquiry, it turned out to be a tracking device.

Q 32: Doesn&#8217;t that worry the PAF?

A: I&#8217;m sure it does. However, the PAF considers the Block 52 a &#8220;bonus&#8221; aircraft. We are not depending on it for our entire air defence. It is a temporary force multiplier until we have enough squadrons of JF-17s and FC-20s. The opportunity to know what the latest technology is capable of is enough justification to purchase these aircraft.

Q 33: If the PAF cannot cross the border with these Block 52, what is the purpose of the Sniper pods and the air-to-ground munitions that we are getting?

A: Those are for use against terrorists who are waging a war against Pakistan. The fact is that the Block 52s will give us the capability to mount successful counter insurgency operations against terrorists in the tribal areas.

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## Jango

This interview has been previously shared i believe.


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## Armstrong

Najam Khan said:


> F-16 MLU by TAI, Turkey. PAF's F-16 update will have Sniper pod update instead of Litening III.



Does that mean we've got (or would be getting) between 80 or 90 F-16s that are either Block 52s or comparable in performance to them in many..many ways ! Or even after the MLUs the existing fleet isn't even remotely comparable to some of the newer blocks of the F-16 family ?


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## Last Hope

Armstrong said:


> Does that mean we've got (or would be getting) between 80 or 90 F-16s that are *either Block 52s or comparable in performance to them in many..many ways !* Or even after the MLUs the existing fleet isn't even remotely comparable to some of the newer blocks of the F-16 family ?


They are upgraded to Block-40 standards, and can be compared with Block-52 in many ways.

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## Najam Khan

Armstrong said:


> *Does that mean we've got (or would be getting) between 80 or 90 F-16s* that are either Block 52s or comparable in performance to them in many..many ways ! Or even after the MLUs the existing fleet isn't even remotely comparable to some of the newer blocks of the F-16 family ?



No, we will possibly get 14 more F-16s (which will be MUL'ed later), no new purchase is expected. Regarding their comparison with Bk52, its avionics and weapon configuration that is pretty much same but F16 Block52 is way better in metallurgy and air frame. 60% of Block52 has modular design (removable components), you can take-out any component you want and replace it, such ease of maintenance and flexibility in design is not present in previous versions.

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## Windjammer

Sorry for the poor quality, four F-16s line up ready to be launched from Sargodha Airbase.

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## Luftwaffe

Najam Khan said:


> No, we will possibly get 14 more F-16s (which will be MUL'ed later)



EDA Block 42s? or the ones sold to US Navy.


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## Last Hope

Luftwaffe said:


> EDA Block 42s? or the ones sold to US Navy.


The USN aircraft. According to The Washington, back in June/July 2012, this delivery was to start in December.


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## Thunder_Rider

What is difference b/w Sniper Pod and Litening III ?

Which one is better ?


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## Mani2020

Thunder_Rider said:


> What is difference b/w Sniper Pod and Litening III ?
> 
> Which one is better ?



according to an airforce pilot 



> having flown with both, sniper is waaaaaaayyyyyyy better. Better range, better a-a capes etc. The only drawback to sniper is that you have to know that you are looking through a "soda straw". I.E if you are right on top of the target and the coordinates are off...you may not see the target in the pod right away. In my humble opinion, litening is better for CAS and sniper is better for AI or A-A.



^^^ this might also tells you something about the capabilities of sniper over litening 

At the end of September 2010, the USAF dropped something of a bombshell. Under their $2.3 billion Advanced Targeting Pod &#8211; Sensor Enhancement (ATP-SE) contract, the service that had begun standardizing on one future surveillance and targeting pod type decided to change course, and split its buys.

This decision is a huge breakthrough for Northrop Grumman, *whose LITENING pod had lost the USAF&#8217;s initial 2001 Advanced Targeting Pod competition. As a result of that competition, the USAF&#8217;s buys had shifted from LITENING to Sniper pods, and Lockheed Martin&#8217;s Sniper became the pod of choice for integration onto new USAF platforms. *Since then, both of these pods have chalked up procurement wins around the world, and both manufacturers kept improving their products. That continued competition would eventually change the landscape once again&#8230;

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## Mani2020

this one too

*Lockheed Martin&#8217;s AN/AAQ-33 Sniper ATP was designed to be a major step-change from the firm&#8217;s twin-pod LANTIRN systems, making use of a low radar signature profile and an advanced array of sensors and electronics, in order to offer longer range detection and identification.* *It also has an important time and money-saving feature: a sort of universal interface, which self-detects the plane type it&#8217;s on and automatically load the appropriate Operational Flight Program*. It&#8217;s a simple change that saves a lot of money on testing and re-certiciation, as shown by the structure of the respective ATP-SE contracts.

Sniper ATP has also won competitions on straight performance.* The British, for instance, explicitly cited the pod&#8217;s stand off detection and identification ranges as the reason they chose to equip their Harriers with Sniper pods for Afghan missions, rather than buy more of the LITENING-III pods that already equipped their Tornado and Eurofighter jets.*

Key changes to the ATP-SE competition&#8217;s Sniper pods include new sensors (1k FLIR, HDTV), an evolution of the 2-way Compact Multi-Band Datalink (CMDL) that&#8217;s compatible with ROVER 3-5 per USAF requirements, and &#8220;automated capabilities&#8221; (all they&#8217;re allowed to say) to help the pilot perform ISR missions with less workload.

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## Donatello

So we should be expecting 4 squadrons of F-16s, then in total?

Not bad...eh?


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## Najam Khan

Donatello said:


> So we should be expecting 4 squadrons of F-16s, then in total?
> 
> Not bad...eh?


I doubt that PAF will go with increasing count F16 units . Adding more aircraft under one unit would save a lot of hassle, especially if in future Uncle Sam plans to stick his nose in such matters. Increasing squadron strength (of F16/JF-17 sqn) would create burden on sqn management and maintenance crew but at the same time it would bring a lot of 'punch' too, which can be distributed to different bases at the time of the need.

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## Armstrong

Najam Khan said:


> I doubt that PAF will go with increasing count F16 units . Adding more aircraft under one unit would save a lot of hassle, especially if in future Uncle Sam plans to stick his nose in such matters. Increasing squadron strength (of F16/JF-17 sqn) would create burden on sqn management and maintenance crew but at the same time it would bring a lot of 'punch' too, which can be distributed to different bases at the time of the need.



*Khan Sahib*, how can the PAF still continue going for this platform with almost certain sanctions looming over ? 

I can understand how the J-10B's engine (the Chinese one) is the prime reason why we're still hoping for it to mature further but surely whatever drawback that accrues pales in comparison to the PAF's predicament if Pakistan is sanctioned for a protracted period; whatever spares we did manage to buy can't possibly be enough to see us through 5 or so years without a need to re-procure. 

Or is the PAF & the Pakistani Military Establishment, by extension, do not foresee Pakistan being sanctioned post-2014 ?

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## Najam Khan

Armstrong said:


> *Khan Sahib*,* how can the PAF still continue going for this platform with almost certain sanctions looming over ? *
> 
> I can understand how the J-10B's engine (the Chinese one) is the prime reason why we're still hoping for it to mature further but surely whatever drawback that accrues pales in comparison to the PAF's predicament if Pakistan is sanctioned for a protracted period; whatever spares we did manage to buy can't possibly be enough to see us through 5 or so years without a need to re-procure.
> 
> *Or is the PAF & the Pakistani Military Establishment, by extension, do not foresee Pakistan being sanctioned post-2014 ?*



In simple words, unfortunately its still the best solution for us. JF-17 is one, but we still need 3-5 more years to see the 'hard-hitting' JF-17 with all the glory you see in airshows/defence exhibitions. You need its 100-150 combat ready pilots, 3 or 4 times more ground crew and lots of delivered "live weapons"...if that all is done, then my friend days of F-16 will be over (to some extent).

Regarding J-10B, it was and is still not cleared all standards required by PAF, if it does in next 3-4 years then it will be a cost-worthy deal. However at the same time, if we manage to get similar output in JF-17 Block-III or J-31 comes up as even better solution then J-10B deal could fade away.

Regarding post-2014 sanctions, even if any such thing happens then it will be damaging for those who impose sanctions as well. US is not falling out completely from Afghanistan, its existence will remain here and till then US and its allies will not touch this subject. 

If such sanctions are imposed then question arise can Pakistan can go for modifications/spares for F-16s with the help of Turkey? PAF survived more than a decade after Pressler amendments can they do the same if something similar happens? I believe you can guess these yourself...

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## fatman17

Najam Khan said:


> In simple words, unfortunately its still the best solution for us. JF-17 is one, but we still need 3-5 more years to see the 'hard-hitting' JF-17 with all the glory you see in airshows/defence exhibitions. You need its 100-150 combat ready pilots, 3 or 4 times more ground crew and lots of delivered "live weapons"...if that all is done, then my friend days of F-16 will be over (to some extent).
> 
> Regarding J-10B, it was and is still not cleared all standards required by PAF, if it does in next 3-4 years then it will be a cost-worthy deal. However at the same time, if we manage to get similar output in JF-17 Block-III or J-31 comes up as even better solution then J-10B deal could fade away.
> 
> Regarding post-2014 sanctions, even if any such thing happens then it will be damaging for those who impose sanctions as well. US is not falling out completely from Afghanistan, its existence will remain here and till then US and its allies will not touch this subject.
> 
> If such sanctions are imposed then question arise can Pakistan can go for modifications/spares for F-16s with the help of Turkey? PAF survived more than a decade after Pressler amendments can they do the same if something similar happens? I believe you can guess these yourself...



the obama admin has recently sent a 'strong' message to congress that it dosnt support any restrictions on aid to PK. for whats it worth, the bi-lateral relationship is finding 'new grounds' as both have learnt bitter lessons from the last 2 years.

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## Thunder_Rider

Last Hope said:


> The USN aircraft. According to The Washington, back in June/July 2012, this delivery was to start in December.



Are those 14 F-16 Block 42s ?


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## Storm Force

Only a complete idiot would keep making the SAME MISTAKE over and over again.

THE USA has sanctioned F16 & OTHER arms to pakistan before

THEY have threatened to do more sanctions if Pakistan went against USA interests

IS INDIA A USA INTEREST i think it is now for sure WIL USA stay neutral in indo pak war....... A 100% GURANTEED KNOW

can usa help avert or shorten a indo pak war = YES by declining spares from USA & ITS ALLIES (THIS INCLUDES TURKEY) in war time

NOT a good option


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## Najam Khan

Storm Force said:


> *Only a complete idiot would keep making the SAME MISTAKE over and over again.*


...and what lessons Indians learns from US sanctions on military sale to Pakistan? This weapon sale is not about a country's ego and keeping his name high, its all about business...If US or any other supplier want to make fast money, they will sell weapons. US wants military balance in the region, whether they get it by imposing sanctions or by selling weapons...they always have a unique game to play....but at the same time, foreign investors in these two countries will play their equal role in early ending war. 

Now since you have dragged this into Indo-Pak war scenario, their is not going to have one at least till 2020. Both Pakistan and India are going through same phase of weapons re-equipment/ modernization and both are restructuring/restudying their strategies in conventional and unconventional war. IAF still has roughly 200-300 aircraft that needs replacement or modernization, similarly PAF has 180-220 aircraft awaiting retirement.

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## Storm Force

Indians are being smart with their purchases.

Firstly they have rejected USA ATTACK weapons be it F18 OR F16s 

They would rather pay 25% more on Rafale MMRCA then face sanctions when in a war situation. 

2nd The indian pysche is such that once they are bitten they never make the same mistake AGAIN. 

EG the Russians have messed India about with Ghorskov carrier deal ... THE END RESULT the russians have lost out on 80% of the last 2 years biggest deals to other nations. 

C17 C130 APACHE gun ships & engines for TEJAS to USA.
ANTI TANK & SAM missles to israel 
MMRCA to French 

You learn from your mistakes.


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## batmannow

Storm Force said:


> Indians are being smart with their purchases.
> 
> Firstly they have rejected USA ATTACK weapons be it F18 OR F16s
> 
> They would rather pay 25% more on Rafale MMRCA then face sanctions when in a war situation.
> 
> 2nd The indian pysche is such that once they are bitten they never make the same mistake AGAIN.
> 
> EG the Russians have messed India about with Ghorskov carrier deal ... THE END RESULT the russians have lost out on 80% of the last 2 years biggest deals to other nations.
> 
> C17 C130 APACHE gun ships & engines for TEJAS to USA.
> ANTI TANK & SAM missles to israel
> MMRCA to French
> 
> You learn from your mistakes.



how long it will take to acuire for india 2022? lol
well it will be to late dont u think so?


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## Windjammer

Storm Force said:


> Indians are being smart with their purchases.
> 
> Firstly they have rejected USA ATTACK weapons be it F18 OR F16s
> *
> They would rather pay 25% more on Rafale MMRCA then face sanctions when in a war situation. *
> 
> 2nd The indian pysche is such that once they are bitten they never make the same mistake AGAIN.
> 
> EG the Russians have messed India about with Ghorskov carrier deal ... THE END RESULT the russians have lost out on 80% of the last 2 years biggest deals to other nations.
> *
> C17 C130 APACHE gun ships* & engines for TEJAS to USA.
> ANTI TANK & SAM missles to israel
> MMRCA to French
> 
> You learn from your mistakes.



Read again the highlighted parts and conclude, whether you have indeed learn from your mistakes.....unless off course you think, unlike the American fighter jets, the transport and gunships are sanction proof. !!

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## THE MASK

A man from Sargodha, Pakistan expresses his Love and Respect with 'Pakistan Air-Force' by making models from scrap woods

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## Donatello

Storm Force said:


> Indians are being smart with their purchases.
> 
> Firstly they have rejected USA ATTACK weapons be it F18 OR F16s
> 
> They would rather pay 25% more on Rafale MMRCA then face sanctions when in a war situation.
> 
> 2nd The indian pysche is such that once they are bitten they never make the same mistake AGAIN.
> 
> EG the Russians have messed India about with Ghorskov carrier deal ... THE END RESULT the russians have lost out on 80% of the last 2 years biggest deals to other nations.
> 
> C17 C130 APACHE gun ships & engines for TEJAS to USA.
> ANTI TANK & SAM missles to israel
> MMRCA to French
> 
> *You learn from your mistakes*.



Yes Genius, so has Pakistan.

Most of the upcoming naval vessels are Chinese so are many equipment in Army, not to mention the upcoming 150 JF-17s and the current 180 or so F-7s. Plus the ZDK03, SAAB Erieye from Sweden etc.


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## batmannow

fatman17 said:


> the obama admin has recently sent a 'strong' message to congress that it dosnt support any restrictions on aid to PK. for whats it worth, the bi-lateral relationship is finding 'new grounds' as both have learnt bitter lessons from the last 2 years.



& finding more targets like salala & abottabad?
mean time we are happy to lick same decads old lolly pop ,cause we are obssesd with it?


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## batmannow

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Obviously no don't have any reply other than this because PAF is in fact getting zilch.



I think you need to open your eyes & search different threads for that ,do that if cant find let me know, will guide you ?


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## Shadow_Hunter

batmannow said:


> I think you need to open your eyes & search different threads for that ,do that if cant find let me know, will guide you ?



Apart from the continued production of JF17, there isn't much going on. If you have anything else, please do guide me.


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## batmannow

this thread is about F-16s?
isnt it? 
try to search more, spend time on your search, you will find!
on this thread be @ topic


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## Najam Khan

@Tehmasib
*Non-PAF F-16 photos are not allowed in this thread, unless they are posted for discussion purpose. *

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## Tehmasib

i do not knows about this @Najam Khan


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## Najam Khan

Tehmasib said:


> i do not knows about this @Najam Khan


Then please cross-reference material before posting. Social media websites are full of such inaccurate stuff, but here we have to maintain quality.

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## Windjammer

*


F-16 CJ Block-52 '10909' at Lajes during it's delivery flight to Pakistan.*

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## fatman17

Crew Chief Profiles

Lt. Muhammad Ashraf "Ashraf" Zafar (Ret.) 
Crew Chief Profiles
Name Lt. Muhammad Ashraf Zafar (Ret.) 
Country 
Unit 11th squadron "Arrows" 
Crewing F-16s from 1985 until 1992 
I worked on F-16 and Chinese aircraft in various Sqn of the PAF 

My Jets & Assignments
82701 [Detailed history of this F-16] 
Unit 11th squadron "Arrows" [Unit History] 
Period 1985 - 1992 
Current: 82701 PAF 11 sqn F-16A Block 15 [w/o]


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## fatman17

11th squadron (PAF)
"Arrows" 
F-16 Units | Pakistan Air Force units 11 sqn "Arrows" (PAF) 
Status: Active 
Version: F-16A/B block 20 MLU 
Role: Multirole 
Tailband: N/A 
Motto: Your destination is above everyone else&#8217;s destination. 
Badge: An arrow pointing up through a circle of stars.


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## air marshal

*F-16 Hoodie*

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## fatman17

GOODRICH DB-110

in early january 2009, the PAF took delivery of its DB-110 systems and almost immediately put them on F-16 aircraft to carry out integration and acceptance trials.

a PAF DB-110 expert explained; "we are using them regularly - for battle damage assessment and mapping which provide us with latest time intelligence of value (LTIoV). we are about to get a capability enhancement, while Royal Air Force (RAF) personnel have been here sharing their experience of their (DB-110 based) RAPTOR(Rcon Air Pod for Tornado) system and showing us ways of exploiting the system even further so we can get more out of it. they have even designed a special course for the PAF".

according to Goodrich, the DB-110 provides real-time high-quality imagery intelligence from stand-off to close-in-range to the target, enabling aircrew and imagery analysts to verify targets and conduct mission-related tasks such as battle damage assessment.

the DB-110 sensor can be operated autonomously by the pod's recon management system or can be used interactively with aircrew input for new task-entry and target-of-opportunity imaging. 

during bombing missions, pilots are selected from different squadrons to ensure experience and expertise is spread throughout the force. designated squadrons are responsible for training pilots in the close air support role.

a huge air-to-ground firing range is used to practice high-altitude steep dive-angle bombing manoeuvres, with the new pilots also flying a couple of missions in the rear seat to get a feel of the situation.

AIR international

introduction of the DB-110 sensor into PAF service has meant the recon variant of the Mirage is all but redundant.

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## fatman17

Lightning 2 (Burk 2)

the PAF was aware that anti-insurgency operations would have to become part of operational doctrine, so plans were put in place to ensure that all fighter squadrons worked on their air-to-ground skills, culminating in a large anti-insurgency excercise. this led to a series of "Saffron Bandit" excercises in August 2009 in which all fighter units deployed to a designated base.

generally two units deployed for three weeks at a time over a six-month period until February 2010, by which time every squadron had attended the course. each squadron worked with the combat commanders school (CCS) on air-to-ground doctrine, using the PAF's air-to-ground bombing range where a mock 'terrorist village' had been built. pilots would gain the opportunity to experience the intensity of this kind of conflict and the necessary tactics to tackle such scenarios.

at the same time the army started its own rotation of units to the firing range to work with the PAF as both services sought to bolster their close air support training. the US Air Force (USAF) even sent some JTAC's to provide expertise and input.

within weeks of Saffron Bandit ending, the PAF took the chance to test everyone's resolve and commitment by launching Excercise High Mark 2010 on March 15. this two-month "mother of all excercises" wasnt just to test the counter-insurgency lessons, but also to see how the PAF would react to a threat from a neigbouring state. it tested most bases and all trades - pilots, maintenance personnel, engineers, logistics, administrators, air traffic, etc.

during the first ten days the PAF flew as many sorties as it usually does in three months of ops, with everyone working to their limits.

for the PAF, 2010 was remarkable for its large number of excercises;

Saffron Bandit.
High Mark, which included a motorway landing by two fighter aircraft.
Red Flag (at Nellis AFB, Nevada in the USA)
Bright Star (Egypt)
Anatolian Eagle (Turkey)

and the Advanced Tactical Leadership Course (at Al Dharfa AB, UAE).

unbelievably, in a year when the PAF flew more than 90,000 hours (around 10% more than usual), there were no accidents.

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## fatman17

*Today in history18 Dec 1975 
Assembly of F-16 Number One begins*


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## FarazUSA

Is this true that these F-16' cannot be used against the Bharati?

I saw an interview of a former air marshal and he is saying this. 

Perspectives: Can Pakistan make Russia Queen of Asia? - YouTube


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## TOPGUN

FarazUSA said:


> Is this true that these F-16' cannot be used against the Bharati?
> 
> I saw an interview of a former air marshal and he is saying this.
> 
> Perspectives: Can Pakistan make Russia Queen of Asia? - YouTube



Dear Faraz this question has been answered many times... and to tell you the truth our vipers will be and shall be used against any threat inside the country or a enemy outside simply. A nation doesn't buy wepons for show and does not buy them to keep them out of use incase of a war against evil when it is put upon us. So in the end yes vipers and all other assists will be used when the time arises which i hope not the rest is all rubish.

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## fatman17

*Today in history*

23 Dec 1981 
Pakistan orders 6 F-16s (Peace Gate I) becoming the 9th customer.

23 Dec 1981 
Pakistan orders 34 F-16s (Peace Gate II).

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## A1Kaid

TOPGUN said:


> Dear Faraz this question has been answered many times... and to tell you the truth our vipers will be and shall be used against any threat inside the country or a enemy outside simply. A nation doesn't buy wepons for show and does not buy them to keep them out of use incase of a war against evil when it is put upon us. So in the end yes vipers and all other assists will be used when the time arises which i hope not the rest is all rubish.



Yes but doesn't US have restrictions for PAF's F-16's on conducting offensive operations outside of Pakistani air space? Apparently that was one of the major pre-conditions before procurement. The F-16's they sold to Pakistan are laden with sealed off systems and tracking devices which most likely reveal the position of the aircraft to I suppose Lockheed Martin or USAF.



Oscar said:


> Tiny virus chips???
> If they had to do it, they would.
> We are sure because we made sure.. we knew what strings are attached or not.
> the MLU is being done in Turkey..by TAI personnel who have done this a hundred times before.
> What is amiss.. the checks on the electronic pods.. sealed sensitive components.. we have been told before.




Aren't their parts of the F-16 which even the TAI personnel do not have access to because of US restriction?


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## Gentelman

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Apart from the continued production of JF17, there isn't much going on. If you have anything else, please do guide me.



i will not go much outaa topic well PAF have BVR capability new BVR weapons air refulling capability new xhineese/US and sweaden AWACS J 10 deal...capability to land fighter jets like mirages on motorways...new F 16 blck 50/52 upgrading F 16 fighter engines locally in PAC and locallu upgrading F16 blck 30 with MLU.....
i suppose its enough for 5 years. 
raad is also developed in this time uqaab uav falco UAV production......


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## soul hacker

F-16 firing maverick

photo courtesy: Irtiza Ali

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## SQ8

A1Kaid said:


> Aren't their parts of the F-16 which even the TAI personnel do not have access to because of US restriction?



There would be, but these would be source codes for systems such as the AIM-120, advanced IFF modes.. etc
None that would disrupt flight, or usage of radar .. or the weapons systems.

One possible addition would be spoofing IFF within F-16's to not let them employ BVR weaponry against a target that is identified as friendly.. this may be embedded within code. But there is nothing to stop the employment of WVR weaponry or dumb bombs.

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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> There would be, but these would be source codes for systems such as the AIM-120, advanced IFF modes.. etc
> None that would disrupt flight, or usage of radar .. or the weapons systems.
> 
> One possible addition would be spoofing IFF within F-16's to not let them employ BVR weaponry against a target that is identified as friendly.. this may be embedded within code. But there is nothing to stop the employment of WVR weaponry or dumb bombs.



So basically nothing that would restrict PAF F-16's ability against IAF?

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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> So basically nothing that would restrict PAF F-16's ability against IAF?



Vs the Indian Air Force.

*NOTHING.*

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## ali shaan

90% of the talk is on predictions no real news.


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## fatman17

ali shaan said:


> 90% of the talk is on predictions no real news.



what real news would you like sir!- only 2 posts and you know everything - stick around and learn first

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## airomerix

Gentelman said:


> i will not go much outaa topic well PAF have BVR capability new BVR weapons air refulling capability new xhineese/US and sweaden AWACS J 10 deal...capability to land fighter jets like mirages on motorways...new F 16 blck 50/52 upgrading F 16 fighter engines locally in PAC and locallu upgrading F16 blck 30 with MLU.....
> i suppose its enough for 5 years.
> raad is also developed in this time uqaab uav falco UAV production......



F-16MLU's which PAF has procured are of Tape 3 which means they are roughly equal to Block 40/42s.


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## MastanKhan

A1Kaid said:


> Yes but doesn't US have restrictions for PAF's F-16's on conducting offensive operations outside of Pakistani air space? Apparently that was one of the major pre-conditions before procurement. The F-16's they sold to Pakistan are laden with sealed off systems and tracking devices which most likely reveal the position of the aircraft to I suppose Lockheed Martin or USAF.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't their parts of the F-16 which even the TAI personnel do not have access to because of US restriction?



Hi,

Pakistan and china would have similiar stuff put on the JF 17 sold to a 3rd nation---it is nothing new---it is a standard practise---.

The F 16 is not made by united states----it is made by a private entity----that private entity have all their reputation and integrity representative of this aircraft---. 

THey sold this aircraft to pakistan and they expect pakistan air force to beat the bejesus out of the opponent with this weapons system----if anybody thinks otherwise----they got issues.

American car manufacturers use different vendors---general motors placed an order with toyota---their one condition was 6 % failure rate---when toyota presented the item in question they had in batch of 100 two packages---one small one large---the large package had 94 items and the small had 6 itmes---.

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## umair86pk

airomerix said:


> F-16MLU's which PAF has procured are of Tape 3 which means they are roughly equal to Block 40/42s.



they are not tape 3 they are customized version original MLU didn't had the APG-68V9 radar


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## MZUBAIR

How many f16 blk 15 PAF have upgraded to MLU ????


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## fatman17

MZUBAIR said:


> How many f16 blk 15 PAF have upgraded to MLU ????



3 from US
6 from TAI 
so far

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## airomerix

umair86pk said:


> they are not tape 3 they are customized version original MLU didn't had the APG-68V9 radar



Tape 3 refers to the addition of various capabiltiies such as integration of Link 16, Integration of capability for GPS controlled weapons (GBU30/32), Introduction of Helmet Mounted/Cueing Sight (Not sure if PAF opted for this upgrade), Introduction of NVG compatible helmets.

The radars we are opting for are APG-68v5 not v9 for the MLU's. This is one of the things which makes it equal to Block 40.


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## umair86pk

they have the same avionics suite as our Block 52+

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## SQ8

airomerix said:


> Tape 3 refers to the addition of various capabiltiies such as integration of Link 16, Integration of capability for GPS controlled weapons (GBU30/32), Introduction of Helmet Mounted/Cueing Sight (Not sure if PAF opted for this upgrade), Introduction of NVG compatible helmets.
> 
> The radars we are opting for are APG-68v5 not v9 for the MLU's. This is one of the things which makes it equal to Block 40.



Incorrect, The APG-68 V(5) was the radar version that was introduced for the first Block-50's.. i.e .. It is the baseline for Block-50/52s. So at no point are the MLU's equal to Block-40's. The radar ordered/offered to Pakistan is the v(9). Which was the current model in production. 
There is NO difference in radar capability for the PAF MLU jets vs the Block-52's.

The idea that the PAF ordered the V(5) is an impossibility since those sets, and even the chips on those sets are obsolete and out of production.(production for the V(5) model ended in 1996-7)
The Only possibility with the MLU kits would be a slight reduction in SAR resolution as compared to other export models since the same was done for Saudi Arabia for their purchase of the F-15E. 
However that is not the case here as there is no degrade in capability in any of the PAF's radars for any reason. 
This was authorized by congress only because they knew that India was ordered much more quantities of advanced equipment and so the introduction of these aircraft into the PAF would not give it any significant advantage over the IAF at any time.

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## Shadow_Hunter

Oscar said:


> Incorrect, The APG-68 V(5) was the radar version that was introduced for the first Block-50's.. i.e .. It is the baseline for Block-50/52s. So at no point are the MLU's equal to Block-40's. The radar ordered/offered to Pakistan is the v(9). Which was the current model in production.
> There is NO difference in radar capability for the PAF MLU jets vs the Block-52's.
> 
> The idea that the PAF ordered the V(5) is an impossibility since those sets, and even the chips on those sets are obsolete and out of production.(production for the V(5) model ended in 1996-7)
> The Only possibility with the MLU kits would be a slight reduction in SAR resolution as compared to other export models since the same was done for Saudi Arabia for their purchase of the F-15E.
> However that is not the case here as there is no degrade in capability in any of the PAF's radars for any reason.
> This was authorized by congress only because they knew that India was ordered much more quantities of advanced equipment and so the introduction of these aircraft into the PAF would not give it any significant advantage over the IAF at any time.



I have always wondered one thing. Pakistanis have claimed that their F16s will be MLUed they will become equivalent to blk52 and will become BVR capable. But has pakistan ordered BVR missiles for these new MLUed jets?


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## SQ8

Shadow_Hunter said:


> I have always wondered one thing. Pakistanis have claimed that their F16s will be MLUed they will become equivalent to blk52 and will become BVR capable. But has pakistan ordered BVR missiles for these new MLUed jets?



With over 500 Aim-120C5's ordered .. there are more than enough to equip all F-16 units.
You dont need a separate order for each of the platforms when they all can use the same system.
The weapons order for the Block-52's is entirely compatible and intended for use on the MLU jets as well.

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## Manticore

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...6-mlu-specifications-36-blk-52-prospects.html


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## fatman17

IDFAF loses 2 F-16's within 7 days. one F-16C and one D type.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Shadow_Hunter said:


> I have always wondered one thing. Pakistanis have claimed that their F16s will be MLUed they will become equivalent to blk52 and will become BVR capable. *But has pakistan ordered BVR missiles for these new MLUed jets*?




opssss....







Have a closer look ...

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## fatman17

500 rounds of the 120C5/7 were ordered and more than 250 have been delivered.


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## danger007

Only 120c5^^^^^ not c7


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## Najam Khan

danger007 said:


> Only 120c5^^^^^ not c7


Doesn't matter much, in both case the target will never know what hit them

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## Kompromat

@Najam Khan Its been a long time, since we have had a single new, picture of these babies, you don't know anyone in Jacobabad?

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## alimobin memon

danger007 said:


> Only 120c5^^^^^ not c7


Still combat proven then Russian standard BVR's of your airforce

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## GURU DUTT

alimobin memon said:


> Still combat proven then Russian standard BVR's of your airforce



well sir do you think russian stuf is infrior well guess what russians had many techs which were far superior to what western airforces got (like thrust vectoring & IR & other seeker deptt) say as earli as gulf war 1&2 and they have incorporated to there missiles in deu coyrse to all there bvr's that came to india as we unlike PAf get way better stuff from owr suppliers deu to hard cash we give we dont beleve in soft loans and all such fancy names hope u dont mind but the point is russians have and always had far superior tech than chinese and some other of your suppliers and one more thing we indians have far better trainng and tech help from french & israeli aswell ......he he he im not a technical guy but for sure i know that paf dosent have a chance to survive a battle if it ever beguns and will ke stopped as soon as it beguns but there is nothing wrong you bieng muhib ul watan


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## shanixee

any news abt the 14 F16 which were to be delivered in Dec 2012..???

i guess there is nothing.....it was just a rumer..


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> 500 rounds of the 120C5/7 were ordered and more than 250 have been delivered.



Has the motor issue on C5 been resolved and when will deliveries of the rest resume?
Araz



shanixee said:


> any news abt the 14 F16 which were to be delivered in Dec 2012..???
> 
> i guess there is nothing.....it was just a rumer..



The timing bit was a bit too hasty but the rest is still on the cards.
Araz

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## Umair Nawaz

GURU DUTT said:


> well sir do you think russian stuf is infrior well guess what russians had many techs which were far superior to what western airforces got (like thrust vectoring & IR & other seeker deptt) say as earli as gulf war 1&2 and they have incorporated to there missiles in deu coyrse to all there bvr's that came to india as we unlike PAf get way better stuff from owr suppliers deu to hard cash we give we dont beleve in soft loans and all such fancy names hope u dont mind but the point is russians have and always had far superior tech than chinese and some other of your suppliers and one more thing we indians have far better trainng and tech help from french & israeli aswell ......*he he he im not a technical guy but for sure i know that paf dosent have a chance to survive a battle if it ever beguns and will ke stopped as soon as it beguns but there is nothing wrong you bieng muhib ul watan :cheers*:



same u said during 1965 n 1971 wars too


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## Najam Khan

Aeronaut said:


> @Najam Khan Its been a long time, since we have had a single new, picture of these babies, you don't know anyone in Jacobabad?


Whenever the website's subscribers share anything, it will be shared with you all 



shanixee said:


> any news abt the 14 F16 which were to be delivered in Dec 2012..???
> 
> i guess there is nothing.....it was just a rumer..


I believe some MLU's are expected to arrive from Turkey in Dec2012/Jan2013, not those 14 EDA F-16s. There is a possibility that Pak gets those funds reimbursed in some other form.



araz said:


> Has the motor issue on C5 been resolved and when will deliveries of the rest resume?
> Araz


That was a case with Raytheon's deliveries of new AMRAAM variant (-120D?) for USAF/UAE/USN/Turkey etc not PAF. -C5 version is bit older and trust worthy version.

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## Jango

Are those FLIRs beneath the F-16's?

If so, any idea which ones?


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## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> Are those FLIRs beneath the F-16's?
> 
> If so, any idea which ones?



Its the french Carrapace RWR system installed by the Belgian air force on their F-16's.
Its a fairly good and accurate system but is overkill without weaponry to be able to use its abilities.
Third, it requires release of F-16 source codes for integration.

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## Jango

Thanks for the info. @Oscar

I searched google, and a def.pk link came

http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/15226-pakistan-f-16-discussions-2-a-346-print.html

PAF F-16's also have Carrapace system as I gather from that link.

Here is a pic:

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## air marshal

*Griffins*

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## giant panda



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## air marshal

*Falcons*

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## mdcp

We should learn from experience, i dont trust F16's at all, may be during war they dont work, strings, software expiry like stinger missiles, sanction
After great success of JF 17 project, we should simultaneously should start another project for advance gen. Heavy fighter with twin engine so we can have no's and quality to face any enemy


----------



## Myth_buster_1

GURU DUTT said:


> well sir do you think russian stuf is infrior well guess what russians had many techs which were far superior to what western airforces got (like thrust vectoring & IR & other seeker deptt) say as earli as gulf war 1&2 and they have incorporated to there missiles in deu coyrse to all there bvr's that came to india as we unlike PAf get way better stuff from owr suppliers deu to hard cash we give we dont beleve in soft loans and all such fancy names hope u dont mind but the point is russians have and always had far superior tech than chinese and some other of your suppliers and one more thing we indians have far better trainng and tech help from french & israeli aswell ......he he he im not a technical guy but for sure i know that paf dosent have a chance to survive a battle if it ever beguns and will ke stopped as soon as it beguns but there is nothing wrong you bieng muhib ul watan



okay take a deep breath and be shanti plez.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

fatman17 said:


> 3 from US
> 6 from TAI
> so far



born in 87 and if i live up to age of 87 F-16 will still be serving in PAF while the rest of the world be docking their space warships in the skys.


----------



## untitled

Myth_buster_1 said:


> born in 87 and if i live up to age of 87 F-16 will still be serving in PAF while the rest of the world be docking their space warships in the skys.



Who knows PAF might have a classic aircraft squadron then


----------



## umair86pk

mdcp said:


> We should learn from experience, i dont trust F16's at all, may be during war they dont work, strings, software expiry like stinger missiles, sanction
> After great success of JF 17 project, we should simultaneously should start another project for advance gen. Heavy fighter with twin engine so we can have no's and quality to face any enemy



People in the Airforce know better than us what they are doing

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## MastanKhan

umair86pk said:


> People in the Airforce know better than us what they are doing





Sir,

No---they don't---they are as clueless as the neighbour's blind and mute daughter---.

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## razgriz19

umair86pk said:


> People in the Airforce know better than us what they are doing



No, Apparently the keyboard warriors know better than the air force.

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## Peaceful Civilian

We should also ask U.S.A for f16 block 60 models. We should start Serious negotiation with them. I think numbers should be around 25-30. I am not in favor of J10, this is my opinion, and i'll prefer Jf17 in many numbers with many F16s.


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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> No---they don't---they are as *clueless as the neighbour's blind and mute daughter---*.



Evidence to the severity of that statement??? please?

I do agree that many clueless decisions(or rather willful negligence) have been made.. but not all.
So please.. provide evidence to your harsh claim.

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## alikazmi007

Aren't we suppose to get some F-16's, in December of 2012. It was wildly speculated and debated on the model and everything.
Does any one have any update or ETA on them?


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## Gentelman

mdcp said:


> We should learn from experience, i dont trust F16's at all, may be during war they dont work, strings, software expiry like stinger missiles, sanction
> After great success of JF 17 project, we should simultaneously should start another project for advance gen. Heavy fighter with twin engine so we can have no's and quality to face any enemy



well was that a joke???
if not then listenn....
JfT isnot in it's 100% capable and mature platform 
1st let it be a mature fighter....
we don't produce 100% JFT yet and PAf needs to stuck JFT orogram atleast till 2035 
it's enough for us....
till that time we will be able to fully design and equip our gets.. 
well twin engine??:o
not now
economically bad.....
well i hope to see JFT a capable platform in near future.. 
J 10 is our high tech option.....
PAF learned from past....
we r not relying on Americans like before..
cheers..


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## mdcp

Jf17 is doing well and we are making progress, where as j10 is our current need but what about after few years do we need to be in same position we in right now
The problem with Pakistam is always we are short sighted , we need to plan for long term so in case of emergency if we got funds available always you can get from market but in normal circumustances see long term solution
There is no need to make 100% urself, ts a business technique, cost , time, availibilty issue,if u spend less energy, money and time to outsource than y not


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## Xracer

mdcp said:


> We should learn from experience, i dont trust F16's at all, may be during war they dont work, strings, software expiry like stinger missiles, sanction
> After great success of JF 17 project, we should simultaneously should start another project for advance gen. Heavy fighter with twin engine so we can have no's and quality to face any enemy


well was that a joke???
if not then listenn....
JfT isnot in it's 100% capable and mature platform
1st let it be a mature fighter....
we don't produce 100% JFT yet and PAf needs to stuck JFT orogram atleast till 2035
it's enough for us....
till that time we will be able to fully design and equip our gets..
well twin engine??:o
not now
economically bad.....
well i hope to see JFT a capable platform in near future..
J 10 is our high tech option.....
PAF learned from past....
we r not relying on Americans like before..
cheers..

Yes thats Right the main strategy we r not relying on Americans like Before
And JF Thunder is improving Day by Day as for Single Engine Jet why Indian is Developing HAL Tejas design powered by a single engine.Why is F35 has Single Engine.

Single Engine Doctrine Has better the Future Than Twin Engine.

2 engines is almost customary practice
Examples F - 15, remarkable, long range capable kill, excellent over lebanon 1982
F - 4 , good in vietnam and israelis did the best of them during many years
Su 27, the most agile fighter modern times wil see, vertical climb un - matched by none other plane eastern or western impressive maneuver capability
Mig 25, high altitude interceptor, pilots claim they see earth curve, no single engine jet goes so high so fast!
, Su 37 ,remarkable.
A 10 Thunderbolt II Tank Killer , spectacular performance over gulf war
F 18 Hornet
F14 excellent during iraq - iran war, iranians did Absolutely great
EA6B prowler , perfect service ever since vietnam.
F111 raeven electronic warfare 2 engines
look after redundant systems inside A 10 warthogs very necessary and very capable, plane sustains damage and keeps going on

after korean war it almost became non written rule to have 2 engines better than one

Single engine
French Mirage F1. good in the hands of Israelis, popular all around latin american air forces
F16 .good for every thing , very versatile
Starfighther F 104 , great, but cruel in the hands of novice pilots, Burns too much fuel
F 105 Thunderchief, spectacular vietnam service
A - 4 skyhawk superb over falklands war
Not to forget The mighty JF 17 Thunder  
Many single engine jets are one pilot only, then modifications meant pilot and weapon specialist on the back . examples F 15 was 1st single pilot then became 2 pilots, F1 mirage french plane is mostly 1 pilot, A4 skyhawk was always one pilot only, most of times F16 is one pilot. F18 was single seater then became 2 seats, F14 was always a two seats plane A10 is always single pilot plane. F111 was always 2 engines two pilots

Depends on missions , doctrine and number of pilots to be trained

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## mdcp

Pakistan is a country or over 180 million ppl not small tiny city
So wee need to defend ppl, assets etc
Finish corruption and use money on research and building


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## Gentelman

mdcp said:


> Pakistan is a country or over 180 million ppl not small tiny city
> So wee need to defend ppl, assets etc
> Finish corruption and use money on research and building



what was the point???


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## mdcp

Point is we should not restrict ourselve to only one or two platform


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## dexter

JHMCS , HGU-55P + MBU-20P , NVG







Air Marshal A. Rashid Sheikh greeting pilot Squadron Leader Shahid Lateef of 1st PAF F-16 to land in Pakistan on January 15, 1983. [Picture courtesy: Air Marshal (Retd) Shahid Lateef, VCAS]






Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal M Anwar Shamim, stands alongside President of Pakistan General Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq, along with the first six F-16 pilots, Wg Cdr Shahid Javed, Wg Cdr Ahmed Kuli Khattak, Sqn Ldr Shahid Lateef, Sqn Ldr A Sami Toor, Sqn Ldr M Avais and Sqn Ldr Muzaffar Ali. [Picture courtesy: Air Marshal (Retd) Shahid Lateef, VCAS]

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## Jango

dexter said:


>



That's a great watch by the looks of it.

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## notorious_eagle

nuclearpak said:


> That's a great watch by the looks of it.



And the man wearing the watch is one of the finest pilots Pakistan Air Force has ever produced. Simply top class, one in a million. He could go up against the best of the best, and pound them like roost turkey. I forgot the name of that hot shot US Naval Pilot who was considered the best in his league, AVM Shahid had him in his gun sights in less than minute much to the astonishment of everyone there.

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## Jango

notorious_eagle said:


> And the man wearing the watch is one of the finest pilots Pakistan Air Force has ever produced. Simply top class, one in a million. He could go up against the best of the best, and pound them like roost turkey. I forgot the name of that hot shot US Naval Pilot who was considered the best in his league, AVM Shahid had him in his gun sights in less than minute much to the astonishment of everyone there.



Yeah, I heard this story once.


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## umair86pk

can this story be shared by someone


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## Gentelman

A special feature posted on the PAF Falcons web site provides a fascinating transcript of a one-on-one interview with an anonymous, although apparently very senior, Pakistani Air Force F-16 pilot. It reminds me of YouTube Terry's infamous indiscretions.

The Pakistani pilot manages to embarrass the pride of the Royal Air Force, candidly describe Israeli air-to-air prowess and explain how the US keeps the F-16 Block 52's secrets away from the Pakistanis and -- by extension -- the Chinese.

On the RAF Typhoon:

On one occasion - in one of the international Anatolian Eagles - PAF pilots were pitted against RAF Typhoons, a formidable aircraft. There were three set-ups and in all three, we shot down the Typhoons. The RAF pilots were shocked.

Q: Any particular reason for your success?

A: NATO pilots are not that proficient in close-in air-to-air combat. They are trained for BVR engagements and their tactics are based on BVR engagements. These were close-in air combat exercises and we had the upper hand because close-in air combat is drilled into every PAF pilot and this is something we are very good at.

On the Israelis:

Q: What are the Isrealis afraid of?

A: What they fear most is that we might learn about their tactics, especially BVR countermeasure tactics, which they have mastered.

Q: I heard a rumour that the TuAF once gave PAF pilots the opportunity to fly with and against the Israelis in A. TuAF F-16s pretending to be Turkish pilots - even letting them sit in the Turkish-Israeli ACMI de-briefs?

A: No comments.

On US concerns about the Chinese:

To recall an interesting little story: soon after the first F-16s were delivered to Pakistan in the mid-80s, the PLAAF Chief visited Sargodha. The Americans were there as well. As a gesture of courtesy, the PAF showed the PLAAF Chief one of the F-16s and let him sit in the cockpit. Some US technicians were there looking on. As soon as the PLAAF Chief sat in the F-16 cockpit, the first thing he did was to start measuring the HUD with his fingers, you know, when you extend your little finger and thumb to measure something? This worried the Americans.

On US export control practices:

They have ways of keeping an eye on the Block 52s without being personally present. The main concern is the transfer of cutting-edge technology - the avionics and radar, the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS) the Sniper pod. They have put digital seals all the sensitive technologies, which can only be opened via a code, which only they know. If there is a malfunction or these parts need to be serviced, they will be taken out of the Block 52s and shipped back to the US for repairs/servicing. If we try to pry open these systems without the codes, inbuilt alarms will be relayed to the Americans, which will be a breach of the contract.

Q: Will the Americans be able to track the locations of the Block 52s through some sort of tracking devices hidden inside the aircraft?

A: If there are tracking devices then they will be inside the sealed systems, like the avionics suites or the sniper pods because we will not have the ability to look inside. If their Predator and Reaper drones are transmitting their GPS locations via satellite so can a Block 52 F-16.

Even though Turkey produces the F-16, there are some components that are manufactured in the US and only come to Turkey for the final assembly. In one incident, a Turkish Block 50 crashed and the pilot was killed. They salvaged the wreckage and laid it out in hanger and started putting together the pieces to find out the cause. They found a piece of sealed equipment which had cracked open and inside they found some device that looked like a bug. Upon inquiry, it turned out to be a tracking device.

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## umair86pk

US Navy Ex-PAF F-16s training at NAS Pensacola.


http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2013/jan/17/t-ar-5395129/


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## Safriz

by Zaki Khalid
[TX Desk]

US Ambassador to Pakistan Richard Olson met Pakistan Air Force Chief Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt at Air Headquarters in Islamabad to discuss the country's F-16 programme.

According to a statement by the PAF, "various areas of further cooperation" were also discussed. After the meeting, the US Ambassador accompanied the PAF Chief on a visit to Shahbaz airbase where he was given an on-site briefing of the F-16 programme.

Sources in the PAF said that the US Ambassador discussed the refurbishing of 45 F-16 jets by Turkish Aerospace Industries, under a deal that was signed in 2010. In 2012, 3 upgraded F-16 jets were already delivered to Pakistan.

Besides the F-16s, Ambassador Olson also discussed a mid-life upgrade of older combat jets in the Pakistan Air Force fleet.

A statement by the US Embassy in Islamabad read: "Both sides affirmed their mutual commitment to a strong defence relationship which they agreed should focus on achieving common objectives".

This discussion was held under the pretext of the US Foreign Military Assistance programme.

Terminal X: US Ambassador meets Pakistan Air Force Chief to discuss the F-16 programme


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## fatman17

Tuesday, January 22, 2013 


*US envoy, PAF chief review F-16 programme* 


ISLAMABAD: US Ambassador Richard Olson and Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt on Monday reviewed Pakistan&#8217;s F-16 programme. Ambassador Olson reaffirmed the importance of a strong US-Pakistan security relationship during an exchange of ideas with Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt. Both sides affirmed their mutual commitment to a strong defence relationship which they agreed should focus on achieving common objectives. Ambassador Olson and the air chief marshal reviewed the Pakistani F-16 programme and visited the home of Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s, at PAF Base Shahbaz. 

&#8220;This visit, and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16 programme itself, represent concrete examples of US-Pakistan cooperation to support our shared security goals and to promote peace and stability in the region,&#8221; said Ambassador Olson. Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt welcomed the US ambassador and said, &#8220;Ambassador Olson&#8217;s visit is important because it focuses on achieving common objectives and it shows the US and Pakistan working together to strengthen cooperation to support each country&#8217;s security interests.&#8221; 

The PAF has been flying F-16s since the early 1980s. In 2008, the PAF bought the advanced Block 52 model using national funds. The plane has all-weather day/night precision targeting capability. The US Foreign Military Assistance programme is helping the PAF upgrade its fleet of older F-16 aircraft to match these new capabilities. With their state-of-the-art ability to support Pakistan&#8217;s counter-terror efforts, these aircraft are the backbone of the PAF. staff report


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Tuesday, January 22, 2013
> 
> 
> *US envoy, PAF chief review F-16 programme*
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD: US Ambassador Richard Olson and Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt on Monday reviewed Pakistan&#8217;s F-16 programme. Ambassador Olson reaffirmed the importance of a strong US-Pakistan security relationship during an exchange of ideas with Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt. Both sides affirmed their mutual commitment to a strong defence relationship which they agreed should focus on achieving common objectives. Ambassador Olson and the air chief marshal reviewed the Pakistani F-16 programme and visited the home of Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s, at PAF Base Shahbaz.
> 
> &#8220;This visit, and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16 programme itself, represent concrete examples of US-Pakistan cooperation to support our shared security goals and to promote peace and stability in the region,&#8221; said Ambassador Olson. Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt welcomed the US ambassador and said, &#8220;Ambassador Olson&#8217;s visit is important because it focuses on achieving common objectives and it shows the US and Pakistan working together to strengthen cooperation to support each country&#8217;s security interests.&#8221;
> 
> The PAF has been flying F-16s since the early 1980s. In 2008, the PAF bought the advanced Block 52 model using national funds. The plane has all-weather day/night precision targeting capability. The US Foreign Military Assistance programme is helping the PAF upgrade its fleet of older F-16 aircraft to match these new capabilities. With their state-of-the-art ability to support Pakistan&#8217;s counter-terror efforts, these aircraft are the backbone of the PAF. staff report



Do we know whether there is any more to this than just a Halwa Puri trip!!! Wit hthe finances in dire straits is PAF begging for more old F16s or buyinbg old F16s and begging for their MLU kit.
Araz

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## fatman17

araz said:


> Do we know whether there is any more to this than just a Halwa Puri trip!!! Wit hthe finances in dire straits is PAF begging for more old F16s or buyinbg old F16s and begging for their MLU kit.
> Araz



when the govt. with its poor economic performance puts its defence forces under these circumstances where all major programs are being 'delayed', what choice do we have/ - pray tell?


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> when the govt. with its poor economic performance puts its defence forces under these circumstances where all major programs are being 'delayed', what choice do we have/ - pray tell?



Sir 
I agree fully with you. The problems of bad governance in Pakistan are unlikely to go away anytime soon. In the process the whole nation continues to suffer.
Araz

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## fatman17

araz said:


> Sir
> I agree fully with you. The problems of bad governance in Pakistan are unlikely to go away anytime soon. In the process the whole nation continues to suffer.
> Araz



and there endth the lesson - we will continue to beg and borrow


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## A.Razzaq

I think JF-17 and J-17 are better than F-16


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## Windjammer



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## Najam Khan

F-16 Block52 induction ceremony fly past.

No.5 Sqn Falcons Ex-RAAF Mirage IIIDF being escorted by F-16 Block-52 aircraft during its farewell fly past on 10 March, 2011. The same day; No.5 Sqn was re-equipped with newly inducted state-of-the-art F-16 C/D Block 52+ aircraft.

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## Donatello

Man i really hope Pakistan can raise another squadron of F-16s, either MLUs or BLK52s. I mean, they are lethal!!!!

If USA is really committed to improving relations, they should release the 14 embargoed aircraft.

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## Pfpilot

I, for one, hope we never see those aircraft again. Assuming they operate as USN aggressors, they will have been put through numerous hours under extreme conditions that will have left the fuselage with less life than our own f-16s, which were produced before them. Those aircraft are lost causes, not only because of their age, but also the era and threat perception for which they were procured is long gone. 

Fighter aircraft seldom see the kind of combat they are touted for and our f-16s, post-Soviet Invasion, were no different . For us, the 90s passed in a blaze of sanctions and the failure in Kargil. An all out war with an aggressor India never materialized. And an aggressive Pakistani endeavor across the non-Kashmiri border was impossible with an air force composed of f-6s, f-7s, and Mirages; such amazing engineering marvels...of the 60s. Ironically, our sanctioned f-16s adequately provided the defensive footing we were cornered into, following the rapid development of the Indian armed forces and lack of it on the Pakistani side. 

When the f-16s were originally procured, they were a very real threat to a nation on the brink of economic collapse. Today, those very same numbers would leave us inadequately prepared. In hindsight from the resulting economic fate of the two nations, Pakistan's last chance at wresting control of Kashmir died with those initial sanctions. We could have used those f-16s then; we require them today more out of ego, to wash away the sting of the US refusal to provide them in the first place. 

The damage done to the Pakistani armed forces capability was more extensive then we'd like to believe. Wiping away a crucially important decade, that ended up deciding the South Asian balance for the foreseeable future, has had geopolitical repercussions which will be felt for years. Chief among them, the dwindling reputation of an armed forces that have been the only stable and constant force in Pakistani history. The aura has been dimmed by years of non action and passing of time since the last all out conflict. We have lost far more than we will ever gain from the procurement of these specific aircraft. Less fatigued air frames would be far more beneficial, but still limited in the incremental jump in capability they'd provide the PAF in relation to it's adversary.

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## jupiter2007

Donatello said:


> Man i really hope Pakistan can raise another squadron of F-16s, either MLUs or BLK52s. I mean, they are lethal!!!!
> 
> If USA is really committed to improving relations, they should release the 14 embargoed aircraft.




How many surplus F-16 does USA has? or how many will they be replacing with F-35 and F-22?


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## Donatello

Pfpilot said:


> I, for one, hope we never see those aircraft again. Assuming they operate as USN aggressors, they will have been put through numerous hours under extreme conditions that will have left the fuselage with less life than our own f-16s, which were produced before them. Those aircraft are lost causes, not only because of their age, but also the era and threat perception for which they were procured is long gone.
> 
> Fighter aircraft seldom see the kind of combat they are touted for and our f-16s, post-Soviet Invasion, were no different . For us, the 90s passed in a blaze of sanctions and the failure in Kargil. An all out war with an aggressor India never materialized. And an aggressive Pakistani endeavor across the non-Kashmiri border was impossible with an air force composed of f-6s, f-7s, and Mirages; such amazing engineering marvels...of the 60s. Ironically, our sanctioned f-16s adequately provided the defensive footing we were cornered into, following the rapid development of the Indian armed forces and lack of it on the Pakistani side.
> 
> When the f-16s were originally procured, they were a very real threat to a nation on the brink of economic collapse. Today, those very same numbers would leave us inadequately prepared. In hindsight from the resulting economic fate of the two nations, Pakistan's last chance at wresting control of Kashmir died with those initial sanctions. We could have used those f-16s then; we require them today more out of ego, to wash away the sting of the US refusal to provide them in the first place.
> 
> The damage done to the Pakistani armed forces capability was more extensive then we'd like to believe. Wiping away a crucially important decade, that ended up deciding the South Asian balance for the foreseeable future, has had geopolitical repercussions which will be felt for years. Chief among them, the dwindling reputation of an armed forces that have been the only stable and constant force in Pakistani history. The aura has been dimmed by years of non action and passing of time since the last all out conflict. We have lost far more than we will ever gain from the procurement of these specific aircraft. Less fatigued air frames would be far more beneficial, but still limited in the incremental jump in capability they'd provide the PAF in relation to it's adversary.



Though i agree with the philosophy part, but MLU f-16s with AIM120s can take on anything in our adversary on east's inventory, including the upcoming Rafale.

BUt yea, i guess it is time to move on

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## fatman17

jupiter2007 said:


> How many surplus F-16 does USA has? or how many will they be replacing with F-35 and F-22?



hundreds - its all about airframe integrity when selecting from EDA stocks. after MLU the a/c are good as 'new' except for the feeling of a brand new bird.


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## Safriz

L-3 Link to Upgrade Pakistan Air Force F-16 Aircrew Training Devices January 23, 2012 | *********** L-3 Link Simulation & Training (L-3 Link) announced today that it has been awarded a contract modification from the U.S. Air Force to upgrade two Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16C Block 52 Aircrew Training Devices (ATDs) with the companys new SimuSphere HD-9 visual system display. This award represents the first use of SimuSphere HD-9 on training devices that will be delivered to a foreign nation. L-3 Links SimuSphere HD-9, which incorporates the full capabilities of the companys HD World integrated simulation product line, will provide PAF F-16 pilots with an increased level of tactical training realism. High-definition databases, image generators and the SimuSphere HD-9 visual display will combine to create a highly realistic and relevant training environment over a geo-specific visual system database of Pakistan. The F-16C Block 52 ATDs, scheduled for delivery in 2013, will be installed and networked at Shahbaz Air Base. This award demonstrates the value that SimuSphere HD-9 will bring to military fast jet training, said Leonard Genna, president of L-3 Link. SimuSphere HD-9, combined with the trainers overall HD World capabilities, will allow Pakistan Air Force F-16 pilots to gain training credit equivalent to live training. SimuSphere HD-9 also provides a low-cost upgrade to trainers currently integrated with L-3 Links SimuSphere visual displays, in addition to offering a cost-effective option for any fast jet simulator. The PAFs F-16C Block 52 ATDs will support new pilot, pilot conversion and advanced skills training. The trainers will incorporate L-3 Links simulated Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System, enabling pilots to practice control of aircraft targeting systems and sensors. In addition, pilots will be able to wear their own night vision goggles when conducting simulated nighttime missions. The two F-16C Block 52 ATDs will be supported by one mission support system, and each simulator will also have a dedicated instructor/operator station. L-3 Link is the leading provider of F-16 simulators worldwide. Since the 1970s, the company has delivered approximately 140 F-16 training devices in support of the U.S. Air Force, Air National Guard and 10 foreign nations. L-3 Link Simulation & Training is a world leader in providing total training solutions for operators and maintainers across a wide range of military platforms and air traffic control systems. The company has delivered military training systems to customer locations throughout North America, Europe, Asia and the Pacific Rim. L-3 Link is headquartered in Arlington, Texas, with key bases of operation in Binghamton, N.Y.; Orlando, Fla.; Oklahoma City,


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## Jango

Do the PAF F-16 also have tail hooks as the other ones?

The tail hooks are used for tethering the aircraft during engine tests etc, but another use is of arresting the aircraft at the end of the runway in case of brake failure or runway over run. Just like an Aircraft carrier but on the ground and as a redundancy.

Does the PAF have arresting cables at the end of it's runways? The USAF has them.


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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Do the PAF F-16 also have tail hooks as the other ones?
> 
> The tail hooks are used for tethering the aircraft during engine tests etc, but another use is of arresting the aircraft at the end of the runway in case of brake failure or runway over run. Just like an Aircraft carrier but on the ground and as a redundancy.
> 
> Does the PAF have arresting cables at the end of it's runways? The USAF has them.



They have chutes for the situation, I don't know the rest. However in my view it would be suffice to use chutes and not have the arrest cables.


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## Windjammer



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## Donatello

Last Hope said:


> They have chutes for the situation, I don't know the rest. However in my view it would be suffice to use chutes and not have the arrest cables.



I think chutes are only on the new C/D F-16s of PAF.........not on the older ones...


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## Capt.Popeye

nuclearpak said:


> Do the PAF F-16 also have tail hooks as the other ones?
> 
> The tail hooks are used for tethering the aircraft during engine tests etc, but another use is of arresting the aircraft at the end of the runway in case of brake failure or runway over run. Just like an Aircraft carrier but on the ground and as a redundancy.
> 
> Does the PAF have arresting cables at the end of it's runways? The USAF has them.



I do not think so. 
However Arrestor Net Barriers are available for the purpose. In dire straits, they can be erected in minutes and used. After the Tail Braking Chute(s) have failed/broken away, this method works. Finally, there is the overrun area after the end of the runway with gravel, then sand which will stop the aircraft. Arrestor wires (on land) with a tail-hook combination are an expensive/complicated proposition considering that they are likely to be seldom used.


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## sancho

Donatello said:


> Though i agree with the philosophy part, but MLU f-16s with AIM120s can take on anything in our adversary on east's inventory, including the upcoming Rafale.
> 
> BUt yea, i guess it is time to move on



Actually it don't since the versions you get are technically limited, compared to what LM other F16 operating countries have, to what radars, EW systems and missile combos IAF has and even to what JF 17 and J10Bs will bring to PAF.
I know that you and many Pakistani members might not like it, but the time of F16s beeing the prime fighter in PAF is nearing it's end, since China offers you more.
More agile WVR missile, BVR missiles with longer range than the AIM 120C5s are under development, integration of Raad, possibility of AESA radar and IRST, anti radiation missiles, heck even mid air refuelling. The Chinese fighters will make PAF much more capable in combination with tankers and AWACS, since the package of capabilities they offer is simply up to date, while even the F16 B52s hardly provide more than air defence and CAS capability now. 
The F16 is still a highly capable multi role fighter, but as long as PAF don't get AIM 9X, AIM120D, AESA radar, better EWS, JSOW and SEAD capability, a lot of it's potential is cut down.

Btw, taking on Rafale F3+ ?

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## Manticore

The variety of weapons, costomizations and future upgrades that we can do on jf17s and j10b are far more than what we can ever achieve via f16s --- right now ideally, additional f16s should be considered as a stop gap measure and our future should not be built around it --- however its difficult to think objectively when our economy is crippled by dishonest politicians

If we have to choose between j31 and j10b, then the way to go ahead would be j31 from china and used f16s from the u.s at cheep price --- but who know if we are even at that financial capability or not

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## Donatello

sancho said:


> Actually it don't since the versions you get are technically limited, compared to what LM other F16 operating countries have, to what radars, EW systems and missile combos IAF has and even to what JF 17 and J10Bs will bring to PAF.
> I know that you and many Pakistani members might not like it, but the time of F16s beeing the prime fighter in PAF is nearing it's end, since China offers you more.
> More agile WVR missile, BVR missiles with longer range than the AIM 120C5s are under development, integration of Raad, possibility of AESA radar and IRST, anti radiation missiles, heck even mid air refuelling. The Chinese fighters will make PAF much more capable in combination with tankers and AWACS, since the package of capabilities they offer is simply up to date, while even the F16 B52s hardly provide more than air defence and CAS capability now.
> The F16 is still a highly capable multi role fighter, but as long as PAF don't get AIM 9X, AIM120D, AESA radar, better EWS, JSOW and SEAD capability, a lot of it's potential is cut down.
> 
> Btw, taking on Rafale F3+ ?



Nobody is doubting the Chinese weapons procurement, and for the foreseeable future that is the only option considering the amount of literally unlimited options Pakistan can play with.

My point is, that MLU-ed F-16s can easily match any 4 to 4.5 gen fighter in India's Hand for the next 10 years. If we can get used F-16s and get them MLU-ed to last even another 3000 hours, it would that proverbial a bird in hand is better than two in the bush thing. PAF has unmatched experience of F-16s since what? 3 decades!!! It's a plane we know inside out and hence any new versions would easily absorbed by the flying pilots.

Which brings me to your comment about Rafale, which IAF pilots have no real world flying experience in........(Sorry, but flying for MMRCA tender evaluations doesn't count) 


Rafale F3+? Seriously? Is that level you stoop down to?

First get Rafale inducted, let alone upgrades.

You need to raise a squadron of Rafales first, get pilots experience. You think an average IAF bloke can jump in Rafale F3+ and take on PAF f-16s with pilots who have been flying for decades? If you say yes, i guess you are just kidding yourself. By the time Rafales are flying with IAF, even JF-17 pilots would've been flying JF-17s for 5 years!!!!

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## muse

Donnatello:

Take your point, but is it not time to move on? When will we in your opinion, be positioned to move on - This whole US thing has no where to go, that is to say there is nothing US or Pakistan can do or say they will do, that is going to chance or effect public opinion in either country in a positive way, in a long term way, there appears to be no confluence of broad interest nor the possibility of such in the near term - so when do we cut our losses and position ourselves to be beyond the US and here I mean US equipment ?

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## Imran Khan



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## Chanakyaa

Donatello said:


> Nobody is doubting the Chinese weapons procurement, and for the foreseeable future that is the only option considering the amount of literally unlimited options Pakistan can play with.
> 
> My point is, that MLU-ed F-16s can easily match any 4 to 4.5 gen fighter in India's Hand for the next 10 years. If we can get used F-16s and get them MLU-ed to last even another 3000 hours, it would that proverbial a bird in hand is better than two in the bush thing. PAF has unmatched experience of F-16s since what? 3 decades!!! It's a plane we know inside out and hence any new versions would easily absorbed by the flying pilots.
> 
> Which brings me to your comment about Rafale, which IAF pilots have no real world flying experience in........(Sorry, but flying for MMRCA tender evaluations doesn't count)
> 
> 
> Rafale F3+? Seriously? Is that level you stoop down to?
> 
> First get Rafale inducted, let alone upgrades.
> 
> You need to raise a squadron of Rafales first, get pilots experience. You think an average IAF bloke can jump in Rafale F3+ and *take on PAF f-16s with pilots who have been flying for decades? If you say yes, i guess you are just kidding yourself. *By the time Rafales are flying with IAF, even JF-17 pilots would've been flying JF-17s for 5 years!!!!



With all due respect, IAF Has Far Far More Experiance Than PAF ( As Far as F16s & Countermeasures are Concerned ).
IAF has been regularily having Excersises AGAINST F16 52 , and Singapore AF has been Given a Regular Base as Well, In a sharp contrast Su MKI ( Very Very Different frm Su 30 MK ) is an Alien Bird for PAF.

We Know F16 Much Better Than PAF Knows MKI ( Or for that matter Rafale in Future )


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## SQ8

XiNiX said:


> With all due respect, IAF Has Far Far More Experiance Than PAF ( As Far as F16s are Concerned ).
> IAF has been regularily having Excersises AGAINST F16 52 , and Singapore AF has been Given a Regular Base as Well, In a sharp contrast Su MKI ( Very Very Different frm Su 30 MK ) is an Alien Bird for PAF.
> 
> *We Know F16 Much Better Than PAF Knows MKI *( Or for that matter Rafale in Future )



But then again... it is up to the user how the weapon system is employed. The IAF can only learn so much about the aircraft and not its employment tactics within the PAF. 
After all, the USAF knows all about the Mig-29 through its early evaluations(with Israel) in the late 80's and early 90's.
Yet, when the unification of germany happened and Luftwaffe pilots went up against USAF units.. they showed different tactics that ended up surprising the Americans. The problem was not that the USAF did not know about how the mig-29 flew and its limitations.. 
It DID NOT KNOW HOW THE LUFTWAFFE PILOTS WOULD EMPLOY THEM

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## Donatello

XiNiX said:


> *With all due respect, IAF Has Far Far More Experiance Than PAF ( As Far as F16s & Countermeasures are Concerned ).*
> IAF has been regularily having Excersises AGAINST F16 52 , and Singapore AF has been Given a Regular Base as Well, In a sharp contrast Su MKI ( Very Very Different frm Su 30 MK ) is an Alien Bird for PAF.
> 
> We Know F16 Much Better Than PAF Knows MKI ( Or for that matter Rafale in Future )



That is total bullshit. IAF doesn't have anything with respect to F-16 as much as PAF knows it. PAF OWNS and Operates F-16s. IAF can never match that. Get over it!!

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## Chanakyaa

Donatello said:


> That is total bullshit. IAF doesn't have anything with respect to F-16 as much as PAF knows it. PAF OWNS and Operates F-16s. IAF can never match that. !!



True & Correct.

Now Please Read My Post and Oscar's Reply.


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## Edevelop

ANTIBODY said:


> The variety of weapons, costomizations and future upgrades that we can do on jf17s and j10b are far more than what we can ever achieve via f16s --- right now ideally, additional f16s should be considered as a stop gap measure and our future should not be built around it --- however its difficult to think objectively when our economy is crippled by dishonest politicians
> 
> If we have to choose between j31 and j10b, then the way to go ahead would be j31 from china and used f16s from the u.s at cheep price --- but who know if we are even at that financial capability or not



Notice the top 3 are Generals. It is evident that they were all pro US and thus had received Aid. It started from Ayub Khan to counter Soviets, then went on to Gen Zia Haq due to Afghan War and then came to Musharraf era due to 9/11 War against Terror.

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## sancho

You are putting too much emotions in these things, instead of looking at it with a more rational view.




Donatello said:


> My point is, that MLU-ed F-16s can easily match any 4 to 4.5 gen fighter in India's Hand for the next 10 years.



As I said, technically it lacks the mentioned capabilities and that even compared against IAFs low end (Mig 29UPG, Mirage 2000-5, LCA), let alone MKIs and Rafales. 
In WVR combats for example, the lack of an agile IR missile is a clear disadvantage. Beeing limited to radar to detect targets is another, while modern fighters also offers passive detection capabilities, be it with IRST, RWR, MAWS, LWR, ESM...
That's what I said earlier, these things are partially available to PAF through JF 17, or coming in later JFT blocks or J10s, while they will be the standard for IAF, especially for the upgraded or newly added fighter types. 

You can compare that also to the F16s of Israel, Singapore, or S. Korea, that have integrated US and Israeli EW systems, or more capable missiles too, which shows the differences as well, let alone to UAEs B60.




Donatello said:


> Which brings me to your comment about Rafale



My comment was based on the technical difference between both fighters, not on any emotional issues. It's technically simply more than a class apart, no matter if you like it or not!

If you look at the facts, you would understand that it doesn't matter how much experience PAF pilots have with F16s, because for once that is only experience for the base fighter, not the 4 th gen capabilities which are new to PAF as well and secondly because experience of the pilots won't make the F16... 

less detectable to Rafales AESA, or to SPECTRA sensors
...capable to detect Rafale earlier
...missile combo as good as MICA / METEOR
...flight performance as good as Rafales
...EWS as good as SPECTRA


These are technical differences that PAF can't counter with the limitations in the US export policy towards your country and has nothing to do with India or IAF.


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> But then again... it is up to the user how the weapon system is employed. The IAF can only learn so much about the aircraft and not its employment tactics within the PAF.
> After all, the USAF knows all about the Mig-29 through its early evaluations(with Israel) in the late 80's and early 90's.
> Yet, when the unification of germany happened and Luftwaffe pilots went up against USAF units.. they showed different tactics that ended up surprising the Americans. The problem was not that the USAF did not know about how the mig-29 flew and its limitations..
> It DID NOT KNOW HOW THE LUFTWAFFE PILOTS WOULD EMPLOY THEM



You are right about, that India won't learn about the tactics PAF would use, just by training with F16s of Singapore or Israel, but the part about the Migs is not correct. 

The surprising point was not how the German piltos flew them, but the technical capabilities the Migs had, compared to the once that Israel and the US tested! The Germans tested Mig 29s with HMS and R73 missiles, which turned out to be a threat for their Phantom fighters, because the R73 was way more agile than western counterparts. The Migs the US trained with, didn't had such capabilities, therefor the US couldn't train to counter this until they know about it. The result was, to improve their own HMS capabilities and develop modern WVR missiles with comparable capabilities as R73. That's why Asraam, IRIS-T, AIM9X or MICA were developed with TVC and high off boresight seekers.


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## SQ8

sancho said:


> You are right about, that India won't learn about the tactics PAF would use, just by training with F16s of Singapore or Israel, but the part about the Migs is not correct.
> 
> *The surprising point was not how the German piltos flew them*, but the technical capabilities the Migs had, compared to the once that Israel and the US tested! The Germans tested Mig 29s with HMS and R73 missiles, which turned out to be a threat for their Phantom fighters, because the R73 was way more agile than western counterparts. The Migs the US trained with, didn't had such capabilities, therefor the US couldn't train to counter this until they know about it. The result was, to improve their own HMS capabilities and develop modern WVR missiles with comparable capabilities as R73. That's why Asraam, IRIS-T, AIM9X or MICA were developed with TVC and high off boresight seekers.



Undoubtedly the archer played a great role ..but the Luftwaffe put some of its best pilots into those fighters. They knew how to use the system to its *maximum potential.*


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## sancho

Oscar said:


> Undoubtedly the archer played a great role ..but the Luftwaffe put some of its best pilots into those fighters. They knew how to use the system to its *maximum potential.*



They had to, because they wasn't trained on them either, but wanted to learn about the advantages and disadvantages and these Migs were technically the most capable, the western countries got their hands on at that time:



> *Positives*
> 
> But when all that is said and done, the MiG-29 is a superb fighter for close-in combat, even compared with aircraft like the F-15, F-16 and F/A-18. This is due to the aircrafts superb aerodynamics and helmet mounted sight. Inside ten nautical miles Im hard to defeat, and with the IRST, helmet sight and Archer I cant be beaten. Period. Even against the latest Block 50 F-16s the MiG-29 is virtually invulnerable in the close-in scenario. On one occasion I remember the F-16s did score some kills eventually, but only after taking 18 Archers. We didnt operate kill removal (forcing killed aircraft to leave the fight) since theyd have got no training value, we killed them too quickly. (Just as we might seldom have got close-in if they used their AMRAAMs BVR!) They couldnt believe it at the debrief, they got up and left the room!
> 
> "They might not like it, but with a 28deg/sec instantaneous turn rate (compared to the Block 50 F-16's 26deg) we can out-turn them. Our stable, manually controlled airplane can out-turn their FBW aircraft. But the real edge we have is the Archer which can reliably lock on to targets 45deg off-boresight...



Luftwaffe MiG-29 experience - positives and negatives


Sorry for the OT post and no comparison to IAF intended, just for information reasons!


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## Thorough Pro

Foreign aid has nothing to do with GDP growth. Your GDP grows with sensible economic policies and peoples confidence in the governwemnt.


Give me one example of any economic policy of this governemnt aimed at improving the economy?



cb4 said:


> Notice the top 3 are Generals. It is evident that they were all pro US and thus had received Aid. It started from Ayub Khan to counter Soviets, then went on to Gen Zia Haq due to Afghan War and then came to Musharraf era due to 9/11 War against Terror.


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## razgriz19

nuclearpak said:


> That's a great watch by the looks of it.



could be a Breitling...
My most favorite watch maker.

They make watches for pilots and aviation purposes.


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## Abu Zolfiqar

nuclearpak said:


> Do the PAF F-16 also have tail hooks as the other ones?
> 
> The tail hooks are used for tethering the aircraft during engine tests etc, but another use is of arresting the aircraft at the end of the runway in case of brake failure or runway over run. Just like an Aircraft carrier but on the ground and as a redundancy.
> 
> Does the PAF have arresting cables at the end of it's runways? The USAF has them.



I was under impression that arrestor hook is only for use on aircrafts assigned to carriers during carrier landings (which are very complex an difficult to master)

For runways I think parachute is sufficient


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## Jango

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I was under impression that arrestor hook is only for use on aircrafts assigned to carriers during carrier landings (which are very complex an difficult to master)
> 
> For runways I think parachute is sufficient



That was my initial thought as well, but F-16's don't land on A/C, and USAF uses the arrestor cables on it's runways just before the run-off area at the end in case something goes wrong.

The Israeli F-15 in '83 had the arrestor cable to thank! Although the hook broke off in the end, but it slowed down the aircraft's speed...


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## jahanzeb111

y israeli pilots r termed as best in the world??? the thing is israelis won air battle against the weak arabs when v compare jet/technology......
they could be best when they will up against the airforces- head-to-head in jet/technology

paf pilots shot down many israeli jets but no one talks about our pilots. 

and y israel has free hand to destroy any one, on the other hand v cant use f16 when v want..... 

comment plz........

y israeli pilots r termed as best in the world??? the thing is israelis won air battle against the weak arabs when v compare jet/technology......
they could be best when they will up against the airforces- head-to-head in jet/technology

paf pilots shot down many israeli jets but no one talks about our pilots. 

and y israel has free hand to destroy any one, on the other hand v cant use f16 when v want..... 

comment plz........


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## Peaceful Civilian

Could it be possible to test our Raad cruise missile from F16???


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## krash

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> I was under impression that arrestor hook is only for use on aircrafts assigned to carriers during carrier landings (which are very complex an difficult to master)
> 
> For runways I think parachute is sufficient



Some videos in addition to what nucleapak explained:













All sorts of emergency stopping systems:

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## Thorough Pro

I remember in the old days many of PAF runways used to have end of the runway nets to stop run away planes.


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## krash

Dont know if this has been shared here before...

Hand over ceremony of the first MLUed PAF F-16 from TAI:


















That is one hell of a looker....the bird, not anyone of the old chaps.

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## fatman17

krash said:


> Dont know if this has been shared here before...
> 
> Hand over ceremony of the first MLUed PAF F-16 from TAI:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is one hell of a looker....the bird, not anyone of the old chaps.



these birds will be good for another 20 years

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## fatman17

*Chinese missile may be for Pakistan's F-16s:*


Last posted:
*2004-04-14*

China is about to bring a second beyond-visual-range (BVR) air-to-air missile (AAM) to the export market. The new weapon, to be known as the FD-60, is already in service with the People's Liberation Army Air Force as the PL-11. 

In China it equips the Shen- yang J-8II 'Finback' interceptor but, according to the manufacturer, the export version is intended for the F-16 - a clear signal that Pakistan could be the lead customer. 

Development of the FD-60 (PL-11) began in 1987 and was completed in 2000, according to the China National Precision Machinery Import & Export Corporation (CPMIEC). The weapon is described as an air-launched version of the LY-60 surface-to-air missile. It uses semi-active radar homing and has a range of 20-25km. 

The missile borrows heavily from Aspide technology supplied by Italy before an arms embargo was imposed on China following the Tiananmen Square massacre. 

China also had access to early-model US-built AIM-7 Sparrow missiles acquired via Vietnam, from which the Aspide itself is derived. Since the late 1980s Chinese technicians have been developing a Sparrow-class missile that led to the LY-60 and FD-60weapons. 

Until now most observers had assessed the PL-11/FD-60 programme as a largely unsuccessful effort that had been overtaken by the more advanced PL-12/SD-10 active-radar AAM, developed under the leadership of the China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corp (CATIC). However, it now appears that work on the PL-11/FD-60 has continued, perhaps to provide a back-up capability in the event of problems with the PL-12/SD-10 but also because CPMIEC has identified an export market for the missile. 

As the FD-60 is based largely on the Aspide/Sparrow design, integrating it with US-built aircraft should be relatively straightforward. Such a missile would be of great interest to existing customers of Chinese equipment, such as Pakistan and Iran, that have inventories of US fighters for which they cannot obtain advanced weapons - chiefly BVR missiles. 

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is already working on acquiring a BVR combat capability through the SD-10 and JF-17 Thunder (CATIC FC-1 fighter) combination. However, the opportunity to add a BVR AAM to its inventory much sooner (via the F-16) would surely be seized by the PAF command, which has already identified such weapons as one of its highest acquisition priorities.


_did this initiative see the light of day or not?_


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## Najam Khan

nuclearpak said:


> *Do the PAF F-16 also have tail hooks as the other ones?*
> 
> The tail hooks are used for tethering the aircraft during engine tests etc, but another use is of arresting the aircraft at the end of the runway in case of brake failure or runway over run. Just like an Aircraft carrier but on the ground and as a redundancy.
> 
> Does the PAF have arresting cables at the end of it's runways? The USAF has them.



Yes F-16s have them, you can see that hook present between the ventral fins (on the left of centerline fuel tank) in the following photo. 








> _A US Air Force F-16 Fighting Falcon based at Misawa AB, Japan, is shown after engine shutdown during the annual test of the aircraft arresting barrier system at Yokota AB, Japan, on 13 July 2011. *The system is used in the event of an emergency where a fighter or similar aircraft cannot stop on its own. The aircraft's tailhook catches the cable stretched across the runway and massive hydraulic reels slowly bring the aircraft to a stop.*_ : Code one








@Windjammer, Kindly don't post references to copyrights violated photos. If people will start cropping pics from PAFwallpapers, I might have to become strict on that watermark policy again.

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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> *Chinese missile may be for Pakistan's F-16s:*
> 
> ...
> _did this initiative see the light of day or not?_



For Pakistan, I highly doubt it, with the 24/7 US surveillance on our aircraft.

It would be much more suited to the Iranians than us.
@Najam Khan, only Blk-52's? And secondly, are PAF crews trained on them?


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## Najam Khan

nuclearpak said:


> For Pakistan, I highly doubt it, with the 24/7 US surveillance on our aircraft.
> 
> It would be much more suited to the Iranians than us.
> * @Najam Khan, only Blk-52's? And secondly, are PAF crews trained on them?*



No all models, I mistakenly mentioned 52+ only. 
See the pictures of PAF F-16 in izmir air show, those A/B models have that as well. And Yes its part of standard training.

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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day
&#8220;Hold your stick, or lose your balls.&#8221; 
-- Bumper sticker*

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## Windjammer

Najam Khan said:


> @Windjammer, Kindly don't post references to copyrights violated photos. If people will start cropping pics from PAFwallpapers, I might have to become strict on that watermark policy again.


 @Najam Khan, kindly expand on that, which picture(s) are you referring to.


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## Windjammer



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## Jango

Windjammer said:


>



Is he doing something to his HUD or taking a photo from his camera?

Baat se baat nikli, are HUD's adjustable?

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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> Is he doing something to his HUD or taking a photo from his camera?
> 
> Baat se baat nikli, are HUD's adjustable?








Taking pictures during Red Flag, I believe HUD is a fixed unit, it's said that if an F-16's canopy goes, the HUD acts as a shield against turbulence.

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## Meejee

Windjammer said:


> Taking pictures during Red Flag, I believe HUD is a fixed unit, it's said that if an F-16's canopy goes, the HUD acts as a shield against turbulence.



Why do they have two tones to the two pieces of the glass canopy.


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## Jango

Meejee said:


> Why do they have two tones to the two pieces of the glass canopy.



Maybe they needed replacement on the front part and the replacement just happened to be of the RAM coating at that time.

BTW, how do two seat figher jets eject? I mean that do both the pilots eject at once if any one person pulls the handle, or do both have to pull their handles independently. As I understand, both need to eject independently.

But that raises a question. Is the ejection of the canopy also independent. i.e the front part of the canopy blows off if the pilot in the front ejects while the rear part stays?

And if it is like that, then wouldn't it create a sort of a hole...the onrushing air will get trapped into the cavity of the rear cockpit while the rear canopy is closed.

May seem like a stupid question...but answers would be appreciated. @gambit...


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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> Maybe they needed replacement on the front part and the replacement just happened to be of the RAM coating at that time.
> 
> BTW, how do two seat figher jets eject? I mean that do both the pilots eject at once if any one person pulls the handle, or do both have to pull their handles independently. As I understand, both need to eject independently.
> 
> But that raises a question. Is the ejection of the canopy also independent. i.e the front part of the canopy blows off if the pilot in the front ejects while the rear part stays?
> 
> And if it is like that, then wouldn't it create a sort of a hole...the onrushing air will get trapped into the cavity of the rear cockpit while the rear canopy is closed.
> 
> May seem like a stupid question...but answers would be appreciated. @gambit...



You need to watch 'Behind enemy lines' to see how two pilots eject separately in an F-18.

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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> You need to watch 'Behind enemy lines' to see how two pilots eject separately in an F-18.



And you need to watch TOPGUN to watch how two pilots eject at the same time!!!

I know that both pilots eject separately.

My point was, that if both pilots eject separately, then does the canopy of the GIBS also go off?

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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> And you need to watch TOPGUN to watch how two pilots eject at the same time!!!
> 
> I know that both pilots eject separately.
> 
> My point was, that if both pilots eject separately, then does the canopy of the GIBS also go off?

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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> And you need to watch TOPGUN to watch how two pilots eject at the same time!!!
> 
> I know that both pilots eject separately.
> 
> My point was, that if both pilots eject separately, then does the canopy of the GIBS also go off?



The dual seat F-16s have a single piece canopy unlike older aircraft like the Phantom, which had two independent cockpits.

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## gambit

*- For dual cockpits dual canopies:* Each cockpit/canopy combo have its own sequence, first goes canopy, then seat. So technically speaking, there are two separate events per combo.

Things get a bit complicated...

Take the F-4, which is dual cockpits dual canopies, as example. The forward cockpit can initiate only both, while the aft cockpit can initiate self or both. When the forward cockpit initiate, the sequence is: aft, a .75 sec delay, then forward. This is to avoid collision. The reasoning is that since the forward cockpit is the aircraft commander, if he decide to go, then the ship must be in really bad shape so there is no sense for his WSO to remain.

There are obvious reasons as to why the aft cockpit is allowed to initiate only self so no need to go into any details there. But if the aft cockpit must initiate both, like if the aircraft commander is incapacitated, then there is a manual switch in the rear cockpit that must be selected to initiate both. The sequence is still the same: aft, delay, then forward. Therefore, it make sense to have the switch is defaulted to self in order to prevent accidental ejection of both.

Now...If both cockpits decide to initiate, meaning both pilots pull their handles at the same time, the system will see it as if the forward cockpit is the one who initiated. If the aft cockpit initiate (self) a fraction sooner than the forward, then the system will subtract that fraction from that .75 sec built in delay. In other words, if the aft cockpit initiate at time stamp 1 sec, and the forward cockpit initiate at time stamp 1.25 sec, then the delay is .5 sec, so the forward cockpit will eject at time stamp 1.75 sec. If the initiation times are greater than that .75 built in delay, then there is no delay at all for the forward cockpit.

So for the forward cockpit, just because he pull the ejection handle, that does not mean he will leave immediately. Everything is dependent upon the existence of the aft cockpit.

*- For dual cockpits single canopy:* Either cockpit initiation will eject the canopy.

For the F-16B/D, there is a switch in aft cockpit that goes: AFT - NORM - SOLO.

If the switch is in AFT, it means either cockpit can initiate ejection for both cockpits with the aft cockpit leaving first.

If the switch is in NORM, it means if the front cockpit initiate, both cockpits goes with the aft cockpit first, then forward. If the aft cockpit initiate, then only the aft cockpit eject, the forward remain.

If the switch is in SOLO, then either cockpit can initiate only self. But there is no delay so the possibility of collision is high.

Other aircrafts that have dual cockpits will have slightly different switch configurations and research are required for specific aircraft. The F-16B/D ejection sequence is designed that way because there is a need for command override in either cockpit, meaning one cockpit's command will override the other, so that mean aircraft commander, like an instructor, may be in the aft. The F-4's flight control system is mechanical-hydraulics so to prevent conflict, one pilot must be willing to physically cede control if necessary, so the aircraft commander is assumed to be forward, and that mean if he says 'Go', both pilot goes.

Not exactly an easy subject, eh? 



> And if it is like that, then wouldn't it create a sort of a hole...the onrushing air will get trapped into the cavity of the rear cockpit while the rear canopy is closed.


It would make for a very uncomfortable flight for whoever remain, but most fighters today can compensate for this situation.

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## Windjammer

*Up close 'n personal.  *

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## Last Hope

On June 28/06, the US DSCA notified Congress via a series of releases of its intention to provide Pakistan with a $5.1 billion Foreign Military Sales package to upgrade the F-16s that serve as the PAFs top of the line fighters. Some of these items had been put on hold following the October 2005 earthquake in Pakistan & Kashmir, but the request for 36 new F-16 Block 50/52s is now going ahead, along with new weapons, engine modifications, and upgrade kits for Pakistans older F-16 A/Bs. The buy went through, and was accompanied by the supply of 26 older F-16s from USAF surplus stocks.

These items are detailed below, along with controversies the proposed sales have created, and some of the conditions attached to the sale by the US government:

Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s  $3 billion
Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s  $650 Million
Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits  $1.3 billion
Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR  $151 Million
Deal Updates and Progress [updated]
Potential Controversies (July 2006)
Additional Readings [updated]
Advertisement

Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s  $3 billion

PAF F-16D Block 52
(click to view full)
The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of up to 36 F-16C Block 50 and F-16D Block 52 two-seater aircraft  a buy of 18 jets, with an option for another 18. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $3 billion.

The planes will be equipped with the APG-68(V)9 radars, which are the most modern F-16 radar except for the UAEs F-16E/F Block 60 Desert Falcons and their AN/APG-80 AESA. The engine contract was less certain. Pakistans existing F-16s use the Pratt & Whitney F100 engine, the new planes involved a competition between Pratt & Whitneys F100-PW-229 or General Electrics F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs). Pratt & Whitney kept their customer, and supplied the new F-16s with their F100-PW-229 EEP variant.

The package for Pakistans new F-16s also includes:

7 spare F100-PW-229 EEP or F110-GE-129 IPE engines (F100-PW-229 EEP selected)
7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets 
36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II
36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircrafts sides to give them extra range
36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; see tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems
36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems
36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare (ALQ-211 AIDEW) Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (picked); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM
1 Unit Level Trainer
Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability.
The principal contractors under Pakistans Peace Drive buy will be:

Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, TX
Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control, Dallas, TX
BAE Advanced Systems Greenlawn, NY
Boeing Corporation Seattle, WA
Boeing Integrated Defense Systems: St Louis, MO; Long Beach, CA; San Diego, CA
Raytheon Company: Lexington, MA; Goleta, CA
Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, AZ
Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX
Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD
United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT; or
General Electric Aircraft Engines in Cincinnati, OH
There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support and program management of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF].

Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s  $650 Million

To equip those new F-16s, the Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:

500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)
12 AMRAAM training missiles  these have seeker warheads but lack engines
200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X.
240 LAU-129/A Launchers  these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles.
500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits
1,600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 (500 lb.) and GBU-24s (2,000 lb.) with dual laser/GPS guidance
800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs
700 BLU-109 2,000 pound bunker-buster bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse
Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability will also be provided.
The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $650 million. The principal contractors will be:

BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY
Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX
Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX
Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX
Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD
There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF format].

Item 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits  $1.3 billion

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:

APG-68v9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar, which is a much smaller improvement on earlier F-16s. The APG-68 with SAR is far better at air to ground work, and can be used to monitor ground activity.
Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems
Have Quick I/II Radios
Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT)
SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability
Reconnaissance pod capability
Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (used for training exercises)
MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
1 Unit Level Trainer; and
10 APG-68v9 spare radar sets.
Radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support.
JHMCS
The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $1.3 billion.

According to the US DSCA, Pakistan intends to purchase the MLU Program equipment to enhance survivability, communications connectivity, and extend the useful life of its F-16A/B fighter aircraft. The modifications and upgrades in this proposed sale will permit Pakistans F-16A/B squadron to operate safely, and enhance Pakistans conventional deterrent capability. Pakistans air fleet can readily use these updates to enhance and extend the life of its aircraft.

The principal contractors will be:

BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY
Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX
Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX
Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX
Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD
Turkish Aerospace Industries isnt mentioned here, but they ended up with a contract to perform the upgrades on 36 F-16A/B aircraft. Theyve been doing similar work for Turkey, and for other F-16 customers in the Middle East.

There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives. See DSCA release [PDF].

InsideDefense.com makes the interesting observation that Pakistan doesnt have 60 F-16s to upgrade . The clear implication is that the Pakistani government is interested in buying used F-16s and upgrading them, which proved to be the case. As part of the deal for new planes, in Sept 30/06 the USA also agreed to deliver 26 of the Peace Gate III/IV F-16A/B Block 15OCUs that had been ordered in 1988-1989, then embargoed when Pakistan tested nuclear weapons. After the embargo, the planes had been diverted for use as aggressor combat training aircraft by USAF and the US Navy.

Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR  $151 Million

F100 Engine Test
The third contract involves Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million.

More specifically, the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of:

14 F100-PW-220E engines 
14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits
De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft
Support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program.
The principal contractors will be:

Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX
United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT.
There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale, but implementation of the engine modifications and UP/STAR repairs will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF].

Deal Updates and Progress

2012
Optional short yearly wrap-up.

PAF F-16A
(click to view full)
April 3/12: EW. ITT Exelis announces that $54 million has finalized a contract to provide Pakistan with some of its AIDEWS electronic warfare pods (vid. March 19/08, June 26/08, July 5/11, and July 20/11 entries). The 2008 contract had been for $78.2 million, and the July 2011 contract added $49.1 million, creating a current total of $181.3 million, plus over $9 million to integrate them with their F-16s AN/ALQ-231 central electronic warfare systems.
The ALQ-211 based Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System (AIDEWS ) integrates digital radar warning receivers and advanced jamming countermeasures systems against radar-based threats, including modern surface-to-air and air-to-air weapon systems. It can be carried on a pod, as Pakistan is doing, or internally as the AN/ALQ-211v4.

Feb 6/12: New deliveries done. The PAF receives its 18th and final new F-16 Block 52, and its its first 2 Mid-Life Upgrade F-16s, at PAF Shahbaz airbase. The last new F-16 was an F-16D that had remained in the US for testing & trials. F-16.net .

2011
Optional short yearly wrap-up.

July 30/11: J-10s. The PAF will be flying a squadron of Chinese J-10B fighters alongside its F-16s, as a gift from China. The official offer was reportedly presented to the Pakistan Armys Chief of General Staff, Lt. Gen. Waheed Arshad, during a week-long visit to Beijing.

The Chinese have also pledged 50 co-developed JF-17 Thunder fighters in recent months, but the J-10Bs are different because they offer total performance on par with, or even superior to, the PAFs new F-16C/D Block 52 fighter standard. Pakistan Kakhuda Hafiz | Economic Times of India | Defense Update | DefenseWorld .

July 29/11: Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co. in Fort Worth, TX receives a $42.3 million firm-fixed-price and cost-plus-fixed-fee contract for 10 additional Pakistan F-16 A/B Block 15 Aircraft Enhanced Modernization Program kits. The ASC/WWMK at Wright-Patterson AFB, OH manages the contract on behalf of its foreign Military Sale client (FA8615-07-C-6032, PO 0038).

July 26/11: Fragile alliance. At the US House Foreign Affairs Committees hearings on Reassessing American Grand Strategy in South Asia , John J. Tkacik, the U.S. Department of State Bureau of Intelligence and Researchs Former Chief of China Analysis, submits The Enemy of Hegemony is My Friend: Pakistans de facto Alliance with China  [PDF]. Key excerpt:

China has always been Pakistans most important strategic ally,2 and the intensity of Pakistans relationship with the United States has always been a subset of Pakistans all-consuming strategic calculus about India For the United States to achieve a true strategic partnership with Pakistan, it must share Pakistans posture toward India. It follows, then, that subduing India also demands acquiescing in Chinas ultimate hegemony in Asia. In reassessing Americas grand strategy in South Asia, the United States must first reassess its global grand strategy. If America can live with an Asia under Chinese hegemony, and with a crippled India, then America can have Pakistans enthusiastic partnership against the Taliban. Decisions like this are, as they say, above my pay grade.

July 22/11: Training. L-3 Communications Link Simulation and Training division in Arlington, TX receives a $20.6 million firm-fixed-price contract for 1 aircrew training system (ATS) to support Pakistan air force F-16 pilot training. Work will be performed at Arlington, Texas, overseen by ASC/WNSK at Wright-Patterson AFB, OH, on behalf of their Pakistani FMS client. Both simulators, scheduled for delivery in 2013, will be installed and networked at the PAFs Shahbaz Air Base.

The ATS consists of 2 upgraded F-16 ATS devices with an 18 panel simusphere for 360 degree viewing: a new F-16A Block 15/52 ATS; and a less flexible new F-16C Block 52 ATS. The contract also includes 21 months contractor logistics support (12 months on-site and 9 months on-call); common ATS Block 15 and Block 52 software load; high fidelity cockpit; 360 horizontal X250; version MMC 7000 hardware and software; geo-specific database of Pakistan with high resolution features; full simulation of the APG-68v9 radar with digital radar land mass simulation; full weapons simulation incl. Maverick missile, targeting pod, JHMCS helmet mounted sights; threat environment A-G and spot jamming simulation; emergency procedures and malfunctions simulation; and an instructor-operator station to make pilots lives difficult in pre-planned ways. Fort Worth Star-Telegram | Pakistans The Nation .

July 20/11: EW. Georgia Tech Applied Research Corp. in Atlanta, GA received a $9.2 million cost-plus-fixed-fee Foreign Military Sales contract to integrate ITTs AN/ALQ-211v9 AIDEW pod and software into Pakistans existing AN/ALQ-213 [PDF] countermeasures set from Terma. The ALQ-213 CMS electronic warfare suite provides centralized control/resources management of the F-16s defensive suites, so the pod and CMS controller need to work together.

Work will be performed in Atlanta, GA, and is expected to be complete by July 2014. The ESG/PKS DTIC at Offutt AFB, NB, manages the contract on behalf of its FMS client (HC1047-05-D-4000).

July 19/11: The US GAO releases report #GAO-11-786R: Pakistan Assistance: Relatively Little of the $3 Billion in Requested Assistance is Subject to States Certification of Pakistans Progress on Nonproliferation and Counterterrorism Issues .

July 9/11: After the USA finds and kills Osama Bin Laden, Pakistans intelligence agency murders a journalist and expels American military trainers. In response, the USA delays and may cancel about $800 million in military aid and equipment, or about 40% of its annual total.

US officials say that the F-16s are unaffected. Instead, the blockage involves about $300 million to reimburse Pakistan for some of the costs of deploying more than 100,000 soldiers along the Afghan border, hundreds of millions of dollars in training assistance and military hardware like rifles, ammunition, body armor and bomb-disposal gear that were part of the expelled training effort, and items like radios, night-vision goggles and helicopter spare parts, where Pakistan has denied visas to the American personnel needed to operate the equipment. Less double-dealing with terrorists would reportedly free up this aid, but Pakistans response is that theyll rely on China to make up the gap. ABC News | CBS News | NY Times .

July 5/11: EW. ITT Systems Corp. in Clifton, NJ receives a not to exceed $49.1 million firm-fixed-price contract for the ALQ-211v9 AIDEW Pod, which was picked as the electronic countermeasures choice for Pakistans new F-16C/D Block 52s, and is also on the list for its upgraded F-16s. This award fits the new fighter order, and includes 18 pods, 4 pod shells, 2 antenna coupler sets, 2 lab test benches, associated data, and systems software and support equipment.

Work will be performed at Clifton, N.J. This contract is a Foreign Military Sales requirement for Pakistan, managed by the WR-ALC/GRWKBat Robins Air Force Base, GA (FA8540-11-C-0012). See also June 26/08 entry.

May 1/11: Osama Bin Laden is killed in a US Navy SEAL raid, which happens without notifying Pakistan. As a result, Osama is actually present in Abbottabad when the SEALs arrive, living comfortably about a mile from Pakistans top military college.

March 1/11: Aviation Week reports that Pakistan is in negotiations with the U.S. to get more Lockheed Martin F-16s over and above the 63 currently in service (18 F-16C/D Block 52, 45 F-16A/B Blocck 15/OCU that will be upgraded). No numbers have been specified, by Pakistani officials see it as part of a dual-track strategy that will also include more spending on domestic projects like the JF-17 Thunder, to improve Pakistans own manufacturing capacity.

At present, PAF Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar Suleman says that 4 F-16A/Bs went to the USA for technical verification inspections and upgrade kit development, and the 1st 3 F-16A/Bs are now undergoing the upgrade at Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI). All of Pakistans F-16s are expected to be upgraded by 2013-2014. At present, no systems exist that would bridge the F-16 and JF-17 fleets, but Air Chief Marshall Suleman says that Pakistan intends to eventually field a supplementary datalink, which would work alongside the Link 16 systems carried by the F-16s.

The comments come as the Pakistani military is also discussing a deal to buy Chinese submarines as a supplement to their French Agosta-class boats, as an intended prelude to joint submarine development. These plans are all being made against a backdrop of a serious domestic insurgency and widespread flooding damage, which have combined to create over 1 million internal refugees , and threaten the governments medium term ability to maintain control of the country. Even as the state is very obviously fraying in other ways .

Jan 20/11: DB-110. Goodrich Corporation of Chelmsford, MA receives a $71.9 million contract for 5 DB-110 Pods, 2 datalink upgrades to existing pods, 2 fixed ground stations, 1 mobile ground station, and 4 ground station datalink receiver kits, plus initial spares, technical manuals, minimal initial engineering support for final in-country installation, integration, testing and a study for a potential fusion center. This supports Pakistani F-16 aircraft. At this time, $17.3 million has been committed by the ASC/WINK at Wright-Patterson Air Force, OH on behalf of their Foreign Military Sale client (FA8620-11-C-3006).

The DB-110 reconnaissance pod offers day and night capabilities, and has been ordered by a number of F-16 customers, including Egypt, Greece, Morocco, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, and the UAE. DB-110s were not mentioned in the DSCA upgrade requests, but they are clearly part of that effort now. Reports indicate that installations began in June 2010 ; this is apparently a follow-on order. A Jan 12/11 US FedBizOpps solicitation for associated imagery analysis training is a useful reminder that buying the pods is not enough to field a useful capability. See also Aviation Week re: DB-110 .

2010
Optional short yearly wrap-up.

Dec 13/10: Delivery. The last batch of 6 F-16 Block 52s arrive a bit early at Shahbaz AB, after a stop over at Lajes Field, Azores. This finishes the 18-plane order. F-16.NET .

Nov 20/10: Delivery. Another 6 new F-16 Block 52s land at the Shahbaz airbase near Jacobabad, in Pakistans Sindh province. That makes 12 so far, and another batch of 6 F-16 C/D Block 52s are expected to arrive in December 2010, to finish the initial 18-plane order. Pakistans DAWN | Associated Press of Pakistan | Daily Times | The Nation | Pak Tribune | IANS .

Oct 30/10: Delivery. Another 3 new F-16 Block 52 aircraft are handed over at an induction ceremony at Shahbaz Air Base near Jacobabad, Pakistan. This is the 2nd batch of new F-16s delivered, and all 18 fighter aircraft are expected to arrive by January 2012.

In addition to the delivery of these new aircraft, the U.S. is working with the PAF to update 45 F-16s from its existing fighter fleet through the U.S. Foreign Military Financing security assistance program. The first batch of updated F-16s is scheduled to arrive in Pakistan in early 2012. US CENTCOM .

July 27/10: Weapons. The Press Trust of India reports that the first AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles have arrived in Pakistan, and will equip the new F-16C/D block 52s. PTI .

June 24/10: Training. The Pentagon announces that it will deliver the first 3 new F-16 Block 52s in Pakistan on June 26/10, with the other 15 arriving during 2010-2011. USAF Maj. Todd Robbins, the the office of the undersecretary of the Air Force for international affairs Pakistan country director, is quoted saying that Pakistan is paying $1.4 billion for the 18 new F-16 Block 52s. Theyre also paying $1.3 billion for upgrades to its existing F-16 fleet, which are to begin delivery in 2012.

The new F-16s will add night, all-weather, and precision-attack capabilities, and Pakistani pilots have been training at Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson, including night-attack training. The PAF recently completed training for 4 instructors and 5 flight leads (q.v. May 5/10 entry). The US Embassy in Islamabad later cited June 27/10 as the day of the formal induction ceremony.

Beyond the F-16s, the USA has provided over $4 billion in assistance over the last 3 years. The USA and Pakistan are working to address the current deficit of trust, which has begun to repair itself since Pakistans government became more serious about fighting al-Qaeda and the Taliban in Pakistan. In March 2010, the United States and Pakistan held their first ministerial-level strategic dialogue in Washington, DC, co-chaired by US Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and Pakistani Foreign Minister Makhdoom Shah Mahmood Qureshi. High-level officials from both governments participated in the dialogue, including Secretary of Defense Gates and Navy Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Follow-up meetings took place in Pakistan in early June 2010.

June 14/10: A report in Indias Samay Live says that Pakistan will face strict monitoring of its new F-16s, and quotes United States Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asia, Robert Blake. Samay Live states that:

Sources said the US Air Force personnel will arrive during the delivery of the F-16s and supervise not only the air base where they will be deployed but also the operations carried out by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) against the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Though the jets will be flown by PAF pilots, the logistics, management and control of the F-16s will be with the US personnel. The [18] Block 50/52 model F-16 jets equipped with latest missiles will arrive at the Shahbaz Airbase in Jacoabad in the last week of June

Readers are cautioned that this description may be an overstatement or misunderstanding of normal support and inspection provisions; without a firm statement from an identifiable individual, its hard to tell.

May 21/10: F-16 MLU. Lockheed Aeronautics in Fort Worth, TX receives a $325.5 million contract to develop, integrate and deliver 53 F-16 upgrade kits: 35 mid-life upgrade kits for Pakistani F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft, and 18 retrofit kits for Pakistani F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft.

At this time, $121.2 million has been committed by the 312th AESG/SYK at Wright-Patterson AFB, OH, who manages these efforts on Pakistans behalf (FA8615-07-C-6032).

May 4/10: Training. Eight Pakistani F-16 A/B pilots graduate from training at Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ, flying US Air National Guard F-16 C/D Block 25s. They are the first Pakistani pilots to train in the United States since 1983. Their training involves 2 1/2 months reviewing military aviation terminology at the Defense Language Institute at Lackland Air Force Base, TX; 7 months of flight training at Tucson International Airport, including a transition course, flight lead upgrade training, and instructor pilot certification; and 2 weeks of additional F-16 Block 52 instruction. The schedule was compressed, and the pilots flew 5 flights per week, instead of the usual 3.

Pakistani air force Wing Commander Ghazanfar Latif cited to the ability to run precision engagements and attack at night as key difference from the F-16 hes been flying for the last 12 years, capabilities that can lower collateral damage. The flip side was cited by Squadron Leader Yasir Malik: the need to manage and prioritize all that additional information from the radar, datalinks, and other sensors, which was a key part of their training. Their instructors in this effort included USAF flight commander Maj. Windy Hendrick, and her compatriots in the 162nd Fighter Wing. USAF .

2008  2009

Nov 16/09: Engines. Pratt & Whitney announces that they have delivered the first F100-PW-229 Engine Enhancement Package (EEP) engine to Pakistan, for installation in their F-16 Block 52 aircraft. The engine program is valued at approximately $150 million, and is scheduled for delivery in 2009 and 2010.

The F100-PW-229 EEP is the latest evolution of the F100 engine family, with features designed to reduce scheduled engine maintenance by up to 30%, by extending the depot inspection interval from 4300  6000 TACs.

Oct 13/09: Unveiling. Lockheed Martin unveils the first of 18 new PAF F-16s in ceremonies at its Fort Worth, TX facility. Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Chief of Staff Air Chief Marshal Rao Quamar Suleman accepted the F-16D Block 52 aircraft on behalf of his nation, as the first delivery of the Peace Drive I order. It will be delivered to the US government for transfer in December 2009, with the remainder of the order following in 2010. See also Flight International , which has video.

July 29/08: Pakistans request to transfer 2/3 of its anti-terrorism aid to fund its F-16 program meets strong resistance from the US Congress.

June 28/08: Used F-16s. In a ceremony at Mushaf Air Base in Pakistan, Acting Commander of US Central Command, Lt. Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, hands over 4 excess defense article F-16 fighter from the USAF to Pakistan Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed. The US DSCA release says that:

F-16s continue to hold a special place in the U.S.  *****stani security relationship. The four EDA aircraft are part of a larger package of 14 aircraft. With the most recent delivery, the USAF has transferred eight aircraft to Pakistan. Another four EDA F-16 aircraft are scheduled to arrive in Pakistan on 28 July 2008. The final two aircraft are part of the Pakistan Mid-Life Update program and will arrive in Pakistan in De*cember 2011. The entire F-16 program for Pakistan includes the purchase of eighteen F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft, MLU for 46 aircraft, and a munitions package that includes AM*RAAM, JDAM, and Enhanced Paveway guidance kits.

June 26/08: EW. The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency announces [PDF format] Pakistans official request for 21 AN/ALQ-211v9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) Pods, plus software support, repair and return, spare and repair parts, support equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related elements of program support. The estimated cost is $75 million.

The ALQ-211 based Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System (AIDEWS ) integrates digital radar warning receivers and advanced jamming countermeasures systems against radar-based threats, including modern surface-to-air and air-to-air weapon systems. It can be carried on a pod, as Pakistan is doing, or internally as the AN/ALQ-211v4. Pakistan intends to purchase the AIDEWS pods to enhance its existing F-16 fighter aircraft, and create fleet commonality with its new F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft. See also our March 19/08 entry; the original DSCA bulletin for mid-life upgrades had mentioned AN/ ALQ-131 or AN/ALQ-148 pods instead.

The principal contractor will be ITT Corporation of Clifton, NJ. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and ITT representatives for technical reviews, support, and program management over a period of up to 15 years.

June 4/08: Delivery. The Associated Press of Pakistan reports that Pakistan has already received 2 refurbished F-16s, and is due to receive 4 more in June and another 4 in July, bringing the total to 10.

April 18/08: F-16s. Lockheed Martin Aeronautics of Fort Worth, TX received a modified contract for $31.5 million, covering one-time engineering activity for aircraft production program changes for the Peace Drive I (Pakistan) program for foreign military sales F-16 Block 52M aircraft. At this time $15.75 million has been obligated. Wright-Patterson AFB, OH issued the contract (FA8615-07-C-6031, P00005).

April 18/08: F-16s. Lockheed Martin Aeronautics of Fort Worth, TX received a modified firm fixed price contract for $27 million, covering one-time engineering activity for developmental support equipment and country standard technical order for the Peace Drive I (Pakistan) Program for foreign military sales F-16 Block 52M aircraft. At this time $13.5 million has been obligated. Wright-Patterson AFB, OH issued the contract (FA8615-07-C-6031, P00004).

March 19/08: EW. ITT Avionics of Clifton, NJ received a modified firm fixed price contract for $78.2 million for Foreign Military Sales of the ALQ-211v4 Advanced Integrated Defense Electronics Warfare system to the country of Pakistan, for use on the F-16 aircraft being procured under separate acquisition by the F-16 program office. The contract also includes associated spares, support equipment, training, engineering services, and flight test support and data, and $39 million has been obligated so far. Robins AFB, GA issued the contracts (FA8523-07-C-0008-PZ0001).

The DefenseLINK announcement was wrong in several respects. It has been corrected above, and Robins AFBs PA office offers further background, which connects it to the overlapping March 30/07 announcement:

Contract FA8523-07-C-0008 was awarded in March 2007 to ITT in Clifton NJ. The obligated funds on the initial contract was $39 mil. The contract was modified in March 2008 to add the additional funds Of $39.2 mil and to definitize all outstanding contract requirements. This was not a new award, the contract was awarded in March 2007.

2006  2007

Dec 31/07: F-16s. Lockheed Martin Aeronautics of Fort Worth, TX received a firm-fixed-price contract modification for $498.2 million, covering Foreign Military Sales of 12 new F-16C Block 52 and 6 new 2-seat F-16D Block 52 new aircraft to Pakistan. At this time, $497.6 million has been obligated. Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, OH issued the contract (FA8615-07-C-6031-P0002).

Dec 14/07: Weapons. Raytheon Missile Systems of Tucson, AZ received a firm fixed price contract for $161.3 million. This action provides 300 miscellaneous unit air foil groups, 300 miscellaneous armament unit enhanced computer control groups, 1,298 weapon guidance unit computer control groups, 1,300 stabilizing and retarding unit air foil groups, 600 global positioning system adapter kits, 1 lot enhanced Paveway III and test equipment spares, 1 lot enhanced Paveway II, 700 certain adapter groups, 6 readiness test set, 6 bomb tool kits, 3 lots of enhanced Paveway tool sets, 3 each common munitions bit/reprogramming equipment adapter kits, 1 each mission planning software, 1 lot DATA. This effort supports foreign military sales to Pakistan. At this time $75.7 million has been obligated. The 784th Combat Sustainment Group (AFMC) at Hill Air Force Base, UT issued the contract (FA8213-08-C-0028).

Enhanced Paveways use a combination of laser and GPS/INS guidance. The laser designator offers better accuracy, and is compatible with targeting pods like Pakistans forthcoming Sniper ATPs. GPS/INS benefits include the ability to function through fog, dust storms, clouds, smoke, or other obscurants, and can be employed in the absence of a laser designator as long as Global Positioning System coordinates are available for the target.

April 27/07: Sniper ATP. Pakistan orders 22 of Lockheed Martins AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods under a $54.6 million firm-fixed-price contract. Since Raytheons ATFLIR is only integrated with F/A-18s, and Northrop Grummans LITENING AT is a joint development with Israels RAFAEL, the choice is not surprising. Sniper pods have also been referred to as PANTERA pods in the past. See Pakistan Joins List of Sniper ATP Customers for more.

March 30/07: EW. ITT Avionics in Clifton, NJ received a $78 million firm-fixed-price and time and materials contract for Foreign Military Sales of the AN/ALQ-173 (V) advanced integrated defense electronics warfare to the country of Pakistan. Associated spares, support equipment, training, engineering services, flight test support and data are also being acquired. Solicitations began February 2007, negotiations were complete March 2007, and work will be complete January 2010. The Headquarters Warner Robins Air Logistics Center at Robins Air Force Base, GA issued the contract (FA8523-07-C-0008).

Oddly enough, the AN/ALQ-173 was not among the many internal ECM alternatives listed in the official US DSCA announcement.

Dec 5/06: F-16s. Lockheed Martin Corp. in Fort Worth, TX received a $144 million firm-fixed-price and time and materials contract for 12 operational single place F-16C Block 52 aircraft and 6 operational two place F-16D Block 52+ aircraft. This will begin readying materials to manufacture the aircraft, and $78.4 million has been obligated at this time. Aircraft purchases will be accomplished under the firm-fixed price portion of the contract, and work will be complete by November 2010. The Headquarters Aeronautical Systems Center at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, OH issued the contract (FA8615-07-C-6031).

Nov 17/06: Weapons. Raytheon Missile Systems in Tucson, AZ received a $269.6 million firm-fixed-price contract modification, exercising an option to purchase 500 AIM-120C5 AMRAAM missiles and rehost on behalf of Pakistan (100%). Work will be complete April 2011. The Headquarters Medium Range Missile System Group at Eglin Air Force Base, FL issued the contract (FA8675-05-C-0070/P00028).

Nov 15/06: Radars. Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems in Linthicum Heights, MD received half of a $99.5 million firm-fixed-price contract for government furnished property for the Government of Pakistan under the F-16 Block 50/52 new aircraft and modernization program. The procurement of 54 AN/APG-68 (V)9 Radar Systems will be accomplished under the firm-fixed-price portion of the contract. A January 10, 2007 Northrop Grumman release clarifies: this order is for 52 systems (18 new + 34 upgrade kits), with a 44 radar option to follow (18 new + 26 upgrade kits).

Oct 2/06: LoA. India Defence reports that Pakistan and USA have signed a letter of acceptance for these deals, following a Sept 30/06 ceremony in Rawalpindi were Pakistans military is headquartered. It said that the United States will supply 18 new F-16 aircraft, as well as an unspecified number of upgraded second-hand F-16s. Previous reports have said the number of second hand aircraft Pakistan was considering buying was 36, which would make for 18 of each.

India Defence adds that Both sides had expected to wrap up the deal a month earlier, but negotiations dragged on because of strings Washington wanted attached. The USA has clear concerns regarding technology transfer from the F-16s or associated weapons it sells to 3rd countries like China, which has close military ties with Pakistan. While the US was reluctant to discuss details, Assistant Secretary of State for political-military affairs John Hillen was more open with Congress on July 20/06.

In his testimony to the House of Representatives International Relations Committee, Hillen reportedly said that the United States was withholding unspecified technologies that would usually go with an F-16, including ones that would let it be used in offensive ways to penetrate air space of another country that was highly defended. It added that Pakistans F-16 fleet and its munitions would be segregated from aircraft supplied by other countries, so that unauthorized engineers could not get access to the U.S.-made planes, and that U.S. personnel would carry out inventories of the F-16s and their associated systems every 6 months. There had even been a proposal that F-16 flights outside Pakistani air space, including for exercises with other countries, would have to be approved by the U.S. government in advance. It is not clear whether this requirement ever got beyond the proposal stage.

As part of the deal, the USA also agreed to deliver 26 of the Peace Gate III/IV F-16A/B Block 15OCUs that had been ordered in 1988-1989, then embargoed when Pakistan tested nuclear weapons. The planes had been diverted for use as aggressor combat training aircraft by USAF and the US Navy. Source .

July 20/06: Heres the first concerned speech from an opposed Congressman: Eliot Engel [D-NY], citing Pakistans support for terrorism in India . Mr Engel is a senior member of the House International Relations Committee, and was one of the first Members of Congress to come out in favor of the proposed India-US nuclear energy deal. Hell be making his views public at the July 20, 2006 House International Relations Committee hearing on the Pakistan sales  and that meeting will tell us if opposition to the deal has real traction.

Potential Controversies: July 2006

ISAF, S. Afghanistan
(click to view full)
The DSCA has said that Release of this system would not significantly reduce Indias quantitative or qualitative military advantage. India disagrees , and military experts in Delhi will likely note that the same equipment (GPS, targeting pods, bunker-busters) that could potentially find uses against al-Qaeda terrorists in Pakistans lawless frontier could also be used in precision strikes on Indias military facilities in the event of war.

The DSCA counters that release of the F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft to Pakistan will neither affect the regional balance of power nor introduce a new technology as this level of capability or higher already exists in other countries in the region. India does operate more advanced SU-30MKI aircraft with R-77 AMRAAMski missiles, advanced avionics, et. al.; these are superior in range, armament, and maneuverability to Pakistans F-16s, and will remain so. Meanwhile, Indias $7-10 billion MRCA competition is certain to introduce 125-200 aircraft that are certain to be more advanced than the F-16 Block 50/52.

The US DSCA adds in its submission to Congress that The modification of the engines and Falcon UP/STAR structural updates will provide capable F-16&#8242;s that can be used for close air support in ongoing operations contributing to the GWOT (Global War On Terror). The DSCA also cites the June 2004 designation of Pakistan as a Major Non-North Atlantic Treaty Organization Ally in its submission. The British commander of NATOs ISAF force in Southern Afghanistan sees Pakistans role in a rather different light, however; he recently noted that al-Qaeda in Afghanistan is still run out of Pakistan (specifically Quetta), with Pakistani knowledge and even support from Islamist elements in its security apparatus. Ah, the dynamics of counter-insurgency in tribal societies . Pakistan angrily denies this, of course.

Indias objections to this sale have been muted thus far, and phrased carefully to emphasize their effect on India-Pakistan ties rather than India-US ties. Meanwhile, President Bushs personal diplomacy approach has fostered a strong relationship with Gen. Musharraf that is inclined to view such requests favorably as part of the USAs 3-corner balancing act in the region. Barring unusual circumstances, therefore, its reasonable to expect this sale to go through with little more than a concerned speech or two in Congress.

December 2007 Update
The sale did go through with little more than concerned speeches in Congress, though there have been ongoing efforts to pressure the Pakistani government via threats of delayed or canceled weapon sales, due in large part to the security situation across the de facto line of government/ al-Qaeda control in western Pakistan.

The Benazir Bhutto assassination, and the strong likelihood that the Bhuttos PPP party will ascend to power following the coming Pakistani election, is also likely to remove some of the pressure the US Congress has been placing on Pakistan. In the short term, a delay in the elections could result in symbolic weapons sales delays until elections are held, while construction of the F-16s et. al. continues for delivery after that date anyway. Once those elections are held, a combination of sympathy and diplomatic imperatives are likely to mute further resistance to weapons sales in the US Congress.

It remains less clear whether Asif Ali Zardari Mr. 10% Bhuttos ascension to power will successfully address that countrys ongoing civil war  and what that will mean in a year or two, when the jets are due to be delivered.

Additional Readings

Pakistan Air Force . Official web site.
Wikipedia  Pakistan Air Force . Very good reference.
Absolute Astronomy  F-16 Fighting Falcon . The best source for distinguishing the F-16&#8242;s wide array of variants, and what that means for the aircrafts capabilities.
F-16.NET  Pakistan Fizaya/ Pakistan Air Force  PAF 
DID  Pakistan & Chinas JF-17 Fighter Program. The F-16&#8242;s counterpart in the future PAF, which will also include the more advanced Chinese J-10B/JF-20.
DID  US GAO Criticizes [US] CSF Aid to Pakistan
US House Committee on Foreign Affairs, Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee (July 26/11)  The Enemy of Hegemony is My Friend: Pakistans de facto Alliance with China [PDF]. By China Business Intelligence President John J. Tkacik, at hearings on Reassessing American Grand Strategy in South Asia. See also HTML version .
GAO (July 19/11, #GAO-11-786R)  Pakistan Assistance: Relatively Little of the $3 Billion in Requested Assistance is Subject to States Certification of Pakistans Progress on Nonproliferation and Counterterrorism Issues 
Real Clear World (June 20/11)  Why the U.S. Still Needs Pakistan . By STRATFOR CEO George Friedman.

$5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistans F-16s

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## fatman17

^^ last hope - how many times this is going to be posted???


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## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> ^^ last hope - how many times this is going to be posted???



Sorry, post removed. This was something new to me.

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## Windjammer

*The unrestricted view from F-16's one piece bubble canopy.*

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## Last Hope

Nothing to do with actual F-16s, though good job.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=322708684517831


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## gambit

Windjammer said:


> *The unrestricted view from F-16's one piece bubble canopy.*


I will miss such 'til the day I die. The seat's incline make turning to the rear awkward but there is no need to do so anyway. Even in level flight, the leading edge (LE) flaps are always visibly in motion up/down ever so slightly. Hit some turbulence and see the entire wing shake. You would think the -9 would fall of its rack.  This is not the same thing as sitting in a cabin style cockpit or flight deck of a cargo aircraft. The best word to describe the view from an airborne -16 is: Magnificent.

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## Windjammer

gambit said:


> I will miss such 'til the day I die. The seat's incline make turning to the rear awkward but there is no need to do so anyway. Even in level flight, the leading edge (LE) flaps are always visibly in motion up/down ever so slightly.* Hit some turbulence and see the entire wing shake. *You would think the -9 would fall of its rack.  This is not the same thing as sitting in a cabin style cockpit or flight deck of a cargo aircraft. The best word to describe the view from an airborne -16 is: Magnificent.



One can only imagine on the bold experience for whenever i'm travelling in a 747, seeing that wing stretching out to the horizon while supporting two truck size engines, which are rotating at mind boggling speed, i often wonder what's keeping the wings afloat and attached to the body. !!

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## gambit

Windjammer said:


> One can only imagine on the bold experience for whenever i'm travelling in a 747, seeing that wing stretching out to the horizon while supporting two truck size engines, which are rotating at mind boggling speed, i often wonder what's keeping the wings afloat and attached to the body. !!


For me, there are two things in life that I will always have a child-like wonder about: An aircraft and a motorcycle.

No matter what I understand about Bernouli, it is always easy to look at an aircraft on the take off roll, abandon all the technical mumbo-jumbo, and amaze that such a mass of metal can detach itself from the Earth. For the truly amazing, one should see a C-5 Galaxy take off from an end-of-runway view and I mean inside the fence, just right at the runway's edge. Cannot help but believe that man can do anything the moment one see the main gear leave the ground.

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## Jango

gambit said:


> For me, there are two things in life that I will always have a child-like wonder about: An aircraft and a motorcycle.
> 
> No matter what I understand about Bernouli, it is always easy to look at an aircraft on the take off roll, abandon all the technical mumbo-jumbo, and amaze that such a mass of metal can detach itself from the Earth. For the truly amazing, one should see a C-5 Galaxy take off from an end-of-runway view and I mean inside the fence, just right at the runway's edge. Cannot help but believe that man can do anything the moment one see the main gear leave the ground.



You seen that video of the C-17 that landed at the wrong airport?

The distance that C-17 took off was mind boggling, also the landing...the sudden change the pilot had to to with his braking calculations etc.

And much bigger thing than a C-5 is the big daddy of all, the An-225. The way those wings are dropping early on, then they get straight and voila, the plane is in the air.



Windjammer said:


> One can only imagine on the bold experience for whenever i'm travelling in a 747, seeing that wing stretching out to the horizon while supporting two truck size engines, which are rotating at mind boggling speed, i often wonder what's keeping the wings afloat and attached to the body. !!








B-787 wing flex test, it's wings can move up and down an incredible 25 feet.


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## razgriz19

Windjammer said:


> One can only imagine on the bold experience for whenever i'm travelling in a 747, seeing that wing stretching out to the horizon while supporting two truck size engines, which are rotating at mind boggling speed, i often wonder what's keeping the wings afloat and attached to the body. !!



Actually If the wing does not carry that much weight then it WILL definitely rip apart.
This is why the engineers decided to use the wing as a fuel tank so it can counteract the force created by "lift".


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## Viper0011.

Windjammer said:


> *The unrestricted view from F-16's one piece bubble canopy.*



Good old view of the shaky wing with -9 on it!!! I personally like to see an Amraam vs. -9. It's amazing to know that you can still fly Mach 1+ with the max amount of fuel you can carry and the armament... specially during turbulence when the wing feels as if it was made out of paper!!


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## Windjammer

orangzaib said:


> Good old view of the shaky wing with -9 on it!!! I personally like to see an Amraam vs. -9. It's amazing to know that you can still fly Mach 1+ with the max amount of fuel you can carry and the armament... specially during turbulence when the wing feels as if it was made out of paper!!


Which makes it all the more amazing as how much load those wings can carry.

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## Donatello

What is the Maximum G rating for the F-16s under full external load configurations?


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## Windjammer

Donatello said:


> What is the Maximum G rating for the F-16s under full external load configurations?



I did read something to the effect that even with a Max load, the F-16 can sustain 6 G turns. ??


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## fatman17

Pakistan obtained a total of 40 Block 15 F-16A/Bs, including 28 F-16As and 12 F-16Bs, with initial deliveries in 1983 under the "Peace Gate" program. Pakistan's F-16s saw a surprising amount of air combat during the Soviet war in neighboring Afghanistan during the 1980s. Soviet aircraft would often follow Afghan Mujahedin fighters fleeing over the border into Pakistan, and the Pakistanis would take them on. Pakistani F-16s claimed about a dozen kills. Apparently they also lost an F-16 to another F-16 in a "friendly fire" incident while in pursuit of an intruder. This may have been the first and possibly the only Viper to be lost in air combat. 

In the early 1990s Pakistan was to receive 28 more Block 15 OCU F-16A/Bs, including 13 F-16As and 15 F-16Bs, but the order was frozen in response to American worries about the Pakistani nuclear program. The 28 aircraft were mothballed in the "boneyard" at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base in Arizona. They were pulled out of storage in early 2003, with 13 of them provided to the USAF as test and evaluation machines, one of them transferred to the US Air National Guard, and the remaining 14 transferred to the US Navy for use as aggressor aircraft. 

The Block 15 F-16A/B featured more significant changes, implemented as part of a "Multinational Staged Improvement Program (MSIP)". Block 15 was the first phase of the MSIP effort, and was also referred to as "MSIP I". The major visible change was a new horizontal tailplane that featured a rear extension that gave it 30% more area. The new "big tail" improved stability, and permitted faster takeoff rotation and flight at higher angles of attack. Other changes included improvements to the AN/APG-66 radar, installation of a new "Have Quick" secure radio, and a modified cockpit instrument layout. 

At the end of Block 15 production an "Operational Capability Upgrade (OCU)" was introduced that featured the improved P&W F100-PW-220 engine, which corrected many of the reliability problems that had affected the F100 and featured a "digital electronic engine control (DEEC)"; a bigger "head-up display (HUD)" built by Marconi in the UK; support for the AN/ALQ-131 jammer pod; a ring-laser gyro inertial navigation system; some structural reinforcement; and wiring to support future avionics updates and the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range AAM (AMRAAM), then in development. Production moved to the Block 15 OCU F-16 in 1988. Most earlier aircraft in service were updated to the same specification. 

In the early 1990s, a "Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU)" program was begun to upgrade F-16A/Bs to modern Viper standards. The Block 15MLU upgrade featured: 

A new wide-angle HUD. 
Support for the AIM-120 AMRAAM and provision for inlet-mounted targeting pods. 
A Global Position System / Inertial Navigation System (GPS / INS) navigation system, with a "Digital Terrain System" ground-following capability. 
An improved modular mission computer that replaced several older computers. 
Improved AN/APG-66(V2) radar. 
A night-vision-goggle (NVG) compatible cockpit with multifunction displays (MFDs). 
An "integrated data modem (IDM)" and an improved IFF system.

The Air Force was not entirely happy with the weight growth and performance decline of the Block 40/42, and so the next sub variant, the "Block 50/52", was not optimized for the night attack role and featured new, more powerful, GE and P&W "Improved Performance Engines (IPE)". 

The Block 50 is fitted with the GE F110-GE-129 IPE and the Block 52 is fitted with the P&W F100-PW-220 IPE. Both engine variants have 129 kN (13,150 kgp / 29,000 lbf) afterburning thrust, 20% more than the original-fit F100-PW-220 turbofan, and are much more powerful in low-level flight than previous models. With the IPE variant the F100 finally caught up to F110 performance, a lesson in the virtues of competition not lost on the Air Force. 

Some early production Block 52 machines were temporarily retrofitted with the older F110-PW-220 due to bugs in the new engine variant. The F100-PW-229 IPE features a distinctive gloss-black exhaust not used in the GE F110 or earlier P&W F100 variants. Some Block 40/42s have been refitted with IPE engines. 

The Block 50/52 also features AN/APG-68(V)3 radar with improved reliability and signal processing capabilities plus more modes; a new, lighter, cheaper HUD; and an "Improved Data Modem" data link. The new block includes the digital flight capability and features the HUD of the Block 30/32, but includes the digital flight control system, reinforced airframe, and stronger landing gear of the Block 40/42. 

Initial flight of an F110-powered Block 50 F-16C was on 22 October 1991, with first flight of a Block 52 F-16D following on 1 April 1992. First flight of an F100-powered Block 52 F-16C was on 22 October 1992, with first flight of a Block 52 F-16D on 24 November 1992. 

* Nothing was changed on the Block 50/52 to rule out carriage of LANTIRN, but as far as the USAF is concerned that's a job for the Block 40/42. Some Block 50/52 machines are capable of carrying the Texas Instruments "AN/ASQ-213 HARM Targeting System (HTS)" to give them a "suppression of enemy air defenses (SEAD)" capability. The HTS is a small pod that is carried on the right side of the engine inlet and allows a Viper to detect, identify, and target adversary radar and other emitters for attack with the aircraft's AGM-88 "High-Speed ARM (HARM)" missiles. 

"Wild Weasel" defense suppression aircraft have traditionally been two-seat machines, such as the the McDonnell Douglas F-4G Wild Weasel Phantom the Block 50/52 with HTS replaced, and some critics claim the single-seat F-16C with HTS is an inadequate replacement. Defenders counter that improved data processing and software has allowed a single-seat aircraft to perform the mission perfectly well. 


[1.2] F-16A & F-16B DESCRIBED
* The F-16A that emerged from this development process is a neat, sleek, dart like aircraft with swept wings; a degree of wing-body blending; a conventional tail assembly, with all-moving horizontal tail planes; and twin ventral fins. The wing-body blending allows the aircraft's body to provide lift. The wing has a leading-edge sweep of 40 degrees and a straight trailing edge, with full-span leading-edge flaps and large "flaperons" on the trailing edge to provide improved landing performance and combat maneuverability. Airbrakes are fitted between the horizontal tail plane and the engine exhaust, with the airbrakes opening top and bottom. 

The F-16A's appearance is very similar to that of the YF-16 prototypes, but there are clear differences. The YF-16 was about 30 centimeters (a foot) shorter, with a smaller nose as the original plan wasn't to fit a sophisticated radar; had a slightly shorter tailfin, smaller ventral fins, slightly smaller wings and fuel tankage, and a more complicated nose wheel door arrangement; and, lacking operational kit, weighed only about 75% as much. 

The F-16A is of conventional construction, with about 80% of the airframe built with aircraft aluminum alloys, 8% with steel, 3% with composites, and 1.5% with titanium. There are 228 access panels over the entire aircraft, simplifying maintenance. About 80% of the aircraft can be reached without work stands, and the number of lubrication points, fuel-line connections, and replaceable modules has been greatly reduced compared to fighters of an earlier generation. 

The F-16A was originally powered by a single P&W F100-PW-200 afterburning turbofan engine with 65.2 kN (6,655 kgp / 14,670 lbf) maximum dry thrust and 106 kN (10,810 kgp / 23,830 lbf) afterburning thrust. It was a modified version of the F100-PW-100 developed for the twin-engine F-15, adapted for single-engine operation with such features as a redundant fuel system to improve reliability. The kidney-shaped engine intake is fitted on the belly of the aircraft below the cockpit. The positioning of the intake permits adequate airflow at high angles of attack. The inlet geometry is fixed, not variable. 

The F-16A's fuel capacity is surprisingly large for the aircraft's size and configuration, 31% of its fully-loaded weight, and gives the aircraft correspondingly long range. The large fuel capacity is one of the benefits of the wing-body blending, which along with aerodynamic efficiency provides additional volume that can be used for fuel tanks. There is a boom refueling socket in the center of the back, normally marked by a white "fishbone" pattern to guide a tanker boom operator. It does not appear that any production F-16s have ever been fitted with refueling probe for probe-and-drogue refueling. 

The F-16A has tricycle landing gear, all with single wheels, the front gear retracting backward underneath the intake and the main gear retracting forward into the fuselage. The position of the nose gear behind the intake helps reduce the chance of foreign-object ingestion, a potential problem given the size and position of the intake. A distinctive drag-parachute compartment can be fitted behind the rear of the base of the tailfin, though the USAF and most other users have not specified this item. There is also a runway arresting hook under the tail behind the ventral fins. It is unclear if the arresting hook is a standard feature. 

The pilot sits under a single-piece polycarbonate bubble canopy on a McDonnell Douglas "Advanced Concept Ejection Seat (ACES) II" "zero-zero" (zero speed, zero altitude) ejection seat. The rocket-boosted ACES II ejection seat, designed for the F-15 Eagle, is reclined 30 degrees and the pilot's legs are raised, helping to help deal with high-gee maneuvers. However it appears that the specific reason for slanting the seat in such a way was to allow it to fit in the slender nose of the aircraft and the gee-resistance is just an unintended benefit. Incidentally, the two YF-16s used Escapac ejection seats, while the FSD F-16s used Stencel SIIIS ejection seats. 

The canopy is hardened against bird strikes and provides an outstanding all-round view. The pilot holds a throttle in the left hand and a side stick controller in the other, both studded with "hands on throttle and stick (HOTAS)" controls. The side stick controller was originally pressure-sensitive, not moveable like a joystick, but would later be modified to provide a slight "give" for pilot feedback. 

GENERAL DYNAMICS F-16A:

spec metric english

wing span with AAMs 10.0 meters 32 feet 10 inches
length 15.03 meters 49 feet 4 inches
height 5.09 meters 16 feet 8 inches

empty weight 8,275 kilograms 18,220 pounds
MTO weight 19,185 kilograms 42,300 pounds

max speed 2,125 KPH 1,320 MPH / 1,145 KT 
service ceiling 15,250 meters 50,000 feet
combat radius 925 KM 575 MI / 500 NMI


The aircraft features a quadruplex (quadruple redundant) analog-electronic FBW flight control system. An FBW system is required because the F-16A is designed for "relaxed stability" or "dynamic instability", meaning it doesn't tend to fly right if left to itself. This provides increased maneuverability, but also dictates an automatic flight-control system to keep the aircraft flying right. The FBW system features built-in limiters to prevent stalls, with override capability for the pitch control if the pilot wants it. 

The F-16 is one of the first relaxed-stability fighters to be put into production. The FBW system led pilots to call the F-16 the "Electric Jet", but it appears that this nickname has fallen out of use as FBW systems have become more common. 
Avionics for the F-16A include defensive countermeasures, UHF & VHF radios, identification friend or foe (IFF) unit, TACAN beacon navigation set, ILS landing set, and multimode radar. The backbone of the countermeasures system is the Itek AN/ALR-69 radar warning receiver (RWR), featuring antennas on the top and bottom of the rear of the tailfin, on each side of the nose, and under the engine intake. Warning is provided on cockpit displays and the pilot's headphones. Elements of the countermeasures suite vary from user to user, but jamming pods can be carried on a centerline stores pylon. 

Although the LWF competition was for a simple, clear-weather air-superiority fighter, of course the Air Force decided after selecting the F-16 for production that they wanted more capability, beginning a process of "mission creep" that continues with the F-16 to this day. It is a tribute to the fundamental soundness of the design that it has been able to take on such an increasing load of missions. 

In any case, instead of being a simple daylight air-combat fighter, the F-16A as built is basically an all-weather fighter-bomber. Although the YF-16 was built with the idea that it would have very simple radar for air combat, resulting in the small nose, the F-16A features a relatively sophisticated Westinghouse AN/APG-66 multimode radar providing "eyes" for both air combat and ground-attack in night or bad weather. 

The AN/APG-66 is a medium-pulse-rate Doppler radar with a flat slotted antenna. The radar was designed to be compact enough to fit into the F-16's relatively small nose. It provides four operating modes for air-to-air combat and seven for air-to-ground combat, with a "videogame"-like digital display that provides text and symbology to make the radar easier to use. 

Surprisingly, the AN/APG-66 did not provide guidance capability for the AIM-7 Sparrow medium-range semi active radar homing (SARH) AAM. This omission had its roots in the original concept of the F-16 as a simple, cheap fighter. It would later be seen to be a serious error in judgment, as it meant that in principle the F-16 could be picked out of the sky with impunity by an adversary fighter carrying medium-range missiles. 

Although there had been a tendency to delete gun armament in the previous generation of jet fighters such as the Phantom, this had been recognized as a blunder, and the F-16A has built-in armament consisting of a single General Electric six-barreled Gatling-type 20 millimeter M61A1 cannon, with 500 rounds of ammunition. The gun fires out a port on top of the left wing root extension, just behind the pilot's seat, with the ammunition drum behind the cockpit. The position of the cannon muzzle prevents gun gas ingestion into the air intake and avoids blinding the pilot with muzzle flash. 

The F-16A has a single centerline stores pylon, three stores pylons on each wing, and wingtip launch rails for Sidewinder air to air missiles (AAMs), for a total of nine stores pylons. Maximum external load is 9,275 kilograms (20,450 pounds). 

The two-seat F-16B has exactly the same dimensions as the single-seat F-16A, with the second seat in the F-16B obtained by removing a fuselage fuel tank, reducing internal fuel capacity by 17%. The F-16B was intended as a conversion trainer and has dual controls. Both variants are produced on the same production lines. The F-16B is fully combat-capable, allowing it to be used both for training and for operational missions where the workload requires two air crew. About one F-16B was acquired for every six F-16As. 

* The P&W F100 turbofan was an impressive engine but it was not perfect. The latest generation of American fighters like the F-16 had unprecedented high-speed maneuverability, and as high-speed maneuvers required some skillful juggling of the throttle, this placed an entirely unexpected level of stress on the engines of these fighters, reducing their lifetimes. The problem was known as "low cycle fatigue". 

The F100 also suffered from a tendency to stall under some conditions, and in certain cases this could lead to a condition where fuel pooled up in the afterburner, ignited in an explosion, pooled up again, exploded again, and so on at a rate of several times a second. It would all but shake the pilot's teeth out. 

To keep Pratt & Whitney honest, the military worked with General Electric to develop an alternate engine, based on the GE F101 afterburning turbofan used on the Rockwell B-1 bomber. The first FSD F-16A was refitted with the GE F101 and performed its initial flight on 19 December 1980. The only visible distinction between the "F-16/101", as it was called, and a stock F-16 was that the sides of the engine exhaust were noticeably curved, not straight as they were for the P&W F100 engine. 

The F-16/101 made 58 test flights to July 1981. The GE power plant was not adopted for the time being, but the wheels had been set in motion that would eventually see a GE engine fitted to the F-16. 

* The Air Force's enthusiasm for the F-16 grew in time. It was a very hot machine, one of the first operational aircraft that could subject a pilot to more gees than the airframe could handle. The Viper's thrust-to-weight ratio allowed it to accelerate while climbing straight up. One pilot commented: "I can take off and climb straight to 10,000 feet without crossing the fence around the airport." 

The high seat and frameless canopy give an F-16 pilot an outstanding view. Pilots quickly became confident in its capability for air-to-air combat and its ground attack capabilities. The lack of a medium-range AAM was troublesome, though that problem was eventually fixed. Some pilots were a little insecure about the single-engine configuration, though it hasn't led to real trouble in terms of loss rates, and the F-16 tends to be somewhat troublesome to land. Like many aircraft that are designed to be very aerodynamically efficient it tends to want to stay in the air and may dance around a bit on its wheels when it first makes contact with the runway. 

[2.7] F-16 EXTERNAL STORES
* The F-16's most characteristic weapon is the AIM-9 Sidewinder AAM, usually carried on the wingtip launch rails. Most US machines carry the AIM-9L/M all-aspect variants, but some foreign users have had to settle for the slightly less sophisticated AIM-9P-4 variant. 

Along with the Sidewinder, Vipers have also carried the medium-range AIM-7M Sparrow, though only a few nations acquired this weapon for the F-16, as well as the Sparrow's follow-on, the AIM-120 AMRAAM. A few nations have qualified AAMs from other nations, such as the Israeli Rafael Python or French Matra Magic series of heat seeking AAMs, in the same class as the Sidewinder. 

The F-16 has been qualified with the new US AIM-9X AAM, as well as the comparable British "Advanced Short Range AAM (ASRAAM)". Both of these are "off-bore sight" AAMs, meaning they don't have to be pointed directly at the target before launch. They are instead "cued" to the target by a pilot's helmet-mounted sight, and a "Joint Helmet-Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS)" has been developed for the F-16. There are rumors that some foreign F-16s have been qualified for the new medium-range Matra MICA AAM. 

* As discussed earlier, although the F-16 was initially designed as a lightweight air combat fighter, it was originally tasked in USAF service as a strike aircraft, and accordingly qualified for standard iron bombs and cluster munitions. It is certainly possible for an F-16 to carry other "dumb" munitions such as napalm tanks and 70 millimeter (2.75 inch) unguided rocket pods, but these seem to be relatively unusual stores. US Vipers are known to carry Durandal runway-buster bombs. 

The world's air forces have been migrating towards smart weapons, however, and US F-16s generally carry guided weapons, particularly laser-guided bombs (LGBs) or AGM-65 Maverick guided missiles, with the LGBs guided by LANTIRN pods. Other targeting pods are in use by some foreign air forces, such as the Thales (previously Thomson-CSF) "Atlis II" pod, and the Israeli Rafael "Litening" pod. A variant of the Litening pod is even used by some USANG Vipers. The Air Force has committed to the new Lockheed Martin "Sniper" pod to replace LANTIRN. 

Interestingly, LGB targeting pods seem to be often carried by single-seat Vipers, though flying an airplane in the face of enemy defenses while trying to keep crosshairs on a target sounds a bit tricky. F-16s have carried electro-optic guided bombs (EOGBs) such as the GBU-15 glide bomb, which requires carriage of an AN/AXQ-14 data link pod. It appears that EOGBs are usually carried by two-seat Vipers. 

Block 50/52 machines with the HARM Targeting System also carry the AGM-88 HARM, and the Block 50/52 has been qualified to carry the AGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missile. Foreign users also carry their own stores. For example, Norwegian F-16s carry the Penguin Mark 3 anti-ship missile and Israeli Vipers have carried the big Rafael "Popeye" electro-optic guided standoff missile. 

F-16s have now or are being qualified to use the latest generation of US guided weapons, including the "Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM}" GPS-guided bomb; the "Joint Stand-Off Weapon (JSOW)" glide bomb; the "Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD)" inertial-guided cluster bomb; and the "Joint Air to Surface Standoff Missile (JASSM)" cruise missile. 

The US military has improved battlefield networking technology to improve the Viper's attack capability. One scheme, named "Sure Strike" that was introduced in 1996, allows a ground spotter team to pinpoint a target and relay its coordinates to a Viper over the aircraft's data link, with the target marked out on the fighter's HUD. A newer scheme, known as "Gold Strike", also allows target imagery to be sent to a Viper from a reconnaissance platform. The new "Link-16" data link is being fitted to USAF Vipers to further improve data connectivity. 

* F-16s have been adapted to the reconnaissance role, carrying a range of reconnaissance pods. In 1986, an F-16D was modified into a more optimized reconnaissance configuration, carrying a multi sensor bathtub-style pack on the centerline. The pack was big enough to make ground clearance minimal. This experimental fit was at least informally referred to as the "RF-16D", and labeled "F-16 Recce" (pronounced "recky") on its tailfin. Nothing came of this experiment. 

In the mid-1990s, after almost giving up on the tactical reconnaissance mission, the Air Force decided to try again to give the F-16 a reconnaissance capability, with the reconnaissance mission to be handed to the USANG. Lockheed Martin developed a prototype pod, the "Electro-Optical 1 (EO-1)" with a digital camera controlled by a laptop computer. This led to the production of four interim pods known only as the "Richmond recce pod", with a digital camera, magnetic-tape recorder, and a GPS receiver to help log image coordinates. The Richmond recce pod has seen service in the Balkans. It was replaced by the definitive "AN/ASD-11 Theatre Airborne Reconnaissance System (TARS)", with a number of improvements. All three of these pods are carried on the centerline station. 

The USAF has flown their F-16s with external jammer pods, usually mounted on the centerline pylon, with the Viper initially carrying the AN/ALQ-131 pod. The current USAF jammer pod is the Raytheon AN/ALQ-184(V)9, which can carry four Raytheon AN/ALE-50 towed decoys. As discussed in the next chapter, several foreign users have selected their own countermeasures suites. The Per Udsen company in Denmark has come up with a clever "Pylon Integrated Dispenser System (PIDS)", which fits chaff-flare dispensers to the rear of the outboard stores pylon on each wing. PIDS is in service with a number of foreign user as well as the USANG and USAF Reserve, and the company has now developed a "PID+" with missile warning capabilities. 

One of the more usual external stores carried by the F-16 is the "MXU-48" cargo pod, which is used to carry the pilot's personal effects and other gear when the fighter is being deployed to a new base. 


written by a Viper pilot.

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## Argus Panoptes

More information about the F-16 program, including images:

About the The Lockheed Martin F-16 The Lockheed Martin F-16

About F-16 Origins [1.0] F-16 Origins 

About F-16 Variants [2.0] F-16 Variants

About F-16 In US & Foreign Service [3.0] F-16 In US & Foreign Service

About F-16 Derivatives: Ching Kuo / F-2 / Golden Eagle http://www.airvectors.net/avf16_4.htmlhttp://www.airvectors.net/avf16_4.html


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## Argus Panoptes

fatman17 said:


> .....................
> 
> 
> *written by a Viper pilot*.



http://www.airvectors.net/

All written materials on this website are the work of *Greg Goebel* and are free for all use. All images on this site marked "GVG" are also the work of Greg Goebel and are free for all use.

*Proper citation of any materials taken from this site would be appreciated*, and it is recommended that revision codes be retained, since these materials are regularly updated and it's good to recognize outdated items in circulation. Top and bottom menus provide navigation -- including sitemap, updates, and Google search -- along with access to email, a blog, and a set of hyperlinks. A banner at the bottom of the page promotes a particular document each month, along with access to a comment board and a donations page. All sensible feedback is welcome.


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## Tehmasib

F-16A/B/C/D/E/F's Aircraft Gun the "23-mm Vulcan Cannon" capable of firing upto 500 Rounds in one Mission Sortie.

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## fatman17

Viper Driver Flying Hours

Wg.Cmd. Ghazanfar Latif 

Viper Driver
Name Wg.Cmd. Ghazanfar Latif 
Country 
Unit 9th squadron "Griffins" 
Flying F-16s from 1996 
Viper Hours 2500 



F-16 Flying Hours
2,000 Hours #507 on the 2K list 
Unit 9th squadron "Griffins" [Unit History] 
Date 30 April 2012 

Comment In March/April 2012, Wg Cdr Ghazanfar Latif (then OC No.5 Sqn) reached the unique milestone of becoming the 8th Pakistan Air Force F-16 pilot to complete 2000hrs. Wg Cdr Ghazanfar has been flying F-16s since 1996 and apart from participating in domestic exercises & operational deployments. He has also actively participated in several multinational exercises for PAF that include Exercise Anatolian Eagle 2004 (Turkey), Indus Viper 2008 (Pakistan) and Falcon Talon 2009 (Pakistan). 

1,000 Hours #2675 on the 1K list


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## Windjammer

*Albeit, a few years old but a classic shot of the roll out of first Block-52 for the PAF.*

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## Windjammer

Guys, is that a weapon or a cargo pod on the outer pylon.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


> Guys, is that a weapon or a cargo pod on the outer pylon.



cargo pod for sure.

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## Windjammer



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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> Guys, is that a weapon or a cargo pod on the outer pylon.



Sir with due respect..... but i thought you were the most authentic source of PAF Viper... you asking this sought of question really raised my eyebrow!


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## Last Hope

truthseeker2010 said:


> Sir with due respect..... but i thought you were the most authentic source of PAF Viper... you asking this sought of question really raised my eyebrow!


Everyone does make mistakes.


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## Windjammer

truthseeker2010 said:


> Sir with due respect..... but i thought you were the most authentic source of PAF Viper... you asking this sought of question really raised my eyebrow!



An older version flying solo made me curious..... and just to be sure, isn't it good to get a second opinion. !!


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## nitetrogen70

well looks like we are gonna be sanctioned again i wonder what will happen to the f 16 now :/

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## Gentelman

nitetrogen70 said:


> well looks like we are gonna be sanctioned again i wonder what will happen to the f 16 now :/



we are creating some of spares ourselves and upgrading F-16s engine at PAC.... 
well in case of sanctions for long time all F-16s would be grounded and it will result in emergency acquiring of 3-4 squadrons J-10Bs....


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## muse

nitetrogen70 said:


> well looks like we are gonna be sanctioned again i wonder what will happen to the f 16 now :/




This is and will remain a constant threat - and yet it's interesting that Pakistani armed forces, especially senior officers, seem to have more than a soft spot for the US - Pakistani defense acquisitions, sorry, defense grants, because Pakistan generally is not in a position to purchase top of the line defense equipment, that it seems to think it must have.

Still love those F16? No worries Uncle will allow you to fly them, when uncle decides it's in uncle's interests - in the meantime just collect your salary that uncle subsidizes

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## naseem shah

nitetrogen70 said:


> well looks like we are gonna be sanctioned again i wonder what will happen to the f 16 now :/


we should have thinked that when we were buying f 16


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## bigzgvr4

what ever f-16 have can be accomplished with jf-17 your are only missing 1 g worth of what ever you wanna call it, AND F-16 will retire from the USAF soon So then Paf Will have to look at a Jf-17 based Stealth Fighter which can rival F-35 offcourse single jet 
F-16 and Paf is bassed on the fact that USaF have these USAF had Sabers PAF got SABers USAF got F-16 PAF got f-16 USAF will get f-35 PAF will have to get some thing bassed on that that rivals it and US wont sell f-35 to Paf so only option left is China and I think Jf-17 Out performs F-16 because of capabilities it has


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## nitetrogen70

muse said:


> This is and will remain a constant threat - and yet it's interesting that Pakistani armed forces, especially senior officers, seem to have more than a soft spot for the US - Pakistani defense acquisitions, sorry, defense grants, because Pakistan generally is not in a position to purchase top of the line defense equipment, that it seems to think it must have.
> 
> Still love those F16? No worries Uncle will allow you to fly them, when uncle decides it's in uncle's interests - in the meantime just collect your salary that uncle subsidizes



that's what i don't get after having such a bad experience these fools will still look to the west, 
i guess this is what they call insanity


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## Luftwaffe

nitetrogen70 said:


> well looks like we are gonna be sanctioned again i wonder what will happen to the f 16 now :/



Same as what happened in the 90s, flying hours were reduced and some received black market spares.


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## fatman17

lets wait until we cross this bridge.....


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## fatman17

*Pakistani Air Force F-16 Pilots*

37 Pakistani Air Force pilots have reached 1,000 flying hours or more in the F-16 Fighting Falcon so far. 


Gr.Capt. Aamir Masood
(Updated: 3 Sep 2011) 
9 sqn 

Wg.Cmd. Ghazanfar Latif
(Updated: 29 Dec 2012) 
9 sqn 

Wg.Cmd. Zulfiqar "Sidewinder" Ayub
(Updated: 29 May 2010) 
9 sqn | 9 sqn 

Air.Cmd. Ashfaq Arain (Ret.)
(Updated: 14 Sep 2011) 

Wg.Cmd. Tariq Zia
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 
9 sqn 

Wg.Cmd. Ali Naeem "Baaz" Zahoor
(Updated: 13 Nov 2011) 
11 sqn 

Irfan Ahmed
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Gp.Capt. Fauad Masud Hatmi
(Updated: 22 Dec 2012) 
11 sqn | 9 sqn 

Wg.Cmd. M. Haseeb Paracha
(Updated: 30 Aug 2010) 
9 sqn | 11 sqn 

Air.Vice.Marsh. Muhammad Iqbal
(Updated: 22 Dec 2012) 
9 sqn 

Air.Vice.Marsh. Farhat Hussain Khan
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Air.Vice.Marsh. Athar Bokhari (Ret.)
(Updated: 22 Dec 2012) 

Air.Cmd. Khaleel Ahmed
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 
11 sqn 

Sqn.Ldr. Haider "Tipu" Zaidi
(Updated: 20 Feb 2011) 
11 sqn 

Wg.Cmd. Javad Saeed
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Sqn.Ldr. Khalid Mahmood (Ret.)
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Wg.Cmd. Bilal Hassan
(Updated: 23 Sep 2012) 
9 sqn | J-7 

Wg.Cmd. Waqas Ahmed Sulehri
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Wg.Cmd. Hamza Jamil
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Sqn.Ldr. Omair Ahmed Najmi
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 
11 sqn 

Sqn.Ldr. Moin "Tornado" Rana
(Updated: 29 May 2010) 

Sqn.Ldr. Khalid Mehmood
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 
9 sqn 

Sqn.Ldr. Azman Khalil
(Updated: 1 Feb 2010) 

Sqn.Ldr. Asim "Mav-Slammer" Raja
(Updated: 29 May 2010) 
9 sqn 

Sqn.Ldr. Nauman "Hornet" Ali
(Updated: 29 Jan 2011) 
11 sqn 

Sqn.Ldr. Mustafa "Lightening" Orakzai
(Updated: 17 Feb 2010) 
11 sqn 

Sqn.Ldr. Aftab "Viper-Phantom" Zia
(Updated: 29 May 2010) 
11 sqn 

Sqn.Ldr. Shazib "Falcon" Mehmood
(Updated: 21 Nov 2010) 
11 sqn 

Cdr. Sayed Muzaffar Ali (Ret.)
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Sqn.Ldr. Ali Asad Khan (Ret.)
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 


Sqn.Ldr. Muhammad Azam
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Wg.Cmd. Azher Hassan
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Air.Cmd. Razi Nawab (Ret.)
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Air.Cmd. Tariq Mahmud Ashraf
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Air.Vice.Marsh. Waseem-ud-din (Ret.)
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Air.Vice.Marsh. Mohammad Yousaf
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Sqn.Ldr. Syed Omer Shah
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 
11 sqn 


_come to think of it there arnt many F-16 pilots with many years of experience! - some of these have retired._

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## DANGER-ZONE

*Pakistan Air Force - General Dynamics F-16AM Fighting Falcon (401) at Lajes / Azores, Portugal, January 31, 2012.*






*Pakistan Air Force - General Dynamics F-16BM Fighting Falcon (401) at Lajes / Azores, Portugal, January 31, 2012.*



> *Remark:* Delivery flight to Pakistan Air Force! Back in 2008, this F16 among other F16A were heading to USA to receive some new updates, but with some problems they stay in Lajes for about four months. Four years after, they're returning to Lajes on it's way to Pakistan.

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## fatman17

good to know they are back.....


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## Xracer

Gentelman said:


> we are creating some of spares ourselves and upgrading F-16s engine at PAC....
> well in case of sanctions for long time all F-16s would be grounded and it will result in emergency acquiring of 3-4 squadrons J-10Bs....


 
J-10Bs is the better option..........


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## Donatello

Just make sure we don't get sanctioned before 2014, let the MLU happen, then US can do what ever.


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## S.U.R.B.

Donatello said:


> Just make sure we don't get sanctioned before 2014, let the MLU happen, then US can do what ever.




Don't you think even after that, it'll still be a problem as PAF must be aspiring to maintain the fleet for a decade and a half at least?



> _The Pressler sanctions led to a decade-long suspension of security assistance to Pakistan._



Let's just keep other platforms out of our imagination for the time being.
Why would we won't learn from mistakes we have made in the recent past? 

Following is quoted from Kaiser Tufail's Blog Aeronaut.He's mentioning about the kargil war.



> F-16 CAPs could not have been flown all day long as spares support was limited under the prevailing US sanctions. Random CAPs were resorted to, with a noticeable drop in border violations only as long as the F-16s were on station. There were a few cases of F-16s and Mirage-2000s locking their adversaries with the on-board radars *but caution usually prevailed and no close encounters took place.* After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be &#8216;rationalised&#8217;, a euphemism for discontinuing it altogether. That an impending war occupied the Air Staff&#8217;s minds was evident in the decision by the DCAS (Ops) for F-16 CAPs to be discontinued, unless IAF activity became unbearably provocative or threatening.
> 
> Those not aware of the gravity of the F-16 operability problem under sanctions have complained of the PAF&#8217;s lack of cooperation. Suffice it to say that if the PAF had been included in the initial planning, this anomaly (along with many others) would have emerged as a mitigating factor against the Kargil adventure. It is another matter that the Army high command did not envisage operations ever coming to such a pass. Now, it was almost as if the PAF was to blame for the Kargil venture spiralling out of control.



Let's just hope that the Falcons doesn't stay in as a spearhead of our attack for long.Or we might need to take those _cautions _ in the future as well.


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## Sinnerman108

Gentelman said:


> we are creating some of spares ourselves *and upgrading F-16s engine at PAC.... *
> well in case of sanctions for long time all F-16s would be grounded and it will result in emergency acquiring of 3-4 squadrons J-10Bs....



Can you please enlighten us with the upgrade part ?


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## Luftwaffe

salman108 said:


> Can you please enlighten us with the upgrade part ?



New version of member AZADPAKISTAN, get the clue.

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## Last Hope

Donatello said:


> Just make sure we don't get sanctioned before 2014, let the MLU happen, then US can do what ever.



Sure, I'll talk to Secretary of Defense. _Yaar hai apna_.


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## Gentelman

salman108 said:


> Can you please enlighten us with the upgrade part ?



In 1989, Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) at
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC),
Kamra was assigned the task of
overhauling the Pratt & Whitney F100-
PW-200 turbofan engine that powers the
F-16 fleet in PAF service. The F-16s
structural modifications were made in
engine, fuselage, ailerons and flaps. These
structural modifications were a part of its
type extension program. Reinforcement
plates were also added on the fuselage to
strengthen the structural integrity of the
F-16s, thus extending its service life.
MRF has also upgraded the F100 engine
from 200 to 220E configuration. The
-220Econfiguration provides better
performance and greater reliability. Up to
26 modifications were made in F-100
engines modules including fan, engine
core, fuel nozzles, gearbox, high pressure
turbineetc
Improvement in the service life of various
F-100 modules is as follows:
Fan Module 1800-4000 Hours
Core Module 4000 Hours
Turbine 3500 Hours
Augmentor Module 4000 Hours
Gearbox Module 4000 Hours
The repair, up-gradation and overhaul of
F-100 Engine, replacement of wing and
fuselage fuel cells are also carried out by
MRF. MRF has been certified for aircraft
painting and de-painting as well.The
F-16s avionics, structuraland engine
related modifications allowed the PAF to
maintain a high level of readiness despite
U.S. sanctions and arms embargo from
the West and did not hamper the
operational preparedness of the fighting
force during both times of peace and war.
Over the years,F-16s have participated in
various multinational exercises around
the globe. The devoted ground crew has
always ensured the combat ready status
of these falcons. F-16s participation in
counter insurgency operations in Global
War on Terror are the recent example of
their combat record.


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## Donatello

Last Hope said:


> Sure, I'll talk to Secretary of Defense. _Yaar hai apna_.



Seems legit.

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Just make sure we don't get sanctioned before 2014, let the MLU happen, then US can do what ever.



lets stop this nonsense....
its not going to happen for many reasons....one is below.

*Opinion Pipedream?* 

Dr Farrukh Saleem
Sunday, March 10, 2013 

Capital suggestion



The good news is that the cost of the Pak-Iran gas pipeline has come down from $1.5 billion to $1.3 billion. The bad news is that neither Iran nor Pakistan has $1.3 billion. The good news is that President Zardari will be inaugurating the pipeline on Monday. The bad news is that a &#8216;pipedream&#8217; is being inaugurated, not a pipeline.

There are two major prerequisites to building the pipeline: money and technology. There are two sources that have the money: Chinese banks and western financial institutions. There are two sources that have the required technology: Gazprom, the Moscow-based gas giant and western pipeline entities. On March 14, 2012, the Beijing-based Industrial and Commercial Bank of China Ltd (ICBC) backed out of a deal to finance the Pak-Iran gas pipeline. On May 14, 2012, Gazprom, the largest extractor of natural gas in the world, pulled out of the Pak-Iran pipeline project.

No money, no technology. All politics. Lately, the Americans seem to be ditching our president and our president is out with a double-edged sword: annoy the Americans and when the project actually fails the next rulers in Islamabad can be conveniently held responsible for the failure.

The Iranians are completely isolated and are therefore playing along pretending that they are still interacting with other countries of the world. On February 6, 2012, Iran defaulted on payments for wheat imports from Ukraine. On February 7, 2012, Iran defaulted on payments worth $144 million for rice shipments from India. Conclusion: Iran has no hard currency left in its reserves.

The good news is that Iran is desperate to deal with Pakistan. The bad news is that South Pars gas field&#8217;s reserves are yet to be ratified by a third party. The good news is that Sui Northern and Sui Southern are charging us around $3.50 per unit of gas. The bad news is that Iranian gas price is pegged to the price of crude and at the current level Pakistani consumers would have to cough out around $13 per unit of Iranian gas. More recently, Pakistan has asked Iran to revise the price of gas downwards from 78 percent of crude to 70 percent of crude (Iran has refused to renegotiate the price downwards).

*On December22, 2011, the National Bank of Pakistan (NBP), responsible for raising the rupee component of the project, informed the Economic Coordination Committee&#8217;s (ECC) Steering Committee on Iran-Pakistan (IP) Pipeline that it had &#8220;branches in different countries of the world and therefore it feared that these branches could be closed due to US sanctions.&#8221; Subsequently, the NBP pulled out of the project*.

*In December 2011, the Oil and Gas Development Company Limited (OGDCL) &#8220;already cash constrained due to the circular debt, said that its US investors had threatened to retreat if the company financed the IP gas pipeline project.&#8221; Subsequently, OGDCL pulled out of the project*.

*The other good news is that our second-largest source of grant assistance is Saudi Arabia (America is the largest). The other bad news is that al-Mamlakah al-&#8217;Arabiyyah as-Su&#8217;udiyyah does not want Pakistan to trade with Iran*.

Our pipedream fantasy; End tragedy solve the riddle; And dissipate ideals of indecision pipe; Pipedreams like these will; Cease and die unleashed. 



The writer is a columnist based in Islamabad. Email: farrukh15@hotmail.com. Twitter: @Saleemfarrukh

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## Argus Panoptes

Thorough Pro said:


> So you too belong to that ignorant Pakistani breed which knows that* we can't even produce an indiginuous 50cc motor cycle engine, but somehow we can always "Tweak" and "Modify" every other ******* high tech jet engine, radar, missile to perform better which the original designers and manufacturers failed to do so.* I bet your mom still wipes your ***, doesn't she?



The inability to produce smaller engines yet being able to modify high tech components is an indication of misplaced priorities, that is all. 

After all, we emphasize higher education more than primary schools. We pay more for cutting edge medical care than we do for basic health care. Similarly, we spend more on developing tools and facilities to help our defense forces than we do to develop more basic technologies for civilian uses.

Some of these priorities are dictated by our difficult security situation, some are not.

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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day&#8220;*

The secret to my success is that I always managed to live to fly another day.&#8221; 
-- Gen. Chuck Yeager

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## Windjammer

*Falcon's Domain*

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## Armstrong

Argus Panoptes said:


> The inability to produce smaller engines yet being able to modify high tech components is an indication of misplaced priorities, that is all.
> 
> After all, we emphasize higher education more than primary schools. We pay more for cutting edge medical care than we do for basic health care. Similarly, we spend more on developing tools and facilities to help our defense forces than we do to develop more basic technologies for civilian uses.
> 
> Some of these priorities are dictated by our difficult security situation, some are not.



Not misplaced priorities per se but a misplaced sense of organizational structure of our economy ! The better way to go involves developing your cottage, small scale & supporting industries first & then go onto value-added industries. And so instead of developing industries that produce everything from spark plugs to the chassis of an automobile we went towards producing an automobile (Suzuki, Honda etc. - their manufacturing plants) & imported stuff to put into them !

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## DV RULES

fatman17 said:


> lets stop this nonsense....
> its not going to happen for many reasons....one is below.
> 
> *Opinion Pipedream?*
> 
> Dr Farrukh Saleem
> Sunday, March 10, 2013
> 
> Capital suggestion
> 
> 
> 
> The good news is that the cost of the Pak-Iran gas pipeline has come down from $1.5 billion to $1.3 billion. The bad news is that neither Iran nor Pakistan has $1.3 billion. The good news is that President Zardari will be inaugurating the pipeline on Monday. The bad news is that a pipedream is being inaugurated, not a pipeline.
> 
> There are two major prerequisites to building the pipeline: money and technology. There are two sources that have the money: Chinese banks and western financial institutions. There are two sources that have the required technology: Gazprom, the Moscow-based gas giant and western pipeline entities. On March 14, 2012, the Beijing-based Industrial and Commercial Bank of China Ltd (ICBC) backed out of a deal to finance the Pak-Iran gas pipeline. On May 14, 2012, Gazprom, the largest extractor of natural gas in the world, pulled out of the Pak-Iran pipeline project.
> 
> No money, no technology. All politics. Lately, the Americans seem to be ditching our president and our president is out with a double-edged sword: annoy the Americans and when the project actually fails the next rulers in Islamabad can be conveniently held responsible for the failure.
> 
> The Iranians are completely isolated and are therefore playing along pretending that they are still interacting with other countries of the world. On February 6, 2012, Iran defaulted on payments for wheat imports from Ukraine. On February 7, 2012, Iran defaulted on payments worth $144 million for rice shipments from India. Conclusion: Iran has no hard currency left in its reserves.
> 
> The good news is that Iran is desperate to deal with Pakistan. The bad news is that South Pars gas fields reserves are yet to be ratified by a third party. The good news is that Sui Northern and Sui Southern are charging us around $3.50 per unit of gas. The bad news is that Iranian gas price is pegged to the price of crude and at the current level Pakistani consumers would have to cough out around $13 per unit of Iranian gas. More recently, Pakistan has asked Iran to revise the price of gas downwards from 78 percent of crude to 70 percent of crude (Iran has refused to renegotiate the price downwards).
> 
> *On December22, 2011, the National Bank of Pakistan (NBP), responsible for raising the rupee component of the project, informed the Economic Coordination Committees (ECC) Steering Committee on Iran-Pakistan (IP) Pipeline that it had branches in different countries of the world and therefore it feared that these branches could be closed due to US sanctions. Subsequently, the NBP pulled out of the project*.
> 
> *In December 2011, the Oil and Gas Development Company Limited (OGDCL) already cash constrained due to the circular debt, said that its US investors had threatened to retreat if the company financed the IP gas pipeline project. Subsequently, OGDCL pulled out of the project*.
> 
> *The other good news is that our second-largest source of grant assistance is Saudi Arabia (America is the largest). The other bad news is that al-Mamlakah al-Arabiyyah as-Suudiyyah does not want Pakistan to trade with Iran*.
> 
> Our pipedream fantasy; End tragedy solve the riddle; And dissipate ideals of indecision pipe; Pipedreams like these will; Cease and die unleashed.
> 
> 
> 
> The writer is a columnist based in Islamabad. Email: farrukh15@hotmail.com. Twitter: @Saleemfarrukh




Obvious for long time and reality, everything for election benefits, blind efforts with blind belief for blind nation then why not let it be played for sensation thirsty audience?

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## Chak Bamu

What does this column have to do with this thread? I could point a number of loopholes, but that would derail the thread. Pls let us keep this thread uncluttered.


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## air marshal

AircraftSlides.com - Auction Detail

AircraftSlides.com - Auction Detail

AircraftSlides.com - Auction Detail


----------



## fatman17

*Quote of the Day

&#8220;Flying the F-16, second to none best fun with your pants on.&#8221; 
-- Bumper sticker*



Chak Bamu said:


> What does this column have to do with this thread? I could point a number of loopholes, but that would derail the thread. Pls let us keep this thread uncluttered.



people started discussing sanctions bcuz of the iran-pipeline so-called deal

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## Windjammer

*
Armed And Dangerous.*

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## MZUBAIR

Windjammer said:


> *
> Armed And Dangerous.*



Is there any practice these men do to fit these arms in effective time?

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## Last Hope

MZUBAIR said:


> Is there any practice these men do to fit these arms in effective time?


Yes. You can see them in action in Falcon Air Meet 2010 in Jordan, where they fit a Sidewinder on Mirage in limited time. 

Watch 3:10 onwards. You will see PAF guys at 4:20.

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## IceCold

MZUBAIR said:


> Is there any practice these men do to fit these arms in effective time?



Is this a sidewinder or AMRAAM? According to NATO standards it should be AMRAAM on the wingtip.


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## Last Hope

IceCold said:


> Is this a sidewinder or AMRAAM? According to NATO standards it should be AMRAAM on the wingtip.



Sidewinder. It is a Block-15, all Block-52s and MLU will carry AMRAAMs.

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## Manticore

high profile ECS Exhaust port




Pakistani F-16 MLU - Zone-Five Aircraft Modeling Forums

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## Windjammer

*
Rising With The Sun.*

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## razgriz19

ANTIBODY said:


> high profile ECS Exhaust port
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani F-16 MLU - Zone-Five Aircraft Modeling Forums



Is this an APU exhaust?


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## Imran Khan

razgriz19 said:


> Is this an APU exhaust?



NOPE its Environmental Control System exhaust sir jee not APU exhaust


here is APU exhaust


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## zafarsheikh

Us will never help us in this case


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## fatman17

zafarsheikh said:


> Us will never help us in this case



what case is that?


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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day

&#8220;If black boxes survive air crashes &#8212; why don't they make the whole plane out of that stuff?&#8221; 
-- George Carlin, Comedian*

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## Windjammer

*A nice headshot of a PAF Block-52 F-16D.*

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## Manticore

Shrikes and HARMs

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## Munir

The f16 is designed as lightweight air superiority fighter. It evolved into multirole. But even then the need for more then two BVR is almost zero. If optimized one used two BVR in outer stations first. Then moved in to do the job with AIM9. After that it was either being killed or time to save plane and pilot. Adding 4 or even 6 BVR on such plane is just adding penalty during the actual combat. Bigger planes an handle the drag and have bigger radar. So can stay out of range and use maybe 4 BVR... Here you have the F15... 

Those dual racks are a hell for the agility cause your G load is down to 5... You do not want that during do or die dogfight. The next to the intake BVR station is a hell for the engine. There are more then a few planes that suffered engine problems after launching.

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## Kompromat

@Munir

Its a pleasure to have you back again.

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## fatman17

* Pakistani F-16s carrying DB-110 pods have flown over a thousand missions and been very effective at spotting Taliban camps and units of Taliban themselves*.

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> * Pakistani F-16s carrying DB-110 pods have flown over a thousand missions and been very effective at spotting Taliban camps and units of Taliban themselves*.



I hope that they are not just spotting them but bombing their sorry a$$es to hell as well!


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## Thunder_Rider

Last Hope said:


> Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s &#8211; $3 billion
> 
> PAF F-16D Block 52
> (click to view full)
> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of up to 36 F-16C Block 50 and F-16D Block 52 two-seater aircraft &#8211; a buy of 18 jets, with an option for another 18. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $3 billion.



Having 18 more Block 52s will definitely give us more BVR capability, strike and boost in regional Air power.
Any chances of practicing this option......?


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## Last Hope

Thunder_Rider said:


> Having 18 more Block 52s will definitely give us more BVR capability, strike and boost in regional Air power.
> Any chances of practicing this option......?



99% no. Block-52s were just a force-multiplier, used to fill the time gap till J-10s arrive.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Last Hope said:


> 99% no. Block-52s were just a force-multiplier, used to fill the time gap till J-10s arrive.



Bro, neither we have 36 F-16 / B-52 nor FC-20 / J-10 arriving any soon or possibly never.
Why are you kept on saying that we have 36 block 52s while we never saw any proof for that.


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## Last Hope

danger-zone said:


> Bro, neither we have 36 F-16 / B-52 nor FC-20 / J-10 arriving any soon or possibly never.
> Why are you kept on saying that we have 36 block 52s while we never saw any proof for that.



I didn't say anything about having 36 Block 52s. It was misinterpret. I always said that there are 36 new hangars at PAF Base Shahbaz and initial deal was for 36 Block 52s, which means we could again go for 18 more, but which is highly unlikely so for now.


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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> ... but which is highly unlikely so for now.



As unlikely as J-10's coming in...


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## Bratva




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## Windjammer

*
Ready to Roll*

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## Nishan_101

I think it was far better for PAF to go for about 57 new Block-52s(25 Cs and 32 Ds models with 7 Ds for CSS for enhance training) along with negotiating about 28 old F-16s and 21 from Venuezvella in 2002 and made a deal at that time and also for the upgrade of all the 80 F-16s in Turkey. So the condition now would be quite different.


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## Storm Force

WHEN ARE THE 14 F16S GOING TO ARRVE BLOCK A/B any body

IF THEY HAVE ARRIVED when did they arrive CAUSE offically there are only 3 F16 sqds in service 

2 block a/b ie 44 MLU and 1 sdq of block 52 to date


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## TaimiKhan

Storm Force said:


> WHEN ARE THE 14 F16S GOING TO ARRVE BLOCK A/B any body
> 
> IF THEY HAVE ARRIVED when did they arrive CAUSE offically there are only 3 F16 sqds in service
> 
> 2 block a/b ie 44 MLU and 1 sdq of block 52 to date



No deal yet reached for them. So they aren't arriving anytime soon. 

For now 45 olders ones with upgrades going on and 18 Blk 52s.


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## Storm Force

I HAVE OFTEN QUOTED PAF F16 complement to be 63 F16s in total. ONLY TO BE SHOT DOWN by patriotic members telling me its 77 or even 86 

Never understood WHERE 86 came from


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## TaimiKhan

Storm Force said:


> I HAVE OFTEN QUOTED PAF F16 complement to be 63 F16s in total. ONLY TO BE SHOT DOWN by patriotic members telling me its 77 or even 86
> 
> Never understood WHERE 86 came from



So far i have never seen the sanner patriotic members claim the 86 figure, we all agree with the 63 figure. 

May be the ones quoting 86 are as patriotic as you are

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## Storm Force

DONT mean to rude

BUT PAF need A BIG INJECTION OF BLOCK 52s or FC20 in the near future....

EVEN IF RAFALE NEVER COMES THE upgraded MIRAGE2000- 5 with 52 planes & over 100 mig29/mig29k would be a major headache for 63 F16 & 50 JF17 block 1

the 170 su30mki takes THINGS to another level completely.... 

for me the F16/52 REMAINS the single MOST LIKELY WORTHY deterrant to the IAF that PAF can get.

BUT THEY NEED TO IRON OUT THEIR DIFFERENCES WITH USA and get the additonal 14 MLU F16 & 18 BLOCK 52s options.

what are they waiting for ???


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## TaimiKhan

Storm Force said:


> DONT mean to rude
> 
> BUT PAF need A BIG INJECTION OF BLOCK 52s or FC20 in the near future....
> 
> EVEN IF RAFALE NEVER COMES THE upgraded MIRAGE2000- 5 with 52 planes & over 100 mig29/mig29k would be a major headache for 63 F16 & 50 JF17 block 1
> 
> the 170 su30mki takes THINGS to another level completely....
> 
> for me the F16/52 REMAINS the single MOST LIKELY WORTHY deterrant to the IAF that PAF can get.
> 
> BUT THEY NEED TO IRON OUT THEIR DIFFERENCES WITH USA and get the additonal 14 MLU F16 & 18 BLOCK 52s options.
> 
> what are they waiting for ???



Waiting for money and the time when differences with US end (which may never)


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## Pak47

I believe Paf will opt for aesa radars in the future.

F-16's with aesa radars?

Your thoughts?


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## Luftwaffe

Pak47 said:


> I believe Paf will opt for aesa radars in the future.
> 
> F-16's with aesa radars? Your thoughts?



Not so soon, as of now PAF is satisfied with 54 APG-68[V]9.

corrected!


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## Pak47

Luftwaffe said:


> Not so soon, as of now PAF is satisfied with 54 APG-63[V]9.



I know not any time soon. I was thinking early 2020's.

Also, if the U.S. (for some reason) is not willing to offer us their Aesa systems is it possible to fit a Chinese or European Aesa system onto the birds? Similar to some of our f-7's.


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## Luftwaffe

Pak47 said:


> Also, if the U.S. (for some reason) is not willing to offer us their Aesa systems is it possible to fit a Chinese or European Aesa system onto the birds? Similar to some of our f-7's.



SELIX Vixen 1000E could be the option in the future or anything further developed but still US approval would be required to upgrade F-16s.

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## umair86pk

Luftwaffe said:


> Not so soon, as of now PAF is satisfied with 54 APG-63[V]9.



APG-63 is the F-15 radar not F-16's it is equipped with APG-68


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## Luftwaffe

umair86pk said:


> APG-63 is the F-15 radar not F-16's it is equipped with APG-68



My mistake APG-68 V9 corrected above.


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## Bossman

PAF will exercise the option for additional 18 F16 Blk 52s within 2013

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## Donatello

Bossman said:


> PAF will exercise the option for additional 18 F16 Blk 52s within 2013




Source please.


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## janu.bravo

Bossman said:


> PAF will exercise the option for additional 18 F16 Blk 52s within 2013



My thinking is same....as USA offers 2 billion dollar defence equipemnt.

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## Bossman

Donatello said:


> Source please.



I am the source.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Bossman said:


> I am the source.



You are not alone in this very FORUM, we have at least two dozen more that call themselves INSIDERS & are SOURCE as well.
Welcome abort, its been long we had no fun at all.

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## Bossman

danger-zone said:


> You are not alone in this very FORUM, we have at least two dozen more that call themselves INSIDERS & are SOURCE as well.
> Welcome abort, its been long we had no fun at all.



I never implied that I am an insider or have access to inside information.

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## S-A-B-E-R->

Bossman said:


> I never implied that I am an insider or have access to inside information.



source or no source our AF is a sucker for F16 so it wont be a surprise if we get more of these birds.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> source or no source our AF is a sucker for F16 so it wont be a surprise if we get more of these birds.


F-16 is nothing more than a chain now and nobody wants to be a slave at his own will but stupids do. 
I agree there are still many boneheads in PAF that want comfortable cockpits than national interest.

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## araz

Press Trust of India | Updated: April 05, 2013 09:38 IST




Washington:* In an indication of the "positive trajectory" of the bilateral ties, the US has issued a waiver, second in six months, for sale of major defence equipment to Pakistan citing national security interest.

The waiver issued quietly by the then Deputy Secretary of States Thomas Nides on February 15 and posted on the State Department website a week later on February 22 would pave the way for some major defence equipment sales to Pakistan.

"The Department issued the waiver because we have determined that security assistance is important to the national security interests of the United States and is a critical component of US efforts to continue to build a strong, mutually beneficial relationship with Pakistan grounded in concrete action on areas of shared interest," a State Department spokesperson told PTI.

The waiver, issued within a fortnight of Secretary of State John Kerry taking the reins US diplomacy on February 1, allows for the execution of America's Foreign Military Financing (FMF) programme, and for the sale or export of certain Major Defence Equipment (MDE).

"Major Defence Equipment," means any US manufactured defence article whose export is controlled by US Munitions List which has a nonrecurring research and development cost of more than USD 50,000,000 or a total production cost of more than USD 200,000,000. These items require Congressional notification, the spokesman said.

"As a matter of policy we do not discuss proposed defence sales or transfers until they have been formally notified to Congress," he said, refraining to give any figure to the expected sale of major defence items to Pakistan after this waiver.

According to a known South Asia expert, the two waivers issued by the then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in September were sweeping and so allowed the release of all forms of assistance for the fiscal 2012 including nonmilitary.

It seems the main purpose of the February 15 waiver was to create a positive atmosphere for meetings in Washington DC with visiting senior military officials from Pakistan.

"These waivers don't represent an improvement in US-Pak relations so much as they represent attempts to improve such relations," an expert explained said adding that from the US perspective, some level of working relations with Pakistan is necessary for the US drawdown from Afghanistan to go smoothly.

Observing that security assistance builds Pakistan's capabilities in countering terrorism, the State Department official said that such assistance will continue to be implemented consistent with its policy goals of supporting Pakistan's shared interest in regional stability and countering terrorism.

"Despite the past challenges in our bilateral relationship with Pakistan, we are encouraged by recent engagements which indicate the positive trajectory of the relationship, including productive working group meetings addressing the full range of the relationship and Pakistan's participation in Core Group meetings with Afghanistan," the spokesperson said.

"As we have said, our number one shared priority remains pursuing our counterterrorism objectives to secure the safety of American and Pakistani citizens. We face a common threat from a common enemy, and we must confront terrorism and extremism together," the official asserted.

In a two-paragraph notice to US exporters posted on the website February 22, the Directorate of Defence Trade Controls of the State Department said Section 203 of the Enhanced Partnership with Pakistan Act of 2009 (Public Law 111-73), which is more popular as Kerry-Lugar-Berman bill, prohibits for fiscal years 2012-2014 the issuance of export licenses for major defence equipment to be exported to Pakistan absent an appropriate certification or waiver under Section 203 in the fiscal year.

"On February 15, 2013, Deputy Secretary Thomas Nides signed a waiver of these prohibitions for the current fiscal year. DDTC is now reviewing all license applications for the export to Pakistan of defence articles, including major defence equipment, on a case-by-case basis," said the notification.

Under the Kerry-Lugar-Berman bill the US can't approve sale of major defence equipment to Pakistan unless the Secretary of State either gives a waiver under national security interest or certifies that Pakistan is continuing to cooperate US to dismantle supplier networks relating to the acquisition of nuclear weapons-related materials, and has demonstrated a sustained commitment to and is making significant efforts towards combating terrorist groups.

The bill requires the Secretary of State to certify that Pakistan has made progress on matters such as ceasing support, including by any elements within the Pakistan military or its intelligence agency, to extremist and terrorist groups, particularly to any group that has conducted attacks against United States or coalition forces in Afghanistan, or against the territory or people of neighboring countries.

It also requires the State Department to certify that Pakistan is taking steps to prevent Al Qaeda, the Taliban and associated terrorist groups, such as Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed, from operating in the territory of Pakistan, including carrying out cross-border attacks into neighboring countries, closing terrorist camps in the FATA (federally administered tribal areas), dismantling terrorist bases of operations in other parts of the country, including Quetta and Muridke, and taking action when provided with intelligence about high-level terrorist targets.

Among other things the State Department also needs to certify that Pakistan is strengthening counterterrorism and anti-money laundering laws; and that the security forces of Pakistan are not materially and substantially subverting the political or judicial processes of Pakistan.

However, under the Kerry Lugar Berman bill, these conditions could be waived of the Secretary of State under national security interests.


courtesy of Sultan of pakdef.info. Thank you for the info.

Read between the lines and you have a confirmed source from the enemy itself.
Araz



danger-zone said:


> F-16 is nothing more than a chain now and nobody wants to be a slave at his own will but stupids do.
> I agree there are still many boneheads in PAF that want comfortable cockpits than national interest.



I understand where you are coming from but my friend beggers cant be choosers. Secondly there is some comfort in numbers for various reasons. Thirdly if you want more MLUs you will need to give them something in return. It is purely business as usual. You cannot turn around and say you want an untested and uninducted fighter version in your AF forsaking a battle proven platform. You can call me a bone head as well but stop and think about the counter argument and see where the decisions are coming from. You alone are not the only patriot in this country.
Araz

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## fatman17

Thirdly if you want more MLUs you will need to give them something in return. It is purely business as usual

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...n-f-16-discussions-2-a-429.html#ixzz2PxwpWiWF


tirah valley op.. being one such example.

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## fatman17

*Today in history*

10 Apr 1992 
First Pakistani aircraft: F-16A (#90-943) and F-16B (#90-948) arrive at AMARC under designations AAFG0001 & AAFG0002. They are the first of 28 Peace Gate III & IV aircraft to be embargoed


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## Najam Khan

11sqn new patch.









fatman17 said:


> Thirdly if you want more MLUs you will need to give them something in return. It is purely business as usual
> 
> tirah valley op.. being one such example.


This has become a pre-requisite now, I don't see those 14 machines coming back any time soon. Both sides have become silent on the subject.

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## Last Hope

Najam Khan said:


> 11sqn new patch.


I like the motto and the concept of the patch, but not the patch itself. The current patch is classy.

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## Tacticool

A.o.A
Sir i have some queries. No one is answering them in forums.
How many no of f-16s have been upgraded to mlu standard till now
They said they'll upgrade one per month so it should be more than 12 by now in turkey.
Any news about new submarines?
when fourth f-22p frigate will be handed over?


----------



## Windjammer

*
Bombed up and ready to deliver.*

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## Edevelop

Windjammer said:


> *A nice headshot of a PAF Block-52 F-16D.*



nice pic

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## Munir

Windjammer said:


> *
> Bombed up and ready to deliver.*



Always nice to see pictures of fighter-planes you have touched and watched for hours... 726 and 728 (top gun) were in Turkey! It is an old pic. This plane had shifted to the other squadron and then had its Falcon up upgrade removed to be MLU'ed.

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## Tacticool

A.o.A
Sir i have some queries. No one is answering them in forums.
How many no of f-16s have been upgraded to mlu standard till now
They said they'll upgrade one per month so it should be more than 12 by now in turkey.
Any news about new submarines?
when fourth f-22p frigate will be handed over?

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## fatman17

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> A.o.A
> Sir i have some queries. No one is answering them in forums.
> How many no of f-16s have been upgraded to mlu standard till now
> They said they'll upgrade one per month so it should be more than 12 by now in turkey.
> Any news about new submarines?
> when fourth f-22p frigate will be handed over?



3 MLU pattern a/c returned from US.
6 MLU completed in TAI.
no good news on subs unfortunately its about resource constraints.
in June we should get 4th F-22 Sword class frigate.

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## Munir

I guess that after the 6 MLU'ed in Turkey the rest is done in Pakistan by Turkish engineers. I think I can say nothing more then that.


----------



## Tacticool

Where these f-16s are stationed? will they be sent to their respective squadrons or new squadrons will be made of mlu f-16s?
What is difference between usa upgraded and turkish upgraded f-16s?


----------



## Windjammer

*An old but much clearer image of one of the first Block-52s to arrive in Pakistan.

Here you can see why the F-16 keeps it's nose up longer after touchdown as the shape of it's underside acts like an air-brake.*


----------



## Jango

Windjammer said:


> *An old but much clearer image of one of the first Block-52s to arrive in Pakistan.
> 
> Here you can see why the F-16 keeps it's nose up longer after touchdown as the shape of it's underside acts like an air-brake.*



The F-15 also uses this tactic...


----------



## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> The F-15 also uses this tactic...



I'm not sure dear since the F-15 has a giant air brake on it's spine where as the F-16 has them adjacent to it's elevators.


----------



## Jango

Windjammer said:


> I'm not sure dear since the F-15 has a giant air brake on it's spine where as the F-16 has them adjacent to it's elevators.



Makes no difference...

Search for Red Flag mass recovery on google and click on a link and then watch the F-15 landings.


----------



## gambit

> Windjammer said:
> 
> 
> 
> *An old but much clearer image of one of the first Block-52s to arrive in Pakistan.
> 
> Here you can see why the F-16 keeps it's nose up longer after touchdown as the shape of it's underside acts like an air-brake.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nuclearpak said:
> 
> 
> 
> The F-15 also uses this tactic...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Windjammer said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure dear since the F-15 has a giant air brake on it's spine where as the F-16 has them adjacent to it's elevators.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

It is called 'aerodynamic braking'...

Flight Training: Soft Field Techniques


> For a soft-field takeoff, how high should a pilot hold the nose? During a soft-field landing, *how much aerodynamic braking is enough?* Expect your examiner to ask such questions. In your answers, remember that controllability is the overriding concern. Examiners often hear applicants recite that a nose-high attitude transfers weight to the wings as quickly as possible on takeoff, then in flight see them succumb to the "more is better" philosophy that leads to scraping the tail-tiedown ring as a sacrifice to the god of lift. These souls forget that drastically increased angles of attack create so much drag that the ground roll increases dramatically. The Airplane Flying Handbook (FAA-H-8083-3) reminds applicants, instructors, and examiners that, "As the airplane accelerates, enough back-elevator pressure should be applied to establish a positive angle of attack and to reduce the weight supported by the nosewheel." The idea is to reduce, not eliminate, weight on the nosewheel.


To sum it up, aerodynamic braking during landing is to use as much of the body to create as much drag as possible. On the other hand, as the above section stated, if pitch up attitude is too high but there is not enough engine thrust for take-off, then no matter how much pitch up to create drag, there is just enough lift to spin the wheels but not to slow down the aircraft, resulting in a longer landing roll. There must be a balance between aerodynamic drag and actual physical drag between tire rubber and runway.

It is a balance initially difficult for a student pilot to achieve and in trying to find that balance, there would be a few hard hits on the nose gear. I know it took me a few landings to learn to find that balance. Maintainers hate it when the nose strut leaks because of those hard landings.

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## Jango

gambit said:


> It is a balance initially difficult for a student pilot to achieve and in trying to find that balance, there would be a few hard hits on the nose gear. I know it took me a few landings to learn to find that balance. Maintainers hate it when the nose strut leaks because of those hard landings.



That was gonna be my next question, you answered it before I even asked...thanks.


----------



## gambit

nuclearpak said:


> That was gonna be my next question, you answered it before I even asked...thanks.


Some aircrafts, civilian and military, will allow you to have high enough landing AoA, to actually have enough of the aircraft's weight on the main gear to give you both aerodynamic and tire drag. The trick lies in knowing your aircraft, how to 'play' the throttle, and how much nose-up (flare) to make upon weight-on-wheels (WoW) on the main gear. Of course, landing weight is a factor, if a -16 came back still with ordnance because of no targets, like how often that happened during Desert Storm, then that would affect his landing speed, weight, and how much nose-up AoA he can produce without stalling. *THAT* would be absolutely embarrassing.

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## fatman17

*Is There Anything An F-16 Cannot Do?*


April 21, 2013: 

The U.S. Air Force prefers to use its F-16 fighters for everything. While the F-16 is a capable and versatile aircraft, the main reason for using it so much is because it is so cheap to operate. It costs the air force $23,000 per hour to operate an F-16C. Other fighters are much more expensive. An F-22 costs $68,000 an hour, while an F-15C costs $42,000, and an F-15E $36,000. 

The only aircraft that beats the F-16C is the A-10C, which costs $18,000 an hour. But the A-10 is not a fighter and is optimized for ground support. The F-16 can also do that but not as well. The other ground support aircraft, the AC-130U costs $46,000 an hour. That&#8217;s why these are being replaced by C-130 transports ($18,000 an hour), with special cargo containers consisting of sensors and weapons similar to those on the AC-130. 

The F-16, like the A-10 can also drop smart bombs. Both aircraft are much cheaper at this than the bombers. The B-52H costs $70,000 an hour, the B-1B $58,000, and the B-2 $169,000. The problem with the bombers is that with smart bombs you don&#8217;t need a lot of bombs. So what the F-16 can carry (a dozen or more, depending on weight) is usually adequate in places like Afghanistan. For an attack on, say, North Korea, the bombers would come into their own, at least for the initial assault when there are a lot of targets to hit. 

With the right sensors, missiles, and electronic weapons, plus well-trained pilots, the F-16 can beat just about any other fighter out there. For stealth fighters that would have to include sensors that can handle stealth. But stealth fighters often have the best sensors and electronics as well. Thus against most foes a well tricked out F-16 can do it all.


_i'm wondering what the PAF costs are. one cannot make a straight conversion based on FX rate but a realistic estimate would be 50% of the USAF cost. that is $ 10-12,000 per hour or is that still too high?_

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## sancho

fatman17 said:


> _i'm wondering what the PAF costs are. one cannot make a straight conversion based on FX rate but a realistic estimate would be 50% of the USAF cost. that is $ 10-12,000 per hour or is that still too high?_



The problem is, that most countries include different things into the operational, but that costs is indeed pretty high for an F16, that normally is rated around $7500, Gripen around $5000, the F18SH around $10000, Rafale around $13000 according to figures from the Brazilian FX2 competition.

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## Abu Zolfiqar

Gut feeling tells me the costs include pre-flight checks by ground crew, fuel, and if course post flight/mission they do comprehensive checks. These aircrafts have so many moving parts (some which get hot!) so I guess costs include maintenance type shyt 

On higher tech fighters there are components that have to be changed after each flight, etc 

I'm not speaking from authority though .

Ground techies on PAF bases make nowhere near as much income and our flight hours are hell less than US for obvious reasons


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## fatman17

*AESA radar sparks new life into the F-16*

Singapore Air Show » February 16, 2012

by David Donald and Chris Pocock


An F-16 in the flying display underlines interest in possible future variance with the AESA radar.

Lockheed Martin yesterday unveiled a new version of the evergreen F-16 Fighting Falcon designated the F-16V. The new moniker is derived from the fighter&#8217;s long-standing unofficial nickname: Viper. It will apply to existing aircraft that are upgraded with AESA radars, and new builds. The F-16V will also include a new mission computer and cockpit display.


At the Singapore Airshow, Northrop Grumman and Raytheon are busy promoting their competing AESAs for the F-16V, in a scrap that increasingly looks like &#8220;winner takes all.&#8221; Six days ago the U.S. Air Force issued a second request for information covering an AESA upgrade for its F-16s, having initially asked industry last August. This upgrade could cover about 350 aircraft in a program driven by delays in fielding the F-35.

Korea has just issued an RFP for an AESA radar upgrade to its F-16s, and the U.S. government has offered the same to Taiwan as a less politically sensitive response to its request for 66 new F-16s. In January, Northrop Grumman joined Raytheon in receiving government authorization to export their wares to the two Asian countries. Although the U.S. Air Force and export programs are separate, it appears highly probable that the export customers will await the outcome of the U.S. decision before making their own choices.

Both radar houses possess good credentials. Raytheon is offering the RACR (Raytheon Advanced Combat Radar), which builds on the experience gained with delivering hundreds of AESA radars into the Boeing Super Hornet program. Northrop Grumman is the incumbent radar supplier in the F-16, having produced more than 6,000 radars for the aircraft in over 30 years. That number, swelled by mid-life upgrades, includes 80 earlier APG-80 AESA units for the United Arab Emirates&#8217; Block 60 F-16E/Fs. It also built the F-22&#8217;s AESA radar, and is supplying the APG-81 for the F-35.

Commonality of modes with the F-35 and resultant cross-program synergy is seen as one of the key attributes of Northrop Grumman&#8217;s SABR (scalable agile beam radar) proposal. Indeed, no new modes were created for the SABR, all being ported in from the APG-81. The company highlights the cost efficiencies that could be gained from sharing costs for future mode development across a SABR-equipped F-16 fleet as well as the F-35.

New Baseline

Lockheed Martin vice president business development George Standridge said that the F-16V would be the new baseline, building on the current production Block 50/52 version and two previous upgrades: the F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) and the F-16C/D Common Configuration Improvement Program (CCIP). The company said it has developed an innovative solution to affordably retrofit the key AESA technology. This is a reference to the new mission computer, and a new high-speed data bus, bringing enhanced information to the pilot via a high-resolution color upgrade to the two existing F-16 displays, and addition of a large display on the cockpit pedestal. The F-16V also features a new data link that provides interoperability with the F-22 and the F-35.

Continued production of new F-16s is currently assured through 2015, thanks to recent orders from Morocco (delivering now), Egypt (2013), Oman (2014) and Iraq (2015). More than 4,400 Vipers have been built, with the landmark 4,500th due for rollout this year. There have been no fewer than 53 follow-on buys by 14 customers.

Tags: AircraftAviationJet aircraftJoint Electronics Type Designation SystemRadarStealth aircraftCarrier-based aircraftActive Electronically Scanned ArrayAN/APG-81


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## Windjammer

*
Something you don't see often, the rear cockpit of an F-16D.*

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## fatman17

sancho said:


> The problem is, that most countries include different things into the operational, but that costs is indeed pretty high for an F16, that normally is rated around $7500, Gripen around $5000, the F18SH around $10000, Rafale around $13000 according to figures from the Brazilian FX2 competition.



i know helos like Mi-17 and Pumas run around PKR 10,000/hour.


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## Jango

Is the sensitivity of sticks the Pilot and GIBS the same?

For example, in a AH-1F Cobra, the Weapons officer has a stick of higher sensitivity as he has less space to work with, it is in a ratio of 1:4. THat means that if the pilot at the back has to move his stick 4 inches (hypothetical) for moving left, the guy at the front has to move his stick one inch to get the same action. 

So how is it like in the Viper?
@Oscar, @gambit.

I am guessing it's the same since both sticks are on the side and FBW.


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## gambit

nuclearpak said:


> Is the sensitivity of sticks the Pilot and GIBS the same?
> 
> For example, in a AH-1F Cobra, the Weapons officer has a stick of higher sensitivity as he has less space to work with, it is in a ratio of 1:4. THat means that if the pilot at the back has to move his stick 4 inches (hypothetical) for moving left, the guy at the front has to move his stick one inch to get the same action.
> 
> So how is it like in the Viper?
> @Oscar, @gambit.
> 
> I am guessing it's the same since both sticks are on the side and FBW.


For the -16? There are no 'sensitivity' adjustment and I have been in both front and rear cockpits. Contrary to what the movies portrayed, on the -16, the stick is barely noticeable in movement and you would have to literally eyeball the thing to see any displacement.



Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Gut feeling tells me the costs include pre-flight checks by ground crew, fuel, and if course post flight/mission they do comprehensive checks. These aircrafts have so many moving parts (some which get hot!) so I guess costs include maintenance type shyt
> 
> *On higher tech fighters there are components that have to be changed after each flight, etc *
> 
> I'm not speaking from authority though .
> 
> Ground techies on PAF bases make nowhere near as much income and our flight hours are hell less than US for obvious reasons


Only with time dependent, meaning X flight hours passed, components. Else if the jet RTB 'Code One', you leave the thing alone other than check tires, oil, LOX, and assorted other 'consumables'.

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## Jango

gambit said:


> For the -16? There are no 'sensitivity' adjustment and I have been in both front and rear cockpits. Contrary to what the movies portrayed, on the -16, the stick is barely noticeable in movement and you would have to literally eyeball the thing to see any displacement.



Yeah, I was referring to the F-16. 

What about the other two seaters? Is it same across the fleet or does any aircraft have different sensitivity b/w both pilots?


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## gambit

nuclearpak said:


> Yeah, I was referring to the F-16.
> 
> *What about the other two seaters?* Is it same across the fleet or does any aircraft have different sensitivity b/w both pilots?


I know the F-111 does not have such 'sensitivity/travel' adjustment. The -111 is my 1st assignment in the USAF. The -111 is single cockpit but with dual controls (side by side) and the sticks are mechanically linked, meaning if one pilot move his stick, the other will displace as well. I have been inside the F-4 and F-15s, including dual cockpits for the -15, and I do not recall seeing any kind of 'sensitivity/travel' adjustment for limited customization for each pilot.

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## Windjammer




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## Kompromat

Bearice said:


> Musharaff's support to fight terrorists in Pakistan has strengthened PAF.



And it turned Pakistan into a fireball. Thanks to you.

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## MastanKhan

Aeronaut said:


> And it turned Pakistan into a fireball. Thanks to you.



You should have killed them when you had the oppurtunity. But the problem with people with good jobs, good comfortable life style, good living, good incomes, is that they don't really want to kill trouble makers. 

They are so secure in their welbeing---that they don't want to believe if there exists a problem---if it means that just by mere acknowledgement in time---it may bring a change in their existing life styles.

My man---you should have executed them when they were weak and on the run---.

Don't blame Musharraf----blame yourself.


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## fatman17

*30 Apr 1993 
PAF accepts first F-16 from Peace Gate IV order, but the aircraft are embargoed*.

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## Pinnacle

Any news about more f-16 block 52s ??
I heard Paf is going to buy 14 to 18 more new f-16s in 2013.. !!


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## Munir

danish falcon said:


> Any news about more f-16 block 52s ??
> I heard Paf is going to buy 14 to 18 more new f-16s in 2013.. !!



waiting for same...


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## Windjammer

*One of the original F-16B model delivered to PAF in mid-80s still looking immaculate even after 25 years in service.*

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## Munir

Windjammer: I have discussed this more then ones with those that maintain and fly these planes. These were our best assets for decades. We treated them like it was gold. We paid high price for spares but we never did not optimize these birds and it shows that these Block15 birds are by far the best maintained birds ever. If you compare them with even block40+ then you still be surprised which is older... But do not get me wrong. The non MLU block 15's are not good enough to go for battle with most of our adversaries on the Indian side. In that case JF17 is a lot more suited with BVR, superb glass cockpit and a lot more goodies I cannot disclose.

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## Windjammer

Munir said:


> Windjammer: I have discussed this more then ones with those that maintain and fly these planes. These were our best assets for decades. We treated them like it was gold. We paid high price for spares but we never did not optimize these birds and it shows that these Block15 birds are by far the best maintained birds ever. If you compare them with even block40+ then you still be surprised which is older... But do not get me wrong.* The non MLU block 15's are not good enough to go for battle with most of our adversaries on the Indian side.* In that case JF17 is a lot more suited with BVR, superb glass cockpit and a lot more goodies I cannot disclose.


Agreed with most of your points but i'm always dismayed by the highlighted part, why do we forget that the IAF is still operating aircraft which are less capable than our older Block-15s......it's not that all the battles would be fought against the likes of MKI....they still operate, Jaguars, MiGs and Mirages.....while no doubt the JF-17 will be the back bone but don't write off the PG...which after all was our first BVR capable fighter.

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## Munir

The issue is that with MKI does change the situation. It has range to loiter, attack and retreat. It does not have to come close to you. It can look far and shoot lots of BVR. You do not want to be pushed in anti BVR tactic. I think we agree on that.

But... You do not want to come in WVR combat with the other adversary. The whole idea of latest generation planes and weapons is that you keep out of sight (radar, visual) and destroy opponent. If you have to go near then you risk raises. Would you go against M2K? If it is between hills then ok but up there 8000+ meters I would not fight M2K in an F16 Block15. But I would not try to risk it against other planes. We do not have spares nor big numbers.

The PG is nice. But still the Mig21 which has its era. Its is limited in high altitude, range, load, radar, sensors, ecm etc. And I agree that you can attach an BVR but you do not want to launch it. People that know Mig21 do exactly know what happens. That is why I never overestimate the Bison upgrade (Mig21 Bis of IAF).

I Think that JF17 really altered the situation. It does not have more then 2 BVR but it delivers a punch to attackers and has all the needs to be a game changer. This is same for Block52 but we all know that strings are hindering the effective usage.

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## Argus Panoptes

Munir said:


> The issue is that with MKI does change the situation. It has range to loiter, attack and retreat. It does not have to come close to you. It can look far and shoot lots of BVR. You do not want to be pushed in anti BVR tactic. I think we agree on that.
> 
> But... You do not want to come in WVR combat with the other adversary. The whole idea of latest generation planes and weapons is that you keep out of sight (radar, visual) and destroy opponent. If you have to go near then you risk raises. Would you go against M2K? If it is between hills then ok but up there 8000+ meters I would not fight M2K in an F16 Block15. But I would not try to risk it against other planes. We do not have spares nor big numbers.
> 
> The PG is nice. But still the Mig21 which has its era. Its is limited in high altitude, range, load, radar, sensors, ecm etc. And I agree that you can attach an BVR but you do not want to launch it. People that know Mig21 do exactly know what happens. That is why I never overestimate the Bison upgrade (Mig21 Bis of IAF).
> 
> I Think that JF17 really altered the situation. It does not have more then 2 BVR but it delivers a punch to attackers and has all the needs to be a game changer. *This is same for Block52 but we all know that strings are hindering the effective usage.*



Yet these are the strings that many people simply deny exist.


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## Bratva

Argus Panoptes said:


> Yet these are the strings that many people simply deny exist.



Mjhay bhe Mansoor Ijaz say milwa do please, meri bhe bigri hui taqdeer badal jaye...

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## Argus Panoptes

mafiya said:


> Mjhay bhe Mansoor Ijaz say milwa do please, meri bhe bigri hui taqdeer badal jaye...



nevermind .....


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## Bratva

Argus Panoptes said:


> nevermind .....



Kio aesi umeed ki thi mai nai jo aisay nakaam hui..... nevermind


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## INDIAISM

Windjammer said:


> Agreed with most of your points but i'm always dismayed by the highlighted part,* why do we forget that the IAF is still operating aircraft which are less capable than our older Block-15s......it's not that all the battles would be fought against the likes of MKI....they still operate, Jaguars, MiGs and Mirages*.....while no doubt the JF-17 will be the back bone but don't write off the PG...which after all was our first BVR capable fighter.


It looks like you forgot that your adversary is operating Mig 29 of Mig series,Mirage 2000 of Mirage series which are on Par with F 16....and in this case one step ahead of PAF F16 Blk15 Fleet as IAF has been upgrading its fighter fleet on regular intervals....


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## Windjammer

INDIAISM said:


> It looks like you forgot that your adversary is operating Mig 29 of Mig series,Mirage 2000 of Mirage series which are on Par with F 16....and in this case one step ahead of PAF F16 Blk15 Fleet as IAF has been upgrading its fighter fleet on regular intervals....



Yes I'm well aware of that albeit the IAF still operates sufficient numbers of MiG-21s as well.
You will find that like the PAF F-16s, the Indian MiG-29s are currently going through an upgrade while Mirage-2000 upgrade has recently been approved....having some combat experience with the types also helps.

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## Munir

Windjammer said:


> Yes I'm well aware of that albeit the IAF still operates sufficient numbers of MiG-21s as well.
> You will find that like the PAF F-16s, the Indian MiG-29s are currently going through an upgrade while Mirage-2000 upgrade has recently been approved....having some combat experience with the types also helps.



I do not think that they will use mig21 with extremely short legs to counter anything more then base attack... Like we put our F16 in front they will push MKI in our face. You can try to look at the other planes but you lost the battle.

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## Windjammer

Munir said:


> I do not think that they will use mig21 with extremely short legs to counter anything more then base attack... Like we put our F16 in front they will push MKI in our face. You can try to look at the other planes but you lost the battle.



Coming back to your earlier assessment and loosing battle to a single aircraft kind, I have had a few detailed discussions with someone who participated as a RIO in the first Gulf war, his observations and comments do draw attention.....briefly he's of the opinion that unlike US and Russia or China, Pakistan and India share a common border hence very little reaction time to distinguish the incoming and out going flight sorties, the AWACS on both side of the border will be struggling to keep up with all the air traffic besides since India will never be able to have complete air superiority hence it will not be able to deploy a large platform like the MKI totally independently......on another note one can argue that on the sidelines of the 2007 Indra Dhanush Exercise, couple of Typhoon pilots made mincemeat of the MKI......where as the same Euro-fighters were knocked out by the PAF in another multi national exercise. !!

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## Nishan_101

Windjammer said:


> *One of the original F-16B model delivered to PAF in mid-80s still looking immaculate even after 25 years in service.*



Although it was minor mistakes that PAF done in the past like if they had negotiated with US in 2002 for getting there 28 F-16 Blcok-15s as well as ordering about 37-57 F-16 Blcok-52s(with 7 F-16DBlcok-52s just for CSS like top gun has) and also getting in talk for buying Venuezvellan 21 F-16 Blcok-15s and starting to upgrade all of them in Turkey from 2004 till 2008. So that I am sure we would have a quite a decent fleet and could have replace some 50 Mirages from frontline in to spares...

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## INDIAISM

Windjammer said:


> Yes I'm well aware of that albeit the IAF still operates sufficient numbers of MiG-21s as well.
> You will find that like the PAF F-16s, the Indian MiG-29s are currently going through an upgrade while Mirage-2000 upgrade has recently been approved....*having some combat experience with the types also helps.*


But that doesn't make it less capable then F-16..

Secondly, IAF Pilot also have alot of experience with F-16...

Thirdly, the total number of these platform in IaF only is around 120 and on the other hand PAF operate 77 F-16....at the end number does make a difference....

Forthly,If IAF operates sufficient amount of Mig21's then you should also see that large part of PAF jet inventory consist of F-7,Mirage III & V....


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## SQ8

INDIAISM said:


> But that doesn't make it less capable then F-16..
> 
> Secondly, IAF Pilot also have alot of experience with F-16...
> 
> Thirdly, the total number of these platform in IaF only is around 120 and on the other hand PAF operate 77 F-16....at the end number does make a difference....
> 
> Forthly,If IAF operates sufficient amount of Mig21's then you should also see that large part of PAF jet inventory consist of F-7,Mirage III & V....



It's capability is determined as its input into the overall system and that is a discussion for another thread.
Please confine your comments on PAF F-16 developments. This is not a thread for lengthy versus discussions.


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## nomi007



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## Windjammer

*Courtesy : As titled.*

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> *Courtesy : As titled.*



They've basically reskinned the Greek Block-52 that comes with BMS and hence suffer with the loadout issues.
Something that's pretty easy to overcome in this sim.. and you get to keep accurate loadout.
However, BMS is a more accurate flight sim.

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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> They've basically reskinned the Greek Block-52 that comes with BMS and hence suffer with the loadout issues.
> Something that's pretty easy to overcome in this sim.. and you get to keep accurate loadout.
> However, BMS is a more accurate flight sim.








What are the missiles on the wing-tip. ??


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> What are the missiles on the wing-tip. ??



AIM-2000 IRIS-T


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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> AIM-2000 IRIS-T



Does PAF deploy them or is it only the Greeks.


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Does PAF deploy them or is it only the Greeks.



The HAF and Klu operate the AIM-2000

Also.. somebody fix this article on wikipedia.. looks like an Indian editing job... where users are listed it states that the Afghan AF shot down the F-16(which was a fratricide)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16_Fighting_Falcon#Pakistan

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## Cool_Soldier

Nice pic of F16 in PAF. I have seen some combination of F16 in different airfoces of the world including PAF.....see here...F16 PICS


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## Yzd Khalifa

Folks does anyone know how many F-16s does PAF has? I would like to hear an accurate answer.


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## Luftwaffe

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Folks does anyone know how many F-16s does PAF has? I would like to hear an accurate answer.



Fleet of 63.

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## Munir

http://s681.photobucket.com/user/stretch315/media/F-16AMJ-0022W3H3804_zpse04e3636.jpg

The wingtip amraam is a live round. The amraam under the wing is just a body (three blue roundels).


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## Yzd Khalifa

Luftwaffe said:


> Fleet of 63.



Is the PAF going to order more for the coming years? 

Thanks


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## Armstrong

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Is the PAF going to order more for the coming years?
> 
> Thanks



Probably not....we're broke !


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## fatman17

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Folks does anyone know how many F-16s does PAF has? I would like to hear an accurate answer.



32 F-16A/B
14 F-16A/B
18 F-16C/D
64
1-attrition
63
14 F-16A/B yet to be delivered - approved by Bush Admin.

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> 32 F-16A/B
> 14 F-16A/B
> 18 F-16C/D
> 64
> 1-attrition
> 63
> 14 F-16A/B yet to be delivered - approved by Bush Admin.



Somewhat dismayed, since PAF deploys around 16 aircraft in each unit, with around 64 F-16s in service shouldn't we have at least 4 Squadrons standing rather than the 3. ?? !!

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## Munir

The non Block 52 are shared by the former F16 squadrons at Sargodha. Sometimes planes switch between the two squadrons. So it is not plane related at all.


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## Windjammer

*
Guys, i have noticed some PAF F-16s have a piece of paper stuck inside the rear canopy, is it just to block the sun, even the new Block-52D has one. *
@Oscar.Please advise.

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## Windjammer



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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> *
> Guys, i have noticed some PAF F-16s have a piece of paper stuck inside the rear canopy, is it just to block the sun, even the new Block-52D has one. *
> @Oscar.Please advise.



I dont think it is stuck at any time.. maybe just a move by the rear seater for fun or perhaps otherwise.
It may be a case of inter squadron rivalry going on.

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## TOPGUN

Maybe PAF should have gotten the vipers with tinted canopies .. I know we have a few older blocks with them .

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## Sinnerman108

The sun's position with respect to the aircraft is not constant, so the paper can not be for that reason.

My guess is it is there for checking notes.

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## gambit

Windjammer said:


> *
> Guys, i have noticed some PAF F-16s have a piece of paper stuck inside the rear canopy, is it just to block the sun, even the new Block-52D has one. *
> @Oscar.Please advise.


In this case, the gent in the rear cockpit is either a professional photog or a pilot who is an accomplished amateur photog himself who understand the unique demands of aerial photography. Usually it is brown paper with double sided sticky tape to reduce internal reflections off the instruments to produce clear photographs of the instruments themselves, and often for instructional purposes of what a pilot should see of the instruments at certain conditions of flight. 

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/19040858


> A few tips for shooting inside aircraft.
> 
> *Wear black to avoid reflections.
> Consider a rubber lens shade if you need to shoot aerials through the glass. *
> Use a few bodies to avoid changing lenses.
> 
> Don&#8217;t look through the viewfinder too long or you&#8217;ll be reaching for the barf bag.
> 
> On the lens&#8230; a 12-24 would be a good option or you could use the 10.5 fisheye and de-fish it with capture. For larger commercial aircraft the 12-24 should do&#8230; The small planes might need a little wider.



Also good for self portraits because the goggles and assorted styles of visors will reflect and prevent your adoring G/F and proud family from seeing your oh-so-macho visage in the cockpit.

This photography problem became prominent in WW II with the advent of enclosed cockpits, even when the bubble canopy was not in use.

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## Nishan_101

Windjammer said:


>



It was better for PAF to negotiated with US in 2002 in getting back 28 F-16s back along with buying with US permission 21 Venuezvella F-16s and upgrading all over them in \Turkey and also place an order for 57 New ones..


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## Windjammer



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## DANGER-ZONE

Nishan_101 said:


> *It was better for PAF to negotiate*d with US in 2002 in getting back 28 F-16s back along with buying with US permission 21 Venuezvella F-16s and upgrading all over them in \Turkey and also *place an order for 57 New ones*..

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## Edevelop



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## Pinnacle

cb4 said:


>



I am in love with the f-16d blk 52 design...

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## ejaz007

Nishan_101 said:


> It was better for PAF to negotiated with US in 2002 in getting back 28 F-16s back along with buying with US permission 21 Venuezvella F-16s and upgrading all over them in \Turkey and also place an order for 57 New ones..



As part of the deal that was signed in 2006 Pakistan shall receive all embargoed F-16's. We already have received 14 by now.

Ever wondered why we ordered 60 MLU kits when we only had around 32 fighters.

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## Pinnacle

ejaz007 said:


> Ever wondered why we ordered 60 MLU kits when we only had around 32 fighters.


May be F-16 deal with norway is on the way..


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## Munir

Jordan I think. Norway is not the option since they need JSF first.


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## ejaz007

danish falcon said:


> May be F-16 deal with norway is on the way..



PAF expects 14 more EDA F-16's from USA.

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## Donatello

ejaz007 said:


> PAF expects 14 more EDA F-16's from USA.



They are dependent on when the US military releases them and if the airframes are in shape worthy to fly for another decade or two.


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## Pinnacle

ejaz007 said:


> PAF expects 14 more EDA F-16's from USA.


Will those 14 F-16s be free of cost or they will charge them.. ??


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## Last Hope

danish falcon said:


> Will those 14 F-16s be free of cost or they will charge them.. ??


They've already been paid for.

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## fatman17

danish falcon said:


> Will those 14 F-16s be free of cost or they will charge them.. ??



we pay for the MLU



Donatello said:


> They are dependent on when the US military releases them and if the airframes are in shape worthy to fly for another decade or two.



MLU will fix that problem. the PAF is wrong in insisting for the original 14 F-16's embargoes and subsequently married off to the USN who are reluctant to release them unlike the USAF which did. the PAF should choose the best available airframes from the EDA stocks and move on with the MLU. the kits are already purchased.

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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day*
&#8220;A thunderstorm is nature's way of saying, Up yours.&#8221; 
-- Len Morgan

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## Najam Khan

Al-Saqoor II

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## truthseeker2010

This F-16A seemed to make a low approach but then set down on its center drop tank and skid down the runway! The aircraft aborted and pulled into a climb, went around and landed safely.

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## fatman17

*JHMCS: Fighter Pilots&#8217; &#8220;Look & Shoot&#8221; Helmets Changing Aerial Warfare*

May 24, 2013 12:28 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff Latest update [?]


JHMCS
Customers that DID has been able to verify include:

F-15s: USAF, US Air National Guard, South Korea (F-15K).
F-16s: USAF, Chile, Denmark, Greece, Iraq (F-16IQ block 52), The Netherlands, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Taiwan (being upgraded to near Block 60), Turkey. UAE (F-16E/F) confirmed via a social media search.
F/A-18 A-D: Australia, Canada, Finland, Switzerland. USMC and USN... {click to expand +}


JHMCS
Customers that DID has been able to verify include:
F-15s: USAF, US Air National Guard, South Korea (F-15K).
F-16s: USAF, Chile, Denmark, Greece, Iraq (F-16IQ block 52), The Netherlands, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Taiwan (being upgraded to near Block 60), Turkey. UAE (F-16E/F) confirmed via a social media search.
F/A-18 A-D: Australia, Canada, Finland, Switzerland. USMC and USN presumed.
F/A-18 E/F: US Navy; Australia likely.
Foreign Military Sale requests that haven&#8217;t yet turned into verified customers include:
F-15s: Singapore (F-15SG, possible but could also use DASH), Saudi Arabia (F-15SA, not delivered yet).
F-16s: Morocco (F-16C/D block 52).
F/A-18s: Kuwait (F/A-18C), Malaysia (F/A-18D, modifications underway).
May 17/13: Support. Vision Systems International LLC in Fort Worth, TX receives a maximum $31.1 million firm fixed price, sole source contract for various aircraft spare parts, new aircraft installs, and support equipment. 
Work will be performed in Texas, Oregon, and Israel, and is scheduled to be complete by Jan 31/15. The contract covers the US Navy, USAF, Belgium (F-16 MLU), Iraq (F-16IQ), Kuwait (F/A-18C/D), Taiwan (F-16+), and Chile (F-16 var). FY 2014 through 2015 Foreign Military Sales funds will be used, alongside USAF and US Navy budgets. The contracting will be managed by the Defense Logistics Agency Aviation at Robins AFB, GA (SPRWA1-11-D-0007-0005). 
{^}
The above update is a recent abstract from our full article, itself part of our subscription offering. Keep reading to know more.

(click to view larger)In the 1970s, fighter aircraft began to appear with Head-Up Displays (HUD) that projected key information, targeting crosshairs etc. onto a seemingly clear piece of glass. HUDs allowed pilots to keep their eyes in the sky, instead of looking down at their instruments. In the 1990s, another innovation appeared: helmet-mounted displays (HMDs) put the HUD inside the pilot&#8217;s helmet, providing this information even when the pilot wasn&#8217;t looking straight ahead. The Israelis were already pioneering a system called DASH (Display And Sight Helmet) when a set of former East German MiG-29s, equipped with Soviet HMDs, slaughtered USAF F-16s in NATO exercises. Suddenly, helmet-mounted displays became must-haves for modern fighters &#8211; and a key partnership positioned Elbit to take DASH to the next level.

This DID Spotlight article offers insights into the rocky past, successful present, and competitive future of a program that has experienced its share of snags and controversy &#8211; but went on to become the #1 helmet-mounted sight in the world. It also details the game-changing effects of Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems on air combat, its production sets and known customers, and all contracts since full-rate production began.


Displaying 429 of 8,932 words (about 23 pages)

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> *JHMCS: Fighter Pilots&#8217; &#8220;Look & Shoot&#8221; Helmets Changing Aerial Warfare*
> 
> May 24, 2013 12:28 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff Latest update [?]
> 
> 
> JHMCS
> Customers that DID has been able to verify include:
> 
> F-15s: USAF, US Air National Guard, South Korea (F-15K).
> F-16s: USAF, Chile, Denmark, Greece, Iraq (F-16IQ block 52), The Netherlands, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Taiwan (being upgraded to near Block 60), Turkey. UAE (F-16E/F) confirmed via a social media search.
> F/A-18 A-D: Australia, Canada, Finland, Switzerland. USMC and USN... {click to expand +}
> 
> 
> JHMCS
> Customers that DID has been able to verify include:
> F-15s: USAF, US Air National Guard, South Korea (F-15K).
> F-16s: USAF, Chile, Denmark, Greece, Iraq (F-16IQ block 52), The Netherlands, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Taiwan (being upgraded to near Block 60), Turkey. UAE (F-16E/F) confirmed via a social media search.
> F/A-18 A-D: Australia, Canada, Finland, Switzerland. USMC and USN presumed.
> F/A-18 E/F: US Navy; Australia likely.
> Foreign Military Sale requests that haven&#8217;t yet turned into verified customers include:
> F-15s: Singapore (F-15SG, possible but could also use DASH), Saudi Arabia (F-15SA, not delivered yet).
> F-16s: Morocco (F-16C/D block 52).
> F/A-18s: Kuwait (F/A-18C), Malaysia (F/A-18D, modifications underway).
> May 17/13: Support. Vision Systems International LLC in Fort Worth, TX receives a maximum $31.1 million firm fixed price, sole source contract for various aircraft spare parts, new aircraft installs, and support equipment.
> Work will be performed in Texas, Oregon, and Israel, and is scheduled to be complete by Jan 31/15. The contract covers the US Navy, USAF, Belgium (F-16 MLU), Iraq (F-16IQ), Kuwait (F/A-18C/D), Taiwan (F-16+), and Chile (F-16 var). FY 2014 through 2015 Foreign Military Sales funds will be used, alongside USAF and US Navy budgets. The contracting will be managed by the Defense Logistics Agency Aviation at Robins AFB, GA (SPRWA1-11-D-0007-0005).
> {^}
> The above update is a recent abstract from our full article, itself part of our subscription offering. Keep reading to know more.
> 
> (click to view larger)In the 1970s, fighter aircraft began to appear with Head-Up Displays (HUD) that projected key information, targeting crosshairs etc. onto a seemingly clear piece of glass. HUDs allowed pilots to keep their eyes in the sky, instead of looking down at their instruments. In the 1990s, another innovation appeared: helmet-mounted displays (HMDs) put the HUD inside the pilot&#8217;s helmet, providing this information even when the pilot wasn&#8217;t looking straight ahead. The Israelis were already pioneering a system called DASH (Display And Sight Helmet) when a set of former East German MiG-29s, equipped with Soviet HMDs, slaughtered USAF F-16s in NATO exercises. Suddenly, helmet-mounted displays became must-haves for modern fighters &#8211; and a key partnership positioned Elbit to take DASH to the next level.
> 
> This DID Spotlight article offers insights into the rocky past, successful present, and competitive future of a program that has experienced its share of snags and controversy &#8211; but went on to become the #1 helmet-mounted sight in the world. It also details the game-changing effects of Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems on air combat, its production sets and known customers, and all contracts since full-rate production began.
> 
> 
> Displaying 429 of 8,932 words (about 23 pages)



Are we going to use these with our F-16 MLU batch as well? Have studied the system and it is really impressive, i hope we do get these operation with the MLU aircraft as well


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## Jango

Not related to PAF but still, the Taiwanese F-16 are being labelled as near Block 60 in the article fatman provided, what does that mean? What upgrades are they undergoing?


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## Luftwaffe

nuclearpak said:


> Not related to PAF but still, the Taiwanese F-16 are being labelled as near Block 60 in the article fatman provided, what does that mean? What upgrades are they undergoing?



Lockheed Martin · Lockheed Martin Awarded Upgrade Contract For 145 F-16s Of The Republic Of China Air Force

Teaching an Old Dog New Tricks: Taiwan&#8217;s F-16 Upgrade | The Diplomat

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## Pinnacle

Arsalan said:


> Are we going to use these with our F-16 MLU batch as well? Have studied the system and it is really impressive, i hope we do get these operation with the MLU aircraft as well


Yeah.. We can use JHMCS with our F-16 MLUs according to contract... 
Analyzing the Pakistan Air Force's F-16 Mid Life Update (MLU) program | Terminal X

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## Najam Khan

Arsalan said:


> *Are we going to use these with our F-16 MLU batch as well? *Have studied the system and it is really impressive, i hope we do get these operation with the MLU aircraft as well



Oh Yes!

Official MLU unit patch.

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## alimobin memon

What jammer pods do the PAF f16 carry ?


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## Arefin Hai




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## Windjammer

Have you guys noticed that the PAF Block-52 have a fairing under the intake.
Is it a RWR or some other communication antenna. ??

Also apparent under this RSAF F-16D.

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## Pinnacle

Why did PAF get ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM)... ????
were they not offered to Pakistan.. ???


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> Have you guys noticed that the PAF Block-52 have a fairing under the intake.
> Is it a RWR or some other communication antenna. ??
> 
> Also apparent under this RSAF F-16D.



A better image of it on the PAF F-16...

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## Bratva

danish falcon said:


> Why did PAF get ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM)... ????
> were they not offered to Pakistan.. ???



American senate specifically blocked DRFM sale to Pakistan

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## bigest

yes you are right


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## Pinnacle

mafiya said:


> American senate specifically blocked DRFM sale to Pakistan



Okay. Now what jamming pod do our new F-16 blk 52 use.. ?? Or do they have jamming capability now. ???


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## bigzgvr4

danish falcon said:


> Okay. Now what jamming pod do our new F-16 blk 52 use.. ?? Or do they have jamming capability now. ???



The only pod That i know as far as Paf and f-16 are Sniper Pod which is a targeting POD


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## Pinnacle

It means no jamming capability in paf f-16 blk 52.. ???
Sir @fatman17 @nuclearpak


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## Jango

danish falcon said:


> It means no jamming capability in paf f-16 blk 52.. ???
> Sir @fatman17 @nuclearpak



No idea...but here is a PS image...made by our very own Najam Khan, so if there is a PS< it should mean that there is the real thing somewhere in store!

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## Pinnacle

nuclearpak said:


> No idea...but here is a PS image...made by our very own Najam Khan, so if there is a PS< it should mean that there is the real thing somewhere in store!


Sir is this F-16 mlu ???


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## Jango

danish falcon said:


> Sir is this F-16 mlu ???



No idea...fatman or Oscar can further elaborate.

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## Bratva

danish falcon said:


> It means no jamming capability in paf f-16 blk 52.. ???
> Sir @fatman17 @nuclearpak



DRFM means system has the capability to store and replicate the incoming enemy signals and propogating replicated signal towards source radar thus giving him the false idea of our location (Spoofing the signals). We don't have this capability. Yet we have jamming capability, which is we can jam incoming signals and not let them return to source radar. Signal cancellation

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## Last Hope

danish falcon said:


> It means no jamming capability in paf f-16 blk 52.. ???
> Sir @fatman17 @nuclearpak



All F-16D Block 52 have the jamming capability. The spine of the aircraft carries these avionics.

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## Imran Khan

whats going on here   it was on PAF bird in 2007 Anatolian eagles 


look down

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## Imran Khan

danish falcon said:


> Sir is this F-16 mlu ???



no its not MLU they use this pod long before too

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## Imran Khan



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## Goraya Pakistani

Great!!!!! PAF is getting more and more stronger.


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## Pinnacle

Last Hope said:


> All F-16D Block 52 have the jamming capability. The spine of the aircraft carries these avionics.



Sir will u plz explain why this capability only in F-16D ??? Why not in F-16C.. ??
Thanx in advance...


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## Imran Khan

danish falcon said:


> Sir will u plz explain why this capability only in F-16D ??? Why not in F-16C.. ??
> Thanx in advance...



this becuse C have so much place to keep these avionics and D have to arrange this place for wingman seat . its israeli invention they did it first then it become LM standard

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## Pinnacle

Imran Khan said:


> this becuse C have so much place to keep these avionics and D have to arrange this place for wingman seat . its israeli invention they did it first then it become LM standard


I think that is why they only selected F-16D to modernize it to F-16i. I am really jealoused of the beauty of F-16i Sufa.. just kidding.
It is really a beauty in terms of avionics and in deadly look..


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## Pinnacle

Imran Khan said:


> this becuse C have so much place to keep these avionics and D have to arrange this place for wingman seat . its israeli invention they did it first then it become LM standard


I think that is why they only selected F-16D to modernize it to F-16i. I am really jealoused of the beauty of F-16i Sufa.. just kidding.
It is really a beauty in terms of avionics and in deadly look..


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## Cruizer

Pak Fyzaya Paindabad.


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## Munir

Imran Khan said:


> whats going on here   it was on PAF bird in 2007 Anatolian eagles
> 
> 
> look down



It is to attach wingpylons.


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## TaimiKhan

Munir said:


> It is to attach wingpylons.



I think he is referring to the EW pod which is visible on the centre pylon.

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## alimobin memon

All F16 have Jammer pods block 15 with lil old one ... My Question is what is it using ? the name .


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## Windjammer

alimobin memon said:


> All F16 have Jammer pods block 15 with lil old one ... My Question is what is it using ? the name .



I believe it's called, ALQ-131 electronic countermeasures pod

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## Windjammer

*
The Men And The Machine*

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## Bratva

How fuel travels from drop tank to inside aircraft? Drop tank is screwed to hard point, where is pipe which takes fuel inside the aircraft?


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## Argus Panoptes

mafiya said:


> How fuel travels from drop tank to inside aircraft? Drop tank is screwed to hard point, where is pipe which takes fuel inside the aircraft?




Marvin Engineering F-16 Fuel Pylon

*
F-16 Fuel Pylon*

*The Pylon Assembly consists of mechanical, electrical, fuel transfer, and venting connections* between the F-16 Aircraft and the 370 gallon fuel tank. Over 2800 Pylon Assemblies have been produced and delivered.

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## Liquidmetal

maybe I am doing it wrong, but has anyone got an article on PAF's participation at red flag and in particular the performance?


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## shanixee

danish falcon said:


> I think that is why they only selected F-16D to modernize it to F-16i. I am really jealoused of the beauty of F-16i Sufa.. just kidding.
> It is really a beauty in terms of avionics and in deadly look..



ITS A BEAUTY..A REAL BEAST..

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## fatman17

Liquidmetal said:


> maybe I am doing it wrong, but has anyone got an article on PAF's participation at red flag and in particular the performance?



search the thread mate - its history


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## Windjammer

*
How is this for an over 20 year old airframe. *

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## Argus Panoptes

Windjammer said:


> *
> How is this for an over 20 year old airframe. *




Lagta hey abhi abhi showroom sey nikalwaya hey, bilkul zero meter aur seatoon per plastic sameth!


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## Windjammer

Argus Panoptes said:


> Lagta hey abhi abhi showroom sey nikalwaya hey, bilkul zero meter aur seatoon per plastic sameth!



Driver bi shaheed company ka hey.

Kisi ney such bola hey.......ghar ki murghi daal barabur. !!

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## Last Hope

Argus Panoptes said:


> Lagta hey abhi abhi showroom sey nikalwaya hey, bilkul zero meter aur seatoon per plastic sameth!



Your post answers itself for the service quality of the Aeronautical complex and by the ground crew/airmen.

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## shanixee

Windjammer said:


> *
> How is this for an over 20 year old airframe. *



No doubt F 16 is a graceful fighter...I consider its design as most successful in fighter history

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## Liquidmetal

fatman17 said:


> search the thread mate - its history



if I had found the thread I would not have asked, if you know where it is the n give me a link, if you don't mind.


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## umair86pk

Windjammer said:


> *
> How is this for an over 20 year old airframe. *



PAF F-16s have much less flying hours on them than most of the Vipers did as in the 90s they were used very carefully due spare parts shortages they may be 30 years old but have a lot of life left in them and with MLU they will be virtually rebuilt new airframes.

With out a doubt the pinnacle of modern multirole fighter.

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## Last Hope

JF-17 is to make PAF's frontline multirole fighter aircraft. This responsibility is also shared by F-16s in a particular sector, which are C/D varient. You should compare two of the leading aircraft sharing greatest responsibility.
JF-17 defeated F-16A/B in a dogfight with a large margin and are compared with F-16 Block 40. Comparing with older models is just going to give you a statistically wrong figures.

For example you compare JF-17 with F-16A. Can F-16A fire BVR weapon? No, it cannot. Many of the factors don't coincide to give a logical result. F-16C can fire a AIM-120 and JF-17 can fire a SD-10. This makes a fair comparison, for example radar range or the number of bogeys it can track at a time and distance.


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## fatman17

Last Hope said:


> JF-17 is to make PAF's frontline multirole fighter aircraft. This responsibility is also shared by F-16s in a particular sector, which are C/D varient. You should compare two of the leading aircraft sharing greatest responsibility.
> JF-17 defeated F-16A/B in a dogfight with a large margin and are compared with F-16 Block 40. Comparing with older models is just going to give you a statistically wrong figures.
> 
> For example you compare JF-17 with F-16A. Can F-16A fire BVR weapon? No, it cannot. Many of the factors don't coincide to give a logical result. F-16C can fire a AIM-120 and JF-17 can fire a SD-10. This makes a fair comparison, for example radar range or the number of bogeys it can track at a time and distance.



what makes you think that a F-16A cannot fire BVR weapons. just bcuz the US did not release the weapon system to PAF at that time, dosnt mean an F-16A cannot fire BVR weapons

the AIM-7 Sparrow was compatible with PAF F-16s but not released by the US

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## gambit

fatman17 said:


> *what makes you think that a F-16A cannot fire BVR weapons.* just bcuz the US did not release the weapon system to PAF at that time, dosnt mean an F-16A cannot fire BVR weapons
> 
> the AIM-7 Sparrow was compatible with PAF F-16s but not released by the US


Feasibly? Yes. But technically? I doubt it would be worthwhile. The A's avionics are analog. A BVR missile is essentially blind unless and/or until it is guided and most have digital avionics, smaller and more compact, making the missile more sophisticated. The translation can be done but not sure if anyone is willing to pay the investment.

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## razgriz19

gambit said:


> Feasibly? Yes. But technically? I doubt it would be worthwhile. The A's avionics are analog. A BVR missile is essentially blind unless and/or until it is guided and most have digital avionics, smaller and more compact, making the missile more sophisticated. The translation can be done but not sure if anyone is willing to pay the investment.



Well I guess that's why PAF has decided to upgrade them. We have quite a lot of AMRAAMs considering the deliveries went without a hitch.


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## fatman17

gambit said:


> Feasibly? Yes. But technically? I doubt it would be worthwhile. The A's avionics are analog. A BVR missile is essentially blind unless and/or until it is guided and most have digital avionics, smaller and more compact, making the missile more sophisticated. The translation can be done but not sure if anyone is willing to pay the investment.



and that's why the MLU to blk-40



umair86pk said:


> PAF F-16s have much less flying hours on them than most of the Vipers did as in the 90s they were used very carefully due spare parts shortages they may be 30 years old but have a lot of life left in them and with MLU they will be virtually rebuilt new airframes.
> 
> With out a doubt the pinnacle of modern multirole fighter.



get better with the MLU



Liquidmetal said:


> if I had found the thread I would not have asked, if you know where it is the n give me a link, if you don't mind.



its either F-16 discussions or PAF participates with other airforces or finally PAF at red flag


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Last Hope said:


> JF-17 is to make PAF's frontline multirole fighter aircraft. This responsibility is also shared by F-16s in a particular sector, which are C/D varient. You should compare two of the leading aircraft sharing greatest responsibility.
> *JF-17 defeated F-16A/B in a dogfight with a large margin and are compared with F-16 Block 40.* Comparing with older models is just going to give you a statistically wrong figures.
> 
> For example you compare JF-17 with F-16A. Can F-16A fire BVR weapon? No, it cannot. Many of the factors don't coincide to give a logical result. F-16C can fire a AIM-120 and JF-17 can fire a SD-10. This makes a fair comparison, for example radar range or the number of bogeys it can track at a time and distance.



can you tell that dog-fight scenario between f-16 & jf-17 in more detail , as i wish to know the story behind that ... 
it would be so nice of you if you could enlighten the rest of us with your first-hand knowledge about that dogfight exercising drills of our P.a.f. ...


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## Windjammer

gambit said:


> Feasibly? Yes. But technically? I doubt it would be worthwhile. The A's avionics are analog. A BVR missile is essentially blind unless and/or until it is guided and most have digital avionics, smaller and more compact, making the missile more sophisticated. The translation can be done but not sure if anyone is willing to pay the investment.









These MLU F-16A for the PAF are now equipped with AIM-120 Amraam BVR rounds.

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## gambit

Windjammer said:


> These MLU F-16A for the PAF are now equipped with AIM-120 Amraam BVR rounds.


Then I stand corrected. Guess someone considered the mod economically worthwhile.

Back in '87 when I was transferred to the F-16 (from F-111), MacDill was an F-16 training base, Luke was the other, and MacD was on the tail end of conversion from A/B to C/D. The plan was to either mothball the A/B or sell them to overseas customers, after some National Guards and Reserve allocations, of course. We never had any plan to do any mods to the A/B because the digital C/D avionics were much more amenable to modifications, hardware and software, and when mod proposals are accepted, the mods would be quicker to implement fleet wide, and that includes global partners.

But I guess necessities compelled changes...

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## Liquidmetal

Windjammer said:


> These MLU F-16A for the PAF are now equipped with AIM-120 Amraam BVR rounds.



What is the range of the amraams supplied to Pakistan? Or do we have mixed inventory of older and newer versions and do we have the latest iteration? Thanks.

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## Imran Khan

Liquidmetal said:


> What is the range of the amraams supplied to Pakistan? Or do we have mixed inventory of older and newer versions and do we have the latest iteration? Thanks.



we have only one type AIM-120C5 and its range is AIM-120C-5 >105 km (>57 nm)

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## Liquidmetal

Imran Khan said:


> we have only one type AIM-120C5 and its range is AIM-120C-5 >105 km (>57 nm)



Please educate me, but to me that seems a bit on the low side, considering the Indians have BVR of much longer ranges esp those mated to their SU30 radars. Is the C8 available to PAF if we decide to purchase this version?


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## Imran Khan

Liquidmetal said:


> Please educate me, but to me that seems a bit on the low side, considering the Indians have BVR of much longer ranges esp those mated to their SU30 radars. Is the C8 available to PAF if we decide to purchase this version?



that what we have sir as per September 30th, 2006 the contract was signed between the Pakistani and US government . no matter you like it or not

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## Liquidmetal

Imran Khan said:


> that what we have sir as per September 30th, 2006 the contract was signed between the Pakistani and US government . no matter you like it or not



Is there a chance that PAF may purchase the C8 version in the near future and will the US sell them to us?


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## Armstrong

Liquidmetal said:


> Is there a chance that PAF may purchase the C8 version in the near future and will the US sell them to us?



Dude the average width of Pakistan is 300 kms, most of our Forward Operating Basis are a few minutes off the border & such is the case with the Indian FOBs - Keeping that in mind shouldn't a BVR with 100+km range be more than adequate for us ?

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## Arsalan

Armstrong said:


> Dude the average width of Pakistan is 300 kms, most of our Forward Operating Basis are a few minutes off the border & such is the case with the Indian FOBs - Keeping that in mind shouldn't a BVR with 100+km range be more than adequate for us ?



It is, it meet our technical requirements so no need to dig extra deep into pocket 
Also with Pakistan's future plan (more JF-17 latest blocks and FC-20 and whenever we get fifth generation fighter plans also involving China) SD-10 is going to be the future for PAF, which, by many sources is claimed to be on par with AIM-120C5. As time goes on we might see some developments in that as well.

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## Liquidmetal

Arsalan said:


> It is, it meet our technical requirements so no need to dig extra deep into pocket
> Also with Pakistan's future plan (more JF-17 latest blocks and FC-20 and whenever we get fifth generation fighter plans also involving China) SD-10 is going to be the future for PAF, which, by many sources is claimed to be on par with AIM-120C5. As time goes on we might see some developments in that as well.



Thank you to so many knowledgeable people for your valuable contribution, may I ask what is the status regarding the SD-10 integration with the JFT? I think there is considerable doubt regarding the integration of this missile. So what is the latest news? have we made progress on this phase of the jft's development?


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## Arsalan

Liquidmetal said:


> Thank you to so many knowledgeable people for your valuable contribution, may I ask what is the status regarding the SD-10 integration with the JFT? I think there is considerable doubt regarding the integration of this missile. So what is the latest news? have we made progress on this phase of the jft's development?



Currently Jf-17 is already using a Chinese radar and avionics pack so there is no real issue with SD-10 integration, nothing i know of!
Jf-17 have been seen flying with SD-10 on number of occasions and also the prototype planes have been spotted with SD-10.
details can be found or discussed at:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/248822-jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-5-a.html

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## Tacticool

What is the status of mlu process in turkey?


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## krash

gambit said:


> Then I stand corrected. Guess someone considered the mod economically worthwhile.
> 
> Back in '87 when I was transferred to the F-16 (from F-111), MacDill was an F-16 training base, Luke was the other, and MacD was on the tail end of conversion from A/B to C/D. The plan was to either mothball the A/B or sell them to overseas customers, after some National Guards and Reserve allocations, of course. We never had any plan to do any mods to the A/B because the digital C/D avionics were much more amenable to modifications, hardware and software, and when mod proposals are accepted, the mods would be quicker to implement fleet wide, and that includes global partners.
> 
> But I guess necessities compelled changes...



In addition to Pakistan, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Norway, Portugal and Jordan have also gone with it. The US had also planned to go with it but later on backed out, maybe for the reasons you stated.


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## Arsalan

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> What is the status of mlu process in turkey?



As per my knowledge, we have got back 6 F-16 Blk 15 after successful MLU by TAI, Turkey. These 6 are in addition to the initial 3 planes that were upgraded in USA. This means PAF currently have 9 MLU F-16 with them with the next batch in Turkey under process.

The Details of at least five MLU Air crafts is as below"
At the moment there are 5 MLU F-16s housed at Shahbaz AB which are as following :

1. F-16BM Serial no. 82603
2. F-16AM Serial no. 84713
3. F-16AM Serial no. 84718
4. F-16BM Serial no. 84608
5. F-16BM Serial no. 90617

Images at:
Analyzing the Pakistan Air Force's F-16 Mid Life Update (MLU) program | Terminal X

Will prefer a confirmation/update by Sir [MENTION] fatman17
[/MENTION]

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## Najam Khan

As of today 12 MLUs are flying with PAF. So far the MLU modernization project is going on track (funds allocated in 2008) and hopefully it will end by late 2014/early 2015.

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## nomi007

not pakistan but cool image

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## AUSTERLITZ

Liquidmetal said:


> Please educate me, but to me that seems a bit on the low side, considering the Indians have BVR of much longer ranges esp those mated to their SU30 radars. Is the C8 available to PAF if we decide to purchase this version?



Thats superb nominal range for an ACTIVE fire and forget BVR.We have r-27ET variants but they are infrared homing or semi active, less effective thAn active rounds.Our Active round the r-77 has range of 80-90km nominally.
In any case this nominal range means nothing,most BVr's will miss completely at max range and this range is assuming both aircraft are head on.In tail chase ranges are reduced drastically for all missiles.The real figure that matters is the 'no escape zone' and that always classified.That along with elctronic endurance of missile.This missile is the best BVR in the subcontinent atm,till rafale comes with meteor.Yes it will still be at a disadvantage against mki launching r-27Ets at around 130km.But again max range low effcetiveness and not active rounds so less Kill probability.You could say in a BVR fight this and mkis RCS are the 2 equalizers that offset f-16s weakness in radar and payload.In WVR things are bad as Sukhoi has TVC,more TW ratio,better AoA and most important HMS/High off boresight r-73 combo.To offset this i heard pak looking to equip its fighters with high off boresight missiles like european iris-t or south african/brazilian JV A-darter as america won't sell aim-9x,russia won't sell r-73 and israel won't sell python-5 which are the other 3 HOB WVR's available.

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## Liquidmetal

great answer, buddy, thanks.

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## SQ8

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Thats superb nominal range for an ACTIVE fire and forget BVR.We have r-27ET variants but they are infrared homing or semi active, *less effective thAn active rounds*.Our Active round the r-77 has range of 80-90km nominally.
> In any case this nominal range means nothing,most BVr's will miss completely at max range and this range is assuming both aircraft are head on.In tail chase ranges are reduced drastically for all missiles.The real figure that matters is the 'no escape zone' and that always classified.That along with elctronic endurance of missile.*This missile is the best BVR in the subcontinent atm*,.



Which missile? the Aim-120-C-5?? Yes , Id agree on the basis of real world test and operational performance of previous models.

The R-27 and 77 series.. not so much. Id place greater faith in the ASTRA.


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## AUSTERLITZ

Oscar said:


> Which missile? the Aim-120-C-5?? Yes , Id agree on the basis of real world test and operational performance of previous models.
> 
> The R-27 and 77 series.. not so much. Id place greater faith in the ASTRA.



I MEANT AIM-120C-5 is the best BVR in the subcontinent atm,larger range ,better electronic endurance.FiRE AND FORGET ACTIVE SEEKER.Aircraft won't have to keep illuminating target with radar.Its somewhat better than r-77 rvv-ae.


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## SQ8

AUSTERLITZ said:


> I MEANT AIM-120C-5 is the best BVR in the subcontinent atm,larger range ,better electronic endurance.FiRE AND FORGET ACTIVE SEEKER.Aircraft won't have to keep illuminating target with radar.Its somewhat better than r-77 rvv-ae.



Until whatever arms the Rafale comes into service.. Not the MICA.. but whether its an AMRAAM variant or the Meteor.


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## AUSTERLITZ

Oscar said:


> Until whatever arms the Rafale comes into service.. Not the MICA.. but whether its an AMRAAM variant or the Meteor.



When did i say anything about mica?I said meteor will surpass it which is true worldwide.


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## SQ8

AUSTERLITZ said:


> When did i say anything about mica?I said meteor will surpass it which is true worldwide.



Too close between Meteor and AIM-120D to call.


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## AUSTERLITZ

Oscar said:


> Too close between Meteor and AIM-120D to call.



Meteor is said to have 3 times NEZ of aim-120 c and 2 times that of aim-120 d.

Meteor is a ramjet BVR AAM. As such, it does not carry onboard oxygen, but rather uses oxygen from surrounding air, allowing it to hold more fuel. Result is better acceleration, top speed, and range for a given missile size.
AIM-120 has advantage in range.
But range adv is reduced by use of advanced jammers and most imortant use of LO/stealth aircraft which is certain in future.Huge ranges won't matter as radar won't even pick up aircraft till its quite close.In future Aerial warfare missile performance/electronic endurance is probably more imp than missile range alone.

As to what NEZ means for any other readers,
''To explain terminology here, NEZ is NOT a zone where a hit is guaranteed; rather, it is a zone where enemy aircraft cannot outrun missile, waiting for it to run out of fuel, but rather has to outturn it). Higher speed allows it to reduce time to target, and thus opponents reaction time, as well as to retain energy for longer after engine has burned out''.


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## SQ8

AUSTERLITZ said:


> Meteor is said to have 3 times *NEZ of aim-120 c and 2 times that of aim-120 d.*
> 
> Meteor is a ramjet BVR AAM. As such, it does not carry onboard oxygen, but rather uses oxygen from surrounding air, allowing it to hold more fuel. *Result is better acceleration, top speed, and range for a given missile size.*
> AIM-120 has advantage in range.
> But range adv is reduced by use of advanced jammers and most imortant use of LO/stealth aircraft which is certain in future.Huge ranges won't matter as radar won't even pick up aircraft till its quite close.In future Aerial warfare missile performance/electronic endurance is probably more imp than missile range alone.
> 
> As to what NEZ means for any other readers,
> ''To explain terminology here, NEZ is NOT a zone where a hit is guaranteed; rather, it is a zone where enemy aircraft cannot outrun missile, waiting for it to run out of fuel, but rather has to outturn it). Higher speed allows it to reduce time to target, and thus opponent&#8217;s reaction time, as well as to retain energy for longer after engine has burned out''.



You are basing the NEZ on what parameters? Engagement speed? The Aim-120D is at 180km.. thats the flight range..
The 120D has better guidance, better ECCM.. The Meteor is still without an update to match it electronically.
In any case, that is beyond this thread.. but better suited to the general military forum.


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## Donatello

@Oscar

How many hours our pilots on F-16 rack up in a month and in a year?


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## nomi007

FIRE CONTROL

The frontal sector optronics (OSF) 
Located at the foot of the glass on the front of the cockpit, in a volume of 80 liters, it has the characteristic of being passive, not emitting energy, which makes the operation almost indétectable.C is a complete system in service on any other fighter aircraft in service monde.Son operation is similar to a radar in the air / air and the air / open function.
- It detects and locates targets
- Identifies the target
- Analysis training
- The result of fire.
He also participated well in tamper aircraft to attack.
With its infrared capabilities, it provides a valuable aid for night driving.
The OSF has a fully integrated navigation system and attack aircraft.

FUNCTION AIR / AIR:

The OSF provides research, acquisition and tracking of air targets in two dimensions with total discretion, and in three dimensions using the laser path.
With important functions:
- Analysis of raids
- Analysis of shooting results
- Visual recognition of targets.
The main qualities of the sensor are its discretion, its ability to function integrates electronic jamming environment, its wide angular range and accuracy of the supplied parameters.

AIR / LAND & SEA SERVICE:

The many modes of air-to-air operation, air-ground and air-sea are configured automatically based on the scheduled task for the plane, or at the request of the pilot during the flight.
The OSF retains its capacity for research and acquisition.
The imaging mode analysis and target tracking, telemetry mode localization three dimensions.
The OSF is composed of two optical paths:
- Dedicated to the infrared, and a head which is a stabilized flush ball above the nose of the aircraft
The IR channel has a day / tracking and imaging function function, respectively called IRST and FLIR.
- Bringing a TV channel and a laser rangefinder.

TV / laser path is reserved for target identification and telemetry. Both have a wide range of excursion and offer the possibility for the driver to choose the field of vision of his choice.

The RBE2

Characteristics associated with "fire and forget" missile Mica and integrated into a system which merges data from other sensors (including remote identification), the RBE2 is a fundamental part of the fire control "simultaneous multi-target" the Rafale.

FUNCTION AIR / AIR:
radar implements a detection mode and automatic distance of dozens of air targets continued in all possible configurations:
- Reconciliation
-Distance
- Up
- Downwards.
The fineness of the prosecution gives descriptions of objectives specific to the fire control Mica missile.

Electronic scanning optimizes the compromise area monitored / tracked targets and gives the crew the way to engage targets of his choice while continuing to monitor the emergence of potential threats in the designated space portion.

An essential contribution in attack ground and sea

For ground attack, the radar provides real time information, regardless of weather conditions, the automatic tracking of ground in the vertical plane at very low altitude. This capability is coupled to the flight controls and overcomes the most adverse shooting missiles by releasing basic flight crew for the benefit of the conduct of the mission. The RBE2 is also able to provide the system with lateral avoidance of unexpected obstacles in mission planning information.

AIR / LAND & SEA SERVICE:

The RBE2 is a single sensor can be configured to scale the second to deal with an aerial threat or allow the destruction of a target surface:

Versatility: all components of the weapon system Rafale bring their contribution, since the simultaneous carriage of Mica missiles and arms air-ground and continuous availability in the operational software of all fire control air air, air-to-ground and air-Sea.

The RBE2 provides the information necessary for registration of the inertial / GPS navigation, and allows the exact description of ground targets in all weathers.
In attack the sea, RBE2 delivers long-range analysis of the tactical situation with identification and classification of targets and allows firing Exocet-type missile systems outside surface to air defense.

these are detail of rafale
which type of FIRE CONTROL

The frontal sector optronics (OSF) in f-16 bl-52


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## SQ8

nomi007 said:


> *The frontal sector optronics (OSF) in f-16 bl-52*



No F-16 block-52 carries anything as such as a IRST system. The picture is a Rafale which even the canopy dictates.
The only operational F-16 with an IRST is the UAE Block-60.


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## Storm Force

THIS IS STIL THE BEST COMBAT PLANE that PAF can field and IMO will remain so for the NEAR FUTURE.

I stil feel loking at PAF limited options THE PAF should go AND GET more F16 especially BLOCK 52. 

if pakistans PLAY THIS CORRECTLY they could even be GRANT supported/aided. BUT you have to TALK THE SAME language AS USA. 

Something you did VERY WELL IN THE PAST yet retained your independant NATIONAL INTERESTS as well.

63 F16s (18 block 52S) WILL GIVE iaf A HEADACHE but is not unsurmoutable (WAT YOU HAVE TODAY)

125 F16 (60 block 52) will give PAF air superiority at least over THEIR AIRS[PACE (WAT YOU NEED TODAY)


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## Kompromat

@Storm Force

Stop using caps, you are hurting my eyes.


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## Storm Force

Sorry aero


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## Viper0011.

Storm Force said:


> 63 F16s (18 block 52S) WILL GIVE iaf A HEADACHE but is not unsurmoutable (WAT YOU HAVE TODAY)
> 125 F16 (60 block 52) will give PAF air superiority at least over THEIR AIRS[PACE (WAT YOU NEED TODAY)



Being a fair person that I am, I like to give credit to where it deserves. You and I have had some lengthy discussions where you go out of reality on projecting India being a supreme power. 

But this post surprised me as it is a VERY realistic and honest assessment. So a BIG thank you. Productive discussions only happen when people are realistic. 

I think the same. In fact, I think PAF should procure F-16 B52's in larger numbers like you said. Then keep upgrading the JFT to BII and BIII standards. Skip the J-10 all together. Acquire four squadrons of J-11's with J-16's avionics (as they are much more advanced). Later, bite the bullet one time and get the J-31X stealth planes a few squadrons. That makes it a very complete and strong air force. It also gives them air superiority over their own skies in a very big way


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## BATMAN

Oscar said:


> No F-16 block-52 carries anything as such as a IRST system. The picture is a Rafale which even the canopy dictates.
> The only operational F-16 with an IRST is the UAE Block-60.



Didn't F-16 had boom type refueling?


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## SQ8

BATMAN said:


> Didn't F-16 had boom type refueling?



They do, located behind the cockpit








orangzaib said:


> In fact, I think PAF should procure F-16 B52's in larger numbers like you said


It would be great it you could write to your local congressman and senator to push for it


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## Viper0011.

Oscar said:


> It would be great it you could write to your local congressman and senator to push for it



My local congressman doesn't decide who gets the F-16's. The foreign policy does. For once, I agree with Storm Force. LEARN how to communicate with the Americans in the language that they understand and it is built upon mutual trust and through establishing a good relationship. 

You guys never had democracy prevail in your country. Result of that was that every dictator in power came to Washington and complained about its own people turning bad and how they would become a threat to others. That's how they got the aid, weapons, etc. 

Now you guys do have a democratically elected government. What that means is that they should come to Washington and show the will to work as a partner with the Americans (and with the world). Once the West starts to see the intensity and the talibanization going away from the Pakistani society, I can't see why the F-16's which are really yesterday's technology for the US will be a problem.


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## Gentelman

orangzaib said:


> My local congressman doesn't decide who gets the F-16's. The foreign policy does. For once, I agree with Storm Force. LEARN how to communicate with the Americans in the language that they understand and it is built upon mutual trust and through establishing a good relationship.
> 
> You guys never had democracy prevail in your country. Result of that was that every dictator in power came to Washington and complained about its own people turning bad and how they would become a threat to others. That's how they got the aid, weapons, etc.
> 
> Now you guys do have a democratically elected government. What that means is that they should come to Washington and show the will to work as a partner with the Americans (and with the world). Once the West starts to see the intensity and the talibanization going away from the Pakistani society, I can't see why the F-16's which are really yesterday's technology for the US will be a problem.



PAF don't want US weaponary and in case of Block 52 the PAF is prefreing J-10 with no string attached and with AESW radar and comparable to 52 and cheaper
but it has engine problems along with some other probs to overcome
well I suppose around 2016+ all its avionics and radar etc would be upgraded and all probs would be solved
it would be what PAF want
F-16 refulling AWACS prob with ZDK and uncertainity make it less preferable but EFT or Rafael would have been considered if were available


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## airmarshal

I do agree with people here who say Pakistan does not want US technology. It comes with a lot of strings attached and US policy towards Pakistan has been very fickle. 

I agree with a large number of F-16s, Pakistan will have air superiority at least in their own skies. But there is a big IF involved here which Pakistan may not want to risk. 

Upgrading current F-16s to Block 52s is the way to go. 

In the long run, no matter how much money we have and how many expensive weapons we can buy, there is no substitute to local development and production of weapons. That is the long shot but this is the way to go for sustainable defense.


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## Last Hope

Gentelman said:


> PAF don't want US weaponary and in case of Block 52 the PAF is prefreing J-10 with no string attached and with AESW radar and comparable to 52 and cheaper&#8230;&#8230;



Wrong. PAF wants US weapons. It is the strings they don't want.


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## SQ8

orangzaib said:


> My local congressman doesn't decide who gets the F-16's. The foreign policy does. For once, I agree with Storm Force. LEARN how to communicate with the Americans in the language that they understand and it is built upon* mutual trust and through establishing a good relationship. *
> 
> You guys never had democracy prevail in your country. Result of that was that every dictator in power came to Washington and complained about its own people turning bad and how they would become a threat to others. That's how they got the aid, weapons, etc.
> 
> Now you guys do have a democratically elected government. What that means is that they should come to Washington and show the will to work as a partner with the Americans (and with the world).* Once the West starts to see the intensity and the talibanization going away from the Pakistani society, I can't see why the F-16's which are really yesterday's technology for the US will be a problem.*



The F-16's have nothing to do with Talibanizaition, they never did. Which means the wrong narrative gets sent back from CNN.
The F-16's are related with maintaining the balance with India, and congressional hearings prove that it is truly the case and nothing else. Moreover, the secondary worry about the F-16's is China even after it has been made clear that the Chinese do not have access to the US equipment anymore. Heck if anything, its usually ourselves who were trying to reverse engineer it SO that when(and not if) you do leave the area and renege on your pledges for co-operation and mutual understanding.. there is at least something we can get out of it. With the new Block-52's monitored by multiple safeguards.. and the MLU's as well.. nothing of that sort happens anymore.
Sounds short sighted, but history has been a hard teacher in this regard. The F-16's are the most capable fighter in our inventory but they are also very very fragile in terms of reliance. To expect that the United States to stop wooing up to their Sheriff to be in South Asia and be ready to arm us to an extent that changes the scales by even a bit is to expect too much of us.

So while the F-16's are a great frontline force, I would not bank on them as the sole savior. Because at the end of the day, economics dictate US foreign policy(otherwise extremism and HR violations extends way beyond Pakistan in many other US _allies_). India serves its purpose as a bullwark to the main focus of AirSeaBattle..i.e China.. To change the balance in Pakistan or lose Indian goodwill means more pressure on the Chinese front along with losing potential economic partners. Since that equation holds true for a long time.. I seriously doubt that the US would be happy selling F-16's _Free of strings_...critical, wartime ..strings.

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## Viper0011.

Oscar said:


> The F-16's have nothing to do with Talibanizaition, they never did. Which means the wrong narrative gets sent back from CNN.
> The F-16's are related with maintaining the balance with India, and congressional hearings prove that it is truly the case and nothing else.
> Because at the end of the day, economics dictate US foreign policy(otherwise extremism and HR violations extends way beyond Pakistan in many other US _allies_). I seriously doubt that the US would be happy selling F-16's _Free of strings_...critical, wartime ..strings.



I kind of agree with some of your key points. Talibanization doesn't have anything to do with the F-16's....but right now, everything has to do with it. Even inside Pakistan, take a look at how many muslims get killed due to these terrorists? Forget about the west for a second and take a look inside Pakistan. So, a situation like that in a nuclear country worries everyone. Plus, I know HR violations happen in India a lot too. Kashmiris are living in a torture camp for them called their mother land!!! So I know the bias there. But the bigger trade partnership has countries ignore it.
SO you did highlight an interesting issue. But you aren't addressing the fix of this issue but you do know what it is. The line where you said, that the foreign policy is directed based on economics...absolutely. So, the fix to this situation is fixing Pakistani economy. The US companies may be reluctant to sell you guys stuff under the FMS.....but try saying no to hard cash............if Pakistanis work on their economy and it can easily get into top 20 largest economies due to 200 million strong population......no one would say no to hard cash. As a reputable, strong country without the terrorism drama is asking for weapons and they will come on cash buyer's term. End of the story. France is famous for doing this. You can ask them to put their mother in the cockpit and if they think there is enough cash for it, they'll do it. Wrong example but it sets the stage on how business is done. Beggars can"t be choosers. But cash and trade means you get to chose how you like it. Not what I can easily sell....

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## MastanKhan

orangzaib said:


> My local congressman doesn't decide who gets the F-16's. The foreign policy does. For once, I agree with Storm Force. LEARN how to communicate with the Americans in the language that they understand and it is built upon mutual trust and through establishing a good relationship.
> 
> You guys never had democracy prevail in your country. Result of that was that every dictator in power came to Washington and complained about its own people turning bad and how they would become a threat to others. That's how they got the aid, weapons, etc.
> 
> Now you guys do have a democratically elected government. What that means is that they should come to Washington and show the will to work as a partner with the Americans (and with the world). Once the West starts to see the intensity and the talibanization going away from the Pakistani society, I can't see why the F-16's which are really yesterday's technology for the US will be a problem.



Sir,

The know-it-all arrogant pakistani will never learn how to manipulate the u s to its advantage---even when it was presented everything on a silver platter---it acted to its best to ruin the advantage / the handicap that it was being given.

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## razgriz19

More F-16s would be good. We already operate them, so it wouldn't really hurt to increase the numbers.
The only problem would be that PAF might want to spend that money to get 3 times as much JF-17s than the F-16.


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## Gentelman

Last Hope said:


> Wrong. PAF wants US weapons. It is the strings they don't want.



means PAF don't want US weapons with strings and US isn't going to do anything to make us comfortable in near future and even without strings US always use traking devises they always use dirty tricks to gather intellegence like from weaponary,medical survey and such things



razgriz19 said:


> More F-16s would be good. We already operate them, so it wouldn't really hurt to increase the numbers.
> The only problem would be that PAF might want to spend that money to get 3 times as much JF-17s than the F-16.



PAF want JFT as backbone while for higher tech boom F-16 or any other chineese plance will be slected soo JFT has nothing to do withF-16&#8230;&#8230;
J-10 or F-16 are likely to be slected but with no string attached&#8230;&#8230;


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## Storm Force

To ORANGZEIB...




> Skip the J-10 all together. Acquire four squadrons of J-11's with J-16's avionics (as they are much more advanced). Later, bite the bullet one time and get the J-31X stealth planes a few squadrons. That makes it a very complete and strong air force. It also gives them air superiority over their own skies in a very big way


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...n-f-16-discussions-2-a-441.html#ixzz2WkBpm83i

You are heading towards FANTASY LAND Yet again with J16 & J31 these are not possible for the IMMEDIATE THREAT... or near future THREAT.

F16 is possible TODAY but ONLY if you REWIN the TRUST and confidence of THE USA ..

F16 is possible as A STABLE trusted ALLY the USA will pay for THE F16 with GRANT AID 

J16 & J31 are neither here nor available & require billions $$$ which PAF will not have...


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## Storm Force

Orangzeib 

Your point ABOUT economic FIX is the correct

LONG TERM Pakistan the nation MUST be econmically competitive. BIG strong economy WILL give many options NOT just RELIANT on F16 or USA aid.


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## Gryphon

What is the no. of F-16 jets in service with PAF? 

Members are requested to provide details about variants / upgrades and future plans ..


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## [--Leo--]

45 Block 15 will be upgraded with star kit 
18 Block 52


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## razgriz19



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## Neptune

razgriz19 said:


>



PAF falcons does't have CFTs. Plus this is a USAF F-16. Look at it's tail.


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## Jungibaaz

Neptune said:


> PAF falcons does't have CFTs. Plus this is a USAF F-16. Look at it's tail.



They do have CFTs

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## Imran Khan

Neptune said:


> PAF falcons does't have CFTs. Plus this is a USAF F-16. Look at it's tail.



you need to learn more before post comments

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## Last Hope

Neptune said:


> PAF falcons does't have CFTs. Plus this is a USAF F-16. Look at it's tail.


PAF F-16s do have CFT. Plus, 10-912 is PAF Block-52.

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## Neptune

Last Hope said:


> PAF F-16s do have CFT. Plus, 10-912 is PAF Block-52.



(was at the friday's prayer. Sorry my late)

Thank you for informing me but I see a USAF symbol at the tail side. And btw when did PAF's F-16s recieved CFTs. Thank you.

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## Last Hope

Neptune said:


> (was at the friday's prayer. Sorry my late)
> 
> Thank you for informing me but I see a USAF symbol at the tail side. And btw when did PAF's F-16s recieved CFTs. Thank you.



It's alright.

PAF received CFTs soon after delivery of Block-52s. Infact the very first pictures emerged of a F-16C with CFTs.

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## Jango

Last Hope said:


> It's alright.
> 
> PAF received CFTs soon after delivery of Block-52s. Infact the very first pictures emerged of a F-16C with CFTs.



When was this pic taken? Was Lt Gen Zaheer Ul Islam DG ISI at that time or Corps Commander?


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## Imran Khan

nuclearpak said:


> When was this pic taken? Was Lt Gen Zaheer Ul Islam DG ISI at that time or Corps Commander?



yes sir they visited on 13feb2012 and COAS fly block52 too that day . he take ISI cheif charge at 18 march 2012 sir he was Vcrops boss the day picture taken .



Neptune said:


> (was at the friday's prayer. Sorry my late)
> 
> Thank you for informing me but I see a USAF symbol at the tail side. And btw when did PAF's F-16s recieved CFTs. Thank you.




that was pre delivery sign they are preparing the bird for paint works .

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## Imran Khan

pre delivery 10904 PAF f-16 block52+ with USAF logo

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## Last Hope

nuclearpak said:


> When was this pic taken? Was Lt Gen Zaheer Ul Islam DG ISI at that time or Corps Commander?



This was official ceremony for induction of the new aircraft. ZuI was Corp Commander that time.


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## nomi007

cft is basically israeli concept
i read some where that cfts of current f-16s bl-52 are israeli made and the tail of f-16 bl-52


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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> cft is basically israeli concept
> i read some where that cfts of current f-16s bl-52 are israeli made and the tail of f-16 bl-52



wrong FCT concept and use is from 50s and lockheed did it for F-16 not israel . 

First phase of flight testing of the F-16 conformal fuel tanks completed :: F-16.net


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## Jango

The PAF F-16's do have a refueling nozzle, but how do they practice for that?

The F-16's refueled from KC-135's of USAF during Red Flag exercise, but would the PAF pilots had any practice prior to that? 

Or is aerial refueling easy for the jet pilot and difficult for the boom operator?


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## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> The PAF F-16's do have a refueling nozzle, but how do they practice for that?
> 
> The F-16's refueled from KC-135's of USAF during Red Flag exercise, but would the PAF pilots had any practice prior to that?
> 
> Or is aerial refueling easy for the jet pilot and difficult for the boom operator?



The plumbing needed to be refreshed since it had never been used as such since.. ever.
Other than that.. Its just a matter of a steady hand a certain briefings. Otherwise the USAF boom system is a joint effort on the part of the pilot and boom operator. But if you can follow his instructions to match speed, go up ten feet down ten.. left.. etc... being n average pilot you can pull it off...esp in something as nimble as a F-16.
Try asking the C-5 pilots how they refuel.


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## Thorough Pro

I think PAF pilots were trained for aerial refueling in Pakistan by US Tankers before they left for the exercises. It would have been very unprofessional for PAF high command to send 6 fighters and 12 valuable pilots over Atlantic without any prior training to get last minute instructions of 10 foot up, right or left from a boom operator. 





nuclearpak said:


> The PAF F-16's do have a refueling nozzle, but how do they practice for that?
> 
> The F-16's refueled from KC-135's of USAF during Red Flag exercise, but would the PAF pilots had any practice prior to that?
> 
> Or is aerial refueling easy for the jet pilot and difficult for the boom operator?


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## Argus Panoptes

Oscar said:


> The plumbing needed to be refreshed since it had never been used as such since.. ever.
> Other than that.. Its just a matter of a steady hand a certain briefings. Otherwise the USAF boom system is a joint effort on the part of the pilot and boom operator. But if you can follow his instructions to match speed, go up ten feet down ten.. left.. etc... being n average pilot you can pull it off...esp in something as nimble as a F-16.
> Try asking the C-5 pilots how they refuel.



There is a set of marks on the belly of the tanker. When the aircraft is in the proper position, they appear as a cross to the pilot of the receiving aircraft. He/she simply holds that position while the boom operator "flies" the boom to mate with the receptacle.

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## Storm Force

Sixty three f16 in paf


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## TOPGUN

Storm Force said:


> Sixty three f16 in paf




Thank you for the info .... good job but we know how many vipers we have


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## Viper0011.

Thorough Pro said:


> I think PAF pilots were trained for aerial refueling in Pakistan by US Tankers before they left for the exercises. It would have been very unprofessional for PAF high command to send 6 fighters and 12 valuable pilots over Atlantic without any prior training to get last minute instructions of 10 foot up, right or left from a boom operator.



KC-135 tanker simulation system is used for training first. Second, the tanker's boom operator uses similar to PS-2 joy sticks to operate the boom probe and direct it to connect with the refueling duct. This doesn't require months of training.... the pilot needs to hold an aircraft steady at a certain airspeed and angle as instructed by the tanker and upon manuals or markings available on the tanker. The rest is done by the boom operator.



Storm Force said:


> Sixty three f16 in paf



How many have been MLU'd? Does anyone know the number?


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## Last Hope

orangzaib said:


> How many have been MLU'd? Does anyone know the number?



According to a PDF Think Tank, 12 units have gone through MLU progress are in service.


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## Viper0011.

Last Hope said:


> According to a PDF Think Tank, 12 units have gone through MLU progress are in service.



How many left and when will all of them be MLU'd?


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## Donatello

orangzaib said:


> How many left and when will all of them be MLU'd?



32 original peace gate f-16s and then 14 from USA. Total of 46. Minus 1 attrition loss.


45-12 =33

So 33 units left to go for MLU.

However, if another 14 are released by USN or USAF, then add those. I believe Pakistan bought 60 MLU kits.

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> 32 original peace gate f-16s and then 14 from USA. Total of 46. Minus 1 attrition loss.
> 
> 
> 45-12 =33
> 
> So 33 units left to go for MLU.
> 
> However, if another 14 are released by USN or USAF, then add those. I believe Pakistan bought 60 MLU kits.



42 in Turkey, 3 in the US (pattern a/c), 1 attrition.


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## nomi007

U.S. F-16s tasked to destroy enemy radars, missile batteries to get the same radar-absorbing paint job of the F-35






All the U.S. &#8220;Wild Weasel&#8221; F-16s are being given a new paint job similar to the one of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

It is called &#8220;Have Glass 5th generation&#8221; as it represents the evolution of the standard Have Glass program that saw all the F-16s receiving a two-tone grey color scheme made with a special radar-absorbing paint capable to reduce the aircraft Radar Cross Section: in fact, &#8220;Vipers&#8221; are covered with RAM (Radar Absorbent Material) made of microscopic metal grains that can degrade the radar signature of the aircraft.

For the moment, the JSF-like paint job will be applied to the F-16CM (formerly CJ) Block 50 Fighting Falcon aircraft that can carry a variety of air-to-air and air-to-surface ordnance, including HARM (High-speed Anti-Radiation Missiles) and precision-guided munitions.

Their role is to enter the enemy territory ahead of the strike package to take care of the enemy air defenses: radars and fixed and mobile SAM (Surface to Air Missiles) batteries.

Therefore, the units that will fly with the F-16CMs in the new color scheme will be those tasked with SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) missions: the 52nd Fighter Wing at Spangdahlem (Germany), the 35th FW at Misawa (Japan), the 20th FW at Shaw Air Force Base, the 169th FW at McEntire Joint National Guard Base (SC), and 148th FW at Duluth International Airport, (MN).

Whilst two aircraft in the U.S. flew the Have Glass 4 paint job for test purposes (98-0004 and 98-0005 flying with the 85th Test and Evaluation Squadron from Eglin AFB) the first aircraft spotted in the new livery is a Minnesota ANG F-16CM, 91-0391, that is currently deployed at Kandahar, Afghanistan.

The F-35 will replace the F-16CM in the SEAD role in the future.

is this paint available for export

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## Luftwaffe

nomi007 said:


> is this paint available for export



No likely perhaps customers like Singapore, U.A.E, S.Korea might get it later in years to come.


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## nomi007

The frontal sector optronics (OSF) in f-16 bl-60


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## nomi007

self delete


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## Rajput_Pakistani

PAF F-16 MLU in recent Saudi exercise outperform Typhoon and F-15 according to Allen Warne


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## Argus Panoptes

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> PAF F-16 MLU in recent Saudi exercise outperform Typhoon and F-15 according to Allen Warne



*Only within WVR scenarios*, please note.


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## shanixee

Argus Panoptes said:


> *Only within WVR scenarios*, please note.



Where is it mentioned that its WVR scenario only..??


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## slapshot

shanixee said:


> Where is it mentioned that its WVR scenario only..??


I think it says it indirectly since maneuvers will mostly count in WVR scenarios.


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## shanixee

slapshot said:


> I think it says it indirectly since maneuvers will mostly count in WVR scenarios.



MY friend this is where your wrong...who says maneuvers are count for WVR scenario...we should take things s it is if we dont know the details...i dont know why we like to portray things on our imaginations.


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## slapshot

shanixee said:


> MY friend this is where your wrong...who says maneuvers are count for WVR scenario...*we should take things s it is if we dont know the details...*i dont know why we like to portray things on our imaginations.


If we always do so then how can we educate our·selves? On Topic although I am not an expert on Jets but I have seen people relating maneuvers to WVR and justifying their arguments. Practically there are higher chances that F-16 will be in a BVR scenario if ever came accross these jets.


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## Argus Panoptes

shanixee said:


> Where is it mentioned that its WVR scenario only..??



Right here in AirForces Monthly:



Windjammer said:


> You see, in an article on the PAF, Alan Warnes reported that in the exercise, PAF fleeced the EF Typhoons, without disclosing their nationality, someone assumed them to be RAF aircraft and thus how it began to be reported, however it took some persuading for Alan to tell me the actual nationality also later confirmed by the Pakistan military attaches in Istanbul.
> 
> @gambit'
> 
> Sir, what are your thoughts on F-16s taking out the Typhoon and the F-15s. !!

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## Windjammer

Argus Panoptes said:


> Right here in AirForces Monthly:


 @shanixee @Argus Panoptes

That was in the previous exercise in 2008, for the latest against Saudi air force, Alan warnes specifically mentions, PAF contingent as F-16 *(MLU)*........ meaning BVR capable machines were involved.


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## Argus Panoptes

Windjammer said:


> @shanixee @Argus Panoptes
> 
> That was in the previous exercise in 2008, for the latest against Saudi air force, Alan warnes specifically mentions, PAF contingent as F-16 *(MLU)*........ meaning *BVR capable machines* were involved.



Yes, these are BVR capable machines on both sides no doubt, but what Alan refers to are WVR maneuvers.

It is an entirely different game with BVR missiles.


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## Windjammer

Argus Panoptes said:


> Yes, these are BVR capable machines on both sides no doubt, but what Alan refers to are WVR maneuvers.
> 
> It is an entirely different game with BVR missiles.



You are missing the point, the Air forces monthly link refers to Anatolian Eagle exercise which took place in 2008, when PAF F-16s had no BVR capability, the exercise which took place with RSAF just last month, all options were exercised since PAF aircraft involved were BVR capable. !!


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## Argus Panoptes

Windjammer said:


> You are missing the point, the Air forces monthly link refers to Anatolian Eagle exercise which took place in 2008, when PAF F-16s had no BVR capability, the exercise which took place with RSAF just last month, all options were exercised since PAF aircraft involved were BVR capable. !!



I understand what you are saying Sir, but I will maintain my position until and unless something more definitive is presented.


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## Kompromat

@Argus Panoptes

"maneuvers" = Exercise.

The exercise in question is PeaceHawks-1 in Taif which was a DACT exercise, between Saudi F-15s,EF Typhoons,Turkish F-16 block 50s and PAF's F-16A/B MLU-MIII. Our good friend @Mosamania can confirm this.


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## Argus Panoptes

Aeronaut said:


> @Argus Panoptes
> 
> "maneuvers" = Exercise.
> 
> The exercise in question is PeaceHawks-1 in Taif which is a DACT exercise. Our good friend @Mosamania can confirm this.



Yes Sir, but something more definitive is needed before you can conclude that the F-16MLU was superior to the Typhoons in that exercise for BVR scenarios.


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## Mosamania

Aeronaut said:


> @Argus Panoptes
> 
> "maneuvers" = Exercise.
> 
> The exercise in question is PeaceHawks-1 in Taif which was a DACT exercise, between Saudi F-15s,EF Typhoons,Turkish F-16 block 50s and PAF's F-16A/B MLU-MIII. Our good friend @Mosamania can confirm this.



Pics or it didn't happen. Besides, PAF is bringing a bad image to itself in the international arena if it continues publishing confidential exercise results. That assuming it is right in the first place.

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## Kompromat

Argus Panoptes said:


> Yes Sir, but something more definitive is needed before you can conclude that the F-16MLU was superior to the Typhoons in that exercise for BVR scenarios.



DACT exercises are not BVR.



Mosamania said:


> Pics or it didn't happen. Besides, PAF is bringing a bad image to itself in the international arena if it continues publishing confidential exercise results. That assuming it is right in the first place.



Results wasn't published by PAF. But by aviation journalist Alan Warne. He hasn't stated that he received this information from PAF.


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## slapshot

Aeronaut said:


> DACT exercises are not BVR.


This will bring us back to the question that maneuvers only count more in WVR scenarios


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## Argus Panoptes

Aeronaut said:


> DACT exercises are not BVR...............



Yes Sir, that is why I will maintain that the supposed successes being discussed here are only for WVR situations, and not BVR, unless evidence to the contrary is shared.


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## Kompromat

@Mosamania

PAF pilots earn nothing by winning from Saudi pilots. Saudi pilots,in most cases rookies gain alot by losing. Remember this is not kids playing games. Its true prefessionals 'helping' their friends so that when they encounter a not so friendly pilot,they have a better chance to come home alive.

Most of us fanboys have no idea about the atmosphere they have in the ACMI control rooms, and board rooms. They fight each other and then go down and help each other understanf,how it could have been done differently.

PAF has most amount of real air combat experiance with 2nd,3rd and 4th gen platforms. Therefore the 'repute' is 'earned'. Those guys who lost in this exercise will one day make your best pilots, its all about learning.
 @Argus Panoptes

Sir no one discussed BVR, there was no mention of it. PAF's BVR capabilities are premitive. Turks and Chinese are filling our training gaps.

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## Argus Panoptes

Aeronaut said:


> .................
> @Argus Panoptes
> 
> Sir no one discussed BVR, there was no mention of it. PAF's BVR capabilities are premitive. Turks and Chinese are filling our training gaps.



I would agree with that of course, as long it is made clear to fanboys that BVR is a whole 'nother kettle of fish and we are indeed not as good with BVR as we are with WVR, no matter how upgraded our F-16s are. Confidence is good; overconfidence is not.


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## Jungibaaz

slapshot said:


> This will bring us back to the question that maneuvers only count more in WVR scenarios



For the most part.
But why so glum, chum?

WVR combat is by no means a thing of the past, and our pilots it seems are some of the best in the world for it.
In fact, in our theatre there will be a lot more WVR engagements.


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## Rajput_Pakistani

Argus Panoptes said:


> *Only within WVR scenarios*, please note.



Dear as other members mentioned that there is no description of maneuvers in this specific tweet. Secondly maneuvers are not only w.r.t WVR only. For a successful BVR shot also airplane have to maneuver itself in a perfect position (height, speed, angle). Pilot have to be certain regarding kill probability before firing a 300,000 dollars missile. Fighter air crafts move very fast and in matter of seconds BVR engagement is changed to WVR. Many experts still believe that WVR will count 80% air to air combats in future. To date all BVR kills were either against slow moving turbo props (like PN Atlantic) or contemporary Serbian or Iraqi fighters like Mig21, 23 and 29. No Early warning and no Radars to engage enemy or even adopt defensive posture. 
If WVR was a thing of the past, then why countries are investing in latest 30g+ WVR missiles with off-bore sites and HMD support?

And also in BVR, if you are in defensive position, still pilot skill will be counted, when he will receive an early warning. And there is also a pilot skill involved, when a smart pilot will turn the table in its favor by forcing a bvr engagement into WVR.

And sir, i would also like to have your views where you compared EF Typhoon with F-16 blk52 in BVR engagements?

PS: If someone plz also tell that what Saudis Typhoon's specification? Have they got IRST? If yes then even beating them in WVR is a serious thing.

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## Myth_buster_1

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> PAF F-16 MLU in recent Saudi exercise outperform Typhoon and F-15 according to Allen Warne



another tweet 

According to my sources, PAF were asked to fly Red and Blue Air. The Saudi Typhoon CO was allegedly so hacked off he didn't go to debrief..

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## Argus Panoptes

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> Dear as other members mentioned that there is no description of maneuvers in this specific tweet. Secondly maneuvers are not only w.r.t WVR only. For a successful BVR shot also airplane have to maneuver itself in a perfect position (height, speed, angle). Pilot have to be certain regarding kill probability before firing a 300,000 dollars missile. Fighter air crafts move very fast and in matter of seconds BVR engagement is changed to WVR. Many experts still believe that WVR will count 80% air to air combats in future. To date all BVR kills were either against slow moving turbo props (like PN Atlantic) or contemporary Serbian or Iraqi fighters like Mig21, 23 and 29. No Early warning and no Radars to engage enemy or even adopt defensive posture.
> If WVR was a thing of the past, then why countries are investing in latest 30g+ WVR missiles with off-bore sites and HMD support?
> 
> And also in BVR, if you are in defensive position, still pilot skill will be counted, when he will receive an early warning. And there is also a pilot skill involved, when a smart pilot will turn the table in its favor by forcing a bvr engagement into WVR.
> 
> And sir, i would also like to have your views where you compared EF Typhoon with F-16 blk52 in BVR engagements?
> 
> PS: If someone plz also tell that what Saudis Typhoon's specification? Have they got IRST? If yes then even beating them in WVR is a serious thing.



I agree with you that we are pretty good in WVR engagements, and that WVR skills remain important. However, BVR capabilities are not our strong suit and that fact needs to be kept in mind. Additionally, BVR will be increasingly important in the future, although, as you say, not exclusively.


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## shanixee

Windjammer said:


> @shanixee @Argus Panoptes
> 
> That was in the previous exercise in 2008, for the latest against Saudi air force, Alan warnes specifically mentions, PAF contingent as F-16 *(MLU)*........ meaning BVR capable machines were involved.



exactly this is what I am talking about...Thanks for mentioning it...


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## Argus Panoptes

shanixee said:


> exactly this is what I am talking about...Thanks for mentioning it...



What exactly are you saying Sir? Are you claiming that Pakistani F-16 MLUs demonstrated wins in BVR scenarios in addition to the known WVR wins? That cannot be correct.


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## Windjammer

Asked Alan this morning on whether the scenario was just WVR or BVR tactics were involved,....rather than completely denying it, he simply replied, that he doesn't know more. !!


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## fatman17

u should go to isreali def sites to see what lerned israelis think about the PAF. (of course the indians say otherwise over there also)


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## Armstrong

fatman17 said:


> u should go to isreali def sites to see what lerned israelis think about the PAF. (of course the indians say otherwise over there also)



And what do they say ?


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## shanixee

fatman17 said:


> u should go to isreali def sites to see what lerned israelis think about the PAF. (of course the indians say otherwise over there also)


can you please tell me any israeli website.??regards..


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## fatman17

Armstrong said:


> And what do they say ?



go find out.....

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## untitled

Armstrong said:


> And what do they say ?





shanixee said:


> can you please tell me any israeli website.??regards..





fatman17 said:


> go find out.....




Google it

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## Argus Panoptes

Windjammer said:


> Asked Alan this morning on whether the scenario was just WVR or BVR tactics were involved,....rather than completely denying it, he simply replied, that he doesn't know more. !!



According to Sir @Aeronaut :



Aeronaut said:


> *DACT exercises are not BVR.*
> 
> 
> 
> Results wasn't published by PAF. But by aviation journalist Alan Warne. He hasn't stated that he received this information from PAF.


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## Last Hope

fatman17 said:


> u should go to isreali def sites to see what lerned israelis think about the PAF. (of course the indians say otherwise over there also)



Def sites? I have experience talking to a person who has communicated to Israeli military, representing government. You need to hear the first hand experience

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## Thorough Pro

Too much hula about exercise scenarios. Even if PAF trashed Typhoons and Eagles in WVR, we just need to remember in the scheme of aerial battles BVR always precedes WVR and having to engage in WVR means You failed to shoot down the enemy and you also survived.

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## fatman17

excercises are good to hone your skills....and you live to fly again.....in combat you have to be the agressor otherwise its curtains...

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## chauvunist

Last Hope said:


> Def sites? I have experience talking to a person who has communicated to Israeli military, representing government. You need to hear the first hand experience



Enlighten us with your Experience,Sir....


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## Marwat Khan Lodhi



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## fatman17

*Name; Wg.Cmd. Ghazanfar Latif* 
Country; Pakistan 
Unit; 9th squadron "Griffins" 
Flying F-16s; from 1996 
Viper Hours; 2500 

Comment; In March/April 2012, Wg Cdr Ghazanfar Latif (then OC No.5 Sqn) reached the unique milestone of becoming the 8th Pakistan Air Force F-16 pilot to complete 2000hrs. Wg Cdr Ghazanfar has been flying F-16s since 1996 and apart from participating in domestic exercises & operational deployments. He has also actively participated in several multinational exercises for PAF that include Exercise Anatolian Eagle 2004 (Turkey), Indus Viper 2008 (Pakistan) and Falcon Talon 2009 (Pakistan).

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## Zabaniyah

Armstrong said:


> And what do they say ?



http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/85878-israelis-ask-if-true-pafs-capability.html

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## Dazzler

makes one feel the pride (y)

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## nomi007



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## Pak47

This is a question more on PAF in general. 

When the Pilots are airborne and lets say they're engaged in a dogfight. 

Do they speak Urdu or English to each other? Or both?


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## Liquidmetal

Pak47 said:


> This is a question more on PAF in general.
> 
> When the Pilots are airborne and lets say they're engaged in a dogfight.
> 
> Do they speak Urdu or English to each other? Or both?



I believe PAF conducts operations in English. According to Defenders of Pakistan, all cadets have to be proficient in English. Hence my conclusions that pilots speak English and since the manuals are all in English it is most likely that the PAF is essentially English 'medium' and rightly so.

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## Kompromat

fatman17 said:


> *Name; Wg.Cmd. Ghazanfar Latif*
> Country; Pakistan
> Unit; 9th squadron "Griffins"
> Flying F-16s; from 1996
> Viper Hours; 2500
> 
> Comment; In March/April 2012, Wg Cdr Ghazanfar Latif (then OC No.5 Sqn) reached the unique milestone of becoming the 8th Pakistan Air Force F-16 pilot to complete 2000hrs. Wg Cdr Ghazanfar has been flying F-16s since 1996 and apart from participating in domestic exercises & operational deployments. He has also actively participated in several multinational exercises for PAF that include Exercise Anatolian Eagle 2004 (Turkey), Indus Viper 2008 (Pakistan) and Falcon Talon 2009 (Pakistan).



This guy?

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## Jango

Pak47 said:


> This is a question more on PAF in general.
> 
> When the Pilots are airborne and lets say they're engaged in a dogfight.
> 
> Do they speak Urdu or English to each other? Or both?



For formal stuff, like the vectoring in to a track, technical procedures etc, they use English, but Urdu and even Punjabi is used most of the times, there is no bar to it. For example if somebody sees a enemy fighter behind his wingman, he would say 'tere peechay hai'.

Once I was listening to the frequency of a helicopter, the pilots were talking in Punjabi with another heli!!! Aj mausam bara kharab aye sir jee, othuun jaldi nikal ana aye, raat nhn rehna uthay!!!

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## jamesseo89

nomi007 said:


>



Better would be for PAF to get at least 30-50 F-16s Block-52 by negotiating with USA in 2002. I am sure this would have provided a better punch to us.

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## Fieldmarshal

jamesseo89 said:


> Better would be for PA to get at least 30-50 F-16s Block-52 by negotiating with USA in 2002. I am sure this would have provided a better punch to us.



PA doesn't operate fighter ac....PAF does


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## nomi007



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## Pak47

nuclearpak said:


> For formal stuff, like the vectoring in to a track, technical procedures etc, they use English, but Urdu and even Punjabi is used most of the times, there is no bar to it. For example if somebody sees a enemy fighter behind his wingman, he would say 'tere peechay hai'.
> 
> Once I was listening to the frequency of a helicopter, the pilots were talking in Punjabi with another heli!!! Aj mausam bara kharab aye sir jee, othuun jaldi nikal ana aye, raat nhn rehna uthay!!!



Thanks! Would have been very dissapointed if they use English. All frequency's I have heard from France to Israel is always in their national language.


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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day*

&#8220;Turn to kill, not to engage. &#8221;
-- CDR Willie Driscoll, USN


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## Windjammer



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## Bratva

Windjammer said:


>








Similarity with JF-17 is remarkable

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## nomi007




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## Jango

mafiya said:


> Similarity with JF-17 is remarkable



The JF-17 is more similar to the F-18 I believe.

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## araz

Nishan_101 said:


> When will 14 remaining F-16s from US that will be upgraded in Turkey. Although like I always say PAF and GoP has done mistakes like these in the past as they could have negotiated better with the US for getting 28 F-16s back along with buying Upgrade Kits from 28+31 F-16s from USA and 30-50 Block-52 with weapons package greater than the number of F-16s being procured.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So Missile under fuselage....



Bhai 
Tujhe Khuda ka wasta hai stop posting theese nonsensical posts without any reality check of what is PAF and Governments position with regards to finances. Whose chacha or Khaloo is going to pay for all the planes that you dream we should have ? Who is going to give you old planes in the numbers that you require from the blocks that you require? Did you know what the technical glitches would be if you now inducted 14 Bl 40s instead of Bl15s? Honestly I sometimes despair at the mindset of some people. Please try and post sensibly.
Araz

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## SQ8

araz said:


> Bhai
> Tujhe Khuda ka wasta hai stop posting theese nonsensical posts without any reality check of what is PAF and Governments position with regards to finances. Whose chacha or Khaloo is going to pay for all the planes that you dream we should have ? Who is going to give you old planes in the numbers that you require from the blocks that you require? Did you know what the technical glitches would be if you now inducted 14 Bl 40s instead of Bl15s? Honestly I sometimes despair at the mindset of some people. Please try and post sensibly.
> Araz



Maybe we should make a dedicated thread for these ideas.


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## araz

Oscar said:


> Maybe we should make a dedicated thread for these ideas.



maybe we should make a thread where only Nishan and his like minded cronies post exclusively and trade their day dreams but PLEASE SOMEONE STOP HIM BEFORE I COMMIT SUICIDE OR STOP POSTING ON THE FORUM.
Araz


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## Jango

nuclearpak said:


> For formal stuff, like the vectoring in to a track, technical procedures etc, they use English, but Urdu and even Punjabi is used most of the times, there is no bar to it. For example if somebody sees a enemy fighter behind his wingman, he would say 'tere peechay hai'.
> 
> Once I was listening to the frequency of a helicopter, the pilots were talking in Punjabi with another heli!!! Aj mausam bara kharab aye sir jee, othuun jaldi nikal ana aye, raat nhn rehna uthay!!!



I was listening to the ATC of Domodedovo airport in Russia, and the controller was talking Russian with the pilot. This was surprising.

usually the discussion in commercial avn is in English so all aircraft on the frequency understand what is being sad.


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## SQ8

*If you post a picture that is not related to the PAF, or is not in context of some discussion. Or you repeat something that you have already been answered five times or more by senior members. You will be thread banned. I am sorry to have to use this but the quality of the posts on this these particular stick threats must be maintained. I am willing to open a new thread so the extreme hypothesis may be discussed their to anybody's hearts content. But please realize that this thread is also used as reference and only the most accurate or realistic of posts which are recognized so by the majority should remain here. *

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## Windjammer

*
A PAF F-16, afterburner lit, is about to enter into a tight G-turn.*

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## Windjammer



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## Cat12345

F-16 in full afterburner is beautiful


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Windjammer said:


>



bro. , please don't forget to blurr the face of the military personnels shown in the piCs which you upload ...

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## Najam Khan

Random photos...






F-16 MLU

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## araz

Why are we allowing photos alone without any content on the board in various threads. There is a photo gallery so why here as well? I dont see the logic of it and what do we learn from photographs(at least most of the time).
Araz

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## Tacticool

When are we getting next batch of mlu f-16s from turkey?


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## nomi007



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## Liquidmetal

The F16 is by far the most sleek and beautiful plane ever built. It's performance is great too and hence somehow PAF must get some more block 52s, somehow.

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## revojam

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> When are we getting next batch of mlu f-16s from turkey?



PAF F-16 Modernization

As the result of the tender opened by Pakistan Air Force regarding the modernization of 41 F-16 Aircraft, TUSA&#350; has been selected as the contractor.

The contract has been signed on 29 June 2009.
The modernization activities started in the last quarter of 2010 by receiving first 3 F-16 to TAI facilities. The total modernization period is anticipated as 47 months and the program is planned to be completed by the year 2014.

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## Tacticool

revojam said:


> PAF F-16 Modernization
> 
> As the result of the tender opened by Pakistan Air Force regarding the modernization of 41 F-16 Aircraft, TUSA&#350; has been selected as the contractor.
> 
> The contract has been signed on 29 June 2009.
> The modernization activities started in the last quarter of 2010 by receiving first 3 F-16 to TAI facilities. The total modernization period is anticipated as 47 months and the program is planned to be completed by the year 2014.



It means 34 months have been passed. So the aircrafts modernized should be at least 30

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## nomi007



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## zainzain

hmmm good discussion keep it up

good guys keep it up


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## Stealth



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## Nishan_101

So when PAF is getting back there remaining 14 F-16s from USA and how much time will it take for the upgrade of these F-16s?? 1 years or less?

So there will be 59 Block-15s + 18 Block-52s. And is there any possibility that by 2020 PAF will going to sell there Block-52s to Greece or any other country and add J-31/F-20 which might be a JV with SAC as it sounds like it.


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## Side-Winder




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## usmanPAF

I'm unable to understand this reality, that Pakistan, being friendly to America, is yet unable to maintain F-16s. How could Turkey get maintenance licences of F-16 , and Pakistan not; when Americans own all "F" series fighters, and so called friendly with Pakistan, then Turkey.

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## Donatello

Nishan_101 said:


> So when PAF is getting back there remaining 14 F-16s from USA and how much time will it take for the upgrade of these F-16s?? 1 years or less?
> 
> So there will be 59 Block-15s + 18 Block-52s. And is there any possibility that by 2020 PAF will going to sell there Block-52s to Greece or any other country and add J-31/F-20 which might be a JV with SAC as it sounds like it.




Read what you have written mate. Does it make any sense to you?

Why would Pakistan sell f-16s that it so desperately needs and got after a long time?

J-31 is NOT Equal to F-20.

It's FC 20 which is JF-17, and J-31 is a Chinese stealth/low detecability aircraft that is just in infancy. 

With Current funds, PAF plans are to Induct 150 JF-17s, Get all the F-16s to MLU standard and maybe press the USA to release the remaining 14 aircraft.

That's it.


Maybe J-10 in the next year or two.


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## Donatello

usmanPAF said:


> I'm unable to understand this reality, that Pakistan, being friendly to America, is yet unable to maintain F-16s. How could Turkey get maintenance licences of F-16 , and Pakistan not; when Americans own all "F" series fighters, and so called friendly with Pakistan, then Turkey.



Welcome to PDF.

Turkey is member of NATO which means they can get whatever they want, provided they have funds. Pakistan on the other hand is not a NATO member which makes purchasing new offensive defense equipment from the USA a difficult task.

And then there is the Funding issue.


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## Viper0011.

Donatello said:


> With Current funds, PAF plans are to Induct 150 JF-17s, Get all the F-16s to MLU standard and maybe press the USA to release the remaining 14 aircraft.



Do you or anyone else know how many -16's have been MLU'd already? I thought the program would end before 2014 and it's like 5 months left before 2014 is here....


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## Last Hope

orangzaib said:


> Do you or anyone else know how many -16's have been MLU'd already? I thought the program would end before 2014 and it's like 5 months left before 2014 is here....



Over a dozen. @Najam Khan


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## SQ8

orangzaib said:


> Do you or anyone else know how many -16's have been MLU'd already? I thought the program would end before 2014 and it's like 5 months left before 2014 is here....



There were multiple delays in the program due to various diplomatic standoffs.


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## Last Hope

In the meantime, he said PAF has also been maintaining and operating a sizeable fleet of US F-16 aircraft for a considerable time and its air/ground crew are fairly experienced in handling the weapon system. 

&#8220;The PAF received its last batch of F-16s in the recent past and *even now there are US Congressional clearances available for the provision of additional F-16 aircraft. Owing to requirements/compulsions in the future, there exists a possibility of acquisition of additional F-16 aircraft*, he said.


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## Dr. Strangelove

Last Hope said:


> In the meantime, he said PAF has also been maintaining and operating a sizeable fleet of US F-16 aircraft for a considerable time and its air/ground crew are fairly experienced in handling the weapon system.
> 
> &#8220;The PAF received its last batch of F-16s in the recent past and *even now there are US Congressional clearances available for the provision of additional F-16 aircraft. Owing to requirements/compulsions in the future, there exists a possibility of acquisition of additional F-16 aircraft*, he said.



who said ??


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## SQ8

wasm95 said:


> who said ??



ACM butt.. please read the interview here.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/269551-paf-attain-capability-keep-its-fighting-force-airborne-long-haul.html

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## Argus Panoptes

Oscar said:


> ACM butt.. please read the interview here.
> http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/269551-paf-attain-capability-keep-its-fighting-force-airborne-long-haul.html



The US Congress is a fickle body, prone to erratic changes.


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## SQ8

Argus Panoptes said:


> The US Congress is a fickle body, prone to erratic changes.



yes they are, but lets try keeping positive as much as our instinct and motives wish us to be dreary and negative 24/7.

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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> There were multiple delays in the program due to various diplomatic standoffs.




What diplomatic standoffs?

I thought all the MLU kits were delivered and TAI was tasked to upgrade the PAF f-16s for this very reason: That USA cannot affect their upgrade so it be done in a neutral country.


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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> What diplomatic standoffs?
> 
> I thought* all the MLU kits were delivered* and TAI was tasked to upgrade the PAF f-16s for this very reason: That USA cannot affect their upgrade so it be done in a neutral country.



Nope, these kits came in batches. I believe there was even news posted here somewhere before on pakistan asking for the release of these kits after May 2.

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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Nope, these kits came in batches. I believe there was even news posted here somewhere before on pakistan asking for the release of these kits after May 2.



Oh Damn those pesky Americans. I believe this is why PAF is requesting 1.5 billion $ for J-10, as quoted by H Khan of pakdef.


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## araz

Donatello said:


> Oh Damn those pesky Americans. I believe this is why PAF is requesting 1.5 billion $ for J-10, as quoted by H Khan of pakdef.



What I understood was that the money has been assured but the platform is still undecided.18 F16 bl.52 will be around 1.3 billion$.US might sweeten things by releasing some older planes foR MLU.What this means for future FC20 deal is still not clear. I think the engine issue maybe a big one for us.
Araz


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## Last Hope

araz said:


> What I understood was that the money has been assured but the platform is still undecided.18 F16 bl.52 will be around 1.3 billion$.US might sweeten things by releasing some older planes foR MLU.What this means for future FC20 deal is still not clear. I think the engine issue maybe a big one for us.
> Araz



Two possible reasons, delay in release of funds to AFFDP or the issue on WS-10.


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## fatman17

*Viper Driver Flying Hours*

*Wg.Cmd. Umer "Archer" Rasheed * 

Viper Driver
Name Wg.Cmd. Umer "Archer" Rasheed 
Country 
Unit N/A 
Flying F-16s from 2002 
Viper Hours 2200 



F-16 Flying Hours
2,000 Hours #524 on the 2K list 
Unit 11th squadron "Arrows" [Unit History] 
Date 7 February 2013 
Comment 
1,000 Hours #2259 on the 1K list 
Unit 11th squadron "Arrows" [Unit History] 
Date 9 September 2008 
Comment


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## fatman17

*F-16 Service Life.*

Service life, just like maneuver limits, is what ever the customer specifies. If the USAF asks (and pays) for an 8,000 hour F-16, that is what General Dynamics and Lockheed Martin will sell to them. An airplane does not have a longer service life because it has structural improvement. It has improved structure because the USAF wanted longer service life. In other words, the requirement comes first, then the structure is designed to meet the requirement, the same as for g limits. 

Another point about service life is the design life is tied to a design usage. For example, the F-16 8000 hour life is only guaranteed if the airplane is flown according to the design usage. The design usage is a highly detailed spec of mission types (air to air, air to ground, ferry, FCF, CAP, etc. (11 different types if I remember right)), mission segments (TO, climb, cruise, descent, etc.), external store loading, mach/altitude, load factor, blah blah. This design usage spectrum is randomized and applied to the structural analysis of durability-critical structure and to a durability laboratory test of a full scale airframe. For an 8000 hour life, the analysis and test is for 16000 hours, which is a durability ground rule (Service Life = 1/2 of analysis and test). 

The usage of every USAF (and some others also) F-16 is monitored during its lifetime and compared to the design usage, so that inspection intervals can be established. If the usage is more severe than design, inspection intervals are shorter and vice versa. 
The original design usage spec (1975) was weighted toward air to air usage, but when the usage tracking data began to come in, it was found that actual usage was heavily air to ground. Some airplane components (wing hardpoints, landing gear for example) were more heavily loaded as a result, so their inspection intervals had to be shortened. So the basic idea is that if you use the airplane in a more severe way than it is designed, it won't last as long (just like you and me!). 

All of this actual usage data was then used for analysis and test of later blocks of the F-16. 

F-16.net forum

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## araz

Last Hope said:


> Two possible reasons, delay in release of funds to AFFDP or the issue on WS-10.



Maybe the capabilities on offer. we are broke and there is no debating that but the real million dollar question is what the comparative analysis is of the equipment on offer. The lockmart team have previously boasted that they have never lost out on a fair competition .
Araz


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## fatman17

the 2 congressional approvals the ACM is hinting at are;

1. approval by Bush admn to release 28 F-16A/B to PK - 14 delivered, 14 pending.....
2. approval by Bush admn to sell 36 F-16C/D to PK - 18 delivered, option for 18 not utilized at that time. what is the status of this option for 18 additional is open to debate.

finally will the Obama admn honour these committments....

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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> the 2 congressional approvals the ACM is hinting at are;
> 
> 1. approval by Bush admn to release 28 F-16A/B to PK - 14 delivered, 14 pending.....
> 2. approval by Bush admn to sell 36 F-16C/D to PK - 18 delivered, option for 18 not utilized at that time. what is the status of this option for 18 additional is open to debate.
> 
> 
> 
> finally will the Obama admn honour these committments....



and why so sir ? why not j-10b ? USA is leaving afg next year and we all know what next

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## GURU DUTT

Imran Khan said:


> and why so sir ? why not j-10b ? USA is leaving afg next year and we all know what next



he he he mamoo salaam & eid mubarak 

well USA is not going to leave afghanistan and they have clarriefied it and they are onli down sizing there force there as now they have land and carrier based drones to keep a grip on tallibunies

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## Dr. Strangelove

Imran Khan said:


> and why so sir ? why not j-10b ? USA is leaving afg next year and we all know what next



the reason is paf loves f 16s and j 10 b have engine issues and paf is not satisfied with it so they may go for more f16s from uncle sam


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> the 2 congressional approvals the ACM is hinting at are;
> 
> 1. approval by Bush admn to release 28 F-16A/B to PK - 14 delivered, 14 pending.....
> 2. approval by Bush admn to sell 36 F-16C/D to PK - 18 delivered, option for 18 not utilized at that time. what is the status of this option for 18 additional is open to debate.
> 
> finally will the Obama admn honour these committments....




Same as i mentioned earlier. But Congress has limited time as it's members are re-elected. Which means, as Obama has been there for already 5 years, the previous Congressional approval might have expired (As it was granted in 2006, which is 7 years ago.) However, if Pakistan can come up with 1.5-2 billion $ and hang it infront of Lockheed Martin, then Lockheed Martin will do the job of getting the congress to approve.


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## Imran Khan

GURU DUTT said:


> he he he mamoo salaam & eid mubarak
> 
> well USA is not going to leave afghanistan and they have clarriefied it and they are onli down sizing there force there as now they have land and carrier based drones to keep a grip on tallibunies


for drones they need pakistani help ? they use stealth drones over pakistan years and no one notice them in our open sky .

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## GURU DUTT

Imran Khan said:


> for drones they need pakistani help ? they use stealth drones over pakistan years and no one notice them in our open sky .



well bhai jaan the tech has improoved manyfold now and now they have capabillity to strike anywhere in afghanistan from there carriers in persian gulf sureli they will give you a squad or two of there surplus and obsolete F 16s in a way its good for us if you know what i mean


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## Imran Khan

wasm95 said:


> the reason is paf loves f 16s and j 10 b have engine issues and paf is not satisfied with it so they may go for more f16s from uncle sam



wait and see boss soon we have hard time for parts from uncle sam



GURU DUTT said:


> well bhai jaan the tech has improoved manyfold now and now they have capabillity to strike anywhere in afghanistan from there carriers in persian gulf sureli they will give you a squad or two of there surplus and obsolete F 16s in a way its good for us if you know what i mean



the question is why should they ? as we all know US did nothing for charity .

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## Luftwaffe

Imran Khan said:


> and why so sir ? why not j-10b ? USA is leaving afg next year and we all know what next



Known platform, in service, complete infrastructure and logistics pilots already Trained and taking the Training.

J-10B Engine is far from certified for the optimum levels PAF wants, platform is not matured, extra funds would require to established complete from the scratch infrastructure, training of the ground and air crew it would relatively take longer time to familiarize with the platform. Thought you knew that.

What do we lose we already have 63 of them if any sanctions are to affect they'll be affect all 63 not just the ones PAF is looking into possibly.

You inquiry is genuine but that is what PAF should have done post "nau giyarah" only the numbers in service around 45 should have been upgrade the rest of money should have gone to some other platform you can only complain from PAF but decision makers are sitting up there.


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## Dr. Strangelove

Imran Khan said:


> wait and see boss soon we have hard time for parts from uncle sam



I know it 
but it seems like paf doesnt cares or it will buy alot of spare parts


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## Imran Khan

wasm95 said:


> I know it
> but it seems like paf doesnt cares or it will buy alot of spare parts



as i think PAF should move on from this F-16 love now world is moving ahead F-16 is not last fighter jet on earth.

PAF always have low number best tech fighters we are losing it since last 10 years we got only 18 falcons its enough ?.

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## Dr. Strangelove

Imran Khan said:


> as i think PAF should move on from this F-16 love now world is moving ahead F-16 is not last fighter jet on earth.
> 
> PAF always have low number best tech fighters we are losing it since last 10 years we got only 18 falcons its enough ?.


 
U R right 
now tell this to PAF


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## araz

Imran Khan said:


> as i think PAF should move on from this F-16 love now world is moving ahead F-16 is not last fighter jet on earth.
> 
> PAF always have low number best tech fighters we are losing it since last 10 years we got only 18 falcons its enough ?.



So what do you recommend and from where are you going to get the bang for the buxk that the US products provide. And by the way where is the money for the infrastructure going to come from. Do you think EUor russian stuff will be cheap and without strings. The chinese ae not giving any handouts. So please tell me your strategic vision Sir Imran.
Araz

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## Argus Panoptes

araz said:


> So what do you recommend and *from where are you going to get the bang for the buxk that the US products provide*. And by the way where is the money for the infrastructure going to come from. Do you think EUor russian stuff will be cheap and without strings. The chinese ae not giving any handouts. So please tell me your strategic vision Sir Imran.
> Araz



"Bang for the Buck" means good Value, which is Quality/Cost ratio. US military products do not generally provide good value, since their acquisition and maintenance costs are usually much higher than most other comparable systems on offer. They do provide good performance too, but at a high cost.

F-16 have a big Bang. But the "bang for the buck" value is better for the JF-17 and with similar Chinese products.


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## Yzd Khalifa

fatman17 said:


> the 2 congressional approvals the ACM is hinting at are;
> 
> 1. approval by Bush admn to release 28 F-16A/B to PK - 14 delivered, 14 pending.....
> 2. approval by Bush admn to sell 36 F-16C/D to PK - 18 delivered, option for 18 not utilized at that time. what is the status of this option for 18 additional is open to debate.
> 
> finally will the Obama admn honour these committments....



Why have they delivered the other 14 F-16s yet?


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## Dr. Strangelove

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Why have they delivered the other 14 F-16s yet?



paid for them in early 90s then us imposed arm ebergo on us so they gave them to their navy


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## araz

Argus Panoptes said:


> "Bang for the Buck" means good Value, which is Quality/Cost ratio. US military products do not generally provide good value, since their acquisition and maintenance costs are usually much higher than most other comparable systems on offer. They do provide good performance too, but at a high cost.
> 
> F-16 have a big Bang. But the "bang for the buck" value is better for the JF-17 and with similar Chinese products.


Iwould disagree with you. Lots of PAF People would disagree with you.


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## Argus Panoptes

araz said:


> Iwould disagree with you. Lots of PAF People would disagree with you.



I would respect the difference of opinion, but Value is higher for JF-17. Performance and Quality is better for F-16. US stuff is great but costly. Chinese stuff is good or okay and much cheaper.


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## Yzd Khalifa

wasm95 said:


> paid for them in early 90s then us imposed arm ebergo on us so they gave them to their navy



You mean Bush senior, right? Well, I see what you mean, but the US should have delivered those F-16s when Pakistan announced that it will cooperate with the International community on the war on terror. This is a pure use of double standards.


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## Dr. Strangelove

Yzd Khalifa said:


> You mean Bush senior, right? Well, I see what you mean, but the US should have delivered those F-16s when Pakistan announced that it will cooperate with the International community on the war on terror. This is a pure use of double standards.



actually i think the deal was made during reagan tenure but as the soviets left afg. american again went nuts on nuclear issue

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## Yzd Khalifa

wasm95 said:


> actually i think the deal was made during reagan tenure but as the soviets left afg. american again went nuts on nuclear issue



Pakistan and KSA trolled the West till we to the bomb, there was nothing much they could have done to stop us

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## Viper0011.

Last Hope said:


> Over a dozen. @Najam Khan



Does that mean the program would still end by 2014? If not, how much of a delay are we talking?


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## araz

Argus Panoptes said:


> I would respect the difference of opinion, but Value is higher for JF-17. Performance and Quality is better for F-16. US stuff is great but costly. Chinese stuff is good or okay and much cheaper.



When you are looking to develop your force to counteract your adversary, you go through a decision loop based on the width of your pocket or your influence. The key example of the latter is Israel . we may have had some clout in the 80s but not any more. So we are left in the former group. Now what you want to have is a good mix of quality and quantity within yur budget. If you read my original response to imrans post from which we have digressed a long way you will realize that the post opns afew points of discussion. No one deniesthat the JFT is a little gem which has had input from PAF to cater to their needs. Being a small fighter its running costs might be lower but planes are not just about running costs. There is also the cost of setting up infra structure depot level maintenance m anpower training and time evolved in doing that .Then there are costs associated with learning about the strengths and weaknesses of the new machine and devising strategies to fight with it so that you try your best to utilize it in the sphere of its strength. If yoy now look at my post again you will see the logic behind it. You will need a newer platform to replace the 16s and if you add the costs together it will not only cost you more but set you back at least 2-3 yrs from the time you get the plane to the time you can rock n roll in it. Look at the equation again and you will see why the 16s still make sense for the PAF.I would love to mpve on to bigger and better but does your pocket allow you to do so? Therein lies the dilemma which PAF faces. FC20 Ais still not inducted in PLAAF. DO YOU REALLY WANT TO TAKE ON A BABY WITH TEETHING PROBLEMS OR TAKE ON A BIGGER BOY WHO IS ESTBLISHED AND PASSED THE POTTY TRAINING STAGE.
ARAZ

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## TOPGUN

I Agree with Araz 100% one must think and live in reality not fantasy simply ... one must balance out goods with what it can handle and get not many options are open and even they become where are the funds? so sticking with additional vipers is the way to go , getting the 14 vipers back which we paid for and then mlu them or get 18 more blk 52's or both options.


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## ssethii

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Pakistan and KSA trolled the West till* we* to the bomb, there was nothing much they could have done to stop *us*



care to explain the bold part?


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## Donatello

TOPGUN said:


> I Agree with Araz 100% one must think and live in reality not fantasy simply ... one must balance out goods with what it can handle and get not many options are open and even they become where are the funds? so sticking with additional vipers is the way to go , getting the 14 vipers back which we paid for and then mlu them or get 18 more blk 52's or both options.



We should definitely go for 14 F-16s and MLU them, But i am not so sure about purchasing new F-16s. If PAF does get 14 older ones, then we can have 4 full squadrons of F-16s.


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## Argus Panoptes

araz said:


> When you are looking to develop your force to counteract your adversary, you go through a decision loop based on the width of your pocket or your influence. The key example of the latter is Israel . we may have had some clout in the 80s but not any more. So we are left in the former group. Now what you want to have is a good mix of quality and quantity within yur budget. If you read my original response to imrans post from which we have digressed a long way you will realize that the post opns afew points of discussion. No one deniesthat the JFT is a little gem which has had input from PAF to cater to their needs. Being a small fighter its running costs might be lower but planes are not just about running costs. There is also the cost of setting up infra structure depot level maintenance m anpower training and time evolved in doing that .Then there are costs associated with learning about the strengths and weaknesses of the new machine and devising strategies to fight with it so that you try your best to utilize it in the sphere of its strength. If yoy now look at my post again you will see the logic behind it. You will need a newer platform to replace the 16s and if you add the costs together it will not only cost you more but set you back at least 2-3 yrs from the time you get the plane to the time you can rock n roll in it. Look at the equation again and you will see why the 16s still make sense for the PAF.I would love to mpve on to bigger and better but does your pocket allow you to do so? Therein lies the dilemma which PAF faces. FC20 Ais still not inducted in PLAAF. DO YOU REALLY WANT TO TAKE ON A BABY WITH TEETHING PROBLEMS OR TAKE ON A BIGGER BOY WHO IS ESTBLISHED AND PASSED THE POTTY TRAINING STAGE.
> ARAZ



Very good points. The F-16's performance I do understand, but perhaps we need to discuss the implications of what you just said above in the JF-17 thread. Is that program overhyped in what it can realistically deliver?


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## Nishan_101

So any news about 14 F-16s coming to Pakistan.


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## fatman17

*Pakistani Air Force F-16 Pilots*

38 Pakistani Air Force pilots have reached 1,000 flying hours or more in the F-16 Fighting Falcon so far. 

Gr.Capt. Aamir Masood 
(Updated: 3 Sep 2011) 
9 sqn 

Wg.Cmd. Ghazanfar Latif 
(Updated: 29 Dec 2012) 
9 sqn 

Wg.Cmd. Zulfiqar "Sidewinder" Ayub 
(Updated: 29 May 2010) 
9 sqn

Air.Cmd. Ashfaq Arain (Ret.) 
(Updated: 14 Sep 2011) 

Wg.Cmd. Umer "Archer" Rasheed 
(Updated: 17 Jul 2013) 
11 sqn 

Wg.Cmd. Tariq Zia 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 
9 sqn 

Wg.Cmd. Ali Naeem "Baaz" Zahoor 
(Updated: 13 Nov 2011) 
11 sqn 

Wg.Cmd. Irfan Ahmed 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Gp.Capt. Fauad Masud Hatmi 
(Updated: 22 Dec 2012) 
11 sqn | 9 sqn 

Wg.Cmd. M. Haseeb Paracha 
(Updated: 30 Aug 2010) 
9 sqn | 11 sqn 

Air.Vice.Marsh. Muhammad Iqbal 
(Updated: 22 Dec 2012) 
9 sqn 

Air.Vice.Marsh. Farhat Hussain Khan 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Air.Vice.Marsh. Athar Bokhari (Ret.) 
(Updated: 22 Dec 2012) 

Air.Cmd. Khaleel Ahmed 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 
11 sqn 

Sqn.Ldr. Haider "Tipu" Zaidi 
(Updated: 20 Feb 2011) 
11 sqn 

Wg.Cmd. Javad Saeed 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Sqn.Ldr. Khalid Mahmood (Ret.) 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Wg.Cmd. Bilal Hassan 
(Updated: 23 Sep 2012) 
9 sqn | J-7 

Wg.Cmd. Waqas Ahmed Sulehri 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Wg.Cmd. Hamza Jamil 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Sqn.Ldr. Omair Ahmed Najmi 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 
11 sqn 

Sqn.Ldr. Moin "Tornado" Rana 
(Updated: 29 May 2010) 

Sqn.Ldr. Khalid Mehmood 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 
9 sqn 

Sqn.Ldr. Azman Khalil 
(Updated: 1 Feb 2010) 

Sqn.Ldr. Asim "Mav-Slammer" Raja 
(Updated: 29 May 2010) 
9 sqn 

Sqn.Ldr. Nauman "Hornet" Ali 
(Updated: 29 Jan 2011) 
11 sqn 

Sqn.Ldr. Mustafa "Lightening" Orakzai 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2010) 
11 sqn 

Sqn.Ldr. Aftab "Viper-Phantom" Zia 
(Updated: 29 May 2010) 
11 sqn 

Sqn.Ldr. Shazib "Falcon" Mehmood 
(Updated: 21 Nov 2010) 
11 sqn 

Cdr. Sayed Muzaffar Ali (Ret.) 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 


Sqn.Ldr. Ali Asad Khan (Ret.) 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Sqn.Ldr. Muhammad Azam 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Wg.Cmd. Azher Hassan 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Air.Cmd. Razi Nawab (Ret.) 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Air.Cmd. Tariq Mahmud Ashraf 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Air.Vice.Marsh. Waseem-ud-din (Ret.) 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Air.Vice.Marsh. Mohammad Yousaf 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 

Sqn.Ldr. Syed Omer Shah 
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009) 
11 sqn 


F-16.net

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## SQ8

Argus Panoptes said:


> *Is that program overhyped in what it can realistically deliver?*



The hype is entirely based on unofficial sources and bad interpretation of statements. The Program's goal was/is to deliver a fighter that is as manoeuvrable as the F-16, has BVR capability, has certain survivability, is capable of multi-role operations and can carry and deliver both air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons in a single sortie, is easy to fly and maintain, and costs 1/3-1/2 of the newest F-16. It does all that. It was NEVER advertised to be low observable, never advertised to do airshow pirouettes, and never advertised to replace the role of the F-16 for the PAF. All that is based on what fanboys, overzealous press writers and other ill-informed sources put up.

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## Bilal.

Agreed for the first block, but saying that the design should not or would not evolve would into something else would also be wrong. As the threat perception change one would not develop completely new platform every time, instead, the same base platform can be utilised and evolved into a more capable weapon system. For instance, F-16 started out as a pure WVR light weight dog fighter and now a block 60 is anything but that...


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## MastanKhan

araz said:


> W
> 
> You will need a newer platform to replace the 16s and if you add the costs together it will not only cost you more but set you back at least 2-3 yrs from the time you get the plane to the time you can rock n roll in it. Look at the equation again and you will see why the 16s still make sense for the PAF.
> 
> Sir,
> 
> It would actually take 8---10 years to a start rocking and rolling in a new aircraft. When the first F16's came out---it took the u s pilots 4---8 years to really know the plane----with advanced electronics in the newer aircraft----even 8 to 10 years is not too long of a period----and this is case of an aircraft that is already developed----.
> 
> Not like the JF17----which would take 10---15 years to mature-----I remember when I stated a few years ago about the 5 to 10 years time for JF17 to mature----some "ST-UDS" on this board made fun of me----hey 'JACKS'---look who is laughing now.
> 
> PAF has missed the 'boat ride' in the earlier part of 2000----when I was a kid---my grandfather used to tell me----son---'grab the horse by its neck hair and you will ride on the back----but if it runs by you and you grab onto the tail----you will be dragged all your life----.
> 
> And I will say to myself---what is this 'stupid' old man saying---I am young and I am strong----I can get on top anytime----guess what----.
> 
> That is the story of the PAF---it has fallen behind---and it was not for lack of funds----it was a lack of judgmental call----. There is no catching up now----untill and unless they come up with a better air to air BVR missile than their counter parts and have 350---400 4th gen + aircraft.
> 
> If you don't have money---then find ways to make peace----. One who fights and runs away---will live to fight another day---.

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## raazh

MastanKhan said:


> PAF has missed the 'boat ride' in the earlier part of 2000



What boat ride are you referring to??


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## MastanKhan

raazh said:


> What boat ride are you referring to??




Sir,

Being on this board---since 2009---if you don't know it by now---then you too missed the boat. No pun intended.


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## Viper0011.

MastanKhan said:


> araz said:
> 
> 
> 
> It would actually take 8---10 years to a start rocking and rolling in a new aircraft. When the first F16's came out---it took the u s pilots 4---8 years to really know the plane-
> 
> Not like the JF17----which would take 10---15 years to mature.
> 
> PAF has missed the 'boat ride' in the earlier part of 2000
> 
> And have 350---400 4th gen + aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to answer the above bullets in order:
> 
> 1) 8-10 years was the case when the technology wasn't so advanced and you'd have to fly the aircraft physically to learn its characteristics. Plus if you had a few hundred pilots in the line for training on a new platform, the pilot to the twin seater trainer would be a lot as the trainer would be much less in numbers. So it took that long. Now, you have simulators that give you about 80-85% real flying experience. So you are trained MUCH faster. So take about 3 years average for a batch of pilots to train on all flight envelop, both through the simulator and the physical jet flying. In PAF's case, I'd go to 4-5 years max. Changes being made to the plane are a whole different issue though.
> 
> 2) JFT will only have two advanced blocks AFAIK. So, its maturity will end by 2018 I think as it's supposed to be forming a lower tier (which is currently being called Mid Tier due to the lack of another jet that would be higher end like FC-20).
> 
> 3) What Boat Ride are you referring to? Please explain. PAF definitely has some catching up to do due to sanctions during the 90's. But it is doing good to catch up and I think if the funds were available, it would've caught up for the most part. I'd give it 3-5 more years if the new gov't does what its supposed to do to kick start the economy. But do explain what Boat Ride please. I'm curious to know.
> 
> 4) I agree with the number. The PAF as a defensive arm, needs about 400 3.5 - 4th gen jets with BVR's at the least.
Click to expand...

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## araz

Aurangzeb Saheb.
The above post has wrongly been attributed to me. It belongs to mastan khan.I would therefore leave it to him to answer it.On a diferent note I feelthat PAF s problem has caused it to always think out of the box.It is in a hurry to modernize its fleet which is obsolete barring the16s.The ineptnese of the previousgovernment and the consequent dip in the economy , and the lack of trust in the continuing support of the US has forcd it to look at options which are perhaps not as matured as it would have wanted it to be. The JFT has also suffered as it does not gain the support Of PL.AF. I suspect that and its desire to have weaponry from multiple sources has resulted in the weapons integration being done in Pakistan. I suspect in the long run it will stand us in good stead with further developments. Present thawing of Indo Pak relations has given us the time to do so. However future acquisitions would place us in a very difficult position. I dont think that FC20 NOW is the answer and therefore we will get more Bl.52s and oldee planes for MLU if uncle sam plays ball. If he does not--I think then we will do what we have done with the JFTand induct FC20 as it becomes available or some other platform as the chinese make it acailable to us. I think the situation heee is fluid and keeps changing in light of what our neighbour does with theifMMRCA and its final specs. It is not ideal to react but wedont have the resources to have the luxury of going proactive. 
Araz


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## Najam Khan

Its too early to say but AmeriKees are finally agreeing to loose the 'alleged strings' on F-16s. With passage of time, rebuild of US trust on PAF (and arrival of similar/advance technology in the region Air Forces) the leniency shall increase. I can-not comment on details; but the F-16s image created by our fellow Pakistani and neighbour media-men about future of these machines shall prove wrong...provided that Pakistan continues to keep good relations with US. 

US Govt. was strict about use of these 18 new machines at the time of their arrival in 2010; now in 3 years everything has gone by the book and hopefully clean transition and use of these machines will continue to open logistic support of US weapons systems to Pakistan. PAF should take back those 14 old F-16 A/B airframes (at least for spares).

In the mean time good relations with US and maturity of JF-17 program remains the only solution for PAF.

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## nangyale

Najam Khan said:


> Its too early to say but AmeriKees are finally agreeing to loose the 'alleged strings' on F-16s. With passage of time, rebuild of US trust on PAF (and arrival of similar/advance technology in the region Air Forces) the leniency shall increase. I can-not comment on details; but the F-16s image created by our fellow Pakistani and neighbour media-men about future of these machines shall prove wrong...provided that Pakistan continues to keep good relations with US.
> 
> US Govt. was strict about use of these 18 new machines at the time of their arrival in 2010; now in 3 years everything has gone by the book and hopefully clean transition and use of these machines will continue to open logistic support of US weapons systems to Pakistan. PAF should take back those 14 old F-16 A/B airframes (at least for spares).
> 
> In the mean time good relations with US and maturity of JF-17 program remains the only solution for PAF.



I wouldn't emphaise the good relations so much. It's not like the F-16 is our only option, JF-17 may be slightly underpowered but it more than makes up for that by being strings free so we can put any weapon that we need. Going further more and more Chinese platforms are maturing and we will be inducting more of them. 
What good would be any aircrafts if we have to compromise on our sovereignty so that we stay in the good books of uncle Sam. F-16 is not an end in itself it's a tool towards an end i-e Pakistani pride and freedom.


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## Najam Khan

nangyale said:


> I wouldn't emphaise the good relations so much. It's not like the F-16 is our only option, JF-17 may be slightly underpowered but it more than makes up for that by being strings free so we can put any weapon that we need. Going further more and more Chinese platforms are maturing and we will be inducting more of them.
> What good would be any aircrafts if we have to compromise on our sovereignty so that we stay in the good books of uncle Sam. F-16 is not an end in itself it's a tool towards an end i-e Pakistani pride and freedom.



I like the speech about 'sovereignty and pride'...but 23 years have been since last sanctions on Pakistan; nothing has changed so far. You military is in-love with US weapon systems. Chinese systems are good but your adversaries and pacing up really fast. To get close you need BIG procurement of new systems (doesn't matter Chinese or non-Chinese) and for that you need time (read years) to master them and MONEY. Go through Araz's posts in previous 2 pages for detail.

Sadly Pakistan neither has time nor money; so all we can do put all ambitions on JF-17 program. While doing so we should understand our weaknesses, limitations and plan our economic future...Self reliance in economy is the way out. Self reliance in weapons is nothing when you don't have money to drive production lines. 

Today we cannot simply pull our chest out in front of west, Why? Because of weak economy and poor Foreign policy. If these changes are not made then this good speech about 'sovereignty and pride' is of no use.

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## nangyale

Najam Khan said:


> I like the speech about 'sovereignty and pride'...but 23 years have been since last sanctions on Pakistan; nothing has changed so far. You military is in-love with US weapon systems. Chinese systems are good but your adversaries and pacing up really fast. To get close you need BIG procurement of new systems (doesn't matter Chinese or non-Chinese) and for that you need time (read years) to master them and MONEY. Go through Araz's posts in previous 2 pages for detail.
> 
> Sadly Pakistan neither has time nor money; so all we can do put all ambitions on JF-17 program. While doing so we should understand our weaknesses, limitations and plan our economic future...Self reliance in economy is the way out. Self reliance in weapons is nothing when you don't have money to drive production lines.
> 
> Today we cannot simply pull our chest out in front of west, Why? Because of weak economy and poor Foreign policy. If these changes are not made then this good speech about 'sovereignty and pride' is of no use.



I agree with you a hundred percent that first thing that needs to improve is the economy, then we can afford more, be that Chinese Western or Russian equipment. But I still don't understand the love affair with all things American even if that means that you have to compromise on your core interests. 
The sanctions were lifted not 23 years ago, but only after the US needed us for their war in Afghanistan circa 2001/02. and where is the guarantee that it won't be back once they get all their troops out. I am not into conspiracy theories about bugs but what happens when there is an actual war and uncle Sam imposes sanctions again. I know a lot of people here think that India Pakistan wars will always be short and we will have enough spares for a short war after that "Allah malik hai". But what if the next war is not a short war but rather a sea blockade and it turns into an Air-Sea battle which run for months. How are you gona operate all those lovely 16s when the stores are depleted. We can still operate the indigenous systems. 
My emphasis is that you may think that F-16 is really good and I do believe that our pilots are really well trained with this system, but if we can't use it when things turn ugly, what good is having it. 
If it's only purpose is to drop bombs inside our territory, then that job can be by an F-6 as well, if it's job is to just scare an adversary I would rather do that with paper models of F-22.

Regards


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## Chak Bamu

I hope you understand what "Allah Malik Hai" really means in this context?

On Topic:
I am sure there is more US hardware (F-16) for us in future. US would not wish to lose influence and relevance as far as Pakistan is concerned. They have seen enough erosion as it is and they would not want us completely in the Chinese camp. Dropping US totally as a supplier would not be sensible policy for us, just as letting us drift totally into Chinese sphere of influence would not be a sensible policy for US. Unless of course there are some firm plans that discount Pakistan as a viable state; and in that case all bets are off.


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## araz

nangyale said:


> I wouldn't emphaise the good relations so much. It's not like the F-16 is our only option, JF-17 may be slightly underpowered but it more than makes up for that by being strings free so we can put any weapon that we need. Going further more and more Chinese platforms are maturing and we will be inducting more of them.
> What good would be any aircrafts if we have to compromise on our sovereignty so that we stay in the good books of uncle Sam. F-16 is not an end in itself it's a tool towards an end i-e Pakistani pride and freedom.



Please read my detailed posts on the subject of this"love of PAFfor US machines". It will surely answer your question. This topic has been visited to death and we need to be practical rather than emotional especially since our pockets are also empty. To date there ia nothing that will gove us the parity that we so wish for without breaking the bank other than the F16s. You can always ride the aman ki asha and bend down to be on the receivijg end or hold on to your integrity and deal for peace from a position of parity or neAr parity.


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## Argus Panoptes

araz said:


> Please read my detailed posts on the subject of this"love of PAFfor US machines". It will surely answer your question. This topic has been visited to death and we need to be practical rather than emotional especially since our pockets are also empty. To date there ia nothing that will gove us the parity that we so wish for without breaking the bank other than the F16s. You can always ride the aman ki asha and bend down to be on the receivijg end or *hold on to your integrity and deal for peace from a position of parity or neAr parity.*



Parity or near parity in conventional forces is going to be nearly impossible for the foreseeable future Sir. What will prevent us from merely bending our knees rather than being a complete pushover will be our nuclear weapons. We better take care of them.


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## araz

Argus Panoptes said:


> Parity or near parity in conventional forces is going to be nearly impossible for the foreseeable future Sir. What will prevent us from merely bending our knees rather than being a complete pushover will be our nuclear weapons. We better take care of them.



in understand parity in the context of deterrance rather than sheer numbers. A force comprising of 250-300 BVR laden 4th genration fighters flown by dedicated and trained professionals will be a force to reckon with for any AF. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HAVING US vs CHINESE NEW PLATFORM IN THIS CONTEXT NEEDS TO BE ANALYZED BY YOU GUYS VEFORE YOU UNDERSTAND WHERE I AM COMING FROM. We must understand that the ground reAlities are not known to anyone of us. The US may or mAy not play ball with us. All I am statkng is under ideaL situation which as we well know hardly wver exists for Pakistan.
The situation of your nukes is again another story. If you are thinking about using them then you are entering a MAD scenario which is another exteeme.However you will be in a difficult situation if the enemy decides to call your bluff one of these days. Do we actually have the balls to push the buttons and ensure the death of millions of people in the subsequent cascade. I any case you have then lost everything .
Araz


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## Argus Panoptes

araz said:


> in understand parity in the context of deterrance rather than sheer numbers. A force comprising of 250-300 BVR laden 4th genration fighters flown by dedicated and trained professionals will be a force to reckon with for any AF. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HAVING US vs CHINESE NEW PLATFORM IN THIS CONTEXT NEEDS TO BE ANALYZED BY YOU GUYS VEFORE YOU UNDERSTAND WHERE I AM COMING FROM. We must understand that the ground reAlities are not known to anyone of us. The US may or mAy not play ball with us. All I am statkng is under ideaL situation which as we well know hardly wver exists for Pakistan.
> The situation of your nukes is again another story. If you are thinking about using them then you are entering a MAD scenario which is another exteeme.However you will be in a difficult situation if the enemy decides to call your bluff one of these days. Do we actually have the balls to push the buttons and ensure the death of millions of people in the subsequent cascade. I any case you have then lost everything .
> Araz



Yes Sir, I appreciate what you are saying. The bottom line remains that desperation is likely to set in as we slowly but surely run out of viable options. Which we are. At a rapid rate.


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## araz

Argus Panoptes said:


> Yes Sir, I appreciate what you are saying. The bottom line remains that desperation is likely to set in as we slowly but surely run out of viable options. Which we are. At a rapid rate.



My friend I am ever hopeful of the mercy and grace of AllahSWT. Where a door closes he will open a new one. We are in this sorry state because of our poor leadership and morbid lack of self discipline. Our problems are difficult but not insurmountable. Things aee getting tough for our neighbours a well. The MMRCA accord is delayed and unlikely to be signed this yr or even next.We desperately need to solve the problems afflicting our economy and restore peace. If we can do these 2 things we will start seeing some improvements. Meanwhile new opportunities will arise. I like you dont trusu the Us but this us a question of a logical solution to a difficult problem with many permutations which we dont hve answers to.
Araz

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## Viper0011.

araz said:


> I think the situation heee is fluid and keeps changing in light of what our neighbour does with theifMMRCA and its final specs. It is not ideal to react but wedont have the resources to have the luxury of going proactive.
> Araz


What do you do in the "fluid situation" scenario? You get the top tier product and let it be. Because no matter how fluid the situation be, you can't go wrong with a top tier machine. I've said it a million times. Now is the time to introduce a few squads of J11 with J-16's avionics as they are more advanced. Now matter how fluid or changing the situation may be, you can't go wrong with it. FC-20 should be scraped. It's old news

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## Nishan_101

Donatello said:


> We should definitely go for 14 F-16s and MLU them, But i am not so sure about purchasing new F-16s. If PAF does get 14 older ones, then we can have 4 full squadrons of F-16s.



So what you and other seniro member thinks?

That why did PAF got there 28 F-16s from US in 2002 when negotiating and about 30-50 F-16s Block-52 along with weapons deal.

Is it just because of Pakistan weak Govt. and some other problems.???


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## MastanKhan

orangzaib said:


> MastanKhan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to answer the above bullets in order:
> 
> 1) 8-10 years was the case when the technology wasn't so advanced and you'd have to fly the aircraft physically to learn its characteristics. Plus if you had a few hundred pilots in the line for training on a new platform, the pilot to the twin seater trainer would be a lot as the trainer would be much less in numbers. So it took that long. Now, you have simulators that give you about 80-85% real flying experience. So you are trained MUCH faster. So take about 3 years average for a batch of pilots to train on all flight envelop, both through the simulator and the physical jet flying. In PAF's case, I'd go to 4-5 years max. Changes being made to the plane are a whole different issue though.
> 
> 2) JFT will only have two advanced blocks AFAIK. So, its maturity will end by 2018 I think as it's supposed to be forming a lower tier (which is currently being called Mid Tier due to the lack of another jet that would be higher end like FC-20).
> 
> 3) What Boat Ride are you referring to? Please explain. PAF definitely has some catching up to do due to sanctions during the 90's. But it is doing good to catch up and I think if the funds were available, it would've caught up for the most part. I'd give it 3-5 more years if the new gov't does what its supposed to do to kick start the economy. But do explain what Boat Ride please. I'm curious to know.
> 
> 4) I agree with the number. The PAF as a defensive arm, needs about 400 3.5 - 4th gen jets with BVR's at the least.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I appreciate your answer---but here is the thing---the more the things change---the more they stay the same. A different kind of aircraft than the F16---with newer technology---it will be the same---8----10 years. You have to learn to know the aircraft---you have to learn what it can do for you and you have to learn how you can manipulate it and get the best out of it---a new platform---if it is---.
> 
> Is it close to 5 years now and the jf17 is barely scraping the ground strike capabilities---its full ground strike capabilities will be out in another 3---5 years---now let alone the bvr----. You have to write the game plan---you have to write the 'playbook'---operational manual---.
> 
> As for missing the boat---this organization aka PAF was ill prepared to make any procurement in case sanctions were lifted---. There should have been programs active in the air force which would have looked into fast trak purchases in case the u s would lift the sanctions in the 90's----mean to say---be ready for the moment.
> 
> 9/11 was the moment----till 2005---. PAF put too much emphasis on the joint venture of jf17 and fc20----putting up chicken hawks to fight the eagles---. It does not work when the eagles out number you as well.
> 
> You have to fight the enemy with what the enemy fears the most---not with what you think they may fear---. The enemy is all wrapped up in su30----so what is to counter it----2 to 3 sqdrn's of J11's---minimal.
> 
> The purpose of any major weapons system is not to win the war---but---rather bring the enemy to the peace table---. If your weapons syetms cannot do those things---then the weapons system is handicapped.
Click to expand...

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## araz

orangzaib said:


> What do you do in the "fluid situation" scenario? You get the top tier product and let it be. Because no matter how fluid the situation be, you can't go wrong with a top tier machine. I've said it a million times. Now is the time to introduce a few squads of J11 with J-16's avionics as they are more advanced. Now matter how fluid or changing the situation may be, you can't go wrong with it. FC-20 should be scraped. It's old news



Iagree with you on the J10 but still feel that we need to bide our time with more F16s. Post 2020-25, we may be able to go for the chinese 5th gen. fighter which would be a better choice if we are going down the dual engine fghter route. The problem is that the chinese products are still not top notch and need time to mature. Buying J16 leaves you with the same disadvantage that J10 does. So although I see the logic behind it I have to disagree on grounds of lack of maturity of the equipment. It may become Plan B if PlanA does not work but my thinking is that this is the way the PAF buffs would suggest we go on pure financial and other considerations. From the US perspective they would not hesitate to sell us tech they have sold before.
Araz

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## shanixee

MastanKhan said:


> orangzaib said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I appreciate your answer---but here is the thing---the more the things change---the more they stay the same. A different kind of aircraft than the F16---with newer technology---it will be the same---8----10 years. You have to learn to know the aircraft---you have to learn what it can do for you and you have to learn how you can manipulate it and get the best out of it---a new platform---if it is---.
> 
> Is it close to 5 years now and the jf17 is barely scraping the ground strike capabilities---its full ground strike capabilities will be out in another 3---5 years---now let alone the bvr----. You have to write the game plan---you have to write the 'playbook'---operational manual---.
> 
> As for missing the boat---this organization aka PAF was ill prepared to make any procurement in case sanctions were lifted---. There should have been programs active in the air force which would have looked into fast trak purchases in case the u s would lift the sanctions in the 90's----mean to say---be ready for the moment.
> 
> 9/11 was the moment----till 2005---. PAF put too much emphasis on the joint venture of jf17 and fc20----putting up chicken hawks to fight the eagles---. It does not work when the eagles out number you as well.
> 
> You have to fight the enemy with what the enemy fears the most---not with what you think they may fear---. The enemy is all wrapped up in su30----so what is to counter it----2 to 3 sqdrn's of J11's---minimal.
> 
> The purpose of any major weapons system is not to win the war---but---rather bring the enemy to the peace table---. If your weapons syetms cannot do those things---then the weapons system is handicapped.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree most of the stuff not fully because your giving very hardline view about capabilities...it gives an impression of dooms day scenario..
Click to expand...


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## Dr. Strangelove

how much a single f 16 block 52 costs only the aircraft not including spares and weapons


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## SQ8

wasm95 said:


> how much a single f 16 block 52 costs only the aircraft not including spares and weapons



I would suggest the search function on the top right as it has been posted before. 
However you can ascertain a bit from here using a bit of basic mathematics and common sense.
$5.1B Proposed Sales, Upgrades, Weapons Pakistan&#8217;s F-16s

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## nangyale

araz said:


> Please read my detailed posts on the subject of this"love of PAFfor US machines". It will surely answer your question. This topic has been visited to death and we need to be practical rather than emotional especially since our pockets are also empty. To date there ia nothing that will gove us the parity that we so wish for without breaking the bank other than the F16s. You can always ride the aman ki asha and bend down to be on the receivijg end or hold on to your integrity and deal for peace from a position of parity or neAr parity.



My post was in response to 6777 where the emphasis was for staying in the goods book of uncle Sam so that we can have more freedom with the 16s. Now I have been through your previous posts and I understand your and MastanKhan's point that it takes ages to get to grips with such a complicated system as a modern jet fighter and that Pakistani pilots love the 16s. 
But there is time and place for everything, when the F16s were first introduced America was completely on the side of Pakistan and the resistance against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan they were more than happy to see their aircrafts bring down Soviet jets and were willing to give all assistance to Pakistan in this regard, granted at first it required some convincing but when they got on board they were on board for the full ride. 
Now that time is long gone and today there is a big gulf between the aspirations of Pakistani people and the policies of USA (I didn't say Pakistani government on purpose as sometimes that is in conflict with the mood of the nation). What that means is that either Pakistan go against what its people want and where its long term interests lies or sooner or latter the sanctions will return. and when they do those F-16 will become a lot more difficult to operate and maintain. 
So I am not here talking about your "aman ki asha" but what is in the interest of Pakistan not just tomorrow but 5 or 10 years down the line as well.


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## Viper0011.

araz said:


> I agree with you on the J10 but still feel that we need to bide our time with more F16s. Post 2020-25, we may be able to go for the chinese 5th gen. Araz



THAT is the problem right there. Do you really think that militarily stronger India will wait and sit on their as* for Pakistan's economy to get kicked off and for it to become much stronger all the way till 2020 - 25? Look around you and see what's happening. The Indians have realized that they missed 2008. If they let the current democratically elected gov't 5 years, Pakistan will become a different animal and much more stronger to deal with both militarily and economically. Thus, the current situation as it is easy to deal with Pakistan vs. when it becomes a bigger economical and military power. So my man, time is going against you guys. Introduce bigger and better platforms and that may not be the best option. But it'll definitely keep the enemy at bay. It created 'equally focked' scenario and no one wants to be equally f'd!


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## Viper0011.

MastanKhan said:


> orangzaib said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it close to 5 years now and the jf17 is barely scraping the ground strike capabilities---its full ground strike capabilities will be out in another 3---5 years---now let alone the bvr----. You have to write the game plan---you have to write the 'playbook'---operational manual---.
> 
> As for missing the boat---this organization aka PAF was ill prepared to make any procurement in case sanctions were lifted.
> 
> 9/11 was the moment----till 2005---. PAF put too much emphasis on the joint venture of jf17 and fc20----putting up chicken hawks to fight the eagles---. It does not work when the eagles out number you as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with your last part. The J-11's and to bring the enemy to the negotiation table. The rest, I don't agree with. The JFT's taking too long not because of the 'lengthy time' it takes to operationalize the equipment. It is because the program was stopped and started many times due to financials, engine issues with the Russians, issues in setting up manufacturing in Pakistan, etc, etc. The demand and supply and then integration wasn't synching up and rightfully so. Everything was happening for the first time and the engines are still a dependency on Russia!
> 
> Also, with the IMF knocking on your door and international community trying to declare Pakistan as a 'rogue state', add a dictator running the country into the equation and it becomes even more darker. I can't imagine how you can really write a 'play book' and call the 'plays'... In this scenario, you are too busy surviving. Plus, the west wasn't happy with Pakistan so no one would offer advance weapons even after Pakistan helping NATO. Last and one of the most critical ones...$$...combine all the previous items I listed and you can see what was going on. Defense articles from the West isn't like buying chocolates. It's a MUCH more difficult process, especially if a country with the reputation of Pakistan is requesting it. Not trying to bash Pakistan, just stating the reality unfortunately.
Click to expand...

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## raazh

MastanKhan said:


> As for missing the boat---this organization aka PAF was ill prepared to make any procurement in case sanctions were lifted---. There should have been programs active in the air force which would have looked into fast trak purchases in case the u s would lift the sanctions in the 90's----mean to say---be ready for the moment.



To procure any weapon system is not a one step, one window operation. And even if PAF is put on a standby notice of sanction free procurement; still the OEM is not waiting for your PO with the stock ready for delivery. There are multiple levels of approvals needed by every OEM from their own countries for export of Strategic weapons which take a lot of time. Not to mention how will you support a system after that window of opportunity is closed ?? Where will you get the spares etc etc ?? We are lucky that we had F16's and Mirages; two of the most widely used and operated systems in the world, to maintain in the 90's. 

And by the way PAF officials did and do evaluate different crafts from time to time which are able to meet our requirements but unfortunately our economy or relations do not allow us to exercise those idealistic solutions. And yes, if you give unlimited time and money to any TOM, DICK and HARRY he can also get you squadrons of F22, F35 or F15's. Its not that simple for us now, is it??

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## GURU DUTT

raazh said:


> To procure any weapon system is not a one step, one window operation. And even if PAF is put on a standby notice of sanction free procurement; still the OEM is not waiting for your PO with the stock ready for delivery. There are multiple levels of approvals needed by every OEM from their own countries for export of Strategic weapons which take a lot of time. Not to mention how will you support a system after that window of opportunity is closed ?? Where will you get the spares etc etc ?? We are lucky that we had F16's and Mirages; two of the most widely used and operated systems in the world, to maintain in the 90's.
> 
> And by the way PAF officials did and do evaluate different crafts from time to time which are able to meet our requirements but unfortunately our economy or relations do not allow us to exercise those idealistic solutions. And yes, if you give unlimited time and money to any TOM, DICK and HARRY he can also get you squadrons of F22, F35 or F15's. Its not that simple for us now, is it??


you are right sir but whos responsible for this situtation of pakistan ?

as mastan saheb said in some other thread about missing the boat il say pakistan missed it not once but multiple times had you played your cards right in the end of soviet war and reigned in your strategick assets and shown restrain while doing kargil and sponsring mujahideens in kashmir and been loyal friend to USA and used your levrage to bring a speedi end to al queda and and worked on promoting peace and trade in afghanistan and trade with central asia from as earli as say 2002 pakistan would right 
now be enjoying full supoprt even better than say israel and your economy would be more powerfull than India and pakistan comined but you had the ummah and teach india a lesson for 1971 which brought you here and unfortunateli now there is no hope of any F16 even if USA wants it wont give you any latest tech as its industry wont be happy giving there trade secrets to china....hope u get the point sir


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## araz

orangzaib said:


> THAT is the problem right there. Do you really think that militarily stronger India will wait and sit on their as* for Pakistan's economy to get kicked off and for it to become much stronger all the way till 2020 - 25? Look around you and see what's happening. The Indians have realized that they missed 2008. If they let the current democratically elected gov't 5 years, Pakistan will become a different animal and much more stronger to deal with both militarily and economically. Thus, the current situation as it is easy to deal with Pakistan vs. when it becomes a bigger economical and military power. So my man, time is going against you guys. Introduce bigger and better platforms and that may not be the best option. But it'll definitely keep the enemy at bay. It created 'equally focked' scenario and no one wants to be equally f'd!



Aurangzeb.
I never intended for pakistan to sit on its meagre behind and do nothing. If you think India is going to get us NOW, then we are doomed irrespective of how you look at it. Even if we signed a contract today I need not convey to you the latency between completion of negotiations, delivery of palnes getting the manpower sorted for it and learning the inns and outs of the new plane develop a strategy of fighting with it . Please also understand thatthe basic characteristics of the J11/16 will be well known to our adversary as they have had MKIs for yonks. I had suggested that we buy more F16s and get some more for MLU(110-120 in all,, current and new) AND THEN bide our time. I dont need to tell you the advantage of doing that form the economic and training and integration POV. Even if we get everything up and running by 2016 this would be a much better integrated system than going for a new platform. 
Araz


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## rockstarIN

People who are advocating PAF to go for J-11.

Will it be the same situation like IAF getting 10-16 F-16s against PAF which have nearly 100+ with more than 2 decades of flying experience?


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## SQ8

rockstarIN said:


> People who are advocating PAF to go for J-11.
> 
> Will it be the same situation like IAF getting 10-16 F-16s against PAF which have nearly 100+ with more than 2 decades of flying experience?



Not exactly, After all. Each force has their own ideas of employment and develops slightly different tactics based on their understanding the capabilities of the system. 
Case in point, IAF's usage of the Jaguar may be quite different or employ different attack tactics as compared to how the RAF fielded their aircraft.
Otherwise the Greeks and Turks would not be going at it against each other.

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## rockstarIN

Oscar said:


> Not exactly, After all. Each force has their own ideas of employment and develops slightly different tactics based on their understanding the capabilities of the system.
> Case in point, IAF's usage of the Jaguar may be quite different or employ different attack tactics as compared to how the RAF fielded their aircraft.
> Otherwise the Greeks and Turks would not be going at it against each other.



Does it make sense of adding a new platform in low numbers, which is known to the enemy very well *at the cost of * an existing experienced battle proved system. It does make sense if PAF go for 50+ jets.


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## SQ8

rockstarIN said:


> Does it make sense of adding a new platform in low numbers, which is known to the enemy very well *at the cost of * an existing experienced battle proved system. It does make sense if PAF go for 50+ jets.



Low numbers are pointless, logistical headaches will kill it. Even though the PAF's initial induction of mirages was a token number as such.

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## MastanKhan

raazh said:


> To procure any weapon system is not a one step, one window operation. And even if PAF is put on a standby notice of sanction free procurement; still the OEM is not waiting for your PO with the stock ready for delivery. There are multiple levels of approvals needed by every OEM from their own countries for export of Strategic weapons which take a lot of time. Not to mention how will you support a system after that window of opportunity is closed ?? Where will you get the spares etc etc ?? We are lucky that we had F16's and Mirages; two of the most widely used and operated systems in the world, to maintain in the 90's.
> 
> And by the way PAF officials did and do evaluate different crafts from time to time which are able to meet our requirements but unfortunately our economy or relations do not allow us to exercise those idealistic solutions. And yes, if you give unlimited time and money to any TOM, DICK and HARRY he can also get you squadrons of F22, F35 or F15's. Its not that simple for us now, is it??




Sir,

You are way behind in this discussion----. You getting me riled up----. You are talking without knowing----. 

PAF did not place an order to purchase---not due to the shortage of funds in first half of 2000----because it believed that there would be peace with india----and it would be a wastage to buy any high tech aircraft.

From 9/11 till 2005 when the earthquake hit pakistan---there was no shortage of funds for paf----. 

So---in that time they were out stealing technology from Grippen and Rafale for their JF17. 

What sanction free procurements are you talking about---what fear of sanctions---should have gone and killed OBL and fixed you mental approach towards the U S----. The sanctions are due to mental issues that pakistanis have towards the u s----. They don't know how to deal with the u s----and they start crying about the games that the world powers play and sanctions----.

PAF was in a desperate shape on 9/11. IN AN ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC SHAPE---and still it was reluctant to procure any aircraft on fastrak----even though every nation was willing to----.It had 4 1/2 years to place an order----.

Kid I am close to my 60's----tell me something different about procurement.


Orangzeb,

Sir---it is still an 8 to 10 years minimum---has'nt changed---and won't be changing for awhile----. Young kids thinks that if they WILL IT STRONG ENOUGH---it happens. As much as the things change---so much they stay the same.

Play book was meant to be writing of the operational manual and fight / flight procedures for the new aircraft.

You guys can argue and prove whatever you may want to----but there is no short cut to the time.

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## Viper0011.

rockstarIN said:


> People who are advocating PAF to go for J-11.
> 
> Will it be the same situation like IAF getting 10-16 F-16s against PAF which have nearly 100+ with more than 2 decades of flying experience?



Your post makes no sense. Any jet being acquiring in 10 makes no sense. But Pakistan acquiring J-11 in about 4-6 squadrons will have upfront adaptation challenges and costs BUT it'll be a massive punch from all angles, including interception, air defense, ground attack, etc. 60 J-11's or heavy fighters equal to about 120 -16's firepower. BUT, if Pakistan is acquiring 100 -16's MLU'd or B-52, then I'd skip 60 J-11's in a heart beat. But if its like 20 -16's, then I'd go get a higher number of J-11's on even soft loans


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

9/11---pakistan barely had any aircraft that could 'fly' at that time. French were desperate to sell their rafale---otherwise the production line was coming to an end----. They tried their best to sell the M2K and then the rafale to pak---the french tried to sell the airbus to the pak as well---but PIA deceived france and europe over the purchase of airbus and went for boeing---on a fake promise of direct flight to the u s from pak.

Well direct flight to the u s would have happened if pak had kept their end of the promise---to crush the terrorists---but pakistan was popping out terrorists one after the other just like Rush Limbaugh was popping in Ibuprofens.

Pakistan gave everything away to the u s---but never got anything substantial back on a fastrak after 9/11---. The u s was willing to give---it just needed to be coaxed and manipulated to do that. 

The problem lay with the pakistani mindset----half of them wanted to make another vietnam for the u s---the other half were clueless what national interests were---and all of them were living the dream of islamic brotherhood----giving refuge to terrorists and murderers from foreign countries. And then people want to talk about sanctions---.

RAAZH---pakistan was in a unique position to overcome any and all multiple approvals once it signed up with the u s over WOT.

Collin Powell is on record in making a statement---paks can't make up their minds as to what they want---they ask for something one day---we get an approval from congress---they then change their minds and ask for something else---.

No american president has made time for any head of state from a 3rd world or 2nd world country on a sunday as George Bush did for Musharraf----.

These screw ups are of pakistans and pakistanis own making.

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> 9/11---pakistan barely had any aircraft that could 'fly' at that time. French were desperate to sell their rafale---otherwise the production line was coming to an end----. They tried their best to sell the M2K and then the rafale to pak---the french tried to sell the airbus to the pak as well---but PIA deceived france and europe over the purchase of airbus and went for boeing---on a fake promise of direct flight to the u s from pak.
> 
> Well direct flight to the u s would have happened if pak had kept their end of the promise---to crush the terrorists---but pakistan was popping out terrorists one after the other just like Rush Limbaugh was popping in Ibuprofens.
> 
> Pakistan gave everything away to the u s---but never got anything substantial back on a fastrak after 9/11---. The u s was willing to give---it just needed to be coaxed and manipulated to do that.
> 
> The problem lay with the pakistani mindset----half of them wanted to make another vietnam for the u s---the other half were clueless what national interests were---and all of them were living the dream of islamic brotherhood----giving refuge to terrorists and murderers from foreign countries. And then people want to talk about sanctions---.
> 
> RAAZH---pakistan was in a unique position to overcome any and all multiple approvals once it signed up with the u s over WOT.
> 
> Collin Powell is on record in making a statement---paks can't make up their minds as to what they want---they ask for something one day---we get an approval from congress---they then change their minds and ask for something else---.
> 
> No american president has made time for any head of state from a 3rd world or 2nd world country on a sunday as George Bush did for Musharraf----.
> 
> These screw ups are of pakistans and pakistanis own making.



sir, there must be something like a contengensy plan as a backup in case of PakisTan air force not getting the required numbers of F-16s ... ?? Logically there has to be one ! right ?


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## raazh

MastanKhan said:


> RAAZH---pakistan was in a unique position to overcome any and all multiple approvals once it signed up with the u s over WOT.
> 
> These screw ups are of pakistans and pakistanis own making.



I dont know what Entertainment channel you watch in CA but Pakistan was never in a comanding position to milk West for advance Aircrafts. Yes we have many issues and not in an ideal situation but talking specifically about the PAF, rest assured there was never such a scenario where we could have bought a Rafale or any other plane in a jiffy. There are rules, regulations and SOP's to be followed in every procurement. And they come after the Political and strategic relations. 

I know your mashAllah above 50; my best wishes and respects. However you might want to rethink on your views. Isnt there a tid bit of Chance that maybe you dont know everything. Maybe the guy in the driving seat knows better than one sitting 1000's ok Km away ?? I am sure they know how to Google the best plane in the world see who makes it and buy when they have money in pocket and permission from Govt.

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## Side-Winder

SELF DELETE


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## ziaulislam

if pakistan play their political cards right they should be able to get MLUs f-16s at a good price, especially once USAF starts retiring them in bulk around 2017-18
i think under current situation F-16s is the only option that makes any sence
J-10s would be great but for it to be effective the number should be above 50 even so , it would take nearly a 5-8 to get it fully operational


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## MastanKhan

raazh said:


> I dont know what Entertainment channel you watch in CA but Pakistan was never in a comanding position to milk West for advance Aircrafts. Yes we have many issues and not in an ideal situation but talking specifically about the PAF, rest assured there was never such a scenario where we could have bought a Rafale or any other plane in a jiffy. There are rules, regulations and SOP's to be followed in every procurement. And they come after the Political and strategic relations.
> 
> I know your mashAllah above 50; my best wishes and respects. However you might want to rethink on your views. Isnt there a tid bit of Chance that maybe you dont know everything. Maybe the guy in the driving seat knows better than one sitting 1000's ok Km away ?? I am sure they know how to Google the best plane in the world see who makes it and buy when they have money in pocket and permission from Govt.



Hi,

Thank you for your post----who is talking about in a jiffy----. There was 4 1/2 years times to make a decision. For an air force like paf---their analysts should have have been ready on a fastrak to place an order---.

PAF's procurement has been pathetic---their screwups have been momentuous-----. Sitting in the driver's seat and knowing more---my foot---this is the same air force that kept on paying for the F 16's after the sanctions---whereas it should have stopped paying and filed a lawsuit in a u s federal court for breach of contract.

This is the same airforce that went for the best air craft and left the 2ns best aircraft open for purchase by india---ie the mnirage 2 k.

If paf had opted for the Mirage 2 k right from the gitgo---it would have done a coupe de grace on IAF. THe u s was not selling F16's to the indians at that time---and with paf going for the m2k---indians would have opted out.

The proof is in the pudding---the paf has made a fool of the nation of pakistan for many a years---their criminal negligence has caused this branch of the military to be extremely weak.

The 'guy in t he driving seat does not know diddly sh-it'---. When the sanctions were coming---I was in the u s----everyone who was listening to the news that they were coming---every nation knew that sanctions were coming on pakistan---except for PAF.

Buddy---if you work for PAF---don't give too much credit to yourself----. You have miserably failed----. There is a long list of your failures---the nation has given you too much respect---they should have hanged you and your likes for the attack on the air base in karachi and then again for the attack on the base close to islamabad---.

You are lucky to have foold the nation of pakistan and still riding the wave.

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## raazh

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for your post----who is talking about in a jiffy----. There was 4 1/2 years times to make a decision. For an air force like paf---their analysts should have have been ready on a fastrak to place an order---.
> 
> PAF's procurement has been pathetic---their screwups have been momentuous-----. Sitting in the driver's seat and knowing more---my foot---this is the same air force that kept on paying for the F 16's after the sanctions---whereas it should have stopped paying and filed a lawsuit in a u s federal court for breach of contract.
> 
> This is the same airforce that went for the best air craft and left the 2ns best aircraft open for purchase by india---ie the mnirage 2 k.
> 
> If paf had opted for the Mirage 2 k right from the gitgo---it would have done a coupe de grace on IAF. THe u s was not selling F16's to the indians at that time---and with paf going for the m2k---indians would have opted out.
> 
> The proof is in the pudding---the paf has made a fool of the nation of pakistan for many a years---their criminal negligence has caused this branch of the military to be extremely weak.
> 
> The 'guy in t he driving seat does not know diddly sh-it'---. When the sanctions were coming---I was in the u s----everyone who was listening to the news that they were coming---every nation knew that sanctions were coming on pakistan---except for PAF.
> 
> Buddy---if you work for PAF---don't give too much credit to yourself----. You have miserably failed----. There is a long list of your failures---the nation has given you too much respect---they should have hanged you and your likes for the attack on the air base in karachi and then again for the attack on the base close to islamabad---.
> 
> You are lucky to have foold the nation of pakistan and still riding the wave.



I remember from your old posts that you work or workd in the auto industry. And from your logic of buying first best and second best Mirage2K im glad your not in PAF. Mirage2K production is closed now and France has moved on to Rafale. Mean while F16's are still being produced and upgraded to new blocks and we have decades of experience with the machine. As far as new procurements are concerned, PAF has learned to be realistic all through the 90's. There is no tax on dreaming but then you don't get any where also. In my personal opinion; I am glad PAF choose the Chinese path while getting the new F16s in the 2000's. Because by now F16 has become sanctioned proof for us and it offers a lot of what the latest 4.5 gen planes are offering in terms of electronics. Our future is with the Chinese. They might not be at par with the west at the moment, but they are catching up very fast.

Let the ppl who have dedicated their lives for PAF, and have qualified to be at a position in which they are at the moment; decide what is good for their role. I don't work in PAF but do work in pvt defense industry and live in the REAL Pakistan. Yes there have been lapses and we are not perfect but still am proud of all our forces. If you wana hang ppl then you should start in US for the 9/11 security lapses and the Pentagon attack from where all this War On Terror started.

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## Chanakyaa

raazh said:


> I remember from your old posts that you work or workd in the auto industry. *And from your logic of buying first best and second best Mirage2K im glad your not in PAF*. Mirage2K production is closed now and France has moved on to Rafale. Mean while F16's are still being produced and upgraded to new blocks and we have decades of experience with the machine. As far as new procurements are concerned, PAF has learned to be realistic all through the 90's. There is no tax on dreaming but then you don't get any where also. In my personal opinion; I am glad PAF choose the Chinese path while getting the new F16s in the 2000's. Because by now F16 has become sanctioned proof for us and it offers a lot of what the latest 4.5 gen planes are offering in terms of electronics. Our future is with the Chinese. They might not be at par with the west at the moment, but they are catching up very fast.
> 
> Let the ppl who have dedicated their lives for PAF, and have qualified to be at a position in which they are at the moment; decide what is good for their role. I don't work in PAF but do work in pvt defense industry and live in the REAL Pakistan. Yes there have been lapses and we are not perfect but still am proud of all our forces. If you wana hang ppl then you should start in US for the 9/11 security lapses and the Pentagon attack from where all this War On Terror started.



I Think You Missed Three Key Things Above :

#1. Respect for a PDF Veteran

#2. The Fact that Perhaps Israeli Airforce - The Most Professional Air force that used the SAME Mirages and Did Marvels ! 

#3. By Your Own Logic, Mirages have demerit that French have Moved to Rafale, so what ?
Even US is using F16s as Targets !

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

raazh said:


> I remember from your old posts that you work or workd in the auto industry. And from your logic of buying first best and second best Mirage2K im glad your not in PAF. Mirage2K production is closed now and France has moved on to Rafale. Mean while F16's are still being produced and upgraded to new blocks and we have decades of experience with the machine. As far as new procurements are concerned, PAF has learned to be realistic all through the 90's. There is no tax on dreaming but then you don't get any where also. In my personal opinion; I am glad PAF choose the Chinese path while getting the new F16s in the 2000's. Because by now F16 has become sanctioned proof for us and it offers a lot of what the latest 4.5 gen planes are offering in terms of electronics. Our future is with the Chinese. They might not be at par with the west at the moment, but they are catching up very fast.
> 
> Let the ppl who have dedicated their lives for PAF, and have qualified to be at a position in which they are at the moment; decide what is good for their role. I don't work in PAF but do work in pvt defense industry and live in the REAL Pakistan. Yes there have been lapses and we are not perfect but still am proud of all our forces. If you wana hang ppl then you should start in US for the 9/11 security lapses and the Pentagon attack from where all this War On Terror started.



analytical explanation , good ...


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## Chanakyaa

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n;4644439 said:


> analytical explanation , good ...



This is Analytical to You ?



> Because by now *F16 has become sanctioned proof for us* and it offers a lot of what the latest 4.5 gen planes are offering in terms of electronics.
> 
> Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakist...n-f-16-discussions-2-a-455.html#ixzz2c3hcSeJo



Since when F16s became *Sanction Proof ?*


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## nangyale

XiNiX said:


> I Think You Missed Three Key Things Above :
> 
> #1. Respect for a PDF Veteran
> 
> #2. The Fact that Perhaps Israeli Airforce - The Most Professional Air force that *used the SAME Mirages and Did Marvels* !
> 
> #3. By Your Own Logic, Mirages have demerit that French have Moved to Rafale, so what ?
> Even US is using F16s as Targets !



Just a quick question. When was it that Israel Defence Force AF was flying Mirage 2000? Did I miss something?
I sure must have missed it, as it is coming from someone with Israeli flag in the locations area.

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## Chak Bamu

@nangyale, forget him. He is just trolling.
@MastanKhan sb. Thanks for giving some detail and rationale to your oft repeated opinions. I however, do not really agree with you here. I am glad PAF went with F-16. When we were under sanctions, we had access to spare parts because of its being widely used by many countries, especially Turkey.

I hope you remember how France buckled under US pressure and cancelled the deal to supply us with nuclear power plant. What could guarantee that France would not have done something similar with M2K and / or parts and service support for it? Moreover, suppose things had gone according to plan as proposed by you and we had a few squadrons of M2K. What might have happened if India had gone for Rafale in '00s and used its leverage upon France to lean on us? After all, France did dump our request for subsystems for JF-17.

You may disagree with me sir, but I see that the shape of PAF today is a function of Pakistan as a country in its unique position at this time. How could it be otherwise?


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## ejaz007

raazh said:


> I remember from your old posts that you work or workd in the auto industry. And from your logic of buying first best and second best Mirage2K im glad your not in PAF. Mirage2K production is closed now and France has moved on to Rafale. Mean while F16's are still being produced and upgraded to new blocks and we have decades of experience with the machine. As far as new procurements are concerned, PAF has learned to be realistic all through the 90's. There is no tax on dreaming but then you don't get any where also. In my personal opinion; I am glad PAF choose the Chinese path while getting the new F16s in the 2000's. Because by now F16 has become sanctioned proof for us and it offers a lot of what the latest 4.5 gen planes are offering in terms of electronics. Our future is with the Chinese. They might not be at par with the west at the moment, but they are catching up very fast.
> 
> Let the ppl who have dedicated their lives for PAF, and have qualified to be at a position in which they are at the moment; decide what is good for their role. I don't work in PAF but do work in pvt defense industry and live in the REAL Pakistan. Yes there have been lapses and we are not perfect but still am proud of all our forces. If you wana hang ppl then you should start in US for the 9/11 security lapses and the Pentagon attack from where all this War On Terror started.



I do not agree with your post.

PAF did make a mess. Entire world except the PAF new of the sanctions. We should have stopped making the payments and gone straight to the court. Cuba did this and got back a lot more money than they paid to the Americans.

PAF showed criminal negligence in this matter and proper inquiry should have been carried out as to why millions kept on going to the US when we knew the planes were not coming.

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## ejaz007

Chak Bamu said:


> @nangyale, forget him. He is just trolling.
> @MastanKhan sb. Thanks for giving some detail and rationale to your oft repeated opinions. I however, do not really agree with you here. I am glad PAF went with F-16. When we were under sanctions, we had access to spare parts because of its being widely used by many countries, especially Turkey.
> 
> I hope you remember how France buckled under US pressure and cancelled the deal to supply us with nuclear power plant. What could guarantee that France would not have done something similar with M2K and / or parts and service support for it? Moreover, suppose things had gone according to plan as proposed by you and we had a few squadrons of M2K. What might have happened if India had gone for Rafale in '00s and used its leverage upon France to lean on us? After all, France did dump our request for subsystems for JF-17.
> 
> You may disagree with me sir, but I see that the shape of PAF today is a function of Pakistan as a country in its unique position at this time. How could it be otherwise?



And I do not agree with you. Choosing F-16 is one issue and discarding Mirage 2000 entirely another issue.

As soon as we knew that F-16 deal was in trouble we should have gone straight to French and paid them 228 million USD instead of paying Americans when the planes were not coming. With down payment made they would have agreed to sell us and perhaps today we would have had both platforms. Remember French were not getting many export orders and selection by PAF would have boosted the Mirage 2000 chances of further export orders.

The French did not agree to sell subsystems for JF-17 because of competition concerns. No one wants a cheap alternative to be competing against their own weapons system with similar capabilities.

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## Tameem

ejaz007 said:


> I do not agree with your post.
> 
> *PAF did make a mess. Entire world except the PAF new of the sanctions. We should have stopped making the payments and gone straight to the court. Cuba did this and got back a lot more money than they paid to the Americans.*
> 
> PAF showed criminal negligence in this matter and proper inquiry should have been carried out as to why millions kept on going to the US when we knew the planes were not coming.



Wrong Analogy here, Cuban communist regime could take capitalist US head-on while keeping USSR/Russia at his back, we couldnt as we already filled our plate with Indian animosity..and need supa powa ally one way or other? The same reasons where in last decades our Kashmir policy went backwards and now emerging again sensing 2014 eventual scaledown/withdrawl.


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## ejaz007

Tameem said:


> Wrong Analogy here, Cuban communist regime could take capitalist US head-on while keeping USSR/Russia at his back, we couldn&#8217;t as we already filled our plate with Indian animosity&#8230;..and need supa powa ally one way or other? The same reasons where in last decades our Kashmir policy went backwards and now emerging again sensing 2014 eventual scaledown/withdrawl.



Russians did send the signals for improving relations. We failed to interpret them correctly and our military establishment failed to make a decision. We some how have developed a bad habit of going back to Americans and getting dumped every now and then.

World changes and with it you have to adopt to new environment. Wrong policies and bad decisions are our virtue.

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## MastanKhan

raazh said:


> I remember from your old posts that you work or workd in the auto industry. And from your logic of buying first best and second best Mirage2K im glad your not in PAF. Mirage2K production is closed now and France has moved on to Rafale. Mean while F16's are still being produced and upgraded to new blocks and we have decades of experience with the machine. As far as new procurements are concerned, PAF has learned to be realistic all through the 90's. There is no tax on dreaming but then you don't get any where also. In my personal opinion; I am glad PAF choose the Chinese path while getting the new F16s in the 2000's. Because by now F16 has become sanctioned proof for us and it offers a lot of what the latest 4.5 gen planes are offering in terms of electronics. Our future is with the Chinese. They might not be at par with the west at the moment, but they are catching up very fast.
> 
> Let the ppl who have dedicated their lives for PAF, and have qualified to be at a position in which they are at the moment; decide what is good for their role. I don't work in PAF but do work in pvt defense industry and live in the REAL Pakistan. Yes there have been lapses and we are not perfect but still am proud of all our forces. If you wana hang ppl then you should start in US for the 9/11 security lapses and the Pentagon attack from where all this War On Terror started.



Hi,

That is the first thing they teach in the u s military---that Pride is a killer and the same thing that they teach in the sales----pride kills a sale.

There is no problem with chosing the F16's after 9/11---the problem is with thew timing----. Pakistan should have had at least a minimum on one sqdrn of F16's after they signed the agreement to support them in war---and another two sqdrn's within a year----.

Pakistan had the u s by the ball joints in the first 5 years of the wot. Buddy---you guys don't even know how to talk to white people. You guys can't even have a general conversation with the whiteys----you have no clue in how to negotiate---.

As for buying M2k----india would not have had the same strike capability through the late 80's---90's----2000 and till now---. Indian M2k is the back bone of iaf.

Pakistan would not have felt impotent in the 90's----as for end of line for mirage----pakistan would have gone for the rafale---but then mirage 2005---07 and 09 upgraqdes would have been sufficient. French radars and air to air missiles.

This incompetent air force did not even have a singe aircraft to face the iaf at kargil. This air force let its most valuable assets be destroyed by the terrorists----while all of the world knew about the oncoming terrorist attacks on the air force bases---the only ones who did not know about it were the pak air force.

As for aircraft not in production now----have you heard about this aircraft known as Saab 2000.

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## MastanKhan

Chak Bamu said:


> @nangyale, forget him. He is just trolling.
> @MastanKhan sb. Thanks for giving some detail and rationale to your oft repeated opinions. I however, do not really agree with you here. I am glad PAF went with F-16. When we were under sanctions, we had access to spare parts because of its being widely used by many countries, especially Turkey.
> 
> I hope you remember how France buckled under US pressure and cancelled the deal to supply us with nuclear power plant. What could guarantee that France would not have done something similar with M2K and / or parts and service support for it? Moreover, suppose things had gone according to plan as proposed by you and we had a few squadrons of M2K. What might have happened if India had gone for Rafale in '00s and used its leverage upon France to lean on us? After all, France did dump our request for subsystems for JF-17.
> 
> You may disagree with me sir, but I see that the shape of PAF today is a function of Pakistan as a country in its unique position at this time. How could it be otherwise?



Hi,

I don't have a problem with paf going with the F 16---but for diversity sake---they should have also bought the first batch of M2K's as well to take india away from that market---thus inflicting a coupe de grace---. Leaving the M2k open to india---was like shooting your mother in the heart----.

That is why I keep saying----paf does not have any brains to think with.They have no strategy and game plan---they can fly----no doubt about that----.

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## piddu

nice pakistan air force is the best


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## Luftwaffe

MastanKhan said:


> As for aircraft not in production now----have you heard about this aircraft known as Saab 2000.



"They" have answer to that what would be their reply just 4 SAAB air frames no big deal. They've Answers to everything.

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## raazh

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is the first thing they teach in the u s military---that Pride is a killer and the same thing that they teach in the sales----pride kills a sale.
> 
> There is no problem with chosing the F16's after 9/11---the problem is with thew timing----. Pakistan should have had at least a minimum on one sqdrn of F16's after they signed the agreement to support them in war---and another two sqdrn's within a year----.
> 
> Pakistan had the u s by the ball joints in the first 5 years of the wot. Buddy---you guys don't even know how to talk to white people. You guys can't even have a general conversation with the whiteys----you have no clue in how to negotiate---.
> 
> As for buying M2k----india would not have had the same strike capability through the late 80's---90's----2000 and till now---. Indian M2k is the back bone of iaf.
> 
> Pakistan would not have felt impotent in the 90's----as for end of line for mirage----pakistan would have gone for the rafale---but then mirage 2005---07 and 09 upgraqdes would have been sufficient. French radars and air to air missiles.
> 
> This incompetent air force did not even have a singe aircraft to face the iaf at kargil. This air force let its most valuable assets be destroyed by the terrorists----while all of the world knew about the oncoming terrorist attacks on the air force bases---the only ones who did not know about it were the pak air force.
> 
> As for aircraft not in production now----have you heard about this aircraft known as Saab 2000.



I wonder why IAF didnt wipe us out in Kargil, Mumbai and Parliment attack ??? how many more excuses they would need ?? If they have super doper unbeatable aircraft, then why did they refrain to atleast bomb few targets into our territory?? Pride is a killer and fear is the thought of admitted inferiority.
 @ejaz yes PAF did learn a lesson after the F16 sanctions. However we have decades of experience on the F16's and it makes more sense to add more New/Refurbished F16's instead of buying an all new sanctioned proned plane who's training, infrastructure development will alone take another decade to start going.

All in all bahi, Pakistan as a country must not prioritize on investing $10-15Billion on such Machines. We must first work on our education, economy and other impt matters. Our enemy is right next door, we dont need aircraft carriers, F22's etc etc .. JF17 and other Chinese planes will be a good deterrence for IAF. Yes, its not the best at the moment, but we have other MORE important areas to invest in.

Whether we know how to talk to a white guy or not .. I think this discussion will not remain civil so lets not go there. What I do know is that you have dedicated your Life for the betterment of USA, and have given them all your tax dollars to wage wars around the world including Pakistan. They have killed countless innocent people with your Tax Dollars .. and you tell us that we dont know how to talk to white ppl.

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## Bossman

I must say this forum attracts some real characters. The veteran Mr. Mastan, the second hand car sales man from California, the expert on every thing military specially the air force and who looks down on every one else. He spent years on the this forum propagating against the JF17 and I think he was also a great fan of the Grippin and now it is the M2K. The thing he doesn't know is that the PAF M2K deal was tainted from the start, the price was very inflated and the only person who would have benefited from the deal was Zardari. He also doesn't know that the only reason IAF purchased M2Ks was to counter PAF's F16 and the ongoing upgrade of the M2K is more expensive than the original price of the planes but also more than equivalent brand new contemporary planes like the F16. The only one laughing all the way to the Bank are the French. As far as Kargil is concerned Indians lost 3 jets and 1 helicopter and PAF none. IAF, despite the superiority, never dared to cross the border, not during Kargil or after the parliament attack or after the Mumbai attack - I wonder why. And then we have characters like Nishan 101 who thinks that buying military equipment is like buying sabzi or fruit i.e. must be done in the dozens. He is either 9 years old or has serious learning disabilities. Guys like them do provide some comedic relief on the forum but they can also be very embarrassing.

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## ejaz007

raazh said:


> I wonder why IAF didnt wipe us out in Kargil, Mumbai and Parliment attack ??? how many more excuses they would need ?? If they have super doper unbeatable aircraft, then why did they refrain to atleast bomb few targets into our territory?? Pride is a killer and fear is the thought of admitted inferiority.
> 
> @ejaz yes PAF did learn a lesson after the F16 sanctions. However we have decades of experience on the F16's and it makes more sense to add more New/Refurbished F16's instead of buying an all new sanctioned proned plane who's training, infrastructure development will alone take another decade to start going.
> 
> All in all bahi, Pakistan as a country must not prioritize on investing $10-15Billion on such Machines. We must first work on our education, economy and other impt matters. Our enemy is right next door, we dont need aircraft carriers, F22's etc etc .. JF17 and other Chinese planes will be a good deterrence for IAF. Yes, its not the best at the moment, but we have other MORE important areas to invest in.
> 
> Whether we know how to talk to a white guy or not .. I think this discussion will not remain civil so lets not go there. What I do know is that you have dedicated your Life for the betterment of USA, and have given them all your tax dollars to wage wars around the world including Pakistan. They have killed countless innocent people with your Tax Dollars .. and you tell us that we dont know how to talk to white ppl.



What lesson did we learn. Buy more of the same planes and wait for next round of sanctions. If we go by the experience theory than we have more experience on the mirages than on the F-16s. We would have easily adopted to the new platform and already have maintenance facility for the French fighters which should have been upgraded.

Education indeed is important but unfortunately its not the education but the weapons that save you in war.

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## ajkhan7

In todays world if you want anything to be implemented u need musle power .... and to have muscle power u need strong economy ... They both complement each other.....

There are no weaponry in the world which can save u if u have a starving and unhappy nation backing the armed forces as depicted by breaking up of USSR and more recently Iraq..... Lets face it ...... we need to work on all sides at one time..... 

We as a nation have been used, manipulated and looted by Politicians and most of all by dictators..... each governence arm should restrict itself to its functions and everythign will work out fine.... Insha Allah


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## MastanKhan

Bossman said:


> I must say this forum attracts some real characters. The veteran Mr. Mastan, the second hand car sales man from California, the expert on every thing military specially the air force and who looks down on every one else. He spent years on the this forum propagating against the JF17 and I think he was also a great fan of the Grippin and now it is the M2K. The thing he doesn't know is that the PAF M2K deal was tainted from the start, the price was very inflated and the only person who would have benefited from the deal was Zardari. He also doesn't know that the only reason IAF purchased M2Ks was to counter PAF's F16 and the ongoing upgrade of the M2K is more expensive than the original price of the planes but also more than equivalent brand new contemporary planes like the F16. The only one laughing all the way to the Bank are the French. As far as Kargil is concerned Indians lost 3 jets and 1 helicopter and PAF none. IAF, despite the superiority, never dared to cross the border, not during Kargil or after the parliament attack or after the Mumbai attack - I wonder why. And then we have characters like Nishan 101 who thinks that buying military equipment is like buying sabzi or fruit i.e. must be done in the dozens. He is either 9 years old or has serious learning disabilities. Guys like them do provide some comedic relief on the forum but they can also be very embarrassing.



Bossman,

Are you back hunting for the BEAR one more time.

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## Side-Winder

MastanKhan said:


> Bossman,
> 
> Are you back hunting for the BEAR one more time.



LMAO,i still remember that story

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## Bossman

MastanKhan said:


> Bossman,
> 
> Are you back hunting for the BEAR one more time.



Enlighten me as I have no recollection. Was this one of the 100 times when I have been able to totally rip apart your shallow arguments and so called expertise on military matters and you have never done that to me even once.

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## Arsalan

Trying to get on track..
MLU Status anyone?
@fatman17


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## raazh

Bossman said:


> Enlighten me as I have no recollection. Was this one of the 100 times when I have been able to totally rip apart your shallow arguments and so called expertise on military matters and you have never done that to me even once.



All MK has to add is that HE knows everything and the Rest of the KIDS (ppl) in Pakistan are dumb and they have no idea what the World is doing. Only he knows how to use Google for answers and how to deal with white ppl  I remember your discussions with MK in older posts and I wanted to back your posts but unfortunately dont find enough time to login this forum and post regularly.


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## MastanKhan

raazh said:


> All MK has to add is that HE knows everything and the Rest of the KIDS (ppl) in Pakistan are dumb and they have no idea what the World is doing. Only he knows how to use Google for answers and how to deal with white ppl  I remember your discussions with MK in older posts and I wanted to back your posts but unfortunately dont find enough time to login this forum and post regularly.



Hi,

Just because most of you say otherwise---does that mean you are right----. Absolutely not---because you are the off shoot of that same old mindset---which has resulted in failure more often than not.

I can understand where you are coming from----incompetent people have to protect their turf as well----otherwise they won't have any jobs.

It is very difficult for pakistanis to accept that the sanctions were due to their own fault---that is why they blame it on the others---instead of doing things to correct the issues that may lead to sanctions---paks have not done anything to fight this issue on war footings----.

It is very difficult for pakistanis to understand that the PAF is a failed organization---it failures are on the brink of being in the same league as treason---why is it difficult for paks to accept it---because they have put this organization on such a high pedastel for so long----given them status next to the proverbial 'gods' that if now you accept that paf is a failure---then all your ideology comes crumbling down.

Who wants to accept their mistakes---successful nations or those want to change and be successful---who don't want to accept their mistakes----those who want to live in status quo---.

12 years have gone by after 9 /11 almost---just few days ----and not a single aircraft that can make the same statement as the SU30.

You want to come BEAR hunting---with pleasure any time---any day.

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## nomi007

which aircraft situated next to f-16 in orange color


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## Last Hope

nomi007 said:


> which aircraft situated next to f-16 in orange color



It is Turkish F-16.


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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> which aircraft situated next to f-16 in orange color


duch F-16

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## Tameem

@MastanKhan,

I think, when in 2013 you still have the time and patience to highlights the failures of PAF as an orgainization and not Pakistan & its people as a nation, then its only you here who actually represents the typical PAF fanboys list no one else......period.

In last 13 years or so from an ordinary man on the streets to any elites in banglows no one care much about PAF anymore.......Its only & only Pakistan then its idealogy, then its economy.....even we puts our jugular vein soverignity on back burners don't you understands and in this dire atmosphere you still weeping around PAF's successes and failure *individually*, doesn't Its 'P' stands for Pakistan and people serving in it are first and foremost resident Pakistanis?

despite being an elites in our armed forces branches she still can't force decision making to her desires endeavours from a top brass (military or civillian) who still can't formulates a basic concrete policy towards TTP and we as a nation still trying to comprehends the basics of the basics i.e either this War is Our's or Not, there are ordinary peoples in our country muslims, ideoligical Pakistanis who still justifies attacks on Mehran base and GHQs.....for god's sack pls comeouts from your hybernation.....we have more dire issues on hands then your favorite pastime especially when it went completely out of context & common sense.

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## MastanKhan

Tameem said:


> @MastanKhan,
> 
> I think, when in 2013 you still have the time and patience to highlights the failures of PAF as an orgainization and not Pakistan & its people as a nation, then its only you here who actually represents the typical PAF fanboys list no one else......period.
> 
> In last 13 years or so from an ordinary man on the streets to any elites in banglows no one care much about PAF anymore.......Its only & only Pakistan then its idealogy, then its economy.....even we puts our jugular vein soverignity on back burners don't you understands and in this dire atmosphere you still weeping around PAF's successes and failure *individually*, doesn't Its 'P' stands for Pakistan and people serving in it are first and foremost resident Pakistanis?
> 
> despite being an elites in our armed forces branches she still can't force decision making to her desires endeavours from a top brass (military or civillian) who still can't formulates a basic concrete policy towards TTP and we as a nation still trying to comprehends the basics of the basics i.e either this War is Our's or Not, there are ordinary peoples in our country muslims, ideoligical Pakistanis who still justifies attacks on Mehran base and GHQs.....for god's sack pls comeouts from your hybernation.....we have more dire issues on hands then your favorite pastime especially when it went completely out of context & common sense.



Hi,

God Almighty----you people are THICK---what have pakistanis done in retaliation---what have they done to change things around them---. Pakistanis are famous for 'all talk and no substance'---. 

There is a reason why I am 'weeping' about paf's impotence---and if you don't know or understand the what a strong air force brings to the nation---it is like me playing the been.

Pakistani residents are patheTic---if it was not for us expats---they would be eating dirt by now---. Everyday---you paks beg us expats to send money---foreign exchange. 

You may think that you are being productive---and you maybe be basing your analysis on your standards and what you know---and we are telling you that your standards are way below the 'standard'---and your efforts are below being 'pathetic'---and we are telling you that being pathetic and living pathetic is disgusting for a human being.

A nation without a strong air force would have lost its right to survive under any adverse conditions---. A strong air force---with a competitive flying wing has always been the need of the hour for pakistan---. 

If you paks care less for the air force---then why don't you say ' it is over with'----make peace with india and get done with it.

You paks are worse off today as compared to 13 years ago----in every aspect of life. You have lost your freedom---you have lost your integrity---you are at the mercy of suicide bombers---you are at the mercy of lunatics ---you have lost your sanity.

I don't have any problem when a poster gets mad at me---we agree to disagree---but when the sense of reasoning and common sense flies out into the ether----when PRIDE overtakes common sense---you have already lost your cause.

One poster says ---there was a supposedly large payoff to Zardari---what difference did it make---if 50 million was to be paid to Zardari---at least you had he tools and resource to stand tall against the enemy and not to hide in your bunkers.

YOU STUPID FOOLS---ask your grand parents who immigrated from india----those whose guns were confiscated by the british govt before the migration---ask them---GRANDPA GRANDMA----HOW MUCH WOULD YOU HAVE PAID FOR THAT .303 RIFLE AND A BIT OF AMMUNITION WHEN THAT SIKH JATHA WAS COMING FOR YOUR PRETTY GIRLS.

Ask them what price they would pay for weapons to save the rapes of hundreds of thousand of muslim girls and women---and you too MURADK----ask your father if he came across from the border---what price would he paid for that .303---2 times---3 times---5 times or 10 times the price. Muradk---you failed the nation---and look at these young mongrels---protecting and defending your lies and incompetence. 

Being honest is good----but being honest and having no concept of the consequences that would result from the decision being made is an atrocity. 

Major weapons system purchases cannot be delayed---once the decision has been made---they must move forward.

WHAT FEARS INDIA THE MOST---the shame and embarrassment of its air force being beaten by pakistani air force---and the biggest fear it has is its SU30's being taken out by the paks.

SU30 is next to a god in hindustan---you paks had 13 years to do it---and yet you don't have a single platform to take this menace on---one on one----. You got nothing that can fly with the arrogance of a SU30 in the sub continent skies---and you had all the time and the money to do it when it was needed to be done---.

You could not even shoot down that su30 that blatantly flew over punjab---all you had was a gun camera photo of a missile lock----instead of an actual shootdown of a plane that is 100 miles into your territory---.

What a proud moment for children of Sultan Tippu, Khalid Bin Waleed, Tariq Bin Ziyyad, Mohammad Bin Qasim----din't you make them heroes proud now----cherish the thought----but if you have an iota of character left in you and if there is a miniscule of doubt lingering in your minds that you may be wrong, then hold onto that thought and and try to change---because maintaining a status quo---that is not the 'islamic' way. 

A muslim does not stay ordinary---.

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## Chak Bamu

Considering the tenor of the discussion here, it might be of interest to note that on today's "Apas Ki Baat", Najam Sethi discussed the possible repercussions of downing a drone. He referred to 'highest sources' in his assertion that US has ability to disable our F-16s in case of any confrontation.

Analysts can make of it whatever they will. But this point just underscores our quest for independence from US as sole weapons supplier.


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## Chak Bamu

@MastanKhan, Sir could you please take the volume and rhetoric down a notch. You seem to think that everyone on this forum apart from yourself is somehow not your equal. You may have some justification in case you do feel so, but please bear in mind that many people on PDF are not mere students. They have education & experience, perhaps not along the lines you have. But they are no fools. 

When you talk about Sikh Jathas and 0.303 guns and ammo, you are taking something out of context for your own purpose. Perhaps, someone who have heard such stories from his parents might feel offended at using such an example for lamenting the lack of spending billions of dollars that we never had. Perhaps some people might find it offensive that while we have abyssmal indicators in education, healthcare, and infrastructure, someone laments at us not spending billions of dollars for expensive, sanctionable gear. Perhaps someone does not think that a weapon system or two could avert a war that (if it were not for Kargil) never happened since 1971; and shall not happen for the foreseeable future (since we have THE bomb).

You seem to be stuck on a narrative that you never fail to repeat. It is getting a little worn out and so is the patience of a few, who seemingly do not respect your seniority. While I would not condone anybody disrespecting you, I would however ask you to please reconsider your practice of castigating PAF each time you post because of reasons that happened in 80s and 90s. Sir time moves on, you have made your point amply well. Now perhaps we should move on too from the fascination about what PAF could have done 35 years ago.

PAF could be the worst organization ever in our history, that should not mean that we can not discuss the technical, tactical, & strategic matters in current times.

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## Bossman

That's is MK's typical approach. When he cannot defend the topic at hand he brings in irrelevant issues into the discussion. I don't mind his point of view as everyone has a right to that however the way he puts puts downs other and is so patronizing forces me to kick his butt periodically. He quiets down far a while but comes back doing the same again.

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## nomi007

are pakistani f-16 block-52 pilots using paper manuals, maps, and other documents used in its aircraft (mainly in the cockpit) or mini tablet computers


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## Abu Zolfiqar

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I don't have a problem with paf going with the F 16---but for diversity sake---they should have also bought the first batch of M2K's as well to take india away from that market---thus inflicting a coupe de grace---. Leaving the M2k open to india---was like shooting your mother in the heart----.
> 
> That is why I keep saying----paf does not have any brains to think with.They have no strategy and game plan---they can fly----no doubt about that----.



Maybe during Lost Decade....at this point, M2K will be obsolete in not such a long time


#1 priority will be JF-17 Thunder Program, it ought to be

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## cw2005

Bossman said:


> That's is MK's typical approach. When he cannot defend the topic at hand he brings in irrelevant issues into the discussion. I don't mind his point of view as everyone has a right to that however the way he puts puts downs other and is so patronizing forces me to kick his butt periodically. He quiets down far a while but comes back doing the same again.



If you paid a little attention to MK&#8217;s background, you would have known that he is being driven from his years of experience in sales. When he is at work for a sale, he shall not stop because of a few argument otherwise he shall not survive as salesman for long. 

I was buying a Toyota car in the states in year 1995 and when the salesman wants me to buy an American car, I told him Japanese car is trouble free and I need it. Than he was telling me how strong the American car compared with Japanese ones. When I said I don't want a strong car because I just need one to go to work and come home and I want an economy car to cut down my fuel expenses. The man started telling me how a big V6 should give me. This kind of attitude buries deep into our friend&#8217;s mind and influences his behavior. And he considers selling his idea the same as selling car. 

I always find it amazing to read MK's thread and pick the lighter side of it. After all, are we taking very serious to what the salesman telling us?

Just leave him alone.


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## Chak Bamu

This is OFF TOPIC. So advance apologies.

It is unfortunate to see people picking on personal facets of @MastanKhan. For those disrespecting folks, I would like to ask if they would put up with such remarks themselves?

MK sb has a particular POV. One may not agree with him or his persistence in presenting it. But one can not assume the right to get personal. It is no 'right' at all but really height of badtameezi and that too with someone who is a senior member in # of posts as well as age, has been associated with PAF, and apparently cares deeply.

Mods, could you please delete the irrelevant posts, including mine so that an effective point is made?

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## araz

Abu Zolfiqar said:


> Maybe during Lost Decade....at this point, M2K will be obsolete in not such a long time
> 
> 
> #1 priority will be JF-17 Thunder Program, it ought to be



What mastan has repeatedly quotesd and you highlighted is the opprtunity to buy M2ks in the 90s to keep the Indians out of the French market. I see the logic of it but we have heard from the very man who was involved in the deal that when the opportunity arose the french backed out and changed the price altogether. I dont know whetehr we would have ever gone over to buying the rafale even though we have evaluated it repeatedly and liked it. So it is a mute point. The other point to note is whetehr buying Rafales in 2002 would have prevented the Indiands from going on to buy the Typhoons which would have been an equally awesome plane and would have been the cause of nightmares for PAF. So I dont know whether the strategy would have worked .
The french commodities are now getting very expensive and there after sales service has not been the best. We have had to pay through our noses for the M3/5 spares and eventually went about scrounging for second hand platform. had it not been for our neighbours stupidity in the strait of Malaca we would never have gotten the australian M3/5s and spares for bargain basement price and would have had a jolly good time maintaining our fleet.Seconmdly the french did delay delivery of our Rose mirages and the Agosta subs in 2002 so there are no guarantees that they would not have done the same for the Rafale. I hope Nishan 101 is not going to come and recommend a joint venture with the french with assembly and manufacture of Rafales for PAF as that would give me a heart attack. 
Araz

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## MastanKhan

cw2005 said:


> After all, are we taking very serious to what the salesman telling us?
> 
> Just leave him alone.



Hi,

Just read your comments a couple of times and think what you wrote---. So---what profession is taken seriously?


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Looking at these so many posts----its is amazing and it is funny---you get to to understand---the eyes read what the mind is thinking---or in other words---the mind has already made it up what it wants to read---.

The M2k purchase was the best during the 80's and the 90's---the M2k-7 procurement was best during the early 2000 for a stop gap---not now---.

As for JF17---it is another 5 to 10 years away from being a potent platform---and only and only if it has a 1st grade BVR missile and aesa radar.

What is sad is that you people want the best and the latest for yourself---but when it comes to your motherland---she is hardly worthy of left overs---. 

Losing the french for the chinese equipment was a terrible decision. You people keep hearing the paf say----JF 17 is our and without sanctions----okay---that is well and fine---but when you talk about JF 17---you have to ask---jf 17 is good in contest against which enemy aircraft---You want to procure 150---250 JF17's---okay---well and good---but then you must ask----which opponwent is it going to take a stand against---. That is a the general and basic question for any defence related discussion / argument---.

It always boils down to---what is your equipment going to do in the time of your need---under what circumstances it can be used to the best of its abilities and against what.

Chak Bamu---thank you for your post---. As I m getting older---I don't get upset for the personal digs---it does not bother me and does not hurt my ego---. What bothers me is the lack of electricity in the minds of young pakistanis---. They just want to worship the demigods that their elders had created for them---. They want to lie to hide their shortcomings----

I appreciate you making this statement.

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## A G 1046

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Looking at these so many posts----its is amazing and it is funny---you get to to understand---the eyes read what the mind is thinking---or in other words---the mind has already made it up what it wants to read---.
> 
> The M2k purchase was the best during the 80's and the 90's---the M2k-7 procurement was best during the early 2000 for a stop gap---not now---.
> 
> As for JF17---it is another 5 to 10 years away from being a potent platform---and only and only if it has a 1st grade BVR missile and aesa radar.
> 
> What is sad is that you people want the best and the latest for yourself---but when it comes to your motherland---she is hardly worthy of left overs---.
> 
> Losing the french for the chinese equipment was a terrible decision. You people keep hearing the paf say----JF 17 is our and without sanctions----okay---that is well and fine---but when you talk about JF 17---you have to ask---jf 17 is good in contest against which enemy aircraft---You want to procure 150---250 JF17's---okay---well and good---but then you must ask----which opponwent is it going to take a stand against---. That is a the general and basic question for any defence related discussion / argument---.
> 
> It always boils down to---what is your equipment going to do in the time of your need---under what circumstances it can be used to the best of its abilities and against what.
> 
> Chak Bamu---thank you for your post---. As I m getting older---I don't get upset for the personal digs---it does not bother me and does not hurt my ego---. What bothers me is the lack of electricity in the minds of young pakistanis---. They just want to worship the demigods that their elders had created for them---. They want to lie to hide their shortcomings----
> 
> I appreciate you making this statement.



Jane do Khan Saheb they wont understand it now like they dint get it earlier ....jane do


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## Panther 57

Operations and procurement planners spend a lot of time deliberation. They take into consideration many aspects which people outside the game seldom comprehend or understand. This should answer any doubts on why JF-17 procuremet, non-procurement of M2K and use of F-16 against drones


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## fatman17

*Today in history
20 Aug 1982 
PAF accepts first F-16 from Peace Gate I order*

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## Chak Bamu

Ummm.... I think that even though some think PAF made a mistake going for JF-17, in our current situation we can hardly hope for anything better. Our circumstances have made the rationale against this supposed mistake disappear. We are going through a necessary rite of passage as a nation as we define ourselves in this day & age. This confusion shall lift in a few years. 

If anyone thinks that JF-17 is built to take on the might of IAF, then they are sadly mistaken. It is a light workhorse designed to be cheap to operate and maintain and have the ability to achieve a high sortie rate. I do not see it going deep into hostile airspace. The KEY question is whether it can survive defending our own airspace? The answer to that question is anybody's guess. But since it went through two design iterations before PT-04, I hope that its design philosophy has incorporated results of future threat analysis. The avionics are upgradeable, so is the engine. With an improvement in our economy, I am sure that we can go for AESA radar and other avionics upgrades. I am not too sure about the engine, but supposedly RD-93 can be set for higher performance with a penalty to engine life. In a war that might be done. Who knows. 

Personally I do not think that a war is likely. We just need our foes to understand that it would cost them dearly to cross into our airspace.

Beside the above, I would support getting a heavy and hard-hitting long range two-engine behemoth for defending our seas. A squadron of J-11 would be excellent. But can we make that happen? I doubt it.

EDIT: I am cross posting my comment to JF-17 thread. Mods pls delete this post if it is in violation of forum rules.


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## MastanKhan

Panther 57 said:


> Operations and procurement planners spend a lot of time deliberation. They take into consideration many aspects which people outside the game seldom comprehend or understand. This should answer any doubts on why JF-17 procuremet, non-procurement of M2K and use of F-16 against drones



Hi,

The planners of paf are pi--ss poor and pathtic. Have you ever seen me condemn the army planners in a similar manner regarding procurements---or the navy planners---I think never ever---. 

I have commented on the army for not taking the right steps in taking out al qaeda operatives at tora bora---but not their equipment. Through thick or thin---pak army hs always maintained its edge----regardless of the circumstance---.

About the navy---poor as though it maybe---with whatever resources it could muster---through begging borrowing or whatever means---pak navy has maintained itself to be the best under the given circumstance and resources---..

But it is the air force that we cherish the most---we brag the most about---we put it head and shoulders above anything else---in the skies is the God Almighty---and below our Lord is the pakistan air force---. That is how a pakistani looks at its air force.

Chak Bamu---if the JF 17 cannot take on the su 30---then what is the purpose of this air craft. The GW1 and GW2 have shown us that an adversary with larger inferior equipment will be defeated by the opponent who has larger superior equipment. 

The superiority of equipment in larger numbers will always over come the equal inferiority in larger numbers all the time.

It is not enough to say---" our foe needs to understand that the war will be costly "----it is like talking from a position of weakness from the gitgo. 

The problem and issue that paks cannot understand and comprehend is the potency of a superior eletronically enhanced weapons system in large numbers over an inferior lesser capable weapons system in lesser numbers---.

They cannot understand how the larger system will overpower the lesser system without giving it a chance to strike back with any substance.

The RD93 engine has enough power---more power is not going to make it any more potent or deadly---. Todays bvr's and wvr's don't care if you have 10% more power or 20% more power in your engine----when they come for you---they will get you---they are an equal oppurtunity destroyer.

Being smaller---your only savings grace would be a strong radar and a missile which has a higher kill ratio at longer distances. Your enemy would not want to merge if it can avoid it---.

So---then the bottomline ---paf needs to get more of Blk52's as there is hardly anything out there that is available at a reasonable price---that gives the same bang for the buck.

Even though war maybe inevitable but the reason for war has not diminished---but rather increased in intensity---. The enemy knows that and is becoming incessantly more belligerant and provocative. Every oppurtunity that pakistan has had to get ahead---has been neutralized by the adversary.

Pakistan's air space is violated by the adversay at its discretion---because it knows that the paf does not have much to show off.

Pakistanis must then ask this question---if the air force cannot win them a war or keep the enemy away from the borders---then why spend so much on i!

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## Chak Bamu

@MastanKhan, Sir you arguments are well-noted.

1. I agree JF-17 is not a do-all plane which can scare MKIs. But we can hardly do any better at this point, and that too is a burden on our very limited resources. As I said, the question is if it can survive in own airspace against 4th gen combat air craft.

Your point about better Radar and potent missile is well-noted. I do not know nearly enough to comment on this. But then SD-10A (or B?) is an unknown. So, is the actual working of KLJ-7. Would IAF want to find out? I doubt it sir. The stakes are too high. Perhaps the aggressive attitude of IAF is to gauge our responses?

2. I think you have a strong point about us opting for more Blk-52s. But the evolving strategic environment would indicate that we ought to step away from US influence for the medium term at least, until US policies change a bit. But we do need a Higher performing aircraft to provide cover for other (JF-17, F-7PG) less capable aircraft. Let us wait and see what PAF decides.

3. Small incidents do not bother me as such. Things like these go on most of the time. Indian government needs to show something to their people in these uncertain times. Tension at the border has its value in diverting attention from domestic woes. I do not see a serious war in the next decade or so. Both the countries stand to loose too much.

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## MastanKhan

Chak Bamu,

Thank you for your post. Pak military is a firm believer in quality over quantity---they would rather have the american equipment than anything else---. The problems here lies with the civilians---pakistani civilians need to come to terms with the reality that the u s weapons system are the first choice for pak military---if they can afford them---. It now depends upon the civilians to create situations so that the sanctions don't come into force at any time.

Even the talk of sanctions by the u s must be met head on in the u s media talk shows. Since the OBL issue in Abbottabad---no pakistani has come on the u s media and defended pakistan's position tooth and nail.

Until and unless the pakistanis don't learn to fight for pakistan's image in front of the u s and world media---like the jews do for israel and for their rights everywhere----pakistan will always be pressed hard.

Now as for small incidences----once you learn to understand the significance and importance of small incidences---you will learn to appreciate how important a role they play in our daily lives at the international level.

Small incidences are like being suffocated a little bit at a time---without knowing that every incidence gets you closer to death---but as it is not right in your face---we think it is not important.

It is just like 'auto erotic asphyxiation'---it gives you the high---but takes away a bit of you wioth out you comprehending it---till the day comes when you don't get out of it---but it is too late.

With my experience----small issues with india are of a bigger concern than the larger issues. That is why they have a saying---NIP IT IN THE BUD----an then there is that famous quote from Napoleon---'pin pricks start wars'.

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## Chak Bamu

MastanKhan said:


> Chak Bamu,
> 
> Thank you for your post. Pak military is a firm believer in quality over quantity---they would rather have the american equipment than anything else---. The problems here lies with the civilians---pakistani civilians need to come to terms with the reality that the u s weapons system are the first choice for pak military---if they can afford them---. It now depends upon the civilians to create situations so that the sanctions don't come into force at any time.
> 
> Even the talk of sanctions by the u s must be met head on in the u s media talk shows. Since the OBL issue in Abbottabad---no pakistani has come on the u s media and defended pakistan's position tooth and nail.
> 
> Until and unless the pakistanis don't learn to fight for pakistan's image in front of the u s and world media---like the jews do for israel and for their rights everywhere----pakistan will always be pressed hard.
> 
> Now as for small incidences----once you learn to understand the significance and importance of small incidences---you will learn to appreciate how important a role they play in our daily lives at the international level.
> 
> Small incidences are like being suffocated a little bit at a time---without knowing that every incidence gets you closer to death---but as it is not right in your face---we think it is not important.
> 
> It is just like 'auto erotic asphyxiation'---it gives you the high---but takes away a bit of you wioth out you comprehending it---till the day comes when you don't get out of it---but it is too late.
> 
> With my experience----small issues with india are of a bigger concern than the larger issues. That is why they have a saying---NIP IT IN THE BUD----an then there is that famous quote from Napoleon---'pin pricks start wars'.



1. Perhaps it is easier for certain types of equipment to be sourced during sanctions. I am quite sure airborne assets are numerically rarer and their parts likely contain higher tech parts & systems. I would not equate Army and AF in this matter.

2. Relations between nations are dependent upon relative strengths and weaknesses and strategic weight distribution. Right now I see US policy in a period of flux and it is a bit beyond me to understand hows and whys of decision makers. Long-term Pakistan and US relations are not entirely contingent upon AFPAK policy, or AQ related issues only. Pakistan's resistance to US policies in the region is easy to understand. The hegemonic policies would not stop at keeping us from passive resistance, they would want active role from Pakistan in relation to Iran and even China. Once we give up passive resistance, we would be required to do a lot more. The mantra of "Do More" would never cease unless US ropes us into its corner. 

Of my adult years, I have lived in US for a decade, and I have lived in Pakistan for more than one, and half a decade was spent in ME. Throughout I have kept an eye on strategy-related material; and yet I am not an expert at how US conducts its foreign policy. However, I do have a feel for it. My view is that Pakistan necessarily HAS to resist US in a passive manner. The only way they can compel us is by pressurizing us from various fronts, especially from the East. We are doing as well as we possibly can given the circumstances. Look at AlKhalid, JF-17, as the most obvious examples of our effort to move away from US influence. We are even working with Serbia for our defence needs. This pro-active approach needs to be continued.

Pakistanis themselves were very confused and bewildered about OBL raid. It was a bit too much to expect anyone to address US media.

I am ambivalent about issue of more F-16s for PAF. It is a difficult call for me to make. I really do not know enough to be able to have an informed opinion. I can merely note bang-for-buck vs. Strategic dynamics dialectic (if indeed it is that simple) and leave the issue for people far more well-informed to make their call. I hardly have any option other than to trust the decision makers' judgement.

3. About small incidents and pin pricks, I note your straight forward approach. But I do not think that Napoleon meant by his remarks what you seem to be conveying. He was a rather taciturn person, who planned at an entirely different level. I take his remark to mean how is one to start a war of expansion. I do not recall him as ever being the one to be pricked. He did all the pricking in his time. Any commander would know the value of gathering data. Pin pricks reveal a lot. Knowing that one is being pricked, one can do with it as one pleases. It is like a game. Napoleon sometimes spent months maneuvering his army looking for a decisive advantage against the opposing army, gathering intelligence all the time via spies and limited skirmishes.

Our relative weakness at this time necessitates biding our time while making peace overtures. If India reciprocates, excellent; otherwise we can show the world that we do not want war and build pressure on India that way. We are not exactly friendless either, nor are we entirely powerless. It is not a straight forward game. There are a lot of variables. I can imagine a level of paranoia that must pervade in Indian GHQ. War does not serve any purpose for them at this time. Indians are rather predictable. It is the unpredictable foe that makes one think seriously.

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## VelocuR

@Windjammer, do you have big picture of this or any link?

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## Imran Khan

RaptorRX707 said:


> @Windjammer, do you have big picture of this or any link?



from redflag video sir jee

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## VelocuR

Imran Khan said:


> from redflag video sir jee



Thank bro- Great picture

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## That Guy

Imran Khan said:


> from redflag video sir jee



Is this old, or did Pakistan participate in another red flag exercise recently?


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## he-man

Ok ppl can anyone tell me the best radar in pakistani f-16's??apg-66 or 68?

If apg-68 then which version and the specifications of that radar like range etc

Does f-16 have a dedicated irst??If yes then range will be appreciated


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## Kompromat

he-man said:


> Ok ppl can anyone tell me the best radar in pakistani f-16's??apg-66 or 68?
> 
> If apg-68 then which version and the specifications of that radar like range etc
> 
> Does f-16 have a dedicated irst??If yes then range will be appreciated




AN/APG-68V9.


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## he-man

Aeronaut said:


> AN/APG-68V9.


what about the range etc??


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## Kompromat

he-man said:


> what about the range etc??



All details here.

apg68(v)9 Video


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## he-man

Aeronaut said:


> All details here.
> 
> apg68(v)9 Video



SORRY TO SAY BUT IT DOES NOT TELL ABOUT

1)PEAK POWER RATING
2)APERTURE SIZE
3)AVERAGE POWER
4)GAIN
5)RANGE

its just a pr video!!


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## DANGER-ZONE

he-man said:


> SORRY TO SAY BUT IT DOES NOT TELL ABOUT
> 
> 1)PEAK POWER RATING
> 2)APERTURE SIZE
> 3)AVERAGE POWER
> 4)GAIN
> 5)RANGE
> 
> its just a pr video!!



AN/APG-68(V)9 Multimode Fire Control Radar

No satisfaction even here then kindly contact Northrop Grumman.

https://apps.northropgrumman.com/RFIForms/Pages/ESGeneralRFI.aspx?PID=AN-10134&IsDlg=2

They might even give you one for detailed study.

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## he-man

DANGER-ZONE said:


> AN/APG-68(V)9 Multimode Fire Control Radar
> 
> No satisfaction, even here then kindly contact Northrop Grumman.
> 
> https://apps.northropgrumman.com/RFIForms/Pages/ESGeneralRFI.aspx?PID=AN-10134&IsDlg=2
> 
> They might even give you one for detailed study.



No nothing.........


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## HRK

RaptorRX707 said:


> @<u><a href="http://www.defence.pk/forums/member.php?u=21078" target="_blank">Windjammer</a></u>, do you have big picture of this or any link?



[video]http://www.********.com/view?i=2c9_1342842163[/video]

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## Side-Winder

That Guy said:


> Is this old, or did Pakistan participate in another red flag exercise recently?



it's actually a 'screen shot' from a video of Red Flag 2010


[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9mex8Cb9oc[/video]

@ 0:38





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=104700883072532

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## nomi007

/
PAF Inventory Program Model Block Qty. Serials Delivered
Peace Gate I F-16A Block 15 2 82701/82702 1983
F-16B Block 15 4 82601/82604 1983
Peace Gate II F-16A Block 15 26 83703, 84704/84719,
85720/85728 1983-1987
F-16B Block 15 8 82605, 84606/84608,
85609/85612 1983-1987
Peace Gate III F-16A block 15OCU 6 91729, 92730/92734 embargoed
F-16B Block 15OCU 5 91613, 92614/92617 embargoed
Peace Gate IV F-16A Block 15OCU 7 92735/92739, 93740/93741 embargoed
F-16B Block 15OCU 10 92618, 93619/93621,
94622/94624, 95625/95627 embargoed
F-16A Block 15OCU 41 9_742/9_782 stop-work
F-16B Block 15OCU 2 9_628/9_629 stop-work
Peace Drive F-16C Block 52 12 10901/10912 2010
F-16D Block 52 6 10801/10806 2010
Option F-16C/D Block 52 18 ? 2009-2010


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## Ahassan

Imran Khan said:


> from redflag video sir jee



aoa, imran........

buddy you should have atleast ask ...... for this picture .... before posting it here.....btw np...


regards

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## Imran Khan

airbus said:


> aoa, imran........
> 
> buddy you should have atleast ask ...... for this picture .... before posting it here.....btw np...
> 
> 
> regards



WS dear i just searched on google and found it . just search google images PAF red flag and you will found it in results . still i am so sorry if it was misused by me . my apology .

regards


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## airomerix

lol nobody needs permission for that image.
Its merely a snap shot from a HD video footage of our vipers at Nellis. No biggie.

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## nomi007

It is reported that, in order to prevent the advanced F-16 fighter technology leakage, the United States demanded that Pakistan will take strict precautions. Specific measures include: these fighters and ammunition and other countries fighters kept separate staff every six months on the U.S. F-16 inventory and related systems to conduct an inspection.




i read this statement on a web site
is it true
than why paf choose this piece of junk 
who is responsible

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## Donatello

nomi007 said:


> It is reported that, in order to prevent the advanced F-16 fighter technology leakage, the United States demanded that Pakistan will take strict precautions. Specific measures include: these fighters and ammunition and other countries fighters kept separate staff every six months on the U.S. F-16 inventory and related systems to conduct an inspection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i read this statement on a web site
> is it true
> than why paf choose this piece of junk
> who is responsible



Oh bhai,

this has been discussed to death. USA doesn't want the technology of the BLK52 F-16s in wrong hands. So they asked PAF to keep them separate. This is a very valid request from them.

Consider this:

Pakistan sells Iran JF-17s, and then in some air-combat, Iranians shoot our fighters down using that same JF-17. How would you feel? Or even worse, Iranians sell that technology to India or whatever nation? How would you feel then?

F-16s are several billion dollars worth of US state technology. Their corporations have every right to safe guard this technology.

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## rockstar08

does pak have a double seat f-16 ?


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## nomi007

Donatello said:


> Oh bhai,
> 
> this has been discussed to death. USA doesn't want the technology of the BLK52 F-16s in wrong hands. So they asked PAF to keep them separate. This is a very valid request from them.
> 
> Consider this:
> 
> Pakistan sells Iran JF-17s, and then in some air-combat, Iranians shoot our fighters down using that same JF-17. How would you feel? Or even worse, Iranians sell that technology to India or whatever nation? How would you feel then?
> 
> F-16s are several billion dollars worth of US state technology. Their corporations have every right to safe guard this technology.


bhai g that is not a valid reason
now i believe that we can't use these jets against india

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## MFK5000

yes....C/D block 52...arrived in 2010 at jacobbabad airbase...inspected by rao qamar suleman


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## araz

nomi007 said:


> bhai g that is not a valid reason
> now i believe that we can't use these jets against india



No one stops you from believing whatever you want to believe. So happy believing!!!!!

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## DANGER-ZONE

nomi007 said:


> bhai g that is not a valid reason
> *now i believe that we can't use these jets against india*



Now you've hit the jackpot 
Not just Blk52s but all the MLU F-16 will stay at shehbaz to prevent the so called *TECHNOLOGY LEAKAGE* unless our relations get bad with USA and then WE WILL BE FREE TO USE ALL *OUR F-16*. 
What an irony ! We say 'em our F-16s but we can't use them on our will

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## Kompromat

airbus said:


> aoa, imran........
> 
> buddy you should have atleast ask ...... for this picture .... before posting it here.....btw np...
> 
> 
> regards



This is not a copyrighted image, its from a HD video shot on the Red Flag exercise, which was published by AirBoyd channel on youtube.

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## araz

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Now you've hit the jackpot
> Not just Blk52s but all the MLU F-16 will stay at shehbaz to prevent the so called *TECHNOLOGY LEAKAGE* unless our relations get bad with USA and then WE WILL BE FREE TO USE ALL *OUR F-16*.
> What an irony ! We say 'em our F-16s but we can't use them on our will



A simple question for you. If the Chinese government sells you the J10B and you wanted to take it to the USA for some exercises what do you think the chinese will say.Bhai you broke their trust and now you are crying over the consequences of your own transgression. HOW FAIR IS THAT!!
ARaz

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## javanar

Donatello said:


> Oh bhai,
> 
> this has been discussed to death. USA doesn't want the technology of the BLK52 F-16s in wrong hands. So they asked PAF to keep them separate. This is a very valid request from them.
> 
> Consider this:
> 
> Pakistan sells Iran JF-17s, and then in some air-combat, Iranians shoot our fighters down using that same JF-17. How would you feel? Or even worse, Iranians sell that technology to India or whatever nation? How would you feel then?
> 
> F-16s are several billion dollars worth of US state technology. Their corporations have every right to safe guard this technology.



As I know the problem is about the firendly fire system in USA exported fighters. That system blocks your fighters from shooting targets those signal that it is a friendly fighter... USA does not want other countries(especially China) to decode that friendly fire system.

As I know your JF-17's are based on Chinese technology. If their radars are based on Chinese technology as well, you may try to introduce your China-based fighters as friendly fighters to F-16... That means China can intorduce their fighters to USA fighters as friendly fighters too. USA, obviously, do not want this to happen.

Turkey encountered the same problem. We wanted to buy HQ-9 air defence system from China. USA strictly opposed to the idea with the same reason. 

The interesting point is... USA do not say anything to Greeks who use F-16's along with Russian air defence systems. But they are really sensitive about combined defence systems those include NATO and Chinese items at the same time.

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## javanar

By the way... I am interested in JF-17. Do you produce all of its parts locally? More specifically, do you produce the software systems, radar, missiles and engine locally?

JF-17's BVR capabilities look like a good complement to our aging F-16 fleet.

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## Luftwaffe

javanar said:


> By the way... I am interested in JF-17. Do you produce all of its parts locally? More specifically, do you produce the software systems, radar, missiles and engine locally?
> 
> JF-17's BVR capabilities look like a good complement to our aging F-16 fleet.



Dig that information in JF-17 Threads.
JF-17 Thunder


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## razgriz19

I came across this video. its from the turkish airshow.
This is the BEST PAF F-16 performance i've seen (video quality wise and also in general).
Anyway, the narrator metions that this particular aircraft didn't have to come all the way from pakistan as it was there already, being upgraded by TAI. 

So the question is how many are done so far?

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## Yzd Khalifa

razgriz19 said:


> I came across this video. its from the turkish airshow.
> This is the BEST PAF F-16 performance i've seen (video quality wise and also in general).
> Anyway, the narrator metions that this particular aircraft didn't have to come all the way from pakistan as it was there already, being upgraded by TAI.
> 
> So the question is how many are done so far?



The JF-17 performance was actually more attractive than the F-16 IMHO. 

It remind me with this






Here is another interesting video of the F-16 of the PAF.


----------



## Neptune

How's the current progress on MLU upgrades to PAF vipers by TAI?


----------



## fatman17

Neptune said:


> How's the current progress on MLU upgrades to PAF vipers by TAI?



only 8 MLU kits have been transferred out of 45 to TAI. the program is facing delays due to US-PK relations.

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## RAMPAGE

fatman17 said:


> only 8 MLU kits have been transferred out of 45 to TAI. the program is facing delays due to US-PK relations.


 @Neptune you see that's why i'm not a big fan of T-129 deal !!!

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## fatman17

Supplies paid for with a mix of Pakistani national funds and FMF include:

! up to 60 Mid-Life Update kits for F-16A/B combat aircraft (valued at $891 million, with $477
million of this in FMF, Pakistan currently plans to purchase 45 such kits and 8 have been
delivered to date);

extract from CSR report dated March 7th 2013.

Discord in the U.S.-Pakistan bilateral relationship beginning mid-FY2011 has slowed the pace of transfers considerably


----------



## Yzd Khalifa

Can any of you list out the blocks of the F-16s the PAF operates.


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## nomi007

which airbase


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## That Guy

fatman17 said:


> Supplies paid for with a mix of Pakistani national funds and FMF include:
> 
> ! up to 60 Mid-Life Update kits for F-16A/B combat aircraft (valued at $891 million, with $477
> million of this in FMF, Pakistan currently plans to purchase 45 such kits and 8 have been
> delivered to date);
> 
> extract from CSR report dated March 7th 2013.
> 
> Discord in the U.S.-Pakistan bilateral relationship beginning mid-FY2011 has slowed the pace of transfers considerably



Has the transfer been completed? Do you think Turkey could take over if the US stops it's cooperation completely?


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## SQ8

That Guy said:


> Has the transfer been completed? Do you think Turkey could take over if the US stops it's cooperation completely?



I certainly doubt it. Turkey cannot produce certain parts and equipment required for the retrofit which come from the US. So while they are qualified to install the parts, they cannot produce exact replacements.


----------



## truthseeker2010

nomi007 said:


> which airbase



Nellis AFB Nevada


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## BATMAN

RAMPAGE said:


> @Neptune you see that's why i'm not a big fan of T-129 deal !!!



NATO - News: NATO Secretary General holds high-level talks with Serbia, Afghanistan, Pakistan , 26-Sep.-2013

Is this meeting and transit aid from Pakistan of no effect?


----------



## That Guy

Oscar said:


> I certainly doubt it. Turkey cannot produce certain parts and equipment required for the retrofit which come from the US. So while they are qualified to install the parts, they cannot produce exact replacements.



From what Turkish members on here tell me, the Turks have been producing the F-16s for a while now, so why not?


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## RAMPAGE

BATMAN said:


> NATO - News: NATO Secretary General holds high-level talks with Serbia, Afghanistan, Pakistan , 26-Sep.-2013
> 
> Is this meeting and transit aid from Pakistan of no effect?


Sorry i'm unable to see your point !!!


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## Luftwaffe

That Guy said:


> From what Turkish members on here tell me, the Turks have been producing the F-16s for a while now, so why not?



Correction, assembling kits F-16s.

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## That Guy

Luftwaffe said:


> Correction, assembling kits F-16s.



Ah, right.


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## Alpha1

Yzd Khalifa said:


> Can any of you list out the blocks of the F-16s the PAF operates.


Akhi!
F-16A/B Block 15 OCU
F-16C/D Block 50/52

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## SQ8

That Guy said:


> From what Turkish members on here tell me, the Turks have been producing the F-16s for a while now, so why not?



Well, production does not mean they produce all the parts. Much like the JF-17, there are certain avionics and systems that are not made in house. In case of the F-16 the APG-68 Radar, the Interface updates and other equipment that is manufactured exclusively in the US will have to arrive before it is integrated into the aircraft. As such, the program could have been carried out by the PAF at KAMRA but security concerns did not let it happen. It would have been the same had it been carried out inhouse.

What the TAI facilities are capable of they will perform, but just as a part is missing..the aircraft will sit on the sidelines before it comes through.

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## That Guy

Oscar said:


> Well, production does not mean they produce all the parts. Much like the JF-17, there are certain avionics and systems that are not made in house. In case of the F-16 the APG-68 Radar, the Interface updates and other equipment that is manufactured exclusively in the US will have to arrive before it is integrated into the aircraft. As such, the program could have been carried out by the PAF at KAMRA but security concerns did not let it happen. It would have been the same had it been carried out inhouse.
> 
> What the TAI facilities are capable of they will perform, but just as a part is missing..the aircraft will sit on the sidelines before it comes through.



Right, thanks for the info.


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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day*

&#8220;Fighter pilots make movies. Attack pilots make shitty movies. And don't believe those mudmovers who try to talk about history, either. Without the air-to-air stuff, I'll tell ya who's history... &#8221;
-- Anonymous

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## CometMibro

Good discussion folks, keep it up.


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## Neptune

fatman17 said:


> *Quote of the Day*
> 
> Fighter pilots make movies. Attack pilots make shitty movies.
> -- Anonymous



And Naval Aviators make the difference...

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## Tacticool

What is the status of upgrade program?


----------



## MZUBAIR

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> What is the status of upgrade program?



See the @fatman17 post

Fatman Post


----------



## dexter

PAF's F-16 Mid Life Update (MLU) program

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## Side-Winder

courtesy najam khan

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## fatman17

*Pakistani Air Force F-16 Pilots*
38 Pakistani Air Force pilots have reached 1,000 flying hours or more in the F-16 Fighting Falcon so far. 


* Gr.Capt. Aamir Masood *
(Updated: 3 Sep 2011)
| 9 sqn 

* Wg.Cmd. Ghazanfar Latif *
(Updated: 29 Dec 2012)
| 9 sqn 

* Wg.Cmd. Zulfiqar "Sidewinder" Ayub *
(Updated: 29 May 2010)
9 sqn | 9 sqn 

* Air.Cmd. Ashfaq Arain (Ret.) *
(Updated: 14 Sep 2011)


* Wg.Cmd. Umer "Archer" Rasheed *
(Updated: 17 Jul 2013)
11 sqn | 11 sqn 

* Wg.Cmd. Tariq Zia *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)
| 9 sqn 

* Wg.Cmd. Ali Naeem "Baaz" Zahoor *
(Updated: 13 Nov 2011)
11 sqn 

* Irfan Ahmed *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)


* Gp.Capt. Fauad Masud Hatmi *
(Updated: 22 Dec 2012)
11 sqn | 9 sqn 

* Wg.Cmd. M. Haseeb Paracha *
(Updated: 30 Aug 2010)
9 sqn | 11 sqn 

* Air.Vice.Marsh. Muhammad Iqbal *
(Updated: 22 Dec 2012)
| 9 sqn 

* Air.Vice.Marsh. Farhat Hussain Khan *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)


* Air.Vice.Marsh. Athar Bokhari (Ret.) *
(Updated: 22 Dec 2012)


* Air.Cmd. Khaleel Ahmed *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)
11 sqn 

* Sqn.Ldr. Haider "Tipu" Zaidi *
(Updated: 20 Feb 2011)
11 sqn 

* Wg.Cmd. Javad Saeed *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)


* Sqn.Ldr. Khalid Mahmood (Ret.) *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)


* Wg.Cmd. Bilal Hassan *
(Updated: 23 Sep 2012)
9 sqn | J-7 

* Wg.Cmd. Waqas Ahmed Sulehri *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)


* Wg.Cmd. Hamza Jamil *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)


* Sqn.Ldr. Omair Ahmed Najmi *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)
11 sqn 

* Sqn.Ldr. Moin "Tornado" Rana *
(Updated: 29 May 2010)


* Sqn.Ldr. Khalid Mehmood *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)
9 sqn 

* Sqn.Ldr. Azman Khalil *
(Updated: 1 Feb 2010)


* Sqn.Ldr. Asim "Mav-Slammer" Raja *
(Updated: 29 May 2010)
9 sqn 

* Sqn.Ldr. Nauman "Hornet" Ali *
(Updated: 29 Jan 2011)
11 sqn 

* Sqn.Ldr. Mustafa "Lightening" Orakzai *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2010)
11 sqn 

* Sqn.Ldr. Aftab "Viper-Phantom" Zia *
(Updated: 29 May 2010)
11 sqn 

* Sqn.Ldr. Shazib "Falcon" Mehmood *
(Updated: 21 Nov 2010)
11 sqn 

* Cdr. Sayed Muzaffar Ali (Ret.) *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)

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## fatman17

*Sqn.Ldr. Ali Asad Khan (Ret.) *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)


* Sqn.Ldr. Muhammad Azam *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)


* Wg.Cmd. Azher Hassan *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)


* Air.Cmd. Razi Nawab (Ret.) *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)


* Air.Cmd. Tariq Mahmud Ashraf *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)


* Air.Vice.Marsh. Waseem-ud-din (Ret.) *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)


* Air.Vice.Marsh. Mohammad Yousaf *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)


* Sqn.Ldr. Syed Omer Shah *
(Updated: 17 Feb 2009)
11 sqn

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## fatman17

*June 28/06: Pakistan.* Pakistan requests up to 96 MIDS-LVT terminals; 36 as part of its $3 billion request for up to 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52s, and 60 more MIDS-LVT units in their $1.3 billion request for F-16 mid-life update kits. Observant analysts note that Pakistan only has 28 older-model F-16A/Bs,(actually 32) which implies that these upgrades would be placed in second-hand F-16A/Bs acquired on the global market with US permission (the USA must approve all resales of the military equipment it sells).
Pakistan request

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## m haris khan

*Pakistan getting F-35 jets after 2020*
F-35 Lightning II

Role Stealth Multirole Fighter

First flight 15 December 2006

Introduction 2014 USAF

*Source:*
http://worlddefenseblog.blogspot.com/2013/10/pakistan-getting-f-35-jets-after-2020.html


----------



## Basel

> *Pakistan getting F-35 jets after 2020*
> F-35 Lightning II
> 
> Role Stealth Multirole Fighter
> 
> First flight 15 December 2006
> 
> Introduction 2014 USAF
> 
> *Source:*
> http://worlddefenseblog.blogspot.com/2013/10/pakistan-getting-f-35-jets-after-2020.html



You have posted a blog as a source, which is not reliable and US have not offered it to PAF and PAF have not shown any interest in it as their future 5th gen stealth plane.

Further F-35 project is already delayed and project member countries have long orders so Lockheed Martin will be very busy in fulfilling those first after that NATO and allies will come next and US don't want its best tech to fall into Chinese hand so its nearly impossible for PAF to get them without giving too much away.

Also our new and upgraded F-16 are not 4.5 gen planes because US have not provided AESA radars for them. If US is not willing to sale systems which can make PAF balance power in the region than how they may be willing to sale somthing which might give PAF some edge in Air, specially when they are getting closer n closer to India to counter rising China.


----------



## nomi007

Azm-e-Nau-4

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## shanixee

nomi007 said:


> Azm-e-Nau-4


All 3 are from different squadrons....


----------



## nomi007

shanixee said:


> All 3 are from different squadrons....


no


----------



## Donatello

nomi007 said:


> Azm-e-Nau-4




Shiny fresh F-16s.

84705 and 84713 seem the MLU-ed ones.

The third one is the blk52+ with cfts


----------



## araz

This white and green background is making my life really difficult. Could someone please change it. .

.


----------



## SQ8

nomi007 said:


> no


Yes and No. The Block 52 in the back is from 5sq. The MLU jets belong to 11sq in Sargodha but are based at Shabaz to work with 5sq as a Block-52 avionics conversion unit.

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## PiyaraPakistan

nomi007 said:


> Azm-e-Nau-4


The signs(eagle etc) below Pakistani flag, what it indicate? to perform different roles or something else.?


----------



## nomi007

i think paf change camo style of jets into digital camouflage


----------



## Last Hope

Donatello said:


> Shiny fresh F-16s.
> 
> 84705 and 84713 seem the MLU-ed ones.
> 
> The third one is the blk52+ with cfts



They have all golden canopies too.


----------



## SQ8

Last Hope said:


> They have all golden canopies too.


Have Glass-I canopies.


> indium-tin-oxide layer to the gold tinted cockpit canopy. This is reflective to radar frequencies but actually reduces the plane's visibility to radar. An ordinary canopy would let radar signals straight through where they would strike the many edges and corners inside and bounce back strongly to the source, the reflective layer dissipates these signals instead.


The Gold tint goes dark when exposed to high levels of radiation.. say after a nuclear blast.


----------



## Last Hope

Oscar said:


> Have Glass-I canopies.
> 
> The Gold tint goes dark when exposed to high levels of radiation.. say after a nuclear blast.


That's what I pointed out. I don't reckon 705 and 713 to have these prior to the MLU.


----------



## SQ8

Last Hope said:


> That's what I pointed out. I don't reckon 705 and 713 to have these prior to the MLU.



Some of them did have them, as replacement canopies were sourced from various suppliers prior to the MLU. e.g is 85728.. which had a gold tint prior to MLU.


----------



## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Some of them did have them, as replacement canopies were sourced from various suppliers prior to the MLU. e.g is 85728.. which had a gold tint prior to MLU.



Number 84713 has some white 'pod' under the intake, what is it? Air data pod?

Also, isn't Gold canopy dangerous for pilots, since it increases the spatial disorientation of the pilot while flying at night?


----------



## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Number 84713 has some white 'pod' under the intake, what is it? Air data pod?
> 
> Also, isn't Gold canopy dangerous for pilots, since it increases the spatial disorientation of the pilot while flying at night?



Not really, the canopy works fine at night as well.


----------



## Anubis

How old are Pak f16s??When are they going to be decommissioned??What would be a probable replacement?


----------



## Basel

@Anubis your second question is a million dollar question, because I think even PAF personal may not answer that.


----------



## SQ8

Anubis said:


> How old are Pak f16s??When are they going to be decommissioned??What would be a probable replacement?





Basel said:


> @Anubis your second question is a million dollar question, because I think even PAF personal may not answer that.



Who needs PAF personnel. The first PAF F-16 was manufactured in 1981 and delivered in 82. As such the average age of PAF F-16s is 30 years although the number of flight hours varies across the fleet. But basing it on a similar average as European MLU aircraft the F-16s after upgrade are good till 2025..

However, most likely the F-16s will continue further till 2030 until the Chinese have the second 5th Gen aircraft ready to go.

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## Basel

@Oscar I referred to the second question, it was "What would be a probable replacement?" and F-16s will become like mirages in future and PAF will definitely need a front line fighter plane. can u tell exactly which one it will be?


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## RAMPAGE

Anubis said:


> How old are Pak f16s??When are they going to be decommissioned??What would be a probable replacement?


i think the 41 f-16 A/B blk 15's which are going through MLU upgrade process will get 5000 hours of airframe service life and will be designated as f-16 AM/BM blk 15 and they will be equal to F-16C/D Block 50/52. than there are 18 new F-16C/D Block 50/52's. also there are the 13-14 F-16A/B Block 15 OCU but i dont know about their current status ....... maybe @Oscar can tell us about them.

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## SQ8

Basel said:


> @Oscar I referred to the second question, it was "What would be a probable replacement?" and F-16s will become like mirages in future and PAF will definitely need a front line fighter plane. can u tell exactly which one it will be?



Depends on the condition of Pakistan. You are talking about 20 years into the future. However, in their role as Pakistanis front line fighters it is very likely that they might be replaced by a Chinese 5th gen.



RAMPAGE said:


> i think the 41 f-16 A/B blk 15's which are going through MLU upgrade process will get 5000 hours of airframe service life and will be designated as f-16 AM/BM blk 15 and they will be equal to F-16C/D Block 50/52. than there are 18 new F-16C/D Block 50/52's. also there are the* 13-14 F-16A/B Block 15 OCU* but i dont know about their current status ....... maybe @Oscar can tell us about them.




From Peace gate-I order: 5 F-16s still active
From Peace gate-II order: 27 F-16s still active
Additional Airframes delivered from embargoed jets = 11
That makes 43 F-16A/B MLU. along with 18 F-16C/D for a total of 61 F-16s. 
The 13-14 frames have not been allotted and are probably not happening anytime soon.

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## RAMPAGE

Oscar said:


> Depends on the condition of Pakistan. You are talking about 20 years into the future. However, in their role as Pakistanis front line fighters it is very likely that they might be replaced by a Chinese 5th gen.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From Peace gate-I order: 5 F-16s still active
> From Peace gate-II order: 27 F-16s still active
> Additional Airframes delivered from embargoed jets = 11
> That makes 43 F-16A/B MLU. along with 18 F-16C/D for a total of 61 F-16s.
> The 13-14 frames have not been allotted and are probably not happening anytime soon.


how much service life remains in the 43 F-16A/B MLUs ???

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## SQ8

RAMPAGE said:


> how much service life remains in the 43 F-16A/B MLUs ???



All good for


RAMPAGE said:


> how much service life remains in the 43 F-16A/B MLUs ???



Most are good for another 4000-5000 hours.

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## khanasifm

32 left from 80s order, 14 embargo delivered 32+14 =46, counting crashed one, 44/45 left, 3 mul in u.s. 41 in turkey, unless some candalized for spares. Additional 14 of embargo are still pending 20 plus per sqdn enough for 20 years with attrition or 15 per sqdn for 3 sqdn by replacing another f7 same for 10 year attrition


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## Last Hope

Oscar said:


> Some of them did have them, as replacement canopies were sourced from various suppliers prior to the MLU. e.g is 85728.. which had a gold tint prior to MLU.


Another example is 707 which also had the same canopy. Those in the picture, I don't recall them having it. The question is, does the MLU package come with upgraded canopies?


----------



## SQ8

Last Hope said:


> Another example is 707 which also had the same canopy. Those in the picture, I don't recall them having it. The question is, does the MLU package come with upgraded canopies?



The Canopies are a separate request and dont come with MLU.

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## nomi007

Basel said:


> @Oscar I referred to the second question, it was "What would be a probable replacement?" and F-16s will become like mirages in future and PAF will definitely need a front line fighter plane. can u tell exactly which one it will be?


i think j-31 and jf-17 block 3

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## Basel

> i think j-31 and jf-17 block 3



but how can u say that J-31 will be PAF choice, do u think it will fulfill PAF future requirements?


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## Basel

Please let me know that does new mig-29 upg and k have very superior equipment than our new and upgraded F-16s, because in following thread that has been said.
*scam of biblical proportions...............mirage 2000 upgrade*


----------



## nomi007

Basel said:


> but how can u say that J-31 will be PAF choice, do u think it will fulfill PAF future requirements?


f-35
kf-x
tf-x
all above are fifth gen aircrafts
will use american base engines
and will be too costly

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## Basel

> f-35
> kf-x
> tf-x
> all above are fifth gen aircrafts
> will use american base engines
> and will be too costly



True, but you cant say that PAF will go for J-31 because there were some news of MOU on some stealth project between China and Pakistan, which seems to drive from JF-17 which may means 5th gen plane with one engine and specifically made for PAF just like JF-17.

J-31 is short legged like Mig-29, it is small and still it uses 2 engines which means China does not have powerful engine to make single engine plane. China have to come up an engine which is some thing similar like F-35s.


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## nomi007

*This cool image shows what an F-16 flare cartridge looks like*
*although its not paf's f-16*
*




*

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## nomi007

Basel said:


> True, but you cant say that PAF will go for J-31 because there were some news of MOU on some stealth project between China and Pakistan, which seems to drive from JF-17 which may means 5th gen plane with one engine and specifically made for PAF just like JF-17.
> 
> J-31 is short legged like Mig-29, it is small and still it uses 2 engines which means China does not have powerful engine to make single engine plane. China have to come up an engine which is some thing similar like F-35s.


there is no any restriction in constitution regarding twin engine jet


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## Basel

> there is no any restriction in constitution regarding twin engine jet



True, but economics don't allow us, also twin engine J-31 looks similar to F-6 and A-5 in terms of engine deficiencies, they were twin engine planes due to non availability of a powerful engine.


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## InVader_FaDi

during Azm-Nu 4 Ex

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## nomi007

*From the cockpit: F-16 solo, diving towards the ground while turning and releasing flares remember this is not paf-16*
*reason to post image is to understand the f-16s*
*



*

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## Neptune

nomi007 said:


> *From the cockpit: F-16 solo, diving towards the ground while turning and releasing flares remember this is not paf-16*
> *reason to post image is to understand the f-16s*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *



SOLOTURK!!!

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## Arsalan

There had been silence on the MLU front. Have we got any more after the first three planes that were upgraded?


> *PAF F-16 BLOCK 15 AIRCRAFT ARRIVES AFTER MID LIFE UPGRADE
> First Batch of three F-16 Block 15 MLU (Mid Life Upgrade) aircraft have arrived from Ankara, Turkey. *The aircraft which were earlier sent to TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industries) for Mid Life Upgrade and have been delivered to PAF on time. In October 2010, PAF had signed a contract with TAI to upgrade all its F-16 Block 15 aircraft. Under the Peace Drive II program, TAI is performing avionics and structural modernization of F-16 aircraft that are on the inventory of Pakistan Air Force since 1982-83 and the project is planned to be completed by September 2014. To commemorate the event, a simple ceremony was held at PAF Base Shahbaz, Deputy Chief of the Air Staff (Operations) Air Marshal Waseem ud din along with PAF officials attended the ceremony.
> *PAKISTAN AIR FORCE - Official website*



these are the only three that are confirmed. There are some 40 planes that had to be upgraded and the project is supposed to be completed by September 2014. So with more then half of project timeline gone there must be more planes that have been upgraded but no new about them... ANYONE?


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## Arsalan

This is a news articles from 2013 January. So this means the program is going on and it is just that there had been not much talk about it?



it will be good if someone can shed some kight on the current status of the MLU project!



> Pakistan, US discuss Pakistan Air Force's F-16 programme
> 
> 
> 
> ISLAMABAD: Pakistan and the US today discussed the Pakistan Air Force's F-16 programme, including a mid-life upgrade of its fleet of older combat jets.
> 
> 
> 
> US Ambassador Richard Olson met PAF chief Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt at Air Headquarters and discussed the F-16 programme and "various areas of further corporation"" a PAF statement said.
> 
> 
> 
> Later, Olson visited Shahbaz airbase for an on-site briefing on the F-16 programme.
> 
> 
> 
> A statement from the US Embassy said Olson and Butt reviewed the F-16 programme but did not give details.
> 
> 
> 
> *Official sources said an ongoing upgrade of 45 F-16s of the PAF in Turkey figured in the discussions.*
> 
> 
> 
> *The Turkish Aerospace Industries will refurbish the jets under a contract signed in October 2010.*
> 
> 
> 
> *The first batch of three upgraded F-16 jets was delivered to Pakistan last year.*
> 
> 
> 
> Olson said the F-16 programme represented a concrete example of US-Pakistan cooperation "to support our shared security goals and to promote peace and stability in the region".
> 
> 
> 
> He reaffirmed the importance of a strong US-Pakistan security relationship during the meeting with Butt.
> 
> 
> 
> "Both sides affirmed their mutual commitment to a strong defence relationship which they agreed should focus on achieving common objectives," the US Embassy statement said.
> 
> 
> 
> The PAF has been flying F-16s since the early 1980s. In 2008, PAF bought the advanced Block 52 model, which provides all-weather and day-night precision targeting capability.
> 
> 
> 
> The US delivered 18 new F-16 D Block 52 jets to Pakistan in 2011-12. The US Foreign Military Assistance programme is helping PAF upgrade its fleet of older F-16 aircraft.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan, US discuss Pakistan Air Force's F-16 programme - Economic Times


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## nomi007



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## HRK

nomi007 said:


>



chaff dispenser .... ???


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## Munir

nomi007 said:


> *From the cockpit: F-16 solo, diving towards the ground while turning and releasing flares remember this is not paf-16*
> *reason to post image is to understand the f-16s*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *


I met this guy and his child. Very friendly and fine pilot.

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## slapshot

nomi007 said:


> Azm-e-Nau-4



Wondering why the Jet with CFT carrying external drop tanks ?


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## DANGER-ZONE

nomi007 said:


>





HRK said:


> chaff dispenser .... ???



This is an Israeli F-16 showing how they installed extra chaff & flare dispensers under the fuselage.
Old Falcons had only two chaff and flare dispensers right at the edge of horizontal stabilators.

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## Munir

The Norwegians had a pylon with chaff and flare dispenser. Wrong idea cause these were hitting the aircraft after being launched.The Israeli are allowed to do everything (it is USA-2) but this idea looks strange. Block 52 has extra stations direct next to the previous ones.

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## nomi007




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## shanixee

nomi007 said:


>


If PAF is in talk with different countries for new fleet we cannot rule out talks for EU 2000 apart from J10B


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## Chak Bamu

shanixee said:


> If PAF is in talk with different countries for new fleet we cannot rule out talks for EU 2000 apart from J10B



Not likely. We can not be certain about J10B, but Typhoon is too expensive for us. We can rule that out for sure.


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## shanixee

Chak Bamu said:


> Not likely. We can not be certain about J10B, but Typhoon is too expensive for us. We can rule that out for sure.


I agree with you...but you see we dont have much options. As COAS said they are in talks with different countries to induct a new platform. we can safely assume J10B is for sure..in other platform only EU2000 is left because India already finalized Rafale. we can not bid on any Russian jet.
anyways this is my personal opinion.


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## Chak Bamu

shanixee said:


> I agree with you...but you see we dont have much options. As COAS said they are in talks with different countries to induct a new platform. we can safely assume J10B is for sure..in other platform only EU2000 is left because India already finalized Rafale. we can not bid on any Russian jet.
> anyways this is my personal opinion.



Nothing is certain or sure, including Rafale for India. We are at the edge of survival because of our economy. That alone matters more than any weapon system. You are reading too much into a statement. What happens is more important than what is said.


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## shanixee

Chak Bamu said:


> Nothing is certain or sure, including Rafale for India. We are at the edge of survival because of our economy. That alone matters more than any weapon system. You are reading too much into a statement. What happens is more important than what is said.


yeah maybe COAS wanted to get rid of journalist..


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## Munir

1. we already tested Rafale years ago...
2. India has tested it so heavily and decided it to buy... Why would Pakistan?
3. It is as expensive as....
4. we are not arabs so we buy EF2000...

If FC20...Super. Else J31 in the far future. Nothing else.

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## trident2010

Munir said:


> 1. we already tested Rafale years ago...
> 2. India has tested it so heavily and decided it to buy... Why would Pakistan?
> 3. It is as expensive as....
> 4. we are not arabs so we buy EF2000...
> 
> If FC20...Super. Else J31 in the far future. Nothing else.



PAF can buy few squadrons of either Typhoon, Rafale or Grippen as a stop gap until they have FC-20 or J-31. First three are available now and can be inducted much quicker than latter two.


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## Munir

Trident... Just buy a few squadrons? How would you explain that these options would be quicker? Are you sarcastic?


----------



## 美味中国

Can open the picture

How to send pictures?


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## Munir

The issue is that we need air defense and not massive ground attack or deep strike. So do we need big planes and risk pilots or tracking by enemy?

In the past one needed two engines and two pilots to have decent range, weaponload and big radar with good avionics. Now with netcentric warfare and much smaller sensors the goal is no longer huge planes. Besides that at the moment passing the border is a jump in the middle of the minefield! Both sides have tons of radars, sams etc...

I do not think J16 fits in Pakistani profile. Pakistan moved to asymmetric warfare. Most deep strike work is moved to BM/CM or smart weapons. Even on the border they moved to small nuclear bombs (Nasr)...

One thing that does fit is the J31. Till then we will see nothing else besides... JF17, FC20. Trust me.

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## 美味中国

Munir said:


> The issue is that we need air defense and not massive ground attack or deep strike. So do we need big planes and risk pilots or tracking by enemy?
> 
> In the past one needed two engines and two pilots to have decent range, weaponload and big radar with good avionics. Now with netcentric warfare and much smaller sensors the goal is no longer huge planes. Besides that at the moment passing the border is a jump in the middle of the minefield! Both sides have tons of radars, sams etc...
> 
> I do not think J16 fits in Pakistani profile. Pakistan moved to asymmetric warfare. Most deep strike work is moved to BM/CM or smart weapons. Even on the border they moved to small nuclear bombs (Nasr)...
> 
> One thing that does fit is the J31. Till then we will see nothing else besides... JF17, FC20. Trust me.


What time is now in Pakistan? China is now the time is 22:55


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## janu.bravo

美味中国 said:


> What time is now in Pakistan? China is now the time is 22:55


20:03

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## 美味中国

janu.bravo said:


> 20:03


Friend, have you had your supper?


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## nomi007

*F-16* vs *F-2




*

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

shanixee said:


> I agree with you...but you see we dont have much options. *As COAS said they are in talks with different countries to induct a new platform.* we can safely assume J10B is for sure..in other platform only EU2000 is left because India already finalized Rafale. we can not bid on any Russian jet.
> anyways this is my personal opinion.


when did this development happened ?


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## Basel

Pakistan can get Euro Fighters at least 32 planes if our Prime Minister use his special relations with KSA and beg them for their financing and support for the deal. It will be peace of cake for them to do that if its in their interest.

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## ejaz007

Basel said:


> Pakistan can get Euro Fighters at least 32 planes if our Prime Minister use his special relations with KSA and beg them for their financing and support for the deal. It will be peace of cake for them to do that if its in their interest.




Wouldn't it be more cost effective and suitable for PAF to obtain 50 F-16's then beg for 32 Euro fighters.

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## MastanKhan

ejaz007 said:


> Wouldn't it be more cost effective and suitable for PAF to obtain 50 F-16's then beg for 32 Euro fighters.



Hi,

If it is a 100 F16's with aesa---then maybe---but the eurofighter would be a game changer in the region and 32 is a good number.

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## Sinnerman108

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If it is a 100 F16's with aesa---then maybe---but the eurofighter would be a game changer in the region and 32 is a good number.



The EuroFighters will require air bases to operate from .. no ?

Plane for plane, if the eurofighters managed to down indian aggression
Indians will still be left with more than enough planes to dominate the air space.

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## nomi007

View attachment 11344



nomi007 said:


> *F-16* vs *F-2
> 
> 
> 
> *

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## Basel

> Wouldn't it be more cost effective and suitable for PAF to obtain 50 F-16's then beg for 32 Euro fighters.



No, it will not, because if we take the route as I have mentioned before, that one thing which we can add in it through KSA influence is that avionics and engine for JF-17s then no need for more F-16s because if Euro Fighter level avionics and advance engine is installed in JF-17s it will supersede F-16s in many areas.


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## Storm Force

Rubbish s single block 52 falcon would wipe the floor with up to three thunders. The f16 is the best paf have thunder is a realtive modest technology. And deep down u all know this is true. Heck the f16/52 is better than the j10. Nevermind the thunder

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## RAMPAGE

Storm Force said:


> Rubbish s single block 52 falcon would wipe the floor with up to three thunders. The f16 is the best paf have thunder is a realtive modest technology. And deep down u all know this is true. Heck the f16/52 is better than the j10. Nevermind the thunder


For now, yes. Don't want to sound like a fanboy but wait till block 3 comes around. It will be quite superior to the blk 52+

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## Donatello

salman108 said:


> The EuroFighters will require air bases to operate from .. no ?
> 
> Plane for plane, if the eurofighters managed to down indian aggression
> Indians will still be left with more than enough planes to dominate the air space.



Now that is a big 'If'

For that to happen, PAF needs to get Eurofighter First & Fast.

Unless J-10 shows credible maturity, i think PAF should give up on that and asf the Eurofighter consortium for dealing on Typhoons. I am sure they would be more than happy to offer a deal to trounce the already export dead Rafale.


----------



## Superboy

Storm Force said:


> Rubbish s single block 52 falcon would wipe the floor with up to three thunders. The f16 is the best paf have thunder is a realtive modest technology. And deep down u all know this is true. Heck the f16/52 is better than the j10. Nevermind the thunder



That is your opinion. JF-17 is the world's first fighter jet equipped with DSI, and has MAWS and glass cockpit which F-16C Block 52 lacks. Block 2 Thunder gets wide angle holographic HUD which is superior to the HUD in F-16C Block 52.

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## ejaz007

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If it is a 100 F16's with aesa---then maybe---but the eurofighter would be a game changer in the region and 32 is a good number.



With the induction of F-35 and F-22 F-16 shall become redundant and available as EDA. We have already received F-16's as EDA equipment. There is no reason to believe that more shall not be available in future.

Why add another maintenance and logistics system if we can get good fighter at far less cost.

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## trident2010

Munir said:


> Trident... Just buy a few squadrons? How would you explain that these options would be quicker? Are you sarcastic?



I meant to say that these planes are in active duty and if purchased then can be inducted much quicker than J-10 and J-31, which is still undergoing the tests.


----------



## ejaz007

Basel said:


> No, it will not, because if we take the route as I have mentioned before, that one thing which we can add in it through KSA influence is that avionics and engine for JF-17s then no need for more F-16s because if Euro Fighter level avionics and advance engine is installed in JF-17s it will supersede F-16s in many areas.



Stop relying on other nations support.

Whatever resources we have at our disposal we should utilize them to the fullest possible extent. Good planning is the need of the hour not a ride on Saudi's back which in any way is not coming.

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## Storm Force

Ejaz is right you can get cheap f16 when the NATO nations scrap them for f35 in 2020....this is when India starts license production of 144 fgfa....fifth gen fighter. We wil have finished induction of 275 Su30 mki by 2018


----------



## Munir

ejaz007 said:


> With the induction of F-35 and F-22 F-16 shall become redundant and available as EDA. We have already received F-16's as EDA equipment. There is no reason to believe that more shall not be available in future.



Welcome in the world of dirty politics. Welcome to the reality...

It is a sarcastic note. The world can be seen as a very complex selfish system. On top there is the war at the moment between China and the USA. And you see that almost everything is related to that. Whether it is the control of the best oil (Iran, Irac, Saudia) or assisting at the moment Japan with air space dominance... Or arming India with latest American weapons... In that equitation Pakistan is no longer valuable when USA retreats (yes it lost the war) from Afghanistan. You will see more and more openly anti Pakistani statements. Just wait a few more months. And I guess "giving" F16's is to PAF is pretty much daydreaming. In the past you had "commercial" f6 parts passing through Turkey. I bet that is a bigger problem for the MLU and block52 if it is needed in the future.

It is not anti USA attitude not hatred towards anyone. And it is pretty much the same in every other nation. George Orwell had been wrong. It was not 1984 but a lot earlier. To get or to keep economical/political power politicians/rulers do not care about human rights or equality... Just look at your own politicians. So the usual talk about getting free or we are misjudged... Just read the newspapers for a few days and you will wake up.

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## ejaz007

Munir said:


> Welcome in the world of dirty politics. Welcome to the reality...
> 
> It is a sarcastic note. The world can be seen as a very complex selfish system. On top there is the war at the moment between China and the USA. And you see that almost everything is related to that. Whether it is the control of the best oil (Iran, Irac, Saudia) or assisting at the moment Japan with air space dominance... Or arming India with latest American weapons... In that equitation Pakistan is no longer valuable when USA retreats (yes it lost the war) from Afghanistan. You will see more and more openly anti Pakistani statements. Just wait a few more months. And I guess "giving" F16's is to PAF is pretty much daydreaming. In the past you had "commercial" f6 parts passing through Turkey. I bet that is a bigger problem for the MLU and block52 if it is needed in the future.
> 
> It is not anti USA attitude not hatred towards anyone. And it is pretty much the same in every other nation. George Orwell had been wrong. It was not 1984 but a lot earlier. To get or to keep economical/political power politicians/rulers do not care about human rights or equality... Just look at your own politicians. So the usual talk about getting free or we are misjudged... Just read the newspapers for a few days and you will wake up.



In the scenario as portrayed by you Pakistan's importance increases and not decreases. The reason is simple. If in future US China economic or military war becomes reality then first USA would like to close any escape routes for China and that is only Pakistan.

China is already investing here to ensure that route remains open.

So welcome to the world of dirty politics.


----------



## MastanKhan

Basel said:


> No, it will not, because if we take the route as I have mentioned before, that one thing which we can add in it through KSA influence is that avionics and engine for JF-17s then no need for more F-16s because if Euro Fighter level avionics and advance engine is installed in JF-17s it will supersede F-16s in many areas.




Son,

It is not alright to brag about your stupidity so openly.



ejaz007 said:


> With the induction of F-35 and F-22 F-16 shall become redundant and available as EDA. We have already received F-16's as EDA equipment. There is no reason to believe that more shall not be available in future.
> 
> Why add another maintenance and logistics system if we can get good fighter at far less cost.





Hi,

It is agreeable to a certain extent----but an aircraft with the capability of a eurofighter would be welcome additon. Rafale was a better option---but paf got decieved by itself.

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## ejaz007

MastanKhan said:


> Son,
> 
> It is not alright to brag about your stupidity so openly.
> 
> Hi,
> 
> It is agreeable to a certain extent----but an aircraft with the capability of a eurofighter would be welcome additon. Rafale was a better option---but paf got decieved by itself.



Yes agreed.

My view is that instead of inducting 32 or so such fighters it is better to try to induct 50 or so F-16's.


----------



## Munir

MastanKhan said:


> Son,
> 
> It is not alright to brag about your stupidity so openly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> It is agreeable to a certain extent----but an aircraft with the capability of a eurofighter would be welcome additon. Rafale was a better option---but paf got decieved by itself.



Please explain. I think that issues with cash is the biggest...


----------



## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> Son,
> 
> It is not alright to brag about your stupidity so openly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> It is agreeable to a certain extent----but an aircraft with the capability of a eurofighter would be welcome additon. Rafale was a better option---but paf got decieved by itself.




From my view i believe Typhoon was a much better option for PAF, since it was a Pan European collaboration, the potential for growth in that fighter is immense, not looking at the export customers. Remember, Rafale has yet to sign a foreign deal. The hulla bulla around IAF MMRCA doesn't count until it is actually signed.

But then reality strikes. As of now, Pakistan has no money to dish out on billions of Rafale or Typhoons. Unless PAF can secure a loan akin to the SAAB ERIEYE deal from a foreign bank. But given PAF's recent fiasco, it might be bit hard.

If my personal views counted for anything, F-16 is the best bet, with MLU, but then US-PAK relations are so poor now.



ejaz007 said:


> With the induction of F-35 and F-22 F-16 shall become redundant and available as EDA. We have already received F-16's as EDA equipment. There is no reason to believe that more shall not be available in future.
> 
> Why add another maintenance and logistics system if we can get good fighter at far less cost.




A fully armed and upgraded F-16 can take on anything Typhoon or Rafale could throw at it. Above all, F-16s are combat tested. The problem is, since 1990s, F-16s have become something like a bitter success for PAF.

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## Zarvan

Donatello said:


> From my view i believe Typhoon was a much better option for PAF, since it was a Pan European collaboration, the potential for growth in that fighter is immense, not looking at the export customers. Remember, Rafale has yet to sign a foreign deal. The hulla bulla around IAF MMRCA doesn't count until it is actually signed.
> 
> But then reality strikes. As of now, Pakistan has no money to dish out on billions of Rafale or Typhoons. Unless PAF can secure a loan akin to the SAAB ERIEYE deal from a foreign bank. But given PAF's recent fiasco, it might be bit hard.
> 
> If my personal views counted for anything, F-16 is the best bet, with MLU, but then US-PAK relations are so poor now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A fully armed and upgraded F-16 can take on anything Typhoon or Rafale could throw at it. Above all, F-16s are combat tested. The problem is, since 1990s, F-16s have become something like a bitter success for PAF.


Even if we have billions of dollars to buy weapons go for J-10 B will be most safe option first reason is that we can easily get them and also ask China to produce them as fast as they can secondly their would be no spare parts issue and third is related to 2nd our relations with Europe can't be trusted so better go for Chinese because we can get planes and that too as many as we want and also no issue of spare parts and also we can get them with TOT @Munir


----------



## Donatello

Zarvan said:


> Even if we have billions of dollars to buy weapons go for J-10 B will be most safe option first reason is that we can easily get them and also ask China to produce them as fast as they can secondly their would be no spare parts issue and third is related to 2nd our relations with Europe can't be trusted so better go for Chinese because we can get planes and that too as many as we want and also no issue of spare parts and also we can get them with TOT @Munir


J-10B is not ready and not mature yet.

We have to see how it turns out.

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## Immanuel

Tall dreams were made and shattered, PAF will not get any more access to F-16s (new or old) US will not permit the sale, any of the eurocanards are out of reach quite simply because Pak cannot afford them. None of the Euro companies or Govt. are in any financial positions to give out alms.

Your best bet is J-10 which is a low quality bird just like Thunder. Furthermore dreams were made to think the future blocks of Blunders can actually match Unkil's Block52. Avionics wise, they will always stay inferior to anything made in Russia, US or Europe.


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Donatello said:


> J-10B is not ready and not mature yet.
> We have to see how it turns out.



Financial support is required to turn these things mature ..... J-10B over J-10 is like F-16/B60 over B50. Arabs pushed money in relatively new system got ready in no time. Where as Pakistan wants similar thing on soft loans, even on that Its not sure that whether it could pay in full or not.
And no hard feelings but it makes me laugh so hard when people say here that J-10B is not mature or China want to built it for itself first.
We want to enjoy the chocolate cake while our pocket hardly bears normal food.



Immanuel said:


> Tall dreams were made and shattered, PAF will not get any more access to F-16s (new or old) US will not permit the sale, any of the eurocanards are out of reach quite simply because Pak cannot afford them. None of the Euro companies or Govt. are in any financial positions to give out alms.
> 
> Your best bet is J-10 which is a low quality bird just like Thunder. Furthermore dreams were made to think the future blocks of *Blunders *can actually match Unkil's Block52. Avionics wise, t*hey will always stay inferior to anything made in Russia, US or Europe.*



India bhe likh de, likh de "will be inferior to Tejas" ..... India se bahar har cheez inferior he hoti chahye wo J-10, J-20 ho ya chahye F-22 he ho ....

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## Immanuel

Woh sab likhne ki zarurat nahi, woh to given hai. Rafale aa jaye tho F-22 ki bhi laga sakthe hein.


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## nomi007

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> when did this development happened ?


in dreams


----------



## Basel

> Stop relying on other nations support.
> 
> Whatever resources we have at our disposal we should utilize them to the fullest possible extent. Good planning is the need of the hour not a ride on Saudi's back which in any way is not coming.





> Son,
> 
> It is not alright to brag about your stupidity so openly.



All of you who are replying to my 2nd post please read the previous post and then respond. I m not fool and troll, I post on my knowledge and understanding.


----------



## Munir

There is no alternative but J10B. We cannot afford it nor will they provide us. Please try to convince me that there is an alternative

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## TOPGUN

Storm Force said:


> Barman what American money does India have. We have indian money generated by Indian companies we don't get handouts like pakistanis
> 
> Without a proper GDP and proper economy your military will remain ill equipped and weak. Only the big rich nations can afford real modern hardware....youpeople are tterrible weak financially




Torn Force , we see that you are going back to your trolling habits be careful and as I always have told you before always remember where you are when you are here . And for your information Pakistan's armed forces are not weak from anywhere just go ask your indian gov and get a mind awakening .

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## ejaz007

Donatello said:


> From my view i believe Typhoon was a much better option for PAF, since it was a Pan European collaboration, the potential for growth in that fighter is immense, not looking at the export customers. Remember, Rafale has yet to sign a foreign deal. The hulla bulla around IAF MMRCA doesn't count until it is actually signed.
> 
> But then reality strikes. As of now, Pakistan has no money to dish out on billions of Rafale or Typhoons. Unless PAF can secure a loan akin to the SAAB ERIEYE deal from a foreign bank. But given PAF's recent fiasco, it might be bit hard.
> 
> If my personal views counted for anything, F-16 is the best bet, with MLU, but then US-PAK relations are so poor now.
> 
> A fully armed and upgraded F-16 can take on anything Typhoon or Rafale could throw at it. Above all, F-16s are combat tested. The problem is, since 1990s, F-16s have become something like a bitter success for PAF.


 
Also F-16 are less expensive to maintain than either typhoon or rafael.

It is better to utilize and improve the experience we already have with F-16 then to begin from scrath with Typhoon or Rafael.



Storm Force said:


> Barman what American money does India have. We have indian money generated by Indian companies we don't get handouts like pakistanis
> 
> Without a proper GDP and proper economy your military will remain ill equipped and weak. Only the big rich nations can afford real modern hardware....youpeople are tterrible weak financially


 
Economies around the glob are facing economic crisis. This is not something unique. Even American are reducing force because of the same problem. Indian economy is also suffering from slow down.

What is a proper GDP care to explain.

We are not getting free US money. A large portion of it if not all is money paid to us for using our land, air and sea routes for US and Allied forces stationed in Afghanistan. We might be weak at the moment but this shall not last for ever.


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## Munir

Storm Force said:


> Barman what American money does India have. We have indian money generated by Indian companies we don't get handouts like pakistanis
> 
> Without a proper GDP and proper economy your military will remain ill equipped and weak. Only the big rich nations can afford real modern hardware....youpeople are tterrible weak financially



Yet you cannot win from Pakistan... The moment foreign cash goes out you are crashing badly... Just look what happened a few months ago... USA cash went back (fear that FED would stop assistance) and look what happened to your rupieeeee... 

I do not mind being weaker or stupid but sometimes arrogance makes me puke.

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## Munir

Saudia has indeed billions and is sponsoring terrorism like no other. 911, Al Qaida, fundametalism or Osama... It is all Saudia. They earned trillions yet import like no other weapons and are they capable to fly or maintain them? Just look in their hangars.


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## MastanKhan

Superboy said:


> Indian air force has nothing besides Su-30, MiG-29, Mirage 2000, MiG-21, Jaguar, MiG-27.  Pakistan is 2nd biggest Muslim majority country after Indonesia, too important for America to ignore.
> 
> Pakistan air force's next fighter jet, J-10B, is far more advanced than Su-30MKI.




Hi,

J10B is nowhere close to the SU30 MKI.

Sir---your driver has to fly the J 10 B for about 10 years to claim getting anything close to a SU30 driver.

And not tesat flights----but actual deployment . Your pilots need that much time period to somewhat compete against the SU30's.

Remember---the su 30 has been actively flown for the last 10 plus years---full time. It takes years and years to learn your aircraft---.

You just cannot simply negate the flying capabilities of the su30 pilots and the capabilities of the su30 aircraft just because you want to say so----or the J10 did some thing that was staged.


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## Munir

Yes, these kind of personal opinions really provide us insight.

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## TaimiKhan

@Storm Force

If you continued with your Troll Storms derailing threads, you will be send on a long break.

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## Donatello

TaimiKhan said:


> @Storm Force
> 
> If you continued with your Troll Storms derailing threads, you will be send on a long break.




Taimi,

I am actually surprised how he managed to slip under Mods radar for so long.

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## nomi007



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## Luftwaffe

Folks the discussion is going somewhere else, you can discuss J-10 in J-10 Thread or come comparison Thread. But I would add somethings.

As for Typhoons and Rafales we don't have a great team to negotiate that is why in the past we have failed to secure and purchase the best Aircrafts, F-16 happened to be wonderful gift by US, be grateful due to afghan war we received them otherwise we would have been still flying something vintage.

A reminder while we were on the *** of M-2000 and Tornadoes in 1985-87 period where Mirage 2000 was barely 7 years old non in PAF pointed for PAF F-1 Mirages were also an excellent option that too were barely the better variant of F-1 were produced and handed over between 1977-83 that made them barely 7-9 Years old and much cheaper then Mirage 2000.

Opinion, If I had that sort of arabian money I would have thrown it in to purchase numbers of F-16 Block 60 Desert Falcons fairly a step ahead of Block 52 it would have pretty much closed the gap among Typhoons/Rafale and much better than across the border fulcrums-mirages, we in the end have no successful team to negotiate and or should have better military to military relations, political mess up can continue.

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## MastanKhan

Luftwaffe said:


> Folks the discussion is going somewhere else, you can discuss J-10 in J-10 Thread or come comparison Thread. But I would add somethings.
> 
> Luftwaffe,
> 
> PAF lacks strategic insight in the tactical purchase of aircraft---what that means is----" if we bought this aircraft and di not buy that aircraft---what kind of strategic issues would we have later down the road".
> 
> Basically----WHO IS THE DEVILS ADVOCATE for PAF.


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## Munir

Then why did they push for JF17 and even delinked the avionics etc? I think it is silly to assume that they just are simple minded soldiers. I know some people on other airforces and I thin kPAF is a lot more busy with their long term goals then most others.

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## raazh

Purchase of Fighter planes is a strictly Govt. to Govt. affair. Your options vary as your political/strategic relations with that country vary.

To expect that there is a xyz team of negotiating experts (whatever that means) who goes from country to country and evaluates planes based on abc factors is naïve. Every TOM, DICK and HARRY knows how to GOOGLE the BEST FIVE planes in the world. However every TOM, DICK AND HARRY cannot just go and buy that from Walmart no mater how much money you have in ur pockets.

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## nomi007



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## Chak Bamu

@nomi007 Please provide a link to original article, if possible. Thanks.


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## Basel

@nomi007: what missiles / weapons are displayed in both pics? to me they seems to be AMRAAMs.


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## Xracer

Immanuel said:


> Tall dreams were made and shattered, PAF will not get any more access to F-16s (new or old) US will not permit the sale, any of the eurocanards are out of reach quite simply because Pak cannot afford them. None of the Euro companies or Govt. are in any financial positions to give out alms.
> 
> Your best bet is J-10 which is a low quality bird just like Thunder. Furthermore dreams were made to think the future blocks of Blunders can actually match Unkil's Block52. Avionics wise, they will always stay inferior to anything made in Russia, US or Europe.



LOL look who is talking a Professionalist and a seniour think Tank
i know our economy is a lil weak but if terrorism,corruption,Suicide attacks,Fake antipakistani Politicians,India,natural disasters and Enemies of lslam cannot break Pakistan so far Then Nothing Can
Economies Get Better by the times Not a big deal in till 1999 nawaz and benazir bhutto fucccckkked Pakistan The debt were so high that the total interest of that debt was more than our GDP but When Musharraf come in power it was a piece of Cake for him so Never dought Capabilities of PAKISTAN
oooh in the End J-10 and JF 17's Are enough for us we know how good their Qualities is Cause we make them


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## nomi007

Chak Bamu said:


> @nomi007 Please provide a link to original article, if possible. Thanks.


sir i saw this picture at Arab news paper sorry no link available


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## Tempest II

Basel said:


> @nomi007: what missiles / weapons are displayed in both pics? to me they seems to be AMRAAMs.


 
Sidewinder. Probably AIM-9P version.

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## Basel

can any one please explain what kind of WVR weapons PAF F-16s carry and how effective they are in today's advance tech battle environment?


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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day*
Every one already knows the definition of a 'good' landing is one from which you can walk away. But very few know the definition of a 'great landing.' It's one after which you can use the airplane another time. -- Unknown

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## nomi007

aim-120c


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## ejaz007

Basel said:


> can any one please explain what kind of WVR weapons PAF F-16s carry and how effective they are in today's advance tech battle environment?



Pakistani F-16 can carry both AIM-9L and AIM-9P WVR missiles.

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## Basel

ejaz007 said:


> Pakistani F-16 can carry both AIM-9L and AIM-9P WVR missiles.



Thanks, but second part of my question is still unanswered.


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## Side-Winder

Basel said:


> Thanks, but second part of my question is still unanswered.



the ones we use aren't the most advanced versions of AIM series though,but quite effective still, something that can pull upto 40G's can do the job in today's advanced tech battle envoirnment.

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## Basel

@Side-Winder but are they good against the foe we have to face?? will they give enough chance to our pilots to stand against more advance and powerful adversary?


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## Side-Winder

Basel said:


> @Side-Winder but are they good against the foe we have to face?? will they give enough chance to our pilots to stand against more advance and powerful adversary?



AIM-9 L/M is only senond to Latest AIM-9X. So don't take it something outdated..it can very well compete with the IAF's R-73s..


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## Basel

Side-Winder said:


> AIM-9 L/M is only senond to Latest AIM-9X. So don't take it something outdated..it can very well compete with the IAF's R-73s..



But this is era of HMS and HMD with missile with LAF & LBF features and IAF is also using Israeli python missiles which are considered very lethal and effective, what u have say about them?


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## Side-Winder

Basel said:


> But this is era of HMS and HMD with missile with LAF & LBF features and IAF is also using Israeli python missiles which are considered very lethal and effective, what u have say about them?



yes although we are upgrading all of our F-16s to block 50 level,that will be compatible with JHMCS,but I don't think AIM-9M is 100% compatible with JHMCS to give 100% result,


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## Basel

@Side-Winder even if it is competible with JHMCS it will not have enough off bore capacity, also there were news that PAF were interested in German IRIS-T missile what happened to that? and why PAF is not looking at ASRAAM and other missiles for F-16s and JF-17s.


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## Side-Winder

Basel said:


> @Side-Winder even if it is competible with JHMCS it will not have enough off bore capacity, also there were news that PAF were interested in German IRST missile what happened to that? and why PAF is not looking at ASRAAM and other missiles for F-16s and JF-17s.



what other missiles for F-16s? Americans aren't gonna sell the X version to us, neither do we have enough funds to replace the M version,at the moment,
as far as the JF-17's weaponary is concerned, it also carries PL-E-II and PL-9C both of these can pull 40+ G's that is good enough, but again we haven't seen if JF-17 actually uses a HMS. during dubai airhshow 2010, the briefing given by the chief designer, HMS was shown as 'optional'.

Anyhow,as per news we are looking forward to A-DARTER to use in future with coming blocks of JF-17

im yet to know if PAF actually considered any german missile..?


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## Basel

@Side-Winder German IRIS-T was considered by PAF this was in news on PDF too, also UK's AIM-132 ASRAAM can be considered too it also has folding fins which allows it to be carried in internal bay of plane. They may be expensive but it is need of time to have such capable systems at least for our F-16s.

below link of German IRIS-T and related missiles:

IRIS-T - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The missile PAF F-16s use:

AIM-9 Sidewinder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Missiles IAF uses:

Python (missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you go through all related links given in first link page you will find out the difference is huge between these many missiles and there are many AIM-9M variants, which one is used by PAF?


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## ejaz007

Basel said:


> @Side-Winder but are they good against the foe we have to face?? will they give enough chance to our pilots to stand against more advance and powerful adversary?



These are capable missiles and are very good against the foe we shall face.


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## nomi007



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## nomi007

*F16 Construction*


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## Rashid Mahmood



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## Tacticool

can't we go for bubble canopy for jft? it looks cool.


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## MastanKhan

Rashid Mahmood said:


>




Hi,

Chinese do not have the capability as of now to make a true bubble canopy---I doubt if the russians have it.


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## Munir

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Chinese do not have the capability as of now to make a true bubble canopy---I doubt if the russians have it.



The reason is that it gives tremendous drag... WVR war is changing into netcentric BVR war. You do not even need canopy with all those sensors. If that bubble was that important then why has JSF no bubble? Or Ef2000? Or Rafale? Or Gripen? Or LCA  ?

Don't get me wrong but telling that Chinese have no capabilities sounds outright unbelievable.

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## SQ8

Munir said:


> Don't get me wrong but telling that Chinese have no capabilities sounds *outright unbelievable*.



And it is.. lack of information usually betrays such quasi-"_authoritative_" statements. There is no such thing as a true bubble canopy.. a bubble is the shape of the canopy of the F-15, the F-86.. and the frameless variant seen on the F-16 and also on the J-20.






And the issue is not drag.. its weight and strength. The F-16s bubble canopy is also heavier than what the F-15 uses because it has to be stronger(being one piece).

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## Munir

Oscar said:


> And it is.. lack of information usually betrays such quasi-"_authoritative_" statements. There is no such thing as a true bubble canopy.. a bubble is the shape of the canopy of the F-15, the F-86.. and the frameless variant seen on the F-16 and also on the J-20.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the issue is not drag.. its weight and strength. The F-16s bubble canopy is also heavier than what the F-15 uses because it has to be stronger(being one piece).



Exactly That is why the Japanese F2 (which is a copied and XL F16) has moved to two piece lighter version canopy.


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## MastanKhan

Munir said:


> The reason is that it gives tremendous drag... WVR war is changing into netcentric BVR war. You do not even need canopy with all those sensors. If that bubble was that important then why has JSF no bubble? Or Ef2000? Or Rafale? Or Gripen? Or LCA  ?
> 
> Don't get me wrong but telling that Chinese have no capabilities sounds outright unbelievable.




Sir,

Before commenting---please do your research on the matter. The chinese may not need it---but it does not mean that they have the tech.

It is true---true bubble canopies---like the F16's---are not needed with all the elctronic eyes that the systems carry nowadays.

But one piece bubble canopies still exist----with lesser curvature.


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## Munir

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Before commenting---please do your research on the matter. The chinese may not need it---but it does not mean that they have the tech.



Sir,

I guess you mean the J20 has no bubble canopy? Or do we both use different definitions of a bubble canopy? Then it is a matter of definitions but nothing else. So I think they need it and have it on J20.

>>>
Chengdu J-20 Multirole Stealth Fighter Aircraft - Airforce Technology
*Cockpit*
The J-20 will feature a glass cockpit enclosed with a bubble shaped canopy. The cockpit will be fitted with two liquid crystal displays (LCD) and a head up display (HUD). The aircraft can be operated through traditional hands on throttle and stick (HOTAS) system.

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## razgriz19

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Chinese do not have the capability as of now to make a true bubble canopy---I doubt if the russians have it.



is that "bubbly" enough for you?

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## MastanKhan

razgriz19 said:


> is that "bubbly" enough for you?




Hi,

No it is not----.

Bubble canopy was the need of a different time. The F16 bubble canopy---I don't think any nation has the capability to build one ecxept for the italians and the u s---.

One piece bubble canopy as seen on the F16 is not needed anymore---you don't need the visuals on the target or you don't need the actual eye to see the surroundings----your ELECTRONIC EYES are doing that for you.

If you can install fail safe video devices around the air craft---you don' need a glass canopy---you can have a steel cockpit----just like the next generation of u s submarines will have the actual visual of the surroundings displayed on the screens.

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## MastanKhan

razgriz19 said:


> is that "bubbly" enough for you?


Hi,

Let us put it this way----the technology used to build this 3 piece bubble technology is at par with like building a piston engine Cessna aircraft.

Now compare it to the one piece bubble canopy of the F 16---it is like building a 747.


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## razgriz19

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Let us put it this way----the technology used to build this 3 piece bubble technology is at par with like building a piston engine Cessna aircraft.
> 
> Now compare it to the one piece bubble canopy of the F 16---it is like building a 747.



if its all about a single piece canopy then here you go
J-20 has a single piece canopy.

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> No it is not----.
> 
> Bubble canopy was the need of a different time. The F16 bubble canopy---I don't think any nation has the capability to build one ecxept for the italians and the u s---.



Incorrect again. Any nation with a sustainable polycarbonate industry can manufacture a bubble canopy that meets or exceeds the mil-std used on the F-16. The J-20 canopy did not come out of thin air. GKN technologies in the UK offers F-22 canopies as well. 

The reason many aircraft do not use the frameless design is because they cannot have inconsistencies in thickness(traditional framed canopies are thicker in the front section to protect against bird strikes and thinner in the rear to save weight) to ensure canopy strength for bird strike. However this increases weight which is why F-16 and F-22 are one of the heaviest out there. Unlike other framed bubble canopies where in case of failure to jettison the canopy the seat can punch through the rear of the bubble, the F-16 canopy as a small charge that is used to shatter the canopy before ejection(previously rockets were used to seperate the canopy). And finally, frameless transparencies are difficult and expensive to manufacture. They require a high degree of accuracy in manufacturing process.

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## MastanKhan

Oscar said:


> Incorrect again. Any nation with a sustainable polycarbonate industry can manufacture a bubble canopy that meets or exceeds the mil-std used on the F-16. The J-20 canopy did not come out of thin air. GKN technologies in the UK offers F-22 canopies as well.
> 
> 
> And finally, frameless transparencies are difficult and expensive to manufacture. They require a high degree of accuracy in manufacturing process.



Hi,

Bubble canopies are being manufactured---but not with the similar similarities in SIZE to the F16's in question.

The F22 canopy is not the same as that of the F16's---. When one crosses a CERTAIN THRESHOLD OF DESIGN the job gets tougher by a multiplier effect which is NOT proprtionate to the difficulty in creating the original design but may exceed a thousand folds for the extra inch or those extra 5 degrees of curvature---and that is the case oin comparison with the F16's bubble canopy and the F22 bubble canopy.

The single piece F16 bubble canopy is a marvel of engineering design and technology.

When I say other nations cannot build the F16 canopy---it means that they cannot build a flawless functional unit---. As grows the curvature and the size of the canopy---so does the distortion in visibility through the glass---.

What it comes down to is---removing the distortions in visibility thru the glass---other than that---you can build it in that sense if you are not considering distortions---.


----------



## Indischer

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> No it is not----.
> 
> Bubble canopy was the need of a different time. The F16 bubble canopy---I don't think any nation has the capability to build one ecxept for the italians and the u s---.
> 
> One piece bubble canopy as seen on the F16 is not needed anymore---you don't need the visuals on the target or you don't need the actual eye to see the surroundings----your ELECTRONIC EYES are doing that for you.
> 
> *If you can install fail safe video devices around the air craft---you don' need a glass cockpit---you can have a steel cockpit*----just like the next generation of u s submarines will have the actual visual of the surroundings displayed on the screens.



Dafuq did I read?  

You do realize that 'Glass cockpit' refers to a cockpit where electronic/digital displays have replaced the analog displays and devices, right? What's a 'Steel Cockpit' anyway??


----------



## MastanKhan

Indischer said:


> Dafuq did I read?
> 
> You do realize that 'Glass cockpit' refers to a cockpit where electronic/digital displays have replaced the analog displays and devices, right? What's a 'Steel Cockpit' anyway??




Hi,

Yes I do---don't make a mountain of a mole hill---read it as glass canopy.



Oscar said:


> Incorrect again. Any nation with a sustainable polycarbonate industry can manufacture a bubble canopy that meets or exceeds the mil-std used on the F-16. The J-20 canopy did not come out of thin air. GKN technologies in the UK offers F-22 canopies as well.
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Can make and make are two different things----. India also thought that they could make a fighter jet engine---they also thought that they could make a tank engine as well and they had the blue prints and everything else needed----.


----------



## Indischer

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yes I do---don't make a mountain of a mole hill---read it as glass canopy.



You still haven't told me what a steel cockpit is...JK


----------



## MilSpec

Bubble glass canopies need female mold, uni-axial clear glass fiber/tranperent polycarbonate substrate, Vacuum assisted resin transfer molding system or pressurized transfer molding system, and curing oven. that's about it...It's not some wondrous achievement...Even P51 sort of had a bubble canopy....

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## MastanKhan

Indischer said:


> You still haven't told me what a steel cockpit is...JK[/q
> 
> 
> If the canopy was all steel----it was just an example----the outside sensors would display all the needed information on the screen---. So---what is the need of the bubble canopy---not much. Just for the pilot so that he may not get claustrophobic. Otherwise all the needed info is displayed on the screen---unless the plane gets shot up bad and screens don't display anything.
> 
> Next gen drone fighter interceptor aircraft.





sandy_3126 said:


> Bubble glass canopies need female mold, uni-axial clear glass fiber/tranperent polycarbonate substrate, Vacuum assisted resin transfer molding system or pressurized transfer molding system, and curing oven. that's about it...It's not some wondrous achievement...Even P51 sort of had a bubble canopy....



Hi,

A sort of a bubble canopy for a P51 and the F 16 bubble canopy are two different things.

Sandy---I am not a rude person---but allow me to say---'just because you can talk---does not mean that----you should' !!!!!!

Maybe---you should contact DRDO and find out what happened with the tank engine they were designing or the aircraft engine---. It was simple science wasn't it---you had all the blueprints and the the metals as welll---not counting all the phd's and an open checkbook----so what happened.

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## MilSpec

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> A sort of a bubble canopy for a P51 and the F 16 bubble canopy are two different things.
> 
> Sandy---I am not a rude person---but allow me to say---'just because you can talk---does not mean that----you should' !!!!!!
> 
> Maybe---you should contact DRDO and find out what happened with the tank engine they were designing or the aircraft engine---. It was simple science wasn't it---you had all the blueprints and the the metals as welll---not counting all the phd's and an open checkbook----so what happened.



As a matter of fact f16 bubble canopies and p51 canopies from manufacturing perspective albiet dimensional difference are not that different

I am not sure why such retort, All I pointed out was that bubble canopies are not some wondrous achievement, it is relatively simple to manufacture, and given access to clear glass fibers everywhere in todays world, I doubt there is anyone who cannot make one....As a matter of fact PAC kamra's Canopy division has all the tooling needed to make a bubble canopy if needed.

Engines on the other hand are different game all together. i am sure you know that better than anyone....


----------



## dbc

sandy_3126 said:


> As a matter of fact f16 bubble canopies and p51 canopies from manufacturing perspective albiet dimensional difference are not that different
> 
> I am not sure why such retort, All I pointed out was that bubble canopies are not some wondrous achievement, it is relatively simple to manufacture, and given access to clear glass fibers everywhere in todays world, I doubt there is anyone who cannot make one....As a matter of fact PAC kamra's Canopy division has all the tooling needed to make a bubble canopy if needed.
> 
> Engines on the other hand are different game all together. i am sure you know that better than anyone....



The challenge was to make a bubble canopy of uniform thickness for visibility and uniform impact resistance. A canopy that offered sufficient protection against bird strikes and with the ability to withstand impact even at low altitude supersonic flight. At low altitude supersonic flight parasitic drag causes heating of the surface of the canopy diminishing its impact resistance. The design goal was to use materials and forming process that provided the pilot sufficient protection in all likely scenarios. 

The principle issue was achieving uniform thickness since thermoplastic forming process results in non uniform thinning in the region that is more strained during the forming process. 

You are right anyone can make a bubble canopy even PAC Kamra but it may not be as easy to achieve the same results.


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## Basel

Just an hypothetical scenario:

If we had relations with US same as we had with China then we could have this XL design (pic below) which had 40% more load / range capacity, evolved with vista configuration giving it more smooth and stealthy shaping also with 5th gen plane avionics. It would have given us single engine fighter which could have handled all non stealth threat from our enemy.






General Dynamics F-16 VISTA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
.
General Dynamics F-16XL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

the above system would have created near to parity with IAF in terms of tech.

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## Munir

Khan sahib,

It is obvious the Chinese do deliver. Not in all fields (yet :engine) but I can assure you, they can easily deliver bubble canopies. If you start saying that one bubble canopy is not the other then you are now showing that you are a truly US citizen. A nation that talks about justice, freedom, democracy yet it is nothing then a bankrupt (we do not have to go in detail about Emron, credit crises, huge debt), lying (well everything they come up with to go to war as a "coalition" or Obama about closing Guantanomo) and stealing (NSA) nation.

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## nomi007

Two PAF Bravo's, #90952 and #92452, who were embargoed and stored at AMARC, now flying again [USAF photo]

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## Manticore

Basel said:


> Just an hypothetical scenario:
> 
> If we had relations with US same as we had with China then we could have this XL design (pic below) which had 40% more load / range capacity, evolved with vista configuration giving it more smooth and stealthy shaping also with 5th gen plane avionics. It would have given us single engine fighter which could have handled all non stealth threat from our enemy.
> 
> View attachment 12335
> 
> 
> General Dynamics F-16 VISTA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> .
> General Dynamics F-16XL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> the above system would have created near to parity with IAF in terms of tech.



DESIGN FOR AIR COMBAT
*True supercruiser concept*
Experience has shown that even when a combat encounter occurs at supersonic speed, the {59} reduction in specific excess power as a result of manoeuvring causes a rapid slowing to subsonic speed if the engagement is pursued. NASA research during the 1970s on wing planforms and sections for a second-generation supersonic transport appeared to show how to maintain both speed and manoeuvrability. It was to this end that in the late 1970s the USAF launched the Supersonic Cruise and Manoeuvring Programme (SCAMP). As part of this effort General Dynamics and NASA investigated over 150 different configurations in the course of 3,600hr of wind-tunnel testing before selecting the cranked-arrow (or compound-sweep delta) planform.







*Fig 46* General Dynamics F-16 design evolution.


Then, in mid-1980, the USAF defined a more immediate requirement for an improved ground attack aircraft to succeed the F-4 and F-111. General Dynamics shifted its sights to this goal and changed certain details of its cranked-arrow wing to meet the new requirement. The changes affected the camber, twist and trailing-edge reflex, optimising the wing for supersonic speed at low level. Remarkably, the new wing was not part of a completely new aircraft but was married to the existing F-16. As can be seen in Fig 46, the transformation was profound. The new 60m2 wing was mated to the basic F-16 structure by means of two fuselage plugs, one 0.91 m long and inserted ahead of the undercarriage, and a 0.67 m section aft. To provide for ground clearance on rotation the longer rear fuselage was angled up by 3° and the ventral fins deleted. The upsweep puts the thrust line below the CG, helping to improve rotation on takeoff. This, together with the very advanced wing, allowed the F-16XL (subsequently known as the F-16E) to be rotated at speeds down to 195km/hr, leading to a field-length requirement only two-thirds that of the F-16A. Flight testing of the F-16E showed it to have a lift/drag ratio between 10 and 45% better than that of the basic F-16A, and it could roll and pitch faster in any configuration. It could also pull an AFCS-limited 9g over twice the Mach-number range. While the F-16E offers no L/D improvement in subsonic manoeuvres, it does retain the subsonic cruise efficiency of the F-16 planform. Where it scores is in supersonic cruise performance: at Mach 2.2 its L/D is over 9. This is due to the improved fineness ratio arising from the

{60} 





The General Dynamics F-16E's cranked-arrow wing was developed over 3,600hr of wind tunnel testing in the late 1970s. The high degree of sweep on the inboard leading edge means that flaps were fitted only outboard of the kink. The absence of a forward cockpit canopy frame is unique to the F-16 (General Dynamics)


increased fuselage length and even better wing/body blending. Even though the wing area is more than double that of the standard F-16, the skin friction drag is only 22% more, due partly to the deletion of the horizontal tail.

_The cranked-arrow planform of the F-16E_ comprises a sharply swept (70°) leading-edge inboard section lying within the shock cone of the nose and, at 63% semi-span, a 50° outboard section of thin profile and sharp leading edge. This is designed to obtain the low wave drag associated with highly swept or thin wings without the aerodynamic penalties of sweep or structural problems of thin sections. However, the F-16E takes the delta planform {61} much further in that the experience gained with the leading-edge strakes of the basin F-16 enabled General Dynamics to maximise the vortex-lift benefit. The two swept panels of the cranked-arrow planform produce vortex systems which mutually interfere. At low angles of attack the leading-edge vortex from the inboard wing passes over the root chord of the outboard wing panel. In addition, vortex lift is available at the tip as a result of the action of the outboard leading-edge vortex. At high AOA the single primary vortex system acts over the whole of the outer panel. Thus augmented vortex lift occurs at supersonic speed, while at lower speeds the benefits of the primary vortex counter the high induced drag which plagued earlier delta planforms.






*Fig 47* F-16E flying qualities compared with those of the F-16A. Lateral/directional stability is improved; external loads do not adversely affect flying qualities: there are no limitations due to buffet, wing rock, nose slice, deep-stall trim points, or spin tendency; there are no limits on angle of attack, minimum speed and bank angle; and the full range of manoeuvres can be performed while carrying the maximum load of air-to-ground stores.13


The improvements in stability and control with and without stores were such that no limitations due to buffet, wing rock or nose slice, nor spin tendency were encountered during the flight test programme. Angle-of-attack excursions resulted when the airspeed dropped to zero but the aircraft always recovered without any pilot input. 360° rolls at maximum g/maximum AOA similarly failed to cause any departure from controlled flight (Fig 47).

The major difference between the application of vortex flow to transonic fighters (e.g. F-16, F-18) and to the supercruise fighter (e.g. F-16E) is the extent of vortex lift available. The supercruise fighter, having more of the wing highly swept, develops more of this lift. Only a small fraction of the increased lift comes from the potential (or attached-flow) lift; the rest is due to the vortex lift acting over the increased wing area. This extra lift increases instantaneous turn rate, now regarded as more important than sustained turn rate, which largely governed the original F-16 design. Newer gunsights and missiles like the AIM-9L Sidewinder reduce the need to hold the target in the sight for weapon aiming. General Dynamics relinquished a small amount of sustained manoeuvrability in order to double the 9g envelope and move it into the high supersonic regime.

It should not however be forgotten that the F-16E was initially developed for ground attack. In this respect the new wing increased internal fuel capacity by 82%, which eliminated for most missions the weight and drag of external tanks. This gave it a 45% increase in combat radius with twice the weapon load of the F-16A and a more than 120% increase with the same weapon load. The aircraft is equipped with 17 store stations with 29 hard-points. In the event the F-15E, a development of the two-seat F-15C was chosen as the dual-role fighter for the USAF, though it remains possible that development of the F-16E will continue.

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## Manticore

Were PAF options on the ECM gear without DRFM:

ALQ-211 AIDEW , AN/ALQ-184 , AN/ALQ-131, or AN/ALQ-187 , AN/ALQ-178 ?
Any specs comparison among these five?


> Polish f16s have ITT Industries AN/ALQ-211 derived AN/ALQ-173(V) {also called ALQ-211 (V) 4} Advanced Integrated Defense Electronics Warfare System (AIDEWS).


Electronic Warfare. | Pakistan Defence


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## Bratva

Manticore said:


> Were PAF options on the ECM gear without DRFM:
> 
> ALQ-211 AIDEW , AN/ALQ-184 , AN/ALQ-131, or AN/ALQ-187 , AN/ALQ-178 ?
> Any specs comparison among these five?
> Electronic Warfare. | Pakistan Defence



Yes, Congress specifically blocked the DRFM transfer to PAF


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## SQ8

mafiya said:


> Yes, Congress specifically blocked the DRFM transfer to PAF


Apparently it was allowed back in. There was a news item or interview that stated the DRFM being allowed in.

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## Bratva

Oscar said:


> Apparently it was allowed back in. There was a news item or interview that stated the DRFM being allowed in.




Then it must be of degraded form. Limited operating spectrum.

In 2006, there was a great furor in senate and congress by Democrates (India lobbying hard), an audio clip of such one public senate hearing disclosed secretary of state assuring them sensitive DFRM would not be transferd

*Country Date Transmission No.*
Pakistan .. 6/28/2006 .. 06-09

*DESCRIPTION:*
36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft with either the F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs) and APG-68(V)9 radars; 7 spare F100-PW-229 IPE or F110-GE-129 IPE engines; 7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets; 36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems; 36 
AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II; 36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs); 36 
Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; 36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems; 36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems; 36 *Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or Pakistan AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM and 1 Unit Level Trainer; *

Pakistan 6/28/2006 06-10

*DESCRIPTION*
60 F-16A/B Mid-Life Update (MLU) modification and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of: APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or APG-66(V)2 radar; Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems; AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems; AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems; Have Quick I/II Radios; Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability; Reconnaissance pod capability; Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units; M*DE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM; 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems; 1 Unit Level Trainer; and 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets*. Also included are radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support.

Foreign Military Sales $1.3 billion

Pakistan 6/28/2006 06-11

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## Dazzler

mafiya said:


> Then it must be of degraded form. Limited operating spectrum.
> 
> In 2006, there was a great furor in senate and congress by Democrates (India lobbying hard), an audio clip of such one public senate hearing disclosed secretary of state assuring them sensitive DFRM would not be transferd




initially blocked, later supplied with functional DFRM module as per export specifications due to a request by PAF.

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## Bratva

Dazzler said:


> initially blocked, later supplied with functional DFRM module as per export specifications due to a request by PAF.



It's hard to believe, they supplied it despite congress ban. No congress furor on flaunting it's authority is bemusing

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## Donatello

mafiya said:


> It's hard to believe, they supplied it despite congress ban. No congress furor on flaunting it's authority is bemusing


I think this is the same case which makes us wonder if PAF should spend a single penny on any more US equipment. I mean, like WTF.

Better to invest in JF-17 and J-10. At least you have a peace of mind that you can make it as lethal as you want it.

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## Dazzler

mafiya said:


> It's hard to believe, they supplied it despite congress ban. No congress furor on flaunting it's authority is bemusing



And it makes no sense to go for 211 series without DRFM in the first place, without it, its as good as ALQ-131 with few software tweaks here and there. Also, i shared a source which confirmed that KG-300G ew pod has DRFM so its not a new thing for PAF.



Donatello said:


> I think this is the same case which makes us wonder if PAF should spend a single penny on any more US equipment. I mean, like WTF.
> 
> Better to invest in JF-17 and J-10. At least you have a peace of mind that you can make it as lethal as you want it.



i second your thoughts


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## HAIDER



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## jupiter2007

What about the 30 Italian F-16s out of lease return to USA?


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## fatman17

*Aviation Industry News*
*Production of the F-16 will likely continue through 2020*
December 17, 2013 (by Lieven Dewitte) - *Lockheed Martin has enough orders to keep its F-16 fighter jet production line humming through the third quarter of 2017. They are also pursuing additional orders and upgrades in the Middle East, South America and other markets that would keep the line running through 2020.*



 





An unpainted F-16C leaves the production line at Lockheed's Fort Worth facilities. [Photo by Kenny Roberts] 
Around that time, the cost of Lockheed's new F-35 stealth fighter will have dropped so far that it will make more sense for potential customers to procure F-35s rather than F-16s. Last Friday Lockheed Martin marked completion of its 100th F-35 fighter. 

Lockheed has produced over 4,500 F-16s since the program began in 1975, making the F-16 the best-selling fighter jet in history. The jets are flown by 26 countries, including 15 that have placed follow-on orders, Bill McHenry, Lockheed's head of F-16 business development, said in in an interview with Reuters.

The United Arab Emirates is weighing new F-16 orders and possible upgrades, but failed to announce an order at the Dubai air show as some experts had expected. 

Lockheed has dramatically scaled back production of the F-16 at its facility in Fort Worth, Texas, to about one plane a month now - from a peak production rate of 30 planes a month in June 1987, said spokesman Mark Johnson. At the moment, the company is completing work on the last one of 20 F-16s it built for Egypt. That jet and seven others are being stored at the Fort Worth plant after the United States announced it would withhold most military aid due to concerns about democracy and human rights. 

It is also working on 12 F-16s for Oman, several of which are in varying states of completion at the slimmed-down F-16 production line in Building 8, also known as the "Falcon's Nest," plus a total of 36 jets ordered by Iraq. One of the 145 jets being upgraded for Taiwan is also in the factory, its nose cone already open for insertion of the new Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar. McHenry said Lockheed saw additional opportunities to upgrade existing F-16s to the new F-16V configuration, which includes the AESA radar, embedded global positioning, updated electronic warfare equipment and avionics systems. 

He acknowledged that other companies, including Britain's BAE Systems, were trying to capture some of that upgrade work, but said Lockheed offered lower costs and greater economies of scale given the breadth of its existing work with the 26 countries that already operate the jet. The Pentagon last month approved a deal under which BAE will upgrade 134 older F-16 fighter jets for South Korea, a move that could pressure Lockheed to compete more aggressively in the hunt for upgrade deals.

*Related articles:*

Last Block 50+ F-16 delivered by TAI as part of Peace Onyx IV Program (2012-12-12)
Lockheed Martin delivers 4,500th F-16 (2012-04-03)
First production F-35 takes to the skies (2011-02-25)
U.S. Air Force receives last F-16 (2005-03-25)
Lockheed Martin Delivers 4,000th F-16 to Egypt (2000-04-28)
Other Aviation Industry News
News archive for December 2013

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## Arsalan

any updates regarding the current MLU status? how many planes have we got. I hope the project have not stopped altogether after the government change.


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## nomi007



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## razgriz19

Arsalan said:


> any updates regarding the current MLU status? how many planes have we got. I hope the project have not stopped altogether after the government change.


 
During the Turkish airshow, when a PAF f-16 was performing, the comentator mentioned that half of the fleet has been upgraded, and that exact f-16 just went through the MLU.
The video is on youtube and other video hosting sites.


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## Munir

razgriz19 said:


> During the Turkish airshow, when a PAF f-16 was performing, the comentator mentioned that half of the fleet has been upgraded, and that exact f-16 just went through the MLU.
> The video is on youtube and other video hosting sites.



During that event I met the pilot that was going to evaluate the first three planes that were upgraded. I do not think we had that number of f16's ready.

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## nomi007

razgriz19 said:


> During the Turkish airshow, when a PAF f-16 was performing, the comentator mentioned that half of the fleet has been upgraded, and that exact f-16 just went through the MLU.
> The video is on youtube and other video hosting sites.


share link


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## razgriz19

nomi007 said:


> share link



i watched the video on some turkish tv channel online, i can't find the link. That video had commentary by the same guy from Dubai air show. He mentioned that half of the fleet has been upgraded and this exact F-16 didn't have to travel far as it was the latest to went through the process.
I'm trying to find videos on YouTube and other sites with commentary, but no luck so far.

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## Thorough Pro

No he did not. He did mention that they didn't have tocome all the way from Pakistan, as they were already there for upgrades.



razgriz19 said:


> i watched the video on some turkish tv channel online, i can't find the link. That video had commentary by the same guy from Dubai air show. *He mentioned that half of the fleet has been upgraded *and this exact F-16 didn't have to travel far as it was the latest to went through the process.
> I'm trying to find videos on YouTube and other sites with commentary, but no luck so far.


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## razgriz19

Thorough Pro said:


> No he did not. He did mention that they didn't have tocome all the way from Pakistan, as they were already there for upgrades.



The guy who said that is a different guy. you're talking about this guy at 1:03:55
I'm talking about the guy at 1:05:01. He's the commentator, he mentioned that. Unfortunately his full commentary is not in this video.


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## Munir

I have heard so much wrong info from commentators... Specially on an air show. We know what the first batch was. And that was not half of the fleet.


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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day*
You've got to land here son, this is where the food is. -- Unknown landing signal officer to carrier pilot after his 6th unsuccessful landing.

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## Side-Winder

Tallat hussain flying the F-16





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10151999565027663

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## nomi007

GBU-10 & Sniper on PAF F-16C Block52+

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## nomi007

Pakistan Airforce F-16B Block-15 jets formation belong to griffins squadrons

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## fatman17

Quote of the Day
He who sees first, lives longest. -- Unknown

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Quote of the Day
> He who sees first, lives longest. -- Unknown


Sir Fatman17.
Anymore news on further acquisitions of anymore F16s or is all quiet on the western front. I suspect it maybe the latter and the top brass is saving the paisas for either more input into JFT or relying on the begging bowl for more oldies for MLU. Input would be appreciated.
Araz


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## fatman17

araz said:


> Sir Fatman17.
> Anymore news on further acquisitions of anymore F16s or is all quiet on the western front. I suspect it maybe the latter and the top brass is saving the paisas for either more input into JFT or relying on the begging bowl for more oldies for MLU. Input would be appreciated.
> Araz


 
the US pipeline is delayed due to OBL, Dr.Afridi, GLOC episodes. the monies are being held in abayence until things get normal. the US owes us 14 F-16's approved by Bush Admn.

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> the US pipeline is delayed due to OBL, Dr.Afridi, GLOC episodes. the monies are being held in abayence until things get normal. the US owes us 14 F-16's approved by Bush Admn.


Just posted by a member of pakdef.info arsalanus that PAF has bought 13 MLUed F16s from Jordan with 3k hours on them. Confirmation required. This has apparently been approved by uncle Sam. If you link it with the news about AMRAAMS and AIM9X sourced via Jordan it suddenly starts making sense. I have long said this is the way to go especially in times of resource constraints.

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## AsianLion

@araz
this news of getting F16s from Jordan is true, I just read the great news now: here

PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan - thenews.com.pk

Another link:

Pakistan Air Force Purchases 13 F-16 Fighter Jets From Jordan | Pakistan Military Review


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## nomi007



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## nomi007

PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan - thenews.com.pk


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## nomi007



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## fatman17

hope it works


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## fatman17

*F-16 Fighting Falcon News*
*Pakistan acquiring F-16s from Jordan*
February 19, 2014 (by Asif Shamim) - *Pakistani press is reporting that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has acquired one squadron of F-16 multi-role fighter aircraft from Jordan with 13 being inducted into the service next month. *



 





PAF F-16A #85726 and F-16B #84608 over the Choolistan desert, armed with AIM-9 Sidewinders - the PAF's main air-to-air weapons [PAF photo] 
With the addition of these new airframes (12 A models and one B model aircraft) the PAF will reach 76 F-16s in service. Lockheed Martin and the US government has also given its nod for the sale/purchase of the planes.

Sources available to the 'The News' who published this story indicated the aircraft were in good condition since all had been updated to the Mid-Life Update (MLU) and they would be provide service for another 20 years with almost 3,000 hours on average available to them for flying. However sources declined to indicate how much this deal was worth and said more would be disclosed next month at the time the new jets were inducted into service.

However, it is understood that the used planes are cost-effective and could provide service for a fairly longer period of time. Pakistan is also contemplating to acquire more used planes for the PAF from some other countries while the induction of JF-17 Thunder aircraft, co-production of Pakistan and China, e is also underway simultaneously, the sources said.

Chief of the Air Staff (CAS), Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafiq Butt, visited Jordan last year pursuing the sale of the aircraft. He and officials from Jordan had discussions about the sale/purchase and delivery deal.

*Related articles:*

First Belgian F-16s to be delivered to Jordan (2008-09-05)
Turkey to upgrade Pakistani F-16s (2008-08-08)
US to deliver 10 refurbished F-16s to Pakistan (2008-06-04)
F-16 Fighting Falcon news archive

*Forum discussion:*

Start a discussion about this article in the F-16.net forum.


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## xxxKULxxx

Sorry if this news is posted already. Pakistan buys 13 F-16s from Jordan... 12 of them single seated 1 of them 2 seated... Source of the news is Turkish website kokpit.aero

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## nomi007

*I M COMING *





now i think paf try to get also kc-135 from usa for 76 indus vipers

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## trident2010

how much PAF paid for thnes?ese pla


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## Jango

A little question that popped in my mind.

What sort of precautions does the PAF take regarding decontamination of and F-16 from Hydrazine in case of power failure and activation of EPU?

Is it similar to US safety levels, with the 2 three man teams, first the fire fighters and then NBC personnel taking out the Hydrazine? 

Is there a team dedicated to each squadron?

@Oscar, @Dazzler...?


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## Dazzler

nuclearpak said:


> A little question that popped in my mind.
> 
> What sort of precautions does the PAF take regarding decontamination of and F-16 from Hydrazine in case of power failure and activation of EPU?
> 
> Is it similar to US safety levels, with the 2 three man teams, first the fire fighters and then NBC personnel taking out the Hydrazine?
> 
> Is there a team dedicated to each squadron?
> 
> @Oscar, @Dazzler...?




the US approach..


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## SQ8

nuclearpak said:


> A little question that popped in my mind.
> 
> What sort of precautions does the PAF take regarding decontamination of and F-16 from Hydrazine in case of power failure and activation of EPU?
> 
> Is it similar to US safety levels, with the 2 three man teams, first the fire fighters and then NBC personnel taking out the Hydrazine?
> 
> Is there a team dedicated to each squadron?
> 
> @Oscar, @Dazzler...?



The initial American team that came with the original peace gate I deal gave through training to our personnel on all such emergencies. They helped design shelters, procedures.. and we even got the newest G-suits(back then) with them.

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## Jango

Dazzler said:


> the US approach..



Any picture or something?


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## fatman17

nuclearpak said:


> Any picture or something?


 
bhai maan jao...!


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## fatman17

Image Credit: Wikimedia Commons
*Pakistan Purchases F-16s From Jordan*
Pakistan and Jordan concluded a deal that will transfer 13 F-16 aircraft from Jordan to Pakistan.




By Ankit Panda for The Diplomat
February 22, 2014

According to Pakistani sources, Pakistan’s Air Force has purchased one squadron of F-16 multi-role fighter aircraft from Jordan. The 13 F-16s were in service in the Royal Jordanian Air Force and will be inducted into the Pakistani air force next month. The deal has been finalized, approved by both countries, as well as the United States. The 13 aircraft are the same F-16 A/B Block-15 variant that Pakistan’s Air Force already operates.

The purchase brings the Pakistan Air Force’s total F-16 count to 76. According to _Defense Industry Daily__, _the Royal Jordanian Air Force’s F-16 MLUs (Mid-Life Update) were bought from Belgium and the Netherlands.

The set sold to Pakistan is from a separate set of F-16s in use by the Jordanian Air Force. “This set being sold is from the 33-plane Peace Falcon I/II purchases of F-16 ADFs in 1997 and 2003,” according to _Defense Industry Daily_. The ADF variant–ADF standing for Air Defense Fighter–is more suited for dogfighting, air superiority, and interception.

Pakistan’s _The News International _cites “well-placed defense sources” as confirming that the purchased aircraft were in good condition and could serve for up to another 20 years, with about 3,000 flying hours available to them. The deal was set up between Pakistan and Jordan a year ago when Pakistan’s Chief of the Air Staff (CAS) Tahir Rafiq Butt visited Jordan to pursue the deal. The total amount Pakistan paid for the aircraft is not known at this point, but _Defense Industry Daily _speculates that Jordan likely made a profit on the sale of the aircraft.

The Jordanian F-16 purchase is the latest step in the Pakistani Air Force’s ongoing efforts to bulk up its fleet. Another example of this is Pakistan and China’s joint development of the JF-17 Thunder aircraft, which is also being incorporated into the Pakistan Air Force.

Overall, the F-16 is one of the most important components of the Pakistan Air Force, originally introduced to the air force in the 1980s, during the Cold War. The United States provided Pakistan with an initial batch of F-16s before nuclear sanctions came into force as a result of the Pressler amendment. In the 1990s, a series of F-16 aircraft were embargoed despite Pakistan having paid for them. Currently, the U.S. and Pakistan are discussing additional upgrades and weapons purchases for Pakistan’s existing F-16 fleet. The Pakistani government has shown interest in advanced medium range air-to-air missiles, short range air-to-air missiles, joint direct attack munition, and bunker-buster bombs.


*Pakistan Air Force Purchases 13 F-16 Fighter Jets From Jordan*

Home  Jordan News 

*Pakistan Air Force Purchases 13 F-16 Fighter Jets From Jordan*

[2/20/2014 4:41:34 PM]
*

AMMONNEWS- The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has acquired one squadron of F-16 multi-role fighter aircraft from Jordan and 13 F-16s will be inducted into the service next month, Pakistani media reported on Wednesday. 

The fighter aircraft have been purchased from Jordan and they were in the use of the Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF). 

The deal has already been finalized and inked by both the countries. The 13 aircraft are of F-16 A/B Block-15 and the PAF has similar aircraft in its fleet which are flying satisfactorily. 

The deal about 12 A models and one B model aircraft has been authenticated by the manufacturing company and the US government has also given its nod for the sale/purchase of the planes. 

The purchased aircraft were in good condition since they had attained Mid-Life Update (MLU) and they would be providing service for another 20 years with almost 3,000 hours on average available to them for flying.*
Jordanian source...

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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## Jango

fatman17 said:


> bhai maan jao...!



Sir ji man gaye hain...it's only that a picture would be good to see.

I am not saying that the esteemed member is lying!

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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## nomi007

when will Jordanian f-16s come any idea


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## Dazzler

nomi007 said:


> when will Jordanian f-16s come any idea


 
probably by march- april

in the mean time, more AIDEWS 211s are coming...




> *Exelis to supply Pakistan with more components for electronic warfare systems for F-16s*
> 
> *CLIFTON, N.J., Feb. 25, 2014 *– Exelis (NYSE: XLS) has received $9 million from the U.S. Air Force to supply spare components for electronic warfare (EW) technology provided to Pakistan under an existing contract.
> 
> The original contract, awarded in December 2011, granted Exelis $53 million to supply Pakistan with ALQ-211 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) systems to protect the country’s F-16 fighter aircraft from radio frequency threats. The additional funds provide for the manufacture and delivery of a range of spare AIDEWS components, following successful development and integration flight-testing phases.
> 
> “The AIDEWS pod offers dependable protection against a range of dynamic electronic threats,” said Joe Rambala, vice president and general manager of the Exelis integrated electronic warfare systems business area. “Working with U.S. and allied customers to stay ahead of emerging threats has helped make Exelis a global electronic warfare leader, and we remain committed to advancing this critical mission.”
> 
> The AIDEWS components will be produced at the Exelis Electronic Systems (ES) facility in Clifton, N.J., with deliveries expected to be complete in 2016. ES is the lead division for the company’s electronic warfare strategic growth platform and provides advanced, integrated EW solutions to protect and enable customers to perform their critical missions.
> 
> *About Exelis *
> 
> Exelis is a diversified, top-tier global aerospace, defense, information and services company that leverages a 50-year legacy of deep customer knowledge and technical expertise to deliver affordable, mission-critical solutions for global customers. We are a leader in timing and navigation, sensors, air traffic solutions, image processing and distribution, communications and information systems, logistics and technical services; and we are focused on strategic growth in the areas of critical networks, ISR and analytics, electronic warfare and composite aerostructures. Headquartered in McLean, Va., Exelis employs about 19,000 people and generated 2012 sales of $5.5 billion.



http://www.exelisinc...e-systems-.aspx

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## Nishan_101

fatman17 said:


> *F-16 Fighting Falcon News*
> *Pakistan acquiring F-16s from Jordan*
> February 19, 2014 (by Asif Shamim) - *Pakistani press is reporting that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has acquired one squadron of F-16 multi-role fighter aircraft from Jordan with 13 being inducted into the service next month. *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF F-16A #85726 and F-16B #84608 over the Choolistan desert, armed with AIM-9 Sidewinders - the PAF's main air-to-air weapons [PAF photo]
> With the addition of these new airframes (12 A models and one B model aircraft) the PAF will reach 76 F-16s in service. Lockheed Martin and the US government has also given its nod for the sale/purchase of the planes.
> 
> Sources available to the 'The News' who published this story indicated the aircraft were in good condition since all had been updated to the Mid-Life Update (MLU) and they would be provide service for another 20 years with almost 3,000 hours on average available to them for flying. However sources declined to indicate how much this deal was worth and said more would be disclosed next month at the time the new jets were inducted into service.
> 
> However, it is understood that the used planes are cost-effective and could provide service for a fairly longer period of time. Pakistan is also contemplating to acquire more used planes for the PAF from some other countries while the induction of JF-17 Thunder aircraft, co-production of Pakistan and China, e is also underway simultaneously, the sources said.
> 
> Chief of the Air Staff (CAS), Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafiq Butt, visited Jordan last year pursuing the sale of the aircraft. He and officials from Jordan had discussions about the sale/purchase and delivery deal.
> 
> *Related articles:*
> 
> First Belgian F-16s to be delivered to Jordan (2008-09-05)
> Turkey to upgrade Pakistani F-16s (2008-08-08)
> US to deliver 10 refurbished F-16s to Pakistan (2008-06-04)
> F-16 Fighting Falcon news archive
> 
> *Forum discussion:*
> 
> Start a discussion about this article in the F-16.net forum.



But Jordan had 16 of them?



fatman17 said:


> the US pipeline is delayed due to OBL, Dr.Afridi, GLOC episodes. the monies are being held in abayence until things get normal. the US owes us 14 F-16's approved by Bush Admn.



Yes when will PAF getting remaining 14 F-16s from US? and tell me from whom PAF is looking to buy more F-16s, is it Egypt's 60 F-16s Block-15?

Also how many Muslim nations operating Block-15s???


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## Donatello

Dazzler said:


> probably by march- april
> 
> in the mean time, more AIDEWS 211s are coming...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.exelisinc...e-systems-.aspx



When are we getting AIM9X??


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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> When are we getting AIM9X??


I dont think we'll be getting those. the F-16s may be coming.. but the 9X is too much of a changer to be put into our hands.

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## Bilal.

Oscar said:


> I dont think we'll be getting those. the F-16s may be coming.. but the 9X is too much of a changer to be put into our hands.



Even when they could give us amraam-c5s?


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## flameboard

I don't think so. Considering Pakistan has never done anything like that on its own. Also I hope Pakistan doesn't make F-16 it's backbone. The US would have too much handle over Pakistan. Maybe Pakistan should consider Gripen for that or if it has money later on Rafale or Eurofighter. Those countries tend to be more about money than trying to force Pakistan into doing something by holding back parts or something like that.


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## trident2010

F-16s will be frontline fighter but the backbone will be JF-17s.


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## nomi007




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## ejaz007

ZamsaHassan said:


> Gripen/ Euro fighter / french rafale are to much expensive for that .India can do this easily because money is not problem for india....any how . But Pakistan have no others options. and PAF used f-16s and able to used it 100% according to F-16s standards..... F-16s used many countries around the world .but just few Air forces on top Israel, Pakistan, Denmark, are the top and they have out class fighter pilots of F-16s




Why money is not a problem for India? Care to explain.

Does money grow on trees in India?

They have over a billion people to take care of so money is an even bigger problem for them and their current economic situation is not as bright as most seem to believe.

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## Dr. Strangelove

ZamsaHassan said:


> yes You have to read out the economy of India Rich government in southeast Asia.Pakistan is not capable to compute with India's economy. Look at its GDP then every one understand the money come from trees or what I sure its dis heart for you but its true.
> 
> who cares for the peoples? we ? Wish to all please care the nation /people



do u know their budget deficit ?

its 110 billion dollers

external debt 299 billion 
public debt 67% of the gdp 
inflation 8.7 %


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## krash

Have we seen this before?





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=499180020194187

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## nomi007



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## nomi007

ex-rjaf

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## nomi007



Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
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## nomi007

rjaf

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## nomi007

may be not posted before

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## nomi007

F-16 dropping Laser Guided Bombs during Op Raah-e-raast

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## razgriz19

Munir said:


> I have heard so much wrong info from commentators... Specially on an air show. We know what the first batch was. And that was not half of the fleet.



Okay i couldn't find the video, but here is a paragraph from Allan Warnes interview of PAF chief Rafiqui.
It was released on 28 October 2013. I am not subscribed to AFD so i can't post the link, but you can google it.

"PAF modernisation is not all about JF-17s though. The PAF is currently taking delivery of 41 F-16 Mid Life Upgrade (MLU) jets under Peace Drive II, which also includes several aircraft going through Falcon Up. The first deliveries took place in February 2012 after spending around 18 months at Turkish Aerospace Industries. The modernization is expected to be completed next year. The F-16MLUs will provide Pakistans F-16 with a 24 hour day/night capability which is badly needed. *Half of them have now been delivered back to the PAF*. The newly upgraded F-16 MLU jets are being operated from Shahbaz Air Base and arrangements are being made for their re-basing to other locations. Other than engine and Conformal Fuel Tanks, the F-16 MLU and F-16C/D Blk-52+ are similar. Both versions have excellent night attack capabilities."

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## ejaz007

*F-16 Fighting Falcon News*
*Pakistan acquiring F-16s from Jordan*

February 19, 2014 (by Asif Shamim) - *Pakistani press is reporting that the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has acquired one squadron of F-16 multi-role fighter aircraft from Jordan with 13 being inducted into the service next month.*

With the addition of these new airframes (12 A models and one B model aircraft) the PAF will reach 76 F-16s in service. Lockheed Martin and the US government has also given its nod for the sale/purchase of the planes.

Sources available to the 'The News' who published this story indicated the aircraft were in good condition since all had been updated to the Mid-Life Update (MLU) and they would be provide service for another 20 years with almost 3,000 hours on average available to them for flying. However sources declined to indicate how much this deal was worth and said more would be disclosed next month at the time the new jets were inducted into service.

However, it is understood that the used planes are cost-effective and could provide service for a fairly longer period of time. Pakistan is also contemplating to acquire more used planes for the PAF from some other countries while the induction of JF-17 Thunder aircraft, co-production of Pakistan and China, e is also underway simultaneously, the sources said.

Chief of the Air Staff (CAS), Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafiq Butt, visited Jordan last year pursuing the sale of the aircraft. He and officials from Jordan had discussions about the sale/purchase and delivery deal.
*
Pakistan acquiring F-16s from Jordan*

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## nomi007

nomi007 said:


> may be not posted before












__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152249857141421

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## SQ8

GURU DUTT said:


> well you may be right sir im not saying F16s is not a better plane but in this age now when russians have mastered the AESA , Gan based EW & counter maesures suites and wepons pakage Mig 29 is not that far behind + add to that more range on internal feul , lighter yet more robut airfarame and twin engines indias latest ugraded Mig 29's is more than a match for PAFs falcons


And you are doing the exact PAf vs IAf bullshit you said you wont. Banned from thread.



nomi007 said:


> View attachment 21339
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152249857141421



Did not know F-16s could do a handbrake turn like cars.. and needed to carry bombs to kill a simple drone.

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## khanasifm

List of 13 F16s ADF (Most of them)

Current active F-16 airframes assigned to RJAF 2 sqn

14th one, a 2 seater crashed in Jan 2014, the list still shows it active

F-16 Units - RJAF 2nd squadron

Original life 4000 hours, ANG flew them for ~3000 hours then stored, it got OCUed and ADFed (not Full MLU) adding another 4000 hours (total 5000 hours) plus engine upgrade to 220/E before RJAF got them, currently they have ~3000 hours or 20 years left

Compared to rest of PAF fleet it will fly with APG66A radar and not APG69(9) they can carry 600 Gallon tank for more air time in Air defense role (PAF F16s Carry 370 Gallon only except Blk 52). Paint scheme looks dirty and may be repainted


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## nomi007

khanasifm said:


> List of 13 F16s ADF (Most of them)
> 
> Current active F-16 airframes assigned to RJAF 2 sqn
> 
> 14th one, a 2 seater crashed in Jan 2014, the list still shows it active
> 
> F-16 Units - RJAF 2nd squadron
> 
> Original life 4000 hours, ANG flew them for ~3000 hours then stored, it got OCUed and ADFed (not Full MLU) adding another 4000 hours (total 5000 hours) plus engine upgrade to 220/E before RJAF got them, currently they have ~3000 hours or 20 years left
> 
> Compared to rest of PAF fleet it will fly with APG66A radar and not APG69(9) they can carry 600 Gallon tank for more air time in Air defense role (PAF F16s Carry 370 Gallon only except Blk 52). Paint scheme looks dirty and may be repainted


abi ahe nai aur negative posting starts ALLAH KAHAIR


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## Irfan Baloch

nomi007 said:


> abi ahe nai aur negative posting starts ALLAH KAHAIR


Nomi I was expecting a picture in your post
why dint you post one? now you are slacking and I am sad


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## nomi007

Irfan Baloch said:


> Nomi I was expecting a picture in your post
> why dint you post one? now you are slacking and I am sad


sorry bro 
keep smile


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## nomi007

PAF F-16A block 15 #85721 from 14 sqn is seen deployed at Maripur AFB. The aircraft crashed on March 17th, 1994




rip

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## nomi007

One of the Pakistan Air Force's F-16s in flight over Florida before delivery in the mid eighties.

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## fatman17

*F-16 Fighting Falcon News*
*New Zealand Cancels F-16 Contract*
March 19, 2000 (by Lieven Dewitte) - *Citing budget constraints and other defense priorities, the government of New Zealand Monday cancelled an agreement to buy 28 F-16s from the United States. *



In announcing the cancellation, Prime Minister Helen Clark admitted the 700-million-dollar price tag for the planes was a bargain, but added that "one of the government's priorities is to inject logic and coherence into planning process for the Armed Forces. "
Defense Ministry officials said it was willing to buy 18 of the originally-contracted 28 planes which had been ordered by the previous administration.
Clark's Labor government took office in November. Jenny Shipley, the previous prime minister whose government had ordered the F-16s, criticized the move, saying "the complete cancellation of the contract will cost the country greatly and means an end to our ability to protect ourselves in the air."
New Zealand stands to lose 11 million dollars because of the cancellation.

*Related articles:*


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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> *F-16 Fighting Falcon News*
> *New Zealand Cancels F-16 Contract*
> March 19, 2000 (by Lieven Dewitte) - *Citing budget constraints and other defense priorities, the government of New Zealand Monday cancelled an agreement to buy 28 F-16s from the United States. *
> 
> 
> 
> In announcing the cancellation, Prime Minister Helen Clark admitted the 700-million-dollar price tag for the planes was a bargain, but added that "one of the government's priorities is to inject logic and coherence into planning process for the Armed Forces. "
> Defense Ministry officials said it was willing to buy 18 of the originally-contracted 28 planes which had been ordered by the previous administration.
> Clark's Labor government took office in November. Jenny Shipley, the previous prime minister whose government had ordered the F-16s, criticized the move, saying "the complete cancellation of the contract will cost the country greatly and means an end to our ability to protect ourselves in the air."
> New Zealand stands to lose 11 million dollars because of the cancellation.
> 
> *Related articles:*



Could the left over's from this deal work in our favor ? and do we know what blk they are and type ?


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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> *F-16 Fighting Falcon News*
> *New Zealand Cancels F-16 Contract*
> March 19, 2000 (by Lieven Dewitte) - *Citing budget constraints and other defense priorities, the government of New Zealand Monday cancelled an agreement to buy 28 F-16s from the United States. *
> 
> 
> 
> In announcing the cancellation, Prime Minister Helen Clark admitted the 700-million-dollar price tag for the planes was a bargain, but added that "one of the government's priorities is to inject logic and coherence into planning process for the Armed Forces. "
> Defense Ministry officials said it was willing to buy 18 of the originally-contracted 28 planes which had been ordered by the previous administration.
> Clark's Labor government took office in November. Jenny Shipley, the previous prime minister whose government had ordered the F-16s, criticized the move, saying "the complete cancellation of the contract will cost the country greatly and means an end to our ability to protect ourselves in the air."
> New Zealand stands to lose 11 million dollars because of the cancellation.
> 
> *Related articles:*


we spend 5bn for just 18 new and older upgrades??????

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## Thorough Pro

It doesn't work like that, you can't add leftover life of old frame to the new one that is built for 4000 hours. In simple words ML structural upgrade restores the life back to original specs, not adds it to remainder life of the old airframe 



khanasifm said:


> List of 13 F16s ADF (Most of them)
> 
> Current active F-16 airframes assigned to RJAF 2 sqn
> 
> 14th one, a 2 seater crashed in Jan 2014, the list still shows it active
> 
> F-16 Units - RJAF 2nd squadron
> 
> Original life 4000 hours, ANG flew them for ~3000 hours then stored, it got OCUed and ADFed (not Full MLU) *adding another 4000 hours (total 5000 hours)* plus engine upgrade to 220/E before RJAF got them, currently they have ~3000 hours or 20 years left
> 
> Compared to rest of PAF fleet it will fly with APG66A radar and not APG69(9) they can carry 600 Gallon tank for more air time in Air defense role (PAF F16s Carry 370 Gallon only except Blk 52). Paint scheme looks dirty and may be repainted


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## nomi007

HOPE now Paf will also try to get 24-36 mirage 2005-9 from UAE

WE ALSO TRY TO GET SOURCE CODE OF f-16s 
which is very important


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## ziaulislam

Imran Khan said:


> we spend 5bn for just 18 new and older upgrades??????



the 5 billion dollar deal was not completed . we didnt opted for last 18.

*The F-16 sale was primarily built around three separate Foreign Military Sales cases that had a potential value of $5.1 billion. The 2005 Kashmir earthquake and subsequent financial constraints caused Pakistan to reduce the number of new planes purchased from 36 to 18 lowering the overall value of the deal to $3.1 billion.

The three cases were built around the 18 new planes valued at $1.4 billion; associated F-16 munitions for approximately $641 million; and the Mid Life Update for Pakistan's existing F-16 fleet valued at $891 million. Additionally, the U.S. has agreed to provide Pakistan with F-16s designated as Excess Defense Articles (EDA); Pakistan accepted 12 Block 15 F-16 A/B EDA aircraft.


Read more: Pakistan's F-16 Program at Risk of Failure?: Wikileaks | Pakistan Military Review*

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## nomi007

ex-
RJAF F-16

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## fatman17

*10-0 Kill Ratio in Air Combat by PAF in Soviet Afghan War. *



 
_A Story of No. 9 Griffin and No. 14 Shaheen Squadron.
Squadron leader Hamid Qadri from Squadron No. 9
May 17th, 1986
Squadron Leader Badar from Squadron No. 14,
April 16th, 1987
Squadron Leader Athar Bokhari from Squadron No. 14,
April 8th, 1988
Flight Lieutenant Khalid Mahmood from Squadron No. 14,
September 12th, 1988
Flight Lieutenant Khalid Mahmood from Squadron No. 14,
November 3rd, 1988_



17 May 1986 Sqn. Ldr. A. Hameed Qadri
No. 9 Squadron, PAF F-16A Fighting Falcon
(S. No. 82-723)

PAF Sargodha *2 Soviet/Afghan Su-22s Shot down both Su-22s in a single sortie 16,000 ft.* over Parachinar, Pakistan. 1 AIM-9L Sidewinder Kill, 1 Gun Kill.

30 March 1987 Wng. Cdr. Abdul Razzaq
No. 9 Squadron, PAF F-16A Fighting Falcon
PAF Sargodha *1 Soviet/Afghan An-26 Shot down near Miranshah, *Pakistan while on a recce mission.

16 April 1987 Sqn. Ldr. Badar Islam
No. 14 Squadron, PAF F-16A Fighting Falcon
PAF Minhas (Kamra) *1 Soviet/Afghan Su-22 Shot down after strafing Pakistani villages near Tull*, Pakistan along with another Su-22 and with a pair of MiG-23MLDs flying top cover. Remaining 3 aircraft bugged out.

8 April 1988 Sqn. Ldr. Athar Bokhari
No. 14 Squadron, PAF F-16A Fighting Falcon
(S. No. 85-725)

PAF Minhas (Kamra) *1 Soviet Su-25*
Col. Ruskoi Alexander Valadimirovich, Soviet Air Force (ejected) *1 PAF F-16 Vs. 4 Soviet Su-25s*. Night interception over Parachinar, Pakistan. AIM-9L Sidewinder Kill. Remaining 3 Su-25s bugged out. Soviet Su-25 pilot, *Col. Ruskoi Alexander Valadimirovich, (later Vice-President of Russia) was taken prisoner by Pakistani authorities.*

12 September 1988 Flt. Lt. Khalid Mahmood
No. 14 Squadron, PAF F-16A Fighting Falcon
(S. No. 85-728) PAF Minhas (Kamra) *2 Soviet MiG-23MLDs 2 PAF F-16s Vs. 6 Soviet MiG-23s*. Near Nawagai border area with Pakistan. Both Kills in a single sortie with AIM-9L and AIM-9P Sidewinders.

3 November 1988 Flt. Lt. Khalid Mahmood
No. 14 Squadron, PAF F-16A Fighting Falcon
(S. No. 84-717)
PAF Minhas (Kamra) *1 Afghan Air Force Su-22*

Capt. Hashim, AAF (ejected) *2 PAF F-16s Vs. 6 Soviet/Afghan Su-22s. (3 on ground attack and 3 flying top cover)* near Tull, Pakistan. Kill made with 2 AIM-9L Sidewinders. *Afghan pilot, Capt. Hashim, was captured after bailing out.*

20/21 November 1988 Muhammad Abbas Khattak
No. 14 Squadron, PAF F-16A Fighting Falcon
PAF Minhas (Kamra) *1 Soviet An-26 Shot down while on a recce mission inside Pakistan*. PAF pilot later Chief of the Air Staff, PAF, 1994-1997.

31 January 1989 Flt. Lt. Khalid Mahmood
No. 14 Squadron, PAF F-16B Fighting Falcon

PAF Minhas (Kamra) *1 Soviet An-24 *Night interception near Bannu, Pakistan while on a solo 'hot scramble'. An-24 on bombing run crashed while attempting to surrender. Thus credited as 'manoeuvre kill'.

* No PAF jet was shot down during air combat, by the enemy establishing a 10-0 kill ratio in the favor of PAF
* During the entire, period of war 1 PAF F-16 was shot down by mistakenly fired AIM-9L from another PAF F-16.
* MORE than 10 jets were shot down during the war, however REAL numbers of jets shot down by the PAF during the war is still "classified".
* PAF is one of the FEW air forces around the world having REAL experience with F-16s in air to air combat and having shot down enemy jets.
* One Soviet/Afghan Mig-21 Surrendered and, now is on display in Karachi air museum 
* PAF pilots remain one of the unique air force pilots in the world, having shot down jets from 4 Different Air Forces. [Indian/Israeli/USSR/Afghan]






_Tail of Su-25 shot down by Sqn Ldr Athar (No.14 Sqn)_






_Sqn Ldr Hameed Qadri standing with a Su22 wing preserved outside No.9 Sqn. He shot down two Su-22s on 17th May, 1986._






_Video capture of HUD footage of
Flt Lt Badr-ul-Islam's Su-22 kill on 16th Apr,1987._






_Hameed Qadri (Late), M.Razzaq (late), Yousaf Chaudhry, Badar, Athar Bukhari







MiG-21MF and Su-22M-4K seen at the Peshawar AB, in October 1989, after both planes were flown there by defecting Afghani pilots



_

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## Indus Falcon

Makes one wonder what were the Afghans thinking?


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## syedali73

*10-0 Kill Ratio in Air Combat by PAF in Soviet Afghan War.*

Totally asymmetric engagements. Huge technological gap between PAF F-16s and the Soviet/Afghan aircrafts. Nothing to be proud of, at least in my humble opinion. If these were shot down by F-6 or Mirages, perhaps than it would be considered 'kills'.

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## Indus Falcon

syedali73 said:


> *10-0 Kill Ratio in Air Combat by PAF in Soviet Afghan War.*
> 
> Totally asymmetric engagements. Huge technological gap between PAF F-16s and the Soviet/Afghan aircrafts. Nothing to be proud of, at least in my humble opinion. If these were shot down by F-6 or Mirages, perhaps than it would be considered 'kills'.



Thank God you are just an armchair general !!!!

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## syedali73

Abu Nasar said:


> Thank God you are just an armchair general !!!!


Alhamdulillah, Allah has protected me from jangoism.

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## Donatello

syedali73 said:


> *10-0 Kill Ratio in Air Combat by PAF in Soviet Afghan War.*
> 
> Totally asymmetric engagements. Huge technological gap between PAF F-16s and the Soviet/Afghan aircrafts. Nothing to be proud of, at least in my humble opinion. If these were shot down by F-6 or Mirages, perhaps than it would be considered 'kills'.




A kill is a kill.

Since Our arch enemy to the east still flys a lot of soviet era planes, it would be interesting to see how PAF matches up, considering BVR fighters like JF-17 and F-16 coming. Perhaps with the exception of Mirage 2000, Su30 and Mig29, rest are all cannon fodder.

But it also shows that PAF was a very proficient wvr/dog fighting force.


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## syedali73

Donatello said:


> A kill is a kill.
> 
> Since Our arch enemy to the east still flys a lot of soviet era planes, it would be interesting to see how PAF matches up, considering BVR fighters like JF-17 and F-16 coming. Perhaps with the exception of Mirage 2000, Su30 and Mig29, rest are all cannon fodder.
> 
> But it also shows that PAF was a very proficient wvr/dog fighting force.


Right, in Ex CM Balochistan Raisani's words "_a degree is a degree, real or fake_". I don't know what kind of proficiency is needed to shoot down ground attack and unarmed transport aircrafts. But if you say, a kill is a kill, so be it.

As far as canon fodder is concerned, why would Indians field those relics (many are already retired minus Bisons, which are still formidable due to BVR) in the first place? So that PAF shoot those down and bring down IAF's morale? In an event of war, IAF will field her front line fighters to quickly establish complete air superiority.

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## Bilal.

syedali73 said:


> Right, in Ex CM Balochistan Raisani's words "_a degree is a degree, real or fake_". I don't know what kind of proficiency is needed to shoot down ground attack and unarmed transport aircrafts. But if you say, a kill is a kill, so be it.
> 
> As far as canon fodder is concerned, why would Indians field those relics (many are already retired minus Bisons, which are still formidable due to BVR) in the first place? So that PAF shoot those down and bring down IAF's morale? In an event of war, IAF will field her front line fighters to quickly establish complete air superiority.



By that measure non of the kills by the US and the allies can be counted in the two gulf wars and the yugoslavia.

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## syedali73

Bilal. said:


> By that measure non of the kills by the US and the allies can be counted in the two gulf wars and the yugoslavia.


Yes, you are right. If someone insists to call 'duckshoot' a kill, then maybe. 

Yes, when PAF pilots in their F-86s shot down superior Hunters and nimble Gnats, those were the kills.


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## Inception-06

Donatello said:


> A kill is a kill.
> 
> Perhaps with the exception of Mirage 2000, Su30 and Mig29, rest are all cannon fodder.
> 
> .



And what is than our Mirrage and J-7 Fleet, which is more than 60% of the PAF inventory also "cannon fodder" or "*Air superiority fighter" *?


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## Bilal.

syedali73 said:


> Yes, you are right. If someone insists to call 'duckshoot' a kill, then maybe.
> 
> Yes, when PAF pilots in their F-86s shot down superior Hunters and nimble Gnats, those were the kills.



Those were THE kills, afghan/soviet ones were just kills


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## Donatello

Ulla said:


> And what is than our Mirrage and J-7 Fleet, which is more than 60% of the PAF inventory also "cannon fodder" or "*Air superiority fighter" *?



Technically the old F-7s and Mirages are cannon fodder. But At least they are being phased out.



syedali73 said:


> Right, in Ex CM Balochistan Raisani's words "_a degree is a degree, real or fake_". I don't know what kind of proficiency is needed to shoot down ground attack and unarmed transport aircrafts. But if you say, a kill is a kill, so be it.
> 
> As far as canon fodder is concerned, why would Indians field those relics (many are already retired minus Bisons, which are still formidable due to BVR) in the first place? So that PAF shoot those down and bring down IAF's morale? In an event of war, IAF will field her front line fighters to quickly establish complete air superiority.



I think you are using the wrong analogy here. But nevermind. The aircraft were shot down and hence the kill recorded.

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## nomi007

finally pakistan got chinese f-16




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=687993431257002


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## khanasifm

Potential for additional F16 assuming these were used total 45000 hours / 34 = ~1300 hours during the period 2003-2010/12 by Italian and another 3000 by USAF there should be at least another 3000 or 4000 hours left on them

VMAS_F-16_index



khanasifm said:


> Potential for additional F16 assuming these were flown for a total 45000 hours / 34 = ~1300 hours per a/c during the period 2003-2010/12 by Italian and another 3000 by USAF there should be at least another 3000 or 4000 hours left on them. With same engine as PAF i.e. 220E and all other bells and whistle
> 
> VMAS_F-16_index

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## ziaulislam

well with F-35 pouring in soon, we should expect more f-16s available from USAF but to get them we will need political support from USA which seems sketchy at the moment


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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> well with F-35 pouring in soon, we should expect more f-16s available from USAF but to get them we will need political support from USA which seems sketchy at the moment


 
3rd party route is best. jordan, dutch, belgium etc.


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## fatman17

Quote of the Day
Hold your stick, or lose your balls. -- Bumper sticker


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## Luftwaffe

fatman17 said:


> 3rd party route is best. jordan, dutch, belgium etc.


 
Jordan sold 13 f-16s to Pakistan at the same time they sold earlier some f-5s and kept in reserve/retired f-1s I suspect either advance block 50+ f-16s or the saudi funded typhoons could be arriving by 2017 but don't think so jordan can operate 2 squadons or more typhoons they are expensive...belgium/dutch sold some f-16s to jordan, how much life is left belgium/dutch falcons.


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## fatman17

Luftwaffe said:


> Jordan sold 13 f-16s to Pakistan at the same time they sold earlier some f-5s and kept in reserve/retired f-1s I suspect either advance block 50+ f-16s or the saudi funded typhoons could be arriving by 2017 but don't think so jordan can operate 2 squadons or more typhoons they are expensive...belgium/dutch sold some f-16s to jordan, how much life is left belgium/dutch falcons.


 
after MLU they are good for another 4,000 hours minimum.


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## drunken-monke

syedali73 said:


> *10-0 Kill Ratio in Air Combat by PAF in Soviet Afghan War.*
> 
> Totally asymmetric engagements. Huge technological gap between PAF F-16s and the Soviet/Afghan aircrafts. Nothing to be proud of, at least in my humble opinion. If these were shot down by F-6 or Mirages, perhaps than it would be considered 'kills'.


A kill is a kill irrespective of platform and opponent... Wouldn't Su22 or Su25 or Mig 21 fired on F16???

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## Indus Falcon

drunken-monke said:


> A kill is a kill irrespective of platform and opponent... Wouldn't Su22 or Su25 or Mig 21 fired on F16???



Try explaining that to arm chair generals!


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## drunken-monke

Abu Nasar said:


> Try explaining that to arm chair generals!


Its futile to put water inside inverted water jar....

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## nomi007

ex rjaf






f-16 mlu

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## nomi007

AT 
*Shaheed Mwaffaq Air Base*
*



*home of Jordanian vipers
*ex-rjaf f-16*

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## airmarshal

nomi007 said:


> AT
> *Shaheed Mwaffaq Air Base*
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *home of Jordanian vipers
> *ex-rjaf f-16*



These are not F-16A that Jordan has. These are F-16C block 40/42 as they seem to have wide angle holographic HUD fitted only to those two blocks.

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## Nishan_101

Jordans had 16 F-16sA/B so why PAF got 13 from them? Also tell me any chances of Jordan assembling JF-17s Block-II about 70 of them along with 30+ K-8s...? As this will allow them to sell F-5s to Turkey and later on additional 80 JF-17 Block-IIIs will make way out of the remaining 46+16 F-16s.


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## Luftwaffe

Nishan_101 said:


> Jordans had 16 F-16sA/B so why PAF got 13 from them? Also tell me any chances of Jordan assembling JF-17s Block-II about 70 of them along with 30+ K-8s...? As this will allow them to sell F-5s to Turkey and later on additional 80 JF-17 Block-IIIs will make way out of the remaining 46+16 F-16s.



Please yaar! Turkey is getting rid of F-5s and we suspect they would get Kai T-50 in the future after they replace F-5s/T-38..T-38 some of them are going under upgrades.

The chances of JF-17 for Jordan are next to zilch zero unless there is a proven deal, their future could be Block 50+/52 and or BAE Typhoons.

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## Indus Falcon

Nishan_101 said:


> Jordans had 16 F-16sA/B so why PAF got 13 from them? Also tell me any chances of Jordan assembling JF-17s Block-II about 70 of them along with 30+ K-8s...? As this will allow them to sell F-5s to Turkey and later on additional 80 JF-17 Block-IIIs will make way out of the remaining 46+16 F-16s.



You remind me of a WSO I once had, young guy, fresh out of the academy and just as smart as you!

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## ziaulislam

Luftwaffe said:


> Please yaar! Turkey is getting rid of F-5s and we suspect they would get Kai T-50 in the future after they replace F-5s/T-38..T-38 some of them are going under upgrades.
> 
> The chances of JF-17 for Jordan are next to zilch zero unless there is a proven deal, their future could be Block 50+/52 and or BAE Typhoons.



jordan isnt a rich country like arbas. i dont think so they will buy anything else unless its funded by some arab state or as an AID by USA.
they have pretty good relations with Israel


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## ali_raza

ziaulislam said:


> jordan isnt a rich country like arbas. i dont think so they will buy anything else unless its funded by some arab state or as an AID by USA.
> they have pretty good relations with Israel


lol jordan is arab too.u must be talking about GCC


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## he-man

Myth_buster_1 said:


> my friend, JAS-39 was an alternative plan back in 2005-6 when pakistan was negotiating Erieye deal with sweden. god for bid, if US once again jeopardize F-16 deal again then we have new alternative that we don't know of and PAF is prepared for this. ACM has mentioned this in his interview with DAWN NEWS.
> 
> 
> the 36 FC-20 deal is worth 1.5 billion dollars while 18 F-16 block 52+ is close to 500 million dollars. suggesting that FC-20 is more expensive thus it will incorporate better technology with par to 4.5 generation fighter.
> 
> 
> the thing is, our newbie military fans have a lot of influence with unreliable sources which apparently are dominated with indian garbage and they tend to take it as reality check.
> FC-20 will incorporate
> - AESA radar
> - TVC engine ( pakistan has requested AL-31 from russia)
> - DSI (stealth feature)
> - advance EW systems
> - new armaments
> 
> Fc-20 will be as good as mki.



Mki will be modernized to super standard by then but even now mki is plain over rated just like f-16


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## ziaulislam

ali_raza said:


> lol jordan is arab too.u must be talking about GCC


ofcourse its Arab. most Arab are rich but few arent. e.g Yemen is too arab but one of the poorest in the whole world!. jordan is in intermediate group. then there is iraq which is also an arba state be definattion but still not a GCC memeber.
nevertheless, its unlikley jordan will buy more airplanes.
it would be intersting where will PAF seek more f-16s.


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## ali_raza

ziaulislam said:


> ofcourse its Arab. most Arab are rich but few arent. e.g Yemen is too arab but one of the poorest in the whole world!. jordan is in intermediate group. then there is iraq which is also an arba state be definattion but still not a GCC memeber.
> nevertheless, its unlikley jordan will buy more airplanes.
> it would be intersting where will PAF seek more f-16s.


i just said its the GCC.i know there are dozen other arabs.i have been living here since my childhood.


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## ziaulislam

ali_raza said:


> i just said its the GCC.i know there are dozen other arabs.i have been living here since my childhood.



well i didnt saw a reason for "lots of laughs"

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## ali_raza

ziaulislam said:


> well i didnt saw a reason for "lots of laughs"


me too :/


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## Nishan_101

Which are the Muslim countries that operates F-16A/B??? And how many of them?
As PAF has a clear chance of buying it with US funds.


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## nomi007

air refuling ... at 15000ft






any idea when 1st jordian f-16 is coming to pakistan

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## TOPGUN

nomi007 said:


> air refuling ... at 15000ft
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> any idea when 1st jordian f-16 is coming to pakistan



Soon enough , perhaps in april now since we have passed march .. it won't be long


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## nomi007

nomi007 said:


> air refuling ... at 15000ft
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> any idea when 1st jordian f-16 is coming to pakistan

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## fatman17

Nishan_101 said:


> Which are the Muslim countries that operates F-16A/B??? And how many of them?
> As PAF has a clear chance of buying it with US funds.


 
how.....?


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## fatman17



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## fatman17

count em 26...

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## khanboy007

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 23050
> 
> 
> count em 26...



^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

it says *PAF*

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## nomi007



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## Nishan_101

When PAF getting 14 remaining F-16s from US and also what about buying 21 from Venuezvella.???


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## volatile

Dear Sir`s

If some one post actual not photoshopped pic of F-16 and JF-17 in action probably from some excercise or CAP as i have`nt seen or heard these two fighters together.
Regards & thanks


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## That Guy

volatile said:


> Dear Sir`s
> 
> If some one post actual not photoshopped pic of F-16 and JF-17 in action probably from some excercise or CAP as i have`nt seen or heard these two fighters together.
> Regards & thanks


And they'll probably never fly together for a long long time (at least not in public). The US monitors the F-16s closely, and has asked Pakistan to never fly it along side the JF-17, as the US doesn't want the Chinese to get any valuable data comparing the two side by side. It sounds paranoid, but it's how these things work.

This is also why during air shows, the two are flown separately.


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## fatman17

That Guy said:


> And they'll probably never fly together for a long long time (at least not in public). The US monitors the F-16s closely, and has asked Pakistan to never fly it along side the JF-17, as the US doesn't want the Chinese to get any valuable data comparing the two side by side. It sounds paranoid, but it's how these things work.
> 
> This is also why during air shows, the two are flown separately.


 
pl get real......


----------



## Quwa

That Guy said:


> And they'll probably never fly together for a long long time (at least not in public). The US monitors the F-16s closely, and has asked Pakistan to never fly it along side the JF-17, as the US doesn't want the Chinese to get any valuable data comparing the two side by side. It sounds paranoid, but it's how these things work.
> 
> This is also why during air shows, the two are flown separately.


What if PAF sends JF-17s on international exercises that involve F-16 and perhaps even F-15s, F/A-18s and F/A-22s?


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## volatile

I mean no disrespect to any one but F-16s are our to fly in our air space .Did you mean that we cant even fly it against F-7s,Pgs or any other Chinese ? Any one comment on that as this seems hard to believe


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## SQ8

volatile said:


> I mean no disrespect to any one but F-16s are our to fly in our air space .Did you mean that we cant even fly it against F-7s,Pgs or any other Chinese ? Any one comment on that as this seems hard to believe


NO. we can fly them all we like in our space, as we want them, when we want them.. where we want them. 
The ONLY thing we are NOT permitted to do is to try and open the systems on them to have them copied by us or the Chinese.


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## volatile

Yes this is valid point Sir Oscar I just meant photo of F-16 and JF-17 together (production variant)


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## Side-Winder



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## Cool_Soldier

Nice picture....
PAF supposed to received RJAF 13 F16 in March but no news yet. I waiting to see them in PAF color with a new viper Sqd.


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## nomi007



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## VCheng

Cool_Soldier said:


> Nice picture....
> PAF supposed to received RJAF 13 F16 in March but no news yet. I waiting to see them in PAF color with a new viper Sqd.



The Congressional process for that approval is still not complete.


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## That Guy

Mark Sien said:


> What if PAF sends JF-17s on international exercises that involve F-16 and perhaps even F-15s, F/A-18s and F/A-22s?


Not going to happen. The US wouldn't allow it without sever restrictions.



fatman17 said:


> pl get real......


 What did I say that was so wrong? Hasn't the US restricted Pakistan's F-16 use? Does it not monitor their use?


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## nomi007

*1987..... sargodha airbase 
a memorable picture of legends of Afghan war*

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## nomi007



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## Nishan_101

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 23251
> View attachment 23252



When PAF getting their 14 remaining F-16s from US and what about 21 F-16s in Venezuela ????????


----------



## fatman17

*F-16 Units*
*Pakistan Air Force*
F-16 Units main menu 
33 W Kamra AB
*Status:* 
Disbanded



14 sqn _"Shaheens"_
*
Status:*
Disbanded


(Details)
*Version:* F-16A/B block 15
*Role:* Air Defense
*Tailband:* N/A
Disbanded in September of 1993.
38 W Sargodha AB
*Status:* 
Active



9 sqn _"Griffins"_
*
Status:*
Active


Details
*Version:* F-16A/B block 20 MLU
*Role:* Multirole, Training
*Tailband:* N/A



11 sqn _"Arrows"_
*
Status:*
Active


Details
*Version:* F-16A/B block 20 MLU
*Role:* Multirole
*Tailband:* N/A
39 W Shahbaz AB
*Status:* 
Active



5 sqn _"Falcons"_
*
Status:*
Active


(Details)
*Version:* F-16C/D block 52
*Role:* Multirole
*Tailband:* N/A

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## Thorough Pro

Two squadrons of Block 20 MLU? where did they cam from and when?


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## fatman17

Thorough Pro said:


> Two squadrons of Block 20 MLU? where did they cam from and when?


 
even the best websites can be wrong.


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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## Neptune

Just found that on net. I believe it's taken at TAI facilities in Ankara.

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## MastanKhan

That Guy said:


> Not going to happen. The US wouldn't allow it without sever restrictions.
> 
> 
> What did I say that was so wrong? Hasn't the US restricted Pakistan's F-16 use? Does it not monitor their use?


 
Sir,

U S monitors the use of every F16 it hs sold---. PK hs no rstriction on its use----only being---chinese not to see or operte it---. The U S wpns industry would love to see the F16 blow the su30 and M2ks to smithreens with their missiles.


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## Nishan_101

Neptune said:


> Just found that on net. I believe it's taken at TAI facilities in Ankara.



Hope to see 14 more F-16s from US and 21 from Venezuelan Air Force.

PAF should also be looking in to getting 250+ AH-1s present in different military for PAA.... with US support of funds..

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## nomi007

RJAF F-16BM


----------



## That Guy

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> U S monitors the use of every F16 it hs sold---. PK hs no rstriction on its use----only being---*chinese not to see or operte it*---. The U S wpns industry would love to see the F16 blow the su30 and M2ks to smithreens with their missiles.


Which really proves my point. When I meant use, I didn't mean war time use, I really should've be more clear. PAF is not allowed to fly it along side the JF-17 is my point.


----------



## Windjammer

That Guy said:


> Which really proves my point. When I meant use, I didn't mean war time use, I really should've be more clear. PAF is not allowed to fly it along side the JF-17 is my point.

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## That Guy

Windjammer said:


>


When I say not allowed to fly the JF-17 along side the F-16, I meant testing wise, I REALLY need to be more clear. 

Also, Is this picture authentic? If it is, what was the scenario involved? Simply presenting a picture without an explanation is pointless. For example, Pakistan has flown the F-16s and the JF-17s back to back in air shows, but they were heavily restricted in what they could do together. I also have no doubt that they've flown together from one air base to another, but testing wise, I doubt they've been tested side by side.


----------



## MastanKhan

That Guy said:


> Which really proves my point. When I meant use, I didn't mean war time use, I really should've be more clear. PAF is not allowed to fly it along side the JF-17 is my point.


 
Hi,

You have NO POINT at all---you are just winging it left and right. It will fly and operate alongside any aircraft that pakistan has---in peace time or in times of war---with JF17 or F7PG or anything else pakistan acquires from china.

In order for an air force to offer its best---it has to excercize with all its assets

Amongst the restrictions are that chinese cannot access it and neither can the sealed consoles opened up. The air bases where the aircraft are deployed maybe seperate---but there is no restrictions on operations being carried out together.

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## That Guy

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You have NO POINT at all---you are just winging it left and right. It will fly and operate alongside any aircraft that pakistan has---in peace time or in times of war---with JF17 or F7PG or anything else pakistan acquires from china.
> 
> In order for an air force to offer its best---it has to excercize with all its assets
> 
> Amongst the restrictions are that chinese cannot access it and neither can the sealed consoles opened up. The air bases where the aircraft are deployed maybe seperate---but there is no restrictions on operations being carried out together.


Don't insult me, I made a mistake in making my point, which I corrected, how about you actually read my comments? Why do you even think that the US monitor's Pakistan's use of the F-16? It's precisely for the reasons I gave.


----------



## Windjammer

That Guy said:


> When I say not allowed to fly the JF-17 along side the F-16, I meant testing wise, I REALLY need to be more clear.
> 
> Also, Is this picture authentic? If it is, what was the scenario involved? Simply presenting a picture without an explanation is pointless. For example, Pakistan has flown the F-16s and the JF-17s back to back in air shows, but they were heavily restricted in what they could do together. I also have no doubt that they've flown together from one air base to another, but testing wise, I doubt they've been tested side by side.


The original source of the picture is suffice to prove it's authenticity, when the F-16s and F-7PGs are put into DACT exercises, why do u think same can't be applied with JF-17s. Surely you don't believe that the Americans are monitoring every sortie or formation flown by the F-16s.


----------



## MastanKhan

That Guy said:


> Don't insult me, I made a mistake in making my point, which I corrected, how about you actually read my comments? Why do you even think that the US monitor's Pakistan's use of the F-16? It's precisely for the reasons I gave.


 
Hi,

What your comments mean and come out are like there is a conspiracy behind this aircraft F16---. The things is that the U S monitors every F16 that it has sold to every country---it monitors it less with those nations who are partners in developing the technology but but it still has personale.

PAF is active frontline airforce participating in wot actively---where regular sorties are flown by aircraft of all kind including the and being lead by the F16's. As Blk52 is a new aircraft with pakistan air force---so it would have more monitoring to see how it performs and what issues it has.

Majority of the newer cars have hotlines for technicians where techs and operators on the other side can see and look at the data to look into the problems----the technology has advanced at such a high rate that local techs have been left far behind----they need help 24/7 to resolve on field issues.

These monitors are also there to learn from the issues tha pak F16 will develop during their missions or problems that have come up and been resolved by the paks.

As the americans F16's are engaged in war---so are the pakistani F16's---. Two different groups----two sets of techs and operators----now it is time to compare notes.

The americans never shy away from competition and that between a chinese and an american aircraft----they would love it----it is a dream come true for them.

They want to see and know what the JF17 will do against the F16 and the F16 against the JF17 and what both will do when flying side by side---. Americans thrive on that---.


----------



## volatile

Please post more pic of both aeroplanes together


----------



## nomi007

Test pilots Viktor Pugatshev in the
Su-27 and Bland Smith in the F-16C preparing for their demos during the 1989 Paris Airshow.



pakistani flag is clearly visible

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## That Guy

Windjammer said:


> The original source of the picture is suffice to prove it's authenticity, when the F-16s and F-7PGs are put into DACT exercises, why do u think same can't be applied with JF-17s. Surely you don't believe that the Americans are monitoring every sortie or formation flown by the F-16s.


The F-7PG is too different to the F-16, so I don't think the comparison is fair. With the amount of spying that the US does, and the massive concern the US has about China, why should it be out of the realms of reality that they're monitoring such activities closely?



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What your comments mean and come out are like there is a conspiracy behind this aircraft F16---. The things is that the U S monitors every F16 that it has sold to every country---it monitors it less with those nations who are partners in developing the technology but but it still has personale.
> 
> PAF is active frontline airforce participating in wot actively---where regular sorties are flown by aircraft of all kind including the and being lead by the F16's. As Blk52 is a new aircraft with pakistan air force---so it would have more monitoring to see how it performs and what issues it has.
> 
> Majority of the newer cars have hotlines for technicians where techs and operators on the other side can see and look at the data to look into the problems----the technology has advanced at such a high rate that local techs have been left far behind----they need help 24/7 to resolve on field issues.
> 
> These monitors are also there to learn from the issues tha pak F16 will develop during their missions or problems that have come up and been resolved by the paks.
> 
> As the americans F16's are engaged in war---so are the pakistani F16's---. Two different groups----two sets of techs and operators----now it is time to compare notes.
> 
> The americans never shy away from competition and that between a chinese and an american aircraft----they would love it----it is a dream come true for them.
> 
> They want to see and know what the JF17 will do against the F16 and the F16 against the JF17 and what both will do when flying side by side---. Americans thrive on that---.


First of all, stop saying "Hi" everytime you post a comment. You don't say hi everytime you say something to someone in the real world, so why should this be different?

Next, this isn't a conspiracy theory, it's fact that the US monitors Pakistan F-16s closely for fear of the tech falling into Chinese hands. Why do you think they made a big uproar about the stealth heli crash wreckage during the Abbotabad raid? Not everything can be dismissed as a conspiracy theory.

Now, everything else you've said except for the second last sentence, I think proves my point. You're actually making my argument for me, so thank you very much.

The Americans don't shy away from competition, but that doesn't mean they'll let go of their technological advancements that easily. They don't want their potential rival to know what US machines are capable off, because that would hurt their national security.

You're being too optimistic, and ignoring security and geopolitical facts.


----------



## Imran Khan

That Guy said:


> Don't insult me, I made a mistake in making my point, which I corrected, how about you actually read my comments? Why do you even think that the US monitor's Pakistan's use of the F-16? It's precisely for the reasons I gave.


* you claimed this fart so please prove it with reference mr that PAF IS NOT ALLOWED TO FLY WITH . your claim is kiddish but more like 5 years old kid can't say it now give us backup of your claim please .*

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## Informant

That Guy said:


> The F-7PG is too different to the F-16, so I don't think the comparison is fair. With the amount of spying that the US does, and the massive concern the US has about China, why should it be out of the realms of reality that they're monitoring such activities closely?
> 
> 
> First of all, stop saying "Hi" everytime you post a comment. You don't say hi everytime you say something to someone in the real world, so why should this be different?
> 
> Next, this isn't a conspiracy theory, it's fact that the US monitors Pakistan F-16s closely for fear of the tech falling into Chinese hands. Why do you think they made a big uproar about the stealth heli crash wreckage during the Abbotabad raid? Not everything can be dismissed as a conspiracy theory.
> 
> Now, everything else you've said except for the second last sentence, I think proves my point. You're actually making my argument for me, so thank you very much.
> 
> The Americans don't shy away from competition, but that doesn't mean they'll let go of their technological advancements that easily. They don't want their potential rival to know what US machines are capable off, because that would hurt their national security.
> 
> You're being too optimistic, and ignoring security and geopolitical facts.




Quit it man, F-16s have no restriction to not fly with Chinese planes. Not on Chinese soil or by Chinese technicians. That's it, we are free to do whatever we want to. That guy you're ralking to is Ex-PAF Pilot Officer. Come on man just quit it.

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## airmarshal

Informant said:


> Quit it man, F-16s have no restriction to not fly with Chinese planes. Not on Chinese soil or by Chinese technicians. That's it, we are free to do whatever we want to. That guy you're ralking to is Ex-PAF Pilot Officer. Come on man just quit it.



As far as I know, the only thing we cant do is to have access to the source code of F-16 software. Few countries have been given access to it, like Turkey. 

The advantage of the access is that source code can be modified for weapons and pods other than those sanctioned by US, Like Turkey can adapt local weapons to its F-16 fleet which Pakistan cant.

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## Nishan_101

Pakistan needs to work well with US in getting F-16s back.


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## Informant

airmarshal said:


> As far as I know, the only thing we cant do is to have access to the source code of F-16 software. Few countries have been given access to it, like Turkey.
> 
> The advantage of the access is that source code can be modified for weapons and pods other than those sanctioned by US, Like Turkey can adapt local weapons to its F-16 fleet which Pakistan cant.



If i recall correctly we have complete access, it is just fluff propagated through media. No such thing as not having codes. Do we have the capability to produce weaponry is another matter.


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## Munir

Informant said:


> If i recall correctly we have complete access, it is just fluff propagated through media. No such thing as not having codes. Do we have the capability to produce weaponry is another matter.



One cannot just add something on the pylon... It is a very complex process on integrating in the computer of the plane and then trials to get it accepted. Do you thing the producer will accept the risks? I doubt that. Besides that one has rules of acceptance..


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## Donatello

While it is good news that Pakistan might be increasing the F-16 fleet strength in coming years, it must also increase the spare parts and weapons stock to ensure these jets can easily be worked, even if sanctions were imposed for a limited or longer time period.


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## Luftwaffe

Donatello said:


> While it is good news that Pakistan might be increasing the F-16 fleet strength in coming years, it must also increase the spare parts and weapons stock to ensure these jets can easily be worked, even if sanctions were imposed for a limited or longer time period.



Already doing it, this time they've learned their lesson related to F-16s. 

But you are right PAF need to increase weapons stock related to F-16 fleet maybe buy AIM-9X and AIM-120C-7 and or D variant.


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## Donatello

Luftwaffe said:


> Already doing it, this time they've learned their lesson related to F-16s.
> 
> But you are right PAF need to increase weapons stock related to F-16 fleet maybe buy AIM-9X and AIM-120C-7 and or D variant.



AIM9X might be hard to come by, depends a lot on the ongoing warming of ties b/w US and Pakistan.It really is a game changer in the WVR scenario and US would be keen to not give PAF this advantage in India vs Pakistan scenario. However, i think the reason they gave PAF AIM120 was that Pakistan was already on track to field SD-10 (which is comparable to AIM120) and thus already a game changer. If PAF can source an alternate to AIM9X, US might give in and offer Pakistan AIM9X.


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## Luftwaffe

Donatello said:


> AIM9X might be hard to come by, depends a lot on the ongoing warming of ties b/w US and Pakistan.It really is a game changer in the WVR scenario and US would be keen to not give PAF this advantage in India vs Pakistan scenario. However, i think the reason they gave PAF AIM120 was that Pakistan was already on track to field SD-10 (which is comparable to AIM120) and thus already a game changer. If PAF can source an alternate to AIM9X, US might give in and offer Pakistan AIM9X.



Even if there is alternative to AIM-9X would US let PAF integrate on F-16s I doubt so, if AIM-120 a game changer is sold to Pakistan 500 of them US should be able to sell AIM-9X provided request to purchase it..


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## Donatello

Luftwaffe said:


> Even if there is alternative to AIM-9X would US let PAF integrate on F-16s I doubt so, if AIM-120 a game changer is sold to Pakistan 500 of them US should be able to sell AIM-9X provided request to purchase it..



I meant that if PAF can field a missile comparable to AIM9X on say JF-17 which will form the backbone of PAF fleet, then US would would be compelled to offer AIM9X for F-16s, as PAF already would have gotten that capability on other platforms. AIM120 came as PAF got SD-10 for JF-17s. Remember US did not offer AIM120 to Egypt. And i am sure PAF would have requested AIM9X already, just like the AGM88 HARM which was denied.


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## Luftwaffe

Donatello said:


> I meant that if PAF can field a missile comparable to AIM9X on say JF-17 which will form the backbone of PAF fleet, then US would would be compelled to offer AIM9X for F-16s, as PAF already would have gotten that capability on other platforms. AIM120 came as PAF got SD-10 for JF-17s. Remember US did not offer AIM120 to Egypt. And i am sure PAF would have requested AIM9X already, just like the AGM88 HARM which was denied.



AIM-120 to egypt is not offered because israelis don't want US to arm egypt's 200+F-16s since egypt is one country that can turn against allys anytime a very ungrateful nation by nature, imagine if egypt is armed with 1200 AIM-120C that would be nightmare. On the other hand egypt has AH-64A upgraded to D Block II Apache and US never offered us that.

Although it is a good news that Pakistan AIM9M upgraded to AIM-9M-8 and-9.
$5.9M to Upgrade 310 AIM-9 Sidewinders for Pakistan (updated)

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## airmarshal

Informant said:


> If i recall correctly we have complete access, it is just fluff propagated through media. No such thing as not having codes. Do we have the capability to produce weaponry is another matter.



Not a question of production of weaponry. We do have French weapons that F-16 cant carry. Its because we cant integrate these weapons to F-16.


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## SQ8

Luftwaffe said:


> AIM-120 to egypt is not offered because israelis don't want US to arm egypt's 200+F-16s since egypt is one country that can turn against allys anytime a very ungrateful nation by nature, imagine if egypt is armed with 1200 AIM-120C that would be nightmare. On the other hand egypt has AH-64A upgraded to D Block II Apache and US never offered us that.
> 
> Although it is a good news that Pakistan AIM9M upgraded to AIM-9M-8 and-9.
> $5.9M to Upgrade 310 AIM-9 Sidewinders for Pakistan (updated)



The 120C is now being sold to egypt as the Israelis have gained all that they need to know how to defeat the missiles(_those being sold to egypt specifically and the model in general_).

Also, the AH-64 does not change the equation for Israel in the reigion that much. And the US was more interested(as proven) in allowing Egypt to control separatists as and when needed. Israel is not the only threat to Egypt as the Palestinians with Hamas are also taken as a threat.



Donatello said:


> I meant that if PAF can field a missile comparable to AIM9X on say JF-17 which will form the backbone of PAF fleet, then US would would be compelled to offer AIM9X for F-16s, as PAF already would have gotten that capability on other platforms. AIM120 came as PAF got SD-10 for JF-17s. Remember US did not offer AIM120 to Egypt. And i am sure PAF would have requested AIM9X already, just like the AGM88 HARM which was denied.



Such a missile was in the works from either SA or Brazil. However, it may be that the Indian Lobby in both nations has now gained the upper hand(_via direct investment by India in the economies of these nations_) that the government pushes the private firms in these two countries not to sell any crucial equipment to Pakistan.

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## VCheng

Oscar said:


> The 120C is now being sold to egypt as the Israelis have gained all that they need to know how to defeat the missiles(those being sold to egypt specifically and the model in general).



As is the rule these days, all sorts of "magic" is possible in software.


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## SQ8

Informant said:


> If i recall correctly we have complete access, it is just fluff propagated through media. No such thing as not having codes. Do we have the capability to produce weaponry is another matter.


No we do not have the source codes. To integrate a new weapon on the F-16 of today requires access to the software and mission computer. That task is only carried out by authorized modification firms that are verified by both the OEM and the US government. 
examples of such firms apart from the OEM LockMart are BAE, IAI, TAI and Northrop Grumman. 

So if the PAF wants to integrate a new missile, it has to put in a request to the US FMS program, then to LockMart.. and then to its desired contractor for the upgrade. In the past , the PAF has integrated weapons on its F-16A/B fleet but this was very analogue in nature with a lot less digital or software modifications being done.



VCheng said:


> As is the rule these days, all sorts of "magic" is possible in software.


That it is, but the US is smart in its selective software screening. Sometimes it lets particular nations have what they want to ensure that US calculations and desires for outcomes to conflicts are met in the region.


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## VCheng

Oscar said:


> ...........
> 
> That it is, but the US is smart in its selective software screening. Sometimes it lets particular nations have what they want to ensure that US calculations and desires for outcomes to conflicts are met in the region.



Agreed. Whatever serves the national interests, regional or global, short-term or long-term.


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Agreed. Whatever serves the national interests, regional or global, short-term or long-term.


After all, Clinton _promised_ Israel the F-22.. but more calculating heads decided that it was not the right thing to let loose. Lets say strikes on certain nations would have been carried out much sooner had Israel been given the Raptor.

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## VCheng

Oscar said:


> After all, Clinton _promised_ Israel the F-22.. but more calculating heads decided that it was not the right thing to let loose. Lets say strikes on certain nations would have been carried out much sooner had Israel been given the Raptor.



Clinton wanted a legacy of a MidEast deal so bad he made promises he could not keep.

Back to the topic, any news about the Congressional approval of transferring the Jordanian F-16s to PAF?


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## Luftwaffe

@Oscar Is there any link egypt is getting AIM-120Cs.

I checked defenseindustrydaily dot com but I couldn't find any information related to egypt AIMC order.


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## Informant

Oscar said:


> The 120C is now being sold to egypt as the Israelis have gained all that they need to know how to defeat the missiles(_those being sold to egypt specifically and the model in general_).



Whoops that skipped me, when did this deal go through. 

Had Israel been handed over the Raptor, who do you think apart from Iran would've been visited by them?


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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> The 120C is now being sold to egypt as the Israelis have gained all that they need to know how to defeat the missiles(_those being sold to egypt specifically and the model in general_).
> 
> Also, the AH-64 does not change the equation for Israel in the reigion that much. And the US was more interested(as proven) in allowing Egypt to control separatists as and when needed. Israel is not the only threat to Egypt as the Palestinians with Hamas are also taken as a threat.
> 
> 
> 
> Such a missile was in the works from either SA or Brazil. However, it may be that the Indian Lobby in both nations has now gained the upper hand(_via direct investment by India in the economies of these nations_) that the government pushes the private firms in these two countries not to sell any crucial equipment to Pakistan.



That is true, but the MAR-1 deal did go through.


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## SQ8

Luftwaffe said:


> @Oscar Is there any link egypt is getting AIM-120Cs.
> 
> I checked defenseindustrydaily dot com but I couldn't find any information related to egypt AIMC order.


I believe the restrictions were lifted. I cant remember where I read it, whether it was some blog or claimed by a member here. The aircraft are ready to fire the AIM-120 though, that much is there in the DSCA



VCheng said:


> Clinton wanted a legacy of a MidEast deal so bad he made promises he could not keep.
> 
> Back to the topic, any news about the Congressional approval of transferring the Jordanian F-16s to PAF?


Nothing, odd considering that most deals are announced _after_ the approval has been given. Perhaps the Pakistani media may have broken the back of the PAF this time by its verbal diarrhoea.

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## Luftwaffe

Oscar said:


> I believe the restrictions were lifted. I cant remember where I read it, whether it was some blog or claimed by a member here. The aircraft are ready to fire the AIM-120 though, that much is there in the DSCA



U.S. agrees not to sell AMRAAM to Egypt

From the above article..



> Earlier this year, the administration relayed an informal request to Congress to sell the AMRAAM to Egypt. Several senior House and Senate members expressed their opposition to the proposed sale.



But according to 2011-2013 deals, with Block 50/52 sales to egypt and other weapons and equipment no AIM-120C has been sold.

Egypt: More F-16s on Hold


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## SQ8

Luftwaffe said:


> U.S. agrees not to sell AMRAAM to Egypt
> 
> From the above article..
> 
> 
> 
> But according to 2011-2013 deals, with Block 50/52 sales to egypt and other weapons and equipment no AIM-120C has been sold.
> 
> Egypt: More F-16s on Hold


In either case, considering that the Obama administration was pro-morsi.. and that currently Egypt is systematic restructuring/upheaval.. I would not put much faith into US defence deals going through.


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## VCheng

Oscar said:


> Nothing, odd considering that most deals are announced after the approval has been given. Perhaps the Pakistani media may have broken the back of the PAF this time by its verbal diarrhoea.



The Jordanian deal was never announced by any non-Pakistani source as far as I can remember.


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> The Jordanian deal was never announced by any non-Pakistani source as far as I can remember.


That is true, but it was announced none the less in fairly _detailed _manner. That means it was/is in the works. Perhaps a journo with connections heard about it.. and decided to let the cat out of the bag.

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## Donatello

VCheng said:


> The Jordanian deal was never announced by any non-Pakistani source as far as I can remember.


Alan Warnes did tweet.


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## That Guy

Informant said:


> Quit it man, F-16s have no restriction to not fly with Chinese planes. Not on Chinese soil or by Chinese technicians. That's it, we are free to do whatever we want to. That guy you're ralking to is Ex-PAF Pilot Officer. Come on man just quit it.


I said test, not just fly together. God damn it, why doesn't anyone fucking read my comments properly? People keep picking on a few words, or one comment and ignore the rest of what I said.


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## VCheng

Oscar said:


> That is true, but it was announced none the less in fairly _detailed _manner. That means it was/is in the works. Perhaps a journo with connections heard about it.. and decided to let the cat out of the bag.



Oh it is in the works alright, but not a done deal yet.


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## SQ8

VCheng said:


> Oh it is in the works alright, but not a done deal yet.


Without congressional approval or the Presidents override.. Nope. it isn't.


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## nomi007

Oscar said:


> After all, Clinton _promised_ Israel the F-22.. but more calculating heads decided that it was not the right thing to let loose. Lets say strikes on certain nations would have been carried out much sooner had Israel been given the Raptor.


bro any source


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## VCheng

nomi007 said:


> bro any source




F-22 Promised By Clinton May Be Too Costly For Israel ? And For U.S. | CNS News

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## think@best

Waiting & waiting......... to see jordan F-16 in PAF colors, i think it will take more 2-3 months


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## Viper0011.

think@best said:


> Waiting & waiting......... to see jordan F-16 in PAF colors, i think it will take more 2-3 months



Do you or anyone else know the status on the MLU's? I know there were about 55 MLU kits released....but are the older -16's MLU'd already?


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## fatman17

orangzaib said:


> Do you or anyone else know the status on the MLU's? I know there were about 55 MLU kits released....but are the older -16's MLU'd already?


 
atleast half of the original / surviving 32 F-16A/B's have been MLU. rest in progress. further the 13 F-16A/B from Jordan would need a replacement of the powerplant to come to PAF commonality.

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> atleast half of the original / surviving 32 F-16A/B's have been MLU. rest in progress. further the 13 F-16A/B from Jordan would need a replacement of the powerplant to come to PAF commonality.



Are the Jordanian F-16 Avionics up to the PAF (MLU) level?

Also what about the 14 EDA ones that PAF received?


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## nomi007

UAEAF F-16F and RJAF F-16AM








Donatello said:


> Are the Jordanian F-16 Avionics up to the PAF (MLU) level?
> 
> Also what about the 14 EDA ones that PAF received?


*yes *







its tai report

December 11, 2006, 8:51 AM
Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) has announced that it will modernize the 17 used F-16s that were previously provided to the Kingdom of Jordan by the U.S. This upgrade program will begin in April 2006 and will involve installation of Falcon-UP, Falcon Star and other Lockheed Martin mid-life upgrade (MLU) modifications of these aircraft. TAI and the Royal Jordanian Air Force have recently signed the final agreements for this program, which will have these F-16s modernized at TAI’s facilities through October 2009, when the last of these upgraded aircraft will be delivered back to the Jordanians.

Turkish Aerospace Modernizes Used F-16s | Aviation International News


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## nomi007

*PURPOSE OF POSTING THIS IMAGE IS THAT*
*HOPE PAF will try to get 24+ mirage 2005-9 from uae in future*
*which are more power full than our current inventory*
admin plz don't ban me


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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 24184
> *PURPOSE OF POSTING THIS IMAGE IS THAT*
> *HOPE PAF will try to get 24+ mirage 2005-9 from uae in future*
> *which are more power full than our current inventory*
> admin plz don't ban me


 haan sari sunya ka kabaar akhta ker lo ustaad

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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 24184
> *PURPOSE OF POSTING THIS IMAGE IS THAT*
> *HOPE PAF will try to get 24+ mirage 2005-9 from uae in future*
> *which are more power full than our current inventory*
> admin plz don't ban me


 haan sari sunya ka kabaar akhta ker lo ustaad


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## nomi007

Imran Khan said:


> haan sari sunya ka kabaar akhta ker lo ustaad


imran bhai 1st check the mirage 2005-9 than reply


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## RAMPAGE

nomi007 said:


> imran bhai 1st check the mirage 2005-9 than reply


A beautiful bird indeed but our thunders are better still.


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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> imran bhai 1st check the mirage 2005-9 than reply


 bhai we disscussed it till death as i remember should we back on same topic ? its dead issue forget it bhai once forever

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Are the Jordanian F-16 Avionics up to the PAF (MLU) level?
> 
> Also what about the 14 EDA ones that PAF received?


 
no idea about avionics, but 14 PAF F-16A/B released by USAF (original peace-gate) will be MLU'ed.


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## Windjammer

nomi007 said:


> imran bhai 1st check the mirage 2005-9 than reply



Although a very capable aircraft, the Mirage-2000 is only operated by some half a dozen Air forces compared to around 30 F-16 operators, more over customers like Greece which fields both types ended up going for more F-16s rather than the French machine.,

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## Munir

The French are champion in getting every penny you have once you buy their aircraft... I think PAF did a remarkable job in buying everything from everyone to keep decent number of Mirages in the air. Besides that they are second to none in maintenance and some parts making of the Mirage 3/5. You really want to go further and buy another plane which is produced in small numbers, in a few nations still in service, your opponent has it for decades and... if you want to upgrade it it will cost you more then a new Rafale... Banning you is not the question but friendly asking you how on earth you come to your advice...

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## airmarshal

If you see the four protrusions in front of the canopy of an older F-16 model, its MLUed. Thats Common Configuration Implementation Program (CCIP) and is covered under Falcon STAR in MLU planes. 

In common parlance, those antennas are called 'bird cutters'.


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## Munir

Wallpaper for some...

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## Munir

To be transferred to PAF... Jordanian F16...

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## Munir

PAF owns the sky...

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## Neptune

Luftwaffe said:


> Please yaar! Turkey is getting rid of F-5s and we suspect they would get Kai T-50 in the future after they replace F-5s/T-38..T-38 some of them are going under upgrades.
> 
> The chances of JF-17 for Jordan are next to zilch zero unless there is a proven deal, their future could be Block 50+/52 and or BAE Typhoons.




All F-5 aircraft were retired from the service by early 2013. Only 16 are in active service as they operate at 134th FİLO "Turkish Stars". The demo team

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## Luftwaffe

Neptune said:


> All F-5 aircraft were retired from the service by early 2013. Only 16 are in active service as they operate at 134th FİLO "Turkish Stars". The demo team



Point was F-5s going out something new would come in T-38s would give a little room for few years say 8 yrs.


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## VCheng

Munir said:


> To be transferred to PAF... Jordanian F16...



As yet, there is no approval announced from Washington that would indicate that this transfer will indeed take place.


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## fatman17

VCheng said:


> As yet, there is no approval announced from Washington that would indicate that this transfer will indeed take place.


 
govt approval has been granted (quietly).

Pakistan to receive Jordanian F-16s.
the PAF is set to receive a squadron of former RJAF LM F-16 fighting falcons. the US govt. approved sale will include 13 block15 standard F-16's, comprising 12 single-seat F-16A's and a single twin-seat F-16B.
the PAF will induct these fighters into its existing 63- strong fleet of F-16s (which includes a mix of A,B,C,D variants) and may modify their engine bays and install F100-PW-220E poweplants, which are more reliable and efficient than the original F100-PW-200 turbofans.
AFM page 20-April 2014

its a country-to-country sales with NOC from the OEM (US)

its PK funds also. no FMS

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## Thorough Pro

Why would any air force in its right mind go for a new already outdated platform in such limited numbers? instead why not go for something that you already have? 



nomi007 said:


> View attachment 24184
> *PURPOSE OF POSTING THIS IMAGE IS THAT*
> *HOPE PAF will try to get 24+ mirage 2005-9 from uae in future*
> *which are more power full than our current inventory*
> admin plz don't ban me


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## fatman17

Thorough Pro said:


> Why would any air force in its right mind go for a new already outdated platform in such limited numbers? instead why not go for something that you already have?


 
why?.....we dont have Mirage2K


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## Windjammer

Munir said:


> PAF owns the sky...



This be a close up of the same. ??

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## Thorough Pro

Yes! and we acquired them when they were relatively new and we acquired them in good numbers. Acquiring only 24 Mirage 2000 would not make any sense when they have been replaced by newer platforms. However acquiring more F-16 is more sensible, we have30+ years of experience of operating them, we have in-house expertise of repairing/maintaing them, commonality of spares and weapons, bla bla bla



fatman17 said:


> why?.....we dont have Mirage2K


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Windjammer said:


> This be a close up of the same. ??
> 
> 
> View attachment 24396


what is this mysterious milky-white cloudy-like white-smoky air-fumes coming out constantly from the combat aircraft flying seemingly a close-air-suport combat air patrol mission in very high region of the sky in the vast aerial frontier of the airspace of the beloved homeland of our IsLamic republic of PakisTan ... ?


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## Neptune

Luftwaffe said:


> Point was F-5s going out something new would come in T-38s would give a little room for few years say 8 yrs.



Any other jet trainings besides T38 on PAF inventory?

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## Chak Bamu

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> what is this mysterious milky-white cloudy-like white-smoky air-fumes coming out constantly from the combat aircraft flying seemingly a close-air-suport combat air patrol mission in very high region of the sky in the vast aerial frontier of the airspace of the beloved homeland of our IsLamic republic of PakisTan ... ?



These are vortices, that being low pressure have a lower temperature, causing condensation of water vapors and thus appearing as "milky-white cloudy-like white smoky air-fumes" as you so eloquently put it.

These vortices are a good thing and a mark of good design. JF-17 has them as well. That is why it always appears as though it is wearing a 'dopatta' - looking like a deadly baji.

Being an aeronautical engineer, @Munir can tell you more about it.

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## Windjammer

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> what is this mysterious milky-white cloudy-like white-smoky air-fumes coming out constantly from the combat aircraft flying seemingly a close-air-suport combat air patrol mission in very high region of the sky in the vast aerial frontier of the airspace of the beloved homeland of our IsLamic republic of PakisTan ... ?


But this one is not flying a CAS or a CAP mission, nor is it flying at a high altitude neither in the Pakistan air space....which only proves that when a high performance jet executes tight manoeuvres it generates mysterious milky-white cloudy-like white-smoky air-fumes also called vortex.

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## Armstrong

Neptune said:


> Any other jet trainings besides T38 on PAF inventory?


 
I don't think that the PAF has any T-38 in service; they've got the K-8 & the T-37 for the intermediate jet trainer role & so far as I know the PAF doesn't have anything between an intermediate jet trainer & the two-seat version of a combat aircraft of operational conversion training !  

So far as I've been able to gather the PAF operates a two-tier system of training with a basic traininer like the Mushaks (MFI-17) being the first tier & an intermediate jet trainer like the T-37 & the K-8 being the second tier before moving on to the F-7Ps & PGs (Chinese Mig-21s variants) then to Mirages & then to F-16s & then to the Jf-17s (as an interim measure so that only experienced pilots take on the first few squadrons of the aircraft) with the twin versions of all of them coming before their single versions !

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## Rajput_Pakistani

Armstrong said:


> I don't think that the PAF has any T-38 in service; they've got the K-8 & the T-37 for the intermediate jet trainer role & so far as I know the PAF doesn't have anything between an intermediate jet trainer & the two-seat version of a combat aircraft of operational conversion training !
> 
> So far as I've been able to gather the PAF operates a two-tier system of training with a basic traininer like the Mushaks (MFI-17) being the first tier & an intermediate jet trainer like the T-37 & the K-8 being the second tier before moving on to the F-7Ps & PGs (Chinese Mig-21s variants) then to Mirages & then to F-16s & then to the Jf-17s (as an interim measure so that only experienced pilots take on the first few squadrons of the aircraft) with the twin versions of all of them coming before their single versions !


@Armstrong 
PAF uses FT-5 in their Fighter Conversion Unit also. I have seen the video also, cant find the link right now.

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## maxpayne

Windjammer said:


> Although a very capable aircraft, the Mirage-2000 is only operated by some half a dozen Air forces compared to around 30 F-16 operators, more over customers like Greece which fields both types ended up going for more F-16s rather than the French machine.,


Mirage-2000 capability was also shown by recent Turkish F-16 shot down by Greece Mirage-2000.


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## Zarvan

Hey Guys have those F-16 from Jordan arrived or not ? 
@Aeronaut @Oscar @nuclearpak @RazPaK @fatman17 @nomi007 @Chak Bamu


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## VCheng

fatman17 said:


> govt approval has been granted (quietly).
> 
> Pakistan to receive Jordanian F-16s.
> the PAF is set to receive a squadron of former RJAF LM F-16 fighting falcons. the US govt. approved sale will include 13 block15 standard F-16's, comprising 12 single-seat F-16A's and a single twin-seat F-16B.
> the PAF will induct these fighters into its existing 63- strong fleet of F-16s (which includes a mix of A,B,C,D variants) and may modify their engine bays and install F100-PW-220E poweplants, which are more reliable and efficient than the original F100-PW-200 turbofans.
> AFM page 20-April 2014
> 
> its a country-to-country sales with NOC from the OEM (US)
> 
> its PK funds also. no FMS



Any such arms deal must follow Congressional processes. Can you please point out the official US source for this approval? Thanks.


----------



## Windjammer

maxpayne said:


> Mirage-2000 capability was also shown by recent Turkish F-16 shot down by Greece Mirage-2000.


We are going off topic but there's a lot of controversy surrounding this incident from F-16 mechanical failure to the pilot being an Israeli.



> It was later determined (and kept secret) that the downed pilot who survived from the crash was in fact an Israeli pilot (Osman Cýceklý) dispached from IDFAF. The second pilot (TUAF flight officer) failed to eject in time due to the missile hit and was killed. The downed pilot was rescued 30 min. after shot down by a HAF AB-205 SAR helo (from 358th search and rescue squadron). The pilot received immediate medical care and returned a few days later to Turkey with a HAF C-130 flight.

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## Neptune

Windjammer said:


> We are going off topic but there's a lot of controversy surrounding this incident from F-16 mechanical failure to the pilot being an Israeli.



It was a mech failure. The downed pilot was an Israeli officer in exchange. Just like the one we had with PAF

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## Luftwaffe

Neptune said:


> Any other jet trainings besides T38 on PAF inventory?



Hi, Let get back to Thread topic but before I do @Neptune again point was someone mentioned JF-17 dual seat for TuAF, so my reply was to that member about F-5s and their soon [or phased out already] phase out and any future advance trainer could be either Kai T-50 or Italian M346 Master once T-38 reaches the point to be replaced probably in less than a decade...

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Neptune said:


> It was a mech failure. The downed pilot was an Israeli officer in exchange. Just like the one we had with PAF



Osman cycekly sounds like a Turkish name... ?

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> @Armstrong
> PAF uses FT-5 in their Fighter Conversion Unit also. I have seen the video also, cant find the link right now.



They are getting replaced by K-8Ps:






Here is the video you are talking about:

Awesome PAF FT-5 Footage

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## Neptune

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Osman cycekly sounds like a Turkish name... ?



Probably it's either a made up name for him, or he was just one of the jews serving in Turkish Armed Forces

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Neptune said:


> Probably it's either a made up name for him, or he was just one of the jews serving in Turkish Armed Forces



There is also a video of his interview from the hospital... heard the f-16s were unarmed aswell..


----------



## Neptune

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> There is also a video of his interview from the hospital... heard the f-16s were unarmed aswell..



what? can u post the link


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

Neptune said:


> what? can u post the link








Found it on WAFF.

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## Neptune

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Found it on WAFF.



Where are his patches? (Country flag, Sq patch, name, blood type..etc)


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Neptune said:


> Where are his patches? (Country flag, Sq patch, name, blood type..etc)



Dunno bro... its from a greek hospital..

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Windjammer said:


> But this one is not flying a CAS or a CAP mission, nor is it flying at a high altitude neither in the Pakistan air space....which only proves that when a high performance jet executes tight manoeuvres it generates mysterious milky-white cloudy-like white-smoky air-fumes also called vortex.


bro. i was just being a little naughty ... seeing you after a long time , i thought to have a slight fun with you just for celebrating your late re-arrival here on PDF ...



Chak Bamu said:


> These are vortices, that being low pressure have a lower temperature, causing condensation of water vapors and thus appearing as "milky-white cloudy-like white smoky air-fumes" as you so eloquently put it.
> 
> These vortices are a good thing and a mark of good design. JF-17 has them as well. That is why it always appears as though it is wearing a 'dopatta' - looking like a deadly baji.
> 
> Being an aeronautical engineer, @Munir can tell you more about it.


so nice of you dear for your effort n time ...

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## Imran Khan

Windjammer said:


> *The fight is on*....._*video grabs from 4 Vs 4 F-16 Engagement.*_
> @Aeronaut @Oscar.


 aik bhi foto na khula janab


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## Windjammer

Imran Khan said:


> aik bhi foto na khula janab



Realy, i can see them all.....ok give me a minute.

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## Luftwaffe

Windjammer said:


> Realy, i can see them all.....ok give me a minute.



I can't see uran tashtari, can you give us external links.

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## Windjammer

*The Fight is on*......._*Video grabs of a 4 Vs 4 F-16 engagement.*_

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## SQ8

Interesting screengrabs(if a little bland as the really interesting parts are cut out for security reasons ) 

@Windjammer 
Will be travelling to ISB next month, may meet up with the gentleman whose contact I showed you


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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> Interesting screengrabs(if a little bland as the really interesting parts are cut out for security reasons )
> 
> @Windjammer
> Will be travelling to ISB next month, may meet up with the gentleman whose contact I showed you


@Oscar
Well you know the score...
I believe you are in the US now....PM me your contact no as i can't seem to access the ''in box'' feature.
Now that meeting alone be worth a blank cheque.


----------



## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> @Oscar
> Well you know the score...
> I believe you are in the US now....PM me your contact no as i can't seem to access the ''in box'' feature.
> Now that meeting alone be worth a blank cheque.


Ill PM you the details of what is currently going on.


----------



## Bratva

What F-16's carrying underneath? Jamming pod or a drop tank?


----------



## Stealth

Windjammer said:


> *The Fight is on*......._*Video grabs of a 4 Vs 4 F-16 engagement.*_



Please share the video link


----------



## Windjammer

mafiya said:


> What F-16's carrying underneath? Jamming pod or a drop tank?


Fuel tanks on the centreline. 


Stealth said:


> Please share the video link



Not possible dude.


----------



## Stealth

Windjammer said:


> Fuel tanks on the centreline.
> 
> 
> Not possible dude.


not possible :S tu phir tasverain b daal kar ahsaan nahe karna tha... lol


----------



## Windjammer

Stealth said:


> not possible :S tu phir tasverain b daal kar ahsaan nahe karna tha... lol



Koi ahsaan nai bahi.....please read post ¬ 7314 by @Oscar.

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## Munir



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## nomi007

stealth coating of f-16 of paf


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## PiyaraPakistan

nomi007 said:


> stealth coating of f-16 of paf


but flag is showing different pic bro.

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## nomi007

PiyaraPakistan said:


> but flag is showing different pic bro.


update ur self


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## nomi007

mlu cockpit of ex-rjaf f-16

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## Luftwaffe

nomi007 said:


> stealth coating of f-16 of paf



Did you mean Digital Camouflage.

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## Indus Falcon

Luftwaffe said:


> Did you mean Digital Camouflage.


I think that is what he meant!



PiyaraPakistan said:


> but flag is showing different pic bro.


I concur how can you call jordanian flags PAF?

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## VCheng

Abu Nasar said:


> I think that is what he meant!
> 
> 
> I concur how can you call jordanian flags PAF?



The Jordanian F-16 deal is still pending Washington's approval. It is not a done deal yet.

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## Black Eagle 90

When PAF getting their 14 F-16s from US and may be some additional F-16s A/B Block-15s from US and how many US has these F-16s A/B Block-15s. Also Pakistan should get 21 F-16s from Venuezvella.


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## nomi007

making of AIM-120

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## Windjammer

nomi007 said:


> making of AIM-120


Up close and personal.

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## nomi007



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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Munir

nomi007 said:


> making of AIM-120



AIM-9X

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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> making of AIM-120



 aim-9


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## Munir

This plane, the good old 728, was doing display in Turkey...






I just cannot believe I sat in this plane.

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## Donatello

Munir said:


> This plane, the good old 728, was doing display in Turkey...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just cannot believe I sat in this plane.



The F-16 seems way big over here.


----------



## Munir

Donatello said:


> The F-16 seems way big over here.



Please compare..

PICT0046 F-16D Thunderbirds ground crew right front m.jpg


----------



## Donatello

Munir said:


> Please compare..
> 
> PICT0046 F-16D Thunderbirds ground crew right front m.jpg



Yup.. It's pretty big for a light aircraft. JF-17 seems way smaller due to it's low height


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## gambit

Munir said:


> This plane, the good old 728, was doing display in Turkey...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just cannot believe I sat in this plane.


The best pose for anyone -- more like any guy -- in front of a fighter, or a motorcycle, is *NOT* to face camera directly but to stand facing slightly of angle to one side, hold the brain bucket casually by its straps in one hand, and jacket or gear on the other hand. No shades. Chicks want to see the eyes. Smile but do not show your pearlies, and do not smirk.

Lower angle on the camera, something like below the waist and looking up, this makes the aircraft (or the bike) larger and more imposing in perspective, but *YOU* are master of it. Aircrafts are tricky because of their sizes, so photogs usually have only partials of them, usually the cockpit regions, in the pics so as not to take attention away from the people. Try to minimize background clutter such as buildings or trees, and have as much blue sky as possible. The blue sky and blue sea are deeply and subtly psychological, representing escape and freedom, hence, the lower camera position looking upward for airplane shoots.

I got all that yrs ago from a retired Msgt who was a USAF photog...

STILL PHOTOGRAPHY SPECIALIST - airforce.com

He went on and had a good post military career traveling all over the world, working on commissions, for companies like GE or Boeing taking photos of everything, from people to wind turbines to buildings to jets, before back problems forced him to retire for real.

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## Munir

I agree @gambit There is a big set of rules. Just snapping a picture is waste of time.






5812842390_7e007c9f7e_b.jpg

5812410303_e1e7a20f82_b.jpg

It must be a kind of invitation to look around and become part of the picture...

A picture is good when tons of people use it as a background picture on their computer. Nothing less.

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## gambit

Munir said:


> I agree @gambit There is a big set of rules. Just snapping a picture is waste of time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5812842390_7e007c9f7e_b.jpg
> 
> 5812410303_e1e7a20f82_b.jpg
> 
> It must be a kind of invitation to look around and become part of the picture...
> 
> A picture is good when tons of people use it as a background picture on their computer. Nothing less.


I wish I have good pics of my time back then. The best camera I had was a Minolta X-700, which I doubt the kids today know what 'film' really mean.  Anyway, I never fully exploited its capabilities and learned how to take good pics. I look at the pics today by my friends with their phone cameras and I am fully embarrassed at the crap I have.

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## Munir

gambit said:


> I wish I have good pics of my time back then. The best camera I had was a Minolta X-700, which I doubt the kids today know what 'film' really mean.  Anyway, I never fully exploited its capabilities and learned how to take good pics. I look at the pics today by my friends with their phone cameras and I am fully embarrassed at the crap I have.



I had some very nice pictures with my Canon 50E. With huge lens sometimes pilots stopped to let me take some pics. But that was more then 20-25 years ago. Now I am old and have only Canon Ixus 5Mp pocket camera. I do not even use the zoom! Still the experience counts. I have no ability to make nice pics during air displays but I have lovely pics of the flightlines. I learned that you just have to wait some minutes and maybe hours to have that picture everyone wants. And even with digital cams you have to understand focus, light, composition and all those rules you mentioned! If I could have now a top end camera and a2a time then a dream would come true

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## Luftwaffe

Munir said:


> I had some very nice pictures with my Canon 50E. With huge lens sometimes pilots stopped to let me take some pics. But that was more then 20-25 years ago. Now I am old and have only Canon Ixus 5Mp pocket camera. I do not even use the zoom! Still the experience counts. I have no ability to make nice pics during air displays but I have lovely pics of the flightlines. I learned that you just have to wait some minutes and maybe hours to have that picture everyone wants. And even with digital cams you have to understand focus, light, composition and all those rules you mentioned! If I could have now a top end camera and a2a time then a dream would come true



Post whatever you have members here love any and all aviation photography.


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## Munir

One more for @gambit 

I was sitting under the wings of the 728. Looking at the 726 being readied with fuel tanks. Just there probably watching a plane that buzzed extremely low over our house in Gujar Khan some decades ago...

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## gambit

Munir said:


> One more for @gambit
> 
> I was sitting under the wings of the 728. Looking at the 726 being readied with fuel tanks. Just there probably watching a plane that buzzed extremely low over our house in Gujar Khan some decades ago...


That is the kind of good day with clear blue sky to take ground pics of airplanes, no matter what kind. Those days are typical at MacDill but we had a 'wing king' who was a hard *** about having unauthorized cameras on the flightline, mostly because SOCOM and CENTCOM HQs there. I think only Edwards and Nellis got more generals assigned than MacDill.

That Dash-60 bring back unpleasant memory. The -60 is used to start jets and have a heavy spring loaded tow bar. One time, I helped move a -60 and the tow bar slipped out of my oily hand and smacked me on the jaw. I got knocked out and my friends had to carried my *** off the flightline.

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## Munir

gambit said:


> That is the kind of good day with clear blue sky to take ground pics of airplanes, no matter what kind. Those days are typical at MacDill but we had a 'wing king' who was a hard *** about having unauthorized cameras on the flightline, mostly because SOCOM and CENTCOM HQs there. I think only Edwards and Nellis got more generals assigned than MacDill.
> 
> That Dash-60 bring back unpleasant memory. The -60 is used to start jets and have a heavy spring loaded tow bar. One time, I helped move a -60 and the tow bar slipped out of my oily hand and smacked me on the jaw. I got knocked out and my friends had to carried my *** off the flightline.



Yep, I really understand what that means... Unauthorized camera's... It makes certain people extremely nervous.


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## gambit

Munir said:


>


After _Top Gun_, every guy and gal authorized to wear a flightsuit had their sleeves pushed up their arms. I saw that when I was back in Upper Heyford (UK). Our wing commander put a stop to that immediately, but our Brits friends on base went that way for a long time until the fad died. Their CO made no bones about it.


----------



## rockstarIN

gambit said:


> The best pose for anyone -- more like any guy -- in front of a fighter, or a motorcycle, is *NOT* to face camera directly but to stand facing slightly of angle to one side, hold the brain bucket casually by its straps in one hand, and jacket or gear on the other hand. No shades. Chicks want to see the eyes. Smile but do not show your pearlies, and do not smirk.
> 
> .



Can you post a sample here please.


----------



## gambit

rockstarIN said:


> Can you post a sample here please.


From me ? I have no such pics of meself. Wish I have, though...


----------



## rockstarIN

gambit said:


> From me ? I have no such pics of meself. Wish I have, though...




Its okay if you do not have one of yourself, pls post any in the pose you mentioned in the earlier post.


----------



## nana41

Donatello said:


> The F-16 seems way big over here.


Its un-stealthy side of F-16,and in front is MUNIR`s Dummy.....


----------



## fatman17

time to start F-16 discussions 3. this thread has been polluted....


----------



## Windjammer



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## TOPGUN

Windjammer said:


>




A really awesome pic thx for sharing bro


----------



## SQ8

Windjammer said:


>



Who warranted the escort of 4 F-16s?? 

One person who was escorted like that was former UN secretary general *Kurt Waldheim, * who was on his way over Pakistan when he was declared under arrest by the ICJ I think back in 91-92 was it??


----------



## Informant

Oscar said:


> Who warranted the escort of 4 F-16s??
> 
> One person who was escorted like that was former UN secretary general *Kurt Waldheim, * who was on his way over Pakistan when he was declared under arrest by the ICJ I think back in 91-92 was it??



How could *you* not know?


----------



## SQ8

Informant said:


> How could *you* not know?


How could I not know what I am supposed to know if I dont know what it is that I am supposed to not not know?

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## Informant

Oscar said:


> How could I not know what I am supposed to know if I dont know what it is that I am supposed to not not know?



I'm a bit baked to compute that, but i will try. So here it goes. There is something you don't know that you are supposed to know. Yet you don't know what it is you don't know yet i know that you dont know what you should know but you dont?

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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> Who warranted the escort of 4 F-16s??
> 
> One person who was escorted like that was former UN secretary general *Kurt Waldheim, * who was on his way over Pakistan when he was declared under arrest by the ICJ I think back in 91-92 was it??



@Oscar, come on dude, i know you can do better than that......the watermark and Lear-jet (?) in PAF colours are a big give away.


----------



## SQ8

Informant said:


> I'm a bit baked to compute that, but i will try. So here it goes. There is something you don't know that you are supposed to know. Yet you don't know what it is you don't know yet i know that you dont know what you should know but you dont?





Windjammer said:


> @Oscar, come on dude, i know you can do better than that......the watermark and Lear-jet (?) in PAF colours are a big give away.



The Gulfstream IV might either be carrying the PM or President if it is being escorted like that. I doubt the air chief warrants such an escort.


----------



## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> The Gulfstream IV might either be carrying the PM or President if it is being escorted like that. I doubt the air chief warrants such an escort.



Farewell escort to ACM TANVIR MAHMMOD AHMED NI(M) HI(M) SBT 0N 18 MARCH 2009.

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## Munir

My guess... Squadron leaders of Griffins and Arrows in the duals...


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## Windjammer

Munir said:


> My guess... Squadron leaders of Griffins and Arrows in the duals...



Yes most likely senior crews manning the farewell flight and ironically the F-16s are armed.

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## Informant

G - IV is old now, it's the time for G - VI now.


----------



## nomi007

aj phir TTP yaad aa ge gifts rae ready for deliver

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## Windjammer



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## Side-Winder

Windjammer said:


>




Red Flag?


----------



## Windjammer

Side-Winder said:


> Red Flag?



Roger.


----------



## Black Eagle 90

nomi007 said:


> aj phir TTP yaad aa ge gifts rae ready for deliver



Block-52 suits more to PAF then any other country. I think US should supply them with their own Block-52s and replace earlier with F-35s.


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## nomi007

Black Eagle 90 said:


> Block-52 suits more to PAF then any other country. I think US should supply them with their own Block-52s and replace earlier with F-35s.


usa is not using bl-52

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## Dazzler

nomi007 said:


> usa is not using bl-52



USAF = standard blk 50-52 (not for export)

blk 52+ (export)


----------



## Munir

Dazzler said:


> USAF = standard blk 50-52 (not for export)
> 
> blk 52+ (export)



My friend... Even Wiki pedia has the details (which are correct)

The first Block 50/52 F-16 was delivered in late 1991; the aircraft are equipped with improved GPS/INS, and the aircraft can carry a further batch of advanced missiles: the AGM-88 HARM missile, JDAM, JSOW and WCMD.[6] Block 50 aircraft are powered by the F110-GE-129 while the Block 52 jets use the F100-PW-229.

Plus
This variant, which is also known as the Block 50/52+. Its main differences are the addition of support for conformal fuel tanks (CFTs), a dorsal spine compartment, the APG-68(V9) radar, an On-Board Oxygen Generation (OBOGS) system and a JHMCS helmet.

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## Luftwaffe

Black Eagle 90 said:


> Block-52 suits more to PAF then any other country. I think US should supply them with their own Block-52s and replace earlier with F-35s.



Nishan_101, Some of their fleet is going under modernization to cut costs due to delays in F-35s...service life extension upgrades are underway, like AESA radar upgrades and other tweaks.

US would sell you 500 F-16s if you have:
- Money for them hard cash
- If you have excellent relations with them and you don't play games.

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## fatman17

Quote of the Day
Quote of a Chinese WX man during the WW-II: *Ceiling and visibility obscured by darkness*. -- Unknown


----------



## Neptune

Dazzler said:


> USAF = standard blk 50-52 (not for export)
> 
> blk 52+ (export)




Thé "+" means an external addition to the aircraft. EFTs and that external avionics suite. What you meant is probably the F-16CJ/DJ variants. But those variants are also operated by IDFAF and TURAF with EFTs, new avionics suites, LANTIRN added. At some of them LANTIRN only.

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## nomi007

ex-paf hardcore eagles visit

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## Edevelop



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## Windjammer

*Here's a clearer image of the one nomi 007 posted earlier, some interesting gadgets in the back ground. *

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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> *Here's a clearer image of the one nomi 007 posted earlier, some interesting gadgets in the back ground. *



PAF Shahbaz?



Neptune said:


> Thé "+" means an external addition to the aircraft. EFTs and that external avionics suite. What you meant is probably the F-16CJ/DJ variants. But those variants are also operated by IDFAF and TURAF with EFTs, new avionics suites, LANTIRN added. At some of them LANTIRN only.



Whats the basic difference between block 52+ and F-16I?


----------



## Neptune

truthseeker2010 said:


> PAF Shahbaz?
> 
> 
> 
> Whats the basic difference between block 52+ and F-16I?



Engine, Israeli weapons integration, HUD and half of the avionics are Israeli made.

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## truthseeker2010

Neptune said:


> Engine, Israeli weapons integration, HUD and half of the avionics are Israeli made.



is it better in A2A or A2G(compared to 52)? and is it better than Block 60 or in between 52 and 60?


----------



## Neptune

truthseeker2010 said:


> is it better in A2A or A2G(compared to 52)? and is it better than Block 60 or in between 52 and 60?


Well, it depends on how you use it. But it has significant air strike capabilities. What really differs Block 60 from Sufa is not only the state of art Israeli avionics. Block 60 has an advanced AESA radar with a powerful engine..I'd say F-16I Sufa is the most advanced version of Vipers.


----------



## Black Eagle 90

When will PAF going to get 14 reamining F-16s from US and also any possibility of 21 Venezuelan F-16s for PAF.


----------



## truthseeker2010

Neptune said:


> Well, it depends on how you use it. But it has significant air strike capabilities. What really differs Block 60 from Sufa is not only the state of art Israeli avionics. Block 60 has an advanced AESA radar with a powerful engine..I'd say F-16I Sufa is the most advanced version of Vipers.



Even better than F-2? and any idea on what will be cost per unit of sufa?


----------



## Neptune

truthseeker2010 said:


> Even better than F-2? and any idea on what will be cost per unit of sufa?



Of course better than the F-2, no doubt. I don't know about the price.


----------



## Munir

The Sufa has every possible threat in its system. The USA provides everything to counter anything the USA delivers to the arabs/muslims. They probably steal the rest by using Mossad very effectively. And the Arabs have even flown their aircraft ti Israel...


----------



## SQ8

Neptune said:


> Of course better than the F-2, no doubt. I don't know about the price.



Depends on how you are rating it. The F-2 carried MORE load(It has two more hardpoints).. Has an AESA Radar and ESA Jammer. 
However, the F-2 is much more a "new" aircraft as compared to the Sufa which is still essentially a customized standard F-16.


----------



## truthseeker2010

Neptune said:


> Of course better than the F-2, no doubt. I don't know about the price.



block-52 cost around 70-80 million a piece, if it is more in around 100 mil range then won't F-15k, EF, and rafale, or F-18E be better options than sufa.... i know that sufa is not for export, but im just comparing... like indian MMRCA was offered the "most advanced" f-16 variant which imo would have been better than sufa, but they went for rafale.


----------



## TOPGUN

The IAF Sufa is the most advanced and deadly viper out there with out a doubt period ....


----------



## Indus Falcon

TOPGUN said:


> The IAF Sufa is the most advanced and deadly viper out there with out a doubt period ....



I'm not going to talk too much on this except that the Sufah as an APG68-V9 radar vs a Blk 60's AN/APG80, secondly the Sufa has an F100-PW-220 engine vs a F110-GE-132 on a Blk60.

So on both counts a Sufa is definitely technically inferior to a Blk60


----------



## Black Eagle 90

Abu Nasar said:


> I'm not going to talk too much on this except that the Sufah as an APG68-V9 radar vs a Blk 60's AN/APG80, secondly the Sufa has an F100-PW-220 engine vs a F110-GE-132 on a Blk60.
> 
> So on both counts a Sufa is definitely technically inferior to a Blk60


Why not UAE producing F-16s Block-60 and also they can provide these Block-60 to Oman as well who is buying Block-50s from US.

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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> *Here's a clearer image of the one nomi 007 posted earlier, some interesting gadgets in the back ground. *



Sniper XR on the bottom left...

what's that behind the Wing Commander? Maybe the DB-110?


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## Neptune

Black Eagle 90 said:


> Why not UAE producing F-16s Block-60 and also they can provide these Block-60 to Oman as well who is buying Block-50s from US.



They can't. Producing vipers, acces to software/hardware requires both Lockheed and US government approval. There are only 3-4 companies that have this right. IAI, TAI, KAI


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## Windjammer

nuclearpak said:


> Sniper XR on the bottom left...
> 
> what's that behind the Wing Commander? Maybe the DB-110?


Yea most likely and a LGB is also visible.


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## Windjammer

*Just to confirm as to who was in charge of the Block-52 transition and conversion of No 5 Squadron.
There's a good chance that he may be appointed as the next Shahbaz Air Base Commander....and i have never visited Sindh before. *

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## elitepilot09

Black Eagle 90 said:


> I am asking a question???



Alright... Although I have my skepticism, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not Nishan.

But please explain to me how or why Pakistan would buy the used and abused Venezuelan F-16's OR why even they would be interested to sell? Do you understand that they are older than our very own A/B F-16's? Let me guess.. you want to MLU them too? Do you understand that Pakistan ordered just enough MLU kits for it's own F-16 fleet and the new falcons from Jordan? Just because Pakistna bought second-hand F-16s from Jordan, doesn't mean that we should start shopping around and buy everyone elses waste.

Before asking such a baseless question, have a meaningful thought and discussion in your mind... I guarantee you that your contributions will be more appreciated here.

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## DANGER-ZONE

elitepilot09 said:


> ^ Huh?? From Venezuela?? This looks like Nishan_101 in disguise...





laghari said:


> Black eagle 90 you totaly sounds like nishan





dexter said:


> Man im sick of these wishlist gang



Gentlemen please take a look in here https://defence.pk/threads/a-new-fake-a-c-every-month-and-same-old-wishes-every-day.270848/


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## fatman17

*Pakistan Takes Delivery of First Five Royal Jordanian F-16 fighter jets *
*Pakistan Takes Delivery of First Five Royal Jordanian F-16 fighter jets *



 Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has received today its first batch of five Royal Jordanian F-16 fighter jets under a deal to purchase upto 13 F-16s fighter jets out.



First batch of Royal Jordanian F-16 AM/BM fighter jets arrived at the Mushaf Mir Airbase in Sargodha were inducted in the PAF fleet. Pakistan Air Force will induct an other eight Jordanian fighter jets to increase the F-16 total to 76. These fighter jets will serve PAF for another 20 years with almost 3,000 hours on average available to them for flying." 

Read more: Pakistan Takes Delivery of First Five Royal Jordanian F-16 fighter jets | Pakistan Military Review


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## fatman17

PAF Fully Prepared for Operation against Taliban: Air Chief





*PAF Fully Prepared for Operation against Taliban: Air Chief*
Posted by: Humaima Malik April 28, 2014 0

*Sargodha: *Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt,Chief of the Air Staff Pakistan Air Force (PAF), has said that air force is fully prepared for military operation against Tehreek-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP).

Speaking to presspersons on the occasion of the induction of the first batch of F-16 fighter jets purchased from Jordan here on Sunday, the air chief said that PAF is fully capable of coping with all the internal and external threats. He said that collateral damaged during operation is out of question as PAF fighter jets only hit specified target.

The first batch comprised five fighter jets 13 which propelled the tally of PAF F-16s to 71. PAF had signed contract with Jordan for 13 F-16s, the remaining will be delivered to Pakistan in months to come.

An imposing ceremony was held to induct these jets. Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique was the chief guest on the occasion. The ceremony was also attended by Ambassador of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan to Pakistan Nawaf Khalifa Saraieh and other high ranking officers from PAF and Pakistan Army.

Air chief said that these aircraft will strengthen the defence of Pakistan. He said that PAF will continue to perform its duties as in the light of the directions of government of Pakistan.

He said that jets were in good condition as they had attained Mid-Life Update (MLU) and have capacity of providing service for another 20 years.

He said further said that due to financial constrains PAF was compelled to purchase used fighter aircrafts from Jordan.

F-16 Sqdns
no 5
no 11
no 9
no 19?


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## krash

fatman17 said:


> F-16 Sqdns
> no 5
> no 11
> no 9
> *no 19?*



No. 19 is an OCU unit with with relatively new F-7Ps and FT-7s. I'm guessing the 16s are just temporarily stationed with it?


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## fatman17

*Pakistan receives first five F-16s from Jordan*
April 28, 2014 (by Asif Shamim) - *The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) received the first 5 of 13 F-16s purchased from Jordan on Sunday at Mushaf Air Base, Pakistan. The ambassador of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan to Pakistan Nawaf Khalifa Saraieh and senior PAF and army officers also attended the arrival ceremony.*





The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) received the first 5 of 13 F-16s purchased from Jordan on April 27, 2014 at Mushaf Air Base, Pakistan. The ambassador of the of Jordan Nawaf Khalifa Saraieh and senior PAF and army officers also attended the arrival ceremony. [Photographer unknown] 
The batch of Ex Royal Jordanian F-16 AM/BM were flown by Pakistani pilots, directly from Jordan. With the addition of these new airframes (12 A models and one B model aircraft) the PAF will reach 76 F-16s in service. Lockheed Martin and the US government gave its blessing for the sale/purchase of the jets with contracts being signed back in 2013.

PAF officials declined to give any details of the amount involved in the deal but they claimed that it has been transparent and it would be made public next month just before the delivery of the remaining F-16s.

The airframes which are all in good condition as all had been updated to the Mid-Life Update (MLU) before they were purchased by the Jordanian government. Each jet is expected to provide service for another 20 years with almost 3,000 flying hours life on average available per airframe. 

Reiterating their commitment to face any challenge confronting Pakistan, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafiq Butt has said that introduction of new F-16 fighter jets in the PAF fleet would further enhance its efficiency to effectively handle the internal and external threats.



krash said:


> No. 19 is an OCU unit with with relatively new F-7Ps and FT-7s. I'm guessing the 16s are just temporarily stationed with it?


 
my bad - they are with the CCS sqdn.

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## Najam Khan

fatman17 said:


> PAF officials declined to give any details of the amount involved in the deal but they claimed that it has been transparent and it would be made public next month just before the delivery of the remaining F-16s.
> 
> The airframes which are all in good condition as all had been updated to the Mid-Life Update (MLU) before they were purchased by the Jordanian government. Each jet is expected to provide service for another *20 years with almost 3,000 flying hours life* on average available per airframe.


Means no MLU planned for these ex-RJAF a/c.



krash said:


> No. 19 is an OCU unit with with relatively new F-7Ps and FT-7s. I'm guessing the 16s are just temporarily stationed with it?


No.19 Sqn would be 4th F-16 Sqn, hopefully by end of next month. It shall be relocated to Mushaf.

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## fatman17

*Pakistan gets five F-16s from Jordan*
April 28, 2014 RECORDER REPORT





 Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on Sunday inducted the first batch of multi-role air defence capable, F-16 fighter aircraft, purchased from Royal Jordanian Air Force, into its fleet here at Mushaf Airbase. Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt was the chief guest at the arrival ceremony. Speaking on the occasion, the Chief of Air Staff said that Pakistan Air Force was fully capable to meet any internal or external challenges. 

Expressing his pleasure over induction of first batch of F-16 aircraft into PAF, he said the government and three services acknowledged the importance of air power for today's modern warfare. 

Tahir Rafique Butt said that Jordan was a brotherly and friendly country which provided these aircraft on a very nominal cost. 

Responding to a question he said, PAF always delivered 100 percent striking with precision and accuracy to avoid collateral damage. 

He informed that the second batch of F-16 fighter aircraft from Jordan, would reach shortly. 

He said the deal to purchase 13 aircraft from Jordan was finalised in February 2013. The aircraft were flown by Pakistani pilots, directly from Jordan. Pakistani Mirage and F-16 aircraft escorted the F-16 fighter jets when they entered into country's airspace. 

The pilots were welcomed and presented bouquet by their children on their arrival at the airbase. 

The F-16 will be included in No 19 Squadron which remained under the command of CAS, Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt from July 1991 to October 1993. 

Students of PAF Base Mushaf School presented a national song on the occasion. 

The ceremony was attended by Jordan Ambassador to Pakistan and high-ranking officials of Pakistan Air Force and Army. 

Earlier on his arrival, the Chief of Air Staff was received by Air Officer Commanding Central Air Command, Air Vice Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan at the airbase. 

*Associated Press of Pakistan, 2014*

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## Battle Axe

Najam Khan said:


> Means no MLU planned for these ex-RJAF a/c.
> 
> 
> No.19 Sqn would be 4th F-16 Sqn, hopefully by end of next month. It shall be relocated to Mushaf.



Lifts hearts! Wish to see a 5th Sqn soon and total strength going to 100.


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## fatman17

*Update on ex-Jordanian F-16 Deliveries to Pakistan AF*
Posted on: April 29th, 2014



Three of the five ex-Jordanian F-16s delivered to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on April 27 arrive at PAF Base Mushaf-Sargodha accompanied by two PAF Mirages. PAF

UPDATING OUR previous report on _AFD_ regarding the delivery of the first five ex-Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF) F-16A/Bs to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), a few more details are now available. It had originally been reported that the PAF acquisition of 13 ex-RJAF aircraft was to comprise 12 F-16As and one F-16B. 

However, the five aircraft that arrived at PAF Base Mushaf-Sargodha on April 27 are now known to have comprised three F-16As and two F-16Bs, indicating that the split between F-16As and F-16Bs must have changed.

Four of the five aircraft that arrived have now been identified from the photograph of their arrival released by the PAF. Two of the F-16As are 14732 and 14736, which still carry their ex-RJAF serials, 220 and 225, respectively, on their noses. The two F-16Bs are 14626 and 14627, the latter also carrying ex-RJAF serial 235, while the previous identity of the other is not clear on the image, but could possibly be 234. The PAF serial of the third F-16A is not visible on the photograph and its ex-RJAF serial is indistinct, but could be 222 or 223.

The remaining ex-RJAF aircraft are scheduled for delivery to the PAF ‘very soon’, according to the official PAF press release. As previously reported, they will be operated by 19 Squadron ‘Sherdils’, which was officially re-formed at Mushaf as an F-16 unit on April 27. AFD-Dave Allport



Chief of the Air Staff of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), Air Chief Marshal Rahur Rafique Butt, along with His Excellency Nawaf Khalifa Saraieh, Jordanian Ambassador to Pakistan, plus various other dignitaries and the PAF pilots who flew the aircraft in from Jordan, pose for a group photo in front of the five ex-EJAF F-16A/Bs on April 27 following their arrival at Mushaf. PAF

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## fatman17

*Contracts & Key Events*
*2012 – 2014*
Pakistan buys 13 more F-16A/B Block 15s from Jordan;




Jordanian F-16A/B ADFs
*April 29/14: Jordanian deliveries.* The World Tribune:
“Pakistani sources said five aircraft arrived and were deployed by the Pakistan Air Force on April 27…. Diplomatic sources said… potential suppliers included Egypt, Jordan and Turkey. In his address, [PAF commander Marshal Tahir Rafique] Butt said… the fighters, [now] housed at the Air Force base in Sargodha, were in good condition.”

That base is about 150 miles due south of Islamabad, in the Punjab region. Sources: The World Tribune, “Jordan exports surplus F-16s to Pakistan”.

*Feb 19/14: +13 Jordanian.* Pakistani media report that the government has inked a deal with Jordan for 12 used F-16As and 1 F-16B:
“With this, the strength of PAF F-16s will reach 76…. The deal… has been authenticated by the manufacturing company and the US government has also given its nod for the sale/purchase of the planes. Well-placed defence sources told The News here the other day that the purchased aircraft were in good condition…. have been modified into Air Defence Fighters (ADF) versions. The Ogden Air Logistics Centre performed structural upgrades to extend the aircraft life from the designed 4,000 to 8,000 hours flying time as part of the programme. They also modified the aircraft engine bay for the upgraded Pratt and Whitney F100-220E engine”

The RJAF does fly F-16 MLUs bought second-hand from Belgium and the Netherlands, but this set being sold is from the 33-plane Peace Falcon I/II purchases of F-16 ADFs in 1997 and 2003. The F-16 ADF variant is actually the F-16 Block 15OCU, which added the more reliable F100-PW-220 turbofan, structural strengthening, an enlarged HUD, and provisions for the radar-guided AIM-120 AMRAAM missile. F-16 ADFs retain the AN/APG-66 radar, which has been supplanted by APG-68 models in subsequent variants and in Pakistan’s upgraded fighters. ADFs have some precision ground attack capability using the AGM-65 Maverick missile, but would be well behind Pakistan’s 18 new Block 52s, or the PAF’s roughly 40 existing Block 15 fighters that were upgraded to a similar standard under the programs above.

Barring upgrades, the best use for F-16 ADFs is as interceptor and air superiority fighters. Recall, however, that the DSCA request for MLU & Falcon STAR kits had a maximum of 60 aircraft, and that these kits wouldn’t be needed for the new F-16C/D Block 52s. Pakistan could order 13 more upgrade kits for these aircraft, and still be within its allotted FMS total.

The deal leaves the Royal Jordanian Air Force with 43-46 front-line F-16AM/BM MLU Block 20 fighters, and 15-18 F-16A/B Block 15 ADFs, of 79 purchased. Not only do they make some money with this sale, they also cut down on the number of RJAF F-16 ADFs that will need expensive mid-life upgrades. At least 2 of the F-16 ADFs have been lost in accidents, and their 5th and most recent F-16 accident took place on Jan 29/14 . Sources: Pakistan’s The News International, “PAF acquires F-16s from Jordan”.​

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## Windjammer

Najam Khan said:


> No.19 Sqn would be 4th F-16 Sqn, hopefully by end of next month. It shall be relocated to Mushaf.



All present at the ceremony supporting caps with No19 Squadrons logo ''War Hawks'' is a big give away.

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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> All present at the ceremony supporting caps with No19 Squadrons logo ''War Hawks'' is a big give away.


 
its a celebrated sqn during 65 war with raid on pathankot led by nosey haider.

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> its a celebrated sqn during 65 war with raid on pathankot led by nosey haider.


Indeed sir, all the more remarkable for the fact that despite being very active, it never suffered a single loss during the entire war.

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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day*
Nothing is true in tactics. -- Commander Randy Duke Cunningham, USN 
5 Victories, Vietnam Conflict

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## Windjammer



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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## MastanKhan

Windjammer said:


>


 

Windjammer,

Convey a message---let these F16's keep the arabic numercals of jordanian AF so that we can remember the help from Jordan whenever we see them---we can add our numericals as well.


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## Windjammer

MastanKhan said:


> Windjammer,
> 
> Convey a message---let these F16's keep the arabic numercals of jordanian AF so that we can remember the help from Jordan whenever we see them---we can add our numericals as well.


But sir the aircraft weren't exactly gifted and in any case such an exercise would cause confusion since Arabic numericals can be attributed to many of our Al-Sheikh allies, perhaps a small portrait of Queen Rania just under the canopy would be more expressive, pilot stepping into the cockpit will definitely have a smile on his face besides it will remind him that he's fighting for both....the queen and the country.

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## Informant

Windjammer said:


> But sir the aircraft weren't exactly gifted and in any case such an exercise would cause confusion since Arabic numericals can be attributed to many of our Al-Sheikh allies, perhaps a small portrait of Queen Rania just under the canopy would be more expressive, pilot stepping into the cockpit will definitely have a smile on his face besides it will remind him that he's fighting for both....the queen and the country.

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## fatman17

AGM-65, LGB, Iron Bombs

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## nomi007

Head on view of F-16C flying over snow capped mountains of Karakorum Range. Aircraft is loaded with fuselage mounted CFTs,
two 370 gallon fuel tanks, four Acceleration Monitoring Device (AMD) and Sniper pod mounted on starboard engine inlet pylon.
The pilot is wearing Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS).

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## Najam Khan

...

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## Manticore

Najam Khan said:


> ...


PAFwallpapers Blog | ...all about Pakistan Air Force!

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## aliyusuf

Does anyone have any information about how many F-16s we got back after MLU?
How many AM's and BM's?
Its been a while since we got any information on this and would appreciate it if someone who knows and can share.

Regards.


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## DESERT FIGHTER

Najam Khan said:


> ...




Want to see a fully loaded Blk 52+ with CFTs... please...


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## nomi007

aliyusuf said:


> Does anyone have any information about how many F-16s we got back after MLU?
> How many AM's and BM's?
> Its been a while since we got any information on this and would appreciate it if someone who knows and can share.
> 
> Regards.

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## Windjammer

The image may not be PAF related but it shows the capabilities of a F-16 as it locks on a Eurofighter Typhoon which is something the PAF pilots have repeatedly demonstrated.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Windjammer said:


> The image may not be PAF related but it shows the capabilities of a F-16 as it locks on a Eurofighter Typhoon which is something the PAF pilots have repeatedly demonstrated.



So what ! T-38 locked Raptor, F-7P / Mirage-3 Locked F-16 .... It doesn't make much difference unless you have engagement results from both parties.


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## Windjammer

DANGER-ZONE said:


> So what ! T-38 locked Raptor, F-7P / Mirage-3 Locked F-16 .... It doesn't make much difference unless you have engagement results from both parties.


It made a lot of difference to the Saudi Commander and the Italians were pretty cheesed off about the whole affair.

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## krash

DANGER-ZONE said:


> So what ! T-38 locked Raptor, F-7P / Mirage-3 Locked F-16 .... It doesn't make much difference unless you have engagement results from both parties.



You mean the 3-0 score of F-16s Vs Typhoons? Shows pretty much the same picture.

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## Side-Winder



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## aliyusuf

[quote="nomi007, post: 5617477, member: 22967"



][/quote]

Thank you for sharing.
Any idea whether the half of these 41 birds, that have been MLUed, have returned home or not?


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## DrWatson775

Windjammer said:


> The image may not be PAF related but it shows the capabilities of a F-16 as it locks on a Eurofighter Typhoon which is something the PAF pilots have repeatedly demonstrated.


This looks like the F16 has its cannon armed from the lines tracking along the sides of the Typhoon. Its not a missile lock on as far as I know.


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## Windjammer

DrWatson775 said:


> This looks like the F16 has its cannon armed from the lines tracking along the sides of the Typhoon. Its not a missile lock on as far as I know.


It's a video grab, when the lock on was gained, the Typhoon wasn't showing up clearly, however in the image displayed, it was in gun range.

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## nomi007




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## DANGER-ZONE

krash said:


> You mean the 3-0 score of F-16s Vs Typhoons? Shows pretty much the same picture.



My Dear, that's why i said "UNLESS RESULTS FROM BOTH SIDES ARE AVAILABLE" .... that 3-0 score is one sided claim where at the time of discussion on the topic, there was an article posted in PDF from Italians source where they completed denied the proclaimed score / achievement.

Also they posted a picture of typhoon with a F-16 marks under the canopy.
Sorry i cant dig that thing right now ...


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## Najam Khan

*Enjoy!

Shahbaz Falcons – Part 1/2 - PAFwallpapers Blog*

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## truthseeker2010

Najam Khan said:


> *Enjoy!
> 
> Shahbaz Falcons – Part 1/2 - PAFwallpapers Blog*



I know its dumb question, but who are they saluting to?


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## Imran Khan

truthseeker2010 said:


> I know its dumb question, but who are they saluting to?


crew chief marshal










OWNER OF THIS F-16 IS PDF MEMBER SURE

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## krash

DANGER-ZONE said:


> My Dear, that's why i said "UNLESS RESULTS FROM BOTH SIDES ARE AVAILABLE" .... that 3-0 score is one sided claim where at the time of discussion on the topic, there was an article posted in PDF from Italians source where they completed denied the proclaimed score / achievement.
> 
> Also they posted a picture of typhoon with a F-16 marks under the canopy.
> Sorry i cant dig that thing right now ...



Accept that the score was not reported by any Pakistani source, and instead was reported by Alan Warnes, the former editor of the very reputable Airforces Monthly. Both with the Italians and with the Saudis, if I'm not mistaken.



Najam Khan said:


> *Enjoy!
> 
> Shahbaz Falcons – Part 1/2 - PAFwallpapers Blog*



Awesome pics! Btw how old are these? There are no serial numbers or squadron markings.

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## Munir

It is true. Have heard it from multiple sources. Let us move on please.


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## Stealth



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## Windjammer

@Oscar @Aeronaut @fatman17 @Munir check out the weapon load.

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## Informant

Windjammer said:


> @Oscar @Aeronaut @fatman17 @Munir check out the weapon load.



People over the border will surely be at unease

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## Windjammer

Informant said:


> People over the border will surely be at unease



Some you see but imagine the some you don't see.

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## Irfan Baloch

Informant said:


> People over the border will surely be at unease




who the Northern alliance scum? 
our F-7s will be enough for those thugs

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## Indus Falcon

Informant said:


> People over the border will surely be at unease


You've put it too mildly! 



Irfan Baloch said:


> who the Northern alliance scum?
> our F-7s will be enough for those thugs


Those thugs and their unlawful fathers as well!

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## Windjammer

Irfan Baloch said:


> who the Northern alliance scum?
> our F-7s will be enough for those thugs


Or even the Cobra gunships.... i think @Informant was pointing towards the border with some unsettled issues.

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## Irfan Baloch

Windjammer said:


> Or even the Cobra gunships.... i think @Informant was pointing towards the border with some unsettled issues.


durand line? 

come on I am a simpleton Baloch you have to hit me with the brick in the head to make it obvious

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## Windjammer

Irfan Baloch said:


> durand line?
> 
> come on I am a simpleton Baloch you have to hit me with the brick in the head to make it obvious


Come on Irfan Bahi, apno k saath patli baat.

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## Irfan Baloch

Windjammer said:


> Come on Irfan Bahi, apno k saath patli baat.


our ISI ka hawa is enough to cause them diarrhea. 
F-16s will lead the way and J-17s will be on the flanks Inshallah

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## Windjammer

Irfan Baloch said:


> our ISI ka hawa is enough to cause them diarrhea.
> F-16s will lead the way and J-17s will be on the flanks Inshallah


A poster in a PAF Mess room reads...'' Why enemy pilots don't sleep'' the writing is accompanied by a certain dramatic image.

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## Informant

Windjammer said:


> Some you see but imagine the some you don't see.



Some i see is more than enough to counter their huge *** radars 

Some what they dont see is better left to imagination 



Irfan Baloch said:


> who the Northern alliance scum?
> our F-7s will be enough for those thugs



Eastern side.

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## nomi007

Windjammer said:


> @Oscar @Aeronaut @fatman17 @Munir check out the weapon load.


bro plz upload full hd mode image


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## Stealth

nomi007 said:


> bro plz upload full hd mode image



HD kabhe nahe hoga koi nahe karayga kyoonkay woh Security reason ban sakhta hey aur usay Pakistan kay aham tareen idaroon ka secret bahir jaayege isliye enjoy karoo display pictures lol  windjammer nay fire maardeni hehy mujeh ub lolzz

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## Windjammer

Stealth said:


> HD kabhe nahe hoga koi nahe karayga kyoonkay woh Security reason ban sakhta hey aur usay Pakistan kay aham tareen idaroon ka secret bahir jaayege isliye enjoy karoo display pictures lol  windjammer nay fire maardeni hehy mujeh ub lolzz



Yaara, tum apna koi apna special effect wala make up karo na picture ka....merey paas jesey aye wesey hi laga di.,,,apna kaam khalas.

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## Stealth

Windjammer said:


> Yaara, tum apna koi apna special effect wala make up karo na picture ka....merey paas jesey aye wesey hi laga di.,,,apna kaam khalas.



tu mujhe HD size bhaeej may usko veena malik bana kar make up shakeup aur kapray pehna kar fir upload karta hoon  wesay veena malik aur kaproon ka taluk tu nahe hey duur duur tak par may koshish karoonga

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## nomi007



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## nomi007

camouflage in night

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## Kompromat

Stealth said:


> tu mujhe HD size bhaeej may usko veena malik bana kar make up shakeup aur kapray pehna kar fir upload karta hoon  wesay veena malik aur kaproon ka taluk tu nahe hey duur duur tak par may koshish karoonga



Windjammer - send him the HQ pix

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## Stealth

Aeronaut said:


> Windjammer - send him the HQ pix



Yes @Windjammer send me aaj kal Aeronaut pareshan hey usko mainay kuch dekhaya huwa hey


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## Imran Khan

Stealth said:


> Yes @Windjammer send me aaj kal Aeronaut pareshan hey usko mainay kuch dekhaya huwa hey




gandi ulaad maza na swaad

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## Fahad Khan 2

How many upgraded F-16 we have received from turkey???


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## Stealth

Fahad Khan 2 said:


> How many upgraded F-16 we have received from turkey???



3,998

1 mainay chori kya hey aur eek @Imran Khan nay.... u ko chhaye  ?

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## Imran Khan

Stealth said:


> 3,998
> 
> 1 mainay chori kya hey aur eek @Imran Khan nay.... u ko chhaye  ?


 bhai mera to helicopter hai wo bhi urta nhi shareek uska pankha hi khol ker jo le gaay hain

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## Stealth

Imran Khan said:


> bhai mera to helicopter hai wo bhi urta nhi shareek uska pankha hi khol ker jo le gaay hain



teray jesay hero helicopter kay phankay ke jaga millat ka phaanka laga kar ura rahay hotay hain...

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## nomi007



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## Fahad Khan 2

Stealth said:


> 3,998
> 
> 1 mainay chori kya hey aur eek @Imran Khan nay.... u ko chhaye  ?



Yar serious ma poch raha hon...


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## nomi007

Turkish F-16 Pilot Night Vision System



which system paf use ?

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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> jordanian f-16s coming to pakistan


WTF lolz 85727 was our F-16 some 28 YEARS ago . this picture was taken when one of pilot Wg Cdr Tariq Zia reaches 2000 hours few years ago .pics were posted here on 
Apr 25, 2009 

PAF F-16 pilot's flying hours











ring the bell?

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## elitepilot09

nomi007 said:


> jordanian f-16s coming to pakistan



Even the paint scheme is notably different, this is not ex-RJAF.


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## Windjammer

@Aeronaut @Stealth, There you go comrades, under the circumstances, this is the best i could get.



Aeronaut said:


> Windjammer - send him the HQ pix

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## nomi007

No.11 Sqn 'One Team - One Mission'.

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## Munir

Windjammer said:


> @Aeronaut @Stealth, There you go comrades, under the circumstances, this is the best i could get.


Windjammer, if you look at the small fins/wings at the end of the fueltank you can see that the block52+ has indeed the bigger fueltanks!

What I did find out is that we should not believe everything that is printed. It was said that CFT would only be used for real long missions. We have seen pretty much everywhere (and same goes for PAF) that CFT will stay on all the time. They have that rather then wing fueltanks.

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## Windjammer

Munir said:


> Windjammer, if you look at the small fins/wings at the end of the fueltank you can see that the block52+ has indeed the bigger fueltanks!
> 
> What I did find out is that we should not believe everything that is printed. It was said that CFT would only be used for real long missions. We have seen pretty much everywhere (and same goes for PAF) that CFT will stay on all the time. They have that rather then wing fueltanks.


Yes and it seems to appear in a two tone grey/white scheme. ?
Even Alan Warnes once told me that due to extra drag, PAF would only use CFTs on special missions.
Must say compared to the drop tanks, the electronic pod appears of some size.

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## Pinnacle

Windjammer said:


> Yes and it seems to appear in a two tone grey/white scheme. ?
> Even Alan Warnes once told me that due to extra drag, PAF would only use CFTs on special missions.
> Must say compared to the drop tanks, the electronic pod appears of some size.


But with CFTs F-16 looks pretty cool.


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## nomi007

with sniper pod looks cool

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## nomi007

3 F-16 MLU, escorted by 2 Mirage III performing a flyby over PAF Base Mushaf upon their arrival from Jordan.

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## nana41

Oscar said:


> How could I not know what I am supposed to know if I dont know what it is that I am supposed to not not know?


Keeping company of Donald Rumsfeld now?.


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## nomi007

Falcon and night.

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## fatman17

*Lockheed to Fix F-16 Radar Interoperability Issue for Pakistan and Thailand*
May 15, 2014
Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., Fort Worth, Texas, has been awarded a $7,253,896 modification (P00068) to FA8615-07-C-6032 for F-16 production contracts. The total cumulative face value of the contract is $430,377,045. This modification incorporates a solution to solve a radar interoperability issue affecting F-16 aircraft produced for Pakistan and Thailand under the basic contract. Work will be performed at Fort Worth, Texas, and is expected to be completed by April 30, 2016. The contract supports 100 percent foreign military sales for Thailand and Pakistan. Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, is the contracting activity

*Jordan exports surplus F-16s to Pakistan*
Special to WorldTribune.com
LONDON — Jordan has delivered U.S.-origin fighter-jets to Pakistan.
Pakistan has received the first of 13 F-16A/B multi-role fighters from Jordan.



Pakistani F-16. /TuAF
Pakistani sources said five aircraft arrived and were deployed by the Pakistan Air Force on April 27.
“This new fighter would increase the capacity of the Air Force,” Pakistan Air Force commander Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt said.
This marked the first delivery of F-16s by Jordan. Over the last 15 years, Jordan has developed an F-16 fleet of more than 60 aircraft, all of them surplus from NATO air forces.
*Diplomatic sources said the United States, blocked by Congress, has urged other F-16 operators to export the aircraft to Pakistan. They said potential suppliers included Egypt, Jordan and Turkey.*
In his address, Butt said Pakistan was forced to purchase surplus F-16s
because of budget difficulties. He said the fighters, housed at the Air
Force base in Sargodha, were in good condition.

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## nomi007



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## Pinnacle

fatman17 said:


> *Lockheed to Fix F-16 Radar Interoperability Issue for Pakistan and Thailand*
> May 15, 2014
> Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co., Fort Worth, Texas, has been awarded a $7,253,896 modification (P00068) to FA8615-07-C-6032 for F-16 production contracts. The total cumulative face value of the contract is $430,377,045. This modification incorporates a solution to solve a radar interoperability issue affecting F-16 aircraft produced for Pakistan and Thailand under the basic contract. Work will be performed at Fort Worth, Texas, and is expected to be completed by April 30, 2016. The contract supports 100 percent foreign military sales for Thailand and Pakistan. Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, is the contracting activity
> 
> *Jordan exports surplus F-16s to Pakistan*
> Special to WorldTribune.com
> LONDON — Jordan has delivered U.S.-origin fighter-jets to Pakistan.
> Pakistan has received the first of 13 F-16A/B multi-role fighters from Jordan.
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistani F-16. /TuAF
> Pakistani sources said five aircraft arrived and were deployed by the Pakistan Air Force on April 27.
> “This new fighter would increase the capacity of the Air Force,” Pakistan Air Force commander Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt said.
> This marked the first delivery of F-16s by Jordan. Over the last 15 years, Jordan has developed an F-16 fleet of more than 60 aircraft, all of them surplus from NATO air forces.
> *Diplomatic sources said the United States, blocked by Congress, has urged other F-16 operators to export the aircraft to Pakistan. They said potential suppliers included Egypt, Jordan and Turkey.*
> In his address, Butt said Pakistan was forced to purchase surplus F-16s
> because of budget difficulties. He said the fighters, housed at the Air
> Force base in Sargodha, were in good condition.


So there are chances for egyptian and Turkish F-16s too. what about norwegian F-16s Sir.?
I think 100-120 F-16 are very possible now.


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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## nomi007



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## Mir Shahzain

@fatman17 what does mean by "*Radar Interoperability Issue" *???

@nomi007


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## Secret Service

nomi007 said:


> Falcon and night.


i always wish to see theses beautiful birds...


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## Kompromat

These birds need a fresh paintjob.

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## nomi007




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## nomi007




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## random123

nomi007 said:


>


So 11 more from Jordan coming to Pakistan and what about the remaining 14 from US???


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## nomi007

random123 said:


> So 11 more from Jordan coming to Pakistan and what about the remaining 14 from US???


depends upon relations with usa
hope fully paf will cross 100+ f-16s this year INSHAALLAH

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## Munir

As expected. Probably 13-40 sets...

*Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod (ATP) System, Replenishment Line Replaceable Unit Spares, Bench Stock, Support Equipment, Technical Orders, Contractor Technical Support (CTS) and User Familiarization*



This market survey is being conducted to identify potential sources that may possess the expertise, capabilities, and experience to meet the requirements for manufacturing, testing and delivering AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod (ATP) Systems, Replenishment Line Replaceable Unit (LRU) Spares, Bench Stock, Support Equipment, Technical Orders, Contractor Technical Support (CTS) and User Familiarization for the Sniper ATP system. The level of security clearance and amount of foreign participation in this requirement has been outlined in the Advanced Targeting Pod (ATP) Programs, AN/AAQ-28, Laser Infrared Targeting and Navigating (LITENING), AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod – Sensor Enhancement (ATP-SE) Security Classification Declassification Guide (SCDG), 1 July 2010.* C*ontractors/Institutions responding to this market research are placed on notice that participation in this survey may not ensure participation in future solicitations or contract awards. The government will not reimburse participants for any expenses associated with their participation in this survey.


*INSTRUCTIONS:*



Below is a document containing a description of the sustainment requirement and a Contractor Capability Survey, which allows you to provide your company’s capability.


If, after reviewing these documents, you desire to participate in the market research, you should provide documentation that supports your company’s capability in meeting these requirements. Failure to provide documentation may result in the government being unable to adequately assess your capabilities. If you lack sufficient experience in a particular area, please provide details explaining how you would overcome the lack of experience/capabilities in order to perform that portion of the requirement (i.e., teaming, subcontracting, etc.)


Both large and small businesses are encouraged to participate in this Market Research. Joint ventures or teaming arrangements are encouraged.

4. Questions relative to this market survey should be addressed to Candace Gibson, (478) 926-1384.


*REQUIREMENTS DESCRIPTION*
*AN/AAQ-33Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod (ATP) Systems, Replenishment Line Replaceable Unit (LRU) Spares, Bench Stock, Support Equipment, Technical Orders, Contractor Technical Support (CTS) and User Familiarization for the Sniper ATP *

*PURPOSE/DESCRIPTION*

We are conducting market research to identify potential sources that may possess the expertise, capabilities, and experience to meet the requirements for manufacture, test, and delivery of Sniper ATP Systems, Replenishment LRU Spares, Bench Stock, Support Equipment, Technical Orders, CTS and User Familiarization for the Sniper ATP systems sold to Foreign Military Air Forces to include Iraq, *Pakistan* and Taiwan through Foreign Military Sales. This acquisition of supplies and services is for five years through CY2020. This requirement is to sustain 125 operational systems flying an average of 12 hours per month at an 85% operational availability.

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## nomi007

Wing Commander Ali Naeem of PAF, performing a 'low pass'

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## air marshal




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## nomi007

*Today In History - May 17, 1986*
PAF F-16 shoots down a Su-22 of the Afghan Air Force, making Pakistan the second country after Israel to put F-16s into military action. The encounter took place at 16,000 feet over Parachinar, during the Afghan war, 1979-1988.



salute to u paf

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## nomi007

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=493678770670960

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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## Manticore



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## nomi007

*sq no.19 *_*Sherdils* _will be replace by ex-Jordanian *F-16A/B Block 15 ADF* this week


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## DESERT FIGHTER



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## razgriz19

ADF can carry AMRAAM correct?


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## araz

razgriz19 said:


> ADF can carry AMRAAM correct?


yes . correct

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## elitepilot09

Wonderful assortment of images of our F-16s. 

Just wish once that I would see one of our F-16s armed to the teeth including AMRAAMs. (exluding that one image from 2009/10)


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## gambit

elitepilot09 said:


> Wonderful assortment of images of our F-16s.
> 
> Just wish once that I would see one of our F-16s armed to the teeth including AMRAAMs. (exluding that one image from 2009/10)


When I was at MacDill (87-92), which was an F-16 training base with Luke AFB, we sometimes conducted various F-16 mods and tests. Once I saw an F-16C with a centerline fuel tank, two Sidewinders on the tips, and every underwing stores loaded with AMRAAM dummies on pylons. I was on the way home so I lost count how many missiles that thing was carrying. But it was an impressive sight because a lot of people on the flightline stopped their work and watched the jet taxied out to the runway.

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## Donatello

gambit said:


> When I was at MacDill (87-92), which was an F-16 training base with Luke AFB, we sometimes conducted various F-16 mods and tests. Once I saw an F-16C with a centerline fuel tank, two Sidewinders on the tips, and every underwing stores loaded with AMRAAM dummies on pylons. I was on the way home so I lost count how many missiles that thing was carrying. But it was an impressive sight because a lot of people on the flightline stopped their work and watched the jet taxied out to the runway.


I am assuming the maximum AIM120s that F-16s can integrate and carry is six?


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## Indus Falcon

Donatello said:


> I am assuming the maximum AIM120s that F-16s can integrate and carry is six?



As per f16.net you are right!


*F-16 Loadout*
On the F-16, AIM-120 AMRAAMs can be loaded on stations 1 and 9 (1 missile each, wingtip), 2 & 8 (1 missile each) and 3 & 7 (1 missile each).





http://www.f-16.net/f-16_armament_article3.html
F-16 Armament - AIM-120 AMRAAM

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## fatman17

nice job on the pics.....

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## Windjammer

*F-16 planes from Jordan included in PAF fleet - 21st May 2014
Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on Wednesday organized a formal ceremony to include F-16 fighter jets from Jordan Air Force into the national forces fleet here at Sargodha Airbase. The fighter jets arrived from Pakistan’s middle-eastern friendly country Jordan and were included in PAF Nineteenth Squad. The fighter aircraft have been purchased from Jordan and they were in the use of the Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF). The ceremony started with the recitation of Holy Quran, Pakistan Army Chief General Raheel Sharif was the chief guest of the ceremony.


VIDEO LINK :*

F-16 planes from Jordan included in PAF fleet - 21st May 2014

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## nomi007

Lower fuselage of F-16 being inspected at F-16 upgrade cell. After MLU of entire
F-16 fleet in 2014, the aircraft repair and modification status of such facilities shall be upgraded too.

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## Donatello

nomi007 said:


> Lower fuselage of F-16 being inspected at F-16 upgrade cell. After MLU of entire
> F-16 fleet in 2014, the aircraft repair and modification status of such facilities shall be upgraded too.




These men are the real driving force behind our armed forces. Without them, pilots are nothing. Special salute to the men who keep these machines in tip top shape!!

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## Thorough Pro

Why did she kept saying sixteen (16) F-16? and 4th squadron? She probably meant 4th F-16 squadron.





Windjammer said:


> *F-16 planes from Jordan included in PAF fleet - 21st May 2014
> Pakistan Air Force (PAF) on Wednesday organized a formal ceremony to include F-16 fighter jets from Jordan Air Force into the national forces fleet here at Sargodha Airbase. The fighter jets arrived from Pakistan’s middle-eastern friendly country Jordan and were included in PAF Nineteenth Squad. The fighter aircraft have been purchased from Jordan and they were in the use of the Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF). The ceremony started with the recitation of Holy Quran, Pakistan Army Chief General Raheel Sharif was the chief guest of the ceremony.
> 
> VIDEO LINK :*
> 
> F-16 planes from Jordan included in PAF fleet - 21st May 2014


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## nomi007

Donatello said:


> These men are the real driving force behind our armed forces. Without them, pilots are nothing. Special salute to the men who keep these machines in tip top shape!!


totally agree


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## fatman17

*Final ex-Jordanian F-16s Delivered to Pakistan AF*
Posted on: May 21st, 2014



Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Chief of the Air Staff, plus His Excellency Nawaf Khalifa Araieh, Jordanian Ambassador to Pakistan, together with the PAF pilots who flew the aircraft in from Jordan, pose for a group photograph at PAF Base Mushaf-Sargodha on April 27 following the delivery of the first five of 13 ex-Royal Jordanian Air Force F-16A/Bs to the PAF. The remaining eight aircraft arrived at the base today. PAF

DELIVERY OF the remaining eight of the 13 ex-Royal Jordanian Air Force (RJAF) F-16A/Bs being acquired by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was completed today, May 21. The aircraft were flown in to PAF Base Mushaf-Sargodha, joining the initial five ex-RJAF aircraft which, as previously reported on _AFD_, had arrived at the base on April 27.

All 13 of the new deliveries will be operated by 19 Squadron ‘Sherdils’, which was officially re-formed at Mushaf as an F-16 unit on the same day as the first five aircraft arrived. With the final aircraft now delivered, a formal induction ceremony was held today, with Army chief General Raheel Sharif as the chief guest.He said these aircraft will further increase the capabilities of the PAF and also noted that both the Army and Air Force are making co-operative efforts to get maximum results against war on terror.

PAF Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt, Chief of the Air Staff, said that the addition of the new squadron will increase PAF’s capacity in combating both internal as well as external challenges.

The precise mix of F-16As and ’Bs in the package of 13 aircraft remains unconfirmed. As we reported previously, it was said to have involved 12 F-16As and one F-16B, but when the first five arrived, it included two F-16Bs and three F-16As. Whether all of today’s arrivals were all F-16As has yet to be confirmed. AFD-

Dave Allport


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## fatman17

Quote of the Day
Wingman is only allowed to say three things: Two, Bingo, and Lead, you're on Fire -- Anonymous

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## Kompromat



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## Windjammer

Thorough Pro said:


> Why did she kept saying sixteen (16) F-16? and 4th squadron? She probably meant 4th F-16 squadron.


There are also usualy 16 aircraft in a squadron strength.


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## fatman17

F-16 cv

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## Munir

Told ya... Now it is in the papers...


*WITH the inclusion of a new squadron of F-16s in the fleet, the Pakistan Air Force continues its quest for sought-after fighter aircraft.*

The PAF recently purchased over a dozen American-built F-16s from Jordan to boost its strength. Eleven of these aircraft joined the PAF squad at the Mushaf airbase in Sargodha on Wednesday. With this, the total number of F-16 aircraft in the PAF is said to have reached around 80, thought to be more than sufficient to lead an aerial offence or defence tactic.

Though earlier it enjoyed supremacy in South Asia, the PAF was hit with financial constraints during the 1990s, and hardware restrictions were imposed on it by the US and its Western allies due to Pakistan’s nuclear programme. Specifically, the refusal by the US to deliver 28 F-16s despite receiving a hefty price of $685 million hit the steady development of the PAF. This prompted Pakistan to evolve an alternative strategy: this is the first time the PAF has purchased F-16 fighting falcons from a Middle Eastern country.

Pakistan not only acquired the maximum number of Mirage aircraft to build the world’s largest fleet of the 40-year-old warplane but also upgraded available F-16s with the new technology of Block 52 from Turkey. It also equipped its frontline squads with the latest avionics system, Beyond Vision Range missiles and air-to-air refuelling systems. The Mirages were upgraded at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, and after overhauling, these planes are now said to be serving to the maximum required standards.

The PAF also manufactured its own JF-17 Thunders with the help of China and inducted about 50 planes in the fleet. The plan now is to induct up to 200-250 in the squad over a couple of years as production has been doubled. Previously, Pakistan was producing around 10 JF-17 Thunder planes in a year; now, annual production stands at 20.

“Our fleet has a modest number of fighting falcons now. This includes old but overhauled and very effective Mirages, new F-16s with Block 52 technology, JF-17 Thunders, and the latest missile and avionics systems,” said PAF spokesperson Air Commodore Tariq Mahmood.

“The recently inducted F-16 squadron from Jordan has been purchased at a nominal price. Similarly the cost of co-produced JF-17 Thunder is almost one-third in comparison with any modern aircraft of its category.”

But former vice chief of air staff Air Marshal Shahid Lateef says the F-16 squadron from the Royal Jordan Air Force was available at a low price because its technology was getting old.

“The A&B version of F-16 aircraft, which we have just bought from Jordan, was available to us at a low price because Jordan was also upgrading their fleet to the C&D version of F-16. The A&B version of F-16s is now an old technology.”

Despite the PAF’s strategic expansion or upgrade, it remains far behind the Indian Air Force as far as numbers are concerned.

“India has an air force that is three times bigger than that of Pakistan,” says Lateef. “Their budget is six times higher. They have recently ordered 126 Rafale jets from France and have well over 1,000 fighter planes. We are no match for them in numbers.”

But Mahmood insists the difference in the number of planes and weapons becomes immaterial when human resource delivers better results.

“Besides technology, our main weapon is the motivation of our human force,” he argues.

“They know very well how to fight against an enemy three times bigger, and our pilots and engineers have proved themselves better in the past. Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt attaches great importance to human resource, realistic training, empowerment at field commanders level and progressive approach to tackle every challenge.”

The proof of the pudding, they say, is in the eating.

_Published in Dawn, May 22nd, 2014_

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## aliyusuf

Munir said:


> Told ya... Now it is in the papers...
> 
> 
> *WITH the inclusion of a new squadron of F-16s in the fleet, the Pakistan Air Force continues its quest for sought-after fighter aircraft.*
> 
> The PAF recently purchased over a dozen American-built F-16s from Jordan to boost its strength. Eleven of these aircraft joined the PAF squad at the Mushaf airbase in Sargodha on Wednesday. With this, the total number of F-16 aircraft in the PAF is said to have reached around 80, thought to be more than sufficient to lead an aerial offence or defence tactic.
> 
> Though earlier it enjoyed supremacy in South Asia, the PAF was hit with financial constraints during the 1990s, and hardware restrictions were imposed on it by the US and its Western allies due to Pakistan’s nuclear programme. Specifically, the refusal by the US to deliver 28 F-16s despite receiving a hefty price of $685 million hit the steady development of the PAF. This prompted Pakistan to evolve an alternative strategy: this is the first time the PAF has purchased F-16 fighting falcons from a Middle Eastern country.
> 
> Pakistan not only acquired the maximum number of Mirage aircraft to build the world’s largest fleet of the 40-year-old warplane but also upgraded available F-16s with the new technology of Block 52 from Turkey. It also equipped its frontline squads with the latest avionics system, Beyond Vision Range missiles and air-to-air refuelling systems. The Mirages were upgraded at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra, and after overhauling, these planes are now said to be serving to the maximum required standards.
> 
> The PAF also manufactured its own JF-17 Thunders with the help of China and inducted about 50 planes in the fleet. The plan now is to induct up to 200-250 in the squad over a couple of years as production has been doubled. Previously, Pakistan was producing around 10 JF-17 Thunder planes in a year; now, annual production stands at 20.
> 
> “Our fleet has a modest number of fighting falcons now. This includes old but overhauled and very effective Mirages, new F-16s with Block 52 technology, JF-17 Thunders, and the latest missile and avionics systems,” said PAF spokesperson Air Commodore Tariq Mahmood.
> 
> “The recently inducted F-16 squadron from Jordan has been purchased at a nominal price. Similarly the cost of co-produced JF-17 Thunder is almost one-third in comparison with any modern aircraft of its category.”
> 
> But former vice chief of air staff Air Marshal Shahid Lateef says the F-16 squadron from the Royal Jordan Air Force was available at a low price because its technology was getting old.
> 
> “The A&B version of F-16 aircraft, which we have just bought from Jordan, was available to us at a low price because Jordan was also upgrading their fleet to the C&D version of F-16. The A&B version of F-16s is now an old technology.”
> 
> Despite the PAF’s strategic expansion or upgrade, it remains far behind the Indian Air Force as far as numbers are concerned.
> 
> “India has an air force that is three times bigger than that of Pakistan,” says Lateef. “Their budget is six times higher. They have recently ordered 126 Rafale jets from France and have well over 1,000 fighter planes. We are no match for them in numbers.”
> 
> But Mahmood insists the difference in the number of planes and weapons becomes immaterial when human resource delivers better results.
> 
> “Besides technology, our main weapon is the motivation of our human force,” he argues.
> 
> “They know very well how to fight against an enemy three times bigger, and our pilots and engineers have proved themselves better in the past. Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt attaches great importance to human resource, realistic training, empowerment at field commanders level and progressive approach to tackle every challenge.”
> 
> The proof of the pudding, they say, is in the eating.
> 
> _Published in Dawn, May 22nd, 2014_



The article states that 11 ex-RJAF F-16 ADF's were delivered on Wednesday (yesterday) and 11 had already been delivered earlier (as had been posted on this forum earlier) ... so the total ex-RJAF planes delivered is 22?


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## Kompromat

@Windjammer

How strong is the chatter about Haseeb Paracha's appointment at Shahbaz?


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## Windjammer

Aeronaut said:


> @Windjammer
> 
> How strong is the chatter about Haseeb Paracha's appointment at Shahbaz?


@Aeronaut, Initially i learnt this from a reliable source however later when i was chatting with Haseeb (He's back now in Pak) I brought up the subject and he sounded a bit dismayed any ways all he said was '' Bus Dua Kare'n''.....i have since learned the same from another source. Worth remembering Haseeb was the main man in the induction of Block-52s.

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## Kompromat

@Windjammer

From what i've heard, he is a formidable commander and would certinly add to the firepower of the 5th squadron.


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## Informant

Patience is the key regarding Haseeb sir


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## Windjammer

Aeronaut said:


> @Windjammer
> 
> From what i've heard, he is a formidable commander and would certinly add to the firepower of the 5th squadron.


@Aeronaut, remember the guy who performed F-16 display in Turkey, I think it's W/C Ali Naeem, he was the stand by pilot for when Haseeb performed on Pakistan day parade, anyways, you wouldn't believe what's he's involved in these days. BTW, the job allegedly assigned to him is to be the next base commander.

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## RAMPAGE

So I haven't been following this thread for some time so can anyone here confirm that the recently purchased aircrafts will be undergoing MLU ???

@Munir @Informant @nomi007 @Chak Bamu


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## Informant

RAMPAGE said:


> So I haven't been following this thread for some time so can anyone here confirm that the recently purchased aircrafts will be undergoing MLU ???
> 
> @Munir @Informant @nomi007 @Chak Bamu



That i do not know. Wj would know as he has much much more tasty scoops than me

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## Thorough Pro

Yes! and where did the three remaining came from (what squadron)?



Windjammer said:


> There are also usualy 16 aircraft in a squadron strength.


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## Munir

Windjammer said:


> @Aeronaut, remember the guy who performed F-16 display in Turkey, I think it's W/C Ali Naeem, he was the stand by pilot for when Haseeb performed on Pakistan day parade, anyways, you wouldn't believe what's he's involved in these days. BTW, the job allegedly assigned to him is to be the next base commander.



@Windjammer I thought mr Naeem was posted in Saudi Arab for couple of years..


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## fatman17

Thorough Pro said:


> Yes! and where did the three remaining came from (what squadron)?


 
5 sqn has 18
9 sqn has 20
11 sqn has 20
19 sqn will have 19

some aircraft are subordinated to the CCS

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## Munir

nomi007 said:


> Lower fuselage of F-16 being inspected at F-16 upgrade cell. After MLU of entire
> F-16 fleet in 2014, the aircraft repair and modification status of such facilities shall be upgraded too.



Since I sat in this F16 728 I just can get not enough pictures of this plane. I think this was just a few months before Turkey. Man, I would rather sit in this '85 produced plane then any other brand new plane from any other nation...

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## Windjammer

Munir said:


> @Windjammer I thought mr Naeem was posted in Saudi Arab for couple of years..


@Munir, he may very well be sir but i was talking about 2005 and 2011 (Turkey Airshow) .


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## fatman17

Quote of the Day

I'm waiting to be told how cobras, hooks, or vectored thrust help in combat. They're great at air shows, but zero energy is a fighter pilot's nightmare. Shoot your opponent down and his number two will be on your tail thinking it's his birthday - a target hanging there in the sky with zero energy.

-- Ned Firth of Eurofighter at Farnborough '94

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## Munir

fatman17 said:


> Quote of the Day
> 
> I'm waiting to be told how cobras, hooks, or vectored thrust help in combat. They're great at air shows, but zero energy is a fighter pilot's nightmare. Shoot your opponent down and his number two will be on your tail thinking it's his birthday - a target hanging there in the sky with zero energy.
> 
> -- Ned Firth of Eurofighter at Farnborough '94



Well, this is marketing of EF2000. It can keep better the kinetic energy and stay extremely agile with even heavy load. But what is so important on agility if opponents have HOBS or AIM9X derivatives... Or AMRAAM/AMRAAMSKI? And even if they have EF2000, how come the plane is blown out of the sky in DACT in Turkey/Saudia while flying against 1 generation older F16 with PAF pilots?

 I love pilots but they are often blinded with what they fly.

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> Quote of the Day
> 
> I'm waiting to be told how cobras, hooks, or vectored thrust help in combat. They're great at air shows, but zero energy is a fighter pilot's nightmare. Shoot your opponent down and his number two will be on your tail thinking it's his birthday - a target hanging there in the sky with zero energy.
> 
> -- Ned Firth of Eurofighter at Farnborough '94


Just like to add that these fancy maneuvers have repeatedly been mentioned as crowd pleasures since they are executed at a very low speed, imagine trying to pull a cobra at combat speed. !!!

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## Informant

Windjammer said:


> Just like to add that these fancy maneuvers have repeatedly been mentioned as crowd pleasures since they are executed at a very low speed, imagine trying to pull a cobra at combat speed. !!!



Suicide.


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## Windjammer

Informant said:


> Suicide.



Indeed, As some one said, it could break pilot's harness and smash his face into controls or rattle the aircraft's bones.


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## Lil Mathew

Windjammer said:


> Just like to add that these fancy maneuvers have repeatedly been mentioned as crowd pleasures since they are executed at a very low speed, imagine trying to pull a cobra at combat speed. !!!


These are not just fancy maneuvers for crowd pleasures but each of it demostrates aircrafts flying abilities.. for example cobra demonstrate aircraft's pitch control authority,
high angle of attack (AOA) stability and
engine-versus-inlet compatibility, as well as
the pilot's skill.


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## nomi007

paf also need to add kc-135 for f-16s


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## Indus Falcon

nomi007 said:


> paf also need to add kc-135 for f-16s



Why an obsolete aircraft when newer tankers exist?


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## nomi007

Abu Nasar said:


> Why an obsolete aircraft when newer tankers exist?


sir g jets be old hain 
kc-135 better due to low cost


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## truthseeker2010

fatman17 said:


> 5 sqn has 18
> 9 sqn has 20
> 11 sqn has 20
> 19 sqn will have 19
> 
> some aircraft are subordinated to the CCS



*19 sqn will have 18? bcoz that adds up to 76.


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## Indus Falcon

nomi007 said:


> sir g jets be old hain
> kc-135 better due to low cost


Meray Bhai, it's a very old aircraft, meaning maintenance intensive and reliability issues. Secondly, it's based on the Boeing 707, and aircraft that Boeing stopped building in 1979. Parts could be a serious issue. 

IF we have the funds, we should go for MRTT
Airbus A330 MRTT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## nomi007

Abu Nasar said:


> Meray Bhai, it's a very old aircraft, meaning maintenance intensive and reliability issues. Secondly, it's based on the Boeing 707, and aircraft that Boeing stopped building in 1979. Parts could be a serious issue.
> 
> IF we have the funds, we should go for MRTT
> Airbus A330 MRTT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


if


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## Indus Falcon

nomi007 said:


> if


Big IF


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## nomi007



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## raazh

From the side, JF17 is looks bulkier than F16. Even the nose section seems more spacious .. I reckon, with continuous upgrades, this plane could easily reach 4+ generation status within the next 5-7 years .. inshAllah


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## HAIDER

Army chief Gen Raheel Sharif inspects a newly arrived F-16 alongside Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt. PHOTO: INP


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## nomi007

F-16 aircraft under going depot-level maintenance. Ground crew are un-mounting of Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFT)

for routine inspection. CFTs once added; could increase the range of F-16 from 20-40%, depending upon the weapon configuration used

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## Informant

Block 52 baby, that's the good stuff. Stuff of nightmares.

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## Munir

HAIDER said:


> Army chief Gen Raheel Sharif inspects a newly arrived F-16 alongside Air Chief Marshal Tahir Rafique Butt. PHOTO: INP



Just try to imagine the plane when it landed and how clean and shiny it is in this picture... Even the ejection seats are new. I do not need to say more. We transfer these planes in days. We can. And that is the shocking part. And do look carefully at the backside of the canopy....

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## fatman17

i belive all future MLU's will be performed at PAC-Kamra. there are ~75 techs getting hands-on training at TAI





pair of F-16A's





F-16A on QRA fully armed





F-16B





F-16A at Anatolian Eagle

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## Windjammer

Munir said:


> Just try to imagine the plane when it landed and how clean and shiny it is in this picture... Even the ejection seats are new. I do not need to say more. We transfer these planes in days. We can. And that is the shocking part. And do look carefully at the backside of the canopy....


@Munir
Obviously the difference is very apparent which i pointed out elsewhere and can be judged between the two images below, apart from being cleaned up and receiving a fresh coat and markings, yes the seat look brand new but i didn't catch the backside of the canopy bit, the frame has obviously had work done on it.

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## nomi007

PAF PILOTS WHO SHOT DOWN AFGHAN INTRUDING PLANES DURING THE AFGHAN USSR WAR

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## HRK

This under attach document gives confirmation about the *35 MLU F-16.*







http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/pakarms.pdf

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## Manticore

H Khan at pak def said---[QUOT]

Some days old news: PAF Air Vice Marshall Sohail Aman, Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations) is in the US. Yesterday he visited Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, Arizona. He'll be traveling to LM plant at DFW, also

PAF is planning to acquire 17 more Jordanian F-16s and 14 from another source.

PAF and China now in negotiation to co-develop/produce FC-20 at PAC. FC-20 is third version of original J-10A. Chengdu has already told PLAAF that in its present facilities it can't manage the orders that PLAAF has placed. Few factors have stalled FC-20 are financial, WS-10 has not developed into a performance based engine, if the present engine is used then the both China and Pakistan have to conduct negotiations with Russia.



There are three different versions of J-10. J-10A (present production), J-10B (Testing phase) and FC-20.

Since there are production capacity issues with J-10, PLAN has received only enough aircrafts for one regiment and it is pushing to get more J-10 at faster rate which is not possible. PLAN has started to look at FC-1/JF-17 to fill the gap for its needs. If this goes through the order for FC-1/JF-17 would be close to 300 aircrafts.

China has too many aircraft projects on its plate. Suggesting that PAC and Shenyang should jointly work on J-20 project rather then proceeding with Chengdu FC-20 project. Just a little prudent thought, which is free!

PLAAn has already taken delivery of J-10A fulfilling aircrafts for one regiment, however, they are in need of more J-10A. But the Chengdu plant which produces J-10A has huge backlog of orders for PLAAF and has it made clear that they can't take more orders with the production, hence, they are in need to fulfill their requirement. They are looking towards FC-1/JF-17 to fill the gap and the total number of aircraft they require is close to 300.





I didn't mean that PLAAN are in need of FC-20

PAF was decided to get as many F-16 as possible. The issue here is again that F-16 is in the inventory for the past 30+ years and the PAF has more or less know ins and outs of this beauty of an aircraft



J-10B is J-10A with a lot of improved avionics but same engine. FC-20 is more J-10B based but with WS-10 engine, which apparently is the hurdle. PLAAF and PLAAN are in need of J-10A and if and when PAF wants it it will not be able to get a production slots in line, this is the issue.



If the engine issue is resolved then I think PAF should invest in F-31which will eventually have two-WS-10 rather then investing in J-20 which is need of rather a very powerful engine in the category of Saturn 117S.

[/QUOT]

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Manticore said:


> H Khan at pak def said---[QUOT]
> 
> Some days old news: PAF Air Vice Marshall Sohail Aman, Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations) is in the US. Yesterday he visited Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, Arizona. He'll be traveling to LM plant at DFW, also
> 
> PAF is planning to acquire 17 more Jordanian F-16s and 14 from another source.
> 
> PAF and China now in negotiation to co-develop/produce FC-20 at PAC. FC-20 is third version of original J-10A. Chengdu has already told PLAAF that in its present facilities it can't manage the orders that PLAAF has placed. Few factors have stalled FC-20 are financial, WS-10 has not developed into a performance based engine, if the present engine is used then the both China and Pakistan have to conduct negotiations with Russia.
> 
> 
> 
> There are three different versions of J-10. J-10A (present production), J-10B (Testing phase) and FC-20.
> 
> Since there are production capacity issues with J-10, PLAN has received only enough aircrafts for one regiment and it is pushing to get more J-10 at faster rate which is not possible. PLAN has started to look at FC-1/JF-17 to fill the gap for its needs. If this goes through the order for FC-1/JF-17 would be close to 300 aircrafts.
> 
> China has too many aircraft projects on its plate. Suggesting that PAC and Shenyang should jointly work on J-20 project rather then proceeding with Chengdu FC-20 project. Just a little prudent thought, which is free!
> 
> PLAAn has already taken delivery of J-10A fulfilling aircrafts for one regiment, however, they are in need of more J-10A. But the Chengdu plant which produces J-10A has huge backlog of orders for PLAAF and has it made clear that they can't take more orders with the production, hence, they are in need to fulfill their requirement. They are looking towards FC-1/JF-17 to fill the gap and the total number of aircraft they require is close to 300.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't mean that PLAAN are in need of FC-20[/QUOT]




wouldnt it be better if we joined J-20 project instead of FC-20? 5th gen is the future?

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## Armstrong

Manticore said:


> H Khan at pak def said---[QUOT]
> 
> Some days old news: PAF Air Vice Marshall Sohail Aman, Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations) is in the US. Yesterday he visited Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, Arizona. He'll be traveling to LM plant at DFW, also
> 
> PAF is planning to acquire 17 more Jordanian F-16s and 14 from another source.
> 
> PAF and China now in negotiation to co-develop/produce FC-20 at PAC. FC-20 is third version of original J-10A. Chengdu has already told PLAAF that in its present facilities it can't manage the orders that PLAAF has placed. Few factors have stalled FC-20 are financial, WS-10 has not developed into a performance based engine, if the present engine is used then the both China and Pakistan have to conduct negotiations with Russia.
> 
> 
> 
> There are three different versions of J-10. J-10A (present production), J-10B (Testing phase) and FC-20.
> 
> Since there are production capacity issues with J-10, PLAN has received only enough aircrafts for one regiment and it is pushing to get more J-10 at faster rate which is not possible. PLAN has started to look at FC-1/JF-17 to fill the gap for its needs. If this goes through the order for FC-1/JF-17 would be close to 300 aircrafts.
> 
> China has too many aircraft projects on its plate. Suggesting that PAC and Shenyang should jointly work on J-20 project rather then proceeding with Chengdu FC-20 project. Just a little prudent thought, which is free!
> 
> PLAAn has already taken delivery of J-10A fulfilling aircrafts for one regiment, however, they are in need of more J-10A. But the Chengdu plant which produces J-10A has huge backlog of orders for PLAAF and has it made clear that they can't take more orders with the production, hence, they are in need to fulfill their requirement. They are looking towards FC-1/JF-17 to fill the gap and the total number of aircraft they require is close to 300.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't mean that PLAAN are in need of FC-20[/QUOT]


 
Yaaar qasam seh can this be true ? 

Is this guy you're quoting usually spot on ?


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## Basel

If we are getting F-16s easily then we must look for future 5th gen JV with China and it should be the top of the line aircraft not 2nd tier plane like F-35, because PAF have to face very potent and resourceful adversary in future, which will be fielding a large number of 4.5, 4.5++ & 5th gent fighter with advance layered air defense. Govt. have to make funds available some how for this kind of project, because 5th gen tech is leaps ahead from its predecessor generation and its here to stay for long time.


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## Indus Falcon

Basel said:


> If we are getting F-16s easily then we must look for future 5th gen JV with China and it should be the top of the line aircraft not 2nd tier plane like F-35, because PAF have to face very potent and resourceful adversary in future, which will be fielding a large number of 4.5, 4.5++ & 5th gent fighter with advance layered air defense. Govt. have to make funds available some how for this kind of project, because 5th gen tech is leaps ahead from its predecessor generation and its here to stay for long time.


Govt. ko forsat nahi hai qaumi khazana lootnay say, aur aap 5gen ki batien kar rahe hain!

Contrary to what armchair generals think on this forum, getting the Jordanian birds was no easy task, financially speaking!

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## GreenFalcon

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> wouldnt it be better if we joined J-20 project instead of FC-20? 5th gen is the future?


Pakistan has a never had a double-engine jet like J-20 does/ J-31 a single-engine stealth plane is a different story./ There was a thread recently where a PAF marshall said that they won't purchase the j-10 but rather look into the 5th generation planes, which Im' pretty sure is going to be the J-31


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## araz

Basel said:


> If we are getting F-16s easily then we must look for future 5th gen JV with China and it should be the top of the line aircraft not 2nd tier plane like F-35, because PAF have to face very potent and resourceful adversary in future, which will be fielding a large number of 4.5, 4.5++ & 5th gent fighter with advance layered air defense. Govt. have to make funds available some how for this kind of project, because 5th gen tech is leaps ahead from its predecessor generation and its here to stay for long time.


PAFs response will depend on what is available with the chinese. You have to understand that there may be nothing available till 2022-25 as far as 5th gen platforms go. The time to act is now and PAF has grabbed it with both hands
The real question of even more interest is whether PAC will be allowed to manufacture J10B and its implications on JFT Production. This is a very interesting scenario in which true to its own colour PAF is countering the much more expensive expansion of the Eastern neighbours fleet with both quality and quantity witout breaking the bank. The other thing to think is what considerations if any will the chinese have to allow us to manufacture their pride and joy. The prospects for JFT are also getting better with a more realistic assessment of the manufacturing process of theJ10 and the time taken to rack up the numbers required. we need to wait and follow this scenario more closely

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## DESERT FIGHTER

SeanShah1003 said:


> Pakistan has a never had a double-engine jet like J-20 does/ J-31 a single-engine stealth plane is a different story./ There was a thread recently where a PAF marshall said that they won't purchase the j-10 but rather look into the 5th generation planes, which Im' pretty sure is going to be the J-31



Actually we did... even A-5 was a twin engine jet...

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## Indus Falcon

SeanShah1003 said:


> Pakistan has a never had a double-engine jet like J-20 does/ J-31 a single-engine stealth plane is a different story./ There was a thread recently where a PAF marshall said that they won't purchase the j-10 but rather look into the 5th generation planes, which Im' pretty sure is going to be the J-31


F6/ Chinese Mig 19 farmer and A5 fantan both were dual engine. But you are right we need to invest in 5th Gen ASAP!

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## GreenFalcon

araz said:


> PAFs response will depend on what isavailable with the chinese. You have to understand tbat tbere .aybe othing available till 2022-25.
> The real question of even more intefest is whether PAC will be allowed to manufacture J10B and its implications on JFT Production. This is a very interesting scenario in which true to its own colour PAF is countering the much more expensive expansion of the Eastern neighbours fleet with both quality and quantity witout rea


I agree, we should buy out as many F-16s as possible while continuing the JFT productions, plus our eastern neighbors won't get the PAK FA T-50 until 2022 until then China might have the J-31s ready for us 



DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Actually we did... even A-5 was a twin engine jet...





Abu Nasar said:


> F6/ Chinese Mig 19 farmer and A5 fantan both were dual engine. But you are right we need to invest in 5th Gen ASAP!



you're right Im sorry, I didn't know



Abu Nasar said:


> F6/ Chinese Mig 19 farmer and A5 fantan both were dual engine. But you are right we need to invest in 5th Gen ASAP!


Which 5th generation do u think is a realistic option for us? I'm thinking J-31 all the way

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## Indus Falcon

SeanShah1003 said:


> I agree, we should buy out as many F-16s as possible while continuing the JFT productions, plus our eastern neighbors won't get the PAK FA T-20 until 2022 until then China might have the J-31s ready for us
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you're right Im sorry, I didn't know
> 
> 
> Which 5th generation do u think is a realistic option for us? I'm thinking J-31 all the way


Bhai honestly speaking the Jordanian deal would have fallen apart, had pindi not intervened. So any future induction, of a new / old platform, will depend on how serious pindi is. People are going to howl, scream and maybe even ban me, but an old fool is entitled to his opinion!

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## Manticore

If the production line is at pac, it might be quicker and cheaper to get the fc20 however setting up a j10 production line is costly itself even if the chinese allow it particularly when we are concurrently making jf17 and buying old f16s

If this approach is being taken, maybe induction of 5th gen is much delayed than we had initially thought or this is just a tactic to get old f16s. If we are getting fc20, even when we might be able to buy more mlu kits, fc20 would be giving a different capability to the paf

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## Quwa

Armstrong said:


> Yaaar qasam seh can this be true ?
> 
> Is this guy you're quoting usually spot on ?


H Khan isn't a news source, he's an insider and when it comes to insider information, things can change. But he's no liar.

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## Luftwaffe

My opinion is FC-20 is something if PAF goes back to procurement plans could replace Mirage 5 ROSE and large Numbers of F-7P/PG with JF-17s. On the other hand getting FC-20 would be like killing JF-17 Program and its Future prospect so maybe the plan is in place but post 2020. I maintain Thunder should be invested into along the lines of F-16 Program for years to come, how impressive it is what Boeing is doing with F/A-18E/F [Advance Super Hornet] could be applied to Thunder in coming years when ever Funds are available.

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## Manticore

Luftwaffe said:


> My opinion is FC-20 is something if PAF goes back to procurement plans could replace Mirage 5 ROSE and large Numbers of F-7P/PG with JF-17s. On the other hand getting FC-20 would be like killing JF-17 Program and its Future prospect so maybe the plan is in place but post 2020. I maintain Thunder should be invested into along the lines of F-16 Program for years to come, how impressive it is what Boeing is doing with F/A-18E/F [Advance Super Hornet] could be applied to Thunder in coming years when ever Funds are available.


buying f16s and fc20 means that paf does not foresee the same engine enhancements, as were available for the light fighter f16 to evolve into a medium wt fighter, for jf-17


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## MastanKhan

DESERT FIGHTER said:


> Actually we did... even A-5 was a twin engine jet...


 
Sir,

Wrong answer----the a5 could not take off on its single engine----the performance of those 2 engines put together was sort of half that of the single engine JF17-----.

Just comparing this aircraft to the adf's like su30 rafale or F18's, J11's etc is in poor judgement---. So---bsically---PK has no experience in a tru twin engine.

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## araz

Luftwaffe said:


> My opinion is FC-20 is something if PAF goes back to procurement plans could replace Mirage 5 ROSE and large Numbers of F-7P/PG with JF-17s. On the other hand getting FC-20 would be like killing JF-17 Program and its Future prospect so maybe the plan is in place but post 2020. I maintain Thunder should be invested into along the lines of F-16 Program for years to come, how impressive it is what Boeing is doing with F/A-18E/F [Advance Super Hornet] could be applied to Thunder in coming years when ever Funds are available.


But the PLAAN is goiñg to buy the JFT and 300 planes means it is good enough and can be inducted quickly enough. The future prozpects remain bright and to compare JFT and its viability vis a vis J10 is unfair. However production of 2 platforms simultaneously will certainly be interesting . J10 is still a need and I agree it will replace the ROSE mirages.. As to the money that is the million dollar question. 
Araz

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## Kompromat

@Manticore @Luftwaffe

Someone is blowing smoke here. WS-10 series of engines are way too big for J-31 aircrafts. They'll be powered by WS-13 rather which are not ready yet and won't be ready anytime soon.

I've also heard that PAF is keen on RD-93MA for Thunders and a possibility of 8 'new' F-16c Block52+ on top of old ones.

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## Luftwaffe

Aeronaut said:


> @Manticore @Luftwaffe
> 
> Someone is blowing smoke here. WS-10 series of engines are way too big for J-31 aircrafts. They'll be powered by WS-13 rather which are not ready yet and won't be ready anytime soon.
> 
> I've also heard that PAF is keen on RD-93MA for Thunders and a possibility of 8 'new' F-16c Block52+ on top of old ones.



You are going to give heart attack to certain Nationalities about more F-16s new or refurbished Either and the more reliable powerful RD-93MA.

One thing is clear funds from any source; Pakistan wants atleast 100 Fighting Falcons, it make sense from experience & operational point of view and same Type in service rather than getting a new Type in short span.


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## Kompromat

Luftwaffe said:


> You are going to give heart attack to certain Nationalities about more F-16s new or refurbished Either and the more reliable powerful RD-93MA.
> 
> One thing is clear funds from any source; Pakistan wants atleast 100 Fighting Falcons, it make sense from experience & operational point of view and same Type in service rather than getting a new Type in short span.




Sounds right. F-16s *will* dominate adversery's 4th generation fleet along with a well evolved JFT fleet. PAF is all in a mood to raise it along the lines of the Gripen program.

I personally don't see FC-20s in PAF colors as they offer us no 'unique' advantages. The lack of AESA radars everyone touts so much about is taken care of by Erieye,ZDK-3,AN/TPS-77 inductions for now. At the moment we have a tactical 'advantage' over IAF in regards to territorial coverage and early warning.

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## monitor

Luftwaffe said:


> You are going to give heart attack to certain Nationalities about more F-16s new or refurbished Either and the more reliable powerful RD-93MA.
> 
> One thing is clear funds from any source; Pakistan wants atleast 100 Fighting Falcons, it make sense from experience & operational point of view and same Type in service rather than getting a new Type in short span.



According to pakdef Pakistan have infrastructure to operate around 100 F-16 so you may see more old and F-16 in you fleet .


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## Luftwaffe

monitor said:


> According to pakdef Pakistan have infrastructure to operate around 100 F-16 so you may see more old and F-16 in you fleet .



That is the exact reason to get more. PAF can maintain adequate Numbers 100+ Fleet better than EgyptianAF.

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## Donatello

Aeronaut said:


> @Manticore @Luftwaffe
> 
> Someone is blowing smoke here. WS-10 series of engines are way too big for J-31 aircrafts. They'll be powered by WS-13 rather which are not ready yet and won't be ready anytime soon.
> 
> I've also heard that PAF is keen on RD-93MA for Thunders and a possibility of 8 'new' F-16c Block52+ on top of old ones.



Getting just 8 new Block52+ doesn't make sense. How can you operate a squadron with a mix of jets? Simply either buy a 18 more (i guess the old congress approval of 36 is still valid) or scoop up used MLU, non-MLU f-16s and bring them to the same standard in the fleet.

Actually it would be better if PAF went for F-16D BLK52 with the dorsal spine. Legend says it has got some serious ECM/EW systems in place to act as a wild weasel role.


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## pursuit of happiness

Donatello said:


> Getting just 8 new Block52+ doesn't make sense. How can you operate a squadron with a mix of jets? Simply either buy a 18 more (i guess the old congress approval of 36 is still valid) or scoop up used MLU, non-MLU f-16s and bring them to the same standard in the fleet.
> 
> Actually it would be better if PAF went for F-16D BLK52 with the dorsal spine. Legend says it has got some serious ECM/EW systems in place to act as a wild weasel role.


- who are possible source /sellers for more F16 for block 52 standards


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## S.U.R.B.

When the USA can trust the Turkish Aerospace industry for the production line and MLU upgrades for the F-16, then why can't the Chinese share their workload with us?

Yes, license production and establishment phase will not ba an easy task in the start,looking at the grim picture of our economy and keeping in view our struggle with the JFT platform.
There we'll require the Chinese help.And can be settle it with a suitable bargain.
But Pakistan can generate the man power and we are up for the expansion of our industry in the future ,aren't we?

TAI started with co production of F-16s and look at their progress in all these years.


> TAI is working on over 50 military and commercial programs today. As a partner of the Airbus defence and space, TAI has been participating in the design and development activities of the Airbus A400M program with the leading European aerospace companies; namely Airbus (France, Germany, Spain and UK), EADS CASA (Spain) and FLABEL (Belgium) from the beginning of the project. TAI has accepted the production of A350XWB's winglets with the new cooperation.




^^^^ It'll take time to match that.But we must make the hay while the sun shines.Let's just not say "NO" to the business that can come our way.Our efforts on any platform other than the JFT,will do us much good on the industrial level.Just even that will be a big step forward.



While saying that, i should mention that there is no compulsion on the PAF to go and buy the AC that they can skip on for a true 5th generation fighter jet.You can do the business ,earn more experience and save your finances for the next and better purchase.
(The only difference here will be that the Turkish airforce does operate the F-16s while we will be completing the Chinese/ International orders,if any.)



The next decade will dawn with it's own requirement list,with some of the prominent air forces around the world operating their 5th generation platforms.So, lagging behind and investing our money on the wrong option can not be an acceptable plan.



At the end of this decade the JF-17 block 3 will be up as a 4.5 generation AC.We already have got the Block -52s with that the MLU of the rest of the F-16 fleet will quench our desire for any 4 or 4.5 generation platform.Obviously the 3rd one has to be the better one.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Those fear mongers on this board and on PAKDEF.ORG----who talked about the sanctions on the F16's----their mouths have been shut.

For 12 years now I have talked about the F16 being the right aircraft for the PAF---and since 2005 on this board---a year before on pakdef.org---on pakistanidefence forum etc etc etc.

It was the simple truth that pakistanis needed to envision to take out the al qaeda at the earliest possible and get what you want from the U S.

So---now---that is where we are----. At this stage---pak needs to have a minimum of 150---to 175 F16 blk 52's and MLU'd aircraft in its inventory in the next 3 years all put together.

As or the JF 17---it needs a total of 175 aircraft----- + 36 J11's.

Can pakistan get the J11's---????????

The problem is that china suddenly finds itself in a quandry----. As I have stated many a times----you plan and buy 10 years in advance in time of peace for the " supposed " wars that you might fight with your neighbours.

China realizes that it is in a fcuked up situation----there is japan on one side---taiwan maybe---but vietnam and philipines with the backing of the u s on the other side---and india openly declaring that all its major weapons purchase is to fight china----.

With small incidences escalating---china finds that its air force is woefully ill equipped to fight. It has a massive shortage of frontline Air Dominance / Air Superiority aircraft in its arsenal. Its industry is also woefully ill equipped to produce the numbers of aircraft to fill in the gap.

If today---china had double the numbers of J10's---and su 27's and su 30's and J11's---its political posturing would have been taken differently.

Also with the technology increasing in massive leaps and bounds within weeks and months----it becomes extremely difficult to decide on what is important and what is not.

To me---it seems like the chinese have been caught up in their " too clever a trap ".

Otoh----PAF has a breath of fresh air---. Somebody woke up one day and realized that there is nowhere to go but the USED F 16----refurbish it---upgrade it and W'allah you have a frontline fighter aircraft that can be used for 10 different roles in an extremely cost effective manner.

Due to russian invasion of ukraine---Sweden and norway find that they are fcuked up right now---.

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## Donatello

pursuit of happiness said:


> - who are possible source /sellers for more F16 for block 52 standards



Obviously either the manufacturer or current users.

Why are you so worried?

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## Manticore

Buying and upgrading old F-16 - Are they worth it? | Page 4
go here


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## pursuit of happiness

Manticore said:


> Buying and upgrading old F-16 - Are they worth it? | Page 4
> go here


--
thanks ...


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## Informant

Great news guys. I aint telling anything but fuckin-A deal going down.


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## Windjammer

Informant said:


> Great news guys. I aint telling anything but fuckin-A deal going down.


I know for a fact that a high level PAF delegation spent a week in the States.....guess i need to catch up.


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## Rafi

There is a chance - that another 18 F16 Block 52's could be heading our way, together with a significant number of new MLU kits. PAF absolutely loves the block 52.

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## Rahil khan

Rafi said:


> There is a chance - that another 18 F16 Block 52's could be heading our way, together with a significant number of new MLU kits. PAF absolutely loves the block 52.



Sir, you are talking about the original 36 Block 52 Viper's order, outa which Pakistan only opted for 18...and the remaining 18 Vipers which we had an option to acquire??


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## raazh

Great news, If and when it materializes; it will successfully checkmate any Rafale induction by the Indians in the immediate future and will put us in a comfortable position till J31 is inducted.


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## Rafi

Rahil khan said:


> Sir, you are talking about the original 36 Block 52 Viper's order, outa which Pakistan only opted for 18...and the remaining 18 Vipers which we had an option to acquire??



Yes - the original deal was for 36 - which 18 of which we bought. The PAF regards these aircraft very highly.

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## Rahil khan

Rafi said:


> Yes - the original deal was for 36 - which 18 of which we bought. The PAF regards these aircraft very highly.



What about US Congress sir, can't they create hurdles in that process.??


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## Rafi

Two things could be an obstacle - politics and finance, (the finance part not so much, US is offering very good terms) Ishak Daar has reassured all three Forces, that their critical Defense modernization programs will receive plenty of funding. 

Airforce
On the cards - including F16's from the US and other sources.
20 Blackhawk helicopters, funded from a new anti-terrorist fund.

Navy
F23 Frigate deal (upgraded F22p from China)
Sub deal 

Army
More Arty 
MLRS
Longer term aim long range SAM.



Rahil khan said:


> What about US Congress sir, can't they create hurdles in that process.??



Already approved by Congress, more MLU kits will need approval - but it thought will not be too much of a problem.

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## araz

Informant said:


> Great news guys. I aint telling anything but fuckin-A deal going down.


You plonker. You got yourself banned now pleaze learn to behave next time.
Keep smiling
Araz


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## ziaulislam

Rafi said:


> Two things could be an obstacle - politics and finance, (the finance part not so much, US is offering very good terms) Ishak Daar has reassured all three Forces, that their critical Defense modernization programs will receive plenty of funding.
> 
> Airforce
> On the cards - including F16's from the US and other sources.
> 20 Blackhawk helicopters, funded from a new anti-terrorist fund.
> 
> Navy
> F23 Frigate deal (upgraded F22p from China)
> Sub deal
> 
> Army
> More Arty
> MLRS
> Longer term aim long range SAM.
> 
> 
> 
> Already approved by Congress, more MLU kits will need approval - but it thought will not be too much of a problem.


The budget says otherwise, due to strong fiscal gains needed under IMF, the govt simply cannot finance any type of military deals under budget. unless army creates some space by decreasing it funding and man power costs or USA rapidly clears all the coalition support fund(may be). the Chinese deals may be pushed under loans but USA ..., i dont see the new 18 f-16s (i will be stunned if govt can pay 1.5 billion dollars for them..). i mean this year budget saw just a 10% increase barely enough to keep with inflation.


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## nomi007

DB-110






wish paf purchase 28 f-16s block-52+ from usa


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## Side-Winder

I made it 





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152220349987663

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## Indus Falcon

Side-Winder said:


> I made it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152220349987663


Appreciate the effort. Thank You!


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## Basel

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> Wrong answer----the a5 could not take off on its single engine----the performance of those 2 engines put together was sort of half that of the single engine JF17-----.
> Just comparing this aircraft to the adf's like su30 rafale or F18's, J11's etc is in poor judgement---. So---bsically---PK has no experience in a tru twin engine.



You may be right regarding not operating true twin engine plane but PAF pilots are flying Su-30s extensively in China so they know about twin engine planes well.

I have one question which arise after I read a post by an Indian member on PDF on some thread, in which he said that our new/MLUed F-16s don't have sensor fusion capacity and their upgraded Mirages and other planes will have it. Can please some one put some light on it in details, please.


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## Jungibaaz

Hold your horses people, the option for the 18 has been here for a while. We have an established history on this forum of jumping the gun. Take it easy.

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## Rahil khan

Abu Nasar said:


> Appreciate the effort. Thank You!



Wonderful job. Love it.

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## Quwa

The PAF would love to exercise the option for 18 Block-52+ as having 36 new-built F-16s was part of the original plan, but financial obstacles remain. I doubt the PAF would burn $1.5bn when it can use that money to accelerate JF-17. IMHO the only way PAF would get these additional F-16s is IF the US decides to foot the bill in some way.


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## fatman17

Mark Sien said:


> The PAF would love to exercise the option for 18 Block-52+ as having 36 new-built F-16s was part of the original plan, but financial obstacles remain. I doubt the PAF would burn $1.5bn when it can use that money to accelerate JF-17. IMHO the only way PAF would get these additional F-16s is IF the US decides to foot the bill in some way.


 
thats not going to happen - all F-16s have been purchased with own funds. US only provided FMS for the MLU kits but that also 50%.

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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> thats not going to happen - all F-16s have been purchased with own funds. US only provided FMS for the MLU kits but that also 50%.


Probably, but US policy could lean to it if it were in their interests. It just depends on how much the US is willing to pay to keep PAF content.


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## Thorough Pro

We should thank Indians for electing Modi the Terrorist ... LOL


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## najeeb ahmed

great technology use in this jet... first pakistani powerfull jet


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## Manticore



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## nomi007



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## nomi007

*F-16B MLU from No.11 Sqn dropping a pair of 2000lbs each Mk-84 bombs at target. 
MLU F-16s are operational in two squadrons of PAF.*

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## Donatello

PAF should really change the paint scheme. Like some units should be desert camouflaged.


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## Windjammer

I am hearing news that PAF may have provision of up to six Block-52s.
After No 11 (Arrows), No 9 (Griffins) have also completed their transition on their MLU aircraft and should soon be returning to home base.

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## HRK

Windjammer said:


> *I am hearing news that PAF may have provision of up to six Block-52s.*
> After No 11 (Arrows), No 9 (Griffins) have also completed their transition on their MLU aircraft and should soon be returning to home base.



plz explain further ...... if possible ..


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## Windjammer

HRK said:


> plz explain further ...... if possible ..


All i can say at the moment is that couple of weeks earlier, high level officials from PAF were in US, who also visited the LM works. A source tells me that albeit PAF had options for further 18 Block-52s but due to financial reasons, it may be acquiring around six.

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## MM_Haider

Windjammer said:


> All i can say at the moment is that couple of weeks earlier, high level officials from PAF were in US, who also visited the LM works. A source tells me that albeit PAF had options for further 18 Block-52s but due to financial reasons, it may be acquiring around six.



USA can block the navigation system(s) or jam other electronics remotely, as and when required. GPS navigation can for sure, be blocked and it is possible technically. Let's suppose Pakistan has to attack some base in India with these F-16s and USA is not happy with that and black outs the F-16s then what is the use? 

How true is that and what is PAF's counter strategy?


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## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> All i can say at the moment is that couple of weeks earlier, high level officials from PAF were in US, who also visited the LM works. A source tells me that albeit PAF had options for further 18 Block-52s but due to financial reasons, it may be acquiring around six.



Hmm, i hope all six are D versions for wild weasel roles. Also what about acquiring more from Jordan and the 14 pending from USA? They should be enough to boost f-16 squadron strength to 6 squadrons!

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## Windjammer

MM_Haider said:


> USA can block the navigation system(s) or jam other electronics remotely, as and when required. GPS navigation can for sure, be blocked and it is possible technically. Let's suppose Pakistan has to attack some base in India with these F-16s and USA is not happy with that and black outs the F-16s then what is the use?
> 
> How true is that and what is PAF's counter strategy?


Admittedly not my forte but the few connected guys i have spoken to explained it in their own way. We hear of F-16s containing a certain ''chip'' but then even your mobile phone has a chip and if all above was true then who would trust and buy the American weapons considering they can be switched off by the Americans....wouldn't that mean reading last rights to the US weapon industry.



Donatello said:


> Hmm, i hope all six are D versions for wild weasel roles. Also what about acquiring more from Jordan and the 14 pending from USA? They should be enough to boost f-16 squadron strength to 6 squadrons!


I can confirm that the PAF officials were in US for a week, let's wait for the rest, however if confirmed then no doubt there will be ''D'' models as it's the most capable machine in the region.

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## MM_Haider

Windjammer said:


> Admittedly not my forte but the few connected guys i have spoken to explained it in their own way. We hear of F-16s containing a certain ''chip'' but then even your mobile phone has a chip and if all above was true then who would trust and buy the American weapons considering they can be switched off by the Americans....wouldn't that mean reading last rights to the US weapon industry.



I discussed this with an ex army aviation engineer, now days my colleague after retirement, and he confirmed this.. it is true that as soon pakistan crosses the red line (conflict of interests with USA) the F-16s shall not be of any use... i believe for this very purpose India don't use American jets..


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## Cherokee

MM_Haider said:


> I discussed this with an ex army aviation engineer, now days my colleague after retirement, and he confirmed this.. it is true that as soon pakistan crosses the red line (conflict of interests with USA) the F-16s shall not be of any use... i believe for this very purpose India don't use American jets..




Yes that is the reason . Even when we wanted to diversify from Russian Defense industry we headed for Europe not US.


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## Donatello

MM_Haider said:


> I discussed this with an ex army aviation engineer, now days my colleague after retirement, and he confirmed this.. it is true that as soon pakistan crosses the red line (conflict of interests with USA) the F-16s shall not be of any use... i believe for this very purpose India don't use American jets..



Fighting with India, how does it affect US interests? Can you imagine the downfall of American defence exports when they find out that these expensive toys are no longer useful? With India, rest assured, they will work to their full capability.

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## MM_Haider

Cherokee said:


> Yes that is the reason . Even when we wanted to diversify from Russian Defense industry we headed for Europe not US.



hmm.. but if we know this shortcoming, i sure am PAF also knows it.. and have any counter strategy, like installing Inertial Navigation System etc ... but can somebody shed more light on this.. ??



Donatello said:


> Fighting with India, how does it affect US interests? Can you imagine the downfall of American defence exports when they find out that these expensive toys are no longer useful? With India, rest assured, they will work to their full capability.



Come on!.. During 1971 war, the seventh Air Craft Career from USA never reached indian ocean which could have been game changer, despite the treaty.. even if there is 1% chance of betrayal from USA, is it worth risking and spending money on these F-16s? I don't think so..


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## Rahil khan

MM_Haider said:


> I discussed this with an ex army aviation engineer, now days my colleague after retirement, and he confirmed this.. it is true that as soon pakistan crosses the red line (conflict of interests with USA) the F-16s shall not be of any use... i believe for this very purpose India don't use American jets..


Sir, what's the red line which Pakistan can cross in near future ? What's the worst case scenario?


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## Luftwaffe

Donatello said:


> Hmm, i hope all six are D versions for wild weasel roles. Also what about acquiring more from Jordan and the 14 pending from USA? They should be enough to boost f-16 squadron strength to 6 squadrons!



See that is one big hassle looking for more Aircrafts as most of other fleet are on the verge of obsoleteness [F-7P], The foolishness of Musharraf lead to this, slashing F-16s Numbers from 77 to 28/32. Today your fleet would have been around 130 strong. US honored the contract they were eager to sell unlimited number of F-16s in early-mid 2000s. Now who is to be blamed?


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## Windjammer

MM_Haider said:


> I discussed this with an ex army aviation engineer, now days my colleague after retirement, and he confirmed this.. it is true that as soon pakistan crosses the red line (conflict of interests with USA) the F-16s shall not be of any use... i believe for this very purpose India don't use American jets..


Dude what would an PAA guy know about an F-16 Biology, PAF waited and pursued for the Vipers for some 15 years, If there was any such doubt, you think those at helm would risk those hard come billions.

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## MM_Haider

Rahil khan said:


> Sir, what's the red line which Pakistan can cross in near future ? What's the worst case scenario?



I wanted to discuss some technical details but we are getting indulged into a hypothesis of Red Line... I already gave an example that attacking India with these F-16s might be a red line, as per the history and America's interest in India's .. or attacking an Afghan base in case of aggression from western front... or OBL type operation by USAF.. there are n number of possibilities..



Windjammer said:


> Dude what would an PAA guy know about an F-16 Biology, PAF waited and pursued for the Vipers for some 15 years, If there was any such doubt, you think those at helm would risk those hard come billions.



he has worked with PAF on secondment as well, which is common in military.. so we assume that there is no risk albeit USA can black these F-16s out as per requirement... i don't buy it..


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## Donatello

[quote="MM_Haider, post: 5734184, member: 34932"
Come on!.. During 1971 war, the seventh Air Craft Career from USA never reached indian ocean which could have been game changer, despite the treaty.. even if there is 1% chance of betrayal from USA, is it worth risking and spending money on these F-16s? I don't think so..[/quote]

This has been debated to death. PAF wouldn't invest in an asset that it can't use against India. So please don't derail the thread here.

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## MM_Haider

Donatello said:


> [quote="MM_Haider, post: 5734184, member: 34932"
> Come on!.. During 1971 war, the seventh Air Craft Career from USA never reached indian ocean which could have been game changer, despite the treaty.. even if there is 1% chance of betrayal from USA, is it worth risking and spending money on these F-16s? I don't think so..



Can you please share the link of that thread in which it was discussed. Thanks.


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## Cherokee

MM_Haider said:


> Come on!.. During 1971 war, the seventh Air Craft Career from USA never reached indian ocean which could have been game changer, despite the treaty.. even if there is 1% chance of betrayal from USA, is it worth risking and spending money on these F-16s? I don't think so..



so did russian Submarine which kept them at bay . but that was height of cold war and US needed Pakistan to stop Russia from gaining foothold in South Asia via Afghanistan . Things have changed a lot now  . Like they say there are no constant enemies and no constant friends in geo politics .


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## Donatello

MM_Haider said:


> Can you please share the link of that thread in which it was discussed. Thanks.



You can use the search function.


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## Windjammer

Cherokee said:


> Yes that is the reason . Even when we wanted to diversify from Russian Defense industry we headed for Europe not US.


C-130, C-17....Apache ???

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## Cherokee

Windjammer said:


> C-130, C-17....Apache ???



Two are Air refeullers one attack heli . We will never have our frontline fighter aircraft from united states .


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## MM_Haider

Donatello said:


> You can use the search function.



i did but this has not been discussed explicitly.. if i am missing something you help me out.. and in my opinion this thread is best place to discuss it.. how is it derailing the thread. ?? lol


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## Windjammer

Cherokee said:


> Two are Air refeullers one attack heli . We will never have our frontline fighter aircraft from united states .


Proves how little you know about military aviation....they are not refuelers but Cargo/Transport aircraft.

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## Cherokee

Windjammer said:


> Proves how little you know about military aviation....they are not refuelers but Cargo/Transport aircraft.

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## Donatello

MM_Haider said:


> i did but this has not been discussed explicitly.. if i am missing something you help me out.. and in my opinion this thread is best place to discuss it.. how is it derailing the thread. ?? lol



This thread is to discuss anything related to f-16s in PAF service. While the issue of kill switch includes that, since it has not been verified, it cannot be discussed as a fact here. It's a big topic on its own and that's why there were separate discussions on it. Try searching for f-16 kill switch in the search function, you'll get results. Please don't ruin the current discussion going on here. You are free to open a new thread on this topic, otherwise it will attract Indian trolls just like ants go after honey.

Please keep the thread related to only F-16s in PAF service. Don't bring other topics here.

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## kaku1

Cherokee said:


> Two are Air refeullers one attack heli . We will never have our frontline fighter aircraft from united states .



Bro, thats not air-refuellers, C-130 is medium Transport aircraft, and C-17 is strategic airlifter.

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## Windjammer

Cherokee said:


>



Dear God......that's C-17 getting refueled, it's not THE mother ship.

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## Donatello

kaku1 said:


> Bro, thats not air-refuellers, C-130 is medium Transport aircraft, and C-17 is strategic airlifter.



No body cares, this is F-16 thread.

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## araz

MM_Haider said:


> USA can block the navigation system(s) or jam other electronics remotely, as and when required. GPS navigation can for sure, be blocked and it is possible technically. Let's suppose Pakistan has to attack some base in India with these F-16s and USA is not happy with that and black outs the F-16s then what is the use?
> 
> How true is that and what is PAF's counter strategy?


Sorry Haider but this is not realistic. Although theoretically possible no country would like to see its product loosing out especially a world renouned product. Do you realise what a bad influence it would have on US defence industries if its pride and joy lost out to some other country, s fighters/missiles. They would go bankrupt. Secondly they will only end up gaining from a real encounter between MKIs and F16s and even Rafales. So tbeoretically possible but practically a bad move. We are NOT going to go against the US and as long as we dont nothing of the sort will happen. What is likely is embargoes which the western world would impose on both the parties to force them to stop fighting and severe international pressures would be applied for the 2 countries to come to tbe negotiating table.

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## MastanKhan

MM_Haider said:


> I discussed this with an ex army aviation engineer, now days my colleague after retirement, and he confirmed this.. it is true that as soon pakistan crosses the red line (conflict of interests with USA) the F-16s shall not be of any use... i believe for this very purpose India don't use American jets..



Sir,

That ex army aviation engineer is an idiot of the third degree---. L M is a private industry and it does not take that kind of stupidities into consideration.

Pakistan has no conflict of interest with the USA and the F16's will fly straight and true and perform their jobs that they were designed to do in a war with india---on either side of the border.

No american defence contractor would accept to see their weapons system taken out by the russian or any other weapons system in conflict.

If it does happen---then the american defence industry is doomed forever---no nation will trust it---and if the american defence industry is doomed---then the U S economy is doomed---.

Worst comes to worst---with any conflict even with the U S----still these aircraft will perform to their best---100%---the U S may have the anecdote to jam the incoming missiles and transmission----other than that---they cannot do much---.



MM_Haider said:


> Come on!.. During 1971 war, the seventh Air Craft Career from USA never reached indian ocean which could have been game changer, despite the treaty.. even if there is 1% chance of betrayal from USA, is it worth risking and spending money on these F-16s? I don't think so..



Sir,

The 7th fleet did not reach indian ocean intentionally---because the americans understood that it was a FIGHT BETWEEN TWO BROTHERS---nothing would have changed that outcome---but when india thought of attacking west pakistan---the message from Nixon was very clear---india would be nuc'd if it moved.

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## MastanKhan

Cherokee said:


> so did russian Submarine which kept them at bay . but that was height of cold war and US needed Pakistan to stop Russia from gaining foothold in South Asia via Afghanistan . Things have changed a lot now  . Like they say there are no constant enemies and no constant friends in geo politics .



Sir,

No russian subs could keep them at bay----. It was for the reasons I have posted----simple and stupid----.

If there were any rusian subs in the area---they were tracked by the american subs---.

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## MM_Haider

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> That ex army aviation engineer is an idiot of the third degree---. L M is a private industry and it does not take that kind of stupidities into consideration.
> 
> Pakistan has no conflict of interest with the USA and the F16's will fly straight and true and perform their jobs that they were designed to do in a war with india---on either side of the border.
> 
> No american defence contractor would accept to see their weapons system taken out by the russian or any other weapons system in conflict.
> 
> If it does happen---then the american defence industry is doomed forever---no nation will trust it---and if the american defence industry is doomed---then the U S economy is doomed---.
> 
> Worst comes to worst---with any conflict even with the U S----still these aircraft will perform to their best---100%---the U S may have the anecdote to jam the incoming missiles and transmission----other than that---they cannot do much---.
> 
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
> The 7th fleet did not reach indian ocean intentionally---because the americans understood that it was a FIGHT BETWEEN TWO BROTHERS---nothing would have changed that outcome---but when india thought of attacking west pakistan---the message from Nixon was very clear---india would be nuc'd if it moved.



i didn't really want to comment on it because somebody thinks it would kind of derail the thread. But again, he is idiot or not, we shouldn't be judgmental. .. point is NOT that LM wouldn't do that due to such and such and reasons.. point is can they do it? what i understand from here, the answer is yes.. !!! and for the worst case scenario, what are PAF's mitigation measures.. no answer till now. may be there are..


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## Rafi

There is really a good chance of further F16 both new and MLU entering PAF, the US wishes to build up our forces - so as to make sure that the Pakistani Armed Forces are strong enough to forestall the Nuclear option, ie a negotiated ceasefire.


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## Last Samuri

Master Khan

You live in surreal world if you think the threat of sanctions on F16s does not exist.

You dont undestand geo politics or you have buried your head in the sand.

Pakistan is no longer a usa ally that the americans trust and have confidence with. thanks to OBL raid.
USA is at war with ISLAM according to your own religion. Pakistan is a islamic state
USA india relations are very strong and indians business people are influential in washington
USA INDIA ISRAELI NEXUS. etc etc etc.

WHAT IT MEANS for F16

You buy them but in war with india USA will not rushing in supplies. They will not be sending in thie CBG as in 1971.

USA wil do what they did during KARGIL telling you to cease fire.

THEY have more clout over you guys cause you rely on their money and grant aid.

THEY WILL SQEEZE you harder.

TO STOP and they will deny you spares.

" THIS IS WHY THE MMRCS contestants F18 super hornets with AESA & F16 block 70IN DESPITE BEING CHEAPER by 50% was declined by the indian military"

our planners dont want this risk.

Israel & Russia will gurantee us spares in a indo pak war
China will gurantee you spares in a indo pak war
USA will *not gurantee* you spares

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## Rafi

Last Samuri said:


> Master Khan
> 
> You live in surreal world if you think the threat of sanctions on F16s does not exist.
> 
> You dont undestand geo politics or you have buried your head in the sand.
> 
> Pakistan is no longer a usa ally that the americans trust and have confidence with. thanks to OBL raid.
> USA is at war with ISLAM according to your own religion. Pakistan is a islamic state
> USA india relations are very strong and indians business people are influential in washington
> USA INDIA ISRAELI NEXUS. etc etc etc.
> 
> WHAT IT MEANS for F16
> 
> You buy them but in war with india USA will not rushing in supplies. They will not be sending in thie CBG as in 1971.
> 
> USA wil do what they did during KARGIL telling you to cease fire.
> 
> THEY have more clout over you guys cause you rely on their money and grant aid.
> 
> THEY WILL SQEEZE you harder.
> 
> TO STOP and they will deny you spares.
> 
> " THIS IS WHY THE MMRCS contestants F18 super hornets with AESA & F16 block 70IN DESPITE BEING CHEAPER by 50% was declined by the indian military"
> 
> our planners dont want this risk.
> 
> Israel & Russia will gurantee us spares in a indo pak war
> China will gurantee you spares in a indo pak war
> USA will *not gurantee* you spares



The US also knows that a relatively less strong "conventionally" armed Pakistan - raises the thresh hold for nuclear, as the Afghan war ends, the US will likely arm Pakistan to strengthen state power, and also balance india.

The Chinese will also do the same, alongside with indigenous efforts, don't forget the 4th Khushab Plutonium reactor is coming on line.

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## Bratva

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> That ex army aviation engineer is an idiot of the third degree---. L M is a private industry and it does not take that kind of stupidities into consideration.
> 
> Pakistan has no conflict of interest with the USA and the F16's will fly straight and true and perform their jobs that they were designed to do in a war with india---on either side of the border.
> 
> No american defence contractor would accept to see their weapons system taken out by the russian or any other weapons system in conflict.
> 
> If it does happen---then the american defence industry is doomed forever---no nation will trust it---and if the american defence industry is doomed---then the U S economy is doomed---.
> 
> Worst comes to worst---with any conflict even with the U S----still these aircraft will perform to their best---100%---the U S may have the anecdote to jam the incoming missiles and transmission----other than that---they cannot do much---.
> 
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
> The 7th fleet did not reach indian ocean intentionally---because the americans understood that it was a FIGHT BETWEEN TWO BROTHERS---nothing would have changed that outcome---but when india thought of attacking west pakistan---the message from Nixon was very clear---india would be nuc'd if it moved.



Sir Jee, despite NSA bugging Cisco, Juniper routing products and firewalls (Top Secret National Security Agency (NSA) JETPLOW firmware persistence implant (backdoor) for Cisco firewalls

Microsoft, google, apple secretly helping NSA. AT&T and other Telco's allowing NSA to install secret boxes in their core. Have nation or nations trust dwindle on those corporations after Edward Snowden revelations how major tech companies helping NSA to spy on foreign countries or they are still buying american tech equipment despite knowing NSA could exploit their devices?

Tailored Access Operations of NSA is responsible for implanting bugs in devices and we have American senator on record assuring Senate hearing in 2006 that we will not allow F-16 to be used against the terms proscribed in agreement.

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## Last Samuri

Get real Rafi

USA does not give a rats arse about a nuclear war in south asia.

They worry about business trade and encircling china.

ONLY USA INTERESTS matter.

USA wants a strong india to counter china

They are not overly concerned about pakistan balancing india having already acknowledeged india as a strong powerful strategic ally for this century.

YOU SEE wat you like to believe

deep down you pakistanis mistrust the YANKS

Wether you guys will believe this or not i dont care

BUT USA does not have pakistani interests at heart.

The twin towers WOT and OBL raid has left massive distrust between USA and Pakistan.

HECK THE USA where offering india everything MMMRCA including TOT and license building of the super duper F16 block 70.

YET the distrusting indians said no thanks USA we know you will not support us in a war with china or Pakistan.

KEEP YOUR TECHNOLOGY

YOU guys have no choice. its F16 or nothing

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## araz

mafiya said:


> Sir Jee, despite NSA bugging Cisco, Juniper routing products and firewalls (Top Secret National Security Agency (NSA) JETPLOW firmware persistence implant (backdoor) for Cisco firewalls
> 
> Microsoft, google, apple secretly helping NSA. AT&T and other Telco's allowing NSA to install secret boxes in their core. Have nation or nations trust dwindle on those corporations after Edward Snowden revelations how major tech companies helping NSA to spy on foreign countries or they are still buying american tech equipment despite knowing NSA could exploit their devices?
> 
> Tailored Access Operations of NSA is responsible for implanting bugs in devices and we have American senator on record assuring Senate hearing in 2006 that we will not allow F-16 to be used against the terms proscribed in agreement.


Regarding the last sentence do you think that it is proscribed that India will not be attacked/ defended against?. Can you assure me that this was the case and PAF still went ahead and bought F16s. If it is then there should be mass court martial and all the involved parties should be hanged. 
@Last Samuri.
The question is not one of embargoes whi h will be levelled against you as welll if you intend using the Rafale and M2Ks. This is the way of the world. You are right in that currentpy we dont have a tangible cost effective option. But you know the benefit of numbers which is what PAF is aiming at. The fact remains that the 16s are a formidable adversary and will give a serious headache to any of the AFs 4th gen. Fighters. Whether the US Squeezes our nuts or not the french will also be after you as well.Secondlly the more desperate Pakistan gets the more lower will be the nuclear threshold. My worst fear is that with the currrent mistrust we may not even see a conventional war at all. This would be a disaster of mammoth proportions.
Araz


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## nangyale

Last Samuri said:


> " THIS IS WHY THE MMRCS contestants F18 super hornets with AESA & F16 block 70IN DESPITE BEING CHEAPER by 50% was declined by the indian military"
> 
> *our planners dont want this risk.
> 
> Israel & Russia will gurantee us spares in a indo pak war*
> China will gurantee you spares in a indo pak war
> USA will *not gurantee* you spares



We have a false flager. An Indian pretending to be British.
@Jungibaaz @Aeronaut @Emmie @WebMaster

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## Last Samuri

French don't put sanctions on their friends.

That is a USA policy which the usa has excrcised on Pakistan more than once.

But you have no choice you want the grant aid so you put up with the threat.

If you had money you would drop the falcons for j10 typhoon or rafael. 

We all know that much

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## Viper0011.

Last Samuri said:


> Master Khan
> You live in surreal world if you think the threat of sanctions on F16s does not exist.
> You dont undestand geo politics or you have buried your head in the sand.
> Pakistan is no longer a usa ally that the americans trust and have confidence with. thanks to OBL raid.
> USA is at war with ISLAM according to your own religion. Pakistan is a islamic state
> USA india relations are very strong and indians business people are influential in washington
> USA INDIA ISRAELI NEXUS. etc etc etc.
> WHAT IT MEANS for F16
> You buy them but in war with india USA will not rushing in supplies. They will not be sending in thie CBG as in 1971.
> USA wil do what they did during KARGIL telling you to cease fire.
> THEY have more clout over you guys cause you rely on their money and grant aid.
> THEY WILL SQEEZE you harder.
> TO STOP and they will deny you spares.
> " THIS IS WHY THE MMRCS contestants F18 super hornets with AESA & F16 block 70IN DESPITE BEING CHEAPER by 50% was declined by the indian military"
> our planners dont want this risk.
> Israel & Russia will gurantee us spares in a indo pak war
> China will gurantee you spares in a indo pak war
> USA will *not gurantee* you spares



Just reading your post, I can see you are emotionally challenged or you are on your periods. Pick one. But here's some explanation:
1) You don't understand JACK about the Unites States and its dealings with others. The US is NOT at War with Islam. With the exception of Afghanistan and Iraq in the past, we haven't had any wars with anyone. In fact, with almost al Muslim nations in the middle east and around the middle east, we are friends, have military bases, trade and relationships, etc, etc.

The US constitution, government and the society guarantees MUCH MORE respect, independence and freedom to its Muslim citizens than your Indian government does to your own Muslim minority. And your Muslim minority is about 30 times more than Muslims in the US. But an average Muslim family suffers to even get an apartment for rental in India (you tube Indian Muslims or Christians being persecuted in India, etc and you'll see results)

2) The F-16's: The US considers Pakistan an ally (but with a rocky relationship over decades). That still hasn't stopped the US from supporting common Pakistanis with regards to building schools, medical facilities, setting up energy and other industries, etc, etc (long list of welfare projects with American investments), PLUS, supporting the military with weapons acquisitions, training, helping setup country terrorism force and training, etc,etc.

When the US didn't want to sell the F-16's, it said so to Pakistan. When the US did decide to sell those, it did so with all honesty. Our F-16's are used by like 2 dozen air forces to guard their airspace with total trust on American jets. You think we'll let an old ally like Pakistan down and create bad reputation for one of the best military jets in the history that's our products that protects many countries from their enemies??? Use your head. You have some stuff left in it I think.

The US has an issue with Pakistan not cleaning up the terrorist infrastructure by Afghanistan's border. That the Pakistani military were considering the 'Strategic Depth'. History tells you that the same strategic depth bit Pakistan way more than anyone else, the country's progress had stopped till last year due to bad security situation and daily terrorism. 
The US kept telling us this would happen but no one listened. 

Now, the Pak military has seen the results of ignoring such a critical issue and it is hitting the terrorists hard, this one issue will be cleared up between the two countries and Pakistan will emerge as a much stronger and modern democracy. The investment has already started to flow into Pakistan from the US businesses.

If you think the US didn't care about Pakistan, you are stupi*d. Pakistan's relations with the US are many decades old and they are like any other relationship filled with challenges. But Pakistan is one of the most strategic ally for decades.
The US is extremely concerned about a nuclear conflict in this region. To save millions of common people, the US will put a boot up anyone's as*s to avoid a nuclear confrontation and that's true for India also. No matter how deep the "strategic relationship" you think may exist with India (In Indian minds, there is none, the US is just a cash cow and you are milking it for as long as India can milk it). 
Next: No country should fight wars because of a supportive aircraft carrier. In fact, Pakistan and India wen to wars three times. I hope there won't be a forth one as the industry, trade, growth and population from this region will suffer or majority of it would disappear.
Please keep the grandiose imagination about the US and its dealings with Pakistan out of the topic. The F-16 limitations in your mind and the conspiracy theory are two different subjects and aren't needed in this thread.

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## Last Samuri

Leaving this thread guys its causing offence to members sorry


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## araz

Last Samuri said:


> French don't put sanctions on their friends.
> 
> That is a USA policy which the usa has excrcised on Pakistan more than once.
> 
> But you have no choice you want the grant aid so you put up with the threat.
> 
> If you had money you would drop the falcons for j10 typhoon or rafael.
> 
> We all know that much


You dont know how wrong you are. The french do and will impose embargoes if required. They did it during the Falkalnds war and in 2002 to us. They will do it again to India if required. 
Araz


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## Donatello

Last Samuri said:


> Leaving this thread guys its causing offence to members sorry



Good lord that sanity prevailed!!

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## MastanKhan

MM_Haider said:


> i didn't really want to comment on it because somebody thinks it would kind of derail the thread. But again, he is idiot or not, we shouldn't be judgmental. .. point is NOT that LM wouldn't do that due to such and such and reasons.. point is can they do it? what i understand from here, the answer is yes.. !!! and for the worst case scenario, what are PAF's mitigation measures.. no answer till now. may be there are..


 
Hi,

If such a thing existed it would have come out in wiki leaks-----. Paf has already flown 'red hot test missions' across the border just to make sure---nothing came up---the aircraft performed as it was supposed to.

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## MastanKhan

Last Samuri said:


> Master Khan
> " THIS IS WHY THE MMRCS contestants F18 super hornets with AESA & F16 block 70IN DESPITE BEING CHEAPER by 50% was declined by the indian military"


 
Hi,

Just because you guys pissed off the u s defence industry---you made sure for us that the american weapons will perform TRUE.

In case of war, our minimum inventory cn hold for 90 days---. US --- as it moves out of afg --- will b e more dependant on pak.

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## fatman17

*Pakistani F-16 downs Indian Searcher II UAV*
June 7, 2002 (by Lieven Dewitte) - *Pakistani F-16 shot down 1 Indian Seeker-II UAV withan AIM-9L on June 7th. This is perhaps the first air combat engagement of a manned and unmanned aircraft. *



The name of the pilot is Zulfiqar.

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistani F-16 downs Indian Searcher II UAV*
> June 7, 2002 (by Lieven Dewitte) - *Pakistani F-16 shot down 1 Indian Seeker-II UAV withan AIM-9L on June 7th. This is perhaps the first air combat engagement of a manned and unmanned aircraft. *
> The name of the pilot is Zulfiqar.


Details in this thread and below is image of the pilot, WING COMMANDER ZULFIQAR (ZULFI)

*Scramble Scramble Scramble*

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## Donatello

@Windjammer 

Hey, i was reading about the scenario where AVM Shahid Latif was able to lock on to a US Naval fighter pilot, while flying his F-16.........do you seem to know who the pilot was and what was it about?


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## Windjammer

Donatello said:


> @Windjammer
> 
> Hey, i was reading about the scenario where AVM Shahid Latif was able to lock on to a US Naval fighter pilot, while flying his F-16.........do you seem to know who the pilot was and what was it about?


Obviously during some joint exercise, apart from our F-16s fleecing, EFT, F-15, in the past our F-7s have locked on to F/A-18s.

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## PiyaraPakistan

fatman17 said:


> *Pakistani F-16 downs Indian Searcher II UAV*
> June 7, 2002 (by Lieven Dewitte) - *Pakistani F-16 shot down 1 Indian Seeker-II UAV withan AIM-9L on June 7th. This is perhaps the first air combat engagement of a manned and unmanned aircraft. *
> 
> 
> 
> The name of the pilot is Zulfiqar.


Sir i am one of the eye witness of that event, On that night i was smoking on our roof suddenly in the position of 02 O'clock towards east i noticed bright light with little sound, after that i was thinking that perhaps it is meteor or something else but in morning when i saw the news about Pakistan shot down Indian Spy plane i was very happy that i have catch that moment with my eyes. Most interesting part is that whenever i shared it with my friends they often make my fun that how's it possible that you living in Lahore observed that event which happened somewhere around Kasur. But till today i am 100% sure that i have watched it live.

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## PiyaraPakistan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If such a thing existed it would have come out in wiki leaks-----. *Paf has already flown 'red hot test missions' across the border just to make sure---nothing came up---the aircraft performed as it was supposed to*.


Sir it means that there was some doubt in the mind of PAF guys (In "Red hot test Mission" context). Am i right sir?


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## Munir

Since Masta Khan posted... Indeed our Cobra's had top cover. Karzai was informed but still pissed. He threatens to shoot us down next time (what an idiot). This shows that Karzai is just a puppet of India and is responsible for not only millions of refugees (clearly he is not interested in his Afghans) but also for terrorism in Pakistan. These Afghans will be eliminated from now on.

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## Kompromat

Keep bombing, he'll make emotional speeches and shut up.

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## Dazzler

Munir said:


> He threatens to shoot us down next time (what an idiot).




intrigued at Karzai, will shoot em down but ----with ---------exactly------ what??

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

The indians don't understand that the F16 is the pride of united states air force---and the pride of the US defence industrial complex.

The india pakistan conflict will be the only conflict where the united states can truly judge the performance of their F16's---its electronic package and its weapons system against the primo the su30---. This will be the only time that the true picture of the combat would come out in black and white----and alongwith pakistan---the united states is also confident of what the F16 can do in this arena.

All these rumors are to instill fear and uncertainty in the minds of the pak public so that they may not get the most potent aircraft suitable to them.

If pak cannot get the used / re-furbished / mlu'd F16's and cannot afford anything else---then who benefits and who gets hurt---.

It is india that benefits and pak that gets hurt---. That is why the indians are crying out on top of their lungs----" kill switches "----let them yell. 

The question that needs to be asked is---are the indians secure enough in their knowledge about the kill switches that they would want to make the strike.

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## Munir

If we can manufacture JF17 then I suppose we can test F16 block52...

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## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The indians don't understand that the F16 is the pride of united states air force---and the pride of the US defence industrial complex.
> 
> The india pakistan conflict will be the only conflict where the united states can truly judge the performance of their F16's---its electronic package and its weapons system against the primo the su30---. This will be the only time that the true picture of the combat would come out in black and white----and alongwith pakistan---the united states is also confident of what the F16 can do in this arena.
> 
> All these rumors are to instill fear and uncertainty in the minds of the pak public so that they may not get the most potent aircraft suitable to them.
> 
> If pak cannot get the used / re-furbished / mlu'd F16's and cannot afford anything else---then who benefits and who gets hurt---.
> 
> It is india that benefits and pak that gets hurt---. That is why the indians are crying out on top of their lungs----" kill switches "----let them yell.
> 
> The question that needs to be asked is---are the indians secure enough in their knowledge about the kill switches that they would want to make the strike.




Indians don't understand anything. For them LCA is match more than F-16s C/Ds and SU30 just arrived from a mission to Mars. If India doesn't use it or produce it, it's not good enough.



Munir said:


> Since Masta Khan posted... Indeed our Cobra's had top cover. Karzai was informed but still pissed. He threatens to shoot us down next time (what an idiot). This shows that Karzai is just a puppet of India and is responsible for not only millions of refugees (clearly he is not interested in his Afghans) but also for terrorism in Pakistan. These Afghans will be eliminated from now on.



But PAA and PAF still need to be careful. If engaging militants at 10,000ft or below, there is a serious risk of being attacked by any manpads that the talibunnies might possess, courtesy of India/Russia/captured units in Syria etc.

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## Indus Falcon

Last Samuri said:


> " THIS IS WHY THE MMRCS contestants F18 super hornets with AESA & F16 block 70IN DESPITE BEING CHEAPER by 50% was declined by the indian military"



There is no F16 Block 70! Maybe in someones imagination, but definitely not in the real world or by LM!

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## Luftwaffe

My hopes are on some Turkish F-16s with-in next 5-10 years. 

F-16 is not an obsolete platform South Koreans are very professional and have been operating F-16s for years and now are going to be upgraded with BAE package for the next couple of decades.


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## nomi007

_*best image *_

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## Basel

Abu Nasar said:


> There is no F16 Block 70! Maybe in someones imagination, but definitely not in the real world or by LM!



F-16 block 70 offered to India ... specs ? - General F-16 forum
.
F16/BLOCK 70 in USA Magazine

nice read for F-16 lovers.

Code One Magazine: F-16 Evolution


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## Indus Falcon

Basel said:


> F-16 block 70 offered to India ... specs ? - General F-16 forum
> .
> F16/BLOCK 70 in USA Magazine
> 
> nice read for F-16 lovers.
> 
> Code One Magazine: F-16 Evolution


Can you tell me the specs of the Block 70?

Correct me if I'm wrong., but from what I know it was the Block 61, pitched as Block 70.

"We are ready to develop new Block 70 for the IAF," the Lockheed Martin official said. 
Lockheed offers 'exclusive' F-16s to India - Page2 - The Times of India


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## Basel

Abu Nasar said:


> Can you tell me the specs of the Block 70?
> Correct me if I'm wrong., but from what I know it was the Block 61, pitched as Block 70.



It is said that it was better than Block-60, but now we may see it as F-16V if I m not wrong.


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## Indus Falcon

Basel said:


> It is said that it was better than Block-60, but now we may see it as F-16V if I m not wrong.



The only difference between a Blk52 and an F16V is the AESA radar. It still lacks a lot of the features of the Blk60/61.

On another note, can anyone confirm/ deny if the Blk52 has a fiber optic bus like the Blk60 ?


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## Basel

Abu Nasar said:


> The only difference between a Blk52 and an F16V is the AESA radar. It still lacks a lot of the features of the Blk60/61.
> On another note, can anyone confirm/ deny if the Blk52 has a fiber optic bus like the Blk60 ?



I can't confirm / deny about that but when F-16 was offered to India it was the most advance version in the world, the reason for offering most advanced one was its competitors.


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## Indus Falcon

Basel said:


> I can't confirm / deny about that but w*hen F-16 was offered to India it was the most advance version in the world,* the reason for offering most advanced one was its competitors.



Post#7679 - On Paper my friend. They even used Blk60's for the demos.

The most advanced one flying today is Blk60, which are being upgraded + new built to Blk61.


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## Basel

Abu Nasar said:


> Post#7679 - On Paper my friend. They even used Blk60's for the demos.
> The most advanced one flying today is Blk60, which are being upgraded + new built to Blk61.



If India have selected F-16s they would had the most advance ones in the world, but they went for Rafaels.


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## Indus Falcon

Basel said:


> If India have selected F-16s they would had the most advance ones in the world, but they went for Rafaels.


Not "the most advanced F-16's," But "one of the most advanced."


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## Rahil khan

Basel said:


> If India have selected F-16s they would had the most advance ones in the world, but they went for Rafaels.



There were many factors involved in not going after F-16s, one major factor was the expertise and experience of Pakistan Air Force with the F-16 weapon system for more than 3 decades.

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## Last Samuri

The main factor was Rafael and typhoon came top in six months of evaluation from hundreds of factors.


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## Chak Bamu

Last Samuri said:


> The main factor was Rafael and typhoon came top in six months of evaluation from hundreds of factors.



And so many years on, after the selection, we still see nothing on the horizon. Good job.

BTW what does this have to do with the thread? Stop derailing. If you have nothing of value to add, better keep your peace.

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## fatman17

*F-16 Evolution*
By *Eric Hehs* Posted 19 February 2014

All F-16s are not created equal. Fighting Falcons rolling out of the factory today are nothing like earlier versions. Some differences are visible—larger control surfaces; wider inlet; tinted canopy; squared landing lights; and various antennas, vents, bumps, and blisters. Most differences require more than the naked eye to see—structural beef-ups, improved engines, digital electronics, vastly increased computing capacity, and software changes to accommodate new functions, sensors, and weapons.

The all-glass cockpit (no mechanical gauges) of the latest F-16s is the manifestation of many of these improvements. Three large five- by seven-inch color multifunction displays transmit information from a variety of sensors to the pilot in straightforward color graphics. The cockpit features hands-on throttle and side-stick switch controls, night vision goggles-compatible lighting, a color moving map, and a large head-up display. A helmet-mounted cueing system allows pilots to target weapons by simply turning their heads.

*Beginnings*
The original F-16 was designed as a lightweight air-to-air day fighter. Air-to-ground missions immediately transformed the first production F-16s into multirole fighters. The F-16s that followed expanded and refined these roles with beyond-visual-range missiles, infrared sensors, precision-guided munitions, and many other capabilities. Current and planned versions of the F-16 build on these refinements, enhancing capabilities even further.

But the fundamental strengths of the original design remain. At the heart of every Fighting Falcon is the lightweight fighter concept championed by Col. John Boyd and the other members of what came to be known as the Lightweight Fighter Mafia in the US Air Force and Department of Defense. This group favored simple and small fighter designs that could change direction and speed faster than their potential adversaries—designs that were harder to detect; designs that were inexpensive to produce, operate, and maintain. The Fighter Mafia advocated using technology to increase effectiveness or reduce cost. They went so far as to question and thoroughly analyze the basic assumptions of how fighters were judged and compared.

Engineers in Fort Worth transformed these ideas into reality in the 1970s. The resulting lightweight fighter combined a host of advanced technologies that had never been used in operational fighters. A blended wing-body, variable camber wings, and forebody strakes provided extra lift and control. Fly-by-wire flight controls improved response time and replaced heavy hydro-mechanical systems with lighter and smaller electronic systems. Relaxed static stability, made possible by the fly-by-wire system, greatly enhanced agility and stability. A side-mounted throttle and stick, head-up display, thirty-degree seat back angle, hands-on controls, and bubble canopy improved the pilot’s g-tolerance and situational awareness.

All of these technologies had been explored before in a variety of other aircraft and research programs. But the F-16 prototype, or YF-16, was the first airplane to incorporate all of them into a producible design.

The development of the YF-16 optimized a design for performance. The evolution of the production F-16s, on the other hand, became a balancing act between adding and improving capabilities and maintaining the original design’s optimized performance.

Capability improvements can take many forms: countermeasures, infrared sensors, laser targeting devices, missionized rear cockpits, dorsal fairings, datalinks, satellite communications, helmet-mounted cueing systems, conformal fuel tanks, large color displays, all-glass cockpits, improved stores (reconnaissance pods, weapons, and other wing-mounted systems), and auto-recovery systems. Each new capability benefits from its own evolutionary process. All of these improvement leaps are packed into an airframe still capable of sustaining nine g’s and of out-performing other fourth-generation fighters.

Pratt & Whitney and General Electric have added to the evolution with impressive improvements in engine performance. The original Pratt & Whitney engine on the YF-16 developed about 23,000 pounds of thrust. The engines on the Block 50/52 aircraft develop nearly 30,000 pounds of thrust. The GE F110-GE-132 engine on the Block 60 F-16 is rated at 32,500 pounds of thrust. So, even though the F-16’s overall weight has increased, its thrust-to-weight ratio has improved as well.

However, the Lightweight Fighter Mafia will point out that thrust-to-weight ratio is not the only indicator of aircraft performance. The figure doesn’t account for the effects of wing loading and aerodynamic drag. A better measure of performance is energy rate (or Ps), which is a function of thrust, weight, velocity, and drag. Every external payload extracts a performance price in aerodynamic drag. And F-16s rarely fly without a few stores hanging under the wing.

Technology comes to the rescue again. Advances in electronic miniaturization have resulted in lighter, more compact hardware that, in turn, significantly reduces drag. The latest navigation and targeting pods, for example, are smaller, lighter, and aerodynamically cleaner than first-generation pods. Electronic countermeasure systems have shrunk, too, and have more recently found their way under the F-16’s skin, eliminating even more drag. Weaponeers are making bombs and missiles smaller, lighter, and more streamlined. Drag reductions have often accompanied efforts to add more systems and weapons to the airplane and to make the airplane less detectible and more survivable.

While the F-16 today benefits from the electronic revolution, the original designers did not anticipate it. In fact, they purposely kept the aircraft as dense as possible to prevent additional systems—and the extra weight they would bring—from being placed inside the airframe. Technology advances have allowed much more capability to be packed into that same space or, in some cases, in much less space.

*Building Blocks*
Keeping up with all the varieties of the F-16 is no small task. The job is simplified, though, because most changes to the F-16 are made in groups, or blocks, to track items on the production line. Whenever a new-production configuration for the F-16 is established, the block number increases.

The first production aircraft following the two YF prototypes and the eight full-scale development F-16s were Blocks 1 and 5. (From Block 30/32 on, a major block designation ending in 0 signifies a General Electric engine; one ending in 2 signifies a Pratt & Whitney engine.) The current highest operational block designation, however, is Block 60, which is flown by the United Arab Emirates.

Significant modification programs have their own designation as well such as the Mid-Life Upgrade and the Common Configuration Improvement Program. The latest proposed significant modification for the F-16 is called the F-16V (V standing for Viper).

The A in F-16A refers to Blocks 1 through 20 single-seat aircraft. The B in F-16B refers to the two-seat version. The letters C and D were substituted for A and B, respectively, beginning with Block 25. The new series letters emphasize the major differences occurring between Blocks 15 and 25. Block 60 denotes the transition from the F-16C/D to the F-16E/F.

*Full-Scale Development: Production Predecessors*
The YF-16 was chosen over the YF-17 in the Lightweight Fighter competition in 1975. Work began on the first of eight full-scale development, or FSD, F-16s, incorporating the first major—mostly internal—design changes. The designers were intent on retaining the outstanding flying qualities of the original design. So no changes that would degrade the prototype’s aerodynamics were made. At the same time, they had to adapt the airplane to amplified air-to-ground requirements. The overall length grew by thirteen inches. The nose acquired a slight droop to accommodate the Westinghouse APG-66 multimode radar.

To respond to the need for larger air-to-ground payloads, the wing and tail surfaces were enlarged to carry the extra weight. The wing area grew from 280 to 300 square feet, which is about as much as it could grow without requiring additional internal bulkheads to lengthen the fuselage. The horizontal tails and ventral fins grew about fifteen percent. The flaperons and speed brakes grew by about ten percent. An additional hardpoint was placed under each wing, giving the aircraft a total of nine. The airframe was also structurally strengthened.

Other changes in the FSD aircraft included a lighter weight Stencel SIIIS ejection seat, a simpler single door instead of twin doors on the nose landing gear well, and a self-contained engine starter. The canopy transparency was strengthened to withstand a four-pound, 350-knot bird strike. The radome was hinged to ease access to the radar.

The YF-16 validated the aerodynamics, propulsion, and handling qualities of the aircraft’s basic design. With the major design issues out of the way, engineers concentrated more on internal details—such as the electrical system, hydraulics, and avionics—with the FSD aircraft. The FSD aircraft had no block numbers, though they are often referred to as Block 0 F-16s.

*Blocks 1 And 5: Going Operational*
After the prototype and FSD programs, the first Block 1 F-16 (serial number 78-0001) was flown for the first time in August 1978 and delivered to the US Air Force that same month. The aircraft was first assigned to the 388th Tactical Fighter Wing at Hill AFB, Utah, and later became an interceptor with the 125th Fighter Interceptor Group in Jacksonville, Florida, followed by a tour at the 158th Fighter Interceptor Group in Burlington, Vermont. It then was flown by the 127th Tactical Fighter Wing at Selfridge Air National Guard Base, Michigan. The aircraft was eventually sent to Lowry AFB, Colorado, as a student trainer. The first operational F-16 is now on display at Langley AFB, Virginia.

Ninety-four Block 1 and 197 Block 5 F-16s were manufactured through 1981 for the US Air Force and four European Participating Air Forces. Most Block 1 and Block 5 aircraft were upgraded in 1982 to a Block 10 standard through a program called Pacer Loft. New-production Block 10 aircraft (312 total) were built through 1980. The differences between these early F-16 versions are relatively minor. All production F-16s beginning with Block 1 were outfitted with ACES II ejection seats.

A word about nicknames: Tactical Air Command, now Air Combat Command, officially christened the F-16A as the Fighting Falcon. But that name never found wide use on the flightline. As with many aircraft, the unofficial nickname the pilots pinned on the F-16 did catch on: Viper.

*Block 15: Most Produced*
The 330th production F-16 was the first of 983 Block 15 aircraft manufactured in five countries and subsequently assembled on three production lines (Fort Worth, Belgium, and Netherlands). The production of the Block 15 spanned fourteen years. Of the more than 4,500 F-16s manufactured to date, Block 15 aircraft are the most numerous, and many of them are still flying today in air forces around the world.

The transition from Block 10 to Block 15 resulted in two hardpoints added to the inlet chin and designated as stations 5R and 5L. The nearly thirty percent larger horizontal tail is the most noticeable difference between Block 15 and previous F-16 versions. The larger tail offset the shift in center of gravity brought on by the weight of the sensors and structures of the two chin hardpoints. The larger tail also provides better stability and control authority, especially at higher angles of attack.

Block 15 aircraft received an operational capability upgrade, or OCU, beginning in 1988. The upgrade added a data transfer unit and a radar altimeter. The radar was improved, and the fire control and stores control computers were expanded. OCU also allowed Block 15 aircraft to fire the AGM-119 Penguin anti-ship, the AGM-65 Maverick air-to-ground, and the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile, or AMRAAM. The Block 15 aircraft built from 1988 had OCU, a larger wide-angle head-up display, and the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 engine. Fifteen air arms fly Block 15 aircraft today, including the US Navy.

The Air Defense F-16 is a variant of the Block 15 OCU F-16 equipped with additional systems for the air-to-air role. It has improved APG-66A radar, an APX-109 identification friend or foe interrogator, ARC-200 high-frequency radio, and a 150,000-candlepower spotlight mounted on the left side of the forward fuselage. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, 271 Block 15 airframes were converted to the Air Defense configuration. The first converted aircraft were delivered in early 1989. All of the aircraft initially went to the Air National Guard. The Guard stopped flying the Air Defense version of the F-16 in 2007. Air Defense F-16s are still flown by Jordan and Thailand.

*Block 25: From A To C*
The Block 25 aircraft marks the evolution from the F-16A/B to the F-16C/D. Block 25 enabled the F-16 to carry AMRAAM as a baseline weapon as well as carrying night/precision ground-attack capabilities. An improved fire control computer, an improved stores management computer, and an inertial navigation system were added along with multifunction displays, new data transfer unit, radar altimeter, and anti-jam UHF radio.

The Block 25 F-16 also received the improved Westinghouse (now Northrop Grumman) AN/APG-68 radar, which offered increased range, better resolution, and more operating modes. Block 25 featured new upfront controls, a larger head-up display, and two head-down multifunction displays. All Block 25s were originally powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200, but the engines have since been upgraded to the -220E configuration. The first of 244 Block 25 F-16s flew in June 1984. Block 25 is the only F-16 to be employed exclusively by the US Air Force.

*Block 30/32: New Engine Choices*
Block 30/32 added two new engines to the F-16 line—the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 and the General Electric F110-GE-100. The aircraft’s engine bays are common to both engines by design. A larger inlet was introduced at Block 30D for the GE-powered F-16s, which are often called big-mouth F-16s. The larger inlet, formally called the modular common inlet duct, allows the GE engine to produce its full thrust at lower airspeeds.

The smaller inlet, called a normal shock inlet, has not changed for the -220 and subsequent Pratt & Whitney engines. A Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engine powered the Variable Inflight Stability Test Aircraft, or VISTA/F-16, which featured the larger inlet. This is the only F-16 with a large inlet and a Pratt & Whitney engine.

Block 30/32 can carry AGM-88A high-speed anti-radiation missiles, or HARM. Like the Block 25, it can carry the AGM-65 Maverick missile. Changes at Block 30D allowed the aircraft to carry twice as many chaff/flare dispensers for self-protection, and the forward radar warning receiver antennas were relocated to the leading-edge flap. These beer can-shaped antennas have since been retrofitted onto all previous F-16C/D aircraft. Block 30/32 has a crash-survivable flight data recorder, voice message unit, and expanded memory for the multifunction displays. The first of 733 Block 30/32 F-16s was delivered in July 1987; the airplane was manufactured through 1989.

The F-16N manufactured for the US Navy was a Block 30 variant. It was powered by the GE F110-GE-100 engine and had the small inlet associated with early Block 30 production. The F-16N also carried the APG-66 radar of the F-16A models and minor structural differences for meeting Navy requirements. The aircraft had no internal 20-mm gun. Twenty-two F-16Ns and four TF-16Ns (two-seaters) were built from 1987 to 1988. They were used for dissimilar air-to-air training with three Navy adversary squadrons and at the Navy’s Fighter Weapons School (Top Gun) until 1994.

The US Navy once again began flying Fighting Falcons in early 2002 when the first of ten single-seat and four two-seat Block 15 F-16s were delivered to NAS Fallon in Nevada (the current home of Top Gun). These aircraft, with distinctive paint schemes, are low-hour F-16A/Bs that had been in storage.

*Block 40/42 Night/Precision Attack*
With Block 40/42, the F-16 gained capabilities for navigation and precision attack at night and in all weather conditions and traded its original analog flight controls for a digital system and new core avionics.

The landing gear of Block 40/42 was beefed up and extended to handle the Low Altitude Navigation and Targeting Infrared for Night, or LANTIRN, targeting and navigation pods and more extensive air-to-ground loads. By design, the landing gear bay doors bulge slightly to handle the larger wheels and tires. The LANTIRN pods also necessitated moving the landing lights from the struts of the main landing gear to the leading inside edge of the nose gear door. The larger wide angle collimating, or WAC, head-up display was needed for LANTIRN as well. This wide-angle raster HUD, as it is called, is capable of displaying the infrared image from the LANTIRN navigation pod used in low-altitude night navigation.

The precision weapons incorporated by Block 40/42 include the GBU-10, GBU-12, and GBU-24 Paveway family of laser-guided bombs as well as the GBU-15 glide bomb.

Block 40/42 also featured the addition of the APG-68(V5) radar, automatic terrain following (part of the LANTIRN system), global positioning system, full provisions for internal electronic countermeasures, an enhanced-envelope gun sight, and a capability for bombing moving targets.

Production of Block 40/42 began in 1988 and ran through 1995. Twenty-one more Block 40s were built for Egypt, and ten single-seat Block 40s were built for Bahrain during 1999 to 2000.

US Air Force Block 40 aircraft are now equipped and flying missions with night vision goggles and with a datalink system. This system receives highly accurate position information from a forward air controller on the ground. The system then inputs the data into the weapon system computer and displays it as a waypoint on the head-up display.

*Block 20 And MLU*
Block 20 refers to new-production F-16As that incorporate significant avionic enhancements, including a modular mission computer, or MMC, replacing three other computers. The processing speed of the computer is more than 740 times faster than the computer in the original F-16. It has more than 180 times the memory. An improved radar, the APG-66(V2), features increased detection and tracking ranges and the ability to track more targets.

The Mid-Life Update program, or MLU, refers to the 300 retrofitted Block 15 F-16A/B Belgian, Danish, Dutch, and Norwegian aircraft. These aircraft were also structurally upgraded to meet an 8,000-hour airframe life span in a program called Falcon UP (for unos programmum). 

Block 20 and MLU F-16s have wide-angle head-up displays, color multifunction cockpit displays, upfront controls (a set of programmable pushbuttons placed just below the head-up display), a Block 50-style side stick and throttle, ring laser inertial navigation systems, miniaturized global positioning system receivers, digital terrain systems, improved data modems, and advanced interrogators for identifying friendly or foe aircraft. The lighting in the cockpit is compatible with night-vision systems. The aircraft also have provisions for microwave landing systems and helmet-mounted displays.

*Block 50/52 Wild Weasel Plus*
The first Block 50/52 was delivered to the US Air Force in 1991. The Block 50/52 F-16 is recognized for its ability to carry the AGM-88 HARM in the suppression of enemy air defenses, or SEAD, missions. The F-16 can carry as many as four HARMs.

An avionics launcher interface computer allows the F-16 to launch the HARM missile. US Air Force F-16s have been upgraded to carry the HARM Targeting System, or HTS, pod on the left intake hardpoint so it can be combined with laser targeting pods designed to fit on the right intake hardpoint. The HTS pod contains a hypersensitive receiver that detects, classifies, and ranges threats and passes the information to the HARM and to the cockpit displays. With the targeting system, the F-16 has full autonomous HARM capability.

The Block 50/52 F-16 continued to be improved, and the current aircraft sold to the FMS customers is equipped with the APG-68(V9) radar, which offers longer range detection against air targets and higher reliability. The Block 50/52 now includes embedded global positioning system/inertial navigation system, a larger capacity data transfer cartridge, a digital terrain system data transfer cartridge, a cockpit compatible with night vision systems, an improved data modem, an ALR-56M advanced radar warning receiver, an ALE-47 threat-adaptive countermeasure system, and an advanced interrogator for identifying friendly aircraft.

In the cockpit, an upgraded programmable display generator has four times the memory and seven times the processor speed of the system it replaces. New VHF/FM antennas increase reception ranges. The Block 50/52 is powered by increased performance engines—the General Electric F110-GE-129 and the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229—each rated to deliver over 29,000 pounds of thrust in afterburner. Block 50/52 are the first F-16 versions to fully integrate the AGM-84 Harpoon anti-shipping missile.

New-production Block 50/52 aircraft ordered after 1996 include color multifunction displays, the modular mission computer, and a multichannel video recorder. All international versions of the Block 50/52 have LANTIRN capability.

More than 800 Block 50/52s have been delivered from production lines in Fort Worth, Korea, and Turkey. The Fort Worth production line is currently the only active F-16 line. The other production lines have completed their production runs and have been shut down.

*Engines*
The engines that power the F-16 have improved in more ways than in maximum thrust. Engines used in early F-16s required from six to eight seconds to spool up from idle to afterburner. Since then, electronic controls have replaced hydro-mechanical systems. The changes allow current engines to go from idle to full afterburner in two seconds. Engine reliability and ease of maintenance have also been improved significantly. Today’s F-16 engines can be expected to deliver eight to ten years of operational service between depot inspections.

Digital engine controls, first introduced on Pratt & Whitney-powered F-16s in 1986, have also improved performance. Older hydro-mechanical controls had to be trimmed to operate at the most challenging point within the F-16’s flight envelope. Digital engine controls automatically adjust to the operating environment, so that they optimize engine performance at all points within the flight envelope. All engines being built today for the F-16 have digital engine controls.

*Commonality*
With all the varieties of the F-16 produced through the years, the US Air Force decided to standardize its F-16 fleet to simplify logistics, maintenance, and training. The service, building on the success of the MLU program, implemented the Common Configuration Implementation Program (CCIP) in 1997 to bring all of the Block 40/42/50/52 into a common avionics configuration.

The CCIP added color displays, common missile warning systems, and an improved modular mission computer to Block 40/42 and Block 50/52 F-16s as well as an advanced datalink, called Link-16, that is standard for US and NATO aircraft. The upgrade also included the multi-service standard joint helmet-mounted cueing system (JHMCS). This system works with the high-off-boresight AIM-9X air-to-air missile as well as with other slewable sensors and provides the pilot with other situational awareness and navigation data without looking in the cockpit. More than 200 Block 50/52 and 420 Block 40/42 aircraft were involved in the program. The Air National Guard (ANG), Air Force Reserve Command (AFRC), and active duty Air Force units are now operational with the upgrades. This program successfully completed in 2011, and now all of the US active duty aircraft fly with common/compatible systems. 

Exceptions include Block 30/32 F-16s at the Aggressor squadrons in Nevada and Alaska and Block 25 F-16s in training squadrons at Luke AFB, Arizona. Block 25 and Block 30/32 aircraft are concentrated in Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve Command units. A few Reserve Component units do already fly more advanced versions of the F-16.

*Block 60 And Beyond*
The F-16 Block 60, also known as the Desert Falcon, is the most advanced F-16 produced to date. An internal, forward-looking infrared navigation sensor mounted as a ball turret on the upper left nose is the main feature that distinguishes the Block 60 from previous F-16s. Both single- and two-seat aircraft carry conformal fuel tanks.

The Desert Falcon’s increased-thrust GE-132 engine helps compensate for the increase in weight and payload over the basic F-16. Internal differences, on the other hand, add up to a huge improvement in capability.

The Desert Falcon has many automated modes, including autopilot, auto-throttle, an automatic ground collision avoidance system, and a pilot-actuated recovery system. The recovery system allows pilots to recover the aircraft with the push of a button the moment they sense they have lost situational awareness. The Block 60’s electronic warfare system, produced by Northrop Grumman, is the most sophisticated subsystem on the aircraft. It provides threat warning, threat emitter locating capability, and increased situational awareness to pilots. A fiber-optic databus handles the throughput and speed needed for many of these systems. The maintenance system is laptop-based.

The APG-80 agile beam radar underpins many of the new capabilities of the Block 60. The radar, produced by Northrop Grumman, is an advanced electronically scanned array offering much greater detection ranges. The radar can continuously search for and track multiple targets and simultaneously perform multiple functions such as air-to-air search and track, air-to-ground targeting, and terrain following. The radar vastly improves the pilot’s situational awareness.

Block 60’s General Electric F110-GE-132 turbofan engine produces approximately 32,500 pounds of thrust in maximum afterburner. The engine is a derivative of the F110-GE-129 engine that powers the majority of F-16C fighters worldwide.

*The Evolution Continues . . .*
In recent years, significant improvements in F-16 capability have been developed and added to the stream of software and systems upgrades that have been a part of the program from its inception. Most recently, the US Air Force is fielding the Automated Ground Collision Avoidance System, or AGCAS, which provides the pilot with improved situational awareness of imminent collision with the ground. The system can take control of the aircraft to avoid a collision if the pilot doesn’t respond to the visual cues.

Additionally, to implement customer requirements for newer, more advanced capabilities and to meet the data processing loads required to fulfill those requirements, the avionics configuration for the F-16V has been developed to keep the F-16 capable and relevant. The V configuration incorporates an improved MMC; upgraded programmable displays generator; an active electronically scanned array radar; a large, high-resolution center pedestal display; and integrated control for the various electronic warfare displays and systems all supported by a gigabit Ethernet architecture.

*Still Exceptional*
In the 40 years since the YF-16 was flown for the first time in the Air Force Flight Test Center at Edwards AFB, California, it has continued to evolve to meet new requirements for each of the twenty-six customers who operate the F-16 as their front-line fighter. The first production F-16 rolled out of the factory in Fort Worth in August 1978. Since then, more than 4,500 F-16s have rolled off assembly lines in five countries. The F-16 will continue to serve as a front-line fighter and sustainment will extend well beyond 2030.

The present state of the F-16 encompasses a broad range of configurations. While the earliest F-16s perch atop poles for public display, others test the latest weapon and sensor technologies. Those rolling off the factory line represent the most advanced fourth-generation fighter produced today. Even though the F-16 has been flying for forty years, its evolution continues to build on the fundamental strengths of its original design.
_Eric Hehs is the editor of_ Code One.

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## fatman17

*Quote of the Day
Fight to fly, fly to fight, fight to win. * -- Bumper sticker

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## nomi007



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## nomi007

*CONGRATULATIONS TO ALL MEMBERS *
Exactly 12 years ago, the same day an F-16B Sr# 83-605 from No.9 MultiRole Sqn shot down Indian Air Force Searcher-II UAV near Lahore. The Indian AF UAV was on a spying mission over Lahore.

(Ref. photo: Wreckage of Indian Air Force UAV placed in a C-130 hangar at PAF base PAF Chakala on 10th June,2002 for press conference.)












Wng Cdr(then Sqn Ldr) ‘Sidewinder’ Zulfiqar; the pilot who shot down IAF UAV on that Night.




Exactly 12 years ago, the same day an F-16B Sr# 83-605 from No.9 MultiRole Sqn shot down Indian Air Force Searcher-II UAV near Lahore. The Indian AF UAV was on a spying mission over Lahore. Such mission was of vital importance to Indian AF as both sides were in high tension on border and gathering any information behind enemy lines may have been game changer.

During the Operational Sentinel, which lasted from December 2001 to end October 2002, PAF remained high alert and distributed its fighting elements across various Forward Operating Air Bases (FOBs) and air fields and conducted Combat Air Patrol (CAP) missions across Pakistan.

During one similar CAP mission, two IAF UAVs were spotted near Lahore, both bogies took off from airfield in Jammu. Hot scramble was initiated from two locations Rafiqui Air Base, Shorkot and Minhas Air Base, Kamra. In the initial scramble by two Mirages and two F-7s; Searcher-II drones with low-radar and low-visual/IR signal were not spotted. Later an F-16B spotted the low level flying UAV at about at 13,000 ft. Sqn Ldr Zulfiqar Ayub and Sqn Ldr Afzal Aman flying in the F-16 opted for AIM-9L heat seeking missile for the kill. The wreckage fell off at the Dogran Kalan village, South-West of Lahore.

According to ACM Mushaf Ali Mir, CAS PAF’s statement _” The UAV was spotted by the mobile observation units when it crossed into Pakistani territory and was immediately gunned down.” _

Today the wreckage of this UAV is placed outside No.9 Sqn Office and Mushaf Air Base, Sargodha history museum marking a unique encounter of a supersonic fighter aircraft with UAV.

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## Munir

Zulfiqar used Sidewinder and has the nickname Sidewinder. That is funny. Bur one UAV escaped with all the info? And while Iranians can land the most secret UAV we cannot? I am a bit disappointed.


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## elitepilot09

Munir said:


> Zulfiqar used Sidewinder and has the nickname Sidewinder. That is funny. Bur one UAV escaped with all the info? And while Iranians can land the most secret UAV we cannot? I am a bit disappointed.



You are referring to events that had at 10 year period gap. That is a substantial amount of time in todays day and age where technology seems to be maturing faster than anything else humanity has ever conceived. 

While I agree that the second UAV should have also been shot down as well, I believe your expectation of PAF personnel at a time where UAVs were new us and only in infant stages, is far too high... which is why you are "disappointed" i suppose. 

Given the tactical nature of UAVs, particularly in their small size, I think we ought to give credit to the PAF for being able to pick it up and shoot it down as early as they did.

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## Donatello

Was it a radar lock or simple IR one? Would be interesting to know if the F-16's APG66 picked up the small UAV and at what range?


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## elitepilot09

Donatello said:


> Was it a radar lock or simple IR one? Would be interesting to know if the F-16's APG66 picked up the small UAV and at what range?



Very very classified information I'm sure... But I hear you, I would love to know as well.


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## gambit

elitepilot09 said:


> Very very classified information I'm sure... But I hear you, I would love to know as well.


The 'classified' nature of this type of information is both technical and tactical, but far far far more tactical than technical.

Yes...The UAV's small size does have a technical effect on its radar detectability, but its depth of penetration and duration of stay *BEFORE* being detected are not what you want in the public domain. It gives enemies and potential enemies insights on your strengths and weaknesses in defense.

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## Donatello

gambit said:


> The 'classified' nature of this type of information is both technical and tactical, but far far far more tactical than technical.
> 
> Yes...The UAV's small size does have a technical effect on its radar detectability, but its depth of penetration and duration of stay *BEFORE* being detected are not what you want in the public domain. It gives enemies and potential enemies insights on your strengths and weaknesses in defense.



I am interested in knowing at what range the APG66 detect such a small target?

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## gambit

Donatello said:


> I am interested in knowing at what range the APG66 detect such a small target?


Not from me...Sorry...

We know that detection is not the same as tracking. We also know that although a body's radar observability depends on variables, the major variables are known:

- Freq employed
- Target size
- Target structural complexity
- Distance from radar
- Transmission power

In radar data processing, especially when there are physical constraints such as on airborne applications, most designers cannot afford to produce software that continuously adjusts for those variables. I say most, not all. Like the old saying: 'Speed cost money. How fast do you want to go?'

So what really happens is that a body's reflectivity must fall inside a sort of 'box', among many 'boxes', before the system will flag that body as 'detected' and 'tracking'. Each 'box' contains the same set of variables but with different values to try to compensate for different environmental conditions and tactical situations. That is why we have cockpit scenarios like ground strikes and dogfights where the pilot just need to flick a switch to change the radar's operations to suit: hands on throttle and stick (HOTAS). Ground mapping mode should disable moving targets, so in this mode, the pilot would be blind to threats, for example of a data processing 'box'.

Small bodies like that of the UAV type would be detectable in much shorter distance and ideal environmental conditions, as in minimal or no clutter.

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## elitepilot09

7th said:


> Can Pakistan acquire more than 100+ F-16s Block-15s? And from which country?



Nishan_101, I'm assuming this is your 6th or perhaps 7th account (as your new username suggests)... my question for you is: What does it take to keep you away from here? You've asked this same question multiple times and it has been answered many times as well. 

On a side note.. this might help too:

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Jungibaaz said:


> Hold your horses people, the option for the 18 has been here for a while. We have an established history on this forum of jumping the gun. Take it easy.









Well said


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## ziaulislam

Please dont ban him otherwise we will have "the 8th" very soon

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## araz

Oh lea e him be. He is keen. But if hexwants to stay here he needs to promise no more stupid posts. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. 
Araz


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## araz

jf-17s said:


> Does PAF loves F-16s?


Yes PAF wants to marry F16 and raise a family of JF17s
Araz

Reactions: Like Like:
4


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## The SC

*F-16 Evolution*

All F-16s are not created equal. Fighting Falcons rolling out of the factory today are nothing like earlier versions. Some differences are visible—larger control surfaces; wider inlet; tinted canopy; squared landing lights; and various antennas, vents, bumps, and blisters. Most differences require more than the naked eye to see—structural beef-ups, improved engines, digital electronics, vastly increased computing capacity, and software changes to accommodate new functions, sensors, and weapons.

The all-glass cockpit (no mechanical gauges) of the latest F-16s is the manifestation of many of these improvements. Three large five- by seven-inch color multifunction displays transmit information from a variety of sensors to the pilot in straightforward color graphics. The cockpit features hands-on throttle and side-stick switch controls, night vision goggles-compatible lighting, a color moving map, and a large head-up display. A helmet-mounted cueing system allows pilots to target weapons by simply turning their heads.

*Beginnings*
The original F-16 was designed as a lightweight air-to-air day fighter. Air-to-ground missions immediately transformed the first production F-16s into multirole fighters. The F-16s that followed expanded and refined these roles with beyond-visual-range missiles, infrared sensors, precision-guided munitions, and many other capabilities. Current and planned versions of the F-16 build on these refinements, enhancing capabilities even further.

But the fundamental strengths of the original design remain. At the heart of every Fighting Falcon is the lightweight fighter concept championed by Col. John Boyd and the other members of what came to be known as the Lightweight Fighter Mafia in the US Air Force and Department of Defense. This group favored simple and small fighter designs that could change direction and speed faster than their potential adversaries—designs that were harder to detect; designs that were inexpensive to produce, operate, and maintain. The Fighter Mafia advocated using technology to increase effectiveness or reduce cost. They went so far as to question and thoroughly analyze the basic assumptions of how fighters were judged and compared.

Engineers in Fort Worth transformed these ideas into reality in the 1970s. The resulting lightweight fighter combined a host of advanced technologies that had never been used in operational fighters. A blended wing-body, variable camber wings, and forebody strakes provided extra lift and control. Fly-by-wire flight controls improved response time and replaced heavy hydro-mechanical systems with lighter and smaller electronic systems. Relaxed static stability, made possible by the fly-by-wire system, greatly enhanced agility and stability. A side-mounted throttle and stick, head-up display, thirty-degree seat back angle, hands-on controls, and bubble canopy improved the pilot’s g-tolerance and situational awareness.

All of these technologies had been explored before in a variety of other aircraft and research programs. But the F-16 prototype, or YF-16, was the first airplane to incorporate all of them into a producible design.

The development of the YF-16 optimized a design for performance. The evolution of the production F-16s, on the other hand, became a balancing act between adding and improving capabilities and maintaining the original design’s optimized performance.

Capability improvements can take many forms: countermeasures, infrared sensors, laser targeting devices, missionized rear cockpits, dorsal fairings, datalinks, satellite communications, helmet-mounted cueing systems, conformal fuel tanks, large color displays, all-glass cockpits, improved stores (reconnaissance pods, weapons, and other wing-mounted systems), and auto-recovery systems. Each new capability benefits from its own evolutionary process. All of these improvement leaps are packed into an airframe still capable of sustaining nine g’s and of out-performing other fourth-generation fighters.

Pratt & Whitney and General Electric have added to the evolution with impressive improvements in engine performance. The original Pratt & Whitney engine on the YF-16 developed about 23,000 pounds of thrust. The engines on the Block 50/52 aircraft develop nearly 30,000 pounds of thrust. The GE F110-GE-132 engine on the Block 60 F-16 is rated at 32,500 pounds of thrust. So, even though the F-16’s overall weight has increased, its thrust-to-weight ratio has improved as well.

However, the Lightweight Fighter Mafia will point out that thrust-to-weight ratio is not the only indicator of aircraft performance. The figure doesn’t account for the effects of wing loading and aerodynamic drag. A better measure of performance is energy rate (or Ps), which is a function of thrust, weight, velocity, and drag. Every external payload extracts a performance price in aerodynamic drag. And F-16s rarely fly without a few stores hanging under the wing.

Technology comes to the rescue again. Advances in electronic miniaturization have resulted in lighter, more compact hardware that, in turn, significantly reduces drag. The latest navigation and targeting pods, for example, are smaller, lighter, and aerodynamically cleaner than first-generation pods. Electronic countermeasure systems have shrunk, too, and have more recently found their way under the F-16’s skin, eliminating even more drag. Weaponeers are making bombs and missiles smaller, lighter, and more streamlined. Drag reductions have often accompanied efforts to add more systems and weapons to the airplane and to make the airplane less detectible and more survivable.

While the F-16 today benefits from the electronic revolution, the original designers did not anticipate it. In fact, they purposely kept the aircraft as dense as possible to prevent additional systems—and the extra weight they would bring—from being placed inside the airframe. Technology advances have allowed much more capability to be packed into that same space or, in some cases, in much less space.

*Building Blocks*
Keeping up with all the varieties of the F-16 is no small task. The job is simplified, though, because most changes to the F-16 are made in groups, or blocks, to track items on the production line. Whenever a new-production configuration for the F-16 is established, the block number increases.

The first production aircraft following the two YF prototypes and the eight full-scale development F-16s were Blocks 1 and 5. (From Block 30/32 on, a major block designation ending in 0 signifies a General Electric engine; one ending in 2 signifies a Pratt & Whitney engine.) The current highest operational block designation, however, is Block 60, which is flown by the United Arab Emirates.

Significant modification programs have their own designation as well such as the Mid-Life Upgrade and the Common Configuration Improvement Program. The latest proposed significant modification for the F-16 is called the F-16V (V standing for Viper).

The A in F-16A refers to Blocks 1 through 20 single-seat aircraft. The B in F-16B refers to the two-seat version. The letters C and D were substituted for A and B, respectively, beginning with Block 25. The new series letters emphasize the major differences occurring between Blocks 15 and 25. Block 60 denotes the transition from the F-16C/D to the F-16E/F.

*Full-Scale Development: Production Predecessors*
The YF-16 was chosen over the YF-17 in the Lightweight Fighter competition in 1975. Work began on the first of eight full-scale development, or FSD, F-16s, incorporating the first major—mostly internal—design changes. The designers were intent on retaining the outstanding flying qualities of the original design. So no changes that would degrade the prototype’s aerodynamics were made. At the same time, they had to adapt the airplane to amplified air-to-ground requirements. The overall length grew by thirteen inches. The nose acquired a slight droop to accommodate the Westinghouse APG-66 multimode radar.

To respond to the need for larger air-to-ground payloads, the wing and tail surfaces were enlarged to carry the extra weight. The wing area grew from 280 to 300 square feet, which is about as much as it could grow without requiring additional internal bulkheads to lengthen the fuselage. The horizontal tails and ventral fins grew about fifteen percent. The flaperons and speed brakes grew by about ten percent. An additional hardpoint was placed under each wing, giving the aircraft a total of nine. The airframe was also structurally strengthened.

Other changes in the FSD aircraft included a lighter weight Stencel SIIIS ejection seat, a simpler single door instead of twin doors on the nose landing gear well, and a self-contained engine starter. The canopy transparency was strengthened to withstand a four-pound, 350-knot bird strike. The radome was hinged to ease access to the radar.

The YF-16 validated the aerodynamics, propulsion, and handling qualities of the aircraft’s basic design. With the major design issues out of the way, engineers concentrated more on internal details—such as the electrical system, hydraulics, and avionics—with the FSD aircraft. The FSD aircraft had no block numbers, though they are often referred to as Block 0 F-16s.

*Blocks 1 And 5: Going Operational*
After the prototype and FSD programs, the first Block 1 F-16 (serial number 78-0001) was flown for the first time in August 1978 and delivered to the US Air Force that same month. The aircraft was first assigned to the 388th Tactical Fighter Wing at Hill AFB, Utah, and later became an interceptor with the 125th Fighter Interceptor Group in Jacksonville, Florida, followed by a tour at the 158th Fighter Interceptor Group in Burlington, Vermont. It then was flown by the 127th Tactical Fighter Wing at Selfridge Air National Guard Base, Michigan. The aircraft was eventually sent to Lowry AFB, Colorado, as a student trainer. The first operational F-16 is now on display at Langley AFB, Virginia.

Ninety-four Block 1 and 197 Block 5 F-16s were manufactured through 1981 for the US Air Force and four European Participating Air Forces. Most Block 1 and Block 5 aircraft were upgraded in 1982 to a Block 10 standard through a program called Pacer Loft. New-production Block 10 aircraft (312 total) were built through 1980. The differences between these early F-16 versions are relatively minor. All production F-16s beginning with Block 1 were outfitted with ACES II ejection seats.

A word about nicknames: Tactical Air Command, now Air Combat Command, officially christened the F-16A as the Fighting Falcon. But that name never found wide use on the flightline. As with many aircraft, the unofficial nickname the pilots pinned on the F-16 did catch on: Viper.

*Block 15: Most Produced*
The 330th production F-16 was the first of 983 Block 15 aircraft manufactured in five countries and subsequently assembled on three production lines (Fort Worth, Belgium, and Netherlands). The production of the Block 15 spanned fourteen years. Of the more than 4,500 F-16s manufactured to date, Block 15 aircraft are the most numerous, and many of them are still flying today in air forces around the world.

The transition from Block 10 to Block 15 resulted in two hardpoints added to the inlet chin and designated as stations 5R and 5L. The nearly thirty percent larger horizontal tail is the most noticeable difference between Block 15 and previous F-16 versions. The larger tail offset the shift in center of gravity brought on by the weight of the sensors and structures of the two chin hardpoints. The larger tail also provides better stability and control authority, especially at higher angles of attack.

Block 15 aircraft received an operational capability upgrade, or OCU, beginning in 1988. The upgrade added a data transfer unit and a radar altimeter. The radar was improved, and the fire control and stores control computers were expanded. OCU also allowed Block 15 aircraft to fire the AGM-119 Penguin anti-ship, the AGM-65 Maverick air-to-ground, and the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile, or AMRAAM. The Block 15 aircraft built from 1988 had OCU, a larger wide-angle head-up display, and the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 engine. Fifteen air arms fly Block 15 aircraft today, including the US Navy.

The Air Defense F-16 is a variant of the Block 15 OCU F-16 equipped with additional systems for the air-to-air role. It has improved APG-66A radar, an APX-109 identification friend or foe interrogator, ARC-200 high-frequency radio, and a 150,000-candlepower spotlight mounted on the left side of the forward fuselage. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, 271 Block 15 airframes were converted to the Air Defense configuration. The first converted aircraft were delivered in early 1989. All of the aircraft initially went to the Air National Guard. The Guard stopped flying the Air Defense version of the F-16 in 2007. Air Defense F-16s are still flown by Jordan and Thailand.

*Block 25: From A To C*
The Block 25 aircraft marks the evolution from the F-16A/B to the F-16C/D. Block 25 enabled the F-16 to carry AMRAAM as a baseline weapon as well as carrying night/precision ground-attack capabilities. An improved fire control computer, an improved stores management computer, and an inertial navigation system were added along with multifunction displays, new data transfer unit, radar altimeter, and anti-jam UHF radio.

The Block 25 F-16 also received the improved Westinghouse (now Northrop Grumman) AN/APG-68 radar, which offered increased range, better resolution, and more operating modes. Block 25 featured new upfront controls, a larger head-up display, and two head-down multifunction displays. All Block 25s were originally powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200, but the engines have since been upgraded to the -220E configuration. The first of 244 Block 25 F-16s flew in June 1984. Block 25 is the only F-16 to be employed exclusively by the US Air Force.

*Block 30/32: New Engine Choices*
Block 30/32 added two new engines to the F-16 line—the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 and the General Electric F110-GE-100. The aircraft’s engine bays are common to both engines by design. A larger inlet was introduced at Block 30D for the GE-powered F-16s, which are often called big-mouth F-16s. The larger inlet, formally called the modular common inlet duct, allows the GE engine to produce its full thrust at lower airspeeds.

The smaller inlet, called a normal shock inlet, has not changed for the -220 and subsequent Pratt & Whitney engines. A Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engine powered the Variable Inflight Stability Test Aircraft, or VISTA/F-16, which featured the larger inlet. This is the only F-16 with a large inlet and a Pratt & Whitney engine.

Block 30/32 can carry AGM-88A high-speed anti-radiation missiles, or HARM. Like the Block 25, it can carry the AGM-65 Maverick missile. Changes at Block 30D allowed the aircraft to carry twice as many chaff/flare dispensers for self-protection, and the forward radar warning receiver antennas were relocated to the leading-edge flap. These beer can-shaped antennas have since been retrofitted onto all previous F-16C/D aircraft. Block 30/32 has a crash-survivable flight data recorder, voice message unit, and expanded memory for the multifunction displays. The first of 733 Block 30/32 F-16s was delivered in July 1987; the airplane was manufactured through 1989.

The F-16N manufactured for the US Navy was a Block 30 variant. It was powered by the GE F110-GE-100 engine and had the small inlet associated with early Block 30 production. The F-16N also carried the APG-66 radar of the F-16A models and minor structural differences for meeting Navy requirements. The aircraft had no internal 20-mm gun. Twenty-two F-16Ns and four TF-16Ns (two-seaters) were built from 1987 to 1988. They were used for dissimilar air-to-air training with three Navy adversary squadrons and at the Navy’s Fighter Weapons School (Top Gun) until 1994.

The US Navy once again began flying Fighting Falcons in early 2002 when the first of ten single-seat and four two-seat Block 15 F-16s were delivered to NAS Fallon in Nevada (the current home of Top Gun). These aircraft, with distinctive paint schemes, are low-hour F-16A/Bs that had been in storage.

*Block 40/42 Night/Precision Attack*
With Block 40/42, the F-16 gained capabilities for navigation and precision attack at night and in all weather conditions and traded its original analog flight controls for a digital system and new core avionics.

The landing gear of Block 40/42 was beefed up and extended to handle the Low Altitude Navigation and Targeting Infrared for Night, or LANTIRN, targeting and navigation pods and more extensive air-to-ground loads. By design, the landing gear bay doors bulge slightly to handle the larger wheels and tires. The LANTIRN pods also necessitated moving the landing lights from the struts of the main landing gear to the leading inside edge of the nose gear door. The larger wide angle collimating, or WAC, head-up display was needed for LANTIRN as well. This wide-angle raster HUD, as it is called, is capable of displaying the infrared image from the LANTIRN navigation pod used in low-altitude night navigation.

The precision weapons incorporated by Block 40/42 include the GBU-10, GBU-12, and GBU-24 Paveway family of laser-guided bombs as well as the GBU-15 glide bomb.

Block 40/42 also featured the addition of the APG-68(V5) radar, automatic terrain following (part of the LANTIRN system), global positioning system, full provisions for internal electronic countermeasures, an enhanced-envelope gun sight, and a capability for bombing moving targets.

Production of Block 40/42 began in 1988 and ran through 1995. Twenty-one more Block 40s were built for Egypt, and ten single-seat Block 40s were built for Bahrain during 1999 to 2000.

US Air Force Block 40 aircraft are now equipped and flying missions with night vision goggles and with a datalink system. This system receives highly accurate position information from a forward air controller on the ground. The system then inputs the data into the weapon system computer and displays it as a waypoint on the head-up display.

*Block 20 And MLU*
Block 20 refers to new-production F-16As that incorporate significant avionic enhancements, including a modular mission computer, or MMC, replacing three other computers. The processing speed of the computer is more than 740 times faster than the computer in the original F-16. It has more than 180 times the memory. An improved radar, the APG-66(V2), features increased detection and tracking ranges and the ability to track more targets.

The Mid-Life Update program, or MLU, refers to the 300 retrofitted Block 15 F-16A/B Belgian, Danish, Dutch, and Norwegian aircraft. These aircraft were also structurally upgraded to meet an 8,000-hour airframe life span in a program called Falcon UP (for unos programmum). 

Block 20 and MLU F-16s have wide-angle head-up displays, color multifunction cockpit displays, upfront controls (a set of programmable pushbuttons placed just below the head-up display), a Block 50-style side stick and throttle, ring laser inertial navigation systems, miniaturized global positioning system receivers, digital terrain systems, improved data modems, and advanced interrogators for identifying friendly or foe aircraft. The lighting in the cockpit is compatible with night-vision systems. The aircraft also have provisions for microwave landing systems and helmet-mounted displays.

*Block 50/52 Wild Weasel Plus*
The first Block 50/52 was delivered to the US Air Force in 1991. The Block 50/52 F-16 is recognized for its ability to carry the AGM-88 HARM in the suppression of enemy air defenses, or SEAD, missions. The F-16 can carry as many as four HARMs.

An avionics launcher interface computer allows the F-16 to launch the HARM missile. US Air Force F-16s have been upgraded to carry the HARM Targeting System, or HTS, pod on the left intake hardpoint so it can be combined with laser targeting pods designed to fit on the right intake hardpoint. The HTS pod contains a hypersensitive receiver that detects, classifies, and ranges threats and passes the information to the HARM and to the cockpit displays. With the targeting system, the F-16 has full autonomous HARM capability.

The Block 50/52 F-16 continued to be improved, and the current aircraft sold to the FMS customers is equipped with the APG-68(V9) radar, which offers longer range detection against air targets and higher reliability. The Block 50/52 now includes embedded global positioning system/inertial navigation system, a larger capacity data transfer cartridge, a digital terrain system data transfer cartridge, a cockpit compatible with night vision systems, an improved data modem, an ALR-56M advanced radar warning receiver, an ALE-47 threat-adaptive countermeasure system, and an advanced interrogator for identifying friendly aircraft.

In the cockpit, an upgraded programmable display generator has four times the memory and seven times the processor speed of the system it replaces. New VHF/FM antennas increase reception ranges. The Block 50/52 is powered by increased performance engines—the General Electric F110-GE-129 and the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229—each rated to deliver over 29,000 pounds of thrust in afterburner. Block 50/52 are the first F-16 versions to fully integrate the AGM-84 Harpoon anti-shipping missile.

New-production Block 50/52 aircraft ordered after 1996 include color multifunction displays, the modular mission computer, and a multichannel video recorder. All international versions of the Block 50/52 have LANTIRN capability.

More than 800 Block 50/52s have been delivered from production lines in Fort Worth, Korea, and Turkey. The Fort Worth production line is currently the only active F-16 line. The other production lines have completed their production runs and have been shut down.

*Engines*
The engines that power the F-16 have improved in more ways than in maximum thrust. Engines used in early F-16s required from six to eight seconds to spool up from idle to afterburner. Since then, electronic controls have replaced hydro-mechanical systems. The changes allow current engines to go from idle to full afterburner in two seconds. Engine reliability and ease of maintenance have also been improved significantly. Today’s F-16 engines can be expected to deliver eight to ten years of operational service between depot inspections.

Digital engine controls, first introduced on Pratt & Whitney-powered F-16s in 1986, have also improved performance. Older hydro-mechanical controls had to be trimmed to operate at the most challenging point within the F-16’s flight envelope. Digital engine controls automatically adjust to the operating environment, so that they optimize engine performance at all points within the flight envelope. All engines being built today for the F-16 have digital engine controls.

*Commonality*
With all the varieties of the F-16 produced through the years, the US Air Force decided to standardize its F-16 fleet to simplify logistics, maintenance, and training. The service, building on the success of the MLU program, implemented the Common Configuration Implementation Program (CCIP) in 1997 to bring all of the Block 40/42/50/52 into a common avionics configuration.

The CCIP added color displays, common missile warning systems, and an improved modular mission computer to Block 40/42 and Block 50/52 F-16s as well as an advanced datalink, called Link-16, that is standard for US and NATO aircraft. The upgrade also included the multi-service standard joint helmet-mounted cueing system (JHMCS). This system works with the high-off-boresight AIM-9X air-to-air missile as well as with other slewable sensors and provides the pilot with other situational awareness and navigation data without looking in the cockpit. More than 200 Block 50/52 and 420 Block 40/42 aircraft were involved in the program. The Air National Guard (ANG), Air Force Reserve Command (AFRC), and active duty Air Force units are now operational with the upgrades. This program successfully completed in 2011, and now all of the US active duty aircraft fly with common/compatible systems. 

Exceptions include Block 30/32 F-16s at the Aggressor squadrons in Nevada and Alaska and Block 25 F-16s in training squadrons at Luke AFB, Arizona. Block 25 and Block 30/32 aircraft are concentrated in Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve Command units. A few Reserve Component units do already fly more advanced versions of the F-16.

*Block 60 And Beyond*
The F-16 Block 60, also known as the Desert Falcon, is the most advanced F-16 produced to date. An internal, forward-looking infrared navigation sensor mounted as a ball turret on the upper left nose is the main feature that distinguishes the Block 60 from previous F-16s. Both single- and two-seat aircraft carry conformal fuel tanks.

The Desert Falcon’s increased-thrust GE-132 engine helps compensate for the increase in weight and payload over the basic F-16. Internal differences, on the other hand, add up to a huge improvement in capability.

The Desert Falcon has many automated modes, including autopilot, auto-throttle, an automatic ground collision avoidance system, and a pilot-actuated recovery system. The recovery system allows pilots to recover the aircraft with the push of a button the moment they sense they have lost situational awareness. The Block 60’s electronic warfare system, produced by Northrop Grumman, is the most sophisticated subsystem on the aircraft. It provides threat warning, threat emitter locating capability, and increased situational awareness to pilots. A fiber-optic databus handles the throughput and speed needed for many of these systems. The maintenance system is laptop-based.

The APG-80 agile beam radar underpins many of the new capabilities of the Block 60. The radar, produced by Northrop Grumman, is an advanced electronically scanned array offering much greater detection ranges. The radar can continuously search for and track multiple targets and simultaneously perform multiple functions such as air-to-air search and track, air-to-ground targeting, and terrain following. The radar vastly improves the pilot’s situational awareness.

Block 60’s General Electric F110-GE-132 turbofan engine produces approximately 32,500 pounds of thrust in maximum afterburner. The engine is a derivative of the F110-GE-129 engine that powers the majority of F-16C fighters worldwide.

*The Evolution Continues . . .*
In recent years, significant improvements in F-16 capability have been developed and added to the stream of software and systems upgrades that have been a part of the program from its inception. Most recently, the US Air Force is fielding the Automated Ground Collision Avoidance System, or AGCAS, which provides the pilot with improved situational awareness of imminent collision with the ground. The system can take control of the aircraft to avoid a collision if the pilot doesn’t respond to the visual cues.

Additionally, to implement customer requirements for newer, more advanced capabilities and to meet the data processing loads required to fulfill those requirements, the avionics configuration for the F-16V has been developed to keep the F-16 capable and relevant. The V configuration incorporates an improved MMC; upgraded programmable displays generator; an active electronically scanned array radar; a large, high-resolution center pedestal display; and integrated control for the various electronic warfare displays and systems all supported by a gigabit Ethernet architecture.

*Still Exceptional*
In the 40 years since the YF-16 was flown for the first time in the Air Force Flight Test Center at Edwards AFB, California, it has continued to evolve to meet new requirements for each of the twenty-six customers who operate the F-16 as their front-line fighter. The first production F-16 rolled out of the factory in Fort Worth in August 1978. Since then, more than 4,500 F-16s have rolled off assembly lines in five countries. The F-16 will continue to serve as a front-line fighter and sustainment will extend well beyond 2030.

The present state of the F-16 encompasses a broad range of configurations. While the earliest F-16s perch atop poles for public display, others test the latest weapon and sensor technologies. Those rolling off the factory line represent the most advanced fourth-generation fighter produced today. Even though the F-16 has been flying for forty years, its evolution continues to build on the fundamental strengths of its original design.

Code One Magazine: F-16 Evolution


F-16 fighting Falcon






F-16 Block60

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## fatman17

The SC said:


> *F-16 Evolution*
> 
> All F-16s are not created equal. Fighting Falcons rolling out of the factory today are nothing like earlier versions. Some differences are visible—larger control surfaces; wider inlet; tinted canopy; squared landing lights; and various antennas, vents, bumps, and blisters. Most differences require more than the naked eye to see—structural beef-ups, improved engines, digital electronics, vastly increased computing capacity, and software changes to accommodate new functions, sensors, and weapons.
> 
> The all-glass cockpit (no mechanical gauges) of the latest F-16s is the manifestation of many of these improvements. Three large five- by seven-inch color multifunction displays transmit information from a variety of sensors to the pilot in straightforward color graphics. The cockpit features hands-on throttle and side-stick switch controls, night vision goggles-compatible lighting, a color moving map, and a large head-up display. A helmet-mounted cueing system allows pilots to target weapons by simply turning their heads.
> 
> *Beginnings*
> The original F-16 was designed as a lightweight air-to-air day fighter. Air-to-ground missions immediately transformed the first production F-16s into multirole fighters. The F-16s that followed expanded and refined these roles with beyond-visual-range missiles, infrared sensors, precision-guided munitions, and many other capabilities. Current and planned versions of the F-16 build on these refinements, enhancing capabilities even further.
> 
> But the fundamental strengths of the original design remain. At the heart of every Fighting Falcon is the lightweight fighter concept championed by Col. John Boyd and the other members of what came to be known as the Lightweight Fighter Mafia in the US Air Force and Department of Defense. This group favored simple and small fighter designs that could change direction and speed faster than their potential adversaries—designs that were harder to detect; designs that were inexpensive to produce, operate, and maintain. The Fighter Mafia advocated using technology to increase effectiveness or reduce cost. They went so far as to question and thoroughly analyze the basic assumptions of how fighters were judged and compared.
> 
> Engineers in Fort Worth transformed these ideas into reality in the 1970s. The resulting lightweight fighter combined a host of advanced technologies that had never been used in operational fighters. A blended wing-body, variable camber wings, and forebody strakes provided extra lift and control. Fly-by-wire flight controls improved response time and replaced heavy hydro-mechanical systems with lighter and smaller electronic systems. Relaxed static stability, made possible by the fly-by-wire system, greatly enhanced agility and stability. A side-mounted throttle and stick, head-up display, thirty-degree seat back angle, hands-on controls, and bubble canopy improved the pilot’s g-tolerance and situational awareness.
> 
> All of these technologies had been explored before in a variety of other aircraft and research programs. But the F-16 prototype, or YF-16, was the first airplane to incorporate all of them into a producible design.
> 
> The development of the YF-16 optimized a design for performance. The evolution of the production F-16s, on the other hand, became a balancing act between adding and improving capabilities and maintaining the original design’s optimized performance.
> 
> Capability improvements can take many forms: countermeasures, infrared sensors, laser targeting devices, missionized rear cockpits, dorsal fairings, datalinks, satellite communications, helmet-mounted cueing systems, conformal fuel tanks, large color displays, all-glass cockpits, improved stores (reconnaissance pods, weapons, and other wing-mounted systems), and auto-recovery systems. Each new capability benefits from its own evolutionary process. All of these improvement leaps are packed into an airframe still capable of sustaining nine g’s and of out-performing other fourth-generation fighters.
> 
> Pratt & Whitney and General Electric have added to the evolution with impressive improvements in engine performance. The original Pratt & Whitney engine on the YF-16 developed about 23,000 pounds of thrust. The engines on the Block 50/52 aircraft develop nearly 30,000 pounds of thrust. The GE F110-GE-132 engine on the Block 60 F-16 is rated at 32,500 pounds of thrust. So, even though the F-16’s overall weight has increased, its thrust-to-weight ratio has improved as well.
> 
> However, the Lightweight Fighter Mafia will point out that thrust-to-weight ratio is not the only indicator of aircraft performance. The figure doesn’t account for the effects of wing loading and aerodynamic drag. A better measure of performance is energy rate (or Ps), which is a function of thrust, weight, velocity, and drag. Every external payload extracts a performance price in aerodynamic drag. And F-16s rarely fly without a few stores hanging under the wing.
> 
> Technology comes to the rescue again. Advances in electronic miniaturization have resulted in lighter, more compact hardware that, in turn, significantly reduces drag. The latest navigation and targeting pods, for example, are smaller, lighter, and aerodynamically cleaner than first-generation pods. Electronic countermeasure systems have shrunk, too, and have more recently found their way under the F-16’s skin, eliminating even more drag. Weaponeers are making bombs and missiles smaller, lighter, and more streamlined. Drag reductions have often accompanied efforts to add more systems and weapons to the airplane and to make the airplane less detectible and more survivable.
> 
> While the F-16 today benefits from the electronic revolution, the original designers did not anticipate it. In fact, they purposely kept the aircraft as dense as possible to prevent additional systems—and the extra weight they would bring—from being placed inside the airframe. Technology advances have allowed much more capability to be packed into that same space or, in some cases, in much less space.
> 
> *Building Blocks*
> Keeping up with all the varieties of the F-16 is no small task. The job is simplified, though, because most changes to the F-16 are made in groups, or blocks, to track items on the production line. Whenever a new-production configuration for the F-16 is established, the block number increases.
> 
> The first production aircraft following the two YF prototypes and the eight full-scale development F-16s were Blocks 1 and 5. (From Block 30/32 on, a major block designation ending in 0 signifies a General Electric engine; one ending in 2 signifies a Pratt & Whitney engine.) The current highest operational block designation, however, is Block 60, which is flown by the United Arab Emirates.
> 
> Significant modification programs have their own designation as well such as the Mid-Life Upgrade and the Common Configuration Improvement Program. The latest proposed significant modification for the F-16 is called the F-16V (V standing for Viper).
> 
> The A in F-16A refers to Blocks 1 through 20 single-seat aircraft. The B in F-16B refers to the two-seat version. The letters C and D were substituted for A and B, respectively, beginning with Block 25. The new series letters emphasize the major differences occurring between Blocks 15 and 25. Block 60 denotes the transition from the F-16C/D to the F-16E/F.
> 
> *Full-Scale Development: Production Predecessors*
> The YF-16 was chosen over the YF-17 in the Lightweight Fighter competition in 1975. Work began on the first of eight full-scale development, or FSD, F-16s, incorporating the first major—mostly internal—design changes. The designers were intent on retaining the outstanding flying qualities of the original design. So no changes that would degrade the prototype’s aerodynamics were made. At the same time, they had to adapt the airplane to amplified air-to-ground requirements. The overall length grew by thirteen inches. The nose acquired a slight droop to accommodate the Westinghouse APG-66 multimode radar.
> 
> To respond to the need for larger air-to-ground payloads, the wing and tail surfaces were enlarged to carry the extra weight. The wing area grew from 280 to 300 square feet, which is about as much as it could grow without requiring additional internal bulkheads to lengthen the fuselage. The horizontal tails and ventral fins grew about fifteen percent. The flaperons and speed brakes grew by about ten percent. An additional hardpoint was placed under each wing, giving the aircraft a total of nine. The airframe was also structurally strengthened.
> 
> Other changes in the FSD aircraft included a lighter weight Stencel SIIIS ejection seat, a simpler single door instead of twin doors on the nose landing gear well, and a self-contained engine starter. The canopy transparency was strengthened to withstand a four-pound, 350-knot bird strike. The radome was hinged to ease access to the radar.
> 
> The YF-16 validated the aerodynamics, propulsion, and handling qualities of the aircraft’s basic design. With the major design issues out of the way, engineers concentrated more on internal details—such as the electrical system, hydraulics, and avionics—with the FSD aircraft. The FSD aircraft had no block numbers, though they are often referred to as Block 0 F-16s.
> 
> *Blocks 1 And 5: Going Operational*
> After the prototype and FSD programs, the first Block 1 F-16 (serial number 78-0001) was flown for the first time in August 1978 and delivered to the US Air Force that same month. The aircraft was first assigned to the 388th Tactical Fighter Wing at Hill AFB, Utah, and later became an interceptor with the 125th Fighter Interceptor Group in Jacksonville, Florida, followed by a tour at the 158th Fighter Interceptor Group in Burlington, Vermont. It then was flown by the 127th Tactical Fighter Wing at Selfridge Air National Guard Base, Michigan. The aircraft was eventually sent to Lowry AFB, Colorado, as a student trainer. The first operational F-16 is now on display at Langley AFB, Virginia.
> 
> Ninety-four Block 1 and 197 Block 5 F-16s were manufactured through 1981 for the US Air Force and four European Participating Air Forces. Most Block 1 and Block 5 aircraft were upgraded in 1982 to a Block 10 standard through a program called Pacer Loft. New-production Block 10 aircraft (312 total) were built through 1980. The differences between these early F-16 versions are relatively minor. All production F-16s beginning with Block 1 were outfitted with ACES II ejection seats.
> 
> A word about nicknames: Tactical Air Command, now Air Combat Command, officially christened the F-16A as the Fighting Falcon. But that name never found wide use on the flightline. As with many aircraft, the unofficial nickname the pilots pinned on the F-16 did catch on: Viper.
> 
> *Block 15: Most Produced*
> The 330th production F-16 was the first of 983 Block 15 aircraft manufactured in five countries and subsequently assembled on three production lines (Fort Worth, Belgium, and Netherlands). The production of the Block 15 spanned fourteen years. Of the more than 4,500 F-16s manufactured to date, Block 15 aircraft are the most numerous, and many of them are still flying today in air forces around the world.
> 
> The transition from Block 10 to Block 15 resulted in two hardpoints added to the inlet chin and designated as stations 5R and 5L. The nearly thirty percent larger horizontal tail is the most noticeable difference between Block 15 and previous F-16 versions. The larger tail offset the shift in center of gravity brought on by the weight of the sensors and structures of the two chin hardpoints. The larger tail also provides better stability and control authority, especially at higher angles of attack.
> 
> Block 15 aircraft received an operational capability upgrade, or OCU, beginning in 1988. The upgrade added a data transfer unit and a radar altimeter. The radar was improved, and the fire control and stores control computers were expanded. OCU also allowed Block 15 aircraft to fire the AGM-119 Penguin anti-ship, the AGM-65 Maverick air-to-ground, and the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile, or AMRAAM. The Block 15 aircraft built from 1988 had OCU, a larger wide-angle head-up display, and the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 engine. Fifteen air arms fly Block 15 aircraft today, including the US Navy.
> 
> The Air Defense F-16 is a variant of the Block 15 OCU F-16 equipped with additional systems for the air-to-air role. It has improved APG-66A radar, an APX-109 identification friend or foe interrogator, ARC-200 high-frequency radio, and a 150,000-candlepower spotlight mounted on the left side of the forward fuselage. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, 271 Block 15 airframes were converted to the Air Defense configuration. The first converted aircraft were delivered in early 1989. All of the aircraft initially went to the Air National Guard. The Guard stopped flying the Air Defense version of the F-16 in 2007. Air Defense F-16s are still flown by Jordan and Thailand.
> 
> *Block 25: From A To C*
> The Block 25 aircraft marks the evolution from the F-16A/B to the F-16C/D. Block 25 enabled the F-16 to carry AMRAAM as a baseline weapon as well as carrying night/precision ground-attack capabilities. An improved fire control computer, an improved stores management computer, and an inertial navigation system were added along with multifunction displays, new data transfer unit, radar altimeter, and anti-jam UHF radio.
> 
> The Block 25 F-16 also received the improved Westinghouse (now Northrop Grumman) AN/APG-68 radar, which offered increased range, better resolution, and more operating modes. Block 25 featured new upfront controls, a larger head-up display, and two head-down multifunction displays. All Block 25s were originally powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200, but the engines have since been upgraded to the -220E configuration. The first of 244 Block 25 F-16s flew in June 1984. Block 25 is the only F-16 to be employed exclusively by the US Air Force.
> 
> *Block 30/32: New Engine Choices*
> Block 30/32 added two new engines to the F-16 line—the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 and the General Electric F110-GE-100. The aircraft’s engine bays are common to both engines by design. A larger inlet was introduced at Block 30D for the GE-powered F-16s, which are often called big-mouth F-16s. The larger inlet, formally called the modular common inlet duct, allows the GE engine to produce its full thrust at lower airspeeds.
> 
> The smaller inlet, called a normal shock inlet, has not changed for the -220 and subsequent Pratt & Whitney engines. A Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 engine powered the Variable Inflight Stability Test Aircraft, or VISTA/F-16, which featured the larger inlet. This is the only F-16 with a large inlet and a Pratt & Whitney engine.
> 
> Block 30/32 can carry AGM-88A high-speed anti-radiation missiles, or HARM. Like the Block 25, it can carry the AGM-65 Maverick missile. Changes at Block 30D allowed the aircraft to carry twice as many chaff/flare dispensers for self-protection, and the forward radar warning receiver antennas were relocated to the leading-edge flap. These beer can-shaped antennas have since been retrofitted onto all previous F-16C/D aircraft. Block 30/32 has a crash-survivable flight data recorder, voice message unit, and expanded memory for the multifunction displays. The first of 733 Block 30/32 F-16s was delivered in July 1987; the airplane was manufactured through 1989.
> 
> The F-16N manufactured for the US Navy was a Block 30 variant. It was powered by the GE F110-GE-100 engine and had the small inlet associated with early Block 30 production. The F-16N also carried the APG-66 radar of the F-16A models and minor structural differences for meeting Navy requirements. The aircraft had no internal 20-mm gun. Twenty-two F-16Ns and four TF-16Ns (two-seaters) were built from 1987 to 1988. They were used for dissimilar air-to-air training with three Navy adversary squadrons and at the Navy’s Fighter Weapons School (Top Gun) until 1994.
> 
> The US Navy once again began flying Fighting Falcons in early 2002 when the first of ten single-seat and four two-seat Block 15 F-16s were delivered to NAS Fallon in Nevada (the current home of Top Gun). These aircraft, with distinctive paint schemes, are low-hour F-16A/Bs that had been in storage.
> 
> *Block 40/42 Night/Precision Attack*
> With Block 40/42, the F-16 gained capabilities for navigation and precision attack at night and in all weather conditions and traded its original analog flight controls for a digital system and new core avionics.
> 
> The landing gear of Block 40/42 was beefed up and extended to handle the Low Altitude Navigation and Targeting Infrared for Night, or LANTIRN, targeting and navigation pods and more extensive air-to-ground loads. By design, the landing gear bay doors bulge slightly to handle the larger wheels and tires. The LANTIRN pods also necessitated moving the landing lights from the struts of the main landing gear to the leading inside edge of the nose gear door. The larger wide angle collimating, or WAC, head-up display was needed for LANTIRN as well. This wide-angle raster HUD, as it is called, is capable of displaying the infrared image from the LANTIRN navigation pod used in low-altitude night navigation.
> 
> The precision weapons incorporated by Block 40/42 include the GBU-10, GBU-12, and GBU-24 Paveway family of laser-guided bombs as well as the GBU-15 glide bomb.
> 
> Block 40/42 also featured the addition of the APG-68(V5) radar, automatic terrain following (part of the LANTIRN system), global positioning system, full provisions for internal electronic countermeasures, an enhanced-envelope gun sight, and a capability for bombing moving targets.
> 
> Production of Block 40/42 began in 1988 and ran through 1995. Twenty-one more Block 40s were built for Egypt, and ten single-seat Block 40s were built for Bahrain during 1999 to 2000.
> 
> US Air Force Block 40 aircraft are now equipped and flying missions with night vision goggles and with a datalink system. This system receives highly accurate position information from a forward air controller on the ground. The system then inputs the data into the weapon system computer and displays it as a waypoint on the head-up display.
> 
> *Block 20 And MLU*
> Block 20 refers to new-production F-16As that incorporate significant avionic enhancements, including a modular mission computer, or MMC, replacing three other computers. The processing speed of the computer is more than 740 times faster than the computer in the original F-16. It has more than 180 times the memory. An improved radar, the APG-66(V2), features increased detection and tracking ranges and the ability to track more targets.
> 
> The Mid-Life Update program, or MLU, refers to the 300 retrofitted Block 15 F-16A/B Belgian, Danish, Dutch, and Norwegian aircraft. These aircraft were also structurally upgraded to meet an 8,000-hour airframe life span in a program called Falcon UP (for unos programmum).
> 
> Block 20 and MLU F-16s have wide-angle head-up displays, color multifunction cockpit displays, upfront controls (a set of programmable pushbuttons placed just below the head-up display), a Block 50-style side stick and throttle, ring laser inertial navigation systems, miniaturized global positioning system receivers, digital terrain systems, improved data modems, and advanced interrogators for identifying friendly or foe aircraft. The lighting in the cockpit is compatible with night-vision systems. The aircraft also have provisions for microwave landing systems and helmet-mounted displays.
> 
> *Block 50/52 Wild Weasel Plus*
> The first Block 50/52 was delivered to the US Air Force in 1991. The Block 50/52 F-16 is recognized for its ability to carry the AGM-88 HARM in the suppression of enemy air defenses, or SEAD, missions. The F-16 can carry as many as four HARMs.
> 
> An avionics launcher interface computer allows the F-16 to launch the HARM missile. US Air Force F-16s have been upgraded to carry the HARM Targeting System, or HTS, pod on the left intake hardpoint so it can be combined with laser targeting pods designed to fit on the right intake hardpoint. The HTS pod contains a hypersensitive receiver that detects, classifies, and ranges threats and passes the information to the HARM and to the cockpit displays. With the targeting system, the F-16 has full autonomous HARM capability.
> 
> The Block 50/52 F-16 continued to be improved, and the current aircraft sold to the FMS customers is equipped with the APG-68(V9) radar, which offers longer range detection against air targets and higher reliability. The Block 50/52 now includes embedded global positioning system/inertial navigation system, a larger capacity data transfer cartridge, a digital terrain system data transfer cartridge, a cockpit compatible with night vision systems, an improved data modem, an ALR-56M advanced radar warning receiver, an ALE-47 threat-adaptive countermeasure system, and an advanced interrogator for identifying friendly aircraft.
> 
> In the cockpit, an upgraded programmable display generator has four times the memory and seven times the processor speed of the system it replaces. New VHF/FM antennas increase reception ranges. The Block 50/52 is powered by increased performance engines—the General Electric F110-GE-129 and the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229—each rated to deliver over 29,000 pounds of thrust in afterburner. Block 50/52 are the first F-16 versions to fully integrate the AGM-84 Harpoon anti-shipping missile.
> 
> New-production Block 50/52 aircraft ordered after 1996 include color multifunction displays, the modular mission computer, and a multichannel video recorder. All international versions of the Block 50/52 have LANTIRN capability.
> 
> More than 800 Block 50/52s have been delivered from production lines in Fort Worth, Korea, and Turkey. The Fort Worth production line is currently the only active F-16 line. The other production lines have completed their production runs and have been shut down.
> 
> *Engines*
> The engines that power the F-16 have improved in more ways than in maximum thrust. Engines used in early F-16s required from six to eight seconds to spool up from idle to afterburner. Since then, electronic controls have replaced hydro-mechanical systems. The changes allow current engines to go from idle to full afterburner in two seconds. Engine reliability and ease of maintenance have also been improved significantly. Today’s F-16 engines can be expected to deliver eight to ten years of operational service between depot inspections.
> 
> Digital engine controls, first introduced on Pratt & Whitney-powered F-16s in 1986, have also improved performance. Older hydro-mechanical controls had to be trimmed to operate at the most challenging point within the F-16’s flight envelope. Digital engine controls automatically adjust to the operating environment, so that they optimize engine performance at all points within the flight envelope. All engines being built today for the F-16 have digital engine controls.
> 
> *Commonality*
> With all the varieties of the F-16 produced through the years, the US Air Force decided to standardize its F-16 fleet to simplify logistics, maintenance, and training. The service, building on the success of the MLU program, implemented the Common Configuration Implementation Program (CCIP) in 1997 to bring all of the Block 40/42/50/52 into a common avionics configuration.
> 
> The CCIP added color displays, common missile warning systems, and an improved modular mission computer to Block 40/42 and Block 50/52 F-16s as well as an advanced datalink, called Link-16, that is standard for US and NATO aircraft. The upgrade also included the multi-service standard joint helmet-mounted cueing system (JHMCS). This system works with the high-off-boresight AIM-9X air-to-air missile as well as with other slewable sensors and provides the pilot with other situational awareness and navigation data without looking in the cockpit. More than 200 Block 50/52 and 420 Block 40/42 aircraft were involved in the program. The Air National Guard (ANG), Air Force Reserve Command (AFRC), and active duty Air Force units are now operational with the upgrades. This program successfully completed in 2011, and now all of the US active duty aircraft fly with common/compatible systems.
> 
> Exceptions include Block 30/32 F-16s at the Aggressor squadrons in Nevada and Alaska and Block 25 F-16s in training squadrons at Luke AFB, Arizona. Block 25 and Block 30/32 aircraft are concentrated in Air National Guard and Air Force Reserve Command units. A few Reserve Component units do already fly more advanced versions of the F-16.
> 
> *Block 60 And Beyond*
> The F-16 Block 60, also known as the Desert Falcon, is the most advanced F-16 produced to date. An internal, forward-looking infrared navigation sensor mounted as a ball turret on the upper left nose is the main feature that distinguishes the Block 60 from previous F-16s. Both single- and two-seat aircraft carry conformal fuel tanks.
> 
> The Desert Falcon’s increased-thrust GE-132 engine helps compensate for the increase in weight and payload over the basic F-16. Internal differences, on the other hand, add up to a huge improvement in capability.
> 
> The Desert Falcon has many automated modes, including autopilot, auto-throttle, an automatic ground collision avoidance system, and a pilot-actuated recovery system. The recovery system allows pilots to recover the aircraft with the push of a button the moment they sense they have lost situational awareness. The Block 60’s electronic warfare system, produced by Northrop Grumman, is the most sophisticated subsystem on the aircraft. It provides threat warning, threat emitter locating capability, and increased situational awareness to pilots. A fiber-optic databus handles the throughput and speed needed for many of these systems. The maintenance system is laptop-based.
> 
> The APG-80 agile beam radar underpins many of the new capabilities of the Block 60. The radar, produced by Northrop Grumman, is an advanced electronically scanned array offering much greater detection ranges. The radar can continuously search for and track multiple targets and simultaneously perform multiple functions such as air-to-air search and track, air-to-ground targeting, and terrain following. The radar vastly improves the pilot’s situational awareness.
> 
> Block 60’s General Electric F110-GE-132 turbofan engine produces approximately 32,500 pounds of thrust in maximum afterburner. The engine is a derivative of the F110-GE-129 engine that powers the majority of F-16C fighters worldwide.
> 
> *The Evolution Continues . . .*
> In recent years, significant improvements in F-16 capability have been developed and added to the stream of software and systems upgrades that have been a part of the program from its inception. Most recently, the US Air Force is fielding the Automated Ground Collision Avoidance System, or AGCAS, which provides the pilot with improved situational awareness of imminent collision with the ground. The system can take control of the aircraft to avoid a collision if the pilot doesn’t respond to the visual cues.
> 
> Additionally, to implement customer requirements for newer, more advanced capabilities and to meet the data processing loads required to fulfill those requirements, the avionics configuration for the F-16V has been developed to keep the F-16 capable and relevant. The V configuration incorporates an improved MMC; upgraded programmable displays generator; an active electronically scanned array radar; a large, high-resolution center pedestal display; and integrated control for the various electronic warfare displays and systems all supported by a gigabit Ethernet architecture.
> 
> *Still Exceptional*
> In the 40 years since the YF-16 was flown for the first time in the Air Force Flight Test Center at Edwards AFB, California, it has continued to evolve to meet new requirements for each of the twenty-six customers who operate the F-16 as their front-line fighter. The first production F-16 rolled out of the factory in Fort Worth in August 1978. Since then, more than 4,500 F-16s have rolled off assembly lines in five countries. The F-16 will continue to serve as a front-line fighter and sustainment will extend well beyond 2030.
> 
> The present state of the F-16 encompasses a broad range of configurations. While the earliest F-16s perch atop poles for public display, others test the latest weapon and sensor technologies. Those rolling off the factory line represent the most advanced fourth-generation fighter produced today. Even though the F-16 has been flying for forty years, its evolution continues to build on the fundamental strengths of its original design.
> 
> Code One Magazine: F-16 Evolution
> 
> 
> F-16 fighting Falcon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 Block60


 
repeat post.


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## Bratva

Considering It took Israel F-16 two missiles to destroy Hezbollah UAV, Our Guys did a job well done

The Aviationist » Hezbollah behind mysterious spy drone over Israel. The first one the IAF missed to hit (at the first attempt).

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## Informant

Windjammer said:


> I know for a fact that a high level PAF delegation spent a week in the States.....guess i need to catch up.



Windy SAAB


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## The SC

fatman17 said:


> repeat post.


Still good for a reminder, after all these pages. Some people can not read all the pages and are still asking about the variants, so it is a good reminder or a good source for new people.


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## Windjammer

Informant said:


> Windy SAAB


Any follow ups...... the air attache seems to be occupied again.

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## Informant

Windjammer said:


> Any follow ups...... the air attache seems to be occupied again.



My lips are sealed. Plus meri kya info jo apkay paas ho, aapka level hi bauhat upar hai hamse

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## Alfa-Fighter

mafiya said:


> Considering It took Israel F-16 two missiles to destroy Hezbollah UAV, Our Guys did a job well done
> 
> The Aviationist » Hezbollah behind mysterious spy drone over Israel. The first one the IAF missed to hit (at the first attempt).


Article is based on assumption, one can also assume , 1st plane gone to close for naked contact and then moved away and 2nd plane fire a missile . which is the 1st missile.


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## Bratva

Amazing USAF F-16 Videos   . Stunning Dog fighting maneuvers , Live weapon release and gun firing , Night time flying and NVG, Low level flyings plus pilots and crew having fun   

*Fighter Pilot - The Memoirs of a Legendary F-16 B-Course Class*

*



*
*13-ABK Gunfighters F-16 B-Course Graduation*

*



*
*13-EBG F-16 B Course Graduation Video*

*



*

P.S. Youtube videos.

@gambit @Oscar @Munir @Windjammer @Fulcrum15

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## Donatello

mafiya said:


> Amazing USAF F-16 Videos   . Stunning Dog fighting maneuvers , Live weapon release and gun firing , Night time flying and NVG, Low level flyings plus pilots and crew having fun
> 
> *Fighter Pilot - The Memoirs of a Legendary F-16 B-Course Class*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *13-ABK Gunfighters F-16 B-Course Graduation*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *13-EBG F-16 B Course Graduation Video*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> 
> P.S. Youtube videos.
> 
> @gambit @Oscar @Munir @Windjammer @Fulcrum15



The Red Flag ones were pretty impressive too. I wonder if PAF would ever release such footage.


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## Windjammer

Donatello said:


> The Red Flag ones were pretty impressive too. I wonder if PAF would ever release such footage.


The HUD footage from Pak/Saudi exercise did end up on e-bay and was snapped by a very keen collector in US for a four figure sum.

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## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> The HUD footage from Pak/Saudi exercise did end up on e-bay and was snapped by a very keen collector in US for a four figure sum.



You mean the one where F-16s were up against the RSAF f-15s and Typhoons?

Lol, why was it on ebay?


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## Windjammer

Donatello said:


> You mean the one where F-16s were up against the RSAF f-15s and Typhoons?
> 
> Lol, why was it on ebay?


Yup that's the one, a PAF collector put it up, i found out a bit late but i believe he has some other stuff like the Afghan kills in the 80s.

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## nomi007

block 52 in 52c *temperature*

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## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> Yup that's the one, a PAF collector put it up, i found out a bit late but i believe he has some other stuff like the Afghan kills in the 80s.



Ahh, any way one could get a hold of it?


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## nomi007



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## Munir

Some time ago someone asked about the order of sniper pods... Here it is...

*Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod (ATP) System, Replenishment Line Replaceable Unit Spares, Bench Stock, Support Equipment, Technical Orders, Contractor Technical Support (CTS) and User Familiarization*



This market survey is being conducted to identify potential sources that may possess the expertise, capabilities, and experience to meet the requirements for manufacturing, testing and delivering AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod (ATP) Systems, Replenishment Line Replaceable Unit (LRU) Spares, Bench Stock, Support Equipment, Technical Orders, Contractor Technical Support (CTS) and User Familiarization for the Sniper ATP system. The level of security clearance and amount of foreign participation in this requirement has been outlined in the Advanced Targeting Pod (ATP) Programs, AN/AAQ-28, Laser Infrared Targeting and Navigating (LITENING), AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod – Sensor Enhancement (ATP-SE) Security Classification Declassification Guide (SCDG), 1 July 2010.* C*ontractors/Institutions responding to this market research are placed on notice that participation in this survey may not ensure participation in future solicitations or contract awards. The government will not reimburse participants for any expenses associated with their participation in this survey.


*INSTRUCTIONS:*



Below is a document containing a description of the sustainment requirement and a Contractor Capability Survey, which allows you to provide your company’s capability.


If, after reviewing these documents, you desire to participate in the market research, you should provide documentation that supports your company’s capability in meeting these requirements. Failure to provide documentation may result in the government being unable to adequately assess your capabilities. If you lack sufficient experience in a particular area, please provide details explaining how you would overcome the lack of experience/capabilities in order to perform that portion of the requirement (i.e., teaming, subcontracting, etc.)


Both large and small businesses are encouraged to participate in this Market Research. Joint ventures or teaming arrangements are encouraged.

4. Questions relative to this market survey should be addressed to Candace Gibson, (478) 926-1384.


*REQUIREMENTS DESCRIPTION*
*AN/AAQ-33Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod (ATP) Systems, Replenishment Line Replaceable Unit (LRU) Spares, Bench Stock, Support Equipment, Technical Orders, Contractor Technical Support (CTS) and User Familiarization for the Sniper ATP *

*PURPOSE/DESCRIPTION*

We are conducting market research to identify potential sources that may possess the expertise, capabilities, and experience to meet the requirements for manufacture, test, and delivery of Sniper ATP Systems, Replenishment LRU Spares, Bench Stock, Support Equipment, Technical Orders, CTS and User Familiarization for the Sniper ATP systems sold to Foreign Military Air Forces to include Iraq, Pakistan and Taiwan through Foreign Military Sales. This acquisition of supplies and services is for five years through CY2020. This requirement is to sustain 125 operational systems flying an average of 12 hours per month at an 85% operational availability.

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## krash

Last Samuri said:


> The main factor was Rafael and typhoon came top in six months of evaluation from hundreds of factors.



You do know that Rafael was rejected and kicked out of the competition? And then reinstated as a competitor after some French "persuasion"?



> a senior defence ministry official made it clear on Thursday that Rafael has been rejected at the technical evaluation stage for failing to meet minimum performance requirements that had been detailed in the tender document.


French Rafale out of race for IAF fighters - Indian Express

Ouch.....


On topic:

Anyone know if the Jordanian birds have started stretching their wings over their new home?

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## HAIDER

@Windjammer What is the cost of per sortie , F16 and JF17. ( cover maintenance,crew ,ammo,gas etc etc)


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## MastanKhan

krash said:


> You do know that Rafael was rejected and kicked out of the competition? And then reinstated as a competitor after some French "persuasion"?
> 
> 
> French Rafale out of race for IAF fighters - Indian Express
> 
> Ouch.....
> 
> 
> On topic:
> 
> Anyone know if the Jordanian birds have started stretching their wings over their new home?


 
Hi,

Kicking out rafale initially, was a strategic ploy by india---they took the air out of the sails of france---. The french were being setup for what the indians would be demanding later---. To push the deal forward---one of the participants supposedly suggested of cancelling the radar & other weapons systems for JF 17 for the deal on rafale to re-start.

after pak decided to go against the rafale---india was pre determined to go for that aircraft right from gitgo. That was the most superior aircraft that pak could have gotten with least restrictions.

Secondly---this aircraft had been in service for awhile---so basically most of the bugs had been taken out & all systems working above par.

Paf will pay heavily for their error.

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## Munir

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Kicking out rafale initially, was a strategic ploy by india---they took the air out of the sails of france---. The french were being setup for what the indians would be demanding later---. To push the deal forward---one of the participants supposedly suggested of cancelling the radar & other weapons systems for JF 17 for the deal on rafale to re-start.
> 
> after pak decided to go against the rafale---india was pre determined to go for that aircraft right from gitgo. That was the most superior aircraft that pak could have gotten with least restrictions.
> 
> Secondly---this aircraft had been in service for awhile---so basically most of the bugs had been taken out & all systems working above par.
> 
> Paf will pay heavily for their error.



I agree that Rafale was best option back then but it does costs them not that much to get very near that plane...  Can't say more but we do have tested everything on the Rafale. Every single part. There is not much we do not know. And I can say it does cost a lot less... The French are money suckers second to none. We paid for that for the old Mirages we have...


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## Windjammer

HAIDER said:


> @Windjammer What is the cost of per sortie , F16 and JF17. ( cover maintenance,crew ,ammo,gas etc etc)


@Munir, is the best person to answer that.


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## araz

HAIDER said:


> @Windjammer What is the cost of per sortie , F16 and JF17. ( cover maintenance,crew ,ammo,gas etc etc)


I think there is a post on the forum about this. The costs are if I remember correctly $6000 for the 16s and 2000 for JFT.


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## nomi007

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=549387385173450

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## Indus Falcon

araz said:


> I think there is a post on the forum about this. The costs are if I remember correctly $6000 for the 16s and 2000 for JFT.



A US Air Force, F-16 Block 50 costs about $7,500 per flying hour
Under Budget Pressure, US Air Force Looks to LVC Training

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## nomi007

turn rate comparison of F-16 fighting falcon Vs F-4 phantom fighters.

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## Donatello

nomi007 said:


> turn rate comparison of F-16 fighting falcon Vs F-4 phantom fighters.




Would love to see one with F-16 vs JF-17!!

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## VCheng

Donatello said:


> Would love to see one with F-16 vs JF-17!!



Has there ever been a side by side aerobatic display between these two jets?


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## fatman17

YF-16, 1st flight 20th Jan-1974 and the rest is history!

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## dexter

*Exactly 4 years ago on June 26, 2010, PAF received first batch of latest version F-16C/D Block 52+ high tech fighter aircraft. Three aircraft were ferried from USA to Pakistan by PAF pilots.*

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## fatman17

SMSgt. Charles Neal helps Pakistan Air Force maintainers prepare an F-16 for the rigours of Red Flag on the Nellis Air Force Base flightline on July 22nd, 2010. A team of 162nd FW maintainers ensured Pakistan’s airmen had a successful first appearance at the advanced training exercise July 17-31. [USAF photo]

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## Windjammer

VCheng said:


> Has there ever been a side by side aerobatic display between these two jets?


So what's the next dig. !!

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## IceCold

Windjammer said:


> So what's the next dig. !!



JF-17 flying next to Erieye means that the two have established data link.


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## HRK

The Total Acquisition cost of Jordan for 16 units of Peace Falcon-I F-16 block-15 OCU (upgraded to ADF) was $ *220 million* (13.750 Avg.) including additional items as mention under, but on average the actual acquisition cost for every single bird was around *$10.815 million* during 1997 & 1998 see the table attached below (column: Unit Acquisition Value) or download the Excess Defense Articles report from the website of Defence Security Cooperation Agency USA








> On July 29th, 1996, *a $220 million *agreement was signed between the United States and Jordan authorizing the lease of 16 F-16 fighter jets (12 F-16A and 4 F-16B aircraft) to Jordan.
> 
> The agreement consisted of *two lease contracts *and a Letter of Offer and Acceptance (LoA). The first lease was a *no-cost lease for Jordan*, covering 13 aircraft (12 A models and 1 B model, *block 15 OCU's that were modified into ADF (Air Defense Fighters) versions*. Under the Arms Export Control Act, the DOD was able to provide these aircraft at a no-cost lease because they had flown off over 75 percent of their life (i.e. more than 3,000 hour). Three of the B-model aircraft still had more than 25 percent of their life left and they fall under the second $4.5 million lease. Both leases cover a 5 year period. The LOA is for $215 million, covering all costs associated with upgrading those aircraft, doing the structural modifications to them, the engine upgrades, providing the support equipment, the logistics, the training.
> 
> F-16 Air Forces - Jordan






> The Foreign Military Sales case, JO-D-SME, worth over *$215 million*, is for the purchase of support equipment, spares, and other related equipment to support sixteen leased F-l6s. The case supports two lease agreements. The ﬁrst agreement is a ﬁve-year no-cost lease for twelve F-16A aircraft, one F-16B aircraft, four F100-PW-200 engines, sixty-two pieces of support equipment, 1420 reparable items, and eight maintenance-training devices. These items were all deemed to have exceeded *75 *percent of their service life and under provisions in the Arms Export Control Act [§6l(a), AECA], could be "leased" at no cost, i.e., without requiring reimbursement for depreciation during the leased period. The second agreement provides a three-year lease for the remaining three F-16B aircraft. Reimbursement for depreciation costs is required for these aircraft since they each have more than 25 percent of their service life remaining. This lease is valued at *$1.6 million*.
> 
> The case also includes:
> 
> Structural Modification of the Aircraft
> 
> Modifications to the F100-PW-220E Engines
> 
> Aircraft Ground Support Equipment and Aircraft Spares
> 
> Alternate Mission Equipment
> 
> Engine Support Equipment and Engine Spares
> 
> Support Vehicles
> 
> Training Munitions
> 
> Precision Measuring Equipment Laboratory (PMEL) Equipment
> 
> Technical Orders and other Technical Data
> 
> ln-Country Logistical, Training, and Engineering Support
> 
> Pilot and Maintenance Training
> 
> Post-Program Engineering Support
> 
> Facility Design Services.
> http://www.disam.dsca.mil/pubs/21_1/Phillips.pdf



After 16 years of services in Jordan these birds should cost less, I would appreciate if someone can make a calculated guess about the acquisition cost of these F-16s for PAF using the above figures, my personal guess is around *$ 5-8 million* for every bird on average, almost one-third of the cost of JF-17 block -1.

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## fatman17

IceCold said:


> JF-17 flying next to Erieye means that the two have established data link.


 
no.....thats the ZDK's job.



HRK said:


> The Total Acquisition cost of Jordan for 16 units of Peace Falcon-I F-16 block-15 OCU (upgraded to ADF) was $ *220 million* (13.750 Avg.) including additional items as mention under, but on average the actual acquisition cost for every single bird was around *$10.815 million* during 1997 & 1998 see the table attached below (column: Unit Acquisition Value) or download the Excess Defense Articles report from the website of Defence Security Cooperation Agency USA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After 16 years of services in Jordan these birds should cost less, I would appreciate if someone can make a calculated guess about the acquisition cost of these F-16s for PAF using the above figures, my personal guess is around *$ 5-8 million* for every bird on average, almost one-third of the cost of JF-17 block -1.


 
the cost/benefit ratio was excellent for this purchase......however PAF wants to upgrade the engines.


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> no.....thats the ZDK's job.
> 
> 
> 
> the cost/benefit ratio was excellent for this purchase......however PAF wants to upgrade the engines.



What about more F-16s from Jordan, and putting them thru MLU as well?

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## Side-Winder

Ex-Jordanian F-16 ADFs upon arrival to PAF Base Mushaf. These aircraft are now part of No.19 MR Sqn inventory.

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## nomi007

IceCold said:


> JF-17 flying next to Erieye means that the two have established data link.


jf-17 can't establish data link with saab 2000

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## Stealth

IceCold said:


> JF-17 flying next to Erieye means that the two have established data link.


Photoshop image yaar...


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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> however PAF wants to upgrade the engines.



Any possibility of F100-PW-220E from Jordan ..... ??? they have 61 such engines but only around +40 F-16s ....


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## Bakho RDX Dada

these days Airforce plays the major role in wars..as you can these days US invasion on iraq was mostly made by US airf force and US army could not make successfull operations in Iraq....So more then our Army we should focus on our Airforce as these days without AirForce our other Naval and Army forces are useless...Unless we have a nuclear bomb...according to my opinion Pakistan does not have much amount of F-16 and F-16 is not the worlds best jetfighter there are alot others like F-15,F-22 Raptors and many other which we dont even know the names of it.no doubt we have talented pilots but we need to upgrade ourselves...We should spend most of our defense budget on airforce because I see our airforce more talented then other armed forces but our airforce is lacking technology and variety of updated Jetfighters...We are badly relying on our few F-16s given by US...!!!


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## Chak Bamu

Bakho RDX Dada said:


> these days Airforce plays the major role in wars..as you can these days US invasion on iraq was mostly made by US airf force and US army could not make successfull operations in Iraq....So more then our Army we should focus on our Airforce as these days without AirForce our other Naval and Army forces are useless...Unless we have a nuclear bomb...according to my opinion Pakistan does not have much amount of F-16 and F-16 is not the worlds best jetfighter there are alot others like F-15,F-22 Raptors and many other which we dont even know the names of it.no doubt we have talented pilots but we need to upgrade ourselves...We should spend most of our defense budget on airforce because I see our airforce more talented then other armed forces but our airforce is lacking technology and variety of updated Jetfighters...We are badly relying on our few F-16s given by US...!!!



Kiddo, read a bit before you post. Most of the issues have been discussed. Find them out, read about them, and then think about posting questions if you have any. Just making rambling posts is not going to get you any attention or praise.

By the way, do introduce your self here: Members Introduction

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## fatman17

HRK said:


> Any possibility of F100-PW-220E from Jordan ..... ??? they have 61 such engines but only around +40 F-16s ....


 
PAF may be using a different engine?

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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> PAF may be using a different engine?



its F100-PW-229 IPEs in blk-52.... sorry to bother ....
=============================
Edited: In MLU F-16

 F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR – 

the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of:

*14* F100-PW-220E engines







http://web.archive.org/web/20130516...il/PressReleases/36-b/2006/Pakistan_06-11.pdf

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## nomi007



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## fatman17



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## dexter

I first time posting my sketch on PDF hope you guys like it

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## HRK

dexter said:


> I first time posting my sketch on PDF hope you guys like it
> 
> View attachment 37164



Nice work 'Huzaifa' ......

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## dexter

HRK said:


> Nice work 'Huzaifa' ......



Thank you bro

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## nomi007

Pakistan air force F-16MLU armed with GBU-24 Laser guided bombs during redflag 2010 international exercise.

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## khanasifm

The notion that you need MLU for Air To Ground (ATG) guided weapon on Block 15 is wrong. This aircraft was part of Blk 15 OCU PAF received from USAF (14), and was one of the original 28 built for PAF. Its was not MLUed (at the time of Redflag, no bird slicer in the front of cockpit, may be now). PAF had ATG guided weapons on F16 from day one with French laser pod which were day light only (ATLIS II limitation). 

MLU bring night attack capability with Sniper Pods. 
Also the 14 Falcon UP structure and engine upgrade were requested/expected for 14 F16 (part of original 28 built for PAF) from USN or other to replace them as they were part of aggressor Sqd. and more extensively used then the USAF.

Post #7748 has old F16 with ATLIS II and Laser Guided GBU-10 2000 lb bombs.

Redflag PAF flew with ATLIS II


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## Windjammer



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## WishLivePak

Can dual seat be operated by one pilot, just in case? Like what if missle dude dies, can flying dude attack? And if flying dude dies, can gunner still fly?

Did Pakistan ever get compensated by usa for the embargo where its purcchased f16 werent shipped and paf had to pay storage costs?


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## Windjammer

WishLivePak said:


> Can dual seat be operated by one pilot, just in case? Like what if missle dude dies, can flying dude attack? And if flying dude dies, can gunner still fly?
> 
> Did Pakistan ever get compensated by usa for the embargo where its purcchased f16 werent shipped and paf had to pay storage costs?


The dual seater normally can serve as a trainer or a ''wild weasel'' role, the ''D'' version of the aircraft is probably the most capable system in the subcontinent.

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## nomi007

*Unrest in Iraq Could Delay Delivery of US F-16s*
*GOOD CHANCE FOR PAF TO REQUEST USA FOR 6-12 JETS*


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## WishLivePak

nomi007 said:


> *Unrest in Iraq Could Delay Delivery of US F-16s*
> *GOOD CHANCE FOR PAF TO REQUEST USA FOR 6-12 JETS*


Why they buy more? 10 jets not going to make difference! We need money for PIA (each f16 can buy one or two a320, creating revenue for gov't), education or research into further advancing jst. Stop relying on us

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## Windjammer

WishLivePak said:


> Why they buy more? 10 jets not going to make difference! We need money for PIA (each f16 can buy one or two a320, creating revenue for gov't), education or research into further advancing jst. Stop relying on us


That's true but a certain scum of the society is desperate to destroy such institutions we already have in place. Any additions to our air assets will further help in eliminating these elements.
It's also worth noting that while other countries who spend billions and just showcase for the pleasure of their warlords or public, Pakistan OTOH had purposely used her air assets for their purpose,


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## WishLivePak

Windjammer said:


> That's true but a certain scum of the society is desperate to destroy such institutions we already have in place. Any additions to our air assets will further help in eliminating these elements.
> It's also worth noting that while other countries who spend billions and just showcase for the pleasure of their warlords or public, Pakistan OTOH had purposely used her air assets for their purpose,


But we're fighting taliban, even the j7 old crafts are good enough? Lastly, we need helicopters more and drones for these guys than jets. We can have like 50 helicopters instead of 10 f16s


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## Imran Khan

WishLivePak said:


> Why they buy more? 10 jets not going to make difference! We need money for PIA (each f16 can buy one or two a320, creating revenue for gov't), education or research into further advancing jst. Stop relying on us


F16 unit cost 38mn$ each
A320 unit cost 95-93mn$ each

How its posible?
Just sale white corupt elephant is best way to generate (save)revinue wich is being wasted yearly on pia railway.

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## WishLivePak

Imran Khan said:


> F16 unit cost 38mn$ each
> A320 unit cost 95-93mn$ each
> 
> How its posible?
> Just sale white corupt elephant is best way to generate (save)revinue wich is being wasted yearly on pia railway.


Bulk discount. Also the f16, are they used? I think that pricing is from 90s-2000s and it costs much much more.. jst costs 25-30m man. And the new f15se gonna cost 100m. 

Also they can rent a320 instead.. like for 40m (if your figures are correct), they can rent a plane for 11 years... 2 for 5.5 years... or 11 planes for one year, which will all net profit.

The problem is with PIA, it can't generate revenue... And managment is dumb. If you don't have money, why go with milan, barcelona etc routes, comcemtrate of heavy profit making routes. They bought 5 777, when they could've bought 15 a320 on cash. Start with improving domestic network than move to international. Use code sharing until then.


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## Windjammer

*Why enemy pilots don't sleep. !!*

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## nomi007

this image is of polish air force base 
*paf also need to develop such hangers for whole fleet*

*US official: Iraqi pilots not qualified to fly F-16*


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## DrWatson775

nomi007 said:


> this image is of polish air force base
> *paf also need to develop such hangers for whole fleet*
> 
> *US official: Iraqi pilots not qualified to fly F-16*



This is not a "hardened shelter" or "bunker" . We have and should have hardened bunkers rather than something like this.


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## TOPGUN

DrWatson775 said:


> This is not a "hardened shelter" or "bunker" . We have and should have hardened bunkers rather than something like this.



We have hardened shelters I believe !!


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## nomi007

TOPGUN said:


> We have hardened shelters I believe !!


yes that's why terrorist destroyed saabs and orions


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## Kompromat

Windjammer said:


> *Why enemy pilots don't sleep. !!*



We want more of this swag


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## Side-Winder

nomi007 said:


> yes that's why terrorist destroyed saabs and orions



They were hit by direct RPG fire... what is the hanger supposed to do here?


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## shaheenmissile

nomi007 said:


> yes that's why terrorist destroyed saabs and orions


Even with destroyed saab..we are fully covered and have more than enough air surveillance capability.
India being many times larger in area only has 3 AEW&C.. Pakistan with much smaller air space to watch,has 4 Karakoram eagle+3 remaining SAAB..Total of 7.
that's still more than double of what india has,
so no need to lose your sleep on this.

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## Kompromat

shaheenmissile said:


> Even with destroyed saab..we are fully covered and have more than enough air surveillance capability.
> India being many times larger in area only has 3 AEW&C.. Pakistan with much smaller air space to watch,has 4 Karakoram eagle+3 remaining SAAB..Total of 7.
> that's still more than double of what india has,
> so no need to lose your sleep on this.



There is no evidence of any saab destroyed.


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## nomi007

Aeronaut said:


> There is no evidence of any saab destroyed.


ex defence minister already acknowledge it



Side-Winder said:


> They were hit by direct RPG fire... what is the hanger supposed to do here?


its means station them in open area


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## Windjammer

Aeronaut said:


> We want more of this swag

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## elitepilot09

Windjammer said:


>



This is known around the world as *teasing*.


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## Windjammer

elitepilot09 said:


> This is known around the world as *teasing*.



Do you have any doubts.


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## elitepilot09

Windjammer said:


> Do you have any doubts.



Maybe 

Perhaps those aren't Pakistani Vipers to begin with   We won't know until you show us!!


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## Windjammer

elitepilot09 said:


> Maybe
> 
> Perhaps those aren't Pakistani Vipers to begin with   We won't know until you show us!!


What do you think about this one then, surroundings look familiar but.... oops no insignia.

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## elitepilot09

Windjammer said:


> What do you think about this one then, surroundings look familiar but.... oops no insignia.



Hahaha! Wonderful! Never really realized that Jacobabad has such a prevalent residential community on its doorstep.


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## Windjammer

elitepilot09 said:


> Hahaha! Wonderful! Never really realized that Jacobabad has such a prevalent residential community on its doorstep.


Say hello to dear uncle Google.

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## HRK

Windjammer said:


> What do you think about this one then, surroundings look familiar but.... oops no insignia.



y no insignia .... ??

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## Side-Winder

nomi007 said:


> its means station them in open area



Hangers are supposed to cover aircrafts from enemy intruders/bombers along with other purposes like maintenance, covering from weather etc


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## TOPGUN

nomi007 said:


> yes that's why terrorist destroyed saabs and orions



Fighter aircraft is what I meant your saabs and orions where sitting on the tarmac simply


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## nomi007

Stunning F-16 Fighting Falcons Lineup during the celebrating 100th anniversary of #Turkish airforce at Izmir in 2010.

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## nomi007

nomi007 said:


> Stunning F-16 Fighting Falcons Lineup during the celebrating 100th anniversary of #Turkish airforce at Izmir in 2010.


*First tail is of JF-17 thunder*

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## Danish saleem

Any Pic of PAF F-16 with BVR Missiles?

Danish


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## razgriz19

Danish saleem said:


> Any Pic of PAF F-16 with BVR Missiles?
> 
> Danish



If you just scroll above on this same page, you will see the upgraded F-16s carrying AMRAAM


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## volatile

Is this thunder


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## fatman17

volatile said:


> View attachment 38010
> 
> 
> Is this thunder


 
yes.....


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## volatile

Ahaan nice


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## HRK

PoAF F-16BM #15120 still in primer is coming in for landing with brakes opened after being converted to MLU standards at Monte Real AB on November 22nd, 2012. Airfighters.com photo by Helder Afonso]

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## elitepilot09

HRK said:


> View attachment 38066
> 
> PoAF F-16BM #15120 still in primer is coming in for landing with brakes opened after being converted to MLU standards at Monte Real AB on November 22nd, 2012. Airfighters.com photo by Helder Afonso]



I don't see what this has to do with Pakistan?

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## Edevelop



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## Windjammer

*PAF F-16s in Scramble and patrol during an exercise.*

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## nomi007



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## fatman17

*Viper Driver Flying Hours*
* Sqn.Ldr. Usman "Sparrow-1" Niazi *

*Viper Driver*




Name *Sqn.Ldr. Usman "Sparrow-1" Niazi *
Country Pakistan
Unit *11th squadron "Arrows" *
Flying F-16s 
Viper Hours *1000*
*F-16 Flying Hours*
1,000 Hours #2386 on the 1K list
Unit * 39th Wing * [Unit History]
Date *10 April 2014*
Comment
*Flying Hours on other aircraft*


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## nomi007

"Rolling with flares"

Griffins F-16 MLU releasing stream of flares as the completes aileron roll maneuver. Flare is part of self protection counter measure system used to counter any infrared homing ("heat seeking") SAM or Air-Air misile.

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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


> "Rolling with flares"
> 
> Griffins F-16 MLU releasing stream of flares as the completes aileron roll maneuver. Flare is part of self protection counter measure system used to counter any infrared homing ("heat seeking") SAM or Air-Air misile.


ye to missiles ko pagal bana de ga bhai lollzzz


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## Informant

@Windjammer Sir ji whats the confidential chatter these days that i cannot get an ear of? 

Please spare us some crumbs 



Imran Khan said:


> ye to missiles ko pagal bana de ga bhai lollzzz



Aisa waisa? Paghal kardega 73 aur 77 ko


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## Donatello

Informant said:


> @Windjammer Sir ji whats the confidential chatter these days that i cannot get an ear of?
> 
> Please spare us some crumbs
> 
> 
> 
> Aisa waisa? Paghal kardega 73 aur 77 ko



If you mean the R-77, then not really, that's active radar guided, so flares won't help much. More like chaff/jamming would do.


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## Informant

Donatello said:


> If you mean the R-77, then not really, that's active radar guided, so flares won't help much. More like chaff/jamming would do.


 
Aah thanks, i had it wrong. I thought 77 was also a IR tracker.


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## RAMPAGE

Informant said:


> Aah thanks, i had it wrong. I thought 77 was also a IR tracker.


IR seekers are used in short range missiles.

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## fatman17

*Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare** Suite (AIDEWS)* is an integrated radar warning receiver and radio frequency (RF) jammer that provides electronic countermeasures against modern airborne and ground-based RF threats. AIDEWS is offered in an internally installed (V)4 configuration, as well as in an external, hard-point fitted (V)9 pod. The air forces of Oman, Chile and Poland all fly the combat capable (V)4, while Pakistan and Turkey have both the (V)4 and the (V)9 for their new and legacy F-16s.

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## Junaid Khosa

nomi007 said:


> "Rolling with flares"
> 
> Griffins F-16 MLU releasing stream of flares as the completes aileron roll maneuver. Flare is part of self protection counter measure system used to counter any infrared homing ("heat seeking") SAM or Air-Air misile.


This is a lovely picture 

Nice Thread

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## fatman17

Quote of the Day
The mother of a young man who had just earned a commision and his pilots wings said to him, _Now you remember son, don't take any chances, you fly low and slow!_ -- Unknown

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## nomi007



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## Armstrong

@fatman17 @HRK @Secur @Oscar @Dazzler @Aeronaut @Windjammer @Donatello - Have you guys checked this out ?

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## Windjammer

Armstrong said:


> @fatman17 @HRK @Secur @Oscar @Dazzler @Aeronaut @Windjammer @Donatello - Have you guys checked this out ?


At last you get to see the full F-16 display finishing of with the vertical roll and now you know where was this picture taken.

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## HRK

Armstrong said:


> Have you guys checked this out ?



nice share ....

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## nomi007



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## fatman17

Armstrong said:


> @fatman17 @HRK @Secur @Oscar @Dazzler @Aeronaut @Windjammer @Donatello - Have you guys checked this out ?


 
can you make this into a sticky. great video esp the history.

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## Armstrong

fatman17 said:


> can you make this into a sticky. great video esp the history.



I'm afraid I wouldn't know how to !


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## Junaid Khosa

A beautiful picture of PAF F-16 pilot in cockpit after opened canopy



Which squadron is it but this is also a beautiful picture of PAF F16's





PAF F-16 From Arrows squadron 
Picture credit: Marcin R. Karch

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## razgriz19

Junaid Khosa said:


> A beautiful picture of PAF F-16 pilot in cockpit after opened canopy
> View attachment 39926
> Which squadron is it but this is also a beautiful picture of PAF F16's
> View attachment 39927
> 
> 
> PAF F-16 From Arrows squadron
> Picture credit: Marcin R. Karch
> View attachment 39928



ridiculously old pictures of "Griffins" during Red Flag, and an F-16 from "arrows" performing at Izmir air Show

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## dexter

Old picture of Pakistani F-16s at PAC (Pakistan Aeronautical Complex).

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## Windjammer

*THE BLUE BLAZER.*

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## dexter

Advance friend and foe system on Pakistani F-16C Block-52+ jet, highlight in red box.

These sensors are used to identify the Friend and enemy fighter jets during air combat.

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## Basel

I have a question, that is in 80s F-16XL lost to F-15s but after that no one look into it as it may have become more powerful plane due to its design, that might have accommodated more stuff (avionics & weapons) with longer range, and could have evolved into Silent 16.

was it possible for PAF to order their version of F-16 based on XL?? to me it look very promising design which LM could evolve to Silent 16 nearly 5th gen configuration with out internal weapons bay.

F-16 Versions - F-16 XL

Will love to see opinion on it specially from senior members like @Aeronaut @gambit @Chogy @Windjammer @Munir


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## fatman17

Basel said:


> I have a question, that is in 80s F-16XL lost to F-15s but after that no one look into it as it may have become more powerful plane due to its design, that might have accommodated more stuff (avionics & weapons) with longer range, and could have evolved into Silent 16.
> 
> was it possible for PAF to order their version of F-16 based on XL?? to me it look very promising design which LM could evolve to Silent 16 nearly 5th gen configuration with out internal weapons bay.
> 
> F-16 Versions - F-16 XL
> 
> Will love to see opinion on it specially from senior members like @Aeronaut @gambit @Chogy @Windjammer @Munir


 
the cost would be prohibative.....


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## Basel

fatman17 said:


> the cost would be prohibative.....



True but one time investment could have allowed us to handle all threats until 5th gen arrived in South Asia, and if we have developed Silent 16 type of version then PAF would have been ruling the skies in South Asia with advance tech available to further develop JF-17s.


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## dexter

*Paf F-16s bombing on TTP's hideouts during SWAT operation.*





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=275466269324872

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## elitepilot09

dexter said:


> *Paf F-16s bombing on TTP's hideouts during SWAT operation.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=275466269324872



Many of those engagements are recognizable as operations conducted by the USAF in Afghanistan. Obviously the F-7 strafing runs are PAF though.


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## Windjammer

elitepilot09 said:


> Many of those engagements are recognizable as operations conducted by the USAF in Afghanistan. Obviously the F-7 strafing runs are PAF though.


The HUD imagery is from PAF's strikes however rest of the footage is from a firepower demo.


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## elitepilot09

Windjammer said:


> The HUD imagery is from PAF's strikes however rest of the footage is from a firepower demo.



It appears that you are correct. Pardon me folks.


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## umair86

Most of these strikes were conducted by Mirages this footage is of DART targeting FLIR F-16s at that time were only equipped by ATLAS pod which have only daylight and clear weather capability and F-16 Blk 52+ were not fully operational at that time with with Snipers.


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## fatman17



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## airmarshal

Donatello said:


> Hmm, i hope all six are D versions for wild weasel roles. Also what about acquiring more from Jordan and the 14 pending from USA? They should be enough to boost f-16 squadron strength to 6 squadrons!



You dont need a D version for Wild Weasel role. F-16Cs are fully capable to do it if adapted with HARMs.


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## elitepilot09

airmarshal said:


> You dont need a D version for Wild Weasel role. F-16Cs are fully capable to do it if adapted with HARMs.



That is true, you simply need the HTS pod and the AGM-88 (or any other compatible missile). I mentioned this once before but I would really love to see HARMs in the PAF arsenal.. it is a game changer and definitely a very successful, tested weapon. 

It is unfortunate that they can prove to be quite costly and the US doesn't give them up easily. I wonder if the MAR-1's are compatible with our F-16s, or whether the US would allow it....

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## rockstar08

guys what is that ??
@Munir @Manticore @araz@dexter

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## Jungibaaz

rockstar08 said:


> View attachment 41785
> 
> guys what is that ??
> @Munir @Manticore @araz@dexter



Speed brakes.

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## rockstar08

Jungibaaz said:


> Speed brakes.



thanks


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## Donatello

rockstar08 said:


> View attachment 41785
> 
> guys what is that ??
> @Munir @Manticore @araz@dexter



That's called elegance.


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## Windjammer

rockstar08 said:


> View attachment 41785
> 
> guys what is that ??
> @Munir @Manticore @araz@dexter


They are called airbrakes, all jet aircraft have them on different locations.
The likes of F-15, Typhoon or SU-30 have a massive airbrake on the spine.

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## Munir

Windjammer has explained it perfect. Brakes are wheelbrakes... These flaps to use airflow to stop kinetic energy are AIRbrakes. And indeed different position which has lots of impact on flight characterisitics, system, usage etc... The Gripen can use flaps as airbrakes during landing (not inflight!) because they are placed well behind nose gear (so the pressure goes to the middle of the plane and not flipping the aircraft or destroying nose gear. If you look at the EF2000 then you see that it will flip... Putting the brakes in front means lots of turbulent airflow so you need to strengthening rudder a lot more... And there is lots of impact when you look at the size. One big like Flanker, F15 or EF2000? 4 like Mirage (above and under wing), 4 like JF17 (above and under belly) or three (f6?).... There is a huge variety and lots of impact. Only if you think of rcs then there are lots of variables when it comes to airbrakes. Not just simple a stiff panel that flips out! 

Looking at JF17 style... Being effective and cheap was the motto. So 4 small (less pressure needed to extend or retract) placed around the main body (less impact if used during flight) and at the end (less effect of turbulence caused by airbrakes).. Besides that very low impact on rcs and one can control very neatly the braking power then with one big door (A la flanker).But the F16 style is a little better. Yet more complex. It blends the brakes perfect into the body. But terrible impact on rearward RCS.


Besides airbrakes and wheelbrakes one has another form...The Tornado has thrust reversing system. It makes the aircraft dirty (  ). and there is no option of chute...

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## Manticore

air break over ventral fin

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## airmarshal

elitepilot09 said:


> That is true, you simply need the HTS pod and the AGM-88 (or any other compatible missile). I mentioned this once before but I would really love to see HARMs in the PAF arsenal.. it is a game changer and definitely a very successful, tested weapon.
> 
> It is unfortunate that they can prove to be quite costly and the US doesn't give them up easily. I wonder if the MAR-1's are compatible with our F-16s, or whether the US would allow it....



Turkey has HARM capable F-16Cs. All block 50 and onward F-16s can carry them provided they have HTS pod. I think not all CCIP F-16s can carry them. 

CCIP F-16s preceded the block 50 version when older F-16s were brought to Common Configuration with F-16 block 50 and 52 standards. 

Correct me if I m wrong, I think the F-16 MLU can carry HARMs.


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## Donatello

airmarshal said:


> Turkey has HARM capable F-16Cs. All block 50 and onward F-16s can carry them provided they have HTS pod. I think not all CCIP F-16s can carry them.
> 
> CCIP F-16s preceded the block 50 version when older F-16s were brought to Common Configuration with F-16 block 50 and 52 standards.
> 
> Correct me if I m wrong, I think the F-16 MLU can carry HARMs.



Yes they can, plus you use the HTS pod anyway for initial guidance. 

Turkey cannot be seen as an example, because they are member of NATO, and as such can buy what ever they want.


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## airmarshal

Donatello said:


> Yes they can, plus you use the HTS pod anyway for initial guidance.
> 
> Turkey cannot be seen as an example, because they are member of NATO, and as such can buy what ever they want.



If thats the case, Turkey being a NATO member, I dont see Pakistan getting HARMs. I dont think US has exported them to any non-NATO country.


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## gambit

The speedbrake, or airbrake, is a member of the flight control devices, or structures, family. The thing about the speedbrake is that it can be removed, but it cannot be installed.

What I mean is that if an existing design have a speedbrake and we decide not to use it anymore, we can disable or even literally remove speedbrake from each aircraft. But we cannot arbitrarily install the speedbrake on any existing design just because we think that design is needed. The speedbrake is, or rather should be, designed from paper, as in when the aircraft is in concept.

The speedbrake's job is to produce drag, but not at the expense of aerodynamic disruption to other flight control members that may be downstream from its position or overall affect aircraft's controllability and stability, meaning once deployed, the pilot must still be able to execute maneuvers, albeit within the flight conditions that necessitate the deployment of the speedbrake in the first place, such as landing.

The worst thing a speedbrake can do is to produce pitch attitude change upon deployment. Does not matter if it is pitch up or down. If, even under simulation, a deployed speedbrake is found to induce any pitch attitude changes, especially if it eventually evolves into aircraft oscillation, then the speedbrake's intended location is a poor choice. Not just location but its design parameters, such as area size, speed and angle of deployment, are now suspect. So when landing require the speedbrake and it induces pitch attitude changes on deployment, there is going to be a disaster. Most likely a non-recoverable one.

This is why we can remove the speedbrake but not install it.

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## Donatello

airmarshal said:


> If thats the case, Turkey being a NATO member, I dont see Pakistan getting HARMs. I dont think US has exported them to any non-NATO country.



Sold them to their illegitimate child: Israel.

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## airmarshal

gambit said:


> The speedbrake, or airbrake, is a member of the flight control devices, or structures, family. The thing about the speedbrake is that it can be removed, but it cannot be installed.
> 
> What I mean is that if an existing design have a speedbrake and we decide not to use it anymore, we can disable or even literally remove speedbrake from each aircraft. But we cannot arbitrarily install the speedbrake on any existing design just because we think that design is needed. The speedbrake is, or rather should be, designed from paper, as in when the aircraft is in concept.
> 
> The speedbrake's job is to produce drag, but not at the expense of aerodynamic disruption to other flight control members that may be downstream from its position or overall affect aircraft's controllability and stability, meaning once deployed, the pilot must still be able to execute maneuvers, albeit within the flight conditions that necessitate the deployment of the speedbrake in the first place, such as landing.
> 
> The worst thing a speedbrake can do is to produce pitch attitude change upon deployment. Does not matter if it is pitch up or down. If, even under simulation, a deployed speedbrake is found to induce any pitch attitude changes, especially if it eventually evolves into aircraft oscillation, then the speedbrake's intended location is a poor choice. Not just location but its design parameters, such as area size, speed and angle of deployment, are now suspect. So when landing require the speedbrake and it induces pitch attitude changes on deployment, there is going to be a disaster. Most likely a non-recoverable one.
> 
> This is why we can remove the speedbrake but not install it.



Never ever thought speed brake could involve so much technology and parameters.


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## gambit

airmarshal said:


> Never ever thought speed brake could involve so much technology and parameters.


Yes, they do...Here is an example...

http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/arc/rm/2614.pdf


> Reports and Memoranda No. 2614* June, 1942
> 
> For dive bombers, the drag should reduce the terminal velocity sufficiently to enable the aeroplane to be pulled out of the dive at a reasonably low height. It is clearly impossible to specify this requirement exactly, but it is probable that a terminal velocity of about between 300 and 350 m.p.h. in a 50-deg. dive should be aimed at. The terminal velocity of the Ju.88, for example, is about 350 m.p.h. (50-deg. dive, weight 26,200 lb). Fig. 2a shows very roughly the size of the flaps needed to fulfil these conditions on a typical modern aeroplane.
> 
> For torpedo aircraft, the air brakes must enable the aeroplane to lose speed as rapidly as possible in level flight after a dive from, say, 6,000 ft. It has been suggested that the speed possible in level flight after a dive from, say, 6,000 ft. It has been suggested that the speed should drop to 150 knots within about 9 secs after flattening out.
> 
> Finally, it is essential that any form of wing or tail buffeting, or any vibration of ailerons or other control surfaces, must be avoided.


Note the date of the report.

These WW II aircrafts used speedbrakes for purposes other than for landing. A dive bomber had a different attack profile than a torpedo bomber but both needed speedbrakes to foremost stabilize those flight profiles. This is because the torpedo is, in a manner of speaking, more 'delicate' than a bomb. The torpedo must be delivered in a certain manner to increase its odds of survival of impact into the water, the initial drop cannot have the torpedo below a certain depth, the pilot needed a stable aircraft to aim the torpedo, etc. The last sentence indicate what was true then is true today, that speedbrake deployment should not affect other flight control surfaces under flight profiles that uses the speedbrakes.

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## SQ8

gambit said:


> Yes, they do...Here is an example...
> 
> http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/arc/rm/2614.pdf
> 
> Note the date of the report.
> 
> These WW II aircrafts used speedbrakes for purposes other than for landing. A dive bomber had a different attack profile than a torpedo bomber but both needed speedbrakes to foremost stabilize those flight profiles. This is because the torpedo is, in a manner of speaking, more 'delicate' than a bomb. The torpedo must be delivered in a certain manner to increase its odds of survival of impact into the water, the initial drop cannot have the torpedo below a certain depth, the pilot needed a stable aircraft to aim the torpedo, etc. The last sentence indicate what was true then is true today, that speedbrake deployment should not affect other flight control surfaces under flight profiles that uses the speedbrakes.



A nice mention of how LO aircraft have different methods of airbraking would not go amiss. Both the Raptor and the lightening I believe use their rudders in full deflection to achieve airflow disruption.


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## gambit

Oscar said:


> A nice mention of how LO aircraft have different methods of airbraking would not go amiss. Both the Raptor and the lightening I believe use their rudders in full deflection to achieve airflow disruption.


Any fighter with twin vertical stabs can do the same. Basically, the stabs deflects in equal degree but opposite directions.






The vertical stabilator is not the rudder. It contains the rudder, or some engineers would call it 'rudder panel' or 'rudder structure'. For the example above, the F-22's rudders are splayed -- outboard -- in equal degree. You can see the signs of deflections at the bottom of the rudders.

This is a software based speedbrake design where the flight control surfaces themselves acts in concert to produce the effects of a standalone speedbrake structure, like that huge thing behind the cockpit on the F-15. Software based speedbrake design must not use full deflection because we want to allow the particular flight control surface some freedom to execute maneuvers.

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## airmarshal

gambit said:


> Yes, they do...Here is an example...
> 
> http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/arc/rm/2614.pdf
> 
> Note the date of the report.
> 
> These WW II aircrafts used speedbrakes for purposes other than for landing. A dive bomber had a different attack profile than a torpedo bomber but both needed speedbrakes to foremost stabilize those flight profiles. This is because the torpedo is, in a manner of speaking, more 'delicate' than a bomb. The torpedo must be delivered in a certain manner to increase its odds of survival of impact into the water, the initial drop cannot have the torpedo below a certain depth, the pilot needed a stable aircraft to aim the torpedo, etc. The last sentence indicate what was true then is true today, that speedbrake deployment should not affect other flight control surfaces under flight profiles that uses the speedbrakes.



Superb explanation @gambit. Mention of dive bomber always reminds me of Luftwaffe Ju-87 Stuka. A truly inspiring plane and a predecessor to A-10 as tank buster. But this is a topic for some other thread


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## fatman17

airmarshal said:


> Turkey has HARM capable F-16Cs. All block 50 and onward F-16s can carry them provided they have HTS pod. I think not all CCIP F-16s can carry them.
> 
> CCIP F-16s preceded the block 50 version when older F-16s were brought to Common Configuration with F-16 block 50 and 52 standards.
> 
> Correct me if I m wrong, I think the F-16 MLU can carry HARMs.


 
Block 40 and above can.


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## Munir

fatman17 said:


> Block 40 and above can.



It can when the option is asked, allowed, activated and the weapons are asked, allowed, sold and DELIVERED. So, yes you can is as realistic as the promise of CHANGE and YES WE CAN of Obama. Pretty much zero if you are not the chosen one.

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## HRK

F16 Auto-GCAS Crash Test: 'Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System'



Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


Jut want to know do we have this system installed in our F-16s (MILU or Blk50/52) ..... ???

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## Jango

HRK said:


> Jut want to know do we have this system installed in our F-16s (MILU or Blk50/52) ..... ???



It is under testing by the USAF...so no it isn't operational, not only within PAF, but worldwide I believe.

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## DANGER-ZONE

Difference b/w F-16 HAVing GLASS and not HAVing GLASS 







For those who don't what HAVE GLASS is The Aviationist » U.S. F-16s tasked to destroy enemy radars, missile batteries to get the same radar-absorbing paint job of the F-35

P.S. Its such a silly name.

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## nomi007

*Shahbaz Falcons – Part 2/2*
*Pictures from PAF’s No.5 MR Sqn from Shahbaz Air Base, Jacobabad.
1.



*
F-16D passing by scare crow planted for flight safety reasons on Shahbaz runway. A part from such conventional scare crows PAF has also employed sharp shooter men (equipped with rifles) to keep birds away from the air field.




2.F-16D Block52 powered by F100-PW-229 turbofan engine capable of producing of 29,100 lb (129.4 kN) thrust on full augmentation.





3.A No.5 Sqn pilot goes over his checklist prior to takeoff with F-16D block 52. F-16 Block52s are force multiplier platform for PAF and are equipped with array of air-air and air-ground munitions.




*4.*A F-16 pilot gestures ‘Thumbs Up’ to ground crew as he prepares for take off. The pilot is wearing Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System( JHMCS)*.*
*






*
*5.**Falcons formation preparing for takeoff from Shahbaz Air Base.






*
6.F-16 Block 52 head on shot, showing Advance Identification of Friend or Foe (AIFF) antennas mounted on the upper forward fuselage in front of the canopy.

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## mian.inzamam

sir how can i be a pilot?


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## shaheenmissile

Scary thing is you can see civilian population right across the boundery wall and any goon can take a shot at such an important and expensive plane from rooftop

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## fatman17

shaheenmissile said:


> Scary thing is you can see civilian population right across the boundery wall and any goon can take a shot at such an important and expensive plane from rooftop


 
these houses have been vacated....

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## Chak Bamu

shaheenmissile said:


> Scary thing is you can see civilian population right across the boundery wall and any goon can take a shot at such an important and expensive plane from rooftop



Please do not shoot from the hip. Think a bit. This is not the only post that has been made without considering much at all.

Also, take a look at your flags and see if they are correct.


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## Armchair

American 65th aggressor squadron flying F-16s are being deactivated next month. Time for PAF to que to the US embassy. sorry folks, it seems those are F-15s, not F-16s.


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## shaheenmissile

Chak Bamu said:


> Please do not shoot from the hip. Think a bit. This is not the only post that has been made without considering much at all.
> 
> Also, take a look at your flags and see if they are correct.


Leave it bro. I don't come here for people to have grudge and enmity against me for expressing my opinion.
Since that has started to happen,i rather leave this website. But things shouldn't be this complicated over here. You guys should really take it easy.
On topic. I don't think i have shot from my hips. In this picture civilian population looks right next to bounder wall

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## Jango

shaheenmissile said:


> Scary thing is you can see civilian population right across the boundery wall and any goon can take a shot at such an important and expensive plane from rooftop



I haven't been to Jacobabad, but have been to Dhamial, and that place is just smack in the middle of civilian population. So are a couple of other bases.

But there are regular intel checks on the surrounding places and they do have a rough idea about who is living there.


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## nomi007

PAF F-16 From griffins squadron equipped with AN/ALQ-131 Self Protection Jammer Pod under the belly (highlighted with red arrows)

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## elitepilot09

Armchair said:


> American 65th aggressor squadron flying F-16s are being deactivated next month. Time for PAF to que to the US embassy. sorry folks, it seems those are F-15s, not F-16s.



65 AGRS does not fly the 16.


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## fatman17

by giving NOC for ex-jordan vipers, the US has fulfilled its committment to supply F-16s to PAF. the only option left is for the PAF to somehow convince the US to commit on the 'option' of 18 F-16C/Ds.


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## DANGER-ZONE

Print designed by Dutch artist *Peter Van Stigt.




*

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## fatman17

Quote of the Day
Use not only all the brains you have, but all you can borrow. In other words, don't ignore your copilot! -- Unknown

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## nomi007

PAF F-16 Fighting Falcons Roaring over Islamabad with full afterburners 
over islamabad




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=604060373045112


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## Basel

Why PAF did not go for LOAN? it would have increased F-16 capabilities to avoid IR missile and to some extent its rear RCSs.

F-16 Versions - F-16 LOAN
.
Difference Between The AVEN & LOAN nozzles? - F-16 Design & Construction

Also it would have increased PAF's knowledge when they want to have 5th gen from China as LOAN is important for those.


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## nomi007

PAF F-16 Block 52+ rehearsal flypast over Blue Area, Islamabad - August 12, 2014

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## Stealth



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## fatman17

Stealth said:


>



lets hope so.....

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## VelocuR

shaheenmissile said:


> Scary thing is you can see civilian population right across the boundery wall and any goon can take a shot at such an important and expensive plane from rooftop



Is there single shot at F-16s near civilian population last 30 years?? PAF authorities doesn't know anything?


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## syedali73

VelocuR said:


> Is there single shot at F-16s near civilian population last 30 years?? PAF authorities doesn't know anything?





Chak Bamu said:


> Please do not shoot from the hip. Think a bit. This is not the only post that has been made without considering much at all.





Fulcrum15 said:


> I haven't been to Jacobabad, but have been to Dhamial, and that place is just smack in the middle of civilian population. So are a couple of other bases.
> 
> But there are regular intel checks on the surrounding places and they do have a rough idea about who is living there.


Possible sabotage is only one of the several hazards associated with the airport/airbase situated in the close vicinity of urban areas. Other hazards are as follows:

*1. *Birds such as pigeons, crows and kites that normally feed on the leftover food thrown by the people are a serious hazard to the planes.

*2.* In the event of war, the airports/airbases/airstrips are targeted by the adversary. Chances of collateral damage increase significantly if large civilian population is present in the vicinity.

*3.* In an event of emergency during takeoff or landing, planes can crash into nearby houses resulting in greater damage and loss of life. Therefore constructions are not allowed in areas called Runway Protection Zone/Clear Zone (RPZ/CZ), and Accident Potential Zone (APZ). For instance US DOD does not allow constructions within 15,000 feet (4.572 km) of a military airport.

*4.* People living near airports are subjected to apparently invisible but constant health risks due to engine noise, fuel/oil droplets, and toxic substances suspended in and around the air of the airport/airbase. Few reference are given below:

1. Aircraft noise and cardiovascular disease near Heathrow airport in London: small area study. (Aircraft noise and cardiovascular disease near Heathrow ... [BMJ. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI
2. Health risk for population residing near airports. ([Health risk for population residing near a... [Med Tr Prom Ekol. 2008] - PubMed - NCBI
3. Residential exposure to aircraft noise and hospital admissions for cardiovascular diseases: multi-airport retrospective study. (Residential exposure to aircraft noise and hospital admi... [BMJ. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI
4. Between-airport heterogeneity in air toxics emissions associated with individual cancer risk thresholds and population risks. (Between-airport heterogeneity in air toxics emissions associated with individual cancer risk thresholds and population risks

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## nomi007



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## fatman17

at least 2 F-16s lost due to bird-strike and a wild boar strike.


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## Shadow_Hunter

fatman17 said:


> at least 2 F-16s lost due to bird-strike and a wild boar strike.


I am not trolling here, but, was the boar flying?


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## fatman17

Shadow_Hunter said:


> I am not trolling here, but, was the boar flying?



almost.....ran across the runway


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## Shadow_Hunter

fatman17 said:


> almost.....ran across the runway


And a landing F16 was lost to it? seems strange.


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## nangyale

Shadow_Hunter said:


> And a landing F16 was lost to it? seems strange.


What's your point? Why does it sound so strange to you?


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## Shadow_Hunter

nangyale said:


> What's your point? Why does it sound so strange to you?


Because a landing F16 will be much less prone to damage. Obviously.


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## nangyale

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Because a landing F16 will be much less prone to damage. Obviously.


Still, what's your point. 
we can only discuss once we have your full theory.


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## Windjammer

Shadow_Hunter said:


> I am not trolling here, but, was the boar flying?



No there's just something called ...Flying Coffin.....thanks to the IAF.



Shadow_Hunter said:


> And a landing F16 was lost to it? seems strange.


And where did you read that it was landing. !!


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## Shadow_Hunter

Windjammer said:


> No there's just something called ...Flying Coffin.....thanks to the IAF.


No, you are just incapable of understanding the context.


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## monitor

Do Pakistan's F-16 equipped with ALE-50 towed decoy if not any planed for it ?


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## SQ8

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Because a landing F16 will be much less prone to damage. Obviously.



How may ask is it obvious?


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## MilSpec

Windjammer said:


> No there's just something called ...Flying Coffin.....thanks to the IAF.


Do you know which other aircraft's were dubbed the flying coffin?


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## SQ8

sandy_3126 said:


> Do you know which other aircraft's were dubbed the flying coffin?



The F-104. Really bad experience by the Luftwaffe. Still, its off topic. As a general rule, American equipment has been really safe, with safety systems for safety systems.


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## Shadow_Hunter

Oscar said:


> How may ask is it obvious?


Low speed, motion in 2d on the runway, normal reaction from the runway to balance any sudden impact on the plane. No impact of gravity as in the air.


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## SQ8

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Low speed, motion in 2d on the runway, normal reaction from the runway to balance any sudden impact on the plane. No impact of gravity as in the air.



How do you know it was low speed? 140 kts is 140 kts on the runway... taking off or slowing down.

As for the incident, please read up on all PAF F-16 losses here, god knows where you came up with the landing idea.
F-16 Accidents & Mishaps for the Pakistan Air Force


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## Shadow_Hunter

Oscar said:


> How do you know it was low speed? 140 kts is 140 kts on the runway... taking off or slowing down.


I meant compared to speed in the air.


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## SQ8

Shadow_Hunter said:


> I meant compared to speed in the air.


Have you forgetten something known as momentum? The aircraft will have a component of force that hit the boar. 
Please read on the incident here. 
F-16 Accidents & Mishaps for the Pakistan Air Force


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## Shadow_Hunter

Oscar said:


> Have you forgetten something known as momentum? The aircraft will have a component of force that hit the boar.
> Please read on the incident here.
> F-16 Accidents & Mishaps for the Pakistan Air Force


Momentum will be directly proportional to speed. Plus this is not a normal physics collision since the boar is not a rigid body. It would have probably been thrown away by the impact. So, the reverse impact on the plane's body should actually be quite lesser as compared to what it would have been had the plane hit a really rigid object.

Anyways I read you link and found only one line on the incident.


> The aircraft took off from Sargodha AB and hit a wild boar causing the two pilots to eject.


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## SQ8

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Momentum will be directly proportional to speed. Plus this is not a normal physics collision since the boar is not a rigid body. It would have probably been thrown away by the impact. So, the reverse impact on the plane's body should actually be quite lesser as compared to what it would have been had the plane hit a really rigid object.
> 
> Anyways I read you link and found only one line on the incident.



Have you read about the physics of bird strikes? The normally non rigid body of the bird becomes a shell. Please read about the effects of bird strikes and then return on the thread to comment further. 
The aircraft hit the boar on takeoff while at full burner, which sheared the gear off and slammed the jet onto the runway. The pilots ejected right there and then.


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## Shadow_Hunter

Oscar said:


> Have you read about the physics of bird strikes? The normally non rigid body of the bird becomes a shell. Please read about the effects of bird strikes and then return on the thread to comment further.
> The aircraft hit the boar on takeoff while at full burner, which sheared the gear off and slammed the jet onto the runway. The pilots ejected right there and then.


I know about bird strikes. The basic reason behind damage due to bird strikes is large impulse that bird's body gives to the plane, damaging the structure. This impulse is directly proportional to speed of plane, which in this case would be lesser than that in air. Anyways no comments from my side on this topic


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## MastanKhan

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Momentum will be directly proportional to speed. Plus this is not a normal physics collision since the boar is not a rigid body. It would have probably been thrown away by the impact. So, the reverse impact on the plane's body should actually be quite lesser as compared to what it would have been had the plane hit a really rigid object.
> 
> Anyways I read you link and found only one line on the incident.



Sir,

For many a years I lived close to Hill AFB---once awhile an F16 would crash into the lake---the reporters would be asking----why can't you find the plane----it just went into water---the answer would be---at speeds of 200---300 +++ knots---hitting water is like hitting a brick wall----the plane would be shattered into small pieces.

The aircraft weighing at 40000 lbs travelling at 140 knots / hr would generate a force ---if it hits a dead object head on would generate a force of 5.6 million ft/lbs ( am I right )----the dead weight of the object is around 200 lbs---the results are catastrophic.

But the question is---what do you want to prove---.

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## Shadow_Hunter

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> For many a years I lived close to Hill AFB---once awhile an F16 would crash into the lake---the reporters would be asking----why can't you find the plane----it just went into water---the answer would be---at speeds of 200---300 +++ knots---hitting water is like hitting a brick wall----the plane would be shattered into small pieces.
> 
> The aircraft weighing at 40000 lbs travelling at 140 knots / hr would generate a force ---if it hits a dead object head on would generate a force of 5.6 million ft/lbs ( am I right )----the dead weight of the object is around 200 lbs---the results are catastrophic.
> 
> But the question is---what do you want to prove---.


The problem is everywhere here is busy assuming that I am out to prove something.


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## MastanKhan

Shadow_Hunter said:


> The problem is everywhere here is busy assuming that I am out to prove something.




so, then what is at issue.

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## Shadow_Hunter

MastanKhan said:


> so, then what is at issue.


I asked a simple question. Anyways I have already closed this conversation from my side. I expect no more replies from u


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## Donatello

Shadow_Hunter said:


> I asked a simple question. Anyways I have already closed this conversation from my side. I expect no more replies from u



You asked a question and when presented with factual answers, you went on a completely different tangent. Either don't ask or engage in proper logical discussion.

Just from my side, Combat aircraft are extremely fragile machines, infact most airplanes are. They are not 50 tons of moving metal like Tanks. An animal the size of a wild boar can cause a lot of damage at high speed, 140knots is a good 250kmph. 

Have a look here at how much damage a wild boar can cause a car travelling at just 100kmph....

Photo Gallery: Crash Tests on Wild Boars - SPIEGEL ONLINE - International

So a wild boar will pretty much smash the nose gear and cause underside damage to a F-16.

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## gambit

> MastanKhan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
> For many a years I lived close to Hill AFB---once awhile an F16 would crash into the lake---the reporters would be asking----why can't you find the plane----it just went into water---the answer would be---at speeds of 200---300 +++ knots---hitting water is like hitting a brick wall----the plane would be shattered into small pieces.
> 
> The aircraft weighing at 40000 lbs travelling at 140 knots / hr would generate a force ---if it hits a dead object head on would generate a force of 5.6 million ft/lbs ( am I right )----the dead weight of the object is around 200 lbs---the results are catastrophic.
> 
> But the question is---what do you want to prove---.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Donatello said:
> 
> 
> 
> You asked a question and when presented with factual answers, you went on a completely different tangent. Either don't ask or engage in proper logical discussion.
> 
> *Just from my side, Combat aircraft are extremely fragile machines, infact most airplanes are.* They are not 50 tons of moving metal like Tanks. An animal the size of a wild boar can cause a lot of damage at high speed, 140knots is a good 250kmph.
> 
> Have a look here at how much damage a wild boar can cause a car travelling at just 100kmph....
> 
> Photo Gallery: Crash Tests on Wild Boars - SPIEGEL ONLINE - International
> 
> So a wild boar will pretty much smash the nose gear and cause underside damage to a F-16.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Very good, gents.

I always use this example whenever I had to explain the differences between aerodynamic forces versus physical forces: Which is more damaging, standing against a 20 km/h wind, or being hit by a car moving at 20 km/h ? I stumped every trainee.

It is not that they do not know the answer, it is that the question made them to rethink about the forces that acts upon a body, whether it is the human body or an aircraft body. An aircraft *IS* a very physically fragile body in terms of forces that it is designed to encounter and manage. A brick do not flow around an obstacle the way a gust of wind will and precisely because a gust of wind will deflect, conform to the obstacle, and create differential pressures that we designed a body to exploit this behavior and eventually flying machines.

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## MilSpec

Oscar said:


> The F-104. Really bad experience by the Luftwaffe. Still, its off topic. As a general rule, American equipment has been really safe, with safety systems for safety systems.



So was B26 Marauder, B24 Liberator, BA349 Natter,


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## shaheenmissile

Bird strikes damage planes in two ways. The most obvious is hamage to plane's body. Depending on where the bird hits the plane,the plane may survive the strike or may fall out of the sky due to death of piliot as there has been incidents where piliots have been decapitated.The other form of damage is when then engine sucks up the bird and gets damaged.

No wonder Pakistan's latest second hand F-16 from Jordan have bird cutters fitted in front of canopy


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## fatman17

PAF has another anti-bird strike weapon which is activated during take-off and landings. a man with a shotgun drives around the landing strip shooing off the birds with his shotgun. cheap, innovative.

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## syedali73

shaheenmissile said:


> Bird strikes damage planes in two ways. The most obvious is hamage to plane's body. Depending on where the bird hits the plane,the plane may survive the strike or may fall out of the sky due to death of piliot as there has been incidents where piliots have been decapitated.The other form of damage is when then engine sucks up the bird and gets damaged.
> 
> *No wonder Pakistan's latest second hand F-16 from Jordan have bird cutters fitted in front of canopy*


What? Those IFF antennas are for preventing the pilot form the bird strike?


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## SQ8

syedali73 said:


> What? Those IFF antennas are for preventing the pilot form the bird strike?



NO, they are called bird slicers due to their "looks". Other than that they have NOTHING to do with preventing bird strikes.

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## Windjammer

syedali73 said:


> What? Those IFF antennas are for preventing the pilot form the bird strike?


A bird strike shattering the canopy is not as fatal as one getting sucked into the engine.
As for an aircraft hitting an object on runway, remember, how a strip of metal lying on the runway brought down the Concorde.

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> A bird strike shattering the canopy is not as fatal as one getting sucked into the engine.
> As for an aircraft hitting an object on runway, remember, how a strip of metal lying on the runway brought down the Concorde.



That depends on the type of Canopy. Generally, the one piece canopies of the F-16 and F-22 have been More resistant to Bird strikes due to them being thicker polycarbonate which is needed to maintain the one piece shape.

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## syedali73

@Oscar @Windjammer Thanks for the clarification. Actually I was addressing @shaheenmissile for he somehow got confused about the function of the IFF antenna, which as you have mentioned correctly, has nothing to do with '_slicing off the birds_'.


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## shaheenmissile

Oscar said:


> NO, they are called bird slicers due to their "looks". Other than that they have NOTHING to do with preventing bird strikes.


But this type of IFF first appeared only on ADF version which was meant to fly very low and highly likely to get struck by the birds.


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## nomi007

Pakistani F-16B Block-15 (MLU) jet equipped with Atlis-II Pod under the intake section (Hightlighted with red arrow)

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## Donatello

nomi007 said:


> Pakistani F-16B Block-15 (MLU) jet equipped with Atlis-II Pod under the intake section (Hightlighted with red arrow)




This is not MLU, as no IFF antennas can be seen on the nose.

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## fatman17

*Today in F-16 history
20 Aug 1982 *
PAF accepts first F-16 from Peace Gate I order.

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## nomi007

PAF F-16C/D Block-52+ jets armed with JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munition) bombs

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> *Today in F-16 history
> 20 Aug 1982 *
> PAF accepts first F-16 from Peace Gate I order.



Damn, it's already been 32 years!!

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Damn, it's already been 32 years!!


 
how time flies when you are having a good time....


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## PK_Patriot

South korea is upgrading its136 F-16 block 52 with costing 1.1 billion dollars including AESA Source: Raytheon Radar Wins S. Korea Fighter Upgrade | Defense News | defensenews.com
Pakistan has 76 F-16s majority MLU upgraded or block 52. I think it won't cost more than 500 million dollars to be equivalent to block 60. It would take PAf to have 4.5 / 4.75 generation fighters. Share your thoughts


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## Sankpal

Naah.... my thoughts very clear.. try to get new aircraft. 

Old aircraft can be upgraded but how long?

Go with chinese aircraft 

Indian mirage 2000 also being upgrade but it can use only max 10-15 years..

Go with new... than use 30-35 years


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Yes good suggestion but we are getting more F16 C/D level soon

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## syedali73

Sankpal said:


> Naah.... my thoughts very clear.. try to get new aircraft.
> 
> Old aircraft can be upgraded but how long?
> 
> Go with chinese aircraft
> 
> Indian mirage 2000 also being upgrade but it can use only max 10-15 years..
> 
> Go with new... than use 30-35 years


Yes, you are right but certain military hardwares (such as fighter jets) are too expensive to be purchased even after every 20-25 years. It is therefore best to get them upgraded both to keep them relevant to the threat and as stop-gap, while at the same time inducted newer systems. That is exactly what all the militraries across the world do.


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## S-A-B-E-R->

No money ....USA not willing....So its a no go on AESA from USA at least.


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## kaykay

Let's be realistic here. USA is not gonna approve AESA radars for PAF even if they manage to save funds for that. Upgrade JF17 with AESA in long run should be the priority for PAF.


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## Sankpal

syedali73 said:


> Yes, you are right but certain military hardwares (such as fighter jets) are too expensive to be purchased even after every 20-25 years. It is therefore best to get them upgraded both to keep them relevant to the threat and as stop-gap, while at the same time inducted newer systems. That is exactly what all the militraries across the world do.



Yes totaly agreed but if i m not wrong, f- 16 c/d manuf. In mid 1980 n almost 30 years old.....

Now, long can be use?

So try to get new aircrafts n fly cost n maintainence should be less conpare to old one... by the way, its depends on money but i think u can get from china with soft loan


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## nomi007

nomi007 said:


> PAF F-16C/D Block-52+ jets armed with JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munition) bombs


@Oscar @Windjammer is this picture which i share is photoshop edit or real?
are we are using jdam kindly clear it?


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## syedali73

nomi007 said:


> @Oscar @Windjammer is this picture which i share is photoshop edit or real?
> are we are using jdam kindly clear it?


Looks like we do.















According to US Selected Acquisition Report (SAR), some 500 JDAM kits were sold to Pakistan on 9/30/2006. Please see page 25 of the report here: http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/logisti...Dec_2012/Air_Force/JDAM_December_2012_SAR.pdf

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## nomi007

syedali73 said:


> Looks like we do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> According to US Selected Acquisition Report (SAR), some 500 JDAM kits were sold to Pakistan on 9/30/2006. Please see page 25 of the report here: http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/logisti...Dec_2012/Air_Force/JDAM_December_2012_SAR.pdf


thanks for clarification
its means wat lag gehe dusman ki


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## Windjammer

nomi007 said:


> @Oscar @Windjammer is this picture which i share is photoshop edit or real?
> are we are using jdam kindly clear it?


Yup, JDAMs and a whole lot others.

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## Viny

F16 airframe has lifetime of around 8000hrs. If you go through SLEP program it would increase life upto 12000hrs thats 4000 hrs more and if you avg 300hrs per year then also it gives atleast 12-15years of additional life in addition to what remains.
This could act as backbone, but would need to upgrade to next generation also to be able to compete with neighbours.


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## Informant

Windjammer said:


> Yup, JDAMs and a whole lot others.



This pic is made for nightmares

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## Pinnacle

guys what is the basic difference in the roles of JDAM and a laser guided bomb? i mean both are guided munitions ! so what advantage these two offer over eachother?


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## Windjammer

danish falcon said:


> guys what is the basic difference in the roles of JDAM and a laser guided bomb? i mean both are guided munitions ! so what advantage these two offer over eachother?


JDAM-equipped bombs are guided by an integrated inertial guidance system coupled to a Global Positioning System (GPS) , while LGBs ride a beam illuminated by mother ship or another platform.....JDAM is much more sophisticated as LGB munition can be effected by cloudy sky or thick smoke over the target area.

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## shanis

S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> No money ....USA not willing....So its a no go on AESA from USA at least.


Yes you are right ... if we will pay to US for upgrade our F-16 with AESA system ... US will not do ...



Viny said:


> F16 airframe has lifetime of around 8000hrs. If you go through SLEP program it would increase life upto 12000hrs thats 4000 hrs more and if you avg 300hrs per year then also it gives atleast 12-15years of additional life in addition to what remains.
> This could act as backbone, but would need to upgrade to next generation also to be able to compete with neighbours.


yes F-16 is a best aircraft ever in the world ... but now we have to go with new aircraft ... yes with time we can try to upgrade F-16 with AESA, but right now we have to hard work with JF-17 with upgrade all next generation parts, have to buy 4.5 generation aircraft like j-10 b with New upgrade jF-17 block 1 2 3 then in 3rd option have to upgrade F-16 with AESA ... but US will not do that ...

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## fatman17

Viny said:


> F16 airframe has lifetime of around 8000hrs. If you go through SLEP program it would increase life upto 12000hrs thats 4000 hrs more and if you avg 300hrs per year then also it gives atleast 12-15years of additional life in addition to what remains.
> This could act as backbone, but would need to upgrade to next generation also to be able to compete with neighbours.


 
PAF avg. is 200-220 hrs/year.



AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Yes good suggestion but we are getting more F16 C/D level soon


 
true congressional approvals are available for 18 F-16C/Ds.

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## syedali73

Windjammer said:


> JDAM-equipped bombs are guided by an integrated inertial guidance system coupled to a Global Positioning System (GPS) , while LGBs ride a beam illuminated by mother ship or another platform.....JDAM is much more sophisticated as LGB munition can be effected by cloudy sky or thick smoke over the target area.


We should not be surprised if PAF is employing this state-of-the-art JDAM munition for precision attacks on the hideouts of TTP rats. As you have mentioned, the use of inertial guidance coupled with GPS renders these munitions independent of beam riding and usable regardless the weather conditions. Neither the cover of the night nor the thick clouds would protect these rats from the wrath of the PAF.


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## Viny

shanis said:


> yes F-16 is a best aircraft ever in the world .


Over exaggeration, none the less its a very fine aircraft and have been over its age in 1998-2000. Some life dose are given as American partners are still using it and will be using it near future and which brings more money to there establishment without much of additional cost.



shanis said:


> .. but now we have to go with new aircraft


Agree and the open timespan is only till India does doll drums with is purchase process.


shanis said:


> .
> ... yes with time we can try to upgrade F-16 with AESA,


Seriously doubt AESA happening anytime soon.



shanis said:


> .
> but right now we have to hard work with JF-17 with upgrade all next generation parts, have to buy 4.5 generation aircraft like j-10 b with New upgrade jF-17 block 1 2 3 then in 3rd option have to upgrade F-16 with AESA ... but US will not do that ...



Best of luck for same.


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> PAF avg. is 200-220 hrs/year.
> 
> 
> 
> true congressional approvals are available for 18 F-16C/Ds.



I think we should cash in on that approval while it is there.

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## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> JDAM-equipped bombs are guided by an integrated inertial guidance system coupled to a Global Positioning System (GPS) , while LGBs ride a beam illuminated by mother ship or another platform.....JDAM is much more sophisticated as LGB munition can be effected by cloudy sky or thick smoke over the target area.



Two years ago there was a report that PAF has used up quite a few LGBs and JDAMs in strikes against terrorists. Are there any plans for replenishment, or an in house solution is available, since the similar kits are being made in house for the JF-17s, no?


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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Two years ago there was a report that PAF has used up quite a few LGBs and JDAMs in strikes against terrorists. Are there any plans for replenishment, or an in house solution is available, since the similar kits are being made in house for the JF-17s, no?



The PAF sticks to LGB's generally. JDAMs are used only in bad weather support. As such, the GBU-10 and 12 kits keep coming in.

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## nomi007



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## Windjammer

@Oscar ....is this in same category as JDAM, except it's being produced by GIDS in Pakistan. ??

Pakistani GIDS TAKBIR Series Satellite Aided Inertially Guided Glide Bomb Family for precision attack against ground attack role.

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## rockstar08

fatman17 said:


> PAF avg. is 200-220 hrs/year.
> 
> 
> 
> true congressional approvals are available for 18 F-16C/Ds.



any talks going on behind the doors ?


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> @Oscar ....is this in same category as JDAM, except it's being produced by GIDS in Pakistan. ??
> 
> Pakistani GIDS TAKBIR Series Satellite Aided Inertially Guided Glide Bomb Family for precision attack against ground attack role.


It is, just not as "reliable" and readily integrated.


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## PK_Patriot

Sankpal said:


> Naah.... my thoughts very clear.. try to get new aircraft.
> 
> Old aircraft can be upgraded but how long?
> 
> Go with chinese aircraft
> 
> Indian mirage 2000 also being upgrade but it can use only max 10-15 years..
> 
> Go with new... than use 30-35 years


In presence of SU-30MKI & upcoming PAK FA, do you think instead upgrading them Rafael has been bought along with TOT, a wise decision ?



shanis said:


> Yes you are right ... if we will pay to US for upgrade our F-16 with AESA system ... US will not do ...
> 
> 
> yes F-16 is a best aircraft ever in the world ... but now we have to go with new aircraft ... yes with time we can try to upgrade F-16 with AESA, but right now we have to hard work with JF-17 with upgrade all next generation parts, have to buy 4.5 generation aircraft like j-10 b with New upgrade jF-17 block 1 2 3 then in 3rd option have to upgrade F-16 with AESA ... but US will not do that ...


If you are going for aid or soft loan then I doubt it, it is not going to be happening till 2020



S-A-B-E-R-> said:


> No money ....USA not willing....So its a no go on AESA from USA at least.


If 1.2 billion dollars can be allocated for metro then AESA can also happen with funds. Infact 1.2 billion dollar is enough for entire 4G aircraft PAkistan has including JF-17 thunder. Contact Saab or northropgrumman


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## syedali73

Oscar said:


> It is, just not as "reliable" and readily integrated.


I understand they are GPS based. Are there plans to use Beidou Navigation Satellite System?


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## fatman17

*Lockheed: F-16V Passes Radar Integration Milestone*
*
Aug. 21, 2014 - 12:59PM | By AARON MEHTA | *






*Lockheed Martin's F-16V passed a major milestone this week. (Neal Chapman/Lockheed Martin)*

*WASHINGTON* — Lockheed Martin has moved forward with a major milestone on its F-16V upgrade, the company announced this week.
The company completed a Critical Design Review to ensure Northrop Grumman’s Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) design has met requirements handed down by the US Air Force. The improved radar capabilities brought by SABR are at the core of the F-16V modification.
“Completing this milestone on schedule demonstrates our ability to meet program commitments,” Roderick McLean, vice president and general manager of the F-16/F-22 Integrated Fighter Group at Lockheed Martin, said in a company statement. “It proves once again why customers turn to Lockheed Martin to upgrade their F-16 fleets and advance the mission capability of the world’s most effective 4th generation multi-role fighter.”
Taiwan is slated to be the first customer to receive the F-16V upgrade. In addition to SABR, the upgrade enhances the electronic warfare suite, mission computer and cockpit.
While Lockheed and US officials insist radar upgrades for Taiwan’s F-16 fleet are still on track, officials in Taiwan have expressed concerns over a US Air Force decision to back out of a major avionics update known as CAPES.
Northrop was selected by Lockheed over competitor Raytheon to provide the radar upgrade in a hotly contested battle. The upgrade market for F-16s, operated by 25 countries, is expected to remain a fertile growth area for companies at a time when new jet production is coming down.
The F-16V will be the most advanced model of the F-16, at a time when the legacy models are showing wear and tear. The US Air Force has ordered all F-16B and D models be checked for damage after a series of cracks grounded over half its F-16D fleet.■
*Email: amehta@defensenews.com.*



syedali73 said:


> I understand they are GPS based. Are there plans to use Beidou Navigation Satellite System?


 
yes soon i believe....

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## shanis

PK_Patriot said:


> In presence of SU-30MKI & upcoming PAK FA, do you think instead upgrading them Rafael has been bought along with TOT, a wise decision ?
> 
> 
> If you are going for aid or soft loan then I doubt it, it is not going to be happening till 2020
> 
> 
> If 1.2 billion dollars can be allocated for metro then AESA can also happen with funds. Infact 1.2 billion dollar is enough for entire 4G aircraft PAkistan has including JF-17 thunder. Contact Saab or northropgrumman



yes you are right ... that's the point ...... who will think about Upgrade our defense in army, air force, navy etc .... PML N will not do upgrade or new things.
what will we do with Metro ... PML N has to go for upgrade defense and will go for New things now...


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## Umar Jasim

Pakistan Must Focus on Its JF-17 block 2...PAF Know its requirements better then us


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## Sankpal

PK_Patriot said:


> In presence of SU-30MKI & upcoming PAK FA, do you think instead upgrading them Rafael has been bought along with TOT, a wise decision ?
> 
> Su 30 mki...... coming from after 2000. So it will be atleast 2030-2035 till we can upgrade whatever we want..
> 
> I was saying f 16 is a gud plane but now how long it will use?
> 
> Well your choice .... mostly country already started phasing out n getting new aircrafts.


----------



## PK_Patriot

shanis said:


> yes you are right ... that's the point ...... who will think about Upgrade our defense in army, air force, navy etc .... PML N will not do upgrade or new things.
> what will we do with Metro ... PML N has to go for upgrade defense and will go for New things now...


Pakistan defence is always neglected and hyped by NGOs, media and politicians

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## Stealth

What about the update of Pakistan F16s ? any plan to acquire more or any further deal ? I feel that that was the last batch of F16s arrived the newer one BLK 52


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## kaykay

PK_Patriot said:


> In presence of SU-30MKI & upcoming PAK FA, do you think instead upgrading them Rafael has been bought along with TOT, a wise decision


Well there is a plan to upgrade mki to super sukhoi standard with new radars, uprated engines and reduced rcs etc. Rafale, Tejas are needed because we have a large fleet of old aircrafts to replace with them say around 300 of them.


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## Pakistanisage

Adding an Aesa Radar to F-16 is not that simple as adding a deck to your car.

Such Addition would require redesigning the nose section of F-16.

It is easier for PAF to make such modification to JF-17 , since we have all the rights for modifications on that Fighter Aircraft.


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## shanis

Pakistanisage said:


> Adding an Aesa Radar to F-16 is not that simple as adding a deck to your car.
> 
> Such Addition would require redesigning the nose section of F-16.
> 
> It is easier for PAF to make such modification to JF-17 , since we have all the rights for modifications on that Fighter Aircraft.



but i dont know when we will do modify Jf-17 ... in block 1 or 2 no AESA no important upgrades ... i was thinking we will use AESA in block 2 ... but no, 
how we are going for Block 2 ... i think will finish 50 aircrafts after 2017 or 18 ... and then block 3 turn will come and its will be too late ... 

when other country will go for 5th generation we will go for 4 and 4.5 generation,


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## Side-Winder

PK_Patriot said:


> South korea is upgrading its136 F-16 block 52 with costing 1.1 billion dollars including AESA Source: Raytheon Radar Wins S. Korea Fighter Upgrade | Defense News | defensenews.com
> Pakistan has 76 F-16s majority MLU upgraded or block 52. I think it won't cost more than 500 million dollars to be equivalent to block 60. It would take PAf to have 4.5 / 4.75 generation fighters. Share your thoughts



1.3 Billion already being invested to upgrade A/Bs to C/Ds.. no more money to take them to 60 standard


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## Umar Jasim

Why PAF Isn't using *AESA Radar* in Block 2 ? it means we will see AESA radar in block 3 in *2017* or *2018*. when others will go for *5*th generation.

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## shanis

Side-Winder said:


> 1.3 Billion already being invested to upgrade A/Bs to C/Ds.. no more money to take them to 60 standard


better now we will go upgrade block 2 to AESA engine ... because its new aircraft and will do service for Pakistan for Long long time IN SHA ALLAH ... but first we have to make JF thunder like 4.5 generation.


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## Basel

PAF done a mistake not going for AESA for new n MLUed F-16s. Although 68-V-9 is potent radar but not enough for PAF because F-16s r still front line fighter n they had to face a superior foe in terms of tech n numbers.

For those who think AESA upgrade is not easy or possible please google SABR or RACR.
.
Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) for the F-16
.
Raytheon Company: Raytheon's Advanced Combat Radar (RACR)

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## PK_Patriot

kaykay said:


> Well there is a plan to upgrade mki to super sukhoi standard with new radars, uprated engines and reduced rcs etc. Rafale, Tejas are needed because we have a large fleet of old aircrafts to replace with them say around 300 of them.


May be Tejas + sukhoi isn't working for India for China threat



Side-Winder said:


> 1.3 Billion already being invested to upgrade A/Bs to C/Ds.. no more money to take them to 60 standard


There is always money out of 30 billion dollars annual budget !



Pakistanisage said:


> Adding an Aesa Radar to F-16 is not that simple as adding a deck to your car.
> 
> Such Addition would require redesigning the nose section of F-16.
> 
> It is easier for PAF to make such modification to JF-17 , since we have all the rights for modifications on that Fighter Aircraft.


I think I have shared in start of the thread that how south korean are upgrading their F-16 thunder to AESA


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## SQ8

shanis said:


> yes you are right ... that's the point ...... who will think about Upgrade our defense in army, air force, navy etc .... PML N will not do upgrade or new things.
> what will we do with Metro ... PML N has to go for upgrade defense and will go for New things now...



You will reduce emissions to a certain extent and provide cheap transportation which is important for the economy. A better economy gets you cash to make these or better purchases later. Lets not be short sighted as we ALWAYS are.


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## Chak Bamu

fatman17 said:


> *Lockheed: F-16V Passes Radar Integration Milestone*
> *Aug. 21, 2014 - 12:59PM | By AARON MEHTA | *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Lockheed Martin's F-16V passed a major milestone this week. (Neal Chapman/Lockheed Martin)*
> 
> *WASHINGTON* — Lockheed Martin has moved forward with a major milestone on its F-16V upgrade, the company announced this week.
> The company completed a Critical Design Review to ensure Northrop Grumman’s Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) design has met requirements handed down by the US Air Force. The improved radar capabilities brought by SABR are at the core of the F-16V modification.
> “Completing this milestone on schedule demonstrates our ability to meet program commitments,” Roderick McLean, vice president and general manager of the F-16/F-22 Integrated Fighter Group at Lockheed Martin, said in a company statement. “It proves once again why customers turn to Lockheed Martin to upgrade their F-16 fleets and advance the mission capability of the world’s most effective 4th generation multi-role fighter.”
> Taiwan is slated to be the first customer to receive the F-16V upgrade. In addition to SABR, the upgrade enhances the electronic warfare suite, mission computer and cockpit.
> While Lockheed and US officials insist radar upgrades for Taiwan’s F-16 fleet are still on track, officials in Taiwan have expressed concerns over a US Air Force decision to back out of a major avionics update known as CAPES.
> Northrop was selected by Lockheed over competitor Raytheon to provide the radar upgrade in a hotly contested battle. The upgrade market for F-16s, operated by 25 countries, is expected to remain a fertile growth area for companies at a time when new jet production is coming down.
> The F-16V will be the most advanced model of the F-16, at a time when the legacy models are showing wear and tear. The US Air Force has ordered all F-16B and D models be checked for damage after a series of cracks grounded over half its F-16D fleet.■
> *Email: amehta@defensenews.com.*



I read this yesterday, and I thought about the prospect of our F-16s acquiring AESA radars (SABR or RACR). It seems to me that PAF would find it hard to finance this for the whole fleet. In case we go for 18 more F-16 Blk 52, we may get AESA radar upgrade for 36 Blk 52.


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## PK_Patriot

Oscar said:


> You will reduce emissions to a certain extent and provide cheap transportation which is important for the economy. A better economy gets you cash to make these or better purchases later. Lets not be short sighted as we ALWAYS are.


None of his projects are fueling economy


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## SQ8

PK_Patriot said:


> None of his projects are fueling economy


So AESA radars and F-16s will?


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## PK_Patriot

Oscar said:


> So AESA radars and F-16s will?


Not economy but defense ,,,,, metro 0 contribution to economy


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## SQ8

PK_Patriot said:


> Not economy but defense ,,,,, metro 0 contribution to economy



Without an economy, your defence is a hollow bag of air that will burst open at the slightest problem.

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## PK_Patriot

Oscar said:


> Without an economy, your defence is a hollow bag of air that will burst open at the slightest problem.


Agreed!


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## SQ8

OrionHunter said:


> Why spend on upgrading the F-16?
> 
> *China, Pak in MoU to develop stealth variant on JF-17 Thunder*
> 
> *China and Pakistan have reportedly signed a memorandum of understanding to develop a stealth version of a light-weight fighter aircraft being jointly produced by them.*
> 
> The journal said that Pakistan Air Force (PAK) is expected to acquire around 250 JF-17s, but this may be a split of 100 in the JF-17 configuration, being displayed at the air show here, and 150 of the stealth multi-role combat aircraft (MCRA) between 2015 and 2025.
> 
> China, Pak in MoU to develop stealth variant on JF-17 Thunder
> 
> So there you have it. A *cost effective* 5th gen stealth aircraft by 2015!



Come up with a better report than the Deccan Herald and keep your pithy sarcasm out of this thread. Banned.


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## PakEye

Oscar said:


> Without an economy, your defence is a hollow bag of air that will burst open at the slightest problem.





PK_Patriot said:


> Agreed!



The Economically strong countaries like
Saudi Arabia , Kuwait and Qatar 
are totally depend on USA and west for Defense 

defense and economy both are necessary for Pakistan.


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## shanis

Oscar said:


> Without an economy, your defence is a hollow bag of air that will burst open at the slightest problem.


agreed but my friend right now ... keep hand on your heart ... and ask a question how can you match with 4.5 generation aircraft's ... right now india has 200 su 30mki and going for 5th generation .... but where we are ... every country have AESA or latest defense and aircrafts but we are still going for Used F-16 ....



pakeye said:


> The Economically strong countaries like
> Saudi Arabia , Kuwait and Qatar
> are totally depend on USA and west for Defense
> 
> defense and economy both are necessary for Pakistan.



Economically when we will be strong i dont know ... when we are going to waste 1.2 billion on metro which is just useless and just few thousand people use Metro ......................... we can use 1.2 billion on our AESA system in JF..17 block 2 and in Block 3 we will use AESA with that time latest upgrade or better with AESA but ............... ?

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## PK_Patriot

pakeye said:


> The Economically strong countaries like
> Saudi Arabia , Kuwait and Qatar
> are totally depend on USA and west for Defense
> 
> defense and economy both are necessary for Pakistan.


They don't have population and land like Pakistan ..... Qatar has world's highest GDP per capita after Luxembourg ,,,, but both of them have no population ! They can't even keep an army of 10K



shanis said:


> agreed but my friend right now ... keep hand on your heart ... and ask a question how can you match with 4.5 generation aircraft's ... right now india has 200 su 30mki and going for 5th generation .... but where we are ... every country have AESA or latest defense and aircrafts but we are still going for Used F-16 ....
> 
> 
> 
> Economically when we will be strong i dont know ... when we are going to waste 1.2 billion on metro which is just useless and just few thousand people use Metro ......................... we can use 1.2 billion on our AESA system in JF..17 block 2 and in Block 3 we will use AESA with that time latest upgrade or better with AESA but ............... ?


Upgrade all F-16 to block 60 by introducing AESA radars along with all version of JF-17 thunder with AESA and smart BVRs


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## PakEye

PK_Patriot said:


> They don't have population and land like Pakistan ..... Qatar has world's highest GDP per capita after Luxembourg ,,,, but both of them have no population ! They can't even keep an army of 10K


what is the number of population of Israel ??
and 
What is the number of Israeli armed forces ??


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## Lil Mathew

PK_Patriot said:


> South korea is upgrading its136 F-16 block 52 with costing 1.1 billion dollars including AESA
> Pakistan has 76 F-16s majority MLU upgraded or block 52. I think it won't cost more than 500 million dollars to be equivalent to block 60. It would take PAf to have 4.5 / 4.75 generation fighters. Share your thoughts


This $1.1 billion figure is not correct..
The Korea upgrade is in two phases. Phase 1 is estimated to cost about $200 million for contractor technical, engineering and logistics support services for the initial design. Phase 2 will include the Raytheon radar and updated avionics. The total bill for South Korea could be as high as $2.4 billion if all of the options are exercised.
BAE Targets Lockheed in Asia's F-16 Upgrade Wars | Defense News | defensenews.com
A full potential upgrade ( like IAF's mirage upgrade) same like Singapore f16 upgrade costs more than 40 million /aircraft
USA outlines $2.4 billion Singapore F-16 upgrade - 1/15/2014 - Flight Global


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## fatman17

Stealth said:


> What about the update of Pakistan F16s ? any plan to acquire more or any further deal ? I feel that that was the last batch of F16s arrived the newer one BLK 52


 
we can excercise option on 18 F-16C/D's but it has to be with our own funds. congressional approval is available.



Chak Bamu said:


> I read this yesterday, and I thought about the prospect of our F-16s acquiring AESA radars (SABR or RACR). It seems to me that PAF would find it hard to finance this for the whole fleet. In case we go for 18 more F-16 Blk 52, we may get AESA radar upgrade for 36 Blk 52.


 
most un-likely.

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## fatman17

PAF is satisfied with the MLU program for its Block-15OCU. all 41 aircraft will be close in capability to the Block-52. now PAF has to decide what to do with the 13 ex-Jordan vipers.


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## PK_Patriot

Lil Mathew said:


> This $1.1 billion figure is not correct..
> The Korea upgrade is in two phases. Phase 1 is estimated to cost about $200 million for contractor technical, engineering and logistics support services for the initial design. Phase 2 will include the Raytheon radar and updated avionics. The total bill for South Korea could be as high as $2.4 billion if all of the options are exercised.
> BAE Targets Lockheed in Asia's F-16 Upgrade Wars | Defense News | defensenews.com
> A full potential upgrade ( like IAF's mirage upgrade) same like Singapore f16 upgrade costs more than 40 million /aircraft
> USA outlines $2.4 billion Singapore F-16 upgrade - 1/15/2014 - Flight Global


"could be as high" but as reported by reuters, F-16.net and reliable resources that F-16 upgrades are costing ~1 billion dollar BAE finalizes South Korean F-16 upgrade deal, eyes more prospects| Reuters
Taiwan also upgrading its fleet from lockhead martin in 1.8 billion dollars (south korea choosed BAE)
F-16V radar integration clears way for Taiwan upgrade - IHS Jane's 360


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## Stealth

fatman17 said:


> we can excercise option on 18 F-16C/D's but it has to be with our own funds. congressional approval is available.



Any chance Pakistan will go for "E" ?


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## Donatello

Stealth said:


> Any chance Pakistan will go for "E" ?



No, because it was exclusive to UAE and as such royalties might have to be paid, plus it costs more than the D version, which PAF is having hard time procuring in the first place.


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## Stealth

Donatello said:


> No, because it was exclusive to UAE and as such royalties might have to be paid, plus it costs more than the D version, which PAF is having hard time procuring in the first place.



Israel also have E version right? and what is the actual cost of single F16 bought by Pakistan *18 batch) without any other external hardware like POD etc.


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## Donatello

Stealth said:


> Israel also have E version right? and what is the actual cost of single F16 bought by Pakistan *18 batch) without any other external hardware like POD etc.



I think the original contract was 1.6-1.8billion USD for 18 new F-16s.

Israel doesn't have the E version, but rather the C/D BLK52 models, which include a lot of Israeli made systems for EW/ECM/IFF etc. I believe they are called F-16 Sufa.

The E/F versions were built only for UAE on their request, but in case of either the Israeli Sufa or UAE E/F (desert falcon) they are based on the BLK50/52 models to start with, for example the provision to carry CFTs and a raised dorsal spine to house those electronics.

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## Stealth

Donatello said:


> I think the original contract was 1.6-1.8billion USD for 18 new F-16s.
> 
> Israel doesn't have the E version, but rather the C/D BLK52 models, which include a lot of Israeli made systems for EW/ECM/IFF etc. I believe they are called F-16 Sufa.
> 
> The E/F versions were built only for UAE on their request, but in case of either the Israeli Sufa or UAE E/F (desert falcon) they are based on the BLK50/52 models to start with, for example the provision to carry CFTs and a raised dorsal spine to house those electronics.



Do you foresee a future of F16s in PAF or Pakistan will leave F16 and move on towards some other platform? (Hint: J31)


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## Donatello

Stealth said:


> Do you foresee a future of F16s in PAF or Pakistan will leave F16 and move on towards some other platform? (Hint: J31)



F-16s will linger on for 20 years. J-31 might start arriving in 8-10 years, depending on how many India procures, since a low RCS/Stealth aircraft will tip the balance a lot, and regardless of whatever, Pakistan will need to procure it to maintain some deterrence. 

Now given US is willing to work with Pakistan, and if Republicans come in power, then expect USA to be pro Pakistan, which means Pakistan can push for more f-16s. But i believe they could be the used ones from other sources like Jordan/Turkey/Egypt or NATO ones. So that's one way to bolster the fleet and upgrade them to MLU.

Keep in mind that MLU and BLK50 f-16s are among the most potent aircraft in the region, and as such can take on anything IAF has one on one. Secondly it may be good to exercise the option for the original 18 F-16s, since the approval is already there. But funds are the issue. Otherwise PAF would rather ditch JF-17 numbers and get F-16s. They love the fighting falcons.

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## razgriz19

Shadow_Hunter said:


> Momentum will be directly proportional to speed. Plus this is not a normal physics collision since the boar is not a rigid body. It would have probably been thrown away by the impact. So, the reverse impact on the plane's body should actually be quite lesser as compared to what it would have been had the plane hit a really rigid object.
> 
> Anyways I read you link and found only one line on the incident.



"Also in 2008, a Kingfisher Airlines aircraft hit a stray dog on the runway at the HAL Bangalore International Airport, resulting in the aircraft’s landing gear collapsing. The aircraft skidded off the runway and its nose collapsed; four passengers were injured. "

If an airliners landing gear can collapse from a dog, a boar is a much heavier animal and F-16 is much smaller airplane. Reults would be devastating as they were in that crash. 

Preventing Runway Incursions | Airports International | The Airport Industry online, the latest airport industry news

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## shanis

PK_Patriot said:


> They don't have population and land like Pakistan ..... Qatar has world's highest GDP per capita after Luxembourg ,,,, but both of them have no population ! They can't even keep an army of 10K
> 
> 
> Upgrade all F-16 to block 60 by introducing AESA radars along with all version of JF-17 thunder with AESA and smart BVRs




Who will upgrade all F-16 to block 60 with AESA ... impossible ... America will not do 
and In block 1 and 2 dont have AESA but let see after some year when other country going and will have 5th generation crafts ... we will go for AESA 4 and 4.5 crafts .... in 2015 we much have more then 200 aircrafts AESA system but now it will happend after 5 to 6 year later ....



fatman17 said:


> PAF is satisfied with the MLU program for its Block-15OCU. all 41 aircraft will be close in capability to the Block-52. now PAF has to decide what to do with the 13 ex-Jordan vipers.



Why PAF is satisfied with MLU block 15 program ......... i think we must upgrade our AESA to block 60 program AESA system ...


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## PK_Patriot

shanis said:


> Who will upgrade all F-16 to block 60 with AESA ... impossible ... America will not do
> and In block 1 and 2 dont have AESA but let see after some year when other country going and will have 5th generation crafts ... we will go for AESA 4 and 4.5 crafts .... in 2015 we much have more then 200 aircrafts AESA system but now it will happend after 5 to 6 year later ....
> 
> 
> 
> Why PAF is satisfied with MLU block 15 program ......... i think we must upgrade our AESA to block 60 program AESA system ...


I think you are not following the link from start, BAE a British/european comapny is updating F-16 for south korea, right now every company is downsizing BAE or lockhead martin will be more than happy to update for PAkistan. You have to make them do it "Menou note wikha mera mood banay" :p


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> PAF is satisfied with the MLU program for its Block-15OCU. all 41 aircraft will be close in capability to the Block-52. now PAF has to decide what to do with the 13 ex-Jordan vipers.



The Jordanian F-16s carry the APG 66 or 68?

Also, they are MLU-ed but not the full MLU, so they probably cannot fire AIM120.......or can they?


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## PK_Patriot

Donatello said:


> The Jordanian F-16s carry the APG 66 or 68?
> 
> Also, they are MLU-ed but not the full MLU, so they probably cannot fire AIM120.......or can they?


PAF has acquired these planes to use after upgrades ! Latest upgrades will make them equivalent to C/D Block in alot of perspectives


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## shanis

PK_Patriot said:


> I think you are not following the link from start, BAE a British/european comapny is updating F-16 for south korea, right now every company is downsizing BAE or lockhead martin will be more than happy to update for PAkistan. You have to make them do it "Menou note wikha mera mood banay" :p



dear i am following the link ... they are happy to update for Pakistan but 
who will wikahay ga note to BAE ... 
( if we will do this how can we waste 1.2 billion in metro project(with Metro project cement and steel is coming from PML N industries ) and how can we fill our pockets,accounts and how PML N will invest money to there abroad business ... )
PML N is thinking to taking money just like PPP did...... no body is honestly thinking for Pakistan ... PML N ... PPP ... PML q all these parties are and were bad time for Pakistan.


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## Viper0011.

Side-Winder said:


> 1.3 Billion already being invested to upgrade A/Bs to C/Ds.. no more money to take them to 60 standard



Actually, you shouldn't be taking them to Block 60, no need to. The airframes are getting old now. However, you should look into other nation's, including US ANG retiring its -16's Block 40's. Buy used ones with lesser miles on the airframe and then bring these up to Block 52 or 60. This would give the best bang for the buck and a much quicker upgrade schedule too. Block 40's are closer to Block 52 configuration also.

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## Aepsilons

PK_Patriot said:


> South korea is upgrading its136 F-16 block 52 with costing 1.1 billion dollars including AESA Source: Raytheon Radar Wins S. Korea Fighter Upgrade | Defense News | defensenews.com
> Pakistan has 76 F-16s majority MLU upgraded or block 52. I think it won't cost more than 500 million dollars to be equivalent to block 60. It would take PAf to have 4.5 / 4.75 generation fighters. Share your thoughts



A wise choice for the Pakistani Air Force! The Block 52s will serve you guys nobly.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Pakistan stands 20 years behind most developed nations lets put it this way

JF17 thunder has to reach maturity of Block 3 
And we need a second Air-Air focused platform with TOT 

To bridge the gap with rest of world to 10 years or so

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## Windjammer

Albeit i did get an e-mail reply from LM, who were more inquisitive about my credentials rather than giving an answer to my query, however i still haven't been able to find out, why do the CFTs support or require so many access panels.
@gambit, sir your input would be highly appreciated.


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## MastanKhan

Windjammer said:


> Albeit i did get an e-mail reply from LM, who were more inquisitive about my credentials rather than giving an answer to my query, however i still haven't been able to find out, why do the CFTs support or require so many access panels.
> @gambit, sir your input would be highly appreciated.



Hi,

Welcome---you are now on the watch list of F B !--- N S @ ---- and few others----.


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## VCheng

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Welcome---you are now on the watch list of F B !--- N S @ ---- and few others----.



Only now? Nope.


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## shanis

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Pakistan stands 20 years behind most developed nations lets put it this way
> 
> JF17 thunder has to reach maturity of Block 3
> And we need a second Air-Air focused platform with TOT
> 
> To bridge the gap with rest of world to 10 years or so



agreed ... 101 % agreed 
Pakistan stands 20 year behind ..... 
all latest air forces using AESA system but in our near future no chance for AESA system in Pakistan.

Pakistan must must reach and shown maturity of Block 3 with all possible upgrade with AESA and must make Block 3, 4.50 or 4.75 generation crafts......


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## fatman17

*




Shooting Down the First Soviet Aircraft*

a. Pilot: Squadron Leader Athar Bokhari
b. Controller: Squadron Leader Taufeeq Raja
c. Date: August 4, 1988
d. Aircraft Shot: Su-25
e. Area: 10 NM West of Miranshah (Boya)

In those days, in addition to the scrambles that had then become routine, two or three pairs of F-16s would fly CAPs in the west on a regular basis. On this day, a scramble was ordered half an hour before sunset. As the No. 2 of the detailed formation was not yet fully night current, the leader decided to go alone. On the initial vector, he was at full throttle. As the violating aircraft had turned back, he was asked near Hangu to fly at normal speed and to set up a race course CAP pattern north of Bannu at 10,000 feet. The next fifty minutes were uneventful as he kept flying at 120/300 degrees. By this time, it was dark. Then came the opportunity for a kill, so narrated by the pilot:

I was vectored on a heading of 300 degrees, and the controller reported the target 30 degree left, 15 NM. I turned left and called contact. The GCI controller clearly told me to go ahead and shoot the target. I achieved a head-on IR lock on one aircraft at 7 NM flying high. He started to turn right at 6.5 NM, putting me on at 3.5 NM. I engaged burners and closed to less than 2.5 NM from the target before the desired launch zone (DLZ) started to flash. As all the parameters were met, I fired the missile and saw it go towards the target in the TD box on the HUD. I next saw a ball of fire in the TD box. I broke left to 120 degrees, descended to 5,000 feet, and dispensed chaff and flares. On looking back at the 8 o'clock position, I saw 4-5 flares at about 3-4 NM and mistook them initially for missiles. It all about stopped my heartbeat but my controller reassured me that there were no other aircraft in the vicinity. I then took a safe passage home.

The wreckage of the shot down aircraft was located, but not the pilot. The tribal people caught him the next evening and handed him over to the authorities. His name was Colonel Alexander Rutskoi who later became the Vice President of the Russian Federation. Both the pilots and the controller displayed calm professional competence in shooting down the first Soviet-piloted Su-25 aircraft at night. It was an excellent example of pilot-controller teamwork.

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## PK_Patriot

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> turity of Block 3
> And we need a second Air-Air focused platform with TOT





shanis said:


> agreed ... 101 % agreed
> Pakistan stands 20 year behind .....
> all latest air forces using AESA system but in our near future no chance for AESA system in Pakistan.
> 
> Pakistan must must reach and shown maturity of Block 3 with all possible upgrade with AESA and must make Block 3, 4.50 or 4.75 generation crafts......


Second air ti air flatform with TOT should be J-31 or any 5th generation killer


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## C130

eeeeh, why would PAF F-16s need AESA? 
I don't see the need now or the next decade.
AESA is for the boys who are going to need it.


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## PK_Patriot

C130 said:


> eeeeh, why would PAF F-16s need AESA?
> I don't see the need now or the next decade.
> AESA is for the boys who are going to need it.


Radar jamming is difficult, range benefits, stealth benefits ?


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## C130

PK_Patriot said:


> Radar jamming is difficult, range benefits, stealth benefits ?


that good and all, but doesn't PAF wanna focus on A2G?
F-16 even with AESA is no match for Indian SU-30MKI especially when they become Super Flankers.

and I don't think U.S would ever sign off for a U.S made AESA for Pakistan F-16 because of China


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## danger007

PK_Patriot said:


> South korea is upgrading its136 F-16 block 52 with costing 1.1 billion dollars including AESA Source: Raytheon Radar Wins S. Korea Fighter Upgrade | Defense News | defensenews.com
> Pakistan has 76 F-16s majority MLU upgraded or block 52. I think it won't cost more than 500 million dollars to be equivalent to block 60. It would take PAf to have 4.5 / 4.75 generation fighters. Share your thoughts


what is 4.75 gen ... it might become 4++ gen ..


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## danger007

PK_Patriot said:


> Not economy but defense ,,,,, metro 0 contribution to economy


better transportation network ... reduce traffic problems ... With this type of attitude pakistan remains same even after 100 years.. India spending trillion $$ to improve infrastructure. .. defence should be a priority but it shouldn't be everything ... India building metros in every city which crosses 10 lac population. ..

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## nomi007

is Pakistan
also have dual racket like this


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## PK_Patriot

C130 said:


> that good and all, but doesn't PAF wanna focus on A2G?
> F-16 even with AESA is no match for Indian SU-30MKI especially when they become Super Flankers.
> 
> and I don't think U.S would ever sign off for a U.S made AESA for Pakistan F-16 because of China


then Pakistan should go for BAE upgrades, super sukhoi are no doubt lethal but there will be always a hole to focus on


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## PK_Patriot

danger007 said:


> what is 4.75 gen ... it might become 4++ gen ..


I think 4.75 G fighters are F-15 SE, F-16I / Block 60, Super horenet, SU-35, Super Sukhoi, Euro fighters, Rafael, J-15 and SU-33 only



C130 said:


> that good and all, but doesn't PAF wanna focus on A2G?
> F-16 even with AESA is no match for Indian SU-30MKI especially when they become Super Flankers.
> 
> and I don't think U.S would ever sign off for a U.S made AESA for Pakistan F-16 because of China


What are comparable aircrafts in west and china to counter super sukhoi in your eyes ?


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## gambit

Windjammer said:


> Albeit i did get an e-mail reply from LM, who were more inquisitive about my credentials rather than giving an answer to my query, however i still haven't been able to find out, why do the CFTs support or require so many access panels.
> @gambit, sir your input would be highly appreciated.


Am going to guess you mean the many access panels on the tank itself ?

*First*...The concept of the conformal fuel tank is not new but more like going back to WW II. Keyword search 'spitfire slipper tank' or 'javelin bosom tank'.

The Gloster Javelin


> ...dual flush-mounted belly tanks with a capacity of 1,137 liters (300 US gallons) each were developed. These tanks were known as *"bosom tanks" or "Sabrinas"*, the last being a nickname commonly applied to brassiere-like fixtures on British aircraft of that era -- in homage to very busty UK pinup girl / starlet Norma Sykes AKA Sabrina.


*Second*...Precisely because the CFT is attached to the main sections of the fuselage and not merely hanging off the wing, its design must be customized for the targeted aircraft with unique considerations for aerodynamics first and radar cross section value second.

*Third*...Precisely because each CFT design must be unique to the targeted aircraft, as in outer shape dictate internal construction, fuel management for each tank design must also be customized. Fuel management here is about transfer between internal compartments, if there are any, rate of transfer, and sequence of transfer. Remember, liquid mass moves (sloshes) and there should be compartmentalization of these forces.

The normal fuel transfer sequence for under wing/fuselage external fuel tank is this:

- Under consumption, engine fuel feed is from main tank and external fuel is transferred to feed main tank. This result in the external fuel tank being the first to empty.

- Under refueling, main tank is refueled to full then fuel is transferred out to the external tank. This result in the external fuel tank being the last to full.

Fuel management for a CFT in relation to main internal fuel system is the same with the under wing system with the addition of the CFT having its own fuel management due to compartments, if there are any.

*Fourth*...Precisely because the CFT is attached to the fuselage and the fuselage have its own maintenance access panels, there must be some provisions to access those panels *THROUGH* the CFT so that there is less (not zero) need to detach the CFT from the aircraft.

Upgrade Of F/A-18 Fuel Tank Gains Ground | AWIN content from Aviation Week


> ...the production version of the tank also will be modified to include plumbing for pumping fuel, as well as enclosures and openings for cooling and conditioning ducts.
> 
> “We have three openings,” says Walke. “One for the fuel oil heat exchangers, another for the liquid-cooling system ground fan, which is used for the radar system ground check out, and the third, which is an environmental control system auxiliary scoop that opens up on the ground and below Mach 0.5.”
> 
> The CFT bolts onto the structure at three attachment points per side, which are designed to keep loads isolated from the rest of the structure and vice versa.



F-15E.info: Strike Eagle reference and resources - F-15E.info - Conformal Fuel Tanks


> Each CFT is equipped with a self-contained air pressurization and vent system, which provides regulated ram air pressure to prevent fuel boiloff at higher altitudes with lower external air pressure. Ram air is acquired from a flush inlet on the side of the CFT and it is used to pressurize all three compartments. This system also provides pressure relief of the CFT through the overboard vents during climb and aerial refueling, and vacuum relief during ground operation.
> 
> *Fuel holding area of each CFT is divided into 3 compartments: forward, center and aft compartments.* Each CFT contains two fuel transfer pumps, one in the center compartment and one in the aft compartment. The center pump transfers fuel from the forward and center compartments, while the aft pump transfers fuel from the aft compartment.


The CFT is a more technically complex system than the under wing/fuselage system, not just in itself but also in relation to aircraft own fuel system. Once attached, there should be minimal removal/reinstallation of the tanks and that is why there are several access panels on the tank itself, for its own maintenance issues and for access to the aircraft's own maintenance issues.

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## Viper0011.

elitepilot09 said:


> Many of those engagements are recognizable as operations conducted by the USAF in Afghanistan. Obviously the F-7 strafing runs are PAF though.



These are Atlas images used by Mirages. The US -16 HUD's target acquisition and weapon explosion details are presented very differently.



elitepilot09 said:


> It is unfortunate that they can prove to be *quite costly and the US doesn't give them up easily. I wonder if the MAR-1's are compatible* with our F-16s, or whether the US would allow it....


HARM has sensitive tech in it and I don't think its offered with any aid package. I am sure if you guys were to buy it, it would be available or at least the export version. 
MAR-1's were built in the Western tech, so IMO the idea behind getting those was to use them on your -16's as well as integrate them with the FT.


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## dexter

*Upgraded variant of F-16V with AESA radar.*






The newest configuration of the F-16 Fighting Falcon, the F-16V, has reached a major capability milestone with the integration of a new Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar.
Group at Lockheed Martin. “It proves once again why customers turn to Lockheed Martin to upgrade their F-16 fleets and advance the mission capability of the world’s most effective 4th generation multi-role fighter.”
Taiwan moves forward as the launch customer for the new F-16V configuration.
More than 4,550 F-16 aircraft have been delivered to date, and production is expected to continue through 2017, with major upgrades being incorporated for all F-16 versions.

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## MastanKhan

QF16 as a drone.


The QF-16 Aerial Target Missile Test Was Successful - Business Insider

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## Donatello

MastanKhan said:


> QF16 as a drone.
> 
> 
> The QF-16 Aerial Target Missile Test Was Successful - Business Insider



It is sad to see such an elegant bird, the finest perhaps ever, turn into a drone.


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## syedali73

Donatello said:


> It is sad to see such an elegant bird, the finest perhaps ever, turn into a drone.


The link heading is misleading. The actual title and news is as follows:

*This Video Of An Unmanned F-16 Fighter Dodging A Missile Is A Glimpse Into The Future Of Aerial Warfare*

The military plane of the future is not likely to have anyone actually inside the aircraft, and a new video released from Boeing gives us a glimpse into what that could look like.

Boeing and the U.S. Air Force have been working on converting old F-16 fighter jets into unmanned aerial targets called QF-16s so pilots can get much more realistic practice, and with a live missile test carried out earlier this week in New Mexico, they’ve gotten even closer.

From Boeing’s news release:

“The QF-16’s mission is really to act as a target and validate weapons systems. So, we do have a scoring system on the airplane and its job is to tell us basically how close the missile came and its trajectory.”

The ground control station sets the coordinates for the missile. Then, using its on board system, the QF-16 validates that the missile hit those coordinates, and detects the distance and speed of the missile. If all the data matches up, the mission is considered a “kill.”

While its first remote flight was back in Sep. 2013, this was the first time they tried shooting a missile at it.

The test was successful, and the aircraft — remotely-piloted with GoPro cameras around the cockpit — returned back to base. According to FlightGlobal, the plan is to get around 210 QF-16s operational as aerial targets in the future.

As we’ve seen with the rapid rise of drone technology and its use in Iraq and Afghanistan, the next step in weaponizing and using them over the battlefield is likely not that far off. While the military hasn’t yet published a requirement for the QF-16s to do such a task, FlightGlobal reports that “Boeing has anticipated an interest in performing that work” and is studying whether it could work alongside the MQ-1 Predator or MQ-9 Reaper drones already flying overseas.

The idea makes sense. Removing a pilot from the cockpit removes the risk of a casualty while still preserving the ability to provide air cover, and drones aren’t really affected by high G-force maneuvers that would make a human being pass out. Of course, the ethics of such a move are another matter worthy of debate.

Regardless, the remotely-piloted aircraft isn’t going away. Instead, it will only gain ground, as two former military pilots recently told Business Insider they expect the F-35 Lightning will likely be the last manned fighter jet.

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## Donatello

syedali73 said:


> The link heading is misleading. The actual title and news is as follows:
> 
> *This Video Of An Unmanned F-16 Fighter Dodging A Missile Is A Glimpse Into The Future Of Aerial Warfare*
> 
> The military plane of the future is not likely to have anyone actually inside the aircraft, and a new video released from Boeing gives us a glimpse into what that could look like.
> 
> Boeing and the U.S. Air Force have been working on converting old F-16 fighter jets into unmanned aerial targets called QF-16s so pilots can get much more realistic practice, and with a live missile test carried out earlier this week in New Mexico, they’ve gotten even closer.
> 
> From Boeing’s news release:
> 
> “The QF-16’s mission is really to act as a target and validate weapons systems. So, we do have a scoring system on the airplane and its job is to tell us basically how close the missile came and its trajectory.”
> 
> The ground control station sets the coordinates for the missile. Then, using its on board system, the QF-16 validates that the missile hit those coordinates, and detects the distance and speed of the missile. If all the data matches up, the mission is considered a “kill.”
> 
> While its first remote flight was back in Sep. 2013, this was the first time they tried shooting a missile at it.
> 
> The test was successful, and the aircraft — remotely-piloted with GoPro cameras around the cockpit — returned back to base. According to FlightGlobal, the plan is to get around 210 QF-16s operational as aerial targets in the future.
> 
> As we’ve seen with the rapid rise of drone technology and its use in Iraq and Afghanistan, the next step in weaponizing and using them over the battlefield is likely not that far off. While the military hasn’t yet published a requirement for the QF-16s to do such a task, FlightGlobal reports that “Boeing has anticipated an interest in performing that work” and is studying whether it could work alongside the MQ-1 Predator or MQ-9 Reaper drones already flying overseas.
> 
> The idea makes sense. Removing a pilot from the cockpit removes the risk of a casualty while still preserving the ability to provide air cover, and drones aren’t really affected by high G-force maneuvers that would make a human being pass out. Of course, the ethics of such a move are another matter worthy of debate.
> 
> Regardless, the remotely-piloted aircraft isn’t going away. Instead, it will only gain ground, as two former military pilots recently told Business Insider they expect the F-35 Lightning will likely be the last manned fighter jet.



I know, this was long time coming, however, a plane that good needs to be flown by men, not used as a guinea pig. Just sad.

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## Frogman

fatman17 said:


> *Lockheed: F-16V Passes Radar Integration Milestone*
> *Aug. 21, 2014 - 12:59PM | By AARON MEHTA | *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Lockheed Martin's F-16V passed a major milestone this week. (Neal Chapman/Lockheed Martin)*
> 
> *WASHINGTON* — Lockheed Martin has moved forward with a major milestone on its F-16V upgrade, the company announced this week.
> The company completed a Critical Design Review to ensure Northrop Grumman’s Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) design has met requirements handed down by the US Air Force. The improved radar capabilities brought by SABR are at the core of the F-16V modification.
> “Completing this milestone on schedule demonstrates our ability to meet program commitments,” Roderick McLean, vice president and general manager of the F-16/F-22 Integrated Fighter Group at Lockheed Martin, said in a company statement. “It proves once again why customers turn to Lockheed Martin to upgrade their F-16 fleets and advance the mission capability of the world’s most effective 4th generation multi-role fighter.”
> Taiwan is slated to be the first customer to receive the F-16V upgrade. In addition to SABR, the upgrade enhances the electronic warfare suite, mission computer and cockpit.
> While Lockheed and US officials insist radar upgrades for Taiwan’s F-16 fleet are still on track, officials in Taiwan have expressed concerns over a US Air Force decision to back out of a major avionics update known as CAPES.
> Northrop was selected by Lockheed over competitor Raytheon to provide the radar upgrade in a hotly contested battle. The upgrade market for F-16s, operated by 25 countries, is expected to remain a fertile growth area for companies at a time when new jet production is coming down.
> The F-16V will be the most advanced model of the F-16, at a time when the legacy models are showing wear and tear. The US Air Force has ordered all F-16B and D models be checked for damage after a series of cracks grounded over half its F-16D fleet.■
> *Email: amehta@defensenews.com.*
> 
> 
> 
> yes soon i believe....



That's odd. The bird pictured is an Egyptian F-16 B52.


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## syedali73

Donatello said:


> I know, this was long time coming, however, a plane that good needs to be flown by men, not used as a guinea pig. Just sad.


This is a technology Pakistan should look into seriously. China has also converted her J-6 into armed drones called B-6.

Around 200 retired J-6/Mig-19 fighters are thought to have been converted to UAVs as B-6 (J-6W?) drones. The aircraft had the wing-root 30mm guns, ejection seat and other life support systems removed. New remote flight control, navigational (GPS?) and fire control systems including datalink were installed. They are believed to have been stationed in Southeast China facing Taiwan (S/N 794xx). Some B-6s are seen carrying two 250kg bombs under the wings, suggesting their role as low-cost ground attack UCAVs, or as cruise missiles or decoys to probe, disrupt even suppress enemy air defence systems. Therefore the guidance system might include passive radar homing for anti-radiation missions. It was rumored that a further upgraded variant has been developed with the cockpit completely removed. Depending on the cost, B-6 could be modified to fly additional missions including ELINT, ECM and laying naval mines. Chinese Military Aviation: UAV/UCAV

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## cengizkahra330

actual pilots are obsolete now - that's so clear 
Pakistan definitely needs to invest more heavily in UAVs


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## Shabi1

syedali73 said:


> This is a technology Pakistan should look into seriously. China has also converted her J-6 into armed drones called B-6.
> 
> Around 200 retired J-6/Mig-19 fighters are thought to have been converted to UAVs as B-6 (J-6W?) drones. The aircraft had the wing-root 30mm guns, ejection seat and other life support systems removed. New remote flight control, navigational (GPS?) and fire control systems including datalink were installed. They are believed to have been stationed in Southeast China facing Taiwan (S/N 794xx). Some B-6s are seen carrying two 250kg bombs under the wings, suggesting their role as low-cost ground attack UCAVs, or as cruise missiles or decoys to probe, disrupt even suppress enemy air defence systems. Therefore the guidance system might include passive radar homing for anti-radiation missions. It was rumored that a further upgraded variant has been developed with the cockpit completely removed. Depending on the cost, B-6 could be modified to fly additional missions including ELINT, ECM and laying naval mines. Chinese Military Aviation: UAV/UCAV





Pakistan needs something similar to the Harpy drone, the retired jets (A-5s, F-6s and F-7s) could be converted to decoys or cruise missiles for performing SEAD/ Wild Weasel tasks. Lure the opponent to turn on there air defenses and then either strike them or have them use up their missiles so that strike jets can have safer passage. All they will need to do is fly to a designated location and then home in onto radar emissions, if they get shot down the opponent is using up missiles (delay for reload or expending ammo) and if succeeded they are putting a missile system permanently out. Israel already has this strategy and has used it.

If Pakistan already has such a strategy in place I doubt if it will be ever be made public, we can only speculate and hope.

UAVs and UCAVs will never make pilots obsolete. They will only compliment them.

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## syedali73

Shabi1 said:


> Pakistan needs something similar to the Harpy drone, the retired jets could be converted to decoys or cruise missiles for performing SEAD/ Wild Weasel tasks. Lure the opponent to turn on there air defenses and then either strike them or have them use up their missiles so that strike jets can have safer passage. Israel already does this.
> 
> UAVs and UCAVs will never make pilots obsolete. They will only compliment them.


One day they sure will, and it is purely because of the physical limitation/inadequecies of the human body for it can only withstand a certain amount of G-force.


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## gambit

cengizkahra330 said:


> actual pilots are obsolete now - that's so clear
> Pakistan definitely needs to invest more heavily in UAVs


*DO NOT* associate what the US does with our UAVs to be technically feasible for everyone. At the component level, yes, Pakistan can do UAVs and high probability with ease. But at the infrastructure level, Pakistan faces huge hurdles.

You have to look at this at the conceptual/philosophical level, which then set the engineering directions. What is the link between pilot and his aircraft ? His limbs. Simple as that. He make a decision to do X, sends a command to his arm to do X, the aircraft via the control stick translate his physical movements into electrical impulses to do X.

With a UAV, this relationship now have several more and lengthier links. Each link have vulnerabilities that must be guarded and nothing is perfect. Radio links are conceptually/philosophically no different than the joints in your arm. The problem with radio links is line-of-sight (LOS) limit.

For example...

- If your link to the UAV is blocked by a mountain, how fast can your UAV becomes autonomous and continues the mission ?

- While being autonomous, how sophisticated is the programming to give the UAV the options to deal with variables, such as hostile radars, queries for identification from friendlies and enemies, and/or even physical threats ?

- If, and once, you re-established communication link with the UAV, what is the priority of mission update, as in what it encountered while you were virtually absent, or the current situation, which may be that it is trying evade threats ? Think about this for a moment. If the UAV is trying to evade radars and missiles, why should it bother to tell you what happened while the two of you were out of communication ? Even more important, if the UAV is trying to survive threats, why should it relinquish its autonomy to your authority ? While you were trying to digest the current situation, the UAV would be flying straight and level, waiting for you, then a missile comes. Now you just lost a valuable combat asset.

The reason why we are successful with our UAV program and fleet is because we have an established link infrastructure, notably satellites to deal with the LOS issue. Not every country can afford this.

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## air marshal

Turkish aviation company to deliver F-16s to Pakistan | Diplomacy | Worldbulletin News

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## Side-Winder

air marshal said:


> Turkish aviation company to deliver F-16s to Pakistan | Diplomacy | Worldbulletin News




That means Today we'll be having all of our F-16 fleet done with modernization? Great News if True...


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## Donatello

air marshal said:


> Turkish aviation company to deliver F-16s to Pakistan | Diplomacy | Worldbulletin News



I believe 46 is the total number of F-16s upgraded to MLU?

@Windjammer


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## Neptune

Donatello said:


> I believe 46 is the total number of F-16s upgraded to MLU?
> 
> @Windjammer




*PAF F-16 Modernization*

Share

Print
inShare
As the result of the tender opened by Pakistan Air Force regarding the modernization of 41 F-16 Aircraft, TAI has been selected as the contractor.

The contract has been signed on 29 June 2009.

The modernization activities started in the last quarter of 2010 by receiving first 3 F-16 to TAI's facilities.

Source: Official Website of TAI regarding PAF MLU Program. 


PAF F-16 Modernization - Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc.

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## Imran Khan

cengizkahra330 said:


> actual pilots are obsolete now - that's so clear
> Pakistan definitely needs to invest more heavily in UAVs


 pilots ko chana chat bechny per laga deen phir ?


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## C130

Analyzing the Pakistan Air Force's F-16 Mid Life Update (MLU) program | Terminal X
is that accurate^?

you all getting new radar and SNIPER targeting pod


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## SQ8

C130 said:


> Analyzing the Pakistan Air Force's F-16 Mid Life Update (MLU) program | Terminal X
> is that accurate^?
> 
> you all getting new radar and SNIPER targeting pod



Yes, essentially in terms of Radar, Cockpit and sensor systems.. the PAF MLU F-16s will be similar to the brand new Block-52s purchased except for a few more goodies in the newer vipers.

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## C130

Oscar said:


> Yes, essentially in terms of Radar, Cockpit and sensor systems.. the PAF MLU F-16s will be similar to the brand new Block-52s purchased except for a few more goodies in the newer vipers.



I see
was just reading a little more about it.

Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s

seems you all got or getting plenty of weapons to go with them too



> *Item 2: Weapons for the New F-16s – $650 Million*
> To equip those new F-16s, the Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM)
> 12 AMRAAM training missiles – these have seeker warheads but lack engines
> 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles; they are the version before the fifth-generation AIM-9X.
> 240 LAU-129/A Launchers – these support AMRAAM or Sidewinder missiles.
> 500 Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) Guidance Kits: GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits
> 1,600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 (500 lb.) and GBU-24s (2,000 lb.) with dual laser/GPS guidance
> 800 MK-82 500 pound General Purpose (GP) and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs
> 700 BLU-109 2,000 pound bunker-buster
> 
> 
> 
> bombs with the FMU-143 Fuse


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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Yes, essentially in terms of Radar, Cockpit and sensor systems.. the PAF MLU F-16s will be similar to the brand new Block-52s purchased except for a few more goodies in the newer vipers.



Why did they only choose to upgrade 41 rather than the full complement? Airframe life issues?


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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Why did they only choose to upgrade 41 rather than the full complement? Airframe life issues?



Costs, at this point further kits are approved and available to Pakistan.


----------



## AsianLion

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/506588200601939968

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## Kompromat

AsianUnion said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/506588200601939968



Now i can count on PAF's newly acquired powerful punch.


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## Thorough Pro

Great news


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## Shabi1

syedali73 said:


> One day they sure will, and it is purely because of the physical limitation/inadequecies of the human body for it can only withstand a certain amount of G-force.



Would like to add to this. the French are working on integrating the Neuran UCAV to their Rafaels so that pilot can control the UCAV


Donatello said:


> Why did they only choose to upgrade 41 rather than the full complement? Airframe life issues?




The deal was made in 2009 and at that time these were all the F-16s we had. The Jordanian ones have already gone through an MLU, minus the new radar.

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## fatman17

*TURKISH FIRM MODERNIZES PAKISTAN'S JETS*

AA
Published : 01.09.2014 23:47:34





ANKARA — Turkish Aerospace Industries has modernized the last four of Pakistan's F-16 fighter jets, completing a five-year contract. The remaining four aircraft will be handed over in a ceremony in Ankara on Tuesday. The company, known by the acronym TUSAŞ, signed a contract with Pakistan's Ministry of Defense in 2009. Under the program, Turkish technicians were to upgrade and test 41 aircraft. The first of the planes were delivered two years ago. TUSAŞ began co-producing U.S.-designed F-16s for the Turkish Air Force in 1984 and is one of the world's main aerospace companies involved in F-16 manufacture and modernization.

It has also upgraded the Royal Jordanian Air Force's F-16s. In a related development, fighter jets from Turkey and Pakistan joined a joint military exercise in central Turkey's Konya that started yesterday. The exercise is part of Turkey's year-long Anatolian Eagle exercise that brings together fighter jet pilots from different countries.

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## nomi007



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## Windjammer

Horus said:


> Now i can count on PAF's newly acquired powerful punch.



Including the Block-52s, we basically now have around 75 F-16s with BVR capability and off course the JF-17s and the PGs.....no wonder the attitude is.....bring it on. !!

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## gambit

fatman17 said:


>


See that pitot probe ?

If the jet is low/empty fuel there will be a slight upward tilt of the nose due to engine weight. If a man is not careful and walks into the uncovered probe, it will gouge some length into his scalp.

If the jet is fully fueled and even with external stores, if a man is not careful and walks into the uncovered probe, it will stab him straight in. He could lose an eye at worst, or have a bloody round circle on his head/face at best.

Either way, maintenance will have to replace, not clean, the probe. There may be small indents on the probe's opening that may give slight false air data info, and for today's pitch unstable and FBW jets, incorrect/inconsistent air data inputs could cause a crash.

Photos


> ...inspects a pitot tube on an F-16 Fighting Falcon for dents...


The probe that made collision with the human head will be sent back to the manufacturer for the reconditioning process. The guy that walked into the probe will most likely have a new nickname.

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## SQ8

gambit said:


> See that pitot probe ?
> 
> If the jet is low/empty fuel there will be a slight upward tilt of the nose due to engine weight. If a man is not careful and walks into the uncovered probe, it will gouge some length into his scalp.
> 
> If the jet is fully fueled and even with external stores, if a man is not careful and walks into the uncovered probe, it will stab him straight in. He could lose an eye at worst, or have a bloody round circle on his head/face at best.
> 
> Either way, maintenance will have to replace, not clean, the probe. There may be small indents on the probe's opening that may give slight false air data info, and for today's pitch unstable and FBW jets, incorrect/inconsistent air data inputs could cause a crash.
> 
> Photos
> 
> The probe that made collision with the human head will be sent back to the manufacturer for the reconditioning process. The guy that walked into the probe will most likely have a new nickname.



How frequenty does(if it does) the FLCS on the viper calculate the CG of the airplane? The various Cat I,II,III modes aside, the release of weapons and consumption of fuel has its effects on it.


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## shanis

Horus said:


> Now i can count on PAF's newly acquired powerful punch.



aallllaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


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## JonAsad

Pics of the 4 birds?-


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## shanis

its Mean now we have all


nomi007 said:


>



Its mean now we have all our F-16's jets upgrades to Mlu(Mid life)
Mlu mean block 50/52+ ?

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## gambit

Oscar said:


> How frequenty does(if it does) the FLCS on the viper calculate the CG of the airplane? The various Cat I,II,III modes aside, the release of weapons and consumption of fuel has its effects on it.


Basically -- all the time. But more precisely: whenever the gyros and accelerometers senses displacements.

It is a closed loop...






The block that says 'Motion sensor' represents the gyros and accelerometers.

Stick inputs go to the FLCC, which initially 'guess' how much displacement voltage to the hydraulics, the gyros and accelerometers provides actual aircraft response which includes external influences such as turbulence, the FLCC then compares stick inputs with aircraft response and recalculate the displacement voltage. This loop is constantly in play for as long as the aircraft is in flight. Center of gravity contributes to what the gyros and accelerometers senses.

For a FBW FLCS, just remove all the mechanical linkages. The loop is still the same. We would have just three lines:

- 'electrical signal' which comes from pilot command,
- 'electrical command signal' which go to the hydraulics,
- and the 'Motion sensor' and 'Aircraft Motion' blocks provides actual aircraft response.

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## gambit

Here is an example of what the 'swing wing' design does to CG...

General Dynamics F-111 AARDVARK/PIG


> The idea of variable geometry wings was not new. However, early attempts had both wings pivot from the middle of the fuselage. This did not work well because *swinging the wing back and forth produced major changes in the center of gravity* and the center of pressure. The Bell X-5 first faced this problem. Its wings pivoted out from a point in the center of the fuselage. This pivot point was mounted on a 27-inch rail. When the wings swung back, the pivot point was moved forward on the rail. When the wings swung forward, the pivot point was moved back on the rail. This worked, but the arrangement was too complex and heavy to be useful in future designs.


The F-111 has a computer assisted mechanical FLCS, complete with 3 FLCCs: pitch, roll, and yaw, three gyros for the three axes, and two accelerometers. That 1950s technology was able to compensate for CG changes whenever the pilot command wing sweeps.

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## nomi007

hope paf will also consider aesa radar for newly f-16s


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## Zarvan

Pakistan Air Force, has received the last batch of 4 upgraded F-16 Multi-role Fighter Aircraft's. 46 of these aircraft's have been upgraded to the Block-52 standards by the Turkish Aerospace Industries. This upgrade package offers a major boost to PAF's combat capabilities.

Tags : ‪#‎PAF‬ ‪#‎Block52‬ ‪#‎Pakistan‬ ‪#‎Turkey‬ ‪#‎F16‬

‪#‎MilitaryIntelligence‬
So it means all of our older F-16 are now fully upgraded am I right ? @Horus @Oscar @Fulcrum15 @fatman17

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## shanis

nomi007 said:


> hope paf will also consider aesa radar for newly f-16s



no i dont think so ... Pakistan consider AESA radar in JF-17 thunder block 2 or 3 ... because thunder is our future and we have to make our future strong healthy powerful ...



Zarvan said:


> Pakistan Air Force, has received the last batch of 4 upgraded F-16 Multi-role Fighter Aircraft's. 46 of these aircraft's have been upgraded to the Block-52 standards by the Turkish Aerospace Industries. This upgrade package offers a major boost to PAF's combat capabilities.
> 
> Tags : ‪#‎PAF‬ ‪#‎Block52‬ ‪#‎Pakistan‬ ‪#‎Turkey‬ ‪#‎F16‬
> 
> ‪#‎MilitaryIntelligence‬
> So it means all of our older F-16 are now fully upgraded am I right ? @Horus @Oscar @Fulcrum15 @fatman17




yup you are right bro ....

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## Zarvan

Windjammer said:


> Including the Block-52s, we basically now have around 75 F-16s with BVR capability and off course the JF-17s and the PGs.....no wonder the attitude is.....bring it on. !!


Now I am waiting desperately for JF-17 Thunder BLOCK II to come up


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## shanis

Zarvan said:


> Now I am waiting desperately for JF-17 Thunder BLOCK II to come up



Mee tooooo


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## Side-Winder

nomi007 said:


> hope paf will also consider aesa radar for newly f-16s



Not in near future atleast


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## Neptune

*According to Piece Drive 2 Program which was signed in 2009, TAI modernised last 4 F-16 A/Bs for Pakistan Air Force.
The program started in 2010 with 3 aircraft which were sent to TAI’s Kazan/Ankara facilities. During the 41 aircraft program, TAI modified 1323 parts in each F-16 which takes around 6 months. 

TAI also trained Pakistan Air Force staff for maintenance and program updates. With the Project, TAI totally finished 3 big F-16 up-grade programs including Turkey and Jordan. 

TAI aims to be grown in modernisation projects. At the moment TAI is on delivery period for Turkish Air Force’s C-130E and T-38 modernisation.

TURKEY AND PAKISTAN JOIN ON TUSAB RAIDERS EXERCISE

Turkey and Pakistan extend aviation relations also with war games. Starting today in Konya Anatolian Eagle Training Centre, total 6 Pakistan F-16 and 27 Turkish F-16’s 2 AS532 SAR helicopters and one E737 will fly until the 12th of September.






*





Credit: @xxxKULxxx

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## SQ8

gambit said:


> Here is an example of what the 'swing wing' design does to CG...
> 
> General Dynamics F-111 AARDVARK/PIG
> 
> The F-111 has a computer assisted mechanical FLCS, complete with 3 FLCCs: pitch, roll, and yaw, three gyros for the three axes, and two accelerometers. That 1950s technology was able to compensate for CG changes whenever the pilot command wing sweeps.



On a side note as someone with flightline maintenance time, this was an odd problem that came up for PAF F-16s and AGM-65s a couple of years ago.


> On two separate occasions, one each AGM 65B has followed an abnormal flight path after launch. Once it rolled over the launching aircraft and went down to the ground. The second time it followed at consistent left turn till it exploded behind the aircraft. In both the cases, the video indicated a good lock by the pilot.
> We have completed all inspections and TCTOs of this AGM variant. Still cannot pin point the problem. Pl identify likely causes.


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## Donatello

gambit said:


> See that pitot probe ?
> 
> If the jet is low/empty fuel there will be a slight upward tilt of the nose due to engine weight. If a man is not careful and walks into the uncovered probe, it will gouge some length into his scalp.
> 
> If the jet is fully fueled and even with external stores, if a man is not careful and walks into the uncovered probe, it will stab him straight in. He could lose an eye at worst, or have a bloody round circle on his head/face at best.
> 
> Either way, maintenance will have to replace, not clean, the probe. There may be small indents on the probe's opening that may give slight false air data info, and for today's pitch unstable and FBW jets, incorrect/inconsistent air data inputs could cause a crash.
> 
> Photos
> 
> The probe that made collision with the human head will be sent back to the manufacturer for the reconditioning process. The guy that walked into the probe will most likely have a new nickname.



Why is there a pitot on the nose cone? Doesn't the f-16s have pitots behind the nose cone, mounted on fuselage, on the side?


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## SQ8

Donatello said:


> Why is there a pitot on the nose cone? Doesn't the f-16s have pitots behind the nose cone, mounted on fuselage, on the side?


Depends on the model.


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## Jango

Not a specific PAF question but what is the purpose of that cylindrical thing in the middle of the engine exhaust?

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## SQ8

Fulcrum15 said:


> Not a specific PAF question but what is the purpose of that cylindrical thing in the middle of the engine exhaust?



Now you know


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## Jango

Oscar said:


> Now you know



After burner?


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## DANGER-ZONE

Fulcrum15 said:


> Not a specific PAF question but what is the purpose of that cylindrical thing in the middle of the engine exhaust?



If you go and see the details of that pictures again on Airliners.net, you will find that this USN F-16 is actually one of the embargoed PAF F-16.
So the question is related to PAF, after all 


Photos: Lockheed F-16B Fighting Falcon Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

Airframe Details for F-16 #92-0461

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## gambit

Donatello said:


> Why is there a pitot on the nose cone? Doesn't the f-16s have pitots behind the nose cone, mounted on fuselage, on the side?


All F-16s have the pitot probe at the radome's tip. This is primary air data for airspeed and altitude, raw and computed. The side air data probe have the same function and works in conjunction with the main pitot probe to provide multiple sources of air data for the FLCS.


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## SQ8

gambit said:


> All F-16s have the pitot probe at the radome's tip. This is primary air data for airspeed and altitude, raw and computed. The side air data probe have the same function and works in conjunction with the main pitot probe to provide multiple sources of air data for the FLCS.



Are you sure? Im not sure if that little point on the radome is a pitot probe.


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## gambit

Oscar said:


> Are you sure? Im not sure if that little point on the radome is a pitot probe.


It is a pitot probe.

Photos


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## SQ8

Fulcrum15 said:


> After burner?


Housing for the shaft. The blades have to rotate on some axis

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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> Are you sure? Im not sure if that little point on the radome is a pitot probe.



That's why i was confused as well Because on some F-16s it is a clear 'long rod' and on some not. Just like the long pitot ADS on the mig-21s. 

Boeing 707/720s had a pitot on the tail fin.


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## dexter

*Turkish aviation company delivers F-16s to Pakistan






Turkish Aerospace Industries handed last four of modernized F-16 fighters to Pakistan in a ceremony in Ankara on Tuesday.

World Bulletin / News Desk*

Turkish Aerospace Industries has delivered the last four upgraded F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan as part of "the Peace Drive" program between Turkey and Pakistan's Ministry of Defense.

The remaining four out of 41 aircraft were handed over in a ceremony in Ankara on Tuesday.

The company, known by the acronym TUSAS, signed a contract to upgrade and test aircraft with Pakistan’s Ministry of Defense in 2009. Under the program, Turkish technicians were to upgrade and test 41 aircraft and the first of the planes was delivered two years ago.

The second edition of the Peace Drive program, which started in October 2010, was due completion by September 2014. The required parts, materials and technical data was given to TUSAS as part of another contract between the U.S. government and the Pakistani Air Force.

TUSAS's chairman Yalcın Kaya said that "the upgraded F-16s would certainly and proudly increase Pakistan Air Force's reliability and functionality."

"This program is not just a project about the collaboration and a long-lasting brotherhood between the two countries. It also comprises of efforts in the detailed planning and accurate technical works resulting in the top quality proven outcome at the end," Kaya said.

Pakistan Air Marshall Sohail Aman said both Pakistan and Turkey need to work with more collaboration and coherence in future.

"The future of the three countries (US, Turkey, Pakistan) is together since the objective of all three countries is to generate global peace and make the world safer," he said.

Yilmaz Guldogan, a defense expert, said this program shows Turkey's and the Aerospace Industry's achievement in international aerospace technology and defense.

"TUSAS is one of the leading companies worldwide in aircraft modernization. It is expected that more international demands will be received for the company's services," Yilmaz said.

TUSAS began co-producing U.S.-designed F-16s for the Turkish Air Force in 1984 and is one of the world’s main aerospace companies involved in the manufacture and modernization of the fighter jets. It has also upgraded the Royal Jordanian Air Forces' F-16s.

source: Turkish aviation company delivers F-16s to Pakistan | Diplomacy | Worldbulletin News

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## gambit

Donatello said:


> That's why i was confused as well Because on some F-16s it is a clear 'long rod' and on some not. Just like the long pitot ADS on the mig-21s.
> 
> Boeing 707/720s had a pitot on the tail fin.


You better take closer look at whatever pictures you saw. There are no 'long rods' on the F-16 worldwide fleet. All of them are pitot probes, or tubes, however anyone want to call the device.


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## Donatello

gambit said:


> You better take closer look at whatever pictures you saw. There are no 'long rods' on the F-16 worldwide fleet. All of them are pitot probes, or tubes, however anyone want to call the device.



Hi,

That is what i meant. That the 'long rod' thing is actually the pitot. Plus, pitot is a hollow cylinder anyway, since it works by that design.

However, what i meant was, that some have appeared to be shorter than others. Maybe it was the angle of the photograph.


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## RAMPAGE

It was a pleasure doing business with you.

Thank you Turkey and TAI !!!

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## dexter

*Amazingly, the following ten aircraft types account for 67% of the total 14,788 combat aircraft currently in active use around the globe.

F-16 is at the top.*

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## nomi007

Rolling out ceremony of Pakistani modern F-16ss at TAI (Turkish aerospace industries )

Long Live PAK-TURK Friendship

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## dexter

*PAF have now All 45 A/B converted to MLU*

MLU upgrade consist of

1. APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic aperture radars
2. Joint Helmet Mounted Cuing System JHMCS
3. AN/APX-113 Advanced Identify Friend or Foe Systems
4. AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems
5. Have Quick I/II Radios
6. Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminal
7. SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pods
8. Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units; MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
9. 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency
10. Memory (DRFM) or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
11. 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems
12. 1 Unit Level Trainer and
13. 10 APG-68(V)9 spare radar sets
14. F100-PW-220E engines external link
15. Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits

De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft
Support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program.

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## syed_yusuf

Will paf for mlu on ex Jordanian 13 examples?


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## thrilainmanila

does PAF have AMRAAMs?


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## Viper0011.

syed_yusuf said:


> Will paf for mlu on ex Jordanian 13 examples?


No need to MLU those 13 jets. They are the ADF version and they came with provisions for AMRAAMs and associated radar upgrades. They should ideally be used as interceptors.


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## Luftwaffe

orangzaib said:


> No need to MLU those 13 jets. They are the ADF version and they came with provisions for AMRAAMs and associated radar upgrades. They should ideally be used as interceptors.



According to reputed f-16.net


> Pakistan Air Force F-16
> 
> When deliveries started in May of 2014 is was obvious that the order compromised the Jordanian airframes of the Peace Falcon I order. Three of those crashed over the years with 13 of them remaining. Although only one B-models was announced with the first delivery already 2 were on the tarmac and the other 2 followed soon. So now it is obvious that the order compromised 9 A-models and 4 B-models in the ADF version. These airframes haven't been upgraded to MLU standard. With Pakistan upgrading all its older A/B models to the MLU standard it would seem obvious that these airframes will also be upgraded accordingly. The future will tell us whether this will come to fruition.


----------



## Kompromat

orangzaib said:


> No need to MLU those 13 jets. They are the ADF version and they came with provisions for AMRAAMs and associated radar upgrades. They should ideally be used as interceptors.



Right now the new ADF F-16 Sq is being used for young pilots coming from the F-7P/PG and Mirage III/V squadrons after racking up 250-300 hours to get transferred onto the F-16s and to finally achieve operational status.

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## Viper0011.

Luftwaffe said:


> According to reputed f-16.net



I see where you are going with this. The MLU is an entire package but here, the term is being used for Structural / Airframe upgrades, which essentially means UP/STAR upgrade package for the airframe. If you see a few posts above, there is a list of the entire MLU package to bring up the Block 16 capability to Block 40, there are many other upgrades that happen within the MLU. 
But since these jets already have upgraded Radars and provisions for AMRAAMs, I can't imagine why cash starved PAF would want to spend millions in getting these upgraded beyond UP/STAR. That would give the airframe a LOT more life but will keep the cost way down. These jets can be real important assets for Escort and Interception. The additional $$$ can go towards the JFT or towards acquiring more used -16's.

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## Donatello

orangzaib said:


> I see where you are going with this. The MLU is an entire package but here, the term is being used for Structural / Airframe upgrades, which essentially means UP/STAR upgrade package for the airframe. If you see a few posts above, there is a list of the entire MLU package to bring up the Block 16 capability to Block 40, there are many other upgrades that happen within the MLU.
> But since these jets already have upgraded Radars and provisions for AMRAAMs, I can't imagine why cash starved PAF would want to spend millions in getting these upgraded beyond UP/STAR. That would give the airframe a LOT more life but will keep the cost way down. These jets can be real important assets for Escort and Interception. The additional $$$ can go towards the JFT or towards acquiring more used -16's.



Do they have the APG68?


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## Luftwaffe

Donatello said:


> Do they have the APG68?



I believe APG-66/A


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## fatman17

*TAI Delivers Last Four Upgraded Pakistan AF F-16A/Bs*
September 2nd, 2014 


TURKISH AEROSPACE Industries (TAI) has delivered the last four of 41 Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16s to be upgraded under […]


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## Viper0011.

Donatello said:


> Do they have the APG68?



APG 66 V I. These were upgraded twice between 1997 and then around 2002 if memory serves me correctly. Some of these may already have been through STAR. But not all of them. APG 66 I & II (or Block A & B) are not bad radars with detection range a little north of 150 Miles with both, Semi-Active Sparrow and AMRAAM capability active.


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## ejaz007

*Turkey Delivers Upgraded F-16s to Pakistan*

*ANKARA* — Turkey has delivered the last four F-16 fighter aircraft it upgraded for the Pakistani Air Force, the company tasked with the work said Sept. 2.

Turkey’s aerospace powerhouse, Tusas Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), said in a written statement that it concluded the Pakistani F-16 upgrade program by delivering the last four aircraft to the Pakistani Air Force.

The program involved avionics and structural modernization for 41 Pakistani F-16s.

TAI, which assembled F-16 fighter jets in Turkey in the 1980s and 1990s, today manufactures parts for Boeing, headquartered in Chicago, and Stratford, Conn.-based helicopter-maker Sikorsky. The company also participates in the multinational JSF program and the A400M, known in Turkey as the Future Large Aircraft.

TAI also has upgraded scores of Turkish F-16s. In a more ambitious program the company has been designing an indigenous Turkish fighter aircraft.

Last December, TAI also won a contract from the Turkish government for the serial production of two versions of the Hurkus basic trainer aircraft, which it developed. ■

*Email: bbekdil@defensenews.com.

Turkey Delivers Upgraded F-16s to Pakistan | Defense News | defensenews.com*


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Do they have the APG68?


 
yes. both A/B and C/D models.
January 10, 2007 (by Asif Shamim) - *Northrop Grumman has been awarded a contract to provide its advanced AN/APG-68(V)9 airborne fire control radar capability for F-16 fighter aircraft for the Pakistan Air Force. *


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## nomi007

*ALERT!*
*After US, Singapore Suspended the Flights of the F-16D*
Singapore Air Force suspended flights of double combat-capable fighter aircraft F-16D, stationed at an air base in Arizona Luke. It is reported by Jane's Defense Ministry with reference to the country.
According to the agency, in the course of checks on several planes were found *cracked* spar cockpit. About how many fighters in question is not specified. Estimated to Jane's, Luke Air Force Base may be about a dozen of Singapore F-16 Block 52 in single and double versions (C / D).
Earlier defects spars found on F-16D USAF. As a result, Air Force Command decided to suspend the flights 82 of 157 of these fighters. Subsequently, the Pentagon has recommended to conduct similar checks all member operators F-16D.
Causes of *cracks* is not yet known. United States Air Force has launched an investigation, which involved experts of Lockheed Martin, which produces F-16 fighters.

KINDLY @Oscar SHARE THIS NEWS WITH PAFhttp://defense-studies.blogspot.com/2014/09/after-us-singapore-suspended-flights-of.html
DEFENSE STUDIES: After US, Singapore Suspended the Flights of the F-16D


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## shanis

ejaz007 said:


> *Turkey Delivers Upgraded F-16s to Pakistan*
> 
> *ANKARA* — Turkey has delivered the last four F-16 fighter aircraft it upgraded for the Pakistani Air Force, the company tasked with the work said Sept. 2.
> 
> Turkey’s aerospace powerhouse, Tusas Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), said in a written statement that it concluded the Pakistani F-16 upgrade program by delivering the last four aircraft to the Pakistani Air Force.
> 
> The program involved avionics and structural modernization for 41 Pakistani F-16s.
> 
> TAI, which assembled F-16 fighter jets in Turkey in the 1980s and 1990s, today manufactures parts for Boeing, headquartered in Chicago, and Stratford, Conn.-based helicopter-maker Sikorsky. The company also participates in the multinational JSF program and the A400M, known in Turkey as the Future Large Aircraft.
> 
> TAI also has upgraded scores of Turkish F-16s. In a more ambitious program the company has been designing an indigenous Turkish fighter aircraft.
> 
> Last December, TAI also won a contract from the Turkish government for the serial production of two versions of the Hurkus basic trainer aircraft, which it developed. ■
> 
> *Email: bbekdil@defensenews.com.
> 
> Turkey Delivers Upgraded F-16s to Pakistan | Defense News | defensenews.com*




Meet the F-16 Block 50-52+, which is considered to be among the most lethal Multirole fighter aircrafts in the world. All of Pakistan's F-16s are upgraded or in the process of being upgraded to the same standards..
check this video about F-16 block 50-52+





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152439647307663

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## fatman17

Quote of the Day:

If at first you don't succeed, call in an airstrike.

-- From Murphy's Laws of Combat Operations



nomi007 said:


> *ALERT!*
> *After US, Singapore Suspended the Flights of the F-16D*
> Singapore Air Force suspended flights of double combat-capable fighter aircraft F-16D, stationed at an air base in Arizona Luke. It is reported by Jane's Defense Ministry with reference to the country.
> According to the agency, in the course of checks on several planes were found *cracked* spar cockpit. About how many fighters in question is not specified. Estimated to Jane's, Luke Air Force Base may be about a dozen of Singapore F-16 Block 52 in single and double versions (C / D).
> Earlier defects spars found on F-16D USAF. As a result, Air Force Command decided to suspend the flights 82 of 157 of these fighters. Subsequently, the Pentagon has recommended to conduct similar checks all member operators F-16D.
> Causes of *cracks* is not yet known. United States Air Force has launched an investigation, which involved experts of Lockheed Martin, which produces F-16 fighters.
> 
> KINDLY @Oscar SHARE THIS NEWS WITH PAF
> DEFENSE STUDIES: After US, Singapore Suspended the Flights of the F-16D


 
dont worry LM would have informed PAF directly....

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## Stealth



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## Imran Khan

Stealth said:


>





contract was included 36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS) yaar so 18 with new and 18 with MLU ?


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## Stealth

Imran Khan said:


> contract was included 36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS) yaar so 18 with new and 18 with MLU ?



Heard that Pakistan Airforce also going to purchase for rest of the force.... hold on maar lalay....


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## Imran Khan

Stealth said:


> Heard that Pakistan Airforce also going to purchase for rest of the force.... hold on maar lalay....


 jab tak DSCA na dekh loon ulty taawy per bethy PAF to bhi na manoon


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## My-Analogous

I just here from PTV global that PAF received last Midlife upgraded F16.

@WebMaster @Aeronaut @Abu Nasar @Akheilos @Hazzy997 @al-Hasani @Yzd Khalifa @Mosamania @MastanKhan @Jungibaaz @Kaan @GreenFalcon @Zarvan @PWFI @chauvunist @Areesh @BDforever @Fahad Khan 2 @JanjaWeed @Devil Soul @Fulcrum15 @ranjeet @Koovie @Jazzbot @Raja.Pakistani @NKVD @nair @levina @Jungibaaz @W.11 @American Pakistani @HRK @Leader @iranigirl2 @Jaanbaz @Ceylal @MOHSENAM @Zizou @500 @Luftwaffe @Armstrong @Sidak @scorpionx @Indischer @Roybot @krash @American Pakistani @Soumitra @Nihonjin1051 @cnleio @Jf Thunder

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## rockstar08

MLU'd ?

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## My-Analogous

rockstar08 said:


> MLU'd ?



YES Last MLU or MidLife Upgrade or Midlife Upgrade Aircraft (MLUA)


----------



## [--Leo--]

kindly post any video or source i know this is true i want more detail on that and what about those 14 f-16 we recive later are those upgraded?


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## My-Analogous

Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc. (TAI) delivered the last four F-16 aircraft to Pakistan Air Force (PAF) under Pakistan F-16 Modernization Program, at a ceremony held at TAI's facilities in Ankara, Turkey, on September 02, 2014.

The avionics and structural modernization of *41 F-16s of Pakistan Air Force*, under the program which was effected by a contract between TAI and Pakistan Ministry of Defense in 2009, was performed at TAI's facilities. Pakistan Air Force personnel also have been qualified for the modernization by having classroom and on-the-job training given by TAI and have participated to the work performed at TAI.

Many high level authorities among whom were Pakistan Air Force Deputy Chief of Staff (Operations) Air Marshal Sohail Aman, Pakistan Ambassador HE Muhammad Haroon Shaukat, Turkish Air Force Chief of Staff Lt.Gen. Mehmet Şanver, Deputy Undersecretary for Defense Industries Dr. Faruk Özlü, TAI's Chairman of the Board Yalçın Kaya, Deputy General Manager Turkish Armed Forces Foundation Atilla Gürdere and TAI's President & CEO Muharrem Dörtkaşlı participated in the ceremony.

Being among the well-known companies in the world and in the field of F-16 modernization, TAI successfully realized PAF F-16 Modernization Program and has proved its success in the world's aerospace and defense arena. The quality and performance of the program was highly appreciated by Pakistan Air Force and has been valued as the precedent of success and cooperation between Pakistan Air Force and TAI for the future projects. This appraisal will also substantiate the collaboration between two countries for the future.

@Leo

https://www.tai.com.tr/en/basin-bul...ed-f-16s-were-delivered-to-pakistan-air-force




[quote="[--Leo--] said:


> kindly post any video or source i know this is true i want more detail on that and what about those 14 f-16 we recive later are those upgraded?



Check the link now


----------



## Viper0011.

Luftwaffe said:


> According to reputed f-16.net



I think I answered someone else on here or may be that was you. Go through my previous posts please. Can you upgrade these jets further? Absolutely, can the F-16 Block 52 and Block 60 be further upgraded? Yes. Is it worth it? Probably not.

The term MLU is being used here in a different context. The MLU "package" comprises of a LOT of different upgrades including UP/STAR structural package, Avionics Package, upgraded wiring, mission computer, EW and all.

The upgrade you posted from F16.net mentions using the Term MLU as really UP/STAR. Which is the structure of the airframe so that the airframe can be enhanced to give more life to the plane. In terms of Avionics and electric / MC related upgrades (which is really "all other upgrades"), you don't need those. The plane's version has majority of those upgrades in it as of its time and a version or two behind the Block 52, including the ability to use BVR's (AMRAAMS) right away.

The point I was trying to make is, instead of putting these planes through the entire MLU (which I don't think they require), put them through STAR package and bring up the airframe's life and add more hours to it. Use these plane for Interceptor role as they are already up to date with BVR (Albeit previous version of radar but still capable to look and shoot out to 150 miles).

Then, the money saved through not buying expensive avionics, use that money to acquire more used ADF versions or used -16's in number which are available right now from the US and other places and these numbers will increase as the -35 starts deliveries.

That would give you much more bang for the buck in terms of numbers and capability and will ease off pressure from the PAF. Then, instead of looking at other options like used Mirages or J-10B, etc, etc. Just invest in a Fifth Gen co-production of a "Stealthy" JFT Block III based on J-31's tech or J-31 itself. You'll be on par with any other modern air force if that happens.



shanis said:


> Meet the F-16 Block 50-52+, which is considered to be among the most lethal Multirole fighter aircrafts in the world. All of Pakistan's F-16s are upgraded or in the process of being upgraded to the same standards..
> check this video about F-16 block 50-52+



Just FYI, the Block 15 upgrades with MLU don't become Block 52, they become Block 40 which is what the US Air National Guard uses. Block 52 and onwards, its really a different plane. But there is not a whole lot of difference (capability wise) between Block 40 and 52 (Weapons carrying, Missiles and all). There are many structural changes along with avionics and electronics that can't be added to Block 40.

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## Fahad Khan 2

41 upgraded by TAI
3 upgraded by USA Dallas facility
13 from Jordan already MLU
18 Block 52

Total 44 upgraded

How many A\B were there in PAF? Is my above stats right??


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## syed_yusuf

Fahad Khan 2 said:


> 41 upgraded by TAI
> 3 upgraded by USA Dallas facility
> 13 from Jordan already MLU
> 18 Block 52
> 
> Total 44 upgraded
> 
> How many A\B were there in PAF? Is my above stats right??



Correction - 4 upgraded by USA 

total of 45 upgraded to date

Jordanian f-16 are of older upgrade and would require MLU tape 5 as that is done to PAF 45 F-16 to bring to near par with that of blk52's


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## aliyusuf

orangzaib said:


> ...
> Just FYI, the Block 15 upgrades with MLU don't become Block 52, they become Block 40 which is what the US Air National Guard uses. Block 52 and onwards, its really a different plane. But there is not a whole lot of difference (capability wise) between Block 40 and 52 (Weapons carrying, Missiles and all). There are many structural changes along with avionics and electronics that can't be added to Block 40.



This is the MLU Package (as per DSCA specs) ...

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B *Mid-Life Update (MLU)* modification and *Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement* kits consisting of:

*APG-68(V)9* with Synthetic Aperture Radar or APG-66(V)2 radar; .... *[PAF opted for APG-68(V)9]*

*Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems;*
AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems;
Have Quick I/II Radios;
Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals;
SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability;
Reconnaissance pod capability;
Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units;
MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems
https://timemilitary.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/pakistan_06-10.pdf

This brings our MLU-ed vipers to the same level as the Block-52+ except mainly for engine power, loiter time, conformal tanks, range and maximum weapons load.


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## Windjammer




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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Its never last , until we get the next 20 batch


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## Fahad Khan 2

yes its true..

but we orderd 60 kits and we have only 45 f16 a\b so what about other 15 kits..


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## Viper0011.

aliyusuf said:


> This is the MLU Package (as per DSCA specs) ...
> 
> *This brings our MLU-ed vipers to the same level as the Block-52+ except mainly for engine power, loiter time, conformal tanks, range and maximum weapons load.*



Please see the bold, that was precisely my point. The engine power, the loiter time, the conformation fuel tanks, range and maximum weapons loads are HUGE items that differentiate between a Block 40 and Block 52 planes (or a MLU'd plane brought up to Block 40 levels like the PAF's -16's).

The -16 Block 52 and above is simply a new jet from all the items you listed above. Avionics wise, you can bring in the same capability as the Block 52 (Still a little inferior for AESA refit, EM, Defensive Suite, etc). But overall, you remain at a Block 40 level capability wise (as you mentioned in your post), with almost Block 52 level avionics.

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## aliyusuf

orangzaib said:


> Please see the bold, that was precisely my point. *The engine power, the loiter time, the conformation fuel tanks, range and maximum weapons loads* are HUGE items that differentiate between a Block 40 and Block 52 planes (or a MLU'd plane brought up to Block 40 levels like the PAF's -16's).
> 
> The -16 Block 52 and above is simply a new jet from all the items you listed above. Avionics wise, you can bring in the same capability as the Block 52 (Still a little inferior for AESA refit, EM, Defensive Suite, etc). But overall, you remain at a Block 40 level capability wise (as you mentioned in your post), with almost Block 52 level avionics.



Although I am clear on the fact that our MLUs are avionics (same radar, sensors and JHMCS) wise and type of weapons wise at the same level as the Block-52+ but they do not come to the same level on the aspects mentioned in my previous post and corroborated by you above (see the portion in bold) ...

What I am not clear about is how does the Block-40 come into the context?
Our Block-15 MLUs don't have the same engines, range and take-off weights as the Block-40 either.
The Block-40 has inferior radar (APG-68(V)5) and sensors to our MLUs and the Block-52+.
Our MLUs are the structurally and engine wise still at Block-15 level.
So maybe I am missing your point ... so if you could elaborate on it, I would be grateful.

Thanks.


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## Viper0011.

aliyusuf said:


> What I am not clear about is how does the Block-40 come into the context?
> Our Block-15 MLUs don't have the same engines, range and take-off weights as the Block-40 either.
> The Block-40 has inferior radar (APG-68(V)5) and sensors to our MLUs and the Block-52+.
> Our MLUs are the structurally and engine wise still at Block-15 level.
> So maybe I am missing your point ... so if you could elaborate on it, I would be grateful.
> Thanks.



Whether your radar can see 200 miles away or not or whether you have a great EW and Defensive Suite....the aircraft's physical limitations won't help the plane fly extra 500 miles or with with 2000 Ib's additional armament JUST due to better avionics.

Within its allowed range those higher end avionics will make a difference but the aircraft's ability is somewhat limited than a true Block 52 in terms of *The engine power, the loiter time, the range and maximum weapons loads* .

The current Engine Power, Loiter Time the Weapons loads equate to Block 40 jets. That was the block before the entire structure was changed and upgraded for Block 52 and onwards. Plus, in Pakistan's scenario, it is great that you now have a true multi-role capability, but you can't in the future upgrade these Block 15 jets like you would a Block 52 and 60 as the structure is different now.
US ANG uses Block 40 jets with same or similar avionics than what's in a Block 52. Of course these are much superior as they are internal. The export versions don't have all the features the US -16's enjoy.

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## fatman17

orangzaib said:


> Please see the bold, that was precisely my point. The engine power, the loiter time, the conformation fuel tanks, range and maximum weapons loads are HUGE items that differentiate between a Block 40 and Block 52 planes (or a MLU'd plane brought up to Block 40 levels like the PAF's -16's).
> 
> The -16 Block 52 and above is simply a new jet from all the items you listed above. Avionics wise, you can bring in the same capability as the Block 52 (Still a little inferior for AESA refit, EM, Defensive Suite, etc). But overall, you remain at a Block 40 level capability wise (as you mentioned in your post), with almost Block 52 level avionics.


 
and thats still pretty good.


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## Donatello

orangzaib said:


> Whether your radar can see 200 miles away or not or whether you have a great EW and Defensive Suite....the aircraft's physical limitations won't help the plane fly extra 500 miles or with with 2000 Ib's additional armament JUST due to better avionics.
> 
> Within its allowed range those higher end avionics will make a difference but the aircraft's ability is somewhat limited than a true Block 52 in terms of *The engine power, the loiter time, the range and maximum weapons loads* .
> 
> The current Engine Power, Loiter Time the Weapons loads equate to Block 40 jets. That was the block before the entire structure was changed and upgraded for Block 52 and onwards. Plus, in Pakistan's scenario, it is great that you now have a true multi-role capability, but you can't in the future upgrade these Block 15 jets like you would a Block 52 and 60 as the structure is different now.
> US ANG uses Block 40 jets with same or similar avionics than what's in a Block 52. Of course these are much superior as they are internal. The export versions don't have all the features the US -16's enjoy.




The main idea was to have common weapons support across the fleet. As long as they can fire the AIM120, the job is set.
Of course more payload helps, but there is a limit to what you can extract from 30 year old jets.

41 MLU-ed jets are a lot better than Blk15 standard. There cannot be a direct comparison with new built BLK52s. The MLU gives massive leaps in technology at a fraction of the cost.

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## Viper0011.

Donatello said:


> The main idea was to have common weapons support across the fleet. *As long as they can fire the AIM120, the job is set.* Of course more payload helps, but there is a limit to what you can extract from 30 year old jets.
> *
> 41 MLU-ed jets are a lot better than Blk15 standard. *There cannot be a direct comparison with new built BLK52s. The MLU gives massive leaps in technology at a fraction of the cost.



Thank you. Precisely my points to OP of this debate. My suggestion was to not put the Jordanian ADF -16's through an entire MLU as it's still expensive and they can Fire BVR's as is without changes. So keep them for interceptions, put them through a much cheaper UP/STAR upgrade to enhance airframes life and that would do the trick. The money you'll save by not doing everything you did to your old block 15's, can then be used to go buy more used -16's (ADF preferably) so you are building numbers as that's more important.

And 41 or 100 used -16's BVR-able, is a heck of a force to mess with. The point was to create strong deterrence and not keep spending the money on every used -16 that you buy if there is no need for it. The -16's ADF don't need an entire MLU as they can fire AMRAAMS today and to your point, that's the most critical capability needed right now.

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## Trick2UAV

found that today, i dont no if somebody already post that
it shows the PAKISTAN AIR FORCE F-16 MODERNIZATION PROGRAM in turkey


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## nomi007

*Pakistani F-16ss up gradation program by TAI (Turkish aerospace industries).*




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=291998361004996

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## redgriffin

Block 40/42 iirc use the same F110/F100 variants as the Block 50/52.
Difference is both blocks were made for different roles. 40/42 precision & night time tactical strike roles using lantirn. Their avionics are optimized for this role including the wide angle Holographic HUD.
Block 50/52 & advanced versions were initially focused on the SEAD role with greater multirole capabilities than the strike oriented 40/42s.
PAF's MLU is the Tape 5 which brings avionics to 50/52 levels. No engine enhancement from PW F-100 pw 220 to PW 229.
Frankly saying that 50/42 avionics are same as 5x os a misnomer. Different roles different optimizations unless talking about MSIP Vipers.

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## Luftwaffe

redgriffin said:


> Block 40/42 iirc use the same F110/F100 variants as the Block 50/52.
> Difference is both blocks were made for different roles. 40/42 precision & night time tactical strike roles using lantirn. Their avionics are optimized for this role including the wide angle Holographic HUD.
> Block 50/52 & advanced versions were initially focused on the SEAD role with greater multirole capabilities than the strike oriented 40/42s.
> PAF's MLU is the Tape 5 which brings avionics to 50/52 levels. No engine enhancement from PW F-100 pw 220 to PW 229.
> Frankly saying that 50/42 avionics are same as 5x os a misnomer. Different roles different optimizations unless talking about MSIP Vipers.



USAF have dedicated squadrons comprised of Block 40/42/50 for SEAD missions before that F-4s were in that role. Also many Block 40/42/30 and even Blk 15 in Attack Roles.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We need a new order of F16 its been too long since we had F16 introduced , I feel like it was when I was young kid


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## Viper0011.

redgriffin said:


> Block 40/42 iirc use the same F110/F100 variants as the Block 50/52.
> Difference is both blocks were made for different roles. 40/42 precision & night time tactical strike roles using lantirn. Their avionics are optimized for this role including the wide angle Holographic HUD.
> Block 50/52 & advanced versions were initially focused on the SEAD role with greater multirole capabilities than the strike oriented 40/42s.



Also remember, the engine power is different between out of the box block 52 compared to MLU's or block 40/42 Vipers (even between PW 100 and GE F 404 variants as each variant has power output different). With somewhat slightly different internal fuel carrying structure and with CFT's, the loiter time is much different in the Block 52 than in block 40's. Then there is weapons carrying capacity that's much larger with additional POD integrations pretty much ready to go in block 52 vipers than in MLU'd or block 40 jets.
Add future upgrade capacity, the MLU'd won't get further larger upgrades due to the airframe differences. So there are differences between the two versions. Avionics vise, yes, they are almost on par with current upgrades. For Pakistan, this is great as the capability they've received is tremendous for the war theater they may be dealing with. My suggestion behind the post with the OP was to not put the ADF through the entire MLU process, just do the STAR structure enhancements. Then use the money saved by limited MLU (if you will) and go buy additional Block 40 or ADF versions of -16's so the PAF can accumulate numbers of -16's. The beauty of the ADF version is that they come with pre-wired BVR capability and a version below the APG-68(v9) radar. So its almost on par without having to spend extra money. Structure enhancements would do and you got a very potent combat ready interceptor with decent multi-role capability.


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## nomi007

*PAF's F-16 fleet is undergoing modernization at Turkish Aircraft Industries (TAI), Turkey. *


*F-16 MLU includes Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS) capability, Link-16 data link, AN/APX-133 Advance Identification Friend or Foe Systems (AIFF), colored Multi-Functional Displays, AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems, “six-on-six”AIM-120 AMRAAM capability, Sniper Advanced targeting pod capability, AN/ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) pod capability and reconnaissance pod capability. *

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## SQ8

orangzaib said:


> Also remember, the engine power is different between out of the box block 52 compared to MLU's or block 40/42 Vipers (even between PW 100 and *GE F 404 *variants as each variant has power output different). *With somewhat slightly different internal fuel carrying structure and with CFT's, the loiter time is much different in the Block 52 than in block 40's.* Then there is weapons carrying capacity that's much larger with additional POD integrations pretty much ready to go in block 52 vipers than in MLU'd or block 40 jets.
> Add future upgrade capacity, the MLU'd won't get further larger upgrades due to the airframe differences. So there are differences between the two versions. Avionics vise, yes, they are almost on par with current upgrades. For Pakistan, this is great as the capability they've received is tremendous for the war theater they may be dealing with. My suggestion behind the post with the OP was to not put the ADF through the entire MLU process, just do the STAR structure enhancements. Then use the money saved by limited MLU (if you will) and go buy additional Block 40 or ADF versions of -16's so the PAF can accumulate numbers of -16's. The beauty of the ADF version is that they come with pre-wired BVR capability and a version below the APG-68(v9) radar. So its almost on par without having to spend extra money. Structure enhancements would do and you got a very potent combat ready interceptor with decent multi-role capability.



GE F-101

Apart from the plumbing for the CFTs, internally the fuel systems stay pretty much the same





Certain differences arise in the newer 50/52+ models with the enlarged vertail stabilizer foundations as these are borrowed from the Block-60. But essentially a lot is identical in terms of fuel storage between the block 42 and 52. Only the Block-60 is an entirely different beast( needed to accommodate the various additional avionics and completely different engine).







The MLU's can in theory carry all weapons that the block-52 can. The true difference beside the newer airframe and increased fuel capacity is the internal carriage of the AIDEWS system that the MLU will carry in a pod, and certain extra tronica thingies that the MLU's do not have. Whatever the public perception, one should not underestimate what is under the hood of the Block-52's. They are possibly still the most advanced aircraft operating in the theatre for now.

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## Armstrong

Oscar said:


> The MLU's can in theory carry all weapons that the block-52 can. The true difference beside the newer airframe and increased fuel capacity is the internal carriage of the AIDEWS system that the MLU will carry in a pod, and certain extra tronica thingies that the MLU's do not have. Whatever the public perception, one should not underestimate what is under the hood of the Block-52's. They are possibly still the most advanced aircraft operating in the theatre for now.



So are you saying that I can make @Dillinger squeal like a girl when I buzz over-head in my Block 52 ?  

And why aren't you sending more remittances - We need to buy more Block 52s !  

Mazaaak banayaa hovaa haiii tum logooon neiii - $$$ kiyaa darakht pei ugteiii hain ?  

Achaa khair jokes aside - A serious question : If you had to put a number on it are the MLUed F-16s perhaps 80% of their Block 52 counterparts ? 

And how does the Jf-17 Block 2/3 rate against the Block 52 ? 60% as capable - Less or More ?


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## SQ8

Armstrong said:


> So are you saying that I can make @Dillinger squeal like a girl when I buzz over-head in my Block 52 ?
> 
> And why aren't you sending more remittances - We need to buy more Block 52s !
> 
> Mazaaak banayaa hovaa haiii tum logooon neiii - $$$ kiyaa darakht pei ugteiii hain ?
> 
> Achaa khair jokes aside - A serious question : If you had to put a number on it are the MLUed F-16s perhaps 80% of their Block 52 counterparts ?
> 
> And how does the Jf-17 Block 2/3 rate against the Block 52 ? 60% as capable - Less or More ?



MLU's are in terms of internal avionics 85% of the Block-52's.(the block-52 mounts the AIDEWS internally). 
MLU's are in terms of weapons ability 100% of the block-52's.
MLU's are in terms of airframe 80% of the block-52s.

JF-17 is in terms of avionics some 70% capable as a block-52.
In terms of flight capability it is 80% of the block-52.
In terms of design sophistication it is 50% of a block-52.

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## nomi007

@Oscar @fatman17 @Manticore
is paf using dual rackets on its f-16s
like this


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## Bratva

Oscar said:


> GE F-101
> 
> 
> 
> The MLU's can in theory carry all weapons that the block-52 can. The true difference beside the newer airframe and increased fuel capacity is the internal carriage of the* AIDEWS* system that the MLU will carry in a pod, and certain extra tronica thingies that the MLU's do not have. Whatever the public perception, one should not underestimate what is under the hood of the *Block-52's. They are possibly still the most advanced aircraft operating in the theatre for now*.



AIDEWS which is without DFRM evens the play field and puts it at par with MKI, isn't it ?



> 36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites without Digital Radio
> Frequency Memory (DRFM) or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM


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## Kompromat

AIDEWS for MLUs, is on on order.


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## Bratva

Horus said:


> *AIDEWS for MLUs*, is on on order.




are you sure? everywhere the figure quoted is 36


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## Donatello

Oscar said:


> MLU's are in terms of internal avionics 85% of the Block-52's.(the block-52 mounts the AIDEWS internally).
> MLU's are in terms of weapons ability 100% of the block-52's.
> MLU's are in terms of airframe 80% of the block-52s.
> 
> JF-17 is in terms of avionics some 70% capable as a block-52.
> In terms of flight capability it is 80% of the block-52.
> In terms of design sophistication it is 50% of a block-52.



Thank you for clearing that out, General Admiral Air Chief Marshal Oscar.


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## SQ8

Bratva said:


> AIDEWS which is without DFRM evens the play field and puts it at par with MKI, isn't it ?



Apparently DRFM has been cleared


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## Bratva

Oscar said:


> Apparently DRFM has been cleared



https://timemilitary.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/pakistan_06-10.pdf

Official DSCA notification says so. Clearing DRFM without apparent DSCA notification and with consent of senate which blocked it, It would have caused a shyte storm if DRFM was given bypassing senate, won't it


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## Saifullah Sani

*Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) has delivered the last four of 41 upgraded Lockheed Martin F-16A/B Block 15 Fighting Falcon combat aircraft to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), the company said on 2 September.*

TAI upgraded the PAF's F-16s under the Peace Drive II programme, a mid-life upgrade (MLU) project that was agreed in 2009 and began in October 2010.

In May 2010 Lockheed Martin was awarded a USD325 million Foreign Military Sales contract to provide 35 MLU kits for the Block 15 aircraft, as well as 18 MLU kits for F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft. The deal was supplemented in July 2011 by a USD42.3 million contract for a further 10 MLU kits.

According to a 2008 congressional statement by Vice Admiral Jeffrey Wieringa, then director of the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency, *the upgrade involved "Falcon STAR structural upgrade kits ... and MLU avionics upgrade kits".*

VAdm Wieringa described this upgrade as "very similar to that provided to other F-16A/B customers" and as replacing "critical structural components in the F-16 required to return the A/B airframe to a structural life of 8,000 spectrum hours", *while the "MLU avionics upgrade kits are being designed to provide the Pakistan Block 15A/B aircraft with many of the same capabilities as the new Block 52 F-16s that the PAF is procuring".*

According to his statement, the MLU upgrade kits included: Northrop Grumman APG-68(V)9 radars; Embedded GPS/INS (EGI); Link 16 datalink; APX-113 Advanced Identify Friend or Foe (AIFF); Color Cockpit with Color Moving Map; ALQ- 211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) pod; Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) Cockpit and External Lighting; Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod; Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS); reconnaissance pod capability; improved avionics systems; JDAM capability; EGBU capability; AIM-120 AMRAAM capability; and AGM-84 Harpoon capability.

VAdm Wieringa added: "While many of the avionics systems and capabilities are common with the new Block 52s and the MLU, some significant differences remain between the MLU F-16 Block 15s and the new PAF Block 52s: there are no improvements to the Block 15s mission range and loiter time; there are no engine improvements; and there are no improvements to payload capacity."

In February 2014, a senior Pakistani government official confirmed that the PAF was "close to concluding a deal" to purchase 12 F-16As and one F-16B version from the Royal Jordanian Air Force. The PAF confirmed that all 13 were originally Block 15 models that have also undergone MLU programmes. The first five were inducted into the PAF in April 2014 at Mushaf airbase in Sargodha.

TAI completes Pakistan F-16 fleet mid-life upgrade - IHS Jane's 360

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## RAMPAGE

@Munir Sahab kidhar hain ???


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Same old story .... 
......


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## Donatello

So the MLU ones have APG68(v9), only the ex-Jordanian ones are with APG66.


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## nomi007

*F-16 Fighting falcon HUD (Head up Display) details (Highlighted with red arrows).*
*



*

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## fatman17



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## fatman17



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## fatman17



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## fatman17



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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Interesting pictures

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## Interceptor2014

Is PAF in *hot pursuit* of buying more F-16s Block-15s??? and does we have any options...???


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## Shabi1

I think we will only find out when a deal is made, PAF seems to be keeping tight lipped till the last moment.


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## fatman17

Interceptor2014 said:


> Is PAF in *hot pursuit* of buying more F-16s Block-15s??? and does we have any options...???



yes at least 18 F-16C/D's and another 10-12 F-16AM/BM's.

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## Interceptor2014

fatman17 said:


> yes at least 18 F-16C/D's and another 10-12 F-16AM/BM's.


I think better for them to buy the remaining F-16s from Jordan and also buy AH-1 Cobras from Jordan, Turkey, Bahrain, Philipines and Spain; upgrade them with US supplied Kits.

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> yes at least 18 F-16C/D's and another 10-12 F-16AM/BM's.


This indicated the PAF is quite satisfied by the MLU and STAR upgrades carried out by TAI and look to follow the same path with a few more F-16 to arm another squadron or two.
I hope if this is the case we also do get relevant number of MLU kits for the new acquisitions.


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## trident2010

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 48347
> 
> 
> View attachment 48348
> 
> 
> View attachment 48351



Good share. Going to buy 1:72 F-16 kit for my next model

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## nomi007



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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well we should have recieved the next batch of F16 its been a while since we got new planes


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## fatman17

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well we should have recieved the next batch of F16 its been a while since we got new planes



everything has its own time and place sir...


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## Windjammer

*Picture from the ceremony at TAI (Ankara) where upgraded F-16s were handed back to the PAF.
I recognize at least two Block-52 pioneers in the picture.*

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## Blouin

Glad to see Pakistan has upgraded their F-16's. Should be potent aircraft. As to the last 30 pages in this thread, NO to F-16 Block 60 Aircraft. They do not have rights to them, and upgrade should be suffice for Pakistans needs

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## umair86pk

I think there are 3 pioneers in this pic


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## MastanKhan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well we should have recieved the next batch of F16 its been a while since we got new planes



Sir,

We have to place an order for the aircraft first to receive them.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The whole EDA has been quite not fruitful for Pakistan , we have not received a proper new package thru this program since the last time we got something, last time we made an order it was back in 2005 , that feels like so long ago 

Very questionable , I mean we should have received more from this program

Does Pakistan applies for new surplus equipment yearly or every 2 years


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## Kompromat

Windjammer said:


> *Picture from the ceremony at TAI (Ankara) where upgraded F-16s were handed back to the PAF.
> I recognize at least two Block-52 pioneers in the picture.*
> View attachment 70741



Same contingent from the 5th Sq.


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## dexter



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## fatman17

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> The whole EDA has been quite not fruitful for Pakistan , we have not received a proper new package thru this program since the last time we got something, last time we made an order it was back in 2005 , that feels like so long ago
> 
> Very questionable , I mean we should have received more from this program
> 
> Does Pakistan applies for new surplus equipment yearly or every 2 years


 
numerous EDA F-16s were on offer but the PAF in their 'wisdom' rejected almost all a/c and insisted on getting their original 28 peace-gate embargoed aircraft. they were successful in obtaining 14 but the other 14 were not released by the USN. hence the acquisition of the 13 ex-RJAF F-16s.

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## umair86pk

PAF should get some EDA F-16s upgrades them to MLU standards so that they have a fleet of 100+ F-16s as originally planned in 80s.


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## fatman17

umair86pk said:


> PAF should get some EDA F-16s upgrades them to MLU standards so that they have a fleet of 100+ F-16s as originally planned in 80s.


 
yes indeed....


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Suprised even after the programs we joiend we have not yet recovered the loss of 40-60 F16 that got stuck in pipeline and we got wheat in return

Even after program was open we only get 18 or so odd deliveries

Was it not Nawaz that was in power back then also in late 80s

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## 风之南国

Should buy F35。


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## MastanKhan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Suprised even after the programs we joiend we have not yet recovered the loss of 40-60 F16 that got stuck in pipeline and we got wheat in return
> 
> Even after program was open we only get 18 or so odd deliveries
> 
> Was it not Nawaz that was in power back them also in late 80s



Hi,

That was Benazir & the paf heirarchy---it was their doing to pay cash upfront---.

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## Najam Khan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Suprised even after the programs we joiend we have not yet recovered the loss of 40-60 F16 that got stuck in pipeline and we got wheat in return
> 
> Even after program was open we only get 18 or so odd deliveries
> 
> Was it not Nawaz that was in power back them also in late 80s


Its not just the money or political situation that is/was the problem; it was the balance of power in South Asia / power gap between Pakistan and India which super powers wanted to keep.

The current sales of Ex-RJAF F-16 a/c are pretty useful for PAF; instead of going for new 18 Bk52s PAF would prefer going after old airframes; which are generally less expensive and could be modernized to MLU standard in future (IF need arise).

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## HRK

Najam Khan said:


> The current sales of Ex-RJAF F-16 a/c are pretty useful for PAF; instead of going for new 18 Bk52s PAF would prefer going after old airframes; which are generally less expensive and could be modernized to MLU standard in future (IF need arise).




but for the modernization more MLU kits are needed & out of 60 MLU kit we have already utilized 45, so only 15 more are available. 

In my opinion our 13 F-16 (ADF version) acquired from Jordan might not be upgraded to the latest MLU standards; this left us option for *15 *more secondhand F-16 at max.


----------



## karakoram

Oscar said:


> MLU's are in terms of internal avionics 85% of the Block-52's.(the block-52 mounts the AIDEWS internally).
> MLU's are in terms of weapons ability 100% of the block-52's.
> MLU's are in terms of airframe 80% of the block-52s.
> 
> JF-17 is in terms of avionics some 70% capable as a block-52.
> In terms of flight capability it is 80% of the block-52.
> In terms of design sophistication it is 50% of a block-52.


i really like your comparison of block 40 and 52 brother can u compare su 30 MKI with f16 block 52 in term of weapons ability avionics and fighting capability like u compared above i know its been 50% off topic but still require your expert opinion


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## nomi007

is pakistani f-16s are using dual rackets ?


----------



## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Something to be cheerful about F16 vs F15 in dog fight


----------



## DrSomnath999

Hi everyone

certain technical questions i want to ask regariding F16 in PAF .I hope i can get my answer here as it is the dedicated thread regarding F16 so why create another thread to ask such questions

1) Does F16 in PAF have EW suite with DRFM jamming tech ?

2) Does F16 in PAF have provision to carry external mounted IRST pod?

3) Does F16 in PAF have plans for AESA radar in their MLU in future?

4) DOES F16 in PAF have been cleared to carry SD10A BVRAAMS or any prospect to carry foreign based BVRAAM missiles .

5) Does F16 in PAF have any passive based MAWs (Missile warning suite) .

So PLZ be kind enough to spend some time to answer my queries 

thanks in advance


*CHEERS*


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## Donatello

DrSomnath999 said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> certain technical questions i want to ask regariding F16 in PAF .I hope i can get my answer here as it is the dedicated thread regarding F16 so why create another thread to ask such questions
> 
> 1) Does F16 in PAF have EW suite with DRFM jamming tech ?
> 
> 2) Does F16 in PAF have provision to carry external mounted IRST pod?
> 
> 3) Does F16 in PAF have plans for AESA radar in their MLU in future?
> 
> 4) DOES F16 in PAF have been cleared to carry SD10A BVRAAMS or any prospect to carry foreign based BVRAAM missiles .
> 
> 5) Does F16 in PAF have any passive based MAWs (Missile warning suite) .
> 
> So PLZ be kind enough to spend some time to answer my queries
> 
> thanks in advance
> 
> 
> *CHEERS*



1) Yes.
2)Yes, more like a FLIR
3)Not sure, maybe, maybe not. The APG68s are very good.
4)F-16s carry AIM120 AMRAAMs. SD10s are for JF-17s. No need to carry any other BVR missile, when AIM120 can do the job well. There is a reason why the US Navy and US Airforce use it as the standard BVR missile.
5) Yes. 

Used the search function next time.

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## DrSomnath999

Donatello said:


> 1) Yes.
> 2)Yes, more like a FLIR
> 3)Not sure, maybe, maybe not. The APG68s are very good.
> 4)F-16s carry AIM120 AMRAAMs. SD10s are for JF-17s. No need to carry any other BVR missile, when AIM120 can do the job well. There is a reason why the US Navy and US Airforce use it as the standard BVR missile.
> 5) Yes.
> 
> Used the search function next time.



Thanks 

1) Can you plz name the EW system of F16 which has DRFM tech 
Details of the potential sale to Pakistan
but in this article it states it doent have drfm tech

plus latest turkey upgrade of F16 a/b model does it also have DRFM tech

2) but can it used for IR targeting against air borne threat 
does PAF have it Can you post little extra info about it 

3) can you plz give some detail about F16 passive based MAWS ??


*CHEERS*


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## Donatello

DrSomnath999 said:


> Thanks
> 
> 1) Can you plz name the EW system of F16 which has DRFM tech
> Details of the potential sale to Pakistan
> but in this article it states it doent have drfm tech
> 
> plus latest turkey upgrade of F16 a/b model does it also have DRFM tech
> 
> 2) but can it used for IR targeting against air borne threat
> does PAF have it Can you post little extra info about it
> 
> 3) can you plz give some detail about F16 passive based MAWS ??
> 
> 
> *CHEERS*



Please use Google. Pakistani F-16 BLK52+ were the standard blk52s meaning they have all the features that are there. Since we know it has DRFM, it is with Pakistan as well. F-16s don't have IR targeting in aerial capacity, rather more for ground attack/recon.


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## Bratva

DrSomnath999 said:


> Hi everyone
> 
> certain technical questions i want to ask regariding F16 in PAF .I hope i can get my answer here as it is the dedicated thread regarding F16 so why create another thread to ask such questions





> 1) Does F16 in PAF have EW suite with DRFM jamming tech ?



No, PAF F-16's were delivered without DRFM . It was blocked by American senate specifically.



> 2) Does F16 in PAF have provision to carry external mounted IRST pod?



There are no external IRST pods purchased with F-16. DB-110 and Sniper provide such capability for AGM mode, but if you are referring to AAM mode, then no



> 3) Does F16 in PAF have plans for AESA radar in their MLU in future?



Americans won't allow american AESA tech to PAF so no



> 4) DOES F16 in PAF have been cleared to carry SD10A BVRAAMS or any prospect to carry foreign based BVRAAM missiles


.

No and NO



> 5) Does F16 in PAF have any passive based MAWs (Missile warning suite) .



Yes this

AN/AAR-54(V) Missile Warning System (MWS)



DrSomnath999 said:


> So PLZ be kind enough to spend some time to answer my queries
> 
> thanks in advance
> 
> 
> *CHEERS*

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## nomi007

aim-120c


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## Donatello

Bratva said:


> No, PAF F-16's were delivered without DRFM . It was blocked by American senate specifically.



We discussed this in this thread. Apparently DRFM made it through.

@Oscar


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## Bratva

Donatello said:


> We discussed this in this thread. Apparently DRFM made it through.
> 
> @Oscar



I would prefer to believe official word. If something blocked by senate made it through, there would have been a shyte storm at capitol hill.


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## DrSomnath999

Yes 

PAF-f16 block 52 indeed has DRFM jammers
intial variant didnt but later they bought it 

Turkey 's upgraded F16 also has DRFM jammer
SOURCE


> According to his statement, the MLU upgrade kits included: Northrop Grumman APG-68(V)9 radars; Embedded GPS/INS (EGI); Link 16 datalink; APX-113 Advanced Identify Friend or Foe (AIFF); Color Cockpit with Color Moving Map; *ALQ- 211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suite (AIDEWS) pod;* Night Vision Imaging System (NVIS) Cockpit and External Lighting; Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod; Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS); reconnaissance pod capability; improved avionics systems; JDAM capability; EGBU capability; AIM-120 AMRAAM capability; and AGM-84 Harpoon capability.



TAI completes Pakistan F-16 fleet mid-life upgrade - IHS Jane's 360
Detail info about that pod here
it states DRFM jamming
http://www.exelisinc.com/solutions/AIDEWS/Documents/ITT-Exelis-AIDEWS-Brochure.pdf

sadly
I didnt find no where Passive MAWS in F16 
any one with any info on that plz highlight


*CHEERS*


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## DrSomnath999

@Bratva 
thanks for answering 

but do you claim that this deal has been blocked by US senate

ITT Exelis awarded $54 million contract for international electronic warfare defensive system

is this true??

*CHEERS*


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## Bratva

DrSomnath999 said:


> @Bratva
> thanks for answering
> 
> but do you claim that this deal has been blocked by US senate
> 
> ITT Exelis awarded $54 million contract for international electronic warfare defensive system
> 
> is this true??
> 
> *CHEERS*



Not blocked but 36 AIDEWS without DRFM was delivered. But it seems there are further deliveries of AIDEWS which are with DRFM and might have circumvent American senate somehow


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## HRK

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 97282
> *aim-120c*





> *Russian AGAT* has developed a special reduced version 9B-1103M viewfinder, which can fit into the small missiles. Marked as *9B-1103M-150*, the new system has an antenna diameter of 150 mm. Representative AGAT's said that the new radar guidance system developed on the basis of the special requirements for foreign buyers who he refused to name *(most likely China)*
> 
> *http://www.hrvatski-vojnik.hr/hrvatski-vojnik/2332009/zrak_zrak.asp*





> *Agat's 9B-1103M-150 *active radar guided seeker is a repackaged derivative of the *9B-1348/9B-1103M *seeker family originally developed for the R-77 RVV-AE and R-27EA. It has been reduced in diameter to fit the R-73/74 Archer family of missiles, at some expense in acquisition range due to the ~2.5 dB reduction in antenna gain. It weights 8 kg and can acquire a 5 m2 target at 7 nautical miles (Agat).
> 
> Grisha's Missile \xc2\xabShoot-Off\xc2\xbbGrisha's Missile \xc2\xabShoot-Off\xc2\xbb



plz check again this is *Agat's 9B-1103M-150, *not the radar seeker for aim-120c


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## Donatello

Bratva said:


> I would prefer to believe official word. If something blocked by senate made it through, there would have been a shyte storm at capitol hill.



It was discussed here on this thread. You'll have to really dig it up. At first it was believed that DRFM was not allowed, but later it was allowed.


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## Bratva

Donatello said:


> It was discussed here on this thread. You'll have to really dig it up. At first it was believed that DRFM was not allowed, but later it was allowed.



It was a discussion b/w me and oscar. It's a word of mouth that it was allowed. No concrete evidence that it was actually allowed


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## Donatello

Bratva said:


> It was a discussion b/w me and oscar. It's a word of mouth that it was allowed. No concrete evidence that it was actually allowed



Yup i think so. The best bet would be to ask PAF officials. I am not sure why USA would keep back DRFM, when they are offering the latest BLK52s to PAF. DRFM is less of a threat than AIM120 which were exclusively negotiated. Otherwise PAF would have gone for Euro canards altogether. The recent ex-Jordanian F-16s didn't have public approval either. It was passed quietly.


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## VCheng

Donatello said:


> Yup i think so. The best bet would be to ask PAF officials. I am not sure why USA would keep back DRFM, when they are offering the latest BLK52s to PAF. DRFM is less of a threat than AIM120 which were exclusively negotiated. Otherwise PAF would have gone for Euro canards altogether. The recent ex-Jordanian F-16s didn't have public approval either. It was passed quietly.



The ex-Jordanian F-16s were allowed to pass to Pakistan under the President's authority for the WoT granted by Congress as part of the deal for NWA action.


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## Donatello

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> The ex-Jordanian F-16s were allowed to pass to Pakistan under the President's authority for the WoT granted by Congress as part of the deal for NWA action.



Could have been the same for DRFM.


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## VCheng

Donatello said:


> Could have been the same for DRFM.



Yes, that mechanism could have been used as well, but the President chose not to do so, keeping in view the counsel received.


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## fatman17

Bratva said:


> Not blocked but 36 AIDEWS without DRFM was delivered. But it seems there are further deliveries of AIDEWS which are with DRFM and might have circumvent American senate somehow


 
not possible to byepass congress. additionals were also approved. no need for sensationalism.



Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> The ex-Jordanian F-16s were allowed to pass to Pakistan under the President's authority for the WoT granted by Congress as part of the deal for NWA action.


 
no in such cases only state deptt and LM NOC's are required. ex-RJAF jets are / were jordanian property.



Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> The ex-Jordanian F-16s were allowed to pass to Pakistan under the President's authority for the WoT granted by Congress as part of the deal for NWA action.


 
more sensationalism. the US owed us 14 F-16s from the Bush admn area approved by congress.

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## redgriffin

Bratva said:


> I would prefer to believe official word. If something blocked by senate made it through, there would have been a shyte storm at capitol hill.


DRFM came through later. You can search post sale contracts for additions. I remember a DSCA notification posted on Pakdef wrt EW systems. A member over there who works with such tech saw the specs & language & posted that it was DRFM. Others concurrred with him. I also showed the notification to a (now retd) PAF officer I know (an eng) seconded that it was indeed DRFM. This notification was issued in 2011/12 iirc.


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## VCheng

fatman17 said:


> no in such cases only state deptt and LM NOC's are required. ex-RJAF jets are / were jordanian property.
> 
> 
> 
> more sensationalism. the US owed us 14 F-16s from the Bush admn area approved by congress.



Where do you think the State Department gets its approvals _from_, Sir? There is no sensationalism in what I have stated. Pakistan has the ex-RJAF F-16s as part of the package with Presidential approval for aiding the War on Terror.


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## Najam Khan

Mix photos of F-16 MLU, ADF and original airframes.

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## slapshot

Not Pakistani F-16 but amazing demonstration with full throttle, afterburners and flares at sunset

@Windjammer @Oscar @Manticore @Chak Bamu @Imran Khan @MastanKhan @Najam Khan @Bratva @fatman17 @Irfan Baloch @RAMPAGE @Luftwaffe @Armstrong @Stealth @orangzaib @gambit @nomi007 @Zarvan @syedali73 @Devil Soul

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## Donatello

slapshot said:


> Not Pakistani F-16 but amazing demonstration with full throttle, afterburners and flares at sunset



Freaking insane, both the pilot and the falcon.

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## fatman17

*Exelis electronic countermeasures pod certified for installation on Pakistani F-16s*
September 30, 2014 (by Carolyn Camp) - *Exelis has received official certification for its AN/ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System (AIDEWS) to fly on board Pakistani F-16s. *



 





PAF F-16B ADF #14626 has arrived at Mushaf AB on April 27th, 2014. This airframe was acquired second-hand from Jordan with the former serial (#225) still visible on the nose. [PAF photo] 
The AIDEWS pod is currently the only digital radio frequency memory-based electronic warfare (EW) pod certified to F-16 basic aircraft limits, including requirements for lightning protection.

The ALQ-211(V)9 is an external pod variant of the Exelis ALQ-211 family of electronic self-protection systems. After completing the U.S. Air Force Seek Eagle process for aircraft stores certification, the system is now cleared for deployment with F-16A/B block 15 aircraft procured through the Peace Drive 2 Foreign Military Sales program. This certification can be readily extended to F-16 Blocks 25-52, both domestic and international.

To achieve certification, the Exelis team defined, flew and evaluated a series of compatibility flight profile (CFP) missions designed to clear the pod to the F-16’s basic limits. Two stores configurations were evaluated to capture current and future pod configuration requirements without the need for additional CFP missions. Conducted at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, the successful tests were a collaborative effort with Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, Texas, and the U.S. Air Force. 

The AIDEWS pod is a self-contained integrated electronic countermeasures and radar warning receiver system designed to protect the F-16 Fighting Falcon from radio frequency (RF) threats. The pod system offers the flexibility to be installed or removed based on mission requirements, while greatly enhancing pilots’ situational awareness. 

“The AIDEWS pod provides the U.S. and its allies with a modular, highly capable and cost-effective survivability system for a range of fighter aircraft,” said Joe Rambala, vice president and general manager of the Exelis integrated electronic warfare systems business. “Achieving this certification will give more pilots access to the system’s advanced RF protection and the flexibility to meet the evolving RF threat.”

Seek Eagle is the standard aircraft stores certification process for the U.S. Air Force. Through digital modeling, simulation and analysis, ground tests and flight tests, the process ensures that stores such as weapons, carriage and release equipment and external tanks and pods can fly safely on their respective platforms. The certification process includes verifying safe upload and download procedures, flight limits for safe carriage, employment, jettison and safe escape, and ballistic accuracy. 

The AIDEWS electronic self-protection system is produced at the Exelis facility in Clifton, New Jersey, and is part of a suite of EW technologies designed to enable domestic and international customers to perform their critical missions. Leveraging its decades of innovation and experience in the electromagnetic spectrum, Exelis has identified EW as one of the company’s four strategic growth platforms.

_Courtesy of Exelis_

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> *Exelis electronic countermeasures pod certified for installation on Pakistani F-16s*
> September 30, 2014 (by Carolyn Camp) - *Exelis has received official certification for its AN/ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System (AIDEWS) to fly on board Pakistani F-16s. *
> 
> 
> View attachment 102016
> 
> View attachment 102017
> 
> 
> View attachment 102018
> 
> PAF F-16B ADF #14626 has arrived at Mushaf AB on April 27th, 2014. This airframe was acquired second-hand from Jordan with the former serial (#225) still visible on the nose. [PAF photo]
> *The AIDEWS pod is currently the only digital radio frequency memory-based electronic warfare (EW) pod certified to F-16 basic aircraft limits, including requirements for lightning protection.*
> 
> The ALQ-211(V)9 is an external pod variant of the Exelis ALQ-211 family of electronic self-protection systems. After completing the U.S. Air Force Seek Eagle process for aircraft stores certification, the system is now cleared for deployment with F-16A/B block 15 aircraft procured through the Peace Drive 2 Foreign Military Sales program. This certification can be readily extended to F-16 Blocks 25-52, both domestic and international.
> 
> To achieve certification, the Exelis team defined, flew and evaluated a series of compatibility flight profile (CFP) missions designed to clear the pod to the F-16’s basic limits. Two stores configurations were evaluated to capture current and future pod configuration requirements without the need for additional CFP missions. Conducted at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, the successful tests were a collaborative effort with Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, Texas, and the U.S. Air Force.
> 
> The AIDEWS pod is a self-contained integrated electronic countermeasures and radar warning receiver system designed to protect the F-16 Fighting Falcon from radio frequency (RF) threats. The pod system offers the flexibility to be installed or removed based on mission requirements, while greatly enhancing pilots’ situational awareness.
> 
> “The AIDEWS pod provides the U.S. and its allies with a modular, highly capable and cost-effective survivability system for a range of fighter aircraft,” said Joe Rambala, vice president and general manager of the Exelis integrated electronic warfare systems business. “Achieving this certification will give more pilots access to the system’s advanced RF protection and the flexibility to meet the evolving RF threat.”
> 
> Seek Eagle is the standard aircraft stores certification process for the U.S. Air Force. Through digital modeling, simulation and analysis, ground tests and flight tests, the process ensures that stores such as weapons, carriage and release equipment and external tanks and pods can fly safely on their respective platforms. The certification process includes verifying safe upload and download procedures, flight limits for safe carriage, employment, jettison and safe escape, and ballistic accuracy.
> 
> The AIDEWS electronic self-protection system is produced at the Exelis facility in Clifton, New Jersey, and is part of a suite of EW technologies designed to enable domestic and international customers to perform their critical missions. Leveraging its decades of innovation and experience in the electromagnetic spectrum, Exelis has identified EW as one of the company’s four strategic growth platforms.
> 
> _Courtesy of Exelis_



@Bratva 

Mentions DRFM for AIDEWS.

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## DrSomnath999

this is damn funny the very prevoius day i had asked the question whether PAF-F16 had DRFM jammers or not
Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2 | Page 544

LOLLZ the very next day this news was posted 

what an incredible coincidence 

Hmm 
llooks like i got sixth sense Boss 
*CHEERS*

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## Dazzler

DrSomnath999 said:


> this is damn funny the very prevoius day i had asked the question whether PAF-F16 had DRFM jammers or not
> Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2 | Page 544
> 
> LOLLZ the very next day this news was posted
> 
> what an incredible coincidence
> 
> Hmm
> llooks like i got sixth sense Boss
> *CHEERS*



it is wellknown that 211 has DRFM, so does KG300G pod


----------



## DrSomnath999

Dazzler said:


> it is wellknown that *211 has DRFM,* so does KG300G pod



you missed the pun there buddy , i was pointing the timing of official news about 211 pod in use with PAF

but still if it was so well known then why some of your members were not agreeing that 211 which pakistan were getting not having DRFM in the previous posts.

you can check that
Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2 | Page 545

*CHEERS*


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## Bratva

DrSomnath999 said:


> you missed the pun there buddy , i was pointing the timing of official news about 211 pod in use with PAF
> 
> but still if it was so well known then why some of your members were not agreeing that 211 which pakistan were getting not having DRFM in the previous posts.
> 
> you can check that
> Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2 | Page 545
> 
> *CHEERS*



The basis of my initial denial

https://timemilitary.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/pakistan_06-10.pdf


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## fatman17

DrSomnath999 said:


> this is damn funny the very prevoius day i had asked the question whether PAF-F16 had DRFM jammers or not
> Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2 | Page 544
> 
> LOLLZ the very next day this news was posted
> 
> what an incredible coincidence
> 
> Hmm
> llooks like i got sixth sense Boss
> *CHEERS*


 
we aim to serve all and sundry...

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## Dazzler

DrSomnath999 said:


> you missed the pun there buddy , i was pointing the timing of official news about 211 pod in use with PAF
> 
> but still if it was so well known then why some of your members were not agreeing that 211 which pakistan were getting not having DRFM in the previous posts.
> 
> you can check that
> Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2 | Page 545
> 
> *CHEERS*



there was a misconception on drfm inclusion due to some unauthentic news. However, your pun sound more like a wishful thinking at best.


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## DrSomnath999

Dazzler said:


> there was a misconception on drfm inclusion due to some unauthentic news. However, *your pun sound more like a wishful thinking at best*.



whatever pleases you My lord 

Anyways 
I dont have any idea about KG300G pod 's DRFM jamming capability







but does it's jamming mechanism what is stated in the pic if you can read it = DRFM jamming???



*CHEERS*



Bratva said:


> The basis of my initial denial
> 
> https://timemilitary.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/pakistan_06-10.pdf



but the report doesnt mention about 211 POD at all you can check yourselves the pdf file

*CHEERS*


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## Dazzler

DrSomnath999 said:


> whatever pleases you My lord
> 
> Anyways
> I dont have any idea about KG300G pod 's DRFM jamming capability
> 
> View attachment 104234
> 
> 
> but does it's jamming mechanism what is stated in the pic if you can read it = DRFM jamming???



Actually it does, note the third point in the feature list, and this..

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## fatman17

lets get back to F-16 discussions now.....

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well what I would be interested to know is how is Turkey provided a TOT on F16 and high level assembly of parts and software rewrite mean while we have not got new shipment


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## nomi007

*BARI EID BARI PICTURES*
*
  Falcons ready to strike: A F-16 formation equipped with AIM-120 AMRAAM and percision guided munitions; GBU-10 Laser Guided Bomb and GBU-31 JDAM. 
 
The aircraft are also mounted with pack of Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFTs) which provide longer 'on-station time' and enhance range of aircraft.





Falcons evening flight: Falcons formation during evening patrol. 





Falcons with ELINT support: A F-16 formation flying along side of Da-20 Electronic singals INTelligence (ELINT) aircraft from No.24 Sqn. Da-20 Falcon aircraft are fitted with Electronic Warfare equipment for ELINT/Electronic Counter Measures (ECM) role. ELINT aircraft support in battlefield gives Air Force command over the adversary by literally blinding the enemy with radar jamming, communications jamming and radar spoofing.





Db-110 - the eye of Falcons: A F-16 Block52 equipped with DB-110 reconnaissance and long range photography pod. 
DB-110 is the most advanced electro-optical infrared (EO/IR) reconnaissance pod available for the F-16. It provides long-range, high-resolution, stand off imaging capability to support both day and night tactical operations. Images can be transmitted from aircraft to analysts on the ground in real time



*

*
  Falcon and Sun:* A F-16D during an evening sortie.






*  Rising with dawn:A F-16 formation during early morning patrol.*
*



*

* 

  Armed & ready: No.5 MR Sqn's deadly looking F-16 carrying 2000lbs Mk-84 bombs and Sniper ATP mounted on starboard engine inlet pylon.

Sniper ATP provides all weather, day and night advance precision targeting and imaging facility to the operator.





F-16 Block52 starts training: F-16C during a training sortie. The aircraft is assigned to No.5 MR Sqn based at Jacobabad. 





Falcon on top of the world: A F-16C flying at 30,000 ft over Northern Punjab.





ENJOY IT
I MADE ALL MEMBERS EID BIG
*

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## Hurter

F16s puranay ho gye bhai. PAF should consider buy something new in the next budget


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## nomi007

F-16 MLUs with AMRAAM: *A MLU F-16 formation equipped with AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles.*
*The MLU program has added significant combat capabilities and over 20 years of service life to Pakistani Falcons.






 Griffins & horizon: No.9 Sqn F-16 'Griffins' going vetical.

No.9 MR Sqn has recently updated all its aircraft to MLU standard and is located at PAF Base Mushaf.





*

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## nomi007



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## MastanKhan

Junaid B said:


> F16s puranay ho gye bhai. PAF should consider buy something new in the next budget




Sir,

Eid mubarik to you---and a million praises for a brilliant post.


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## Hurter

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Eid mubarik to you---and a million praises for a brilliant post.



I do the same thing too... But upgrading fleet is a different thing ! 

Eid Mubarik u too


----------



## Dr. Strangelove

Junaid B said:


> F16s puranay ho gye bhai. PAF should consider buy something new in the next budget


while we are at it why not include a deathstar and a dozen star destroyers to the list

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## Windjammer



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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 116028



somebody inside told that there was a hot scramble by P.a.f. on wednesday against iaf .. do u know anything ?


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## Windjammer

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> somebody inside told that there was a hot scramble by P.a.f. on wednesday against iaf .. do u know anything ?


Everyone has been on Eid holidays for the last few days..... will find out.


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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 116028



What is that round object seen just above the landing gear?

I have seen that quite a few times on some F-16's.

I don't believe that's the RWR or anything.


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## The SC

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well what I would be interested to know is how is Turkey provided a TOT on F16 and high level assembly of parts and software rewrite mean while we have not got new shipment


NATO member privileges.


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Windjammer said:


> Everyone has been on Eid holidays for the last few days..... will find out.


allright bro. and yeah there's 1 more thing : Ur patriotic attitude is impressive & an example 4 our other pdf members ...

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## Imran Khan

Fulcrum15 said:


> What is that round object seen just above the landing gear?
> 
> I have seen that quite a few times on some F-16's.
> 
> I don't believe that's the RWR or anything.







Close-up of the Carrapace passive RWR system installed on Belgian AF F-16s. The system consists of 2 receivers, mounted in the parachute compartiment and under the intake

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## Mugwop

* Exelis has received official certification for its AN/ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System (AIDEWS) to fly on board Pakistani F-16s.*





The AIDEWS pod is currently the only digital radio frequency memory-based electronic warfare (EW) pod certified to F-16 basic aircraft limits, including requirements for lightning protection.

The ALQ-211(V)9 is an external pod variant of the Exelis ALQ-211 family of electronic self-protection systems. After completing the U.S. Air Force Seek Eagle process for aircraft stores certification, the system is now cleared for deployment with F-16A/B block 15 aircraft procured through the Peace Drive 2 Foreign Military Sales program. This certification can be readily extended to F-16 Blocks 25-52, both domestic and international.

To achieve certification, the Exelis team defined, flew and evaluated a series of compatibility flight profile (CFP) missions designed to clear the pod to the F-16’s basic limits. Two stores configurations were evaluated to capture current and future pod configuration requirements without the need for additional CFP missions. Conducted at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, the successful tests were a collaborative effort with Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, Texas, and the U.S. Air Force. 

The AIDEWS pod is a self-contained integrated electronic countermeasures and radar warning receiver system designed to protect the F-16 Fighting Falcon from radio frequency (RF) threats. The pod system offers the flexibility to be installed or removed based on mission requirements, while greatly enhancing pilots’ situational awareness. 

“The AIDEWS pod provides the U.S. and its allies with a modular, highly capable and cost-effective survivability system for a range of fighter aircraft,” said Joe Rambala, vice president and general manager of the Exelis integrated electronic warfare systems business. “Achieving this certification will give more pilots access to the system’s advanced RF protection and the flexibility to meet the evolving RF threat.”

Seek Eagle is the standard aircraft stores certification process for the U.S. Air Force. Through digital modeling, simulation and analysis, ground tests and flight tests, the process ensures that stores such as weapons, carriage and release equipment and external tanks and pods can fly safely on their respective platforms. The certification process includes verifying safe upload and download procedures, flight limits for safe carriage, employment, jettison and safe escape, and ballistic accuracy. 

The AIDEWS electronic self-protection system is produced at the Exelis facility in Clifton, New Jersey, and is part of a suite of EW technologies designed to enable domestic and international customers to perform their critical missions. Leveraging its decades of innovation and experience in the electromagnetic spectrum, Exelis has identified EW as one of the company’s four strategic growth platforms.

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## fatman17

Mugwop said:


> * Exelis has received official certification for its AN/ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare System (AIDEWS) to fly on board Pakistani F-16s.*
> 
> View attachment 121733
> 
> The AIDEWS pod is currently the only digital radio frequency memory-based electronic warfare (EW) pod certified to F-16 basic aircraft limits, including requirements for lightning protection.
> 
> The ALQ-211(V)9 is an external pod variant of the Exelis ALQ-211 family of electronic self-protection systems. After completing the U.S. Air Force Seek Eagle process for aircraft stores certification, the system is now cleared for deployment with F-16A/B block 15 aircraft procured through the Peace Drive 2 Foreign Military Sales program. This certification can be readily extended to F-16 Blocks 25-52, both domestic and international.
> 
> To achieve certification, the Exelis team defined, flew and evaluated a series of compatibility flight profile (CFP) missions designed to clear the pod to the F-16’s basic limits. Two stores configurations were evaluated to capture current and future pod configuration requirements without the need for additional CFP missions. Conducted at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, the successful tests were a collaborative effort with Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, Fort Worth, Texas, and the U.S. Air Force.
> 
> The AIDEWS pod is a self-contained integrated electronic countermeasures and radar warning receiver system designed to protect the F-16 Fighting Falcon from radio frequency (RF) threats. The pod system offers the flexibility to be installed or removed based on mission requirements, while greatly enhancing pilots’ situational awareness.
> 
> “The AIDEWS pod provides the U.S. and its allies with a modular, highly capable and cost-effective survivability system for a range of fighter aircraft,” said Joe Rambala, vice president and general manager of the Exelis integrated electronic warfare systems business. “Achieving this certification will give more pilots access to the system’s advanced RF protection and the flexibility to meet the evolving RF threat.”
> 
> Seek Eagle is the standard aircraft stores certification process for the U.S. Air Force. Through digital modeling, simulation and analysis, ground tests and flight tests, the process ensures that stores such as weapons, carriage and release equipment and external tanks and pods can fly safely on their respective platforms. The certification process includes verifying safe upload and download procedures, flight limits for safe carriage, employment, jettison and safe escape, and ballistic accuracy.
> 
> The AIDEWS electronic self-protection system is produced at the Exelis facility in Clifton, New Jersey, and is part of a suite of EW technologies designed to enable domestic and international customers to perform their critical missions. Leveraging its decades of innovation and experience in the electromagnetic spectrum, Exelis has identified EW as one of the company’s four strategic growth platforms.


 
posted.....

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## Munir



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## Imran Khan

Munir said:


> View attachment 125805


munir shahab apko turkey trip ab tak bhut yaad ata hai shayed


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## Munir

Imran Khan said:


> munir shahab apko turkey trip ab tak bhut yaad ata hai shayed



I have tons of unpublished pics. And now one can share HD format so... Turkey was the best show ever. Seen everything up close and almost all best demo teams. Not only up in the air but afterwards party... Only more could be flying in PAF plane... Last article about PAF was made by a dutch guy only few hours drive from me... Got to meet him.

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## Donatello

Munir said:


> I have tons of unpublished pics. And now one can share HD format so... Turkey was the best show ever. Seen everything up close and almost all best demo teams. Not only up in the air but afterwards party... Only more could be flying in PAF plane... Last article about PAF was made by a dutch guy only few hours drive from me... Got to meet him.



Why don't you post it here? Would love to see the pictures/videos!


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## nomi007



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## N/A

Hi sorry to be a little off topic but my goal is to protect and serve Pakistan as a officer in the Pakistan air force as a GDP. Currently i live and study in the United States. I lived in the USA all my live, i am a pakistani citizen. I am currently in high school, my grades are above average, my grades are 84-95 i take many advance classes. I am part of many sports teams and i am currently a class officer. After i gradaute high school i will be getting my degree from a American College in Aerospace Engineering. After that what will i have to do to become a GDP as a officer in the Pakistan Air Force.


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## nomi007

*Here are some detailed pictures of individual backlit panel assemblies in our F-16 simulator






























*

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## IrbiS

All Pakistani A/B models have been upgraded and handed over now

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## fatman17

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> All Pakistani A/B models have been upgraded and handed over now


 
thanks we are aware.....

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> All Pakistani A/B models have been upgraded and handed over now



Ready to defend nation in time of war


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## Manticore

some months old

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## IrbiS

1. PAF's first F-16 and standing beside it is Flt. Lt. Shahid Sikander Khan, who was shot down accidentally.




2.PAF F-16B block 15 #85609 from the 38th TFW is parked on the tarmac with an Altis pod on the intake and an LGB under the wing station. The aircraft was lost December 18th, 1986

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## Donatello

Manticore said:


>



Is that the DB110 pod, on the left, yellow strap?


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## IrbiS

Donatello said:


> Is that the DB110 pod, on the left, yellow strap?


95% sure from this angle yes


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## Manticore

Donatello said:


> Is that the DB110 pod, on the left, yellow strap?


Sniper ATP , DB-110 Recce pod


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## Bratva

The Exelis-built AN/ALQ-211(V)9 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare system (AIDEWS) has been cleared to fly on board the Pakistan Air Force's F-16 fighter aircraft.

The clearance follows completion of the US Air Force's (USAF) Seek Eagle process for aircraft stores certification, which included a series of compatibility flight profile (CFP) missions designed to clear the pod to the F-16's basic limits.

Working in collaboration with the USAF and Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, the Exelis team evaluated two stores configurations at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, to capture current and future pod configuration requirements without the need for additional CFP missions.

Exelis integrated electronic warfare systems business vice-president and general manager Joe Rambala said: "The AIDEWS pod provides the US and its allies with a modular, highly capable and cost-effective survivability system for a range of fighter aircraft.

"Achieving this certification will give more pilots access to the system's advanced RF protection and the flexibility to meet the evolving RF threat."

"Achieving this certification will give more pilots access to the system's advanced RF protection."

*Currently limited to F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft procured by PAF through the Peace Drive 2 foreign military sales programme*, the certification can be readily extended to both domestic and foreign F-16 Blocks 25 to 52 fighters.


Exelis’ AN/ALQ-211(V)9 pod cleared for installation on Pakistani F-16 fighters - Airforce Technology


@Oscar @Horus Isn't this odd?

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## IrbiS

Bratva said:


> The Exelis-built AN/ALQ-211(V)9 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare system (AIDEWS) has been cleared to fly on board the Pakistan Air Force's F-16 fighter aircraft.
> 
> The clearance follows completion of the US Air Force's (USAF) Seek Eagle process for aircraft stores certification, which included a series of compatibility flight profile (CFP) missions designed to clear the pod to the F-16's basic limits.
> 
> Working in collaboration with the USAF and Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, the Exelis team evaluated two stores configurations at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, to capture current and future pod configuration requirements without the need for additional CFP missions.
> 
> Exelis integrated electronic warfare systems business vice-president and general manager Joe Rambala said: "The AIDEWS pod provides the US and its allies with a modular, highly capable and cost-effective survivability system for a range of fighter aircraft.
> 
> "Achieving this certification will give more pilots access to the system's advanced RF protection and the flexibility to meet the evolving RF threat."
> 
> "Achieving this certification will give more pilots access to the system's advanced RF protection."
> 
> *Currently limited to F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft procured by PAF through the Peace Drive 2 foreign military sales programme*, the certification can be readily extended to both domestic and foreign F-16 Blocks 25 to 52 fighters.
> 
> 
> Exelis’ AN/ALQ-211(V)9 pod cleared for installation on Pakistani F-16 fighters - Airforce Technology
> 
> 
> @Oscar @Horus Isn't this strange?


Pakistan 'll get AN/ALQ-211(V)9 podded version which can be integrated into existing systems.My personal thoughts are that PAF may carry 'em on AN/ALQ-131 pods.


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## Kompromat

Bratva said:


> The Exelis-built AN/ALQ-211(V)9 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare system (AIDEWS) has been cleared to fly on board the Pakistan Air Force's F-16 fighter aircraft.
> 
> The clearance follows completion of the US Air Force's (USAF) Seek Eagle process for aircraft stores certification, which included a series of compatibility flight profile (CFP) missions designed to clear the pod to the F-16's basic limits.
> 
> Working in collaboration with the USAF and Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, the Exelis team evaluated two stores configurations at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, to capture current and future pod configuration requirements without the need for additional CFP missions.
> 
> Exelis integrated electronic warfare systems business vice-president and general manager Joe Rambala said: "The AIDEWS pod provides the US and its allies with a modular, highly capable and cost-effective survivability system for a range of fighter aircraft.
> 
> "Achieving this certification will give more pilots access to the system's advanced RF protection and the flexibility to meet the evolving RF threat."
> 
> "Achieving this certification will give more pilots access to the system's advanced RF protection."
> 
> *Currently limited to F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft procured by PAF through the Peace Drive 2 foreign military sales programme*, the certification can be readily extended to both domestic and foreign F-16 Blocks 25 to 52 fighters.
> 
> 
> Exelis’ AN/ALQ-211(V)9 pod cleared for installation on Pakistani F-16 fighters - Airforce Technology
> 
> 
> @Oscar @Horus Isn't this odd?




That was the primary motive since Block-52s have an internal AIDEWS ?


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## IrbiS

Horus said:


> That was the primary motive since Block-52s have an internal AIDEWS ?


Yes they have integrated systems.


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## Dazzler

Bratva said:


> The Exelis-built AN/ALQ-211(V)9 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare system (AIDEWS) has been cleared to fly on board the Pakistan Air Force's F-16 fighter aircraft.
> 
> The clearance follows completion of the US Air Force's (USAF) Seek Eagle process for aircraft stores certification, which included a series of compatibility flight profile (CFP) missions designed to clear the pod to the F-16's basic limits.
> 
> Working in collaboration with the USAF and Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company, the Exelis team evaluated two stores configurations at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, to capture current and future pod configuration requirements without the need for additional CFP missions.
> 
> Exelis integrated electronic warfare systems business vice-president and general manager Joe Rambala said: "The AIDEWS pod provides the US and its allies with a modular, highly capable and cost-effective survivability system for a range of fighter aircraft.
> 
> "Achieving this certification will give more pilots access to the system's advanced RF protection and the flexibility to meet the evolving RF threat."
> 
> "Achieving this certification will give more pilots access to the system's advanced RF protection."
> 
> *Currently limited to F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft procured by PAF through the Peace Drive 2 foreign military sales programme*, the certification can be readily extended to both domestic and foreign F-16 Blocks 25 to 52 fighters.
> 
> 
> Exelis’ AN/ALQ-211(V)9 pod cleared for installation on Pakistani F-16 fighters - Airforce Technology
> 
> 
> @Oscar @Horus Isn't this odd?


it means now V9 config is cleared for other mlu(s) too since pakistani f-16s (mlu) are first application for podded version of alq-211 aidews, V9 version. There were also lack of internal space (spine-less unlike blk 52s with alot of spine).

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## Donatello

Dazzler said:


> it means now V9 config is cleared for other mlu(s) too since pakistani f-16s (mlu) are first application for podded version of alq-211 aidews, V9 version. There were also lack of internal space (spine-less unlike blk 52s with alot of spine).


Well, the spine has a lot more than AIDEWs


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## Dazzler

Donatello said:


> Well, the spine has a lot more than AIDEWs


true that, but 211 is there too, somewhere


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## Bratva

Dazzler said:


> it means now V9 config is cleared for other mlu(s) too since pakistani f-16s (mlu) are first application for podded version of alq-211 aidews, V9 version. There were also lack of internal space (spine-less unlike blk 52s with alot of spine).



The odd part is why didn't they certified it on F-16 single seater blk 52 along all the mlu's ?



Horus said:


> That was the primary motive since Block-52s have an internal AIDEWS ?



D version might have it in spine but I don't think C version would have internal AIDEWS in it


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## Dazzler

Bratva said:


> The odd part is why didn't they certified it on F-16 single seater blk 52 along all the mlu's ?
> 
> 
> 
> D version might have it in spine but I don't think C version would have internal AIDEWS in it



blk 52 C also have it internally, dual seat house spine, single seat have ample room, minus second cockpit and pilot.

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## Kompromat

Bratva said:


> The odd part is why didn't they certified it on F-16 single seater blk 52 along all the mlu's ?
> 
> D version might have it in spine but I don't think C version would have internal AIDEWS in it



Both have it.

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## IrbiS

*F-16 ADF
Air Defense Fighter
History*
In October 1986, the USAF announced that operational block 15 F-16A/B aircraft would be converted to air defense fighters for the Air National Guard, and would take over the fighter interception mission, providing the primary defense of North America against bombers and cruise missiles.







F-16s ADF can be identified by the searchlight, tail fin bulges, and bird slicers antenna's. Since the ADF testbed is a Bravo, it doesn't have the bulges, and the spotlight is on the port side. For some reason, it hasn't received the bird slicers, so luckily this one has ADF painted on its tail. (USAF photo)
The first F-16A ADF conversion was completed in February 1989, while a contract was placed for kits to update and modify a total of 270 F-16A/B's at the Ogden Air Logistics Center in Utah. The Block 15 airframes used for the ADF program were all meant to be upgraded to block 15OCU standard, and both programs ran in conjunction. Aircraft entering the Ogden ALC for ADF upgrade also received the Block 15OCU avionics installation. The net result is that all ADF aircraft are Block 15OCU airframes. The last ADF left Ogden in 1992.

*Structure & Avionics*
Modifications included Bendix King (now Allied Signal) AN/ARC-200HF/SSB radios with Have Quick II Secure Speech Module and the Teledyne/E Systems Mk.XII Advanced IFF system (APX-109). The APG-66 radar was modified (designated APG-66A) to provide look down/shoot-down capability, enhanced small target detection, and CW (Continuous Wave) illumination for AIM-7 guidance.

A 150,000 candlepower night identification spotlight was installed on the port side of the nose (below and in front of the cockpit) to aid in the identification of nighttime intruders. The aircraft were equipped to carry 600 (US) gallon (2,271 liter) external drop tanks, and to carry 6 BVR missiles such as the AIM-7 Sparrow or AIM-120 AMRAAM.

*Modifications & Upgrades*



The bird slicers are obvious on this F-16A ADF lining up on a tanker (USAF photo)
The ADF aircraft can be distinguished from "standard" F-16A/B's by several external identifying features, such as long and thin horizontal bulges on the base of the vertical tail (only A-models), plus a set of four blade antenna, nicknamed _"bird-slicer"_, carried just forward of the canopy (as part of the IFF system).

The bulges are caused by the relocation of the Bendix-King AN/ARC-200 high frequency single-sideband radio to the leading edge of the fin. This in turn caused the flight control accumulators, which were installed one over the other, to be relocated to either side of the tail fin. The bulges were installed to provide sufficient room for these accumulators. Note that, since the Bravo-model ADF's do not have the Bendix HF radio, they also don't have the bulges.


*Production*
All ADF F-16s are modified airframes. Existing Block 15 models where converted to the Block 15OCU upgrade and to ADF standard at once. In total, 271 airframes, consisting in 246 A-models and 25 B-models have been converted between 1989 and 1992. Minor differences exist between the A-model and B-model as described earlier.



Because of the fall of the Berlin wall in 1989 and the opening of relationships between West and East, the program had lost its major reason of existence, being the protection of the North American continent against Russian bombers flying over the North Pole. Although the program was finished and all aircraft stayed into service with the Air National Guard detachments, they were the first to be mothballed at AMARC with the first major restructuration of the USAF. This proces started already in 1994. Currently only 2 ANG squadrons still fly the type, with them probably being converted in the near future.

A lot of these ADF F-16s are a very cheap and quite modern asset for allied countries. These aircraft have relatively low flying hours on their airframes. A lot of them are sold on the second-hand market. Jordan was the first to receive 12 A-models and 4-models under the _Peace Falcon_ program in 1997. Recently, Thailand has acquired another batch of 15 A-models and 1 B-model under the _Peace Naresuan IV_ program. Also the Italian Air Force is receiving 26 A-models and 4 B-models under a 5-year (extendable to 10 years) lease agreement called _Peace Caesar_.

*Specifications*
*Engine:* One Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 turbofan, rated at 14,590 lb.s.t. dry and 23,770 lb.s.t. with afterburning.

*Maximum speed:* Mach 2.05 at 40,000 feet. Service ceiling 55,000 feet. Maximum range 2400 miles. Initial climb rate 62,000 feet per minute.

*Dimensions:* wingspan 32 feet 9 1/2 inches, length 49 feet 3 1/2 inches, height 16 feet 8 1/2 inches, wing area 300 square feet.

*Weights:* 16,285 pounds empty, 25,281 pounds combat, 37,500 pounds maximum takeoff.

F-16 Versions - F-16 ADF


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## Bratva

As per recent PAC promotional video, PAC not only overhauls F-100 series engine but has attain the capability of upgrading 
*F100-PW-200 engines * to *F100-PW-220 *inhouse and all Block 15 are using 220 type engine

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## Stealth



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## IrbiS

Bratva said:


> As per recent PAC promotional video, PAC not only overhauls F-100 series engine but has attain the capability of upgrading
> *F100-PW-200 engines * to *F100-PW-220 *inhouse and all Block 15 are using 220 type engine


They 've been doing it for long time.Which video are you talking about the one maybe named 'PAC KAMRA' 33 min. long on youtube?


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## IrbiS

Bratva said:


> As per recent PAC promotional video, PAC not only overhauls F-100 series engine but has attain the capability of upgrading
> *F100-PW-200 engines * to *F100-PW-220 *inhouse and all Block 15 are using 220 type engine





Umair Khan Niazi said:


> They 've been doing it for long time.Which video are you talking about the one maybe named 'PAC KAMRA' 33 min. long on youtube?


Yes it's the same one from which you uploaded pics on JF thread.I downloaded it in february.


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## dexter

*ACM Mushaf Ali Mir (Shaheed), AVM Saleem Akhtar (Shaheed) and President Musharraf standing with Base & Squadron Commanders of F-16 and CCS Mirage/F-7 squadrons during border-stand-off with India in 2002 planned by PAF under name 'Operational Sentinel'.The aircraft in the background are armed with "live rounds"
During the Operational Sentinel, which lasted from December 2001 to end October 2002, PAF remained high alert and distributed its fighting elements across various Forward Operating Air Bases (FOBs) and air fields and conducted Combat Air Patrol (CAP) missions across Pakistan.*

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## fatman17

*27 Oct 1976 *
Iran orders 160 F-16s and takes an option on 140 more (Peace Zebra). The order was cancelled in 1979 with the fall of the Shah.

wow 300 F-16s....what would have been.

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## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> *27 Oct 1976 *
> Iran orders 160 F-16s and takes an option on 140 more (Peace Zebra). The order was cancelled in 1979 with the fall of the Shah.
> 
> wow 300 F-16s....what would have been.


Instead the jews got them.Ground support equipment delivered to Iran was later sold to Pakistan.

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## syedali73

fatman17 said:


> *27 Oct 1976 *
> Iran orders 160 F-16s and takes an option on 140 more (Peace Zebra). The order was cancelled in 1979 with the fall of the Shah.
> 
> wow 300 F-16s....what would have been.


Pakistan would have been crushed between a rock and a hard place. Few people realize that demise of Shah actually helped Pakistan in several ways otherwise Shah was hugely ambitious.

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## umair86pk

Pics are of delivery to egyption airforce


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## IrbiS

umair86pk said:


> Pics are of delivery to egyption airforce


Sorry, my mistake as took these from video and were together, I didn't notice egyptian finflash


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## Quwa

syedali73 said:


> Pakistan would have been crushed between a rock and a hard place. Few people realize that demise of Shah actually helped Pakistan in several ways otherwise Shah was hugely ambitious.


It wouldn't have mattered. Iran always had regional ambitions, it still does, but it pursues them in different ways (as we've seen in Iraq and Syria). That said, the issue actually isn't Iran, the real threat is from within Pakistan. Because our leaders have no care for ideas such as true independence or power projection, we will forever remain in a reactionary mode, as opposed to proactive.

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## IrbiS

syedali73 said:


> Pakistan would have been crushed between a rock and a hard place. Few people realize that demise of Shah actually helped Pakistan in several ways otherwise Shah was hugely ambitious.


It was same shah who was filling our fighters' tanks in 65


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## krash

syedali73 said:


> Pakistan would have been crushed between a rock and a hard place. Few people realize that demise of Shah actually helped Pakistan in several ways otherwise Shah was hugely ambitious.



Unlikely. After the settlement of the border disputes with Iran the Shah became very favourable to Pakistan. The two countries enjoyed a really good relationship during the time of the Shah.

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## Rahil khan

syedali73 said:


> Pakistan would have been crushed between a rock and a hard place. Few people realize that demise of Shah actually helped Pakistan in several ways otherwise Shah was hugely ambitious.



How ?? If i am not wrong, Pakistan had very good bilateral relations with Iran during the Shah's regime. Thanks to revolution in Iran and bad governance and mismanagement in Pakistan that people are suffering in both countries.

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## niaz

Rahil khan said:


> How ?? If i am not wrong, Pakistan had very good bilateral relations with Iran during the Shah's regime. Thanks to revolution in Iran and bad governance and mismanagement in Pakistan that people are suffering in both countries.



In my humble opinion our good relations with Iran were primarily because both Iran & Pakistan were firmly in the US camp whereas India was non-aligned with strong pro-Russian leaning.

Pak-Iran relations worsened after the fall of the Shah precisely because Pakistan was perceived as US stooge by the revolutionary regime for whom US was the biggest Satan (Taghoot e buzarg). Currently India & Iran are on far more friendly terms than Pakistan & Iran. Main reason for this is the rise of anti-Shia sentiment in Pakistan financed by the Saudis. To this day US & Saudi consider Iran a bigger threat than ISIS and Al-Qaida.

Our problem is that majority of Pakistanis including the policy maker's thinking is clouded with considerations other than national interest. With the religious bias; if you have an extremist/Wahhabi leaning, you either support or condone killing of innocent Hazaras, Ahmadis and other non-Muslim Pakistanis. If you are a Shia you follow Iranian Ayatollah blindly and kill Sunni ulema.

Those with the ethnic bias only look towards their narrow minded ethnic interests rather than what is good for Pakistan, we have the PPP & MQM’s example in Sind. In Baluchistan Punjabi labourers are being pulled down from the buses and being killed!!!
Besides, pray tell me is there any reason why no political party wants to hold local bodies’ elections? Even the PTI have no such plans for KPK!

Our relations with Afghanistan have always been topsy turvy. As if problems with Narendar Modi’s India were not enough, we have had cross border firing along our western border as well! Would anyone in this right mind call this good foreign policy.
But who cares about rantings of a liberal Pakistani like me, extremist lovers such as the bigot Munawwar Hassan rule the roost here and even a Nobel Peace Laureate such as poor Malala is being demonized by the Taliban loving section of Pakistan society.

Regret to say that relations with Iran are not going to improve until such time that LEJ & SSP stop target killing innocent Shia citizens of Pakistan.

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## xplayer

*The Netherlands buy 37 F-35 jets to replace F-16s.*
I think PAF want to talk with Netherland Goverment to buy F-16s.

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## Jungibaaz

xplayer said:


> *The Netherlands buy 37 F-35 jets to replace F-16s.*
> I think PAF want to talk with Netherland Goverment to buy F-16s.



Many opportunities will arise like this in the next 10 years. And PAF is still hungry for F-16s.

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## fatman17

Jungibaaz said:


> Many opportunities will arise like this in the next 10 years. And PAF is still hungry for F-16s.


 
European F-16s have too many flying hours on them. PAF has tried already with Belgium, Norway without any luck.

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## araz

fatman17 said:


> European F-16s have too many flying hours on them. PAF has tried already with Belgium, Norway without any luck.


To add to this according to Munir the Dutch F16s have been used pretty hard and the corrosion on account of being near sea has not helped either. Is the any chance we might buy the rest of the Jordanian fleet of F-16s.?
Araz

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## syedali73

fatman17 said:


> European F-16s have too many flying hours on them. PAF has tried already with Belgium, Norway without any luck.


Please eleborate 'without any luck'? PAF was not satisfied with the state of the airplanes or Belgium/Norway refused? If it is flying hours, MLU wont help?

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## Najam Khan

araz said:


> To add to this according to Munir the Dutch F16s have been used pretty hard and the corrosion on account of being near sea has not helped either. *Is the any chance we might buy the rest of the Jordanian fleet of F-16s.?*
> Araz


As front line fighters may be by end of 2015; If some savings are done after end of Operation Zarb-e-Azb and Army gives their budget heads for such purchase.

As spares NO, sufficient stock and LRUs are available.

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## Najam Khan

syedali73 said:


> Please eleborate 'without any luck'? PAF was not satisfied with the state of the airplanes or Belgium/Norway refused? If it is flying hours, MLU wont help?


The airplanes used by Belgium/Norway were not in good condition. Their QRA role in severe weather conditions is not healthy for long-life of aircraft. Routine repairs/maintenance is needed which in our case needs US support (read consent) and $$$. So overall service of even 5 years of such air frames will be way too expensive for us, not to mention the delay in operations.

F-16A Serial # 92-730; the last F-16A OCU delivered to PAF in Dec 2005.

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## Donatello

Najam Khan said:


> As front line fighters may be by end of 2015; If some savings are done after end of Operation Zarb-e-Azb and Army gives their budget heads for such purchase.
> 
> As spares NO, sufficient stock and LRUs are available.



Were the European F-16s refused because of their health, or other, diplomatic reasons?

Any talks of more EDAs from USA?

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## fatman17

syedali73 said:


> Please eleborate 'without any luck'? PAF was not satisfied with the state of the airplanes or Belgium/Norway refused? If it is flying hours, MLU wont help?


 
little bit of both i guess...

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## nomi007

*Missing Man formation*
* PAF*
*



*

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## MastanKhan

syedali73 said:


> Please eleborate 'without any luck'? PAF was not satisfied with the state of the airplanes or Belgium/Norway refused? If it is flying hours, MLU wont help?



Hi,

There may possibly be problems with oxidation ---- sea salt damage.

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## truthseeker2010

nomi007 said:


> *Missing Man formation*
> * PAF*
> *
> View attachment 142173
> *



i don't think its a missing man formation.... rather a flypast of recent conversion of 19 sqn from f-7 to f-16


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## truthseeker2010

Najam Khan said:


> As front line fighters may be by end of 2015; If some savings are done after end of Operation Zarb-e-Azb and Army gives their budget heads for such purchase.
> 
> As spares NO, sufficient stock and LRUs are available.



sir any idea of cost of recent f-16 purchase by paf or used f-16?


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## Max Pain

truthseeker2010 said:


> i don't think its a missing man formation.... rather a flypast of recent conversion of 19 sqn from f-7 to f-16


 nah I saw the video, the F-7 slowly leaves those 3 F-16's and thats exactly how the Missing Man Formation works.

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## truthseeker2010

Max Pain said:


> nah I saw the video, the F-7 slowly leaves those 3 F-16's and thats exactly how the Missing Man Formation works.



do u know the occasion?, because i don't think there was any death of pilot or AF person recently...


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## Max Pain

truthseeker2010 said:


> do u know the occasion?, because i don't think there was any death of pilot or AF person recently...



missing man formation as rightly stated by you is usually made when a pilot departs,
however that wasnt the case in here, this picture is from the ceremony of inauguration of used Jordanian F-16 ADF in Pakistan.The F-7 leaving the 3 F-16 signified the end of services of F-7 to that squadron.

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## umair86pk

araz said:


> To add to this according to Munir the Dutch F16s have been used pretty hard and the corrosion on account of being near sea has not helped either. Is the any chance we might buy the rest of the Jordanian fleet of F-16s.?
> Araz


Most of the Dutch F-16s ended up in Chile's FACH.

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## nomi007



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## dexter

F-16A MLU - a formidable machine with capability to operate with state-of-the-art electronics and weapons such as JDAM, JHMCS, AIM120 AMRAAM and Sniper/AN-ALQ211 electronic pods.

[Photo: F-16A MLU 84708 undergoing MLU testing at TAI, Turkey]

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## salman-1

dexter said:


> View attachment 146199
> 
> 
> F-16A MLU - a formidable machine with capability to operate with state-of-the-art electronics and weapons such as JDAM, JHMCS, AIM120 AMRAAM and Sniper/AN-ALQ211 electronic pods.
> 
> [Photo: F-16A MLU 84708 undergoing MLU testing at TAI, Turkey]


Where does these retired planes go? to another squadron or new planes are added to the existing inventory

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## Thorough Pro

Do we have a boneyard for PAF retired planes? if yes where? if no, what happens to all the retired planes

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## Max Pain

Thorough Pro said:


> Do we have a boneyard for PAF retired planes? if yes where? if no, what happens to all the retired planes



I think they're probably sold to Sri Lanka or Bangladesh.


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## Thorough Pro

Not always, Remember in Zia's times they were given to Bangladesh for Free.



Max Pain said:


> I think they're probably sold to Sri Lanka or Bangladesh.


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## Max Pain

Thorough Pro said:


> Not always, Remember in Zia's times they were given to Bangladesh for Free.



They might give some now as well.who knows.


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## fatman17

Thorough Pro said:


> Do we have a boneyard for PAF retired planes? if yes where? if no, what happens to all the retired planes


 
boneyards at Masroor and Faisal......google it.

there could be others also

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## Arsalan

What is the latest about the Jordanian F16 that we got? are they going straight for MLU as well? in fact, will there be an MLU program for that? we do have the kits i assume and so we may send these to Turkey as well to upgrade these and bring these to the same level/standard as rest of our fleet. Where do the total number stands now?


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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> What is the latest about the Jordanian F16 that we got? are they going straight for MLU as well? in fact, will there be an MLU program for that? we do have the kits i assume and so we may send these to Turkey as well to upgrade these and bring these to the same level/standard as rest of our fleet. Where do the total number stands now?


 
already MLU-ed i think when supplied by US to RJAF

PAF ordered 60 kits.....43 have been used up leaving 17. so potentially these 13 ADF could also undergo a full MLU

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## Najam Khan

Donatello said:


> Were the European F-16s refused because of their health, or other, diplomatic reasons?
> Any talks of more EDAs from USA?


Health was the primary reason.
A team of pilots & engineers visit any potential country and submit their report. If that has Ifs-and-but then that put decision makers in the back-seat. Political support/approvals comes second.



salman-1 said:


> Where does these retired planes go? to another squadron or new planes are added to the existing inventory


Mostly stored and routinely checked/tested. Those in good condition can be brought back to service again IF required, whereas the old ones are broken for spares use.



truthseeker2010 said:


> sir any idea of cost of recent f-16 purchase by paf or used f-16?


Depends upon service life remaining and overall deal. 




Arsalan said:


> What is the latest about the Jordanian F16 that we got? are they going straight for MLU as well? in fact, will there be an MLU program for that? we do have the kits i assume and so we may send these to Turkey as well to upgrade these and bring these to the same level/standard as rest of our fleet. Where do the total number stands now?



Well 3 Dual seats Ex-RJAF I have seen, may be they are 4...haven't counted yet 
Regarding MLU, No plan to MLU them in next few years. The are good machines, besides investing more money in MLU so soon will lose the purpose of buying such low-cost Falcons.

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## Donatello

Najam Khan said:


> Health was the primary reason.
> A team of pilots & engineers visit any potential country and submit their report. If that has Ifs-and-but then that put decision makers in the back-seat. Political support/approvals comes second.
> 
> 
> Mostly stored and routinely checked/tested. Those in good condition can be brought back to service again IF required, whereas the old ones are broken for spares use.
> 
> 
> Depends upon service life remaining and overall deal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well 3 Dual seats Ex-RJAF I have seen, may be they are 4...haven't counted yet
> Regarding MLU, No plan to MLU them in next few years. The are good machines, besides investing more money in MLU so soon will lose the purpose of buying such low-cost Falcons.




Hmm, well, then i guess that leaves on Jordanian and US EDA F-16s that PAF can scour. Any news on getting more falcons?


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## Najam Khan

Donatello said:


> Hmm, well, then i guess that leaves on Jordanian and US EDA F-16s that PAF can scour. Any news on getting more falcons?


No more for now. How much more you think we need? 
Thunder is the future for PAF.


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## Donatello

Najam Khan said:


> No more for now. How much more you think we need?
> Thunder is the future for PAF.



We have 4 squadrons now, 2 more would be ideal for 6 frontline BVR squadrons.

Thunder is there, but it is long time away from reaching BLK52 capability, plus the weapons payload and hard points will be the issue. One is light weight class and the other is Medium weight.

BLK2 Thunder is as usual delayed, so BLK3 is a good 5-7 years from now on.

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## Thorough Pro

how many would your enemy bring to fight, when SHTF? I have a pair of well built arms and generally that is enough for me, but if my enemy comes with 5 pairs, my pair doesn't look like "enough" to fight back and survive.

Ever seen a cricket match? Can you ever dream of winning the match with just Wasim, Waqar, and imran at their peak against the weakest full team? 

Ever seen wild dogs kill lions? numbers do make a difference, and increase the chance, but more important is the posturing, a strong will to prevail and tactics. One thing alone won't cut it.

We have to get out of "survive two weeks and wait for the world to interfere/protect us" mentality. We are talking about a nation here, a nation that sacrificed millions of lives and honours, Do we just want to survive and live with our tail tucked between our legs? NO! We want to live with full honour, head held high and for that we need to change our posturing, our tactics and our strategy. Assume there is no one to help us and no one will interfere and we will be on our own. If you go to fight with a strategy to slap the opponent and expecting to be protected by bystanders, then we deserve to get the crap beat out of us, humiliated and dishonoured. 



Donatello said:


> *We have 4 squadrons now, 2 more would be ideal for 6 frontline BVR squadrons.*
> 
> Thunder is there, but it is long time away from reaching BLK52 capability, plus the weapons payload and hard points will be the issue. One is light weight class and the other is Medium weight.
> 
> BLK2 Thunder is as usual delayed, so BLK3 is a good 5-7 years from now on.

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## truthseeker2010

Najam Khan said:


> Health was the primary reason.
> Depends upon service life remaining and overall deal.



so i suppose there was no weapons package, but i don't know about engines, were there spare engines with them too, if not they would have been bought at around half the price of flyaway costs so my rough guess would be 25-30 mil a piece, what do u say?



Thorough Pro said:


> Do we have a boneyard for PAF retired planes? if yes where? if no, what happens to all the retired planes



they are erected as monuments at different roads, otherwise kept as spares or ready reserves.


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## Thorough Pro

not the whole squadrons, only a few. I don't think their are more than 30 monuments in the whole country for all the types combined. Fatman and Najam had already responded




truthseeker2010 said:


> so i suppose there was no weapons package, but i don't know about engines, were there spare engines with them too, if not they would have been bought at around half the price of flyaway costs so my rough guess would be 25-30 mil a piece, what do u say?
> 
> 
> 
> *they are erected as monuments at different roads*, otherwise kept as spares or ready reserves.


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## fatman17

a strong and robust economy ---> leads to a nation that pays its share of taxes ---> leads to a strong and robust defence ----> leads to a confident and robust nation where the adversary will think twice before doing anything.

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## Najam Khan

Donatello said:


> We have 4 squadrons now, 2 more would be ideal for 6 frontline BVR squadrons.
> 
> Thunder is there, but it is long time away from reaching *BLK52 capability*, plus the weapons payload and hard points will be the issue. One is light weight class and the other is Medium weight.
> 
> BLK2 Thunder is as usual delayed, so BLK3 is a good 5-7 years from now on.



Aiming to achieve that capability level is good, but at the expanse of what? 
More investment in buying US origin systems? These are a short term solution...lets say they keep you in the game till next 5-7 years, but what IF more improved Chinese options (read J-31) /mature JF-17 comes on table in next 10 years? Also will there be need to go with those '6-squadrons F-16s' when more mature systems are available?

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## Donatello

Najam Khan said:


> Aiming to achieve that capability level is good, but at the expanse of what?
> More investment in buying US origin systems? These are a short term solution...lets say they keep you in the game till next 5-7 years, but what IF more improved Chinese options (read J-31) /mature JF-17 comes on table in next 10 years? Also will there be need to go with those '6-squadrons F-16s' when more mature systems are available?



Yes, but we need rapid stop gap measures within 1-2 years. Jordanian f-16s provided some of that. JF-17 program is taking time, it's the end of 2014 and we are still awaiting the 3rd squadron.

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Yes, but we need rapid stop gap measures within 1-2 years. Jordanian f-16s provided some of that. JF-17 program is taking time, it's the end of 2014 and we are still awaiting the 3rd squadron.


 
when one plans to induct between 150 - 250 aircraft, it requires planning, infrastructure development (read depot level maintenance), training of pilots and maintainers and most importantly funds. so this is a long-term process. phase-1 is complete with the replacement of the A-5III squadrons. phase-2 should see the systematic retirement of the mirages and F-7s (as per PAF plans). IMO at least 2 more squadrons of JFT will stand up during 2015.
on the F-16s, i agree a total of ~100 would do us quite well, so another sqn of 18 would be nice to have. PAF can / has the option on the 18 F-16C/D it deferred in 2005. Q is whether the US would be willing.


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> when one plans to induct between 150 - 250 aircraft, it requires planning, infrastructure development (read depot level maintenance), training of pilots and maintainers and most importantly funds. so this is a long-term process. phase-1 is complete with the replacement of the A-5III squadrons. phase-2 should see the systematic retirement of the mirages and F-7s (as per PAF plans). IMO at least 2 more squadrons of JFT will stand up during 2015.
> on the F-16s, i agree a total of ~100 would do us quite well, so another sqn of 18 would be nice to have. PAF can / has the option on the 18 F-16C/D it deferred in 2005. Q is whether the US would be willing.



Hi, as the option is there, there is not much USA can do, or why would it want to do anything? The question is, where do we place them and do we have 1.6 billion USD for a single squadron? My concern is, we can get 2-3 squadrons of used MLU F-16s or non MLUs and then MLU them, that give us 10-15 years. But where do we go for shopping? EDA from USA or elsewhere.


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## IPL5

what is the truth in the report that pakistani f-16 blk 52 can operate from a very few air bases as instructed by US and can't fly it out to the other nations for participate in training exercises ?


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## salman-1

USA wont give their EDA directly now. It will open window through some other country like jordan has done. Spare and good condition F-16's wont be available that much untill F-35 is mass produced like F-16. Every country is not financially sound as were they in like 70's or 80 era. These are tight fiscal era's . Replacement will be only F-35 for F-16, only then Air forces like PAF could go on easy shopping for EDA with spare engines and thousands of spare parts attached with their package for sale, Like the Mirages


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## Donatello

IPL5 said:


> what is the truth in the report that pakistani f-16 blk 52 can operate from a very few air bases as instructed by US and can't fly it out to the other nations for participate in training exercises ?



F-16s can be used as PAF deems fit. Chinese cannot be given access to them, that's all. Otherwise they can go to all exercises that there maybe.


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## Donatello

IPL5 said:


> In which exercises it has participated ?


Search this forum. And please, stop being ignorant.

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## Donatello

IPL5 said:


> don't try to be a smart act, tell us where outside pakistan it had participated in any training exercises.


PAF's Exercises from around the World.

Now take your whining someplace else.

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## MastanKhan

IPL5 said:


> what is the truth in the report that pakistani f-16 blk 52 can operate from a very few air bases as instructed by US and can't fly it out to the other nations for participate in training exercises ?



Hi,

That is a standard restriction all F 16 flying nations---. For Pakistan---it is an exceptional case----the U S has stepped out of its way to sell it the F 16 BLK 52----knowing very well that pak also operates chinese aircraft and Chinese operators are also on Pakistani base.

In order for the u s to safeguard its technology---Pakistan offered that it would have separate F 16 bases. So---basically U S had a serious concern---and Pakistan aptly addressed. Same thing against any training exercises --- you train against superior aircraft and F 16 has been doing that over the years----.

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## Chak Bamu

@IPL5 warned for attempted trolling. I have zero patience for trolls on these threads.

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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Hi, as the option is there, there is not much USA can do, or why would it want to do anything? The question is, where do we place them and do we have 1.6 billion USD for a single squadron? My concern is, we can get 2-3 squadrons of used MLU F-16s or non MLUs and then MLU them, that give us 10-15 years. But where do we go for shopping? EDA from USA or elsewhere.


 
i'd prefer the newer block-52s but i guess thats me.

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## nomi007



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## IrbiS

Most recent article from 'AirForces Monthly' Magazine

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## Donatello

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> Most recent article from 'AirForces Monthly' Magazine
> View attachment 154502
> View attachment 154503



Information like this should be posted in a wiki....

@Oscar @Horus @WebMaster 

It would be useful to have locked threads where such information can be posted for future reference.

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## fatman17

need to be careful of AFM's rights....


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## truthseeker2010

so the early vipers didn't had the night strike capability..... i seriously doubt this..... didn't the usaf used a/b models for precision strike in first gulf war?


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## IrbiS

truthseeker2010 said:


> so the early vipers didn't had the night strike capability..... i seriously doubt this..... didn't the usaf used a/b models for precision strike in first gulf war?


Before mlu and sniper pod we only had atlis pod for day time.Sure they did with more capable systems.

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## truthseeker2010

then how was f-16 called all weather, day/night multi-role fighter..... ever since?


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## IrbiS

truthseeker2010 said:


> then how was f-16 called all weather, day/night multi-role fighter..... ever since?


We got 'em in 83 and it was an early version till recently MLUed while u.s and other countries got receiving upgrades specially from block 30/32 onwards around 89-90 which developed night time precision strike capabilities.Yet it could still perform(our version) air-to-air and air-to-ground mission hence the term multirole and fly in night time but couldn't deliver precision bombs at night.If not sanctioned, it would've been another story


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## fatman17




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## fatman17

dexter said:


> View attachment 155534
> 
> 
> "Db-110 - the eye of Falcons"
> 
> A F-16 Block52 equipped with DB-110 reconnaissance and long range photography pod.
> 
> DB-110 is the most advanced electro-optical infrared (EO/IR) reconnaissance pod available for the F-16. It provides long-range, high-resolution, stand off imaging capability to support both day and night tactical operations. Images can be transmitted from aircraft to analysts on the ground in real time.


 
very useful in locating militant hideouts, then blow them up with PGMs. no muss no fuss.

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## nomi007

Brother in arms - Vipers from Turkish AF No.115 Filo and PAF No.11 Sqn flying in Exercise Indus Viper 2008.

Turkish Air Force’s contingent included five F-16 C/D aircraft and 50 personnel that took part in this 10-day exercise at Mushaf Ab, Sargodha.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

nomi007 said:


> Brother in arms - Vipers from Turkish AF No.115 Filo and PAF No.11 Sqn flying in Exercise Indus Viper 2008.
> 
> Turkish Air Force’s contingent included five F-16 C/D aircraft and 50 personnel that took part in this 10-day exercise at Mushaf Ab, Sargodha.



Is there a difference in the Tail Root of the TuAF or is it just the camera shot? There is a roundel on the fuselage of TuAF where as PAF does not have it why?

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## IrbiS

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Is there a difference in the Tail Root of the TuAF or is it just the camera shot? There is a roundel on the fuselage of TuAF where as PAF does not have it why?


There is due to different production blocks.Roundel is not a big deal, aircraft is yours to put as many.

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## humza_313

Acquiring the J-10 has become a dream now =/


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## boke

我知道巴基斯坦用美制F16用了几十年，可是美国人并不愿意分享哪怕是维修技术，连个维修基地都没有在巴基斯坦设立，而且也曾因为和印度的关系在巴基斯坦存亡关头违约拒绝交付巴已购买的F16，使用F16可能有现实的必要性在里面，但是长远来看，甚至不及枭龙战机的改进型。另外，不低于F16战力的战机中国也可以提供，我不认为美国人在对巴基斯坦的关系上能做的比中国好，比中国坦诚。


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## boke

humza_313 said:


> Acquiring the J-10 has become a dream now =/


 那倒不一定，话说J-10一直是在改进中，暂时不能进入巴基斯坦是受限于巴财政以及后勤保障方面，主动权在于巴基斯坦，我想我的国家对于J-10出口到巴基斯坦是非常乐意的，不存在什么障碍！


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## IrbiS

Close-up of the Carrapace passive RWR system installed on a Belgian F-16

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## nomi007

*ZooM IN
AIM-9M Sidewinder* 

The AIM-9M, currently the only operational variant, has the all-aspect capability of the L model, but provides all-around higher performance. The M model has improved defense against infrared countermeasures, enhanced background discrimination capability, and a reduced-smoke rocket motor. These modifications increase ability to locate and lock-on a target and decrease the missile's chances for detection.

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## HRK

Pakistan bought 13 F-16 from Jordan at a total cost of $ *75 million* ($ 5.769 million per Fighter Jet)

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## Kompromat

HRK said:


> Pakistan bought 13 F-16 from Jordan at a total cost of $ *75 million* ($ 5.7 million per Fighter Jet)
> 
> View attachment 157956



$5.6 mil a piece, not bad.


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## HRK

Horus said:


> $5.6 mil a piece, not bad.



yaap as per my previous estimate .... its just official confirmation ....

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well we were owed* 60-70 F16 *for which we paid for and we got some "WHEAT" in return ... so these 13 F16 , make small consolation

Instead of 100% refund we got WHEAT for 70 F16.... anyway you look at it , we are owed 50-60 F16 and 1990's price

I don't think these are cheap if you look at the big picture , we got WHEAT instead of 70 F16~! 90's

And now we got the 13 used F16 ... lol and we still had to PAY money for it

We should have recieved 20-30 F16 C/D and with apology letter for 1990's shananigans

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## Donatello

wow....squadron of F-16s for 75 million USD....truly a steal.

If they taxed a single wadera, you would recover that cost in a month.


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## Bilal.



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## Bilal.

HRK said:


> Pakistan bought 13 F-16 from Jordan at a total cost of $ *75 million* ($ 5.769 million per Fighter Jet)
> 
> View attachment 157956



Thats $5.77 mils a pop.. What a bargain!!!

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## IrbiS

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> We should have recieved 20-30 F16 C/D and with apology letter for 1990's shananigans


They gave 13 if I'm right.


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## Mughal-Prince

Bilal. said:


> View attachment 158097


Haye jugaro logon!!! Kuch tau khuda ka khouf kero yeh F-16 hai


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## Bilal.

princeiftikharmirza said:


> Haye jugaro logon!!! Kuch tau khuda ka khouf kero yeh F-16 hai



Is mien jugar kahan hai, proper kaam ho raha hai:


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## Donatello

Bilal. said:


> View attachment 158097


Where is this?


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## Mughal-Prince

Bilal. said:


> Is mien jugar kahan hai, proper kaam ho raha hai:


Acha  Yaar mujhay luga bus canopy pay kaghaz chipka ker shuru ho gaye.


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## Bilal.

Donatello said:


> Where is this?



PAC


----------



## Bilal.

princeiftikharmirza said:


> Acha  Yaar mujhay luga bus canopy pay kaghaz chipka ker shuru ho gaye.



Amreeki bhi aisahi kerte hien:

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## Mughal-Prince

Bilal. said:


> Amreeki bhi aisahi kerte hien:
> 
> View attachment 158192



Acha phir theek hai . Muger aik difference hai Ouper bulb humaray yahan sahi say nahin lugay huay

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## truthseeker2010

why not go for more used f-16 to replace aging mirage and f-7 on fast track, a 100 more vipers should not cost more than a billion since 75 were for 13, i am sure paf will have this much funds in next 2-3 years, meanwhile jf-17 production should continue on a normal run for next two years, squadron a year, this will give a much needed boost, I think F-16 is still a superior machine than JF-17 handsdown.


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## Donatello

truthseeker2010 said:


> why not go for more used f-16 to replace aging mirage and f-7 on fast track, a 100 more vipers should not cost more than a billion since 75 were for 13, i am sure paf will have this much funds in next 2-3 years, meanwhile jf-17 production should continue on a normal run for next two years, squadron a year, this will give a much needed boost, I think F-16 is still a superior machine than JF-17 handsdown.



100 more such vipers are not available. You tell, where would they come from?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> They gave 13 if I'm right.




No that would be on top of the 18 C/D as we purchased them at new "currency valuation"

Pakistani Money was very strong back then .... so the $$ that bough tus 70 F16 in 1990s would have bought us 150 F16 of same type and class

So the loss cannot be compared

1990s we lost 70 F16 Deal , which was paid for by Pakistan

2010 We got 18 Block c/d planes at higher price & lower numbers
13 Old Jordanian planes, were some what reasonable price but even so , 70 vs 13 big difference


We really are owed almost 50 planes at reduced rates deal (F16 or F15 or Hornets)

A true , and appropriate resolution should have been our 70 F16 deal was scrapped so we should have received same number of planes at reduced rates

1) Will keep F16 production facility working for another 10 years
2) We will finally close the chapter of loses to Airforce due to F16


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## truthseeker2010

Donatello said:


> 100 more such vipers are not available. You tell, where would they come from?



belgium, dutch, norwegian, venezuela, danish, portugese some of them are going for f-35, so will be phasing them out. There is also excess inventory at AMARG, also our 28 that were embargoed and stored AMARG are also with europeans as excess inventory.


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## IrbiS

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> No that would be on top of the 18 C/D as we purchased them at new "currency valuation"
> 
> Pakistani Money was very strong back then .... so the $$ that bough tus 70 F16 in 1990s would have bought us 150 F16 of same type and class
> 
> So the loss cannot be compared
> 
> 1990s we lost 70 F16 Deal , which was paid for by Pakistan
> 
> 2010 We got 18 Block c/d planes at higher price & lower numbers
> 13 Old Jordanian planes, were some what reasonable price but even so , 70 vs 13 big difference
> 
> 
> We really are owed almost 50 planes at reduced rates deal (F16 or F15 or Hornets)
> 
> A true , and appropriate resolution should have been our 70 F16 deal was scrapped so we should have received same number of planes at reduced rates
> 
> 1) Will keep F16 production facility working for another 10 years
> 2) We will finally close the chapter of loses to Airforce due to F16


We got 40 from 1st order, 9 were lost in crashes till 2009's last crash. This leaves 31+13 from Jordan and 18 new 52+, this makes the count 62. But our current number is 76. Where the difference come from? It the 14 jet Block 15OCUs Which we received b/w 2005-2008. If I remember correctly 1st 1 or 2 were ferried to Pakistan by U.S pilots.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well forget the planes we got in 80's (Those numbers are not in question those were clean deals)

I am talking about the shipment in 90's that was cancelled after it was fully paid

After that saga , we only received hand full for higher cost

If that order had gone thru we would have had almost 120-140 F16 flying , prior to buying the 18 C/D jets in 2006 and off 13 planes we got later

*Peace Gate I (Batch 1 : Clean Deal)*
In December 1981, the government of Pakistan signed a letter of agreement for the purchase of up to 40 F-16A/B (28 F-16A and 12 F-16B) fighters for the _Pakistan Fiza'ya_ (Pakistan Air Force, or PAF). The deal would be split into two batches, one of 6 aircraft and the other of 34

*Peace Gate II (Batch 2 : Clean Deal)*
The remaining 34 aircraft were delivered under Peace Gate II

*Peace Gate III *(Embargoed)
Seven years after the first order, in December of 1988, Pakistan ordered 11 additional F-16A/B Block 15 OCU (Operational Capability Upgrade) aircraft (6 Alpha and 5 Bravo models) under the Peace Gate III program. These aircraft were purchased as attrition replacements and fully paid for, but are still awaiting delivery in the Arizona Desert

*Peace Gate IV *(Embargoed)
In September of 1989, plans were announced by Pakistan to acquire * 60 more F-16A/B's*. A contract was signed in the same year under the _Peace Gate IV_ Foreign Military Sales Programs, for the delivery of 60 F-16s for* US $1.4 billion* or approximately US $23 million a piece.

*Peace Drive  (Clean Deal)*
Finally, after long series of negotiations, on September 30th, 2006 the contract was signed between the Pakistani and US government for the acquisition of 18 new F-16C/D block 52 aircraft and an option for another 18 more

*Second hand purchase* *(Clean deal)*
13 more planes



*Impact on Federal Reserves or Cost to Pakistan due to money devaluation*
In 1990 , Pakistani Rupee was 30 Rupees per 1 Dollar ratio
That ratio is *1:101 * (Double the amount of money we have to pay for every plane)


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## IrbiS

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well forget the planes we got in 80's (Those numbers are not in question those were clean deals)
> 
> I am talking about the shipment in 90's that was cancelled after it was fully paid
> 
> After that saga , we only received hand full for higher cost
> 
> If that order had gone thru we would have had almost 120-140 F16 flying , prior to buying the 18 C/D jets in 2006 and off 13 planes we got later
> 
> *Peace Gate I (Batch 1 : Clean Deal)*
> In December 1981, the government of Pakistan signed a letter of agreement for the purchase of up to 40 F-16A/B (28 F-16A and 12 F-16B) fighters for the _Pakistan Fiza'ya_ (Pakistan Air Force, or PAF). The deal would be split into two batches, one of 6 aircraft and the other of 34
> 
> *Peace Gate II (Batch 2 : Clean Deal)*
> The remaining 34 aircraft were delivered under Peace Gate II
> 
> *Peace Gate III *(Embargoed)
> Seven years after the first order, in December of 1988, Pakistan ordered 11 additional F-16A/B Block 15 OCU (Operational Capability Upgrade) aircraft (6 Alpha and 5 Bravo models) under the Peace Gate III program. These aircraft were purchased as attrition replacements and fully paid for, but are still awaiting delivery in the Arizona Desert
> 
> *Peace Gate IV *(Embargoed)
> In September of 1989, plans were announced by Pakistan to acquire * 60 more F-16A/B's*. A contract was signed in the same year under the _Peace Gate IV_ Foreign Military Sales Programs, for the delivery of 60 F-16s for* US $1.4 billion* or approximately US $23 million a piece.
> 
> *Peace Drive  (Clean Deal)*
> Finally, after long series of negotiations, on September 30th, 2006 the contract was signed between the Pakistani and US government for the acquisition of 18 new F-16C/D block 52 aircraft and an option for another 18 more
> 
> *Second hand purchase* *(Clean deal)*
> 13 more planes
> 
> 
> 
> *Impact on Federal Reserves or Cost to Pakistan due to money devaluation*
> In 1990 , Pakistani Rupee was 30 Rupees per 1 Dollar ratio
> That ratio is *1:101 * (Double the amount of money we have to pay for every plane)


I thought we were talking numbers too. Anyway, Embargoed F-16 were stored and we got wheat, then they tried to sold them but couldn't get customers so those frames went to agressor squadrons and I'm not sure right now but they paid the too in 1995-2000. Even if they didn't, can we take it from them?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well , I think the real damage is done on money devaluation but we have JF17 Program and hopefully we recover some F16 via FMS programs lets see


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## IrbiS

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well , I think the real damage is done on money devaluation but we have JF17 Program and hopefully we recover some F16 via FMS programs lets see


Now that's the spirit : Forget bad past, look ahead and get what you can.


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## Hurter

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Well forget the planes we got in 80's (Those numbers are not in question those were clean deals)
> 
> I am talking about the shipment in 90's that was cancelled after it was fully paid
> 
> After that saga , we only received hand full for higher cost
> 
> If that order had gone thru we would have had almost 120-140 F16 flying , prior to buying the 18 C/D jets in 2006 and off 13 planes we got later
> 
> *Peace Gate I (Batch 1 : Clean Deal)*
> In December 1981, the government of Pakistan signed a letter of agreement for the purchase of up to 40 F-16A/B (28 F-16A and 12 F-16B) fighters for the _Pakistan Fiza'ya_ (Pakistan Air Force, or PAF). The deal would be split into two batches, one of 6 aircraft and the other of 34
> 
> *Peace Gate II (Batch 2 : Clean Deal)*
> The remaining 34 aircraft were delivered under Peace Gate II
> 
> *Peace Gate III *(Embargoed)
> Seven years after the first order, in December of 1988, Pakistan ordered 11 additional F-16A/B Block 15 OCU (Operational Capability Upgrade) aircraft (6 Alpha and 5 Bravo models) under the Peace Gate III program. These aircraft were purchased as attrition replacements and fully paid for, but are still awaiting delivery in the Arizona Desert
> 
> *Peace Gate IV *(Embargoed)
> In September of 1989, plans were announced by Pakistan to acquire * 60 more F-16A/B's*. A contract was signed in the same year under the _Peace Gate IV_ Foreign Military Sales Programs, for the delivery of 60 F-16s for* US $1.4 billion* or approximately US $23 million a piece.
> 
> *Peace Drive  (Clean Deal)*
> Finally, after long series of negotiations, on September 30th, 2006 the contract was signed between the Pakistani and US government for the acquisition of 18 new F-16C/D block 52 aircraft and an option for another 18 more
> 
> *Second hand purchase* *(Clean deal)*
> 13 more planes
> 
> 
> 
> *Impact on Federal Reserves or Cost to Pakistan due to money devaluation*
> In 1990 , Pakistani Rupee was 30 Rupees per 1 Dollar ratio
> That ratio is *1:101 * (Double the amount of money we have to pay for every plane)



Will Pakistan get brand new 18 block 52 if the deal approves by U.S?


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## IrbiS

Junaid B said:


> Will Pakistan get brand new 18 block 52 if the deal approves by U.S?


Yes if they agree and we ask 'em.


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## HRK

Bilal. said:


> Thats $5.77 mils a pop.. What a bargain!!!



One of my old post regarding F-16 acquisition from Jordan: Pakistan buys 13 F16 from Jordan | Page 83

The Total Acquisition cost of Jordan for 16 units of Peace Falcon-I F-16 block-15 OCU (upgraded to ADF) was $ *220 million* (*13.750 *Avg.) *including additional items* as mention under, but on average the actual acquisition cost for every single bird was around *$10.815 million* during 1997 & 1998 see the table attached below (column: Unit Acquisition Value) or download the Excess Defense Articles report from the website of Defence Security Cooperation Agency USA







=================================

that deal was really beneficial to both countries as Jordan recovered 34% of the cost of Peace Falcon-I program even after utilizing the F-16s for 16 years.

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## Basel

Donatello said:


> 100 more such vipers are not available. You tell, where would they come from?



True, but if PAF is so much love with US stuff then they can look for used F-18s or F-15 with MLU, I think few used F-18s will be available.


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## sathya

Basel said:


> True, but if PAF is so much love with US stuff then they can look for used F-18s or F-15 with MLU, I think few used F-18s will be available.



F 16 are in 1000s and f 18 are in hundreds ..

Pakistan have all facilities and training already for F 16, not for F 18

Going for F18 or F 15 will become really expensive for you.. Even for the used ones..


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We should request any F15 OR F16 via FMS , or Defence article program


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## Donatello

Basel said:


> True, but if PAF is so much love with US stuff then they can look for used F-18s or F-15 with MLU, I think few used F-18s will be available.



F-18 and F-15 is too far fetched......maintenance nightmare for PAF as you will be dependent on USA for two major assets. Best twin engine option today is Chinese J-11 with blessing of the Russian bear. You can tailor it to your own needs.

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## Basel

@sathya if you read the thread posts you will find out that used F-16s in good condition are not available, although built and deployed in numbers, but few used F-18 or F-15s will be available as there are from same time and many counties will like to go for new platforms specially US as F-22 have replaced some F-15 already and if Pakistan lobby well we may get few F-18s or F-15s although latter one seem better choice as it will be produced for some time.


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## Basel

Donatello said:


> F-18 and F-15 is too far fetched......maintenance nightmare for PAF as you will be dependent on USA for two major assets. Best twin engine option today is Chinese J-11 with blessing of the Russian bear. You can tailor it to your own needs.



True, but it goes for any new platform inducted, F-15s are used and maintained by KSA and they are procuring more so if PAF purchased few used ones with MLU then KSA may be able to help us maintain them, also F-15s can be used similarly as IDF have used them, but if J-11Bs or higher are available from China then it will be much better option and it also look more realistic in current scenario as Russia is now ready to sell weapons to Pakistan.


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## hassan1



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## humza_313

boke said:


> 那倒不一定，话说J-10一直是在改进中，暂时不能进入巴基斯坦是受限于巴财政以及后勤保障方面，主动权在于巴基斯坦，我想我的国家对于J-10出口到巴基斯坦是非常乐意的，不存在什么障碍！





boke said:


> 那倒不一定，话说J-10一直是在改进中，暂时不能进入巴基斯坦是受限于巴财政以及后勤保障方面，主动权在于巴基斯坦，我想我的国家对于J-10出口到巴基斯坦是非常乐意的，不存在什么障碍！


Umm, dude, I have a little trouble reading this ^

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## Imran Khan

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> We should request any F15 OR F16 via FMS , or Defence article program


ruk ja yar ajkal kharcha bhut hai garmiyoon main dukan theek chal pari to leen gay

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## black-hawk_101

So what F-16s have arrived from Jordan? Please answer as last time it was about 13 or 16s? But doesn't know anything about current.


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## humza_313

Imran Khan said:


> ruk ja yar ajkal kharcha bhut hai garmiyoon main dukan theek chal pari to leen gay


Hahaha, abhi pichloan ka kharcha nai sambhaala ja raha

The MLU of the old F-16s is enough for now. Building and expanding the JF-17 force and acquiring an alternate air superiority jet from China or some other friendly country could be a good option. We should get rid of the old ones asap,


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## Imran Khan

humza_313 said:


> Hahaha, abhi pichloan ka kharcha nai sambhaala ja raha
> 
> The MLU of the old F-16s is enough for now. Building and expanding the JF-17 force and acquiring an alternate air superiority jet from China or some other friendly country could be a good option. We should get rid of the old ones asap,


bhai is liye bol raha tha kiyoon ke patrol sasta ho ya hai . wo ye nhi janta ke kal ko phir mehnga ho gya to f-16 ko cng pe karana pary ga


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## IrbiS

black-hawk_101 said:


> So what F-16s have arrived from Jordan? Please answer as last time it was about 13 or 16s? But doesn't know anything about current.


13 ADF variants. Current fleet is minimum 76 strong.


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## CyberForce786

humza_313 said:


> Umm, dude, I have a little trouble reading this ^



Google translation can help you in these cases, little odd translation but quite helpful to understand....

boke said:
(Not necessarily , saying J-10 has been improving , and is temporarily unable to enter Pakistan is limited by financial and logistical support to the Palestinian side, the initiative lies in Pakistan , I would like my country to the J-10 exports to Pakistan are very happy and what obstacles do not exist !)


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## fatman17



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## nomi007

*No.19 Sqn F-16 ADF flanked by CCS Mirages.*
PAF is in process of equipping Mirages with Southafrican origin air-refueling probe, which shall improve endurance of these aircraft.


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## Donatello

What squadron operates the 14 exEDA F-16s?

The original 32 are with Arrows and Griffins.
Then Falcons got the blk52s
Sherdils operate the ex Jordanian.

SO where do the 14 remaining ones go?

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## IrbiS

Donatello said:


> What squadron operates the 14 exEDA F-16s?
> 
> The original 32 are with Arrows and Griffins.
> Then Falcons got the blk52s
> Sherdils operate the ex Jordanian.
> 
> SO where do the 14 remaining ones go?


They are likely to be distributed among 32nd Wing and CCS.

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## krash

Donatello said:


> What squadron operates the 14 exEDA F-16s?
> 
> The original 32 are with Arrows and Griffins.
> Then Falcons got the blk52s
> Sherdils operate the ex Jordanian.
> 
> SO where do the 14 remaining ones go?





Umair Khan Niazi said:


> They are likely to be distributed among 32nd Wing and CCS.



Absorbed in the No.9 and No.11 Sqds. I believe the CCS takes its birds from No.9. Some of the EDAs have switched squadrons in between too,

90615 first in No.9 during Red Flag then in No.11 during Anatolian eagle:












90616 in No.9:






92623 in No.9:






92618 in No.9






Remember that all the 6 birds from No.9 sent for Red Flag (Serial# 90613, 90615, 90616, 92618, 92620 and 92623) were all EDAs?

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## black-hawk_101

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 160660



So where is Aim-120D?


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## fatman17

Today in F-16 history
11 Dec 1988 
Pakistan orders 11 F-16s (Peace Gate III).

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## nomi007



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## dexter

Fixed formation of Pakistan airforce flying during High Mark 2010 military exercise.

-JF-17 Thunder block-1
-F-16A Block-15
-F-7 Skybolt
-A-5C Fantan (retired fleet)
-Mirage 5 ROSE

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

F-7 are larger then I first imagined


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## fatman17

F-16 units.

no. 9
no.11
no.5
no.19
CCS (detachments from above sqds as and when required)


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## nomi007

CCS F-7 vs F-16 (9Sqn) - Dissimilar Air Combat Training (DACT).

- JF-17 shall replace F-7P in CCS by end-Dec-2014.

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## nomi007

*ENOUGH IS ENOUGH 
PAF NEED TO STRIKE IN SIDE AFGHANISTAN *

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## Manticore

F-16 Units - Pakistan Air Force

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## truthseeker2010

nomi007 said:


> *ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
> PAF NEED TO STRIKE IN SIDE AFGHANISTAN *



They are ready and waiting for the final GO!


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## fatman17

Above F-16C Cockpit.
Below F-16A Cockpit.





F-16 Griffons




F-16A - Block 15 OCU, embargoed.

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## salman-1

If USA can use drones to attack Taliban insid Pakistan. Then why not striking without any prior information. Molvi Fazal ullah is the main culprit behind school Firing. PAF should locate his locaton with its phalco or any other type of drone and strike immediately at night . No need to ask any western commander.

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## ghazi52

salman-1 said:


> If USA can use drones to attack Taliban insid Pakistan. Then why not striking without any prior information. Molvi Fazal ullah is the main culprit behind school Firing. PAF should locate his locaton with its phalco or any other type of drone and strike immediately at night . No need to ask any western commander.


Good point....


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## Paksanity

ghazi52 said:


> Good point....


To locate is issue... If located he can be taken out with some early warning. Our birds are more than capable of doing this.


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## Tacticool

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 177064
> View attachment 177063
> 
> Above F-16C Cockpit.
> Below F-16A Cockpit.
> 
> View attachment 177065
> 
> F-16 Griffons
> 
> View attachment 177066
> F-16A - Block 15 OCU, embargoed.


Shouldn't F-16 C have 3 MFDs?


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## SQ8

Abdul_Haseeb said:


> Shouldn't F-16 C have 3 MFDs?



Nope, the F-16 blockC has two MFDs and the Centre console is for analogue instruments.Only the F-16E has three MFDs. There are upgrades offered for older F-16s that add a centre display.

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## IrbiS

PAF F-16A 84709 landing with ALQ-131 Jamming Pod(Most likely in Turkey)



Found another one. It's definitely in Turkey.

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## black-hawk_101

Oscar said:


> Nope, the F-16 blockC has two MFDs and the Centre console is for analogue instruments.Only the F-16E has three MFDs. There are upgrades offered for older F-16s that add a centre display.
> View attachment 177234



Why didn't UAE produced F-16s on its own, I mean assemble as they have tech too. Like Producing 150+ F-16s E/F for them and also some for Oman, Qatar, Bahrain and Kuwait as well.


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## Donatello

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> PAF F-16A 84709 landing with ALQ-131 Jamming Pod(Most likely in Turkey).
> View attachment 177644



Is that the DRS ACT pod on the starboard wing tip?


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## IrbiS

Donatello said:


> Is that the DRS ACT pod on the starboard wing tip?


Nope. The one you're referring to, is called P5.

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## Donatello

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> Nope. The one you're referring to, is called P5.
> View attachment 177794



Wasn't it the DRS pod that Pakistan got, because it mentions Pakistan in their 'deployed' regions around the world?


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## IrbiS

Donatello said:


> Wasn't it the DRS pod that Pakistan got, because it mentions Pakistan in their 'deployed' regions around the world?


Yes, they mention it. It's name is P5 by DRS Defence Solutions.




PAF Falcons with P5 during RED FLAG 10-4

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## IrbiS

Detail of the Missile Warning System on RDAF F-16BM #ET-210 spotted at Le Bourget on June 13th, 2005





F-16 MLU Wide Angle Coverage HUD



Radar detail of an AN-APG-66(V)2 on an F-16AM





Conformal Air Refuelling Tanker/System (CARTS) which adds a probe in the forward end of the right-hand over-wing conformal tank


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## Donatello

Any pics of the BLK52 cockpit vs MLU f-16s cockpit vs the original cockpit of the BLK15 units?


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## truthseeker2010

Donatello said:


> Any pics of the BLK52 cockpit vs MLU f-16s cockpit vs the original cockpit of the BLK15 units?



Early F-16A 




MLU





Block-50

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## IrbiS

*


Donatello said:



Any pics of the BLK52 cockpit vs MLU f-16s cockpit vs the original cockpit of the BLK15 units?

Click to expand...


Cockpit detail of USAF F-16A block 5 #78-0022:





F-16A block 10 cockpit with everything online:










Portuguese Air Force F-16A Block 15K serial 82-0936:













RNoAF F-16BM #711:





HAF's 52+:











*

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## Hurter

Any cockpit view of Block 60 E/F?


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## IrbiS

Junaid B said:


> Any cockpit view of Block 60 E/F?


Scroll-up this page to Oscar's post#8372


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## fatman17

Today in F-16 history
*23 Dec 1981 *
Pakistan orders 6 F-16s (Peace Gate I) becoming the 9th customer.
*23 Dec 1981 *
Pakistan orders 34 F-16s (Peace Gate II).

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## IrbiS

*ANATOLIAN EAGLE 2OO4*

The PAF flew six 9 Squadron F-16s to Konya AB, Turkey, to take part in Exercise Anatolian Eagle from September 27-October 8 (2004). The two F-16Bs and four F-16As were all sporting the unit's 'Griffins' nickname on the fin and made history as the first operational PAF fighters to conduct Combined Air Operations (COMAO) with NATO aircraft. The detachment comprised 76 personnel, including 14 pilots, all mainly from the unit's home base at Sargodha.(Notice the ALQ-131 Jammer)

Alan Warnes, Air Forces Monthly

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## SipahSalar

Is there absolutely no possibility that we can get BVR missiles for our F-16s? Without BVR capability they seem rather wasted in a modern air combat role.


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## nomi007

Can F-16ADF carry AIM-120 AMRAAM Missile?


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## SipahSalar

nomi007 said:


> Can F-16ADF carry AIM-120 AMRAAM Missile?



Of course it can, but our agreement with USA forbids BVR weapons on F-16s.


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## fatman17

SipahSalar said:


> Of course it can, but our agreement with USA forbids BVR weapons on F-16s.


 
good one - then why did we purchase 500 AIM-120C/5's.

*RAF Eurofighter Typhoons 'beaten by Pakistani F-16s'*
Three-nil, apparently. Brit flyboys 'shocked'

8 Jun 2011 at 10:00, Lewis Page

Pakistani pilots flying modernised versions of the 1970s-vintage F-16 Falcon fighter have beaten the RAF's brand-new Eurofighter Typhoon superfighters during air combat exercises in Turkey, according to a Pakistani officer.

Costs like a Raptor, flies like a Tornado

This interview with an unnamed but evidently experienced Pakistani Air Force (PAF) F-16 pilot on exchange with the Turkish air force, posted on the official site of the PAF display team, includes the following intriguing passage. (Hat tip to the excellent DEW Line blog for flagging this up.)

Q: Any memorable experiences that you would like to share?
A: On one occasion – in one of the international Anatolian Eagles - PAF pilots were pitted against RAF Typhoons, a formidable aircraft. There were three set-ups and in all three, we shot down the Typhoons. The RAF pilots were shocked.

Q: Any particular reason for your success?
A: NATO pilots are not that proficient in close-in air-to-air combat. They are trained for BVR [Beyond Visual Range] engagements and their tactics are based on BVR engagements. These were close-in air combat exercises and we had the upper hand because close-in air combat is drilled into every PAF pilot and this is something we are very good at.

The Anatolian Eagle air-combat exercises are hosted by the Turkish air force and would have seen Pakistani pilots on exchange with the Turks flying modernised Turkish "Block 50" F-16s, a much-upgraded version of the original US made 1970s Fighting Falcon, which is now in service with many air forces and assembled under licence in various countries including Turkey.

Sponsored: Security management 2.0

Analysis
The RAF Typhoon, formerly known as the Eurofighter, should nonetheless have been vastly superior in air-to-air combat whether BVR or close in within visual range (WVR). The cripplingly expensive, long-delayed Eurofighter was specifically designed to address the defects of its predecessor the Tornado F3 – famously almost useless in close-in, dogfighting-style air combat. The Typhoon was meant to see off such deadly in-close threats as Soviet "Fulcrums" and "Flankers" using short-range missiles fired using helmet-mounted sight systems: such planes were thought well able to beat not just Tornados but F-16s in close fighting, and this expectation was borne out after the Cold War when the Luftwaffe inherited some from the East German air force and tried them out in exercises.

Thus it is that huge emphasis was placed on manoeuvring capability and dogfighting in the design of the Eurofighter. The expensive Euro-jet was initially designed, in fact, as a pure fighter with no ground attack options at all – bomber capability has had to be retrofitted subsequently at still more expense. Despite lacking various modern technologies such as Stealth and thrust-vectoring the resulting Typhoon is generally touted as being one of the best air-to-air combat planes in the world right now. Certainly it is meant to be good in close fighting: it is armed with the Advanced Short Range Air to Air Missile (ASRAAM) which as its name suggests is intended for the close WVR fight.

Perhaps the account above is simply a lie, or anyway a bit of a fighter pilot tall story. But the pilot quoted will be easily identifiable inside his community if not to the outside world, and he could expect a lot of flak for telling a lie on such a matter in public. It seems likelier that the story is the truth as he perceived it: that the RAF's new superfighter was thrashed in the very type of combat it is supposed to be best at by a 1970s-era plane, albeit much modernised.

It's always possible, as the anonymous Pakistani pilot suggests, that the problem was with the crews. It may be that RAF pilots simply don't know how to fight close-in. During the many years when they had no other fighter than the lamentable Tornado F3 (the Typhoon only reached front line service a few years ago) they may have lost the institutional skillset required for dogfighting with short-range missiles.

But in general when the British forces perform badly it isn't because of a lack of skills and training. It's far more normal for them to be let down by their kit. Based on this account, the Typhoon is actually worse than an F-16, and as a result an export Flanker or Fulcrum equipped with Archer missiles would beat it easily in WVR combat.

It would appear that the Eurofighter's last remaining selling point compared to modern US-made stealth fighters which cost the same or less (or for that matter vastly cheaper ordinary non-stealth fighters like the F-16, F-18 Hornet etc) now has something of a question mark over it.

The Eurofighter hits just keep on coming. ®

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## SipahSalar

fatman17 said:


> good one - then why did we purchase 500 AIM-120C/5's



Give me your reference because I certainly can't find it. I am pretty certain JF-17 Block 2 will be the first PAF aircraft that will give us BVR fighting capability.


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## IrbiS

SipahSalar said:


> Give me your reference because I certainly can't find it. I am pretty certain JF-17 Block 2 will be the first PAF aircraft that will give us BVR fighting capability.


Sorry to say but, You make me believe that you've been living in some cave for some years and just came out today into the modern world. Or else you would've known about our magnificent achievement of acquiring AMRAAMs

Watch and read these pages:
AIM-120 AMRAAM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*AIM-120 AMRAAM international orders and deliveries*
AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) - Airforce Technology

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## SipahSalar

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> Or else you would've have known about our magnificent achievement of acquiring AMRAAMs



I'd be happy to know we have them, just find me a reference sir.


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## Manticore

Pakistan joins AMRAAM club in biggest-ever buy

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## IrbiS

SipahSalar said:


> I'd be happy to know we have them, just find me a reference sir.


I've posted simple links.
AIM-120 AMRAAM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*AIM-120 AMRAAM international orders and deliveries*
AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) - Airforce Technology

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## Manticore

some old pics
credits @Najam Khan

New members should go through the threads before spreading misinformation

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## IrbiS

F-16A on Defence Day with AGM-65 Maverick Air-to-Surface Missile, LGBs, Low-drag and High-drag dumb bombs.
[Picture Copyright: Kamran Khan]


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## fatman17

SipahSalar said:


> Give me your reference because I certainly can't find it. I am pretty certain JF-17 Block 2 will be the first PAF aircraft that will give us BVR fighting capability.


 
pdf is full of such references....

u seem to be new here....its ok it will take some time

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## Oruc

Google earth pic of Shahbaz AB


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## MastanKhan

SipahSalar said:


> Of course it can, but our agreement with USA forbids BVR weapons on F-16s.



Sipahsalar,

I think you should stop posting for a few days and read up on some of the defence related material.



SipahSalar said:


> Give me your reference because I certainly can't find it. I am pretty certain JF-17 Block 2 will be the first PAF aircraft that will give us BVR fighting capability.




Sir,

Now I know that you are a blue blooded Pakistani----because none speak with so much confidence about their ignorance.

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## salarsikander

MastanKhan said:


> Sipahsalar,
> 
> I think you should stop posting for a few days and read up on some of the defence related material.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sir,
> 
> Now I know that you are a blue blooded Pakistani----because none speak with so much confidence about their ignorance.


salam Sir,

while most of us who happen to have been with PDF already know of notable Member's and their contribution to this forum, what really pisses one of is the fact that Fanboys and with their inexperienced behaviour just jump and start spewing Shi*, which infact reduces the quality of information available to learn from, as the arguments turns from knowledge learning to arguments for the sake of arguments and then to mud slinging.

I wil try to reinforce what you said earlier that while its tempting to post and argue like a kid, its more mature to learn and then present your argument not just to win that argument but to learn something from it. Sadly, which is commonly lacking in most of new member's i see

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## MastanKhan

salarsikander said:


> salam Sir,
> 
> while most of us who happen to have been with PDF already know of notable Member's and their contribution to this forum, what really pisses one of is the fact that Fanboys and with their inexperienced behaviour just jump and start spewing Shi*, which infact reduces the quality of information available to learn from, as the arguments turns from knowledge learning to arguments for the sake of arguments and then to mud slinging.
> 
> I wil try to reinforce what you said earlier that while its tempting to post and argue like a kid, its more mature to learn and then present your argument not just to win that argument but to learn something from it. Sadly, which is commonly lacking in most of new member's i see



Hi,

Thank you for your post---. AIM 120 had been an extremely hot topic on this board for many a years----it started with---you are not going to get it----okay---the deal is signed---then---they are coming---and then we have them now---that was way back.

There was trolling on this board that paf would not be able to have a lock on the indian planes---to--u s will give its codes to the Indians----to whatever.

We all make mistakes----but before we start to challenge some posts---it is real easy to use the search engine to look for related items---and if I have made a mistake in my post---I will correct it and acknowledge the error.

I go back to 1983 when I came here for automotive engineering---saw the mechanics work on the cars in the garages and everything was supposedly remembered by heart. The change I had to go thru was----to use the owners manual all the time and every time for anything at all and not to rely on assumption---I also remember the Pakistani / irani concept-----a donkey uses books for reference and an intelligent person uses his brain.

So---it became a habbit---search for the answers---. Now there are a plethora of resources around never imagined 20-25 years ago and still posters are asking for a link---and still there are trolls asking for links.

Coming back to the missile---the Aim 120 has been a massive force multiplier for the paf---from an average fighting force---it got into the category of good to very good air force. The blk52's, the mlu's to blk52 standards and the Jordanian purchase---the very reason was the induction of the aim 120.

What the aim 120 has done is that the pilot does not fy feeling impotent---he has the resources to Duke it out with the best that the enemy as to throw at it.

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## salarsikander

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for your post---. AIM 120 had been an extremely hot topic on this board for many a years----it started with---you are not going to get it----okay---the deal is signed---then---they are coming---and then we have them now---that was way back.
> 
> There was trolling on this board that paf would not be able to have a lock on the indian planes---to--u s will give its codes to the Indians----to whatever.
> 
> We all make mistakes----but before we start to challenge some posts---it is real easy to use the search engine to look for related items---and if I have made a mistake in my post---I will correct it and acknowledge the error.
> 
> I go back to 1983 when I came here for automotive engineering---saw the mechanics work on the cars in the garages and everything was supposedly remembered by heart. The change I had to go thru was----to use the owners manual all the time and every time for anything at all and not to rely on assumption---I also remember the Pakistani / irani concept-----a donkey uses books for reference and an intelligent person uses his brain.
> 
> So---it became a habbit---search for the answers---. Now there are a plethora of resources around never imagined 20-25 years ago and still posters are asking for a link---and still there are trolls asking for links.
> 
> Coming back to the missile---the Aim 120 has been a massive force multiplier for the paf---from an average fighting force---it got into the category of good to very good air force. The blk52's, the mlu's to blk52 standards and the Jordanian purchase---the very reason was the induction of the aim 120.
> 
> What the aim 120 has done is that the pilot does not fy feeling impotent---he has the resources to Duke it out with the best that the enemy as to throw at it.



Salam Sir,

Its both an honour and my pleasure to be quoted by you, I have deep respect for your valuable contribution for this forum, i very much admire your passion and your style of sharing information. You can see from my posts that it has great deal of influence from your style.

Getting back to topic, This Desi mentality of getting satisfying with what we have or produced is the mindset that will never work in this dynamic age, where are our Enemy ( 3 times our size if i m not mistaken or more) is continuously evolving and Adding punch to their power, its not going unchecked but the whole culture of Dekha JaiGa and JUGAAD is very problematic. 

While, there are are and have always been notable exceptions in our armed forces our country, but thats just one off, Gone are the days when we were in Limelight of West and we could get what we wanted. i can certainly say we are moving in sort of right direction but thats not good enough we have to have this culture of improving and learning and learning and improving taking criticisms and using that as a feedback to further improve it---- dont just stop there we have to look around what is going and add to it further.

Be Your Own worst Critic !



MastanKhan said:


> There was trolling on this board that paf would not be able to have a lock on the indian planes


And lose the opportunity to get the valuable feedback for their product and lose their credibility in Arms market,

Trust me when it comes to Americans you cant beat them out in marketing

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## MastanKhan

salarsikander said:


> Salam Sir,
> 
> Its both an honour and my pleasure to be quoted by you, I have deep respect for your valuable contribution for this forum, i very much admire your passion and your style of sharing information. You can see from my posts that it has great deal of influence from your style.
> 
> Getting back to topic, This Desi mentality of getting satisfying with what we have or produced is the mindset that will never work in this dynamic age, where are our Enemy ( 3 times our size if i m not mistaken or more) is continuously evolving and Adding punch to their power, its not going unchecked but the whole culture of Dekha JaiGa and JUGAAD is very problematic.
> 
> While, there are are and have always been notable exceptions in our armed forces our country, but thats just one off, Gone are the days when we were in Limelight of West and we could get what we wanted. i can certainly say we are moving in sort of right direction but thats not good enough we have to have this culture of improving and learning and learning and improving taking criticisms and using that as a feedback to further improve it---- dont just stop there we have to look around what is going and add to it further.
> 
> Be Your Own worst Critic !



Hi,

I am a nobody---. Indeed the beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

The last 5 years of Zardari govt has dealt us a real bad hand----from a position of victory---we have been smashed down into the jaws of defeat---from being superstars---we became the whipping boys of the united states---.

The mindset can only be changed thru a media campaign of take responsibility ---take ownership---take charge----take the rigidity out of the mindset---be flexible.

I appreciate your consideration.

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## truthseeker2010

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> *ANATOLIAN EAGLE 2OO4*
> 
> The PAF flew six 9 Squadron F-16s to Konya AB, Turkey, to take part in Exercise Anatolian Eagle from September 27-October 8 (2004). The two F-16Bs and four F-16As were all sporting the unit's 'Griffins' nickname on the fin and made history as the first operational PAF fighters to conduct Combined Air Operations (COMAO) with NATO aircraft. The detachment comprised 76 personnel, including 14 pilots, all mainly from the unit's home base at Sargodha.(Notice the ALQ-131 Jammer)
> 
> Alan Warnes, Air Forces Monthly
> 
> 
> View attachment 178547
> View attachment 178544
> View attachment 178546
> View attachment 178550
> View attachment 178545
> View attachment 178549
> View attachment 178548



where is alq-131?


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## nomi007

*AIM-120 AMRAAM*

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## IrbiS

truthseeker2010 said:


> where is alq-131?

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## IrbiS

Falcon tied down for engine testing

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## IrbiS

*M61 A1 Vulcan*
*20mm gatling gun*
F-16 Armament - M61 A1 Vulcan

*Introduction*
The General Electric M61A1 Vulcan is a 6-barrel 20mm cannon of the gatling-type. It fires standard M50 ammunition at 6,000 rounds per minute (rate selectable in certain installations).



*History*
In 1947 the brand new USAF made a request for a new aircraft gun. The lesson of WWII was that the German, Italian and Japanese fighters could reach out and touch the Americans with their cannon main armament, while the latter had to get up close and personal with the .50 cal main armament of the P-51 and P-47. The 20mm Hispano carried by the P-38 was a relatively low velocity weapon. The idea of hooking up unlimited ammo to a late 19th century "Gatling" type weapon, and powering it electrically was attempted by the US Navy for use on their Torpedo/gun boats. Results were high rate of fire and a high rate of barrel wear out. With propellants of the time and period metallurgy it was a good idea but one that was not ready until new technology came along.

In 1950, the US General Electric Company began designing a cannon for USAF fighters under the Vulcan Project, based on the multi-barrel concept pioneered by Richard J. Gatling in the 19th century. The Vulcan was first fired in pre-production form in 1953, and made its first flight in the Lockheed F-104. Initial problems with the gas bleed resulted in a temporary suspension of firing tests, until a better venting system for the F-104 gun compartment was designed.

Today, after a period of neglect (when guns were thought to be rendered obsolete by missiles), the M61 in one form or another, is an integral part of the armament of modern fighters such as the F-15, F-18 and of course the F-16.

Recently, GE's armament division was acquired by Martin Marietta, so the M-61 is now officially known as the Lockheed-Martin M61A1 with the main difference being the A1 version having a linkless feed system.

*Construction*





Gun Maintenance at Hill AFB: the barrel assembly has already been removed, while the ammo drum is currently being lifted out. (F-16.net photo)

The multiple-barrels cannon offers both advantages in firing rate and in barrel life. As the 6 barrels revolve, they proceed through the different stages of the gun firing cycle. Each barrel is fired as it passes through the top position, after which the spent case is extracted and ejected, and a new round is fed and chambered - all at different positions on the circle described by the revolving barrel. This means that the firing rate is multiplied by the number of barrels, as six barrels are being loaded in parallel. Furthermore, since each barrel is only fired at 1/6th of the total firing rate, barrel wear and tear is not increased. Major drawback is that ammunition is consumed at a vast rate, requiring large ammo magazines.


The gun is fed through long linked belts of ammo, and although the gun appeared from early on in the development to be extremely reliable, the unprecedented rate of fire caused severe problems with these belts. The links connection the rounds often bent, broke or stretched, causing the gun to jam. Furthermore, provisions had to be made to dispose of the links. As a result, development of a new linkless feed system quickly started. Inside the drum, the rounds (tips to the middle) are placed in a giant Archimedean screw which moves them into the conveyor belt feeding the gun. In the F-16 and some other installations (M61A1 installations are tailor-made to each aircraft type), the empty case is transported back to the drum via a second conveyor belt. Both conveyor belts are housed in strong flexible ducts, and are powered by the gun, as well as the screw inside the drum which is driven via a high-power flexible coupling.







Most members of the M61A1 family are driven by the aircraft's hydraulic system, or (exceptionally) by the electrical power system. 35hp is needed to drive the gun at full firing rate, and barrels rotate anticlockwise when viewed in the direction of firing. The stationary breech housing has a deep elliptical slot in its inner wall in which run 6 cam followers, on the breech of each barrel. The followers are driven linearly in and out of the associated breech, successively chambering, firing and extracting the rounds. The breech rotor, to which are attached the 6 barrels, revolves inside the breech housing.

At the muzzle end, the 6 barrels are fitted in a clamp. This clamp can be replaced by other models, thereby offering a means to vary the barrel angles and create slightly different dispersion patterns. The inside of each barrel is provided with a twisted groove to give the rounds a spinning motion.

*F-16 Installation*
The M61 installation in the F-16 encountered some initial problems, most notably in September 1979 when firing the gun was temporarily forbidden. Two incidents had occurred in which gun firing resulted in uncommanded yawing movements. The cause of this problem was an accelerometer in the flight-control system being affected by the vibrations caused by the operation of the gun. The accelerometer fed false data into the flight computers, which initiated the yaw movements. Simple insulating the accelerometer from vibration solved the problem. All 106 operational F-16s delivered to date were retrofitted during 1980.







M61 A1 Vulcan installation in a BAF F-16B, with all access panels open. (F-16.net photo)

The ammo drum is located just aft of the cockpit, with the ammo loading access door in the bottom half of the starboard wing, next to the air intake. The gun itself is located in the upper port side of the fuselage, with the gun port on the port side of the cockpit. The ammo drum has a 511-round capacity.
The gun controller is the electronics unit which actually controls the firing of the gun. A voltage pulse is sent out from the gun controller to fire each round in a firing burst. At the end of a burst when the trigger is released, the gun clears itself. In the clearing operation, 5 to 9 unfired rounds are cycled through the gun without firing pulses, and are fed back to the ammo drum. These rounds are carried for the duration of the flight as spent rounds and cannot be used. The SMS (Stores Management System) has a rounds remaining counting function which counts each firing pulse from the gun controller and subtracts these from the loaded number of rounds. In the clearing operation, however, there are no pulses or any way of determining the actual number of rounds cleared, therefore the SMS assumes 7. Due to this fact there can be a discrepancy between the rounds remaining on the SCP and the actual number of rounds left to be fired. This discrepancy can become larger with increasing number of clearings.

*Operational Use*
The gun takes about 0.3 seconds to wind up to the full rate of fire, and half a second to wind down again. Some critics (notably defense analyst Pierre Sprey in a paper called _First Rounds Count_) argue that the aim is at it truest when the pilot pulls the trigger, and that it starts wandering off almost immediately.






A close-up of the gunport of a Dutch F-16B after a live-firing exercise. Hot gasses from the muzzle have left carbon traces, which -if not removed- corode the paint. (F-16.net photo)




Close up of the M61 gunport on a Norwegian F-16A. The copper color is copper-grease, applied to the gunport to protect it from the hot gasses during firing. Burns from the gasses are difficult to clean after a firing period. (F-16.net photo)


Therefore, the 0.3 seconds delay would cause the gun to fire just _after_ the piper was best aligned with the target. A revolver cannon such as the Mauser BK27 (fitted in the Tornado) does not have this problem, as it reaches its maximum rate of fire instantly. A simple calculation however shows that the M61 fires 70 rounds in the first second (6,000 rounds/minute = 100/second. 30% of the first second is wasted on winding up, so that leaves 70 rounds fired in the first second). The BK27 fires at 1,700 rpm, or 28 rounds per second.





In order to fire the same amount of rounds in the first second, you'd still need 3 BK27's in stead of one Vulcan - quite a challenge to fit them in the limited space available in an F-16!


The rate of fire of 6,000 rpm or 100 rps means that shells are spaced by 0.01 sec. A MiG-29, with a length of 56ft 5in (17.20m) and 90? angle-off (i.e. with a direction of flight perpendicular to the direction of flight of the F-16), flying at 543kts (1,000 km/h) or 278m/sec travels 2.78m in 0.01 sec. Therefore, the Fulcrum will be hit at least 5-6 times if the aim is true (17.2/2.78=6.187).

*Specifications*
*Sound*
Due to the extremely high rate of fire of the Vulcan, it is impossible to distinguish between individual 'shots'. Quite different from the typical movie sound-effects, the M61 sounds more like a heavy concrete drill. The 5 sec. sound fragment is actually from a VADS (Vulcan Air Defense System), used by a.o. the Belgian Air Force for point defense of its airfields. Unfortunately, only the .AU file format is currently available - most browser however support this format.

*Ammunition*
The components that make up a complete round are a brass cartridge case, an electric primer,propellant powder, and the projectile. The projectile is fired when an electrical pulse is applied to the primer. The resulting flame passes through a gas vent leading to the propellant chamber and ignites the propellant. As the propellant burns, it forms a gas which forces the projectile through the gun barrel. The only significant difference between the five types of ammunition is in the projectile. Located at the rear of all projectiles is a band of soft metal that seats in the grooves of the gun barrel. The grooves in the barrel are twisted so that the projectile receives a rotating motion as it travels through and leaves the gun barrel. This rotation is induced to provide stability in flight. The soft band also serves to prevent the propelling gas from escaping past the projectile.









*Dummy Ammunition*
The dummy ammunition color code may be either bronze or shades of gray or tan. The case will be steel or plastic. Dummy ammunition is used to check out the gun system.

*M55A1/A2 Target Practice Round (M220 TP Tracer Round)*






The M55A1 and M55A2 target practice (TP) round is ball ammunition, with a body made of steel. The projectile is hollow and does not contain a filler.


*M53 Armor-Piercing Incendiary Round*






The body of the M53 armor-piercing incendiary (API) projectile is composed of solid steel. The nose of the projectile is made of aluminum alloy, charged with an incendiary composition, and sealed with a closure disk. The projectile does not require a fuze because it ignites upon impact.


*M56 High Explosive Incendiary Round (XM242 HEI Tracer)*






The M56 high-explosive incendiary (HEI) round contains an HEI projectile. The round is used against aircraft and light targets. The projectile explodes with an incendiary effect after penetrating the surface of the target. HEI projectiles require a fuze which has a delay arming distance of 20 to 35 feet from the muzzle of the gun. Centrifugal force, created by the projectile spin, allows the detonator to align with the firing pin and the booster, thereby arming the round. Upon impact, the projectile presses into its target, crushing the nose of the fuze and forcing the firing pin against the detonator. The booster, initiated by the detonator, causes the projectile to explode.


*PGU-28*
Starting with block 50 (as far as the F-16 is concerned anyway), provisions have been made to fire the new 'hotter, faster, farther' PGU-28 round. It reputedly travels three times as far as the standard M53 round, effectively closing the gap between the Sidewinder minimum engagement range and the gun's maximum engagement range.



_Ammunition Specifications_
* Weight (lbs) * *Length (in)* *Diameter (in)
All-up* *Projectile* *Overall* *Case* *Projectile* *Projectile
M55A1 * 0.56 0.22 6.62 4.02 2.98 0.79
*M55A2* 0.56 0.22 6.62 4.02 2.98 0.79
*M220 Tracer * 0.56 0.22 6.62 4.02 2.98 0.79
*M53 API * 0.57 0.22 6.62 4.02 2.98 0.79
*M56 HEI * 0.56 0.22 6.62 4.02 3.03 0.79
*XM242 HEI Tracer* 0.56 0.22 6.62 4.02 3.03 0.79


*Specifications*
*Length:* 1,875mm (73.8in)

*Weight:* 120kg (265lbs)

*Muzzle Velocity:* 1,036m/s (3,400ft/s)

*Rate of Fire:* Max 6,600 rps (can be set to 4,000 or 6,000)

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## hassan1



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## IrbiS

*BAE Systems AN/APX-113(V) IFF *

*Introduction*
The AN/APX-113(V) combined interrogator/transponder (CIT) is a development of the AN/APX-111 in service on Kuwaiti F/A-18 Hornets. It was developed for the F-16 Fighting Falcon and is presently used for the Block 15 A/B MLU, Block 20 A/B, Block 30/32, Block 40, Block 50/52 C/D, and Block 60 aircraft. The system’s versatility is demonstrated by other applications, which include ASW and surveillance helicopters, aerostats, MiG-29 Fulcrum updates, Japan’s F-2 fighter, and other international platforms. The AN/APX-113(V) CIT includes mode S Elementary and Enhanced Surveillance (ELS and EHS) capability and has an AIMS-approved mode 5 growth path.

*Description*
The AN/APX-113 is supported by the BAE Systems KIV-78 crypto computer. The KIV-78 crypto computer was developed for simultaneous encryption and decryption for interrogator and transponder elements for mode 4 and/or mode 5. The APX-113CIT gives an aircraft, in addition to the onboard radar, the ability to autonomously detect and identify airborne targets at extended range. The APX-113 is credited with a maximum effective range of 100nm, presumably in the active (interrogation) mode.

*Aircraft platforms*

F-15K Slam Eagle
F-16 Fighting Falcon
MiG-29 Fulcrum

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## Hurter




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## Donatello

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> *BAE Systems AN/APX-113(V) IFF *
> 
> *Introduction*
> The AN/APX-113(V) combined interrogator/transponder (CIT) is a development of the AN/APX-111 in service on Kuwaiti F/A-18 Hornets. It was developed for the F-16 Fighting Falcon and is presently used for the Block 15 A/B MLU, Block 20 A/B, Block 30/32, Block 40, Block 50/52 C/D, and Block 60 aircraft. The system’s versatility is demonstrated by other applications, which include ASW and surveillance helicopters, aerostats, MiG-29 Fulcrum updates, Japan’s F-2 fighter, and other international platforms. The AN/APX-113(V) CIT includes mode S Elementary and Enhanced Surveillance (ELS and EHS) capability and has an AIMS-approved mode 5 growth path.
> 
> *Description*
> The AN/APX-113 is supported by the BAE Systems KIV-78 crypto computer. The KIV-78 crypto computer was developed for simultaneous encryption and decryption for interrogator and transponder elements for mode 4 and/or mode 5. The APX-113CIT gives an aircraft, in addition to the onboard radar, the ability to autonomously detect and identify airborne targets at extended range. The APX-113 is credited with a maximum effective range of 100nm, presumably in the active (interrogation) mode.
> 
> *Aircraft platforms*
> 
> F-15K Slam Eagle
> F-16 Fighting Falcon
> MiG-29 Fulcrum
> View attachment 181470
> View attachment 181471
> View attachment 181475



Hmm, it mentions the transmit power as 2.4kW but says the consumption is 200W..........what's going on?


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## IrbiS

Donatello said:


> Hmm, it mentions the transmit power as 2.4kW but says the consumption is 200W..........what's going on?


it should be saying for processing sub-system only. Data is official from BAE Systems


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## Donatello

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> it should be saying for processing sub-system only. Data is official from BAE Systems



2.4kW is a lot of transmit power for an IFF system. What are the peak figures for the APG68 radar?


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## IrbiS

Donatello said:


> 2.4kW is a lot of transmit power for an IFF system. What are the peak figures for the APG68 radar?


Look at the range too. Should be b/w 5-6kw


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## PakArmyFTW

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 181317


This has to be the worst photoshop job I've seen in a while....


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## N/A

Does Pakistan have BVRM missiles on their F16S AND JF17S


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## Viper0011.

SquadronLeaderDin said:


> Does Pakistan have BVRM missiles on their F16S AND JF17S



I see you recently joined this forum. The answer is yes. But you should also do some research on here before posting such basic questions. There is plenty of information if you cared to look. In fact, the same thread you posted, have plenty of details and even pictures on this subject.

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## N/A

orangzaib said:


> I see you recently joined this forum. The answer is yes. But you should also do some research on here before posting such basic questions. There is plenty of information if you cared to look. In fact, the same thread you posted, have plenty of details and even pictures on this subject.


I knew that they had BVRMs but other members in this forum were stating that the USA doesn't allow Pakistan to use Aim-120 AMRAAM on their F-16s


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## Viper0011.

SquadronLeaderDin said:


> I knew that they had BVRMs but other members in this forum were stating that the USA doesn't allow Pakistan to use Aim-120 AMRAAM on their F-16s



That's not the question you asked in your previous post. But the US provided AMRAAMS to Pakistan. These were given to an ally to protect themselves. These can be used to defend Pakistan obviously.


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## IrbiS

Image of Los Angeles taken from 137km by an F-16 at 40,000ft, into the sun and through the haze using DB-110.[Image : UTC Aerospace Systems]

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## A2Z

F


SquadronLeaderDin said:


> Does Pakistan have BVRM missiles on their F16S AND JF17S


F-16 C/D block 52 is bvr capable and JF-17 block 2 will be.


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## N/A

A2Z said:


> F
> 
> F-16 C/D block 52 is bvr capable and JF-17 block 2 will be.


all MLU F-16S are bvr capable


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## razgriz19

A2Z said:


> F
> 
> F-16 C/D block 52 is bvr capable and JF-17 block 2 will be.



F-16A with AMRAAMs

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## Donatello

SquadronLeaderDin said:


> I knew that they had BVRMs but other members in this forum were stating that the USA doesn't allow Pakistan to use Aim-120 AMRAAM on their F-16s



Use your common sense please. Pakistan purchased 500 AIM120s.....if Pakistan cannot use them on F-16s, where do you expect them to use it? On board C130s?


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## fatman17

Donatello said:


> Use your common sense please. Pakistan purchased 500 AIM120s.....if Pakistan cannot use them on F-16s, where do you expect them to use it? On board C130s?



Hey not a bad idea mate.


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## Viper0011.

Donatello said:


> Use your common sense please. Pakistan purchased 500 AIM120s.....if Pakistan cannot use them on F-16s, where do you expect them to use it? On board C130s?



If you had say a couple of larger radars data linked on two jets and then a tertiary link back to the C130, you can probably take out an entire squadron through C130 being a missile truck IMO. The radars on the planes upfront have to be big to be able to target 6-8 jets at a time. And you keep the C130 in the back and still protect it. Not a bad idea. 

Or a basic radar plane like the Erieye (not all features and associated expensive items, just a large radar), with a C130 behind with missiles can probably fire missiles at 20-40 jets depending upon the Radar's ability. Still not bad.

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## fatman17

The New M-7 software upgrade package for the F16s apparantly offers multiple advanced capabilities. Do we know what these are? And no PAF dosnt have it yet.


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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> The New M-7 software upgrade package for the F16s apparantly offers multiple advanced capabilities. Do we know what these are? And no PAF dosnt have it yet.



- The new major capabilities currently being integrated via M6.5/M7+ include GPS inertial navigation set (GPS/INS) updates to improve targeting accuracy and GPS security, AIM-120D, joint mission planning system (JMPS).

- M7.2+ Minor Tape is currently in early stages of program planning, candidate definition and test HW procurement to incorporate DoD mandates such as Airborne Dependent Surveillance Broadcast (ADS B-Out) as well as other Combat Air Forces (CAF) candidates including color display and Advanced Defensive Electronic Warfare (EW) System coordination

- OFP M-tapes are updated continually to integrate new weapons, targeting pods, improved avionics. M6.2+ has entered development test and evaluation (DTE) and is scheduled to field in FY 2014. M6.5+/M7+ is in Phase III development with M6.5+ common candidates to include Universal Armament Interface (UAI) updates and Embedded GPS inertial (EGI) updates and M7+ candidates to include AIM 9X Block II.






http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/budget/fy2015/usaf-peds/0207133f_7_pb_2015.pdf

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## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> The New M-7 software upgrade package for the F16s apparantly offers multiple advanced capabilities. Do we know what these are? And no PAF dosnt have it yet.


When the news came, I was about to check out but on second thought, didn't want to because we're not gonna have it.


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## Donatello

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> When the news came, I was about to check out but on second thought, didn't want to because we're not gonna have it.



What added features does it bring?


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## IrbiS



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## IrbiS

U.S Department of Defense AMRAAM Spending






www.bga-aeroweb.com/Defense/Budget-Data/FY2015/AIM-120-AMRAAM-USAF-PROC-FY2015.pdf


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## Kompromat

More F-16s on cards.

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## Hurter

Horus said:


> More F-16s on cards.



New or Used?


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## Viper0011.

Junaid B said:


> New or Used?



Both I think.

If I was in the PAF, I'd even look at used -15's. Japan and Saudis are about to retire like 200 of them. But even -16's in numbers isn't bad. 120 / 150 F-16's (new and used), with 150 JFT block II and 100 JFT block III's, with 60-80 J-31 and potentially 60-80 J-11's or 16's for the Naval role, supported by home built AWACS, two tiers of long range SAMS / area denial systems would pretty much complete the defensive posture for many years to come. This would be about 500+ jets and a heck of a defensive force!

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## Hurter

Viper0011. said:


> Both I think.
> 
> If I was in the PAF, I'd even look at used -15's. Japan and Saudis are about to retire like 200 of them. But even -16's in numbers isn't bad. 120 / 150 F-16's (new and used), with 150 JFT block II and 100 JFT block III's, with 60-80 J-31 and potentially 60-80 J-11's or 16's for the Naval role, supported by home built AWACS, two tiers of long range SAMS / area denial systems would pretty much complete the defensive posture for many years to come. This would be about 500+ jets and a heck of a defensive force!



Well if this is the case then I would want PAF to have used Block 60/62 if available.. At least they will be equipped with latest technology. F15s might not be on offer. But if PAF consider this option, it would be much better if budget allows.


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## N/A

Junaid B said:


> Well if this is the case then I would want PAF to have used Block 60/62 if available.. At least they will be equipped with latest technology. F15s might not be on offer. But if PAF consider this option, it would be much better if budget allows.


THE ODDS OF PAF INDUCTING MORE F16S THIS YEAR IS SLIM, AND INDUCTING ANOTHER PLATFORM IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY


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## Viper0011.

Junaid B said:


> *Well if this is the case then I would want PAF to have used Block 60/62 if available..* .



Block 60 is almost the latest edition in the -60 family. There are no used ones as these were first delivered to Israel and UAE just a few years ago. Plus these would be super expensive for the PAF. The best bang for the buck is used block 40's with upgrades (Advanced radar, etc). These can readily defend your sovereignty against the Indian threat (that's the only real threat the PAF has, even that might fade away of both the countries can get involved with serious trade).

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## princefaisal

Viper0011. said:


> Block 60 is almost the latest edition in the -60 family. There are no used ones as these were first delivered to Israel and UAE just a few years ago. Plus these would be super expensive for the PAF. The best bang for the buck is used block 40's with upgrades (Advanced radar, etc). These can readily defend your sovereignty against the Indian threat (that's the only real threat the PAF has, even that might fade away of both the countries can get involved with serious trade).


I think existing block 52 and MLU'd can be upgraded to Block 60 level. Only AESA radar is the addition.


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## Viper0011.

princefaisal said:


> I think existing block 52 and MLU'd can be upgraded to Block 60 level. Only AESA radar is the addition.



The cost of such upgrades would negate the cost effectiveness of these jets and will eliminate the "bang for the buck" deal as its a much used platform. 
A much better option is to order block 52 with options of AESA. The difference in a Block 52 new with AESA wouldn't be as much compared to a Block 40 being upgraded to a Block 60 level.


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## Shabi1

princefaisal said:


> I think existing block 52 and MLU'd can be upgraded to Block 60 level. Only AESA radar is the addition.



F-16 Block-60 is not just a AESA radar its a very different aircraft internally as well with different data bus, Electronic warfare and IRST along with improved performance specs. The APG-80 radar used on the Block-60 is out of production hence the new aircraft UAE is getting are all Block-61 with Northrop Grumman's Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR).

Its too early for Pakistan to get its F-16s upgraded with AESA but if it ever wanted to, the option it would have would be to get them upgraded to F-16V (Viper). The Viper upgrade is the latest F-16 upgrade project and includes the SABR AESA. I think Taiwan and Singapore are getting the Viper upgrades.

F-16V Is Latest 'Viper' Variant for Fighter Market | Defense Media Network


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## WishLivePak

Viper0011. said:


> Both I think.
> 
> If I was in the PAF, I'd even look at used -15's. Japan and Saudis are about to retire like 200 of them. But even -16's in numbers isn't bad. 120 / 150 F-16's (new and used), with 150 JFT block II and 100 JFT block III's, with 60-80 J-31 and potentially 60-80 J-11's or 16's for the Naval role, supported by home built AWACS, two tiers of long range SAMS / area denial systems would pretty much complete the defensive posture for many years to come. This would be about 500+ jets and a heck of a defensive force!


F15s are for air superiorty mostly, unless I'm wrong.

Pakistan right now has a greater internal issue, for which multi role crafts, like F16, are needed. I also don't forsee Pakistan and India fighting in the next decade, by which time those F15s will be aging. So that's just waste of money.

Rather invest that money into our air programs, or make jf17 better or purchase used f16s. No need to introduce a new kind into fleet.

Also Pakistan isn't getting J11.


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## nomi007

* Pakistan's Military Leadership Corruption Expo-sed in F-16 Deal - Shameful Story by Rauf Klasra *

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## Windjammer

While PAF normally keeps it's assets well dispersed and hidden from prying eyes, however Shahbaz Air Base seems rather active these days with assets either in air or parked on ORP.

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## Areesh

Windjammer said:


> While PAF normally keeps it's assets well dispersed and hidden from prying eyes, however Shahbaz Air Base seems rather active these days with assets either in air or parked on ORP.



Any specific reason for that buddy?

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## Windjammer

Areesh said:


> Any specific reason for that buddy?


One reason could be for carrying out round the clock operations against the Talibans. ??

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## Bratva

Areesh said:


> Any specific reason for that buddy?




Continuous airstrikes in Khyber and Zarb e Azb. Time sensitive strikes demand aircrafts to be readied for flight as soon as they receive order

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## A2Z

Saudis aren't retiring their F-15s they are upgrading them and as far as Japan is concerned they wont let them go until they get F-35. Even if there were F-15s available PAF would never go for twin engine even if US has allowed the deal.
All PAF must do is get as much used F-16s possible and focus on JF-17, its something that is sanction free. Forget about upgrading F-16s to AESA that never gonna happen.

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## Last Samuri

Usa & Indian relationship will really take off this decade.

Usa military exports to india will rise

trade to triple between them to $300 billion in 5 - 7 years

Indian Americans have strong lobby in Washington

the question will the usa back and service your f16 against their strategic friend india.

the f16 will be in danger of lacking critical spares in future

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## NKVD

Last Samuri said:


> Usa & Indian relationship will really take off this decade.
> 
> Usa military exports to india will rise
> 
> trade to triple between them to $300 billion in 5 - 7 years
> 
> Indian Americans have strong lobby in Washington
> 
> the question will the usa back and service your f16 against their strategic friend india.
> 
> the f16 will be in danger of lacking critical spares in future


Kindly Don't post Off-topic matter in dedicated Threads to Avoid Ban

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## nomi007

Infographic chart on F-16 Aerobatic maneuvering.
The MLU airframes are very agile machines as compare to their predecessors (thanks to improved computers )

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## Najam Khan

Windjammer said:


> While PAF normally keeps it's assets well dispersed and hidden from prying eyes, however Shahbaz Air Base seems rather active these days with assets either in air or parked on ORP.


I see its a maintenance day 
BTW ADA / QR aircraft are not sitting so open in the sun. 

Pakistani Govt should look into this, such "eye-openers accounts" need to be taken up with Google. We have already lost enough because of these Google Images available to anyone.

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## Windjammer

Najam Khan said:


> I see its a maintenance day
> BTW ADA / QR aircraft are not sitting so open in the sun.
> 
> Pakistani Govt should look into this, such "eye-openers accounts" need to be taken up with Google. We have already lost enough because of these Google Images available to anyone.


I did convey such message with a query to an authoritative source.... also dismayed at the proximity of built up area next to the taxi track.

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## nomi007

nomi007 said:


> Infographic chart on F-16 Aerobatic maneuvering.
> The MLU airframes are very agile machines as compare to their predecessors (thanks to improved computers )
> View attachment 187722


*with more detail*

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## Viper0011.

nomi007 said:


> *with more detail*
> View attachment 187990



This is an aerobatic display map. The ones you show in Islamabad on your Independence Day, etc (with some changes). This is sort of the display map they follow when they do aerobatic display.

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## razgriz19

Bratva said:


> Continuous airstrikes in Khyber and Zarb e Azb. Time sensitive strikes demand aircrafts to be readied for flight as soon as they receive order



but why would they fly out from Shabaz base?
Sargodha is much closer, and with greater aircraft ready on battle station


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## syedali73

Najam Khan said:


> I see its a maintenance day
> BTW ADA / QR aircraft are not sitting so open in the sun.
> 
> Pakistani Govt should look into this, such "eye-openers accounts" need to be taken up with Google. We have already lost enough because of these Google Images available to anyone.


Perhaps we need large underground maintenance facilities. Should not be difficult to build about the size of an aircraft carrier.


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## airmarshal

That helicopter seems rather large. Not Mi-17 in my opinion. 

So F-16s fly from Shehbaz base in Jacobabad to FATA? Thats a long range to fly. Why dont they from a nearer airbase?


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## Najam Khan

syedali73 said:


> Perhaps we need large underground maintenance facilities. Should not be difficult to build about the size of an aircraft carrier.


Such underground facilities are operationally possible to make on a new location (provided lots of funds are available). Mega construction on existing bases (in present security situation) is not viable option.

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## Windjammer



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## Donatello

Najam Khan said:


> Such underground facilities are operationally possible to make on a new location (provided lots of funds are available). Mega construction on existing bases (in present security situation) is not viable option.


Sir, the news was that PAF spent 300 million USD on Shahbaz Airbase setup to prep for the F-16s

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## @nline

Long Live Pakistan Fazia
پاک فضایہ زندہ باد

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## HRK

*Pakistan Air Force F-16 and F-7P Induction Documentary*
(A vintage Documentary of PTV made in 1989)






An unfortunate thing that we were expecting to have BVR fleet of F-16 in the year 1994-95, but we attained that capability in the year 2014 a delay of 20 year due to Pressler amendment

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## DrWatson775

Does PAF have JSOWs on the F16s?


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## HRK

DrWatson775 said:


> Does PAF have JSOWs on the F16s?



i believe no ...


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## syedali73

HRK said:


> i believe no ...


Even though in 2006 Hindustan Times reported the delivery of AGM-154 to Pakistan. 

Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 8:35:35 AM by mylife

*US provides Pak with missiles before Bush visit 
*
Press Trust of India

Islamabad, March 1, 2006|19:30 IST

The US has provided Pakistan Air Force (PAF) with AGM-154 'Beyond Visual Range (BVR)' stand-off missiles, ostensibly to target terrorist hideouts.

While state-run news agency said Pakistan has attained another landmark in modern missile technology by producing a joint standoff weapon system capable of hitting "over-the-horizon" targets with accuracy, 'Pakistan Observer' newspaper said the AGM-154 system was provided by US ahead of President George W Bush's visit to the country.

According to the daily, the announcement of Pakistan acquiring the BVR missile system came at the Corps Commanders meeting presided over President Pervez Musharraf on Tuesday.

The system uses technologies called 'Integrated Global Positioning System' and Inner-shell Management System Navigation and could engage targets 70 km away.

This apparently is the first BVR missiles the PAF has acquired that could be fired from a distance without coming into visual contact with the enemy.

It could be fired from fighter jets fitted with sensors.

The missile was provided by US reportedly to stem criticism arising out of its spy planes firing similar missiles at a village in Bajore tribal agency last month to target Al-Qaeda second in command Ayaman al-Zawahiri killing upto 18 civilians.

As part of equipping Pakistan with military hardware to fight terrorists, US has granted approval to sell latest models of F-16s and supplied a fleet of helicopters, transport and sea surveillance planes.

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## Sana Khan Asad

very good pakistan army.


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## HRK

syedali73 said:


> Even though in 2006 Hindustan Times reported the delivery of AGM-154 to Pakistan.
> 
> Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 8:35:35 AM by mylife
> 
> *US provides Pak with missiles before Bush visit
> *
> Press Trust of India
> 
> Islamabad, March 1, 2006|19:30 IST
> 
> The US has provided Pakistan Air Force (PAF) with AGM-154 'Beyond Visual Range (BVR)' stand-off missiles, ostensibly to target terrorist hideouts.
> 
> While state-run news agency said Pakistan has attained another landmark in modern missile technology by producing a joint standoff weapon system capable of hitting "over-the-horizon" targets with accuracy, 'Pakistan Observer' newspaper said the AGM-154 system was provided by US ahead of President George W Bush's visit to the country.
> 
> According to the daily, the announcement of Pakistan acquiring the BVR missile system came at the Corps Commanders meeting presided over President Pervez Musharraf on Tuesday.
> 
> The system uses technologies called 'Integrated Global Positioning System' and Inner-shell Management System Navigation and could engage targets 70 km away.
> 
> This apparently is the first BVR missiles the PAF has acquired that could be fired from a distance without coming into visual contact with the enemy.
> 
> It could be fired from fighter jets fitted with sensors.
> 
> The missile was provided by US reportedly to stem criticism arising out of its spy planes firing similar missiles at a village in Bajore tribal agency last month to target Al-Qaeda second in command Ayaman al-Zawahiri killing upto 18 civilians.
> 
> As part of equipping Pakistan with military hardware to fight terrorists, US has granted approval to sell latest models of F-16s and supplied a fleet of helicopters, transport and sea surveillance planes.



As far as I remember yes there were some rumours regarding AGM-154 and the basis of these rumours was the acquisition of H2/H4 which people at that time mistook as JSOW

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## Najam Khan

syedali73 said:


> Even though in 2006 Hindustan Times reported the delivery of AGM-154 to Pakistan.
> 
> Posted on Thursday, March 02, 2006 8:35:35 AM by mylife
> 
> *US provides Pak with missiles before Bush visit
> *
> Press Trust of India
> 
> Islamabad, March 1, 2006|19:30 IST
> 
> The US has provided Pakistan Air Force (PAF) with AGM-154 'Beyond Visual Range (BVR)' stand-off missiles, ostensibly to target terrorist hideouts.
> 
> While state-run news agency said Pakistan has attained another landmark in modern missile technology by producing a joint standoff weapon system capable of hitting "over-the-horizon" targets with accuracy, 'Pakistan Observer' newspaper said the AGM-154 system was provided by US ahead of President George W Bush's visit to the country.
> 
> According to the daily, the announcement of Pakistan acquiring the BVR missile system came at the Corps Commanders meeting presided over President Pervez Musharraf on Tuesday.
> 
> The system uses technologies called 'Integrated Global Positioning System' and Inner-shell Management System Navigation and could engage targets 70 km away.
> 
> This apparently is the first BVR missiles the PAF has acquired that could be fired from a distance without coming into visual contact with the enemy.
> 
> It could be fired from fighter jets fitted with sensors.
> 
> The missile was provided by US reportedly to stem criticism arising out of its spy planes firing similar missiles at a village in Bajore tribal agency last month to target Al-Qaeda second in command Ayaman al-Zawahiri killing upto 18 civilians.
> 
> As part of equipping Pakistan with military hardware to fight terrorists, US has granted approval to sell latest models of F-16s and supplied a fleet of helicopters, transport and sea surveillance planes.



Thats untrue, a typical Indian *over-reporting* just to create hype about Pakistan's military capabilities.

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## black-hawk_101

When will PAF get back their 14 F-16s?


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## IrbiS

black-hawk_101 said:


> When will PAF get back their 14 F-16s?


Which ones?


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## black-hawk_101

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> Which ones?


Nice.............................................................


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## IrbiS

black-hawk_101 said:


> Nice.............................................................


Seriously I'm not able to tell which ones are you talking about right now

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## black-hawk_101

14 are still remaining.

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## Imran Khan

black-hawk_101 said:


> When will PAF get back their 14 F-16s?


forget them USnwill release them when they have nothing left they went to 510 TW at Edwards AFB for use in the USAF Test Pilot school.aggressors sqn fucked them hard really hard

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## Viper0011.

black-hawk_101 said:


> When will PAF get back their 14 F-16s?



You got 18 block 52's. I think more used ones are under discussion. Which 14 are you talking about? And these are not "PAF's" F-16's. These are US's F-16's which have been (and probably will be) given to Pakistan.

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## mosu

black-hawk_101 said:


> When will PAF get back their 14 F-16s?


Nishan

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## nomi007

detail info how its work

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## Dr. Strangelove

Viper0011. said:


> You got 18 block 52's. I think more used ones are under discussion. Which 14 are you talking about? And these are not "PAF's" F-16's. These are US's F-16's which have been (and probably will be) given to Pakistan.


the ones we paid for in late 90s but never recieved
peace

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## zeeshanvita

Yesterday Raheel Shareef met Norwagian defence minister i hope something constructive comes out of it..

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## DrWatson775

BAE Electronic Systems has been awarded a $221 million contract to provide equipment for F-16 fighter jets sold to Morocco, Egypt, Oman, Pakistan, Indonesia and Portugal, the Air Force announced on Tuesday. - See more at: NH Business Newsreel: BAE lands $221 million F-16 contract | New Hampshire

NH Business Newsreel: BAE lands $221 million F-16 contract | New Hampshire

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## black-hawk_101

Viper0011. said:


> You got 18 block 52's. I think more used ones are under discussion. Which 14 are you talking about? And these are not "PAF's" F-16's. These are US's F-16's which have been (and probably will be) given to Pakistan.



Yes they might be coming soon. Also, will PAF going to order more 38 F-16s Block-52s?

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## IrbiS

black-hawk_101 said:


> Yes they might be coming soon. Also, will PAF going to order more 38 F-16s Block-52s?


And WHEN did PAF REQUESTED ANOTHER 38 -52s and U.S Approved it let alone the ordering part?

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## black-hawk_101

Umair Khan Niazi said:


> And WHEN did PAF REQUESTED ANOTHER 38 -52s and U.S Approved it let alone the ordering part?


I am saying will PAF going to do that?

Also sir you are senior member, I would like to ask one more thing. Heard that Pak loan has crossed over a $100 Billions++ which is really worrying too much. Why not Govt. push the privatization quickly and make it possible to sell their companies within 1-2 years and finalize deals.

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## IrbiS

black-hawk_101 said:


> I am saying will PAF going to do that?
> 
> Also sir you are senior member, I would like to ask one more thing. Heard that Pak loan has crossed over a $100 Billions++ which is really worrying too much. Why not Govt. push the privatization quickly and make it possible to sell their companies within 1-2 years and finalize deals.


PAF should and sure will, so do I want 'em to get as many as possible ASAP. But it'll take time the availability being an issue not mentioning the U.S approval necessary for direct buying or from third parties either for new or used examples which seems most likely to be PAF's choice for future procurements, As production lines drawing toward end; We'll have to wait for others to free some machines for us. And money too.
Debt per capita is over 90,000 RS but I'm in no mood to discuss ishaq dar and ganja s**t on this thread.

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## IrbiS

McDonnell-Douglas ACES II - F-16 Fighting Falcon version



The F-16 Fighting Falcon is equipped with this version of the ACES II. It replaced an Escapac seat used in the prototypes and early aircraft. This version differs from most of the rest of the ACES II seats in the configuration of the main ejection handles. The F-16 and the F-22 ACES II seats use a center-pull handle similar to that of the Escapac seats. They also vary in the angle of the seat back to the seat pan which is more obtuse to allow for better comfort in the cockpit. The F-16 ACES II is setup with a seat back angle of 30 degrees to allow for the pilot's physiological response to the G-forces of combat maneuvering. (The F-22 is closer to a 22 degree tilt for the same reason. The large bubble canopy of the F-16 is stressed to resist birdstrikes and can not be effectively penetrated by the seat ejection force, hence the seat is not fitted with canopy breakers.

The *Advanced Concept Ejection Seat (ACES)* Was developed to provide a standard Ejection seat to be utilized in all United States Air Force jets from the mid-1970s. It was first flown in a A-10 Thunderbolt II from the Fairchild Republic Co. at the Farmingdale Long Island (N.Y.) plant in April 1978. The driving reasons for the development of the ACES II were to standardize on one type of ejection seat*- this would lead to reduction in training of both mechanics and pilots, also the design was intended to provide better performance in low altitude/adverse attitude conditions as well as to improve high speed seat stablity. It also allowed the government to purchase larger lots of spare parts.
The initial ACES II production contract was awarded to *McDonnell-Douglas Corp. (MDC)* in November 1976. The contract was a 'Leader/Follower' type contract which meant that MDC would be the Leader and would train the Follower to build the seat as well. *Weber Aircraft Co. (WAC)* was selected and trained as the follower. Thereafter, each additional contract from 1982-1990 was bid upon by both MCD and WAC, with the competition helping keep the unit cost low. In 1990, with fewer seats to be ordered, the entire production was awarded to McDonnell-Douglas Corp. Soon thereafter Weber Aircraft Co. ceased manufacturing ejection seats and concentrated on the manufacture of crew seats.

Production of the seats has totaled about 8000 as of May 1997, with some 416 non-combat and 10 combat ejections worldwide. The official USAF success rate is 94.4% in envelope, and 89.9% including out of envelope ejections. MCD manufactured some 6500 and WAC the remaining 1500.

Since its development it has been used in various forms in the following aircraft:

F-15 Eagle Has add-on Canopy Breakers
F-16 Fighting Falcon Center pull W/Trajectory Divergence rockets
A-10 Warthog
B-1B Lancer With arm and leg restraints
T-46A With Asymetrical Canopy Breakers
B-2 Spirit Has Flip-up Pitots
F-22 Raptor

The ACES II is a third-generation seat, capable of ejecting a pilot from zero-zero conditions up to maximum altitude and airspeeds in the 600 KEAS range. The peak catapult accelleration is about 12g, with a extra 2g pulse from a stabilizing rocket. The ACES II has three main operating modes, one each for the low speed/low altitude, medium speed, and high speed/high altitude. In Mode 1, which includes 0-0, the parachute is inflating in less than two seconds. In Mode 2 the chute is inflating in less than 6 seconds. Mode 3 deployment is delayed by the sequencer until the seat-man package reaches either Mode 2, or Mode 1 conditions, whichever comes first.

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## nomi007

*Panorama view of Ex-Jordanian AF F-16 ADF before delivery to PAF in 2014. *

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## nomi007

Russian Mig-29UB Fulcrum (its Camou is very close to PAF' F-16s)

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## Basel

nomi007 said:


> Russian Mig-29UB Fulcrum (its Camou is very close to PAF' F-16s)



Do you mean some version of Mig-29/35 may end up in PAF??

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## Manticore

Questions regarding PAF modernization | Page 2

please continue here as this thread is dedicated to f16s
@Tomyris

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## razgriz19

nomi007 said:


> Russian Mig-29UB Fulcrum (its Camou is very close to PAF' F-16s)



Its a Serbian Mig-29

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## black-hawk_101

nomi007 said:


> *Panorama view of Ex-Jordanian AF F-16 ADF before delivery to PAF in 2014. *



I think PAF had already received 16s F-16s from Jordan and may be more to be bought very soon. Its better for Jordan to collaborate with China over J-31s.

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## IrbiS

black-hawk_101 said:


> I think PAF had already received 16s F-16s from Jordan


13

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## PTI.KPK

Pakistan Air Force Zindabad.

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## IrbiS

*DB-110 Reconnaissance Pod Detailed*

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## Donatello

I am not sure if we can post this stuff here, there have been complaints of copyrights in the past.

@WebMaster @Oscar @Manticore @Chak Bamu

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## IrbiS

Donatello said:


> I am not sure if we can post this stuff here, there have been complaints of copyrights in the past.
> 
> @WebMaster @Oscar @Manticore @Chak Bamu


Complaints by users or someone else? It's the first thing on my mind and if it was that grave issue considering I took it from open source unprotected copy, I wouldn't have posted it. Anyway, if moderators think it should be deleted, they can go ahead and delete because I can't now. It's a good read btw, read it before it's gone. Don't worry they 'll catch me if they want

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## black-hawk_101

Why not Pakistan put up an offer to acquire all of the remaining Jordanian F-16s?

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## nomi007

black-hawk_101 said:


> Why not Pakistan put up an offer to acquire all of the remaining Jordanian F-16s?


o kaka situation in jordon is already worst 
2nd they replace ex-16s with better ones

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## black-hawk_101

nomi007 said:


> o kaka situation in jordon is already worst
> 2nd they replace ex-16s with better ones


No not at all. They should go for UAE Mirage-2000s and even bought Qatri's ones too. Moreover, they operate F-5s and KSA is selling F-5s which they can buy it easily.

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## nomi007

black-hawk_101 said:


> No not at all. They should go for UAE Mirage-2000s and even bought Qatri's ones too. Moreover, they operate F-5s and KSA is selling F-5s which they can buy it easily.


its just yours conspiracy

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## A2Z

I think PAF is no longer interested in ordering new F-16s, they are just looking to sweep as many 2nd F-16 as possible. European countries that are looking to replace their F-16 are best for Pakistan we can get their F-16s and get them MLUed by TAI and JF-17 must be the only new fighter we induct.
Btw the F-16s we got from Jordan have they gone through MLU (mid life upgrade) ?

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## TOPGUN

PAF always wanted to maintain a fleet of 100 + vipers and this will happen even if slowly may it be second hand and then be MLU ... as for the vipers bought from Jordan yes they are gone through MLU.


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## syed_yusuf

TOPGUN said:


> PAF always wanted to maintain a fleet of 100 + vipers and this will happen even if slowly may it be second hand and then be MLU ... as for the vipers bought from Jordan yes they are gone through MLU.



they have gone though MLU but not at the PAF F-16 mlu level. jordanian F-16 are at ADF level a much older mlu

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## DrWatson775

A2Z said:


> I think PAF is no longer interested in ordering new F-16s, they are just looking to sweep as many 2nd F-16 as possible. European countries that are looking to replace their F-16 are best for Pakistan we can get their F-16s and get them MLUed by TAI and JF-17 must be the only new fighter we induct.
> Btw the F-16s we got from Jordan have they gone through MLU (mid life upgrade) ?



Another 18 or so block 52s will always be welcome... if funding is available though.

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## A2Z

DrWatson775 said:


> Another 18 or so block 52s will always be welcome... if funding is available though.


PAF has the option of additional 18 blk52 but all the funds that are available are being mostly utilized for JF-17, and why not block 3 of thunder is expected to be as potent as blk52.

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## TOPGUN

syed_yusuf said:


> they have gone though MLU but not at the PAF F-16 mlu level. jordanian F-16 are at ADF level a much older mlu



Correct , I never said they were at PAF MLU level , I was answering the question general sense on MLU iam well aware they are ADF vipers thanks

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## nomi007

a Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System

Back-seat view in an F-16D




F-16MLU cockpit simulator





F-16C "Wide-angle" Head-Up Display

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## Sine Nomine

*This F-16 Viper Managed To Fly Back To Base Missing Half A Wing*




Last October there was a nearly fatal collision between two F-16 Vipers from the 125th Fighter Squadron of the Oklahoma Air National Guard. All we knew at the time was that one of the jets went down in a field after the pilot safely ejected, while the other managed to land with a damaged wing. But "damaged" was putting it lightly. Half of the wing was completely sheered off.




The extent of the damage is remarkable, with a massive portion of the wing ripped off like a shark took a chunk out of it mid-air. Even more remarkable is that the pilot of the stricken Viper was able to safely fly back to base, well over 100 miles from where the collision occurred.

The doomed flight was a 2-vs-1 air-to-air training mission over the Eureka Military Operating Area (MOA) in Kansas around 2 PM. The two-ship section was headed by an experienced Viper pilot, while his wingman was fairly new to the F-16. The first intercept occurred against a lone F-16 acting as the enemy without incident, the second was another story.

The jets flew in a combat spread formation towards the "enemy" jet Bandit. At the merge, the wingman initiated a left turn towards the F-16, which was passing between the two friendly jets. The flight lead misread that as a right turn and proceeded his own right turn towards the aircraft. With the flight lead not maintaining a continual visual on his wingman – likely concentrating on finding the enemy jet as the group entered into a tight-turning dogfight – the two jets in the "friendly" section flew into each other.

Here's the USAF's rendering of how it went down:








The wingman's jet sliced through his flight lead with his missile rail impacting the lead jet's F-16 from the wing root back. This sent the lead into a violent maneuver, with the wingman immediately calling for him to eject. Thankfully, the heavy G loads didn't prevent that. His aircraft pancaked into the ground moments later and he ended up landing less than 100 feet from its burning carcass.















910

Human error and a classic loss of situational awareness caused the mishap, but we can also draw a few other observations.

First off, it's a chilling reminder of just how fast things move up there and how a simple misjudgment or loss of visual on another aircraft can cost aircrew their lives. Secondly, it's astonishing that an F-16 – nicknamed the "Electric Jet" due to its fly-by-wire flight control system and electronic actuators – can lose half of a wing and still make it home safely. I'd be very interested to have an engineer explain just how the Viper's computers could account for that level of damage and keep the jet pointed in the right direction.

Although we've seen this kind of thing before (check the video below), the F-15's is a lifting body design, with much of its lift coming from the fuselage, along with the wings. Conversely, the Viper relies almost entirely on its wings for lift. Additionally, the F-15 does have an augmented stability control system, but it's not a fly-by-wire aircraft with "relaxed stability" and instead relies on traditional hydraulics to power its control surfaces.


*Although the incident was terrifying for all involved, at least no lives were lost, and Viper pilots around the world can feel a little safer knowing they could lose six feet of wing and the jet will still bring them home in one piece. That's something Hornet pilots have known for some time: *





This F-16 Viper Managed To Fly Back To Base Missing Half A Wing

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## khanasifm

F16 vs. F15

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## Windjammer



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## nomi007

*DB110 Aerial Reconnaissance Pod*




Share on email Share on printfriendly Share on pocket More Sharing Services0




The Goodrich’s DB-110 reconnaissance pod is a digital, real-time, tactical reconnaissance system designed to capture images in day or night, using electro-optical sensor technology. The pod can transmit Images via datalink to the ground in real time. The system is produced Goodrich’s Surveillance and Reconnaissance Systems (SRS) team based in Chelmsford, Mass. The data link ground stations are designed and built by a Goodrich facility in Malvern, U.K. for the Poland Peace Sky Program.







The DB-110 is a long-range oblique sensor to provide long-range, medium range and short-range imaging systems to support standoff and penetrating missions. It can be operated autonomously, by the pod’s reconnaissance management system. Imagery is viewed on the F-16’s cockpit video display, enabling the pilot to verify targets and conduct tasks such as battle damage assessment. This system allows the pilot increased flexibility over current fielded systems.

The DB-110/RAPTOR (Reconnaissance Airborne Pod for Tornado) delivers high definition imagery in the visible and infrared bands at extremely long ranges. Its offers broad area coverage, spot and stereo coverage. The systems use an 11″ aperture telescope with adjustable focal length of 110″ in the visible range and 55″ in the IR range. The EO assembly is mounted on a two-axis stabilized maintaining 180° field of regard across, and ± 20° along the line of flight. The system has two-axis line of sight stabilization, and is compensated for ground speed range of 0.1 to 1.6 Mach, at altitude above 10,000 feet. It provides variable overlap capability, from 10 to 100% and panoramic scanning (4° to 28°).

September 2006: Poland will soon receive the first of seven DB-110 airborne reconnaissance pods to equip its newly procured F-16C/Ds (Peace Sky). DB-110 (known as Raptor) is built by Goodrich and is operational with the U.K. Royal Air Force Tornados, used during Operation Iraqi Freedom It is also in operation on the OP-3C aircraft flown by the Japanese Maritime Staff Office and pakistan f-16s

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## nomi007

*AGM-65 Maverick*

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## Sine Nomine



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## IrbiS

@LonE_WolF's courtesy

MLU with SNIPER ATP

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## fatman17

The 13 ex - jordanian F16s cost the PAF US $ 75 mill or slightly under 6m per aircraft. Not a bad deal considering the paucity of funds these days.

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## nomi007

OVER ISLAMABAD TODAY

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## Sine Nomine

fatman17 said:


> The 13 ex - jordanian F16s cost the PAF US $ 75 mill or slightly under 6m per aircraft. Not a bad deal considering the paucity of funds these days.


With MLU or without...


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## HRK

قناص said:


> With MLU or without...



These F-16 are ADF version & had received MLU up-gradation for Jordan Airforce before joining them. 

PAF has not ordered MUL for these birds.

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## OTTOMAN

fatman17 said:


> The 13 ex - jordanian F16s cost the PAF US $ 75 mill or slightly under 6m per aircraft. Not a bad deal considering the paucity of funds these days.


Friends in need is a friend indeed!

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## Windjammer

*F-16s flying over The Centaurus while rehearsing for the Pakistan Day Parade.  





*

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## TOPGUN

Windjammer said:


> *F-16s flying over The Centaurus while rehearsing for the Pakistan Day Parade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *



Are these the ADF's we got ? thx for sharing the picture

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## Windjammer

TOPGUN said:


> Are these the ADF's we got ? thx for sharing the picture


No, this is one of our original one from 1984, recently gone through MLU programme, same aircraft in the image below.

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## wiseone2

Windjammer said:


> No, this is one of our original one from 1984, recently gone through MLU programme, same aircraft in the image below.



Are PAF F-16s equipped with American BVR missiles ?

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## ali_raza

wiseone2 said:


> Are PAF F-16s equipped with American BVR missiles ?


no bro we just bought sticks with shurli in them.

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## razgriz19

wiseone2 said:


> Are PAF F-16s equipped with American BVR missiles ?

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## kaonalpha

Are the solo turk participating

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## fatman17

قناص said:


> With MLU or without...



Already Upgraded

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## fatman17

wiseone2 said:


> Are PAF F-16s equipped with American BVR missiles ?



Purchased 500 Aim 120C5 BVR rounds

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## Sine Nomine

Some Parts of F-16 which are checked during maintenance,list is incomplete




F-16 Armament tester...

http://www.aeroprecision.com/PDF/MTS-3060.pdf

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## Dazzler

razgriz19 said:


>



Damn, you just ruined a billion sleeps..

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## IrbiS



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## fatman17

Top guns


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## umair86

Its Air Marshal Abbas Khatak with Base Commander Sargodha.

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## nomi007

good night

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## zeeshanvita

Air Chief flying F 16...Bravo....!!

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## DrWatson775

zeeshanvita said:


> Air Chief flying F 16...Bravo....!!



He is in the rear seat of an F16D Block 52. Didn't fly it himself I think. This does not mean he is any less capable though.

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## Zohaib Irfan

Pakistan should be avoid these types of help specially from USA

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## MastanKhan

Zohaib Irfan said:


> Pakistan should be avoid these types of help specially from USA



Hi,

Welcome newbie-----so what kind of help do you want to avoid!

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## Zohaib Irfan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Welcome newbie-----so what kind of help do you want to avoid!



USA AID as simple as that

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## DrWatson775

Zohaib Irfan said:


> USA AID as simple as that



How many enemy aircraft has PAF shot down with non-US aircraft in its history? Few F6 kills in '71 maybe?

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## Rahil khan

Zohaib Irfan said:


> USA AID as simple as that


It was more or less 2 billion dollar deal....not US Aid my friend..!!

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## DESERT FIGHTER

Rahil khan said:


> It was more or less 2 billion dollar deal....not US Aid my friend..!!



3.5 actually.

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## krash

DrWatson775 said:


> How many enemy aircraft has PAF shot down with non-US aircraft in its history? Few F6 kills in '71 maybe?



According to the link below F-6s took 12 and Mirage IIIs took 3 kills in 71. PAF pilots also took kills on Mig-21s and Hunters (interestingly against Mirages and F-4s) during the Arab-Israeli wars but of course the planes did not belong to the PAF.


Air Aces Homepage

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## nomi007

PAF Chief Air Chief Marshall Sohail Aman flew f-16 block 50/52 and led PAF squadron during the 23rd march 2015 ceremony.

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## syed_yusuf

nomi007 said:


> PAF Chief Air Chief Marshall Sohail Aman flew f-16 block 50/52 and led PAF squadron during the 23rd march 2015 ceremony.




can the LED be change to leed

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## Oruc

syed_yusuf said:


> can the LED be change to leed


I think its "lead" not "leed".

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## syed_yusuf

FireAngel said:


> I think its "lead" not "leed".


you got it sorry

two wrongs do not make it right

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## SBD-3

Something that surprised me 
Eurofighter twin-seat version has a front-like HUD for back seater





Something which F-16s dont have

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## SipahSalar

DrWatson775 said:


> How many enemy aircraft has PAF shot down with non-US aircraft in its history? Few F6 kills in '71 maybe?


Whats your point? Pakistani inventory had been mostly American till late 80's. We paid for almost all of the aircraft. Nothing was for free.

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## SBD-3

DrWatson775 said:


> How many enemy aircraft has PAF shot down with non-US aircraft in its history? Few F6 kills in '71 maybe?


Yep F-6 (Chinese Mig-19) were credited with around 10 Victories.



> *Day Twelve: December 14*
> 
> Indian troops entered the suburbs of Dacca and continued to push forward, their advance supported from the air with MiG-21FLs striking a number of key targets in Dacca; the most notable was a rocket attack on the East Pakistan governor's house. During the raid, the governor was said to have written his resignation on a scrap of paper while taking cover in a ditch.
> 
> Simultaneously, in the west India began a drive against Shakargarh, a salient of Pakistani territory near Lahore that juts into India, and launched a similar effort against Naya Chor in the Sind Desert. The Indian Air Force bombed rail lines, trains and marshalling yards in northern and central Pakistan to lessen the flow of supplies to forward units; the Indian Air Force also bombed Pakistani airfields and radar sites. One MiG-21 was downed by Pakistani antiaircraft while attacking the Badin radar station.
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force bombed airfields at Pathankot, Amritsar and Srinagar. Sabres engaged Gnat fighters in a dogfight over Srinagar, with both sides losing planes.
> 
> Meanwhile, the Pakistanis flew large numbers of close support sorties in the Shakargarh, Sialkot and Zafarwal areas, destroying eighteen tanks, many guns and armored personnel carriers. A number of dogfights took their toll during the strikes.* A Pakistani F-6 pilot shot down an Indian MiG-21*, Sabres destroyed an Indian observation aircraft, and other Pakistani planes damaged a number of Indian fighter-bombers.
> PAF Falcons - 1971 war and the Pakistan Air Force
> F-6 Gallery : Pakistan Air Force Wallpapers

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## aziqbal

Mirage also has scored many kills

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## Najam Khan

Some random photos... (more here)
19SQN (2014)





















F-16B 83605 - The aircraft was involved in shooting down of IAF UAV in 2002.





9 SQN F16MLU

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## Najam Khan

9 SQN - 2011 (before MLU)










Sound of freedom!!





Arrows - 6ship formation during a multinational exercise.

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## Pinnacle

Najam Khan said:


> Some random photos... (more here)
> 19SQN (2014)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16B 83605 - The aircraft was involved in shooting down of IAF UAV in 2002.


ADF F-16s look rusty as hell..!!

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## Sine Nomine

@MastanKhan F-16 with Aim-9x,what is loaded under Right wing 3rd hard point two misslies?

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## IrbiS

قناص said:


> @MastanKhan F-16 with Aim-9x,what is loaded under Right wing 3rd hard point two misslies?


Four SDBs

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## SBD-3

Najam Khan said:


> Some random photos... (more here)
> 19SQN (2014)
> 
> \


Never saw serial numbers in arabic on PAF's jets before.


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## Bratva

SBD-3 said:


> Never saw serial numbers in arabic on PAF's jets before.



It's when F-16 came from Jordan

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## RAMPAGE

SBD-3 said:


> Something that surprised me
> Eurofighter twin-seat version has a front-like HUD for back seater
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something which F-16s dont have
> 
> 
> 
> [/QUOTEThey have HMDs.



F-16s have HMDs


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## krash

SBD-3 said:


> Something that surprised me
> Eurofighter twin-seat version has a front-like HUD for back seater
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Something which F-16s dont have



The aft seat HUD is pretty useless, or so it seems to me. You only get to see the back of the front guy's seat...In the below pictures it doesn't even seem to be turned on.


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## airmarshal

The rear set HUD is not needed as the guy at the back is not involved in flying. The reason for hUD is that the pilot flies the plane without taking eyes off the surroundings or off the flight info. 

None of American planes have the rear seat HUD.


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## Víðarr

قناص said:


> @MastanKhan F-16 with Aim-9x,what is loaded under Right wing 3rd hard point two misslies?



Small diameter bomb, here's a different view

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## AMDR

Víðarr said:


> Small diameter bomb, here's a different view
> 
> View attachment 208921
> 
> 
> View attachment 208923


F-15E with 20 SDBs ? You're joking right? Wow

Btw did PAF buy any GBU-39s from the US For their F-16s?


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## Víðarr

AMDR said:


> F-15E with 20 SDBs ? You're joking right? Wow
> 
> Btw did PAF buy any GBU-39s from the US For their F-16s?



Only the US, Israel and Italy uses the SDB right now (Oto Melara was a partner in the SDB program). Due to the US' rapprochement with India, and its general reluctance to sell such equipment to Pakistan, I don't foresee them being afforded the SDB anytime soon.

China has its own SDB derivative though, and this is an option for Pakistan. No word about its specifications or capabilities though.

CS/BBM2 100 kg SDB

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## IrbiS

Víðarr said:


> Only the US, Israel and Italy uses the SDB right now (Oto Melara was a partner in the SDB program). Due to the US' rapprochement with India, and its general reluctance to sell such equipment to Pakistan, I don't foresee them being afforded the SDB anytime soon.
> 
> China has its own SDB derivative though, and this is an option for Pakistan. No word about its specifications or capabilities though.
> 
> CS/BBM2 100 kg SDB
> View attachment 208926


No actual need for now at least for Shaheens


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## nomi007

Sherdils F-16ADF:
An Ex-RJAF F-16 ADF formation from No.19 Sqn "Sherdils" flying over Sargodha.
Sherdils F-16 wear low-viz tail scheme with a lion painted as squadron insignia. Their aircraft have average 3000 flying hours clocked todate.




they also need upgrading as well

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## razgriz19

nomi007 said:


> Sherdils F-16ADF:
> An Ex-RJAF F-16 ADF formation from No.19 Sqn "Sherdils" flying over Sargodha.
> Sherdils F-16 wear low-viz tail scheme with a lion painted as squadron insignia. Their aircraft have average 3000 flying hours clocked todate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they also need upgrading as well



I believe they were already upgraded, they just need PAF paint scheme


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## airmarshal

Small Diameter bomb is a very successful weapon.

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## SQ8

razgriz19 said:


> I believe they were already upgraded, they just need PAF paint scheme


Their last "update" was in 1997. As such they are still excellent at Air Defence and basic strike duties but in no way compare to those operated by 9 and 11 sqds.

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## razgriz19

Oscar said:


> Their last "update" was in 1997. As such they are still excellent at Air Defence and basic strike duties but in no way compare to those operated by 9 and 11 sqds.



Are they capable of carrying AMRAAMs and Sniper pods?

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## SQ8

razgriz19 said:


> Are they capable of carrying AMRAAMs and Sniper pods?


AMRAAMs yes, SNIPER NO.

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## syedali73

Oscar said:


> AMRAAMs yes, SNIPER NO.


Oscar, why did PAF not purchase AIM-120C7 and went for C5? Was it not for offer or because of price?

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## razgriz19

Oscar said:


> AMRAAMs yes, SNIPER NO.



So I'm assuming they would only be utilized for air defense duties, unless they do get upgraded.
But it almost seems quite unnecessary, we do have three more squadrons capable of performing strike duties.
They can just use these for ACM sorties, thus extending the lives of MLUs and Blk 52s


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## Imran Khan

syedali73 said:


> Oscar, why did PAF not purchase AIM-120C7 and went for C5? Was it not for offer or because of price?


they buy 506 amraams i was expecting mixed c-5 c-7 but PAF was thinking something else . may be because future of PAF is not with US missiles and we will move toward china


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## SQ8

syedali73 said:


> Oscar, why did PAF not purchase AIM-120C7 and went for C5? Was it not for offer or because of price?


The C-7 Variant at the time was the latest and not yet approved for export by the US government . It also is physically slightly different to the C-3 to C-6 variants. Just as with the rest of its allies, the US received the request from Pakistan and placed the order for the C-5 variant in early 2006. There is no exception to it since just 2 years before the UK placed an order for the C-5 variant, and Singapore along with Poland placed the order for the C-5 two years later in sep 2006. By 2007 the C-7 variant was available for export which was ordered by Taiwan and later Jordan and Kuwait .
It should be known that Pakistan's order was finally approved only in Nov 2006 and was completed in the April of 2011. 

This does not mean that the C-5 is not capable of being improved and particular improvements occur in production lots routinely. If it wishes, Pakistan can also request the AIM-120C7 or request the field improvements that are being applied to US military lots of C-3 to C-5 missiles.

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## Donatello

razgriz19 said:


> Are they capable of carrying AMRAAMs and Sniper pods?



But they can carry the ATLIS pod....and besides, F-16s were very good with Strike from day one.


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## razgriz19

Donatello said:


> But they can carry the ATLIS pod....and besides, F-16s were very good with Strike from day one.



But as far as I remember ATLIS are limited to day time strike only
Anyway, all i was trying to say that maybe PAF should utilize these more than our MLUs for training purposes, just to keep MLU and 52s cycles low.


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## nomi007

pakistan need to request usa for source codes 
through which we can armed our f-16s with chinese made advance missiles


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## DrWatson775

nomi007 said:


> pakistan need to request usa for source codes
> through which we can armed our f-16s with chinese made advance missiles


Not gonna happen. And no real need for PAF to modify F16 armament. PAF has JF17s and Mirages for experimentation and induction of non-US armament.

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## Windjammer



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## nomi007

another mile stone
*No. 9 Griffins Squadron



*

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## gambit

airmarshal said:


> Small Diameter bomb is a very successful weapon.


This is an extreme case. The reality is that even though we want to destroy the aircraft under/inside the shelter, falling heavy concrete debris on the aircraft is 90% just as good as being destroyed. And given the speed of war today, even 75% just as good as destroyed is bad enough to lose.

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## Windjammer

*Alan Warnes*‏@warnesyworld
*Seen several PAF F-16s with live laser guided bombs last couple of days. Playing a big part in trying to eliminate terrorism in western Pak*

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## ghazi52

great to see that progress.................

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## DrWatson775

Windjammer said:


>


I would be tempted to float a juicy steak into those crimson flames... ... 'well done' in a second...


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## Pinnacle

I have a question for senior members,Do PAF F-16s have DRFM capability now?i read somewhere that US congress Had blocked DRFM for PAF F-16s,But @Indus Falcon in other thread claimed that our F-16s have DRFM now.How authentic this news is?


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## I FLY HIGH

nomi007 said:


> another mile stone
> *No. 9 Griffins Squadron
> 
> 
> 
> *


why her gloves are very dirty?just a q?


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## Windjammer

@gambit 
Sir, if you can recall our earlier conversation, here's an F-16A, supplied to PAF in early 80s. It had recently gone through a MLU programme and now very much capable of firing AMRAAMs. Not bad for an over 30 year old frame.

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## Donatello

PAF needs more F-16s for COIN operations

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## gambit

Windjammer said:


> @gambit
> Sir, if you can recall our earlier conversation, here's an F-16A, supplied to PAF in early 80s. It had recently gone through a MLU programme and now very much capable of firing AMRAAMs. Not bad for an over 30 year old frame.


I have always like the simpler and cleaner 'A' body.


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## FLIR

Windjammer said:


> @gambit
> Sir, if you can recall our earlier conversation, here's an F-16A, supplied to PAF in early 80s. It had recently gone through a MLU programme and now very much capable of firing AMRAAMs. Not bad for an over 30 year old frame.


I cant be refuel in mid air . is this same aircraft which shoot down IAF uav?!


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## Windjammer

gambit said:


> I have always like the simpler and cleaner 'A' body.


I'm sure in it's clean configuration, the F-16 is in it's prime however the CFTs also seem to have little or no effect on it's performance.



> "The CFTs have very little adverse affect on the F-16's renowned performance," said Maj. Timothy S. McDonald, U.S. Air Force project pilot for CFT testing at Eglin. "The aircraft retains its full 9-g capability and flight envelope with the CFTs installed. The drag impact is very small - less than one percent in combat configuration at cruise conditions."


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## gambit

Windjammer said:


> I'm sure in it's clean configuration, the F-16 is in it's prime however the CFTs also seem to have little or no effect on it's performance.


Nah...I was talking from a pure visual perspective. I can handle the larger vertical stab root of the 'C/D', but the 'A' body is the most visually appealing.

The F-16 is genuinely a fighter jet. Forget about 'stealth', and I do not say that lightly and everybody here know how I feel about 'stealth', but low radar observable is a feature that is not needed to make an aircraft a 'fighter'. When aviation was borned, maneuverability was the rage and the biplanes were designed specifically for that feature. Practically no designer wanted to make a passenger aircraft. Every man wanted an aircraft that under the civilian facade is a fighter. The F-16 is the last of this breed. Never mind the two-seater version. The B/D versions are trainers. It is the single seater that is the fighter. Everything about the F-16 is about making it as pure a fighter as possible.

The F-15 is Mike Tyson. The F-16 is Manny Pacquiao, Sugar Ray Leonard, Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, and Donnie Yen all rolled into into a single body. Although, I am partial to Donnie Yen myself.

There is a difference between a 'mission' and a 'type'. The F-15 was designed to accomplish a 'mission', which is air superiority. I can assign a B-52 to that job if I wanted to. But a 'type' is philosophical and the F-16 was built from a philosophy, not a mission.

In boxing, winning a title is a mission, but whether you have a body type to accomplish that mission is a different issue. You can spar with Manny Pacquiao and even if he does not land a single touch to you, there would still be no mistaking that you faced a fighter. Going up against the F-16 even in mock combat and you will leave the engagement relieved that he was unarmed. Never mind about off boresight missiles. The F-16 is about agility and maneuverability using the most basic forms and quantity of surfaces, then coupled that with an oversized engine, and you got as close to a fighter in the air as can get.

The F-16 may very well be the last of its kind, my friend. And I am glad to have been on that control stick at 9g.

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## MastanKhan

I FLY HIGH said:


> why her gloves are very dirty?just a q?



Because she is an engineer.

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## Bratva

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/586157545229656064

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## black-hawk_101

Will PAF going to buy another 32 52 f16 block 52?

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## shahmmd

why pakistan air force do it itself, if they can built JF 17, why they can do they overhull of f16, does turky air force is more strong then pakistan.

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## Thorough Pro

Because TAI is licensed by LM to carry out upgrades like that.



shahmmd said:


> why pakistan air force do it itself, if they can built JF 17, why they can do they overhull of f16, does turky air force is more strong then pakistan.

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## Windjammer

Now this is acknowledgement.



*Alan Warnes* ‏@warnesyworld  1h1 hour ago
@e6e47a9f623a406 It wouldn't take PAF F-16 Bk52/MLU pilots too much to transition to UAEAF Bk60s. Very capable guys.

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## zeeshanvita

Windjammer said:


> Now this is acknowledgement.
> 
> 
> 
> *Alan Warnes* ‏@warnesyworld  1h1 hour ago
> @e6e47a9f623a406 It wouldn't take PAF F-16 Bk52/MLU pilots too much to transition to UAEAF Bk60s. Very capable guys.


And what does this means...???

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## Windjammer

zeeshanvita said:


> And what does this means...???



Means that UAE wants Pakistani pilots to carry out the strikes, if so then PAF pilots would need to fly the Block-60 F-16 of UAEAF.

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## zeeshanvita

Windjammer said:


> Means that UAE wants Pakistani pilots to carry out the strikes, if so then PAF pilots would need to fly the Block-60 F-16 of UAEAF.


yeah i was expecting this answer...asked just to confirm...


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## nangyale

And that's an opportunity that PAF definitely needs to avail. 
Gaining experience on the block 60 will help Pakistan in many ways. 


Windjammer said:


> Means that UAE wants Pakistani pilots to carry out the strikes, if so then PAF pilots would need to fly the Block-60 F-16 of UAEAF.

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## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> Means that UAE wants Pakistani pilots to carry out the strikes, if so then PAF pilots would need to fly the Block-60 F-16 of UAEAF.



Man, if that is the case, it is indeed a shame for those Arabs proudly flying. Why would they need PAF to fly when they have the latest tech and the US trained them well?

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## zeeshanvita

Donatello said:


> Man, if that is the case, it is indeed a shame for those Arabs proudly flying. Why would they need PAF to fly when they have the latest tech and the US trained them well?


Its because they are not tested.....skills come when the 1 is war tested...

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## Donatello

zeeshanvita said:


> Its because they are not tested.....skills come when the 1 is war tested...



This is more of a air to ground raid than a air-air combat......with the tech in F-16s, it should be a walk in the park.
You have the target.......you designate it and bam. That's what all those those pods/sensors are for.....unless UAE doesn't have info on where to target....because then you should be seriously thinking if this is your war or not.

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## Sine Nomine

Donatello said:


> This is more of a air to ground raid than a air-air combat......with the tech in F-16s, it should be a walk in the park.
> You have the target.......you designate it and bam. That's what all those those pods/sensors are for.....unless UAE doesn't have info on where to target....because then you should be seriously thinking if this is your war or not.


Because of idiotic comments of that UAE minister everyone in Pak is really pissed of


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## zeeshanvita

Donatello said:


> This is more of a air to ground raid than a air-air combat......with the tech in F-16s, it should be a walk in the park.
> You have the target.......you designate it and bam. That's what all those those pods/sensors are for.....unless UAE doesn't have info on where to target....because then you should be seriously thinking if this is your war or not.


My friend UAE has a very small population....


قناص said:


> Because of idiotic comments of that UAE minister everyone in Pak is really pissed of


Dear 1.5 million Pakistani's are working in the UAE...they dont care if Pakistani's are pissed or wat...


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## Sine Nomine

zeeshanvita said:


> My friend UAE has a very small population....
> 
> Dear 1.5 million Pakistani's are working in the UAE...they dont care if Pakistani's are pissed or wat...


well they have to only we have power to stop Iran.

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## araz

قناص said:


> well they have to only we have power to stop Iran.


 Bhai.
Please dont go off on Tangents. It will derail the thread. What UAE govtt does is none of PAF or F16s business. Keep it tight and on track otherwise so many threads get derailed.
Araz


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## I FLY HIGH

MastanKhan said:


> Because she is an engineer.


an engineer of a pilot?


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## fatman17

PAF is very proficient in F16 ops with any block type


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## nomi007

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=475988885889708

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## Sine Nomine

nomi007 said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=475988885889708


Agreed Nice share.one of my friend told me that during 2008 standoff he along with his co will spent nights sitting in cockpit,ready for scramble call.


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## Indus Falcon

nomi007 said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=475988885889708


A lot of people have a tough time digesting the fact, that a good pilot can make hell of a difference!!

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Windjammer said:


> Now this is acknowledgement.
> 
> 
> 
> *Alan Warnes* ‏@warnesyworld  1h1 hour ago
> @e6e47a9f623a406 It wouldn't take PAF F-16 Bk52/MLU pilots too much to transition to UAEAF Bk60s. Very capable guys.


This is also includes the permissions from USA? It was not permitted before when the UAE Airforce asked PAF pilots to train them.


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## zeeshanvita

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> This is also includes the permissions from USA? It was not permitted before when the UAE Airforce asked PAF pilots to train them.


Thats UAE Head ack...


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## Donatello

zeeshanvita said:


> Thats UAE Head ack...



Good. Maybe PAF can fly a squadron back to Pakistan.


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## gambit

قناص said:


> Agreed Nice share.one of my friend told me that during 2008 standoff he along with his co will spent nights sitting in cockpit,ready for scramble call.


That is not necessary and actually can negatively affect pilot's performance in the event of a quick launch and flight.

I am *NOT* saying your friend lied. But back during the Cold War, I pulled Victor Alert duty at RAF Upper Heyford (F-111E) and I know there are several degrees of 'alert'.

The F-111 is a two-man crew and at the lowest level of alert, pilots must be in flight suits at all time and cannot be more than 30 minutes travel time from the VA area. It mean they can go shopping, to the gym, or if a pilot live on base, he can even go home for some booty, but if the horn sounds, all VA crews have to be on their jets in 30 min or less and g-suit up.

A higher degree of alert mean the crew must be in the vicinity of the VA shelter that contains their jet. Basically, it mean they can fly in 15 min or less. They can even be outside the shelter without their g-suits, but they must be present in the area.

The highest degree of alert mean the crew is suited up, in their jets, and with engines running. All VA crews just waiting for the squawk to taxi and launch. By this time, INS-es are fully warmed and target cartridges fully initialized. If the launch squawk come, pilots and WSOs must authenticate the launch code and voice acknowledge before they can taxi. We have gone to that level before. Today, we can admit such times did happened, but back then, it was punishable under the UCMJ to reveal when we ever had that level of alert.

Sitting in the cramped cockpit for long just waiting is physically and mentally bad for the pilot. Inactivity pools the blood in the body's lower region and can affect thinking. In the early days of the Cold War, we actually did have pilots in the cockpits of B-52s, refuel tankers, and AWACs, but we found out there were no benefits of any kind to it. There is a lot of medical literature about this.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Donatello said:


> Good. Maybe PAF can fly a squadron back to Pakistan.


or may be the new ones that are ordered would be redirected.


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## gambit

When I was transferred to the F-16 and stationed at MacDill, which was an F-16 training base, like Luke, I heard that F-15 crews in Europe often reduced launch times by having crew chiefs runs the starboard engine and fully warmed up every systems. The pilot would be all suited up, helmet on, and waiting under port wing. The reason is because the cockpit ladder is on the port side. When the launch order came, pilot and crew chief would quickly swap places, crew chief would help the pilot to fully hook up, the pilot would start the port engine, and away he go. Depending on the waiting period, sometime the jets would hit the 'hot pit' area to top off any fuel before they hit the runways.

Could not do this with the F-16 because of its single engine. We could use an external generator, called the 'Dash 60', to at least fully initialize the INS, but that would be the safety limit. The down side is that we do not have enough -60s for every jet.

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## Sine Nomine

gambit said:


> That is not necessary and actually can negatively affect pilot's performance in the event of a quick launch and flight.
> 
> I am *NOT* saying your friend lied. But back during the Cold War, I pulled Victor Alert duty at RAF Upper Heyford (F-111E) and I know there are several degrees of 'alert'.
> 
> The F-111 is a two-man crew and at the lowest level of alert, pilots must be in flight suits at all time and cannot be more than 30 minutes travel time from the VA area. It mean they can go shopping, to the gym, or if a pilot live on base, he can even go home for some booty, but if the horn sounds, all VA crews have to be on their jets in 30 min or less and g-suit up.
> 
> A higher degree of alert mean the crew must be in the vicinity of the VA shelter that contains their jet. Basically, it mean they can fly in 15 min or less. They can even be outside the shelter without their g-suits, but they must be present in the area.
> 
> The highest degree of alert mean the crew is suited up, in their jets, and with engines running. All VA crews just waiting for the squawk to taxi and launch. By this time, INS-es are fully warmed and target cartridges fully initialized. If the launch squawk come, pilots and WSOs must authenticate the launch code and voice acknowledge before they can taxi. We have gone to that level before. Today, we can admit such times did happened, but back then, it was punishable under the UCMJ to reveal when we ever had that level of alert.
> 
> Sitting in the cramped cockpit for long just waiting is physically and mentally bad for the pilot. Inactivity pools the blood in the body's lower region and can affect thinking. In the early days of the Cold War, we actually did have pilots in the cockpits of B-52s, refuel tankers, and AWACs, but we found out there were no benefits of any kind to it. There is a lot of medical literature about this.


You are right sir but they would take turns manning the cockpit,but in our case that was base which is operational only during stand off,but it is still a vital base it is just 50km away from fully operational enemy Airbase,and it's nearest fully ops PAF base is 130+km away rest i agree with you it has effects on health.



gambit said:


> When I was transferred to the F-16 and stationed at MacDill, which was an F-16 training base, like Luke, I heard that F-15 crews in Europe often reduced launch times by having crew chiefs runs the starboard engine and fully warmed up every systems. The pilot would be all suited up, helmet on, and waiting under port wing. The reason is because the cockpit ladder is on the port side. When the launch order came, pilot and crew chief would quickly swap places, crew chief would help the pilot to fully hook up, the pilot would start the port engine, and away he go. Depending on the waiting period, sometime the jets would hit the 'hot pit' area to top off any fuel before they hit the runways.
> 
> Could not do this with the F-16 because of its single engine. We could use an external generator, called the 'Dash 60', to at least fully initialize the INS, but that would be the safety limit. The down side is that we do not have enough -60s for every jet.


what about APU sir.


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## gambit

قناص said:


> You are right sir but they would take turns manning the cockpit,but in our case that was base which is operational only during stand off,but it is still a vital base it is just 50km away from fully operational enemy Airbase,and it's nearest fully ops PAF base is 130+km away rest i agree with you it has effects on health.


Yah...That would require rotating someone in/out of the cockpit. Fully understandable need.



قناص said:


> what about APU sir.


Nope...The F-16's APU, we really called it EPU for emergency, is for when there is an engine failure. It was not designed to be casually run for any other purpose.

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## razgriz19

gambit said:


> When I was transferred to the F-16 and stationed at MacDill, which was an F-16 training base, like Luke, I heard that F-15 crews in Europe often reduced launch times by having crew chiefs runs the starboard engine and fully warmed up every systems. The pilot would be all suited up, helmet on, and waiting under port wing. The reason is because the cockpit ladder is on the port side. When the launch order came, pilot and crew chief would quickly swap places, crew chief would help the pilot to fully hook up, the pilot would start the port engine, and away he go. Depending on the waiting period, sometime the jets would hit the 'hot pit' area to top off any fuel before they hit the runways.
> 
> Could not do this with the F-16 because of its single engine. We could use an external generator, called the 'Dash 60', to at least fully initialize the INS, but that would be the safety limit. The down side is that we do not have enough -60s for every jet.



can't they just the APU and get all the systems ready using that?
we do it for commercial aircraft

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## HRK

Source: http://www.ftm.nl/wp-content/upload...osts White Paper FINAL 13th March 2012(1).pdf

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## gambit

razgriz19 said:


> can't they just the APU and get all the systems ready using that?
> we do it for commercial aircraft


That is not how the F-16's EPU was designed to do.

If engine is lost in flight, for whatever reason, the EPU will start. The device is essentially a small turbine engine that runs on a highly combustible fuel, even higher than JP-series, and in this fuel is hydrazine, which is a component of rocket fuel and a poison. Hydrazine's fume and exhaust is toxic in the immediate area. Better off to dissipate it in flight than on the ground.

Hydrazine (HSG 56, 1991)

Remember, the F-16 was designed to be small, lightweight, and serviceable. The jet does not have internal space for a genuine auxiliary power unit like the larger airliners. The EPU provides both electrical and hydraulic power for 10-15 minutes.

From the f-16.net guys...

http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=10113&sid=7ec14b43821418a2388d36035418e630&mode=view

The EPU interconnect is in hydraulic system A, upper left corner view.

Actually, the phrase 'engine lost' is broad. The EPU can start while engine is still in operation. If electrical and/or hydraulics power drops below a certain level, the EPU will kick in and you have about 10-15 min to find a reasonably safe location to land or eject. If the engine is damaged but still does provide some thrust, all the better for you. If it does not provide any worthwhile thrust at all, at least you have power for controlled glide.

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## Windjammer



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## nazid

nomi007 said:


> good night
> 
> 
> 
> what a pic great

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## nomi007



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## nomi007

Pakistan Airforce Air Supremacy Fighters Going Hunting - Loaded with BVR, Limas Missiles, clear the sky and follow up with precision strikes. AMRAAMS, JHMCS, LGBs, CFTs.




*from Pakistan with love

*

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## fatman17

The inside news is that Pakistan is reviving the option of buying 18 F16s CD models from the US. They will be purchased by Pakistani funds. Nearly 1.2B US $ will be required.

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## Thorough Pro

would be nice if the C/D's come with additional 18 A/B's



fatman17 said:


> The inside news is that Pakistan is reviving the option of buying 18 F16s CD models from the US. They will be purchased by Pakistani funds. Nearly 1.2B US $ will be required.

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## fatman17

Thorough Pro said:


> would be nice if the C/D's come with additional 18 A/B's



ABs may come from a 3rd party.

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## Windjammer

*
It's interesting to note that there's a small charge which activates the smoke winders.
*

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## Dil Pakistan

Sir ! 

I understand that A / B stand for single seater & dual seater.

What does C / D stand for ?


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## Windjammer

Dil Pakistan said:


> Sir !
> 
> I understand that A / B stand for single seater & dual seater.
> 
> What does C / D stand for ?


Same but for the Block-52s.

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> The inside news is that Pakistan is reviving the option of buying 18 F16s CD models from the US. They will be purchased by Pakistani funds. Nearly 1.2B US $ will be required.



Actually probably more than 1.2billion, as Pakistan might go for more AIM120s, AIM9s (AIM9x?) and the associated spare engines, radars.


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## nomi007

good news

76 + 18 more = 94
increase order to 25 which is better

2nd try to get Qatari mirage 2000
* Qatari*
2000-5EDA Single-seat fighter 9
2000-5DDA Two-seat trainer 3
Total 12 
qatar is going to replace them with rafael

also try to get 
*United Arab Emirates*
2000EAD Single-seat multirole 22
2000-9 Single-seat 20
2000-9D Two-seat trainer 12
2000RAD Unique reconnaissance variant 8
2000DAD Two-seat trainer 6
Total 68 

*United Arab Emirates* mirages are more advance than any available 4th gen fighter in the world


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## Donatello

Good news if true


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## Shabi1

A


nomi007 said:


> good news
> 
> 76 + 18 more = 94
> increase order to 25 which is better
> 
> 2nd try to get Qatari mirage 2000
> * Qatari*
> 2000-5EDA Single-seat fighter 9
> 2000-5DDA Two-seat trainer 3
> Total 12
> qatar is going to replace them with rafael
> 
> also try to get
> *United Arab Emirates*
> 2000EAD Single-seat multirole 22
> 2000-9 Single-seat 20
> 2000-9D Two-seat trainer 12
> 2000RAD Unique reconnaissance variant 8
> 2000DAD Two-seat trainer 6
> Total 68
> 
> *United Arab Emirates* mirages are more advance than any available 4th gen fighter in the world



as much as I admire the Mirage delta design, heard they were being given to Eygpt.


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## nomi007

Shabi1 said:


> A
> 
> 
> as much as I admire the Mirage delta design, heard they were being given to Eygpt.


not all


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## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> *It's interesting to note that there's a small charge which activates the smoke winders.*



Cannot see the photos

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## HRK

Windjammer said:


> *It's interesting to note that there's a small charge which activates the smoke winders.
> 
> *



pic not visible plz post again ...


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## Windjammer

Donatello said:


> Cannot see the photos





HRK said:


> pic not visible plz post again ...



Are you sure as i can see them . !!


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## Bratva

@Windjammer You are hotlinking email attached images hence we can't see it while only you can.


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## Shabi1

Anyone know the price difference between the F-16 Block-52+ and Block-61. Block-60 is no longer available since APG-80 radars are out production so all of UAEs new orders are F-16 Block-61 with the SABR radar, they will upgrade all their previous Block-60s to 61 standard for commonality.


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## alimobin memon

Can anyone clearly and in detail explain why mirage 2000-9 is better than jf17 , f16 mlu or block 52+ as stated as being the worlds most advanced 4th generation fighter, kindly I would like to know why ?


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## HRK

Windjammer said:


> Are you sure as i can see them . !!



110%



alimobin memon said:


> Can anyone clearly and in detail explain why mirage 2000-9 is better than jf17 , f16 mlu or block 52+ as stated as being the worlds most advanced 4th generation fighter, kindly I would like to know why ?



because it is now in Indian inventory .... simple

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## Windjammer

@Donatello @HRK @Bratva 

Guys, check it out now, have reinserted the images.

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## alimobin memon

HRK said:


> 110%
> 
> 
> 
> because it is now in Indian inventory .... simple


Exactly, Its as good as mlu its overhyped.


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## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> @Donatello @HRK @Bratva
> 
> Guys, check it out now, have reinserted the images.



Yup, can see it now.


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## Thorough Pro

Strictly no mirages
Who in his right mind would trust French after they backed out of an agreement to supply avionics for Thunders. this was second time, first time they backed out of supplying heavy water reactor under US pressure.
Momin aik soorakh say do martaba nahee dassa jata!

We need about 160 Falcons, 60 J-10/J-11 and continue with Thunders




nomi007 said:


> good news
> 
> 76 + 18 more = 94
> increase order to 25 which is better
> 
> 2nd try to get Qatari mirage 2000
> * Qatari*
> 2000-5EDA Single-seat fighter 9
> 2000-5DDA Two-seat trainer 3
> Total 12
> qatar is going to replace them with rafael
> 
> also try to get
> *United Arab Emirates*
> 2000EAD Single-seat multirole 22
> 2000-9 Single-seat 20
> 2000-9D Two-seat trainer 12
> 2000RAD Unique reconnaissance variant 8
> 2000DAD Two-seat trainer 6
> Total 68
> 
> *United Arab Emirates* mirages are more advance than any available 4th gen fighter in the world


----------



## nomi007

Thorough Pro said:


> Strictly no mirages
> Who in his right mind would trust French after they backed out of an agreement to supply avionics for Thunders. this was second time, first time they backed out of supplying heavy water reactor under US pressure.
> Momin aik soorakh say do martaba nahee dassa jata!
> 
> We need about 160 Falcons, 60 J-10/J-11 and continue with Thunders


bhai waise 1 QURAN ki ayat hai
yahood aur nisara kabi tumhare dost nai ho sakte

ab usa wale muslim to hain nai
2nd
its deal with UAE and QATAR not with france

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## mingle

nomi007 said:


> good news
> 
> 76 + 18 more = 94
> increase order to 25 which is better
> 
> 2nd try to get Qatari mirage 2000
> * Qatari*
> 2000-5EDA Single-seat fighter 9
> 2000-5DDA Two-seat trainer 3
> Total 12
> qatar is going to replace them with rafael
> 
> also try to get
> *United Arab Emirates*
> 2000EAD Single-seat multirole 22
> 2000-9 Single-seat 20
> 2000-9D Two-seat trainer 12
> 2000RAD Unique reconnaissance variant 8
> 2000DAD Two-seat trainer 6
> Total 68
> 
> *United Arab Emirates* mirages are more advance than any available 4th gen fighter in the world


Nomi idea is not bad these jets got 85 % of theior life say safely pretty brand new Qatar got new rafale jets and UAE also working on deal with french somewhere these mirages gonna end up i beleive in current senario if we said yemen and pakistan i dont see any issue over these jets towards pakistan neither arabs and french i hope high command gonna pay attention to it can replace our BABAs mirages


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## ACE OF THE AIR

nomi007 said:


> bhai waise 1 QURAN ki ayat hai
> yahood aur nisara kabi tumhare dost nai ho sakte
> 
> ab usa wale muslim to hain nai
> 2nd
> its deal with UAE and QATAR not with france


There is also news that Austria is replacing EFT's and some German are also available.


----------



## MastanKhan

nomi007 said:


> bhai waise 1 QURAN ki ayat hai
> yahood aur nisara kabi tumhare dost nai ho sakte
> 
> ab usa wale muslim to hain nai
> 2nd
> its deal with UAE and QATAR not with france



Sir,

Quran just don't make single line statements----. There s a story leading to it----you need to mention that as well.

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## Thorough Pro

UAE and QATAR don't produce spares and will never be able to provide upgrades in the future, and why go for an already obsolete platform. Although you may say the same for Falcons, but Pakistan already has the required infrastructure for them and great experience and expertise with the platform.

Dealings with US are not out of mutual love or respect, but mutual interest in the region, Europeans are mostly toads of the well and only look for their own economic interests, US on the other hand looks at it's strategic interests. 



nomi007 said:


> bhai waise 1 QURAN ki ayat hai
> yahood aur nisara kabi tumhare dost nai ho sakte
> 
> ab usa wale muslim to hain nai
> 2nd
> its deal with UAE and QATAR not with france


----------



## fatman17

Shabi1 said:


> Anyone know the price difference between the F-16 Block-52+ and Block-61. Block-60 is no longer available since APG-80 radars are out production so all of UAEs new orders are F-16 Block-61 with the SABR radar, they will upgrade all their previous Block-60s to 61 standard for commonality.



80 mill USD


----------



## razgriz19

Donatello said:


> Actually probably more than 1.2billion, as Pakistan might go for more AIM120s, AIM9s (AIM9x?) and the associated spare engines, radars.



500 AMRAAMs are enough for less than 100 aircraft.
If they do order them anyway, i hope they would be C-7 if not D


----------



## truthseeker2010

fatman17 said:


> 80 mill USD



this is the price of block 61?


----------



## syedali73

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> Quran just don't make single line statements----. There s a story leading to it----you need to mention that as well.


Selective quotation without reference to the context is worst kind of intellectual dishonesty.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

fatman17 said:


> 80 mill USD


It is not possible because that would be higher than F-18 E/F which is about 65 mill USD.
Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

F-18G is about 70 mill USD.
Boeing EA-18G Growler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Donatello

razgriz19 said:


> 500 AMRAAMs are enough for less than 100 aircraft.
> If they do order them anyway, i hope they would be C-7 if not D



Actually no, 500 are not enough, that'll be an average of 5 per aircraft. PAF might go for 200-300 more (assuming they have plans to acquire MLU A/B models as well) and that might be the C7 version since i believe C5 is no longer in production. What i am more interested in is the AIM9X, since JHMCS was taken last time.

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## araz

syedali73 said:


> Selective quotation without reference to the context is worst kind of intellectual dishonesty.


It is done becauze the person quoting is listening to someone else and quoting the text verbatum. The text goes that"and the jews and the christians will never be your friend until you follow their religion".
It needs to be emphasised that this ayat came in Madina when the prophet SAW was having arguments and debates aith the jews and christians. The ayat is meant to say that stop wastinv your time on convincing them, they will not follow you because they oppose you out of sheer jealousy or other motives rather than out of knowledge. And Allah knows best.
The problem with quoting the Quran in isolation is the loss of context. Also you need to take a situation and apply it in the context of the whole of the Quran rather than in isolation.
To give you an example the prophet SAW still maintained his pact with the jews and enacted new ones with the Christians after the revelationof this ayat somewhere between 2nd and 5th hijrah.
The situation of acquisition of arms is that you are required to get the best arms available from any source and to keepyour forces ready too the best of your capabilities. The M2Ks have been assessed 3 times by PAF and the deal not progressed beyond an interest. The last nail in that coffin was stuck in 2002-4. This episode is over. People need to move on. If the sale was not relevant in 02' it is certainly not going to become juicy in 15' when the platform has been obsolete since 02 and the manufacturing process has stopped. It is a beautiful platform and we missed out on it in the 80s due to some. PAF guys not thinking strategically but now it would be sheer stupidity for PAF to go for it. In fact I would not be surprised if IAF goes for them.
CAN ESTEEMED MEMBERS PLEASE NOT QUOTE THE QURAN OUT OF CONTEXT AND IN ISOLATION AND INCUR SIN FOR MISLEADING OTHERS. PLEASE THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.
Araz



Donatello said:


> Actually no, 500 are not enough, that'll be an average of 5 per aircraft. PAF might go for 200-300 more (assuming they have plans to acquire MLU A/B models as well) and that might be the C7 version since i believe C5 is no longer in production. What i am more interested in is the AIM9X, since JHMCS was taken last time.


I think AIM9X and 120 Ds might be on the cards. Would we need / be able to upgrade the 120 C5 inventory to Ds?

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## Indus Falcon

fatman17 said:


> The inside news is that Pakistan is reviving the option of buying 18 F16s CD models from the US. They will be purchased by Pakistani funds. Nearly 1.2B US $ will be required.


With SABR radar?


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## Daikhlotv

Great website and great users!!!


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## Donatello

araz said:


> Ithink AIM9X and 120 Ds might be on the cards. Would we need / be able to upgrade the 120 C5 inventory to Ds?



That is an interesting concept, since some versions of AIM9 were upgraded by just modifying the software. However since the AIM120 C7 and D versions offer increased range (hence the motor is different) and better seekers for ECCM, i am not sure if the C5 structure can readily accept the modifications. With the large number of C5 in use since 1996, it makes sense to make it future proof. The D version came out in 2006-8, so it can be assured that it has some of the best ECCM for newer gen threats, because European users were willing to take it as well, despite the MICA and Meteor on offer to them. 

I think AIM9X and AIM120D are gonna make the F-16s absolutely lethal.

@Oscar any idea about AIM120 upgrade-ability?

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## Donatello

@gambit 

Can you lobby for AIM9X and AIM120D?


----------



## Thorough Pro

much appreciated, both the explanation on Quaranic Ayat and the perspective on M2000. I totally agree with both.




araz said:


> It is done becauze the person quoting is listening to someone else and quoting the text verbatum. The text goes that"and the jews and the christians will never be your friend until you follow their religion".
> It needs to be emphasised that this ayat came in Madina when the prophet SAW was having arguments and debates aith the jews and christians. The ayat is meant to say that stop wastinv your time on convincing them, they will not follow you because they oppose you out of sheer jealousy or other motives rather than out of knowledge. And Allah knows best.
> The problem with quoting the Quran in isolation is the loss of context. Also you need to take a situation and apply it in the context of the whole of the Quran rather than in isolation.
> To give you an example the prophet SAW still maintained his pact with the jews and enacted new ones with the Christians after the revelationof this ayat somewhere between 2nd and 5th hijrah.
> The situation of acquisition of arms is that you are required to get the best arms available from any source and to keepyour forces ready too the best of your capabilities. The M2Ks have been assessed 3 times by PAF and the deal not progressed beyond an interest. The last nail in that coffin was stuck in 2002-4. This episode is over. People need to move on. If the sale was not relevant in 02' it is certainly not going to become juicy in 15' when the platform has been obsolete since 02 and the manufacturing process has stopped. It is a beautiful platform and we missed out on it in the 80s due to some. PAF guys not thinki g strategically but now it would be sheer stupidity for PAF to go for it. In fact I would not be surprised if IAF goes for them.
> CAN ESTEEMED MEMBERS PLEASE NOT QUOTE THE QURAN OUT OF CONTEXT AND IN ISOLATION AND INCUR SIN FOR MILEAXING OTHERS. PLEASE THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.
> Araz
> 
> 
> Ithink AIM9X and 120 Ds might be on the cards. Would we need / be able to upgrade the 120 C5 inventory to Ds?



LOL. @Donatello come on man, don't be so desperate



Donatello said:


> @gambit
> 
> Can you lobby for AIM9X and AIM120D?


----------



## fatman17

Donatello said:


> @gambit
> 
> Can you lobby for AIM9X and AIM120D?



The 120D has just been released to the US. 120C7 is available as well as the 9X if PAF wants.

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## gambit

Donatello said:


> @gambit
> 
> Can you lobby for AIM9X and AIM120D?


Try this...

F-16 Block 52 vs Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 | Page 5

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> The 120D has just been released to the US. 120C7 is available as well as the 9X if PAF wants.



I think it would make sense for PAF to go for it. AIM9X brings that true HOBS capability, which can help the JF-17's PL series as well. It's gonna be what, 200-300 million USD? That's not much for the capability it brings. We know our boys know how to rip the falcons aparts, just add more fangs to it....



gambit said:


> Try this...
> 
> F-16 Block 52 vs Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 | Page 5



Can the C5 be upgraded to C7 standard?


----------



## Shabi1

Donatello said:


> I think it would make sense for PAF to go for it. AIM9X brings that true HOBS capability, which can help the JF-17's PL series as well. It's gonna be what, 200-300 million USD? That's not much for the capability it brings. We know our boys know how to rip the falcons aparts, just add more fangs to it....
> 
> 
> 
> Can the C5 be upgraded to C7 standard?



AIM-9X is really good but dont know if they will allow them for Pakistan yet, maybe when the option to buy another 18 F-16 Block-52+s is exercised then they could be acquired with them. The Chinese dont need any input for a better short range missile, they have the PL-10 air to air missile with 90° off-boresight angle, lock-on-before launch (LOBL) and lock-on-after launch (LOAL) capabilities. Surprised Why not already inducted in PAF with F-7PGs and JF-17s, maybe waiting for helmet mounted sight integration.
Chinese PL-10 Short Range Air-to-Air Missile | Chinese Military Review

Range for the APG-68 V9 for 5m2 aerial target is 105km and the range of the AMRAAM C5 is a little over that so dont see any practical advantage of upgrading to C7 standard which matching range at the moment. Maybe once they need maintenance to extend shelf life then they could get the update, but not an issue right now untill the F-16s get a radar upgrade to SABR.

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## Donatello

Shabi1 said:


> AIM-9X is really good but dont know if they will allow them for Pakistan yet, maybe when the option to buy another 18 F-16 Block-52+s is exercised then they could be acquired with them. The Chinese dont need any input for a better short range missile, they have the PL-10 air to air missile with 90° off-boresight angle, lock-on-before launch (LOBL) and lock-on-after launch (LOAL) capabilities. Surprised Why not already inducted in PAF with F-7PGs and JF-17s, maybe waiting for helmet mounted sight integration.
> Chinese PL-10 Short Range Air-to-Air Missile | Chinese Military Review
> 
> Range for the APG-68 V9 for 5m2 aerial target is 105km and the range of the AMRAAM C5 is a little over that so dont see any practical advantage of upgrading to C7 standard which matching range at the moment. Maybe once they need maintenance to extend shelf life then they could get the update, but not an issue right now untill the F-16s get a radar upgrade to SABR.



Exact range of APG68 is not known, and for a 5m2 target, it is well over that. Otherwise why would they go for C7 and AIM120D versions, when they know that F-16s are one of the primary weapons platform for it. 
Secondly the missile range quoted itself is ambiguous, depending on the scenario.....a missile in a head up chase will have less distance to travel than the one in a tail chase for a target at the outer end of the engagement zone. I mean, if the target is 70-100km away and moving away, then the missile pretty much used up it's range in just closing the gap. On the other hand a target 25km away and moving away, will have a better chance to be hit if missile has a longer range.

Since 50-70km out, the APG68 range doesn't matter, both the AIM120C5/C7 and D can have a lock. However, since the C7/D versions have more fuel, they can chase the target for a longer duration, close in and hence increase the chances of a NEZ and kill probability.

So a longer ranged AIM120 doesn't mean that he can engage from so far out.......yes that's a good reason for BVR engagement, but i need to have enough range in a missile that it can chase and hit the target that is moving away.

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## GHOST RIDER

Are PAF block 52 F-16s the only planes with Helmet Mounted Cueing System\Helmet Mounted Display ?


----------



## Windjammer



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## Windjammer

*Typhoon Zappers.

Finally, after some persuading, a source found and sent me the contingent picture just before their departure for Antonio Eagle deployment. These are the one's who OWNED the Typhoons back in 2008 fleecing them 3 out of 3 in air combat!*

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## CHI RULES

Here is question just for knowledge sake can Pakistani older F16s below Block 52 level be upgraded withj AESA radar or not, if yes then what are possibilities+costs?


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## The Great One

CHI RULES said:


> Here is question just for knowledge sake can Pakistani older F16s below Block 52 level be upgraded withj AESA radar or not, if yes then what are possibilities+costs?


Singapore is planning an Block 52 upgrade as is Taiwan and US Air National Guard.
Singapore - F-16 Block 52 Upgrade

Good for us though, RSAF Block 52's are permanently based in West Bengal.


----------



## Max Pain

The Great One said:


> Singapore is planning an Block 52 upgrade as is Taiwan and US Air National Guard.
> Singapore - F-16 Block 52 Upgrade
> 
> Good for us though, RSAF Block 52's are permanently based in West Bengal.


why


----------



## The Great One

Max Pain said:


> why


why what?


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## Windjammer

The Great One said:


> Good for us though, RSAF Block 52's are permanently based in West Bengal.



We understand your admiration for the Block-52s but these will not fight your war and save you.


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## The Great One

Windjammer said:


> We understand your admiration for the Block-52s but these will not fight your war and save you.


Well, at least we will know exactly how to fight what is your only worthwhile opposition. Must be pretty heart-breaking though isn't it? To see your enemy knowing full secrets of your most potent weapon.


----------



## IrbiS

The Great One said:


> Well, at least we will know exactly how to fight what is your only worthwhile opposition. Must be pretty heart-breaking though isn't it? To see your enemy knowing full secrets of your most potent weapon.



You just KNOW about F-16 ? Our guys are flying Sushka, Mirage


----------



## Max Pain

Max Pain said:


> why


why would they permanantly stay in Wesh Bengal?


----------



## Windjammer

The Great One said:


> Well, at least we will know exactly how to fight what is your only worthwhile opposition. Must be pretty heart-breaking though isn't it? To see your enemy knowing full secrets of your most potent weapon.


A person who knows how to ride a motorcycle will have no problem riding a bicycle but it's not easy for a cyclist to jump on a motorcycle and do the same. Hope you get the drift.
Apart from a couple of PAF pilots attached to PLAAF SU-30 Squadrons, likewise these pictures should also rattle your heart.

PAF Pilots On Sukhoi's Su-30 Flanker Fighter Jet - ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

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## The Great One

Windjammer said:


> A person who knows how to ride a motorcycle will have no problem riding a bicycle but it's not easy for a cyclist to jump on a motorcycle and do the same. Hope you get the drift.


We don't need to learn how to ride a motorbike, we only need to know how you are going to do it, so we can counter it.
And please, IAF pilots have been praised world over for their professionalism even in that infamous video by 'Youtube Terry'. We beat their asses in Cope '05 and we beat their asses in RF '08 (unlike what the video said) Your PAF pilots are nothing special outside of your collectively delusional brains.


Windjammer said:


> Apart from a couple of PAF pilots attached to PLAAF SU-30 Squadrons, likewise these pictures should also rattle your heart.


Not at all. In fact they make me happy. MKI and MKK have completely different Radars, Power-plants, Control Surfaces, Electronics, EW suites etc. Russians rate them half as good as ours and even they don't know all about the Israeli, Indian and French systems on board. I want PAF to be as delusional and incompetent as you, so as to form their tactics on the basis of MKK.

PAF's poor F-16 C/D's OTOH, we know everything bout its jammers, radar freqencies, sortie generation rate etc. Even if we didn't, our fleet of MKI's is far superior to it anyway.



Max Pain said:


> why would they permanantly stay in Wesh Bengal?


Singapore is a tiny city-state. They have very limited airspace so they have to rely on friendly states like India and Australia to train them. Not to mention if Singapore was attacked pre-emptively, they could lose their entire fleet in a single blow. Having their fighters around in rather strong countries who the aggressor is not gonna want to drag into war, ensures that some of their fleet would survive for payback.

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## Windjammer

[QUOTE="The Great One, post: 7220752, member: 138274"*We don't need to learn how to ride a motorbike, we only need to know how you are going to do it, so we can counter it.*
And please, IAF pilots have been praised world over for their professionalism even in that infamous video by 'Youtube Terry'. We beat their asses in Cope '05 and we beat their asses in RF '08 (unlike what the video said) Your PAF pilots are nothing special outside of your collectively delusional brains.[/quote]
*The highlighted part proves that you are just a fan boy material who has no clues about aerial warfare. So you exercise with Singapore's jets but think you can learn PAF combat and tactics. And you really think your Indian pilots are worth something when in all their history, the only time they managed to perform was in Kargil..... only because there was no air opposition since they were conducting sorties on their side of LOC,...as i said your tiny ego is forcing you to box above your weight.*


> Not at all. In fact they make me happy. MKI and MKK have completely different Radars, Power-plants, Control Surfaces, Electronics, EW suites etc. Russians rate them half as good as ours and even they don't know all about the Israeli, Indian and French systems on board. I want PAF to be as delusional and incompetent as you, so as to form their tactics on the basis of MKK.


Delusional and incompetent indeed that you are who has to brag about an aircraft that IAF had to ground three times and doesn't have a single kill to it's name and got whacked so badly in Indradanush that IAF decided to keep it's mouth shut until it got exposed by the other party.


> PAF's poor F-16 C/D's OTOH, we know everything bout its jammers, radar freqencies, sortie generation rate etc. Even if we didn't, our fleet of MKI's is far superior to it anyway.


Try to convince yourself by calling it poor, while earlier you were gloating on finding out it's capabilities.
Here we are talking about IAF which doesn't have the confidence to fly single engine over the parade venue....much less it has the ability to put up a fight. Just enjoy the Cobra manoeuvre and wonder where's the actual fire in Agni Pankh.

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## The Great One

Windjammer said:


> *The highlighted part proves that you are just a fan boy material who has no clues about aerial warfare. So you exercise with Singapore's jets but think you can learn PAF combat and tactics. And you really think your Indian pilots are worth something when in all their history, the only time they managed to perform was in Kargil..... only because there was no air opposition since they were conducting sorties on their side of LOC,...as i said your tiny ego is forcing you to box above your weight.*
> 
> Delusional and incompetent indeed that you are who has to brag about an aircraft that IAF had to ground three times and doesn't have a single kill to it's name and got whacked so badly in Indradanush that IAF decided to keep it's mouth shut until it got exposed by the other party.
> 
> Try to convince yourself by calling it poor, while earlier you were gloating on finding out it's capabilities.
> Here we are talking about which doesn't have the confidence to fly single engine over the parade venue....much less it has the ability to put up a fight. Just enjoy the Cobra manoeuvre and wonder where's the actual fire in Agni Pankh.


All I see is a whole lot of blah blah.
Not a single legible argument here. Seeing your posting history, its not surprising of course.


----------



## Windjammer

The Great One said:


> All I see is a whole lot of blah blah.
> Not a single legible argument here. Seeing your posting history, its not surprising of course.


How did you like the taste of your own medicine or you just simply lost for words.
First acquire the ability for a legit argument, taking cheap shots is a double edge sword, it may satisfy your ego but be prepared for your bubble to burst.

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## Windjammer

The Great One said:


> Right. More anonymous blatter like the 3-0
> 
> BTW in the very next para
> 
> During the Typhoon's visit to the US in 2005 it was pitted against the F-22, this was not officially confirmed. The Typhoon could not see the F-22 but could detect that it was being painted by the F-22 and took "appropriate" measures with defensive aids. In one on one combat the Typhoon did the same job as on the Su-30, the F-22 could not handle the Typhoons close in and were shocked. It did not go all the Typhoon's way but the Americans had a sobering encounter, with the F-22 sacrificing much for stealth



Yup, anything from a reputable source is anonymous since it exposes the mighty IAF but chest thumping by some internet warrior is the gospel truth.... 
Did you miss this........

More recently, there have been repeated reports that two RAF Typhoons deployed to the USA for OEU trails work have been flying against the F-22 at NAS China Lake, and have performed better than was expected. There was little surprise that Typhoon, with its world-class agility and high off-boresight missile capability was able to dominate "Within Visual Range" flight, but the aircraft did cause a surprise by getting a radar lock on the F22 at a suprisingly long range. The F-22s cried off, claiming that they were "unstealthed" anyway, although the next day´s scheduled two vs. two BWR engagement was canceled, and "the USAF decided they didn´t want to play any more .

- When this incident was reported on a website frequented by front-line RAF aircrew a senior RAF officer urged an end to the converstaion on security grounds.

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## pkd

Floaing of MMRCA Tender clearly suggests that India do not have as much confidence in MKI as is being bragged.


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## fatman17

The Great One said:


> We don't need to learn how to ride a motorbike, we only need to know how you are going to do it, so we can counter it.
> And please, IAF pilots have been praised world over for their professionalism even in that infamous video by 'Youtube Terry'. We beat their asses in Cope '05 and we beat their asses in RF '08 (unlike what the video said) Your PAF pilots are nothing special outside of your collectively delusional brains.
> 
> Not at all. In fact they make me happy. MKI and MKK have completely different Radars, Power-plants, Control Surfaces, Electronics, EW suites etc. Russians rate them half as good as ours and even they don't know all about the Israeli, Indian and French systems on board. I want PAF to be as delusional and incompetent as you, so as to form their tactics on the basis of MKK.
> 
> PAF's poor F-16 C/D's OTOH, we know everything bout its jammers, radar freqencies, sortie generation rate etc. Even if we didn't, our fleet of MKI's is far superior to it anyway.
> 
> 
> Singapore is a tiny city-state. They have very limited airspace so they have to rely on friendly states like India and Australia to train them. Not to mention if Singapore was attacked pre-emptively, they could lose their entire fleet in a single blow. Having their fighters around in rather strong countries who the aggressor is not gonna want to drag into war, ensures that some of their fleet would survive for payback.




Hopefully the IAF has overcome it's spares and maintenance issues to do such.

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## nomi007

Facebook
Name Gr.Capt. Aamir Masood

Unit 9th squadron "Griffins"
Flying F-16s 
Viper Hours 3000
Currently flying Su-30MK1 for the Chinese Navy.

2006: Commanding Officer of 9 sqn.

Born in 1966, Group Captain Aamir Masood, joined PAF at an early age.

He took his commission in the PAF as a pilot of F-16 fighter aircraft in 1988, and until today has served in the PAF. The Government of Pakistan awarded him the Sitara-e-Basalat (Star of Good Conduct), the Tamgha-e-Imtiaz (medal of excellence), the Tamgha-e-Istaqlal, the Jumahuriat Tamgha, the Nuclear test Medal, the Resolution Day Golden Jubilee medal and the Independence Day Golden Jubilee medal for his achievements and abilities.
He reached 1000 flying hours in 1997, and 2000 flying hours in 2006; he also surpassed 2000 flying hours on the F-16 Fighting Falcon, and will soon reach 3000 flying hours. He is one of the few pilots of the Pakistan Air Force that have flown the Sukhoi Su-30 Mk I with the Chinese People's Liberation Army Navy.
He was the Commanding Officer of the multi-role squadron of the Pakistan Air Force, the "Griffins".


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## Thorough Pro

where is the picture?



Windjammer said:


> *Typhoon Zappers.
> 
> Finally, after some persuading, a source found and sent me the contingent picture just before their departure for Antonio Eagle deployment. These are the one's who OWNED the Typhoons back in 2008 fleecing them 3 out of 3 in air combat!*

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## Windjammer

Thorough Pro said:


> where is the picture?


For some reason, many of the images i upload seem to get deleted.
That picture was with all the ground crew, here's one just of the pilots who scored against the Typhoon.

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## fatman17

Lethal weapon


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## fatman17

pkd said:


> Floaing of MMRCA Tender clearly suggests that India do not have as much confidence in MKI as is being bragged.



Tender is dead. India buying only 36 Rafale off the shelf. OTOH increasing their SU30mki numbers.

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## fatman17

Anatolian eagle

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## Stephen Cohen

fatman17 said:


> Tender is dead. India buying only 36 Rafale off the shelf. OTOH increasing their SU30mki numbers.



India will definitely buy more Rafales 

We never invest in a platform just for tokenism sake 
The investment in infrastructure ; spares ; training ; maintenance ; weapons is a lot 
So that must be utilised properly 

That is how the system works in India ; every investment is made for a very long term 

*Rafale will be there till 2050 *

After a couple of years IAF will start MAKING noises about threats from China
write letters to PM ; and Govt of India will simply buy more 

Su 30 MKI orders will depend on when FGFA is inducted

If FGFA is to be delayed then more MKI will be added up


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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> For some reason, many of the images i upload seem to get deleted.
> That picture was with all the ground crew, here's one just of the pilots who scored against the Typhoon.





Thorough Pro said:


> where is the picture?








@Windjammer Sir a question, PAF's fourth f-16 squadron, the 19th where is it based, sargodha or mianwali or somewhere else?

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## Windjammer

truthseeker2010 said:


> @Windjammer Sir a question, PAF's fourth f-16 squadron, the 19th where is it based, sargodha or mianwali or somewhere else?


I believe they are co-located with No 9 and 11(OCU) Squadrons in Sargodha.


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## Stealth



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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> I believe they are co-located with No 9 and 11(OCU) Squadrons in Sargodha.



I may be wrong but 19 Sqn was relocated to jacobabad with 5 Sqn.


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> I may be wrong but 19 Sqn was relocated to jacobabad with 5 Sqn.



*Not exactly sure as this source tells us that it's based in Minawali.

Pakistan Air Force Squadrons*


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## Donatello

Stephen Cohen said:


> India will definitely buy more Rafales
> 
> We never invest in a platform just for tokenism sake
> The investment in infrastructure ; spares ; training ; maintenance ; weapons is a lot
> So that must be utilised properly
> 
> That is how the system works in India ; every investment is made for a very long term
> 
> *Rafale will be there till 2050 *
> 
> After a couple of years IAF will start MAKING noises about threats from China
> write letters to PM ; and Govt of India will simply buy more
> 
> Su 30 MKI orders will depend on when FGFA is inducted
> 
> If FGFA is to be delayed then more MKI will be added up



When will the stupid in your wake up?

First, there is no such thing as the FGFA...it is only a fantasy in Indian minds. The plane it is supposed to be ripped off, T-50 is delayed itself.

Last but the most important of all, this is PAF F-16 threads. So keep your BS elsewhere.

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## aftab_s81

> Last but the most important of all, this is PAF F-16 threads. So keep your BS elsewhere.


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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> *Not exactly sure as this source tells us that it's based in Minawali.
> 
> Pakistan Air Force Squadrons*



That's before re equipment with the vipers


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> That's before re equipment with the vipers



It quotes the equipment as F-16. ??

No.19 Squadron Warhawks
Sherdils F-16
F-7P Mianwali

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## fatman17

No 5 Squadron


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## fatman17

Look out below


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## Windjammer

*PAF F-16s along with other participants for Antonio Eagle 2015.*

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## nomi007

Windjammer said:


> *PAF F-16s along with other participants for Antonio Eagle 2015.*


picture of the year


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## mingle

nomi007 said:


> picture of the year


This exercise give me hint a bombing campaign in Syria very near future againest Daish


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## fatman17

Bombs aweigh


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## Side-Winder

Not sure if have been posted..

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## nomi007



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## fatman17

Aviation week Related Articles

Thunder Remains Silent on Export Order 

Program Execution, Ramp-Up Trump New-Order Talk Ahead Of Paris Air Show 

F-16 Deal for Pakistan Could Feature Advanced Weapons

China Reveals Two-seat FC-1/JF-17


Note point no 3

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## DANGER-ZONE

*Enjoy the large picture from Airliners.*

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## Windjammer

PAF Chief, Sohail Aman ready to fly F-16 during Anatolian Eagle 2015 at Konya, leading the Pakistani contingent.

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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> Aviation week Related Articles
> 
> Thunder Remains Silent on Export Order
> 
> Program Execution, Ramp-Up Trump New-Order Talk Ahead Of Paris Air Show
> 
> F-16 Deal for Pakistan Could Feature Advanced Weapons
> 
> China Reveals Two-seat FC-1/JF-17
> 
> 
> Note point no 3



Can only be either the HARM or the AIM9X?


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Aviation week Related Articles
> 
> Thunder Remains Silent on Export Order
> 
> Program Execution, Ramp-Up Trump New-Order Talk Ahead Of Paris Air Show
> 
> F-16 Deal for Pakistan Could Feature
> 
> Note point no 3


Fatman.
Any further details on the F16 news .Also a link would be appreciated as I cant find it on the aviation weekly website. I think 14-18 new ones and 28 MLUed ones would make it perfect for PAF.
Araz


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## fatman17

araz said:


> Fatman.
> Any further details on the F16 news .Also a link would be appreciated as I cant find it on the aviation weekly website. I think 14-18 new ones and 28 MLUed ones would make it perfect for PAF.
> Araz



The article requires a log in. However trying to get details from a AF source

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## fatman17

TUAF pilots with PAF Viper in the background.

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## fatman17

Vipers galore

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## cabatli_53



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## Donatello

cabatli_53 said:


>



Hey buddy,
Any videos of the PAF f-16 mass launch from AE'15?


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## cabatli_53

Donatello said:


> Hey buddy,
> Any videos of the PAF f-16 mass launch from AE'15?




We have just this new video revealed in those days bro. If a new one related with Pakistani AF are revealed regarding Anatolian Eagle 2015-01, I will share it to here as well...


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## Donatello

cabatli_53 said:


> We have just this new video revealed in those days bro. If a new one related with Pakistani AF are revealed regarding Anatolian Eagle 2015-01, I will share it to here as well...



hmm, cool. I saw this video, couldn't find the PAF F-16s launch......saw the Turkish, USA units. So was just wondering. There seemed to be plenty of spotters there, so maybe someone will upload?

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## Peaceful Civilian

Donatello said:


> Can only be either the HARM or the AIM9X?


Or AIM120 D


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## Donatello

Peaceful Civilian said:


> Or AIM120 D


AIM120D is evolutionary........AIM9X and HARM are a different league and ball game. They take the combat scenario to a whole new level.


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## Neptune

Donatello said:


> hmm, cool. I saw this video, couldn't find the PAF F-16s launch......saw the Turkish, USA units. So was just wondering. There seemed to be plenty of spotters there, so maybe someone will upload?



I suggest you guys to wait for the TAF General Staff releases. Here's their social media accounts belonging to Photo & Film Command:

Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri - YouTube

Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri - Google+

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## fatman17

Konya

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## Donatello

Hoping that the request for 18 BLK52s and 15 MLU F-16s gets approval.........sources say PAF has requested some extra goodies to go with the jets this time.

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## mingle

Donatello said:


> Hoping that the request for 18 BLK52s and 15 MLU F-16s gets approval.........sources say PAF has requested some extra goodies to go with the jets this time.


Not sure but Iraqi F 16 s R in limbo too.reason is situation in Iraq .


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## Donatello

mingle said:


> Not sure but Iraqi F 16 s R in limbo too.reason is situation in Iraq .



We need to move fast.....if Donald Trump became the president......wallah!
@MastanKhan

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## ziaulislam

Donatello said:


> Hoping that the request for 18 BLK52s and 15 MLU F-16s gets approval.........sources say PAF has requested some extra goodies to go with the jets this time.


with evolving threat scenario esp the rafale, it would have been better to request the block 60


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## Donatello

ziaulislam said:


> with evolving threat scenario esp the rafale, it would have been better to request the block 60



Not possible, since there is no use in just getting a limited number of BLK60s, while the majority of your fleet is BLK52. Secondly, you could ask to retrofit the SABR on the existing F-16s, but a lot of them will be retiring in 10-15 years....so PAF has to go with cost benefit analysis.
We would be very fortunate if we can have an all BVR F-16 fleet of 100+ aircraft. 
AESA will come soon enough on the JF-17 BLKIII

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## mingle

Donatello said:


> We need to move fast.....if Donald Trump became the president......wallah!
> @MastanKhan


Donald Duck has no chance he will fizzle out in primaries.For him it's a publicity stunt that's it .it will be a good match but between Jeb Bush and Ms Clinton .I can tell u it will be photo finish Both of them our buddies no worries .

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## ziaulislam

Donatello said:


> Not possible, since there is no use in just getting a limited number of BLK60s, while the majority of your fleet is BLK52. Secondly, you could ask to retrofit the SABR on the existing F-16s, but a lot of them will be retiring in 10-15 years....so PAF has to go with cost benefit analysis.
> We would be very fortunate if we can have an all BVR F-16 fleet of 100+ aircraft.
> AESA will come soon enough on the JF-17 BLKIII


i think PAF should think of SABR for the previously newly bought block 52 and for any new ones it intend to buy..if it doesnt, than i doubt the cost effectiveness of buying new vipers..better to stick with older/second hand vipers than?

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## Donatello

ziaulislam said:


> i think PAF should think of SABR for the previously newly bought block 52 and for any new ones it intend to buy..if it doesnt, than i doubt the cost effectiveness of buying new vipers..better to stick with older/second hand vipers than?



If we get 2 squadrons of F-16s MLU and new BLK52s, then it replaces two old Mirage and/or F-7 squadrons, so that in itself is a massive boost. Not to mention the time to set up and transition the squadron would be minimum since PAF already has the infrastructure, combat doctrine and pilot training in place.


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## ziaulislam

Donatello said:


> If we get 2 squadrons of F-16s MLU and new BLK52s, then it replaces two old Mirage and/or F-7 squadrons, so that in itself is a massive boost. Not to mention the time to set up and transition the squadron would be minimum since PAF already has the infrastructure, combat doctrine and pilot training in place.


noone will doubt the MLUs but buying new block52 without sabr will be debatable, whether it will be wise to spend money on a jet that cost 3-4 times more than a standard JF-17 thunder. Saving time argument can also be brought into question as unlike MLUs , even if orders are given now, it will take at least 2 years to get the new Vipers. By that time we would have started to induct block 3 thunders
so may be as a package deal it would be a good choice, but investing a little more to get SABR on board will make it on par with incoming batch of rafales, nullifying an technological superiority that IAF may attain



fatman17 said:


> The inside news is that Pakistan is reviving the option of buying 18 F16s CD models from the US. They will be purchased by Pakistani funds. Nearly 1.2B US $ will be required.


wasn't there a time frame with that deal.? I am indicating this for the reason of cost. as time frame has passed the cost may not be the same 1.2 billion we paid for the first 18 batch of block52 vipers


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## araz

ziaulislam said:


> noone will doubt the MLUs but buying new block52 without sabr will be debatable, whether it will be wise to spend money on a jet that cost 3-4 times more than a standard JF-17 thunder. Saving time argument can also be brought into question as unlike MLUs , even if orders are given now, it will take at least 2 years to get the new Vipers. By that time we would have started to induct block 3 thunders
> so may be as a package deal it would be a good choice, but investing a little more to get SABR on board will make it on par with incoming batch of rafales, nullifying an technological superiority that IAF may attain
> 
> 
> wasn't there a time frame with that deal.? I am indicating this for the reason of cost. as time frame has passed the cost may not be the same 1.2 billion we paid for the first 18 batch of block52 vipers


The problem is not what you want to buy but what the US Congress will allow the Government to sell. Secondly with hither to untried technology there is money required to do the research. I know that SABR is available but which aircorce has actually ordered it ? So if we are the launch customer then we will have to bear the cost of integration and testing which could be substantial. Knowing the way the. US has acted in the past is it worth relying on it for technology that may face problems in the future. Thirdly the utility of AESA when modern day warfare will be a netcentric affair with AWACS guiding the planes and most encounters taking place within BVR range( at least in theory ) what is the cost vs benefit analysis. You need to remember that the technology does not currently exist in the region and the US is always reluctant to introduce newer technology in the subcontinental theatre so there might be problems even if for a short period. It is interesting that none of the countries buying 16s including Israel have opted for AESA. A half a decade later AESA would not be such a novel thing and getting it at that time might not be so troublesome nor expensive.
Araz

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## Basel

araz said:


> The problem is not what you want to buy but what the US Congress will allow the Government to sell. Secondly with hither to untried technology there is money required to do the research. I know that SABR is available but which aircorce has actually ordered it ? So if we are the launch customer then we will have to bear the cost of integration and testing which could be substantial. Knowing the way the. US has acted in the past is it worth relying on it for technology that may face problems in the future. Thirdly the utility of AESA when modern day warfare will be a netcentric affair with AWACS guiding the planes and most encounters taking place within BVR range( at least in theory ) what is the cost vs benefit analysis. You need to remember that the technology does not currently exist in the region and the US is always reluctant to introduce newer technology in the subcontinental theatre so there might be problems even if for a short period. It is interesting that none of the countries buying 16s including Israel have opted for AESA. A half a decade later AESA would not be such a novel thing and getting it at that time might not be so troublesome nor expensive.
> Araz



SABR / AGP-83 is already tested and even was offered to Taiwan as upgrade to their legacy F-16:

F-16V radar integration clears way for Taiwan upgrade - IHS Jane's 360
.


----------



## MastanKhan

araz said:


> The problem is not what you want to buy but what the US Congress will allow the Government to sell. Secondly with hither to untried technology there is money required to do the research. I know that SABR is available but which aircorce has actually ordered it ? So if we are the launch customer then we will have to bear the cost of integration and testing which could be substantial. Knowing the way the. US has acted in the past is it worth relying on it for technology that may face problems in the future. Thirdly the utility of AESA when modern day warfare will be a netcentric affair with AWACS guiding the planes and most encounters taking place within BVR range( at least in theory ) what is the cost vs benefit analysis. You need to remember that the technology does not currently exist in the region and the US is always reluctant to introduce newer technology in the subcontinental theatre so there might be problems even if for a short period. It is interesting that none of the countries buying 16s including Israel have opted for AESA. A half a decade later AESA would not be such a novel thing and getting it at that time might not be so troublesome nor expensive.
> Araz



Sir,

That analysis is not correct---the awacs will be taken out in the first 48 to 72 hours----. Secondly----none of the nations face a massive enemy air force like that of the indian air force.

Next when 3/4th of your air force has less potent aircraft than the enemy aircraft----then a technical edge is a must----.

Your argument sound to me like a RETD engineer that was buying a Lincoln Town car from me in 1992 and I was discussing about ABS anti lock brakes and their benefits and he says---'the jury is still out on it'. 5 years later people would not want to buy a car without ABS


----------



## araz

Basel said:


> SABR / AGP-83 is already tested and even was offered to Taiwan as upgrade to their legacy F-16:
> 
> F-16V radar integration clears way for Taiwan upgrade - IHS Jane's 360
> .


And they did not go for it!!!Reason. Look the point still stands the US will not offer you something that is not present in the region. The prospect of AESA was there even with the 52s that we ought and we did not go for it on account of US reluctance. Would that have changed? You say yes and I say No -@@@@ lets wait and find out.
@Mastan Khan.
I dont deny the utility but the feasibility of AESA from US. If we get it from China/via Selex it might make the argument a better one for the Congress to swallow. But in its current iteration I think it will be a struggle. Lets wait and see.
Araz


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Getting it might be tougher---but the aesa is potent---a force multiplier.


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## syedali73

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Getting it might be tougher---but the aesa is potent---a force multiplier.


And I don't think Pakistan will ever reveal its acquisition of AESA. Who knows some of our JFs are already flying with it.


----------



## untitled

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Getting it might be tougher---but the aesa is potent---a force multiplier.



If Pakistan gets an American AESA, how long will it take the Indians to get a similar Radar ? on MKI, Rafale or M2K?


----------



## MastanKhan

persona_non_grata said:


> If Pakistan gets an American AESA, how long will it take the Indians to get a similar Radar ? on MKI, Rafale or M2K?



Hi,

Looking at their history---a longtime---. But that is not the issue----. Our focus needs to be on our capabilities first of all. They will be getting aesa on the rafales---if they are not getting it on their M2K upgrades---I can't say much.

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## Rajput_Pakistani

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Looking at their history---a longtime---. But that is not the issue----. Our focus needs to be on our capabilities first of all. They will be getting aesa on the rafales---if they are not getting it on their M2K upgrades---I can't say much.


Indian options... Israel, Russia, Europe, USA?
Pakistan options... China.. USA???, Europe????, Israel *x*

Pakistan economical recovery + successful completion of ZeA operation is the key to go. Regarding Indian Pakistan military parity.. JF17 has been a game changer.. BLK-2 and upcoming BLK-3 with AESA has created some real ripples across the border, especially when they look towards their own project. Saga of MMRCA and dropping number of operational squadrons, headache of maintaining SU-30 fleet are taking it toll.

Cutting edge technologies on both side acts as a deterrent.. which Pakistan policy is... to maintain a minimal credible nuclear/conventional parity.
In case of conflict, numbers will matter now. I have no reason to doubt, that after delivery of 3rd block JF17, PAC will start a new project.. they have acquired expertise, knowledge and infrastructure of aviation industry via JF17 project, it will not end with 3rd block. PAF will and take any chance of getting F16s also, whenever available, just like Ex-Jordanians...

AESA from USA in current situation is a big No-No.

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## GURU DUTT

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> Indian options... Israel, Russia, Europe, USA?
> Pakistan options... China.. USA???, Europe????, Israel *x*
> 
> Pakistan economical recovery + successful completion of ZeA operation is the key to go. Regarding Indian Pakistan military parity.. JF17 has been a game changer.. BLK-2 and upcoming BLK-3 with AESA has created some real ripples across the border, especially when they look towards their own project. Saga of MMRCA and dropping number of operational squadrons, headache of maintaining SU-30 fleet are taking it toll.
> 
> Cutting edge technologies on both side acts as a deterrent.. which Pakistan policy is... to maintain a minimal credible nuclear/conventional parity.
> In case of conflict, numbers will matter now. I have no reason to doubt, that after delivery of 3rd block JF17, PAC will start a new project.. they have acquired expertise, knowledge and infrastructure of aviation industry via JF17 project, it will not end with 3rd block. PAF will and take any chance of getting F16s also, whenever available, just like Ex-Jordanians...
> 
> AESA from USA in current situation is a big No-No.


what if told you india is already testing a new version of LCA with indian made AESA + wants or is in process of exploring possibility of fitting the same AESA in its second line of fighter planes (jags,Mig29,M2k) while a proto type of MKI with AESA radar and EW suite and self protection jammers is already in testing in russia

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## Rajput_Pakistani

GURU DUTT said:


> what if told you india is already testing a new version of LCA with indian made AESA + wants or is in process of exploring possibility of fitting the same AESA in its second line of fighter planes (jags,Mig29,M2k) while a proto type of MKI with AESA radar and EW suite and self protection jammers is already in testing in russia


Who is stopping you?
Whether install AESA on every single plane of your air force or on the heads of all your ministers, its no concern for us now. Concern for us is how many on a single day we will be facing?
This was the bottom line of my post.

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## GURU DUTT

Rajput_Pakistani said:


> Who is stopping you?
> Whether install AESA on every single plane of your air force or on the heads of all your ministers, its no concern for us now. Concern for us is how many on a single day we will be facing?
> This was the bottom line of my post.


welli got yourpoint but here alsowe have neumaricalsuperiorty backed bythe latest aviation techin this theater thanks to inputs from israel and russia did you know india is also in process of intigrating latest BVR version of Derby ER

I-Derby ER – All New Performance | Paris Air Show 2015 content from Aviation Week

The new seeker is lighter and more compact than its predecessor, thus clearing valuable space which has been used by the missile designers to increase the propulsion system by adding a second mode (kick), accelerating the missile at the terminal phase of the flight. This new addition increases the range of the I-Derby ER beyond 100 km., significantly more than its current “short/medium” range capability.

This “second kick” greatly improves the missile’s performance. “This phase is not serial, but operates independently of the primary rocket propulsion as it is activated at any time during the fight, by the flight control system.” Yaniv explains. The second pulse would likely kick in when the missile is closing on its target, accelerating it and increasing its kinematic envelope, thus increasing its “no escape zone”.

The use of SDR technology means the missile seeker can be reprogrammed with software upgrades including new waveforms, duty cycles and processing techniques, addressing new threats, countermeasures and techniques that may evolve through its lifespan of 20-30 years.



Another advantage of the I-Derby ER is its ability to lock onto targets before and after launch, enabling the aircraft to engage targets at all ranges.

Currently completing development, I-Derby ER will soon be available for delivery for new orders, or replacement of existing stocks. “We already have several customers seeking long-range intercept capabilities, some are looking at I-Derby ER as the most suitable and affordable solution for their requirements,” says RAFAEL.

A major advantage of the I-Derby ER is that it uses the same missile envelope. Unlike the AAIM-120D or Meteor, I-Derby ER will be compatible with aircraft currently cleared to carry Derby. RAFAEL claims it will be able to deliver 80% of the Meteor’s performance at a third of its cost. It is also superior to the AIM-120C7 and more affordable, the company claims. Already cleared on F-16 (Block 52), F-5E, Kfir and Sea Harrier, I-Derby ER integration tests are currently under way on the Indian Tejas LCA.


----------



## araz

GURU DUTT said:


> welli got yourpoint but here alsowe have neumaricalsuperiorty backed bythe latest aviation techin this theater thanks to inputs from israel and russia did you know india is also in process of intigrating latest BVR version of Derby ER
> 
> I-Derby ER – All New Performance | Paris Air Show 2015 content from Aviation Week
> 
> The new seeker is lighter and more compact than its predecessor, thus clearing valuable space which has been used by the missile designers to increase the propulsion system by adding a second mode (kick), accelerating the missile at the terminal phase of the flight. This new addition increases the range of the I-Derby ER beyond 100 km., significantly more than its current “short/medium” range capability.
> 
> This “second kick” greatly improves the missile’s performance. “This phase is not serial, but operates independently of the primary rocket propulsion as it is activated at any time during the fight, by the flight control system.” Yaniv explains. The second pulse would likely kick in when the missile is closing on its target, accelerating it and increasing its kinematic envelope, thus increasing its “no escape zone”.
> 
> The use of SDR technology means the missile seeker can be reprogrammed with software upgrades including new waveforms, duty cycles and processing techniques, addressing new threats, countermeasures and techniques that may evolve through its lifespan of 20-30 years.
> 
> 
> 
> Another advantage of the I-Derby ER is its ability to lock onto targets before and after launch, enabling the aircraft to engage targets at all ranges.
> 
> Currently completing development, I-Derby ER will soon be available for delivery for new orders, or replacement of existing stocks. “We already have several customers seeking long-range intercept capabilities, some are looking at I-Derby ER as the most suitable and affordable solution for their requirements,” says RAFAEL.
> 
> A major advantage of the I-Derby ER is that it uses the same missile envelope. Unlike the AAIM-120D or Meteor, I-Derby ER will be compatible with aircraft currently cleared to carry Derby. RAFAEL claims it will be able to deliver 80% of the Meteor’s performance at a third of its cost. It is also superior to the AIM-120C7 and more affordable, the company claims. Already cleared on F-16 (Block 52), F-5E, Kfir and Sea Harrier, I-Derby ER integration tests are currently under way on the Indian Tejas LCA.


If you do so good for IAF. The posts are not about IAF and ìts integration strategy but of PAF. We know IAF will also make strides and improve but to us it is a matter of what PAF is doing. From legacy fighters to a BVR capable fleet is a massive improvement for us.
Araz

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## GURU DUTT

araz said:


> If you do so good for IAF. The posts are not about IAF and ìts integration strategy but of PAF. We know IAF will also make strides and improve but to us it is a matter of what PAF is doing. From legacy fighters to a BVR capable fleet is a massive improvement for us.
> Araz


you dint get my intention sir what i was saying that your primarry fighteris and will be F-16s and many mebers from your side think they with AIM C BVR is a invincible combo but with new improoved Derby ER(which is compatiable to all fighters with derby)easily takes away "technikal edge"from PAF and when we already neumarical superiorty over PAF hence lets talk peace


----------



## Neptune

More from AE:

PAF F-16B MLU







Spanish Air Force Ala 15 Hornets







USAF F-15C with 2x Mig29 killer mark







TURAF F-16C/Ds












RAF Eurofighter Typhoon







TURAF E-7T AEW&C

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## Basel

araz said:


> And they did not go for it!!!Reason. Look the point still stands the US will not offer you something that is not present in the region. The prospect of AESA was there even with the 52s that we ought and we did not go for it on account of US reluctance. Would that have changed? You say yes and I say No -@@@@ lets wait and find out.
> @Mastan Khan.
> I dont deny the utility but the feasibility of AESA from US. If we get it from China/via Selex it might make the argument a better one for the Congress to swallow. But in its current iteration I think it will be a struggle. Lets wait and see.
> Araz



If they did not go for it then why Northrop Gurmman delivered first Radar to Lockheed Martin for upgrade program??

Northrop Grumman delivers first EMD APG-83 radar - AMD – Aerospace Manufacturing and Design


----------



## araz

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Getting it might be tougher---but the aesa is potent---a force multiplier.


Nobody denies the need and the effectiveness of AESA. I have played the devils advocate to make people see the difficulties involved in the procurement. Lets wait and see.
Araz


----------



## ziaulislam

i still dont understand why people are bringing economy in SABR/AESA induction with NEWER f-16.
if you can pay 1.3 billion $ for brand new F-1652, you can Pay 100 million or more to get the SABR on them.
*
yes it woud make sense not to go for it, if you are going for second hand F-16s*

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## Paksanity

Neptune said:


> More from AE:
> 
> PAF F-16B MLU
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spanish Air Force Ala 15 Hornets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> USAF F-15C with 2x Mig29 killer mark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TURAF F-16C/Ds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RAF Eurofighter Typhoon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TURAF E-7T AEW&C



Thanks for sharing wonderful pictures. Good to see E-7T put to work. NATO E-3 are also participating or E-7T s are doing all the job?

For a moment I thought Eurofighter is rolling on rooftop...lol

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## Donatello

GURU DUTT said:


> what if told you india is already testing a new version of LCA with indian made AESA + wants or is in process of exploring possibility of fitting the same AESA in its second line of fighter planes (jags,Mig29,M2k) while a proto type of MKI with AESA radar and EW suite and self protection jammers is already in testing in russia



SO basically, it is all in the future, just like getting the Rafale.
Hmm, i am sorry, but the way your air force has procured equipment and the drama it created, one cannot simply take anything for a serious talk.
And India is already testing a new version of LCA? Dayem, when did they test the initial version properly?

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## truthseeker2010

Neptune said:


>



this looks like EF is standing on the roof of the building..... Lol

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## Neptune

Paksanity said:


> Thanks for sharing wonderful pictures. Good to see E-7T put to work. NATO E-3 are also participating or E-7T s are doing all the job?
> 
> For a moment I thought Eurofighter is rolling on rooftop...lol



Your welcome. Both have participated. E-3A is stationed in Konya too. She played the AWACS of Blue Team. But I assume E-7Ts were at the disposal of 132. "Hançer" FİLO which was the squadron played as the Red Team during the exercise.

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## GURU DUTT

Donatello said:


> SO basically, it is all in the future, just like getting the Rafale.
> Hmm, i am sorry, but the way your air force has procured equipment and the drama it created, one cannot simply take anything for a serious talk.
> And India is already testing a new version of LCA? Dayem, when did they test the initial version properly?


they(HAL/ARDE) had been testing at least 8 prototypes of LCA in three diffrent version since 2001 and this AESA oneisan older prtotype now fitted with indian made AESA "UTTAM" radar and AESA based EW suite and new version of self protection jammers as per new dictatfrom PMO and DM MOD has put this programme on highest priorty list even the existing EL-2032M MMR radar is made better with new software inputs and its search and track range is extended firther which earlier was 80 KM for 2 square meter RCS target +LCA is already intigrated with DASH HMDS formore than 90 degree off boresight +Lightning 3 LDP all types of LGBs, PGMs ,Python4/5 ,Derby and now is in process getting intigrated with latest BVR version of Derby +its already been inducted in IAF and FOC iss alted for dec 2015 but still im sure you will make fun of LCA ....lagge raho


----------



## Bossman

GURU DUTT said:


> they(HAL/ARDE) had been testing at least 8 prototypes of LCA in three diffrent version since 2001 and this AESA oneisan older prtotype now fitted with indian made AESA "UTTAM" radar and AESA based EW suite and new version of self protection jammers as per new dictatfrom PMO and DM MOD has put this programme on highest priorty list even the existing EL-2032M MMR radar is made better with new software inputs and its search and track range is extended firther which earlier was 80 KM for 2 square meter RCS target +LCA is already intigrated with DASH HMDS formore than 90 degree off boresight +Lightning 3 LDP all types of LGBs, PGMs ,Python4/5 ,Derby and now is in process getting intigrated with latest BVR version of Derby +its already been inducted in IAF and FOC iss alted for dec 2015 but still im sure you will make fun of LCA ....lagge raho


 
You don't have to convince people on this forum, you have to convince IAF. IAF doesn't seem to share your or HAL's enthusiasm for the LCA.

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## GURU DUTT

Bossman said:


> You don't have to convince people on this forum, you have to convince IAF. IAF doesn't seem to share your or HAL's enthusiasm for the LCA.


well saaeen ji thing was /is corruption in top brass of MOD and IAF who prefferred "foreign maal"for which they got "kickbacks"and free foriegn holidays "with family" for various fictitous reasons now with a local built fighter they had do miss all that so they tried every trick in the book to scutall LCA project by contantlli changing the goal posts

but this prooved to be a blessing in disguise for LCA which started as a cheap replacement for Mig 21 for point defence morphed into worlds most comapct , lightest multirole fighter with very less RCS deu to its design and all composite skin (45% + composites in its total body mass ) 

so now with IN betting heavily on Naval LCA even IAF is finding it pretty good option + both PMO & MOD led by owr new DM have given IAF "an offer they cant refuse"


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

truthseeker2010 said:


> this looks like EF is standing on the roof of the building..... Lol



or on the Ski-jump .....


----------



## Donatello

GURU DUTT said:


> they(HAL/ARDE) had been testing at least 8 prototypes of LCA in three diffrent version since 2001 and this AESA oneisan older prtotype now fitted with indian made AESA "UTTAM" radar and AESA based EW suite and new version of self protection jammers as per new dictatfrom PMO and DM MOD has put this programme on highest priorty list even the existing EL-2032M MMR radar is made better with new software inputs and its search and track range is extended firther which earlier was 80 KM for 2 square meter RCS target +LCA is already intigrated with DASH HMDS formore than 90 degree off boresight +Lightning 3 LDP all types of LGBs, PGMs ,Python4/5 ,Derby and now is in process getting intigrated with latest BVR version of Derby +its already been inducted in IAF and FOC iss alted for dec 2015 but still im sure you will make fun of LCA ....lagge raho



Oh wow, good for you......is it still indigenous?


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## GURU DUTT

Donatello said:


> Oh wow, good for you......is it still indigenous?


yes sir it is as its an indian design with american engine and israeli and french avioniks & wepon systems even more indegenous to india than what JF-17 is to Pakistan

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## denel

GURU DUTT said:


> yes sir it is as its an indian design with american engine and israeli and french avioniks & wepon systems even more indegenous to india than what JF-17 is to Pakistan


well pointed. even car makers source parts of part manufacturers

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## Donatello

GURU DUTT said:


> yes sir it is as its an indian design with american engine and israeli and french avioniks & wepon systems even more indegenous to india than what JF-17 is to Pakistan



Except, JF-17 has been flying and vowing crowds around the world, meanwhile IAF is having second thoughts about LCA. Wonder what may be the cause?

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## Bossman

GURU DUTT said:


> well saaeen ji thing was /is corruption in top brass of MOD and IAF who prefferred "foreign maal"for which they got "kickbacks"and free foriegn holidays "with family" for various fictitous reasons now with a local built fighter they had do miss all that so they tried every trick in the book to scutall LCA project by contantlli changing the goal posts
> 
> but this prooved to be a blessing in disguise for LCA which started as a cheap replacement for Mig 21 for point defence morphed into worlds most comapct , lightest multirole fighter with very less RCS deu to its design and all composite skin (45% + composites in its total body mass )
> 
> so now with IN betting heavily on Naval LCA even IAF is finding it pretty good option + both PMO & MOD led by owr new DM have given IAF "an offer they cant refuse"



So you are saying that Rafaele is a corrupt deal and Modi is getting his share.

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## Dazzler

Isn't this f-16 thread ?

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## GURU DUTT

Donatello said:


> Except, JF-17 has been flying and vowing crowds around the world, meanwhile IAF is having second thoughts about LCA. Wonder what may be the cause?


well even if they have they dont have any other option but to make most from what they are offerred tommorow if they want F22 doesnt means MOD is going to give them that



Bossman said:


> So you are saying that Rafaele is a corrupt deal and Modi is getting his share.


no what i mean is earlier UPA goverment dellibaretelli said no to french when they offred to setup entire assembally and manufacturing line of there M2K in india (which IAF orignalli wanted) deu to there eyes on kickbacks from rafale fighter contract which had so many loop holes that it was impossible to sign itas it was and abig frace to get "kickbacks"and thats why NaMo & DM/MOD scrapped it 

had he(NaMo) been corrupt he could have easily bought 126 rafales instead of 36 and never preusered DRDO/ARDE/HAL & indian armed forces to go ahead with indegenous defnce equipment but looks like your hate for NaMo doesnt lets you see his nationalism , honesty and sinsearity towards india


----------



## GHOST RIDER

Neptune said:


> More from AE:
> 
> PAF F-16B MLU
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spanish Air Force Ala 15 Hornets
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> USAF F-15C with 2x Mig29 killer mark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TURAF F-16C/Ds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RAF Eurofighter Typhoon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TURAF E-7T AEW&C



PAF F-16B pilot wearing helmet mounted display ...

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## Neptune

GHOST RIDER said:


> PAF F-16B pilot wearing helmet mounted display ...



JHMCS, So what?


----------



## Windjammer

*Read the red writing under the RWR and guess who was leading PAF contingent for Anatolian Eagle-2015.
*

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## Majid Qamar

Windjammer said:


> _Read the red writing under the RWR and guess who was leading PAF contingent for Anatolian Eagle-2015._


Wg Cdr Azman Khalil was leading the PAF contingent.

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## Side-Winder

Majid Qamar said:


> Wg Cdr Azman Khalil was leading the PAF contingent.



Welcome bro to the forum -- Have a nice stay

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## RAMPAGE

Neptune said:


> JHMCS, So what?


So Turkish pilots got their arses handed to them by PAF!


----------



## Windjammer

Majid Qamar said:


> Wg Cdr Azman Khalil was leading the PAF contingent.


Indeed, his name also appears under the canopy.
Same officer was involved in the amazing ''Salute to PAF Veterans'' GoPro display.

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## raazh

RAMPAGE said:


> So Turkish pilots got their arses handed to them by PAF!


Turkish Pilots are equally competent and experienced. No need to start you vs me comparisons where non is needed ..

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## Neptune

RAMPAGE said:


> So Turkish pilots got their arses handed to them by PAF!



Ohh shit...I need a cave now mate 

BTW, HVKK released media about the bilateral agreement signed with PAF in regards with NATO MMFCT in which Pakistan is estimed to be the only country that provides instructor pilots as exchange officers to the programe, as well as its very own trainees.

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## Bratva

@Neptune I think Instructor pilot exchange program predates this formal agreement. Remember PAF instructor pilot who died with his turkish student in T-37 crash ?


----------



## Neptune

Bratva said:


> @Neptune I think Instructor pilot exchange program predates this formal agreement. Remember PAF instructor pilot who died with his turkish student in T-37 crash ?



Yeah. Sort of actually. AFAIK the previous agreement was one instructor exchange from each side. But from what I've read, the number have increased to two. As we know, PAF pilots in TURAF serve at 124. FİLO (Training, Standardization and Equipment Sq.) in Çigli AFB, its like a cross. But I've heard they flew with the topguns as well. (192nd and 132nd)

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## krash

Neptune said:


> Yeah. Sort of actually. AFAIK the previous agreement was one instructor exchange from each side. But from what I've read, the number have increased to two. As we know, PAF pilots in TURAF serve at 124. FİLO (Training, Standardization and Equipment Sq.) in Çigli AFB, its like a cross. But I've heard they flew with the topguns as well. (192nd and 132nd)



As reported on the forum previously, there were two personnel each on exchange between the two forces year round, 1 instructor and 1 trainee. Reportedly Pakistani pilots on exchange have also flown with/against Israeli pilots during Anatolian Eagle when PAF itself was not participating. Quite a few pictures of Turkish pilots flying for different squadrons in the PAF out there.

No.9 Sqn pilots standing with Air chief ACM Farooq F. Khan moments before 23rd March parade air display. Turkish exchange pilot standing 1st from right.






No.14 Sqn (1993) with OC Wng cdr Gul Abbas Mela standing in the middle, Turkish pilot Capt Serdar standing 3rd from right.






No.11 Sqn. A Turkish exchange pilot on an escort mission to bid farewell to ACM Tanvir.









Windjammer said:


> *Read the red writing under the RWR and guess who was leading PAF contingent for Anatolian Eagle-2015.
> *



Can't stop loving those HMDs.

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## Neptune

krash said:


> As reported on the forum previously, there were two personnel each on exchange between the two forces year round, 1 instructor and 1 trainee. Reportedly Pakistani pilots on exchange have also flown with/against Israeli pilots during Anatolian Eagle when PAF itself was not participating. Quite a few pictures of Turkish pilots flying for different squadrons in the PAF out there.
> 
> No.9 Sqn pilots standing with Air chief ACM Farooq F. Khan moments before 23rd March parade air display. Turkish exchange pilot standing 1st from right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.14 Sqn (1993) with OC Wng cdr Gul Abbas Mela standing in the middle, Turkish pilot Capt Serdar standing 3rd from right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No.11 Sqn. A Turkish exchange pilot on an escort mission to bid farewell to ACM Tanvir.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't stop loving those HMDs.




So nice. Any other pics of Turkish servicemen in Pakistan ?

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## GHOST RIDER

Neptune said:


> So nice. Any other pics of Turkish servicemen in Pakistan ?


 
Captain Serdar with 14 Squadron (1993) 
(Extreme right: sitting)

Sorry for poor picture quality

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## krash

Neptune said:


> So nice. Any other pics of Turkish servicemen in Pakistan ?



I believe the first from the left in the front is a Turk. Do not have any details sadly so could be wrong too,






Also, I found this post by Najam Khan on the exchange pilot topic,



Najam Khan said:


> Since 1990s both Pakistan and Turkey have exchange pilots flying in their operational F-16 squadrons. Any exchange pilot has to perform duties just like any other pilot in the assigned unit.
> 
> One of the best thing a PAF exchange pilot enjoys in TUAF is flying. TUAF F-16 have too much flying as compare to PAF F-16s....when a pilot returns from Turkey he gets a good amount of hours credited under his belt.

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## Majid Qamar

*Griffins at Anatolian Eagle 2015*

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## Majid Qamar



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## DESERT FIGHTER

more from AE 15:
@Neptune

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## Meejee

Thought this was related to the Falcons, so posting here

Pentagon’s F-35 stealth jet can’t win dogfight – report — RT USA


----------



## fatman17

Meejee said:


> Thought this was related to the Falcons, so posting here
> 
> Pentagon’s F-35 stealth jet can’t win dogfight – report — RT USA



There was recent talk of dropping the program but I guess too much has been invested already. Besides RT is reporting this can throw some doubt. But F35 has been dogged with problems but countries are ordering this platform.


----------



## Windjammer



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## MastanKhan

Meejee said:


> Thought this was related to the Falcons, so posting here
> 
> Pentagon’s F-35 stealth jet can’t win dogfight – report — RT USA




Hi,

That is not the big deal---. I talked about it years ago that the latest u s air superiority fighter will be doing BVR launches---shoot and scoot---the merge will be a thing of the past and would be avoided at all cost---there was a lots of sarcasm on the board----.

The U S knows that its BVR has a much higher kill ratio at longer distances than the enemy's missiles. Then its electronic counter measures are far superior than anybody else.

Some say that YOU CAN SEE THE F22 BUT YOUR AIRCRAFT IS BLIND TO ITS PRESENSE----RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES---BUT BLIND TO YOUR ELECTRONICS PACKAGE.

I would say the same is true for the F35---. So---your only chance is your gun-----.

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## Meejee

Owais said:


> View attachment 49035


What %age of time is spent in CCS on BVR training.


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## New World

DESERT FIGHTER said:


>


what is placed near air inlet??


----------



## Donatello

New World said:


> what is placed near air inlet??



Sniper XR pod is mounted on the right of the inlet
and LITENING pod on the left.


Interesting that they are using both the pods at the same time.


----------



## razgriz19

Donatello said:


> Sniper XR pod is mounted on the right of the inlet
> and LITENING pod on the left.
> 
> 
> Interesting that they are using both the pods at the same time.



what's the advantage of the one over the other?


----------



## fatman17

Meejee said:


> What %age of time is spent in CCS on BVR training.



We will never know


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## New World

any news for more F-16s??


----------



## DANGER-ZONE

Donatello said:


> Sniper XR pod is mounted on the right of the inlet
> and *LITENING pod on the left*.
> Interesting that they are using both the pods at the same time.



That is AN/AAQ-13 LANTIRN navigation pod with SNIPER targeting POD.
Commonly it is used with LANTIRN AN/AAQ-14 targeting pod and the combo is called *Low Altitude Navigation and Targeting Infrared for Night*, or LANTIRN Targeting System, but nowdays its used with SNIPER pod as well.


----------



## Imran Khan

New World said:


> any news for more F-16s??


why for scrap yards?


----------



## Windjammer

Imran Khan said:


> why for scrap yards?



I don't think so. 

*US latest F-35 stealth jet is beaten in dogfight by F-16 from 1970s | Daily Mail Online*

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## New World

Imran Khan said:


> why for scrap yards?


because you have full base of it.. and new property will cost 500% compare to your current base..


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## Imran Khan

New World said:


> because you have full base of it.. and new property will cost 500% compare to your current base..


this is not an excuse to stay behind the world 35 years .



Windjammer said:


> I don't think so.
> 
> *US latest F-35 stealth jet is beaten in dogfight by F-16 from 1970s | Daily Mail Online*


whom dogfight these days boss?its elecrital warfare and BVR era


----------



## New World

Imran Khan said:


> this is not an excuse to stay behind the world 35 years .


Sir ji that 35 year old jet is still one of the world's best fighter jet..


----------



## [Bregs]

New World said:


> Sir ji that 35 year old jet is still one of the world's best fighter jet..




No doubt this is one of the most successful fighter jet used in most number of air forces around world and kept on evolving for so many decades


----------



## mingle

F 35 is very similar like F 104 short wing bigger fuselage so not too much lift in wings .the critic called it FÄT Turkey .there is No chance that this plane is a good dog fighter .Rest the arguments about there will be no dogfights every thing will be dealt by BVR missles is old since Veitnam era F 4 phantums R big examples without guns then what happened with them is history .



[Bregs] said:


> No doubt this is one of the most successful fighter jet used in most number of air forces around world and kept on evolving for so many decades


U will see all great planes R sleeks and beautiful by design and look.

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## Windjammer

Imran Khan said:


> this is not an excuse to stay behind the world 35 years .
> 
> 
> whom dogfight these days boss?its elecrital warfare and BVR era



Sir Ji, when countries like India and Pakistan share common border with very little flying time, you can be sure, there will always be dogfights besides there must be a reason why all these companies are competing to build and field the most manoeuvrable fighter and the need to test them against each other.

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## fatman17

Just some nice pics


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## fatman17

2nd from right AC retd Kaiser Tufail


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## fatman17

Standing 2nd from right AC retd Kaiser Tufail


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## nomi007

GREECE offer its
F-16 C/D models to Bulgaria

Pakistan have only 18 block52 which are not enough 
we also need to try for Greece f-16s

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## mingle

nomi007 said:


> GREECE offer its
> F-16 C/D models to Bulgaria
> 
> Pakistan have only 18 block52 which are not enough
> we also need to try for Greece f-16s


Nomi this will not happen US will try to sell us new ones U will see .


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## New World

nomi007 said:


> GREECE offer its
> F-16 C/D models to Bulgaria
> 
> Pakistan have only 18 block52 which are not enough
> we also need to try for Greece f-16s


That is good idea as greece is trapped in debt and they want to sell sub as well..

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## fatman17

2000 hours for Wg C Ghazanfar


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> 2000 hours for Wg C Ghazanfar


No sir, that's Group Captain Waqas Sulherey, presently serving as air attaché in Pakistan Embassy Washington. Here he's standing on the right during 2002 hostilities with India.

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## airmarshal

Why doesnt PAF take its newer F-16s to exercises and always the older ones? Any reason for this?


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## Imran Khan

airmarshal said:


> Why doesnt PAF take its newer F-16s to exercises and always the older ones? Any reason for this?


becasue f-16 block 15 are the best ever made dog fighter and maneuverable F-16


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## denel

nomi007 said:


> GREECE offer its
> F-16 C/D models to Bulgaria
> 
> Pakistan have only 18 block52 which are not enough
> we also need to try for Greece f-16s


Doubt that will ever happen. Trust me, i have been to greece many times. You see so many of your country men who are stranded there since the 70s' in Athens. Greeks have not forgotten Pakistan's support of Turkey during the cyprus invasion.


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## New World

denel said:


> Doubt that will ever happen. Trust me, i have been to greece many times. You see so many of your country men who are stranded there since the 70s' in Athens. Greeks have not forgotten Pakistan's support of Turkey during the cyprus invasion.


they need money to save themselves... and by the way after 2000 Turkey has largely reduces her hostility toward Greece


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## denel

New World said:


> they need money to save themselves... and by the way after 2000 Turkey has largely reduces her hostility toward Greece


lets see desperate times for greece.


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## Donatello

denel said:


> Doubt that will ever happen. Trust me, i have been to greece many times. You see so many of your country men who are stranded there since the 70s' in Athens. Greeks have not forgotten Pakistan's support of Turkey during the cyprus invasion.



I think there are plenty of surplus F-16s that will be up for grabs as European Airforces deal with budget cuts and lean sizing....however, the question is how many of them are worthy of another 15 years of service minimum? Because 15 years is what PAF will be looking at......not to mention Congressional approvals from USA and then purchasing the relevant refit kits along with ammunition and spares.


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## truthseeker2010

fatman17 said:


> Standing 2nd from right AC retd Kaiser Tufail



the one standing on the 1st left is also looking like his brother(by the looks of it)


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## fatman17

Fact and Truth

Friday, May 21, 2010

Rah-e-Nijat and PAF’s new F-16 (A reply of Indian Propaganda)

S M Hali

Operation Rah-e-Nijat (path to deliverance), commonly described as the “Mother of all Battles”, commenced over the weekend, with PAF jet fighters attacking caves, tunnels, training camps, ammunition dumps and hideouts used by the militants; thus softening the targets in South Waziristan, enabling the army to advance and secure the area. The army started the campaign with 28,000 troops entering South Waziristan against the miscreants on October 17, from three directions - Razmak in the north, Jandola in the east and Shakai in the west, converging towards the Taliban strongholds of Makeen, Spinkai, Raghzai and Tiarza. A day before the launch of the operation, the military high command briefed the government and leaders of various political parties, who unanimously gave the go-ahead to launch Operation Rah-e-Nijat. The action has been timed before the winter since the cold weather causes snow to block roads, but with the advent of winter, the cold weather would force Taliban forces from their hideouts. Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP), led by their new leader Hakimullah Mehsud, are estimated to be between 10,000-20,000 along with 500-5,000 Uzbek supporters. The commencement of the massive operation was imminent in view of the fresh wave of terror in the country, which had taken a toll of more than a 100 lives from Kohat to Peshawar and Rawalpindi to Lahore.

On the eve of the operation, a positive development occurred on October 14, when the US unveiled the first batch of the latest 18 F-16 C/D Block-52 combat fighter aircraft being produced for Pakistan, to commence delivery by December this year and complete the process by late 2010. Chief of Air Staff of Pakistan Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, accepted the first advanced F-16 Block 52 aircraft on behalf of Pakistan at a solemn ceremony, which brings some cheer in Pakistan as the new F-16s are expected to play a major role in the raging war against terror. Speaking on the occasion, John Larson, vice president of F-16 programmes for Lockheed Martin, describing the fresh delivery said that it is the latest configuration of the best 4th generation multirole fighter available in the world today. The 18 aircrafts order, which includes 12 F-16Cs and six F-16Ds, was scaled down from the original 32, due to paucity of funds. 

Pakistan Air Force has had a chequered history as far as the F-16s are concerned. At the height of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, when Pakistan was a “frontline state”, it was offered by the US President Jimmy Carter, $325 million and an inferior fighter aircraft from F-20, F-5E/F or A-10 aircraft. Then President Zia rejected this as “peanuts,” while the PAF stuck to its guns in demanding the F-16s. Eventually the new Republican administration of Ronald Reagan approved the sale of F-16s to Pakistan, and in 1981 an agreement was made to supply Forty (28 F-16A and 12 F-16B) to PAF, which were launched into action directly on receipt to deter the Soviet and Afghan Air Force from intruding into Pakistani airspace. Resultantly, PAF scored 10 confirmed kills in the period, four Su-22 bombers, three air transport aircraft (two An-26s and one An-24), and one Soviet Su-25 bomber. Most of these kills were achieved using the AIM-9L Sidewinder. PAF lost one F-16 during the period. In December 1988, Pakistan ordered 11 additional F-16A/B Block 15 OCU (Operational Capability Upgrade) aircraft (6 Alpha and 5 Bravo models) as attrition replacements, which were fully paid for. In September 1989, Pakistan decided to acquire 60 more F-16A/B’s. 

The Pressler Amendment was passed in 1985 with the intention of ensuring that the US aid would not be used to further Pakistan’s nuclear ambitions. Since the US needed Pakistan in its war against the Soviet, subsequent US administrations provided waiver to Pakistan. However, in 1990, after the withdrawal of Soviet troops from Afghanistan, the US decided to invoke the Pressler Amendment. Although 28 of Pakistan’s fresh order of 71 F-16s were ready and paid for, an embargo was placed on their supply and the provision of spare parts for the existing fleet. PAF was in a bind and remained so till the invasion of Afghanistan by the US-led allied forces in 2001. Pakistan again became a frontline state and close ally in the War on Terror. On March 25, 2005 the US government agreed to Pakistan’s request to sell new F-16s. As a measure of goodwill, the US decided to release the 28 embargoed F-16s and on September 30, 2006 the contract was signed between the Pakistani and US government for the acquisition of 18 new F-16C/D block 52 aircraft and an option for another 18 more. It was also agreed to upgrade the embargoed aircraft - and the remaining F-16A/B fleet - to MLU (mid-life upgrade) standards.

The F-16C (single seat) and D (dual seat)-Block 50/52 F-16 aircraft are equipped with improved GPS/INS, and the aircraft can carry a further batch of advanced missiles: the AGM-88 HARM, JDAM, JSOW and WCMD. Block 52 aircraft are powered by the F100-PW-229 ‘Power Plant’. Currently, Pakistani F-16s typically carry two all-aspect AIM-9L Sidewinders on the wing tip rails along with a pair of AIM-9P-4’s on the outermost underwing racks, while the Matra Magic 2 can be carried as well. In the strike role, they can deliver Paveway laser-guided bombs. Pakistani F-16s are also capable of firing the French AS-30 laser guided missiles, while PAF F-16s are equipped with French-built Thompson-CSF ATLIS laser designation pods. The ALQ-131 pod is carried as ECM protection. Lockheed Martin had confirmed the supply of Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods (ATP) for PAF F-16s.

Block 52 has the additional support of conformal fuel tanks (CFTs), dorsal spine compartment, APG-68 (V9) radar, and JHMCS helmet. The easily removable CFTs are mounted above the wing, on both sides of the fuselage. They provide an additional 2,045 litres of fuel for increased range or time on station and free up underwing hardpoints for weapons. Let us hope and pray the additional weapons enable the armed forces to defeat terrorism.

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## fatman17

Griffins


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## fatman17

Top guns of the Afghan Campaign


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## Rahil khan

Viper With Original Vital Signs. Good old days.

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## fatman17

AIM9L and 9M respectively

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## fatman17

SU22 kill

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## fatman17

Sniper pod

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## Blue Marlin

TOPGUN said:


> We should try to get blk 52's going back to the stone age is not gona help us at all we are trying to come out of that era.


the block 52's are restricted. because they contain sensitive tech. thats why there (block 52's) are based on a modern airbase only at jacobabad. and with lockheed employees maintaining the f16.no chinese officers are allowed on the base. and also the block 52 are more expensive.


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## Windjammer



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## Blue Marlin

Windjammer said:


>


i am not trying to offend you . the point i am trying to makeup is that the US was very reluctant to sell the block 52's. and when it did it arrive it came with a lot of strings. such as PAF need permission from the US to use the block 52's abroad and especially in china. and any sealed parts have to be shipped to the US for maintenance. what i am say is a fact. that i read from a thread from where a PAF pilot talked about it. look it up. you'd be surprised.

i would defiantly recommend a mirage styled approach. by buying as many f16's as possible regardless of capability and upgrade them to a high standard.


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## IrbiS

blue marlin said:


> i am not trying to offend you . the point i am trying to makeup is that the US was very reluctant to sell the block 52's. and when it did it arrive it came with a lot of strings. such as PAF need permission from the US to use the block 52's abroad and especially in china. and any sealed parts have to be shipped to the US for maintenance. what i am say is a fact. that i read from a thread from where a PAF pilot talked about it. look it up. you'd be surprised.
> 
> i would defiantly recommend a mirage styled approach. by buying as many f16's as possible regardless of capability and upgrade them to a high standard.




Welcome aboard sir. And just take things easy for start


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## Windjammer

blue marlin said:


> i am not trying to offend you . the point i am trying to makeup is that the US was very reluctant to sell the block 52's. and when it did it arrive it came with a lot of strings. such as PAF need permission from the US to use the block 52's abroad and especially in china. and any sealed parts have to be shipped to the US for maintenance. what i am say is a fact. that i read from a thread from where a PAF pilot talked about it. look it up. you'd be surprised.
> 
> i would defiantly recommend a mirage styled approach. by buying as many f16's as possible regardless of capability and upgrade them to a high standard.


Shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet.
For example, PAF Block-52s come equipped with CFTs.... they are not needed to fly within the country, rather for long range operations beyond Pakistan's borders. !!!

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## Blue Marlin

Windjammer said:


> Shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet.
> For example, PAF Block-52s come equipped with CFTs.... they are not needed to fly within the country, rather for long range operations beyond Pakistan's borders. !!!


yes i know they came with cat's all 18 came with them. the point i am stressing out to you is that the block 52 is significantly more advanced the the other f16 in the inventory of PAF. the initial US response to PAF request for 18 block52 was no due to the possibilities of china eventually reverse engineering the advanced tech. so PAF came with the idea of base the advanced f16's exclusively at jacobabad and no Chinese official is allowed on the base. 
and also to prove my point. when Turkey was building their own f16 atTAI some part came from the US and were sealed. then one f16 crashed killing the pilot and upon inspection one of the sealed part was cracked open and upon inspection they found it contained a bug. that some thing you can check in the inter net and is true. To be honest i would prefer the FC-20 as it comes with no string's and is now available for export due to Russia allowing china to export it's AL-31FN engine built for the J-10B to Pakistan Asia and latin america.



IrbiS said:


> Welcome aboard sir. And just take things easy for start


thanks



Windjammer said:


> Shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet.
> For example, PAF Block-52s come equipped with CFTs.... they are not needed to fly within the country, rather for long range operations beyond Pakistan's borders. !!!


also to add to the last point i know the f16 can cross the border with or without the CFT'S

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## Windjammer

blue marlin said:


> yes i know they came with cat's all 18 came with them. the point i am stressing out to you is that the block 52 is significantly more advanced the the other f16 in the inventory of PAF. the initial US response to PAF request for 18 block52 was no due to the possibilities of china eventually reverse engineering the advanced tech. so PAF came with the idea of base the advanced f16's exclusively at jacobabad and no Chinese official is allowed on the base.
> and also to prove my point. when Turkey was building their own f16 atTAI some part came from the US and were sealed. then one f16 crashed killing the pilot and upon inspection one of the sealed part was cracked open and upon inspection they found it contained a bug. that some thing you can check in the inter net and is true. To be honest i would prefer the FC-20 as it comes with no string's and is now available for export due to Russia allowing china to export it's AL-31FN engine built for the J-10B to Pakistan Asia and latin america.


All the above was mentioned in the alleged interview of a PAF pilot, although there's no doubt that the Americans jealously guard the cutting edge technology incorporated in the Block-52s, the thing about so called ''kill switch'' is just a myth. If that was the case, who would invest billions in a system that may be beyond owners control. And as for Jacobabad, you make it sound as if it's beyond Pakistan's jurisdiction. The Block-52 in which the air chief flew on 23rd March didn't exactly fly out of Jacobabad. 


> also to add to the last point i know the f16 can cross the border with or without the CFT'S


I'm sure, even the Mashaq can cross the border but how deep can it go and return with how much time on station.

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## Blue Marlin

Windjammer said:


> All the above was mentioned in the alleged interview of a PAF pilot, although there's no doubt that the Americans jealously guard the cutting edge technology incorporated in the Block-52s, the thing about so called ''kill switch'' is just a myth. If that was the case, who would invest billions in a system that may be beyond owners control. And as for Jacobabad, you make it sound as if it's beyond Pakistan's jurisdiction. The Block-52 in which the air chief flew on 23rd March didn't exactly fly out of Jacobabad.
> 
> I'm sure, even the Mashaq can cross the border but how deep can it go and return with how much time on station.


enough to go and lay waste to thrombay as envisioned by president ZIA who choose the F16 just for that specific role. if not it would have been f5's in PAF, but they really wanted f16's and the US sold it to them as the US needed Pakistan to help rebel the soviets in Afghanistan


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## raazh

blue marlin said:


> such as PAF need permission from the US to use the block 52's abroad and especially in china. and any sealed parts have to be shipped to the US for maintenance.



No surprise there; that's how all BRANDED stuff is sold. OEM tries to Protect reverse engineering efforts (Chinese or any other third party inspection) and warranty claim goes void if you open sealed parts.


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## TOPGUN

blue marlin said:


> the block 52's are restricted. because they contain sensitive tech. thats why there (block 52's) are based on a modern airbase only at jacobabad. and with lockheed employees maintaining the f16.no chinese officers are allowed on the base. and also the block 52 are more expensive.


 
You are not telling me anything new nor hidden that I and we don't know thanks...


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## Blue Marlin

TOPGUN said:


> You are not telling me anything new nor hidden that I and we don't know thanks...


fair enough. nobody has mentioned it so i guess i may as well say to bring some understanding. p.s. i don't like the block 52's i would say co produce the fc-20 as it way better and much easier to buy and theres no strings. the US is to controlling.



raazh said:


> No surprise there; that's how all BRANDED stuff is sold. OEM tries to Protect reverse engineering efforts (Chinese or any other third party inspection) and warranty claim goes void if you open sealed parts.


in this case if opened the contract is breached and there will be repercussions. wont be surprised if there are fitted with oil switches.


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## ACE OF THE AIR

blue marlin said:


> fair enough. nobody has mentioned it so i guess i may as well say to bring some understanding. p.s. i don't like the block 52's i would say co produce the fc-20 as it way better and much easier to buy and theres no strings. the US is to controlling.



What you are saying now has been going on over for the last 6-7yrs... Please do yourself a favor of not getting insulted by using the search feature of this site...


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## raazh

blue marlin said:


> in this case if opened the contract is breached and there will be repercussions. wont be surprised if there are fitted with oil switches.



The repercussion, as is with all sophisticated equipment, is that you loose all after sale support of the OEM. This is all normal mode of business. If I sell you a Radar and you attach a non-standardized / non recommended power supply with it and for some reason it malfunctions; would you expect me to honor any warranty claims for that Radar? F16 or for that matter all planes are very sophisticated and complex machines. Tinkering without OEM permission or supervision would definitely make all or any warranty claim void.

What Oil switch??


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## Donatello

Windjammer said:


> Shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet.
> For example, PAF Block-52s come equipped with CFTs.... they are not needed to fly within the country, rather for long range operations beyond Pakistan's borders. !!!



I believe not the entire fleet of 76 or so F-16s is based at Shahbaz....some are still in Sargodha?


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## Lightning Soul

Donatello said:


> I believe not the entire fleet of 76 or so F-16s is based at Shahbaz....some are still in Sargodha?


Sargodha has some MLUed F-16s from CCS Squadron


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## Windjammer

Donatello said:


> I believe not the entire fleet of 76 or so F-16s is based at Shahbaz....some are still in Sargodha?





Lightning Soul said:


> Sargodha has some MLUed F-16s from CCS Squadron


The two original F-16, 9 and 11 units are based in Sargodha with possibly No 19 also joining them.


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## fatman17

Windjammer said:


> The two original F-16, 9 and 11 units are based in Sargodha with possibly No 19 also joining them.



Correct

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## umair86

PAF should look into SABR upgrade to the F-16 fleet in the near future cutting edge tech of the F-16 will be obsolete in the coming 5 years or so.


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## Trailer23

PAF has 04 Ilyushin Il-78 MRTT (Multi-Role Tanker Transport).

Are they equipped to refuel our F-16's?


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## Kompromat

umair86 said:


> PAF should look into SABR upgrade to the F-16 fleet in the near future *cutting edge tech of the F-16 will be obsolete in the coming 5 years or so.*



Thanks for "useful" analysis.

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## Imran Khan

Trailer23 said:


> PAF has 04 Ilyushin Il-78 MRTT (Multi-Role Tanker Transport).
> 
> Are they equipped to refuel our F-16's?


no they cant refuel current pakistani f-16s .unless PAF buy Refueling Probe fitted CFTs for F-16


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## Trailer23

And i'm guessing the *Boeing KC-30* is wayyy out of _our_ budget.

The Aussies have the Boeing KMD-11CF.
http://www.ausairpower.net/PDF-A/AAR-ADF-Issues.pdf


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## Blue Marlin

Trailer23 said:


> PAF has 04 Ilyushin Il-78 MRTT (Multi-Role Tanker Transport).
> 
> Are they equipped to refuel our F-16's?


no only mirage and jf17


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## nomi007



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## IrbiS



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## fatman17

Trailer23 said:


> PAF has 04 Ilyushin Il-78 MRTT (Multi-Role Tanker Transport).
> 
> Are they equipped to refuel our F-16's?



Nope

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is not the big deal---. I talked about it years ago that the latest u s air superiority fighter will be doing BVR launches---shoot and scoot---the merge will be a thing of the past and would be avoided at all cost---there was a lots of sarcasm on the board----.
> 
> The U S knows that its BVR has a much higher kill ratio at longer distances than the enemy's missiles. Then its electronic counter measures are far superior than anybody else.
> 
> Some say that YOU CAN SEE THE F22 BUT YOUR AIRCRAFT IS BLIND TO ITS PRESENSE----RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR EYES---BUT BLIND TO YOUR ELECTRONICS PACKAGE.
> 
> I would say the same is true for the F35---. So---your only chance is your gun-----.



not irritating you & others here , but there's an off-topic question that comes often in mind w.r.t. recent indian announcement of getting rafael jets :-

1- Does P.a.f. actually realize the strategic need for acquiring an aircraft to counter indian rafaels ?

2- if yes , then which aircrafts (do you think) for P.a.F are available in reality and suitable for the said purpose ?



Windjammer said:


> The two original F-16, 9 and 11 units are based in Sargodha with possibly No 19 also joining them.



the post given below was stated by mr.Oscar :-

"Its fairly transactional, except in this case the relation is more like a person indebted giving it all up. This "giving" it all up is why there is strict security around the Block-52s that Pakistan has and its upgraded MLUs...down to retina scans.
From what I gathered, any attempt to let even an authorized person near the Block-52 triggers off an Alarm that probably has the US Defence Attaché ringing up the PAF and giving them a stern warning followed up by an investigation into the incident. All clearances have US personnel approval in it.

That is NOT to indicate that these aircraft are handicapped in their usage(which they can be against all enemies east or west of Pakistan save the US and its allies) , but a clear sign that whatever these aircraft carry is sophisticated and advanced enough to warrant it from falling into Chinese hands to be xerox'd."

jammer bro., does your opinion or information on the issue conform to it ?

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## fatman17

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> not irritating you & others here , but there's an off-topic question that comes often in mind w.r.t. recent indian announcement of getting rafael jets :-
> 
> 1- Does P.a.f. actually realize the strategic need for acquiring an aircraft to counter indian rafaels ?
> 
> 2- if yes , then which aircrafts (do you think) for P.a.F are available in reality and suitable for the said purpose ?
> 
> 
> 
> the post given below was stated by mr.Oscar :-
> 
> "Its fairly transactional, except in this case the relation is more like a person indebted giving it all up. This "giving" it all up is why there is strict security around the Block-52s that Pakistan has and its upgraded MLUs...down to retina scans.
> From what I gathered, any attempt to let even an authorized person near the Block-52 triggers off an Alarm that probably has the US Defence Attaché ringing up the PAF and giving them a stern warning followed up by an investigation into the incident. All clearances have US personnel approval in it.
> 
> That is NOT to indicate that these aircraft are handicapped in their usage(which they can be against all enemies east or west of Pakistan save the US and its allies) , but a clear sign that whatever these aircraft carry is sophisticated and advanced enough to warrant it from falling into Chinese hands to be xerox'd."
> 
> jammer bro., does your opinion or information on the issue conform to it ?



Very imaginative sir


----------



## MastanKhan

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> not irritating you & others here , but there's an off-topic question that comes often in mind w.r.t. recent indian announcement of getting rafael jets :-
> 
> 1- Does P.a.f. actually realize the strategic need for acquiring an aircraft to counter indian rafaels ?
> 
> 2- if yes , then which aircrafts (do you think) for P.a.F are available in reality and suitable for the said purpose ?
> 
> 
> 
> the post given below was stated by mr.Oscar :-
> 
> "Its fairly transactional, except in this case the relation is more like a person indebted giving it all up. This "giving" it all up is why there is strict security around the Block-52s that Pakistan has and its upgraded MLUs...down to retina scans.
> From what I gathered, any attempt to let even an authorized person near the Block-52 triggers off an Alarm that probably has the US Defence Attaché ringing up the PAF and giving them a stern warning followed up by an investigation into the incident. All clearances have US personnel approval in it. ?



Hi,

Thanks for your post-----absolutely Paf is conscious of the fact and is ready to make the move---but it is waiting for the Indians to sign the dotted line---they have not signed the contract yet.

Once the Indians make the commitment then Paf would be open to other procurements---but they don't want to show their hand at this time.

As for security around the F16----the reason is obvious----it has some really sophisticated technology and equipment----for that reason---the U S does not want no one close to it----.

That security or similar security measures should be observed with the JF 17's and the surveillance aircraft as well.


----------



## Windjammer

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> not irritating you & others here , but there's an off-topic question that comes often in mind w.r.t. recent indian announcement of getting rafael jets :-
> 
> 1- Does P.a.f. actually realize the strategic need for acquiring an aircraft to counter indian rafaels ?
> 
> 2- if yes , then which aircrafts (do you think) for P.a.F are available in reality and suitable for the said purpose ?
> 
> 
> 
> the post given below was stated by mr.Oscar :-
> 
> "Its fairly transactional, except in this case the relation is more like a person indebted giving it all up. This "giving" it all up is why there is strict security around the Block-52s that Pakistan has and its upgraded MLUs...down to retina scans.
> From what I gathered, any attempt to let even an authorized person near the Block-52 triggers off an Alarm that probably has the US Defence Attaché ringing up the PAF and giving them a stern warning followed up by an investigation into the incident. All clearances have US personnel approval in it.
> 
> That is NOT to indicate that these aircraft are handicapped in their usage(which they can be against all enemies east or west of Pakistan save the US and its allies) , but a clear sign that whatever these aircraft carry is sophisticated and advanced enough to warrant it from falling into Chinese hands to be xerox'd."
> 
> jammer bro., does your opinion or information on the issue conform to it ?



From what i have learned from some reliable sources, it's not quite as bad as that. No doubt, the Block-52s represent cutting edge technology and Americans jealously guard it to prevent it falling into other hands, but this is not exclusive with PAF. After their Lavi dealings, the Americans allegedly also keep an eye on Israeli F-16s and all this is nothing compared to the stringent measures applied on UAEAF Block-60s. Some American commanders have unreservedly acknowledged and praised the package PAF selected for it's Block-52s.... something that's decisively proving during operations against militants.

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## Jango

Windjammer said:


> all this is nothing compared to the stringent measures applied on UAEAF Block-60s.



These jets aren't even based in the UAE for most of the year! :p

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## Windjammer

Jango said:


> These jets aren't even based in the UAE for most of the year! :p


That's only half the story, once Americans even objected for them being parked close to other exhibits.

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## fatman17

More Sniper ATPs Ordered for Pakistan Air Force F-16s

Posted on 14 July, 2015



Pakistan Air Force F-16B Fighting Falcon 85610 from 9 Squadron ‘Griffins’ at PAF Base Mushaf on February 18, 2007. 

Lockheed Martin announced today that it has gained additional Sniper ATP orders for the PAF F-16 fleet. AFD-Alan Warnes

LOCKHEED MARTIN has received a follow-on foreign military sales contract to produce and upgrade Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods (ATPs) for the Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF’s) F-16 fleet. The contract, announced by the company today, July 14, includes the production of 15 Sniper ATPs and upgrades to the PAF’s 22 existing Sniper ATPs.

To meet the PAF’s urgent operational need, pod deliveries will begin in late 2015. Upgrades, which will increase compatibility with the aircraft and enable enhanced features, will also begin in late 2015.

“Sniper ATP has supported the Pakistan Air Force’s mission since 2010,” said Rich Lovette, Sniper international programme director at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. “Additional Sniper ATPs and upgrades will give the Pakistan Air Force a more robust precision targeting capability to support the nation’s security requirements.”

Sniper ATP provides pilots high-resolution imagery for precision targeting, surveillance and reconnaissance missions. Sniper ATP detects, identifies, automatically tracks and laser designates small tactical targets at long ranges. It also supports employment of all laser and GPS-guided weapons against multiple fixed and moving targets. Sniper ATP is interoperable across multiple platforms, including US Air Force and multi-national F-15, F-16, F-18, A-10, B-1 and B-52 aircraft. AFD-Dave Allport

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## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> More Sniper ATPs Ordered for Pakistan Air Force F-16s
> 
> Posted on 14 July, 2015
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Air Force F-16B Fighting Falcon 85610 from 9 Squadron ‘Griffins’ at PAF Base Mushaf on February 18, 2007.
> 
> Lockheed Martin announced today that it has gained additional Sniper ATP orders for the PAF F-16 fleet. AFD-Alan Warnes
> 
> LOCKHEED MARTIN has received a follow-on foreign military sales contract to produce and upgrade Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods (ATPs) for the Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF’s) F-16 fleet. The contract, announced by the company today, July 14, includes the production of 15 Sniper ATPs and upgrades to the PAF’s 22 existing Sniper ATPs.
> 
> To meet the PAF’s urgent operational need, pod deliveries will begin in late 2015. Upgrades, which will increase compatibility with the aircraft and enable enhanced features, will also begin in late 2015.
> 
> “Sniper ATP has supported the Pakistan Air Force’s mission since 2010,” said Rich Lovette, Sniper international programme director at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. “Additional Sniper ATPs and upgrades will give the Pakistan Air Force a more robust precision targeting capability to support the nation’s security requirements.”
> 
> Sniper ATP provides pilots high-resolution imagery for precision targeting, surveillance and reconnaissance missions. Sniper ATP detects, identifies, automatically tracks and laser designates small tactical targets at long ranges. It also supports employment of all laser and GPS-guided weapons against multiple fixed and moving targets. Sniper ATP is interoperable across multiple platforms, including US Air Force and multi-national F-15, F-16, F-18, A-10, B-1 and B-52 aircraft. AFD-Dave Allport



They finally realized that Atlis-II are outdated now


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## fatman17

IrbiS said:


> They finally realized that Atlis-II are outdated now



Altis was inducted in the early 80s so it has passed it's usefulness. Sniper pods were only available to us after 2005.


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## Windjammer

JHMCS seems a standard feature with PAF F-16 community.

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## black-hawk_101

Windjammer said:


> JHMCS seems a standard feature with PAF F-16 community.


Soon 14 used F-16s more to arrive and also possible vaudevillian 21 F-16s too.

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## nomi007

Pakistan will buy 15 more Sniper targeting pods( ANAAQ-33 Sniper XR) from Lockheed Martin and upgrade 22 of its existing pods to new standards.
Lockheed Martin will deliver the new pods to Pakistan later this year due to an urgent operational requirement.





Pakistan will buy 15 more Sniper targeting pods( ANAAQ-33 Sniper XR) from Lockheed Martin and upgrade 22 of its existing pods to new standards.
Lockheed Martin will deliver the new pods to Pakistan later this year due to an urgent operational requirement.

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## untitled

black-hawk_101 said:


> ...........also possible *vaudevillian* 21 F-16s too.

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## IrbiS

fatman17 said:


> Altis was inducted in the early 80s so it has passed it's usefulness. Sniper pods were only available to us after 2005.



True. They were optimistic about ATLIS even after trying and combat testing Sniper. Thank GOD they timely realized and made an order while we could. This ACM is busting many PAF myths


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## wiqi21

*Pakistan Air Force has sent a follow-on foreign military sale contract to Lockheed Martin to produce and upgrade Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods (ATP) for its F-16 fleet.*

The contract includes the upgrade of Pakistan’s existing 22 Sniper ATPs as well as the production of 15 new Sniper ATPs.

Delivery will begin late in 2015 to satisfy Pakistan’s urgent operational needs. Upgrades will also begin in late 2015 and they will increase compatibility with the aircraft and enable enhanced features.

“Sniper ATP has supported the Pakistan Air Force’s mission since 2010,” said Rich Lovette, Sniper international programme director at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. “Additional Sniper ATPs and upgrades will give the Pakistan Air Force a more robust precision targetting capability to support the nation’s security requirements.”

Sniper ATP enables pilots to have high-resolution imagery for precision targetting, surveillance and reconnaissance missions. It also detects, identifies, automatically tracks and laser designates small tactical targets at long ranges. Apart from that, it also enables the use of all laser and GPS-guided weapons against various fixed and moving targets.

Further, Sniper ATP can be operated on multiple platforms, including US Air Force and multi-national F-15, F-16, F-18, A-10, B-1 and B-52 aircraft.

_This article originally appeared on Market Watch_

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## ali_raza

only the pods


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## Arsalan

wiqi21 said:


> *Pakistan Air Force has sent a follow-on foreign military sale contract to Lockheed Martin to produce and upgrade Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods (ATP) for its F-16 fleet.*
> 
> The contract includes the upgrade of Pakistan’s existing 22 Sniper ATPs as well as the production of 15 new Sniper ATPs.
> 
> Delivery will begin late in 2015 to satisfy Pakistan’s urgent operational needs. Upgrades will also begin in late 2015 and they will increase compatibility with the aircraft and enable enhanced features.
> 
> “Sniper ATP has supported the Pakistan Air Force’s mission since 2010,” said Rich Lovette, Sniper international programme director at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control. “Additional Sniper ATPs and upgrades will give the Pakistan Air Force a more robust precision targetting capability to support the nation’s security requirements.”
> 
> Sniper ATP enables pilots to have high-resolution imagery for precision targetting, surveillance and reconnaissance missions. It also detects, identifies, automatically tracks and laser designates small tactical targets at long ranges. Apart from that, it also enables the use of all laser and GPS-guided weapons against various fixed and moving targets.
> 
> Further, Sniper ATP can be operated on multiple platforms, including US Air Force and multi-national F-15, F-16, F-18, A-10, B-1 and B-52 aircraft.
> 
> _This article originally appeared on Market Watch_


Oh come on, there is no need for posting threads with such sensational headings, specially when the matter is already being discussed, LM to upgrade PAD F-16, Bull5hit!! We are getting the sniper PODs upgraded and buying a few more new ones that is it. 
It is not like they are upgrading our fleet as the thread title suggest.

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## fatman17

black-hawk_101 said:


> Soon 14 used F-16s more to arrive and also possible vaudevillian 21 F-16s too.



Pl elaborate


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## fatman17

Lockheed to manufacture and upgrade Sniper ATP for Pakistan’s F-16 fleet

15 July 2015

Lockheed Martin has secured a follow-on foreign military sale contract to manufacture and upgrade Sniper advanced targeting pods (ATP) for the Pakistan Air Force's F-16 fleet.
Under the contract, the company will produce 15 Sniper ATPs and upgrade the Pakistan Air Force's existing 22 Sniper ATPs.
The upgrades will increase compatibility with the aircraft and enable enhanced features.
Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control Sniper international programme director Rich Lovette said: "Sniper ATP has supported the Pakistan Air Force's mission since 2010.
"Additional Sniper ATPs and upgrades will give the Pakistan Air Force a more robust precision targeting capability to support the nation's security requirements."
The delivery of pods is expected to start later this year, while the upgrades are also scheduled to start at the same time.
"Under the contract, Lockheed Martin will produce 15 Sniper ATPs and upgrade the Pakistan Air Force's existing 22 Sniper ATPs."
The Sniper ATP has been designed to provide pilots with high-resolution imagery for precision targeting and non-traditional intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance missions.
Also offered by the solution is positive target identification, autonomous tracking, coordinate generation, precise weapons guidance and non-traditional intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (NTISR) in all weather conditions.
Moreover, it will support employment of laser- and GPS-guided weapons against multiple fixed and moving targets.
The solution is interoperable across multiple platforms, including the US Air Force and multi-national F-15, F-16, F-18, A-10, B-1 and B-52 aircraft.
In May, Lockheed was selected by the Romanian Air Force (RoAF) and the Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF) to deliver its Sniper ATP for their F-16 fleets.
Image: The Pakistan Air Force's F-16D Block 52+ 'Fighting Falcon' during testing in the US. Photo: courtesy of United States Air Force.


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## tahir195

when i first open this thread i wish i would read that "Lockheed martin is upgrading our all F-16 to Block 50/52 standard"


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## FunkyGen

tahir195 said:


> when i first open this thread i wish i would read that "Lockheed martin is upgrading our all F-16 to Block 50/52 standard"


many of them have recieved MLUs, you need to read into that and do thank the turrks...


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## tahir195

FunkyGen said:


> many of them have recieved MLUs, you need to read into that and do thank the turrks...


dose MLU means that they are upgraded to block 50/52 standard


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## truthseeker2010

tahir195 said:


> dose MLU means that they are upgraded to block 50/52 standard



yes, but i think the mlu cannot carry CFT's, other than that they are comparable to Block 52s


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## tahir195

truthseeker2010 said:


> yes, but i think the mlu cannot carry CFT's, other than that they are comparable to Block 52s


so you are saying that all f-16 of PAF are block 52 standard?


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## truthseeker2010

tahir195 said:


> so you are saying that all f-16 of PAF are block 52 standard?



except 14 that were received from jordan which are block 15ADF variant.


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## Peaceful Civilian

truthseeker2010 said:


> except 14 that were received from jordan which are block 15ADF variant.


I think it will also receive MLU soon.


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## truthseeker2010

Peaceful Civilian said:


> I think it will also receive MLU soon.



i think they wont..... because they don't need to, according to pdf members, just search for discussion on ADF variant on these threads, and you might get answers


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## nomi007

About Sniper ATP.
Sniper ATP (Advanced Targeting Pod) provides pilots high-resolution imagery for precision targeting, surveillance and reconnaissance missions.
Sniper ATP Detects,Identifies, Automatically tracks,Laser designates small tactical targets at long ranges.
It also supports employment of all laser and GPS-guided weapons against multiple fixed and moving targets.


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## tahir195

truthseeker2010 said:


> except 14 that were received from jordan which are block 15ADF variant.


abay need ma hai kia bhai, pta bhi hai kia bol rha hai

61 F-16 hamare block 50/52 ka standard pa hai 

yahi khena cha rhe ho na


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## razgriz19

fatman17 said:


> Pl elaborate



I believe you're talking to the infamous Nishan 101
according to him we might even see F-22s very soon

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## Blue Marlin

razgriz19 said:


> I believe you're talking to the infamous Nishan 101
> according to him we might even see F-22s very soon


one can only dream


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## truthseeker2010

tahir195 said:


> abay need ma hai kia bhai, pta bhi hai kia bol rha hai



did i said something wrong in my previous statement?


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## fatman17

No 9 Sq Griffins


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## fatman17

Sniper pods now available for 37 aircraft


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Sniper pods now available for 37 aircraft


Is it available now or will it be available after we receive 22 more. I think it is later but would be glad to be corrected. Secondly what do the upgrades provide.
Araz


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## IrbiS

araz said:


> Is it available now or will it be available after we receive 22 more. I think it is later but would be glad to be corrected. Secondly what do the upgrades provide.
> Araz



15 more will be procured+22 previous. 37 is enough for now against taliban as you can send whole f-16 fleet loaded with pgm and just 1 equipped with pod to laze 'em all. These babies are already capable of unconventional surveillance, auto target tracking, air to air IRST, target co-ordinates generation for GPS guided munitions i.e. JDAM, SDBs. As pointed out by someone earlier, they might have the capability to down-link live feed to ground station among other improvements

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## fatman17

araz said:


> Is it available now or will it be available after we receive 22 more. I think it is later but would be glad to be corrected. Secondly what do the upgrades provide.
> Araz



Existing pods will be upgraded to the new standard we are getting


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## fatman17

Pl review PAF air war doctrine to get a better understanding of what it's planners are doing.


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## nomi007

Westinghouse AN/APG-68 radar

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## Blue Marlin

is that an aesa radar which are fitted on Pakistan block 52 f16's


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## IrbiS

blue marlin said:


> is that an aesa radar which are fitted on Pakistan block 52 f16's

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## umair86

All PAF F-16s are wquipped with APG-68V9 radars which are mechanically scanned arrays no AESA for Paf F-16s as of yet but Paf should consider the radar upgrade in the coming 5 years to SABR AESA just as Singapore and Taiwan has done.

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## araz

umair86 said:


> All PAF F-16s are wquipped with APG-68V9 radars which are mechanically scanned arrays no AESA for Paf F-16s as of yet but Paf should consider the radar upgrade in the coming 5 years to SABR AESA just as Singapore and Taiwan has done.


As Mirza Ghalib said.
Daikhain kya guzay hai Qatray pay gohar honay Tak.
5 yrs is a long time and with technological advancements proceeding at the rate that they are we don't really know what will remain relevant. if we get more new F16s and can wriggle some AESA off of the USA then perhaps. If uncle SAM is not so graceful and uncle Ching has acquired the know how and is building *comparable systems *at 1/3 or 1/4 the rate* adaptable on the JFT *will we still go for an AESA upgrade on the 16s. Remains to be seen.


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## princefaisal

Pakistan should upgrade its F-16s just like ROK is doing the upgrade of 134 KF-16C/D Block 52 aircraft. They are upgrading their F-16s to include: 150 Modular Mission Computers (MMC 7000AH), 150 Active Electronically Scanned Array Radars (AESA), 150 AN/APX-125 or equivalent Advanced Identification Friend or Foe (AIFF) Systems, 150 LN-260 Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems, 150 Upgraded Radar Warning Receivers (RWR), 150 AN/ALQ-213 EW Management Units, 3 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS) II Group C Helmets, 150 JHMCS II Group A and B, 31 Joint Mission Planning Systems (JMPS), 5 GBU-54 Laser Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM), 5 KMU-57C/B Bomb Tail Kits, 2 GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb Guided Test Vehicles, 8 GBU-39 Small Diameter Bomb Tactical Training Rounds, 2 BRU-61 Small Diameter Bomb Common Carriage Assemblies, 5 MK-82 General Purpose Practice Bombs, 2 Joint Programmable Fuzes, 2 CBU-105 Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser (WCMD) Sensor Fuzed Weapons (SFW), 1 CNU-411C/E, WCMD Container, 2 ATM-65 Maverick Training Missiles, 2 ATM-84 Harpoon Block II Training Missiles, 2 AGM-84 Harpoon Block II Guidance Units, 2 CATM-9X-2 Captive Air Training Missiles, and 1 AIM-9X-2 Guidance Unit.

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## Cool_Soldier

PAF does not have any AESA Radar in its plane. Hope in near future we will get plane with AESA.


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## Thorough Pro

Yes they do, SAB-2000 Erieye and ZDK-03



Cool_Soldier said:


> PAF does not have any AESA Radar in its plane. Hope in near future we will get plane with AESA.


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## Cool_Soldier

Yes you are right....But I meant to say about Fighter planes.


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## black-hawk_101

When PAF getting 14 more F-16s. And also about the chance of getting another 29+ from venuezvella?


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## Shabi1

black-hawk_101 said:


> When PAF getting 14 more F-16s. And also about the chance of getting another 29+ from venuezvella?



Wikipedia shows Venezuelan AF has just 12 F-16A/Bs, I dont think they have been properly maintained. Used F-16s from a EU NATO country looking to downsize seem more likely.

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## black-hawk_101

Shabi1 said:


> Wikipedia shows Venezuelan AF has just 12 F-16A/Bs, I dont think they have been properly maintained. Used F-16s from a EU NATO country looking to downsize seem more likely.


With upgardes everything is OK.


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## Yazp

Shabi1 said:


> Wikipedia shows Venezuelan AF has just 12 F-16A/Bs, I dont think they have been properly maintained. Used F-16s from a EU NATO country looking to downsize seem more likely.


I think Venezuela sold it's F16s to Iran a few months ago


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## araz

black-hawk_101 said:


> With upgardes everything is OK.


If I am not mistaken they are block 5. They are older than our block 15s and their utility is doubtful. The Venezuelan Govtt might want to sell but PAF will not buy those planes.

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## Shabi1

Yazp said:


> I think Venezuela sold it's F16s to Iran a few months ago


They threatened to sell to Iran but they couldnt so just rumours. Venezuela is unable to find buyers, PAF doesn't seem interested in them too, it will have better options elsewhere.

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## Yazp

Shabi1 said:


> PAF doesn't seem interested in them too, it will have better options elsewhere.


I wouldn't be interested in buying F16 A/Bs either. They're almost obsolete.


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## princefaisal

Yazp said:


> I wouldn't be interested in buying F16 A/Bs either. They're almost obsolete.


These F-16s can be used for basic Pilot trainings or as spares if available at throw away price.

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## fatman17

Yazp said:


> I wouldn't be interested in buying F16 A/Bs either. They're almost obsolete.



After upgrades F16s get a new life. US is currently upgrading nearly 400 F16s for its air force.

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> After upgrades F16s get a new life. US is currently upgrading nearly 400 F16s for its air force.


But sir the Venezuelan ones are decades old. Venezuelan was one of the first export customer and got there Blk-15 planes in 1983, also these planes have been hit by embargo. I don't think there will be much life left in these not even after *massive *upgrades.



araz said:


> If I am not mistaken they are block 5. They are older than our block 15s and their utility is doubtful. The Venezuelan Govtt might want to sell but PAF will not buy those planes.


Block-15 OCU

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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> But sir the Venezuelan ones are decades old. Venezuelan was one of the first export customer and got there Blk-15 planes in 1983, also these planes have been hit by embargo. I don't think there will be much life left in these not even after *massive *upgrades.
> 
> 
> Block-15 OCU



I'm not advocating buying them. Some poster started this nonsense. Lots of rumours going on the PDF these days.

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> I'm not advocating buying them. Some poster started this nonsense. Lots of rumours going on the PDF these days.



Gussa na krain sir jee, You should be grateful that those posters restricted themselves to F-16, no matter how old these are and how stupid that move may be, at least it have some platform commonality, will fit with our fleet as we operate F-16. Shukar krain,,, warna we have people claiming PAF going for Su-35, Army getting FOUR different attack helicopters, about a dozen different IFV are being associated with PA. Navy walay tora sukoon mein haan bs..

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## Ack Ack




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## fatman17

Arsalan said:


> Gussa na krain sir jee, You should be grateful that those posters restricted themselves to F-16, no matter how old these are and how stupid that move may be, at least it have some platform commonality, will fit with our fleet as we operate F-16. Shukar krain,,, warna we have people claiming PAF going for Su-35, Army getting FOUR different attack helicopters, about a dozen different IFV are being associated with PA. Navy walay tora sukoon mein haan bs..



Udhar bi aircraft carrier khareeda ja raha hai

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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> Udhar bi aircraft carrier khareeda ja raha hai



Chlain,, Rumor mein he sahi... 
Wasay after writing the post i also remembered about the revelation that in the 8 subs we are going to buy from China 2 are confirmed nuclear. This aircraft carrier thing is new for me

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## DANGER-ZONE

Folks .... Doesn't this paint scheme looks familiar to you guys.

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## Arsalan

DANGER-ZONE said:


> Folks .... Doesn't this paint scheme looks familiar to you guys.


That is a common color scheme so nothing to be surprised about. Yes we do use them with F-16 but then again, it is a common theme and you will find many aircraft painted the same so that is most probably why Bangladesh opted for it for its Yak-130s. It sure look great on our vipers


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## DANGER-ZONE

Arsalan said:


> That is a common color scheme so nothing to be surprised about. Yes we do use them with F-16 but then again, it is a common theme and you will find many aircraft painted the same so that is most probably why Bangladesh opted for it for its Yak-130s. It sure look great on our vipers



I may be stating it wrong ... I am more concerned about the pattern, the design rather than the colors. Light and Dark grey colors are widely used on fighter aircraft and its common, agreed.
But the design is identical, one wide patch of dark grey on main wing and smaller one on stabilators, we used in on F-16, Mirage-3, DA-20 and a single JF-17.

BTW can u plz show me the picture of any aircraft with same design as PAF aircraft.


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## Viper0011.

Yazp said:


> I think Venezuela sold it's F16s to Iran a few months ago



They couldn't have....Iran is still under sanctions and the laws need to be passed before anyone can do business with them. Plus, Venezuela has signed a contract with the manufacturer and the US government. They know better what they are supposed to do if they want to sell those. They'll need an approval from the US government.

Last, the PAF won't want them. These will turn out to be a mess and very expensive older planes, not a lot of room to upgrade and will require entire overhaul all the way as these were the first gen planes. Pakistan should instead find used -16's block 40 which they should be able to find through surplus US ANG and from other countries. These are a notch below block 52, but come pre-wired for AMRAAM and other toys. This would be plug and play for the PAF to boost numbers for a very cheap price tag. You can later upgrade them with the newer radar of keep those as is for the next decade as they'll serve the purpose for air-defense, etc.


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## Arsalan

DANGER-ZONE said:


> I may be stating it wrong ... I am more concerned about the pattern, the design rather than the colors. Light and Dark grey colors are widely used on fighter aircraft and its common, agreed.
> But the design is identical, one wide patch of dark grey on main wing and smaller one on stabilators, we used in on F-16, Mirage-3, DA-20 and a single JF-17.
> 
> BTW can u plz show me the picture of any aircraft with same design as PAF aircraft.









Another similar looking one, not exactly same but similar





Plus, what is the matter even if it is exactly the same sir?


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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

Windjammer said:


> JHMCS seems a standard feature with PAF F-16 community.


jammer boy , does P.a.F. have a S.e.a.d. & D.e.a.d. squadron separately or atleast a combat-ready operational strategy for the same ?


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## syed_yusuf

i agree BAF YAK-130 scheme looks very similar to that of PAF


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## MastanKhan

syed_yusuf said:


> i agree BAF YAK-130 scheme looks very similar to that of PAF



Hi,

I just got some new eye glasses----maybe you need new one too.

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## fatman17

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> jammer boy , does P.a.F. have a S.e.a.d. & D.e.a.d. squadron separately or atleast a combat-ready operational strategy for the same ?



Nope


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## fatman17

PLAAF J-10 locked on by PAF F-16 during Excercise Eagle. 

In recent months, there are various reports in China regarding to a military exercise between them & Pakistan called 'Exercise Eagle'. All reports mentioned that the Chinese J-10 had a few mockup air battles againat the F-16, and as a result the J-10 were completely defeated. The above photo of a J-10 got a radar locked by a F-16 in a gun sight surfaced in Chinese Internets. It generates many questions within the country about the true performance of the J-10. 

The J-10 & F-16 are almost equal in comparison, I guess it was more about the pilot training rather then the performance of the plane that produces such outcome. China never really practically engaged in an air conflict in many years (the last time was some air skirmish with Taiwan but that was ages ago), thus their pilots lack combat experience. On the other hand, although PAF is a small air force, it has been involved in a number of air wars since 1959. I read an article about a joint exercise between China & Turkey years ago that China was also defeated in mock-up air battles using their J-11. However, very different to the past it seems that China is not scare of losing and is very active in engaging exercises with foreign military in recent years. And within the China it seems they are quite open for criticism too. Opening up its military to the world will create understanding, but most importantly enhance and improve its own capabilities. More good than bad. 

PLAAF J-10 locked on by PAF F-16 during 'Exercise Eagle' | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

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## Windjammer

The above image is not of a J-10 but of EF Typhoon, seen through the HUD of an F-16.
Ironically i captured and downloaded this video grab.


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## unleashed

Windjammer said:


> The above image is not of a J-10 but of EF Typhoon, seen through the HUD of an F-16.
> Ironically i captured and downloaded this video grab.


Sorry for the irrelevant and noob question..
I have heard that PAF is still looking for f-16s.
If that's true, i wanted to know the numbers and from where PAF could purchase??


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## Windjammer

unleashed said:


> Sorry for the irrelevant and noob question..
> I have heard that PAF is still looking for f-16s.
> If that's true, i wanted to know the numbers and from where PAF could purchase??


Let's put it this way, PAF's original requirement for some 40 F-16 Block-52 was cut down by half. That security requirement is still pending, which needs to be addressed with more F-16s or similar capability platform.
BTW, these are not my words.

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## unleashed

Windjammer said:


> Let's put it this way, PAF's original requirement for some 40 F-16 Block-52 was cut down by half. That security requirement is still pending, which needs to be addressed with more F-16s or similar capability platform.
> BTW, these are not my words.



Thanks for the clarification. 
Is there any pending deal regarding them?

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## fatman17

unleashed said:


> Sorry for the irrelevant and noob question..
> I have heard that PAF is still looking for f-16s.
> If that's true, i wanted to know the numbers and from where PAF could purchase??



Various ways 
New 
EDA 
3rd party


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## fatman17

unleashed said:


> Thanks for the clarification.
> Is there any pending deal regarding them?



Yes US owes 14 EDA F16s approved by Bush administration 
18 new F16s for which re approval of Congress is required

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## unleashed

fatman17 said:


> Yes US owes 14 EDA F16s approved by Bush administration
> 18 new F16s for which re approval of Congress is required



Such a bliss.. i was unware of this deal bro, i thought we are done with USA 
we need approval for 18 new F16s , how about rest of the 14?
And 1 more thing, what is the current status of this deal?


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## Saifullah

Which Engine is installed in our D Block F16s ?


----------



## fatman17

RajputRana said:


> Which Engine is installed in our D Block F16s ?



The good one

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## Saifullah

fatman17 said:


> The good one


i mean PW or GE ? more specifically F100-PW-200 or F110-GE-100 ?
and if you don't know please don't troll.


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## fatman17

RajputRana said:


> i mean PW or GE ? more specifically F100-PW-200 or F110-GE-100 ?
> and if you don't know please don't troll.



PW


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## untitled

RajputRana said:


> i mean PW or GE ? more specifically F100-PW-200 or F110-GE-100 ?
> and if you don't know please don't troll.



For future reference
F-100 series PW
F-110 series GE


----------



## black-hawk_101

When PAF getting its remaining 14 F-16s from USA and also why not another 12 F-16s from Venezuelan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and may be more from Jordan too as they might be buying 80-120 EF-2000 with GCC support.

Also there are some other options too:
Chilean Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Royal Jordanian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Portuguese Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Romanian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Though USA has a huge fleet of F-16A/Bs so they can also sell 100s to PAF if they need to.

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## fatman17

black-hawk_101 said:


> When PAF getting its remaining 14 F-16s from USA and also why not another 12 F-16s from Venezuelan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and may be more from Jordan too as they might be buying 80-120 EF-2000 with GCC support.
> 
> Also there are some other options too:
> Chilean Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Royal Jordanian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Portuguese Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Romanian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Though USA has a huge fleet of F-16A/Bs so they can also sell 100s to PAF if they need to.



Sure no problem

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## black-hawk_101

fatman17 said:


> Sure no problem


As most of these countries are now only interested in Russian or new EU/US weapons so F-16s might not be of their interest but PAF needs F-16s in good numbers.


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## untitled

black-hawk_101 said:


> When PAF getting its remaining 14 F-16s from USA and also why not another 12 F-16s from Venezuelan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and may be more from Jordan too as they might be buying 80-120 EF-200.......



You do realize that some of these F-16s are not equipped with the same engines PAF operates

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## black-hawk_101

persona_non_grata said:


> You do realize that some of these F-16s are not equipped with the same engines PAF operates


Yeah! But PAF has the capability to make it the same by selling those and getting some from International market.


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## Viper0011.

persona_non_grata said:


> For future reference
> F-100 series PW
> F-110 series GE



GE F-404 engines were the main engines designed for the -16 and -18. F110 was a modified version with much higher reliability and cheaper cost standards and was adopted as a better engine than F-100. It required one to two shop / basic visits every 1000 flying hours. The results and reliability was so impressive that even India negotiated for this engine for their LCA aircraft, after failing to produce a decent engine.


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## untitled

Viper0011. said:


> GE F-404 engines were the main engines designed for the -16 and -18. F110 was a modified version with much higher reliability and cheaper cost standards and was adopted as a better engine than F-100. .........



The F-404 was never used in production F-16s
In the beginning the US contemplated offering J-79 (of F-4 Phantom fame) powered F-16s in export orders because the F-100 was considered to sensitive a technology to export







The various blocks of F-16 alternate between the F-100 and F-110 variants. I think all versions of F-15 use the F-100 variants


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## unleashed

black-hawk_101 said:


> When PAF getting its remaining 14 F-16s from USA and also why not another 12 F-16s from Venezuelan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and may be more from Jordan too as they might be buying 80-120 EF-2000 with GCC support.
> 
> Also there are some other options too:
> Chilean Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Royal Jordanian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Portuguese Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Romanian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Though USA has a huge fleet of F-16A/Bs so they can also sell 100s to PAF if they need to.


Any development / time frame regarding procurement of F16s from 3rd party or USA?

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## JPMM

black-hawk_101 said:


> When PAF getting its remaining 14 F-16s from USA and also why not another 12 F-16s from Venezuelan Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and may be more from Jordan too as they might be buying 80-120 EF-2000 with GCC support.
> 
> Also there are some other options too:
> Chilean Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Royal Jordanian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Portuguese Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Romanian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Though USA has a huge fleet of F-16A/Bs so they can also sell 100s to PAF if they need to.


 
Sorry!! We are busy right now! The Romanian will be delivered from September 2015 to September 2016, too late!

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## Paksanity

JPMM said:


> Sorry!! We are busy right now! The Romanian will be delivered from September 2015 to September 2016, too late!


LoL.... For a moment I thought your F-16 is being refuelled by Russian bomber!

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## JPMM

Paksanity said:


> LoL.... For a moment I thought your F-16 is being refuelled by Russian bomber!


 
Two Russian Tu95 Bear-H and two Il38 MIdas tanker were intercepted in 29/10/14 and 31/10/14 over the Atlantic Ocean near the Portuguese Coast, with their IFF & radios turn-off testing us. They were at 160 km from the coast. They came from the north and were being escorted by NATO fighters since Norway.

At the same time we were intercepting Russian Aircraft at the Baltic and the Russians MiG31 were intercepting Portuguese P3C CUP+ in ELINT mission near the Russian cost of Baltic.

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## fatman17

This is a F16 thread please


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## Hurter



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## DrWatson775

Junaid B said:


> View attachment 243827



Why PAF? Aren't those USAF insignia on the wings?


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## Hurter

DrWatson775 said:


> Why PAF? Aren't those USAF insignia on the wings?



Probably yes.. But this pic was derived from PAF's official website.


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## IrbiS

DrWatson775 said:


> Why PAF? Aren't those USAF insignia on the wings?





Junaid B said:


> Probably yes.. But this pic was derived from PAF's official website.



It's not the 1st time, they have put USAF photos on PAF website earlier


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## untitled

IrbiS said:


> It's not the 1st time, they have put USAF photos on PAF website earlier




I think it is one of those jets that were delivered to PAF in American markings


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## IrbiS

persona_non_grata said:


> I think it is one of those jets that were delivered to PAF in American markings



It's our own new C Block-52+, but what will others say that we can't even post a correct pic on OFFICIAL website


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## untitled

IrbiS said:


> It's our own new C Block-52+, but what will others say that we can't even post a correct pic on OFFICIAL website



Nothing wrong in showing the world how the plane arrived in Pakistan

Won't be surprised if the jet was flown by an American pilot

If you look at the markings it has only the USAF roundels. No sqaudron / wing insignia. Probably to make it easier for PAF to give it new paint job


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## Donatello

That is F-16C BLK52+, aircraft number 10902. It was the second C version to be delivered, and i believe was part of the official certification for the PAF standard.
If you look on the tail, it has the flag area painted out. I believe the F-16s are USAF asset (as their pilot might be flying) until it is delivered to PAF. That is to make sure, that if any mishap happens, it lies with the USAF/LM and not PAF.

@Windjammer what do you say, why did they leave the USAF roundels on the wings?


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## IrbiS

persona_non_grata said:


> Nothing wrong in showing the world how the plane arrived in Pakistan
> 
> Won't be surprised if the jet was flown by an American pilot
> 
> If you look at the markings it has only the USAF roundels. No sqaudron / wing insignia. Probably to make it easier for PAF to give it new paint job



Pic should be from U.S before delivery. PAF website guys take fotos from web for the site


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## untitled

IrbiS said:


> Pic should be from U.S before delivery. PAF website guys take fotos from web for the site



It looks like a Pakistani air field to me


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## Hurter

Look at the last 2 pictures.. They both are Block 52 D... But the difference is the side body.. Is it removable? 

@fatman17 @waz @FaujHistorian @Akheilos @Zarvan

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## Zarvan

Junaid B said:


> View attachment 244038
> 
> 
> View attachment 244039
> 
> The
> View attachment 244040
> 
> 
> Look at the last 2 pictures.. They both are Block 52 D... But the difference is the side body.. Is it removable?
> 
> @fatman17 @waz @FaujHistorian @Akheilos @Zarvan


The last one looks like BLOCK 60


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## untitled

@Junaid B 
Yes the sidebody is called CFTs (conformal fuel tanks)
This forum is full of info on them both real and fictional


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## Hurter

Zarvan said:


> The last one looks like BLOCK 60



I wish it was... But it's Block 52


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## untitled

Zarvan said:


> The last one looks like BLOCK 60



Block 60 has a big FLIR phora on the nose

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## HRK

Junaid B said:


> View attachment 244038
> 
> 
> View attachment 244039
> 
> 
> View attachment 244040
> 
> 
> Look at the last 2 pictures.. They both are Block 52 D... But the difference is the side body.. Is it removable?
> 
> @fatman17 @waz @FaujHistorian @Akheilos @Zarvan



Its CFT in the second pic ...


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## fatman17

Junaid B said:


> View attachment 244038
> 
> 
> View attachment 244039
> 
> 
> View attachment 244040
> 
> 
> Look at the last 2 pictures.. They both are Block 52 D... But the difference is the side body.. Is it removable?
> 
> @fatman17 @waz @FaujHistorian @Akheilos @Zarvan



CFT


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## fatman17

No 11 Sqn

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## fatman17

F16 peace drive


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## Hurter

fatman17 said:


> CFT



Okk.. F16 looks more powerful with CFT


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## HRK

Junaid B said:


> View attachment 243827



'10912' (No USAF Insignia)





*PAF F-16C block 52* #10912 is seen landing at Lajes Field, Azores during a stopover before delivery to Pakistan on December 9th, 2010

'82603' (With USAF Insignia)





*PAF F-16B block 15 #82603 *is touching down on the runway at *Lajes AFB on its way from Pakistan to the US *for its MLU conversion

10804 (With USAF Insignia)






PAF F-16D block 52 #10804 is seen landing at Lajes Field, Azores during a stopover b*efore delivery to Pakistan on June 22nd, 2010*

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## alikazmi007

persona_non_grata said:


> The F-404 was never used in production F-16s
> In the beginning the US contemplated offering J-79 (of F-4 Phantom fame) powered F-16s in export orders because the F-100 was considered to sensitive a technology to export
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The various blocks of F-16 alternate between the F-100 and F-110 variants. I think all versions of F-15 use the F-100 variants


The first one, or the nearest one, F-16/7, has GE J-79 engine!
The middle one is the one with the F-101 engine!

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## fatman17

What happens is that the owners roundels and serial number are taped over and temporary numbers are stencilled by the designated country in this case US. It's SOP for incoming and outgoing aircraft.

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## Hurter



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## HRK

F-16 Decoy USAF (though not directly related to PAF)






if I am not wrong during previous Ideas defence expo one of private Pakistani company display this type of decoy ....

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## Sulman Badshah

HRK said:


> F-16 Decoy USAF (though not directly related to PAF)
> 
> View attachment 244654
> 
> 
> if I am not wrong during previous Ideas defence expo one of private Pakistani company display this type of decoy ....



Yes Decoy from universal smart military system ... But they haven't displayed F16's one

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## Windjammer



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## RAMPAGE

@Windjammer @Oscar

It is possible to equip our AM/BM s with CFTs?


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## araz

RAMPAGE said:


> @Windjammer @Oscar
> 
> It is possible to equip our AM/BM s with CFTs?


No. The wing roots are not designed for it. Secondly increased air resistance will require a stronger engine. So in short ---NO.
araz

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## RAMPAGE

araz said:


> No. The wing roots are not designed for it. Secondly increased air resistance will require a stronger engine. So in short ---NO.
> araz








This book says that Isreal modified their fuel plumbing to support CFTs. Dont know if the author is reffering to the F-16s or the F-15s.


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## Viper0011.

Junaid B said:


> Look at the last 2 pictures.. They both are Block 52 D... But the difference is the side body.. Is it removable?
> 
> @fatman17 @waz @FaujHistorian @Akheilos @Zarvan



These are conformal fuel tanks and yes, they are removable. If you notice, the -16's block 52's spine was redesigned to support holding the CFT's and their weight, which increases during flight. Characteristic wise, the block 52 and above, is really a new plane altogether but still called -16.



RajputRana said:


> i mean PW or GE ? more specifically F100-PW-200 or F110-GE-100 ? and if you don't know please don't troll.



The customer picks this option usually. In Pakistan's case, Pakistan is a huge United Tech fan (the owner of Pratt and Whitney engines).

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## SQ8

RAMPAGE said:


> This book says that Isreal modified their fuel plumbing to support CFTs. Dont know if the author is reffering to the F-16s or the F-15s.


The F-15Cs always had the internal plumbing to take CFTs. The Israelis just added them on. 
The F-15A's structure was also available to take on the minimal changes needed for CFTs. 

The F-16 cannot and does not have the structural strength to take on the CFTs... I believe there is a big difference between the wing box of the F-16A/B and the C/D. @gambit ?

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## razgriz19

Windjammer said:


> The above image is not of a J-10 but of EF Typhoon, seen through the HUD of an F-16.
> Ironically i captured and downloaded this video grab.



whose F-16 is it? if i may ask

*USAF Aggressor Pilot on F-16

F-16C/D:* The Viper is, in my opinion, what a fighter should be. It is small, nimble, accelerates like a bullet and is a pure joy to fly. Instead of loading it down with bombs, the radar should have been improved to give it Eagle-like capabilities and the jet should have taken more of an air-to-air role. While I said that the F-15 is like a Mercedes, The F-16 is like a Formula One race car. The cockpit is tight and it gives you more of the sensation that you're actually wearing the jet than actually sitting in it. The side-stick controller takes about as much time to get used to as it takes to read this sentence.

I've flown all the C/D versions – Blocks 25, 30, 32, 40, 42, 50, 52. The Pratt-powered Blocks 25, 32 and 42 are good performers, but not great. The GE-powered Blocks 30, 40 and 50, plus the Pratt-powered Block 52 are absolute beasts. The GE-powered fleet is flown by the active-duty F-16 squadrons while Air National Guard and Reserve squadrons operate a mixed bag of GE-powered and Pratt-powered Vipers. I've never flown a jet that will out accelerate the GE-powered F-16. At low altitude, GE Vipers will step out to its airspeed of 810 knots indicated airspeed like nobody's business. The limit is based on the polycarbonate canopy and not the engine. At higher speeds the canopy starts to get warm due to air friction. At some point the canopy will start to deform if the jet gets much faster. At high altitude, I've had the jet out to Mach 2.05. This limit is due to the fixed air inlet and opposed the F-15's variable geometry inlet.

In his book, _Sierra Hotel: Flying Air Force Fighters in the Decade After Vietnam_, Col C.R. Anderegg, USAF (ret), former F-15 pilot and F-4 Fighter Weapons School graduate, wrote this about the F-16: "The pure joy of the F-16, though, was in the furball (complex dogfight with many aircraft), where the aircraft had the edge over the F-15 and a significant edge over everything else. With the F-16's incredible agility and power, the pilot could get close and stay close. He was less a viper than a python gradually squeezing the fight closer while beating down his victim's energy and resistance until the time came for a mortal blow. Chaff might spoof a radar missile or flares might decoy a heat-seeker, but as one pilot said, 'The gun is stupid. You can't jam it and you can't fool it.' The F-16 was a superb gunfighter, and in the furball it was the top cat."

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## araz

RAMPAGE said:


> This book says that Isreal modified their fuel plumbing to support CFTs. Dont know if the author is reffering to the F-16s or the F-15s.


Iam not sure. Perhaps one of the israeli posters might be able to fill you in. 
Araz


----------



## IrbiS

RAMPAGE said:


> This book says that Isreal modified their fuel plumbing to support CFTs. Dont know if the author is reffering to the F-16s or the F-15s.





araz said:


> Iam not sure. Perhaps one of the israeli posters might be able to fill you in.
> Araz



It's sure F-15 cause zionist F-16I are already equipped with CFTs plus they never wanted CFTs for older ones.

Eagles and CFTs go way back than with Viper. In case you didn't notice F-15 CFTs:

(Without CFT)






(With CFT, the bulge on the outer side of intake)

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## Saifullah

Viper0011. said:


> The customer picks this option usually. In Pakistan's case, Pakistan is a huge United Tech fan (the owner of Pratt and Whitney engines).


Both are from USA. GE one is better one but i think the logistics and maintenance would have been a huge issue.


----------



## nomi007

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153543109134919


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## Imran Khan

kuch bhi nazer nhi aya lolzz


----------



## MastanKhan

Imran Khan said:


> kuch bhi nazer nhi aya lolzz



You need to put your night vision goggles on.

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## majid mehmood

the radar on blk52 is apg69v9 which has 30% increase in the range mean
max range of apg 69v1 298km
so after adding 30%
v9 it should be around 370km
pls correct me if i am wrong


----------



## IrbiS

majid mehmood said:


> the radar on blk52 is apg69v9 which has 30% increase in the range mean
> max range of apg 69v1 298km
> so after adding 30%
> v9 it should be around 370km
> pls correct me if i am wrong



Welcome Janab,

I think you mean Apg-*68*v9 and range doesn't always work as a constant number


----------



## majid mehmood

IrbiS said:


> Welcome Janab,
> 
> I think you mean Apg-*68*v9 and range doesn't always work as a constant number


so i said around 370km


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## Windjammer

Solo Display aircraft
23rd March 2015, painted in red under the RWR, with W/C Azman Khalil at the controls. Check out the JHMCS.

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## GHOST RIDER

Windjammer said:


> Solo Display aircraft
> 23rd March 2015, painted in red under the RWR, with W/C Azman Khalil at the controls. Check out the JHMCS.



Is Wing Commander Azam Khalil also OC of an F-16 Squadron ?


----------



## majid mehmood

from searching Lockheed website the range of apg69v9 is 105 km @ 5m2, bars on mki is 140km @ 3m2 (the result from detecting mig 29)
the rcs of su 30 mki is 20m2 (fully loaded)
the rcs of f 16 is 2m2 (fully loaded)
apg will detect mki at around 160-180 km
bars will detect f16 at around 125-130
so f 16 will win in a bvr fight

link for rcs 
f16
Radar Cross Section (RCS)
mki
India, Russia close to PACT on next generation fighter | Business Standard News


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## Windjammer



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## razgriz19

Windjammer said:


> Solo Display aircraft
> 23rd March 2015, painted in red under the RWR, with W/C Azman Khalil at the controls. Check out the JHMCS.



I fail the see the advantage of having JHMCS when we don't actually have the off bore sight sidewinders. Even with the block 52, PAF opted for older versions, doesn't make any sense.


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## RAMPAGE

razgriz19 said:


> I fail the see the advantage of having JHMCS when we don't actually have the off bore sight sidewinders. Even with the block 52, PAF opted for older versions, doesn't make any sense.


Wait for the A Darters.


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## Basel

RAMPAGE said:


> Wait for the A Darters.



How long?? and what it offers over Aim-9X/X2??


----------



## Viper0011.

RAMPAGE said:


> Wait for the A Darters.



And the advanced AIM9X, which should be ordered in the next 2-3 years.


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## Basel

Viper0011. said:


> And the advanced AIM9X, which should be ordered in the next 2-3 years.



Why wait for next 2-3 year for Aim-9x in that time x2 version will be available which can also engage ground targets like tanks.


----------



## Viper0011.

Basel said:


> Why wait for next 2-3 year for Aim-9x in that time x2 version will be available which can also engage ground targets like tanks.



If you guys can pay cash tomorrow, I'd say go ahead and order. I believe the PAF is devising a long term strategy and once they are done + economy shows up more promising results in the next couple of years, they'll place some big orders. So you have to wait till things get better from a financial standpoint....

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## razgriz19

Viper0011. said:


> If you guys can pay cash tomorrow, I'd say go ahead and order. I believe the PAF is devising a long term strategy and once they are done + economy shows up more promising results in the next couple of years, they'll place some big orders. So you have to wait till things get better from a financial standpoint....



They ordered 500 Amraam rounds, a couple hundred of -9x wouldn't be such a big deal. 
There must another reason why it wasn't ordered, maybe at that time it wasn't ready.

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## fatman17

Viper0011. said:


> If you guys can pay cash tomorrow, I'd say go ahead and order. I believe the PAF is devising a long term strategy and once they are done + economy shows up more promising results in the next couple of years, they'll place some big orders. So you have to wait till things get better from a financial standpoint....



What makes you think request for the 9x hasn't been made in the recently concluded Defence Consultative Group Meeting with the US.


----------



## Viper0011.

razgriz19 said:


> They ordered 500 Amraam rounds, a couple hundred of -9x wouldn't be such a big deal.
> There must another reason why it wasn't ordered, maybe at that time it wasn't ready.



Those weren't being offered to anyone outside of probably Israel at the time and I would assume its because they were first fulfilling a certain amount of quantity / numbers for the US military....



fatman17 said:


> What makes you think request for the 9x hasn't been made in the recently concluded Defence Consultative Group Meeting with the US.



I never said the request hasn't been made. I know that once even -35 came up too in discussions. Requesting and getting something are two different things. The advanced version was being tested on -35 and would obviously require certain design changes to meet the future DAS based operation or higher off bore site. So they might've decided to complete testing, then create a certain number for the US military and then open for exports? which would mean they wouldn't be offered for export till like a specific year say 2017-2018?


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## fatman17

Military planners are focusing on weapons and missiles etc that are dual use. WOT and otherwise. AGMs JDAMs Pods Helos are easier to procure with less questions raised.

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## Viper0011.

fatman17 said:


> Military planners are focusing on weapons and missiles etc that are dual use. WOT and otherwise. AGMs JDAMs Pods Helos are easier to procure with less questions raised.



Of course. That's why I said 2018 from a Pakistani perspective. Till then, Pakistan should have significant cash in her savings account and good synergy with US businesses on opportunity inside Pakistan. At that time, when you are paying cash and have established good business relationships with the US, it won't be a no.

But I noticed it. Its smart to get dual purpose items so there are less questions and eyebrows raised.


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## Quwa

fatman17 said:


> Military planners are focusing on weapons and missiles etc that are dual use. WOT and otherwise. AGMs JDAMs Pods Helos are easier to procure with less questions raised.


AIM-9X isnt the only option, the PAF could also use the Diehl BGT IRIS-T, it was certified for use on the F-16 with JHMCS. I think they just don't have the funds to prioritize HOBS WVRAAM at this time (when they've been inducting JF-17, Block-52, used F-16s, AEW&C, Spada, etc). 

Even if the money were around, there'd be a limit in terms of how many different projects one can handle. A fifth-gen WVRAAM is a game changer and it might warrant additional training and time to smoothly bake into use. 

I think we'll start hearing and seeing more about HOBS WVRAAM in the next couple of years, especially once the Block-III nears finalization. I imagine we'll be ordering a large stockpile of WVRAAMs, but it'll be interesting to see if PAF single sources it between JF-17 and F-16.

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## monitor



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## Viper0011.

Mark Sien said:


> AIM-9X isnt the only option, the PAF could also use the Diehl BGT IRIS-T, it was certified for use on the F-16 with JHMCS. I think they just don't have the funds to prioritize HOBS WVRAAM at this time (when they've been inducting JF-17, Block-52, used F-16s, AEW&C, Spada, etc).
> 
> Even if the money were around, there'd be a limit in terms of how many different projects one can handle. A fifth-gen WVRAAM is a game changer and it might warrant additional training and time to smoothly bake into use.
> 
> I think we'll start hearing and seeing more about HOBS WVRAAM in the next couple of years, especially once the Block-III nears finalization. I imagine we'll be ordering a large stockpile of WVRAAMs, but it'll be interesting to see if PAF single sources it between JF-17 and F-16.




I agree with your post. There are multiple things going on. Many projects getting done and systems being inducted, Financial issues, and integration of platform, new training and all. Plus the US hasn't sold anyone a serious quantity of these new platforms. All these things will start to come together in the next few years.

I think it would make a lot of sense to standardize platforms for these weapons and procure one type for both, the JFT and for the -16. Advanced AIM can be used across and help standardized weapons, training, purchasing and all other processes. Resulting in much lower TCO.


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## Side-Winder

Mark Sien said:


> AIM-9X isnt the only option, the PAF could also use the Diehl BGT IRIS-T, it was certified for use on the F-16 with JHMCS. I think they just don't have the funds to prioritize HOBS WVRAAM at this time (when they've been inducting JF-17, Block-52, used F-16s, AEW&C, Spada, etc).
> 
> Even if the money were around, there'd be a limit in terms of how many different projects one can handle. A fifth-gen WVRAAM is a game changer and it might warrant additional training and time to smoothly bake into use.
> 
> I think we'll start hearing and seeing more about HOBS WVRAAM in the next couple of years, especially once the Block-III nears finalization. I imagine we'll be ordering a large stockpile of WVRAAMs, but it'll be interesting to see if PAF single sources it between JF-17 and F-16.



So how effective is the AIM-9 M with JHMCS?


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## Quwa

Side-Winder said:


> So how effective is the AIM-9 M with JHMCS?


I don't think there'd be much of an improvement compared to using AIM-9M without JHMCS. To make the most out of JHMCS the PAF needs a 4th or 5th gen High Off-Bore Sight (HOBS) WVRAAM. As far as the F-16 is concerned, the AIM-9X and IRIS-T are potential options. JF-17 on the other hand, the A-Darter is slotted as the leading option, though PAF could theoretically work on getting both JF-17 and F-16 to use IRIS-T.


Viper0011. said:


> I agree with your post. There are multiple things going on. Many projects getting done and systems being inducted, Financial issues, and integration of platform, new training and all. Plus the US hasn't sold anyone a serious quantity of these new platforms. All these things will start to come together in the next few years.
> 
> I think it would make a lot of sense to standardize platforms for these weapons and procure one type for both, the JFT and for the -16. Advanced AIM can be used across and help standardized weapons, training, purchasing and all other processes. Resulting in much lower TCO.


Yep, but I don't think U.S would want AIM-9X touching JF-17. IRIS-T is likelier, or maybe even A-Darter.


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## fatman17

The PAF leans towards buying US made equipment


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## Viper0011.

Side-Winder said:


> So how effective is the AIM-9 M with JHMCS?



VERY effective. It's a hell lot more HOBS capability to the existing Viper. I would imagine that smaller DAS like platforms might become available in the future for any new blocks of the -16. Providing current tech standards in a combat proven system like the Viper, without Stealth though.

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## fatman17

The US has sold Pakistan every model of the sidewinder series and I see no reason why the 9x won't be released


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## Donatello

fatman17 said:


> The US has sold Pakistan every model of the sidewinder series and I see no reason why the 9x won't be released



About time it gets released.....what are they/us waiting for?

Wouldn't cost no more than 400-500 million USD to finance fleet wide.


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## razgriz19

Donatello said:


> About time it gets released.....what are they/us waiting for?
> 
> Wouldn't cost no more than 400-500 million USD to finance fleet wide.



We don't need them in huge numbers, just enough to complement the existing variants. 
300+ rounds for around $150 million isn't a bad deal considering the unprecedented capability it brings


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## Donatello

razgriz19 said:


> We don't need them in huge numbers, just enough to complement the existing variants.
> 300+ rounds for around $150 million isn't a bad deal considering the unprecedented capability it brings



300 rounds is not enough, the idea is to replace AIM9L/M/P versions, for a fleet of 74 jets, you need at least 4 per aircraft plus another 4 for another sortie....so looking around 400-500 units.


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## razgriz19

Donatello said:


> 300 rounds is not enough, the idea is to replace AIM9L/M/P versions, for a fleet of 74 jets, you need at least 4 per aircraft plus another 4 for another sortie....so looking around 400-500 units.



I understand what you're saying, but i don't think they will be fully replaced anytime soon. PAF ordered 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder with the new f-16s. I highly doubt that they would be replaced, that's why i said we just need enough X to complement the existing missiles.


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## Donatello

razgriz19 said:


> I understand what you're saying, but i don't think they will be fully replaced anytime soon. PAF ordered 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder with the new f-16s. I highly doubt that they would be replaced, that's why i said we just need enough X to complement the existing missiles.



If you have AIM9X, it can superseed the AIM9s anyway, why use both, when AIM9X is clearly better....?

I was surprised that PAF only ordered 200 AIM9s but 500 BVR AMRAAMs.......they might have had the AIM9X on the cards....but don't know what is the deal now.......we should have those by now.....


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## nomi007

lead from front









Chief Of the Air Staff Pakistan Air Force before take off, he is Participating in air Strikes on Terrorists in ongoing Operation Zarb e Azab near Afghan Border in North Wazirastan, Pakistan

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## razgriz19

Donatello said:


> If you have AIM9X, it can superseed the AIM9s anyway, why use both, when AIM9X is clearly better....?
> 
> I was surprised that PAF only ordered 200 AIM9s but 500 BVR AMRAAMs.......they might have had the AIM9X on the cards....but don't know what is the deal now.......we should have those by now.....



well PAF already has crap ton of AIM-9s, they can't just dump them if they're still fairly new. Those 200 were just follow on order for the new F-16s. One reason I can think of is that US started taking deliveries around 2005, and this was around the time deal was done for the block 52 F-16s. Same dilemma as AH-1Z viper, US first policy.
International users have just recently started using AIM-9X. We can get them if we order now. I'm sure its on the cards since they're using JHMCS on most f-16s. That was the main purpose of owning a JHMCS.
Maybe timing is not right at the moment. We can order equipment related to ground strikes, but ordering a 5th generation missiles would definitely raise eyebrows everywhere. Not to mention India will get a heart attack.


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## fatman17

razgriz19 said:


> well PAF already has crap ton of AIM-9s, they can't just dump them if they're still fairly new. Those 200 were just follow on order for the new F-16s. One reason I can think of is that US started taking deliveries around 2005, and this was around the time deal was done for the block 52 F-16s. Same dilemma as AH-1Z viper, US first policy.
> International users have just recently started using AIM-9X. We can get them if we order now. I'm sure its on the cards since they're using JHMCS on most f-16s. That was the main purpose of owning a JHMCS.
> Maybe timing is not right at the moment. We can order equipment related to ground strikes, but ordering a 5th generation missiles would definitely raise eyebrows everywhere. Not to mention India will get a heart attack.



Sorry sidewinder Aim9s are not crap


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## Mani2020

fatman17 said:


> Sorry sidewinder Aim9s are not crap



I guess he was talking in relative terms ... When paf had gotten their hands on latest variant why did they go with the older ones especially when they knew our older f-16s will be capable of firing them too after mlu

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## JPMM

Hi! some people have douts about the F16 fleet that came from Jordan. I have a "Air Forces Monthly" from Feb99 with an article about it, it says:

12 F16A & 4 F16B Block-15ADF delivered in 17 December 1997 to 30 March 1998
"The ADF is the only version equiped with the AN/APG-66(V)1 radar with a continuous-wave illumination capability to provide guidance from the AIM-7 Sparrow"
"The 16 F16 for Jordan were taken from AMARC Arizona, were they had been in storage since between June 1994 and October 1995 after serving the Air National Guard. Starting in September 1995, the aircraft were transfered to ALC Hill AFB for a complete overhaul and to go through the Falcon Up/Service Life Improvement Programe. This overhaul includes structural modifications whitch double the projected airframe service life to 8000 flying hours. Major tasks included bead blasting the old paint of the aircraft, performing functional check flights and redyng the aircraft for delivery. Workshop personnel overhauled wings, control surfaces, canopies and redomes, then inspected and repaired avionics, radars, instruments, control panels and other critical aircraft systems, such as external fuel tanks, pylons, AIM9 missile launchers, ejection seats and 20mm gun system. Furthermore the aircraft were fitted with PW 26660lbst F-100-PW-220E turbofan engines and a Ring Laser Gyro INS. Interestingly, the aircraft retained the Teledyne/E-Systems AN/APX-109 Mk.XI AIFF system. This system - distingwishable by the blade antenna arrays forward of the canopy and below the intake - is unique to the ADF and was not cleared for export until recently. In adition, the jordanian F16s are fitted with Bendix/King AN/ARC-200 High Frequency/Single Side Band Radios, wich are a standard feature of the ADF version"

Serial numbers were:
F16A 80-0544
F16A 80-0546
F16A 80-0547
F16A 80-0555
F16A 80-0582
F16A 80-0585
F16A 80-0590
F16A 80-0592
F16A 80-0618
F16A 81-0672
F16A 81-0689
F16A 81-0714
F16B 82-1028
F16B 82-1030
F16B 82-1044
F16B 82-1048

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## fatman17

JPMM said:


> Hi! some people have douts about the F16 fleet that came from Jordan. I have a "Air Forces Monthly" from Feb99 with an article about it, it says:
> 
> 12 F16A & 4 F16B Block-15ADF delivered in 17 December 1997 to 30 March 1998
> "The ADF is the only version equiped with the AN/APG-66(V)1 radar with a continuous-wave illumination capability to provide guidance from the AIM-7 Sparrow"
> "The 16 F16 for Jordan were taken from AMARC Arizona, were they had been in storage since between June 1994 and October 1995 after serving the Air National Guard. Starting in September 1995, the aircraft were transfered to ALC Hill AFB for a complete overhaul and to go through the Falcon Up/Service Life Improvement Programe. This overhaul includes structural modifications whitch double the projected airframe service life to 8000 flying hours. Major tasks included bead blasting the old paint of the aircraft, performing functional check flights and redyng the aircraft for delivery. Workshop personnel overhauled wings, control surfaces, canopies and redomes, then inspected and repaired avionics, radars, instruments, control panels and other critical aircraft systems, such as external fuel tanks, pylons, AIM9 missile launchers, ejection seats and 20mm gun system. Furthermore the aircraft were fitted with PW 26660lbst F-100-PW-220E turbofan engines and a Ring Laser Gyro INS. Interestingly, the aircraft retained the Teledyne/E-Systems AN/APX-109 Mk.XI AIFF system. This system - distingwishable by the blade antenna arrays forward of the canopy and below the intake - is unique to the ADF and was not cleared for export until recently. In adition, the jordanian F16s are fitted with Bendix/King AN/ARC-200 High Frequency/Single Side Band Radios, wich are a standard feature of the ADF version"
> 
> Serial numbers were:
> F16A 80-0544
> F16A 80-0546
> F16A 80-0547
> F16A 80-0555
> F16A 80-0582
> F16A 80-0585
> F16A 80-0590
> F16A 80-0592
> F16A 80-0618
> F16A 81-0672
> F16A 81-0689
> F16A 81-0714
> F16B 82-1028
> F16B 82-1030
> F16B 82-1044
> F16B 82-1048



Good to know


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## fatman17

Mani2020 said:


> I guess he was talking in relative terms ... When paf had gotten their hands on latest variant why did they go with the older ones especially when they knew our older f-16s will be capable of firing them too after mlu



All rounds purchased upgraded before the MLU.


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## Mani2020

fatman17 said:


> All rounds purchased upgraded before the MLU.


He was reffering to aim 9x and I don't think paf aim9s are or can be upgraded to aim 9x level ...simply because some of the advanced features of aim9x such as 3 dimensional tvc , compatibility with jhmcs etc .correct me if I am wrong here


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## Windjammer



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## fatman17

Mani2020 said:


> He was reffering to aim 9x and I don't think paf aim9s are or can be upgraded to aim 9x level ...simply because some of the advanced features of aim9x such as 3 dimensional tvc , compatibility with jhmcs etc .correct me if I am wrong here



Did l say that. I don't think so


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## Mani2020

fatman17 said:


> Did l say that. I don't think so



then what was the point in mentioning the upgrades when the variant under discussion was Aim 9x ? The discussion was why paf didn't go for Aim 9x when they knew after mlu even the older f-16s will be capable of firing them....simple...and you brought Aim-9 upgrades point which by the way are still inferior to the latest variant ..so we are on ground zero again.


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## fatman17

Mani2020 said:


> then what was the point in mentioning the upgrades when the variant under discussion was Aim 9x ? The discussion was why paf didn't go for Aim 9x when they knew after mlu even the older f-16s will be capable of firing them....simple...and you brought Aim-9 upgrades point which by the way are still inferior to the latest variant ..so we are on ground zero again.



The 9x was not on offer at that time. Can't have everything everytime


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## Mani2020

fatman17 said:


> The 9x was not on offer at that time. Can't have everything everytime


As far as i know AIM9x became operational during 2003... So when US can offer latest f-16s , Aim-120s and other goodies ,why they would be so fussy about aim 9x?


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## Donatello

Mani2020 said:


> As far as i know AIM9x became operational during 2003... So when US can offer latest f-16s , Aim-120s and other goodies ,why they would be so fussy about aim 9x?



Sometimes export restrictions are placed, as they don't know how the new technology will affect the balance of power.


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## araz

Mani2020 said:


> As far as i know AIM9x became operational during 2003... So when US can offer latest f-16s , Aim-120s and other goodies ,why they would be so fussy about aim 9x?


To give you another example the USAF was using AMRAAM C7 yet we bought C5s. So yes USAAF might have had AIM9X but it was not offered and sometimes it is appropriate to not ask for something you know will get refused.
Araz

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## Beethoven

Hi Guys,
Any updates on the 18 remaining F-16 -52's.


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## Mani2020

araz said:


> To give you another example the USAF was using AMRAAM C7 yet we bought C5s. So yes USAAF might have had AIM9X but it was not offered and sometimes it is appropriate to not ask for something you know will get refused.
> Araz


 I was expecting this example lol ...BTW sounds some what logical


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## nomi007

*Officers of the Chilean Air Force advise Colombia Air Force not to buy second hand F-16s*

*but paf is getting more used f-16s
why*


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## Capt.Popeye

nomi007 said:


> *Officers of the Chilean Air Force advise Colombia Air Force not to buy second hand F-16s*
> 
> *but paf is getting more used f-16s*
> *why*




Because they are cheaper.


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## niaz

nomi007 said:


> *Officers of the Chilean Air Force advise Colombia Air Force not to buy second hand F-16s*
> 
> *but paf is getting more used f-16s
> why*



Columbia armed forces have not being involved in a major war since the 1954 Korean War when a small contingent was part of the UN forces. There is of course a civil war going on the Columbia for more than 60 years with the left wing guerrillas mainly FARC ( Revolutionary Armed Forces of Columbia) similar to Pak Army fighting the TTP& BNLA. This is primarily a counter insurgency operation hence, except for about 20 KFir; Columbian Air Force consists of about 40 lightly armed COIN aircraft.

Chile has not fought a war with another country during the last hundred years. Even though Chile declared war on Japan during 1945, no engagements involving Chilean armed forces took place. Closest Chile came to war was on a border dispute with Argentina in 1978 but this was also resolved without any shots being fired in anger.

Additionally, Chile is very long thin country being more than 2,500mile coastline but average width of only about 110 mile. As reflected thru her armed forces; her defence would be primarily thru Navy & Army with Air force being the third in priority.

Chilean Army is about 45,000, Navy about 25,000 and Air Force only about 10,000 with less than 60 front line aircraft, mostly F-16 with a few F-5. .

Most importantly, unlike PAF; neither Columbian nor Chilean Air Force is facing the mammoth IAF and thus no need to maintain about 20 front line squadrons. PAF is therefore forced to optimise its financial resources; hence the need to acquire second had F-16 to make up the numbers.

IMHO quoting Columbian and/or Chile’s example for questioning PAF’s choice of weaponry is inappropriate. If we must; we should compare Chile’s Navy with Pak Navy which are presently of comparable size. Pak Nay has 9 frigates and 5 submarines versus Chile Navy operating 8 frigates plus 4 submarines

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## Sulman Badshah

Squadron no 19 Sherdils Got new marking

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## elitepilot09

Sulman Badshah said:


> Squadron no 19 Sherdils Got new marking
> 
> View attachment 254347



It looks like they got rid of the Jordanian camo scheme and replaced it with the standard PAF F-16 scheme.


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## HRK

Sulman Badshah said:


> Squadron no 19 Sherdils Got new marking
> 
> View attachment 254347



what this bump at tail root never observe it before with any other 16....

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## Sulman Badshah

HRK said:


> what this bump at tail root never observe it before with any other 16....



It is normal for ADF variants .. Others members might elaborate it specifically 

Italian 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/2010-08-08_F-16_Italian_Airforce_02.jpg

Thai 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Rtaf_f16adf_102_analayo.jpg

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## khanasifm

ATLIS II pods were made operational on these aircraft as well


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## Quwa

nomi007 said:


> *Officers of the Chilean Air Force advise Colombia Air Force not to buy second hand F-16s*
> 
> *but paf is getting more used f-16s
> why*


Indonesia was able to get surplus F-16C/Ds as well as near Block-52 upgrades for around $31.25mn a fighter. As far as modern fighters of this calibre go, the PAF isn't going to get better deals, not unless someone decides to literally dump Mirage 2000-5/-9s for around that much, which is *absolutely not going to happen*.

Unfortunately the only drawbacks for the PAF (preventing it from even getting new F-16s) are (1) Pakistan's financial troubles (which is going to happen when you combine COIN wars with corruption and inefficiencies) and (2) America's weird idea of a 'positive relationship.'

But despite that, the PAF is probably spending every spare moment it has trying to work on a package that involves at least 3 squadrons of additional F-16s (new and used) and associated weapons, especially AIM-9X.

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## araz

Mark Sien said:


> Indonesia was able to get surplus F-16C/Ds as well as near Block-52 upgrades for around $31.25mn a fighter. As far as modern fighters of this calibre go, the PAF isn't going to get better deals, not unless someone decides to literally dump Mirage 2000-5/-9s for around that much, which is *absolutely not going to happen*.
> 
> Unfortunately the only drawbacks for the PAF (preventing it from even getting new F-16s) are (1) Pakistan's financial troubles (which is going to happen when you combine COIN wars with corruption and inefficiencies) and (2) America's weird idea of a 'positive relationship.'
> 
> But despite that, the PAF is probably spending every spare moment it has trying to work on a package that involves at least 3 squadrons of additional F-16s (new and used) and associated weapons, especially AIM-9X.


Someone in 2007 told me that the package of 58M2K5s ex French that was negotiated with plenty of spares with the french were for 20 million $ per plane. Iam merely repeating what I have been told.
Your assumption of 3 squadrons is probably on the mark as it would obviate the need for anyother aircraft other than upgraded JFTs and even for that there wont be any significant hurry. However as you have mentioned US policy at the moment and our economy are hindrances to such a deal. We will need to wait till 2017 to find out what is coming our way. Beyond that if the US leaning towards our neighbours increases anymore we may have to resort to either a plan B or increasingly rely on later versions of JFT to do the job. This maynot be ideal but I think our economic condition is unlikely to improve till 2020 or later.

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## Quwa

araz said:


> Someone in 2007 told me that the package of 58M2K5s ex French that was negotiated with plenty of spares with the french were for 20 million $ per plane. Iam merely repeating what I have been told.
> Your assumption of 3 squadrons is probably on the mark as it would obviate the need for anyother aircraft other than upgraded JFTs and even for that there wont be any significant hurry. However as you have mentioned US policy at the moment and our economy are hindrances to such a deal. We will need to wait till 2017 to find out what is coming our way. Beyond that if the US leaning towards our neighbours increases anymore we may have to resort to either a plan B or increasingly rely on later versions of JFT to do the job. This maynot be ideal but I think our economic condition is unlikely to improve till 2020 or later.


The Plan B, to be honest, is to take whatever money's left and save it for J-31. The PAF will not pursue any other option unless it somehow comes upon a miraculous economic surge, in which case it would gun for a 4.5 gen fighter to hold the fort down until the J-31 is ready. But unfortunately, that isn't going to happen, so it is F-16s or nothing. We have the JF-17 to basically fill in the gaps where it matters, and though the lack of a front edge fighter will be felt, it won't be anywhere near as painful as the weight Pressler left behind in the 1990s. PAF can cope.

But yes, it is insane how Pakistan plunging itself in an internal war and enabling the U.S to successfully hold Afghanistan didn't translate into it at least being able to freely buy surplus F-16s and stockpile them at will. Countries that do less get more. There are times where it might have been prudent (and still prudent) to actually point the stick at the U.S, i.e. seal the border and tell them they're on their own from this point on wards, maybe then they'll release F-16s


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## Bilal Khan 777

Capt.Popeye said:


> Because they are cheaper.



It is bigger than that. After the MLU, PAF is unique to hold one of the biggest rotable and spare inventory of the Block 15 circa aircraft. While others will struggle with obsolescence, we have a huge stock of material which can be used to support the F16 from that time. It makes sense for PAF to get older F16s.


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## MastanKhan

Mark Sien said:


> The Plan B, to be honest, is to take whatever money's left and save it for J-31. The PAF will not pursue any other option unless it somehow comes upon a miraculous economic surge, in which case it would gun for a 4.5 gen fighter to hold the fort down until the J-31 is ready. But unfortunately, that isn't going to happen, so it is F-16s or nothing. We have the JF-17 to basically fill in the gaps where it matters, and though the lack of a front edge fighter will be felt, it won't be anywhere near as painful as the weight Pressler left behind in the 1990s. PAF can cope.
> 
> But yes, it is insane how Pakistan plunging itself in an internal war and enabling the U.S to successfully hold Afghanistan didn't translate into it at least being able to freely buy surplus F-16s and stockpile them at will. Countries that do less get more. There are times where it might have been prudent (and still prudent) to actually point the stick at the U.S, i.e. seal the border and tell them they're on their own from this point on wards, maybe then they'll release F-16s




Hi,

Actually there is lot more that is happening in the procurement department other than the F 16 and JF17---. The information will be released when the first batch of aircraft are available or delivered.


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## nomi007

*why Wikipedia is showing
99 f-16s in paf inventory*


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## aliyusuf

fanboy exuberance!


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## Maarkhoor

nomi007 said:


> *Officers of the Chilean Air Force advise Colombia Air Force not to buy second hand F-16s*
> 
> *but paf is getting more used f-16s
> why*


Our PAF is in love with amreekazzz weaponary...



nomi007 said:


> *why Wikipedia is showing
> 99 f-16s in paf inventory*


Login and edit Wikipedia make it 199 its Wikipedia.


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## Windjammer

Supporting a JHMCS, a Block-52 pilot gives the thumbs up.

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## Maarkhoor

Windjammer said:


> Supporting a JHMCS, a Block-52 pilot gives the thumbs up.


I want to see this feature on JF-17


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## fatman17

araz said:


> Someone in 2007 told me that the package of 58M2K5s ex French that was negotiated with plenty of spares with the french were for 20 million $ per plane. Iam merely repeating what I have been told.
> Your assumption of 3 squadrons is probably on the mark as it would obviate the need for anyother aircraft other than upgraded JFTs and even for that there wont be any significant hurry. However as you have mentioned US policy at the moment and our economy are hindrances to such a deal. We will need to wait till 2017 to find out what is coming our way. Beyond that if the US leaning towards our neighbours increases anymore we may have to resort to either a plan B or increasingly rely on later versions of JFT to do the job. This maynot be ideal but I think our economic condition is unlikely to improve till 2020 or later.



Mirage 2000 was offered at $ 60 mill per copy. Main reason for failure to obtain these aircraft.

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## fatman17

nomi007 said:


> *why Wikipedia is showing
> 99 f-16s in paf inventory*



Bcuz wiki is not accurate


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## fatman17

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> It is bigger than that. After the MLU, PAF is unique to hold one of the biggest rotable and spare inventory of the Block 15 circa aircraft. While others will struggle with obsolescence, we have a huge stock of material which can be used to support the F16 from that time. It makes sense for PAF to get older F16s.



Replicating the Mirage strategy here also


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## black-hawk_101

Any chances of PAF buying some more new f16


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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> Bcuz wiki is not accurate




so how many f-16s we have


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## aliyusuf

1983-87 --> 40 F-16 Block-15s (28As and 12Bs) --> lost 8 in accidents --> 32 remain (all MLU-ed)
2005-07 --> 14 F-16 Block15OCUs (3As and 11Bs) --> lost 1 in accident --> 13 remain (all MLU-ed)
2008-10 --> 18 F-16 Block-52+ (12Cs and 6Ds)
2014 --> 13 F-16 Block-15ADF(Either 11As and 2Bs or 9As and 4Bs)

So total F-16 fleet = 32 +13 + 18 +13 = 76

Operated from Sqd 5, 9, 11 and 19.

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## ecostar

Pakistan Air Force will get six F-16 C/D Block 52+ fighter jets from United States today. This will bring the total number of F-16 C/D Block 52+ fighter jets with Pakistan Air Force to 12. Remaining six F-16 C/D Block 52+ will arrive in Pakistan next month. Pakistani government have taken up the option of another 18 F-16 C/D Block 52+ which will bring the total number of F-16 C/D Block 52+ fighter jets in PAF to 36.
These aircrafts are equipped with the AIM-120 C-5 AMRAAM beyond the visual range missiles to deal with the threats beyond the range of short range missiles. This makes F-16 C/D Block 52+ first air craft in Pakistani service that is equipped with such capability. By the end of 2010, JF-17 Thunders with SD-10A BVRAAM will join the F-16 C/D Block 52+ fighter jets to provide airdefense with long range BVRAAMs.
AIM-120 AMRAAM is the most advance western missile in its category which was designed as an all-weather, active radar-guided missile to destroy the threats beyond the line of sight. Fist version of AIM-120 was designated AIM-120A and an improved version was developed from 1989 called AIM-120B. AIM-120 C was developed with a reduced wing and fin span to fit inside the internal weapons carriage on the F-22 Raptor stealth aircraft.
Improver version called AIM-120 C-5 was tested for the first time in 1998. This version of AMRAAM was tested with dual-mode passive and active radar seeker that allowed the AIM-120 C-5 AMRAAM to detect and home onto enemy aircraft radar transmissions. The AIM-120 AMRAAM missile is 3.65 m long, has a body diameter of 178 mm, a fin span of 0.63 m and a launch weight of 157 kg. The fixed central wings have a span of 0.53 m and a 22 kg HE directed fragmentation warhead. AIM-120 C-5 AMRAAM missile has a reduced wing span of 0.445 m, fin span of 0.447 m and has a larger motor.
Serial numbers of the F-16 C/D Block 52+ which will arrive today are
10803
10907
10908
10904
10909
10910

PAF’s F-16 C/D block 52+ are equipped with the AN/APG-68 V (9) radar which offers much improved air-to-air defense and air-to-ground attack capabilities. AN/APG-68 V(9) radar can detect targets at much longer ranges as detection range is increased by 30 percent over the previous versions of the radar.
In ground attack role it offers two-foot resolution in new Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) mode. This will allow PAF to use these newly purchased F-16 C/D block 52+ fighter jets in all weather delivery of precision guided weapons from the standoff ranges.
news from pkmr.blogspot


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## araz

ecostar said:


> Pakistan Air Force will get six F-16 C/D Block 52+ fighter jets from United States today. This will bring the total number of F-16 C/D Block 52+ fighter jets with Pakistan Air Force to 12. Remaining six F-16 C/D Block 52+ will arrive in Pakistan next month. Pakistani government have taken up the option of another 18 F-16 C/D Block 52+ which will bring the total number of F-16 C/D Block 52+ fighter jets in PAF to 36.
> These aircrafts are equipped with the AIM-120 C-5 AMRAAM beyond the visual range missiles to deal with the threats beyond the range of short range missiles. This makes F-16 C/D Block 52+ first air craft in Pakistani service that is equipped with such capability. By the end of 2010, JF-17 Thunders with SD-10A BVRAAM will join the F-16 C/D Block 52+ fighter jets to provide airdefense with long range BVRAAMs.
> AIM-120 AMRAAM is the most advance western missile in its category which was designed as an all-weather, active radar-guided missile to destroy the threats beyond the line of sight. Fist version of AIM-120 was designated AIM-120A and an improved version was developed from 1989 called AIM-120B. AIM-120 C was developed with a reduced wing and fin span to fit inside the internal weapons carriage on the F-22 Raptor stealth aircraft.
> Improver version called AIM-120 C-5 was tested for the first time in 1998. This version of AMRAAM was tested with dual-mode passive and active radar seeker that allowed the AIM-120 C-5 AMRAAM to detect and home onto enemy aircraft radar transmissions. The AIM-120 AMRAAM missile is 3.65 m long, has a body diameter of 178 mm, a fin span of 0.63 m and a launch weight of 157 kg. The fixed central wings have a span of 0.53 m and a 22 kg HE directed fragmentation warhead. AIM-120 C-5 AMRAAM missile has a reduced wing span of 0.445 m, fin span of 0.447 m and has a larger motor.
> Serial numbers of the F-16 C/D Block 52+ which will arrive today are
> 10803
> 10907
> 10908
> 10904
> 10909
> 10910
> 
> PAF’s F-16 C/D block 52+ are equipped with the AN/APG-68 V (9) radar which offers much improved air-to-air defense and air-to-ground attack capabilities. AN/APG-68 V(9) radar can detect targets at much longer ranges as detection range is increased by 30 percent over the previous versions of the radar.
> In ground attack role it offers two-foot resolution in new Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) mode. This will allow PAF to use these newly purchased F-16 C/D block 52+ fighter jets in all weather delivery of precision guided weapons from the standoff ranges.
> news from pkmr.blogspot


A good copy paste job but terribly out of date. This pertains to the first sale of F16s Bl.52s and talks of delivery of ACs 7-12. As to whether we are going to get more there is always hope but to the best of my knowledge nothing has been confirmed yet.
Araz


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## monitor

A Medley of Junaid Jamshed songs & "Tum hi se ae Mujahido" re-sung by Soch Band.
Video has mostly footage from Mushaf AB, Sargodha & PAF Academy Risalpur.

via PAF DPR.

... See More
0:00/4:51




"}" data-reactid=".d">Like Comment Share

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## Basel

razgriz19 said:


> well PAF already has crap ton of AIM-9s, they can't just dump them if they're still fairly new. Those 200 were just follow on order for the new F-16s. One reason I can think of is that US started taking deliveries around 2005, and this was around the time deal was done for the block 52 F-16s. Same dilemma as AH-1Z viper, US first policy.
> International users have just recently started using AIM-9X. We can get them if we order now. I'm sure its on the cards since they're using JHMCS on most f-16s. That was the main purpose of owning a JHMCS.
> Maybe timing is not right at the moment. We can order equipment related to ground strikes, but ordering a 5th generation missiles would definitely raise eyebrows everywhere. Not to mention India will get a heart attack.




If that was the case then why PAF did not went for new westerns WVR missiles like IRIS-T or ASRAAM or Mica-IR??



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Actually there is lot more that is happening in the procurement department other than the F 16 and JF17---. The information will be released when the first batch of aircraft are available or delivered.



What you have info about that procurement option platforms?? please share


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## Quwa

black-hawk_101 said:


> Any chances of PAF buying some more new f16


Possibly, assuming the PAF wants to spend at least $1bn on a squadron of new built planes. But it could get surplus C/D and Block-52 level upgrade kits for $30-35mn a plane, and I think that is the route PAF would prefer going. Ideally 18 new Block-52+ and 36~54 surplus upgraded C/Ds.

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## MastanKhan

Basel said:


> If that was the case then why PAF did not went for new westerns WVR missiles like IRIS-T or ASRAAM or Mica-IR??
> 
> 
> 
> What you have info about that procurement option platforms?? please share



Hi,

@Viper0011. has given out a very detailed information about the procurement. Thank him for what he did----.

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## Pak47

Not claiming it's legit, but wiki's claiming 14 additional block 52 aircraft for a total of 99. Anything cooking?


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## fatman17

Pak47 said:


> Not claiming it's legit, but wiki's claiming 14 additional block 52 aircraft for a total of 99. Anything cooking?



Wiki is incorrect as usual

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## monitor

PAF F-16A Block 15 being Pushed by F100-PW-229 EEP Engine, With Full Afterburner Producing 29,160 lbf (129.7 kN) amounts of Thrust. @Defence.pk

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## syed_yusuf

f-16 blk15 does not have 29,160 lbf engine


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## HRK

syed_yusuf said:


> f-16 blk15 does not have 29,160 lbf engine

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## Side-Winder



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## umair86

F-100-PW-220E produces thrust of max 23,770. F-16A/B Block 15s have a lighter airframe and 220E gives it enough power to have thrust to weight ratio 1.0. 229EEP are of different breed they produce well over 29k lbs thrust for F-16C/D as they have much heavier airframe.

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## nomi007

new eagles of PAF
Two-seater F-16B Fighting Falcon serial number 92622 and single-seater F-16A Fighting Falcon serial number 92731 were delivered to Pakistan Air Force (PAF) in July/August 2015.

The two F-16s on their delivery flight to Pakistan were seen at Lajes Field, Azores, Portugal, in July/August 2015.

Following photo shows F-16B Fighting Falcon serial number 92622 departing from Lajes on August 3, 2015, for delivery flight to Pakistan. Pakistan flag on vertical stabiliser is covered with temporary USAF roundel sticker
Delivery of these F-16s to Pakistan was delayed due to military sanctions imposed by USA in 1990s.











source of news is 

imran sir
senior member of defence.pk

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## Paksanity

nomi007 said:


> new eagles of PAF
> Two-seater F-16B Fighting Falcon serial number 92622 and single-seater F-16A Fighting Falcon serial number 92731 were delivered to Pakistan Air Force (PAF) in July/August 2015.
> 
> The two F-16s on their delivery flight to Pakistan were seen at Lajes Field, Azores, Portugal, in July/August 2015.
> 
> Following photo shows F-16B Fighting Falcon serial number 92622 departing from Lajes on August 3, 2015, for delivery flight to Pakistan. Pakistan flag on vertical stabiliser is covered with temporary USAF roundel sticker
> Delivery of these F-16s to Pakistan was delayed due to military sanctions imposed by USA in 1990s.
> View attachment 256679
> View attachment 256680
> View attachment 256681
> 
> 
> source of news is
> 
> imran sir
> senior member of defence.pk



PAF markings on the wing can be made out, I think. That's green and white circle, right? What's going on here?


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## nomi007

hope paf will not change color scheme of single-seater F-16A


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## Sulman Badshah

nomi007 said:


> hope paf will not change color scheme of single-seater F-16A


We are getting scheme in Grey scale ...


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## ShamF1516

Wikipedia is now stating the PAF has 102 F-16's. :o ...Someone should edit that and put the right number...


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## HRK

Just to keep the record straight regarding the delivery of 2 F-16s
Quote:
These are not *Extra Birds *but are '*the part of Initially Authorised 14*' F-16 (during the period of 2005 till 2008) only 12 were delivered earlier the rest of two were for some reason were not delivered .... following is the EDA Database screenshot




*so in short its not going to increase the number of F-16 fleet of PAF *
USAF delivered pakistan two embargoed Pakistani F-16s | Page 8
Unquote


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## aliyusuf

HRK said:


> Just to keep the record straight regarding the delivery of 2 F-16s
> Quote:
> These are not *Extra Birds *but are '*the part of Initially Authorised 14*' F-16 (during the period of 2005 till 2008) only 12 were delivered earlier the rest of two were for some reason were not delivered .... following is the EDA Database screenshot
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *so in short its not going to increase the number of F-16 fleet of PAF *
> USAF delivered pakistan two embargoed Pakistani F-16s | Page 8
> Unquote



So is that snapshot taken after the 2 new additions arrived on August 5 or before?


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## HRK

aliyusuf said:


> So is that snapshot taken after the 2 new additions arrived on August 5 or before?



I Download this excel file from DSCA site at *11:00 PM tonight *but this database file contain only the record of deliveries till *January 05, 2015* .... so *its the latest available but not up todate record*


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## aliyusuf

HRK said:


> I Download this excel file from DSCA site at *11:00 PM tonight *but this database file contain only the record of deliveries till *January 05, 2015* .... so *its the latest *but *not up to date record*



So after the next update occurs then we will get a clearer picture about this and whether or not the list updates these two entries. If not then these 2 are coming from another source. But then the question would arise that whether back in 2005-to-2007 seemingly the undelivered 2 were replaced by 2 planes from another source also and didn't get reflected here. Because back in 2007-08 all the people who have been on the "know" about all this on this forum, and the other Pakistani forums had reported all 14 had been delivered. Not sure though, they could have made a mistake. But we will have a better understanding when this snapshot gets the next update.

Thanks.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

How many MLU kits did Pakistan ended requesting back in the Musharaf day?

I was reading in some areas close to 60 kits were requested for MLU and spare engines in quantity

While we only had 36 fighters to upgrade via MLU kits

Do we have count on the kits / engine (Spare)?


We did also purchased more engines / radar in individual package seperate from MLU package?


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## hassan1



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## Shabi1

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 257077



This shows that now even the MLUed F-16s have JHMCS for the pilot.


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## Sulman Badshah

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 257077





Shabi1 said:


> This shows that now even the MLUed F-16s have JHMCS for the pilot.


This also shows that two Embargoed F16 have been delivered .. markings 92622 in Pakistani marking


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## aliyusuf

JHMCS is a helmet mounted display and cueing system. It displays all the information that can be displayed on the HUD directly onto the visor of the helmet. And if you have HOBS munitions, then this helmet system is pivotal in which the pilot can just turn his head and launch that HOBS weapon without having to turn fighter itself. This feature is how ever dependent on the seeker of that HOBS weapon. If the pilots view (left, right, up or down) is within the scope of the HOBS weapon's seeker's field of detection then the weapon will successfully launch home in on to the target. This primarily AFAIK is a WVR feature.

My question is what extra benefit is this helmet currently providing when we do not have a HOBS weapon?


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## Bratva

Windjammer said:


> Right guys, the news i have is that these two F-16s at Pakistan's request have had some highly sophisticated package installed in them. Since it was a Pakistan specified package hence it had to be implemented on a Pakistani platform.
> Thus these F-16s were held back to go through the test phase or what's called TVR.
> @Oscar @Horus @MastanKhan



Cable: 07ISLAMABAD4008_a

*REASSURING PAKISTAN ON THE F-16 SALE

Date:

2007 September 17, 12:09 (Monday)
*


*B. ISLAMABAD 3526 C. ISLAMABAD 3168 Classified By: Anne W. Patterson, for reasons 1.4 (b)(d) 1. (C) *

*Encrypted Software ------------------*

12. (S)* Additional Secretary MG Malik in his letter to DSCA cites as additional evidence of our lack of transparency the fact that the LOA did not contain provisions explaining the need for encrypted devices. He fears the U.S. will be able to limit the capability of the F-16s by withholding access to the cryptokeys*. 13. (S) Recommendation: We need to explain to the Pakistanis that the provision was in the LOA and many countries are subject to the same restrictions. *The Pakistanis do not fully understand our requirements for sharing encrypted devices and need to be reassured that the aircraft will still fly without the cryptokeys. A briefing for Air Marshal Tanvir and/or his staff could resolve this misunderstanding.*

*Link-16 ------- *

14. (S) When Pakistan signed the LOA, they were aware that ISLAMABAD 00004008 003 OF 003 the Link-16 command and control technology had not yet been approved for release to Pakistan but assumed it would occur in a timely fashion. T*he delay in approval concerns them. 15. (S) Recommendation: The Joint Chiefs of Staff has approved the release; the decision now rests with the National Security Agency. We understand that the Defense Intelligence Agency has some concerns about potential technology transfer, and CENTCOM is working to address those concerns. This issue needs to be resolved quickly. *

*Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) ---------------------------*

16. (S) *Pakistan was previously cleared for separate elements of DRFM; now they need approval for the whole package. USAF supports immediate release, but the Defense Technology Security Administration appears to have concerns. SAF/IA is meeting this week with DTSA to review the issue. *17. (C) Recommendation: This decision process needs to be accelerated. 18. (C) The National Disclosure Policy Committee will return to Pakistan in December to perform a security survey to confirm adequate Pakistani protection of U.S. classified information. T*anvir is eager to participate in this survey and is working to meet the security restrictions as stated in the LOA. We should make it clear to Tanvir that we can speed up the approval process of Link-16 and DRFM with enhanced cooperation on this survey. *


19. (C) We suggest Washington agencies address these issues as a package with Tanvir. Of particular concern to the Pakistanis is the completion of the mid-life upgrades in a third country. This can be resolved by U.S. engagement that reduces Pakistan's costs and involves Pakistani technicians in the third-country effort. PATTERSON 

Summary. In meetings with the Deputy Secretary last week, President Musharraf, Prime Minister Aziz and Foreign Secretary Khan told us the U.S. had violated the F-16 SIPDIS agreement with Pakistan. A series of misunderstandings and delays, including important ones on our part, has prompted Pakistan to cease payment, at least until these issues can be resolved. We know many in Washington are dismayed by what they consider a juvenile reaction on Pakistan's part. 

But it is hard to exaggerate the effect the failure of the F-16 sale would have on U.S. relations with Pakistan and on our allies in the Pakistani military. 

*While many of the issues are technical, they have now crossed into the political realm. Musharraf himself appears to be increasingly concerned about political fallout from unresolved issues with the sale. The upcoming visit of Air Chief Tanvir will offer a chance to address these topics. In our view, the outstanding F-16 related issues would more usefully be addressed as a package and not as discrete (and often confusing) technical and legal issues. *

We recommend the U.S. Government offer Pakistan assurances that the United States is committed to this sale, while reassuring the Air Chief that a number of the restrictions are not unique to Pakistan. End summary. 2. (C) During meetings last week with the Deputy Secretary (septels), President Musharraf, Prime Minister Aziz and Foreign Secretary Khan all raised concern about problems relating to the F-16 sale. Musharraf said that the Air Force believed the U.S. had "violated" the agreement intentionally and he urged that we resolve this problem before it undermined bilateral relations. Musharraf was particularly agitated about the F-16 sale during his September 16 meeting with CODEL Boehner, as he emphasized that the "man in the street" (i.e. voter) was aware of the previously failed F-16 sale, and now it looked as if "history was repeating itself." 

* 3. (C) The Prime Minister characterized the U.S. as "moving the goalposts" and confirmed what Defense Production Additional Secretary MG Tariq Salim Malik wrote in a September 1 letter to DSCA Director Admiral Wieringa, namely that Pakistan would cease making payments on this case until problems are resolved. * '

Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed reiterated his concerns to Office of Defense Representative MG Helmly on September 14. We understand the next payment was due September 15. (We also understand that, as a practical matter, there is a grace period of several weeks.) Need for Reassurance -------------------- 4. (C) The decision to pursue this $3 billion deal was difficult for Pakistan. Air Chief Marshal Tanvir overcame the Finance Minister's concerns about the cost of the planes and the diversion of spending from social programs. Tanvir's military colleagues warned him the U.S. would repeat the Pressler Amendment sanctions experience of the l990s when the Pakistanis paid for F-16s that were never delivered. Now, the Air Chief, who is pro-American, is embarrassed and weakened by the perception among his colleagues that the sale -- for whatever reason -- will not be successful. 

Much of his aggressive demeanor relates to his weakened standing. Moreover, President Musharraf views this sale as a symbol of a long-term U.S. commitment to Pakistan and a singular benefit of his alliance with us. 5. (C) From our standpoint, the sale was a strategic decision to rebuild relations with a nation critical to the war on terror, despite Congressional and technology transfer concerns. The notification that the MLU upgrade could not be performed in Pakistan was made just as the press reported the findings of the NIE and the passage of 9/11 Commission recommendations with its Pakistan-related provisions. 

*Our notification to the Pakistanis of this decision a year after it was resolved in Washington has further clouded the picture. Much of the Pakistani mistrust is based on incomplete understanding of our security assistance process, and an assumption they are being singled out for specific ISLAMABAD 00004008 002 OF 003 conditions on the F-16 sale. We can effectively address these concerns and should do so quickly*. 


Problems & Recommendations -------------------------- 6. (C)* In September 2006, Pakistan signed an LOA to purchase 18 new F-16 fighter aircraft; it also agreed to purchase 34 MLU kits, with the option of buying an additional 26 to support the used Excess Defense Articles (EDA) USAF planes being provided to them. Four EDA F-16s have been delivered; delivery of the new planes is scheduled to begin in January 2010. Mid-Life Upgrades ----------------- 7. (C) In August 2007 (ref C), Ambassador advised the Air Chief Marshal of a letter signed by the Secretary in July 2006 assuring the HIRC (now HFAC) and SFRC Chairmen that the MLUs would not be performed in Pakistan. At the time the LOA was signed on September 30, 2006, neither post nor Pakistan was aware of the Secretary's letter. The LOA does not state that the MLUs can be performed in Pakistan, but Pakistan inferred that the clause relating to U.S. training of Pakistani technicians meant that the MLUs would occur in Pakistan. 8. (C) The Deputy Secretary in his meetings made it clear that the Secretary's decision was final. But we need to provide the background of our decision and smooth the way for helping Pakistan perform the MLUs in a third country. Pakistan cannot carry out the upgrades elsewhere without our help.*


9. (C) Recommendation: (1) As a follow-up to their meeting, a message from the Deputy Secretary to President Musharraf reassuring him of our commitment to this sale and pledging to work together to resolve outstanding concerns. This should be delivered before the September visit to Washington of Air Chief Marshal Tanvir. (2) We thank DSCA Director Admiral Wieringa for his offer to meet with Tanvir and recommend he explain our decision and offer specific DCSA assistance in helping the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) evaluate its options and implement its decision on where to perform the MLUs. Basing ------

10. (C) Reftels explain in detail the problems of the proposed security plan for basing the new F-16s in Pakistan. Simply put, the requirement to base separately the F-16s and foreign-origin SAR and support aircraft is impractical and will undermine the safety and effectiveness of air operations. 11. (C) Recommendation: Use Air Chief Marshal Tanvir's visit to brief key Congressional interlocutors and build support for Congressional approval of alternative basing proposals that both protect U.S. technology and allow the PAF reasonable air operations.


@Oscar @HRK @Sulman Badshah

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## Sulman Badshah

Bratva said:


> an additional 26 to support the used Excess Defense Articles (EDA)


So 26 MLU kits was purchased to support the EDA articles ... and how many we have received (14 of them so far?? )


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## fatman17

no further deliveries of F16s have taken place.


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## Imran Khan

fatman17 said:


> no further deliveries of F16s have taken place.


then boss please explain to us serial numbers 
92622 and 92731

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## fatman17

Imran Khan said:


> then boss please explain to us serial numbers
> 92622 and 92731



need more official evidence.

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## Windjammer

PAF F-16 in formation with a Turkish air force jet.

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## Pinnacle

Bratva said:


> Cable: 07ISLAMABAD4008_a
> 
> *REASSURING PAKISTAN ON THE F-16 SALE
> 
> Date:
> 
> 2007 September 17, 12:09 (Monday)
> *
> 
> 
> *B. ISLAMABAD 3526 C. ISLAMABAD 3168 Classified By: Anne W. Patterson, for reasons 1.4 (b)(d) 1. (C) *
> 
> *Encrypted Software ------------------*
> 
> 12. (S)* Additional Secretary MG Malik in his letter to DSCA cites as additional evidence of our lack of transparency the fact that the LOA did not contain provisions explaining the need for encrypted devices. He fears the U.S. will be able to limit the capability of the F-16s by withholding access to the cryptokeys*. 13. (S) Recommendation: We need to explain to the Pakistanis that the provision was in the LOA and many countries are subject to the same restrictions. *The Pakistanis do not fully understand our requirements for sharing encrypted devices and need to be reassured that the aircraft will still fly without the cryptokeys. A briefing for Air Marshal Tanvir and/or his staff could resolve this misunderstanding.*
> 
> *Link-16 ------- *
> 
> 14. (S) When Pakistan signed the LOA, they were aware that ISLAMABAD 00004008 003 OF 003 the Link-16 command and control technology had not yet been approved for release to Pakistan but assumed it would occur in a timely fashion. T*he delay in approval concerns them. 15. (S) Recommendation: The Joint Chiefs of Staff has approved the release; the decision now rests with the National Security Agency. We understand that the Defense Intelligence Agency has some concerns about potential technology transfer, and CENTCOM is working to address those concerns. This issue needs to be resolved quickly. *
> 
> *Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) ---------------------------*
> 
> 16. (S) *Pakistan was previously cleared for separate elements of DRFM; now they need approval for the whole package. USAF supports immediate release, but the Defense Technology Security Administration appears to have concerns. SAF/IA is meeting this week with DTSA to review the issue. *17. (C) Recommendation: This decision process needs to be accelerated. 18. (C) The National Disclosure Policy Committee will return to Pakistan in December to perform a security survey to confirm adequate Pakistani protection of U.S. classified information. T*anvir is eager to participate in this survey and is working to meet the security restrictions as stated in the LOA. We should make it clear to Tanvir that we can speed up the approval process of Link-16 and DRFM with enhanced cooperation on this survey. *
> 
> 
> 19. (C) We suggest Washington agencies address these issues as a package with Tanvir. Of particular concern to the Pakistanis is the completion of the mid-life upgrades in a third country. This can be resolved by U.S. engagement that reduces Pakistan's costs and involves Pakistani technicians in the third-country effort. PATTERSON
> 
> Summary. In meetings with the Deputy Secretary last week, President Musharraf, Prime Minister Aziz and Foreign Secretary Khan told us the U.S. had violated the F-16 SIPDIS agreement with Pakistan. A series of misunderstandings and delays, including important ones on our part, has prompted Pakistan to cease payment, at least until these issues can be resolved. We know many in Washington are dismayed by what they consider a juvenile reaction on Pakistan's part.
> 
> But it is hard to exaggerate the effect the failure of the F-16 sale would have on U.S. relations with Pakistan and on our allies in the Pakistani military.
> 
> *While many of the issues are technical, they have now crossed into the political realm. Musharraf himself appears to be increasingly concerned about political fallout from unresolved issues with the sale. The upcoming visit of Air Chief Tanvir will offer a chance to address these topics. In our view, the outstanding F-16 related issues would more usefully be addressed as a package and not as discrete (and often confusing) technical and legal issues. *
> 
> We recommend the U.S. Government offer Pakistan assurances that the United States is committed to this sale, while reassuring the Air Chief that a number of the restrictions are not unique to Pakistan. End summary. 2. (C) During meetings last week with the Deputy Secretary (septels), President Musharraf, Prime Minister Aziz and Foreign Secretary Khan all raised concern about problems relating to the F-16 sale. Musharraf said that the Air Force believed the U.S. had "violated" the agreement intentionally and he urged that we resolve this problem before it undermined bilateral relations. Musharraf was particularly agitated about the F-16 sale during his September 16 meeting with CODEL Boehner, as he emphasized that the "man in the street" (i.e. voter) was aware of the previously failed F-16 sale, and now it looked as if "history was repeating itself."
> 
> * 3. (C) The Prime Minister characterized the U.S. as "moving the goalposts" and confirmed what Defense Production Additional Secretary MG Tariq Salim Malik wrote in a September 1 letter to DSCA Director Admiral Wieringa, namely that Pakistan would cease making payments on this case until problems are resolved. * '
> 
> Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed reiterated his concerns to Office of Defense Representative MG Helmly on September 14. We understand the next payment was due September 15. (We also understand that, as a practical matter, there is a grace period of several weeks.) Need for Reassurance -------------------- 4. (C) The decision to pursue this $3 billion deal was difficult for Pakistan. Air Chief Marshal Tanvir overcame the Finance Minister's concerns about the cost of the planes and the diversion of spending from social programs. Tanvir's military colleagues warned him the U.S. would repeat the Pressler Amendment sanctions experience of the l990s when the Pakistanis paid for F-16s that were never delivered. Now, the Air Chief, who is pro-American, is embarrassed and weakened by the perception among his colleagues that the sale -- for whatever reason -- will not be successful.
> 
> Much of his aggressive demeanor relates to his weakened standing. Moreover, President Musharraf views this sale as a symbol of a long-term U.S. commitment to Pakistan and a singular benefit of his alliance with us. 5. (C) From our standpoint, the sale was a strategic decision to rebuild relations with a nation critical to the war on terror, despite Congressional and technology transfer concerns. The notification that the MLU upgrade could not be performed in Pakistan was made just as the press reported the findings of the NIE and the passage of 9/11 Commission recommendations with its Pakistan-related provisions.
> 
> *Our notification to the Pakistanis of this decision a year after it was resolved in Washington has further clouded the picture. Much of the Pakistani mistrust is based on incomplete understanding of our security assistance process, and an assumption they are being singled out for specific ISLAMABAD 00004008 002 OF 003 conditions on the F-16 sale. We can effectively address these concerns and should do so quickly*.
> 
> 
> Problems & Recommendations -------------------------- 6. (C)* In September 2006, Pakistan signed an LOA to purchase 18 new F-16 fighter aircraft; it also agreed to purchase 34 MLU kits, with the option of buying an additional 26 to support the used Excess Defense Articles (EDA) USAF planes being provided to them. Four EDA F-16s have been delivered; delivery of the new planes is scheduled to begin in January 2010. Mid-Life Upgrades ----------------- 7. (C) In August 2007 (ref C), Ambassador advised the Air Chief Marshal of a letter signed by the Secretary in July 2006 assuring the HIRC (now HFAC) and SFRC Chairmen that the MLUs would not be performed in Pakistan. At the time the LOA was signed on September 30, 2006, neither post nor Pakistan was aware of the Secretary's letter. The LOA does not state that the MLUs can be performed in Pakistan, but Pakistan inferred that the clause relating to U.S. training of Pakistani technicians meant that the MLUs would occur in Pakistan. 8. (C) The Deputy Secretary in his meetings made it clear that the Secretary's decision was final. But we need to provide the background of our decision and smooth the way for helping Pakistan perform the MLUs in a third country. Pakistan cannot carry out the upgrades elsewhere without our help.*
> 
> 
> 9. (C) Recommendation: (1) As a follow-up to their meeting, a message from the Deputy Secretary to President Musharraf reassuring him of our commitment to this sale and pledging to work together to resolve outstanding concerns. This should be delivered before the September visit to Washington of Air Chief Marshal Tanvir. (2) We thank DSCA Director Admiral Wieringa for his offer to meet with Tanvir and recommend he explain our decision and offer specific DCSA assistance in helping the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) evaluate its options and implement its decision on where to perform the MLUs. Basing ------
> 
> 10. (C) Reftels explain in detail the problems of the proposed security plan for basing the new F-16s in Pakistan. Simply put, the requirement to base separately the F-16s and foreign-origin SAR and support aircraft is impractical and will undermine the safety and effectiveness of air operations. 11. (C) Recommendation: Use Air Chief Marshal Tanvir's visit to brief key Congressional interlocutors and build support for Congressional approval of alternative basing proposals that both protect U.S. technology and allow the PAF reasonable air operations.
> 
> 
> @Oscar @HRK @Sulman Badshah


Great Article, One question, Do we have DRFM installed in our F-16s now?


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## Windjammer



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## HRK

danish falcon said:


> Great Article, One question, Do we have DRFM installed in our F-16s now?



Yes its come with externally mounted POD .... we have this capability available with our F-16s ....

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## Windjammer



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## fatman17

SU35 v. F16 

The U.S. Air Force does not use the F-16 primarily as an air superiority fighter—the air-to-air mission is secondary—the AESA is needed to keep the venerable jet relevant. With an AESA, the F-16 could probably hold its own against the Su-35 at longer ranges—but it would still be a challenge.

At shorter ranges, it comes down to pilot skill and the performance of each jet’s high off-boresight missiles. The advent of missiles like the R-73 and AIM-9X have turned visual range fights into mutually assured destruction scenarios. Mutual kills are not uncommon during training sorties. While the Su-35’s thrust vectoring gives it an edge at very low speeds (mind you, low speeds mean a low energy state), it’s not an insurmountable problem for an expert F-16 pilot—who knows how to exploit his or her aircraft to the fullest—to overcome.

The bottom line is that the Su-35 and the other advanced Flankers are extremely capable aircraft. The Pentagon’s fourth-generation fighter fleet no longer enjoys a massive technological advantage as they did in years past. The United States must invest in next-generation fighters to replace the existing fleet as soon as possible.

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## hawksway4

India trains against F16 of Singapore. 
Isnt this a great leap forward for IAF


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## TOPGUN

hawksway4 said:


> India trains against F16 of Singapore.
> Isnt this a great leap forward for IAF




Singapore doesn't use the same combat tactics as PAF every country is has its own training . Plus PAF trains with other nations as well same could be said about IAF both AF's have a good decent idea of each others tactics .

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## Omega007

TOPGUN said:


> Singapore doesn't use the same combat tactics as PAF every country is has its own training . *Plus PAF trains with other nations as well same* could be said about IAF both AF's have a good decent idea of each others tactics .


True,only difference is that IAF have been training against the F16 Blk52s at a daily basis since 2007-8.


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## Myth_buster_1

Omega007 said:


> True,only difference is that IAF have been training against the F16 Blk52s at a daily basis since 2007-8.


IAF cant even train on SU-30MKI on daily bases because it is grounded on daily bases let alone train against F-16.... loser.

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## black-hawk_101

nomi007 said:


> new eagles of PAF
> Two-seater F-16B Fighting Falcon serial number 92622 and single-seater F-16A Fighting Falcon serial number 92731 were delivered to Pakistan Air Force (PAF) in July/August 2015.
> 
> The two F-16s on their delivery flight to Pakistan were seen at Lajes Field, Azores, Portugal, in July/August 2015.
> 
> Following photo shows F-16B Fighting Falcon serial number 92622 departing from Lajes on August 3, 2015, for delivery flight to Pakistan. Pakistan flag on vertical stabiliser is covered with temporary USAF roundel sticker
> Delivery of these F-16s to Pakistan was delayed due to military sanctions imposed by USA in 1990s.
> View attachment 256679
> View attachment 256680
> View attachment 256681
> 
> 
> source of news is
> 
> imran sir
> senior member of defence.pk



I think the 14 remaining F-16s are arriving from USA and also heard that 3 more F-16s arrived from Jordan as well.


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## Omega007

Myth_buster_1 said:


> IAF cant even train on SU-30MKI on daily bases because it is grounded on daily bases let alone train against F-16.... loser.



Easy there m8,hold on to high your horses.Now,to get on to the point,calling me a loser will not change the ground reality,boyo.By the way,the word you oughtta say was 'basis',not 'bases'!!
PS.Here are the evidence :
RSAF to use Indian airbase for F-16 training
&
India to Continue Extending Training Facilities to Singapore Air Force

Now suck on this Mr 'winner'.

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## volatile

Omega007 said:


> Calling me a loser will not change the ground the reality,boyo.By the way,the word your oughtta say was 'basis',not 'bases'!!


Did India Leased some F-16s ?


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## Omega007

volatile said:


> Did India Leased some F-16s ?



Check my above post.


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## TaimiKhan

*Thread not to be derailed with Vs India match. *

*Plz refrain from dick measuring contest*

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## aliyusuf

Omega007 said:


> By the way,the word *your oughtta say was 'basis',not 'bases'*!!



If we are being particular about spellings and grammar, the bold part should be phrased *"you ought to use 'basis' instead of 'bases'"*!.

First be flawless yourself and then point out other's mistakes.

No offence intended!


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## Omega007

aliyusuf said:


> If we are being particular about spellings and grammar, the bold part should be phrased *"you ought to use 'basis' instead of 'bases'"*!.
> 
> First be flawless yourself and then point out other's mistakes.
> 
> No offence intended!



None taken brother,rest assured.By the way,I ain't no grammar nazi,cause had I had I been one,I would have never intentionally used such casual chat lingo in the first place!!But what you need to keep in mind,that it did not in any way alter or affect the meaning of my statement,where as his use of 'bases' in place of 'basis' rendered his whole argument a pointless gibberish,see the difference here??You just can not compare both.



TaimiKhan said:


> *Thread not to be derailed with Vs India match. *
> 
> *Plz refrain from dick measuring contest*



Had no such intention,your country man went straight for personal attack and name calling.Anyway,I'm outta here.

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## volatile

ahaan so u mean to say SAF has dedicate F16 for India ?


Omega007 said:


> Check my above post.


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## Omega007

volatile said:


> ahaan so u mean to say SAF has dedicate F16 for India ?



It's not like that.Due to paucity of real estate in their own country,Singapore,they lease space in air bases of other countries,to station their assets.......you know,so that their opponents can not destroy their forces easily,since their country doesn't have any strategic depth.


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## syed_yusuf

Omega007 said:


> It's not like that.Due to paucity of real estate in their own country,Singapore,they lease space in air bases of other countries,to station their assets.......you know,so that their opponents can not destroy their forces easily,since their country doesn't have any strategic depth.



There is no SAF F-16 stationed in India or elsewhere except USA.


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## Omega007

syed_yusuf said:


> There is no SAF F-16 stationed in India or elsewhere except USA.



Live in denial mode as much as you want,that's none of my problems.But the truth is,a whole squadron of F16 Blk52+,20 of those,have been stationed in our Kalaikunda air force base since 2007.


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## HawkerHunter

is


black-hawk_101 said:


> I think the 14 remaining F-16s are arriving from USA and also heard that 3 more F-16s arrived from Jordan as well.


US is simply denying to give remaining F 16's. Additionally they are not signing deal for C 130 J Model.


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## syed_yusuf

Omega007 said:


> Live in denial mode as much as you want,that's none of my problems.But the truth is,a whole squadron of F16 Blk52+,20 of those,have been stationed in our Kalaikunda air force base since 2007.


show me some proof, picture, news release ect. I checked google earth did not found a proof.


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## volatile

So IAF is flying them ? 


Omega007 said:


> It's not like that.Due to paucity of real estate in their own country,Singapore,they lease space in air bases of other countries,to station their assets.......you know,so that their opponents can not destroy their forces easily,since their country doesn't have any strategic depth.


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## GURU DUTT

volatile said:


> So IAF is flying them ?


what makes you think we are not ?

we are not just flying them but practicing with singaporean pilots and israeli pilots and intructers for at least decade now so in short : we know all the strenth and weaknesses of Block52 F-16s and doing war games/exercises with them with the best (israelies)

and its just one of many trum cards india has


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## volatile

GURU DUTT said:


> what makes you think we are not ?
> 
> we are not just flying them but practicing with singaporean pilots and israeli pilots and intructers for at least decade now so in short : we know all the strenth and weaknesses of Block52 F-16s and doing war games/exercises with them with the best (israelies)
> 
> and its just one of many trum cards india has


Good Luck with your trump card


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## GURU DUTT

volatile said:


> Good Luck with your trump card


its not just one "card" but infact "cards" cheers mate


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## The Deterrent

syed_yusuf said:


> show me some proof, picture, news release ect. I checked google earth did not found a proof.

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## datalibdaz

GURU DUTT said:


> its not just one "card" but infact "cards" cheers mate


Stop with your ''_mental masturbation''....._Neither Singaporean nor Israelies have had any training with Pakistani F 16 pilots...IAF will hardly know the tactics and training PAF Pilots employ...From PAF Pilots you should always expect surprises...


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## GURU DUTT

datalibdaz said:


> Stop with your ''_mental masturbation''....._Neither Singaporean nor Israelies have had any training with Pakistani F 16 pilots...IAF will hardly know the tactics and training PAF Pilots employ...From PAF Pilots you should always expect surprises...


well we are doing owr training and exercises with singapreans and israelies for tackling the PAFs F-16s in a war situation for quite some time now just like we are doing regular exercises with american,british , french and russian air forces

whats worng in preapiring for the inevitable 

for your information isreali air force is second to none when it comes to having actual combat experience on enemy soil/airspace specially when it comes to the usage of F-16s

but no harm in denaying that how is that going to change anything  

now as for IAFs answer to devine PAF fighter pilots and there training and tactics they employ well your guess is as good as mine ..... cheers mate

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## datalibdaz

GURU DUTT said:


> well we are doing owr training and exercises with singapreans and israelies for tackling the PAFs F-16s in a war situation for quite some time now just like we are doing regular exercises with american,british , french and russian air forces
> 
> whats worng in preapiring for the inevitable
> 
> for your information isreali air force is second to none when it comes to having actual combat experience on enemy soil/airspace specially when it comes to the usage of F-16s
> 
> but no harm in denaying that how is that going to change anything
> 
> now as for IAFs answer to devine PAF fighter pilots and there training and tactics they employ well your guess is as good as mine ..... cheers mate


Ok Great!!!You scared us really......now shoo away...

Don't ruin this thread now.....


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## Donatello

GURU DUTT said:


> well we are doing owr training and exercises with singapreans and israelies for tackling the PAFs F-16s in a war situation for quite some time now just like we are doing regular exercises with american,british , french and russian air forces
> 
> whats worng in preapiring for the inevitable
> 
> for your information isreali air force is second to none when it comes to having actual combat experience on enemy soil/airspace specially when it comes to the usage of F-16s
> 
> but no harm in denaying that how is that going to change anything
> 
> now as for IAFs answer to devine PAF fighter pilots and there training and tactics they employ well your guess is as good as mine ..... cheers mate



...and PAF has enough DACT training with the Flankers.........

Guru, i thought a ban would've sorted your mind out, but i guess, once an Indian, always an Indian.

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## GURU DUTT

Donatello said:


> ...and PAF has enough DACT training with the Flankers.........
> 
> *Guru, i thought a ban would've sorted your mind out, but i guess, once an Indian, always an Indian*.


did i used bad language ? 

did i troll in any way ? 

did i made any personal or digoratorry remarks ? 

did i in any way tried to say anything against pakistani air force or armed forces ? 

so kindli explain me what i said was wrong it respect to your bolded part thansk

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## 45'22'

syed_yusuf said:


> show me some proof, picture, news release ect. I checked google earth did not found a proof.





volatile said:


> So IAF is flying them ?





The Deterrent said:


> View attachment 262058


India has been flying blk52s for long

IAF pilots flying F-16 blk 52+ in India!!

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## 45'22'

Myth_buster_1 said:


> And we have been flying UAE F-16 and Mirage2k ever since they were inducted... now suck on that.... RSAF has different doctrine then PAF so IAF has been learning the wrong stuff... lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No IAF does not know all the strength and weakness of F-16 because they are too dumb to even learn to fly their own planes and keep crashing so as a measure to save their sorry loser faces... they resort to grounding their planes.....


Stop making lame comments
@Oscar


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## GURU DUTT

Myth_buster_1 said:


> And we have been flying UAE F-16 and Mirage2k ever since they were inducted... now suck on that.... RSAF has different doctrine then PAF so IAF has been learning the wrong stuff... lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *No IAF does not know all the strength and weakness of F-16 because they are too dumb to even learn to fly their own planes and keep crashing so as a measure to save their sorry loser faces*... they resort to grounding their planes.....


good luck to you then.... i guess all apkistani hub bul watan PAF fanboys have no need to worry about IAF then... good luck

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## Donatello

GURU DUTT said:


> did i used bad language ?
> 
> did i troll in any way ?
> 
> did i made any personal or digoratorry remarks ?
> 
> did i in any way tried to say anything against pakistani air force or armed forces ?
> 
> so kindli explain me what i said was wrong it respect to your bolded part thansk



Guru, are you really that docile?


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## karakoram

Windjammer said:


>


Windjammer does our F-16s has mid air refueling system ?


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## Windjammer

Donatello said:


> Guru, are you really that docile?


Ignore him, he just needs attention.

@ topic, we all know how IAF performed in the wars, forget shooting wars, even in exercises, the IAF made highly exaggerated claims both during Red Flag and in in Indhra Dahnus 2015, only to ending up embarrassed and humiliated with other side revealing the truth....how many air force commanders go on national TV and start telling scores which turn out to be just false bravado ....but the Indians need all this to keep their tail up.



karakoram said:


> Windjammer does our F-16s has mid air refueling system ?

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## karakoram

Windjammer said:


> Ignore him, he just needs attention.
> 
> @ topic, we all know how IAF performed in the wars, forget shooting wars, even in exercises, the IAF made highly exaggerated claims both during Red Flag and in in Indhra Dahnus 2015, only to ending up embarrassed and humiliated with other side revealing the truth....how many air force commanders go on national TV and start telling scores which turn out to be just false bravado ....but the Indians need all this to keep their tail up.


Thanks mate


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## Viper0011.

45'22' said:


> India has been flying blk52s for long
> 
> IAF pilots flying F-16 blk 52+ in India!!



Just like the PAF pilots have had good flying experience with Mirage 2k, -15, SU-27 and SU-30 from China?

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## GURU DUTT

Viper0011. said:


> Just like the PAF pilots have had good flying experience with Mirage 2k, -15, SU-27 and SU-30 from China?


1. since when china had M2K 

2.okay that you have full acsess to chinese flankers and now know how they work and how to tackle them but that is under chinese conditions which are very diffrent from sub continent deu to diffrences in altitude and weather

3.we have that capability in india and both singaporean and israeli instructors are working since long to make there and owr preparation /battle tactics even more better 

i hope you know what i mean ..... cheers mate

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## Viper0011.

GURU DUTT said:


> what makes you think we are not ?
> 
> we are not just flying them but practicing with singaporean pilots and israeli pilots and intructers for at least decade now so in short : we know all the strenth and weaknesses of Block52 F-16s and doing war games/exercises with them with the best (israelies)
> and its just one of many trum cards india has



Ok.......so these are the pilots who told the Indian Government not to eff with Pakistan through trying to get into a limited war, because of the scary experience of capabilities these guys had flying the -16 against the SU-30's in house? 

I also heard that the Isreali -16's dominate every encounter, be it BVR or WVR simulation against Mirages and SU-30's. Israeli sources say that like the remainder of their experiences, they've maintained 1% loss against Indian top tier planes. Which is why India went to PakFa and Rafale. The SU's have yet to win a sizable engagement against the -16's.

On Singaporean pilots, these guys are, at best, like the Swedish Air-force, the got the nicer toys but don't have have any combat experience outside of NATO exercises since the WWII. So their flying of the -16 is like I'd drive a Ferrari, for fun only. But even in their case, the SU-30 hasn't been shown to "dominate" anything. The results are in -16's favor and sometime in SU's favor. 

Clearly explains why the jump from the SU-30 to Rafale or a 5th Gen platform. 

By the way, Pakistani pilots have flow from the Mig 29's, to SU-30's, Mirage 2000 and soon Rafales also as Egyptians are getting it. So both sides know everything about the other one's platforms. What is different and has kept India at bay, is the serious capability that the -16 offers and they still can't get to a constant 50% kill ratio, without losing a larger number of SU-30's!!!! 



GURU DUTT said:


> 1. since when china had M2K
> 
> 2.okay that you have full acsess to chinese flankers and now know how they work and how to tackle them but that is under chinese conditions which are very diffrent from sub continent deu to diffrences in altitude and weather
> 
> 3.we have that capability in india and both singaporean and israeli instructors are working since long to make there and owr preparation /battle tactics even more better
> 
> i hope you know what i mean ..... cheers mate



1) The UAE had Mirages and Pakisanis have flowing them in Combat Sorties during the second Gulf war in serious numbers!!!

2) PAF pilots have NOT only flown the SU-27 and SU-30 inside China only, they have ALSO flown these more than twice for a few weeks each inside Pakistan for exercises. For confidentiality and exercise's sake, the SU-30 was put on a far away FOB and was to act like an aggressor (Indo - Pak war scenario) , representing the "Red" force. And to counter it in exercises, the PAF used -16 alone, -16 with F-7 (larger numbers coming in from the Red force), the JFT alone, the JFT with F-7 (larger number coming in from the Red force).

3) If the Singaporeans and Isrealis are going to do everything for you, how about give them the plane and let them fight the PAF too  . Its like Moma Isreali AF bird feeding the baby IAF bird, teaching the baby bird how to fly,find food and eat it !!!! And IF you are getting tactics down from the Singaporeans, only God help you. Singaporean pilots are like Swedish pilots, haven't seen a conflict for 3 generations of pilots and the best thing they can do, is to escort Russian planes on and off, or do exercises with NATO, limited to simulations only!!!! And you want these Singaporean pilots to teach you "Tactics"!!! 

And that you can't win from the -16, even if you did these exercises for the next 10 years. Israeli's have maintained a 1% loss ratio against the Mirages and the SU-30's and thus, India's decision to go buy Rafale's and 5th gen from Russia. Speaks volume. 

There is a reason WHY the "limited warfare" didn't happen as post 2002 was the prime time to involve Pakistan into it as they rarely even had BVR's back then. But the IAF didn't do it because these SAME pilots and exercises, have provided the real truth to the Indian leadership. If you want to attack Pakistan, be ready to lose 50-100 SU-30's and Mirages. And the COST of that, isn't digestible to the Indians. Not to mention the mockery a trying to be "soup-o-powa" would get out of this across the globe!!


And I hope I explained to you what I MEAN....double cheers mate

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## GURU DUTT

Viper0011. said:


> Ok.......so these are the pilots who told the Indian Government not to eff with Pakistan through trying to get into a limited war, because of the scary experience of capabilities these guys had flying the -16 against the SU-30's in house?
> 
> I also heard that the Isreali -16's dominate every encounter, be it BVR or WVR simulation against Mirages and SU-30's. Israeli sources say that like the remainder of their experiences, they've maintained 1% loss against Indian top tier planes. Which is why India went to PakFa and Rafale. The SU's have yet to win a sizable engagement against the -16's.
> 
> On Singaporean pilots, these guys are, at best, like the Swedish Air-force, the got the nicer toys but don't have have any combat experience outside of NATO exercises since the WWII. So their flying of the -16 is like I'd drive a Ferrari, for fun only. But even in their case, the SU-30 hasn't been shown to "dominate" anything. The results are in -16's favor and sometime in SU's favor.
> 
> Clearly explains why the jump from the SU-30 to Rafale or a 5th Gen platform.
> 
> By the way, Pakistani pilots have flow from the Mig 29's, to SU-30's, Mirage 2000 and soon Rafales also as Egyptians are getting it. So both sides know everything about the other one's platforms. What is different and has kept India at bay, is the serious capability that the -16 offers and they still can't get to a constant 50% kill ratio, without losing a larger number of SU-30's!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 1) The UAE had Mirages and Pakisanis have flowing them in Combat Sorties during the second Gulf war in serious numbers!!!
> 
> 2) PAF pilots have NOT only flown the SU-27 and SU-30 inside China only, they have ALSO flown these more than twice for a few weeks each inside Pakistan for exercises. For confidentiality and exercise's sake, the SU-30 was put on a far away FOB and was to act like an aggressor (Indo - Pak war scenario) , representing the "Red" force. And to counter it in exercises, the PAF used -16 alone, -16 with F-7 (larger numbers coming in from the Red force), the JFT alone, the JFT with F-7 (larger number coming in from the Red force).
> 
> 3) If the Singaporeans and Isrealis are going to do everything for you, how about give them the plane and let them fight the PAF too  . Its like Moma Isreali AF bird feeding the baby IAF bird, teaching the baby bird how to fly,find food and eat it !!!! And IF you are getting tactics down from the Singaporeans, only God help you. Singaporean pilots are like Swedish pilots, haven't seen a conflict for 3 generations of pilots and the best thing they can do, is to escort Russian planes on and off, or do exercises with NATO, limited to simulations only!!!! And you want these Singaporean pilots to teach you "Tactics"!!!
> 
> And that you can't win from the -16, even if you did these exercises for the next 10 years. Israeli's have maintained a 1% loss ratio against the Mirages and the SU-30's and thus, India's decision to go buy Rafale's and 5th gen from Russia. Speaks volume.
> 
> There is a reason WHY the "limited warfare" didn't happen as post 2002 was the prime time to involve Pakistan into it as they rarely even had BVR's back then. But the IAF didn't do it because these SAME pilots and exercises, have provided the real truth to the Indian leadership. If you want to attack Pakistan, be ready to lose 50-100 SU-30's and Mirages. And the COST of that, isn't digestible to the Indians. Not to mention the mockery a trying to be "soup-o-powa" would get out of this across the globe!!
> 
> 
> And I hope I explained to you what I MEAN....double cheers mate


thing is its not 2002 and we know what you have and are constanlli working on owr doctroine just as you are working on yours and good luck with all your preprations

as for F-16 and your so called masterry over it and the dream that we will never be able to counter it all i can say is good luck ...... cheers mate

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## silent hawk

GURU DUTT said:


> thing is its not 2002 and we know what you have and are constanlli working on owr doctroine just as you are working on yours and good luck with all your preprations
> 
> as for F-16 and your so called masterry over it and the* dream* that we will never be able to counter it all i can say is good luck ...... cheers mate



It is not a dream. It is the mastery of our air crafts which foiled Indian designs in 2002






The real threat to IAF now is from its own public as they cannot continue to support an Airforce that has no practical use.

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## Myth_buster_1

GURU DUTT said:


> good luck to you then.... i guess all apkistani hub bul watan PAF fanboys have no need to worry about IAF then... good luck


as long as indians are in cockpit PAF needs not to worry just like we slaughtered IAF in 65 and 71...

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## danger007

Myth_buster_1 said:


> as long as indians are in cockpit PAF needs not to worry just like we slaughtered IAF in 65 and 71...


71????? i hope you are fine... any how all the best. ... believe whatever you wanted...

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## Imran Khan

danger007 said:


> 71????? i hope you are fine... any how all the best. ... believe whatever you wanted...

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## MastanKhan

Viper0011. said:


> Ok.......so these are the pilots who told the Indian Government not to eff with Pakistan through trying to get into a limited war, because of the scary experience of capabilities these guys had flying the -16 against the SU-30's in house?
> 
> I also heard that the Isreali -16's dominate every encounter, be it BVR or WVR simulation against Mirages and SU-30's. Israeli sources say that like the remainder of their experiences, they've maintained 1% loss against Indian top tier planes. Which is why India went to PakFa and Rafale. The SU's have yet to win a sizable engagement against the -16's.
> 
> On Singaporean pilots, these guys are, at best, like the Swedish Air-force, the got the nicer toys but don't have have any combat experience outside of NATO exercises since the WWII. So their flying of the -16 is like I'd drive a Ferrari, for fun only. But even in their case, the SU-30 hasn't been shown to "dominate" anything. The results are in -16's favor and sometime in SU's favor.
> 
> Clearly explains why the jump from the SU-30 to Rafale or a 5th Gen platform.
> 
> By the way, Pakistani pilots have flow from the Mig 29's, to SU-30's, Mirage 2000 and soon Rafales also as Egyptians are getting it. So both sides know everything about the other one's platforms. What is different and has kept India at bay, is the serious capability that the -16 offers and they still can't get to a constant 50% kill ratio, without losing a larger number of SU-30's!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 1) The UAE had Mirages and Pakisanis have flowing them in Combat Sorties during the second Gulf war in serious numbers!!!
> 
> 2) PAF pilots have NOT only flown the SU-27 and SU-30 inside China only, they have ALSO flown these more than twice for a few weeks each inside Pakistan for exercises. For confidentiality and exercise's sake, the SU-30 was put on a far away FOB and was to act like an aggressor (Indo - Pak war scenario) , representing the "Red" force. And to counter it in exercises, the PAF used -16 alone, -16 with F-7 (larger numbers coming in from the Red force), the JFT alone, the JFT with F-7 (larger number coming in from the Red force).
> 
> 3) If the Singaporeans and Isrealis are going to do everything for you, how about give them the plane and let them fight the PAF too  . Its like Moma Isreali AF bird feeding the baby IAF bird, teaching the baby bird how to fly,find food and eat it !!!! And IF you are getting tactics down from the Singaporeans, only God help you. Singaporean pilots are like Swedish pilots, haven't seen a conflict for 3 generations of pilots and the best thing they can do, is to escort Russian planes on and off, or do exercises with NATO, limited to simulations only!!!! And you want these Singaporean pilots to teach you "Tactics"!!!
> 
> And that you can't win from the -16, even if you did these exercises for the next 10 years. Israeli's have maintained a 1% loss ratio against the Mirages and the SU-30's and thus, India's decision to go buy Rafale's and 5th gen from Russia. Speaks volume.
> 
> There is a reason WHY the "limited warfare" didn't happen as post 2002 was the prime time to involve Pakistan into it as they rarely even had BVR's back then. But the IAF didn't do it because these SAME pilots and exercises, have provided the real truth to the Indian leadership. If you want to attack Pakistan, be ready to lose 50-100 SU-30's and Mirages. And the COST of that, isn't digestible to the Indians. Not to mention the mockery a trying to be "soup-o-powa" would get out of this across the globe!!
> 
> 
> And I hope I explained to you what I MEAN....double cheers mate



Hi,

I could not have put it nicer than how you have done it.


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## Viper0011.

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I could not have put it nicer than how you have done it.



Thank you. I've learned one thing writing posts, that the stupid IPad was really built for women to touch screen with their long nails. Not for posting on forums.

It eats many words due to screen touch sensitivity and my big fingers. It makes the writer look like he didn't pass the high school due to so many mistakes, which otherwise won't be there if I used a laptop. I guess I am buying a laptop soon or retiring from the PDF!!!!

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Omega007

Donatello said:


> ...and PAF has enough DACT training with the Flankers.........
> 
> Guru, i thought a ban would've sorted your mind out, but i guess, once an Indian, always an Indian.



Can't compare the situations m8!!



datalibdaz said:


> Stop with your ''_mental masturbation''....._Neither Singaporean nor Israelies have had any training with Pakistani F 16 pilots...IAF will hardly know the tactics and training PAF Pilots employ...From PAF Pilots you should always expect surprises...



And what makes you think that PAF fighter pilots would be so much better than their Israeli or Singaporean counterparts??And when most of the future air battles are to be fought at BVR ranges,tactics become secondary anyway.It's the technical knowledge about your opponent's fighters which is the most important factor.



Viper0011. said:


> Ok.......so these are the pilots who told the Indian Government not to eff with Pakistan through trying to get into a limited war, because of the scary experience of capabilities these guys had flying the -16 against the SU-30's in house?
> 
> I also heard that the Isreali -16's dominate every encounter, be it BVR or WVR simulation against Mirages and SU-30's. Israeli sources say that like the remainder of their experiences, they've maintained 1% loss against Indian top tier planes. Which is why India went to PakFa and Rafale. The SU's have yet to win a sizable engagement against the -16's.
> 
> On Singaporean pilots, these guys are, at best, like the Swedish Air-force, the got the nicer toys but don't have have any combat experience outside of NATO exercises since the WWII. So their flying of the -16 is like I'd drive a Ferrari, for fun only. But even in their case, the SU-30 hasn't been shown to "dominate" anything. The results are in -16's favor and sometime in SU's favor.
> 
> Clearly explains why the jump from the SU-30 to Rafale or a 5th Gen platform.
> 
> By the way, Pakistani pilots have flow from the Mig 29's, to SU-30's, Mirage 2000 and soon Rafales also as Egyptians are getting it. So both sides know everything about the other one's platforms. What is different and has kept India at bay, is the serious capability that the -16 offers and they still can't get to a constant 50% kill ratio, without losing a larger number of SU-30's!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 1) The UAE had Mirages and Pakisanis have flowing them in Combat Sorties during the second Gulf war in serious numbers!!!
> 
> 2) PAF pilots have NOT only flown the SU-27 and SU-30 inside China only, they have ALSO flown these more than twice for a few weeks each inside Pakistan for exercises. For confidentiality and exercise's sake, the SU-30 was put on a far away FOB and was to act like an aggressor (Indo - Pak war scenario) , representing the "Red" force. And to counter it in exercises, the PAF used -16 alone, -16 with F-7 (larger numbers coming in from the Red force), the JFT alone, the JFT with F-7 (larger number coming in from the Red force).
> 
> 3) If the Singaporeans and Isrealis are going to do everything for you, how about give them the plane and let them fight the PAF too  . Its like Moma Isreali AF bird feeding the baby IAF bird, teaching the baby bird how to fly,find food and eat it !!!! And IF you are getting tactics down from the Singaporeans, only God help you. Singaporean pilots are like Swedish pilots, haven't seen a conflict for 3 generations of pilots and the best thing they can do, is to escort Russian planes on and off, or do exercises with NATO, limited to simulations only!!!! And you want these Singaporean pilots to teach you "Tactics"!!!
> 
> And that you can't win from the -16, even if you did these exercises for the next 10 years. Israeli's have maintained a 1% loss ratio against the Mirages and the SU-30's and thus, India's decision to go buy Rafale's and 5th gen from Russia. Speaks volume.
> 
> There is a reason WHY the "limited warfare" didn't happen as post 2002 was the prime time to involve Pakistan into it as they rarely even had BVR's back then. But the IAF didn't do it because these SAME pilots and exercises, have provided the real truth to the Indian leadership. If you want to attack Pakistan, be ready to lose 50-100 SU-30's and Mirages. And the COST of that, isn't digestible to the Indians. Not to mention the mockery a trying to be "soup-o-powa" would get out of this across the globe!!
> 
> 
> And I hope I explained to you what I MEAN....double cheers mate



Seriously man,change your flags!! 
By the way,why do you think we will be engaging their air force on the air when we can destroy their air assets even before they can take off??All we have to do is to destroy their runways with tactical battle field missiles like K 15s and Prithvi 3s,armed with anti air strip munitions and then..............,but lets save this discussion for another time.

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## araz

Viper0011. said:


> Thank you. I've learned one thing writing posts, that the stupid IPad was really built for women to touch screen with their long nails. Not for posting on forums.
> 
> It eats many words due to screen touch sensitivity and my big fingers. It makes the writer look like he didn't pass the high school due to so many mistakes, which otherwise won't be there if I used a laptop. I guess I am buying a laptop soon or retiring from the PDF!!!!


Its a problem with all people using smart phones and tablets. My daughters have no problems typing at 80 words a minute and yet I struggle putting in 10. Anyways from experience just read your post before posting and edit it. That is the only solution. A sharpner for stubby fingers might not be a good solution

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## Donatello

Viper0011. said:


> Thank you. I've learned one thing writing posts, that the stupid IPad was really built for women to touch screen with their long nails. Not for posting on forums.
> 
> It eats many words due to screen touch sensitivity and my big fingers. It makes the writer look like he didn't pass the high school due to so many mistakes, which otherwise won't be there if I used a laptop. I guess I am buying a laptop soon or retiring from the PDF!!!!



Get iPad Pro and a keyboard. Will make you life much easier.

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## MastanKhan

Viper0011. said:


> Thank you. I've learned one thing writing posts, that the stupid IPad was really built for women to touch screen with their long nails. Not for posting on forums.
> 
> It eats many words due to screen touch sensitivity and my big fingers. It makes the writer look like he didn't pass the high school due to so many mistakes, which otherwise won't be there if I used a laptop. I guess I am buying a laptop soon or retiring from the PDF!!!!



Hi,

So---now you have two choices---either get a laptop----or go to the chinese lady in the nail shop---and get some plastic nails.

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## Viper0011.

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> So---now you have two choices---either get a laptop----or go to the chinese lady in the nail shop---and get some plastic nails.



 Laptop it is....



Donatello said:


> Get iPad Pro and a keyboard. Will make you life much easier.



I have a wireless KB that I bought with the IPad a while ago. But I keep the IPad with me without carrying a big office bag, casually in the car, just so I get all my e-mails and docs on them while I am on the go. So the KB, 99% of the time, is sitting in my office bag without a use. I need to change that or just get a laptop today.



araz said:


> *A sharpner for stubby fingers might not be a good solution*



I'd avoid it. If you every try it, let me know how it went

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## MilSpec

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I could not have put it nicer than how you have done it.


Off topic and with all due respect I think you have found the perfect member here... both posting their imagination of what happens in a combat/training exercises, as gospel of truth with zero references, or logic.



Viper0011. said:


> Ok.......so these are the pilots who told the Indian Government not to eff with Pakistan through trying to get into a limited war, because of the scary experience of capabilities these guys had flying the -16 against the SU-30's in house?
> 
> I also heard that the Isreali -16's dominate every encounter, be it BVR or WVR simulation against Mirages and SU-30's. Israeli sources say that like the remainder of their experiences, they've maintained 1% loss against Indian top tier planes. Which is why India went to PakFa and Rafale. The SU's have yet to win a sizable engagement against the -16's.
> 
> On Singaporean pilots, these guys are, at best, like the Swedish Air-force, the got the nicer toys but don't have have any combat experience outside of NATO exercises since the WWII. So their flying of the -16 is like I'd drive a Ferrari, for fun only. But even in their case, the SU-30 hasn't been shown to "dominate" anything. The results are in -16's favor and sometime in SU's favor.
> 
> Clearly explains why the jump from the SU-30 to Rafale or a 5th Gen platform.
> 
> By the way, Pakistani pilots have flow from the Mig 29's, to SU-30's, Mirage 2000 and soon Rafales also as Egyptians are getting it. So both sides know everything about the other one's platforms. What is different and has kept India at bay, is the serious capability that the -16 offers and they still can't get to a constant 50% kill ratio, without losing a larger number of SU-30's!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 1) The UAE had Mirages and Pakisanis have flowing them in Combat Sorties during the second Gulf war in serious numbers!!!
> 
> 2) PAF pilots have NOT only flown the SU-27 and SU-30 inside China only, they have ALSO flown these more than twice for a few weeks each inside Pakistan for exercises. For confidentiality and exercise's sake, the SU-30 was put on a far away FOB and was to act like an aggressor (Indo - Pak war scenario) , representing the "Red" force. And to counter it in exercises, the PAF used -16 alone, -16 with F-7 (larger numbers coming in from the Red force), the JFT alone, the JFT with F-7 (larger number coming in from the Red force).
> 
> 3) If the Singaporeans and Isrealis are going to do everything for you, how about give them the plane and let them fight the PAF too  . Its like Moma Isreali AF bird feeding the baby IAF bird, teaching the baby bird how to fly,find food and eat it !!!! And IF you are getting tactics down from the Singaporeans, only God help you. Singaporean pilots are like Swedish pilots, haven't seen a conflict for 3 generations of pilots and the best thing they can do, is to escort Russian planes on and off, or do exercises with NATO, limited to simulations only!!!! And you want these Singaporean pilots to teach you "Tactics"!!!
> 
> And that you can't win from the -16, even if you did these exercises for the next 10 years. Israeli's have maintained a 1% loss ratio against the Mirages and the SU-30's and thus, India's decision to go buy Rafale's and 5th gen from Russia. Speaks volume.
> 
> There is a reason WHY the "limited warfare" didn't happen as post 2002 was the prime time to involve Pakistan into it as they rarely even had BVR's back then. But the IAF didn't do it because these SAME pilots and exercises, have provided the real truth to the Indian leadership. If you want to attack Pakistan, be ready to lose 50-100 SU-30's and Mirages. And the COST of that, isn't digestible to the Indians. Not to mention the mockery a trying to be "soup-o-powa" would get out of this across the globe!!
> 
> 
> And I hope I explained to you what I MEAN....double cheers mate


Zero references, zero logic and traditional mental self pleasure... 
Irrespective of the above your narrative show the naivety and lack of understanding of objectives of training exercises...


----------



## Viper0011.

MilSpec said:


> Off topic and with all due respect I think you have found the perfect member here... both posting their imagination of what happens in a combat/training exercises, as gospel of truth with zero references, or logic.
> Zero references, zero logic and traditional mental self pleasure...
> Irrespective of the above your narrative show the naivety and lack of understanding of objectives of training exercises...




References and facts of learning tactics from Singapore and Israel were provided by various Indian members on here, in this thread. Some with pictures   .

If you have connections in the Israeli AF, I'd ask you to VERIFY my content that they've maintained 1% loss ratio against the Indian SU-30s. Which is why, the NEW IAF Chief says "these SU's are freaking garbage in front of top American products" and he wants at-least 100 more Rafale's or EFT's. He said something along the lines of his speech yesteray or the day before. If these requirements haven't hit the Indian press, they will pretty soon. 

The IAF needs 100 more jets as SU-30's "multi-role" ability and massive size hasn't proven its worth. Yet, it is a great plane but in the situation with block 52 and 60 of the -16, easy to lose.

So here, I gave you references, facts and PROOFs of your own people, media and IAF chief. What more can you ask for to credentialize a person or a post?????

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## MilSpec

Viper0011. said:


> References and facts of learning tactics from Singapore and Israel were provided by various Indian members on here, in this thread. Some with pictures   .
> 
> If you have connections in the Israeli AF, I'd ask you to VERIFY my content that they've maintained 1% loss ratio against the Indian SU-30s. Which is why, the NEW IAF Chief says "these SU's are freaking garbage in front of top American products" and he wants at-least 100 more Rafale's or EFT's. He said something along the lines of his speech yesteray or the day before. If these requirements haven't hit the Indian press, they will pretty soon.
> 
> The IAF needs 100 more jets as SU-30's "multi-role" ability and massive size hasn't proven its worth. Yet, it is a great plane but in the situation with block 52 and 60 of the -16, easy to lose.
> 
> So here, I gave you references, facts and PROOFs of your own people, media and IAF chief. What more can you ask for to credentialize a person or a post?????


the only garbage is see is the verbiage above... lol... as expected.

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## Viper0011.

MilSpec said:


> the only garbage is see is the verbiage above... lol... as expected.



No, I gave you the References, Facts and Proofs and majority of those are your Indian sources as described above, right on this thread and some being announced soon in your media (see I know what's coming out of the Indian media in the near future too MUAHAHAAHA).

And now, I handed it to you ONE more time and your post above shows me nothing but frustration and embarrassment!!! I feel sorry man, I really do,

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## MilSpec

Viper0011. said:


> No, I gave you the References, Facts and Proofs and majority of those are your Indian sources as described above, right on this thread and some being announced soon in your media (see I know what's coming out of the Indian media in the near future too MUAHAHAAHA).
> 
> And now, I handed it to you ONE more time and your post above shows me nothing but frustration and embarrassment!!! I feel sorry man, I really do,


I am just amazed at how dumb you are, do you even know what references and proof means... you really need a dictionary...

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## Viper0011.

MilSpec said:


> I am just amazed at how dumb you are, do you even know what references and proof means... you really need a dictionary...



And I am just surprised to see how low IQ a nation of 1.2 billion people have. And yet are called "smart" when there is nothing smart or I haven't seen it. Ane xample are your posts, I embarrass you and prove you wrong ten times every week. But you don't get the hint.......where's the "smart Indian IQ" that you feed to the world that exists in India, coming down in the waters from Nepal that ONLY Indians drink, and therefore are smart people  

Let it go. Like the US Army's slogan, you are dealing with "an Army of One" and you can't win!!

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## MilSpec

Viper0011. said:


> And I am just surprised to see how low IQ a nation of 1.2 billion people have. And yet are called "smart" when there is nothing smart or I haven't seen it. Ane xample are your posts, I embarrass you and prove you wrong ten times every week. But you don't get the hint.......where's the "smart Indian IQ" that you feed to the world that exists in India, coming down in the waters from Nepal that ONLY Indians drink, and therefore are smart people
> 
> Let it go. Like the US Army's slogan, you are dealing with "an Army of One" and you can't win!!


man, sorry did not mean to hurt your little ego....
I sympathize with your situation.
Only if you could show One, one single post where you have proven anything with an engagement with me. I will leave this forum right now... how bout that?

Delusional trolls like you are dime a a dozen here on the forum


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## Viper0011.

MilSpec said:


> man, sorry did not mean to hurt your little ego....
> I sympathize with your situation.



I don't have ego. Just facts and you fail to provide them, even with your 1.2 billion people. At the end, you have post like these or personal stuff to write. Which I am no longer going to write back to you on. When you write a post with facts, worth responding, I'll respond to it.


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## MilSpec

Viper0011. said:


> I don't have ego. Just facts and you fail to provide them, even with your 1.2 billion people. At the end, you have post like these or personal stuff to write. Which I am no longer going to write back to you on. When you write a post with facts, worth responding, I'll respond to it.


what is there to post, about israeli engagements with MKI? or Singaporean f16's... you lack the basic understanding of the objectives of exercises, then what is there is the explain to dimwitted narratives like you present....


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## Donatello

MilSpec said:


> what is there to post, about israeli engagements with MKI? or Singaporean f16's... you lack the basic understanding of the objectives of exercises, then what is there is the explain to dimwitted narratives like you present....



Yes, like the higher than Mt Everest claims about Red Flag and Indra Danush?


----------



## Donatello

Viper0011. said:


> I have a wireless KB that I bought with the IPad a while ago. But I keep the IPad with me without carrying a big office bag, casually in the car, just so I get all my e-mails and docs on them while I am on the go. So the KB, 99% of the time, is sitting in my office bag without a use. I need to change that or just get a laptop today.



Look man, tablets and ipads are for p***sies. I had the ipad air, gave it to my 5 year old niece. Tablets are okay if you want to browse the web or do retarded social media crap. But if you really want to type or work, there is no replacement for a PC or laptop with a keyboard. At least, while typing, your fingers and brain know what they are up to. 

Get a small laptop, like one of those 11 or 12 inch screens. Plenty of good models from HP/Toshiba/Sony. They will have decent enough processing and screen. Plus, without the DVD drive, and with SSD, they are very thin and light. Get a carrying case and you are all set.

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## Windjammer

One of the dual seat F-16 acquired from Jordan, now serving with No-19 (Sherdil / War Hawks) squadron leaving for a night time sortie.

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## xperia

The jets from jordan have not been given the standard PAF falcon's paint scheme yet it seems

With the situation in ME so much fragile i don't know why they sell their most advanced jets to another country.


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## yugocrosrb95

xperia said:


> The jets from jordan have not been given the standard PAF falcon's paint scheme yet it seems
> 
> With the situation in ME so much fragile i don't know why they sell their most advanced jets to another country.


Maybe they are going to buy F22's from US once F35 starts being actually operation eg firing bullets and rockets...

Pakistan is in dire need for new fighters? Maybe KAI FA 50 will do the job, its afterall F16 Lite basically.


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## Bossman

yugocrosrb95 said:


> Maybe they are going to buy F22's from US once F35 starts being actually operation eg firing bullets and rockets...
> 
> Pakistan is in dire need for new fighters? Maybe KAI FA 50 will do the job, its afterall F16 Lite basically.



We are already inducting F16 Lite and it is called JF17. 3 squadrons operational more on the way.


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## Quwa

Donatello said:


> Look man, tablets and ipads are for p***sies. I had the ipad air, gave it to my 5 year old niece. Tablets are okay if you want to browse the web or do retarded social media crap. But if you really want to type or work, there is no replacement for a PC or laptop with a keyboard. At least, while typing, your fingers and brain know what they are up to.
> 
> Get a small laptop, like one of those 11 or 12 inch screens. Plenty of good models from HP/Toshiba/Sony. They will have decent enough processing and screen. Plus, without the DVD drive, and with SSD, they are very thin and light. Get a carrying case and you are all set.


Get a Surface Pro 4.


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## Windjammer



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## untitled

How come there are not many pics of our f16s carrying unguided rockets?


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## DANGER-ZONE

persona_non_grata said:


> How come there are not many pics of our f16s carrying unguided rockets?


Because when you have so many guided weapons on board, why would you need unguided rockets for ?
Only Russian breed aircraft comes with unguided rockets, whereas, they nearly obsolete in the west.
Well if you search on GOOGLE you will find a few pictures of F-16 with rocket pods, but old ones.

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## silent hawk

Armament options for PAF F-16s

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## A2Z

A friend of mine told me and its also written on wikipedia that PAF recently got 2 embargoed F-16. Is this true?


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## Dazzler

A2Z said:


> A friend of mine told me and its also written on wikipedia that PAF recently got 2 embargoed F-16. Is this true?



True

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## araz

Dazzler said:


> True


The main question is are we getting any more of the embargoed ones or is this it.
A


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## A2Z

Dazzler said:


> True


So we are still getting those embargoed planes.....Do you have any idea how many more are left?
Are they any good, I mean configuration MLU or ADF?


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## RAMPAGE

Its time we start pushing US for an AESA.


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## Dazzler

More embargoed one will come in coming months with MLU upgrades applied like the two that came.

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## RAMPAGE

Dazzler said:


> More embargoed one will come in coming months with MLU upgrades applied like the two that came.


MLU hamare kharche se ya uncle sam ke?


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## Dazzler

RAMPAGE said:


> MLU hamare kharche se ya uncle sam ke?


Sam


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## fatman17

F-16V is the most advanced 4th generation fighter available on the market today. The aircraft comes equipped with several enhancements to the mission computer, the craft's structure, cockpit, electronic warfare system, and the Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR), a full-performance fire control radar designed to support next generation weapons and tactics.


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## raazh

Dazzler said:


> More embargoed one will come in coming months with MLU upgrades applied like the two that came.



How many embargoed planes expected to join PAF with MLU ?? Also any news on the new built Blk52 sqd ?? There is news today that Air Chief having meeting with US counterpart for capacity enhancement of PAF in terms of fighter jets, advanced weaponry and allied equipment.


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## Windjammer

Albeit, an image from last year but check out some of the equipment associated with Block-52s.

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## Aamir Hussain

Does anyone have any news on the two "Lead the Fleet" a/c that were in US for the MLU/Falcon UP/Star program?


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## Manticore

windy, your fb links on previous page might be dead

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## Basel

Viper0011. said:


> Thank you. I've learned one thing writing posts, that the stupid IPad was really built for women to touch screen with their long nails. Not for posting on forums.
> 
> It eats many words due to screen touch sensitivity and my big fingers. It makes the writer look like he didn't pass the high school due to so many mistakes, which otherwise won't be there if I used a laptop. I guess I am buying a laptop soon or retiring from the PDF!!!!



Man you are not alone and IPAD is not only platform who give similar issues.

I have to edit my post because of auto word correct and touch issues.

It is very difficult to respond to posts in detail.


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## fatman17

Aamir Hussain said:


> Does anyone have any news on the two "Lead the Fleet" a/c that were in US for the MLU/Falcon UP/Star program?



Back long time ago

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## Shabi1

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 263391
> 
> F-16V is the most advanced 4th generation fighter available on the market today. The aircraft comes equipped with several enhancements to the mission computer, the craft's structure, cockpit, electronic warfare system, and the Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR), a full-performance fire control radar designed to support next generation weapons and tactics.


The F-16V upgrade is most likely only possible for F-16C/Ds (Block-25 and above). Block-15s are smaller.


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## Aamir Hussain

Thank you Sir! Then the two delivered were truly new ones (of the old lot)


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

What exactly is thie F16 V that is lately being mentioned , I know there are the UAE Falcons , which were custom


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Back long time ago


So are you saying that we are getting the old bl,15OCUs meant for us that went to their Navy?confirmation would be appreciated.
A


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## Aamir Hussain

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> What exactly is thie F16 V that is lately being mentioned , I know there are the UAE Falcons , which were custom



"*JAKARTA, Indonesia, Oct. 7, 2015* – Lockheed Martin brought its F-16 cockpit demonstrator to Indonesia this week to highlight the F-16V, the latest version of Lockheed Martin’s venerable F-16 Fighting Falcon multirole fighter. The F-16V offers the most advanced 4th Generation capability available on the market today, including Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) and enhancements to the aircraft’s mission computer, vehicle systems, aircraft structure, cockpit and electronic warfare system.

The F-16V is the next generation configuration that leverages a common worldwide sustainment infrastructure and provides significant capability improvements to the world’s most affordable and effective multi-role fighter. This upgrade and production configuration will be the predominant configuration for the F-16 worldwide fleet. The new avionics configuration represents the most significant F-16 upgrade to date.

With more than 4,500 F-16s delivered, the F-16V is a natural step in the evolution of the world’s most successful 4th Generation fighter. The Fighting Falcon program has continually evolved as it began with the F-16 A/B as the lightweight fighter then transitioned to F-16 C/D and Block 60 versions as customers’ requirements evolved.

For additional information, visit our website: lockheedmartin.com/f16"

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## fatman17

araz said:


> So are you saying that we are getting the old bl,5s meant for us that went to their Navy?confirmation would be appreciated.
> A



Correct

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## Windjammer



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## black-hawk_101

is PAF getting their 14 remaining F-16s? as 2 F-16s have already been arrived.


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## Windjammer



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## IrbiS

*Lockheed's enhanced F-16V makes first flight*




21 OCTOBER, 2015

BY: CRAIG HOYLE

LONDON
The newest version of Lockheed Martin’s venerable F-16 has taken to the air for the first time, with a range of equipment enhancements including an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.

Flown from Lockheed’s Fort Worth production facility in Texas on 16 October, the F-16V is being aimed at potential export customers, including Indonesia. The company exhibited a cockpit demonstrator for the new variant in Jakarta earlier this month, having formally launched the product at the Singapore air show in 2012.






Lockheed Martin

Lockheed describes the addition of Northrop Grumman’s APG-83 Scalable Agile Beam Radar as delivering “a quantum leap in capability” for the F-16.Further enhancements incorporated for the F-16V include the addition of a centre pedestal display for the pilot, plus a modernised mission computer, other new avionics equipment and an updated electronic warfare system. Combined, these “add significant combat capabilities to address the dynamic threat environments emerging in the coming decades”, the company says.






Lockheed Martin

Lockheed is offering to manufacture the V-model aircraft for new and repeat customers, or to provide elements of the update package – such as the AESA radar – during upgrades to in-service examples. Taiwan is the launch customer for such a modernisation programme, with 144 F-16A/Bs to be updated via a Lockheed-led activity.More than 4,550 F-16s have been delivered throughout the programme’s history. The design was first flown in 1974, and Flightglobal’s Fleets Analyzer database records the type’s current active global fleet as totalling 2,998 aircraft. Lockheed’s current sales backlog for the type includes fighters on order for Egypt and Iraq, while the United Arab Emirates also plans to increase the size of its current fleet of E/F-model examples

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## A2Z

IrbiS said:


> *Lockheed's enhanced F-16V makes first flight*
> 
> 
> 
> 21 OCTOBER, 2015
> 
> BY: CRAIG HOYLE
> 
> LONDON
> The newest version of Lockheed Martin’s venerable F-16 has taken to the air for the first time, with a range of equipment enhancements including an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar.
> 
> Flown from Lockheed’s Fort Worth production facility in Texas on 16 October, the F-16V is being aimed at potential export customers, including Indonesia. The company exhibited a cockpit demonstrator for the new variant in Jakarta earlier this month, having formally launched the product at the Singapore air show in 2012.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lockheed Martin
> 
> Lockheed describes the addition of Northrop Grumman’s APG-83 Scalable Agile Beam Radar as delivering “a quantum leap in capability” for the F-16.Further enhancements incorporated for the F-16V include the addition of a centre pedestal display for the pilot, plus a modernised mission computer, other new avionics equipment and an updated electronic warfare system. Combined, these “add significant combat capabilities to address the dynamic threat environments emerging in the coming decades”, the company says.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lockheed Martin
> 
> Lockheed is offering to manufacture the V-model aircraft for new and repeat customers, or to provide elements of the update package – such as the AESA radar – during upgrades to in-service examples. Taiwan is the launch customer for such a modernisation programme, with 144 F-16A/Bs to be updated via a Lockheed-led activity.More than 4,550 F-16s have been delivered throughout the programme’s history. The design was first flown in 1974, and Flightglobal’s Fleets Analyzer database records the type’s current active global fleet as totalling 2,998 aircraft. Lockheed’s current sales backlog for the type includes fighters on order for Egypt and Iraq, while the United Arab Emirates also plans to increase the size of its current fleet of E/F-model examples


Are all blocks upgrade able to V standards?


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## aliyusuf

A2Z said:


> Are all blocks upgrade able to V standards?



Radar and avionics wise yes.


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## fatman17

*White House Set to Sell New Fighter Jets to Pakistan in Bid to Bolster Partnership*
By MATTHEW ROSENBERG and DAVID E. SANGEROCT. 21, 2015

8 F16C/D are proposed to be sold.

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## aliyusuf

fatman17 said:


> *White House Set to Sell New Fighter Jets to Pakistan in Bid to Bolster Partnership*
> By MATTHEW ROSENBERG and DAVID E. SANGEROCT. 21, 2015
> 
> 8 F16C/D are proposed to be sold.



Hope these are the AESA equipped F-16Vs.


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## A2Z

fatman17 said:


> *White House Set to Sell New Fighter Jets to Pakistan in Bid to Bolster Partnership*
> By MATTHEW ROSENBERG and DAVID E. SANGEROCT. 21, 2015
> 
> 8 F16C/D are proposed to be sold.


Did PAF asked for them or they themselves are approving the sales? Last time we had the option to purchase 36 but we bought only 18 so option for additional 18 was on the table. Right? So does this mean we are now looking to but 26?
And by any chance does these 8 refer to the 8 from remaining 12, embargoed ones?


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## GHOST RIDER

fatman17 said:


> *White House Set to Sell New Fighter Jets to Pakistan in Bid to Bolster Partnership*
> By MATTHEW ROSENBERG and DAVID E. SANGEROCT. 21, 2015
> 
> 8 F16C/D are proposed to be sold.



Which squadron will these 8 F-16s go ?
Since only 5 Squadron has this version
And they have 18 of these
Will they increase the number to 26 planes then ?


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## airbus101

F-16V Takes Flight · Lockheed Martin
*FORT WORTH, Texas, Oct. 21, 2015* – Lockheed Martin (NYSE: LMT) successfully completed the maiden flight of the F-16V, the latest and most advanced F-16 on the market today. The October 16 flight marks the first time an F-16 has flown with Northrop Grumman’s advanced APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR), which will deliver a quantum leap in capability for the venerable F-16.

The F-16V “Viper” advanced avionics configuration also includes a new cockpit Center Pedestal Display, a modernized mission computer, a high-capacity Ethernet data bus, and several other missions systems enhancements that collectively add significant combat capabilities to address the dynamic threat environments emerging in the coming decades.

“This flight marks a historic milestone in the evolution of the F-16,” said Rod McLean, vice president and general manager of Lockheed Martin’s F-16/F-22 Integrated Fighter Group. “The new F-16V configuration includes numerous enhancements designed to keep the F-16 at the forefront of international security, strengthening its position as the world’s foremost combat-proven 4th Generation fighter aircraft.”

The F-16V, an option for both new production F-16s and F-16 upgrades, is the next generation configuration that leverages a common worldwide sustainment infrastructure and provides significant capability improvements to the world’s most affordable, combat-proven multi-role fighter.

Northrop Grumman’s APG-83 SABR AESA fire control radar provides 5th Generation air-to-air and air-to-ground radar capability. Northrop Grumman also provides AESA radars for the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II.

With more than 4,550 F-16s delivered to date, the F-16V is a natural step in the evolution of the world’s most successful 4th Generation fighter.

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## black-hawk_101

Any Chance of PAF getting these after PM visits?

12 Remaining F-16s (2 already arrived)
45 Jordanian F-16s
21 Venezuela F-16s 

with upgrade to MLU-3

What is the news of about 8 or 32 new F-16s coming to PAF?


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## aliyusuf

My suspicion that these 8 new F-16s on offer may be the latest F-16V, the first example of which flew 2 days ago, is given by this statement from a Pakistani Govt. official as reported by Janes ...

_""These new aircraft will be more advanced than the last batch of F-16s [the contract for which was signed in 2006]," said the Pakistani government official."_

US prepares to sell eight newbuild F-16s to Pakistan - IHS Jane's 360

This has been originally posted by @Tameem on another thread.

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## IrbiS

black-hawk_101 said:


> Any Chance of PAF getting these after PM visits?
> 
> 12 Remaining F-16s (2 already arrived)
> 45 Jordanian F-16s
> 21 Venezuela F-16s
> 
> with upgrade to MLU-3
> 
> What is the news of about 8 or 32 new F-16s coming to PAF?

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## mingle

aliyusuf said:


> My suspicion that these 8 new F-16s on offer may be the latest F-16V, the first example of which flew 2 days ago, is given by this statement from a Pakistani Govt. official as reported by Janes ...
> 
> _""These new aircraft will be more advanced than the last batch of F-16s [the contract for which was signed in 2006]," said the Pakistani government official."_
> 
> US prepares to sell eight newbuild F-16s to Pakistan - IHS Jane's 360
> 
> This has been originally posted by @Tameem on another thread.


If these r F16 v then 8 might be initial order


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## umair86

I don't know why people post such stupid comments of getting this and that


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## mingle

umair86 said:


> I don't know why people post such stupid comments of getting this and that


Ppl have opinion i dont see anything wrong in it ?

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## aliyusuf

mingle said:


> If these r F16 v then 8 might be initial order



That certainly might be the case.

But in any case, what seems to be the happening here is that the PAF is inducting F-16s in small increments so that it does not raise too many eye brows in Washington's anti-Pakistan lobby and is easy on the funds reserve. It makes sense that the next small incremental order be placed depending on the funds situation and Pak-US relations.

So over the next 5 years, we may witness similar follow up small orders. If more EDA F-16s (used) are also made available along the way, then this may bolster the overall F-16 numbers closer to or past 100.

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## MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n

aliyusuf said:


> That certainly might be the case.
> 
> But in any case, what seems to be the happening here is that the PAF is inducting F-16s in small increments so that it does not raise too many eye brows in Washington's anti-Pakistan lobby and is easy on the funds reserve. It makes sense that the next small incremental order be placed depending on the funds situation and Pak-US relations.
> 
> So over the next 5 years, we may witness similar follow up small orders. If more EDA F-16s (used) are also made available along the way, then this may bolster the overall F-16 numbers closer to or past 100.



is airforce again ready for another backstabbing from sanctions by usa when hindia attacks us ...???


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## aliyusuf

MuZammiL Dr. s[1]n said:


> is airforce again ready for another backstabbing from sanctions by usa when hindia attacks us ...???



For sure no. Hence the small number.

In my humble opinion, the next small incremental order will be placed only after situation is deemed all clear on the relations front. So that the tactical and financial impact of a sanction is more sustainable. Furthermore, with the involvement of the Russians in Syria and its effects over the entire ME and the Afghan situation, it seems the US will be needing a non-disgruntled and non-reluctant ally in Pakistan.

This is just conjecture on my part. But based on that conjecture I don't see a sanction like situation within the next 5 years at least.

But this does not mean that the PAF has abandoned pursuing other options regarding the source and regarding whether its a heavy or medium weight platform. In my limited understanding, I think they are following a Hi-Mid-Lo fleet mix, based on their limited options and resources.


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## mingle

aliyusuf said:


> That certainly might be the case.
> 
> But in any case, what seems to be the happening here is that the PAF is inducting F-16s in small increments so that it does not raise too many eye brows in Washington's anti-Pakistan lobby and is easy on the funds reserve. It makes sense that the next small incremental order be placed depending on the funds situation and Pak-US relations.
> 
> So over the next 5 years, we may witness similar follow up small orders. If more EDA F-16s (used) are also made available along the way, then this may bolster the overall F-16 numbers closer to or past 100.


Ali that what make sence to me reason is F16 V is different aircraft than we have plus it looks like LK Martin introduce a cheaper version of F35 for the countries who cant afford it .there r many countries who got hundrads of F16s but cant afford F35 to replace them so this become cheaper version of F35 same tech tickle down into V .i Beleive if that is case according to jane then F16 gonna stay with PAF for another 25 to 30 yrs i hope that Lockhead move its some assembly to pak if pak look to replace all MLU and addtional F16 .Not Good news for india cold water on theior Rafele .This would cheaper fifth generation solution for pak from america to replace its F16s older ones .rest inagree with u but remember Anericans r bussinessman when its comes to money they all one they see juice in pak airforce u will see how they will pass it through congress like AH1z vipers did anybody object ?none except Hussain Haqqani


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## aliyusuf

mingle said:


> F16 V is different aircraft than we have



Actually it uses the same power plant and has a seemingly identical air frame as the Block-50/52+. Refer to the Lockheed Martin site F-16 Fighting Falcon · Lockheed MartinF-16 Fighting Falcon · Lockheed Martin It only differs in APG-83 SABR AESA Radar, Advanced EW Suite, New Avionics and Mission Computer. Its fire control system and EW Suite is 5th Gen. The difference b/w F-16V and our F-16 Block-52+ is less than the difference between our Block-52+ and our Block-15s before MLU.

The handling of the new Jet will be quite similar to our Block-52+.

Also the V-Upgrade is compatible with previous Blocks as well. Taiwan is upgrading its 140+ As and Bs to the V-Standard.

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## Quwa

aliyusuf said:


> That certainly might be the case.
> 
> But in any case, what seems to be the happening here is that the PAF is inducting F-16s in small increments so that it does not raise too many eye brows in Washington's anti-Pakistan lobby and is easy on the funds reserve. It makes sense that the next small incremental order be placed depending on the funds situation and Pak-US relations.
> 
> So over the next 5 years, we may witness similar follow up small orders. If more EDA F-16s (used) are also made available along the way, then this may bolster the overall F-16 numbers closer to or past 100.


Yep I came to the same conclusion as well, the cost of each purchase would be comparatively low, thereby using the standard fiscal budget. PAF wanted 110 F-16s in 1989 and again in 2005 (60 MLU + 50-55 C/D), it's again planning to get there.

There are 18 C/Ds now, add these 8 C/D (or V) and it's at 26, and that is just 24-29 away from the 2005 plan. At that point PAF can split it into two incremental orders or just finish it with one. 

This is very similar to how the PAF pursued the Mirage III/5 in the 1970s.

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## Thunder_Rider

PAF should order at-least 18 more F-16V and get back it's 12 remaining F-16A/B with MLU-03 upgrades. Getting them will provide a major hike in PAF capabilities.

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## aftab_s81

An important article:
To Sell Or Not To Sell? The United States, Pakistan, and the F-16 | all things foreign

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## krash

aftab_s81 said:


> An important article:
> To Sell Or Not To Sell? The United States, Pakistan, and the F-16 | all things foreign



That article isn't worth the paper it's written on, yes it's worth less than nothing.

1) Why would Pakistan ever choose to deliver it's nukes by aircraft when it has a range of ballistic missiles to do exactly that? Ballistic missiles which can not only reach a lot farther, travel a lot faster but are also a lot less prone to being countered.

2) This below quoted paragraph aptly displays this article for what it is; a propaganda piece,



> For example, is Pakistan using F-16s to target the Haqqani Network, a grouping of Afghan Pashtun militants who yield enormous influence on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border?Probably not, given Pakistan’s interest in using Pashtun groups in Afghanistan to perpetuate its influence there.



So instead of listening to, supposedly, his own government or considering evidence to the contrary he decides to surmise by basing his verdict on Pakistan's commitment to the WOT on the words that a little fairy whispered in his ear. "Probably not", that really cracked me up. You gotto respect the Indian lobby.

Operation Zarb-i-Azb disrupted Haqqani network: US general - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

Forces kill top Haqqani commander

Pakistan air strikes target Haqqani insurgents | World news | The Guardian


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## Windjammer

*Falcon over Margala Hills, Islamabad.*

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## Windjammer

Formation take-off from a FOB.

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## aliyusuf

Back in 2006 we contracted to buy 18 F-16 Block-52+ at the cost of USD 1.5 Billion.

Details of which are ...
Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s - $3 billion The package for Pakistan's new F-16s also includes:

36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft with either the F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs) and APG-68(V)9 radars;
7 spare F100-PW-229 IPE or F110-GE-129 IPE engines;
7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets;
36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II;
36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircraft's sides to give them extra range;
36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; DID has covered the tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems;
36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems;
36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM;
1 Unit Level Trainer;
 Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability.
Since Pakistan only opted for 18 ... I am assuming we got half of what is stated above.

This gives a fly away cost of USD 83.33 Million per plane back in 2006.

Which was extremely high. Because there was nothing on offer (as listed above) that is extraordinary.
Just curious ... weren't we fleeced on this deal?

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## Paksanity

aliyusuf said:


> Back in 2006 we contracted to buy 18 F-16 Block-52+ at the cost of USD 1.5 Billion.
> 
> Details of which are ...
> Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s - $3 billion The package for Pakistan's new F-16s also includes:
> 
> 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft with either the F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs) and APG-68(V)9 radars;
> 7 spare F100-PW-229 IPE or F110-GE-129 IPE engines;
> 7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets;
> 36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
> 36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II;
> 36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircraft's sides to give them extra range;
> 36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; DID has covered the tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems;
> 36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems;
> 36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
> 36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM;
> 1 Unit Level Trainer;
> Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability.
> Since Pakistan only opted for 18 ... I am assuming we got half of what is stated above.
> 
> This gives a fly away cost of USD 83.33 Million per plane back in 2006.
> 
> Which was extremely high. Because there was nothing on offer (as listed above) that is extraordinary.
> Just curious ... weren't we fleeced on this deal?



No. That's pretty economical actually. Don't go on figures which are loosely available on internet. 4+ Gen fighters cost that much when you buy them with support. Any other option would have set us back like $100 million or so.


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## Aamir Hussain

Do remember, these were practically new birds -- needed a whole new regimen for training of ground support personnel and the pilots. I am guessing here, training cost was built into the cost of each plane.


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## black-hawk_101

So any more F-16s?


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## MastanKhan

aliyusuf said:


> Back in 2006 we contracted to buy 18 F-16 Block-52+ at the cost of USD 1.5 Billion.
> 
> Details of which are ...
> Item 1: 36 New F-16 Block 50/52s - $3 billion The package for Pakistan's new F-16s also includes:
> 
> 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft with either the F100-PW-229 or F110-GE-129 Increased Performance Engines (IPEs) and APG-68(V)9 radars;
> 7 spare F100-PW-229 IPE or F110-GE-129 IPE engines;
> 7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets;
> 36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS);
> 36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II;
> 36 Conformal Fuel Tanks (pairs) that fit along the aircraft's sides to give them extra range;
> 36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals; DID has covered the tactical uses of MIDS-LVT Link 16 systems;
> 36 Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems;
> 36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems;
> 36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM;
> 1 Unit Level Trainer;
> Associated support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, capability to employ a wide variety of munitions, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to ensure full program supportability.
> Since Pakistan only opted for 18 ... I am assuming we got half of what is stated above.
> 
> This gives a fly away cost of USD 83.33 Million per plane back in 2006.
> 
> Which was extremely high. Because there was nothing on offer (as listed above) that is extraordinary.
> Just curious ... weren't we fleeced on this deal?



Hi,

which would put iyt in the same range as that of the Rafale at that time.

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## Asifkamal

I think at that time, Pakistan aorforce considered Grippen as well and it was priority. But price of grippen was more than F16???


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## v9s

Asifkamal said:


> I think at that time, Pakistan aorforce considered Grippen as well and it was priority. But price of grippen was more than F16???



No. The issue was with the American engine.


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## Asifkamal

That engine issue was in 1990,s .I,m talking about 2004_6 era. In 1999, clinton offered Pakistan grippen for not doing nuclear tests.price of grippen is I think 83 million dollars I.e same as f16 ( with weapon package). But cost of indulging new fighter is too much.


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## Aamir Hussain

black-hawk_101 said:


> So any more F-16s?



I guess so! PAF seems to be sticking to its original requirement of 120 to 130 birds.

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## araz

Aamir Hussain said:


> I guess so! PAF seems to be sticking to its original requirement of 120 to 130 birds.


You do t seem too happy. Might I enquire why?
A


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## django

Asifkamal said:


> I think at that time, Pakistan aorforce considered Grippen as well and it was priority. But price of grippen was more than F16???


I believe JF 17 block 3 is every bit as capable if not more, than the gripen.


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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> Formation take-off from a FOB.



COIN operation or CAP over eastern border? any thought?


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## Basel

Asifkamal said:


> That engine issue was in 1990,s .I,m talking about 2004_6 era. In 1999, clinton offered Pakistan grippen for not doing nuclear tests.price of grippen is I think 83 million dollars I.e same as f16 ( with weapon package). But cost of indulging new fighter is too much.



How Clinton had offered Grippen as its Swedish jet not US one? Please post source link.


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## Asifkamal

He called nawaz sharif and offered multi billion dollars economic package and for f16 , as there was american arms embargo on pakistan, he said you can get fighters from sweeden. So it was green signal


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## Asifkamal

Earlier in 1990,s pakistan had almost done a deal for 32 mirage 2000. But price went up due to loan and instead of 3 billion dollars, it went upto 4.2 billion dollars. While in that decade, PAF neede 916 million dollars for other projects as mirage upgrade, second hand mirages purchase, radars, avianics etc. So deal was not materialised


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## krash

Asifkamal said:


> Earlier in 1990,s pakistan had almost done a deal for 32 mirage 2000. But price went up due to loan and instead of 3 billion dollars, it went upto 4.2 billion dollars. While in that decade, PAF neede 916 million dollars for other projects as mirage upgrade, second hand mirages purchase, radars, avianics etc. So deal was not materialised



Mr.10% reportedly was a big reason in the deal going down.


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## Aamir Hussain

araz said:


> You do t seem too happy. Might I enquire why?
> A



Sir might have sounded sarcastic but it was not intended. I think what PAF will eventually end up doing is another Mirage/Rose thingie with the F-16. But this time around it is a better bet as advanced versions of the bird are still flying and being produced.

Essentially, buy about forty or so new build birds and acquire as and when we can get hold of, used birds and upgrade them in Turkey! To mitigate the spares issue -- we have some working relationship with Turkey and access to used planes -- just as we did in case of our Mirages. Almost 100 birds were bought to cannibalize for spares!

IMHO, 150 or so F-16 about 250 or so JFT's eventually upgraded to its definitive block (IV with composites and new engine, AESA and BVR) and about 50 heavy fighters will do the trick.

My 2C

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## black-hawk_101

Aamir Hussain said:


> I guess so! PAF seems to be sticking to its original requirement of 120 to 130 birds.


I think better for PAF is to go for:
1. 32 Block-52 + 18 Block-52 already present
2. more used F-16s block-15 like:
45 from Jordan + 16 already arrived
12 remaining F-16s from US + any additional F-16s from US reserves
21 F-16s from Venezuela

But PAF has to make a right decision by converting those Block-15s to at least Block-30/32 F-16s like Egypt did it.

I am sure that PAF wants more F-16s and now I am sure that PAF needs more Fighters not the old plan of 350-400. As our requirements are growing on daily basis to strike better inside and outside of Pakistan then we need more aircraft. I wish to see a deal for some 50 EF-2000s and 50 Grippen NGs too.


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## aftab_s81

black-hawk_101 said:


> I wish to see a deal for some 50 EF-2000s and 50 Grippen NGs too.


Allah Allah!


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## alimobin memon

Procure large number of jf17 dont go for used f16 even if we dont have much money for other jets buy quality ones ignore quantity cause it is compensated by jf17. Either Su35 or Chinese flankers or j31 even if not in huge numbers they do project a greater power


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## monitor

*Lockheed Martin tests F-16 durability*
Lockheed Martin is conducting tests to determine extended life-cycle flight hours for F-16 aircraft.
By Richard Tomkins | Nov. 3, 2015 at 3:34 PM




0 Comments



















An F-16C Block 50 used by Lockheed Martin in durability testing. Photo by Lockheed Martin
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FORT WORTH, Texas, Nov. 3 (UPI) -- An extended flight-hour limit for F-16C Block 50 aircraft is to be determined by Lockheed Martin with data gathered through simulated flights.

The data will help determine the durability of the aircraft beyond the original design service life of 8,000 hours, the company reported.

So far, 27,713 equivalent flight hours have been logged by a test aircraft during 32 rounds of comprehensive stress tests and its airframe subjected to several maximum-load conditions to demonstrate if the airframe had sufficient strength to operate within its full operational flight envelope.

Lockheed said the F-16 is now in the teardown inspection and fractography phase of the test program at the company's Full Scale Durability Test facility in Fort Worth. Durability test results will be used to help design and verify Service Life Extension Program, or SLEP, structural modifications.

The modifications will be for post-Block 40 F-16s and will also support F-16 service life certification to at least 12,000 extended flying hours.

"The successful completion of this phase of full-scale durability testing demonstrates that this aircraft was built to last," said Susan Ouzts, vice president of Lockheed Martin's F-16 program. "This should provide even more confidence to current and potential new F-16 customers that the combat-proven F-16 will continue to play a crucial role in international security."

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## araz

Aamir Hussain said:


> Sir might have sounded sarcastic but it was not intended. I think what PAF will eventually end up doing is another Mirage/Rose thingie with F-16. But this time around it is a better bet as advanced versions of the bird are still flying and being produced.
> 
> Essentially, buy about forty or so new build birds and acquire as when we can get hold of, used birds and upgrade them in Turkey! To mitigate the spares issue -- we have some working relationship with Turkey and access to used planes -- just as we did in case of our Mirages. Almost 100 birds were bought to cannibalize for spares!
> 
> IMHO, 150 or so F-16 about 250 or so JFT's eventually upgraded to its definitive block (IV with campsites and new engine AESA and BVR) and about 50 heavy fighters will do the trick.
> 
> My 2C


Firstly we are all brothers here so no Sirs please.I am too humble a being to be elevated to the rank nor do I desire it.
The only reason I asked was the tone of the post which suggested something was not quite as pleasing to you and wanted to know to start another debate and perhaps break the numbers game and the delusions of grandeur which come out of some posters.
I do agree with your analysis. However it might have been better if we had gone down the route of some other acquisition cycle rather than the fickle US temperamental supply chain in spite of their products providing the biggest bang for the buck. My problem remains one of a paranoid approach of once bitten twice shy. The S word that is forever hanging over this relationship.
However we have chosen an easier path putting our prized possessions in the same hands where we have been chastised. Could we have done any different? Yes. Would the outcome have been any different possibly not.
The options open to us are to go lock stock and barrel for the M2K in 2002. 16s were no where in sight the assembly line was closing down and Pakistan was just coming out of recession. Would it have proven a better acquisition? The outlay would have been a couple of billions and the engine might have had to be upgraded. The French were down and possibly might have relented and the UAE M2Ks might have ended up with us. The planes were quoted at 60 million a pop which for second hand jobs were expensive to say the least. However the crunch question was whether the French would have provided us the assembly line and more importantly whether we would have been able to absorb the technological challenges. This could have been a hurdle which we thought not possible.
We chose to go down the JFT route which allowed us to establish the industry at a slower pace working with materials which we were used to and good support from our friends who although have made money from us have also in the process helped us a lot. A wise decision and as time wìll probably prove a fruitful one.
The J10 saga. We chose to go down the J10 routs when Musharraf returned from the US and signed a memorandum of understanding in 2008?,,?thereby committing our selves to buy 40 of them. It would have complied with our policy of not giving the US the chance to disable an integral arm of our fleet at its whim by covering our bases with duplicated platforms. We asked for changes to the platforms which were duly made however we heard a funny statement I have never made any sense out of that the platform was nonupgradeable and PAF felt that JFT had more chances of getting upgraded when every one including the very designer of JFT was telling us that a much simpler approach was utilized in JFT. Whether that was a fact or a face saving solution from the PAF to hide the incompetence of Zardari remains to be seen. Zardari has now gone however there is no sign of J10 inspite of its newer iteration. The engine is being blamed but we seem to be in no hurry to get the J10s. Noone seems to know whether the plan has been dropped totally or whether some turnkey events are being waited for before it starts arriving.
The Russian offerings. Strategic regional reallignment has brought these two bitter enemies of the past closer together. We have inked a deal for some helos and there is talk of a lot more. Whether this is reality or another smoke screen remains to be seen. There is talk of the SU35s coming to PAF. While a great fan of these beasts I hesitate to venture an opinion on the feasibility of such an acquisition without actually denying the need. There are many aspects which make it an expensive and from certain angles an unwise move. Whether this union of convenience is strong enough to make and sustain the rigors of a platform sale remains to be seen.
The next generation plane. PAF had made it amply clear its interest in a couple of Chinese platforms which are 5th generation. Tests have taken place however there are technicalities which need resolving. Either case j31 will not see Pakistan as its new home till 2023-25. The finances of the project are also a headache as CATIC wants someone to invest in the project now and provide the money needed to complete and mature the project. PAF wants a risk free approach and wants Chinese Govtt/CATIC to invest in the project and once mature they will buy it off the shelf. PAF is also "looking" at other projects cor nothing else but to signal the Chinese that they are not the only providers of products and we have other options. Whether good or bad strategy needs to be seen.
So in short or not so short we have run out of options and have instead decided to go for the convenient choice in spite of major considerations and concerns. We are hoping to utilize our new found regional support to leverage US acquiescence in arms sale which remains a hard bridge to cross. We are also building enough spares to hopefully ride out any repeat of the 90s.
A

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## Basel

Can Jordan offer more F-16 or other good stuff?? Because it seems some thing may be cooking. 

Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - Jordan King Abdullah lauds PAF's role in fighting war against terrorism


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## MastanKhan

Aamir Hussain said:


> Sir might have sounded sarcastic but it was not intended. I think what PAF will eventually end up doing is another Mirage/Rose thingie with the F-16. But this time around it is a better bet as advanced versions of the bird are still flying and being produced.
> 
> Essentially, buy about forty or so new build birds and acquire as and when we can get hold of, used birds and upgrade them in Turkey! To mitigate the spares issue -- we have some working relationship with Turkey and access to used planes -- just as we did in case of our Mirages. Almost 100 birds were bought to cannibalize for spares!
> 
> IMHO, 150 or so F-16 about 250 or so JFT's eventually upgraded to its definitive block (IV with composites and new engine, AESA and BVR) and about 50 heavy fighters will do the trick.
> 
> My 2C



Hi,

With due respect-----Paf has been acting lost in direction more so since 2002 than in the 90's----and at that time it was confused.

JF 17 project should have been a " side project " being pushed in parallel while meeting the other needs of the air force.

The bottomline is that even after 14 years after the sanctions came off----there has not been an induction of a potent aircraft in the right numbers other than the 18 BLK 52's---.

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## Asifkamal

I tatally agree . In past 14 years, what we have got is meaningless. What original order was , in 2005_6, 75 block52' then reduced to 55 and then only 36 and then. Just 18. It was cancelled by Musharraf as he wanted to tell the world that we want to spend money on victems of earthquake.and then ppl saw many new faces getting billionaire...At that time, the only question asked by Lockheed was , if pakistan can pay for 75 birds?? Now they are not providing even secondhand. At that time, requirement was to offset su30. What to talk about Rafale?? And Chinese aircrafts are always under development when we need.. an example is j10. Since 2009, PAF is in need of it, and now its a failure of reverse engineering....I,m sure j31 will also be legging behind


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## IHK_PK

Our only survival left is to invest in R & D of next blocks of JF-17 with radars, avionics, engines and weapons of 5th generation jets. Wich can be aquire from Italy, south Africa, Russia and China.


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## mingle

Basel said:


> Can Jordan offer more F-16 or other good stuff?? Because it seems some thing may be cooking.
> 
> Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - Jordan King Abdullah lauds PAF's role in fighting war against terrorism


It getting clear & clear that we r moving in that arena to help these fellows againest Daiesh

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## araz

Basel said:


> Can Jordan offer more F-16 or other good stuff?? Because it seems some thing may be cooking.
> 
> Associated Press Of Pakistan ( Pakistan's Premier NEWS Agency ) - Jordan King Abdullah lauds PAF's role in fighting war against terrorism


Interesting but probably not. Jordan Is using its 16s for a war against the takfiris. It cannot spare them af the moment. There has been no move from US to replenish their 16s with newer ones. We do need to get our own bl.15 OCUs back from US. That ans a further small order with some newer goodies might be just the medicine the doctor ordered. 
A

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## Asli Lahori1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> With due respect-----Paf has been acting lost in direction more so since 2002 than in the 90's----and at that time it was confused.
> 
> JF 17 project should have been a " side project " being pushed in parallel while meeting the other needs of the air force.
> 
> The bottomline is that even after 14 years after the sanctions came off----there has not been an induction of a potent aircraft in the right numbers other than the 18 BLK 52's---.



Based on a past Rao Suleman Qamar statement I believe PAF is incapable of handling newer technology. May be the cost and time associated with mastering the newer potent technology scaring the hell out of PAF

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## Quwa

PAF is just short on money for major acquisitions. This is going to be a problem for as long as we let clowns such as Nawaz Sharif manage our economy.

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## MastanKhan

Asifkamal said:


> I tatally agree . In past 14 years, what we have got is meaningless. What original order was , in 2005_6, 75 block52' then reduced to 55 and then only 36 and then. Just 18. It was cancelled by Musharraf as he wanted to tell the world that we want to spend money on victems of earthquake.and then ppl saw many new faces getting billionaire...At that time, the only question asked by Lockheed was , if pakistan can pay for 75 birds?? Now they are not providing even secondhand. At that time, requirement was to offset su30. What to talk about Rafale?? And Chinese aircrafts are always under development when we need.. an example is j10. Since 2009, PAF is in need of it, and now its a failure of reverse engineering....I,m sure j31 will also be legging behind



Hi,

It was actually Paf that had assessed that the threat of war with india is minimal and there was no need for a high performance fighter aircraft----so they decided to go with their own research and a lightweight fighter the JF 17.


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## ConcealCarry

So you are a fan of economy management skills of Zardari and Gilani?



Saqr said:


> PAF is just short on money for major acquisitions. This is going to be a problem for as long as we let clowns such as Nawaz Sharif manage our economy.


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## Asli Lahori1

krash said:


> Mr.10% reportedly was a big reason in the deal going down.



Defense Minister of that time was asking Million dollar a piece for releasing the funds.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It was actually Paf that had assessed that the threat of war with india is minimal and there was no need for a high performance fighter aircraft----so they decided to go with their own research and a lightweight fighter the JF 17.


 The worst decision PAF has ever made. Total waste of money on Jf-17. May be the just needed JF-17 to fight in FATA and North Waziristan .

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## MastanKhan

Asli Lahori1 said:


> Defense Minister of that time was asking Million dollar a piece for releasing the funds.
> 
> 
> The worst decision PAF has ever made. Total waste of money on Jf-17. May be the just needed JF-17 to fight in FATA and North Waziristan .



Sir,

You just created a " horde " of enemies on this board---. Welcome to the club.

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## Asli Lahori1

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> You just created a " horde " of enemies on this board---. Welcome to the club.



Thanks for welcoming me. Realty is realty. JF-17 is nothing but a refurbished Mig 21. Yeah yeah it has DSI but it is useless unless; unless somehow PAF be able to add an additional power-plant, thus increasing the range to at least 3000 miles, add three or four more hard-points AESA etc but I guess that would be a lot of trouble so why the F@#k they are not going for J11D?

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## ConcealCarry

You are mistaken, it's a wolf under sheep's skin



MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> You just created a " horde " of enemies on this board---. Welcome to the club.


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## Quwa

ConcealCarry said:


> So you are a fan of economy management skills of Zardari and Gilani?


How does not wanting Sharif suddenly translate into wanting Zardari and Gilani? I don't want any of these clowns in charge of the economy. I'd rather hire a real clown to do it over these people. Heck, I'll hire a gorilla with an adopted 25 year old mentally challenged blind man with a pet weasel suffering from an amputated leg, to mange our economy.

Pakistanis need to make Pakistan incredibly hostile for the politicians, as it is the politicians in general who mis-manage the economic portfolio. We need to hold the security establishment to account as well, ideally with a drawn knife, so that these bloody suits and stars learn to *serve* the quam, not take us for a ride or two.

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## Viper0011.

Saqr said:


> PAF is just short on money for major acquisitions. This is going to be a problem for as long as we let clowns such as Nawaz Sharif manage our economy.



That's an interesting post....so the guy who brought your country back from guaranteed bankruptcy.....is "miss-managing" your economy? Your military's senior ranking officers have total trust in this guy's ability to create a new, financially prosperous Pakistan....why are your views so different?

Also, back in 2012, if Pakistan had hit the bankruptcy (as planned by the IMF, WB,etc), I hope you know that you won't get credit, or have access to any assets, to buy Peanuts, let alone Oil, Gas, Jets, Tanks, Trade and all....no one would extend a dollar to a bankrupt nation (like Pakistan) due to various "other" factors, including the Indian lobby factor and the hatred Mushy left in US's law makers hearts and mind, due to double crossing and OBL related issues. So this would result in a breakup of Pakistan. 

You wouldn't be able to get spares, service weapons, buy cheap, simple cleaning sprays, let alone weapons systems worth many millions. So a military without any budget or salaries or new weapons would somehow use supermen to run a war in FATA (costing many billions), and other Ops, and deal with a massive and may be a final Indian invasion (under the bankruptcy scenario)????

So at the least appreciate the mess this guy's team avoided for Pakistan. Its amazing how little people know about the serious issues Pakistan was going through, but everyone's quick to issue a Fatwa like opinion just out of personal bias.

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## Viper0011.

Asli Lahori1 said:


> Defense Minister of that time was asking Million dollar a piece for releasing the funds.
> 
> The worst decision PAF has ever made. Total waste of money on Jf-17. May be the just needed JF-17 to fight in FATA and North Waziristan .



1: Everyone in the history of Pakistan, involved in the defense deals, made millions. Take Mushy for example, how does his son own over $ 25 millions of secondary /joint hold owned real estate in the US? Similarly, Mushy has a bunch of other properties and business partnerships in the UK and even in Pakistan. Majority of which, yo guessed it, are with Ex-Generals or Senior Officers he dealt with during these defense deals. So there is no holly cow in these deals. In fact, this would be true for India, China and every other country too.

2: JFT isn't a "money wasted", when it replaces the 250-300 Mirages, and F-7's its supposed to, you brought 60% of the PAF from obsolete second generation to the 4th with just 40% of the money compared to what would it really cost to do so. Plus, you by passed many foreign countries and you'll save billions in ongoing maintenance and expense.

3: Remember, the JFT is not a -16 block 52 comparison. It's much stronger and capable than what its replacing. But you do need jets like the -16 block 52 and / or J-10C's or J-11's in decent numbers. And THEN add the J-31 for 5th gen. But for now, let's focus on conventional 4th -4.5th gen needs. J-10C has matured enough to be similar to Rafale, specially with the AESA. J-11D is also a great option. 

4: Funding situation, sooner or later, the FATA ops will stop. When that happens, a few billions being spent on there, will become available for other purposes. Plus, various economy and infrastructure related projects are near completion. One of the reasons that PAF is silent is due to the fact of JFT block III being a rename for a potential J-10C type of a plane where you are reusing what's already built and tested for years. So that would be real quick adoption. At this time, the real major issue is to finish infrastructure projects, start producing enough electricity, turn the keys on phase I of the CPEC and let the revenue flow. The J-10C orders can take any time, but if the PAF has her eyes on a better Western, Russian or a Chinese platform, it'll be 2018 before they can reassess the economic situation and hash-out a good few billions!! 

The PAF should get used -16's in the meantime. But on the JFT, I think they should continue with Block II for now, but reconfigure a plant for J-10C type production under Block III. It'll be quicker to get those jets.



Saqr said:


> Pakistanis need to make Pakistan incredibly hostile for the politicians, as it is the politicians in general who mis-manage the economic portfolio. We need to hold the security establishment to account as well, ideally with a drawn knife, so that these bloody suits and stars learn to *serve* the quam, not take us for a ride or two.



When did they approve your asylum application in Canada!!! It doesn't look like you've learned anything from this country or her system. Enjoying democracy in Pakistan and suggesting that they bag the system in Pakistan and establishment should come out with a "draw knife"    . Canadian peaceful democratic system didn't teach you jack it seemed like!!

Name a general, and allow me to tell you how they miss-managed the Pakistani system and the economy!! NS or other politicians didn't rule Pakistan for 60 years out of the 70 it existed for, the military did. And if you don't plan for the future of a country with growing population, decades in advance, you end up with today's Pakistan. Where its easy to blame the guy in the seat today and ignore the screw-ups of 6 decades by others!!

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## Paksanity

Viper0011. said:


> Name a general, and allow me to tell you how they miss-managed the Pakistani system and the economy!!



Air Marshal Nur Khan!

Now please tell us how he mismanaged the Pakistani system or failed to perform with honesty and integrity. I'm all ears.


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## alimobin memon

Viper0011. said:


> 1: Everyone in the history of Pakistan, involved in the defense deals, made millions. Take Mushy for example, how does his son own over $ 25 millions of secondary /joint hold owned real estate in the US? Similarly, Mushy has a bunch of other properties and business partnerships in the UK and even in Pakistan. Majority of which, yo guessed it, are with Ex-Generals or Senior Officers he dealt with during these defense deals. So there is no holly cow in these deals. In fact, this would be true for India, China and every other country too.
> 
> 2: JFT isn't a "money wasted", when it replaces the 250-300 Mirages, and F-7's its supposed to, you brought 60% of the PAF from obsolete second generation to the 4th with just 40% of the money compared to what would it really cost to do so. Plus, you by passed many foreign countries and you'll save billions in ongoing maintenance and expense.
> 
> 3: Remember, the JFT is not a -16 block 52 comparison. It's much stronger and capable than what its replacing. But you do need jets like the -16 block 52 and / or J-10C's or J-11's in decent numbers. And THEN add the J-31 for 5th gen. But for now, let's focus on conventional 4th -4.5th gen needs. J-10C has matured enough to be similar to Rafale, specially with the AESA. J-11D is also a great option.
> 
> 4: Funding situation, sooner or later, the FATA ops will stop. When that happens, a few billions being spent on there, will become available for other purposes. Plus, various economy and infrastructure related projects are near completion. One of the reasons that PAF is silent is due to the fact of JFT block III being a rename for a potential J-10C type of a plane where you are reusing what's already built and tested for years. So that would be real quick adoption. At this time, the real major issue is to finish infrastructure projects, start producing enough electricity, turn the keys on phase I of the CPEC and let the revenue flow. The J-10C orders can take any time, but if the PAF has her eyes on a better Western, Russian or a Chinese platform, it'll be 2018 before they can reassess the economic situation and hash-out a good few billions!!
> 
> The PAF should get used -16's in the meantime. But on the JFT, I think they should continue with Block II for now, but reconfigure a plant for J-10C type production under Block III. It'll be quicker to get those jets.


Dude exactly what other pdf members shud think (Y)


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## araz

Asli Lahori1 said:


> Defense Minister of that time was asking Million dollar a piece for releasing the funds.
> 
> 
> The worst decision PAF has ever made. Total waste of money on Jf-17. May be the just needed JF-17 to fight in FATA and North Waziristan .


It was not the defence minister but Zardari himself who was demanding money and the cost was not a million dollars but 10 million$ per plane. 
A

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## Asli Lahori1

araz said:


> It was not the defence minister but Zardari himself who was demanding money and the cost was not a million dollars but 10 million$ per plane.
> A



Thanks for correction


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## niaz

Asli Lahori1 said:


> Defense Minister of that time was asking Million dollar a piece for releasing the funds.
> 
> 
> The worst decision PAF has ever made. Total waste of money on Jf-17. May be the just needed JF-17 to fight in FATA and North Waziristan .



It appears that everyone in the forum has their personal likes & dislikes. Some people dislike F-16 essentially because it is American & everything from US should be discarded. Whereas for others it is the JF-17. Post quoted above calls Jf-17 as the “Worst decision ever made by PAF”.

No doubt even the best professionals have difference of opinion and one could possibly accept such comments by an ex-PAF fighter pilot who has flown many contemporary aircrafts and concluded that JF-17 performance is below par & hence would be a sitting duck in combat.

Additionally, since JF-17 is to be the ‘work horse’ of future PAF fleet; I would expect Honourable ‘Asli Lahori’ to back up such a strong condemnation of the PAF General Staff and the aircraft with concrete evidence. At the very least; a viable alternative that was available to Pakistan but was not taken up by the idiots at the PAF who pursued JF-17 instead; should be provided.

In my personal opinion; given the scarce resources available to the country and the fact that in case of any Western fighter; there would always be threat of sanctions; Thunder is the best aircraft that PAF could afford to acquire in large numbers. It may not be the ‘State of the art’ but still far superior to the Mig21’s & Mirage s that JF-17 is scheduled to replace.

This post reminds of a quote by famous sage Sh. Saadi who stated: 

Harkas ra aql-e-khood by kamaal me numayed wa aulad-e khwaish ba jamaal.

Meaning “Everyone considers his intellect to be excellent and his children beautiful.” This was said in 13th century but very true even today.

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## Quwa

Viper0011. said:


> 1: Everyone in the history of Pakistan, involved in the defense deals, made millions. Take Mushy for example, how does his son own over $ 25 millions of secondary /joint hold owned real estate in the US? Similarly, Mushy has a bunch of other properties and business partnerships in the UK and even in Pakistan. Majority of which, yo guessed it, are with Ex-Generals or Senior Officers he dealt with during these defense deals. So there is no holly cow in these deals. In fact, this would be true for India, China and every other country too.
> 
> 2: JFT isn't a "money wasted", when it replaces the 250-300 Mirages, and F-7's its supposed to, you brought 60% of the PAF from obsolete second generation to the 4th with just 40% of the money compared to what would it really cost to do so. Plus, you by passed many foreign countries and you'll save billions in ongoing maintenance and expense.
> 
> 3: Remember, the JFT is not a -16 block 52 comparison. It's much stronger and capable than what its replacing. But you do need jets like the -16 block 52 and / or J-10C's or J-11's in decent numbers. And THEN add the J-31 for 5th gen. But for now, let's focus on conventional 4th -4.5th gen needs. J-10C has matured enough to be similar to Rafale, specially with the AESA. J-11D is also a great option.
> 
> 4: Funding situation, sooner or later, the FATA ops will stop. When that happens, a few billions being spent on there, will become available for other purposes. Plus, various economy and infrastructure related projects are near completion. One of the reasons that PAF is silent is due to the fact of JFT block III being a rename for a potential J-10C type of a plane where you are reusing what's already built and tested for years. So that would be real quick adoption. At this time, the real major issue is to finish infrastructure projects, start producing enough electricity, turn the keys on phase I of the CPEC and let the revenue flow. The J-10C orders can take any time, but if the PAF has her eyes on a better Western, Russian or a Chinese platform, it'll be 2018 before they can reassess the economic situation and hash-out a good few billions!!
> 
> The PAF should get used -16's in the meantime. But on the JFT, I think they should continue with Block II for now, but reconfigure a plant for J-10C type production under Block III. It'll be quicker to get those jets.
> 
> 
> 
> When did they approve your asylum application in Canada!!! It doesn't look like you've learned anything from this country or her system. Enjoying democracy in Pakistan and suggesting that they bag the system in Pakistan and establishment should come out with a "draw knife"    . Canadian peaceful democratic system didn't teach you jack it seemed like!!
> 
> Name a general, and allow me to tell you how they miss-managed the Pakistani system and the economy!! NS or other politicians didn't rule Pakistan for 60 years out of the 70 it existed for, the military did. And if you don't plan for the future of a country with growing population, decades in advance, you end up with today's Pakistan. Where its easy to blame the guy in the seat today and ignore the screw-ups of 6 decades by others!!


Where did I say Pakistan should be ruled by generals? I simply said Pakistanis should be a drawn knife to their leaders, I.e. develop a culture of ruthless accountability and results driven focus. A country's leader - in general - is entrusted by the public with the power to greatly affect lives, in some cases even take them away. It's not a bloody joke or even a job, but a sanctified trust. If a leader - politician or general - is shown to be corrupt, inept, etc, then we should have zero tolerance for their continued leadership.

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## Viper0011.

araz said:


> It was not the defence minister but Zardari himself who was demanding money and the cost was not a million dollars but 10 million$ per plane.
> A




Zardari is a super cheap AHole. But everyone involved in these kinds of deals gets kick backs, just the way business is done in this industry. The main point is to focus on capability and even with kick backs, get the top end equipment. Not some cheap crap. As long as you do that, you are god.



Saqr said:


> Where did I say Pakistan should be ruled by generals? I simply said Pakistanis should be a drawn knife to their leaders, I.e. develop a culture of ruthless accountability and results driven focus.



You used the term "establishment", not the people. The PEOPLE can hold anyone accountable, whether politicians with 1000 seats in assemblies, or the military with 550k soldiers. 

The People and the Establishment are two opposite forces in a democratic system. When you suppress the People with Marshall laws, Tanks and with the Military rule, Dictators and an Establishment is given birth and then, that country's future is pretty dark, like the past 60 years of Pakistan.

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## Quwa

niaz said:


> It appears that everyone in the forum has their personal likes & dislikes. Some people dislike F-16 essentially because it is American & everything from US should be discarded. Whereas for others it is the JF-17. Post quoted above calls Jf-17 as the “Worst decision ever made by PAF”.
> 
> No doubt even the best professionals have difference of opinion and one could possibly accept such comments by an ex-PAF fighter pilot who has flown many contemporary aircrafts and concluded that JF-17 performance is below par & hence would be a sitting duck in combat.
> 
> Additionally, since JF-17 is to be the ‘work horse’ of future PAF fleet; I would expect Honourable ‘Asli Lahori’ to back up such a strong condemnation of the PAF General Staff and the aircraft with concrete evidence. At the very least; a viable alternative that was available to Pakistan but was not taken up by the idiots at the PAF who pursued JF-17 instead; should be provided.
> 
> In my personal opinion; given the scarce resources available to the country and the fact that in case of any Western fighter; there would always be threat of sanctions; Thunder is the best aircraft that PAF could afford to acquire in large numbers. It may not be the ‘State of the art’ but still far superior to the Mig21’s & Mirage s that JF-17 is scheduled to replace.
> 
> This post reminds of a quote by famous sage Sh. Saadi who stated:
> 
> Harkas ra aql-e-khood by kamaal me numayed wa aulad-e khwaish ba jamaal.
> 
> Meaning “Everyone considers his intellect to be excellent and his children beautiful.” This was said in 13th century but very true even today.


No dignified PAF officer ever said JF-17 is an amazing piece of machinery, but every one of those officers will say it is the perfect machine for the job it was designed to take on. This is a backbone fighter that is meant to carry the brunt of the PAF's daily operations. It is a substantive improvement over the platforms it is replacing. It has been equipped with modern day munitions and is capable of effectively using them, and it will benefit from up and coming munitions (e.g. HOBS AAM) as well. It's not the paragon of quality or technological prowess, but it is a credible means of aerial defence.



Viper0011. said:


> Zardari is a super cheap AHole. But everyone involved in these kinds of deals gets kick backs, just the way business is done in this industry. The main point is to focus on capability and even with kick backs, get the top end equipment. Not some cheap crap. As long as you do that, you are god.
> 
> 
> 
> You used the term "establishment", not the people. The PEOPLE can hold anyone accountable, whether politicians with 1000 seats in assemblies, or the military with 550k soldiers.
> 
> The People and the Establishment are two opposite forces in a democratic system. When you suppress the People with Marshall laws, Tanks and with the Military rule, Dictators and an Establishment is given birth and then, that country's future is pretty dark, like the past 60 years of Pakistan.


This is what I said, let me know exactly how you got to the above conclusion, I'm intrigued.

"_We need to hold the security establishment to account as well, ideally with a drawn knife, so that these bloody suits and stars learn to *serve* the quam, not take us for a ride or two_."

Source: Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2 | Page 618

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## Viper0011.

Paksanity said:


> Air Marshal Nur Khan!
> 
> Now please tell us how he mismanaged the Pakistani system or failed to perform with honesty and integrity. I'm all ears.



Air Marshal's don't count. PAF and PN get like a fraction of the budget....start with the Army Chiefs. Second, the 60 year past I referred to, was a cumulative reference of a time where the military guys in rule, didn't do anything for the people of Pakistan, in terms of growth, prosperity, future planning for job creation, education, better health, electric and water needs, and all.



Saqr said:


> "_We need to hold the security establishment to account as well, ideally with a drawn knife, so that these bloody suits and stars learn to *serve* the quam, not take us for a ride or two_."



I like your little quote.

By the way, plenty of senior officers in the PAF think highly of the JFT, in terms of the capability, infrastructure and production knowledge it brought to the Pakistani society. 

You think the F-7's were a great jet when the Chinese developed it? Initially, it was a 75% copy of Mig-21. BUT, it setup the infrastructure for future R&D and know how of jet manufacturing. Now the Chinese are producing Stealth jets!!! But in comparison, the JFT is a 4th Gen jet. So compared to the above example, Pakistan is starting its R&D baseline with 4th gen (current standard), which is MUCH more advanced then the F-7 that China started from!!! This is a critical point and I hope you get the picture.

Always look at the bigger picture, the machines, equipment and all scientific processes and tech used in the JFT, isn't a whole lot different than producing an FC-20 or Rafale (obviously tech base is different). But 10 years from now, if Pak grew economically as expected, and poured in a couple of billions into R&D, what makes you think she couldn't produce a 5th gen design (similar to advanced JFT or J-31) on their own?

Again, take a look at the bigger picture. Pakistanis on here, in general are VERY short sighted. Everything has to be done today, or the world will end. Now back to the top of my post, if some general had the business, economy or strategy background 50 or 30 years ago, and had setup a baseline fighter similar to a JFT back then, today, you would be producing Rafale class jets. But no one cared to think for the future and plan for it. It is ALL happening now!!

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## araz

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> You just created a " horde " of enemies on this board---. Welcome to the club.


"Qais jungle main akaila hai mujhe jaane do
Khoob guzray gee jo mil baityain gay deewanay do"

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## CHI RULES

mingle said:


> Ali that what make sence to me reason is F16 V is different aircraft than we have plus it looks like LK Martin introduce a cheaper version of F35 for the countries who cant afford it .there r many countries who got hundrads of F16s but cant afford F35 to replace them so this become cheaper version of F35 same tech tickle down into V .i Beleive if that is case according to jane then F16 gonna stay with PAF for another 25 to 30 yrs i hope that Lockhead move its some assembly to pak if pak look to replace all MLU and addtional F16 .Not Good news for india cold water on theior Rafele .This would cheaper fifth generation solution for pak from america to replace its F16s older ones .rest inagree with u but remember Anericans r bussinessman when its comes to money they all one they see juice in pak airforce u will see how they will pass it through congress like AH1z vipers did anybody object ?none except Hussain Haqqani



It is neither feasible for Lockhead nor shall be allowed by Israeli/Indian strategists there. Further even after upgrades we should not make F16 another Mirage for PAF as we may not be able to replace them when required due to large numbers. We should keep the F16 numbers not more than 110 to 120 with V class upgrades in our Block 40 and Block 50/52 relatively new F16s if we can afford and allowed by USA. I personally still think that USA may not provide AESA upgrade or latest IRST pods to Pak. We have one solution which is to continuously upgrade our JF17 especially with AESA and IRST pods along with stealth features. Every thing will be clear in near future.


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## Imran Khan

niaz said:


> It appears that everyone in the forum has their personal likes & dislikes. Some people dislike F-16 essentially because it is American & everything from US should be discarded. Whereas for others it is the JF-17. Post quoted above calls Jf-17 as the “Worst decision ever made by PAF”.
> 
> No doubt even the best professionals have difference of opinion and one could possibly accept such comments by an ex-PAF fighter pilot who has flown many contemporary aircrafts and concluded that JF-17 performance is below par & hence would be a sitting duck in combat.
> 
> Additionally, since JF-17 is to be the ‘work horse’ of future PAF fleet; I would expect Honourable ‘Asli Lahori’ to back up such a strong condemnation of the PAF General Staff and the aircraft with concrete evidence. At the very least; a viable alternative that was available to Pakistan but was not taken up by the idiots at the PAF who pursued JF-17 instead; should be provided.
> 
> In my personal opinion; given the scarce resources available to the country and the fact that in case of any Western fighter; there would always be threat of sanctions; Thunder is the best aircraft that PAF could afford to acquire in large numbers. It may not be the ‘State of the art’ but still far superior to the Mig21’s & Mirage s that JF-17 is scheduled to replace.
> 
> This post reminds of a quote by famous sage Sh. Saadi who stated:
> 
> Harkas ra aql-e-khood by kamaal me numayed wa aulad-e khwaish ba jamaal.
> 
> Meaning “Everyone considers his intellect to be excellent and his children beautiful.” This was said in 13th century but very true even today.


what if i say i love both ? its haram and i will be kaffir sir ?

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## Paksanity

Viper0011. said:


> Air Marshal's don't count. PAF and PN get like a fraction of the budget....start with the Army Chiefs. Second, the 60 year past I referred to, was a cumulative reference of a time where the military guys in rule, didn't do anything for the people of Pakistan, in terms of growth, prosperity, future planning for job creation, education, better health, electric and water needs, and all.




Does this count?








I must tell you that I remain in contact with less privileged all the time and realities of life are raw and unrevealed to them. Boy, do they hate civil politicians? You live in US and see things from their prism, democracy -human rights and all that. A person living in a village doesn't give a damn. His problems are real life problems and I can tell you with great certainty that a common man is exploited and robbed of his earnings at every step of his life by these democratic leaders you speak of so passionately. Every year when crops are growing our beloved democratic leaders stockpile fertilisers and seeds. Farmers get them at exorbitant prices after begging at their doors. When crops are ready, the beloved democratic leaders issue orders that nobody can transport his produce outside the area. Police and civil administration won't allow them to take it to free market. They are forced to sell it at democratic leader's factories in that area at much lower price. Do you know this year we had an extraordinary rice crop? And farmers have nowhere to sell them? The beloved democratic government won't buy it because Sharif's family is not in this business and they won't allow other businesses to flourish!

It is easy to pass judgements sitting in US. Come live here. Live the life of unprivileged Pakistani citizen. Plough a field here or herd a few sheep's or work at a factory and you will know how democratic leaders suck the nation dry. There is a reason people love military here. Don't you dare judge them sitting in US.

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## MastanKhan

Hi

This saga of JF 17 reminded me of a story I reaf around 45 years ago in my 6-8th grade class.

A simple villager Jat / Dehati went to see a clever Hakeem----. The patient claimed to have stomach ache. The hakeem on inquiry found out that the villager had eaten some bread that was burnt.

But instead of giving something to soothe the pain----the sarcastic and mean Hakeem gave the patient some Kajol / Surm to put in his eyes so that he can see better.

Now this leads me to a silly joke----it is a rascist joke---so I will stop here.

The issue is that the JF 17 was not the need of the hour. The J F 17 project was for an air force that had some free time at its hands and no threats at its borders.

What had supposedly happened was that the threat was there---but the threat analyzers got confused with some minor developments taking place in the arena---a bad decision led to another----and it was downhill from then onwards.

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## RAMPAGE

@Bratva @Windjammer

I was informed that not all of the F-16s have gone through MLU. Can you please confirm that. If not, why?


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## MastanKhan

Viper0011. said:


> Zardari is a super cheap AHole. But everyone involved in these kinds of deals gets kick backs, just the way business is done in this industry. The main point is to focus on capability and even with kick backs, get the top end equipment. Not some cheap crap. As long as you do that, you are god.
> 
> 
> 
> You used the term "establishment", not the people. The PEOPLE can hold anyone accountable, whether politicians with 1000 seats in assemblies, or the military with 550k soldiers.
> 
> The People and the Establishment are two opposite forces in a democratic system. When you suppress the People with Marshall laws, Tanks and with the Military rule, Dictators and an Establishment is given birth and then, that country's future is pretty dark, like the past 60 years of Pakistan.




@Viper0011.

My assessment is that you NEVER stop a major weapons purchase because of asking of kick backs if there is nothing wrong with the weapon itself and is much needed----.

The reason being that it has taken you a few years ( unless you are Egypt and your name is Gen. Sissi ) to analyze and rate the system. It will take you a few more years to get it and operate it as well.

Now if you stop----you are going backwards---the funds that you have available are going to be wasted and the whole program is going to fail.

The best thing would have been to have carried on with the purchase and then found ways to punish that man getting kickbacks----the best way would have been to have him executed / assassinated---.

But just to stop the purchase is a no no----. That is tantamount to treason by itself---.

You guys should remember the BOFORS scandal----supposedly full of kick backs---but when the time came---those heavy guns did the job they were meant to do----.

That moment was priceless and vindicated everyone involved.

Pakistani children need to learn---deceit and deception---larceny and connivance is not only done to steal land and take bribes but is also used to strengthen the country as well.

Being honest is not enough----unless you are not a bit of a rascal inside----you have to have some larceny in you as well to protect the interests of the state.

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## ConcealCarry

These politicians come from within the "Quam" if politicians are corrupt, that means "Quam" itself is corrupt which has failed in the last 70 years to produce even one honest and competent politician, and If that is the case then why blame politicians, why not the nation (Quam)?



Saqr said:


> How does not wanting Sharif suddenly translate into wanting Zardari and Gilani? I don't want any of these clowns in charge of the economy. I'd rather hire a real clown to do it over these people. Heck, I'll hire a gorilla with an adopted 25 year old mentally challenged blind man with a pet weasel suffering from an amputated leg, to mange our economy.
> 
> Pakistanis need to make Pakistan incredibly hostile for the politicians, as it is the politicians in general who mis-manage the economic portfolio. We need to hold the security establishment to account as well, ideally with a drawn knife, so that these bloody suits and stars learn to *serve* the quam, not take us for a ride or two.


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## Quwa

ConcealCarry said:


> These politicians come from within the "Quam" if politicians are corrupt, that means "Quam" itself is corrupt which has failed in the last 70 years to produce even one honest and competent politician, and If that is the case then why blame politicians, why not the nation (Quam)?


Sure, but in the end the quam needs to start getting serious and not being complacent about corrupt politicians. The blame runs both ways, I agree.

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## Viper0011.

MastanKhan said:


> @Viper0011.
> 
> My assessment is that you NEVER stop a major weapons purchase because of asking of kick backs if there is nothing wrong with the weapon itself and is much needed----.
> 
> The reason being that it has taken you a few years ( unless you are Egypt and your name is Gen. Sissi ) to analyze and rate the system. It will take you a few more years to get it and operate it as well.
> 
> Now if you stop----you are going backwards---the funds that you have available are going to be wasted and the whole program is going to fail.
> 
> The best thing would have been to have carried on with the purchase and then found ways to punish that man getting kickbacks.



MK, you hit it right on the head. You are right, let's take an example, in Gen. Zia's time, when the -16's were being considered (along with Mirages, a little later), let's say, LM's sales guy told Zia that they'd give 1% back (this is not a real life truth, so please don't start speculating a dead man's past, that's not nice).

So by buying these jets, do you think they made a mistake? Hell no. Even with "refunds" or "gifts" (the term used in these situations), you are STILL getting a top end jet. Frankly speaking, if Mushy had gotten 60 or 80 -16, block 52 for Pakistan, and had made those millions, I'd be the LAST person to get upset over it. As the benefits of such a platform literally outweigh any kick back that might've been given. Corruption is everywhere, Indian defense deals are filled with them too. But, like you said, the goal is to still get the best thing out of it for your country. If Mushy brought Mig-27's or Tornados with kick backs (instead of -16 block 52), I'd be royally pissed as Pakistan needed the -16's.

In the West, when a CEO comes, he brings his own team. He also brings his own agenda on how he'll take a business forward. In that, he brings the consulting partners and product companies that he likes. Everyone knows that there is a "relationship" between him and these companies he brought that can be doing billions worth of business. But, the business as a whole goes forward, grows and creates more profitability and growth for everyone. That's what you need to have, better end results for a business, or a country. Everyone grows and makes progress in life in this situation, as long as the leader made sincere calls, even with "gifts" involved!!

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## niaz

Viper0011. said:


> Again, take a look at the bigger picture. Pakistanis on here, in general are VERY short sighted. Everything has to be done today, or the world will end. Now back to the top of my post, if some general had the business, economy or strategy background 50 or 30 years ago, and had setup a baseline fighter similar to a JFT back then, today, you would be producing Rafale class jets. But no one cared to think for the future and plan for it. It is ALL happening now!!



I agree with most your post except the last part quoted above.

Modern fighter aircrafts are such sophisticated & complex machines that except for a privileged few; 100 years’ experience in aviation construction & pouring billions of dollars in R & D, does not guarantee that a country would be able to design & manufacture all components required for the state of the 4+ generation fighter aircraft such as Rafael, Typhoon or SU-35.

UK & Germany & Italy were pioneers in aircraft, aero engine manufacture & avionic/radar technology. But they had to pool their resources to come up with Tornado & Typhoon. Japanese Zero fighter was as good as any in WW2 but their aircraft industry is no match with the US, French or the Russian’s. Dutch, who were making excellent Fokker aircrafts have now given up?

Sweden has been manufacturing aircraft for a long time but still has to rely on US- General Electic F404 engine produced under licence for the Grippen fighter.

HAL as Hindustan aircraft was founded in 1940 and renamed as Hindustan Aeronautic in 1964. It was involved in the development of Marut as well as manufacture of Mig-21 under licence since the 1960’s. However without EL/M-2052 fire control radar developed by Israel and the General Electric F404 engine; Tejas would not become operational.

China which spent about 2.5% of its GDP on R&D (almost $300-billion) in 2014 had to purchase RD-93 engine for JF-17 from Russia.

Unable to copy it, China tries building own jet engine| Reuters

Therefore even if Pakistan had started manufacturing jets 30 or 50 years ago under licence; we simply don’t have the resources required for designing & manufacture an indigenous modern fighter jet.

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## fatman17

Quote of the Day

I have flown in just about everything, with all kinds of pilots in all parts of the world -- British, French, Pakistani, Iranian, Japanese, Chinese -- and there wasn't a dime's worth of difference between any of them except for one unchanging, certain fact: the best, most skillful pilot has the most experience.

-- Chuck Yeager

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## Quwa

RAMPAGE said:


> @Bratva @Windjammer
> 
> I was informed that not all of the F-16s have gone through MLU. Can you please confirm that. If not, why?


The only ones that haven't to my knowledge are the ones we got from Jordan.

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## gambit

fatman17 said:


> Quote of the Day
> 
> I have flown in just about everything, with all kinds of pilots in all parts of the world -- British, French, Pakistani, Iranian, Japanese, Chinese -- and there wasn't a dime's worth of difference between any of them except for one unchanging, certain fact: the best, most skillful pilot has the most experience.
> 
> -- Chuck Yeager


Experience is a double edged sword and what the good general did not say, probably because it is assumed, is that experience without examination, from self and from without, is a disaster.

There are two man-machine pairings that offers a person the quickest way to entrenched bad habits: man and motorcycle and man and airplane.

Either way, you *WILL* develop bad habits. The top motorcycle racers and the most skillful pilots are the ones who are most introspective about their skills. Confidence does not mean no doubts. In fact, true confidence is about knowing one's doubts and weaknesses and be able to overcome them. An action may give a pilot the result he want, but does that mean that action cannot be made more efficient and faster ? Usually, the action, whether it a specific maneuver or how to reconfigure the radar from environment to environment or how to land in a cross wind, can always be performed more efficiently, meaning using less effort to get the same result as before.

When people use the word 'fighter', they tossed aside the most important item that make that aircraft a fighter -- the pilot. Different platforms have different flight characteristics that will manifest themselves only in stressful flights. One hundred hrs of flying against the same fighter will not equal, in terms of gained skills and combat insights, of 50 hrs against different fighters. And those 50 hrs will expose every bad habits a pilot has. That means the pilot who have the 50 hrs is the more experienced than the pilot who have the 100 hrs.

The most skillful pilots in the wing, regardless of nationality, are always the ones who are the most self critical beyond what the classroom taught. They are always aware that an action repeated can unwittingly lay the ground for a bad habit, and that the only way to discover if one have developed a bad habit is to be challenged to the point where said action can no longer serve one's purpose. So generally speaking, if experience can develop and entrench bad habits, then only experience can break those bad habits and create good ones.

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## Windjammer

In for a penny, in for a pound, the source @ alamy are selling prints of this, PAF F-16 releasing flares on 6 September 2015 Defence Day Show, for £15.00 a copy.

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## fatman17

F-16 Fighting Falcon NewsF-16V Takes Flight

October 21, 2015 (by John Losinger) - Lockheed Martin successfully completed the maiden flight of the F-16V, the latest and most advanced F-16 on the market.

The maiden flight of the F-16V (Former RoCAF F-16A block 20 #93702), the latest version of the F-16 was completed on October 16, 2015. The flight marked the first time an F-16 has flown with Northrop Grumman’s advanced APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array Scalable Agile Beam Radar. [Photo by Randy Crites]

The October 16 flight marks the first time an F-16 has flown with Northrop Grumman’s advanced APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR), which will deliver a quantum leap in capability for the venerable F-16.

The F-16V “Viper” advanced avionics configuration also includes a new cockpit Center Pedestal Display, a modernized mission computer, a high-capacity Ethernet data bus, and several other missions systems enhancements that collectively add significant combat capabilities to address the dynamic threat environments emerging in the coming decades.

“This flight marks a historic milestone in the evolution of the F-16,” said Rod McLean, vice president and general manager of Lockheed Martin’s F-16/F-22 Integrated Fighter Group. “The new F-16V configuration includes numerous enhancements designed to keep the F-16 at the forefront of international security, strengthening its position as the world’s foremost combat-proven 4th Generation fighter aircraft.”

The F-16V, an option for both new production F-16s and F-16 upgrades, is the next generation configuration that leverages a common worldwide sustainment infrastructure and provides significant capability improvements to the world’s most affordable, combat-proven multi-role fighter.

Northrop Grumman’s APG-83 SABR AESA fire control radar provides 5th Generation air-to-air and air-to-ground radar capability. Northrop Grumman also provides AESA radars for the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II.


Courtesy of Lockheed Martin Corporation

Related articles:Lockheed Martin tries to get Indonesia interested in the F-16V (2015-10-07)Scalable Agile Beam Radar brings advanced capabilities to F-16 FleetLockheed Martin selects Northrop Grumman's SABR for the F-16 AESA Radar Upgrade Program (2013-07-31)Raytheon wins RoKAF F-16 radar upgrade competition (2013-04-11)Lockheed Martin awarded upgrade contract for 145 RoCAF F-16s (2012-10-01)F-16 Fighting Falcon news archive
Forum discussion:First F-16V flight

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## keneth32

Turkey that has got license to produce these fighter aircraft has agreed to assist Pakistan in building a setup to overhaul these aircraft purchased from the United States at Kamra Aeronautical Complex. This facility would go a long way in improving the country's air defence capability and Pakistan would come in a position to overhaul its F-16 fleet like *Miraj*  and F-7. Moreover, it will be able to bring in action its obsolete F-16 aircraft that could not be overhauled due to a lack of this facility in Pakistan. Earlier Pakistan could not afford to send the fighter jets to the United States for overhauls at a very high cost.

Due to lack of maintenance and overhauls of these costly and most modern fighters Pakistan had ground a number of its aircraft. Pakistan Air Force (PAF) received eighteen overhauled and refurbished F-16 from USA by this year under the EAD programme.[/QUOTE]



Arsalan said:


> yes but the relation between pakistan and russia are getting better, russia cannot afford to lose chines market and we together with the chines offer double the scope of trade that india offers! i had these figures with me but cannot find them at the moment but i will post them as i find them again, but the thing was that totall potential russian exports to china and pakistan was more than two times the potential of India. so if china support us in this venture it wonmt be difficult.





keneth32 said:


> Turkey that has got license to produce these fighter aircraft has agreed to assist Pakistan in building a setup to overhaul these aircraft purchased from the United States at Kamra Aeronautical Complex. This facility would go a long way in improving the country's air defence capability and Pakistan would come in a position to overhaul its F-16 fleet like *Miraj*  and F-7. Moreover, it will be able to bring in action its obsolete F-16 aircraft that could not be overhauled due to a lack of this facility in Pakistan. Earlier Pakistan could not afford to send the fighter jets to the United States for overhauls at a very high cost.
> 
> Due to lack of maintenance and overhauls of these costly and most modern fighters Pakistan had ground a number of its aircraft. Pakistan Air Force (PAF) received eighteen overhauled and refurbished F-16 from USA by this year under the EAD programme.


[/QUOTE]



gambit said:


> Experience is a double edged sword and what the good general did not say, probably because it is assumed, is that experience without examination, from self and from without, is a disaster.
> 
> There are two man-machine pairings that offers a person the quickest way to entrenched bad habits: man and motorcycle and man and airplane.
> 
> Either way, you *WILL* develop bad habits. The top motorcycle racers and the most skillful pilots are the ones who are most introspective about their skills. Confidence does not mean no doubts. In fact, true confidence is about knowing one's doubts and weaknesses and be able to overcome them. An action may give a pilot the result he want, but does that mean that action cannot be made more efficient and faster ? Usually, the action, whether it a specific maneuver or how to reconfigure the radar from environment to environment or how to land in a cross wind, can always be performed more efficiently, meaning using less effort to get the same result as before.
> 
> When people use the word 'fighter', they tossed aside the most important item that make that aircraft a fighter -- the pilot. Different platforms have different flight characteristics that will manifest themselves only in stressful flights. One hundred hrs of flying against the same fighter will not equal, in terms of gained skills and combat insights, of 50 hrs against different fighters. And those 50 hrs will expose every bad habits a pilot has. That means the pilot who have the 50 hrs is the more experienced than the pilot who have the 100 hrs.
> 
> The most skillful pilots in the wing, regardless of nationality, are always the ones who are the most self critical beyond what the classroom taught. They are always aware that an action repeated can unwittingly lay the ground for a bad habit, and that the only way to discover if one have developed a bad habit is to be challenged to the point where said action can no longer serve one's purpose. So generally speaking, if experience can develop and entrench bad habits, then only experience can break those bad habits and create good ones.


yes but the relation between pakistan and russia are getting better, russia cannot afford to lose chines market and we together with the chines offer double the scope of trade that india offers! i had these figures with me but cannot find them at the moment but i will post them as i find them again, but the thing was that totall potential russian exports to china and pakistan was more than two times the potential of India. so if china support us in this venture it wonmt be difficult.

Source: Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2 | Page 620



fatman17 said:


> Quote of the Day
> 
> I have flown in just about everything, with all kinds of pilots in all parts of the world -- British, French, Pakistani, Iranian, Japanese, Chinese -- and there wasn't a dime's worth of difference between any of them except for one unchanging, certain fact: the best, most skillful pilot has the most experience.
> 
> -- Chuck Yeager


Turkey that has got license to produce these fighter aircraft has agreed to assist Pakistan in building a setup to overhaul these aircraft purchased from the United States at Kamra Aeronautical Complex. This facility would go a long way in improving the country's air defence capability and Pakistan would come in a position to overhaul its F-16 fleet like *Miraj*  and F-7. Moreover, it will be able to bring in action its obsolete F-16 aircraft that could not be overhauled due to a lack of this facility in Pakistan. Earlier Pakistan could not afford to send the fighter jets to the United States for overhauls at a very high cost.

Source: Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2 | Page 620



keneth32 said:


> Turkey that has got license to produce these fighter aircraft has agreTurkey that has got license to produce these fighter aircraft has agreed to assist Pakistan in building a setup to overhaul these aircraft purchased from the United States at Kamra Aeronautical Complex. This facility would go a long way in improving the country's air defence capability and Pakistan would come in a position to overhaul its F-16 fleet like *Miraj*  and F-7. Moreover, it will be able to bring in action its obsolete F-16 aircraft that could not be overhauled due to a lack of this facility in Pakistan. Earlier Pakistan could not afford to send the fighter jets to the United States for overhauls at a very high cost.
> 
> Source: Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2 | Page 620
> ed to assist Pakistan in building a setup to overhaul these aircraft purchased from the United States at Kamra Aeronautical Complex. This facility would go a long way in improving the country's air defence capability and Pakistan would come in a position to overhaul its F-16 fleet like *Miraj*  and F-7. Moreover, it will be able to bring in action its obsolete F-16 aircraft that could not be overhauled due to a lack of this facility in Pakistan. Earlier Pakistan could not afford to send the fighter jets to the United States for overhauls at a very high cost.
> 
> Due to lack of maintenance and overhauls of these costly and most modern fighters Pakistan had ground a number of its aircraft. Pakistan Air Force (PAF) received eighteen overhauled and refurbished F-16 from USA by this year under the EAD programme.





[/QUOTE]


yes but the relation between pakistan and russia are getting better, russia cannot afford to lose chines market and we together with the chines offer double the scope of trade that india offers! i had these figures with me but cannot find them at the moment but i will post them as i find them again, but the thing was that totall potential russian exports to china and pakistan was more than two times the potential of India. so if china support us in this venture it wonmt be difficult.

Source: Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2 | Page 620


Turkey that has got license to produce these fighter aircraft has agreed to assist Pakistan in building a setup to overhaul these aircraft purchased from the United States at Kamra Aeronautical Complex. This facility would go a long way in improving the country's air defence capability and Pakistan would come in a position to overhaul its F-16 fleet like *Miraj*  and F-7. Moreover, it will be able to bring in action its obsolete F-16 aircraft that could not be overhauled due to a lack of this facility in Pakistan. Earlier Pakistan could not afford to send the fighter jets to the United States for overhauls at a very high cost.

Source: Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2 | Page 620[/QUOTE]


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## Sinnerman108

On a related note, the following:

Critique of Pure Reason - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

_



Before Kant, it was generally held that truths of reason must be analytic, meaning that what is stated in the predicate must already be present in the subject (for example, "An intelligent man is intelligent" or "An intelligent man is a man"). In either case, the judgment is analytic because it is ascertained by analyzing the subject. It was thought that all truths of reason, or necessary truths, are of this kind: that in all of them there is a predicate that is only part of the subject of which it is asserted. If this were so, attempting to deny anything that could be known a priori (for example, "An intelligent man is not intelligent" or "An intelligent man is not a man") would involve a contradiction. It was therefore thought that the law of contradiction is sufficient to establish all a priori knowledge.

Click to expand...

_

Here's another way to look at Experience.
It is the result of several experiments that we do, and our mind learns.
The longer the experience, the greater is the body of rules that a new paradigm has to go through before being responded to.

i.e The greater the experience, the higher will be the inertia to react. 




gambit said:


> Experience is a double edged sword and what the good general did not say, probably because it is assumed, is that experience without examination, from self and from without, is a disaster.
> 
> There are two man-machine pairings that offers a person the quickest way to entrenched bad habits: man and motorcycle and man and airplane.
> 
> Either way, you *WILL* develop bad habits. The top motorcycle racers and the most skillful pilots are the ones who are most introspective about their skills. Confidence does not mean no doubts. In fact, true confidence is about knowing one's doubts and weaknesses and be able to overcome them. An action may give a pilot the result he want, but does that mean that action cannot be made more efficient and faster ? Usually, the action, whether it a specific maneuver or how to reconfigure the radar from environment to environment or how to land in a cross wind, can always be performed more efficiently, meaning using less effort to get the same result as before.
> 
> When people use the word 'fighter', they tossed aside the most important item that make that aircraft a fighter -- the pilot. Different platforms have different flight characteristics that will manifest themselves only in stressful flights. One hundred hrs of flying against the same fighter will not equal, in terms of gained skills and combat insights, of 50 hrs against different fighters. And those 50 hrs will expose every bad habits a pilot has. That means the pilot who have the 50 hrs is the more experienced than the pilot who have the 100 hrs.
> 
> The most skillful pilots in the wing, regardless of nationality, are always the ones who are the most self critical beyond what the classroom taught. They are always aware that an action repeated can unwittingly lay the ground for a bad habit, and that the only way to discover if one have developed a bad habit is to be challenged to the point where said action can no longer serve one's purpose. So generally speaking, if experience can develop and entrench bad habits, then only experience can break those bad habits and create good ones.


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## Windjammer



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## gambit

Sinnerman108 said:


> i.e The greater the experience, the higher will be the inertia to react.


The USAF is always searching for ways to introduce new ideas that will challenge the current modes of thoughts before they becomes 'conventional wisdom', which becomes 'institutional inertia'.

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## nomi007

paf f-16 using
tri racket

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## fatman17

Viper Driver Flying Hours
Sqn.Ldr. Sajjad "Patriot" Yousafzai


Viper Driver

Name
Sqn.Ldr.Sajjad "Patriot" Yousafzai
Country
Pakistan 
Unit
9th squadron "Griffins"Flying F-16s from 2009 until 2015
Viper Hours1000 F-16 Flying Hours1,000 Hours#2423 on the 1K list
Unit 9th squadron "Griffins"
Flying Hours on other aircraft
AT-38 TalonHours100

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## hassan1



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## Hammad ur Rehman

In my opinion Pakistan should reject the offer of 8 F-16s unless the quantity is raised to full squadron strength of 18 with AESA radars & AESA upgrade of Block 52s while there avionics going to the yet to be released 12-14 Block 15 OCU from the USN.


hassan1 said:


> View attachment 272567

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## nomi007

Hammad ur Rehman said:


> In my opinion Pakistan should reject the offer of 8 F-16s unless the quantity is raised to full squadron strength of 18 with AESA radars & AESA upgrade of Block 52s while there avionics going to the yet to be released 12-14 Block 15 OCU from the USN.


muft masvare ka sukaria
sukar karo
8 aur f-16s mil rahe hain


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## A2Z

Asifkamal said:


> In 1999, clinton offered Pakistan grippen for not doing nuclear tests.


Dude we conducted nuclear tests in 1998. How come Clinton offered us Gripens in 1999 and ask for not conducting the tests that had already been done?


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## Asifkamal

Okey. That offer was , just to stop us from nuclear tests. You are right. It was 1998


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## Arsalan

fatman17 said:


> F-16 Fighting Falcon NewsF-16V Takes Flight
> 
> October 21, 2015 (by John Losinger) - Lockheed Martin successfully completed the maiden flight of the F-16V, the latest and most advanced F-16 on the market.
> 
> The maiden flight of the F-16V (Former RoCAF F-16A block 20 #93702), the latest version of the F-16 was completed on October 16, 2015. The flight marked the first time an F-16 has flown with Northrop Grumman’s advanced APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array Scalable Agile Beam Radar. [Photo by Randy Crites]
> 
> The October 16 flight marks the first time an F-16 has flown with Northrop Grumman’s advanced APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR), which will deliver a quantum leap in capability for the venerable F-16.
> 
> The F-16V “Viper” advanced avionics configuration also includes a new cockpit Center Pedestal Display, a modernized mission computer, a high-capacity Ethernet data bus, and several other missions systems enhancements that collectively add significant combat capabilities to address the dynamic threat environments emerging in the coming decades.
> 
> “This flight marks a historic milestone in the evolution of the F-16,” said Rod McLean, vice president and general manager of Lockheed Martin’s F-16/F-22 Integrated Fighter Group. “The new F-16V configuration includes numerous enhancements designed to keep the F-16 at the forefront of international security, strengthening its position as the world’s foremost combat-proven 4th Generation fighter aircraft.”
> 
> The F-16V, an option for both new production F-16s and F-16 upgrades, is the next generation configuration that leverages a common worldwide sustainment infrastructure and provides significant capability improvements to the world’s most affordable, combat-proven multi-role fighter.
> 
> Northrop Grumman’s APG-83 SABR AESA fire control radar provides 5th Generation air-to-air and air-to-ground radar capability. Northrop Grumman also provides AESA radars for the F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II.
> 
> 
> Courtesy of Lockheed Martin Corporation
> 
> Related articles:Lockheed Martin tries to get Indonesia interested in the F-16V (2015-10-07)Scalable Agile Beam Radar brings advanced capabilities to F-16 FleetLockheed Martin selects Northrop Grumman's SABR for the F-16 AESA Radar Upgrade Program (2013-07-31)Raytheon wins RoKAF F-16 radar upgrade competition (2013-04-11)Lockheed Martin awarded upgrade contract for 145 RoCAF F-16s (2012-10-01)F-16 Fighting Falcon news archive
> Forum discussion:First F-16V flight


The F-16 is here to stay for a significant amount of time no matter how much we talk about 5th generation. A Hell of a machine. If we can make JF-17 work and develop half of what we see with F-16 evolution, being sort of the role model(F-16 being the primary fighter the JF-17 look up to i would say) we would have done an awesome job and developed a machines to meet our needs for years.


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## Sulman Badshah



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## The Eagle

Beauty


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## TOPGUN

What's layout in the pic's ? weapons , pods etc .


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## IrbiS

TOPGUN said:


> What's layout in the pic's ? weapons , pods etc .



AIM-120C5 AMRAAM, 2,000lbs LGB( last pic), JDAM ( 2nd last pic), Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod ( Dark Colored ), UTC/Goodrich DB-110 Recce pod ( light colored )

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## Sulman Badshah

IrbiS said:


> UTC/Goodrich DB-110 Recce pod ( light colored )


ALQ 211 V9 ECM pod

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## Battle Axe

My romance never finds it muse here. How much have all of us wanted to see PAF complete their 100-120 F-16 dream but it's been YEARS and there's no news. Those 18, thank God, we got our hands onto those timely: future looks grim here with F-16s.

I totally believe PAF should either get straight with government and draw a practical roadmap to 120 birds program as 6 F-16 squadrons completed by a double Thunders look amazing till 2030 for our region.

But if there's nothing coming, better put all this effort into MIG-35, J-10 and Block III thunders. The F-16 thing, although the best case scenario may just prove to be a US Naval Ship that was promised but never turned up.


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## Quwa

Battle Axe said:


> My romance never finds it muse here. How much have all of us wanted to see PAF complete their 100-120 F-16 dream but it's been YEARS and there's no news. Those 18, thank God, we got our hands onto those timely: future looks grim here with F-16s.
> 
> I totally believe PAF should either get straight with government and draw a practical roadmap to 120 birds program as 6 F-16 squadrons completed by a double Thunders look amazing till 2030 for our region.
> 
> But if there's nothing coming, better put all this effort into MIG-35, J-10 and Block III thunders. The F-16 thing, although the best case scenario may just prove to be a US Naval Ship that was promised but never turned up.


To be fair, if the 8 new F-16s pull through, then the PAF would be at 84~86 birds, not too far from 100-120, especially if more incremental orders are made.


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## denel

Between actively canvassing older units from NATO countries and newer units in incremental units should be the strategy until a golden number of 120 odd is reached.

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## Viper0011.

Battle Axe said:


> My romance never finds it muse here. How much have all of us wanted to see PAF complete their 100-120 F-16 dream but it's been YEARS and there's no news. Those 18, thank God, we got our hands onto those timely: future looks grim here with F-16s.
> 
> I totally believe PAF should either get straight with government and draw a practical roadmap to 120 birds program as 6 F-16 squadrons completed by a double Thunders look amazing till 2030 for our region.
> 
> But if there's nothing coming, better put all this effort into MIG-35, J-10 and Block III thunders. The F-16 thing, although the best case scenario may just prove to be a US Naval Ship that was promised but never turned up.




So you get everything from the US, but the negativity never ends. Was the comment about one stupid Naval ship a must have here? When the US has provided billions of dollars worth of weapons outside of it? Believe it or not, many "Think Tanks", don't go to Pakistan and live with the locals to understand the negative sentiment towards the Americans. They go through websites like these and clearly see how negative you guys are towards the US, no matter what or how much the US does for your country!!

By writing things like these, when you are buying more F-16's from the SAME US, just shows hypocrisy, double standards and at times, a nation without a logical thought process. When you write on here, MANY readers across the globe, judge your intentions towards their respective nations, based on these posts. So you may be creating a VERY negative image of yourself and your country. Always be positive and remain fact-full. Writing negativity or hatred, never accomplishes anything!!

Back to the post, this 8 is just one order. I think as soon as some more investments and business relations are established in the next 2 years (like GE guys going to that power plant), the US media and law makers will hear about it, and as bi-lateral trade increases and agreements are signed, Pakistan will go back for bigger orders of F-16's with cash payment as she can afford it. There should be no stopping to that. 

The PAF will have around 120-140 F-16's (additional ones will include a mix of new and used ones). Unless, the PAF decides to acquire a heavier, twin engine platformed, or the JFT block III turns out to be a hit from the first plane.

And AMRAAM-D's are a must get for PAF too.

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## Aamir Hussain

The problem are not these folks. The real problem lies with those at the helm of affairs who have been quietly making mistakes over the years and pinning the blame on others!

That is why the paradox exists! Why blame US for all your evils and then go and buy and beg more stuff from them! The reality lies somewhere in the middle. 

For us, the general public, this remains an enigma! God and GoP moves in mysterious ways

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## Viper0011.

Aamir Hussain said:


> The problem are not these folks. The real problem lies with those at the helm of affairs who have been quietly making mistakes over the years and pinning the blame on others!
> 
> That is why the paradox exists! Why blame US for all your evils and then go and buy and beg more stuff from them! The reality lies somewhere in the middle.
> 
> For us, the general public, this remains an enigma! God and GoP moves in mysterious ways




Yup, I agree. It seems like for decades, nothing was done properly, specially for the people of Pakistan. So to hide these inept behaviors, the blame would get shifted 5000 miles away to the US. I wish people can understand the fact that their leaders in establishment and in other places made US the scapegoat for ALL of their inabilities to do something for the People of Pakistan. In that regards, I think the US is more loyal to Pakistani people than their own leaders for the past 50+ years as no matter how good or bad the situation was in Pakistan, the US kept providing assistance to the people of Pakistan in some shape of form.

Right now, the US is helping with Education, Healthcare, Teacher Development, Anti-Terrorism, Infrastructure,Defense and many other areas needing help. I wish once in a while, someone can open a thread from the Pakistani community on here, saying "Projects initiated and supported by the US", and highlight the real facts about how much help the US is providing to Pakistan. 

I hope this deal of F-16's goes through and the US government can approve more F-16's for Pakistan in the future. A conventionally strong and politically stable Pakistan is important for the US and for the rest of the globe!!


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## Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy

Viper0011. said:


> Yup, I agree. It seems like for decades, nothing was done properly, specially for the people of Pakistan. So to hide these inept behaviors, the blame would get shifted 5000 miles away to the US. I wish people can understand the fact that their leaders in establishment and in other places made US the scapegoat for ALL of their inabilities to do something for the People of Pakistan. In that regards, I think the US is more loyal to Pakistani people than their own leaders for the past 50+ years as no matter how good or bad the situation was in Pakistan, the US kept providing assistance to the people of Pakistan in some shape of form.
> 
> Right now, the US is helping with Education, Healthcare, Teacher Development, Anti-Terrorism, Infrastructure,Defense and many other areas needing help. I wish once in a while, someone can open a thread from the Pakistani community on here, saying "Projects initiated and supported by the US", and highlight the real facts about how much help the US is providing to Pakistan.
> 
> I hope this deal of F-16's goes through and the US government can approve more F-16's for Pakistan in the future. A conventionally strong and politically stable Pakistan is important for the US and for the rest of the globe!!


wow all problems are with us US never wanted to be globel police and infact they are angels dude u promised ship to us did u gave it to us and btw totel loss in war agains terrorism is 100 arab dollers and your military and civilian aid 1 arab dollers ??? and btw we never said there isnt any problem with our politicians but question is were it isnt yes we will and majority of youth will change but u cant cal america an angel and ccan never call it peacefull either so just shut up will ya?



Aamir Hussain said:


> The problem are not these folks. The real problem lies with those at the helm of affairs who have been quietly making mistakes over the years and pinning the blame on others!
> 
> That is why the paradox exists! Why blame US for all your evils and then go and buy and beg more stuff from them! The reality lies somewhere in the middle.
> 
> For us, the general public, this remains an enigma! God and GoP moves in mysterious ways


on which evil "with in" us we blamed others? reality is we arnt blaming others on our faults but are blamimg evry single for there faults and on ours we criticse oversleves

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## volatile

Viper0011. said:


> So you get everything from the US, but the negativity never ends. Was the comment about one stupid Naval ship a must have here? When the US has provided billions of dollars worth of weapons outside of it? Believe it or not, many "Think Tanks", don't go to Pakistan and live with the locals to understand the negative sentiment towards the Americans. They go through websites like these and clearly see how negative you guys are towards the US, no matter what or how much the US does for your country!!
> 
> By writing things like these, when you are buying more F-16's from the SAME US, just shows hypocrisy, double standards and at times, a nation without a logical thought process. When you write on here, MANY readers across the globe, judge your intentions towards their respective nations, based on these posts. So you may be creating a VERY negative image of yourself and your country. Always be positive and remain fact-full. Writing negativity or hatred, never accomplishes anything!!
> 
> Back to the post, this 8 is just one order. I think as soon as some more investments and business relations are established in the next 2 years (like GE guys going to that power plant), the US media and law makers will hear about it, and as bi-lateral trade increases and agreements are signed, Pakistan will go back for bigger orders of F-16's with cash payment as she can afford it. There should be no stopping to that.
> 
> The PAF will have around 120-140 F-16's (additional ones will include a mix of new and used ones). Unless, the PAF decides to acquire a heavier, twin engine platformed, or the JFT block III turns out to be a hit from the first plane.
> 
> And AMRAAM-D's are a must get for PAF too.



We have paid a very high price for these birds and frankly negativity comes when your approach is Carrot and Stick ,If you feel Pak is your strategic partner then you should respect us we have single handedly handed you Super power status by defeating USSR in Afg which all your might and muscle you guys were not able to do frankly Russia at time make you piss so its time stop arming India against us ,treat us with respect and on equal grounds as we have shed enough blood for you and for your so called WOT in Afg

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## IrbiS

Sulman Badshah said:


> ALQ 211 V9 ECM pod



Yes, in the last pic. In 2nd last that's DB, so I thought it's same in the last pic too. My bad!


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## Windjammer

@Oscar @Horus @Bratva @MastanKhan @HRK
Guys, check it out, MLU have scored over the Block-52s.

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## denel

Windjammer said:


> @Oscar @Horus @Bratva @MastanKhan @HRK
> Guys, check it out, MLU have scored over the Block-52s.



Please give more details... jf-17 match performance comparison in this tournament would be appreciated..


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## Sulman Badshah

Windjammer said:


> @Oscar @Horus @Bratva @MastanKhan @HRK
> Guys, check it out, MLU have scored over the Block-52s.


Mlu are more maneuverable than block 52+ ... I can't see your attachment can you re post it


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## fatman17

F16C at Shahbaz AFB

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## barbarosa

f 16 is the largest selling aircraft of the world. we like it in paf in any shape and any block.


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## Windjammer

Sulman Badshah said:


> Mlu are more maneuverable than block 52+ ... I can't see your attachment can you re post it



*Alan Warnes* ‏@warnesyworld  16 hrs16 hours ago
No 11 Sqn with upgraded F-16A/Bs have won the two week Pak AF Inter squadron armament competition. Included JF-17s and Bk52s for first time

A very reliable source confirmed that through MLU programme, the F-16A/B has become some 1000kg lighter making it even more nimble, however not sure if the competition involved DACT between the two or just A2G and gunnery competition.

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## Sulman Badshah

thanks ...


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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 276142
> View attachment 276143
> View attachment 276144
> F16C at Shahbaz AFB



The last picture is not an F-16C but a MLUed version, however second picture is that of an F-16C supporting CFTs.

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## Windjammer

_*Squadron Leader Tariq Waheed Malik of No 11 (Arrows) Squadron was awarded the coveted Sher Afgan Trophy for being the best marksman in the Inter Squadron Armament Competition, which was also won by his unit.*_
_*




*_

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## Saifullah

niaz said:


> It appears that everyone in the forum has their personal likes & dislikes. Some people dislike F-16 essentially because it is American & everything from US should be discarded. Whereas for others it is the JF-17. Post quoted above calls Jf-17 as the “Worst decision ever made by PAF”.
> 
> No doubt even the best professionals have difference of opinion and one could possibly accept such comments by an ex-PAF fighter pilot who has flown many contemporary aircrafts and concluded that JF-17 performance is below par & hence would be a sitting duck in combat.
> 
> Additionally, since JF-17 is to be the ‘work horse’ of future PAF fleet; I would expect Honourable ‘Asli Lahori’ to back up such a strong condemnation of the PAF General Staff and the aircraft with concrete evidence. At the very least; a viable alternative that was available to Pakistan but was not taken up by the idiots at the PAF who pursued JF-17 instead; should be provided.
> 
> In my personal opinion; given the scarce resources available to the country and the fact that in case of any Western fighter; there would always be threat of sanctions; Thunder is the best aircraft that PAF could afford to acquire in large numbers. It may not be the ‘State of the art’ but still far superior to the Mig21’s & Mirage s that JF-17 is scheduled to replace.
> 
> This post reminds of a quote by famous sage Sh. Saadi who stated:
> 
> Harkas ra aql-e-khood by kamaal me numayed wa aulad-e khwaish ba jamaal.
> 
> Meaning “Everyone considers his intellect to be excellent and his children beautiful.” This was said in 13th century but very true even today.


What if JF would have equivalent or little bigger size than the F16 and having the AL-XX series engine, how much cost increase it would be ? Having the same Electronics etc.

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## Manticore

HRK said:


> plz repost ... pic not visible ....

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## ghazi52

Thanks..............................................

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## niaz

RajputRana said:


> What if JF would have equivalent or little bigger size than the F16 and having the AL-XX series engine, how much cost increase it would be ? Having the same Electronics etc.



Neither China nor Pakistan; designers of JF-17; have not yet come up with this idea. Therefore any reply to this question would only be hypothetical. I have no idea and wouldn’t even hazard a guess.

My comment would be that if we wanted a plane similar to F-16 or slightly better, why only 8 F-16’s of the new model? We should have exercised the option for the full 18.

Alternately, if the money is there, PAF should go for the latest Russian or Chinese fighters. Don't you think that investing time & financial resources to design a fighter only slighter better than F-16 would be a wasted effort?


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## Imran Khan

barbarosa said:


> f 16 is the largest selling aircraft of the world. we like it in paf in any shape and any block.


no sir its not
List of most-produced aircraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Battle Axe

Saqr said:


> To be fair, if the 8 new F-16s pull through, then the PAF would be at 84~86 birds, not too far from 100-120, especially if more incremental orders are made.



Still far bro, this 5-6 squadron target has been brewing since 1990s and God knows when will next 24-36 birds fly in. I hope US allows us re-export buys so that we can 'rapidly' buy from other AFs around the world in span of 1-2 years. F-16 Block 10-30 would be no good after IAF begins Rafale inductions.



Viper0011. said:


> So you get everything from the US, but the negativity never ends.
> 
> US has provided billions of dollars worth of weapons outside of it?
> 
> Pakistan will go back for bigger orders of F-16's with cash payment as she can afford it. There should be no stopping to that..



Well, I have no grudges against US on a overall note, not a lot I mean but here with F-16s, yes there have been disappointments. It pains Pakistan to know that we did pay US in cash in 90s for F-16s that were later embargoed and for which we actually had to pay fines. That trith nullifies your suggestion that sooner or later, when we can afford to pay in cash, the Vipers will be handed over on a platter: that never actually happened to us unless US needed us too bad for its cold war thing.

And secondly, yes, US has been a huge provider of arms and aid but hey we have paid the price with our blood: from Zarb-e-Azb to previous aid during Afghan War. Nothing came without strings and further, we have been mostly sold second rate stuff: we will never be offered F-16V or Raptor or Patriots, why? Isn't that American hypocrisy?

Please don't say that these arms are risks in our hands. We have known USAF fighters to go up there with live nukes and their missiles mistakenly taking dowing commercial liners or them murdering our troops at Salala. What for was that title of major non-NATO ally bestowed upon us if all that was to follow was aid, half of our losses in a war we ggot engaged in because of US against an enemy created by the US and actually, for the US.


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## truthseeker2010

Battle Axe said:


> Still far bro, this 5-6 squadron target has been brewing since 1990s and God knows when will next 24-36 birds fly in. I hope US allows us re-export buys so that we can 'rapidly' buy from other AFs around the world in span of 1-2 years. F-16 Block 10-30 would be no good after IAF begins Rafale inductions.



re-export from whom? nato f-16's are too old, and PAF have already evaluated and rejected them, and I think PAF will go for new blk-52's and V's so most probably the next orders will be of 8 still left that were embargoed and are currently with USN, and 24-30 V's and 52's since they are in production.


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## Battle Axe

truthseeker2010 said:


> re-export from whom? nato f-16's are too old, and PAF have already evaluated and rejected them, and I think PAF will go for new blk-52's and V's so most probably the next orders will be of 8 still left that were embargoed and are currently with USN, and 24-30 V's and 52's since they are in production.



From around the world e.g. Egypt, Jordan

Bro, I agree those won't be all glittering but do you thing a sale of Block 52 + or the Vs would come in quick? I guess to acquire 36 of those, we would need 4-5 years. (2020)


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## truthseeker2010

Battle Axe said:


> From around the world e.g. Egypt, Jordan
> 
> Bro, I agree those won't be all glittering but do you thing a sale of Block 52 + or the Vs would come in quick? I guess to acquire 36 of those, we would need 4-5 years. (2020)



buying fighter jets is not an overnight thing, these things take time, realistically speaking 120 figure will take at least 4 years, no matter what route paf takes. So 2020 is a good assumption.


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## IrbiS

Battle Axe said:


> From around the world e.g. Egypt, Jordan
> 
> Bro, I agree those won't be all glittering but do you thing a sale of Block 52 + or the Vs would come in quick? I guess to acquire 36 of those, we would need 4-5 years. (2020)



Egypt? don't think so. About Jordan, they themselves are gonna get 7 surplus birds from Holland next year.


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## Saifullah

niaz said:


> Neither China nor Pakistan; designers of JF-17; have not yet come up with this idea. Therefore any reply to this question would only be hypothetical. I have no idea and wouldn’t even hazard a guess.
> 
> My comment would be that if we wanted a plane similar to F-16 or slightly better, why only 8 F-16’s of the new model? We should have exercised the option for the full 18.
> 
> Alternately, if the money is there, PAF should go for the latest Russian or Chinese fighters. Don't you think that investing time & financial resources to design a fighter only slighter better than F-16 would be a wasted effort?


I don't understand who come if JF17 would be better than what it is would have been wasted effort. The benefit would have been we would have our own Medium type merely putting 2-4 million more per plane. which would have more Payload and Range just what our need is, True point defense.


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## niaz

RajputRana said:


> I don't understand who come if JF17 would be better than what it is would have been wasted effort. The benefit would have been we would have our own Medium type merely putting 2-4 million more per plane. which would have more Payload and Range just what our need is, True point defense.




Since every fighter design is a compromise; frame is optimised for a specific task. Hence there is no guarantee that the enlarged JF-17 with more powerful engines will be significantly better than the newer JF-17 models and F-16 or Chinese J-20 to justify years of work and funds invested in it.

We have seen outcome of the Japanese F-SX program started in 1987 as Mitsubishi / General Dynamics joint venture. Aim was to enlarge F-16 by 25% to increase its payload and enable it to carry AESA Radar. 8 years of development work resulted in F-2 fighter which is not much better than later F-16 models & costs $125-million per unit. Japan terminated the program in 1994 after the production of 94 examples. Remember Japan has been producing first rate fighters from the 1930’s.

Pakistan has very little experience in designing fighter planes. Pakistan did collaborate but most of the design was carried out by the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation with flight testing at the Chengdu Test Centre. We neither have the trained manpower nor the equipment to do the sophisticated design & testing required for such a projected. China has thus far not inducted JF-17 in her inventory. Instead they are concentrating on J-20. Therefore should Chinese agree; Pakistan would have to fund the entire program without being certain that the new plane would perform much better.

I have nothing more to say on this subject. However my fellow members are free to indulge in flights of fancy.

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## fatman17

niaz said:


> Neither China nor Pakistan; designers of JF-17; have not yet come up with this idea. Therefore any reply to this question would only be hypothetical. I have no idea and wouldn’t even hazard a guess.
> 
> My comment would be that if we wanted a plane similar to F-16 or slightly better, why only 8 F-16’s of the new model? We should have exercised the option for the full 18.
> 
> Alternately, if the money is there, PAF should go for the latest Russian or Chinese fighters. Don't you think that investing time & financial resources to design a fighter only slighter better than F-16 would be a wasted effort?



Niaz sb cash crunch money available for 8 of the 18 option just like money available for 3 of 15 AH1Zs.

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## Aamir Hussain

Zain Ul Abideen Trimzy said:


> wow all problems are with us US never wanted to be globel police and infact they are angels dude u promised ship to us did u gave it to us and btw totel loss in war agains terrorism is 100 arab dollers and your military and civilian aid 1 arab dollers ??? and btw we never said there isnt any problem with our politicians but question is were it isnt yes we will and majority of youth will change but u cant cal america an angel and ccan never call it peacefull either so just shut up will ya?
> 
> 
> on which evil "with in" us we blamed others? reality is we arnt blaming others on our faults but are blamimg evry single for there faults and on ours we criticse oversleves



Our downfall as a nation started from 65' war -- did we start it or the US told us to go do it? But till today we blame our inaptness in conducting our war strategy and diplomatic failure on the US of stopping AID. Did we fail to achieve our war objective because because of AID or our failure to read our own intelligence reports indicating that there was no ground swell in Occupied Kashmir???

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## syed_yusuf

at this time PAF is split b/w F-16 and JF-17. had we not have the JFT program PAF would have been at serious disadvantage. Now PAF have close to 70 JFT all 4th gen ready to take on any thing east of Pakistan

Add F-16 to it and PAF have a good deterrence against any aggression. Rewind 10 years ago and the situation was very grim. 

In my Opinion JFT have provided A-5, F-7 and Mirage into one plus a lot more and that is 4th gen fighter locally produced.


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## Battle Axe

truthseeker2010 said:


> buying fighter jets is not an overnight thing, these things take time, realistically speaking 120 figure will take at least 4 years, no matter what route paf takes. So 2020 is a good assumption.



Yes if we go for Block 50+ but don't you think second hand ones come swifter, within 1-2 year which can coincide with Rafale. Won't going to 2020 be a year or two late?


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## Battle Axe

truthseeker2010 said:


> re-export from whom? nato f-16's are too old, and PAF have already evaluated and rejected them, and I think PAF will go for new blk-52's and V's so most probably the next orders will be of 8 still left that were embargoed and are currently with USN, and 24-30 V's and 52's since they are in production.



Do you really expect us to be sold F-16Vs, 2 squadrons of them?


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## Battle Axe

niaz said:


> Neither China nor Pakistan; designers of JF-17; have not yet come up with this idea. Therefore any reply to this question would only be hypothetical. I have no idea and wouldn’t even hazard a guess.
> 
> My comment would be that if we wanted a plane similar to F-16 or slightly better, why only 8 F-16’s of the new model? We should have exercised the option for the full 18.
> 
> Alternately, if the money is there, PAF should go for the latest Russian or Chinese fighters. Don't you think that investing time & financial resources to design a fighter only slighter better than F-16 would be a wasted effort?



I totally agree to you for one. It would be a wasted effort: like I mean we can continue manufacturing prototypes but let's not induct the Thunder in such huge numbers. The only aim of JFT program should now to be to evolve our skills and to bd able to go for joint production of a generation 5 aircraft at some stage.

Currently, we should just collect as many Vipers as we can. F-16s should serve us better then Thunders till 2025.


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## Battle Axe

syed_yusuf said:


> at this time PAF is split b/w F-16 and JF-17. had we not have the JFT program PAF would have been at serious disadvantage. Now PAF have close to 70 JFT all 4th gen ready to take on any thing east of Pakistan
> 
> Add F-16 to it and PAF have a good deterrence against any aggression. Rewind 10 years ago and the situation was very grim.
> 
> In my Opinion JFT have provided A-5, F-7 and Mirage into one plus a lot more and that is 4th gen fighter locally produced.



JFT taking care of anything at East. Umm, isn't that a little of an exaggeration?


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## Battle Axe

niaz said:


> Since every fighter design is a compromise; frame is optimised for a specific task. Hence there is no guarantee that the enlarged JF-17 with more powerful engines will be significantly better than the newer JF-17 models and F-16 or Chinese J-20 to justify years of work and funds invested in it.
> 
> We have seen outcome of the Japanese F-SX program started in 1987 as Mitsubishi / General Dynamics joint venture. Aim was to enlarge F-16 by 25% to increase its payload and enable it to carry AESA Radar. 8 years of development work resulted in F-2 fighter which is not much better than later F-16 models & costs $125-million per unit. Japan terminated the program in 1994 after the production of 94 examples. Remember Japan has been producing first rate fighters from the 1930’s.
> 
> Pakistan has very little experience in designing fighter planes. Pakistan did collaborate but most of the design was carried out by the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation with flight testing at the Chengdu Test Centre. We neither have the trained manpower nor the equipment to do the sophisticated design & testing required for such a projected. China has thus far not inducted JF-17 in her inventory. Instead they are concentrating on J-20. Therefore should Chinese agree; Pakistan would have to fund the entire program without being certain that the new plane would perform much better.
> 
> I have nothing more to say on this subject. However my fellow members are free to indulge in flights of fancy.



Correct. And that's exactly why, we should be getting hands on to J-20, atleast in smaller portions, learn and we can begin our own fancies a decade or so later.


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## syed_yusuf

Battle Axe said:


> JFT taking care of anything at East. Umm, isn't that a little of an exaggeration?



No it is not - in a mix of things - on defensive posture, JFT very much holds its own against anything IAF can throw at currently or in ear future.


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## truthseeker2010

Battle Axe said:


> Do you really expect us to be sold F-16Vs, 2 squadrons of them?



why not? they will be now standard production model



Battle Axe said:


> Yes if we go for Block 50+ but don't you think second hand ones come swifter, within 1-2 year which can coincide with Rafale. Won't going to 2020 be a year or two late?



rafale will also come in batches so it will take few years from initial receiving, its current production is 11-12 a/c per year. So don't worry it wont tilt the balance.


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## Sara Malik

Love Pak Air Force

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## Basel

niaz said:


> Since every fighter design is a compromise; frame is optimised for a specific task. Hence there is no guarantee that the enlarged JF-17 with more powerful engines will be significantly better than the newer JF-17 models and F-16 or Chinese J-20 to justify years of work and funds invested in it.
> 
> *We have seen outcome of the Japanese F-SX program started in 1987 as Mitsubishi / General Dynamics joint venture. Aim was to enlarge F-16 by 25% to increase its payload and enable it to carry AESA Radar. 8 years of development work resulted in F-2 fighter which is not much better than later F-16 models & costs $125-million per unit. *Japan terminated the program in 1994 after the production of 94 examples. Remember Japan has been producing first rate fighters from the 1930’s.
> 
> Pakistan has very little experience in designing fighter planes. Pakistan did collaborate but most of the design was carried out by the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation with flight testing at the Chengdu Test Centre. We neither have the trained manpower nor the equipment to do the sophisticated design & testing required for such a projected. China has thus far not inducted JF-17 in her inventory. Instead they are concentrating on J-20. Therefore should Chinese agree; Pakistan would have to fund the entire program without being certain that the new plane would perform much better.
> 
> I have nothing more to say on this subject. However my fellow members are free to indulge in flights of fancy.



To bold part, you are right but LM built XL version of F-16 which was larger and more capable too but it lost to F-15, that kind of approach can be taken for JF-17.







Take a look of its payload, 2 AIM-9s, 4 AIM-120s and 12 MK-82s.






Basically a Modernize F-16 XL is answer of all 4.5+ gen requirements of PAF sadly Pakistan can not afford its development cost. (LM can make it extremely potent with 5th gen tech, Vista tech and some redesign of shape for being stealthy (if need)) it could hit market of EFT, Rafael and Gripes NG if ever developed.

@gambit why LM did not offer XL as new F-16 to its customers? Even if US have not selected it.

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## untitled

@Basel ......The f16xl was in competition with f15e for the US requirement for a strike fighter. The f15 won and Lockheed Martin dropped the f16xl program. Customers who would have ordered the f16xl got the strike eagle, slam eagle, raam anyway


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## Battle Axe

syed_yusuf said:


> No it is not - in a mix of things - on defensive posture, JFT very much holds its own against anything IAF can throw at currently or in ear future.



I totally doubt it given their 200+ MKIs which are formidable fighters.


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## Battle Axe

truthseeker2010 said:


> why not? they will be now standard production model
> 
> 
> 
> rafale will also come in batches so it will take few years from initial receiving, its current production is 11-12 a/c per year. So don't worry it wont tilt the balance.



If we get hands onto 36 Vs till 2020. Then ofcourse, it looks all good.


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## Basel

persona_non_grata said:


> @Basel ......The f16xl was in competition with f15e for the US requirement for a strike fighter. The f15 won and Lockheed Martin dropped the f16xl program. Customers who would have ordered the f16xl got the strike eagle, slam eagle, raam anyway



Dear your post clearly shows you didn't understood what I have said.

Did PLAAF went for JF-17s?? No but still AVIC developed it for Pakistan as JV. Similar approach could had been taken for XL if Pakistan could afford it, XL was not just strike plane, it was totally new medium to heavy multi role plane. Check out its load in pic I posted, after that load it still had capability to carry more weapons.

To prove that XL was totally new F-16 check out about its two variants, one was single seat other was dual seat.


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## untitled

@Basel

First of all bro when was PAF in the market for a long range high payload aircraft in the first place until recently?



Basel said:


> Did PLAAF went for JF-17s?? No but still AVIC developed it for Pakistan as JV. Similar approach could had been taken for XL



Wrong comparison. PAF was always going for the the JF-17. Plus PAF was never part of the development process of any major block of F-16.



Basel said:


> eveloped it for Pakistan as JV


So you talk of a JV between Paksitan and Lockheed Martin. OK here is the history of PAF F-16s and the F-16XL program

1982: F-16XL makes its first flight in 1982
1983: PAF gets its first batch of Block 15 F-16s. PAF is delighted and over the moon as the US not objecting to export a F-100 powered jet to Pakistan. No more watered down F-16s or worse F-20s. PAF sees itself in the future flying 100 F-16s

1984: F-16 XL program loses out to the F-15E (two prototypes put in storage)
1984: Pakistan is still inducting F-16

1988: NASA takes thte two prototypes out of storage and starts using them for flight testing
1988: PAF has racked up quite a few kills with the _fighting falcon_ and its love affair has become quite stronger. PAF quite content buying F-16s with no plans for any type of JV. 
The Afgan war is coming to a close and Gen Zia dies in a plane crash.

1993: F-16 XL still with NASA.... no production variant developed. No orders for it from anywhere in the world
1993: Due to the Presseler amendment Pakistan is not getting any more F-16s until it rolls back its Nuclear program.


1998: Pakistan conducts its nuclear tests. Any hope of getting more F-16s becomes increasingly bleak (Pakistan starts looking for alternatives.... JF-17 is in the works)
1999: NASA puts the XLs in storage

2006: US agrees to sell more F-16s to Pakistan. But PAF has its hands full with JF-17 program. Still PAF is not looking for a long range fighter. So any talk of reviving the F-16XL program is not on the cards.
2009: The XLs are retired

-------------------------------------------------

Now tell me from 1982 to 2009 when was the right time for PAF to ask Lockheed Martin for a "Joint Venture" with the F-16XL? A plane that since 84 was not going to be inducted in US. It was not offered to anyone and probably Pakistan would have had bear its development costs if it had gone ahead. Plus from 1993 to the early 2000s Pakistan was under US sanctions.

If you want a future block of F-16s with the delta wing developed specially for the PAF do you think the PAF will be willing to invest in it given our history with the US? Even then we would be better of with the F-35 or even some upgraded F-15s (provided the US is willing to deliver)

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## GoldenRatio1618

PAC need to develop its indigeous engine for future needs for this purpose PAC should go with china on partnership basis in any of new ongoing electric power engine project development because future engines will be replaced by electricpower engines more powerfull than oil engines and until that keep improving jf design with advance and future needs.


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## untitled

GoldenRatio1618 said:


> hould go with china on partnership basis in any of new ongoing electric power engine project development because future engines will be replaced by electricpower engines more



Electric engines for manned aircraft even if found to have _any military_ applications are a good 15 to 20 years from service if not more. But you probably will see a quite a few drones


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## IrbiS

*F-16 ADF Block 15 from 13 Jordanian examples, carrying 500 pounder.





F-16BM with LGB and old Thomson CF Targeting Pod:



*

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## Quwa

IrbiS said:


> *F-16 ADF Block 15 from 13 Jordanian examples, carrying 500 pounder.
> View attachment 279373
> 
> 
> F-16BM with LGB and old Thomson CF Targeting Pod:
> View attachment 279374
> *


Not for long iA... PAF ordered additional Sniper ATPs.


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## GoldenRatio1618

America why not offering Pakistan assembly line of F16s as we are oldest users of American f serires fighters...


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## Viper0011.

Battle Axe said:


> Well, I have no grudges against US on a overall note, not a lot I mean but here with F-16s, *yes there have been disappointments. It pains Pakistan to know that we did pay US in cash in 90s for F-16s that were later embargoed and for which we actually had to pay fines.*
> 
> That trith nullifies your suggestion that sooner or later, when we can afford to pay in cash, the Vipers will be handed over on a platter: that never actually happened to us unless US needed us too bad for its cold war thing.



I think this argument should've been settled. What the military and the Pakistani media tell her people is negative in terms of embargo's and all. But they also have the responsibility to tell people positive stuff about the US.

For example, the 1 F-16's you did receive, along with other block 52 ones, there were some serious price reductions on those. Multiple Secretary of States had mentioned this in late 90's and early 2000's, that every child knows about the F-16 saga. And as a good will gesture, the United States gave Pakistan the MNNA status, and since then, there have been weapons provided worth billions, for a fraction of the cost. 

So someone has to take that into consideration that the "money lost" in 28 F-16's deal, has been recovered like 5 times more. But sadly, your press and the military, won't spend a minute in explaining that. I guess keeping a 200 million strong country should always be negative about the US, despite all kinds of assistance, from military to businesses, to healthcare, clean water, schools, universities, etc, etc??



> And secondly, yes, US has been a huge provider of arms and aid but hey we have paid the price with our blood: from Zarb-e-Azb to previous aid during Afghan War. Nothing came without strings and further, we have been mostly sold second rate stuff: we will never be offered F-16V or Raptor or Patriots, why? Isn't that American hypocrisy?



Here's another problem, not just with the above paragraph, but the mentality that thinks like that. There was an event A in the 80's or 90's, today if 2015. So something that happened 3-4 decades ago, shouldn't be linked to the world we live in today, or have lived in 10 years ago.

For anyone to create a conspiracy theory that the US has embargoed the F-16's, later released them gave Pakistan new, and other weapons was because the Pakistanis would one day pay their price with blood. 

The blood part, is Pakistani leadership's fault. The US has been singing the "anthem" to do more, in terms of go take these crazy bas*tard terrorists out all the way. And the US constantly told Pakistan that one day, these maniacs will create a threat for Pakistan. The US spends billions on psychological behavior research. The research tells the scientists that the pattern of such human behavior is that they are running on crazy ideology and next best thing before they can hit the Europe or the US, is Pakistan herself. So based on that assessment, Pakistan was requested to increase effectiveness in military ops so more terrorist can be taken out. 

I think this was the ONLY time in the modern US history, that two US presidents had personally requested Pakistani public to eliminate this threat of terrorism and become modern. Both, President Clinton and Bush went ALL the way to Pakistan and directly addressed the people of Pakistan inside Pakistan. One of them visited years before 911, the second one, after 911. So you are going to tell me that the US had some "conspiracy theory" agenda that two US president visited Pakistan and urged the country to support tolerance and focus on modernization and eliminate the strategic depth concept as it is going to harm Pakistan. And today.....we clearly see that, the harm to Pakistan has been a lot more than anyone else!!!! Sadly, had Pakistan heard, focused on WHY the US was suggesting what she was.....MANY from the 50,000 killed by the terrorists (both soldiers and citizens) would be alive today, including the Children who lost their most innocent precious lives in Peshawar, EXACTLY one year ago. And a year after hundreds of children were killed in cold blood, we see San Bernardino attacks. Now back to when the President Clinton or Bush asked Pakistan to take out all these bad guys a decade and a half ago, if that had happened, both the US and Pakistan won't be mourning the loss of precious lives.

Moral of the story, the conspiracy theories are "the thing" to have in Pakistan. But you guys should adapt a more practical and balanced approach towards the US. The US has done a lot for Pakistan and will keep a friendly and beneficial relationship relationship with Pakistan going forward, as long as Pakistan remains on the right path towards religious tolerance, modernization, democracy and growth. That's also a message to Pakistan's military that stop cutting off the civilian system who is ultimately going to grow the system. There is no other way, and Pakistan doesn't need more Marshal Laws, no matter how you look at it.



GoldenRatio1618 said:


> America why not offering Pakistan assembly line of F16s as we are oldest users of American f serires fighters...




You guys don't have the $$$$. You could make a case to the US to use Turkey's line to build more jets? Also, the relationships between the US and Pakistan, are finally going in the right direction. Something like this needs about 5-7 years worth of growth in bi-lateral relationships and trust. I am sure the US will listen to it then.


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## CHI RULES

truthseeker2010 said:


> why not? they will be now standard production model
> 
> 
> 
> rafale will also come in batches so it will take few years from initial receiving, its current production is 11-12 a/c per year. So don't worry it wont tilt the balance.


provided that we considerably improve JF17 and induction of any other platform with latest gadgets like AESA and IRST.( I still doubt that USA will offer Pak F16Vs in near future)


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## truthseeker2010

CHI RULES said:


> provided that we considerably improve JF17 and induction of any other platform with latest gadgets like AESA and IRST.( I still doubt that USA will offer Pak F16Vs in near future)



no matter how much jf-17 is improved, it will still have limitations, PAF will always have requirement for medium fighter, J-10 or F-16 equivalent.


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## Manticore

The $40 million spending was authorized under the FY 2016 omnibus budget.

Included in the year-end spending bill is $40 million is appropriated for active electronically scanned array radar (AESA) systems to replace the existing 1970s technology. The new radar system will help to better detect the evolving threat picture, identify new potential threats that current technology cannot, and allow greater capabilities to the Air National Guard F-16 fleet for national security efforts. F-16 aircraft that perform the Aerospace Control Alert (ACA) mission are slated to receive the upgrades.

LoBiondo had secured language in the Fiscal Year 2016 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) that authorized the AESA radar upgrades. The NDAA was signed into law by President Obama in November.

Also included in the bill is $10.2 million in federal funding for the 177th Fighter Wing’s new Fuel Cell & Corrosion Hangar facility that will replace the two current inadequate buildings in a combined structure. The new facility would increase production capability while providing the ability to handle 5th generation F-16s. LoBiondo previously announced the funding in May when it first passed the House.

LoBiondo Applauds House Passage of Funding for Critical Radar Updates for F-16s at 177th Fighter Wing | Congressman Frank LoBiondo

Alert 5 » 177th Fighter Wing’s F-16s getting AESA radars - Military Aviation News

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## GoldenRatio1618

PAF why not do act like indian airfoce doing they wait for 5, 8 years save funds and go for big deals and come with tot offers now see they went for rafael 126 fighters and result came offers of lockheed martin local assembly line with tot, saab offering local assembly with complete tot and full control same dassault is also offering in such a way but PAF only get assembly from china of jf-17s whith 200 fighters orders PAF this time go with big numbers and bring tot with full control and in future this will help PAC cabalities to enhace and learn more and more and in this way in future PAC will be capabale of developing indegenious fighters with new desings with advance technologies.

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## Paksanity

GoldenRatio1618 said:


> PAF why not do act like indian airfoce doing they wait for 5, 8 years save funds and go for big deals and come with tot offers now see they went for rafael 126 fighters and result came offers of lockheed martin local assembly line with tot, saab offering local assembly with complete tot and full control same dassault is also offering in such a way but PAF only get assembly from china of jf-17s whith 200 fighters orders PAF this time go with big numbers and bring tot with full control and in future this will help PAC cabalities to enhace and learn more and more and in this way in future PAC will be capabale of developing indegenious fighters with new desings with advance technologies.



There is no such thing as *complete ToT. *It is just playing with words. Nobody shoots in his foot and kills his own business. Critical technology and manufacturing process is always kept secret. That is the real fact behind such offers.

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## fatman17

Today in F-16 history

23 Dec 1981 
Pakistan orders 6 F-16s (Peace Gate I) becoming the 9th customer.

23 Dec 1981 
Pakistan orders 34 F-16s (Peace Gate II).

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## untitled

What is the significance of the term Peace Gate? The Egyptians got their F16s under the Peace Pharaoh program. One gets that. But what is Peace Gate?


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## SQ8

persona_non_grata said:


> What is the significance of the term Peace Gate? The Egyptians got their F16s under the peace pharaoh program. One gets that. But what is Peace gate?


Pakistan is the gateway to many countries.

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## untitled

Oscar said:


> Pakistan is the gateway to many countries.



Or maybe it is a reference to the Khyber Pass that Pakistan was supposed to block during the 80s?


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## krash

persona_non_grata said:


> What is the significance of the term Peace Gate? The Egyptians got their F16s under the Peace Pharaoh program. One gets that. But what is Peace Gate?



These program names are just traditional. "Peace" has always been the traditional prefix while the suffix has varied. Subsequent deals with a specific country just have Roman numerals added to original program name.
The language of the suffix at times is a link to the buyer country, like the Peace A'Sama A'Safiya ("Clear Skies") for Oman or the Peace Fenghuang (Peace Phoenix) for Taiwan, obviously the connections here are with the language used rather than the name. Sometimes the suffix is by itself the link to the buyer country, e.g, Peace Caesar (Italy) and Peace Crown (Oman). But many times the suffix is just arbitrary, e.g. Peace Bridge (South Korea), Peace Delta (Venezuela), Peace Atlantis (Portugal), Peace Sky (Poland), Peace Gate and Peace Drive (Pakistan), etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Egyptian program named Peace Vector?

Interestingly, the name 'Peace Gate' was ditched and 'Peace Drive' adopted for the Pakistani deals after the 90s to thwart the proverbial bad juju, given the history associated with the deals under the former name.

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## untitled

krash said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Egyptian program named Peace Vector?



Yup you are right. Peace Pharaoh was the deal under which the EAF purchased ex American F-4s


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## Paksanity

Pakistan in talks with US to procure latest F-16 jets: Air chief - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

Huh! We are looking for more F-16s and Air Chief says latest. Only F-16V comes to mind.


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## The Eagle

i think these are the same 8 F-16s that Pakistan was in talks with USA after US Congress approval and then there was a thread with hundreds of posts about the same. Though sometimes, non-understood words costs us bandwidth on PDF (hehehe). joke apart. However whatever is coming, treat it addition and its good for inventory.

Pakistan Zindabad

Seniors opinion is requested and would be valuable indeed.

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## mingle

The Eagle said:


> i think these are the same 8 F-16s that Pakistan was in talks with USA after US Congress approval and then there was a thread with hundreds of posts about the same. Though sometimes, non-understood words costs us bandwidth on PDF (hehehe). joke apart. However whatever is coming, treat it addition and its good for inventory.
> 
> Pakistan Zindabad
> 
> Seniors opinion is requested and would be valuable indeed.


Could be old & new ones but we need more new ones in some good numbers .


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## khanasifm

F16 Service life !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

*F-16 Durability Testing: 25,000 Hours and Counting*

F-16 Durability Testing: 25,000 Hours and Counting · Lockheed Martin


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## Viper0011.

Paksanity said:


> Pakistan in talks with US to procure latest F-16 jets: Air chief - Pakistan - DAWN.COM
> 
> Huh! We are looking for more F-16s and Air Chief says latest. *Only F-16V comes to mind*.



Block 60 with more advanced AESA radar, if the US government agrees to it


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## The Eagle

Just my opinion and request as well.

if is it the case the then it's better then before. First of all i must say that i am not advocating USA here. while going for deal and at the moment when we are getting into discussion with US, no need to bring the hatred of past as we use to claim that our armed forces are professionally handling things and are in deal so why start with few personal criticize here. We are in discussion with US as a Nation and an old ally as well. So also Men dealing the procurement are well aware how to drive. If we with a mindset jumps into deal that we will milk them, i don't think its the right idea and obviously this is not the case here. We are in talks and they have their own procedure to approve any sell so trust your end that we are paying them. So the real question arise that what we are offering them or what they demands for such deal. either the simple $ or there are few other things as well. So definitely people in talks knows how to proceed. My dear friends, let the things start getting into shape and if the the situation shapes into Win Win then obviously its going to happen something good. 

I must say "When I am good then I am good. When I am bad then I am Better"

Pakistan Zindabad


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## Signalian

PAF uses HARPOON on F-16?


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## fatman17

Viper0011. said:


> Block 60 with more advanced AESA radar, if the US government agrees to it



Will be block 52 as already inducted

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## fatman17

Sarge said:


> PAF uses HARPOON on F-16?



No but it can


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## Signalian

Anyone knows if this installation has been carried out on PAF F-16's?
*
HARPOON F-16 Installation*

Integration of the AGM-84 with the F-16 required two main changes:
(i) addition of Harpoon-specific weapon control algorithms to the Stores Management System, and
(ii) development of an interface adapter kit.

The interface adaptor is basically an electronic component that converts weapons control instructions from the F-16 Stores Management System into instructions that can be interpreted by the weapon (Harpoon in this case).

*Operational Use*
Only a limited number of F-16 customers use the Harpoon on their F-16s:


*Chile*: The FACh's block 52 aircraft have Harpoon capability, but no missiles have been ordered
*Egypt*: EAF Block 40 aircraft have Harpoon capability, no missile purchase yet
*Greece*: HAF F-16 Block 52 aircraft armed with AGM-84 Harpoons were test-flown at Edwards AFB
*Israel*: The IDF/AF is very likely to have Harpoon capability, but this is unconfirmed
*Oman*: The RAFO purchased 20 missiles for its F-16 Block 50 fleet
*South Korea*: The RoKAF Block 52 aircraft are Harpoon-capable, no confirmed missile purchase
*Taiwan*: The RoCAF purchased 54 missiles for its F-16 Block 20 aircraft
*Turkey*: The TUAF purchased 50 Harpoon missiles for their CCIP-upgraded F-16 Block 50 aircraft
*United Arab Emirates*: The UAEAF's block 60 aircraft are Harpoon capable, and 52 missiles were purchased at the time of the Block 60 deal
*USA*: Although the USAF was briefly interested in using the Harpoon on their F-16s during Operation Desert Storm and started the integration work, they lost interest when Desert Storm wound down. Not an operational customer.
PAF is not listed.

source: F-16.net - The ultimate F-16, F-22, F-35 reference







HARDPOINTS 3 and 7 carry HARPOON

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## fatman17

ASIA & PACIFIC

Will Pakistan Land a Deal With US for New F-16s?

By Usman Ansari

AAMIR QURESHI, AFP/Getty Images

Pakistani fighters F-16 fly on Nov. 4, 2013 during in the New Resolve military exercise in Khairpure Tamay Wali in Bahawalpur distirict.

ISLAMABAD — Pakistan continues to talk to the US about purchasing a new tranche of F-16 fighters, but analysts here warn that it is unclear if or when such a deal could close.


Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman, head of the Pakistani Air Force, was quoted in local media here Monday saying Pakistan was "in talks with US defense officials to get some [of the] latest F-16s but the deal may take some time." He spoke at an event to mark Pakistan Aeronautical Complex having manufactured its target of 16 JF-17 Block II for 2015.


That follows reports from mid-October that Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif would use a visit to Washington to push for the sale of eight F-16s for his military.

Pakistan currently operates a number of F-16 variants, so the addition of eight more jets is unlikely to have much impact on the local power balance between Pakistan and India.

However, the US Congress has historically been skeptical of arms sales to Pakistan, in no small part due to Indian lobbying, and any discussion of defense deals naturally must take this into account.

But circumstances could now be in Pakistan's favor. In addition to the Washington's speculated desire to maintain influence in Pakistan, there is a need to keep the F-16 production line open, which in the absence of domestic US orders can only be achieved through exports.

Despite the usual obstacles in the path of a deal, Brian Cloughley, an author, analyst and former Australian defense attache to Islamabad, says there is now a stronger chance that a deal could be struck.

"The India lobby in Congress is quite powerful and might help to block such sales to Pakistan, but the defense production lobby is much more influential,” Cloughley said. "On that basis, it's likely such a sale would get through."

Author and analyst Kaiser Tufail, who flew F-16s among other aircraft during his Air Force career, said that if negotiations really are serious he does not "see any reason why the US would be secretive about it."

He also questioned whether the US would use the possibility of more F-16s to maintain political ties with Pakistan at a time when China is strengthening its ties with the Asian nation.

"Under the ongoing Pak-China strategic cooperation, there must be great urgency in US quarters to retain influence in Pakistan. Any rumored offer of military hardware should be seen in that light," he said.

Lockheed Martin is represented in Pakistan by Kestrel, which also represents a number of other US firms such as Sikorsky, Gulf Stream, Hawker Beechcraft and L3 Communications. However, no comment was forthcoming from the firm about details such as the potential timeframe for a deal.

"There is no doubt that the F-16C-52 is the world's best single-engine fighter. Since we already operate a squadron of this type, its additional induction would be smooth," Tufail said.

David McKeeby, a spokesman for the State Department’s Bureau of Political-Military Affairs, declined to comment on a proposed sale until it has been formally notified to Congress.

However, McKeeby noted that, “When provided in the past, Pakistan has used US-funded equipment and US-provided technology to significant effect in their counter-terrorism efforts. Pakistan's F-16 is one key example of how US support has improved Pakistan's precision strike capability and capacity to combat terrorist elements in North Waziristan.”

Those operations, he noted, are “in the national interests of both Pakistan and the United States.”

Modernization Efforts

More F-16s would certainly speed up Pakistan's modernization efforts and Aman also stated the intention to replace the older generation of jets, such as the Mirage III/5 aircraft, by 2020.


First in line for replacement has been the Chengdu F-7P, of which small numbers are still operational. According to PAF officials the more advanced double-delta winged F-7PG is likely to remain as a point defense interceptor for the time being.

Even if the F-16 sale does not materialize, however, the JF-17 program is on course, and a spokesman for the Air Force said production would be increased to meet export orders. Though no official confirmation has yet been forthcoming, Myanmar is considered by analysts to have been the first export customer.

Four Pakistani Air Force squadrons are now equipped with the JF-17 and the number will grow as China and Pakistan signed a deal in April for the delivery of 50 aircraft in the coming three years.

Some parts of the JF-17, such as the rear fuselage, are still manufactured in China by Chengdu.

Even without further F-16s, Tufail believes the JF-17 can easily replace the remaining F-7P and Mirage III/5 fleets in the desired timeframe.

"We should have no problem as it is a well-planned and a phased program. The JF-17 production capacity of one squadron (16 aircraft) per year fits in well with the plans to complete the replacement by 2020."

Aaron Mehta in Washington contributed to this report.


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## khanasifm

8x 50 eq 400 million at minimum


Oman to purchase 12 additional F-16s


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## khanasifm

Historically IAF (Israel) influenced 2 major a/c changes

1. Mirage 5 was IAF requirement first to take Mirage 3 and convert it to Ground Attack which were never delivered but IAF stole design and developed its own Nasher

2. F16 Block 50/52 customized for longer range as IAF could not afford many F15E so added formal tanks adding 450 Gallons to give it a range, if I remember correctly LM also pitted F16 with conformal tanks against F15E

F16 I or Sufi became Block 50/52+ which is no longer used now and LM is using Block 50/52 as all customer went with the modifications

With Approx. 50K full load F16 is no longer light weight and range fighter, With conformal tanks plus all three drop tanks its range is almost equal to anything out there plus still can carry decent war load and this is why PAF want to add more as well as price / value /capabilty as there is no need for separate logistics, training etc.

Most light weight fighter are under 15 tons where F16 is reaching App 20+ Tons




F-16I Soufa Multirole Fighter - Airforce Technology


*The F-16I is fitted with a pair of removable conformal fuel tanks provided by IAI*. The conformal fuel tanks (CFT), holding 450gal of extra fuel, are mounted on both sides of the upper fuselage. The very low drag configuration CFTs have a very small effect on the aircraft's agility, handling quality and flight limits. The use of the conformal tanks increases the aircraft's mission range and combat endurance.


LM F16 Life

F-16 Durability Testing: 25,000 Hours and Counting · Lockheed Martin


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## Basel

Viper0011. said:


> Block 60 with more advanced AESA radar, if the US government agrees to it



Can they fire Meteor BVRAAM???


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## khanasifm

Costly Flight Hours | TIME.com


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## khanasifm

Till DSCA Notification nothing is known and agreed to by seller and buyer

Major Arms Sales | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency


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## Signalian

ROCAF F-16's upgraded with SABR Radar AN/APG-83, bringing up to standard F-16V.

(SABR) is a full-performance fire control radar for General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon and other aircraft. SABR offers all the advantages of a multi-function active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar with significant acquisition and life cycle cost savings. Designed to support next generation weapons and tactics, the SABR ensures the needed combat advantage over the adversary. In a 2013 competition, SABR was selected as the AESA radar for the F-16 modernization and update programs of the United States Air Force and Taiwan.

*About the Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) for the F-16*


SABR optimizes radar system performance within existing power and cooling allocations of legacy F-16s worldwide and will make these F-16 fleets relevant for decades to come. SABR began flying in 2008 and continues to build an unmatched record of successful "firsts" with flight demonstrations now including proven performance in advanced combat-relevant tests. As the only fire control radar supplier with nearly four decades of F-16 radar integration experience, we are the sole provider of the low-risk option for an F-16 AESA radar program.
*
Affordability is in SABR's DNA*
Northrop Grumman has industry-leading AESA fire control radar design, development and integration experience, and has produced thousands of airborne fire control radars for the U.S. Air Force and numerous international customers. As a world leader and sole provider of AESA radars for 5th Generation Fighters, Northrop Grumman continues to provide affordable AESA fire control solutions as well as award-winning cost efficiencies across F-16, F-22 and F-35 platforms. 

Since SABR's initial unveiling, Northrop Grumman has continued efforts to reduce cost, prove performance and reduce risk. Our SABR system has accumulated thousands of operating hours in the lab and in the air — all without failure — demonstrating superior operational performance and reliability. 
*
5th Generation fighter capability*
One way Northrop Grumman provides such affordable AESA fire control radar solutions is through the porting of software that has already established proven performance in the most challenging of combat scenarios. Using this ported software, SABR flew side-by-side with the APG-81 in matching Northrop Grumman flight test aircraft and produced exceptional results, further documenting its proven performance.

For those seeking an affordable F-16 AESA solution for extending F-16 fleets and ensuring they remain relevant, lethal and survivable, there is no substitute for SABR’s proven results. Northrop Grumman is the only AESA provider that can offer this affordability, low risk and proven performance for results you can trust. 

UAE AF uses AN/APG-80 AESA in Block 60 F-16 E/F

PAF F-16's use AN/APG-68 v5 Pulse Doppler.


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## Dazzler

Sarge said:


> ROCAF F-16's upgraded with SABR Radar AN/APG-83, bringing up to standard F-16V.
> 
> (SABR) is a full-performance fire control radar for General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon and other aircraft. SABR offers all the advantages of a multi-function active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar with significant acquisition and life cycle cost savings. Designed to support next generation weapons and tactics, the SABR ensures the needed combat advantage over the adversary. In a 2013 competition, SABR was selected as the AESA radar for the F-16 modernization and update programs of the United States Air Force and Taiwan.
> 
> *About the Scalable Agile Beam Radar (SABR) for the F-16*
> 
> 
> SABR optimizes radar system performance within existing power and cooling allocations of legacy F-16s worldwide and will make these F-16 fleets relevant for decades to come. SABR began flying in 2008 and continues to build an unmatched record of successful "firsts" with flight demonstrations now including proven performance in advanced combat-relevant tests. As the only fire control radar supplier with nearly four decades of F-16 radar integration experience, we are the sole provider of the low-risk option for an F-16 AESA radar program.
> *
> Affordability is in SABR's DNA*
> Northrop Grumman has industry-leading AESA fire control radar design, development and integration experience, and has produced thousands of airborne fire control radars for the U.S. Air Force and numerous international customers. As a world leader and sole provider of AESA radars for 5th Generation Fighters, Northrop Grumman continues to provide affordable AESA fire control solutions as well as award-winning cost efficiencies across F-16, F-22 and F-35 platforms.
> 
> Since SABR's initial unveiling, Northrop Grumman has continued efforts to reduce cost, prove performance and reduce risk. Our SABR system has accumulated thousands of operating hours in the lab and in the air — all without failure — demonstrating superior operational performance and reliability.
> *
> 5th Generation fighter capability*
> One way Northrop Grumman provides such affordable AESA fire control radar solutions is through the porting of software that has already established proven performance in the most challenging of combat scenarios. Using this ported software, SABR flew side-by-side with the APG-81 in matching Northrop Grumman flight test aircraft and produced exceptional results, further documenting its proven performance.
> 
> For those seeking an affordable F-16 AESA solution for extending F-16 fleets and ensuring they remain relevant, lethal and survivable, there is no substitute for SABR’s proven results. Northrop Grumman is the only AESA provider that can offer this affordability, low risk and proven performance for results you can trust.
> 
> UAE AF uses AN/APG-80 AESA in Block 60 F-16 E/F
> 
> PAF F-16's use AN/APG-68 v5 Pulse Doppler.



PAF vipers use V9s not V5s.


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## Signalian

Dazzler said:


> PAF vipers use V9s not V5s.


right but no AESA even when its available


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## araz

Sarge said:


> right but no AESA even when its available


I think the current administration and Congress have increasingly become India centric. It is only our own fault. If we had utilized our influence to win trade and develop our economy then the US would havew seen money in the pakistani coffers and be interested. However, no one wants to support an economically deprived nation indefinitely especially since the national interests of the US are inclined towards India in its intention to curtail China. So till we work for ourselves we will not have any sympathisers.
A

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## DANGER-ZONE

PAF F-16D Block-52 carrying DB-110 POD

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## S.U.R.B.

It'll be lame to consider that the air force do not have a plan B to address their needs in case the F-16s are denied.Of course there is one.But is it cost effective?
All the other options to procure another aircraft before a 5th Gen. platform to me looks expensive both as far as the buying and maintaining it is concerned.Or the air force can stick to the JFT (as they are) to make it a match or better compared to the 16's that are planned to be inducted.

To date it does not look good and it seems that they have backed down on their commitment.It has happened before as well.But that is how the politics is played.
"Back in March 2015, the U.S. House Committee on Foreign Affairs froze $150 million in foreign military financing and put a hold on the delivery of a number of used U.S. Navy cutter vessels since they were not deemed essential in fighting militants in Pakistan."

Now does those F-16s if they arrive, pack a punch and are a good purchase or not?
To someone who looks like insistent on saying that , it's just 8 and 8 F-16's is like "Aount ke mounh mein Zera"

This is not a Hadees or a word from the Holy script that only a squadron strength of ACs will make a statement.There is something called strike packages .When you have a squadron, a part it may get to become a strike package and be effective.All of it depends upon the target that you have in mind.When you have half a squadron you can have half a squadron at your disposal to deal with the threat or neutralize the designated targets across the border.8 is decent number when we talk about a strike package.The largest was with 56 F-16s so far that was used by the USAF ( @gambit , i hope i'm correct.) , which made it the largest F-16 air strike in the history.It was known as Package Q which was used against Iraq 's nuclear research facilities on the outskirts of the capital that was considered a very well guarded zone.

As i have said before as well, the addition of new or upgraded version of an old platform that you operate already is always a welcome addition.

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## MastanKhan

S.U.R.B. said:


> It'll be lame to consider that the air force do not have a plan B to address their needs in case the F-16s are denied.Of course there is one.But is it cost effective?
> All the other options to procure another aircraft before a 5th Gen. platform to me looks expensive both as far as the buying and maintaining it is concerned.Or the air force can stick to the JFT (as they are) to make it a match or better compared to the 16's that are planned to be inducted.
> 
> To date it does not look good and it seems that they have backed down on their commitment.It has happened before as well.But that is how the politics is played.
> "Back in March 2015, the U.S. House Committee on Foreign Affairs froze $150 million in foreign military financing and put a hold on the delivery of a number of used U.S. Navy cutter vessels since they were not deemed essential in fighting militants in Pakistan."
> 
> Now does those F-16s if they arrive, pack a punch and are a good purchase or not?
> To someone who looks like insistent on saying that , it's just 8 and 8 F-16's is like "Aount ke mounh mein Zera"
> 
> This is not a Hadees or a word from the Holy script that only a squadron strength of ACs will make a statement.There is something called strike packages .When you have a squadron, a part it may get to become a strike package and be effective.All of it depends upon the target that you have in mind.When you have half a squadron you can have half a squadron at your disposal to deal with the threat or neutralize the designated targets across the border.8 is decent number when we talk about a strike package.The largest was with 56 F-16s so far that was used by the USAF ( @gambit , i hope i'm correct.) , which made it the largest F-16 air strike in the history.It was known as Package Q which was used against Iraq 's nuclear research facilities on the outskirts of the capital that was considered a very well guarded zone.
> 
> As i have said before as well, the addition of new or upgraded version of an old platform that you operate already is always a welcome addition.




Hi,

Technically there is nothing wrong with going for F16's---8-18 or 28. The issue is over the approach.

I am sitting here is southern california and Rohrabacher is about a 100 miles from me---and listening to his speeches---he would rather smash pakistan to kingdom come and break it apart---and there are a few other senators and congressmen to follow.

Pakistani foreign office is not upto date with the hate and dislike of pakistan in the u s congress---congress is elected every two years and these poor fobs need money for re-election---so if the funding is coming from indians---they got to talk india.

It was very simple for pakistan to approach this subject of purchase---or a lack of it---. They should have ordered 2 sqdrns of J10C's---and for the F16's they should have looked for pre-owned / refurbished.

It is understandable that a machine that paf has been operating for 30 + years---they have a special affinity for it---and it is a marvelous machine---but you can't chop your nose to spite your face.

The Air Chief supposedlly BRAGGED to the U S that they have other options---well the U S has shown them the way for other options---.

What paf must do it to put its tail between its legs and quietly pursue other venues and don't say anything to the u s on this issue---that may bring out alive some other ' long dead ' buried issues.

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## Inception-06

S.U.R.B. said:


> "Back in March 2015, the U.S. House Committee on Foreign Affairs froze $150 million in foreign military financing and put a hold on the delivery of a number of used U.S. Navy cutter vessels since they were not deemed essential in fighting militants in Pakistan."



@CENTCOM

A slap on the face for all US and F-16 lovers ! Good Bye Amrica @CENTCOM check this topics what the hell is going on ? The Pakistani public and PDF deserves clearness about this issue !

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## MastanKhan

Ulla said:


> @CENTCOM
> 
> A slap on the face for all US and F-16 lovers ! Good Bye Amrica @CENTCOM check this topics what the hell is going on ? The Pakistani public and PDF deserves clearness about this issue !




Hi,

@Ulla this is the 90's again-----the sanctions were in the air and still the paf was pursuing the F16---they gave them all the money and got sanctions and still out of sheer stupidity were waiting for the aircraft---.

How moronic and stupid does the pakistan air force needs to be---. These are the red flags that are clearly been shown----the U S does not understand how stupid pakistan can be---. They are trying to tell them indirectly that the F 16 deal has problems---which might end up in sanctions.

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## fatman17

Viper Driver Flying Hours
Sqn.Ldr. Abdul Ghaffar "Buzzard" Buzdar


Viper Driver

Name
Sqn.Ldr. Abdul Ghaffar "Buzzard" Buzdar
Country Pakistan 
Unit 5th squadron "Falcons"Flying F-16sViper 
Hours1000 F-16 Flying Hours1,000 Hours
#2788 on the 1K list
Unit 5th squadron "Falcons"

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## nomi007

during live firing exercise


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## DrWatson775

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Technically there is nothing wrong with going for F16's---8-18 or 28. The issue is over the approach.
> 
> I am sitting here is southern california and Rohrabacher is about a 100 miles from me---and listening to his speeches---he would rather smash pakistan to kingdom come and break it apart---and there are a few other senators and congressmen to follow.
> 
> Pakistani foreign office is not upto date with the hate and dislike of pakistan in the u s congress---congress is elected every two years and these poor fobs need money for re-election---so if the funding is coming from indians---they got to talk india.
> 
> It was very simple for pakistan to approach this subject of purchase---or a lack of it---. They should have ordered 2 sqdrns of J10C's---and for the F16's they should have looked for pre-owned / refurbished.
> 
> It is understandable that a machine that paf has been operating for 30 + years---they have a special affinity for it---and it is a marvelous machine---but you can't chop your nose to spite your face.
> 
> The Air Chief supposedlly BRAGGED to the U S that they have other options---well the U S has shown them the way for other options---.
> 
> What paf must do it to put its tail between its legs and quietly pursue other venues and don't say anything to the u s on this issue---that may bring out alive some other ' long dead ' buried issues.


It seems that the 2020s are going to be a sequel of the 90s. The only difference is that a plan B in terms of J10 Firebird/Vanguard. JF17s cannot replace the F16s. Neither can the J10s though.


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## Viper0011.

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> @Ulla this is the 90's again-----the sanctions were in the air and still the paf was pursuing the F16---they gave them all the money and got sanctions and still out of sheer stupidity were waiting for the aircraft---.
> 
> How moronic and stupid does the pakistan air force needs to be---. These are the red flags that are clearly been shown----the U S does not understand how stupid pakistan can be---. They are trying to tell them indirectly that the F 16 deal has problems---which might end up in sanctions.



MK, this time, you are mistaken. This is NOT the 90's!! Here's why:

1) Since the 2008, any used of new F-16's being bought, are ALSO being bought with 5 years of spare-parts. The PAF can overhaul the F-16 internally. In the 90's, the Spares were the issue that grounded the -16!! So this time, let's say there are sanctions, the PAF will have the current planes flying like normal, plus 5 years worth of spares, which don't get used 100%. So the 5 years spares mean the jets will be operational as normal for the next 7-10 years ( I don't see sanctions btw, as long as there is a democratically elected system running Pakistan). So 7 years is MORE than enough time to get another platform and induct it, train pilots and build tactics. That is the worst case scenario.

2) The US has issued one of the largest tourist visas to Pakistani businessmen, visitors, nurses, teachers in the past two years. She is trying to build a relationship with the people of Pakistan (not just with politicians and the generals). So there is a strategy. The US leadership also knows VERY well that if they hurt Pakistan's defensive posture at this time in the history (unlike before), it may be time to say good bye to Pakistan and lose any influence. And the Pakistan is the ONLY nuke power in the Islamic world and holds a tremendous amount influence on that part of the world.

3) Not to mention the Russians and the Chinese will have open arms to embrace Pakistan (they already have) and fulfill her defense needs. The world needs Pakistan's cooperation in many directions.

4) You are reading into political rhetoric coming from the likes to Mr. Trump too much. Its the election year. Even in Pakistan, there are parties who make crazy statements about how they'll stop US-Pakistani relations and make Pakistan a "better place" by taking her away from the US  

So these are the realities. All these politician will bit*ch and complain. The Pentagon will tell the senators that they need Pakistan and they need them to issue the jets or other systems, and those will be approved. 8, 16, 40 or 60 F-16's don't give Pakistan serious offensive capability. So IMO, there is no issue with regards to the balance of power compared to India. So these will be approved. 8 is not a real meaningful number. But let's say the discussions were 8 first order, 18 after and may be a third follow up order of new or used -16's. Not that about $ 8-10 billion over time. You think Lockheed would like to use that much money? AND a client with a growing economy who could pay $ 20-30 billion over the next 15-20 years? The answer is no. But the order has to be size able to make that impact (like how India does it). Which is why the 8 is the first order, and there will be approximately 24-40 jets purchased.

5) I personally think (looking at the evidence), that this may be the last top line aircraft purchase from the US. Pakistan will soon hit block III or the JFT and will also join into different projects by 2018 (as the economy grows and a few extra billion are available for JV's with Turkey, China, Russia and Korea), for a top line jet replacing the F-16's. So the remaining US aircraft will probably form a second tier in the next ten years till retired.

6) Haier has setup technology centers in Pakistan (Laptops, Tablets, now Cell phones and in the future, TV's, Consumer Electronics, Mobile Computing, etc). This will create serious local semi conductor R&D and production revolution in Pakistan. Guess what? These same technologies are used in building avionics and systems for jets. Within the next 5-7 years, you'll have a huge labor base to work on R&D and next generation of defense systems in Pakistan  

So no, this isn't the 90's Pakistan. Hell, this isn't even the Pakistan world knew in 2012. Someone I know, who works with the Pakistani government, recently told me how impressed he was with Pakistani officials wanted serious growth, no matter which topic you started with them. Per him "the Pakistanis seem to have tasted the blood of economic growth and they are after it like a Lion goes after the Meat". I think this one sentence tells you how much growing Pakistan's economy has become the core focus of the current government. Whether you like them or hate them. Better and stronger economy, and $$$$ means a better and stronger defense!!



Basel said:


> Can they fire Meteor BVRAAM???



If you did the integration with the French, absolutely. In fact, Pakistan is a good example here. Pakistan was the first American customer who, on their -16's, decided to put a French LANTIRN POD and it's worked for decades. Same can happen with Meteor. The real question is, will the French sell it to you?

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## fatman17

Pakistan test fires indigenously built Ra'ad cruise missile

20 January 2016

The Pakistani Air Force has test-fired the indigenously built Air Launched Cruise Missile (ALCM) Ra'ad at an undisclosed location.

The Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) said the missile system enabled Pakistan to achieve a greater strategic stand-off capability on land and at sea.

"This milestone will surely enhance strategic stability and contribute to peace in the region."

The latest test-launch of the nuclear-capable missile, also known as Hatf-VIII, is the seventh in the series of the test launches conducted since the first in 2007.

A test launch was undertaken in February last year, immediately after India test-fired its Agni V intermediate range ballistic missile.
Ra'ad is a low-altitude air-launched cruise missile, with a range of 350km, which can carry a nuclear or conventional warhead.

The 5m long weighs up to 1,000kg. Its low level flight manoeuvres enable the missile to avoid detection by air defence systems.
Pakistan's Strategic Plans Division director general lieutenant general Mazhar Jamil said: "This milestone will surely enhance strategic stability and contribute to peace in the region."

In December, the Pakistan Army tested the Shaheen-III surface-to-surface ballistic missile from an undisclosed location.

Image: The recent testing of Ra'ad cruise missile marks the sixth of the series. Photo: courtesy of Irib.

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## truthseeker2010

On this day 2nd Feb 1974, the Fighting falcon, one of the best selling jet fighters ever built, made its first flight.

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## fatman17

Lawmaker Blocks Deal to Sell F-16s to Pakistan

By 

GORDON LUBOLD

Feb 10, 2016 5:48 pm ET


WASHINGTON — A senior Republican senator is blocking the Obama administration’s subsidized sale of as many as eight new F-16 jet fighters to Pakistan because of Islamabad’s relationship with a militant group known for targeting U.S.-trained security forces in neighboring Afghanistan.

Sen. Bob Corker (R., Tenn.), chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, told Secretary of State John Kerry in a letter that he couldn’t allow the Obama administration to use taxpayer funds to support the sale of the jets.



He cited attacks by the group known as the Haqqani network, saying the government in Islamabad continues to provide haven to its leaders. Pakistani officials weren’t able to respond immediately for comment.

Mr. Corker, who recently returned from his fifth trip to Afghanistan, said the Pakistani government should be welcome to purchase the F-16s with its own money. The planned sale through the State Department’s foreign military sales program, announced last year, aims to reward Pakistan for its efforts against militants.

“I do not want U.S. taxpayer dollars going to support these acquisitions,” Mr. Corker said in an interview. “While we’re spending tremendous amounts of U.S. dollars and certainly tremendous sacrifice in our men and women in uniform and by other agencies, they are working simultaneously to destabilize Afghanistan.”

Mr. Corker said he was using his authority as a committee chairman to object single-handedly to the proposed sale.

“I fully understand that our relationship with Pakistan is both complicated and imperfect,” Mr. Corker wrote in the Feb. 9 letter to Mr. Kerry obtained by The Wall Street Journal. “Cooperation with Pakistan is important and has achieved some of our interests.”

But, he said, Pakistan’s activities are “immensely problematic” and contribute to the notion that Pakistan is a “duplicitous partner, moving sideways rather than forward in resolving regional challenges.”

Obama administration officials said the U.S. has provided equipment and technology to the Pakistanis “to significant effect” in Pakistan’s counterterrorism efforts and has helped the Pakistan military to be more effective against militants in the tribal regions but while minimizing “collateral damage.”

“Our relationship with Pakistan is not about any one system, nor any one capability,” said David McKeeby, of the State Department’s Bureau of Political-Military Affairs, which oversees foreign military sales. “We go deeper than that.”

A Pentagon spokesman said he couldn’t discuss foreign military sales until Congress is formally notified.

”Our bilateral defense relationship with Pakistan is focused on enhancing counterterrorism capabilities and improving the military’s ability to deny ungoverned spaces to terrorists that undermine stability in the region,” said Christopher Sherwood, a Pentagon spokesman.

Share this: 

BOB CORKER DEFENSE F-16HAQQANI NETWORK PAKISTAN

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## fatman17

Key point 

Mr. Corker, who recently returned from his fifth trip to Afghanistan, said the Pakistani government should be welcome to purchase the F-16s with its own money. The planned sale through the State Department’s foreign military sales program, announced last year, aims to reward Pakistan for its efforts against militants.

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Key point
> 
> Mr. Corker, who recently returned from his fifth trip to Afghanistan, said the Pakistani government should be welcome to purchase the F-16s with its own money. The planned sale through the State Department’s foreign military sales program, announced last year, aims to reward Pakistan for its efforts against militants.


In other words Pak should use his pocket for purchase it's not big issue it will be resolved .Deal will be go through for sure .


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## fatman17

mingle said:


> In other words Pak should use his pocket for purchase it's not big issue it will be resolved .Deal will be go through for sure .



All previous purchases have been with Pakistan’s sovereign funds. This is the first subsidised sale. It was a wrong move on our part.

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## fatman17

Anyway look for pakistan to procure additional F16s from Jordan. Upto 12.

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## monitor

*US lawmaker vows to block deal to sell F-16s to Pakistan*
Published February 11, 2016
SOURCE: PTI







Describing Pakistan’s activities as “immensely problematic”, a powerful Republican Senator has vowed to block the sale of eight F-16 fighter jets to the country that is acting as a “duplicitous partner” and providing safe havens to terror groups.

In a letter to Secretary of State John Kerry, Senator Bob Corker said he couldn’t allow the Obama administration to use taxpayer funds to support the sale of the jets, given that the terrorist organisations like Haqqani network that attack US troops in Afghanistan enjoy safe havens inside Pakistan, The Wall Street Journal said.

In the letter dated February 9, Corker said Pakistan’s activities are “immensely problematic” and contribute to the notion that Pakistan is a “duplicitous partner, moving sideways rather than forward in resolving regional challenges.”

Corker shot off the angry letter to Kerry after his fifth trip to Afghanistan wherein he had a first-hand experience of the ground realties and attack on US troops from the terrorist organisations based in Pakistan.

The Senator wrote the letter to Kerry, the day on which the Secretary of State in his annual budget sent to the Congress proposed a financial assistance of USD 859.8 million for Pakistan, including USD 265 million for military hardware.

“I do not want US taxpayer dollars going to support these acquisitions,” Corker was quoted as saying by the report.

“While we’re spending tremendous amounts of US dollars and certainly tremendous sacrifice in our men and women in uniform and by other agencies, they are working simultaneously to destabilise Afghanistan,” he said

Another Republican lawmaker yesterday opposed the sale of F-16.

“The pending sale of 8 F-16 aircraft to the Government of Pakistan is deeply troubling,” said Congressman George Holding, Co-chair of the House Caucus on India and Indian-Americans.

Holding said Pakistan has continually proven to be an unreliable and unwilling partner for the US on numerous fronts – chief among them our effort to combat the growing threat of terrorism.

“It is difficult to see how this sale strengthens our national security and more importantly, how this sale would improve stability in the region. I believe this sale requires further assessment by Congress and urge the Administration to suspend any further action on this sale,” Holding said.

The State Department refused to comment on the sale of F-16 to Pakistan.

“As a matter of policy, the Department does not comment on proposed arms sales or transfers until they have been formally notified to Congress,” David McKeeby, a Spokesperson for the US Department of State’s Bureau of Political-Military Affairs, said recently.

“We place tremendous importance on our wide-ranging US-India defence partnership which our leaders have recognised as having long-term benefit to not only each other, but the world over,” he said.


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## fatman17

monitor said:


> *US lawmaker vows to block deal to sell F-16s to Pakistan*
> Published February 11, 2016
> SOURCE: PTI
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Describing Pakistan’s activities as “immensely problematic”, a powerful Republican Senator has vowed to block the sale of eight F-16 fighter jets to the country that is acting as a “duplicitous partner” and providing safe havens to terror groups.
> 
> In a letter to Secretary of State John Kerry, Senator Bob Corker said he couldn’t allow the Obama administration to use taxpayer funds to support the sale of the jets, given that the terrorist organisations like Haqqani network that attack US troops in Afghanistan enjoy safe havens inside Pakistan, The Wall Street Journal said.
> 
> In the letter dated February 9, Corker said Pakistan’s activities are “immensely problematic” and contribute to the notion that Pakistan is a “duplicitous partner, moving sideways rather than forward in resolving regional challenges.”
> 
> Corker shot off the angry letter to Kerry after his fifth trip to Afghanistan wherein he had a first-hand experience of the ground realties and attack on US troops from the terrorist organisations based in Pakistan.
> 
> The Senator wrote the letter to Kerry, the day on which the Secretary of State in his annual budget sent to the Congress proposed a financial assistance of USD 859.8 million for Pakistan, including USD 265 million for military hardware.
> 
> “I do not want US taxpayer dollars going to support these acquisitions,” Corker was quoted as saying by the report.
> 
> “While we’re spending tremendous amounts of US dollars and certainly tremendous sacrifice in our men and women in uniform and by other agencies, they are working simultaneously to destabilise Afghanistan,” he said
> 
> Another Republican lawmaker yesterday opposed the sale of F-16.
> 
> “The pending sale of 8 F-16 aircraft to the Government of Pakistan is deeply troubling,” said Congressman George Holding, Co-chair of the House Caucus on India and Indian-Americans.
> 
> Holding said Pakistan has continually proven to be an unreliable and unwilling partner for the US on numerous fronts – chief among them our effort to combat the growing threat of terrorism.
> 
> “It is difficult to see how this sale strengthens our national security and more importantly, how this sale would improve stability in the region. I believe this sale requires further assessment by Congress and urge the Administration to suspend any further action on this sale,” Holding said.
> 
> The State Department refused to comment on the sale of F-16 to Pakistan.
> 
> “As a matter of policy, the Department does not comment on proposed arms sales or transfers until they have been formally notified to Congress,” David McKeeby, a Spokesperson for the US Department of State’s Bureau of Political-Military Affairs, said recently.
> 
> “We place tremendous importance on our wide-ranging US-India defence partnership which our leaders have recognised as having long-term benefit to not only each other, but the world over,” he said.



Already posted sir

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## fatman17

NEWS

DSCA Approves F-16 Block-52 Sales to PakistanStaff Reports6 hours agoFacebookTwitterGoogle Plusmore

AAMIR QURESHI, AFP/Getty Images

Pakistani fighters F-16 fly on Nov. 4, 2013 during in the New Resolve military exercise in Khairpure Tamay Wali in Bahawalpur distirict.

WASHINGTON — The US State Department has approved the sales of eight F-16 Block-52 aircraft and other equipment to Pakistan worth $699 million, the Pentagon’s Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) announced Friday.

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) notified Congress of the possible sale and is awaiting approval to execute.

“We support the proposed sale of eight F-16s to Pakistan, which we view as the right platform to in support of Pakistan’s counterterrorism and counterinsurgency operations,” said a US government official said.

“These operations reduce the ability of militants to use Pakistani territory as a safe haven for terrorism and a base of support for the insurgency in Afghanistan, which is in the national interests of both Pakistan and the United States, and in the interest of the region more broadly.”

The official confirmed that there had been Congressional objections to the sale, but said that contrary to recent “erroneous reports", “concerns were raised in regard to financing the sale, not the transfer itself.”

According to the DSCA’s statement, the proposed sale will improve Pakistan's ability to conduct operations in all-weather, non-daylight environments, provide a self-defense/area suppression capability as it and enhance its ability to conduct counter-insurgency and counterterrorism operations.

According to the DSCA, Pakistan is not expected to have difficulty absorbing these additional aircraft into its air force. The sale is also meant to increase the number of aircraft available to the Pakistan Air Force to sustain operations, meet monthly training requirements and support transition training for pilots new to the Block-52.

The pending sale to Pakistan includes:
♦ eight F-16 Block-52 aircraft — two C and six D and models with the F100-PW-229 increased performance engine
♦ 14 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems 
♦ eight AN/APG-68(V)9 radars
♦ eight ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites

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## fatman17

Defense Security Cooperation Agency

NEWS RELEASE

On the web: Home Page | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency 
Media/Public Contact: 

pm-cpa@state.gov

Transmittal No. 15-80

The Government of Pakistan – F-16 Block 52 Aircraft

WASHINGTON, Feb. 12, 2016 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign 
Military Sale to the Government of Pakistan for F-16 Block 52 Aircraft, equipment, training, and logistics 
support. The estimated cost is $699.04 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the 
required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on February 11, 2016.
The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:
Major Defense Equipment (MDE):
Eight (8) F-16 Block 52 aircraft (two (2) C and six (6) D models), with the F100-PW-229 increased 
performance engine
Fourteen (14) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
Non-MDE items included in this request are eight (8) AN/APG-68(V)9 radars, and eight (8) ALQ-
211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites (AIDEWS). Additionally, this 
possible sale includes spare and repair parts, support and test equipment, publications and technical 
documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor 
engineering, technical and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistical and 
program support. The estimated cost of MDE is $564.68 million. The total estimated cost is $699.04
million.
This proposed sale contributes to U.S. foreign policy objectives and national security goals by helping to 
improve the security of a strategic partner in South Asia.
The proposed sale improves Pakistan's capability to meet current and future security threats. These 
additional F-16 aircraft will facilitate operations in all-weather, non-daylight environments, provide a self-
defense/area suppression capability, and enhance Pakistan’s ability to conduct counter-insurgency and 
counterterrorism operations. 
This sale will increase the number of aircraft available to the Pakistan Air Force to sustain operations, 
meet monthly training requirements, and support transition training for pilots new to the Block-52. 
Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing these additional aircraft into its air force.
The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.
Contractors have not been selected to support this proposed sale. There are no known offset agreements 
proposed in connection with this potential sale.

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## ZEYA

SO after getting this 8 new f-16 ,total number of f-16 in pakistan air force will be ???? will it be 76 +8=84 ??????


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## Sulman Badshah

ZEYA said:


> 76 +8=84


78+8 = 86 

you missed recently received 2 embargoed ones

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## ZEYA

Sulman Badshah said:


> 78+8 = 86
> 
> you missed recently received 2 embargoed ones


hope rest 14 will come too and make them at least 100


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## monitor

fatman17 said:


> Already posted sir


sorry didn't noticed but thanks didn't made anew thread.


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## nomi007

WASHINGTON — The US State Department has approved the sales of eight F-16 Block-52 aircraft and other equipment to Pakistan worth $699 million, the Pentagon’s Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) announced Friday.

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) notified Congress of the possible sale and is awaiting approval to execute.

“We support the proposed sale of eight F-16s to Pakistan, which we view as the right platform to in support of Pakistan’s counter terrorism and counterinsurgency operations,” said a US government official said.

“These operations reduce the ability of militants to use Pakistani territory as a safe haven for terrorism and a base of support for the insurgency in Afghanistan, which is in the national interests of both Pakistan and the United States, and in the interest of the region more broadly.”

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...15/12/30/pakistan-pursues-new-f-16s/78083782/
The official confirmed that there had been Congressional objections to the sale, but said that contrary to recent “erroneous reports", “concerns were raised in regard to financing the sale, not the transfer itself.”

According to the DSCA’s statement, the proposed sale will improve Pakistan's ability to conduct operations in all-weather, non-daylight environments, provide a self-defense/area suppression capability as it and enhance its ability to conduct counter-insurgency and counterterrorism operations.

According to the DSCA, Pakistan is not expected to have difficulty absorbing these additional aircraft into its air force. The sale is also meant to increase the number of aircraft available to the Pakistan Air Force to sustain operations, meet monthly training requirements and support transition training for pilots new to the Block-52.

The pending sale to Pakistan includes:
♦ eight F-16 Block-52 aircraft — two C and six D and models with the F100-PW-229 increased performance engine
♦ 14 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems 
♦ eight AN/APG-68(V)9 radars
♦ eight ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites

DSCA Approves F-16 Block-52 Sales to Pakistan

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## fatman17

US Approves Sale of Eight F-16C/D Block 52s to Pakistan

Posted on 13 February, 2016

One of the current Pakistan Air Force F-16Ds, 10801. US approval has been given for acquisition of a further six F-16Ds and two F-16Cs. LMCO

A CONTROVERSIAL proposed US Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of eight F-16 Block 52 aircraft has been given approval by the US State Department. The US Defense Security Co-operation Agency (DSCA) confirmed the approval yesterday, February 12, saying that Congress had been delivered the required notification of this possible sale on February 11.

The DSCA says the deal is valued at an estimated $699.04 million, including equipment, training and logistics support. The estimated cost is $699.04 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on February 11, 2016.

Major Defense Equipment (MDE) included in the contract will be two F-16C Block 52 and six F-16D Block 52 aircraft with the F100-PW-229 increased performance engine and 14 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS). Non-MDE items

Non-MDE items included in this request are eight AN/APG-68(V)9 radars, and eight ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites (AIDEWS). Additionally, this possible sale includes spare and repair parts, support and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, US Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services, plus other related elements of logistical and programme support. The estimated cost of the MDE element is $564.68 million.

The DSCA said this proposed sale contributes to US foreign policy objectives and national security goals by helping to improve the security of a strategic partner in South Asia. The proposed sale improves Pakistan’s capability to meet current and future security threats. These additional F-16 aircraft will facilitate operations in all-weather, non-daylight environments, provide a self-defence/area suppression capability and enhance Pakistan’s ability to conduct counter-insurgency and counterterrorism operations, said the DSCA.

The DSCA added that “this sale will increase the number of aircraft available to the Pakistan Air Force to sustain operations, meet monthly training requirements and support transition training for pilots new to the Block 52. Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing these additional aircraft into its air force. The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.” Pakistan has previously taken delivery of 12 F-16C Block 52s and six F-16D Block 52s, in addition to earlier F-16A/B models.


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## Tehmasib

When these birds hand over to PAF???


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## fatman17

Tehmasib said:


> When these birds hand over to PAF???



Delivery dates are not known but my guess is 2018

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## fatman17

monitor said:


> sorry didn't noticed but thanks didn't made anew thread.



No problem

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## fatman17

Delivery dates are given once the contract is signed between the manufacturer and end user.

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## Piper

fatman17 said:


> Delivery dates are given once the contract is signed between the manufacturer and end user.



New contract in this case or fulfilment of the old one?

Also are the birds coming from the boneyard or are they freshly minted


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## fitpOsitive

In my humble opinion what I think about this F16 deal, this move is taken by US to stop Pakistan from opting for Flankers from Russia. F16 is becoming an old stuff, and Pakistan should move towards better options. India is crying because India wants us to believe that F16s are big threat to them, but in reality, India know so much things about shooting down F16s(thanks to Pakistan's love or should I say lust for F16). We are limiting our selves here. 
So, the way to Pakistans air defense should not only rely on F16, thats all I want to say. Russia is not that unreliable, at least not more than what USA did to us in 1965 and 1971. Lets find other(better friends for Pakistan). I am not saying that we should go against USA, but see, there may be more and of course better friends.

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## nomi007

hope paf will increase its fleet of f-16s upto 100+


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## Quwa

Piper said:


> New contract in this case or fulfilment of the old one?
> 
> Also are the birds coming from the boneyard or are they freshly minted


Brand new. Boneyard planes would come through the Excess Defence Articles (EDA) program and be given structural restoration and the Common Configuration Implementation Program (CCIP), which equips the used F-16C/Ds with the same electronics as a Block-52+. The total cost for such a program would be half of what the price the PAF agreed to for the new Block-52+.

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## Paksanity

Piper said:


> New contract in this case or fulfilment of the old one?
> 
> Also are the birds coming from the boneyard or are they freshly minted



Folks at Fort Worth ain't going out of work any time soon. Cheers to that mate

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## Piper

Paksanity said:


> Folks at Fort Worth ain't going out of work any time soon. Cheers to that mate



That is one of the single biggest case for Pakistan having continued access to F-16 Jets notwithstanding Indian opposition. Congress would always make way for Pakistan if it means their constituents keep their job no matter how much India lobbies in senate and congress.

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## Tehmasib

If US sanctions again on this deal !!!! I sure nothing serious for PAF (futuristic thought)


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## Paksanity

Piper said:


> That is one of the single biggest case for Pakistan having continued access to F-16 Jets notwithstanding Indian opposition. Congress would always make way for Pakistan if it means their constituents keep their job no matter how much India lobbies in senate and congress.



Yup. Our embassy hasn't been very good at driving such points home. Word has it that Pakistan will order more new ones thus creating / sustaining more US jobs. On a non defence side G.E. has got some good business from Pakistan recently. They are manufacturing 55 locomotives for our railways with likely more to follow. There will be a lot of appetite for locomotives as rail lines will extend from Gawadar port to China and from coal deposits in Thar to power plants across Pakistan. G.E. has just finished building first of 9HA gas turbine for Pakistan. 9HA is world's largest gas turbine and first of its kind to be installed at Bhikki power plant in Pakistan. Just look at the size of this thing They Might Be Giants: The World’s Largest Gas Turbines Will Light Up Pakistan - GE Reports

Upcoming wind energy farms will also use G.E. turbines and I believe deal has been signed. G.E. has gained some good business in Pakistan recently and future looks good too as Pakistan is spending on power generation and infrastructure where G.E. is a specialist. Our diplomats should emphasise this aspect to Americans. Our dealing with US not only works in favour of global US interests but also creates jobs and wealth for common Americans.

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## khanasifm

Not sure how current this info is but year worth of production backlog (2016 18 ) @ rate of 1-2 aircraft unless additional orders are placed , PAF 8 are not part of backlog i assume

F-16 Fleet Reports - F-16 aircraft orders

2014 news
Approximately 40 new-build Block 50 aircraft are in the backlog, in theory extending production to 2017.
Rival F-16 Upgrades Proceed; Iraq Delivery May Not | Defense News: Aviation International News

An investor's introduction to Lockheed Martin Corporation - Market Realist


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## mingle

Piper said:


> That is one of the single biggest case for Pakistan having continued access to F-16 Jets notwithstanding Indian opposition. Congress would always make way for Pakistan if it means their constituents keep their job no matter how much India lobbies in senate and congress.


I think we will go original numbers that been planned before earthquick 2005 that 56 to 75 new ones so with these 8 it gonna be 26 new ones look another order down the road for these beautiful birds .jorden is also looking 15 jets newly built so LM will keep these lines opens another 5 yrs or so .i must say PAF romance with these jets will never end .


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## fatman17

Piper said:


> New contract in this case or fulfilment of the old one?
> 
> Also are the birds coming from the boneyard or are they freshly minted



New


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## ghazi52

Nice development....................


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## IrbiS

Good news! 


Sadly a confirmation too that NO AESA should be expected.

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## spirit rider

can some body share the technical specs of sniper targeting pod (for pakistani version as well as the top of the line one). thank you


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## fatman17

Defending the deal, US Ambassador Olson said, “It’s our belief that the F-16s have been used very effectively. The precision strike capability to take out terrorist targets, including safe havens that threaten our forces in Afghanistan.”

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## HRK



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## HRK



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## khanasifm

f16 cft were developed to compete with f15e bid for Israel AF and later adopted on blk 50 52, if am not mistaken


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## khanasifm

Bottom line for its size and weight it the best out there beating f18 for USAF in the competition and testimony for being the largest operated aircraft in the world

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## khanasifm

APG 68 v9 with 2 ft sar image is unmatched by any fighter even su 3x and its does provide 6 on 6 missile shot capability

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## Khafee

Piper said:


> New contract in this case or fulfilment of the old one?
> 
> Also are the birds coming from the boneyard or are they freshly minted


Fresh.



spirit rider said:


> can some body share the technical specs of sniper targeting pod (for pakistani version as well as the top of the line one). thank you


Please vist the following website:
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/Sniper.html

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/ne...rtin-sniper-advanced-targeting-pod-fleet.html



HRK said:


> View attachment 294467


PAF has done it in less than 180mins in exercises. @Windjammer ?



fatman17 said:


> Defending the deal, US Ambassador Olson said, “It’s our belief that the F-16s have been used very effectively. The precision strike capability to take out terrorist targets, including safe havens that threaten our forces in Afghanistan.”


Thank God he didn't say it in India, otherwise the presstitutes would be chewing his head off.

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## TaimiKhan

Guys where is the pic of PAF F-16 with 8 AMRAAMs ?


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## Windjammer

TaimiKhan said:


> Guys where is the pic of PAF F-16 with 8 AMRAAMs ?


That was a PS image, any ways, here's a PAF F-16 armed with 12 MK-84 bombs.

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## ziaulislam

Windjammer said:


> That was a PS image, any ways, here's a PAF F-16 armed with 12 MK-84 bombs.


i believe you mean mark 82 right..
i mean mark 84 are 2000lb bombs!?

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## Major Sam

Khafee said:


> Fresh.
> 
> 
> Please vist the following website:
> http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/Sniper.html
> 
> http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/ne...rtin-sniper-advanced-targeting-pod-fleet.html
> 
> 
> PAF has done it in less than 180mins in exercises. @Windjammer ?
> 
> 
> Thank God he didn't say it in India, otherwise the presstitutes would be chewing his head off.



Do you know the range of Sniper Pod? What other pod we have in PAF comparable with sniper ?


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## nomi007




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## Imran Khan

nomi007 said:


>


15 JAN 1983 when we received first f-16 till today 33 years, 1 month, 17 days and PAF love it like pakistani public love honda CD bike since last 40 years

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## alimobin memon

what does SAR radar capability provides that makes it better IN AA role ?


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## Paksanity

Imran Khan said:


> 15 JAN 1983 when we received first f-16 till today 33 years, 1 month, 17 days and PAF love it like pakistani public love honda CD bike since last 40 years




Yeah....it's weird. I can never understand this type of obsession. Just look at this 1984 Porsche 911...






And guess what? There are stupid people on this planet who are still buying Porsche 911 in 2016! How stupid one can get?

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## Asifkamal

I totally agree. Its not 2003 even, what to talk about 1983. I was a child when ptv khabarnama in 1983 announced first 3 f16 entereing pakistani skies. Now after 33 years, we are still considering it as best option??? And what to atalk about that we have infrastructure for it. Egypt purchased rafale and mig 29 in same year.Though they are operating f16 since 3 decades.can,t we induldge a new aircraft? Why not try for grippen, eurofighter or su35?? If we can purchase 6 to 8 chinease submarienes at 4 to 5 billion dollars, why not 60 lettest fighter aircrafts. These subs will not defend us against rafale or su30. And time is running ....

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## araz

Asifkamal said:


> I totally agree. Its not 2003 even, what to talk about 1983. I was a child when ptv khabarnama in 1983 announced first 3 f16 entereing pakistani skies. Now after 33 years, we are still considering it as best option??? And what to atalk about that we have infrastructure for it. Egypt purchased rafale and mig 29 in same year.Though they are operating f16 since 3 decades.can,t we induldge a new aircraft? Why not try for grippen, eurofighter or su35?? If we can purchase 6 to 8 chinease submarienes at 4 to 5 billion dollars, why not 60 lettest fighter aircrafts. These subs will not defend us against rafale or su30. And time is running ....


Your querries have been discussed to death. Please read thelast 100 pages for the reasons why F16s are being procured.
A

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## fatman17

Asifkamal said:


> I totally agree. Its not 2003 even, what to talk about 1983. I was a child when ptv khabarnama in 1983 announced first 3 f16 entereing pakistani skies. Now after 33 years, we are still considering it as best option??? And what to atalk about that we have infrastructure for it. Egypt purchased rafale and mig 29 in same year.Though they are operating f16 since 3 decades.can,t we induldge a new aircraft? Why not try for grippen, eurofighter or su35?? If we can purchase 6 to 8 chinease submarienes at 4 to 5 billion dollars, why not 60 lettest fighter aircrafts. These subs will not defend us against rafale or su30. And time is running ....



Egypt s Rafale and MiG 29s subsidised by KSA.

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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> Egypt s Rafale and MiG 29s subsidised by KSA.


completely paid!..so are there f-16s!

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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> completely paid!..so are there f-16s!



Correct paid by KSA. Egypt is in dire straits

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## volatile

KSA paid for all recent Egypt major purchases .Egyptian are at the moment milking Saudi`s like any thing

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## Aamir Hussain

Those were the dividends of first gulf war for Egypt. As usual we dithered and squarely sat on the wall.

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## humza_313

Viper Closeup


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## fatman17

Aamir Hussain said:


> Those were the dividends of first gulf war for Egypt. As usual we dithered and squarely sat on the wall.



Actually to reward sissi for over throwing the Muslim brotherhood govt.

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## aziqbal

Aamir Hussain said:


> Those were the dividends of first gulf war for Egypt. As usual we dithered and squarely sat on the wall.



Yes and the deal is if KSA requires support Egypt will have to make those assets available like it or not

Same way USA weighs in for its allies then those allies needs to make available when required

KSA isn't giving away money for free there is always a agenda, recent war in Yemen is good example


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## MastanKhan

Asifkamal said:


> I totally agree. Its not 2003 even, what to talk about 1983. I was a child when ptv khabarnama in 1983 announced first 3 f16 entereing pakistani skies. Now after 33 years, we are still considering it as best option??? And what to atalk about that we have infrastructure for it. Egypt purchased rafale and mig 29 in same year.Though they are operating f16 since 3 decades.can,t we induldge a new aircraft? Why not try for grippen, eurofighter or su35?? If we can purchase 6 to 8 chinease submarienes at 4 to 5 billion dollars, why not 60 lettest fighter aircrafts. These subs will not defend us against rafale or su30. And time is running ....




Hi,

You are absolutely correct---the subs won't protect against the SU's and rafales---the 5 billion would have been better spent 3 billion SU35 and SU 34 and 2 billion on 052 054 type frigates


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## fatman17

The Express Tribune



 
*US senator does not expect Pakistan F-16 sale to be blocked*
Senator Paul invoked legislation to stop sale by passing Resolution of Disapproval, calling Pakistan an uncertain ally
By Reuters 
Published: March 10, 2016


A Pakistani F-16 fighter performs during a ceremony marking Pakistan Defence Day in Islamabad, Pakistan, September 6, 2015. PHOTO: REUTERS

*WASHINGTON: *US Senator Ben Cardin, the top Democrat on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said on Wednesday he does not expect an upcoming vote on a $700 million sale of F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan to keep the deal from going ahead.

However, he said there was still discussion of whether US taxpayer funds could be used to finance the purchase.

*Arms transfer: US issues notification of F-16 sale to Pakistan*

President Barack Obama’s administration announced on Feb 12 that it had approved the sale of the Lockheed Martin Corp aircraft as well as radars and other equipment to Pakistan.

It drew immediate criticism from India and concern from some members of Congress.

Republican Senator Rand Paul in late February invoked legislation known as the Arms Export Control Act in the hope of stopping the sale by passing a Resolution of Disapproval, calling Pakistan “an uncertain ally.”

Cardin told reporters he opposed Paul’s resolution and expected it would fail, with the chamber’s Republican and Democratic leaders opposing it. The measure could be taken up by the Senate as soon as Thursday.

Cardin said lawmakers had concerns about Pakistan’s nuclear program, commitment to fighting terrorist organisations and cooperation in the Afghanistan peace process but generally supported the sale.

*Kerry defends proposed sale of F-16s to Pakistan*

“It was not controversial that Pakistan needs to modernize its air force and its counter insurgency and counter-terrorism activities, particularly in the mountainous territory of the border with Afghanistan,” he said.

Congress is currently considering a request to “reprogram” some funds, in other words, use them for a different purpose than allocated in a budget bill, to help finance the deal.

Cardin said he was not yet prepared to make a judgment on whether US taxpayer funds should be used to help Pakistan with the purchase.


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## mingle

According Haris PDF PAF intending to buy 10 more new BlK 52s


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## Bratva

araz said:


> Your querries have been discussed to death. Please read thelast 100 pages for the reasons why F16s are being procured.
> A





_Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., the chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, urged his colleagues to reject Paul's measure and allow the sale to proceed. Corker acknowledged that Pakistan has been "duplicitous" with the United States, but said rejecting the sale would have publicly embarrassed Islamabad and led Pakistan to buy fighters from Russia or France.


Corker said that he and Sen. Ben Cardin of Maryland, the top Democrat on the committee, have agreed to bar the use of any U.S. financial support for the deal until "there are behavior changes that take place in Pakistan."


The sale also gives the U.S. leverage over the long haul with Islamabad, Corker said. The F-16 deal comes with 30 years of maintenance, which Corker said could be withdrawn at any time. That would leave Pakistan without the parts and expertise to keep the high-tech aircraft in the air._


*"Publicly embarrassing them and sending them to Russia or to France to buy fighter jets ends that leverage," Corker said.*

Source: Bid to block Pakistan F-16 sale fails in U.S. Senate


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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> According Haris PDF PAF intending to buy 10 more new BlK 52s


yes clearly mentioned previously by air chief that they wanted 18 but they didnt had money for 18 just for 8!!
it seems we are paying for these from our pockets(through probably the US assistance that comes for covering operational costs and transit fees)


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## MastanKhan

Bratva said:


> _Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., the chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, urged his colleagues to reject Paul's measure and allow the sale to proceed. Corker acknowledged that Pakistan has been "duplicitous" with the United States, but said rejecting the sale would have publicly embarrassed Islamabad and led Pakistan to buy fighters from Russia or France.
> 
> 
> Corker said that he and Sen. Ben Cardin of Maryland, the top Democrat on the committee, have agreed to bar the use of any U.S. financial support for the deal until "there are behavior changes that take place in Pakistan."
> 
> 
> The sale also gives the U.S. leverage over the long haul with Islamabad, Corker said. The F-16 deal comes with 30 years of maintenance, which Corker said could be withdrawn at any time. That would leave Pakistan without the parts and expertise to keep the high-tech aircraft in the air._
> 
> 
> *"Publicly embarrassing them and sending them to Russia or to France to buy fighter jets ends that leverage," Corker said.*
> 
> Source: Bid to block Pakistan F-16 sale fails in U.S. Senate




Hi,

So that inadvertantly means that the chief of pakistan air force is committing treason against the state.

And that is being clearly stated by the good senator----give them enough rope to hang thesleves---give them the F16's and they will strangulate themselves with it.

I was not wrong.

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## Quwa

Bratva said:


> _Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., the chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, urged his colleagues to reject Paul's measure and allow the sale to proceed. Corker acknowledged that Pakistan has been "duplicitous" with the United States, but said rejecting the sale would have publicly embarrassed Islamabad and led Pakistan to buy fighters from Russia or France.
> 
> 
> Corker said that he and Sen. Ben Cardin of Maryland, the top Democrat on the committee, have agreed to bar the use of any U.S. financial support for the deal until "there are behavior changes that take place in Pakistan."
> 
> 
> The sale also gives the U.S. leverage over the long haul with Islamabad, Corker said. The F-16 deal comes with 30 years of maintenance, which Corker said could be withdrawn at any time. That would leave Pakistan without the parts and expertise to keep the high-tech aircraft in the air._
> 
> 
> *"Publicly embarrassing them and sending them to Russia or to France to buy fighter jets ends that leverage," Corker said.*
> 
> Source: Bid to block Pakistan F-16 sale fails in U.S. Senate


Sounds like Corker was anticipating a breakdown in Dassault's deal with India, and a quick-fire Rafale sale to Pakistan in its place. The defence world would go abuzz.

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## Paksanity

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> So that inadvertantly means that the chief of pakistan air force is committing treason against the state.
> 
> And that is being clearly stated by the good senator----give them enough rope to hang thesleves---give them the F16's and they will strangulate themselves with it.
> 
> I was not wrong.



All F-16 sales come with same conditions to 25 different nations. At least 25 Air Chiefs committed this treason world over. Your logic makes every arm import a treason.

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## Khafee

ziaulislam said:


> completely paid!..so are there f-16s!


No the Egyptian F-16's come free from the US as per the '79 Camp David accord.
Camp David Accords and the Arab-Israeli Peace Process - 1977–1980 - Milestones - Office of the Historian

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## Cool Mind

Pakistan need F-16 from america to war against terror. Latest tech can help us to control over terror.

American Senator Bean Carton


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## Paksanity

MastanKhan said:


> WTF---are you going stupid now----. Are you that much out of your mind----what other nation has a conflict with the U S like pakistan----have you lost your marbles----.
> 
> What other 24 nations has the U S sanctioned prior----.
> 
> Are you so immune to your stupidity that you don't even realize what you are saying---.



Pakistan does not have conflict with US nor is likely to have. No other nation went nuclear way against US wishes. Yet some were sanctioned. Yet they went for US weapons again e.g. Egypt. Air Chief does not have the crystal ball. Yet. He has no control over diplomacy and budget. He has to do within what little room he has. Most people including professionals and even Indians think Air Force has got a genuinely good deal. Some including you sir, do not. In the end, it is his opinion which matters most. I do not see how his actions can be called treason (that's a pretty heavy word)? In the absence of reliable crystal ball and unlikely event of sanctions, it will at best be called 'error in judgement'. Yet it will not hurt Pakistan's interests as bad since we already have Chinese aircraft too.


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## mingle

Quwa said:


> Sounds like Corker was anticipating a breakdown in Dassault's deal with India, and a quick-fire Rafale sale to Pakistan in its place. The defence world would go abuzz.


I don't think but a separate deal is possible with Pak either French or British .


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## MastanKhan

Paksanity said:


> Pakistan does not have conflict with US nor is likely to have. No other nation went nuclear way against US wishes. Yet some were sanctioned. Yet they went for US weapons again e.g. Egypt. Air Chief does not have the crystal ball. Yet. He has no control over diplomacy and budget. He has to do within what little room he has. Most people including professionals and even Indians think Air Force has got a genuinely good deal. Some including you sir, do not. In the end, it is his opinion which matters most. I do not see how his actions can be called treason (that's a pretty heavy word)? In the absence of reliable crystal ball and unlikely event of sanctions, it will at best be called 'error in judgement'. Yet it will not hurt Pakistan's interests as bad since we already have Chinese aircraft too.




Sir,

Please name one nation who was sanctioned and went back for the F16's and did not have an alternate primary or superior aircraft.

The paf does have a great deal---but not without a parallel capability or another superior aircraft.

The air chief has the crystal ball---the senator is telling him what he will do in due time---like in a same manner another senator was telling pakistan what he would do years ago.

What else is a crystal ball if that is not the one----. Or is your definition of a crystal ball is like until a rock does not fall on the head till then the future cannot be foretold!

This is not a frigging office work that there is an ERROR IN JUDGEMENT---this is a war machine---error in judgement mean loss of nation hood---ERROR IN JUDGEMENTS ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE-----ohhhhhhh---doobly gookkkk----sorry---I had an error in judgement---everybody was telling me that there might be sanctions coming----but I took the gamble-----so sorry. Fight your war now on your own---I am already retired and living in the west with my family ( ACM )----

Kid grow up----there is no recourse in the middle of a war---.

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## ziaulislam

Khafee said:


> No the Egyptian F-16's come free from the US as per the '79 Camp David accord.
> Camp David Accords and the Arab-Israeli Peace Process - 1977–1980 - Milestones - Office of the Historian


i meant they come free..obviously saudi dont pay for the f-16 uncle sam does
every body knows that


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## khanasifm

Additional F-16s for Pakistan may hit hurdles


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## sami_1

fatman17 said:


> Correct paid by KSA. Egypt is in dire straits










Are you kidding Egypt bought weapons negotiate Other exceed 20 billion dollars in two years

4 GoWIND Corvette 1.4 Billion euro

Buy the Rafale and the FREMM multipurpose frigate valued at 5.2 billion euros

2 MISTRAL LHD billion dollar
Egypt Buys Mistrals; Kitting Out With KA-52 & KA-52K worth two billion dollars
Other deal
Egypt is seeking radio and electronic equipment worth at least US $ 1 billion to equip and ope-rationalize the Mistral helicopter carriers.

Russian Firm: Progress Made To Equip Radio Systems for Egyptian Carriers

A preliminary deal with Russia worth $ 3.5 billion
Other deal to buy 50 MiG-35 $ 2.2 billion
Under Negotiation
Other deal to buy 10 jets NH90 more latter 






Other deal to buy 12 A400M $ 2 billion



There are negotiations to buy 12-24 Sukhoi 35 aircraft this year
The negotiations for the purchase of 2 corvette GOWIND and 2 passage of a ship coastal worth $ 580 million
Under the negotiated contracts Bamh 2 billion dollars to more evil S-air defense batteries 300V4 and BUK-MUE







Under the negotiated contract for the purchase of between 6-12 IL-76MD-90A






Under the negotiated contract for the production of T-14 Armata in Egypt and the T-15 and a contract for the production of 600 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV's deal to exceed $ 6 billion
Egypt is currently negotiating to buy the new batch fighter contested by MIG-35 & J-10B to replace the J-7 & MIRAGE-5

Gulf gave Egypt granting loans and economic, not military

Egyptian President denied that the Gulf pay for arms deals and it was overpriced stores Egyptian army over 20 years


The dire situation in fact some think


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## ZedZeeshan

I Saudi's gave helped them buy these weapons. Nawaz Shareef will seek help in metro train Projects...lol

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## ejaz007

*The Government of Pakistan – F-16 Block 52 Aircraft*

WASHINGTON, Feb. 12, 2016 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Pakistan for F-16 Block 52 Aircraft, equipment, training, and logistics support. The estimated cost is $699.04 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on February 11, 2016.

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of:

Major Defense Equipment (MDE):
Eight (8) F-16 Block 52 aircraft (two (2) C and six (6) D models), with the F100-PW-229 increased
performance engine
Fourteen (14) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)

Non-MDE items included in this request are eight (8) AN/APG-68(V)9 radars, and eight (8) ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites (AIDEWS). Additionally, this possible sale includes spare and repair parts, support and test equipment, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistical and program support. The estimated cost of MDE is $564.68 million. The total estimated cost is $699.04 million.

This proposed sale contributes to U.S. foreign policy objectives and national security goals by helping to improve the security of a strategic partner in South Asia.

The proposed sale improves Pakistan's capability to meet current and future security threats. These additional F-16 aircraft will facilitate operations in all-weather, non-daylight environments, provide a self-defense/area suppression capability, and enhance Pakistan’s ability to conduct counter-insurgency and counterterrorism operations.

This sale will increase the number of aircraft available to the Pakistan Air Force to sustain operations, meet monthly training requirements, and support transition training for pilots new to the Block-52. Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing these additional aircraft into its air force.

The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.

Contractors have not been selected to support this proposed sale. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.

Implementation of this proposed sale will not require the assignment of any additional U.S. Government or contractor representatives to Pakistan.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.

All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, pm-cpa@state.gov.

-30-

The Government of Pakistan – F-16 Block 52 Aircraft | The Official Home of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency


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## nomi007

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153253600976191


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## nomi007



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## mingle

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 301673


If both r not trust worthy then why selling them hardware ?its called double standerds .


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## SQ8

mingle said:


> If both r not trust worthy then why selling them hardware ?its called double standerds .


Its called geopolitics. Pakistan can be cursed all the time but if they are willing to sell required hardware then there is no problem in getting it.


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## nomi007

mingle said:


> If both r not trust worthy then why selling them hardware ?its called double standerds .


pakistan is their need


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## _NOBODY_

Is it possible to upgrade our F-16 C/D block 52 with AESA radar, if yes then is PAF willing to do it ?
@Horus @Quwa @The Eagle @Oscar @C130 @Windjammer @ACE OF THE AIR @Tank131 @Bilal Khan 777


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## C130

TheGreatOne said:


> Is it possible to upgrade our F-16 C/D block 52 with AESA radar, if yes then is PAF willing to do it ?
> @Horus @Quwa @The Eagle @Oscar @C130 @Windjammer @ACE OF THE AIR @Tank131 @Bilal Khan 777




yes any F-16 can be upgraded to the Sabre AESA.






the upgrade to F-16V along with HMS+Aim-9X would make Pakistan F-16 immensely more capable.

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## MastanKhan

TheGreatOne said:


> Is it possible to upgrade our F-16 C/D block 52 with AESA radar, if yes then is PAF willing to do it ?
> @Horus @Quwa @The Eagle @Oscar @C130 @Windjammer @ACE OF THE AIR @Tank131 @Bilal Khan 777



Hi,

SABR aesa is developed for that reason---to be installed in the F16's.



mingle said:


> If both r not trust worthy then why selling them hardware ?its called double standerds .



Hi,

The reason for the sale is---afterwards you get to control them. The equipment is the bait----once the bait is taken---the the line is pulled to sink the hook deep inside---.

Once the hook sets in---then you have control---.

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## _NOBODY_

@C130 Thank you for sharing that video, since all of our previous F-16s were upgraded to block 40 and no airframe structural modification is required for equipping SABR AESA radar to our entire F-16 fleet then why doesn't PAF go for it as it is much cheaper as compared to acquiring a new platform ?
@Horus @Quwa @The Eagle @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Windjammer @ACE OF THE AIR @Bilal Khan 777

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## MastanKhan

TheGreatOne said:


> @C130 Thank you for sharing that video, since all of our previous F-16s were upgraded to block 40 and no airframe structural modification is required for equipping SABR AESA radar to our entire F-16 fleet then why doesn't PAF go for it as it is much cheaper as compared to acquiring a new platform ?
> @Horus @Quwa @The Eagle @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Windjammer @ACE OF THE AIR @Bilal Khan 777




Hi,

Neither they had the ballz---nor the strategy to approach the americans for that..

Aesa is a game changer----. Paf should have leased 2 sqdrns of J10C with aesa---then they should have asked the U S for aesa for the F16---.


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## _NOBODY_

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Neither they had the ballz---nor the strategy to approach the americans for that..
> 
> Aesa is a game changer----. Paf should have leased 2 sqdrns of J10C with aesa---then they should have asked the U S for aesa for the F16---.


*I think what you are saying is that US will only offer us what we already have, if yes then JF-17 block 3 will have AESA radar*. The only other 4++ generation platforms(except J-31) that Pakistan is interested in are Eurofighter Typhoon and Su-35(for navy not for airforce) and as for J-10C we don't need it since we have F-16 plus it would be a logistical nightmare for us.


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## volatile

Balls were always there when PAF opted in 2005 MLU/Block 52 + the kit available was best option of the time and it proved useful for last decade or so .AESA kit developed more recently with changing dimension ,we can only get AESA from US for F16 if we have already incorporated this tech in F17 or J10C (By the way J10C is still not out of race for PAF) it has been evaluated and certain recommendations for improvement were asked ,PAF planners are waiting for Rafale deal to settle 1st based on the package a customized delta configuration plan has great chances to come


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## MastanKhan

TheGreatOne said:


> *I think what you are saying is that US will only offer us what we already have, if yes then JF-17 block 3 will have AESA radar*. The only other 4++ generation platforms(except J-31) that Pakistan is interested in are Eurofighter Typhoon and Su-35(for navy not for airforce) and as for J-10C we don't need it since we have F-16 plus it would be a logistical nightmare for us.



Hi,

Your level of potency needs to be way above the american product---so that there may not be an excuse by the senate / congress that they are tilting the tables in our favor.

Secondly----it also resolves the future threat of the sanctions which were openly made in the past and recent past.

So---you are killing three birds with a stone---you get the J10C with aesa---which is open to future upgrade for years to come---you get the aesa for your F16---which takes it to a higher level of potency----

And thirdly---the western vendors also look at you favorably to offer their electronics package for the JF17's---.

But---in order for all that to happen---you have to make a sacrifice---it is a mental sacrifice---get the J10C's with aesa----. Break the barrier---break the wall---things will happen.



volatile said:


> Balls were always there when PAF opted in 2005 MLU/Block 52 + the kit available was best option of the time and it proved useful for last decade or so .AESA kit developed more recently with changing dimension ,we can only get AESA from US for F16 if we have already incorporated this tech in F17 or J10C (By the way J10C is still not out of race for PAF) it has been evaluated and certain recommendations for improvement were asked ,PAF planners are waiting for Rafale deal to settle 1st based on the package a customized delta configuration plan has great chances to come



Hi,

That is a total wastage of time----. The rafale package is predictable---.

In 4 years time---paf would have integrated the aircraft and performed the needed modifications and made recommendations while learning to fly the aircraft just like they did with the JF17.


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## Stephen Cohen

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your level of potency needs to be way above the american product---so thjat there may not be an excuse by the senate / congress that they are tilting the tables in our favor.
> 
> Secondly----it alose resolves the future threat of the sanctions which were openly made in the past and recent past.
> 
> So---you are killing three birds with a stone---you get the J10C with aesa---which is open to future upgrade for years to come---you get the aesa for your F16---which takes it to a higher level of potency----
> 
> And thirdly---the western vendors also look at you favorably to offer their electronics package for the JF17's---.
> 
> But---in order for all that to happen---you have to make a sacrifice---it is a mental sacrifice---get the J10C's with aesa----. Break the barrier---break the wall---things will happen.



Dear Sir 

why dont you write directly to PAF HQ ; all your ideas about
JH 7 ; J 10 C ; enlarging the JF 17 ; AESA for F 16 

Dont you think your ideas NEED to REACH the Right persons 

Do the PAF authorities read PDF ??


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## volatile

Stephen Cohen said:


> Dear Sir
> 
> why dont you write directly to PAF HQ ; all your ideas about
> JH 7 ; J 10 C ; enlarging the JF 17 ; AESA for F 16
> 
> Dont you think your ideas NEED to REACH the Right persons
> 
> Do the PAF authorities read PDF ??


Dear Friend this forum is a place where PAF enthusiastic get to gether take out there frustation .If you want people to write to PAF then there will be writing by some members 
100 J10C
100 JH7B
100 SU35 
50 Euro 

and wish list goes on and on .Facts are professional people know what they are doing at the moment tech gap has narrowed vastly in the last few years and without putting burden on financial resources . 


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is a total wastage of time----. The rafale package is predictable---.
> 
> In 4 years time---paf would have integrated the aircraft and performed the needed modifications and made recommendations while learning to fly the aircraft just like they did with the JF17.




J10 C is unproven platform and already a similar project like F17 was taken it will not make sense to put unproven platforms together in tandem .J10C option why seems so lucrative is due to cheapest of all the available resources

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## _NOBODY_

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your level of potency needs to be way above the american product---so that there may not be an excuse by the senate / congress that they are tilting the tables in our favor.
> 
> Secondly----it also resolves the future threat of the sanctions which were openly made in the past and recent past.
> 
> So---you are killing three birds with a stone---you get the J10C with aesa---which is open to future upgrade for years to come---you get the aesa for your F16---which takes it to a higher level of potency----
> 
> And thirdly---the western vendors also look at you favorably to offer their electronics package for the JF17's---.
> 
> But---in order for all that to happen---you have to make a sacrifice---it is a mental sacrifice---get the J10C's with aesa----. Break the barrier---break the wall---things will happen.


On one of your posts you wrote that PAF has money, so I say that we should go for Typhoon. We can induct it in small numbers in the beginning since we would not be in a hurry to complete a squadron. If we bought Typhoon it would allow us to get our hands on Typhoon avionics and EJ-200 for JF-17. If we don't have the money then we should take soft loans from Saudi Arabia or China. As soon as the Rafale deal is signed we should go for Typhoon.
@The Eagle @Quwa


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## MastanKhan

volatile said:


> Dear Friend this forum is a place where PAF enthusiastic get to gether take out there frustation .If you want people to write to PAF then there will be writing by some members
> 100 J10C
> 100 JH7B
> 100 SU35
> 50 Euro
> 
> and wish list goes on and on .Facts are professional people know what they are doing at the moment tech gap has narrowed vastly in the last few years and without putting burden on financial resources .
> 
> 
> 
> J10 C is unproven platform and already a similar project like F17 was taken it will not make sense to put unproven platforms together in tandem .J10C option why seems so lucrative is due to cheapest of all the available resources



Hi,

The F16 was unproven when paf got it----the F7PG was unproven---the Rafale was unproven that is why paf did not buy it in 2004---the mirage 2 k was unproven in 1985-86----.

There is a long list of unproven aircraft that have become formidable fighter aircraft---.

Senor---when you buy a steak---you take the butcher's word for it---you don't stick your head in the bull's ar-se to make sure.



TheGreatOne said:


> On one of your posts you wrote that PAF has money, so I say that we should go for Typhoon. We can induct it in small numbers in the beginning since we would not be in a hurry to complete a squadron. If we bought Typhoon it would allow us to get our hands on Typhoon avionics and EJ-200 for JF-17. If we don't have the money then we should take soft loans from Saudi Arabia or China. As soon as the Rafale deal is signed we should go for Typhoon.
> @The Eagle @Quwa




Hi,

Well---that is what the air chief claimed when he was visiting the U S last time----he told the americans---we have other options if you don't sell---and the U S senator was reffering to those other options when he stated---if we don't sell other will and we will lose control.

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## volatile

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The F16 was unproven when paf got it----the F7PG was unproven---the Rafale was unproven that is why paf did not buy it in 2004---the mirage 2 k was unproven in 1985-86----.
> 
> There is a long list of unproven aircraft that have become formidable fighter aircraft---.
> 
> Senor---when you buy a steak---you take the butcher's word for it---you don't stick your head in the bull's ar-se to make sure.


Nice way of putting like that , From a professional point of view 2 untested platforms did we ever inducted 2 untested almost the same time and this argument is valid, my personal opinion great loss to PAF missing out on J10B in 2006 cost was not an issue at that time but we opted for US camp as that time PAF Air chief mentioned some thing like that we have other options and US approves block 52+ .On a personal not Lock Heed Martin did they bribed some of our officials for thus ?

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## MastanKhan

volatile said:


> Nice way of putting like that , From a professional point of view 2 untested platforms did we ever inducted 2 untested almost the same time and this argument is valid, my personal opinion great loss to PAF missing out on J10B in 2006 cost was not an issue at that time but we opted for US camp as that time PAF Air chief mentioned some thing like that we have other options and US approves block 52+ .On a personal not Lock Heed Martin did they bribed some of our officials for thus ?




Hi,

The U S companies don't bribe---but they offer other perks to our generals..

I think the worst mistake was not buying the Rafale in 2003-04---. Would have totally sabotaged the indian air force---they would have no where to go---a classic coupe de grace---.

That was the second failure by the paf in 18 years---the previous one was not buying the mirage 2 k when it came out----.

All the advisor told the paf buy the m2k---as a second option so that you won't get sanctions on the F16 like before---but no---paf went ahead and paif for the F16---.

Same thing---if paf had bought those m2k's in the 80's----!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## MastanKhan

Enjoy the read peole

*Dynamic Duo: How the A-10 and F-35 Stealth Fighter Can Work Togeather*

*http://www.nationalinterest.org/blo...ow-the-10-f-35-stealth-fighter-can-work-15914*

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## IrbiS

TheGreatOne said:


> Is it possible to upgrade our F-16 C/D block 52 with AESA radar, if yes then is PAF willing to do it ?
> @Horus @Quwa @The Eagle @Oscar @C130 @Windjammer @ACE OF THE AIR @Tank131 @Bilal Khan 777




Don't you think it's safer to spend a billion dollars buying French avionics/weopanry for JF-17 than buying 70-odd AESAs for F-16s?

Though I wouldn't mind if we somehow get U.S to pay atleast half of it


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## ali_raza

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The U S companies don't bribe---but they offer other perks to our generals..
> 
> I think the worst mistake was not buying the Rafale in 2003-04---. Would have totally sabotaged the indian air force---they would have no where to go---a classic coupe de grace---.
> 
> That was the second failure by the paf in 18 years---the previous one was not buying the mirage 2 k when it came out----.
> 
> All the advisor told the paf buy the m2k---as a second option so that you won't get sanctions on the F16 like before---but no---paf went ahead and paif for the F16---.
> 
> Same thing---if paf had bought those m2k's in the 80's----!!!!!!!!!!!!!


exactly all ur posts have vision in them

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## _NOBODY_

IrbiS said:


> Don't you think it's safer to spend a billion dollars buying French avionics/weopanry for JF-17 than buying 70-odd AESAs for F-16s?
> 
> Though I wouldn't mind if we somehow get U.S to pay atleast half of it


F-16 with AESA would give us an edge over Su-30MKI. Why are you so obsessed with French equipment, after the Rafale deal French will not sell their avionics and weaponry to us. So I say that we should go for Typhoon. We can induct it in small numbers in the beginning since we would not be in a hurry to complete a squadron. If we bought Typhoon it would allow us to get our hands on Typhoon avionics and EJ-200 for JF-17. If we don't have the money then we should take soft loans from Saudi Arabia or China. As soon as the Rafale deal is signed we should go for Typhoon. Forget the French we lost them.

@MastanKhan when you replied to my previous post you never said that we should go for Typhoon or not. Besides F-16 a twin engine 4++ generation platform(except J-31) is required to counter Rafale and the only ones that are good enough are Typhoon and F-15SE. US won't sell us F-15SE so Typhoon is the only option left plus Typhoon is even superior to Rafale. I know that Typhoon is extremely expensive, if we have the money for it then it's all good but if we don't then we should take soft loans from China and Saudi Arabia.
@Horus @The Eagle @Quwa @Windjammer


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## MastanKhan

TheGreatOne said:


> F-16 with AESA would give us an edge over Su-30MKI. Why are you so obsessed with French equipment, after the Rafale deal French will not sell their avionics and weaponry to us. So I say that we should go for Typhoon. We can induct it in small numbers in the beginning since we would not be in a hurry to complete a squadron. If we bought Typhoon it would allow us to get our hands on Typhoon avionics and EJ-200 for JF-17. If we don't have the money then we should take soft loans from Saudi Arabia or China. As soon as the Rafale deal is signed we should go for Typhoon. Forget the French we lost them.
> 
> @MastanKhan when you replied to my previous post you never said that we should go for Typhoon or not. Besides F-16 a twin engine 4++ generation platform(except J-31) is required to counter Rafale and the only ones that are good enough are Typhoon and F-15SE. US won't sell us F-15SE so Typhoon is the only option left plus Typhoon is even superior to Rafale. I know that Typhoon is extremely expensive, if we have the money for it then it's all good but if we don't then we should take soft loans from China and Saudi Arabia.
> @Horus @The Eagle @Quwa @Windjammer




Hi,

We need to invest in the J10C---the money that is spent on the Typhoon would be too much----.

There is still around 4 years time frame---good enough time to make some serious changes.

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## volatile

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The U S companies don't bribe---but they offer other perks to our generals..
> 
> I think the worst mistake was not buying the Rafale in 2003-04---. Would have totally sabotaged the indian air force---they would have no where to go---a classic coupe de grace---.
> 
> That was the second failure by the paf in 18 years---the previous one was not buying the mirage 2 k when it came out----.
> 
> All the advisor told the paf buy the m2k---as a second option so that you won't get sanctions on the F16 like before---but no---paf went ahead and paif for the F16---.
> 
> Same thing---if paf had bought those m2k's in the 80's----!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yes somehow we have gifted our French relationship to Indian`s (being the largest operator of Mirages we simply handed over to Indians .We as people criticize politicians and every one day in day out but these lapses can be only cause by 

1. Incompetency
2. Corruption (personal gains) 

Its like we like being US B1t[H all the time

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## The Eagle

TheGreatOne said:


> @C130 Thank you for sharing that video, since all of our previous F-16s were upgraded to block 40 and no airframe structural modification is required for equipping SABR AESA radar to our entire F-16 fleet then why doesn't PAF go for it as it is much cheaper as compared to acquiring a new platform ?
> @Horus @Quwa @The Eagle @Oscar @Irfan Baloch @Windjammer @ACE OF THE AIR @Bilal Khan 777



Yes but our diplomacy and want list never persists of such requirement or in other words as @MastanKhan sir stated though a bit hard but close to truth. PAF should have gone for that not just by the way for asking but by manipulating the situation like "Ok you are not sharing what I want but tell you what I already have it from somewhere else so if you want me to be your ally then we need to sit" and things would have been changed today or could be soon however, the current Radar is yet satisfactory for the time being.



TheGreatOne said:


> On one of your posts you wrote that PAF has money, so I say that we should go for Typhoon. We can induct it in small numbers in the beginning since we would not be in a hurry to complete a squadron. If we bought Typhoon it would allow us to get our hands on Typhoon avionics and EJ-200 for JF-17. If we don't have the money then we should take soft loans from Saudi Arabia or China. As soon as the Rafale deal is signed we should go for Typhoon.
> @The Eagle @Quwa



Surely we are not bank corrupt that we don't have enough money for such necessary purchases though to me, it seems like we are kind of waiting for something that we put in cooker to melt down at our level so then the same will be decorated and served accordingly. We aren't in hurry (I know many would differ of this mind set) but as per current doctrine, we are almost par to good enough but sooner the same would be changed and we will be having advance equipment than before as per requirement but it is not going to be like bulk shopping. We do have the option of EFT and to the some extent I believe that KSA or Arab friends could be helpful in this regards but there is something else cooking down there and as I use to say PAF is full of surprises. Let the deal of Rafale be finalized and we will be seeing a counter punch for that too In'Sha'ALLAH. 

IMO, more than EFT, we need to work seriously upon something like we did previously with the help of our Chinese Friends that resulted JFT, so we can have something as per our requirement, like EFT or Rafale against the money that we may spend over EFT or SUs.

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## nomi007




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## _NOBODY_

The Eagle said:


> IMO, more than EFT, we need to work seriously upon something like we did previously with the help of our Chinese Friends that resulted JFT, so we can have something as per our requirement, like EFT or Rafale against the money that we may spend over EFT or SUs.


So you are saying that we should build a new fighter with Chinese or jointly develop J-31. We need another platform besides J-31 since we don't know how long it would take for J-31 to be developed.

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## IrbiS

TheGreatOne said:


> F-16 with AESA would give us an edge over Su-30MKI. Why are you so obsessed with French equipment, after the Rafale deal French will not sell their avionics and weaponry to us. So I say that we should go for Typhoon. We can induct it in small numbers in the beginning since we would not be in a hurry to complete a squadron. If we bought Typhoon it would allow us to get our hands on Typhoon avionics and EJ-200 for JF-17. If we don't have the money then we should take soft loans from Saudi Arabia or China. As soon as the Rafale deal is signed we should go for Typhoon. Forget the French we lost them.
> 
> @MastanKhan when you replied to my previous post you never said that we should go for Typhoon or not. Besides F-16 a twin engine 4++ generation platform(except J-31) is required to counter Rafale and the only ones that are good enough are Typhoon and F-15SE. US won't sell us F-15SE so Typhoon is the only option left plus Typhoon is even superior to Rafale. I know that Typhoon is extremely expensive, if we have the money for it then it's all good but if we don't then we should take soft loans from China and Saudi Arabia.
> @Horus @The Eagle @Quwa @Windjammer




AESA wud be a superb booster for F-16 that we both agree upon, but paying a billion from own pocket for 'em doesn't sound good. I'm all for SABR but if I got only enough cash to invest on one platform, I will not put my eggs in U.S basket. 

I'm not obsessed with french equipment and personally prefer EF over Rafale for Pakistan AirForce's requirments. But trust me the PAF will get western equipment the moment they can get their hands on and ditch Chinese. They will most likely buy French and may be trying to work out something with French even as I write. Maybe a combination of Chinese AESA with MBDA Meteor could be on the table or whole western package.

All in all, no matter how much we talk about a new platform, PAF ain't buying at least for now. They are gonna match RAFALE/ FLANKER with beefed up JF-17 and that's all. If u saw Air Chief's 23rd march interview, his body-language was clear that PAF's next fighter will be at-least a top notch 5th gen. fighter in the class of F-22 or J-20, or 6th gen. aircraft. 'When' is another question.


----------



## _NOBODY_

IrbiS said:


> AESA wud be a superb booster for F-16 that we both agree upon, but paying a billion from own pocket for 'em doesn't sound good. I'm all for SABR but if I got only enough cash to invest on one platform, I will not put my eggs in U.S basket.
> 
> I'm not obsessed with french equipment and personally prefer EF over Rafale for Pakistan AirForce's requirments. But trust me the PAF will get western equipment the moment they can get their hands on and ditch Chinese. They will most likely buy French and may be trying to work out something with French even as I write. Maybe a combination of Chinese AESA with MBDA Meteor could be on the table or whole western package.
> 
> All in all, no matter how much we talk about a new platform, PAF ain't buying at least for now. They are gonna match RAFALE/ FLANKER with beefed up JF-17 and that's all. If u saw Air Chief's 23rd march interview, his body-language was clear that PAF's next fighter will be at-least a top notch 5th gen. fighter in the class of F-22 or J-20, or 6th gen. aircraft. 'When' is another question.


But ever since the Rafale deal French won't offer us their avionics and weapons however Selex is willing to offer us their equipment, we should go for Selex unless Chinese have something better to offer.


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## Windjammer

The afterburner in the F-16 also acts as a brute force as seen here, even with afterburner engaged the speed remains minimal which is apparent from the smoke blowing out of the winders.

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## MastanKhan

IrbiS said:


> AESA wud be a superb booster for F-16 that we both agree upon, but paying a billion from own pocket for 'em doesn't sound good. I'm all for SABR but if I got only enough cash to invest on one platform, I will not put my eggs in U.S basket.
> 
> I'm not obsessed with french equipment and personally prefer EF over Rafale for Pakistan AirForce's requirments. But trust me the PAF will get western equipment the moment they can get their hands on and ditch Chinese. They will most likely buy French and may be trying to work out something with French even as I write. Maybe a combination of Chinese AESA with MBDA Meteor could be on the table or whole western package.
> 
> All in all, no matter how much we talk about a new platform, PAF ain't buying at least for now. They are gonna match RAFALE/ FLANKER with beefed up JF-17 and that's all. If u saw Air Chief's 23rd march interview, his body-language was clear that PAF's next fighter will be at-least a top notch 5th gen. fighter in the class of F-22 or J-20, or 6th gen. aircraft. 'When' is another question.



Hi,

Really---you are not IMPRESSED with French equipment---wow.

How can pakistan ditch the chinese---that is their life line---and who is going to protect you.

Did you think about what you wrote?

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## _NOBODY_

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Really---you are not IMPRESSED with French equipment---wow.


Where did he wrote that ? If you are talking about the part where he wrote Typhoon is superior to Rafale then he is damn right.


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## MastanKhan

TheGreatOne said:


> Where did he wrote that ? If you are talking about the part where he wrote Typhoon is superior to Rafale then he is damn right.



Please let him answer---it is not directed at you.



volatile said:


> Nice way of putting like that , From a professional point of view 2 untested platforms did we ever inducted 2 untested almost the same time and this argument is valid, my personal opinion great loss to PAF missing out on J10B in 2006 cost was not an issue at that time but we opted for US camp as that time PAF Air chief mentioned some thing like that we have other options and US approves block 52+ .On a personal not Lock Heed Martin did they bribed some of our officials for thus ?




Hi,

Here is how the bribe works---and Benazir ? Zardari are pioneers of it----.

You have an actual contract of 350 million dollars----so you will ask the american company to write the deal at 500 million dollars but will recive 350 million from that. 

So---pakistan govt will fund the front company 500 million dollars---350 be paid to the U SA company----the front compnay will pay whomsoever the 150 million.


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## IrbiS

TheGreatOne said:


> But ever since the Rafale deal French won't offer us their avionics and weapons however Selex is willing to offer us their equipment, we should go for Selex unless Chinese have something better to offer.




French will sell only if you got guts to buy.


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## Dil Pakistan

MastanKhan said:


> Please let him answer---it is not directed at you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Here is how the bribe works---and Benazir ? Zardari are pioneers of it----.
> 
> You have an actual contract of 350 million dollars----so you will ask the american company to write the deal at 500 million dollars but will recive 350 million from that.
> 
> So---pakistan govt will fund the front company 500 million dollars---350 be paid to the U SA company----the front compnay will pay whomsoever the 150 million.



Sir! with due respect I disagree with your calculations. Zardari used to charge only 10% in the dealings. This was his fixed rate. Hence out of $350 million, he would only earn $35 million (and not $150 million).


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## IrbiS

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Really---you are not IMPRESSED with French equipment---wow.
> 
> How can pakistan ditch the chinese---that is their life line---and who is going to protect you.
> 
> Did you think about what you wrote?


Couldn't reply earlier, my laptop temporarily died.


Can't tell if you are really asking or tricking me!

Let me assume u are asking. It's not up to me and doesn't matter what I like but yeah I'm impressed by French equipment. In case of a hypothetical scenario, where PAF is going to select either Rafale or Eurofighter, I would go for Eurofighter.

Both are capable platforms but EF-2000 has been slow with A-G capabilities but not by mistake, that's how the maker wanted it. Take a look at the Brits, up until now they didn't even fully grasp the concept of multi-role let alone that they already had an omni-role platform.

Both aircrafts match specs on the paper, more or less. Top-notch quality, cutting edge avionic, range, payload etc.

Now coming to our needs, both platforms don't offer that much diversity in A-G weapons but either platform got good eyes and ears. JF-17 can carry more than enough kinds of weapons for ground use that there is no need to spend or rather over-spend on expensive weapons like AASM or BRIMSTONE just to kill some taliban or blow Indian tanks. Only impressive weapon we wud get is same for 2 beasts : Taurus, Scalp, Black Shaheen whatever u call it.

Now coming to air-to-air, JASM is equivlant of MICA-IR and soon both will be using Meteor but EF is more streamlined for.......flying and so is for aerial combat.




Coming to the million dollar question, I'm not talking about divorcing China. For that particular matter of JF-17 avionics, if French offer better equipment, it's not that big of deal to have a fling with the mistress while she is ready to give. But ultimately we will return to the wife for other important matters concerning life.

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## MastanKhan

IrbiS said:


> Couldn't reply earlier, my laptop temporarily died.
> 
> 
> Can't tell if you are really asking or tricking me!
> 
> Let me assume u are asking. It's not up to me and doesn't matter what I like but yeah I'm impressed by French equipment. In case of a hypothetical scenario, where PAF is going to select either Rafale or Eurofighter, I would go for Eurofighter.
> 
> Both are capable platforms but EF-2000 has been slow with A-G capabilities but not by mistake, that's how the maker wanted it. Take a look at the Brits, up until now they didn't even fully grasp the concept of multi-role let alone that they already had an omni-role platform.
> 
> Both aircrafts match specs on the paper, more or less. Top-notch quality, cutting edge avionic, range, payload etc.
> 
> Now coming to our needs, both platforms don't offer that much diversity in A-G weapons but either platform got good eyes and ears. JF-17 can carry more than enough kinds of weapons for ground use that there is no need to spend or rather over-spend on expensive weapons like AASM or BRIMSTONE just to kill some taliban or blow Indian tanks. Only impressive weapon we wud get is same for 2 beasts : Taurus, Scalp, Black Shaheen whatever u call it.
> 
> Now coming to air-to-air, JASM is equivlant of MICA-IR and soon both will be using Meteor but EF is more streamlined for.......flying and so is for aerial combat.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coming to the million dollar question, I'm not talking about divorcing China. For that particular matter of JF-17 avionics, if French offer better equipment, it's not that big of deal to have a fling with the mistress while she is ready to give. But ultimately we will return to the wife for other important matters concerning life.




Hi,

To understand the French---one has to try to see thru their mind's eye. They are a super power second to the U S in technology or equal.

The eurofighter is primarily an air superiority platform---the French always go for both versions---because they always have one aircraft doing that job---.



Dil Pakistan said:


> Sir! with due respect I disagree with your calculations. Zardari used to charge only 10% in the dealings. This was his fixed rate. Hence out of $350 million, he would only earn $35 million (and not $150 million).



Hi,

You need to read up the pakistani ambassdor to the U S in the 90's---the lady from Jhang's comments on this deal----.

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## alikazmi007

BBC.com is reporting that U.S Congress has banned the funding for the proposed sale of 8 F-16s to Pakistan. So, Pakistan has to come up with the entire funding, if we want to




buy these airplanes!

http://www.bbc.com/urdu/pakistan/2016/04/160428_pakistan_pay_f16_price_zz


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## Quwa

alikazmi007 said:


> BBC.com is reporting that U.S Congress has banned the funding for the proposed sale of 8 F-16s to Pakistan. So, Pakistan has to come up with the entire funding, if we want to
> 
> 
> 
> buy these airplanes!
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/urdu/pakistan/2016/04/160428_pakistan_pay_f16_price_zz


Good. Let's not buy the F-16s and put our 50% towards the JF-17.

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## AsifIjaz

Good. if we must, then we should only buy what we can i.e. 2 or 3 Block 52 Ds... induct them for training and special mission in existing squadrons and call it a day.
no further funds should be spent on F16s. No matter what we do or whether this deal goes through or not, we will be in a tough spot sooner or later. Better to focus, invest and have an upgraded Jf17 block 3.

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## princefaisal

Forget F-16s, 700 million $ can be diverted to order 15 more AH-1Z helicopters


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## Quwa

princefaisal said:


> Forget F-16s, 700 million $ can be diverted to order 15 more AH-1Z helicopters


The White House set aside up to $430 million in FMF funding. 

Here are a few options (pick one):


9 or 10 'free' AH-1Z Viper
1 or 2 'free' KC-46 Pegasus MRTT
9 or 10 'free' UH-1Y Venom
6 or 7 'free' CH-47F Chinook
20 or 21 'free' Bell-412EP
2 or 3 'free' C-130J Hercules
7 or 8 'free' UH-60M Black Hawk

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## Windjammer

Now this is what's called muscle climb, commonly known as high Alpha pass.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=947933108657835

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## Umair Nawaz

alikazmi007 said:


> BBC.com is reporting that U.S Congress has banned the funding for the proposed sale of 8 F-16s to Pakistan. So, Pakistan has to come up with the entire funding, if we want to
> 
> 
> 
> buy these airplanes!
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/urdu/pakistan/2016/04/160428_pakistan_pay_f16_price_zz


Air Marshall Sohail Aman has been trolled big time by Americans. It was he who had gone to america to lobby them for these fighters and even said for the first time that they r helping us a lot in precision bombing missions etc etc last year. it was late the American government also picked this line and justified it.

i wonder what he would be thinking about this

Welcome to the earth my high flying Airforce.

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## CHACHA"G"

*Remember these two faces , These Two Very Old Men are behind the Epic failure of Pakistan Diplomacy About Those 8 F16s,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Even Army Chief Complained about these old guys and Foreign Office to PM, If they did there job We wont have this outcome , So A big Shame ..........
But My Question is , But My Question is Did they did it by purpose? And did NS's Govt wants misunderstandings (cold war) in between USA and PAK Armed Forces ? 
What do you all Think, 
Thank you all. 
@Umair Nawaz @Windjammer @Quwa @MastanKhan *

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## cloud4000

CHACHA"G" said:


> *Remember these two faces , These Two Very Old Men are behind the Epic failure of Pakistan Diplomacy About Those 8 F16s,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> Even Army Chief Complained about these old guys and Foreign Office to PM, If they did there job We wont have this outcome , So A big Shame ..........
> But My Question is , But My Question is Did they did it by purpose? And did NS's Govt wants misunderstandings (cold war) in between USA and PAK Armed Forces ?
> What do you all Think,
> Thank you all.
> @Umair Nawaz @Windjammer @Quwa @MastanKhan *



Can the failure of Pakistan's diplomacy placed only at the feet of two men? What about COAS Sharif's role in all this? He has visited the US twice, meeting secretaries of defense and state, Pentagon officials, military leaders, and Congressional leaders. There was all this talk of bonhomie between the General and US.

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## MastanKhan

CHACHA"G" said:


> *Remember these two faces , These Two Very Old Men are behind the Epic failure of Pakistan Diplomacy About Those 8 F16s,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> Even Army Chief Complained about these old guys and Foreign Office to PM, If they did there job We wont have this outcome , So A big Shame ..........
> But My Question is , But My Question is Did they did it by purpose? And did NS's Govt wants misunderstandings (cold war) in between USA and PAK Armed Forces ?
> What do you all Think,
> Thank you all.
> @Umair Nawaz @Windjammer @Quwa @MastanKhan *




Hi,

With these two guys in office---you don't need enemies. Now they don't know when to shut up.

It is their egos that don't make them see the changes occuring in the U S against pakistan.

Just because the U S generals meet the pak generals with smiles and a firm handshake---it does not mean that the system in the U S is also responding in kind.

The U S general is meeting in a friendly manner because he needs all the help he can to " save his men / women " in afghanistan---the politician who is sitting 10000 miles away cares less about it and is only looking for re-election to save his seat.

So---even in the U S---the interests of the U S military and the politicians do not coincide all the time.

The U S politicians will always win and the american generals will take the thrashing by their politicians with a smile without breaking their stride.

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## CHACHA"G"

@cloud4000 your post


cloud4000 said:


> Can the failure of Pakistan's diplomacy placed only at the feet of two men? What about COAS Sharif's role in all this? He has visited the US twice, meeting secretaries of defense and state, Pentagon officials, military leaders, and Congressional leaders. There was all this talk of bonhomie between the General and US.



Answer to that , This post by MastanKhan.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> With these two guys in office---you don't need enemies. Now they don't know when to shut up.
> 
> It is their egos that don't make them see the changes occuring in the U S against pakistan.
> 
> Just because the U S generals meet the pak generals with smiles and a firm handshake---it does not mean that the system in the U S is also responding in kind.
> 
> The U S general is meeting in a friendly manner because he needs all the help he can to " save his men / women " in afghanistan---the politician who is sitting 10000 miles away cares less about it and is only looking for re-election to save his seat.
> 
> So---even in the U S---the interests of the U S military and the politicians do not coincide all the time.
> 
> The U S politicians will always win and the american generals will take the thrashing by their politicians with a smile without breaking their stride.



I hope it will help you .


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## nomi007

*Pakistan Air Force F-16 ~The Sound of Freedom*

*



*

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## ZEYA

i think pakistan should wait for HILLARY CLINTON as a president ,table can turn vis a vis


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## Viper0011.

ZEYA said:


> i think pakistan should wait for HILLARY CLINTON as a president ,table can turn vis a vis



You are SADLY mistaken on this. Hillary and Bill, in their last trip to India for Bill's charity, received $ 80 MILLION worth of donations (just one example). Who do you think they'll support? India or Pakistan? Second, the Congress is Repulican controlled. And third, like MK has written many times, you guys need to start reading between the lines and go get other stuff if you've not learned from the 90's. The sentiment towards Pakistan, within the US establishment on each side, isn't that positive. 

@MastanKhan : your favorite topic again. I thought I'd add you as I am sure you'd have something to say here, and for the right reasons. Edumacate the member above please 



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> With these two guys in office---you don't need enemies. Now they don't know when to shut up.
> 
> It is their egos that don't make them see the changes occuring in the U S against pakistan.
> 
> Just because the U S generals meet the pak generals with smiles and a firm handshake---it does not mean that the system in the U S is also responding in kind.
> 
> The U S general is meeting in a friendly manner because he needs all the help he can to " save his men / women " in afghanistan---the politician who is sitting 10000 miles away cares less about it and is only looking for re-election to save his seat.
> 
> So---even in the U S---the interests of the U S military and the politicians do not coincide all the time.
> 
> The U S politicians will always win and the american generals will take the thrashing by their politicians with a smile without breaking their stride.



I just added you to this post and then saw this one. So you'd be added to my post twice. A couple of things from the above:

1) It doesn't matter if these two men are representing Pakistan or not. This situation has NO control from the Pakistani side. The control has always been in the US hands and will. Sorry!! Mushy, Zia and everyone else, got the "time being" relationship. But the US controls her interests and that's it, period. Doesn't matter which two, four or ten men are or are not involved from the Pakistani side.

2) Soldier to soldier, general to general relationships are always professional and respectful. As both in Khakhi are trying to protect their country and require professionalism towards each other. The Civilians make the policies so the American generals don't get into it. They'll shake hands courteously today and if tomorrow, the Commander In-Chief said to attack the same country they shook hands with yesterday, they'll do it. Its called code of conduct and duty to the country.

3) In Pakistan, the civilians don't get to make policies so that ALWAYS goes against Pakistan. But Pakistani military doesn't want to lose that control so here is the result. Remember, I've ALWAYS said, you want a good working relationship with the Americans or with the British......NEVER let the Khaki's go and represent the country. ONLY suits and salesman and you'll get the results. End of the story!! The more military fatigues go in front of American leaders, the more annoyed they'd get and the results are coming in front of you guys, if you see the sentiment from the US towards Pakistan.

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## MastanKhan

Viper0011. said:


> You are SADLY mistaken on this. Hillary and Bill, in their last trip to India for Bill's charity, received $ 80 MILLION worth of donations (just one example). Who do you think they'll support? India or Pakistan? Second, the Congress is Repulican controlled. And third, like MK has written many times, you guys need to start reading between the lines and go get other stuff if you've not learned from the 90's. The sentiment towards Pakistan, within the US establishment on each side, isn't that positive.
> 
> @MastanKhan : your favorite topic again. I thought I'd add you as I am sure you'd have something to say here, and for the right reasons. Edumacate the member above please
> 
> 
> 
> I just added you to this post and then saw this one. So you'd be added to my post twice. A couple of things from the above:
> 
> 1) It doesn't matter if these two men are representing Pakistan or not. This situation has NO control from the Pakistani side. The control has always been in the US hands and will. Sorry!! Mushy, Zia and everyone else, got the "time being" relationship. But the US controls her interests and that's it, period. Doesn't matter which two, four or ten men are or are not involved from the Pakistani side.
> 
> 2) Soldier to soldier, general to general relationships are always professional and respectful. As both in Khakhi are trying to protect their country and require professionalism towards each other. The Civilians make the policies so the American generals don't get into it. They'll shake hands courteously today and if tomorrow, the Commander In-Chief said to attack the same country they shook hands with yesterday, they'll do it. Its called code of conduct and duty to the country.
> 
> 3) In Pakistan, the civilians don't get to make policies so that ALWAYS goes against Pakistan. But Pakistani military doesn't want to lose that control so here is the result. Remember, I've ALWAYS said, you want a good working relationship with the Americans or with the British......NEVER let the Khaki's go and represent the country. ONLY suits and salesman and you'll get the results. End of the story!! The more military fatigues go in front of American leaders, the more annoyed they'd get and the results are coming in front of you guys, if you see the sentiment from the US towards Pakistan.



Hi,

I refer you to the good old american saying " we will give you enough rope to hang yourself ".

Pakistan has proved this american saying to be true one more time.

The uniforms don't listen when it comes to america---I have tried many a times and ever time they have faltered and I have been proven right---their paths are always predictable----their failures always anticipated.

There is a problem with learning and understanding---and for that----they need to be smacked on the media channels---right up front and right in the face---.

They think that their sacrifices take care of their problems---the mantra that " we are not afraid to die " should absolve them of all their sins---and if they don't learn from their mistakes----big deal.

Just from today's news---they have learnt nothing from this F16 fiasco---.



Viper0011. said:


> @MastanKhan : your favorite topic again. I thought I'd add you as I am sure you'd have something to say here, and for the right reasons. Edumacate the member above please
> 
> 
> 
> I just added you to this post and then saw this one. So you'd be added to my post twice. A couple of things from the above:
> 
> 
> 2) Soldier to soldier, general to general relationships are always professional and respectful. As both in Khakhi are trying to protect their country and require professionalism towards each other. The Civilians make the policies so the American generals don't get into it. They'll shake hands courteously today and if tomorrow, the Commander In-Chief said to attack the same country they shook hands with yesterday, they'll do it. Its called code of conduct and duty to the country.
> 
> .



Hi,

Pakistan's military shuld have known that---Gen Kiyani was crying about it---he just had a meeting with his american counter part in Spain a day earlier---and the counter part was smashing pakistan's military the next day---and Gen Kiyani could not comprehend that.

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## Viper0011.

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I refer you to the good old american saying " we will give you enough rope to hang yourself ".
> 
> Pakistan has proved this american saying to be true one more time.
> 
> The uniforms don't listen when it comes to america---I have tried many a times and ever time they have faltered and I have been proven right---their paths are always predictable----their failures always anticipated.
> 
> There is a problem with learning and understanding---and for that----they need to be smacked on the media channels---right up front and right in the face---.
> 
> They think that their sacrifices take care of their problems---the mantra that " we are not afraid to die " should absolve them of all their sins---and if they don't learn from their mistakes----big deal.
> 
> Just from today's news---they have learnt nothing from this F16 fiasco---.
> 
> Pakistan's military shuld have known that---Gen Kiyani was crying about it---he just had a meeting with his american counter part in Spain a day earlier---and the counter part was smashing pakistan's military the next day---and Gen Kiyani could not comprehend that.



The problem is that this is the situation with everyone in the West. Pakistani public thinks that the Americans, or the Swedes or the Germans or the Britts or the French deal with their military better. To be honest, they deal with professionalism as usually they need some general to do something for them. Out of that, they hate dealing with a general representing a nation. It DOESN'T work like that.

I don't want to sound hating, but on TV, I've seen it way too many times, you have a guy dressed up in military fatigues in the middle of a dozen US law makers on some issue. The sad part, the general in Military Uniform thinks the other side loves him. While the other side (democratically elected leaders, whether American, Brits or anyone else) are BARELY standing that guy for their needs. How long does that take to synch in? Its been 70 years?


The Civilian leaders in any Western or democratic Eastern country look at their generals with respect, but knowing that they are a level beneath the civilians. This is just the mentality. But I don't understand why does the Generals in Uniform don't get it???? It makes the entire country look weird. Indians beat everyone on this, their previous generation of PM's, didn't really speak English that well. But, they were civilians, in suits or in their whatever dress (remember Gandhi's pics). But, look, they've buttered the entire world to listen to whatever they have to say and the world does it for them. THAT is the power of the salesmanship, the suits, the non-military clothes and no prefix of "General" before your name. Unless you are meeting with another military general. How do I teach the Pakistani public the secret to success 

I've spent years on here and there are times when I feel like I haven't accomplished anything. My time here doesn't pay me, doesn't benefit me, but I just want people on here to learn a thing or to, so they can spread the success "sauce recipe" if you will. 

No generals or dictators on tv (specially in international events representing Pakistan with Western civilian leaders. ONLY Suits, Suits, and Suits!! And you can build a good working relationship with the US and others.

This RIGHT HERE is what I was referring to, I found this and edited my post to add this. Now how does Pakistan deal with a mini-NATO next door (India's size, capacity, etc, after the following takes place):

http://www.defencenews.in/article/U...-with-NATO-allies-and-boost-defence-ties-5089

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## Thorough Pro

nomi007 said:


> *Pakistan Air Force F-16 ~The Sound of Sanctions*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *


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## MastanKhan

Viper0011. said:


> The problem is that this is the situation with everyone in the West. Pakistani public thinks that the Americans, or the Swedes or the Germans or the Britts or the French deal with their military better. To be honest, they deal with professionalism as usually they need some general to do something for them. Out of that, they hate dealing with a general representing a nation. It DOESN'T work like that.
> 
> I don't want to sound hating, but on TV, I've seen it way too many times, you have a guy dressed up in military fatigues in the middle of a dozen US law makers on some issue. The sad part, the general in Military Uniform thinks the other side loves him. While the other side (democratically elected leaders, whether American, Brits or anyone else) are BARELY standing that guy for their needs. How long does that take to synch in? Its been 7 years?
> 
> 
> The Civilian leaders in any Western or democratic Eastern country look at their generals with respect, but knowing that they are a level beneath the civilians. This is just the mentality. But I don't understand why does the Generals in Uniform don't get it???? It makes the entire country look weird. Indians beat everyone on this, their previous generation of PM's, didn't really speak English that well. But, they were civilians, in suits or in their whatever dress (remember Gandhi's pics). But, look, they've buttered the entire world to listen to whatever they have to say and the world does it for them. THAT is the power of the salesmanship, the suits, the non-military clothes and no prefix of "General" before your name. Unless you are meeting with another military general. How do I teach the Pakistani public the secret to success
> 
> I've spent years on here and there are time I feel like I haven't accomplished anything. My time here doesn't pay me, doesn't benefit me, but I just want people on here to learn a thing or to, so they can spread the success "sauce recipe" if you will. No generals or dictators. ONLY Suits, Suits, and Suits!! And you can build a good working relationship with the US and others.
> 
> This RIGHT HERE is what I was referring to, I found this and edited my post to add this. Now how does Pakistan deal with a mini-NATO next door (India's size, capacity, etc, after the following takes place):
> 
> http://www.defencenews.in/article/U...-with-NATO-allies-and-boost-defence-ties-5089



Hi,

Well---you are not alone----. It is a part of their genetic makeup. The problem with the pak military is that it does not understand that it can have a dedicated ' suit ' as its spokesperson---.

Pak generals also think that they have protected the american civilians and the american civiliabs will appreciate their sacrifices---.

They don't understand that that news has not been allowed to trickle down---and never will be allowed to.

And on top of that---the american congress or senate---they are only interested in their next election win---period---. The U S soldiers are a cannon fodder---that is what they signed up for.


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## Viper0011.

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Well---you are not alone----. It is a part of their genetic makeup. The problem with the pak military is that it does not understand that it can have a dedicated ' suit ' as its spokesperson---.
> 
> Pak generals also think that they have protected the american civilians and the american civiliabs will appreciate their sacrifices---.
> 
> They don't understand that that news has not been allowed to trickle down---and never will be allowed to.
> 
> And on top of that---the american congress or senate---they are only interested in their next election win---period---.
> 
> *The U S soldiers are a cannon fodder---that is what they signed up for*.



I disagree with the last line there that the US soldiers are cannon fodders. There are missions out there that they've fought that other military's won't even want to get in all across the globe to mainland China. But I'd rest at that. The US is the largest military power so it protects her soldiers very well from Sea, Air and Land. But that doesn't mean the soldiers are cannon fodders. At the end of the day, Pakistan's entire Army is trained on the US tactics, from war fighting to special operations!! There are hundreds of thousands of examples of patriot soldiers who've volunteered their lives on special missions. Its very easy to watch movies and make claims. Its VERY hard to have operational insight by looking from the outside. There are MILLIONS of American families where every kind wants to become a soldier, a Marine, or an Air-Man or a SEAL because of family heritage. You once told me you lived in Texas? That, right there is one of the hard core military State and patriotism can be found every ten feet away, proudly serving the US military.

So the entire world (the countries that align with the US), are trained by the US military from a doctrine's and tactics standpoint. So, if there wasn't any success behind it, why would everyone allow that and spend millions in training? 

For decades, Pakistani air-force (albeit with older equipment) was always considered "better trained" because of the USAF training. I can't imagine the numbers they brought down from the Indian Air-force would've been possible if they were flying the Chinese Mig-19's with the Chinese tactics!! So the US military is JUST better prepared in all aspects. That's it. You can't blame our success based on our training, towards something else and insult the US soldiers as cannon fodders to be frank.

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## MastanKhan

Viper0011. said:


> I disagree with the last line there that the US soldiers are cannon fodders. There are missions out there that they've fought that other military's won't even want to get in all across the globe to mainland China. But I'd rest at that. The US is the largest military power so it protects her soldiers very well from Sea, Air and Land. But that doesn't mean the soldiers are cannon fodders. At the end of the day, Pakistan's entire Army is trained on the US tactics, from war fighting to special operations!! There are hundreds of thousands of examples of patriot soldiers who've volunteered their lives on special missions. Its very easy to watch movies and make claims. Its VERY hard to have operational insight by looking from the outside. There are MILLIONS of American families where every kind wants to become a soldier, a Marine, or an Air-Man or a SEAL because of family heritage. You once told me you lived in Texas? That, right there is one of the hard core military State and patriotism can be found every ten feet away, proudly serving the US military.
> 
> So the entire world (the countries that align with the US), are trained by the US military from a doctrine's and tactics standpoint. So, if there wasn't any success behind it, why would everyone allow that and spend millions in training?
> 
> For decades, Pakistani air-force (albeit with older equipment) was always considered "better trained" because of the USAF training. I can't imagine the numbers they brought down from the Indian Air-force would've been possible if they were flying the Chinese Mig-19's with the Chinese tactics!! So the US military is JUST better prepared in all aspects. That's it. You can't blame our success based on our training, towards something else and insult the US soldiers as cannon fodders to be frank.




Hi,

That is not an insult---that is the truth---. A congressman or senator will save his behind first then think of the soldiers---.. Ra Ra and flag waving is fine---but winning the next election comes first.


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## iPhone

Viper0011. said:


> The problem is that this is the situation with everyone in the West. Pakistani public thinks that the Americans, or the Swedes or the Germans or the Britts or the French deal with their military better. To be honest, they deal with professionalism as usually they need some general to do something for them. Out of that, they hate dealing with a general representing a nation. It DOESN'T work like that.
> 
> I don't want to sound hating, but on TV, I've seen it way too many times, you have a guy dressed up in military fatigues in the middle of a dozen US law makers on some issue. The sad part, the general in Military Uniform thinks the other side loves him. While the other side (democratically elected leaders, whether American, Brits or anyone else) are BARELY standing that guy for their needs. How long does that take to synch in? Its been 70 years?
> 
> 
> The Civilian leaders in any Western or democratic Eastern country look at their generals with respect, but knowing that they are a level beneath the civilians. This is just the mentality. But I don't understand why does the Generals in Uniform don't get it???? It makes the entire country look weird. Indians beat everyone on this, their previous generation of PM's, didn't really speak English that well. But, they were civilians, in suits or in their whatever dress (remember Gandhi's pics). But, look, they've buttered the entire world to listen to whatever they have to say and the world does it for them. THAT is the power of the salesmanship, the suits, the non-military clothes and no prefix of "General" before your name. Unless you are meeting with another military general. How do I teach the Pakistani public the secret to success
> 
> I've spent years on here and there are times when I feel like I haven't accomplished anything. *My time here doesn't pay me, doesn't benefit me, but I just want people on here to learn a thing or to, so they can spread the success "sauce recipe" if you will.
> 
> No generals or dictators on tv (specially in international events representing Pakistan with Western civilian leaders. ONLY Suits, Suits, and Suits!! And you can build a good working relationship with the US and others.*
> 
> This RIGHT HERE is what I was referring to, I found this and edited my post to add this. Now how does Pakistan deal with a mini-NATO next door (India's size, capacity, etc, after the following takes place):
> 
> http://www.defencenews.in/article/U...-with-NATO-allies-and-boost-defence-ties-5089


Yeah, but you're preaching to the choir here, sir. For the most part everyone here would be in agreement that we need to give the reigns of the government control to the civilians so, *they *can carry the Pakistani message across the world.

We know that in the west uniform personnel are a level beneath the civilian in charge. But how to make the boots in Pakistan understand that? That stop interfering in the politics of the country. Who can carry the message to the higher ups of the military?

But I also wanna mention that to a some extent the politicians in Pakistan are to blame also for their looking to the military for all their political woes. When they do that the military general becomes more arrogant and exercise more power over the civilians.

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## volatile

I think discussion is heading for Pak Army as a separate nation or group of people different from remaining Pakistan .Problem with Pakistan is too much politics inside every organization weather you guys admit or not.Regarding Fatimi and Sartaj the Ex Millitary men in the same or similar positions have there share of blunders as well .So what does it teach us .Are we employing right people for the job ?,weather you like it or not Hussain Haqani the traitor was the same guy who was able to lobbied for F16 as well as FMF /Kerry Luger Bill .So what it teach us ,you need right people to deal specialist jobs ,India simply hired him this time to stop that deal .Similarly there are couple of guys who are Ex Military men they are currently in serious positions but their roles are dubious .e.g What about newly joined NSA for Pak Was he able to deliver but wait who will judge his performance.A commando in uniform a Mullah in Uniform a liberal in Uniform we have done it all we have suffered all ,(East Pak ,CENTO,CETO ,KARGIL.AFGHAN WAR) you name it and we have it but wait !!!!!! . These are facts our hate towards people shouldn't be based on Millitary /Non Military but instead Performance. I forget Kayani Sb as well whose team at time even came on TV to bash his policy

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## Beethoven

Just saw on Samaa tv that Pakistan plans to upgrade its F-16's in Turkey.The total cost of this upgrade is put at 75 million dollars.What sort of upgrades are we talking about???? And are these -16's the ones that we got from Jordan?????


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## Dazzler

Beethoven said:


> Just saw on Samaa tv that Pakistan plans to upgrade its F-16's in Turkey.The total cost of this upgrade is put at 75 million dollars.What sort of upgrades are we talking about???? And are these -16's the ones that we got from Jordan?????



MLU tap 3 for ex Jordanian ones.

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## aliyusuf

Doubt that MLU Tape-M3 costs only around @ USD 6 million per aircraft i.e. 13 ADFs for a total of USD 75 million.

In my speculative opinion it could be an upgrade of the Man-Machine-Interface (MMI). Which might mean improved mission computer, software upgrade and better MFDs. Bringing them at par to the rest of the Viper fleet in that particular category.

Just my humble opinion.

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## Windjammer

The notification under the canopy tells us that it's an F-16A....yet the PAF pilot is supporting JHMCS.
Some guys were questioning without the -9X, what's the benefit of the system. 
@Oscar . @MastanKhan @Horus

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> The notification under the canopy tells us that it's an F-16A....yet the PAF pilot is supporting JHMCS.
> Some guys were questioning without the -9X, what's the benefit of the system.
> @Oscar . @MastanKhan @Horus



Even without the 9X, the JHCMS greatly enhances the usage of the 9M-8 and is also able to cue AIM-120s.

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## Signalian

Windjammer said:


> The notification under the canopy tells us that it's an F-16A....yet the PAF pilot is supporting JHMCS.
> Some guys were questioning without the -9X, what's the benefit of the system.



A few questions.

1. The F-16 ADF of PAF carries 6 AAM or it can carry 8 AAM?

2. The original F-16 ADF had 501-series-pylons supporting AIM-7 sparrow however the launcher for AIM-120 is LAU-129. Are LAU-129 already integrated on PAF ADF F-16's? or they will be integrated on the new upgrade in Turkey?

3. F-16 ADF carries following jamming and protection pods.
ALQ-131 and ALQ-119.

Which jamming pod do the PAF F-16 ADF carry? and which version?
Are both carried at same time or it only one ?
Are they carried on Centre line only?


Thanks


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## Manidabest

get over f16s develop indigenous fighter or acquiredifferent aircraft from somewhere else ....


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## BattlespaceX



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## Stealth

BattlespaceX said:


>


@Horus @Windjammer @Abu Zolfiqar @Irfan Baloch @graphican @Abdul Rafay Afzal @GURU DUTT @nair


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## Beethoven

Just saw a statement from the Minister for defence production Rana Tanveer on ARY News that Pakistan is still in talks with Washington over the sale of F-16 aircraft...it seems that our obsession with the -16 is not yet over nonetheless now that the original deal for 8 F-16's has expired...it makes me wonder Pakistan might be looking at a number which would be much larger than 8 this time around...your thoughts?????? @Horus @Windjammer


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## Thorough Pro

What makes you think that the number would be even larger? US was not ready to subsidise 8 and we didn't have the funds to pay for the same, then how does a larger number popped up in your mind? 



Beethoven said:


> Just saw a statement from the Minister for defence production Rana Tanveer on ARY News that Pakistan is still in talks with Washington over the sale of F-16 aircraft...it seems that our obsession with the -16 is not yet over nonetheless now that the original deal for 8 F-16's has expired...it makes me wonder Pakistan might be looking at a number which would be much larger than 8 this time around...your thoughts?????? @Horus @Windjammer


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## Beethoven

@Thorough Pro you hit the nail on the head....totally agree with you but the thing thats got me confused is why are we negotiating with the US for -16's in the first place if we dont have funds to procure them and secondly if we wanted 8 F-16's all we had to do was to sign the LoA and negotiate the terms of payment later...it would've given us some breathing space but we let that opportunity pass...therefore the idea popped into my mind that if we are going to buy these jets with our own funds then the number would be atleast 18 but then again i can be wrong....


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## Signalian

Beethoven said:


> Just saw a statement from the Minister for defence production Rana Tanveer on ARY News that Pakistan is still in talks with Washington over the sale of F-16 aircraft...it seems that our obsession with the -16 is not yet over nonetheless now that the original deal for 8 F-16's has expired...it makes me wonder Pakistan might be looking at a number which would be much larger than 8 this time around...your thoughts?????? @Horus @Windjammer



Original number is 18 thats to be acquired.

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## Windjammer

The remarkable agility and adaptability of the F-16 is apparent in the image. This particular example is a thirty year old frame, after recent upgrades, it can tackle any other aircraft in the region. This dual seater with afterburner engaged, blasts off from Sargodha's runway.

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## Windjammer

Guys, check out the helmet supported by the PAF F-16 rider, surely those wires are not for the headset.... any thoughts.


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## Zulfiqar

Did not want to create another thread. It seems that the US still keeps a presence at Jacobabad. *


F-16 Maintenance Oversight Analyst


Job Description
*
Job Number: 01214858

*Key Role
*
Provide oversight of F-16 aircraft maintenance operations at a remote Pakistan location for an extended period. Observe foreign nationals conducting maintenance and documenting deviations from approved practices on F-16 aircraft and munitions, especially classified systems. Work as an integral part of a USAF technical security team providing oversight. Provide expert advice on USAF policy as it relates to F-16 maintenance practices and munitions practices, movement, and handling of classified items.

Job Requirements

*Basic Qualifications
*

5+ years of experience with fighter aircraft maintenance practices

Experience with providing oversight on security-related projects or policies

Secret clearance

HS diploma or GED required
*Additional Qualifications
*

Experience with active duty military personnel

Experience with F-16 unit deployments

Experience with F-16 aircraft maintenance

BA or BS degree in a related field preferred; MA or MS degree a plus
*Clearance
*
Applicants selected will be subject to a security investigation and may need to meet eligibility requirements for access to classified information; Secret clearance is required.

Integrating the full range of consulting capabilities, Booz Allen is the one firm that helps clients solve their toughest problems, working by their side to help them achieve their missions. Booz Allen is committed to delivering results that endure.

We are proud of our diverse environment, EOE, M/F/Disability/Vet.

Job Corporate & Business Operations

Primary Location Pakistan-Sind-Jacobabad

https://www.linkedin.com/jobs2/view...86305,VSRPtargetId:170364202,VSRPcmpt:primary


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## Devil Soul

*Doors open for negotiation with US on F-16 deal: Foreign Office*
MATEEN HAIDER — PUBLISHED ABOUT AN HOUR AGO
ISLAMABAD: Negotiations regarding the funding of F-16 jets for Pakistan may still be possible with the United States (US), Foreign Office Spokesman Nafees Zakaria said on Thursday.

"US Senator John McCain will be visiting Pakistan soon to meet top leadership," Zakaria said.

The F-16 deal was earlier put on hold after Washington asked Islamabad to foot the bill for the jets. Under an initial financing arrangement, the US was to pay about $430 million for the eight jets worth $699 million from Foreign Military Financing (FMF) funds, while the remaining cost was to be borne by Pakistan itself.

Islamabad rejected the idea of fully paying for the aircraft and refused to make any pledge unless the restriction on financing through FMF was lifted.

The Pakistani government was required to provide the Letter of Acceptance for purchase of the jets by May 24, but a diplomatic source revealed that the document was not issued, leading to expiry of the offer.

*'Pakistan to join MTCR at appropriate time'*
The FO spokesman said Pakistan would choose to become a part of the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) at an ‘appropriate’ time.

Pakistan has a fairly advanced missile programme and has developed a number of short- and medium-range ballistic missiles and UAVs, but it has never sought membership of the MTCR, which theoretically could have facilitated its access to high-end missile technologies.

India, however, became the 35th member of the MTCR this week after a consensus emerged in the regime on admitting it into its fold.

*'Asked for more evidence on Mumbai attacks'*
Zakaria said that Pakistan has asked Indian authorities for more evidence regarding the Mumbai attacks so that Pakistan can pursue the case.

"Foreign Secretary Aizaz Chaudhry has written a letter to concerned authorities across the border and has demanded further details regarding the evidence linking Pakistan to the attacks," he said.

*Foreign policy to be sorted out during envoys conference*
Pakistan envoys have been called together for a meeting next month to discuss the rapidly changing scenario of international politics, the FO spokesman said.

The conference will also be used to devise a fitter strategy to deal with the future developments.

The development comes amidst criticism of the government's foreign policy by members of the opposition who claim that Pakistan is becoming isolated and needs to maintain good relations with neighbouring countries.


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## Jhon Smith

*Men r warrior and born to fight with animals in Forest, In fight men do use tools.
Its not easy to fall in love with machines. But who r not in love with his tools? Love of machines and tools also called passion. F-16 is the ultimate love of Pak air force fighter pilots. They are in love with F-16 one should believe it or not. 

However its time to figure out Y Pak air force pilots r victim of F-16 love. This love story has following reasons.
F-16 r best fighter jet ever planet Earth has on it...

F-16 Jets r classic, attractive, fast , sexy ,Honest, good looking , honorable , principled , decent ,ethical , vintage, modern, contemporary, state of the art, hot , racy, sensual , most mature, cuddly , alluring, simple , smooth , elegant and dazzling. 
Wish Pak air force has 10 squadron of such a sexy, hot, charming attractive F-16 jets. 
Its love of any world air force, Lucky Indian will have such precious stuff in there back yard. 




Falling in Love with Things*

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## umair86pk

Windjammer said:


> Guys, check out the helmet supported by the PAF F-16 rider, surely those wires are not for the headset.... any thoughts.



Its for JHMCS


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## SQ8

Zulfiqar said:


> Provide oversight of F-16 aircraft maintenance operations at a remote Pakistan location for an extended period. Observe foreign nationals conducting maintenance and documenting deviations from approved practices on F-16 aircraft and munitions, especially classified systems.


They want to make sure that the pretty high end systems we have in the Block-52's are not looked at by the Chinese.


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## ziaulislam

Viper0011. said:


> You are SADLY mistaken on this. Hillary and Bill, in their last trip to India for Bill's charity, received $ 80 MILLION worth of donations (just one example). Who do you think they'll support? India or Pakistan? Second, the Congress is Repulican controlled. And third, like MK has written many times, you guys need to start reading between the lines and go get other stuff if you've not learned from the 90's. The sentiment towards Pakistan, within the US establishment on each side, isn't that positive.
> 
> @MastanKhan : your favorite topic again. I thought I'd add you as I am sure you'd have something to say here, and for the right reasons. Edumacate the member above please
> 
> 
> 
> I just added you to this post and then saw this one. So you'd be added to my post twice. A couple of things from the above:
> 
> 1) It doesn't matter if these two men are representing Pakistan or not. This situation has NO control from the Pakistani side. The control has always been in the US hands and will. Sorry!! Mushy, Zia and everyone else, got the "time being" relationship. But the US controls her interests and that's it, period. Doesn't matter which two, four or ten men are or are not involved from the Pakistani side.
> 
> 2) Soldier to soldier, general to general relationships are always professional and respectful. As both in Khakhi are trying to protect their country and require professionalism towards each other. The Civilians make the policies so the American generals don't get into it. They'll shake hands courteously today and if tomorrow, the Commander In-Chief said to attack the same country they shook hands with yesterday, they'll do it. Its called code of conduct and duty to the country.
> 
> 3) In Pakistan, the civilians don't get to make policies so that ALWAYS goes against Pakistan. But Pakistani military doesn't want to lose that control so here is the result. Remember, I've ALWAYS said, you want a good working relationship with the Americans or with the British......NEVER let the Khaki's go and represent the country. ONLY suits and salesman and you'll get the results. End of the story!! The more military fatigues go in front of American leaders, the more annoyed they'd get and the results are coming in front of you guys, if you see the sentiment from the US towards Pakistan.


we should stops selling Pakistan has firend against terror and instead sell pakistan as emerging 200 million people country

we should stop getting 600-700 million aid, instead ask for trade con cessations. honestly a billion dollar is not even 5% of your tax revenue and if you need foreign exchange better ask for trade concessation or just buy bonds, our tax to gdp debt is not that horrible


*but of course problem is political and military elite doesn't want that, they need to understand its no longer the cold war, there are no friends and enemies, US will not support pakistan over india under any circumstance* and there is no reason for it to do so, infact no other country in world who has no animty with india will support pakistan over india, they would either be neutral or pro indian as its all about econmy
*
our foreign policy hasnot changed since era of CENTO and 1980s*

lastly 10-20 f-16s is not going to change the equation at all, if they are so eager buy either another plateform in batches or simply go for some second hand f-16s, you are not going to get the aim 120D anyway

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## hassan1



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## princefaisal

Devil Soul said:


> *Doors open for negotiation with US on F-16 deal: Foreign Office*
> MATEEN HAIDER — PUBLISHED ABOUT AN HOUR AGO
> ISLAMABAD: Negotiations regarding the funding of F-16 jets for Pakistan may still be possible with the United States (US), Foreign Office Spokesman Nafees Zakaria said on Thursday.
> 
> "US Senator John McCain will be visiting Pakistan soon to meet top leadership," Zakaria said.
> 
> The F-16 deal was earlier put on hold after Washington asked Islamabad to foot the bill for the jets. Under an initial financing arrangement, the US was to pay about $430 million for the eight jets worth $699 million from Foreign Military Financing (FMF) funds, while the remaining cost was to be borne by Pakistan itself.
> 
> Islamabad rejected the idea of fully paying for the aircraft and refused to make any pledge unless the restriction on financing through FMF was lifted.
> 
> The Pakistani government was required to provide the Letter of Acceptance for purchase of the jets by May 24, but a diplomatic source revealed that the document was not issued, leading to expiry of the offer.
> 
> *'Pakistan to join MTCR at appropriate time'*
> The FO spokesman said Pakistan would choose to become a part of the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) at an ‘appropriate’ time.
> 
> Pakistan has a fairly advanced missile programme and has developed a number of short- and medium-range ballistic missiles and UAVs, but it has never sought membership of the MTCR, which theoretically could have facilitated its access to high-end missile technologies.
> 
> India, however, became the 35th member of the MTCR this week after a consensus emerged in the regime on admitting it into its fold.
> 
> *'Asked for more evidence on Mumbai attacks'*
> Zakaria said that Pakistan has asked Indian authorities for more evidence regarding the Mumbai attacks so that Pakistan can pursue the case.
> 
> "Foreign Secretary Aizaz Chaudhry has written a letter to concerned authorities across the border and has demanded further details regarding the evidence linking Pakistan to the attacks," he said.
> 
> *Foreign policy to be sorted out during envoys conference*
> Pakistan envoys have been called together for a meeting next month to discuss the rapidly changing scenario of international politics, the FO spokesman said.
> 
> The conference will also be used to devise a fitter strategy to deal with the future developments.
> 
> The development comes amidst criticism of the government's foreign policy by members of the opposition who claim that Pakistan is becoming isolated and needs to maintain good relations with neighbouring countries.



No more F-16s till the approval of Aim-9X and AESA radars integration in current fleet from USA


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## zeeshan shaani

princefaisal said:


> No more F-16s till the approval of Aim-9X and AESA radars integration in current fleet from USA


Just forget about it. It will not happen. There are block 52 who are struggling their way and u are talking about AESA and aim 9x.


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## RedRock

Oscar said:


> They want to make sure that the pretty high end systems we have in the Block-52's are not looked at by the Chinese.


Hey,
i was wondering if it is possible to get Japanese F-2 since the Japanese are looking into replacing them. Is it only up to the Japanese who they sell it to or do the Americans even have a say in it? I checked Wikipedia and it shows it is only the Japanese operating this aircraft, is that true? Would it be any easy induction or would PAF pilots and ground crews have to go through extensive training for it?
BR


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## aliyusuf

This being an election year, things were more likely to go the Indian lobbyists' way vis-à-vis Pakistani procurement of US weapons. Hence the negative narrative and mood in Congress about Pakistan. Although the sale of 8 new Block-52s were approved but the funding stipulated in the deal has been rejected.

After the elections, the mood will gradually soften towards Pakistan and some goodies might come our way, albeit with more strings attached.

But the growing -ve narrative against Pakistan, that has been building over the past year and a half is not going to go away and will still retain certain level of intensity. It is going to get increasingly difficult for Pakistan to get arms from the US on favorable terms in the future, if at all.

Would be better if Pakistan could cultivate alternate options as a contingency, in addition to the already in place plans for laying the foundations for an indigenous aviation industry know-how ... as revealed by the ACM in a recent TV interview. This way if the indigenous program hits a snag, the alternate option could be opted for as a stop gap to meet the capabilities requirements.

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## princefaisal

zeeshan shaani said:


> Just forget about it. It will not happen. There are block 52 who are struggling their way and u are talking about AESA and aim 9x.


Without AESA and Aim-9x, block-52 are nothing against Rafale and Su-30mki. By the way, other F-16s are also MLUd and are at par with block-52 in avionics.


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## zeeshan shaani

princefaisal said:


> Without AESA and Aim-9x, block-52 are nothing against Rafale and Su-30mki. By the way, other F-16s are also MLUd and are at par with block-52 in avionics.


What i am saying is AESA and aim 9x is impossible from usa near future. It is another thing if usa gives approval to integrate some other AESA radar on pakistani f16. It contains BIG iF. This is also unlikely at present but in near future it can happen. F16 block 52+ can give tough time to su30 and it can stand againt mki but not against rafael. And i know all f16 are MLUd but they are not at par with b52. They are at equal standard as b52 except two differences engine and CFT.


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## princefaisal

zeeshan shaani said:


> What i am saying is AESA and aim 9x is impossible from usa near future. It is another thing if usa gives approval to integrate some other AESA radar on pakistani f16. It contains BIG iF. This is also unlikely at present but in near future it can happen. F16 block 52+ can give tough time to su30 and it can stand againt mki but not against rafael. And i know all f16 are MLUd but they are not at par with b52. They are at equal standard as b52 except two differences engine and CFT.


I have clearly mentioned that MLUd F-16s are equal to Block-52 in avionics, means only in avionics.


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## zeeshan shaani

princefaisal said:


> I have clearly mentioned that MLUd F-16s are equal to Block-52 in avionics, means only in avionics.


R u kidding? Go and check u said at par not equal.


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## SQ8

RedRock said:


> Hey,
> i was wondering if it is possible to get Japanese F-2 since the Japanese are looking into replacing them. Is it only up to the Japanese who they sell it to or do the Americans even have a say in it? I checked Wikipedia and it shows it is only the Japanese operating this aircraft, is that true? Would it be any easy induction or would PAF pilots and ground crews have to go through extensive training for it?
> BR


The F-2 is a very specialised system that was very Japan specific(even the avionics are in Japanese). Moreover, since the Japanese are now looking for a replacement for it, there is no longer going to be product support since no one else besides the Japanese use it.

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## Thorough Pro

Delusional Pakistanis who despite knowing full well that we can't even get 8 are still hopeful for larger number.



Beethoven said:


> Just saw a statement from the Minister for defence production Rana Tanveer on ARY News that Pakistan is still in talks with Washington over the sale of F-16 aircraft...it seems that our obsession with the -16 is not yet over nonetheless now that the original deal for 8 F-16's has expired...it makes me wonder Pakistan might be looking at a number which would be much larger than 8 this time around...your thoughts?????? @Horus @Windjammer


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## princefaisal

zeeshan shaani said:


> R u kidding? Go and check u said at par not equal.


At par means similarity of avionics with that of block-52. I just want to convey my opinion. Mostly got my point and you r still playing with words.


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## khanasifm

Jordanianf16 for sale info

Jordanianf16 for sale
http://www.rjaf.mil.jo/index.php/en...e-to-sell-15-serviceable-f16-m3-aircraft.html

Details

Jordanian F16

uSAF inv.







http://wiki.scramble.nl/index.php/Lockheed_Martin_F-16_Fighting_Falcon
* 
M3*

Integration of Link 16 secure tactical datalink system.
GPS-guided weapons capability added.
Introduction of JHMCS.
Advanced short-range missile replacement for the current Sidewinder introduced.

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## umair86pk

I think these are coming to Pakistan as speculate by defence secatery


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## nomi007

hope usa will creats hurdles


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## nomi007

proud to be a gujjar

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## aliyusuf

gai bhens paani mein!


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## monitor

*Featured Articles*
*Electric Jet - How the F-16 Became the World’s First Fly-By-Wire Combat Aircraft*
F-16 Featured Articles
_By David Bellm_
*Introduction*
The desert sun shined down on the glistening red-white-and-blue airplane, sending heat rippling and distorting off its surface as it sat on the runway at Edwards Air Force Base. General Dynamics test pilot Phil Oestricher sat in the cockpit, making last-minute checks.





YF-16A prototype, #01567 over Nevada. (USAF photo)
The first test flight of any new plane is risky, full of variables that can’t be foreseen on engineering prints or out in the shop as it’s assembled. What’s more, this particular machine had more than the usual amount of such unknowns. The airplane Oestricher was strapped into was YF-16 number one, the prototype of General Dynamics’ entry into the U.S. Air Force’s 1974 competition to select a new lightweight fighter plane.

Filled with advanced systems and largely theoretical design concepts, the YF-16 couldn’t be evaluated on the ground, especially given the limited state of simulators and computer technology at the time. And so, despite having some of the most sophisticated equipment ever incorporated into an aircraft thus far, proving or disproving the merit of this radical design would have to be done the same dangerous way it had been done since Orville and Wilbur took to the air at Kittyhawk—with test pilots like Oestricher strapping in and betting their life on everything working.

This pioneering version of the YF-16 was to make its first flight today. But calling it a “flight” was perhaps being generous. “Hop” would be more accurate. Oestricher was to lift the plane only a few feet off the ground, for just a few seconds, then put it back down on the runway. And even this tentative, careful step toward a true first flight was to happen only after a series of conservative taxi tests, each one edging closer to flying speed.




Roll-out of YF-16 #72-1567 on December 13th, 1973 at Fort Worth. (GD photo)
The initial taxi runs had been completed without incident, and Oestricher was ready for the short hop to establish the design’s basic airworthiness. He pushed the throttle forward, and the plane began to roll, slowly at first, but steadily gaining speed at an increasing rate. Fifty, eighty, then past 100 knots. At approximately 130 knots, he lifted the nose of the aircraft to ten degrees, and then pushed the stick gently to the left and right, to get a feel for the control system. But the plane didn’t respond.

Figuring that the lack of control was due to the plane’s main wheels still being on the runway, he increased the angle of attack slightly, and the main gear rose off the ground. But as the plane began to fly, its left wing immediately dropped. Oestricher applied right stick to compensate, and the wing flopped the opposite way, dropping its right wing dangerously close to the runway.




YF-16 (#01568) and F-16 No.1 (#75745). Note the radar-less small nose of the YF on the left. (Photo by Tom Collins)
The plane continued to accelerate. The oscillation worsened. Back and forth the wings rocked. As the situation continued to deteriorate, a Sidewinder missile on the left wingtip brushed the surface of the runway. The plane bounced on its main landing gear and the right horizontal stabilizer smacked the ground.

As if things weren’t going badly enough, the plane’s nose then swung toward the edge of the runway as the YF-16 continued to accelerate. The rough desert surface loomed as the plane careened wildly.

It wasn’t entirely surprising that this machine would have problems. The YF-16 was one of the first planes in the world have an all fly-by-wire control system. Unlike conventional controls, it didn’t have any direct mechanical connection between the stick and the control surfaces. The YF-16 instead used electronic sensors to read the pilot’s stick inputs and then transmitted that—with computer interpretation—to hydraulic actuators that moved the control surfaces the appropriate amount.

There were many advantages to such a system, foremost among them the fact that it would allow the plane to be highly unstable and yet easily controllable, the theoretical ideal for a fighter aircraft.

Generally speaking, the more unstable a plane is the more maneuverable it can be. Throughout most of aviation history, however, there had been a practical limit to this “relaxed static stability,” as engineers term it. If a plane was too instable, the pilot wouldn’t have been able to keep it under control, given the limitations of human reflexes.

Enter the computer age. With a fly-by-wire system, a computer is employed to constantly monitor the attitude of the airplane, compare that to what the control inputs dictate, and automatically make adjustments to the control surfaces to keep the plane flying the way the pilot intends. And it can do this many times per second. For the new generation of fighter plane the YF-16 represented, fly-by-wire could clearly pay tremendous dividends.

If only it could be made to work.

But at this point, the prototype YF-16 was quickly flailing toward becoming a ball of scrap metal. Then, with the plane heading off the runway and time running out, Oestricher pulled further back on the stick and flew the plane completely free of the runway, ignoring the original plan for the test. He climbed out slowly in a shallow left turn, setting up a wide pattern back around, finishing the incident with a long decelerating approach and a relatively uneventful landing.





YF-16 no. 1 is spotted landing at the end of the inadvertent flight following the high speed taxi trials. The static discharger on the right side scraped the ground and the wheel on the rear of the missile on the right wing was also scraped.. (LMTAS photo)
Back in its hangar, General Dynamics’ engineers swarmed over the plane, and found the problem quickly. Mostly it was the fault of an overly-sensitive control stick setup, which caused Oestricher to get a full-rate roll every time he tried to stop the oscillation of the wings.

By that evening, the team had come up with a solution, a manually operated switch in the cockpit to make the controls less-sensitive during taxiing, takeoff, and landing. But for now the YF-16 was grounded. Its stabilizer had been extensively damaged in its violent gyrations on the runway. It would need to be repaired before the next test flight.

Although the F-16’s control system may have at the time seemed a revolutionary development, it was actually the culmination of years of evolution, going back decades prior. One of the very first steps toward a full fly-by-wire system was created in the late 1940s, for use on the Northrop B-49. A “flying wing” design, the B-49 lacked conventional horizontal or vertical tail surfaces. Or a fuselage on which to mount them for that matter.

In test flights, the B-49 proved not as unstable as its radical configuration might imply, but neither was it as stable as it needed to be. To cure the problem, Northrop engineers designed an electronic stability augmenter that made the plane act more like those with normal tail surfaces.

In the years that followed, engineers began fitting high-performance aircraft with parallel control systems that assisted the usual hydro-mechanical arrangement. These new systems used analog computers to monitor and correct pilots’ control inputs on these unstable machines.

The culmination of this type of system came in the early 1960s, on the rocket-powered X-15. With the enormous range of speeds and altitudes the X-15 was capable of, it was apparent from the beginning of the program that ordinary control systems alone wouldn’t do. To that end, Honeywell developed what it referred to as an “adaptive control system,” to assist with the plane’s re-entry from outer space.

But despite the system’s promise, it proved trouble-prone and was said to malfunction on 25 percent of the plane’s free flights. It was partially blamed for the crash which destroyed the only X-15 the system was installed on.

It would be NASA and the space program that would ultimately sort out fly-by-wire’s inherent problem and prove its viability as a stand-alone control system. Most visible of NASA’s early forays into full fly-by-wire systems was the Gemini 2 spacecraft, which led to the final proof of fly-by-wire’s true promise, the Apollo Lunar Lander.

In connection with that program, one famous NASA employee proved particularly valuable in the evolution of fly-by-wire aircraft. After returning from the moon, Neil Armstrong accepted a position as NASA’s Deputy Associate Administrator for Aeronautics. He then used his pull as a former astronaut to secure the use of an Apollo Lunar-Lander computer, which had become available after the Apollo program’s premature cancellation.

A fly-by-wire system was built around this computer and fitted to a Navy F-8 Crusader, generally referred by its tail number, “NASA 802.” With test pilot Gary Krier at the controls, NASA 802 on May 25, 1972 became the first American airplane to fly without mechanical connection between pilot and control surfaces. The first being the Canadian built CF-105.

One of the people who was paying close attention to early flights of NASA’s fly-by-wire F-8 was Harry Hillaker. A longtime veteran with General Dynamics, he had begun his career with the company fresh out of college in the 1940s, when the company went by the name Consolidated Aircraft. He started his work there doing conceptual designs for the B-36 bomber, and over the next decades he would contribute to numerous high-profile military projects.

But during his tenure with the company, he had witnessed military aircraft designs almost universally become heavier, less maneuverable, and arguably less efficient at their intended missions. Dissatisfied with this trend, by 1965 he had begun to think about a lightweight, extremely maneuverable fighter plane. Assigned to work on General Dynamics’ troubled F-111 project by day, he began developing his dream fighter on his own time.

By the late 1960s he had teamed with civilian defense analyst Pierre Sprey and Colonel John R. Boyd, an outspoken, controversial Air Force fighter pilot who was similarly concerned about the state of military aircraft design. Together they began to push forward with Hillaker’s lightweight fighter concept.

As the 1970s began, the trio’s theoretical studies had captured the attention of the Pentagon. “We got our big break,” says Hillaker, “when David Packard, who was then Deputy Secretary of Defense, came up with his Technology Demonstration concept. He was concerned that we weren’t moving technology along fast enough and that we needed to do some demonstrators. So out of some hundred or so programs that the Air Force examined, they picked the Lightweight Fighter, and the program that the F-117 came out of.”




YF-16 prototype in Navy livery standing side by side with the YF-17 prototype. (USAF photo)
Now with government support, Hillaker’s dream plane came together into a functioning prototype, by this time referred to as the YF-16. Originally intended strictly to satisfy Packard’s demand for experimentation with advanced technologies, the program nonetheless steadily moved toward an actual production airplane. It would compete against Northrop’s somewhat more conventional YF-17 design.

For the YF-16, Hillaker sought maneuverability equal or superior to that of any fighter plane thus far. He had noted that NASA’s fly-by-wire F-8 test aircraft had about two-and-a-half times the response of one equipped with a hydro-mechanical control system. Impressed by such an advantage, Hillaker saw to it that a similar fly-by-wire system was incorporated into the F-16.





NASA F-8 used to test fly-by-wire technology. (NASA Dryden Flight Research Center Photo)
However, while the NASA F-8 had a digital system, the F-16’s system was analog—General Dynamics engineers felt that digital systems weren’t yet reliable enough for a production aircraft.

Along with incorporating the fly-by-wire control system, Hillaker and his team moved the control stick from its traditional position between the pilot’s legs to along the right side of the cockpit—a rather unusual location at the time. While this offered some bio-mechanical advantages for the pilot, the unconventional stick position actually came about to solve a more fundamental problem. “One of the reasons we wanted the sidestick controller was because the airplane was so small,” says Hillaker. “If we’d have had the stick in the middle, that would have obscured some of the instrument panel. It made more of the panel available for decent displays.”

However, on a pioneering fly-by-wire aircraft it wasn’t as simple as just moving the stick to the side a dozen or so inches. The feel was entirely foreign to pilots, regardless of position. “So far as the flight control system goes, the biggest thing we felt we had to overcome was the sidestick controller,” Hillaker says. “Not only its location, but the fact that it initially was operated totally by the pilot’s force. We subsequently then, after pilot comments, put a little bit of motion in it so they had some sense that something was happening.”

Although not without problems early on, as Oestricher unwittingly discovered, both the fly-by-wire system and its radical sidestick controller were quickly refined into effective, reliable features of the new aircraft. With the help of these systems, the plane proved itself superior in most respects to Northrop’s YF-17, the YF-16’s primary rival in the Air Force’s lightweight fighter competition.

But in some ways, it was surprising that the YF-16 even made it to the competition at all. From the beginning, Hillaker’s dream plane had a number of factors working against it. Foremost among these were initial lack of interest, an Air Force steeped in opposing philosophy, and Pentagon brass antagonized by the unyielding personality of Boyd.

And these hurdles were, of course, in addition to the shock value of the basic F-16 design itself, which did nothing to hide its radical design philosophies and somewhat unproven technologies. The plane seemed like a big gamble to many within the Air Force.

Nonetheless, the F-16 design had passed its first milestone, beating its more conventional Northrop competitor in a series of extensive tests. The F-16 was steadily gaining momentum and talk of a production version began.

But the F-16 wasn’t in clear sky just yet. Far from it. The very idea of such a plane still had some stubborn obstacles to overcome.

Foremost among them was a gigantic Eagle.





A flight of Aggressor F-15s and F-16s fly in formation. (USAF photo by MSgt. Kevin J. Gruenwald)
The climate in the Air Force at the time wasn’t the best for a plane like the F-16. The Air Force hadn’t had its own original-design air-superiority fighter since the 1950s. The F-4 Phantom, while highly effective and well-liked in Air Force service, was a Navy design that had been adopted at the last minute. And the more recent F-111 program had strayed so far from its original intent that the plane’s only resemblance to a fighter was in the almost ironic leftover “F” in its official alpha-numeric designation.

Now, in the early 1970s, the Air Force was finally getting the all new, exclusive air-superiority fighter it had been begging for—the McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle.

With the chance to get a new fighter having been such a rare opportunity, the Air Force didn’t want to risk blowing the deal by filling the plane with revolutionary ideas and unproven technologies. Thus, the “new” F-15 was in fact a relatively straightforward plane, built along the thinking of its F-4 Phantom predecessor. (Hillaker would later remark that the F-15 wasn’t even as sophisticated as the F-4 in many respects.)

Even the F-15’s physical size was comparable to the F-4 Phantom, having been created with the same “brute force” thinking, according to Hillaker—to gain more speed, add bigger engines. More range? Bigger fuel tanks. And so on down the line. The result was a rather large aircraft that represented no dramatic breakthroughs in design or technology.

But that was just what the Air Force wanted. They were reluctant to embrace anything that might jeopardize the F-15 project. And that made them especially wary of an upstart little single-engine fighter, controlled by a high-tech electronic system that had never even flown in a production airplane, much less endured the rigors of combat.

Many within the Air Force brass viewed the F-16 project as an unwelcome interloper, a threat to their juiciest project. “The F-15 had more emotional backing than any program I know,” says Hillaker. “It got to the point where anytime anybody said ‘F-15’ I cringed.”

Some of the Air Force’s bias against the F-16 was understandable; the Blue Suiters had been stung years earlier by a similar type of plane, the Lockheed F-104. Designed in the early 1950s to satisfy pilots’ endless wishes for higher speed and greater maneuverability, the F-104 proved to be useful for little else than going fast and jockeying around the sky. It had very limited range and payload capacity, and thus the Air Force only ordered a few hundred.

At least on the surface, the F-16 was a lot like the F-104—compact and single-engine, with a clear emphasis on all-out performance. None of these similarities were lost on the more conservative element of the Air Force establishment. The F-16 to them looked like a rerun of a bad situation.

But while Hillaker and his team couldn’t do much initially to overcome the “bigger is better” contingent of the Air Force, they left themselves an out with the most unique of the F-16’s high-tech features. They designed the plane so it could be fitted with conventional hydro-mechanical controls if the fly-by-wire system couldn’t be made to work acceptably. “We spaced the bulkheads so that we could move the wing back and have a statically-stable airplane,” says Hillaker. “We were just giving ourselves some insurance. The wing would have had to have been moved back eighteen inches. All we had to do was make the two bulkheads have the same load capacity. One of them that we would’ve moved the wing to was higher than it needed to be, unless you moved the wing back.”

The structural differences carried over to the production F-16 design, but fortunately were never needed. The fly-by-wire system’s control problems were quickly ironed out and the plane, even with all its advanced features, steadily gained support both in the U.S. and abroad.

At about this time, the F-16 project got one of its bigger breaks, according to Hillaker. “[U.S. Defense Secretary James] Schlesinger had been trying for some time to get some commonality with the Europeans and the U.S. on fighters. He decided to go with the Lightweight Fighter as the uniform airplane for the U.S. and Europe. He had us down, I think, for 300 planes and the Europeans, I think, for 350. But that grew like mad.”

And even some of the most stubborn F-15 proponents within the Air Force eventually warmed to the F-16. After seeing its true merits, they realized that there was a place in the inventory for a smaller sibling to their beloved Eagle. With the Air Force’s official approval of the F-16 came an increased acceptance of fly-by-wire technologies in general.

In the years that followed, the F-16 perhaps more than any other design has proven the viability of fly-by-wire technology for production aircraft. In 1978, the McDonnell Douglas F/A-18 Hornet became the first production plane to use a digital instead of analog fly-by-wire system. (The F-16 was eventually upgraded to a digital system in the late 1980s.)

In the years since the F-16’s introduction, fly-by-wire systems have become increasingly the norm for high-performance aircraft. They’ve been incorporated into planes ranging from stealthy weapons such as the B-2 and the F-22, to prosaic civilian haulers such as the Airbus A320 and the Boeing 777.





YF-16 number one now hangs as a display at the Virginia Air & Space Center in Hampton, Virginia. (Photo compliments of the Virginia Air & Space Center)
Nearly two decades after its adrenalin-soaked first flight, YF-16 number one sat forlornly, withering away in a storage hangar at General Dynamics’ Fort Worth division. Suffering scars from a number of harsh experimental programs over the years, the red-white-and-blue machine hardly hinted at the triumph of its earlier days.

As the hangar-doors rolled open, Oestricher and a group of fellow YF-16 test-pilots respectfully surveyed the ragged plane, walking along it and gently touching parts every so often. After a few minutes, Oestricher turned to a reporter from Lockheed Martin’s Code One magazine and said, “What a wonderful airplane.”

Legions of pilots around the world surely agree.


A visual demonstration on how much the F-16 has evolved from the prototype. This UAEAF F-16E block 60 #3038 is taking its position to get refuelled on its way to a Red Flag exercise. (Photo by Elliboom)
*Sources*
The quotes are original from former General Dynamics engineer and F-16 developer Harry Hillaker, in a phone interviews in about 2007 - 2008.

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## Raider 21

A No.14 Squadron F-16 taking off from Sargodha on its way back to Kamra after staying overnight. Pilot : Sqn Ldr Shahid Sikandar Khan

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## Windjammer

Knuckles said:


> View attachment 324701
> View attachment 324703
> 
> 
> A No.14 Squadron F-16 taking off for Sargodha after staying overnight at Kamra. Pilot : Sqn Ldr Shahid Sikandar Khan



That must be well over ten year old image, I thought No-14 was based in Kamra.
This one belongs to PAF's latest F-16 unit, No-19 squadron.Sherdils.


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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> That must be well over ten year old image, I thought No-14 was based in Kamra.
> This one belongs to PAF's latest F-16 unit, No-19 squadron.Sherdils.


14 Squadron left F-16s in 1994, they stayed at Kamra and got re-equipped with F-7s. I remember 19 Squadron really well at Mianwali, they were the OCU squadron for F-7s.








No.14 Squadron under the command of Wing Commander Sabeeh Hussain in the early 90s. Only two of these pilots are still flying actively. One is all the way to the left at the front of the V formation. The other is 2nd from the right of the V (same pilot who was shot down over Afghanistan in the late 80s). The rest have all retired or seldom fly these days.

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## Windjammer



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## fatman17

Falcon

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## TOPGUN

Windjammer said:


>



Nice picture Windy , I see that that's one of the ADF vipers we got from Jordan do we know what sq they belong to ? and how come we see no pictures or videos of them ?


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## Windjammer

TOPGUN said:


> Nice picture Windy , I see that that's one of the ADF vipers we got from Jordan do we know what sq they belong to ? and how come we see no pictures or videos of them ?



They are with No-19 Squadron (Sherdil), I guess they are busy with what they do best.

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## Windjammer



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## hassan1



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## barbarosa

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 326563


A beautiful air craft but lock head martin has beg to India for F16 make in India project.


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## Manticore

wj

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## syed_yusuf

Pakistan need to start thinking beyond fsola

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## Signalian

Hoping that F-16 is the last fighter aircraft type that PAF acquires from USA.

Looking forward to hear news about new suppliers from Europe or Asia.

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## ZedZeeshan

Checkout the difference in height...!! Euro Fighter looks giant as compare to F16..

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## Signalian

ZedZeeshan said:


> View attachment 331173
> 
> 
> Checkout the difference in height...!! Euro Fighter looks giant as compare to F16..



Nose is even bigger giving more space to accommodate a bigger radar.

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## umair86pk

Eurofighter is a heavy weight fighter not medium weight like F-16. It has two engines which require more fuel carriagethats why its bigger


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## khanasifm

Weight Class

Eurofighter 23.5 ton class vs f16 blk 52+ 21.7 almost 22 ton class fighter so not much diff compared t F15 or Su
F16 A is lower weight class almost 38000 lbs or 19 tons
JF-17 is 13.5 Ton class (max), same as Mirage 5

http://www.148fw.ang.af.mil/resources/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=12261

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/f16/F-16Specifications.html


https://www.eurofighter.com/the-aircraft

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail-page-2.asp?aircraft_id=55

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Awhile ago---I compared the F16 to a Honda accord / civic----. The F16 being considered as the most reliable of fighter aircraft---.

Some did not like it and compared the F16 to the BMW---etc etc etc---.

So here is the release of information from auto express---BMW has the highest engine failure rates---actually amogst the 10 worst---7th from the bottom---somewhere around out of every 40 engines 1 failed---.

The honda was the most reliable----1 out of 344 engines failed---highest in reliability---almost twice as reliable than toyota and 3 times more reliable engine than mercedes.

Enjoy the link

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/62383/german-cars-among-worst-engine-failures

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## fatman17

Today in F-16 history

5 Sep 1989 
Pakistan orders 60 F-16s (Peace Gate IV).

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Well the fact we have not inducted a brand new F16 recently is quite negative development


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## RISING SUN

ZedZeeshan said:


> View attachment 331173
> 
> 
> Checkout the difference in height...!! Euro Fighter looks giant as compare to F16..


Angle and position of camera, see the background pls.


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## aliyusuf

US shift towards India is getting more and more overt and pronounced than ever before. This trend is going to continue. We are not going to get anything from the US that the Indians cannot counter with ease or do not have a remedy for. If they don't, then they will be catered for by the Americans ... covertly even if need be.

This will be even more so with passage of time. It is in their mutual interests as per their strategic goals.

We need to improve our performance on CPEC and earn deeper trust and cooperation from China. Off late poor CPEC implementation and corruption has somewhat mellowed the momentum of bilateral cooperation between Pakistan & China.

This may not be ideal or the best bang for the buck ... but it is the only sustainable and prudent long term approach.


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## barbarosa

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Awhile ago---I compared the F16 to a Honda accord / civic----. The F16 being considered as the most reliable of fighter aircraft---.
> 
> Some did not like it and compared the F16 to the BMW---etc etc etc---.
> 
> So here is the release of information from auto express---BMW has the highest engine failure rates---actually amogst the 10 worst---7th from the bottom---somewhere around out of every 40 engines 1 failed---.
> 
> The honda was the most reliable----1 out of 344 engines failed---highest in reliability---almost twice as reliable than toyota and 3 times more reliable engine than mercedes.
> 
> Enjoy the link
> 
> http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/62383/german-cars-among-worst-engine-failures


Sir you are right but Lock head Martin is begging for F16 production in India, What would be the future of Pakistan's F16s.


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## Viper0011.

barbarosa said:


> Sir you are right but Lock head Martin is begging for F16 production in India, What would be the future of Pakistan's F16s.



Pakistan needs to find a new Tier I platform and put less flying miles on the -16's to keep them as a backup. I covered everything in one sentence!!

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## MastanKhan

barbarosa said:


> Sir you are right but Lock head Martin is begging for F16 production in India, What would be the future of Pakistan's F16s.



Hi,

There is no future for new F16's in pakistan. There SHOULD be no future of F16's in pakistan.

The J10 is still the best bet around. A good deal maker will grind the chinese down to a very lucrative deal---either with selective chinese turkish italian & spanish ew systems---this aircraft can be upgraded from being a very good aircraft into an excellent aircraft---.

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## Sine Nomine

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is no future for new F16's in pakistan. There SHOULD be no future of F16's in pakistan.
> 
> The J10 is still the best bet around. A good deal maker will grind the chinese down to a very lucrative deal---either with selective chinese turkish italian & spanish ew systems---this aircraft can be upgraded from being a very good aircraft into an excellent aircraft---.


Nay sire we will wait till 2030 when j-xx will be enough mature to be inducted,till then we will produce a single engine short legged fighter which has to carry more fuel then ordnance and once jettisons drop tanks will surely have to run back to base aborting a mission because engine needs fuel.Then we will gather all used F-16 from everywhere and we will be largest f sola operator,look we are largest operator of legendary fighter it's a honour to be that.
If a war happens and we met a failure in AW we will just blame Govt and you know it will work.I sometime wonder Army takes government why it can't twist Government Arm to get new fighters rather housing schemes.

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## Windjammer



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## Viper0011.

قناص said:


> Nay sire we will wait till 2030 when j-xx will be enough mature to be inducted,till then we will produce a single engine short legged fighter which has to carry more fuel then ordnance and once jettisons drop tanks will surely have to run back to base aborting a mission because engine needs fuel.Then we will gather all used F-16 from everywhere and we will be largest f sola operator,look we are largest operator of legendary fighter it's a honour to be that.
> If a war happens and we met a failure in AW we will just blame Govt and you know it will work.I sometime wonder Army takes government why it can't twist Government Arm to get new fighters rather housing schemes.




Wow, you covered everything in this one post. When failure happens, and it will if you keep being the largest operator of some 4 decade old platforms, while your enemy has over 1000 top of the line jets, 500 of which based within a 20 minute flight to your country, "the man" behind "the machine" (a famous concept in the PAF), will simply fail as he'll be taken out from 60-100 KM's away!! 

And what would happen?? As always "the Civilians" will be blamed!! Just like right now, many on here, support a military government in Pakistan without realizing who is going to fed the generals and the 550 strong army? There is no more US aid and any other aid to be diverted to the military. Now the civilians have to produce to feed the military. If the military comes into power, well, the Chinese, Turks and everyone else will take their investments out. But as always, its the civilians who somehow made sure the PAF should operate the most legacy fighters of all times, be it the Mirages or the F-16's going forward. 

You must break this habit of total reliance almost down to a slave level, with a platform (Mirages, then, F-16 and now JFT). Or, you'll fail miserably!!


----------



## monitor

Photographer: Dibyangshu Sarkar/AFP via Getty Images
*India Could Become Next Hub for F-16 Jets in a Blow to Pakistan*

Nc Bipindra

Iain Marlow iainmarlow
August 23, 2016 — 4:00 AM BDT
Share on Facebook



Proposal said to give India a say over jet purchases
Pakistan may struggle to obtain spare F-16 parts under deal
Lockheed Martin Corp.’s offer to shift all of its F-16 manufacturing to India comes with an added benefit for Prime Minister Narendra Modi: A strategic win against nuclear rival Pakistan.

QUICKTAKEPakistan’s Turmoil




The proposal would give India partial control along with the U.S. over which countries are able to purchase F-16 fighter jets and spare parts, according to people familiar with the situation who asked not to be identified because the information isn’t public. That may allow India to choke off key supplies to Pakistan, which has relied on F-16s as its main aerial defense for decades, if the U.S. allows it do so.


“Some components may be produced only in India," Abhay Paranjape, director of business development at Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, said in an interview about the company’s F-16 proposal.

Asked whether Pakistan would still be able to source F-16 jets or parts elsewhere under the arrangement, Paranjape said questions about foreign military sales policies should be referred to the U.S. government. Roger Cabiness, a spokesman for the U.S. Department of Defense, in turn referred questions on the sale of F-16 spare parts to Lockheed.

The strategic element is a key selling point as Lockheed pushes to win an order that may exceed 100 fighter jets, part of Modi’s plan to spend $150 billion on the armed forces and create jobs under his “Make-in-India" policy. A deal would breathe new life into the F-16, an older model than the stealth F-35 warplane, and further boost U.S.-India defense ties at the expense of Pakistan.

*India Focus*
“What we are doing is putting India as the center of the supply base," Randall Howard, Lockheed Martin’s aeronautics business development director, said on Aug. 4 in New Delhi. “Today, there is no potential Pakistan sale."

India and Pakistan have been enemies ever since partition when Britain exited the region in 1947. The nuclear-armed neighbors have fought three wars over disputed territory, and have few economic ties.

U.S. relations with Pakistan have worsened in recent years. Congress in May refused to give subsidies for Pakistan to buy new F-16s, prompting it to considerbuying used ones from Jordan instead. The U.S. this month withheld another $300 million in military aid to Pakistan over its failure to take action against terrorists carrying out attacks on American troops in neighboring Afghanistan.

*Pakistan Looking Elsewhere*
Nafees Zakaria, a spokesman for Pakistan’s foreign ministry, declined to answer questions about Lockheed Martin’s F-16 proposal, as did Nungsanglemba Ao, a spokesman for India’s defense ministry.

The company’s overtures to India will prompt Pakistan to look more to China and Russia for military hardware, according to Najam Rafique, director at Islamabad’s Institute of Strategic Studies.

“Pakistan is diversifying its options," he said.

Competition for the India jet order is fierce. Lockheed Martin’s rivals such as Boeing Co. and Saab AB are all offering to shift some production to India as part of their bids to replenish India’s aging fleet. About a third of the nation’s 650 planes are more than 40 years old and set to retire in the next decade.

*Stalled Negotiations*
Modi last year scaled back an earlier deal with Dassault Aviation SA, opting to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets off the shelf instead of building 126 in India after negotiations hit repeated delays. That effort has since stalled over price, providing an opportunity to other jet-makers to step in. It’s unclear when a decision will be made.

Lockheed’s proposal attempts to turn its greatest weakness -- the fact that Pakistan also flies F-16s -- into a main reason for India to acquire the jet.

“Since India would house the only existing production line, it would be able to deny Pakistan any further platforms or also have influence on Pakistan Air Force logistics," said Pushan Das, who follows military modernization at the Observer Research Foundation in New Delhi.

Lockheed Martin, which is winding down F-16 production in the U.S., has successfully sold the jet for decades. The proposed facility in India would provide much-needed highly skilled jobs as Modi heads into several important state-level elections in 2017.

*Manufacturing ‘Ecosystem’*
“We are not looking at just assembling India’s F-16 here," Lockheed Martin’s Paranjape said. “We are looking at establishing a complete manufacturing base ecosystem."

Of course, it is still unclear which firm will win India’s lucrative fighter jet contract. 

Some analysts dismiss the F-16 as a dated “fourth generation" platform opposed by the Indian Air Force because it won’t have major upgrades in the future. Others like Georgetown University associate professor C. Christine Fair have suggested New Delhi is unlikely to get a more advanced fighter jet made in India because of difficulties with transferring state-of-the-art technology.

While many obstacles remain, an agreement with Lockheed Martin would cement closer ties between the nations if the U.S. government doesn’t prevent the transfer of advanced radar or avionics technologies, according to Anit Mukherjee, an assistant professor at Singapore’s S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies.

“If this deal was to happen -- and that’s a big if -- then it will be a big plus for U.S.-India relations and a significant indicator of the transformation in the defense relationship," he said. “If this deal goes through, and the U.S. is honest about tech transfer, then it has the potential to really build up India’s military-industrial base."

Before it's here, it's on the Bloomberg Terminal.LEARN MORE


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Lockheed Martin Corp

Pakistan

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Photographer: Qilai Shen/Bloomberg
*China Is About to Get Serious With Bad Debt*

Lianting Tu 
September 5, 2016 — 1:00 AM BDTUpdated on September 5, 2016 — 9:19 AM BDT
Share on Facebook



Banks raising capital to ‘tackle higher loan impairments’: Yap
Hybrid sales by finance companies had fallen 38% this year
China’s banks, which dialed down fundraising efforts this year even as bad debts swelled, are making up for lost time. 

Both lenders and the companies set up to acquire their delinquent assets are bolstering their finances. China Citic Bank Corp. last month announced plans to raise as much as 40 billion yuan ($6 billion), while Agricultural Bank of China Ltd., Industrial Bank Co. and China Zheshang Bank Co. are also boosting capital. China Cinda Asset Management Co. and China Huarong Asset Management Co. are poised to tap investors.

"Chinese banks are preemptively raising capital while pricing remains favorable in order to tackle higher loan impairments,” said Nicholas Yap, a credit analyst at Mitsubishi UFJ Securities HK Ltd. in Hong Kong. “Additionally, the mid- and small-sized lenders also need to boost their capital levels as they have been growing their asset bases rapidly, largely through their investment receivables portfolios."


Chinese banks have strained their finances with the busiest first-half lending spree on record, despite having the highest amount of bad debt in 11 years. Still, completed offerings of hybrid capital declined 38 percent after two consecutive years of record fundraising. A rule change in April that requires lenders to make full provisions for loan rights they have transferred is also encouraging the fundraising. BNP Paribas SA said Chinese lenders may be assessing the right time to approach investors.





“We do see a need for them to issue more, and expect them to raise more additional Tier-1 capital, if not this year then next year," said Charles Chang, head of Asia credit strategy and sector specialists at the firm in Hong Kong. “Loan growth continues to be pretty strong. Meanwhile, NPL ratios are ticking up so it would make sense."

China Zheshang Bank said it would raise 15 billion yuan selling offshore preference shares, securities with equity-like characteristics that count as Additional Tier-1 capital. In July, Industrial Bank said it plans to raise as much as 26 billion yuan in a private stock placement to replenish its highest-ranked buffer. Agricultural Bank will sell as much as 80 billion yuan of securities over three years for supplementary Tier-2 capital, the lender said in August.

“Much of the fundraising is also to support their balance sheet growth,” said Liao Qiang, banking analyst at S&P Global Ratings in Beijing. “This is also the reason why asset management companies are engaging in fundraising right now. They need more capital to support more purchases of bad loans.”


China Cinda has sent a request for proposals to banks for its planned 30 billion yuan equivalent dollar-denominated preference share offering, people familiar said last month. China Huarong plans to issue perpetual dollar bonds this month, separate people said in August.

Cinda is set to become the first Chinese asset management company to sell preference shares. So far in 2016, Chinese financial firms sold $24.1 billion of hybrid securities counted as capital, down 38 percent a year earlier, Bloomberg-compiled data show. China introduced stricter capital requirements to meet Basel III standards in January 2013 and Bank of China Ltd. was the first Chinese bank to sell preferred shares in 2014.





Natixis Asia Ltd. sees the big five lenders needing more capital as they take part in debt-to-equity swaps with delinquent borrowers. The French bank estimated in an Aug. 26 report the program would reduce their Tier-1 capital ratio by 3.3 percentage points to 9.1 percent. S&P says such swaps will only be a driver for fundraising when current trials are expanded.

“If it would be implemented system-wide, then you can certainly expect it to be another blow to the banks’ capital,” said Liao at S&P.

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----------



## Sine Nomine

Viper0011. said:


> Wow, you covered everything in this one post. When failure happens, and it will if you keep being the largest operator of some 4 decade old platforms, while your enemy has over 1000 top of the line jets, 500 of which based within a 20 minute flight to your country, "the man" behind "the machine" (a famous concept in the PAF), will simply fail as he'll be taken out from 60-100 KM's away!!
> 
> And what would happen?? As always "the Civilians" will be blamed!! Just like right now, many on here, support a military government in Pakistan without realizing who is going to fed the generals and the 550 strong army? There is no more US aid and any other aid to be diverted to the military. Now the civilians have to produce to feed the military. If the military comes into power, well, the Chinese, Turks and everyone else will take their investments out. But as always, its the civilians who somehow made sure the PAF should operate the most legacy fighters of all times, be it the Mirages or the F-16's going forward.
> 
> You must break this habit of total reliance almost down to a slave level, with a platform (Mirages, then, F-16 and now JFT). Or, you'll fail miserably!!


Simply it's million dollar question whom to blame for our sole reliance on just 76 fighters,I hold that view that JFT can't make any difference,reason you have seen it in normal configuration it carries 3 fuel tanks,it can only operate in borders it's unfit for role of leaving border and striking targets far from bases it lacks sufficient fuel capacity to do that,what 76 f sola will do currently we are in grave shortage of fighter jets if even we would have inducted 4 J 10 per year from start of that negotiations of acquiring them we will be having around 20+ right now.I haven't seen anybody meeting PM and asking him to do something we are in acquit shortage of fighters,all I hear f sola,then new x y z blocks of JFT and finally resting on a chinese fighter which will take at least 10 years to materialise to full form.

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## khanasifm

Turkey, so many other were/are building F16 they still have to meet ITAR and other requirements its not they can decide i need 10 this year for Turkish AF and just ignore US and Lockmart


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## LadyFinger

Anyone would appreciate having a good junkyard for their obsolete fleets, especially when they are getting no more good deals for such aircrafts, in this case 'the Lockheed martin' 


monitor said:


> Photographer: Dibyangshu Sarkar/AFP via Getty Images
> *India Could Become Next Hub for F-16 Jets in a Blow to Pakistan*
> 
> Nc Bipindra
> 
> Iain Marlow iainmarlow
> August 23, 2016 — 4:00 AM BDT
> Share on Facebook
> 
> 
> 
> Proposal said to give India a say over jet purchases
> Pakistan may struggle to obtain spare F-16 parts under deal
> Lockheed Martin Corp.’s offer to shift all of its F-16 manufacturing to India comes with an added benefit for Prime Minister Narendra Modi: A strategic win against nuclear rival Pakistan.
> 
> QUICKTAKEPakistan’s Turmoil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The proposal would give India partial control along with the U.S. over which countries are able to purchase F-16 fighter jets and spare parts, according to people familiar with the situation who asked not to be identified because the information isn’t public. That may allow India to choke off key supplies to Pakistan, which has relied on F-16s as its main aerial defense for decades, if the U.S. allows it do so.
> 
> 
> “Some components may be produced only in India," Abhay Paranjape, director of business development at Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, said in an interview about the company’s F-16 proposal.
> 
> Asked whether Pakistan would still be able to source F-16 jets or parts elsewhere under the arrangement, Paranjape said questions about foreign military sales policies should be referred to the U.S. government. Roger Cabiness, a spokesman for the U.S. Department of Defense, in turn referred questions on the sale of F-16 spare parts to Lockheed.
> 
> The strategic element is a key selling point as Lockheed pushes to win an order that may exceed 100 fighter jets, part of Modi’s plan to spend $150 billion on the armed forces and create jobs under his “Make-in-India" policy. A deal would breathe new life into the F-16, an older model than the stealth F-35 warplane, and further boost U.S.-India defense ties at the expense of Pakistan.
> 
> *India Focus*
> “What we are doing is putting India as the center of the supply base," Randall Howard, Lockheed Martin’s aeronautics business development director, said on Aug. 4 in New Delhi. “Today, there is no potential Pakistan sale."
> 
> India and Pakistan have been enemies ever since partition when Britain exited the region in 1947. The nuclear-armed neighbors have fought three wars over disputed territory, and have few economic ties.
> 
> U.S. relations with Pakistan have worsened in recent years. Congress in May refused to give subsidies for Pakistan to buy new F-16s, prompting it to considerbuying used ones from Jordan instead. The U.S. this month withheld another $300 million in military aid to Pakistan over its failure to take action against terrorists carrying out attacks on American troops in neighboring Afghanistan.
> 
> *Pakistan Looking Elsewhere*
> Nafees Zakaria, a spokesman for Pakistan’s foreign ministry, declined to answer questions about Lockheed Martin’s F-16 proposal, as did Nungsanglemba Ao, a spokesman for India’s defense ministry.
> 
> The company’s overtures to India will prompt Pakistan to look more to China and Russia for military hardware, according to Najam Rafique, director at Islamabad’s Institute of Strategic Studies.
> 
> “Pakistan is diversifying its options," he said.
> 
> Competition for the India jet order is fierce. Lockheed Martin’s rivals such as Boeing Co. and Saab AB are all offering to shift some production to India as part of their bids to replenish India’s aging fleet. About a third of the nation’s 650 planes are more than 40 years old and set to retire in the next decade.
> 
> *Stalled Negotiations*
> Modi last year scaled back an earlier deal with Dassault Aviation SA, opting to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets off the shelf instead of building 126 in India after negotiations hit repeated delays. That effort has since stalled over price, providing an opportunity to other jet-makers to step in. It’s unclear when a decision will be made.
> 
> Lockheed’s proposal attempts to turn its greatest weakness -- the fact that Pakistan also flies F-16s -- into a main reason for India to acquire the jet.
> 
> “Since India would house the only existing production line, it would be able to deny Pakistan any further platforms or also have influence on Pakistan Air Force logistics," said Pushan Das, who follows military modernization at the Observer Research Foundation in New Delhi.
> 
> Lockheed Martin, which is winding down F-16 production in the U.S., has successfully sold the jet for decades. The proposed facility in India would provide much-needed highly skilled jobs as Modi heads into several important state-level elections in 2017.
> 
> *Manufacturing ‘Ecosystem’*
> “We are not looking at just assembling India’s F-16 here," Lockheed Martin’s Paranjape said. “We are looking at establishing a complete manufacturing base ecosystem."
> 
> Of course, it is still unclear which firm will win India’s lucrative fighter jet contract.
> 
> Some analysts dismiss the F-16 as a dated “fourth generation" platform opposed by the Indian Air Force because it won’t have major upgrades in the future. Others like Georgetown University associate professor C. Christine Fair have suggested New Delhi is unlikely to get a more advanced fighter jet made in India because of difficulties with transferring state-of-the-art technology.
> 
> While many obstacles remain, an agreement with Lockheed Martin would cement closer ties between the nations if the U.S. government doesn’t prevent the transfer of advanced radar or avionics technologies, according to Anit Mukherjee, an assistant professor at Singapore’s S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies.
> 
> “If this deal was to happen -- and that’s a big if -- then it will be a big plus for U.S.-India relations and a significant indicator of the transformation in the defense relationship," he said. “If this deal goes through, and the U.S. is honest about tech transfer, then it has the potential to really build up India’s military-industrial base."
> 
> Before it's here, it's on the Bloomberg Terminal.LEARN MORE
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> Photographer: Qilai Shen/Bloomberg
> *China Is About to Get Serious With Bad Debt*
> 
> Lianting Tu
> September 5, 2016 — 1:00 AM BDTUpdated on September 5, 2016 — 9:19 AM BDT
> Share on Facebook
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> 
> 
> Banks raising capital to ‘tackle higher loan impairments’: Yap
> Hybrid sales by finance companies had fallen 38% this year
> China’s banks, which dialed down fundraising efforts this year even as bad debts swelled, are making up for lost time.
> 
> Both lenders and the companies set up to acquire their delinquent assets are bolstering their finances. China Citic Bank Corp. last month announced plans to raise as much as 40 billion yuan ($6 billion), while Agricultural Bank of China Ltd., Industrial Bank Co. and China Zheshang Bank Co. are also boosting capital. China Cinda Asset Management Co. and China Huarong Asset Management Co. are poised to tap investors.
> 
> "Chinese banks are preemptively raising capital while pricing remains favorable in order to tackle higher loan impairments,” said Nicholas Yap, a credit analyst at Mitsubishi UFJ Securities HK Ltd. in Hong Kong. “Additionally, the mid- and small-sized lenders also need to boost their capital levels as they have been growing their asset bases rapidly, largely through their investment receivables portfolios."
> 
> 
> Chinese banks have strained their finances with the busiest first-half lending spree on record, despite having the highest amount of bad debt in 11 years. Still, completed offerings of hybrid capital declined 38 percent after two consecutive years of record fundraising. A rule change in April that requires lenders to make full provisions for loan rights they have transferred is also encouraging the fundraising. BNP Paribas SA said Chinese lenders may be assessing the right time to approach investors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> “We do see a need for them to issue more, and expect them to raise more additional Tier-1 capital, if not this year then next year," said Charles Chang, head of Asia credit strategy and sector specialists at the firm in Hong Kong. “Loan growth continues to be pretty strong. Meanwhile, NPL ratios are ticking up so it would make sense."
> 
> China Zheshang Bank said it would raise 15 billion yuan selling offshore preference shares, securities with equity-like characteristics that count as Additional Tier-1 capital. In July, Industrial Bank said it plans to raise as much as 26 billion yuan in a private stock placement to replenish its highest-ranked buffer. Agricultural Bank will sell as much as 80 billion yuan of securities over three years for supplementary Tier-2 capital, the lender said in August.
> 
> “Much of the fundraising is also to support their balance sheet growth,” said Liao Qiang, banking analyst at S&P Global Ratings in Beijing. “This is also the reason why asset management companies are engaging in fundraising right now. They need more capital to support more purchases of bad loans.”
> 
> 
> China Cinda has sent a request for proposals to banks for its planned 30 billion yuan equivalent dollar-denominated preference share offering, people familiar said last month. China Huarong plans to issue perpetual dollar bonds this month, separate people said in August.
> 
> Cinda is set to become the first Chinese asset management company to sell preference shares. So far in 2016, Chinese financial firms sold $24.1 billion of hybrid securities counted as capital, down 38 percent a year earlier, Bloomberg-compiled data show. China introduced stricter capital requirements to meet Basel III standards in January 2013 and Bank of China Ltd. was the first Chinese bank to sell preferred shares in 2014.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Natixis Asia Ltd. sees the big five lenders needing more capital as they take part in debt-to-equity swaps with delinquent borrowers. The French bank estimated in an Aug. 26 report the program would reduce their Tier-1 capital ratio by 3.3 percentage points to 9.1 percent. S&P says such swaps will only be a driver for fundraising when current trials are expanded.
> 
> “If it would be implemented system-wide, then you can certainly expect it to be another blow to the banks’ capital,” said Liao at S&P.
> 
> Before it's here, it's on the Bloomberg Terminal.LEARN MORE

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## barbarosa

Viper0011. said:


> Pakistan needs to find a new Tier I platform and put less flying miles on the -16's to keep them as a backup. I covered everything in one sentence!!


Sir i agree with you, Pakistan should buy J10 as the alternative of F16 OR EURO FIGHTERS.


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## monitor

LadyFinger said:


> Anyone would appreciate having a good junkyard for their obsolete fleets, especially when they are getting no more good deals for such aircrafts, in this case 'the Lockheed martin'



F-16 with it's upgrade still not a junk. At least in India Pakistan scenario until India induct enough number of pakfa in its fleet. Pakistan have to continue rely on F-16 as it's first tier fighter but also needs to search for a better alternative in current changing geo political scenario.

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## CHI RULES

Viper0011. said:


> Wow, you covered everything in this one post. When failure happens, and it will if you keep being the largest operator of some 4 decade old platforms, while your enemy has over 1000 top of the line jets, 500 of which based within a 20 minute flight to your country, "the man" behind "the machine" (a famous concept in the PAF), will simply fail as he'll be taken out from 60-100 KM's away!!
> 
> And what would happen?? As always "the Civilians" will be blamed!! Just like right now, many on here, support a military government in Pakistan without realizing who is going to fed the generals and the 550 strong army? There is no more US aid and any other aid to be diverted to the military. Now the civilians have to produce to feed the military. If the military comes into power, well, the Chinese, Turks and everyone else will take their investments out. But as always, its the civilians who somehow made sure the PAF should operate the most legacy fighters of all times, be it the Mirages or the F-16's going forward.
> 
> You must break this habit of total reliance almost down to a slave level, with a platform (Mirages, then, F-16 and now JFT). Or, you'll fail miserably!!



Sir, I beg to differ from you and person you are admiring, the defense related purchases are made by ministry of defense and not by the PAF.( though their input is important).On the other hand the incentives like housing schemes are nothing worth for people who are willing to die for their country. Such schemes are there for Wapda employees, for Railway people and also for federal Govt employees. I wonder why only armed forces people are blamed when this is fact that they are getting far less incentives as compared to their adversaries.

On the other hand US aid has proved to be less effective for betterment of economy it is yes more or less used to develop more spies for USA in Pak. You may also get reality of the majority of World Bank/IMF projects not only for Pak but most of underdeveloped/developing countries.

As for army expenses it was the incapacity of previous Govt's to develop better strategies even in field of defense, the environment is changing perhaps mostly due to tilt of USA towards India. The CPEC project if handled properly shall be enough to support even double size army. Further armed forces are now doing all efforts to get self reliance and limited weapons exports have been started. The time shall come when our defense expenses major part shall be covered by our exports.

In USA case the most of defense expenses are offset by selling of weapons to Africa and rest of world mostly in conflict areas same is case with Russia. Now due to incapacity of the Arabs now USA is also sucking wealth of KSA,Quawit and other rich countries of the region. On the other hand the gold and wealth of Iraq has already been distributed between USA /EU allies involved in Iraq war.

Despite all negativity the JF17 project is going on and by the grace of Almighty shall bear fruit by 2018 when JF17-block-iii is launched. On the other hand if our PAF chief is going for visits to EU and other countries then it shows how desperate he is for getting new platform. Yet his hands are tied and decision maker is Govt.
*The current position is being faced due to incapability of Gov to do lobbying in US senate to get F16V along with AMRAAM 120-D or AIM9-X. Even we are unable to get block 50+ F16s.*

We should get ready to keep our F16s active till up to end of their service life as we did with Mirages. On the other hand should try to get Eu fighter jet trench-1 shall be available cheaply soon in large numbers and go for their upgrade later on. The combo of JF17s block-III and Euro fighters if inducted supported by F16s ( assuming no further upgrade) may suffice our requirements in medium term till induction of 5th gen fighter.

We should get ready to keep our F16s active till up to end of their service life as we did with Mirages. On the other hand should try to get Eu fighter jet trench-1 shall be available cheaply soon in large numbers and go for their upgrade later on. The combo of JF17s block-III and Euro fighters if inducted supported by F16s ( assuming no further upgrade) may suffice our requirements in medium term till induction of 5th gen fighter.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is no future for new F16's in pakistan. There SHOULD be no future of F16's in pakistan.
> 
> The J10 is still the best bet around. A good deal maker will grind the chinese down to a very lucrative deal---either with selective chinese turkish italian & spanish ew systems---this aircraft can be upgraded from being a very good aircraft into an excellent aircraft---.



Yes J10 is a good option if assumed to be a car, but there is short problem if car is running and have engine our any electronics issue we may stop it anywhere and get it repaired but not possible for flying jet.
The J10 has following issues.

1.Russian engine reliability. ( limited availability of Chinese engine)
2. Avionics issues
3. FBW issues.
4 Limited endurance.
5. Despite strict censorship many news of accidents.

China having such fighter jets in large numbers i.e 300+ may over come such issues especially losing some jets, however country like Pak getting limited numbers say 40-50 can't afford it same case as India having SU30s up to 220 if even 100 are available then they suffice IAF cause.


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## MastanKhan

CHI RULES said:


> Yes J10 is a good option if assumed to be a car, but there is short problem if car is running and have engine our any electronics issue we may stop it anywhere and get it repaired but not possible for flying jet.
> The J10 has following issues.
> 
> 1.Russian engine reliability. ( limited availability of Chinese engine)
> 2. Avionics issues
> 3. FBW issues.
> 4 Limited endurance.
> 5. Despite strict censorship many news of accidents.
> 
> China having such fighter jets in large numbers i.e 300+ may over come such issues especially losing some jets, however country like Pak getting limited numbers say 40-50 can't afford it same case as India having SU30s up to 220 if even 100 are available then they suffice IAF cause.



Hi,

What about the F7PG's we have been flying---they also had very poor flight record---the F16---when we received them first---they also had over 5--7 % atrocity rate---far higher than the 4% of the J10's.

A car is a reference given for the working of a machine---IN REFERENCE TO THE CONTEXT THAT IT IS USED UNDER----.

Even a fool would understand that a car is driven on the road and an aircraft is flying in air---except for some pakistanis.

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## CHI RULES

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What about the F7PG's we have been flying---they also had very poor flight record---the F16---when we received them first---they also had over 5--7 % atrocity rate---far higher than the 4% of the J10's.
> 
> A car is a reference given for the working of a machine---IN REFERENCE TO THE CONTEXT THAT IT IS USED UNDER----.
> 
> Even a fool would understand that a car is driven on the road and an aircraft is flying in air---except for some pakistanis.


 Are you sure about F7 Pg poor flight record ? how you are sure that J10s have only 4% attrocity rate. Many pros have explained on same forum abt problems with FBW and engine of J10.

On the other hand a sales guy like you or finance guy like me are not qualified enough to judge J10 technically if not preferred then PAF may have reasons you may get some facts from Mr Oscar or Windjammer.

By the way flying car concept is also not new.


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## MastanKhan

CHI RULES said:


> Are you sure about F7 Pg poor flight record ? how you are sure that J10s have only 4% attrocity rate. Many pros have explained on same forum abt problems with FBW and engine of J10.
> 
> On the other hand a sales guy like you or finance guy like me are not qualified enough to judge J10 technically if not preferred then PAF may have reasons you may get some facts from Mr Oscar or Windjammer.
> 
> By the way flying car concept is also not new.



Hi,

You need to go back and look into the atrocity rate of the F16's in their first 20 years of life span---it comes down to over 10%.

A lot of it has to do with inherited problems---and a lots of it has to do with maintenance problems---. So the atrocity rate of the J10's is nothing out of the ordinary---.

Even though Hondas and toyotas are very reliable cars---we still sell extended warranties for their upkeep---.

When a customer does not want to buy an extended warranty---we take them back to the service dept to show the number of cars under repair---.

The J10 is still developing---J10 A B C and maybe another model---each one of them are going thru extensive & extreme flight training---what is it---only been in deployment for just around 12-14 years.

The chinese don't want to tell anyone what extreme missions were they flying at the time of the accident---over half of them were bird strikes---.

I had posted a link of F16 and a detailed unit count of crashes each year of the first 20 years of flight---please someone if they can forward them to Chi---thanks.

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## CHI RULES

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You need to go back and look into the atrocity rate of the F16's in their first 20 years of life span---it comes down to over 10%.
> 
> A lot of it has to do with inherited problems---and a lots of it has to do with maintenance problems---. So the atrocity rate of the J10's is nothing out of the ordinary---.
> 
> Even though Hondas and toyotas are very reliable cars---we still sell extended warranties for their upkeep---.
> 
> When a customer does not want to buy an extended warranty---we take them back to the service dept to show the number of cars under repair---.
> 
> The J10 is still developing---J10 A B C and maybe another model---each one of them are going thru extensive & extreme flight training---what is it---only been in deployment for just around 12-14 years.
> 
> The chinese don't want to tell anyone what extreme missions were they flying at the time of the accident---over half of them were bird strikes---.
> 
> I had posted a link of F16 and a detailed unit count of crashes each year of the first 20 years of flight---please someone if they can forward them to Chi---thanks.



Thks Sir


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## ghazi768

قناص said:


> Nay sire we will wait till 2030 when j-xx will be enough mature to be inducted,till then we will produce a single engine short legged fighter which has to carry more fuel then ordnance and once jettisons drop tanks will surely have to run back to base aborting a mission because engine needs fuel.Then we will gather all used F-16 from everywhere and we will be largest f sola operator,look we are largest operator of legendary fighter it's a honour to be that.
> If a war happens and we met a failure in AW we will just blame Govt and you know it will work.I sometime wonder Army takes government why it can't twist Government Arm to get new fighters rather housing schemes.


May I ask why that fighter is short legged, can you detail the arguments for this?


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## ziaulislam

people who are screaming typhoon, su 35 and j-10 should realize one thing
countries will likley be destroyed by running them selves bankrupt

what did countries like sweden did to counter USSR, developed home made sustainable platform
future for PAF is 250 odd thunders with standoff weapons and f-16s for strike rule. otherwise you end up bankrupt

reality is that we like bangladesh are a small country with no enormous wealth

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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> people who are screaming typhoon, su 35 and j-10 should realize one thing
> countries will likley be destroyed by running them selves bankrupt
> 
> what did countries like sweden did to counter USSR, developed home made sustainable platform
> future for PAF is 250 odd thunders with standoff weapons and f-16s for strike rule. otherwise you end up bankrupt
> 
> reality is that we like bangladesh are a small country with no enormous wealth



Hi,

About Sweden---it is technically incorrect---. Their true strength is Nato standing right behind them.

So---why does sweden produce an aircraft---. The reason being to keep their fighter aircraft industry alive---.

They come up with a small functional fighter---that give the country local jobs---and keep the technicians and aircraft engineers employed---.

The Gripen is there just to give Nato the breathing room to get into position---so that the big boys can come and do the job.

It really shocks me to see how illiterate most of you kids and adults are in matters of defence---.

What shocks me more is that the learning disabilities that you people have---.

Which means most of you people are illiterate to history---you have no access to books and other reading material---you have no access to books written by NON PAKISTANIS.

When fan boys talk---they need to remember---the pilot in the SU30 or the M2K has been flying for a much longer time in that bird.

And what did Gen. Chuck Yegaer say---" A better pilot is a more experienced pilot ".

In the history of warfare---larger numbers of heavy armor have always defeated lighter armor---.

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## ziaulislam

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> About Sweden---it is technically incorrect---. Their true strength is Nato standing right behind them.
> 
> So---why does sweden produce an aircraft---. The reason being to keep their fighter aircraft industry alive---.
> 
> They come up with a small functional fighter---that give the country local jobs---and keep the technicians and aircraft engineers employed---.
> 
> The Gripen is there just to give Nato the breathing room to get into position---so that the big boys can come and do the job.
> 
> It really shocks me to see how illiterate most of you kids and adults are in matters of defence---.
> 
> What shocks me more is that the learning disabilities that you people have---.
> 
> Which means most of you people are illiterate to history---you have no access to books and other reading material---you have no access to books written by NON PAKISTANIS.
> 
> When fan boys talk---they need to remember---the pilot in the SU30 or the M2K has been flying for a much longer time in that bird.
> 
> And what did Gen. Chuck Yegaer say---" A better pilot is a more experienced pilot ".
> 
> In the history of warfare---larger numbers of heavy armor have always defeated lighter armor---.


no disrespect, you do sweet talk and i cannot compete with you on that but none of your claims are backed by facts, you simply mock other people and do sophisticated talk...

more pressing issues than buying billion of dollars of plans are people dying of share hunger in pakistan

i dont think this would matter as facts dont count but FYI, no one was there to protect Poland or Ukraine in modern times..
Sweden WAS NOT PART OF NATO otherwise they would have gone for f-16s
we should learn from other countries, no country spend so much on defence when its own people are so poor, we dont have luxury of spending what we already are, otherwise we will remian poor and uneducated for ever and which would ultimately be our undoing, not being conquered by india


----------



## umair86pk

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> About Sweden---it is technically incorrect---. Their true strength is Nato standing right behind them.
> 
> So---why does sweden produce an aircraft---. The reason being to keep their fighter aircraft industry alive---.
> 
> They come up with a small functional fighter---that give the country local jobs---and keep the technicians and aircraft engineers employed---.
> 
> The Gripen is there just to give Nato the breathing room to get into position---so that the big boys can come and do the job.
> 
> It really shocks me to see how illiterate most of you kids and adults are in matters of defence---.
> 
> What shocks me more is that the learning disabilities that you people have---.
> 
> Which means most of you people are illiterate to history---you have no access to books and other reading material---you have no access to books written by NON PAKISTANIS.
> 
> When fan boys talk---they need to remember---the pilot in the SU30 or the M2K has been flying for a much longer time in that bird.
> 
> And what did Gen. Chuck Yegaer say---" A better pilot is a more experienced pilot ".
> 
> In the history of warfare---larger numbers of heavy armor have always defeated lighter armor---.



I totally diagree with the last part of heavy armor Panzars like tiger and panther were out matched by weaker shermans and T-34s in WWII although they much more superior than their opponents in firepower and armor especially the tigers with massive armored and having the deadly 88s.

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## MastanKhan

umair86pk said:


> I totally diagree with the last part of heavy armor Panzars like tiger and panther were out matched by weaker shermans and T-34s in WWII although they much more superior than their opponents in firepower and armor especially the tigers with massive armored and having the deadly 88s.



Hi,

I was waiting for this STUPID reply by one of my pakistani colleagues----. The suppy line for the sherman tanks started from the factory in the US and contd thru the ocean surface across the atlantic.

So, just don't look at one sherman tank against one panther or tiger----. Look and UNDERSTAND the overall scenario

Also you can train a tank crew in days---30 days---. For a fighter pilot of substance in today's aircraft---5-8 years flying.

http://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/m4-sherman-vs-german-panther/

Americans produced around 50000 sherman tanks---yes---fifty thousand agaimst 6000 panthers----plus the allied forces had full time air support---.

Read the link---there are million more links from where this came from---there is a reason that I call you kids ILLITERATE---because you don't use your brains to think---you think with your feet---.

But again it is not as simple as that---the americans have changed the threshold level again---. Its current tank can out shoot an enemy tank by staying a 1000 yards away from the range of the enemy tank's---and even if it was within 2000 yards of enemy tank---a frontal attack would be useless.

So---in the 80's 500 heavy american tanks with gunship helicopters and anti tank missiles were there to take on 3000 russian tanks on the european front.

You---neither have the air space and neither you have aircraft that can fly deep---.



ziaulislam said:


> we should learn from other countries, no country spend so much on defence when its own people are so poor, we dont have luxury of spending what we already are, otherwise we will remian poor and uneducated for ever and which would ultimately be our undoing, not being conquered by india




Hi,

Really----you have not read @war&peace comments regarding that----. Did you know that when Prophet Muhammad passed away---there was not even a piece of bread in his house---but there were supposedly 9 swords hanging on the walls of his room--- Golda Meir.

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## war&peace

ziaulislam said:


> no disrespect, you do sweet talk and i cannot compete with you on that but none of your claims are backed by facts, you simply mock other people and do sophisticated talk...
> 
> more pressing issues than buying billion of dollars of plans are people dying of share hunger in pakistan
> 
> i dont think this would matter as facts dont count but FYI, no one was there to protect Poland or Ukraine in modern times..
> Sweden WAS NOT PART OF NATO otherwise they would have gone for f-16s
> we should learn from other countries, no country spend so much on defence when its own people are so poor, we dont have luxury of spending what we already are, otherwise we will remian poor and uneducated for ever and which would ultimately be our undoing, not being conquered by india


Bro @MastanKhan already pointed out from the example of Golda Meir (Israeli PM who signed an expensive arms deal with USA when Israeli economy was in shambles)
I give some examples from recent history. Just take the example of pre-Iraqi Invasion of Kuwait. It was one of the richest countries in the world...a small population sitting on an immense reservoir of oil...so they were filthy rich and arrogant SOBs (which they still are for most part)...But they some how did not invest in good defence systems and so they were like a sumptuous meal surrounded by hungry dogs like Iraq thus they were overrun by Iraq in mattes of days...Had they invested in good defence systems and established institutions, Iraq won't had fancied its chances and perhaps today the whole middle east situation might have been different.
Similarly, any country that overlooked its defence needs has been run down by another nation or proxies. That is why the concept of Jihad is so important in Islam...to defend yourself from enemies is your religious duty....Don't fall a prey to western propaganda of peaceful development and human development index etc....They have heavily invested in their defences along with human development...they sell you these concepts of peace and human development while they themselves develop the WMDs and there is nothing stopping to their madness.

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## MastanKhan

war&peace said:


> Bro @MastanKhan already pointed out from the example of Golda Meir (Israeli PM who signed an expensive arms deal with USA when Israeli economy was in shambles)
> I give some examples from recent history. Just take the example of pre-Iraqi Invasion of Kuwait. It was one of the richest countries in the world...a small population sitting on an immense reservoir of oil...so they were filthy rich and arrogant SOBs (which they still for most part)...and they some how did not invest in good defence system and so there were like a sumptuous meal surrounded by hungry people like Iraq thus they were overrun by Iraq in mattes of days...Had they invested in good defence systems and established institutions, Iraq won't had fancied its chances and perhaps today the whole middle east situation might have been different.
> Similarly, any country that overlooked its defence needs has been run down by another nation or proxies. That is why the concept of Jihad is so important in Islam...to defend yourself from enemies is your religious duty....Don't fall a prey to western propaganda of peaceful development and human development index etc....They have heavily invested in their defences along with human development...they sell you these concepts of peace and human development while they themselves develop the WMDs and there is nothing stopping to their madness.



Hi,

That is what makes me wonder---what kind of muslims these pakistani kids are---or what is their ethnic background---.

And then to top it off---their belief that their inferior item will overshadow and annihilate the enemy's superior product---what DUMB WORLD do these guys live in.

There is no peace unless you are strong---. Year 2002---2005 is in front of you guys---. When the weapons were made open and available and you had funds to get them---your enemy wanted to be your permanent friend---.

But the moment the fools in the air force donated the money for weapons---the enemy changed their stance and showed their real face---which was obvious to everyone but to the Paf.

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## war&peace

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is what makes me wonder---what kind of muslims these pakistani kids are---or what is their ethnic background---.
> 
> And then to top it off---their belief that their inferior item will overshadow and annihilate the enemy's superior product---what DUMB WORLD do these guys live in.
> 
> There is no peace unless you are strong---. Year 2002---2005 is in front of you guys---. When the weapons were made open and available and you had funds to get them---your enemy wanted to be your permanent friend---.
> 
> But the moment the fools in the air force donated the money for weapons---the enemy changed their stance and showed their real face---which was obvious to everyone but to the Paf.



Sir this happens when people start to act like fools and start believing in what the western media tells them. The more I look at this world, the more I get convinced that might is right.....everything else is a Mega BS. It was true in the Alexander the great's times and it is very much true today and will stay the true till the end of this world. That's why Islam being a pragmatic religion, recognises this fact and wants its followers to be prepared to defend themselves and do it fearlessly but unfortunately we have some "men" who would rather like to wear bangles and perform classical dance than taking up some balls and acting manly. In just a few decades we have seen so many countries destroyed and maps changed (Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Yemen) and most of that is happening very close to us. To the people who illogically and unrealistically talk about being peaceful and spending less on defence are basically the enemies of the nation. The least is to ignore them and the best is to throw into Arabian sea.

However I can see things getting positive for Pakistan in near future. PAF is redeeming itself slowly but I can assure you, they will get their past glory rather surpass it as I can feel the change in their attitudes.
US tilt towards India has happened for a reason. I believe that PAF will induct Russian airplanes and we can say some divine intervention is at work as Pakistan and Russia are getting close to each other as USA and India are moving closer. USA needs a scapegoat / proxy against China since it can't fight directly as latter has it by balls ( 2 trillions dollar of bonds are enough to bring uncle to his knees any time) so India is the best bet uncle sam can get and he is desperate to get India on his side against China. He is offering mouth watering deals of shifting F-16 production line to India. That may even leave France bruised and butt-hurt by Indians again as they see more benefits coming from USA. Now I'm quite sure that these Scorpene leak is job of CIA  ... thus France and India will move apart from each other. That will open France again to Pakistan but the latter has no intention of going to them especially if Russia offers a good deal to Pakistan on Su-35 (and even Su-37) as now officials of Pakistan / PAF and Russia have started to confirm about the discussion regarding Russian airplanes and defence systems. That puts Pakistan in a very good position to negotiate a deal with west especially France for JF-17 and maybe for a limited number of Rafale. While India and USA are cornering China so much so on SCS that it will seek help from two of its friends in the region i.e. Russia and Pakistan. Russia has no intention of bending to USA and it has shown remarkable resilience under Putin and Uncle Sam is shocked but can’t do much against it.

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## ziaulislam

war&peace said:


> Bro @MastanKhan already pointed out from the example of Golda Meir (Israeli PM who signed an expensive arms deal with USA when Israeli economy was in shambles)
> I give some examples from recent history. Just take the example of pre-Iraqi Invasion of Kuwait. It was one of the richest countries in the world...a small population sitting on an immense reservoir of oil...so they were filthy rich and arrogant SOBs (which they still are for most part)...But they some how did not invest in good defence systems and so they were like a sumptuous meal surrounded by hungry dogs like Iraq thus they were overrun by Iraq in mattes of days...Had they invested in good defence systems and established institutions, Iraq won't had fancied its chances and perhaps today the whole middle east situation might have been different.
> Similarly, any country that overlooked its defence needs has been run down by another nation or proxies. That is why the concept of Jihad is so important in Islam...to defend yourself from enemies is your religious duty....Don't fall a prey to western propaganda of peaceful development and human development index etc....They have heavily invested in their defences along with human development...they sell you these concepts of peace and human development while they themselves develop the WMDs and there is nothing stopping to their madness.



nobody has the right to judge the poor if they haven't passed through your self..there is difference between poor economy and people literally dying of hunger and disease

no one is against weapons, point is focus should be indigenous weapons rather than buying expensive foreign toys


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## war&peace

ziaulislam said:


> nobody has the right to judge the poor if they haven't passed through your self..there is difference between poor economy and people literally dying of hunger and disease
> 
> no one is against weapons, point is focus should be indigenous weapons rather than buying expensive foreign toys


But that poverty is not caused by the defence budget because it is taken care of by the govt...The poverty is caused by the extreme corruption at the highest level, mismanagement of the fund and embezzlement, spending on name plate projects like metros and especially at a price multiple times of the original estimates...Did you ever think why the cost of any project in Punjab and centre is far more than any comparable project in our neighbouring countries....also the indirect taxation that makes the rich and poor pay the equal amount of taxes thus making a poor poorer and a rich richer .. dysfunctional system of baital maal where the big bellied and big bearded (like the lost eggs of dinosaurs) robbers rob it in the name of religion and deserving are left with broken peanuts only....so basically you are barking at the wrong tree (this is a figure of speech).

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## ziaulislam

war&peace said:


> But that poverty is not caused by the defence budget because it is take care of by the govt...The poverty is caused by the extreme corruption at the highest level, mismanagement of the fund and embezzlement, spending on name plate projects like metros and especially at a price multiple times of the original estimates...Did you ever think why the cost of any project in Punjab and centre is far more than any comparable project in our neighbouring countries....also the indirect taxation that makes the rich and poor pay the equal amount of taxes thus making a poor poorer and a rich richer .. dysfunctional system of baital maal where the big bellied and big bearded (like the lost eggs of dinosaurs) robbers rob it in the name of religion and deserving are left with broken peanuts only....so basically you are barking at the wrong tree (this is a figure of speech).



embezzlement happen in every sector INCULDING DEFENCE, do you mean to tell me that pakistan is not one of highest spending countries in defence..do you care to see how GDP spending in defence, it is one of the highest in the world 
while when it comes to health and education we are not even in top 100, even poorest countries in africa are doing better


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## Incog_nito

Is there any chance that PAF might get used F-16s Block-15 with upgrade kits from:
US: remaining 12 F-16s
USAF: old F-16s Block-15
Venuezvella: old F-16s Block-15

Jordanian F-16s Block-15 are coming for sure... But what about others.


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## Windjammer

PAF demonstrated it's ability to scramble against an intrusion in three minutes instead of the usual six minute window.

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> PAF demonstrated it's ability to scramble against an intrusion in three minutes instead of the usual six minute window.



This basically looks at certain critical steps they could process prior to alert status(and hope nothing effects those) to basically letting certain steps complete after takeoff.

What the PAF should do and probably wont think of is to take a pit crew optimization for its maintenance staff as a hospital in the UK did.
After all, if a hospital which much more varied situations can do it; a flight crew with standardized practices should have no issue.
_Pit-stops during Formula One or NASCAR races are one the most time crucial situations in any field. A matter of seconds can determine whether a team succeeds or fails, and is similar to the stressful climate of a hospital’s emergency room. Doctors realized that time is vital for both ER staff and motor-racing pit-crews, and this in turn motivated hospitals to change the way things are currently being done.

Pit-crews are perfectly synchronized with each member and their tools, and move about the car in well organized and rehearsed patterns. Of course it’s difficult to practice in the ER, as everyday has the potential to be completely different to the previous, but still there’s much to be gained. According to Italian newspaper Il Giornale, a doctor at a hospital in the UK was inspired after watching an F1 race on TV when he recognized the number of similarities between the routines of the pit-crew and staff in the ER.

The doctor went so far as to contact Ferrari to learn about how the hospital staff could improve the process. People from Ferrari filmed the doctors at work and then analyzed the videos to see what steps could be taken to improve timing and coordination. Ferrari gave suggestions on staff training, temperament, synchronization and time-management, which has now been implemented in many hospitals across the UK._
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1029244_doctors-imitate-pit-crew-in-er[/QUOTE]

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## Windjammer

Oscar said:


> This basically looks at certain critical steps they could process prior to alert status(and hope nothing effects those) to basically letting certain steps complete after takeoff.
> 
> What the PAF should do and probably wont think of is to take a pit crew optimization for its maintenance staff as a hospital in the UK did.
> After all, if a hospital which much more varied situations can do it; a flight crew with standardized practices should have no issue.
> _Pit-stops during Formula One or NASCAR races are one the most time crucial situations in any field. A matter of seconds can determine whether a team succeeds or fails, and is similar to the stressful climate of a hospital’s emergency room. Doctors realized that time is vital for both ER staff and motor-racing pit-crews, and this in turn motivated hospitals to change the way things are currently being done.
> 
> Pit-crews are perfectly synchronized with each member and their tools, and move about the car in well organized and rehearsed patterns. Of course it’s difficult to practice in the ER, as everyday has the potential to be completely different to the previous, but still there’s much to be gained. According to Italian newspaper Il Giornale, a doctor at a hospital in the UK was inspired after watching an F1 race on TV when he recognized the number of similarities between the routines of the pit-crew and staff in the ER.
> 
> The doctor went so far as to contact Ferrari to learn about how the hospital staff could improve the process. People from Ferrari filmed the doctors at work and then analyzed the videos to see what steps could be taken to improve timing and coordination. Ferrari gave suggestions on staff training, temperament, synchronization and time-management, which has now been implemented in many hospitals across the UK._
> http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1029244_doctors-imitate-pit-crew-in-er



I think this works well when you have a set of crew synchronised with one particular machine who are on standby due to an expected pit stop or an emergency case arriving. We saw something like this at Falcon meet in Jordan.... none the less it's a very good practice to be repeatedly rehearsed so when emergency rises, every one moves like a well oiled machine.

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## MastanKhan

Enjoy the read and video.







http://mashable.com/2016/09/13/f16-autopilot-saves-unconscious-pilot/#8EX8XPacAPqw

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oxair Online said:


> Is there any chance that PAF might get used F-16s Block-15 with upgrade kits from:
> US: remaining 12 F-16s
> USAF: old F-16s Block-15
> Venuezvella: old F-16s Block-15
> 
> Jordanian F-16s Block-15 are coming for sure... But what about others.


Depends on the condition of existing surplus and mothballed stocks. The PAF will pursue the planes that have sufficient airframe hours left in them where it can.

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## Windjammer

A closeup of the former Jordanian F-16 now in PAF service, the fairing at the base of tail is not common in other F-16s and reportedly holds some exclusive gadgets,

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## khanasifm

Suspect /assume the latest discussion with turkey and LM may cover extending the life past 8k hours of aircraft basically developing an upgrade package which can be utilized when needed


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## Falcon26

Oxair Online said:


> Is there any chance that PAF might get used F-16s Block-15 with upgrade kits from:
> US: remaining 12 F-16s
> USAF: old F-16s Block-15
> Venuezvella: old F-16s Block-15
> 
> Jordanian F-16s Block-15 are coming for sure... But what about others.



Speaking of chances, what's the probability of Pakistan taking possession of some Turkish F-16s in exchange for Pakistan joining the TFX program? This will allow Pakistan to bypass the US Congress and the White House is likely to approve such transfer as they have approved the Jordanian purchases as previously. 

Recently Pakistan awarded Turkey the contract to upgrade the Agosta-class submarines and is testing Turkish attack helicopters, in exchange Turkey agreed to buy Pakistani made Super Mushak trainer aircrafts. Could this work in the case of an F-16 exchange considering Turkey has hundreds of F-16s at its disposal, not to mention, they come pre-integrated with SOM Cruise Missiles, something that should interest Pakistan.

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## TOPGUN

Falcon26 said:


> Speaking of chances, what's the probability of Pakistan taking possession of some Turkish F-16s in exchange for Pakistan joining the TFX program? This will allow Pakistan to bypass the US Congress and the White House is likely to approve such transfer as they have approved the Jordanian purchases as previously.
> 
> Recently Pakistan awarded Turkey the contract to upgrade the Agosta-class submarines and is testing Turkish attack helicopters, in exchange Turkey agreed to buy Pakistani made Super Mushak trainer aircrafts. Could this work in the case of an F-16 exchange considering Turkey has hundreds of F-16s at its disposal, not to mention, they come pre-integrated with SOM Cruise Missiles, something that should interest Pakistan.




Even for that idea to take place Both PAF & TUAF need United States approval simply , nothing moves or speaks without daddy's permission.

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## Dazzler

blk 52 simulator made by PAC

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## Incog_nito

Falcon26 said:


> Speaking of chances, what's the probability of Pakistan taking possession of some Turkish F-16s in exchange for Pakistan joining the TFX program? This will allow Pakistan to bypass the US Congress and the White House is likely to approve such transfer as they have approved the Jordanian purchases as previously.
> 
> Recently Pakistan awarded Turkey the contract to upgrade the Agosta-class submarines and is testing Turkish attack helicopters, in exchange Turkey agreed to buy Pakistani made Super Mushak trainer aircrafts. Could this work in the case of an F-16 exchange considering Turkey has hundreds of F-16s at its disposal, not to mention, they come pre-integrated with SOM Cruise Missiles, something that should interest Pakistan.



PAF is only interested in buying JAF F-16s and I never heard that Turkey have F-16s for Disposal!!!


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> Speaking of chances, what's the probability of Pakistan taking possession of some Turkish F-16s in exchange for Pakistan joining the TFX program? This will allow Pakistan to bypass the US Congress and the White House is likely to approve such transfer as they have approved the Jordanian purchases as previously.
> 
> Recently Pakistan awarded Turkey the contract to upgrade the Agosta-class submarines and is testing Turkish attack helicopters, in exchange Turkey agreed to buy Pakistani made Super Mushak trainer aircrafts. Could this work in the case of an F-16 exchange considering Turkey has hundreds of F-16s at its disposal, not to mention, they come pre-integrated with SOM Cruise Missiles, something that should interest Pakistan.


That's not a bad idea, but while Turkey may be content with the arrangement (I guess after furloughing so many pilots they might have planes to at least lease), U.S. approval for American hardware is necessary. Might not be impossible to get considering it doesn't need to pass through Congress, I believe the Pentagon and State Dept. should be sufficient.

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## Dazzler

Windjammer said:


> A closeup of the former Jordanian F-16 now in PAF service, the fairing at the base of tail is not common in other F-16s and reportedly holds some exclusive gadgets,



Seriously man, they should give these birds a nice paintjob.


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## Raider 21



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## umair86pk

Where this video was all these years. Master pieace no 14 squadron


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## Raider 21

umair86pk said:


> Where this video was all these years. Master pieace no 14 squadron


Found it in the store of my house, it is basically on a VHS tape.


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## umair86pk

Gr8 find


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## krash

Knuckles said:


>



Any idea where these 6 were headed to with what I believe was the then standard A2A loadout?




umair86pk said:


> Where this video was all these years. Master pieace no 14 squadron



How'd you figure that they belonged to the Tail Choppers? What did I miss?

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## umair86pk

From tail serial numbers 728 was delivered in 1986 last A model to be delivered to PAF and the person strapping in the of viper looks like the than Wing Commander Abdur Razzaq who rose to the rank of AVM before his shahadat in Kohat incident.


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## Raider 21

umair86pk said:


> From tail serial numbers 728 was delivered in 1986 last A model to be delivered to PAF and the person strapping in the of viper looks like the than Wing Commander Abdur Razzaq who rose to the rank of AVM before his shahadat in Kohat incident.


The person strapping in is Sqn Ldr (at that time) Shahid Sikandar. Squadron commander in those days was Wg Cdr Muzaffar Ali. Wg Cdr Abdul Razzaq was the OC in the late 1980s.


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## khanasifm

F16 for sale JAF
Info


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## redgriffin

Windjammer said:


> A closeup of the former Jordanian F-16 now in PAF service, the fairing at the base of tail is not common in other F-16s and reportedly holds some exclusive gadgets,


Actually the fairing holds nothing more exclusive than flight control accumulators relocated here due to the relocation of the vipers' radio displaced courtesy the extra IFF equipment & flood light installation in the nose.

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## Basel

Windjammer said:


> Rare images of PAF F-16 firing AIM-120 AMRAAM BVR missile.



AMRAAM does not produce much smoke.


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## Raider 21

Basel said:


> AMRAAM does not produce much smoke.


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## Norge Stronk

Windjammer said:


> Rare images of PAF F-16 firing AIM-120 AMRAAM BVR missile.



PAF? That's a Danish Air Force roundel.

It's Red and White, not Green and White.

...

Here, the video that accompanies the pictures:






Those pictures, two separate events sutured together into a single frame, are of RDAF F-16s, not those belonging to the PAF.

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## Dazzler

Norge Stronk said:


> PAF? That's a Danish Air Force roundel.
> 
> It's Red and White, not Green and White.
> 
> ...
> 
> Here, the video that accompanies the pictures:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those pictures, two separate events sutured together into a single frame, are of RDAF F-16s, not those belonging to the PAF.



Damn you documentary makers:

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## Side-Winder



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## Sine Nomine

*F-16 Modular Mission Computer (MMC)*
_The Modular Mission Computer (MMC) provides airborne processing power that will allow the F-16 to execute mission requirements well into the 21st century._

A cost-effective mid-life update for the F-16, the MMC delivers enhanced computing power to the aircraft's avionics and weapon systems. As a member of Lockheed Martin's F-16 team, Raytheon developed a single high-performance system to replace the fighter jet's three original computers. The MMC's advanced features — and potential for expansion — enable the F-16 to meet present and future mission challenges.

For pilots, the MMC significantly improves situational awareness, air-to-air capabilities, targeting accuracy and information. Equipped with this powerful computer, the F-16 can take greater advantage of such growth technologies as helmet-mounted cueing systems, advanced weapons loads, reconnaissance pods and forward-looking infrared targeting and navigation systems.

The streamlined MMC is smaller, lighter and more efficient than its predecessor systems. Reducing weight by 55 percent, volume by 42 percent and power usage by 32 percent, the updated system is more reliable and less costly to maintain. Its modular design allows two-level maintenance (i.e., flight-line replacement of line replaceable modules), eliminating the need to remove and replace the entire computer. Mean time between failure exceeds 1245 hours.

With more than 1,600 shipsets either delivered or on order, the MMC enjoys a worldwide clientele. Customers include the U.S. Air Force and numerous international governments, including Belgium, Chile, Denmark, Greece, the Netherlands, Norway, Oman, Poland, Portugal, Taiwan and Turkey.

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## Cool_Soldier

Any update about purchase of further F 16 Jordan?


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## Raider 21

krash said:


> Any idea where these 6 were headed to with what I believe was the then standard A2A loadout?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How'd you figure that they belonged to the Tail Choppers? What did I miss?


Oh as for the loadout I am not sure but I do know that they went for a flypast rehearsal to Islamabad...

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## nomi007



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## khanasifm

Each CFT carries 450 US Gallons, that a lot of Gas
*Ferry range:* 2,280 nmi (2,620 mi, 4,220 km) vs Su30 *Ferry range:* 4,500 km (2,430 nmi) with external fuel tanks


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## Bratva



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## Windjammer

It's often rare to see GIBS supporting the JHMCS.

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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> It's often rare to see GIBS supporting the JHMCS.
> 
> Who is busy taking his self-EEE


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## Imran Khan

jhaza ka cleander hi wo driver apna kam kar raha hai

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## araz

Imran Khan said:


> jhaza ka cleander hi wo driver apna kam kar raha hai


You mean to say ustadh and chota.

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## Imran Khan

araz said:


> You mean to say ustadh and chota.


yes exactly sir

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## Hassan Guy

they should order the block 70


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## Hassan Guy

Super Viper


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## Windjammer




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## Sinnerman108

@Oscar looks like blade chassis !

Operationally is it any different ? @gambit


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## SQ8

Sinnerman108 said:


> @Oscar looks like blade chassis !
> 
> Operationally is it any different ? @gambit


Not sure of the context......


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## Super Falcon

PAF should understand clearly that F 16 love affair is over since Lockhead Martin decided to build future block of F 16 in India

If Pakistan purchases F 16 in 2021 it will be manufactured in India so I doubt it's reliablity

Pakistan Airforce already weaker in number and in quality and what is left 30 percent of its current fleet is modern rest is either block 15 F 16 and old mirages around 70 odd

We are upgrading our F 16 to MLU but my serious concerns are how much airframe strength left on them which cannot be upgraded in any means so they are still old no matter how good upgrades they have

If we count out of 75 only 30 odd F 16 are modern

Rest JF 17 Program is also slow PAF not using its funds sensibly instead of block 2 upgrades which are going on in mater if 2 years we will upgrade them again to block 3 better we should upgrade these thunders to block 3 once it for all so we save time and money

PAF seriously short on ideas they can't just put sand in our eyes

Indian airforce after Rafale going to launch a tender for single engine jet may be F 16 blk 70 or gripen are front runner 

Guys just imagine Rafale + F 16blk 70 + MIG 29k + SU 30 MKI+ Mirage 2000

our PAF as it's mercy 

PAF is well short of 100 latest aircrafts
Given the enemy strength

We need SU 35 or EF 2000 right now 
And gripen if india. Don't pick it

Why gripen because PAF had a goal of getting 100 F 16 SAAB GRIPEN single engine with AESA is we get 30 odd it will bring 105 number along with F 16 

Gripen brings whole lot more versatile weaponry like matador IRIS-T and storm shadow missiles and data link between gripen to gripen and our SAAB AWACS will act far greater with these beauties 

Gripen are ready to transfer the technology to anyone so no concern israel blocks it etc

We can put Renault engine in them too and now they are using similar engine of F 16 on gripen

If india don't buy it sweeeds definitely sell us. 

SU 35 or EF 2000 one if them can be used as air superiority jet

F 16 75
Jf 17 150
Gripen. 50
SU 35. 50 

will do wonders for PAF

I know it's easier said than done you required billions but you pay them yearly basis we can manage if we management the funds

12 billions approx required these 12 billions serve us well untill 2040


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## Silicon0000

Another wish list thread


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## Michael Corleone

see pakistan wont buy anything from india... case closed. the reliability comes second because i am sure lockheed martin will train its crew before employing them... the only concern will be if indian workers will work with their heart to make planes for pakistan or not...

expect a step closer to russian or european options... yall have no other choice. oh yeah if anyone says china... they themselves are having issues

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## RiazHaq

Super Falcon said:


> PAF should understand clearly that F 16 love affair is over since Lockhead Martin decided to build future block of F 16 in India
> 
> If Pakistan purchases F 16 in 2021 it will be manufactured in India so I doubt it's reliablity
> 
> Pakistan Airforce already weaker in number and in quality and what is left 30 percent of its current fleet is modern rest is either block 15 F 16 and old mirages around 70 odd
> 
> We are upgrading our F 16 to MLU but my serious concerns are how much airframe strength left on them which cannot be upgraded in any means so they are still old no matter how good upgrades they have
> 
> If we count out of 75 only 30 odd F 16 are modern
> 
> Rest JF 17 Program is also slow PAF not using its funds sensibly instead of block 2 upgrades which are going on in mater if 2 years we will upgrade them again to block 3 better we should upgrade these thunders to block 3 once it for all so we save time and money
> 
> PAF seriously short on ideas they can't just put sand in our eyes
> 
> Indian airforce after Rafale going to launch a tender for single engine jet may be F 16 blk 70 or gripen are front runner
> 
> Guys just imagine Rafale + F 16blk 70 + MIG 29k + SU 30 MKI+ Mirage 2000
> 
> our PAF as it's mercy
> 
> PAF is well short of 100 latest aircrafts
> Given the enemy strength
> 
> We need SU 35 or EF 2000 right now
> And gripen if india. Don't pick it
> 
> Why gripen because PAF had a goal of getting 100 F 16 SAAB GRIPEN single engine with AESA is we get 30 odd it will bring 105 number along with F 16
> 
> Gripen brings whole lot more versatile weaponry like matador IRIS-T and storm shadow missiles and data link between gripen to gripen and our SAAB AWACS will act far greater with these beauties
> 
> Gripen are ready to transfer the technology to anyone so no concern israel blocks it etc
> 
> We can put Renault engine in them too and now they are using similar engine of F 16 on gripen
> 
> If india don't buy it sweeeds definitely sell us.
> 
> SU 35 or EF 2000 one if them can be used as air superiority jet
> 
> F 16 75
> Jf 17 150
> Gripen. 50
> SU 35. 50
> 
> will do wonders for PAF
> 
> I know it's easier said than done you required billions but you pay them yearly basis we can manage if we management the funds
> 
> 12 billions approx required these 12 billions serve us well untill 2040




It's Indians pipe dream. They have little capability for manufacturing something as complex as an F-16. 


Heck, they can't even maintain the Su-30s in serviceable condition, nor can they build many Tejas for any serious deployment.

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## cloud4000

Super Falcon said:


> PAF should understand clearly that F 16 love affair is over since Lockhead Martin decided to build future block of F 16 in India
> 
> If Pakistan purchases F 16 in 2021 it will be manufactured in India so I doubt it's reliablity
> 
> Pakistan Airforce already weaker in number and in quality and what is left 30 percent of its current fleet is modern rest is either block 15 F 16 and old mirages around 70 odd
> 
> We are upgrading our F 16 to MLU but my serious concerns are how much airframe strength left on them which cannot be upgraded in any means so they are still old no matter how good upgrades they have
> 
> If we count out of 75 only 30 odd F 16 are modern
> 
> Rest JF 17 Program is also slow PAF not using its funds sensibly instead of block 2 upgrades which are going on in mater if 2 years we will upgrade them again to block 3 better we should upgrade these thunders to block 3 once it for all so we save time and money
> 
> PAF seriously short on ideas they can't just put sand in our eyes
> 
> Indian airforce after Rafale going to launch a tender for single engine jet may be F 16 blk 70 or gripen are front runner
> 
> Guys just imagine Rafale + F 16blk 70 + MIG 29k + SU 30 MKI+ Mirage 2000
> 
> our PAF as it's mercy
> 
> PAF is well short of 100 latest aircrafts
> Given the enemy strength
> 
> We need SU 35 or EF 2000 right now
> And gripen if india. Don't pick it
> 
> Why gripen because PAF had a goal of getting 100 F 16 SAAB GRIPEN single engine with AESA is we get 30 odd it will bring 105 number along with F 16
> 
> Gripen brings whole lot more versatile weaponry like matador IRIS-T and storm shadow missiles and data link between gripen to gripen and our SAAB AWACS will act far greater with these beauties
> 
> Gripen are ready to transfer the technology to anyone so no concern israel blocks it etc
> 
> We can put Renault engine in them too and now they are using similar engine of F 16 on gripen
> 
> If india don't buy it sweeeds definitely sell us.
> 
> SU 35 or EF 2000 one if them can be used as air superiority jet
> 
> F 16 75
> Jf 17 150
> Gripen. 50
> SU 35. 50
> 
> will do wonders for PAF
> 
> I know it's easier said than done you required billions but you pay them yearly basis we can manage if we management the funds
> 
> 12 billions approx required these 12 billions serve us well untill 2040



LM's F-16 deal with India is an exlusive one, meant for India only. Pakistan can acquire and maintain its F-16s either directly with LM or Turkey without dealing with India. So there should be issue regarding Pakistan F-16s.



RiazHaq said:


> It's Indians pipe dream. They have little capability for manufacturing something as complex as an F-16.
> 
> 
> Heck, they can't even maintain the Su-30s in serviceable condition, nor can they build many Tejas for any serious deployment.



Keep thinking this way. You've been proven wrong before and you'll be proven wrong again.


----------



## خره مينه لګته وي

*Sweden Not to Sell Gripen Fighter Planes to Pakistan*

“There is no question of selling them weapons or anything directly related to weapons,” Swedish Foreign Minister Laila Freivalds said after her talks with visiting Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf in Stockholm yesterday. 

Before his talks with Freivalds, Musharraf, who is currently on a tour of Scandinavian countries, said that Pakistan might be interested in purchasing JAS Gripen fighter planes from Sweden. “Pakistan is looking for a high-tech aircraft. Gripen is one of several alternatives,” he was quoted as saying by Swedish newswire TT. 

*Freivalds*, however, said Sweden would not be considering the sale of any weapons or weapon-related equipment to Pakistan, media reports here said.....She also said the Swedish government has yet to decide whether to sell Erieye radars, which was sought to be purchased by Pakistan for its Air Force. She said a decision has to be made whether the radar came under the category of weapon. “We have yet to reach that stage,” she said. 
*
Year --> 2004*

*Other Members can correct me if i'm wrong...
_____________________________________________________________
Along with the F-16, the PAF does eye SU-35, F-35 and F-22 Raptor besides some J series Chinese fifth-generation fighter jets. During the period of US sanctions, Pakistan eagerly pursued purchase of French Mirage 2000 and Swedish JAS 39 Gripen. The deal with the French could not go through mainly due to the high price tag while Sweden succumbed to US pressure. --- > Express Tribune*


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## GumNaam

The only reason we go for F16s now is because they are practically free. Even the F16s that the indian is misrepresenting as having blocked weren't actually blocked. They were willing to give it to us provided we payed for it. Well why should we pay for an F16 when we can produce 3 JF17s that is 90% as capable as the F16 for the price of one. Let's face it, we do not need the F16s any more. We are now shopping for 5th generation fighters and 5th generation the F16 IS NOT!


----------



## خره مينه لګته وي

*Pakistan Air Force: Options And Challenges – OpEd*






_*Pakistan Air Force (PAF) F-16s. U.S. Air Force photo by Lawrence Crespo, Wikipedia Commons.*_

In today’s world, air supremacy plays a vital role in achieving Military Objectives. The Pakistan Military has always been mindful of its meager resources and preferred quality over quantity.

The Pakistan Air Force is considered one of the best in the world due to its qualitative selection and professional excellence. The maintenance of this equilibrium depends on the continuous upgrading of its fleet.

The Pakistan Air Force currently operates a fighter force comprising F-16s, Dassault Mirage IIIs and 5s, Chengdu F-7s, and JF-17s. F-16s, with their tactical nuclear delivery capabilities, play a particularly important role for Pakistan in bolstering its conventional abilities against India. The Indian lobby is trying to isolate Pakistan within Washington’s power corridors, which may jeopardize the sale of more F16 to Pakistan. If so, Pakistan should seek to purchase Sukhoi Su-35 fighter jets that are far more advanced than the F-16s. The Russian-made jets could be a great asset for Pakistan Air Force.

The general comparison between the Russia’s Su-35 Fighter and America’s F-16 Fighting Falcon shows that with properly trained pilots and support from ground controllers or AWACs, the Su-35 is an extremely formidable threat to Western Aircraft.

Over the years, the F-16 has evolved from a lightweight visual range dogfighter into a potent multi-role warplane that flies a gamut of missions ranging from the suppression of enemy air defences to air superiority. Though it has been operational since 1980, the “Falcon” continues to evolve and will remain in service with the US Air Force and other militaries for decades to come.

But while the F-16 remains a potent fighter, potential adversaries have caught up—the latest Russian aircraft like the Sukhoi Su-35 can match or exceed the Falcon in many respects. The F-16 doesn’t have the latest upgraded massive active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar nor can the F-16 usually lob the AIM-120 missile from high speeds and altitudes.

The US Air Force F-16s are not currently fitted with an AESA and are at a severe disadvantage versus the Su-35 or other advanced Flanker derivatives. With an AESA, the F-16 could probably hold its own against the Su-35 at longer ranges—but it would still be a challenge. At shorter ranges, it comes down to pilot skill and the performance of each jet’s high off-boresight missiles. The advent of missiles like the R-73 and AIM-9Xhave turned visual range fights into mutually assured destruction scenarios.

While the Su-35’s thrust vectoring gives it an edge at very low speeds, it’s not an insurmountable problem for an expert F-16 pilot—who knows how to exploit his or her aircraft to the fullest—to overcome. The bottom line is that the Su-35 is an extremely capable aircraft. With regard to the F-16s or Su-35s, the matter of Pakistan of adding additional fighters to its current fleet might come down to mundane matters of what is financially feasible.

Currently, the Indian Air force (IAF) is far larger with about 740 combat aircraft versus the Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) approximate 400 aircraft, but everything is not as it seems.

What at first glance seems overwhelming odds against the PAF on closer examination does not seem as overwhelming. For instance, the IAF has far lower serviceability of its aircraft. Their pilot training as evidenced by Red Flag exercises with the US is also not yet up to par with the PAF and their maintenance crews are not as diligent. Their present Russian/Soviet technology is generally less reliable and less effective and a large part of their fleet of MiG-21s and MiG-27s are outdated.

PAF aircraft are either of Western stock or Chinese and are far more maintenance friendly. Pakistan has also been upgrading their aircraft massively and have incorporated a complex combination of technology from across the globe – from China to Brazil, from South Africa to the US. PAF pilot training is on par with the best in the world and its maintenance crews are trained on the level of Western maintenance crews.

The large number of IAF crashes because of low level of maintenance crew is indicative of this acute problem with one of the highest crash rates among Air Forces of the world. What compounds this problem is the age of large sections of the Indian fleet, which has large numbers of MiG-21s and MiG-27s that are, besides the Bisons, highly outdated and are sometimes referred to as “Flying Coffins” by their pilots.

Pakistan, on the other hand has a better pilot-to-aircaft ratio than the IAF — meaning it could sustain a greater sortie rate over a protracted conflict. PAF aircraft are also “pimped” in that they have been extensively modified. Thus, while on paper PAF is flying ancient Mirages that were bought second-hand from the Australians, when one actually examines any such model, one is surprised at how extensively they have been rebuilt – almost from scratch and the hardware is extremely lethal.

Other than the secretive BVR AAMs, the PAF has extensively incorporated the strike element into its Mirages, at a level only matched by the IAF’s Mirage-2000s and Su-30 FLANKERs, and even then some of the equipment has no IAF equivalent.

Pakistan should continue its policy of quality over quantity as it is the only way to keep an equilibrium in its hostile environment and to secure the nation’s existence. Additionally, Pakistan should keep all options open as sovereignty and independence comes first, rather than becoming affiliated to a particular group or alliance.
*
*Saima Ali works for Strategic Vision Institute and can be reached at saima@thesvi.org*

Artle written abt 2 months ago...


eurasiareview


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## Water Car Engineer

RiazHaq said:


> It's Indians pipe dream. They have little capability for manufacturing something as complex as an F-16.



You're going to be really butt hurt. At this moment the MKIs are being produce by it's own raw materials.


----------



## خره مينه لګته وي

cloud4000 said:


> Keep thinking this way. You've been proven wrong before and you'll be proven wrong again.


proven wrong with Tejas ?? 



Water Car Engineer said:


> You're going to be really butt hurt. At this moment the MKIs are being produce by it's own raw materials.


whatever he said its true, you can't prove him wrong either


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## Water Car Engineer

Fawad Masīd said:


> proven wrong with Tejas ??




In production, the third one was just handed over to IAF.



Fawad Masīd said:


> whatever he said its true, you can't prove him wrong either



Are you guys totally clueless as to what's happening? Dude, TATA will be raising a assembly, testing plant for Airbus's C295, it'll be the preferred partner for F16IN as well. TATA is producing modules for several OEM. Boeing Apache Block 3's fuselage will eventually only be sourced from a TATA plant in India.


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## C130

RiazHaq said:


> It's Indians pipe dream. They have little capability for manufacturing something as complex as an F-16.
> 
> 
> Heck, they can't even maintain the Su-30s in serviceable condition, nor can they build many Tejas for any serious deployment.




tbh it's not complicated to build the F-16 at least not the frame and some sub-sytems. the most complex parts of any fighter are the radar and engine and these will be built in the U.S

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## خره مينه لګته وي

C130 said:


> tbh it's not complicated to build the F-16 at least not the frame and some sub-sytems. the most complex parts of any fighter are the radar and engine and these will be built in the U.S


that's what he meant to say, it's obvious that f-16 is of use without engine,avionics, frame etc


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## Super Falcon

RiazHaq said:


> It's Indians pipe dream. They have little capability for manufacturing something as complex as an F-16.
> 
> 
> Heck, they can't even maintain the Su-30s in serviceable condition, nor can they build many Tejas for any serious deployment.


Dear I checked Lockhead Martin moving it's F 16 assembly to india


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

@Oscar I actually believe there is a possible gap period (in terms capability deficiency) looming in the late 2010s and early 2020s. The Block-III is not a factor yet as PAC is still in the heart of Block-II, and F-16 factor is nil at this time. Do you expect the PAF to pull the J-10 back to the table? The Chinese haven't cleared it for export, but the AESA equipped J-10C could be a viable bridge for 2019-2023 to pave for the JF-17 Block-III.

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## mingle

Mohammed Khaled said:


> see pakistan wont buy anything from india... case closed. the reliability comes second because i am sure lockheed martin will train its crew before employing them... the only concern will be if indian workers will work with their heart to make planes for pakistan or not...
> 
> expect a step closer to russian or european options... yall have no other choice. oh yeah if anyone says china... they themselves are having issues


It wont happen overnite moving plant to india and assemble a plane my take is looking 8 to 10 yrs pretty much time when PAF will looking to replace MLU F16s .


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## araz

RiazHaq said:


> It's Indians pipe dream. They have little capability for manufacturing something as complex as an F-16.
> 
> 
> Heck, they can't even maintain the Su-30s in serviceable condition, nor can they build many Tejas for any serious deployment.


This is false and even dangerous thinking. The agreement if it occurs will be between the Indian private companies and LM. I would not underestimate the Indian privte sector and it would be perilous to do so.
A


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## GURU DUTT

RiazHaq said:


> It's Indians pipe dream. They have little capability for manufacturing something as complex as an F-16.
> 
> 
> Heck, they can't even maintain the Su-30s in serviceable condition, nor can they build many Tejas for any serious deployment.


its your pipe dream to think india cannot built them when its already building MKI from raw meterial level go google HAL site

but then you can dream what you want but hard fact is USA and LM are in deal with india to make at least 126 Blk70/72 F16s in india for IAF of which first 18 will come from US plant where indian engineers will make them with americans to get the know how

as USA/LM is shifting entire tooling and assmbelly line and rigs and overhaul facilities and all chechink systems required to india as they want that facility which produced F16s to be used for F35 priduction ... GOT IT 

last but not the least USA and LM are adament to sell F16 and other stuff like EMALS and AAG for IAC-2 aircraft carrier cause we are paying in hard cash and dont bother about soft loans ect ect 

and do you know the tejas you are making fun of has

tejas MK 1 has more composites than any other fighter jet currentelli in its over all weight than typhoon
tejas MK1 has 4 channel digital FBW with RSS
tejas MK1 has HOBS & HMDS & Derby-I Derby ER - BVR combo
Teajas MK1 is also tested with Griffin and paveway 2 and spike family of LGBs, PGMs and SOMs

Tejas is now in process of intigration with IFR probe OBOGS and GaN based AESA radar 

all capabillities which a certain plane still does not have in its Blk2 version but wants in its blk3 version 

hope you dont find my post too revolutionarry and hot to handle ... no offence just facts


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## Sinnerman108

Oscar said:


> Not sure of the context......



Check this












Just wondering if someone has seen F-16s up close, could he compare ?


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## princefaisal

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar I actually believe there is a possible gap period (in terms capability deficiency) looming in the late 2010s and early 2020s. The Block-III is not a factor yet as PAC is still in the heart of Block-II, and F-16 factor is nil at this time. Do you expect the PAF to pull the J-10 back to the table? The Chinese haven't cleared it for export, but the AESA equipped J-10C could be a viable bridge for 2019-2023 to pave for the JF-17 Block-III.


Not J-10C. Only J-10D with CFT's.


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## ali_raza

only eft or more f16 is realistic options here


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## Michael Corleone

mingle said:


> It wont happen overnite moving plant to india and assemble a plane my take is looking 8 to 10 yrs pretty much time when PAF will looking to replace MLU F16s .


lets hope thats the case


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Oscar I actually believe there is a possible gap period (in terms capability deficiency) looming in the late 2010s and early 2020s. The Block-III is not a factor yet as PAC is still in the heart of Block-II, and F-16 factor is nil at this time. Do you expect the PAF to pull the J-10 back to the table? The Chinese haven't cleared it for export, but the AESA equipped J-10C could be a viable bridge for 2019-2023 to pave for the JF-17 Block-III.


I dont think so. The focus is going to be on the 5th generation asset. Since regardless of timelines, the major threat too wont be able to gear up till then as well.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> I dont think so. The focus is going to be on the 5th generation asset. Since regardless of timelines, the major threat too wont be able to gear up till then as well.


Well, some respite could be had if - ironically - India grounds its MKI fleet for the Super Sukhoi upgrade. It won't ground the entire fleet in one go, but unless it intends to conduct the upgrade over a very long-term cycle, we could expect at least 25% of that fleet on the ground over a 3-4 year period. The single engine requirement, if brought to fruition, may take a few years to conclude on just the evaluation and negotiation phase, induction will likely factor in after the Rafale. 

But no matter which way one cuts it, the mid-to-late 2020s will get crazy in terms of massive IAF procurement. Do you expect a next-gen fighter to be available to the PAF in that time-frame? The PAF apparently wasn't thrilled about the FC-31 (not enough to sign onto yet anyways), and the TFX won't be a factor (best case) until the late 2020s. Honestly, the mid-2020s are just 9 years away, I don't think we can consider that a realistic time-frame to finalize a design, propel it into development, produce, and induct in numbers?


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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Well, some respite could be had if - ironically - India grounds its MKI fleet for the Super Sukhoi upgrade. It won't ground the entire fleet in one go, but unless it intends to conduct the upgrade over a very long-term cycle, we could expect at least 25% of that fleet on the ground over a 3-4 year period. The single engine requirement, if brought to fruition, may take a few years to conclude on just the evaluation and negotiation phase, induction will likely factor in after the Rafale.
> 
> But no matter which way one cuts it, the mid-to-late 2020s will get crazy in terms of massive IAF procurement. Do you expect a next-gen fighter to be available to the PAF in that time-frame? The PAF apparently wasn't thrilled about the FC-31 (not enough to sign onto yet anyways), and the TFX won't be a factor (best case) until the late 2020s. Honestly, the mid-2020s are just 9 years away, I don't think we can consider that a realistic time-frame to finalize a design, propel it into development, produce, and induct in numbers?


unless paf has its sights on j-31, we have nothing new till 2030, only probably ac could be the typhoon/j-10/j-11/16/flanker variant, best thing is to get 250 thunders with aesa and build up f-16 numbers to 100+ and if possible get permission to join turkish f-16 upgrade programs/or LM saber plus getting aim120D. if we achieve this that would be mean a very capable force of 350-400 fighters 

this with better SAMs should be ble to hold off IAF before a 5th gen arrival in late 2020s


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> unless paf has its sights on j-31, we have nothing new till 2030, only probably ac could be the typhoon/j-10/j-11/16/flanker variant, best thing is to get 250 thunders with aesa and build up f-16 numbers to 100+ and if possible get permission to join turkish f-16 upgrade programs/or LM saber plus getting aim120D. if we achieve this that would be mean a very capable force of 350-400 fighters
> 
> this with better SAMs should be ble to hold off IAF before a 5th gen arrival in late 2020s


The F-16V upgrade would be a major boon, but unless ordered by the DoD, LM is unlikely to court Pakistan with it while trying to rope India into the F-16. Best case scenario, the JF-17 Block-III could enter production before 2020, and at a full-rate (without any for export) could get us 100 units well before 2025.


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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The F-16V upgrade would be a major boon, but unless ordered by the DoD, LM is unlikely to court Pakistan with it while trying to rope India into the F-16. Best case scenario, the JF-17 Block-III could enter production before 2020, and at a full-rate (without any for export) could get us 100 units well before 2025.


i doubt india will secure f-16s, its all upto politics, and govt efforts..frankly if we are unable to do so its failure of foreign policy

thunder with current rate 25 ac per year 150 additional is doable till 2025-27 period, with some improvement the rate can go up to cover exports , regardless it depends when will block 3 start production 2018, 2019, 2020?
more used f-16s with possible EDA from USA should be target with more Turkish weapons and system integration 

PAF is lagging behind, it needs to catch up rather than slowing its procurement, and that has to be affordable and realistic.


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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The F-16V upgrade would be a major boon, but unless ordered by the DoD, LM is unlikely to court Pakistan with it while trying to rope India into the F-16. Best case scenario, the JF-17 Block-III could enter production before 2020, and at a full-rate (without any for export) could get us 100 units well before 2025.


Bilal i dont think india would go F16 as replacement of Mig 21 reason is in next 15 yrs F 16 would be obsolete jet ndia looking jet for 25 to 35 yrs life span which F16 cant compliment .


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mingle said:


> Bilal i dont think india would go F16 as replacement of Mig 21 reason is in next 15 yrs F 16 would be obsolete jet ndia looking jet for 25 to 35 yrs life span which F16 cant compliment .


The F-16 variant India will be seeking would include an AESA radar, latest available ECM/EW, Israeli DASH HMD/S, and their choice of AAMs (incl. Python 5). It might be an old jet, but it would still be an excellent one and one that would technologically match the JF-17 Block-III and exceed it in performance. These days, the platform matters less and the subsystems more, and India has access to a lot of modern and up and coming subsystems.

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## alikazmi007

Sinnerman108 said:


> Check this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just wondering if someone has seen F-16s up close, could he compare ?



These are actually IBM BladeCenter E or Chassis with IBM Blade Arrays (the vertical things!). The blades are either HS-22 or HS-23. Each blade has a throughput of 2 gbit/sec. The Chassis has built in Load Balancer called BNT module. 

I work with these type of chassis on regular basis as an enterprise wide switching solution for a large enterprise.

What my question is; are you sure that this Chassis if installed in the F-16? Because this thing weights ridiculously high. This thing doesn't belong in a light weight fighter.


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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The F-16 variant India will be seeking would include an AESA radar, latest available ECM/EW, Israeli DASH HMD/S, and their choice of AAMs (incl. Python 5). It might be an old jet, but it would still be an excellent one and one that would technologically match the JF-17 Block-III and exceed it in performance. These days, the platform matters less and the subsystems more, and India has access to a lot of modern and up and coming subsystems.


True but still an old jet .Dont know what will come up in next 15 to 20 yrs the way tech Moving plus a lot of handicaps by US .Best bet would be local LCA if they can't then Gripen NG.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mingle said:


> True but still an old jet .Dont know what will come up in next 15 to 20 yrs the way tech Moving plus a lot of handicaps by US .Best bet would be local LCA if they can't then Gripen NG.


What's to stop the F-16 from having those new subsystems? It's one thing to say that the entirety of future air warfare will go towards stealth platforms, but in reality this is far from the case (with the U.S. still fielding Super Hornets and Eagles of various types into the long-term).

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> What's to stop the F-16 from having those new subsystems? It's one thing to say that the entirety of future air warfare will go towards stealth platforms, but in reality this is far from the case (with the U.S. still fielding Super Hornets and Eagles of various types into the long-term).


Bilal one reason US still flying these jets is delay in F35 jets .i am not saying it's bad plane but not feasible for 30 to fourty years it will be political decision nothing more .


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mingle said:


> Bilal one reason US still flying these jets is delay in F35 jets .i am not saying it's bad plane but not feasible for 30 to fourty years it will be political decision nothing more .


You might have a point if India is fighting the U.S., but the situation is quite different. India's actual threat profile comprises of a Pakistan that is stagnating and a China that is being encircled by an increasing number of foes. Granted, I do believe that the moment Pakistan finds genuine political and economic grounding (together), India will be in for a real challenge, but until then (or in its absence), AESA-equipped F-16s will suit them fine. Age doesn't matter - as long as it can continue taking modern subsystems, it will be fine. One would need more than the number of years on its design to run against the effectiveness of top-notch U.S. or Israeli radars, Israeli AAMs, Israeli ECM/EW, etc, an Indian F-16 will likely get.

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## Sinnerman108

alikazmi007 said:


> These are actually IBM BladeCenter E or Chassis with IBM Blade Arrays (the vertical things!). The blades are either HS-22 or HS-23. Each blade has a throughput of 2 gbit/sec. The Chassis has built in Load Balancer called BNT module.
> 
> I work with these type of chassis on regular basis as an enterprise wide switching solution for a large enterprise.
> 
> What my question is; are you sure that this Chassis if installed in the F-16? Because this thing weights ridiculously high. This thing doesn't belong in a light weight fighter.



I know what that is.

My question was, compared to that, what are the F-16's like ?


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## Sine Nomine

*F-16 Cockpit, avionics and radar*




@Bilal Khan 777 @Windjammer @Bratva

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## MastanKhan

mingle said:


> Bilal one reason US still flying these jets is delay in F35 jets .i am not saying it's bad plane but not feasible for 30 to fourty years it will be political decision nothing more .



Hi,

The Israelis just ordered new F15's---. The F35 and the F22 are for a certain battle arena---for the rest of them---the F16's---the F18's---the F15's are way too advanced for the fight.

The F16 may have been designed 40 years ago----but a new aircraft is being built on modern machines with state of the art technology. The EW suite is the most advanced and so are the weapons---.

If I went and bought a new Holland & Holland shotgun---people could say that it is a 100 years + old name---but is it!

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## Yasir Ashraf

Arsalan said:


> the J-11B is an improved version of J11 or the SU27!
> it have better stealth features making it 4.5 generation plane better than the 4 generation su27!!


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## Windjammer

Every inch of a modern jet fighter is bound to contain something sensitive.







That pin can make all the difference.

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## The Eagle

Arrows..... Coming back to home...

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## Sine Nomine

Windjammer said:


> That pin can make all the difference.


Yup,a safety pin of missile launcher can cause lot of destruction when aircraft is started electric signal travels to whole body of aircraft after interacting with sensors and other systems,it sends all "ok" to central computer and a beep is generated,now pilot can move on,see what happens when this electrical safety pin is missing...

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## denel

http://www.indiatvnews.com/business...y-shift-its-manufacturing-unit-from-us-353376

I posted this elsewhere. How credible is this? and if true, entire PAF is check mated.


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## Raider 21

denel said:


> http://www.indiatvnews.com/business...y-shift-its-manufacturing-unit-from-us-353376
> 
> I posted this elsewhere. How credible is this? and if true, entire PAF is check mated.


Chances are likely if the Indian government was to order the jets....also shifting the plant will unlikely happen due to the black market reputation there. Still then again....you never know....


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## Water Car Engineer

Knuckles said:


> Chances are likely if the Indian government was to order the jets....also shifting the plant will unlikely happen due to the black market reputation there. Still then again....you never know....




A plant will be managed by an Indian private firm, like TATA, Reliance, Mahindra. TATA is also going to raise a assembly, testing plant for the Airbus C295. Reliance will do the same for Antonov birds. Several modules are already being produced in India for several big aerospace OEMs. TATA will also produce Apache block 3 fuselage as well.

India is currently liberalizing it's defence and aerospace industry. It's looking for a private sector aerospace producer. TATA, Reliance, etc. are more than eager. SAAB, Boeing, LM, etc. are more than welling to manage a plant with them.


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## Raider 21

Water Car Engineer said:


> A plant will be managed by an Indian private firm, like TATA, Reliance, Mahindra. TATA is also going to raise a assembly, testing plant for the Airbus C295. Reliance will do the same for Antonov birds. Several modules are already being produced in India for several big aerospace OEMs. TATA will also produce Apache block 3 fuselage as well.
> 
> India is currently liberalizing it's defence and aerospace industry. It's looking for a private sector aerospace producer. TATA, Reliance, etc. are more than eager. SAAB, Boeing, LM, etc. are more than welling to manage a plant with them.



Good for them. Just make sure they get the deals properly this time...


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## AsianForce

Salamu aleykum, I'm not Pakistani but I love your country, your culture and your army, I created a tribute to Pakistan Air Force 




 Tell me what you think, thank you 

PS : I am a Muslim brother from Southeast Asian, sorry for my bad english.

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## syed_yusuf

AsianForce said:


> Salamu aleykum, I'm not Pakistani but I love your country, your culture and your army, I created a tribute to Pakistan Air Force
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me what you think, thank you
> 
> PS : I am a Muslim brother from Southeast Asian, sorry for my bad english.




Really nice

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## krash

AsianForce said:


> Salamu aleykum, I'm not Pakistani but I love your country, your culture and your army, I created a tribute to Pakistan Air Force
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me what you think, thank you
> 
> PS : I am a Muslim brother from Southeast Asian, sorry for my bad english.



Wa' alaikum salam! You did a very good job. Keep it up.

Visit Pakistan some time. Let us repay your love in kind.

ps: Your English is just fine mate. Welcome to PDF.

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## Windjammer

*Good study of JHMCS used by PAF F-16 Pilots.*

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## Hassan Guy

It's up to the PAF, If they plan on obtaining more advanced F-16 variants or dropping the platform all together for another one

Main operators like Israel and Turkey are phasing them out.

Even operators like Portugal and Jordan are trying to sell them off.


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## khanasifm

"Main operators like Israel and Turkey are phasing them out."

Not sure then why turkey and USAF still flying them and still upgrading, it will be another two decade before they are completely replaced. Turkey and Greece still fly F4s


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## Hassan Guy

khanasifm said:


> "Main operators like Israel and Turkey are phasing them out."
> 
> Not sure then why turkey and USAF still flying them and still upgrading, it will be another two decade before they are completely replaced. Turkey and Greece still fly F4s


They may still remain in service in small numbers but NOT frontline fighters. They only use the F-4 as an interceptor. Pakistan uses the F-7 as an interceptor but not as a frontline fighter.


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## khanasifm

Hassan Guy said:


> They may still remain in service in small numbers but NOT frontline fighters. They only use the F-4 as an interceptor. Pakistan uses the F-7 as an interceptor but not as a frontline fighter.




So the integration of ASEL pod and bunker buster on F4 by turkey in last few yeas was just waste of time and money


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## SQ8

Hassan Guy said:


> They may still remain in service in small numbers but NOT frontline fighters. They only use the F-4 as an interceptor. *Pakistan uses the F-7 as an interceptor but not as a frontline fighter*.


Absolute BS. The F-7 is now used less and less in interception and more evolved roles such as embedded escort for CAS , CAS and even FAC.

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## khanasifm

Bottom line III world af still flying aircraft long gone int he west, IAF still flying MiG 21, 23/27 and jaguar and Pak af still flying F7 and Mirages so no reason to compare to G7 or West


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## khanasifm

*Amazing How F 16 Pilot Saved Troops With Sonic Booms And Escaped From SAMs. *


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## Naif al Hilali

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

I have been working on an analysis of ferry and combat ranges for active fighter aircraft. The conclusion will seem to be that (except for a couple of outliers) these figures are mostly similar for most modern combat fighters/attack aircraft. Not surprising considering that, no matter from what country the planes originate, they are usually designed to broadly similar payload/performance/range requirements.

Well, the F-16 portion was completed recently and the JF-17 part is awaiting a third revision (other aircraft have had their data analyzed but not written down yet). If there are no objections, I would like to post the F-16 chapter's calculation results here.

I started with the F-16 because it's charts are widely available and can be checked online. So, it will perform a baseline for assumptions to be made when data are not fully available for other aircraft.

No classified information will be presented in the analysis and (for the sake of alarm-raisers) any country that might be interested in the figures will have more accurate data and much more (tactics and capabilities) already made available to them by the manufacturer. The F-16 has been demoed to just about everybody including India.

The figures have all been rounded after calculations to make them more readable (and the roundoffs adjusted, for the nitpickers, so that they add up and/or are consistent). 

First up, for today, the Ferry Range calculations for the F-16 (any mistake corrections will be appreciated):

---

F-16A Block 15 Ferry Range (16,300 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight):
Internal Fuel Only 
24,000 pounds Takeoff Weight
7,000 pounds [3,900 liters] usable fuel
- 400 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 500 pounds climbout to 40,000 feet initial cruising altitude, covering 30 nautical miles
- 5,100 pounds cruise at Mach 0.84, climbing to 45,000 feet final altitude, covering 1,230 nautical miles
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20+ minutes Sea-Level Loiter or 150-200 nautical miles Divert
*1,260* nautical miles
(F-16B Two-Seater has 5,800 pounds fuel for *960* nautical miles range)

Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline Drop Tank
26,500 pounds Takeoff Weight
9,000 pounds [5,000 liters] usable fuel
- 400 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 700 pounds climbout to 40,000 feet initial cruising altitude, covering 40 nautical miles
- 6,900 pounds cruise at Mach 0.84, climbing to 45,000 feet final altitude, covering 1,520 nautical miles
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20+ minutes Sea-Level Loiter or 150-200 nautical miles Divert
*1,560* nautical miles
(F-16B Two-Seater has 7,800 pounds fuel for *1,280* nautical miles range)

Internal Fuel + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks
30,500 pounds Takeoff Weight
12,000 pounds [6,700 liters] usable fuel
- 500 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 800 pounds climbout to 38,000 feet initial cruising altitude, covering 50 nautical miles
- 9,700 pounds cruise at Mach 0.84, climbing to 45,000 feet final altitude, covering 1,870 nautical miles 
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20+ minutes Sea-Level Loiter or 150-200 nautical miles Divert
*1,920* nautical miles
(F-16B Two-Seater has 10,800 pounds fuel for *1,660* nautical miles range)

Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks
33,000 pounds Takeoff Weight
14,000 pounds [7,800 liters] usable fuel
- 500 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 800 pounds climbout to 36,000 feet initial cruising altitude, covering 60 nautical miles
- 11,700 pounds cruise at Mach 0.84, climbing to 45,000 feet final altitude, covering 2,080 nautical miles 
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20+ minutes Sea-Level Loiter or 150-200 nautical miles Divert
*2,140* nautical miles
(F-16B Two-Seater has 12,800 pounds fuel for *1,880* nautical miles range)
General Dynamics Stated Range for F-16A: _*2,100+*_ nautical miles

Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline + Two 600 Gallon Drop Tanks
36,000 pounds Takeoff Weight
17,000 pounds [9,500 liters] usable fuel
- 600 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 900 pounds climbout to 34,000 feet initial cruising altitude, covering 50 nautical miles
- 14,500 pounds cruise at Mach 0.84, climbing to 45,000 feet final altitude, covering 2,500 nautical miles 
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20+ minutes Sea-Level Loiter or 150-200 nautical miles Divert
*2,550* nautical miles
(F-16B Two-Seater has 15,800 pounds fuel for *2,300* nautical miles range)

---

F-16AM Mid-Life Update [MLU] Ferry Range (@ 18,000 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight):
Somewhere Halfway Between F-16 Block 15 and Block 50/52

---

F-16C Block 50/52 Ferry Range (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight):
Internal Fuel Only
27,500 pounds Takeoff Weight 
7,000 pounds [3,900 liters] usable fuel
- 400 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 600 pounds climbout to 38,000 feet initial cruising altitude, covering 40 nautical miles
- 5,000 pounds cruise at Mach 0.84, climbing to 40,000 feet final altitude, covering 1,110 nautical miles
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20+ minutes Sea-Level Loiter or 150-200 nautical miles Divert
*1,150* nautical miles
(F-16D Two-Seater has 5,800 pounds fuel for *800* nautical miles range)

Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline Drop Tank
30,000 pounds Takeoff Weight
9,000 pounds [5,000 liters] usable fuel
- 500 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 700 pounds climbout to 37,000 feet initial cruising altitude, covering 40 nautical miles
- 6,800 pounds cruise at Mach 0.84, climbing to 40,000 feet final altitude, covering 1,360 nautical miles 
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20+ minutes Sea-Level Loiter or 150-200 nautical miles Divert
*1,400* nautical miles
(F-16D Two-Seater has 7,800 pounds fuel for *1,150* nautical miles range)

Internal Fuel + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks
34,000 pounds Takeoff Weight
12,000 pounds [6,700 liters] fuel
- 500 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 700 pounds climbout to 35,000 feet initial cruising altitude, covering 40 nautical miles
- 9,800 pounds cruise at Mach 0.84, climbing to 40,000 feet final altitude, covering 1,660 nautical miles
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20+ minutes Sea-Level Loiter or 150-200 nautical miles Divert
*1,700* nautical miles
(F-16D Two-Seater has 10,800 pounds fuel for *1,450* nautical miles range)

Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks
36,500 pounds Takeoff Weight
14,000 pounds [7,800 liters] usable fuel
- 600 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 900 pounds climbout to 34,000 feet initial cruising altitude, covering 60 nautical miles
- 11,500 pounds cruise at Mach 0.84, climbing to 40,000 feet final altitude, covering 1,840 nautical miles 
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20+ minutes Sea-Level Loiter or 150-200 nautical miles Divert
*1,900* nautical miles
(F-16D Two-Seater has 11,800 pounds fuel for *1,700* nautical miles range)
USAF Stated Range for F-16C/D: _*1,740+*_ nautical miles

Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline + Two 600 Gallon Drop Tanks
39,500 pounds Takeoff Weight
17,000 pounds [9,500 liters] usable fuel
- 600 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 900 pounds climbout to 32,000 feet initial cruising altitude, covering 40 nautical miles
- 14,500 pounds cruise at Mach 0.84, climbing to 40,000 feet final altitude, covering 2,260 nautical miles 
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20+ minutes Sea-Level Loiter or 150-200 nautical miles Divert
*2,300* nautical miles
(F-16D Two-Seater has 15,800 pounds fuel for *2,100* nautical miles range)

---

F-16C Block 50/52 Ferry Range (21,000 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight w/Conformal Fuel Tanks [CFTs] installed):
Internal Fuel Only
31,500 pounds Takeoff Weight 
10,000 pounds [5,600 liters] usable fuel
- 500 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 600 pounds climbout to 35,000 feet initial cruising altitude, covering 30 nautical miles
- 7,900 pounds cruise at Mach 0.84, climbing to 40,000 feet final altitude, covering 1,590 nautical miles
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20+ minutes Sea-Level Loiter or 150-200 nautical miles Divert
*1,620* nautical miles
(F-16D Two-Seater has 8,800 pounds fuel for *1,340* nautical miles range)

Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline Drop Tank
 34,000 pounds Takeoff Weight
12,000 pounds [6,700 liters] usable fuel
- 500 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 700 pounds climbout to 35,000 feet initial cruising altitude, covering 40 nautical miles
- 9,800 pounds cruise at Mach 0.84, climbing to 40,000 feet final altitude, covering 1,780 nautical miles
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20+ minutes Sea-Level Loiter or 150-200 nautical miles Divert
*1,820* nautical miles
(F-16D Two-Seater has 10,800 pounds fuel for *1,580* nautical miles range)

Internal Fuel + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks
38,000 pounds Takeoff Weight
15,000 pounds [8,400 liters] usable fuel
- 600 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 800 pounds climbout to 34,000 feet initial cruising altitude, covering 50 nautical miles
- 12,600 pounds cruise at Mach 0.84, climbing to 40,000 feet final altitude, covering 1,830 nautical miles
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20+ minutes Sea-Level Loiter or 150-200 nautical miles Divert
*2,120* nautical miles
(F-16D Two-Seater has 13,800 pounds fuel for *1,880* nautical miles range)

Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks
40,500 pounds Takeoff Weight
17,000 pounds [9,500 liters] usable fuel
- 700 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 900 pounds climbout to 32,000 feet initial cruising altitude, covering 50 nautical miles
- 14,400 pounds cruise at Mach 0.84, climbing to 40,000 feet final altitude, covering 2,230 nautical miles
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20+ minutes Sea-Level Loiter or 150-200 nautical miles Divert
*2,280* nautical miles
(F-16D Two-Seater has 15,800 pounds fuel for *2,040* nautical miles range)
Locheed Martin Stated Range for F-16C with CFTs: _*2,280*_ nautical miles

Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline + Two 600 Gallon Drop Tanks
43,500 pounds Takeoff Weight
20,000 pounds [11,200 liters] usable fuel
- 700 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 1,000 pounds climbout to 29,000 feet initial cruising altitude, covering 50 nautical miles
- 17,300 pounds cruise at Mach 0.84, climbing to 40,000 feet final altitude, covering 2,570 nautical miles
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20+ minutes Sea-Level Loiter or 150-200 nautical miles Divert
*2,620* nautical miles
(F-16D Two-Seater has 18,800 pounds fuel for *2,380* nautical miles range)

---

Notes:

1. Takeoff and Climbout in Military (Dry) power from 2,000 feet altitude at 40 Celsius temperature OR 8,000 Feet at 20 Celsius.

2. Warmer than standard temperatures at cruising altitude may reduce ferry range by 1-5% for some portions of flight.

3. Afterburner (A/B) assisted takeoffs require additional 400-700 pounds fuel reducing ferry range by @ 100 nautical miles. In practice, afterburners are likely to be used when carrying more than just a Centerline Drop Tank, in order to shorten takeoff distances.

4. Not being able to cruise at optimum altitudes/airspeeds for some portions of flight may reduce ferry range by 50-200 nautical miles.

5. Headwinds encountered during some portions of flight may reduce ferry range by 50-300 nautical miles.

6. Extra Stores such as Cargo Pods, Navigation Pods, and Missiles will reduce ferry range by 100-200 nautical miles.

---

Units:

One Nautical Mile [nm.] = 6080 Feet [ft.] = 1.15 Statute Miles [mi.] = @ 1.85 Kilometers [km.]

One Pound [lb.] = @ 0.4535 Kilograms [kg.]; One Kilogram = 2.205 Pounds

1,000 Pound-Force [lbf.] Thrust = @ 4,450 Newtons = 4.45 Kilo-Newtons [kN.] Thrust

Kilograms are units of mass and the term Kilogram-Force [kgf.] is meaningless.

One US Gallon = 3.785 Liters = @ 6.84 pounds JP-8 fuel; One Imperial Gallon = 4.54 Liters; One Liter = @ 0.82 Kilogram JP-8 fuel

---

Allah keep everyone safe

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## Naif al Hilali

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Today, we are going to design some F-16 mission profiles to serve as benchmarks for other aircraft to be evaluated later. Please see the previous post for all caveats and assumptions.

Hifz u kum Allah

*F-16 Combat Radius Evaluation Examples*
---

Mission Profile I - Combat Air Patrol [CAP] 200 nautical miles from base:

F-16A Block 15 (16,300 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline Drop Tank + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Four AIM-9 Sidewinders
34,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
14,000 pounds [7,800 liters] fuel
- 500 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 800 pounds climbout to 36,000 feet initial cruising altitude covering 60 nautical miles
- 1,000 pounds cruise 140 nautical miles to CAP area
- 6,000 pounds stay on station for two hours and ten minutes
- 600 pounds five minutes dash to/from interception, jettisoning external tanks in case of combat and
- 1,300 pounds up to two minutes of afterburner combat @ 20,000 feet
- 800 pounds cruise up to 200 nautical miles back to base
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
*2 Hours 10 Minutes* at *200 nautical miles* from base
General Dynamics Stated Endurance for F-16A: _*200 nautical miles + 2 hr 10 min *_CAP

F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline Drop Tank + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Four AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
39,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
14,000 pounds [7,800 liters] fuel
- 600 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 900 pounds climbout to 33,000 feet initial cruising altitude covering 50 nautical miles
- 1,200 pounds cruise 150 nautical miles to CAP area
- 5,100 pounds stay on station for one hour and thirty five minutes
- 700 pounds five minutes dash to/from interception, jettisoning external tanks in case of combat and
- 1,500 pounds up to two minutes of afterburner combat @ 20,000 feet
- 1,000 pounds cruise up to 200 nautical miles back to base
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
*1 Hour 35 Minutes* at *200 nautical miles* from base

---

Mission Profile II - Short-Range Supersonic Interception (/Point Defence):

F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
Internal Fuel + Four AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
30,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
7,000 pounds [3,900 liters] fuel
- 1,000 pounds taxi & afterburner-assisted takeoff in 1 minute
- 800 pounds afterburner-assisted climbout to 40,000 feet covering 10 nautical miles in 1.75 minutes
- 800 pounds accelerate to Mach 1.6 covering 23 nautical miles in 2 minutes
- 800 pounds supersonic cruise covering 17 nautical miles in 1.25 minute
- 100 pounds decelerate to subsonic covering 15 nautical miles in 1 minute
- 2,000 pounds up to five minutes combat (including two minutes in afterburner) @ 20,000 feet
- 500 pounds climbout and cruise up to 80 nautical miles back to base 
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
* 65 nautical miles* interception in 7 minutes

F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline Drop Tank + Four AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
32,500 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
9,000 pounds [5,000 liters] fuel
- 1,000 pounds taxi & afterburner-assisted takeoff in 1 minute
- 1,000 pounds afterburner-assisted climbout to 40,000 feet covering 15 nautical miles in 2 minutes
- Jettison Centerline Tank
- 1,000 pounds accelerate to Mach 1.6 covering 27 nautical miles in 2.25 minutes
- 2,200 pounds supersonic cruise, climbing to 45,000 feet and covering 55 nautical miles in 4 minutes
- 100 pounds decelerate to subsonic covering 15 nautical miles in 1 minute
- 2,000 pounds up to five minutes combat (including two minutes in afterburner) @ 20,000 feet
- 700 pounds climbout and cruise up to 120 nautical miles back to base 
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
*110 nautical miles *interception in 10.25 minutes

F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
Internal Fuel + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Four AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders - *The Likely Configuration*
36,500 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
12,000 pounds [6,700 liters] fuel
- 1,200 pounds taxi & afterburner-assisted takeoff in 1 minute
- 1,000 pounds afterburner-assisted climbout to 35,000 feet covering 18 nautical miles in 2 minutes
- 1,800 pounds accelerate to Mach 1.6 covering 32 nautical miles in 3 minutes
- 1,000 pounds supersonic cruise, climbing to 40,000 feet and covering 20 nautical miles in 1.5 minutes
- Jettison Drop Tanks
- 3,000 pounds supersonic cruise, climbing to 45,000 feet covering 85 nautical miles in 6 minutes
- 100 pounds decelerate to subsonic covering 15 nautical miles in 1 minute
- 2,000 pounds up to five minutes combat (including two minutes in afterburner) @ 20,000 feet
- 900 pounds climbout and cruise up to 160 nautical miles back to base 
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
*170 nautical miles* interception in 14.5 minutes

F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline Drop Tank + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Four AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
39,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
14,000 pounds [7,800 liters] fuel
- 1,300 pounds taxi & afterburner-assisted takeoff in 1 minute
- 1,100 pounds afterburner-assisted climbout to 35,000 feet covering 15 nautical miles in 2 minutes
- Jettison Centerline Tank
- 1,900 pounds accelerate to Mach 1.6 covering 32 nautical miles in 3 minutes
- 2,700 pounds supersonic cruise, climbing to 40,000 feet and covering 63 nautical miles in 4.5 minutes
- Jettison 370 Gallon Drop Tanks
- 2,700 pounds supersonic cruise, climbing to 45,000 feet and covering 77 nautical miles in 5.5 minutes
- 100 pounds decelerate to subsonic covering 15 nautical miles in 1 minute
- 2,000 pounds up to five minutes combat (including two minutes in afterburner) @ 20,000 feet
- 1,200 pounds climbout and cruise up to 200 nautical miles back to base 
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
*200 nautical miles* interception in 17 minutes

---

Mission Profile III - Long-Range Interception (/Air Superiority/Fighter Escort):

F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
Internal Fuel + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Four AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
36,500 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
12,000 pounds [6,700 liters] fuel
- 500 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 900 pounds climbout to 33,000 feet covering 50 nautical miles
- 4,300 pounds cruise 600 nautical miles
- 2,000 pounds jettison tanks, up to five minutes combat (including two minutes in afterburner) @ 20,000 feet
- 3,300 pounds climbout and cruise 600 nautical miles back to base 
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
* 600 nautical miles*

General Dynamics Stated Range for YF-16/F-16A Air-Superiority Mission with Three Tanks & Four AIM-9s: _*700+ nautical miles*_

---

Mission Profile IV - Modern Medium Altitude Strike (Precision Strike/Battlefield Air Interdiction/Deep Air Interdiction):

F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
Internal Fuel + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Navigation & Targeting Pods + Two 2400 pound Precision Guided Bombs + Two AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders - *The Likely Configuration*
41,500 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
12,000 pounds [6,700 liters] fuel
- 1,000 pounds taxi & afterburner-assisted takeoff
- 1,400 pounds climbout to 29,000 feet initial cruising altitude covering 70 nautical miles
- 3,800 pounds cruise 380 nautical miles to target
- 800 pounds five minutes high-subsonic combat @ 20,000 feet & climbout back to cruising altitude
- EITHER
a) 4,000 pounds bring back all drop tanks and bombs, cruising up to 500 nautical miles
OR
b) 1,500 pounds jettison tanks and bombs, and engage in up to two minutes of afterburner combat @ 20,000 feet
2,500 pounds cruise 450 nautical miles back to base
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
*450 nautical miles* mission radius [minimum of 380+70, 500, 450]

F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline Drop Tank + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Navigation & Targeting Pods + Two 2400 pound Precision Guided Bombs + Two AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
44,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
14,000 pounds [7,800 liters] fuel
- 1,100 pounds taxi & afterburner-assisted takeoff
- 1,300 pounds climbout to 26,000 feet initial cruising altitude covering 60 nautical miles
- 5,000 pounds cruise 450 nautical miles to target
- 800 pounds five minutes high-subsonic combat @ 20,000 feet & climbout back to cruising altitude
- EITHER
a) 4,800 pounds bring back all drop tanks and bombs, cruising up to 520 nautical miles
OR
b) 1,500 pounds jettison tanks and bombs, and engage in up to two minutes of afterburner combat @ 20,000 feet
3,300 pounds cruise up to 580 nautical miles back to base
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
*510 nautical miles* mission radius [minimum of 450+60, 520, 580]

USAF Stated Range for F-16C Strike Mission (unspecified payload): _*500 miles*_ combat radius

---

Mission Profile V - Classic Long-Range Hi-Lo-Hi Strike (Deep Interdiction):

F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline Drop Tank + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Navigation & Targeting Pods + Two 2400 pound Precision Guided Bombs + Two AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
44,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
14,000 pounds [7,800 liters] fuel
- 1,100 pounds taxi & afterburner-assisted takeoff
- 1,300 pounds climbout to 26,000 feet initial cruising altitude covering 60 nautical miles
- 4,600 pounds cruise 440 nautical miles, jettisoning drop tanks when empty
- 600 pounds cruise and descend to sea level 70 nautical miles
- 700 pounds 50 nautical miles low-level cruise to target
- 400 pounds afterburner use over target (jettison bombs if target not found) 
- 800 pounds 50 nautical miles climbout back from target
- 3,500 pounds cruise back up to 580 nautical miles
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
*620 nautical miles* mission radius

F-16A Block 5 (15,600 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline Drop Tank + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Two 2000 pound Bombs + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
37,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
14,000 pounds [7,800 liters] fuel
General Dynamics Stated Range: _*740 nautical miles*_ mission radius

---

Mission Profile VI - Classic Long-Range Hi-Hi Strike (Deep Interdiction):

F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline Drop Tank + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Navigation & Targeting Pods + Two 2400 pound Precision Guided Bombs + Two AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
44,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
14,000 pounds [7,800 liters] fuel
- 1,100 pounds taxi & afterburner-assisted takeoff
- 1,300 pounds climbout to 26,000 feet initial cruising altitude covering 60 nautical miles
- 4,800 pounds cruise 460 nautical miles, jettisoning drop tanks when empty
- 1,200 pounds cruise 150 nautical miles to target (jettison bombs if target not found)
- 700 pounds afterburner use over target 
- 3,900 pounds cruise back up to 680 nautical miles
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
* 670 nautical miles* mission radius

F-16A Block 5 (15,600 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
Internal Fuel + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Two 2000 pounds Bombs + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
34,500 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
12,000 pounds [7,800 liters] fuel
General Dynamics Stated Range: _*810 nautical miles*_ mission radius

---

Mission Profile VII - Close Air Support [CAS]:

F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
Internal Fuel + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Navigation & Targeting Pods + Four 600 pound Precision Guided Bombs + Two AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
39,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
12,000 pounds [6,700 liters] fuel
- 600 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 1,300 pounds climbout to 31,000 feet initial cruising altitude covering 70 nautical miles
- 2,400 pounds cruise 230 nautical miles to target
- 3,700 pounds 25 minutes loiter + five minutes combat (including two minutes in afterburner) @ 20,000 feet
- 3,000 pounds bring back all drop tanks and bombs, climbout & cruise up to 350 nautical miles
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
*30 minutes *combat endurance *300 nautical miles* from base
(or *1 Hour* at *200 nautical miles* from base)

--- 

Mission Profile VIII - Suppression of Enemy Air Defences [SEAD]:

F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
Internal Fuel + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Electronic CounterMeasures [ECM] Pod + One HARM Anti-Radiation Missile + Two 500 pound Bombs + Two AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
39,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
12,000 pounds [6,700 liters] fuel
- 600 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 1,300 pounds climbout to 31,000 feet initial cruising altitude covering 70 nautical miles
- 2,400 pounds cruise 230 nautical miles to target
- 3,700 pounds 25 minutes loiter + five minutes combat (including two minutes in afterburner) @ 20,000 feet
- 3,000 pounds bring back all drop tanks and bombs, climbout & cruise up to 350 nautical miles
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
*30 minutes* combat endurance *300 nautical miles* from base

---

Notes:
1. Warmer than standard Temperatures at Cruising Altitude may reduce range slightly (usually 1% to 2%, but up to 10% for some portions of flight).

2. Afterburner (A/B) assisted takeoffs (where not explicitly mentioned) require additional 500-800 pounds fuel reducing combat radius by @ 50 nautical miles. In practice, unless range is absolutely important, Afterburners are likely to be used when carrying more than just a Centerline Drop Tank, in order to shorten takeoff distances.

3. Not being able to cruise at optimum altitudes/airspeeds for some portions of flight may reduce combat radius by 25-100 nautical miles.

4. Headwinds encountered during some portions of flight may reduce combat radius by 25-100 nautical miles.

5. It is rarely possible to fly in a straight line or at optimum speeds/altitudes to and from the target. To avoid enemy aircraft and defenses, the routes and altitudes selected usually decrease actual mission radius (if defined by straight-line distance from base to target) to 70-80% of the flying distances calculated above. 

6. Every Two miles of sea-level cruise consumes as much fuel as Three miles of cruise at optimum alitude (or even Four miles of optimum cruise, if flying at lighter aircraft weights).

7. Every Two miles of high-subsonic dash at sea-level (@ 480 nautical miles per hour [knots]) consumes as much fuel as Four miles of sea-level optimum cruise (usually 330-390 knots).

8. Every Two miles of high-subsonic dash at medium-high altitude (@ 540 knots) consumes as much fuel as Three to Four miles of optimum cruise (usually 440-480 knots) at optimum alitude.

9. Every minute of afterburner use at medium-high altitude consumes as much fuel as 20 to 10 minutes of optimum cruise. One minute of Maximum Afterburner at sea-level may consume fuel equivalent to 40 minutes of optimum-altitude cruise back to base.

---

Units:

One Nautical Mile [nm.] = 6080 Feet [ft.] = 1.15 Statute Miles [mi.] = @ 1.85 Kilometers [km.]

One Pound [lb.] = @ 0.4535 Kilograms [kg.]; One Kilogram = 2.205 Pounds

1,000 Pound-Force [lbf.] Thrust = @ 4,450 Newtons = 4.45 Kilo-Newtons [kN.] Thrust

Kilograms are units of mass and the term Kilogram-Force [kgf.] is meaningless.

One US Gallon = 3.785 Liters = @ 6.84 pounds JP-8 fuel; One Imperial Gallon = 4.54 Liters; One Liter = @ 0.82 Kilogram JP-8

---

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## MastanKhan

Naif al Hilali said:


> Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem
> 
> Today, we are going to design some F-16 mission profiles to serve as benchmarks for other aircraft to be evaluated later. Please see the previous post for all caveats and assumptions.
> 
> Hifz u kum Allah
> 
> *F-16 Combat Radius Evaluation Examples*
> ---
> 
> Mission Profile I - Combat Air Patrol [CAP] 200 nautical miles from base:
> 
> F-16A Block 15 (16,300 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
> Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline Drop Tank + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Four AIM-9 Sidewinders
> 34,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
> 14,000 pounds [7,800 liters] fuel
> - 500 pounds taxi & takeoff
> - 800 pounds climbout to 36,000 feet initial cruising altitude covering 60 nautical miles
> - 1,000 pounds cruise 140 nautical miles to CAP area
> - 6,000 pounds stay on station for two hours and ten minutes
> - 600 pounds five minutes dash to/from interception, jettisoning external tanks in case of combat and
> - 1,300 pounds up to two minutes of afterburner combat @ 20,000 feet
> - 800 pounds cruise up to 200 nautical miles back to base
> - 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
> *2 Hours 10 Minutes* at *200 nautical miles* from base
> General Dynamics Stated Endurance for F-16A: _*200 nautical miles + 2 hr 10 min *_CAP
> 
> F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
> Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline Drop Tank + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Four AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
> 39,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
> 14,000 pounds [7,800 liters] fuel
> - 600 pounds taxi & takeoff
> - 900 pounds climbout to 33,000 feet initial cruising altitude covering 50 nautical miles
> - 1,200 pounds cruise 150 nautical miles to CAP area
> - 5,100 pounds stay on station for one hour and thirty five minutes
> - 700 pounds five minutes dash to/from interception, jettisoning external tanks in case of combat and
> - 1,500 pounds up to two minutes of afterburner combat @ 20,000 feet
> - 1,000 pounds cruise up to 200 nautical miles back to base
> - 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
> *1 Hour 35 Minutes* at *200 nautical miles* from base
> 
> ---
> 
> Mission Profile II - Short-Range Supersonic Interception (/Point Defence):
> 
> F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
> Internal Fuel + Four AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
> 30,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
> 7,000 pounds [3,900 liters] fuel
> - 1,000 pounds taxi & afterburner-assisted takeoff in 1 minute
> - 800 pounds afterburner-assisted climbout to 40,000 feet covering 10 nautical miles in 1.75 minutes
> - 800 pounds accelerate to Mach 1.6 covering 23 nautical miles in 2 minutes
> - 800 pounds supersonic cruise covering 17 nautical miles in 1.25 minute
> - 100 pounds decelerate to subsonic covering 15 nautical miles in 1 minute
> - 2,000 pounds up to five minutes combat (including two minutes in afterburner) @ 20,000 feet
> - 500 pounds climbout and cruise up to 80 nautical miles back to base
> - 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
> * 65 nautical miles* interception in 7 minutes
> 
> F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
> Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline Drop Tank + Four AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
> 32,500 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
> 9,000 pounds [5,000 liters] fuel
> - 1,000 pounds taxi & afterburner-assisted takeoff in 1 minute
> - 1,000 pounds afterburner-assisted climbout to 40,000 feet covering 15 nautical miles in 2 minutes
> - Jettison Centerline Tank
> - 1,000 pounds accelerate to Mach 1.6 covering 27 nautical miles in 2.25 minutes
> - 2,200 pounds supersonic cruise, climbing to 45,000 feet and covering 55 nautical miles in 4 minutes
> - 100 pounds decelerate to subsonic covering 15 nautical miles in 1 minute
> - 2,000 pounds up to five minutes combat (including two minutes in afterburner) @ 20,000 feet
> - 700 pounds climbout and cruise up to 120 nautical miles back to base
> - 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
> *110 nautical miles *interception in 10.25 minutes
> 
> F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
> Internal Fuel + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Four AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders - *The Likely Configuration*
> 36,500 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
> 12,000 pounds [6,700 liters] fuel
> - 1,200 pounds taxi & afterburner-assisted takeoff in 1 minute
> - 1,000 pounds afterburner-assisted climbout to 35,000 feet covering 18 nautical miles in 2 minutes
> - 1,800 pounds accelerate to Mach 1.6 covering 32 nautical miles in 3 minutes
> - 1,000 pounds supersonic cruise, climbing to 40,000 feet and covering 20 nautical miles in 1.5 minutes
> - Jettison Drop Tanks
> - 3,000 pounds supersonic cruise, climbing to 45,000 feet covering 85 nautical miles in 6 minutes
> - 100 pounds decelerate to subsonic covering 15 nautical miles in 1 minute
> - 2,000 pounds up to five minutes combat (including two minutes in afterburner) @ 20,000 feet
> - 900 pounds climbout and cruise up to 160 nautical miles back to base
> - 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
> *170 nautical miles* interception in 14.5 minutes
> 
> F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
> Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline Drop Tank + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Four AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
> 39,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
> 14,000 pounds [7,800 liters] fuel
> - 1,300 pounds taxi & afterburner-assisted takeoff in 1 minute
> - 1,100 pounds afterburner-assisted climbout to 35,000 feet covering 15 nautical miles in 2 minutes
> - Jettison Centerline Tank
> - 1,900 pounds accelerate to Mach 1.6 covering 32 nautical miles in 3 minutes
> - 2,700 pounds supersonic cruise, climbing to 40,000 feet and covering 63 nautical miles in 4.5 minutes
> - Jettison 370 Gallon Drop Tanks
> - 2,700 pounds supersonic cruise, climbing to 45,000 feet and covering 77 nautical miles in 5.5 minutes
> - 100 pounds decelerate to subsonic covering 15 nautical miles in 1 minute
> - 2,000 pounds up to five minutes combat (including two minutes in afterburner) @ 20,000 feet
> - 1,200 pounds climbout and cruise up to 200 nautical miles back to base
> - 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
> *200 nautical miles* interception in 17 minutes
> 
> ---
> 
> Mission Profile III - Long-Range Interception (/Air Superiority/Fighter Escort):
> 
> F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
> Internal Fuel + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Four AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
> 36,500 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
> 12,000 pounds [6,700 liters] fuel
> - 500 pounds taxi & takeoff
> - 900 pounds climbout to 33,000 feet covering 50 nautical miles
> - 4,300 pounds cruise 600 nautical miles
> - 2,000 pounds jettison tanks, up to five minutes combat (including two minutes in afterburner) @ 20,000 feet
> - 3,300 pounds climbout and cruise 600 nautical miles back to base
> - 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
> * 600 nautical miles*
> 
> General Dynamics Stated Range for YF-16/F-16A Air-Superiority Mission with Three Tanks & Four AIM-9s: _*700+ nautical miles*_
> 
> ---
> 
> Mission Profile IV - Modern Medium Altitude Strike (Precision Strike/Battlefield Air Interdiction/Deep Air Interdiction):
> 
> F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
> Internal Fuel + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Navigation & Targeting Pods + Two 2400 pound Precision Guided Bombs + Two AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders - *The Likely Configuration*
> 41,500 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
> 12,000 pounds [6,700 liters] fuel
> - 1,000 pounds taxi & afterburner-assisted takeoff
> - 1,400 pounds climbout to 29,000 feet initial cruising altitude covering 70 nautical miles
> - 3,800 pounds cruise 380 nautical miles to target
> - 800 pounds five minutes high-subsonic combat @ 20,000 feet & climbout back to cruising altitude
> - EITHER
> a) 4,000 pounds bring back all drop tanks and bombs, cruising up to 500 nautical miles
> OR
> b) 1,500 pounds jettison tanks and bombs, and engage in up to two minutes of afterburner combat @ 20,000 feet
> 2,500 pounds cruise 450 nautical miles back to base
> - 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
> *450 nautical miles* mission radius [minimum of 380+70, 500, 450]
> 
> F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
> Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline Drop Tank + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Navigation & Targeting Pods + Two 2400 pound Precision Guided Bombs + Two AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
> 44,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
> 14,000 pounds [7,800 liters] fuel
> - 1,100 pounds taxi & afterburner-assisted takeoff
> - 1,300 pounds climbout to 26,000 feet initial cruising altitude covering 60 nautical miles
> - 5,000 pounds cruise 450 nautical miles to target
> - 800 pounds five minutes high-subsonic combat @ 20,000 feet & climbout back to cruising altitude
> - EITHER
> a) 4,800 pounds bring back all drop tanks and bombs, cruising up to 520 nautical miles
> OR
> b) 1,500 pounds jettison tanks and bombs, and engage in up to two minutes of afterburner combat @ 20,000 feet
> 3,300 pounds cruise up to 580 nautical miles back to base
> - 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
> *510 nautical miles* mission radius [minimum of 450+60, 520, 580]
> 
> USAF Stated Range for F-16C Strike Mission (unspecified payload): _*500 miles*_ combat radius
> 
> ---
> 
> Mission Profile V - Classic Long-Range Hi-Lo-Hi Strike (Deep Interdiction):
> 
> F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
> Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline Drop Tank + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Navigation & Targeting Pods + Two 2400 pound Precision Guided Bombs + Two AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
> 44,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
> 14,000 pounds [7,800 liters] fuel
> - 1,100 pounds taxi & afterburner-assisted takeoff
> - 1,300 pounds climbout to 26,000 feet initial cruising altitude covering 60 nautical miles
> - 4,600 pounds cruise 440 nautical miles, jettisoning drop tanks when empty
> - 600 pounds cruise and descend to sea level 70 nautical miles
> - 700 pounds 50 nautical miles low-level cruise to target
> - 400 pounds afterburner use over target (jettison bombs if target not found)
> - 800 pounds 50 nautical miles climbout back from target
> - 3,500 pounds cruise back up to 580 nautical miles
> - 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
> *620 nautical miles* mission radius
> 
> F-16A Block 5 (15,600 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
> Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline Drop Tank + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Two 2000 pound Bombs + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
> 37,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
> 14,000 pounds [7,800 liters] fuel
> General Dynamics Stated Range: _*740 nautical miles*_ mission radius
> 
> ---
> 
> Mission Profile VI - Classic Long-Range Hi-Hi Strike (Deep Interdiction):
> 
> F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
> Internal Fuel + 300 Gallon Centerline Drop Tank + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Navigation & Targeting Pods + Two 2400 pound Precision Guided Bombs + Two AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
> 44,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
> 14,000 pounds [7,800 liters] fuel
> - 1,100 pounds taxi & afterburner-assisted takeoff
> - 1,300 pounds climbout to 26,000 feet initial cruising altitude covering 60 nautical miles
> - 4,800 pounds cruise 460 nautical miles, jettisoning drop tanks when empty
> - 1,200 pounds cruise 150 nautical miles to target (jettison bombs if target not found)
> - 700 pounds afterburner use over target
> - 3,900 pounds cruise back up to 680 nautical miles
> - 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
> * 670 nautical miles* mission radius
> 
> F-16A Block 5 (15,600 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
> Internal Fuel + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Two 2000 pounds Bombs + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
> 34,500 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
> 12,000 pounds [7,800 liters] fuel
> General Dynamics Stated Range: _*810 nautical miles*_ mission radius
> 
> ---
> 
> Mission Profile VII - Close Air Support [CAS]:
> 
> F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
> Internal Fuel + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Navigation & Targeting Pods + Four 600 pound Precision Guided Bombs + Two AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
> 39,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
> 12,000 pounds [6,700 liters] fuel
> - 600 pounds taxi & takeoff
> - 1,300 pounds climbout to 31,000 feet initial cruising altitude covering 70 nautical miles
> - 2,400 pounds cruise 230 nautical miles to target
> - 3,700 pounds 25 minutes loiter + five minutes combat (including two minutes in afterburner) @ 20,000 feet
> - 3,000 pounds bring back all drop tanks and bombs, climbout & cruise up to 350 nautical miles
> - 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
> *30 minutes *combat endurance *300 nautical miles* from base
> (or *1 Hour* at *200 nautical miles* from base)
> 
> ---
> 
> Mission Profile VIII - Suppression of Enemy Air Defences [SEAD]:
> 
> F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
> Internal Fuel + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Electronic CounterMeasures [ECM] Pod + One HARM Anti-Radiation Missile + Two 500 pound Bombs + Two AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
> 39,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
> 12,000 pounds [6,700 liters] fuel
> - 600 pounds taxi & takeoff
> - 1,300 pounds climbout to 31,000 feet initial cruising altitude covering 70 nautical miles
> - 2,400 pounds cruise 230 nautical miles to target
> - 3,700 pounds 25 minutes loiter + five minutes combat (including two minutes in afterburner) @ 20,000 feet
> - 3,000 pounds bring back all drop tanks and bombs, climbout & cruise up to 350 nautical miles
> - 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
> *30 minutes* combat endurance *300 nautical miles* from base
> 
> ---
> 
> Notes:
> 1. Warmer than standard Temperatures at Cruising Altitude may reduce range slightly (usually 1% to 2%, but up to 10% for some portions of flight).
> 
> 2. Afterburner (A/B) assisted takeoffs (where not explicitly mentioned) require additional 500-800 pounds fuel reducing combat radius by @ 50 nautical miles. In practice, unless range is absolutely important, Afterburners are likely to be used when carrying more than just a Centerline Drop Tank, in order to shorten takeoff distances.
> 
> 3. Not being able to cruise at optimum altitudes/airspeeds for some portions of flight may reduce combat radius by 25-100 nautical miles.
> 
> 4. Headwinds encountered during some portions of flight may reduce combat radius by 25-100 nautical miles.
> 
> 5. It is rarely possible to fly in a straight line or at optimum speeds/altitudes to and from the target. To avoid enemy aircraft and defenses, the routes and altitudes selected usually decrease actual mission radius (if defined by straight-line distance from base to target) to 70-80% of the flying distances calculated above.
> 
> 6. Every Two miles of sea-level cruise consumes as much fuel as Three miles of cruise at optimum alitude (or even Four miles of optimum cruise, if flying at lighter aircraft weights).
> 
> 7. Every Two miles of high-subsonic dash at sea-level (@ 480 nautical miles per hour [knots]) consumes as much fuel as Four miles of sea-level optimum cruise (usually 330-390 knots).
> 
> 8. Every Two miles of high-subsonic dash at medium-high altitude (@ 540 knots) consumes as much fuel as Three to Four miles of optimum cruise (usually 440-480 knots) at optimum alitude.
> 
> 9. Every minute of afterburner use at medium-high altitude consumes as much fuel as 20 to 10 minutes of optimum cruise. One minute of Maximum Afterburner at sea-level may consume fuel equivalent to 40 minutes of optimum-altitude cruise back to base.
> 
> ---
> 
> Units:
> 
> One Nautical Mile [nm.] = 6080 Feet [ft.] = 1.15 Statute Miles [mi.] = @ 1.85 Kilometers [km.]
> 
> One Pound [lb.] = @ 0.4535 Kilograms [kg.]; One Kilogram = 2.205 Pounds
> 
> 1,000 Pound-Force [lbf.] Thrust = @ 4,450 Newtons = 4.45 Kilo-Newtons [kN.] Thrust
> 
> Kilograms are units of mass and the term Kilogram-Force [kgf.] is meaningless.
> 
> One US Gallon = 3.785 Liters = @ 6.84 pounds JP-8 fuel; One Imperial Gallon = 4.54 Liters; One Liter = @ 0.82 Kilogram JP-8
> 
> ---




Hi,

So---you are just a !!!!!!---what did you say you do!


Please share a similar scenario where an aircraft takes off on different weapons load---minimal fuel and then gets topped of by an air to air refueler right after take off.

What would that do to the loiter time---.

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## Asifkamal

Mastan bhai let's kids rock. Have you seen pictures of jf17 block imagination with kanards and special inlets. I think jf17 block 52 will be like B2 shape.

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## Asifkamal

And Mastan bhai , when I was a kid , I read an article on F16 in mid 80,s . At the end , when I read that it can carry 6 air to air missiles, I went into shock. This aircraft was so much appreciated, that I thought, in one mission it could destroy At least 40 enemy aircrafts................
And during matriculation, one of my class fellows , who was from sargodha told me that F16 started it's engine on ground and at the end of run way there was a person on bicycle and due to extreme suction of air, that poor man came rolling and caught straight into F16 engine inlet.........

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## Naif al Hilali

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> So---you are just a !!!!!!---what did you say you do!
> 
> 
> Please share a similar scenario where an aircraft takes off on different weapons load---minimal fuel and then gets topped of by an air to air refueler right after take off.
> 
> What would that do to the loiter time---.


Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Still just a failed, unemployed ex-grad student (from Oscar's home state) brother. Aircraft are just my hobby.

Short Answer:

There is a reason (besides the monetary) that the USAF, with its large tanker assets, has not adopted CFTs [Conformal Fuel Tanks] on their F-16s, and you always see their aircraft take off with only two and not three tanks. Well there are actually a few:

Mainly, CFTs while exacting very little drag penalties make the aircraft somewhat 'loose and skittish' underneath a tanker, air-to-air refueling already being already a hazardous proposition.

Also, it is easier to jettison just wing tanks for combat and go light, rather than to vent internal fuel (which would be a psychological block anyway). You cannot jettison away the thousand plus pounds of the CFT's weight, in any case.

While the F-16C is heavier and shorter-ranged than the A model, it still has enough range to accomplish most mission objectives with two tanks. The extra drag (and possible, though infrequent, jettison-time separation issues) of a centerline tank, with wing tanks and Sniper installed, are not deemed worth the extra twenty minutes loiter time.

The tankers operating inside your own controlled airspace can assist in extending the mission radius of your fighters exponentially. The most important benefit of a tanker is being able to get gas when you are at the end of your endurance, get lost in a furball (extended, complicated, messy fight), and use up too much fuel to be able to make it back to even your forward airfields.

During the 2016 Turkish coup, the rebel F-16s were carrying two tanks I believe and stayed up all night long with their tankers when they had no place to land.






Please note that all these (and more) are reasons why in combat Mission Profile IV, the two-tank option is voted most likely.

As regards your minimum fuel load, I believe that even in an air-defense role over very tiny countries such as Belgium and the Netherlands, the minimum takeoff load for an F-16AM would likely be a centerline tank and four missiles. Please see combat Mission Profile II above for clarity (there is a reason for working through and listing four options here although only two of them are very likely).

Well, that became the LONG answer quickly. I don't know when to shut up.

Disclaimer: The views expressed here are not necessarily true and have nothing to do with any of the air forces mentioned. I have never even met a fighter pilot or an aerospace engineer (working, not just a grad student). 

EDIT: Just remembered I went to the home of an ex-PAF pilot in Riyadh when I was little. He tried to explain Gs to me with the Child's Swing example and I had no idea what he was saying for many years, because I had not been on many swings. The mission analysis quoted above also took me more than two months to learn to do (something fighter pilots have to learn in a couple of days for a new jet). Regards

Allah keep everyone safe.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> *Good study of JHMCS used by PAF F-16 Pilots.*
> 
> View attachment 345993


Where is the study ??


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## Naif al Hilali

Knuckles said:


> Where is the study ??



Study used as a noun to denote the details apparent in the image of the object pictured (A study can be pictorial, graphic, or tabular as well as being verbal):



Windjammer said:


> *Good study of JHMCS used by PAF F-16 Pilots.*
> 
> View attachment 345993

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## MastanKhan

Naif al Hilali said:


> Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem
> 
> Still just a failed, unemployed ex-grad student (from Oscar's home state) brother. Aircraft are just my hobby.
> 
> Short Answer:
> 
> There is a reason (besides the monetary) that the USAF, with its large tanker assets, has not adopted CFTs [Conformal Fuel Tanks] on their F-16s, and you always see their aircraft take off with only two and not three tanks. Well there are actually a few:
> 
> Mainly, CFTs while exacting very little drag penalties make the aircraft somewhat 'loose and skittish' underneath a tanker, air-to-air refueling already being already a hazardous proposition.
> 
> Also, it is easier to jettison just wing tanks for combat and go light, rather than to vent internal fuel (which would be a psychological block anyway). You cannot jettison away the thousand plus pounds of the CFT's weight, in any case.
> 
> While the F-16C is heavier and shorter-ranged than the A model, it still has enough range to accomplish most mission objectives with two tanks. The extra drag (and possible, though infrequent, jettison-time separation issues) of a centerline tank, with wing tanks and Sniper installed, are not deemed worth the extra twenty minutes loiter time.
> 
> The tankers operating inside your own controlled airspace can assist in extending the mission radius of your fighters exponentially. The most important benefit of a tanker is being able to get gas when you are at the end of your endurance, get lost in a furball (extended, complicated, messy fight), and use up too much fuel to be able to make it back to even your forward airfields.
> 
> During the 2016 Turkish coup, the rebel F-16s were carrying two tanks I believe and stayed up all night long with their tankers when they had no place to land.
> 
> View attachment 352715
> 
> 
> Please note that all these (and more) are reasons why in combat Mission Profile IV, the two-tank option is voted most likely.
> 
> As regards your minimum fuel load, I believe that even in an air-defense role over very tiny countries such as Belgium and the Netherlands, the minimum takeoff load for an F-16AM would likely be a centerline tank and four missiles. Please see combat Mission Profile II above for clarity (there is a reason for working through and listing four options here although only two of them are very likely).
> 
> Well, that became the LONG answer quickly. I don't know when to shut up.
> 
> Disclaimer: The views expressed here are not necessarily true and have nothing to do with any of the air forces mentioned. I have never even met a fighter pilot or an aerospace engineer (working, not just a grad student).
> 
> EDIT: Just remembered I went to the home of an ex-PAF pilot in Riyadh when I was little. He tried to explain Gs to me with the Child's Swing example and I had no idea what he was saying for many years, because I had not been on many swings. The mission analysis quoted above also took me more than two months to learn to do (something fighter pilots have to learn in a couple of days for a new jet). Regards
> 
> Allah keep everyone safe.



Hi,

I should have been more clear in my inquiry---. Taking off with two tanks with minimal fuel---full weapons load---and then filling up the tanks thru a refueler in the air---like the U S navy pilots do when taking off from an aircraft carrier.

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## Naif al Hilali

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I should have been more clear in my inquiry---. Taking off with two tanks with minimal fuel---full weapons load---and then filling up the tanks thru a refueler in the air---like the U S navy pilots do when taking off from an aircraft carrier.


Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Fault is in my comprehension, brother. I don't know of the practice you mention.

I know the F-/A-18As suffered from short range even when loaded up with two or three tanks, and had to be almost empty of fuel and not carrying more than two 1000-pounder bombs and missiles in order to land. The F/A-18E has better range despite suffering from high drag due to its canted wing tanks but can bring back 4,000 pounds+ payload and fuel (total up to 9,000 pounds) to the aircraft carrier.

However, these have to do with landing weights; the catapult assisted takeoff weights for both are pretty generous, at around 50,000 and 60,000+ pounds, respectively, for most situations. So, they can takeoff with three full tanks and 2,000+ or 4,000+ bomb load (respectively) with some ease.

To alleviate the short range of the fighters, usually a fully fueled F/A-18 with a buddy refueling pack will takeoff first and transfer fuel to a flight of armed F/A-18s some distance from the carrier, in order to replenish the attack fighters' fuel to help compensate for the few thousand pounds fuel used in takeoff, climb, and initial cruise.

The buddy tankers are also flown off the carrier first when aircraft are returning from their mission, so that they can fuel up fighters that are low on fuel or use up too much fuel in aborted landings.

The F-14 had sufficient range and I don't remember an operational case where it had to employ buddy-refueling (not from other F-14s; S-3 Vikings [EDIT: A-6 Intruders, primarily] were used back then, I believe), out of operational necessity. Some F-14s probably did, even if my limited knowledge has no recollection of it.

The F-14's combat mission chart summary below:







The F-16 has sufficient thrust to takeoff with full fuel loads and a 4,000 lbs+ bomb load. _Their is no operational need for a heavier bomb load _(For heavier loads, an F-15E would be used). The USAF also considers combat range and persistence from the fighter's last refueling to be more pertinent. There would, however, be _no operational necessity for a fighter to takeoff with empty drop tanks_.

However, this is where your question becomes somewhat prescient. The F-16 can also employ 600 US gallon drop tanks in place of the 370 gallon wing tanks. An F-16 with two 600 gallon wing tanks, a 300 gallon centerline tank, 4,000 pounds bomb load, missiles, pods, and other expendables happens to exceed the maximum allowed takeoff weights (37,500 pounds for an F-16A model, 48,000 pounds for the F-16C block 50 with CFTs; the UAE's Block 60s have further beefed-up landing gear to allow a 52,000 gross takeoff weight and can actually handle this payload).

In this scenario, the F-16 would takeoff with half-filled 600-gallon wing tanks and top-up from tankers before entering the war zone. The USAF does not employ this tactic but the Israeli Air Force might, in order to hit very long-range targets.

I hope I have understood and answered your question. Forgive me, otherwise.

Allah keep everyone safe.

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## Raider 21

Naif al Hilali said:


> Study used as a noun to denote the details apparent in the image of the object pictured (A study can be pictorial, graphic, or tabular as well as being verbal):


Oh ok. I thought details of the pic were missing or something. Thanks

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## Naif al Hilali

Naif al Hilali said:


> The F-16 has sufficient thrust to takeoff with full fuel loads and a 4,000 lbs+ bomb load. _Their is no operational need for a heavier bomb load _(For heavier loads, an F-15E would be used). The USAF also considers combat range and persistence from the fighter's last refueling to be more pertinent. There would, however, be _no operational necessity for a fighter to takeoff with empty drop tanks_.


Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Not to drone on but there is another factor I neglected to mention:

Every pound of fuel transferred air-to-air, consumes many pounds as much fuel as originally lifted from the ground (think of the fuel consumed by the refueling aircraft here). You also have to launch as much as twice as many resources (aircraft) and use up more manpower for this 'simple' act.

So, there is an operational demerit for launching with less fuel than you can safely takeoff with.

Allah keep everyone safe.

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## Naif al Hilali

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Continuing on from our discussion of the F-16's range analyses, the JF-17's ferry range analysis has been posted at:

https://defence.pk/threads/jf-17-thunder-made-for-the-paf.398270/page-24#post-8928876

Hifz u kum Allah

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## MastanKhan

Naif al Hilali said:


> Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem
> 
> Not to drone on but there is another factor I neglected to mention:
> 
> Every pound of fuel transferred air-to-air, consumes many pounds as much fuel as originally lifted from the ground (think of the fuel consumed by the refueling aircraft here). You also have to launch as much as twice as many resources (aircraft) and use up more manpower for this 'simple' act.
> 
> So, there is an operational demerit for launching with less fuel than you can safely takeoff with.
> 
> Allah keep everyone safe.



Hi,

There was a time when rifles could be loaded with one bullet only---and when the 5 bullet magazine came into design---the battle scenario change---.

From 5 it went to 10---15---20---30---and so on---. There are always operational demerits---but what are the gains resulting from the action.

A military in itself is an operational demerit---.

So---when are you going to admit who you really are---? I mean to say that your answers are so full of technical -- that even @Khafee and and @Indus Falcon want to know who you really are---am I right or no---!

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## Khafee

Naif al Hilali said:


> Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem
> 
> Not to drone on but there is another factor I neglected to mention:
> 
> Every pound of fuel transferred air-to-air, consumes many pounds as much fuel as originally lifted from the ground (think of the fuel consumed by the refueling aircraft here). You also have to launch as much as twice as many resources (aircraft) and use up more manpower for this 'simple' act.
> 
> So, there is an operational demerit for launching with less fuel than you can safely takeoff with.
> 
> Allah keep everyone safe.


Would be nice if you gave this forum a little bit of sanitized info about your background.

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## Naif al Hilali

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There was a time when rifles could be loaded with one bullet only---and when the 5 bullet magazine came into design---the battle scenario change---.
> 
> From 5 it went to 10---15---20---30---and so on---. There are always operational demerits---but what are the gains resulting from the action.
> ...
> So---when are you going to admit who you really are---? I mean to say that your answers are so full of technical -- that even @Khafee and and @Indus Falcon want to know who you really are---am I right or no---!


Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Brother, I have to re-iterate that I am extremely undeserving of all your compliments but I humbly thank you for them. I am just an amateur student of the history of science and technology (and nations and mankind in general). I was only ever good at Math and a little bit of Physics, but I can't even do basic calculus anymore.

I love reading about the lives and careers of people such as Richard Feynman, Clarence "Kelly" Johnson, Colonel John Boyd, Harry Hillaker, and Soichiro Honda. You quickly learn to be humbled when you realize the quickness, sureness, and completeness of the critical thought processes and decision making of these geniuses. It would be extremely educational to have been Soichiro's janitor in the sixties and seventies. He was indeed a loving and gracious employer as well as being the pre-eminent automotive genius of the 20th century.

I registered on this forum because I have been trying to study (for over four decades now) why certain aircraft (and other machines) are shaped like this and not like that, why they are equipped with certain devices, and what certain configurations posit for their performance and capabilities. Having a place to jot down my thoughts and being corrected on them, seemed to be the best way to learn of my misconceptions and shallowness of knowledge.

If I had been a pilot or an aeronautical engineer, I would tell you; but I also would have no need to do all this, and could have safely and anonymously continued to read the musings of Allamas Oscar, johnwill, and Gums.

Now, to the question at hand. I intend to take a little bit of time and to hold my peace afterwards on this thread, Insha'Allah. You are probably more knowledgeable of the Lightweight Fighter Program (LWF) and the development of the General Dynamics YF-16 and F-16:






The YF-16 is to the left. Pursuant to Colonel Boyd's experiences in Vietnam, he developed his Energy-Maneuverability theory in conjunction with academia; and, afterwards, he went on to fight for the introduction of a suitable air-superiority fighter for the USAF. He felt the F-15 that was subsequently developed was still too big and pushed for a little fighter with the biggest engine, highest possible fuel fraction, and no radar (given the pathetic performance of radars and radar-guided missiles in the 1960s (and even until around 1980).

The design requirements of the LWF were to fly 500 nautical miles, engage in air-to-air combat with cannon and missiles, and return to base. The YF-16 exceeded this range requirement by 40% and was more maneuverable than the other competitor, the Northrop YF-17 (subsequently developed into the McDonnell Douglas F/A-18A Hornet and later, the Boeing F/A-18E Super Hornet for the US Navy).






The F-16's E-M chart vs. the aircraft it was designed to beat, the F-4 Phantom and Mig-21:






We rehash this old history to stress the first point that the F-16 (and the F/A-18 despite whatever their monikers might claim) were designed to be air-superiority fighters and not attack aircraft or bomb trucks (more on this later). The F/A-18, with McDonnell Douglas's historic maritime expertise, became a delightful handler in carrier operations - landings were greatly eased by its low-speed handling thanks to the higher-aspect ratio (think wider rather than deeper) wings and twin-tail planforms. These (and the engine placement) also made it a ground-breaker in high-alpha nose-pointing ability, opening up new avenues in air combat.

The Blended Wing Body (BWB) planform of the F-16 was a genius stroke in #1 increasing volumetric efficiency (the internal fuel fraction was as good as deltas or fatter attack-type designs), #2 producing the most lift with the least amount of drag (at all subsonic and transonic speeds), and #3 the under-fuselage air intake (incidentally) reduced Radar Cross Section (RCS) greatly by hiding the turbofan blades (from a possible 5 square meters to about 1 square meters without external stores).

The short landing gears predicated by these design choices meant that they could not be beefed up to withstand the jarring impacts of carrier landings, and the aircraft could not be converted successfully for maritime operations (landing speeds and flare requirements would probably have been undesirable, in any case).

But, for land operations, here was a fighter that could fly farther, be harder to detect, turn harder and for much longer, and need much fewer resources than its contemporaries (and is still competitive today in everything but stealth and the high-speed, high-altitude corners of the performance envelope).

Henry Hilaker recognizing that the F-16 production line would stop at 300 if it was marketed solely as an air-superiority fighter, increased wing area from 280 square feet to 300 square feet, added two hardpoints (GD later beefing up the middle point for heavier weapons and adding chin stations for targeting and navigation pods), and enlarged the nose to accept a radar, much to the chagrin of Colonel Boyd. The aircraft lost a little bit of its agility (and a little bit more when the big tail was introduced to offset the chin points, and the radar and avionics weight gains moved the Center of Gravity forward, reducing the aircraft's pitch instability and most of the lift produced by the tail).

However, the resulting aircraft sold in numbers exceeding 4,000 and was adapted to every fighter / attack role under the Sun, from Close Air Support (CAS) to Deep Strike to Suppression / Destruction of Enemy Air Defenses. The USAF never actually used the F-16 for air superiority, just for everything else, save as a transport or an air-refueler.

The F-16's highly-loaded wing, and more importantly its relaxed static stability, made it an ideal low-level bomb-delivery platform. It was as good and stable a platform, if not better, than dedicated aircraft designed for the task such as the Vought A-7 Corsair, Grumman A-6 Intruder, General Dynamics F-111, Panavia Tornado, and Sepecat Jaguar.

Despite its precision attack capability, if you need to use it as a bomb truck, the F-16 is capable of accurately delivering twelve 500 or 750 pound bombs as the PAF aircraft below is doing.






A more representative load would be four 2,000 or 2,400 pound bombs to take out reinforced structures or tightly-enclosed troop formations (less likely, maybe barracks). It can deliver this payload as far as 300 nautical miles.

The question in your mind is why don't we see such payloads operationally, like the F-4s, F-105s, A-6s, and A-7s of the Vietnam War. A good read on the history of weapon delivery and tactics would be the book "Sierra Hotel - Flying Air Force Fighters in the Decade after Vietnam" by C.R. Anderegg. Please Google for and download it.

You will see the woefulness of the F-4 tactics and the need to deliver eight bombs at a time and still not hit anything (the F-105 Thud and F-111 were better in this regard; the PAF's favored possible acquisition, the A-7, was as excellent as the F-111 and much more frugal and maintainable).

Now, the purpose of bombing is to destroy your targets and not to make lilies in the fields around them. Over the target (or when involved in air combat), 40 seconds is a long time, even when you have air superiority. There is a reason for an upper limit of two minutes afterburner combat in our examples. The pilot is usually so fatigued at this point and so much fuel has been consumed that it is better to just head back home.

Combat experience has shown that it is usually not feasible (you won't have the time) to hit more than two targets in a mission. Even in the (supposed) absence of enemy air defenses, a second pass by an attacking formation is unwise to be attempted (at least from the same direction). Usually, even with good target identification and targeting, three to four delivered munitions is the upper limit that would normally be delivered. And, sometimes you come back without releasing anything (hence, the importance of payload bring back capability, particularly for Navy fighters).

It is more important to have the correct payload for your mission. Please see the various weapons loadouts for the F-15E and you will rarely see more than four bombs. The F-16XL ("F-16XL Elegance in Flight" is another good download) and the F-15E Strike Eagle were both designed to carry twelve (and as much as sixteen) 750 pound bombs, and they can deliver these weapon loads out to 500 nautical miles easily.






Interesting and educational to read Hilaker's comments on page 11 of the attached interview (downloaded from Code One magazine; despite what he says, please keep in mind that the F-16XL still had unresolved controllability issues when the Strike Eagle was chosen - itself not a great low-level attack aircraft, though that point became moot later when all bombing was switched to medium-altitudes).

Tactically, it has been found to be better to send a multi-ship formation of fighters with two to four deliverable munitions, precision navigation and targeting capabilities, and the ability to evade enemy defenses and / or fight their way in and out of contested airspace.

Their is a reason the PAF would prefer an Su-35 in the anti-shipping role over the Su-34 or JH-7. They might actually like the F-16 for this (better for the logistics train) but cannot integrate modern longer-range weapons beyond the Harpoon here.

Building your force around one or two multi-role types pays huge dividends during a war also. We have to remember that the enemy will be attacking us as well, destroying our infrastructure, bombing our airfields and our fuel and ammunition reserves, and killing our personnel.

The survivable (or 'victorious') force will be the one that has a large bank of trained pilots for its aircraft types, whose fuel and weapons reserves (and airfields) are sufficiently distributed, and whose aircraft are adaptable to as many tasks as possible, and are plentiful, light, and frugal enough to take off from half-destroyed airbases, use as little as possible of precious JP-4/5, and be effectively able to take the fight to the enemy.

When you are down to your last F-16, by all means, ditch your drop tanks, put on a dozen bombs, and fly and fight until your wings fall off.

Anyway, that is the limit of my admittedly extremely limited knowledge. Please download the books mentioned here (they are excellent reads) and the three attachments with this post.

Allah keep everyone safe.

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## MastanKhan

Naif al Hilali said:


> Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem
> 
> Brother, I have to re-iterate that I am extremely undeserving of all your compliments but I humbly thank you for them. I am just an amateur student of the history of science and technology (and nations and mankind in general). I was only ever good at Math and a little bit of Physics, but I can't even do basic calculus anymore.
> 
> I love reading about the lives and careers of people such as Richard Feynman, Clarence "Kelly" Johnson, Colonel John Boyd, Harry Hillaker, and Soichiro Honda. You quickly learn to be humbled when you realize the quickness, sureness, and completeness of the critical thought processes and decision making of these geniuses. It would be extremely educational to have been Soichiro's janitor in the sixties and seventies. He was indeed a loving and gracious employer as well as being the pre-eminent automotive genius of the 20th century.
> 
> I registered on this forum because I have been trying to study (for over four decades now) why certain aircraft (and other machines) are shaped like this and not like that, why they are equipped with certain devices, and what certain configurations posit for their performance and capabilities. Having a place to jot down my thoughts and being corrected on them, seemed to be the best way to learn of my misconceptions and shallowness of knowledge.
> 
> If I had been a pilot or an aeronautical engineer, I would tell you; but I also would have no need to do all this, and could have safely and anonymously continued to read the musings of Allamas Oscar, johnwill, and Gums.
> 
> Now, to the question at hand. I intend to take a little bit of time and to hold my peace afterwards on this thread, Insha'Allah. You are probably more knowledgeable of the Lightweight Fighter Program (LWF) and the development of the General Dynamics YF-16 and F-16:
> 
> View attachment 354308
> 
> 
> The YF-16 is to the left. Pursuant to Colonel Boyd's experiences in Vietnam, he developed his Energy-Maneuverability theory in conjunction with academia; and, afterwards, he went on to fight for the introduction of a suitable air-superiority fighter for the USAF. He felt the F-15 that was subsequently developed was still too big and pushed for a little fighter with the biggest engine, highest possible fuel fraction, and no radar (given the pathetic performance of radars and radar-guided missiles in the 1960s (and even until around 1980).
> 
> The design requirements of the LWF were to fly 500 nautical miles, engage in air-to-air combat with cannon and missiles, and return to base. The YF-16 exceeded this range requirement by 40% and was more maneuverable than the other competitor, the Northrop YF-17 (subsequently developed into the McDonnell Douglas F/A-18A Hornet and later, the Boeing F/A-18E Super Hornet for the US Navy).
> 
> View attachment 354313
> 
> 
> The F-16's E-M chart vs. the aircraft it was designed to beat, the F-4 Phantom and Mig-21:
> 
> View attachment 354315
> 
> 
> We rehash this old history to stress the first point that the F-16 (and the F/A-18 despite whatever their monikers might claim) were designed to be air-superiority fighters and not attack aircraft or bomb trucks (more on this later). The F/A-18, with McDonnell Douglas's historic maritime expertise, became a delightful handler in carrier operations - landings were greatly eased by its low-speed handling thanks to the higher-aspect ratio (think wider rather than deeper) wings and twin-tail planforms. These (and the engine placement) also made it a ground-breaker in high-alpha nose-pointing ability, opening up new avenues in air combat.
> 
> The Blended Wing Body (BWB) planform of the F-16 was a genius stroke in #1 increasing volumetric efficiency (the internal fuel fraction was as good as deltas or fatter attack-type designs), #2 producing the most lift with the least amount of drag (at all subsonic and transonic speeds), and #3 the under-fuselage air intake (incidentally) reduced Radar Cross Section (RCS) greatly by hiding the turbofan blades (from a possible 5 square meters to about 1 square meters without external stores).
> 
> The short landing gears predicated by these design choices meant that they could not be beefed up to withstand the jarring impacts of carrier landings, and the aircraft could not be converted successfully for maritime operations (landing speeds and flare requirements would probably have been undesirable, in any case).
> 
> But, for land operations, here was a fighter that could fly farther, be harder to detect, turn harder and for much longer, and need much fewer resources than its contemporaries (and is still competitive today in everything but stealth and the high-speed, high-altitude corners of the performance envelope).
> 
> Henry Hilaker recognizing that the F-16 production line would stop at 300 if it was marketed solely as an air-superiority fighter, increased wing area from 280 square feet to 300 square feet, added two hardpoints (GD later beefing up the middle point for heavier weapons and adding chin stations for targeting and navigation pods), and enlarged the nose to accept a radar, much to the chagrin of Colonel Boyd. The aircraft lost a little bit of its agility (and a little bit more when the big tail was introduced to offset the chin points, and the radar and avionics weight gains moved the Center of Gravity forward, reducing the aircraft's pitch instability and most of the lift produced by the tail).
> 
> However, the resulting aircraft sold in numbers exceeding 4,000 and was adapted to every fighter / attack role under the Sun, from Close Air Support (CAS) to Deep Strike to Suppression / Destruction of Enemy Air Defenses. The USAF never actually used the F-16 for air superiority, just for everything else, save as a transport or an air-refueler.
> 
> The F-16's highly-loaded wing, and more importantly its relaxed static stability, made it an ideal low-level bomb-delivery platform. It was as good and stable a platform, if not better, than dedicated aircraft designed for the task such as the Vought A-7 Corsair, Grumman A-6 Intruder, General Dynamics F-111, Panavia Tornado, and Sepecat Jaguar.
> 
> Despite its precision attack capability, if you need to use it as a bomb truck, the F-16 is capable of accurately delivering twelve 500 or 750 pound bombs as the PAF aircraft below is doing.
> 
> View attachment 354326
> 
> 
> A more representative load would be four 2,000 or 2,400 pound bombs to take out reinforced structures or tightly-enclosed troop formations (less likely, maybe barracks). It can deliver this payload as far as 300 nautical miles.
> 
> The question in your mind is why don't we see such payloads operationally, like the F-4s, F-105s, A-6s, and A-7s of the Vietnam War. A good read on the history of weapon delivery and tactics would be the book "Sierra Hotel - Flying Air Force Fighters in the Decade after Vietnam" by C.R. Anderegg. Please Google for and download it.
> 
> You will see the woefulness of the F-4 tactics and the need to deliver eight bombs at a time and still not hit anything (the F-105 Thud and F-111 were better in this regard; the PAF's favored possible acquisition, the A-7, was as excellent as the F-111 and much more frugal and maintainable).
> 
> Now, the purpose of bombing is to destroy your targets and not to make lilies in the fields around them. Over the target (or when involved in air combat), 40 seconds is a long time, even when you have air superiority. There is a reason for an upper limit of two minutes afterburner combat in our examples. The pilot is usually so fatigued at this point and so much fuel has been consumed that it is better to just head back home.
> 
> Combat experience has shown that it is usually not feasible (you won't have the time) to hit more than two targets in a mission. Even in the (supposed) absence of enemy air defenses, a second pass by an attacking formation is unwise to be attempted (at least from the same direction). Usually, even with good target identification and targeting, three to four delivered munitions is the upper limit that would normally be delivered. And, sometimes you come back without releasing anything (hence, the importance of payload bring back capability, particularly for Navy fighters).
> 
> It is more important to have the correct payload for your mission. Please see the various weapons loadouts for the F-15E and you will rarely see more than four bombs. The F-16XL ("F-16XL Elegance in Flight" is another good download) and the F-15E Strike Eagle were both designed to carry twelve (and as much as sixteen) 750 pound bombs, and they can deliver these weapon loads out to 500 nautical miles easily.
> 
> View attachment 354327
> 
> 
> Interesting and educational to read Hilaker's comments on page 11 of the attached interview (downloaded from Code One magazine; despite what he says, please keep in mind that the F-16XL still had unresolved controllability issues when the Strike Eagle was chosen - itself not a great low-level attack aircraft, though that point became moot later when all bombing was switched to medium-altitudes).
> 
> Tactically, it has been found to be better to send a multi-ship formation of fighters with two to four deliverable munitions, precision navigation and targeting capabilities, and the ability to evade enemy defenses and / or fight their way in and out of contested airspace.
> 
> Their is a reason the PAF would prefer an Su-35 in the anti-shipping role over the Su-34 or JH-7. They might actually like the F-16 for this (better for the logistics train) but cannot integrate modern longer-range weapons beyond the Harpoon here.
> 
> Building your force around one or two multi-role types pays huge dividends during a war also. We have to remember that the enemy will be attacking us as well, destroying our infrastructure, bombing our airfields and our fuel and ammunition reserves, and killing our personnel.
> 
> The survivable (or 'victorious') force will be the one that has a large bank of trained pilots for its aircraft types, whose fuel and weapons reserves (and airfields) are sufficiently distributed, and whose aircraft are adaptable to as many tasks as possible, and are plentiful, light, and frugal enough to take off from half-destroyed airbases, use as little as possible of precious JP-4/5, and be effectively able to take the fight to the enemy.
> 
> When you are down to your last F-16, by all means, ditch your drop tanks, put on a dozen bombs, and fly and fight until your wings fall off.
> 
> Anyway, that is the limit of my admittedly extremely limited knowledge. Please download the books mentioned here (they are excellent reads) and the three attachments with this post.
> 
> Allah keep everyone safe.




Hi,

When I joined my automotive engineering school in the U S in the 80's---it took me a long time to comprehend why the americans design the cars the way they do and why the german and swedes and the japanese design their cars as they do.

Took me awhile to learn that engineering technology design and function is a frame of mind---your ethnicity and your environment determines what you are going to produce and how your brain works.

Why the engineers from one nation build helicopters whose rotors turn clockwise and the engineers from another nation build them to go anti clockwise---.

Why the americans care less about the fancy italian or british expensive rifles and shotguns and prefer their own less expensive ones focusing more on shooting straight rather than the price.

Now I am going to read what you wrote one more time. Thank you.

Hi,

Thank you for a wonderful post on strike aircraft. In 1997 or 98 the chip manufacturing companies were wondering if their business of producing microchips is coming to an end---.

Modern warfare is a different warfare---. The smart computer and sensor in the aircraft would be able to tell the pilot---if the targets he chose on the first strike were hit or not---and if a second pass can be made---those targets that were hit would be overlooked and those not hit would be struck---so a possibility would be that an intelligent and smarter and smaller bomb maybe and would the weapon of choice.

Lighter military hardware in higher numbers has overcome heavier military hardware---but when you are facing the problem of a heavier military hardware in higher number---then the general rule of good utility in lesser numbers overcoming the odds does not work.

Wars are a brutal business---sometimes it is not only the machine---but the awe behind that machine that determines the result of the combat---the fear factor---makes many an operator make basic and fundamental mistakes---that is why it is not necessary to have the most functional equipment---you ought to have a " shining sword " in your arsenal as well.

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## Naif al Hilali

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

The F-35 (and other 21st century fighters under development) have been designed to stealthily creep up to their target, take their time, and take out as many targets in one sortie as possible.

They can thus carry and use up to eight Small Diameter Bombs (or six Brimstone or ASSM missiles for the Rafale et. al.). Alternatively, two 2,000 pound JDAMs are used for hardened targets.

Conversely, AV-8B Harriers are rarely seen with more than one 500 pounder, F/A-18Cs with more than two 500 or 1,000 pound-class munitions, AH-1s with more than four missiles, ...

On July 10, 2006 a four-ship of F-15Es based at Lakenheath demonstrated the bombing of 16 targets with SDBs in one pass (on a training range).

So, you are right - needs and priorities do change.

Hilaker said it best in his 1991 Code One interview (attached with my previous post):

"With the F-16XL, we reduced the drag of the weapon carriage by sixty-three percent. The drag of the XL with the same fuel and twice as many bombs is a little over thirty percent less than today’s F-16 when you load it up. This points up a fallacy that has existed for thirty years, and I’m concerned that it may still exist. Our designs assume clean airplanes. Bombs and all the other crap are added on as an afterthought. These add-ons not only increase drag but they also ruin the handling qualities. They should be considered from the beginning.

*We ought to start with the weapon. That’s really the final product.* We ought to determine what the weapon is and what it will take to deliver it and then do the airplane. Now, we design the airplane and smash the weapon on it."

Anyway, i have agreed with you. If you don't mind, I will close this chapter here and not go off-topic any further.

Regards,

Allah keep everyone safe

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## Windjammer

PAF Block-52 C & D Vipers on Nellis flight line during Red Flag earlier this year.

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## Windjammer

Falcon preparing for night hunt.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> PAF Block-52 C & D Vipers on Nellis flight line during Red Flag earlier this year.
> 
> 
> View attachment 354738


Those look like American jets, the PAF jets had CFTs on them for the entire detachment for the exercise.


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## Khafee

Knuckles said:


> Those look like American jets, the PAF jets had CFTs on them for the entire detachment for the exercise.


Blk52 have CFT's the rest don't. Secondly, look at the Griffin in the background.

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## Raider 21

Arrows "601" with a student and IP heading out for a training mission.

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## Naif al Hilali

Naif al Hilali said:


> Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem
> 
> Continuing on from our discussion of the F-16's range analyses, the JF-17's ferry range analysis has been posted at:
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/jf-17-thunder-made-for-the-paf.398270/page-24#post-8928876
> 
> Hifz u kum Allah


Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Moderators were kind enough to make a new thread for me. Please find the JF-17 Ferry (and later Combat) Range Analysis at:

https://defence.pk/threads/jf-17s-ferry-and-combat-ranges.462726/

Allah keep everyone safe

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## GriffinsRule

The Red Flag picture has USAF F-16s with the GE engines clearly visible

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## Naif al Hilali

F-16 General Electric Engine Exhaust Nozzle





F-16 Pratt & Whitney Nozzle

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## Windjammer

PAF F-16 pumping out flares as it goes into vertical rolls.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1109363085848169

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## Raider 21

Departing at Masroor

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## Raider 21

Heading out for a photo-chase mission at Sargodha

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## Naif al Hilali

Naif al Hilali said:


> Mission Profile III - Long-Range Interception (/Air Superiority/Fighter Escort):
> 
> F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
> Internal Fuel + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Four AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
> 36,500 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
> 12,000 pounds [6,700 liters] fuel
> - 500 pounds taxi & takeoff
> - 900 pounds climbout to 33,000 feet covering 50 nautical miles
> - 4,300 pounds cruise 600 nautical miles
> - 2,000 pounds jettison tanks, up to five minutes combat (including two minutes in afterburner) @ 20,000 feet
> - 3,300 pounds climbout and cruise 600 nautical miles back to base
> - 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
> * 600 nautical miles*
> 
> General Dynamics Stated Range for YF-16/F-16A Air-Superiority Mission with Three Tanks & Four AIM-9s: _*700+ nautical miles*_---


Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Mission Wedge was incorrectly set up here. Please note the correction below:

Mission Profile III - Long-Range Interception (/Air Superiority/Fighter Escort):

F-16C Block 50/52 (19,700 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
Internal Fuel + Two 370 Gallon Drop Tanks + Four AIM-120 AMRAAM + Two AIM-9 Sidewinders
36,500 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
12,000 pounds [6,700 liters] fuel
- 500 pounds taxi & takeoff
- 900 pounds climbout to 33,000 feet covering 50 nautical miles
- 4,200 pounds cruise 580 nautical miles
- 2,000 pounds jettison tanks, up to five minutes combat (including two minutes in afterburner) @ 20,000 feet
- 3,400 pounds climbout and cruise 640 nautical miles back to base 
- 1,000 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
*630 nautical miles*

General Dynamics Stated Range for YF-16/F-16A Air-Superiority Mission with Three Tanks & Four AIM-9s: 700+ nautical miles

Sorry for the error.

Hifz u kum Allah


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## fatman17

Pakistani Air Force F-16 Pilots
42 Pakistani Air Force pilots have reached 1,000 flying hours or more in the F-16 Fighting Falcon so far.

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## khanasifm

Jordanian F16s?????


Could not find listing for the F16 for sale, have they found a new home or what?

http://www.rjaf.mil.jo/index.php/en/organization/announcements.html


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## fatman17

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/804024061701586945

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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> Jordanian F16s?????
> 
> 
> Could not find listing for the F16 for sale, have they found a new home or what?
> 
> http://www.rjaf.mil.jo/index.php/en/organization/announcements.html



No sale so far


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## syed zia Hassan

I wish PAF Base Masror and Faisal to be Lush Green .around Runway and out side too...did any one thing about it..in Karachi.

It will be Great work to Upgrade these F-16s Orion and C-130. It will be nice to get C-130 J


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## -BAJWA-

@Windjammer Today, i spotted a F-16 with yellow paint on belly in Sargodha. It was strange for me because PAF F-16s are painted in grey/dark grey color scheme. Can you tell about this ?


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## Signalian

Khafee said:


> Blk52 have CFT's the rest don't. Secondly, look at the Griffin in the background.



Any chance F-16 can carry more than 6 AAM's?

As far as i know, PAF doesnt have any aircraft that can carry more than 6 AAM's in air, and i find this alarming.


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## syed_yusuf

Sarge said:


> Any chance F-16 can carry more than 6 AAM's?
> 
> As far as i know, PAF doesnt have any aircraft that can carry more than 6 AAM's in air, and i find this alarming.


Why is this alarming??

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## Signalian

syed_yusuf said:


> Why is this alarming??


A single SU 30 can carry upto 8-10 AAM. 
A single Rafale can carry upto 8-10 AAM. 

4 X SU30 can carry 32-40 AAM. 4 X Rafale can carry 32-40 AAM. Total missiles carried by 8 aircrafts = 64-80.
VS
4 X F-16 can carry 24 AAM. 4 X JF-17 can carry 24 AAM. Total missiles carried by 8 aircrafts = 48.

In order to match this scenario, PAF will need to put more aircraft in air unless JF-17 uses MER (Multiple ejector Rack) which supports AAM. Is MER for JF-17 in use?

Now my confusion was F-16 Load out.This is a diagram from F-16.net







It shows F-16 carrying 8 AAM , the extra 2 AAM on stations 7A and 3A.

But stations 3A/7A vs. 3/7 are confusing. 

Stations 3 and 7 are the air to ground station electrical/mechanical interface where the wing weapons pylon mounts. 

Stations 3A and 7A have an electrical interface at a different location (under the flap seal) for air to air missiles, with a second set of mechanical interface for the under wing adaptor, which supports the LAU-129 or 16S210 (AIM-9) launcher. 

This takes us to the LAU-127, LAU-128 and LAU-129 launchers. All these launchers support AIM-9 and Aim-120.
http://www.marvingroup.com/images/uploads/documents/MRL_Flyer_-_Final_Draft.pdf

Correct me if im wrong, my understanding is, either station 3 and 7 OR station 3A and 7A can be utilised at a single time. I have not seen PAF F-16's carrying 8 AAM. 
.


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## Shabi1

Sarge said:


> A single SU 30 can carry upto 8-10 AAM.
> A single Rafale can carry upto 8-10 AAM.
> 
> 4 X SU30 can carry 32-40 AAM. 4 X Rafale can carry 32-40 AAM. Total missiles carried by 8 aircrafts = 64-80.
> VS
> 4 X F-16 can carry 24 AAM. 4 X JF-17 can carry 24 AAM. Total missiles carried by 8 aircrafts = 48.
> 
> In order to match this scenario, PAF will need to put more aircraft in air unless JF-17 uses MER (Multiple ejector Rack) which supports AAM. Is MER for JF-17 in use?
> 
> Now my confusion was F-16 Load out.This is a diagram from F-16.net
> 
> View attachment 357467
> 
> 
> It shows F-16 carrying 8 AAM , the extra 2 AAM on stations 7A and 3A.
> 
> But stations 3A/7A vs. 3/7 are confusing.
> 
> Stations 3 and 7 are the air to ground station electrical/mechanical interface where the wing weapons pylon mounts.
> 
> Stations 3A and 7A have an electrical interface at a different location (under the flap seal) for air to air missiles, with a second set of mechanical interface for the under wing adaptor, which supports the LAU-129 or 16S210 (AIM-9) launcher.
> 
> This takes us to the LAU-127, LAU-128 and LAU-129 launchers. All these launchers support AIM-9 and Aim-120.
> http://www.marvingroup.com/images/uploads/documents/MRL_Flyer_-_Final_Draft.pdf
> 
> Correct me if im wrong, my understanding is, either station 3 and 7 OR station 3A and 7A can be utilised at a single time. I have not seen PAF F-16's carrying 8 AAM.
> .



Air combat strategy is not like video games. If it were the case all air forces needed were cargo planes modified for missile delivery truck role. Aircraft don't carry full loads in air superiority roles, those are marketing photo shoots. They lose maneuverability and range.

Russian military strategy has been to fire multiple missiles at single targets from a very long range thats why they were built to carry more missiles. Greater the distance, lower the hit probability. For western aircraft it has been more single shot at a time at medium range. However another factor in a Pak vs India scenario is since both airforces have aircrafts with updated electronics they will be jamming each other, putting a question mark on BVR engagement reliability. My own personal opinion is since both sides will be fielding jamming capability, the effective missiles will be IR WVR.

If going by missile truck logic, the most innovative solution would be modifying K-8 AWACs to carry/guide China's MACH6 300km AA missile.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

The missile carrige capability will self resolve over years with greater induction of Newer blocks and higher numbers for JF17 thunder

The present technology onboard is sufficient to take out those 8 Intruding jets easily with minimal effort


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## Signalian

Shabi1 said:


> Air combat strategy is not like video games. If it were the case all air forces needed were cargo planes modified for missile delivery truck role. Aircraft don't carry full loads in air superiority roles, those are marketing photo shoots. They lose maneuverability and range.
> 
> Russian military strategy has been to fire multiple missiles at single targets from a very long range thats why they were built to carry more missiles. Greater the distance, lower the hit probability. For western aircraft it has been more single shot at a time at medium range. However another factor in a Pak vs India scenario is since both airforces have aircrafts with updated electronics they will be jamming each other, putting a question mark on BVR engagement reliability. My own personal opinion is since both sides will be fielding jamming capability, the effective missiles will be IR WVR.
> 
> If going by missile truck logic, the most innovative solution would be modifying K-8 AWACs to carry/guide China's MACH6 300km AA missile.


Thanks for your post but still doesnt help, no advantage for PAF.


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## araz

Sarge said:


> Thanks for your post but still doesnt help, no advantage for PAF.


There will never be an advantage in numbers or even technology for PAF. The adversary has more buying power and will continue to field better hardware. However war is not JUST about better hardware. It is multi faceted and involves training and discipline of personnel. What we have continues to provide us a critical deterrent value which makes an incursion so expensive that the victory at the end would not be worth the effort.
We cannot and must not engage with India on numbers game. However we can only improve the quality of our personnel and armaments as they become available to us.
A

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## Raider 21




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## Imran Khan

Knuckles said:


> View attachment 357655


any details of this pic sir? as i know 84710 is MLUed


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## Raider 21

Imran Khan said:


> any details of this pic sir? as i know 84710 is MLUed


This was at Highmark 2010

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## Swordfish

Wanted to know what is the percentage of availabilities of pak fighter aircrafts at any given point of time. Hope it's not a silly question.


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## Storm Force

Shabi1 said:


> My own personal opinion is since both sides will be fielding jamming capability, the effective missiles will be IR WVR.



I 100% agree that BVR kill probability is too low to be useful . I was reading beyond 50km kill probability drops to 10% which will require ten missles to down one plane.

IF WVR and medium range up to say 40km remains the key for IAF/PAF then the Indians have a hugh advantage.

In this type of warefare HMD/HMS and TVC engines are absolutely crucial.

The Indians have HMD/HMS on all 4 front line fighters ie SU30MKI /MIG29/MIRAHE2000/5 even LCA

In contrast the only HMS/HMD in PAF is on the new BLOCK 52 F16 ie nothing on Thunder or BLOCK 15 falcons.

Furthermore TVC engines means su30mki angle of engagement is double that of any plane. 

IN A WVR CAMPAIGN IAF will beat PAF easily with bigger fleet , more HMS/HMD equipped planes and TVC engines

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## TOPGUN

Storm Force said:


> I 100% agree that BVR kill probability is too low to be useful . I was reading beyond 50km kill probability drops to 10% which will require ten missles to down one plane.
> 
> IF WVR and medium range up to say 40km remains the key for IAF/PAF then the Indians have a hugh advantage.
> 
> In this type of warefare HMD/HMS and TVC engines are absolutely crucial.
> 
> The Indians have HMD/HMS on all 4 front line fighters ie SU30MKI /MIG29/MIRAHE2000/5 even LCA
> 
> In contrast the only HMS/HMD in PAF is on the new BLOCK 52 F16 ie nothing on Thunder or BLOCK 15 falcons.
> 
> Furthermore TVC engines means su30mki angle of engagement is double that of any plane.
> 
> IN A WVR CAMPAIGN IAF will beat PAF easily with bigger fleet , more HMS/HMD equipped planes and TVC engines




Once again all mighty storm force holds the crystal ball and knows all the out comes of war please inform top brass of IAF and PAF !!

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## Shabi1

Seem pictures of PAF F-16 AM/BM with pilot wearing HMDs similar to Block-52. So that is a capability they now have too.


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## Dazzler

Storm Force said:


> I 100% agree that BVR kill probability is too low to be useful . I was reading beyond 50km kill probability drops to 10% which will require ten missles to down one plane.
> 
> IF WVR and medium range up to say 40km remains the key for IAF/PAF then the Indians have a hugh advantage.
> 
> In this type of warefare HMD/HMS and TVC engines are absolutely crucial.
> 
> The Indians have HMD/HMS on all 4 front line fighters ie SU30MKI /MIG29/MIRAHE2000/5 even LCA
> 
> In contrast the only HMS/HMD in PAF is on the new BLOCK 52 F16 ie nothing on Thunder or BLOCK 15 falcons.
> 
> Furthermore TVC engines means su30mki angle of engagement is double that of any plane.
> 
> IN A WVR CAMPAIGN IAF will beat PAF easily with bigger fleet , more HMS/HMD equipped planes and TVC engines



keep the trash out of this thread. You have been warned multiple times so take heed of things to come while you can.

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## airmarshal

Imran Khan said:


> any details of this pic sir? as i know 84710 is MLUed



If you dont see IFF antenna, the four short stubs in front of canopy glass, its not MLUed. They are also called 'bird cutter' antenna.

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## truthseeker2010

Swordfish said:


> Wanted to know what is the percentage of availabilities of pak fighter aircrafts at any given point of time. Hope it's not a silly question.



between 70 to 80%


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## araz

Swordfish said:


> Well that's very high when more than 60 percent of your F16 don't have spares to fly.


And you are the keeper of our inventory?? Please prove how you have come to this wonderful decision.
A

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## truthseeker2010

Swordfish said:


> Well Jane defence website says that.



where?

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## Naif al Hilali

araz said:


> There will never be an advantage in numbers or even technology for PAF. The adversary has more buying power and will continue to field better hardware. However war is not JUST about better hardware. It is multi faceted and involves training and discipline of personnel. What we have continues to provide us a critical deterrent value which makes an incursion so expensive that the victory at the end would not be worth the effort.
> We cannot and must not engage with India on numbers game. However we can only improve the quality of our personnel and armaments as they become available to us.
> A



@Khafee said:

https://defence.pk/threads/vixen-1000e-aesa-with-irst-showcased-at-ideas.462778/page-13#post-8978045

"Because someone gets very upset, and starts throwing tantrums and false flag ops, goodies come silently and via ambiguous notifications.:


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## Dazzler

Forget the 16s, for jf-17, its more than 90%.

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## Khafee

Naif al Hilali said:


> @Khafee said:
> 
> https://defence.pk/threads/vixen-1000e-aesa-with-irst-showcased-at-ideas.462778/page-13#post-8978045
> 
> "Because someone gets very upset, and starts throwing tantrums and false flag ops, goodies come silently and via ambiguous notifications.:


Don't believe me?

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## Naif al Hilali

Bismillah ir Rhman ar Raheem 

No brother, just spreading your good word as I believe you, oscar, and bilalkhan777 would be the experts in these matters.

Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

Hofz u kum Allah

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## Khafee

Naif al Hilali said:


> Bismillah ir Rhman ar Raheem
> 
> No brother, just spreading your good word as I believe you, oscar, and bilalkhan777 would be the experts in these matters.
> 
> Sorry if it seemed otherwise.
> 
> Hofz u kum Allah


No need to apologize. It's ok. I will PM you as to why I said this.

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## Raider 21




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## volatile

Truly an underdog UAE Block 60 but on a given day will give run for money to every one .In Fact first ones to introduce AESA in the region ,correct me if im wrong


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## Signalian

SkyFlash A2A Missile carried on station 5L (door mounted pylon). SkyFlash had range of 45km and was discontinued in favour of AIM-120. It was derived from Aim-7.




. 



Aim-7 Sparrow carried on station 5R (door mounted pylon). Looks centre line in first glance. It also seems from pic that an A2A missile has been fired which could be an Aim-7 on station 5L..... guess work only.

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## Naif al Hilali

Sarge said:


> SkyFlash A2A Missile carried on station 5L (door mounted pylon). SkyFlash had range of 45km and was discontinued in favour of AIM-120. It was derived from Aim-7.
> View attachment 358668
> .
> 
> 
> 
> Aim-7 Sparrow carried on station 5R (door mounted pylon). Looks centre line in first glance. It also seems from pic that an A2A missile has been fired which could be an Aim-7 on station 5L..... guess work only.
> View attachment 358669

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## Signalian

Naif al Hilali said:


> View attachment 358845


Good find, concern is using stations 5R and 5L. 

It would be interesting if PAF has experimented using these stations for Aim-9 apart from pod installation. If Aim-7 launcher could fit on them then probably Aim-9 launchers could fit too. Lots of factors involved.

This would make F-16 capable of carrying 8 missiles instead of 6.

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## Naif al Hilali

Sarge said:


> Good find, concern is using stations 5R and 5L.
> 
> It would be interesting if PAF has experimented using these stations for Aim-9 apart from pod installation. If Aim-7 launcher could fit on them then probably Aim-9 launchers could fit too. Lots of factors involved.
> 
> This would make F-16 capable of carrying 8 missiles instead of 6.


Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

Station 5L and 5R do not appear in the approved missile loadouts I have. I doubt the mission computer's current software will recognize missiles here even though the databuses are available. My understanding is that a four-missile load for PAF's Air Defense F-16s is probably the standard operational one and even the six-missile load would be the exceptional one during war-time.

Oscar, Kafee, and Bilal Khan 777 would know better.

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## SQ8

Sarge said:


> Good find, concern is using stations 5R and 5L.
> 
> It would be interesting if PAF has experimented using these stations for Aim-9 apart from pod installation. If Aim-7 launcher could fit on them then probably Aim-9 launchers could fit too. Lots of factors involved.
> 
> This would make F-16 capable of carrying 8 missiles instead of 6.


The Skyflash doors were found to interfere with flight characteristics along with pudding needless stress on the air-frame. 

Every weapons has a flight profile after release as well which is also dependant upon the aerodynamics of the aircraft. in simple words, stores need to be able to separate from the aircraft safely 99% of the time and any chance of the following is avoided as best as possible.

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## Naif al Hilali

Oscar said:


> The Skyflash doors were found to interfere with flight characteristics along with pudding needless stress on the air-frame.
> 
> Every weapons has a flight profile after release as well which is also dependant upon the aerodynamics of the aircraft. in simple words, stores need to be able to separate from the aircraft safely 99% of the time and any chance of the following is avoided as best as possible.


Oh, and the AIM-9 being launched off rails as it is, will likely damage the fuselage from 5L and 5R if I am not mistaken. There was a twin-launcher being designed for AIM-120s (stations 3 and 7 I believe) but I do not know if it was ever deployed. Sorry, memory is a little sketchy on these points.

*Dual Missile Rails/Droptanks *

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10483


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## fatman17

Pakistan mulling purchase of 8 used F16A/B's from Jordan.

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan mulling purchase of 8 used F16A/B's from Jordan.


??? Why 8 and what's is the source?


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> ??? Why 8 and what's is the source?



Go to PAF news thread


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## TOPGUN

fatman17 said:


> Pakistan mulling purchase of 8 used F16A/B's from Jordan.




Is this news conformed Fatman17 ?


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## TOPGUN

If these 8 vipers are coming to us then the final number will be at ?


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## HRK

TOPGUN said:


> If these 8 vipers are coming to us then the final number will be at ?



~84

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The author of the Diplomat post had a typo, but he was referring to the 14 ex-Jordanian F-16s the PAF got interested in a while ago. Turkish Aerospace Industries told Defense News that it was in talks with the PAF to get those F-16s upgraded.


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## khanasifm

Is this new report or just old news?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

khanasifm said:


> Is this new report or just old news?


Old news.


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## fatman17

TOPGUN said:


> Is this news conformed Fatman17 ?



I believe so.

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## Zeeshan Farooqi

Thats great.Its going well and good experiance with F16s.


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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## umair86pk

Why 8 when 15 are for sale


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## TOPGUN

umair86pk said:


> Why 8 when 15 are for sale



Many reasons could be only the PAF brass knows the answer to that.


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## fatman17

umair86pk said:


> Why 8 when 15 are for sale



1. Jordan has raised the selling price. 
2. Our own finances.


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## ali_raza

fatman17 said:


> 1. Jordan has raised the selling price.
> 2. Our own finances.


they are taking advantage of the situation after fall of the f16 deal with america.
all economics u know


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## DJ_Viper

fatman17 said:


> 1. Jordan has raised the selling price.
> 2. Our own finances.



Sir, you are trying to pick the 8 that have much less flying hour on them. As the PAF wants to cherry pick from the 15, the Jordanians have raised the price as it would be hard for them to sell the rest of the 7 with much higher flying miles on their airframes.

These are low cost jets due to their age, etc, so the $$$$ isn't an issue. The main issue is the PAF's qualifications of 8 out of 15 due to certain flying mile formula the PAF puts onto jets before acquiring them. Thanks


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## khanasifm

Last time 13 non mlu were for 75 million not sure just for planes or included sqn support ground support and maintanancw eqpt as well but averaged 3000 hours life left

This time it's mlued but av life left is 2K so not sure how much they are asking ?

They can negotiate 2 deals one for 8 and another one for remaining 7 to be executed at a later date to sweeten both , remaining can be flown for 10 years and then used for spares unless paf thinks it's not worth while spending what asking price is

Anyway I am sure they know what they are doing because pa f has been going around everywhere but European f16s were original block 1, 5 and 10 and and the oldest build in early and mid 80s so ...

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## fatman17

DJ_Viper said:


> Sir, you are trying to pick the 8 that have much less flying hour on them. As the PAF wants to cherry pick from the 15, the Jordanians have raised the price as it would be hard for them to sell the rest of the 7 with much higher flying miles on their airframes.
> 
> These are low cost jets due to their age, etc, so the $$$$ isn't an issue. The main issue is the PAF's qualifications of 8 out of 15 due to certain flying mile formula the PAF puts onto the plane before acquiring them. Thanks



True


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## MystryMan

[QUOTE="khanasifm, post: 9019103, member]Last time 13 non mlu were for 75 million not sure just for planes or included sqn support ground support and maintanancw eqpt as well but averaged 3000 hours life left

This time it's mlued but av life left is 2K so not sure how much they are asking ?

They can negotiate 2 deals one for 8 and another one for remaining 7 to be executed at a later date to sweeten both , remaining can be flown for 10 years and then used for spares unless paf thinks it's not worth while spending what asking price is

Anyway I am sure they know what they are doing because pa f has been going around everywhere but European f16s were original block 1, 5 and 10 and and the oldest build in early and mid 80s so ...[/QUOTE]
Why a SLEP can't be applied to all Jordanian airframes if remaining life is the issue? Is it not viable at this point?


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## Cool_Soldier

Apart from some cobras are too available.
May be some deal will done for copters too.


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## umair86pk

Does anyone have any clue how much hours the PAF F-16s have logged on their airfame.


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## khanasifm

Slep past 8000 hours would require kits / design docs from lm and their buy in and I think that is what being worked with Tai and lm

Paf and other iiird world af cannot afford throwing f16 after 8k life and will go for extension till 10-12k life so will see f16 till 2035-40 or so like mirages

http://www.aviationpros.com/press_release/12028741/worldwide-demand-for-f-16-mro-to-remain-strong

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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> True


should European countries have f-16 a/b in storage
why not buy aircraft directly from USA they have plenty in storage


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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> should European countries have f-16 a/b in storage
> why not buy aircraft directly from USA they have plenty in storage



2 reasons 
1. Poor relations at this time 
2. Paucity of Funds


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## HRK

umair86pk said:


> Why 8 when 15 are for sale





fatman17 said:


> 1. Jordan has raised the selling price.
> 2. Our own finances.





ali_raza said:


> they are taking advantage of the situation after fall of the f16 deal with america.
> all economics u know









i am not contradicting the reason stated by members above but just trying to highlight one more possible reason which in my opinion is the 'flying age' of of the offered fleet ... the average flying hours of this fleets is *5,624* hours & there are only *7 *F-16s which are having lower flying hours then this average flying hours accumulated at this fleet, in opinion those F-16s which are highlighted green are the possible F-16s PAF is looking for purchase; btw if I am not mistaken (plz correct me if I am wrong) officially the designed life of F-16 fuselage is 8,000 flying hours though it can stand upto 10,000 -12,000 flying hours

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

HRK said:


> View attachment 362166
> 
> 
> i am not contracting the reason stated by members stated above but just trying to highlight one more possible reason which in my opinion is the 'flying age' of of the offered fleet ... the average flying hours of this fleets is *5,624* hours & there are only *7 *F-16s which are having lower flying hours then this average flying hours accumulated at this fleet in opinion there the those which are highlighted green are the possible F-16 PAF is looking for purchase; btw if I am not mistaken (plz correct me if I am wrong) officially the designed life of fuselage is 8,000 flying hours though it can stand upto 10,000 -12,000 flying hours


If I may add one thing ... the author of the Diplomat piece (who mentioned that the PAF is looking to purchase eight F-16s from Jordan) might have made an error while writing his article. The link he inserted doesn't offer a number at all. Second, Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) told Defense News that the PAF was looking to buy 14 Jordanian F-16s, which it would then upgrade (along with 60 existing units) at TAI.

http://thediplomat.com/2016/12/confirmed-pakistan-air-force-now-operates-70-jf-17-fighter-jets/

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...4/tai-talks-upgrade-pakistani-f-16s/84854448/

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## MystryMan

fatman17 said:


> 2 reasons
> 1. Poor relations at this time
> 2. Paucity of Funds


We also have Non NATO Ally status so eligible for EDA route for surplus/stored USAF F-16. It would not require notification to Congress we only need presidential approval IIRC.


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## TOPGUN

MystryMan said:


> We also have Non NATO Ally status so eligible for EDA route for surplus/stored USAF F-16. It would not require notification to Congress we only need presidential approval IIRC.




Perhaps, good luck getting that it not going to happen !!


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## khanasifm

From oiganal report per Mr khattak

“The case for the purchase of F-16s from the US is closed, we are now going for a third party transfer of F-16s and have an offer from Jordan,” Khattak said on Monday. Jordan offered Pakistan 16 used F-16 Block-30 fighter aircraft, an older F-16 version than the variants originally offered by the United States

Yes the 8 number is pulled out of thin air or perhaps the number of new block 52 were 8 causing confusion but jordanain deal can be for all of them .

Remaining life current number of hours on the frame vs current max 8k, keep in mind total life of f7p and pg is 2400-2800 hours , f6 had 600x3 =1800 hours, mirage has 1800x2 or 3 = 3600 hours, jf has around 4k but may be extended later on

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## fatman17

MystryMan said:


> We also have Non NATO Ally status so eligible for EDA route for surplus/stored USAF F-16. It would not require notification to Congress we only need presidential approval IIRC.



Yes but the funds to upgrade are usually subsidised by FMS/FMF, very rarely we use our own funds.

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## Naif al Hilali

HRK said:


> btw if I am not mistaken (plz correct me if I am wrong) officially the designed life of F-16 fuselage is 8,000 flying hours though it can stand upto 10,000 -12,000 flying hours


Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

The original USAF requirement was 4,000 hours at a structural stress factor limit of 7.33g. General Dynamics showed that they could design for 6,000 hours at 9.0g limit while meeting all weight and performance goals.

The original A model was later found to not be able to actually meet this life-span even under normal peace-time operating conditions but subsequent models were easily re-designed to be able to reach the target.

Mid-Life-Updates applied to Block 15 and above models also go through Structural Life Enhancement Processes and have the fuselage strengthened and patches applied as can be seen below:






The resulting aircraft can be flown to 8,000 hours under normal conditions. Please note that total cycles (takeoff to landing) and the number of times the airframe is taken to its limits are also important and excessive cycles and g-limit excursions will shorten the time between overhauls and eventual achievable lifespan for an airframe. Hence, combat flown- (or air combat training dedicated-) aircraft wear out quicker.

The F-15E was more sturdily designed to be able to handle heavy loads of up to about 81,000 pounds takeoff weights and be able to deliver heavier warloads at all altitudes than the original F-15A/C and F-16 models. There is talk of having them realistically reach 16,000 or 18,000 hours eventual lifespans with SLEP-like programs. The F-15Cs that are in better condition are also being lined up to be rebuilt (new fuselage cells and wing-boxes) to F-15E standards and can be taken up to 24,000 hours eventual life-spans (including what they have spent with their original airframes).

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## MystryMan

TOPGUN said:


> Perhaps, good luck getting that it not going to happen !!


At least we can try and we may get them if we have effective lobbying and strong diplomacy.


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## TOPGUN

MystryMan said:


> At least we can try and we may get them if we have effective lobbying and strong diplomacy.



Trying is one thing which we can try , however its very unlikely I hate to say lets see what happens.


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## air marshal

https://www.facebook.com/SAirCollection/


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## Raider 21

Storm Force said:


> DID I READ THIS CORRECT
> 
> 14 Jordanian used F16 for $75 million in total,
> 
> That is ridiculous price of $5 million per plane.
> 
> either those planes are battered junk OR the Jordanians are losing the plot
> 
> The QATARIS want $35 million each for their used Mirage2000/9 when they finally receive their rafales.
> 
> A contemporary modern F16/52 brand new has a unit price of $70 million each
> 
> PAF are going to 15 for the same price ( yes I know they are nearly 25 years old)
> 
> STILL A BARGIN IMO
> 
> 
> 
> Current F16 of Jordan being eyed by Pakistan


Qatar operates Mirage 2000-5...UAE operates the Mirage 2000-9. Just to avoid any confusion sir.


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## aziqbal

Mirage 2000 varients are very costly to operate

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

fatman17 said:


> Yes but the funds to upgrade are usually subsidised by FMS/FMF, very rarely we use our own funds.


We did the MLU using a mix of FMF and sovereign funds.

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## Naif al Hilali

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem

From the article 'LEAN BUT MEAN' (text only, not images), a report on Royal Danish Air Force F-16s in the January 2017 issue of Combat Aircraft (answers some questions raised previously about PAF F-16s in this thread):

"...Since the first delivery in 1980, the RDAF’s F-16s have been through various update programs, bringing new features and capabilities to the fleet, as well as extending airframe service lives. 






The most significant of these F-16 upgrades is the well-documented mid-life update (MLU) program that the RDAF joined when the initial planning stages began in 1989. In total, the RDAF upgraded 48 single-seat F-16As and 13 two-seat F-16Bs. All were modified at the main F-16 depot at Aalborg air base in northern Jutland. Most RDAF F-16s remaining in service have been upgraded to the MLU 6.5 tape standard; the exceptions are the seven remaining Block 10 airframes, which have only been upgraded to MLU 4.3 tape. Since they are Block 10s, these aircraft lack the strengthened nosewheel construction and are unable to carry a targeting pod or fire the AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missile. They are only used for training and as quick reaction alert (QRA) aircraft but not for international missions.






In 1986, many other European users of the F-16 replaced the aircraft’s Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200 engine with the modernized F100-PW-220E version. However, the Danish government decided not to join this engine initiative. With the drawn-out process to select the F-16’s replacement, it soon became clear that the original units would not be able to see the jets through to their out-of-service date. As a result, in 2013 the RDAF purchased 50 used F100-PW-220E powerplants. These are being fitted to the RDAF F-16 fleet to keep the aircraft flying until their planned out-of-service date in 2024.

The commanding officer of 730 Fighter Squadron, call sign ‘STI’, said of the upgraded engines: ‘The main advantages of the new Dash 220E engines include more rapid thrust during take-off, which means the aircraft gets airborne quicker, leaving more runway in case of an emergency. The engine also performs better in the air, which improves its effectiveness during air-to-air combat.’

With the F-16’s replacement not expected to reach full operational capability (FOC) until 2027, the RDAF Fighting Falcons are undergoing a structural life enhancement program, which aims to keep them flying until at least 2024.

F-16 SQUADRONS
The RDAF now has two F-16 squadrons, 727 Fighter Squadron and 730 Fighter Squadron (offcially renamed as such from Eskadrille 727 and Eskadrille 730 in January 2005), both based at Fighter Wing Skrydstrup. No F-16s are assigned to either unit. All the aircraft are pooled together at the Aircraft Maintenance Squadron and jets are assigned to each fighter squadron on an ‘as needed’ basis.






The main day-to-day mission of the Danish F-16s is the 24-hour QRA maintained at Skrydstrup. Two F-16s are kept on constant QRA readiness, with two more providing immediate back-up. The four aircraft are kept in a specially constructed building close to the crew quarters. The jets are fully fuelled, checked out and can be airborne within minutes of the alarm sounding. They are armed with two AIM-9L Sidewinders and a full drum of 20mm ammunition for the gun, while a centerline fuel tank is carried. Two pilots and two ground crew are on 12.5-hour rotations in a building close to the QRA shelters. In addition to the two main and two back-up jets, two to three airframes are on stand-by, in case any of the four jets has a malfunction that cannot be ﬁxed. This is to avoid situations in which, for example, one of the four primary aircraft breaks down on a Friday afternoon, leaving one of the QRA jets without a spare airframe for the weekend. These stand-by jets are armed too, and can be ready for ﬂight at short notice.






Apart from maintaining the 24-hour QRA, the two F-16 squadrons have to keep pilots current and well-trained. On a normal day two missions are ﬂown, one in the morning and one in the afternoon, usually consisting of eight aircraft each. In times when aircraft are deployed
on international commitments, or on exercises, the number of airframes per sortie is reduced.

...ARCTIC FALCONS
For many years the RDAF has mounted patrols over Greenland using a combination of CL-604 Challengers and C-130J-30 Hercules from Eskadrille 721. In 2015 the decision was made to test the F-16 and its sensor suite over Greenland and to gain knowledge about operating ﬁghters over the Arctic. RDAF F-16s had previously made fuel stops at Greenland’s Kangerlussuaq (Sønder Strømfjord) while deploying to the United States, but this was the ﬁrst time missions would actually be ﬂown over the territory. 






On August 5, 2015 three F-16s left Skrydstrup bound for Kangerlussuaq. They were accompanied by a CL-604 and a C-130J-30 carrying spare parts and ground crews. To help deal with the long distances involved, the RDAF borrowed two sets of 600-gallon drop tanks from the Portuguese Air Force. The two primary jets used the 600-gallon tanks, while the third, a back-up aircraft, ﬂew to Greenland with the normal 370-gallon drop tanks. During their mission, the two primary jets touched down at Thule Air Base, the ﬁrst ever landing at this location by an F-16
coming almost 40 years after a single-seat ﬁghter had last landed at the base. Having successfully completed a number of sorties over large parts of Greenland, the three F-16s returned to Denmark on August 7, 2015.






...FUTURE FIGHTER
...The decision to purchase 27 F-35s was met with criticism and skepticism from some observers, both nationally and internationally. In its reasoning for replacing 44 F-16s with just 27 F-35s, the Danish government is, among other things, expecting each airframe to be
able to fly a minimum of 250 hours per year, compared with the 165 flight hours that the F-16s fly now. During years when the F-35s are deployed on international missions, the government anticipates being able to fly 290 hours per airframe. The 250 hours in a ‘normal’ year is in
stark contrast to the annual 167.7 flight hours that the Norwegian government is forecasting for each aircraft in its F-35 fleet. Indeed, no other F-35 user in the world predicts that its aircraft will be able to fly 250 hours a year.

...It is not only the high number of flying hours and comparatively low unit costs used in the selection process which have raised concerns. The Danish government has undertaken its calculations based on radical changes in pilot working conditions. These include increasing weekly working hours from 37 hours (the standard Danish working week) to 48 hours. This opens up the possibility of a two-to-one deployment versus home time, meaning that pilots can be deployed for twice as long as they get to stay home before being deployed again. Furthermore, the service time for pilots might be increased from 8.5 years to 17 years to cut down on the need to train new pilots. It remains to be seen how the pilots’ union will react if these changes are implemented.

...'VIPER' REPLACEMENT
...The F-16 fleet is to be phased out between 2020 and 2024. This is expected to leave a gap of two years, from 2022 to 2024, during which the RDAF will be unable to participate in international fighter operations prior to FOC for the F-35, which is expected in 2027. It remains to be seen if the planned schedule is achievable. In the meantime, it will be left to the F-16 to hold the line.

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## HRK

fatman17 said:


> Yes but the funds to upgrade are usually subsidised by FMS/FMF, very *rarely *we use our own funds.



*53%* ($ *477 *million) FMF, *47%* ($ *414* million) sovereign funds = total value of MLU program were *$ 891 million *(plz see the highlighted part in the attachment)
*




link: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-air-force-news-discussions.8600/page-134#post-7365336 *

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## fatman17

HRK said:


> *53%* ($ *477 *million) FMF, *47%* ($ *414* million) sovereign funds = total value of MLU program were *$ 891 million *(plz see the highlighted part in the attachment)
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> link: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan-air-force-news-discussions.8600/page-134#post-7365336 *



I said rarely and not never.

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## fatman17

Apparently India may have rejected US /LM offer of F16s

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## Cool_Soldier

Any idea about extra F!6 from Jordan is progressing?


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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Apparently India may have rejected US /LM offer of F16s


Pak should think about new talks with LM .


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## fatman17

mingle said:


> Pak should think about new talks with LM .



Probably after new US administration takes over but we have to buy with own funds, FMF is not possible.

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## mingle

fatman17 said:


> Probably after new US administration takes over but we have to buy with own funds, FMF is not possible.


Bottom line is we dont have money otherwise i dont see any political issue .I hope LM and PAF come up with some solution regarding finance .


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mingle said:


> Bottom line is we dont have money otherwise i dont see any political issue .I hope LM and PAF come up with some solution regarding finance .


We just signed a multi-billion dollar deal for Chinese submarines and a $600m deal with Ukraine for various armour programs. There is clearly some money, it's just that few are in the mood to spend those funds on American arms.

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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We just signed a multi-billion dollar deal for Chinese submarines and a $600m deal with Ukraine for various armour programs. There is clearly some money, it's just that few are in the mood to spend those funds on American arms.



That's well said. Even when you remove the chinese submarine deals (they could be financing the subs themselves or give loans which is most likely), Pakistan is still talking to Ukraine about multiple deals involving tanks, it is evaluating new wheeled SP Artillery, It is taking with the Czechs and Belgians about production of assault rifles, it is talking to Turkey about the frigates and FACs. There is clearly money available for 8 F-16s, but is it worth it for the the capability they add and the political risk they can represent.

On a side note that I think people may find interesting...and please forgive me because it took so long to get away from this heated topic previously, and I know when I post this it could start another flame war between some respected members, but for people who dont think we (the USA) have the ability to hack weapons we sell, just listen to this BBC piece regarding a confrontation between the Greek and Turkish navy. During the naval standoff in 1995, the US tried to broker peace, and two American ships who were acting as go-betweens for the Greeks and Turks, secretly, and successfully disabled the weapons systems of both navies (greek and turkish) as they were using American tech. Richard Holbrooke told the Greek FM (Theodoros Pangalos) that the US would not have allowed the two navies to fire on each other successfully and had disabled their weapons without them realizing it. All they would have done is kill a few fish.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04km4gd Listen to the whole thing as the encounter is both interesting and ridiculous, but the part of interest is from 7:25 - 8:30
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) ; @Bilal Khan 777 ; @Oscar; @MastanKhan

Again, sorry for bringing it up again, but I thought of our discussion while listening to this on the radio yesterday and it is relevant to Pakistan and its F-16s. The possibility of remotely disabling the system is there, but as I have said before, it would likely only be used to prevent Pakistan from attacking NATO or US. Not likely to be used to prevent Pakistan from defending against Indian aggression, though with Trump coming into power, no-one can be sure of anything.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> That's well said. Even when you remove the chinese submarine deals (they could be financing the subs themselves or give loans which is most likely), Pakistan is still talking to Ukraine about multiple deals involving tanks, it is evaluating new wheeled SP Artillery, It is taking with the Czechs and Belgians about production of assault rifles, it is talking to Turkey about the frigates and FACs. There is clearly money available for 8 F-16s, but is it worth it for the the capability they add and the political risk they can represent.
> 
> On a side note that I think people may find interesting...and please forgive me because it took so long to get away from this heated topic previously, and I know when I post this it could start another flame war between some respected members, but for people who dont think we (the USA) have the ability to hack weapons we sell, just listen to this BBC piece regarding a confrontation between the Greek and Turkish navy. During the naval standoff in 1995, the US tried to broker peace, and two American ships who were acting as go-betweens for the Greeks and Turks, secretly, and successfully disabled the weapons systems of both navies (greek and turkish) as they were using American tech. Richard Holbrooke told the Greek FM (Theodoros Pangalos) that the US would not have allowed the two navies to fire on each other successfully and had disabled their weapons without them realizing it. All they would have done is kill a few fish.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04km4gd Listen to the whole thing as the encounter is both interesting and ridiculous, but the part of interest is from 7:25 - 8:30
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) ; @Bilal Khan 777 ; @Oscar; @MastanKhan
> 
> Again, sorry for bringing it up again, but I thought of our discussion while listening to this on the radio yesterday and it is relevant to Pakistan and its F-16s. The possibility of remotely disabling the system is there, but as I have said before, it would likely only be used to prevent Pakistan from attacking NATO or US. Not likely to be used to prevent Pakistan from defending against Indian aggression, though with Trump coming into power, no-one can be sure of anything.


It's worth adding that when one sees the FC-31(v2), does that F-16 even look that appealing anymore? Some would much rather a pseudo-Raptor than a real Falcon... Just saying...

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## Tank131

It really has transformed into looking like a mini-F22 rather than the JSF it more closely resembled previously.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> It really has transformed into looking like a mini-F22 rather than the JSF it more closely resembled previously.


I think AVIC should really jab one at Lockheed Martin by naming the FC-31 "False Raptor" or 'Shadow.' Embrace the derision and use it artistically. At the very least, I wouldn't be surprised if NATO ends up referring to the FC-31 along those lines.

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## MastanKhan

Tank131 said:


> That's well said. Even when you remove the chinese submarine deals (they could be financing the subs themselves or give loans which is most likely), Pakistan is still talking to Ukraine about multiple deals involving tanks, it is evaluating new wheeled SP Artillery, It is taking with the Czechs and Belgians about production of assault rifles, it is talking to Turkey about the frigates and FACs. There is clearly money available for 8 F-16s, but is it worth it for the the capability they add and the political risk they can represent.
> 
> On a side note that I think people may find interesting...and please forgive me because it took so long to get away from this heated topic previously, and I know when I post this it could start another flame war between some respected members, but for people who dont think we (the USA) have the ability to hack weapons we sell, just listen to this BBC piece regarding a confrontation between the Greek and Turkish navy. During the naval standoff in 1995, the US tried to broker peace, and two American ships who were acting as go-betweens for the Greeks and Turks, secretly, and successfully disabled the weapons systems of both navies (greek and turkish) as they were using American tech. Richard Holbrooke told the Greek FM (Theodoros Pangalos) that the US would not have allowed the two navies to fire on each other successfully and had disabled their weapons without them realizing it. All they would have done is kill a few fish.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04km4gd Listen to the whole thing as the encounter is both interesting and ridiculous, but the part of interest is from 7:25 - 8:30
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) ; @Bilal Khan 777 ; @Oscar; @MastanKhan
> 
> Again, sorry for bringing it up again, but I thought of our discussion while listening to this on the radio yesterday and it is relevant to Pakistan and its F-16s. The possibility of remotely disabling the system is there, but as I have said before, it would likely only be used to prevent Pakistan from attacking NATO or US. Not likely to be used to prevent Pakistan from defending against Indian aggression, though with Trump coming into power, no-one can be sure of anything.




Hi,

Thank you for bringing that up---.

A pakistani would die and go to his grave proudly rather than admitting that there are " electronic kill switches " in ever american " smart weapon ".

Pakistani civilians think that those serving in the pak air force are privy to everything american---so sadly they are mistaken.

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## Jammer

Just wanted to change the subject from this ridiculous kill switch discussion, don't know if it has been posted before but here's a nice concise and informative article on the evolution of the F16 straight from the horse's mouth:
http://lockheedmartin.com/us/news/features/2015/C1HistoryF16.html

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## Naif al Hilali

Interesting Conversation going on at 

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=52581&sid=a708b7112ac792bbdf808a7cb21d416b

regarding F-16 weights, composites, and maneuverability.

or download the good parts from the pdf attachment


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## Naif al Hilali

Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem






USAF F-16 with AIM-120D, AIM-9X, eight Small-Diameter-Bombs [SDBs], AIM-120C (left to right). Anyone know of PAF plans to procure SDBs or their equivalents?





Looks like AIM120D, AIM-9X, four SDBs, 500 pounder Slick and JDAM (?), AIM-9 or Pod (?), AIM-120D (?)

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## razgriz19

mingle said:


> Pak should think about new talks with LM .



LM will sell F-16s if PAF can give them cash. The issue was never a diplomatic one, but it was lack of money.

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## nomi007

Naif al Hilali said:


> Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem
> 
> View attachment 363701
> 
> USAF F-16 with AIM-120D, AIM-9X, eight Small-Diameter-Bombs [SDBs], AIM-120C (left to right). Anyone know of PAF plans to procure SDBs or their equivalents?
> 
> View attachment 363700
> 
> Looks like AIM120D, AIM-9X, four SDBs, 500 pounder Slick and JDAM (?), AIM-9 or Pod (?), AIM-120D (?)


sorry not for pakistan

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## Naif al Hilali

Some videos pursuant to the F-16 Sparrow missile development program discussed earlier:

F-16 Radar Missile Development

F-16 Radar Missile Capability

F-16 Sparrow Missile

F-16 and the Sparrow Missile

Richard Adams Sparrow Clip


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

razgriz19 said:


> LM will sell F-16s if PAF can give them cash. The issue was never a diplomatic one, but it was lack of money.


I wonder ... if Pakistan did intend to pay in cash, and that fact was known to Congress, do you think they would've approved it? The F-16 sale and FMF were presented together, so there may have been an anticipation in Congress that without FMF, the F-16s would not go through. I think the debate in Congress over this issue was enough to dissuade the PAF from inking the contract. Doing so under such noise could've brought back memories of 1989 when Benazir Bhutto inked Peace Gate IV, just when noise about Pakistan's nuclear program began to surface.

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## fatman17

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I wonder ... if Pakistan did intend to pay in cash, and that fact was known to Congress, do you think they would've approved it? The F-16 sale and FMF were presented together, so there may have been an anticipation in Congress that without FMF, the F-16s would not go through. I think the debate in Congress over this issue was enough to dissuade the PAF from inking the contract. Doing so under such noise could've brought back memories of 1989 when Benazir Bhutto inked Peace Gate IV, just when noise about Pakistan's nuclear program began to surface.



No the Senator who blocked the deal was quoted as saying that please buy with your own funds and we won't object.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

fatman17 said:


> No the Senator who blocked the deal was quoted as saying that please buy with your own funds and we won't object.


That's after they approved it though, but everyone knew it was tied to FMF anyways. My point is that if FMF was not a factor, who is to say they wouldn't have interfered anyways?

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## fatman17

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That's after they approved it though, but everyone knew it was tied to FMF anyways. My point is that if FMF was not a factor, who is to say they wouldn't have interfered anyways?



FMF became a factor bcuz they felt that Pakistan was not doing enough v haqqani network and hence they withdrew the subsidy.

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## Basel

Pakistan is falling for F-16s bait, not again.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/820164269950070784


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## mingle

I hope Pak will get them again via trump Go LM Go Very likely this time


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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That's after they approved it though, but everyone knew it was tied to FMF anyways. My point is that if FMF was not a factor, who is to say they wouldn't have interfered anyways?



Hi,

They would have let the production begin and at the final phase just before delivery---put sanctions on delivery---.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

One day this thread will close as we would have moved on to new platform

We have moved on from F16 deals


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## untitled

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> One day this thread will close as we would have moved on to new platform
> 
> We have moved on from F16 deals


Thread closed yes. But moved on to new platform no. That credit will most likely go to the Pakistan F16 Discussions 3 thread

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

I think proper bargining chip would be reverse of Ban on Pakistani companies introduced by Obama


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> They would have let the production begin and at the final phase just before delivery---put sanctions on delivery---.


Basically. If they were willing to sell us F-16s, the PAF would have bought a lot of used F-16C/Ds by now. Even Poland is now looking at used and upgraded F-16s (to replace the MiG-29s and Su-22s), Clearly, even the used birds have value and the PAF is not averse to procuring used F-16s (e.g. from Jordan). There's clearly a quiet block in the U.S. on conventional arms for territorial defence. Otherwise, used F-16s, OHPs, Chinooks, etc, would have happened by now.

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## Raider 21



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## Windjammer

A PAF Block-52D over it's home base, Shahbaz.

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## JamD

Windjammer said:


> A PAF Block-52D over it's home base, Shahbaz.
> 
> View attachment 369164


That seems photoshopped windy. Look at the cockpit.

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## fatman17

Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s

Jan 17, 2017 00:57 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff

Latest update [?]

PAF F-16As

Modernization program finishes with TAI deliveries.

January 17/17: Pakistan is hoping that a Donald Trump presidency may restart a plan to procure F-16 jets through a foreign military financial aid scheme. US Congress downed the plan last year following concerns by some lawmakers over Islamabad’s allegiances in regards to counter-terrorism operations in the region. It was decided that if Pakistan wanted the F-16s, they would have to pay for them out of their own pocket.


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## Raider 21



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## razgriz19

fatman17 said:


> Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s
> 
> Jan 17, 2017 00:57 UTC by Defense Industry Daily staff
> 
> Latest update [?]
> 
> PAF F-16As
> 
> Modernization program finishes with TAI deliveries.
> 
> January 17/17: Pakistan is hoping that a Donald Trump presidency may restart a plan to procure F-16 jets through a foreign military financial aid scheme. US Congress downed the plan last year following concerns by some lawmakers over Islamabad’s allegiances in regards to counter-terrorism operations in the region. It was decided that if Pakistan wanted the F-16s, they would have to pay for them out of their own pocket.



Historically speaking, Republicans were fairly nice towards PAF. Reagan administration and then Bush administration, obviously both times they needed us. That is still valid today so I'm sure we will be seeing more F-16s. Especially if India selects Gripen for their light weight fighter.


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## khanasifm

700 million for 8 aircraft you can get app 21 ac full Sqn of JF blk 3 (30million a piece) for it

The diff is combat range of f16 vs JF , 13.5 ton class light combat JF vs 19/20 ton class f16


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## fatman17

First 6 F16s arrive in Pakistan


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## Sloth 22

razgriz19 said:


> Historically speaking, Republicans were fairly nice towards PAF. Reagan administration and then Bush administration, obviously both times they needed us. That is still valid today so I'm sure we will be seeing more F-16s. Especially if India selects Gripen for their light weight fighter.



India is paying 91 million USD for 1 Rafale Single Seater. 

For Gripen to qualify , it would need to offer its E/F capabilities at 45 million USD. 

While buying F16 would be geopolitical advantage , even if its not as cheap.F16 is the pre condition right now for many other deals relating to UAVs , EMALS and Helicopters.


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## ziaulislam

Sloth 22 said:


> India is paying 91 million USD for 1 Rafale Single Seater.
> 
> For Gripen to qualify , it would need to offer its E/F capabilities at 45 million USD.
> 
> While buying F16 would be geopolitical advantage , even if its not as cheap.F16 is the pre condition right now for many other deals relating to UAVs , EMALS and Helicopters.


i am surprised that you are paying just 3.6 billion for aircraft and 4 billion for training and weapons. 
i think this have to do with the offset clause

anyway i think its 91 million euro=98 million dollars
http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...-agreement-for-36-Rafales/article14995775.ece


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## Sloth 22

ziaulislam said:


> i am surprised that you are paying just 3.6 billion for aircraft and 4 billion for training and weapons.
> i think this have to do with the offset clause
> 
> anyway i think its 91 million euro=98 million dollars
> http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/India-France-ink-€7.87-billion-agreement-for-36-Rafales/article14995775.ece



Yes. A major part is about ~40 years of service contract to Dassault for 75%+ availability. 

Then there would be around 10-12 major TOT programs too involved. 

The contract also involves a JV between Indian and French companies for missiles. 

France will also provide 560+ km SCALP missile. 

And then the most important JV. Dassault - Relaince JV. It would be set up to initially manufacture a % of Rafale airframe Nd send it to France. But given the huge facility and investment its making , it points out to be the ground work of Rafale Assembly line.

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## fatman17

Just a nice picture

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## Raider 21

fatman17 said:


> Just a nice picture



Serial 726 shot down Serial 720 back in the late 80s....

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## Windjammer



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## HRK

Posting it just to refresh some old memories ....
=============================

October 4, 2005 (by MKopack) - Pakistan* will buy 77 F-16 jets from the U.S. which Washington will acquire from a third country, *after they are fitted with the state-of-the-art equipment, Islamabad's Ambassador to America Gen (retd) Jehangir Karamat said.






*While the supply itself will be made by the U.S., the F-16s will be acquired from a third country.* The upgrade and preparation of the equipment however, is to be carried out by Lockheed Martin. 

According to Islamabad, the American government has already approved the deal and will present it to the U.S. Congress in October and November.

Islamabad's Ambassador also said that besides approving the F-16 deal with Pakistan, the U.S. would provide it with 20 state-of-the-art Cobra helicopters.

Last year, the U.S. had initially proposed to sell 24 F-16s, each costing around $40 million.

According to Karamat, Pakistan will be given two F-16s by December followed by supply of 20 in 2006 and the rest 55 in 2007.

The PAF, which has about 30 F-16s acquired in the 1980s, is currently modernising its aged fleet by buying used French-made Mirages as well as jointly producing the F-7 Thunder with China. The PAF has also procured several Mirage fighters from Libya.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article1469.html

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## Windjammer

An F-16D Block 52+ from the Pakistan AF with call sign "Retro16" seen here on short finals to Morón Air Base.

During Red Flag 16-4, the PAF flew 57 air interdiction sorties in 12 days and refuelled 50 times for a total transfer of 110,900 pounds of jet fuel.

@Oscar @Knuckles @sidewinder @MastanKhan

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## The Eagle

Windjammer said:


> An F-16D Block 52+ from the Pakistan AF with call sign "Retro16" seen here on short finals to Morón Air Base.
> 
> During Red Flag 16-4, the PAF flew 57 air interdiction sorties in 12 days and refuelled 50 times for a total transfer of 110,900 pounds of jet fuel.
> 
> @Oscar @Knuckles @sidewinder @MastanKhan
> View attachment 374961



Those ACMIs would have been helpful for us as well to learn a lot, I hope.


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## Windjammer

The Eagle said:


> Those ACMIs would have been helpful for us as well to learn a lot, I hope.


Basically the PAF flew an average of five missions daily and we all know what interdiction mission involves.....the PAF's performance was acknowledged by both the US and Israeli commanders.

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## Thorough Pro

If anyone missed, "Six and a half hour flight"



Knuckles said:


>

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## WiderMan

F-16D Block 52+ recovers at nellis afb after a successful RF 16-4 sortie.

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## monitor

*




*
*The U.S. Air Force Could Still Be Flying F-16s in 2050*
*Vipers are set to get an overhaul, but will anyone want them?*
It’s a truism that planes — and almost anything else for that matter — eventually get old and worn out, their wings, fuselages and other parts weakening to the point of failure under the strain of day-to-day use. This is one of the Pentagon’s more compelling arguments for sticking with the troublesome F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

It’s equally true that brand new parts can give older aircraft a new lease on life. Just look at the B-52 bomber.

In December 2016, the U.S. Air Force announced it was looking for companies to overhaul hundreds of F-16 fighter jets. One half of the so-called “service life extension program” — aka SLEP — would be to find a firm to build the parts kits, while the other part of the plan would involve hiring contractors to actually install them on the Vipers.

The parts would give each jet nearly 6,000 more hours of flight time, according to draft descriptions of the project. If each plane flies approximately 300 hours every year, that’s another two decades of service for the Vipers.

This means the fighter jets could still be in combat ready in 2050 — but will anyone want them?





The idea of effectively rebuilding the Air Force’s F-16 fleet isn’t new. Of course, the service ultimately wants to replace the aircraft — along with F-15C fighter jets and A-10 ground attackers — completely with stealthy F-35s.





Above, at top and below — Air Force and Air National Guard F-16Cs. Air Force photos
But as of 2017, the Joint Strike Fighter program continues to be plagued by delays and complications. In the previous seven years, the project has had to contend with problems with the ejection seat, a number of possible fire hazards, the aircraft’s immensely complex computer brain, the radar and much more.

So, in the intervening years, Vipers have continued to fight over Afghanistan, Iraq and eventually Syria and fly routine patrols in Europe, Asia and North America. The strain of these operations hasn’t been kind to pilots or aircraft.

During the 2013 fiscal year, Air Force F-16s suffered seven class A accidents — incidents that cause at least $2 million in damage or get someone killed. This was the highest rate in six years.

Two pilots died. The service started seriously considering a SLEP.

Unfortunately, by the end of 2013, budget cuts had killed the plan, according to official reports. Instead, the Air Force spent the money on upgrades for its small fleet of F-22 stealth fighters.




Then in 2015, plane maker Lockheed finished up a two-year torture test to see what would break after a simulated _92 years_ of flying. This data no doubt went into the Air Force’s revived plans to overhaul its F-16s.

Based on the draft documents the service released in December 2016, the parts that need replacing include the wings, much of the aircraft’s exterior “skin,” the support beams for its two tail fins and various bulkheads. During 2016, Air Force evaluators reviewed and approved the kit’s components at Hill Air Force Base in Utah.

The service expects to buy 300 of the kits for single-seat F-16C models in active service, along with another 43 parts sets specifically for foreign allies’ two-seat F-16D trainers. If all goes according to plan, contractors will have installed the components on all of those aircraft between 2018 and 2026.

There isn’t an estimated final price tag for the project yet, but it would leave a significant number of planes still in need of refits. The Air Force has over 1,000 C and D versions in service.

In addition, whoever wins the contracts to build and fit the parts will be able to sell more of them through the Pentagon to American allies. Since the plane’s first flight in 1974, Lockheed has sold or licensed production of more than 4,500 F-16s of all types to more than two dozen countries.

The official logo for the Air Force’s F-16 Program Office proudly proclaims it the “Fighter of Choice.” Many of these foreign operators need to upgrade their aging aircraft — or buy something else.





However, despite the F-16’s popularity, the SLEP might not automatically have a future beyond the initial run of aircraft upgrades. While the plan _could_ keep the Air Force and its partners flying the jets for decades, it’s not clear whether that fits in with anyone’s long-term plans.

For the Air Force, the SLEP is only an interim solution until the F-35 is finally ready to go in sufficient numbers. The service is already working on plans for whatever comes after the Joint Strike Fighter.

“What we want to do is stay ahead of the developmental curve,” then Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Welsh said in June 2016. “We’re thinking about options 20 years down the road.”

While its clearly one option, it’s hard to imagine he was talking about a refurbished F-16.

For its part, Lockheed routinely warns that without additional sales of entirely new F-16s, it will have to shut down the production line. In 2010, the company went so far as to argue that if it couldn’t sell F-16s to Taiwan soon, it might be forced to offer F-35s to officials in Taipei in the future.

Washington ultimately approved a plan that let Lockheed upgrade the Taiwanese F-16s with new radars, electronic countermeasures gear and other systems. The finished aircraft, dubbed F-16V, were similar to new ones the company subsequently built for Iraq.

But in spite of these statements and sales, the company clearly wants to sell F-35s not F-16s. It has already lined up nearly a dozen customers for the advanced jets around the world.

This focus was clear in the sign-up sheets for an Air Force meeting about the SLEP, which the service posted online with the other contract documents. The lists had just one individual from Lockheed and four from competitor Boeing.

Boeing has a history of scooping up these deals. In 2007, the firm won the contract to rewing the Air Force’s A-10s. With the new span, those planes might be in service through 2040 — alongside the overhauled F-16s.

But regardless of who ultimately builds and installs the kits, the SLEP won’t include any new equipment that would help keep the Vipers competitive against other fighter jets. Depending on the customer, Lockheed could choose to offer F-16V-style upgrades _or_ just see if they can afford the F-35.

And if it moves ahead with plans for even more advanced versions of its F-15 Eagle and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Boeing wouldn’t necessarily have any incident to offer those modifications, either. If Washington doesn’t want to sell Joint Strike Fighters to a particular country, the company would likely push those new planes rather than upgraded Vipers. In 2016, Boeing made headlines with sales of F/A-18s to Kuwait and F-15s to Qatar.

In the end, while F-16s could be airworthy three decades from now, it remains to be seen if any of them will still be flying.


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## The Eagle

*The U.S. Air Force Could Still Be Flying F-16s in 2050*


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## khanasifm

1 F4 are still flying so Long way for F16s the best and most numerously produced fighter p
in the western world

2 SLEP will be available for international customers irrespective of USAF as there are thousands of aircraft with more than 26 international airforces and only few can afford F35

3 If true for For 1/3 or even half the price of new Ac one gets additional 6000 hours than its a good deal

4 Belgian af Capt. Is listed as part of industry day participant


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## fatman17

The F-16 is the most numerous post-Cold War jet fighter, with nearly 5,000 built or on order. There are 24 nations using the F-16, and 14 have ordered more, in addition to their initial order. During The Cold War, Russia built over 10,000 MiG-21s and the U.S over 5,000 F-4s, but since then warplane production has plummeted about 90 percent. Since the end of the Cold War, the F-16 has been popular enough to keep the production lines going, despite the fact that the F-35 is supposed to replace the F-16. But the F-35 price keeps going up (it is already north of $100 million per aircraft) and the F-16 continues to get the job done at half that price and using many of the same weapons (like AMRAAM) that the F-35 uses.

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## Windjammer

*Sargodha Ka Shaheen.*






__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=246115399169629

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## nomi007

Golden Canopy f-16 at parade day


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## WiderMan

Post landing picture of a No.11 Sqn F-16AM with air brakes deployed to reduce the air speed, during Exercise Anatolian Eagle 16-1.

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## Raider 21

WiderMan said:


> Post landing picture of a No.11 Sqn F-16AM with air brakes deployed to reduce the air speed, during Exercise Anatolian Eagle 16-1.
> View attachment 376580


728 is also seen here

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## WiderMan

Griffins on the prowl.

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## WiderMan



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## Stealth

WiderMan said:


> View attachment 377590



Pic from Anatolian Turkish Exercise


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## WiderMan

Stealth said:


> Pic from Anatolian Turkish Exercise



Yes, Anatolian Eagle 16-1


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## Windjammer



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## WiderMan



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## WiderMan

Ex.Rjaf ADF parked inside a HAS at Mushaf AB.

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## WiderMan

A No.5 sqn F-16D (delta) Block 52+ performs a flypast during 23rd march parade.

Photo by the talented Hamza Tariq, please give the due credits to the photographer while sharing.

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## Windjammer

With LTP visible and bomb racks empty, an F-16B returns after a mission.

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## Cool_Soldier

Looking beautiful giant.


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## WiderMan

No.19 Sqn's F-16ADF (Bravo model) prepares to land at it's home-base after a sunset sortie.

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## khanasifm

No 19 sqn re called sherdils but their official sqn sign is not lion , not sure why the new insignia but again same can be true for no 2 insignia on new JFs


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## Windjammer



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## ali_raza

i cant understand why on earth did paf reduced f16 order.they were certainly out of world maybe


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## Imran Khan

ali_raza said:


> i cant understand why on earth did paf reduced f16 order.they were certainly out of world maybe


f-16 is not last fighter on earth and they know it



ali_raza said:


> i cant understand why on earth did paf reduced f16 order.they were certainly out of world maybe


f-16 is not last fighter on earth and they know it

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## ali_raza

Imran Khan said:


> f-16 is not last fighter on earth and they know it
> 
> 
> f-16 is not last fighter on earth and they know it


bhai had we stick to the plan we would be far better positioned


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## Hawkeye71

F-16 is a good fighter. But i wish to see thunder to catter our needs


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## Windjammer

No 19 Squadron visiting Masroor possibly for ISAC.

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## razgriz19

Windjammer said:


> No 19 Squadron visiting Masroor possibly for ISAC.
> 
> View attachment 380088


They have finally painted them in PAF colours!


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## truthseeker2010

WiderMan said:


> View attachment 379477
> No.19 Sqn's F-16ADF (Bravo model) prepares to land at it's home-base after a sunset sortie.



left wing tip is empty...... so a2a training........


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## WiderMan

truthseeker2010 said:


> left wing tip is empty...... so a2a training........



during normal ops, vipers are only armed with one AAM.



Windjammer said:


> No 19 Squadron visiting Masroor possibly for ISAC.
> 
> View attachment 380088



a question is killing me, i know this is probably a foolish one but when are these vipers going to get MLUed?


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## truthseeker2010

WiderMan said:


> a question is killing me, i know this is probably a foolish one but when are these vipers going to get MLUed?


 
IMO they wont, but if it is than it would be to customize it for ground ops as well bcoz of coin ops demand


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## WiderMan

truthseeker2010 said:


> IMO they wont, but if it is than it would be to customize it for ground ops as well bcoz of coin ops demand



They should, sherdils is mainly an AD sqn so they need JHMCS' along with AMRAAMs.


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## ali_raza

why not we ordered some amraam D


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## ziaulislam

ali_raza said:


> why not we ordered some amraam D


they have barely entered USA airforce and have yet to be exported

though we need aim 9x

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## ali_raza

ziaulislam said:


> they have barely entered USA airforce and have yet to be exported
> 
> though we need aim 9x


or atleast c7


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## fatman17

ali_raza said:


> or atleast c7



we have 500 rounds of AIM-120C5 which can be upgraded to C7 if we want to.

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## Basel

fatman17 said:


> we have 500 rounds of AIM-120C5 which can be upgraded to C7 if we want to.



What C-7 adds over C-5??


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## SQ8

Basel said:


> What C-7 adds over C-5??


http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-120.html

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## fatman17

Basel said:


> What C-7 adds over C-5??



I'm not an expert but C7 has a improved motor.

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## Windjammer

*A perfect Box formation.*

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## Incog_nito

I think now no more F-16s coming to Pakistan?


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## khanasifm

Jordanian f16 sale update ???


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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> *A perfect Box formation.*
> 
> View attachment 381406



the lower left one is not in line



Basel said:


> What C-7 adds over C-5??





fatman17 said:


> I'm not an expert but C7 has a improved motor.



new guidance system and greater range as well

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## Windjammer

khanasifm said:


> Jordanian f16 sale update ???


Due to the new government in Capitol Hill, all such matters are frozen, give it time.



truthseeker2010 said:


> the lower left one is not in line


That's due to the camera angle.


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## Windjammer

*I Sail above the Typhoons.*

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## Hawkeye71

Windjammer said:


> *I Sail above the Typhoons.*
> 
> View attachment 382582


Lovely click


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## Windjammer

@Stealth

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## Thorough Pro

Any HQ/HD pics of new thunders with IFR



Windjammer said:


> View attachment 382763
> 
> 
> View attachment 382764
> 
> 
> @Stealth


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## ExclusiveAadil

Pakistan Zindabad


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## air marshal

Rising Falcon 
https://www.facebook.com/SAirCollection

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## fatman17

Quote of the Day

If I were in an F-16, I'd be home by now.

-- Bumper sticker

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## fatman17



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## denel

no news on jordanian f-16s?


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## Rocky rock

denel said:


> no news on jordanian f-16s?



*It's Pakistan bro. you'll hear astonishing news here everyday.  

Which has nothing to do with reality. 

Because what we goona induct you'll never know until it becomes reality. *

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## MastanKhan

I do not know if this video is posted here

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## nomi007



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## WiderMan

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 384421



Polish F-16CJ, un-cropped picture: http://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/859081/4070-poland-air-force-lockheed-martin-f-16c-jastrzb/


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## WiderMan

Some screengrabs from PAF's new video.

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## MastanKhan

Very interesting video.

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## Raider 21

A PAF pilot from No.9 squadron poses with his aircraft after flying in the March 23rd flypast back in the early 1990s.

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## WiderMan

Members of the RSLF Special Force during Pakistan Day Parade.


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## Raider 21

Some old pics I found in an album. A No.14 Squadron F-16 taking off for Kamra after staying the night at Sargodha. Pilot : Shahid Sikandar, Photographer : Imran Amin.

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## Cool_Soldier

It looks Block A and B Tigers


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## Raider 21

The old link is gone but here is a video of a flypast rehearsal when the Shaheens were operating the F-16A/Bs at Kamra.

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## fatman17

Lockheed Martin has announced that it is to switch the production line of the F-16 Fighting Falcon fighters from Forth Worth, Texas, to their facility in Greenville, South Carolina. The switch will take place in September following the delivery of the last F-16 being built for Iraq, after which the Forth Worth operation will focus on the company’s F-35 production effort. Of the 4,500 F-16s sold to customers since 1976, about 3,600 have been built in Forth Worth.

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## khanasifm

No 5 and 11 Sqn now part of 39 Wing and No 19 and 9 part of 38th  and looks like PAF still pursuing additional F16 (per chief) which are the cheapest option due to infrastructure , training, and maintenance setup in country


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## WiderMan



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## khanasifm

The 15 Jordanian mlu can add an additional sqn replace one of the pg sqn


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> The 15 Jordanian mlu can add an additional sqn replace one of the pg sqn


Which 15?


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## Khafee

fatman17 said:


> Which 15?


I think he is referring to the new one, whose approval has been pending in dhobighat, I mean washington for a few months.

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## fatman17

Khafee said:


> I think he is referring to the new one, whose approval has been pending in dhobighat, I mean washington for a few months.


Not happening mates in the foreseeable future.

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## karakoram



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## karakoram



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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> Not happening mates in the foreseeable future.


If PAF cant squeeze used or EDA f-16s that will actually bring jobs to USA and help their agenda in pak-afgh with no expanse to their tax payers than this is* failed diplomacy*

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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> If PAF cant squeeze used or EDA f-16s that will actually being jobs to USA and help their agenda in pak-afgh with no expanse to their tax payers than this is* failed diplomacy*


So far you are right.

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## nomi007



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## Raider 21



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## TOPGUN

Knuckles said:


> View attachment 388543



Outstanding picture bro thanks so much for sharing

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## syed_yusuf

Knuckles said:


> View attachment 388543


how old is this picture is


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## Raider 21

syed_yusuf said:


> how old is this picture is


2010


----------



## syed_yusuf

Knuckles said:


> 2010


not an MLUed example


----------



## WiderMan

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 388430



AIM-9X on a Polish viper.


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## Danishwer

When I am searching for ebooks I found something exciting.

F16 Block 50/52+ Manual:

Just Google it " f16 CD manual"
"Sr71 manual"
I'm not giving links, as it may be unlawful to post direct link here as per PDF policy?


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## Readerdefence

WiderMan said:


> AIM-9X on a Polish viper.


What kind of aircraft doesn't look like f16 ?


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## fatman17

Today in F-16 history

10 Apr 1992 
First Pakistani aircraft: F-16A (#90-943) and F-16B (#90-948) arrive at AMARC under designations AAFG0001 & AAFG0002. They are the first of 28 Peace Gate III & IV aircraft to be embargoed.

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## Readerdefence

Kitten said:


> It's an F-16. You can see the Polish Air Force markings underwing, and Poland operates SU-22, MiG-29 and F-16 as its strike/fighter aircraft currently. Two of the three aren't outfitted with AIM-9 leaving the F-16 as the sole option. The downward canted tail also helps ID the type as the SU-22 and MiG-29 don't have this tail configuration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can see AIM-9X in this photo on the F-16. You'll also notice Polish F-16s feature a bulge just before the AIM-9X pylon, which is visible in the AIM-9X photo posted by nomi007, a feature which appeared on later model F-16s which Poland operates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The picture shows a Polish F-16 at Lechfeld Air Base, Germany.


Thx for your detailed information 
Can you give some information about mig29 are these up to the latest Russian level?


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## CriticalThought

WiderMan said:


> AIM-9X on a Polish viper.



AIM-9X? I thought the US didn't allow us to integrate HOBS on F-16? Or are we using this without integration with HMD/S


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## CriticalThought

Kitten said:


> on a POLISH VIPER!!! Poland, not Pakistan. You can clearly see the Polish Air Force markings in that picture.



Apologies, I mistook his response as being directed to post by Knuckles. I stand corrected. @Windjammer


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## khanasifm

Like 
*Lockheed says it can double F-16's service life, but will have to compete for opportunity*

http://www.defensenews.com/articles...life-but-will-have-to-compete-for-opportunity


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## fatman17

The USAF’s F-16 fighting fleet is to receive service life extension work from Lockheed Martin. The decision boosts the service life for the jets from 8,000 Equivalent Flight Hours to 12,000 with the service looking to continue operating the jets through to 2048. As many as 300 F-16C/D Block 40-52 aircraft will be affected by the work, and will also benefit foreign military customers. It’s intended that the aircraft will supplement US and allied forces while they recapitalize with new F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

They only pretend to not being able to service it so Military would buy new planes , new models

Technically they could have even used the F14 till now with new avionics and packages

All about commerce here .... that is why folks stop servicing units when they want Governments to buy new items


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## razgriz19

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> They only pretend to not being able to service it so Military would buy new planes , new models
> 
> Technically they could have even used the F14 till now with new avionics and packages
> 
> All about commerce here .... that is why folks stop servicing units when they want Governments to buy new items


Try bending a paper clip multiple times and see what happens.
Those things can only last so long, you can replace parts and avionics but you can't change the structure much without costing fortune. Wing spars have a design life and so does all the other load bearing structures. They can only do it for so long. You can always add new reinforcements, but that's adding to weight and cost, not to mention the long downtime.

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## Sine Nomine

Image Courtesy@Hydaspes' Lightbox

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## Imran Khan

قناص said:


> View attachment 392326
> 
> Image Courtesy@Hydaspes' Lightbox


look like taken by a chopper ? but looks nice


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## Sine Nomine

Imran Khan said:


> look like taken by a chopper ? but looks nice


Yes sir taken by a chooper.


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## Windjammer

Imran Khan said:


> look like taken by a chopper ? but looks nice





قناص said:


> Yes sir taken by a chooper.


This is the aircraft in which the PAF Airchief flew in on Pakistan Day Parade.
After the flypast, the aircraft landed at Nur Khan Base, where it's being recovered by the ground crew.

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## Imran Khan

Windjammer said:


> This is the aircraft in which the PAF Airchief flew in on Pakistan Day Parade.
> After the flypast, the aircraft landed at Nur Khan Base, where it's being recovered by the ground crew.


why they land it in nur khan because air chief have to go parade ground after landing ?


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## Windjammer

Imran Khan said:


> why they land it in nur khan because air chief have to go parade ground after landing ?



Yes because he has to join other VIPs to witness the parade and Nur Khan is the nearest base to the parade ground.

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## Basel

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/856193984745672704

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## Raider 21

Basel said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/856193984745672704


Amazing at how they ended up at Arizona.

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## Raider 21



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## umair86pk

Priceless find


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## Readerdefence

Knuckles said:


>


Still not much difference with the current cinematography by PTV

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## chaklala2

wow - ACM Jamal was very very low...you don't see the CAS flying this low nowadays...the Mirage and A5 formation was a complete disaster. If I am not mistaken but I think this the flypast where one mirage crashed prior to entry of the race course ground due to bird hit and the pilot died...that what probably explains the chaos of the formation


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## Arsalan

Arshad Ahmed said:


> wow - ACM Jamal was very very low...you don't see the CAS flying this low nowadays...the Mirage and A5 formation was a complete disaster. If I am not mistaken but I think this the flypast where one mirage crashed prior to entry of the race course ground due to bird hit and the pilot died...that what probably explains the chaos of the formation


Yes you are right.
Pilot Mohammad Saeed Iqbal lost his life in that sad incident.


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## Raider 21

Arshad Ahmed said:


> wow - ACM Jamal was very very low...you don't see the CAS flying this low nowadays...the Mirage and A5 formation was a complete disaster. If I am not mistaken but I think this the flypast where one mirage crashed prior to entry of the race course ground due to bird hit and the pilot died...that what probably explains the chaos of the formation


Cause was trim failure in the flight controls. Pilot ejected but chute didn't deploy. Formation went normally as planned. Nobody heard anything on the radio until they were done with the flypast (my dad flew left wing in the lead formation with the F-16s).

ACM Jamal flew in an F-16B with Wing Commander Amjad Javed in the backseat as a safety pilot. After they landed at Chaklala, Amjad Javed then took off and flew the F-16A solo demo.


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## chaklala2

Knuckles said:


> Cause was trim failure in the flight controls. Pilot ejected but chute didn't deploy. Formation went normally as planned. Nobody heard anything on the radio until they were done with the flypast (my dad flew left wing in the lead formation with the F-16s).
> 
> ACM Jamal flew in an F-16B with Wing Commander Amjad Javed in the backseat as a safety pilot. After they landed at Chaklala, Amjad Javed then took off and flew the F-16A solo demo.


Beg to differ...ACM Jamal always flew solo and infact me made a point of that in all his fly pasts.. it was Shamim that flew dual and then I think most ACMs flew solo until Kaleem Saadat I think. Also secondly, I don't think the flypast went normally...just watch the A5 formation...I have never seen it in such a chaos ever before



Arshad Ahmed said:


> Beg to differ...ACM Jamal always flew solo and infact me made a point of that. it was Shamim that flew dual. I don't think the flypast went normally...just watch the A5 formation...I have never seen it in such a chaos ever before


The F-16 flown by Amjad Javed vs ACM Jamal were two different F-16s which was always the case in all March 23 flypasts. Note the white smoke trailer containers on wingtips in Amjad's F-16 and no center line fuel tank. Jamal's F-16 had a center line fuel tank and no smoke trail containers. I lived in Chaklala so Jamal's F-16 (and this is true for all ACMs) landed in Chaklala but another F-16 for the aerobatics flew directly from Sargodha (in this case flown by Amjad Javed) and landed back in Sargodha...trust me I know this as I lived there and my dad worked directly with Jamal. Jamal always practiced a few sorties prior to the show


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## Raider 21

Arshad Ahmed said:


> Beg to differ...ACM Jamal always flew solo and infact me made a point of that. it was Shamim that flew dual. I don't think the flypast went normally...just watch the A5 formation...I have never seen it in such a chaos ever before
> 
> 
> The F-16 flown by Amjad Javed vs ACM Jamal were two different F-16s which was always the case. Note the white smoke trailers in Amjad's F-16 and no center line fuel tank. Jamal's F-16 had a center line fuel tank. I lived in Chaklala so Jamal's F-16 (and this is true for all ACMs) landed in Chaklala but another F-16 for the aerobatics flew directly from Sargodha (in this case flown by Amjad Javed). I know this because I lived in CHaklala and used to watch ACM's F-16 land but the other F-16 flew directly from Sargodha and landed there...so two different F-16s


It was a No.14 squadron jet flown in a few days before to Chaklala for the solo demo(serial 726). ACM Jamal flew in the 2 seater with Amjad Javed in the back before he took off again and flew in the solo jet.


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## chaklala2

Knuckles said:


> It was a No.14 squadron jet flown in a few days before to Chaklala for the solo demo(serial 726). ACM Jamal flew in the 2 seater with Amjad Javed in the back before he took off again and flew in the solo jet.


All I know is that up until 1986 Jamal few solo so not sure why he would fly dual with GIBS in 1987...does not sound right...



Arshad Ahmed said:


> All I know is that up until 1986 Jamal few solo so not sure why he would fly dual with GIBS in 1987...does not sound right...


Also I can tell you for sure, the F-16 for the aerobatics (flown by Amjad in this case) was always flown from Sargodha and landed in Sargodha as I lived right next to the runway in Chaklala and could see what is coming in an out of the airport. The ACM's F-16 started in Sargodha in the morning and landed in Chaklala which I could always see landing. I have been closely monitoring this until 1986 but then I left for Karachi...so not sure why in 1987 things would change..so I would beg to differ from your opinion on this. Also, Jamal would always fly solo and unclear why he would fly dual since he was an expert F-16 flier (one of the first Pakistanis who few the F-16 along with MM Alam)


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## Raider 21

Arshad Ahmed said:


> All I know is that up until 1986 Jamal few solo so not sure why he would fly dual with GIBS in 1987...does not sound right...
> 
> 
> Also I can tell you for sure, the F-16 for the aerobatics (flown by Amjad in this case) was always flown from Sargodha and landed in Sargodha as I lived right next to the runway in Chaklala and could see what is coming in an out of the airport. The ACM's F-16 started in Sargodha in the morning and landed in Chaklala which I could always see landing. I have been closely monitoring this until 1986 but then I left for Karachi...so not sure why in 1987 things would change..so I would beg to differ from your opinion on this. Also, Jamal would always fly solo and unclear why he would fly dual since he was an expert F-16 flier (one of the first Pakistanis who few the F-16 along with MM Alam)


ACM Jamal that year could have not been current to fly solo in the F-16. And my dad ferried the F-16 "726" over to Chaklala a few days before the March 23rd parade. Amjad Javed flew the solo display (and unfortunately lost his wings a few months later in a friendly fire incident). Also most of the information I know are either from my father AND the *No.14 Squadron history book* by A/C Khaleel Ahmed.


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## Raider 21

Person narrating in this video was an F-16 pilot who once locked onto an IAF MiG-25 when it crossed the border back in the early 1990s.

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## Windjammer

Arshad Ahmed said:


> wow - ACM Jamal was very very low...you don't see the CAS flying this low nowadays...the Mirage and A5 formation was a complete disaster. If I am not mistaken but I think this the flypast where one mirage crashed prior to entry of the race course ground due to bird hit and the pilot died...that what probably explains the chaos of the formation


There's no chaos, it's just the camera angle and purpose to cover a wide area.
Anyways, unknown to many the Mirage crash was inadvertently captured by the camera while covering the flypast in the form of plume of black smoke rising in the back ground.

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## chaklala2

Windjammer said:


> There's no chaos, it's just the camera angle and purpose to cover a wide area.
> Anyways, unknown to many the Mirage crash was inadvertently captured by the camera while covering the flypast in the form of plume of black smoke rising in the back ground.
> 
> View attachment 393851


Did you see the A-5 formation? it was a complete disaster camera angle or not and now it make sense why that happened..not sure how you can defend it. Please watch the video again. Nice catch on the video..sad to see the smoke plume. WEre there any civilians killed? I imagine this was right over westridge which is a heavily populated military neighborhood


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## nomi007

Windjammer said:


> There's no chaos, it's just the camera angle and purpose to cover a wide area.
> Anyways, unknown to many the Mirage crash was inadvertently captured by the camera while covering the flypast in the form of plume of black smoke rising in the back ground.
> 
> View attachment 393851


share video link


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## khanasifm

No news so far on Jordanian F16s but usa generals visiting again and defense budget got 17 plus Pentagon funds to help partners ?? Plus Saudi may chip in as rs now leading coalition


Assuming 15x average 20 mil for total of ...


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## HRK

khanasifm said:


> Assuming 15x average 20 mil for total of ...



$ 20 million is quite high for this batch of Jordanian F-16, if we take previous purchase as standard than *ideally* this purchase should cost less then the previous batch as the average flying hour left for these jets are less then the previous batch of 13 F-16 we bought, but our previous purchase was around $ +5.7 million for singe F-16 ADF version so its hard to expect an F-16 less then this amount .... ONLY IF we can manage to gain the approval form US for transfer of these F-16 from Jordan to Pakistan than the expected price should be $ <8 million

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## khanasifm

These are already muled and claimed to be block 30 equivalent


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## khanasifm

Mlued


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## MastanKhan

A departure from controlled flight---

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> A departure from controlled flight---


The pilot explaining in the video was my professor's colleague. Great description of departure from controlled flight.

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## khanasifm

Knuckles said:


> The pilot explaining in the video was my professor's colleague. Great description of departure from controlled flight.



He is actually a Canadian f18 pilot on exchange program to usaf 

So bottom line 30 year old plane still being modernised to make it safer


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## Raider 21

khanasifm said:


> He is actually a Canadian f18 pilot on exchange program to usaf
> 
> So bottom line 30 year old plane still being modernised to make it safer


Was an exchange pilot program to USAF from the Canadian Forces. He's back at Canada these days.


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## Sine Nomine

*By:




By idcostaMay. 10, 9:55 AM
Here's how the F-16 Falcon could replace the F-15 Eagle*
The F-15 Eagle, arguably the most successful fighter jet of the modern age, could be in for an early retirement with the US Air Force thanks to skyrocketing upgrade and refurbishment costs.

In a hearing before the House Armed Services Committee, Air Force and Air National Guard brass informed the panel that a plan was recently formed to retire and replace the F-15C/D variant of the Eagle far ahead of schedule by a matter of decades, though no decision had been made on that plan. While the Air Force did plan to keep the Eagle flying till 2040 through a $4 billion upgrade, it was recently determined that a further $8 billion would need to be invested in refurbishing the fuselages of these Eagles, driving up the costs of retaining the F-15C/D even higher than originally expected — presenting what seems to be the final nail the Eagle’s eventual coffin.





A U.S. Air Force F-15 Eagle from the 67th Fighter Squadron takes off March 16, 2017, at Kadena Air Base, Japan. The F-15’s superior maneuverability and acceleration are achieved through high engine thrust-to-weight ratio and low wing loading. (U.S. Air Force photo by Airman 1st Class Corey Pettis/Released)

So, what will the Air Force likely do to replace this 40-year-old wonder jet?

The Air Force had at first planned to replace the F-15 with the F-22 Raptor stealth fighter, but successive cuts to the Raptor program left the branch with only 187 fighters, a substantially lower quantity than the planned buy of around 700. This forced the decision to keep the Eagles in service longer, and thus, the aforementioned investment of over $4 billion was made towards upgrading all combat coded F-15C/Ds with new radars, networking systems, and avionics to keep these fighters in service up till around 2040, when it would be replaced with a newer sixth-generation fighter, also superseding the fifth-generation F-22 Raptor.

Once the F-15 gets pulled by the mid-2020s, the Air Force claims it already has a solution to replace what was once a bastion of American air power.





A U.S. Air Force F-16 Fighting Falcon flies over Iraq in support of Operation Inherent Resolve April 5, 2016. The President has authorized U.S. Central Command to work with partner nations to conduct targeted airstrikes of Iraq and Syria as part of the comprehensive strategy to degrade and defeat the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, or ISIL. (U.S. Air Force photo by Staff Sgt. Corey Hook/Released)

This solution comes in the form of enhancing F-16 Fighting Falcons with new radars from Northrop Grumman, and networking systems to take over the Eagle’s role in North American air defense, at least in the interim until the Air Force begins and completes its sixth-generation fighter project, which will bring about an even more capable air superiority fighter replacement for both the F-22 and the F-15.

The Air Force has already begun extending the lives of its F-16s till 2048, through a fleet-wide Service Life Extension Program that will add an extra 4,000 flight hours to its Fighting Falcons. Air Force leadership has also advocated buying more fighters, namely the F-35A Lightning II, faster, so that when the hammer does eventually drop on the Eagle, the branch’s fighter fleet won’t be left undersized and vulnerable.

Even with upgrades, however, the F-16 still has some very big boots to fill.

The F-15 was designed primarily as an air superiority fighter, meaning it was built to excel at shooting other aircraft down; all other mission types, like performing air-to-ground strikes, were secondary to its main tasking. To perform in this role, the Eagle was given stellar range, sizable weapons carriage, fantastic speed (over two and a half times the speed of sound), and a high operational ceiling. Conversely, the F-16 was designed as a low-cost alternative to the F-15, able to operate in a variety of roles, though decidedly not as well as the F-15 could with the air-to-air mission. Its combat range, weapons load and speed fall short of the standard set by the Eagle. Regardless, the Air Force still believes that the F-16 will be the best interim solution until the 6th generation fighter is fielded.





U.S. Air Force photo by Staff Sgt. Shawn Nickel

The USAF’s most decorated F-16 pilot, Dan Hampton, doesn’t disagree with these plans. In an interview with The War Zone, Hampton argues that though the F-16 lacks the weapons payload that the F-15 possesses, advances in missile guidance and homing make carrying more air-to-air weaponry a moot point, as pilots would likely hit their mark with the first or second shot, instead of having to fire off a salvo of missiles. Hampton adds that the F-16’s versatility in being able to perform a diverse array of missions makes it more suitable for long-term upgrades to retain it over the Eagle. Whether or not this will actually work out the way the Air Force hopes it will is anybody’s guess.
_*Source:http://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/heres-how-the-f-16-falcon-could-replace-the-f-15-eagle*_


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## Windjammer

The former Jordanian aircraft now in PAF service, also seems to support a ''Bird cutter'' type antennas under the intake....this particular aircraft seems to have left side ventral fin missing.


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## Taygibay

Windjammer said:


> this particular aircraft seems to have left side ventral fin missing.



It's there, mate! It just happens to be facing almost
perfectly perpendicular to the lens, a tiny bit upward.

It does show its _finesse_ though, the area to thickness ratio.
Think of photographing a sheet of paper with its edge facing
you and this is the same thing in proportions : the flat area of
the fin is bigger but the aim is to make that as thin as possible.

It obviously works as it fooled you! 

Have a great Friday, Tay.

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## khanasifm

It would be nice if remaining 15/16 Jordanian f16s replace one more mirage/f7 sqn and bring f16s to total 5 sqn, 250 JF with approx 20 in each sqn will make 12.5 sqn with .5 being Ccs

Keep in mind 2 f16 sqn are over strength with 45 f16s between 11 and 9 and 19 has fewer than normal i.e. 13

Counting each csc sqn as separate sqn paf is 20 fighter sqn airforce but in reality it's 19 (2x ccs sqn eq 1 regular sqn )

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## Thorough Pro

how is that even possible? it's invisible due to dark shadow but it is very much there



Windjammer said:


> The former Jordanian aircraft now in PAF service, also seems to support a ''Bird cutter'' type antennas under the intake....this particular aircraft seems to have left side ventral fin missing.
> 
> View attachment 396327


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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> The former Jordanian aircraft now in PAF service, also seems to support a ''Bird cutter'' type antennas under the intake....this particular aircraft seems to have left side ventral fin missing.
> 
> View attachment 396327



Part of OCU or upgrade from standard A/B model to air defence variant


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## Raider 21

No.14 squadron F-16s heading out for a flypast rehearsal. 1991 March 23rd flypast was led by Air Commodore Abbas "Mickey" Mirza as OC Flying No.33 Tactical Wing.

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## khanasifm

??? No update but paf chief interview still engaged on f16 so good possibility plus jaf has taken them off their site so not longer available https://www.dawn.com/news/1264685


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## Windjammer

khanasifm said:


> ??? No update but paf chief interview still engaged on f16 so good possibility plus jaf has taken them off their site so not longer available https://www.dawn.com/news/1264685



According to the Jordanians, the ball is in Pakistan's court.
Realistically the process is going through the bureaucratic blender on the Capitol Hill.

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## Rocky rock

*F-16 Block 50/52 airframe during durability test.*
*



*


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## khanasifm

State department overseas counterinsurgency operations funds for Pak 2018 has max 100 mil cap compared to last year but oco account for state department and DoD has no cap and be adjusted as deemed nessassary

Further I think the tab may be picked up by Saudis, guessing here


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## denel

Windjammer said:


> According to the Jordanians, the ball is in Pakistan's court.
> Realistically the process is going through the bureaucratic blender on the Capitol Hill.
> 
> View attachment 399757


how was it possible last time they got it fairly quickly. this time around it is taking much longer.


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## khanasifm

Last time around it was not announced and negotiation and clearance went ahead of announcement


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## ziaulislam

khanasifm said:


> State department overseas counterinsurgency operations funds for Pak 2018 has max 100 mil cap compared to last year but oco account for state department and DoD has no cap and be adjusted as deemed nessassary
> 
> Further I think the tab may be picked up by Saudis, guessing here


Unlikely. we are in iran group supporting assad and yemen insurgents politically


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## ziaulislam

We should ask iran for favors


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## khanasifm

Go ahead ask I am no body I cannot ask sh^&


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## Windjammer

Armed with LGBs and targeting pod, a No 9 Squadron Viper heads out spoil the day for some terrorists.

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## Clairvoyant

No offense bro but the plane is only carrying Mk.82 bombs

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## Windjammer



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## Raider 21

*April 8th, 1988, Squadron Leader Athar Bokhari*








Almost 16 months elapsed beofre the next ‘kill’ was achieved near Miranshah. Squadron Leader Athar Bokhari’s success of August 4th 1988 was unique in that it was the only one involving a Su-25 and a Soviet pilot. The mission began with a ‘hot’ scramble in F-16A 85-725 from Kamra at about 1900 hours, Athar being instructed by GCI to intercept four unidentified radar contacts. By the time he reached the area, however, all four had returned to the safe side of the border, so he began ‘CAPing’. At arounf 1950 hours, GCI reported the presence of four more ‘bogies’, although it is conceivable that this was the original group returning to the scene of the earlier acitivity. GCI also advised Ather that the contacts were gone 23 nm away, still 5 miles on the side of the border but that they were heading in easterly direction, which seemed to indicate that an incursion was imminent. Ather’s initial GCI vector was 300 degrees as he moved to cut off the threat. At a range of 18 nm he obtained a radar lock on one aircraft which was heading almost directly towards him. he also noted that there were about 4-6 miles of lateral separation between the pairs of enemy aircraft. The range continued to diminish and at 7 nm Athar began hearing the familiar growling sound as the infra-red seeker head of a sidewinder started tracking its target.


Thus far, though, DLZ criteria were not satisfied. It was at this range that his adversary started a rapid turn to the right, which was certainly tactically unsound and was eventually to be his downfall. In Athar’s own words, “He just came and turned in front of me…” Athar was then told by GCI to ‘go for it’, since his target was now about 7nm inside Pakistan with the other three members of the formation about 2-3 nm inside. At 5 nm, Athar was abeam the Su-25 and closing fast. He pulled into a left-hand turn which brought him to a heading of about 250260 degrees and allowed him to take up the almost classic six o’clock position at a range of about 3 nm. In just a few moments, DLZ criteria were met, but Athar allowed the HUD circle to flash three or four times before firing his starboard AIM-9L at a range of 2.5 nm. (Earlier he experienced some difficulty with the port AIM-9L, which would normally be fired first – this resulted in a decision to switch to a starboard weapon.)

At that moment, the target was at 26,000 ft and flying at a speed of about 290-300 kt; Athar was slightly below at 21,000 ft but with a high overtake at 510-520 kt in afterburner as he climbed towards the bandit. Athar was clearly confident in the capability of the sidewinder, for he fired just once and then waited for a few seconds to observe the fireball before breaking left and dropping to low level.


As he egressed the area on a heading of 120 degrees, he looked back and observed what he at first thought to be a number of missiles that had been fired at him. Notifying GCI that he believed himself to be under threat of attack, Athar popped a number of infra-red flares as he departed. It was only later that he reached the conclusion the ‘missiles’ he had seen were actually infra-red flares launched by other aircraft in the enemy formation. Within seconds of being hit by Athar’s sidewinder, the Su-25 pilot ejected. He was subsequently captured and interrogated, when it was learned that he was Colonel Alexandrov of the Soviet Armed Forces. Eventually, he was released into the care of the Soviet authorities but not before divulging that his initial thought on being hit was that he had a technical problem. Only later did the pilot realise that he had been shot down, but he remained adamant in his belief that he had been hit by a radar-guided missile (eiether an AIM-7 or an AIM-120) fired from a head-on pass and refused to accept that it was actually an AIM-9L fired from behind that brought about his downfall. he was however, relieved to be taken into custody by the Pakistan Army rather than Afghan Mujahideen forces and probably had good reason to feel that way. A section of wing taken from the wreckage has been placed on display close to the base commander’s office at Kamra.

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## Windjammer

A rare HUD image of the shooting down of Russian SU-25 by PAF F-16 described in the above chapter.

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## Windjammer

A PAF Viper sits in it's hangar, ready to light that afterburner at a moments notice.

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## CHACHA"G"

I have one question , If India buy F-16 from USA ,then , How friend and foe system on our F-16 will work?

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## his5850

we need to buy an other 4th generation plane or we need to fast step the acquisition of 5th generation of plan that is very dangerous if India start build F-16


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## Windjammer



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## WiderMan

Windjammer said:


> Armed with LGBs and targeting pod, a No 9 Squadron Viper heads out spoil the day for some terrorists.
> 
> View attachment 402471



Mk.82 GPBs not LGBs. Note the mechanical nose fuzes.


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## Basel

CHACHA"G" said:


> I have one question , If India buy F-16 from USA ,then , How friend and foe system on our F-16 will work?



Good question same goes to Indian F-16s too until they get customize IFF from US or get codes to customize IFF from US or US allow 3rd Party IFF on F-16 like on Israeli F-16s


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## khanasifm

F16 details

http://webcommunity.ilvolo.it/uso-dell-area-di-aircraft-walk-around-reportage-t188.html-view=next
http://webcommunity.ilvolo.it/uso-dell-area-di-aircraft-walk-around-reportage-t188.html-view=next
F16 wingtip pylon attachment point





F16 intake uncovered pylon attachment showing on the rib, correction this may not be intake but attachment point would look similar??






intake covered with pylon attachment point















































pylon attachment points






wing structure and hard points


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## Windjammer



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## MastanKhan

If a country buys fighter jets from the US, how likely is it that the jets come installed with "backdoor" software that can disable them?



Alexandre Kouyoumdjian, Have been reading about aircraft since I could read.
Answered Mon

I once had a conversation about this with a procurement official in the French Ministry of Defence, in charge of coordinating with his British peers. He told me that the latter were rather dismayed by a recent development in their F-35 procurement process.

See, jet fighters do not have ignition keys, but some (F-35 included) need a security code to be launched. In the F-35’s case, those codes are only valid 24 hours, and there is a dedicated generator for those codes. Essentially, you press a button on the generator, get a code, and you can use your plane that day (this may be somewhat simplified and slightly inaccurate as it is a second-hand account, but that would be the gist of it).

So far, so good. The only problem is that late in the negotiation process, the American side decided that it would keep those generators and supply the British with security codes as they were required.

As you can imagine, the British were enraged at this, as it simply means that the US can basically ground the entire F-35 fleet, just by refusing to provide the security codes for that day. In effect, this means that the UK cannot launch air operations without (at least reluctant) US approval.

I would imagine that many more such security measures are in place, in the F-35 and many other weapons systems alike ".

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## Sine Nomine

MastanKhan said:


> If a country buys fighter jets from the US, how likely is it that the jets come installed with "backdoor" software that can disable them?
> 
> 
> 
> Alexandre Kouyoumdjian, Have been reading about aircraft since I could read.
> Answered Mon
> 
> I once had a conversation about this with a procurement official in the French Ministry of Defence, in charge of coordinating with his British peers. He told me that the latter were rather dismayed by a recent development in their F-35 procurement process.
> 
> See, jet fighters do not have ignition keys, but some (F-35 included) need a security code to be launched. In the F-35’s case, those codes are only valid 24 hours, and there is a dedicated generator for those codes. Essentially, you press a button on the generator, get a code, and you can use your plane that day (this may be somewhat simplified and slightly inaccurate as it is a second-hand account, but that would be the gist of it).
> 
> So far, so good. The only problem is that late in the negotiation process, the American side decided that it would keep those generators and supply the British with security codes as they were required.
> 
> As you can imagine, the British were enraged at this, as it simply means that the US can basically ground the entire F-35 fleet, just by refusing to provide the security codes for that day. In effect, this means that the UK cannot launch air operations without (at least reluctant) US approval.
> 
> I would imagine that many more such security measures are in place, in the F-35 and many other weapons systems alike.


MK you know many would not believe what you want to state and will say that's illogical but let's discuss a logical matter.
With current Indo-US setup see US hell bent on pleasing India to use her against China sale of cutting edge P-8,Surveillance drones,Engines,Ah-64d's and offering them F-16 and many more things is not a small development.
No,lets go back to falkland wars and we all know that,How French and US betrayed Argentineans at last moment,have a look
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/worl...ped-britain-retake-the-falklands-7618420.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...helped-us-win-Falklands-war-by-John-Nott.html
At that time there wasn't any special love among them except Political and Economic ties.
No,take that is context of Indo-Pak scenario
Both are using weapons manufacturered in US and France,there is quite long list of Pakistani weapons of US origin and some considerable amount from France,Now what makes us think that US will like to see a country bogged down which is going to spearhead it's fight against China, and French with such massive deals they would happily provide them necessary intel on that Equipment.It's a matter of time before our F-16,Harpoons,Tps-77,AH-1's,TOW missiles,AIM-120's,Sidewinders and many more things if, not taken care would be a liability upon us in battlefield.

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## A.P. Richelieu

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> MK you know many would not believe what you want to state and will say that's illogical but let's discuss a logical matter.
> With current Indo-US setup see US hell bent on pleasing India to use her against China sale of cutting edge P-8,Surveillance drones,Engines,Ah-64d's and offering them F-16 and many more things is not a small development.
> No,lets go back to falkland wars and we all know that,How French and US betrayed Argentineans at last moment,have a look
> http://www.standard.co.uk/news/worl...ped-britain-retake-the-falklands-7618420.html
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...helped-us-win-Falklands-war-by-John-Nott.html
> At that time there wasn't any special love among them except Political and Economic ties.
> No,take that is context of Indo-Pak scenario
> Both are using weapons manufacturered in US and France,there is quite long list of Pakistani weapons of US origin and some considerable amount from France,Now what makes us think that US will like to see a country bogged down which is going to spearhead it's fight against China, and French with such massive deals they would happily provide them necessary intel on that Equipment.It's a matter of time before our F-16,Harpoons,Tps-77,AH-1's,TOW missiles,AIM-120's,Sidewinders and many more things if, not taken care would be a liability upon us in battlefield.



I guess You think U.K. and France betrayed Nazi Germany by declaring war
after Nazi Germany attacked Poland...
Both the U.S. and France are ALLIES of the U.K.
The U.K. could have invoke NATO Chapter 5, after the attack.

An Alliance is much more important than a vendor/customer relationship.
Thus the Argentinians had no reason to expect that the U.S. or France assume a neutral position.
Betrayal is only in Your bigoted mind.

If Pakistan desires to fight India, then its relationship with China will determine
the reaction from the U.S.
If China is not involved, the U.S. will try to stop the conflict.
It is unlikely to replenish either of the parties in this case.
If China is involved, the U.S. will most likely aid India, but leave Pakistan out to dry.

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## ashok321

All Uncle Sam's military hardware packaged with software is Veto prone for end users. 
The US always maintains the last word not only on its foreign sales but after-sales programs too. 

India's tango with the US seems beautiful to watch, but couple of mis-steps and you know what.

Of the two, its not India who can pull the strings, it always will be the US - have been so.

Indo-US friendship is questionable.







Whites live for whites.
Might is right, white is right.



> The US is now one of the top three arms suppliers to India, notching up sales worth $15 billion since 2007 to even dislodge Russia from the top slot for the last couple of years.

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## Sine Nomine

A.P. Richelieu said:


> An Alliance is much more important than a vendor/customer relationship.
> Thus the Argentinians had no reason to expect that the U.S. or France assume a neutral position.
> Betrayal is only in bigoted mind.


well thats production of your own Jingoist mind,UK did'nt called these parties formally to take part in that war,they all helped her due to mutual political and ecnomic interests,
US signed *Inter-American Treaty of Reciprocal Assistance *in 1947*,*even before NATO,but according to you honouring a treaty comes before buyer-seller relationship but that was'nt case over here.


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## A.P. Richelieu

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> well thats production of your own Jingoist mind,UK did'nt called these parties formally to take part in that war,they all helped her due to mutual political and ecnomic interests,
> US signed *Inter-American Treaty of Reciprocal Assistance *in 1947*,*even before NATO,but according to you honouring a treaty comes before buyer-seller relationship but that was'nt case over here.


Since the Argentinians attacked first, it is not applicable - Fake News - more dishonesty.


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## Sine Nomine

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Since the Argentinians attacked first, it is not applicable - Fake News - more dishonesty.


Oh,so much moral high ground being exercised.


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## A.P. Richelieu

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Oh,so much moral high ground being exercised.


Better that, than to live in the gutter.
Not my fault that You are sloppy.


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## Sine Nomine

A.P. Richelieu said:


> Better that, than to live in the gutter.
> Not my fault that You are sloppy.


oh ho it's still better to live in gutter then trying to live on suprious land of moral high grounds,but your doltish nature is not my fault...
FAREWELL...


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## A.P. Richelieu

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> oh ho it's still better to live in gutter then trying to live on suprious land of moral high grounds,but your doltish nature is not my fault...
> FAREWELL...


When in error, when in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout...
Now on ignore.


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## BATMAN

MastanKhan said:


> See, jet fighters do not have ignition keys, but some (F-35 included) need a security code to be launched. In the F-35’s case, those codes are only valid 24 hours, and there is a dedicated generator for those codes. Essentially, you press a button on the generator, get a code, and you can use your plane that day (this may be somewhat simplified and slightly inaccurate as it is a second-hand account, but that would be the gist of it).



I wanted to describe it the other day, but I was discouraged because of the behavior of holycows.

What you describe, sounds like a bank's security code generator systems, which comes in variety.
One you described is like: You download an app to your personal device (in this case device can be onboard/offboard computer) using personal id, you end up having your personal/unique app. connected to your device and account. Now every time you need to login, you contact certain secure site, which generate QR code on screen, which you shall scan using your personal device having personal/unique app, if all matches, than your personal device receive a numeric code, which is generated by an automated code generator SW, which you (pilot) will enter to login. In case of bank account, by default there are limits over online transactions, however you may ask for changes, but you see no difference in login process. Basically a code can have limits hidden in it, which basically are in control of your bank.

There is another commonly known tech. used by companies to restrict ''unauthentic access'' or allow ''licensed access'' to its HW/SW.
Why its needed: Since all hitech electronic HW is manufactured in China, which was designed/developed in EU/US. If there's no lock, you will soon see a Chinese/Indian version of it.
Trick is to have a mix of HW-SW key (aka-dongle) this HW key will be programmed as having unique code id (as an example: code is generated at company's head office and keys are programed subsequently).
Now when proprietary hitech HW is loaded with proprietary SW, it will not perform certain tasks and limits the performance of machine, or not perform at all, unless a matching code is written in its SW, which again can be with aid of special interface or simple keyboard, but it effectively kicks out the owner of HW of having any control over its property. This prevents ''unauthorized'' use of tech. but if I'm not in good terms with ''authorized'' user, manufacturer of HW can just declare ''authorized'' user as rouge element/state and multi billion $ HW is as good as trash.

Another common one, we all know is GPS triggered car immobilizers.

Now these are commonly known and widely used 'kill switches' we come across daily, where limit is defined by manufacturer of HW.

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## MastanKhan

BATMAN said:


> I wanted to describe it the other day, but I was discouraged because of the behavior of holycows.
> 
> What you describe, sounds like a bank's security code generator systems, which comes in variety.
> One you described is like: You download an app to your personal device (in this case device can be onboard/offboard computer) using personal id, you end up having your personal/unique app. connected to your device and account. Now every time you need to login, you contact certain secure site, which generate QR code on screen, which you shall scan using your personal device having personal/unique app, if all matches, than your personal device receive a numeric code, which is generated by an automated code generator SW, which you (pilot) will enter to login. In case of bank account, by default there are limits over online transactions, however you may ask for changes, but you see no difference in login process. Basically a code can have limits hidden in it, which basically are in control of your bank.
> 
> There is another commonly known tech. used by companies to restrict ''unauthentic access'' or allow ''licensed access'' to its HW/SW.
> Why its needed: Since all hitech electronic HW is manufactured in China, which was designed/developed in EU/US. If there's no lock, you will soon see a Chinese/Indian version of it.
> Trick is to have a mix of HW-SW key (aka-dongle) this HW key will be programmed as having unique code id (as an example: code is generated at company's head office and keys are programed subsequently).
> Now when proprietary hitech HW is loaded with proprietary SW, it will not perform certain tasks and limits the performance of machine, or not perform at all, unless a matching code is written in its SW, which again can be with aid of special interface or simple keyboard, but it effectively kicks out the owner of HW of having any control over its property. This prevents ''unauthorized'' use of tech. but if I'm not in good terms with ''authorized'' user, manufacturer of HW can just declare ''authorized'' user as rouge element/state and multi billion $ HW is as good as trash.
> 
> Another common one, we all know is GPS triggered car immobilizers.
> 
> Now these are commonly known and widely used 'kill switches' we come across daily, where limit is defined by manufacturer of HW.



Hi,

This was an article on Quora----. And I have talked about it many a times showing different conditions of ' kill switches '.

What the writer has written is your basic kill switch---you cannot start without a code---it is the simplest of the kill switches---.

The other forms that I have discussed in the past is---engine control---fuel control---. The computer can control the fuel pump pressure---amount of fuel going into the engine---.

Rudder control---aileron control--stick control---pitch control---anything and everything that has an electric motor actuator---is connected with an electric wire---has a data link connection---has a kill switch.

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## BATMAN

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This was an article on Quora----. And I have talked about it many a times showing different conditions of ' kill switches '.
> 
> What the writer has written is your basic kill switch---you cannot start without a code---it is the simplest of the kill switches---.
> 
> The other forms that I have discussed in the past is---engine control---fuel control---. The computer can control the fuel pump pressure---amount of fuel going into the engine---.
> 
> Rudder control---aileron control--stick control---pitch control---anything and everything that has an electric motor actuator---is connected with an electric wire---has a data link connection---has a kill switch.



Yes Sir, I can write lengths.... because I come across these 'unauthorized access control' switches in my profession.
Irrespective, customer has fully paid and whole own the equipment, non of his engineers can put it in operation, without knowing a simple, yet complex code.

In real life, moment you sign contract with commercial companies, you are bound to their term&conditions, which is fine print made by specialist legal teams.

When we are buying defense equipment from US, senate set conditions on top of the fine print, which are based on inputs from its intel. agencies, homeland security etc.
If US manufacturer fails to comply the set conditions, he can't sell. If it sells he has to demonstrate the limits set by senate and local legal system, to the state inspectors. If buyer hacks into US HW, supplier has to have protections for that due to commercial/copy right reasons, without senate even asking for it.
I believe, control over start and shut down at will, is a minimum switch which is integrated by default.

Sorry for another lengthy post... I like to put down an example:
Pakistan India are at war and India PM run to US in middle of war, because AIM-120 are too smart for SU-30 to avoid. On the other hand, Pakistan is having an uncorrupted general at helm of the affairs, who is not responding to the calls from white house. How do we think, Pakistani general will be forced to the table of negotiations?

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> If a country buys fighter jets from the US, how likely is it that the jets come installed with "backdoor" software that can disable them?
> 
> 
> 
> Alexandre Kouyoumdjian, Have been reading about aircraft since I could read.
> Answered Mon
> 
> I once had a conversation about this with a procurement official in the French Ministry of Defence, in charge of coordinating with his British peers. He told me that the latter were rather dismayed by a recent development in their F-35 procurement process.
> 
> See, jet fighters do not have ignition keys, but some (F-35 included) need a security code to be launched. In the F-35’s case, those codes are only valid 24 hours, and there is a dedicated generator for those codes. Essentially, you press a button on the generator, get a code, and you can use your plane that day (this may be somewhat simplified and slightly inaccurate as it is a second-hand account, but that would be the gist of it).
> 
> So far, so good. The only problem is that late in the negotiation process, the American side decided that it would keep those generators and supply the British with security codes as they were required.
> 
> As you can imagine, the British were enraged at this, as it simply means that the US can basically ground the entire F-35 fleet, just by refusing to provide the security codes for that day. In effect, this means that the UK cannot launch air operations without (at least reluctant) US approval.
> 
> I would imagine that many more such security measures are in place, in the F-35 and many other weapons systems alike ".


So have I since I could read, and I had a conversation with someone who flew and commanded our F-16 sq and also with a block-62 pilot. Even our earliest block-15s had such encryption for radio and navigation- and even in the 90s pressler years the attaché provided them.

The actual restrictions are to keep the Chinese out

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## Sinnerman108

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This was an article on Quora----. And I have talked about it many a times showing different conditions of ' kill switches '.
> 
> What the writer has written is your basic kill switch---you cannot start without a code---it is the simplest of the kill switches---.
> 
> The other forms that I have discussed in the past is---engine control---fuel control---. The computer can control the fuel pump pressure---amount of fuel going into the engine---.
> 
> Rudder control---aileron control--stick control---pitch control---anything and everything that has an electric motor actuator---is connected with an electric wire---has a data link connection---has a kill switch.



Mastan Sahib

Lets take advantage of your nationality, and now you could tell us about the piece of legislation
passed by Congress many years ago that make all defense equipment manufacturers
bound to ensure that the weapons could never be used against US interests.

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This was an article on Quora----. And I have talked about it many a times showing different conditions of ' kill switches '.
> 
> What the writer has written is your basic kill switch---you cannot start without a code---it is the simplest of the kill switches---.
> 
> The other forms that I have discussed in the past is---engine control---fuel control---. The computer can control the fuel pump pressure---amount of fuel going into the engine---.
> 
> Rudder control---aileron control--stick control---pitch control---anything and everything that has an electric motor actuator---is connected with an electric wire---has a data link connection---has a kill switch.


But it should not be difficult to dump the code and reverse the work and figure out what is where and comment them out. Generally always we left back doors for any units we sold to our customers.

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## MastanKhan

BATMAN said:


> I wanted to describe it the other day, but I was discouraged because of the behavior of holycows.
> 
> What you describe, sounds like a bank's security code generator systems, which comes in variety.
> One you described is like: You download an app to your personal device (in this case device can be onboard/offboard computer) using personal id, you end up having your personal/unique app. connected to your device and account. Now every time you need to login, you contact certain secure site, which generate QR code on screen, which you shall scan using your personal device having personal/unique app, if all matches, than your personal device receive a numeric code, which is generated by an automated code generator SW, which you (pilot) will enter to login. In case of bank account, by default there are limits over online transactions, however you may ask for changes, but you see no difference in login process. Basically a code can have limits hidden in it, which basically are in control of your bank.
> 
> There is another commonly known tech. used by companies to restrict ''unauthentic access'' or allow ''licensed access'' to its HW/SW.
> Why its needed: Since all hitech electronic HW is manufactured in China, which was designed/developed in EU/US. If there's no lock, you will soon see a Chinese/Indian version of it.
> Trick is to have a mix of HW-SW key (aka-dongle) this HW key will be programmed as having unique code id (as an example: code is generated at company's head office and keys are programed subsequently).
> Now when proprietary hitech HW is loaded with proprietary SW, it will not perform certain tasks and limits the performance of machine, or not perform at all, unless a matching code is written in its SW, which again can be with aid of special interface or simple keyboard, but it effectively kicks out the owner of HW of having any control over its property. This prevents ''unauthorized'' use of tech. but if I'm not in good terms with ''authorized'' user, manufacturer of HW can just declare ''authorized'' user as rouge element/state and multi billion $ HW is as good as trash.
> 
> Another common one, we all know is GPS triggered car immobilizers.
> 
> Now these are commonly known and widely used 'kill switches' we come across daily, where limit is defined by manufacturer of HW.



Hi,

Thank you for an excellent post---I had to read it twice---.

Your quote---" Another common one, we all know is GPS triggered car immobilizers.

Now these are commonly known and widely used 'kill switches' we come across daily, where limit is defined by manufacturer of HW."

That is one very important consideration.

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## khanasifm

Guessing here but looks like another pak Afghan US effort to go for military plus political victory over Afghan talibs and may be paf will get approval to get Jordanian f-16s or other Eda


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## denel

khanasifm said:


> Guessing here but looks like another pak Afghan US effort to go for military plus political victory over Afghan talibs and may be paf will get approval to get Jordanian f-16s or other Eda


Thanks for bringing it up ... it been over 1 year since news of jordanian f-16s were circulating; is there some motion still underway or they will just show up unannounced?


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## Windjammer



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## Incog_nito

Is PAF looking to acquire more used F-16s from US and from other countries?


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## Sameer25

Oxair Online said:


> Is PAF looking to acquire more used F-16s from US and from other countries?


I doubt it but there is a Hope. I wonder if we can get our hands on the Block 60 or AIM-9X

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## fatman17

Just a nice pic

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## nomi007

AIM-9L/I-1 missiles


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## Sameer25

nomi007 said:


> AIM-9L/I-1 missiles


i wish pakistan could get the aim 9x


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## Raider 21

nomi007 said:


> AIM-9L/I-1 missiles


The AIM-9L...what a missile. Used against so many other jets....even downed a Viper.

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## Windjammer

fatman17 said:


> View attachment 412682
> 
> Just a nice pic


My picture and it shows an armed Block-52D over rugged terrain of Afghan border on Taliban Hunt.
With more JF-17s adopting the ADA role, the F-16 fleet is polishing up on their ground strike capabilities.....hence some of the Vipers permanently carry the laser pods.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Windjammer said:


> My picture and it shows an armed Block-52D over rugged terrain of Afghan border on Taliban Hunt.
> With more JF-17s adopting the ADA role, the F-16 fleet is polishing up on their ground strike capabilities.....hence some of the Vipers permanently carry the laser pods.
> 
> View attachment 413062


This pilot is also wearing a floatation vest, which indicates that the Block-52+ are also there for maritime duties.

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## khanasifm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This pilot is also wearing a floatation vest, which indicates that the Block-52+ are also there for maritime duties.



Not true even in Country flight you will see it as its not just for Sea but any water ways , river etc

Lastly first batch of sniper I think all 18 went to no 5 and remaining 22 or so will got to 11 and 9 

No 19 gets old French atlis pods or shares with 9/11, not sure how many were acquired 

Jf getting aselpod but I do not think one for one is over kill each sqn may get enough for 4-6 for strike role

Again guessing

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## Sameer25

Windjammer said:


> My picture and it shows an armed Block-52D over rugged terrain of Afghan border on Taliban Hunt.
> With more JF-17s adopting the ADA role, the F-16 fleet is polishing up on their ground strike capabilities.....hence some of the Vipers permanently carry the laser pods.
> 
> View attachment 413062


im pretty sure that is a F-16C because D is two seater


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## Raider 21

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This pilot is also wearing a floatation vest, which indicates that the Block-52+ are also there for maritime duties.


Pretty standard....I wore it even when I was working in flight test with Vipers. Then again we were always near the water.

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## Windjammer

Sameer25 said:


> im pretty sure that is a F-16C because D is two seater


I was talking about the aircraft in post-10058

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## Sameer25

Windjammer said:


> I was talking about the aircraft in post-10058


my bad


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Knuckles said:


> Pretty standard....I wore it even when I was working in flight test with Vipers. Then again we were always near the water.


Yea you'll notice a lot of PAF pilots without it, not necessary when exclusively operating over land. This is the 4th pic I've seen of the best in the PAF - once on F-16 pilots during Anatolian Eagle, a Mirage pilot at Masroor, some A-5 pilots (see PAF A New Dawn) and this Block-52 guy.

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## Raider 21

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yea you'll notice a lot of PAF pilots without it, not necessary when exclusively operating over land. This is the 4th pic I've seen of the best in the PAF - once on F-16 pilots during Anatolian Eagle, a Mirage pilot at Masroor, some A-5 pilots (see PAF A New Dawn) and this Block-52 guy.


Yeah I recall when I used to see father when he was with No.9 squadron in the early 90s....he never wore it as it wasn't available back then, despite flying off the coast near Karachi (local exercises, Inspired Alert, Firepower demo etc). These days he wears everytime he goes for a sortie.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Knuckles said:


> Yeah I recall when I used to see father when he was with No.9 squadron in the early 90s....he never wore it as it wasn't available back then, despite flying off the coast near Karachi (local exercises, Inspired Alert, Firepower demo etc). These days he wears everytime he goes for a sortie.


Yeah I remember seeing videos of Mirage 5PA pilots wearing orange, but no vests. It was weird. Was the flotation device strapped to the back of the pilot back then?

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## Raider 21

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yeah I remember seeing videos of Mirage 5PA pilots wearing orange, but no vests. It was weird. Was the flotation device strapped to the back of the pilot back then?


Yeah those guys were tasked with maritime operations. I wouldn't know the stuff they used by the Mirage drivers....as the chute and torso harnesses for the F-16s and Mirages are different.


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## Windjammer

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This pilot is also wearing a floatation vest, which indicates that the Block-52+ are also there for maritime duties.


If i remember correctly, PAF pilots participating in last Red Flag were also supporting those vests, albeit i understand those exercises are held over Nevada Desert.

*Some classic images of PAF Block-52s in Red Flag 2016.*

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## Taygibay

The flotation device is mandatory nowadays in most AFs.
An unconscious pilot will drown in a backyard pool without
it and there are many of these in suburbia USA not counting
the giant fountains of the Bellagio.

Floating with your head out of the water sounds useful to me.

Have a good day all, Tay.

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## Readerdefence

Oxair Online said:


> Is PAF looking to acquire more used F-16s from US and from other countries?


Hi at the moment US is not even ready to reimburse the coalition support fund beside that I think until unless India decide about acquiring its single engine jet or LM set up no more f16 directly from America hence if some of the nations getting f35 can make us agreed upon to supply their f16 it might work that way
Hope so if we are that much desperate to get hands on f16 
Thx



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This pilot is also wearing a floatation vest, which indicates that the Block-52+ are also there for maritime duties.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oxair Online said:


> Is PAF looking to acquire more used F-16s from US and from other countries?


Used F-16s should be a natural option. The Block-32 can have engine commonality with the Block-52 and studies are underway at LM for structural replenishment, even for the Block-30/32 (via TAI). They would be an affordable buy even on the PAF's budget. It's curious that the PAF hasn't pushed or been able to make inroads on that front.

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## Incog_nito

Sameer25 said:


> I doubt it but there is a Hope. I wonder if we can get our hands on the Block 60 or AIM-9X


Block-60 might not be on our option table.

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## khanasifm

Couple pf points

1. F16 are available if PAK/Paf is willing to pay for them at full price 
2. 1 sqn of 16 block 2 JF with weapons costed international customer $560 M, PAf will pay far less 
3. 8 F16s cost was 699M or least round it $700 M
4. Thus 16 F16 sqn would cost 1.4B
5. 2 JF sqns for the cost of 1 F16 sqn 
6. Reality is JF sqn was first international sale so included training, plus other support elements which may not be required for subsequent sales (for PAF)
7. it is safe to assume 1 f16 sqn costs more than 2 JF -17 sqns

PAF will prefer to buy F16 only if it make sense i,e subsidized or may opt for used ones just to add more F16s and convert some for spares/reserves in future

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## Incog_nito

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Used F-16s should be a natural option. The Block-32 can have engine commonality with the Block-52 and studies are underway at LM for structural replenishment, even for the Block-30/32 (via TAI). They would be an affordable buy even on the PAF's budget. It's curious that the PAF hasn't pushed or been able to make inroads on that front.



It would be better if PAF just look for Block-15s and some for spares.


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## ziaulislam

khanasifm said:


> Couple pf points
> 
> 1. F16 are available if PAK/Paf is willing to pay for them at full price
> 2. 1 sqn of 16 block 2 JF with weapons costed international customer $560 M, PAf will pay far less
> 3. 8 F16s cost was 699M or least round it $700 M
> 4. Thus 16 F16 sqn would cost 1.4B
> 5. 2 JF sqns for the cost of 1 F16 sqn
> 6. Reality is JF sqn was first international sale so included training, plus other support elements which may not be required for subsequent sales (for PAF)
> 7. it is safe to assume 1 f16 sqn costs more than 2 JF -17 sqns
> 
> PAF will prefer to buy F16 only if it make sense i,e subsidized or may opt for used ones just to add more F16s and convert some for spares/reserves in future


its 3:1 actually atleast
Indonesia brought used f-16c/d with training and weapons for approx 24+8 spares=~ 750M
so used f-16 can be cheaper or same cost of jf-17. but i diubt USA is willing to release those


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## Sameer25

Oxair Online said:


> Block-60 might not be on our option table.


Aim-9x?


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## khanasifm

Jordanian 13 ac plus sqn support gse and one simulator costed approx 75 million with average life of 3000 hours, totAl life of f7p is 24-2800 hours ..  nothing beats that

Even if it's not mlued they provide excellent aa role and day ag role

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## Windjammer

*A rare close up of a PAF Viper tanking with USAF KC-135 during Red Flag.






*

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> *A rare close up of a PAF Viper tanking with USAF KC-135 during Red Flag.
> 
> 
> View attachment 414042
> *






anatolian eagle



Windjammer said:


> My picture and it shows an armed Block-52D over rugged terrain of Afghan border on Taliban Hunt.
> With more JF-17s adopting the ADA role, the F-16 fleet is polishing up on their ground strike capabilities.....hence some of the Vipers permanently carry the laser pods.
> 
> View attachment 413062


what do u mean by term "my picture"..?


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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> View attachment 414518
> anatolian eagle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what do u mean by term "my picture"..?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was talking about this one, first sent to me by a contact in the PAF.
Click to expand...


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## Talon

wish could find these photos in full size..i do have contact with a turkish viper pilot but maybe he want be of use


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## Incog_nito

Every wise Military strategist here can calculate that IAF will never go for F-16s. Trump is aggressive but still selling new AH-1Z Vipers and I am sure if this time negotiated well will gonna release 28 or so remaining F-16s to Pakistan. Also, USAF might be retiring some Block-15s - so will PAF going to avail it?


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## ziaulislam

Oxair Online said:


> Every wise Military strategist here can calculate that IAF will never go for F-16s. Trump is aggressive but still selling new AH-1Z Vipers and I am sure if this time negotiated well will gonna release 28 or so remaining F-16s to Pakistan. Also, USAF might be retiring some Block-15s - so will PAF going to avail it?


but the deal is so sweet that essentailly this has blocked f-16 for us for the time being and thus therefore we will not get any new
real question is why are we not able to get older f-16s, they are available all over the world especially in Europe, i think the problem is USA approval or PAF reluctance to get f-16s from other sources

i am sure USA would have no issues on new f-16s but older ones are going to be released only on favours



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Used F-16s should be a natural option. The Block-32 can have engine commonality with the Block-52 and studies are underway at LM for structural replenishment, even for the Block-30/32 (via TAI). They would be an affordable buy even on the PAF's budget. It's curious that the PAF hasn't pushed or been able to make inroads on that front.


one example is the Indonesian deal of 24 f-16c/d B 52 @700 million. 
i mean i am surprised why nothing happened on used f-16 front
way back in 2004 the original deal did consisted mix of used and new f-16s as well, which was later reduced from 55 to just 18
I would say a military dictator/leadership did successfully push alot for defense deals aggressively and was able to get most of the equipment Pakistan needed

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## CriticalThought

ziaulislam said:


> but the deal is so sweet that essentailly this has blocked f-16 for us for the time being and thus therefore we will not get any new
> real question is why are we not able to get older f-16s, they are available all over the world especially in Europe, i think the problem is USA approval or PAF reluctance to get f-16s from other sources
> 
> i am sure USA would have no issues on new f-16s but older ones are going to be released only on favours
> 
> 
> one example is the Indonesian deal of 24 f-16c/d B 52 @700 million.
> i mean i am surprised why nothing happened on used f-16 front
> way back in 2004 the original deal did consisted mix of used and new f-16s as well, which was later reduced from 55 to just 18
> I would say a military dictator/leadership did successfully push alot for defense deals aggressively and was able to get most of the equipment Pakistan needed



And we should have quickly made good on those deals. Today, we stand accused of back-stabbing and dishonesty by the back-stabbers and dishonest Americans. This is the beginning of a campaign of maligning people's image that usually results in war. Example: the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. We need to get proactive in countering this narrative.


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## nomi007



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## Windjammer

*Taliban Hunter...A PAF Block-52D armed with bombs sweeps low over rugged terrain near the Afghan border hunting down terrorists and their hideouts. *

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## Talon

Check this out @Windjammer @fatman17 @Knuckles .Taken at Mushaf..

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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> but the deal is so sweet that essentailly this has blocked f-16 for us for the time being and thus therefore we will not get any new
> real question is why are we not able to get older f-16s, they are available all over the world especially in Europe, i think the problem is USA approval or PAF reluctance to get f-16s from other sources
> 
> i am sure USA would have no issues on new f-16s but older ones are going to be released only on favours
> 
> 
> one example is the Indonesian deal of 24 f-16c/d B 52 @700 million.
> i mean i am surprised why nothing happened on used f-16 front
> way back in 2004 the original deal did consisted mix of used and new f-16s as well, which was later reduced from 55 to just 18
> I would say a military dictator/leadership did successfully push alot for defense deals aggressively and was able to get most of the equipment Pakistan needed


I am also very surprised there is no traction especially when it was on record they were going to get a second batch from Jordan. Has that deal dissolved? As you note there are plenty of used f-16s; by now there is no reason why PAC would not have mastered complete maintenance like they did with Mirages to be able to work with TAI and build internal expertise.

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## syed_yusuf

Hodor said:


> Check this out @Windjammer @fatman17 @Knuckles .Taken at Mushaf..
> View attachment 415850



is this an upgraded F-16 at PAC, it seems quite a few of the airframe parts got replaced. was this example damaged?

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## ziaulislam

denel said:


> I am also very surprised there is no traction especially when it was on record they were going to get a second batch from Jordan. Has that deal dissolved? As you note there are plenty of used f-16s; by now there is no reason why PAC would not have mastered complete maintenance like they did with Mirages to be able to work with TAI and build internal expertise.


i think the issue is objection from USA on used f-16s and lack of complete independence to integrate own weapons like we had with mirage5/3.


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## salman-1

This could be a structural upgrade or major parts replacement test bird, there seems to be some more hard point like new holes or it could've be structural techniques

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## razgriz19

syed_yusuf said:


> is this an upgraded F-16 at PAC, it seems quite a few of the airframe parts got replaced. was this example damaged?


There is nothing that says parts were changed. You can't just change the wing of an aircraft, it would cost the price of the aircraft at this point in its life. They must've done some major maintenance and stripped the parts of paint

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## MastanKhan

salman-1 said:


> This could be a structural upgrade or major parts replacement test bird, there seems to be some more hard point like new holes or it could've be structural techniques



Hi,

That looks more like change in the skin.

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## syed_yusuf

It seems PAC fixed some structural parts to make this bird flyable 

If so a great achievement 

Can anybody confirmed

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## fatman17

syed_yusuf said:


> It seems PAC fixed some structural parts to make this bird flyable
> 
> If so a great achievement
> 
> Can anybody confirmed


There were almost 45 PAF ground technicians under training at TAI during the MLU process, so this is entirely possible

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## Talon

syed_yusuf said:


> is this an upgraded F-16 at PAC, it seems quite a few of the airframe parts got replaced. was this example damaged?


all i know is its landing at Mushaf,Sargodha so ofcourse not PAC and thats why i uploaded it

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## umair86pk

This might have been skin replacement as they can be replaced to increase airframe life. This is 602 one of the initial batch that arrived in 1983 its structural life could have been coming to end thats why it received structural upgrade.

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## syed_yusuf

Even skin replacement cannot be done at an airbase, so was it done at PAC? or at turkey


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## Windjammer



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## CriticalThought

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 416019



@Bilal Khan (Quwa) comments?


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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> i think the issue is objection from USA on used f-16s and lack of complete independence to integrate own weapons like we had with mirage5/3.


I find that hard to believe. You have the technical expertise to be able to reverse engineer any code; the premise that if you will fail to get any upgrades if you ever try to customise is long passe. Anyone who works in this field knows that once you get hold of any system, the first thing you have to get done is to dump their entire code and understand what it is doing; it is not quantum physics.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> I find that hard to believe. You have the technical expertise to be able to reverse engineer any code; the premise that if you will fail to get any upgrades if you ever try to customise is long passe. Anyone who works in this field knows that once you get hold of any system, the first thing you have to get done is to dump their entire code and understand what it is doing; it is not quantum physics.


Sadly, the U.S. imposed quite a few restrictions on the PAF's F-16s (for IP sensitivities vis-a-vis China). I was also told by some retired PAF people that the PAF leadership was also reluctant to customize the F-16s outside of what has been done by the U.S. defence industry. In the 1980s the PAF had integrated the ATLIS targeting pod, but since then it has been on the hook for relatively steep support fees. 

Further to that, there are some supply-side issues from the U.S. on hardware that isn't strictly relevant to COIN. Knowing the PAF's history (with used jets), it is wildly curious that the PAF has not pursued any used F-16s from the U.S. It almost certainly seems like there are supply-side issues from the U.S.

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## Windjammer

A PAF F-16 engaged in rehearsals for 14th August over it's respective air base, soon same will start over the Capital.

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Sadly, the U.S. imposed quite a few restrictions on the PAF's F-16s (for IP sensitivities vis-a-vis China). I was also told by some retired PAF people that the PAF leadership was also reluctant to customize the F-16s outside of what has been done by the U.S. defence industry. In the 1980s the PAF had integrated the ATLIS targeting pod, but since then it has been on the hook for relatively steep support fees.
> 
> Further to that, there are some supply-side issues from the U.S. on hardware that isn't strictly relevant to COIN. Knowing the PAF's history (with used jets), it is wildly curious that the PAF has not pursued any used F-16s from the U.S. It almost certainly seems like there are supply-side issues from the U.S.


which direct us back to basic question, why did PAF opted for new f-16s back in 2006-07 if f-16 was having so many restrictions, there should have been a better negotiated deal with more freedom back in 2007


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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> which direct us back to basic question, why did PAF opted for new f-16s back in 2006-07 if f-16 was having so many restrictions, there should have been a better negotiated deal with more freedom back in 2007



Hi,

For the reasons that I have talked about for years---they are sellouts---. 

Members have been fighting with me for a decade now---slowly they are begining to believe that there are traitors leading in the Paf

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## khanasifm

Good example BAE won Taiwan upgrade and then it was cancelled because where will they go I mean BAE to lm to get upgrade kits and then perform upgrade anyway Oem will make everything to keep business eventually BAE order was cancelled and lm got it again


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## VCheng

denel said:


> Anyone who works in this field knows that once you get hold of any system, *the first thing you have to get done is to dump their entire code and understand what it is doing*; it is not quantum physics.



If only it were that easy. How many _millions _of line of code does an F-16 have, Sir, and in how many different systems that interact with each other?


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## CriticalThought

ziaulislam said:


> which direct us back to basic question, why did PAF opted for new f-16s back in 2006-07 if f-16 was having so many restrictions, there should have been a better negotiated deal with more freedom back in 2007



Because, even with all the restrictions, just flying Thunder against the Block 52 allows you to learn a lot and shows you how to improve the Thunder. This is true wrt dog fighting, radar evasion, ECCM. And for air to surface role, it shows you what a modern fighter can achieve, so you have a benchmark for Thunder.

All this talk of treason is absolute BS and hogwash.

Even today, if they can get their hands on Block 60+ I'd say go for it. Restrictions and all.



Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> If only it were that easy. How many _millions _of line of code does an F-16 have, Sir, and in how many different systems that interact with each other?



You obviously have no knowledge of reverse engineering.

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## VCheng

CriticalThought said:


> You obviously have no knowledge of reverse engineering.




And you obviously are underestimating the safeguards built into the entire system.


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## CriticalThought

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> And you obviously are underestimating the safeguards built into the entire system.



You obviously don't know what tools hackers can wield.


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## VCheng

CriticalThought said:


> You obviously don't know what tools hackers can wield.



Is that why Pakistani F-16s cannot fly a mission with the DTCs containing valid encryption keys provided by a US representative?


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## CriticalThought

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> Is that why Pakistani F-16s cannot fly a mission with the DTCs containing valid encryption keys?



It's because PAF doesn't want to.


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## VCheng

CriticalThought said:


> It's because PAF doesn't want to.



Of course. How law-abidingly nice of them.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> which direct us back to basic question, why did PAF opted for new f-16s back in 2006-07 if f-16 was having so many restrictions, there should have been a better negotiated deal with more freedom back in 2007


The official explanation is that "relations were good" when they finalized the Peace Drive contract in 2006. These supply-side problems really began after the OBL raid, around the time Obama made the Pivot to Asia move, which resulted in strengthening India and basically relegating defence assistance to Pakistan to COIN only.

The PAF also didn't foresee a long five-year PPP government (in 06), which dried procurement resources. So even the FC-20, which was intended to be the F-16 alternate, had to be dropped.

All that said, the PAF leadership seems to agree that an interim 4+ gen fighter is necessary, and that the "leading options" are in China and Russia. Let's see... J-10B/C, Su-35, Su-30SME and MiG-35?

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The official explanation is that "relations were good" when they finalized the Peace Drive contract in 2006. These supply-side problems really began after the OBL raid, around the time Obama made the Pivot to Asia move, which resulted in strengthening India and basically relegating defence assistance to Pakistan to COIN only.
> 
> The PAF also didn't foresee a long five-year PPP government (in 06), which dried procurement resources. So even the FC-20, which was intended to be the F-16 alternate, had to be dropped.
> 
> All that said, the PAF leadership seems to agree that an interim 4+ gen fighter is necessary, and that the "leading options" are in China and Russia. Let's see... J-10B/C, Su-35, Su-30SME and MiG-35?



@Zarvan bookmark this post and if anyone gives you grief in the future, just post a link to it

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> @Zarvan bookmark this post and if anyone gives you grief in the future, just post a link to it


The 'Zarvan effect' (upon new rifles, new SPH, T129s, MILGEM, new tank, etc)

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The official explanation is that "relations were good" when they finalized the Peace Drive contract in 2006. These supply-side problems really began after the OBL raid, around the time Obama made the Pivot to Asia move, which resulted in strengthening India and basically relegating defence assistance to Pakistan to COIN only.
> 
> The PAF also didn't foresee a long five-year PPP government (in 06), which dried procurement resources. So even the FC-20, which was intended to be the F-16 alternate, had to be dropped.
> 
> All that said, the PAF leadership seems to agree that an interim 4+ gen fighter is necessary, and that the "leading options" are in China and Russia. Let's see... J-10B/C, Su-35, Su-30SME and MiG-35?



Hi Bilal,

Thank you for your post---what you are writing is just the tip of the imcompetence---.

The Paf is a totally incompetent organization when it comes to procure the right aircraft for the defense of the nation---.

Its role should be left just to plan for war and be ready to support and fight---procurement should be taken away from it---.

I guarantee---whatever aircraft is shoved down their throats they will fly it good---.

The mentality of the Paf generals is like a kid in a candy shop with a quarter in his hands and cannot decide what candy to buy---.



Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> If only it were that easy. How many _millions _of line of code does an F-16 have, Sir, and in how many different systems that interact with each other?



Syed,

That guy is a pro---. Paf cannot do it---because it does not have a fall back plan.

When the idiots in the blue uniform openly state that the F16 is the best and the J10 is not that good---in layman terms you are handing out your ballz to the other party and telling them---you can squeeze them anytime that you want to.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Hi Bilal,
> 
> Thank you for your post---what you are writing is just the tipped of the imcompetence---.
> 
> The Paf is a totally incompetent organization when it comes to procure the right aircraft for the defense of the nation---.
> 
> Its role should be left just to plan for war and be ready to support and fight---procurement should be taken away from it---.
> 
> I guarantee---whatever aircraft is shoved down their throats they will fly it good---.
> 
> The mentality of the Paf generals is like a kid in a candy shop with a quarter in his hands and cannot decide what candy to buy---.
> 
> 
> 
> Syed,
> 
> That guy is a pro---. Paf cannot do it---because it does not have a fall back plan.
> 
> When the idiots in the blue uniform openly state that the F16 is the best and the J10 is not that good---in layman terms you are handing out your ballz to the other party and telling them---you can squeeze them anytime that you want to.


Generally speaking, decisions as to whom Pakistan has (or will have) "good relations" with should be left to the government. However, the situation in Pakistan is such that GHQ, AHQ and NHQ are quasi-foreign affairs offices and have taken upon themselves to make decisions that should be left to the Prime Minister or Foreign Minister. I mean, USAF is pretty friendly with the PAF, but I don't think the White House or DoD give a hoot about what USAF thinks.

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## Zarvan

Deals will take place soon the crap political situation resulted in delay


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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The official explanation is that "relations were good" when they finalized the Peace Drive contract in 2006. These supply-side problems really began after the OBL raid, around the time Obama made the Pivot to Asia move, which resulted in strengthening India and basically relegating defence assistance to Pakistan to COIN only.
> 
> The PAF also didn't foresee a long five-year PPP government (in 06), which dried procurement resources. So even the FC-20, which was intended to be the F-16 alternate, had to be dropped.
> 
> All that said, the PAF leadership seems to agree that an interim 4+ gen fighter is necessary, and that the "leading options" are in China and Russia. Let's see... J-10B/C, Su-35, Su-30SME and MiG-35?



what i am saying is not purely the supply issue but the customization options
the french gave PAF complete independence in procurement its own weapon systems on mirage 5 Rose but this was not the case for F 16s. even today all the weapons including GPS kits are from outside, limiting use for strike missions. PAF should have forseen this and probably not opted for spending 2+ billion dollars 18 new instead went for just upgrading the older ones may be

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

Windjammer said:


> A PAF F-16 engaged in rehearsals for 14th August over it's respective air base, soon same will start over the Capital.
> 
> View attachment 416074



Sir! its jf17 block2, not f16 and picture was taken in kamra, i asked zohaib who taken this photo


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## CHI RULES

MastanKhan said:


> Hi Bilal,
> 
> Thank you for your post---what you are writing is just the tipped of the imcompetence---.
> 
> The Paf is a totally incompetent organization when it comes to procure the right aircraft for the defense of the nation---.
> 
> Its role should be left just to plan for war and be ready to support and fight---procurement should be taken away from it---.
> 
> I guarantee---whatever aircraft is shoved down their throats they will fly it good---.
> 
> The mentality of the Paf generals is like a kid in a candy shop with a quarter in his hands and cannot decide what candy to buy---.
> 
> 
> 
> Syed,
> 
> That guy is a pro---. Paf cannot do it---because it does not have a fall back plan.
> 
> When the idiots in the blue uniform openly state that the F16 is the best and the J10 is not that good---in layman terms you are handing out your ballz to the other party and telling them---you can squeeze them anytime that you want to.



There should be no doubt that as whole package F16 block 52+ appears to be better than J10. Though later versions of J10 have some advantage due to resolution of engine issues and AESA radar.

When PA considered J10 at hat time J10 was evolving no AESA, Chinese based ECCM,ESM, FBW problems and Russian engine with issues.

Even now it's better to go for J11 series version for Naval and Ground deep strike missions. Sane move is to go for Fc31 get it customized as per PAF requirements.

There is not point in cursing PAF leadership alone for past. Past has gone now look for future. The main issue of Pak is political turmoil which has caused various defense deals to be either delayed or terminated.

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Generally speaking, decisions as to whom Pakistan has (or will have) "good relations" with should be left to the government. However, the situation in Pakistan is such that GHQ, AHQ and NHQ are quasi-foreign affairs offices and have taken upon themselves to make decisions that should be left to the Prime Minister or Foreign Minister. I mean, USAF is pretty friendly with the PAF, but I don't think the White House or DoD give a hoot about what USAF thinks.



Sure, let's leave it in the hands of Foreign Minister cum Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, or even better, Hussain Haqqani. They will invite the Americans to kindly take away all the nukes and then force you to shower in Ganga and drink what comes from the wrong end of the cow.

I mean, are you really serious? Did you just write that?



ziaulislam said:


> what i am saying is not purely the supply issue but the customization options
> the french gave PAF complete independence in procurement its own weapon systems on mirage 5 Rose but this was not the case for F 16s. even today all the weapons including GPS kits are from outside, limiting use for strike missions. PAF should have forseen this and probably not opted for spending 2+ billion dollars 18 new instead went for just upgrading the older ones may be



Yes, Mirage 5 is a legacy platform. Some months back there was some guy pitching Mirage 2000s as well. He seemed to have all the answers. Customizations? All allowed. Carrying nuclear missiles? No questions asked. Etc. etc. Except, acquiring a new platform is a project of its own, and investing limited finances into it means PAF will forever stay behind on the technology curve. Try asking the French to release details for Rafale so we integrate our own weapons. They won't even sell you a screw. Everyone tries to lock you down into the 'entire package' because that's where they make all the money. It takes extremely deep relationships such as Inida/Russia, USA/Israel, USA/Japan, USA/S. Korea, and of course China/Pak to customize latest model jets according to one's own specifications.

Consider this: even with the partnership we have with China, adding non-Chinese customizations faced resistance.


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## Taygibay

For those who might not have read it :
http://aviationphotodigest.com/exercise-red-flag-16-4/

It concerns the PAF presence at Red Flag last year.

Good day all, Tay.


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## CriticalThought

Taygibay said:


> For those who might not have known of it :
> 
> http://hdwon.co/video/category/Pakistan-Air-Force-in-Red-Flag-Exercise-2016.html
> 
> You'll get quite a few videos of the Red Flag PAF presence
> and others too if you dig a bit.
> 
> Good day all, Tay.

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## Taygibay

I know mate but thanks; I corrected it while you wrote.



I'll try to get the vids out of there 1 by one if links exists.
Later, Tay.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> Sure, let's leave it in the hands of Foreign Minister cum Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, or even better, Hussain Haqqani. They will invite the Americans to kindly take away all the nukes and then force you to shower in Ganga and drink what comes from the wrong end of the cow.
> 
> I mean, are you really serious? Did you just write that?


I was referring to the role of the institutions in general, not Nawaz Sharif et. al specifically. It's precisely because Pakistan's FO and PMO are bad that the PAF has to engage in diplomacy in order to acquire what it needs. However, had these very institutions been up to mark, then the PAF would have been kept at a distance (along with the Army and Navy) from the U.S. from the onset.

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## Taygibay

First one, more coming here with edits ...


. . .
and actually no, the other vids all link to
that one sadly, part of the deception OFC.

Sorry for the false hopes, Tay.

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## Windjammer

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> Sir! its jf17 block2, not f16 and picture was taken in kamra, i asked zohaib who taken this photo


Yes you are correct, i didn't look closely at the image, it is a JF-17 pulling up over Kamra pumping flares.

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## MastanKhan

CHI RULES said:


> There should be no doubt that as whole package F16 block 52+ appears to be better than J10. Though later versions of J10 have some advantage due to resolution of engine issues and AESA radar.
> 
> When PA considered J10 at hat time J10 was evolving no AESA, Chinese based ECCM,ESM, FBW problems and Russian engine with issues.
> 
> Even now it's better to go for J11 series version for Naval and Ground deep strike missions. Sane move is to go for Fc31 get it customized as per PAF requirements.
> 
> There is not point in cursing PAF leadership alone for past. Past has gone now look for future. The main issue of Pak is political turmoil which has caused various defense deals to be either delayed or terminated.



Hi,

FC31 is about a 15-20 years project for total integration if the production starts now.

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I was referring to the role of the institutions in general, not Nawaz Sharif et. al specifically. It's precisely because Pakistan's FO and PMO are bad that the PAF has to engage in diplomacy in order to acquire what it needs. However, had these very institutions been up to mark, then the PAF would have been kept at a distance (along with the Army and Navy) from the U.S. from the onset.



Sir, one thing that is very wrong with Indian Air Force is the politicians trying to be politicians in military matters. Here is how to do military procurement right: Understand the threat, present and future. Identify solutions that can neutralize the threat. Identify pros/cons for each solution. Pick the best. Use it against the threat in simulated/actual environments as available. Repeat. Politicians have no business doing any of this.

For the general discussion of 'being friendly with nations', I ask you: does the Pentagon control foreign policy or not? It is unrealistic to expect an institution of the calibre of Pak Army/ISI/PAF to not have useful inputs on foreign policy. Foreign affairs is an intricate game of power play, power projection, and power deflection. The Armed Forces are in the best position to advise on these matters. What we need is a solid relationship between civilians and military. Only in unison can this nation succeed.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> Sir, one thing that is very wrong with Indian Air Force is the politicians trying to be politicians in military matters. Here is how to do military procurement right: Understand the threat, present and future. Identify solutions that can neutralize the threat. Identify pros/cons for each solution. Pick the best. Use it against the threat in simulated/actual environments as available. Repeat. Politicians have no business doing any of this.
> 
> For the general discussion of 'being friendly with nations', I ask you: does the Pentagon control foreign policy or not? It is unrealistic to expect an institution of the calibre of Pak Army/ISI/PAF to not have useful inputs on foreign policy. Foreign affairs is an intricate game of power play, power projection, and power deflection. The Armed Forces are in the best position to advise on these matters. What we need is a solid relationship between civilians and military. Only in unison can this nation succeed.


Note: I never spoke about the politicians determining technical requirements, the point was specific to the issue of determining the states that are Pakistan's friends and foes. The PAF might love its F-16s, but if the foreign relations environment is such that the US is using the F-16s as an excuse to vilify Pakistan on the world stage - whilst also appeasing India's interests for the sake of containing China - then sorry, the PAF (and Pakistan as a whole) has no business showing an amenable face to the Americans.

Generally, the ones who have the jurisdiction to make foreign relations decisions are the people's elected representatives. The armed forces can have an input, but a strong and able government has the mandate to make the final decision and execute it in all matters of policy. When that government is weak or ineffective, then yes, dysfunction reigns and we end up with the armed forces (and others) assuming that role, for good or for ill.

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Note: I never spoke about the politicians determining technical requirements, the point was specific to the issue of determining the states that are Pakistan's friends and foes. The PAF might love its F-16s, but if the foreign relations environment is such that the US is using the F-16s as an excuse to vilify Pakistan on the world stage - whilst also appeasing India's interests for the sake of containing China - then sorry, the PAF (and Pakistan as a whole) has no business showing an amenable face to the Americans.



I see this as "damned if you do, and damned if you don't" for the PAF. On this very forum, people lambast the PAF for 'giving away funds in flood relief instead of buying fighter jets'. On the other hand, 'PAF has no business showing an amenable face to the Americans'. What do you really want from them?

On this very forum you find very senior members clearly stating we have no conflicts with the Americans. And yet, PAF maintaining relations is somehow a wrong thing?

I fail to see the logic in using PAF as the whipping boy.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> I see this as "damned if you do, and damned if you don't" for the PAF. On this very forum, people lambast the PAF for 'giving away funds in flood relief instead of buying fighter jets'. On the other hand, 'PAF has no business showing an amenable face to the Americans'. What do you really want from them?
> 
> On this very forum you find very senior members clearly stating we have no conflicts with the Americans. And yet, PAF maintaining relations is somehow a wrong thing?
> 
> I fail to see the logic in using PAF as the whipping boy.


There would be no mutually-damning scenarios if the PAF kept to its role of being a military service arm.

Pakistan's wider dysfunctions, such as a weak government (esp. on the foreign relations side) and the resulting inability (or unwillingness) to fight for Pakistan's interests has resulted in the PAF doing diplomacy work. There's a void and it is trying to plug that gap.

But as you let the armed forces engage in such works, then you might as well also live with ill-informed media outlets, Hussain Haqqanis, Asma Jehangirs, etc, doing the same thing. They're also non-elected entities filling up the diplomacy void left by a weak Pakistani government.

Basically, there is no other point than the obvious: it isn't the PAF's job nor its right to determine who its (and, by extension Pakistan's) friends are... The fact that this is happening isn't an indictment on the PAF in as much as it is an indictment on Pakistan's government. Even if you wanted a pro-U.S. government, why is the ACM going to Washington to convince it of F-16s? Shouldn't this be done by the MoD, FO and an army of experts (incl the PAF but also civil rights activists, locals from FATA, Pakistani as well as neutral Western defence analysts, lobbyists, etc)?

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There would be no mutually-damning scenarios if the PAF kept to its role of being a military service arm.
> 
> Pakistan's wider dysfunctions, such as a weak government (esp. on the foreign relations side) and the resulting inability (or unwillingness) to fight for Pakistan's interests has resulted in the PAF doing diplomacy work. There's a void and it is trying to plug that gap.
> 
> But as you let the armed forces engage in such works, then you might as well also live with ill-informed media outlets, Hussain Haqqanis, Asma Jehangirs, etc, doing the same thing. They're also non-elected entities filling up the diplomacy void left by a weak Pakistani government.
> 
> Basically, there is no other point than the obvious: it isn't the PAF's job nor its right to determine who its (and, by extension Pakistan's) friends are... The fact that this is happening isn't an indictment on the PAF in as much as it is an indictment on Pakistan's government.



If you're talking about the F-16 diplomacy, well it was started by Gen Zia, bumbled by Benazir who wanted wheat instead of F-16s, went out of question after nuclear tests, was brought into fashion by another military dictator, and continued by Zardari. The PAF received this benefit because of diplomacy played by other arms of government/military. Why hold PAF responsible for this?


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## Readerdefence

Taygibay said:


> First one, more coming here with edits ...
> 
> 
> . . .
> and actually no, the other vids all link to
> that one sadly, part of the deception OFC.
> 
> Sorry for the false hopes, Tay.


Hi can these paf pilots multiply their knowledge with the Chinese in the coming exercise with china while flying some other jets as f16 are not allowed to fly out of Pakistan 
Input will be appreciated 
Thx


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## Imran Khan

Readerdefence said:


> Hi can these paf pilots multiply their knowledge with the Chinese in the coming exercise with china while flying some other jets as f16 are not allowed to fly out of Pakistan
> Input will be appreciated
> Thx


please correct yourself f-16s are not allowed to go china , they went UAE JORDAN TURKEY USA Saudi arabia etc

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## Rocky rock



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## Readerdefence

Imran Khan said:


> please correct yourself f-16s are not allowed to go china , they went UAE JORDAN TURKEY USA Saudi arabia etc


Hi sir that's why I already mentioned f16 are not allowed but hopefully pilots can 
Thx



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> FC31 is about a 15-20 years project for total integration if the production starts now.


Hi mastan sb little bit disagreement with your post hope you will enlighten me more with your knowledge as you have mentioned 15-20 years is it not too much as my understanding is whatever system they are using in j20 they can transfer that to fc31 also now if we have apprehension about engine problem I hope Russians are very much ready to keep on supplying there best one as much as china wants to 
Your input please 
Thx


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## Raider 21

Readerdefence said:


> Hi can these paf pilots multiply their knowledge with the Chinese in the coming exercise with china while flying some other jets as f16 are not allowed to fly out of Pakistan
> Input will be appreciated
> Thx


Yes they always do. That is the purpose of these international exercises, to learn from each other. They're not going there to have Chinese food....

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## denel

Syed.Ali.Haider said:


> If only it were that easy. How many _millions _of line of code does an F-16 have, Sir, and in how many different systems that interact with each other?


This is no big issue my friend.


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## MastanKhan

Readerdefence said:


> Hi sir that's why I already mentioned f16 are not allowed but hopefully pilots can
> Thx
> 
> 
> Hi mastan sb little bit disagreement with your post hope you will enlighten me more with your knowledge as you have mentioned 15-20 years is it not too much as my understanding is whatever system they are using in j20 they can transfer that to fc31 also now if we have apprehension about engine problem I hope Russians are very much ready to keep on supplying there best one as much as china wants to
> Your input please
> Thx



Hi,

Just look at the integration time frame of the F22 and the F35. There is no short cut to the time it takes for integration.

A simple little aircraft is almost in the 12 th year of i ts integration and still it has years to go---.

The 5th gen is a totally different beast---you have to learn---UN-LEARN and act and fly differently to fly---engage and disengage---.

What was it the change from Windows7 to Windows 8 that the world was crying for years---just look at that how long it took to make that change---.

The difference between a 5th gen and a 4th gen aircraft is of astronomical proportions.

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## VCheng

denel said:


> This is no big issue my friend.



Then why has it not been done? It would make eminent sense to have control over the software, if at all possible.

(But if it has been done and not made public, then it remains a claim, albeit impressive.)


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## Taygibay

Readerdefence said:


> Hi can these paf pilots multiply their knowledge with the Chinese in the coming exercise with china while flying some other jets as f16 are not allowed to fly out of Pakistan
> Input will be appreciated
> Thx



I see what you mean. Yes, they can if they're already familiar with
a reference jet.

Say a PAF Viper pilot transitioned to the Thunder since it arrived.
So a pilot that got his squadron assignment to an F_16 in 2010
could have switched in 2014-15 to a Thunder equipped squadron.

That guy knows their differences and maybe had 1 on 1 DACT?
When he faces J-10Bs / J-11s or better yet Su-30MKK ( that are
most alike the south-eastern neighbours' MKIs ), he'll be able to
_translate_ the knowledge gained to what using a Viper would be like
and what tactics it would then require.

I hope it's clear enough; don't hesitate to ask for precisions and
have a great day, Tay.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> If you're talking about the F-16 diplomacy, well it was started by Gen Zia, bumbled by Benazir who wanted wheat instead of F-16s, went out of question after nuclear tests, was brought into fashion by another military dictator, and continued by Zardari. The PAF received this benefit because of diplomacy played by other arms of government/military. Why hold PAF responsible for this?


I was specifically referring to the 8 F-16s they tried getting under FMF. The case for them was driven by the PAF via visits to USAF leadership and broad appeals of them being key for COIN. If this was the strategy (COIN), then this should have been the job of an FO-led effort that can involve the PAF, but others as well.

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I was specifically referring to the 8 F-16s they tried getting under FMF. The case for them was driven by the PAF via visits to USAF leadership and broad appeals of them being key for COIN. If this was the strategy (COIN), then this should have been the job of an FO-led effort that can involve the PAF, but others as well.



Makes sense. I agree.

The US is picking on us these days because it serves its vested interests to demand that biggest scam of all: democracy. We need to keep up the masquerade of sham democracy for argument's sake. They are not fooled by it, but it puts them in a bind.


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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I was specifically referring to the 8 F-16s they tried getting under FMF. The case for them was driven by the PAF via visits to USAF leadership and broad appeals of them being key for COIN. If this was the strategy (COIN), then this should have been the job of an FO-led effort that can involve the PAF, but others as well.


why didnt PAF pushed for used f-16 under EDA just like what Indonesian got.
its a win win for every one no USA tax payer money, they got 24+8 fighters C/Ds refurbished for 4000 hours to block 52 standard just for 750M plus training and spares

*I think the push was more from LM than PAF atleast thats how an outside person would see it,* seeing that their production line is closing and this would have given them 1 more year to figure out the current deals under negotiation in Gulf region and possible south america and southeast asia

seeing that PAF cant get used f-16 despite it inital willingness to accept some(from jordan for example) mean that we cant get them which again is failure PAF/Pakistan policy and makes one wonder whether the availability of new ones is due to push/lobbying from LM or PAF

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> Makes sense. I agree.
> 
> The US is picking on us these days because it serves its vested interests to demand that biggest scam of all: democracy. We need to keep up the masquerade of sham democracy for argument's sake. They are not fooled by it, but it puts them in a bind.


If there's a strong Pak Govt to stand up to the US on any issue, the PAF will be there to support it (as it has in the Pressler days).

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## cloud4000

CriticalThought said:


> Makes sense. I agree.
> 
> The US is picking on us these days because it serves its vested interests to demand that biggest scam of all: democracy. We need to keep up the masquerade of sham democracy for argument's sake. They are not fooled by it, but it puts them in a bind.



US doesn't care if Pakistan is a democracy or not. History has shown this to be true. US had their best relations when Pakistan was run by military dictators. All that matters is that US interests are being served.



ziaulislam said:


> why didnt PAF pushed for used f-16 under EDA just like what Indonesian got.
> its a win win for every one no USA tax payer money, they got 24+8 fighters C/Ds refurbished for 4000 hours to block 52 standard just for 750M plus training and spares
> 
> *I think the push was more from LM than PAF atleast thats how an outside person would see it,* seeing that their production line is closing and this would have given them 1 more year to figure out the current deals under negotiation in Gulf region and possible south america and southeast asia
> 
> seeing that PAF cant get used f-16 despite it inital willingness to accept some(from jordan for example) mean that we cant get them which again is failure PAF/Pakistan policy and makes one wonder whether the availability of new ones is due to push/lobbying from LM or PAF



LM is ready to sell Pakistan previously agreed upon 8 F-16 Block 52s, but is Pakistan ready to pay for them? If so, Trump Administration will be glad to sell them given his mantra for increasing manufacturing jobs in US.

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## ziaulislam

cloud4000 said:


> US doesn't care if Pakistan is a democracy or not. History has shown this to be true. US had their best relations when Pakistan was run by military dictators. All that matters is that US interests are being served.
> 
> 
> 
> LM is ready to sell Pakistan previously agreed upon 8 F-16 Block 52s, but is Pakistan ready to pay for them? If so, Trump Administration will be glad to sell them given his mantra for increasing manufacturing jobs in US.


getting new f-16 is not cost effective because the price at which they offer the capabilities can be duplicated at fraction of cost with jf-17, however, used f-16s or subsidized(unlikely has not happened in 30 years why now?) is different case. 

it makes no sense to pay 100M dollars for f-16 when it comes with so many restrictions and little offset clause or independence in integrating home made arsenal

this is not early 2000s when there was no thunder/jf-17 and other options were deemed expensive as any other platform brings in complexity and training cost

it seems PAF would rather buy 100M 5th gen fighter from china (the expected price of f-35 when its in full production swing) rather the f-16s

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## CriticalThought

ziaulislam said:


> getting new f-16 is not cost effective because the price at which they offer the capabilities can be duplicated at fraction of cost with jf-17, however, used f-16s or subsidized(unlikely has not happened in 30 years why now?) is different case.
> 
> it makes no sense to pay 100M dollars for f-16 when it comes with so many restrictions and little offset clause or independence in integrating home made arsenal
> 
> this is not early 2000s when there was no thunder/jf-17 and other options were deemed expensive as any other platform brings in complexity and training cost
> 
> it seems PAF would rather buy 100M 5th gen fighter from china (the expected price of f-35 when its in full production swing) rather the f-16s



You know, I wouldn't say no to, let's say 4 latest model F-16s. I mean, to the specs of Block 70/72. Restrictions and all. Seriously.


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## ziaulislam

CriticalThought said:


> You know, I wouldn't say no to, let's say 4 latest model F-16s. I mean, to the specs of Block 70/72. Restrictions and all. Seriously.


usually when you pay so much in excess of 2-3 billion dollars you get something in return(india has 40% ofset clause), but in case of f-16 you dont even the ability integrate your strike weapon package, you have to buy everything from USA. This isnt like what we got with mirage 5 ROSE deal or what turkey or Israel got with their f-16s

for example you got the f-16 C/D with helmet mounted display but no fitfh gen Aim9x was provided

also i am not sure whether the block 70 is available, certainly not till india deal is active


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## CriticalThought

ziaulislam said:


> usually when you pay so much in excess of 2-3 billion dollars you get something in return(india has 40% ofset clause), but in case of f-16 you dont even the ability integrate your strike weapon package, you have to buy everything from USA. This isnt like what we got with mirage 5 ROSE deal or what turkey or Israel got with their f-16s
> 
> for example you got the f-16 C/D with helmet mounted display but no fitfh gen Aim9x was provided
> 
> also i am not sure whether the block 70 is available, certainly not till india deal is active



If we could get them, they would be very, very useful.


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## ziaulislam

CriticalThought said:


> If we could get them, they would be very, very useful.


*would the f-16 block 60 be very very useful at 100 million dollars without freedom of integration of home weapons and without aim 120C newer versions or Aim 120D and aim 9X.*

i think we have better luck with thunders

unless of course if USA provides freedom to integrate our own strike package than yes


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## CriticalThought

ziaulislam said:


> *would the f-16 block 60 be very very useful at 100 million dollars without freedom of integration of home weapons and without aim 120C newer versions or Aim 120D and aim 9X.*
> 
> i think we have better luck with thunders
> 
> unless of course if USA provides freedom to integrate our own strike package than yes



They would be very, very useful with all these restrictions.


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## ziaulislam

CriticalThought said:


> They would be very, very useful with all these restrictions.


lucky for us, PAF thinks otherwise, the very reason why they backed up from the deal


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## CriticalThought

ziaulislam said:


> lucky for us, PAF thinks otherwise, the very reason why they backed up from the deal



They backed away from block 50/52 I am talking 70/72 IF we can get our hands on them. 4 should be more than enough.


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## fatman17

CriticalThought said:


> They backed away from block 50/52 I am talking 70/72 IF we can get our hands on them. 4 should be more than enough.


Here is the US criteria. 
Go after HQN and get whatever toys you want. now the Q is will we.


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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> Here is the US criteria.
> Go after HQN and get whatever toys you want. now the Q is will we.



We should come back with a sweeter deal: peace in Afghanistan. Do they want it? If so, allow Pakistan to slowly and systematically absorb Pashtun majority areas adjacent to it. Support us in achieving this aim. It's s win win for everyone.


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## fatman17

CriticalThought said:


> We should come back with a sweeter deal: peace in Afghanistan. Do they want it? If so, allow Pakistan to slowly and systematically absorb Pashtun majority areas adjacent to it. Support us in achieving this aim. It's s win win for everyone.


Mushkil, long term idea.

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## C130

ziaulislam said:


> getting new f-16 is not cost effective because the price at which they offer the capabilities can be duplicated at fraction of cost with jf-17, however, used f-16s or subsidized(unlikely has not happened in 30 years why now?) is different case.
> 
> it makes no sense to pay 100M dollars for f-16 when it comes with so many restrictions and little offset clause or independence in integrating home made arsenal
> 
> this is not early 2000s when there was no thunder/jf-17 and other options were deemed expensive as any other platform brings in complexity and training cost
> 
> it seems PAF would rather buy 100M 5th gen fighter from china (the expected price of f-35 when its in full production swing) rather the f-16s




why doesn't Pakistan just buy a few dozen Mig-35? which equals or even exceeds performance of the F-16 blk 52


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## CriticalThought

fatman17 said:


> Mushkil, long term idea.



Afghanistan didn't get to this state in a day. What makes them think there is a magic wand they can wave to make the problems go away? They need to realize they need us as their partners and allies in the long term.


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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> Here is the US criteria.
> Go after HQN and get whatever toys you want. now the Q is will we.


i for one believe that all non state actor rule should end, if economical development is our goal.
govt and army has to be sincere in this objective


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## MastanKhan

C130 said:


> why doesn't Pakistan just buy a few dozen Mig-35? which equals or even exceeds performance of the F-16 blk 52



Hi,

Because the F16 mafia rules the roost in the Paf---. The F16 offers retirement jobs form them in the U S and green cards---what will the MIG35 or the J10 offer for them----?

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## C130

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Because the F16 mafia rules the roost in the Paf---. The F16 offers retirement jobs form them in the U S and green cards---what will the MIG35 or the J10 offer for them----?



who is this F-16 mafia? and who has gotten green cards so far?

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## Incog_nito

Is PAF negotiating to acquire the remaining F-16s from JAF?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Jordanian_Air_Force#Current_inventory


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## CriticalThought

ziaulislam said:


> i for one believe that all non state actor rule should end, if economical development is our goal.
> govt and army has to be sincere in this objective



I don't know why this HQN terminology persists, but I think it's because it's convenient for the Yanks to apportion blame to one entity. The truth is, after the execution of their leader in Baluchistan, the Taliban is a fragmented force.

Furthermore, this image of a well trained HQN with training camps organized in Pakistan is a ghost that plagues their febrile minds. The fact of the matter is, they have been unwittingly supplying world class training and weapons to them via the folly that is Afghan Army. The recent video of Taliban special forces showing American special forces weapons is proof of this.

The HQN delusion was clearly revealed by the recent allegations that Iran is causing chaos on Afghanistan and surfacing of a video showing Russians are supplying them weapons. The whole world seems to be out to get them in Afghanistan.

The only way to end this circus is to allow us to deal with it. Make no mistakes we are doing them a huge favor. We will be putting lives of thousands of soldiers at risk and suffer much terrorism in the country. But we sincerely believe the only way to have a safe and stable Pakistan is to first have a safe and stable Afghanistan. And we are willing to work towards that.


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## Incog_nito

If yes, then what JAF will going to do with it's AF? Are they planning to acquire JF-17s Block-IIs along with JF-17 dual seat and later JF-17 Block-IIIs?


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## araz

Oxair Online said:


> If yes, then what JAF will going to do with it's AF? Are they planning to acquire JF-17s Block-IIs along with JF-17 dual seat and later JF-17 Block-IIIs?


They are getting more F16s from uncle Sam.
A

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If there's a strong Pak Govt to stand up to the US on any issue, the PAF will be there to support it (as it has in the Pressler days).


This is the issue with the overall arching politics - complete fracture and corruption, no vision for overall country in terms of education, health, infrastructure and money grab - similar situation to my country. Until that does not change, our countries will be relegated to the backwaters.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There would be no mutually-damning scenarios if the PAF kept to its role of being a military service arm.
> 
> Pakistan's wider dysfunctions, such as a weak government (esp. on the foreign relations side) and the resulting inability (or unwillingness) to fight for Pakistan's interests has resulted in the PAF doing diplomacy work. There's a void and it is trying to plug that gap.
> 
> But as you let the armed forces engage in such works, then you might as well also live with ill-informed media outlets, Hussain Haqqanis, Asma Jehangirs, etc, doing the same thing. They're also non-elected entities filling up the diplomacy void left by a weak Pakistani government.
> 
> Basically, there is no other point than the obvious: it isn't the PAF's job nor its right to determine who its (and, by extension Pakistan's) friends are... The fact that this is happening isn't an indictment on the PAF in as much as it is an indictment on Pakistan's government. Even if you wanted a pro-U.S. government, why is the ACM going to Washington to convince it of F-16s? Shouldn't this be done by the MoD, FO and an army of experts (incl the PAF but also civil rights activists, locals from FATA, Pakistani as well as neutral Western defence analysts, lobbyists, etc)?


on the point!. the embassy staff are busy with their own affairs.
if you come here to Pretoria, just go to the consulate of Pakistan. Completely disfunctional, if you try to call them, they never return a call and with 3 hrs work window, i am told on very good authority all of their staff are busy with side line business deals importing stuff and selling them to local small businesses. then one wonders why so much could have been had from Armscor if they had professional attaches. If that is not it, those who come as defence attaches land up on scholarships to study at Wits University to get the additional stipends. Hence the question, who is doing their work. No one.
I had wanted to visit your country a few years back but after going to your country's embassy, threw the application in their trashbin. They could give me a time come back after 2 days; go there, it is still in front of the official, went there 3 time and finally tried to see the first secretary; always in meetings. Turns out he is never there; he has involved with side line businesses.
So what can you expect from the Washington staff. My 2 cents of my observation here.

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## ziaulislam

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Because the F16 mafia rules the roost in the Paf---. The F16 offers retirement jobs form them in the U S and green cards---what will the MIG35 or the J10 offer for them----?


unfortuntely even the f-16 mafia has not been able to do a top notch job when it comes to procurement 



CriticalThought said:


> I don't know why this HQN terminology persists, but I think it's because it's convenient for the Yanks to apportion blame to one entity. The truth is, after the execution of their leader in Baluchistan, the Taliban is a fragmented force.
> 
> Furthermore, this image of a well trained HQN with training camps organized in Pakistan is a ghost that plagues their febrile minds. The fact of the matter is, they have been unwittingly supplying world class training and weapons to them via the folly that is Afghan Army. The recent video of Taliban special forces showing American special forces weapons is proof of this.
> 
> The HQN delusion was clearly revealed by the recent allegations that Iran is causing chaos on Afghanistan and surfacing of a video showing Russians are supplying them weapons. The whole world seems to be out to get them in Afghanistan.
> 
> The only way to end this circus is to allow us to deal with it. Make no mistakes we are doing them a huge favor. We will be putting lives of thousands of soldiers at risk and suffer much terrorism in the country. But we sincerely believe the only way to have a safe and stable Pakistan is to first have a safe and stable Afghanistan. And we are willing to work towards that.


1. our counter narrative is very weak
2. i believe that issue can be explained in one word, which was the problem in Vietnam as well "opium trade"

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## Incog_nito

araz said:


> They are getting more F16s from uncle Sam.
> A


Really, which type of F-16s and how many of them? Who's paying the money?


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## Thorough Pro

"They" here means Jordanian Air Force.


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## Readerdefence

Taygibay said:


> I see what you mean. Yes, they can if they're already familiar with
> a reference jet.
> 
> Say a PAF Viper pilot transitioned to the Thunder since it arrived.
> So a pilot that got his squadron assignment to an F_16 in 2010
> could have switched in 2014-15 to a Thunder equipped squadron.
> 
> That guy knows their differences and maybe had 1 on 1 DACT?
> When he faces J-10Bs / J-11s or better yet Su-30MKK ( that are
> most alike the south-eastern neighbours' MKIs ), he'll be able to
> _translate_ the knowledge gained to what using a Viper would be like
> and what tactics it would then require.
> 
> I hope it's clear enough; don't hesitate to ask for precisions and
> have a great day, Tay.


Hi thx for your detailed & knowledgeable reply



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just look at the integration time frame of the F22 and the F35. There is no short cut to the time it takes for integration.
> 
> A simple little aircraft is almost in the 12 th year of i ts integration and still it has years to go---.
> 
> The 5th gen is a totally different beast---you have to learn---UN-LEARN and act and fly differently to fly---engage and disengage---.
> 
> What was it the change from Windows7 to Windows 8 that the world was crying for years---just look at that how long it took to make that change---.
> 
> The difference between a 5th gen and a 4th gen aircraft is of astronomical proportions.


Hi mastan sb thx for your reply



Knuckles said:


> Yes they always do. That is the purpose of these international exercises, to learn from each other. They're not going there to have Chinese food....


Hi hopefully the will have some Chinese food also 
Thx for your reply

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## cloud4000

CriticalThought said:


> We should come back with a sweeter deal: peace in Afghanistan. Do they want it? If so, allow Pakistan to slowly and systematically absorb Pashtun majority areas adjacent to it. Support us in achieving this aim. It's s win win for everyone.



US is looking for an exit strategy from Afghanistan. It's not looking to prolong its stay there forever. The Afghans are a hopeless mess incapable of doing anything except line their pockets. 

US main concern in the region is containing China and Pakistan can't help in this regard. CPEC confirms this.

It would be better if regional players take over and make something happen in Afghanistan. In essence, Pakistan and US should go there separate ways on Afghanistan.


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## CriticalThought

cloud4000 said:


> US is looking for an exit strategy from Afghanistan. It's not looking to prolong its stay there forever. The Afghans are a hopeless mess incapable of doing anything except line their pockets.
> 
> US main concern in the region is containing China and Pakistan can't help in this regard. CPEC confirms this.
> 
> It would be better if regional players take over and make something happen in Afghanistan. In essence, Pakistan and US should go there separate ways on Afghanistan.



You might want to exit, but if you exit now you lose a geo-strategic advantage. You wanted to replicate Iraq: a compliant government that lets you exploit resources at cheap rates. This failed because you hobnobbed with sore losers: the Afghan government. You wanted a convenient launching pad against Russia and China. A complete withdrawal will negate that. Finally, a resurgence of Al-Qaida after American withdrawal would be even worse for Trump than not exiting. If you think about it, all your problems boil down to incompetent partners in Afghanistan. Pakistan can help you here. One big grumbling of Pashtuns is the matter of Durand Line. If we slowly absorb Pashtun areas and introduce good governance, the result would be an absolute success story. Pashtuns will be happy because they can move about freely in their own areas without restrictions. The prevalent lawlessness will go away as well. It is something you can boast to the rest of the world. We need resources from you guys for this. You should think deeply about this before walking away. Up till now, the Pak-America partnership has been riddled with conflict of interest. Here, we will absolutely share a joint vision and a win win situation.


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## cloud4000

CriticalThought said:


> You might want to exit, but if you exit now you lose a geo-strategic advantage. You wanted to replicate Iraq: a compliant government that lets you exploit resources at cheap rates. This failed because you hobnobbed with sore losers: the Afghan government. You wanted a convenient launching pad against Russia and China. A complete withdrawal will negate that. Finally, a resurgence of Al-Qaida after American withdrawal would be even worse for Trump than not exiting. If you think about it, all your problems boil down to incompetent partners in Afghanistan. Pakistan can help you here. One big grumbling of Pashtuns is the matter of Durand Line. If we slowly absorb Pashtun areas and introduce good governance, the result would be an absolute success story. Pashtuns will be happy because they can move about freely in their own areas without restrictions. The prevalent lawlessness will go away as well. It is something you can boast to the rest of the world. We need resources from you guys for this. You should think deeply about this before walking away. Up till now, the Pak-America partnership has been riddled with conflict of interest. Here, we will absolutely share a joint vision and a win win situation.



It's a little bit late in the game for any Pak-American partnership on Afghanistan. US has been asking Pakistan to launch a ZarbeAzb like operations for a long time, but it was only launched in 2014, well after the drawdown of US troops started. It would require a troop surge and Trump is not eager to waste any more money there.

As for influencing China and Russia via Afghanistan is a lost cause. There are other ways to counter them. 

Nevertheless, I don't want to stray off topic here. Regarding the acquisitions of F-16s. If Pakistan wants new birds, it will get only Block 52s that they currently have, designated specifically for COIN ops. Means no AESA or latest AtoA missiles; and Pakistan will have to pay for them. It can go for used F-16s with upgrades route too. 

But growing India-US defence relations could be a roadblock to even this path.


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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> usually when you pay so much in excess of 2-3 billion dollars you get something in return(india has 40% ofset clause), but in case of f-16 you dont even the ability integrate your strike weapon package, you have to buy everything from USA. This isnt like what we got with mirage 5 ROSE deal or what turkey or Israel got with their f-16s
> 
> for example you got the f-16 C/D with helmet mounted display but no fitfh gen Aim9x was provided
> 
> also i am not sure whether the block 70 is available, certainly not till india deal is active



Hi,

The reason India gets the 40% is not just like that. It already has similar tiered aircraft of different makes in inventory---SU30--M2K---Mig29

If Paf had M2K's or J10's in inventory---the story would be different---.

You simply cannot dictate terms from a position of integral weakness.

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## ziaulislam

cloud4000 said:


> It's a little bit late in the game for any Pak-American partnership on Afghanistan. US has been asking Pakistan to launch a ZarbeAzb like operations for a long time, but it was only launched in 2014, well after the drawdown of US troops started. It would require a troop surge and Trump is not eager to waste any more money there.
> 
> As for influencing China and Russia via Afghanistan is a lost cause. There are other ways to counter them.
> 
> Nevertheless, I don't want to stray off topic here. Regarding the acquisitions of F-16s. If Pakistan wants new birds, it will get only Block 52s that they currently have, designated specifically for COIN ops. Means no AESA or latest AtoA missiles; and Pakistan will have to pay for them. It can go for used F-16s with upgrades route too.
> 
> But growing India-US defence relations could be a roadblock to even this path.



i think once india decides on gripen, USA will offer new f-16 block 60/70 as well but not used ones
if Pakistan get b60/70 than for sure the LM choice are non left for india

i pretty much think f-16 era has ended, pakistan also doesnt seem to be interested spending big on fourth gen fighters especially when it has its own "gripen" the thunder, this is clearly hinted in recent interview with PAF chief who mentions that JF-17 will be taken to peak of fourth gen fighters, in long run just like sweden was able to bring down its operating cost alot with gripen, we will be able to replicate it with thunder in numbers

used f-16 PAF will take but i doubt LM wants that till its hoping to get new orders from pakistan


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## EpiiC

F-16 Is obsolete....... F-35 is the new champion of the sky....


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## umair86pk

EpiiC said:


> F-16 Is obsolete....... F-35 is the new champion of the sky....


That why USAF is keep them operational for atleast 2048.

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## airmarshal

Windjammer said:


> *A rare close up of a PAF Viper tanking with USAF KC-135 during Red Flag.
> 
> 
> View attachment 414042
> *



When were the stiffening plates attached to PAF F-16s? Its those bulging pieces that are at the wing roots. Was it part of the MLU?


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## EpiiC

umair86pk said:


> That why USAF is keep them operational for atleast 2048.


F-35 is the replacement for F-16....


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## Talon

umair86pk said:


> That why USAF is keep them operational for atleast 2048.


Savage..


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## Taygibay

ziaulislam said:


> i pretty much think f-16 era has ended, pakistan also doesnt seem to be interested spending big on fourth gen fighters especially when it has its own "gripen" the thunder, this is clearly hinted in recent interview with PAF chief who mentions that JF-17 will be taken to peak of fourth gen fighters, in long run just like sweden was able to bring down its operating cost alot with gripen, we will be able to replicate it with thunder in numbers



Very decent overview mate! With maybe a caveat thrown
in that if a correctly priced offer for F-16s, even for parts,
came around, it would make sense to get these so that it
would sound reasonable.

I mean for example at both end of the spectrum : -a very
unlikely "gift" financed in part by the USA for new planes
and -getting older frames to pick for maintenance in the
very long lead to a program à la ROSE Pakistan excels at.

Those fit the available means? Meanwhile, you have the
Thunder and the ongoing learning / creating cycle of its
cooperative frame. That's where the money should flow
for now ( after operational needs OFC ) unless a newer
cooperation arises with long term gains.

As I've expressed before, taking into account its size, its
means ( $ ) and the threat matrix, Pakistan should play
the air denial with missile batteries over the glacis which
waves of enemy fighters will roll unto with the PAF "only"
swatting down stragglers. Unless the idea is to start a war?

And since the F-16s and Thunder can do that and will
get better at it for the second with a knowledge profit
for the nation's engineers, it might make sense to find
a nice COIN bird to replace at least some of the Mirage
and Chengdu. That will save a lot on operations from
which part may go to equip the BoGs and the rest be
saved for the next acquisition of a new type of fighter.
Hopefully, the economy will have grown by then and it
will allow for a no compromise choice?

I expect Thunder numbers to go up personally. ( Past 150 )

Good day to you, Tay.

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## ziaulislam

Taygibay said:


> Very decent overview mate! With maybe a caveat thrown
> in that if a correctly priced offer for F-16s, even for parts,
> came around, it would make sense to get these so that it
> would sound reasonable.
> 
> I mean for example at both end of the spectrum : -a very
> unlikely "gift" financed in part by the USA for new planes
> and -getting older frames to pick for maintenance in the
> very long lead to a program à la ROSE Pakistan excels at.
> 
> Those fit the available means? Meanwhile, you have the
> Thunder and the ongoing learning / creating cycle of its
> cooperative frame. That's where the money should flow
> for now ( after operational needs OFC ) unless a newer
> cooperation arises with long term gains.
> 
> As I've expressed before, taking into account its size, its
> means ( $ ) and the threat matrix, Pakistan should play
> the air denial with missile batteries over the glacis which
> waves of enemy fighters will roll unto with the PAF "only"
> swatting down stragglers. Unless the idea is to start a war?
> 
> And since the F-16s and Thunder can do that and will
> get better at it for the second with a knowledge profit
> for the nation's engineers, it might make sense to find
> a nice COIN bird to replace at least some of the Mirage
> and Chengdu. That will save a lot on operations from
> which part may go to equip the BoGs and the rest be
> saved for the next acquisition of a new type of fighter.
> Hopefully, the economy will have grown by then and it
> will allow for a no compromise choice?
> 
> I expect Thunder numbers to go up personally. ( Past 150 )
> 
> Good day to you, Tay.


Pakistan would jump at used deal like what Indonesia got 24 c/d~ 750 with training and 8 spares to block 52 standard(meaning for PAF a similar deal would be even cheaper nearing the price of thunder). ROSE deal brought local manufacturing of avionics and radars under licence with independence of integrating home built weapons.
i doubt USA will offer anything below 100 million or will offer ToT with avionics or anything like it did with turkey or other patner nations and thus f-16 era has ended for PAF

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## Raider 21

ziaulislam said:


> Pakistan would jump at used deal like what Indonesia got 24 c/d~ 750 with training and 8 spares to block 52 standard(meaning for PAF a similar deal would be even cheaper nearing the price of thunder). ROSE deal brought local manufacturing of avionics and radars under licence with independence of integrating home built weapons.
> i doubt USA will offer anything below 100 million or will offer ToT with avionics or anything like it did with turkey or other patner nations and thus f-16 era has ended for PAF


If that's possible again...then Venezuela should've retired their F-16s as well and they're still doing fine...


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## CriticalThought

ziaulislam said:


> Pakistan would jump at used deal like what Indonesia got 24 c/d~ 750 with training and 8 spares to block 52 standard(meaning for PAF a similar deal would be even cheaper nearing the price of thunder). ROSE deal brought local manufacturing of avionics and radars under licence with independence of integrating home built weapons.
> i doubt USA will offer anything below 100 million or will offer ToT with avionics or anything like it did with turkey or other patner nations and thus f-16 era has ended for PAF



My sole interest in a handful of very latest model F-16, or indeed any latest model jets, is for PAF to have hands on experience with what is out there. It is good to have exercises with friendly nations, but having the aircraft within the country that you own yourself gives many learning opportunities which are otherwise unavailable.

Uptil now, one big driver of quality in PAF is the experience they have had with latest technology due to the F-16s. There is no substitute for it.


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## EpiiC

umair86pk said:


> That why USAF is keep them operational for atleast 2048.





Hodor said:


> Savage..



The F-16 had been scheduled to remain in service with the U.S. Air Force until 2025.[102] Its replacement was planned to be the F-35A variant of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, which is expected gradually begin replacing several multi-role aircraft among the program's member nations. However, due to delays in the F-35 program, all USAF F-16s will receive service life extension upgrades..... F-35 is the replacement for f-16 due to delays it's service life has been extended.


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## khanasifm

Original design per paf history book jf-17 will be 70% is paf requirements i.e. 70% fleet will be jf , with total 18/19 fighter sqn not counting no 1 fcu, it is about 13 sqn so 13x about 20 per sqn (16-18 plus 2-4 attrition replacement over life time) or 260 jf needed remaining will be f16 or 2 sqn of new type plus 4 existing f16 sqn

Guessing

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## Chak Bamu

khanasifm said:


> Original design per paf history book jf-17 will be 70% is paf requirements i.e. 70% fleet will be jf , with total 18/19 fighter sqn not counting no 1 fcu, it is about 13 sqn so 13x about 20 per sqn (16-18 plus 2-4 attrition replacement over life time) or 260 jf needed remaining will be f16 or 2 sqn of new type plus 4 existing f16 sqn
> 
> Guessing



Good guess. If JF-17 Block-3 is anything like what most here expect, then it should be produced in numbers as the most numerous type. It should out-number Block-2 at least. If there has to be an air war, I would much rather our enemy face Block-3 instead of Block-2.

F-16 is an old story now. There is nothing in it for Pakistan unless US Admin changes its course. Unless we get good second-hand units, investing in F-16 make little sense.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Chak Bamu said:


> Good guess. If JF-17 Block-3 is anything like what most here expect, then it should be produced in numbers as the most numerous type. It should out-number Block-2 at least. If there has to be an air war, I would much rather our enemy face Block-3 instead of Block-2.
> 
> F-16 is an old story now. There is nothing in it for Pakistan unless US Admin changes its course. Unless we get good second-hand units, investing in F-16 make little sense.


IIRC AM (R) Shahid Lateef saying on TV once that the JF-17s will be produced in Blocks. So if there are to be 150-200 or even 200-250 slots, then that might mean we'll see Block-IV and Block-V variants. In all likelihood it'd make sense to base those from the Block-III, but iterative improvements, e.g. EW/ECM, avionics or even radar might be seen down the line.

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## Franek Grabowski

The future of F-35 is still disputed in the US, with several concerns raised. This is big business and big money, and there is much pressure to stop F-16 production in favour of F-35, but it may all change with the new administration. There is still some potential in F-16, and it may well serve until the arrival of unmanned aircraft.


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## ziaulislam

Franek Grabowski said:


> The future of F-35 is still disputed in the US, with several concerns raised. This is big business and big money, and there is much pressure to stop F-16 production in favour of F-35, but it may all change with the new administration. There is still some potential in F-16, and it may well serve until the arrival of unmanned aircraft.


Looks like older f15 will go and some around 500 f16 will go through SLEP to keep them flying till 2050


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## Incog_nito

Is PAF planning to acquire additional Jordanian F-16s and if yes then how long will it take to arrive in Pakistan?


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## Taygibay

*^^^*​Jordan has no airplanes to sell, my good man!
They've added to their 30 new buys lately ( +-10y )
by getting used Nederlandse & Belgian aircrafts.

All are A/B, less than 80 total with some older
ones getting MLU and cell life extension by TAI.
They lost one earlier this year over Yemen too so ...
Comparing with what Pakistan required from the
US the last time makes it seem weird.

I know of the supposed sale but Jordan cannot
replace any sold unit with a new build, too costly!
I believe older frames for PAF or for parts will have
to come from elsewhere.

Have a great day, Tay.


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## fatman17

Taygibay said:


> *^^^*​Jordan has no airplanes to sell, my good man!
> They've added to their 30 new buys lately ( +-10y )
> by getting used Nederlandse & Belgian aircrafts.
> 
> All are A/B, less than 80 total with some older
> ones getting MLU and cell life extension by TAI.
> They lost one earlier this year over Yemen too so ...
> Comparing with what Pakistan required from the
> US the last time makes it seem weird.
> 
> I know of the supposed sale but Jordan cannot
> replace any sold unit with a new build, too costly!
> I believe older frames for PAF or for parts will have
> to come from elsewhere.
> 
> Have a great day, Tay.


They have 16 ac to sell but have raised their asking price. that's why there is a stalemate.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

fatman17 said:


> They have 16 ac to sell but have raised their asking price. that's why there is a stalemate.


Might not be Jordan. These F-16s require U.S. approval for transfer. Washington could be the problem.

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## Taygibay

*^^^*​Quwa has the right handle on that one, IMHoO!
Yes, fatman mate, the high price is to allow replacement
with new/er aircrafts. It came up after the US Congress
balked at what looked like a three-way exchange, a little
like the previous buy of 2014, last year.

The only way for Amman to free F-16s for PAF would be
if they bought additional ones or if they bought the F-35.

Here's an eye on the market :
http://www.defenseone.com/business/2017/06/european-allies-want-used-f-16-fighter-jet/138812/

Romania is getting used F-16s easily because it's NATO
but also because offloading used F-16s clears a financial
path for vendors to upgrade to the more expensive F-35.

But hey, less F-16s = more Thunders and maybe another
plane sooner than later.

 Tay.

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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> They have 16 ac to sell but have raised their asking price. that's why there is a stalemate.



What is the source of ur info? Just curious


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## khanasifm

Jordanian in pak asking do you want the f-16 or not bring your check book


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## fatman17

khanasifm said:


> What is the source of ur info? Just curious


If I told you, then I would have to kill you [emoji12]

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Might not be Jordan. These F-16s require U.S. approval for transfer. Washington could be the problem.



What if Pakistan receives the F-16s from Turkey? As you know, many pilots were laid off after last year's coup and many squadrons have lost pilots creating a pilot shortage situation. Due to Pakistan's excellent relationship with Turkey and due to deep customization of Turkish F-16 with standoff weapons like SOM, shouldn't this route be a top priority for PAF? Turkey has more than 240+ F-16s and I am pretty sure they won't mind selling 30 F-16s or so to Pakistan. As a NATO ally, the Turks can lobby on Pakistan's behalf to get the F-16s released.

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## Imran Khan

no need more used f-16 we need only parts sources


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## Chak Bamu

Imran Khan said:


> no need more used f-16 we need only parts sources


Getting a few more would not hurt. How many JF-17 can we manage to induct in next 2 years? There is a problem and it needs to be addressed. Quickest solution is purchase of a dozen or so F-16 aircrafts.

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## Imran Khan

Chak Bamu said:


> Getting a few more would not hurt. How many JF-17 can we manage to induct in next 2 years? There is a problem and it needs to be addressed. Quickest solution is purchase of a dozen or so F-16 aircrafts.


30 brand new thunders in next two years will be great number sir . we need to move ahead from f-16s now

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## ziaulislam

Falcon26 said:


> What if Pakistan receives the F-16s from Turkey? As you know, many pilots were laid off after last year's coup and many squadrons have lost pilots creating a pilot shortage situation. Due to Pakistan's excellent relationship with Turkey and due to deep customization of Turkish F-16 with standoff weapons like SOM, shouldn't this route be a top priority for PAF? Turkey has more than 240+ F-16s and I am pretty sure they won't mind selling 30 F-16s or so to Pakistan. As a NATO ally, the Turks can lobby on Pakistan's behalf to get the F-16s released.


Turkey , GCC...... lobbying depends upon the source country, at this moment defence is way way doen the list of things for the federal govt

Example: mushi wanted defense equipment just look at his lobbying and its results.

Zardari wanted lobbying for aid(corruption) and got the kerry loger bill. 
Nawaz intersted in aid for GCC look at his lobbying


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> What if Pakistan receives the F-16s from Turkey? As you know, many pilots were laid off after last year's coup and many squadrons have lost pilots creating a pilot shortage situation. Due to Pakistan's excellent relationship with Turkey and due to deep customization of Turkish F-16 with standoff weapons like SOM, shouldn't this route be a top priority for PAF? Turkey has more than 240+ F-16s and I am pretty sure they won't mind selling 30 F-16s or so to Pakistan. As a NATO ally, the Turks can lobby on Pakistan's behalf to get the F-16s released.


Possibly but my impression of the U.S. is that if there's a decision, it sticks. When it suits American interests, they'll ignore Pakistan's faults and arm it (e.g. 1980s and 2001-2009). However, when they decide to impose limitations, they stick unless interests dictate otherwise. That said, there may be a technical issue with Turkish F-16s too in that they're powered by GE turbofans (Block-30/40/50), while the PAF uses PW (Block-52). The PAF would need Block-25/32/42/52 airframes, which are relatively uncommon. Most surplus airframes are in the AMARC.

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## Windjammer

Pakistan - Air Force 
General Dynamics F-16A/ADF Fighting Falcon (401)
Reg.: 14-732
Location & Date 
Karachi 
Pakistan - August 14, 2017
Caption
Performing on the occasion of 70th Independence Day of Pakistan.

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## ziaulislam

next couple of years will be interesting especially since Dutch, Belgium, Denmark will be retiring their F-16A/MLUs and we do know that F16 can go through SLEP


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## Avicenna

ziaulislam said:


> next couple of years will be interesting especially since Dutch, Belgium, Denmark will be retiring their F-16A/MLUs and we do know that F16 can go through SLEP



As much as those planes would be great option. Politically I doubt it's possible. The US India and Israel will become increasingly friendly. On the other side will be China and Pakistan.

PAF hopefully understands this.

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## ziaulislam

Avicenna said:


> As much as those planes would be great option. Politically I doubt it's possible. The US India and Israel will become increasingly friendly. On the other side will be China and Pakistan.
> 
> PAF hopefully understands this.


PAF is lucky to have JF-17 its not dependent upon the f-16s any more, so if it doesn't materialize it would probably be loss to not only PAF and USA for losing it leverage
PAF will make that up via Thunders

Pakistani Vipers still lack some weapons for particular roles thus they are not truly multirole for Pakistan in that sense

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## Avicenna

ziaulislam said:


> PAF is lucky to have JF-17 its not dependent upon the f-16s any more, so if it doesn't materialize it would probably be loss to not only PAF and USA for losing it leverage
> PAF will make that up via Thunders
> 
> Pakistani Vipers still lack some weapons for particular roles thus they are not truly multirole for Pakistan in that sense



As I have said before, just imagine the predicament for PAF had China not improved as much as it did in regards to producing military aircraft and its related technologies.

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## Raider 21

ziaulislam said:


> PAF is lucky to have JF-17 its not dependent upon the f-16s any more, so if it doesn't materialize it would probably be loss to not only PAF and USA for losing it leverage
> PAF will make that up via Thunders
> 
> Pakistani Vipers still lack some weapons for particular roles thus they are not truly multirole for Pakistan in that sense


It still relies very heavily on F-16s even during the embargo years.


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## CriticalThought

Knuckles said:


> It still relies very heavily on F-16s even during the embargo years.



Hopefully Thunder Block 3 will change that.

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## Raider 21

CriticalThought said:


> Hopefully Thunder Block 3 will change that.


Regardless.....Viper is a class of its own...Thunder may or may not catch up there but it is bridging the gap to some extent.

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## MastanKhan

Avicenna said:


> As I have said before, just imagine the predicament for PAF had China not improved as much as it did in regards to producing military aircraft and its related technologies.



Hi,

Paf is a FRAUD---. They are criminals.

Before china stepped in---they had access to France---M2K's---then the best of the best aircraft was made available to them---the Rafale---.

It is not as if the world was coming down on them.

They could have forced the U S to come up with 3-5 sqdrn's of F16's right after 9/11---.

The problem that Pakistan's defense finds itself in is the creation of the Paf---they are full of treason---.

2 or 5 honest generals don't make a fighting force---they are just a front to hide the criminal activities of the corrupt generals of the air force.

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## Clairvoyant

Bro why do they even let you talk on this forum,you don't know thr ABC of defence procurement and here you are talking about treason.Never seen you mumble a single positive word in the years

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## niaz

After application of the Pressler Amendment stopped deliveries of 28 F16s for which Pakistan had already paid $658-million. Pakistan delegation started serious negotiation with the French for purchasing 30 Mirage 2000–5. I heard Benazir Bhutto herself saying on TV that while F-16 cost $24-million per piece in 1989 dollars. French were asking $2-billion for 30 Mirages.

Due to lesser numbers manufactured, French fighters are generally more expensive any way; understand initial batch of 51 Mirage 2000 ordered by India in the early 1990s cost IRs 133 crore or about $40-million each, much higher price to Pakistan was mainly due to the exorbitant commission demanded by Mr Zardari, the husband of BB.

To be fair it was not fault of PAF, a near bankrupt Pakistan could not afford it.

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## Avicenna

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Paf is a FRAUD---. They are criminals.
> 
> Before china stepped in---they had access to France---M2K's---then the best of the best aircraft was made available to them---the Rafale---.
> 
> It is not as if the world was coming down on them.
> 
> They could have forced the U S to come up with 3-5 sqdrn's of F16's right after 9/11---.
> 
> The problem that Pakistan's defense finds itself in is the creation of the Paf---they are full of treason---.
> 
> 2 or 5 honest generals don't make a fighting force---they are just a front to hide the criminal activities of the corrupt generals of the air force.



Its a shame. I wonder what the procurement process is in Israel? Corruption no doubt exists there too? Yet they field an armed forces which is DOMINANT compared to its neighbors. Whats the secret?

Maybe Pakistan can adopt some of their practices?


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## ziaulislam

niaz said:


> After application of the Pressler Amendment stopped deliveries of 28 F16s for which Pakistan had already paid $658-million. Pakistan delegation started serious negotiation with the French for purchasing 30 Mirage 2000–5. I heard Benazir Bhutto herself saying on TV that while F-16 cost $24-million per piece in 1989 dollars. French were asking $2-billion for 30 Mirages.
> 
> Due to lesser numbers manufactured, French fighters are generally more expensive any way; understand initial batch of 51 Mirage 2000 ordered by India in the early 1990s cost IRs 133 crore or about $40-million each, much higher price to Pakistan was mainly due to the exorbitant commission demanded by Mr Zardari, the husband of BB.
> 
> To be fair it was not fault of PAF, a near bankrupt Pakistan could not afford it.


we can afford 2 billion today lol let alone in 1990s



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Paf is a FRAUD---. They are criminals.
> 
> Before china stepped in---they had access to France---M2K's---then the best of the best aircraft was made available to them---the Rafale---.
> 
> It is not as if the world was coming down on them.
> 
> They could have forced the U S to come up with 3-5 sqdrn's of F16's right after 9/11---.
> 
> The problem that Pakistan's defense finds itself in is the creation of the Paf---they are full of treason---.
> 
> 2 or 5 honest generals don't make a fighting force---they are just a front to hide the criminal activities of the corrupt generals of the air force.


i agree with this part "They could have forced the U S to come up with 3-5 sqdrn's of F16's "

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## CriticalThought

ziaulislam said:


> we can afford 2 billion today lol let alone in 1990s
> 
> 
> i agree with this part "They could have forced the U S to come up with 3-5 sqdrn's of F16's "



Sir jee, they could have forced the US to declare Pakistan as the 51st state. That might be an exaggeration, but there was a certain lobby at the time who were openly discussing the possibility of turning over Pakistan to US governance. With hindsight, their servile, subservient, and slave like attitude didn't buy Pakistan any favors. Because exactly during that time, a highly anti-Pakistan government was installed in Afghanistan. Today, these dogs are barking at our doorsteps, and America is openly pointing the finger of blame at us. Food for thought for anyone who thinks we could have 'forced the US to do x'. How can anyone suggest that when it has become obvious that traitor Musharraf was an American agent, who is today getting salary from an American uni. Their agents actively took measures to weaken our geo-strategic position, and make us slaves to American hegemony, just like they are themselves menial mental slaves to their American masters.


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## cloud4000

ziaulislam said:


> we can afford 2 billion today lol let alone in 1990s



How given that Pakistan's foreign debt has increased substantially since then? Debt-servicing alone is eating much of Pakistan's current budget. Plus, there are substantial investment in CPEC too. Not impossible, but the fiscal room for maneuver is extremely limited, especially in the short- to middle-term.


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## MastanKhan

Imadafridi said:


> Bro why do they even let you talk on this forum,you don't know thr ABC of defence procurement and here you are talking about treason.Never seen you mumble a single positive word in the years



Hi,

Why don't you step up to the podium and speak up.



Avicenna said:


> Its a shame. I wonder what the procurement process is in Israel? Corruption no doubt exists there too? Yet they field an armed forces which is DOMINANT compared to its neighbors. Whats the secret?
> 
> Maybe Pakistan can adopt some of their practices?



Hi,

Jul 2, 2012#1

Thanks to @Horus

If you understand urdu----


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## Avicenna

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Why don't you step up to the podium and speak up.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Jul 2, 2012#1
> 
> Thanks to @Horus
> 
> If you understand urdu----



Ingles por favor.


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## Inception-06

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> 
> They could have forced the U S to come up with 3-5 sqdrn's of F16's right after 9/11---.
> 
> The problem that Pakistan's defense finds itself



I agree with this part!

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

If you had 30 M2K's in 1998---yur air superiority would have been at a different levelIf you had paid double the price of f16's to buy 35 Rafale---you would have siged a PEACE DEAL with india---.

If you had bought your 50 + F16's by 2004---you would still have signed a peace deal with India.

I mean to say---how dumb and stupid are you pakistanis---have you no comprehension at all what a potent air force would have done for the keeping peace in the arena 15 years ago---.

Have you no concept that for spending an extra 2 billions---you the pakistanis and indians would be moving in a different direction---away from war---do you have any concept what propsperity that would have brought the country---.

I am shocked beyond belief at the level of stupidity of well educated pakistanis---they have no concept of the consequences of strategic and tactical procurement.

Your Paf is so dumb---it gave the best aircraft awy to the indians---The Rafale---.

They are so dumb---they then gave away the F16 to India---they are so dumb that they gave away the F35 to india as well---.

When a nation appoints the most INCOMPETENT & YESSIR to be the GENERAL to lead its forces---the army---the air force---there is no good that is expected from that.

If I was in power---I would have spent 5 billion for the Rafales beg borrow or steal---any which way---.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If you had 30 M2K's in 1998---yur air superiority would have been at a different levelIf you had paid double the price of f16's to buy 35 Rafale---you would have siged a PEACE DEAL with india---.
> 
> If you had bought your 50 + F16's by 2004---you would still have signed a peace deal with India.
> 
> I mean to say---how dumb and stupid are you pakistanis---have you no comprehension at all what a potent air force would have done for the keeping peace in the arena 15 years ago---.
> 
> Have you no concept that for spending an extra 2 billions---you the pakistanis and indians would be moving in a different direction---away from war---do you have any concept what propsperity that would have brought the country---.
> 
> I am shocked beyond belief at the level of stupidity of well educated pakistanis---they have no concept of the consequences of strategic and tactical procurement.
> 
> Your Paf is so dumb---it gave the best aircraft awy to the indians---The Rafale---.
> 
> They are so dumb---they then gave away the F16 to India---they are so dumb that they gave away the F35 to india as well---.
> 
> When a nation appoints the most INCOMPETENT & YESSIR to be the GENERAL to lead its forces---the army---the air force---there is no good that is expected from that.
> 
> If I was in power---I would have spent 5 billion for the Rafales beg borrow or steal---any which way---.
> 
> I would have sent a *100 K + troops for yemen*---and built a seperate strike group including aircraft---armor and navy.
> 
> Earlier this year---the general was apologetic---says he did not read into the Yemen and later consequences right---he did not understand and comprehend what was coming---he should have done what I had suggested---.


Not Pakistan's war. Plus there must be a reason that PAF does not have you in their service. Running your business is not necessarily the same as running the air force.


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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> Not Pakistan's war. Plus there must be a reason that PAF does not have you in their service. Running your business is not necessarily the same as running the air force.




Youngman,

Read up on history----none of Chengiz Khan's generals were soldiers---they were sheep and horse herders---.

They had no military training---yet they smashed thru the largest armies of the world.

Golda Meir was no soldier---yet she signed for the most expensive arms deal of its time.

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## Avicenna

I will only say this. I am dumbfounded how Pakistan could not get more from Unlce Sam immediately post 9/11.

I also can not understand, acknowledging the costs of the earthquake at the time, PAF did not excercise all 55 block 52s instead of only 18.

Did they take for granted the favor of US would remain with Pakistan. 

It's a lack of foresight and diplomacy to not see that the US is a user.

Should have grabbed as much as possible and taken advantage of American favor at that time.

Now it's too late. And I am predicting Trump's address to the nation will hammer the nail in Pakistan's coffin in terms of the ability to acquire US made weapons systems of any significance.

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## MastanKhan

Avicenna said:


> I will only say this. I am dumbfounded how Pakistan could not get more from Unlce Sam immediately post 9/11.
> 
> I also can not understand, acknowledging the costs of the earthquake at the time, PAF did not excercise all 55 block 52s instead of only 18.
> 
> Did they take for granted the favor of US would remain with Pakistan.
> 
> It's a lack of foresight and diplomacy to not see that the US is a user.
> 
> Should have grabbed as much as possible and taken advantage of American favor at that time.
> 
> Now it's too late. And I am predicting Trump's address to the nation will hammer the nail in Pakistan's coffin in terms of the ability to acquire US made weapons systems of any significance.



Hi,

Everyone can see now that it is too late---.

But the problem here is that most pakistanis don't remember that the main reason Paf decided not to go for the F16's immediately---because they had ASSUMED that the peace deal was inevitable due to the peace gestures from India---. Even before the peace deal was signed---they thought it was a done deal---.

These traitors sabotaged the integrity and safety of the nation.

Thus they decided to drop the purchase of he F16's---and decided to go forth with the JF17---thinking for their future jobs.

Otherwise---when there were F16's / M2k / Rafale were available and a monster of an enemy next door---there was no place for the JF17 to fit into the picture at that time.


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## Jinn Baba

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If you had 30 M2K's in 1998---yur air superiority would have been at a different levelIf you had paid double the price of f16's to buy 35 Rafale---you would have siged a PEACE DEAL with india---.
> 
> If you had bought your 50 + F16's by 2004---you would still have signed a peace deal with India.
> 
> I mean to say---how dumb and stupid are you pakistanis---have you no comprehension at all what a potent air force would have done for the keeping peace in the arena 15 years ago---.
> 
> Have you no concept that for spending an extra 2 billions---you the pakistanis and indians would be moving in a different direction---away from war---do you have any concept what propsperity that would have brought the country---.
> 
> I am shocked beyond belief at the level of stupidity of well educated pakistanis---they have no concept of the consequences of strategic and tactical procurement.
> 
> Your Paf is so dumb---it gave the best aircraft awy to the indians---The Rafale---.
> 
> They are so dumb---they then gave away the F16 to India---they are so dumb that they gave away the F35 to india as well---.
> 
> When a nation appoints the most INCOMPETENT & YESSIR to be the GENERAL to lead its forces---the army---the air force---there is no good that is expected from that.
> 
> If I was in power---I would have spent 5 billion for the Rafales beg borrow or steal---any which way---.





MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Everyone can see now that it is too late---.
> 
> But the problem here is that most pakistanis don't remember that the main reason Paf decided not to go for the F16's immediately---because they had ASSUMED that the peace deal was inevitable due to the peace gestures from India---. Even before the peace deal was signed---they thought it was a done deal---.
> 
> These traitors sabotaged the integrity and safety of the nation.
> 
> Thus they decided to drop the purchase of he F16's---and decided to go forth with the JF17---thinking for their future jobs.
> 
> Otherwise---when there were F16's / M2k / Rafale were available and a monster of an enemy next door---there was no place for the JF17 to fit into the picture at that time.



You talk so much $hit!


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## MastanKhan

Jinn Baba said:


> You talk so much $hit!



Hi,

Each to his own---truth is not easy to swallow.

Just wait for Trump's speech today---.


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## Shane

MastanKhan said:


> They could have forced the U S to come up with 3-5 sqdrn's of F16's right after 9/11---.



Agreed. They could have got 2 sqdrns of F15's even, the answer to our current requirements and we would've been sitting pretty just by having 24 or 36 of the best air superiority fighters as well as attack aircraft. 

The problem was lack of realization that US was more than willing to give us more than a few goodies for cooperation on Afghanistan.

We have the luxury of talking retrospectively but at the same time it was criminally negligent of the Top brass to not just push it's bucket under the faucet when it mattered but also at least, "ask" US to "spin" it open.

That is the point, I think, that even the Chinese realized what's sitting next door to them and must have kicked themselves for not realizing the potential, looking at all those coalition supply trucks going through Pakistan virtually for free, hence CPEC.

Those F15s would've still sent jitters down our neighbours spine for decades with double or quadruple the number of Rafael.

I know, I would be ridiculed for thinking F15s but India would never be to US what Israel is and yet we see Arabs and Turks playing with close to cutting-edge US tech. It is all about playing your hand smartly enough.

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## CriticalThought

Shane said:


> Agreed. They could have got 2 sqdrns of F15's even, the answer to our current requirements and we would've been sitting pretty just by having 24 or 36 of the best air superiority fighters as well as attack aircraft.
> 
> The problem was lack of realization that US was more than willing to give us more than a few goodies for cooperation on Afghanistan.
> 
> We have the luxury of talking retrospectively but at the same time it was criminally negligent of the Top brass to not just push it's bucket under the faucet when it mattered but also at least, "ask" US to "spin" it open.
> 
> That is the point, I think, that even the Chinese realized what's sitting next door to them and must have kicked themselves for not realizing the potential, looking at all those coalition supply trucks going through Pakistan virtually for free, hence CPEC.
> 
> Those F15s would've still sent jitters down our neighbours spine for decades with double or quadruple the number of Rafael.
> 
> I know, I would be ridiculed for thinking F15s but India would never be to US what Israel is and yet we see Arabs and Turks playing with close to cutting-edge US tech. It is all about playing your hand smartly enough.



If the Arabs ever commit the folly of using their American/European toys against Israel, they are going to have a very rude awakening. You simply don't use American toys to threaten interests of America and its allies. I'll leave it at that. Those F-15s, even if we go them, would be no use against India once America decided to prop India against us.


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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> ...how dumb and stupid are you pakistanis...
> 
> Your Paf is so dumb...




Well since its not your PAF, how about you keep your opinions about them and us to yourself.

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## Shane

CriticalThought said:


> If the Arabs ever commit the folly of using their American/European toys against Israel, they are going to have a very rude awakening. You simply don't use American toys to threaten interests of America and its allies. I'll leave it at that. Those F-15s, even if we go them, would be no use against India once America decided to prop India against us.



It's seldom about using, it's always about having, just like our block 52s. I'll leave it at that too.

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## Avicenna

Less carrot and more stick. Forget about surplus F-16s.

Pakistan is in a load of trouble.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Avicenna said:


> Less carrot and more stick. Forget about surplus F-16s.
> 
> Pakistan is in a load of trouble.


The tragedy is that countries have to choose between 'izzat and ease. 

For some reason Pakistan gets neither! No ease in ease. No 'izzat in hardship.

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## CriticalThought

Shane said:


> It's seldom about using, it's always about having, just like our block 52s. I'll leave it at that too.



Yeah, you have it. And you are under threat from both Afghanistan and India. Mr. Trump just said clearly there is a possibility of conflict between India/Pakistan and they will make sure nuclear weapons are not used 'anywhere in the world'.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The tragedy is that countries have to choose between 'izzat and ease.
> 
> For some reason Pakistan gets neither! No ease in ease. No 'izzat in hardship.



Until and unless you stand up to them, you won't get any. Saying "We wish to be recognized for sacrifices..." won't get respect. Going to UN, and clearly stating we have done our job and we consider America a bully, and a hegemon hell bent upon wrecking havoc, creating dissent and conflict, in pursuit of its imperialistic aims will get you a lot of respect.

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## Shane

MastanKhan said:


> Otherwise---when there were F16's / M2k / Rafale were available and a monster of an enemy next door---there was no place for the JF17 to fit into the picture at that time.



Disagree here. JF17 fits perfectly as a mainstay to make up numbers on the low end in a high(-medium)-low combination not to overlook Block 3+ AESA JF17s punching above its weight.

Best case realistic scenario:
A couple of sqdrns of high-end air superiority(missing).
AESA JF17s, Block 52 F16s and MLUs.
JF17s block 2 in numbers on low end along with some specialized Mirages.

Usefulness of JF17 is immeasurable.



CriticalThought said:


> Yeah, you have it. And you are under threat from both Afghanistan and India. Mr. Trump just said clearly there is a possibility of conflict between India/Pakistan and they will make sure nuclear weapons are not used 'anywhere in the world'.



Flabbergasted is the word.

By the way on a lighter note, you must have heard the old joke about a poor villager going out and buying a rifle that turned out to be the most valuable asset in his possession that ended up being kept hidden from thieves...
Remember the Indian CV in war was kept farthest away from Pakistan Navy and PAF for protection. Don't be thinking like that. Air superiority assets serve quite the opposite of what you are alluding to.

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## ziaulislam

CriticalThought said:


> Going to UN, and clearly stating we have done our job and we consider America a bully, and a hegemon hell bent upon wrecking havoc, creating dissent and conflict, in pursuit of its imperialistic aims will get you a lot of respect.


govt simply needs to say no to some thing like drones, open media accusation against Pakistan, USA is not happy with many of her allies but they dont do open accusations (until trump) because they would see a strong response(even if that country is small and has no oil) the only excpetion here is Pakistan for some odd reasons

a strong stance will not change for the bad for Pakistan but traditional political parties will not take a stand as they dont want to weaken their position with USA, all of them purely want USA backing
while the people will not entertain new faces in politics, *ultimately the fault lies in educated urban middle class of Pakistan for supporting such a poor leadership
with exception to educated urban areas of KPK, may be islamabad, there is no awareness for change, this doesn't relates to PTI, KPK urban areas have always voted for different peoples and new faces*

remember how BB and nawaz would talk when they were in exile


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## Avicenna

CriticalThought said:


> Yeah, you have it. And you are under threat from both Afghanistan and India. Mr. Trump just said clearly there is a possibility of conflict between India/Pakistan and they will make sure nuclear weapons are not used 'anywhere in the world'.
> 
> 
> 
> Until and unless you stand up to them, you won't get any. Saying "We wish to be recognized for sacrifices..." won't get respect. Going to UN, and clearly stating we have done our job and we consider America a bully, and a hegemon hell bent upon wrecking havoc, creating dissent and conflict, in pursuit of its imperialistic aims will get you a lot of respect.



Going to the UN and calling the US a bully isnt going to get you any respect. Its gonna get you bombed.


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## Chak Bamu

MastanKhan said:


> If I was in power---I would have spent 5 billion for the Rafales beg borrow or steal---any which way---.



I am glad you never got anywhere close to being in power (actually you could never since you obviously lack the necessary skills).

There was going to be a peace deal with India, and we were on our way to doing that without Rafales. But as we all know Kargil happened. Rafales or no Rafales, it was Kargil misadventure that killed chances of any peace deal with India. Had peace deals been contingent upon marginal improvements in weaponry, we would not have seen so many wars in 20th century. Your logic is specious beyond belief, and no amount of convincing can get you off your high horse of Rafale bringing peace to Sough Asia. There is such a thing in this world as Game Theory and I doubt Indians are ignorant of it. In fact they have played beautifully and we have ended up with cynics like yourself who fervently believe in the power of weapons over development.

Does it ever occur to you that expensive Rafales would have meant less expenditure on education? Does it every occur to you that expensive Rafales would have meant more Madrassahs? Does it ever occur to you that expensive Rafales would have meant worsened socio-economic situation in Pakistan beyond what actually had happened in 90s? On top of it, you ignore what India might have done in response - because you never question your assumption that Rafale would bring peace. It is this sort of tiresome repetition and bickering from you that is nauseating. You are incapable of thinking straight and keep up with parochial & cynical slogans that senior posters find so distasteful.



MastanKhan said:


> Youngman,
> 
> Read up on history----none of Chengiz Khan's generals were soldiers---they were sheep and horse herders---.
> 
> They had no military training---yet they smashed thru the largest armies of the world.
> 
> Golda Meir was no soldier---yet she signed for the most expensive arms deal of its time.



I do not know what history you read. But clearly, you forgot to read the parts where Chengiz Khan & his aides mounted many campaigns inside Mongolia. Mongols had lived with continuous warfare, raiding tribes and picking off cattle and women as and when they could. They bred hardy horses and thus had an absolute advantage in mobility. So, they had an understanding of Logistics, Mobility, & Alliance-building. This is how generals are made

China could not have been conquered without a deep understanding of logistics, own relative strength, & appreciation of human weaknesses. None of their other conquests could have happened if they did not have top-notch generalship honed over the years. You can not argue against success. But your train of thought does not care how many stations it passes in ignorance.

Show me ONE weapon system that Mongols had that others did not? You would not find anything akin to your pretty Rafale. Now China did have plenty of advantages, and they had plenty of resources. They could and did afford plenty of 'Rafales' of their day (Wall of China, anyone?), but it all failed. Weapons by themselves do not guarantee success. 

You make much of PAF being a failure. I would much rather prefer that they fail with fewer money and resources, than with more money an resources.

The examples you give are laughable indeed. You want to find us Rafales from the example of Mongols? About Golda Meir - well she was assured of a lot of support from USA government and Zionist groups. She had a highly educated and motivated population. She knew that her country would pull through. Now contrast with Pakistan..... You just can not do that, can you? Already Pakistan is bleeding from so many cuts inflicted by own assets and institutions. Our security-mindset has really really cost us our socio-economic development. This is our Achilles' heel, and you purposely advocate that we should make it worse.

F-16s or schools is a hard choice. You want us to have compounded it by choosing between Rafales and State. That is pretty idiotic, only if you can open your eyes to see it.

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## MastanKhan

Shane said:


> Disagree here. JF17 fits perfectly as a mainstay to make up numbers on the low end in a high(-medium)-low combination not to overlook Block 3+ AESA JF17s punching above its weight.
> 
> Best case realistic scenario:
> A couple of sqdrns of high-end air superiority(missing).
> AESA JF17s, Block 52 F16s and MLUs.
> JF17s block 2 in numbers on low end along with some specialized Mirages.
> 
> Usefulness of JF17 is immeasurable.
> 
> 
> 
> Flabbergasted is the word.
> 
> By the way on a lighter note, you must have heard the old joke about a poor villager going out and buying a rifle that turned out to be the most valuable asset in his possession that ended up being kept hidden from thieves...
> Remember the Indian CV in war was kept farthest away from Pakistan Navy and PAF for protection. Don't be thinking like that. Air superiority assets serve quite the opposite of what you are alluding to.



Hi,

You hit a part of the nail on the head----. If somehow or the other Paf had gotten 50 F16's right after 9/11---or 30 + Rafales---the wind would have fallen out the sales of the enemy---.

They were done and dusted---with the Rafale---you would have taken possesion of the most superior aircraft available---or with 50+ F16's---you would have had a massive force multiplier. That is what the enemy was scared of and not the JF17---getting someone scared is like winning half the battle---fearful people make a lots of mistakes---.

But when the earthquake happened and the Paf donated the money to the earthquake---and the Paf out of usual sheer stupidity made a public announcement about donating the money to the relief fund.

Where the fck is the deceit and deception in military hardware procurement---where the fck is the guessing game---.

That is why I call these Paf generals traitors of pakistan---they openly told the enemy that we were broke---we did not have the money---we gave the money away---J10 is an inferior aircraft---the chinese awacs are inferior---we did not buy early enough because we assessed that the peace deal with india was a done deal there is no ending to the deception of the Paf against Pakistan.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Youngman,
> 
> These things I talk about---they are beyond you at this time---please don't bother to indulge---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> You hit a part of the nail on the head----. If somehow or the other Paf had gotten 50 F16's right after 9/11---or 30 + Rafales---the wind would have fallen out the sales of the enemy---.
> 
> They were done and dusted---with the Rafale---you would have taken possesion of the most superior aircraft available---or with 50+ F16's---you would have had a massive force multiplier. That is what the enemy was scared of and not the JF17---getting someone scared is like winning half the battle---fearful people make a lots of mistakes---.
> 
> But when the earthquake happened and the *Paf donated the money to the earthquake*---and the Paf out of usual sheer stupidity made a public announcement about donating the money to the relief fund.
> 
> Where the fck is the deceit and deception in military hardware procurement---where the fck is the guessing game---.
> 
> That is why I call these Paf generals traitors of pakistan---they openly told the enemy that we were broke---we did not have the money---we gave the money away---J10 is an inferior aircraft---the chinese awacs are inferior---we did not buy early enough because we assessed that the peace deal with india was a done deal there is no ending to the deception of the Paf against Pakistan.
> 
> @Chak Bamu you are not that upto date youngman---this supposed peace deal that the Paf was jumping at---was around 2004-05---Kargil incidence happened years ago---Rafale was not offered in the late 90's but the early 2000's---.
> 
> The mongol composite bow and the mongol pony---plus spare ponies for each rider---roughly about 80 arrows per archer. The mongol bow could out distance the opponents bow---the mongol archer shot from the back of the horse---.


Glad did they did that for those of us who were stuck.....sincerely grateful.


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## Chak Bamu

MastanKhan said:


> Youngman,
> 
> These things I talk about---they are beyond you at this time---please don't bother to indulge---.
> 
> 
> @Chak Bamu you are not that upto date youngman---this supposed peace deal that the Paf was jumping at---was around 2004-05---Kargil incidence happened years ago---Rafale was not offered in the late 90's but the early 2000's---.
> 
> The mongol composite bow and the mongol pony---plus spare ponies for each rider---roughly about 80 arrows per archer. The mongol bow could out distance the opponents bow---the mongol archer shot from the back of the horse---.



Don't 'young man' me you crank. I dye my hair.

You bring irrelevant stuff from all over. Sometimes it is M2K, then it is Rafale, tomorrow it might be F-35 or something. You are fixated on weapons, when that actually should be the least of Pakistan's worries. Your theme is always the same - "PAF is traitor", "PAF is stupid", "PAF has lost it", etc... The only one who has actually lost it is you yourself. It is beyond belief that anyone can argue that a weapon system can be a vehicle for imposing peace upon a neighbor that is 10x the size of Pakistan's economy. If there could be such a weapon, then nuclear armament is it and we already have that.

Parthian shots, ponies, and composite bow do not win battles in themselves. It was generalship and understanding of human weaknesses. None of the above could scale the Great Wall of China. It was bribery that worked.

I may have finally learned to appreciate the comic value of your posts. I think I would rather enjoy them.

Aside from above, today's developments prove the value & wisdom inherent in opting for JF-17. More F-16s were simply more trouble. It might take a few months to ride out the rough patch. I hope PAF finally gets over its romance with F-16. Bring on the J10...



MastanKhan said:


> Ain't you not very intelligent for a 47 years old---.


Double negative, especially use of Ain't (short for "is not") confirms sub-100 IQ level.



Knuckles said:


> Glad did they did that for those of us who were stuck.....sincerely grateful.


I am willing to bet that he would not get it. He simply does not have enough neurons, or size of heart to realize that.

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## araz

Shane said:


> Disagree here. JF17 fits perfectly as a mainstay to make up numbers on the low end in a high(-medium)-low combination not to overlook Block 3+ AESA JF17s punching above its weight.
> 
> Best case realistic scenario:
> A couple of sqdrns of high-end air superiority(missing).
> AESA JF17s, Block 52 F16s and MLUs.
> JF17s block 2 in numbers on low end along with some specialized Mirages.
> 
> Usefulness of JF17 is immeasurable.
> 
> 
> 
> Flabbergasted is the word.
> 
> By the way on a lighter note, you must have heard the old joke about a poor villager going out and buying a rifle that turned out to be the most valuable asset in his possession that ended up being kept hidden from thieves...
> Remember the Indian CV in war was kept farthest away from Pakistan Navy and PAF for protection. Don't be thinking like that. Air superiority assets serve quite the opposite of what you are alluding to.


Could not agree more. A very factual analysis. . Keep up the good work.( I meant to say young man but given people's sensitivities to the term can I still say not so young man???)

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## araz

ziaulislam said:


> govt simply needs to say no to some thing like drones, open media accusation against Pakistan, USA is not happy with many of her allies but they dont do open accusations (until trump) because they would see a strong response(even if that country is small and has no oil) the only excpetion here is Pakistan for some odd reasons
> 
> a strong stance will not change for the bad for Pakistan but traditional political parties will not take a stand as they dont want to weaken their position with USA, all of them purely want USA backing
> while the people will not entertain new faces in politics, *ultimately the fault lies in educated urban middle class of Pakistan for supporting such a poor leadership
> with exception to educated urban areas of KPK, may be islamabad, there is no awareness for change, this doesn't relates to PTI, KPK urban areas have always voted for different peoples and new faces*
> 
> remember how BB and nawaz would talk when they were in exile


May I ask how you say No to something which you want to the job for you and which flies with your total and utter (most times) agreement.
The bhookas and nangas of this world(I refer to all conotations of it, ie, morally, socially,Ideologically and financially decrepid ones)do not have a stance especially since their masters decides who stands and who falls in the power corridors(perhaps you have forgotten Benazir v/s Zardari, much as I detested them both or did you think it was just an event !!!). Our intellectual depravity is the reason why we are in such a predicament and why every Choora Chamaar is dictating to us. Because a nation which proudly announces that its appeal for loan from the IMF has been successful needs to go down the same pee hole which we are in.
We are again making the same mistake in elevating another human being to the status of a demigod and let me predict that he will agian disappoint you. 
We need systems and processes which are not enslaved to any institution or person and downright honesty on an individual and national level before we can progress.This effectively means that a Sabzi walla when he hides rotten veg underneath good veg and cheats you by weighing less than what you have paid for is equally at fault as a corrupt Secretariat official who takes a female teacher home for a session of a 2 on one sandwich just so she can get a job in her favourite school and the teacher who goes with that Bastard as well as the leader who abducts the children of his potential targets to wrestle a house out of them which he likes but the person does not want to sell.. And I am relating things which I saw and heard from my own eyes and ears in the 90s when I was in Pakistan. I am told things are far worse. this is why we are in a mess not some firangi red faced idiot who dictates to us.

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## ziaulislam

At fault here is our racial alliances and supporting political parties based upon that. The problem is mainly in educated urban middle class


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## Shane

araz said:


> Could not agree more. A very factual analysis. . Keep up the good work.( I meant to say young man but given people's sensitivities to the term can I still say not so young man???)



I am actually 41 years young so wouldn't mind it at all. Made my day.
Thank you.


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## ziaulislam

PML N will thus have punjab,ppp sindh and MQM karachi


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## CriticalThought

araz said:


> May I ask how you say No to something which you want to the job for you and which flies with your total and utter (most times) agreement.
> The bhookas and nangas of this world(I refer to all conotations of it, ie, morally, socially,Ideologically and financially decrepid ones)do not have a stance especially since their masters decides who stands and who falls in the power corridors(perhaps you have forgotten Benazir v/s Zardari, much as I detested them both or did you think it was just an event !!!). Our intellectual depravity is the reason why we are in such a predicament and why every Choora Chamaar is dictating to us. Because a nation which proudly announces that its appeal for loan from the IMF has been successful needs to go down the same pee hole which we are in.
> We are again making the same mistake in elevating another human being to the status of a demigod and let me predict that he will agian disappoint you.
> We need systems and processes which are not enslaved to any institution or person and downright honesty on an individual and national level before we can progress.This effectively means that a Sabzi walla when he hides rotten veg underneath good veg and cheats you by weighing less than what you have paid for is equally at fault as a corrupt Secretariat official who takes a female teacher home for a session of a 2 on one sandwich just so she can get a job in her favourite school and the teacher who goes with that Bastard as well as the leader who abducts the children of his potential targets to wrestle a house out of them which he likes but the person does not want to sell.. And I am relating things which I saw and heard from my own eyes and ears in the 90s when I was in Pakistan. I am told things are far worse. this is why we are in a mess not some firangi red faced idiot who dictates to us.



Corruption, brutality, dishonour is everywhere. No country is a country of angels. What's different with Pakistan is our entire ruling class is imported. And hence our policies are made to fit foreign interests. And the common people have been beaten into complacency and submission through both poverty and lawlessness. The common poor man in Pakistan does not believe he is living in a safe environment. He thinks trying to change the status quo will only lead to misery for him and his family. And thus, the circus continues.


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## ziaulislam

CriticalThought said:


> Corruption, brutality, dishonour is everywhere. No country is a country of angels. What's different with Pakistan is our entire ruling class is imported. And hence our policies are made to fit foreign interests. And the common people have been beaten into complacency and submission through both poverty and lawlessness. The common poor man in Pakistan does not believe he is living in a safe environment. He thinks trying to change the status quo will only lead to misery for him and his family. And thus, the circus continues.


Difference is that huge majority of our educated class people here in this forum will vote for those people especially in punjab, sindh and will than go along and complain as well
There are decent leaders in every party but they know that they cant do anything without the popular vote of bhutto and nawaz.


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## ziaulislam

I remeber my class mate highly educated doctors voting for zardari because all of sudeen BB was a hero


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## CriticalThought

ziaulislam said:


> Difference is that huge majority of our educated class people here in this forum will vote for those people especially in punjab, sindh and will than go along and complain as well
> There are decent leaders in every party but they know that they cant do anything without the popular vote of bhutto and nawaz.



There are no other options.


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## araz

ziaulislam said:


> At fault here is our racial alliances and supporting political parties based upon that. The problem is mainly in educated urban middle class


I think the problem is a lack of direction as a nation. Who are we? What is the basis on which stand as a nation? What are we going to do and where are we going? Till we honestly answer these questions we can blame everything under the sun and it wont benefit us one iota. These questions need answering nationally.
A

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## Avicenna

araz said:


> I think the problem is a lack of direction as a nation. Who are we? What is the basis on which stand as a nation? What are we going to do and where are we going? Till we honestly answer these questions we can blame everything under the sun and it wont benefit us one iota. These questions need answering nationally.
> A



This is one the the best posts I've read in my many years of browsing on this forum.

I wish I could give a positive rating.

To be honest, the same sentiment also applies to a lot of other countries out there right now.

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## CriticalThought

Chak Bamu said:


> About Golda Meir - well she was assured of a lot of support from USA government and Zionist groups. She had a highly educated and motivated population. She knew that her country would pull through. Now contrast with Pakistan..... You just can not do that, can you? Already Pakistan is bleeding from so many cuts inflicted by own assets and institutions. Our security-mindset has really really cost us our socio-economic development. This is our Achilles' heel, and you purposely advocate that we should make it worse.
> 
> F-16s or schools is a hard choice. You want us to have compounded it by choosing between Rafales and State. That is pretty idiotic, only if you can open your eyes to see it.



Sir, there can be a meaningful, thought provoking discussion here. Recently, we learnt Indonesia is going to buy 12 SU-35s through a barter agreement by exchanging food stuff. This is how you eat grass but get weapons at any cost. We could discuss this in Pakistan's context, but such a discussion cannot be conducted with that guy who will just label PAF as traitors and start ranting.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

So many of you disagree with me on so many of posts---.

One of them was about kill switches / electronic controls---.

Guess what my children---listen to this news---US navy destroyer hacked / sabotaged---.

Second accident within a very short time----what is the U S navy trying to hide----supposedly this thing also happened in the Black sea---sabotaged by the russians---

*USS McCain crash caused by cyber attack?*

*https://www.yahoo.com/finance/video/uss-mccain-crash-caused-cyber-113256276.html*

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

Some people here r discussing nawaz ,zardari ,voting style , common people mentality , few post back two seniors were fighting and thy were writing too much lengthy arguements to prove otherone point wrong 
Seems that this thread is not specifically related to f16 discussion it is much more than that


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## Bratva

*How do we get the Pakistan to behave better? The answer is we have leverage points over Pakistan that the strategy contemplates we will use. Ultimately whether they behave better or not is completely up to them," Anton said.

"They may calculate that it’s more important to, you know, remain allied with terrorists, it’s more important to give terrorists safe haven, it’s more important to do all the nasty things that they’ve been doing that we don’t like than it is to have a good relationship with the United States," he alleged.

"If so, that’s a choice that they will make and then we will make choices based on their choice," he warned.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1353218/b...-warns-us-national-security-council-spokesman
*
Be ready for F-16 support cutoff in near future. 
*
*

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## MastanKhan

Imadafridi said:


> Bro why do they even let you talk on this forum,you don't know thr ABC of defence procurement and here you are talking about treason.Never seen you mumble a single positive word in the years

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## syed_yusuf

it is high time to move away from f-16 and say buy buy to ah-1z. put in a strategy to star decommissioning f-16 and sell blk 52 in next 5 or so years. there is nothing F-16 can do that JFt blk3 or 2 cannot. by and large. Plus if need be go for interim j-10c/d in numbers to replace f-16 completely. 

i highly doubt that state department or us foreign office or pentagon share all that coming out of Mr. Trump. i highly doubt that he can act on his words.

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## MastanKhan

syed_yusuf said:


> it is high time to move away from f-16 and say buy buy to ah-1z. put in a strategy to star decommissioning f-16 and sell blk 52 in next 5 or so years. there is nothing F-16 can do that JFt blk3 or 2 cannot. by and large. Plus if need be go for interim j-10c/d in numbers to replace f-16 completely.
> 
> i highly doubt that state department or us foreign office or pentagon share all that coming out of Mr. Trump. i highly doubt that he can act on his words.



Hi,

It would take around 8-10 years to integrate the aesa radar and the newer EW warfare suite---HMD and the air to air missiles.



Bratva said:


> *How do we get the Pakistan to behave better? The answer is we have leverage points over Pakistan that the strategy contemplates we will use. Ultimately whether they behave better or not is completely up to them," Anton said.
> 
> "They may calculate that it’s more important to, you know, remain allied with terrorists, it’s more important to give terrorists safe haven, it’s more important to do all the nasty things that they’ve been doing that we don’t like than it is to have a good relationship with the United States," he alleged.
> 
> "If so, that’s a choice that they will make and then we will make choices based on their choice," he warned.
> 
> https://www.dawn.com/news/1353218/b...-warns-us-national-security-council-spokesman
> *
> Be ready for F-16 support cutoff in near future.



Hi,

And our Paf Air Chief was still in negotiation of 8 F16's---damnnnnn---.

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## Inception-06

Now after the new statements by the US, this F-16 topic in PDF will become history!

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## syed_yusuf

Ulla said:


> Now after the new statements by the US, this F-16 topic in PDF will become history!


I seriously hope so

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## Raider 21

Ulla said:


> Now after the new statements by the US, this F-16 topic in PDF will become history!


Yeah....PAF will have to give up their shiny patches, sidewinders, flight suits, G suits, helmets...and all other American gizmos that go in hand with them to their Chinese and French aircraft.



Bratva said:


> *How do we get the Pakistan to behave better? The answer is we have leverage points over Pakistan that the strategy contemplates we will use. Ultimately whether they behave better or not is completely up to them," Anton said.
> 
> "They may calculate that it’s more important to, you know, remain allied with terrorists, it’s more important to give terrorists safe haven, it’s more important to do all the nasty things that they’ve been doing that we don’t like than it is to have a good relationship with the United States," he alleged.
> 
> "If so, that’s a choice that they will make and then we will make choices based on their choice," he warned.
> 
> https://www.dawn.com/news/1353218/b...-warns-us-national-security-council-spokesman
> *
> Be ready for F-16 support cutoff in near future.


Heard that before...relations still stayed. They will never risk another Iran or Venezuela...plus Trump's ranting against Pakistan is once again for show.


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## CriticalThought

Knuckles said:


> Yeah....PAF will have to give up their shiny patches, sidewinders, flight suits, G suits, helmets...and all other American gizmos that go in hand with them to their Chinese and French aircraft.
> 
> 
> Heard that before...relations still stayed. They will never risk another Iran or Venezuela...plus Trump's ranting against Pakistan is once again for show.



Sir self-respect demands we don't let Trump put on a show at our expense. And that is if we don't see through the hand washing attempt at trivializing the gravity of the situation.

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## Raider 21

CriticalThought said:


> Sir self-respect demands we don't let Trump put on a show at our expense. And that is if we don't see through the hand washing attempt at trivializing the gravity of the situation.


Or they want a reaction from it....it works in favour for them.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It would take around 8-10 years to integrate the aesa radar and the newer EW warfare suite---HMD and the air to air missiles.


UAE did it in 3 years...


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## Chak Bamu

CriticalThought said:


> Sir, there can be a meaningful, thought provoking discussion here. Recently, we learnt Indonesia is going to buy 12 SU-35s through a barter agreement by exchanging food stuff. This is how you eat grass but get weapons at any cost. We could discuss this in Pakistan's context, but such a discussion cannot be conducted with that guy who will just label PAF as traitors and start ranting.



Despite being better off than Pakistan, Indonesia does great deals with their wider economy in mind. They not only got Jets via barter, they also improved their market access. Pakistan could learn from Indonesia. That is a great example BTW. Thanks for sharing.

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## Raider 21

Chak Bamu said:


> Despite being better off than Pakistan, Indonesia does great deals with their wider economy in mind. They not only got Jets via barter, they also improved their market access. Pakistan could *learn *from Indonesia. That is a great example BTW. Thanks for sharing.


Learning.....that's a good one...

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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> Or they want a reaction from it....it works in favour for them.
> 
> 
> UAE did it in 3 years...



Hi,

From your lips to God's ears---it would be fantastic if it happened in that shortof a time---but it is not going to happen.

That product was american---if you are talking about the BLK60---all systems of that aircraft---built and manufactured by a proven industrial base---all weapons and weapons systems manufactured by known and proven manufacturers already in service---.

You are forgetting---pakistan is patially manufacturing this aircraft---a brand new fire control radar and EW warfare suite---a new HMD---new BVR and off bore sight missile---and then to top it off---a brand new aircraft---the BLK3---.

Each and every weapon to be integrated---all the bugs removed---an operational manual written---technicians trained---.

Pilots---they will have to un-learn flying with the conventional radar and then learn the aesa radar---.

I was very conservative last time---mentioned 6-10 years for BLK1---and it still is not fully integrated.

The BLK 3---realistically---8 to 12 years at least---.

Last time also---many came jumping on me---they were proved wrong---but none apologized---.

One of those very senior TT member---who I believe is a doctor as well---now uses my integration prophecy JF17 shamelessly---.



syed_yusuf said:


> i highly doubt that state department or us foreign office or pentagon share all that coming out of Mr. Trump. i highly doubt that he can act on his words.



Hi,

What would you do if he does---? You pakistanis have been all talk and have done nothing except for in-fighting.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> From your lips to God's ears---it would be fantastic if it happened in that shortof a time.
> 
> You are forgetting---pakistan is manufacturing this aircraft---a brand new fire control radar and EW warfare suite---a new HMD---new BVR and off bore sight missile---and then to top it off---a brand new aircraft---the BLK3---.
> 
> Each and every weapon to be integrated---all the bugs removed---an operational manual written---technicians trained---.
> 
> Pilots---they will have to un-learn flying with the conventional radar and then learn the aesa radar---.
> 
> I was very conservative last time---mentioned 6-10 years for BLK1---and it still is not fully integrated.
> 
> The BLK 3---realistically---8 to 12 years at least---.
> 
> *Last time also---like of you came jumping on me---they were proved wrong---but none apologized---.*
> 
> One of those very senior TT member---who I believe is a doctor as well---uses my integration prophecy JF17 shamelessly---.


I was talking about the F-16 Block 60. Their pilots and technicians were directly trained on that platform by the US ANG and Lockheed Martin, both in and out of country. 

And I apologize to you for whatever has been done to you on my behalf if my comment upset your day. Please accept my apology in any way you can.

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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> I was talking about the F-16 Block 60. Their pilots and technicians were directly trained on that platform by the US ANG and Lockheed Martin, both in and out of country.
> 
> And I apologize to you for whatever has been done to you on my behalf if my comment upset your day. Please accept my apology in any way you can.



Hi,

When you give me an opportunity to re-emphasize and further explain my point---I am appreciative of that.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When you give me an opportunity to re-emphasize and further explain my point---I am appreciative of that.


Will do and I understand.

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## Dazzler

This chap got two EF Typhoons




(simulation) during Red Flag.

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## Raider 21

Dazzler said:


> This chap got two EF Typhoons
> View attachment 420717
> (simulation) during Red Flag.


JHMCS while at Red Flag in an F-16A back at 2010 ??? Or is it the same driver but at another time ??

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## Arsalan

Dazzler said:


> This chap got two EF Typhoons
> View attachment 420717
> (simulation) during Red Flag.


Close range Combat that was, right?


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## Talon

Knuckles said:


> JHMCS while at Red Flag in an F-16A back at 2010 ??? Or is it the same driver but at another time ??





Dazzler said:


> This chap got two EF Typhoons
> View attachment 420717
> (simulation) during Red Flag.


I think it was Sqn Ldr Tariq Waheed and not Tahir mehmood and he took out typhoons in Anatolian Eagle and not RF..and he's assigned to Arrows while Falcons participated in RF 16

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## Dazzler

Hodor said:


> I think it was Sqn Ldr Tariq Waheed and not Tahir mehmood and he took out typhoons in Anatolian Eagle and not RF..and he's assigned to Arrows while Falcons participated in RF 16
> View attachment 420733



Read again, I said Red Flag, not Anatolian Eagle. A different fellow took the honors at a different occasion. It was a WVR engagement. Goes on to show that the falcon is still a lethal adversary in the hands of capable jockey.
Italian EFs made their debut at RF in 2016.

https://www.eurofighter.com/news-and-events/2016/03/italian-eurofighter-typhoons-make-red-flag-debut

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## Talon

Dazzler said:


> Read again, I said Red Flag, not Anatolian Eagle. A different fellow took the honors at a different occasion. It was a WVR engagement. Goes on to show that the falcon is still a lethal adversary in the hands of capable jockey.
> Italian EFs made their debut at RF in 2016.


I know u are talking about a different guy but the fact is Paf f16s and Typhoons never participated in the same RF-***..
In 2010 Paf was part of 4th section of the exercise and no Typhoons were in that section of the exercises..
In 2016 Paf was part of same 4th section of the exercise and this time too no Typhoons took part..Italians were not part of 16-4 they were in 16-2
So u have got some misunderstanding about the kills.. Paf took out typhoons in anatolian eagle only and the pilot was SL Tariq Waheed
I can give u the links to the participants if u still arent satisfied..

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## Inception-06

Knuckles said:


> Yeah....PAF will have to give up their shiny patches, sidewinders, flight suits, G suits, helmets...and all other American gizmos that go in hand with them to their Chinese and French aircraft.



Sidewinders and F-16 cant save us from the mighty IAF and USAF, having them or giving them away is the same for me!


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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

Ulla said:


> Sidewinders and F-16 cant save us from the mighty IAF and USAF, having them or giving them away is the same for me!



Well nothing is mighty we can defend ourself but i think yur point can be true in a sense that we have 76 or 78 f16s out of which 85% or lets say 80% is their availabilty rate and in the time of tension or war , amerca will more likely cut spare parts supply so as a result ,f16 availability will further reduced against enemy aircrafts so thats y we should rely more on jf17 rather than f16s in future

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> From your lips to God's ears---it would be fantastic if it happened in that shortof a time---but it is not going to happen.
> 
> That product was american---if you are talking about the BLK60---all systems of that aircraft---built and manufactured by a proven industrial base---all weapons and weapons systems manufactured by known and proven manufacturers already in service---.
> 
> You are forgetting---pakistan is patially manufacturing this aircraft---a brand new fire control radar and EW warfare suite---a new HMD---new BVR and off bore sight missile---and then to top it off---a brand new aircraft---the BLK3---.
> 
> Each and every weapon to be integrated---all the bugs removed---an operational manual written---technicians trained---.
> 
> Pilots---they will have to un-learn flying with the conventional radar and then learn the aesa radar---.
> 
> I was very conservative last time---mentioned 6-10 years for BLK1---and it still is not fully integrated.
> 
> The BLK 3---realistically---8 to 12 years at least---.
> 
> Last time also---many came jumping on me---they were proved wrong---but none apologized---.
> 
> One of those very senior TT member---who I believe is a doctor as well---now uses my integration prophecy JF17 shamelessly---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> What would you do if he does---? You pakistanis have been all talk and have done nothing except for in-fighting.


There is also a factor forgotten by many regarding the PAF JF-17 integration. 

Pre Zardari the PAF was on an accelerated cycle with training picking up and JF-17s planned to be in the hundred by now. 

We don't appreciate(if that is such a term) how bad that time was for Pakistani Military and PakisTan in general. 

By 2011, the JF program was pushed back 3-4 years- personnel were not getting flight time,loan repayments were not being made, even pensions were on the edge.

That was the PAF, there were relatives of mune who whilst otherwise with surging corporations during Musharrafs time were unable to pay people for 2 months during Zardari.

That government literally stripped Pakistani institutions and the economy dry like a chicken wing for five years. They left just enough so the economy could trundle along to their next stripping cycle.

There is no more person deserving of hatred by Pakistanis than Asif Ali Zardari and his cohorts

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> There is also a factor forgotten by many regarding the PAF JF-17 integration.
> 
> Pre Zardari the PAF was on an accelerated cycle with training picking up and JF-17s planned to be in the hundred by now.
> 
> We don't appreciate(if that is such a term) how bad that time was for Pakistani Military and PakisTan in general.
> 
> By 2011, the JF program was pushed back 3-4 years- personnel were not getting flight time,loan repayments were not being made, even pensions were on the edge.
> 
> That was the PAF, there were relatives of mune who whilst otherwise with surging corporations during Musharrafs time were unable to pay people for 2 months during Zardari.
> 
> That government literally stripped Pakistani institutions and the economy dry like a chicken wing for five years. They left just enough so the economy could trundle along to their next stripping cycle.
> 
> There is no more person deserving of hatred by Pakistanis than Asif Ali Zardari and his cohorts


He also managed to scuttle the Type 214 and MILGEM deals. Berlin had actually prepared a payment plan for the Type 214 around the time Zardari came into power, but the attention then shifted to the DCNS Marlin, and then to nothing at all. Not to mention the eventual canning of 18 optional F-16s, 36 FC-20s, grinding halt of al-Khalid MBT production, etc.

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## razgriz19

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> He also managed to scuttle the Type 214 and MILGEM deals. Berlin had actually prepared a payment plan for the Type 214 around the time Zardari came into power, but the attention then shifted to the DCNS Marlin, and then to nothing at all. Not to mention the eventual canning of 18 optional F-16s, 36 FC-20s, grinding halt of al-Khalid MBT production, etc.



Mushy cancelled the optional 18 F-16s to divert funds to earth quake affected areas


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

razgriz19 said:


> Mushy cancelled the optional 18 F-16s to divert funds to earth quake affected areas


IIRC the contract for the 18 + 18 F-16s was finalized in 2006 - i.e. well after the earthquake - and following the diversion of funds (which also led to 2 fewer Erieye AEW&C). Before the earthquake, PAF officials were quoted saying that they planned on as many as 55 F-16 Block-52, but this was reduced to 18 + 18 optional jets. The option clause expired around 2009-2010.


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## Ahmet Pasha

I may sound like a cocohead who stand on intersections and warns people that tomorrow is the last day.
But these people get recruited into secret orders or intelligence networks. The likes of Altaf Hussain, Zardari, etc etc. 
I remember a while back a former General relayed the story of how he was approached by Freemasons of US Army. He had read up on freemasonry and knew all about their "new world order" so he declined despite the US ARMY freemasons offering him grand prizes and riches of unimaginable proportions.

I mean Altar for one does has proven links to hostile intelligence outfits.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> He also managed to scuttle the Type 214 and MILGEM deals. Berlin had actually prepared a payment plan for the Type 214 around the time Zardari came into power, but the attention then shifted to the DCNS Marlin, and then to nothing at all. Not to mention the eventual canning of 18 optional F-16s, 36 FC-20s, grinding halt of al-Khalid MBT production, etc.


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## Raider 21

Ulla said:


> Sidewinders and F-16 cant save us from the mighty IAF and USAF, having them or giving them away is the same for me!


Absolutely....the mullahs will save you...


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## CriticalThought

Oscar said:


> There is also a factor forgotten by many regarding the PAF JF-17 integration.
> 
> Pre Zardari the PAF was on an accelerated cycle with training picking up and JF-17s planned to be in the hundred by now.
> 
> We don't appreciate(if that is such a term) how bad that time was for Pakistani Military and PakisTan in general.
> 
> By 2011, the JF program was pushed back 3-4 years- personnel were not getting flight time,loan repayments were not being made, even pensions were on the edge.
> 
> That was the PAF, there were relatives of mune who whilst otherwise with surging corporations during Musharrafs time were unable to pay people for 2 months during Zardari.
> 
> That government literally stripped Pakistani institutions and the economy dry like a chicken wing for five years. They left just enough so the economy could trundle along to their next stripping cycle.
> 
> There is no more person deserving of hatred by Pakistanis than Asif Ali Zardari and his cohorts



I refuse to believe this could have been achieved without a nefarious civil/army collusion. Let us remember that Zardari was the product of Musharraf's NRO, a parting stab by the traitor. He gathered together the very worst politicians from around the world, baptized them so they were born again and sinless, and let them run rampant. Today, he must sit back and laugh at his masterstroke.

What is even more frightening is that we know full well what Zardari did, yet he comes and goes as he pleases, with no fear of retribution.

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## Inception-06

Knuckles said:


> Absolutely....the mullahs will save you...




Absolutely not! Only Allah the Almighty and * the Nuclear sword* (Strategic Forces of Pakistan) will save all of us !

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## CriticalThought

Ulla said:


> Absolutely not! Only Allah the Almighty and * the Nuclear sword* (Strategic Forces of Pakistan) will save all of us !



No, only Allah the Almighty will save us. But He requires us to use the intellect He has granted us, to the fullest extent, and then pray to Him.

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## MastanKhan

razgriz19 said:


> Mushy cancelled the optional 18 F-16s to divert funds to earth quake affected areas



Hi,

That is a lie---. The ACM of Paf diverted the funds to the earthquake---. He told Gen Mush that the aircraft are not needed---there is no threat from india anymore.


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## razgriz19

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is a lie---. The ACM of Paf diverted the funds to the earthquake---. He told Gen Mush that the aircraft are not needed---there is no threat from india anymore.


And that was the right thing to do

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## Windjammer

Dazzler said:


> Read again, I said Red Flag, not Anatolian Eagle. A different fellow took the honors at a different occasion. It was a WVR engagement. Goes on to show that the falcon is still a lethal adversary in the hands of capable jockey.
> Italian EFs made their debut at RF in 2016.
> 
> https://www.eurofighter.com/news-and-events/2016/03/italian-eurofighter-typhoons-make-red-flag-debut


Dear, the Typhoon kills were achieved in 2008 Anatolian Eagle. 
The pilot who scored those kills later on went to win the coveted Sher Afghan trophy.

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## The Accountant

CriticalThought said:


> I refuse to believe this could have been achieved without a nefarious civil/army collusion. Let us remember that Zardari was the product of Musharraf's NRO, a parting stab by the traitor. He gathered together the very worst politicians from around the world, baptized them so they were born again and sinless, and let them run rampant. Today, he must sit back and laugh at his masterstroke.
> 
> What is even more frightening is that we know full well what Zardari did, yet he comes and goes as he pleases, with no fear of retribution.


Sir g tussi great ho ... i think it is a high time to start of thread on zardari ... a thread higjlighting zardari cases ... unlike NS his corruption out in the open starting from Khanani and kalia, including dewan farooq group, liyari, fisheries, bahria town, china cutting, ozair baloch,,, lets make a thread and share the info we have ..

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## HRK

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is a lie---. The ACM of Paf diverted the funds to the earthquake---. He told Gen Mush that the aircraft are not needed---there is no threat from india anymore.


Sir funds were never made available to PAF till that time as no agreement till that day was reached b/w Pakistan & USA for the purchase of F-16 the only thing that happened in this regards till 5 October 2005 was the US *approval* for the sales (*again not the agreement*) & Musharraf on 5 October 2005 during his visit to Margala Tower Islamabad announced the diversion of F-16 funds to earthquake affectees.

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## SQ8

CriticalThought said:


> I refuse to believe this could have been achieved without a nefarious civil/army collusion. Let us remember that Zardari was the product of Musharraf's NRO, a parting stab by the traitor. He gathered together the very worst politicians from around the world, baptized them so they were born again and sinless, and let them run rampant. Today, he must sit back and laugh at his masterstroke.
> 
> What is even more frightening is that we know full well what Zardari did, yet he comes and goes as he pleases, with no fear of retribution.


That is our failure as a people and no conspiracy.

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## Stephen Cohen

@CriticalThought @HRK @MastanKhan @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

*In 2008* ; Pakistan had entered an IMF program which
put a brake on all acquisitons programmes
South Asia


IMF COUNTRY FOCUS
*IMF Survey: Pakistan Gets $7.6 Billion Loan from IMF*
IMF Survey online

November 24, 2008


Measures to stabilize economy while protecting the poor
Pakistan seeking additional donor support to improve safety net
Tightening of monetary conditions will help combat inflation
The IMF's Executive Board has approved a $7.6 billion loan for Pakistan to support its program to stabilize and rebuild the economy while expanding its social safety net to protect the poor.





A worker in an iron foundry in Karachi. Pakistan will seek additional support to improve social safety nets (photo: Mohammad Zargham/PPI)

*Related Links*

Pakistan and the IMF
Outlook for region
Asian growth to slow sharply
IMF Pakistan website
World leaders combat crisis



The 23-month Stand-By loan will enable the government to implement a stabilization program that envisages a significant tightening of fiscal and monetary policies to bring down inflation and reduce the external current account deficit to more sustainable levels. The program seeks to address current macroeconomic imbalances while protecting the poor and preserving social stability in the South Asian country of 170 million people.

"By providing large financial support to Pakistan, the IMF is sending a strong signal to the donor community about the country's improved macroeconomic prospects," said IMF Deputy Managing Director Takatoshi Kato.

Pakistan's economic program

"The Government's program has two objectives: first, to restore overall economic stability and confidence through a tightening of macroeconomic policies, and second, to do so in a manner that ensures social stability and adequate support for the poor during the adjustment process," said Juan Carlos Di Tata, the IMF mission chief to Pakistan.

The Pakistan authorities have already taken some difficult steps to achieve these objectives: energy subsidies have been cut and the interest rate has been increased to tighten monetary policy. The authorities' program for the coming 24 months envisages a number of additional steps:



• The fiscal deficit, excluding grants, will be brought to down from 7.4 percent of GDP in 2007/08 (starting July 1) to a more manageable 4.2 percent in 2008/09 and 3.3 percent in 2009/10—in line with what it was three years ago. This fiscal adjustment will be primarily achieved by phasing out energy subsidies and strengthening revenue mobilization through tax policy and administration measures. The reduction in expenditures will create room to increase spending on the social safety net.

• The State Bank Of Pakistan (SBP) will act on monetary policy to build its international reserves, bring down inflation to 6 percent in 2010, and eliminate central bank financing of the government. The program includes measures to improve monetary management and enhance the SBP's bank resolution capacity, and avoid the use of public resources to support the stock market.

• Expenditure on the social safety net will be increased to protect the poorthrough both cash transfers and targeted electricity subsidies. The fiscal program for 2008/09 envisages an increase in spending on the social safety net of 0.6 percentage points of GDP to 0.9 percent of GDP. Pakistan will also work with the World Bank to prepare a more comprehensive and better targeted social safety net program.
Contribution of the IMF

The financing from the IMF will help to ease the path of adjustment and will provide a strong signal of support to the international community. Of the $7.6 billion loan, $3.1 billion will be made available by the IMF immediately to strengthen the reserve position. And the regular monitoring of the economy by the IMF will show how the macroeconomic objectives set by the Government are being met and whether they need to be adjusted in the light of changing circumstances.

"It is important to point out that the program—and its conditionality—is based on the targets and measures that the authorities have themselves set for the next two years. The IMF is convinced that the best implemented programs are the ones that are home grown and fully owned by the country," Di Tata said.

Alongside the IMF's financial support, there is an urgent need to mobilize additional donor support to strengthen Pakistan's resilience to potential shocks, help finance the expanded social safety net, and allow for higher spending on development programs. "The Fund stands ready to participate in any donor meeting to provide the economic and financial analysis that could underpin expanded support."

Implementation key to success

Success of the program could be affected by a number of risks. They arise from security and implementation uncertainties, a more severe-than-anticipated slowdown in economic activity in trading partners, and lower-than-expected private capital inflows.

"Sustained and forceful implementation will be key to the success of the program," Di Tata stated.

Previous gains

From the early 2000s to mid-2007, Pakistan's macroeconomic performance was robust. During the period 2000/01-2004/05, when Pakistan successfully implemented two IMF-supported programs, real GDP growth averaged 5 percent a year with relative price stability. The improved macroeconomic performance enabled the country to reenter international capital markets in the mid-2000s.

*The macroeconomic situation, however, deteriorated significantly in 2007/08 and the first four months of 2008/09 on account of domestic and external factors. Adverse security developments, large exogenous price shocks (oil and food), and the recent global financial turmoil buffeted the economy.

*
https://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2015/09/28/04/53/socar112408c

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## The Accountant

Oscar said:


> That is our failure as a people and no conspiracy.


Thats why we need to establish strong systems and not to rely on individuals including IK ...

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## Raider 21

Stephen Cohen said:


> @CriticalThought @HRK @MastanKhan @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> *In 2008* ; Pakistan had entered an IMF program which
> put a brake on all acquisitons programmes
> South Asia
> 
> 
> IMF COUNTRY FOCUS
> *IMF Survey: Pakistan Gets $7.6 Billion Loan from IMF*
> IMF Survey online
> 
> November 24, 2008
> 
> 
> Measures to stabilize economy while protecting the poor
> Pakistan seeking additional donor support to improve safety net
> Tightening of monetary conditions will help combat inflation
> The IMF's Executive Board has approved a $7.6 billion loan for Pakistan to support its program to stabilize and rebuild the economy while expanding its social safety net to protect the poor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A worker in an iron foundry in Karachi. Pakistan will seek additional support to improve social safety nets (photo: Mohammad Zargham/PPI)
> 
> *Related Links*
> 
> Pakistan and the IMF
> Outlook for region
> Asian growth to slow sharply
> IMF Pakistan website
> World leaders combat crisis
> 
> 
> 
> The 23-month Stand-By loan will enable the government to implement a stabilization program that envisages a significant tightening of fiscal and monetary policies to bring down inflation and reduce the external current account deficit to more sustainable levels. The program seeks to address current macroeconomic imbalances while protecting the poor and preserving social stability in the South Asian country of 170 million people.
> 
> "By providing large financial support to Pakistan, the IMF is sending a strong signal to the donor community about the country's improved macroeconomic prospects," said IMF Deputy Managing Director Takatoshi Kato.
> 
> Pakistan's economic program
> 
> "The Government's program has two objectives: first, to restore overall economic stability and confidence through a tightening of macroeconomic policies, and second, to do so in a manner that ensures social stability and adequate support for the poor during the adjustment process," said Juan Carlos Di Tata, the IMF mission chief to Pakistan.
> 
> The Pakistan authorities have already taken some difficult steps to achieve these objectives: energy subsidies have been cut and the interest rate has been increased to tighten monetary policy. The authorities' program for the coming 24 months envisages a number of additional steps:
> 
> 
> 
> • The fiscal deficit, excluding grants, will be brought to down from 7.4 percent of GDP in 2007/08 (starting July 1) to a more manageable 4.2 percent in 2008/09 and 3.3 percent in 2009/10—in line with what it was three years ago. This fiscal adjustment will be primarily achieved by phasing out energy subsidies and strengthening revenue mobilization through tax policy and administration measures. The reduction in expenditures will create room to increase spending on the social safety net.
> 
> • The State Bank Of Pakistan (SBP) will act on monetary policy to build its international reserves, bring down inflation to 6 percent in 2010, and eliminate central bank financing of the government. The program includes measures to improve monetary management and enhance the SBP's bank resolution capacity, and avoid the use of public resources to support the stock market.
> 
> • Expenditure on the social safety net will be increased to protect the poorthrough both cash transfers and targeted electricity subsidies. The fiscal program for 2008/09 envisages an increase in spending on the social safety net of 0.6 percentage points of GDP to 0.9 percent of GDP. Pakistan will also work with the World Bank to prepare a more comprehensive and better targeted social safety net program.
> Contribution of the IMF
> 
> The financing from the IMF will help to ease the path of adjustment and will provide a strong signal of support to the international community. Of the $7.6 billion loan, $3.1 billion will be made available by the IMF immediately to strengthen the reserve position. And the regular monitoring of the economy by the IMF will show how the macroeconomic objectives set by the Government are being met and whether they need to be adjusted in the light of changing circumstances.
> 
> "It is important to point out that the program—and its conditionality—is based on the targets and measures that the authorities have themselves set for the next two years. The IMF is convinced that the best implemented programs are the ones that are home grown and fully owned by the country," Di Tata said.
> 
> Alongside the IMF's financial support, there is an urgent need to mobilize additional donor support to strengthen Pakistan's resilience to potential shocks, help finance the expanded social safety net, and allow for higher spending on development programs. "The Fund stands ready to participate in any donor meeting to provide the economic and financial analysis that could underpin expanded support."
> 
> Implementation key to success
> 
> Success of the program could be affected by a number of risks. They arise from security and implementation uncertainties, a more severe-than-anticipated slowdown in economic activity in trading partners, and lower-than-expected private capital inflows.
> 
> "Sustained and forceful implementation will be key to the success of the program," Di Tata stated.
> 
> Previous gains
> 
> From the early 2000s to mid-2007, Pakistan's macroeconomic performance was robust. During the period 2000/01-2004/05, when Pakistan successfully implemented two IMF-supported programs, real GDP growth averaged 5 percent a year with relative price stability. The improved macroeconomic performance enabled the country to reenter international capital markets in the mid-2000s.
> 
> *The macroeconomic situation, however, deteriorated significantly in 2007/08 and the first four months of 2008/09 on account of domestic and external factors. Adverse security developments, large exogenous price shocks (oil and food), and the recent global financial turmoil buffeted the economy.
> 
> *
> https://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2015/09/28/04/53/socar112408c


http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/india

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## sparten

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> He also managed to scuttle the Type 214 and MILGEM deals. Berlin had actually prepared a payment plan for the Type 214 around the time Zardari came into power, but the attention then shifted to the DCNS Marlin, and then to nothing at all. Not to mention the eventual canning of 18 optional F-16s, 36 FC-20s, grinding halt of al-Khalid MBT production, etc.


I bow to no one in my dislike of AAZ, but 2008 was the worst financial crises since 1929. It was also the start of the major Western border commitments. There was no way we were going to be able to purchase those weapon system or anyone was going to extend credit to us to do so, there was no credit in Europe or N America to give. Every defence dollar that we have went to sustaining the now very high op tempo and getting the equipment we needed for that.

We were not the only ones whose wish list got canned. The RAF fell behind in Typhoon purchases, the F35 was punted forward a decade.

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## Stephen Cohen

Knuckles said:


> http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/india



The point being discussed was why did Zardari put a halt to all acquisitions

It was because in 2008 ; Pakistan had to enter an IMF programme

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## MastanKhan

sparten said:


> I bow to no one in my dislike of AAZ, but 2008 was the worst financial crises since 1929. It was also the start of the major Western border commitments. There was no way we were going to be able to purchase those weapon system or anyone was going to extend credit to us to do so, there was no credit in Europe or N America to give. Every defence dollar that we have went to sustaining the now very high op tempo and getting the equipment we needed for that.
> 
> We were not the only ones whose wish list got canned. The RAF fell behind in Typhoon purchases, the F35 was punted forward a decade.




Hi,

For that very reason---if you are living on the margin---in any major weapons purchase---time is of essence---.

Avail the first available opportunity in a timely expeditious manner.



razgriz19 said:


> And that was the right thing to do



Youngman,

Don't cut your nose to spite me---or rile me up.

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## Stephen Cohen

MastanKhan said:


> Youngman,
> 
> Don't cut your nose to spite me---or rile me up.



Financial allocations are made by the PRESIDENT 
Not Air chiefs 

So Gen Musharraf should be blamed for PAF 's funds being directed elsewhere

The BUCK stops with the PRESIDENT

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## HRK

Stephen Cohen said:


> *Financial allocations are made by the PRESIDENT *


Is it necessary to poke your nose everywhere & prove your idiocy every time .... plz a sincere advise don't bother to make 'such' comments ....



Stephen Cohen said:


> @CriticalThought @HRK @MastanKhan @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> *In 2008* ; Pakistan had entered an IMF program which
> put a brake on all acquisitons programmes
> South Asia
> 
> 
> IMF COUNTRY FOCUS
> *IMF Survey: Pakistan Gets $7.6 Billion Loan from IMF*
> IMF Survey online
> 
> November 24, 2008
> 
> 
> Measures to stabilize economy while protecting the poor
> Pakistan seeking additional donor support to improve safety net
> Tightening of monetary conditions will help combat inflation
> The IMF's Executive Board has approved a $7.6 billion loan for Pakistan to support its program to stabilize and rebuild the economy while expanding its social safety net to protect the poor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A worker in an iron foundry in Karachi. Pakistan will seek additional support to improve social safety nets (photo: Mohammad Zargham/PPI)
> 
> *Related Links*
> 
> Pakistan and the IMF
> Outlook for region
> Asian growth to slow sharply
> IMF Pakistan website
> World leaders combat crisis
> 
> 
> 
> The 23-month Stand-By loan will enable the government to implement a stabilization program that envisages a significant tightening of fiscal and monetary policies to bring down inflation and reduce the external current account deficit to more sustainable levels. The program seeks to address current macroeconomic imbalances while protecting the poor and preserving social stability in the South Asian country of 170 million people.
> 
> "By providing large financial support to Pakistan, the IMF is sending a strong signal to the donor community about the country's improved macroeconomic prospects," said IMF Deputy Managing Director Takatoshi Kato.
> 
> Pakistan's economic program
> 
> "The Government's program has two objectives: first, to restore overall economic stability and confidence through a tightening of macroeconomic policies, and second, to do so in a manner that ensures social stability and adequate support for the poor during the adjustment process," said Juan Carlos Di Tata, the IMF mission chief to Pakistan.
> 
> The Pakistan authorities have already taken some difficult steps to achieve these objectives: energy subsidies have been cut and the interest rate has been increased to tighten monetary policy. The authorities' program for the coming 24 months envisages a number of additional steps:
> 
> 
> 
> • The fiscal deficit, excluding grants, will be brought to down from 7.4 percent of GDP in 2007/08 (starting July 1) to a more manageable 4.2 percent in 2008/09 and 3.3 percent in 2009/10—in line with what it was three years ago. This fiscal adjustment will be primarily achieved by phasing out energy subsidies and strengthening revenue mobilization through tax policy and administration measures. The reduction in expenditures will create room to increase spending on the social safety net.
> 
> • The State Bank Of Pakistan (SBP) will act on monetary policy to build its international reserves, bring down inflation to 6 percent in 2010, and eliminate central bank financing of the government. The program includes measures to improve monetary management and enhance the SBP's bank resolution capacity, and avoid the use of public resources to support the stock market.
> 
> • Expenditure on the social safety net will be increased to protect the poorthrough both cash transfers and targeted electricity subsidies. The fiscal program for 2008/09 envisages an increase in spending on the social safety net of 0.6 percentage points of GDP to 0.9 percent of GDP. Pakistan will also work with the World Bank to prepare a more comprehensive and better targeted social safety net program.
> Contribution of the IMF
> 
> The financing from the IMF will help to ease the path of adjustment and will provide a strong signal of support to the international community. Of the $7.6 billion loan, $3.1 billion will be made available by the IMF immediately to strengthen the reserve position. And the regular monitoring of the economy by the IMF will show how the macroeconomic objectives set by the Government are being met and whether they need to be adjusted in the light of changing circumstances.
> 
> "It is important to point out that the program—and its conditionality—is based on the targets and measures that the authorities have themselves set for the next two years. The IMF is convinced that the best implemented programs are the ones that are home grown and fully owned by the country," Di Tata said.
> 
> Alongside the IMF's financial support, there is an urgent need to mobilize additional donor support to strengthen Pakistan's resilience to potential shocks, help finance the expanded social safety net, and allow for higher spending on development programs. "The Fund stands ready to participate in any donor meeting to provide the economic and financial analysis that could underpin expanded support."
> 
> Implementation key to success
> 
> Success of the program could be affected by a number of risks. They arise from security and implementation uncertainties, a more severe-than-anticipated slowdown in economic activity in trading partners, and lower-than-expected private capital inflows.
> 
> "Sustained and forceful implementation will be key to the success of the program," Di Tata stated.
> 
> Previous gains
> 
> From the early 2000s to mid-2007, Pakistan's macroeconomic performance was robust. During the period 2000/01-2004/05, when Pakistan successfully implemented two IMF-supported programs, real GDP growth averaged 5 percent a year with relative price stability. The improved macroeconomic performance enabled the country to reenter international capital markets in the mid-2000s.
> 
> *The macroeconomic situation, however, deteriorated significantly in 2007/08 and the first four months of 2008/09 on account of domestic and external factors. Adverse security developments, large exogenous price shocks (oil and food), and the recent global financial turmoil buffeted the economy.
> 
> *
> https://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2015/09/28/04/53/socar112408c



the topic we are discussing belongs to 2005 ... not 2008

secondly plz develop your understanding IMF does not advise (dictates) about SPECIFIC issues or segments outside the domain of economy .... its always the choices of government which make decisions to address the *macro* economic conditions matching the IMF standards

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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer

*A PAF F-16 performing on air force day.
*

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## Taha Samad

Do MLU F-16s have 4 Hardpoints on each wing? I seems so in the screen caps below(84704):











@16:45

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## TaimiKhan

Taha Samad said:


> Do MLU F-16s have 4 Hardpoints on each wing? I seems so in the screen caps below(84704):
> 
> View attachment 424371
> 
> 
> View attachment 424372
> 
> 
> @16:45


F16s always had 4 hardpoints under each wing. 1 under belly and 2 under chins for pods.

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## umair86pk

Only early production Block 1 had 7 hard points. Block 10 introduced the chin points.


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## MastanKhan

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/tesla-flips-switch-increase-range-232915375.html

Hi,

For those " superstars "---who claimed there are no kill switches on the F16's---.

See what Tesla does remotely to their cars during the hurricane.

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

MastanKhan said:


> https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/tesla-flips-switch-increase-range-232915375.html
> 
> Hi,
> 
> For those " superstars "---who claimed there are no kill switches on the F16's---.
> 
> See what Tesla does remotely to their cars during the hurricane.



Amercans definitely have installed such things there was also an intervw of a pilot which i read somewhere who told about turkish f16 crashed and then thy latter found some hidden tracker device in the wreckage of crashed aircraft , thy r soo insecure that thy didnt allowed paf pilots to train turkish pilots even paf is also operating block52s which r also pretty advanced.besides f16 is their work horse, there own versions may be different from export ones but thy can likely do such things in my opinion

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## fatman17

F-16 Fighting Falcon News
History comes to a close





September 15, 2017 (by Bjorn) - The last F-16 to be produced at the United States Air Force plant nr. 4 has been finished and will be delivered to the Iraqi air force in early 2018.





IqAF F-16C block 52 #1636 is parked inside a hangar at Lockheed Fort Worth. This aircraft is a milestone since it concludes almost 40 years of consequent F-16 production at the plant. [USAF photo]


The jet was part of a 36 aircraft order by Iraq. Since Lockheed needs more space to produce the brand-new F-35 fighter, it has decided to move the production of the F-16 - if new orders would come to fruition - to Greenville, South Carolina.

This decision ends production of the most popular Western fighter after more than four decades. Since December 13th, 1973, when the first F-16 prototype #72-1567 rolled out of the factory and September of 2017 exactly 3640 F-16s were build at the site. Untill 1992 the F-16 was built by General Dynamics and afterwards by Lockheed (who took over General Dynamics' Fort Worth Convair division in that year).

Some remarkable facts. Over an almost 44-year stretch, a total of 3640 F-16s were produced. The most F-16s ever to produced in a year was 286 airframes, which happened in 1987. This equates to more than one F-16 per day being produced at that time. Since that hayday, production dwindled over the years, but always kept a steady pace. Although production stops at Fort Worth, the F-16 keeps to be an attractive fighter, recently winning an order for 19 additional airframes for Bahrain. These will be built in Greenville from late 2019, early 2020 onwards. 

So the story continues........

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## khanasifm



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## Signalian

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 426507


if PAF can send pilots then TuAF can send few F-16's on lease in return to conduct WOT ops 24/7 without apprehension of spares. We have brother nations (TuAF, EAF, Morocco,Indonesia, Bahrain, UAEAF, Oman etc) flying F-16's but still no assistance to beef up F-16 numbers in PAF temporarily for surface strike missions.

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## ziaulislam

Signalian said:


> if PAF can send pilots then TuAF can send few F-16's on lease in return to conduct WOT ops 24/7 without apprehension of spares. We have brother nations (TuAF, EAF, Morocco,Indonesia, Bahrain, UAEAF, Oman etc) flying F-16's but still no assistance to beef up F-16 numbers in PAF temporarily for surface strike missions.


well no botherly nation would help you fight against a nation/india who have botherly realtionship with all of the above

just because pakistanis have botherly feelings for all those countries doesnt mean that they have so too.

the story on f-16s is pretty much close, the top poltical brass is going to US bidding no matter what and US knows this, its more going to be stick to the pakistanis and carrots to politicians pocket

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

I counted close to 250 F16 side by side parked on the tarmac in 1985 at Hill AFB

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I counted close to 250 F16 side by side parked on the tarmac in 1985 at Hill AFB


The first squadron to get operational on F-16s were based there at Hill AFB (now moving to Holloman AFB). They had about 3 squadrons, all active-duty with one of them tasked initially to carry out the first conversion courses (before MacDill AFB took over that role, followed by moving to Luke AFB) and the Air Force Reserve squadron. The first Pakistani batch (6 pilots) got their training done at Hill AFB, second batch (4 pilots) did their training at Luke AFB.

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## fatman17

30 Sep 2006 
Pakistan orders 18 F-16s (Peace Drive).

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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> 30 Sep 2006
> Pakistan orders 18 F-16s (Peace Drive).


fool me once shame on you
fool me twice shame on me


R.I.P 

F-16 you served us well

a foolish decision indeed to buy f-16s in 1980s when we had fighters blocked in 60s, than 90s and than even during the era of early bush admin when it was repeatedly blocked yet a huge amount of money was poured in to 18 new jets, with no upgrades in site this was indeed a foolish decision

you never purchase an aircraft with no mid life upgrade plans in sight

well army is doing the same with Zulus guess they never learn what happned with the cobras in 1990s

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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> fool me once shame on you
> fool me twice shame on me
> 
> 
> R.I.P
> 
> F-16 you served us well
> 
> a foolish decision indeed to buy f-16s in 1980s when we had fighters blocked in 60s, than 90s and than even during the era of early bush admin when it was repeatedly blocked yet a huge amount of money was poured in to 18 new jets, with no upgrades in site this was indeed a foolish decision
> 
> you never purchase an aircraft with no mid life upgrade plans in sight
> 
> well army is doing the same with Zulus guess they never learn what happned with the cobras in 1990s


Sir, you're entitled to your opinion.

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## HRK

If nobody has posted earlier, plz listen the remarks Gen. (retd) Kayani carefully ....


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## Arsalan

HRK said:


> If nobody has posted earlier, plz listen the remarks Gen. (retd) Kayani carefully ....


Wasay bongi se he nahi mari Gen sb nay?

Airforce agr kabhi istemaal ho gi bhe tu BUTH KM istemaal ho gi.

Yeh bara mahnga jhaaz ha tu hum koshish krain gy in ko us tarha kay (aesay wasay) kmoon mein istemaal na krain!!

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## CHACHA"G"

HRK said:


> If nobody has posted earlier, plz listen the remarks Gen. (retd) Kayani carefully ....





Arsalan said:


> Wasay bongi se he nahi mari Gen sb nay?
> 
> Airforce agr kabhi istemaal ho gi bhe tu BUTH KM istemaal ho gi.
> 
> Yeh bara mahnga jhaaz ha tu hum koshish krain gy in ko us tarha kay (aesay wasay) kmoon mein istemaal na krain!!



Sir Gs , I think he mean war on terror..................... If you all remember in his era or at that time Pakistan did not used PAF that much .............. Gen.Rhaeel and ACM Sohail start using PAF .......................


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## HRK

CHACHA"G" said:


> Sir Gs , I think he mean war on terror..................... If you all remember in his era or at that time Pakistan did not used PAF that much .............. Gen.Rhaeel and ACM Sohail start using PAF .......................


I am specifically quoting his remarks in relation to bkl-52+



Arsalan said:


> Wasay bongi se he nahi mari Gen sb nay?
> 
> Airforce agr kabhi istemaal ho gi bhe tu BUTH KM istemaal ho gi.
> 
> Yeh bara mahnga jhaaz ha tu hum koshish krain gy in ko us tarha kay (aesay wasay) kmoon mein istemaal na krain!!


he was talking about blk-52+ & we know mostly MLU F-16 are used for WOT

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

How much f16s paf have 76 or 78???

Secondly ADF f16 can fire bvr missile or not and where does it stands against f16AM/BM or block52s ??


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## ziaulislam

HRK said:


> If nobody has posted earlier, plz listen the remarks Gen. (retd) Kayani carefully ....


kinda odd, if you not going to use it ore often you arenot going to be good at it


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## khanasifm

45+18+13 =76

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## Windjammer



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## HRK

ziaulislam said:


> kinda odd, if you not going to use it ore often you arenot going to be good at it


I think he made those remarks for the use of blk-52+ in WOT.... we know earlier MLU jets were in use mostly then F-16 which were bought from Jordan share the burden & now JF-17s are also more active (in fact as per 6 sep special program shared at this forum as well by some member) JF-17s are flying at least 3 sortie per day


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## khanasifm

khanasifm said:


> 45+18+13 =76



2 wings at 2 mob with 2 sqn in each wing  
No 39 with 5 and 11 and no 38 with 9 and 14


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## Talon

Aligning itself to the runway, belonging to the first ever squadron of PAF. This very F16 had met with an incident while in service in USAF in 2006. When returning from a sortie, right main gear wouldnt lock in down position, after working on the problem for 2 hours pilots landed on Edwards AFB with the right wing touching the ground. Pilots were safe, aircraft was repaired shortly afterwards and came in service with PAF two years later.. sr#92621

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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> Sir, you're entitled to your opinion.


just putting in facts, f-16 is no doubt the best aircraft, i think block 60 is better than anything out there..its also half the price of any other platform..but the problem is its not available ...

so either dont buy it..or up your diplomatic game

Mushi thought that pakistan is so important in the future that f-16 wount be blocked again, but apprently he was wrong


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## fatman17

ziaulislam said:


> just putting in facts, f-16 is no doubt the best aircraft, i think block 60 is better than anything out there..its also half the price of any other platform..but the problem is its not available ...
> 
> so either dont buy it..or up your diplomatic game
> 
> Mushi thought that pakistan is so important in the future that f-16 wount be blocked again, but apprently he was wrong


F16 is not blocked for sale. They just don't want to give it via aid money. If you have the cash no problem.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

fatman17 said:


> F16 is not blocked for sale. They just don't want to give it via aid money. If you have the cash no problem.


Seems the PAF is being blocked from building its F-16 in the most cost effective way. Khawaja Asif recently said the US blocked the sale of used F-16s from Jordan. Moreover, the PAF apparently didn't once put in a request for used F-16s from the US (at AMARC), which doesn't sound right at all since we know the PAF is fine with used F-16s. So the US clearly blocked that path too. With the only apparent option being new F-16s, the PAF was being asked to stake Pakistan's national funds on an unfriendly - and borderline belligerent - US.

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## fatman17

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Seems the PAF is being blocked from building its F-16 in the most cost effective way. Khawaja Asif recently said the US blocked the sale of used F-16s from Jordan. Moreover, the PAF apparently didn't once put in a request for used F-16s from the US (at AMARC), which doesn't sound right at all since we know the PAF is fine with used F-16s. So the US clearly blocked that path too. With the only apparent option being new F-16s, the PAF was being asked to stake Pakistan's national funds on an unfriendly - and borderline belligerent - US.


US offered EDA F16s in lieu of 28 embargoed ones, 14 were delivered (original 14 of 28 F16s) however the USN refused to release the other 14 original F16s, and for reasons only known to PAF, insisted on the delivery of the original 28 and a stalemate ensued. generally EDA F16s have logged heavy airframe hours and the embargoed 28 had not so PAF was rightly reluctant to take EDA F16s. meanwhile Belgian and Netherland F16s had similar airframe issues and the deals fell through. Jordanian F16s had low airframe hours plus were MLUed and the price was right. for the 2nd Jordanian F16 deal, the Jordanians raised the selling price which was the main hurdle not the NOC as claimed by KH.Asif (to be taken with a pinch of salt)

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

fatman17 said:


> US offered EDA F16s in lieu of 28 embargoed ones, 14 were delivered (original 14 of 28 F16s) however the USN refused to release the other 14 original F16s, and for reasons only known to PAF, insisted on the delivery of the original 28 and a stalemate ensued. generally EDA F16s have logged heavy airframe hours and the embargoed 28 had not so PAF was rightly reluctant to take EDA F16s. meanwhile Belgian and Netherland F16s had similar airframe issues and the deals fell through. Jordanian F16s had low airframe hours plus were MLUed and the price was right. for the 2nd Jordanian F16 deal, the Jordanians raised the selling price which was the main hurdle not the NOC as claimed by KH.Asif (to be taken with a pinch of salt)


The F-16 Block-25s and 32s sitting at the AMARC had about 10-15 years of flight hours on them. In fact, Indonesia acquired a bunch of them several years ago. Under the EDA the airframes could be had for relatively little as well. It's unlikely the PAF had ignored the avenue entirely, there likely was a supply side block. Obama's pivot to Asia, Republican animosity, etc effectively rendered the US a cold resource for conventional defence equipment. The PAF even tried bending the narrative of saying the F-16s were essential for COIN/CT and that failed (for FMF) as well. Never mind the fact that the PN's request for 6 OHPs was also canned and that we've seen a dearth of any US equipment transfers (bar COIN equipment like MRAP, and even then, in limited numbers).

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## ziaulislam

fatman17 said:


> US offered EDA F16s in lieu of 28 embargoed ones, 14 were delivered (original 14 of 28 F16s) however the USN refused to release the other 14 original F16s, and for reasons only known to PAF, insisted on the delivery of the original 28 and a stalemate ensued. generally EDA F16s have logged heavy airframe hours and the embargoed 28 had not so PAF was rightly reluctant to take EDA F16s. meanwhile Belgian and Netherland F16s had similar airframe issues and the deals fell through. Jordanian F16s had low airframe hours plus were MLUed and the price was right. for the 2nd Jordanian F16 deal, the Jordanians raised the selling price which was the main hurdle not the NOC as claimed by KH.Asif (to be taken with a pinch of salt)


its unlike you too ignore the obvious...
you have an official source via K. asif that they were blocked and clear examples of Romania and Indonesia that they are easily available if the go is given from the USA
now the new block 52 are available but do we have any proof of block 70/60 being available, i doubt it..


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## khanasifm

fatman17 said:


> US offered EDA F16s in lieu of 28 embargoed ones, 14 were delivered (original 14 of 28 F16s) however the USN refused to release the other 14 original F16s, and for reasons only known to PAF, insisted on the delivery of the original 28 and a stalemate ensued. generally EDA F16s have logged heavy airframe hours and the embargoed 28 had not so PAF was rightly reluctant to take EDA F16s. meanwhile Belgian and Netherland F16s had similar airframe issues and the deals fell through. Jordanian F16s had low airframe hours plus were MLUed and the price was right. for the 2nd Jordanian F16 deal, the Jordanians raised the selling price which was the main hurdle not the NOC as claimed by KH.Asif (to be taken with a pinch of salt)



First batch of Jordanian f16 were ocu and adf version with just life extension to 8000 hours and were not full mlu which includes much more like avionics etc 

Second batch of Jordanian f16 is full Mlued with about 2000 hours left on Average not sure about the price issue or USA issue but comparing to f-7 S with 2400-2600 total life, Jordanian f-16 were good for another 10-20 years depending upon hours flown per year 

But Lm and pa can extend life beyond 8000 hours if needed pac developed its own inspection for a5, f6 and f7 to extend life beyond Oem stipulated life
Per paf history book for f7s Oem did not participate even after requested in the process and pac develops its own based on experience gained mainly from t37,ft5, f6 ft6 and mirages


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## ziaulislam

i think getting used f-16s and huge spare parts chain was the biggest plus...as indonesia got 24 C/Ds at less than 700million(including training and spares) while Romania got a/bs at less than 20M a piece but its been obviously being blocked


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> i think getting used f-16s and huge spare parts chain was the biggest plus...as indonesia got 24 C/Ds at less than 700million(including training and spares) while Romania got a/bs at less than 20M a piece but its been obviously being blocked


PAF CAS statements:

_I consider it a *breach of promise* on their part because the United States promised to co-fund this operation (as part of its foreign military assistance). They *didn’t* *adhere to this promise*, which is very sad. As a *responsible nation*, you don’t do this. American funding for F-16s would have been a win-win situation for both._

http://www.bolnarratives.com/two-fronts-one-mission/​

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## ziaulislam

successful diplomatic victory for india


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## Signalian

F-16A Block-15 official spec sheet 1984.

http://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/F-16A_Block_15_Falcon_SAC_-_March_1984.pdf

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## VCheng

ziaulislam said:


> fool me once shame on you
> fool me twice shame on me
> 
> 
> R.I.P
> 
> F-16 you served us well
> 
> a foolish decision indeed to buy f-16s in 1980s when we had fighters blocked in 60s, than 90s and than even during the era of early bush admin when it was repeatedly blocked yet a huge amount of money was poured in to 18 new jets, with no upgrades in site this was indeed a foolish decision
> 
> you never purchase an aircraft with no mid life upgrade plans in sight
> 
> well army is doing the same with Zulus guess they never learn what happned with the cobras in 1990s



How much of the following comment applies to PAF F-16s?



blain2 said:


> I think folks need to read before blindly commenting. Customization has degrees. There are inherent capabilities allowed and disallowed depending on where you sit on the ladder. Take the block example. Not all nations will get the same capabilities depending on the clearance available (example DRFM and AShM integration exclusion from blk52s for some customers). There are capabilities and openness in the architecture allowed for partner nations to leverage or further exploit. However there are restrictions placed on exporting these capabilities and only lifted on a case by case basis. This goes all the more with the more advanced, software centric platforms.


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## IrbiS

Hi. haven't signed in here since ages! gotta post some excerpts from somethin' I've been reading


_*Pakistan Viper Kills














*_
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


*Viper Pilot with 6,000+ hours!



*



*
Daddies hit it off








Viper with AIM-7 Sparrow



*

-----------------------------------------------------

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## Raider 21

IrbiS said:


> Hi. haven't signed in here since ages! gotta post some excerpts from somethin' I've been reading
> 
> 
> _*Pakistan Viper Kills
> View attachment 438411
> View attachment 438412
> View attachment 438414
> View attachment 438415
> 
> *_
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------------------------------------------


It was Wing Commander A. Javed, not Squadron Leader. The pilot who was shot down is seen here flying an F-6 almost a year later after the incident in my profile pic. Also the details about Abbas Khattak shooting down an aircraft is somewhat a mystery, he did get checked out on the F-16 but did not fly operationally with No.14 squadron.


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## Bratva

On a related note. In wiki leaks, Czech officials discussing with their US counterparts how to control the export of VERA-E Radar to Non-Nato countries. Since US was a stakeholder in VERA-E Radar

Poloff met October 26 with Czech MFA Common Foreign Security and Policy Director Vaclav Balek to discuss exports of sensitive Czech military technology. Balek shared that the Czech Government is considering issuing a preliminary opinion on applications from several (unnamed) Czech export companies to negotiate sales of radar and/or passive surveillance technology to Indonesia, Ecuador, Nigeria, and Vietnam. Balek highlighted that these were not formal license applications but were instead "preliminary applications for the start of negotiations with partners." He was keen to point out that these applications were subject to a degree of uncertainty. The applications indicated neither a destination country's definite interest in purchasing a system nor that an eventual
export license application would be approved by the Czech Government.

¶3. (S/NF)* Balek said that any future exports of the VERA would be subject to a range of nonproliferation controls, including the incorporation of chips that would cause the 
system to self-destruct if operated outside of the destination country. (Note: We believe that applications to purchase the "VERA" refer to the slightly limited ASDD-01 version of the system that is normally offered to non-NATO countries. End note.) Balek outlined the following requests 
and probable Czech Government decisions: *
*
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-history-of-downgraded-vera-e-radar-purchase-by-paf.530145/
*

One's conspiracy mind might think about the rumors of restrictions placed on F-16 of not leaving Pak airspace without permission of US.

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## volatile

Yea SUb Fraudia humein hey kyun tuker they hein ,some time i wonder we criticize every one from grade 7 to PM but all frauds are done on us ,I dont want to know the kill switches theory in the event of war


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## Raider 21

Bratva said:


> On a related note. In wiki leaks, Czech officials discussing with their US counterparts how to control the export of VERA-E Radar to Non-Nato countries. Since US was a stakeholder in VERA-E Radar
> 
> Poloff met October 26 with Czech MFA Common Foreign Security and Policy Director Vaclav Balek to discuss exports of sensitive Czech military technology. Balek shared that the Czech Government is considering issuing a preliminary opinion on applications from several (unnamed) Czech export companies to negotiate sales of radar and/or passive surveillance technology to Indonesia, Ecuador, Nigeria, and Vietnam. Balek highlighted that these were not formal license applications but were instead "preliminary applications for the start of negotiations with partners." He was keen to point out that these applications were subject to a degree of uncertainty. The applications indicated neither a destination country's definite interest in purchasing a system nor that an eventual
> export license application would be approved by the Czech Government.
> 
> ¶3. (S/NF)* Balek said that any future exports of the VERA would be subject to a range of nonproliferation controls, including the incorporation of chips that would cause the
> system to self-destruct if operated outside of the destination country. (Note: We believe that applications to purchase the "VERA" refer to the slightly limited ASDD-01 version of the system that is normally offered to non-NATO countries. End note.) Balek outlined the following requests
> and probable Czech Government decisions:
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-history-of-downgraded-vera-e-radar-purchase-by-paf.530145/
> *
> 
> One's conspiracy mind might think about the rumors of restrictions placed on F-16 of not leaving Pak airspace without permission of US.


PAF F-16 Block 52s cannot fly or land outside Pakistan without US permission. Heard this from one of the first pilots who flew the Block 52. Not sure what's the status these days but this was back in 2011.

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## messiach

Good. H Hillaker was instrumental in LWFF programme. Landmark work.


IrbiS said:


> Hi. haven't signed in here since ages! gotta post some excerpts from somethin' I've been reading


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## Ahmet Pasha

Bahi jaan the best way is to apna banao tey apna khao. Simple



volatile said:


> Yea SUb Fraudia humein hey kyun tuker they hein ,some time i wonder we criticize every one from grade 7 to PM but all frauds are done on us ,I dont want to know the kill switches theory in the event of war


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## MastanKhan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Bahi jaan the best way is to apna banao tey apna khao. Simple



Hi,

It does not work in today's world---. It never worked in the past either---all great conquerers had their strength built on alliances.

You have to share and build alliances---.

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## Khafee

Knuckles said:


> PAF F-16 Block 52s cannot fly or land outside Pakistan without US permission. Heard this from one of the first pilots who flew the Block 52. Not sure what's the status these days but this was back in 2011.


Status remains same.

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## Tps43

Knuckles said:


> PAF F-16 Block 52s cannot fly or land outside Pakistan without US permission. Heard this from one of the first pilots who flew the Block 52. Not sure what's the status these days but this was back in 2011.


It was agreement for 10 years expiring in 2019 not before that.

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

tps77 said:


> It was agreement for 10 years expiring in 2019 not before that.


Sir can u tell/give reliable source of yur point ???

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## Tps43

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> Sir can u tell/give reliable source of yur point ???


well these things dont pop out in Public but for sure u can ask any professional regarding it.

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## Khafee

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> Sir can u tell/give reliable source of yur point ???


Call PAF, see what they say

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

Khafee said:


> Call PAF, see what they say


Thank u very much , miscall maari ha mn ne unhn

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## Khafee

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> Thank u very much , miscall maari ha mn ne unhn

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## Mentee

tps77 said:


> It was agreement for 10 years expiring in 2019 not before that.


da fact

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## Tps43

Mentee said:


> da fact nigga


yeah chill just 2 years

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## Mentee

tps77 said:


> yeah Nigga chill just 2 years


it's called treason . what a sorry excuse of a bargain we made , unyakeenable !

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## Tps43

Mentee said:


> it's called treason . what a sorry excuse of a bargain we made , unyakeenable !


it's only for blk 52 not for mlu's

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## Raider 21

Khafee said:


> Status remains same.


Same with the UAE Viper program I guess...whether ops from Saudi Arabia, Italy or Egypt....


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## Ahmet Pasha

I was talking about weapons production and self reliance.


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It does not work in today's world---. It never worked in the past either---all great conquerers had their strength built on alliances.
> 
> You have to share and build alliances---.


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## MastanKhan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> I was talking about weapons production and self reliance.



Hi,

And I was talking about the same as well amongst other things. This day and age is team building of like minded nations---. Together everyone achieves more.

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## Dazzler

The unsurpassed sniper ATP in action..

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## Khadim e Darul Ehsaan

I have read in fb group pakistan affair that amerca is back with its offer of selling 8 subsidized f16s as india has decieved him and lookheed has to shut their plant without further orders is its a truth or a rumer ??? Any senior


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## Raider 21

Khadim e Darul Ehsaan said:


> I have read in fb group pakistan affair that amerca is back with its offer of selling 8 subsidized f16s as india has decieved him and lookheed has to shut their plant without further orders is its a truth or a rumer ??? Any senior


Lockheed didn't shut their plant. They moved it to Greenville, South Carolina. Don't know about the deceiving part as that sound more like an Indian movie scenario but it would actually be nice to get additional F-16s.

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## mingle

Knuckles said:


> Lockheed didn't shut their plant. They moved it to Greenville, South Carolina. Don't know about the deceiving part as that sound more like an Indian movie scenario but it would actually be nice to get additional F-16s.


I think deceiving meant here is transfer of tech Indians wants it Americans not giving them plus Indians fear arm twisting here like Pakistan .So F 16s r out of race .


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## Raider 21

mingle said:


> I think deceiving meant here is transfer of tech Indians wants it Americans not giving them plus Indians fear arm twisting here like Pakistan .So F 16s r out of race .


Americans are mostly worried about their stuff ending up on the black market.....HAL has done this a couple of times before (according to a BAE Systems employee on the Hawk 132 program)....

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## fatman17

#Thunderbird crashes [emoji50]in huge fireball at airshow - The #pilot, Capt. Chris Strickland, who ejected at literally the last second before his F16 hit the ground. What a moment https://t.co/sBE7bBCMmn

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## Raider 21

An interesting article about a US Navy pilot's account of flying the F-16 at Top Gun. 

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ting-the-f-16n-viper-topguns-legendary-hotrod

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## Dazzler




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## Humble Analyst

tps77 said:


> It was agreement for 10 years expiring in 2019 not before that.


Do you beieve that in 2019 there will be no restrictions?

I think PAF should forget about F16s as it is time to move on


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## Tps43

Humble Analyst said:


> Do you beieve that in 2019 there will be no restrictions?
> 
> I think PAF should forget about F16s as it is time to move on


Agreed They should move on but with enough 15 years of spares.

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## Storm Force

tps77 said:


> Agreed They should move on but with enough 15 years of spares.



Your f16 fleet especially the brand block 52,may be compromised in future effecting operational effectiveness .

You will need to move to S new hi end fighter


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## Imran Khan

Storm Force said:


> Your f16 fleet especially the brand block 52,may be compromised in future effecting operational effectiveness .
> 
> You will need to move to S new hi end fighter


If i have power i park in stadium and burn them all once forever case closed

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## GriffinsRule

Storm Force said:


> Your f16 fleet especially the brand block 52,may be compromised in future effecting operational effectiveness .
> 
> You will need to move to S new hi end fighter



Stop having wet dreams already. I bet this has been a recurring New Years wish for Indians since 1984 to somehow get rid of PAF's Vipers ... rest assured their operational effectiveness will be up to par against IAF when the time comes. 

As for Pakistanis who keep harping on enough F-16s time and time again, come back to reality. If you think those weapon systems are compromised somehow, then you should also accept that PN will have no anti-submarine/maritime patrol aircraft and other naval weapon systems would somehow suddenly stop working too, along with all the radars systems and other weapons of American or European origin, attack helicopters and transport planes, etc etc. The list is going to be long. But the fact of the matter is, all these systems will perform as expected against India, the only country we will be going in an all out war against.

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## fatman17

Today In Aviation History

On January 15, 1983, the first of two F-16As and four F-16B were flown to Sargodha by the six pioneers, with a young Squadron Leader Shahid Lateef grabbing the media's spotlight by landing the first F-16B (serial# 82602) aircraft. https://t.co/JY4rbhtmbn

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## Incog_nito

How many F-16s from those 28 remaining are still left in USA?


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## Army research

Oxair Online said:


> How many F-16s from those 28 remaining are still left in USA?


We've already consumed them in wheat

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## Incog_nito

Army research said:


> We've already consumed them in wheat


No But they were supplying the ones that were designed for us and were with USN.


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## Army research

Oxair Online said:


> No But they were supplying the ones that were designed for us and were with USN.


And refunded us with wheat


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## Raider 21

Army research said:


> We've already consumed them in wheat


14. The US Navy and Marine Corps are flying it at Top Gun and it will be useless to pursue those jets as they are being used hardcore everyday for heavy ACM.


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## Safriz

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 445045


thats a marine x band radar i guess.


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## Windjammer

Knuckles said:


> 14. The US Navy and Marine Corps are flying it at Top Gun and it will be useless to pursue those jets as they are being used hardcore everyday for heavy ACM.


The salty sea air is also said to have taken toll on the air frames.


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## Safriz

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 445045


From own experience, i can tell, on those radars, the target is the only object on the screen which maintain shape. The clutter and false echoes change shape. thats the biggest clue.


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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> The salty sea air is also said to have taken toll on the air frames.


They are primarily based out at NAS Fallon which is at Nevada, so pretty dry out there. They don't fly out of any coastal naval air stations. They used to fly out of coastal naval air stations with the F-16Ns, which is a different aircraft compared to the former destined PAF aircraft. Those F-16Ns were based at NAS (now MCAS) Miramar and NAS Key West (literally beside the water).

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## Windjammer

Knuckles said:


> They are primarily based out at NAS Fallon which is at Nevada, so pretty dry out there. They don't fly out of any coastal naval air stations. They used to with the F-16Ns, which is a different aircraft compared to the former destined PAF aircraft. Those F-16Ns were based at NAS (now MCAS) Miramar and NAS Key West (literally beside the water).



In 2002, the US finally stopped trying to sell the aircraft and decided to assign them to the USAF and US Navy to fill the Aggressor role. After the demise of the (T)F-16N aggressor force, the US Navy lacked a high-performance aggressor aircraft. Because of the low airframe life of the embargoed Pakistani F-16s, these airframes were ideally suited for the demanding aggressor role. The 28 aircraft were thus evenly split between the USAF and the US Navy, and will take a vital role in DACT training of US forces.


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## WiderMan

Windjammer said:


> In 2002, the US finally stopped trying to sell the aircraft and decided to assign them to the USAF and US Navy to fill the Aggressor role. After the demise of the (T)F-16N aggressor force, the US Navy lacked a high-performance aggressor aircraft. Because of the low airframe life of the embargoed Pakistani F-16s, these airframes were ideally suited for the demanding aggressor role. The 28 aircraft were thus evenly split between the USAF and the US Navy, and will take a vital role in DACT training of US forces.



Incorrect. The USAF AGRS' chose block 30/32 Vipers over our Block 15s.

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## Raider 21

WiderMan said:


> Incorrect. The USAF AGRS' chose block 30/32 Vipers over our Block 15s.


The USAF Aggressors fly C/D models but the jets that were sent to USAF from the PAF batch ended up at Edwards AFB, assigned with the flight test squadrons.


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## Fledgingwings

Trump and company doesnt looks in such a mood.


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## Safriz

picture of PAF F-16 taken by me from Monal restaurant islamabad.

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## truthseeker2010

شاھین میزایل said:


> View attachment 463041
> picture of PAF F-16 taken by me from Monal restaurant islamabad.



This is JF-17 dude!

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## Safriz

truthseeker2010 said:


> This is JF-17 dude!


oh is it? it was too far to recognize.


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## Ultima Thule

شاھین میزایل said:


> oh is it? it was too far to recognize.


Yeah bro look closer its a indeed a JF-17


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## ziaulislam

شاھین میزایل said:


> oh is it? it was too far to recognize.


yup it is a thunder, look at nose, wings


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## Safriz

ziaulislam said:


> yup it is a thunder, look at nose, wings


Yes, now that i zoom in , i can see the "Chaand Sitaara" on the Thunder belly 

Monal is a high vantage point but too far, i should have stopped at Daman-e-Koh.
Also the cloud cover and haze made photography very difficult. Planes were barely visible and nearly impossible to track through the zoom lens. (Picture was taken on the second rehearsal 21st March)

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## Windjammer



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## Dazzler



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## Meejee

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 463920



Now that's a cool pic.


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## MastanKhan

http://www.historyinorbit.com/these...&utm_medium=TYLER_HIO-Desk-US-T2-Disaster-3b1


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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> http://www.historyinorbit.com/these...&utm_medium=TYLER_HIO-Desk-US-T2-Disaster-3b1


That was a close call indeed. Unfortunately the Thunderbirds lost one of their own yesterday morning at Nellis AFB. Thunderbird 4 was killed in a training flight. 

http://afthunderbirds.com/site/2018/04/04/thunderbirds-pilot-identified/

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## Windjammer

There are reports circulating that PAF is acquiring 18 Block-30 F-16s possibly from Denmark.
Not sure how would this work out since Trump administration earlier blocked the transfer of Jordanian F-16s to Pakistan. However, a PAF delegation did visit Danish F-16 facilities last year.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> There are reports circulating that PAF is acquiring 18 Block-30 F-16s possibly from Denmark.
> Not sure how would this work out since Trump administration earlier blocked the transfer of Jordanian F-16s to Pakistan. However, a PAF delegation did visit Danish F-16 facilities last year.


If only Denmark ever flew Block 30s....

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## Maxpane

Whats special in block 30?


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## Shabi1

Knuckles said:


> If only Denmark ever flew Block 30s....


According to F-16.net, all Danish F-16s were ordered as Block-15. Active fleet were put through a MLU update so they they should have gotten the F-16AM/BM designation. Regardless of in what configuration they currently are, if acquired then PAF will likely put them through a overhaul from Turkey and bring them upto the standards of rest of the fleet, so not bad.
Also Denmark has extensive F-16 maintenance and component manufacture expertise, even if aircraft not sold it is highly likely PAF delegation visited for transfer of facilities and services.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article3.html

*Modifications & Armament*
*Identification Light*
All Danish F-16s are equipped with a search light, mounted on the port forward fuselage, in front of and just beneath the canopy. The search light is used for identification during nighttime interceptions, and uses a 450W light bulb. This modification is the same as the light on Norwegian F-16s, and similar to the ADF's. The RDAF already installed this searchlight during initial production.




All Danish AF F-16s are equiped with an Identification Spotlight on the port side of the cockpit, used to identify night-time intruders. [F-16.net photo]
*Pylon Integrated Dispenser*
The RDAF's F-16s have been given extra wiring to the no. 3 and 7 wing stations, in order to be able to accept the Pylon Integrated Dispenser Station. The PIDS is manufactured by Per Udsen Co. Aircraft Industry (Terma A/S since 1997) in Denmark, and is in fact a pylon equipped with chaff dispensers. Normal configuration is to carry a PIDS on either 3 or 7 station, and the Advanced Miniature Jamming System (AN/ALQ-10) on the opposite pylon. AMJS is a very powerful system comparable with the AN/ALQ-131 series, and is also built in Denmark.

The chaff dispenser used by the RDAF right now is the RR-170 with 30 chaff cartridges in each. After briefly considering the RR-180, the RDAF has ordered a new type called Cherming Chaff Block (CCB) from Cherming Ltd., England. The CCB is the same size as the RR-170 but carries 60 charges.

All chaff/flare/ECM activity is controlled by the (digital) Electronic Warfare Management System (EWMS) which is made by the Danish company Terma. The mechanical firing mechanism in the chaff/flare canisters have also been replaced by a digital one from Danish origin.

*Reconnaissance Pods*
Some Danish F-16s also have the capability of carrying the Red Baron Recce Pod. The Red Baron Pod has been replaced by the Modular Reconnaissance Pod (MRP), locally developed by Per Udsen Co. (now Terma). This pod has also been exported, amongst others to to Belgium.




Royal Danish AF F-16A in recce configuration, equiped with the Baron recce pod and the Pylon Integrated Dispenser System (PIDS) - a countermeasures dispenser in the outer wing pylons. [RDAF photo]
*Mid-Life Update*
The RDAF participates in the MLU program and has modified all of its remaining 61 F-16s in the Aalborg workshop.

*Armament*
The primary air-intercept weapon carried by RDAF F-16A/B's is the AIM-9L Sidewinder, but the RDAF plans to acquire the AIM-120 AMRAAM fire-and-forget air-to-air missile for its F-16s. It will also acquire the Hughes AGM-65G Maverick air-to-surface missile for ground attack missions, with the LAU-3, Mk 82 and Mk 84 also staying in service in the near future.

With the modernization of the Danish F-16s to MLU standards, also other weapon systems were introduced on the fleet. Besides the purchase of some LANTIRN pods, also LGB weapons were acquired consisting in GBU-12 and GBU-24 weapons. Denmark was the first of the four EPAF countries to purchase the GBU-31 JDAM for its F-16 fleet.




Danish F-16 at Karup AFB with weapons line-up [RDAF photo]
*Avionics*
Since Danish pilots found that the built-in clock/timer in the instrument stack was not ideal to use, a cheap digital quartz watch was fitted next to the HUD on all Danish F-16s.

Currently the aircraft are being upgraded with the LINK 16 advanced tactical data link, JHMCS (Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System), and an advanced EWMS (Electronic Warfare Management System)

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## Windjammer

Knuckles said:


> If only Denmark ever flew Block 30s....


If one was to ignore the usual nitty gritty, Denmark has been an F-16 operator even longer than the PAF and operated one of the five or six European F-16 production facilities. RDAF F-16 are some of the best maintained models flying, with the arrivals of F-35s, it obviously wants to dispose off the Falcons, these frames ideally suit PAF requirements, but it all boils down to the mood swings on Capitol Hill.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> If one was to ignore the usual nitty gritty, Denmark has been an F-16 operator even longer than the PAF and operated one of the five or six European F-16 production facilities. RDAF F-16 are some of the best maintained models flying, with the arrivals of F-35s, it obviously wants to dispose off the Falcons, these frames ideally suit PAF requirements, but it all boils down to the mood swings on Capitol Hill.


Yes but not Block 30s, they never operated C/D models. They started flying the Viper just 3 years before PAF started....all their Vipers became MLUs but certainly not Block 30s.

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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> There are reports circulating that PAF is acquiring 18 Block-30 F-16s possibly from Denmark.
> Not sure how would this work out since Trump administration earlier blocked the transfer of Jordanian F-16s to Pakistan. However, a PAF delegation did visit Danish F-16 facilities last year.



All Lt Col and Col and mixed forces branch plus international folks looks more like air war college course international visit so I do not think these pics are correct, as far as news who knows where rumors started

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## Tps43

khanasifm said:


> All Lt Col and Col and mixed forces branch plus international folks looks more like air war college course international visit so I do not think these pics are correct, as far as news who knows where rumors started


See One AVM is there and majority of Crop is of Engg Branch.

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## khanasifm

tps77 said:


> See One AVM is there and majority of Crop is of Engg Branch.



Sirilankan a phlipeno/ Chinese ?? Avm may be Cmd of air war college ?

Army aviation Col, Punjab regiment Col ??


----------



## Windjammer

khanasifm said:


> All Lt Col and Col and mixed forces branch plus international folks looks more like air war college course international visit so I do not think these pics are correct, as far as news who knows where rumors started


Apples and Oranges sir...... the news is of today, the pictures are from last year.
No connection to the current alleged situation.

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## Imran Khan

PAF looking for scrap

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## Windjammer

*AMRAAMS on wingtips and under wing. 
*

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## BATMAN

PAF should stay away from scrap.
I guess this one visit would have costed 1/2 of list price of jF-17.

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## salman-1

Well maintaned jets are like well maintained cars. What PAF has been replacing F-16s with are more scrap and useless and they are the F-7Ps the oldest jets having 2-300 hours of life left in them. Trust me replacing them would be like a great leap for that lucky squadron.


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## Raider 21

salman-1 said:


> Well maintaned jets are like well maintained cars. What PAF has been replacing F-16s with are more scrap and useless and they are the F-7Ps the oldest jets having 2-300 hours of life left in them. Trust me replacing them would be like a great leap for that lucky squadron.


A worn out F-16 is more useful than a mid-life F-7.....trust me on that.


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## MIRauf

That's like 10-15 years of Service ( 2K/3K hrs left on airframe. ) Can't beat that if you have the infrastructure built up to support it and specially if one is on shoe string budget. Not all countries can afford to dole out $10+ billion for 36 jets.


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## GriffinsRule

I think the nitty gritty does matter even in small thing such as discussions on a forum. We already have a tendency to ignore details and the 'chalta hai' mentality has been a detriment for our people and progress. It is thus important to get the details right or at least if unsure, leave them out. This is how misinformation spreads, exponentially gets bigger and once into the mainstream it becomes 'fact'.

On the news itself, it would be great if PAF can get used F-16s. BTW I never believed we had ANY chance of getting any further F-16s from Jordan as they have themselves been buying the MLU birds from Europe. They got rid of their ANG versions of the old non-MLU F-16 and it simplifies their maintenance and training streams too. Possible that there were background deal making for PAF not being able to get additional birds from US directly (perhaps politics or optics). Regardless, RJAF has no spare F-16s to sell PAF so we should forget about that rumor mill. 

Now for the European F-16s, their MLU was done up to the M6.5 standard I believe (retired ones that they have been selling are of M5 standard). For those interested to know, there is not one "standard" MLU upgrade. There are multiple versions of the mid-life upgrade that add specific enhancements to the F-16. There was an article recently in AFM that mentioned some of the issues with the Jordanian procurement of Dutch F-16s where the jets were to be downgraded to the M3 standard but there were some hardware/component issues with integration and the US finally allowed those to stay at the M5 standard.

The M3 tape provides Link 16 integration, GPS bombs capability, Helmet mounted sights, NVG compatibility. 
The M5 tape further allows for additional stand-off weapons like the dual-mode EGBU-12, Stores management systems, improved GPS and INS systems, newer standard for Link-16 and newer VHF radios etc. 

PAF F-16s are at least of M4 standard as it allows for integration of Sniper targeting pods.

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## Tps43

khanasifm said:


> Sirilankan a phlipeno/ Chinese ?? Avm may be Cmd of air war college ?
> 
> Army aviation Col, Punjab regiment Col ??


Yup u may be right apology


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## BATMAN

salman-1 said:


> Well maintaned jets are like well maintained cars. What PAF has been replacing F-16s with are more scrap and useless and they are the F-7Ps the oldest jets having 2-300 hours of life left in them. Trust me replacing them would be like a great leap for that lucky squadron.



Make more jF17.. that's the correct replacement of F7PG
One scrap F16 would cost Pakistan maybe $5mil. than comes its service spares, which may cost another $5mil. and we will be able to squeeze out of it, maybe 500-1000 hours.
Whereas we can have local made jF-17 with all its potential for less than $20mil.

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## salman-1

With all it's gizmos and gadgets available to Pakistan a F-16 Blk. 15 with Mlu is much better threat than a Blk 2. Even at strike or recce role it's still a decade ahead of Thunders. Thunders just got it's first aselpods which has to be practiced a lot for mastering. Where as all recce and targeting pods on F16s are battle proven gadgets.


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## Shabi1

JF-17 Block-3 and above will be more advanced but can't argue with the larger payload capability of the F-16 and it's advantages in the strike role.

PAF in my opinion will leave no stone un turned and despite the politics will continue to acquire used F-16s and upgrade them just as it did with the Mirage.

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## araz

Shabi1 said:


> JF-17 Block-3 and above will be more advanced but can't argue with the larger payload capability of the F-16 and it's advantages in the strike role.
> 
> PAF in my opinion will leave no stone un turned and despite the politics will continue to acquire used F-16s and upgrade them just as it did with the Mirage.


Quite sensible but the US mood is something that will hamper PAF's efforts. My problem remains with the threat of sanctions which could jeoperdise the functioning of upto 100 planes. I understand war reserves and PAF inbuilt capabilities of repair and upkeep but still sanctions remain a destabilizing factor. Cost and infrastructure wise it makes perfect sense to induct upto a total of 100 Bl. 15 platforms as out infrastructure can support it.
A


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## Readerdefence

Hi can some informed memeber shed some light what going to happen with European f16 as they are acquiring f35 so most of them can not maintain large number of f16 on their pay roll beside 
Having a money minting f35 
So in that case either sell them to the countries already operating f16 or something like buy back 
Thing from LM to push for the sale of.f35 as is the case with French they are pushing their sale of 
Rafale while buying back some old mirages from one of the middle eastern country 
Any input from a learned member will be appreciated 
Thank you

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## volatile

A grounded F16 due to parts is not even worth F6 in air


Knuckles said:


> A worn out F-16 is more useful than a mid-life F-7.....trust me on that.


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## Imran Khan

Readerdefence said:


> Hi can some informed memeber shed some light what going to happen with European f16 as they are acquiring f35 so most of them can not maintain large number of f16 on their pay roll beside
> Having a money minting f35
> So in that case either sell them to the countries already operating f16 or something like buy back
> Thing from LM to push for the sale of.f35 as is the case with French they are pushing their sale of
> Rafale while buying back some old mirages from one of the middle eastern country
> Any input from a learned member will be appreciated
> Thank you


these f-16s have no life left sir mostly using over sea and push the limit . buying them means you have MLU and structure upgrade facility so you can use them that we don't have . so forget them

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## BATMAN

Knuckles said:


> A worn out F-16 is more useful than a mid-life F-7.....trust me on that.


Sure you are trusted on that one... but how much a worn out F-16 would cost !



araz said:


> Quite sensible but the US mood is something that will hamper PAF's efforts.


Not allowing Pakistan to buy scrap is helping Pakistan.


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## araz

BATMAN said:


> Sure you are trusted on that one... but how much a worn out F-16 would cost !
> 
> 
> Not allowing Pakistan to buy scrap is helping Pakistan.


Beggers cannot be choosers. We want to maintain a 1/2 million army and 400 jet fleet AF but dont have the money even to pay the interest on the money we have borrowed. We will probably have to take another bailout from IMF in the not too distant future. So yes scrap it may be to them but to us it is still a valuable commodity. Which would you rather have then, some scrap or no defence.
W

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## BATMAN

araz said:


> Bevfers cannot be choosers. We want to maintain a 1/2 million army and 400 jet fleet AF but dont have the money even to pay the interest on the money we have borrowed. We will probably have to tqke another bailout from IMF in the not too distant future. So yes scrap it may be to them but to us it os still a valuable commodity. Which would you rather have then, some scrap or no defence.
> W



In that case wasting $millions on scrap doesn't make much sense.
Whereas in case of jF-17, capital remains in Pakistan !
IMO, Pakistan should be focused on jF17 and now also in AZAM which will give us higher payload equivalent to F-16.


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## araz

BATMAN said:


> In that case wasting $millions on scrap doesn't make much sense.
> Whereas in case of jF-17, capital remains in Pakistan !
> IMO, Pakistan should be focused on jF17 and now also in AZAM which will give us higher payload equivalent to F-16.


The last block of 50 JFT planes we procured we signed a deal of hundreds of millions of dollars with China. True the cost is less than a new plane from outside but still a cost has to be paid. So No your contention is not correct.
Look I dont want to prolong this debate. The point I am making is that the capabilities that MLUed Bl.15s bring to PAF can not be compared to the JFT.
Yes if Bl.3 can supplement fully the role of the 16s which it cannot; as the 2 platforms have different roles and capabilities; then you may not need the 16s but if second hand examples can be procured , given fleet obsolescence and lack of money in the kitty, and rate of development of infrastructure for newer JFT VS established infrastructure for F16s, this would be a good interim solution.
I fully understand that US can sanction you again but unless the sanctions last years upon years and then the war comes, we will be fine with our current inventory given the stockpiles and rebuilding capacity.
A


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## Shabi1

araz said:


> Quite sensible but the US mood is something that will hamper PAF's efforts. My problem remains with the threat of sanctions which could jeoperdise the functioning of upto 100 planes. I understand war reserves and PAF inbuilt capabilities of repair and upkeep but still sanctions remain a destabilizing factor. Cost and infrastructure wise it makes perfect sense to induct upto a total of 100 Bl. 15 platforms as out infrastructure can support it.
> A



There is a difference in what the US says and whats going on behind doors. They can cut aid but it is unlikely Pakistan sees the type of sanctions it saw before. Even under sanctions PAF kept its F-16 fleet airworthy via blackmarket spares, issue was that PAF couldnt get upgrades without US approval. With regards to the F-16 things are alot different now, alot of non US vendors make parts for it. PAF learned it's lessons and is now stockpiling spares and is acquiring rebuild know how. An example is the recent recovery of a severely damaged F-16B in which a bomb exploded prematurely during a strike mission.

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## ziaulislam

New f16 yes..old f16 no way usa is going to release them...in anyway they are not on agenda of our relationship either ...military no longer has strong influence over politicians and pilticans are mire concerned abt other things


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## Raider 21

volatile said:


> A grounded F16 due to parts is not even worth F6 in air


Tell that to Venezuela....they are doing a pretty good job and they're not complaining....


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## Tank131

Please remember that PAF is already flying scrap in the form of Mirage an F-7p and soon F-7PG. Any F-16s, even if older but with some reasonable life on them, will benefit exponentially over these three in terms of capabilities and saving pilot lives. These are stop gaps until a more modern fighter (be it block 3 or AZM or something else) is acquired. You have 160 legacy Mirage/F-7 to replace by 2025 and this will take a bite out of them until project Azm and late block JF-17s are ready to start replacing F-16. If u can get them and for cheap put them into service i say do it.

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## Talon



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## muhammadali233

Is this a real one or model


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## Raider 21

muhammadali233 said:


> Is this a real one or model


With a canopy like that....it is a major fake.


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## muhammadali233

Knuckles said:


> With a canopy like that....it is a major fake.


hahaha Should have noticed.


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## Armchair

Talking about Venezuela, is PAF interested in acquiring those? Will the US allow it? What's the best option for getting a few used F-16s?


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## araz

It is a poor model at that.
A


Knuckles said:


> With a canopy like that....it is a major fake.


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## Raider 21

Armchair said:


> Talking about Venezuela, is PAF interested in acquiring those? Will the US allow it? What's the best option for getting a few used F-16s?


Just like Pakistan...Venezuela loves their Vipers a lot. They will not give it up....

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## MastanKhan

muhammadali233 said:


> Is this a real one or model



Hi,

Seems like the original bubble canopy is being used on another aircraft and a plastic canopy manufactured for this display aircraft.


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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Seems like the original bubble canopy is being used on another aircraft and a plastic canopy manufactured for this display aircraft.


That is not a retired aircraft....more of a mockup

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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> That is not a retired aircraft....more of a mockup



That is the right word---.

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## Stealth

jab Fsola aur Cobra Gunships roads aur chowkoon pe ajayen tu samaj jaye inak waqt Pakistan may pora hochuka hey lol

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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## denel

Tank131 said:


> Please remember that PAF is already flying scrap in the form of Mirage an F-7p and soon F-7PG. Any F-16s, even if older but with some reasonable life on them, will benefit exponentially over these three in terms of capabilities and saving pilot lives. These are stop gaps until a more modern fighter (be it block 3 or AZM or something else) is acquired. You have 160 legacy Mirage/F-7 to replace by 2025 and this will take a bite out of them until project Azm and late block JF-17s are ready to start replacing F-16. If u can get them and for cheap put them into service i say do it.


Agreed; there are plenty of old f-16s out there and still offer a lot of performance overall compared to Mirages.


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## ziaulislam

denel said:


> Agreed; there are plenty of old f-16s out there and still offer a lot of performance overall compared to Mirages.


Not available as USA Will not allow it

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## ziaulislam

The time was pre 2011 which was screwed up by PPPP


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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> Not available as USA Will not allow it


Yes for now... time is always a great ally


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## ziaulislam

denel said:


> Yes for now... time is always a great ally


what will USA gain from allowing it....

in the past military had strong strength inside establishment, that has now dissipated, so even if relation thaw, it would be more economical aid and bribes rather than military equipment...

so even if it happens, it will be new f-16s from mix of pakistani and foreign aid(indirect)..but used..not going to happenn..especially not till single engine vendor project of IAF goes


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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> what will USA gain from allowing it....
> 
> in the past military had strong strength inside establishment, that has now dissipated, so even if relation thaw, it would be more economical aid and bribes rather than military equipment...
> 
> so even if it happens, it will be new f-16s from mix of pakistani and foreign aid(indirect)..but used..not going to happenn..especially not till single engine vendor project of IAF goes


No.... old ones have no benefit in terms of leverage; thousands are available. 

I am saying time is your ally because newer blk Jf-17 will be in place in next 2 years; once it is shown that f-16s present no leverage, they will let it flow; it is just a matter of time. No need to get newer f-16s as they have too many strings and checks/balances. Older f-16s can be mlu'ed via TAI and you have control on their capabilities.

I dont think IAF will go with f-16s; it has reached end of life in terms of upgrades. They may land up with Gripen.

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## ziaulislam

denel said:


> No.... old ones have no benefit in terms of leverage; thousands are available.
> 
> I am saying time is your ally because newer blk Jf-17 will be in place in next 2 years; once it is shown that f-16s present no leverage, they will let it flow; it is just a matter of time. No need to get newer f-16s as they have too many strings and checks/balances. Older f-16s can be mlu'ed via TAI and you have control on their capabilities.
> 
> I dont think IAF will go with f-16s; it has reached end of life in terms of upgrades. They may land up with Gripen.


USA will not release old planes as it will not give nay jobs to LM..you missed the point, that is the no. 1 reasom, it will only allow it for an ally that is desparate and has no money, so likley old f-16s will go to eastern european countries, it will not even allow f-16s from third countries to go to pakistan..it wants to pressurize pakistan to buy new ones

f-16 has much larger life span and upgrades than gripen, its going to be in service in USA till 2050, gripen NG has just one customer!...

new f-16s are even sold today

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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> USA will not release old planes as it will not give nay jobs to LM..you missed the point, that is the no. 1 reasom, it will only allow it for an ally that is desparate and has no money, so likley old f-16s will go to eastern european countries, it will not even allow f-16s from third countries to go to pakistan..it wants to pressurize pakistan to buy new ones
> 
> f-16 has much larger life span and upgrades than gripen, its going to be in service in USA till 2050, gripen NG has just one customer!...
> 
> new f-16s are even sold today


Well Pak has no money either. Just a matter of understanding. IAF does not want a product with strings attached. Gripen is in my opinion a better aircraft.


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## Advocate Pakistan

denel said:


> Well Pak has no money either. Just a matter of understanding. IAF does not want a product with strings attached. Gripen is in my opinion a better aircraft.


I thought the Indians have cancelled the single engine jet bid and are back to double engine bid again.


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## Raider 21

Advocate Pakistan said:


> I thought the Indians have cancelled the single engine jet bid and are back to double engine bid again.


With the Indian government who knows what happens, they don't exactly have the best procurement people (a BAE Systems employee told me that from his time on Jaguars and Hawks with the IAF)......for example they finalised a deal for the Hawk 100s that were delivered in 2006 even though the initial deal started in 1992....


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## denel

Advocate Pakistan said:


> I thought the Indians have cancelled the single engine jet bid and are back to double engine bid again.


Yes they cancelled it; looks like Mig-35/Fa-18


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## ziaulislam

denel said:


> Well Pak has no money either. Just a matter of understanding. IAF does not want a product with strings attached. Gripen is in my opinion a better aircraft.


but is not an alley outside WOT, india is the ally...imagine the out-roar if USA arms an arch enemy of a strategic ally(which is india)


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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> but is not an alley outside WOT, india is the ally...imagine the out-roar if USA arms an arch enemy of a strategic ally(which is india)


It is up to your lobbyists and foreign affairs to ensure relations were good. Indians are masters of lobbying and shedding tears for even a squeek.

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## Raider 21

denel said:


> It is up to your lobbyists and foreign affairs to ensure relations were good. Indians are masters of lobbying and shedding tears for even a squeek.


A pat from the west is all they desire....and it works if you show desperation...

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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> It is up to your lobbyists and foreign affairs to ensure relations were good. Indians are masters of lobbying and shedding tears for even a squeek.



Hi,

Tragically---they really don't know how to talk to the americans---and that is the crux of the problem.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Sooooo damn true.
Pakistani uncle type government officers see white skin and immediately begin drooling like rabid dogs.


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Tragically---they really don't know how to talk to the americans---and that is the crux of the problem.

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## Readerdefence

denel said:


> Yes they cancelled it; looks like Mig-35/Fa-18


Hi I think they will go for f18 super hornet as their second acc 
Is coming online so they will definitely need some thing better then mig29 
And by large they are I think not ready at the moment for f35 as USA is reluctant 
To supply them f35 until they cancel Russian stealth deal completely and make them 
To close up the f35 bases for Russian inspections 
Your input will be appreciated 
Thank you

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## Advocate Pakistan

Readerdefence said:


> Hi I think they will go for f18 super hornet as their second acc
> Is coming online so they will definitely need some thing better then mig29
> And by large they are I think not ready at the moment for f35 as USA is reluctant
> To supply them f35 until they cancel Russian stealth deal completely and make them
> To close up the f35 bases for Russian inspections
> Your input will be appreciated
> Thank you


I think Rafale M would be a more likely candidate. Ain't it so.


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## Raider 21

Advocate Pakistan said:


> I think Rafale M would be a more likely candidate. Ain't it so.


Sensibly yes. Great jet.


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## fatman17

Viper Driver Flying Hours 

Sqn.Ldr. Hamid "Mustang" Qayyum

Viper Driver

Name
Sqn.Ldr. Hamid "Mustang" Qayyum
Country Pakistan 
Unit
11th squadron "Arrows"Flying F-16s
Viper Hours1000
Memorable F-16 Aircraft

F-16 #84714 [Detailed history of this F-16]
F-16 Flying Hours1,000 Hours#2820 on the 1K listUnitN/ADateunknownCommen
Flying Hours on other aircraft

Mig 21 FishbedHours1100


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## KaleemlOvely

PAF is very strong and the way they manage things is very impressive.


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## MastanKhan

KaleemlOvely said:


> PAF is very strong and the way they manage things is very impressive.




Hi,

Welcome to " kiss the mirror " concept.

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## Raider 21

KaleemlOvely said:


> PAF is very strong and the way they manage things is very impressive.


Respect them.....do not worship them. A PAF fighter pilot told me that......

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## denel

Knuckles said:


> Respect them.....do not worship them. A PAF fighter pilot told me that......


That is the problem on itself. It is a shame you are idolising; if there were true enterprises for learning, R&D, technology or industrial, we would not be seeing this mannerism.

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## Path-Finder

It's time to pursue J10!


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## Imran Khan

Path-Finder said:


> It's time to pursue J10!


that time is past 10 years ago


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## Path-Finder

Imran Khan said:


> that time is past 10 years ago


not for J-10 C


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## Imran Khan

Path-Finder said:


> not for J-10 C


even j-10 d sir koi 5th gen ki baat karo ab


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## Path-Finder

Imran Khan said:


> even j-10 d sir koi 5th gen ki baat karo ab


5th Gen is the next decade, need something to bridge the gap.


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## Sine Nomine

Knuckles said:


> Just like Pakistan...Venezuela loves their Vipers a lot. They will not give it up....


The logistical and practical details notwithstanding, Chavez sought a way to free Venezuela from reliance on US training and parts. He may view buying a new fleet of fighters from Russia as an easy solution to his decaying F-16 squadron. Only six of the 21 remaining F-16s in the Venezuelan fleet are fully mission capable, while a proposed US overhaul of the F-16 squadron remained on hold.

The US moved to block a proposed $100 million Israeli update of Venezuela's American-bought F-16s
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/venezuela/airforce-modernization.htm


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## Imran Khan

Path-Finder said:


> 5th Gen is the next decade, need something to bridge the gap.


thunder is here for fill all the gaps


----------



## GriffinsRule

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> The logistical and practical details notwithstanding, Chavez sought a way to free Venezuela from reliance on US training and parts. He may view buying a new fleet of fighters from Russia as an easy solution to his decaying F-16 squadron. Only six of the 21 remaining F-16s in the Venezuelan fleet are fully mission capable, while a proposed US overhaul of the F-16 squadron remained on hold.
> 
> The US moved to block a proposed $100 million Israeli update of Venezuela's American-bought F-16s
> https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/venezuela/airforce-modernization.htm



Buying Russian aircraft is now out of question for Pakistan as well for now.
US passed a new law, “Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act” (CAATSA), that sanctions countries buying "significant" Russian defense equipment. Su-35s would certainly fall in that category.

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## The Accountant

Imran Khan said:


> thunder is here for fill all the gaps


Fifth generation cannot be fielded in numbers due to high cost and very low availablity ... Prkme job will remain strike mission whereas air defence and other roles needs to be covered specially to counter rafael we need a 4.5 generation fighter


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## Sine Nomine

GriffinsRule said:


> Buying Russian aircraft is now out of question for Pakistan as well for now.
> US passed a new law, “Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act” (CAATSA), that sanctions countries buying "significant" Russian defense equipment. Su-35s would certainly fall in that category.


Of we have huge Pockets not a big deal.


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## Armchair

Maybe Pak can offer Venezuela some JF-17s as barter for their F-16s.

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## Signalian

GriffinsRule said:


> Buying Russian aircraft is now out of question for Pakistan as well for now.
> US passed a new law, “Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act” (CAATSA), that sanctions countries buying "significant" Russian defense equipment. Su-35s would certainly fall in that category.


One solid step has to be taken to get a new bird which is more capable than F-16 to get out of the strings attached misery. 

For F-16 replacement, SU-35 and SU-30MKI are similar in many aspects, if it would have been any other bird offered by Russians capable of taking on all F-16 roles in a better way, PAF might have gone for it by risking embargo on F-16's as it has happened in past too. SU-34 is a strike aircraft, Mig-35 is similar to Mig-29 flown by IAF, no other modern option apart from SU-57 but SU-57 is almost out of equation.
For Mirages replacement, SU-24 and Mig-27 are older generation aircraft. SU-34 is excellent and too expensive. SU-25 is not Multirole as Mirages. That's Russia.

Now US, F-35 A/B/C, F-15 C/E, F-18 E/F, F-16 C/D/E/F are all out. 
European Gripen and Rafale are out. EF2K is expensive too, three-four times expensive than J-10 and possibly sanction prone. 
Chinese J-10 and J-31 are two options. J-10 is inferior or comparable to Block 52+ and MLU, its like replacing same class aircraft, not worth the money spend. J-31 however could be a good option, if PAF is satisfied with chinese engines and stealth design.

Otherwise lots of second hand Mirage2000, again operated by IAF, and probably second hand F-16's, if US allows.

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## GriffinsRule

Used Mirage 2000s are not a bad idea, regardless if they have been in IAF service or not. They are certainly F-16 contemporaries and much more capable then Mirage 3/5s. The issue is, they have to be -9 variant or better to be really of value in this age. Not sure if there are used ones in number available from the French stock. The only other option is Qatari aircraft in a few years as they start getting the F-15s, Rafales and EF-2000s

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## araz

GriffinsRule said:


> Used Mirage 2000s are not a bad idea, regardless if they have been in IAF service or not. They are certainly F-16 contemporaries and much more capable then Mirage 3/5s. The issue is, they have to be -9 variant or better to be really of value in this age. Not sure if there are used ones in number available from the French stock. The only other option is Qatari aircraft in a few years as they start getting the F-15s, Rafales and EF-2000s


Muradk who was a senior poster at the board and ex PAF Asaid in 02 that there was a move to evaluate the M2K5 from French stock. 59 samples were available with 20 yrs worth of spares. The idea died down as the price quoted was 60 million per aircraft. Capabipities wise we dont get any advantage. It seems more and more likely the jseries from China might be the answer if the Chinese will help.
A

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## GriffinsRule

They might be the same as the J series in capability, but I would rate French machines ahead of any Chinese designs from the 90s. We can see how robust even the 70s era Mirage airframe has been and no doubt the same is going to be true for Mirage 2000s. I doubt the same longevity can be expected from earlier Chinese designs including the J-10. It is pretty well known that the original inlet design for example was poor and had to be reinforced later with additional metal braces before they completely did away with it for the dsi inlet design. But the aircraft fundamentally is the first foray by the Chinese in a design that might be called their own. I would not trust it to be on the same level as any Western counterparts not to mention the weaponry available from the Mirage 2000 would give PAF additional flexibility

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## aftab_s81

Do we have enough funds to acquire Mirages? Remember French backed out from JF-17 avionics naming lack of funds with Pakistan (although some people claim that's because of Indian MRCA, French did not want to lose that contract).



GriffinsRule said:


> They might be the same as the J series in capability, but I would rate French machines ahead of any Chinese designs from the 90s. We can see how robust even the 70s era Mirage airframe has been and no doubt the same is going to be true for Mirage 2000s. I doubt the same longevity can be expected from earlier Chinese designs including the J-10. It is pretty well known that the original inlet design for example was poor and had to be reinforced later with additional metal braces before they completely did away with it for the dsi inlet design. But the aircraft fundamentally is the first foray by the Chinese in a design that might be called their own. I would not trust it to be on the same level as any Western counterparts not to mention the weaponry available from the Mirage 2000 would give PAF additional flexibility


----------



## MastanKhan

aftab_s81 said:


> Do we have enough funds to acquire Mirages? Remember French backed out from JF-17 avionics naming lack of funds with Pakistan (although some people claim that's because of Indian MRCA, French did not want to lose that contract).



Hi,

It was not the French who backed out---it was the Paf that deceived the french multiple times---the french gave Paf a taste of their own medicine---.

As I have stated multiple times---Rafale production line was dying---the french were desperate for an order---otherwise their fighter aircraft industry would be ruined if they lost engineers and technicians because factory was only building 1 aircraft a month---.

Paf never understood that part---they snuck in to test the rafale and Mirage 2000/9---but tried to trick the French to do the wind tunnel tests for the JF17's---.

Then to top it off---the Pak navy decided to go for the german subs rather than the french subs---.

It defies logic---you have french subs---you are trained by the french and given a certain amount of TOT---and yet you decide for the german subs---even though---the Agosta 90's were the most advanced subs of their time in the region---.

This total deception has been from pakistan's side---and it left the gate open for the enemy to sneak in---wave a bigger carrot in front of the french---and the french said by by---.

That decision by the french has hurt the JF17 program so bad---that it has yet to recover from that---it has put the JF17 program and the aircraft 10 years behind.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It was not the French who backed out---it was the Paf that deceived the french multiple times---the french gave Paf a taste of their own medicine---.
> 
> *As I have stated multiple times---Rafale production line was dying---the french were desperate for an order---otherwise their fighter aircraft industry would be ruined if they lost engineers and technicians because factory was only building 1 aircraft a month---.*
> 
> *Paf never understood that part---they snuck in to test the rafale and Mirage 2000/9---but tried to trick the French to do the wind tunnel tests for the JF17's---.*
> 
> Then to top it off---the Pak navy decided to go for the german subs rather than the french subs---.
> 
> It defies logic---you have french subs---you are trained by the french and given a certain amount of TOT---and yet you decide for the german subs---even though---the Agosta 90's were the most advanced subs of their time in the region---.
> 
> This total deception has been from pakistan's side---and it left the gate open for the enemy to sneak in---wave a bigger carrot in front of the french---and the french said by by---.
> 
> That decision by the french has hurt the JF17 program so bad---that it has yet to recover from that---it has put the JF17 program and the aircraft 10 years behind.


They never evaluated the Rafale. They never evaluated the Mirage 2000-9...that is custom built variant specifically for the UAE Air Force. 

The Rafale production has been increasing since 2002. You probably meant the sales issue part. 

French government deceived (not Dassault Aviation) PAF for the sale of 40 Mirage 2000-5s back in the 1990s....but that is a topic for another time and thread. 

The JF-17 program is largely Chinese influenced with no French input in the development area. Ask the chairman of the aerospace engineering department at Tuskegee University at Alabama....he has better answers as he was part of the pioneering team specialising in aerodynamics.


----------



## HRK

*1994*





*1995*




*1998*
*



*

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## Armchair

Let bygones be bygones, right now there is no opportunity for Rafales, and no realistic opportunity for small numbers of Mirage-2000s. What is being faced is essentially a stop-gap between the JF-17 and the Azm. 

J-10s / Su-35s / JH-7s / J-31s are perfectly capable of filling this stop-gap. 

Talking about J-10 inlet issues, which have been fixed a very, very long time ago is quite inappropriate to this conversation. J-10Cs are more than a match for F-16 Block 52s. 

Regarding Su-35s, they are not Su-30MKI. Please look at the spec sheet regarding basic parameters like TWR, wing loading. They are brand new airframe designs, brand new FBW, brand new engines (117s is essentially the same engine as on the PAKFA!). There is a reason the Chinese bought them despite having very advanced FLANKER variants themselves. 

It is time to stop the lobby that makes up stories, creates a fake narrative and forces Western aircraft down the throat of Pakistan. Now the story has reached incredulous proportions comparing retired French Mirages with modern Chinese, brand new aircraft, with AESA radars, modern jammers and IRST. Did anyone bother to even look at the specs of the engines? It may be worth to investigate the tech era and thrust ratings on the Mirage2k engines... but then the issue may not be technical, it may be psycho-sociological - the impact of the Macauley Plan at work.

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## MastanKhan

HRK said:


> *1994*
> View attachment 477576
> 
> *1995*
> View attachment 477582
> 
> *1998
> View attachment 477583
> *



Hi,

" The cash for the F16's was locked up--- "

The cash was locked up because Paf kept paying for the F16's enevn though
the sanctions were on---.

they could have stopped payments and gone a different way---.

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> Let bygones be bygones, right now there is no opportunity for Rafales, and no realistic opportunity for small numbers of Mirage-2000s. What is being faced is essentially a stop-gap between the JF-17 and the Azm.
> 
> J-10s / Su-35s / JH-7s / J-31s are perfectly capable of filling this stop-gap.
> 
> Talking about J-10 inlet issues, which have been fixed a very, very long time ago is quite inappropriate to this conversation. J-10Cs are more than a match for F-16 Block 52s.
> 
> Regarding Su-35s, they are not Su-30MKI. Please look at the spec sheet regarding basic parameters like TWR, wing loading. They are brand new airframe designs, brand new FBW, brand new engines (117s is essentially the same engine as on the PAKFA!). There is a reason the Chinese bought them despite having very advanced FLANKER variants themselves.
> 
> It is time to stop the lobby that makes up stories, creates a fake narrative and forces Western aircraft down the throat of Pakistan. Now the story has reached incredulous proportions comparing retired French Mirages with modern Chinese, brand new aircraft, with AESA radars, modern jammers and IRST. Did anyone bother to even look at the specs of the engines? It may be worth to investigate the tech era and thrust ratings on the Mirage2k engines... but then the issue may not be technical, it may be psycho-sociological - the impact of the Macauley Plan at work.




Hi,

I am pretty sure that you have heard this comment on the board---

" it brings nothing new to the table ---"----. That comment only an idiot would say that---total imbeciles would preach that concept---.

The SU35 did not bring much to the table tactically---but tactically---it filled up an immediate void that the chinese airforce had---.

Chinese air force is deperately short of tier 1 fighter air crafts---with the 35 su35's---it immediately got 2 sqdrn strength right away---.

My country's children and adults are so stupid---that they have no concept what an extra 100 aircraft of the same capability like the F16 BLK52 would do to their force projection---.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am pretty sure that you have heard this comment on the board---
> 
> " it brings nothing new to the table ---"----. That comment only an idiot would say that---total imbeciles would preach that concept---.
> 
> The SU35 did not bring much to the table tactically---but tactically---it filled up an immediate void that the chinese airforce had---.
> 
> Chinese air force is deperately short of tier 1 fighter air crafts---with the 35 su35's---it immediately got 2 sqdrn strength right away---.
> 
> *My country's children and adults are so stupid*---that they have no concept what an extra 100 aircraft of the same capability like the F16 BLK52 would do to their force projection---.


Your country's children and adults learned from you, hence as smart and stupid......(just throwing in some humour there sir., if it offends you then send me a letter to No.1 PFT)....after all the younger generation learns from the preaching of the elder generations.....


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## Thorough Pro

US can shove it's laws up its stinky arse or down its filthy throat (the same thing), why should we care about their laws?



GriffinsRule said:


> Buying Russian aircraft is now out of question for Pakistan as well for now.
> US passed a new law, “Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act” (CAATSA), that sanctions countries buying "significant" Russian defense equipment. Su-35s would certainly fall in that category.

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## Windjammer

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## GriffinsRule

Thorough Pro said:


> US can shove it's laws up its stinky arse or down its filthy throat (the same thing), why should we care about their laws?


 
We have to care because we are weak economically and dependent on the US for banking, trade, arms and basically everything in between internationally. Saying we don't care is bluster, not reality. Otherwise that oil pipeline from Iran would've been completed years ago, just as an example.
Besides its wasn't very likely for Pakistan to go buying the Su-35s at a $80M a pop anyways anytime soon so it doesn't matter. Lets see how this law pans out and what impact has on the big Russian weapon importers India and China. If they get exemption, the law would just be hot air


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## Armchair

GriffinsRule said:


> We have to care because we are weak economically and dependent on the US for banking, trade, arms and basically everything in between internationally. Saying we don't care is bluster, not reality. Otherwise that oil pipeline from Iran would've been completed years ago, just as an example.
> Besides its wasn't very likely for Pakistan to go buying the Su-35s at a $80M a pop anyways anytime soon so it doesn't matter. Lets see how this law pans out and what impact has on the big Russian weapon importers India and China. If they get exemption, the law would just be hot air



Are you an economist?
Pakistan is dependent on US for banking? Or do you mean the elites of Pakistan are dependent on ... you probably mean Western banks in general.

Where does this mindset come from where the US tells you what you can buy and where you can buy, and then people of a certain category and peculiar background show up as experts telling Pakistanis _they must. 
_
Bluster, imho, is when someone talks about a country that built nuclear weapons with hostile intent from most of the world and claim it has to follow sanctions against Russia, and cannot buy weapons from them.

What does "basically everything in between internationally" mean? Please expand, since you're such an expert in the field, educate us.

So Pak should go for used M2K which was offered (back in the day, since you are an economist, you must know there is something called the inflation rate), for 60 million a piece. And you've determined Su-35s will be 80 million a piece. Let us assume you're right about the price. One is affordable and the right aircraft, while the other is somehow unaffordable. It would be most enlightening if you can expand on why that is so.

PS: I vote for M2K. Since it will be the end of Pakistan as we know it if it buys Su-35s. What with banks worldwide refusing to trade with Pakistan, the entire West refusing to trade with her, no arms, nothing, and basically "everything" will be blocked. There is only one sane solution - buy M2Ks. Even Macauley would demand so.

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## PDF

Armchair said:


> J-10s / Su-35s / JH-7s / J-31s are perfectly capable of filling this stop-gap.


What about Eurofighter Typhoon. I know we do have financial constraints but If we do believe that Typhoons can fill up the gap, we can manage somehow. (We have good relations with Italy. And militarily UK is also a good partner.)

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## CriticalThought

Armchair said:


> Are you an economist?
> Pakistan is dependent on US for banking? Or do you mean the elites of Pakistan are dependent on ... you probably mean Western banks in general.
> 
> Where does this mindset come from where the US tells you what you can buy and where you can buy, and then people of a certain category and peculiar background show up as experts telling Pakistanis _they must.
> _
> Bluster, imho, is when someone talks about a country that built nuclear weapons with hostile intent from most of the world and claim it has to follow sanctions against Russia, and cannot buy weapons from them.
> 
> What does "basically everything in between internationally" mean? Please expand, since you're such an expert in the field, educate us.
> 
> So Pak should go for used M2K which was offered (back in the day, since you are an economist, you must know there is something called the inflation rate), for 60 million a piece. And you've determined Su-35s will be 80 million a piece. Let us assume you're right about the price. One is affordable and the right aircraft, while the other is somehow unaffordable. It would be most enlightening if you can expand on why that is so.
> 
> PS: I vote for M2K. Since it will be the end of Pakistan as we know it if it buys Su-35s. What with banks worldwide refusing to trade with Pakistan, the entire West refusing to trade with her, no arms, nothing, and basically "everything" will be blocked. There is only one sane solution - buy M2Ks. Even Macauley would demand so.



I am no economist, but I can certainly discern friend from foe. America, Britain, and France are the front runners in raising fingers at Pakistan in FATF. Any weapons bought from them, or dependent on their continuing support, would be albatross around our necks. Anyone proposing them has an agenda to push Pakistan into further subjugation. I hereby declare MastanKhan a traitor and his consorts low intelligence idiots who are attracted to mediocrity like bees to garbage.


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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> Your country's children and adults learned from you, hence as smart and stupid......(just throwing in some humour there sir., if it offends you then send me a letter to No.1 PFT)....after all the younger generation learns from the preaching of the elder generations.....



Hi,

They did not learn from me---. Otherwise I would not be talking like that over here---.

I did not learn from my older generation---with a different thinking---I was always in clash with my father---uncles---grandfather---and all the seniors---.

What they looked at and saw---looked different to me and I saw it different---.

It is still the same but has become more advanced.

When you are 16/17/18/19 and look in the eye of your father and grandfather and uncles and tell them that they are wrong in their thinking---but then I did not have enough knowledge to back up my claims---so---there used to be a massive conflict in the house---.

And as for " offends "---other than profanity and vulgarity---I don't get offended at much---.

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## Armchair

M.Musa said:


> What about Eurofighter Typhoon. I know we do have financial constraints but If we do believe that Typhoons can fill up the gap, we can manage somehow. (We have good relations with Italy. And militarily UK is also a good partner.)



Hi Musa, 

I like the Eurofighter. Always been a fan. There is a chance with the Tranche 1s it seems, but not sure about anything beyond that. Tranche 1s however don't have any upgrade potential and the PAF does need something that can strike... Still, Eurofighters, tranche 2/3 would be a major game changer, IMHO for PAF. There is nothing in its class that compares it in a2a except F-22.

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## GriffinsRule

Armchair said:


> Are you an economist?
> Pakistan is dependent on US for banking? Or do you mean the elites of Pakistan are dependent on ... you probably mean Western banks in general.
> 
> Where does this mindset come from where the US tells you what you can buy and where you can buy, and then people of a certain category and peculiar background show up as experts telling Pakistanis _they must.
> _
> Bluster, imho, is when someone talks about a country that built nuclear weapons with hostile intent from most of the world and claim it has to follow sanctions against Russia, and cannot buy weapons from them.
> 
> What does "basically everything in between internationally" mean? Please expand, since you're such an expert in the field, educate us.
> 
> So Pak should go for used M2K which was offered (back in the day, since you are an economist, you must know there is something called the inflation rate), for 60 million a piece. And you've determined Su-35s will be 80 million a piece. Let us assume you're right about the price. One is affordable and the right aircraft, while the other is somehow unaffordable. It would be most enlightening if you can expand on why that is so.
> 
> PS: I vote for M2K. Since it will be the end of Pakistan as we know it if it buys Su-35s. What with banks worldwide refusing to trade with Pakistan, the entire West refusing to trade with her, no arms, nothing, and basically "everything" will be blocked. There is only one sane solution - buy M2Ks. Even Macauley would demand so.



Yes I am an economist by education. But that is not relevant to the point I was making so I will briefly explain why you are so ill-informed on how economic sanctions work and why Pakistan can't do much at all due to its structural weaknesses (nuclear weapons don't make a country powerful). 

There are 3 types of economic sanctions, broadly speaking. First are ones being imposed against Iran/N Korea for instance where you can not do any trade or business with that country (explains why Pakistan couldn't follow through with the oil pipeline when there were sanctions prior to the Iran deal).
Secondary to those are targeted sanctions where individuals or entities are sanctioned for whatever behavior the US doesn't like and you can't do business with them. It also includes asset freezes etc if they are any within the US banking systems. 
Finally, and what this law seems to indicate, are sanctions that block your access to the US ... ie, say you are dealing with Russia in this case, even though it might be completely unrelated to US, they can block your access to the US banking facilities, markets, trade etc.

Now we all know how precarious Pakistan's economy is. You to think we could weather the storm of economic sanctions? Don't mistake prior weapon sale restrictions on Pakistan as real sanctions btw ... economic activity was allowed to continue under them.
When countries with weak macroeconmic conditions are hit with sanctions that would limit their access to international capital, the end result is detrimental impact on the financial and banking stability of those countries, stymied economic growth, inflation, political instability and even civil war or worsening humanitarian situation like shortage of medical supplies, malnutrition, etc (happened in Iraq, happening in Venezuela as an eg)
Id even add that Pakistan might fare worse as it has nothing to fall back on as is the case with Russian, Iran, Iraq (all major oil producers). What would Pakistan sell to say Russia or China? Mangoes and textiles perhaps?

Regardless of whether the sanctions are effective in meeting their intended purposes, my point was that Pakistan is not in the position to disregard US sanctions on other countries as it has way more to lose then to gain if it chooses to ignore them. I think that point would be clear to anyone, economist or not.

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## Armchair

GriffinsRule said:


> Yes I am an economist by education. But that is not relevant to the point I was making so I will briefly explain why you are so ill-informed on how economic sanctions work and why Pakistan can't do much at all due to its structural weaknesses (nuclear weapons don't make a country powerful).
> 
> There are 3 types of economic sanctions, broadly speaking. First are ones being imposed against Iran/N Korea for instance where you can not do any trade or business with that country (explains why Pakistan couldn't follow through with the oil pipeline when there were sanctions prior to the Iran deal).
> Secondary to those are targeted sanctions where individuals or entities are sanctioned for whatever behavior the US doesn't like and you can't do business with them. It also includes asset freezes etc if they are any within the US banking systems.
> Finally, and what this law seems to indicate, are sanctions that block your access to the US ... ie, say you are dealing with Russia in this case, even though it might be completely unrelated to US, they can block your access to the US banking facilities, markets, trade etc.
> 
> Now we all know how precarious Pakistan's economy is. You to think we could weather the storm of economic sanctions? Don't mistake prior weapon sale restrictions on Pakistan as real sanctions btw ... economic activity was allowed to continue under them.
> When countries with weak macroeconmic conditions are hit with sanctions that would limit their access to international capital, the end result is detrimental impact on the financial and banking stability of those countries, stymied economic growth, inflation, political instability and even civil war or worsening humanitarian situation like shortage of medical supplies, malnutrition, etc (happened in Iraq, happening in Venezuela as an eg)
> Id even add that Pakistan might fare worse as it has nothing to fall back on as is the case with Russian, Iran, Iraq (all major oil producers). What would Pakistan sell to say Russia or China? Mangoes and textiles perhaps?
> 
> Regardless of whether the sanctions are effective in meeting their intended purposes, my point was that Pakistan is not in the position to disregard US sanctions on other countries as it has way more to lose then to gain if it chooses to ignore them. I think that point would be clear to anyone, economist or not.



Actually I happen to teach Economics for a living and no, your point isn't clear nor does it make sense. CAATSA is not being taken seriously by any country. To claim CAATSA would have such a wide ranging effect on Pakistan for buying weapons from Russia is full of holes. 

You're overplaying the impact of CAATSA to push your claim of buying retired, used Mirage 2000s at 60 million dollars a piece.


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## GriffinsRule

If you don't understand how financial markets work, that is fine. As for your claim, its not like I am somehow going to make money if PAF bought M2Ks ... I dont need to push anything, just expressing my opinion. But I can bet PAF will not be buying any Sukhois anytime soon if ever (nothing against the jet). If the being $80M a pop wasn't reason enough, CAATSA now will certainly kill any chance of it happening. You can believe otherwise if it suits you

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## Shabi1

I attended a World Bank lecture several years ago, and the lecturer was very candid that most of their economic measurements with regards to Pakistan do not hold. Reason being it's undocumented black economy which is estimated to be equal if not greater than the actual economy, to the outsider it seems like a failed economy but if you go to the people level it's a thriving economy, new luxury housing projects popping up, record number of cars being bought, booming real estate and consumer markets etc.

We asked about comparisons with the then Greek Debt crisis of 2007-8 where Greece was unable to repay loans. He said in terms of Greece they have been scratching their heads as there are no easy fixes but Pakistan's problems can be fixed with the right management, if the black economy is documented and policies adopted for local growth things will turnover really quick. And this optimism is at a time when CPEC wasn't started and impact of terrorism was at it's peak.

http://tns.thenews.com.pk/dynamics-black-economy/#.WxDuFkiFPIU

Also a weaker PKR vs Dollar is regrettable and drives up inflation but if it is kept at this level and policies managed right it will also mean Pakistani exports have the potential to be cheaper than China (RMB artificially undervalued), India and Bangladesh. So in the long run it could be utilized for a plus.

And for a reminder to every one who think our low foreign currency reserve situation is really bad, when Pakistan tested it's nukes in 1998 we had less than $400m. If we can go through and recover from that without sacrificing our defence needs than we can do it again.

For the big ticket purchases, they are done on credit financing, Pakistan does not need to pay it all upfront. A budget allocation is made to pay it over a number of years. Sovereignty and defence are upmost priorities, if the leaders decide their is a urgent need they can still make big purchases, will put a strain on the budgets but it will not shatter the economy as what is being proposed.

Pakistan had roughly a dozen F-104s but they maintained a huge psychological impact during the war, the possibility of their presence was a huge risk factor for InAF planners. PAF at the moment has it's hands full with too many things but if it needs to it can request for purchase of a small number of high performance air superiority optimized fighters to be employed in CAP the same way as the F-104s. It's a matter of how long PAF can hold out, longer it waits the options get better. And despite whats being touted the edge InAF enjoyed is downgraded by their operational issues, so there is room for waiting. Compound that with the fact that Pakistan's tactical nukes have made war too costly for any aggressor.

Buying weapons is easy maintaining them in time of conflict is difficult. Pakistan has been at a state of war over the last couple of years and it's admirable that it's procurement focus is on sustainable platforms where it can endure a conflict of attrition. Case being the huge F-16 supply reserves and availability of spares from Turkey, large AMRAAM order compared to fleet size, JF-17s fully sustainable with local munitions and spares etc. There is a room for a third platform which is a matter of a few years. US doesnt have restrictions on Pakistani F-16s as it once had as they are no longer the top of the line variants with restrictive technologies, it's only a matter of price and spares are unrestricted from third parties.

Compare that with India, its procurement methods have created nightmares, and has a war time reserve down to just 10 days, aircraft availability will go down drastically as it's platforms are maintenance heavy and multi sourced.
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...upply-shortfall-cag-report-1025676-2017-07-21

Saudia and other rich Arab states have bought the best possible platforms money can buy but since not much attention paid to capacity development and short cuts taken in buying off the shelf, in time of conflict amongst them self or against Israel it is unlikely they will get the spares from US to sustain them for more than a few days. Case being how Saudia has turned to Chinese UCAV use in Yemen, as it was too expensive and unsustainable to use fighters. Same for how UAE decided to stick to it's M2ks and squeeze their operational lives in Yemen.

Sonic booms over Amritsar incident, putting opponent in panic. There is also the incident of a Gnat landing to avoid a F-104 but was caught by locals.

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## Signalian

Shabi1 said:


> Pakistan had roughly a dozen F-104s but they maintained a huge psychological impact during the war, the possibility of their presence was a huge risk factor for InAF planners.



Only a stealth fighter can give this edge now, if PAF inducts and trains on stealth fighter, tactics and strategy before IAF does.

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## Shabi1

Signalian said:


> Only a stealth fighter can give this edge now, if PAF inducts and trains on stealth fighter, tactics and strategy before IAF does.



A low observable platform that can be sustained in time of war with super cruise, heavily data linked with multiple platforms/sensors and ability to operate in a heavy EW jamming environment. Basically a fighter to harass the enemy or greet them in Pakistani aerospace. Not needed in large numbers, perhaps a single sqd that could be spread out in pairs in strategic locations.

I would use the term low observable because nothing is truly stealth these days because of advancement in detection capabilities.

Hence the argument that Pakistan should wait longer and skip induction of a new high end platform like SU-35, J-10 and Eurofighter even if it gets the financing arrangements. But keep evaluating them so that it could continue to learn of developments. Untill a suitable next gen platform not ready if it needs to buy jets to maintain operational levels than should be of the existing types F-16 or JF-17 because they are already extensively integrated.

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## Imran Khan

Signalian said:


> Only a stealth fighter can give this edge now, if PAF inducts and trains on stealth fighter, tactics and strategy before IAF does.


in other words only stealth fighter can secure our sky . i am fully agree with you sir

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## syed_yusuf

A squadron of j20 next version will do the trick temporarily 

Why next version, simple, it will need super cruise and TV engine

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## denel

Imran Khan said:


> in other words only stealth fighter can secure our sky . i am fully agree with you sir


I dont agree; stealth is defeatable if you study it.

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## Signalian

Shabi1 said:


> A low observable platform that can be sustained in time of war with super cruise, heavily data linked with multiple platforms/sensors and ability to operate in a heavy EW jamming environment. Basically a fighter to harass the enemy or greet them in Pakistani aerospace. Not needed in large numbers, perhaps a single sqd that could be spread out in pairs in strategic locations.
> 
> I would use the term low observable because nothing is truly stealth these days because of advancement in detection capabilities.
> 
> Hence the argument that Pakistan should wait longer and skip induction of a new high end platform like SU-35, J-10 and Eurofighter even if it gets the financing arrangements. But keep evaluating them so that it could continue to learn of developments. Untill a suitable next gen platform not ready if it needs to buy jets to maintain operational levels than should be of the existing types F-16 or JF-17 because they are already extensively integrated.



There is nothing in PAF inventory that can come up to range and payload of SU30MKI and then Rafale. Its PAF's good luck that IAF has gone for a 4.5 gen plane (Rafale) instead of inducting a 5th gen and induction will take some time along with Tejas. IAF actually should have gone for 5th gen as there are already lots of 4.5 gen, 4 gen and 3 gen aircrafts in service. IAF can win a war of attrition as its inducting more SU30MKI. Meanwhile there are alot of 4 Gen lying around, Mig-29 and Mirage-2000. The strike aircraft like Jaguar and Mig-27 can take over strike roles from SU30MKI and Mirage-2000, when needed. 

PAF can only sustain a war of attrition if reserve JF-17's are put in place, total number going 300+. This actually limits PAF combat abilities to a defensive war, since JF-17 is has compromises in the form of payload and range. The F-16 will be used only when there is no other choice, its very capable and threatening but its a white elephant for PAF. As soon as spares start to dwindle down and a few Block 52+ are hit and destroyed, the remaining will be used sparingly.

The 5th gen aircraft not only brings a psychological factor of dominance in the skies and a step ahead of anything that IAF could offer, it also brings an situational awareness factor on the battlefield while armed, unlike unarmed AWACS. Of course its not invisible on the radar, but it will force enemy to switch on their radars. Enemy may try using IRST but IRST has limitations in range also. 5th gen will have powerful jammers and will give PAF the ability to fight high altitude air combat while the F-16's and JF-17's handle medium and low altitude combat scenarios. 

Two more major roles that 5th gen fighter will be expected to perform are: It would also be expected to sneak across border and bomb enemy and secondly it will be expected to sneak as close as possible to AWACS and threaten to bring it down through long range/BVR AAM.

A formation of 2 x 5th Gen aircraft and 4 x JF-17, with JF-17 leading and 5th Gen aircraft at the rear, data linked with JF-17 , guiding and complimenting JF-17 with long range BVR AAM's of 5th gen fighter will give a headache to IAF air formations, since 5th gen in the air would enhance survival factor of JF-17 by more than 50% making a light aircraft like JF-17 very lethal. Even if JF-17 are shot down, it could be replaced, unlike F-16 or Mirage III/V. 

To some extent, a 5th gen also fits in Mastan Khan scenario requiring long range bombing mission, performed through efficient use of fuel through selecting correct altitude without compromising detection and carrying strike payload inside its belly, it will have more chances of survivability due to stealthy profile, jammers, modern CM's and other EW equipment.

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## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> Yes I am an economist by education. But that is not relevant to the point I was making so I will briefly explain why you are so ill-informed on how economic sanctions work and why Pakistan can't do much at all due to its structural weaknesses (nuclear weapons don't make a country powerful).
> 
> There are 3 types of economic sanctions, broadly speaking. First are ones being imposed against Iran/N Korea for instance where you can not do any trade or business with that country (explains why Pakistan couldn't follow through with the oil pipeline when there were sanctions prior to the Iran deal).
> Secondary to those are targeted sanctions where individuals or entities are sanctioned for whatever behavior the US doesn't like and you can't do business with them. It also includes asset freezes etc if they are any within the US banking systems.
> Finally, and what this law seems to indicate, are sanctions that block your access to the US ... ie, say you are dealing with Russia in this case, even though it might be completely unrelated to US, they can block your access to the US banking facilities, markets, trade etc.
> 
> Now we all know how precarious Pakistan's economy is. You to think we could weather the storm of economic sanctions? Don't mistake prior weapon sale restrictions on Pakistan as real sanctions btw ... economic activity was allowed to continue under them.
> When countries with weak macroeconmic conditions are hit with sanctions that would limit their access to international capital, the end result is detrimental impact on the financial and banking stability of those countries, stymied economic growth, inflation, political instability and even civil war or worsening humanitarian situation like shortage of medical supplies, malnutrition, etc (happened in Iraq, happening in Venezuela as an eg)
> Id even add that Pakistan might fare worse as it has nothing to fall back on as is the case with Russian, Iran, Iraq (all major oil producers). What would Pakistan sell to say Russia or China? Mangoes and textiles perhaps?
> 
> Regardless of whether the sanctions are effective in meeting their intended purposes, my point was that Pakistan is not in the position to disregard US sanctions on other countries as it has way more to lose then to gain if it chooses to ignore them. I think that point would be clear to anyone, economist or not.



Hi,

Thank you for an excellent post---. You pulled the pedestal from under the feet of many.

Your background is extremely important in any conversation---because it tells the one listening why are you saying what you are saying---.

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## Armchair

Shabi1 said:


> I attended a World Bank lecture several years ago, and the lecturer was very candid that most of their economic measurements with regards to Pakistan do not hold. Reason being it's undocumented black economy which is estimated to be equal if not greater than the actual economy, to the outsider it seems like a failed economy but if you go to the people level it's a thriving economy, new luxury housing projects popping up, record number of cars being bought, booming real estate and consumer markets etc.
> 
> We asked about comparisons with the then Greek Debt crisis of 2007-8 where Greece was unable to repay loans. He said in terms of Greece they have been scratching their heads as there are no easy fixes but Pakistan's problems can be fixed with the right management, if the black economy is documented and policies adopted for local growth things will turnover really quick. And this optimism is at a time when CPEC wasn't started and impact of terrorism was at it's peak.
> 
> http://tns.thenews.com.pk/dynamics-black-economy/#.WxDuFkiFPIU
> 
> Also a weaker PKR vs Dollar is regrettable and drives up inflation but if it is kept at this level and policies managed right it will also mean Pakistani exports have the potential to be cheaper than China (RMB artificially undervalued), India and Bangladesh. So in the long run it could be utilized for a plus.
> 
> And for a reminder to every one who think our low foreign currency reserve situation is really bad, when Pakistan tested it's nukes in 1998 we had less than $400m. If we can go through and recover from that without sacrificing our defence needs than we can do it again.
> 
> For the big ticket purchases, they are done on credit financing, Pakistan does not need to pay it all upfront. A budget allocation is made to pay it over a number of years. Sovereignty and defence are upmost priorities, if the leaders decide their is a urgent need they can still make big purchases, will put a strain on the budgets but it will not shatter the economy as what is being proposed.
> 
> Pakistan had roughly a dozen F-104s but they maintained a huge psychological impact during the war, the possibility of their presence was a huge risk factor for InAF planners. PAF at the moment has it's hands full with too many things but if it needs to it can request for purchase of a small number of high performance air superiority optimized fighters to be employed in CAP the same way as the F-104s. It's a matter of how long PAF can hold out, longer it waits the options get better. And despite whats being touted the edge InAF enjoyed is downgraded by their operational issues, so there is room for waiting. Compound that with the fact that Pakistan's tactical nukes have made war too costly for any aggressor.
> 
> Buying weapons is easy maintaining them in time of conflict is difficult. Pakistan has been at a state of war over the last couple of years and it's admirable that it's procurement focus is on sustainable platforms where it can endure a conflict of attrition. Case being the huge F-16 supply reserves and availability of spares from Turkey, large AMRAAM order compared to fleet size, JF-17s fully sustainable with local munitions and spares etc. There is a room for a third platform which is a matter of a few years. US doesnt have restrictions on Pakistani F-16s as it once had as they are no longer the top of the line variants with restrictive technologies, it's only a matter of price and spares are unrestricted from third parties.
> 
> Compare that with India, its procurement methods have created nightmares, and has a war time reserve down to just 10 days, aircraft availability will go down drastically as it's platforms are maintenance heavy and multi sourced.
> https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...upply-shortfall-cag-report-1025676-2017-07-21
> 
> Saudia and other rich Arab states have bought the best possible platforms money can buy but since not much attention paid to capacity development and short cuts taken in buying off the shelf, in time of conflict amongst them self or against Israel it is unlikely they will get the spares from US to sustain them for more than a few days. Case being how Saudia has turned to Chinese UCAV use in Yemen, as it was too expensive and unsustainable to use fighters. Same for how UAE decided to stick to it's M2ks and squeeze their operational lives in Yemen.
> 
> Sonic booms over Amritsar incident, putting opponent in panic. There is also the incident of a Gnat landing to avoid a F-104 but was caught by locals.



I can definitely agree to that. While working on an IMF funded project, I was involved in surveying Pakistani SMEs. It is perfectly possible that the majority of the output generated in Pakistan is black. There may even be cases of showing lower output in production than warranted to pay lower taxes, or because x, y and z want to make money off the production.

With the CPEC Pakistan is in a clear path to serious economic growth. I very seriously doubt US CAATSA related embargoes, even if ever applied (unlikely given Pompeo and the coming Iran scenario), would break the back of the Pakistani economy. Nor that international lenders would stop lending... _These are just scare stories for kids._

F-16s were the new F-104 starfighters. They were few in number but scared the Indians. Pakistan needs that spear tip, specially in a limited skirmish. I doubt buying old M2Ks would serve that function. J-20s / J-31s / J-xx / Su-35 / Eurofighter would.

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## MastanKhan

Signalian said:


> There is nothing in PAF inventory that can come up to range and payload of SU30MKI and then Rafale. Its PAF's good luck that IAF has gone for a 4.5 gen plane (Rafale) instead of inducting a 5th gen and induction will take some time along with Tejas. IAF actually should have gone for 5th gen as there are already lots of 4.5 gen, 4 gen and 3 gen aircrafts in service. IAF can win a war of attrition as its inducting more SU30MKI. Meanwhile there are alot of 4 Gen lying around, Mig-29 and Mirage-2000. The strike aircraft like Jaguar and Mig-27 can take over strike roles from SU30MKI and Mirage-2000, when needed.
> 
> PAF can only sustain a war of attrition if reserve JF-17's are put in place, total number going 300+. This actually limits PAF combat abilities to a defensive war, since JF-17 is has compromises in the form of payload and range. The F-16 will be used only when there is no other choice, its very capable and threatening but its a white elephant for PAF. As soon as spares start to dwindle down and a few Block 52+ are hit and destroyed, the remaining will be used sparingly.
> 
> The 5th gen aircraft not only brings a psychological factor of dominance in the skies and a step ahead of anything that IAF could offer, it also brings an situational awareness factor on the battlefield while armed, unlike unarmed AWACS. Of course its not invisible on the radar, but it will force enemy to switch on their radars. Enemy may try using IRST but IRST has limitations in range also. 5th gen will have powerful jammers and will give PAF the ability to fight high altitude air combat while the F-16's and JF-17's handle medium and low altitude combat scenarios.
> 
> Two more major roles that 5th gen fighter will be expected to perform are: It would also be expected to sneak across border and bomb enemy and secondly it will be expected to sneak as close as possible to AWACS and threaten to bring it down through long range/BVR AAM.
> 
> A formation of 2 x 5th Gen aircraft and 4 x JF-17, with JF-17 leading and 5th Gen aircraft at the rear, data linked with JF-17 , guiding and complimenting JF-17 with long range BVR AAM's of 5th gen fighter will give a headache to IAF air formations, since 5th gen in the air would enhance survival factor of JF-17 by more than 50% making a light aircraft like JF-17 very lethal. Even if JF-17 are shot down, it could be replaced, unlike F-16 or Mirage III/V.
> 
> To some extent, a 5th gen also fits in Mastan Khan scenario requiring long range bombing mission, performed through efficient use of fuel through selecting correct altitude without compromising detection and carrying strike payload inside its belly, it will have more chances of survivability due to stealthy profile, jammers, modern CM's and other EW equipment.




Hi,

What an excellent post---.

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What an excellent post---.



Signalian also makes an important point about what is now definitively the "Mastan Khan scenario" that for strike a 5th gen would not need to fly low... I wonder if that is so or not. Needs more discussion I think.

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## GriffinsRule

Armchair said:


> I can definitely agree to that. While working on an IMF funded project, I was involved in surveying Pakistani SMEs. It is perfectly possible that the majority of the output generated in Pakistan is black. There may even be cases of showing lower output in production than warranted to pay lower taxes, or because x, y and z want to make money off the production.
> 
> With the CPEC Pakistan is in a clear path to serious economic growth. I very seriously doubt US CAATSA related embargoes, even if ever applied (unlikely given Pompeo and the coming Iran scenario), would break the back of the Pakistani economy. Nor that international lenders would stop lending... These are just scare stories for kids.
> 
> F-16s were the new F-104 starfighters. They were few in number but scared the Indians. Pakistan needs that spear tip, specially in a limited skirmish. I doubt buying old M2Ks would serve that function. J-20s / J-31s / J-xx / Su-35 / Eurofighter would.



CAATSA related sanctions are meant to keep Russian exports down by threatening retaliatory sanctions (limited in scope) to countries thinking of importing Russian weapons. They are not meant to break the back of anyone but make the decision painful and uneconomical. Pakistan has to consider the pros and cons of any such transaction and will abstain from purchasing Su-35s or other significant weapon systems like S-400s for eg (not even sure Russians would have sold them to begin with). 

You missed the crux of my post looks like. Regardless of what Pakistan's "Underground economy" is like, its financial health is precarious and highly prone to failure were there to be economic sanctions on us. Therefore before we can take our stance as a country we need to bring all of the economic activity under one umbrella. 

Buying used M2Ks serves as a quick numbers fillers if further used F-16s are unlikely. They also solve Pakistan's issue with not being able to carry certain weapons on the F-16s and JF-17s and would allow Mirage 5s to be retired. I don't believe ex-Qatari examples will be expensive as being made out here.


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## Armchair

GriffinsRule said:


> CAATSA related sanctions are meant to keep Russian exports down by threatening retaliatory sanctions (limited in scope) to countries thinking of importing Russian weapons. They are not meant to break the back of anyone but make the decision painful and uneconomical. Pakistan has to consider the pros and cons of any such transaction and will abstain from purchasing Su-35s or other significant weapon systems like S-400s for eg (not even sure Russians would have sold them to begin with).
> 
> You missed the crux of my post looks like. Regardless of what Pakistan's "Underground economy" is like, its financial health is precarious and highly prone to failure were there to be economic sanctions on us. Therefore before we can take our stance as a country we need to bring all of the economic activity under one umbrella.
> 
> Buying used M2Ks serves as a quick numbers fillers if further used F-16s are unlikely. They also solve Pakistan's issue with not being able to carry certain weapons on the F-16s and JF-17s and would allow Mirage 5s to be retired. I don't believe ex-Qatari examples will be expensive as being made out here.



I don't know what planet you live in and where you work as an economist, and where you've gotten your knowledge of financial markets, but:

1. Sanctions like CAATSA do not mean global financial markets stop lending (claim you made)
2. Economies do not collapse due to such sanctions (claim you made)

You sound like a poster-boy for American sanctions. And no, Pakistan's financial position is not going to collapse anytime. Not with the CPEC and China acting as a de facto guarantor.

Other than these patently false claims - *the mature question* is - should Pakistan risk the chance of sanctions that could cut aid money? (not that the country will collapse...)

Given that Pakistan is seeking a multi-lateral world and is seeking a more independent foreign policy (i.e. not to continue to be a colony of the US), it is very likely that just like Turkey, Pakistan will not allow the US to determine its foreign policy.

There is of course the US-backed lobbies that will say otherwise. Who knows?

Let us suppose that Pakistan doesn't go for the Russian fighter, and lets suppose - stops buying RD-93s too. Even in this case, you haven't replied to my response to your claims about the Chinese fighters available.

Buying M2Ks is a fools errand. At 3 times the CPFH of F-16s, old airframes and a new type (with all the sunk costs involved), ...

Anyways, you are entitled to your opinions. I've already stated mine. Let's not spoil the show for all the other forum members on this great thread.

A Mastan Khan moment for PAF in terms of the Su-35: PAF could get these birds for a bargain deal. Russia would probably be very happy to sell just to go one-up on the Americans.


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## The Accountant

Armchair said:


> I don't know what planet you live in and where you work as an economist, and where you've gotten your knowledge of financial markets, but:
> 
> 1. Sanctions like CAATSA do not mean global financial markets stop lending (claim you made)
> 2. Economies do not collapse due to such sanctions (claim you made)
> 
> You sound like a poster-boy for American sanctions. And no, Pakistan's financial position is not going to collapse anytime. Not with the CPEC and China acting as a de facto guarantor.
> 
> Other than these patently false claims - *the mature question* is - should Pakistan risk the chance of sanctions that could cut aid money? (not that the country will collapse...)
> 
> Given that Pakistan is seeking a multi-lateral world and is seeking a more independent foreign policy (i.e. not to continue to be a colony of the US), it is very likely that just like Turkey, Pakistan will not allow the US to determine its foreign policy.
> 
> There is of course the US-backed lobbies that will say otherwise. Who knows?
> 
> Let us suppose that Pakistan doesn't go for the Russian fighter, and lets suppose - stops buying RD-93s too. Even in this case, you haven't replied to my response to your claims about the Chinese fighters available.
> 
> Buying M2Ks is a fools errand. At 3 times the CPFH of F-16s, old airframes and a new type (with all the sunk costs involved), ...
> 
> Anyways, you are entitled to your opinions. I've already stated mine. Let's not spoil the show for all the other forum members on this great thread.
> 
> A Mastan Khan moment for PAF in terms of the Su-35: PAF could get these birds for a bargain deal. Russia would probably be very happy to sell just to go one-up on the Americans.


Brother unfortunately you have no idea what you are talking about ...

@GriffinsRule has rightly said about the way these economic sanctions work ... For your ease of understanding US is world central bank and have control almost all international transactions including our most of the transactions with china and US can impose resteictions on banks that they cannot process any Pakistan based transations .. in such a scenario we will be economically isolated from the whole world ...

You can understand it like State bank of pakistan instruct all the banks to not to transfer any money pertaining to you then you cant do any transations other than cash ... You cant even get salary

Good thing with iran is that they sale oil which is global product and can be traded in barter but Pakistan cant do the same with textile ...

However on the other side US has its limitations too ... Too much restrictions and they will loose reliablity of dollar and countries will start looking for a second global currency for which China is also working...

Anyways this is all off topic so lets close it here ...

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> Signalian also makes an important point about what is now definitively the "Mastan Khan scenario" that for strike a 5th gen would not need to fly low... I wonder if that is so or not. Needs more discussion I think.



Hi,

The 5th gen is a high flying aircraft---like after colleague Aamir Hussein had post awhile ago an F22 scenario video about 1 hr long---.

The 5th gen would be flying high---and it would be the spearhead---. It will find and locate the target---and thru data link---it will launch the weapons from a 4th gen aircraft that is flying way behind it.

The weapons would be launched from a standoff distance---and then those aircraft would bug off along with the 5th gen aircraft---.

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## CriticalThought

Signalian said:


> There is nothing in PAF inventory that can come up to range and payload of SU30MKI and then Rafale. Its PAF's good luck that IAF has gone for a 4.5 gen plane (Rafale) instead of inducting a 5th gen and induction will take some time along with Tejas. IAF actually should have gone for 5th gen as there are already lots of 4.5 gen, 4 gen and 3 gen aircrafts in service. IAF can win a war of attrition as its inducting more SU30MKI. Meanwhile there are alot of 4 Gen lying around, Mig-29 and Mirage-2000. The strike aircraft like Jaguar and Mig-27 can take over strike roles from SU30MKI and Mirage-2000, when needed.
> 
> PAF can only sustain a war of attrition if reserve JF-17's are put in place, total number going 300+. This actually limits PAF combat abilities to a defensive war, since JF-17 is has compromises in the form of payload and range. The F-16 will be used only when there is no other choice, its very capable and threatening but its a white elephant for PAF. As soon as spares start to dwindle down and a few Block 52+ are hit and destroyed, the remaining will be used sparingly.
> 
> The 5th gen aircraft not only brings a psychological factor of dominance in the skies and a step ahead of anything that IAF could offer, it also brings an situational awareness factor on the battlefield while armed, unlike unarmed AWACS. Of course its not invisible on the radar, but it will force enemy to switch on their radars. Enemy may try using IRST but IRST has limitations in range also. 5th gen will have powerful jammers and will give PAF the ability to fight high altitude air combat while the F-16's and JF-17's handle medium and low altitude combat scenarios.
> 
> Two more major roles that 5th gen fighter will be expected to perform are: It would also be expected to sneak across border and bomb enemy and secondly it will be expected to sneak as close as possible to AWACS and threaten to bring it down through long range/BVR AAM.
> 
> A formation of 2 x 5th Gen aircraft and 4 x JF-17, with JF-17 leading and 5th Gen aircraft at the rear, data linked with JF-17 , guiding and complimenting JF-17 with long range BVR AAM's of 5th gen fighter will give a headache to IAF air formations, since 5th gen in the air would enhance survival factor of JF-17 by more than 50% making a light aircraft like JF-17 very lethal. Even if JF-17 are shot down, it could be replaced, unlike F-16 or Mirage III/V.
> 
> To some extent, a 5th gen also fits in Mastan Khan scenario requiring long range bombing mission, performed through efficient use of fuel through selecting correct altitude without compromising detection and carrying strike payload inside its belly, it will have more chances of survivability due to stealthy profile, jammers, modern CM's and other EW equipment.




The Block 1 and 2 have been designed to be MKI killers. Block 3 will be designed with Rafale in mind. At that point, any significant gap will be plugged in via off the shelf purchase.

It is too early to comment on 5th gen and its role in PAF. But understand this: against a multi layered, well designed, and well implemented modern radar and AEWACS defence, even the F-22 can't do anything. It needs supporting elements to overcome enemy defences to a point where it's stealth capabilities give it superiority.

One could present the recent Israeli use of F-35 as a counter-argument. But the fact of the matter is that Israel and Russia held a meeting in the days before the Israeli strike. The full might of Russian air defence has not been brought to bear against Israel.

Possibly the only disconcerting element of the Israeli raid was the targeting of the switched off SAM site. This is actually standard practice against a superior enemy. But rather than showing any super secret capability of the F-35, it merely shows advanced remote sensing - either through sattelites, AEWACs, or possibly even the F-35. Standard decoy tactics can be used in this case to confuse the enemy.


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## mosu

Is this news true?


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## ziaulislam

mosu said:


> Is this news true?
> View attachment 478036


no
everything is false until announced

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## CriticalThought

ziaulislam said:


> no
> everything is false until announced



Who are these 'Pakistan Defence Command' guys anyways? Is this related to defence.pk ?


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## ziaulislam

CriticalThought said:


> Who are these 'Pakistan Defence Command' guys anyways? Is this related to defence.pk ?


who cares


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## Signalian

CriticalThought said:


> The Block 1 and 2 have been designed to be MKI killers. Block 3 will be designed with Rafale in mind. At that point, any significant gap will be plugged in via off the shelf purchase.
> 
> It is too early to comment on 5th gen and its role in PAF. But understand this: against a multi layered, well designed, and well implemented modern radar and AEWACS defence, even the F-22 can't do anything. It needs supporting elements to overcome enemy defences to a point where it's stealth capabilities give it superiority.
> 
> One could present the recent Israeli use of F-35 as a counter-argument. But the fact of the matter is that Israel and Russia held a meeting in the days before the Israeli strike. The full might of Russian air defence has not been brought to bear against Israel.
> 
> Possibly the only disconcerting element of the Israeli raid was the targeting of the switched off SAM site. This is actually standard practice against a superior enemy. But rather than showing any super secret capability of the F-35, it merely shows advanced remote sensing - either through sattelites, AEWACs, or possibly even the F-35. Standard decoy tactics can be used in this case to confuse the enemy.



The issue is not taking out an MKI, even an F-7PG can do that with the correct use of engagement tactics in air combat along-with other supporting factors. The issue is the role of MKI in IAF, which any aircraft in PAF cannot replicate or come close. When compared with MKI, F-16's payload and range is small, JF-17's payload and range is even smaller. 

When talking about range, Pakistan has a small air space east-west, longitudinal. Still the F-16's belly pylon and JF-17's wet pylons are mostly seen with fuel tanks and the amount of fuel tanks define the combat radius for that particular sortie. PAF wouldnt even need a refueller tanker if PAF had heavy aircrafts like F-18's, F-15's, SU30's etc, or fighter aircrafts with buddy refuelling capability.F-16 Block 52+ have CFT's to enhance range, but these are only 18 in number and at any given time, its very hard that all 18 will be in air, probably 8 and out of necessity 12-14 at any given time. Its not easy to press hard one squadron and expect just this squadron to carry out missions 24/7. 

Payload is another issue; volley of AAM's, a second strike capability after firing of 2-3-4 AAM's at 1 or 2 bogies is possible only if aircraft is already armed with 8 or more AAM's, but that's not the only issue. For strike role, ability to carry extra A2G missiles like ARM for SEAD, AShW for naval warfare, TV-guided like AGM-65 for supporting ground forces, PGM's, LGB's etc. Smaller formations, with decent payload for self defence and strike, 4-aircraft formations, using element of surprise, instead of bigger formations like 8 aircrafts or repeated strikes which loses element of surprise. If out of 7 pylons, 2-3 for fuel, 1 for Tgt/EW-pod...how many are left behind for ordnance and redundancy. 

One more thing, a lot of factors practically matter, an aircraft (lets say JF-17) can stay in air for 45 minutes and experiences combat after 35 minutes, it will be low on ordnance (after firing off AAM's) and low on fuel too. Other aircraft in the FOB zone are maybe F-7's as alert fighters and take off for combat. The JF-17's need to get back in air again after re-fuelling and re-arming. Due to high enemy activity in the air, its risky to fly a refueller tanker in this air space. If there was an aircraft with more fuel capacity, and could stay in air for 20-25 minutes more, it will only be needed to re-armed, and infact if it could carry more ordnance, it wouldn't even need to land for refuelling or re-arming and only get complimented by F-7 or Mirages for air defence of the air space. 

Using different types of aircrafts against IAF is one of the tactics PAF will use, because MKI fighter may need to revise tactics in mind again and again when countering F-16, JF-17, F-7 and Mirage, all 4 aircrafts with different strong and weak points in air combat. This confuses the enemy pilot more when thoughts hopping in his head how to defend himself and then attack different types of aircrafts using separate tactics for every type, making decisions in milli-seconds time frame. 

IAF will do the same with MKI and Rafale entering Pakistan airspace repeatedly, complimented with Mirage-2000 sometimes and other times with Mig-27 or Jaguar, if its assumed that Mig-29 will carry out air defence duty along with Mig-21.


Coming to stealth factor; I wont go in much detail now,

Since you said that F-22 will have a hard time against a strong AD network (ground and air), then wouldnt the possibility of penetrating this air space and mission success for an F-22 will be greater than of F-15E or F-16C or F-18 E? These teen-series will be detected and shot down sooner than a the Raptor and the raptor just might make it. 

Your point just strengthens the argument in favour of 5th gen; means that 4 and 4.5 gen hold no chance in this case, and a 5th gen is necessity for a possibility of success. Otherwise its just ground to ground strikes, don't send aircrafts, in-fact use ballistic missiles. 

and this also brings a very important factor of an armed EW aircraft like EA-18G, and the use of such systems on a 5th gen aircraft making the 5th gen EW aircraft more lethal for the adversary with its stealthy profile.

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The 5th gen is a high flying aircraft---like after colleague Aamir Hussein had post awhile ago an F22 scenario video about 1 hr long---.
> 
> The 5th gen would be flying high---and it would be the spearhead---. It will find and locate the target---and thru data link---it will launch the weapons from a 4th gen aircraft that is flying way behind it.
> 
> The weapons would be launched from a standoff distance---and then those aircraft would bug off along with the 5th gen aircraft---.



Interesting but remember the scenario - attacking Mumbai. If the 5th gen is say, the Azm or the J-31, what aircraft would be the 4th gen that does what you say it will do? 

Or perhaps the 5th gen could fly high, alone and launch the attack themselves and return back to base... but this will depend on what munitions are used and whether the weapons bay fits.

Additionally, Chinese 5th gen are not likely to be as stealthy as American 5th gen. Which means they would be easier to detect, and the powerful radars on Indian warships may just be able to see the 5th gen flying high.



Signalian said:


> The issue is not taking out an MKI, even an F-7PG can do that with the correct use of engagement tactics in air combat along-with other supporting factors. The issue is the role of MKI in IAF, which any aircraft in PAF cannot replicate or come close. When compared with MKI, F-16's payload and range is small, JF-17's payload and range is even smaller.
> 
> When talking about range, Pakistan has a small air space east-west, longitudinal. Still the F-16's belly pylon and JF-17's wet pylons are mostly seen with fuel tanks and the amount of fuel tanks define the combat radius for that particular sortie. PAF wouldnt even need a refueller tanker if PAF had heavy aircrafts like F-18's, F-15's, SU30's etc, or fighter aircrafts with buddy refuelling capability.F-16 Block 52+ have CFT's to enhance range, but these are only 18 in number and at any given time, its very hard that all 18 will be in air, probably 8 and out of necessity 12-14 at any given time. Its not easy to press hard one squadron and expect just this squadron to carry out missions 24/7.
> 
> Payload is another issue; volley of AAM's, a second strike capability after firing of 2-3-4 AAM's at 1 or 2 bogies is possible only if aircraft is already armed with 8 or more AAM's, but that's not the only issue. For strike role, ability to carry extra A2G missiles like ARM for SEAD, AShW for naval warfare, TV-guided like AGM-65 for supporting ground forces, PGM's, LGB's etc. Smaller formations, with decent payload for self defence and strike, 4-aircraft formations, using element of surprise, instead of bigger formations like 8 aircrafts or repeated strikes which loses element of surprise. If out of 7 pylons, 2-3 for fuel, 1 for Tgt/EW-pod...how many are left behind for ordnance and redundancy.
> 
> One more thing, a lot of factors practically matter, an aircraft (lets say JF-17) can stay in air for 45 minutes and experiences combat after 35 minutes, it will be low on ordnance (after firing off AAM's) and low on fuel too. Other aircraft in the FOB zone are maybe F-7's as alert fighters and take off for combat. The JF-17's need to get back in air again after re-fuelling and re-arming. Due to high enemy activity in the air, its risky to fly a refueller tanker in this air space. If there was an aircraft with more fuel capacity, and could stay in air for 20-25 minutes more, it will only be needed to re-armed, and infact if it could carry more ordnance, it wouldn't even need to land for refuelling or re-arming and only get complimented by F-7 or Mirages for air defence of the air space.
> 
> Using different types of aircrafts against IAF is one of the tactics PAF will use, because MKI fighter may need to revise tactics in mind again and again when countering F-16, JF-17, F-7 and Mirage, all 4 aircrafts with different strong and weak points in air combat. This confuses the enemy pilot more when thoughts hopping in his head how to defend himself and then attack different types of aircrafts using separate tactics for every type, making decisions in milli-seconds time frame.
> 
> IAF will do the same with MKI and Rafale entering Pakistan airspace repeatedly, complimented with Mirage-2000 sometimes and other times with Mig-27 or Jaguar, if its assumed that Mig-29 will carry out air defence duty along with Mig-21.
> 
> 
> Coming to stealth factor; I wont go in much detail now,
> 
> Since you said that F-22 will have a hard time against a strong AD network (ground and air), then wouldnt the possibility of penetrating this air space and mission success for an F-22 will be greater than of F-15E or F-16C or F-18 E? These teen-series will be detected and shot down sooner than a the Raptor and the raptor just might make it.
> 
> Your point just strengthens the argument in favour of 5th gen; means that 4 and 4.5 gen hold no chance in this case, and a 5th gen is necessity for a possibility of success. Otherwise its just ground to ground strikes, don't send aircrafts, in-fact use ballistic missiles.
> 
> and this also brings a very important factor of an armed EW aircraft like EA-18G, and the use of such systems on a 5th gen aircraft making the 5th gen EW aircraft more lethal for the adversary with its stealthy profile.




One problem maybe that BVR AAM pk's may be considerably lower in India-Pak scenario. NATO against Iraq and Serbia had a pk of 0.46. This was before MAWS, advanced EW, and generally against outnumbered, outgunned and relatively outdated aircraft. 

What if in Pakistan vs India the pk goes down to 0.2? The massive barrages of IAF AAMs would put PAF at a disadvantage, as PAF has JF-17s that can only fire 2-4. 

Other than having a heavy fighter - a "quarterback" so to speak, the other option in leveling the field would be: 

1. LRSAMs. Doesn't need to be something expensive, could be something inhouse with a low pk. But a missile shot at an IAF fighter will force that fighter to take evasive action, considerably distracting it and reducing its kinetic and situational advantage. It may also have to drop certain stores in the process. 

2. For strike, simply use UCAVs. Basically a reusable cruise missile. This means you don't have to put your expensive gear in harms way, or lose pilots. 

Together, they can provide a meaningful capability substitute to F-16s or a future heavy fighter / stealth fighter.

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## CHI RULES

The Accountant said:


> Brother unfortunately you have no idea what you are talking about ...
> 
> @GriffinsRule has rightly said about the way these economic sanctions work ... For your ease of understanding US is world central bank and have control almost all international transactions including our most of the transactions with china and US can impose resteictions on banks that they cannot process any Pakistan based transations .. in such a scenario we will be economically isolated from the whole world ...
> 
> You can understand it like State bank of pakistan instruct all the banks to not to transfer any money pertaining to you then you cant do any transations other than cash ... You cant even get salary
> 
> Good thing with iran is that they sale oil which is global product and can be traded in barter but Pakistan cant do the same with textile ...
> 
> However on the other side US has its limitations too ... Too much restrictions and they will loose reliablity of dollar and countries will start looking for a second global currency for which China is also working...
> 
> Anyways this is all off topic so lets close it here ...



There are methods to cater the so called central bank of the world, barter is one and other one is to direct transactions between two countries with exchange rate set by the consent of both. In case of CPEC transactions rumors are there that transactions shall be done in Chinese currency instead of involving USD.

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## Armchair

Sometimes its good to see what the other side is thinking. here is a comment by Prasun Sengupta:

Prasun K. Sengupta said...



> To PJ: Again, it’s the undeniable laws of physics that provide all the answers in dissimilar air combat. No AAM flies straight either in azimuth or elevation & therefore max range is NEVER critical. All BVRAAMs use proportional navigation within a 3-dimensional spherical bowl that enables them to compute the most probable & optimum interception point. The dimensions of the 3-D bowl are entirely dependent on the mechanically scanning MMR antennae’s max gimbaled movements in azimuth & elevation & these in turn are the final determinants of an AAM’s performance parameters as far as effective range goes. Any aircraft cruising at higher altitudes will have a greater field-of-regard & expanded horizon & will consequently its on-board MMR’s antenna will require far less degree of movement in azimuth & elevation when compared the MMR performance of an aircraft cruising at a lower altitude. Thus, even if an adversary’s BVRAAM can fly a longer distance than an R-77, it will still require mid-course guidance cues from the MMR provided the MMR can keep a Su-30MKI within its field-of-view. Presently, the mechanically scanning MMRs of the F-16, JF-17, Mirage-3/5/F-7P/PG of the PAF can’t do this against a Su-30MKI cruising at a higher altitude & chances are that when guided by GCI, any IAF MiG-29UPG or Su-30MKI will be able to effortlessly detect, track & manoeuvre behind any PAF aircraft in 100% passive mode & fire R-73Es. Coming now to dogfights, NONE of the PAF’s combat aircraft have all-aspect WVRAAMs. Even the Block 52 F-16s that have HMDS cannot do all-aspect WVRAAM firing since the AIM-9S, PL-5E & PL-9C AAMs are not all-aspect. The R-73Es, MICA-IR & Python-5 on the other hand are all-aspect, meaning even if the launch aircraft turns 45 degrees to the left, the HMDS will ensure that during this turn the WVRAAM’s IIR seeker is already locked-on to the target aircraft located 45 degrees to the right in azimuth & elevation.
> 
> As for Rafale, it will contain all fitments, weapons & enhancements that are meant for the F-3R standard variant, including uprated powerplant, MBDA’s towed-decoys, etc etc. Astra BVRAAM is years away from entering service. Mica-IR/-RFs & Meteors will be used.
> 
> All RCS figures being touted about by fanboys concern only frontal RCS. RCS computation differs in different planes & angles & altitudes. Most importantly, the APG-66 MMR family are all non-monopulse & are highly unreliable in BVR air combat. That’s exactly why IAI/ELTA had to develop the monopulse EL/M-2032 MMR as an alternative.
> 
> Meanwhile, one PAF F-7 crashed yesterday at KPK near Jamrud, killing the pilot:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To AVI D: You can read all about it in the October 2016 issue of FORCE magazine.



September 25, 2016 at 1:17 AM


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## CriticalThought

Signalian said:


> The issue is not taking out an MKI, even an F-7PG can do that with the correct use of engagement tactics in air combat along-with other supporting factors. The issue is the role of MKI in IAF, which any aircraft in PAF cannot replicate or come close. When compared with MKI, F-16's payload and range is small, JF-17's payload and range is even smaller.
> 
> When talking about range, Pakistan has a small air space east-west, longitudinal. Still the F-16's belly pylon and JF-17's wet pylons are mostly seen with fuel tanks and the amount of fuel tanks define the combat radius for that particular sortie. PAF wouldnt even need a refueller tanker if PAF had heavy aircrafts like F-18's, F-15's, SU30's etc, or fighter aircrafts with buddy refuelling capability.F-16 Block 52+ have CFT's to enhance range, but these are only 18 in number and at any given time, its very hard that all 18 will be in air, probably 8 and out of necessity 12-14 at any given time. Its not easy to press hard one squadron and expect just this squadron to carry out missions 24/7.
> 
> Payload is another issue; volley of AAM's, a second strike capability after firing of 2-3-4 AAM's at 1 or 2 bogies is possible only if aircraft is already armed with 8 or more AAM's, but that's not the only issue. For strike role, ability to carry extra A2G missiles like ARM for SEAD, AShW for naval warfare, TV-guided like AGM-65 for supporting ground forces, PGM's, LGB's etc. Smaller formations, with decent payload for self defence and strike, 4-aircraft formations, using element of surprise, instead of bigger formations like 8 aircrafts or repeated strikes which loses element of surprise. If out of 7 pylons, 2-3 for fuel, 1 for Tgt/EW-pod...how many are left behind for ordnance and redundancy.
> 
> One more thing, a lot of factors practically matter, an aircraft (lets say JF-17) can stay in air for 45 minutes and experiences combat after 35 minutes, it will be low on ordnance (after firing off AAM's) and low on fuel too. Other aircraft in the FOB zone are maybe F-7's as alert fighters and take off for combat. The JF-17's need to get back in air again after re-fuelling and re-arming. Due to high enemy activity in the air, its risky to fly a refueller tanker in this air space. If there was an aircraft with more fuel capacity, and could stay in air for 20-25 minutes more, it will only be needed to re-armed, and infact if it could carry more ordnance, it wouldn't even need to land for refuelling or re-arming and only get complimented by F-7 or Mirages for air defence of the air space.



You are majorly confused about aerial warfare. You are basically repeating verbatim every single illogical argument that is oft repeated on this forum.

You see PAF aircraft loaded with fuel tanks because they are doing standard CAP duty, and want to maximize their flight time. This is not the configuration for flying a combat sortie. Neither the Thunder, nor the Viper need an 'air to air refuelling' in order to accomplish their interception missions. So much so, that the PAF does not even have a refuelling aircraft for the Vipers - to my knowledge, at least, but please correct me if I am wrong.

Next, increased internal fuel comes with an increased weight which lowers the T/W ratio. The T/W of SU-30 MK with a standard loadout is 1.004 IF USING ITS MAX THRUST. Any load above that will reduce the T/W further. The beauty of fuel tanks is that they can be ejected before entering combat. Any fighter pilot would prefer to dump any unneeded fuel and maximize performance rather than carry the burden in internal tanks, especially when intercepting over friendly airspace.

Now, the large weapons load out is a complete waste if the aircraft is taken out before using them. Let us assume a 1:1 kill ratio between Thunders and MKI, each having used 50% of its weapons load. Assuming a 2+2 configuration for Thunder and a 2+8 for MKI, with each loss of Thunder, we lose 2 perfectly good missiles, whereas the MKI loses 5 perfectly good missiles which could otherwise be used in combat.

The larger loadout also means a larger radar signature. The MKIs provide a nice big target for PAF BVRs. And if you read @Windjammer you will realize that already there has been a situation where the larger MKI was locked by the smaller Thunder. And if you read @Oscar you will know that even the Block-52 has trouble locating the Thunder.

Yes, the larger aircraft has advantage in a strike role, IF it has air superiority. In the face of dense air defence coverage, the bigger aircraft will be simply an easier kill. Forget about repeating a 65 or 71 scenario of deep penetrative strikes. With modern Indian air defence measures, it would be a months long campaign to systematically clear out the defences and pave way for deep missions. In the next war, deep penetration will be carried out by ballistic and cruise missiles. Such is the nature of war now. Accept this, and move on.

Finally, if India commits the mistake of sending over a horde of aircraft to overwhelm the PAF, the consequences will be unthinkable. It is not going to commit that folly.



Signalian said:


> Using different types of aircrafts against IAF is one of the tactics PAF will use, because MKI fighter may need to revise tactics in mind again and again when countering F-16, JF-17, F-7 and Mirage, all 4 aircrafts with different strong and weak points in air combat. This confuses the enemy pilot more when thoughts hopping in his head how to defend himself and then attack different types of aircrafts using separate tactics for every type, making decisions in milli-seconds time frame.
> 
> IAF will do the same with MKI and Rafale entering Pakistan airspace repeatedly, complimented with Mirage-2000 sometimes and other times with Mig-27 or Jaguar, if its assumed that Mig-29 will carry out air defence duty along with Mig-21.



I don't know where to start in criticizing this. I'll keep my language clean and just tell you to concentrate on tanks battalions. You clearly have a lot of potential in that area.



Signalian said:


> Coming to stealth factor; I wont go in much detail now,
> 
> Since you said that F-22 will have a hard time against a strong AD network (ground and air), then wouldnt the possibility of penetrating this air space and mission success for an F-22 will be greater than of F-15E or F-16C or F-18 E? These teen-series will be detected and shot down sooner than a the Raptor and the raptor just might make it.
> 
> Your point just strengthens the argument in favour of 5th gen; means that 4 and 4.5 gen hold no chance in this case, and a 5th gen is necessity for a possibility of success. Otherwise its just ground to ground strikes, don't send aircrafts, in-fact use ballistic missiles.
> 
> and this also brings a very important factor of an armed EW aircraft like EA-18G, and the use of such systems on a 5th gen aircraft making the 5th gen EW aircraft more lethal for the adversary with its stealthy profile.


[/QUOTE]

My point was neither to favour, nor criticize 5th gen. But here is simple common sense: when you spend upwards of 100 million dollar on an aircraft, it better give you a lot in return. And I think you failed to understand what I said earlier: against modern air defences, even the F-22 by itself will fail to achieve anything. Read that again: you won't get any benefit out of it. You need a support infrastructure to analyse the threats present, probe it for weaknesses, then devise a strategy that will utilize your strengths while leveraging the enemy's weaknesses. In some cases, this may even require utilizing special forces behind enemy lines. In other cases, it may utilize a saturation attack using cruise missiles. As a matter of fact, saturation attacks using cruise missiles are the best method for clearing a path for our fighters.

So please stop with this fanboyism, and don't misinterpret what I said. It is completely incorrect to say that 4 and 4.5 gen hold no chance. The reality of the situation is that the correct solution is completely different from sending in fighter jets. War planers are not the one solution to all problems you face on the battlefield. Again, your forte is armored battalions. Stick to them.

The utility and requirements of a 5th gen fighter are unclear as yet. We do not have knowledge of PAF's threat assessment, and what threats it is planning to counter with a 5th gen aircraft. As such, silence is the most prudent expression at this point. I wouldn't go out of my way to write such a lengthy response, but unfortunately you have some respect on the forum and newbies will be treating your thoughts with respect. Don't mislead people on topics you don't understand.



Armchair said:


> Interesting but remember the scenario - attacking Mumbai. If the 5th gen is say, the Azm or the J-31, what aircraft would be the 4th gen that does what you say it will do?
> 
> Or perhaps the 5th gen could fly high, alone and launch the attack themselves and return back to base... but this will depend on what munitions are used and whether the weapons bay fits.
> 
> Additionally, Chinese 5th gen are not likely to be as stealthy as American 5th gen. Which means they would be easier to detect, and the powerful radars on Indian warships may just be able to see the 5th gen flying high.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One problem maybe that BVR AAM pk's may be considerably lower in India-Pak scenario. NATO against Iraq and Serbia had a pk of 0.46. This was before MAWS, advanced EW, and generally against outnumbered, outgunned and relatively outdated aircraft.
> 
> What if in Pakistan vs India the pk goes down to 0.2? The massive barrages of IAF AAMs would put PAF at a disadvantage, as PAF has JF-17s that can only fire 2-4.
> 
> Other than having a heavy fighter - a "quarterback" so to speak, the other option in leveling the field would be:
> 
> 1. LRSAMs. Doesn't need to be something expensive, could be something inhouse with a low pk. But a missile shot at an IAF fighter will force that fighter to take evasive action, considerably distracting it and reducing its kinetic and situational advantage. It may also have to drop certain stores in the process.
> 
> 2. For strike, simply use UCAVs. Basically a reusable cruise missile. This means you don't have to put your expensive gear in harms way, or lose pilots.
> 
> Together, they can provide a meaningful capability substitute to F-16s or a future heavy fighter / stealth fighter.



Very good thoughts. The PAF's plan to overcome the PK is network centric warfare utilizing a swarm of Thunders. And if India commits the mistake of sending its own hoard to our borders... well, the unimaginable will happen.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

@CriticalThought 
Re: PAF F-16s IFR/AAR ... the PAF did seek KC-135s and other boom-capable options in the mid-2000s, but there were no willing suppliers. However, if it could, the PAF would pursue AAR/IFR for the F-16s. @Bilal Khan 777

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## CriticalThought

Armchair said:


> Sometimes its good to see what the other side is thinking. here is a comment by Prasun Sengupta:
> 
> Prasun K. Sengupta said...
> 
> 
> 
> September 25, 2016 at 1:17 AM



The analysis fails to take into account AEWACS and network-centric capabilities.

Although HOBS missiles are a material threat, but at the same time, any high-G turn will also reduce the missile's energy. The Indians can rest assured that PAF understands the idiosyncrasies off WVR engagement very well.


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## The Accountant

CHI RULES said:


> There are methods to cater the so called central bank of the world, barter is one and other one is to direct transactions between two countries with exchange rate set by the consent of both. In case of CPEC transactions rumors are there that transactions shall be done in Chinese currency instead of involving USD.


Yes but this will restrict your international transactions ... China is just one country but we have to trade with all countries of the world ... Most importantly if we are unable to buy oil which is only tradeable in dollars ...


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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @CriticalThought
> Re: PAF F-16s IFR/AAR ... the PAF did seek KC-135s and other boom-capable options in the mid-2000s, but there were no willing suppliers. However, if it could, the PAF would pursue AAR/IFR for the F-16s. @Bilal Khan 777



The fact remains that today it is managing very well without any refueller for the Viper. And there are no publicly stated requirements for acquiring one either.


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## The Accountant

CriticalThought said:


> The fact remains that today it is managing very well without any refueller for the Viper. And there are no publicly stated requirements for acquiring one either.


Yes because strike role is of mirrages and f16 are for air superiority or air cover ... So f16s can fly with fuel tanks and full fuel as anti air missiles are comparatively less heavy


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## CriticalThought

The Accountant said:


> Yes because strike role is of mirrages and f16 are for air superiority or air cover ... So f16s can fly with fuel tanks and full fuel as anti air missiles are comparatively less heavy



Which was my original point. No need for refuellers for defence of the homeland.

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## CHI RULES

The Accountant said:


> Yes but this will restrict your international transactions ... China is just one country but we have to trade with all countries of the world ... Most importantly if we are unable to buy oil which is only tradeable in dollars ...


This option is given only as an example moreover due to Chinese/Russian influence/cooperation USA will/shall never go for full restrictions on Pakistan. The defense related restrictions are already in process, but USA also has interests in Pakistan. The threat is only from moles within our key positions.

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## Bilal Khan 777

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @CriticalThought
> Re: PAF F-16s IFR/AAR ... the PAF did seek KC-135s and other boom-capable options in the mid-2000s, but there were no willing suppliers. However, if it could, the PAF would pursue AAR/IFR for the F-16s. @Bilal Khan 777



This has been discussed and evaluated many times. There is no willing supplier, and now with probe drogue system, its out of the question, equation, and matrix. However, the PAF Falcons have been deployed to not require IFR.

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan 777 said:


> This has been discussed and evaluated many times. There is no willing supplier, and now with probe drogue system, its out of the question, equation, and matrix. However, the PAF Falcons have been deployed to not require IFR.



Very nice seeing you after a long time Sir!

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## The Accountant

CHI RULES said:


> This option is given only as an example moreover due to Chinese/Russian influence/cooperation USA will/shall never go for full restrictions on Pakistan. The defense related restrictions are already in process, but USA also has interests in Pakistan. The threat is only from moles within our key positions.


Agreed but we should consider all sorts of potential threats ... Plus trump is unpredictble and has no long term vision ... The best bet against such sanctions is to promote poitive image of Pakistan specially to europe so that diplomatically we can reduce the possiblity of such threat to negligible ...


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## Signalian

CriticalThought said:


> You are majorly confused about aerial warfare. You are basically repeating verbatim every single illogical argument that is oft repeated on this forum.


Thank you for your significant input and time, but i am very sure that i'm not confused. If anything opposes your ideas and grasp, doesn't mean its illogical. 



> You see PAF aircraft loaded with fuel tanks because they are doing standard CAP duty, and want to maximize their flight time. This is not the configuration for flying a combat sortie. Neither the Thunder, nor the Viper need an 'air to air refuelling' in order to accomplish their interception missions. So much so, that the PAF does not even have a refuelling aircraft for the Vipers - to my knowledge, at least, but please correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> Next, increased internal fuel comes with an increased weight which lowers the T/W ratio. The T/W of SU-30 MK with a standard loadout is 1.004 IF USING ITS MAX THRUST. Any load above that will reduce the T/W further. The beauty of fuel tanks is that they can be ejected before entering combat. Any fighter pilot would prefer to dump any unneeded fuel and maximize performance rather than carry the burden in internal tanks, especially when intercepting over friendly airspace.


Going round in circles wont help, lets come to the point and keep it simple, JF-17 and F-16 do-not posses the range needed for long range missions.



> Now, the large weapons load out is a complete waste if the aircraft is taken out before using them. Let us assume a 1:1 kill ratio between Thunders and MKI, each having used 50% of its weapons load. Assuming a 2+2 configuration for Thunder and a 2+8 for MKI, with each loss of Thunder, we lose 2 perfectly good missiles, whereas the MKI loses 5 perfectly good missiles which could otherwise be used in combat.


Taking risk is part of war, compromising should be an option, not necessity. I will not judge you here, but going by your logic, no aircraft should be fully loaded for combat, lest it gets show down and "expensive unfired missiles" are lost. and i will rest my case here as i see you now comparing loss of aircraft to loss of missiles. Good God.



> The larger loadout also means a larger radar signature. The MKIs provide a nice big target for PAF BVRs. And if you read @Windjammer you will realize that already there has been a situation where the larger MKI was locked by the smaller Thunder. And if you read @Oscar you will know that even the Block-52 has trouble locating the Thunder.


I have read posts of above stated gentlemen, very informative but could be more innovative. The trade off of larger RCS to what actually MKI can offer (not that im advocating MKI like an indian member), actually pretty much over shadows the RCS factor.



> Yes, the larger aircraft has advantage in a strike role, IF it has air superiority. In the face of dense air defence coverage, the bigger aircraft will be simply an easier kill. Forget about repeating a 65 or 71 scenario of deep penetrative strikes. With modern Indian air defence measures, it would be a months long campaign to systematically clear out the defences and pave way for deep missions. In the next war, deep penetration will be carried out by ballistic and cruise missiles. Such is the nature of war now. Accept this, and move on.



You do know that most Indian SAM systems are mobile, can be used near FOB's apart from deep inside India. so going deep is not the only path in which SAMs will be encountered, and the addition of MAR-1 is there for a purpose. SAMs need to be destroyed or by-passed through safe way-points. 

Secondly, the use of BM's and CM's will depend upon nature of war and these BM's CM's can take out SAM systems to pave way for PAF aircraft to operate in Indian air space, and at some point in war, that could be necessary, why? keep reading. 



> Finally, if India commits the mistake of sending over a horde of aircraft to overwhelm the PAF, the consequences will be unthinkable. It is not going to commit that folly.
> 
> I don't know where to start in criticizing this. I'll keep my language clean and just tell you to concentrate on tanks battalions. You clearly have a lot of potential in that area.


Dear Sir, thank you for your kind offer, but i shall pass.

Further on to tank battalions, now i will reply you why PAF may need to operate in Indian skies, Pakistan Army at any point in war could be operating in Indian territory and may need PAF cover in that region. This is the doctrine of Pakistan Army to take the war on the Indian side.

*PS: please use whichever language you want with me, i will keep it civil, this i promise you.*



> My point was neither to favour, nor criticize 5th gen. But here is simple common sense: when you spend upwards of 100 million dollar on an aircraft, it better give you a lot in return. And I think you failed to understand what I said earlier: against modern air defences, even the F-22 by itself will fail to achieve anything. Read that again: you won't get any benefit out of it. You need a support infrastructure to analyse the threats present, probe it for weaknesses, then devise a strategy that will utilize your strengths while leveraging the enemy's weaknesses. In some cases, this may even require utilizing special forces behind enemy lines. In other cases, it may utilize a saturation attack using cruise missiles. As a matter of fact, saturation attacks using cruise missiles are the best method for clearing a path for our fighters.
> 
> So please stop with this fanboyism, and don't misinterpret what I said. It is completely incorrect to say that 4 and 4.5 gen hold no chance. The reality of the situation is that the correct solution is completely different from sending in fighter jets. War planers are not the one solution to all problems you face on the battlefield. Again, your forte is armored battalions. Stick to them.
> 
> The utility and requirements of a 5th gen fighter are unclear as yet. We do not have knowledge of PAF's threat assessment, and what threats it is planning to counter with a 5th gen aircraft. As such, silence is the most prudent expression at this point. I wouldn't go out of my way to write such a lengthy response, but unfortunately you have some respect on the forum and newbies will be treating your thoughts with respect. Don't mislead people on topics you don't understand.


My friend, you are hopping left and right for your argument on 5th gen, you yourself proved through your post why 5th gen is necessary and when i re-iterated on your point, you now want to play with words. 

Dear sir, please grow up. 5th Gen is the future and most countries are designing their own 5th Gen aircrafts, France is going one step ahead and concentrating on 6th Gen. 
Secondly, in strategic warfare planning, options are opened up, not closed. 
Thirdly, newer technology and weapon systems gives flexibility in planning and implementing new doctrines, tactics and strategies, as it can give an edge over the enemy.

Lastly my friend, i like discussing topics with members who bring ideas on the table like @Armchair and @Ulla , not confining themselves and their ideas, like yourself, so I may not be able to continue this discussion with you any longer as I can't learn anything from you and going in circles isnt helping. 

Ciao.

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## Armchair

I take credit for bringing him back!

Reading between the lines, what he is possibly implying is that the F-16s have those extra large fuel tanks and the new ones have conformal tanks meaning refueling is to some extent redundant.

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## fatman17

F16 Fighting Falcons in Pakistan Air Force have completed the land mark of 100,000 successful Flight hours!
F16s in Pakistan are operational from 3.5 decade and so far only 9 crashes have occurred making one of successful safety record in Aviation History. https://t.co/ac0m3xha3I

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## Signalian

Armchair said:


> Maybe Pak can offer Venezuela some JF-17s as barter for their F-16s.


have u checked the conditions which could be enforced, starting from sale, delivery and then support, will USA allow?

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## Armchair

Signalian said:


> have u checked the conditions which could be enforced, starting from sale, delivery and then support, will USA allow?


US just might, its in their interest to ensure those F-16s don't get handed to the Russians or the Chinese.

The aircraft must be in reasonable condition as the Venezuela air force is not known to train hard, and these have largely been like hangar queens since the parts supply stopped. The climate is a bit humid and there is ocean flying so condition is probably not like what you would get from countries like Jordan.

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> Interesting but remember the scenario - attacking Mumbai. If the 5th gen is say, the Azm or the J-31, what aircraft would be the 4th gen that does what you say it will do?
> 
> Or perhaps the 5th gen could fly high, alone and launch the attack themselves and return back to base... but this will depend on what munitions are used and whether the weapons bay fits.
> 
> Additionally, Chinese 5th gen are not likely to be as stealthy as American 5th gen. Which means they would be easier to detect, and the powerful radars on Indian warships may just be able to see the 5th gen flying high.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One problem maybe that BVR AAM pk's may be considerably lower in India-Pak scenario. NATO against Iraq and Serbia had a pk of 0.46. This was before MAWS, advanced EW, and generally against outnumbered, outgunned and relatively outdated aircraft.
> 
> What if in Pakistan vs India the pk goes down to 0.2? The massive barrages of IAF AAMs would put PAF at a disadvantage, as PAF has JF-17s that can only fire 2-4.
> 
> Other than having a heavy fighter - a "quarterback" so to speak, the other option in leveling the field would be:
> 
> 1. LRSAMs. Doesn't need to be something expensive, could be something inhouse with a low pk. But a missile shot at an IAF fighter will force that fighter to take evasive action, considerably distracting it and reducing its kinetic and situational advantage. It may also have to drop certain stores in the process.
> 
> 2. For strike, simply use UCAVs. Basically a reusable cruise missile. This means you don't have to put your expensive gear in harms way, or lose pilots.
> 
> Together, they can provide a meaningful capability substitute to F-16s or a future heavy fighter / stealth fighter.



Hi,

Buddy refuelling would be more appropriate in a strike on mumbai---.

By the time the opponents ships locate the 5th gen aircraft---they will be deep in range of heavy AShM's like the CM400 AKG---the cm400 would already be launched from the 4th gen aircraft---if such capability was available.

Naval vessels do not have long range missiles to challenge aircraft launching from a 100 + miles away---.

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Buddy refuelling would be more appropriate in a strike on mumbai---.
> 
> By the time the opponents ships locate the 5th gen aircraft---they will be deep in range of heavy AShM's like the CM400 AKG---the cm400 would already be launched from the 4th gen aircraft---if such capability was available.
> 
> Naval vessels do not have long range missiles to challenge aircraft launching from a 100 + miles away---.




Problem is:

1. If you buy the, say FC-31, you won't have the money to by a 4th gen to accompany it for a strike to Mumbai.
2. The weapons bay of the FC-31 is shallow, it cannot carry a meaningful AShM or ALCM loadout. 

So does this mean the purpose is defeated?


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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> Problem is:
> 
> 1. If you buy the, say FC-31, you won't have the money to by a 4th gen to accompany it for a strike to Mumbai.
> 2. The weapons bay of the FC-31 is shallow, it cannot carry a meaningful AShM or ALCM loadout.
> 
> So does this mean the purpose is defeated?



Hi,

You don't need a 5th gen for that strike---. The JH7 is sufficient in itself---. We have to fight within our means---.

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You don't need a 5th gen for that strike---. The JH7 is sufficient in itself---. We have to fight within our means---.



But -

1. It is very likely that if you afford a 5th gen, you won't have money left for yet another type - JH-7s
2. The point of using the 5th gen becomes moot if the JH-7 can get the job done... 

Logically bringing us back to square 1...


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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> But -
> 
> 1. It is very likely that if you afford a 5th gen, you won't have money left for yet another type - JH-7s
> 2. The point of using the 5th gen becomes moot if the JH-7 can get the job done...
> 
> Logically bringing us back to square 1...



Hi,

Technology is a stair step progression---. 

You want a military---you have to by default move onto the next level up---.

But that does not mean that your lower tiered weapons have lost value---.

In the mumbai strike scenario---you are farther away from being detected all thru the flight---you turn and dash in---release your cargo and dash out---. You can manage without a 5th gen type aircraft---.

But then there would be other sites that you need to target---you may have a chance of being detected earlier on a conventional aircraft---. Here you can use the 5th gen to spearhead---lock onto the target and launch the munitions thru data link from aircraft flying far out---.

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## air marshal

F-16BM

http://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16BM-Fighting-Falcon/1086


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## syed_yusuf

air marshal said:


> F-16BM
> 
> http://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16BM-Fighting-Falcon/1086


Is it carrying 600 gallon tanks


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## MastanKhan



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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> View attachment 486998


Here is a video describing the events of that day





And here is the link to the pilot's bio. He has had an incredible career.
http://www.beale.af.mil/Library/Biographies/Display/Article/671695/colonel-christopher-r-stricklin/

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## Windjammer



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## Shabi1

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 487056


which pod is that?

Doesn't look like sniper. ALQ???


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## Windjammer

Shabi1 said:


> which pod is that?
> 
> Doesn't look like sniper. ALQ???


The Goodrich DB-110 recce pod.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 487056


Is this during flight testing in the USA ??


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## Windjammer

Knuckles said:


> Is this during flight testing in the USA ??


Yes it seems so as the Flag is visible in full colours rather than the adopted low viz.


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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> Yes it seems so as the Flag is visible in full colours rather than the adopted low viz.



There is no Chinese equivalent ?? On jf- 17 sniper equivalent aselpod will provide jf Isr capability but still not a dedicated pod like db-110 I think paf bought 3-4 dB-110 systems meaning x number of pods and ground station per system

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## Super Falcon

Windjammer said:


> The Goodrich DB-110 recce pod.
> 
> View attachment 487057


Isnt goodrich indian brand sir


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## Windjammer

Super Falcon said:


> Isnt goodrich indian brand sir


The Goodrich’s DB-110 reconnaissance pod is a digital, real-time, tactical reconnaissance system designed to capture images in day or night, using electro-optical sensor technology. The pod can transmit Images via datalink to the ground in real time. The system is produced Goodrich’s Surveillance and Reconnaissance Systems (SRS) team based in Chelmsford, Mass. The data link ground stations are designed and built by a Goodrich facility in Malvern, U.K. for the Poland Peace Sky Program.


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## Incog_nito

Windjammer said:


> The Goodrich DB-110 recce pod.
> 
> View attachment 487057


Recon Mission WOW!


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## Trailer23

The Saab Gripen E. Not a bad a/c to have in ones fleet. Too bad we can't get our hands on it. Saab can sell us Eyrie, but not the Gripens'. What bull...

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## denel

Trailer23 said:


> The Saab Gripen E. Not a bad a/c to have in ones fleet. Too bad we can't get our hands on it. Saab can sell us Eyrie, but not the Gripens'. What bull...


Is it due to the engine and other signoff from US?
It is ok, jf-17 was designed with Gripen in mind in terms of egronomics and capabilities. Lets see if winds of change continue to hold to get any second hand units of f-16s. sooner or later they will come


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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> Is it due to the engine and other signoff from US?
> It is ok, jf-17 was designed with Gripen in mind in terms of egronomics and capabilities. Lets see if winds of change continue to hold to get any second hand units of f-16s. sooner or later they will come



Hi,

JF17 BLK2 is right behind the Gippen E---when the BLK3 pops up---that would be a totally different story---.

If tier 1 western EW package was available for the JF17---it would have served Grippen's roasted behind on a platter---.

Oh---by the way---what does the south african air force have to say about Grippen---?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> Is it due to the engine and other signoff from US?
> It is ok, jf-17 was designed with Gripen in mind in terms of egronomics and capabilities. Lets see if winds of change continue to hold to get any second hand units of f-16s. sooner or later they will come


The JF-17 and Gripen are basically in the same category of lightweight, multi-role fighters. Yes, the Gripen has advantages in some areas, but these aren't decisive enough to warrant a need for the Gripen in the PAF. The JF-17 will get 90% of the same work done at 40% of the price, tops.

That said, I would see if it's possible to get Saab's design and technology input in Project Azm, i.e. the next-gen fighter. @messiach had hinted that Project Azm will conceptually follow the JF-17 as a lightweight, workhorse fighter. Surely, Saab will know a few things about optimizing the maximum out of an inherently small design.

Imagine the thought of a highly agile fighter with low RCS airframe, sensor fusion and network enabled warfare capabilities. Below is one of the old concepts pitched for Turkey's TFX. Man, I would love it if Project Azm reflects this ... 150-200 of them ...

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The JF-17 and Gripen are basically in the same category of lightweight, multi-role fighters. Yes, the Gripen has advantages in some areas, but these aren't decisive enough to warrant a need for the Gripen in the PAF. The JF-17 will get 90% of the same work done at 40% of the price, tops.
> 
> That said, I would see if it's possible to get Saab's design and technology input in Project Azm, i.e. the next-gen fighter. @messiach had hinted that Project Azm will conceptually follow the JF-17 as a lightweight, workhorse fighter. Surely, Saab will know a few things about optimizing the maximum out of an inherently small design.
> 
> Imagine the thought of a highly agile fighter with low RCS airframe, sensor fusion and network enabled warfare capabilities. Below is one of the old concepts pitched for Turkey's TFX. Man, I would love it if Project Azm reflects this ... 150-200 of them ...
> 
> View attachment 487621



Project Azm should be a moment if reflection on Pakistan's role in the world at large, and the types of threats we face other than the Indian threat. As time goes on, it is certain that Afghanistan will get an airforce at some point (except if some other things happen to dissuade them from the idea). If USA-China relations sour, Gawadar would be under threat by Uncle Sam. We need to think globally when defining the requirements for Azm.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> Project Azm should be a moment if reflection on Pakistan's role in the world at large, and the types of threats we face other than the Indian threat. As time goes on, it is certain that Afghanistan will get an airforce at some point (except if some other things happen to dissuade them from the idea). If USA-China relations sour, Gawadar would be under threat by Uncle Sam. We need to think globally when defining the requirements for Azm.


Yep ... low-cost, optimized for maximum possible performance and widely deployed (esp. in sizable numbers).

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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep ... low-cost, optimized for maximum possible performance and widely deployed (esp. in sizable numbers).



Longer range as well...


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## randomradio

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The JF-17 and Gripen are basically in the same category of lightweight, multi-role fighters. Yes, the Gripen has advantages in some areas, but these aren't decisive enough to warrant a need for the Gripen in the PAF. The JF-17 will get 90% of the same work done at 40% of the price, tops.



You seem to be comparing the Gripen C with the JF-17.

The Gripen E is a medium weight aircraft. It has 3.4T of fuel versus 2.3T that the JF-17 carries, which gives it a basic range of 2500Km versus 1800Km on JF-17. And the Gripen E's payload is almost twice that of the JF-17's. Its MTOW is nearly 17T versus 12.5T on the JF-17.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

randomradio said:


> You seem to be comparing the Gripen C with the JF-17.
> 
> The Gripen E is a medium weight aircraft. It has 3.4T of fuel versus 2.3T that the JF-17 carries, which gives it a basic range of 2500Km versus 1800Km on JF-17. And the Gripen E's payload is almost twice that of the JF-17's. Its MTOW is nearly 17T versus 12.5T on the JF-17.


Yep I was comparing the C/D to the JF-17. 

That said, the Gripen E/F might actually be the most accessible Western fighter as far as the PAF is concerned. Granted, there's Sweden being reluctant to sell arms to shaky states, but it doesn't seem to emphasize that as much these days. There's the issue of third-party IP (from US and UK), but not insurmountable (e.g. T129). 

Still, an import of that scope when the emphasis is apparently on sourcing marquee solutions from home or at least fully willing suppliers (e.g. China) is tough to swallow.


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## randomradio

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep I was comparing the C/D to the JF-17.
> 
> That said, the Gripen E/F might actually be the most accessible Western fighter as far as the PAF is concerned. Granted, there's Sweden being reluctant to sell arms to shaky states, but it doesn't seem to emphasize that as much these days. There's the issue of third-party IP (from US and UK), but not insurmountable (e.g. T129).
> 
> Still, an import of that scope when the emphasis is apparently on sourcing marquee solutions from home or at least fully willing suppliers (e.g. China) is tough to swallow.



If the PAF manages to get their hands on the Gripen E/F in sizeable numbers, it's going to create a lot of headache for the IAF. The Gripen E configuration with a GaN radar that was offered to India was superior to the Rafale F3R's air to air configuration. The same radar and EW suite can also potentially be used on the JF-17.

But getting Sweden and the US to sell their stuff to Pakistan in the current atmosphere is quite an uphill task.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

randomradio said:


> If the PAF manages to get their hands on the Gripen E/F in sizeable numbers, it's going to create a lot of headache for the IAF. The Gripen E configuration with a GaN radar that was offered to India was superior to the Rafale F3R's air to air configuration. The same radar and EW suite can also potentially be used on the JF-17.
> 
> But getting Sweden and the US to sell their stuff to Pakistan in the current atmosphere is quite an uphill task.


IMO Saab would likely take the safer route of using Leonardo's Vixen 1000E or Raven ES in any Pakistani offer, much simpler (as Leonardo is already involved with Pakistan). Be it India or Pakistan, I'd say any race for Saab might be in the context of their respective next-gen efforts too.


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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep I was comparing the C/D to the JF-17.
> 
> That said, the Gripen E/F might actually be the most accessible Western fighter as far as the PAF is concerned. Granted, there's Sweden being reluctant to sell arms to shaky states, but it doesn't seem to emphasize that as much these days. There's the issue of third-party IP (from US and UK), but not insurmountable (e.g. T129).
> 
> Still, an import of that scope when the emphasis is apparently on sourcing marquee solutions from home or at least fully willing suppliers (e.g. China) is tough to swallow.



With respect, the US didnt allow Jordan to sell used F-16s to PAF. There is no way the gov of US will allow sales of new 4.5gen Gripen. Any potential sale would jeed removal of US IP. UK might still be doable, but being that Pakistan is close to China and getting cozier with Russia on a daily basis, i dont see that happening. Plus, there is literally no reason that the same or similar electronics couldnt find their way into JF-17. If PAF wants something from SAAB in the vein of Gripen, then deal with Leonardo and SAAB for electronics and maybe UK for EJ200, but for your JF-17..

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> With respect, the US didnt allow Jordan to sell used F-16s to PAF. There is no way the gov of US will allow sales of new 4.5gen Gripen. Any potential sale would jeed removal of US IP. UK might still be doable, but being that Pakistan is close to China and getting cozier with Russia on a daily basis, i dont see that happening. Plus, there is literally no reason that the same or similar electronics couldnt find their way into JF-17. If PAF wants something from SAAB in the vein of Gripen, then deal with Leonardo and SAAB for electronics and maybe UK for EJ200, but for your JF-17..


But the US apparently allowed the LHTEC turboshaft to slide through with the T129, and hasn't done anything to stop the GE gas turbines for the MILGEM. 

To be honest, we don't know if Khawaja Asif's statements re: Jordan are correct, especially as the PAF hasn't commented to that effect, not even when the CAS explicitly called the US out for bailing on the CSF/FMF (you'd think he would say something of Jordan?) 

The point re: the Gripen E/F wasn't the electronics, but the range and payload capabilities, which can benefit the PAF in some fronts (i.e. maritime ops) sooner.


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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The JF-17 and Gripen are basically in the same category of lightweight, multi-role fighters. Yes, the Gripen has advantages in some areas, but these aren't decisive enough to warrant a need for the Gripen in the PAF. The JF-17 will get 90% of the same work done at 40% of the price, tops.
> 
> That said, I would see if it's possible to get Saab's design and technology input in Project Azm, i.e. the next-gen fighter. @messiach had hinted that Project Azm will conceptually follow the JF-17 as a lightweight, workhorse fighter. Surely, Saab will know a few things about optimizing the maximum out of an inherently small design.
> 
> Imagine the thought of a highly agile fighter with low RCS airframe, sensor fusion and network enabled warfare capabilities. Below is one of the old concepts pitched for Turkey's TFX. Man, I would love it if Project Azm reflects this ... 150-200 of them ...
> 
> View attachment 487621




Hi,

The flexibility of a multitude of offensive weapons that come available with the JF17 negates any advantage that the Grippen would have over the JF17 in our arena---.

What is 80 to 85% in difference in capability favoring the grippen today in some fields today and one on one in the others---will narrow down to about 95% over all in some fields and at par with many others in the BLK3.

Local un-restricted supply chain of weapons and low cost of maintenance and quick ready availability of all weapons will give advantage JF17 when considered as a total weapons system---.

As great as Saab product is---its maintenance is exponentially expensive as well---as the south african air force found out---@denel can better answer that comment of mine---please correct me---.

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## ziaulislam

randomradio said:


> You seem to be comparing the Gripen C with the JF-17.
> 
> The Gripen E is a medium weight aircraft. It has 3.4T of fuel versus 2.3T that the JF-17 carries, which gives it a basic range of 2500Km versus 1800Km on JF-17. And the Gripen E's payload is almost twice that of the JF-17's. Its MTOW is nearly 17T versus 12.5T on the JF-17.


Gripen ng has everything 33% more than jf17 while gripen c is similar to jf17
The reason is better engine..its not twice or 50%
If block 3 does get engine upgrade it will be similar to gripen



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> But the US apparently allowed the LHTEC turboshaft to slide through with the T129, and hasn't done anything to stop the GE gas turbines for the MILGEM.
> 
> To be honest, we don't know if Khawaja Asif's statements re: Jordan are correct, especially as the PAF hasn't commented to that effect, not even when the CAS explicitly called the US out for bailing on the CSF/FMF (you'd think he would say something of Jordan?)
> 
> The point re: the Gripen E/F wasn't the electronics, but the range and payload capabilities, which can benefit the PAF in some fronts (i.e. maritime ops) sooner.


I think its correct ...USA simply wanted Pakistan to buy their stuff i.e new f16s and was blocking used f16 for that reason only

This doesnt applu for t129 or milgem

Secondly used f16 will be looked upon very negatively fron india perspective ..india knows that air power is very important 

I doubt the milgem or t129 bothers india..as long as IAF has decisive advantage against PAF everything else is irrelevant in conventional warfare

Imagine USA allowing 40-60 used f16 that would have put IAF on the backfoot...india opposition to even 8f16 is well known and did all it can to block it ..used f16 is not going to bring jobs to usa 

Indian usa citizens are way more influential educated and way more united than Pakistani ..


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> Gripen ng has everything 33% more than jf17 while gripen c is similar to jf17
> The reason is better engine..its not twice or 50%
> If block 3 does get engine upgrade it will be similar to gripen
> 
> 
> I think its correct ...USA simply wanted Pakistan to buy their stuff i.e new f16s and was blocking used f16 for that reason only
> 
> This doesnt applu for t129 or milgem
> 
> Secondly used f16 will be looked upon very negatively fron india perspective ..india knows that air power is very important
> 
> I doubt the milgem or t129 bothers india..as long as IAF has decisive advantage against PAF everything else is irrelevant in conventional warfare
> 
> Imagine USA allowing 40-60 used f16 that would have put IAF on the backfoot...india opposition to even 8f16 is well known and did all it can to block it ..used f16 is not going to bring jobs to usa
> 
> Indian usa citizens are way more influential educated and way more united than Pakistani ..


The Block-III will not have the same physical/airframe improvements as the Gripen E/F, i.e. no new engine, not many range/payload improvements (maybe 9 hardpoints, but the 2 new ones may be for special mission pods, not weapons), no major airframe changes.

Basically, the point of Block-III is to bring AESA and other new tech to the mainstay PAF fleet, but it's not there to drastically alter range coverage or weapon carrying capability. Maybe a JF-17 Block-IV or even Project Azm, but I wouldn't count on the Block-III to provide those changes.

Anyways, the PAF has been looking for another fighter platform to provide that range and payload capability.

It originally sought the FC-20/J-10A (see the 2009 PAF book by Alan Warnes), but that fell through due to the PPP's governing. In 2016, IHS Jane's said 30-40 new fighters were being sought to be an interim for the 2020s until the next-gen fighter comes alive.

My main point is that the Gripen E/F is probably the most accessible Western fighter today to the PAF to fulfill such a requirement. If Western fighters as a whole are a no-go, then this is a moot point, but if the PAF is still open to the idea (the previous CAS said he was looking both East and West) then the Gripen E/F is something to look at.


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## randomradio

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO Saab would likely take the safer route of using Leonardo's Vixen 1000E or Raven ES in any Pakistani offer, much simpler (as Leonardo is already involved with Pakistan).



There's the new Grifo-E available.



> Be it India or Pakistan, I'd say any race for Saab might be in the context of their respective next-gen efforts too.



India's practically given up on Saab. The focus has moved back to Rafale.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The flexibility of a multitude of offensive weapons that come available with the JF17 negates any advantage that the Grippen would have over the JF17 in our arena---.



The Gripen E has 10 hardpoints and its wing and fuselage have been redesigned to hold a lot more.






You won't find an equivalent weapons loadout for either JF-17 blocks.



ziaulislam said:


> Gripen ng has everything 33% more than jf17 while gripen c is similar to jf17
> The reason is better engine..its not twice or 50%
> If block 3 does get engine upgrade it will be similar to gripen



The entire Gripen airframe has seen redesign. Just look at the pic above and tell me whether that's just 33% more.

LCA Mk1 and JF-17 are very similar when it comes to range and payload, even the weapons layout. Gripen E is a generation ahead in terms of design.

As for Block 3, even with a new engine, you will still have to redesign the airframe if you want to achieve Gripen E's capabilities.


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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> But the US apparently allowed the LHTEC turboshaft to slide through with the T129, and hasn't done anything to stop the GE gas turbines for the MILGEM.
> 
> To be honest, we don't know if Khawaja Asif's statements re: Jordan are correct, especially as the PAF hasn't commented to that effect, not even when the CAS explicitly called the US out for bailing on the CSF/FMF (you'd think he would say something of Jordan?)
> 
> The point re: the Gripen E/F wasn't the electronics, but the range and payload capabilities, which can benefit the PAF in some fronts (i.e. maritime ops) sooner.



Thats a fair assessment. But will the chinese want the swedes getting so up close and personal with their design. I grant its not used by PLAAF, but it is their design and their manufacturing standards. They may not be keen to letting Europeans near their designs.


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## randomradio

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Block-III will not have the same physical/airframe improvements as the Gripen E/F, i.e. no new engine, not many range/payload improvements (maybe 9 hardpoints, but the 2 new ones may be for special mission pods, not weapons), no major airframe changes.
> 
> Basically, the point of Block-III is to bring AESA and other new tech to the mainstay PAF fleet, but it's not there to drastically alter range coverage or weapon carrying capability.



So the Block 3 is no different from the LCA Mk1A then?



Tank131 said:


> Thats a fair assessment. But will the chinese want the swedes getting so up close and personal with their design. I grant its not used by PLAAF, but it is their design and their manufacturing standards. They may not be keen to letting Europeans near their designs.



The Chinese have no problem with Europeans messing around with the JF-17. Italy and France were once prime candidates for the JF-17's avionics build. Italy still is an option. Leonardo's new AESA radar and Virgilius EW suite are available for export.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The point re: the Gripen E/F wasn't the electronics, but the range and payload capabilities, which can benefit the PAF in some fronts (i.e. maritime ops) sooner.



With the exception of the larger radar and payload, the Gripen E is significantly superior to the Su-30MKI. It can lug two cruise missiles for maritime strike and can perform air defence with 6 AAMs in the same sortie.


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## Tank131

randomradio said:


> So the Block 3 is no different from the LCA Mk1A then?
> 
> 
> 
> The Chinese have no problem with Europeans messing around with the JF-17. Italy and France were once prime candidates for the JF-17's avionics build. Italy still is an option. Leonardo's new AESA radar and Virgilius EW suite are available for export.



Providing electronics is not the same as re-engineering a design. PAFs JF-17 use a spanish Indra ALR-400 RWR but its Pakistan that installed it. Same would be for other electronics.

Also remember those electronics werent chosen because chinese didn't want Europeans accessing their weapons' source codes and vis a versa. 



ziaulislam said:


> Indian usa citizens are way more influential educated and way more united than Pakistani .



Influential yes, more educated probably not (more likely on even footing). Outside of NYC most pakistanis in US are professionals (doctors, lawyers, businessmen, engineers etc). The Pakistani diaspora in the US is not the same as in western europe. They are the largest Muslim immigrant community and the Muslim community as a whole is the single most educated, highest financial and educationally attaining community in the US. It has no influence for 3 major reasons. 

1. Muslims are insular in many foreign places, preferring to meet only their own people and not interact with the community at large (thats changing thank God). 

2. Muslims, Pakistani in particular, are kanjuse as hell abd dont want to open their wallets, neither for causes or political purposes (he who contributes to the campaign has the influence).

3. Pakistanis go into to private sector and prefer to make $$$ whereas many Indians and Jews go into academics and public sector/service. In that way they bring up others from their communities (be it into schools or government posts) amd Pakistani have no presence in these positions. When they do only 50% help other Pakistanis while the other 50% will try to trash the other Pakistani or at best not help get him/her a leg up. When you go only into private sector jobs you may have money, but if you dont spend it wisely you still have no influence. Money buys power if you spend it for power If you spend it for a Mercedes, all you are left with is a nice car.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> Thats a fair assessment. But will the chinese want the swedes getting so up close and personal with their design. I grant its not used by PLAAF, but it is their design and their manufacturing standards. They may not be keen to letting Europeans near their designs.


IMO this is manageable. E.g. an extended range fighter is needed most in SAC, the PAF can re-purpose Masroor or Bholari to just carry the specific asset (e.g. Gripen E/F) with compatibles (e.g. Erieye) and let the OEM conduct its regular assessments. Unlike the US, the Swedes aren't there for extra-curricular purposes, so having them reside at Bholari (and that too under safe watch by the PAF's SSW, who will guard the combat assets from other threats) is all workable.

Seriously, I think we Pakistanis have forgotten (or not learned) how to "push" when there's space available to do so. Sure, India can dangle a giant bid to lure the Swedes, but if we were shrewd enough we'd have our negotiators tell the Swedes that we can guarantee a sale right now because we see alignment, whereas the Indians (and we should be able to argue this convincingly) are likely to favour the US or Russia for geo-strategic reasons, all the while Saab wastes time and money in a marketing risk. It may not be an inherently true argument on our end, but it's a skill I think other countries engage in so well while we simply let others shape reality for us...

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## ziaulislam

randomradio said:


> There's the new Grifo-E available.
> 
> 
> 
> India's practically given up on Saab. The focus has moved back to Rafale.
> 
> 
> 
> The Gripen E has 10 hardpoints and its wing and fuselage have been redesigned to hold a lot more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You won't find an equivalent weapons loadout for either JF-17 blocks.
> 
> 
> 
> The entire Gripen airframe has seen redesign. Just look at the pic above and tell me whether that's just 33% more.
> 
> LCA Mk1 and JF-17 are very similar when it comes to range and payload, even the weapons layout. Gripen E is a generation ahead in terms of design.
> 
> As for Block 3, even with a new engine, you will still have to redesign the airframe if you want to achieve Gripen E's capabilities.


Ofcourse...
I don't know what block 3 holds ..if rd 93 ma is truely the engine than it does bring 15% more thrust..if B version is the basis of block3 it does bring more wing area ..this would mean block3 might see a major change , enough to improve its payload and range by 20%-30... This may also mean additional points under the wing..definitively 1 more under the airtake

We akready know it has an AESA ...

So only time will tell whther block3 will be a gripen like evolution or just a simple update or something inbetween

My personal guess is that wait time is too much for it to be a simple update



Tank131 said:


> Providing electronics is not the same as re-engineering a design. PAFs JF-17 use a spanish Indra ALR-400 RWR but its Pakistan that installed it. Same would be for other electronics.
> 
> Also remember those electronics werent chosen because chinese didn't want Europeans accessing their weapons' source codes and vis a versa.
> 
> 
> 
> Influential yes, more educated probably not (more likely on even footing). Outside of NYC most pakistanis in US are professionals (doctors, lawyers, businessmen, engineers etc). The Pakistani diaspora in the US is not the same as in western europe. They are the largest Muslim immigrant community and the Muslim community as a whole is the single most educated, highest financial and educationally attaining community in the US. It has no influence for 3 major reasons.
> 
> 1. Muslims are insular in many foreign places, preferring to meet only their own people and not interact with the community at large (thats changing thank God).
> 
> 2. Muslims, Pakistani in particular, are kanjuse as hell abd dont want to open their wallets, neither for causes or political purposes (he who contributes to the campaign has the influence).
> 
> 3. Pakistanis go into to private sector and prefer to make $$$ whereas many Indians and Jews go into academics and public sector/service. In that way they bring up others from their communities (be it into schools or government posts) amd Pakistani have no presence in these positions. When they do only 50% help other Pakistanis while the other 50% will try to trash the other Pakistani or at best not help get him/her a leg up. When you go only into private sector jobs you may have money, but if you dont spend it wisely you still have no influence. Money buys power if you spend it for power If you spend it for a Mercedes, all you are left with is a nice car.


Nope no... Indians are far far more educated than Pakistanis..especially the second generation

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## randomradio

ziaulislam said:


> Ofcourse...
> I don't know what block 3 holds ..if rd 93 ma is truely the engine than it does bring 15% more thrust..if B version is the basis of block3 it does bring more wing area ..this would mean block3 might see a major change , enough to improve its payload and range by 20%-30... This may also mean additional points under the wing..definitively 1 more under the airtake
> 
> We akready know it has an AESA ...
> 
> So only time will tell whther block3 will be a gripen like evolution or just a simple update or something inbetween
> 
> My personal guess is that wait time is too much for it to be a simple update



I think the Block 3 design was frozen in early 2018. And production is to begin in 2019-20. So that's not a lot of time for extensive upgrades to the airframe.


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## ziaulislam

randomradio said:


> I think the Block 3 design was frozen in early 2018. And production is to begin in 2019-20. So that's not a lot of time for extensive upgrades to the airframe.


And was started on 2015..this is 3 years ..more than ample time..


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## randomradio

ziaulislam said:


> And was started on 2015..this is 3 years ..more than ample time..



That was the time it took to make a paper design.

I have my doubts because this is what @Bilal Khan (Quwa) pointed out in the previous page and makes sense based on the time frame:
_The Block-III will not have the same physical/airframe improvements as the Gripen E/F, i.e. no new engine, not many range/payload improvements (maybe 9 hardpoints, but the 2 new ones may be for special mission pods, not weapons), no major airframe changes.

Basically, the point of Block-III is to bring AESA and other new tech to the mainstay PAF fleet, but it's not there to drastically alter range coverage or weapon carrying capability._


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## ziaulislam

randomradio said:


> That was the time it took to make a paper design.
> 
> I have my doubts because this is what @Bilal Khan (Quwa) pointed out in the previous page and makes sense based on the time frame:
> _The Block-III will not have the same physical/airframe improvements as the Gripen E/F, i.e. no new engine, not many range/payload improvements (maybe 9 hardpoints, but the 2 new ones may be for special mission pods, not weapons), no major airframe changes.
> 
> Basically, the point of Block-III is to bring AESA and other new tech to the mainstay PAF fleet, but it's not there to drastically alter range coverage or weapon carrying capability._


 We don't know lets wait and see...key is engine ...whether rd93 gets mature or not


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## Tank131

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO this is manageable. E.g. an extended range fighter is needed most in SAC, the PAF can re-purpose Masroor or Bholari to just carry the specific asset (e.g. Gripen E/F) with compatibles (e.g. Erieye) and let the OEM conduct its regular assessments. Unlike the US, the Swedes aren't there for extra-curricular purposes, so having them reside at Bholari (and that too under safe watch by the PAF's SSW, who will guard the combat assets from other threats) is all workable.
> 
> Seriously, I think we Pakistanis have forgotten (or not learned) how to "push" when there's space available to do so. Sure, India can dangle a giant bid to lure the Swedes, but if we were shrewd enough we'd have our negotiators tell the Swedes that we can guarantee a sale right now because we see alignment, whereas the Indians (and we should be able to argue this convincingly) are likely to favour the US or Russia for geo-strategic reasons, all the while Saab wastes time and money in a marketing risk. It may not be an inherently true argument on our end, but it's a skill I think other countries engage in so well while we simply let others shape reality for us...



Very well said



ziaulislam said:


> Ofcourse...
> I don't know what block 3 holds ..if rd 93 ma is truely the engine than it does bring 15% more thrust..if B version is the basis of block3 it does bring more wing area ..this would mean block3 might see a major change , enough to improve its payload and range by 20%-30... This may also mean additional points under the wing..definitively 1 more under the airtake
> 
> We akready know it has an AESA ...
> 
> So only time will tell whther block3 will be a gripen like evolution or just a simple update or something inbetween
> 
> My personal guess is that wait time is too much for it to be a simple update
> 
> 
> Nope no... Indians are far far more educated than Pakistanis..especially the second generation



Bro, im a second generation American Pakistani and you have no idea what you are talking about. The demographics speak foe themselves. Pakistanis and Muslims in US in general have the highest academic attainment, the highest percentages (ie per person) of graduate degrees (higher than bachelors) and lowest unemployment in the country.





While he is speaking about Muslims in general, Pakistanis make up 39% of American Muslims, the largest group outside of native African Americans who are 40%.

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO this is manageable. E.g. an extended range fighter is needed most in SAC, the PAF can re-purpose Masroor or Bholari to just carry the specific asset (e.g. Gripen E/F) with compatibles (e.g. Erieye) and let the OEM conduct its regular assessments. Unlike the US, the Swedes aren't there for extra-curricular purposes, so having them reside at Bholari (and that too under safe watch by the PAF's SSW, who will guard the combat assets from other threats) is all workable.
> 
> Seriously, I think we Pakistanis have forgotten (or not learned) how to "push" when there's space available to do so. Sure, India can dangle a giant bid to lure the Swedes, but if we were shrewd enough we'd have our negotiators tell the Swedes that we can guarantee a sale right now because we see alignment, whereas the Indians (and we should be able to argue this convincingly) are likely to favour the US or Russia for geo-strategic reasons, all the while Saab wastes time and money in a marketing risk. It may not be an inherently true argument on our end, but it's a skill I think other countries engage in so well while we simply let others shape reality for us...



Hi,

Both the bases are too close to the border for a extended range aircraft---.

Your extended range aircraft must never be close to the enemy borders---.

To place them in a position of vulnerability from day minus 1---totally defeats the purpose of this type of aircraft---.

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## ziaulislam

Tank131 said:


> Very well said
> 
> 
> 
> Bro, im a second generation American Pakistani and you have no idea what you are talking about. The demographics speak foe themselves. Pakistanis and Muslims in US in general have the highest academic attainment, the highest percentages (ie per person) of graduate degrees (higher than bachelors) and lowest unemployment in the country.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While he is speaking about Muslims in general, Pakistanis make up 39% of American Muslims, the largest group outside of native African Americans who are 40%.


Just Google it...its not true

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## Tank131

ziaulislam said:


> Just Google it...its not true


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_Americans

Stop talking about things you dont know anything about. If i googled to find out about Pakistan it would show me that everyone is a west hating terrorist who subjugates women and lives in a mud hut.

Infact its so much to the point in this country that on the MCAT (med school acceptance test) , There are separate boxes in ethnicity question on personal info, that is marked for Pakistani (when typically we are lumped in as Asian/Pacific islander). Beyond that being Indian or Pakistani counts against you in college/graduate applications because we are "over represented minority". And after India (as there are far more of them than Pakistanis, Pakistan has contributed tye 2nd most physicians to the US Healthcare system, folkowed by Phillipines.So please...stop your BS.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> Ofcourse...
> I don't know what block 3 holds ..if rd 93 ma is truely the engine than it does bring 15% more thrust..if B version is the basis of block3 it does bring more wing area ..this would mean block3 might see a major change , enough to improve its payload and range by 20%-30... This may also mean additional points under the wing..definitively 1 more under the airtake
> 
> We akready know it has an AESA ...
> 
> So only time will tell whther block3 will be a gripen like evolution or just a simple update or something inbetween
> 
> My personal guess is that wait time is too much for it to be a simple update
> 
> 
> Nope no... Indians are far far more educated than Pakistanis..especially the second generation


Saab itself is saying the Gripen E/F is basically a different fighter to the Gripen C/D, and we can see it both in terms of the specifications and the time it took to develop, test and certify this aircraft (almost 10 years, end-to-end).

The Block-III's design was frozen in 2015 and is to enter production in 2019-2020, so there's no way we're talking about a significant re-design or re-engine. Such changes require a lot more time (just see the Gripen E/F).

That said, the Gripen E/F does provide a good template of what can be done for Project Azm. In this case, you have an engine which is an upgraded derivative of the GE F404, but is capable of lifting 1.5x more payload and providing more range than the current C/D. It also provides supercruise.

In other words (@MastanKhan @CriticalThought) the PAF can approach Project Azm in a similar way, i.e. achieve it a 1.5x range and payload increase over the Block-III, but with a low radar RCS airframe, all the while still benefiting from a relatively low-cost turbofan platform. This also fits with @messiach's statements about Project Azm 'not being a significant departure from the JF-17' while still respecting the idea of a next-generation fighter.

The only question is the engine. Naturally, the RD-93MA would have made sense initially as it's a relative of the RD-93 (much like the Gripen E/F's F414 is a relative of the C/D's F404), but a rumoured ~90kN afterburn thrust wouldn't cut it for a next-gen fighter with clear range and payload improvements. Rather, you'd need to reach the 98~100 kN thrust of the F414, which also respects @messiach's point that the engine for Azm will be new.

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## Avicenna

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Saab itself is saying the Gripen E/F is basically a different fighter to the Gripen C/D, and we can see it both in terms of the specifications and the time it took to develop, test and certify this aircraft (almost 10 years, end-to-end).
> 
> The Block-III's design was frozen in 2015 and is to enter production in 2019-2020, so there's no way we're talking about a significant re-design or re-engine. Such changes require a lot more time (just see the Gripen E/F).
> 
> That said, the Gripen E/F does provide a good template of what can be done for Project Azm. In this case, you have an engine which is an upgraded derivative of the GE F404, but is capable of lifting 1.5x more payload and providing more range than the current C/D. It also provides supercruise.
> 
> In other words (@MastanKhan @CriticalThought) the PAF can approach Project Azm in a similar way, i.e. achieve it a 1.5x range and payload increase over the Block-III, but with a sharp emphasis on low radar RCS, all the while still benefiting from a relatively low-cost turbofan platform. This also fits with @messiach's statements about Project Azm 'not being a significant departure from the JF-17' while still respecting the idea of a next-generation fighter.
> 
> The only question is the engine. Naturally, the RD-93MA would have made sense initially as it's a relative of the RD-93 (much like the Gripen E/F's F414 is a relative of the C/D's F404), but a rumoured ~90kN afterburn thrust wouldn't cut it for a next-gen fighter with clear range and payload improvements. Rather, you'd need to reach the 98~100 kN thrust of the F414, which also respects @messiach's point that the engine for Azm will be new.



If that’s the case, then Azm represents the eventual supplement and then replacement for the JF-17?

What about the top end; replacement of the F-16s?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Avicenna said:


> If that’s the case, then Azm represents the eventual supplement and then replacement for the JF-17?
> 
> What about the top end; replacement of the F-16s?


Re: Azm, basically ... PAC switches over to the Azm by 2030, then Azm takes over the fleet by 2040/2045 (let's say production is a lot slower than the JF-17 due to higher complexity, higher cost, etc).

As for the F-16 ... TF-X?

_“Importantly, joint collaboration on 5th generation fighter aircraft, commonly known as Turkish Fighter Development [TF-X] Program, will be a true flagship project between Pakistan and Turkey. 

Currently, the details and scope of collaboration and participation is being worked between the two governments for jointly undertaking this strategic project, which would further open new vistas of mutual cooperation of defence industries of the two countries.” _*Secretary of the MoDP, Lt. General (retired) Syed Muhammad Owais *to MSI Turkish Defence Review during IDEAS in November 2016.

_“We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them. For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made…” _*Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman* to Bol Narratives in April 2017 (link)

_“No [Pakistan] agreement with [Turkish Aerospace Industries] on TF-X, but sometime in near future it’s likely to figure in PAF’s new generation fighter aircraft requirement.”_ *Alan Warnes* in May 2017 (link)​
Given that we Pakistanis aren't allowed to have nice things, I'd say the TF-X stuff is all tentative. However, given that we've had officials (and a connected journalist) say it, it's not a cold wet dream

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## Avicenna

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Re: Azm, basically ... PAC switches over to the Azm by 2030, then Azm takes over the fleet by 2040/2045 (let's say production is a lot slower than the JF-17 due to higher complexity, higher cost, etc).
> 
> As for the F-16 ... TF-X?
> 
> _“Importantly, joint collaboration on 5th generation fighter aircraft, commonly known as Turkish Fighter Development [TF-X] Program, will be a true flagship project between Pakistan and Turkey.
> 
> Currently, the details and scope of collaboration and participation is being worked between the two governments for jointly undertaking this strategic project, which would further open new vistas of mutual cooperation of defence industries of the two countries.” _*Secretary of the MoDP, Lt. General (retired) Syed Muhammad Owais *to MSI Turkish Defence Review during IDEAS in November 2016.
> 
> _“We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them. For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made…” _*Air Chief Marshal Sohail Aman* to Bol Narratives in April 2017 (link)
> 
> _“No [Pakistan] agreement with [Turkish Aerospace Industries] on TF-X, but sometime in near future it’s likely to figure in PAF’s new generation fighter aircraft requirement.”_ *Alan Warnes* in May 2017 (link)​
> Given that we Pakistanis aren't allowed to have nice things, I'd say the TF-X stuff is all tentative. However, given that we've had officials (and a connected journalist) say it, it's not a cold wet dream



Yea inshAllah that’s the case. 

BAE involvement in the TFX and the unveiling of the Tempest makes it a lot more interesting in the sense that the TFX may be the beneficiary of technology and subsystems that will make it on to the Tempest.

Ideally, the TFX could make a very nice F-16 replacement.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Avicenna said:


> Yea inshAllah that’s the case.
> 
> BAE involvement in the TFX and the unveiling of the Tempest makes it a lot more interesting in the sense that the TFX may be the beneficiary of technology and subsystems that will make it on to the Tempest.
> 
> Ideally, the TFX could make a very nice F-16 replacement.


Yep if it means a 1:2 or 1:3 ratio between TFX and Azm by 2040, I'd take that any day over all 4+/4.5 gen fighter options today.

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## randomradio

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The only question is the engine. Naturally, the RD-93MA would have made sense initially as it's a relative of the RD-93 (much like the Gripen E/F's F414 is a relative of the C/D's F404), but a rumoured ~90kN afterburn thrust wouldn't cut it for a next-gen fighter with clear range and payload improvements. Rather, you'd need to reach the 98~100 kN thrust of the F414, which also respects @messiach's point that the engine for Azm will be new.



The RD-33 series can be uprated to 100KN.

There was a 91KN version being made called the RD-93MA and a 93KN RD-33MKM. You can push it to 98KN.

But it's not really something you can put on a next gen aircraft.


----------



## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Saab itself is saying the Gripen E/F is basically a different fighter to the Gripen C/D, and we can see it both in terms of the specifications and the time it took to develop, test and certify this aircraft (almost 10 years, end-to-end).
> 
> The Block-III's design was frozen in 2015 and is to enter production in 2019-2020, so there's no way we're talking about a significant re-design or re-engine. Such changes require a lot more time (just see the Gripen E/F).
> 
> That said, the Gripen E/F does provide a good template of what can be done for Project Azm. In this case, you have an engine which is an upgraded derivative of the GE F404, but is capable of lifting 1.5x more payload and providing more range than the current C/D. It also provides supercruise.
> 
> In other words (@MastanKhan @CriticalThought) the PAF can approach Project Azm in a similar way, i.e. achieve it a 1.5x range and payload increase over the Block-III, but with a low radar RCS airframe, all the while still benefiting from a relatively low-cost turbofan platform. This also fits with @messiach's statements about Project Azm 'not being a significant departure from the JF-17' while still respecting the idea of a next-generation fighter.
> 
> The only question is the engine. Naturally, the RD-93MA would have made sense initially as it's a relative of the RD-93 (much like the Gripen E/F's F414 is a relative of the C/D's F404), but a rumoured ~90kN afterburn thrust wouldn't cut it for a next-gen fighter with clear range and payload improvements. Rather, you'd need to reach the 98~100 kN thrust of the F414, which also respects @messiach's point that the engine for Azm will be new.




Hi,

As some of you might remember---a couple of three years ago I had stated over here---Paf will have to make the same changes in body in the BLK 3 as the ones Grippen is doing to the NG---a 50 million to a 100 million dollar project---.

And this comes back to the age old criticism of the Paf---the JF17 was 2 sizes too small an aircraft from the begining---and as @war&peace had mentioned as well---the original design was a bot larger---.

The problem with the Paf is that it has amongst other things---a very poor futuristic analytical capability---.

They failed to recognize 16 years ago that the futuristic aircraft would be carrying all packages pretty much on every aircraft---and every aircraft would be as capable in all aspects of battle as the other aircraft---even though they had the examples of the aircraft in front of them---.

Anyway---if they had any sense left---they would be using the design change in the Grippen as the benchmark for the BLK3---.

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## Avicenna

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> As some of you might remember---a couple of three years ago I had stated over here---Paf will have to make the same changes in body in the BLK 3 as the ones Grippen is doing to the NG---a 50 million to a 100 million dollar project---.
> 
> And this comes back to the age old criticism of the Paf---the JF17 was 2 sizes too small an aircraft from the begining---and as @war&peace had mentioned as well---the original design was a bot larger---.
> 
> The problem with the Paf is that it has amongst other things---a very poor futuristic analytical capability---.
> 
> They failed to recognize 16 years ago that the futuristic aircraft would be carrying all packages pretty much on every aircraft---and every aircraft would be as capable in all aspects of battle as the other aircraft---even though they had the examples of the aircraft in front of them---.
> 
> Anyway---if they had any sense left---they would be using the design change in the Grippen as the benchmark for the BLK3---.



If you look back at the time period of the development of the JF-17, its very fortunate that the program did as well as it did. 

The plane was being designed but access to an engine, any engine, was a major problem.

The fact that the Russians allowed the RD-93 is something to be thankful for.

I doubt the AL-31 was ever in the conversation.

So how could the Thunder have been any larger?

What manifested in the present plane was probably as much driven by political limitations as lack of foresight.

What I will give you is I don't understand how there isn't a J-10 variant in PAF service today.

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## randomradio

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> As some of you might remember---a couple of three years ago I had stated over here---Paf will have to make the same changes in body in the BLK 3 as the ones Grippen is doing to the NG---a 50 million to a 100 million dollar project---.
> 
> And this comes back to the age old criticism of the Paf---the JF17 was 2 sizes too small an aircraft from the begining---and as @war&peace had mentioned as well---the original design was a bot larger---.
> 
> The problem with the Paf is that it has amongst other things---a very poor futuristic analytical capability---.
> 
> They failed to recognize 16 years ago that the futuristic aircraft would be carrying all packages pretty much on every aircraft---and every aircraft would be as capable in all aspects of battle as the other aircraft---even though they had the examples of the aircraft in front of them---.
> 
> Anyway---if they had any sense left---they would be using the design change in the Grippen as the benchmark for the BLK3---.



Neither the Chinese nor the Russians currently have the engine to power what you speak of.


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## AbdulRehman Qureshi

Super Falcon said:


> Isnt goodrich indian brand sir



No Sir it’s not.

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## MastanKhan

Avicenna said:


> If you look back at the time period of the development of the JF-17, its very fortunate that the program did as well as it did.
> 
> The plane was being designed but access to an engine, any engine, was a major problem.
> 
> The fact that the Russians allowed the RD-93 is something to be thankful for.
> 
> I doubt the AL-31 was ever in the conversation.
> 
> So how could the Thunder have been any larger?
> 
> What manifested in the present plane was probably as much driven by political limitations as lack of foresight.
> 
> What I will give you is I don't understand how there isn't a J-10 variant in PAF service today.



Hi,

The F16 Mafia in the Paf was against it---.

Actually the programe has not done as well as it should have---. The French screwed up the Paf in retaliation---and that put the aircraft back by 10 years.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The *F16 Mafia* in the Paf was against it---.


The decision was done by Mirage Mafia instead.....

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## MastanKhan

randomradio said:


> Neither the Chinese nor the Russians currently have the engine to power what you speak of.



Hi,

That was the least of the problems---the J20 does not have the right engine either---but that has not stopped the progress of that aircraft---.

In modern warfare---engine is an important factor---but not THE FACTOR as it used to be in the past---.

Neither would the Rafle lose its edge and nor would thew Grippen lose its edge over the adversary if they have a weaker engine---.

Both these aircraft would engage and disengage from a distance where the importance and significance of an outrageously powerful engine come into force---.

And please don't be arguing anymore on the engine aspect---.

The power of the engine that is mentioned is a diversion from the real actual lethal equipment the aircraft carries---. The power of the engine MAY PLAY a secondary role---of little significance---.



Knuckles said:


> The decision was done by Mirage Mafia instead.....



Hi,

Okay---that is one way to get an answer---please expand on that---.


----------



## randomradio

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That was the least of the problems---the J20 does not have the right engine either---but that has not stopped the progress of that aircraft---.
> 
> In modern warfare---engine is an important factor---but not THE FACTOR as it used to be in the past---.
> 
> Neither would the Rafle lose its edge and nor would thew Grippen lose its edge over the adversary if they have a weaker engine---.
> 
> Both these aircraft would engage and disengage from a distance where the importance and significance of an outrageously powerful engine come into force---.
> 
> And please don't be arguing anymore on the engine aspect---.
> 
> The power of the engine that is mentioned is a diversion from the real actual lethal equipment the aircraft carries---. The power of the engine MAY PLAY a secondary role---of little significance---.



The point of the JF-17 is to create an evolutionary design, not a revolutionary design. Revolutionary takes time and money, neither of which is a luxury for the JF-17.

Both Rafale and Gripen would lose their edge with weaker engines. Even BVR requires high end engine performance.

And even when it comes to avionics, most of it is engine driven. So you need a good engine if you want your radar and other sensors working efficiently.


----------



## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Saab itself is saying the Gripen E/F is basically a different fighter to the Gripen C/D, and we can see it both in terms of the specifications and the time it took to develop, test and certify this aircraft (almost 10 years, end-to-end).
> 
> The Block-III's design was frozen in 2015 and is to enter production in 2019-2020, so there's no way we're talking about a significant re-design or re-engine. Such changes require a lot more time (just see the Gripen E/F).
> 
> That said, the Gripen E/F does provide a good template of what can be done for Project Azm. In this case, you have an engine which is an upgraded derivative of the GE F404, but is capable of lifting 1.5x more payload and providing more range than the current C/D. It also provides supercruise.
> 
> In other words (@MastanKhan @CriticalThought) the PAF can approach Project Azm in a similar way, i.e. achieve it a 1.5x range and payload increase over the Block-III, but with a low radar RCS airframe, all the while still benefiting from a relatively low-cost turbofan platform. This also fits with @messiach's statements about Project Azm 'not being a significant departure from the JF-17' while still respecting the idea of a next-generation fighter.
> 
> The only question is the engine. Naturally, the RD-93MA would have made sense initially as it's a relative of the RD-93 (much like the Gripen E/F's F414 is a relative of the C/D's F404), but a rumoured ~90kN afterburn thrust wouldn't cut it for a next-gen fighter with clear range and payload improvements. Rather, you'd need to reach the 98~100 kN thrust of the F414, which also respects @messiach's point that the engine for Azm will be new.



Sir, a few more facts. We know for sure that the larger AESA radar has required changes to the nose area for Block 3. This re-distribution of weight will require a retesting process. And since this is a fixed cost, it is likely that multiple changes may be lumped together.

The Block 3 doesn't have to start in 2019. If PAF needs a larger number of B version, then production may very well get pushed to 2020 (of course I am only hypothesizing here).

We know for a fact that negotiations for a better engine have been going on for a while. Your own articles noted the prospect some years ago.

Then there is the export market as well. We cannot say that customer demands and concerns will not determine Block 3 specs at all. Today, Gripen E is definitely a competitor and specs on Block 3 will have to match it.

Finally, I remember a statement (possibly by ACM Sohail Aman but not sure) that we cannot afford to make any mistakes with Block 3. So what are things we consider 'mistakes' in Block 1 and 2?


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## war&peace

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> As some of you might remember---a couple of three years ago I had stated over here---Paf will have to make the same changes in body in the BLK 3 as the ones Grippen is doing to the NG---a 50 million to a 100 million dollar project---.
> 
> And this comes back to the age old criticism of the Paf---the JF17 was 2 sizes too small an aircraft from the begining---and as @war&peace had mentioned as well---the original design was a bot larger---.
> 
> The problem with the Paf is that it has amongst other things---a very poor futuristic analytical capability---.
> 
> They failed to recognize 16 years ago that the futuristic aircraft would be carrying all packages pretty much on every aircraft---and every aircraft would be as capable in all aspects of battle as the other aircraft---even though they had the examples of the aircraft in front of them---.
> 
> Anyway---if they had any sense left---they would be using the design change in the Grippen as the benchmark for the BLK3---.


Sir, as per my understanding, PAF did not plan JF17 to be main stay or the leading A/C rather they were hopeful to combine with it F-16s or some other A/C. It was only meant to replace the Mirages. I think that was short-sightedness which still continues as now we know PAF is unable to get F-16s.. so it should have designed a platform of the F-16 i.e. medium weight. They didn't even work on its successor with larger size, they are not willing to get J10 or J11 and any other A/C is out of their hand..Project Azm is just on paper or in very very preliminary stage. So what are they doing...is beyond me...
PAF is just sitting on yesteryears laurels...in recent years, its performance has nothing to be proud of...most of the successes are by PA and air defences instead of our airforce. Where were they in Kargil conflict? they could defend their own airbases...As citizens of Pakistan we have the right to ask these questions and they have the responsibility to answer.

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## ziaulislam

CriticalThought said:


> Sir, a few more facts. We know for sure that the larger AESA radar has required changes to the nose area for Block 3. This re-distribution of weight will require a retesting process. And since this is a fixed cost, it is likely that multiple changes may be lumped together.
> 
> The Block 3 doesn't have to start in 2019. If PAF needs a larger number of B version, then production may very well get pushed to 2020 (of course I am only hypothesizing here).
> 
> We know for a fact that negotiations for a better engine have been going on for a while. Your own articles noted the prospect some years ago.
> 
> Then there is the export market as well. We cannot say that customer demands and concerns will not determine Block 3 specs at all. Today, Gripen E is definitely a competitor and specs on Block 3 will have to match it.
> 
> Finally, I remember a statement (possibly by ACM Sohail Aman but not sure) that we cannot afford to make any mistakes with Block 3. So what are things we consider 'mistakes' in Block 1 and 2?


I am also surprised that bilal is sating design was freezed in 2015. We just had a speech recently saying design was just recently finalized..if block 3 is non structural upgrade than it seems pretty long time (2014-15 to 2020)
Engine rd93ma gives a 15% boast on rd93 base model
Honestly we just have to wait..nobody thought jf17 b model will come up untill it showed up pretty quickly

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## Trango Towers

war&peace said:


> Sir, as per my understanding, PAF did not plan JF17 to be main stay or the leading A/C rather they were hopeful to combine with it F-16s or some other A/C. It was only meant to replace the Mirages. I think that was short-sightedness which still continues as now we know PAF is unable to get F-16s.. so it should have designed a platform of the F-16 i.e. medium weight. They didn't even work on its successor with larger size, they are not willing to get J10 or J11 and any other A/C is out of their hand..Project Azm is just on paper or in very very preliminary stage. So what are they doing...is beyond me...
> PAF is just sitting on yesteryears laurels...in recent years, its performance has nothing to be proud of...most of the successes are by PA and air defences instead of our airforce. Where were they in Kargil conflict? they could defend their own airbases...As citizens of Pakistan we have the right to ask these questions and they have the responsibility to answer.


oh dear...glass is not just half full but almost empty.
around the time of Kargil indeed Pakistan airforce was in poor shape but Musharraf send an open air message that if the Indians aircraft come attack Indian bases and keep doing it. Many aircraft are not available to Pakistan. those that are available may not be available re funding. limited funds being utilized for AZM and Air university etc. 
I and many people have total confidence in the air force. JF17 may not be a sexy plane but its effective. Indians are at bay. thats what matters. also if its that bad why have we got export sales.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> I am also surprised that bilal is sating design was freezed in 2015. We just had a speech recently saying design was just recently finalized..if block 3 is non structural upgrade than it seems pretty long time (2014-15 to 2020)
> Engine rd93ma gives a 15% boast on rd93 base model
> Honestly we just have to wait..nobody thought jf17 b model will come up untill it showed up pretty quickly


What they intended for the Block-III was decided in 2015 (e.g. AESA radar, HMD/S, etc). What they selected to fill those requirements with (e.g. KLJ-7A, etc) was done recently, so the prototype is under production. It doesn't mean there are major airframe changes (comparable to the Gripen E/F). Besides a shorter timeframe, we're also throwing less money at the JF-17 (vs. Saab on the Gripen).

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## Trango Towers

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> What they intended for the Block-III was decided in 2015 (e.g. AESA radar, HMD/S, etc). What they selected to fill those requirements with (e.g. KLJ-7A, etc) was done recently, so the prototype is under production. It doesn't mean there are major airframe changes (comparable to the Gripen E/F). Besides a shorter timeframe, we're also throwing less money at the JF-17 (vs. Saab on the Gripen).


i Think what Bilal means is the design envelope was finalized and selection process is continuing.

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## ziaulislam

Regardless unless there is quantum chmage in USA direction in Afghanistan USA will continue to pressure Pakistan and thus no used or subsidized f16 ..while new f16 are simply not cost effective given the political baggage they come with ...
So i doubt the f16 will change in number ..

But come next elections when somwone new comes things might change for good or bad

I doubt trump will be reelected


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## khanasifm

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> What they intended for the Block-III was decided in 2015 (e.g. AESA radar, HMD/S, etc). What they selected to fill those requirements with (e.g. KLJ-7A, etc) was done recently, so the prototype is under production. It doesn't mean there are major airframe changes (comparable to the Gripen E/F). Besides a shorter timeframe, we're also throwing less money at the JF-17 (vs. Saab on the Gripen).



Production w/o prototype assuming new sub systems there is already a block 3 somewhere being flown and tested, production will start once testing is completed that is the reason for 2019-20 production date at pac and interim additional block 2 being built 

Per Acm this is the first major upgrade of jf-17 previous one, block 2 was not considered as major but minor upgrade 

So assuming would need testing

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## Trailer23

ehhh... 
This is still a General Dynamics/Lockheed Martin F-16 Topic, right?



ziaulislam said:


> But come next elections when somwone new comes things might change for good or bad
> 
> I doubt trump will be reelected



I more concerned about the elections that we have to deal with in a couple of days.

Foreign Policies, under a new leader might bring change and we actually might have a better access to (some) Western Equipment.


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## messiach

Rubbish, we applied the principles of associative and disassociative segregation onboard FC1 in 2005 eg. HIDEC.



Trailer23 said:


> The Saab Gripen E. Not a bad a/c to have in ones fleet. Too bad we can't get our hands on it. Saab can sell us Eyrie, but not the Gripens'. What bull...

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## MastanKhan

messiach said:


> Rubbish, we applied the principles of associative and disassociative segregation onboard FC1 in 2005 eg. HIDEC.



Hi,

That is what I thought of the Modular design of the JF17---.

Grippen is a big " dramay baaz "---it has a great media team---Paf's media team sucks when it comes to marketing---.


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## messiach

You are walking in the right direction now. Some of the features they implemented in E (in the video i saw) we have already successfully implemented in FC1. @MastanKhan 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Saab itself is saying the Gripen E/F is basically a different fighter to the Gripen C/D, and we can see it both in terms of the specifications and the time it took to develop, test and certify this aircraft (almost 10 years, end-to-end).
> 
> The Block-III's design was frozen in 2015 and is to enter production in 2019-2020, so there's no way we're talking about a significant re-design or re-engine. Such changes require a lot more time (just see the Gripen E/F).
> 
> That said, the Gripen E/F does provide a good template of what can be done for Project Azm. In this case, you have an engine which is an upgraded derivative of the GE F404, but is capable of lifting 1.5x more payload and providing more range than the current C/D. It also provides supercruise.
> 
> In other words (@MastanKhan @CriticalThought) the PAF can approach Project Azm in a similar way, i.e. achieve it a 1.5x range and payload increase over the Block-III, but with a low radar RCS airframe, all the while still benefiting from a relatively low-cost turbofan platform. This also fits with @messiach's statements about Project Azm 'not being a significant departure from the JF-17' while still respecting the idea of a next-generation fighter.
> 
> The only question is the engine. Naturally, the RD-93MA would have made sense initially as it's a relative of the RD-93 (much like the Gripen E/F's F414 is a relative of the C/D's F404), but a rumoured ~90kN afterburn thrust wouldn't cut it for a next-gen fighter with clear range and payload improvements. Rather, you'd need to reach the 98~100 kN thrust of the F414, which also respects @messiach's point that the engine for Azm will be new.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

messiach said:


> You are walking in the right direction now. Some of the features they implemented in E (in the video i saw) we have already successfully implemented in FC1. @MastanKhan


To be honest, I'm liking the idea of an agile, cost-sensitive next-gen fighter.


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## MastanKhan

messiach said:


> You are walking in the right direction now. Some of the features they implemented in E (in the video i saw) we have already successfully implemented in FC1. @MastanKhan



Hi,

When the JF17 came out---the Paf was touting about its modular capabilities---thus putting it way ahead of everything else in its category---. Modular design was the mantra---.

And for over the years---this term disappeared as well---. A senior officer mentioned about the modular design for the engine space as well---that the aircraft was designed to accept couple of different engines in mind---.

And that comment was well apreciated and acknowledged by a respectable defense professional on defencetalkdotcom over a decade ago---.

So---what happened---over the years did someone in the Paf sabotaged their own product---?

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## CriticalThought

messiach said:


> You are walking in the right direction now. Some of the features they implemented in E (in the video i saw) we have already successfully implemented in FC1. @MastanKhan



Well, logically it does make sense. I have always wondered how come PAC is jumping straight into 5th gen design when they don't have any independent (I.e. without a partnership) experience of taking a project from conception to design, prototype, and production. But what kept throwing me off was the ACM's statement that future of PAC is making AESA radars and 5th gen jets in house. Also, I expected Block 3 to already feature low RCS given it will roll off the production line just after India receives first deliveries of Rafale. Pushing this to Azm means quite a number of years where the Rafale will reign supreme in South Asian skies. They better fix this with a 4.5+ gen purchase.

@Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Mahmood uz Zaman


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> Well, logically it does make sense. I have always wondered how come PAC is jumping straight into 5th gen design when they don't have any independent (I.e. without a partnership) experience of taking a project from conception to design, prototype, and production. But what kept throwing me off was the ACM's statement that future of PAC is making AESA radars and 5th gen jets in house. Also, I expected Block 3 to already feature low RCS given it will roll off the production line just after India receives first deliveries of Rafale. Pushing this to Azm means quite a number of years where the Rafale will reign supreme in South Asian skies. They better fix this with a 4.5+ gen purchase.
> 
> @Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Mahmood uz Zaman


IMO ... unless the plan is for that 4.5+ gen fighter to ultimately replace the F-16, I don't think the PAF will buy it to plug the gap between the JF-17 and 5th-gen. There's a sunk cost to inducting a new platform, so while the PAF may start with 30~40 jets, it'll want to add more to scale the upfront expense.


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## CriticalThought

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... unless the plan is for that 4.5+ gen fighter to ultimately replace the F-16, I don't think the PAF will buy it to plug the gap between the JF-17 and 5th-gen. There's a sunk cost to inducting a new platform, so while the PAF may start with 30~40 jets, it'll want to add more to scale the upfront expense.



Unfortunately, the result of Azm that you have described feels neither here nor there. Yes, we need numbers. But at the same time, we need an air superiority fighter, not in the sense that it only performs air to air duties, but in the sense that it rules the skies. Such fighters are by design meant to be inducted in small numbers - they are prohibitive otherwise. IMO, 2 to 3 squadrons of the latest incarnation of Su-35 with latest AESA radar and weapons package, along with 2 to 3 A-100 AEWACS is a must for air superiority. Then we also need S-400+ for air defence. At this point we can feel relatively certain about defending our homeland.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

CriticalThought said:


> Unfortunately, the result of Azm that you have described feels neither here nor there. Yes, we need numbers. But at the same time, we need an air superiority fighter, not in the sense that it only performs air to air duties, but in the sense that it rules the skies. Such fighters are by design meant to be inducted in small numbers - they are prohibitive otherwise. IMO, 2 to 3 squadrons of the latest incarnation of Su-35 with latest AESA radar and weapons package, along with 2 to 3 A-100 AEWACS is a must for air superiority. Then we also need S-400+ for air defence. At this point we can feel relatively certain about defending our homeland.


My point is that if the PAF opts for the Su-35, then the long-term outcome will be Su-35 + Project Azm. Basically, whatever off-the-shelf fighter the PAF commits to moving forward will replace the F-16. So if the Russians proceed with a new Su-35 variant with an AESA radar, and in turn, the PAF would opt for it then they won't be stop at 2~3 squadrons, but take it to 4~5 (72~90) and replace the F-16s by the mid-2030s. 

It might sound weird to maintain that many Su-35s, but it makes sense for the PAF as it'll scale infrastructure spending and ensure that a strong number of jets are operating when others are undergoing routine maintenance (a relatively frequent issue with the Flanker-series). 

IMO ... it'll be one of Su-35, J-10C, FC-31 or TF-X.


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## SQ8

CriticalThought said:


> Well, logically it does make sense. I have always wondered how come PAC is jumping straight into 5th gen design when they don't have any independent (I.e. without a partnership) experience of taking a project from conception to design, prototype, and production. But what kept throwing me off was the ACM's statement that future of PAC is making AESA radars and 5th gen jets in house. Also, I expected Block 3 to already feature low RCS given it will roll off the production line just after India receives first deliveries of Rafale. Pushing this to Azm means quite a number of years where the Rafale will reign supreme in South Asian skies. They better fix this with a 4.5+ gen purchase.
> 
> @Oscar @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Mahmood uz Zaman


A blueprint to move onto a 5th gen existed at Chengdu for many years. Again, old info but the PAF 6 years ago had 3 options available to it to exploit for 5th gen. Only 1 was the J31. 

Which means that there was clear availability of a designs from Chengdu and another vendor for a 5th gen route.

The “block-3” design is not being pushed to Azm. Rather, it is being made a stepping stone into AZM.
Moreover, there is no hold on them producing an upgraded block 2 in the interim while they sort out block-3.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> My point is that if the PAF opts for the Su-35, then the long-term outcome will be Su-35 + Project Azm. Basically, whatever off-the-shelf fighter the PAF commits to moving forward will replace the F-16. So if the Russians proceed with a new Su-35 variant with an AESA radar, and in turn, the PAF would opt for it then they won't be stop at 2~3 squadrons, but take it to 4~5 (72~90) and replace the F-16s by the mid-2030s.
> 
> It might sound weird to maintain that many Su-35s, but it makes sense for the PAF as it'll scale infrastructure spending and ensure that a strong number of jets are operating when others are undergoing routine maintenance (a relatively frequent issue with the Flanker-series).
> 
> IMO ... it'll be one of Su-35, J-10C, FC-31 or TF-X.


We have elections tomorrow and then we are likely to hear from any new government how bad our economy has been left by the PmL(N).
One of the major sources of “frustration” at times on this forum while discussing defense purchases is that many tend to ignore budgets and allocation in those budgets for New purchases.
After all, only after we have paid salaries, pensions, maintenance of current assets(from bases, housing to the oldest mirage),loan payments and bills does the remaining amount be allocated to new purchases.
Those purchases will also be on loans since we clearly arent in any economic shape to pay amounts for a proper down payment. For that our credit rating in the market matters and currently that is in a bad category.

So, while our discussions on pursuing 4.5gen airplanes from any supplier not willing to consider us for a long term low interest loan isn’t pointless, it is quite unlikely that any purchase will happen until our economic situation improves considerably.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> A blueprint to move onto a 5th gen existed at Chengdu for many years. Again, old info but the PAF 6 years ago had 3 options available to it to exploit for 5th gen. Only 1 was the J31.
> 
> Which means that there was clear availability of a designs from Chengdu and another vendor for a 5th gen route.
> 
> The “block-3” design is not being pushed to Azm. Rather, it is being made a stepping stone into AZM.
> Moreover, there is no hold on them producing an upgraded block 2 in the interim while they sort out block-3.
> 
> 
> We have elections tomorrow and then we are likely to hear from any new government how bad our economy has been left by the PmL(N).
> One of the major sources of “frustration” at times on this forum while discussing defense purchases is that many tend to ignore budgets and allocation in those budgets for New purchases.
> After all, only after we have paid salaries, pensions, maintenance of current assets(from bases, housing to the oldest mirage),loan payments and bills does the remaining amount be allocated to new purchases.
> Those purchases will also be on loans since we clearly arent in any economic shape to pay amounts for a proper down payment. For that our credit rating in the market matters and currently that is in a bad category.
> 
> So, while our discussions on pursuing 4.5gen airplanes from any supplier not willing to consider us for a long term low interest loan isn’t pointless, it is quite unlikely that any purchase will happen until our economic situation improves considerably.


Though 'pie-in-the-sky' ... the PAF saying it would consider the TF-X is, actually, a realistic statement. How/Why? Because the TF-X itself is a distant factor (post-2030), which basically means that any traction in that regard is a distant factor. It wouldn't surprise me if the PAF skips the 4.5/4+ issue entirely and (1) either consolidates into a Project Azm-only fleet or (2) procures a second, larger FGF via TF-X or some other consortium.


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## Storm Force

CriticalThought said:


> Unfortunately, the result of Azm that you have described feels neither here nor there. Yes, we need numbers. But at the same time, we need an air superiority fighter, not in the sense that it only performs air to air duties, but in the sense that it rules the skies. Such fighters are by design meant to be inducted in small numbers - they are prohibitive otherwise. IMO, 2 to 3 squadrons of the latest incarnation of Su-35 with latest AESA radar and weapons package, along with 2 to 3 A-100 AEWACS is a must for air superiority. Then we also need S-400+ for air defence. At this point we can feel relatively certain about defending our homeland.





NO OFFENCE but that sounds like the current Template of the IAF

ie 272 SU30MKI of which 140 are going to upgraded to Super MKI = estimated cost upgrade $8 billion

36 high end hyper expensive rafales F3 for $9 billion dollars ( current talks of 36 more by 2025)

recent deal for 5 regiments of S400 ABM =cost of $5billion 

2 more ISRAELI Phalcon awacs @ $500 million each 

* THE COST IS huge


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## Avicenna

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Though 'pie-in-the-sky' ... the PAF saying it would consider the TF-X is, actually, a realistic statement. How/Why? Because the TF-X itself is a distant factor (post-2030), which basically means that any traction in that regard is a distant factor. It wouldn't surprise me if the PAF skips the 4.5/4+ issue entirely and (1) either consolidates into a Project Azm-only fleet or (2) procures a second, larger FGF via TF-X or some other consortium.



I know money is obviously an issue.

But to wait for Azm and TFX risks PAF being caught with its pants down if hostilities ever break out.

Given the politically uncertain world at present this is a real danger wouldn't you say?

I would say if any oppurtunity presents itself to feasibly introduce a 4.5G plane PAF should do it.

Imagine for a second if war broke out between India and Pakistan in the 1989-2005 time period.

In retrospect it was probably erroneous to skip the Mirage F1.

Lets not make the same mistake and rely on future platforms without proper regard to rectifying tactical deficiencies in the present force.

Of course PAF knows what they are much more so than us living room air marshals.

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## BATMAN

MastanKhan said:


> So---what happened---over the years did someone in the Paf sabotaged their own product---?



My impression is YES, some thing did happened not only with product but plan was there to destroy the whole facility.
Attack at Kamra is as incomprehensible... as US raid at Abbottabad.
Surely some one from PAF did got rich during Zardari rule.... may be he was in marketing or administration.... and yes JF-17 development funds were blocked during the rule of Zardari.

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## messiach

No it was always there. Kernels are independently & dependently 100% configurable. Fourth generation would be unimaginable without such privilege.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> When the JF17 came out---the Paf was touting about its modular capabilities---thus putting it way ahead of everything else in its category---. Modular design was the mantra---.
> 
> And for over the years---this term disappeared as well---. A senior officer mentioned about the modular design for the engine space as well---that the aircraft was designed to accept couple of different engines in mind---.
> 
> And that comment was well apreciated and acknowledged by a respectable defense professional on defencetalkdotcom over a decade ago---.
> 
> So---what happened---over the years did someone in the Paf sabotaged their own product---?



Block3 will be used as a testbed for FGF incld turbines. Watch it. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @CriticalThought 



Oscar said:


> The “block-3” design is not being pushed to Azm. Rather, it is being made a stepping stone into AZM. Moreover, there is no hold on them producing an upgraded block 2 in the interim while they sort out block-3.

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## BATMAN

Avicenna said:


> But to wait for Azm and TFX risks PAF being caught with its pants down if hostilities ever break out.



As usually, curious ones will find ever huge pipe, under the PAF pants.
So... no worries of hostilities breaking out, as of today.



Avicenna said:


> Imagine for a second if war broke out between India and Pakistan in the 1989-2005 time period.


Between 1989 - 2005 is a period of 16 years.... it can't be measured with common gauge. Pakistan's military situation kept changing in those years, it may be worst during the time of Kargil war, but immediately after, Pakistan was ranked worlds leading arms buyer from the period between 2002-2004.
I imagine, if Pakistan can screw Indians in 1999, outcome in rest of the years wouldn't be much different.


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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Though 'pie-in-the-sky' ... the PAF saying it would consider the TF-X is, actually, a realistic statement. How/Why? Because the TF-X itself is a distant factor (post-2030), which basically means that any traction in that regard is a distant factor. It wouldn't surprise me if the PAF skips the 4.5/4+ issue entirely and (1) either consolidates into a Project Azm-only fleet or (2) procures a second, larger FGF via TF-X or some other consortium.



Hi,

TFX is a bad choice---. Sanctions are looming over Turkey regarding F35---thge US congress just did something yesterday that might create problems with thedelivery---.

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## HannibalBarca

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> TFX is a bad choice---. Sanctions are looming over Turkey regarding F35---thge US congress just did something yesterday that might create problems with thedelivery---.



Actually F-35 "potential" ban/restriction to Turkey...Could end up as an interesting "Boost" to national fighter as TF-X.
Turkey got already/in the Making a Technological base that is growing at an interesting pace. Key Techs are being Acquired/Funded massively.
Every Key component/Tech is going to be "Homemade" via the full vertical R&D or via ToT for TF-X.

But ofc, in that situation the initial deadline would not be meet, with "Maybe" at least a Decade behind schedule.

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## Avicenna

The success of the TFX is incredibly important for a variety of reasons.


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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> TFX is a bad choice---. Sanctions are looming over Turkey regarding F35---thge US congress just did something yesterday that might create problems with thedelivery---.


https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/...on-turkeys-future-f-35-program-pentagon-says/


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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/...on-turkeys-future-f-35-program-pentagon-says/



Hi,

That is old news---. US congress had made some changes yesterday or last friday---.

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## AsifIjaz

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> TFX is a bad choice---. Sanctions are looming over Turkey regarding F35---thge US congress just did something yesterday that might create problems with thedelivery---.


Restrictions or sanctions against turkey would definitely slow the pace and dent the time frame for TFX as well but it would also force turkey to build more stuff in house. Thats like pakistan in 1990s part 2. 
The turks but have a better engineering base than us but they would definitely need an appropriate engine from uk/china/Russia....
This scenario can act as a catalyst for Pakistan and Turkey defence relations. 
If both countries can navigate the 2020s and early 30s.. we might see a better and a less sanction prone end product. A contender to do that would be a possible jf17 block 4...which if introduced by 2022/23 and if it includes a further improvement of the airframe ...with an enhanced wingspan and a better and much rumored engine...then it should meet the requirements for both the countries, especially Pakistan.
My 2 cents

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## araz

AsifIjaz said:


> Restrictions or sanctions against turkey would definitely slow the pace and dent the time frame for TFX as well but it would also force turkey to build more stuff in house. Thats like pakistan in 1990s part 2.
> The turks but have a better engineering base than us but they would definitely need an appropriate engine from uk/china/Russia....
> This scenario can act as a catalyst for Pakistan and Turkey defence relations.
> If both countries can navigate the 2020s and early 30s.. we might see a better and a less sanction prone end product. A contender to do that would be a possible jf17 block 4...which if introduced by 2022/23 and if it includes a further improvement of the airframe ...with an enhanced wingspan and a better and much rumored engine...then it should meet the requirements for both the countries, especially Pakistan.
> My 2 cents


This is an interesting line of thought and very palusible. Both Pakistan and Turkey are in the limelight contrary to what we are fed in the international press. My main concern remains the period between 2020-2028. With a presumed production date of 2030 at this point in time and possible delays/set backs to 2035 being possible what does PAF do in the interim. Looking at it from an alternate prism it seems that the product in PAC's mind is either:
A) A low risk lo observable plane in the 2022-2028 period. 
B) A chinese product with input from the Turks with various subsystems which can make it comparable to the Wesern Systems (provided the Chinese cannot provide a compatible system to us). 
In Case of A) we can then collaborate with the Turks on the TFX. However a scenario of cost overruns and risks associated will again make me favour sticking with the Chinese for this venture. 
We are taking it as granted that the Chinese will not catch up to the west. But why is this thought process being projected? Between now and 2030 is 12 yrs. On the basis of chinese growth from 2006 to 2018, and the fact that once you reach a threshold your progress accelerates exponentially why do we see Pakistan dependent on the West for high end products and why do we not see the Chinese producing them by 2030? If J20 is anything to go by, the Chinese are there today, where Turkey is likely to be in 5-8 yrs. One can only hope on the basis of the Chinese having crossed the threshold of current developments to reach the end goal, their progress will speed up exponentially. This is a dilema I cannot solve.
A


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## royalharris

araz said:


> B) A chinese product with input from the Turks with various subsystems which can make it comparable to the Wesern Systems (provided the Chinese cannot provide a compatible system to us).


Forget about it
It is 5th G sensitive technology, No one allow the buyer integrated 3rd party subsystem


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## MastanKhan

AsifIjaz said:


> Restrictions or sanctions against turkey would definitely slow the pace and dent the time frame for TFX as well but it would also force turkey to build more stuff in house. Thats like pakistan in 1990s part 2.
> The turks but have a better engineering base than us but they would definitely need an appropriate engine from uk/china/Russia....
> This scenario can act as a catalyst for Pakistan and Turkey defence relations.
> If both countries can navigate the 2020s and early 30s.. we might see a better and a less sanction prone end product. A contender to do that would be a possible jf17 block 4...which if introduced by 2022/23 and if it includes a further improvement of the airframe ...with an enhanced wingspan and a better and much rumored engine...then it should meet the requirements for both the countries, especially Pakistan.
> My 2 cents



Hi,

I don't remember if we have communicated before---.

Your's is a FEEL GOOD ANSWER---. 

This the first volley from the US congress against Turkey---.

Pakistan's air force problem is a NOW PROBLEM---they don't have much to fight with now---they have no plans for the coming 5 years with established aircraft---.

What is 10 years away---maybe it might be 20 years away---.

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## araz

royalharris said:


> Forget about it
> It is 5th G sensitive technology, No one allow the buyer integrated 3rd party subsystem


I am working on the same principles on which JFT had multiple provider software/hardware included. Iam assuming no one has a problem provided PAF does the integration.
A


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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is old news---. US congress had made some changes yesterday or last friday---.


I'm sure it is. The TuAF pilots and maintainers are being trained on the F-35 regardless of what Congress says or not...

Congress is trying to push it politically without understanding the fact that a good portion of the F-35 systems are built in Turkey....


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## Avicenna

Knuckles said:


> I'm sure it is. The TuAF pilots and maintainers are being trained on the F-35 regardless of what Congress says or not...
> 
> Congress is trying to push it politically without understanding the fact that a good portion of the F-35 systems are built in Turkey....



That may so, but beyond the F-35, if Turkey continues not to tow the American-Israeli line, or at least seeks to pursue its own national interests above all, expect American antagonism to Turkey to continue and intensify.

As @MastanKhan said this is the first volley.

Turkey needs to keep how American politics and public opinion work in mind when planning for the future.

Just look at the western media in regards to the tone of the articles about Turkey. And think about whats happening.


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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> I'm sure it is. The TuAF pilots and maintainers are being trained on the F-35 regardless of what Congress says or not...
> 
> Congress is trying to push it politically without understanding the fact that a good portion of the F-35 systems are built in Turkey....



Hi,

This is the same comment that pakistani air force made prior to them getting sanctioned---.

" No problem---everything would be fine---we are allies---we are paying cash---the money is upfront---the training is going on as scheduled---".

The US congress cares less where the parts are built at---. They are like a rampaging elephant---.

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## Tipu7

Fellas, you are skipping the critical gap of 4.5th Generation air craft which PAF intends to procure before going for any stealth air craft.

A big circus is going on from past two years as far as decision body of PAF is concerned.
And most probably we will be seeing our old lovely bird in new cloths once again in PAF alongside surplus ones. An alternative option is also in place. The result of elections (I guess IK will be our PM now) and relevant geopolitical shift in Pakistan foreign policy and diplomatic relations will decide which option we will consider.

As far as stealth air craft is concerned, its long shot. In near past, three options were available, now there are two. First will be off the shelf purchase which will become part of PAF in less than a decade, Second is our own Next Generation Fighter (NGF) which is part of project Azm and hopefully will be arriving after 2030. 

And plz stop calling our 'indigenous 5th Generation air craft' as Project Azm, its called NSG, which later on is major component of Project Azm along side few other domestic projects.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> *This is the same comment that pakistani air force made prior to them getting sanctioned---.*
> 
> " No problem---everything would be fine---we are allies---we are paying cash---the money is upfront---the training is going on as scheduled---".
> 
> The US congress cares less where the parts are built at---. They are like a rampaging elephant---.


They said that the systems are built locally so Congress should think again ??


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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> They said that the systems are built locally so Congress should think again ??



Hi,

What do you think---Turkey would stop producing those parts---???


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## araz

Avicenna said:


> That may so, but beyond the F-35, if Turkey continues not to tow the American-Israeli line, or at least seeks to pursue its own national interests above all, expect American antagonism to Turkey to continue and intensify.
> 
> As @MastanKhan said this is the first volley.
> 
> Turkey needs to keep how American politics and public opinion work in mind when planning for the future.
> 
> Just look at the western media in regards to the tone of the articles about Turkey. And think about whats happening.


Turkey needs to gain independence from foreign providers and rely on home grown industrial output for its defence. There is no true independence without being free to venture even an opinion. Things are turning bad and the sooner Turkey does that the better. There will come a time when nothing that you do/say wil matter and the muslim world needs to prepare for it.
A


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

IMO if Turkey can't work with the West, it'll work with the East. The only constant is that they want to produce their own equipment - be it ships, tanks, fighter planes or rockets - and it'll get done one way or another. Now if they head East (e.g. China and Russia), then it makes working with Pakistan much, much easier.


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## Avicenna

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO if Turkey can't work with the West, it'll work with the East. The only constant is that they want to produce their own equipment - be it ships, tanks, fighter planes or rockets - and it'll get done one way or another. Now if they head East (e.g. China and Russia), then it makes working with Pakistan much, much easier.



Still its better to have access to Western wares. West is best at present.

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## royalharris

araz said:


> I am working on the same principles on which JFT had multiple provider software/hardware included. Iam assuming no one has a problem provided PAF does the integration.
> A


JFT is totally different with 5th G fighter


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## MastanKhan

Avicenna said:


> Still its better to have access to Western wares. West is best at present.



Hi,

Confrontation is not always the best option---. I would say that Turkey needs to step back a tad bit---keep the JV's with the west---but get Pakistan involved deeply---both holding the towline of the west---.

Turkey can keep a low key till the coming congress elections---step back and calmly observe---.

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## Avicenna

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Confrontation is not always the best option---. I would say that Turkey needs to step back a tad bit---keep the JV's with the west---but get Pakistan involved deeply---both holding the towline of the west---.
> 
> Turkey can keep a low key till the coming congress elections---step back and calmly observe---.



Yea I agree completely.

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## The Accountant

Avicenna said:


> Still its better to have access to Western wares. West is best at present.


yes but west is loosing control quicker than expected ... World trade is already out of their hand ... After demise of soviet union this is first time world is looking to China for alternative solutions ...

In such a situation can you afford an ally like Turkey ? Pakistan is almost already lost, within the Islamic world , only KSA and Egypt will remain in alliance which means that Islamic world is tilting towards China and this is bad for west ..


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## MastanKhan

The Accountant said:


> yes but west is loosing control quicker than expected ... World trade is already out of their hand ... After demise of soviet union this is first time world is looking to China for alternative solutions ...
> 
> In such a situation can you afford an ally like Turkey ? Pakistan is almost already lost, within the Islamic world , only KSA and Egypt will remain in alliance which means that Islamic world is tilting towards China and this is bad for west ..



Hi,

My advise to you would---not to think about an american problem with a pakistani mindset---.

If you have the ability---then look it thru the american mindset---thru american eyes---.

China cxan do retaliatory trade wars---but then america will strike militarily and smash it to kingdom come---.

they have done that before---a century plus ago---with Japan---.



Avicenna said:


> Yea I agree completely.



Hi,

Thank you---. People don't understand that the american displeasure grows exponentially---once it starts to build up---.

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## The Accountant

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> My advise to you would---not to think about an american problem with a pakistani mindset---.
> 
> If you have the ability---then look it thru the american mindset---thru american eyes---.
> 
> China cxan do retaliatory trade wars---but then america will strike militarily and smash it to kingdom come---.
> 
> they have done that before---a century plus ago---with Japan---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Thank you---. People don't understand that the american displeasure grows exponentially---once it starts to build up---.


Agreed but US is already too stretched to have any war ... For that purpose they are fueling india but indians will not dare to attack china ...


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## araz

royalharris said:


> JFT is totally different with 5th G fighter


Look at the time frame we are talking about -- late 20s early 30s. 5th generation woll not be that novel and subsystems will be sold.
A

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## MastanKhan

The Accountant said:


> Agreed but US is already too stretched to have any war ... For that purpose they are fueling india but indians will not dare to attack china ...



Hi,

The truth is that the US is not stretched thin---. It is just a 'smoke screen ' setup by the US defence department for more funds---.

The US military has enough firepower and some to spare to take on Russia and china at the same time.

Never ever believe when someone says the US military is weak---

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## The Accountant

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The truth is that the US is not stretched thin---. It is just a 'smoke screen ' setup by the US defence department for more funds---.
> 
> The US military has enough firepower and some to spare to take on Russia and china at the same time.
> 
> Never ever believe when someone says the US military is weak---


agreed but it was not the fire power that resulted in demise of soviet but its economy ... US is stretched in terms of enemies and its economy is already too debt burdened to bear any major war ... War with Japan was a differnt story as in WW2 there were no resources capable to attack US mainland but with modern weapon systems US can equally feel the heat ...

THere is no doubt that US is sole super power but US cannot harm China without burning itself therefore they will not directly engage China ... Even economically taking on China is harmful in long run as China owns most of the US debt


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## Army research

The Accountant said:


> agreed but it was not the fire power that resulted in demise of soviet but its economy ... US is stretched in terms of enemies and its economy is already too debt burdened to bear any major war ... War with Japan was a differnt story as in WW2 there were no resources capable to attack US mainland but with modern weapon systems US can equally feel the heat ...
> 
> THere is no doubt that US is sole super power but US cannot harm China without burning itself therefore they will not directly engage China ... Even economically taking on China is harmful in long run as China owns most of the US debt


Mr khan was not quoting world war 2 jap us war rather the 19th century when the US basically showed up with powerful galleys and battleships with massive cannons , in a Japan where the meiji reforms had not yet taken place and all other weapons except swords were banned, the Japanese had a isolated economy then no trade was allowed with foreigners but the Americans basically said open up your trade and trade with use or we will bomb you to kingdom come, this then triggered Japan to modernise and arm itself and it then still failed to defeat the US in world war 2 , the US single handedly fight the entire world alone , they invest 1 trillion a year in defence , the tech they have they are researching computers which can use more numbers than common binarys 0 and 1 , opening computational power never before even imagined

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## MastanKhan

The Accountant said:


> agreed but it was not the fire power that resulted in demise of soviet but its economy ... US is stretched in terms of enemies and its economy is already too debt burdened to bear any major war ... War with Japan was a differnt story as in WW2 there were no resources capable to attack US mainland but with modern weapon systems US can equally feel the heat ...
> 
> THere is no doubt that US is sole super power but US cannot harm China without burning itself therefore they will not directly engage China ... Even economically taking on China is harmful in long run as China owns most of the US debt




Hi,

That is what most people don't understand---it was indeed the firepower that subdued soviet russia---.

The real killer was the Book " The Hunt For Red October "---that showed the russians how impotent they were---. Clancy laid the russian subs and US technology out in the open---.

Hardly anyone knows about the US air strikes on russia in 1951---. The US air force smashed a russian air base and the russians took it silently---without even a whimper---maybe a 100 russian aircraft destroyed on the high side---and not a breath of a leak about the strike---.

the US fire power is monstrous---

The US wanted trade with japan---the japanese emperor refused at first---then Commodore Perry bombed the naval port and city from his ships---the japanese were helpless---they bowed down and signed----.

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## CriticalThought

Army research said:


> Mr khan was not quoting world war 2 jap us war rather the 19th century when the US basically showed up with powerful galleys and battleships with massive cannons , in a Japan where the meiji reforms had not yet taken place and all other weapons except swords were banned, the Japanese had a isolated economy then no trade was allowed with foreigners but the Americans basically said open up your trade and trade with use or we will bomb you to kingdom come, this then triggered Japan to modernise and arm itself and it then still failed to defeat the US in world war 2 , the US single handedly fight the entire world alone , they invest 1 trillion a year in defence , the tech they have they are researching computers which can use more numbers than common binarys 0 and 1 , opening computational power never before even imagined



Look if you are going to be awed by American technological excellence like a virgin with her husband on the first night, then maybe you are better off looking after your husband rather than posting here. Thus MastanKhan is an American agent who loses no opportunity to create an aura of American invincibility in people's minds.

Quantum computing isn't a solely American domain. In fact, we have one of the world's leading research programs here in Australia. There is research going on in China as well. There was a time when the Americans were relaticely secluded because of the oceans on two sides, an insular economy. And the rest of the world was too caught up in its own problems. Those times are gone now. Wealth is spreading in China, who is making sure there is a block of nations to support it. People have clued up to science and technology. And the decision to outsource manufacturing has caused America to lose its invulnerability. Today, the real advantage America has is that of numbers. It has Britain, France, Australia all willing to join against China in the SCS. These are in turn wealthy and technologically advanced nations. And as a block they are willing to defend their economic and geographic interests.

Power is both hard and soft. Half of American power comes from dolts who have no deep knowledge of science and technology, but get overawed that the Americans are researching higher order computing. Really, if you actually belong to the Armed Forces of Pakistan, then I am ashamed at the soldiers we are producing. Pathetic.

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## royalharris

araz said:


> Look at the time frame we are talking about -- late 20s early 30s. 5th generation woll not be that novel and subsystems will be sold.
> A


Are you sure?
F22 is 80s technology of last century,still confidential

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## randomradio

MastanKhan said:


> Hardly anyone knows about the US air strikes on russia in 1951---. The US air force smashed a russian air base and the russians took it silently---without even a whimper---maybe a 100 russian aircraft destroyed on the high side---and not a breath of a leak about the strike---.
> 
> the US fire power is monstrous---



It was 7 aircraft, and the situation was handled diplomatically. Neither side wanted the Korean War to escalate.


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## Army research

CriticalThought said:


> Look if you are going to be awed by American technological excellence like a virgin with her husband on the first night, then maybe you are better off looking after your husband rather than posting here. Thus MastanKhan is an American agent who loses no opportunity to create an aura of American invincibility in people's minds.
> 
> Quantum computing isn't a solely American domain. In fact, we have one of the world's leading research programs here in Australia. There is research going on in China as well. There was a time when the Americans were relaticely secluded because of the oceans on two sides, an insular economy. And the rest of the world was too caught up in its own problems. Those times are gone now. Wealth is spreading in China, who is making sure there is a block of nations to support it. People have clued up to science and technology. And the decision to outsource manufacturing has caused America to lose its invulnerability. Today, the real advantage America has is that of numbers. It has Britain, France, Australia all willing to join against China in the SCS. These are in turn wealthy and technologically advanced nations. And as a block they are willing to defend their economic and geographic interests.
> 
> Power is both hard and soft. Half of American power comes from dolts who have no deep knowledge of science and technology, but get overawed that the Americans are researching higher order computing. Really, if you actually belong to the Armed Forces of Pakistan, then I am ashamed at the soldiers we are producing. Pathetic.


Sir respectfully please mind your language thank you, 
What I was merely trying to imply is that as of now US fire power is too much for any nation to bear, this may or may not change in the near future however as of now facts point in this direction,
As much as I'd like to claim that Pakistan can take the Americans on easily I can't, however the weakness of the Americans is sub conventional warfare and that happens to be Pakistan's forte,
Don't address me disrespectfuly again please unless I have done the same to you, criticise my statements that's welcome but not calling me a virgin with her husband on the first night

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are as clueless about the subject matter that you always were---.
> 
> Absolutely no concept at all---.
> 
> *F 16 is late 60's early 70's technology---anyone able to duplicate it for performance---? It is the benchmark---.*
> 
> Don't you feel embarrassed with yourself with these sub standard posts---.


And the current F-16 benefits from that 40+ years of knowledge. It is still being tested and improved by the Flight Test Squadrons at Edwards AFB and Eglin AFB for experimental and operational tests respectively.

Not many have come close to duplicating its performance (as a Viper guy I maybe biased....closest I have seen that may be better is the Rafale...that machine can perform).....

Cheers !!!

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## randomradio

Knuckles said:


> And the current F-16 benefits from that 40+ years of knowledge. It is still being tested and improved by the Flight Test Squadrons at Edwards AFB and Eglin AFB for experimental and operational tests respectively.
> 
> Not many have come close to duplicating its performance (as a Viper guy I maybe biased....closest I have seen that may be better is the Rafale...that machine can perform).....
> 
> Cheers !!!



The new one isn't good though. Comes with a CFT with refueler. Without it, you get bad range and no refueling. With it, you barely get acceptable range, but inferior performance.

The variants you guys operate is better at air superiority, performance-wise.


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## Raider 21

randomradio said:


> The new one isn't good though. Comes with a CFT with refueler. Without it, you get bad range and no refueling. With it, you barely get acceptable range, but inferior performance.
> 
> The variants you guys operate is better at air superiority, performance-wise.


The A/B model is the best interceptor out there these days....even NATO has kept their jets long in the game. The new one is a class of its own...flies just as good and it can fly easily 2-2.5 hours without the CFT. Performance is still superb....


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## randomradio

Knuckles said:


> The A/B model is the best interceptor out there these days....even NATO has kept their jets long in the game. The new one is a class of its own...flies just as good and it can fly easily 2-2.5 hours without the CFT. Performance is still superb....



It failed to meet our performance requirements though. Even the Brazilians pointed out performance problems with the aircraft.

The F-16's peaked with the Block 50/52. Beyond that, they are just piling on whatever they can on top of everything in order to keep it relevant. The engine has been able to keep up with the weight increase, but the fuel load has not changed.


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## Raider 21

randomradio said:


> It failed to meet our performance requirements though. Even the Brazilians pointed out performance problems with the aircraft.
> 
> The F-16's peaked with the Block 50/52. Beyond that, they are just piling on whatever they can on top of everything in order to keep it relevant. The engine has been able to keep up with the weight increase, but the fuel load has not changed.


Nope. The IAF test pilots I met loved the aircraft for its performance. It was an issue of source code and limited license production keys that were being handed over due to fears of spare parts being sold on the black market through India....

Brazil were chasing a jet that would bring them the maximum benefit and best license production contract.


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## SQ8

Knuckles said:


> Nope. The IAF test pilots I met loved the aircraft for its performance. It was an issue of source code and limited license production keys that were being handed over due to fears of spare parts being sold on the black market through India....
> 
> Brazil were chasing a jet that would bring them the maximum benefit and best license production contract.



You’re replying to made up lines. Typical for this poster whose sole purpose is jingoistic B.S no matter how he has to twist it.

The IAF has flown the F-16 for many years via the Singaporeans and loved the platform. A primary reason for rejection was Pakistan and that we were technically more experienced on the jet versus them trying to make it their medium backbone.

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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> And the current F-16 benefits from that 40+ years of knowledge. It is still being tested and improved by the Flight Test Squadrons at Edwards AFB and Eglin AFB for experimental and operational tests respectively.
> 
> Not many have come close to duplicating its performance (as a Viper guy I maybe biased....closest I have seen that may be better is the Rafale...that machine can perform).....
> 
> Cheers !!!



Hi,

No---you are not biased---. The F16 is an out of this world machine---.

There is a reason that people want to know---what is "hidden" in area 51---. What makes the US fighter aircraft engine and aircraft technology so far out ahead of anyone else on this planet that 40 years old american design with modern upgrades can take out modern designs of other nations---.

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## Raider 21

Oscar said:


> You’re replying to made up lines. Typical for this poster whose sole purpose is jingoistic B.S no matter how he has to twist it.
> 
> *The IAF has flown the F-16* for many years via the Singaporeans and loved the platform. A primary reason for rejection was Pakistan and that we were technically more experienced on the jet versus them trying to make it their medium backbone.


Not to mention their test pilot graduates from USAFTPS have flown in F-16s as part of their test pilot course (ironically in former PAF birds).

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## MastanKhan

Army research said:


> Sir respectfully please mind your language thank you,
> What I was merely trying to imply is that as of now US fire power is too much for any nation to bear, this may or may not change in the near future however as of now facts point in this direction,
> As much as I'd like to claim that Pakistan can take the Americans on easily I can't, however the weakness of the Americans is sub conventional warfare and that happens to be Pakistan's forte,
> Don't address me disrespectfuly again please unless I have done the same to you, criticise my statements that's welcome but not calling me a virgin with her husband on the first night



Hi,

There was a senior mod on this board who used to brag about taking on the US military---I forget his name---.

After the Salala post incidence---he ran away from this board with his tail between his legs---.

There are many pothers in the Think Tank and mods / admins who used to come on strong---can't even show their faces---.

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## The Accountant

Sir I would like to disagree with you guys ...

In my opinion the events we are quoting are history as at that time US was protected naturally ... None of the countries was able to launch any attack on US mainland ... Max Japan could do even after modernization was attacking pearl harbor... But now things have changed ... First of all if US attack any of the major power; than they can retaliate by attacking back on US mainland ,,, furthermore, Chinese do not want any military campaign against US as they know US is much more power however, they have gathered enough firpower to protect their own mainland ...

But the most important part which was never done before is economic supremacy of China ... In past US was the manufacturing hub of the world ... The great wealth accumulated by US was due to the fact that when all the world was manufacturing weapons and consuming them in WW1 and WW2, US was manufacturing weapons and selling them rather than consuming them and was also making other factories ... Furthermore, when whole of the Europe, China and Japan were completely destroyed, US was the only country with infrastructure and was able to supply manufactured products to the world ...

But currently China owns the debt of US ... Any military or economic attack on China means China can dump US treasury bonds into the market resulting in severe devaluation of US Dollars and no one will prefer to trade internationally with an unstable currency and whole world will go into financial crisis with economic destruction of US ...

Hence destroying China is a suicide mission for US ...



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is what most people don't understand---it was indeed the firepower that subdued soviet russia---.
> 
> The real killer was the Book " The Hunt For Red October "---that showed the russians how impotent they were---. Clancy laid the russian subs and US technology out in the open---.
> 
> Hardly anyone knows about the US air strikes on russia in 1951---. The US air force smashed a russian air base and the russians took it silently---without even a whimper---maybe a 100 russian aircraft destroyed on the high side---and not a breath of a leak about the strike---.
> 
> the US fire power is monstrous---
> 
> The US wanted trade with japan---the japanese emperor refused at first---then Commodore Perry bombed the naval port and city from his ships---the japanese were helpless---they bowed down and signed----.





Army research said:


> Mr khan was not quoting world war 2 jap us war rather the 19th century when the US basically showed up with powerful galleys and battleships with massive cannons , in a Japan where the meiji reforms had not yet taken place and all other weapons except swords were banned, the Japanese had a isolated economy then no trade was allowed with foreigners but the Americans basically said open up your trade and trade with use or we will bomb you to kingdom come, this then triggered Japan to modernise and arm itself and it then still failed to defeat the US in world war 2 , the US single handedly fight the entire world alone , they invest 1 trillion a year in defence , the tech they have they are researching computers which can use more numbers than common binarys 0 and 1 , opening computational power never before even imagined

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## denel

The Accountant said:


> Sir I would like to disagree with you guys ...
> 
> In my opinion the events we are quoting are history as at that time US was protected naturally ... None of the countries was able to launch any attack on US mainland ... Max Japan could do even after modernization was attacking pearl harbor... But now things have changed ... First of all if US attack any of the major power; than they can retaliate by attacking back on US mainland ,,, furthermore, Chinese do not want any military campaign against US as they know US is much more power however, they have gathered enough firpower to protect their own mainland ...
> 
> But the most important part which was never done before is economic supremacy of China ... In past US was the manufacturing hub of the world ... The great wealth accumulated by US was due to the fact that when all the world was manufacturing weapons and consuming them in WW1 and WW2, US was manufacturing weapons and selling them rather than consuming them and was also making other factories ... Furthermore, when whole of the Europe, China and Japan were completely destroyed, US was the only country with infrastructure and was able to supply manufactured products to the world ...
> 
> But currently China owns the debt of US ... Any military or economic attack on China means China can dump US treasury bonds into the market resulting in severe devaluation of US Dollars and no one will prefer to trade internationally with an unstable currency and whole world will go into financial crisis with economic destruction of US ...
> 
> Hence destroying China is a suicide mission for US ...


With over a trillion T-bills in China's hand, just dumping a 1/3rd of it immediately make US currency useless. Both countries know it; unfortunately TIT has no clue as he has shown complete lack of economics.

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## CriticalThought

Army research said:


> Sir respectfully please mind your language thank you,
> What I was merely trying to imply is that as of now US fire power is too much for any nation to bear, this may or may not change in the near future however as of now facts point in this direction,
> As much as I'd like to claim that Pakistan can take the Americans on easily I can't, however the weakness of the Americans is sub conventional warfare and that happens to be Pakistan's forte,
> Don't address me disrespectfuly again please unless I have done the same to you, criticise my statements that's welcome but not calling me a virgin with her husband on the first night



First of all, drop the 'Sir' act. Second, what I despise even more than brain dead, thunderstruck fanboyism is when people start twisting words instead of owning up like a man. Your post was childish and exuded a defeatist mentality. Don't try to defend it. Third, I *am* going to reply to your posts, whenever I wish to reply and quote as I please.

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## v9s

denel said:


> With over a trillion T-bills in China's hand, just dumping a 1/3rd of it immediately make US currency useless.



A Pyrrhic victory - and unrealistic.


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## araz

v9s said:


> A Pyrrhic victory - and unrealistic.


I agree that the possibility of releasing those promisory notes is remote and the consequences would not be catastrophic for the US but for the whole world. The Chinese will not do it unless there is no other option left. It may start the 3rd world war so it is not a responsible act and the one thing we have learnt about the Chinese is that in your face k8nd of confrontation is not their modus operandi ---yet!!
A

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## Silicon0000

Learn from the Chinese ................ They never cross the threshold line of American infact always maintain a little gap in every front.


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## The Accountant

araz said:


> I agree that the possibility of releasing those promisory notes is remote and the consequences would not be catastrophic for the US but for the whole world. The Chinese will not do it unless there is no other option left. It may start the 3rd world war so it is not a responsible act and the one thing we have learnt about the Chinese is that in your face k8nd of confrontation is not their modus operandi ---yet!!
> A


This is hedge of China to make sure US do not make any stupid move ... Any agressive move could be suicidal and mutually destructive

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## Trailer23

The Topic is of '*PAF F-16*', so I thought i'd add a small 30sec Teaser that I just edited & posted on YouTube.

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## Army research

CriticalThought said:


> First of all, drop the 'Sir' act. Second, what I despise even more than brain dead, thunderstruck fanboyism is when people start twisting words instead of owning up like a man. Your post was childish and exuded a defeatist mentality. Don't try to defend it. Third, I *am* going to reply to your posts, whenever I wish to reply and quote as I please.


I never said not reply , it's not being a defeatist it's being a realist, tell me when 1000 modern fighter jets of the usaf start coming our country what will we do? Do a bit of research first, and I call people sir out of respect it's not a act


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## CriticalThought

Army research said:


> I never said not reply , it's not being a defeatist it's being a realist, tell me when 1000 modern fighter jets of the usaf start coming our country what will we do? Do a bit of research first, and I call people sir out of respect it's not a act



The US has a lot of fire power, correct. Now, can you tell me what is the most obvious weakness of the US, as highlighted in the war against Taliban?


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

CriticalThought said:


> The US has a lot of fire power, correct. Now, can you tell me what is the most obvious weakness of the US, as highlighted in the war against Taliban?



Taliban is the US's excuse for staying in Afghanistan. The US beat up Germany, you think they can't beat up Taliban?


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## Ultima Thule

undertakerwwefan said:


> Taliban is the US's excuse for staying in Afghanistan. The US beat up Germany, you think they can't beat up Taliban?


Where and When the US beat up Germany, Please explain @undertakerwwefan ???


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

pakistanipower said:


> Where and When the US beat up Germany, Please explain @undertakerwwefan ???



WW2 they did. Germany declared war on the US and the US sacrificed half a million men to beat Germany.


----------



## Ultima Thule

undertakerwwefan said:


> WW2 they did. Germany declared war on the US and the US sacrificed half a million men to beat Germany.


No then term is wrong, only US didn't beat up Germany at WW2, but Real term should needed to define is *ALLIED *(US+ MOST OF THE EUROPE) did beat up Germany @undertakerwwefan

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

pakistanipower said:


> No then term is wrong, only US didn't beat up Germany at WW2, but Real term should needed to define is *ALLIED *(US+ MOST OF THE EUROPE) did beat up Germany @undertakerwwefan



Still does not take away the fact that the US sacrificed half a million men and killed hundreds of thousands of well equipped German soldiers. US bombing was responsible for destruction of German infrastructure.


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## Ultima Thule

undertakerwwefan said:


> Still does not take away the fact that the US sacrificed half a million men and killed hundreds of thousands of well equipped German soldiers. US bombing was responsible for destruction of German infrastructure.


But US was not alone most of the EU were with them, so you sentence that "ONLY US BEAT UP GERMANS" at WW2 is not true/real @undertakerwwefan


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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

pakistanipower said:


> But US was not alone most of the EU were with them, so you sentence that "ONLY US BEAT UP GERMANS" at WW2 is not true/real @undertakerwwefan



The US wasn't fighting Germany only either. What about Japan? What about Italy? Those ain't pushovers. Taliban has no weapons. They can't even make a bullet. You think the US can't beat up Taliban?


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## Ultima Thule

undertakerwwefan said:


> The US wasn't fighting Germany only either. What about Japan? What about Italy? Those ain't pushovers.


Don't twist your words you are only saying about Germany and yes you're right Germans was had an allies within EU but compare to Allied forces, this gang (Germany and its Allies) worth nothing just 2-3 countries were German allies @undertakerwwefan


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## MastanKhan

undertakerwwefan said:


> The US wasn't fighting Germany only either. What about Japan? What about Italy? Those ain't pushovers. Taliban has no weapons. They can't even make a bullet. You think the US can't beat up Taliban?



Hi,

If Taliban had SA missiles---the US would have been out with its tail between the legs---.

US has no troops to fight a war at 8000 feet plus elevation---. It tried to for a short time---but the casualties got heavy---and supply lines stayed broken---.

Taliban can make bullets and guns as well---.

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## Army research

CriticalThought said:


> The US has a lot of fire power, correct. Now, can you tell me what is the most obvious weakness of the US, as highlighted in the war against Taliban?


I did say so that they are not good in unconventional warfare also they don't even want to win in Afghanistan then they will have no excuse to stay


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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If Taliban had SA missiles---the US would have been out with its tail between the legs---.
> 
> US has no troops to fight a war at 8000 feet plus elevation---. It tried to for a short time---but the casualties got heavy---and supply lines stayed broken---.
> 
> Taliban can make bullets and guns as well---.


one needs to see Ken Burn's vietnam series to understand. I watched it two months back and it is gut wrenching

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## Blueskiez 2001

The US didnt fight Germany alone. The turning point was the russians from the east front. Had Germany won the battle against the russians the US forces would never have been able to win in the western front.

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## MastanKhan

Blueskiez 2001 said:


> The US didnt fight Germany alone. The turning point was the russians from the east front. Had Germany won the battle against the russians the US forces would never have been able to win in the western front.



Hi,

Your assessment is incorrect---. The germans had no answer for the USAF---.

The germans had no answer for the 24 hour assembly lines running in the uniteds states producing thousands of aircraft---.

The germans had no chance against theUS industrial might---.

" In 1939, total aircraft production for the US military was less than *3,000 planes*. By the end of the war, America produced *300,000 planes*. No war was more industrialized than World War II. It was a war won as much by machine shops as by machine guns".

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## shawn52

Nice But We should Do it ourself


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## Blueskiez 2001

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your assessment is incorrect---. The germans had no answer for the USAF---.
> 
> The germans had no answer for the 24 hour assembly lines running in the uniteds states producing thousands of aircraft---.
> 
> The germans had no chance against theUS industrial might---.
> 
> " In 1939, total aircraft production for the US military was less than *3,000 planes*. By the end of the war, America produced *300,000 planes*. No war was more industrialized than World War II. It was a war won as much by machine shops as by machine guns".



Who is talking about the USAF??
Wars are not won by air superiority alone!!

U need to come up with another argument bro....

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your assessment is incorrect---. The germans had no answer for the USAF---.
> 
> The germans had no answer for the 24 hour assembly lines running in the uniteds states producing thousands of aircraft---.
> 
> The germans had no chance against theUS industrial might---.
> 
> " In 1939, total aircraft production for the US military was less than *3,000 planes*. By the end of the war, America produced *300,000 planes*. No war was more industrialized than World War II. It was a war won as much by machine shops as by machine guns".


Off topic and I am to close this tangent, but to further your point: China has over a billion souls but its GDP is 2/3rds that of the US which has 1/4th of the population of China.
The US is a juggernaut of manufacturing and innovation that the Chinese simply cannot hope to match until another 30 years.

The venerable F-117, supposedly retired 1st generation LO platform is currently testing new concepts out in the Nevada desert.

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## ziaulislam

Oscar said:


> Off topic and I am to close this tangent, but to further your point: China has over a billion souls but its GDP is 2/3rds that of the US which has 1/4th of the population of China.
> The US is a juggernaut of manufacturing and innovation that the Chinese simply cannot hope to match until another 30 years.
> 
> The venerable F-117, supposedly retired 1st generation LO platform is currently testing new concepts out in the Nevada desert.


To be honest if you are comparing GDP u have to look at PPP not nominal

Things will not change but if usa stop immigration which might happen..things will change drastically ...


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## Trailer23

*Lockheed Martin reportedly set to build all F-16 wings in India*
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/04/lockheed-martin-set-to-build-all-f-16-wings-in-india.html
Source:cnbc

A few takeaways in regard to India (Tata Advanced Systems) getting the contract for building the Wings for the future Lockheed Martin F-16's.
*
1.* I don't know any country that builds parts for an aircraft (Military or Commercial) and does not have it in service.
*Note*: The deal was not dependent on India buying F-16's.
*
2.* Currently, the Royal Bahraini Air Force is the only customer for the F-16 when they placed the order a couple of months back for 16 Block-70.
Now, i've been looking up - and have yet to find any details on when they will start delivery of those jets. However, according to the official website of Lockheed Martin - they are already talking about the 150 and 200 new jobs in Greenville, South Carolina and 450 U.S. suppliers in 42 States.

Tata Advanced Systems (TASL) is planning to set up production in Hyderabad, but that too is not gonna happen overnight...

Thoughts...


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## Raider 21

Oscar said:


> Off topic and I am to close this tangent, but to further your point: China has over a billion souls but its GDP is 2/3rds that of the US which has 1/4th of the population of China.
> The US is a juggernaut of manufacturing and innovation that the Chinese simply cannot hope to match until another 30 years.
> 
> *The venerable F-117, supposedly retired 1st generation LO platform is currently testing new concepts out in the Nevada desert.*


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## messiach

flying wings have limited utility, conservative designs are more versatile and far efficient. 


Knuckles said:


>

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## Imran Khan

Why USAF on maverick missiles ?

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## SQ8

Imran Khan said:


> Why USAF on maverick missiles ?
> 
> 
> View attachment 497240


Taken from their excess stocks. They have switched to the G&H versions, we bougjt their stocks of D’s.

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## Windjammer

__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## Signalian

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The 2nd world war was won on the western front by the air force---smashed the german industrial complex---.
> 
> I knew a german family that lived thru that bombing---Dresden was just an example---the USAF was dominating the skies and would have obliterated any or all german cities---.
> 
> How about the 1st gulf war---.
> 
> More advanced a nation is---the more it depends on its industrial complex bigger and massive the destruction would be---.
> 
> The sooner they would lay their arms down---.
> 
> Now if you compare it to Afghanistan---that is a different story---.



Although i am of the opinion that PAF modernization through induction of state-of-the-art jets is necessary, and not just light JF-17's but other types like heavy and stealthy aircrafts, the modern precise bombing runs are also conducted by UCAV's. I am not aware of Carpet bombings in recent era like the ones occurring in WW2.

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## MastanKhan

Signalian said:


> Although i am of the opinion that PAF modernization through induction of state-of-the-art jets is necessary, and not just light JF-17's but other types like heavy and stealthy aircrafts, the modern precise bombing runs are also conducted by UCAV's. I am not aware of Carpet bombings in recent era like the ones occurring in WW2.



Hi,

UCAV's will not be able to do the job that a strike aircraft would be able to---. In an environment with heavy heavy jamming---the UCAv's maybe of not much value---.

For lighter mission loads and small targets---the ucav's would work---but when you have to travel long distances---the pilot still is the master of the skies---.

The only nations capable of carpet bombing are the US and russia---no one else have heavy bombers to do that anymore---. The modern heavy strike aircraft come close to doing that---.

Off course the modern day smart bombs do more damage than older versions due to precision strikes---but then when you are facing an opponent twice your size in numbers---there have to be effective means to strike back---.

You also have to keep in mind the " fear factor "---does the " smart " enemy fear your equipment---does he have concerns about your equipment. Because---if he does not---then there is less tendency on his part to make any errors in judgement---and if the bigger enemy does not make any errors in judgement---then indeed that is a much bigger problem to face during combat.

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## Path-Finder

any likelihood of this happening on PAF?


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## Imran Khan

Path-Finder said:


> any likelihood of this happening on PAF?


there is more cheap and easy way paf can do it themselves

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## Path-Finder

Imran Khan said:


> there is more cheap and easy way paf can do it themselves


This occupies a space which can be occupied by munition or electronic POD. This is not an ideal solution not to mention it is accident prone too.

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## Imran Khan

Path-Finder said:


> This occupies a space which can be occupied by munition or POD. This is not an ideal solution not to mention it is accident prone too.


but janab for this tech you need to beg from trump while we can modify tanks by ourselves


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## Path-Finder

Imran Khan said:


> but janab for this tech you need to beg from trump while we can modify tanks by ourselves


that modification is done by Turkey and it didn't need their permission either. Pakistan has been modding older F16's without yankee permission. Adding external fuel tanks to older F16 with this feature is the way forward.


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## Raider 21

Path-Finder said:


> any likelihood of this happening on PAF?


Will need UAE permission as that modification is done on their development team. PAF has CFTs but not a drogue refueling probe system.


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## GriffinsRule

Pakistan cant modify anything on the F-16 without US approval. Well besides the paint scheme. That goes for every F-16 operator

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## Dazzler

no fear..






ADF on ADA


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## omaromar

Free yourself!!

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## Trailer23

Dazzler said:


>


You can find a clip of this image on my Thread...:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-air-force-vids-edited-on-adobe-premiere.585383/

It is in the 5th Video... It was pouring on this baby. It also the most recent edit I did.

Currently, i'm working on my 6th video.

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## Trailer23

*Blast from the Past* - The Year: 2010, when we were receiving these beauties like hotcakes.

*First batch of three Block-52 F-16s delivered to Pakistan on June 26, 2010 were:*
1 x single-seater F-16C (aircraft serial# 10902)
2 x two-seater F-16D (aircraft serial# 10804 and 10805)

*Second batch of three Block-52 F-16s delivered to Pakistan on October 30, 2010 were:*
2 x single-seater F-16C (aircraft serial# 10905 and 10906)
1 x two-seater F-16D (aircraft serial# 10806)

*Third batch of six Block-52 F-16s delivered to Pakistan on November 20, 2010 were:*
5 x single-seater F-16C (aircraft serial# 10904, 10907, 10908, 10909 and 10910)
1 x two-seater F-16D (aircraft serial# 10803)

*Fourth batch of five Block-52 F-16s delivered to Pakistan on December 13, 2010 were:*
4 x single-seater F-16C (aircraft serial# 10901, 10903, 10911 and 10912)
1 x two-seater F-16D (aircraft serial# 10802)

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## Storm Force

The main THREAT to IAF is the F16 fleet.

BREAK the F16 = Air supremacy in indo pak theatre

AS long AS F16 keep flying you will keep the Rafales MKI Migs & Mirages AT BAY


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## The Accountant

Storm Force said:


> The main THREAT to IAF is the F16 fleet.
> 
> BREAK the F16 = Air supremacy in indo pak theatre
> 
> AS long AS F16 keep flying you will keep the Rafales MKI Migs & Mirages AT BAY


Rafael is superrior to f16


----------



## Kompromat

No silly, the real threat is that Pakistan can take out IAF's 35 odd Airbases within hours. IAF can take off but it wouldn't be able to land.




Storm Force said:


> The main THREAT to IAF is the F16 fleet.
> 
> BREAK the F16 = Air supremacy in indo pak theatre
> 
> AS long AS F16 keep flying you will keep the Rafales MKI Migs & Mirages AT BAY

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## Dazzler

Storm Force said:


> The main THREAT to IAF is the F16 fleet.
> 
> BREAK the F16 = Air supremacy in indo pak theatre
> 
> AS long AS F16 keep flying you will keep the Rafales MKI Migs & Mirages AT BAY



The dark horse is the jf-17. IAF has zilch knowledge on it while having plenty on the f-16 thanks to exercises with yankees and Singaporeans. That's where the surprise is and considering how it is winning hearts in the PAF, it is going to surprise many.


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## Wrath

Storm Force said:


> The main THREAT to IAF is the F16 fleet.
> 
> BREAK the F16 = Air supremacy in indo pak theatre
> 
> AS long AS F16 keep flying you will keep the Rafales MKI Migs & Mirages AT BAY


Now F-16 isn't the only threat . JF-17 Thunder is another threat now .


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## Wrath

The Accountant said:


> Rafael is superrior to f16


The pilot matters not the jet .


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## The Accountant

Fahad Bilal said:


> The pilot matters not the jet .


Lolz ... keep dreaming kid ...


----------



## Beethoven

Dazzler said:


> The dark horse is the jf-17. IAF has zilch knowledge on it while having plenty on the f-16 thanks to exercises with yankees and Singaporeans. That's where the surprise is and considering how it is winning hearts in the PAF, it is going to surprise many.


You and @Horus are making things difficult for me to comprehend...just the other day Horus was advocating the integration of AMRAAM and A-Darter on the JF 17 via VIXEN 1000E which means he is not satisfied with the performance of the Chinese AESA and SD 10 which brings me to you...you and @Windjammer advocate the use of Chinese products on the JF 17 and the evidence is the ovetaking of CAS duties of JF 17 from the F 16 on the eastern border....can you clear up the confusion please.....


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## Storm Force

Dazzler said:


> The dark horse is the jf-17. IAF has zilch knowledge on it while having plenty on the f-16 thanks to exercises with yankees and Singaporeans. That's where the surprise is and considering how it is winning hearts in the PAF, it is going to surprise many.



Only if the thunders get the improvement it needs and has been suggested
IE full Hms and hobs missile to give it chance in a wvr dogfight otherwise all the Iaf fighters have a huge advantage

Add the aesa radar so the current short coming of limited range and easy jamming is over come

Add the next generation of Chinease ew suitesxand better bvr missles.

Improved more efficient engine giving less smoke then the current Russian engines


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## Wrath

The Accountant said:


> Lolz ... keep dreaming kid ...


Who dreams of surgical strikes Sonny


----------



## Windjammer

Beethoven said:


> You and @Horus are making things difficult for me to comprehend...just the other day Horus was advocating the integration of AMRAAM and A-Darter on the JF 17 via VIXEN 1000E which means he is not satisfied with the performance of the Chinese AESA and SD 10 which brings me to you...you and @Windjammer advocate the use of Chinese products on the JF 17 and the evidence is the ovetaking of CAS duties of JF 17 from the F 16 on the eastern border....can you clear up the confusion please.....



This from the very top.

*''Since they are specific to each aircraft and cannot be interchanged, both are serving us well. Both have very similar capabilities. So as long as the F-16 and JF-17 are up in the air, Modi better watch out.''*

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## Wrath

The Accountant said:


> Lolz ... keep dreaming kid ...


Why your air Force never comes in Pakistan . Your officials always talk about air strikes . But none are carried out still yet


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## Dazzler

Storm Force said:


> Only if the thunders get the improvement it needs and has been suggested
> IE full Hms and hobs missile to give it chance in a wvr dogfight otherwise all the Iaf fighters have a huge advantage
> 
> Add the aesa radar so the current short coming of limited range and easy jamming is over come
> 
> Add the next generation of Chinease ew suitesxand better bvr missles.
> 
> Improved more efficient engine giving less smoke then the current Russian engines



Theyll be engaged at extended ranges, no chance of a dog fight. AESA and SD-10A will handle your IAF neatly.



Beethoven said:


> You and @Horus are making things difficult for me to comprehend...just the other day Horus was advocating the integration of AMRAAM and A-Darter on the JF 17 via VIXEN 1000E which means he is not satisfied with the performance of the Chinese AESA and SD 10 which brings me to you...you and @Windjammer advocate the use of Chinese products on the JF 17 and the evidence is the ovetaking of CAS duties of JF 17 from the F 16 on the eastern border....can you clear up the confusion please.....



Those options are for export customers who like to have western goodies. The performance of jf-17 has been a point of satisfaction in PAF's top brass but they always prefer to keep options open. Though that route is unlikely in my opinion.

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## Beethoven

Thank you @Dazzler and @Windjammer for your timely response....just another question if you guys dont mind....instead of JF 17 why dont we upgrade our F 16's with VIXEN and integrate A Darter with it because they have JHMCS to utilize it fully


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## punit

Storm Force said:


> The main THREAT to IAF is the F16 fleet.
> 
> BREAK the F16 = Air supremacy in indo pak theatre
> 
> AS long AS F16 keep flying you will keep the Rafales MKI Migs & Mirages AT BAY


How many Block 52 F 16 pakistan have ?



Fahad Bilal said:


> The pilot matters not the jet .


Pilot will fly in air ?


----------



## Windjammer

punit said:


> How many Block 52 F 16 pakistan have ?



All PAF F-16s have been upgraded close to Block-52 standards.

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## punit

Windjammer said:


> All PAF F-16s have been upgraded close to Block-52 standards.


The old A/ B ones ? They got MLU right ? Or 52+ update ?


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## Storm Force

punit said:


> The old A/ B ones ? They got MLU right ? Or 52+ update ?




The block a and b f16 mid life upgrade programme does not bring these legacy forty year old fighters to same standards as the block 52.

Even after upgrades the block 52.still has a newer engine . And far superior radar. And bigger choice of stand off weapons 

This is the reason why most block a and block b falcons are being scrapped across the world IE Jordan Israel Holland Norway Denmark etc.

Yes you upgrade then but the airframe engine are the same bar minor work .
The big addition is bvr capability and slight improvement in apg63 radar to version three from version one .

Regardless of this I rate the f16 mlu and block 52.as the biggest hurdle for Indian air force to overcome 

The f16 has S fifty fifty or better chance against any mki mig29 or mirage 2000.

That ratio drops. To 40/60.when you consider thunders because USA radars and amraam are better than Chinese klj radar and SD bvr.

Rafale arrival next year is total dominance period

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## Imran Khan

punit said:


> The old A/ B ones ? They got MLU right ? Or 52+ update ?


they got so much more . MLU + star upgrade 

*tem 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits – $1.3 billion*





JHMCS

According to the US DSCA, Pakistan intends to purchase the Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) Program equipment “to enhance survivability, communications connectivity, and extend the useful life of its F-16A/B fighter aircraft. The modifications and upgrades in this proposed sale will permit Pakistan’s F-16A/B squadron to operate safely, and enhance Pakistan’s conventional deterrent capability. Pakistan’s air fleet can readily use these updates to enhance and extend the life of its aircraft.” The total value, if all options are exercised, is estimated as high as $1.3 billion, and subsequent Pentagon releases peg it at that figure.

The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B MLU and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:


APG-68v9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar, which is a much smaller improvement on earlier F-16s. The APG-68 with SAR is far better at air to ground work, and can be used to monitor ground activity.

Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)

AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems

AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems

Have Quick I/II Radios

Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT)

SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability

Reconnaissance pod capability

Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (used for training exercises)

MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits

21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;

60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;

1 Unit Level Trainer; and

10 APG-68v9 spare radar sets.

Radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support.
The principal contractors will be:


BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY

Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX

Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX

Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX

Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD
Turkish Aerospace Industries isn’t mentioned here, but they ended up with a contract to perform the upgrades on 36 F-16A/B aircraft. They’ve been doing similar work for Turkey, and for other F-16 customers in the Middle East.

There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives. See DSCA release .

InsideDefense.com makes the interesting observation that Pakistan doesn’t have 60 F-16s to upgrade . The clear implication is that the Pakistani government is interested in buying used F-16s and upgrading them, which proved to be the case. As part of the deal for new planes, in Sept 30/06 the USA also agreed to deliver 26 of the “Peace Gate III/IV” F-16A/B Block 15OCUs that had been ordered in 1988-1989, then embargoed when Pakistan tested nuclear weapons. After the embargo, the planes had been diverted for use as aggressor combat training aircraft by USAF and the US Navy.


*Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR – $151 Million*




F100 Engine Test
The third contract involves Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million.

More specifically, the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of:


14 F100-PW-220E engines 

14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits

De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft

Support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program.
The principal contractors will be:


Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX

United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT.
There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale, but implementation of the engine modifications and UP/STAR repairs will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF].

upgraded pakistani f-16 carrying
sniper pod
amraams
GBU

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## Trailer23

Imran Khan said:


> they got so much more . MLU + star upgrade
> 
> *tem 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits – $1.3 billion*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JHMCS
> 
> According to the US DSCA, Pakistan intends to purchase the Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) Program equipment “to enhance survivability, communications connectivity, and extend the useful life of its F-16A/B fighter aircraft. The modifications and upgrades in this proposed sale will permit Pakistan’s F-16A/B squadron to operate safely, and enhance Pakistan’s conventional deterrent capability. Pakistan’s air fleet can readily use these updates to enhance and extend the life of its aircraft.” The total value, if all options are exercised, is estimated as high as $1.3 billion, and subsequent Pentagon releases peg it at that figure.
> 
> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B MLU and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:





Imran Khan said:


> APG-68v9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar, which is a much smaller improvement on earlier F-16s. The APG-68 with SAR is far better at air to ground work, and can be used to monitor ground activity.​
> Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)​
> AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems​
> AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems​
> Have Quick I/II Radios​
> Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT)​
> SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability​
> Reconnaissance pod capability​
> Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (used for training exercises)​
> MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits​
> 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;​
> 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;​
> 1 Unit Level Trainer; and​
> 10 APG-68v9 spare radar sets.​
> Radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support.​
> The principal contractors will be:​
> BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY​
> Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX​
> Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX​
> Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX​
> Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD​
> Turkish Aerospace Industries isn’t mentioned here, but they ended up with a contract to perform the upgrades on 36 F-16A/B aircraft. They’ve been doing similar work for Turkey, and for other F-16 customers in the Middle East.
> 
> There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives. See DSCA release .
> 
> InsideDefense.com makes the interesting observation that Pakistan doesn’t have 60 F-16s to upgrade . The clear implication is that the Pakistani government is interested in buying used F-16s and upgrading them, which proved to be the case. As part of the deal for new planes, in Sept 30/06 the USA also agreed to deliver 26 of the “Peace Gate III/IV” F-16A/B Block 15OCUs that had been ordered in 1988-1989, then embargoed when Pakistan tested nuclear weapons. After the embargo, the planes had been diverted for use as aggressor combat training aircraft by USAF and the US Navy.
> 
> 
> *Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR – $151 Million*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F100 Engine Test
> The third contract involves Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million.
> 
> More specifically, the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of:​
> 14 F100-PW-220E engines ​
> 14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits​
> De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft​
> Support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program.​
> The principal contractors will be:​
> Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX​
> United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT.​
> There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale, but implementation of the engine modifications and UP/STAR repairs will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF].
> 
> upgraded pakistani f-16 carrying
> sniper pod
> amraams
> GBU








*BOOM*​


----------



## The Accountant

Fahad Bilal said:


> Why your air Force never comes in Pakistan . Your officials always talk about air strikes . But none are carried out still yet


Kid I am a Pakistani but patriotisim does not mean that I favor to send my highly skilled pilots in the death zone due to lack of proper equipment

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## TOPGUN

Imran Khan said:


> they got so much more . MLU + star upgrade
> 
> *tem 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits – $1.3 billion*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JHMCS
> 
> According to the US DSCA, Pakistan intends to purchase the Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) Program equipment “to enhance survivability, communications connectivity, and extend the useful life of its F-16A/B fighter aircraft. The modifications and upgrades in this proposed sale will permit Pakistan’s F-16A/B squadron to operate safely, and enhance Pakistan’s conventional deterrent capability. Pakistan’s air fleet can readily use these updates to enhance and extend the life of its aircraft.” The total value, if all options are exercised, is estimated as high as $1.3 billion, and subsequent Pentagon releases peg it at that figure.
> 
> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B MLU and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:
> 
> 
> APG-68v9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar, which is a much smaller improvement on earlier F-16s. The APG-68 with SAR is far better at air to ground work, and can be used to monitor ground activity.
> 
> Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
> 
> AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
> 
> AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems
> 
> Have Quick I/II Radios
> 
> Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT)
> 
> SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability
> 
> Reconnaissance pod capability
> 
> Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (used for training exercises)
> 
> MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
> 
> 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
> 
> 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
> 
> 1 Unit Level Trainer; and
> 
> 10 APG-68v9 spare radar sets.
> 
> Radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support.
> The principal contractors will be:
> 
> 
> BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY
> 
> Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX
> 
> Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX
> 
> Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX
> 
> Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD
> Turkish Aerospace Industries isn’t mentioned here, but they ended up with a contract to perform the upgrades on 36 F-16A/B aircraft. They’ve been doing similar work for Turkey, and for other F-16 customers in the Middle East.
> 
> There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives. See DSCA release .
> 
> InsideDefense.com makes the interesting observation that Pakistan doesn’t have 60 F-16s to upgrade . The clear implication is that the Pakistani government is interested in buying used F-16s and upgrading them, which proved to be the case. As part of the deal for new planes, in Sept 30/06 the USA also agreed to deliver 26 of the “Peace Gate III/IV” F-16A/B Block 15OCUs that had been ordered in 1988-1989, then embargoed when Pakistan tested nuclear weapons. After the embargo, the planes had been diverted for use as aggressor combat training aircraft by USAF and the US Navy.
> 
> 
> *Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR – $151 Million*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F100 Engine Test
> The third contract involves Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million.
> 
> More specifically, the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of:
> 
> 
> 14 F100-PW-220E engines
> 
> 14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits
> 
> De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft
> 
> Support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program.
> The principal contractors will be:
> 
> 
> Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX
> 
> United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT.
> There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale, but implementation of the engine modifications and UP/STAR repairs will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF].
> 
> upgraded pakistani f-16 carrying
> sniper pod
> amraams
> GBU




Does PAF have Harpoon missiles for the vipers ? never seen one armed with one.


----------



## punit

Imran Khan said:


> they got so much more . MLU + star upgrade
> 
> *tem 3: F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification Kits – $1.3 billion*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JHMCS
> 
> According to the US DSCA, Pakistan intends to purchase the Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) Program equipment “to enhance survivability, communications connectivity, and extend the useful life of its F-16A/B fighter aircraft. The modifications and upgrades in this proposed sale will permit Pakistan’s F-16A/B squadron to operate safely, and enhance Pakistan’s conventional deterrent capability. Pakistan’s air fleet can readily use these updates to enhance and extend the life of its aircraft.” The total value, if all options are exercised, is estimated as high as $1.3 billion, and subsequent Pentagon releases peg it at that figure.
> 
> The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 60 F-16A/B MLU and Falcon Star Structural Service Life Enhancement kits consisting of:
> 
> 
> APG-68v9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar, which is a much smaller improvement on earlier F-16s. The APG-68 with SAR is far better at air to ground work, and can be used to monitor ground activity.
> 
> Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
> 
> AN/APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
> 
> AN/ALE-47 Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems
> 
> Have Quick I/II Radios
> 
> Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals (MIDS-LVT)
> 
> SNIPER (formerly known as AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA) targeting pod capability
> 
> Reconnaissance pod capability
> 
> Advanced Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation Units (used for training exercises)
> 
> MDE included in the MLU modification and structural upgrade kits
> 
> 21 ALQ-131 Block II Electronic Countermeasures Pods without the Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM); or ALQ-184 Electronic Countermeasures Pods without DRFM;
> 
> 60 ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems;
> 
> 1 Unit Level Trainer; and
> 
> 10 APG-68v9 spare radar sets.
> 
> Radars, modems, receivers, installation, avionics, spare and repair parts, support equipment, CONUS-personnel training and training equipment, technical assistance, publications and technical documentation, system drawings, U.S. Government and contractor engineering, and other related logistics elements necessary for full program support.
> The principal contractors will be:
> 
> 
> BAE Advanced Systems in Greenlawn, NY
> 
> Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX
> 
> Lockheed Martin Missile and Fire Control in Dallas, TX
> 
> Northrop-Grumman Electro-Optical Systems in Garland, TX
> 
> Northrop-Grumman Electronic Systems in Baltimore, MD
> Turkish Aerospace Industries isn’t mentioned here, but they ended up with a contract to perform the upgrades on 36 F-16A/B aircraft. They’ve been doing similar work for Turkey, and for other F-16 customers in the Middle East.
> 
> There are no known offset agreements in connection with this proposed sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives. See DSCA release .
> 
> InsideDefense.com makes the interesting observation that Pakistan doesn’t have 60 F-16s to upgrade . The clear implication is that the Pakistani government is interested in buying used F-16s and upgrading them, which proved to be the case. As part of the deal for new planes, in Sept 30/06 the USA also agreed to deliver 26 of the “Peace Gate III/IV” F-16A/B Block 15OCUs that had been ordered in 1988-1989, then embargoed when Pakistan tested nuclear weapons. After the embargo, the planes had been diverted for use as aggressor combat training aircraft by USAF and the US Navy.
> 
> 
> *Item 4: F-16A/B Engine Modifications & UP/STAR – $151 Million*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F100 Engine Test
> The third contract involves Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $151 million.
> 
> More specifically, the Government of Pakistan has requested engine improvements and structural modifications to its F-16 fleet, which includes a possible sale of:
> 
> 
> 14 F100-PW-220E engines
> 
> 14 Falcon UP/STAR F-16 structural upgrade kits
> 
> De-modification and preparation of 26 aircraft
> 
> Support equipment, software development/integration, modification kits, spares and repair parts, flight test instrumentation, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics personnel services, and other related requirements to support the program.
> The principal contractors will be:
> 
> 
> Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Company in Fort Worth, TX
> 
> United Technology Company subsidiary Pratt & Whitney in East Hartford, CT.
> There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale, but implementation of the engine modifications and UP/STAR repairs will require multiple trips to Pakistan involving U.S. Government and contractor representatives for technical review/support, program management, and modification of the aircraft. See DSCA release [PDF].
> 
> upgraded pakistani f-16 carrying
> sniper pod
> amraams
> GBU


Imran bhai rocks.!! ☺️


----------



## Imran Khan

TOPGUN said:


> Does PAF have Harpoon missiles for the vipers ? never seen one armed with one.


there is no such image on internet sir .at least i did not recall it

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## Wrath

punit said:


> How many Block 52 F 16 pakistan have ?
> 
> 
> Pilot will fly in air ?


Nice sense of sarcasm dear . But plane is controlled by a pilot .


----------



## Wrath

The Accountant said:


> Kid I am a Pakistani but patriotisim does not mean that I favor to send my highly skilled pilots in the death zone due to lack of proper equipment


Bro . I am talking about indians when in a few years back they came into Pakistan but were then thrown out by F-16 . So .


----------



## punit

Fahad Bilal said:


> Nice sense of sarcasm dear . But plane is controlled by a pilot .


So it's ths might of plane + skills of pilot . Right ?


----------



## JohnWick

punit said:


> So it's ths might of plane + skills of pilot . Right ?


actually sir major factor is the plane.


----------



## The Accountant

Fahad Bilal said:


> Bro . I am talking about indians when in a few years back they came into Pakistan but were then thrown out by F-16 . So .


But rafael were not there at that time



TOPGUN said:


> Does PAF have Harpoon missiles for the vipers ? never seen one armed with one.


No our f16s are not allowed to carry harpoons

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## messiach

Sure, as you say.


Storm Force said:


> The main THREAT to IAF is the F16 fleet.
> 
> BREAK the F16 = Air supremacy in indo pak theatre
> 
> AS long AS F16 keep flying you will keep the Rafales MKI Migs & Mirages AT BAY


----------



## Thorough Pro

Pilots ko rikshay pay bitha dein?



Fahad Bilal said:


> The pilot matters not the jet .



Why do Thunders need to get in to a WVR fight when they carry very potent BVR's?



Storm Force said:


> Only if the thunders get the improvement it needs and has been suggested
> IE full Hms and hobs missile to give it chance in a wvr dogfight otherwise all the Iaf fighters have a huge advantage
> 
> Add the aesa radar so the current short coming of limited range and easy jamming is over come
> 
> Add the next generation of Chinease ew suitesxand better bvr missles.
> 
> Improved more efficient engine giving less smoke then the current Russian engines

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## Awan68

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The 2nd world war was won on the western front by the air force---smashed the german industrial complex---.
> 
> I knew a german family that lived thru that bombing---Dresden was just an example---the USAF was dominating the skies and would have obliterated any or all german cities---.
> 
> How about the 1st gulf war---.
> 
> More advanced a nation is---the more it depends on its industrial complex bigger and massive the destruction would be---.
> 
> The sooner they would lay their arms down---.
> 
> Now if you compare it to Afghanistan---that is a different story---.


It was the red army that broke the back of the wehrmacht at stalingrad. The russians entered berlin first, not the yanks.

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## Army research

Awan68 said:


> It was the red army that broke the back of the wehrmacht at stalingrad. The russians entered berlin first, not the yanks.


The whermacht lost at when the Russians brought in reinforcements from fresh Siberian troops and stopped them at the gates of the kremlin, 
This fact is supported by the chief of army group centre saying it himself he knew he lost the war after failing to take Moscow during the Nuremburg trials

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## hassan1



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## Raider 21

hassan1 said:


> View attachment 521208


85728 still going strong. Posted this before, but here is 85728 back in the 1990s.


----------



## Windjammer

*
PAF Vipers on Night Patrol. 
*




VC

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## Wrath

Thorough Pro said:


> Pilots ko rikshay pay bitha dein?
> 
> 
> 
> Why do Thunders need to get in to a WVR fight when they carry very potent BVR's?


@Thorough pro . A sensible person tries to understand the point given , not try to put his ugly sense of humour in it . Shows your way of perception .


----------



## Thorough Pro

LOL... A sensible person does not spew stupidity. If everything depended on Pilots no one would go for newer planes. Michael Schumacher was the best formula one racer, but he never drove a 2nd grade car. A winning combination always consists of the best man with the best machine. Period. 




Fahad Bilal said:


> @Thorough pro . A sensible person tries to understand the point given , not try to put his ugly sense of humour in it . Shows your way of perception .


----------



## Arsalan

@MastanKhan @Cookie Monster excellent analysis and posts on why Germans lost WW II. 

Really impressed with detailed analysis from Cookie Monster. 


BUT, LETS STAY ON TOPIC PLEASE. 
I think there will be a general aviation thread where we can move this discussion (Do tag me if you decide to do it)

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## Maxpane



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## Khaqan Humayun

*How will Pakistan fulfill the need of more new F-16?*



This is the big question of this time…..

Anybody from PAF must give the right answer with real Data and kindly show the status of new Possible Fighter jets for Pakistan.

India will make F-16 and Tejas, and will buy Rafale, Pakfaw is the joint product of Russia and India.

See the number of Jets and Brands with latest Avionic.

*Be a realistic and show us the current position of our PAF.*

And plz don’t tell us about JF-17 *we all know and this is the pride of Pakistan*, This was one step now go forward bring some more new names and brands for PAF.

If PAF is making any other Fighter Jet so plz show us.


----------



## Amigator

@waz @Oscar @denel plz close the thread. So much discussion on this topic has already done in different threads of Pakistan Airforce section

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## Silicon0000

Another wish list thread.


----------



## Khaqan Humayun

Amigator said:


> @waz @Oscar @denel plz close the thread. So much discussion on this topic has already done in different threads of Pakistan Airforce section


Dear some other will share their knowledge. If you are tired so other will take part in this discussion.


----------



## Hayreddin

F16 is not priority anymore . 
India not gonna make F16 . Inducting only 36 rafael , wont make any huge difference in war scenerio , also would be completely operational in 2021/22. 
Project azm 5th gen is in pipline with possible future options of j10C/D , improved version of J31 , J20 . Or if situation is favorable thn may be su35 .

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## Khaqan Humayun

Be positive I asked if someone from PAF has well knowledge he/she must share their knowledge

Because 2019 will show IAF (india) as a big enemy with great superiority of Multi fighter jets.



Hayreddin said:


> F16 is not priority anymore .
> India not gonna make F16 . Inducting only 36 rafael , wont make any huge difference in war scenerio , also would be completely operational in 2021/22.
> Project azm 5th gen is in pipline with possible future options of j10C/D , improved version of J31 , J20 . Or if situation is favorable thn may be su35 .



Why not we start work on Eurasian technology like we make Jets with China and Russia and add Turkey as well and get engine from Rolls Royse U.K.

Turkey can help us to build a new Fighter jet, Pakistan and Turkey can make an excellent move in jets race. 
SU-35 can be a good choice for PAF.


----------



## Surya 1

Khaqan Humayun said:


> *How will Pakistan fulfill the need of more new F-16?*
> 
> 
> 
> This is the big question of this time…..
> 
> Anybody from PAF must give the right answer with real Data and kindly show the status of new Possible Fighter jets for Pakistan.
> 
> India will make F-16 and Tejas, and will buy Rafale, Pakfaw is the joint product of Russia and India.
> 
> See the number of Jets and Brands with latest Avionic.
> 
> *Be a realistic and show us the current position of our PAF.*
> 
> And plz don’t tell us about JF-17 *we all know and this is the pride of Pakistan*, This was one step now go forward bring some more new names and brands for PAF.
> 
> If PAF is making any other Fighter Jet so plz show us.



There is only one way. Buy it from US.


----------



## Path-Finder

there is a dedicated thread for discussion so please look in their its been repeatedly answered. @waz @Arsalan @Dubious


----------



## Khaqan Humayun

Path-Finder said:


> there is a dedicated thread for discussion so please look in their its been repeatedly answered. @waz @Arsalan @Dubious



Dear some other will share their knowledge. If you are tired so other will take part in this discussion.


----------



## Path-Finder

Khaqan Humayun said:


> Dear some other will share their knowledge. If you are tired so other will take part in this discussion.


Dear here is all the discussion you need. 

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-f-16-discussions-2.15226/


----------



## Khaqan Humayun

Surya 1 said:


> There is only one way. Buy it from US.



We can buy it from Jorden and other friends

Question is how long we will depend on F-16?

India has singed many contract to fill the gap of IAF in the middle of 2019. 

Slow action of PAF will give IAF chance to build hi-pressure


----------



## Maxpane



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## Khan Kore

ejaz007 said:


> US Senate urged to help upgrade Pakistans F-16s


The money we put to up grad these antiques should be channelize towards an indigenous capabilities.


----------



## MIRauf

Izhar, it depends on the Upgrade, Not sure if the original 40 Block-15 can be MLUe'd any further, but rest probably can. The F-16V or better upgrade would make these antiques ( as you called them ) a force to be reckon with, Block-70 type upgrade would have JohnWick dancing on cloud 9 with joy. Your F-16 proficient pilots will have even more deadlier machine with fraction of cost when you look at the overall costs of inducting, training, setting up new infrastructure.


----------



## denel

Khaqan Humayun said:


> Be positive I asked if someone from PAF has well knowledge he/she must share their knowledge
> 
> Because 2019 will show IAF (india) as a big enemy with great superiority of Multi fighter jets.
> 
> 
> 
> Why not we start work on Eurasian technology like we make Jets with China and Russia and add Turkey as well and get engine from Rolls Royse U.K.
> 
> Turkey can help us to build a new Fighter jet, Pakistan and Turkey can make an excellent move in jets race.
> SU-35 can be a good choice for PAF.



Friend, Turkey also is on a learning curve on building; it is not something they can do right away.


----------



## Maxpane



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## MastanKhan

Khaqan Humayun said:


> Be positive I asked if someone from PAF has well knowledge he/she must share their knowledge
> 
> Because 2019 will show IAF (india) as a big enemy with great superiority of Multi fighter jets.
> 
> 
> 
> Why not we start work on Eurasian technology like we make Jets with China and Russia and add Turkey as well and get engine from Rolls Royse U.K.
> 
> Turkey can help us to build a new Fighter jet, Pakistan and Turkey can make an excellent move in jets race.
> SU-35 can be a good choice for PAF.



Hi,

WTF---where did turkey get the magic bullet from---.

Pakistan is way ahead of Turkey in fighter aircraft manufacture---. We have over a 100 inducted aircraft to prove that---.

Our alliance with china is far advanced---why do we need to step back to join hands with Turkey on a project that is far back---.

Why waste time with Turkey and invest our money---when china is way ahead and spending its money on the project---.

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## ARMalik

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> WTF---where did turkey get the magic bullet from---.
> 
> Pakistan is way ahead of Turkey in fighter aircraft manufacture---. We have over a 100 inducted aircraft to prove that---.
> 
> Our alliance with china is far advanced---why do we need to step back to join hands with Turkey on a project that is far back---.
> 
> Why waste time with Turkey and invest our money---when china is way ahead and spending its money on the project---.



Second this.....there is absolutely no need to waste time with Turkey except for some sub-systems perhaps. I think some keep raising this due to ignorance.

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## CriticalThought

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> WTF---where did turkey get the magic bullet from---.
> 
> Pakistan is way ahead of Turkey in fighter aircraft manufacture---. We have over a 100 inducted aircraft to prove that---.
> 
> Our alliance with china is far advanced---why do we need to step back to join hands with Turkey on a project that is far back---.
> 
> Why waste time with Turkey and invest our money---when china is way ahead and spending its money on the project---.



Because Turkey brings different manufacturing techniques and design experience from which we can benefit. They are responsible for manufacturing some of the systems for F-35 and partnering with them will give us access to some of this expertise. There is no problem with broadening our base of knowledge and exposure to techniques from around the world.

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## dBSPL

Past Pakistani governments has done a wonderful job under all the challenges, with jf-17. But could you fly this plane without Chinese support? On the other hand, how realistic is it to make Pakistani aviation entirely within the Chinese infrastructure in the future ?

If we talk about current fighter ; Forgive my ignorance bu what belong completly to Pakistan such as mainframe design, CAD and CAE, testing, analysis and verification, material engineering?

Im just ask, What rate of Pak avionics in the JF-17 project ? Who prepared the core architecture... Who wrote the FBW, who designed the mission computer ... Who gave the radar? Where is the origin of decision support systems and softwares, well who is provider such as HMD in near future? Where was the design of ECM and DAS subsytems ? Where were its electro-optical productions made? Where did the targeting systems come from?

What about Propulsion and fuel system? And weaponary?

The point here is not Turkey's direct participation in the Pakistan projects. The issue is that Pakistan creates resource diversity. This will be German-Pak colobration , or would be Russia, or Iran, does not matter. all just about details and gains.

It may not seen as a problem for you to want to make all your aviation capacity connected to a single state with all its strategic areas. However, I personally think that this will have long-term effects from Pakistan's national interests to reelpolitics.

***

You can see Turkey's capacity is small, no problem. Turkey's current backlog and the reasons why didnt need main-body designs until 2009-2010 , not the subject of this title. In short, I want to say that what Turkey made mistake in the past, its same with prevailing opinion here.

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## MastanKhan

dBSPL said:


> Past Pakistani governments has done a wonderful job under all the challenges, with jf-17. But could you fly this plane without Chinese support? On the other hand, how realistic is it to make Pakistani aviation entirely within the Chinese infrastructure in the future ?
> 
> If we talk about current fighter ; Forgive my ignorance bu what belong completly to Pakistan such as mainframe design, CAD and CAE, testing, analysis and verification, material engineering?
> 
> Im just ask, What rate of Pak avionics in the JF-17 project ? Who prepared the core architecture... Who wrote the FBW, who designed the mission computer ... Who gave the radar? Where is the origin of decision support systems and softwares, well who is provider such as HMD in near future? Where was the design of ECM and DAS subsytems ? Where were its electro-optical productions made? Where did the targeting systems come from?
> 
> What about Propulsion and fuel system? And weaponary?
> 
> The point here is not Turkey's direct participation in the Pakistan projects. The issue is that Pakistan creates resource diversity. This will be German-Pak colobration , or would be Russia, or Iran, does not matter. all just about details and gains.
> 
> It may not seen as a problem for you to want to make all your aviation capacity connected to a single state with all its strategic areas. However, I personally think that this will have long-term effects from Pakistan's national interests to reelpolitics.
> 
> ***
> 
> You can see Turkey's capacity is small, no problem. Turkey's current backlog and the reasons why didnt need main-body designs until 2009-2010 , not the subject of this title. In short, I want to say that what Turkey made mistake in the past, its same with prevailing opinion here.



Hi,

Pakistan is a small and a poor nation---. It is also somewhat a 'pariah' nation---it is not about Turkey's small capacity persay---but the issues the presence of pakistan will have with projects where pakistan is fully involved---.

Pakistan's best bet is still with the chinese---. The learning opportunity is better with the chinese in aircraft manufacture and engine---because the chinese want to counter the US military power house---. It is going to spend as much money as it needs to along with the manpower---.

I believe that pakistan should stay focused on the JF17---it is a massive project for pakistan---. Even though it looks average at this time---but the future of the JF17 all depends on the total commitment in the JF17 BLK3 production.

Pak military does not have all what you say about the design---but the pak military firmly believes in the 3M motto---' we did not make it---but we made it better '---.

The success of pak military programs is that they understand and stay within their limits of what they know and how best to utilize their assets---.

Pak military has no egos involved---they never claim to knowitall---they don't want to---they just want to build it so that they can fight their war and come out ahead of the opponent---.

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## AFlover

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> WTF---where did turkey get the magic bullet from---.
> 
> Pakistan is way ahead of Turkey in fighter aircraft manufacture---. We have over a 100 inducted aircraft to prove that---.
> 
> Our alliance with china is far advanced---why do we need to step back to join hands with Turkey on a project that is far back---.
> 
> Why waste time with Turkey and invest our money---when china is way ahead and spending its money on the project---.


Dear Mastan Sahib 
There is no doubt that Chinese aviation industrial knowledge,R&D and involvement in JF17 project really has no match and Pakistan gained a lot and learnt a lot you are right but I think to avoid an over reliance on a single country for airforce made PAF to see other options where they see turkey as another close partner who will share and can be trusted for their know how (especially since they are in partnership with BAE for their TFX) be it little. 
PAF has already experienced their dependencies and limitation on US for their front line fighter.

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## HRK

MastanKhan said:


> Why waste time with Turkey and invest our money


because of "Diversification" of partners and allies in defence industries

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## CriticalThought

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pakistan is a small and a poor nation---. It is also somewhat a 'pariah' nation---it is not about Turkey's small capacity persay---but the issues the presence of pakistan will have with projects where pakistan is fully involved---.
> 
> Pakistan's best bet is still with the chinese---. The learning opportunity is better with the chinese in aircraft manufacture and engine---because the chinese want to counter the US military power house---. It is going to spend as much money as it needs to along with the manpower---.
> 
> I believe that pakistan should stay focused on the JF17---it is a massive project for pakistan---. Even though it looks average at this time---but the future of the JF17 all depends on the total commitment in the JF17 BLK3 production.
> 
> Pak military does not have all what you say about the design---but the pak military firmly believes in the 3M motto---' we did not make it---but we made it better '---.
> 
> The success of pak military programs is that they understand and stay within their limits of what they know and how best to utilize their assets---.
> 
> Pak military has no egos involved---they never claim to knowitall---they don't want to---they just want to build it so that they can fight their war and come out ahead of the opponent---.



Your thoughts are correct for JF-17. But we need to move towards indigenization for more reasons than mere security. Throughout the world, military applications have been the forefront of innovation from which technologies have trickled down to other sectors. Today, PAC is helping commercial companies with circuit design. Same is true for HIT in its respective fields. So increased military indigenization will Insha Allah lead to ripple effects in rest of the economy.

May Allah Guide us towards the right path. The path of those upon whom He Showered His Favor. Not of those who have evoked His Anger or of those who are astray. Aameen.

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## MastanKhan

HRK said:


> because of "Diversification" of partners and allies in defence industries



Hi,

The success of pak military over the years has been due to the reason that it has stayed within its limits and boundaries due to a limited budget---.

That has kept the eyes focused on the ball and the project moves along successfully---.

The Turks can be allied for the EW package---.



AFlover said:


> Dear Mastan Sahib
> There is no doubt that Chinese aviation industrial knowledge,R&D and involvement in JF17 project really has no match and Pakistan gained a lot and learnt a lot you are right but I think to avoid an over reliance on a single country for airforce made PAF to see other options where they see turkey as another close partner who will share and can be trusted for their know how (especially since they are in partnership with BAE for their TFX) be it little.
> PAF has already experienced their dependencies and limitation on US for their front line fighter.



Hi,

The american engine issue just popped up for the helicopter---.

paf has not reached a threshold that from where it can start to spread its resource around for JV---. Once it does that---then turkey is fine for an aircraft venture---.

But when you already have a partner who is spending the all the money it can for the project---why find someone to spend your money---.

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## HRK

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The success of pak military over the years has been due to the reason that it has stayed within its limits and boundaries due to a limited budget---.
> 
> That has kept the eyes focused on the ball and the project moves along successfully---.
> 
> The Turks can be allied for the EW package---.


no one is asking to break the bank but to diversify the supplier ..... with in budget for a certain programme or programmes, the involvement could be related to subsystems or even to soft systems related to engineering programme ..... but THE END PRODUCT, THE SOLUTION, THE SYSTEM OF SYSTEMS should belong to us, it must be OUR PRODUCT ..... a step above JV

And for this China and Turkey are the only two countries we could have such collaboration


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## denel

HRK said:


> no one is asking to break the bank but to diversify the supplier ..... with in budget for a certain programme or programmes, the involvement could be related to subsystems or even to soft systems related to engineering programme ..... but THE END PRODUCT, THE SOLUTION, THE SYSTEM OF SYSTEMS should belong to us, it must be OUR PRODUCT ..... a step above JV
> 
> And for this China and Turkey are the only two countries we could have such collaboration


Yes diversification but you are not seeing the challenge of integration of systems/sub-systems between 2 opposing parties.

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## Nasr

I see the point about _"diversifying" _where Pakistan Air Force sources for F-16 parts. Considering now that Pakistan Air Force Has 70+ F-16s, and the fact these aircraft here to remain in Pakistan Air Force for the next 20--25 years. It would be wise to secure multiple sources for spare parts for F-16s. We wouldn't want to go through another _"Mirage"_ venture now would we? So yes, having multiple sources for spare parts for F-16s. Which are reliable and which can supply in quality and quantity. All I would like to Pakistan Air Force do is stockpile on parts, securely, catalogued and most important of all parts, engines. Because you know what they say in the aviation industry, engine is the heart of the aircraft. Without it, the aircraft is a lifeless husk.

Now having supported HRK's argument, I would also like to add is that any procurement of aircraft (any) hinders with the Thunder program, should be shelved or put on hold. Thunder program is top priority for Pakistan Air Force.


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## HRK

denel said:


> integration of systems/sub-systems between 2 opposing parties.


Two things
- We currently lack quality products and manufacturing technologies
- And we lack in R&D

so our current possible avenue for success in engineering sector(specially related to defence) is Integration we can not shy away from this just because of difficulties, we have to address our NEEDS (actually *necessities*) in TIMELY and AFFORDABLE manners within _*existing resources*_.

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## denel

HRK said:


> Two things
> - We currently lack quality products and manufacturing technologies
> - And we lack in R&D
> 
> so our current possible avenue for success in engineering sector(specially related to defence) is Integration we can not shy away from this just because of difficulties, we have to address our NEEDS (actually *necessities*) in TIMELY and AFFORDABLE manners within _*existing resources*_.


Yes agreed, as I pointed out before this needs to be nurtured as part of R&D mindset within universities. As good casing point as we have CPUT/Stellenbosch with cubesat/nanosat development - latest one went into orbit 2 days ago. CPUT is a very small campus but they have gotten their engineering programs geared towards this work.


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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> Yes diversification but you are not seeing the challenge of integration of systems/sub-systems between 2 opposing parties.



Hi,

@denel --- you talk about 'integration' and they have no understanding of what is at stake---.

The problem over here is---that they have learnt nothing about 'integration' from the experience of the JF17---.

Paf used to claim that the aircraft would be ready and going in a couple of years---. It is close to 14 years and still integration problems are lingering---.

Young pakistanis are still living in the six shooter / quick draw mode---the stories that they had heard from their elders---you see---you position---you shoot---.

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> @denel --- you talk about 'integration' and they have no understanding of what is at stake---.
> 
> The problem over here is---that they have learnt nothing about 'integration' from the experience of the JF17---.
> 
> Paf used to claim that the aircraft would be ready and going in a couple of years---. It is close to 14 years and still integration problems are lingering---.
> 
> Young pakistanis are still living in the six shooter / quick draw mode---the stories that they had heard from their elders---you see---you position---you shoot---.


Yes absolutely. There are completely two different mindsets, methodologies, standards (if any), software design, verification, proof checkers etc - i am not being negative but many people are not realising what you need. You need excellent runway of dedicated professors who will mould students in their thoughts and then undergo apprenticeship to be allowing to undertake such marathon ventures; let alone sit between two different cultures to decipher and try to make them work.

Even with Jf-17, just with the change over of the radar, has anyone done the entire exercise to completely take end to end how the new radar would be working, its microcode etc and then working forward to how it would interface. Where are the professors/academic engineers on this side from Pak side (I mean outside PAF - they are not engineers or architects) in this entire venture. It is a shame as by this time one expects to have entire departments supporting in various capacities up to simulation of various design parameters of the sub-systems. Was that outsourced to china? It looks like it.

You know the difference when we have CPUT/Univ of Stellenbosch departments with their students working on new generation of Cubes/microsatellites which are going up into the sky; one set just went up 2 days back. Could this not be done in Pak? Yes it can but there is this stupid fallacy that this is the realm of defence area - wrong.

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## CriticalThought

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> @denel --- you talk about 'integration' and they have no understanding of what is at stake---.
> 
> The problem over here is---that they have learnt nothing about 'integration' from the experience of the JF17---.
> 
> Paf used to claim that the aircraft would be ready and going in a couple of years---. It is close to 14 years and still integration problems are lingering---.
> 
> Young pakistanis are still living in the six shooter / quick draw mode---the stories that they had heard from their elders---you see---you position---you shoot---.





denel said:


> Yes absolutely. There are completely two different mindsets, methodologies, standards (if any), software design, verification, proof checkers etc - i am not being negative but many people are not realising what you need. You need excellent runway of dedicated professors who will mould students in their thoughts and then undergo apprenticeship to be allowing to undertake such marathon ventures; let alone sit between two different cultures to decipher and try to make them work.
> 
> Even with Jf-17, just with the change over of the radar, has anyone done the entire exercise to completely take end to end how the new radar would be working, its microcode etc and then working forward to how it would interface. Where are the professors/academic engineers on this side from Pak side (I mean outside PAF - they are not engineers or architects) in this entire venture. It is a shame as by this time one expects to have entire departments supporting in various capacities up to simulation of various design parameters of the sub-systems. Was that outsourced to china? It looks like it.
> 
> You know the difference when we have CPUT/Univ of Stellenbosch departments with their students working on new generation of Cubes/microsatellites which are going up into the sky; one set just went up 2 days back. Could this not be done in Pak? Yes it can but there is this stupid fallacy that this is the realm of defence area - wrong.



First of all, there is now such a thing as PAF Vision 2047. For working with Turkey, we have the luxury of time. Second, you are ignoring the level of support that Turks have provided to us. Just recently we have signed an MoU for complete ToT of Milgem corvettes. We shall not be alone in this integration. Another case in point is the ASELPOD. Moving forward, do you think PAF will not integrate Turkish BVRs on Thunder? Already there is talk of integrating SOM for Azeri Thunders. This integration expertise can be applied to other projects as well. So please, spare us the condescending attitude.

But partnering with Turkey opens another avenue. Learning manufacturing techniques from Turkey such as materials, welds, joining etc and applying them to Thunders or other projects. Many years ago, there was an interview of K-8s lead designer who noted that Egypt's manufacturing techniques for K-8 is superior to China. So yes, collaboration with Turkey will have many benefits, Insha Allah.

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## HRK

for those who are questioning the idea of integration under the notion of flawed understanding of young Pakistani mindset need to see few PAF projects like

- Project Horizon under which AWAC from two different vendors from east and west were inducted and their integration
- Project Vision
- Integration of All Radar of Pakistan consist of radars both from eastern and western vendors under one network
- Developing of link-17
- Different subsystems of western origin in JF-17 like RWR, ALQ-500P etc

therefore I would request them to post their ideas based on realities rather than flawed understanding

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> @denel --- you talk about 'integration' and they have no understanding of what is at stake---.
> 
> The problem over here is---that they have learnt nothing about 'integration' from the experience of the JF17---.
> 
> Paf used to claim that the aircraft would be ready and going in a couple of years---. It is close to 14 years and still integration problems are lingering---.
> 
> Young pakistanis are still living in the six shooter / quick draw mode---the stories that they had heard from their elders---you see---you position---you shoot---.


I saw 2 squadrons with JF-17s recently. Mastan you have little knowledge about it. Old men like you developed an inexperienced hate. Integration is increasing exponentially.

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## denel

Knuckles said:


> I saw 2 squadrons with JF-17s recently. Mastan you have little knowledge about it. Old men like you developed an inexperienced hate. Integration is increasing exponentially.


i am speaking about internal systems development and integration vs external weapons integration. these are completely different things.


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## Raider 21

denel said:


> i am speaking about internal systems development and integration vs external weapons integration. these are completely different things.


And I meant it in both categories.


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## Maxpane

interesting discussion


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## monitor

* F-16 Gear in transit *

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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> I saw 2 squadrons with JF-17s recently. Mastan you have little knowledge about it. Old men like you developed an inexperienced hate. Integration is increasing exponentially.



Hi,

I am sure you did not understand what I was saying---.

The importance of the difficulty of the task of integration must be understood before jumping from one venture to the other---. It is not a cake walk---.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am sure you did not understand what I was saying---.
> 
> The importance of the difficulty of the task of integration must be understood before jumping from one venture to the other---. It is not a cake walk---.


I misread it earlier. Apologies but sometimes I use my mobile.

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## Nasr

CriticalThought said:


> First of all, there is now such a thing as PAF Vision 2047. For working with Turkey, we have the luxury of time. Second, you are ignoring the level of support that Turks have provided to us. Just recently we have signed an MoU for complete ToT of Milgem corvettes. We shall not be alone in this integration. Another case in point is the ASELPOD. Moving forward, do you think PAF will not integrate Turkish BVRs on Thunder? Already there is talk of integrating SOM for Azeri Thunders. This integration expertise can be applied to other projects as well. So please, spare us the condescending attitude.
> 
> But partnering with Turkey opens another avenue. Learning manufacturing techniques from Turkey such as materials, welds, joining etc and applying them to Thunders or other projects. Many years ago, there was an interview of K-8s lead designer who noted that Egypt's manufacturing techniques for K-8 is superior to China. So yes, collaboration with Turkey will have many benefits, Insha Allah.



Umm forgive me but doesn't China have greater manufacturing techniques, level of technology being far advance than Turkey? And in the same breath, isn't China, Pakistan's "Premier Ally"? Then why is it that Pakistan hasn't by default approached China on such matters? Is that we have made it a habit of thinking that Chinese have inferior technology, whereas the world has come to understand and acknowledge China's prowess in technology. China has surpassed the rest of the world in Nuclear Power technology with likes of Pebble Bed reactors and fast breeder reactors. 

In fact, if we were to look at the period between 2005-2018, had we considered replacing or substituting F-16s with J-10s at the time, even if it were technology information and exchange. Then today Pakistan Air Force would have been in a stronger position to go for or already have J-10CEs (who knows, we would've already have A ESA by now). Granted if funds were available, but still, I don't think we treat China with greater status of being our premier ally, than we ought to.


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## MastanKhan

Ghazwa1 said:


> Umm forgive me but doesn't China have greater manufacturing techniques, level of technology being far advance than Turkey? And in the same breath, isn't China, Pakistan's "Premier Ally"? Then why is it that Pakistan hasn't by default approached China on such matters? Is that we have made it a habit of thinking that Chinese have inferior technology, whereas the world has come to understand and acknowledge China's prowess in technology. China has surpassed the rest of the world in Nuclear Power technology with likes of Pebble Bed reactors and fast breeder reactors.
> 
> In fact, if we were to look at the period between 2005-2018, had we considered replacing or substituting F-16s with J-10s at the time, even if it were technology information and exchange. Then today Pakistan Air Force would have been in a stronger position to go for or already have J-10CEs (who knows, we would've already have A ESA by now). Granted if funds were available, but still, I don't think we treat China with greater status of being our premier ally, than we ought to.



Hi,

China is a little behind in EW package---. 

In engine technology---it is 5th on the list after US---UK---France---Russia---.

The Turks have better access to some of the technologies thru their western alliances that the chinese do not---.

As for the J10---. We could have had our F16's if the ACM of Paf had not decided to donate the funds to earthquake relief in 2005---. Those billions were then looted by the govt employees and politicians---.

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## Maxpane



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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> *China is a little behind in EW package---. *
> 
> In engine technology---it is 5th on the list after US---UK---France---Russia---.
> 
> The Turks have better access to some of the technologies thru their western alliances that the chinese do not---.
> 
> As for the J10---. We could have had our F16's if the ACM of Paf had not decided to donate the funds to earthquake relief in 2005---. Those billions were then looted by the govt employees and politicians---.


And very behind on flying operations. They have the aircraft, they have some tech but no tactical sense or awareness.

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## Maxpane



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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> And very behind on flying operations. They have the aircraft, they have some tech but no tactical sense or awareness.



Hi,

That is interesting information---. The chinese need to train a lot against foreign air forces---.

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## Nasr

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> China is a little behind in EW package---.
> 
> In engine technology---it is 5th on the list after US---UK---France---Russia---.
> 
> The Turks have better access to some of the technologies thru their western alliances that the chinese do not---.
> 
> As for the J10---. We could have had our F16's if the ACM of Paf had not decided to donate the funds to earthquake relief in 2005---. Those billions were then looted by the govt employees and politicians---.



Wouldn't the Turks access to western tech be subject to scrutiny if such tech was shared with Pakistan by the Turks, in military deal? It is more than likely that the West would block access to such tech provided by the Turks. And if the Chinese are so bad at EW, then why not turn to Russia for assistance or joint cooperation? Since western tech would be used as leverage against Pakistan. Then wouldn't it be better to cut the snake's head before circumstances lead to the inevitable. And in so far as Turks are concerned, Pakistan would be wise to shield itself from a potentially ugly disaster when things take a turn for the worst.


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## Tank131

I dont think that we can say china is behind Turkey in EW Tech. Rather, China is probably number 3 or 4 on thr list of leaders in realm which also include France, Israel, and of course, the US. In fact, their progress in electronics has been shocking to a great extent and their development of a EW variant of the J-16 (the J-16D) which is akin to the EA-18G growler has caused a great deal of concern in the Pacific region.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...raft-might-have-terrifying-new-military-23427

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## Maxpane



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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is interesting information---. The chinese need to train a lot against foreign air forces---.


That's why they have started hiring westerners (Pakistanis included) on big contracts to teach them tactics. Aircraft being used as trainers at that time was the FTC-2000 to enhance their students advanced jet training.

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## Fieldmarshal

Knuckles said:


> That's why they have started hiring westerners (Pakistanis included) on big contracts to teach them tactics. Aircraft being used as trainers at that time was the FTC-2000 to enhance their students advanced jet training.



Mostly on deputation.

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## Raider 21

Fieldmarshal said:


> Mostly on deputation.


Civilians on direct contract, at that time westerners and a single Pakistani . The ones who were teaching them tactics. Currently they may have them (Pakistanis) on deputation but westerners cannot be sent on deputation to a military they have no formal military relations.


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## Readerdefence

Tank131 said:


> I dont think that we can say china is behind Turkey in EW Tech. Rather, China is probably number 3 or 4 on thr list of leaders in realm which also include France, Israel, and of course, the US. In fact, their progress in electronics has been shocking to a great extent and their development of a EW variant of the J-16 (the J-16D) which is akin to the EA-18G growler has caused a great deal of concern in the Pacific region.
> 
> https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...raft-might-have-terrifying-new-military-23427


Hi my friend how are russians capability wise in EW and jamming pods I believe if not legend not too far way from Americans so can’t they help out Chinese in their training 
Your input will be appreciated 
Thank you


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## Super Falcon

As far as my knowledge our entire F 16 fleet is based on average fighting capabilities with no AESA radar enemy can jam our F 16 Radars easily and range and enemies air defence and against indian Rafales Sukhoi it wont have any chance we lack numbers and qualitive edge if you cannot see and track and lock on your enemy no matter how good pilot you are you dont have chance 

Tude of fighting is changed so should be paf mentality it is not men behind machine 

Give best chance to pilot with better aircrafts so he can use his skills

Can K 8 with bestvpilot defeat mig 21 with average pilot

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## Tank131

Its not as if the f-16 is a sitting duck. The PAFs block 52+ has one of best EW packages available from the US. It will hold its own against MKI. Additionally itnis flying under the watch of the Erieyes.

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## Nasr

Tank131 said:


> Its not as if the f-16 is a sitting duck. The PAFs block 52+ has one of best EW packages available from the US. It will hold its own against MKI. Additionally itnis flying under the watch of the Erieyes.



18 Block-52s of Pakistan Air Force versus 272 MKi Flankers of indian Air Force. Yeah they definitely hold their own against such overwhelming odds, wouldn't they!! Quality of fighter pilot training goes only so far. The technology edge went out the window when the indians went for Flankers with Western avionics. They already had a numerical superiority against us in any case. Now we are entirely comfortable with just 18 Block-52s to take on an armada of Flankers. Simply splendid!! 

Don't get me wrong brother, but it is one thing to stay positive and confident in the face of overwhelming odds. And it is another to not confront the elephant in the room. Block-52s are just dandy, but let's leave it at that, shall we?! It is time for Pakistan Air Force to move on from their romance with the F-16s. Because honestly speaking this aircraft has done nothing but give Pakistan grief from get go. F-16s Achilles heel is "SANCTIONS" ... Period!!!! It is time for us to take a 9mm and shot the mentality of seeking out western tech, in the friggin face. Unless there is a full proof contingency in place, whereby Pakistan military has sufficient stockpile of spares for any and all western hardware. There is no point, no value and no reason to discuss any western military hardware purchase. Even if it is via a "Muslim Brother Country" (yeah right!!!) Turkey. Because we have seen already what Pakistan faces the moment they inked a deal for 30 T-129 Atak helos. Now they're scrambling to find alternative engines for the dam thing to fly. I picture us already taking a shot gun and shooting ourselves in the right foot (Block-52s), then we take the shot gun and shoot ourselves in the left foot (T-129s & Milgems). Yeah I get, western tech is so great, so super awesome and is incomparable to anything else, anyone else is developing. But it's not, look the Chinese with J-20s, Y-20s, Type-55s, CV-17s and the Russians with their super weapons Avanguard HGV, Burevestnik (nuke power CM), Poseidon (nuke powered torpedo), Sarmat (ultra long range ICBM). So West is NOT the end all, be all, cure all. 

The single most pivotal decision made by Pakistan Air Force is to stay on course with the development of the JF-17 Thunders. Now, when Block-lll Thunders roll out with AESA radars, it would give Pakistan Air Force a capability that not even the great and awesome Block-52s don't give us. And why is AESA such a big deal? Well, since people generally (like blind bats) watch the West so very closely ... a decade ago, the USAF leadership took the decision to upgrade their F-15 fleet and install AESA radars on as many of them as they possibly can. The reason why they did that, was to compensate for the miniscule fleet Raptors that the US Govt allowed them to field (187 of them). By installing more AESA radars on their F-15s (46 year old aircraft btw), the USAF hopes to counter RuAF & PLAAF, and their Gen-4++ fighters and Gen-5 stealth jets. For Pakistan Air Force, AESA capability couldn't come any sooner. As records show, that is what Pakistan Air Force was after the french for, before those fugly frogs left us high n dry for the indian MMRCA deal. So you see my dear brother, Block-52s maybe all that, but our Block-llls is what I have more faith in.

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## Tank131

Ghazwa1 said:


> 18 Block-52s of Pakistan Air Force versus 272 MKi Flankers of indian Air Force. Yeah they definitely hold their own against such overwhelming odds, wouldn't they!! Quality of fighter pilot training goes only so far. The technology edge went out the window when the indians went for Flankers with Western avionics. They already had a numerical superiority against us in any case. Now we are entirely comfortable with just 18 Block-52s to take on an armada of Flankers. Simply splendid!!
> 
> Don't get me wrong brother, but it is one thing to stay positive and confident in the face of overwhelming odds. And it is another to not confront the elephant in the room. Block-52s are just dandy, but let's leave it at that, shall we?! It is time for Pakistan Air Force to move on from their romance with the F-16s. Because honestly speaking this aircraft has done nothing but give Pakistan grief from get go. F-16s Achilles heel is "SANCTIONS" ... Period!!!! It is time for us to take a 9mm and shot the mentality of seeking out western tech, in the friggin face. Unless there is a full proof contingency in place, whereby Pakistan military has sufficient stockpile of spares for any and all western hardware. There is no point, no value and no reason to discuss any western military hardware purchase. Even if it is via a "Muslim Brother Country" (yeah right!!!) Turkey. Because we have seen already what Pakistan faces the moment they inked a deal for 30 T-129 Atak helos. Now they're scrambling to find alternative engines for the dam thing to fly. I picture us already taking a shot gun and shooting ourselves in the right foot (Block-52s), then we take the shot gun and shoot ourselves in the left foot (T-129s & Milgems). Yeah I get, western tech is so great, so super awesome and is incomparable to anything else, anyone else is developing. But it's not, look the Chinese with J-20s, Y-20s, Type-55s, CV-17s and the Russians with their super weapons Avanguard HGV, Burevestnik (nuke power CM), Poseidon (nuke powered torpedo), Sarmat (ultra long range ICBM). So West is NOT the end all, be all, cure all.
> 
> The single most pivotal decision made by Pakistan Air Force is to stay on course with the development of the JF-17 Thunders. Now, when Block-lll Thunders roll out with AESA radars, it would give Pakistan Air Force a capability that not even the great and awesome Block-52s don't give us. And why is AESA such a big deal? Well, since people generally (like blind bats) watch the West so very closely ... a decade ago, the USAF leadership took the decision to upgrade their F-15 fleet and install AESA radars on as many of them as they possibly can. The reason why they did that, was to compensate for the miniscule fleet Raptors that the US Govt allowed them to field (187 of them). By installing more AESA radars on their F-15s (46 year old aircraft btw), the USAF hopes to counter RuAF & PLAAF, and their Gen-4++ fighters and Gen-5 stealth jets. For Pakistan Air Force, AESA capability couldn't come any sooner. As records show, that is what Pakistan Air Force was after the french for, before those fugly frogs left us high n dry for the indian MMRCA deal. So you see my dear brother, Block-52s maybe all that, but our Block-llls is what I have more faith in.


I agree with most everything you said, but one small correction about the only 18 blk 52+...the A/B in PAF have gone through MLU and with the exception of airframe centric issues (like cft) carry more or less the same electronics, so PAF actually has 76 F-16 which have strong EW capabilities AND the point i was making is that these are backed by ground stations and 11 AWACS (when the second round of erieye is acquired) so the EW environment is not so one-sided.


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## Khaqan Humayun

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> WTF---where did turkey get the magic bullet from---.
> 
> Pakistan is way ahead of Turkey in fighter aircraft manufacture---. We have over a 100 inducted aircraft to prove that---.
> 
> Our alliance with china is far advanced---why do we need to step back to join hands with Turkey on a project that is far back---.
> 
> Why waste time with Turkey and invest our money---when china is way ahead and spending its money on the project---.




Dear

Pak-China and Turkey are trying to make a triangle defense corporation and they also want Russia to help them.

Turkey has excellent experience of working on F-16 it has Rolls-Royces engine technology that will help Pak-China both.

A Euro-Asian technology is required to build more batter jets.

You must see the technological advantage that turkey have.

Why do we send our F-16 to Turkey for MLU?


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## Shabi1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> WTF---where did turkey get the magic bullet from---.
> 
> Pakistan is way ahead of Turkey in fighter aircraft manufacture---. We have over a 100 inducted aircraft to prove that---.
> 
> Our alliance with china is far advanced---why do we need to step back to join hands with Turkey on a project that is far back---.
> 
> Why waste time with Turkey and invest our money---when china is way ahead and spending its money on the project---.



Making a fighter jet from scratch does put Pakistan ahead of Turkey but in terms of F-16s since they had license production capability and overhaul infrastructure from US. TUSAS is ahead as a component manufacturer and systems integrator since it had favorable initial US assistance. Same reason PAF selected TUSAS to carry out upgrades on its own F-16s.

Something Pakistan couldn't attempt since it was under sanctions for a considerable time.

Turkey is upgrading it's own F-16s to fire the Meteor.
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/07/17/turkish-f-16-jets-to-get-structural-upgrades/

And they are working on its own F-16V style upgrade for future F-16 upgrade tenders. Picture of a Aselsan AESA radar in the works.





Expected timeline for AESA 2020




F-16 Özgür cockpit






It is pretty safe to assume PAF will again employ Turkish assistance for future F-16 upgrades.

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## Khaqan Humayun

My Dear and Beloved Pakistani,

We must understand that USA will not provide us more F-16 until they start a new war with the help of Pakistan. 1st They gave us F-16 during Russian Afghan war then they stopped.

2nd After 9/11 and see the result now.

Will you wait for a new war?

The world is an open market with the help of our friend countries China, France, Turkey, Germany Sweden including Russia we can make a copy of F-16 or a new batter jet than F-16.

(Copy to fulfill the need of PAF)

Learn from China they copy Russian jets to fulfill their need and save massive amount for their Nation.

USA copied jets from Russia (Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 and made Saber Jets).



Tank131 said:


> Its not as if the f-16 is a sitting duck. The PAFs block 52+ has one of best EW packages available from the US. It will hold its own against MKI. Additionally itnis flying under the watch of the Erieyes.



We must understand that USA will not provide us more F-16 until they start a new war with the help of Pakistan. 1st They gave us F-16 during Russian Afghan war then they stopped.

2nd After 9/11 and see the result now.

Will you wait for a new war?

The world is an open market with the help of our friend countries China, France, Turkey, Germany Sweden including Russia we can make a copy of F-16 or a new batter jet than F-16.

(Copy to fulfill the need of PAF)

Learn from China they copy Russian jets to fulfill their need and save massive amount for their Nation.

USA copied jets from Russia (Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 and made Saber Jets).


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## Tank131

Khaqan Humayun said:


> My Dear and Beloved Pakistani,
> 
> We must understand that USA will not provide us more F-16 until they start a new war with the help of Pakistan. 1st They gave us F-16 during Russian Afghan war then they stopped.
> 
> 2nd After 9/11 and see the result now.
> 
> Will you wait for a new war?
> 
> The world is an open market with the help of our friend countries China, France, Turkey, Germany Sweden including Russia we can make a copy of F-16 or a new batter jet than F-16.
> 
> (Copy to fulfill the need of PAF)
> 
> Learn from China they copy Russian jets to fulfill their need and save massive amount for their Nation.
> 
> USA copied jets from Russia (Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 and made Saber Jets).
> 
> 
> 
> We must understand that USA will not provide us more F-16 until they start a new war with the help of Pakistan. 1st They gave us F-16 during Russian Afghan war then they stopped.
> 
> 2nd After 9/11 and see the result now.
> 
> Will you wait for a new war?
> 
> The world is an open market with the help of our friend countries China, France, Turkey, Germany Sweden including Russia we can make a copy of F-16 or a new batter jet than F-16.
> 
> (Copy to fulfill the need of PAF)
> 
> Learn from China they copy Russian jets to fulfill their need and save massive amount for their Nation.
> 
> USA copied jets from Russia (Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 and made Saber Jets).



What does that have to do with what I said. The point is the F-16 has good EW capabilities. I was not advocating for chasing after more of them.

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## salman-1

How clumsy the trump may be, but he is not a warrior mind like Bush family. He has started pulling Us troops from where ever he can e.g is Syria and Afghanistan. He will do only trade war and sanctions for he thinks his country can benefit. I don't think Americans will have any war in his tenure atleast.


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## Shabi1

Khaqan Humayun said:


> My Dear and Beloved Pakistani,
> 
> We must understand that USA will not provide us more F-16 until they start a new war with the help of Pakistan. 1st They gave us F-16 during Russian Afghan war then they stopped.
> 
> 2nd After 9/11 and see the result now.
> 
> Will you wait for a new war?
> 
> The world is an open market with the help of our friend countries China, France, Turkey, Germany Sweden including Russia we can make a copy of F-16 or a new batter jet than F-16.
> 
> (Copy to fulfill the need of PAF)
> 
> Learn from China they copy Russian jets to fulfill their need and save massive amount for their Nation.
> 
> USA copied jets from Russia (Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 and made Saber Jets).
> 
> 
> 
> We must understand that USA will not provide us more F-16 until they start a new war with the help of Pakistan. 1st They gave us F-16 during Russian Afghan war then they stopped.
> 
> 2nd After 9/11 and see the result now.
> 
> Will you wait for a new war?
> 
> The world is an open market with the help of our friend countries China, France, Turkey, Germany Sweden including Russia we can make a copy of F-16 or a new batter jet than F-16.
> 
> (Copy to fulfill the need of PAF)
> 
> Learn from China they copy Russian jets to fulfill their need and save massive amount for their Nation.
> 
> USA copied jets from Russia (Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15 and made Saber Jets).


We don't need more F-16s, just need to keep the existing ones airworthy and extend their lives till they can be replaced with Turkish upgrades.


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## wulff

Tank131 said:


> I dont think that we can say china is behind Turkey in EW Tech. Rather, China is probably number 3 or 4 on thr list of leaders in realm which also include France, Israel, and of course, the US. In fact, their progress in electronics has been shocking to a great extent and their development of a EW variant of the J-16 (the J-16D) which is akin to the EA-18G growler has caused a great deal of concern in the Pacific region.
> 
> https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...raft-might-have-terrifying-new-military-23427



The problem isn't that China is behind the "West". It is, but not as much as is made out to be. The problem really is what level of tech China has made available for export. THAT is what is far behind the level of what the "west" exports. China still makes available for Pakistan only such equipment which is cleared for export by the PLA. The monkeyed versions, if you prefer. Had Pakistan had the foresight like the Israelis do with America, it would have long ago secured an agreement whereby China would release to Pakistan a level of technology that is just one notch below what the PLA has. Something that is guaranteed to be much more advanced than what is cleared for export by china otherwise.

Even better, Pakistan should have made an agreement whereby the Pakistan Military would have the facility to directly approach Chinese Military Industrial SOEs to design and develop systems for it, without going through the chinese government. For example, PAF could approach LETRI to develop for them a ramjet based bvraam. According to reports, the ramjet engine tech for this missile has already been developed by China during the development of PL-15. It can give Pakistan a meteor class missile from China. The PLAAF may not have cleared the PL-15 for export, but the competitor missile that lost could be cleared for Pakistan. If only the government would negotiate with the Chinese government to allow Pakistan to acquire tech that is deemed too sensitive for export but not operationalized by the PLA. Thats the fruit an weather strategic partnership should give to this country.



Ghazwa1 said:


> 18 Block-52s of Pakistan Air Force versus 272 MKi Flankers of indian Air Force. Yeah they definitely hold their own against such overwhelming odds, wouldn't they!! Quality of fighter pilot training goes only so far. The technology edge went out the window when the indians went for Flankers with Western avionics. They already had a numerical superiority against us in any case. Now we are entirely comfortable with just 18 Block-52s to take on an armada of Flankers. Simply splendid!!
> 
> Don't get me wrong brother, but it is one thing to stay positive and confident in the face of overwhelming odds. And it is another to not confront the elephant in the room. Block-52s are just dandy, but let's leave it at that, shall we?! It is time for Pakistan Air Force to move on from their romance with the F-16s. Because honestly speaking this aircraft has done nothing but give Pakistan grief from get go. F-16s Achilles heel is "SANCTIONS" ... Period!!!! It is time for us to take a 9mm and shot the mentality of seeking out western tech, in the friggin face. Unless there is a full proof contingency in place, whereby Pakistan military has sufficient stockpile of spares for any and all western hardware. There is no point, no value and no reason to discuss any western military hardware purchase. Even if it is via a "Muslim Brother Country" (yeah right!!!) Turkey. Because we have seen already what Pakistan faces the moment they inked a deal for 30 T-129 Atak helos. Now they're scrambling to find alternative engines for the dam thing to fly. I picture us already taking a shot gun and shooting ourselves in the right foot (Block-52s), then we take the shot gun and shoot ourselves in the left foot (T-129s & Milgems). Yeah I get, western tech is so great, so super awesome and is incomparable to anything else, anyone else is developing. But it's not, look the Chinese with J-20s, Y-20s, Type-55s, CV-17s and the Russians with their super weapons Avanguard HGV, Burevestnik (nuke power CM), Poseidon (nuke powered torpedo), Sarmat (ultra long range ICBM). So West is NOT the end all, be all, cure all.
> 
> The single most pivotal decision made by Pakistan Air Force is to stay on course with the development of the JF-17 Thunders. Now, when Block-lll Thunders roll out with AESA radars, it would give Pakistan Air Force a capability that not even the great and awesome Block-52s don't give us. And why is AESA such a big deal? Well, since people generally (like blind bats) watch the West so very closely ... a decade ago, the USAF leadership took the decision to upgrade their F-15 fleet and install AESA radars on as many of them as they possibly can. The reason why they did that, was to compensate for the miniscule fleet Raptors that the US Govt allowed them to field (187 of them). By installing more AESA radars on their F-15s (46 year old aircraft btw), the USAF hopes to counter RuAF & PLAAF, and their Gen-4++ fighters and Gen-5 stealth jets. For Pakistan Air Force, AESA capability couldn't come any sooner. As records show, that is what Pakistan Air Force was after the french for, before those fugly frogs left us high n dry for the indian MMRCA deal. So you see my dear brother, Block-52s maybe all that, but our Block-llls is what I have more faith in.



Finally, someone has the guts to call out the elephant in the room. Three cheers to you my friend. Carry on and may someone in the right place see the mortal danger that has been ignored so long by those who prefer to bury their heads in the sand

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## MastanKhan

wulff said:


> The problem isn't that China is behind the "West". It is, but not as much as is made out to be. The problem really is what level of tech China has made available for export. THAT is what is far behind the level of what the "west" exports. China still makes available for Pakistan only such equipment which is cleared for export by the PLA. The monkeyed versions, if you prefer. Had Pakistan had the foresight like the Israelis do with America, it would have long ago secured an agreement whereby China would release to Pakistan a level of technology that is just one notch below what the PLA has. Something that is guaranteed to be much more advanced than what is cleared for export by china otherwise.
> 
> Even better, Pakistan should have made an agreement whereby the Pakistan Military would have the facility to directly approach Chinese Military Industrial SOEs to design and develop systems for it, without going through the chinese government. For example, PAF could approach LETRI to develop for them a ramjet based bvraam. According to reports, the ramjet engine tech for this missile has already been developed by China during the development of PL-15. It can give Pakistan a meteor class missile from China. The PLAAF may not have cleared the PL-15 for export, but the competitor missile that lost could be cleared for Pakistan. If only the government would negotiate with the Chinese government to allow Pakistan to acquire tech that is deemed too sensitive for export but not operationalized by the PLA. Thats the fruit an weather strategic partnership should give to this country.
> 
> 
> 
> Finally, someone has the guts to call out the elephant in the room. Three cheers to you my friend. Carry on and may someone in the right place see the mortal danger that has been ignored so long by those who prefer to bury their heads in the sand



Hi,

Thank you for an excellent post---.

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## MastanKhan

Ghazwa1 said:


> 18 Block-52s of Pakistan Air Force versus 272 MKi Flankers of indian Air Force. Yeah they definitely hold their own against such overwhelming odds, wouldn't they!! Quality of fighter pilot training goes only so far. The technology edge went out the window when the indians went for Flankers with Western avionics. They already had a numerical superiority against us in any case. Now we are entirely comfortable with just 18 Block-52s to take on an armada of Flankers. Simply splendid!!
> 
> Don't get me wrong brother, but it is one thing to stay positive and confident in the face of overwhelming odds. And it is another to not confront the elephant in the room. Block-52s are just dandy, but let's leave it at that, shall we?! It is time for Pakistan Air Force to move on from their romance with the F-16s. Because honestly speaking this aircraft has done nothing but give Pakistan grief from get go. F-16s Achilles heel is "SANCTIONS" ... Period!!!! It is time for us to take a 9mm and shot the mentality of seeking out western tech, in the friggin face. Unless there is a full proof contingency in place, whereby Pakistan military has sufficient stockpile of spares for any and all western hardware. There is no point, no value and no reason to discuss any western military hardware purchase. Even if it is via a "Muslim Brother Country" (yeah right!!!) Turkey. Because we have seen already what Pakistan faces the moment they inked a deal for 30 T-129 Atak helos. Now they're scrambling to find alternative engines for the dam thing to fly. I picture us already taking a shot gun and shooting ourselves in the right foot (Block-52s), then we take the shot gun and shoot ourselves in the left foot (T-129s & Milgems). Yeah I get, western tech is so great, so super awesome and is incomparable to anything else, anyone else is developing. But it's not, look the Chinese with J-20s, Y-20s, Type-55s, CV-17s and the Russians with their super weapons Avanguard HGV, Burevestnik (nuke power CM), Poseidon (nuke powered torpedo), Sarmat (ultra long range ICBM). So West is NOT the end all, be all, cure all.
> 
> The single most pivotal decision made by Pakistan Air Force is to stay on course with the development of the JF-17 Thunders. Now, when Block-lll Thunders roll out with AESA radars, it would give Pakistan Air Force a capability that not even the great and awesome Block-52s don't give us. And why is AESA such a big deal? Well, since people generally (like blind bats) watch the West so very closely ... a decade ago, the USAF leadership took the decision to upgrade their F-15 fleet and install AESA radars on as many of them as they possibly can. The reason why they did that, was to compensate for the miniscule fleet Raptors that the US Govt allowed them to field (187 of them). By installing more AESA radars on their F-15s (46 year old aircraft btw), the USAF hopes to counter RuAF & PLAAF, and their Gen-4++ fighters and Gen-5 stealth jets. For Pakistan Air Force, AESA capability couldn't come any sooner. As records show, that is what Pakistan Air Force was after the french for, before those fugly frogs left us high n dry for the indian MMRCA deal. So you see my dear brother, Block-52s maybe all that, but our Block-llls is what I have more faith in.




Hi,

thank you for an excellent post---.

The quality of a fighter pilot will only go so far---when the battle is not only between two pilots but a battle management system.

Secondly---the aircraft's electronics by themselves will play the most crucial role in the battle---they will direct and assist the pilot to make the right choices---.

So---it is not as simple as the " man behind the machine " motto anymore---.

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## cabatli_53

MastanKhan said:


> the aircraft's electronics by themselves will play the most crucial role in the battle---they will direct and assist the pilot to make the right choices



No matter How difficult but Airframes can be produced in any case. It is electronics, avionics, mission computer, radar, optic performance, communication devices, electronic countermeasure sensors, softwares, fusion center and missile payload make flying aerodynamic metalic boxes superior to others and I believe It is the area “West” is way ahead of other aircraft manufacturers from East. Noone can prove How superior/inferior they are excluding some reasonings in forum pages but I think It will be understood when A serious conflict clicked the door and aircrafts starts to make agressive maneouvrings to protect the future of their nations so It is not important How similar fuselages were designed or How handsome aircrafts were produced or How well they have flown on parades. The scores of air conflicts will be directly related with electronic boxes and sensor generations. That is the reason Western manufacturers do not even allow any “other” countries to screw the bolts of aircrafts. When they exported those strategic systems, Requesting guarantees not to share any serious information with any other states, nor allowing to perform a joint exercise with “hostile” aircrafts. With this way, They keep those aircrafts like a secret box technically not to awaken enemy and this secret box will be opened when It is needed most.

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## Nasr

cabatli_53 said:


> No matter How difficult but Airframes can be produced in any case. It is electronics, avionics, mission computer, radar, optic performance, communication devices, electronic countermeasure sensors, softwares, fusion center and missile payload make flying aerodynamic metalic boxes superior to others and I believe It is the area “West” is way ahead of other aircraft manufacturers from East. Noone can prove How superior/inferior they are but I think It will be understood when A serious conflict clicked the door and aircrafts starts to make agressive maneouvrings to protect the future of their nations. That is the reason Western manufacturers do not even allow any “other” countries to screw the bolts of aircrafts. When they exported those strategic systems, Requesting guarantees not to share any serious information with any other states, nor allowing to perform a joint exercise with “hostile” aircrafts.



Well that boat sailed a long time ago when the Chinese and Pakistanis collaborated on the F-16s. Also was the case when the Australians cracked the code on the F/A-18Cs. China and Russia are catching, but more than that, they have begun to surpass America and the West in some areas. Whether people like to wake up and smell the coffee or not, the reality is that America's preeminence is fading. Economically and technologically.


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## cabatli_53

Ghazwa1 said:


> Well that boat sailed a long time ago when the Chinese and Pakistanis collaborated on the F-16s. Also was the case when the Australians cracked the code on the F/A-18Cs. China and Russia are catching, but more than that, they have begun to surpass America and the West in some areas. Whether people like to wake up and smell the coffee or not, the reality is that America's preeminence is fading. Economically and technologically.



“Catching” and even “Surpass” words seems good on your words but having a technical data from field to prove this claim for aircrafts?


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## Nasr

cabatli_53 said:


> “Catching” and even “Surpass” words seems good on your words but having a technical data from field to prove this claim for aircrafts?



Would really say that aircraft would really matter when Avanguards zip through the stratosphere at Mach-20. Or when DF-21s approach U.S aircraft carriers at Mach-5.

But that's alright, Russia's Izdeliye-30 engines give the Su-57s the edge, as do WS-15s for China. Both countries have been making great strides in aviation. As for countries buying military hardware, like Pakistan is. My only advice is, do not buy Western military hardware UNLESS you have figured out a way to stockpile critical spare parts (including engines), as well as establish proper MRO facilities, which guarantees immunity from sanctions which will definitely hit when a country goes to war. If you can "defang" the snake, then sure keep it and/or buy more. But it is contrived stupidity to keep buying Western military hardware without contingencies in place.


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## cabatli_53

Ghazwa1 said:


> Would really say that aircraft would really matter when Avanguards zip through the stratosphere at Mach-20. Or when DF-21s approach U.S aircraft carriers at Mach-5.
> 
> But that's alright, Russia's Izdeliye-30 engines give the Su-57s the edge, as do WS-15s for China. Both countries have been making great strides in aviation. As for countries buying military hardware, like Pakistan is. My only advice is, do not buy Western military hardware UNLESS you have figured out a way to stockpile critical spare parts (including engines), as well as establish proper MRO facilities, which guarantees immunity from sanctions which will definitely hit when a country goes to war. If you can "defang" the snake, then sure keep it and/or buy more. But it is contrived stupidity to keep buying Western military hardware without contingencies in place.



Which part of your words prove that - China and Russia catched and even surpassed US electronic, avionic and sensor technology to declare Eastern aircrafts superior to US ? Sanctions are a different subjects. No need to talk gas turbine engine technology as well.


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## Nasr

cabatli_53 said:


> Which part of your words prove that - China and Russia catched and even surpassed US electronic, avionic and sensor technology to declare Eastern aircrafts superior to US ? Sanctions are a different subjects. No need to talk gas turbine engine technology as well.



When I said that Russia and China have caught up or surpassed the West, I meant in certain technologies they have. Like Hypersonic GVs, nuclear power plant miniaturization and so on. In aircraft tech, China and Russia have come far enough that today, both countries are on the cusp of fielding Stealth fighters. Which other country besides America, has their own Stealth Fighter program and are on the verge of fielding fully operational aircraft? 

As for your question, not even you can prove American tech is superior to China or Russia. So please don't waste both our times with such questions.


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## MastanKhan

Ghazwa1 said:


> As for your question, not even you can prove American tech is superior to China or Russia. So please don't waste both our times with such questions.



Hi,

It is simply not about the stealth---but what is behind that stealth package that is the back breaker---.

There is a reason that americans are strutting around---they want to test their newer weapons on a more capable enemy than Iraq---many times more capable---.

Why have the russians kept their mouths shut----because they know that they are no match for the americans---.

The chinese are getting impatient---because they have amassed better and capable weapons---but until and unless the chinese don't have 10 aircraft carriers and 400 J20's +++ aircraft---they just need to keep their heads down and keep on building---.

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## Nasr

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is simply not about the stealth---but what is behind that stealth package that is the back breaker---.
> 
> There is a reason that americans are strutting around---they want to test their newer weapons on a more capable enemy than Iraq---many times more capable---.
> 
> Why have the russians kept their mouths shut----because they know that they are no match for the americans---.
> 
> The chinese are getting impatient---because they have amassed better and capable weapons---but until and unless the chinese don't have 10 aircraft carriers and 400 J20's +++ aircraft---they just need to keep their heads down and keep on building---.



Americans "strutting their stuff" is more of a PR stunt. However, having said that, the real reason why the Americans were so keen on staying in Syria (in particular), was to test out Russian military hardware against their own. As for the Russians, they aren't in the habit of being big headed. Su-57's deployment in Syria was for particular reason, because Raptors were deployed in Qatar, supporting so-called U.S campaign against ISIS. Let's get one thing straight (for the nay sayers on Su-57s) the Frazors haven't received their RAM coatings as of yet. The reason for that is because the Russian industry experts view the maintenance of composite fatigue detection, as pivotal to the aircraft's serviceability and performance. Therefore composite fatigue detection was created on not only the manufacturing level, but also depot maintenance level as well. Technology was created for this particular reason and hence the reason why we haven't seen any Su-57s (pre-production models) with RAM coatings like the Chinese have on their J-20s. Also, there was the wait for Izdeliye-30 engines, which are specifically developed for the Su-57 Frazors. So the Americans ain't got squat on the Russians. Besides, the Chinese are in the same boat as the Russians, as they too await the WS-15 engines to reach serial production phase. The Russians are slightly ahead of the Chinese in that, their Izdeliye-30 is geared to go into serial production this year (2019), whereas the Chinese might get the WS-15 into serial production by next year. Given that China is a manufacturing powerhouse, it would probably catch up with the Russian and perhaps even surpass their production rate by 2022.

So by 2025, both Russia and China would field at least 2 squadrons or more. That is when we would see how things fare, when J-20s are deployed in South China Sea and Su-57s deployed in the Black Sea. See how the Americans strut their stuff then. Russians are smart, unlike their dumb predecessors (Soviets/Bolsheviks), they prioritized the development of super weapons like Kinzhal and Avanguard. Sure the Americans were ranting away that these weapons aren't anywhere near operational and doubted the Russian claims. Then two days ago, when Russia tested it's HGV (Avanguard), it had the Americans shitting their pants. So not all is what it seems my dear brother, and any country that underestimates Russia, does it at their own detriment.


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## GriffinsRule

I think if history is any indication, any country that underestimates the US does it at its own detriment. Russia and China know this full well and will never engage the behemoth directly.

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## Nasr

GriffinsRule said:


> I think if history is any indication, any country that underestimates the US does it at its own detriment. Russia and China know this full well and will never engage the behemoth directly.



It is the other way round, China with its gargantuan BRI "marshal plan" and Russia with its massive Gas Pipeline expansion in Asia and Europe, neither is looking to fight any war with any country. America on the other hand, with its $21 trillion behemoth of a debt, massive unemployment, homelessness, and with DJI crashing over 10 times in 2018. Is actually the one looking to provoke wars. 1000 military bases around the world, America is nothing of what it was during the Cold War. It's biggest, most deadliest enemy is itself. Russia and China don't need to challenge America to war, rather just wait for it to crush under its own weight. When it comes to history, it doesn't seem that America has learnt anything from it ... two words, Soviet Union.


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## GriffinsRule

Americans are a lot more resilient then people give them credit for. And yes, if they have to, they will pick and start a fight/war, whether it is for economic gains, strategic reasons or just to keep the status quo as the sole super power. Even when they don't "win" they leave the other side in utter ruins, and history is a testament to that.

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## Nasr

GriffinsRule said:


> Americans are a lot more resilient then people give them credit for. And yes, if they have to, they will pick and start a fight/war, whether it is for economic gains, strategic reasons or just to keep the status quo as the sole super power. Even when they don't "win" they leave the other side in utter ruins, and history is a testament to that.



History also testifies to the fact that all empires collapse, from Babylonians, to the Persians, the Mongols, Romans, British ... all collapsed. Almost all of them felt they were invincible, indestructible, resilient, benevolent, exceptional and whatever else. America is no exception to this, and history shall testify yet again. There will always be someone stronger, more powerful to rise and challenge. There will always be someone smarter and of sound judgment to surpass the old. On March 2018, Russia showed the world, that no one including America, should ever test Russia's resolve. China has also shown that it will not be bullied into accepting anything, and it has done so by embarking upon a gargantuan naval shipbuilding the likes of which are none in modern history.

Oh and the part about America leaving its opponents in ruins, even if it lost the war. Vietnam would be smiling about now, reading what is being posted here. The last time America faced an equal opponent, was back in 1945. The world has changed a lot since then, and what America is now, isn't where it would want to be, facing an equal opponent. Russia is NOT the Soviet Union, and China is not Japan.

So yes, America will start a war or wars just like Germany did when it declared war on Soviets. And just like Germany couldn't afford not to start a war with the Soviets (to keep the war machine running). So too America cannot afford not to start a war, because it's run out of enemies and has to invent them to justify 1000 military bases around the world and $700 billion defense budget while it's veterans sleep rough, and countless American households toil 3-4 jobs to stay afloat and hundreds of thousands of young Americans in student finance debt before they even begin their jobs.

You can keep living in la la land, thinking America would bounce back and defeat Russia and China. So I remind the world again, Russia is NOT the Soviet Union, and China is NOT Japan. Two decades time, the world would realize the flaw in the American "Exceptionalism." Because the ones who created America and the ones who built America, are long dead and the ones who run America today, are NOTHING like what their predecessors were in the 18th century and never will be like them.

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## araz

GriffinsRule said:


> I think if history is any indication, any country that underestimates the US does it at its own detriment. Russia and China know this full well and will never engage the behemoth directly.


They dont need to do it militarily. However financially US can be ruined but at a great cost to China and the Panda will wait for the right time.
A


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## cabatli_53

Ghazwa1 said:


> As for your question, not even you can prove American tech is superior to China or Russia. So please don't waste both our times with such questio



It seems your logic works well when you mentioned a RAM coating tech along with names of some Eastern turbofan engines to claim Eastern aircrafts “catched” US in terms of superiority/generation. How logical is that? Turkey has an active program developing a 27000lbf turbofan engine for stealth TF-X program. Besides, Turkish industry have a matured stealth tech working for mid section of F35 in paralel to designing/developing own stealth fighter jet. When those programs finished, Should we able to claim Turkey “catched” US in aircraft technology ? Not likely. It is not that simple...but I just wanted to know It is same Russia we talk above which lacks technologically behind in AESA and Optic technologies? That’s why they are struggling to develop own first equivalent product in those years ( whether they perform superior (?) is a big question), while US ruling the World in those fields since decades. I need to mention difficulties Russia facing to develop a stealth aircraft since tens of years as well (India agreed to exit Russian multinational fighter program cause of many voiced concern), while US has mastered the active battle proven stealth technology with bomber, air superiority and ground suppression fighters since 30-40 years. I think It is also important to talk about VTOL and STOVL technology that No country could come close to this league technologically. What China introduced as thrust vector nozzle in recent months, has been applied to F16 aircrafts by early 1990’s. US do not even consider dogfights as a serious maneouvring tactics to apply a similar TVC on their new designed aircrafts but They use similar TVC technology on AA missiles to convert them a deadly 360 degree maneouvrable systems, while HMDS enable pilots to locks on enemy fighters at any position whether It locates inside the coverage of airborne radars or not so they don’t need to stress aircraft with making sharp maneouvrings to defeat them. Besides, If China was such an advanced state technologically in subcomponent level, Pakistan would have never seeked/favored any Western components/sensors for Chinese designed fighters. I am in no position to defend US technological superiority in here since they issue sanctions to my country Although Turkey invested almost 1 billion $ to F35 program but It must be a mentally blind not to consider all those realities on the table to talk about superiority/inferiority things. Thanks God that China and Russia like states are not ruled by “la la land” policies but realistic mindset not to drive the World into a disaster with superiority complex, when they revealed a flying fighter.

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## Nasr

GriffinsRule said:


> Americans are a lot more resilient then people give them credit for.



Wrong!! Americans today, are nothing like the Americans of the 1800s. Back when freedom and justice actually meant something. Back when there still a code of honor, integrity and


cabatli_53 said:


> It seems your logic works well when you mentioned a RAM coating tech along with names of some Eastern turbofan engines to claim Eastern aircrafts “catched” US in terms of superiority/generation. How logical is that? Turkey has an active program developing a 27000lbf turbofan engine for stealth TF-X program and having a matured stealth tech working for mid section of F35 in paralel to designing of own stealth fighter jet. When those programs finished, Should we able to claim Turkey “catched” US in aircraft technology ? Not likely. It is not that simple...but I just wanted to know It is same Russia you talk above which lacks technologically behind in AESA and Optic technologies? That’s why they are struggling to develop own first equivalents today ( performing superior (?) is a big question), while US ruling the World in those fields since decades. It is needed to mention difficulties Russia facing to develop a stealth aircraft since tens of years ? (India agreed to exit Russian multinational fighter program cause of many voiced concern), while US has mastered the stealth fighter technology with bomber, air superiority and ground suppression fighters since 30-40 years. I think It is important to talk about VTOL and STOVL technology that No country could come close to their technologies. What China introduced as thrust vector nozzle today has been applied to US F16 aircrafts by early 1990’s. US do not even consider dogfights as a serious maneouvring tactics to apply a similar TVC on their new designed aircrafts but They use similar TVC technology on AA missiles to convert them a deadly 360 degree maneouvrable while HMDS enable pilots to locks on enemy fighters at any position whether It stays inside of airborne radar coverage or not so they don’t need to stress aircraft with making sharp maneouvrings to defeat them. Besides, If China was such an advanced state technologically in subcomponent level, Pakistan would have never seeked/favored any Western components/sensors for Chinese designed fighters. I am in no position to defend US technological superiority in here since they issue sanctions to my country Although Turkey invested almost 1 billion $ to F35 program but It must be a mentally blind not to consider all those reality on the table to talk about superiority/inferiority things. Thanks God that China and Russia like states are not ruled by “la la land” policies but realistic mindset not to drive the World into a disaster with superiority complexes, when they revealed a flying fighter.



Alright, maybe there is a miscommunication here, language barrier or perhaps I am not making myself clear enough when I say this. But I never said that anything to the tune of Russian or Chinese being superior to Americans on aircraft engine technology.

What I did say was that in *"some areas," *both Russia and China have _"caught up"_ with America in terms of both technology and in _"some respects" _have surpassed America in terms of offensive capability. For example, America has been trying to develop hypersonic capability for years, yet it has zero operational hypersonic weapons nor platforms to show for it. Whereas Russia has not only successfully developed hypersonic weapons, but is also beginning to field operational *"Avanguard"* HGVs (Hypersonic Glide Vehicle) & *"Kinzhal" *ALHMs (Air Lauched Hypersonic Missile). That is factual, not some made up story in a hollywood fantasy movie.

When you speak of Russia, and claim that they lag behind the U.S in terms of technology. It seems a tad disingenuous to your own intelligence. Simply because Russia has in the past led America in many innovative aircraft technologies. Like the fielding of operational HMCS (Helmet Mounted Cuing System) with HOBS (High Off Bore Sight) WVR missiles, on their MiG-29s and Su-27s. America had NOTHING like that on their aircraft back then, and it wasn't until the last decade, that it finally introduced JHMCS & AIM-9X on F-16s, F/A-18s & F-15s. The fact that F-22s have just recently received the same JHMCS/AIM-9X tech, says a lot for the _"oh so great and benevolent America"_. Whereas Russia had introduced this technology decades ago. Same as TVC tech on engines, Russia introduced this tech decades before America did it for the first time on F-22s.

So please don't try to argue the case that America is unsurpassable, too invincible to be overtaken by Russia or China. The only reason why Russia has been behind in fielding operational stealth jets, destroyers or other tech, is not because it doesn't have the technology. Rather because it "*PRIORITIZED*" on what was far more important in strategic terms, when faced with a very active effort by America to choke Russia's rise to being a powerhouse. Consistent sanctions, active effort to drive down the oil prices, threatening Europe to not buy Natural Gas from Russia, meddling in Ukraine, funding ISIS terrorist in Syria (an aim to cheat Russia out of its military base in Tartus, Syria), western media whining like a toddler accusing Russia of meddling in US elections in order to slap on more sanctions. All of these things are precisely why Russia *CHOSE* prioritize on strategic game changing weapons, as oppose to pour all of its money (while oil prices declined and sanctions imposed) on stealth aircraft development.

So let me break this down for you in as simple words as I can, in order for you to fully understand the ground reality .... An F-22 Raptor is worthless, when NORAD detects multiple Nuclear Hypersonic Glide Vehicles descending on continental United States, maneuvering through the atmosphere, at *Mach 20* speed.

This is the part where Russia says, "Check!" Using the term from the chess game. And America scrambles for a response, which as it stands, is actually happening now.

Also, that reference where you say that America doesn't even consider dog fights anymore, is a misnomer. As USAF has in its curriculum, BFM (Basic Fighter Maneuvers) which teaches pilots exactly that. And America mastering stealth accounts for squat, when it only manufactures 187 Raptors. The last time in history America had foregone WVR combat, it paid a heavy price for it in Vietnam. So much so, that the F-4 Phantoms, had to be fitted with external cannon in order to compensate for the lack of any, when the aircraft was designed. That flaw, was due to the same thinking you have mentioned above.

Su-57 Frazors have *6 AESA radars *incorporated into it. The Su-35 Flanker-Es have Irbis-E which is a hybrid radar designed specifically to detect low to very low observable stealth aircraft. Electro Optics and IRST have been pioneered by Russia, who lead in the technology from the front for decades.

It was not the Americans, rather the Israelis who pioneered TVC on their Python missiles. The first American TVC AAM was the AIM-9X, which came out in the past decade or so, whereas other countries have been fielding such missiles for decades.

Lastly, my posts have been directed at the very mindset that my country (Pakistan) has about Western technology. Pakistan has suffered a great deal due to its handicap of Western technology. Precisely because America uses this as leverage against Pakistan and countless other countries who have bought American military hardware. My aim is to shed light on the fact that American technology is NOT the final answer to everything. China has proven this time and time again and so has Russia. This habitual trait needs to be eradicated, because when it has been, Pakistan has benefited from it. The likes of JF-17 Thunders would have never become a reality, if Pakistan was still fixated on Western technology. Which is why, JF-17 Thunders are powered by Russian engines and Chinese avionics, instead of Western ones. Thank God that sensibility prevailed over the dogma that none can match western technology. Because that ship has sailed, and the myth is blown away.

Mark my words, American technology is not the answer for those nations who exercize their right to independent foreign policy. Because either you are an independent country, or you are a vassal state of the Zionist States of America, period!!!

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## MastanKhan

Ghazwa1 said:


> Americans "strutting their stuff" is more of a PR stunt. However, having said that, the real reason why the Americans were so keen on staying in Syria (in particular), was to test out Russian military hardware against their own. As for the Russians, they aren't in the habit of being big headed. Su-57's deployment in Syria was for particular reason, because Raptors were deployed in Qatar, supporting so-called U.S campaign against ISIS. Let's get one thing straight (for the nay sayers on Su-57s) the Frazors haven't received their RAM coatings as of yet. The reason for that is because the Russian industry experts view the maintenance of composite fatigue detection, as pivotal to the aircraft's serviceability and performance. Therefore composite fatigue detection was created on not only the manufacturing level, but also depot maintenance level as well. Technology was created for this particular reason and hence the reason why we haven't seen any Su-57s (pre-production models) with RAM coatings like the Chinese have on their J-20s. Also, there was the wait for Izdeliye-30 engines, which are specifically developed for the Su-57 Frazors. So the Americans ain't got squat on the Russians. Besides, the Chinese are in the same boat as the Russians, as they too await the WS-15 engines to reach serial production phase. The Russians are slightly ahead of the Chinese in that, their Izdeliye-30 is geared to go into serial production this year (2019), whereas the Chinese might get the WS-15 into serial production by next year. Given that China is a manufacturing powerhouse, it would probably catch up with the Russian and perhaps even surpass their production rate by 2022.
> 
> So by 2025, both Russia and China would field at least 2 squadrons or more. That is when we would see how things fare, when J-20s are deployed in South China Sea and Su-57s deployed in the Black Sea. See how the Americans strut their stuff then. Russians are smart, unlike their dumb predecessors (Soviets/Bolsheviks), they prioritized the development of super weapons like Kinzhal and Avanguard. Sure the Americans were ranting away that these weapons aren't anywhere near operational and doubted the Russian claims. Then two days ago, when Russia tested it's HGV (Avanguard), it had the Americans shitting their pants. So not all is what it seems my dear brother, and any country that underestimates Russia, does it at their own detriment.



Hi,

There is no PR stunt in the american weapons industry---. It is simply and purely designed to decimate the enemy---.

The biggest fear I have of the united states is when it claims that the enemy has a potent fighting system that the US is concerned about---.

I know that is a lie---because the americans are intentionally spreading it for the opponent to dare---so that they can try their new goodies---.


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## Nasr

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is no PR stunt in the american weapons industry---. It is simply and purely designed to decimate the enemy---.
> 
> The biggest fear I have of the united states is when it claims that the enemy has a potent fighting system that the US is concerned about---.
> 
> I know that is a lie---because the americans are intentionally spreading it for the opponent to dare---so that they can try their new goodies---.



Yes I can appreciate and share your apprehension on this matter. And I do know that when Americans are _"talking up"_ the capability of the adversary country. That they do so in order to scare the living day lights outta the U.S Congress and the American people. Having said that however, this time around, I believe (strongly) that as March 2018, America has reached the point of where_ "the boy who cried wolf one too many times." _I say this because the control levers are no longer in their hands. 

Although this looks a lot like the Cold War, more dynamic in other respects. And even though I have a sneaking suspicion that there is something up their sleeve. This time around, the playing field is being leveled. Russia is NOT the Soviet Union, and China is not Japan. This time around, it is not all hot air from the Soviets. Reason being, Russia doesn't bluff and has the balls to launch a full scale retaliation nuclear strike on America and its allies. If they try anything, or be a smartass, they will have hell to pay for. China isn't bluffing either, despite its massive BRI projects, spanning continents. China has warned America with a bold straight face, that if America interferes in the Taiwan matter. That China wouldn't hesitate sinking one or more American aircraft carriers in the South China Sea with a saturated missile strike.

Remember, it is not Russia or China that are looking for war, rather it is America. And the reason why America is yearning for an open conflict, is because war would remedy its economic crises, which by the way, is in a critical state. I will quote you just one statistic here, to show you how desperate America really is. _*In the year 2018, the Dow Jones Industrial on the New York Merchantile Exchange, plummeted 500 in a single day of trading, at least 10 times last year. Historically, this has been the worst year for Wall Street. Also, one of America's biggest corporations, Apple Inc. saw $450 billion wiped off its capital value last year. *_This is not an America which has to ability to wage war, let alone win it.


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## khanasifm

Last 13 were slep but avionics were still air def versionand costed 75 million with lots of support eqpt and simulator 

These 15 not sure but has slep plus avionics upgrade m3 so not sure what is asking price and worth the price 

Lastly US approval needed which might be possible due to Afghan talks

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> Last 13 were slep but avionics were still air def versionand costed 75 million with lots of support eqpt and simulator
> 
> These 15 not sure but has slep plus avionics upgrade m3 so not sure what is asking price and worth the price
> 
> Lastly US approval needed which might be possible due to Afghan talks


I hope we will get these planes quick retirement of one more F7 SQDs


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## cabatli_53

Ghazwa1 said:


> Like the fielding of operational HMCS (Helmet Mounted Cuing System) with HOBS (High Off Bore Sight) WVR missiles, on their MiG-29s and Su-27s. America had NOTHING like that on their aircraft back then, and it wasn't until the last decade, that it finally introduced JHMCS & AIM-9X on F-16s, F/A-18s & F-15s. The fact that F-22s have just recently received the same JHMCS/AIM-9X tech, says a lot for the _"oh so great and benevolent America"_. Whereas Russia had introduced this technology decades ago.




It ia difficult to proceed a conversation on mobile phone but Lets correct your misinformation about some subjects...


First seeds of Helmet mounted sight system have been spreaded by Hughes System in 1962. They have revealed first electrocular head mounted monocular display which was able to reflect TV signal into a transparent eyepiece.

First US Helmet mounted sight system was developed by Honeywell and flew in 1974-1978 with F-14/15 aircrafts.

First Helmet mounted sight system in history has been developed by Carl Zeiss Optronic/Hensoldh Optronics in 1970’s and used them on France made Mirage fighters oprated by S. Africa. After S.African aircrafts with HMDS was proven on combat with downing Soviet fighters, Soviets picked this up and applied for own fighters in 1985.

It is certain that Someone introduced this technology decade ago but It is not Russians indeed. With continuous advancing on sight and sensor technology, Today, Russia lacks behind in current generation helmet sight systems against West since the market is totally dominated by US/Israeli and European systems.




Ghazwa1 said:


> please don't try to argue the case that America is unsurpassable, too invincible to be overtaken by Russia or China. The only reason why Russia has been behind in fielding operational stealth jets, destroyers or other tech, is not because it doesn't have the technology. Rather because it "*PRIORITIZED*" on what was far more important in strategic terms



I do not claim US is unsurpassable. What I am doing is just making my point based on facts of current age. It is not my concern If Russians doesn’t have a priority on advancing on aircraft technology cause of several politic and monetary reasons. I just put the facts on straight and let them decide which field they want to advance. Consideration like “they have everything superior but their priority is different” shouldn’t be our concern to talk about.

In additions, It is certain that Russia lacks behind in 3th generation quantum well infrared detector technology so they are dependant on foreign sources If they want a superior sight system competing with Western equivalents. To overcome such a difficult technology, they purchased Belarusian thermal sight institute which is able to produce 1st and 2nd generation thermals for tanks and they have already been struggling to develop those detectors as far as I know(If nothing new occured). As an example to emphasize the importance of those detectors to realize How they effect the structure of aircraft, It must be noted that Russia can’t use IIR sensors for spherical coverage like in F-22, the F-35’s DAS. That is why Su-57 still uses UV-based MAWS. Those detectors are the brain of thermals on tanks, attack helicopters, IRST, aircrafts... As you see they don’t have all to be superior and It is not about solely priorities. Russia signed even a deal with Turkey’s Aselsan when they faced crisis with France since they were using SAGEM thermal detectors on anywhere using sight technology. To overestimate Russia, At least do not underestimate Western efforts.





Ghazwa1 said:


> Su-57 Frazors have *6 AESA radars *incorporated into it. The Su-35 Flanker-Es have Irbis-E which is a hybrid radar designed specifically to detect low to very low observable stealth aircraft. Electro Optics and IRST have been pioneered by Russia, who lead in the technology from the front for decades.



The Su-57’s primary radar is not only having smaller TRM count (~1,500 vs. ~1,676 and ~2,000 in 3rd gen. APG-81& APG77V1) but also decades behind the West. The US started fielding it’s 1st gen. AESA radar on F-15 since 2000– 18-19 years later, Russia is yet to field their first operational AESA radar on a Fighter. Turkish industry tests own AESA radars in 2018. Irbis-E is not an AESA but PESA+ which is an old generation radar compared to Western radar system.

Side looking arrays is a good idea for 360 degree coverage at WVR ranges If Russia want to close gap created by previous generation UV based MAWS but You know It will end up aiding enemy ESM systems in passively tracking your stealth aircraft which is the worst thing a pilot may want. That is the reason F35 uses electro-optic DAS passive tracking system for not only 360 degree situation awareness but also tracking for HMDS and fire control missions for missiles on same role. That is a good example to realize How technological superiority change the aircraft concept sharply. Once you lack behind on any field, you should sacrifice some critical features to catch the rivals on some specific areas.

BTW, Sukhoi-admitted RCS is 1.0 - 0.1 m2 — 1,000 times larger than the F-22’s overall 0.0001 m2 RCS. It is certain that Sukhoi lags so far behind in that critical tech as to be considered not much better than several conventional 4th gen fighters. That must be the real reason India stepprd back from program. While a giant state like Russia can not reveal a system which can be a match to US in aircraft technology, I don’t even mention China whether they could come close to US. If you ask me, US behaves modest while having way superior indrastructure/technology/manufacturing process compared to anybody in this field.



Ghazwa1 said:


> Lastly, my posts have been directed at the very mindset that my country (Pakistan) has about Western technology. Pakistan has suffered a great deal due to its handicap of Western technology. Precisely because America uses this as leverage against Pakistan and countless other countries who have bought American military hardware. My aim is to shed light on the fact that American technology is NOT the final answer to everything. China has proven this time and time again and so has Russia. This habitual trait needs to be eradicated, because when it has been, Pakistan has benefited from it. The likes of JF-17 Thunders would have never become a reality, if Pakistan was still fixated on Western technology. Which is why, JF-17 Thunders are powered by Russian engines and Chinese avionics, instead of Western ones. Thank God that sensibility prevailed over the dogma that none can match western technology. Because that ship has sailed, and the myth is blown away



I support this approach but It should be corrected as neither West, nor East. There should be just one real way for you. Your own way ! Noone can guarantee that you will not meet similar approach US does when Pakistani and Eastern states’ benefits collapse on any regional and politic subject.

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## Nasr

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am not a disrespectful person---but allow me to say---your belief about the US is worth less than the spec of dog sh-it on the sole of my shoe that I wore when I went to work today---.
> 
> So---stop this stupidity---.



Well you realize you've just contradicted yourself there. There is no point in me responding to insults, so I will leave at just that, since I don't usually react to incoherent ramble. Good day to you.

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## denel

Ghazwa1 said:


> Wrong!! Americans today, are nothing like the Americans of the 1800s. Back when freedom and justice actually meant something. Back when there still a code of honor, integrity and
> 
> 
> Alright, maybe there is a miscommunication here, language barrier or perhaps I am not making myself clear enough when I say this. But I never said that anything to the tune of Russian or Chinese being superior to Americans on aircraft engine technology.
> 
> What I did say was that in *"some areas," *both Russia and China have _"caught up"_ with America in terms of both technology and in _"some respects" _have surpassed America in terms of offensive capability. For example, America has been trying to develop hypersonic capability for years, yet it has zero operational hypersonic weapons nor platforms to show for it. Whereas Russia has not only successfully developed hypersonic weapons, but is also beginning to field operational *"Avanguard"* HGVs (Hypersonic Glide Vehicle) & *"Kinzhal" *ALHMs (Air Lauched Hypersonic Missile). That is factual, not some made up story in a hollywood fantasy movie.
> 
> When you speak of Russia, and claim that they lag behind the U.S in terms of technology. It seems a tad disingenuous to your own intelligence. Simply because Russia has in the past led America in many innovative aircraft technologies. Like the fielding of operational HMCS (Helmet Mounted Cuing System) with HOBS (High Off Bore Sight) WVR missiles, on their MiG-29s and Su-27s. America had NOTHING like that on their aircraft back then, and it wasn't until the last decade, that it finally introduced JHMCS & AIM-9X on F-16s, F/A-18s & F-15s. The fact that F-22s have just recently received the same JHMCS/AIM-9X tech, says a lot for the _"oh so great and benevolent America"_. Whereas Russia had introduced this technology decades ago. Same as TVC tech on engines, Russia introduced this tech decades before America did it for the first time on F-22s.
> 
> So please don't try to argue the case that America is unsurpassable, too invincible to be overtaken by Russia or China. The only reason why Russia has been behind in fielding operational stealth jets, destroyers or other tech, is not because it doesn't have the technology. Rather because it "*PRIORITIZED*" on what was far more important in strategic terms, when faced with a very active effort by America to choke Russia's rise to being a powerhouse. Consistent sanctions, active effort to drive down the oil prices, threatening Europe to not buy Natural Gas from Russia, meddling in Ukraine, funding ISIS terrorist in Syria (an aim to cheat Russia out of its military base in Tartus, Syria), western media whining like a toddler accusing Russia of meddling in US elections in order to slap on more sanctions. All of these things are precisely why Russia *CHOSE* prioritize on strategic game changing weapons, as oppose to pour all of its money (while oil prices declined and sanctions imposed) on stealth aircraft development.
> 
> So let me break this down for you in as simple words as I can, in order for you to fully understand the ground reality .... An F-22 Raptor is worthless, when NORAD detects multiple Nuclear Hypersonic Glide Vehicles descending on continental United States, maneuvering through the atmosphere, at *Mach 20* speed.
> 
> This is the part where Russia says, "Check!" Using the term from the chess game. And America scrambles for a response, which as it stands, is actually happening now.
> 
> Also, that reference where you say that America doesn't even consider dog fights anymore, is a misnomer. As USAF has in its curriculum, BFM (Basic Fighter Maneuvers) which teaches pilots exactly that. And America mastering stealth accounts for squat, when it only manufactures 187 Raptors. The last time in history America had foregone WVR combat, it paid a heavy price for it in Vietnam. So much so, that the F-4 Phantoms, had to be fitted with external cannon in order to compensate for the lack of any, when the aircraft was designed. That flaw, was due to the same thinking you have mentioned above.
> 
> Su-57 Frazors have *6 AESA radars *incorporated into it. The Su-35 Flanker-Es have Irbis-E which is a hybrid radar designed specifically to detect low to very low observable stealth aircraft. Electro Optics and IRST have been pioneered by Russia, who lead in the technology from the front for decades.
> 
> It was not the Americans, rather the Israelis who pioneered TVC on their Python missiles. The first American TVC AAM was the AIM-9X, which came out in the past decade or so, whereas other countries have been fielding such missiles for decades.
> 
> Lastly, my posts have been directed at the very mindset that my country (Pakistan) has about Western technology. Pakistan has suffered a great deal due to its handicap of Western technology. Precisely because America uses this as leverage against Pakistan and countless other countries who have bought American military hardware. My aim is to shed light on the fact that American technology is NOT the final answer to everything. China has proven this time and time again and so has Russia. This habitual trait needs to be eradicated, because when it has been, Pakistan has benefited from it. The likes of JF-17 Thunders would have never become a reality, if Pakistan was still fixated on Western technology. Which is why, JF-17 Thunders are powered by Russian engines and Chinese avionics, instead of Western ones. Thank God that sensibility prevailed over the dogma that none can match western technology. Because that ship has sailed, and the myth is blown away.
> 
> Mark my words, American technology is not the answer for those nations who exercize their right to independent foreign policy. Because either you are an independent country, or you are a vassal state of the Zionist States of America, period!!!


Correction to your historical narrative. It was here at Armscor where the first Helmet mounted sights were put together and were in both M3 and F1s to engage Mig-21/23 threats in Angola; Soviets learned from those early encounters and moved to replicate this. The Western forces were later to appreciate this technology 15+ years later on; just as when Iraq experiences showed how poorly US forces were prepared for IEDs that they had then to come begging to us for complete Mine Resistant technology on armoured fighting vehicles - Casspirs are the grand fathers for the larger Oshkosh series with Mamba/RG32s for the later.

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## Nasr

denel said:


> Correction to your historical narrative. It was here at Armscor where the first Helmet mounted sights were put together and were in both M3 and F1s to engage Mig-21/23 threats in Angola; Soviets learned from those early encounters and moved to replicate this. The Western forces were later to appreciate this technology 15+ years later on; just as when Iraq experiences showed how poorly US forces were prepared for IEDs that they had then to come begging to us for complete Mine Resistant technology on armoured fighting vehicles - Casspirs are the grand fathers for the larger Oshkosh series with Mamba/RG32s for the later.



Thank you for the correction, I appreciate it.

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## cabatli_53

denel said:


> Correction to your historical narrative. It was here at Armscor where the first Helmet mounted sights were put together and were in both M3 and F1s to engage Mig-21/23 threats in Angola; Soviets learned from those early encounters and moved to replicate this. The Western forces were later to appreciate this technology 15+ years later on; just as when Iraq experiences showed how poorly US forces were prepared for IEDs that they had then to come begging to us for complete Mine Resistant technology on armoured fighting vehicles - Casspirs are the grand fathers for the larger Oshkosh series with Mamba/RG32s for the later.




I really appreciate S. Africa's achievements on many sector including missiles. You are not only developing those systems but also exporting them abroad (West) successfully which is an open indication of quality and experience.

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## denel

cabatli_53 said:


> I really appreciate S. Africa's achievements on many sector including missiles. You are not only developing those systems but also exporting them abroad successfully which is an open indication of quality and experience.


I am able to write now without worrying about the past as time period has elapsed for discussion. One of the key important points we were experimenting in late 80s was complete situational awareness using decision system to help the pilot focus on the job at hand; sensors were feeding into this early AI based blackbox which would then project best solution. Some of the early works has evolved further and is part of the A-Darter system.

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## cabatli_53

Shabi1 said:


> Making a fighter jet from scratch does put Pakistan ahead of Turkey but in terms of F-16s since they had license production capability and overhaul infrastructure from US. TUSAS is ahead as a component manufacturer and systems integrator since it had favorable initial US assistance. Same reason PAF selected TUSAS to carry out upgrades on its own F-16s.
> 
> Something Pakistan couldn't attempt since it was under sanctions for a considerable time.
> 
> Turkey is upgrading it's own F-16s to fire the Meteor.
> https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/07/17/turkish-f-16-jets-to-get-structural-upgrades/
> 
> And they are working on its own F-16V style upgrade for future F-16 upgrade tenders. Picture of a Aselsan AESA radar in the works.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Expected timeline for AESA 2020
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 Özgür cockpit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is pretty safe to assume PAF will again employ Turkish assistance for future F-16 upgrades.







First AESA radar will be integrated on Akinci UCAV. F-16 AESA is also under development phase. Improved variant of F16 AESA will be integrated on TF-X fighters. In this roadway, Not only TRM modules but also national processors (Çakil) in electronic section is being developed domestically. I expect to see an AESA which will have 2000+ TR module elements which will be competitive, even better to US SABR AESA radar ordered by Greece under F16V upgrade solution. This radar program will be a great challanging to Greeks in order to show the deterrence of Turkish industry. Aselsan did the same strategic maneouvring on Naval AESA radar with developing a state of art S band radar which have 5000TRM GaN module elements while the best radar US allow costumers to order was a AN-SPY-1 family PESA with 4350 modules(Norway, S.Korea, Spain operate this Aegis family on their AAW frigate/destroyers).






Turkey invested/keep investing billion $ on electronic warfare sensors and its electronics since the ends of 1990’s. The activities in this field commenced with cooperation between Aselsan and BAE systems. Advancement, continuous R&D on various areas provide maturity to develop/produce more competitive products for helicopters(HEWS, Özişik) and aircrafts(SPEWS-2).

Aselsan is integrating all national cockpit instruments, AESA radar, mission computers and electronic warfare systems into one test-bed F16 platform to establish a new block which is competitive to Block-70 standards...

F-16 Özgür upgrade - Cockpit section





F-16 Block30 Glass cockpit solution







Electronic warfare field, Various type of ELINT/SGINT/COMINT/IMINT sensors/antennas have been revealed for different missions and integrated on many land vehicles. One of the biggest challenging have been carried out with Koral Radar Electronic Support/Electronic Attack Vehicle.






Navy using Ares family electronic support/attack (Ares-N/S) family. Ares family has been used by Navy for a long time and They are proven systems that actively used on many platforms including submarines.





For Air-Soj- SIGINT/ Stand of Jammer Aircraft, Global5000 will be the base aircraft that Aselsan electronic warfare sensors will be integrated and total 4 AirSoj will be delivered to TurAF. Air-Soj with AESA antenna structure is the last step(I think) a state can reach in this field and, As far as I know there are just a few state in West which has developed/produced such a complicated electronic warfare aircraft and I believe Turkey will be another country which succeeded to reveal it.







Other electronic warfare aircraft project Aselsan develops, is the ESM/ELINT, IMINT(SAR/GMTI, EO/IR), COMINT aircraft called Multi-INT. The base aircraft to be used will be Bombardier Global Express 5000 or GulfStream G550.





Anka-I with ELINT/COMINT sensors are delivered to Turkish intelligence agency last year. Introducing the voice record of Saudi murderers who killed Jamal Kashoggi is an open indication to introduce the capabilities of Turkish electronic intelligence industry...






In addition to those projects, Aselsan/Tubitak team is developing a new electronic warfare pod called "MEHPOD" based on Solid state power amplifier and AESA technology which convert F16 like fighters into a platform which is able to perform active self protection, target detection, tracking, jammer aircrafts. We expect to see the prototypes in IDEF 2019 to be held in the end of April.





I just needed to summarize Turkey's electronic warfare solutions, ongoing projects and solutions which might be beneficial as a base to Pakistani F16 upgrade solutions.

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## Khaqan Humayun

cabatli_53 said:


> First AESA radar will be integrated on Akinci UCAV. F-16 AESA is also under development phase. Improved variant of F16 AESA will be integrated on TF-X fighters. In this roadway, Not only TRM modules but also national processors (Çakil) in electronic section is being developed domestically. I expect to see an AESA which will have 2000+ TR module elements which will be competitive, even better to US SABR AESA radar ordered by Greece under F16V upgrade solution. This radar program will be a great challanging to Greeks in order to show the deterrence of Turkish industry. Aselsan did the same strategic maneouvring on Naval AESA radar with developing a state of art L band radar which have 5000TRM GaN module elements while the best radar US allow costumers to order was a AN-SPY-1 family PESA with 4350 modules(Norway, S.Korea, Spain operate this Aegis family on their AAW frigate/destroyers).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turkey invested/keep investing billion $ on electronic warfare sensors and its electronics since the ends of 1990’s. The activities in this field commenced with cooperation between Aselsan and BAE systems. Advancement, continuous R&D on various areas provide maturity to develop/produce more competitive products for helicopters(HEWS, Özişik) and aircrafts(SPEWS-2).
> 
> Aselsan is integrating all national cockpit instruments, AESA radar, mission computers and electronic warfare systems into one test-bed F16 platform to establish a new block which is competitive to Block-70 standards...
> 
> F-16 Özgür upgrade - Cockpit section
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 Block30 Glass cockpit solution
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Electronic warfare field, Various type of ELINT/SGINT/COMINT/IMINT sensors/antennas have been revealed for different missions and integrated on many land vehicles. One of the biggest challenging have been carried out with Koral Radar Electronic Support/Electronic Attack Vehicle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Navy using Ares family electronic support/attack (Ares-N/S) family. Ares family has been used by Navy for a long time and They are proven systems that actively used on many platforms including submarines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For Air-Soj- SIGINT/ Stand of Jammer Aircraft, Global5000 will be the base aircraft that Aselsan electronic warfare sensors will be integrated and total 4 AirSoj will be delivered to TurAF. Air-Soj with AESA antenna structure is the last step(I think) a state can reach in this field and, As far as I know there are just a few state in West which has developed/produced such a complicated electronic warfare aircraft and I believe Turkey will be another country which succeeded to reveal it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other electronic warfare aircraft project Aselsan develops, is the ESM/ELINT, IMINT(SAR/GMTI, EO/IR), COMINT aircraft called Multi-INT. The base aircraft to be used will be Bombardier Global Express 5000 or GulfStream G550.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anka-I with ELINT/COMINT sensors are delivered to Turkish intelligence agency last year. Introducing the voice record of Saudi murderers who killed Jamal Kashoggi is an open indication to introduce the capabilities of Turkish electronic intelligence industry...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In addition to those projects, Aselsan/Tubitak team is developing a new electronic warfare pod called "MEHPOD" based on Solid state power amplifier and AESA technology which convert F16 like fighters into a platform which is able to perform active self protection, target detection, tracking, jammer aircrafts. We expect to see the prototypes in IDEF 2019 to be held in the end of April.
> View attachment 531346
> 
> 
> I just needed to summarize Turkey's electronic warfare solutions, ongoing projects and solutions which might be beneficial as a base to Pakistani F16 upgrade solutions.





That’s why is said joint work with Turkey will help Pakistan to make more batter fighter jets

TF-x program of turkey is the part of independent defense policy this air superiority jet will enhance the power of TAF and will be a good choice for Pakistan Air force too. Turkey is going to replace F-16 with TF-x and Pakistan can buy those F-16 to increase F-16 fleet after 2023 Pakistan will have many option to modernize PAF

1-Turkish F-16. (Modified with Turkish avionic system)

2-TF-x.

3-J20 china

4-su35 Russia

5-JF-17 Pakistan

In the meantime, many other jet will also join the sky club.

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## Maxpane



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## Readerdefence

Hi any senior Member of any Turkish memeber can answer my following points 
1 with Turkish developing AESA for f16 or any other PODs or sensors will USA allow them to fiddle 
With f16s 
2 If they allow aselsan or any other Turkish firm to integrate these innovations Turkey has to 
Give any kind of royalty or kind of any other incentives to American firms 
3 Another most important Q is will USA allow Turkish firms to integrate these upgrades to other 
F16s in the world specially PAF 
@araz @denel @cabatli_53 
Thank you

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## Maxpane



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## Sine Nomine

denel said:


> It was here at Armscor where the first Helmet mounted sights were put together and were in both M3 and F1s to engage


S.A was really advance in some fields but you did gave up everything.No new such system from denel.


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## denel

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> S.A was really advance in some fields but you did gave up everything.No new such system from denel.


some e.g. aircraft but not everything. we are still continuing to work; your subs upgrades by Turkey are having a core components outsourced from here.

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## Sine Nomine

denel said:


> some e.g. aircraft but not everything. we are still continuing to work; your subs upgrades by Turkey are having a core components outsourced from here.


Good to know that,i am big fan of working with S.A.

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## denel

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> Good to know that,i am big fan of working with S.A.


no worries, there were many sensors that also made it to one of the Paksat from Somerset division

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## Maxpane



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## Armchair

Ghazwa1 said:


> Well you realize you've just contradicted yourself there. There is no point in me responding to insults, so I will leave at just that, since I don't usually react to incoherent ramble. Good day to you.



Ghazwa - brilliant posts. What you are saying is actually true. It doesn’t matter If SA did get the HMS first - the Soviets beat the US hands down on HMS and HOBS by a decade or more. 

So, if we allow our egos to settle down and ignore the semantics, the soviets did have the lead on countless technologies and Russia still has the lead on some. 

We shouldn’t be overawed with the US, a common trait due to the colonial legacy. 

A detail - Germans developed new WVR missiles after seeing what the MiG-29s had and the Western world followed. Don’t know why they didn’t learn from SA, maybe due to SA’s isolation.

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## denel

Armchair said:


> Ghazwa - brilliant posts. What you are saying is actually true. It doesn’t matter If SA did get the HMS first - the Soviets beat the US hands down on HMS and HOBS by a decade or more.
> 
> So, if we allow our egos to settle down and ignore the semantics, the soviets did have the lead on countless technologies and Russia still has the lead on some.
> 
> We shouldn’t be overawed with the US, a common trait due to the colonial legacy.
> 
> A detail - Germans developed new WVR missiles after seeing what the MiG-29s had and the Western world followed. Don’t know why they didn’t learn from SA, maybe due to SA’s isolation.


Same rational; why did the west or soviets not learn from us when we started to field mine proof vehicles from mid80s onwards; only in the 2nd 2005; they woke up because casualty rates in the golrified junks called Humvees etc was peaking at 12/day. This is not the only 2 cases, similarly for comms - it was not until mid 2000 they woke up and gave merit for hopping which we had in the field since the 60s - soviets tried and did a rudimentary work on it. many many more.... most laughable is the advanced muzzle brakes being tested now only by the US.. really it was in the G5/G6s starting in late 70s!

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## Nasr

Armchair said:


> Ghazwa - brilliant posts. What you are saying is actually true. It doesn’t matter If SA did get the HMS first - the Soviets beat the US hands down on HMS and HOBS by a decade or more.
> 
> So, if we allow our egos to settle down and ignore the semantics, the soviets did have the lead on countless technologies and Russia still has the lead on some.
> 
> We shouldn’t be overawed with the US, a common trait due to the colonial legacy.
> 
> A detail - Germans developed new WVR missiles after seeing what the MiG-29s had and the Western world followed. Don’t know why they didn’t learn from SA, maybe due to SA’s isolation.



Yes well we need to step out of the mentality that Western tech is the "end all, be all, cure all," of the world ... it's not! Countries seeking to modernize their military should go about with the strategy that neutralizes any susceptibility to Western sanctions. Best course is to go into joint ventures with non-Western countries. Russians and Chinese have proven to have the ability in surpassing or matching Western tech. And also, it's not just the military hardware that counts, it's also the training and ethos of the pilots, soldiers and sailors. PAF pilots proved that during the Arab-Israeli wars.



denel said:


> Same rational; why did the west or soviets not learn from us when we started to field mine proof vehicles from mid80s onwards; only in the 2nd 2005; they woke up because casualty rates in the golrified junks called Humvees etc was peaking at 12/day. This is not the only 2 cases, similarly for comms - it was not until mid 2000 they woke up and gave merit for hopping which we had in the field since the 60s - soviets tried and did a rudimentary work on it. many many more.... most laughable is the advanced muzzle brakes being tested now only by the US.. really it was in the G5/G6s starting in late 70s!


 
Yes and that's what perplexed me when PAF was buying Mirages from various countries. They could have had joint venture with South Africa not just with regards to Mirages, but also BVR/WVR missiles and etc. 

It all boils down to reliable partners and so far for Pakistan, China has proven to be a lasting partner in all respects. Pakistan should be building on that and exploring new partner ventures with the likes of Russia and South Africa. Use the JF-17 Thunder template and explore ways forward with other countries (including China & Russia) to have similar success.

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## Windjammer

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> Ghazwa - brilliant posts. What you are saying is actually true. It doesn’t matter If SA did get the HMS first - the Soviets beat the US hands down on HMS and HOBS by a decade or more.
> We shouldn’t be overawed with the US, a common trait due to the colonial legacy.



Hi,

That was not an intelligent comment---.

The USAF has its own direction and assessment of weapons and weapons systems---.

The change is never a knee jerk reaction---old and trusted techniques are prefered---. Change is not made just for the sake of change---.

Russians have gained nothing over the usaf due to their hobs---if you have any combat examples---I would like to read them.

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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/



thats shahbaz below!


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## Armchair

There are some really nice accounts if you look around on the internet - particularly those after East and West Germany reunited they were shocked when they evaluated the MiG-29s



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That was not an intelligent comment---.
> 
> The USAF has its own direction and assessment of weapons and weapons systems---.
> 
> The change is never a knee jerk reaction---old and trusted techniques are prefered---. Change is not made just for the sake of change---.
> 
> Russians have gained nothing over the usaf due to their hobs---if you have any combat examples---I would like to read them.


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## Windjammer

__ https://www.facebook.com/






truthseeker2010 said:


> thats shahbaz below!



Yes and the place looks huge, notice how long the F-16s are flying over the area.


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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and the place looks huge, notice how long the F-16s are flying over the area.


Final join up prior to landing.



truthseeker2010 said:


> thats shahbaz below!


One of the most hated areas for newcomers posted there....


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## Trailer23

The uploader clearly has poor taste in music...(sorry to say).

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## Cuirassier

Still waiting for ADF upgrade to MLU, if we can't get subsidized newer ones, at least upgrade the old lot! 

Alas, our poor diplomacy and utterly sh*te image has stalled so many key defence deals. Foreign Service twats only give CSS for power and no one gives a damn about serving. Cameron Munter was so on point when he said that our civil institutions are cra*, which is supposed to be the backbone. As a result everything is fauj ka bauj, and mA their PR is nothing but stupid songs for the maraasi awaam. But I don't expect that from them, not their job. 

We seriously need to arrange a proper Trump-Khan meeting and settle things, or else so much is going down the drain as we waste our time in cussing the opposition and sending rivals into jail.

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## cloud4000

TF141 said:


> We seriously need to arrange a proper Trump-Khan meeting and settle things, or else so much is going down the drain as we waste our time in cussing the opposition and sending rivals into jail.



Pak-US relations will change for the better once the issue of Afghanistan is settled. Then things go beyond the usual national security and counter-terrorism mindset and into a more normal relations like trade.

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## Cuirassier

cloud4000 said:


> Pak-US relations will change for the better once the issue of Afghanistan is settled. Then things go beyond the usual national security and counter-terrorism mindset and into a more normal relations like trade.


Exactly, we have a conflict of interests there. Same case b/w Turks and US in Syria. US involvements always end up souring relations with capable allies. 
Govt thinks we can overcome the gap by Chinese stuff, not true.


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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> There are some really nice accounts if you look around on the internet - particularly those after East and West Germany reunited they were shocked when they evaluated the MiG-29s



Hi,

You are not listening to what I am saying---. You keep pushing your belief about americans that is not correct---.

Americans are never shocked---they are bemused---. Then they will go look to combat the situation where they come out ahead---.

Some losses don't mean much to the US military---. Until and unless some really superior power emerges that has weapons in all categories to take on the US military---then the US military will be really really concerned---..

I have read about the Mig29 off bore sight capability a long time ago---. If the americans were truly concerned about it---they would have made the change right away---.

Just as according to Denel---they upgraded their vehicles to south african standards against ied's---.

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## CriticalThought

Knuckles said:


> One of the most hated areas for newcomers posted there....



Why so? Because of the heat?


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## Cuirassier

Are our 13 F16 ADF/OCU fighters armed with AIM-120s? Considering that we only have 500 of these missiles it doesn't look like No.19 operates them.


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## ZedZeeshan

TF141 said:


> Are our 13 F16 ADF/OCU fighters armed with AIM-120s? Considering that we only have 500 of these missiles it doesn't look like No.19 operates them.


500 is not a small number..

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## Tank131

cloud4000 said:


> Pak-US relations will change for the better once the issue of Afghanistan is settled. Then things go beyond the usual national security and counter-terrorism mindset and into a more normal relations like trade.



It is unlikely to get better post-Afghanistan. It is more likely history will repeat itself and you will have severe military sanctions or restrictions on Pakistan (unlikely to have economic sanctions unless there are major pressures the US wants to exert). It is more likely whem the last US Troops leave Afghanistan, the last military dealings will also take place and economic interests will be whatever they are. There is a lot of myopia in the congress regarding Pakistan and its role in the region and world and that has to do with a failure of a strong political action committee and poor representation of the relatively wealthy Pakistani diaspora within civil society. Basically the Pakistani community in the US (which is fairly wealthy by most respects) is not involved to a great degree in politics and policy making. That is slowly changing as is congress' Shortsightedness but time will tell.

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## mingle

US blocked isreali F16 sales to Croatia and now offers them New F16 blk 70.
I believe they will eventually offer F16 blk 70 or V upgrade to Pak again just watch. It's business after all
I read at Alan warnes twitter account he said that American has this business practice if u buy our used products who will buy New ones then.

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## Beethoven

mingle said:


> US blocked isreali F16 sales to Croatia and now offers them New F16 blk 70.
> I believe they will eventually offer F16 blk 70 or V upgrade to Pak again just watch. It's business after all
> I read at Alan warnes twitter account he said that American has this business practice if u buy our used products who will buy New ones then.


I think the Americans will realise the fact that if they dont provide us the requisite technology Pakistan.will be able.to source it out from some place else(read China)
since it has become clear that we will be having most of the goodies that block 70 has in the form of block 3 it is just a matter of time before they offer us the same

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## Cuirassier

Tank131 said:


> It is unlikely to get better post-Afghanistan. It is more likely history will repeat itself and you will have severe military sanctions or restrictions on Pakistan (unlikely to have economic sanctions unless there are major pressures the US wants to exert). It is more likely whem the last US Troops leave Afghanistan, the last military dealings will also take place and economic interests will be whatever they are. There is a lot of myopia in the congress regarding Pakistan and its role in the region and world and that has to do with a failure of a strong political action committee and poor representation of the relatively wealthy Pakistani diaspora within civil society. Basically the Pakistani community in the US (which is fairly wealthy by most respects) is not involved to a great degree in politics and policy making. That is slowly changing as is congress' Shortsightedness but time will tell.


Wealthy Pakistanis are busy in charsain and nasha


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## Tank131

TF141 said:


> Wealthy Pakistanis are busy in charsain and nasha


Thats not entirely true. Wealthy American Pakistani come in every variety from liberal alcoholics to religiously conservative. There are more in the latter group. The big difference between the US diaspora and that of say Canada or Europe is it is kore highly educated and faces much less racism in the US (So more opportunities) but is relatively newer. Whereas many in Europe are 3 or 4th gen we have only seen 2-3 gens in US. That being said with a newer community they are more worried about establishing their community and families socially, educationally, and economically. But we are starting to see more and more becoming involved in arts, social activisim and civil society it just will take time. Their is a strong distrust of Pakistani politicians in the diaspora so the link between the GoP and the US diaspora is weak which is a failure on both parts but most of that blame is on GoP for not culticating those ties. That money and financial influence could be used to leverage better relations between US and Pak governments.

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## ziaulislam

Beethoven said:


> I think the Americans will realise the fact that if they dont provide us the requisite technology Pakistan.will be able.to source it out from some place else(read China)
> since it has become clear that we will be having most of the goodies that block 70 has in the form of block 3 it is just a matter of time before they offer us the same


Issue is cost..i sure they will offer you at inflated prices


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## MastanKhan

Beethoven said:


> I think the Americans will realise the fact that if they dont provide us the requisite technology Pakistan.will be able.to source it out from some place else(read China)
> since it has become clear that we will be having most of the goodies that block 70 has in the form of block 3 it is just a matter of time before they offer us the same



Hi,

US is done with Pakistan----.


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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> US is done with Pakistan----.


Hey,

They are not. 

Cheers !!!

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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> Hey,
> 
> They are not.
> 
> Cheers !!!



Okay---if you say so---. If exxon hits oil---things will change---.

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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Okay---if you say so---. If exxon hits oil---things will change---.



Why are they looking for oil if they are done with Pakistan ...??


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## litman

it is better for pak that "US is done with pak". it will be a blessing in disguise. will greatly help pak in long run. we may induct any other air craft beside F-16 in future.

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## ZedZeeshan

litman said:


> it is better for pak that "US is done with pak". it will be a blessing in disguise. will greatly help pak in long run. we may induct any other air craft beside F-16 in future.


US is not done with us and will never be..

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## araz

Knuckles said:


> Hey,
> 
> They are not.
> 
> Cheers !!!


US political dynamics and our expectations are the problem. US has a typical business minded approach and everything they do is related to advancing their interests in a region. Even at the best of times for Paklands they have not done much to aggravate India because they are a much bigger market.
Our understanding of these dynamics rather than their attitude is a problem. There is no need to go and sit in their lap but at the same time there is no need to break off ties as well. We need to advance our interests by the usual means of wining dining and projection of Pak policies and see how our mutually beneficial interests can be furthered.
A

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## Tank131

The US will never be done with Pakistan. It will however temper its interactions to its own interests which do include business. If Pakistans economy grows they are a 200+ million person market afterall. It will also depend on how much India is willing to play a foil to China and Russia. From the looks of it thus far, it isnt as gung-ho as the IS may have liked.

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## mingle

Tank131 said:


> The US will never be done with Pakistan. It will however temper its interactions to its own interests which do include business. If Pakistans economy grows they are a 200+ million person market afterall. It will also depend on how much India is willing to play a foil to China and Russia. From the looks of it thus far, it isnt as gung-ho as the IS may have liked.


Pak needs to create its own economy to make lucrative for investors its 5th largest papulated country in the world can't be neglected

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## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> Why are they looking for oil if they are done with Pakistan ...??



Hi,

Exxon is a US company but it is not owned by the US govt---.


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## Ghessan

US is done with Pakistan, as they seek no heed hence do not concern. 
they always maintain influence in a particular region with a political push. 
addresses if they seek some other power talking influence challenging their hegemony in a region. 
interests have been sometime directly due to a war which itself (a political resolution not workable) is to impose a bigger/wider agenda. 
Alliances always have worked for their good. 
having none of above, Afghan resolve efforts and looking into future, CPEC can only be of interest to US which they will be observing for any benefit IF they can bring out, else they have India to promote their say in the region.


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## araz

Tank131 said:


> The US will never be done with Pakistan. It will however temper its interactions to its own interests which do include business. If Pakistans economy grows they are a 200+ million person market afterall. It will also depend on how much India is willing to play a foil to China and Russia. From the looks of it thus far, it isnt as gung-ho as the IS may have liked.


I think the Indian polity is far too savvy to play to the US tunes. They will exploit their potential to pander to US fancies but when it comes to true support the USS will always find them lacking. Current US emphasis is on preventing Sino Russian access to the warm Arabian sea, which will give them all weather access. Indian interests coincide as it competes with China in retaining its position in SE Asia as well as improving its market access and share. SO this dynamics will let them toe US lines for some time but they will never go against Indian interests. If the axis of trade via the Chinese BRTroutes increases significantly and Russia and Russian influenced Asian countries start connecting with this, I would not be surprised if India alaso makes overtures of peace and joins the success brigade.
For the first time in the 70 yrs of Pak history we have people looking after Paklands interests so let us see how we deal with those overtures when the do come along. I am all for barter trade to be established at controlled points at the Indo Pak border allowing both parties to exchange goods on a barter basis. The system is old but would in my humble opinion help both countries and allow trade to be established , people to people contacts to increase and mutual trust to be established. It is no longer in Indo Pak interests to fight but to increase harmony and learn to live in peace with each other.
A



Ghessan said:


> US is done with Pakistan, as they seek no heed hence do not concern.
> they always maintain influence in a particular region with a political push.
> addresses if they seek some other power talking influence challenging their hegemony in a region.
> interests have been sometime directly due to a war which itself (a political resolution not workable) is to impose a bigger/wider agenda.
> Alliances always have worked for their good.
> having none of above, Afghan resolve efforts and looking into future, CPEC can only be of interest to US which they will be observing for any benefit IF they can bring out, else they have India to promote their say in the region.


The US is not done and will never be done with Pakistan. as I said the dynamics of the relattionship will change but for *better or worse *US is certainly not done with Pakistan. Pakistan is integral to US interests in the SE asian countries.
A

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## Raider 21



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## cabatli_53



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## cabatli_53

Vise chairmen of SSB, Mustafa Şeker told that SSB invites Pakistan, Azerbaijan and Qatar for Airborne AESA radar development program of Turkiye.

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## xbat

cabatli_53 said:


> Vise chairmen of SSB, Mustafa Şeker told that SSB invites Pakistan, Azerbaijan and Qatar for Airborne AESA radar development program of Turkiye.


but development is almost finished, IMO they are at testing phase.


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## Maxpane



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## Raider 21



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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

cabatli_53 said:


> Vise chairmen of SSB, Mustafa Şeker told that SSB invites Pakistan, Azerbaijan and Qatar for Airborne AESA radar development program of Turkiye.


Is it possible to get a link bro?

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## eagleeye

Here is something on twitter. I don t know it is reliable or not. Turkey is offering AESA radar to the 3 countrys


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087310189219459072

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## cabatli_53

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Is it possible to get a link bro?




Original source is Rashad from azeridefence.com which is a reliable source. 

http://az.azeridefence.com/ssb-sedr...la-sursat-idxalina-dair-muqavile-imzalamisiq/


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1087009154609369093

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## Maxpane



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## Trailer23

Yo @Maxpane...
I don't know how you're able to get some of these amazing images of the PAF. You outta start up your own Thread dedicated to the images (only) you can upload - and us to see.


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## Maxpane

Trailer23 said:


> Yo @Maxpane...
> I don't know how you're able to get some of these amazing images of the PAF. You outta start up your own Thread dedicated to the images (only) you can upload - and us to see.


my fav pic

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## Silicon0000

Turkish AESA could be a good fit for PAF F16s. Well I guess Uncle ..... won't interfere in it.

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## Quwa

Silicon0000 said:


> Turkish AESA could be a good fit for PAF F16s. Well I guess Uncle ..... won't interfere in it.


The US will have something to say about it. Best case scenario, the US would prefer that US companies get the subsystem contracts for any Pakistani F-16 upgrade, assuming even that comes to pass...

That said, the Turkish AESA project could be interesting for Project Azm and future JF-17 variants.

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## mingle

Quwa said:


> The US will have something to say about it. Best case scenario, the US would prefer that US companies get the subsystem contracts for any Pakistani F-16 upgrade, assuming even that comes to pass...
> 
> That said, the Turkish AESA project could be interesting for Project Azm and future JF-17 variants.


SABR AESA by Grumans

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## xbat

is that radar cone on JF-17 same size with f-16? can f16 radar fit into that aircraft without modification?


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## Trailer23



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## denel

Quwa said:


> The US will have something to say about it. Best case scenario, the US would prefer that US companies get the subsystem contracts for any Pakistani F-16 upgrade, assuming even that comes to pass...
> 
> That said, the Turkish AESA project could be interesting for Project Azm and future JF-17 variants.


That is exactly correct; there is no reason why you cannot pursue your own path;

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## musaji

chetan_chpd said:


> hello guys, is there any active thread for PAF modelling (scale models of aircraft)?
> if yes then please provide link, i will move below post to that thread...
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I had this made in china toy of F-16. I thought of coloring it into a new look...
> 
> please visit for more...https://www.chetansindiaspaceflight.com/2019/01/my-airspace-craft-rocket-model_21.html
> 
> (old look)
> View attachment 535639
> View attachment 535640
> 
> 
> (new look)
> View attachment 535637
> View attachment 535638


Looks good. Great job!


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## Tank131

Quwa said:


> The US will have something to say about it. Best case scenario, the US would prefer that US companies get the subsystem contracts for any Pakistani F-16 upgrade, assuming even that comes to pass...
> 
> That said, the Turkish AESA project could be interesting for Project Azm and future JF-17 variants.


A great point. The simple fact is that to rapidly progress its economy and manufacturing (especially defense manufacturing) Pakistan needs a fast injection of knowhow and technology. That needs to occur on two fronts.

1. Buying IP rights to tech or platforms or ToT (example, Turkey acquiring mangusta IP amd developimg Atak or Pakistan buying MILGEM IP to, in the future, develop Jinnah). The IP and/or complete ToT should be bouggt with every acquisition, including subsystems and components, with in-house manufacturing and support facilities set up by GoP and the source provider. Joint ventures to be done in variety of fields including aeronautics, propulsion, metallurgy, and engineering.

2. Send people out to other countries for advanced degrees (Medical residency, PhD, MS, Etc) on Govt. Dime with contracts ready to return to work in Pakistan on completion of training/education (clause for those who refuse to return to fulfill their obligations that they will need to repay the debt of their training/education in full and with penalty or risk govt seizing assets to cover debt).

The Gulf countries do this and have agreements with many top tier university medical centers to train their new grad physicians (ie do their residency in the US with X number of spots reserved for their citizens with the salaries paid for by their home country).

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## MIRauf

On point 2: Aren't students being sent to China for Post Graduate degrees ?


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## ziaulislam

Silicon0000 said:


> Turkish AESA could be a good fit for PAF F16s. Well I guess Uncle ..... won't interfere in it.


Its almost certain it will not allow it..unless we pulloff a deplomatic victory


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## Tank131

MIRauf said:


> On point 2: Aren't students being sent to China for Post Graduate degrees ?



While that is good, you need to send them to other countries as well, especially countries where innovation occurs (USA, UK, Germany, Japan, France, Russia, South Korea, Canada, etc). The development of the thought process is as important as the facts you learn. China has a strong history of assimilating tech and then developing on it. But creating from scratch is still in its infancy there, although with all things China, I expect it to grow rapidly.

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## Beethoven

MIRauf said:


> On point 2: Aren't students being sent to China for Post Graduate degrees ?


Dont.want to derail this thread or anything but remember no matter which country you send students for their MS or PhD unless and until you provide them with the facilities required here those degrees will be completely useless...

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## Armchair

A turkish AESA on Azm would certainly change the equation to a great extent.


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## ziaulislam



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## Imran Khan

ziaulislam said:


>


PAF is more shameless then it requires


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## GriffinsRule

Perfect time to order more F-16s once it becomes clear that India is not going to ... they would be running out of orders anyways once the token block 70 sales to Bahrain are done.

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## mingle

GriffinsRule said:


> Perfect time to order more F-16s once it becomes clear that India is not going to ... they would be running out of orders anyways once the token block 70 sales to Bahrain are done.


That what I think to get used surplus F16s we need to buy new F16 s as well.Americans wants to keep theior F16s line hott beacuse its theior hott sell product. India not gonna buy F16s I don't think so for pak with new F16 mix with v upgrades would be great Under Trump it won't be a problem

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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16A-ADF-Fighting-Falcon/1610

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

MastanKhan said:


> Okay---if you say so---. If exxon hits oil---things will change---.


Amin...


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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> That what I think to get used surplus F16s we need to buy new F16 s as well.Americans wants to keep theior F16s line hott beacuse its theior hott sell product. India not gonna buy F16s I don't think so for pak with new F16 mix with v upgrades would be great Under Trump it won't be a problem


it will be hard sell to sell 100m dollars f16 when f35 is chunning at the same cost now

Especially if this f16 comes with so many restrictions ..no antiship missles, no cruise missles, no SEAD missles, no refuelers, no aim9x and no aim120D

I mean its better to pay 150m instead of 100m and buy typhoon/rafale instead of new f16s or buy steath fighters from china..

This is probably why PAF backed out of 8f16s

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> it will be hard sell to sell 100m dollars f16 when f35 is chunning at the same cost now
> 
> Especially if this f16 comes with so many restrictions ..no antiship missles, no cruise missles, no SEAD missles, no refuelers, no aim9x and no aim120D
> 
> I mean its better to pay 150m instead of 100m and buy typhoon/rafale instead of new f16s or buy steath fighters from china..
> 
> This is probably why PAF backed out of 8f16s


You got a point make sense ok F35 is not a good dog fighter has a lot critic if Pak has money then can go EF or F15 even isreal buying more F15 nor happy with F35 though getting free who cares.


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## Nasr

mingle said:


> You got a point make sense ok F35 is not a good dog fighter has a lot critic if Pak has money then can go EF or F15 even isreal buying more F15 nor happy with F35 though getting free who cares.



Eurofighter is essentially an "Air Superiority," for now. They are still working on Eurofighter becoming a true multi-role fighter. Last I read about this development was they had integrated Paveway Bombs to be launched from Eurofighters. Being truly multi-role, would mean Eurofighters have ALCM, JDAM, HARM and ASW. 

Besides not being truly multi-role (for now), the Eurofighter is very expensive $100 million a pop. Not counting weapons, support systems, training aids and logistical stock. (40) Eurofighters would cost Pakistan $5-6 billion easily. If it is a platform other than F-16s or JF-17s that Pakistan Air Force wants, then for $5 billion Pakistan Air Force can get (50) Su-35 Flanker-Es. Which is far better procurement than Eurofighters, since the latter WILL BE liability due to sanctions.

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## ziaulislam

Nasr said:


> Eurofighter is essentially an "Air Superiority," for now. They are still working on Eurofighter becoming a true multi-role fighter. Last I read about this development was they had integrated Paveway Bombs to be launched from Eurofighters. Being truly multi-role, would mean Eurofighters have ALCM, JDAM, HARM and ASW.
> 
> Besides not being truly multi-role (for now), the Eurofighter is very expensive $100 million a pop. Not counting weapons, support systems, training aids and logistical stock. (40) Eurofighters would cost Pakistan $5-6 billion easily. If it is a platform other than F-16s or JF-17s that Pakistan Air Force wants, then for $5 billion Pakistan Air Force can get (50) Su-35 Flanker-Es. Which is far better procurement than Eurofighters, since the latter WILL BE liability due to sanctions.


typhoon trench 3 is multirole while trench 1 update 3 have made them multirole as well

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## mingle

Nasr said:


> Eurofighter is essentially an "Air Superiority," for now. They are still working on Eurofighter becoming a true multi-role fighter. Last I read about this development was they had integrated Paveway Bombs to be launched from Eurofighters. Being truly multi-role, would mean Eurofighters have ALCM, JDAM, HARM and ASW.
> 
> Besides not being truly multi-role (for now), the Eurofighter is very expensive $100 million a pop. Not counting weapons, support systems, training aids and logistical stock. (40) Eurofighters would cost Pakistan $5-6 billion easily. If it is a platform other than F-16s or JF-17s that Pakistan Air Force wants, then for $5 billion Pakistan Air Force can get (50) Su-35 Flanker-Es. Which is far better procurement than Eurofighters, since the latter WILL BE liability due to sanctions.


Su family tried and tested by PAF both 27 and 35 rejected by PAF according to Ahmed tipu on twitter.
J10 or F16 if we hand we can have F15 eagles both new and old in stocks.


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## Nasr

mingle said:


> Su family tried and tested by PAF both 27 and 35 rejected by PAF according to Ahmed tipu on twitter.
> J10 or F16 if we hand we can have F15 eagles both new and old in stocks.



Are you telling me that Pakistan Air Force has tried and tested the Su-35 Flanker-E? I do not this is possible as the Su-35s are brand new, they are very different a far more advance in capabilities to the Su-27s or Su-30s.

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## mingle

Nasr said:


> Are you telling me that Pakistan Air Force has tried and tested the Su-35 Flanker-E? I do not this is possible as the Su-35s are brand new, they are very different a far more advance in capabilities to the Su-27s or Su-30s.


That's what I read on twitter by Ahmed tipu guy is pretty real deal these r his words .


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## Nasr

mingle said:


> Su family tried and tested by PAF both 27 and 35 rejected by PAF according to Ahmed tipu on twitter.
> J10 or F16 if we hand we can have F15 eagles both new and old in stocks.



The Su-27/SM3 is known to be more than a match for the F-15s, as demonstrated during various intercepts performed by the Su-27/SM3 of USAF J-STARS, Aries-llls and Posiedons. Where F-15s were sent in to support their surveillance aircraft. The SM3s gave the F-15s a run for their money on several encounters. The Su-35s have also proven themselves to be distinctly superior to the F-15Cs, which became very evident in Syria. Heck the americans even brought their F-22s to Syria, dunno whether it was due to the Su-35s spanking those F-15s all over the Syrian sky. But what we do know is the USAF deployed Raptors after several Su-35 encounters with F-15s. The Russian of course responded in kind, when they deployed Stealth Fighters of their own (b/w 2-4) Su-57s prototype aircraft, in Syria. So I doubt that Pakistan Air Force could've rejected the Su-35s. It could be that the Russians didn't want those indiots wet their dhotis upon hearing the news of Su-35 sale to Pakistan. They are tracking the indians to gauge which way they will swing. I doubt the indians can dance around much longer. As the Russians will be deciding on them pretty soon. I still do think Su-35s are the best choice for Pakistan Air Force.


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## The Accountant

Nasr said:


> The Su-27/SM3 is known to be more than a match for the F-15s, as demonstrated during various intercepts performed by the Su-27/SM3 of USAF J-STARS, Aries-llls and Posiedons. Where F-15s were sent in to support their surveillance aircraft. The SM3s gave the F-15s a run for their money on several encounters. The Su-35s have also proven themselves to be distinctly superior to the F-15Cs, which became very evident in Syria. Heck the americans even brought their F-22s to Syria, dunno whether it was due to the Su-35s spanking those F-15s all over the Syrian sky. But what we do know is the USAF deployed Raptors after several Su-35 encounters with F-15s. The Russian of course responded in kind, when they deployed Stealth Fighters of their own (b/w 2-4) Su-57s prototype aircraft, in Syria. So I doubt that Pakistan Air Force could've rejected the Su-35s. It could be that the Russians didn't want those indiots wet their dhotis upon hearing the news of Su-35 sale to Pakistan. They are tracking the indians to gauge which way they will swing. I doubt the indians can dance around much longer. As the Russians will be deciding on them pretty soon. I still do think Su-35s are the best choice for Pakistan Air Force.


Su35 overpowering f15 is a myth ... at best both aircrafts must have their day ...

However its logical that even if there is a chance of 20% probablity that su35 will win against f15 i.e. 1 out of 5 battle USA will bring f22 to keep the air superiroity intact ...

This is the rule of the game and logical choice ... why to put asset and pilot at risk even if you have 80% chance of winning when it can be increased upto 99%


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## Nasr

The Accountant said:


> Su-35 overpowering F-15 is a myth.



The myth is that Pentagon wouldn't admit to it even if their life depended on it. The Su-35s have engaged the F-15s over the Southern Syrian area of At-Tanf. The only ISIS pocket closest to Damascus, 250km distance. The american air force has been covering this area in particular, as when Syrian Military destroys this ISIS pocket. Then Syria will have full control over its entire Jordanian-Iraqi border, all the up till Abu Kamal, where River Euphrates cuts through the Syrian Iraqi border. 

The Su-35s won these engagements, successfully forcing the F-15s to back off. In one instance the one in the pair of Su-35 locked on the F-15, trailing for a good part of a minute. It was only due to descelatory hotline set-up between the americans and Russians, did the two disengage. 

The only myth is the americans still barking about their superiority over everyone else. The only advantage usaf has over RuAF, is numerical. Where are far more F-15s than there Su-35s. Russian Aerospace Forces are more concentrate with modernized and deadly fighters, rather than bulked out with a old junk. As time goes on, Su-35 production will ramp up. At present RuAF has less than 100 Su-35s. In time the numbers will rise to meet adequate numerical strength.


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## Raider 21

Nasr said:


> The myth is that Pentagon wouldn't admit to it even if their life depended on it. The Su-35s have engaged the F-15s over the Southern Syrian area of At-Tanf. The only ISIS pocket closest to Damascus, 250km distance. The american air force has been covering this area in particular, as when Syrian Military destroys this ISIS pocket. Then Syria will have full control over its entire Jordanian-Iraqi border, all the up till Abu Kamal, where River Euphrates cuts through the Syrian Iraqi border.
> 
> The Su-35s won these engagements, successfully forcing the F-15s to back off. In one instance the one in the pair of Su-35 locked on the F-15, trailing for a good part of a minute. It was only due to descelatory hotline set-up between the americans and Russians, did the two disengage.
> 
> The only myth is the americans still barking about their superiority over everyone else. The only advantage usaf has over RuAF, is numerical. Where are far more F-15s than there Su-35s. Russian Aerospace Forces are more concentrate with modernized and deadly fighters, rather than bulked out with a old junk. As time goes on, Su-35 production will ramp up. At present RuAF has less than 100 Su-35s. In time the numbers will rise to meet adequate numerical strength.


Where did this info come from. Sounds interesting.


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## syed_yusuf

Knuckles said:


> Where did this info come from. Sounds interesting.



SU35 is no match to f-22 and will struggle against f-35. F-15 all versions are of past generation. and we are nto sure what version of f-15 was deployed to Syria


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## The Accountant

Nasr said:


> The myth is that Pentagon wouldn't admit to it even if their life depended on it. The Su-35s have engaged the F-15s over the Southern Syrian area of At-Tanf. The only ISIS pocket closest to Damascus, 250km distance. The american air force has been covering this area in particular, as when Syrian Military destroys this ISIS pocket. Then Syria will have full control over its entire Jordanian-Iraqi border, all the up till Abu Kamal, where River Euphrates cuts through the Syrian Iraqi border.
> 
> The Su-35s won these engagements, successfully forcing the F-15s to back off. In one instance the one in the pair of Su-35 locked on the F-15, trailing for a good part of a minute. It was only due to descelatory hotline set-up between the americans and Russians, did the two disengage.
> 
> The only myth is the americans still barking about their superiority over everyone else. The only advantage usaf has over RuAF, is numerical. Where are far more F-15s than there Su-35s. Russian Aerospace Forces are more concentrate with modernized and deadly fighters, rather than bulked out with a old junk. As time goes on, Su-35 production will ramp up. At present RuAF has less than 100 Su-35s. In time the numbers will rise to meet adequate numerical strength.



Bro i am not a fan of US but undermining the strength of your enemy is stupidity ... f15 is third tier aircraft of US ... su35 is top tier aircraft of russia ... and still f15 is the most successful air superiority fighter ever ...

Anybody who thinks that currently US do not have complete supermacy in air against any other country than he is living in a dillusion ..

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## Windjammer

@Hodor, Sir i understand some sort of ceremony is taking place at Shahbaz today, any idea what's the occasion.

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## MastanKhan

Nasr said:


> The myth is that Pentagon wouldn't admit to it even if their life depended on it. The Su-35s have engaged the F-15s over the Southern Syrian area of At-Tanf. The only ISIS pocket closest to Damascus, 250km distance. The american air force has been covering this area in particular, as when Syrian Military destroys this ISIS pocket. Then Syria will have full control over its entire Jordanian-Iraqi border, all the up till Abu Kamal, where River Euphrates cuts through the Syrian Iraqi border.
> 
> The Su-35s won these engagements, successfully forcing the F-15s to back off. In one instance the one in the pair of Su-35 locked on the F-15, trailing for a good part of a minute. It was only due to descelatory hotline set-up between the americans and Russians, did the two disengage.
> 
> The only myth is the americans still barking about their superiority over everyone else. The only advantage usaf has over RuAF, is numerical. Where are far more F-15s than there Su-35s. Russian Aerospace Forces are more concentrate with modernized and deadly fighters, rather than bulked out with a old junk. As time goes on, Su-35 production will ramp up. At present RuAF has less than 100 Su-35s. In time the numbers will rise to meet adequate numerical strength.



Hi,

It is good to learn know and understand why the americans do things the way hey do---.

The americans would never show their hands in a push show and strut match---. If you did not know that by now---then that is a disappointment---and it show that like many a pakistani young men---you may also be a victim of a lack of learning ability---.

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## Thorough Pro

Tranche: a portion of something (normally money)
Trench: a long narrow ditch



ziaulislam said:


> typhoon trench 3 is multirole while trench 1 update 3 have made them multirole as well

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Thorough Pro said:


> Tranche: a portion of something (normally money)
> Trench: a long narrow ditch


In Pakistan's case, both can apply ... the money and the ditch.


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## Path-Finder

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1095028440753991680

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## Windjammer

@Hodor @Oscar @Knuckles @Irfan Baloch

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## hassan1

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 538850
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 538851
> 
> 
> @Hodor @Oscar @Knuckles @Irfan Baloch


 meri pic.......

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## Windjammer

hassan1 said:


> meri pic.......


No, shared by an airman's friend.

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## hassan1

Windjammer said:


> No, shared by an airman's friend.


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## Irfan Baloch

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 538850
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 538851
> 
> 
> @Hodor @Oscar @Knuckles @Irfan Baloch


are they size of coin or bigger?

thanks for sharing



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It is good to learn know and understand why the americans do things the way hey do---.
> 
> The americans would never show their hands in a push show and strut match---. If you did not know that by now---then that is a disappointment---and it show that like many a pakistani young men---you may also be a victim of a lack of learning ability---.


and I class my self above average and I had to read 2 times to get it


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## hassan1

Irfan Baloch said:


> are they size of coin or bigger?



coin size


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## ziaulislam

Thorough Pro said:


> Tranche: a portion of something (normally money)
> Trench: a long narrow ditch


Autocorrect


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## Falgrine

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 538015
> 
> 
> @Hodor, Sir i understand some sort of ceremony is taking place at Shahbaz today, any idea what's the occasion.


ORI team visiting Shahbaz AFB.


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## Windjammer



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## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 539304


How do I get my hands on one of those on eBay... ?


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## Readerdefence

Trailer23 said:


> How do I get my hands on one of those on eBay... ?


Hi my friend at the moment this is available at eBay 
Thank you


----------



## Imran Khan

f-16 ko kapra mar lo or khuda da wasta awacs or tps-77 ko aaj raat on rakhna . aysa na ho wo log kam dikha jaay or tum log soty raho

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## AsifIjaz

Not only today but till the end of april...
Modi might try to pull a fast one and this time around he needs solid proof over and above the chest beating and "sir g kal" strike the last time around


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## Trailer23

https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/pa...hText=pakistan+air+force+coin&isGalleryList=G

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## Windjammer

*
A formation of F-16s pitches out as it comes in to land after a training mission.
Credit as per title,*

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## Trailer23

These might be slightly older pics, as the Griffins (No. 9) have a bit of red color on the tail now.


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## JamD

Windjammer said:


> *A formation of F-16s pitches out as it comes in to land after a training mission.
> Credit as per title,*
> 
> View attachment 539458



Notice the ACMI-NG Pod with the Pakistani Flag on it. @HRK




IDEAS Picture credit: @Zarvan

Reactions: Positive Rating Positive Rating:
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## HRK

JamD said:


> Notice the ACMI-NG Pod with the Pakistani Flag on it. @HRK
> View attachment 539546
> 
> IDEAS Picture credit: @Zarvan


so this is the confirmation of integration of Pakistani ACMI pod with F-16

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## Raider 21

HRK said:


> so this is the confirmation of integration of Pakistani ACMI pod with F-16


It has been there more recently but was always compatible. Used extensively at Red Flag and Green Flag exercises.

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## M.AsfandYar

Imran Khan said:


> f-16 ko kapra mar lo or khuda da wasta awacs or tps-77 ko aaj raat on rakhna . aysa na ho wo log kam dikha jaay or tum log soty raho


Parsoun raat ko 3 f-16 (or i think they were just saw a vivid outline, was too dark) dekhai thai, islambad main. Occasion kia thi?


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## Imran Khan

M.AsfandYar said:


> Parsoun raat ko 3 f-16 (or i think they were just saw a vivid outline, was too dark) dekhai thai, islambad main. Occasion kia thi?


mbs ko escort kerny ki practice


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## HRK

JamD said:


> Notice the ACMI-NG Pod with the Pakistani Flag on it. @HRK
> View attachment 539546
> 
> IDEAS Picture credit: @Zarvan





Knuckles said:


> It has been there more recently but was always compatible. Used extensively at Red Flag and Green Flag exercises.


but how it was made compatible with F-16 without source code to flight control computers of F-16, or some other arrangements are made .... ??

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## CriticalThought

HRK said:


> but how it was made compatible with F-16 without source code to flight control computers of F-16, or some other arrangements are made .... ??



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIL-STD-1553

Furthermore, I believe the ACMI pod is meant to transmit to base rather than interface with the rest of the F-16 system.


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## HRK

CriticalThought said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIL-STD-1553
> 
> Furthermore, I believe the ACMI pod is meant to transmit to base rather than interface with the rest of the F-16 system.


you may be right but I want to have the _general idea_ that how this pod is working with F-16 is it working as integrated system as it has to record the manoeuvres of the aircraft so it is working with flight control computers or just as stand alone system ...??


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## Maxpane

interesting news


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## Windjammer

Trailer23 said:


> These might be slightly older pics, as the Griffins (No. 9) have a bit of red color on the tail now.


Negative, that is only applied for Pakistan Day Parade last year.


----------



## Trailer23

Ahh ok, my bad.

Jeez, that is one huge *** oppo/7-up ad in the background.


----------



## Beethoven

Trailer23 said:


> Ahh ok, my bad.
> 
> Jeez, that is one huge *** oppo/7-up ad in the background.


Thats the famous Centaurus


----------



## Jaam92

What is the chance of F-21 purchase from India or What should be the strategy of Pakistan if Purchase has already confirmed.
It is bad news for PAF that its enemy has better variant of F-16. Will Pakistan go for F-21 as well and will go for any other option.


----------



## Trailer23

Mudassar Jalil said:


> What is the chance of F-21 purchase from India or What should be the strategy of Pakistan if Purchase has already confirmed.
> It is bad news for PAF that its enemy has better variant of F-16. Will Pakistan go for F-21 as well and will go for any other option.


I wouldn't give it too much thought. The only reason why the US gave it a different designation is because India does not want to have the same equipment Pakistan has mastered for decades - even if they are offered the latest version.

The US has been lobbying them the F-16/(now) F-21 and F-18 Super Hornet's for a few years now, but it'll be interesting what India settles for this time.

The Raffaele has already garnered enough bad press in India, courtesy of Congress Party.

HAL is already producing the Su-30MKi and have received another order.

SAAB and the Americans are still trying their luck.

Which leaves the Russians, front runners...


----------



## Jaam92

So in Simple words Indian might go for Euro Fighter or SU 35


----------



## Trailer23

Jaam92 said:


> So in Simple words Indian might go for Euro Fighter or SU 35


To be honest, I had forgotten the EuroFighter, because to me, its not even in the conversation - even with their 20% Discount and Transfer of Technology offer (on the table).

And the Russians are also offering the MiG-35.


----------



## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Signalian

Windjammer said:


> Negative, that is only applied for Pakistan Day Parade last year.
> 
> View attachment 539645


Whats the rule of using F-16 against indians

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## SQ8

Signalian said:


> Whats the rule of using F-16 against indians


None. No contract, nothing.
Basically the US is making piecemeal statements to satisfy the Indians.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Oscar said:


> None. No contract, nothing.
> Basically the US is making piecemeal statements to satisfy the Indians.


I wonder what the Americans want to know more, whether the PAF used the F-16s, or whether the F-16s actually knocked down a Flanker. I mean, the "right answer" for us might be to say yes, depending on who in the US asks.

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## ziaulislam

Oscar said:


> None. No contract, nothing.
> Basically the US is making piecemeal statements to satisfy the Indians.


Dont underestimate indian lobbying they might put another embargo on Pakistan ..we need strong lobbying

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## MastanKhan

Oscar said:


> None. No contract, nothing.
> Basically the US is making piecemeal statements to satisfy the Indians.



Hi,

There are bottles of corked champagne bottles sitting in the meeting room at Lockmart waiting for the corks to be popped for the confirmation of the news that the F16 took out the SU30---yessir---.

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There are bottles of corked champagne bottles sitting in the meeting room at Lockmart waiting for the corks to be popped for the confirmation of the news that the F16 took out the SU30---yessir---.


That they may be, but none so at the division working with Tata on the “F-21”.

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## Signalian

F-16 EW observations and questions.

There are 26 ECM pods, ALQ-131 for F-16's MLU. 
1. Can these be used to cover other aircrafts, since brochure mention self protection.
2. Carried on an external pylon?

There are 36 ECM Pods, AN/ALQ-211(V)9 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare system (AIDEWS) for F-16 Block 52+.
1. I am guessing its combined with DRFM capability?
2.Only 18 have been acquired since PAF has 18 aircraft of 52+ standard?
3. Used for self defence only or can cover other aircraft in vicinity?

Also, do the F-16 Block 52+ possess DRFM capability or the MLU also?

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...es-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/

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## mingle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There are bottles of corked champagne bottles sitting in the meeting room at Lockmart waiting for the corks to be popped for the confirmation of the news that the F16 took out the SU30---yessir---.


If we wise enough then use sheikhs faloos and convince LM to come Pak made in Pak F21 jet would be iceing the cake by the way Trump is mulling trade terrifs over india very soon.i think LM knows the kill

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## AMG_12

Signalian said:


> F-16 EW observations and questions.
> 
> There are 26 ECM pods, ALQ-131 for F-16's MLU.
> 1. Can these be used to cover other aircrafts, since brochure mention self protection.
> 2. Carried on an external pylon?
> 
> There are 36 ECM Pods, AN/ALQ-211(V)9 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare system (AIDEWS) for F-16 Block 52+.
> 1. I am guessing its combined with DRFM capability?
> 2.Only 18 have been acquired since PAF has 18 aircraft of 52+ standard?
> 3. Used for self defence only or can cover other aircraft in vicinity?
> 
> Also, do the F-16 Block 52+ possess DRFM capability or the MLU also?
> 
> https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...es-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/


@Quwa


----------



## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> Dont underestimate indian lobbying they might put another embargo on Pakistan ..we need strong lobbying


They need us more badly than ever so forgot about sanctions.plus it won't effect PAK can arrange sapres from different countries plus at this situation when Trump imposing tarrifs over india very soon. So no chance


----------



## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> They need us more badly than ever so forgot about sanctions.plus it won't effect PAK can arrange sapres from different countries plus at this situation when Trump imposing tarrifs over india very soon. So no chance


USA is important source of weapons, Pakistan needs the cobras used f16s and EDA stock equipment..that will be the issue, an unofficial embargo is already in place but i expect things to become available with Afghanistan withdrawal but that availability is under threat if congress steps in and pass a bill to stop the executive to give Pakistan EDA equipment..

so my point is that the expected equipment which we should get is under threat from indian lobbying

fact that republicans have executive and democrats congress doesn't help either


----------



## AMG_12

Signalian said:


> F-16 EW observations and questions.
> 
> There are 26 ECM pods, ALQ-131 for F-16's MLU.
> 1. Can these be used to cover other aircrafts, since brochure mention self protection.
> 2. Carried on an external pylon?
> 
> There are 36 ECM Pods, AN/ALQ-211(V)9 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare system (AIDEWS) for F-16 Block 52+.
> 1. I am guessing its combined with DRFM capability?
> 2.Only 18 have been acquired since PAF has 18 aircraft of 52+ standard?
> 3. Used for self defence only or can cover other aircraft in vicinity?
> 
> Also, do the F-16 Block 52+ possess DRFM capability or the MLU also?
> 
> https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...es-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/


As per the details of the contract, all ECM pods come without DRFM. Some of the more knowledgeable members may have a better explanation to this. Attached is the source for further information. 

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...es-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Signalian said:


> F-16 EW observations and questions.
> 
> There are 26 ECM pods, ALQ-131 for F-16's MLU.
> 1. Can these be used to cover other aircrafts, since brochure mention self protection.
> 2. Carried on an external pylon?
> 
> There are 36 ECM Pods, AN/ALQ-211(V)9 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare system (AIDEWS) for F-16 Block 52+.
> 1. I am guessing its combined with DRFM capability?
> 2.Only 18 have been acquired since PAF has 18 aircraft of 52+ standard?
> 3. Used for self defence only or can cover other aircraft in vicinity?
> 
> Also, do the F-16 Block 52+ possess DRFM capability or the MLU also?
> 
> https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...es-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/


IIRC the EW just jams, it doesn't necessarily mean only the aircraft using it is protected. If the radar is jammed, it's jammed. But that said, I imagine the JF-17s would have EW pods too, thereby creating a dense EW environment with the F-16s.



Game.Invade said:


> As per the details of the contract, all ECM pods come without DRFM. Some of the more knowledgeable members may have a better explanation to this. Attached is the source for further information.
> 
> https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...es-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/


According to WikiLeaks the US eventually gave the PAF DRFM. Even the JF-17's EW pod probably has DRFM.

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> USA is important source of weapons, Pakistan needs the cobras used f16s and EDA stock equipment..that will be the issue, an unofficial embargo is already in place but i expect things to become available with Afghanistan withdrawal but that availability is under threat if congress steps in and pass a bill to stop the executive to give Pakistan EDA equipment..
> 
> so my point is that the expected equipment which we should get is under threat from indian lobbying
> 
> fact that republicans have executive and democrats congress doesn't help either


Nothing will happen don't worry


----------



## Keysersoze

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IIRC the EW just jams, it doesn't necessarily mean only the aircraft using it is protected. If the radar is jammed, it's jammed. But that said, I imagine the JF-17s would have EW pods too, thereby creating a dense EW environment with the F-16s.
> 
> 
> According to WikiLeaks the US eventually gave the PAF DRFM. Even the JF-17's EW pod probably has DRFM.



The Elint platforms/pods are the key to any furture engagement especially with better platforms (Rafale) and S400 on the way.

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## CriticalThought

Signalian said:


> F-16 EW observations and questions.
> 
> There are 26 ECM pods, ALQ-131 for F-16's MLU.
> 1. Can these be used to cover other aircrafts, since brochure mention self protection.
> 2. Carried on an external pylon?
> 
> There are 36 ECM Pods, AN/ALQ-211(V)9 advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare system (AIDEWS) for F-16 Block 52+.
> 1. I am guessing its combined with DRFM capability?
> 2.Only 18 have been acquired since PAF has 18 aircraft of 52+ standard?
> 3. Used for self defence only or can cover other aircraft in vicinity?
> 
> Also, do the F-16 Block 52+ possess DRFM capability or the MLU also?
> 
> https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...es-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IIRC the EW just jams, it doesn't necessarily mean only the aircraft using it is protected. If the radar is jammed, it's jammed. But that said, I imagine the JF-17s would have EW pods too, thereby creating a dense EW environment with the F-16s.
> 
> 
> According to WikiLeaks the US eventually gave the PAF DRFM. Even the JF-17's EW pod probably has DRFM.



A 'self protection' pod sounds similar to SPECTRA. Now I don't know whether it is as advanced as SPECTRA, but if it is, it is likely just for protecting itself. A general purpose jammer would paint itself like a beacon for BVRs, which is why such aircrafts are usually twin engine, or better still, turboprops.

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## araz

mingle said:


> If we wise enough then use sheikhs faloos and convince LM to come Pak made in Pak F21 jet would be iceing the cake by the way Trump is mulling trade terrifs over india very soon.i think LM knows the kill


The idea is good but the gain out of it is going to be very costly. The price per unit may well cross 200million as infrastructure will have to be set up. The US will have reservations with re=gards to Chinese influence over Paklands so will thy hand out their tech to us? Lastly the Chinese will get pissed big time. We have told them we want J10 and now set up shop for the 16s. Frankly I think for Pakistan other than old 16s the door to furhter procurement is now closed.
My analysis so take it or leave it.
A

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## syed_yusuf

araz said:


> The idea is good but the gain out of it is going to be very costly. The price per unit may well cross 200million as infrastructure will have to be set up. The US will have reservations with re=gards to Chinese influence over Paklands so will thy hand out their tech to us? Lastly the Chinese will get pissed big time. We have told them we want J10 and now set up shop for the 16s. Frankly I think for Pakistan other than old 16s the door to furhter procurement is now closed.
> My analysis so take it or leave it.
> A



I agree, PAF need to focus on JFT blk 3 full swing ahead and project AZM

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## Ali_Baba

The Indians could not shoot down the F16, but they are trying to ground it via their American friends.

War exists at multiple locations, it is not just about shooting something down.


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## mingle

Ali_Baba said:


> The Indians could not shoot down the F16, but they are trying to ground it via their American friends.
> 
> War exists at multiple locations, it is not just about shooting something down.


Nothing will ground marks my words F16 r paid by Pak with Pak money plus pak can use them for her defence. It's propaganda like F16 shot down. If venders and Govt start play politics nobody will buy theior systems and they not cheap..



syed_yusuf said:


> I agree, PAF need to focus on JFT blk 3 full swing ahead and project AZM


If we get EF new and used would be nice as well


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## mingle

Keysersoze said:


> The Elint platforms/pods are the key to any furture engagement especially with better platforms (Rafale) and S400 on the way.


Welcome back Keysersoze my brother after long long time nice to see U again.


----------



## Manahil Khan

Pakistan Airforce Zindabad, F-16 Zindabad.


----------



## GriffinsRule

Signalian said:


> Whats the rule of using F-16 against indians


The rule is to shoot them down. That is the only rule that matters

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## OCguy

Here is his profile on a F-16 forum

http://www.f-16.net/pilots-profile2652.html

Can be seen wearing 3,000hr patch






Red Flag at :51







Great resource for info by F-16 Enthusiasts



http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=55055&start=180

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## Windjammer



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## Shahzad834

ehtas the main difference of f16s with JF-17B3 why we not produce or upgrade our JF17 to block 3 instead of more F16

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## ziaulislam

Shahzad834 said:


> ehtas the main difference of f16s with JF-17B3 why we not produce or upgrade our JF17 to block 3 instead of more F16


Payload and range f16 engine is 50% larger

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> Payload and range f16 engine is 50% larger


With Discovery of new offshore oil and gas we need to make our Airforce size big with more F16s along with JF17 blk3.Tone of Trump is very clear that it's on cards in near future we should procure Atleast 3 to 4 new F16s Sqd with rest AESA upgrades plus Anti shipping capabilities or induct one or two Sqd of F18 super Hornets along chines JF-17 blk 2 and three


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## Imran Khan

mingle said:


> With Discovery of new offshore oil and gas we need to make our Airforce size big with more F16s along with JF17 blk3.Tone of Trump is very clear that it's on cards in near future we should procure Atleast 3 to 4 new F16s Sqd with rest AESA upgrades plus Anti shipping capabilities or induct one or two Sqd of F18 super Hornets along chines JF-17 blk 2 and three


gaoon basa nhi luteery phly a gaay . bhai phly oil nikal to jany do

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## mingle

Imran Khan said:


> gaoon basa nhi luteery phly a gaay . bhai phly oil nikal to jany do


It's almost certain IA Exxon is not stupid. But tone of Trump says all we need to increase the size of all armed forces.


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## syed_yusuf

If and big if , paf go for another batch of new fighters from USA, they should go for super hornet in numbers. Buy used f-16 and upgrade

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## mingle

syed_yusuf said:


> If and big if , paf go for another batch of new fighters from USA, they should go for super hornet in numbers. Buy used f-16 and upgrade


I agree no Russian jet


----------



## Abu Zarrar

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1109834834946547712

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## Umar Nazir

Pakistanis are emotionally attach with F-16. I wish our economy improve so that we can buy latest F-16 if possible


----------



## Imran Khan

Abu Zarrar said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1109834834946547712


why not 6 AMRAAM


----------



## Hassan Al-Somal

syed_yusuf said:


> If and big if , paf go for another batch of new fighters from USA, they should go for super hornet in numbers. Buy used f-16 and upgrade




Why not invest the money in JF 17 Block III - something you developed and fully understand? In the event of war (God forbid), the birds that you developed are what is gonna secure your victory.

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## Umar Nazir

mingle said:


> It's almost certain IA Exxon is not stupid. But tone of Trump says all we need to increase the size of all armed forces.


amerkia k jahaz lainey sey behter ha bunda mig 21 ley ley. Atleast mig 21 full functions k sath tou mily ga. (light note)

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## khanasifm

Apg 68 v9 supports 6 on 6 bvr shots so 6 bvr is an option if needed


----------



## mingle

Umar Nazir said:


> amerkia k jahaz lainey sey behter ha bunda mig 21 ley ley. Atleast mig 21 full functions k sath tou mily ga. (light note)


No keep watching more American jets will come

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## ziaulislam

Hassan Al-Somal said:


> Why not invest the money in JF 17 Block III - something you developed and fully understand? In the event of war (God forbid), the birds that you developed are what is gonna secure your victory.


F16 will always have importance because its a medium catergery jet as compared to light weight thunder almost 50% larger and almost double range for C/D with CFTs

Best bet PAF can make if it get a deal like Indonesia where Indonesia payed for refurbishing of 24 C/Ds for 700m. But i doubt this will happen 

Second best will be to acquire surplus a/bs from Europe again USA will block them

Last option is to consider buying new ones...doubt paf think its worth it..cost is too much with no real freedom with limited strike and anti ship package

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## Ahmet Pasha

Make structural/design changes to JFT to make it bigger.

Or atleast add CFTs


ziaulislam said:


> F16 will always have importance because its a medium catergery jet as compared to light weight thunder almost 50% larger and almost double range for C/D with CFTs
> 
> Best bet PAF can make if it get a deal like Indonesia where Indonesia payed for refurbishing of 24 C/Ds for 700m. But i doubt this will happen
> 
> Second best will be to acquire surplus a/bs from Europe again USA will block them
> 
> Last option is to consider buying new ones...doubt paf think its worth it..cost is too much with no real freedom with limited strike and anti ship package

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## ziaulislam

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Make structural/design changes to JFT to make it bigger.
> 
> Or atleast add CFTs


Engine is the limitation
If new rd 93 ma or ws13 is available than indeed a single pod hard point addition and CFTs will change the whole program and blunt the need for f16s

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## nomi007

Turkish are developing AESA radars for F-16s.
Hope Paf will consider them in near future

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## Ahmet Pasha

Yes. IRST, CFT, AESA radar and HMDS basically give a JFT which is comparable to F16V/Block 70. Excluding the obvious size difference i.e F16 being medium. And JFT having dimensions slightly between light and medium fighter.


ziaulislam said:


> Engine is the limitation
> If new rd 93 ma or was 13is available than indeed a single pod hard point addition and CFTs will change the whole program and blunt the need for f16s



Alao a few days ago I was listening to AM Shahid Latif saying when JFT program started and he was heading it. The JFT team wanted it be like in a Block configuration. Bcz of the experience gained from Block 15/30/52. So JFT can be updated with latest features as time goes on.




In this video he talks about block building. And as far as I remember he also mentioned how JFT as open source codes and is able to integrate basically any weapon system.

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## mingle

It's biggest oil filed in Asia so Exxon is involve our relationship with US and EU is about to change for good.Pak should and will procure more weapons systems from US I feel it could be F15 or F18 as well along F16s beacuse we need heavier jet as well.

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## messiach

These off-shore fields are on OGA records for last quarter of a century. Its not by chance Exxon, former standard oil of rockerfella's has released data in last few months. @MastanKhan @Oscar @AllOthers.




mingle said:


> It's biggest oil filed in Asia so Exxon is involve our relationship with US and EU is about to change for good.Pak should and will procure more weapons systems from US I feel it could be F15 or F18 as well along F16s beacuse we need heavier jet as well.

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## JPMM

khanasifm said:


> Apg 68 v9 supports 6 on 6 bvr shots so 6 bvr is an option if needed


Talking of these!

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## mingle

messiach said:


> These off-shore fields are on OGA records for last quarter of a century. Its not by chance Exxon, former standard oil of rockerfella's has released data in last few months. @MastanKhan @Oscar @AllOthers.


Well they capping them now Good for us.

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## Signalian



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## messiach

mingle said:


> Well they capping them now Good for us.


Ok.


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## alee92nawaz

ziaulislam said:


> F16 will always have importance because its a medium catergery jet as compared to light weight thunder almost 50% larger and almost double range for C/D with CFTs
> 
> Best bet PAF can make if it get a deal like Indonesia where Indonesia payed for refurbishing of 24 C/Ds for 700m. But i doubt this will happen
> 
> Second best will be to acquire surplus a/bs from Europe again USA will block them
> 
> Last option is to consider buying new ones...doubt paf think its worth it..cost is too much with no real freedom with limited strike and anti ship package


F-16 is a better air to air fighter and also a better bomber than JF-17. This is why it's important for us. Our airforce should go for block 72 upgrade

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## monitor

alee92nawaz said:


> F-16 is a better air to air fighter and also a better bomber than JF-17. This is why it's important for us. Our airforce should go for block 72 upgrade




Considering Greece and Moroccan upgrade Pakistan need to expend nearly 2.5 billion dollar to upgrade to V standard.

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## alee92nawaz

monitor said:


> Considering Greece and Moroccan upgrade Pakistan need to expend nearly 2.5 billion dollar to upgrade to V standard.


Money is the biggest issue


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## Pakistani Fighter

alee92nawaz said:


> Money is the biggest issue


Nope. Relations with America are


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## ghazi52

.






A Turkish fighter jet performs an aerobatic stunt during a military parade to mark Pakistan Day

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## The SC

2008 when PAF F-16s locked on Indian Mig-29s

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## Signalian

ziaulislam said:


> F16 will always have importance because its a medium catergery jet as compared to light weight thunder almost 50% larger and almost double range for C/D with CFTs
> 
> Best bet PAF can make if it get a deal like Indonesia where Indonesia payed for refurbishing of 24 C/Ds for 700m. But i doubt this will happen
> 
> Second best will be to acquire surplus a/bs from Europe again USA will block them
> 
> Last option is to consider buying new ones...doubt paf think its worth it..cost is too much with no real freedom with limited strike and anti ship package


PAF was looking for Belgian F-16's in 2003. The Belgians were interested to sell them. The same thing happened that usually does happen in case of F-16's. Belgians however used an easy way out by giving a statement like this ,
"In the light of the tension between Pakistan and India the sale of F-16s to Pakistan would be unacceptable," the Flemish Greens party has told the Belgian government." (2003)
It was furthermore said that "the Belgian government will have to consult other EU member states before seeking permission from the US administration for the F-16 sale deal with Pakistan."
Belgians still have a few F-16's lying around to be replaced by F-35.

Im surprised how did the Jordanian ADF's slip into PAF.

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## GriffinsRule

Signalian said:


> PAF was looking for Belgian F-16's in 2003. The Belgians were interested to sell them. The same thing happened that usually does happen in case of F-16's. Belgians however used an easy way out by giving a statement like this ,
> "In the light of the tension between Pakistan and India the sale of F-16s to Pakistan would be unacceptable," the Flemish Greens party has told the Belgian government." (2003)
> It was furthermore said that "the Belgian government will have to consult other EU member states before seeking permission from the US administration for the F-16 sale deal with Pakistan."
> Belgians still have a few F-16's lying around to be replaced by F-35.
> 
> Im surprised how did the Bahraini ADF's slip into PAF.



There are always politics involved in military sales, so its nothing surprising. Pakistan does not have any meaningful trade with these countries so its not surprising the politicians will pay little head to PAF's needs vs their own electoral prerogatives.

And I think you meant Jordanian not Bahrain? Those ADF F-16s had come from the USAF stock ... and even if they were ex-European birds, once transferred out of their hands into Jordanian ones, only US would have a say in any future transfer or sale of those birds.

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## Signalian

GriffinsRule said:


> There are always politics involved in military sales, so its nothing surprising. Pakistan does not have any meaningful trade with these countries so its not surprising the politicians will pay little head to PAF's needs vs their own electoral prerogatives.
> 
> And I think you meant Jordanian not Bahrain? Those ADF F-16s had come from the USAF stock ... and even if they were ex-European birds, once transferred out of their hands into Jordanian ones, only US would have a say in any future transfer or sale of those birds.


Yes i edited, Jordanian, not Bahriani

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## denel

Signalian said:


> Yes i edited, Jordanian, not Bahriani


Waiting on the next batch of jordianian f-16s to show up. Someone said in July this year but could be rumours - all hinges on a thank you for afghan peace talks coming to fruition.



mingle said:


> No keep watching more American jets will come


yes, post afghan peace talks.

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## araz

denel said:


> Waiting on the next batch of jordianian f-16s to show up. Someone said in July this year but could be rumours - all hinges on a thank you for afghan peace talks coming to fruition.
> 
> 
> yes, post afghan peace talks.


I would much rahter the AH1Zs came to PAA. I think with US Pak politics quickly moving in opposite directions the 16s could become a liability.
A

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## denel

araz said:


> I would much rahter the AH1Zs came to PAA. I think with US Pak politics quickly moving in opposite directions the 16s could become a liability.
> A


i believe no equipmnt needs to come from US; the hijack/hostage mentality needs to be ended.

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## Signalian



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## monitor

Signalian said:


> View attachment 550792
> View attachment 550793



Any comparison available about how much is the CAP for JF-17 Block II and upcoming Block-III ?


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## Signalian



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## m52k85

Signalian said:


> View attachment 550798
> View attachment 550799
> View attachment 550800


I would have thought F-16 C had more range than A. Any thoughts on why the A can go further?



monitor said:


> Any comparison available about how much is the CAP for JF-17 Block II and upcoming Block-III ?





Naif al Hilali said:


> Bismillah ir Rahman ar Raheem
> 
> Now, when estimating the combat radius for the JF-17, we need to keep in mind that the drag- and weight- induced fuel consumption penalties for the smaller, lighter JF-17 will be more _for an equivalent payload_ when compared with our F-16 baseline.
> 
> Our calculations are somewhat simplified by observing that the payloads carried by the JF-17 are usually very simply aligned into the air-stream and with respect to each other. There are not many munitions carried concurrently (at one time). Interference drags (caused by airflow disturbance in-between stores and between pylons) seem to be well-controlled also.
> 
> However, the drag of stores compared to the clean aircraft (no external stores) or ferry-configured aircraft will be higher as a percentage of the clean (or ferry-configured) aircraft's drag. This is nothing new; this percentage effect of a store's drag (called its drag index) is obviously going to be smaller for the already larger, draggier airframes - the store's drag remains the same, its proportion to the different airframe's drags changes.
> 
> As an example, the drag index of a single 600 US gallon wing drop tank is 28 (% of the total clean-airframe drag) of an F-16C, but only 12 for the much larger F-15C (not sure with or without pylon drag), and just 2 for the very draggy A-10. The drag index of a store also increases in conjunction with what else is carried externally (due to the interference drag we mentioned earlier).
> 
> It can be safely assumed that the drag index of an equivalent store on the JF-17 is probably going to be more than 25% higher than for an F-16. How much it is exactly, is going to be open to much conjecture without resorting to an accurate JF-17 model and a wind tunnel.
> 
> For the F-16 (whose charts are available on-line) we can safely assume that our optimal range calculations were within a few percentage points of reality. However, for the JF-17, even if all assumptions are very carefully considered, our mission radius calculations will be fortunate to be within 10% of the actual figures.
> 
> Also, please keep in mind that a total stores drag index of 100 means that the aircraft is twice as draggy as when clean. However, it does not mean that it will consume twice as much fuel. At similar weights, the fuel consumption might only increase by 20% in cruise. Increasing weight without increasing drag generally has a somewhat proportional effect on fuel consumption.
> 
> Now, for the JF-17 we have one very important measure of combat radius, its CAP (Combat Air Patrol) endurance from the PAF. It is safe to assume that this measure was defined by the same metrics and assumptions used by General Dynamics (not necessarily the same as ours) for measuring the F-16A's CAP endurance.
> 
> Fortuitously, we found that the JF-17 in a very similar ferry configuration to the F-16 used about 80% of the fuel per nautical mile. So, without more ado, let us see if we can scale our F-16 charts to fit the JF-17 and come to a CAP endurance estimate close to the PAF's.
> 
> ---
> 
> Mission Profile I - Combat Air Patrol [CAP] 200 nautical miles from base
> 
> JF-17 Block I/II (14,500 pounds Aircraft Empty Weight)
> Internal Fuel + 800 Liter Centerline Drop Tank + Two 1,100 Liter Drop Tanks + Two SD-10A + Two PL-5EII
> 28,000 pounds Takeoff Weight [TOW]
> 10,000 pounds [6,000 liters] fuel
> - 500 pounds taxi & takeoff
> - 1,700 pounds climbout & cruise (total 200 nautical miles) to CAP area
> - 4,700 pounds stay on station for one hour and fifty minutes
> - 1,600 pounds reserves for 5 minutes dash and two minutes afterburner combat
> - 700 pounds cruise up to 200 nautical miles back to base
> - 800 pounds reserves for 20 minutes Sea Level Loiter or 200 nautical miles Divert
> @ *1 Hour 50 Minutes at 200 nautical miles* from base
> PAF Stated Endurance for CAP mission: _*1 Hour 45 Minutes*_
> 
> ---
> 
> Notes:
> 1. Warmer than standard temperatures at cruising altitude may reduce range slightly (usually 1% to 2% , but up to 10% for some portions of flight).
> 2. Afterburner (A/B) assisted takeoffs require additional fuel, reducing combat radius by @ 50 nautical miles (or endurance by 15 minutes).
> 3. Not being able to cruise at optimum altitudes/airspeeds for some portions of flight may reduce endurance by 5-15 minutes.
> 4. Headwinds encountered during some portions of flight may reduce combat endurance by 5-10 minutes.
> 5. Every minute of afterburner use at medium-high altitude consumes as much fuel as 20 to 10 minutes of optimum cruise (or CAP endurance).
> 
> ---
> 
> Units:
> One Nautical Mile [nm.] = 6080 Feet [ft.] = 1.15 Statute Miles [mi.] = @ 1.85 Kilometers [km.]
> One Pound [lb.] = @ 0.4535 Kilograms [kg.]; One Kilogram = 2.205 Pounds
> 1,000 Pound-Force [lbf.] Thrust = @ 4,450 Newtons = 4.45 Kilo-Newtons [kN.] Thrust
> Kilograms are units of mass and the term Kilogram-Force [kgf.] is meaningless.
> One US Gallon = 3.785 Liters = @ 6.84 pounds JP-8 fuel; One Imperial Gallon = 4.54 Liters; One Liter = @ 0.82 Kilogram JP-8
> 
> ---
> 
> These figures were surprising to me. Using simpler metrics earlier, I had come to a CAP endurance for the JF-17 at 1 hour 35 minutes to 1 hour 40 minutes, 200 nautical miles from base. Remember, the heavy Block 50 F-16Cs that we calculated CAP endurance for came out at 1 hour 35 minutes under similar conditions (also surprising - expected it to be a bit higher; probably under-estimated the effect of the large engines and extra weight).
> 
> As always, all errors pointed out will be greatly appreciated. We will attempt to post our calculations for the other mission profiles later this week, Insha'Allah (hopefully simplified and with not as much exposition).
> 
> Allah keep everyone safe.



Check that out.

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## Signalian

*F-16 CFT connections to Fuselage*

The 4 connections to Fuselage are as follows:

Called "Dry Bay", which is a panel that comes instead of a regular Access panel in the center of the fuselage. It contains all the fuel connections. The smart thing is that you can choose if you want the dry bay, or just regular access panel.
Forward connector that includes 2 electric connections and a some kind of a hang screw.
Aft connector.
The gun panel, that must be removed in order to put the CFT's.










Source: F-16.net

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## weqi

mingle said:


> No keep watching more American jets will come



handsomely play Afghanistan card

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## weqi

Umar Nazir said:


> Pakistanis are emotionally attach with F-16. I wish our economy improve so that we can buy latest F-16 if possible



not just economy ,relations with united states are vital ,important is what card to play with the trump attitude obama administration may ye hotay hotay reh gaya


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## ziaulislam

Belgium and Norway will be giving up 90+ f16s soon. If they Pakistan plays its card right and use current Afghanistan issue it can get those and can put them through life extension

F 16 MLU are still better than nay aircraft in indian aresenal and have a logicsl uograde oathway defined alreadyas well

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## Stealth



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## Silicon0000

ziaulislam said:


> Belgium and Norway will be giving up 90+ f16s soon. If they Pakistan plays its card right and use current Afghanistan issue it can get those and can put them through life extension
> 
> F 16 MLU are still better than nay aircraft in indian aresenal and have a logicsl uograde oathway defined alreadyas well



Norway probably scrap them instead of resale or giving up to any country as their leaders want to save themself from any controversy....... Read in an article but now don't have it's link.


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## Fenrir

ziaulislam said:


> Belgium and Norway will be giving up 90+ f16s soon. If they Pakistan plays its card right and use current Afghanistan issue it can get those and can put them through life extension



No, Norway will not be giving up or selling its F-16s. A decision to scrap them rather then either sell or transfer or refurbish them, due to often difficult political wrangling, has been made and upheld.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/01/27/as-f-35-comes-online-norway-to-scrap-f-16-fleet/

_Rather than trying to deal with the complicated politics of reselling them or paying the cost of maintaining the older fighters as a reserve, the Ministry of Defense plans to scrap its collection fifty-plus Fighting Falcons, officials said during a visit here January 19.

The government plans to shut down the 56-plane fleet at the end of 2021, replacing it with a slightly smaller but more capable fleet of 52 F-35A conventional-takeoff-and-landing variants._
_
...
_
These are old birds, from the early 80s and have already undergone extensive life-extension modification. There's only so much more life you could squeeze out of an airframe that's nearly 40 years old and put through the rigors these machines have.
_




















_

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## Keysersoze

Fenrir said:


> No, Norway will not be giving up or selling its F-16s. A decision to scrap them rather then either sell or transfer or refurbish them, due to often difficult political wrangling, has been made and upheld.
> 
> https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/01/27/as-f-35-comes-online-norway-to-scrap-f-16-fleet/
> 
> _Rather than trying to deal with the complicated politics of reselling them or paying the cost of maintaining the older fighters as a reserve, the Ministry of Defense plans to scrap its collection fifty-plus Fighting Falcons, officials said during a visit here January 19.
> 
> The government plans to shut down the 56-plane fleet at the end of 2021, replacing it with a slightly smaller but more capable fleet of 52 F-35A conventional-takeoff-and-landing variants.
> 
> ...
> _
> These are old birds, from the early 80s and have already undergone extensive life-extension modification. There's only so much more life you could squeeze out of an airframe that's nearly 40 years old and put through the rigors these machines have.
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _


I understand that the F16's that have been used by forces with coastlines I.E the dutch and Norwegian aircraft have taken more of a beating because of sea air corrosion.

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## BATMAN

Fenrir said:


> No, Norway will not be giving up or selling its F-16s. A decision to scrap them rather then either sell or transfer or refurbish them, due to often difficult political wrangling, has been made and upheld.
> 
> https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/01/27/as-f-35-comes-online-norway-to-scrap-f-16-fleet/
> 
> _Rather than trying to deal with the complicated politics of reselling them or paying the cost of maintaining the older fighters as a reserve, the Ministry of Defense plans to scrap its collection fifty-plus Fighting Falcons, officials said during a visit here January 19.
> 
> The government plans to shut down the 56-plane fleet at the end of 2021, replacing it with a slightly smaller but more capable fleet of 52 F-35A conventional-takeoff-and-landing variants.
> 
> ...
> _
> These are old birds, from the early 80s and have already undergone extensive life-extension modification. There's only so much more life you could squeeze out of an airframe that's nearly 40 years old and put through the rigors these machines have.
> _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _



Can i buy the scrap?

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## Trailer23

Keysersoze said:


> I understand that the F16's that have been used by forces with coastlines I.E the dutch and Norwegian aircraft have taken more of a beating because of sea air corrosion.


That climate would cover Belgium too, but then why did the Royal Jordanian Air Force go for those & the Dutch F-16?


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## SABRE

mingle said:


> No keep watching more American jets will come



If we have funds Lockheed would jump to the opportunity & even do bidding for us at the Capitol Hill.

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## Keysersoze

Trailer23 said:


> That climate would cover Belgium too, but then why did the Royal Jordanian Air Force go for those & the Dutch F-16?


Maybe low airframe hours and upgrades completed?


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## Imran Khan



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## Signalian

ziaulislam said:


> Belgium and Norway will be giving up 90+ f16s soon. If they Pakistan plays its card right and use current Afghanistan issue it can get those and can put them through life extension
> 
> F 16 MLU are still better than nay aircraft in indian aresenal and have a logicsl uograde oathway defined alreadyas well


Pakistan can get any number of F-16's or any variant it wants. The issue is a strife over the FMF that entitles Pakistan to buy 18 new F-16 Block 52+ at a lower price than original price. USA wants to snatch that privilege away. This complicates the window for buying F-16's from USA. PAF was to get 14 X F-16 Block 15's from USN, which were refused by USN. There are 21 x F-16 Block 15's grounded in Venezuelan Air Force. Belgians had to upgrade them, unconfirmed in media.



Keysersoze said:


> I understand that the F16's that have been used by forces with coastlines I.E the dutch and Norwegian aircraft have taken more of a beating because of sea air corrosion.


MLU gives structural integrity. European F-16's have been MLU'ed already.



SABRE said:


> If we have funds Lockheed would jump to the opportunity & even do bidding for us at the Capitol Hill.


That is correct.

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## fatman17

FMF route is closed. We can buy F16s but with our own sovereign funds.

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## ziaulislam

Signalian said:


> Pakistan can get any number of F-16's or any variant it wants. The issue is a strife over the FMF that entitles Pakistan to buy 18 new F-16 Block 52+ at a lower price than original price. USA wants to snatch that privilege away. This complicates the window for buying F-16's from USA. PAF was to get 14 X F-16 Block 15's from USN, which were refused by USN. There are 21 x F-16 Block 15's grounded in Venezuelan Air Force. Belgians had to upgrade them, unconfirmed in media.
> 
> 
> MLU gives structural integrity. European F-16's have been MLU'ed already.
> 
> 
> That is correct.


There might be a pathwsy to add SLEP or another 4000 hours to f16..
There are pretty many jordianan European and american f16s lyung around. Usa will simply nit release older f16s

Also i doubt block 70 or aim9x aim 120d is available for Pakistan without these it's not smart to soend 100m+ for f16s


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## Signalian

ziaulislam said:


> There might be a pathwsy to add SLEP or another 4000 hours to f16..
> There are pretty many jordianan European and american f16s lyung around. Usa will simply nit release older f16s
> 
> Also i doubt block 70 or aim9x aim 120d is available for Pakistan without these it's not smart to soend 100m+ for f16s


You don't get it. If PAF pays the price that USA wants, PAF will get F-16's.

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## Trailer23

*F-16 Operators:*

791 - USA [some deadbeat lying in the Arizona Desert]
*245 - Turkey *[one of our best options]
*218 - Egypt *[an option]
168 - South Korea
153 - Greece
140 - Taiwan (Republic of China) [Pandora's Box]
*104 - Jordan *[one of our best options]
68 - Netherlands
78 - UAE
60 - Singapore
55 - Norway
53 - Thailand
52 - Belgium
48 - Poland
48 - Morocco
46 - Chile
 35 - Iraq [They just got them]
32 - Indonesia​ 30 - Denmark
27 - Portugal
24 - Oman
21 - Bahrain
16 - Venezuela [debatable]
12 - Romania [They just got them]

224 - Unrecognized State [Waste of time]


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## ziaulislam

Signalian said:


> You don't get it. If PAF pays the price that USA wants, PAF will get F-16's.


Officially nothing beyond block 52 has been ever offered ..even the 8 AC were b52


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## khanasifm

Interesting 

Dutch F-16 flies into its own bullets, scores self-inflicted hits - Ars Technica
https://apple.news/A3rkXa0z0TrCVVHgG687WYg


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## Shane

fatman17 said:


> FMF route is closed. We can buy F16s but with our own sovereign funds.


Aa, Isn't the Zulu not being delivered due to ristrictions on any sale or is that due to FMF ristriction too?

In due time, why not PAF test if sovereign funds route is still available or not...the immidiate next requirement that can easily be managed with own funding is the even more more potent C-7 if not the D version of AMRAAM.


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## Signalian

ziaulislam said:


> Officially nothing beyond block 52 has been ever offered ..even the 8 AC were b52


PAF is not pursuing.


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## MIRauf

Zulu are held back due to FMF, current US Gov't is asking for hard cash.

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## Trailer23

fatman17 said:


> FMF route is closed. We can buy F16s but with our own sovereign funds.





Signalian said:


> If PAF pays the price that USA wants, PAF will get F-16's.


Circumstantial. There are a couple of factors that would be involved in acquiring brand new F-16's from the US.

*1.* _The President of the United States_ has to agree, first. Lets say he does as goodwill gesture (Pakistan helping out with the Peace process in Afghanistan).

And lets be honest, every F-16 deal that has come towards the PAF has been linked to Afghanistan.

*2.* The matter has then gotta go to Capital Hill where Congress vote. Now the _House of Representatives_ in power are Democrats which _might_ work in our favor, but one can never be sure.

To my knowledge...all this applies to brand new F-16's from Lockheed Martin.

However..., if we were to seek Used F-16's from another nation - with obviously our own sovereign funds, I don't think the US would mind. They didn't have an issue with us buying (13 of them) a few years back from Jordan, after the US denied the sale for Eight through FMF.

Note: If PAF were to go down that path of buying F-16's from another nation, they need to keep in mind the events that took place earlier this year with Israel & Croatia. That deal didn't go through.

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## Signalian

Trailer23 said:


> Circumstantial. There are a couple of factors that would be involved in acquiring brand new F-16's from the US.
> 
> *1.* _The President of the United States_ has to agree, first. Lets say he does as goodwill gesture (Pakistan helping out with the Peace process in Afghanistan).
> 
> And lets be honest, every F-16 deal that has come towards the PAF has been linked to Afghanistan.
> 
> *2.* The matter has then gotta go to Capital Hill where Congress vote. Now the _House of Representatives_ in power are Democrats which _might_ work in our favor, but one can never be sure.
> 
> To my knowledge...all this applies to brand new F-16's from Lockheed Martin.
> 
> However..., if we were to seek Used F-16's from another nation - with obviously our own sovereign funds, I don't think the US would mind. They didn't have an issue with us buying (13 of them) a few years back from Jordan, after the US denied the sale for Eight through FMF.
> 
> Note: If PAF were to go down that path of buying F-16's from another nation, they need to keep in mind the events that took place earlier this year with Israel & Croatia. That deal didn't go through.


USA did mind buying from other countries and allegedly stopped a second deal of Jordanian F-16's transfer to Pakistan.

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## Trailer23

Signalian said:


> USA did mind buying from other countries and allegedly stopped a second deal of Jordanian F-16's transfer to Pakistan.


I don't recall that. You said '_allegedly_'. Do you remember which timeline?
During Obama Administration or the present one?


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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> Circumstantial. There are a couple of factors that would be involved in acquiring brand new F-16's from the US.
> 
> *1.* _The President of the United States_ has to agree, first. Lets say he does as goodwill gesture (Pakistan helping out with the Peace process in Afghanistan).
> 
> And lets be honest, every F-16 deal that has come towards the PAF has been linked to Afghanistan.
> 
> *2.* The matter has then gotta go to Capital Hill where Congress vote. Now the _House of Representatives_ in power are Democrats which _might_ work in our favor, but one can never be sure.
> 
> To my knowledge...all this applies to brand new F-16's from Lockheed Martin.
> 
> However..., if we were to seek Used F-16's from another nation - with obviously our own sovereign funds, I don't think the US would mind. They didn't have an issue with us buying (13 of them) a few years back from Jordan, after the US denied the sale for Eight through FMF.
> 
> Note: If PAF were to go down that path of buying F-16's from another nation, they need to keep in mind the events that took place earlier this year with Israel & Croatia. That deal didn't go through.


foreign minister on record saying usa blocked used f16s...but getting used is more likely given hostilities in congress

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## Signalian

Trailer23 said:


> I don't recall that. You said '_allegedly_'. Do you remember which timeline?
> During Obama Administration or the present one?


search in forum , u will find it.


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## Trailer23

ziaulislam said:


> foreign minister on record saying usa blocked used f16s...but getting used is more likely given hostilities in congress


Well, this is as good time as any to attempt in acquiring some additional F-16's to the 3-digit mark.

The US needs us for the Afghan peace process. They want out of Afghanistan. If and when they leave, they intend to only have a few hundred forces (for Security) on the ground & pack up everything else.

I haven't heard anything negative come out of Trump's mouth post Balakot. Even the 'Do More' narrative seems to be fading as of late. But, its still not going to give us FMF which we seek to fund such a venture.

So then we're back to square one or..., we make a deal for used ones - no strings attached.

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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> Well, this is as good time as any to attempt in acquiring some additional F-16's to the 3-digit mark.
> 
> The US needs us for the Afghan peace process. They want out of Afghanistan. If and when they leave, they intend to only have a few hundred forces (for Security) on the ground & pack up everything else.
> 
> I haven't heard anything negative come out of Trump's mouth post Balakot. Even the 'Do More' narrative seems to be fading as of late. But, its still not going to give us FMF which we seek to fund such a venture.
> 
> So then we're back to square one or..., we make a deal for used ones - no strings attached.


its time we push for used f16 and get them upgraded on our own money..i doubt FMS is going to come 
low hanging fruit are in europe, USA and jordan

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## SABRE

Trailer23 said:


> Well, this is as good time as any to attempt in acquiring some additional F-16's to the 3-digit mark.
> 
> *The US needs us for the Afghan peace process*. They want out of Afghanistan. If and when they leave, they intend to only have a few hundred forces (for Security) on the ground & pack up everything else.
> 
> I haven't heard anything negative come out of Trump's mouth post Balakot. Even the 'Do More' narrative seems to be fading as of late. But, its still not going to give us FMF which we seek to fund such a venture.
> 
> So then we're back to square one or..., we make a deal for used ones - no strings attached.



I don't mean to downplay your opinion or sound rude but this thought process has landed us in the hot waters that we have been trying to get out of first place. They pursue their interests and we pursue ours, but we end up losing more than them. This is not to say we should be subservient to them, but we should trade cautiously. Let them exist Afghanistan with a political settlement with the Taliban without any Pakistani condition to it unless contours of their settlement are detrimental to Pakistan. We should keep F-16 and AH-1Z attack helicopters on the sideline discussions, not on top of the Afghan settlement.

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## Trailer23

SABRE said:


> We should keep F-16 and AH-1Z attack helicopters on the sideline discussions, not on top of the Afghan settlement.


I agree. But the Americans aren't stupid either. They already know what is on our '_wish list_' before we even ask for it, so taking them for a fool isn't an option.

They know full well what the current inventory of PAF F-16's is doing in minds of the adversary.

So, yeah, we can play '_sideline_' game as you mentioned - but truth be told, they'll see it coming a mile away.

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## mingle

SABRE said:


> I don't mean to downplay your opinion or sound rude but this thought process has landed us in the hot waters that we have been trying to get out of first place. They pursue their interests and we pursue ours, but we end up losing more than them. This is not to say we should be subservient to them, but we should trade cautiously. Let them exist Afghanistan with a political settlement with the Taliban without any Pakistani condition to it unless contours of their settlement are detrimental to Pakistan. We should keep F-16 and AH-1Z attack helicopters on the sideline discussions, not on top of the Afghan settlement.


It's High time to engage LM for more F21s with suger coating rest of F16s with V upgrades which I doubt they will allow TAI this time more like Grummen herself will do it. I agree with u it should be on sideline but the way things r melting between US and Pak I feel we have a very shot for more F16s I wish this time make in Pak at kamra.today American senators were praiseing pak over india Pak tension issue along Afghanistan.



ziaulislam said:


> its time we push for used f16 and get them upgraded on our own money..i doubt FMS is going to come
> low hanging fruit are in europe, USA and jordan


They won't release old frames unless we will buy atleast two or more Sqd of New that's where money is we can make a deal with new and used one as many as we can.if LM do lobby FMS will be no issue US still using our land as transit they still owe us money which can be spent on Arms purchases



Trailer23 said:


> I agree. But the Americans aren't stupid either. They already know what is on our '_wish list_' before we even ask for it, so taking them for a fool isn't an option.
> 
> They know full well what the current inventory of PAF F-16's is doing in minds of the adversary.
> 
> So, yeah, we can play '_sideline_' game as you mentioned - but truth be told, they'll see it coming a mile away.


India not gonna buy any offensive big ticket items from US no matter how much hunky dory between them today's they buying more T90s from Russia I see theior future defence suppliers still gona be Russia, French and isreal yes Korea as well. So I see F16s coming to Pak and American knows it we looking more new jets since it's worked great against India both psychologically and strike wise as well.



Trailer23 said:


> Circumstantial. There are a couple of factors that would be involved in acquiring brand new F-16's from the US.
> 
> *1.* _The President of the United States_ has to agree, first. Lets say he does as goodwill gesture (Pakistan helping out with the Peace process in Afghanistan).
> 
> And lets be honest, every F-16 deal that has come towards the PAF has been linked to Afghanistan.
> 
> *2.* The matter has then gotta go to Capital Hill where Congress vote. Now the _House of Representatives_ in power are Democrats which _might_ work in our favor, but one can never be sure.
> 
> To my knowledge...all this applies to brand new F-16's from Lockheed Martin.
> 
> However..., if we were to seek Used F-16's from another nation - with obviously our own sovereign funds, I don't think the US would mind. They didn't have an issue with us buying (13 of them) a few years back from Jordan, after the US denied the sale for Eight through FMF.
> 
> Note: If PAF were to go down that path of buying F-16's from another nation, they need to keep in mind the events that took place earlier this year with Israel & Croatia. That deal didn't go through.


Croatia deal is same US wants them to buy new ones not used ones same with Pak we can do arrangement that we will buy new jets but allow us to procure used one too from other nations Jorden still have 15 jets plus EU has many. Trump and Shanahan both r business ppl they can struck deal if we add sweetner that all our old frames will go V upgrades there is more money for US vendors let's see how it play out but I see more F16s r coming to Pak


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## GriffinsRule

Croatian deal involved used Israeli F-16s with their own avionics that they tried to sell in order to undercut competition from others including the US, which is why US denied the third party transfer sale, as they require OEM stuff in any US sold system. The US asked Israeli to strip out all Israeli systems including electronics and radars from the jets before the sale. The Croats told Israel they would only buy them as Israel had initially put them forward with all their own gizmos and told them to figure it out with the US. Since they could not, the sale fell through. 

This should also give a good idea for posters here who think they Pakistan can just villy nilly upgrade any of its F-16s with non-US radars or avionics etc as some people have been pointing towards Turkey as a source of upgrades if we cant get Block 70s from the US. I can tell you, it would never happen as PAF would loose all after sales support and there would be pretty harsh penalties on Turkey as well.

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## baqai

whether we get more F-16's or not we should hype and create noise about getting them ... just to **** with minds of Indian media and armed forces lol

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## weqi

NO DOUBT F-16 is an effective arsenal but efforts in acquiring those machines (making political ground suitable international and nationally) and cost and regulations over use making it more complicated as compared to F-17 why f-17 is not going in integration with vixen 1000 e and other better engines from Sweden if i see indians who have complete support from US but still thay are praying tejas to take off (for god sake)


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## Signalian

mingle said:


> It's High time to engage LM for more F21s with suger coating rest of F16s with V upgrades which I doubt they will allow TAI this time more like Grummen herself will do it. I agree with u it should be on sideline but the way things r melting between US and Pak I feel we have a very shot for more F16s I wish this time make in Pak at kamra.today American senators were praiseing pak over india Pak tension issue along Afghanistan.
> 
> 
> They won't release old frames unless we will buy atleast two or more Sqd of New that's where money is we can make a deal with new and used one as many as we can.if LM do lobby FMS will be no issue US still using our land as transit they still owe us money which can be spent on Arms purchases
> 
> 
> India not gonna buy any offensive big ticket items from US no matter how much hunky dory between them today's they buying more T90s from Russia I see theior future defence suppliers still gona be Russia, French and isreal yes Korea as well. So I see F16s coming to Pak and American knows it we looking more new jets since it's worked great against India both psychologically and strike wise as well.
> 
> 
> Croatia deal is same US wants them to buy new ones not used ones same with Pak we can do arrangement that we will buy new jets but allow us to procure used one too from other nations Jorden still have 15 jets plus EU has many. Trump and Shanahan both r business ppl they can struck deal if we add sweetner that all our old frames will go V upgrades there is more money for US vendors let's see how it play out but I see more F16s r coming to Pak


would PAF buy 18 F-16 Block 70 for around 3 Billion USD ?
Highly doubt it.

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## Signalian

ziaulislam said:


> its time we push for used f16 and get them upgraded on our own money..i doubt FMS is going to come
> low hanging fruit are in europe, USA and jordan


Lets say PAF has 3 billion USD to spend, which i doubt it has in reality, anyways, pick one option.

1. 50-60 x J-10C
OR
2. 18-20 x F-16 V/Block 70
OR
3. Upgrade all PAF F-16's to V standard 
OR
4. 70 x JF-17 Block III 
OR
5. 24-30 used F-16's and upgrade them to block 52 standard.

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## fatman17

Shane said:


> Aa, Isn't the Zulu not being delivered due to ristrictions on any sale or is that due to FMF ristriction too?
> 
> In due time, why not PAF test if sovereign funds route is still available or not...the immidiate next requirement that can easily be managed with own funding is the even more more potent C-7 if not the D version of AMRAAM.


Yes, now but the last time US congress refused thru FMF, but conceded that they are free to buy with own funds.


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## ziaulislam

Signalian said:


> Lets say PAF has 3 billion USD to spend, which i doubt it has in reality, anyways, pick one option.
> 
> 1. 50-60 x J-10C
> OR
> 2. 18-20 x F-16 V/Block 70
> OR
> 3. Upgrade all PAF F-16's to V standard
> OR
> 4. 70 x JF-17 Block III
> OR
> 5. 24-30 used F-16's and upgrade them to block 52 standard.


Indonesia got 24 block52 used for 700 million nothing was paid by usa tax money and this included trainings and some weapons 

But either its going to be 4. Or 5.
Paf doesnt consider new f16 cost effective unless combined with used f16s, FMF

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## weqi

Signalian said:


> Lets say PAF has 3 billion USD to spend, which i doubt it has in reality, anyways, pick one option.
> 
> 1. 50-60 x J-10C
> OR
> 2. 18-20 x F-16 V/Block 70
> OR
> 3. Upgrade all PAF F-16's to V standard
> OR
> 4. 70 x JF-17 Block III
> OR
> 5. 24-30 used F-16's and upgrade them to block 52 standard.





*3. Upgrade all PAF F-16's to V standard*

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## Trailer23

Signalian said:


> would PAF buy 18 F-16 Block 70 for around 3 Billion USD ?
> Highly doubt it.


Me too. Unless the payment could be covered in installments in a span of 4-5 Years.


Signalian said:


> 1. 50-60 x J-10C
> OR
> 2. 18-20 x F-16 V/Block 70
> OR
> 3. Upgrade all PAF F-16's to V standard
> OR
> 4. 70 x JF-17 Block III
> OR
> 5. 24-30 used F-16's and upgrade them to block 52 standard.


I was thinking more down the line of *Option 5* or *Option 1*. Block52 are pretty modern as it is. We can always upgrade them later when we have funds - a decade later.


weqi said:


> _*3. Upgrade all PAF F-16's to V standard*_


I would be against going down that path for the time being. India will be getting the Rafales in the years to come & in the next couple of years are intending to get around 20 Soviet-era MiG-29's for $900 Million. Lets not forget the order they plan on placing shortly where the F-21 is a contender.

Look, its not everyday we are able to get our hands on brand new or used F-16's. Try to recall how many JF-17's have been inducted in the PAF since we received our last Block52 (not counting the Jordanian F-16's)?

I'm not certain if it will ever happen. But if there is even the slightest possibility that we can acquire additional F-16's, I say we go for it. Also, if the US feel that Pakistan is seriously considering buying the J-10c's*, they might be inclined to loosen up - just to keep us in their corner.

*Unless there is something already in the pipeline that we're not aware of.

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## mingle

weqi said:


> *3. Upgrade all PAF F-16's to V standard*


Plus 36 to 40 blk 70 gives very potent punch will negate Rafale purchase for good.


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## Trailer23

mingle said:


> Plus 36 to 40 blk 70 gives very potent punch will negate Rafale purchase for good.


*36 to 40 blk70's!!!* Are you serious?!!

What're you trying to do...bankrupt the nation?

We can't afford those...

We can't even go for 18-20 blk70's unless the payment was spread out in years.

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## MIRauf

It's going to be the combo of Options ( 1 & 5, slim outside chance of option 3 )


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## Trailer23

MIRauf said:


> It's going to be the combo of Options ( 1 & 5, slim outside chance of option 3 )


Yep, as I already mentioned earlier.

It is a thing of beauty, isn't it... I wish my f#*king Lancer looked this sexy.

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## Signalian

ziaulislam said:


> Indonesia got 24 block52 used for 700 million nothing was paid by usa tax money and this included trainings and some weapons
> 
> But either its going to be 4. Or 5.
> Paf doesnt consider new f16 cost effective unless combined with used f16s, FMF





weqi said:


> *3. Upgrade all PAF F-16's to V standard*





Trailer23 said:


> Me too. Unless the payment could be covered in installments in a span of 4-5 Years.
> 
> I was thinking more down the line of *Option 5* or *Option 1*. Block52 are pretty modern as it is. We can always upgrade them later when we have funds - a decade later.
> 
> I would be against going down that path for the time being. India will be getting the Rafales in the years to come & in the next couple of years are intending to get around 20 Soviet-era MiG-29's for $900 Million. Lets not forget the order they plan on placing shortly where the F-21 is a contender.
> 
> Look, its not everyday we are able to get our hands on brand new or used F-16's. Try to recall how many JF-17's have been inducted in the PAF since we received our last Block52 (not counting the Jordanian F-16's)?
> 
> I'm not certain if it will ever happen. But if there is even the slightest possibility that we can acquire additional F-16's, I say we go for it. Also, if the US feel that Pakistan is seriously considering buying the J-10c's*, they might be inclined to loosen up - just to keep us in their corner.
> 
> *Unless there is something already in the pipeline that we're not aware of.





mingle said:


> Plus 36 to 40 blk 70 gives very potent punch will negate Rafale purchase for good.



The points i'm trying to highlight are multiple plus that not all acquisitions and upgrades can be done simultaneously.

Think about it, PAF has added 5 JF-17 squadrons and 1 F-16 Squadron from Jordan into inventory apart from SPADA 2000 AD system. This amounts to around 115-120 aircrafts since 2010. JF-17's were not built for free, neither F-16 ADF were acquired for free. Project Azm is also going side by side. So when someone stands up and starts saying that where did funds go? maybe we should ask from where did the funds come to buy these 100+ aircrafts. Maybe when some Indian member starts speaking about economics of Pakistan and no funds to buy new aircrafts, he should be reminded that PAF has bought these aircrafts from allotted funds , so PAF is not cash stripped, its thrifty. This is actually something that bothers IAF alot- PAF replacing older aircrafts swiftly as well as raising new squadrons in past decade, while IAF is short of sanctioned squadrons. Those members want to know where did the funds of PAF go after earthquake, should realize that PAF didn't replace older aircrafts neither raised these 6 squadrons for free.

In all totality, PAF also added 32 new and used F-16's since 2010, which were part of FMF. So thats an addition of 150 fighter aircrafts in past 10 years or so. These 32 aircrafts are concessional or funded.

Honestly, PAF has done more than enough but members here want more. J-11, J-16, SU-35, F-16 V, JH-7B, J-10C....the appetite is non-ending. If IAF is going for a shopping spree,it should not insecure members here that PAF should do the same. Has this thinking pattern generated from seeing different planned inductions of IAF ? modernization of F-16's and new blocks coming out ? 5th gen aircraft R&D by few countries ike ROK, Turkey etc ?

Do JF-17 and F-16 start to seem meager in front of Rafale ? They also didnt seem enough in front of 240 SU-30 MKI's. And then there are Mig-29's and Mirage-2000's and Tejas. With so many types, even then Rafale is needed for IAF. This arms race is never ending. F-16 MLU and F-16 Block 52+ pose a real headache to IAF already. The way PAF deploys these F-16's and IAF will never sit tight even after acquiring Rafale. IAF will next ask for 5th gen aircraft and upgrades for Rafale and Tejas or SU 30 MKI. IAF is already looking for more Mirage 2000's. After that IAF would want 6th gen aircraft. Do you see who is insecure here ? IAF, not PAF. 

The PAF Mirage-III and Mirage-V are under rated; old, obsolete, nearing end life, requiring replacement, crash rate going high ! The same Mirage carries ALCM and a major weapon payload which makes F-16 envious. I don't doubt that these need replacement, yes they do,but striking them off from the book is a mistake most members make here, IAF knows these are lethal and potent aircrafts. These Mirages just visited India recently and arrived back unscathed, but the feeling of a brand new bird in PAF give a security, a relief to hearts, doesn't it ? Whenever a Mirage or F-7 crash takes place, shouting on PDF starts for J-10, SU 35, JH-7B.

There are 4 squadrons of F-16's, apart from Aggressor Squadron. These are hard pressed to conduct all types of roles. Air superiority, air defence, escort, interdiction, ground strikes, tactical attack and Naval strike if necessary. The main concern for them is sanctions, non up gradation and non acquisition however PAF seems content with their performance. There was a time when Indian members here used to say Mig-21 Bison can take out PAF F-16's easily. Times have changed. PAF and PAF's F-16 are not the same. The mechanically steered Pulse Doppler radar of F-16 has proved effective against Passive electrically steered Pulse Doppler radar of SU 30 MKI. The Israeli Elta M8222 jamming pod of Mig-21 Bison was a no show. The under-rated DRFM of F-16 came up on top. The Link-16 system worked effectively Erieye AWAC's and DA-20 EW aircraft. The ALQ-213 EW system combined with ALE-47 CM system installed in F-16's proved its potency. PAF will still strive to upgrade its F-16's or acquire more, since F-16's versatility for up gradation makes it a suitable candidate for further induction.

PAF could have gone ahead and paid the asked amount for more F-16's, yet it chose to replace older F-7's with newer JF-17's and that is money well spent. While IAF advertises more and more about future induction, PAF is not hampered by an aircraft like Tejas which has no certain future in IAF. JF-17 has a potential for upgrade just like F-16 and PAF will exploit it fully through Block III.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Signalian said:


> The points i'm trying to highlight are multiple plus that not all acquisitions and upgrades can be done simultaneously.
> 
> Think about it, PAF has added 5 JF-17 squadrons and 1 F-16 Squadron from Jordan into inventory apart from SPADA 2000 AD system. This amounts to around 115-120 aircrafts since 2010. JF-17's were not built for free, neither F-16 ADF were acquired for free. Project Azm is also going side by side. So when someone stands up and starts saying that where did funds go? maybe we should ask from where did the funds come to buy these 100+ aircrafts. Maybe when some Indian member starts speaking about economics of Pakistan and no funds to buy new aircrafts, he should be reminded that PAF has bought these aircrafts from allotted funds , so PAF is not cash stripped, its thrifty. This is actually something that bothers IAF alot- PAF replacing older aircrafts swiftly as well as raising new squadrons in past decade, while IAF is short of sanctioned squadrons. Those members want to know where did the funds of PAF go after earthquake, should realize that PAF didn't replace older aircrafts neither raised these 6 squadrons for free.
> 
> In all totality, PAF also added 32 new and used F-16's since 2010, which were part of FMF. So thats an addition of 150 fighter aircrafts in past 10 years or so. These 32 aircrafts are concessional or funded.
> 
> Honestly, PAF has done more than enough but members here want more. J-11, J-16, SU-35, F-16 V, JH-7B, J-10C....the appetite is non-ending. If IAF is going for a shopping spree,it should not insecure members here that PAF should do the same. Has this thinking pattern generated from seeing different planned inductions of IAF ? modernization of F-16's and new blocks coming out ? 5th gen aircraft R&D by few countries ike ROK, Turkey etc ?
> 
> Do JF-17 and F-16 start to seem meager in front of Rafale ? They also didnt seem enough in front of 240 SU-30 MKI's. And then there are Mig-29's and Mirage-2000's and Tejas. With so many types, even then Rafale is needed for IAF. This arms race is never ending. F-16 MLU and F-16 Block 52+ pose a real headache to IAF already. The way PAF deploys these F-16's and IAF will never sit tight even after acquiring Rafale. IAF will next ask for 5th gen aircraft and upgrades for Rafale and Tejas or SU 30 MKI. IAF is already looking for more Mirage 2000's. After that IAF would want 6th gen aircraft. Do you see who is insecure here ? IAF, not PAF.
> 
> The PAF Mirage-III and Mirage-V are under rated; old, obsolete, nearing end life, requiring replacement, crash rate going high ! The same Mirage carries ALCM and a major weapon payload which makes F-16 envious. I don't doubt that these need replacement, yes they do,but striking them off from the book is a mistake most members make here, IAF knows these are lethal and potent aircrafts. These Mirages just visited India recently and arrived back unscathed, but the feeling of a brand new bird in PAF give a security, a relief to hearts, doesn't it ? Whenever a Mirage or F-7 crash takes place, shouting on PDF starts for J-10, SU 35, JH-7B.
> 
> There are 4 squadrons of F-16's, apart from Aggressor Squadron. These are hard pressed to conduct all types of roles. Air superiority, air defence, escort, interdiction, ground strikes, tactical attack and Naval strike if necessary. The main concern for them is sanctions, non up gradation and non acquisition however PAF seems content with their performance. There was a time when Indian members here used to say Mig-21 Bison can take out PAF F-16's easily. Times have changed. PAF and PAF's F-16 are not the same. The mechanically steered Pulse Doppler radar of F-16 has proved effective against Passive electrically steered Pulse Doppler radar of SU 30 MKI. The Israeli Elta M8222 jamming pod of Mig-21 Bison was a no show. The under-rated DRFM of F-16 came up on top. The Link-16 system worked effectively Erieye AWAC's and DA-20 EW aircraft. The ALQ-213 EW system combined with ALE-47 CM system installed in F-16's proved its potency. PAF will still strive to upgrade its F-16's or acquire more, since F-16's versatility for up gradation makes it a suitable candidate for further induction.
> 
> PAF could have gone ahead and paid the asked amount for more F-16's, yet it chose to replace older F-7's with newer JF-17's and that is money well spent. While IAF advertises more and more about future induction, PAF is not hampered by an aircraft like Tejas which has no certain future in IAF. JF-17 has a potential for upgrade just like F-16 and PAF will exploit if through Block III.


It's also worth noting that just as the Rafale is on the IAF's roadmap, the PAF's roadmap has Project Azm (i.e., a FGF/NGF). Sure, it'll come a bit later, but it's there as a light at the end of the tunnel (with some lights before it in the form of the Block-III).

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## CriticalThought

Signalian said:


> The points i'm trying to highlight are multiple plus that not all acquisitions and upgrades can be done simultaneously.
> 
> Think about it, PAF has added 5 JF-17 squadrons and 1 F-16 Squadron from Jordan into inventory apart from SPADA 2000 AD system. This amounts to around 115-120 aircrafts since 2010. JF-17's were not built for free, neither F-16 ADF were acquired for free. Project Azm is also going side by side. So when someone stands up and starts saying that where did funds go? maybe we should ask from where did the funds come to buy these 100+ aircrafts. Maybe when some Indian member starts speaking about economics of Pakistan and no funds to buy new aircrafts, he should be reminded that PAF has bought these aircrafts from allotted funds , so PAF is not cash stripped, its thrifty. This is actually something that bothers IAF alot- PAF replacing older aircrafts swiftly as well as raising new squadrons in past decade, while IAF is short of sanctioned squadrons. Those members want to know where did the funds of PAF go after earthquake, should realize that PAF didn't replace older aircrafts neither raised these 6 squadrons for free.
> 
> In all totality, PAF also added 32 new and used F-16's since 2010, which were part of FMF. So thats an addition of 150 fighter aircrafts in past 10 years or so. These 32 aircrafts are concessional or funded.
> 
> Honestly, PAF has done more than enough but members here want more. J-11, J-16, SU-35, F-16 V, JH-7B, J-10C....the appetite is non-ending. If IAF is going for a shopping spree,it should not insecure members here that PAF should do the same. Has this thinking pattern generated from seeing different planned inductions of IAF ? modernization of F-16's and new blocks coming out ? 5th gen aircraft R&D by few countries ike ROK, Turkey etc ?
> 
> Do JF-17 and F-16 start to seem meager in front of Rafale ? They also didnt seem enough in front of 240 SU-30 MKI's. And then there are Mig-29's and Mirage-2000's and Tejas. With so many types, even then Rafale is needed for IAF. This arms race is never ending. F-16 MLU and F-16 Block 52+ pose a real headache to IAF already. The way PAF deploys these F-16's and IAF will never sit tight even after acquiring Rafale. IAF will next ask for 5th gen aircraft and upgrades for Rafale and Tejas or SU 30 MKI. IAF is already looking for more Mirage 2000's. After that IAF would want 6th gen aircraft. Do you see who is insecure here ? IAF, not PAF.
> 
> The PAF Mirage-III and Mirage-V are under rated; old, obsolete, nearing end life, requiring replacement, crash rate going high ! The same Mirage carries ALCM and a major weapon payload which makes F-16 envious. I don't doubt that these need replacement, yes they do,but striking them off from the book is a mistake most members make here, IAF knows these are lethal and potent aircrafts. These Mirages just visited India recently and arrived back unscathed, but the feeling of a brand new bird in PAF give a security, a relief to hearts, doesn't it ? Whenever a Mirage or F-7 crash takes place, shouting on PDF starts for J-10, SU 35, JH-7B.
> 
> There are 4 squadrons of F-16's, apart from Aggressor Squadron. These are hard pressed to conduct all types of roles. Air superiority, air defence, escort, interdiction, ground strikes, tactical attack and Naval strike if necessary. The main concern for them is sanctions, non up gradation and non acquisition however PAF seems content with their performance. There was a time when Indian members here used to say Mig-21 Bison can take out PAF F-16's easily. Times have changed. PAF and PAF's F-16 are not the same. The mechanically steered Pulse Doppler radar of F-16 has proved effective against Passive electrically steered Pulse Doppler radar of SU 30 MKI. The Israeli Elta M8222 jamming pod of Mig-21 Bison was a no show. The under-rated DRFM of F-16 came up on top. The Link-16 system worked effectively Erieye AWAC's and DA-20 EW aircraft. The ALQ-213 EW system combined with ALE-47 CM system installed in F-16's proved its potency. PAF will still strive to upgrade its F-16's or acquire more, since F-16's versatility for up gradation makes it a suitable candidate for further induction.
> 
> PAF could have gone ahead and paid the asked amount for more F-16's, yet it chose to replace older F-7's with newer JF-17's and that is money well spent. While IAF advertises more and more about future induction, PAF is not hampered by an aircraft like Tejas which has no certain future in IAF. JF-17 has a potential for upgrade just like F-16 and PAF will exploit if through Block III.



The recent standoff against IN has exposed the soft underbelly of our naval air power. We have no long range fighters to provide cover for our ASW assets. Thus in turn means IN submarines will have free reign over a vast area of the ocean, restricting movement of our surface assets. We need something like Su-35 today, and no this is not a fanboy wish list.

Second, Azm is nothing but a wish list. First of all, the entire program is structured in a vague manner with too broad a scope. Second, it is not obvious if PAF decision makers are following the latest advances in anti-stealth technology. Given a lack of R&D, how can PAF air marshals even know the efficacy of a given stealth design against modern radars? I have serious concerns that this project will deliver too little, too late, at too great an expense. Now if they restructure it so that we see small improvements coming out consistently and getting inducted into PAF, I would say we are safe.

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## khanasifm

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/w...rce-f-16s-use-these-futuristic-1712746714/amp


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## khanasifm

https://aero-com-tech.com/products/


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## Signalian

khanasifm said:


> https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/w...rce-f-16s-use-these-futuristic-1712746714/amp


Fixing a CFT is not possible on F-16 MLU. I think its Block 50 upwards.


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## Signalian

Trailer23 said:


> https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/pa...hText=pakistan+air+force+coin&isGalleryList=G


Just making a list of F-16 A/B/C/D in PAF.

F-16 A : (28-8) + 5 + 12 = 37 
F-16 B : (12-1) + 9 + 1 = 21
F-16 C: 12
F-16 D : 6

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## Signalian

CriticalThought said:


> The recent standoff against IN has exposed the soft underbelly of our naval air power. We have no long range fighters to provide cover for our ASW assets. Thus in turn means IN submarines will have free reign over a vast area of the ocean, restricting movement of our surface assets. We need something like Su-35 today, and no this is not a fanboy wish list.
> 
> Second, Azm is nothing but a wish list. First of all, the entire program is structured in a vague manner with too broad a scope. Second, it is not obvious if PAF decision makers are following the latest advances in anti-stealth technology. Given a lack of R&D, how can PAF air marshals even know the efficacy of a given stealth design against modern radars? I have serious concerns that this project will deliver too little, too late, at too great an expense. Now if they restructure it so that we see small improvements coming out consistently and getting inducted into PAF, I would say we are safe.


post 328
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-navy-questions-thread.19818/page-22


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## CriticalThought

Signalian said:


> post 328
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-navy-questions-thread.19818/page-22


Post 329

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-navy-questions-thread.19818/page-22#post-11322371


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## Signalian

CriticalThought said:


> Post 329
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-navy-questions-thread.19818/page-22#post-11322371


Yup, liked it.


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## Signalian

CriticalThought said:


> Now actually let it sink into your skull.


Critical thinking just failed- Your rudeness is a definition of your own shortcoming. adios.

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## CriticalThought

Signalian said:


> Critical thinking just failed- Your rudeness is a definition of your own shortcoming. adios.



I am used to people attacking my handle when they have nothing else left to say. How about you limit yourself to greasing guns on tanks? Aspiring grunts trying to pontificate on aerial warfare is a joke.


----------



## weqi

Signalian said:


> The points i'm trying to highlight are multiple plus that not all acquisitions and upgrades can be done simultaneously.
> 
> Think about it, PAF has added 5 JF-17 squadrons and 1 F-16 Squadron from Jordan into inventory apart from SPADA 2000 AD system. This amounts to around 115-120 aircrafts since 2010. JF-17's were not built for free, neither F-16 ADF were acquired for free. Project Azm is also going side by side. So when someone stands up and starts saying that where did funds go? maybe we should ask from where did the funds come to buy these 100+ aircrafts. Maybe when some Indian member starts speaking about economics of Pakistan and no funds to buy new aircrafts, he should be reminded that PAF has bought these aircrafts from allotted funds , so PAF is not cash stripped, its thrifty. This is actually something that bothers IAF alot- PAF replacing older aircrafts swiftly as well as raising new squadrons in past decade, while IAF is short of sanctioned squadrons. Those members want to know where did the funds of PAF go after earthquake, should realize that PAF didn't replace older aircrafts neither raised these 6 squadrons for free.
> 
> In all totality, PAF also added 32 new and used F-16's since 2010, which were part of FMF. So thats an addition of 150 fighter aircrafts in past 10 years or so. These 32 aircrafts are concessional or funded.
> 
> Honestly, PAF has done more than enough but members here want more. J-11, J-16, SU-35, F-16 V, JH-7B, J-10C....the appetite is non-ending. If IAF is going for a shopping spree,it should not insecure members here that PAF should do the same. Has this thinking pattern generated from seeing different planned inductions of IAF ? modernization of F-16's and new blocks coming out ? 5th gen aircraft R&D by few countries ike ROK, Turkey etc ?
> 
> Do JF-17 and F-16 start to seem meager in front of Rafale ? They also didnt seem enough in front of 240 SU-30 MKI's. And then there are Mig-29's and Mirage-2000's and Tejas. With so many types, even then Rafale is needed for IAF. This arms race is never ending. F-16 MLU and F-16 Block 52+ pose a real headache to IAF already. The way PAF deploys these F-16's and IAF will never sit tight even after acquiring Rafale. IAF will next ask for 5th gen aircraft and upgrades for Rafale and Tejas or SU 30 MKI. IAF is already looking for more Mirage 2000's. After that IAF would want 6th gen aircraft. Do you see who is insecure here ? IAF, not PAF.
> 
> The PAF Mirage-III and Mirage-V are under rated; old, obsolete, nearing end life, requiring replacement, crash rate going high ! The same Mirage carries ALCM and a major weapon payload which makes F-16 envious. I don't doubt that these need replacement, yes they do,but striking them off from the book is a mistake most members make here, IAF knows these are lethal and potent aircrafts. These Mirages just visited India recently and arrived back unscathed, but the feeling of a brand new bird in PAF give a security, a relief to hearts, doesn't it ? Whenever a Mirage or F-7 crash takes place, shouting on PDF starts for J-10, SU 35, JH-7B.
> 
> There are 4 squadrons of F-16's, apart from Aggressor Squadron. These are hard pressed to conduct all types of roles. Air superiority, air defence, escort, interdiction, ground strikes, tactical attack and Naval strike if necessary. The main concern for them is sanctions, non up gradation and non acquisition however PAF seems content with their performance. There was a time when Indian members here used to say Mig-21 Bison can take out PAF F-16's easily. Times have changed. PAF and PAF's F-16 are not the same. The mechanically steered Pulse Doppler radar of F-16 has proved effective against Passive electrically steered Pulse Doppler radar of SU 30 MKI. The Israeli Elta M8222 jamming pod of Mig-21 Bison was a no show. The under-rated DRFM of F-16 came up on top. The Link-16 system worked effectively Erieye AWAC's and DA-20 EW aircraft. The ALQ-213 EW system combined with ALE-47 CM system installed in F-16's proved its potency. PAF will still strive to upgrade its F-16's or acquire more, since F-16's versatility for up gradation makes it a suitable candidate for further induction.
> 
> PAF could have gone ahead and paid the asked amount for more F-16's, yet it chose to replace older F-7's with newer JF-17's and that is money well spent. While IAF advertises more and more about future induction, PAF is not hampered by an aircraft like Tejas which has no certain future in IAF. JF-17 has a potential for upgrade just like F-16 and PAF will exploit it fully through Block III.





Signalian said:


> The points i'm trying to highlight are multiple plus that not all acquisitions and upgrades can be done simultaneously.
> 
> Think about it, PAF has added 5 JF-17 squadrons and 1 F-16 Squadron from Jordan into inventory apart from SPADA 2000 AD system. This amounts to around 115-120 aircrafts since 2010. JF-17's were not built for free, neither F-16 ADF were acquired for free. Project Azm is also going side by side. So when someone stands up and starts saying that where did funds go? maybe we should ask from where did the funds come to buy these 100+ aircrafts. Maybe when some Indian member starts speaking about economics of Pakistan and no funds to buy new aircrafts, he should be reminded that PAF has bought these aircrafts from allotted funds , so PAF is not cash stripped, its thrifty. This is actually something that bothers IAF alot- PAF replacing older aircrafts swiftly as well as raising new squadrons in past decade, while IAF is short of sanctioned squadrons. Those members want to know where did the funds of PAF go after earthquake, should realize that PAF didn't replace older aircrafts neither raised these 6 squadrons for free.
> 
> In all totality, PAF also added 32 new and used F-16's since 2010, which were part of FMF. So thats an addition of 150 fighter aircrafts in past 10 years or so. These 32 aircrafts are concessional or funded.
> 
> Honestly, PAF has done more than enough but members here want more. J-11, J-16, SU-35, F-16 V, JH-7B, J-10C....the appetite is non-ending. If IAF is going for a shopping spree,it should not insecure members here that PAF should do the same. Has this thinking pattern generated from seeing different planned inductions of IAF ? modernization of F-16's and new blocks coming out ? 5th gen aircraft R&D by few countries ike ROK, Turkey etc ?
> 
> Do JF-17 and F-16 start to seem meager in front of Rafale ? They also didnt seem enough in front of 240 SU-30 MKI's. And then there are Mig-29's and Mirage-2000's and Tejas. With so many types, even then Rafale is needed for IAF. This arms race is never ending. F-16 MLU and F-16 Block 52+ pose a real headache to IAF already. The way PAF deploys these F-16's and IAF will never sit tight even after acquiring Rafale. IAF will next ask for 5th gen aircraft and upgrades for Rafale and Tejas or SU 30 MKI. IAF is already looking for more Mirage 2000's. After that IAF would want 6th gen aircraft. Do you see who is insecure here ? IAF, not PAF.
> 
> The PAF Mirage-III and Mirage-V are under rated; old, obsolete, nearing end life, requiring replacement, crash rate going high ! The same Mirage carries ALCM and a major weapon payload which makes F-16 envious. I don't doubt that these need replacement, yes they do,but striking them off from the book is a mistake most members make here, IAF knows these are lethal and potent aircrafts. These Mirages just visited India recently and arrived back unscathed, but the feeling of a brand new bird in PAF give a security, a relief to hearts, doesn't it ? Whenever a Mirage or F-7 crash takes place, shouting on PDF starts for J-10, SU 35, JH-7B.
> 
> There are 4 squadrons of F-16's, apart from Aggressor Squadron. These are hard pressed to conduct all types of roles. Air superiority, air defence, escort, interdiction, ground strikes, tactical attack and Naval strike if necessary. The main concern for them is sanctions, non up gradation and non acquisition however PAF seems content with their performance. There was a time when Indian members here used to say Mig-21 Bison can take out PAF F-16's easily. Times have changed. PAF and PAF's F-16 are not the same. The mechanically steered Pulse Doppler radar of F-16 has proved effective against Passive electrically steered Pulse Doppler radar of SU 30 MKI. The Israeli Elta M8222 jamming pod of Mig-21 Bison was a no show. The under-rated DRFM of F-16 came up on top. The Link-16 system worked effectively Erieye AWAC's and DA-20 EW aircraft. The ALQ-213 EW system combined with ALE-47 CM system installed in F-16's proved its potency. PAF will still strive to upgrade its F-16's or acquire more, since F-16's versatility for up gradation makes it a suitable candidate for further induction.
> 
> PAF could have gone ahead and paid the asked amount for more F-16's, yet it chose to replace older F-7's with newer JF-17's and that is money well spent. While IAF advertises more and more about future induction, PAF is not hampered by an aircraft like Tejas which has no certain future in IAF. JF-17 has a potential for upgrade just like F-16 and PAF will exploit it fully through Block III.



you downed Indians with old rusted swords imagine with new shining western made if you got to succeed few of them


----------



## Trailer23

*Mitsubishi F-2 (the F-16 of Japan)*

Developed by: _Mitsubishi Heavy Industries & General Dynamics (now Lockheed Martin)_







Check Timecode: *2:42*

It has a interesting canopy. I've never seen it on a F-16. Kinda like the F-4 Phantom.

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## mingle

RMAF bought 25 blk 70 with package about 3.7 billion


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## Khafee

mingle said:


> RMAF bought 25 blk 70 with package about 3.7 billion


Blk 72

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## Trailer23

mingle said:


> RMAF bought 25 blk 70 with package about 3.7 billion


I haven't heard about it... Is it official?


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## Khafee

Trailer23 said:


> I haven't heard about it... Is it official?



https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/morocco-f-16-block-72-new-purchase

https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/morocco-f-16-block-52-upgrade-f-16v-configuration

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## Trailer23

Khafee said:


> https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/morocco-f-16-block-72-new-purchase
> 
> https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/morocco-f-16-block-52-upgrade-f-16v-configuration


Ohhhhh…

I thought you guys were referring to the other RMAF (Royal Malaysian Air Force).

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## mingle

Khafee said:


> Blk 72


Blk 72 not blk 70? Pak was purchasing 18 blk 52 around 1.7 billions so prices pretty much same even radar and tech improved?

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## baqai

Would it be safe to say F-16 has been the most successful export of US till now?

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## weqi

Trailer23 said:


> *Mitsubishi F-2 (the F-16 of Japan)*
> 
> Developed by: _Mitsubishi Heavy Industries & General Dynamics (now Lockheed Martin)_
> 
> View attachment 553048
> 
> 
> Check Timecode: *2:42*
> 
> It has a interesting canopy. I've never seen it on a F-16. Kinda like the F-4 Phantom.


yeah nice bird i forgot this can it be offered to Pakistan



Trailer23 said:


> *Mitsubishi F-2 (the F-16 of Japan)*
> 
> Developed by: _Mitsubishi Heavy Industries & General Dynamics (now Lockheed Martin)_
> 
> View attachment 553048
> 
> 
> Check Timecode: *2:42*
> 
> It has a interesting canopy. I've never seen it on a F-16. Kinda like the F-4 Phantom.


f-16 has better frameless canopy or called bubble canopy which provide pilot comfortable vision


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## Pakistani Fighter

Signalian said:


> Just making a list of F-16 A/B/C/D in PAF.
> 
> F-16 A : (28-8) + 5 + 12 = 37
> F-16 B : (12-1) + 9 + 1 = 21
> F-16 C: 12
> F-16 D : 6


Why 8 and 1 is subtracted?


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## weqi

Trailer23 said:


> *Mitsubishi F-2 (the F-16 of Japan)*
> 
> Developed by: _Mitsubishi Heavy Industries & General Dynamics (now Lockheed Martin)_
> 
> View attachment 553048
> 
> 
> Check Timecode: *2:42*
> 
> It has a interesting canopy. I've never seen it on a F-16. Kinda like the F-4 Phantom.



IT HAS HIGHEST PRICE TAG

* AIR CRAFTS US $ (millions) *
Mirage 2000 30.60
JF-17 28.00
F-16 18.80
 F-2 127.00 
Eurofighter 125.00
J10-c 27.84


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## GriffinsRule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Why 8 and 1 is subtracted?


Crashes


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## Pakistani Fighter

GriffinsRule said:


> Crashes


That is too much crashes



weqi said:


> IT HAS HIGHEST PRICE TAG
> 
> * AIR CRAFTS US $ (millions) *
> Mirage 2000 30.60
> JF-17 28.00
> F-16 18.80
> F-2 127.00
> Eurofighter 125.00
> J10-c 27.84


F-16 and J-10C is cheaper than JF 17???



weqi said:


> IT HAS HIGHEST PRICE TAG
> 
> * AIR CRAFTS US $ (millions) *
> Mirage 2000 30.60
> JF-17 28.00
> F-16 18.80
> F-2 127.00
> Eurofighter 125.00
> J10-c 27.84


What is the price of Rafale?


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## weqi

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> That is too much crashes
> 
> 
> F-16 and J-10C is cheaper than JF 17???
> 
> 
> What is the price of Rafale?



Rafale 83.76 (avg)

F-16 and J-10C is cheaper than JF 17???


this is the estimated price at which pakistan going to export others


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## Hassan Al-Somal

alee92nawaz said:


> F-16 is a better air to air fighter and also a better bomber than JF-17. This is why it's important for us. Our airforce should go for block 72 upgrade



But in the event of a conflict or in a major war, what if the ones who sold the planes to you disable some of the features that would've given you the upper hand or even make them dysfunctional? Keep in mind Pakistan is no longer a country that just buys fighter jets; you develop them. And based on the new features that were mentioned that the JF-17 Block III will have and the close relationship with China, PAF is in a good footing of upgrading this bird.

Many other countries are also looking at this plane and will be buying them from you. This is how the PAF will generate huge funding for the subsequent upgrades of JF-17. Hopefully, the engine will be upgraded as well in addition to AESA radar and other features. Once those items are upgraded, the sale of this bird will really be felt in the market. Third world countries will no longer need to buy fighter jets from the West or Russia.

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## SSGcommandoPAK



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## Khafee

mingle said:


> Blk 72 not blk 70? Pak was purchasing 18 blk 52 around 1.7 billions so prices pretty much same even radar and tech improved?



*Blk 70 = GE engine *
F110-GE-129 = 29,000lb thrust
or 
F110-GE-132 = 32,500lb thrust

*Blk 72 = PW engine* 
F100-PW-229 = 29,000lb thrust

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## Trailer23

Khafee said:


> *Blk 70 = GE engine *
> F110-GE-129 = 29,000lb thrust
> or
> F110-GE-132 = 32,500lb thrust
> 
> *Blk 72 = PW engine*
> F100-PW-229 = 29,000lb thrust


Do we even have any F-16's with GE Engines (including the Jordanian F-16's)? I was always under the impression that all of ours are Pratt & Whitney.


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## Path-Finder

Is it possible to get all Venezuelan F16? They are probably not flying them anymore!


----------



## airomerix

Path-Finder said:


> Is it possible to get all Venezuelan F16? They are probably not flying them anymore!



Not worth it. They are in a bad shape with russian parts. 

Also will upset the Pentagon.

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## ghazi768

CriticalThought said:


> The recent standoff against IN has exposed the soft underbelly of our naval air power. We have no long range fighters to provide cover for our ASW assets. Thus in turn means IN submarines will have free reign over a vast area of the ocean, restricting movement of our surface assets. We need something like Su-35 today, and no this is not a fanboy wish list.
> 
> Second, Azm is nothing but a wish list. First of all, the entire program is structured in a vague manner with too broad a scope. Second, it is not obvious if PAF decision makers are following the latest advances in anti-stealth technology. Given a lack of R&D, how can PAF air marshals even know the efficacy of a given stealth design against modern radars? I have serious concerns that this project will deliver too little, too late, at too great an expense. Now if they restructure it so that we see small improvements coming out consistently and getting inducted into PAF, I would say we are safe.


what range, in miles or kms, you have in mind?


----------



## CriticalThought

ghazi768 said:


> what range, in miles or kms, you have in mind?



From Wikipedia you can see the following numbers. A package of 4 Su-35s can accompany a team of P-3 Orions and cover a wide area. The Flankers would provide top cover. If you throw air-to-air refuelling into the mix, a few packages would be enough to cover the entire Northern Arabian Sea.

Su-35

*Performance*


*Maximum speed:* 
*At altitude:* Mach 2.25 (2,400 km/h; 1,490 mph)
*At sea level:* Mach 1.13 (1,400 km/h; 870 mph)

*Range:* 
*At altitude:* 3,600 km (2,240 mi; 1,940 nmi)
*At sea level:* 1,580 km (980 mi; 850 nmi)

*Combat radius:* around 1,600 km[179] (932 mi; 810 nmi)
*Ferry range:* 4,500 km (2,800 mi; 2,430 nmi) with 2 external fuel tanks
*Service ceiling:* 18,000 m (59,100 ft)
P-3 Orion

*Performance*


*Maximum speed:* 411 kn[1] (750 km/h)
*Cruise speed:* 328 kn[1] (610 km/h)
*Range:* 2,380 nmi radius[1] (4,400 km)
*Combat radius:* 1,346 nmi[1] (2,490 km) three hours on-station at 1,500 feet
*Ferry range:* 4,830 nmi[99] (8,944 km)
*Endurance:* 16 hours[99]
*Service ceiling:* 28,300 ft[1] (8,625 m)


----------



## ghazi768

CriticalThought said:


> From Wikipedia you can see the following numbers. A package of 4 Su-35s can accompany a team of P-3 Orions and cover a wide area. The Flankers would provide top cover. If you throw air-to-air refuelling into the mix, a few packages would be enough to cover the entire Northern Arabian Sea.
> 
> Su-35
> 
> *Performance*
> 
> 
> *Maximum speed:*
> *At altitude:* Mach 2.25 (2,400 km/h; 1,490 mph)
> *At sea level:* Mach 1.13 (1,400 km/h; 870 mph)
> 
> *Range:*
> *At altitude:* 3,600 km (2,240 mi; 1,940 nmi)
> *At sea level:* 1,580 km (980 mi; 850 nmi)
> 
> *Combat radius:* around 1,600 km[179] (932 mi; 810 nmi)
> *Ferry range:* 4,500 km (2,800 mi; 2,430 nmi) with 2 external fuel tanks
> *Service ceiling:* 18,000 m (59,100 ft)
> P-3 Orion
> 
> *Performance*
> 
> 
> *Maximum speed:* 411 kn[1] (750 km/h)
> *Cruise speed:* 328 kn[1] (610 km/h)
> *Range:* 2,380 nmi radius[1] (4,400 km)
> *Combat radius:* 1,346 nmi[1] (2,490 km) three hours on-station at 1,500 feet
> *Ferry range:* 4,830 nmi[99] (8,944 km)
> *Endurance:* 16 hours[99]
> *Service ceiling:* 28,300 ft[1] (8,625 m)


Thanks, you still did not answer my question. In what you shared, Su-35 is having a 1600 km combat radius, is it the range you have in mind?


----------



## CriticalThought

ghazi768 said:


> Thanks, you still did not answer my question. In what you shared, Su-35 is having a 1600 km combat radius, is it the range you have in mind?



I don't get your question about 'what range you have in mind'?


----------



## Raider 21

airomerix said:


> Not worth it. They are in a bad shape with russian parts.
> 
> Also will upset the Pentagon.


They are flying them regularly with parts from Israel, mostly through the black market.


----------



## M.AsfandYar

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> That is too much crashes
> 
> 
> F-16 and J-10C is cheaper than JF 17???
> 
> 
> What is the price of Rafale?


those prices are old. That was the price of F16 in 1998.


----------



## SQ8

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> That is too much crashes
> 
> 
> F-16 and J-10C is cheaper than JF 17???
> 
> 
> What is the price of Rafale?


How is it too many crashes?
Do you have comparable data for a F-16 fleet undergoing similar flight hours?


----------



## airomerix

P


Knuckles said:


> They are flying them regularly with parts from Israel, mostly through the black market.


Paying through their nose to keep them up. All of things go wrong in black market support.


----------



## Raider 21

airomerix said:


> P
> 
> Paying through their nose to keep them up. All of things go wrong in black market support.


Definitely


----------



## fatman17

Industry

Lockheed Martin transfers F-16 production to South Carolina

Beth Stevenson, London - Jane's Defence Industry

24 April 2019

Follow

RSS


Lockheed Martin has opened its new production facility for the F-16 Fighting Falcon in Greenville, South Carolina, with production of the Block 70 variant expected to begin at the site by the end of 2019.

Tooling and other equipment that was previously housed in the company’s Fort Worth, Texas facility has been transferred to the Greenville hangar that has been refurbished, and this site will now be the home of F-16 production.

“This is an exciting time as we celebrate another important milestone for the F-16: the world’s most successful, combat-proven fourth-generation fighter,” Michele Evans, executive vice-president of Lockheed Martin Aeronautics, said.


----------



## araz

Trailer23 said:


> Do we even have any F-16's with GE Engines (including the Jordanian F-16's)? I was always under the impression that all of ours are Pratt & Whitney.


No.


----------



## ZedZeeshan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1122517835241140224

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1122511427389067264

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## Haroon Baloch

ZedZeeshan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1122517835241140224
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1122511427389067264



Any verified source?


----------



## CriticalThought

ZedZeeshan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1122517835241140224
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1122511427389067264



Who is this guy and what is the source of his news?


----------



## ZedZeeshan

CriticalThought said:


> Who is this guy and what is the source of his news?


Paijaan meray kaul koi source nahi haiga..!!

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## aftab_s81

This guy Mustafa Ozan is big "chorhoo" as evident from his Twitter feed.

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## Trailer23

Well it isn't news flash that the US has withheld coalition support funds from Pakistan, but where exactly did the Block 70 & the number (18) come from?

Even PDF has more sources in the PAF to know if there was talk going about... The Taliban Peace Process is a complicated one. Its not like going down to the local Custom Shop & pimping your ride (Suzuki FX).

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Dont we all day dream for more new and old F16s. Come on Trump be reasonable.

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## TheTallGuy

I thought number would be 36 F-16C/D Block 72s and 18 x PAF F-16C/D Block 52 to be upgraded to VIPER Modification.

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## airomerix

TheTallGuy said:


> I thought number would be 36 F-16C/D Block 72s and 18 x PAF F-16C/D Block 52 to be upgraded to VIPER Modification.



You just wrote down $8 Billion bill you realise that?

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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> Well it isn't news flash that the US has withheld coalition support funds from Pakistan, but where exactly did the Block 70 & the number (18) come from?
> 
> Even PDF has more sources in the PAF to know if there was talk going about... The Taliban Peace Process is a complicated one. Its not like going down to the local Custom Shop & pimping your ride (Suzuki FX).


18 follow up Block 52+ jets back from 2010 which were then reduced to 8 jets but no longer subsidized under FMS.

Where the Block 70 (should be 72) came from is no clue. They are still making Block 52+ jets for Iraq.


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## Trailer23

Knuckles said:


> They are still making Block 52+ jets for Iraq.


All 36 delivered.
27 - F-16C/IQ
09 - F-16D/IQ
The last one was delivered at the end of 2017.

02 - Losses (crashes).







September 2017
The Iraqi air force identified the pilot as _Capt. Noor Faleh Rassan Al-Khazali_ was killed when an F-16 jet crashed during a training mission in southeastern Arizona.

Roberts said the plane belonged to the Iraqi air force and that the training mission was being conducted in conjunction with the 162nd Wing, which is based at Tucson International Airport.

_Al-Khazali’s_ death was the second involving an Iraqi pilot flying an F-16 in Arizona in recent years.

In July 2015, an Iraqi brigadier general flying from the 162nd died when his F-16, a newer model recently delivered to the Iraqi air force, crashed during night training near Douglas.


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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> All 36 delivered.
> 27 - F-16C/IQ
> 09 - F-16D/IQ
> The last one was delivered at the end of 2017.
> 
> 02 - Losses (crashes).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> September 2017
> The Iraqi air force identified the pilot as _Capt. Noor Faleh Rassan Al-Khazali_ was killed when an F-16 jet crashed during a training mission in southeastern Arizona.
> 
> Roberts said the plane belonged to the Iraqi air force and that the training mission was being conducted in conjunction with the 162nd Wing, which is based at Tucson International Airport.
> 
> _Al-Khazali’s_ death was the second involving an Iraqi pilot flying an F-16 in Arizona in recent years.
> 
> In July 2015, an Iraqi brigadier general flying from the 162nd died when his F-16, a newer model recently delivered to the Iraqi air force, crashed during night training near Douglas.


Nope. The second batch are still being produced. The training phase has been moved over to Iraq from Arizona ANG a few weeks ago.


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## Adam_Khan

Knuckles said:


> Nope. The second batch are still being produced. The training phase has been moved over to Iraq from Arizona ANG a few weeks ago.


Haven't the completed the delivery of F.16's recently,I think read some where on F-16.net that the last Iraqi viper crash was due to spatial disorientation.


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## Incog_nito

Why not PA gives them money for it.


MIRauf said:


> Zulu are held back due to FMF, current US Gov't is asking for hard cash.


----------



## Incog_nito

Signalian said:


> USA did mind buying from other countries and allegedly stopped a second deal of Jordanian F-16's transfer to Pakistan.


But PAF has 16 JAF F-16s


----------



## Incog_nito

Signalian said:


> Lets say PAF has 3 billion USD to spend, which i doubt it has in reality, anyways, pick one option.
> 
> 1. 50-60 x J-10C
> OR
> 2. 18-20 x F-16 V/Block 70
> OR
> 3. Upgrade all PAF F-16's to V standard
> OR
> 4. 70 x JF-17 Block III
> OR
> 5. 24-30 used F-16's and upgrade them to block 52 standard.


F-16 upgrade is a nice option. I feel PAF won't buy more than 50 Block III JF-17


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## Imran Khan

IM Ozair said:


> F-16 upgrade is a nice option. I feel PAF won't buy more than 50 Block III JF-17


they will but 100+ block3 mark my words sir


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## denel

Imran Khan said:


> they will but 100+ block3 mark my words sir


Correct; I am putting the number at 150 (blk3) + 100-110 of Jf-17 blk1/2. They need this magic number of 250 with the other retirements that will be needed.

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## Imran Khan

denel said:


> Correct; I am putting the number at 150 (blk3) + 100-110 of Jf-17 blk1/2. They need this magic number of 250 with the other retirements that will be needed.


if they can collect 200 f-7 or 200 mirages they will not stop on 150 thunders . i fact their plan was 200 f-16 in 1980s .


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## mingle

It's official now F21 is out of race in india time to start negotiations with LM again on FMF. Corrot a decent number along with used frames having V upgrades.

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## denel

With Aselsan now offering AESA replacement for F-16s, good option available. 

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...itches-aesa-radar-at-f-16-upgrade-mar-457874/

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## Army research

Keep good diplomacy with America, because when they leave Afghanistan there will be no ' direct ' cause of animosity or proxy war as is now. Then America will just sell weapons for the one single thing it exists for, ' muneh'
5 to 10 years from if our economy improves we should get the V upgrade and ask Americans to let us integrate SOM


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## Readerdefence

denel said:


> With Aselsan now offering AESA replacement for F-16s, good option available.
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...itches-aesa-radar-at-f-16-upgrade-mar-457874/


Hi denel what are the options for getting aesa for PAF as I have asked this Q with a Turkish member also but to no avail 
Will USA allow Turkish to instal AESA for PAF or in-fact on their own f16 radar upgrades 
Or any other their own invention on their fleet of F16s
Your reply will be appreciated 
Thank you


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## Signalian

Readerdefence said:


> Hi denel what are the options for getting aesa for PAF as I have asked this Q with a Turkish member also but to no avail
> Will USA allow Turkish to instal AESA for PAF or in-fact on their own f16 radar upgrades
> Or any other their own invention on their fleet of F16s
> Your reply will be appreciated
> Thank you


Highly doubt it that USA would allow Aselsan AESA but if it allows, then that would benefit both Turkey and PAF while USA may ask for a percentage. My guess is that USA would want full business for itself. Second batch of RJAF F-16's met the same fate.

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## denel

Readerdefence said:


> Hi denel what are the options for getting aesa for PAF as I have asked this Q with a Turkish member also but to no avail
> Will USA allow Turkish to instal AESA for PAF or in-fact on their own f16 radar upgrades
> Or any other their own invention on their fleet of F16s
> Your reply will be appreciated
> Thank you


Look if it was not possible then why would they go that route; this is standard practise for any system. You have to take calculated risk and lay a roadmap for upgrade path; given TAI already knows the birds, then why not?



Signalian said:


> Highly doubt it that USA would allow Aselsan AESA but if it allows, then that would benefit both Turkey and PAF while USA may ask for a percentage. My guess is that USA would want full business for itself. Second batch of RJAF F-16's met the same fate.


No, it is for you to decide; LM is trying to keep monopoly to ensure a money trail continues.

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## mingle

Signalian said:


> Highly doubt it that USA would allow Aselsan AESA but if it allows, then that would benefit both Turkey and PAF while USA may ask for a percentage. My guess is that USA would want full business for itself. Second batch of RJAF F-16's met the same fate.


Agree they will ask Pak to buy new jetts


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## GriffinsRule

Army research said:


> Keep good diplomacy with America, because when they leave Afghanistan there will be no ' direct ' cause of animosity or proxy war as is now. Then America will just sell weapons for the one single thing it exists for, ' muneh'
> 5 to 10 years from if our economy improves we should get the V upgrade and ask Americans to let us integrate SOM


Historically its been quiet the opposite. They have sold us weapons only when there was a need for them to use Pakistan. Once they leave Afghanistan, they have no reason to sell us any weapons, and their arms industry does not need our meager orders. On top of that, there is no reason for them to provide us any FMS/CSF type funds to offset any costs that would make them affordable anyways.
What is more likely to happen is, they will remove the major non-NATO ally designation, put more economic and maybe even military sanctions on us and restrict our access to financial markets and screw with our monetary policies (like we need help in that regard). 
Their long term goal is a resurgent India and Pakistan is a hindrance. Only way for Pakistan to not end up like Iran or the other Arab countries that went through the Arab Spring is to clean up our own messes and become a viable country with any say on the global level.

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## Signalian

mingle said:


> Agree they will ask Pak to buy new jetts


Not just new Jets. 
USA prefers that PAF buys new as well as used jets from USA.



denel said:


> No, it is for you to decide; LM is trying to keep monopoly to ensure a money trail continues.


Difficult to agree here. 
PAF decided on Jordan's F-16s but USA intervened. Funding has been sidelined, USA wants PAF to pay full price. 
Sir Bilal Reported possibility of F-16 Block 40's for PAF, these are flown by USAF, Bahrain, Egypt, Turkey and Korea. Amongst them, only USAF could sell as EDA, all the other countries use them as front line jets.



GriffinsRule said:


> Historically its been quiet the opposite. They have sold us weapons only when there was a need for them to use Pakistan. Once they leave Afghanistan, they have no reason to sell us any weapons, and their arms industry does not need our meager orders. On top of that, there is no reason for them to provide us any FMS/CSF type funds to offset any costs that would make them affordable anyways.
> What is more likely to happen is, they will remove the major non-NATO ally designation, put more economic and maybe even military sanctions on us and restrict our access to financial markets and screw with our monetary policies (like we need help in that regard).
> Their long term goal is a resurgent India and Pakistan is a hindrance. Only way for Pakistan to not end up like Iran or the other Arab countries that went through the Arab Spring is to clean up our own messes and become a viable country with any say on the global level.



USA can sell aircrafts to PAF, just at full price and not top line stuff (like F-16 Block 70 or F-35) Vis-a-vis India. It will be like Egypt and Israel saga. Egypt wanted F-15E's, Israel intervened. Similarly PAF' F-16 Block 52+ are less capable than F-16 Block 70/72 offered to India. For full price PAF can get 50 more F-16 Block 52+, but PAF wants for free or atleast funded. PAF can also go for used F-16's from USA.



IM Ozair said:


> But PAF has 16 JAF F-16s


13.
12 A + 1 B.

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## mingle

Signalian said:


> Not just new Jets.
> USA prefers that PAF buys new as well as used jets from USA.
> 
> 
> Difficult to agree here.
> PAF decided on Jordan's F-16s but USA intervened. Funding has been sidelined, USA wants PAF to pay full price.
> Sir Bilal Reported possibility of F-16 Block 40's for PAF, these are flown by USAF, Bahrain, Egypt, Turkey and Korea. Amongst them, only USAF could sell as EDA, all the other countries use them as front line jets.
> 
> 
> 
> USA can sell aircrafts to PAF, just at full price and not top line stuff (like F-16 Block 70 or F-35) Vis-a-vis India. It will be like Egypt and Israel saga. Egypt wanted F-15E's, Israel intervened. Similarly PAF' F-16 Block 52+ are less capable than F-16 Block 70/72 offered to India. For full price PAF can get 50 more F-16 Block 52+, but PAF wants for free or atleast funded. PAF can also go for used F-16's from USA.
> 
> 
> 13.
> 12 A + 1 B.


Well new and old we must negotiate blk 70 along with rest V upgrades. They will sell blk 70 doubt india will buy F16.


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## Trailer23

Trailer23 said:


> I wish my f#*king Lancer looked this sexy.


You know every once in a while...I feel like working on *Photoshop* - taking a break from Editing & do something crazy like this.

Imagine my car in rush hour with...this!






By the way, the above image is *Photoshop*, but the Sunshade below isn't. I had it custom made from one of my earlier designs...





@Horus @Dubious @araz @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Oscar @waz @Windjammer
@aeromerix @Ali_Baba @Falcon26 @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Gillani88 @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I S I @khansaheeb @member.exe @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @Myth_buster_1 @Rafi @Sabretooth @salman-1 @Okasha Zahid @Ozee @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Starlord @Super Falcon @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @Shane @_Sherdils_ @Umair Nawaz @war&peace @War Thunder @Vortex @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar

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## Signalian

mingle said:


> Well new and old we must negotiate blk 70 along with rest V upgrades. They will sell blk 70 doubt india will buy F16.


I am not saying that PAF shouldn't negotiate or shouldn't try to get the best F-16 variant. PAF should even ask for 18 Block 70's instead of remaining 18 Block 52+ from the CSF package. Also PAF should ask V-upgrade on any further induction of used F-16's instead of the M3/M5 MLU upgrade.

EAF eventually saw F-16 Block 52+ in service in 2012-13 after constantly following up on the issue (though only 12, compared to 100 of IAF's F-16I s of similar/better capability). After 3 years Israelis had F-35's.

Since USA is keen on keeping a balance in the Pak-Indo region, PAF could argue about IAF's Rafale acquisition and S-400 SAM system.

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## Pakhtoon yum

Trailer23 said:


> You know every once in a while...I feel like working on *Photoshop* - taking a break from Editing & do something crazy like this.
> 
> Imagine my car in rush hour with...this!
> 
> View attachment 558390
> 
> 
> By the way, the above image is *Photoshop*, but the Sunshade below isn't. I had it custom made from one of my earlier designs...
> 
> View attachment 558392
> 
> @Horus @Dubious @araz @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Oscar @waz @Windjammer
> @aeromerix @Ali_Baba @Falcon26 @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Gillani88 @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I S I @khansaheeb @member.exe @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @Myth_buster_1 @Rafi @Sabretooth @salman-1 @Okasha Zahid @Ozee @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Starlord @Super Falcon @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @Shane @_Sherdils_ @Umair Nawaz @war&peace @War Thunder @Vortex @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar


Intresting approach, for getting out of traffic


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## Signalian

Trailer23 said:


> You know every once in a while...I feel like working on *Photoshop* - taking a break from Editing & do something crazy like this.
> 
> Imagine my car in rush hour with...this!
> 
> View attachment 558390
> 
> 
> By the way, the above image is *Photoshop*, but the Sunshade below isn't. I had it custom made from one of my earlier designs...
> 
> View attachment 558392
> 
> @Horus @Dubious @araz @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Oscar @waz @Windjammer
> @aeromerix @Ali_Baba @Falcon26 @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Gillani88 @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I S I @khansaheeb @member.exe @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @Myth_buster_1 @Rafi @Sabretooth @salman-1 @Okasha Zahid @Ozee @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Starlord @Super Falcon @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @Shane @_Sherdils_ @Umair Nawaz @war&peace @War Thunder @Vortex @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar


There was TV series "Viper" in 90's i think. The missile in this Lancer is installed at the same place as the car in that series, i think a hatch used to open and it would fire something from the side or used a harpoon like towing thing, can't exactly remember.


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## Trailer23

Signalian said:


> There was TV series "Viper" in 90's i think. The missile in this Lancer is installed at the same place as the car in that series, i think a hatch used to open and it would fire something from the side or used a harpoon like towing thing, can't exactly remember.


Yeah, I remember that cheezy cgi red Dodge Viper.

I was hoping you would've compared it to James Bond or Knight Rider.


----------



## Signalian

Trailer23 said:


> Yeah, I remember that cheezy cgi red Dodge Viper.
> 
> I was hoping you would've compared it to James Bond or Knight Rider.


If it has an AESA, FLIR, MmW, Voice recognition etc, why not lol.

and how can you forget Knight Rider.


----------



## Trailer23

mingle said:


> It's official now F21 is out of race in india time to start negotiations with LM again on FMF. Corrot a decent number along with used frames having V upgrades.


Hold on, bro.

Yeah - I read that (The National Interest) article earlier.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...r-f-16-wont-be-joining-indias-air-force-55362

All it does is quote an Indian journalist saying the _likely_ winner would be the obvious choice - *Rafale*.

So, it isn't official yet & nowhere near to the final decision. Bear in mind that the change in Government could play a major role on which company gets the contract. The current (_BJP_), are happy with the _Rafales_ - for good reason.

On the flipside, _Rahul Ghandi's_ party (_Congress_) have spoken against the deal...and if were to come in power, might change the dynamics completely.

But at the moment, as far as *Lockheed Martin* is concerned, they are _still_ very much in the race - even if its a lost cause, or so it may appear.

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## mingle

Signalian said:


> I am not saying that PAF shouldn't negotiate or shouldn't try to get the best F-16 variant. PAF should even ask for 18 Block 70's instead of remaining 18 Block 52+ from the CSF package. Also PAF should ask V-upgrade on any further induction of used F-16's instead of the M3/M5 MLU upgrade.
> 
> EAF eventually saw F-16 Block 52+ in service in 2012-13 after constantly following up on the issue (though only 12, compared to 100 of IAF's F-16I s of similar/better capability). After 3 years Israelis had F-35's.
> 
> Since USA is keen on keeping a balance in the Pak-Indo region, PAF could argue about IAF's Rafale acquisition and S-400 SAM system.


Current US Govt probably won't care about balance between India and Pak they r pro business and big carporation guys who like deals nothing more. If U see this administration way of playing games shows what I mentioned.Pak should throw carrot with decent number Of new jet along buying planes of PIA because PIA is gearing up for 45 new jets. Trump administration already courting through theior mission in islamabad to buy from Boeing. If we tie this with LM as well chances r good that we may have subsidy over F16s FMF. But for 18 planes I doubt they will but if that number is around 60 along old blk 40 it would be one big package both civil and military.Boing lost 21% revenue due to Max scandal remember PIA offer from Airbus and from Qatar airline to taking over lease of theior existing fleet of 777 but other Gulf states not letting it happen. Lets see how it plays out khan is good player he wil get good deal keep watching.



Trailer23 said:


> Hold on, bro.
> 
> Yeah - I read that (The National Interest) article earlier.
> https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...r-f-16-wont-be-joining-indias-air-force-55362
> 
> All it does is quote an Indian journalist saying the _likely_ winner would be the obvious choice - *Rafale*.
> 
> So, it isn't official yet & nowhere near to the final decision. Bear in mind that the change in Government could play a major role on which company gets the contract. The current (_BJP_), are happy with the _Rafales_ - for good reason.
> 
> On the flipside, _Rahul Ghandi's_ party (_Congress_) have spoken against the deal...and if were to come in power, might change the dynamics completely.
> 
> But at the moment, as far as *Lockheed Martin* is concerned, they are _still_ very much in the race - even if its a lost cause, or so it may appear.


LM is vendor they will say this it's more like a political statement nothing more.For india Rafale is Way farward now u know why IAF was saying F16 down and Modi was calling Rafale hota to result Kuch aur hota.


----------



## Trailer23

mingle said:


> LM is vendor they will say this it's more like a political statement nothing more.


I hope you're right. I would like nothing more than to see someone from Lockheed Martin in Islamabad - pissed off with India & offer us - EVERTYTHING.

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## Signalian

mingle said:


> Current US Govt probably won't care about balance between India and Pak they r pro business and big carporation guys who like deals nothing more. If U see this administration way of playing games shows what I mentioned.Pak should throw carrot with decent number Of new jet along buying planes of PIA because PIA is gearing up for 45 new jets. Trump administration already courting through theior mission in islamabad to buy from Boeing. If we tie this with LM as well chances r good that we may have subsidy over F16s FMF. But for 18 planes I doubt they will but if that number is around 60 along old blk 40 it would be one big package both civil and military.Boing lost 21% revenue due to Max scandal remember PIA offer from Airbus and from Qatar airline to taking over lease of theior existing fleet of 777 but other Gulf states not letting it happen. Lets see how it plays out khan is good player he wil get good deal keep watching.


Yar maybe I am not updated in the way that you are, so you look at things differently and better than what i see. From Pakistan's POV, if PAF and IK join together and pursue this issue, then no matter whichever USA admin is in power, matters can be substantiated and resolved. I think something is happening for PAF behind the scenes though.

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## mingle

Signalian said:


> Yar maybe I am not updated in the way that you are, so you look at things differently and better than what i see. From Pakistan's POV, if PAF and IK join together and pursue this issue, then no matter whichever USA admin is in power, matters can be substantiated and resolved. I think something is happening for PAF behind the scenes though.


Khan I believe will link Boeing with LM like trade off we buy ur plane what u offer US 45 planes is good number for crippling Boeing. But PAF will love more F16s with AESA I believe Putin visit is more a Hoax. S400 we can tackle with Chinese HQ 9.after Royal marraco airforce order there is no more F16s orders in pipe line either india buy or plant will be close simple


----------



## Path-Finder

Trailer23 said:


> You know every once in a while...I feel like working on *Photoshop* - taking a break from Editing & do something crazy like this.
> 
> Imagine my car in rush hour with...this!
> 
> View attachment 558390
> 
> 
> By the way, the above image is *Photoshop*, but the Sunshade below isn't. I had it custom made from one of my earlier designs...
> 
> View attachment 558392
> 
> @Horus @Dubious @araz @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Oscar @waz @Windjammer
> @aeromerix @Ali_Baba @Falcon26 @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Gillani88 @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I S I @khansaheeb @member.exe @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @Myth_buster_1 @Rafi @Sabretooth @salman-1 @Okasha Zahid @Ozee @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Starlord @Super Falcon @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @Shane @_Sherdils_ @Umair Nawaz @war&peace @War Thunder @Vortex @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar



you get my respect just for owning a Lancer!


----------



## mingle

Trailer23 said:


> I hope you're right. I would like nothing more than to see someone from Lockheed Martin in Islamabad - pissed off with India & offer us - EVERTYTHING.
> 
> View attachment 558394


They will probably F16 is still theior kamao putter.


----------



## untitled

Trailer23 said:


> You know every once in a while...I feel like working on *Photoshop* - taking a break from Editing & do something crazy like this.
> 
> Imagine my car in rush hour with...this!
> 
> View attachment 558390
> 
> 
> By the way, the above image is *Photoshop*, but the Sunshade below isn't. I had it custom made from one of my earlier designs...
> 
> View attachment 558392
> 
> @Horus @Dubious @araz @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Oscar @waz @Windjammer
> @aeromerix @Ali_Baba @Falcon26 @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Gillani88 @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I S I @khansaheeb @member.exe @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @Myth_buster_1 @Rafi @Sabretooth @salman-1 @Okasha Zahid @Ozee @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Starlord @Super Falcon @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @Shane @_Sherdils_ @Umair Nawaz @war&peace @War Thunder @Vortex @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar


Hmm... no refueling probe. Try to install one. A tanker descending from the heavens, hovering above your car and refueling it over the highway. That is definitely a sight to behold


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## sathya

Signalian said:


> Yar maybe I am not updated in the way that you are, so you look at things differently and better than what i see. From Pakistan's POV, if PAF and IK join together and pursue this issue, then no matter whichever USA admin is in power, matters can be substantiated and resolved. I think something is happening for PAF behind the scenes though.



Simple ~ Money speaks


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## Signalian

sathya said:


> Simple ~ Money speaks


Not really.
Agreement/undertaking/commitment/Contracts/deals should be kept. USA didn't.


----------



## Shane

Trailer23 said:


> You know every once in a while...I feel like working on *Photoshop* - taking a break from Editing & do something crazy like this.
> 
> Imagine my car in rush hour with...this!
> 
> View attachment 558390
> 
> 
> By the way, the above image is *Photoshop*, but the Sunshade below isn't. I had it custom made from one of my earlier designs...
> 
> View attachment 558392
> 
> @Horus @Dubious @araz @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Knuckles @Oscar @waz @Windjammer
> @aeromerix @Ali_Baba @Falcon26 @Haroon Baloch @HRK @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @Maxpane @crankthatskunk @Gillani88 @graphican @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I S I @khansaheeb @member.exe @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @Myth_buster_1 @Rafi @Sabretooth @salman-1 @Okasha Zahid @Ozee @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @Path-Finder @PWFI @Starlord @Super Falcon @TheTallGuy @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @Shane @_Sherdils_ @Umair Nawaz @war&peace @War Thunder @Vortex @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar


Hmm, is that Sharjah Corniche street area in the back drop? My brother used to live in Bukhatir Tower.


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## Trailer23

Shane said:


> Hmm, is that Sharjah Corniche street area in the back drop? My brother used to live in Bukhatir Tower.


Not exactly. Its actually Al Khan Corniche, which links with Mamzar (Dubai).

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## ziaulislam

Signalian said:


> I am not saying that PAF shouldn't negotiate or shouldn't try to get the best F-16 variant. PAF should even ask for 18 Block 70's instead of remaining 18 Block 52+ from the CSF package. Also PAF should ask V-upgrade on any further induction of used F-16's instead of the M3/M5 MLU upgrade.
> 
> EAF eventually saw F-16 Block 52+ in service in 2012-13 after constantly following up on the issue (though only 12, compared to 100 of IAF's F-16I s of similar/better capability). After 3 years Israelis had F-35's.
> 
> Since USA is keen on keeping a balance in the Pak-Indo region, PAF could argue about IAF's Rafale acquisition and S-400 SAM system.


I disagree with your thinking 
Why has not this logic applied to taiwan? When they have been refused weapons

Donald trump approved weapon purely to boasts sales(economical measure)

So you see its more likley that usa would want this gap to increase and allow india overwhelming power rather than keeping it narrow


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## Readerdefence

Signalian said:


> Highly doubt it that USA would allow Aselsan AESA but if it allows, then that would benefit both Turkey and PAF while USA may ask for a percentage. My guess is that USA would want full business for itself. Second batch of RJAF F-16's met the same fate.


Hi signalian thx for your reply you have my doubts cleared that’s the line I’m also towing 
What’s the American interest to empower Turkish company to install indigenous gadgets on 
Their products either They pay Americans something or give them some good to offer the goodies 
To their desired countries 
I’m highly sceptical about getting AESA from Turkish company without prior approval from LM
Of USA 
Thank you

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## denel

Signalian said:


> Not just new Jets.
> USA prefers that PAF buys new as well as used jets from USA.
> 
> 
> Difficult to agree here.
> PAF decided on Jordan's F-16s but USA intervened. Funding has been sidelined, USA wants PAF to pay full price.
> Sir Bilal Reported possibility of F-16 Block 40's for PAF, these are flown by USAF, Bahrain, Egypt, Turkey and Korea. Amongst them, only USAF could sell as EDA, all the other countries use them as front line jets.
> 
> 
> 
> USA can sell aircrafts to PAF, just at full price and not top line stuff (like F-16 Block 70 or F-35) Vis-a-vis India. It will be like Egypt and Israel saga. Egypt wanted F-15E's, Israel intervened. Similarly PAF' F-16 Block 52+ are less capable than F-16 Block 70/72 offered to India. For full price PAF can get 50 more F-16 Block 52+, but PAF wants for free or atleast funded. PAF can also go for used F-16's from USA.
> 
> 
> 13.
> 12 A + 1 B.


Not following you, are you saying more jets could follow via EDA?


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## Trailer23

India seem to be in a tight fix, themselves. Not only are they (probably/most certainly) not going to go for the F-21, which will surly upset the US - but they also have to deal with the US in regard to the Sanctions looming over their heads for procuring Oil from Iran.

Not sure what hand PAK will play in order to get new/used jets from the US.

I wish there was more clarity as to what is the Defence Budget & how much of it is allotted to the PAF - annually.


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## Silicon0000

Wishes, wishes, wishes & wishes


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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> Not exactly. Its actually Al Khan Corniche, which links with Mamzar (Dubai).


I remember when it started developing. Now it has changed so much between 15 years and now. Mamzar park brings back a lot of BBQ memories (and one unique airshow with the Red Arrows).


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## Signalian

denel said:


> Not following you, are you saying more jets could follow via EDA?


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...an-russia-france.434792/page-17#post-11409031



ziaulislam said:


> I disagree with your thinking
> Why has not this logic applied to taiwan? When they have been refused weapons
> 
> Donald trump approved weapon purely to boasts sales(economical measure)
> 
> So you see its more likley that usa would want this gap to increase and allow india overwhelming power rather than keeping it narrow


how is Taiwan related to this scenario?

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## ziaulislam

Signalian said:


> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...an-russia-france.434792/page-17#post-11409031
> 
> 
> how is Taiwan related to this scenario?


the delusion that Pakistanis have that USA want parity of power in south asia..nothing can be far from truth

the same delusion reminds of the USA fleet of 1971

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## Signalian

ziaulislam said:


> the delusion that Pakistanis have that USA want parity of power in south asia..nothing can be far from truth
> 
> the same delusion reminds of the USA fleet of 1971


Irrelevant


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## ziaulislam

Signalian said:


> Irrelevant


congress is hostile to pakistan so no executive can give pakistan f16s..even if they want to..it is as simple as that..
why is congress hostile..
decades of poor diplomacy, WOT duplicity by both sides, propoganda and intense lobbying from india

now is this relevant??

you saw what happened to Obama push



Signalian said:


> Since USA is keen on keeping a balance in the Pak-Indo region, PAF could argue about IAF's Rafale acquisition and S-400 SAM system.


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## Signalian

ziaulislam said:


> congress is hostile to pakistan so no executive can give pakistan f16s..even if they want to..it is as simple as that..
> why is congress hostile..
> decades of poor diplomacy, WOT duplicity by both sides, propoganda and intense lobbying from india
> 
> now is this relevant??
> 
> you saw what happened to Obama push


You are trying so hard that you keep hopping from one point to another without thinking what you want to say, take a breath. 
In F-16's case, CSF needs to be sorted out, procurement of F-16 itself is not an issue currently from USA.

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## ziaulislam

Signalian said:


> You are trying so hard that you keep hopping from one point to another without thinking what you want to say, take a breath.
> In F-16's case, CSF needs to be sorted out, procurement of F-16 itself is not an issue currently from USA.


fact 1: congress is hostile to pakistan and thus will not allow FMF any more
facts 2: *you mentioned USA want a parity in indo--pak scenrio which is wrong(this started the discussion)*
fact 3: CSF fund is dead, if resumed will need approval from congress which again is going to be difficult
fact 4: india is investing heavily in lobbying in USA which pakistan ignores
fact 5: afghan leverage that pakistan has is strong but USA has a stronger IMF leverage
Fact 6: most pakistanis live in delusions of early 2000s and 1970s that USA favours pakistan, nothing can be far from the turth

*
best case scenario USA allows full pay f16s(too expensive not worth it anymore, the reason why PAF walked from B52) or used f16s via EDA(less likley, as even israel sales were blocked)*


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## Signalian

ziaulislam said:


> fact 1: congress is hostile to pakistan and thus will not allow FMF any more
> facts 2: *you mentioned USA want a parity in indo--pak scenrio which is wrong(this started the discussion)*
> fact 3: CSF fund is dead, if resumed will need approval from congress which again is going to be difficult
> fact 4: india is investing heavily in lobbying in USA which pakistan ignores
> fact 5: afghan leverage that pakistan has is strong but USA has a stronger IMF leverage
> Fact 6: most pakistanis live in delusions of early 2000s and 1970s that USA favours pakistan, nothing can be far from the turth
> 
> *
> best case scenario USA allows full pay f16s(too expensive not worth it anymore, the reason why PAF walked from B52) or used f16s via EDA(less likley, as even israel sales were blocked)*


Apart from your point 1, all other points are wrong. Point 3 is debatable.


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## ziaulislam

Signalian said:


> Apart from your point 1, all other points are wrong. Point 3 is debatable.


the fact that Pakistan denies point 4 exists, is the bases of all troubles we are in..and talking to you proves it..


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## Signalian

ziaulislam said:


> the fact that Pakistan denies point 4 exists, is the bases of all troubles we are in..and talking to you proves it..


I agree to disagree with you.

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## SABRE

ziaulislam said:


> fact 1: congress is hostile to pakistan and thus will not allow FMF any more
> facts 2: *you mentioned USA want a parity in indo--pak scenrio which is wrong(this started the discussion)*
> fact 3: CSF fund is dead, if resumed will need approval from congress which again is going to be difficult
> fact 4: india is investing heavily in lobbying in USA which pakistan ignores
> fact 5: afghan leverage that pakistan has is strong but USA has a stronger IMF leverage
> Fact 6: most pakistanis live in delusions of early 2000s and 1970s that USA favours pakistan, nothing can be far from the turth
> 
> *
> best case scenario USA allows full pay f16s(too expensive not worth it anymore, the reason why PAF walked from B52) or used f16s via EDA(less likley, as even israel sales were blocked)*



I for one agree with much of the stuff you have written and the general crux of it.

1. US Congress is indeed hostile towards Pakistan. They have been since the 1990s. But the problem is not just the Congress but the think-tanks, academics, staffers, advisors, and bureaucrats who feed into their mindset. Lobbyists have made things even worse.

2. The US de-hyphenated its Indo-Pakistan policy a long time ago and instead put Pakistan with Afghanistan (AfPak). Though AfPak has largely been a failure (much like rest of Obama's foreign policy) the US so far continues ahead with the policy. India is the US' "natural ally." Pakistan is a foreign policy problem.

3. CFS is sort of in a coma but I don't see it coming off the vent anytime soon. But it might die in the wake of US withdrawal from Afghanistan.

4. Absolutely

5. Definitely

6. Replace the word "favor" with "need." We have misplaced belief that the US "needs" us. They might dump us once they withdraw from Afghanistan, leaving us to fend for ourselves in the possible Afghan civil war/conflict in the aftermath of their withdrawal. We seem to have had the same belief in the 1980s-1990s. Look what happened after the Soviet withdrawal.

Our relations with the Chinese and the Russians are also not sitting well with D.C. Generally they wouldn't have any problem with that but the way we have been marketing our relationship with these two countries we make it sound like as an attempt to displace American influence in the region. This is really shoddy policymaking and presentation.

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## denel

Signalian said:


> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...an-russia-france.434792/page-17#post-11409031
> 
> 
> how is Taiwan related to this scenario?


If it transpires then plus AESA from TAI, it makes sense to pursue.

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## mshan44



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## Tamiyah

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 558889


Doesn't it looks a little yellowish..?


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## mshan44



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## Talon

Blk 52 from #5 Falcons

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## Trailer23

For the F-16 fanboys...

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## TsAr

Hodor said:


> Blk 52 from #5 Falcons
> 
> View attachment 559452


any link to the pic available


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## Ahmet Pasha

We really need to come out of this Western carrot and stick addiction.

Need to make our own completely.
Like Turkey is trying.

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## Talon

TsAr said:


> any link to the pic available


I took it from a closed Facebook group.Search for Plane Spotters Pakistan Forum.

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## Trailer23

Ahmet Pasha said:


> We really need to come out of this Western carrot and stick addiction.
> 
> Need to make our own completely.
> Like Turkey is trying.


Turkey's economy has recently taken a hit, otherwise they were booming for years. Were/still are part of NATO.

We have corrupt Politicians, India, Afghanistan, Poverty, Water issues, Power issues, lousy economy, no funds...and the list goes on.

Yeah, it is an addiction - because its proven itself for 4 decades. And trust me, it'll be decades before we are able to produce one by ourselves without the assistance for another party.

Reality is tough to accept. Reality is...: that we're a Developing Nation - which is just a nice term for a 3rd World Nation.

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## Trailer23




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## Ahmet Pasha

Same







Trailer23 said:


>

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## Talon

Bholari

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## mshan44



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## Trailer23

Hodor said:


> Bholari
> 
> View attachment 561083


No f'ing way...!!!

When did the PAF take the service of such talented photographers?

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## Avicenna

Trailer23 said:


> No f'ing way...!!!
> 
> When did the PAF take the service of such talented photographers?



Gorgeous photo.


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## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> No f'ing way...!!!
> 
> When did the PAF take the service of such talented photographers?


His name is Syed Zohaib and he provides his services for free to the air force.You can find him on Facebook as "syed Zohaib zaidi photography"

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## Windjammer

A close look at the Gadgets on a PAF F 16 Fighting Falcon (ADF) from No.19 Squadron 'Sherdils'.

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## khanasifm

Let’s see if paf will follow USA in extending f-16 from 8k to 12k hours life adf will be the first one

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## Trailer23

Hodor said:


> His name is Syed Zohaib and he provides his services for free to the air force.You can find him on Facebook as "syed Zohaib zaidi photography"


Yeah, I've seen his work - but this picture is a Perfect *10*.

We need to employee the services of someone like this:

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## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> Yeah, I've seen his work - but this picture is a Perfect *10*.
> 
> We need to employee the services of someone like this:


Many air forces have their official photographers but PAF doesnt.In the past Air Cdr Hamid Faraz was doing this job and took very amazing photos but he's retired now, let's see who takes his place,maybe S U Khan..he was responsible for aerial shots of MBS escort when he came to Pakistan.
The Blk 52 photo I posted on previous page was also taken by him.

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## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


> A close look at the Gadgets on a PAF F 16 Fighting Falcon (ADF) from No.19 Squadron 'Sherdils'.
> 
> View attachment 561235


And if you zoom out, you get this pic...

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## mingle

Trailer23 said:


> Yeah, I've seen his work - but this picture is a Perfect *10*.
> 
> We need to employee the services of someone like this:


We shouldn hire her for a photo shoot


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## loanranger

mingle said:


> We shouldn hire her for a photo shoot


The planes might not get all the attention then......So no !

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## loanranger

Trailer23 said:


> And if you zoom out, you get this pic...
> 
> View attachment 561348


Thats one tall pilot. How tall is he 6-3'?


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## Trailer23

mingle said:


> We shouldn hire her for a photo shoot


I meant some like her. An individual who takes pictures for a profession & not passion.

The JF-17 could certainly use some quality pictures for promotional purpose during Air Shows.

You can see the lady from LM is actually coordinating with Pilots what they are supposed to do for the perfect angle.

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## ZedZeeshan

loanranger said:


> Thats one tall pilot. How tall is he 6-3'?


Pilot and 6 3.. girls can go crazy for him


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## Trailer23

ZedZeeshan said:


> Pilot and 6 3.. girls can go crazy for him


Don't know about that, but the kid can certainly be a Poster Boy for the Air Force if he stand 6'3" tall in an F-16.


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## Imran Khan

Trailer23 said:


> And if you zoom out, you get this pic...
> 
> View attachment 561348


dekh lo in seedhy saady nazer aany waly logoon ne india ki mother sister ker di 27 feb ko 



Trailer23 said:


> And if you zoom out, you get this pic...
> 
> View attachment 561348


dekh lo in seedhy saady nazer aany waly logoon ne india ki mother sister ker di 27 feb ko

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## Flight of falcon

Just joined this site. My first day here. I am shocked to see the level of maturity or should I say lack of maturity shown by some members. Indians are trolling and our members are busy discussing nonsense .

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## mingle

Flight of falcon said:


> Just joined this site. My first day here. I am shocked to see the level of maturity or should I say lack of maturity shown by some members. Indians are trolling and our members are busy discussing nonsense .


Where Indians trolling us?when u have nothing to do nonsense kicks in


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## Flight of falcon

mingle said:


> Where Indians trolling us?when u have nothing to do nonsense kicks in




I was going through old posts and noticed so much BS posts from Indians and lame responses from Pakistanis.... so much nonsense posts only some members write sensible stuff.

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## mingle

Flight of falcon said:


> I was going through old posts and noticed so much BS posts from Indians and lame responses from Pakistanis.... so much nonsense posts only some members write sensible stuff.


OK ur now here let's see how u respond


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## Cuirassier

Flight of falcon said:


> Just joined this site. My first day here. I am shocked to see the level of maturity or should I say lack of maturity shown by some members. Indians are trolling and our members are busy discussing nonsense .


You expect us to be smart?

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## Flight of falcon

mingle said:


> Pal I deleted that post but pal u need to grow up u attacked me personally. Who needs to grow up pal??? This also shows how professional ur rather pointing out start attacking personally. Grow up as mingle said to U.




Not sure what you are talking about. What the heck does this even mean ? I am not trying to insult anyone let alone picking on you. I have no idea who you are and what you are talking about. Stop wasting my time and make some informative post .

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## Keysersoze

Flight of falcon said:


> I was going through old posts and noticed so much BS posts from Indians and lame responses from Pakistanis.... so much nonsense posts only some members write sensible stuff.


There is always going to be those kind of posters. You need to filter the idiots (There are quite a few on all sides).


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## Trailer23

...and coming back to reality.

So its public knowledge that the US stated that (if) India were to pick the F-21 - it would exclusively be sold only to them.

And now that _Modi_ has officially come (back) in power, its safe to say that the _Rafales_ are going to be picked - Contest or No Contest.

*So, is the F-21 now fair game if the PAF were interested? And if so, what does the F-21 offer that the Block-72 doesn't in terms of Specifications & Performance?*

Last I checked, there is only a comparison between the Rafale & the F-16 Block 60/62. Need more info on:
- Rafale vs. F-16 Block 70/72
- Rafale vs F-21

Look, a _Trump/Khan_ meeting is bound to happen (sooner or later) with the _Afghanistan Peace Process_. How long does _Trump_ intend on playing down _IK_ is anyone's guess. But for something of this magnitude should be in the not-so-distant future.

Now i'm not saying that _F-16/F-21_ are a priority of _IK_ - but all those meeting with ACM must've brought up the topic of what Options are & aren't available in the next 3-4 Years.

Remember that even Capital Hill want their Solders back & _Indian_ lobbying can do only so much.

Note: And please guys, stick to the Topic about the F-16 & not shower with the:
- End the Romance of American Equipment
- We need to focus on JFT Block III & Project AZM.


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## Silicon0000

Trailer23 said:


> ...and coming back to reality.
> 
> So its public knowledge that the US stated that (if) India were to pick the F-21 - it would exclusively be sold only to them.
> 
> And now that _Modi_ has officially come (back) in power, its safe to say that the _Rafales_ are going to be picked - Contest or No Contest.
> 
> *So, is the F-21 now fair game if the PAF were interested? And if so, what does the F-21 offer that the Block-72 doesn't in terms of Specifications & Performance?*
> 
> Last I checked, there is only a comparison between the Rafale & the F-16 Block 60/62. Need more info on:
> - Rafale vs. F-16 Block 70/72
> - Rafale vs F-21
> 
> Look, a _Trump/Khan_ meeting is bound to happen (sooner or later) with the _Afghanistan Peace Process_. How long does _Trump_ intend on playing down _IK_ is anyone's guess. But for something of this magnitude should be in the not-so-distant future.
> 
> Now i'm not saying that _F-16/F-21_ are a priority of _IK_ - but all those meeting with ACM must've brought up the topic of what Options are & aren't available in the next 3-4 Years.
> 
> Remember that even Capital Hill want their Solders back & _Indian_ lobbying can do only so much.
> 
> Note: And please guys, stick to the Topic about the F-16 & not shower with the:
> - End the Romance of American Equipment
> - We need to focus on JFT Block III & Project AZM.



Wishes wishes and lots of wishes.............. Only Going to be full filled with the money of oil discovered in Kekra

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## Arsalan

@mingle no one attacked your personal life. I have reviewed all the posts and taken action where necessary. This was all a point less troll war, adding nothing of value and based on no point at all. Must avoid such things in future please. 

No warnings issued.

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## Trailer23

Silicon0000 said:


> Wishes wishes and lots of wishes.............. Only Going to be full filled with the money of oil discovered in Kekra


Yes, KEKRA-I was a bust. We are all aware and upset about it. But that ship has sailed & we outta move on (as a Nation), unless people wanna declare us a Fail State altogether.

As for my earlier post, the Question was about the F-21 being fair game (IF) the PAF were interested & the differences...

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## Silicon0000

Trailer23 said:


> Yes, KEKRA-I was a bust. We are all aware and upset about it. But that ship has sailed & we outta move on (as a Nation), unless people wanna declare us a Fail State altogether.
> 
> As for my earlier post, the Question was about the F-21 being fair game (IF) the PAF were interested & the differences...


We don't have money for F21 or this new F-16 block xyz.


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## Trailer23

Silicon0000 said:


> We don't have money for F21 or this new F-16 block xyz.


You know what..., pigeons learn faster than you.


Trailer23 said:


> Note: And please guys, stick to the Topic about the F-16 & not shower with the:
> - End the Romance of American Equipment
> - We need to focus on JFT Block III & Project AZM.


I believe point #1 was meant for individuals like yourself. If you're NOT interested in a discussion, kindly visit the JF-17 sub-forum. Its full of Topics where your insight will be of great use.


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## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> I meant some like her. An individual who takes pictures for a profession & not passion.
> 
> The JF-17 could certainly use some quality pictures for promotional purpose during Air Shows.
> 
> You can see the lady from LM is actually coordinating with Pilots what they are supposed to do for the perfect angle.


Paf occasionally hires services of professional photographers as well.Cant post full picture but check the gear.







P.S I myself have done photography for the airforce (as a visitor) and one of my photos is painted on flight line of a certain squadron.

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## Trailer23

Hodor said:


> Paf occasionally hires services of professional photographers as well.Cant post full picture but check the gear.
> 
> View attachment 561941
> 
> 
> P.S I myself have done photography for the airforce (as a visitor) and one of my photos is painted on flight line of a certain squadron.


...and i'll be covering the DxB Airshow later this Year - all 5 Days - Annual Leave APPROVED.

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## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> ...and i'll be covering the DxB Airshow later this Year - all 5 Days - Annual Leave APPROVED.


Dxb is in my wishlist but I prefer spotting normal ops over airshows or aerobatics.


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## Silicon0000

Trailer23 said:


> You know what..., pigeons learn faster than you.
> 
> I believe point #1 was meant for individuals like yourself. If you're NOT interested in a discussion, kindly visit the JF-17 sub-forum. Its full of Topics where your insight will be of great use.


Hahaha


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## Raider 21

Falcon Talon III

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## batmannow

F16 strike egal xl

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## Armchair

batmannow said:


> F16 strike egal xl



Ah, beautiful. If only the JFT came in XL format.


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## Bratva

An eight year old story relevant to what's happening around to us now a days


*Suspicious of stolen technology, U.S. suspends weapon exports to S.Korea*
Posted on : Nov.21,2011 12:50 KST Modified on : Nov.21,2011 12:50 KST

print 프린트
Larger font size 글씨크기 크게
Smaller font size 글씨크기 작게
Analysts say the suspicions follow other claims of stolen technology








The “Tiger Eyes” sensor suite installed on the F-15K No. 3, is highlighted by the red circle, and visible in an airport hanger in Seoul. (Photo by Lee Jung-a)
By Lee Soon-hyuk　



Following the war of nerves between South Korea and the United States over the unauthorized dismantling of “Tiger Eyes,” a sensor suite installed on the F-15K, in August and September, the controversy over stealing defense industry technology has recently been spreading to other weapons. The Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) and others are officially playing down the importance of the issue, but there are signs the fallout may grow, with the United States suspending the export of strategic weaponry to South Korea.

Controversy over technology theft

*U.S. suspicions that South Korea was stealing defense technology began with an incident involving the breaking of seals around the F-15K’s “Tiger Eyes” sensor suite. Installed under the fuselage of the F-15K, these sensors help to accurately bomb targets even at night and in poor weather.*

*In August, the United States sent an investigation team led by a deputy undersecretary of state to South Korea, where they pressed Air Force officials - then in the middle of the Ulchi Freedom Guardian exercise - about whether they had taken apart the Tiger Eyes without authorization. The Air Force responded that the seals on the Tiger Eyes had been damaged when they were installed on the aircraft. In September, a joint South Korea-U.S. investigation team was formed, but DAPA recently explained that the team’s investigation was unable to find signs that the part had been disassembled. According to a source, however, South Korea demanded the United States produce evidence that they had illicitly examined the device, but the U.S. did not, saying that to do so could reveal an informant.* The source said that the United States was not convinced by South Korea’s explanation, and that both governments appear to have reached different conclusions.

*Some analysts also claim that this is about more than just the Tiger Eyes, and that complaints from the U.S. government had been accumulating. A typical example is the ALQ-200, an external radar jammer manufactured by LIG Nex1. The Agency for Defense Development (ADD) has promoted the ALQ-200, which, when attached to the underside of an aircraft, detects radar waves coming from enemy missiles and scrambles them, as its own technology, but the United States suspects the technology was pirated. In particular, the U.S. was reportedly shocked when South Korea pushed to export the technology to Pakistan, where it might be installed on Chinese-made fighters, and plans to export the jammer were canceled.*


Stopping strategic weapons exports to South Korea

After returning to the United States, the investigation team that had looked into the Tiger Eyes suspicions reported to the White House and Congress, resulting in the suspension of export of strategic weapons to South Korea. A typical example was Congress’s application of the brakes to the export of the Global Hawk unmanned aerial vehicle, which South Korea has been discussing adopting since the Roh Moo-hyun administration.

Local defense industries, for whom weapons development itself becomes difficult if key parts cannot be imported from the United States, also went into a state of emergency. Talk has spread within and outside of the military of one firm that sent high-ranking executives to the United States to beg in vain for the United States to allow it to export one of its products with U.S. technology.

In addition, the U.S. State Department’s Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC) has reportedly decided recently to investigate suspicions of technology piracy in major weapon systems South Korea that has been promoting as developed using indigenous technology. Accordingly, the U.S. Embassy is currently investigating. The fire controls of the K1A1 tank, which, along with the ALQ-200, had previously been a matter of controversy, the MLRS system and the Cheong Sangeo and Hong Sangeo torpedoes are said to be major targets of the investigation.

D&D Focus Editor in Chief Kim Jong-dae, who first reported on the Tiger Eyes controversy in Defense 21, an online webzine on military matters run by the Hankyoreh, said the situation was brought on by a combination of the U.S. keynote of selling weapons to Korea but not transferring technology, and the DAPA’s and ADD’s lax and easy-going attitudes. He expressed concern about the after-effects, such as South Korea’s bargaining power dropping greatly during next year’s “F-X” project to adopt a next-generation fighter.

Meanwhile, regarding the U.S. government’s accurate grasp of the breaking of the Tiger Eyes seals, the existence of a U.S. informant has also become a matter of controversy. The Defense Security Command and NIS have reportedly begun trying to uncover the informant.

http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_national/506385.html

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## mshan44



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## ghazi52

This F-16 was Built in 1982 and delivered to Pakistan in 1983 .Serial number 82702 is still operational after 36 years of use.

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## Windjammer



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## nomi007

will usa allow us to integrate turkish aesa radar & missiles on our f-16s
in near future


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## mingle

nomi007 said:


> will usa allow us to integrate turkish aesa radar & missiles on our f-16s
> in near future


According to our turkish friend @cabatli_53 pak does not need US permission for turkish upgrade for older blks they already passed contract restrictions age I think 35yrs if that is correct then look for aselsan AESA for our MLUs and new blk 52s probably Raytheon SABR AESA.

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## Falcon26

mingle said:


> According to our turkish friend @cabatli_53 pak does not need US permission for turkish upgrade for older blks they already passed contract restrictions age I think 35yrs if that is correct then look for aselsan AESA for our MLUs and new blk 52s probably Raytheon SABR AESA.



@Bilal Khan (Quwa) is this true?

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## Nasr

Falcon26 said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) is this true?



SABR AESA is still manufactured by USA, so it doesn't make a squat diddly difference whether Turkey can upgrade F-16s of other countries without having to seek USA's permission. Pakistan would still have to buy the radars from USA in the first place. Besides that point, do you see Turkey upgrading any of the F-16s with AESAs?

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## mingle

Falcon26 said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) is this true?


Check post of @cabatli_53 at same thread here I read it.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) is this true?


I don't know. The real variable is whether the US will actually care enough to stop it. If not, then it's all-green; if so, then no amount of contractual rights is going to save Pakistan IMHO.

If anything, I'd look at the Turkish AESA radar as an option for the JF-17 or Project Azm.

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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16A-ADF-Fighting-Falcon/1862

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## Windjammer



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## MastanKhan

Falcon26 said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) is this true?


 
Hi,

It is simply no the US---just as Pres Duterte mentioned---any congressman can get up and place sanctions on a contract / deal at any stage of the project---.

For that reason---the US cannot be trusted---.

With pakistan---what the US congress and senate is doing is hurting it bad---the will sign the deal---then they put sanctions just before the product is ready to be delivered---.

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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16AM-Fighting-Falcon/1892





11111

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't know. The real variable is whether the US will actually care enough to stop it. If not, then it's all-green; if so, then no amount of contractual rights is going to save Pakistan IMHO.
> 
> If anything, I'd look at the Turkish AESA radar as an option for the JF-17 or Project Azm.


In my humble opinion the US would want its own pound of flesh if we wanted to upgrade the 16s which would include, getting us to buy more newer16s as well as upgrade kits. Due t oIAF not having an AAESA Radar so far they would use it as an excuse to not introduce newer hardware int othe region. So all in all it looks very unlikely unless the US gets entangled in Afghanistan.
A


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## Armchair

How about use the competitive element here?

Send IK to deal directly with Trump, tell him that we have an offer of EF from Italy and the Chinese are offering J-10s, but if the deal is right, and the guarantee is solid, we would rather get F-16s, for old times sake. But if not, its not a big deal. It would bring $3 billions to the US. What say you chump?

18 Block 62s
36 EDA
Assorted spare parts to last PAF 10 years
Munitions
EW kit

All payable _on delivery_.

_meanwhile, stop the supply line_



batmannow said:


> F16 strike egal xl



If only there was a JFT XL


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## TsAr

Armchair said:


> How about use the competitive element here?
> 
> Send IK to deal directly with Trump, tell him that we have an offer of EF from Italy and the Chinese are offering J-10s, but if the deal is right, and the guarantee is solid, we would rather get F-16s, for old times sake. But if not, its not a big deal. It would bring $3 billions to the US. What say you chump?
> 
> 18 Block 62s
> 36 EDA
> Assorted spare parts to last PAF 10 years
> Munitions
> EW kit
> 
> All payable _on delivery_.
> 
> _meanwhile, stop the supply line_
> 
> 
> 
> If only there was a JFT XL


He says ok but cash only, so from where would we get $3 billion in these crunch financial times.

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## CHI RULES

Armchair said:


> How about use the competitive element here?
> 
> Send IK to deal directly with Trump, tell him that we have an offer of EF from Italy and the Chinese are offering J-10s, but if the deal is right, and the guarantee is solid, we would rather get F-16s, for old times sake. But if not, its not a big deal. It would bring $3 billions to the US. What say you chump?
> 
> 18 Block 62s
> 36 EDA
> Assorted spare parts to last PAF 10 years
> Munitions
> EW kit
> 
> All payable _on delivery_.
> 
> _meanwhile, stop the supply line_
> 
> 
> 
> If only there was a JFT XL



Sir perhaps you are unaware that NATO/Allied forces in Afghanistan are functioning under UN mandate so if Pakistan stops supply line shall face harsh sanctions by UN


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## Armchair

CHI RULES said:


> Sir perhaps you are unaware that NATO/Allied forces in Afghanistan are functioning under UN mandate so if Pakistan stops supply line shall face harsh sanctions by UN



Hi -
Actually, UN has no authority to force a country to cede supply lines. This is a fantasy. They can take other routes if they so wish. These false narratives are planted by a certain interest group that tries to undermine Pak's national interest. Just like the fake Musharaf era "they will bomb us to the stone age" while fully cooperating with the enemy from day zero.



TsAr said:


> He says ok but cash only, so from where would we get $3 billion in these crunch financial times.



True, I don't have an answer for that.


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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16AM-Fighting-Falcon/1919

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16AM-Fighting-Falcon/1926

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> Hi -
> Actually, UN has no authority to force a country to cede supply lines. This is a fantasy. They can take other routes if they so wish. These false narratives are planted by a certain interest group that tries to undermine Pak's national interest. Just like the fake Musharaf era "they will bomb us to the stone age" while fully cooperating with the enemy from day zero.
> True, I don't have an answer for that.



Hi,

Really---did you need to write that comment---.

Saddam never believed that the US would attack before the 1st gulf war---.






Mullah Omar kept mixing up the word " Terrorist with Tourist---"---. Mullah Omar thought that the americans were calling OBL a "tourist" and asking him to kick out the tourist---. And then someone explained it to him what the real word was---by then it was too late---.

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## Path-Finder

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Really---did you need to write that comment---.
> 
> Saddam never believed that the US would attack before the 1st gulf war---.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mullah Omar kept mixing up the word " Terrorist with Tourist---"---. Mullah Omar thought that the americans were calling OBL a "tourist" and asking him to kick out the tourist---. And then someone explained it to him what the real word was---by then it was too late---.



How would you factor Vietnam into this?


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## MastanKhan

Path-Finder said:


> How would you factor Vietnam into this?



Hi,

In relation to what---?


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## Path-Finder

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In relation to what---?


to your post!


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## MastanKhan

Path-Finder said:


> to your post!




Hi,

My post had no relation to vietnam---.

It was about a modern war---modern weapons---a totally changed war and a totally different game plan---a war against a muslim nation---by christian fundamentalists and christian Jihadis---.

I was trying to be polite---okay---.

Every clueless person brings in vietnam---having no idea about that war---.

So---what context did you bring in vietnam---.


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## Path-Finder

MastanKhan said:


> So---what context did you bring in vietnam---.


I wanted your views vis a vis Vietnam.


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## MastanKhan

Path-Finder said:


> I wanted your views vis a vis Vietnam.



Hi,

Vietnam was an old war---fought in a different time and under a different sets of rules of engagement imposed by the US congress on the US military---.

The US congress does not have those powers any more in how to dictate the US military to fight a war---& the US military would not accept those conditions or orders until and unless the field commander does not have the power to fight the war as he sees it fit to---.

Does that answer the question---.

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Really---did you need to write that comment---.
> 
> Saddam never believed that the US would attack before the 1st gulf war---.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mullah Omar kept mixing up the word " Terrorist with Tourist---"---. Mullah Omar thought that the americans were calling OBL a "tourist" and asking him to kick out the tourist---. And then someone explained it to him what the real word was---by then it was too late---.



MK it has been proved by hard documentation that Musharraf was discussing putting up this fear story, as a ploy. He had long sold out his nation and was pretending, in confidence with the "enemy" he was showed to be protecting Pakistan from. 

I was there when they sold out Pakistanis, including elective representatives of local governments, without proof, without a court of law, they vanished. I remember it like yesterday. I will never forget and never forgive. They were sold to the Americans for between 5000 USD to 50000 USD. One of them was among the most impressive people I had ever met in my life, a Kashmiri who had nothing to do with the fight in Afghanistan, an elected member of the local government in Azad Kashmir. If he was an insurgent of any type, he was probably fighting Indians. 

I have never met a man like him in all my travels all over the world. And that sellout government sold men like him to the US for a couple of thousand dollars. Imagine that. 

And no, they could not send a nuclear power to the stone age. Pak was never Iraq. Never. A single thermonuclear warhead can put an entire US fleet out of commission. It was never a US option to take on Pakistan full on. Neither would China have allowed it. This was all a story. A story that was first discussed and planned with the US government and later put into execution as a way to pacify the Pak public.

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16AM-Fighting-Falcon/1931









https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16AM-Fighting-Falcon/1930

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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16BM-Fighting-Falcon/1935

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## FuturePAF

If the Khan-Trump meeting goes well, Do you think the PAF will try to acquire the F-16 Block 70? Another 18+18 option type of deal. It may also open up the US to allow the PAF to purchase more Used F-16s from other operators, as well as allow the PAF to upgrade the entire fleet to Block 70 standard and extend the air frames life to 12,000 hours. This would cover the high end comprehensively for the PAF until Project AZM is ready in 10-15 years.

This maybe the opportunity PAF was waiting for, considering Trump may want to get Billions of Dollars for US companies, so that he can say he is securing the thousands of jobs in key states.

If PAF could secure 36 New builts ($150 million per plane based on other nations sales) and 24 Used birds, and upgrades the entire Fleet to Block 70 Standard (upgrades looks to cost $40-50 million per plane), it would be enough for 8 full strength squadrons of the Latest 4th Generation Fighter in the World; 136 F-16s. More Aim-120C5 or C7 and the Aim-9X-II, along with more PGMS and more Sniper Targeting pods should earn the US at least a Billion more. A sale of equipment to set up a F-16 overhaul facility at Kamra would also earn more for Lockheed, and it would pay off for the PAF as it could do a MLU in Pakistan. 

*Some deal could be tied to increased Pakistani Exports to the US balanced with Pakistani Arms deals. Should the US deal not go through, The US will just have a larger trade imbalance with Pakistan, so it would be in the US interest to have the deal go through. The Indians don't look to be seriously considering the F-16, so the US should consider sales to Pakistan before Pakistan commits and spends its money on Chinese Fighters like the J-10CE. *

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## GriffinsRule

FuturePAF said:


> If the Khan-Trump meeting goes well, Do you think the PAF will try to acquire the F-16 Block 70? Another 18+18 option type of deal. It may also open up the US to allow the PAF to purchase more Used F-16s from other operators, as well as allow the PAF to upgrade the entire fleet to Block 70 standard and extend the air frames life to 12,000 hours. This would cover the high end comprehensively for the PAF until Project AZM is ready in 10-15 years.
> 
> This maybe the opportunity PAF was waiting for, considering Trump may want to get Billions of Dollars for US companies, so that he can say he is securing the thousands of jobs in key states.
> 
> If PAF could secure 36 New builts and 24 Used birds, and upgrades the entire Fleet to Block 70 Standard, it would be enough for 8 full strength squadrons of the Latest 4th Generation Fighter in the World; 136 F-16s.
> 
> Some deal could be tied to increased Pakistani Exports to the US balanced with Pakistani Arms deals.



Upgrading the Block 70 is too expensive as it currently stands. Just look at the values of the deals that have been announced already. Also, given that we only recently upgraded the Block 15s through the MLU and our Block 52s are not quite that old, its unlikely we will see them upgraded again anytime soon (might not even upgrade the block 15s, aside from incremental software updates, beyond the current level as they are already 30+ years old).
Another factor is giving Pakistan access to US AESA radars when Indians dont have the Rafale fielded yet in numbers (given their geopolitical tilt) they want to keep India stronger than Pakistan when it comes to cutting edge weapons.

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## FuturePAF

GriffinsRule said:


> Upgrading the Block 70 is too expensive as it currently stands. Just look at the values of the deals that have been announced already. Also, given that we only recently upgraded the Block 15s through the MLU and our Block 52s are not quite that old, its unlikely we will see them upgraded again anytime soon (might not even upgrade the block 15s, aside from incremental software updates, beyond the current level as they are already 30+ years old).
> Another factor is giving Pakistan access to US AESA radars when Indians dont have the Rafale fielded yet in numbers (given their geopolitical tilt) they want to keep India stronger than Pakistan when it comes to cutting edge weapons.



You have to remember, Trump would also like to get some deals signed. The Indians are getting 36 Rafales starting this year, so 18 PAF F-16 Block 70s won't change the balance of power, but keep it balanced, and may even incentivize the Indians to buy the Super Hornet. The Indians don't seem to be committing to any US products for their major Air force Fighter or Strike platform tenders. Therefore the US shoudl look at who is willing to buy their products.

18 Block 70s and just the SABR radars and associated avionics upgrades would be enough to give the PAF modern capabilities to match IAF acquisitions for the foreseeable future. 18 Block 70, permission to buy 42 Late model low-flight hour F-16s from other operators, and the aforementioned upgrades, along with Aim-120c7 and Aim-9X-II would be enough for the PAF. Then we would have 8 full f-16 Squadrons. Price tag would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $6-9 Billion. A steady increase in trade could cover some of this acquisition, and it is a large enough deal that it may incentivize the Trump and the US to go through with it, especially if it gets Pakistan to buy American and not Chinese.


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## Yasser76

FuturePAF said:


> You have to remember, Trump would also like to get some deals signed. The Indians are getting 36 Rafales starting this year, so 18 PAF F-16 Block 70s won't change the balance of power, but keep it balanced, and may even incentivize the Indians to buy the Super Hornet. The Indians don't seem to be committing to any US products for their major Air force Fighter or Strike platform tenders. Therefore the US shoudl look at who is willing to buy their products.
> 
> 18 Block 70s and just the SABR radars and associated avionics upgrades would be enough to give the PAF modern capabilities to match IAF acquisitions for the foreseeable future. 18 Block 70, permission to buy 42 Late model low-flight hour F-16s from other operators, and the aforementioned upgrades, along with Aim-120c7 and Aim-9X-II would be enough for the PAF. Then we would have 8 full f-16 Squadrons. Price tag would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $6-9 Billion. A steady increase in trade could cover some of this acquisition, and it is a large enough deal that it may incentivize the Trump and the US to go through with it, especially if it gets Pakistan to buy American and not Chinese.



Yeah, gonna be difficult to buy off Trump. Even if we spend billions he will be happy and newsworthy but F-16 production line moved to South Carolina, it is heavily Republican and always has been, so no real concessions here.


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## araz

FuturePAF said:


> You have to remember, Trump would also like to get some deals signed. The Indians are getting 36 Rafales starting this year, so 18 PAF F-16 Block 70s won't change the balance of power, but keep it balanced, and may even incentivize the Indians to buy the Super Hornet. The Indians don't seem to be committing to any US products for their major Air force Fighter or Strike platform tenders. Therefore the US shoudl look at who is willing to buy their products.
> 
> 18 Block 70s and just the SABR radars and associated avionics upgrades would be enough to give the PAF modern capabilities to match IAF acquisitions for the foreseeable future. 18 Block 70, permission to buy 42 Late model low-flight hour F-16s from other operators, and the aforementioned upgrades, along with Aim-120c7 and Aim-9X-II would be enough for the PAF. Then we would have 8 full f-16 Squadrons. Price tag would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $6-9 Billion. A steady increase in trade could cover some of this acquisition, and it is a large enough deal that it may incentivize the Trump and the US to go through with it, especially if it gets Pakistan to buy American and not Chinese.


The US is now becoming too unreliable and the constant shifts and turns of its polity are a cause for concern. We dont want to put all our eggs in one basket only to find at the crunch time they are all blocked and prevented from use. We do have products which are in the ballpark with their sophistication so we now have choice as against the 80s and 2000s when we had very little or no choice. So the crunch question is do we really want to put our head in the noose again or do we bite the bullet and go for a newer platform? I think for capacity build up we can try and get some older platforms for MLU and run them giving us 2-3 squadrons but will the US allow us to do that is another question. For what it is worth I dont think we will ask for or will be granted Bl.70s or the US AESA radars.
A

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## MIRauf

If US is willing, PAF should go for 36 odd F-15X instead. I know that infrastructure is not there, but set it up as a new platform type, its a beast of of platform and except for F-22 and or perhaps F-35 nothing outclasses or matches it.

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## Nasr

FuturePAF said:


> You have to remember, Trump would also like to get some deals signed. The Indians are getting 36 Rafales starting this year, so 18 PAF F-16 Block 70s won't change the balance of power, but keep it balanced, and may even incentivize the Indians to buy the Super Hornet. The Indians don't seem to be committing to any US products for their major Air force Fighter or Strike platform tenders. Therefore the US shoudl look at who is willing to buy their products.
> 
> 18 Block 70s and just the SABR radars and associated avionics upgrades would be enough to give the PAF modern capabilities to match IAF acquisitions for the foreseeable future. 18 Block 70, permission to buy 42 Late model low-flight hour F-16s from other operators, and the aforementioned upgrades, along with Aim-120c7 and Aim-9X-II would be enough for the PAF. Then we would have 8 full f-16 Squadrons. Price tag would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $6-9 Billion. A steady increase in trade could cover some of this acquisition, and it is a large enough deal that it may incentivize the Trump and the US to go through with it, especially if it gets Pakistan to buy American and not Chinese.



All that ... and one bill passed through US Congress, the house of cards come crashing down. Just look at Turkey frantically buying up spares to increase their stockpile. Zionist-America has Turkey by the balls. Turkey's entire Air Force is all American fighters, it couldn't withstand U.S embargo on spare parts even if it tried it's hardest! The biggest advantage Pakistan has over America is it's drastically reducing dependency on American military hardware. In particular, it's Air Force. What Pakistan needs to do (and is now doing) is to build a pool of experts (Pakistanis) which would allow Pakistan to "_truly absorb_" technology transfers. As it's nucleus of experts increase, so would the industry and relative R&D would expand. Presently Pakistan lacks in knowledge base, hence has little no capacity to establish and expand industry, in particular, the military aviation. Why this is critical? Well just look at the hapless state of india, which supposedly has the knowledge base, the industry base and the money. Yet it has consistently and miserably failed to make any advances by itself. 

Pakistan must build it's economy, must cultivate a harmonious education system and start churning out graduates who have the knowledge base to build it's industries, RESPONSIBLY!!! When Pakistan does do this, it will have the necessary resources, the critical industry technology and formidable allies to propel it to the level of South Korea or Japan. We just need to believe in our ability to do so. And if we keep sticking to the mentality of getting this many F-16s or that Block of Vipers or some AH-1 Zulus. Then I'm afraid that we would end up with the same shit that India finds itself in today.

Pakistan Air Force has cautiously and carefully mitigated it's modernization progress. Knowing fully well, that without the knowledge base, it cannot possibly rid itself of dependency on Western technology.

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## TsAr

I highly doubt that F-16 would even be discussed. Only thing we can hope for is to get are Cobras's......

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## denel

TsAr said:


> I highly doubt that F-16 would even be discussed. Only thing we can hope for is to get are Cobras's......


all depends; IK is a strong personality which TIT's weakness. Lets see. I do suspect there will be a quid pro quo

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## TheTallGuy

where is this 18 x Block 72 figure came? I thought it was 36 x F-16C/D Block 72 (24 x C and 12 x D) and upgrade of 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ to Viper Configuration. plus possible but very much needed 13 x MLU upgrades of Ex-RJAF F-16s we have.

Importantly PAF would want AIM-120D...this will fit like a glove with ERIEYE ER

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## Army research

TheTallGuy said:


> where is this 18 x Block 72 figure came? I thought it was 36 x F-16C/D Block 72 (24 x C and 12 x D) and upgrade of 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ to Viper Configuration. plus possible but very much needed 13 x MLU upgrades of Ex-RJAF F-16s we have.
> 
> Importantly PAF would want AIM-120D...this will fit like a glove with ERIEYE ER


AIM120D and 9X or nothing should be the deal , the link 16 120D with those flying Swedish sorcerers will be a force to reckon

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## Trailer23

TheTallGuy said:


> I thought it was 36 x F-16C/D Block 72 (24 x C and 12 x D) and upgrade of 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ to Viper Configuration.


@TheTallGuy - you have become somewhat of a nuisance (compliment), as whatever you post seems like you know more than you show.

Its almost as if you're masquerading as a Car Dealer...

In all honesty, I hope your above post turns out to be accurate.

On another note, a number of Nations (Bahrain/Morocco/Bulgaria) have placed an order for the F-16 Block 70/72.

How long before the US offers this...F-21 to other nations, if India doesn't bite on their offer?

And does anyone know the difference in price tag between the new F-16 & F-21...?

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## mingle

TheTallGuy said:


> where is this 18 x Block 72 figure came? I thought it was 36 x F-16C/D Block 72 (24 x C and 12 x D) and upgrade of 18 x F-16C/D Block 52+ to Viper Configuration. plus possible but very much needed 13 x MLU upgrades of Ex-RJAF F-16s we have.
> 
> Importantly PAF would want AIM-120D...this will fit like a glove with ERIEYE ER


Blk 52 requirements during Mush Era was 54 to 72 I think if there is chance PAF will go another 36 blk 72 along 18 52s to 72 standards I agree with U don't forget used F16s from Belgium and Jordan that would be Fun. Totally agree with U


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## monitor

GriffinsRule said:


> Upgrading the Block 70 is too expensive as it currently stands. Just look at the values of the deals that have been announced already. Also, given that we only recently upgraded the Block 15s through the MLU and our Block 52s are not quite that old, its unlikely we will see them upgraded again anytime soon (might not even upgrade the block 15s, aside from incremental software updates, beyond the current level as they are already 30+ years old).
> Another factor is giving Pakistan access to US AESA radars when Indians dont have the Rafale fielded yet in numbers (given their geopolitical tilt) they want to keep India stronger than Pakistan when it comes to cutting edge weapons.



Upgrading is not too expensive it's coming within the range between 35-40 million dollar per aircraft if we consider recent contract of upgrading. But newly build block 70 is too expensive 100+ million dollar.

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## mingle

monitor said:


> Upgrading is not too expensive it's coming within the range between 35-40 million dollar per aircraft if we consider recent contract of upgrading. But newly build block 70 is too expensive 100+ million dollar.


Seeing Trump administration attitude they will force Pak buy new jetts if Pak wants used one and upgrade beacuse LM had more profit in new planes economics


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## GriffinsRule

People here should remember the saying in Urdu, khiyal-e-Palao maat pakao.
Given the AIM-120D has only been exported to a handful of countries (UK and Australia) and not even to the countries that are buying new or upgrading F-16s to Block 70. At best, and that is already a stretch, we might get the updates to go from C5 to C7 version of the AMRAAM. 
Besides, Pakistan does not have the ancillary assets or platforms to truly take advantage of all AIM-120D capabilities, such as satellite assisted navigation, two-way datalink or other networked targeting capabilities.

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## Army research

GriffinsRule said:


> People here should remember the saying in Urdu, khiyal-e-Palao maat pakao.
> Given the AIM-120D has only been exported to a handful of countries (UK and Australia) and not even to the countries that are buying new or upgrading F-16s to Block 70. At best, and that is already a stretch, we might get the updates to go from C5 to C7 version of the AMRAAM.
> Besides, Pakistan does not have the ancillary assets or platforms to truly take advantage of all AIM-120D capabilities, such as satellite assisted navigation, two-way datalink or other networked targeting capabilities.


We have link 16 data link, baidu access , and networked eryeie


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## Flight of falcon

What more proof we need that there will be some serious discussions about changing strategic balance in the region. From the Whitehouse press release:

"President Trump and PM Imran will discuss a range of issues, including counterterrorism, defense, energy and trade, with the goal of creating the conditions for a peaceful South Asia and an enduring partnership between our two countries," the statement added.


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## Keysersoze

Flight of falcon said:


> What more proof we need that there will be some serious discussions about changing strategic balance in the region. From the Whitehouse press release:
> 
> "President Trump and PM Imran will discuss a range of issues, including counterterrorism, defense, energy and trade, with the goal of creating the conditions for a peaceful South Asia and an enduring partnership between our two countries," the statement added.


Trump is a complete narcissist. You need to kiss his arse to get anywhere. A more stable leader would need subtle political nuance. But kiss his arse. Tell him what he wants to hear ,like he is a great leader and you'll get what you want.

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## FuturePAF

Knuckles said:


> Utter stupidity



Actually it might work. Maybe calling up Ivana before the meeting and following up afterwards through the Trump Years may keep a valuable back channel open. If Trump knows IK is a lady's man, it may boost his image as a Man's man.

Back to the F-16s. Going for the *Aim-9X-II* and *Aim-120C7* along with a mix of new and used F-16s may allow Trump to show he's a deal maker, and for the west to show Pakistan is still keeping ties with the US. PAF needs to replace its fighter fleet, and buy *18 New F-16 Block 72* along with dozens of used F-16s will allow the PAF to gain a thin layer of the latest tech, along with an economical but modern fighter. A most overhaul can be done at a US facility to show money spent in the US, and even if half or even a third of the used F-16s get the AESA upgrade, decent use of tactics can be used to compensate, while saving money.

If we look at just the NATO nations with F-16s waiting for replacement by the F-35 we can see hundreds of F-16s potentially becoming available. If Pakistan is allowed to buy *60 flight worth used planes* and upgrade them to level of the current PAF A/B MLU planes, they would still be better then flying the Mirages. When US-Turkish relations heal, the PAF could then go for the Turkish AESA upgrade on these F-16s and maintain the strategic balance in South Asia. 

The alternative is telling the US we need to buy planes, you can sell them to us or we can buy them from somewhere else. either way we have our needs. We would like to buy from you, and put money where our mouth is in terms of the strategic alliance.

Btw; here are the numbers of those NATO F-16s that will soon be retiring IMHO (over the next 5-10 years)

30 Danish F-16 AM
60 Dutch F-16AM
46 Norwegian F-16A
43 Belgian F-16A
30 Portuguese F-16

*That's a total of 209 European F-16s along with the hundreds of USAF and US Air National Guard F-16s that may soon be replaced by the F-35.* *18 New F-16s and 60 used F-16s will allow the PAF to double the number of F-16 Squadrons to 9, and along with the 188 JF-17s making up 11 squadrons; create a robust 20 squadron fighter force; finally letting the PAF retire most of those Mirages and F-7PGs, potentially all by 2025. *

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## FuturePAF

Yasser76 said:


> Yeah, gonna be difficult to buy off Trump. Even if we spend billions he will be happy and newsworthy but F-16 production line moved to South Carolina, it is heavily Republican and always has been, so no real concessions here.



I already thought of that... Who's one of the Senators from South Carolina. None other than Lindsay Graham. He's the Chairman of the Senate subcommittee on State, Foreign Operations, and related Programs. He's on the Foreign Relations committee. He's on the Senate Defense subcommittee.

Remember he's the one that suggest IK and Trump meetup. He says they have similar personalities. He could win over other Republicans to see Pakistan as a much needed ally once again. This can be coupled with Imran khan's Human Capital development push, can help win over Socially Conscious Democrats, and the aggregate could be enough to allow Pakistan to get a Free trade agreement as well as the much needed Defense products at reasonable prices. 










And here is the realty, as Lindsay Graham sees it, in Afghanistan. *He may be key to convince Trump to release the Cobras for Pakistan and give Pakistan hundreds of MRAPs from the excess defense articles in Afghan during the draw down, which Pakistan will need to safely patrol the border areas.* He talks about the growing threat from Daesh, and knows Pakistan is a key nation to prevent them from regenerating again. A strong Pakistan with a healthy economy, that respects the interests of the major nations, should be seen as in the US national security interest. It will be similar to Jordan, a stable ally in a potentially dangerous neighborhood.

https://quwa.org/2017/02/19/pakistan-orders-40-maxxpro-mrap-vehicles-u-s/
https://www.dawn.com/news/1096837
https://www.dawn.com/news/1093755/us-military-may-hand-over-afghan-war-equipment-to-pakistan

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## Dubious

*Stick to the topic no need to show your auqaad by talking about women on a very unrelated thread!*


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## Trailer23

Lindsay Graham is one of those Republicans who seems to have a difficult time dealing with Trump.

Not sure how much of a role he'll have during IK's visit to the US.


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## TheTallGuy

GriffinsRule said:


> People here should remember the saying in Urdu, khiyal-e-Palao maat pakao.
> Given the AIM-120D has only been exported to a handful of countries (UK and Australia) and not even to the countries that are buying new or upgrading F-16s to Block 70. At best, and that is already a stretch, we might get the updates to go from C5 to C7 version of the AMRAAM.
> Besides, Pakistan does not have the ancillary assets or platforms to truly take advantage of all AIM-120D capabilities, such as satellite assisted navigation, two-way datalink or other networked targeting capabilities.



You have to note one important factor "Combat proven" there is a good chance that AIM-120D will get combat proven in hands of PAF then any other country and military hardware sells more once its combat proven.

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## GriffinsRule

TheTallGuy said:


> You have to note one important factor "Combat proven" there is a good chance that AIM-120D will get combat proven in hands of PAF then any other country and military hardware sells more once its combat proven.


Americans don't need Pakistan or anyone else for that matter, to prove their weapons in combat. They do it very well and quite often on their own.

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## monitor

mingle said:


> Seeing Trump administration attitude they will force Pak buy new jetts if Pak wants used one and upgrade beacuse LM had more profit in new planes economics



If they forced to buy few more new jet is not bad considering you opt for buying 36~ new jet but latter bought 18 so you can get another 18 brand new block 52+ and upgrade existing jet to block 70 standard . so future structure might be 76 upgraded block 70 and 18 block 52+ . in addition to this buying old jet from existing customer who are switching to F-35 is also possible if you can satisfy US .

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## mingle

monitor said:


> If they forced to buy few more new jet is not bad considering you opt for buying 36~ new jet but latter bought 18 so you can get another 18 brand new block 52+ and upgrade existing jet to block 70 standard . so future structure might be 76 upgraded block 70 and 18 block 52+ . in addition to this buying old jet from existing customer who are switching to F-35 is also possible if you can satisfy US .


Top military Brass also coming with IK let's hope for best.

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## air marshal

*A G G R E S S O R S *

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## Silicon0000

Happy Dreams Guys ...... But no new F-16 unless heavily subsidized by US.

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## Imran Khan

Silicon0000 said:


> Happy Dreams Guys ...... But no new F-16 unless heavily subsidized by US.


i think they should not take US weapons even for free .

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## Keysersoze

Imran Khan said:


> i think they should not take US weapons even for free .


Why not? I think the Pakistani military has done quite well with the F16. The fact that the Indian establishment were whining about the F16 speaks volumes. Also it is never good to put all you eggs in one basket.

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## FuturePAF

Trailer23 said:


> Lindsay Graham is one of those Republicans who seems to have a difficult time dealing with Trump.
> 
> Not sure how much of a role he'll have during IK's visit to the US.



Everyone has a difficult time dealing with Trump. Lindsay Graham speaks his mind, and to some extent Trump respects that. Respects gets your voice heard in the halls of power. In fact, Lindsay Graham was with Pence at the southern border today, which goes to show how close Lindsay Graham is with the top leadership. These are two senior republicans and part of the establishment. Trump needs them to reassure the donors for the 2020 election. Graham may not be there at the meeting, but as part of the establishment, their interests will have to be taken into consideration.

A Large Arms deal for South Carolina based F-16 Plant, The missiles are made in a plant in Tucson Arizona, and suppliers for all the various sub-systems are spread throughout the country. SLEP: service life extension program for the used F-16s would be done in Ogden Utah if I'm not mistaken. So there is a lot of work that can be spread among Republican States. These used birds are worth the money because according to the following article; service life can potentially be safely extended up to 15,000 hours.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...ife-but-will-have-to-compete-for-opportunity/

https://www.afmc.af.mil/News/Articl...-a-great-deal-for-department-of-defense-taxp/


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## Trailer23

Imran Khan said:


> i think they should not take US weapons even for free .


Lets make US an offer...

India lay lo - F-16 dai dou.

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## mingle

FuturePAF said:


> Everyone has a difficult time dealing with Trump. Lindsay Graham speaks his mind, and to some extent Trump respects that. Respects gets your voice heard in the halls of power. In fact, Lindsay Graham was with Pence at the southern border today, which goes to show how close Lindsay Graham is with the top leadership. These are two senior republicans and part of the establishment. Trump needs them to reassure the donors for the 2020 election. Graham may not be there at the meeting, but as part of the establishment, their interests will have to be taken into consideration.
> 
> A Large Arms deal for South Carolina based F-16 Plant, The missiles are made in a plant in Tucson Arizona, and suppliers for all the various sub-systems are spread throughout the country. SLEP: service life extension program for the used F-16s would be done in Ogden Utah if I'm not mistaken. So there is a lot of work that can be spread among Republican States. These used birds are worth the money because according to the following article; service life can potentially be safely extended up to 15,000 hours.
> 
> https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...ife-but-will-have-to-compete-for-opportunity/
> 
> https://www.afmc.af.mil/News/Articl...-a-great-deal-for-department-of-defense-taxp/


It's more bull than reality he is president and sherewed businessman not a university professor America is doing very good under his term Economically and he is also getting out from useless conflicts which draining US Tax payer Dollars and US lives simple don't think he is fool.


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## denel

Silicon0000 said:


> Happy Dreams Guys ...... But no new F-16 unless heavily subsidized by US.


Take the used ones simple. that is where the push needs to be.

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## MastanKhan

FuturePAF said:


> Everyone has a difficult time dealing with Trump. Lindsay Graham speaks his mind, and to some extent Trump respects that. Respects gets your voice heard in the halls of power. In fact, Lindsay Graham was with Pence at the southern border today, which goes to show how close Lindsay Graham is with the top leadership. These are two senior republicans and part of the establishment. Trump needs them to reassure the donors for the 2020 election. Graham may not be there at the meeting, but as part of the establishment, their interests will have to be taken into consideration.
> 
> A Large Arms deal for South Carolina based F-16 Plant, The missiles are made in a plant in Tucson Arizona, and suppliers for all the various sub-systems are spread throughout the country. SLEP: service life extension program for the used F-16s would be done in Ogden Utah if I'm not mistaken. So there is a lot of work that can be spread among Republican States. These used birds are worth the money because according to the following article; service life can potentially be safely extended up to 15,000 hours.
> 
> https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...ife-but-will-have-to-compete-for-opportunity/
> 
> https://www.afmc.af.mil/News/Articl...-a-great-deal-for-department-of-defense-taxp/



Hi,

After all the contract signing and deals being done---there is no guarantee that the aircraft will be delivered to Pakistan.

Because they can be held back on the whim of any congressman or senator---.

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## Trailer23

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> After all the contract signing and deals being done---there is no guarabtee that the aircraft will be delievered to Pakistan.
> 
> Because they can be held back on the whim of any congressman or senator---.


Perhaps, but there isn't the need for a up front payment (in full) either.

We sure as hell don't want to be told, "...eh yeah, about that - how 'bout you take rice & wheat 'cause the F-16's ain't happening".

Besides even they're not dumb enough to pull a stunt like that twice 'cause who's to say we back out of our Agreements relating to whatever they ask for.

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## Flight of falcon

Before we make any agreement we must put clauses where American companies will be penalized if they fail to deliver (wishful thinking). 
I doubt Americans can be trusted . Just see what they did to Iranian deal and Sanctioning our equipment is a piece of cake for them. ...


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## MastanKhan

Trailer23 said:


> Perhaps, but there isn't the need for a up front payment (in full) either.We sure as hell don't want to be told, "...eh yeah, about that - how 'bout you take rice & wheat 'cause the F-16's ain't happening".Besides even they're not dumb enough to pull a stunt like that twice 'cause who's to say we back out of our Agreements relating to whatever they ask for.





Flight of falcon said:


> Before we make any agreement we must put clauses where American companies will be penalized if they fail to deliver (wishful thinking).
> I doubt Americans can be trusted . Just see what they did to Iranian deal and Sanctioning our equipment is a piece of cake for them. ...




Hi,

You need to understand you are dealing with the american congress & senate---. Anything can happen---. They don't give a sh-it if the company is penalized---.

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## Trailer23

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You need to understand you are dealing with the american congress & senate---. Anything can happen---. They don't give a sh-it if the company is penalized---.


One response to two entirely different situations.

My post was directed towards our stand and cooperation towards the stability in Afghanistan. Yeah we get it that the US Congress & Senate don't give a sh!t. But they're the ones who need us too. So they better not pull that crap this time around.

If memory serves me, the very same Congress & Senate really (did) give a sh!t when we shut down their NATO supply to Afghanistan.

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## MastanKhan

Trailer23 said:


> One response to two entirely different situations.
> 
> My post was directed towards our stand and cooperation towards the stability in Afghanistan. Yeah we get it that the US Congress & Senate don't give a sh!t. But they're the ones who need us too. So they better not pull that crap this time around.
> 
> If memory serves me, the very same Congress & Senate really (did) give a sh!t when we shut down their NATO supply to Afghanistan.



Hi,

Those days are gone---.

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## Trailer23

Yeah, those days of blocking the NATO supply are, but what's to prevent Pakistan from putting a wrench in their further Afghanistan plans...

Lets face it, even the US (Congress & Senate included) know that this time around we're not desperate for their equipment & can walk away from the table empty handed.

A repeat is not on the cards, no matter how big of a fan one could be of the US & their shift in policies.

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## denel

Trailer23 said:


> Perhaps, but there isn't the need for a up front payment (in full) either.
> 
> We sure as hell don't want to be told, "...eh yeah, about that - how 'bout you take rice & wheat 'cause the F-16's ain't happening".
> 
> Besides even they're not dumb enough to pull a stunt like that twice 'cause who's to say we back out of our Agreements relating to whatever they ask for.


Nope ... ever heard of payment upon delivery!?

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## Khafee

denel said:


> Nope ... ever heard of payment upon delivery!?


It's in tranches, not one shot.

And the 1st one is *before* they start work.

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## denel

Khafee said:


> It's in tranches, not one shot.
> 
> And the 1st one is *before* they start work.


yes but given the history of these bigots, payment upon delivery is the only way; let the US govt put in the promisory notes; a pity there is no one to drive hard bargain from Pak side.

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## Trailer23

denel said:


> Nope ... ever heard of payment upon delivery!?


If we had the option of Payment upon Delivery back in the 90's, we wouldn't have been screwed over.

Lets see what the future holds.

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## Khafee

denel said:


> yes but given the history of these bigots, payment upon delivery is the only way; let the US govt put in the promisory notes; a pity there is no one to drive hard bargain from Pak side.


You fail to understand, to get cutting edge, reliable tech, the buyer has to sacrifice, not the seller. 

Secondly, and most importantly, the T&C is created in such a manner, as to lock in the buyer, product & policy wise.

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## denel

Khafee said:


> You fail to understand, to get cutting edge, reliable tech, the buyer has to sacrifice, not the seller.
> 
> Secondly, and most importantly, the T&C is created in such a manner, as to lock in the buyer, product & policy wise.


I do understand very well - it is about negotiating. Everything is possible. Guarantees can be provided by the seller to the consortium doing the selling. Given if a client has been screwed again and again, you want to do the same once more? No.

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## FuturePAF

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> After all the contract signing and deals being done---there is no guarantee that the aircraft will be delivered to Pakistan.
> 
> Because they can be held back on the whim of any congressman or senator---.



That is true, but we also need to take the chance of getting equipment our pilots are already trained on, and that we have built the requisite infrastructure to accommodate. Should we not be able to acquire the F-16 Block 70 and/or used F-16s and the upgrade kits to bring them to a similar standard, we need to show our money can be spent on Chinese J-10CE aircraft.

Furthermore, Pakistan will have to demonstrate that it will seek to strategically align more so with the interests of those that align with Pakistan. The episode of the closure of the GLOCs could be raised as Pakistan just not participating in the strategic needs of others if others don't respect the strategic needs of Pakistan.

Some Senators and Congresspersons may want to prevent introduction of advanced technology into the region, but 18-36 F-16 Block 70 with AESA radars should not be seen as changing the strategic balance when Indian is to acquire 36 AESA equipped Rafales this year. Furthermore the Indians are buying hundreds and hundreds of air to air missiles, which should be seen as destabilizing. *The "F**ebruary** Skirmish", of all things, shows Pakistan has demonstrated it showed restraint, used the F-16s in a limited manner, and de-escalated the situation at the first possible instance.* *The F-16s maintained a minimum threshold, that gave options to the Pakistani military, so that the conflict, need not escalate due to Indian miscalculations. It bought the world time to let saner heads prevail, as intended when the were sold earlier this decade. This is the basis upon which the US should sell the F-16 Block 70 to Pakistan alongside the Aim-120C7 and Aim-9X-II. These are the talking points the senators and congresspersons need to be told. *

Our goal should be getting a decent number of F-16 Block 70/72s; 18,24, or 36 to form a qualitative spearhead per F-16 Squadron of 2,3, or 4 planes; but the missiles that go along with them need to be as modern as possible; Aim-120C7 and Aim-9X-II, as well as the option to get a large number of used F-16s (along with MLU Kits) to replace the oldest Mirages in our Fleet. 4 Aesa Equipped F-16s per squadron should be enough to guide the rest of the fleet, with the right tactics, and save us enough money to not put all our eggs in one basket.



mingle said:


> It's more bull than reality he is president and sherewed businessman not a university professor America is doing very good under his term Economically and he is also getting out from useless conflicts which draining US Tax payer Dollars and US lives simple don't think he is fool.



He also wants to be seen as winning "Bigly", hence the North Korean forays. He needs a big foreign policy victory that he can tout before the 2020 elections. Afghanistan would be Huuuge. 
Helping Pakistan can help him. That too with taxpayer money to US companies. A few billion spend on weapons to a "rediscovered Ally and partner" versus tens of billions a year into a quagmire should be a no-brainer. Especially if it comes with help in ensuring the peace of the region. It can be the basis for a narrative that shows him as a peace maker and deal broker, and a solid choice for those that he may have lost over years, as we close in on 2020.

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## MastanKhan

FuturePAF said:


> That is true, but we also need to take the chance of getting equipment our pilots are already trained on, and that we have built the requisite infrastructure to accommodate. Should we not be able to acquire the F-16 Block 70 and/or used F-16s and the upgrade kits to bring them to a similar standard, we need to show our money can be spent on Chinese J-10CE aircraft.




Hi,

These pilots need to learn to fly something else---.

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## The Eagle

Khafee said:


> You fail to understand, to get cutting edge, reliable tech, the buyer has to sacrifice, not the seller.
> 
> Secondly, and most importantly, the T&C is created in such a manner, as to lock in the buyer, product & policy wise.



Once proposed to create an LC and then a Bank will issue guarantee whereby amount will be released upon delivery of product while till then, it remains with Bank. Don't know why but never pushed hard for it.

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## Khafee

The Eagle said:


> Once proposed to create an LC and then a Bank will issue guarantee whereby amount will be released upon delivery of product while till then, it remains with Bank. Don't know why but never pushed hard for it.


Sir, These deals, do not work this way. 

Like I said earlier, even before the manufacturer moves, you put down a down payment, and then as per the stages of production you pay. Final Amt is before delivery.

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## ARMalik

The Eagle said:


> Once proposed to create an LC and then a Bank will issue guarantee whereby amount will be released upon delivery of product while till then, it remains with Bank. Don't know why but never pushed hard for it.



Just adding to what you are saying mate. The nature of contracts has become complex. The foremost is the way the contract is written between the seller and the buyer, and the bank is simply the facilitator and implementer of the contract. If the contract can clearly specify the dollar amount of installments and the amount of final payment and when it is made. 

Another important aspect that the buyer seriously needs to consider is buying 'Premium Insurance' to cover its purchase. Here is a small example, when I buy using Paypal, I am insured in case the product does not arrive or is defective and so on. Insurance is an additional expense, but the Government of Pakistan needs to take out insurance to ensure product delivery.


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## araz

Trailer23 said:


> Yeah, those days of blocking the NATO supply are, but what's to prevent Pakistan from putting a wrench in their further Afghanistan plans...
> 
> Lets face it, even the US (Congress & Senate included) know that this time around we're not desperate for their equipment & can walk away from the table empty handed.
> 
> A repeat is not on the cards, no matter how big of a fan one could be of the US & their shift in policies.


Hence we need to see how well the cards are played.
A



Trailer23 said:


> If we had the option of Payment upon Delivery back in the 90's, we wouldn't have been screwed over.
> 
> Lets see what the future holds.


But we had PPP nincunmpoops handling the affairs. Even if we had not put down our own payment and asked for a loan instead of showing off this would have been dealt with. Anyways once bitten twice shy.
A

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## MIRauf

I would like to say try the lease to buy option if available, but then I will be reminded of Brooke / Garcia lease deal.

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## Trailer23

MIRauf said:


> I would like to say try the lease to buy option if available, but then I will be reminded of Brooke / Garcia lease deal.


The Brooke & what deal  ?!!


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## denel

MIRauf said:


> I would like to say try the lease to buy option if available, but then I will be reminded of Brooke / Garcia lease deal.


NO WAY!!!. LEASING IS most stupidiest way; you enrich the middlemen.



Khafee said:


> Sir, These deals, do not work this way.
> 
> Like I said earlier, even before the manufacturer moves, you put down a down payment, and then as per the stages of production you pay. Final Amt is before delivery.


Let us leave it; you dont see what i am trying to say.


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## Khafee

Trailer23 said:


> The Brooke & what deal  ?!!


Brooke & Garcia class USN frigates, which were leased to PN, for 5yrs.

If my memory serves me right they arrived in 1988 ~1989.

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## araz

Trailer23 said:


> The Brooke & what deal  ?!!


Brooke and Garcia class US frigates were leased to PN. They wer taken back on expiry of term( Cant remember whether the term was completed or they were unceremoniously taken back ) by US in spite of fact they would not have played any major role in the USN. PN desperately went out looking for replacements and bought the 6 type 21s from UK.
A

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## MIRauf

5 year lease and were returned at the end of lease as Pentagon couldn't get approval to re-new or expand the lease. Not sure what all the skinny behind the deal was, as to what PN was thinking, was it that US will hand over to PN after 5 years as aid ? huge set back for PN.

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## Trailer23

Fancy ordering a F-16 t-shirt...

Checkout: https://checksixstore.com/#shop

They have some great designs of all your favorite Aircrafts (Past & Present):

*General Dynamics F-16 (Fighting Falcon)*






*Lockheed Martin F-16 (Viper)*



Now, they have some great designs. I personally loved...:
1. Lockheed U-2 (Dragon Lady).
2. Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II (Warthog)...*ofcourse*
3. Lockheed F-117 (Nighthawk) - Absolutely stunning design.
4. Eurofighter Typhoon - I wished they had done this design for the F-16.

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## Trailer23

Pardon the audio...

https://pikdo.net/p/general_duty_pilots/2090910121755737691_4962275123


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## mingle

Khafee said:


> Brooke & Garcia class USN frigates, which were leased to PN, for 5yrs.
> 
> If my memory serves me right they arrived in 1988 ~1989.


Will Pak get any fighter jet deal from US?? Where US and GCC relations stands after house block 8.1 billion deal??

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## aliyusuf

I have a query.

The *F-16 Blocks 25,32,42 & 52* have the NSI (Normal Shock Inlet) Intake called *"Smallmouth" Intake*.
These are the blocks which have the *Pratt & Whitney* engines.

The *F-16 Blocks 30,40 & 50* have the MCID (Modular Common Inlet Duet) Intake called *"Bigmouth" Intake*.
These are the blocks which have the *General Electric* engines.











Shouldn't this affect the RCS of these two separate block series?

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## airomerix

aliyusuf said:


> I have a query.
> 
> The *F-16 Blocks 25,32,42 & 52* have the NSI (Normal Shock Inlet) Intake called *"Smallmouth" Intake*.
> These are the blocks which have the *Pratt & Whitney* engines.
> 
> The *F-16 Blocks 30,40 & 50* have the MCID (Modular Common Inlet Duet) Intake called *"Bigmouth" Intake*.
> These are the blocks which have the *General Electric* engines.
> 
> View attachment 570007
> 
> 
> Shouldn't this affect the RCS of these two separate block series?



The overall area cross section remains the same. Hence no affect on RCS.

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## Khafee

aliyusuf said:


> I have a query.
> 
> The *F-16 Blocks 25,32,42 & 52* have the NSI (Normal Shock Inlet) Intake called *"Smallmouth" Intake*.
> These are the blocks which have the *Pratt & Whitney* engines.
> 
> The *F-16 Blocks 30,40 & 50* have the MCID (Modular Common Inlet Duet) Intake called *"Bigmouth" Intake*.
> These are the blocks which have the *General Electric* engines.
> 
> View attachment 570007
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shouldn't this affect the RCS of these two separate block series?


Very interesting question!

Head on - there is a slight diff in RCS, sideways & rear remain the same.

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## Trailer23

Resemblance is uncanny...

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## Khafee

mingle said:


> Will Pak get any fighter jet deal from US?? Where US and GCC relations stands after house block 8.1 billion deal??



I will not comment of PAF's future plans.

On GCC- A different thread would be more appropriate. Tag me, IA I will reply.

Best Regards



airomerix said:


> The overall area cross section remains the same. Hence no affect on RCS.


AESA radars, have made a fundamental change in RCS detection. What was true yesterday, is not true today.

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## Trailer23

*NO Audio*


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## Sinnerman108

Trailer23 said:


> Resemblance is uncanny...
> 
> View attachment 570093


that fish swims super sonic ?

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## loanranger

How do you like it?

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## Khafee

loanranger said:


> How do you like it?

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## aliyusuf

loanranger said:


> How do you like it?


Very nice video and nice song.

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## loanranger

aliyusuf said:


> Very nice video and nice song.


Thanks the song seemed to suited really well....
I wish we could have even more videos of PAF....


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## Khafee

loanranger said:


> Thanks the song seemed to suited really well....
> I wish we could have even more videos of PAF....


PN & PA as well. It's important to show kids stuff like this.

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## loanranger

Khafee said:


> PN & PA as well. It's important to show kids stuff like this.


Definitely, people join the army after getting inspired....

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## Khafee

loanranger said:


> Definitely, people join the army after getting inspired....


You should start a thread, on what inspires people to join the forces.

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## zulu

Very nice suggestion esp those who are in services attracts many by posting their exp,charm of that life surely it will attract many young kids its dream job once they realize 


Khafee said:


> You should start a thread, on what inspires people to join the forces.

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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> These pilots need to learn to fly something else---.



What would you suggest now as an alternative? I can only think of MiG-35, Su-35 and J-10


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## TOPGUN

My all time fav fighter


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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> What would you suggest now as an alternative? I can only think of MiG-35, Su-35 and J-10



Hi,

J10's or more F16's.

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## mingle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> J10's or more F16's.


I believe F16s r coming in good numbers thoughts ask for LM to move Pak or build a technical facility at Kamra

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## TOPGUN

mingle said:


> I believe F16s r coming in good numbers thoughts ask for LM to move Pak or build a technical facility at Kamra



And what makes you think they are coming in good numbers ?


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## mingle

TOPGUN said:


> And what makes you think they are coming in good numbers ?


Sir we need more F16s J10 won't serve the purpose money is not an issue any more with CSF.India not buying theior jetts and after Bulgaria there r no more orders.

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## Trailer23

mingle said:


> Sir we need more F16s J10 won't serve the purpose money is not an issue any more with CSF.India not buying theior jetts and after Bulgaria there r no more orders.


You know, if memory serves, not too long ago - similar statements were made.

After _Bahrain_ there are no more orders.

Then came, after _Slovakia_ there are no more orders.

Followed by, after _Morocco_ there are no more orders.

Later it became, after _Taiwan_ there are no more orders.

So it doesn't surprise me when I hear, after _Bulgaria_ there are no more orders.

I read that the US was looking to sell F-16's to _Colombia_ to counter Venezuela.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/07/1...-u-s-military-seeks-to-sell-arms-to-colombia/

I still believe that EU Nations that can't afford the F-35, will continue to purchase the modern F-16's. And then there is always: Egypt, the UAE, Oman that have a lot of faith in the F-16's.

I think a fair assessment is pretty obvious that India isn't going for any of the US Jets, be it F-18 or the F-16/F21.

Russia may turn a cheek on India procuring European equipment, but I doubt the trust will ever be the same if they bought something with the label 'Made in USA'.

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## mingle

Trailer23 said:


> You know, if memory serves, not too long ago - similar statements were made.
> 
> After _Bahrain_ there are no more orders.
> 
> Then came, after _Slovakia_ there are no more orders.
> 
> Followed by, after _Morocco_ there are no more orders.
> 
> Later it became, after _Taiwan_ there are no more orders.
> 
> So it doesn't surprise me when I hear, after _Bulgaria_ there are no more orders.
> 
> I read that the US was looking to sell F-16's to _Colombia_ to counter Venezuela.
> https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/07/1...-u-s-military-seeks-to-sell-arms-to-colombia/
> 
> I still believe that EU Nations that can't afford the F-35, will continue to purchase the modern F-16's. And then there is always: Egypt, the UAE, Oman that have a lot of faith in the F-16's.
> 
> I think a fair assessment is pretty obvious that India isn't going for any of the US Jets, be it F-18 or the F-16/F21.
> 
> Russia may turn a cheek on India procuring European equipment, but I doubt the trust will ever be the same if they bought something with the label 'Made in USA'.


India latest is Mig 35 with isreal electronics and missles instead of F21or Hornets Bulgaria ordered only 8 blk 72 that's it.pak ties with US are reset and this time long term and also across the political spectrum meant Democrats as well its great news for Pak. Things r sorting out will take month or two but eventually will happen they know our romance with F16 s and F16 is till America s kamao putter with CSF release money is not an issue anymore Govt should add bit more and make one huge military package.

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## Trailer23

mingle said:


> India latest is Mig 35 with isreal electronics and missles instead of F21or Hornets Bulgaria ordered only 8 blk 72 that's it.pak ties with US are reset and this time long term and also across the political spectrum meant Democrats as well its great news for Pak. Things r sorting out will take month or two but eventually will happen they know our romance with F16 s and F16 is till America s kamao putter with CSF release money is not an issue anymore Govt should add bit more and make one huge military package.


I'm certainly not contesting the points you've made, but I also do not believe the F-16 a dead-stick since you yourself termed it as a 'kamao putter' for the US. Yeah, it'd be great to get as many as we can - but I do not believe that Pakistan is their only option when there are deeper pockets.

I will say that (when) India officially rejects the F-21 - we should be first in line to get our hands on it. Unlike F-16, the F-21 doesn't require a boom for Air-to-Air refueling and so our IL-76 can accommodate it.

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## mingle

Trailer23 said:


> I'm certainly not contesting the points you've made, but I also do not believe the F-16 a dead-stick since you yourself termed it as a 'kamao putter' for the US. Yeah, it'd be great to get as many as we can - but I do not believe that Pakistan is their only option when there are deeper pockets.
> 
> I will say that (when) India officially rejects the F-21 - we should be first in line to get our hands on it. Unlike F-16, the F-21 doesn't require a boom for Air-to-Air refueling and so our IL-76 can accommodate it.


F16 blk 72 is even better than F35 in many ways we have a sizeable fleet we need local maintenance.With F21 along JF17 also project Azam I must say we r in safeside. Also we need to upgrade P3c Navy also looking jet powered Anti sub and recon system Cheif was US last visit Express desire for P8 So good times a head IA.

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## Trailer23

mingle said:


> F16 blk 72 is even better than F35 in many ways we have a sizeable fleet we need local maintenance.


I'm not sure if I understand what you're implying in regard to the F-35 (JSF). Are you stating that the F-16 is better on a whole than the F-35, or for us (PAF), F-16 makes more sense since we've got knowledge, experience & obviously in numbers...

I have raised questions on the F-21 in the past in this Thread & the Questions thread. What exactly does it bring to the table other than the conventional F-16 (Block 72) & what exactly is the difference in price tag between the two?

---------------------

After I posted this, @Khafee dropped a F-16 Block 72 bomb on new Topic - so lets forget the whole F-21 discussion...

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## Trailer23



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## Ahmet Pasha

America warming up to us is only cuz of Afghanistan. The rest of the game US has set up in the region vis a vis Iran-Saudi-Israel is too confrontational and just asking for war.

This might very well be just another transaction US does with Pakistan. We need to be careful.


mingle said:


> India latest is Mig 35 with isreal electronics and missles instead of F21or Hornets Bulgaria ordered only 8 blk 72 that's it.pak ties with US are reset and this time long term and also across the political spectrum meant Democrats as well its great news for Pak. Things r sorting out will take month or two but eventually will happen they know our romance with F16 s and F16 is till America s kamao putter with CSF release money is not an issue anymore Govt should add bit more and make one huge military package.

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## Ali_Baba

Trailer23 said:


>



DCW World is amazing, it is taking over the world as far as flight sims go. Its even better in VR !


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## HAIDER

Here is list of most recent International contracts of LM. Don't see any new F16 procurement listed yet, only Pakistan F16 upgrade is mention .

https://news.lockheedmartin.com/new...dvanced+Targeting+Pod&have_asset_types=1&l=50

@Irfan Baloch

Some fanboy quoted the news here . lol

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## mingle

HAIDER said:


> Here is list of most recent International contracts of LM. Don't see any new F16 procurement listed yet, only Pakistan F16 upgrade is mention .
> 
> https://news.lockheedmartin.com/new...dvanced+Targeting+Pod&have_asset_types=1&l=50
> 
> @Irfan Baloch
> 
> Some fanboy quoted the news here . lol


Shah G it could be agreement on principles not final draft so we will see draft on website when deal final will take time fingers crossed


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## Silicon0000

Upgrade to V-Config without purchase of newer plane or with purchase of older plane with v upgrade is far more better option/deal then with purchase of newer plane unless it's heavily subsidized or part payment through CSF.

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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> India latest is Mig 35 with isreal electronics and missles instead of F21or Hornets Bulgaria ordered only 8 blk 72 that's it.pak ties with US are reset and this time long term and also across the political spectrum meant Democrats as well its great news for Pak. Things r sorting out will take month or two but eventually will happen they know our romance with F16 s and F16 is till America s kamao putter with CSF release money is not an issue anymore Govt should add bit more and make one huge military package.


if f16s are available govt should bit the dust and go for one time big purchase..t129 and everything esle comes second, these windows dont open up again and again, however, only if it is subsidized(FMS) otherwise better to just get a less restrictive plateform..

a 2005-6 deal of 55 F16c/d with 36 new and 30 old would be great but i doubt USA will offer used EDA stock ones..their isnt much lobbying for used ones...as it more attractive for USA if another nations gets new ones..they even blocked the used ones to NATO alley Croatia to force them to buy new ones

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## HAIDER

ziaulislam said:


> if f16s are available govt should bit the dust and go for one time big purchase..t129 and everything esle comes second, these windows dont open up again and again, however, only if it is subsidized(FMS) otherwise better to just get a less restrictive plateform..
> 
> a 2005-6 deal of 55 F16c/d with 36 new and 30 old would be great but i doubt USA will offer used EDA stock ones..their isnt much lobbying for used ones...as it more attractive for USA if another nations gets new ones..they even blocked the used ones to NATO alley Croatia to force them to buy new ones


Buy as many you can ..

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## Tamiyah

HAIDER said:


> Buy as many you can ..
> 
> View attachment 571481
> 
> View attachment 571483


BTW will these work if they are needed?

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## loanranger

Are these potential f 16s of ours better than the Rafale?


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## Ultima Thule

loanranger said:


> Are these potential f 16s of ours better than the Rafale?


If not better but at least on Par to RAFALE @loanranger

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## Aamir Hussain

They are in storage. And they do work once taken out of storage and taken trough SLEP, STAR, and MLU and overall upgrade of engine and radar etc.

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## ziaulislam

HAIDER said:


> Buy as many you can ..
> 
> View attachment 571481
> 
> View attachment 571483


Oh i wish..they wont sell old stuff

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## Gorgin Khan

I think that with the induction of F-35s these stored f-16s are some how loosing the probability of being put on US service again . So they might want to get rid of some . Its a win-win for both parties

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## mingle

Tamiyah said:


> BTW will these work if they are needed?


They are as reserve stock in case of War

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## HAIDER

*Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s*

*https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...es-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/*

I think Pakistan still has option to buy 18 more F16 with full payment.

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## denel

HAIDER said:


> *Billions to Upgrade and Up-arm Pakistan’s F-16s*
> 
> *https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...es-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/*
> 
> I think Pakistan still has option to buy 18 more F16 with full payment.


Correction : it is just monitoring nothing more. Option was there but funds being problem then. 
As I have said, i remain very skeptical overall of news from this thread for anything news; focus needs to be if possible retrieve as many used units with upgrades to be followed; anything else may be bonus

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## CHI RULES

denel said:


> Correction : it is just monitoring nothing more. Option was there but funds being problem then.
> As I have said, i remain very skeptical overall of news from this thread for anything news; focus needs to be if possible retrieve as many used units with upgrades to be followed; anything else may be bonus



Sir your comments requested is it not possible for Pakistan to get the stored F16s from USA cheaply and then get them upgraded on available V upgrade package from USA along with some squadrons of already acquired ones.


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## HAIDER

after Afganistan peace accord, Pakistan will get remaining 18 F16 from CSF funds. Remember it is part of previous contract. 18+18 contract

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## MIRauf

Are we sure that the previous option of 18 hasn't lapsed yet ? My understanding is that it expired back in 2010/2012 time frame, give or take +/- couple of years.

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## denel

CHI RULES said:


> Sir your comments requested is it not possible for Pakistan to get the stored F16s from USA cheaply and then get them upgraded on available V upgrade package from USA along with some squadrons of already acquired ones.


That is always the lowest cost factor but it all depends how much LM can gain in terms of work. Multiple options which Bilal had illuded to. Alternatively so many EU have surplus stock for sale as well.

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## Tank131

Please everyone thinking the 18 +18 contract exists...update yourselves. The timeframe to exercise the option expired. It had a time line to it and that time is gone. The option no longer exists. This deal would be a new one all together. 

That being said, the cheapest option for more F-16 is scooping up A/B that are being sold (example the ex-Jordanian airframes). Then would be retired US stock then surplus. The most expensive is newbuild E/F models. If PAF is really getting the blk 72 and the SABR upgrade, they should ztart by acquiring Jordan F-16s. This was previously blocked by US. Until that happens and th AH-1Z are released and/or the engines for mangusta areallowed to ve sold, I don't see this deal happening.

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## air marshal



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## Imran Khan

air marshal said:


>


f104 flying ?


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## denel

Tank131 said:


> Please everyone thinking the 18 +18 contract exists...update yourselves. The timeframe to exercise the option expired. It had a time line to it and that time is gone. The option no longer exists. This deal would be a new one all together.
> 
> That being said, the cheapest option for more F-16 is scooping up A/B that are being sold (example the ex-Jordanian airframes). Then would be retired US stock then surplus. The most expensive is newbuild E/F models. If PAF is really getting the blk 72 and the SABR upgrade, they should ztart by acquiring Jordan F-16s. This was previously blocked by US. Until that happens and th AH-1Z are released and/or the engines for mangusta areallowed to ve sold, I don't see this deal happening.


corect; there is just an endless thread on blk70 going based on gossip; reality is it wont happen. just get the used ones as many as possible plus have a complete upgrade path to ensure everything is on common systems.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> corect; there is just an endless thread on blk70 going based on gossip; reality is it wont happen. just get the used ones as many as possible plus have a complete upgrade path to ensure everything is on common systems.


IMO ... it'd be easier to close the chapter on imported fighters. 

The PAF would be better served investing in turnkey manufacturing the air-to-air and air-to-surface munitions, configuring the JF-17 to optimal form (and adding more planes), and focusing on Project Azm.

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... it'd be easier to close the chapter on imported fighters.
> 
> The PAF would be better served investing in turnkey manufacturing the air-to-air and air-to-surface munitions, configuring the JF-17 to optimal form (and adding more planes), and focusing on Project Azm.


i concur whole heartedly. They need to focus on blk3; learnings and probably plan for blk4 onwards as well.

the decades long blackmail of sanctions should be put to the side and forgotten.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> i concur whole heartedly. They need to focus on blk3; learnings and probably plan for blk4 onwards as well.
> 
> the decades long blackmail of sanctions should be put to the side and forgotten.


Agreed. Given its cost advantages, the JF-17 will remain indefinitely, it'll just evolve (much like the F-16) and -- ideally -- draw on the R&D work from Project Azm. I'd actually keep the JF-17 line and gradually expand it into a turnkey line in Kamra, while starting FGFA manufacturing in another area.

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Agreed. Given its cost advantages, the JF-17 will remain indefinitely, it'll just evolve (much like the F-16) and -- ideally -- draw on the R&D work from Project Azm. I'd actually keep the JF-17 line and gradually expand it into a turnkey line in Kamra, while starting FGFA manufacturing in another area.


absolutely, once the trainers come on line; there needs to be parallel R&D going to further evolving. I see the Blk 3 now as the baseline for future work.


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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... it'd be easier to close the chapter on imported fighters.
> 
> The PAF would be better served investing in turnkey manufacturing the air-to-air and air-to-surface munitions, configuring the JF-17 to optimal form (and adding more planes), and focusing on Project Azm.


We need one more generation of fighters before we say goodbye to imports of fighters. Perhaps the Azm project outcome would herald independence from Foreign imports. I agree thatcthis is the way to go but you must remember it was not long go we did not have a BVR Missile. No one would sell us one. China's rise in the avionics and aeeronautical industry has opened doors for us that were previously locked shut nd the keys thrown away. I guess we will pass that threshold in the next 15 years nd propel our industries forward but this requires hard work, perseverence and finances.
A

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

denel said:


> absolutely, once the trainers come on line; there needs to be parallel R&D going to further evolving. I see the Blk 3 now as the baseline for future work.


Indeed. Really, the clean break happened with the JF-17B, which probably led to the Block-3. Either way, it's a platform with a digital FBW, decent payload, decent range, an AESA radar, and a modern EW/ECM and avionics suite. What more do you need? Just add more of these fighters, and make them as good as possible.

If there's money floating about for a fighter import, I'd much rather put it towards the Denel Dynamics Marlin, A-Darter, Raptor III, and Umbani/Tariq projects. Let's make these munitions in Pakistan (turn-key). Let's also develop a lightweight supersonic AShM (similar to the BrahMos NG), perhaps using SomChem's LRTM R&D as the basis.

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## AsifIjaz

Paf needs an interim fighter between thunder / vipers and azm end product..
Its can either be newer block 72 or V upgrade of current or used vipers acquired from jordan
Or
It can be block 3 thunders upgraded further or newer block 4.
Mig35, typhoons etc wont cut it but may rather prove to be detrimental to local progress and budget management in the longer run.
Newer or upgraded Viperz wud be easiest way out and getting a thunder near that capability wud be mammoth task but one that wud make azm a comparatively easier to achieve reality.

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## Tank131

The problem with saying goodbye to impirted fighters is that PAF needs to replace 190 more fighters to replace. At the current pace of 24/year you need 7.5 mor years. Even then, im not sure blk 3 will be up to the Rafale challenge. Furthermore, AZM wont be ready by then. So you definitely need a stop gap in there. Whether that is more used F-16or the potential for blk 72 or even used with the entire fleet being upgraded to V standard, i thinknthe easiest way for PAF to get the stopgap is through more F-16. There remain 80 or so F-7P and 60 PG in PAF (give or take). Additionally there are 80 or so non-rose mirage that need replacement. With that said 36-40 additional F-16 would be a boon for PAF numbers and would enable the conversion of the majority of the F-7P in conjunction with another this years 24 blk 2 JF-17. That takes most of the main flying coffins out of the sky.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> The problem with saying goodbye to impirted fighters is that PAF needs to replace 190 more fighters to replace. At the current pace of 24/year you need 7.5 mor years. Even then, im not sure blk 3 will be up to the Rafale challenge. Furthermore, AZM wont be ready by then. So you definitely need a stop gap in there. Whether that is more used F-16or the potential for blk 72 or even used with the entire fleet being upgraded to V standard, i thinknthe easiest way for PAF to get the stopgap is through more F-16. There remain 80 or so F-7P and 60 PG in PAF (give or take). Additionally there are 80 or so non-rose mirage that need replacement. With that said 36-40 additional F-16 would be a boon for PAF numbers and would enable the conversion of the majority of the F-7P in conjunction with another this years 24 blk 2 JF-17. That takes most of the main flying coffins out of the sky.


IMO it doesn't make a difference either way.

The PAF didn't avail (or couldn't) used F-16s via EDA. Pakistan generally lacks the money to import new-build fighters. The Russian route is a no-go. And it's not even clear what happened to the J-10B/C route, if there was ever one, but the PAF walked away from the FC-20 due to a lack of funds. 

Basically, all we have now is adding JF-17s. Might as well push the output to the maximum rate possible (perhaps look at increasing it to 25-30 a year), or use whatever open funding we have to acquire longer-ranged and/or more effective AAM/ASM, radars, EW/ECM, etc., for the JF-17.

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## Nasr

At present, the most effective way forward is increasing the Viper fleet to above 130 fighters. At the same time, Pakistan Air Force needs to begin stockpiling large quantities of spare-parts for it's Viper fleet. And when I say spare-parts, I mean the core components that are pivotal to keep the fleet in the air. This includes engines, lots of them as well as looking to set up MRO facilities for the Viper fleet. Of course, if Pakistan Air Force has the option of upgrade to it's fleet, like the V-upgrade, then it should go for it. When Pakistan Air Force can achieve full MRO for Viper fleet, as well as have a large stockpile of core components. Then there isn't any need to look elsewhere for fighters and just focus on Thunder's upgrades and PAF's Gen-5 fighter program.

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## Khafee

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Indeed. Really, the clean break happened with the JF-17B, which probably led to the Block-3. Either way, it's a platform with a digital FBW, decent payload, decent range, an AESA radar, and a modern EW/ECM and avionics suite. What more do you need? Just add more of these fighters, and make them as good as possible.
> 
> If there's money floating about for a fighter import, I'd much rather put it towards the Denel Dynamics Marlin, A-Darter, Raptor III, and Umbani/Tariq projects. Let's make these munitions in Pakistan (turn-key). Let's also develop *a lightweight supersonic AShM (similar to the BrahMos NG),* perhaps using SomChem's LRTM R&D as the basis.


CX-1...?


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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

We order now we will get it in 100 years from USA 
It's best we make our JF17 Thunder Block 2 sufficient and proper , and await it's Block III upgrade


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## Quwa

Khafee said:


> CX-1...?


too heavy.

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## Khafee

Quwa said:


> too heavy.


A miniaturized one?

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## Quwa

Khafee said:


> A miniaturized one?


You'd probably have to design a smaller airbreathing engine (ramjet or scramjet) to do it though, otherwise you'd heavily compromise the range and payload when miniaturizing a supersonic AShM. That's why India and Russia are basically designing a new missile in the BrahMos NG

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## Stealth



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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Indeed. Really, the clean break happened with the JF-17B, which probably led to the Block-3. Either way, it's a platform with a digital FBW, decent payload, decent range, an AESA radar, and a modern EW/ECM and avionics suite. What more do you need? Just add more of these fighters, and make them as good as possible.
> 
> If there's money floating about for a fighter import, I'd much rather put it towards the Denel Dynamics Marlin, A-Darter, Raptor III, and Umbani/Tariq projects. Let's make these munitions in Pakistan (turn-key). Let's also develop a lightweight supersonic AShM (similar to the BrahMos NG), perhaps using SomChem's LRTM R&D as the basis.


Absolutely, that would be the next level of integration work. There is a lot of synergies from DD which can be had. Again I dont see integration with them being a challenge.

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## mshan44



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## Aamir Hussain

Not a lot of people will like what I write here but my 2C worth.

The most potent platform in PAF inventory today is the Viper with JHMCS and armed with AMRAAM!

logically, if things were good between US and GoP we should have gone for used F-16 and upgraded them in phases instead of buying new build platform due to lack of funds.

Current option available to us; get our 8 F-16's already built for us by asking our Arab brethren to fund the Aid component. They were being bought by a mixture of GoP sovereign funds and US Military Aid. Look for second hand a/c after the Afghan deal is done and delivered.

The core capability of the PAF for some time will remain around the 70 odd F-16's. Our deep strike will remain with Mirage a/c with various blocks of JF-17's rounding off the force with new build increasingly capable a/c with each block being introduced.

The game is, as we saw it, post Pulwama, is he who sees the enemy and blinds him first and strikes with long range weapons has more chances to score hits. This lesson clearly points towards a core of continuously upgraded force of EW & AWACS birds coupled with long range radars (or AESA equipped) equipped a/c with proven long range A2A missiles. 

The role of the deep strike interdiction a/c is forgotten in the hype of shooting down of the SU and the Mig but we need to look for options to get replacements for these aircraft sooner than later.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Aamir Hussain said:


> Not a lot of people will like what I write here but my 2C worth.
> 
> The most potent platform in PAF inventory today is the Viper with JHMCS and armed with AMRAAM!
> 
> logically, if things were good between US and GoP we should have gone for used F-16 and upgraded them in phases instead of buying new build platform due to lack of funds.
> 
> Current option available to us; get our 8 F-16's already built for us by asking our Arab brethren to fund the Aid component. They were being bought by a mixture of GoP sovereign funds and US Military Aid. Look for second hand a/c after the Afghan deal is done and delivered.
> 
> The core capability of the PAF for some time will remain around the 70 odd F-16's. Our deep strike will remain with Mirage a/c with various blocks of JF-17's rounding off the force with new build increasingly capable a/c with each block being introduced.
> 
> The game is, as we saw it, post Pulwama, is he who sees the enemy and blinds him first and strikes with long range weapons has more chances to score hits. This lesson clearly points towards a core of continuously upgraded force of EW & AWACS birds coupled with long range radars (or AESA equipped) equipped a/c with proven long range A2A missiles.
> 
> The role of the deep strike interdiction a/c is forgotten in the hype of shooting down of the SU and the Mig but we need to look for options to get replacements for these aircraft sooner than later.


I agree.

I think we've been taking some things for granted, but we're really, really forgetting how good the JF-17 actually is because we're always looking across the fence. The JF-17B/Block 3 is a 4+ gen platform -- digital 3-axis FBW, single panel display MFD, HMD/S, AESA radar, integrated EW/ECM, etc. 

This is a really good baseline, all we need to do now is invest in the best possible electronics (including radar) and air-to-air and air-to-surface munitions. Why import a few fighters when we can put that money into a GaN-based AESA radar and GaN TRM-based EW/ECM for the JF-17, and deploy those in sizable numbers? 

Even with deep strike, the JF-17 can get the job done provided we give it the right munitions. If the existing Ra'ad can't fit, then we need to develop a variant of Ra'ad that does. Sure, it'd be complex and pricey, but it wouldn't be as difficult and expensive as importing a strike-capable jet IMHO.

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If the existing Ra'ad can't fit, then we need to develop a variant of Ra'ad that does. Sure, it'd be complex and pricey, but it wouldn't be as difficult and expensive as importing a strike-capable jet IMHO.



This is what I have been trying to repeatedly say as well! Regardless of how I love the sleek lines of the Mirages, we can't keep them in service past a certain point just because they carry a strategic weapon. Instead that effort would be better spent on developing a newer/better/smarter weapon system that can be carried by every platform in your inventory.

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## araz

GriffinsRule said:


> This is what I have been trying to repeatedly say as well! Regardless of how I love the sleek lines of the Mirages, we can't keep them in service past a certain point just because they carry a strategic weapon. Instead that effort would be better spent on developing a newer/better/smarter weapon system that can be carried by every platform in your inventory.


For Pak to run two parralel programmes side by side would be impossible economically and managerially. So it is either a case of JFT OR XYZ. So there is a need for an intermediate fighter. The factor most responsible for the delay is finance. While People are blaming PAF for not replacing 190 legacy fighters they dont look at the fact that our much more richer neighbour has also not been able to do so.
With EU countries, UK, France all reducing fighter numbers it is obvious that thew price factor has begun to hit everyone. We on the other hand in spite of our weak financial position cannot afford to do so. So where do we go and what do we do? I dont think the wesern platforms are affordable anymore with the exception of the 16s due to our established setup. The restrictions on the 16s mean we still cannot achieve our aims fully. So do we go for J10Cs or J11 series if available? that is the question worth ananswer!!!
Regards

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## GriffinsRule

araz said:


> For Pak to run two parralel programmes side by side would be impossible economically and managerially. So it is either a case of JFT OR XYZ. So there is a need for an intermediate fighter. The factor most responsible for the delay is finance. While People are blaming PAF for not replacing 190 legacy fighters they dont look at the fact that our much more richer neighbour has also not been able to do so.
> With EU countries, UK, France all reducing fighter numbers it is obvious that thew price factor has begun to hit everyone. We on the other hand in spite of our weak financial position cannot afford to do so. So where do we go and what do we do? I dont think the wesern platforms are affordable anymore with the exception of the 16s due to our established setup. The restrictions on the 16s mean we still cannot achieve our aims fully. So do we go for J10Cs or J11 series if available? that is the question worth ananswer!!!
> Regards


A weapons program is such cheaper than a jet. I am proposing new weapons for jf-17 as it's the mainstay of our fleet for next three decades

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## messiach

Definitely yes, case in mirages.


GriffinsRule said:


> A weapons program is such cheaper than a jet. U am proposing new weapons for jf-17 as it's the mainstay of our fleet for next three decades

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## MastanKhan

Aamir Hussain said:


> Not a lot of people will like what I write here but my 2C worth.
> 
> The most potent platform in PAF inventory today is the Viper with JHMCS and armed with AMRAAM!
> 
> logically, if things were good between US and GoP we should have gone for used F-16 and upgraded them in phases instead of buying new build platform due to lack of funds.
> 
> Current option available to us; get our 8 F-16's already built for us by asking our Arab brethren to fund the Aid component. They were being bought by a mixture of GoP sovereign funds and US Military Aid. Look for second hand a/c after the Afghan deal is done and delivered.
> 
> The core capability of the PAF for some time will remain around the 70 odd F-16's. Our deep strike will remain with Mirage a/c with various blocks of JF-17's rounding off the force with new build increasingly capable a/c with each block being introduced.
> 
> The game is, as we saw it, post Pulwama, is he who sees the enemy and blinds him first and strikes with long range weapons has more chances to score hits. This lesson clearly points towards a core of continuously upgraded force of EW & AWACS birds coupled with long range radars (or AESA equipped) equipped a/c with proven long range A2A missiles.
> 
> The role of the deep strike interdiction a/c is forgotten in the hype of shooting down of the SU and the Mig but we need to look for options to get replacements for these aircraft sooner than later.



Hi,

You are correct in your assessment. Why did we not go for the used F16's earlier---.

Was the Paf too sure of itself about what it could get---.

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## Dazzler



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## Stealth

__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## Tank131

So a couple of points i want to make. Regarding deep strike, we are fixating on RA'AD and for good reason, but frankly RA'AD is a long range weapon that PAF could theoretically mount to any number of platforms beyond JF-17. I mean like getting more ATR or cn-235 type aircraft and mounting 4 RA'AD on them (similar to P-3C carrying harpoon). But you could also just try and modify landing gears to give you more ground clearance as well.

Beyond this there are other weapons systems you can seek like Raptor 3 which has ranges of almost 300km. PAF has already integrated H2/Raptor (60km), H-4/Raptor II (120km), LS-6 (60KM), and REKS/Takbir (60-100km), MAR-1 (ARM) which gives a great arsenal for standoff range strike. Most of these weapons could be fired from inside Pakistan and hit positions in India so adding Raptor III would give you the necessary range you need even if Ra'ad was not able to be placed on JF-17, in order to give you a strong A2G capabilities. JF-17 has a strong potential for A2G and can carry more weapons than the Mirage so if necessary it is more than able to fill that role.

Beyond the weapons, If there is going to be no further pursuit of F-16 (or upgrades to the fleet), then the entire JF-17 fleet should be upgraded with the air cooled version of whichever radar goes into the Blk-3 be it KLJ-7A (which has both liquid and air cooled versions), Grifo-E, or the LKF601E which is the radar which is apparently favored by AVIC per Allen Warnes. That will go a long way towards improving the quality level of the overall fleet. The entire fleet should be equipped PL-15 and Pl-10 along with HMD/cueing system.

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## MastanKhan

Tank131 said:


> So a couple of points i want to make. Regarding deep strike, we are fixating on RA'AD and for good reason, but frankly RA'AD is a long range weapon that PAF could theoretically mount to any number of platforms beyond JF-17. I mean like getting more ATR or cn-235 type aircraft and mounting 4 RA'AD on them (similar to P-3C carrying harpoon). But you could also just try and modify landing gears to give you more ground clearance as well.
> 
> Beyond this there are other weapons systems you can seek like Raptor 3 which has ranges of almost 300km. PAF has already integrated H2/Raptor (60km), H-4/Raptor II (120km), LS-6 (60KM), and REKS/Takbir (60-100km), MAR-1 (ARM) which gives a great arsenal for standoff range strike. Most of these weapons could be fired from inside Pakistan and hit positions in India so adding Raptor III would give you the necessary range you need even if Ra'ad was not able to be placed on JF-17, in order to give you a strong A2G capabilities. JF-17 has a strong potential for A2G and can carry more weapons than the Mirage so if necessary it is more than able to fill that role.
> 
> Beyond the weapons, If there is going to be no further pursuit of F-16 (or upgrades to the fleet), then the entire JF-17 fleet should be upgraded with the air cooled version of whichever radar goes into the Blk-3 be it KLJ-7A (which has both liquid and air cooled versions), Grifo-E, or the LKF601E which is the radar which is apparently favored by AVIC per Allen Warnes. That will go a long way towards improving the quality level of the overall fleet. The entire fleet should be equipped PL-15 and Pl-10 along with HMD/cueing system.



Hi,

For ground strike---mirage 3 / 5. Isn't the reason to acquire all able bodied mirage 3 /5 for that purpose---.

An upgraded mirage 3/5 is an excellent excellent investment for a smart weapons delivery system---extremely inexpensive delivery system other than a very expensive pilot---.

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## Tank131

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For ground strike---mirage 3 / 5. Isn't the reason to acquire all able bodied mirage 3 /5 for that purpose---.
> 
> An upgraded mirage 3/5 is an excellent excellent investment for a smart weapons delivery system---extremely inexpensive delivery system other than a very expensive pilot---.


The pilot is very expensive, and highly at risk for equipment failure given the age of the mirage. Beyond that, the JF-17 carries a larger payload further ans can defend itself with SD-10/PL-15. Id rather have a JH-7A but i wont rehash that here.

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## MastanKhan

Tank131 said:


> The pilot is very expensive, and highly at risk for equipment failure given the age of the mirage. Beyond that, the JF-17 carries a larger payload further ans can defend itself with SD-10/PL-15. Id rather have a JH-7A but i wont rehash that here.



Hi,

That is understood---we are on the same page---but as the Paf has procured more Mirage 3 / 5's---they don't have any other purpose other than the strike role---.

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## Armchair

Remanufactured Mirages. @denel says this is doable and jigs are sitting in SA among other places.

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## Tank131

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is understood---we are on the same page---but as the Paf has procured more Mirage 3 / 5's---they don't have any other purpose other than the strike role---.


Doesn't make it smart or dumb... Its a neglible cost to maintain the status quo. I dont think most will add to the numbers serving but be used to retire older airframes and others will be cannibalized for spares.

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## MastanKhan

Tank131 said:


> Doesn't make it smart or dumb... Its a neglible cost to maintain the status quo. I dont think most will add to the numbers serving but be used to retire older airframes and others will be cannibalized for spares.



Hi,

Well look at it this way---. When you upgrade an older aircraft with a modern EW package---you are basically increasing the potential of its fire power thru accuracy by utilizing smart precision strike weapons---.

But you are right---it is retiring older frames and utilizing not so older frames---.

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## Dazzler

Guarding the skies

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## mshan44



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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For ground strike---mirage 3 / 5. Isn't the reason to acquire all able bodied mirage 3 /5 for that purpose---.
> 
> An upgraded mirage 3/5 is an excellent excellent investment for a smart weapons delivery system---extremely inexpensive delivery system other than a very expensive pilot---.


I think it'd be:


for deep strike/SOW deployment, use the Mirages 
for close air support, use JF-17 Block-1s upgraded with AESA radars and Brimstone and SDB-like weapons
for anti-ship warfare and maritime support, use JF-17 Block-2s & Block-3s 
for air-to-air use JF-17 Block-3s & F-16s

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## nomi007

Dazzler said:


> View attachment 574602


can these tri-rail pylon use for Aim-120?


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## MIRauf

Baigs said:


> So why we will spend money on more weapons.



World oldest profession --> Prostitution
Second oldest ? weapons, Arms Merchants.

As long as there is mankind, there be war and you will need weapons.

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## MastanKhan

Baigs said:


> A very wise solution( to use what we have in our inventory), there is no war, as per expectation, USA and Saudia are in contact with both countries, and both countries govts has achieved their "targets" to fool common people with war slogans and created hype to divert attention from daily economic issues.
> So why we will spend money on more weapons.



Hi,

Weapons are not like eggs that your mom might send you to get for breakfast in the morning that your dad forgot to bring last night---.

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## Flight of falcon

Baigs said:


> A very wise solution( to use what we have in our inventory), there is no war, as per expectation, USA and Saudia are in contact with both countries, and both countries govts has achieved their "targets" to fool common people with war slogans and created hype to divert attention from daily economic issues.
> So why we will spend money on more weapons.




You should be tied to a pole on LOC and left for few hours .

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## Dazzler

nomi007 said:


> can these tri-rail pylon use for Aim-120?



Nope.


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## jupiter2007

USA will soon allow Pakistan to purchase surplus F-16s. Should Pakistan go for it?

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## monitor

jupiter2007 said:


> USA will soon allow Pakistan to purchase surplus F-16s. Should Pakistan go for it?



Of course. It's a proven beast Pakistan must utilise it's opportunities available for getting more F-16 along with upgrade current fleet to next block.

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## mingle

jupiter2007 said:


> USA will soon allow Pakistan to purchase surplus F-16s. Should Pakistan go for it?


We should take as many as possible from Europe and Jorden and even from US then upgrade all them to blk 70 along some new jets from US to counter Rafale 120 to 130 F16s used and new upgrade to blk 70 is best solution

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## jupiter2007

monitor said:


> Of course. It's a proven beast Pakistan must utilise it's opportunities available for getting more F-16 along with upgrade current fleet to next block.



We should see something in few months. I heard it through the grapevine from Pakistani Embassy in DC.

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## mingle

jupiter2007 said:


> We should see something in few months. I heard it through the grapevine from Pakistani Embassy in DC.


Pak should lobby for used F15 or F18 hornets as well for maritime role. Canada buy used CF18 from Australia at dirt price as stop gap. Used F15 upgraded with AESA is best thing will happen to Pak



jupiter2007 said:


> We should see something in few months. I heard it through the grapevine from Pakistani Embassy in DC.


Another thought if it's true used F16 won't suit US economically they will ask new as well keep watching.


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## TsAr

mingle said:


> Pak should lobby for used F15 or F18 hornets as well for maritime role. Canada buy used CF18 from Australia at dirt price as stop gap. Used F15 upgraded with AESA is best thing will happen to Pak
> 
> 
> Another thought if it's true used F16 won't suit US economically they will ask new as well keep watching.


Canada bought used f-18 because they already had F-18 in their fleet so integration was simple for them, same way it makes sense for us to buy more F-16 rather then look here and there.

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## GriffinsRule

mingle said:


> Pak should lobby for used F15 or F18 hornets as well for maritime role. Canada buy used CF18 from Australia at dirt price as stop gap. Used F15 upgraded with AESA is best thing will happen to Pak
> 
> 
> Another thought if it's true used F16 won't suit US economically they will ask new as well keep watching.


But upgrading them to block 70 does help them economically

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## mingle

GriffinsRule said:


> But upgrading them to block 70 does help them economically


Agree it selling new ones is where money is

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## Talon



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## loanranger

Hodor said:


> View attachment 575949


What are they upto this time?


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## khanasifm



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## JPMM

khanasifm said:


>


Look at them preparing 3 F16A to came to Portugal for MLU, from the deal to send 5 F16AM to Romania!

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## denel

jupiter2007 said:


> USA will soon allow Pakistan to purchase surplus F-16s. Should Pakistan go for it?


Yes, buy as many as you can. But are you sure they will allow it?


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## Khafee

nomi007 said:


> can these tri-rail pylon use for Aim-120?


No, but these ones can.

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## khanasifm

Strong wing of f-16 with wingtip load max ~430plus lbs or 160 kg aim-120 
Next outer wing pulling 700 plus lbs next inner 2000 plus kg and inner most up to 3000 plus’s kg

Jf needs more pylons even with lesser load giving more options and combinations


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## Code_Geass

if approved can turkey upgrade any F-16 we have ATM or we might buy second hand.


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## araz

denel said:


> Yes, buy as many as you can. But are you sure they will allow it?


They wont!! Till such time that you buy newer specmens they wont allow you to buy the old ones.
A



Code_Geass said:


> if approved can turkey upgrade any F-16 we have ATM or we might buy second hand.


If I remember rcorrectly we wanted to upgrade our 16s in house .This was not allowed and therefore Turkey was chosen.
A

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## denel

araz said:


> They wont!! Till such time that you buy newer specmens they wont allow you to buy the old ones.
> A
> 
> 
> If I remember rcorrectly we wanted to upgrade our 16s in house .This was not allowed and therefore Turkey was chosen.
> A


Correct - more like buy 1 and get 3 old ones as 1/3 price.

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## mshan44



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## Code_Geass

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 576551


sherdils?


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## mshan44



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## mshan44



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## Windjammer

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Trailer23

Anyone got $8.5 Million stashed somewhere 'cause this F-16 can be yours...
http://www.jetlease.com/listing.cfm?x=604&box=yes

According to its specs, it includes AN/APG-66(V)2 pulse doppler radar, a night vision-compatible cockpit, a data-bus for guided weapons and a joint helmet mounted cueing system.

Its listed maximum speed is Mach 2.05 at 40,000 feet, or roughly 1,570 miles per hour.

For the price tag, i'd be good for spares...

@Khafee
@araz @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @Hodor @Khafee @Knuckles @Windjammer @Ark_Angel @Falcon26 @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @loanranger @mingle @NA71 @TheTallGuy @TOPGUN @war&peace @ziaulislam

Edited: Here is an article about *THEM* (3 of 'em from Jordan).
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29462/here-is-the-lowdown-on-that-f-16-being-sold-in-florida

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## war&peace

Trailer23 said:


> Anyone got $8.5 Million stashed somewhere 'cause this F-16 can be yours...
> http://www.jetlease.com/listing.cfm?x=604&box=yes
> 
> According to its specs, it includes AN/APG-66(V)2 pulse doppler radar, a night vision-compatible cockpit, a data-bus for guided weapons and a joint helmet mounted cueing system.
> 
> Its listed maximum speed is Mach 2.05 at 40,000 feet, or roughly 1,570 miles per hour.
> 
> For the price tag, i'd be good for spares...
> 
> @Khafee
> 
> @araz @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @Hodor @Khafee @Knuckles @Windjammer @Ark_Angel @Falcon26 @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @loanranger @mingle @NA71 @TheTallGuy @TOPGUN @war&peace @ziaulislam
> 
> Edited: Here is an article about *THEM* (3 of 'em from Jordan).



Is it in flying condition?


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## Trailer23

war&peace said:


> Is it in flying condition?


Oh BC...
Sorry bro. Kabhi akal ko patahar par jatay hain. In my case, pori-ki-pori truck ke bajri gir gaee.

I had forgotten to attach the link at the bottom. Check it out again (-courtesy of TheDrive)


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## loanranger

Trailer23 said:


> Anyone got $8.5 Million stashed somewhere 'cause this F-16 can be yours...
> http://www.jetlease.com/listing.cfm?x=604&box=yes
> 
> According to its specs, it includes AN/APG-66(V)2 pulse doppler radar, a night vision-compatible cockpit, a data-bus for guided weapons and a joint helmet mounted cueing system.
> 
> Its listed maximum speed is Mach 2.05 at 40,000 feet, or roughly 1,570 miles per hour.
> 
> For the price tag, i'd be good for spares...
> 
> @Khafee
> @araz @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @Hodor @Khafee @Knuckles @Windjammer @Ark_Angel @Falcon26 @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @loanranger @mingle @NA71 @TheTallGuy @TOPGUN @war&peace @ziaulislam
> 
> Edited: Here is an article about *THEM* (3 of 'em from Jordan).
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29462/here-is-the-lowdown-on-that-f-16-being-sold-in-florida


Wwhat can anyone buy it? With no approvals from the US state dpt and congress and what not. There is this thing called Government of Pakistan they might be able to fund this


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## ACE OF THE AIR

war&peace said:


> Is it in flying condition?


2 aircraft are available. They are ex jordanian f-16's.


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## Trailer23

loanranger said:


> Wwhat can anyone buy it? With no approvals from the US state dpt and congress and what not. There is this thing called Government of Pakistan they might be able to fund this


Aik tou kum-bhakt *hp Printer* nahe kay Saddar say ja-kay utha lain. Aur moceebat owned by a private US Firm.

When you asked can anyone buy it...? The answer is not civilians like us.

Pretty much all the Terms & Conditions are applied in terms of purchase from the US State Dept./Congress.

The only difference is the price tag. The US Govt. has a hefty tag on their own ex-USAF jets.


ACE OF THE AIR said:


> 2 aircraft are available. They are ex jordanian f-16's.


According to TheDRIVE, they have a total of Three.

_"The primary Viper being listed was built in 1980, but it has been enhanced along the MLU roadmap and has modern features found on many front-line Vipers today. This includes being setup for Link16 data-link and Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS), a data-bus for modern guided weapons and other stores, a night-vision compatible cockpit, and so on. The Viper still has its AN/APG-66(V)2 pulse doppler radar, which is a very important feature that we will get to in a moment. It has also received Falcon STAR (Structural Augmentation Roadmap) that will allow it fly to at least 8,000 hours. The jet currently has 6,000 hours on its airframe, so there are many, many years of flying life left in it—I would estimate 10-15 years and that could be potentially be extended further._

_*The jet has an asking price of $8.5M and the other two have a similar starting place for negotiations.* In addition, any potential sale could also include spare parts, training, and simulators. So, if an operator wanted the entire F-16 end-to-end package, it seems like it could be worked into a deal at additional cost."_

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Trailer23 said:


> Aik tou kum-bhakt *hp Printer* nahe kay Saddar say ja-kay utha lain. Aur moceebat owned by a private US Firm.
> 
> When you asked can anyone buy it...? The answer is not civilians like us.
> 
> Pretty much all the Terms & Conditions are applied in terms of purchase from the US State Dept./Congress.
> 
> The only difference is the price tag. The US Govt. has a hefty tag on their own ex-USAF jets.
> 
> According to TheDRIVE, they have a total of Three.
> 
> _"The primary Viper being listed was built in 1980, but it has been enhanced along the MLU roadmap and has modern features found on many front-line Vipers today. This includes being setup for Link16 data-link and Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS), a data-bus for modern guided weapons and other stores, a night-vision compatible cockpit, and so on. The Viper still has its AN/APG-66(V)2 pulse doppler radar, which is a very important feature that we will get to in a moment. It has also received Falcon STAR (Structural Augmentation Roadmap) that will allow it fly to at least 8,000 hours. The jet currently has 6,000 hours on its airframe, so there are many, many years of flying life left in it—I would estimate 10-15 years and that could be potentially be extended further._
> 
> _*The jet has an asking price of $8.5M and the other two have a similar starting place for negotiations.* In addition, any potential sale could also include spare parts, training, and simulators. So, if an operator wanted the entire F-16 end-to-end package, it seems like it could be worked into a deal at additional cost."_


In a way the end to end package would be around USD400-500 mil. PAF procured a squadron of ADF fighters from Jordan at 2.5billion USD. This deal is expensive comparatively.


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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> Anyone got $8.5 Million stashed somewhere 'cause this F-16 can be yours...
> http://www.jetlease.com/listing.cfm?x=604&box=yes
> 
> According to its specs, it includes AN/APG-66(V)2 pulse doppler radar, a night vision-compatible cockpit, a data-bus for guided weapons and a joint helmet mounted cueing system.
> 
> Its listed maximum speed is Mach 2.05 at 40,000 feet, or roughly 1,570 miles per hour.
> 
> For the price tag, i'd be good for spares...
> 
> @Khafee
> @araz @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @Hodor @Khafee @Knuckles @Windjammer @Ark_Angel @Falcon26 @GriffinsRule @Hakikat ve Hikmet @loanranger @mingle @NA71 @TheTallGuy @TOPGUN @war&peace @ziaulislam
> 
> Edited: Here is an article about *THEM* (3 of 'em from Jordan).
> https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29462/here-is-the-lowdown-on-that-f-16-being-sold-in-florida


Top ACES in Canada are trying to buy them.


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## Thorough Pro

As far as I know, Turkey does not produce any upgrade kits for F-16, they come from US and installed by Turkish engineers.



Code_Geass said:


> if approved can turkey upgrade any F-16 we have ATM or we might buy second hand.

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## CHI RULES

Sir can any one shed light on specs of F16 block 70 and it's price tag along with specs of V upgrade along with cost per unit.


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## mshan44

At masroor air base

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## Sine Nomine

*F-16 Block 70/72*

*The F-16 remains the world’s most successful, combat-proven multirole fighter. *
*Approximately 3,000 operational F-16s are in service today in 25 countries.*



The F-16 Block 70/72 is the newest and most advanced F-16 production configuration, combining numerous capability and structural upgrades.


New capabilities based on the advanced F-16V configuration
Structural life more than 50 percent beyond that of previous production F-16 aircraft
*The F-16 can fly and fight to 2070 and beyond.* New production aircraft; structural, and capability upgrades ensure the F-16 can operate to 2070 and beyond.

*Enhanced, Integrated Capabilities*
The F-16 Block 70/72 combines capability upgrades, most notably the advanced Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar with a new avionics architecture, and structural upgrades to extend the structural life of the aircraft by more than 50 percent beyond that of previous production F-16 aircraft. F-16 Block 70 software takes advantage of technologies not available when earlier Block F-16s were developed and produced. Operational capabilities are enhanced through an advanced datalink, targeting pod and weapons; precision GPS navigation and the Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System (Auto GCAS).

 Advanced Weapons 

Lockheed Martin has more than 36 years of weapon integration experience with the F-16. No other organization can match this weapons integration experience. In concert with the U.S. Air Force and multiple F-16 Foreign Military Sales customers, Lockheed Martin has certified more than 3,300 carriage and release configurations for greater that 180 weapon and store types. Our experience as a weapon integrator has enabled the F-16 to be one of the most versatile multirole fighters ever.
 Advanced AESA Radar
Northrop Grumman’s advanced APG-83 AESA radar delivers greater situational awareness, flexibility and quicker all-weather targeting. The APG-83 provides pilots with unprecedented target area detail and digital map displays that can be tailored with slew and zoom features. The APG-83 provides F-16s with 5th Generation fighter radar capabilities by leveraging hardware and software commonality with F-22 and F-35 AESA radars.
 Enhanced Battlespace Awareness
Another key feature of the F-16 Block 70 configuration is the new Center Pedestal Display (CPD), which provides critical tactical imagery to pilots on a high-resolution 6”x 8” screen. The high-resolution display allows pilots to take full advantage of AESA and targeting pod data. The new CPD enables color moving maps, larger and easier to manage air-to-air Situation Displays, zoom functionality with the ability to switch information among displays, and a digital display of Flight Instrument Data. The CPD is also compatible with the Night Vision Imaging System.
 Auto GCAS
The Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System (Auto GCAS) was purpose-built to prevent deadly crashes and has already saved the lives of seven pilots and six F-16s since the system entered service with the U.S. Air Force in late 2014. The Auto GCAS is designed to reduce incidents of what is known as controlled flight into terrain, or CFIT. According to U.S. Air Force statistics, CFIT incidents account for 26 percent of aircraft losses and a staggering 75 percent of all F-16 pilot fatalities.

The F-16 Auto GCAS system is currently being integrated into the U.S. Air Force’s F-16 fleet and the Air Force and Lockheed Martin plan to develop similar systems for the F-22 and F-35. Current plans call for fielding an Auto GCAS on the F-35 by 2019. The F-35 Joint Program Office estimates the Auto GCAS will prevent more than 26 ground collisions during the service of the F-35 fleet.

*Comprehensive Global Sustainment*
As F-16 Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM), Lockheed Martin is uniquely qualified to design, engineer, develop, integrate and sustain a complete F-16 weapons system solution tailored to meet customer requirements. With aircraft based at more than 80 locations worldwide, from the hottest climates to the coldest, Lockheed Martin offers complete sustainment solutions for any customer force size, operational concept and support arrangement.

Lockheed Martin leverages its F-16 experience to increase the commonality and interoperability of F-16 fleets around the world. International F-16 upgrade programs combine the requirements of many customers for long-term cost savings through commonality and interoperability. F-16 avionics upgrades can be integrated quickly, affordably and effectively by leveraging on-going Foreign Military Sales (FMS) investments in F-16 modernization.







*Aircraft Specifications *
*Length* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 49.3 ft / 15.027 m

*Height *. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16.7 ft / 5.090 m 

*Speed *. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,500 mph (Mach 2+) 

*Wingspan* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .31.0 ft / 9.449 m 

*Empty Weight *. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20,300 lb / 9,207 kg 

*Engine Thrust Class* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 29,000 lb / 13,000 kg 

*Maximum TOGW*. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 48,000 lb / 21,772 kg 

*Design Load Factor*. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9g
https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/f-16.html

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## khanasifm

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> In a way the end to end package would be around USD400-500 mil. PAF procured a squadron of ADF fighters from Jordan at 2.5billion USD. This deal is expensive comparatively.



?? 2.5 ? Making up this number ?? What is ur source 

It’s clearly call out in paf history plus mod annual report and ur number is just pure bs 

Please do not make up things up

Thanks

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## mshan44



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## mshan44



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## mshan44

ATTACH]578358[/ATTACH]
View attachment 578359

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## mshan44



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## ziaulislam

If pakistan cant get the f16 even in an afghan deal than they should give up and look for an alternative plan..
In europe typhoons package of used + new would be an option

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## mshan44



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## Haris Ali2140

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 578298


Is it going to be a drag race???


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## GriffinsRule

Pre-MLU bird.

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## Viper27

GriffinsRule said:


> Pre-MLU bird.


No not Pre-MLU..you can clearly see after zooming in that the "bird slicers" have been erased.

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## loanranger

This video broadly describes what Electronic Warfare is something in paticular that interested me was mention of decoys at 3:00. It could have explained indian claim of a f16 if they had actually fired a missile. Wonder if PAF has them in the inventory for f16s. Could come in handy for future engagements against the Rafale.
https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/ale50


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## jedijedi

MUSTAKSHAF said:


> *Aircraft Specifications *
> *Length* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 49.3 ft / 15.027 m
> 
> *Height *. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16.7 ft / 5.090 m
> 
> *Speed *. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,500 mph (Mach 2+)
> 
> *Wingspan* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .31.0 ft / 9.449 m
> 
> *Empty Weight *. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20,300 lb / 9,207 kg
> 
> *Engine Thrust Class* . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 29,000 lb / 13,000 kg
> 
> *Maximum TOGW*. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 48,000 lb / 21,772 kg
> 
> *Design Load Factor*. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9g
> https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/f-16.html



The dimensions seem to have changed slightly from the Wikipedia sourced Block 50/52 dimensions.

Wingspan 31 ft vs 32 ft 8 inches
Height 16.7 ft vs 16 ft
Length 49 ft 3 inches vs 49 ft 5 inches.

Empty weight has increased. I have a question. With passing time, newer composites and manufacturing techniques should have allowed for lighter construction overall but empty weight seems to increase over time for not just the F16 but some other jets too. Does this mean more is being packed in or there and if so, what is it?


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## Sine Nomine

jedijedi said:


> The dimensions seem to have changed slightly from the Wikipedia sourced Block 50/52 dimensions.
> 
> Wingspan 31 ft vs 32 ft 8 inches
> Height 16.7 ft vs 16 ft
> Length 49 ft 3 inches vs 49 ft 5 inches.
> 
> Empty weight has increased. I have a question. With passing time, newer composites and manufacturing techniques should have allowed for lighter construction overall but empty weight seems to increase over time for not just the F16 but some other jets too. Does this mean more is being packed in or there and if so, what is it?


I guess more electronics,especially ESM's.


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## mshan44



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## Stealth

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## mshan44



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## Raider 21

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 582303


Fantastic click. I died at that "ACE of PAF" watermark.

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## polanski

The State department approved $125 million support packages for Pakistani F-16. 
https://www.defensenews.com/global/...itary-sales-the-state-department-okd-in-fy19/


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## loanranger

polanski said:


> The State department approved $125 million support packages for Pakistani F-16.
> https://www.defensenews.com/global/...itary-sales-the-state-department-okd-in-fy19/


You gave me a heart attack. This is old news now....


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## Windjammer



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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 582646



Nothing special, Shahbaz afb was designed by US post 9/11, and HITI is just a contractor. It should not be confused with DHS.

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## loanranger

Not a big deal.


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## hassan1



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## HAIDER

*UTC To Support Engines Of F-15 & F-16 Jets Belonging To Taiwan, Pakistan, S.Korea & 7 Others*





Picture for representation only (image: Pratt & Whitney)
United Technologies Corp has won a $19.8 contract to provide engineering and technical services in support of the engines for the F-15 and F-16 aircraft belonging to Taiwan, South Korea, Pakistan and 7 other countries.

This contract involves foreign military sales to Egypt, Greece, Indonesia, Iraq, Jordan, South Korea, Morocco, Pakistan, Taiwan, and Thailand, the Pentagon announced Thursday.

The contract provides for on-site proficiency training and advice to elevate the technical skill and abilities of personnel responsible for the operation and maintenance of the Pratt and Whitney equipment/systems to the level of self-sufficiency.

Work will include Air National Guard support in Tucson, Arizona; Toledo, Ohio; New Orleans, Louisiana; and Foreign Military Sales support in Egypt, Greece, Indonesia, Iraq, Jordan, Republic of Korea, Morocco, Pakistan, Taiwan, and Thailand, and is expected to be completed by March 15, 2023.

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## khanasifm

Older pw engine were maintained by mrf but not sure newer pw block 52 engines ? what the situation


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## Taha Samad

Few questions:

- Why did PAF not buy AIM-9X HOBS WVR Missile with Block50/52+, MLU deal. Given PAF acquired JHMCS. Can existing AIM-9M/L variants be upgraded to AIM-9X standard?
- What about AIM-120C5, can they be upgraded to D standard or something with similar if not exactly D.

I think the most feasible route for PAF to keep up will be to have V upgrades for its F-16s with 9X & 120D. 

Obviously if JF-17 Block III comes with AESA, HMS, PL-15 & PL-10; it will be a very capable fighter but still JF-17s are light weight fighters so you want F-16s to retain their edge versus any enemy aircraft.


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## khanasifm

2 mki needed against single f-16 ??

Mki was the so called air dominance fighter of iaf and region what happened 

Now it’s this one  




https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...et/iaf-gets-new-muscle/slideshow/71502585.cms

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## Talon



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## GriffinsRule

Hodor said:


> View attachment 583332


Dont understand why editing out serial numbers is a thing still


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## nomi007

F-16 Block 70/72

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## MIRauf

PAF was not cleared for AIM-9X, AMRAAM-120C5 were the second best best offer after the offer of Block-52+.

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## GriffinsRule

Viper27 said:


> No not Pre-MLU..you can clearly see after zooming in that the "bird slicers" have been erased.


Haha you are right, so ridiculous

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## hassan1



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## Talon



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## Imran Khan

Hodor said:


> View attachment 583332


Seems need repaint



MIRauf said:


> PAF was not cleared for AIM-9X, AMRAAM-120C5 were the second best best offer after the offer of Block-52+.


I think in 2006 9x was not ready for sale. Aim9 and aim120 are two total diffrent things . Or you mean to say aim120c7 ?


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## Viper27

Taha Samad said:


> Few questions:
> 
> - Why did PAF not buy AIM-9X HOBS WVR Missile with Block50/52+, MLU deal. Given PAF acquired JHMCS. Can existing AIM-9M/L variants be upgraded to AIM-9X standard?
> - What about AIM-120C5, can they be upgraded to D standard or something with similar if not exactly D.
> 
> I think the most feasible route for PAF to keep up will be to have V upgrades for its F-16s with 9X & 120D.
> 
> Obviously if JF-17 Block III comes with AESA, HMS, PL-15 & PL-10; it will be a very capable fighter but still JF-17s are light weight fighters so you want F-16s to retain their edge versus any enemy aircraft.



At the time, the Aim9X was still a fairly new concept with very limited operational use. There was no known bar on its purchase but PAF may have simply gone for a more established variant.

The block 3 will make up for its lightweight through quantity. A pair of JF-17 Block 3s coming at you armed with at least two PL-15s each capable of kill beyond 100kms will do nicely for PAF requirements.


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## Hadi ali jaffri




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## MIRauf

Imran Khan said:


> Seems need repaint
> 
> 
> I think in 2006 9x was not ready for sale. Aim9 and aim120 are two total diffrent things . Or you mean to say aim120c7 ?



yes they are indeed two different things, thus i wrote AMRAAM 120C5, I guess I should have added aim in front of 120C5 so to be clear.

I cant vouch for PAF being interested in it or not, but I do recall from readings off that time in relation to F-16s and PAF that aim9X was not cleared for PAF. I do recall however same standard reply that we can get it if the need arises /lol


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## Imran Khan

MIRauf said:


> yes they are indeed two different things, thus i wrote AMRAAM 120C5, I guess I should have added aim in front of 120C5 so to be clear.
> 
> I cant vouch for PAF being interested in it or not, but I do recall from readings off that time in relation to F-16s and PAF that aim9X was not cleared for PAF. I do recall however same standard reply that we can get it if the need arises /lol


i think both are totally different 

we buy 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder rather then AIM-9X
we buy 506 AIM-120C5 rather then AIM-120C7

but who know what is future sir


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## SABRE

khanasifm said:


> 2 mki needed against single f-16 ??
> 
> Mki was the so called air dominance fighter of iaf and region what happened
> 
> Now it’s this one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...et/iaf-gets-new-muscle/slideshow/71502585.cms



It was for the time being with its powerful radar and BVR missiles. But once PAF acquired Block 52+ and the older versions got MLU that superiority got significantly diminished. We all knew this would happen with the more advance F-16s. In lay terms Su-30 might be able to see F-16 first but the F-16 equipped with AIM-120 would be first to fire.

In terms of perceived threat IAF's acquisition of Su-30MKI may have taken place keeping not just Pakistan in mind but China. They didn't have long range platform to counter/threaten China with, but even with Su-30MKI they failed to achieve that. All major Chinese cities are in the far East, out of IAF's reach. Whereas possible/potential/probable deployment of long range assets by PLAAF could put Delhi in their range. I think IAF would have known this when they decided to induct Su-30MKI. They needed something tactical like Mirage-2000s but instead got Su-30MKI got shoved into their hands. Thus, the acquisition of Su-30MKI primarily appears to have taken place for political and prestige purpose. India perhaps wanted to show off its air power superiority to the region and the world in the wake of first gulf war where US showed that having a powerful air force could have profound impact on both friends and foes.

It appears that the problem with Su-30 in the 1990's - when Indian decided to acquire them - was that its development had been hampered by the collapse of the Soviet Union. I think it didn't even have Friend-or-Foe identification at the time of Kargil war. Indians probably thought they could fill in the technological holes by incorporating European & Israeli avionics. That doesn't appears to have gone well either. The aircraft spent more time in maintenance then in the air. The Russians seem to have same problem and thus capped Su-30's induction and diverted their attention to Su-35. The Chinese began seeking local solutions for their own Su-30 and ended up reverse engineering the technology and acquired Su-35 also.

I don't know how two Su-30MKIs are going to counter one F-16 though. The chances of two finding one F-16 operating alone are quite slim. Two targeting one would give chance to other PAF assets to target those two distracted Su-30MKIs.

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## WiderMan



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## khanasifm

SABRE said:


> It was for the time being with its powerful radar and BVR missiles. But once PAF acquired Block 52+ and the older versions got MLU that superiority got significantly diminished. We all knew this would happen with the more advance F-16s. In lay terms Su-30 might be able to see F-16 first but the F-16 equipped with AIM-120 would be first to fire.
> 
> In terms of perceived threat IAF's acquisition of Su-30MKI may have taken place keeping not just Pakistan in mind but China. They didn't have long range platform to counter/threaten China with, but even with Su-30MKI they failed to achieve that. All major Chinese cities are in the far East, out of IAF's reach. Whereas possible/potential/probable deployment of long range assets by PLAAF could put Delhi in their range. I think IAF would have known this when they decided to induct Su-30MKI. They needed something tactical like Mirage-2000s but instead got Su-30MKI got shoved into their hands. Thus, the acquisition of Su-30MKI primarily appears to have taken place for political and prestige purpose. India perhaps wanted to show off its air power superiority to the region and the world in the wake of first gulf war where US showed that having a powerful air force could have profound impact on both friends and foes.
> 
> It appears that the problem with Su-30 in the 1990's - when Indian decided to acquire them - was that its development had been hampered by the collapse of the Soviet Union. I think it didn't even have Friend-or-Foe identification at the time of Kargil war. Indians probably thought they could fill in the technological holes by incorporating European & Israeli avionics. That doesn't appears to have gone well either. The aircraft spent more time in maintenance then in the air. The Russians seem to have same problem and thus capped Su-30's induction and diverted their attention to Su-35. The Chinese began seeking local solutions for their own Su-30 and ended up reverse engineering the technology and acquired Su-35 also.
> 
> I don't know how two Su-30MKIs are going to counter one F-16 though. The chances of two finding one F-16 operating alone are quite slim. Two targeting one would give chance to other PAF assets to target those two distracted Su-30MKIs.



It was a rhetorical question my friend Any way thanks for info

Mki or Rafael it’s not single ac performance in a mission it’s combined effect as with awacs and data link u do not need a radar on every fighter 
How do u think mirage5 in paf gets air/radar Pic 

As One Israeli general pilot stated after Bella valley ops give our equipment to Arabs and their to us we will still win

The only weapon of concern is meteor on Rafael but it was not provided to Egypt only mica and not sure about Qatar and India

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## SABRE

khanasifm said:


> *It was a rhetorical question my friend Any way thanks for info*
> 
> Mki or Rafael it’s not single ac performance in a mission it’s combined effect as with awacs and data link u do not need a radar on every fighter
> How do u think mirage5 in paf gets air/radar Pic
> 
> As One Israeli general pilot stated after Bella valley ops give our equipment to Arabs and their to us we will still win
> 
> The only weapon of concern is meteor on Rafael but it was not provided to Egypt only mica and not sure about Qatar and India



I know it was a rhetorical question. Just thought to build on your question. 

Meteor indeed is concerning and the only answer for it we seem to have right now is PL-15, a missile that might still be under trial phase. For some reason the PAF commanders also do not appear to have employed SD-10 against the IAF on 27th Feb. That was the best time to test a Chinese A2A missile.

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## Dazzler

Inter Squadron Armament Competition 2019 (ISAC) of PAF will kick off from next week at Sonmiani Range, Balochistan. A Fire Power Demonstration by all PAF Fighter aircraft will also be held.

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## Talon

Chaff Flare..

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## Dazzler



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## monitor

A PAF F-16






A PAF F-16

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## Talon

92731,the mig killer with new Tail art

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## mshan44



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## khanasifm

Had anyone seen no 19 sqn former Jordanian f-16 with aim-120 

They can carry 6 aim-120 at a time

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## MIRauf

I thought all PAF F-16 could carry 6 AIM-120s ( AMRAAM ), here USAF F-16.

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## Ali_Baba

no need to carry that many AMRAAMs unless required. the AMRAAMs have a limited number of takes off and landings they are allowed to perform before their life expires and they need to be replaced.

In operational combat use, the need is there. For current CAP, etc, there is no need.

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## loanranger

Ali_Baba said:


> no need to carry that many AMRAAMs unless required. the AMRAAMs have a limited number of takes off and landings they are allowed to perform before their life expires and they need to be replaced.
> 
> In operational combat use, the need is there. For current CAP, etc, there is no need.


We bought 500. Wonder how many are left. Kashmir hostilities really tested PAFs resources and spares.

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## khanasifm

MIRauf said:


> View attachment 584108
> I thought all PAF F-16 could carry 6 AIM-120s ( AMRAAM ), here USAF F-16.



Yes they can even Jordanians supplies one older but never seen a pic of one carrying one


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## TsAr

Ali_Baba said:


> no need to carry that many AMRAAMs unless required. the AMRAAMs have a limited number of takes off and landings they are allowed to perform before their life expires and they need to be replaced.
> 
> In operational combat use, the need is there. For current CAP, etc, there is no need.


Missiles do have shelf life and mostly that has to do with there batteries, I doubt they have take off or landings specific limits....


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## Adam_Khan

khanasifm said:


> Had anyone seen no 19 sqn former Jordanian f-16 with aim-120
> 
> They can carry 6 aim-120 at a time


They can't carry AMRAAM'S,they were only supposed to carry AIM.7 sparrows which btw are not in our service.


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## CheckmatePrahar223

SABRE said:


> I know it was a rhetorical question. Just thought to build on your question.
> 
> Meteor indeed is concerning and the only answer for it we seem to have right now is PL-15, a missile that might still be under trial phase. For some reason the PAF commanders also do not appear to have employed SD-10 against the IAF on 27th Feb. That was the best time to test a Chinese A2A missile.



They would go with tried and tested AMRAMMS rather than SD-10 isnit it ? Why would they test something against an adversary.


----------



## WiderMan

Adam_Khan said:


> They can't carry AMRAAM'S,they were only supposed to carry AIM.7 sparrows which btw are not in our service.



I'm not sure where you got that from, they can in fact carry slammers (whether the B or C that's an entirely different matter) though pairing the C-5s with the APG-68V9 makes a lot more sense than the rather elementary APG-66A on the ADFs.

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## Viper27

Adam_Khan said:


> They can't carry AMRAAM'S,they were only supposed to carry AIM.7 sparrows which btw are not in our service.



All ADF F-16s were designed for air defense by US national guards units. This required that all of them are capable of carrying 6 sparrows or AIM-120 AMRAAMs

Jordan's Peace Falcon 1 ADFs that PAF now operates are no exception. By the way, PAF does have sparrows in it's inventory.

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## denel

CheckmatePrahar223 said:


> They would go with tried and tested AMRAMMS rather than SD-10 isnit it ? Why would they test something against an adversary.


I concur with your assessment, lobbing an SD-10 would have been perfect testing scenario in multiple angles.



khanasifm said:


> It was a rhetorical question my friend Any way thanks for info
> 
> Mki or Rafael it’s not single ac performance in a mission it’s combined effect as with awacs and data link u do not need a radar on every fighter
> How do u think mirage5 in paf gets air/radar Pic
> 
> As One Israeli general pilot stated after Bella valley ops give our equipment to Arabs and their to us we will still win
> 
> The only weapon of concern is meteor on Rafael but it was not provided to Egypt only mica and not sure about Qatar and India


As Giora Epstien notes, he rather fly Neshers/M3/5 as they give him real flying experience and oneness with the plane vs f-16s.


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## litman

loanranger said:


> We bought 500. Wonder how many are left. Kashmir hostilities really tested PAFs resources and spares.


498 i guess


----------



## Haris Ali2140

litman said:


> 498 i guess


Don't they test live fire???


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## litman

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Don't they test live fire???


training rounds are used for this purpose i think.


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## Haris Ali2140

litman said:


> training rounds are used for this purpose i think.


But aren't training rounds just simulator?


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## WiderMan

Haris Ali2140 said:


> But aren't training rounds just simulator?



They are. Inert missiles neither have a warhead nor a rocket motor.


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## Haris Ali2140

WiderMan said:


> They are. Inert missiles neither have a warhead nor the rocket motor.


How close are they to reality???


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## WiderMan

Haris Ali2140 said:


> How close are they to reality???



They practically are the real thing, sans the aforementioned stuff.

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## khanasifm

My intention was not to create another discussion point they are capable I am sure as it was stated by paf on the program covering no 19 Sqn 


I was just looking for a pic 

End of story


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## WiderMan

Both dudes rocking the JHMCS

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## Readerdefence

Hi anybody can give information about the shelf life of AAM c/5 with PAF
Thank you

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## HRK

Readerdefence said:


> Hi anybody can give information about the shelf life of AAM c/5 with PAF
> Thank you


Must be *+*600 captive carry hours (plz read about AIM-120*D *here)

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## musaji

Look what our friend GrowlingSidewinder flying


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## Readerdefence

HRK said:


> Must be *+*600 captive carry hours (plz read about AIM-120*D *here)


Hi HRK thanks for your reply & giving me the link if possible roughly how many days/years AIM
Can be used with PAF approximately 
Thank you


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## HRK

Readerdefence said:


> Hi HRK thanks for your reply & giving me the link if possible roughly how many days/years AIM
> Can be used with PAF approximately
> Thank you


It depends on the use by PAF in active flying, therefore it is very difficult to say anything for an outsider about this, but in ready storages conditions it have 45,000 thousand hrs life which mean number of decades

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## Trailer23

Does anyone have any *High Resolution* insignia's of:
1. *Aggressors*
2. *Sherdils*
3. *Falcons*

I already have _Griffins_ & _Arrows_...

I was able to pick up these for Sherdils, but they're low-res (not enough detail).











@Hodor @Windjammer​

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## WiderMan

Peace through C5s

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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer

Waiting to be unleashed.

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## WiderMan

Toting a 500 pound slick

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Waiting to be unleashed.
> 
> View attachment 585225


Sorry but that's a scale model..


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## krash

loanranger said:


> Kashmir hostilities really tested PAFs resources and spares.



Please elaborate.


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## Talon

Vipers of Shahbaz

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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> Vipers of Shahbaz


That infrastructure so close to the parameter wall and over looking into the operations area should be of major concern.

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> That infrastructure so close to the parameter wall and over looking into the operations area should be of major concern.


Yeah but heaven for spotters though.
On a serious note,they can't do much about it, Mianwali has same issue.

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## khanasifm

So looks like out of total 45 mlu f-16, Few say 5 are given to ccs /aggressor sqn ?? 

Rest 40 split between 9,11, 29 sqn ?? Averaging 13 or 14 per sqn ??


No 5 fly all block 52 , totalling 18
No 19 has all ex Jordanian f-16 

??

Total 76 in 5 plus ccs sqn ?


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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> That infrastructure so close to the parameter wall and over looking into the operations area should be of major concern.


Same goes with a lot of other airbases.


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## TsAr

Windjammer said:


> That infrastructure so close to the parameter wall and over looking into the operations area should be of major concern.


Same is the case with Chaklala.


----------



## Talon

khanasifm said:


> So looks like out of total 45 mlu f-16, Few say 5 are given to ccs /aggressor sqn ??
> 
> Rest 40 split between 9,11, 29 sqn ?? Averaging 13 or 14 per sqn ??
> 
> 
> No 5 fly all block 52 , totalling 18
> No 19 has all ex Jordanian f-16
> 
> ??
> 
> Total 76 in 5 plus ccs sqn ?


Aggresors and 29 sqn is the same.


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## WiderMan

Hodor said:


> Aggresors and 29 sqn is the same.



Aren't Aggressors essentially CCS?


----------



## Windjammer



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## khanasifm

Ccs Sqn has no number there is no number xx ccs mirage sqn?? 
What’s mirage f-7 and if-17 ccs sqn number then ?


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## GriffinsRule

khanasifm said:


> Ccs Sqn has no number there is no number xx ccs mirage sqn??
> What’s mirage f-7 and if-17 ccs sqn number then ?


There are four CCS/ACE squadrons, and they all should have numbers. I am sure someone like @Windjammer might be able to tell us the others

No x Sqn 'Dashings' F-7P
No x Sqn 'Skybolts' Mirage 3O (Used to have Mirage 5PA)
No x Sqn 'Fierce Dragons' JF-17
No 29 Sqn 'Aggressors' F-16AM/BM

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## GriffinsRule

Better picture of the Dashings F-7P.

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## khanasifm

GriffinsRule said:


> Better picture of the Dashings F-7P.
> 
> View attachment 585497



Paf official history for last three /four decades just list them as ccs mirage sqn, ccs f-7 sqn and now we heard the news jf-17 sqn


----------



## GriffinsRule

khanasifm said:


> Paf official history for last three /four decades just list them as ccs mirage sqn, ccs f-7 sqn and now we heard the news jf-17 sqn


Yeah they used to be just called the CCS back in the day. Now they have been rebranded ACE and hence I think all aircraft have different squadrons/emblems etc. The old one for CCS is on the Mirage tail pictured above, while now they all have different crests as well.
Heres a picture of the pre-ACE JF-17 with the old school CCS badge.


----------



## Talon

WiderMan said:


> Aren't Aggressors essentially CCS?


Yeap CSS F-16 sqn is known as Aggresors, only thing different is that they have a number assigned to them unlike other CCS sqns.



GriffinsRule said:


> There are four CCS/ACE squadrons, and they all should have numbers. I am sure someone like @Windjammer might be able to tell us the others
> 
> No x Sqn 'Dashings' F-7P
> No x Sqn 'Skybolts' Mirage 3O (Used to have Mirage 5PA)
> No x Sqn 'Fierce Dragons' JF-17
> No 29 Sqn 'Aggressors' F-16AM/BM
> 
> View attachment 585491
> 
> 
> View attachment 585492
> 
> 
> View attachment 585493
> 
> 
> View attachment 585496


Not necessarily,Shooter squadron from Mianwali also doesn't has any number assigned to it.I am not sure but I think other 3 CCS sqns have no number assigned.



Windjammer said:


>


19 Sqn at Masroor during ISAC.

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## Cuirassier

Hodor said:


> Yeap CSS F-16 sqn is known as Aggresors, only thing different is that they have a number assigned to them unlike other CCS sqns.
> 
> 
> Not necessarily,Shooter squadron from Mianwali also doesn't has any number assigned to it.I am not sure but I think other 3 CCS sqns have no number assigned.
> 
> 
> 19 Sqn at Masroor during ISAC.


On the first point, why does KT mention Wg Cdr NAK's unit as No 29 but Sqn Ldr HS's as CCS if they are the same thing?


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## Talon

TF141 said:


> On the first point, why does KT mention Wg Cdr NAK's unit as No 29 but Sqn Ldr HS's as CCS if they are the same thing?


I have no idea why KT would write like this but its the same unit for sure.
Still attaching pictures of both wearing 29 sqn patches because you guys have to question everything...

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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> 19 Sqn at Masroor during ISAC.


Damn, has it kicked off.....not even seen a blip on the twitter or otherwise.


----------



## WiderMan

Party with the lights off

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## Windjammer



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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Damn, has it kicked off.....not even seen a blip on the twitter or otherwise.


Entered into its second week man.I have a few friends participating,got some videos as well.

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## Haris Ali2140

How strict are T&C's of F-16s??? Or are they just to prevent proliferation of US tech to China???
@Windjammer @Hodor @The Eagle


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## The Eagle

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Or are they just to prevent proliferation of US tech to China?



This is already known or disclosed observation. Americans are already here in regard to security & maintenance and PAF never had any issue having no ambition to jeopardize our own security & operations. But, if you mean by possible T&Cs for alleged Block-70 then my friend, no one knows as such or even does so, wouldn't talk about.

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## Haris Ali2140

The Eagle said:


> This is already known or disclosed observation. Americans are already here in regard to security & maintenance and PAF never had any issue having no ambition to jeopardize our own security & operations. But, if you mean by possible T&Cs for alleged Block-70 then my friend, no one knows as such or even does so, wouldn't talk about.


No I am talking about the claims about PAF not allowed to use F-16s against India.


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## The Eagle

Haris Ali2140 said:


> No I am talking about the claims about PAF not allowed to use F-16s against India.



I can't say about others but I have summarized on subject for many times and in-fact many seniors did so. So to conclude an answer about such claims, either you need to ask any sane Indian or read threads in regard to 27th Feb, be it F-16s usage or the so-called kill switch etc.

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## Talon

Haris Ali2140 said:


> No I am talking about the claims about PAF not allowed to use F-16s against India.


No such clause.The only clause in my knowledge is that Blk 52s (only) cannot be used for any action *outside pakistani airspace*, within pakistani airspace they can be used against anyone.No such clause for other blocks and they can be used against anyone and anywhere.
P.s This is not very reliable information but for sure there's no such clause of not using F16s against India.

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## Haris Ali2140

Hodor said:


> No such clause.The only clause in my knowledge is that Blk 52s (only) cannot be used for any action *outside pakistani airspace*, within pakistani airspace they can be used against anyone.No such clause for other blocks and they can be used against anyone and anywhere.
> P.s This is not very reliable information but for sure there's no such clause of not using F16s against India.


But what if in a war they have to cross the border???


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Haris Ali2140 said:


> But what if in a war they have to cross the border???


In 1965 and 1971 the US sanctioned Pakistan, so if the US decides to embargo Pakistan and deny it access to spare parts and additional aircraft in war (100% certain), then the PAF will exercise full discretion.

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## khanasifm

Hodor said:


> No such clause.The only clause in my knowledge is that Blk 52s (only) cannot be used for any action *outside pakistani airspace*, within pakistani airspace they can be used against anyone.No such clause for other blocks and they can be used against anyone and anywhere.
> P.s This is not very reliable information but for sure there's no such clause of not using F16s against India.



Paf chief interview there are no restriction which means paf can use them for any role or operations 

As far as restriction/ embargo / ban/sanctions etc. they can place it with or without any actions based on past history

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## Silicon0000

Hodor said:


> No such clause.The only clause in my knowledge is that Blk 52s (only) cannot be used for any action *outside pakistani airspace*, within pakistani airspace they can be used against anyone.No such clause for other blocks and they can be used against anyone and anywhere.
> P.s This is not very reliable information but for sure there's no such clause of not using F16s against India.



Can someone tell me where PAF can possibly use BVR (AIM120) US supplied to Pakistan when we have only F16 that can use them?


----------



## TOPGUN

Windjammer said:


>



Great picture, I know we have talked about this before but these ADF's vipers able to fire BVR's ?


----------



## SABRE

Hodor said:


> No such clause.The only clause in my knowledge is that Blk 52s (only) cannot be used for any action *outside pakistani airspace*, within pakistani airspace they can be used against anyone.No such clause for other blocks and they can be used against anyone and anywhere.
> P.s This is not very reliable information but for sure there's no such clause of not using F16s against India.



I am not completely certain but I think in the wake of 27th Feb action American officials did say that there is no clause that prevents Pakistan from using F-16s or AMRAAMs against India.


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## khanasifm

TOPGUN said:


> Great picture, I know we have talked about this before but these ADF's vipers able to fire BVR's ?



All paf f-16 are bvr capable and jf-17 as well

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## HRK

TOPGUN said:


> Great picture, I know we have talked about this before but these ADF's vipers able to fire BVR's ?


yaap ....

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## Viper27

TOPGUN said:


> Great picture, I know we have talked about this before but these ADF's vipers able to fire BVR's ?



All ADF Vipers can fire BVRs. In fact they were designed for US air national guard units precisely for defense of US airspace & hence configured for multiple BVR missiles.

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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1187836071217901576

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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1187836071217901576



city of lights during isac.


----------



## WiderMan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1188419231626530816

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## WiderMan

ISAC virtuosi

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## mshan44

__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## Yasser76

WiderMan said:


> ISAC virtuosi
> 
> View attachment 586355



This pic was taken at Konya.


----------



## WiderMan

Yasser76 said:


> This pic was taken at Konya.



I'm well aware of it. The Sqn has been crowned winners of ISAC.


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## Yasser76

WiderMan said:


> I'm well aware of it. The Sqn has been crowned winners of ISAC.


It does not even indicate the squadron in the image, just unsure of the point of posting it....


----------



## WiderMan

Yasser76 said:


> It does not even indicate the squadron in the image, just unsure of the point of posting it....



It so very clearly does. Top Gun boasts that the 11th is PAF's best air-to-air squadron.


----------



## Yasser76

WiderMan said:


> It so very clearly does. Top Gun boasts that the 11th is PAF's best air-to-air squadron.



That is not clear at all. How would anyone deduce that?


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

WiderMan said:


> It so very clearly does. Top Gun boasts that the 11th is PAF's best air-to-air squadron.


5th squadron has Blk 52+s. Lol


----------



## WiderMan

Yasser76 said:


> That is not clear at all. How would anyone deduce that?



I didn't mean to sound like a know-it-all. I figured those familiar with the PAF's recent past would have made that distinction which obviously isn't the case and frankly neither should be because we're all here to learn from one another. For that I apologize.



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> 5th squadron has Blk 52+s. Lol



The MLUs and B52+(s) share common avionics.




PS. I just realized I wrote best air-to-air instead of air-to-ground. Please forgive my Imprudence gents.

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## mdmm

Kindly clearly inform that PAF can use usa made F-16 in attacking against India. All Indian sources are claiming that USA_PAK agreement ,halt Pakistan to use F-16 against India ??
How many F-16 jet fighters planes are in working conditions today ??
Thank you.


----------



## Trailer23

mdmm said:


> How many F-16 jet fighters planes are in working conditions today ??


All of 'em...

Unlike *ahem*...some, we know how to maintain & keep our jets where they belong - In the Air.

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## airomerix

Norwegian F-16s up for grabs. 

https://translate.google.com/transl...asjoner-i-forkjopet-for-a-fa-best-pris/477518

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## The Eagle

mdmm said:


> Kindly clearly inform that PAF can use usa made F-16 in attacking against India. All Indian sources are claiming that USA_PAK agreement ,halt Pakistan to use F-16 against India ??
> How many F-16 jet fighters planes are in working conditions today ??
> Thank you.



The question as such should arise since numerous threads been discussing the same and proven it wrong. So if you want to answer them, shall be told that the time will tell. Next about how many active Fighting Falcons are available for PAF (how innocent a question as such can be), honestly if anyone knows or not; all are flying whenever needed against adversary. Hope that message will be sent as it is.

Regards,

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## Yasser76

WiderMan said:


> I didn't mean to sound like a know-it-all. I figured those familiar with the PAF's recent past would have made that distinction which obviously isn't the case and frankly neither should be because we're all here to learn from one another. For that I apologize.
> 
> 
> 
> The MLUs and B52+(s) share common avionics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS. I just realized I wrote best air-to-air instead of air-to-ground. Please forgive my Imprudence gents.




Did not mean to sound snappy, apologies if I came across that way, we are indeed all here to learn


----------



## The Eagle

airomerix said:


> Norwegian F-16s up for grabs.
> 
> https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.tu.no/artikler/norske-f-16-skal-selges-ma-komme-andre-nasjoner-i-forkjopet-for-a-fa-best-pris/477518



PWs engine, though. So they want to sell 28 at once to single party while most of them have minimum 1200 hrs left on airframe. Indonesia & Romania lastly been successful to purchase Falcons while latter is still searching for more, could be the strong candidate. By the way, the figure 28 on sell reminds of that famous Block-72 thread whereas, it was mentioned about used F-16s are also coming in total package.


----------



## Yasser76

airomerix said:


> Norwegian F-16s up for grabs.
> 
> https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.tu.no/artikler/norske-f-16-skal-selges-ma-komme-andre-nasjoner-i-forkjopet-for-a-fa-best-pris/477518




These are fantastic birds, PAF needs to move heaven and earth to get them. The dry cold weather in Norway will mean these frames will have many hours left


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

mdmm said:


> Kindly clearly inform that PAF can use usa made F-16 in attacking against India. All Indian sources are claiming that USA_PAK agreement ,halt Pakistan to use F-16 against India ??
> How many F-16 jet fighters planes are in working conditions today ??
> Thank you.


Well we are atleast cautioned about it. We didn't clearly said that F 16s brought down both IAF jets. We were reffering to JF17s. But it will be stupid to think that US didnt knew about it. They had complete knowledge even celebrated with us on 27th when Russian jets were downed


----------



## Adam_Khan

The Eagle said:


> PWs engine, though. So they want to sell 28 at once to single party while most of them have minimum 1200 hrs left on airframe. Indonesia & Romania lastly been successful to purchase Falcons while latter is still searching for more, could be the strong candidate. By the way, the figure 28 on sell reminds of that famous Block-72 thread whereas, it was mentioned about used F-16s are also coming in total package.



Far too few hours left on them,might need a SLEP of sorts for them to remain in service with another nation for a decade or so.


----------



## The Eagle

Adam_Khan said:


> Far too few hours left on them,might need a SLEP of sorts for them to remain in service with another nation for a decade or so.



SLEP is there and yes, was referred to if we acquire such low hours jets.


----------



## mdmm

PAF need more JF 17 Thunder-Block3 , as well as more F-16. 
Regarding above news by """airomerix said: ↑--Norwegian F-16s up for grabs.So they want to sell 28 at once to single party""
*Is PAF planning to buy those F-16.??*
Thank you very much, all of you for good information regarding my innocent question""Kindly clearly inform that PAF can use usa made F-16 in attacking against India.""
*We all know that our JF 17 Thunder and F 16 can combat indian Rafale very well.*


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

airomerix said:


> Norwegian F-16s up for grabs.
> 
> https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.tu.no/artikler/norske-f-16-skal-selges-ma-komme-andre-nasjoner-i-forkjopet-for-a-fa-best-pris/477518


We're probably not going to get them, US blocks on 3rd party transfers and all. That said, increasing the PAF Block 15 fleet to 5-6 squadrons with on average 16-18 planes each would be nice.

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## ZedZeeshan

I dont think Pakistan will be interested in Norwegian F16's due to less service life left in them..


----------



## MIRauf

If Approved by US Govt, SLEP or No SLEP, PAF should get them, keep them as reserves if nothing else.

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## Viper27

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We're probably not going to get them, US blocks on 3rd party transfers and all. That said, increasing the PAF Block 15 fleet to 5-6 squadrons with on average 16-18 planes each would be nice.



US may approve if PAF opts for certain upgrades giving US companies some business.

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## The Eagle

Viper27 said:


> US may approve if PAF opts for certain upgrades giving US companies some business.



As for the history goes and under current circumstances; seems like it is more than just profit for US companies when it comes to Pakistan buying F-16s.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ZedZeeshan said:


> I dont think Pakistan will be interested in Norwegian F16's due to less service life left in them..


The PAF could use the oldest airframes for training, CCS, etc, thereby preserving ones with more life and (and possibly more upgrades) for frontline service. 



MIRauf said:


> If Approved by US Govt, SLEP or No SLEP, PAF should get them, keep them as reserves if nothing else.



Agreed, e.g., as spare parts, war reserves, etc.



Viper27 said:


> US may approve if PAF opts for certain upgrades giving US companies some business.


Agreed.


----------



## monitor

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We're probably not going to get them, US blocks on 3rd party transfers and all. That said, increasing the PAF Block 15 fleet to 5-6 squadrons with on average 16-18 planes each would be nice.



Pakistan Have bought Jordanian F-16 which too was a third party transfer after prior approval of US . As Us Pakistan relation seems relatively good I think Pakistan must exploit the opportunity . after SLEEP its life can increase to thousand hour more .

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## WiderMan

You're welcome fellas

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## GriffinsRule

I think its a stop gap buy only but certainly these jets are better than the ADF versions we are flying. But in the end cost will be a major driver. How much are they looking to sell these for. If we can buy all the associated maintenance equipment and gigs as well for in-house overhauls, that would be the real deal. PAF would then be doing with F-16s what its done with Mirage 3/5s for decades!

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## mdmm

monitor said:


> Pakistan Have bought Jordanian F-16 which too was a third party transfer after prior approval of US . As Us Pakistan relation seems relatively good I think Pakistan must exploit the opportunity . after SLEEP its life can increase to thousand hour more .


I think its a stop gap buy only but certainly these jets are better than the ADF versions we are flying. But in the end cost will be a major driver. How much are they looking to sell these for. If we can buy all the associated maintenance equipment and gigs as well for in-house overhauls, that would be the real deal. PAF would then be doing with F-16s what its done with Mirage 3/5s for decades!
Is there any official news from PAF / Pak army/Pak Goverment that they know about it and considering a deal ??

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## araz

mdmm said:


> I think its a stop gap buy only but certainly these jets are better than the ADF versions we are flying. But in the end cost will be a major driver. How much are they looking to sell these for. If we can buy all the associated maintenance equipment and gigs as well for in-house overhauls, that would be the real deal. PAF would then be doing with F-16s what its done with Mirage 3/5s for decades!
> Is there any official news from PAF / Pak army/Pak Goverment that they know about it and considering a deal ??


If we are talking 1200 hrs how are they better than the Jordanian birds all of which had 2k+ hours on the frame? I am just trying to understand where you are coming from so no disrespect meant.
Regards
A

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## WiderMan

araz said:


> If we are talking 1200 hrs how are they better than the Jordanian birds all of which had 2k+ hours on the frame? I am just trying to understand where you are coming from so no disrespect meant.
> Regards
> A



In respect to the avionics perhaps? Norwegian birds are running OFP Tape 5.1 which would be the same as our MLUs, unless by some fluke we got the 6.5?

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## The Eagle

WiderMan said:


> In respect to the avionics perhaps? Norwegian birds are running OFP Tape 5.1 which would be the same as our MLUs, unless by some fluke we got the 6.5?



OFP 6.5 tape means the M6 tape being introduced in 2011? 

Interestingly is the same year that our first MLU was in test flight.


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## GriffinsRule

They are in NATO and would have the most up to date MLU tape. Some of the elements of it would be reverted back unless approved by Congress and the DoD depending on whom they sell them to.


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## The Eagle

GriffinsRule said:


> They are in NATO and would have the most up to date MLU tape. Some of the elements of it would be reverted back unless approved by Congress and the DoD depending on whom they sell them to.



Belgium & Norway did not opt for latest Tape updates after 5.1 as they were already inducting F-35 in replacement of existing F-16s. The report suggest that they were offered but did not interest.


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## TOPGUN

Isn't PAF trying to get more vipers from the US ?


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## Talon



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## MIRauf

ThatOneGuy said:


> This is Quite true considering the main interest of US being easy bucks



Best bang for the buck, no second guessing it.


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## Trailer23

Red Flag 2010​




Images: -courtesy of *Code One* (Lockheed Martin)

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## Windjammer



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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


>



Falcon Talon 2019.


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## Windjammer

truthseeker2010 said:


> Falcon Talon 2019.


No dear, it's Red Flag.

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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> No dear, it's Red Flag.



u sure? these are paf b-52s and usaf cj's from shaw afb, they met this year in shahbaz afb, whereas paf didn't sent its 52s to RF.


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## Windjammer

truthseeker2010 said:


> u sure? these are paf b-52s and usaf cj's from shaw afb, they met this year in shahbaz afb, whereas paf didn't sent its 52s to RF.


PAF Block-52s were very much involved in Red Flag 2016 along With Israeli and UAEAF F-16s.

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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> PAF Block-52s were very much involved in Red Flag 2016 along With Israeli and UAEAF F-16s.



My bad, i thought paf only went in 2010.

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## WiderMan

A couple from ISAC, still waiting on the full vid.

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## khanasifm

WiderMan said:


> A couple from ISAC, still waiting on the full vid.
> View attachment 587781
> View attachment 587782
> View attachment 587783



Not sure but recently triple ejector racks only carry two lgb and internal one is empty also usaf/airforce air national guard has adopted a dual pylon adapter instead of triple 

I think it has to do with two reason 

Less chances of bomb release hitting drop tanks And secondly due to high probability of guided weapon now no need to carry more load , enhanced laser guided bombs 


https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/paveway-ii-plus-laser-guided-bomb-lgb/


https://www.harris.com/sites/default/files/downloads/solutions/l3harris-bru-57-sell-sheet-sas-s.pdf


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## khanasifm



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## khanasifm

Old vs new configuration??

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## mingle

Windjammer said:


>


These are USAF jets along PAF

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## WiderMan

khanasifm said:


> Not sure but recently triple ejector racks only carry two lgb and internal one is empty also usaf/airforce air national guard has adopted a dual pylon adapter instead of triple
> 
> I think it has to do with two reason
> 
> Less chances of bomb release hitting drop tanks And secondly due to high probability of guided weapon now no need to carry more load , enhanced laser guided bombs
> 
> 
> https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/paveway-ii-plus-laser-guided-bomb-lgb/
> 
> 
> https://www.harris.com/sites/default/files/downloads/solutions/l3harris-bru-57-sell-sheet-sas-s.pdf




You have it correct  Clearance issues on the Viper, A-10s carry three just fine.


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## Windjammer

WiderMan said:


> You have it correct  Clearance issues on the Viper, A-10s carry three just fine.


Where as the A-10 indeed carries 3 LGBs on its TER, the same can be done with the F-16, however as the second image shows that the if an LGB is carried on the interior side, after release it can easily come in contact with the drop tank. slipstream or otherwise.

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## Talon



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## khanasifm

WiderMan said:


> You have it correct  Clearance issues on the Viper, A-10s carry three just fine.



Same reason perhaps jf dual rack design was changed

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## Trailer23

So it appears that the (available/used) F-16's is making the rounds...yet again.

This time a Nation has confirmed its intent to sell off its F-16, which are being replaced by the more modern F-35 (JSF/Joint Strike Fight).

That Nation being Norway.



*Norwegian F-16 to be sold - must come other nations in the bargain to get the best price*​
*Invest in selling at least 28 fighters in one tank.*

*



*
*Norwegian F-16 at Bodø flight station is being prepared in connection with an exercise in 2017.*​
*OCT 29 2019*
In two years from now, the latest F-16 aircraft will be phased out by the Air Force.

The 331 Squadron in Bodø will deliver QRA readiness for NATO ("Quick Reaction Alert") with F-16 out of 2021, but after that this job is taken over by Evenes F-35.

It is almost 40 years since Norway delivered the first of 72 ordered F-16 Fighting Falcon. Although this is starting to become a well-used aircraft, they are lovingly cared for and can still be of value.

Now Defense Materials (FMA) is in the process of examining the market and investigating what kind of opportunities exist to sell the fighter planes.

*As early as possible*
Norway has an edge on some F-16 nations when it comes to replacing them with the F-35, such as Denmark, Belgium and the Netherlands. In order for the disposal project to be a success, it is essential to keep this leader jersey:

- It is assumed that the Norwegian market position will weaken as other nations put their F-16 fleets on the ground, so it is necessary to carry out disposal as early as possible, states a letter from the Ministry of Defense (FD) .

Here, the FMA is given the task of disposing of the F-16 system in such a way that the greatest financial benefit is achieved, though of course within the regulations and in line with instructions from the Ministry.





On April 1 this year, the F-16 flew from Ørland for good. Now the planes are gathered in Bodø, while Ørland is a pure F-35 base.​
*Trying to sell 57 aircraft*
Norway's first F-16 landed on Rygge on January 15, 1980. Today, the Air Force has a total of 57 F-16s which have been subject to upgrades continuously since they were delivered.

*24 of the Norwegian aircraft belong to what is known as Block 10*, *while 33 are F-16 Block 15*. Already in the 90s, the 24 Block 10 aircraft received new wings (corresponding to Block 15) and a new horizontal stabilizer (they were factory fitted) with smaller tail surface. Subsequently, new wings, including actuators and front flaps (lef), have also been acquired for the Block 15 aircraft. Certainly not 33 sets, but 24.

According to the FD / FMA, the current plan is mainly to fly 28 F-16 Block 15 out of the year 2021. Remaining machines, mainly Block 10 and some Block 15, are mostly already on the ground and are currently in varying technical state.

*The strategy is to try to sell the 28 machines that are phased out last in one block preferably to one nation*, including spare parts packages. *The FMA refers to conversations they have had with potential customers*, and that it is desirable to be able to offer machines that have at least 1,200 hours of life.





F-16 refills fuel in a shelter at Bodø Airport.​*Distribution of flight hours*
In the mission letter, the Armed Forces is told, among other things, to investigate and recommend possible measures to ensure that as many as possible of the last 28 machines have at least 1,200 hours of flight time left on the hull and elucidate the consequences of this.

The F-16 is basically designed to handle at least 8,000 flight hours. Average flying time on the Norwegian hulls has passed 6,000 hours, Teknisk Ukeblad was informed this spring.

The other machines should also be tried to be sold, even if this entails costs related to repair, completion and the like, if this proves to generate positive revenue stream, the ministry writes.

In addition, it will also be desirable to sell both end-of-life engines and other spare parts. In this connection, the Armed Forces must consider the consequences and costs it will have when critical parts can no longer be picked up from aircraft placed on the ground.





This image is from the roll-out ceremony for the first production copy of F-16 in August 1978, where we see Norway represented together with the rest of the EPAF nations that had ordered aircraft.​
*Still produced*
The first F-16 aircraft was delivered from the General Dynamics plant in Fort Worth, Texas in August 1978. Later, Lockheed Martin took over the business and so far 4,588 copies have been produced.

There will be more: Earlier this year, the new production line opened in Greenville, South Carolina, and construction of the first of 16 F-16 Block 70/72 to Bahrain is underway. 14 similar aircraft will be produced for Slovakia and 8 for Bulgaria. US authorities have also approved the sale of 25 flights to Morocco and 66 flights to Taiwan. *Lockheed Martin is also working hard to sell the latest version of the F-16 to India, but the aircraft will then be called the F-21.* In addition, Greece has decided to upgrade 84 of its aircraft to the latest version.

When it comes to selling used F-16s, for example, Romania has purchased a total of 17 aircraft from Portugal and should still be looking for more. Indonesia has also bought used F-16, from the US.

It goes without saying that the F-16 Block 70 has evolved a lot from the YF-16 prototype that flew for the first time in January 1974. The aircraft has gained considerable weight, but increased weight is offset by 40 percent more thrust from the engines. The latest F-16 has capabilities that propel it towards the five-generation fighter aircraft, with new avionics and weapon capabilities and modern sensors, with the new Northrop Grumman APG-83 aesa radar at its head.




The F-16V Block 70 is in production at the factory that has been relocated to Greenville, South Carolina.​
*From cutting to multi-role*
The aircraft Norway used in the 1980s and 1990s is referred to as the F-16 OCU ("Operational Capability Upgrade"). This upgrade included digital engine control on the engines (F100-220E) and integration of the Kongsberg missile Penguin Mk 3.

The major mid-life update (MLU) was implemented from the late 1990s and helped transform the F-16 from an anti-sea and counter air fighter into a multi-role fighter with the ability to use advanced and precise air-to-ground weapons.

These and later updates to the aircraft's software, called the "Operational Flight Program" (OFP), have helped equip the aircraft with more advanced weapons, sensors, communications equipment and self-protection. For the past 15 years, the F-16 has undergone a number of OFP updates. These are M2, M3, M4, M5, M6, M6.5 and S1.

For example, helmet sight, data link (Link-16), and GPS-guided so-called "smart bombs" (JDAM GBU-31/38) came in M3, while the short-range missile Iris-T came with the M4 update.

For seven months, all operational F-16 aircraft have been in Bodø. On April 1, it ended both for 338 Squadron and for the F-16 operations in Ørland. The idea is that to force the F-16 resources into 331 squadron, the Air Force ensures a robust squadron structure out of the aircraft's lifespan.

It is talk of a short time before 332 Squadron in Ørland becomes operational with the F-35A. The first assignment is likely to be air control, called "Air Policing" in Icelandic airspace on behalf of NATO in March 2020.

Link: https://www.tu.no/artikler/norske-f...asjoner-i-forkjopet-for-a-fa-best-pris/477518

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## denel

Trailer23 said:


> So it appears that the (available/used) F-16's is making the rounds...yet again.
> 
> This time a Nation has confirmed its intent to sell off its F-16, which are being replaced by the more modern F-35 (JSF/Joint Strike Fight).
> 
> That Nation being Norway.
> 
> 
> 
> *Norwegian F-16 to be sold - must come other nations in the bargain to get the best price*​
> *Invest in selling at least 28 fighters in one tank.*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *Norwegian F-16 at Bodø flight station is being prepared in connection with an exercise in 2017.*​
> *OCT 29 2019*
> In two years from now, the latest F-16 aircraft will be phased out by the Air Force.
> 
> The 331 Squadron in Bodø will deliver QRA readiness for NATO ("Quick Reaction Alert") with F-16 out of 2021, but after that this job is taken over by Evenes F-35.
> 
> It is almost 40 years since Norway delivered the first of 72 ordered F-16 Fighting Falcon. Although this is starting to become a well-used aircraft, they are lovingly cared for and can still be of value.
> 
> Now Defense Materials (FMA) is in the process of examining the market and investigating what kind of opportunities exist to sell the fighter planes.
> 
> *As early as possible*
> Norway has an edge on some F-16 nations when it comes to replacing them with the F-35, such as Denmark, Belgium and the Netherlands. In order for the disposal project to be a success, it is essential to keep this leader jersey:
> 
> - It is assumed that the Norwegian market position will weaken as other nations put their F-16 fleets on the ground, so it is necessary to carry out disposal as early as possible, states a letter from the Ministry of Defense (FD) .
> 
> Here, the FMA is given the task of disposing of the F-16 system in such a way that the greatest financial benefit is achieved, though of course within the regulations and in line with instructions from the Ministry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On April 1 this year, the F-16 flew from Ørland for good. Now the planes are gathered in Bodø, while Ørland is a pure F-35 base.​
> *Trying to sell 57 aircraft*
> Norway's first F-16 landed on Rygge on January 15, 1980. Today, the Air Force has a total of 57 F-16s which have been subject to upgrades continuously since they were delivered.
> 
> *24 of the Norwegian aircraft belong to what is known as Block 10*, *while 33 are F-16 Block 15*. Already in the 90s, the 24 Block 10 aircraft received new wings (corresponding to Block 15) and a new horizontal stabilizer (they were factory fitted) with smaller tail surface. Subsequently, new wings, including actuators and front flaps (lef), have also been acquired for the Block 15 aircraft. Certainly not 33 sets, but 24.
> 
> According to the FD / FMA, the current plan is mainly to fly 28 F-16 Block 15 out of the year 2021. Remaining machines, mainly Block 10 and some Block 15, are mostly already on the ground and are currently in varying technical state.
> 
> *The strategy is to try to sell the 28 machines that are phased out last in one block preferably to one nation*, including spare parts packages. *The FMA refers to conversations they have had with potential customers*, and that it is desirable to be able to offer machines that have at least 1,200 hours of life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 refills fuel in a shelter at Bodø Airport.​*Distribution of flight hours*
> In the mission letter, the Armed Forces is told, among other things, to investigate and recommend possible measures to ensure that as many as possible of the last 28 machines have at least 1,200 hours of flight time left on the hull and elucidate the consequences of this.
> 
> The F-16 is basically designed to handle at least 8,000 flight hours. Average flying time on the Norwegian hulls has passed 6,000 hours, Teknisk Ukeblad was informed this spring.
> 
> The other machines should also be tried to be sold, even if this entails costs related to repair, completion and the like, if this proves to generate positive revenue stream, the ministry writes.
> 
> In addition, it will also be desirable to sell both end-of-life engines and other spare parts. In this connection, the Armed Forces must consider the consequences and costs it will have when critical parts can no longer be picked up from aircraft placed on the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This image is from the roll-out ceremony for the first production copy of F-16 in August 1978, where we see Norway represented together with the rest of the EPAF nations that had ordered aircraft.​
> *Still produced*
> The first F-16 aircraft was delivered from the General Dynamics plant in Fort Worth, Texas in August 1978. Later, Lockheed Martin took over the business and so far 4,588 copies have been produced.
> 
> There will be more: Earlier this year, the new production line opened in Greenville, South Carolina, and construction of the first of 16 F-16 Block 70/72 to Bahrain is underway. 14 similar aircraft will be produced for Slovakia and 8 for Bulgaria. US authorities have also approved the sale of 25 flights to Morocco and 66 flights to Taiwan. *Lockheed Martin is also working hard to sell the latest version of the F-16 to India, but the aircraft will then be called the F-21.* In addition, Greece has decided to upgrade 84 of its aircraft to the latest version.
> 
> When it comes to selling used F-16s, for example, Romania has purchased a total of 17 aircraft from Portugal and should still be looking for more. Indonesia has also bought used F-16, from the US.
> 
> It goes without saying that the F-16 Block 70 has evolved a lot from the YF-16 prototype that flew for the first time in January 1974. The aircraft has gained considerable weight, but increased weight is offset by 40 percent more thrust from the engines. The latest F-16 has capabilities that propel it towards the five-generation fighter aircraft, with new avionics and weapon capabilities and modern sensors, with the new Northrop Grumman APG-83 aesa radar at its head.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The F-16V Block 70 is in production at the factory that has been relocated to Greenville, South Carolina.​
> *From cutting to multi-role*
> The aircraft Norway used in the 1980s and 1990s is referred to as the F-16 OCU ("Operational Capability Upgrade"). This upgrade included digital engine control on the engines (F100-220E) and integration of the Kongsberg missile Penguin Mk 3.
> 
> The major mid-life update (MLU) was implemented from the late 1990s and helped transform the F-16 from an anti-sea and counter air fighter into a multi-role fighter with the ability to use advanced and precise air-to-ground weapons.
> 
> These and later updates to the aircraft's software, called the "Operational Flight Program" (OFP), have helped equip the aircraft with more advanced weapons, sensors, communications equipment and self-protection. For the past 15 years, the F-16 has undergone a number of OFP updates. These are M2, M3, M4, M5, M6, M6.5 and S1.
> 
> For example, helmet sight, data link (Link-16), and GPS-guided so-called "smart bombs" (JDAM GBU-31/38) came in M3, while the short-range missile Iris-T came with the M4 update.
> 
> For seven months, all operational F-16 aircraft have been in Bodø. On April 1, it ended both for 338 Squadron and for the F-16 operations in Ørland. The idea is that to force the F-16 resources into 331 squadron, the Air Force ensures a robust squadron structure out of the aircraft's lifespan.
> 
> It is talk of a short time before 332 Squadron in Ørland becomes operational with the F-35A. The first assignment is likely to be air control, called "Air Policing" in Icelandic airspace on behalf of NATO in March 2020.
> 
> Link: https://www.tu.no/artikler/norske-f...asjoner-i-forkjopet-for-a-fa-best-pris/477518


Pak needs to throw in the bid to acquire these.

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## Ali_Baba

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/saabs-new-electronic-attack-jammer-pod-takes-to-the-air/

Would be interesting to see if PAF could buy these new jammers from SAAB and mount them on F16s ????


----------



## Pakistani Fighter

Ali_Baba said:


> https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/saabs-new-electronic-attack-jammer-pod-takes-to-the-air/
> 
> Would be interesting to see if PAF could buy these new jammers from SAAB and mount them on F16s ????


Question is would USA allow it to be?


----------



## Trailer23

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Question is would USA allow it to be?


I get the feeling that we've got quite a few members in Congress that'll side with Pakistan & am pretty sure Trump won't go against the idea either.

Don't forget, aside from the Afghanistan Peace Process, they've asked us to mediate between KSA & Iran too.

Question is if PAF has any interest in those aircrafts and if the Establishment would wanna finance 'em...

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## jupiter2007

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Question is would USA allow it to be?



most likely yes.

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## mingle

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Question is would USA allow it to be?


It requires just NOC from Pompeo that's all Pak should go for them along Jordanians

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## denel

mingle said:


> It requires just NOC from Pompeo that's all Pak should go for them along Jordanians


That is the way to go; MLU them and be done- acquire as many as possible especially these come with entire spares.

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## mingle

denel said:


> That is the way to go; MLU them and be done- acquire as many as possible especially these come with entire spares.


Along with they are dirt cheap

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## ziaulislam

denel said:


> That is the way to go; MLU them and be done- acquire as many as possible especially these come with entire spares.


problem is we cant get that waiver..some how pakistan has failed too get F16 and other military equipment waiver

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## denel

mingle said:


> Along with they are dirt cheap


Only worry is the salt exposure; but then again, a good cleanup will do the trick.

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## ziaulislam

jupiter2007 said:


> most likely yes.


NO, they havent, they blocked the Jordanian f16s as per our own minister


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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> problem is we cant get that waiver..some how pakistan has failed too get F16 and other military equipment waiver


yes, unless edrogan meeting Tit will somehow give the way forward; afghan road map is hung for now.

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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> So it appears that the (available/used) F-16's is making the rounds...yet again.
> 
> This time a Nation has confirmed its intent to sell off its F-16, which are being replaced by the more modern F-35 (JSF/Joint Strike Fight).
> 
> That Nation being Norway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Norwegian F-16 to be sold - must come other nations in the bargain to get the best price*​
> *Invest in selling at least 28 fighters in one tank.*
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *Norwegian F-16 at Bodø flight station is being prepared in connection with an exercise in 2017.*​
> *OCT 29 2019*
> In two years from now, the latest F-16 aircraft will be phased out by the Air Force.
> 
> The 331 Squadron in Bodø will deliver QRA readiness for NATO ("Quick Reaction Alert") with F-16 out of 2021, but after that this job is taken over by Evenes F-35.
> 
> It is almost 40 years since Norway delivered the first of 72 ordered F-16 Fighting Falcon. Although this is starting to become a well-used aircraft, they are lovingly cared for and can still be of value.
> 
> Now Defense Materials (FMA) is in the process of examining the market and investigating what kind of opportunities exist to sell the fighter planes.
> 
> *As early as possible*
> Norway has an edge on some F-16 nations when it comes to replacing them with the F-35, such as Denmark, Belgium and the Netherlands. In order for the disposal project to be a success, it is essential to keep this leader jersey:
> 
> - It is assumed that the Norwegian market position will weaken as other nations put their F-16 fleets on the ground, so it is necessary to carry out disposal as early as possible, states a letter from the Ministry of Defense (FD) .
> 
> Here, the FMA is given the task of disposing of the F-16 system in such a way that the greatest financial benefit is achieved, though of course within the regulations and in line with instructions from the Ministry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On April 1 this year, the F-16 flew from Ørland for good. Now the planes are gathered in Bodø, while Ørland is a pure F-35 base.​
> *Trying to sell 57 aircraft*
> Norway's first F-16 landed on Rygge on January 15, 1980. Today, the Air Force has a total of 57 F-16s which have been subject to upgrades continuously since they were delivered.
> 
> *24 of the Norwegian aircraft belong to what is known as Block 10*, *while 33 are F-16 Block 15*. Already in the 90s, the 24 Block 10 aircraft received new wings (corresponding to Block 15) and a new horizontal stabilizer (they were factory fitted) with smaller tail surface. Subsequently, new wings, including actuators and front flaps (lef), have also been acquired for the Block 15 aircraft. Certainly not 33 sets, but 24.
> 
> According to the FD / FMA, the current plan is mainly to fly 28 F-16 Block 15 out of the year 2021. Remaining machines, mainly Block 10 and some Block 15, are mostly already on the ground and are currently in varying technical state.
> 
> *The strategy is to try to sell the 28 machines that are phased out last in one block preferably to one nation*, including spare parts packages. *The FMA refers to conversations they have had with potential customers*, and that it is desirable to be able to offer machines that have at least 1,200 hours of life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 refills fuel in a shelter at Bodø Airport.​*Distribution of flight hours*
> In the mission letter, the Armed Forces is told, among other things, to investigate and recommend possible measures to ensure that as many as possible of the last 28 machines have at least 1,200 hours of flight time left on the hull and elucidate the consequences of this.
> 
> The F-16 is basically designed to handle at least 8,000 flight hours. Average flying time on the Norwegian hulls has passed 6,000 hours, Teknisk Ukeblad was informed this spring.
> 
> The other machines should also be tried to be sold, even if this entails costs related to repair, completion and the like, if this proves to generate positive revenue stream, the ministry writes.
> 
> In addition, it will also be desirable to sell both end-of-life engines and other spare parts. In this connection, the Armed Forces must consider the consequences and costs it will have when critical parts can no longer be picked up from aircraft placed on the ground.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This image is from the roll-out ceremony for the first production copy of F-16 in August 1978, where we see Norway represented together with the rest of the EPAF nations that had ordered aircraft.​
> *Still produced*
> The first F-16 aircraft was delivered from the General Dynamics plant in Fort Worth, Texas in August 1978. Later, Lockheed Martin took over the business and so far 4,588 copies have been produced.
> 
> There will be more: Earlier this year, the new production line opened in Greenville, South Carolina, and construction of the first of 16 F-16 Block 70/72 to Bahrain is underway. 14 similar aircraft will be produced for Slovakia and 8 for Bulgaria. US authorities have also approved the sale of 25 flights to Morocco and 66 flights to Taiwan. *Lockheed Martin is also working hard to sell the latest version of the F-16 to India, but the aircraft will then be called the F-21.* In addition, Greece has decided to upgrade 84 of its aircraft to the latest version.
> 
> When it comes to selling used F-16s, for example, Romania has purchased a total of 17 aircraft from Portugal and should still be looking for more. Indonesia has also bought used F-16, from the US.
> 
> It goes without saying that the F-16 Block 70 has evolved a lot from the YF-16 prototype that flew for the first time in January 1974. The aircraft has gained considerable weight, but increased weight is offset by 40 percent more thrust from the engines. The latest F-16 has capabilities that propel it towards the five-generation fighter aircraft, with new avionics and weapon capabilities and modern sensors, with the new Northrop Grumman APG-83 aesa radar at its head.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The F-16V Block 70 is in production at the factory that has been relocated to Greenville, South Carolina.​
> *From cutting to multi-role*
> The aircraft Norway used in the 1980s and 1990s is referred to as the F-16 OCU ("Operational Capability Upgrade"). This upgrade included digital engine control on the engines (F100-220E) and integration of the Kongsberg missile Penguin Mk 3.
> 
> The major mid-life update (MLU) was implemented from the late 1990s and helped transform the F-16 from an anti-sea and counter air fighter into a multi-role fighter with the ability to use advanced and precise air-to-ground weapons.
> 
> These and later updates to the aircraft's software, called the "Operational Flight Program" (OFP), have helped equip the aircraft with more advanced weapons, sensors, communications equipment and self-protection. For the past 15 years, the F-16 has undergone a number of OFP updates. These are M2, M3, M4, M5, M6, M6.5 and S1.
> 
> For example, helmet sight, data link (Link-16), and GPS-guided so-called "smart bombs" (JDAM GBU-31/38) came in M3, while the short-range missile Iris-T came with the M4 update.
> 
> For seven months, all operational F-16 aircraft have been in Bodø. On April 1, it ended both for 338 Squadron and for the F-16 operations in Ørland. The idea is that to force the F-16 resources into 331 squadron, the Air Force ensures a robust squadron structure out of the aircraft's lifespan.
> 
> It is talk of a short time before 332 Squadron in Ørland becomes operational with the F-35A. The first assignment is likely to be air control, called "Air Policing" in Icelandic airspace on behalf of NATO in March 2020.
> 
> Link: https://www.tu.no/artikler/norske-f...asjoner-i-forkjopet-for-a-fa-best-pris/477518


there are plenty of used f16s available that will be a great assest for pakistan especailly since many of them will be able to fire the aim120C
problem is Pompeo will not grant waiver..(he even blocked Israel selling f16s to Croatia)
pakistan has reasonable chnace with trump but so far has failed to get the waiver..



denel said:


> yes, unless edrogan meeting Tit will somehow give the way forward; afghan road map is hung for now.


unfortunately, yes, its hung and trump is busy saving his chair so he cant focus on afghan war...its going to be after elections now..

looking at democrat candidates being weak, i am pretty sure trump will pull off a win...noone seems to be here to challenge him


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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> there are plenty of used f16s available that will be a great assest for pakistan especailly since many of them will be able to fire the aim120C
> problem is Pompeo will not grant waiver..(he even blocked Israel selling f16s to Croatia)
> pakistan has reasonable chnace with trump but so far has failed to get the waiver..
> 
> 
> unfortunately, yes, its hung and trump is busy saving his chair so he cant focus on afghan war...its going to be after elections now..
> 
> looking at democrat candidates being weak, i am pretty sure trump will pull off a win...noone seems to be here to challenge him


unless he shoots himself in the foot really bad which he does daily; likely he will be back.


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## ziaulislam

denel said:


> unless he shoots himself in the foot really bad which he does daily; likely he will be back.


the good thing he has no solid competition..

Ms warren(forerunner) is a women, wont beat him, he is going to crush her in debates
Bernie (second) is unfortunately seen as a radical on health policy 
Pete(close second/third) is well, not going to sit well with largely conservative USA society, otherwise, he would have easily beaten trump

he just has to make sure he doesn't shoot his base support and that the economy keeps doing good...USA economy is on the move after a very long time..

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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> the good thing he has no solid competition..
> 
> Ms warren(forerunner) is a women, wont beat him, he is going to crush her in debates
> Bernie (second) is unfortunately seen as a radical on health policy
> Pete(close second/third) is well, not going to sit well with largely conservative USA society, otherwise, he would have easily beaten trump
> 
> he just has to make sure he doesn't shoot his base support and that the economy keeps doing good...USA economy is on the move after a very long time..


Lets see if Bloomberg makes any dent.


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## jupiter2007

ziaulislam said:


> NO, they havent, they blocked the Jordanian f16s as per our own minister




That was before, almost 3 years ago, things are different now.

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## mingle

jupiter2007 said:


> That was before, almost 3 years ago, things are different now.


We need some diplomatic approach all we need NOC that's all these F16s are dirt cheap should get as many as we can.


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## araz

mingle said:


> We need some diplomatic approach all we need NOC that's all these F16s are dirt cheap should get as many as we can.


They may all need upgrading and the last package we got cost us 20 million a pop. Labour was not included so add that as well. Now even with that it is a nice bargain but whereas the US may allow us to buy these planes they wont issue the upgrade pack or create hurdles by raising prices. 
The upgrade pack alone will be roughly 600 million which we are going to struggle to pay.
1200 hours on a platform is not enough for us to make that investment. So do we have a solution?
We may be able to run them as is but what capabilities do they have radar and avionics wise needs to be thought through. I think PAF might sit this one out. For what it is worth there may be no other buyer for it either.
These remain my thoughts so feel free to disagree. PAF will go for MLUed platforms with 2k+life in them and it will chose its planes very carefully.
If you look at the article they want to sell 28 together to one country. Why do members think they have lumped them together? You may find that a lot of them may be beyond upgrading and therefore salvage for spares.
A

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## araz

You may all remember thst even with the Jordanoan 16s we avaided those with less than 2K life on the frame.
A

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## Viper27

US has no issues selling anything to Pakistan as long as we pay from our pocket. The problem with getting used F-16s from outside the US is that we will need Congressional approval. That however, should not be too difficult if we can work out a way to get them upgraded from Lockheed which will mean more business for US companies. I have seen too many negative comments here but we tend to forget that only recently United Technologies was awarded a contract for supporting PAF F-16s. That should address some of our concerns.

Whether PAF has the means to pay for any such purchase is a different story.

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## Haris Ali2140

Viper27 said:


> US has no issues selling anything to Pakistan as long as we pay from our pocket. The problem with getting used F-16s from outside the US is that we will need Congressional approval. That however, should not be too difficult if we can work out a way to get them upgraded from Lockheed which will mean more business for US companies. I have seen too many negative comments here but we tend to forget that only recently United Technologies was awarded a contract for supporting PAF F-16s. That should address some of our concerns.
> 
> Whether PAF has the means to pay for any such purchase is a different story.


If there were any ethics in arms sale the industry wiuld have collapsed. Its all about money.


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## araz

Viper27 said:


> US has no issues selling anything to Pakistan as long as we pay from our pocket. The problem with getting used F-16s from outside the US is that we will need Congressional approval. That however, should not be too difficult if we can work out a way to get them upgraded from Lockheed which will mean more business for US companies. I have seen too many negative comments here but we tend to forget that only recently United Technologies was awarded a contract for supporting PAF F-16s. That should address some of our concerns.
> 
> Whether PAF has the means to pay for any such purchase is a different story.


I think by sitting on approved CSF and other unpaid bills and then additionally asking for money is where the topic of contention is. If accounts can be cleared it would help in crystallizing where we stand. On 2 occasions US has offered us armaments based on part payment from CSF and then backed down. This in its own rights is an indication of their ill intention. PAF has been stung before so wont get anything by upfront payment. Plus our dire finances do not help and US currently is in no mood to help us out.
A

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## Chak Bamu

The only affordable way to get the Norwegian F-16 jets is to get them with spares & not waste money on upgrading them. Use them for flying hours and put them in storage when the useful life goes below 200 or so hours. I am guessing that spares would be more than enough for these 28 units and may contribute towards the rest of the fleet.

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## araz

Chak Bamu said:


> The only affordable way to get the Norwegian F-16 jets is to get them with spares & not waste money on upgrading them. Use them for flying hours and put them in storage when the useful life goes below 200 or so hours. I am guessing that spares would be more than enough for these 28 units and may contribute towards the rest of the fleet.


Do we know whether they are MLUed or not? It might sway PAFs decision on whether to buy them or not. However I think the US in its current mood will not allow us and this is where the problem lies. If the approval was forthcoming we could have gotten th ex Jordanian 16s which are in a much better condition. 
A

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## Windjammer



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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> Do we know whether they are MLUed or not? It might sway PAFs decision on whether to buy them or not. However I think the US in its current mood will not allow us and this is where the problem lies. If the approval was forthcoming we could have gotten th ex Jordanian 16s which are in a much better condition.
> A


All are MLU..issue is simple..USA will not allow arms sale..and pakistan doesnt has any leverage ..pakistan wants stability in afghanistan more than USA will to leave afghanistan..

If things go bad USA can pack up and leave the mess again to pakistan

Pakistan want a negotiated settlement and some sort of govt in afghanistan With international aid otherwise everyone will be back in pakistan...we are talking about millions of refugees, if 4-5b$ of aid stops flowing in afghanistan ...worse if full blown civil war breaks out...

This will not effect USA...USA will simply swallow a one time bitter pill of failure but consequences for pakistan & neighbors are real ...

So we have no bargaining chip ...USA knows that and we know that...

Our role will be after USA leaves with negotiated settlement and wants to keep it that way...

Reality is that's not the mood in USA 

USA thinks an unstable afghanistan isnt an issue

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## denel

araz said:


> Do we know whether they are MLUed or not? It might sway PAFs decision on whether to buy them or not. However I think the US in its current mood will not allow us and this is where the problem lies. If the approval was forthcoming we could have gotten th ex Jordanian 16s which are in a much better condition.
> A


agreed, the mood in US is inwards does not matter which ally it is; even Isreali intel and leadership is concerned about TiT's stability and already considers it not dependable.

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## Viper27

araz said:


> Do we know whether they are MLUed or not? It might sway PAFs decision on whether to buy them or not. However I think the US in its current mood will not allow us and this is where the problem lies. If the approval was forthcoming we could have gotten th ex Jordanian 16s which are in a much better condition.
> A



The current mood in the US is simple: fund your items yourself. Had the US been unwilling, we wouldn't have logistics and engine support for our F-16s either. The latter was approved recently. The problem is whether PAF can arrange the requisite funds. The same issue has kept the AH-1Zs held up. We can get those tomorrow if we make the full payment. Any US subsidies depend on the progress we make in Afghanistan.


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## cloud4000

Viper27 said:


> US has no issues selling anything to Pakistan as long as we pay from our pocket. The problem with getting used F-16s from outside the US is that we will need Congressional approval. That however, should not be too difficult if we can work out a way to get them upgraded from Lockheed which will mean more business for US companies. I have seen too many negative comments here but we tend to forget that only recently United Technologies was awarded a contract for supporting PAF F-16s. That should address some of our concerns.
> 
> Whether PAF has the means to pay for any such purchase is a different story.



Help settle Afghanistan and the doors will open. The money will be released and approval cleared for military sales.


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## Nasr

Trump may want to pull out U.S troops from Afghanistan, just like he wanted to pull out U.S troops from Syria and Iraq. He may be "Commander in Chief" but it makes little difference what he wants. The "Deep State" which is America, is owned and controlled by Zionist-Swines and they want U.S military in Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, Arabia and elsewhere in the world to project dominance in the world until such time when they have no use of American supremacy, just like they did with it's predecessor, the British Empire which was largest empire (territorially) ever in the history of humanity. 

It is evident, that the Zionist-Swines who own and control American Empire, as they did the British Empire, have zero intention of pulling any of the American military presence, anywhere in the world. The only time in the history of America, they ever retreated or pulled out, was in Vietnam and that was after paying a huge price in loss of life, money and military hardware. Since then, America has focused it's energy on destroying countries through clandetine means, before they could ever muster enough strength (unity) or independence (economic) to challenge the Zionist-Swines. 

For Pakistan, the best strategy in Afghanistan is by making every legal effort in restoring peace in that country by becoming economically independent and strong. The best available route to achieve this by simultaneously exterminating corruption, stop borrowing money from IMF/WB and establishing strong economic and trade agreements with Russia & China. And finally, start building a large reserve of Gold and liquidate all US Dollars, British Pounds and EU Euros which stand as Pakistan's currency reserves.

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## Chak Bamu

araz said:


> Do we know whether they are MLUed or not? It might sway PAFs decision on whether to buy them or not. However I think the US in its current mood will not allow us and this is where the problem lies. If the approval was forthcoming we could have gotten th ex Jordanian 16s which are in a much better condition.
> A



"The Royal Norwegian Air Force (Luftforsvaret) was one of the four initial European Participating Air Forces and ordered a total of 74 F-16A/B aircraft. Of these, 56 were updated under the MLU program."
source: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article12.html

So, 18 are non-MLU. It seems probable that the 28 being offered are MLUed.

As far as current mood of US is concerned, let us first bid and see which way it swings these days.

If @Munir were alive, he would likely advise against these in backdrop of his experience with Swedish units (Sea air corrosion issue). Let us see how PAF goes about it.

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## araz

Chak Bamu said:


> "The Royal Norwegian Air Force (Luftforsvaret) was one of the four initial European Participating Air Forces and ordered a total of 74 F-16A/B aircraft. Of these, 56 were updated under the MLU program."
> source: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article12.html
> 
> So, 18 are non-MLU. It seems probable that the 28 being offered are MLUed.
> 
> As far as current mood of US is concerned, let us first bid and see which way it swings these days.
> 
> If @Munir were alive, he would likely advise against these in backdrop of his experience with Swedish units (Sea air corrosion issue). Let us see how PAF goes about it.


I think PAF might sit this one out. The frames life is a major issue as even with the Jordanian 16s we were reluctant to tke on those air frames with less than 2k life in them. However let us see what transpires.
A

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## Yasser76

US just approved 15 surplus F-16s to Jordan, strange considering Jordan is trying to sell some of it's vipers. Could be a way of circumnavigating things and making sure PAF gets Jordan F-16s and Jordan replaces them via US?

https://cha.house.gov/sites/democrats.cha.house.gov/files/Foreign Affairs_8.pdf

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## mingle

Yasser76 said:


> US just approved 15 surplus F-16s to Jordan, strange considering Jordan is trying to sell some of it's vipers. Could be a way of circumnavigating things and making sure PAF gets Jordan F-16s and Jordan replaces them via US?
> 
> https://cha.house.gov/sites/democrats.cha.house.gov/files/Foreign Affairs_8.pdf


I think previous Jordanian F16s are stored nor operational PAF may get 15+15 =30 from Jordan.


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## Keysersoze

mingle said:


> I think previous Jordanian F16s are stored nor operational PAF may get 15+15 =30 from Jordan.


That number is interesting considering the number of MLU packs ordered.

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## MIRauf

MLU Kit numbers (quantity) was based on inventory at that time plus the 28 embargoed F-16s.

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## Viper27

Yasser76 said:


> US just approved 15 surplus F-16s to Jordan, strange considering Jordan is trying to sell some of it's vipers. Could be a way of circumnavigating things and making sure PAF gets Jordan F-16s and Jordan replaces them via US?
> 
> https://cha.house.gov/sites/democrats.cha.house.gov/files/Foreign Affairs_8.pdf



I think the notification means that Jordan is getting various parts for 15 F-16s. Not 15 aircraft.

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## ziaulislam

cloud4000 said:


> Help settle Afghanistan and the doors will open. The money will be released and approval cleared for military sales.


it wont, its all about leverage ..we dont have leverage, we are as desperate for Afghanistan issue to settle as USA is..USA can pack and leave but we cant, if that happens millions of refugees will pour over

as of today there are over 9 billion dollars pending in military expense, on top if it another 1 b spent on walling/fencing of the boarder

USA spent almost 1 trillion in afghan operation
pakistan probably spent 20-25b $ and received around 17b in aid in the approved 33b$ aid..
a big loss financially


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MIRauf said:


> MLU Kit numbers (quantity) was based on inventory at that time plus the 28 embargoed F-16s.


Yep -- it was meant for all 28 ex-PG III/IV F-16s. I don't think we bought more than 14 MLU kits from that deal as the Jordanian F-16s were flown as-is. I imagine the PAF is seeking the F-16V upgrade, but I actually don't think the Jordanian F-16s are going to be included in that; rather, they might keep the Jordanian F-16s as-is for training (not OCU but as a bridge for younger pilots).

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## MIRauf

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep -- it was meant for all 28 ex-PG III/IV F-16s. I don't think we bought more than 14 MLU kits from that deal as the Jordanian F-16s were flown as-is. I imagine the PAF is seeking the F-16V upgrade, but I actually don't think the Jordanian F-16s are going to be included in that; rather, they might keep the Jordanian F-16s as-is for training (not OCU but as a bridge for younger pilots).



But PAF requires 100+ F-16s and it should be obvious from Feb-27 encounter, so it will either need to pickup both new and used USAF, bring the current and used to block-V and new as block-72 or pick up used from other nations. Pak / PAF will need / have to pony up the $ if POTUS doesn't release CSF $.

As Zia posted in other thread of $9 Billion stuck funds, that $ should come from the GCC, mostly KSA as Pak / Afghanistan ended up with their undesirables that got sent for holy jihad and never went home.

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## Viper27

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep -- it was meant for all 28 ex-PG III/IV F-16s. I don't think we bought more than 14 MLU kits from that deal as the Jordanian F-16s were flown as-is. I imagine the PAF is seeking the F-16V upgrade, but I actually don't think the Jordanian F-16s are going to be included in that; rather, they might keep the Jordanian F-16s as-is for training (not OCU but as a bridge for younger pilots).



Given that Jordanian ADFs are built to carry as many as 6 AMRAAMs they may be kept for air to air role and not just for training. Just my speculation..


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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> I think PAF might sit this one out. The frames life is a major issue as even with the Jordanian 16s we were reluctant to tke on those air frames with less than 2k life in them. However let us see what transpires.
> A


2k hours at around 5-8m a piece is an issue?

Especially when u r short on fighters and there is real perspective /option of puttin them through further SLEP 

I think the issue is non approval as mentioned previously by pak def ministry

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## araz

ziaulislam said:


> 2k hours at around 5-8m a piece is an issue?
> 
> Especially when u r short on fighters and there is real perspective /option of puttin them through further SLEP
> 
> I think the issue is non approval as mentioned previously by pak def ministry


Let us wait and see how this transpires. I agree the US approval remains a big issue. By the way the Norwegian planes at an average have 1200 flying hours not 2K.
A

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## khanasifm

Viper27 said:


> Given that Jordanian ADFs are built to carry as many as 6 AMRAAMs they may be kept for air to air role and not just for training. Just my speculation..



Looks like most junior converting to f-16 report from k-8s/f-7 LIFT there and then move on to rest of the f-16s sqn after few hundred hours and years

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## Windjammer



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## Raider 21

khanasifm said:


> Looks like most junior converting to f-16 report from k-8s/f-7 LIFT there and then move on to rest of the f-16s sqn after few hundred hours and years


That's the new trend that has been implemented a few years ago. F-16 is very easy to fly, yet employing it for its full potential takes time to master.

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## Imran Khan

Khafee said:


> Ignore him Bro, move on. You dont need to prove yourself, we know you.


wo block-70 kidher hain bhai ji ?

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## Khafee

Imran Khan said:


> wo block-70 kidher hain bhai ji ?


You havent heard?

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## Imran Khan

Khafee said:


> You havent heard?


no sir please told me

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## Trango Towers

Imran Khan said:


> wo block-70 kidher hain bhai ji ?


Looooooool dont ask that question. U will be abused

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## Windjammer

Imran Khan said:


> wo block-70 kidher hain bhai ji ?


Whatever the truth, it's making the news again.

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## Sinnerman108

Viper27 said:


> Given that Jordanian ADFs are built to carry as many as 6 AMRAAMs they may be kept for air to air role and not just for training. Just my speculation..



Very good.


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## untitled

Windjammer said:


> Whatever the truth, it's making the news again.


@Khafee

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Knuckles said:


> That's the new trend that has been implemented a few years ago. F-16 is very easy to fly, yet employing it for its full potential takes time to master.


It'd be neat if we can pull the A/B fleet to 4-5 fully equipped squadrons, at least.

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## Khafee

member.exe said:


> @Khafee


Thank You for the tag brother, there are a lot of developments, and the situation is well past "*offer*", but no more #Khafee leaks for this forum. 

Best Regards



Windjammer said:


> Whatever the truth, it's making the news again.


Sadqay jaoon aap ki masoomiyat pay!

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## The Eagle

Imran Khan said:


> wo block-70 kidher hain bhai ji ?



Please try to keep discussion intact to related thread at-least. I have moved posts as such.

Regards,

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## Sahab

Viper27 said:


> Given that Jordanian ADFs are built to carry as many as 6 AMRAAMs they may be kept for air to air role and not just for training. Just my speculation..

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## Pakistani Fighter

Khafee said:


> Thank You for the tag brother, there are a lot of developments, and the situation is well past "*offer*", but no more #Khafee leaks for this forum.


Plz tell me where I can find khafee leaks?

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## ali_raza

Windjammer said:


> Whatever the truth, it's making the news again.


i don’t know the news but i know who’s wording is this
very intelligent guy



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Plz tell me where I can find khafee leaks?


from@khafee himself lol

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## Talon

Now and Forever The Fighting Falcon

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## WiderMan

Sahab said:


>





Don't go by the intercept lights, these are MLUs, apparent by the lack of IFF antennas under the chin/intake.


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## GriffinsRule

The only reason Pakistan was able to get the F-16s from Jordan was because the USN did not want to give its 14 F-16A/Bs up that are part of its aggressor squadron, unlike the USAF that did. Thus, of the original 28 embargoed F-16s, PAF got some from the USAF and the rest through Jordan, and Jordan later refilled its rank with more F-16s from Europe.

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## khanasifm

GriffinsRule said:


> The only reason Pakistan was able to get the F-16s from Jordan was because the USN did not want to give its 14 F-16A/Bs up that are part of its aggressor squadron, unlike the USAF that did. Thus, of the original 28 embargoed F-16s, PAF got some from the USAF and the rest through Jordan, and Jordan later refilled its rank with more F-16s from Europe.



14 from usaf and 13 from Jordan so one more to go for 28


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## Ahmet Pasha

More like AMARG is getting more F16 blk 70s.


ali_raza said:


> i don’t know the news but i know who’s wording is this
> very intelligent guy
> 
> 
> from@khafee himself lol

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## mingle

Ahmet Pasha said:


> More like AMARG is getting more F16 blk 70s.


I like background Music


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## Raider 21

GriffinsRule said:


> The only reason Pakistan was able to get the F-16s from Jordan was because the USN did not want to give its 14 F-16A/Bs up that are part of its aggressor squadron, unlike the USAF that did. Thus, of the original 28 embargoed F-16s, PAF got some from the USAF and the rest through Jordan, and Jordan later refilled its rank with more F-16s from Europe.


The Navy and the Marine Corps have used them extensively for their NSAWC programs. A stressed out airframe would not have proved more expensive in the long run. Also they are utilizing it well within their service, hence the USAF options were more feasible.

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## mshan44



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## Windjammer

*One of my contacts, when he was the OC of No 11 ''Arrows'' Squadron with Alan Warnes . He took the author up for a photo shoot .*

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## Ali_Baba

Alan Warnes does get around for sure !!!!


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## ziaulislam

Yasser76 said:


> US just approved 15 surplus F-16s to Jordan, strange considering Jordan is trying to sell some of it's vipers. Could be a way of circumnavigating things and making sure PAF gets Jordan F-16s and Jordan replaces them via US?
> 
> https://cha.house.gov/sites/democrats.cha.house.gov/files/Foreign Affairs_8.pdf


Its possible but one would assume first the f16 in jordan would be released
Or this could just be spares for jordianian f16s


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## Raider 21

Ali_Baba said:


> Alan Warnes does get around for sure !!!!


PAF is kind to him.



Windjammer said:


> *One of my contacts, when he was the OC of No 11 ''Arrows'' Squadron with Alan Warnes . He took the author up for a photo shoot .*
> 
> View attachment 590098


This must have been a while ago. Great person.


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## Thorough Pro

message me please... or rather email



Khafee said:


> Thank You for the tag brother, there are a lot of developments, and the situation is well past "*offer*", but no more #Khafee leaks for this forum.
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> 
> Sadqay jaoon aap ki masoomiyat pay!

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## Trailer23

Hey sexy mama...​

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## Trailer23



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## RAMPAGE

I hope the 70/72 deal, for both new aircrafts and upgrades for the existing fleet, materialises soon now. That should keep IAF from any misadventures for the next decade and beyond. The next generation fighter should be ready by then.

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## Windjammer

Possibly CGI but certainly an interesting array of weaponry.

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## Stealth

Windjammer said:


> No dear, it's Red Flag.



Nellis Airbase USA


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## GriffinsRule

Windjammer said:


> Possibly CGI but certainly an interesting array of weaponry.
> 
> View attachment 591253


Plastic model. Engine is GE

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## Talon

Vipers of Shahbaz..

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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> Vipers of Shahbaz..
> View attachment 591392
> View attachment 591393
> View attachment 591394
> 
> View attachment 591395


Is No 11 still stationed there. ??


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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Is No 11 still stationed there. ??


Were they supposed to move out?


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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> Were they supposed to move out?


Well their home base is Sargodha as we know it, i understand they stopped over in Shahbaz after returning from an International Exercise.


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## Pakistani Fighter

RAMPAGE said:


> I hope the 70/72 deal, for both new aircrafts and upgrades for the existing fleet, materialises soon now. That should keep IAF from any misadventures for the next decade and beyond. The next generation fighter should be ready by then.


I have heard that PAF is looking for a jet. 5th gen is not an an option now. They wont go for F 16s. Maybe Gripens, Mig 35 or J 10Cs



Hodor said:


> Vipers of Shahbaz..
> View attachment 591392
> View attachment 591393
> View attachment 591394
> 
> View attachment 591395


Vipers of Shahbaz are Block 52+s. Period!


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## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> Vipers of Shahbaz..
> View attachment 591392
> View attachment 591393
> View attachment 591394
> 
> View attachment 591395


Wish they come out with a better paint job for the tail. Fantastic shots!!

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## SABRE

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I have heard that PAF is looking for a jet. *5th gen is not an an option now*. *They wont go for F 16s*. Maybe Gripens, Mig 35 or J 10Cs
> 
> 
> Vipers of Shahbaz are Block 52+s. Period!



Sources?


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## Pakistani Fighter

SABRE said:


> Sources?


A PAF Pilot. He said PAF wants one. That jet probably is gonna be based in Bholari

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Well their home base is Sargodha as we know it, i understand they stopped over in Shahbaz after returning from an International Exercise.


Sgd is too busy to house more jets...for now.



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I have heard that PAF is looking for a jet. 5th gen is not an an option now. They wont go for F 16s. Maybe Gripens, Mig 35 or J 10Cs
> 
> 
> Vipers of Shahbaz are Block 52+s. Period!


As long as Arrows are at Shahbaz I will call them same.Period!

P.s Paf acquiring a new jet is a Chuss news.

Edit:
@Syed Hammad Ahmed FYI I confirmed, Arrows are at Shahbaz permanently. @Windjammer

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## Pakistani Fighter

Hodor said:


> P.s Paf acquiring a new jet is a Chuss news.


They are just Thinking of it.



Hodor said:


> As long as Arrows are at Shahbaz I will call them same.Period!


Block 52s are the most advanced. Thats why I said they are the vipers of Shahbaz as they are based there too


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## SABRE

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> A PAF Pilot. He said PAF wants one. That jet probably is gonna be based in Bholari



He said PAF does not want 5th Gen AC, & that it also does not want more F-16s?

This is not to say that you are wrong but I am somewhat confused by what you said. Usually (or almost always) no one apart from the arms acquisition bureaucracy that exists within each branch of the military and the top civilian political and bureaucratic individuals involved in the defence decision-making process has any information on arms acquisition. At best, the trial and evaluation officers can tell you the options being evaluated but never the choice that will be made. But it is more probable that they wouldn't even tell you what is being evaluated as in many instances it could be tagged 'classified.' I have been around some highly placed senior PA, PAF, and PN officials and they weren't able to answer questions regarding acquisitions. This is similar to the rumours that I used to come across that 'some military or an intelligence officer told me Pakistan is rolling back its nuclear programme.' People need to consider not all military personnel know everything. On bureaucratic level, the military and defence ministry operates on strictly need to know basis.

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## WiderMan

Windjammer said:


> Well their home base is Sargodha as we know it, i understand they stopped over in Shahbaz after returning from an International Exercise.




The Sqns rotate between the three bases with frequent visits to Minhas, or so I've heard anyway


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## Pakistani Fighter

SABRE said:


> He said PAF does not want 5th Gen AC, & that it also does not want more F-16s?
> 
> This is not to say that you are wrong but I am somewhat confused by what you said. Usually (or almost always) no one apart from the arms acquisition bureaucracy that exists within each branch of the military and the top civilian political and bureaucratic individuals involved in the defence decision-making process has any information on arms acquisition. At best, the trial and evaluation officers can tell you the options being evaluated but never the choice that will be made. But it is more probable that they wouldn't even tell you what is being evaluated as in many instances it could be tagged 'classified.' I have been around some highly placed senior PA, PAF, and PN officials and they weren't able to answer questions regarding acquisitions. This is similar to the rumours that I used to come across that 'some military or an intelligence officer told me Pakistan is rolling back its nuclear programme.' People need to consider not all military personnel know everything. On bureaucratic level, the military and defence ministry operates on strictly need to know basis.


Dont want bcz they may not have funds/need now


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## SABRE

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Dont want bcz they may not have funds/need now



Not having funds is different from not wanting something, and needs just don't go away, certainly not the futuristic needs. Not wanting 5th Gen aircraft means shutting down the shop in the long run, and I am confident that PAF would jump on to more F-16s if the opportunity is provided. Based on the past and recent-past lengthy discussions on J-10C, Gripen and MiG-35 by some of the reliable members it is difficult to see them in PAF. But I guess we'll have to wait and see.

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## araz

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I have heard that PAF is looking for a jet. 5th gen is not an an option now. They wont go for F 16s. Maybe Gripens, Mig 35 or J 10Cs
> 
> 
> Vipers of Shahbaz are Block 52+s. Period!


Chalo. Another leak by this or that! Yaar nothing is coming in the next 2-3 years except possibly older frames of 16s. So I will believe it when I see it.
J10 is a possibility though only if the block 3s do not perform upto expectations.
A

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## PakFactor

araz said:


> Chalo. Another leak by this or that! Yaar nothing is coming in the next 2-3 years except possibly older frames of 16s. So I will believe it when I see it.
> J10 is a possibility though only if the block 3s do not perform upto expectations.
> A



Question what news we have from PDF insiders regarding Block 3, considering in Operation Swift Retort no JFT was used - if they didn’t have confidence in this platform what expectations they’ll have for Block 3 another member states in another thread our Block 1 wouldn’t stand up to Tejas (even though not production).


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## Windjammer

PakFactor said:


> Question what news we have from PDF insiders regarding Block 3, considering in Operation Swift Retort no JFT was used - if they didn’t have confidence in this platform what expectations they’ll have for Block 3 another member states in another thread our Block 1 wouldn’t stand up to Tejas (even though not production).


We didn't even get to use our Block-52s.....what does that tell us......however, the JF-17s were very much part of the operation.

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## PakFactor

Windjammer said:


> We didn't even get to use our Block-52s.....what does that tell us......however, the JF-17s were very much part of the operation.



Thanks for clearing that up for me.


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## airomerix

Arrows moved out of Sargodha years ago.

Also unlike Army units, PAF squadrons do not rotate on a regular basis since the assets are limited and operational requirements dictate all the moves.

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## Flight of falcon

Good observation.... so why didn’t we use Block 52s???


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Flight of falcon said:


> Good observation.... so why didn’t we use Block 52s???


The CFTs offer more range/payload, I'm guessing to reinforce the south, especially maritime (e.g., provide top-cover to the AShM-equipped JF-17 and Mirages).


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## khanasifm

airomerix said:


> Arrows moved out of Sargodha years ago.
> 
> Also unlike Army units, PAF squadrons do not rotate on a regular basis since the assets are limited and operational requirements dictate all the moves.



? Not sure what it means ? What did I miss?


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## airomerix

khanasifm said:


> ? Not sure what it means ? What did I miss?



Some of the guys are unsure about Arrow's home base. They still think they are seen at Shahbaz due to pit stops on way to Mushaf or due to regular temporary detachments.

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## Windjammer

And the same guy knows that even No 5 moved out of Shahbaz, temporarily earlier this year.


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## krash

PakFactor said:


> Thanks for clearing that up for me.



IRC, apart from being a part of the strike package, the Thunders were also a part of the CAPs during the hostilities. There is an interview of one of those JF-17 drivers recalling how when they landed back their ground crews counted their missiles in hopes that the bird had danced with the Indians. I couldn't find the interview right now but I'll look again.

Edit:

Correction: Not quite sure that it was Operation Swift Retort itself or one of the missions preceding it. Nonetheless,

*“One mission took place in the days following the Indian Air Force’s attempted strikes in Pakistan border region- at five in the night I took off in rain and low cloud with TS in the vicinity. Clouds were from 4,000 till 33,000 feet. Got out of clouds and controller reported two Su-30s ‘across the fence’. I targeted them at ranges beyond 50-60 NM but didn’t get authorisation to engage from controller, continued to grind above 32,000 flowing hot and cold 20-30NM from fence targeting the Su-30s. The IAF scrambled a total of six more Su-30s and finally I had eight Su-30s in front. Would turn hot and target each one in sequence from north to south (just spike them seeing whether they get lured in or not). After hitting texaco (air refuelling) returned to based amid rain and wet runway.. the first thing ground crew did was count the missiles.. gave a disappointed look once all were intact. the same profile continued for a couple of month but that first mission was an unbelievable experience.”*

https://hushkit.net/2019/07/19/flyi...erview-with-pakistan-air-force-fighter-pilot/




Flight of falcon said:


> Good observation.... so why didn’t we use Block 52s???



Because they weren't needed.

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## Haris Ali2140

krash said:


> Apart from being a part of the strike package, the Thunders were also a part of the CAP. There is an interview of one of those JF-17 drivers recalling how when they landed back their ground crews counted their missiles in hopes that the bird had danced with the Indians. I couldn't find the interview right now but I'll look again.
> 
> 
> 
> Because they weren't needed.


Its on hushkit.

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## krash

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Its on hushkit.



Thank you very much!

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## syed_yusuf

krash said:


> IRC, apart from being a part of the strike package, the Thunders were also a part of the CAPs during the hostilities. There is an interview of one of those JF-17 drivers recalling how when they landed back their ground crews counted their missiles in hopes that the bird had danced with the Indians. I couldn't find the interview right now but I'll look again.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Correction: Not quite sure that it was Operation Swift Retort itself or one of the missions preceding it. Nonetheless,
> 
> *“One mission took place in the days following the Indian Air Force’s attempted strikes in Pakistan border region- at five in the night I took off in rain and low cloud with TS in the vicinity. Clouds were from 4,000 till 33,000 feet. Got out of clouds and controller reported two Su-30s ‘across the fence’. I targeted them at ranges beyond 50-60 NM but didn’t get authorisation to engage from controller, continued to grind above 32,000 flowing hot and cold 20-30NM from fence targeting the Su-30s. The IAF scrambled a total of six more Su-30s and finally I had eight Su-30s in front. Would turn hot and target each one in sequence from north to south (just spike them seeing whether they get lured in or not). After hitting texaco (air refuelling) returned to based amid rain and wet runway.. the first thing ground crew did was count the missiles.. gave a disappointed look once all were intact. the same profile continued for a couple of month but that first mission was an unbelievable experience.”*
> 
> https://hushkit.net/2019/07/19/flyi...erview-with-pakistan-air-force-fighter-pilot/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because they weren't needed.



since he got air refueling, it must by mirage or JFT. but since he engage 50-60NM tracking it must be JFT. Did SU-30 ever manged to lock him too in return after all they were 8 v/s assuming 2 JFT.


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## krash

syed_yusuf said:


> since he got air refueling, it must by mirage or JFT. but since he engage 50-60NM tracking it must be JFT. Did SU-30 ever manged to lock him too in return after all they were 8 v/s assuming 2 JFT.



He's a JF-17 driver alright, the article's title is "Flying & Fighting in the JF-17 Thunder: Interview with Pakistan Air Force fighter pilot". He didn't mention anything about being locked, probably was.


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## khanasifm

airomerix said:


> Some of the guys are unsure about Arrow's home base. They still think they are seen at Shahbaz due to pit stops on way to Mushaf or due to regular temporary detachments.



Per paf history book 2014

1 Shahab can only house 2 sqn 
2 no 5 and no 11 are already part of new wing I think 39 
3 new base in sindh is also putting up infrastructure for additional sqn 

As of now 9 is the only fighter sqn besides support heli and ew in the 38 wing 

Ccs is not part of wing but separate so doubt 9 has moved


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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> And the same guy knows that even No 5 moved out of Shahbaz, temporarily earlier this year.



So what all sqn move around during the year but has permanent location plus war time location which changes all the time what’s so big about it 

The only thing is new jf sqn should be in works and I am not sure which one and where 2019 early 2020


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## Windjammer

khanasifm said:


> So what all sqn move around during the year but has permanent location plus war time location which changes all the time what’s so big about it
> 
> The only thing is new jf sqn should be in works and I am not sure which one and where 2019 early 2020


The big thing is the difference between deployment and vacting.


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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> The big thing is the difference between deployment and vacting.



If true than the wing is made up of just support elements ew sqn, heli sqn ??? Unless some other sqn moved in ? Or counting ccs part of wing


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## khanasifm

__ https://www.facebook.com/


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## WiderMan

Recovering with that sweet CAP fit.

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## air marshal

http://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16BM-Fighting-Falcon/2379

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## khanasifm



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## khanasifm



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## loanranger

khanasifm said:


>


I feel smart now because I understood everything. That's how good of a teacher this guy was. I have seen a couple of his other videos aswell. He is a very capable guy. By the way that f16 tumbling in the air was able to recover and this guy was in it


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## messiach

Trailer23 said:


> View attachment 591168
> View attachment 591169
> View attachment 591170


W can now develop 5 x FC1 in price of one latest tarmac toy. The amount of LFJDCC FCS input is 5X less for FC1.

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## ziaulislam

messiach said:


> W can now develop 5 x FC1 in price of one latest tarmac toy. The amount of LFJDCC FCS input is 5X less for FC1.


and thus new f16 or any fourth gen western aircraft will never be brought by PAF ..as they arent worth 5 jf-17 with long term grantee access to spares and indigenous weapons..so unless this tarmac costs atleast no more than twice PAF wont go for it

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## GriffinsRule

This is old news, circa 2012, but in case it wasnt posted here.

https://www.militaryaerospace.com/t...tibility-testing-for-use-on-f16s-for-pakistan

*AIDEWS completes EM compatibility testing for use on F-16s for Pakistan*
CLIFTON, N.J., 21 Nov. 2012. The ITT Exelis (NYSE:XLS) Electronic Systems division, headquartered in Clifton, N.J., have completed electromagnetic compatibility testing of its advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare suite (AIDEWS) at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif.

Skyler Frink
Nov 21st, 2012

CLIFTON, N.J., 21 Nov. 2012. The ITT Exelis (NYSE:XLS) Electronic Systems division, headquartered in Clifton, N.J., have completed electromagnetic compatibility testing of its advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare suite (AIDEWS) at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif.

Six weeks of testing was performed on multiple radio frequency systems operating simultaneously in an F-16 carrying the AIDEWS pod. The team measured pod antenna patterns on the F-16, as well as system interoperability between the AIDEWS jamming pod, fire control radar and ALR-69 radar warning receiver.

The testing, part of the qualification process for the Pakistan F-16 upgrade program, was conducted to ensure AIDEWS will work with other systems integrated into the aircraft, and verify that the multiple systems will not interfere with one another. This chamber-based testing also helps to reduce the amount of flight testing needed to verify the electronic warfare system's performance, reducing the cost and time needed to qualify a system.

AIDEWS provides fighter aircraft with integrated radar warning and RF countermeasures and advanced stand-alone radar warning. The system uses a modular approach in an externally mounted pod, either for EW System upgrades or to add electronic warfare capability to an array of fighter aircraft. AIDEWS is built upon the ALQ-211 family of electronic warfare systems now in use to support U.S. and allied defense customers on many aircraft. The system is currently in full production with more than 160 systems under contract for six nations as part of the F-16 Foreign Military Sales program.


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## Raider 21

loanranger said:


> I feel smart now because I understood everything. That's how good of a teacher this guy was. I have seen a couple of his other videos aswell. He is a very capable guy. By the way that f16 tumbling in the air was able to recover and this guy was in it


He is a remarkable man and a thorough professional. Astronaut candidate and a very diverse background. Takes a lot just to have a foreigner flying USAF F-16s in flight test squadrons.

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## Sahab

WiderMan said:


> Don't go by the intercept lights, these are MLUs, apparent by the lack of IFF antennas under the chin/intake.


I do not understand what you mean 

I think iff antenna are in the f 16 nose

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## Imran Khan

Sahab said:


> I do not understand what you mean
> 
> I think iff antenna are in the f 16 nose









1. IFF / AN/APX-113 IFF antenna
2. RHAWS ( Radar Homing And Warning Sensor ) 
3. Lightning Diverter Strip,
4. Pitot tube is used to calculate the speed of the aircraft.
5. TACAN ( Tactical Air Navigation ) antenna
6. AOA ( Angle of Attack ) 
7. Air data probe.
8. ALQ-178 ECM 
9. UHF antenna

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## krash

Sahab said:


> I do not understand what you mean
> 
> I think iff antenna are in the f 16 nose





Imran Khan said:


> 1. IFF / AN/APX-113 IFF antenna
> 2. RHAWS ( Radar Homing And Warning Sensor )
> 3. Lightning Diverter Strip,
> 4. Pitot tube is used to calculate the speed of the aircraft.
> 5. TACAN ( Tactical Air Navigation ) antenna
> 6. AOA ( Angle of Attack )
> 7. Air data probe.
> 8. ALQ-178 ECM
> 9. UHF antenna



The ADF birds had IFF antennae under the air-intake as well. These were removed after MLU. The picture of the Jordanian ADF F-16s posted by @Sahab does not show this extra array of antennae under the air intake which means that those are MLUed birds. The ADF Vipers we got from Jordan are not MLUed and still have these antenna.

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## WiderMan

GriffinsRule said:


> This is old news, circa 2012, but in case it wasnt posted here.
> 
> https://www.militaryaerospace.com/t...tibility-testing-for-use-on-f16s-for-pakistan
> 
> *AIDEWS completes EM compatibility testing for use on F-16s for Pakistan*
> CLIFTON, N.J., 21 Nov. 2012. The ITT Exelis (NYSE:XLS) Electronic Systems division, headquartered in Clifton, N.J., have completed electromagnetic compatibility testing of its advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare suite (AIDEWS) at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif.
> 
> Skyler Frink
> Nov 21st, 2012
> 
> CLIFTON, N.J., 21 Nov. 2012. The ITT Exelis (NYSE:XLS) Electronic Systems division, headquartered in Clifton, N.J., have completed electromagnetic compatibility testing of its advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare suite (AIDEWS) at Edwards Air Force Base, Calif.
> 
> Six weeks of testing was performed on multiple radio frequency systems operating simultaneously in an F-16 carrying the AIDEWS pod. The team measured pod antenna patterns on the F-16, as well as system interoperability between the AIDEWS jamming pod, fire control radar and ALR-69 radar warning receiver.
> 
> The testing, part of the qualification process for the Pakistan F-16 upgrade program, was conducted to ensure AIDEWS will work with other systems integrated into the aircraft, and verify that the multiple systems will not interfere with one another. This chamber-based testing also helps to reduce the amount of flight testing needed to verify the electronic warfare system's performance, reducing the cost and time needed to qualify a system.
> 
> AIDEWS provides fighter aircraft with integrated radar warning and RF countermeasures and advanced stand-alone radar warning. The system uses a modular approach in an externally mounted pod, either for EW System upgrades or to add electronic warfare capability to an array of fighter aircraft. AIDEWS is built upon the ALQ-211 family of electronic warfare systems now in use to support U.S. and allied defense customers on many aircraft. The system is currently in full production with more than 160 systems under contract for six nations as part of the F-16 Foreign Military Sales program.




Sans DRFM. Grinds my gears to this day.


----------



## messiach

Not in 2020 and beyond.


ziaulislam said:


> and thus new f16 or any fourth gen western aircraft will never be brought by PAF ..as they arent worth 5 jf-17 with long term grantee access to spares and indigenous weapons..so unless this tarmac costs atleast no more than twice PAF wont go for it

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## WiderMan

MKI briefing sticks



OC Griffins taking the COAS for a ride along

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## Windjammer

WiderMan said:


> MKI briefing sticks
> View attachment 592501



He's also the current Sher Afgan Trophy winner.

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## Windjammer



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## loanranger

WiderMan said:


> MKI briefing sticks


Well Spotted. They probably discuss tactics here. Just reaffirms how aware PAF is to the Mki challenge.

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## time pass



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## Raider 21

loanranger said:


> Well Spotted. They probably discuss tactics here. Just reaffirms how aware PAF is to the Mki challenge.


On a side note, those MKI sticks have been there for years. They've been looking at that for almost 15 years or more.

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## MastanKhan

loanranger said:


> Well Spotted. They probably discuss tactics here. Just reaffirms how aware PAF is to the Mki challenge.



Hi,

For all these years---MKI has been THE CHALLENGE---they claimed it---we trained for it---.

When the time came---we were ready for it---but not ready enough---.

If we could have shot down those 6-7 escaping SU30's---the effect would have been momentous---.

In army term---when 1/3rd of an army division is destroyed---the whole of the division is basically finished---.

That would have broken the back of the enemy air force from which they could have never come out---.

6 SU30's being shot down by the JF17's---the enemy air force commanders would have committed suicide---. They would not have been able to show their faces in any excercizes with foreign countries---.

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## Bossman

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For all these years---MKI has been THE CHALLENGE---they claimed it---we trained for it---.
> 
> When the time came---we were ready for it---but not ready enough---.
> 
> If we could have shot down those 6-7 escaping SU30's---the effect would have been momentous---.
> 
> In army term---when 1/3rd of an army division is destroyed---the whole of the division is basically finished---.
> 
> That would have broken the back of the enemy air force from which they could have never come out---.
> 
> 6 SU30's being shot down by the JF17's---the enemy air force commanders would have committed suicide---. They would not have been able to show their faces in any excercizes with foreign countries---.



Mastaan,

Please keep taking your meds otherwise your imagination goes haywire and you end up embarrassing yourself in front of all the kids on the forum. You move from one extreme opinion to another. Previously you use to say PAF cannot shoot down the enemy and now you say PAF did not shoot enough enemy.

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## syed_yusuf

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For all these years---MKI has been THE CHALLENGE---they claimed it---we trained for it---.
> 
> When the time came---we were ready for it---but not ready enough---.
> 
> If we could have shot down those 6-7 escaping SU30's---the effect would have been momentous---.
> 
> In army term---when 1/3rd of an army division is destroyed---the whole of the division is basically finished---.
> 
> That would have broken the back of the enemy air force from which they could have never come out---.
> 
> 6 SU30's being shot down by the JF17's---the enemy air force commanders would have committed suicide---. They would not have been able to show their faces in any excercizes with foreign countries---.


I totally agree paf should have taken those 6 iaf fighters down 

They missed a golden opportunity

Yes I agree we do not want escalation etc but the opportunity to kill was there and they did not avail it. Two is a good number but that could have been 8 or 10 just imagine

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## MastanKhan

syed_yusuf said:


> I totally agree paf should have taken those 6 iaf fighters down
> 
> They missed a golden opportunity
> 
> Yes I agree we do not want escalation etc but the opportunity to kill was there and they did not avail it. Two is a good number but that could have been 8 or 10 just imagine




Hi,

It would have been like breaking the enemy's back with a sledge hammer---.

Those 6 aircraft and the submarine---that would have literally shocked the day lights out of the enemy and other nay sayers of pakistan---.

That was the time to break the myth of the SU30 once for all---but sadly for the cowardice of the air force general---Paf allowed the enemy to gather back its wits and resource---.

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## loanranger

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For all these years---MKI has been THE CHALLENGE---they claimed it---we trained for it---.
> 
> When the time came---we were ready for it---but not ready enough---.
> 
> If we could have shot down those 6-7 escaping SU30's---the effect would have been momentous---.
> 
> In army term---when 1/3rd of an army division is destroyed---the whole of the division is basically finished---.
> 
> That would have broken the back of the enemy air force from which they could have never come out---.
> 
> 6 SU30's being shot down by the JF17's---the enemy air force commanders would have committed suicide---. They would not have been able to show their faces in any excercizes with foreign countries---.


There are varying accounts of how many BVRs were launched by us that day. Indians say around five while we say only two clearances were given. Remember 'Amraam dodgers'. Thats them implying they evaded some. So who knows maybe we did try for more than two kills.
As to why we let the golden chance go when we had them by the throat is very simple. Had we bombed all our targets on ground and in air we probably would be in war even today. There will be better chances in the future. Next time they will come with a point to prove and I agree next time holding back or showing indecision will be treason against the nation. However, in the 2019 scenario a gracefull exit was given to Indians to buy us some time to reinforce. Rafales with their meteors are the real dilemma now. IAF will now be able to take potshots aswell. Indians have already asked the French to send a few of them with their first few rafales.



Knuckles said:


> On a side note, those MKI sticks have been there for years. They've been looking at that for almost 15 years or more.


So where are the Rafale sticks . We might be needing them soon.


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## Ghessan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It would have been like breaking the enemy's back with a sledge hammer---.
> 
> Those 6 aircraft and the submarine---that would have literally shocked the day lights out of the enemy and other nay sayers of pakistan---.
> 
> That was the time to break the myth of the SU30 once for all---but sadly for the cowardice of the air force general---Paf allowed the enemy to gather back its wits and resource---.



and the panic would have been passed on to the coming Rafale drivers hence consequences and the results in a future encounter would have been much awaited by PAF high ups along with the nation.

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## syed_yusuf

loanranger said:


> There are varying accounts of how many BVRs were launched by us that day. Indians say around five while we say only two clearances were given. Remember 'Amraam dodgers'. Thats them implying they evaded some. So who knows maybe we did try for more than two kills.
> As to why we let the golden chance go when we had them by the throat is very simple. Had we bombed all our targets on ground and in air we probably would be in war even today. There will be better chances in the future. Next time they will come with a point to prove and I agree next time holding back or showing indecision will be treason against the nation. However, in the 2019 scenario a gracefull exit was given to Indians to buy us some time to reinforce. Rafales with their meteors are the real dilemma now. IAF will now be able to take potshots aswell. Indians have already asked the French to send a few of them with their first few rafales.
> 
> 
> So where are the Rafale sticks . We might be needing them soon.


I know what u r saying and I agreed on bombing part but taking out air asserts is Different ball game altogather. Remember they violated our space and remember they threatened us .. do take out all 8-10 targets in the air is totally legit

Also paf can provide higher aewcs density than India .. so the upper hand we would have achieved would have gone a long way ....

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## Dreamer.

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For all these years---MKI has been THE CHALLENGE---they claimed it---we trained for it---.
> 
> When the time came---we were ready for it---but not ready enough---.
> 
> If we could have shot down those 6-7 escaping SU30's---the effect would have been momentous---.
> 
> In army term---when 1/3rd of an army division is destroyed---the whole of the division is basically finished---.
> 
> That would have broken the back of the enemy air force from which they could have never come out---.
> 
> 6 SU30's being shot down by the JF17's---the enemy air force commanders would have committed suicide---. They would not have been able to show their faces in any excercizes with foreign countries---.


You are imagining stuff as usual, thinking as always that sitting in your armchair, you know way more than professionals. JF-17 didn't take down any Su-30, F-16 did. It is in no way certain that JF-17 could have taken out 6 Su-30's but didn't. Many details of the February events are classified on both sides. And here you are waving your hands in the air and screaming cowardice on purely imaginary scenario. 
You are like the Sheikh Chilli who lost all his land and cattle and his entire family just because he lost one container of oil. 

Not to say that cowardice has never been displayed by those in power but that's a different subject and unrelated.

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## MastanKhan

Dreamer. said:


> You are imagining stuff as usual, thinking as always that sitting in your armchair, you know way more than professionals. JF-17 didn't take down any Su-30, F-16 did. It is in no way certain that JF-17 could have taken out 6 Su-30's but didn't. Many details of the February events are classified on both sides. And here you are waving your hands in the air and screaming cowardice on purely imaginary scenario.
> You are like the Sheikh Chilli who lost all his land and cattle and his entire family just because he lost one container of oil.
> 
> Not to say that cowardice has never been displayed by those in power but that's a different subject and unrelated.



manners make a man—-but you being pakistani—-not much can expected from you. It is not in your culture and neither did you parents teach you that.

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## monitor

syed_yusuf said:


> I totally agree paf should have taken those 6 iaf fighters down
> 
> They missed a golden opportunity
> 
> Yes I agree we do not want escalation etc but the opportunity to kill was there and they did not avail it. Two is a good number but that could have been 8 or 10 just imagine



Your goal is not to break the myth of mki but to get free Kashmir, so better prepare properly to fight a full fledge war with India.

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## denel

Dreamer. said:


> You are imagining stuff as usual, thinking as always that sitting in your armchair, you know way more than professionals. JF-17 didn't take down any Su-30, F-16 did. It is in no way certain that JF-17 could have taken out 6 Su-30's but didn't. Many details of the February events are classified on both sides. And here you are waving your hands in the air and screaming cowardice on purely imaginary scenario.
> You are like the Sheikh Chilli who lost all his land and cattle and his entire family just because he lost one container of oil.
> 
> Not to say that cowardice has never been displayed by those in power but that's a different subject and unrelated.


That was the best time to have put JF-17s on the front foot and taken Su's down. We can argue merits but that was real situational setting to put entire jf-17 system through its paces; first blood on jf-17s was there but it was not taken advantage of.

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## Haris Ali2140

denel said:


> That was the best time to have put JF-17s on the front foot and taken Su's down. We can argue merits but that was real situational setting to put entire jf-17 system through its paces; first blood on jf-17s was there but it was not taken advantage of.


It was tit for tat operation.

IMO even shotting down a jet wasn't a part of it. But when mig crossed LOC we could do everything with it as long as it happens on our side.


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## Dreamer.

MastanKhan said:


> manners make a man—-but you being pakistani—-not much can expected from you. It is not in your culture and neither did you parents teach you that.


So you can say whatever you like about anyone you like but if someone calls *you* out its suddenly bad manners?? 
There was nothing in my post that was bad manners. On the other hand one only has to go through your posts on the forum to know what bad manners actually means.

I am beginning to understand why many people have you on their ignore list.



denel said:


> That was the best time to have put JF-17s on the front foot and taken Su's down. We can argue merits but that was real situational setting to put entire jf-17 system through its paces; first blood on jf-17s was there but it was not taken advantage of.


You can't be the judge of that. You don't know what was possible and what was not. In India/Pakistan scenario we also have to worry about how far from the border the engagement is and where wreckage will fall, given the situation, threat level etc. Lots of factors are there. I am sure PAF was eager to put JF-17 through its paces aswell but they have to consider all aspects.


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## denel

Dreamer. said:


> So you can say whatever you like about anyone you like but if someone calls *you* out its suddenly bad manners??
> There was nothing in my post that was bad manners. On the other hand one only has to go through your posts on the forum to know what bad manners actually means.
> 
> I am beginning to understand why many people have you on their ignore list.
> 
> 
> You can't be the judge of that. You don't know what was possible and what was not. In India/Pakistan scenario we also have to worry about how far from the border the engagement is and where wreckage will fall, given the situation, threat level etc. Lots of factors are there. I am sure PAF was eager to put JF-17 through its paces aswell but they have to consider all aspects.


yes i know but friend, i was on many fronts and talking from experience; my reaction would be to throw it at them as these situations dont occur; it was i guess may be a measured response but it was needed for R&D work


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## araz

denel said:


> That was the best time to have put JF-17s on the front foot and taken Su's down. We can argue merits but that was real situational setting to put entire jf-17 system through its paces; first blood on jf-17s was there but it was not taken advantage of.


I think PAF followed strict non war time protocol of shooting at only those planes which were in Pak territory. I suspect the others were locked on but turned back before they could be shot. PAF is right that it had locks on the MKIs but I strongly suspect they were either inside Indian territory or PAF was not sure their debris would fall inside Pak lands for it to be a legit hit.
There were other issues of escalation as well. I think it is also fairto say PAF gave the IAF A black eye but still allowed ita face saving exit.
A

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## WiderMan

ADF at the onset of a night sortie. Do the ADFs have NVG compatibility? Because, to the best of my knowledge, no NVIS mods were done on them.





Twin-stick Block 52+

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## Raider 21

WiderMan said:


> ADF at the onset of a night sortie. Do the ADFs have NVG compatibility? Because, to the best of my knowledge, no NVIS mods were done on them.
> View attachment 593043


Doesn't stop them from night flying without NVG.


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## aliyusuf

araz said:


> I think PAF followed strict non war time protocol of shooting at only those planes which were in Pak territory. I suspect the others were locked on but turned back before they could be shot. PAF is right that it had locks on the MKIs but I strongly suspect they were either inside Indian territory or PAF was not sure their debris would fall inside Pak lands for it to be a legit hit.
> There were other issues of escalation as well. I think it is also fairto say PAF gave the IAF A black eye but still allowed ita face saving exit.
> A


Agreed, Sir.
Without that face saving exit, India would have had no option but to escalate the situation, even though it hadn't planned to. That would only have developed into a full scale war, which either side could ill afford. Hence, whatever happened ... it was the best possible outcome under those circumstances.

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## WiderMan

Knuckles said:


> Doesn't stop them from night flying without NVG.


It does not, neither did I mean to imply that. It's simply a case of quelling one's curiosity if you will.

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## MastanKhan

Dreamer. said:


> So you can say whatever you like about anyone you like but if someone calls *you* out its suddenly bad manners??
> There was nothing in my post that was bad manners. On the other hand one only has to go through your posts on the forum to know what bad manners actually means.
> I am beginning to understand why many people have you on their ignore list.



The only person on my ignore list is one without manners---porfane and vulgar.

How would I get to know my enemy if I put them on my ignore list---. How would I know my short comings if I put critics on my ignore list---.

I told you---these manners you learn from home---. This IGNORE list---is also very " pakistani " in nature---. Inzi says---I don't read what my critics say---Person A says I don't listen to my critics---person B says I don't listen to my critics---and guess what---they never fix their mistakes---.

In the US---just the opposite---who is your best buddy---who rips your heart out and tears you apart for your fck ups---.

I have asked you guys many a times---where does the Paf goes to learn about tactics strategies management planning---what secret organization teaches the that---.

There is none---all books---lectures and literature that is availabe to them is availabke to me in one form or other---and if you look for it---you will also find it---.

Young man---I have lived your age---I also had my heroes in the blue uniform---and they were second only to the almighty---till I saw their different face---.

See---the news out here is the order to take them on came 15-16 seconds too late---.

Which means the missile launch was the right decision---but it did not proceed because the enemy ran away---.

This proves that there was indecision and cowardice at some level of heirarchy---.

Which also means that MMAlam's claim of " pilot is incharge " of the sortie did not hold true---this time they were not---.

In their pre planning they had not taken that into consideration---.

This strike was a massive failure in reality with what opportunity was being presented to pak air force---.

Israeli pilots would not have let the enemy escape---. The indians did not either---remember the Atlantique---.

@araz reminds me of Prime minister of the Kingdom of Baghdad---at the time of the MONGOL invasion---. That man convinced the king that there was no fear of war---released the army---did not pay them salaries---he thought with his silver tongue he would convince the mongol Khan---little did he know about the enemy---.

And little do you know about the current day indian enemy---.

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## Talon



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## Haris Ali2140

What are these and what are they used for???

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## Raider 21

Haris Ali2140 said:


> View attachment 593306
> 
> What are these and what are they used for???


Aerodynamic design and stability.

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## WiderMan

Shahbaz One.

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## Dreamer.

denel said:


> yes i know but friend, i was on many fronts and talking from experience; my reaction would be to throw it at them as these situations dont occur; it was i guess may be a measured response but it was needed for R&D work


I can understand and respect that you have experience and your analysis is based on that. But that said, you do not know what the situation on the ground (or you can say in the air) was. What exactly was actually possible and what was not, what the threat level/cosequence analyses were, and how much of the information we have is accurate and how much is fog of war/propaganda etc. SO one can analyse but has to be measured and cautious in making judgements. That was my point.


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## Haris Ali2140

@The Eagle @waz @Dubious 
Thread is ready to be polluted. Keep an eye on it.


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## Dreamer.

MastanKhan said:


> The only person on my ignore list is one without manners---porfane and vulgar.
> 
> How would I get to know my enemy if I put them on my ignore list---. How would I know my short comings if I put critics on my ignore list---.
> 
> I told you---these manners you learn from home---. This IGNORE list---is also very " pakistani " in nature---. Inzi says---I don't read what my critics say---Person A says I don't listen to my critics---person B says I don't listen to my critics---and guess what---they never fix their mistakes---.
> 
> In the US---just the opposite---who is your best buddy---who rips your heart out and tears you apart for your fck ups---.
> 
> I have asked you guys many a times---where does the Paf goes to learn about tactics strategies management planning---what secret organization teaches the that---.
> 
> There is none---all books---lectures and literature that is availabe to them is availabke to me in one form or other---and if you look for it---you will also find it---.
> 
> Young man---I have lived your age---I also had my heroes in the blue uniform---and they were second only to the almighty---till I saw their different face---.
> 
> See---the news out here is the order to take them on came 15-16 seconds too late---.
> 
> Which means the missile launch was the right decision---but it did not proceed because the enemy ran away---.
> 
> This proves that there was indecision and cowardice at some level of heirarchy---.
> 
> Which also means that MMAlam's claim of " pilot is incharge " of the sortie did not hold true---this time they were not---.
> 
> In their pre planning they had not taken that into consideration---.
> 
> This strike was a massive failure in reality with what opportunity was being presented to pak air force---.
> 
> Israeli pilots would not have let the enemy escape---. The indians did not either---remember the Atlantique---.
> 
> @araz reminds me of Prime minister of the Kingdom of Baghdad---at the time of the MONGOL invasion---. That man convinced the king that there was no fear of war---released the army---did not pay them salaries---he thought with his silver tongue he would convince the mongol Khan---little did he know about the enemy---.
> 
> And little do you know about the current day indian enemy---.



All of the above is just nonsense mumbo-jumbo unless you can show and prove where I used bad manners which is what you accused me of, whereas the truth is that you are the one guilty of that. And therefore by your own logic you are well deserving of being on ignore lists and not fit for any attention let alone discussion. 
So the onus is on you to show that.


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## WiderMan

kingmafiafriend said:


> F-16s are nothing in front of su-30



Begone

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## Dreamer.

No need to worry about his comments on F-16 vs Su-30. Let him believe whatever he wants. 
The point made by Mangus Ortes Novem is worthy of attention though.

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## Nasr

kingmafiafriend said:


> F-16s are nothing in front of su-30



Sure, if the Su-30s were Russian Aerospace Force's and the Russian combat pilots were operating them. But Indian Air Force is pathetic to it's core. So kindly refrain from commenting air combat, when you know nothing of it.


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## StormBreaker

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Kindly, refrain from nonsense!
> 
> 
> 
> @WebMaster @The Eagle @HRK @Dubious @Irfan Baloch @Arsalan Paks, I find the signature in this posters attempt to insult *OurLand **unacceptable*...
> 
> How come this one is not enjoying permanenet holidays from *Pakistan Defence Forum?*
> 
> Encouraging differing opinions is one thing but allowing the *Anti Pakistan* space is another. I am certain... you shall do The Right Thing
> 
> Update: After this post the said poster has changed its signature... the matter still stands @waz
> 
> @Pakhtoon yum @Verve @ps3linux @Sine Nomine @DESERT FIGHTER @Great Janjua @Areesh @RIWWIR @StormBreaker @ghazi52 @Zibago @Windjammer @masterchief_mirza @aliyusuf @Counter-Errorist


@The Eagle if you would be so kind to press the flush button so that this balochistan ka baap goes back to the shithole he crumbled out from







Nasr said:


> Sure, if the Su-30s were Russian Aerospace Force's and the Russian combat pilots were operating them. But Indian Air Force is pathetic to it's core. So kindly refrain from commenting air combat, when you know nothing of it.


You don’t need to reply every other poop. Just leave them and press the flush button

Why even allow such people on the forum ?

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## denel

Dreamer. said:


> I can understand and respect that you have experience and your analysis is based on that. But that said, you do not know what the situation on the ground (or you can say in the air) was. What exactly was actually possible and what was not, what the threat level/cosequence analyses were, and how much of the information we have is accurate and how much is fog of war/propaganda etc. SO one can analyse but has to be measured and cautious in making judgements. That was my point.


yes of course; as an EW/ELINT specialist, i would be very interested with entire recording of all the rf spectrum; a lot of what is said open in public domain should be taken with a pinch of salt .. that is all.

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## masterchief_mirza

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Also this *FacistTroll *is *insulting **Christians *too... *King Maffia Friend*... decode it ... anyhow, some very respected posters like *Khafee *here get banned for defending Islam while these *GagnuFacists *get a free ride... to insult other people's religion... @PakSword
> 
> I strongly object to insulting anyone's religion. Period!!!


 Mercifully it appears he has indeed now been flushed back to the primordial soup to mingle with other species of a similar neural capacity.

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## WiderMan

TB to 2010

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## The Eagle

StormBreaker said:


> @The Eagle if you would be so kind to press the flush button



I am bit late to the party and SIRE took him out. However, such desperate souls are wandering in loneliness and lost all of their tricks so have to come here and vent frustration and then we have hammers, too.

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## WiderMan

So much drip

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## Mig hunter

MastanKhan said:


> manners make a man—-but you being pakistani—-not much can expected from you. It is not in your culture and neither did you parents teach you that.


The reply was your right but barking at him being a Pakistani wasn't. You are worst than him because you have abused my nation.. It is better to be Pakistani than what you are. Please next time don't bark on my nation or anything related to it.

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## Path-Finder

A looot of useful and technical info on F16.


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## StormBreaker

Mig hunter said:


> The reply was your right but barking at him being a Pakistani wasn't. You are worst than him because you have abused my nation.. It is better to be Pakistani than what you are. Please next time don't bark on my nation or anything related to it.


When people like sir @MastanKhan criticize calling as a ‘pakistani’, he is referring to nation as a group of people. And it’s an undeniable fact that we are no less than gotham, quite corrupt nation having extremes of GOOD and BAD. We lack basic etiquette in majority while we have goodness as well in common. Sir MK is an old man, of an older generation, has seen the transition and transformation of generation, how the curve is going down n down. His concerns are legit, and that’s what makes an old man angry. People who live in first world/middle eastern countries know what are etiquettes or ways of spending a decent life.

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## khanasifm

So f-16 Unlike older types mirage , f-7 etc the electrical wiring are not routed outside of fuel tank but actually passes through the tank which can cause an electrical fire but according to someone I spoke to never worried about it as it’s so solid engineered and in 20/30 years never bothered to check by opening the wing tank or others 

Older type not the case


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## MastanKhan

Mig hunter said:


> The reply was your right but barking at him being a Pakistani wasn't. You are worst than him because you have abused my nation.. It is better to be Pakistani than what you are. Please next time don't bark on my nation or anything related to it.



Hi

Just be grateful I answered your post. 

At my age I dont bark. I leave it to you kids to do that.

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## Dreamer.

StormBreaker said:


> When people like sir @MastanKhan criticize calling as a ‘pakistani’, he is referring to nation as a group of people. And it’s an undeniable fact that we are no less than gotham, quite corrupt nation having extremes of GOOD and BAD. We lack basic etiquette in majority while we have goodness as well in common. Sir MK is an old man, of an older generation, has seen the transition and transformation of generation, how the curve is going down n down. His concerns are legit, and that’s what makes an old man angry. People who live in first world/middle eastern countries know what are etiquettes or ways of spending a decent life.


He may be old and angry but it gives him no right to abuse others and it doesn't excuse his bad manners.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi
> At my age I dont bark.


No you just lie and make false accusations instead.


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## Av8er

MastanKhan said:


> manners make a man—-but you being pakistani—-not much can expected from you. It is not in your culture and neither did you parents teach you that.



Not much can be expected from you being the bitter, old, self loathing condescending ahole you are. If you have such a low opinion of Pakistanis get lost and dont let the door hit you on your a$$!


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## StormBreaker

Av8er said:


> That’s one thing I cannot do is listen to anyone talk ill of my country. Its not ego it’s insecurity for not adding up to much in his life. He lives vicariously through his posts on PDF and the brown nosing all his chamchas do!


When did he ever talk ill of “Pakistan as a country” rather always talks on its people and he is right. Your mind has some curtains closed till now, once it opens, you will see what MK really says. Talking Ill of “ill-mannered people” vs talking Ill of motherland are 2 different thing and latter is not the case here

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## Av8er

StormBreaker said:


> When did he ever talk ill of “Pakistan as a country” rather always talks on its people and he is right. Your mind has some curtains closed till now, once it opens, you will see what MK really says. Talking Ill of “ill-mannered people” vs talking Ill of motherland are 2 different thing and latter is not the case here


I have read enough of his posts to see how condescending and boorish he is towards others. He has the audacity to teach others manners when he should learn some manners himself on how to address others on a forum.

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## StormBreaker

Av8er said:


> I have read enough of his posts to see how condescending and boorish he is towards others. He has the audacity to teach others manners when he should learn some manners himself on how to address others on a forum.


He does get harsh tho, @MastanKhan , ever feel angry, just spit and ignore, move on.



seven0seven said:


> Then why he often use the terms for PAkistanis CHEAP/ HAVE LOW IQ/ILLITERATE JAHIL PAKISTANIS


Isn’t that a general truth buddy ? We are asa whole quite cheap people, (not implying everyone) but in masses, either of those 3 qualities you mentioned, a person is either all of 3 or at least 1. He is not wrong. We must find our errors, correct them, not always play blind, thinking we are the best and all. This is where we are wrong or rather “innocent (?)”

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## Ultima Thule

StormBreaker said:


> Isn’t that a general truth buddy ? We are asa whole quite cheap people, (not implying everyone) but in masses, either of those 3 qualities you mentioned, a person is either all of 3 or at least 1. He is not wrong. We must find our errors, correct them, not always play blind, thinking we are the best and all. This is where we are wrong or rather “innocent (?)”


Yaar what about your friends will insult/abuse you in front all peoples, what you gonna do, instead being polite and try to correct others peoples wrong theories/ideas in a respectful manner,most of us are not defense experts but defense enthusiasts, he always try to abuse insult others instead correct other wrong theories/ideas in respectful manners

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## Vortex

seven0seven said:


> Yaar what about your friends will insult/abuse you in front all peoples, what you gonna do, instead being polite and try to correct others peoples wrong theories/ideas in a respectful manner,most of us are not defense experts but defense enthusiasts, he always try to abuse insult others instead correct other wrong theories/ideas in respectful manners




That is exactly what I have often advised him. But hey he is old man and get angry easily. So it’s up to us to take intelligently what he says by discarding what is not important.

In most of his messages if not all, there is something to study, to understand.. for Pakistan’s own benefit. If he wasn’t loving Pakistan he wouldn’t spent time here.

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## aliyusuf

seven0seven said:


> Bro he often criticized PAF without any logic and most recently he often blame we didn't went Yemen war lead by Saudi Arabia and will become a leader of NATO like alliance for Muslims countries


Brother that criticism is borne out of an intense desire to see it (the PAF) excel in what it does and not finding it perform at the desired level disappoints and enrages him. 

He really is gifted to think out of the box. He teaches us to consider aspects of issues that is not being addressed by the rest of us. 

I second what @Vortex said in his post #11845 in this thread.

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## nomi007

Dual Racks

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## krash

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 593467
> 
> Dual Racks



Apart from it being CGI, it makes little sense too. Why would one skip out on a set of pylons only to then use dual racks for the second pair of Aim-120. That second pair could have been mounted on stations 2 and 8.


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## Mig hunter

I am sorry for not knowing that MK is an old man and using inappropriate words. I am so sorry sir...
But I stand by my point... No body has the right to bad mouth a nation. Never forget our shuhda, ghazi, ppl like Edhi sb Ruth pafau and many more like them are part of Pakistani nation.
Back to F 16...

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## Ali_Baba

nomi007 said:


> View attachment 593467
> 
> Dual Racks



Are these PAF F16s ?


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## MastanKhan

Mig hunter said:


> I am sorry for not knowing that MK is an old man and using inappropriate words. I am so sorry sir...
> But I stand by my point... No body has the right to bad mouth a nation. Never forget our shuhda, ghazi, ppl like Edhi sb Ruth pafau and many more like them are part of Pakistani nation.
> Back to F 16...



hi

thank you for your comments-i appreciate them a lot.

be mad at me or curse me—-i am not bothered by that.

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## JohnWick

Ali_Baba said:


> Are these PAF F16s ?


Yup


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## Haris Ali2140

Daxhing Leo said:


> At $8.5 million per unit, Pakistan eyes old F-16s from Private company
> 
> Jetlease Palm Beach which is the largest private aircraft leasing company in the world is selling 80’s made F-16A/B Fighting Falcon acquired from Jordan for sale at a unit price of $8.5 million per unit, which according to the company has not been demilitarized and is Block 20 Mid-Life-Update jets which can be put back into service if required.
> The chatter in the Pakistani defense community is that Pakistan Air Force (PAF) might or already have approached Jetlease Palm Beach to purchase this jet and along with other three similar jets that are with the company and are for sale.
> In Total PAF plans to acquire at least 8 F-16s which have been retired from various operators due to age and due to obsolescence of technology. Many close allies like Turkey which have excess F-16 in its fleet will also sell them an older lot to fill the void left by the loss of some aircraft in accidents off late.
> F-16 acquired by PAF in early 80 continues to remain the front line jets in Pakistan’s Arsenal after Joint venture with China on the development of JF-17 couldn’t get desired boosts in the capabilities.
> 
> Source:
> https://idrw.org/at-8-5-million-per-unit-pakistan-eyes-old-f-16s-from-private-company/


Shitty article from a shitty source.

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## Haris Ali2140

StormBreaker said:


> @aliyusuf @Signalian @Mangus Ortus Novem
> 
> Even though this article is based on personal opinion of a random person, what is your say on this?
> 
> Secondly, follow the idrw link, there in the comments section, a guy named ‘beencensured’, interesting indian... Rare breed. Pdf needs such neutral indians for convos


Delusional Indians. Nothing else.

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## aliyusuf

StormBreaker said:


> @aliyusuf @Signalian @Mangus Ortus Novem
> 
> Even though this article is based on personal opinion of a random person, what is your say on this?
> 
> Secondly, follow the idrw link, there in the comments section, a guy named ‘beencensured’, interesting indian... Rare breed. Pdf needs such neutral indians for convos


Such a sale is also subject to US approval. But if we can somehow pull it off we must go for it, depending on the condition of these planes. I am an advocate of the Ozgur like upgrade for these birds i.e. no longer any strings attached.

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## StormBreaker

aliyusuf said:


> Such a sale is also subject to US approval. But if we can somehow pull it off we must go for it, depending on the condition of these planes. I am an advocate of the Ozgur like upgrade for these birds i.e. no longer any strings attached.


But US won’t allow such



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For all these years---MKI has been THE CHALLENGE---they claimed it---we trained for it---.
> 
> When the time came---we were ready for it---but not ready enough---.
> 
> If we could have shot down those 6-7 escaping SU30's---the effect would have been momentous---.
> 
> In army term---when 1/3rd of an army division is destroyed---the whole of the division is basically finished---.
> 
> That would have broken the back of the enemy air force from which they could have never come out---.
> 
> 6 SU30's being shot down by the JF17's---the enemy air force commanders would have committed suicide---. They would not have been able to show their faces in any excercizes with foreign countries---.


I don’t know where you getting this info from, how credible, but if really true, how stupid of letting them go. Hit 7 birds at once, they won’t even think of coming near again.


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## aliyusuf

StormBreaker said:


> But US won’t allow such


In my humble opinion, that is what some of us think. Upgrading, older block-15 and block-20 vipers with Ozgur like upgrades will not change anything significant. We already have nukes and missiles with greater destructive power and range than a fleet of F-16s ... and business is still as usual.

Just my 2 cents.

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## WiderMan

aliyusuf said:


> In my humble opinion, that is what some of us think. Upgrading, older block-15 and block-20 vipers with Ozgur like upgrades will not change anything significant. We already have nukes and missiles with greater destructive power and range than a fleet of F-16s ... and business is still as usual.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.





Nukes sure helped a lot on 27th Feb. Your current avionics suite will be obsolete by the mid-2030s if not earlier, but yeah that's not like a big deal or anything.


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## aliyusuf

WiderMan said:


> Nukes sure helped a lot on 27th Feb. Your current avionics suite will be obsolete by the mid-2030s if not earlier, but yeah that's not like a big deal or anything.


Ozgur Upgrades include GaN based TRM AESA radar, new mission computer avionics ... the works. The US will only release AESA for Pakistan when it will be able to exact something in return from Pakistan ... more strings. My post was in reply to the argument that the US will not allow Ozgur like upgrades. Post 2030 era, our Vipers will become obsolete sans AESA.

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## WiderMan

krash said:


> Apart from it being CGI, it makes little sense too. Why would one skip out on a set of pylons only to then use dual racks for the second pair of Aim-120. That second pair could have been mounted on stations 2 and 8.





It makes no sense at all, only the F-16V allows for AAMs to be carried on dual racks. This is how a B52 would make do.








aliyusuf said:


> Ozgur Upgrades include GaN based TRM AESA radar, new mission computer avionics ... the works. The US will only release AESA for Pakistan when it will be able to exact something in return from Pakistan ... more strings. My post was in reply to the argument that the US will not allow Ozgur like upgrades. Post 2030 era, our Vipers will become obsolete sans AESA.



Fair enough, thank you for clarifying.

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## Windjammer



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## Haris Ali2140

@WiderMan 
Whose account is this???

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1206851088399421440

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## nomi007

*Pakistan to Get 36 Latest F-16 Jets & Upgrade Old F-16s*
Posted 1 hour ago by Sajawal Rehman

https://propakistani.pk/2019/12/18/pakistan-to-get-36-latest-f-16-jets-upgrade-old-f-16s/
Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is all set to upgrade its F-16 program with technical assistance and possibly 36 advanced fighter jets from the United States.

Booz Allen Hamilton Inc. has won a fixed-price $9.1 million contract for technical security team support services for Pakistan’s F-16 program, according to the United States Department of Defense. On the official website, it wrote:

Booz Allen Hamilton Inc., McLean, Virginia, has been awarded a not-to-exceed $9,111,111 predominantly firm-fixed-price undefinitized contract to provide technical security team support services in support of the Pakistan F-16 program.

According to the details, the deadline for the project is set as 18 June 2020 and all the work will be done in Pakistan.

ALSO READ

Pakistan is Working On Its Own 5th-Gen Stealth Fighter Jet

“This award is the result of a sole-source acquisition. Foreign military sales funds of $4,464,444 are being obligated at the time of the award”, states the Defense Department’s contracts list for 16 December 2019.

Billions have already been spent on Pakistan’s top of the line fighters ever since the induction of Block 15 F-16A/B configuration in PAF in 1982.

Pakistan had bought a $5.1 billion Military Sales Package from the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) in 2006, however, the deal didn’t go through completely due to the 2005 Earthquake, however, it is now going through with Pakistan set to get 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 with modern APG-68(V)9 radars.

The package for new F-16s includes:


7 spare F100-PW-229 EEP engines
7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets
36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II
36 Conformal Fuel Tanks
36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals
36 GPS and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems
36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites: ALQ-211 AIDEW without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (picked); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM.
1 Unit Level Trainer
In addition, associated support equipment will also be a part of the deal. A $650 million deal for advanced weaponry for new F-16s will also take place and it will include: 500 AIM-120C5 AMRAAM, 12 AMRAAM training missile, 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles, 240 LAU-129/A Launchers, 500 GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits, 600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 and GBU-24s, 800 MK-82 500 pound and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs and 700 BLU-109 2,000-pound bunker-buster.

Pakistan has also expressed its desire to purchase the Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) Program equipment for PAF’s F-16A/B fighter aircraft for $1.3 billion whereas another $151 million will be spent on F-16 A/B Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades.

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## PakSword

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> @Khafee *brother *looks like your *KhafeeLeaks *coming to *fruitions*!!!!
> 
> @aliyusuf @Counter-Errorist @HRK @ali_raza @Signalian @PakSword @Dubious @The Eagle


I never doubted @Khafee 's information. Sad that he left the forum.

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## The Eagle

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> @Khafee *brother *looks like your *KhafeeLeaks *coming to *fruitions*!!!!
> 
> @aliyusuf @Counter-Errorist @HRK @ali_raza @Signalian @PakSword @Dubious @The Eagle



I wouldn't deny anything plainly or out-rightly in this regard but the sourced media outlet is merely an OSINT type that used to get information from here & there. I will even safely assume that the news may be based upon what Khafee said on this Forum.

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## Yasser76

This is very obviously fake news

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## Trango Towers

nomi007 said:


> *Pakistan to Get 36 Latest F-16 Jets & Upgrade Old F-16s*
> Posted 1 hour ago by Sajawal Rehman
> 
> https://propakistani.pk/2019/12/18/pakistan-to-get-36-latest-f-16-jets-upgrade-old-f-16s/
> Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is all set to upgrade its F-16 program with technical assistance and possibly 36 advanced fighter jets from the United States.
> 
> Booz Allen Hamilton Inc. has won a fixed-price $9.1 million contract for technical security team support services for Pakistan’s F-16 program, according to the United States Department of Defense. On the official website, it wrote:
> 
> Booz Allen Hamilton Inc., McLean, Virginia, has been awarded a not-to-exceed $9,111,111 predominantly firm-fixed-price undefinitized contract to provide technical security team support services in support of the Pakistan F-16 program.
> 
> According to the details, the deadline for the project is set as 18 June 2020 and all the work will be done in Pakistan.
> 
> ALSO READ
> 
> Pakistan is Working On Its Own 5th-Gen Stealth Fighter Jet
> 
> “This award is the result of a sole-source acquisition. Foreign military sales funds of $4,464,444 are being obligated at the time of the award”, states the Defense Department’s contracts list for 16 December 2019.
> 
> Billions have already been spent on Pakistan’s top of the line fighters ever since the induction of Block 15 F-16A/B configuration in PAF in 1982.
> 
> Pakistan had bought a $5.1 billion Military Sales Package from the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) in 2006, however, the deal didn’t go through completely due to the 2005 Earthquake, however, it is now going through with Pakistan set to get 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 with modern APG-68(V)9 radars.
> 
> The package for new F-16s includes:
> 
> 
> 7 spare F100-PW-229 EEP engines
> 7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets
> 36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
> 36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II
> 36 Conformal Fuel Tanks
> 36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals
> 36 GPS and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems
> 36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
> 36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites: ALQ-211 AIDEW without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (picked); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM.
> 1 Unit Level Trainer
> In addition, associated support equipment will also be a part of the deal. A $650 million deal for advanced weaponry for new F-16s will also take place and it will include: 500 AIM-120C5 AMRAAM, 12 AMRAAM training missile, 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles, 240 LAU-129/A Launchers, 500 GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits, 600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 and GBU-24s, 800 MK-82 500 pound and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs and 700 BLU-109 2,000-pound bunker-buster.
> 
> Pakistan has also expressed its desire to purchase the Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) Program equipment for PAF’s F-16A/B fighter aircraft for $1.3 billion whereas another $151 million will be spent on F-16 A/B Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades.


Again is no one reading POSSIBLY 36 F16.

Possibly hot air


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## aliyusuf

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> @Khafee *brother *looks like your *KhafeeLeaks *coming to *fruitions*!!!!
> 
> @aliyusuf @Counter-Errorist @HRK @ali_raza @Signalian @PakSword @Dubious @The Eagle


Lets wait till a more reputable source breaks this news. I have my doubts about how this news is presented in the propakistani site.

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## Ghessan

only this para is being found out of the whole news:
"Booz Allen Hamilton Inc., McLean, Virginia, has been awarded a not-to-exceed $9,111,111 predominantly firm-fixed-price undefinitized contract to provide technical security team support services in support of the Pakistan F-16 program. Work will be performed in Pakistan and is expected to be complete by June 18, 2020. This contract involves 100% foreign military sales to Pakistan. This award is the result of a sole-source acquisition. Foreign military sales funds of $4,464,444 are being obligated at the time of award. The Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Air Force Security Assistance and Cooperation Directorate, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, is the contracting activity (FA8630-20-C-5020)."

https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Contracts/Contract/Article/2041268//

may be someone could help find the whole news.

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## kursed

This describes the original, Block 52 deal. The author has obviously mixed details here. The contract is just for a technical security team, that keeps overwatch on Pakistani Block 52s, nothing else.

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## mingle

kursed said:


> This describes the original, Block 52 deal. The author has obviously mixed details here. The contract is just for a technical security team, that keeps overwatch on Pakistani Block 52s, nothing else.


Old News

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## Signalian

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> @Khafee *brother *looks like your *KhafeeLeaks *coming to *fruitions*!!!!
> 
> @aliyusuf @Counter-Errorist @HRK @ali_raza @Signalian @PakSword @Dubious @The Eagle


I usually refer to this website for PAF F-16 info and the news is here

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...es-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/

Updated 18 dec 2019

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## TsAr

I think its about time @Khafee naysayers should acknowledge the fact that there is something going on in the back ground.



Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> @Khafee *brother *looks like your *KhafeeLeaks *coming to *fruitions*!!!!
> 
> @aliyusuf @Counter-Errorist @HRK @ali_raza @Signalian @PakSword @Dubious @The Eagle


The Air Chief is in China......

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## TsAr

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> *This is most significant*... I wonder what they are cooking with Blk3?


It could be something to do wit Blk-3 aur khafee leaks 3 or both......

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## PakFactor

PakSword said:


> I never doubted @Khafee 's information. Sad that he left the forum.



He left the forum for good? What happened.


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## mdmm

Kindly put opinion .Is it true that USA is now ready to give 36 new F-16 upgraded jet fighters to Pakistan ??
--------------------------------------------------------
*Pakistan to Get 36 Latest F-16 Jets & Upgrade Old F-16s*
Posted 7 hours ago by Sajawal Rehman
https://propakistani.pk/2019/12/18/pakistan-to-get-36-latest-f-16-jets-upgrade-old-f-16s/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"" Pakistan had bought a $5.1 billion Military Sales Package from the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) in 2006, however, the deal didn’t go through completely due to the 2005 Earthquake, however, it is now going through with Pakistan set to get 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 with modern APG-68(V)9 radars.""
https://timesofislamabad.com/18-Dec...ghter-jets-from-us-upgrade-the-existing-fleet


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mdmm said:


> Kindly put opinion .Is it true that USA is now ready to give 36 new F-16 upgraded jet fighters to Pakistan ??
> --------------------------------------------------------
> *Pakistan to Get 36 Latest F-16 Jets & Upgrade Old F-16s*
> Posted 7 hours ago by Sajawal Rehman
> https://propakistani.pk/2019/12/18/pakistan-to-get-36-latest-f-16-jets-upgrade-old-f-16s/
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "" Pakistan had bought a $5.1 billion Military Sales Package from the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) in 2006, however, the deal didn’t go through completely due to the 2005 Earthquake, however, it is now going through with Pakistan set to get 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 with modern APG-68(V)9 radars.""
> https://timesofislamabad.com/18-Dec...ghter-jets-from-us-upgrade-the-existing-fleet


No. These news reports (Times of Islamabad, ProPakistani) are way off.

The only current F-16 program is the security team contract ($ 9 m with a total value of up to $100 m over the duration of the program). The other stuff -- i.e., 36 F-16s, upgrading older F-16s, etc -- is all old information from the F-16 program in 2005, which was completed years ago.

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## jupiter2007

mdmm said:


> Kindly put opinion .Is it true that USA is now ready to give 36 new F-16 upgraded jet fighters to Pakistan ??
> --------------------------------------------------------
> *Pakistan to Get 36 Latest F-16 Jets & Upgrade Old F-16s*
> Posted 7 hours ago by Sajawal Rehman
> https://propakistani.pk/2019/12/18/pakistan-to-get-36-latest-f-16-jets-upgrade-old-f-16s/
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "" Pakistan had bought a $5.1 billion Military Sales Package from the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) in 2006, however, the deal didn’t go through completely due to the 2005 Earthquake, however, it is now going through with Pakistan set to get 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 with modern APG-68(V)9 radars.""
> https://timesofislamabad.com/18-Dec...ghter-jets-from-us-upgrade-the-existing-fleet



Fake news, no confirmation from Defense attaché Pakistan Embbacy DC.

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## airomerix

No such deal has taken place except a team from US is set to work on our current F-16s for their sustainment needs. The work will be completed by June 2020. 

This will bring our F-16 mission capability rate at 90%+ for at least a year.

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## Ghessan

Signalian said:


> I usually refer to this website for PAF F-16 info and the news is here
> 
> https://www.defenseindustrydaily.co...es-upgrades-weapons-for-pakistans-f16s-02396/
> 
> Updated 18 dec 2019



it says in the link: The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of up to 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52




aircraft – a buy of 18 jets, with an option for another 18. *The planes would be equipped with the APG-68(V)9 radars, which are the most modern F-16 radar except for the UAE’s F-16E/F *Block 60 “Desert Falcons” and their AN/APG-80 AESA.

if this true when there is an AESA radar available currently?


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## ziaulislam

Ghessan said:


> it says in the link: The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of up to 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52
> 
> 
> 
> aircraft – a buy of 18 jets, with an option for another 18. *The planes would be equipped with the APG-68(V)9 radars, which are the most modern F-16 radar except for the UAE’s F-16E/F *Block 60 “Desert Falcons” and their AN/APG-80 AESA.
> 
> if this true when there is an AESA radar available currently?


For heavens sake ...this is fake news..
Forget about new..uncle sam wont even let old obsolete f16s that we want


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## Ghessan

ziaulislam said:


> For heavens sake ...this is fake news..
> Forget about new..uncle sam wont even let old obsolete f16s that we want



yeah! i know this particular news is fake


----------



## WiderMan

Haris Ali2140 said:


> @WiderMan
> Whose account is this???
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1206851088399421440



I wouldn't know


----------



## Silicon0000

nomi007 said:


> *Pakistan to Get 36 Latest F-16 Jets & Upgrade Old F-16s*
> Posted 1 hour ago by Sajawal Rehman
> 
> https://propakistani.pk/2019/12/18/pakistan-to-get-36-latest-f-16-jets-upgrade-old-f-16s/
> Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is all set to upgrade its F-16 program with technical assistance and possibly 36 advanced fighter jets from the United States.
> 
> Booz Allen Hamilton Inc. has won a fixed-price $9.1 million contract for technical security team support services for Pakistan’s F-16 program, according to the United States Department of Defense. On the official website, it wrote:
> 
> Booz Allen Hamilton Inc., McLean, Virginia, has been awarded a not-to-exceed $9,111,111 predominantly firm-fixed-price undefinitized contract to provide technical security team support services in support of the Pakistan F-16 program.
> 
> According to the details, the deadline for the project is set as 18 June 2020 and all the work will be done in Pakistan.
> 
> ALSO READ
> 
> Pakistan is Working On Its Own 5th-Gen Stealth Fighter Jet
> 
> “This award is the result of a sole-source acquisition. Foreign military sales funds of $4,464,444 are being obligated at the time of the award”, states the Defense Department’s contracts list for 16 December 2019.
> 
> Billions have already been spent on Pakistan’s top of the line fighters ever since the induction of Block 15 F-16A/B configuration in PAF in 1982.
> 
> Pakistan had bought a $5.1 billion Military Sales Package from the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) in 2006, however, the deal didn’t go through completely due to the 2005 Earthquake, however, it is now going through with Pakistan set to get 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 with modern APG-68(V)9 radars.
> 
> The package for new F-16s includes:
> 
> 
> 7 spare F100-PW-229 EEP engines
> 7 spare APG-68(V)9 radar sets
> 36 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
> 36 AN/ARC-238 SINCGARS radios with HAVE QUICK I/II
> 36 Conformal Fuel Tanks
> 36 Link-16 Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals
> 36 GPS and Embedded GPS/Inertial Navigation Systems
> 36 APX-113 Advanced Identification Friend or Foe Systems
> 36 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites: ALQ-211 AIDEW without Digital Radio Frequency Memory (picked); or AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-131 Electronic Counter Measures pod without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-187 Advanced Self-Protection Integrated Suites without DRFM; or AN/ALQ-178 Self-Protection Electronic Warfare Suites without DRFM.
> 1 Unit Level Trainer
> In addition, associated support equipment will also be a part of the deal. A $650 million deal for advanced weaponry for new F-16s will also take place and it will include: 500 AIM-120C5 AMRAAM, 12 AMRAAM training missile, 200 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder Short-Range Air-Air Missiles, 240 LAU-129/A Launchers, 500 GBU-31/38 Guided Bomb Unit (GBU) kits, 600 Enhanced Paveway GBU-12 and GBU-24s, 800 MK-82 500 pound and MK-84 2,000 pound GP bombs and 700 BLU-109 2,000-pound bunker-buster.
> 
> Pakistan has also expressed its desire to purchase the Mid-Life Upgrade (MLU) Program equipment for PAF’s F-16A/B fighter aircraft for $1.3 billion whereas another $151 million will be spent on F-16 A/B Engine Modifications and Falcon UP/STAR Structural Upgrades.





mdmm said:


> Kindly put opinion .Is it true that USA is now ready to give 36 new F-16 upgraded jet fighters to Pakistan ??
> --------------------------------------------------------
> *Pakistan to Get 36 Latest F-16 Jets & Upgrade Old F-16s*
> Posted 7 hours ago by Sajawal Rehman
> https://propakistani.pk/2019/12/18/pakistan-to-get-36-latest-f-16-jets-upgrade-old-f-16s/
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "" Pakistan had bought a $5.1 billion Military Sales Package from the US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) in 2006, however, the deal didn’t go through completely due to the 2005 Earthquake, however, it is now going through with Pakistan set to get 36 F-16C/D Block 50/52 with modern APG-68(V)9 radars.""
> https://timesofislamabad.com/18-Dec...ghter-jets-from-us-upgrade-the-existing-fleet



Old 2006 news, based article. equivalent to fake.


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## Windjammer



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## Trailer23

Funny thing, KhafeeLeaks topic on the F-16 Block 70/72 somehow got _Unblocked_ for just 01 Post, only to have the prehistoric article from the stone-ages posted there.

But hey, we're instead getting Block 52's now .

Only problem is Lockheed Martin doesn't make those jets anymore, but hey, we're still getting Block 52's .


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## StormBreaker

Trailer23 said:


> Funny thing, KhafeeLeaks topic on the F-16 Block 70/72 somehow got _Unblocked_ for just 01 Post, only to have the prehistoric article from the stone-ages posted there.
> 
> But hey, we're instead getting Block 52's now .
> 
> Only problem is Lockheed Martin doesn't make those jets anymore, but hey, we're still getting Block 52's .


I went through the original source site and noticed that the site maintains a full log of similar discussion on a country in same page, propakistani might have mistaken whole page for a single article...



WiderMan said:


> I wouldn't know


Lol


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## aliyusuf

StormBreaker said:


> I went through the original source site and noticed that the site maintains a full log of similar discussion on a country in same page, propakistani might have mistaken whole page for a single article...
> 
> 
> Lol


A little care should have been shown in sharing this ProPakistani site content. It actually did more damage to @Khafee Sahib's narrative then help. It's like when a defense witness turns out to be a dud. It weakens the defense's case.

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## StormBreaker

aliyusuf said:


> A little care should have been shown in sharing this ProPakistani site content. It actually did more damage to @Khafee Sahib's narrative then help. It's like when a defense witness turns out to be a dud. It weakens the defense's case.


I agree, I didn’t do a research on it back from the source article And while posting, i as well quoted the whole article to be incorrect/misinformed.

But getting more F-16s is inevitable, anyone who denies will definitely jump in joy when they receive the deal news.
Besides, some people on this forum as well confirmed it to be a situation above, like mr Tipi who suggested that we are interested in 72 not 70.

And one day, PDF will rewatch the thread about Sir Khafee when the deal actually materialize

InshaAllah

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## Akh1112

I dont understand where this rumor originated from, the article cited clearly is a combination of older articles and then an update. Those upgrades stated had already been installed. Anyway, it makes no sense for Pakistan to go for the F16V/Blk 70, they are absurdly expensive, Looking at the past deals, Bulgaria's Vipers costed them upwards of 1.6 Billion for 5 fighters! of course this includes many other things too, training, equipment, weapons, pods etc, the ecosystem needed for such a fighter, this brings the per unit cost to $340 MILLION! it is absurd, that is the reported cost of 10 thunder block 3's, similar in capability based off of the reported specsheet, the Viper is the wrong way to go, full stop. Hell, even Bahrain's Vipers were expensive, $150 MILLION PER UNIT!


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## Shabi1

The current article is a recycle of the previous deal in which we got the Block-52s. I have no doubt Pakistan will eventually opt for AESA upgrades for its F-16 fleet but it will either be once the Turks come out with their own upgrade package or when rest of the world will be moving onto a possible F-16 Block-80+. If direct from OEM then will depend on when US will release withheld funds since Pakistan will not be in any mood to pay full inflated price out of it's pocket. US cares about its business entities and if LM runs out of F-16 orders then allowing Pakistan soft terms could be an option. Just as PAF is still using vintage Mirages the F-16s are all set to be in the inventory for a very very long time as well.
But *WHEN!* is the big question.


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## Kingslayerr

Quick question if we want to integrate something like an aesa radar into our f-16s from Turkey do we need permission from US?


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## Akh1112

Kingslayerr said:


> Quick question if we want to integrate something like an aesa radar into our f-16s from Turkey do we need permission from US?


Yes.


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## Trailer23

Kingslayerr said:


> Quick question if we want to integrate something like an aesa radar into our f-16s from Turkey do we need permission from US?


Forget AESA...

We would need to get permission to install Air Freshners too.

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## StormBreaker

Trailer23 said:


> Forget AESA...
> 
> We would need to get permission to install Air Freshners too.


BTW, this Audi is lacking Audi cockpit system. Seems like an old model


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## loanranger

PAF F-16 B MLU Block 15 vertical climb by TAI test pilots.

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## araz

Kingslayerr said:


> Quick question if we want to integrate something like an aesa radar into our f-16s from Turkey do we need permission from US?


Yes.



Shabi1 said:


> The current article is a recycle of the previous deal in which we got the Block-52s. I have no doubt Pakistan will eventually opt for AESA upgrades for its F-16 fleet but it will either be once the Turks come out with their own upgrade package or when rest of the world will be moving onto a possible F-16 Block-80+. If direct from OEM then will depend on when US will release withheld funds since Pakistan will not be in any mood to pay full inflated price out of it's pocket. US cares about its business entities and if LM runs out of F-16 orders then allowing Pakistan soft terms could be an option. Just as PAF is still using vintage Mirages the F-16s are all set to be in the inventory for a very very long time as well.
> But *WHEN!* is the big question.


I think it is only going to be possible if US opens our FMF again. Currently there seems no mood within the deep state to do so. Therefore the likelihood of new 16s is remote. For PAF JFT has now achieved a level of maturity and the prospect of ability to incorporate weapons from all over means its value exceeds 16s. So if FMF opens up PAF will go for more 16s.
The likelihood of PAF picking up 16s from open sources also will depend on US willingness. So while Jordan could not sell their fleet to PAF, there maybe other countries where you may succeed. However to me the prospect of getting older variants are higher than getting newer ones. The cash outlays might also favour the latter .
I do not see PAF compromising its upgrade programmes by getting more newer and expensive 16s when the cash is so scarce.
A

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## Akh1112

araz said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> I think it is only going to be possible if US opens our FMF again. Currently there seems no mood within the deep state to do so. Therefore the likelihood of new 16s is remote. For PAF JFT has now achieved a level of maturity and the prospect of ability to incorporate weapons from all over means its value exceeds 16s. So if FMF opens up PAF will go for more 16s.
> The likelihood of PAF picking up 16s from open sources also will depend on US willingness. So while Jordan could not sell their fleet to PAF, there maybe other countries where you may succeed. However to me the prospect of getting older variants are higher than getting newer ones. The cash outlays might also favour the latter .
> I do not see PAF compromising its upgrade programmes by getting more newer and expensive 16s when the cash is so scarce.
> A


The ONLY reason PAF should go for more F-16s is pretty much the AMRAAM, its a combat tested and proven missile unlike most on the market.

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## StormBreaker

araz said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> I think it is only going to be possible if US opens our FMF again. Currently there seems no mood within the deep state to do so. Therefore the likelihood of new 16s is remote. For PAF JFT has now achieved a level of maturity and the prospect of ability to incorporate weapons from all over means its value exceeds 16s. So if FMF opens up PAF will go for more 16s.
> The likelihood of PAF picking up 16s from open sources also will depend on US willingness. So while Jordan could not sell their fleet to PAF, there maybe other countries where you may succeed. However to me the prospect of getting older variants are higher than getting newer ones. The cash outlays might also favour the latter .
> I do not see PAF compromising its upgrade programmes by getting more newer and expensive 16s when the cash is so scarce.
> A


Why does Jordan sell its F-16?


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## Trailer23

Akh1112 said:


> The ONLY reason PAF should go for more F-16s is pretty much the AMRAAM, its a combat tested and proven missile unlike most on the market.


You forgot to mention the *AIM-9 Sidewinder* by Raytheon.


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## Akh1112

Trailer23 said:


> You forgot to mention the *AIM-9 Sidewinder* by Raytheon.



eh, IR missiles arent as hard to perfect as BVRAAM's, Denel's A-Darter is probably far superior to our current AIM-9L/M


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## Trailer23

Akh1112 said:


> eh, IR missiles arent as hard to perfect as BVRAAM's, Denel's A-Darter is probably far superior to our current AIM-9L/M


Perhaps, but the A-Darter can't be fitted on the F-16.

Besides, the Aim-9 has new variant and its classes.
Aim-9X
Aim-9X (Block II)
Aim-9X (Block III)


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## Akh1112

Trailer23 said:


> Perhaps, but the A-Darter can't be fitted on the F-16.
> 
> Besides, the Aim-9 has new variant and its classes.
> Aim-9X
> Aim-9X (Block II)
> Aim-9X (Block III)



Yes but for IR WVRAAMs we shouldnt need to rely on the F-16 as we can find alternatives unlike a proven AIM120 alternative. Yes there are new AIM-9's however we do not have access to them.


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## Trailer23

Akh1112 said:


> Yes but for IR WVRAAMs we shouldnt need to rely on the F-16 as we can find alternatives unlike a proven AIM120 alternative. Yes there are new AIM-9's however we do not have access to them.


Well we don't have access to F-16 either. So that itself is a conversation ender.

If we get access to new F-16's, it opens doors to other goodies - including the Sidewinders (too).

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## araz

StormBreaker said:


> Why does Jordan sell its F-16?


I suspect Jordan is a conduit through which the US bypasses Congress and sells second hand fighters. If you remember previously AH1Fs were also routed through Jordan. Whatever they sell they are replenished from US/EU stock by the US.
A



Akh1112 said:


> The ONLY reason PAF should go for more F-16s is pretty much the AMRAAM, its a combat tested and proven missile unlike most on the market.


While I agree that Amraams are cerygood and combat proven the SD series is upto the mark with figures in the ball park. The L15?? will fulfill our needs and its range is going to be more than the AMRAAMs which we have. So PAF is going to bypass the need for AMRAAMs which removes a hige bargaining tool from the US hands. LD10 and A Darter once inducted will supplement the use of the 9X which the US has steadfastly refused to sellto Paklands
A

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## Akh1112

araz said:


> I suspect Jordan is a conduit through which the US bypasses Congress and sells second hand fighters. If you remember previously AH1Fs were also routed through Jordan. Whatever they sell they are replenished from US/EU stock by the US.
> A
> 
> 
> While I agree that Amraams are cerygood and combat proven the SD series is upto the mark with figures in the ball park. The L15?? will fulfill our needs and its range is going to be more than the AMRAAMs which we have. So PAF is going to bypass the need for AMRAAMs which removes a hige bargaining tool from the US hands. LD10 and A Darter once inducted will supplement the use of the 9X which the US has steadfastly refused to sellto Paklands
> A


The issue is Russian missiles usually dont perform as stated, we dont know whether this is the case with China too, it is highly likely their export variants are significantly gimped in terms of performance compared to their native version, however, this isnt the case with the AMRAAM. Also, the AMRAAM is combat tested unlike the Chinese competition

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## JPMM

araz said:


> I suspect Jordan is a conduit through which the US bypasses Congress and sells second hand fighters. If you remember previously AH1Fs were also routed through Jordan. Whatever they sell they are replenished from US/EU stock by the US.
> A
> 
> 
> While I agree that Amraams are cerygood and combat proven the SD series is upto the mark with figures in the ball park. The L15?? will fulfill our needs and its range is going to be more than the AMRAAMs which we have. So PAF is going to bypass the need for AMRAAMs which removes a hige bargaining tool from the US hands. LD10 and A Darter once inducted will supplement the use of the 9X which the US has steadfastly refused to sellto Paklands
> A


They do the same with Portuguese F16s to Europe, we dont sell only the operated ones, they keep sending us fresh ones from AMARC.

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## Windjammer



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## Trailer23

I think the image (above) is from last years song '_Wardi_'. I might have used the clip on a couple of past Edits.

I'm almost certain its in my (new) upcoming 2020 Video Edit.


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## Windjammer



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## Incog_nito

Is PAF looking to acquire 22/32 new F-16s to complement the current Blk-52s and upgrade for Blk-52s to Blk-72s.


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## Ali_Baba

IM Ozair said:


> Is PAF looking to acquire 22/32 new F-16s to complement the current Blk-52s and upgrade for Blk-52s to Blk-72s.



I think Pakistan is waiting for the AH-1Zs to turn up....  ...

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## Akh1112

IM Ozair said:


> Is PAF looking to acquire 22/32 new F-16s to complement the current Blk-52s and upgrade for Blk-52s to Blk-72s.


where is your source? I have noticed alot of misinformation being spread here

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## Armchair

I doubt Pak will get f16s after block 3. But if the US can be squeezed in AFG and for supply lines, use of roads, road toll, pollution tax, security provision and provision of tea, they may just sell you some used f16s. 
Americans are cheapos. They would rather give their old junk than hard currency.

The atta after pressler should have taught us that. Was dark and heavy and soily. I remember eating that shit.

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## airomerix

Armchair said:


> I doubt Pak will get f16s after block 3. But if the US can be squeezed in AFG and for supply lines, use of roads, road toll, pollution tax, security provision and provision of tea, they may just sell you some used f16s.
> Americans are cheapos. They would rather give their old junk than hard currency.
> 
> *The atta after pressler should have taught us that. Was dark and heavy and soily. I remember eating that shit.*



Hillarious

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## mingle

airomerix said:


> Hillarious


I believe Pak should use hardcore Diplomacy for F35 through CSF money along V upgrades I Beleive money they owe Us would be sufficient.


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## StormBreaker

MastanKhan said:


> @waz,
> 
> The breaking out ceremony of the 10-12 BLK B the 2 seaters standing in a row and the cell phone picture of the BLK 3 nose within a few hours of each other---the induction of the Jordanian F16's.
> 
> That was a monstrosity in itself---when you put out 2/3rd of a sqdrn of a brand new type of aircraft in one go---and a sqdrn of F16 all in i day on different occasions---.
> 
> It is like pulling out 1 and 2/3 of a heavy strike division of military force instantly out of nowhere---.
> 
> You are standing face to face against the enemy force---your 50000 troops against the enemy's 100000 troops---looking eye to eye---the enemy confident of its numbers---your soldiers showing concern---but your commanders know something different---.
> 
> And then suddenly you see a cloud of dust arising from behind of you---the necks are stretching---the enemy looks keenly---your troops look at what is happening---your commander sit straighter on their horses---already knowing what is coming---and as they get close---coming thru the dust clouds---the enemy starts noticing the colors that the new comers are flying---and its heart sinks down to the floor and it feels the bowels getting loose and its knees suddenly going weak and it starts to see dark circles of defeat in front of its eye---.
> 
> Why---because the enemy is looking at a 1-2/3 of a heavy strike division appear out of nowhere to compliment your forces---.
> 
> Pakistan Zindabad



What F-16s were you referring to in the other thread sir ?

Did we get more from Jordan ?

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## MastanKhan

StormBreaker said:


> What F-16s were you referring to in the other thread sir ?
> 
> Did we get more from Jordan ?



Hi,

No---I am talking about the original delivery of Jordanian aircraft----.

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## Windjammer



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## StormBreaker

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 597130


What do the pilots say about the single piece canopy of F-16s compared to Thunders having 2 units


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## Windjammer

StormBreaker said:


> What do the pilots say about the single piece canopy of F-16s compared to Thunders having 2 units


Many of them are used to four-piece canopies of the Mirage and F-7Ps.

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## Akh1112

mingle said:


> I believe Pak should use hardcore Diplomacy for F35 through CSF money along V upgrades I Beleive money they owe Us would be sufficient.




We havent even got out AH1Z yet and you want to talk about F35s...


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## Adam_Khan

Nothing can match the beauty of the viper.

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## jupiter2007

mingle said:


> I believe Pak should use hardcore Diplomacy for F35 through CSF money along V upgrades I Beleive money they owe Us would be sufficient.



You are using “diplomacy” and “hardcore” in one sentence. There is no hardcore diplomacy when we have master slave relationship. Our General and politicians have sold their zamir for $$$. I have already told you story about how Generals wife get free shopping done and how gift are sent back in C-130 to Pakistan from USA. How come Generals children get free education in top American universities. Also why USA/Pentagon wanted to hire retired General Kayani as a consultant?
As far as F-35 is concerned, it will never come to Pakistan. There are 2 factors, China and India. They don’t want to give us anything more advance than India airforce and they don’t want China to take a peak into it.

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## blain2

"How come Generals children get free education in top American universities."

What is the factual basis for this assertion?


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## StormBreaker

Adam_Khan said:


> View attachment 597197
> Nothing can match the beauty of the viper.


I repeat nothing !!!!








But this one does give a competition !!!

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## mingle

jupiter2007 said:


> You are using “diplomacy” and “hardcore” in one sentence. There is no hardcore diplomacy when we have master slave relationship. Our General and politicians have sold their zamir for $$$. I have already told you story about how Generals wife get free shopping done and how gift are sent back in C-130 to Pakistan from USA. How come Generals children get free education in top American universities. Also why USA/Pentagon wanted to hire retired General Kayani as a consultant?
> As far as F-35 is concerned, it will never come to Pakistan. There are 2 factors, China and India. They don’t want to give us anything more advance than India airforce and they don’t want China to take a peak into it.


Dude when we got F16s in 80s they were top notch and when blk 52 they were latest Chinese factor was there then and now its won't be an issue like blk 52s.

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## khanasifm

blain2 said:


> "How come Generals children get free education in top American universities."
> 
> What is the factual basis for this assertion?



Why can I not ignore a staff member ???? 

Need to update the list please advise


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## jupiter2007

mingle said:


> Dude when we got F16s in 80s they were top notch and when blk 52 they were latest Chinese factor was there then and now its won't be an issue like blk 52s.



It doesn't matter, time have changed. We can't compare F16 sale to F-35.


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## mingle

jupiter2007 said:


> It doesn't matter, time have changed. We can't compare F16 sale to F-35.


F16 blk 72 is not less than F35 time has not changed they owe us money CSF. I believe it would be clear this yr and it would be spend in Arms procurement.


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## araz

mingle said:


> F16 blk 72 is not less than F35 time has not changed they owe us money CSF. I believe it would be clear this yr and it would be spend in Arms procurement.


I dont see a single penny of this money coming our way short of second hand hand me down 16s or perhaps if we are lucky the AH1Zs.

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## jupiter2007

mingle said:


> F16 blk 72 is not less than F35 time has not changed they owe us money CSF. I believe it would be clear this yr and it would be spend in Arms procurement.



USA government has blocked the release of Bell AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters which were built for Pakistan. Currently these helicopters are stored in Amarillo Texas. USA government also block the engine sale to Pakistan for T129 ATAK helicopter deal with Turkey. Do you think they will sell F-35 to Pakistan? One things is for sure, there will be NO F-35 for Pakistan in next 10 to 15 years.

USA is a super power, no one can force them to pay CSF fund to Pakistan. If they agree to pay CSF fund, we can request new F-16 but It doesn't mean that they will sell us those. If USA agreed to sell F-16, it will probably be scale down version with lower end radar, etc.

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## Armchair

Close their air and land route to AFG and see how fast they pay. Stupid liberal chamcha babus should always have made it a pay first service. Truth is fear of the US is fake reality is key people have their children and money in the US getting benefit under the counter. 

Then there is the open secret that the US does psychological warfare on the military men sent for "training" giving them all kinds of brainwashing, creating the servile mindset that is so prevalent in top ranks for the last 2 decades.

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## Windjammer

*
Licenced To Kill Any Aggressor.
*

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## mingle

jupiter2007 said:


> USA government has blocked the release of Bell AH-1Z Viper attack helicopters which were built for Pakistan. Currently these helicopters are stored in Amarillo Texas. USA government also block the engine sale to Pakistan for T129 ATAK helicopter deal with Turkey. Do you think they will sell F-35 to Pakistan? One things is for sure, there will be on F-35 for Pakistan in next 10 to 15 years.
> 
> USA is a super power, no one can force them to pay CSF fund to Pakistan. If they agree to pay CSF fund, we can request new F-16 but It doesn't mean that they will sell us those. If USA agreed to sell F-16, it will probably be scale down version with lower end radar, etc.


AH1z is coming this Year. US never stoped tech to Pak these F16s blk 52 were top notch according to PAF needs. US is super power but it does not mean arrogance or law of jungle they said they will release CSF this yr beacuse last yr budget there were no mention for Pak they have to make a amendment or next yr budget allocations. We will get from US all we desire.



araz said:


> I dont see a single penny of this money coming our way short of second hand hand me down 16s or perhaps if we are lucky the AH1Zs.


All penny's will come out its our money wait and see

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## Imran Khan

mingle said:


> AH1z is coming this Year. US never stoped tech to Pak these F16s blk 52 were top notch according to PAF needs. US is super power but it does not mean arrogance or law of jungle they said they will release CSF this yr beacuse last yr budget there were no mention for Pak they have to make a amendment or next yr budget allocations. We will get from US all we desire.
> 
> 
> All penny's will come out its our money wait and see




sir where are these f-16 today????? we paid for them in 1988 and they were made for pakistan . ohhh sorry they are serving in USN today

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## araz

mingle said:


> AH1z is coming this Year. US never stoped tech to Pak these F16s blk 52 were top notch according to PAF needs. US is super power but it does not mean arrogance or law of jungle they said they will release CSF this yr beacuse last yr budget there were no mention for Pak they have to make a amendment or next yr budget allocations. We will get from US all we desire.
> 
> 
> All penny's will come out its our money wait and see


This is an opinion you and I have shared. Let us see who turns out to be right. I will be happy if you are right though.
A

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## jupiter2007

Some people have too much time for dreams but reality is different.


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## Imran Khan

jupiter2007 said:


> Some people have too much time for dreams but reality is different.


those whom have dreams of USA always its turn nightmare . i can believe if some one say china will transfer j-20 to pakistan but i can not believe USA will sale more f-16 to pakistan until they arrived .USA se umeed lagany waly hameesha end main roty hain

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## mingle

Imran Khan said:


> sir where are these f-16 today????? we paid for them in 1988 and they were made for pakistan . ohhh sorry they are serving in USN today
> 
> View attachment 597428


Khan sb time keep changing and will not remain same they committed mistake and they admitted it I don't see happens again also Economics situation in Pak is picking Up gradually every one wil want his share of pie.

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## denel

Imran Khan said:


> those whom have dreams of USA always its turn nightmare . i can believe if some one say china will transfer j-20 to pakistan but i can not believe USA will sale more f-16 to pakistan until they arrived .USA se umeed lagany waly hameesha end main roty hain


I do concur, unless we see it; we will not pay any heed to rumours that were started earlier as well as on Su's.

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## Imran Khan

mingle said:


> Khan sb time keep changing and will not remain same they committed mistake and they admitted it I don't see happens again also Economics situation in Pak is picking Up gradually every one wil want his share of pie.


lolllz 
sir ji nothing is changed dont you remeber in 2000s USA said we will nto leave you alone hahahahahah and then they leave us alone once again . BTW where are these F-16 ?
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-jets-from-us-report/articleshow/51407397.cms


USA is doing same since 1948 and our people are doing also same . nothing changed .i am surprised how you are saying it while 10 f-16 cancels USN did not release our f-16 and our AH1Z rusting in AMRAG today . where is change janab ? pakistan should stick with china and forget USA forever . if i been ruler of pakistan for just one day i will kick out - India - Bangladesh - Afghanistan - USA from pakistan and close their missions with in 24 hours ,

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## jupiter2007

Imran Khan said:


> those whom have dreams of USA always its turn nightmare . i can believe if some one say china will transfer j-20 to pakistan but i can not believe USA will sale more f-16 to pakistan until they arrived .USA se umeed lagany waly hameesha end main roty hain



Pakistan has already requested surplus F-16s from USA, and Trump might consider selling them from it’s inventory or allow sale from another country. Let’s wait unit June 2020 and see what comes out of it.


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## mingle

jupiter2007 said:


> Pakistan has already requested surplus F-16s from USA, and Trump might consider selling them from it’s inventory or allow sale from another country. Let’s wait unit June 2020 and see what comes out of it.


They won't release surplus unless Pak go for new ones as well. New ones where money and jobs plus Tax for US not old ones keep watching if old ones will come? New ones too

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## khanasifm

mingle said:


> They won't release surplus unless Pak go for new ones as well. New ones where money and jobs plus Tax for US not old ones keep watching if old ones will come? New ones too



Why wait till June ??
What special about June ?

The only reason f-16 used one are requested as price is ideal 10-20 million you get a plane with 3000-4000 hour life plus in future can be canabalized as well to maintain exiting inventory

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> Why wait till June ??
> What special about June ?
> 
> The only reason f-16 used one are requested as price is ideal 10-20 million you get a plane with 3000-4000 hour life plus in future can be canabalized as well to maintain exiting inventory


One thing may be Get good used Airframes and make all of them V upgraded it is possible.
I didn't said June but my argument is last time Mush era Pak asked for used Airframes from Belgiam but US didn't allow her request was rejected by Colin Powell but later they asked for purchase new one along used Airframes. Its business after all new plane more profit jobs taxes used plane nothing for vendors and US yes cheaper for Pak.


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## jupiter2007

khanasifm said:


> Why wait till June ??
> What special about June ?
> 
> The only reason f-16 used one are requested as price is ideal 10-20 million you get a plane with 3000-4000 hour life plus in future can be canabalized as well to maintain exiting inventory



There are few things happening in the background because of the Afghanistan peace process. Trump has six months to resolve and pull the troops from Afghanistan. If all worked out, we might see a good new by June 2020.

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## Readerdefence

jupiter2007 said:


> Pakistan has already requested surplus F-16s from USA, and Trump might consider selling them from it’s inventory or allow sale from another country. Let’s wait unit June 2020 and see what comes out of it.


Hi jupiter2007 I hope you will consider and keep in mind about the next coming elections for us president just round the corner I don’t think any of the current or any other candidate take a risk of giving or releasing any kind of fund or arms transfer specially to Pakistan 
As you can imagine how strong are Indians around the senate or around US president beside the Indians they will use the Jewish lobby also against Pakistan for their interest 
Just a thought 
Thank you

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## denel

jupiter2007 said:


> There are few things happening in the background because of the Afghanistan peace process. Trump has six months to resolve and pull the troops from Afghanistan. If all worked out, we might see a good new by June 2020.


Lets see, if it does come it will be with too much baggage; is it worth it strategically - no. As i said before pak is in the driver seat for any f-16s; blk3 delivers better capabilities than even the older ones and hence Indian wooohaaahaa crocodile tears is mute at this point. But in my opinion TiT has too much burning his backside that he would want to jeopardise curry muncher lobbyists for upcoming elections.



Readerdefence said:


> Hi jupiter2007 I hope you will consider and keep in mind about the next coming elections for us president just round the corner I don’t think any of the current or any other candidate take a risk of giving or releasing any kind of fund or arms transfer specially to Pakistan
> As you can imagine how strong are Indians around the senate or around US president beside the Indians they will use the Jewish lobby also against Pakistan for their interest
> Just a thought
> Thank you


Actually not the Jewish lobby please; indian are now a lobby force on their own.

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## GriffinsRule

Imran Khan said:


> sir where are these f-16 today????? we paid for them in 1988 and they were made for pakistan . ohhh sorry they are serving in USN today
> 
> View attachment 597428


We got their replacements from Jordan.

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## Imran Khan

GriffinsRule said:


> We got their replacements from Jordan.


really ? can you please explain sir ? as i know we paid to jordan for those absulate falcons


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## GriffinsRule

Imran Khan said:


> really ? can you please explain sir ? as i know we paid to jordan for those absulate falcons


Simply put, PAF got half of the originally embargoed fleet from USAF. USN didn't want to part with the 14 aircraft that went to them for serve as aggressors, so the US allowed the sale/transfer of block 15 ADFs from Jordan instead, and in return, Jordan got MLU'ed F-16s from Europe.


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## syed_yusuf

B


GriffinsRule said:


> Simply put, PAF got half of the originally embargoed fleet from USAF. USN didn't want to part with the 14 aircraft that went to them for serve as aggressors, so the US allowed the sale/transfer of block 15 ADFs from Jordan instead, and in return, Jordan got MLU'ed F-16s from Europe.


But we paid for Jordanian falcons


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## jupiter2007

Armchair said:


> Close their air and land route to AFG and see how fast they pay. Stupid liberal chamcha babus should always have made it a pay first service. Truth is fear of the US is fake reality is key people have their children and money in the US getting benefit under the counter.
> 
> Then there is the open secret that the US does psychological warfare on the military men sent for "training" giving them all kinds of brainwashing, creating the servile mindset that is so prevalent in top ranks for the last 2 decades.



There are multiple factors. 

Do you want to mess with supper power of the world.
USA is also our biggest trade partner. We export 35% of our goods to USA.
They control IMF
They control FTAF
They can force ME puppet governments to stop selling Cheap oil to Pakistan

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## MIRauf

Pak / BB settled for soybeans, $700+ Million was repaid in supplies to Pak. If you don't like the outcome then please take it up with BB for accepting the soybeans, US delivered the 14 odd used by USAF Aggressor. The ones used by USN were flown like no tomorrow and were prone to sea water corrosion, thus PAF didn't pursue to hard on them, a wise move. The 14 odd from USAF were returned to PAF as gift / goodwill gesture in a sense ( kiss and makeup. )



Imran Khan said:


> really ? can you please explain sir ? as i know we paid to jordan for those absulate falcons



Did you mean to write "obsolete ?" if that is the case then you are Blinded by your hate / anger, sir. Those Ex-Jordanian F-16 can / will Bitc. Slap the IAF ( M2k / Mig-28 / Su-30 ) any day of the week, day or night.

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## jupiter2007

mingle said:


> AH1z is coming this Year. US never stoped tech to Pak these F16s blk 52 were top notch according to PAF needs. US is super power but it does not mean arrogance or law of jungle they said they will release CSF this yr beacuse last yr budget there were no mention for Pak they have to make a amendment or next yr budget allocations. We will get from US all we desire.
> 
> 
> All penny's will come out its our money wait and see



It is completely waste if time responding to you. I am responding just to clear few things.

AH1z Will come if and when USA decide to release them. *This is not in our control.*
USA is obligated to support our F-16s. F-16s require regular maintenance/parts. They will continue to support F-16s unless they impose sections on us.

As far as Block 50/52, Lockheed Martin already had block 60 in production at that time. Now they have block 70/72 and they are already working on next upgrade.
Even when Funds are released, Pakistan can request but it’s up to USA (Trump/Congress/Pentagon) to approve it. I can assure you that there will be NO F-35 coming to Pakistan in next 10 to 15 years. Even chance of block 72 is pretty slim.
Pakistan might be able to acquire Older/surplus F-16s but that depends on the Afghanistan peace process, Time between June to September is very important. Trump will be doing his re-election campaign. If some kind of agreement is signed by all parties then we will get 18 to 24 Older F-16s. If the peace process is delayed then we will have to wait until 2021.

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## mingle

jupiter2007 said:


> It is completely waste if time responding to you. I am responding just to clear few things.
> 
> AH1z Will come if and when USA decide to release them. *This is not in our control.*
> USA is obligated to support our F-16s. F-16s require regular maintenance/parts. They will continue to support F-16s unless they impose sections on us.
> 
> As far as Block 50/52, Lockheed Martin already had block 60 in production at that time. Now they have block 70/72 and they are already working on next upgrade.
> Even when Funds are released, Pakistan can request but it’s up to USA (Trump/Congress/Pentagon) to approve it. I can assure you that there will be NO F-35 coming to Pakistan in next 10 to 15 years. Even chance of block 72 is pretty slim.
> Pakistan might be able to acquire Older/surplus F-16s but that depends on the Afghanistan peace process, Time between June to September is very important. Trump will be doing his re-election campaign. If some kind of agreement is signed by all parties then we will get 18 to 24 Older F-16s. If the peace process is delayed then we will have to wait until 2021.


U better not but don't lecture me pretending be Henry kessinger.


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## Windjammer

Along With Fantastic Tea, PAF is preparing to serve some Gola Kebab as well.

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## StormBreaker

Windjammer said:


> Along With Fantastic Tea, PAF is preparing to serve some Gola Kebab as well.


Are those ARMs ?


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## Windjammer

StormBreaker said:


> Are those ARMs ?


AMRAAMS.


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## StormBreaker

Windjammer said:


> AMRAAMS.


No, the ones underneath


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## Windjammer

StormBreaker said:


> No, the ones underneath


No they are Lima rounds and drop tanks.

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## Haris Ali2140

Windjammer said:


> No they are Lima rounds and drop tanks.


He is talking about the AIM ones next to AAMRAMS.


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## Windjammer

Haris Ali2140 said:


> He is talking about the AIM ones next to AAMRAMS.


No he asked if they were ARMs.


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## StormBreaker

Windjammer said:


> AMRAAMS.


Ohh, sorry, couldn’t see it earlier, AIM-9 that is


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## MastanKhan

Enjoy the info

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

jupiter2007 said:


> It is completely waste if time responding to you. I am responding just to clear few things.
> 
> AH1z Will come if and when USA decide to release them. *This is not in our control.*
> USA is obligated to support our F-16s. F-16s require regular maintenance/parts. They will continue to support F-16s unless they impose sections on us.
> 
> As far as Block 50/52, Lockheed Martin already had block 60 in production at that time. Now they have block 70/72 and they are already working on next upgrade.
> Even when Funds are released, Pakistan can request but it’s up to USA (Trump/Congress/Pentagon) to approve it. I can assure you that there will be NO F-35 coming to Pakistan in next 10 to 15 years. Even chance of block 72 is pretty slim.
> Pakistan might be able to acquire Older/surplus F-16s but that depends on the Afghanistan peace process, Time between June to September is very important. Trump will be doing his re-election campaign. If some kind of agreement is signed by all parties then we will get 18 to 24 Older F-16s. If the peace process is delayed then we will have to wait until 2021.


IMO ... Pakistan will not pay for American equipment from its own resources. We have too little money to put it at risk in a country with a proven history of literally breaking its contracts with us. So, any US equipment we do toy with, it'll either be of very low monetary value (e.g., M4s), or through FMF/CSF.

That being said, I would rather we put any FMF/CSF money we do get towards new C-130s. In this case, there's a higher shot of not only getting those planes, but -- under the banner of HADR, SAR, etc -- getting more subsidies for them. It's easier to sell "helping Pakistan with enhancing its humanitarian assistance capabilities" than AH-1Zs and F-16s. Finally, the PAF actually needs the C-130s, and there aren't any as-good alternatives at that price. 

$2 billion US in CSF/FMF can go a long way for the PAF by keeping the current 16 C-130B/Es flying longer, and add another 8-10 new-build C-130Js. In fact, with a little PR greasing, the PAF could possibly get a total of 16 C-130Js through US financial support, which could come willingly for HADR/SAR/PSO, etc.

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## jupiter2007

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... Pakistan will not pay for American equipment from its own resources. We have too little money to put it at risk in a country with a proven history of literally breaking its contracts with us. So, any US equipment we do toy with, it'll either be of very low monetary value (e.g., M4s), or through FMF/CSF.
> 
> That being said, I would rather we put any FMF/CSF money we do get towards new C-130s. In this case, there's a higher shot of not only getting those planes, but -- under the banner of HADR, SAR, etc -- getting more subsidies for them. It's easier to sell "helping Pakistan with enhancing its humanitarian assistance capabilities" than AH-1Zs and F-16s. Finally, the PAF actually needs the C-130s, and there aren't any as-good alternatives at that price.
> 
> $2 billion US in CSF/FMF can go a long way for the PAF by keeping the current 16 C-130B/Es flying longer, and add another 8-10 new-build C-130Js. In fact, with a little PR greasing, the PAF could possibly get a total of 16 C-130Js through US financial support, which could come willingly for HADR/SAR/PSO, etc.



I can understand your point but some stupid people are saying that we can request F-35 and USA will have to give it us because they own 2 billion dollars for Coalition Support Funds. 

For future sales to Pakistan, USA will allow FMF and CSF can be used for it.

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## PakFactor

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... Pakistan will not pay for American equipment from its own resources. We have too little money to put it at risk in a country with a proven history of literally breaking its contracts with us. So, any US equipment we do toy with, it'll either be of very low monetary value (e.g., M4s), or through FMF/CSF.
> 
> That being said, I would rather we put any FMF/CSF money we do get towards new C-130s. In this case, there's a higher shot of not only getting those planes, but -- under the banner of HADR, SAR, etc -- getting more subsidies for them. It's easier to sell "helping Pakistan with enhancing its humanitarian assistance capabilities" than AH-1Zs and F-16s. Finally, the PAF actually needs the C-130s, and there aren't any as-good alternatives at that price.
> 
> $2 billion US in CSF/FMF can go a long way for the PAF by keeping the current 16 C-130B/Es flying longer, and add another 8-10 new-build C-130Js. In fact, with a little PR greasing, the PAF could possibly get a total of 16 C-130Js through US financial support, which could come willingly for HADR/SAR/PSO, etc.



Isn’t their any Chinese alternatives to C-130s? I mean even those wouldn’t be sanctions prone.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

PakFactor said:


> Isn’t their any Chinese alternatives to C-130s? I mean even those wouldn’t be sanctions prone.


There are nominal alternatives, yes, but the PAF has already flown the Y-8 (KE/ZDK03) and clearly didn't pursue it any further as of yet. It's not just China though. There are 'options' all over the place, from the Embraer C-390 to Ukraine's stuff, but time and time again I hear, "only a Herc can replace a Herc." It's like HMD/S -- there's this one company that did such an excellent job with a design, that design is the preferred option.

I'm against US arms, but there are 2 exceptions I'd make: the Herc and the Chinook. 

You just won't get the bang for the buck, flexibility, and worldwide support in any other platform. If not for the US' reluctance, the F-16 and S-70 would be in the list too.

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO ... Pakistan will not pay for American equipment from its own resources. We have too little money to put it at risk in a country with a proven history of literally breaking its contracts with us. So, any US equipment we do toy with, it'll either be of very low monetary value (e.g., M4s), or through FMF/CSF.
> 
> That being said, I would rather we put any FMF/CSF money we do get towards new C-130s. In this case, there's a higher shot of not only getting those planes, but -- under the banner of HADR, SAR, etc -- getting more subsidies for them. It's easier to sell "helping Pakistan with enhancing its humanitarian assistance capabilities" than AH-1Zs and F-16s. Finally, the PAF actually needs the C-130s, and there aren't any as-good alternatives at that price.
> 
> $2 billion US in CSF/FMF can go a long way for the PAF by keeping the current 16 C-130B/Es flying longer, and add another 8-10 new-build C-130Js. In fact, with a little PR greasing, the PAF could possibly get a total of 16 C-130Js through US financial support, which could come willingly for HADR/SAR/PSO, etc.



Hi,

That is what surprised me at that time---. The temperature in the US was not in favor of the US---and I was wondering why the Paf is asking for something it is not going to get---and then the pakistani public is going to get mad at the US and Paf will get an egg on its face---.

Basically---if you cannot make the sale to the US public---then why put the US govt on the back foot---why create problems for them---.

That F16 fiasco was purely made by the Paf due to its arrogance and ignorance of not understanding the ground realities---.

If the US public was going against pakistan---then the Paf should have countered the american public's narrative hard and strong---.

The Paf left the arena making pakistan look guilty---.

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## jupiter2007

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is what surprised me at that time---. The temperature in the US was not in favor of the US---and I was wondering why the Paf is asking for something it is not going to get---and then the pakistani public is going to get mad at the US and Paf will get an egg on its face---.
> 
> Basically---if you cannot make the sale to the US public---then why put the US govt on the back foot---why create problems for them---.
> 
> That F16 fiasco was purely made by the Paf due to its arrogance and ignorance of not understanding the ground realities---.
> 
> If the US public was going against pakistan---then the Paf should have countered the american public's narrative hard and strong---.
> 
> The Paf left the arena making pakistan look guilty---.




Did you say "US public"? Why would they care about Pakistan? Most of Americans don't even know what continent Pakistan is in. There are only 3 decision makers, President, Congress and Pentagon. Public doesn't have anything to do with foreign military sales.

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## Haris Ali2140

jupiter2007 said:


> Did you say "US public"? Why would they care about Pakistan? Most of Americans don't even know what continent Pakistan is in. There are only 3 decision makers, President, Congress and Pentagon. Public doesn't have anything to do with foreign military sales.


I think he is talking about influencing the senators.


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## MastanKhan

jupiter2007 said:


> Did you say "US public"? Why would they care about Pakistan? Most of Americans don't even know what continent Pakistan is in. There are only 3 decision makers, President, Congress and Pentagon. Public doesn't have anything to do with foreign military sales.



Hi,

Now may I call you less informed about the US and how it works---? The sanctions on pakistan are coming from the US public.

100 letters and 20 phone calls from well off important public figures to their congressmen / senators starts the ball rolling against pakistan---.

How do you think we got the sanctions against india for H1 visa---stopping visas for indians---I myself wrote to my state senators and got an answer that they were looking into it---.

A million times I have explained this phenomenon on this forum in how to work the US govt---and yet thick heads can't get it thru their heads.

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## mingle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is what surprised me at that time---. The temperature in the US was not in favor of the US---and I was wondering why the Paf is asking for something it is not going to get---and then the pakistani public is going to get mad at the US and Paf will get an egg on its face---.
> 
> Basically---if you cannot make the sale to the US public---then why put the US govt on the back foot---why create problems for them---.
> 
> That F16 fiasco was purely made by the Paf due to its arrogance and ignorance of not understanding the ground realities---.
> 
> If the US public was going against pakistan---then the Paf should have countered the american public's narrative hard and strong---.
> 
> The Paf left the arena making pakistan look guilty---.


Diplomacy and PR two words

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

In the US---the congressman is the weakest link---because he is elected every two years---and it is not like pakistan---where he can run for re-election from another location---.

They are like a tall tree in the wind---bending over with the wind---.

Now this strike in iraq---the president did not do it---he was influenced by the anti iran lobby which pushed him in that direction---. The US president works with the lobby group---unless it gets to be a critical decision & the lobby groups are smart---very smart---they will accept a NO at the time to get a bigger Yes the next time.

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## jupiter2007

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In the US---the congressman is the weakest link---because he is elected every two years---and it is not like pakistan---where he can run for re-election from another location---.
> 
> They are like a tall tree in the wind---bending over with the wind---.
> 
> Now this strike in iraq---the president did not do it---he was influenced by the anti iran lobby which pushed him in that direction---. The US president works with the lobby group---unless it gets to be a critical decision & the lobby groups are smart---very smart---they will accept a NO at the time to get a bigger Yes the next time.




“the congressman is the weakest link---because he is elected every two years”

Lol


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## MastanKhan

jupiter2007 said:


> “the congressman is the weakest link---because he is elected every two years”
> 
> Lol



See---that is how democracy keeps them straight---. Elections every two years and and can only run for elections from one seat---that is declared as there formal primary place of residence on their tax returns---.


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## jupiter2007

MastanKhan said:


> See---that is how democracy keeps them straight---. Elections every two years and and can only run for elections from one seat---that is declared as there formal primary place of residence on their tax returns---.



I am in DC, I know how USA government works. It’s a 4 years term and mid year election. For example election is done on half the seats of House of Representatives and another half in 2 years.

Pakistan can also do that if they bring presidential system with 6 years terms. Election on half of the MNA seats every 3 years and only allow person to run from his home Constituency which mean candidates must declare their home constituency when submitting their paper work to be considered as a candidate by election commission. 
Why 6 years term and why election every 3 years? Every 2 years will be costly because conducting election is not cheap.

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## jupiter2007

F-16V

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## Windjammer

Adam_Khan said:


> View attachment 597197
> Nothing can match the beauty of the viper.








I believe this is one of those F-16s that PAF acquired from Jordan as these aircraft have some distinctive writing or pattern on the bay door of the front landing gear.... and then we had some folks arguing that our Jordanian aircraft didn't have the BVR capability.

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## Viper27

Windjammer said:


> I believe this is one of those F-16s that PAF acquired from Jordan as these aircraft have some distinctive writing or pattern on the bay door of the front landing gear.... and then we had some folks arguing that our Jordanian aircraft didn't have the BVR capability.



Surprised that people assume Jordanian Vipers are not BVR capable. It’s no secret that the batch of Jordanian F-16s we have were initially Air National Guard units & were designed specifically for long range air to air missions with the ability to carry 6 AMRAAMs

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## Haris Ali2140

jupiter2007 said:


> F-16V
> View attachment 597999


Force these to land at a PAF base.

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> I believe this is one of those F-16s that PAF acquired from Jordan as these aircraft have some distinctive writing or pattern on the bay door of the front landing gear.... and then we had some folks arguing that our Jordanian aircraft didn't have the BVR capability.


Nope its an F-16 AM assigned to Arrows and the writing says "Top Guns"

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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> Nope its an F-16 AM assigned to Arrows and the writing says "Top Guns"


Oh well, but as you can see No 19 Birds also have something on the bay door.

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## FuturePAF

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There are nominal alternatives, yes, but the PAF has already flown the Y-8 (KE/ZDK03) and clearly didn't pursue it any further as of yet. It's not just China though. There are 'options' all over the place, from the Embraer C-390 to Ukraine's stuff, but time and time again I hear, "only a Herc can replace a Herc." It's like HMD/S -- there's this one company that did such an excellent job with a design, that design is the preferred option.
> 
> I'm against US arms, but there are 2 exceptions I'd make: the Herc and the Chinook.
> 
> You just won't get the bang for the buck, flexibility, and worldwide support in any other platform. If not for the US' reluctance, the F-16 and S-70 would be in the list too.



How about a large sale (using CSF) of a few thousand MRAPs and associated COIN equipment for the KPK And Baluchistan Frontier Corps? It builds up Pakistan’s ability to police its western borders, and that’s win win for Pakistan and the West.

Under that narrative, logistical support equipment like C-130s, and even helicopters like the Chinook will clearly not look like they will effect the Indo-Pak equation. Used F-16s also can fit into this nicely, as they will be geared towards COIN-PGM capabilities. Except of Pakistan try’s to seek used F-16s it should go for the maximum number of airframes, so that it can cannibalize them in the event of a shut off of spares. These F-16s flying with AESA equipped JF-17s maybe a way to maximize the numbers and capabilities within t limited amount of CSF funds, and not rock the boat by buying Aesa equipped Block 72s. In the future if the relations between nations shift, the PAF could try to upgrade the F-16s with our own *homemade* *AESA* radars and missiles, doing what the Turks did for their F-16s; their own radars and their own BVR and WVR missiles. It’s a better long term strategy the. Hoping the US approves the V upgrade.

should the Indians fail to go for the Block 72/F-21, And if Pakistan can get the approval for a lot of used F-16s it should also try to get some overhaul facilities or spare parts production build for the F-16 in Pakistan, even if that needs to be paid for with local funds.

Pakistan should try to convince the US should that agreeing to allowing the transfer it will signal long term US-Pakistan partnership. This might be a hard task, but worth the try. Part of mending relations between the two countries.

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Oh well, but as you can see No 19 Birds also have something on the bay door.
> 
> View attachment 598068


Only on this particular jet and these are names of ground crew to honour them on a static display.

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## Haris Ali2140

FuturePAF said:


> How about a large sale (using CSF) of a few thousand MRAPs and associated COIN equipment for the KPK And Baluchistan Frontier Corps? It builds up Pakistan’s ability to police its western borders, and that’s win win for Pakistan and the West.
> 
> Under that narrative, logistical support equipment like C-130s, and even helicopters like the Chinook will clearly not look like they will effect the Indo-Pak equation. Used F-16s also can fit into this nicely, as they will be geared towards COIN-PGM capabilities. Except of Pakistan try’s to seek used F-16s it should go for the maximum number of airframes, so that it can cannibalize them in the event of a shut off of spares. These F-16s flying with AESA equipped JF-17s maybe a way to maximize the numbers and capabilities within t limited amount of CSF funds, and not rock the boat by buying Aesa equipped Block 72s. In the future if the relations between nations shift, the PAF could try to upgrade the F-16s with our own *homemade* *AESA* radars and missiles, doing what the Turks did for their F-16s; their own radars and their own BVR and WVR missiles. It’s a better long term strategy the. Hoping the US approves the V upgrade.


You need US approval to even tighten a screw and you are talking about upgrading them to BLK 70/72 standard.

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## FuturePAF

Haris Ali2140 said:


> You need US approval to even tighten a screw and you are talking about upgrading them to BLK 70/72 standard.



They might not agree to it now, but things can change. Also, it might not be upgrading them with a US AESA radar, but a Pakistan made Aesa radar.


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## Haris Ali2140

FuturePAF said:


> They might not agree to it now, but things can change. Also, it might not be upgrading them with a US AESA radar, but a Pakistan made Aesa radar.


Turkey has still not gotten permission to install their AESA radars.
@MMM-E

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## FuturePAF

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Turkey has still not gotten permission to install their AESA radars.
> @MMM-E



That’s fine for now, but a long term upgrade option would be a local AESA if allowed, otherwise just use these planes as air frames to replace older aircraft, particularly the mirages for the strike role.

In the event the PAF is not allowed to upgrade them, even simple used F-16C/D with low flight hours should be better than continuing to fly the F-7PG and Mirages. The Used F-16s should be seen as just launch platforms and the Block 3 JF-17 as the leaders with their AESA radars and EW equipment.

The psychological effect on the Indians of 3,4,5 more squadrons of F-16s, even if just Used F-16C put through a structural life extension overhaul will make them weary of engaging the PAF. 3 squadrons of F-16s held back the IAF for the better part of three decades, another 40-60 used jets will cause them to cry to the world for at least another decade, if not more.

all this at minimal cost to the PAF. It all comes down to diplomacy.

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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> Only on this particular jet and these are names of ground crew to honour them on a static display.


Sir, there are more than one displaying the same.

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## mingle

FuturePAF said:


> That’s fine for now, but a long term upgrade option would be a local AESA if allowed, otherwise just use these planes as air frames to replace older aircraft, particularly the mirages for the strike role.
> 
> In the event the PAF is not allowed to upgrade them, even simple used F-16C/D with low flight hours should be better than continuing to fly the F-7PG and Mirages. The Used F-16s should be seen as just launch platforms and the Block 3 JF-17 as the leaders with their AESA radars and EW equipment.
> 
> The psychological effect on the Indians of 3,4,5 more squadrons of F-16s, even if just Used F-16C put through a structural life extension overhaul will make them weary of engaging the PAF. 3 squadrons of F-16s held back the IAF for the better part of three decades, another 40-60 used jets will cause them to cry to the world for at least another decade, if not more.
> 
> all this at minimal cost to the PAF. It all comes down to diplomacy.


F35 imagine her impact on dhotis

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## MIRauf

POTUS won't sell Used F-16s unless PAF buys new one ( if new F-16 get approval. )

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## Adam_Khan

Windjammer said:


> I believe this is one of those F-16s that PAF acquired from Jordan as these aircraft have some distinctive writing or pattern on the bay door of the front landing gear.... and then we had some folks arguing that our Jordanian aircraft didn't have the BVR capability.



Windy it's an F.16AM from 11 squadron.


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## Armchair

jupiter2007 said:


> I am in DC, I know how USA government works. It’s a 4 years term and mid year election. For example election is done on half the seats of House of Representatives and another half in 2 years.
> 
> Pakistan can also do that if they bring presidential system with 6 years terms. Election on half of the MNA seats every 3 years and only allow person to run from his home Constituency which mean candidates must declare their home constituency when submitting their paper work to be considered as a candidate by election commission.
> Why 6 years term and why election every 3 years? Every 2 years will be costly because conducting election is not cheap.



A brilliant idea albeit off topic and something I've written about for the last 10 years or so. We need to break the box of the western political system and build our own jft version customised to ourselves.


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## krash

Windjammer said:


> I believe this is one of those F-16s that PAF acquired from Jordan as these aircraft have some distinctive writing or pattern on the bay door of the front landing gear.... and then we had some folks arguing that our Jordanian aircraft didn't have the BVR capability.





Hodor said:


> Nope its an F-16 AM assigned to Arrows and the writing says "Top Guns"



Plus it has no additional IFF antennae under the air intake which the Jordanian birds, being ADF, do.

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## Windjammer

Adam_Khan said:


> Windy it's an F.16AM from 11 squadron.


Yes i realized that dear got confused with the writing on Nose Gear Bay Door.....since i had only seen that on No 19 birds.


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## Armchair

MIRauf said:


> POTUS won't sell Used F-16s unless PAF buys new one ( if new F-16 get approval. )



There is a way out. But to understand it, you need to understand Trump's psyche.
Trump likes mega deals. 
You have to go big it can't be small rationalisation like we are used to. 

Here is the deal to offer:
1. In the event of war with Iran and the dismemberment of Iran, Pak will stabilise Iran's Sistan Baluchestan.
2. In return for this deal the US has to release one squadron of used f16s every week upto 100 jets. 
3. The US also has to pay for such an occupation at 100 million per month
4. Other equipment has to be thrown in like used maps, m109s, APCs, used c130s, used helicopters from amarc, etc.

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## Imran Khan

Armchair said:


> There is a way out. But to understand it, you need to understand Trump's psyche.
> Trump likes mega deals.
> You have to go big it can't be small rationalisation like we are used to.
> 
> Here is the deal to offer:
> 1. In the event of war with Iran and the dismemberment of Iran, Pak will stabilise Iran's Sistan Baluchestan.
> 2. In return for this deal the US has to release one squadron of used f16s every week upto 100 jets.
> 3. The US also has to pay for such an occupation at 100 million per month
> 4. Other equipment has to be thrown in like used maps, m109s, APCs, used c130s, used helicopters from amarc, etc.


can we get over f-16 hysteria now sir? its past fighter jet . if you buy today what you will do with it in next 30 years? no need US equipment its good in quality but very very very bad in politics and terms and conditions . USA is not a reliable defense supplier at all .

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Sir, there are more than one displaying the same.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 598219


I see,still these are ground crew names and these are only on 19 sqn jets because only ADFs are displayed in static for public.

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## Armchair

Imran Khan said:


> can we get over f-16 hysteria now sir? its past fighter jet . if you buy today what you will do with it in next 30 years? no need US equipment its good in quality but very very very bad in politics and terms and conditions . USA is not a reliable defense supplier at all .



What the f16 can do is special. And more f16s mean PAF can keep old ones running longer. It can be a bit like the Mirage saga.
One has to appreciate real capabilities, rather than live in mantras good Sir. Its easy to say x y or z is the past but harder to think constructively about it.

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## cloud4000

jupiter2007 said:


> I am in DC, I know how USA government works. It’s a 4 years term and mid year election. For example election is done on half the seats of House of Representatives and another half in 2 years.



Clarification is needed here.

President serves a 4-year term and can serve a maximum of two terms.

House of Representatives serve two-year terms and all 435 members have elections at the same time. It's not split.

The Senate serves six-year terms with 1/3 of them up for reelection every two years.


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## Imran Khan

Armchair said:


> What the f16 can do is special. And more f16s mean PAF can keep old ones running longer. It can be a bit like the Mirage saga.
> One has to appreciate real capabilities, rather than live in mantras good Sir. Its easy to say x y or z is the past but harder to think constructively about it.


MIRAGE is 3rd gen simple plane f-16 is complicate machine when usa will stop manufacture parts and avionics it will not possible to use them like mirage 50 years sir . we better come out of this mind set . so 180 countries did not use f-16 its not mean they don't have air force . i am fan of j-31 azm project now . f-16 are passed .


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## HRK

Armchair said:


> There is a way out. But to understand it, you need to understand Trump's psyche.
> Trump likes mega deals.
> You have to go big it can't be small rationalisation like we are used to.
> 
> Here is the deal to offer:
> 1. In the event of war with Iran and the dismemberment of Iran, Pak will stabilise Iran's Sistan Baluchestan.
> 2. In return for this deal the US has to release one squadron of used f16s every week upto 100 jets.
> 3. The US also has to pay for such an occupation at 100 million per month
> 4. Other equipment has to be thrown in like used maps, m109s, APCs, used c130s, used helicopters from amarc, etc.



Sorry Sir we as Nation should stop selling ourself short, literally it is embarrassing that some of the people want to pledge our next many generations and at least next 30-40 years of our future and lose of 100s of billion dollar to our economy just to get few hundred million dollars and few F-16s and other used military stuff .... ????

What sort of mentality is this ....???

BTW just noticed that _you don't even claim to be a Pakistani_ as flag shows you as someone from Brunei, so I don't know what dog you have in this fight which induce you so much that you are taking the privilege of advising us about our future course of action .....

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## Armchair

This is a discussion forum not a dog fight so I don't have a dog in it. 
Pak can benefit from more f16s no doubt.
Let us spell out the Downside here. If Iran is dismembered and balkanized, Pak has everything to gain from taking over Sistan Baluchestan. 
Remember that Iran wished to take over Pak Baluchistan after 1971.
Now, if the US is unable to take on Iran, Pak can sit and enjoy and still get some benefit out of it (supplied f16s).
If the US turns Iran into an Iraq, and breaks it down to mini states, Pak can go in, get the max number of f16s and other gear and then walk away if the going gets tough. 
It's a simple calculus and a win win situation for Pak no matter what transpires.

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## jupiter2007

cloud4000 said:


> Clarification is needed here.
> 
> President serves a 4-year term and can serve a maximum of two terms.
> 
> House of Representatives serve two-year terms and all 435 members have elections at the same time. It's not split.
> 
> The Senate serves six-year terms with 1/3 of them up for reelection every two years.



You’re right, 435 seats and election every 2 years for House of Representatives.
It’s different for state elections, some have 2 years and others have 4 years.

Same setup won’t work for Pakistan because of cost of doing election.
If Presidential system is implementation in Pakistan then we can have election every 3 years on 342 seats. 6 years term for president.


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## mingle

MIRauf said:


> POTUS won't sell Used F-16s unless PAF buys new one ( if new F-16 get approval. )


Said this long time ago used F-16s will come if PAF will buy new ones very simple like Bush era



Imran Khan said:


> can we get over f-16 hysteria now sir? its past fighter jet . if you buy today what you will do with it in next 30 years? no need US equipment its good in quality but very very very bad in politics and terms and conditions . USA is not a reliable defense supplier at all .


Let's talk F35 my new love

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## Imran Khan

mingle said:


> Said this long time ago used F-16s will come if PAF will buy new ones very simple like Bush era
> 
> 
> Let's talk F35 my new love


noooooooooooooooo big no 

just bring 2 to 5 only j-31 or j20 for test and keep them here and see monkey dance of india . if i was PAF i speacially request china to send both these jets to pakistan

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## mingle

Armchair said:


> This is a discussion forum not a dog fight so I don't have a dog in it.
> Pak can benefit from more f16s no doubt.
> Let us spell out the Downside here. If Iran is dismembered and balkanized, Pak has everything to gain from taking over Sistan Baluchestan.
> Remember that Iran wished to take over Pak Baluchistan after 1971.
> Now, if the US is unable to take on Iran, Pak can sit and enjoy and still get some benefit out of it (supplied f16s).
> If the US turns Iran into an Iraq, and breaks it down to mini states, Pak can go in, get the max number of f16s and other gear and then walk away if the going gets tough.
> It's a simple calculus and a win win situation for Pak no matter what transpires.


I don't think US would like to break Iran neither Iran's neighbours will want this but under current scenario with swear economic sanctions it would be very difficult for Iranian Govt to function last thing they need American bombs with destroyed infrastructure both civilian and Military and sanctions on top current Govt will collapse for sure then what will happen only God knows it's in nobodys hand. For Iran best thing is let it go move on I feel US is hell bent want Iran to respond with some military means so he can have excuse to hitt Iran's infrastructure.

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## Armchair

mingle said:


> I don't think US would like to break Iran neither Iran's neighbours will want this but under current scenario with swear economic sanctions it would be very difficult for Iranian Govt to function last thing they need American bombs with destroyed infrastructure both civilian and Military and sanctions on top current Govt will collapse for sure then what will happen only God knows it's in nobodys hand. For Iran best thing is let it go move on I feel US is hell bent want Iran to respond with some military means so he can have excuse to hitt Iran's infrastructure.



Balkanizing Muslim states is an age old policy of the West. It is something they aspire to do - divide and rule.
Also note trump is a wild man, he will grab at anything that sounds fancy and promising. We are trying to sell a lollypop to an overgrown kid, and debating if he will like the colour...

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## mingle

Armchair said:


> Balkanizing Muslim states is an age old policy of the West. It is something they aspire to do - divide and rule.
> Also note trump is a wild man, he will grab at anything that sounds fancy and promising. We are trying to sell a lollypop to an overgrown kid, and debating if he will like the colour...


I believe Pak security assistance from states gona resume soon especially changing scenario in region let's see how things been played this time around.
But every coming day devide is getting clear and clear like turkey deployment of troops in libya will urk eygpt big times they share border and big supporter of Haftar army also eygpt is a military power house along UAE and Saudia So for Pak playing neutral is good at time being but down the road they have to make unhappy one party u can't play both sides for long.
Massage for Iran and other proxies is clear from US don't mess with ARAMCO again otherwise we will mess U up. Sulemani got hitt due to ARAMCO attack which is direct attack on US interest because they figured attack came up from Iraq by his network.


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## StormBreaker

Armchair said:


> This is a discussion forum not a dog fight so I don't have a dog in it.
> Pak can benefit from more f16s no doubt.
> Let us spell out the Downside here. If Iran is dismembered and balkanized, Pak has everything to gain from taking over Sistan Baluchestan.
> Remember that Iran wished to take over Pak Baluchistan after 1971.
> Now, if the US is unable to take on Iran, Pak can sit and enjoy and still get some benefit out of it (supplied f16s).
> If the US turns Iran into an Iraq, and breaks it down to mini states, Pak can go in, get the max number of f16s and other gear and then walk away if the going gets tough.
> It's a simple calculus and a win win situation for Pak no matter what transpires.


Unless we get v upgrades with reasonable price adjustment from CSF as well as acceptable conditions, we should not seek for more F-16s !!!

Block 3 thunder is a harder punch than Block 52 and all we can get at best from USA is AIM-120C7 or C5 while thunder has the potential to carry better ranged missiles as well as potential to carry future weaponry from China and LOCAL (local is something you will see a rise within some years now).

We can carry SOMs, Heavy punch Anti Ship/Ground missiles on Thunders while USA restricts us to some options.

Simple, 
If MORE F-16s, then come with all you have in weapon package and latest tech AND easy conditions ELSE stay away !!!

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## Meejee

mingle said:


> I believe Pak security assistance from states gona resume soon especially changing scenario in region let's see how things been played this time around.
> But every coming day devide is getting clear and clear like turkey deployment of troops in libya will urk eygpt big times they share border and big supporter of Haftar army also eygpt is a military power house along UAE and Saudia So for Pak playing neutral is good at time being but down the road they have to make unhappy one party u can't play both sides for long.
> Massage for Iran and other proxies is clear from US don't mess with ARMCO again otherwise we will mess U up. Sulemani got hitt due to ARMCO attack which is direct attack on US interest because they figured attack came up from Iraq by his network.



I guess you meant ARAMCO and not ARMCO

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## StormBreaker

Meejee said:


> I guess you meant ARAMCO and not ARMCO


You are genius indeed !!!
Thanks for the exceptional discovery

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## Meejee

StormBreaker said:


> You are genius indeed !!!
> Thanks for the exceptional discovery



You are welcome.

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## mingle

Meejee said:


> I guess you meant ARAMCO and not ARMCO


Jee janab that what I mean


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## FuturePAF

mingle said:


> F35 imagine her impact on dhotis



F-35 would be overkill for the bhindians. They would need to have a foley catheter placed to deal with the psychological trauma. Lucky for them, we fly F-16s and JF-17s, more than a match for their air farce ... force.

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## airomerix

US Marines are leaving Iraq amid protests and parliamentary orders. 

This leaves Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan as potential staging areas to deter Iran. 

B-52's have already left Fairford and will be stationed in an island base in the Indian ocean. 

However, a full scale war is not likely. Hence, there is a little chance of US releasing $2B in military payments which Obama administration seized. If it happens, 24 F-16V's will become a reality. Sadly, PAF is not over F-16 hysteria. We love them.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

airomerix said:


> US Marines are leaving Iraq amid protests and parliamentary orders.
> 
> This leaves Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan as potential staging areas to deter Iran.
> 
> B-52's have already left Fairford and will be stationed in an island base in the Indian ocean.
> 
> However, a full scale war is not likely. Hence, there is a little chance of US releasing $2B in military payments which Obama administration seized. If it happens, 24 F-16V's will become a reality. Sadly, PAF is not over F-16 hysteria. We love them.


Fortunately, it's a conditional love. IIRC ACM Sohail Aman withdrew from the 8 F-16 deal because the US pulled the FMF. So, any new F-16 deal could only work through FMF/CSF, at least for 40-50% of the price.

However, personally, if that money does become available, I hope the PAF puts them towards C-130Js and, if the Army wants in, CH-47Fs.

That said, we should remember the US can work in other ways too. It might not want to put US weapons in Pakistan's hands at all. So, in this case, it could 'encourage' the UK or Japan to extend a line-of-credit so that the PAF can get fighters from another source. Doesn't help the US industry, but it does support US geo-strategic interests.

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## airomerix

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Fortunately, it's a conditional love. IIRC ACM Sohail Aman withdrew from the 8 F-16 deal because the US pulled the FMF. So, any new F-16 deal could only work through FMF/CSF, at least for 40-50% of the price.
> 
> However, personally, if that money does become available, I hope the PAF puts them towards C-130Js and, if the Army wants in, CH-47Fs.
> 
> That said, we should remember the US can work in other ways too. It might not want to put US weapons in Pakistan's hands at all. So, in this case, it could 'encourage' the UK or Japan to extend a line-of-credit so that the PAF can get fighters from another source. Doesn't help the US industry, but it does support US geo-strategic interests.



US would hate to give us $2B and then see us putting it in UK or Japanese economy. They are desperate to keep the Greenville F-16 assembly line up and running. Even historically, we have seen them providing us with equipment in exchange for services. 

We never had that kind of money to invest in US weapons anyway. Even the initial batch of 40 F-16s was paid off by a generous $500M Saudi grant.

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## mingle

airomerix said:


> US would hate to give us $2B and then see us putting it in UK or Japanese economy. They are desperate to keep the Greenville F-16 assembly line up and running. Even historically, we have seen them providing us with equipment in exchange for services.
> 
> We never had that kind of money to invest in US weapons anyway. Even the initial batch of 40 F-16s was paid off by a generous $500M Saudi grant.


F16s assembly line will remain hott for next 5 yrs or So beacuse Indonesia is buying F16 blk 72.



airomerix said:


> US Marines are leaving Iraq amid protests and parliamentary orders.
> 
> This leaves Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan as potential staging areas to deter Iran.
> 
> B-52's have already left Fairford and will be stationed in an island base in the Indian ocean.
> 
> However, a full scale war is not likely. Hence, there is a little chance of US releasing $2B in military payments which Obama administration seized. If it happens, 24 F-16V's will become a reality. Sadly, PAF is not over F-16 hysteria. We love them.


Pak become more vital for US than rest of Gulf states and it suits them for many reasons historic military ties from cold war still keeping good military relations plus Pakistan appetite for US weapons gonna stay strong yrs to come.Big trained military battle experience. Along money Pak needs US support to resolve matters with India that will big help.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

airomerix said:


> US would hate to give us $2B and then see us putting it in UK or Japanese economy. They are desperate to keep the Greenville F-16 assembly line up and running. Even historically, we have seen them providing us with equipment in exchange for services.
> 
> We never had that kind of money to invest in US weapons anyway. Even the initial batch of 40 F-16s was paid off by a generous $500M Saudi grant.


No, I mean, the US won't give us any money at all, but to keep us in their wings help us get planes from another source by convincing someone else to release the funding. So, it could be getting KSA or UAE to give us aid, or simply have Japan/UK offer the PAF a loan. No US money involved, just diplomacy.

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> No, I mean, the US won't give us any money at all, but to keep us in their wings help us get planes from another source by convincing someone else to release the funding. So, it could be getting KSA or UAE to give us aid, or simply have Japan/UK offer the PAF a loan. No US money involved, just diplomacy.


Bilal then UAE or Saudia make sence and also what @Khafee was saying make sence then? UK I doubt they are tight in budget as well japan yes make sence too


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

mingle said:


> Bilal then UAE or Saudia make sence and also what @Khafee was saying make sence then? UK I doubt they are tight in budget as well japan yes make sence too


UK could do it if the money is spent in the UK (read: Typhoon). Japan gave Qatar a loan for its Rafale purchase, so a Japanese loan could go the US, UK or France. Remember, about the UK or Japan, I am only talking about loans (that we'll need to pay back), not grants/aid. 

KSA and/or UAE can obviously provide grants, especially if the US 'encourages' them to do it, and that money could go to the US, UK or France.

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## Armchair

airomerix said:


> US Marines are leaving Iraq amid protests and parliamentary orders.
> 
> This leaves Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan as potential staging areas to deter Iran.
> 
> B-52's have already left Fairford and will be stationed in an island base in the Indian ocean.
> 
> However, a full scale war is not likely. Hence, there is a little chance of US releasing $2B in military payments which Obama administration seized. If it happens, 24 F-16V's will become a reality. Sadly, PAF is not over F-16 hysteria. We love them.



Basically the US and allied are building up to a war now or whenever to turn Iran into Iraq. 
Secondly, Trump likes making deals. 

Here is the deal - used f16s /m109 / c130/etc - which costs them nothing as otherwise they will turn into rust buckets anyways
For an ally to help with Iran

Rusting retired junk < ally

An ally who can hold Sistan Baluchestan when Iran is broken up. 

Trump understands this kind of maths. Not the other indirect kind the US deep state likes. 

In addition, we can make a nominal purchase of 6 f16s with 36 options so he can win some LM states and do some publicity. 

One just needs to sell this correctly to Trump. They will bite but we to make sure f16 supply stays on a timetable so that they can't keep pushing dates. This should be in the deal from the getgo

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## StructE

There is no full scale war happening, at least with Iran, speaker of house is moving fast to curtail Trump's capacity to wage war, he will be defanged fairly quick.

https://www.npr.org/2020/01/06/7939...sure-limiting-trumps-military-actions-in-iran

Lets see what transpires for Pakistan from this limited skirmish, in my opinion any thoughts of military hardware on expense of Iran are not that great for Pakistan in long run, imagine another Afghanistan while the current one is not fully settled yet.


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## Armchair

Sh!t happens whether we want it or not.
There are those that can take advantage of it and turn it into Fertilizer and those that wallow in the what ifs. 

If Israel wants a war the US will go to war, Congress or no Congress. Israel wants this war. We are at an advanced stage of an orchestration of war. The symphony has started. The fat lady is putting on her makeup.
Those smart enough see it.

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## Raider 21

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> UK could do it if the money is spent in the UK (read: Typhoon). Japan gave Qatar a loan for its Rafale purchase, so a Japanese loan could go the US, UK or France. Remember, about the UK or Japan, I am only talking about loans (that we'll need to pay back), not grants/aid.
> 
> KSA and/or UAE can obviously provide grants, especially if the US 'encourages' them to do it, and that money could go to the US, UK or France.


KSA does, how do you think the 1st and 2nd PEACE GATE FMS F-16 deals came through. The first F-16s to enter PAF service had to land in Saudi Arabia on their delivery flights from the US.

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## DrWatson775

Knuckles said:


> KSA does, how do you think the 1st and 2nd PEACE GATE FMS F-16 deals came through. The first F-16s to enter PAF service had to land in Saudi Arabia on their delivery flights from the US.


Sad state of affairs economically. Sometimes I cannot believe how we ended up in such a bad economic situation. We didnt change our ways as debt trap/bad economic situation was common knowledge in the early 90s (maybe even before that). Now our vanguard -the airforce- has to suffer in these uncertain times.


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## Tank131

There should be no amount of money which Pakistan should take to help in any conflict against iran. Stay neutral and stay out of it. Try to make peace, because the US will jot be able to overthrow Iranian regime give zero appetite even amongst many Republicans to get into a war. They couldn't /wouldnt do so in Syria, and Iran is no syria. There may be a few strikes but that is it. You live next to Iran and 20% of your population is Shia (many who are quite loyal to Iran). Stay out of it no matter what is thrown in your lap. Iran will make it miserable for you and you are already surrounded by Afghanistan and India who hate Pakistan. Iran is more or less neutral (if not somewhat on Indias side). The US is not going to give anything that will make a significant difference vis a vis india nor will it help in Kashmir. So it wont be worth it.

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## Windjammer

Very few aircraft make an impression like the F-16.

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## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


> Very few aircraft make an impression like the F-16.


A valuable lesson learned by the IAF last year.

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## Talon

@Trailer23 @Windjammer

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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> @Trailer23 @Windjammer


Looks to be an old video as the ''Birdcutter'' seems to be missing.

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## Myth_buster_1

Windjammer said:


> Looks to be an old video as the ''Birdcutter'' seems to be missing.


the grippen logo with a gray rectangular patch on rudder only existed after MLU. with this low quality video its hard to see bird cutters.

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## Pakistani Fighter

airomerix said:


> Sadly, PAF is not over F-16 hysteria. We love them.


Because they are proven

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Looks to be an old video as the ''Birdcutter'' seems to be missing.


This tail art was adopted after MLU.IFF antennas are there but not visible due to low quality as @Myth_buster_1 said.
Also its an MLU cockpit if you look closely.

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## Myth_buster_1

Hodor said:


> This tail art was adopted after MLU.IFF antennas are there but not visible due to low quality as @Myth_buster_1 said.
> Also its an MLU cockpit if you look closely.


oh also notice the sniper pod front portion.


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## airomerix

Also, the scales on the fuselage indicate it has gone through falcon star upgrade.


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## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


> Looks to be an old video as the ''Birdcutter'' seems to be missing.





Hodor said:


> This tail art was adopted after MLU.IFF antennas are there but not visible due to low quality.
> Also its an MLU cockpit if you look closely.


Well, I took a screen grab from the vid.






Anyways, as long as I keep getting kick@$$ material like this - i'm happy.

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## mshan44



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## Windjammer

Old is Gold. Fully bombed up F-16 during the initial stages of WOT.

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## Windjammer



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## Imran Khan

one of my favorite image of falcon

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## WiderMan



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## Windjammer

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Adam_Khan

Imran Khan said:


> one of my favorite image of falcon





Imran Khan said:


> one of my favorite image of falcon



It's photoshopped bro.

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## mshan44



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## khanasifm

Max speed and height needed to attain 


http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/performance/q0030b.shtml

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## FLIR

Imran Khan said:


> one of my favorite image of falcon


photoshop?


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## Windjammer

Fully Armed and on the hunt.

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## WiderMan



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## Windjammer

WiderMan said:


> View attachment 600998


This looks like Shahbaz.....and MiG-21 Tail. ??


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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 600536
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 600537


The bottom Pic, I'm trying to figure out which video is that. It looks very much like a USAF group of Vipers.


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## Trailer23

Knuckles said:


> The bottom Pic, I'm trying to figure out which video is that. It looks very much like a USAF group of Vipers.


Its actually a frame taken from that [new] promotional video by the PAF on YouTube.


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## Windjammer

Knuckles said:


> The bottom Pic, I'm trying to figure out which video is that. It looks very much like a USAF group of Vipers.


I doubt USAF Vipers ever landed in Bholari Base.


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## WiderMan

Windjammer said:


> This looks like Shahbaz.....and MiG-21 Tail. ??





AF museum. Nicked off flickr (

__
https://flic.kr/p/49341851436
)



Windjammer said:


> I doubt USAF Vipers ever landed in Bholari Base.



Those would be the ADFs. Dual IFFs, landing light in the aft wheel well.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> I doubt USAF Vipers ever landed in Bholari Base.


I cannot tell if it is Bholari and we don't launch out that many Vipers usually. Not to mention the screenshot from the video doesn't give out if they are PAF jets.


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## Windjammer

Knuckles said:


> I cannot tell if it is Bholari and we don't launch out that many Vipers usually. Not to mention the screenshot from the video doesn't give out if they are PAF jets.



Why is it so difficult to accept the obvious....
One just has to look at the finishing on the edge of the runway to understand the location.....I also believe instead of launching, those Vipers are being recovered......and then there was an occasion when some assets from another base were dispersed in Bholari.


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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> Why is it so difficult to accept the obvious....
> One just has to look at the finishing on the edge of the runway to understand the location.....I also believe instead of launching, those Vipers are being recovered......and then there was an occasion when some assets from another base were dispersed in Bholari.


Cheers Wind.


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## Trailer23



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## Imran Khan

WiderMan said:


> AF museum. Nicked off flickr (
> 
> __
> https://flic.kr/p/49341851436
> )
> 
> 
> 
> Those would be the ADFs. Dual IFFs, landing light in the aft wheel well.


Its not tail i think


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## WiderMan

Imran Khan said:


> Its not tail i think



It's not, most likely a horizontal stab.

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## Windjammer

Imran Khan said:


> Its not tail i think





WiderMan said:


> It's not, most likely a horizontal stab.

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## Imran Khan

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 601214


Thats is what i was thinking because tail was so big in pics of 1999 scrap we shot down .

hamari kismat main yehi indian kachra mar girana likha hai


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## Windjammer

Imran Khan said:


> Thats is what i was thinking because tail was so big in pics of 1999 scrap we shot down .
> 
> hamari kismat main yehi indian kachra mar girana likha hai
> 
> 
> View attachment 601222



Bhai jo woh bhejtey hai'n, woh hi hum khuley bazoo wasool kartey hai'n.


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## Imran Khan

Windjammer said:


> Bhai jo woh bhejtey hai'n, woh hi hum khuley bazoo wasool kartey hai'n.


i am sick of this indian bad habit we need some new tails . we already have many mig-21 mig-27 tails and russian junk even complete mig-21 parked in our museum


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## Nasr

Imran Khan said:


> hamari kismat main yehi indian kachra mar girana likha hai



When one is dealing with an enemy that cannot tell it's head from it's @$$, to "_kachra_" air Force "kachra" fighter bhejaygi. The indiots were too afraid to suffer the loss of Mirage-2000s or Su-30 MKi so they sent their kachra to make it seem like they responded.

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## Windjammer

A Very distinctive formation.

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## TheTallGuy

Windjammer said:


> A Very distinguished formation.


care to elaborate? why it is distinguished?


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## StormBreaker

TheTallGuy said:


> care to elaborate? why it is distinguished?


Perhaps a sign that regardless of squadron difference, inter operability is also practiced widely to promote mutual coordination and joint ops

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## TheTallGuy

By the way i was wondering since last year all the pictures that are usually posted of F-16s shows extensive worn....seriously heavy flying that is starting to show in pictures...

F-16 Pictures use to be pristine & clean and now they look like they have flown more then 4000+ combat sorties and they require fresh paint now..


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## Windjammer

TheTallGuy said:


> care to elaborate? why it is distinguished?


It was meant to be distinctive.


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## WiderMan

TheTallGuy said:


> By the way i was wondering since last year all the pictures that are usually posted of F-16s shows extensive worn....seriously heavy flying that is starting to show in pictures...
> 
> F-16 Pictures use to be pristine & clean and now they look like they have flown more then 4000+ combat sorties and they require fresh paint now..




They're given a fresh coat every once in a while, PAF takes great care of these beauts.


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## Dazzler

TheTallGuy said:


> care to elaborate? why it is distinguished?



A, B, C, D in one photo.

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## Windjammer

Anytime, Anyplace, We Will Rock.

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## airomerix

A GIBS with 'live' rounds of AMRAAMs. The guy has less than 1500 hrs as well. Probably a young Flt Lt on a CAP along with his instructor.


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## cloud4000

Windjammer said:


> Very few aircraft make an impression like the F-16.
> 
> u



It is indeed an impressive aircraft. I had many opportunities to see them at air shows. I was shocked by how small the aircraft was compared to the F-15 or naval fighters. Nevertheless, it's a potent aircraft.

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## mshan44




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## Windjammer

*Between May 2009 and November 2011, the PAF F-16 fleet flew more than 5,500 sorties in support of the Pakistan Army's operations against the Taliban insurgency in the FATA region of North-West Pakistan. More than 80% of the dropped munitions were laser-guided bombs*

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## mshan44



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## MastanKhan

Windjammer said:


> *Between May 2009 and November 2011, the PAF F-16 fleet flew more than 5,500 sorties in support of the Pakistan Army's operations against the Taliban insurgency in the FATA region of North-West Pakistan. More than 80% of the dropped munitions were laser-guided bombs*



Hi,

How Old is your oldest connection is Paf---. Anyone serving as sqdrn Ldr at that time---.

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## Windjammer

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> How Old is your oldest connection is Paf---. Anyone serving as sqdrn Ldr at that time---.


I know of a Wing Commander from that period and he may head the PAF soon.

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## MastanKhan

Windjammer said:


> I know of a Wing Commander from that period and he may head the PAF soon.



hi,

i wrote this a long time ago.

early 80’s i used to live close to hill afb.

a pakistani sqdrn ldr base—-had gd relations with him disclosed the pak had joint patent with the US military for a laser guided bomb. I am talking about time period 1984-85

authenticity of the sqdrn ldr is he was the first pilot to survive a broken neck after ejecting his F6 over shorkot


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## Windjammer

MastanKhan said:


> hi,
> 
> i wrote this a long time ago.
> 
> early 80’s i used to live close to hill afb.
> 
> a pakistani sqdrn ldr base—-had gd relations with him disclosed the pak had joint patent with the US military for a laser guided bomb. I am talking about time period 1984-85
> 
> authenticity of the sqdrn ldr is he was the first pilot to survive a broken neck after ejecting his F6 over shorkot


Uncle Ji , at that time of period, one was more interested in Female anatomy than Fighter jet analogy.

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## mshan44



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## Roller321321

Do our F-16s have AAR? Considering they have a different method of fuel delivery compared to the JF-17, have we modified our tankers to accommodate the F-16 as well?


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## Myth_buster_1

Roller321321 said:


> Do our F-16s have AAR? Considering they have a different method of fuel delivery compared to the JF-17, have we modified our tankers to accommodate the F-16 as well?


PAF F-16s are capable of AAR but they dont have AAR tankers.


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## MastanKhan

Windjammer said:


> Uncle Ji , at that time of period, one was more interested in Female anatomy than Fighter jet analogy.



Hi,

The reason for my post was to ask him about what I wrote---.


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## Roller321321

Myth_buster_1 said:


> PAF F-16s are capable of AAR but they dont have AAR tankers.


Do we have any plans for modifications to our current tanker fleet/acquisition of a separate tanker for F-16s?


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## Myth_buster_1

Roller321321 said:


> Do we have any plans for modifications to our current tanker fleet/acquisition of a separate tanker for F-16s?


Uncle SAM would not allow it.

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## aliyusuf

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Uncle SAM would not allow it.


As long as we don't modify our F-16s or tinker with it in any way and we don't use it as an aggressive first strike platform against India inside Indian territory ... then we don't violet any agreement with the US govt.

Whether the US would sell us a Tanker? Not likely. But if we can modify some existing tanker, the US may not like it ... but cannot stop us.

*Probably we have not done it already because it costs a lot of money to do these things and we already have to pay for ...*
1. Building new Thunders
2. Acquiring/Building new Submarines from China
3. Acquiring/Building new Frigates From China
4. Building new Tanks
5. Acquiring Gunships
6. Acquiring plethora of support platforms and vehicles for the Army, Air Force and the Navy
7. New munitions
8. Maintenance & Operational costs of existing equipment (for all three services)
9. Upkeep and Expansion of our strategic and Unconventional Arsenal
etc. etc.

We have enough on our plates at the moment to pay for IMHO. But the Il-78P Midas AAR platforms are there for the air borne replenishment for our Thunders and Mirages. So maybe F-16 specific AARs, under current circumstances, may not be in high in priority.


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## Kingslayerr

aliyusuf said:


> As long as we don't modify our F-16s or tinker with it in any way and we don't use it as an aggressive first strike platform against India inside Indian territory ... then we don't violet any agreement with the US govt.
> 
> Whether the US would sell us a Tanker? Not likely. But if we can modify some existing tanker, the US may not like it ... but cannot stop us.
> 
> *Probably we have not done it already because it costs a lot of money to do these things and we already have to pay for ...*
> 1. Building new Thunders
> 2. Acquiring/Building new Submarines from China
> 3. Acquiring/Building new Frigates From China
> 4. Building new Tanks
> 5. Acquiring Gunships
> 6. Acquiring plethora of support platforms and vehicles for the Army, Air Force and the Navy
> 7. New munitions
> 8. Maintenance & Operational costs of existing equipment (for all three services)
> 9. Upkeep and Expansion of our strategic and Unconventional Arsenal
> etc. etc.
> 
> We have enough on our plates at the moment to pay for IMHO. But the Il-78P Midas AAR platforms are there for the air borne replenishment for our Thunders and Mirages. So maybe F-16 specific AARs, under current circumstances, may not be in high in priority.


Hi, is it possible for us to bit the broom refuling technology and incorporate it in our existing tankers? So the tankers could perform both types of reguling broom and


aliyusuf said:


> As long as we don't modify our F-16s or tinker with it in any way and we don't use it as an aggressive first strike platform against India inside Indian territory ... then we don't violet any agreement with the US govt.
> 
> Whether the US would sell us a Tanker? Not likely. But if we can modify some existing tanker, the US may not like it ... but cannot stop us.
> 
> *Probably we have not done it already because it costs a lot of money to do these things and we already have to pay for ...*
> 1. Building new Thunders
> 2. Acquiring/Building new Submarines from China
> 3. Acquiring/Building new Frigates From China
> 4. Building new Tanks
> 5. Acquiring Gunships
> 6. Acquiring plethora of support platforms and vehicles for the Army, Air Force and the Navy
> 7. New munitions
> 8. Maintenance & Operational costs of existing equipment (for all three services)
> 9. Upkeep and Expansion of our strategic and Unconventional Arsenal
> etc. etc.
> 
> We have enough on our plates at the moment to pay for IMHO. But the Il-78P Midas AAR platforms are there for the air borne replenishment for our Thunders and Mirages. So maybe F-16 specific AARs, under current circumstances, may not be in high in priority.


Hi, is it possible for us to aquire and incorporate the broom refuling system in our existing tankers, so they can perform both types of ( probe-drogue, broom) refuling for f-16s and mirages/thunders ?


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## Trailer23

Roller321321 said:


> Do our F-16s have AAR?


In order for our F-16's to have Air-to-Air Refueling capability, we would require to modify all of our F-16's which would cost a lot of money.

The USAF are pitching the F-21 to India which will have the capability of drogue basket aerial refueling available to them. Not sure if that option is available in the new Block 70/72.

*A Lockheed Martin Test F-16.*



For the amount it would cost to modify all of our F-16's, we could easily buy buy 2-3 Used Tankers from the USAF.


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## aliyusuf

Kingslayerr said:


> Hi, is it possible for us to bit the broom refuling technology and incorporate it in our existing tankers? So the tankers could perform both types of reguling broom and
> 
> Hi, is it possible for us to aquire and incorporate the broom refuling system in our existing tankers, so they can perform both types of ( probe-drogue, broom) refuling for f-16s and mirages/thunders ?


That is a technical question I don't have the knowledge to answer. But I haven't heard or read about any tanker that has both type of probes.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The reason for my post was to ask him about what I wrote---.


He may not know as those were instructors of his instructors on Vipers.

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## The Eagle

Roller321321 said:


> Do our F-16s have AAR?


Yes.





What we don't have, is the tankers and given its cost; the one may not need it. PAF's existing fleet per it dedicated duties while some of them having CFT's, is good enough to fulfill the need/requirement.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The Eagle said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What we don't have, is the tankers and given its cost; the one may not need it. PAF's existing fleet per it dedicated duties while some of them having CFT's, is good enough to fulfill the need/requirement.


In the late 2000s the PAF identified the need for a dual boom and hose-and-drogue tanker. Unfortunately, the best option at the time -- A310 MRTT -- wasn't available, and everything else was either too expensive (A330 MRTT) or simply a non-starter (Pegasus). However, if the necessary subsystems (i.e., boom and hose-and-drogue pods) are to become available from somewhere, the PAF could foot a bespoke solution using surplus airliners. 

It's worth noting that China was rumoured to have been experimenting with boom refuelling. So, an Eastern MRTT platform (UPAZ + Sino-Boom) could be on the horizon.

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## mshan44



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## Falcon26

aliyusuf said:


> As long as we don't modify our F-16s or tinker with it in any way and we don't use it as an aggressive *first strike platform against India inside Indian territory* ... then we don't violet any agreement with the US govt.
> 
> Whether the US would sell us a Tanker? Not likely. But if we can modify some existing tanker, the US may not like it ... but cannot stop us.
> 
> *Probably we have not done it already because it costs a lot of money to do these things and we already have to pay for ...*
> 1. Building new Thunders
> 2. Acquiring/Building new Submarines from China
> 3. Acquiring/Building new Frigates From China
> 4. Building new Tanks
> 5. Acquiring Gunships
> 6. Acquiring plethora of support platforms and vehicles for the Army, Air Force and the Navy
> 7. New munitions
> 8. Maintenance & Operational costs of existing equipment (for all three services)
> 9. Upkeep and Expansion of our strategic and Unconventional Arsenal
> etc. etc.
> 
> We have enough on our plates at the moment to pay for IMHO. But the Il-78P Midas AAR platforms are there for the air borne replenishment for our Thunders and Mirages. So maybe F-16 specific AARs, under current circumstances, may not be in high in priority.



Where is the evidence for these conditions? Please stop making up your own facts!


----------



## Haris Ali2140

Falcon26 said:


> Where is the evidence for these conditions? Please stop making up your own facts!


We can't arm F-16s with SOWs. Can we???


----------



## Trailer23

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's worth noting that China was rumoured to have been experimenting with boom refuelling.


Do you think the US will allow our F-16 to be fueled up by a Chinese Tanker having such a capability?

The Chinese would first need a F-16 as a Test Bed. Even if they were able to make one, the Americans could come up with something looney like the boom would draw all the tech from the Falcon whilst in midair.


----------



## Falcon26

Haris Ali2140 said:


> We can't arm F-16s with SOWs. Can we???



go back to the highlighted text in my reply and then answer.


----------



## aliyusuf

Falcon26 said:


> Where is the evidence for these conditions? Please stop making up your own facts!


It has been out there on the net for almost a decade. Kindly google, you may be able to find it.


----------



## Falcon26

aliyusuf said:


> It has been out there on the net for almost a decade. Kindly google, you may be able to find it.



You can’t google because it doesn’t exist. Stop spreading phony rumors. Moderators please maintain forum integrity @waz


----------



## MIRauf

Haris Ali2140 said:


> We can't arm F-16s with SOWs. Can we???



Only with US origin ones, if available to PAF. Code is not available to modify / update to add in house solutions. It would be futile to compare JF-17 solutions and or 50+ year old M3/5 with F-16 options.


----------



## Imran Khan

aliyusuf said:


> It has been out there on the net for almost a decade. Kindly google, you may be able to find it.


this is simple BS then anything else . tell me why paksitan can not use these f-16 ? india was US partner in 1981 when we signed contract ? there is no such thing it was massive indian propaganda recent years when they failed to stop our f-16 deals .



Falcon26 said:


> go back to the highlighted text in my reply and then answer.


the only sole purpose of 111 f-16 deal was to counter rising Indian threat in early 1980 . we received 40 of them and still they were enough to counter india in 90s . india was deep soviet partner those days and USA have no interest in india in 1981 .

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## aliyusuf

Imran Khan said:


> this is simple BS then anything else . tell me why paksitan can not use these f-16 ? india was US partner in 1981 when we signed contract ? there is no such thing it was massive indian propaganda recent years when they failed to stop our f-16 deals .


Simmer down friend. The stipulations were about the Peace Drive F-16 Block-52+ deal at around in 2006 (approx) and but not sure whether those stipulations also were applicable to the TAPE-5 MLU-ed existing Block-15 F-16s of the PAF after their upgrade. The Indian lobby had been working to get the deal scuttled saying that these F-16s would be used against India and not the terrorists. It was all over the electronic and print media back then.



Falcon26 said:


> You can’t google because it doesn’t exist. Stop spreading phony rumors. Moderators please maintain forum integrity @waz


Brother I had saved links about how the Israelis had been behind the 9/11 fiasco ... videos and articles ... all gone. I can say with surety that this had been common back then and even afterwards. I will search for the original pieces on local news papers even when I have a bit more free time. But I am perplexed no info is coming up on the issue.


----------



## Falcon26

Imran Khan said:


> this is simple BS then anything else . tell me why paksitan can not use these f-16 ? india was US partner in 1981 when we signed contract ? there is no such thing it was massive indian propaganda recent years when they failed to stop our f-16 deals .
> 
> 
> the only sole purpose of 111 f-16 deal was to counter rising Indian threat in early 1980 . we received 40 of them and still they were enough to counter india in 90s . india was deep soviet partner those days and USA have no interest in india in 1981 .



Thank you.

members these days are running wild repeating wild and phony claims and using “go google” as a card to escape accountability. Moderators should act before this forum degenerates even further. A member the other day claimed that in exchange for not pursuing the AZM program, the US offered Pakistan few squadrons of the F-18 jets. This was followed by almost three pages of discussions on this. It’s getting out of hand.



aliyusuf said:


> Simmer down friend. The stipulations were about the Peace Drive F-16 Block-52+ deal at around in 2006 (approx) and but not sure whether those stipulations also were applicable to the TAPE-5 MLU-ed existing Block-15 F-16s of the PAF after their upgrade. The Indian lobby had been working to get the deal scuttled saying that these F-16s would be used against India and not the terrorists. It was all over the electronic and print media back then.
> 
> 
> Brother I had saved links about how the Israelis had been behind the 9/11 fiasco ... videos and articles ... all gone. I can say with surety that this had been common back then and even afterwards. I will search for the original pieces on local news papers even when I have a bit more free time. But I am perplexed no info is coming up on the issue.



The only restrictions are China specific and it relates to protecting US technology. It has nothing to do with India. Pakistan is free to use its f-16s as it sees fit.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Trailer23 said:


> Do you think the US will allow our F-16 to be fueled up by a Chinese Tanker having such a capability?
> 
> The Chinese would first need a F-16 as a Test Bed. Even if they were able to make one, the Americans could come up with something looney like the boom would draw all the tech from the Falcon whilst in midair.


It seems only US-designed aircraft use boom refuelling, so in all likelihood, the Chinese would probably emulate what works than to design their own standard. The boom configuration information isn't just available to the US, the Europeans and Israelis have it as well (to make their respective tanker designs).

As for implementation, the key is to get the Chinese boom system onto a commercial airliner, like a used Airbus, and not really talk about it (or pretend it's a Pakistani solution).

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## Imran Khan

aliyusuf said:


> Simmer down friend. The stipulations were about the Peace Drive F-16 Block-52+ deal at around in 2006 (approx) and but not sure whether those stipulations also were applicable to the TAPE-5 MLU-ed existing Block-15 F-16s of the PAF after their upgrade. The Indian lobby had been working to get the deal scuttled saying that these F-16s would be used against India and not the terrorists. It was all over the electronic and print media back then.
> 
> 
> Brother I had saved links about how the Israelis had been behind the 9/11 fiasco ... videos and articles ... all gone. I can say with surety that this had been common back then and even afterwards. I will search for the original pieces on local news papers even when I have a bit more free time. But I am perplexed no info is coming up on the issue.


they sale f-16 to iraq did you notice sir ?those f-16 are to fight terror only .-
while PAF order was world largest single AIM-120 missile contract . tell me please which terrorist air force they use these AMRAAMs? JHMS ? AIM-9 ? ALQ131?

if indians claim such things i never mind but when our own people fall in propaganda i really feel bad . there is no such deal . only deal was not to mix with chines and do not transfer f-16blk 52 to china . for saving US tech to fall in chines hands .

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## Trailer23

In all honesty, I never knew the was a *KC-767* ever built or is currently operating.

The KC-767 is pretty much the same dimensions of a B767-200 and is currently serving in Four Air Forces. 4 x Japan. 4 x Italy. 1 x Brazil. 1 x Columbia. That's it. Only 11 Produced.

The KC-46 (Pegasus) is a tad bigger than the B767-200, but relatively smaller than a B767-300.

It would be great if we could get our hands on some B767 & convert 'em into our own Refueling Tankers.


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## Windjammer

Boys From Niner on CAP.

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## GriffinsRule

https://airrefuelingarchive.wordpress.com/2009/05/12/sargent-fletcher-arts-pod-f-16-vista/






Pakistan could come up with a fuel tank solution like the ART/S one here without having to modify the F-16s but range is not an issue anyways


----------



## khanasifm

GriffinsRule said:


> https://airrefuelingarchive.wordpress.com/2009/05/12/sargent-fletcher-arts-pod-f-16-vista/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan could come up with a fuel tank solution like the ART/S one here without having to modify the F-16s but range is not an issue anyways



For some reason no airforce has adopted the solution


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## GriffinsRule

khanasifm said:


> For some reason no airforce has adopted the solution


Probably because ones that require specific AAR tankers have no issues acquiring them.


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## krash

Kingslayerr said:


> Hi, is it possible for us to bit the broom refuling technology and incorporate it in our existing tankers? So the tankers could perform both types of reguling broom and
> 
> Hi, is it possible for us to aquire and incorporate the broom refuling system in our existing tankers, so they can perform both types of ( probe-drogue, broom) refuling for f-16s and mirages/thunders ?





aliyusuf said:


> That is a technical question I don't have the knowledge to answer. But I haven't heard or read about any tanker that has both type of probes.



The A330 MRTT / KC-30A can be fitted with pods for Probe-Drogue on the wings and the fuselage, and with a Boom on the fuselage. Before flight, if you fit the Probe-Drogue pods on the wings and the Boom pod in the fuselage then you can refuel both types of aircraft in the same flight.

The below RAAF KC-30A is configured as above. The boom is retracted.






Our IL-78 refuelers are also fitted with a poded drogue-probe system which can be removed if the aircraft needs to be used as a cargo carrier. Hence, at least theoretically, a podded boom system could be developed for the IL-78. None exist as of yet.

You can also attach probe-drogue adapters at the ends of the booms of the KC-10 and the KC-135 but can't have them refueling both types in the same flight.

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## Viper27

Airbus has just successfully tested the C-295 as a tanker. Alan Warnes retweeted an official Airbus video showing a successful drogue connection. May be PAF can look into this considering we already operate the shorter version for transport.


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## Haris Ali2140

krash said:


> The A330 MRTT / KC-30A can be fitted with pods for Probe-Drogue on the wings and the fuselage, and with a Boom on the fuselage. Before flight, if you fit the Probe-Drogue pods on the wings and the Boom pod in the fuselage then you can refuel both types of aircraft in the same flight.
> 
> The below RAAF KC-30A is configured as above. The boom is retracted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our IL-78 refuelers are also fitted with a poded drogue-probe system which can be removed if the aircraft needs to be used as a cargo carrier. Hence, at least theoretically, a podded boom system could be developed for the IL-78. None exist as of yet.
> 
> You can also attach probe-drogue adapters at the ends of the booms of the KC-10 and the KC-135 but can't have them refueling both types in the same flight.







@aliyusuf @Quwa @Trailer23

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## mshan44



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## WiderMan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223360517110214658

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## araz

WiderMan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1223360517110214658


But no HOBS to slave it to!!!.
On a more inquisitive note I wonder what the thoughts currently are on the utility of HOBS when we are mostly wanting to engage in BVR? IS it simply a case of "we will play with it when we get it" or "Naah not worth the money". Secondly if we were to get the A Darter would we be allowed to use it on the 16s or not? I strongly suspect the US will then tell us to buy some 9Xs.
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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

araz said:


> But no HOBS to slave it to!!!.
> On a more inquisitive note I wonder what the thoughts currently are on the utility of HOBS when we are mostly wanting to engage in BVR? IS it simply a case of "we will play with it when we get it" or "Naah not worth the money". Secondly if we were to get the A Darter would we be allowed to use it on the 16s or not? I strongly suspect the US will then tell us to buy some 9Xs.
> A


The US will not allow the PAF to integrate anything to the F-16 without US permission. If the US does allow it though, the PAF would need to select something that is proven to work from the F-16, and benefits from OEM-backed updates/maintenance. So, the only option (aside from AIM-9X) is the IRIS-T, and that has been offer since 2006 via Germany. Of course, if the US doesn't allow it, then the PAF can't take up the offer. 

That said, if the PAF wants to pursue a new F-16 deal, it'll make sure to add AIM-9X or IRIS-T to the package. If not additional F-16s, then through a F-16V upgrade.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That said, if the PAF wants to pursue a new F-16 deal, it'll make sure to add AIM-9X or IRIS-T to the package. If not additional F-16s, then through a F-16V upgrade.


Why not get AIM120D instead. Its a BVR era now. Atleast we can say Meteor is tilting the balance in India's favour so we can have AIM120Ds

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## mshan44



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## The Accountant

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 603766


using AMRAAM in wingtips. Interesting.

Hence PAF strategy is to engage more and more in BVR combat and to not things move to WVR combat


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## baqai

The Accountant said:


> using AMRAAM in wingtips. Interesting.
> 
> Hence PAF strategy is to engage more and more in BVR combat and to not things move to WVR combat



or maybe have JF-17's running second layer of point defence while Falcon's (till the time block 3 and AESA is available) use the AMRAAMS


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## The Accountant

baqai said:


> or maybe have JF-17's running second layer of point defence while Falcon's (till the time block 3 and AESA is available) use the AMRAAMS


May be, but 27th Feb proved that even for point defence BVR is the key.


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## MIRauf

I remember watching "Buck Rogers in 25th Century" and flying "Thunder Fighter" in space attacking invading forces, engaging in VLRAAM ( thousands of miles away. ) Fast forward about 40 years and we have JF-17 Thunder ready to engage hostiles with VLRAAM ( PL-15 ) not thousands miles away but over 100+ Miles.


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## krash

The Accountant said:


> using AMRAAM in wingtips. Interesting.
> 
> Hence PAF strategy is to engage more and more in BVR combat and to not things move to WVR combat



The focus of modern aerial combat has indeed shifted more towards BVR but I do not believe that is the philosophy behind the AIM-120s on wingtips. It's definitely not about the outright replacement of WVRs with BVRs since we see AIM-120s on wingtips with AIM-9s on inner stations all the time.

The further a given load is from the fuselage (pivot/fulcrum) the more stress/force it will exert on the the wing (lever arm) during maneuvers and, hence, the more it will effect said maneuvers. Coupling this with the fact that you are more likely to launch your BVRs before your WVRs, it just makes a lot more sense to load the AIM-120s on the outermost stations and work your way inwards, with the AIM-9s loaded on the innermost available stations. In an ideal scenario, this allows you to engage the enemy in BVR, launch your AIM-120s from outwards to inwards, removing loads from the most taxing stations first, and then merge with your AIM-9s on your innermost available stations. Gives you that extra little bit of maneuverability for the 'dogfight' than if you had your AIM-9s on your wingtips. We see this configuration on F-16s across the world these days.













This is my personal understanding on the matter. Someone please correct me if I've read too much into it.

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## WiderMan

AIM-120s help suppress wing flutter when you're not running clean tips, that's all there is to it.

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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer

Boys From Niner on a Night CAP.

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## Signalian

Study conducted on Research Gate:
On the use of AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) Radar and IRST(Infra Red Search & Track) System to Detect and Track Low Observable Threats

1.Estimated detection ranges vs scan angle against a target of 1 m² RCS, for the radars APG-68(V)9, APG-83 and APG-80. At high off-boresight angles, the AESA APG-83 becomes less effective than the MSA APG-68(V)9 in terms of range.









2. Estimated maximum detection ranges vs off-boresight angle against a stealth target of 0.01 m² RCS (e.g., the F-35), for the APG-68(V)9, APG-83 and APG-80 radars, as well as for a modern LWIR IRST system (front view, Narrow Field Of View, clean atmosphere).

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## Windjammer

*A Fully Armed Viper Returns After another CAP Mission.




*

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## araz

Windjammer said:


> *A Fully Armed Viper Returns After another CAP Mission.
> 
> View attachment 604147
> *


Interesting picture. A 4+2 configuration of AAMs. This is what we have been talking about. I wonder if a respectable Indian member will put up a photograph of an MKI on cap to compare.
A


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## StormBreaker

Windjammer said:


> *A Fully Armed Viper Returns After another CAP Mission.
> 
> View attachment 604147
> *


Ufff 

Need a front shot, just after landing, the beauty of F-16 is fron the front and top and the bottom



araz said:


> Interesting picture. A 4+2 configuration of AAMs. This is what we have been talking about. I wonder if a respectable Indian member will put up a photograph of an MKI on cap to compare.
> A


Do we have AIM-7 ?

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## Windjammer

Preparing to leave for another hunting mission.

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## Lord Of Gondor

araz said:


> Interesting picture. A 4+2 configuration of AAMs. This is what we have been talking about. I wonder if a respectable Indian member will put up a photograph of an MKI on cap to compare.
> A


Comparable load out from the MiG-29 UPG(2+2+2):




Su-30MKI will have more flexibility due to more HPs and no drop tanks.

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## syed_yusuf

Lord Of Gondor said:


> Comparable load out from the MiG-29 UPG(2+2+2):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Su-30MKI will have more flexibility due to more HPs and no drop tanks.




What r these missile


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## WiderMan

On the NVG grind

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## WiderMan

5ers going about their usual.

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## Talon



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## WiderMan

https://imgur.com/hkJDjNk

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## Windjammer

Griffins on Finals.

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## DrWatson775

With the US recently reporting progress in talks with the Taliban, progress should be expected in fulfillment of defense contracts with US - and the possibility of more F16s if PAF still wants more than a hundred of these fighters. I remember a high level team of PAF meeting PM last year and it would be safe to assume important decisions regarding replacement of F7s and Mirages would have been made. I believe - and it is just an opinion - that PAF is highly likely to procure more fighters (be it F16s or otherwise) as complete replacement of old fighters with JF17 is not getting done fast enough. I may be wrong and PAF may have decided to sit tight.

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## araz

DrWatson775 said:


> With the US recently reporting progress in talks with the Taliban, progress should be expected in fulfillment of defense contracts with US - and the possibility of more F16s if PAF still wants more than a hundred of these fighters. I remember a high level team of PAF meeting PM last year and it would be safe to assume important decisions regarding replacement of F7s and Mirages would have been made. I believe - and it is just an opinion - that PAF is highly likely to procure more fighters (be it F16s or otherwise) as complete replacement of old fighters with JF17 is not getting done fast enough. I may be wrong and PAF may have decided to sit tight.


All depends on the progress and evaluation of block 3 and Progress on Project Azm in my view. However PAF may not be averse to older frames which could be upgradeable.
A

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## mingle

DrWatson775 said:


> With the US recently reporting progress in talks with the Taliban, progress should be expected in fulfillment of defense contracts with US - and the possibility of more F16s if PAF still wants more than a hundred of these fighters. I remember a high level team of PAF meeting PM last year and it would be safe to assume important decisions regarding replacement of F7s and Mirages would have been made. I believe - and it is just an opinion - that PAF is highly likely to procure more fighters (be it F16s or otherwise) as complete replacement of old fighters with JF17 is not getting done fast enough. I may be wrong and PAF may have decided to sit tight.


There are hundreds used airframe for sale 28 from Norway Jordan even US herself if PAF and Govt play smart Get as many as they can to replace mirages and F7 and ask US Govt to upgrade whole PAF fleet to V we looking Billions here too for US old F16s are quick and cheap replacement for these F7and mirages


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## khanasifm

mingle said:


> There are hundreds used airframe for sale 28 from Norway Jordan even US herself if PAF and Govt play smart Get as many as they can to replace mirages and F7 and ask US Govt to upgrade whole PAF fleet to V we looking Billions here too for US old F16s are quick and cheap replacement for these F7and mirages



You need US approval if they blocked Jordan last time they can do same again 

Bottom line Chinese options is best way its no strings attached and it’s also req $$$ for used ot new options and so far jf program has full focus there is now way paf can order more than sqn per year even usaf cannot replace their old airframes per their wishes and has to live within their budget 

End of story there are lot of paper tigers on this forum who all day long propose solutions with no check book

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## Raider 21

khanasifm said:


> You need US approval if they blocked Jordan last time they can do same again
> 
> Bottom line Chinese options is best way its no strings attached and it’s also req $$$ for used ot new options and so far jf program has full focus there is now way paf can order more than sqn per year even usaf cannot replace their old airframes per their wishes and has to live within their budget
> 
> End of story there are lot of paper tigers on this forum who all day long propose solutions with no check book


Chinese options do have strings attached. Otherwise J-10s would've been flying in Pakistani skies with Western incorporated modifications.

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## Silicon0000

Knuckles said:


> Chinese options do have strings attached. Otherwise J-10s would've been flying in Pakistani skies with Western incorporated modifications.




Western Incorporated modifications is a string attached on both side.

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## khanasifm

Db-110 on f-16 and ground clearance

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## mingle

khanasifm said:


> You need US approval if they blocked Jordan last time they can do same again
> 
> Bottom line Chinese options is best way its no strings attached and it’s also req $$$ for used ot new options and so far jf program has full focus there is now way paf can order more than sqn per year even usaf cannot replace their old airframes per their wishes and has to live within their budget
> 
> End of story there are lot of paper tigers on this forum who all day long propose solutions with no check book


Pak needs a good diplomacy and also help US in Afghanistan plus Pak is very crucial for West and Mideast when Iran comes So far we catering on all fronts let's hope deal happens between US and Talibs So CSF issue resolve along military deals.
Pak should go after F15E or F18 super Hornet 35 - 45 with Pratt Whitney engines along Used F16 Get whole fleet upgrade to V this will give Pak space for blk 3 and Azam induction. Boeing is looking for potential buyers and in crisis also one reason for offering F15E to PAF. We should stay optimistic and also use diplomacy to get what we want not assumptions. I believe decisions already made what Pak is after when IK along Hafeez Sheikh visited AHQ what Pak is after I believe its US plane and it would be surprise if CSF issue resolved it Won't be a problem for Pak to induct US jets.



Knuckles said:


> Chinese options do have strings attached. Otherwise J-10s would've been flying in Pakistani skies with Western incorporated modifications.


Also we should not all the eggs in same basket China is good but not alternate to US. We need US on our side for trade and tech.


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## Chak Bamu

mingle said:


> Pak needs a good diplomacy and also help US in Afghanistan plus Pak is very crucial for West and Mideast when Iran comes So far we catering on all fronts let's hope deal happens between US and Talibs So CSF issue resolve along military deals.
> Pak should go after F15E or F18 super Hornet 35 - 45 with Pratt Whitney engines along Used F16 Get whole fleet upgrade to V this will give Pak space for blk 3 and Azam induction. Boeing is looking for potential buyers and in crisis also one reason for offering F15E to PAF. We should stay optimistic and also use diplomacy to get what we want not assumptions. I believe decisions already made what Pak is after when IK along Hafeez Sheikh visited AHQ what Pak is after I believe its US plane and it would be surprise if CSF issue resolved it Won't be a problem for Pak to induct US jets.
> 
> 
> Also we should not all the eggs in same basket China is good but not alternate to US. We need US on our side for trade and tech.



I am tired of these wet-dreams. Where is the money? How long can Pakistan pretend to be important for USA or anyone else, when own home is in such disorder? Where is the growth? where is the HDI? where is the hope to be able to pay for F-15E & F-18 Super Hornet & what-not? Come on man, get real. JF-17 is all that there is & not much else for now.

Pakistan lacks the well-ordered institutional framework that may help Pakistan progress. Neither is there any hope to improve labor (agriculture, manufacturing, services) productivity. These are the two things needed for economic growth. There is no hope for anything beyond a sustained 3-4% growth as things stand (even much lower now), even if PA takes a back-seat in policy & decision-making. Stop touting Pakistan's strategic location (read: Afghanistan's nuisance value, Chinese proximity, & India's access to its immediate West) because Pakistan already has what it can get out of the first two & leveraging the third would require peace & change in policy (not happening anytime soon).

Forget F-16s. Any old ones coming PAF's way would be a bonus. That is it.

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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> Chinese options do have strings attached. Otherwise J-10s would've been flying in Pakistani skies with Western incorporated modifications.



Hi,

Pakistanis never knew how to talk to either the chinese or the americans---. The J10 B was available a few years ago---. The C is available if Paf wants it---. The problem is with the Paf and not china---.

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## kursed

From what I can tell, PAF wants to avoid, until the last moment, the additional expenses involved with adding an entirely new aircraft type to Pakistani ORBAT. Specially when capability set offered is not massively different from what they already have. 

They want used / new F-16s primarily cos we can absorb them better. And they are waiting until the air clears up, to see where we stand with the Americans. But yes, do think we'd have a decision on this by mid-year. They can only delay it as much.

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## mingle

kursed said:


> From what I can tell, PAF wants to avoid, until the last moment, the additional expenses involved with adding an entirely new aircraft type to Pakistani ORBAT. Specially when capability set offered is not massively different from what they already have.
> 
> They want used / new F-16s primarily cos we can absorb them better. And they are waiting until the air clears up, to see where we stand with the Americans. But yes, do think we'd have a decision on this by mid-year. They can only delay it as much.


Thanks Sir Hafeez Sheikh is key man here as FM.His visit along PM was V important I don't think PAF would go Russian or EU option. Italian EF taken by Eygpt along Navel vessels I don't know what they are up too? From where they getting money Faloss??Italy eygpt total weapon package is about 9 billions$$ including EF


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## jupiter2007

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pakistanis never knew how to talk to either the chinese or the americans---. The J10 B was available a few years ago---. The C is available if Paf wants it---. The problem is with the Paf and not china---.




Maybe they are waiting for this.

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## Aliph Ahmed

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pakistanis never knew how to talk to either the chinese or the americans---. The J10 B was available a few years ago---. The C is available if Paf wants it---. The problem is with the Paf and not china---.



Pakistan do not need j10 when they have tailor made jf17 which is almost as good as a j10. Two planes with overlapping characteristics is not worth it.

Jf17 block 3 is on its way to be a more capable fighter than f16.

What pakistan need is j31. Unfortunately, current j31 bleeds energy when it comes to STR. Hence, project Azm which in my opinion will be j31 with PAF specific enhancements.

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## ARMalik

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Pakistan do not need j10 when they have tailor made jf17 which is almost as good as a j10. Two planes with overlapping characteristics is not worth it.
> 
> Jf17 block 3 is on its way to be a more capable fighter than f16.
> 
> What pakistan need is j31. Unfortunately, current j31 bleeds energy when it comes to STR. Hence, project Azm which in my opinion will be j31 with PAF specific enhancements.



Hey mate, weren't you a senior member here - what happened to your original account?

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## MastanKhan

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Pakistan do not need j10 when they have tailor made jf17 which is almost as good as a j10. Two planes with overlapping characteristics is not worth it.
> 
> Jf17 block 3 is on its way to be a more capable fighter than f16.
> 
> What pakistan need is j31. Unfortunately, current j31 bleeds energy when it comes to STR. Hence, project Azm which in my opinion will be j31 with PAF specific enhancements.



Hi

understand numbers. Pakistan is 150 frontline aircraft short at this moment.

Think with your brain and nit with your feet.

you have to feed 250 people and you only have food for 100 now give your explanation to the hungry crowd in front of you and tell them that 150 Rotis are not going to do anything and see what they do to you. They are the same as 100 Rotis that we have.

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## mingle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi
> 
> understand numbers. Pakistan is 150 frontline aircraft short at this moment.
> 
> Think with your brain and nit with your feet.
> 
> you have to feed 250 people and you only have food for 100 now give your explanation to the hungry crowd in front of you and tell them that 150 Rotis are not going to do anything and see what they do to you. They are the same as 100 Rotis that we have.


 MK What ever PAF decided cat will out very soon may be next few months and I believe it's American Billa not Chinese or EU cat. F18 Super hornet is good option also affordable Kuwait bought 28 of them about 2 billion it very feasible for PAF or PN along used F16s with AESA. Every one is waiting for deal in Afghanistan after that CSF funds will be available for Pakistan.

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## Tank131

J-10 will be bought as a last resort. If F-16 pans out (which is a big if, especially after feb 2019) they will likely be used models which will have an even smaller chance of being upgraded to V. If PN is lucky, US wont object to a turkish aesa upgrade but that is even less likely than the V upgrade. The most likely senario with F-16 will be sale of used from Jordan and possibly USAF stock and upgrades to current PAF standard with possible sale of MORE AMRAAM. But that is the best case senario.

Most likely PAF will continue on with JF-17. It may join TF-X OR get J-31 in small numbers while continuing to work on AZM.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Pakistani response  will come after Trump's India visit to see if there will be a peace plan of lifetime like the one he proposed to Palestine

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tank131 said:


> J-10 will be bought as a last resort. If F-16 pans out (which is a big if, especially after feb 2019) they will likely be used models which will have an even smaller chance of being upgraded to V. If PN is lucky, US wont object to a turkish aesa upgrade but that is even less likely than the V upgrade. The most likely senario with F-16 will be sale of used from Jordan and possibly USAF stock and upgrades to current PAF standard with possible sale of MORE AMRAAM. But that is the best case senario.
> 
> *Most likely PAF will continue on with JF-17. It may join TF-X OR get J-31 in small numbers while continuing to work on AZM.*


It's basically the part in bold. Getting the most out of the JF-17 is currently the most cost-effective option, and -- while not ideal -- offers enough of a defensive capability. Not only that, but the PAF is evidently squeezing every savings it can get -- e.g., stick to a Chinese AESA radar and pick up mass-produced Chinese AAMs -- with JF-17. 

Whatever money the PAF could have spent on an off-the-shelf fighter (e.g., $200-400 m a year for 10 years) will work into the development of Project AZM. And, to be frank, unless the US heavily subsidizes a F-16 deal for us, I don't think the PAF will let a dollar meant for AZM go to the US.

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's basically the part in bold. Getting the most out of the JF-17 is currently the most cost-effective option, and -- while not ideal -- offers enough of a defensive capability. Not only that, but the PAF is evidently squeezing every savings it can get -- e.g., stick to a Chinese AESA radar and pick up mass-produced Chinese AAMs -- with JF-17.
> 
> Whatever money the PAF could have spent on an off-the-shelf fighter (e.g., $200-400 m a year for 10 years) will work into the development of Project AZM. And, to be frank, unless the US heavily subsidizes a F-16 deal for us, I don't think the PAF will let a dollar meant for AZM go to the US.


Bilal if US offer F15x to replace AZM what Ur take??except stealth its at par with 5th Gen jetts along F35 for future F16 replacement? Something big about to happen my feelings.PAF another option TFX or J31 too??

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## Trailer23

jupiter2007 said:


> Maybe they are waiting for this.
> View attachment 606228


Now where have I seen that air intake before...
...
Oh yeah...

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## mingle

AZADPAKISTAN2009 said:


> Pakistani response  will come after Trump's India visit to see if there will be a peace plan of lifetime like the one he proposed to Palestine


India not buying any thing big from US on Trump visit just 6 more Apachi and AD system not big as india and US point of view.



Tank131 said:


> J-10 will be bought as a last resort. If F-16 pans out (which is a big if, especially after feb 2019) they will likely be used models which will have an even smaller chance of being upgraded to V. If PN is lucky, US wont object to a turkish aesa upgrade but that is even less likely than the V upgrade. The most likely senario with F-16 will be sale of used from Jordan and possibly USAF stock and upgrades to current PAF standard with possible sale of MORE AMRAAM. But that is the best case senario.
> 
> Most likely PAF will continue on with JF-17. It may join TF-X OR get J-31 in small numbers while continuing to work on AZM.


We see things according to Pak point of view not US. it's US interest Pak buy new plane from them that's what there profit and jobs are not used airframe So compromise is Old and New togather Win Win for both parties


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## Tank131

mingle said:


> India not buying any thing big from US on Trump visit just 6 more Apachi and AD system not big as india and US point of view.
> 
> 
> We see things according to Pak point of view not US. it's US interest Pak buy new plane from them that's what there profit and jobs are not used airframe So compromise is Old and New togather Win Win for both parties




There is a profit standpoint and a geostrategic standpoint. From the US perspective, a strong Pakistan that is able to stand against India is not something the US wants. For whatever reason, the US believes India is the future of an Asia that is still subservient to US and China is not going to allow it, so it will act in India's interest. As such they dont want Pakistan to be strong, but at the same time they want it on the hook and dont want to let it go completely. They also dont want India to be without its own counterweight (Pakistan). As such they will provide just enough to give India a black eye and not be able to completely dominate Pakistan, but not enough for Pakistan to be feeling secure vis a vis India.

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## mingle

Tank131 said:


> There is a profit standpoint and a geostrategic standpoint. From the US perspective, a strong Pakistan that is able to stand against India is not something the US wants. For whatever reason, the US believes India is the future of an Asia that is still subservient to US and China is not going to allow it, so it will act in India's interest. As such they dont want Pakistan to be strong, but at the same time they want it on the hook and dont want to let it go completely. They also dont want India to be without its own counterweight (Pakistan). As such they will provide just enough to give India a black eye and not be able to completely dominate Pakistan, but not enough for Pakistan to be feeling secure vis a vis India.


Wrong Pak is check over india from west and US. You think they will leave India like China to grow without any check on him. No not at all.India has future subject to peace with Pak and return back to prural India what Nehru or Gandhi thought not Modi india.Modi India has no future.

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## Tank131

mingle said:


> Wrong Pak is check over india from west and US. You think they will leave India like China to grow without any check on him. No not at all.India has future subject to peace with Pak and return back to prural India what Nehru or Gandhi thought not Modi india.Modi India has no future.


Please re-read my post. I said they also dont want india to grow unchecked and will arm Pakistan enough to give a black eye but not enough the it will ever be secure enough to stand toe to toe with India conventionally. They want enough fear of India to keep Pakistan in check and vis a versa.

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## PakFactor

Tank131 said:


> Please re-read my post. I said they also dont want india to grow unchecked and will arm Pakistan enough to give a black eye but not enough the it will ever be secure enough to stand toe to toe with India conventionally. They want enough fear of India to keep Pakistan in check and vis a versa.



Which isn’t going to happen, as long we stay in China camp and then acquire enough armament to try and tilt the balance in our favor. Similar to how Russia was selling evyething to India we need to do the same with China.


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## Tank131

PakFactor said:


> Wish isn’t going to happen, as long we stay in China camp and then acquire enough armament to try and tilt the balance in our favor. Similar to how Russia was selling evyething to India we need to do the same with China.



If Pakistan arms itself via china then US has no reason to arm it as well. Its all about maintaining a precise conventional balance (tilted 70/30 to india) for the US. If china doesnt make up the deficit the US may sell. If it does, the US wont. Earning a few billion via pakistan is nothing to the US. It will give what it needs to maintain influence and not a cent more. I cant believe you guys still dont understand that.

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## Aliph Ahmed

ARMalik said:


> Hey mate, weren't you a senior member here - what happened to your original account?



I was not active for at least 6-7 years. I guess account got clean. But i am now back!

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## salman-1

We shouldn't be going for F18s or F15s in any way, as it would be a trap for Paf for keep begging for parts and services for next 2 decades. Already maintaing F16s is quite enough for Paf. I don't thing project azm will mature In next 10 years, at the end a part of it will only come out as avionics package for f31s. Chinese and Pakistani mix of technologies to be incorporated in a better version of F31

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## mingle

salman-1 said:


> We shouldn't be going for F18s or F15s in any way, as it would be a trap for Paf for keep begging for parts and services for next 2 decades. Already maintaing F16s is quite enough for Paf. I don't thing project azm will mature In next 10 years, at the end a part of it will only come out as avionics package for f31s. Chinese and Pakistani mix of technologies to be incorporated in a better version of F31


So it is safe to assume PAF would be future mini PLAF not wise at all keeping all eggs in one basket we need to keep balance between west and east I hope PAF will do it.


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## ARMalik

Aliph Ahmed said:


> I was not active for at least 6-7 years. I guess account got clean. But i am now back!



Cool - welcome back !

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## mshan44



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## Incog_nito

Is PAF looking to buy another 32+ F-16s Block-52/72 from USA?

And what about PAF looking to buy some additional used F-16A/Bs from USA or other Air Forces?

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## denel

IM Ozair said:


> Is PAF looking to buy another 32+ F-16s Block-52/72 from USA?
> 
> And what about PAF looking to buy some additional used F-16A/Bs from USA or other Air Forces?


It is not happening. TiT is Modi kissing so nothing will happen;

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## Silicon0000

IM Ozair said:


> Is PAF looking to buy another 32+ F-16s Block-52/72 from USA?
> 
> And what about PAF looking to buy some additional used F-16A/Bs from USA or other Air Forces?



Nothing but wet dreams of fanboys.

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## Nomad40

Silicon0000 said:


> Nothing but wet dreams of fanboys.


My f-16 boys need a reality check

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## Bossman

We might get a surprise

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## ziaulislam

IM Ozair said:


> Is PAF looking to buy another 32+ F-16s Block-52/72 from USA?
> 
> And what about PAF looking to buy some additional used F-16A/Bs from USA or other Air Forces?


Where is the money sir?


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## mingle

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> My f-16 boys need a reality check


May be he is insider knows what he talking about???


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## Nomad40

mingle said:


> May be he is insider knows what he talking about???


No (new) f-16 end of story

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## Signalian

IM Ozair said:


> Is PAF looking to buy another 32+ F-16s Block-52/72 from USA?
> 
> And what about PAF looking to buy some additional used F-16A/Bs from USA or other Air Forces?


Yes PAF has the option to get 18 F-16 Block 52+ under $5.1 Billion aid program through FMS but FMS assistance or full payment comes up as bottle neck.

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## GriffinsRule

Signalian said:


> Yes PAF has the option to get 18 F-16 Block 52+ under $5.1 Billion aid program through FMS but FMS assistance or full payment comes up as bottle neck.


That option expired a long time ago


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## Tank131

Signalian said:


> Yes PAF has the option to get 18 F-16 Block 52+ under $5.1 Billion aid program through FMS but FMS assistance or full payment comes up as bottle neck.



That has long since expired. The option for F-16 is apparently there, just not usong FMS or aid. In other words, PAF would have to pay full price which it wont do for Blk 52+ and probably cant do if blk 72 is on the table. It is better to put money towards Azm with eyes to cooperate with Turkey or China on their respective FGFA projects.

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## khanasifm

The last 8 f-16 were a joint paf and LM proposal to use coalition support funds towards f-16 buy so paf was responsible for ~250 million and remainder were support funds 

Now paf can pay same amount to buy full sqn strength of jf and if full amount of ~1 B meaning 2.5 t 3 sqn of jf

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## Talon

Feel the heat

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## Signalian

GriffinsRule said:


> That option expired a long time ago





Tank131 said:


> That has long since expired. The option for F-16 is apparently there, just not usong FMS or aid. In other words, PAF would have to pay full price which it wont do for Blk 52+ and probably cant do if blk 72 is on the table. It is better to put money towards Azm with eyes to cooperate with Turkey or China on their respective FGFA projects.


If that is your take on it, then must be true, wont refute it. I have been told otherwise. It was discussed before also.


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## Shabi1

Trailer23 said:


> Now where have I seen that air intake before...
> ...
> Oh yeah...


Yep testbed for X-32 JSF entry by Boeing.

This and the AFTI V canards didnt progress further because both sacrifice the chin intakes which have more practical use.


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## Ali_Baba

New build F16s make no sense for PAF now given how long it takes to manufacture and deliver one. A lot of politics can happen in that time, to delay or stop delivery. Not worth the financial risk.

Best option, if it is available is to pick up 2nd units and have them delivered quickly etc. Work with Turkey on upgrades.

Old = best for PAF in this case, New = a disaster..

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## mingle

Ali_Baba said:


> New build F16s make no sense for PAF now given how long it takes to manufacture and deliver one. A lot of politics can happen in that time, to delay or stop delivery. Not worth the financial risk.
> 
> Best option, if it is available is to pick up 2nd units and have them delivered quickly etc. Work with Turkey on upgrades.
> 
> Old = best for PAF in this case, New = a disaster..


Or New off the shelf and used as many as we can get along V AESA upgrades yes alot of AMRAAM Rrounds


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## cloud4000

Interesting conversations about getting fighters from US, ranging from zero chance to anything Pakistan wants. Of course, the answer is probably in the middle.

But whatever Pakistan, it better start seriously lobby Congress, since the control both permissions and funding. Forget what Trump might agree to, but it’s ultimately Congress that decides.

Still, I can see at least the AH-1zs being delivered soon after a peace deal is signed with Taliban.

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## mingle

cloud4000 said:


> Interesting conversations about getting fighters from US, ranging from zero chance to anything Pakistan wants. Of course, the answer is probably in the middle.
> 
> But whatever Pakistan, it better start seriously lobby Congress, since the control both permissions and funding. Forget what Trump might agree to, but it’s ultimately Congress that decides.
> 
> Still, I can see at least the AH-1zs being delivered soon after a peace deal is signed with Taliban.


Congress is not issue all the time deal between Pak and US usually get through Congress issue is price and payment.PA


cloud4000 said:


> Interesting conversations about getting fighters from US, ranging from zero chance to anything Pakistan wants. Of course, the answer is probably in the middle.
> 
> But whatever Pakistan, it better start seriously lobby Congress, since the control both permissions and funding. Forget what Trump might agree to, but it’s ultimately Congress that decides.
> 
> Still, I can see at least the AH-1zs being delivered soon after a peace deal is signed with Taliban.


So far Govt is sitting tight let's see what comes out from box as one respected member @Knuckles last Year IK trip to DC US offered F15 E to PAF. LM is doing fine with F35 and still F16 is selling like hott cakes its Boeing which needs orders like they cutting down production of F18 super Hornets. Not many F15 E orders in pipeline. Let's see what PAF after this time door is open for PAF. PAF wants payment through CSF which needs to be resolve after peace deal I believe this issue will resolve as well its about 8-10 billions

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## mshan44

F-16AM from Squadron # 9 “GRIFFINS” performing over Sargodha at 09:00 hours ♥️

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## Myth_buster_1

mingle said:


> Congress is not issue all the time deal between Pak and US usually get through Congress issue is price and payment.PA
> 
> So far Govt is sitting tight let's see what comes out from box as one respected member @Knuckles last Year IK trip to DC US offered F15 E to PAF. LM is doing fine with F35 and still F16 is selling like hott cakes its Boeing which needs orders like they cutting down production of F18 super Hornets. Not many F15 E orders in pipeline. Let's see what PAF after this time door is open for PAF. PAF wants payment through CSF which needs to be resolve after peace deal I believe this issue will resolve as well its about 8-10 billions



U do not know how much US has been Indianfied! Unless US wants to upset their big market India, no F-16s or even AH-1 from uncle sam.

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## Haris Ali2140

Myth_buster_1 said:


> U do not know how much US has been Indianfied! Unless US wants to upset their big market India, no F-16s or even AH-1 from uncle sam.



US is not dependent on India. Its the otherway around. Last time Congress blocked the sale but we still got F-16s from Jordan and got them MLUed.

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## Myth_buster_1

Haris Ali2140 said:


> US is not dependent on India. Its the otherway around. Last time Congress blocked the sale but we still got F-16s from Jordan and got them MLUed.



This was 10 years ago and today Indian lobby is 10 times stronger! You do not know how many important positions Indian origin hold in US government and businesses, and US is in a stage that it would never jeopardize their relationship with India. 
Next time Pakistan gets something from US is when they need Pakistan to do their dirty work.

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## The Eagle

cloud4000 said:


> Forget what Trump might agree to, but it’s ultimately Congress that decides.



Just to put a hold on this narrative, POTUS can overpass congress in this case. Ref: last KSA selling. The issue isn't either POTUS or Congress but more about paying upfront as compare to utilizing FMS & CSF.

Regards,

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## StormBreaker

The Eagle said:


> Just to put a hold on this narrative, POTUS can overpass congress in this case. Ref: last KSA selling. The issue isn't either POTUS or Congress but more about paying upfront as compare to utilizing FMS & CSF.
> 
> Regards,


I still believe in Sir Khafee, things are really complicated between Pak and US but nothing that a deal couldn’t come out of, do you still see a dim hope as well ?

I don’t see india further pursuing any aircraft from USA tho. Neither F-18 or F-21/15

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## The Eagle

StormBreaker said:


> I still believe in Sir Khafee, things are really complicated between Pak and US but nothing that a deal couldn’t come out of, do you still see a dim hope as well ?
> 
> I don’t see india further pursuing any aircraft from USA tho. Neither F-18 or F-21/15



Don't want to throw a spanner in already confused debate but one thing is for sure that the issue will remain in regard to paying upfront viz a viz utilizing fund money. If it ever came to materialize, the issue of money will be there. However, there are issues such as Afghanistan Peace Deal etc that we can refer to press upon such possibility. The deal as such depends upon US benefit. If Washington sees the benefit, it will go through by one way or another and then may be described as balancing the power in region which is never a primary case of these sales.

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## Haris Ali2140

Myth_buster_1 said:


> This was 10 years ago and today Indian lobby is 10 times stronger! You do not know how many important positions Indian origin hold in US government and businesses, and US is in a stage that it would never jeopardize their relationship with India.
> Next time Pakistan gets something from US is when they need Pakistan to do their dirty work.


And we are doing that dirty work by bringing Talibans to table and then giving a route for US to pull out its equipment out.


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## KhanBaba2

The Eagle said:


> Don't want to throw a spanner in already confused debate but one thing is for sure that the issue will remain in regard to paying upfront viz a viz utilizing fund money. If it ever came to materialize, the issue of money will be there.



If the issue was only money, Pakistan would not have had problem with the engines of T-129. 

More than procuring F-16, Pakistan needs to procure BVR missiles for them. All of Pakistan's BVR missiles for F-16 are from a single 10 year old order. Those missiles have a shelf life. And if not replenished, would lead to a severe decrease in effectiveness of the entire fleet.


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## airomerix

KhanBaba2 said:


> If the issue was only money, Pakistan would not have had problem with the engines of T-129.
> 
> More than procuring F-16, Pakistan needs to procure BVR missiles for them. All of Pakistan's BVR missiles for F-16 are from a single 10 year old order. Those missiles have a shelf life. And if not replenished, would lead to a severe decrease in effectiveness of the entire fleet.



Nope.

PAF has a dedicated ordnance maintenance depot that specialized in AMRAAM back in 2006 to service AMRAAMs. Battery replacement, electronics overhaul and rocket fuel replacement (it has solid fuel) are some of the things they do. Hence Shelf life will not be an issue for decades to come.

Air life, however, might cause concerns after 10 years or so due to 1800 hrs of air life for each AMRAAM shell. And PAF cannot manufacture the missile shell and replace it. Fortunately, the rotation of missiles is a regular practice and each missile has not even reached half of 1800 hrs of flight time since induction.

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## The Eagle

KhanBaba2 said:


> If the issue was only money, Pakistan would not have had problem with the engines of T-129.



T-129 Engine issue is between Turkey & US. Pakistan is a customer for Turkey. Engine sale denied by US for the Turkey and Pakistan is not buying T-129 ATAK engine directly from US. I don't know what's so hard to understand in this unless you have no interest to consider the facts instead brought illogical explanation to the matter in hand. Not everything deserves denial just for the sake of it or it's about Pakistan. Also, try to search and read about last undelivered birds whereby the offer existed & approved but we didn't want to pay fully and discussed to compensate FMS/CSF.

Rest of the post is already explained by @airomerix

Regards,

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## m52k85

airomerix said:


> Nope.
> 
> PAF has a dedicated ordnance maintenance depot that specialized in AMRAAM back in 2006


 Is it OEM supported? Rocket fuel composition is specialized, and changing that will change launch parameters..



airomerix said:


> Fortunately, the rotation of missiles is a regular practice and each missile has not even reached half of 1800 hrs of flight time since induction.


Thanks. I would hazard a guess that they wouldnt even have reached 25% since we dont see f-16s flying with live rounds in peace time, that would mean flight time wise we are safe vis carrier aircraft airframe life.


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## KhanBaba2

The Eagle said:


> T-129 Engine issue is between Turkey & US. Pakistan is a customer for Turkey. Engine sale denied by US for the Turkey and Pakistan is not buying T-129 ATAK engine directly from US. I don't know what's so hard to understand in this unless you have no interest to consider the facts instead brought illogical explanation to the matter in hand. Not everything deserves denial just for the sake of it or it's about Pakistan. Also, try to search and read about last undelivered birds whereby the offer existed & approved but we didn't want to pay fully and discussed to compensate FMS/CSF.
> 
> Rest of the post is already explained by @airomerix
> 
> Regards,



And what about the 12 AH−1Z Viper. They have nothing to do with Turkey. And they have nothing to do with cash. You are paying the full cost for them.

I already thanked airomerix for the information he gave.


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## StormBreaker

KhanBaba2 said:


> And what about the 12 AH−1Z Viper. They have nothing to do with Turkey. And they have nothing to do with cash. You are paying the full cost for them.
> 
> I already thanked airomerix for the information he gave.


You will be surprised soon  

@Mangus Ortus Novem IA

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## araz

KhanBaba2 said:


> And what about the 12 AH−1Z Viper. They have nothing to do with Turkey. And they have nothing to do with cash. You are paying the full cost for them.
> 
> I already thanked airomerix for the information he gave.


They have everything to do with cash(FMS vs sovereign funds) as did the 8F16 deal. please do not distort facts.

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## The Eagle

KhanBaba2 said:


> And what about the 12 AH−1Z Viper. They have nothing to do with Turkey. And they have nothing to do with cash. You are paying the full cost for them.
> 
> I already thanked airomerix for the information he gave.



Let's stop going in rounds & rounds for nothing. The topic in hand is all about F-16 purchase from US, the offer & the reason why PAF can't buy. AH-1Zs were also part of same FMS and you wouldn't ignore the fact that relations gone in shambles in past, did affect such procurement. F-16s offer remained valid for specific period and PAF was supposed to reply in Aye or Nay but the problem of funds did make it into no more F-16s. PAF argument was in view of WoT fund post Peace Gate.



araz said:


> They have everything to do with cash(FMS vs sovereign funds) as did the 8F16 deal. please do not distort facts.



Distort not unless satisfied, Sir.

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## airomerix

m52k85 said:


> Is it OEM supported? Rocket fuel composition is specialized, and changing that will change launch parameters..



Yes it is 100% OEM supported. 

US has not halted Pakistan's F-16 sustainment program due to strong protest lodged before buying the Block 52's back in 2005. And trust me when I say this, the guys at Lockheed were embarrassed. Their lobbies work in great favor for Pakistan in Congress to date. Some written agreements were also signed back then for continuity of sustainment program as long as Pakistan was not blacklisted or earns the status of a 'failed state'. There is a reason why keep spotting our C-130's at Denver AFB, embargo or not. 



> Thanks. I would hazard a guess that they wouldnt even have reached 25% since we dont see f-16s flying with live rounds in peace time, that would mean flight time wise we are safe vis carrier aircraft airframe life.



The air life is a highly classified information. We cannot know for sure if it is 25% or 50% in this point in time. 

However, the best I know is, we are good to go for the next 15 years on average before the first of the missiles come close to the 1800 hrs mark. This calculation takes into account full scale standoffs with frequent CAP times.



KhanBaba2 said:


> And what about the 12 AH−1Z Viper. They have nothing to do with Turkey. And they have nothing to do with cash. You are paying the full cost for them.
> 
> I already thanked airomerix for the information he gave.



US would sell Pakistan F-35's if we had the buck. 

When Congress puts embargo on Pakistan and halts such contracts, it takes a toll on US jobs. And they dont want to lose their seats in their home states. 

The Zulu's are coming. Whether you like it or not.

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## StormBreaker

airomerix said:


> Yes it is 100% OEM supported.
> 
> US has not halted Pakistan's F-16 sustainment program due to strong protest lodged before buying the Block 52's back in 2005. And trust me when I say this, the guys at Lockheed were embarrassed. Their lobbies work in great favor for Pakistan in Congress to date. Some written agreements were also signed back then for continuity of sustainment program as long as Pakistan was not blacklisted or earns the status of a 'failed state'. There is a reason why keep spotting our C-130's at Denver AFB, embargo or not.
> 
> 
> 
> The air life is a highly classified information. We cannot know for sure if it is 25% or 50% in this point in time.
> 
> However, the best I know is, we are good to go for the next 15 years on average before the first of the missiles come close to the 1800 hrs mark. This calculation takes into account full scale standoffs with frequent CAP times.
> 
> 
> 
> US would sell Pakistan F-35's if we had the buck.
> 
> When Congress puts embargo on Pakistan and halts such contracts, it takes a toll on US jobs. And they dont want to lose their seats in their home states.
> 
> The Zulu's are coming. Whether you like it or not.


Zulus are coming *very* *very* soon right ? 



airomerix said:


> Yes it is 100% OEM supported.
> 
> US has not halted Pakistan's F-16 sustainment program due to strong protest lodged before buying the Block 52's back in 2005. And trust me when I say this, the guys at Lockheed were embarrassed. Their lobbies work in great favor for Pakistan in Congress to date. Some written agreements were also signed back then for continuity of sustainment program as long as Pakistan was not blacklisted or earns the status of a 'failed state'. There is a reason why keep spotting our C-130's at Denver AFB, embargo or not.
> 
> 
> 
> The air life is a highly classified information. We cannot know for sure if it is 25% or 50% in this point in time.
> 
> However, the best I know is, we are good to go for the next 15 years on average before the first of the missiles come close to the 1800 hrs mark. This calculation takes into account full scale standoffs with frequent CAP times.
> 
> 
> 
> US would sell Pakistan F-35's if we had the buck.
> 
> When Congress puts embargo on Pakistan and halts such contracts, it takes a toll on US jobs. And they dont want to lose their seats in their home states.
> 
> The Zulu's are coming. Whether you like it or not.


And bro, kindly avoid getting into numeric details such as the matters of air life. Although not very important topic at the moment, but gives hints to others...

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## mingle

Myth_buster_1 said:


> U do not know how much US has been Indianfied! Unless US wants to upset their big market India, no F-16s or even AH-1 from uncle sam.


India buying LCA not western Jett proved me correct with current economic crisis they can't afford any western Jett


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## Pakistani Fighter

KhanBaba2 said:


> If the issue was only money, Pakistan would not have had problem with the engines of T-129.
> 
> More than procuring F-16, Pakistan needs to procure BVR missiles for them. All of Pakistan's BVR missiles for F-16 are from a single 10 year old order. Those missiles have a shelf life. And if not replenished, would lead to a severe decrease in effectiveness of the entire fleet.


I hope we Get Our F16s Upgraded with AIM 120Ds.



airomerix said:


> The Zulu's are coming. Whether you like it or not.

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## mingle

@Khafee stands correct about Zulus I hope his other news will stand correct but instead of Blk 72 I would prefer F15E or F18 in same numbers. This will end the quest for deep strike Jett along used F16s with V upgrades. If PAF play smart we can hunt two birds with one arrow more used F16 with whole fleet V upgrade and about 36 F15E or F18super hornets for deep strike and maritime.


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## StormBreaker

mingle said:


> @Khafee stands correct about Zulus I hope his other news will stand correct but instead of Blk 72 I would prefer F15E or F18 in same numbers. This will end the quest for deep strike Jett along used F16s with V upgrades. If PAF play smart we can hunt two birds with one arrow


Come on 
No to F-15 or 18, for that we would need up gradations in current facilities to facilitate the maintenance as well as stock up spares in case of sanctions. Secondly, USA won’t give us such and neither do we have the capacity to buy it.

PERIOD

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## Pakistani Fighter

mingle said:


> deep strike Jett


RA'AD is enough. India has good AD System. Not easy for deep strike unless the jet is Fifth Generation


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## mingle

StormBreaker said:


> Come on
> No to F-15 or 18, for that we would need up gradations in current facilities to facilitate the maintenance as well as stock up spares in case of sanctions. Secondly, USA won’t give us such and neither do we have the capacity to buy it.Qatar buying around 4 billion whole package blk 72 is not cheap either.
> 
> PERIOD


F15-18 not expensive pretty much at range of Blk 72 with F16 engine it won't be an issue spares are not issue as well friendly countries have them also U can make it part of deal.



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> RA'AD is enough. India has good AD System. Not easy for deep strike unless the jet is Fifth Generation


We still need dedicated deep strike platform twin engine.


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## Pakistani Fighter

mingle said:


> need dedicated deep strike platform


For deep sea strike carrying heavy AshMs. Yes


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## Goku

mingle said:


> F15-18 not expensive pretty much at range of Blk 72 with F16 engine it won't be an issue spares are not issue as well friendly countries have them also U can make it part of deal.
> 
> 
> We still need dedicated deep strike platform twin engine.


Did u see the price of Qatari F15 deal? 12 billion for 36


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## mingle

Goku said:


> Did u see the price of Qatari F15 deal? 12 billion for 36


Not for 36 they not buying raptors 36 devide by 12 billion how much it costs per copy???


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## Goku

mingle said:


> Not for 36 they not buying raptors 36 devide by 12 billion how much it costs per copy???


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...er-jets-delivered-by-march-2021-idUSKCN1NV1AV
12/36 = 300+ million dollars

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## mingle

Goku said:


> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...er-jets-delivered-by-march-2021-idUSKCN1NV1AV
> 12/36 = 300+ million dollars


So definitely not E but F22s I Beleive its total cost of cycle lncluding weapons spares. 72jett are 12 billion for Qatar about 6 per billion including everything.


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## airomerix

No F-15s or F-18s are coming in the next 20 years. 

I dont know from does this notion come from. 

We simply dont have the money. Neither would Congress allow such a powerful aircraft to be exported to a country which gets cozy with Chinese. Its 2020, and US personnel at Sargodha and Jaccoabad are still paranoid about Chinese around.

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## cloud4000

mingle said:


> So far Govt is sitting tight let's see what comes out from box as one respected member @Knuckles last Year IK trip to DC US offered F15 E to PAF. LM is doing fine with F35 and still F16 is selling like hott cakes its Boeing which needs orders like they cutting down production of F18 super Hornets. Not many F15 E orders in pipeline. Let's see what PAF after this time door is open for PAF. PAF wants payment through CSF which needs to be resolve after peace deal I believe this issue will resolve as well its about 8-10 billions



I presume its Boeing that offered the F-15, an aircraft that Pakistan is not even interested in, and still not interested in. Does India even want to induct another US fighter and all that it entails? And it's the E model, not the new EX model that USAF is interested in. 

Whatever equipment manages to acquire for US, a few hurdles must be cleared. The peace plan with Afghanistan will need to be finalized and signed. Then the issue of CSF will need to be restored. As for how much CSF Pakistan will be compensated is still up in the air. The claim of $8-10 billion is being claimed by Pakistan, something the US may not agree with. Still, this will be an issue that Congress will decide as they are the ones who write the checks. 



The Eagle said:


> Just to put a hold on this narrative, POTUS can overpass congress in this case. Ref: last KSA selling. The issue isn't either POTUS or Congress but more about paying upfront as compare to utilizing FMS & CSF.
> 
> Regards,



The KSA deal was forced through because Trump claimed it was a national security issue. Something Congress -- both Democrats and Republicans -- were not happy about. It will be interesting to see if Trump tries to do the same thing with Pakistan, considering there's no emergency or national security. How can they be when US is withdrawing from Afghanistan?

It's interesting that Pakistan thinks it will get more than the usual from US: F-16 Blocks 70s, V upgrades for existing F-16s, AIM-9x, AIM-120D, etc. I know the Khafee leaks say otherwise, but I have doubts. Why would US give Pakistan a conventional edge over India?

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## Haris Ali2140

cloud4000 said:


> I presume its Boeing that offered the F-15, an aircraft that Pakistan is not even interested in, and still not interested in. Does India even want to induct another US fighter and all that it entails? And it's the E model, not the new EX model that USAF is interested in.
> 
> Whatever equipment manages to acquire for US, a few hurdles must be cleared. The peace plan with Afghanistan will need to be finalized and signed. Then the issue of CSF will need to be restored. As for how much CSF Pakistan will be compensated is still up in the air. The claim of $8-10 billion is being claimed by Pakistan, something the US may not agree with. Still, this will be an issue that Congress will decide as they are the ones who write the checks.
> 
> 
> 
> The KSA deal was forced through because Trump claimed it was a national security issue. Something Congress -- both Democrats and Republicans -- were not happy about. It will be interesting to see if Trump tries to do the same thing with Pakistan, considering there's no emergency or national security. How can they be when US is withdrawing from Afghanistan?
> 
> It's interesting that Pakistan thinks it will get more than the usual from US: F-16 Blocks 70s, V upgrades for existing F-16s, AIM-9x, AIM-120D, etc. I know the Khafee leaks say otherwise, but I have doubts. Why would US give Pakistan a conventional edge over India?



Even if we get what you are saying it will be balancing out no giving an edge if compared to Rafales and meteors.

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## MastanKhan

The Eagle said:


> Just to put a hold on this narrative, POTUS can overpass congress in this case. Ref: last KSA selling. The issue isn't either POTUS or Congress but more about paying upfront as compare to utilizing FMS & CSF.
> 
> Regards,



Hi,

Excellent analysis---. No one dare challenge Pres Trump---.

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## mingle

cloud4000 said:


> I presume its Boeing that offered the F-15, an aircraft that Pakistan is not even interested in, and still not interested in. Does India even want to induct another US fighter and all that it entails? And it's the E model, not the new EX model that USAF is interested in.
> 
> Whatever equipment manages to acquire for US, a few hurdles must be cleared. The peace plan with Afghanistan will need to be finalized and signed. Then the issue of CSF will need to be restored. As for how much CSF Pakistan will be compensated is still up in the air. The claim of $8-10 billion is being claimed by Pakistan, something the US may not agree with. Still, this will be an issue that Congress will decide as they are the ones who write the checks.
> 
> 
> 
> The KSA deal was forced through because Trump claimed it was a national security issue. Something Congress -- both Democrats and Republicans -- were not happy about. It will be interesting to see if Trump tries to do the same thing with Pakistan, considering there's no emergency or national security. How can they be when US is withdrawing from Afghanistan?
> 
> It's interesting that Pakistan thinks it will get more than the usual from US: F-16 Blocks 70s, V upgrades for existing F-16s, AIM-9x, AIM-120D, etc. I know the Khafee leaks say otherwise, but I have doubts. Why would US give Pakistan a conventional edge over India?


American when they want they can declare anything national security. Pak case they declare ISIS or Iran anything nobody question. It's business anyway.

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## Ali_Baba

mingle said:


> Or New off the shelf and used as many as we can get along V AESA upgrades yes alot of AMRAAM Rrounds



There is no such thing as "new off the shelf" when it comes to fighter jets. Each batch is custom built for the clients specific requirements, and no 2 air arms have the same specification.

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## denel

Interesting read:

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/hot...-the-border-between-afghanistan-and-pakistan/

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## MIRauf

PAF gets all it needs in a fighter jet with F-16s, If indeed PAF is able to get its hands on Block-72 and rest are upgraded to V, then there shouldn't be a need for F-15E/X or whatever designation you would prefer with it.

F-15 would have made sense if PAF didn't have the JF-17 and instead had large number of F-16, then the F-15 could have provided the top cover for the F-16s, a role which is currently played by F-16s in the PAF colors.

F-15s are one heck of a platform, but not for a resource ($) constraint air-force, no matter how bad we would like to see it in PAF inventory.

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## mingle

Ali_Baba said:


> There is no such thing as "new off the shelf" when it comes to fighter jets. Each batch is custom built for the clients specific requirements, and no 2 air arms have the same specification.


Off the shelf mean some time things already half baked


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## mingle

airomerix said:


> Yes it is 100% OEM supported.
> 
> US has not halted Pakistan's F-16 sustainment program due to strong protest lodged before buying the Block 52's back in 2005. And trust me when I say this, the guys at Lockheed were embarrassed. Their lobbies work in great favor for Pakistan in Congress to date. Some written agreements were also signed back then for continuity of sustainment program as long as Pakistan was not blacklisted or earns the status of a 'failed state'. There is a reason why keep spotting our C-130's at Denver AFB, embargo or not.
> 
> 
> 
> The air life is a highly classified information. We cannot know for sure if it is 25% or 50% in this point in time.
> 
> However, the best I know is, we are good to go for the next 15 years on average before the first of the missiles come close to the 1800 hrs mark. This calculation takes into account full scale standoffs with frequent CAP times.
> 
> 
> 
> US would sell Pakistan F-35's if we had the buck.
> 
> When Congress puts embargo on Pakistan and halts such contracts, it takes a toll on US jobs. And they dont want to lose their seats in their home states.
> 
> The Zulu's are coming. Whether you like it or not.


Off the topic is PAA interested more Zulus once these delivered??


----------



## MastanKhan

Myth_buster_1 said:


> This was 10 years ago and today Indian lobby is 10 times stronger! You do not know how many important positions Indian origin hold in US government and businesses, and US is in a stage that it would never jeopardize their relationship with India.
> Next time Pakistan gets something from US is when they need Pakistan to do their dirty work.



Hi,

Indian lobby was stronger---but no more---.

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## mingle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Indian lobby was stronger---but no more---.


MK Democrats not gonna win next election its Trump all the way. Let this Afghanistan peace deal signed Pak will be in better position and can fetch on Iran and Daesh khurasan. Also trade war between US and India just started Larry cudlow is not going with Trump unless india won't give trade concessions US won't get soft on them like they dealt with China hard times for india ahead both internal and external.this also shows US sees India as future rival or enemy not a friend or Allie so Pak will be there to check india as cop.

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## Myth_buster_1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Indian lobby was stronger---but no more---.



lets hope thats the case.

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## Haris Ali2140

Myth_buster_1 said:


> lets hope thats the case.


Trump ain't happy with India. Let's see if he can pull a China on India.

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## mingle

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Trump ain't happy with India. Let's see if he can pull a China on India.


India has little or No chance against US arm twisting even China couldn't stand against US India is like fish in Jar. Bottom line india has to Give In.


----------



## The Eagle

cloud4000 said:


> The KSA deal was forced through because Trump claimed it was a national security issue. Something Congress -- both Democrats and Republicans -- were not happy about. It will be interesting to see if Trump tries to do the same thing with Pakistan, considering there's no emergency or national security. How can they be when US is withdrawing from Afghanistan?
> 
> It's interesting that Pakistan thinks it will get more than the usual from US: F-16 Blocks 70s, V upgrades for existing F-16s, AIM-9x, AIM-120D, etc. I know the Khafee leaks say otherwise, but I have doubts. Why would US give Pakistan a conventional edge over India?



Man whatever the reason, the argument of Congress halting sale and POTUS can't do anything, is flawed and proven wrong with facts as discussed. What will happen in case of Pakistan, be seen when time comes but to say that Congress wouldn't do it, is merely nothing but an olive branch for the satisfaction of an individual. Whether POTUs does it in the name of National Security or like Meri Marzi; doesn't matter. The argument is settled & established the fact that Trump can do it regardless of Congress etc disagreement.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Excellent analysis---. No one dare challenge Pres Trump---.



Literally surprised by the self satisfactory narrative that congress or democrats etc will do this or that where we have a settled case how Trump does it in case if he wants to. How he will do it, is the different matter but that is none of the concern as long as goodies coming home. Trump has already proven the narrative wrong. 

However, how Trump makes an executive decision for Pakistan or wouldn't do it, is different thing but he has the authority to do it in-case we aren't able to convince Congress. Furthermore, LM has a good say in congress.

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## Talon

From the archives

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## mshan44



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## litman

Hodor said:


> From the archives
> 
> View attachment 607348


i think its from the earlier anatolion eagle exercises when our f-16s were not MLUed.PAF was seriously handicapped at that time with virtually not a single BVR capable fighter in its fleet.

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## airomerix

Some nice shots of legacy Block 15's at Nellis. Beautiful birds.

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## Windjammer



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## Aadi_1591

jupiter2007 said:


> Maybe they are waiting for this.
> View attachment 606228


which plane is this? j10 something?


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## jupiter2007

Aadi_1591 said:


> which plane is this? j10 something?


Artist impression of Future J-10 variant.


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## Nomad40

kids talking about f-15's not knowing about operational costs, you can fly 2 f-16 for the cost of 1 f-15. BUT THEN AGAIN AIR SUPERIORITY

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## MastanKhan

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> kids talking about f-15's not knowing about operational costs, you can fly 2 f-16 for the cost of 1 f-15. BUT THEN AGAIN AIR SUPERIORITY



Hi,

Indeed---the price to pay for air superiority is heavy---.

Should have bought the Mirage2K's or F16's or Rafale in a timely manner---.



The Eagle said:


> Man whatever the reason, the argument of Congress halting sale and POTUS can't do anything, is flawed and proven wrong with facts as discussed. What will happen in case of Pakistan, be seen when time comes but to say that Congress wouldn't do it, is merely nothing but an olive branch for the satisfaction of an individual. Whether POTUs does it in the name of National Security or like Meri Marzi; doesn't matter. The argument is settled & established the fact that Trump can do it regardless of Congress etc disagreement.
> 
> 
> 
> Literally surprised by the self satisfactory narrative that congress or democrats etc will do this or that where we have a settled case how Trump does it in case if he wants to. How he will do it, is the different matter but that is none of the concern as long as goodies coming home. Trump has already proven the narrative wrong.
> 
> However, how Trump makes an executive decision for Pakistan or wouldn't do it, is different thing but he has the authority to do it in-case we aren't able to convince Congress. Furthermore, LM has a good say in congress.



Hi,

We have to understand one thing---it is only and only Pres Trump who can dictate the congress and senate---.

After he is gone---it would be back to normal for the american congress---.

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## Incog_nito

Signalian said:


> Yes PAF has the option to get 18 F-16 Block 52+ under $5.1 Billion aid program through FMS but FMS assistance or full payment comes up as bottle neck.


Still PAF should go for another 22 F-16 Block-52s + 10-12 C-130J30 along with some used aircrafts from USA.

50+ used F-16s A/B with MLU-4 and some for spares.
and spare for the existing C-130 fleet.

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## mshan44



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## Windjammer



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## Trailer23



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## Zulfiqar

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 607683
> 
> 
> View attachment 607684



1st Pic is probably of Turkish F-16.

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## Adam_Khan

Zulfiqar said:


> 1st Pic is probably of Turkish F-16.



It's a Turkish F.16,only latest Turkish vipers block 50/52s have wide angle Raster HUDS's which were basically limited to Block 40's only.

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## Zulfiqar

Adam_Khan said:


> It's a Turkish F.16,only latest Turkish vipers block 50/52s have wide angle Raster HUDS's which were basically limited to Block 40's only.



Are those the ones used with Lantirn? Any other advantage relative to the ones used on our Block 52s?


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## Adam_Khan

Zulfiqar said:


> Are those the ones used with Lantirn? Any other advantage relative to the ones used on our Block 52s?



They were used on Block 40 series for the Lantirn pod,I have not seen yet a Block 50 series carry the LANTIRN pod(not sure if the Egyptians use them on their latest vipers).


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## Talon

Beauties

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## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> Beauties
> 
> View attachment 609071
> View attachment 609072


I like the nametag style. Very much like the ones for the first guys who trained with the Tucson ANG.


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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16AM-Fighting-Falcon/1930

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## Windjammer



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## mingle

I hope more F16s or other Jett will come PAF way.


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## Haris Ali2140



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## MastanKhan

Please listen to this video---and you will find our love for the americans and american love for the pakistans---and resulting in why Pakistanis love the F16---.

It started with Kinow---.






__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## mingle

MastanKhan said:


> Please listen to this video---and you will find our love for the americans and american love for the pakistans---and resulting in why Pakistanis love the F16---.
> 
> It started with Kinow---.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/


Cameron munter Ex ambassador wrote about it including cotton

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## Windjammer

Dman F-16 is bigger than the C-130.

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## Maxpane

MastanKhan said:


> Please listen to this video---and you will find our love for the americans and american love for the pakistans---and resulting in why Pakistanis love the F16---.
> 
> It started with Kinow---.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/


i thought till today that all these were local fruits


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## khanasifm

The only thing on f-16 perhaps in short term can be bring Jordanian version Adv to paf standard of Mlu but that too need cost justification if upgrade is more expansive that new jf than its better to get jf 

13 mlu cost ?? Thailand 18 were for 2.6 b whoops that’s mean you can buy 6-8 sqdn of jf ?? 


https://www.militaryaerospace.com/t...force-f16-jet-fighters-in-26-billion-contract

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## cloud4000

Myth_buster_1 said:


> This was 10 years ago and today Indian lobby is 10 times stronger! You do not know how many important positions Indian origin hold in US government and businesses, and US is in a stage that it would never jeopardize their relationship with India.
> Next time Pakistan gets something from US is when they need Pakistan to do their dirty work.



Just because Indian-origin people hold certain US government positions does not make them pro-India. If Pakistani-origin people held the same positions would not necessarily make them pro-Pakistan. It's a question of common interests: US is converging with India while diverging with Pakistan.



mingle said:


> India buying LCA not western Jett proved me correct with current economic crisis they can't afford any western Jett



India can afford any weapon system it wants. It has the money, it just doesn't want to if it can avoid it. India is keen on "Made in India" for its defense sector. The LCA is the first step.



Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> I hope we Get Our F16s Upgraded with AIM 120Ds.



F-16 Upgrade? Yes. AIM-120Ds? No.


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## Aliph Ahmed

cloud4000 said:


> Just because Indian-origin people hold certain US government positions does not make them pro-India. If Pakistani-origin people held the same positions would not necessarily make them pro-Pakistan. It's a question of common interests: US is converging with India while diverging with Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> India can afford any weapon system it wants. It has the money, it just doesn't want to if it can avoid it. India is keen on "Made in India" for its defense sector. The LCA is the first step.
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 Upgrade? Yes. AIM-120Ds? No.



Indians are not honest people. Every person in US Admin with Indian background is biased towards India starting with Nikki Haley

Indian made in India policy has been and is a DISASTER. LCA being prime Example. 

Unlike India, even if PAF orders AIM 120D, Youll only see them when flying on paf f16s.

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## cloud4000

Aliph Ahmed said:


> Indians are not honest people. Every person in US Admin with Indian background is biased towards India starting with Nikki Haley
> 
> Indian made in India policy has been and is a DISASTER. LCA being prime Example.
> 
> Unlike India, even if PAF orders AIM 120D, Youll only see them when flying on paf f16s.



Indians are not honest people? And Pakistani are? And will they be any less biased towards Pakistan? I’m sensing sour grapes here.

Yes, made in India has been less than ideal. This why India is seeking FDI and ToT in defense sector. It will take time.

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## khanasifm

Stick to the topic and leave other or take them to appropriate thread 

Forget about f87776 in776


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## Windjammer



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## Talon



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## mshan44



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## Windjammer

PAF Vipers on Steroids.

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## PakShaheen79

Hodor said:


> View attachment 610276
> View attachment 610277



Holy Crap.! For a moment I thought Virat Kholi has joined Pakistan Armed forces.


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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer

If you see me, you are already dead.

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16BM-Fighting-Falcon/2379

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/F-16D-Block-52--Fighting-Falcon/1104

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## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


> If you see me, you are already dead.


_Squadron Leader Tariq Waheed Malik_ (Sqn No. 11/Arrows) was awarded the coveted *Sher Afgan Trophy 2015* for being the best marksman in the competition.

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## Windjammer

Trailer23 said:


> _Squadron Leader Tariq Waheed Malik_ (Sqn No. 11/Arrows) was awarded the coveted *Sher Afgan Trophy 2015* for being the best marksman in the competition.


Aka Halifaxian.

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## Nomad40

Windjammer said:


> Aka Halifaxian.


is he from Halifax Novascotia

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## mingle

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> is he from Halifax Novascotia


Could be Halifax Yorkshire UK as well???


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## Nomad40

mingle said:


> Could be Halifax Yorkshire UK as well???


HBU

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## Incog_nito

Is there any possibility or chance that PAF is in talks with the Americans for F-16s acquisition along with upgradation?


22 New F-16s Block-52
40+ used F-16s A/B with MLU-4
Upgradation of PAF used F-16s A/B to MLU-4

And is PAF planning to acquire any other modern aircraft from EU?

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## Nomad40

IM Ozair said:


> Is there any possibility or chance that PAF is in talks with the Americans for F-16s acquisition along with upgradation?
> 
> 
> 22 New F-16s Block-52
> 40+ used F-16s A/B with MLU-4
> Upgradation of PAF used F-16s A/B to MLU-4
> 
> And is PAF planning to acquire any other modern aircraft from EU?


no



Mirage Battle Commander said:


> no


we could really do with 22 block 52 yeah why not

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## Raider 21

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> HBU


Ottawa and Montreal here

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## GriffinsRule

IM Ozair said:


> Is there any possibility or chance that PAF is in talks with the Americans for F-16s acquisition along with upgradation?
> 
> 
> 22 New F-16s Block-52
> 40+ used F-16s A/B with MLU-4
> Upgradation of PAF used F-16s A/B to MLU-4
> 
> And is PAF planning to acquire any other modern aircraft from EU?



Why 22 Block 52s?


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## Trailer23




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## Armchair

I think it is a major diplomatic failure that Pakistan cannot acquire second hand F-16s despite the recent success in Afghanistan thanks to Pak. One needs salesmen not military minds or political gurus sometimes to get the juice out of a fruit. @MastanKhan would have been an ideal type to have gotten more - well at least something in the last few years. Its a shame.

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## araz

Armchair said:


> I think it is a major diplomatic failure that Pakistan cannot acquire second hand F-16s despite the recent success in Afghanistan thanks to Pak. One needs salesmen not military minds or political gurus sometimes to get the juice out of a fruit. @MastanKhan would have been an ideal type to have gotten more - well at least something in the last few years. Its a shame.


I will leave your choice of negotiators aside and not comment on it.
I think US has a plan for the region and Paklands is a mere cog in the bigger conundrum. You were allowed that which was absolutely necessary but never allowed to be able to fly solo. The carrot and stick approach doesnot work otherwise.
Another point from their perspective is if they allow unrestricted access to their boneyard to Pakistan why would we buy newer planes? So we bought 18 and were given 28 older ones. If we buy 18 more we might be able to squeeze some more older 16s out of US/third party. 
The last point of contention was that PAF only wanted block 15OCUwhereas US was offering some block 32s. For various reasons we did not want to get those ones.
There are chances we may not be allowed to do so on account of US interests in India. 
A

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## Incog_nito

GriffinsRule said:


> Why 22 Block 52s?



PAF already has 18 F-16s Block-52s


----------



## GriffinsRule

IM Ozair said:


> PAF already has 18 F-16s Block-52s


But how did you come up with the number 22 I mean. What's the rationale behind that?

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## Silicon0000

GriffinsRule said:


> But how did you come up with the number 22 I mean. What's the rationale behind that?



Maybe Lucky number or date of birth of a Fanboy 

Apart joke maybe he is thinking about a squadron of Single seat and 4 dual seat version

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## MastanKhan

Armchair said:


> I think it is a major diplomatic failure that Pakistan cannot acquire second hand F-16s despite the recent success in Afghanistan thanks to Pak. One needs salesmen not military minds or political gurus sometimes to get the juice out of a fruit. @MastanKhan would have been an ideal type to have gotten more - well at least something in the last few years. Its a shame.



Hi

military men should never make deals. They should just tell the buyers for what they want or accessories they need and let the buyers do their talking.

Warriors make terrible car deals.

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi
> 
> military men should never make deals. They should just tell the buyers for what they want or accessories they need and let the buyers do their talking.
> 
> Warriors make terrible car deals.


Agreed; they are just a client.

It is a pity, memories for the US are too short. In 1 year, they will forget and there will be no quid pro quo

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## Bossman

MastanKhan said:


> Hi
> 
> military men should never make deals. They should just tell the buyers for what they want or accessories they need and let the buyers do their talking.
> 
> Warriors make terrible car deals.



PAF has a reputation of being one of the toughest negotiator both at a technical as well as at the financial level. This is documented in the public domain. Please don’t transpose your experience of selling lemons as a sweeping statement.



denel said:


> Agreed; they are just a client.
> 
> It is a pity, memories for the US are too short. In 1 year, they will forget and there will be no quid pro quo



The US secretary of Defence is not coming to Pakistan to play golf.


----------



## ziaulislam

Bossman said:


> PAF has a reputation of being one of the toughest negotiator both at a technical as well as at the financial level. This is documented in the public domain. Please don’t transpose your experience of selling lemons as a sweeping statement.
> 
> 
> 
> The US secretary of Defence is not coming to Pakistan to play golf.


The key will be whther we can get used f16s

Last time it was mushi who got billions of dollars of worth of equipment at peanut prices


----------



## MastanKhan

Bossman said:


> PAF has a reputation of being one of the toughest negotiator both at a technical as well as at the financial level. This is documented in the public domain. Please don’t transpose your experience of selling lemons as a sweeping statement.
> 
> 
> 
> The US secretary of Defence is not coming to Pakistan to play golf.



Hi,

The deal after 9/11 tells a great story---.

The term US aid to pakistan also tells a great story---.

It was a service charge for facilities that pakistan provided and it should have been charged in advance every year---and yet these " great deal makers of your's " gave the US govt a loan of $1 billion every year to pay back at their discretion---.

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## Nomad40

ziaulislam said:


> The key will be whther we can get used f16s
> 
> Last time it was mushi who got billions of dollars of worth of equipment at peanut prices


f-35 man, I have seen it. IT IS A TOTAL BEAST ONES HEART SHAKES AND TREMBLES YOU CAN FEEL THE ROAR OF THE AIRCRAFT IN YOURE JIGGLY BITS (GENTLEMEN SAUSAGE) AND TO THINK IT IS INVISIBLE TO THE ENEMY AND THAT SWEET BODACIOUS BOMBAY (UFF MUJHY CHORDOO) WE NEED 8 BILLION D077@45


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## Thorough Pro

Had you lost a family member in drone strikes, you won't have called the price we paid as "peanuts".
I am not even mentioning the violation of Pakistan's sovereignty, It's isolation for more than a decade, the worst ever image on international forum and billions of losses through terrorism and direct impact on the economy.





ziaulislam said:


> The key will be whther we can get used f16s
> 
> Last time it was mushi who got billions of dollars of worth of equipment at peanut prices

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## MastanKhan

Bossman said:


> Take your meds old man and relax. You have no idea what you are talking about. You know it’s not a good idea to F with me.



You are on a Bear hunt one more time---.

Is this an open threat on a public forum---?


----------



## Nomad40

MastanKhan said:


> You are on a Bear hunt one more time---.
> 
> Is this an open threat on a public forum---?


why are you both beefing


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## MastanKhan

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> why are you both beefing



He likes to go bear hunting---. Are you familiar with Bear Hunt---?


----------



## Nomad40

MastanKhan said:


> He likes to go bear hunting---.


but why


----------



## MastanKhan

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> but why




Because he wants to---.


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## Nomad40

MastanKhan said:


> Because he wants to---.


cool cool cool cool cool cool cool cool cool 

Prolly get deleted but COOL COOOL


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## Armchair

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The deal after 9/11 tells a great story---.
> 
> The term US aid to pakistan also tells a great story---.
> 
> It was a service charge for facilities that pakistan provided and it should have been charged in advance every year---and yet these " great deal makers of your's " gave the US govt and loan of $1 billion every year to pay back at their discretion---.



Dumb decision makers keep waiting for when the next US boss will come and sing them a nice story and a lullaby. Look how they take criticism - hilarious. Tough negotiators my >>>>



araz said:


> I will leave your choice of negotiators aside and not comment on it.
> I think US has a plan for the region and Paklands is a mere cog in the bigger conundrum. You were allowed that which was absolutely necessary but never allowed to be able to fly solo. The carrot and stick approach doesnot work otherwise.
> Another point from their perspective is if they allow unrestricted access to their boneyard to Pakistan why would we buy newer planes? So we bought 18 and were given 28 older ones. If we buy 18 more we might be able to squeeze some more older 16s out of US/third party.
> The last point of contention was that PAF only wanted block 15OCUwhereas US was offering some block 32s. For various reasons we did not want to get those ones.
> There are chances we may not be allowed to do so on account of US interests in India.
> A




I am sorry sir, but this is the mind of a mentally defeated person. You provided a serious service to the US and should have taken your pay upfront instead of this "tomorrow Uncle Sam will give us a calculated carrot". 

This mindset explains why Pak keeps giving and get's back so little. Which brings us to people who don't have a defeated mindset and know how to negotiate and deal with the US...

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## StormBreaker

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


WHAT A HELL NEWS I WOKE UP TO !!!!!!!!

Ya Allah !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Pakistani Fighter

StormBreaker said:


> Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> 
> 
> WHAT A HELL NEWS I WOKE UP TO !!!!!!!!
> 
> Ya Allah !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Which F16 has crashed?


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## StormBreaker

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Which F16 has crashed?


Check the notify paf crash thread

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## ziaulislam

Thorough Pro said:


> Had you lost a family member in drone strikes, you won't have called the price we paid as "peanuts".
> I am not even mentioning the violation of Pakistan's sovereignty, It's isolation for more than a decade, the worst ever image on international forum and billions of losses through terrorism and direct impact on the economy.


Go and check when were most of drones attacks done..drones depended mostly in era of mr shareef and mr zaradari..google it or check the wikipedia list..and also check what the people from rest of pakistan thought..they didnt gave a damn..media people of punjab sindh army establishment ..nobody cared because it didnt effect them

WASNT EVEN ON AGENDA OF PPPP PMLN or people of other provinces


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## Foxtrot Delta

Sad day for pakistan and pakistan air force. From Allah we come and to him is our return. armed forces people are ready to lay their lives for country and country men each minute of their lives.

i think he blacked out and lost conciousness for a few seconds after those high G turns. this has happened alot in Aggressive flying especially in Turkey, United states and Russia. i think pilot blacked out but could be a technical fault on single engine of F16 too. i wonder if it was old F16 or the C Block 52+. 

feel sad for nauman akram's family wing commander a salute to you. i would take ur place gladly any day. made us proud. May Allah keep you with Him. Ameen.

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## Viper27

Foxtrot Delta said:


> Sad day for pakistan and pakistan air force. From Allah we come and to him is our return. armed forces people are ready to lay their lives for country and country men each minute of their lives.
> 
> i think he blacked out and lost conciousness for a few seconds after those high G turns. this has happened alot in Aggressive flying especially in Turkey, United states and Russia. i think pilot blacked out but could be a technical fault on single engine of F16 too. i wonder if it was old F16 or the C Block 52+.
> 
> feel sad for nauman akram's family wing commander a salute to you. i would take ur place gladly any day. made us proud. May Allah keep you with Him. Ameen.



F-16-A MLU

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## nomi007

is it same jet of Hussan saddiqi?


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## fatman17

Industry
*PAF pilot killed in F-16 fighter crash in Islamabad*
*Gabriel Dominguez, London* - Jane's Defence Weekly
11 March 2020


A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) pilot was killed on 11 March when his F-16 multirole fighter aircraft crashed in a wooded area of the Pakistani capital Islamabad.

The PAF said in a statement that the incident took place while the aircraft was rehearsing for the country’s National Day parade set to be held on 23 March. The pilot has been identified as Wing Commander Noman Akram.

There were no immediate reports of other casualties.

The site in Islamabad’s Shakarparian area, where the aircraft crashed, has been cordoned off.

A court of inquiry has been ordered to investigate the cause of the crash.


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## araz

Armchair said:


> Dumb decision makers keep waiting for when the next US boss will come and sing them a nice story and a lullaby. Look how they take criticism - hilarious. Tough negotiators my >>>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I am sorry sir, but this is the mind of a mentally defeated person.* You provided a serious service to the US and should have taken your pay upfront instead of this "tomorrow Uncle Sam will give us a calculated carrot".
> 
> This mindset explains why Pak keeps giving and get's back so little. Which brings us to people who don't have a defeated mindset and know how to negotiate and deal with the US...


Hello.
This is the second or third time you are claiming that my thinking is that of *a mentally defeated person*.I would like you to qualify this with an explanation.
Perhaps you remain oblivious to our financial situation and our trade with the US the squeezing/embargoing of which could overnight bring you into a situation of default. I agree that there have been times when we could have asked for more but in international negotiations with the US there is a limit to which you could go. So what information do you or any of the people that you follow have about what was put forward and how negotiations went??
Your standing with the US is that it took the US 3 years to offer a mute apology to you for the blatant aggression against your forces in Salala. SO please enlighten me to what I have said which points to the thinking of a mentally defeated one. I await your response.
A


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## Myth_buster_1

I want to apologize to everyone who read my comment regarding F-16 crash.
I literally woke up and checked my phone and saw the bad news about F-16 crash. I was more concerned about the aircraft then the pilot when I made that stupid comment. My heart is saddened by this tragic incident knowing that the pilot could have ejected but he chose shahadat by staying in that aircraft just so that he could avoid ground casualty. I just cant get over by this tragic incident.
PS i was banned from the Notify PAF crash thread so I am using this thread.

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## MIRauf

Aren't these jets equipped with MB 0/0 ejection seats ? so he could have ejected at 100/200 feet, yes the survival chances go down but it gives hope for survival. Lets wait and see if Inquiry shows the actual cause, that is if ever gets released. I am sure, LM would like to know the root cause.

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## Nomad40

http://www.f-16.net/inmemoriam_tribute283.html

Pay tribute to our fighting falcon who has flown to peace 

Lets do it guys all members


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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16AM-Fighting-Falcon/2324


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## Amaa'n

Myth_buster_1 said:


> @The Eagle @Foxtrot Alpha
> Please can you guys unban me from Notify PAF crash thread. I need to share some information on that thread.


can't help you brother i got no mod controls......you can post here and i will copy it to the other thread on your behalf



Mirage Battle Commander said:


> @Foxtrot Alpha @The Eagle
> Can you guys un-ban me too I need to try to educate my fellow group members it will be help full


same as what i said to Myth bhai .....


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## Nomad40

Foxtrot Alpha said:


> can't help you brother i got no mod controls......you can post here and i will copy it to the other thread on your behalf
> 
> *Assesment by a well known analyst.*
> 
> Possibility: Looks like Compressor stalls soon after the last maneuver. The pilot tried till last moment 2 save the jet bcz there's a chance stalls may break at steady flows, hence he didn't eject His last maneuver before the crash exhibits his excellent competency
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> same as what i said to Myth bhai .....



(guys this is not gospel and yes I can be wrong, feel free to ask any question and or add to my argument)

Okay so this image above is basically showing the relation B/W lift characteristics and Air flow at various angles but his is very simple but the biggest point to be taken after making such arguments is that A fighter is built to be unstable and hence the maneuverability of the f-16 Now if people are suggesting that it was a stall then I would like to make Assertions to support my argument.

some of this is in Regards to the F-16 and some is *general knowledge* FOR THE MEMBERS

If we take a look at the the video one can clearly see that the air craft is climbing ( I have some speculation about the climb it looked a little slow) If the F-16 was in an aerodynamic stall (loosing most of its lift) we would note that the aircraft would not be climbing but it would be at a high angle of attack and the air speed would not be as such in the videos.

Another Point to be noted that if it was in-fact a stall the F-16 would not have been able to pull such a high g turn in relations to its stall speed and at those altitudes the F-16s glide ratio would have not helped a bunch and Because of the small and some what stubby wings of the F-16 it will most likely fall like a rock with a drag chute and that is of course without any engine power (Because that is how fighters fly).

The F-16 wouldn't have been able to pull those aggressive G and into the Dive/Loop because it would not have sufficient air speed it would have yawed to either side at high AOA ( The F-16 was doing a half Split S) so we know from the videos that it was already inverted and ready to commence the half loop (In case of Aero dynamic stall the pilot would have never executed the half loop instead he would have let go of the controls at let the air craft correct it self or engaged that big after burner to give it that 1:1 thrust (fly it like a stone with a rocket) or the Pilot would have tried to reduce angle of attack and take it from there.


Now Here comes the Compressor stall theory (which in my opinion did not happen) but if this was In-fact a compressor stall than here is what would have most likely happened, the F-16 would have most likely continued the some the climb and not inverted the air craft and than would have taken it from there (compressors stalls are easy to fix and P&W engine is very very robust and the intakes air flow has been designed in such a way that it eliminates un even air flow.

If you say the the compressor stall happened during the transition from Inverted - Dive even than that does not mean you loose power immediately in some cases you actually dont even lose power and with sufficient altitude the air craft would have exited any loop with ease and let Gravity do its work.

If it was a compressor stall than fighter pilots are trained to climb as high as possible to sufficient efforts in safe manner to restart the Engine if it has lost power completely and if not than get ready to do some pre ejection checks Feet off the rudder pedals push the cheeks inside to the seat rest the neck and head and pull the handle with both hands and arms firm to the sides (hope for the best).

That puff of Smoke is most probably some unburned fuel.

That picture of the F-16 where it is Labeled as stall blow out is most probably some of the debris entering the engine with the mixture of the electric discharge, wire snapping and the high speed impact of aft belly first on to the ground (BUT I COULD BE WRONG).

The members who are posting video and images of the shaheed pilots is from Feb 7 FT-7 crash and is clearly evident by the location, terrain, ejection seat mk10 and the uniform of the deceased Pilots.

Dear members as I have been unjustly banned from couple of forums I apologize for sharing my POV in this thread.

The biggest issue for me now is the delay in the transition from the dive to exiting the loop

Nothing but Respect for our Dear Fighting Falcon who knows what could be the cause


@Foxtrot Alpha thanks for sharing on the crash thread.

sincerely,

Mirage Battle Commander

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## khanasifm

all paper experts have stated their theories

I am guessing how many air accidents investigations have they actually conducted 

leave it professionals and do not speculate

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## adelphi

*A brief history of F-16 crashes in Pakistan*
Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Wing Commander Noman Akram was martyred when his F-16 fighter jet crashed near Shakarparian in Islamabad on Wednesday. The crash was the fourth PAF plane to go down this year, although it was the first F-16 fighter jet to crash in more than ten years.

Here is a brief look at the crashes that have befallen the elite fighter jet in Pakistan over the years. A number of F-16 aircraft crashed during the 1990s, but only one such incident was reported during the first decade of the twenty-first century. 

*1980s: Three crashes reported *
According to_ F-16.net_, a PAF F-16 plane went down on 18 December 1986. The aircraft took off from Sargodha Airbase and hit a wild boar, causing the two pilots to eject. One of them was Sqn Ldr Faaiz Amir.

The website also reports that on 29 April 1987, a PAF F-16 was shot down by Wing Commander Amjad Javed - who had mistakenly targeted his wingman. Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar Khan had ejected safely. 

On 4 September 1989, a PAF pilot was martyred when his plane went down shortly after take-off from Sargodha Airbase. According to _F-16.net_, the pilot stressed called his lead, Sqn.Ldr. Zafar Ahsan, telling him that he was disoriented. 

*1990s: Five crashes reported*
_F-16.net_ reports that on 16 June 1991, an engine failure during a night training mission caused an F-16 jet to crash. The pilot, Squadron Leader Syed Hassan Raza, ejected safely. The plane had taken off from Kamra Airbase. 

The same year, on 27 October, another engine failure during dogfight training mission caused an F-16 to crash in Attock. Squadron Leader Nadeem Anjum had ejected safely. The engine failure was caused by installing an unoriginal part in the engine during maintenance, the website said.

On 10 November 1993, a bird hit caused an F-16 to crash. Both pilots were able to eject safely before the plane hit the ground. 

In 1994, two crashes were reported. One on 17 March, and another on 22 October. A pilot was martyred in the the first incident, which occurred due to spatial dissorientation. In the second incident, caused by a bird hit, the pilot ejected safely. 

*2000s: One crash reported*
One F-16 crashed during the first decade of the new century. The incident happened on 17 July 2009, when during a routine night training mission, the plane crashed close to the village of NurPur, 105km south west of Sargodha. The pilot, Squadron Leader Saud Ghulam Nabi, was martyred.

https://www.geo.tv/latest/276927-a-brief-history-of-f-16-crashes-in-pakistan

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## Readerdefence

Hi can somebody give some info about the replacement of f16 due to on way or the other 
Crashed or malfunction if any member can provide this information & how may been replaced & when this happened 
Thank you


----------



## Adam_Khan

adelphi said:


> *A brief history of F-16 crashes in Pakistan*
> Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Wing Commander Noman Akram was martyred when his F-16 fighter jet crashed near Shakarparian in Islamabad on Wednesday. The crash was the fourth PAF plane to go down this year, although it was the first F-16 fighter jet to crash in more than ten years.
> 
> Here is a brief look at the crashes that have befallen the elite fighter jet in Pakistan over the years. A number of F-16 aircraft crashed during the 1990s, but only one such incident was reported during the first decade of the twenty-first century.
> 
> *1980s: Three crashes reported *
> According to_ F-16.net_, a PAF F-16 plane went down on 18 December 1986. The aircraft took off from Sargodha Airbase and hit a wild boar, causing the two pilots to eject. One of them was Sqn Ldr Faaiz Amir.
> 
> The website also reports that on 29 April 1987, a PAF F-16 was shot down by Wing Commander Amjad Javed - who had mistakenly targeted his wingman. Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar Khan had ejected safely.
> 
> On 4 September 1989, a PAF pilot was martyred when his plane went down shortly after take-off from Sargodha Airbase. According to _F-16.net_, the pilot stressed called his lead, Sqn.Ldr. Zafar Ahsan, telling him that he was disoriented.
> 
> *1990s: Five crashes reported*
> _F-16.net_ reports that on 16 June 1991, an engine failure during a night training mission caused an F-16 jet to crash. The pilot, Squadron Leader Syed Hassan Raza, ejected safely. The plane had taken off from Kamra Airbase.
> 
> The same year, on 27 October, another engine failure during dogfight training mission caused an F-16 to crash in Attock. Squadron Leader Nadeem Anjum had ejected safely. The engine failure was caused by installing an unoriginal part in the engine during maintenance, the website said.
> 
> On 10 November 1993, a bird hit caused an F-16 to crash. Both pilots were able to eject safely before the plane hit the ground.
> 
> In 1994, two crashes were reported. One on 17 March, and another on 22 October. A pilot was martyred in the the first incident, which occurred due to spatial dissorientation. In the second incident, caused by a bird hit, the pilot ejected safely.
> 
> *2000s: One crash reported*
> One F-16 crashed during the first decade of the new century. The incident happened on 17 July 2009, when during a routine night training mission, the plane crashed close to the village of NurPur, 105km south west of Sargodha. The pilot, Squadron Leader Saud Ghulam Nabi, was martyred.
> 
> https://www.geo.tv/latest/276927-a-brief-history-of-f-16-crashes-in-pakistan



Quite an exemplary record, a bit sad to see so many crashes due to human error or bad luck.

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## litman

its strange to see more crashes when the jet was relatively new and fewer crashes later on. may be the pilots were not trained enough to fly this high performance jet at that time. 2 losses in 2 decades is a decent record by any standards. but one thing is certain we as a nation never anticipate things and learn only after huge losses. air craft lost to animal hit, terrorist attacks or in air shows are the accidents that could have been avoided.


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## The Eagle

Myth_buster_1 said:


> @The Eagle @Foxtrot Alpha
> Please can you guys unban me from Notify PAF crash thread. I need to share some information on that thread.





Mirage Battle Commander said:


> @Foxtrot Alpha @The Eagle
> Can you guys un-ban me too I need to try to educate my fellow group members it will be help full



Use GHQ Section for such requests or a profile post at-least. Do not derail threads as such.


----------



## Windjammer

Adam_Khan said:


> Quite an exemplary record, a bit sad to see so many crashes due to human error or bad luck.


Indeed exemplary also acknowledged by this incredible milestone.


*F-16 Fighting Falcon News*
*Pakistani F-16s reach 100,000 accident free flight hours*

October 4, 2005 (by Asif Shamim) - *A three-member delegation of Pratt & Whitney called on Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, Chief of the Air Staff Pakistan Air Force at Air Headquarters to present a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over 100,000 accident-free flight hours.*

Lloyd W. "Fig" Newton, executive vice president, presented a plaque to the Chief of the Air Staff in recognition of flying the F-16, for over 100,000 accident-free flight hours.

They also commended the maintenance, quality control and flight safety standards of the PAF, which made this achievement possible.

Retired Gen. Lloyd Newton, along with Gen. (R) William J Begert, Vice President and Warren Boley, Vice President, remained with Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Sadaat, Chief of Air Staff for some time and discussed matters pertaining to mutual and professional interest.

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## nomi007

whats about the supplement of lost F-16. will the USA provide or not


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## Pakistani Fighter

adelphi said:


> disoriented





adelphi said:


> spatial dissorientation


Can somebody explain me what this means?



nomi007 said:


> whats about the supplement of lost F-16. will the USA provide or not


why would it? Did they provided when our F16s crashed due to engine failures or when P3Cs were destroyed by terrorists? No then now it means no


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## airomerix

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Can somebody explain me what this means?
> 
> 
> why would it? Did they provided when our F16s crashed due to engine failures or when P3Cs were destroyed by terrorists? No then now it means no



When blood leaves the brain rendering it unable to exercise logic and common sense. Altitude, speed, pressure appear irrelevant.

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## Pakistani Fighter

@airomerix Sir do PAF have F16s in reserve?


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## araz

airomerix said:


> When blood leaves the brain rendering it unable to exercise logic and common sense. Altitude, speed, pressure appear irrelevant.


My question is slightly more complex. Of the F16 inventory PAF has to this date 4 attritions. When we were in the process of acquiring more 16s we quoted our inventory at 32. The explanation was that we have had to use our own fleet to keep the rest of the fleet airworthy. I Can recall one loss to a boar, one own goal, and one CFIT during night sortie.
So when we got our supplies restored were we able to resurrect any of the platforms which we used for replacement of parts and did US give us more platforms to replace the depleted fleet. My understanding was that 2 platforms were provided while we had our own MLUed and these were to be retained after MLU process was completed. So what is our current inventory?sorry for such a long diatribe.
A


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## Nomad40

The image posted by Wind Jammer


araz said:


> My question is slightly more complex. Of the F16 inventory PAF has to this date 4 attritions. When we were in the process of acquiring more 16s we quoted our inventory at 32. The explanation was that we have had to use our own fleet to keep the rest of the fleet airworthy. I Can recall one loss to a boar, one own goal, and one CFIT during night sortie.
> So when we got our supplies restored were we able to resurrect any of the platforms which we used for replacement of parts and did US give us more platforms to replace the depleted fleet. My understanding was that 2 platforms were provided while we had our own MLUed and these were to be retained after MLU process was completed. So what is our current inventory?sorry for such a long diatribe.
> A


75


----------



## airomerix

araz said:


> My question is slightly more complex. Of the F16 inventory PAF has to this date 4 attritions. When we were in the process of acquiring more 16s we quoted our inventory at 32. The explanation was that we have had to use our own fleet to keep the rest of the fleet airworthy. I Can recall one loss to a boar, one own goal, and one CFIT during night sortie.
> So when we got our supplies restored were we able to resurrect any of the platforms which we used for replacement of parts and did US give us more platforms to replace the depleted fleet. My understanding was that 2 platforms were provided while we had our own MLUed and these were to be retained after MLU process was completed. So what is our current inventory?sorry for such a long diatribe.
> A



Of the original 40 'delivered' to PAF. We actually lost '8' for different reasons. Leaving us with 32. How many were operational at that time is another matter. MLU update was bound to bring the entire fleet of 32 airframes to life.

Then came 14 embargoed + 18 C/Ds + 13 Jordanian equaling to 77

The two platforms you are talking about were transferred to us on an adhoc basis from the approved transfer of '14'. We later received the remaining 12. All of these were B models hence we lost the only 2 'A' model F-16s delivered by US to us (not factoring Jordanian which were 12 A's + 1B)


On the subject of cannibalization, PAF always strives to keep its fleet readiness at 90% plus for reasons. We recently saw a $125M contract awarded to Booz Allen Hamilton Engineering Services LLC from Ohio in August 2019. They sent 60 men to Pakistan with all the spares, tools and maintenance methods to keep our fleet airworthy. This happened after Swift retort. Also, This has been happening every few years.




Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> @airomerix Sir do PAF have F16s in reserve?



We only have 75 airframes.

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## StormBreaker

khanasifm said:


> all paper experts have stated their theories
> 
> I am guessing how many air accidents investigations have they actually conducted
> 
> leave it professionals and do not speculate


Investigation is not restricted profession dear, Talents are those, who try hard to come close despite of not being related to such field such as forensics or Investigators...


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## Windjammer

airomerix said:


> We only have 75 airframes.


Correct me if I'm wrong, No.5 is using all the 18 Block-52s.....No.19 has the 13 Jordanian machines on strength.
Which leaves 44 airframes, 9 and 11 probably have 16 aircraft each which leaves at least 12 in reserves.

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## Pakistani Fighter

airomerix said:


> fleet readiness at 90% plus for reason


MashALLAH

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## airomerix

Windjammer said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, No.5 is using all the 18 Block-52s.....No.19 has the 13 Jordanian machines on strength.
> Which leaves 44 airframes, 9 and 11 probably have 16 aircraft each which leaves at least 12 in reserves.



Squadron strength is secret information.

Some frames are with 29 as well.

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## Windjammer

airomerix said:


> Squadron strength is secret information.
> 
> Some frames are with 29 as well.


Oh yes how can forget the Aggressors.

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## StormBreaker

airomerix said:


> Squadron strength is *secret information.*
> 
> Some frames are with 29 as well.


 Didn’t knew that

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## Nomad40

CAUTION OFF TOPIC DO NOT BAN ME 

Trumps a Fool lets git some F-35's ( we cant just say No )

USAF will replace its F-16 fleets with the F-35 and the bone yard in Tucson has more than whopping 300+ f-16 ( since USAF will be Replacing the F-16 technology TRUMP would be on Board he is a Business man he will like this venture. If Pakistan manages to secure even 35% of this 100% operational F-16's than oh BOY.

THE FLEET IS GOING DOWN IN THE BONE YARDS (mostly QF-16 conversions) BUT WE SHOULD BY SOME OF THEM

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## StormBreaker

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> CAUTION OFF TOPIC DO NOT BAN ME
> 
> Trumps a Fool lets git some F-35's ( we cant just say No )
> 
> USAF will replace its F-16 fleets with the F-35 and the bone yard in Tucson has more than whopping 300+ f-16 ( since USAF will be Replacing the F-16 technology TRUMP would be on Board he is a Business man he will like this venture. If Pakistan manages to secure even 35% of this 100% operational F-16's than oh BOY.
> 
> THE FLEET IS GOING DOWN IN THE BONE YARDS (mostly QF-16 conversions) BUT WE SHOULD BY SOME OF THEM
> View attachment 613584
> View attachment 613585


If drooling had any face...

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## Nomad40

StormBreaker said:


> If drooling had any face...


yeah BUDDY they are there in the desert HOT at day FREEZING at Night just take my breath away 

I got some Sweet Sweet F-35 Footage But i cannot upload because you cant upload personal videos.


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## StormBreaker

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> yeah BUDDY they are there in the desert HOT at day FREEZING at Night just take my breath away
> 
> I got some Sweet Sweet F-35 Footage But i cannot upload because you cant upload personal videos.


That deserted fleet is twice more than what we have...
If only we had them...


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

airomerix said:


> Of the original 40 'delivered' to PAF. We actually lost '8' for different reasons. Leaving us with 32. How many were operational at that time is another matter. MLU update was bound to bring the entire fleet of 32 airframes to life.
> 
> Then came 14 embargoed + 18 C/Ds + 13 Jordanian equaling to 77
> 
> The two platforms you are talking about were transferred to us on an adhoc basis from the approved transfer of '14'. We later received the remaining 12. All of these were B models hence we lost the only 2 'A' model F-16s delivered by US to us (not factoring Jordanian which were 12 A's + 1B)
> 
> 
> On the subject of cannibalization, PAF always strives to keep its fleet readiness at 90% plus for reasons. We recently saw a $125M contract awarded to Booz Allen Hamilton Engineering Services LLC from Ohio in August 2019. They sent 60 men to Pakistan with all the spares, tools and maintenance methods to keep our fleet airworthy. This happened after Swift retort. Also, This has been happening every few years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We only have 75 airframes.


I've read on various places that the 11 aircraft from Peace Gate III were meant to be attrition reserves. So, I guess for a fleet of around 90-100 F-16s, the PAF wanted to keep an extra 10 or so in storage.

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## Nomad40

StormBreaker said:


> That deserted fleet is twice more than what we have...
> If only we had them...


F-35

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## Raider 21

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> CAUTION OFF TOPIC DO NOT BAN ME
> 
> Trumps a Fool lets git some F-35's ( we cant just say No )
> 
> USAF will replace its F-16 fleets with the F-35 and the bone yard in Tucson has more than whopping 300+ f-16 ( since USAF will be Replacing the F-16 technology TRUMP would be on Board he is a Business man he will like this venture. If Pakistan manages to secure even 35% of this 100% operational F-16's than oh BOY.
> 
> THE FLEET IS GOING DOWN IN THE BONE YARDS (mostly QF-16 conversions) BUT WE SHOULD BY SOME OF THEM
> View attachment 613584
> View attachment 613585


14 of the delivered PAF Vipers have spent some time in this desert for a few years.

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## mingle

Knuckles said:


> 14 of the delivered PAF Vipers have spent some time in this desert for a few years.


If Trump is good business man he would never offer Pak F16s. He knows we love them but F16s still selling like hott cakes he will force Pak to go after boeing products I know these planes are expensive but boeing is in trouble as businesses man I will offer product which is not selling well. Pak should look into twin engine jet now.


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## MastanKhan

mingle said:


> If Trump is good business man he would never offer Pak F16s. He knows we love them but F16s still selling like hott cakes he will force Pak to go after boeing products I know these planes are expensive but boeing is in trouble as businesses man I will offer product which is not selling well. Pak should look into twin engine jet now.



Hi,

You are correct in a way that Boeing is in trouble---. If we make the contract now and by the time the aircraft is ready---Boeing may not be in trouble and then they will hold our product like before---.

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## mingle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are correct in a way that Boeing is in trouble---. If we make the contract now and by the time the aircraft is ready---Boeing may not be in trouble and then they will hold our product like before---.


MK We may get good package as well PAF should look into twin engine platform. Mark my words I doubt Trump will sell Us F-16 He will force Us towards Boeing since F18 super hornet lines are closed now so only left is F15s except USAF there are no more buyers for eagles.
Maxx killed them.

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## Nomad40

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are correct in a way that Boeing is in trouble---. If we make the contract now and by the time the aircraft is ready---Boeing may not be in trouble and then they will hold our product like before---.





mingle said:


> MK We may get good package as well PAF should look into twin engine platform. Mark my words I doubt Trump will sell Us F-16 He will force Us towards Boeing since F18 super hornet lines are closed now so only left is F15s except USAF there are no more buyers for eagles.
> Maxx killed them.


We Have a Golden opportunity to buy what ever we can we just have to muster the funds

PN should get those b-737 parked at Seattle and send them to turkey and to what ever they wish to add DESI P-8 and than Trump being a business man those F-16 are just rotting for him it will be bringing more to the economy to build the wall HECK PLAYING THE CARDS RIGHT WE MIGHT GET SOME THREE FIVE ACTION.

F-15 amazing plane (air superiority)
F-18 amazing Plane (NICE AOA, comparable to the block 52)

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## mingle

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> We Have a Golden opportunity to buy what ever we can we just have to muster the funds
> 
> PN should get those b-737 parked at Seattle and send them to turkey and to what ever they wish to add DESI P-8 and than Trump being a business man those F-16 are just rotting HECK PLAYING THE CARDS RIGHT WE MIGHT GET SOME THREE FIVE ACTION.


Sir Jee those planes been paid LM already made money old plane may be good for Pak but not for LM for them New plane is money like new car not car at junk yard


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## Ultima Thule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> We Have a Golden opportunity to buy what ever we can we just have to muster the funds
> 
> PN should get those b-737 parked at Seattle and send them to turkey and to what ever they wish to add DESI P-8 and than Trump being a business man those F-16 are just rotting for him it will be bringing more to the economy to build the wall HECK PLAYING THE CARDS RIGHT WE MIGHT GET SOME THREE FIVE ACTION.
> 
> F-15 amazing plane (air superiority)
> F-18 amazing Plane (NICE AOA, comparable to the block 52)


i think we have least chance to get either F-15 or P-8

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## Nomad40

mingle said:


> Sir Jee those planes been paid LM already made money old plane may be good for Pak but not for LM for them New plane is money like new car not car at junk yard


Arey bhai urdu me bolday, Mujhay pata hay naya maal me ziada paise hay Magar uski factria band pari hay usko bolo bhai hamari requirement hay 100 jahaz ki tumhari factri band hy hum chalaengy worker tere farigh hya hum kam dengy 40-60 split karou naya purana mix



seven0seven said:


> i think we have least chance to get either F-15 or P-8


Yes but 737 parked and grounded, we can by those (civil versions and make a DESI P-8)

F-15/F-35 are Truly hard for PAF to acquire but not Impossible. If PAF Plays their card right than we have minute-mediocre chances to get 2-3 squadrons.

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## mingle

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Arey bhai urdu me bolday, Mujhay pata hay naya maal me ziada paise hay Magar uski factria band pari hay usko bolo bhai hamari requirement hay 100 jahaz ki tumhari factri band hy hum chalaengy worker tere farigh hya hum kam dengy 40-60 split karou naya purana mix
> 
> 
> Yes but 737 parked and grounded, we can by those (civil versions and make a DESI P-8)
> 
> F-15/F-35 are Truly hard for PAF to acquire but not Impossible. If PAF Plays their card right than we have minute-mediocre chances to get 2-3 squadrons.


F15 are the best F35 are not in dog fight but have good sensors so both have pros and cons. But I agree with U depands how we play cards.


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## Nomad40

mingle said:


> F15 are the best F35 are not in dog fight but have good sensors so both have pros and cons. But I agree with U depands how we play cards.



Why do you think F-35 wont excel in a dogfight ?

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## FuturePAF

If Pakistan is directed to buy either the F-15 or the F-18, it should only do so as part of deal securing A huge increase in Pakistani Exports to the US to allow Pakistan to afford this purchase.

For the US it would “re-balance” the relationship with Pakistan and bring it somewhat out of China’s orbit, but would open Pakistan up to deeper US political relations with “civil society” groups.

Of the two platforms, the F-15 offers a superior platform with superior sensors, but will Pakistan be allowed to purchase the F-15 with all the bells and whistles, even if it can come up with the money.

One major positive of operating the F-15 would be having a platform that will be able to match any 4.5 generation platform in the region, if allowed to carry modern EW equipment.

2-3 squadrons may be all that Pakistan needs to maintain air superiority (each plane can carry up to 22 amraams), but Considering all the strings that will be attached, it could be another pressler amendment saga waiting to happen

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## mingle

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Why do you think F-35 wont excel in a dogfight ?


Critics think small wing like F104 a big fat turkey


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## cloud4000

seven0seven said:


> i think we have least chance to get either F-15 or P-8



I don’t know what some people are smoking on this thread, but it must be powerful stuff because it’s leading to delusional thinking.

Well, Trump is a businessman and if we only had the money (actual money, not CSF) we can buy anything we want. Really?

Why is no one talking about the biggest problem in the room? China. US-India are strategic partners for a reason, so why would US give Pakistan any advantage over India even if it was about business?

I’m not saying Pakistan won’t get anything, but it seriously needs to trim its expectations.

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## StormBreaker

Lol @discussion

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## litman

i think we should forget anymoe F-16s from US. they are leaving from afghanistan. thier job is done there so they dont need pak anymore. so no more military equipment rather be ready for some sanctions after a couple of years once their exit from afghanistan is completed.

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## FuturePAF

litman said:


> i think we should forget anymoe F-16s from US. they are leaving from afghanistan. thier job is done there so they dont need pak anymore. so no more military equipment rather be ready for some sanctions after a couple of years once their exit from afghanistan is completed.



This very likely considering the track record of Pak-US relations.

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## Myth_buster_1

litman said:


> i think we should forget anymoe F-16s from US. they are leaving from afghanistan. thier job is done there so they dont need pak anymore. so no more military equipment rather be ready for some sanctions after a couple of years once their exit from afghanistan is completed.



sanctions is already in place sine trump came in power.


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## StormBreaker

litman said:


> i think we should forget anymoe F-16s from US. they are leaving from afghanistan. thier job is done there so they dont need pak anymore. so no more military equipment rather be ready for some sanctions after a couple of years once their exit from afghanistan is completed.





FuturePAF said:


> This very likely consider the track record of Pak-US relations.





Myth_buster_1 said:


> sanctions is already in place sine trump came in power.


Dont you guys get fed up of again and again discussing all this over ? And with the “I think” ? Yea me too sometimes but no use man... It gets depressive overtime, talks and talks, nothing new comes...

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## litman

StormBreaker said:


> Dont you guys get fed up of again and again discussing all this over ? And with the “I think” ? Yea me too sometimes but no use man... It gets depressive overtime, talks and talks, nothing new comes...


we are discussing the most likely possibility and if that happens it will be a cause of concern for PAF. i dont know how much paf is dependent on US for keeping their F-16 fleet well maintained but i can speculate that they are very much dependent .will we be going back to the era of 90s regarding our F-16 fleet or PAF has sufficient reserves of spares to keep its fleet battle worthy? if the worst happens like in the 90s then PAF will become only a JF 17 air force and we will keep few specialized squadrons of mirages as well IMO. may be J 10 will be inducted as a stop gap measure till the time some fifth gen jet becomes operational.

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## Esgalduin

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Why do you think F-35 wont excel in a dogfight ?


The age of the dogfight is long gone. BVR combat has replaced the close-in, intense dogfighting so beloved of aviation nerds the world over. The F35 is an advanced multirole fighter that admittedly did lose a mock dogfight to a F16 during testing but dogfighting is not what the F35 is designed for. It is meant to act as a stealth fighter capable of tracking and engaging enemy fighters before they are even aware of the F35's presence. The F35 was also designed to act as a mini-AWACS of sorts, able to fly alongside and deploy drones, with central command being delegated to the F35 pilot. The f35 is touted to be a game-changer in terms of battlefield awareness, painting a picture of the battlefield conditions for dedicated air superiority and strike fighters. In other words, the F35 is meant to service a new type of aerial warfare, one that features network vs network rather than just jet vs jet.


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## Pandora

FFS after getting slapped again and again by Americans we are still dreaming about F16, F15 and some lunatics dream about F35 as well. 

Just to give some perspective they didnt even give us decades old Alamgir class frigates or some swift class patrol boat so what makes you think that anything new might be on offer. Only reason PAF will consider F16 is to maintain a fleet until we are ready for fifth gen jets down the line. We should settle with the fact that we will be driving F16s like beaten horses just like we did with Mirages. We should be more realistic and shouldn't let our imagination run too wild.

Pakistan can neither afford nor wish for anything other than F16. Even if it gets cleared US will give us nothing more than Blk 52.

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## StormBreaker

Pandora said:


> FFS after getting slapped again and again by Americans we are still dreaming about F16, F15 and some lunatics dream about F35 as well.
> 
> Just to give some perspective they didnt even give us decades old Alamgir class frigates or some swift class patrol boat so what makes you think that anything new might be on offer. Only reason PAF will consider F16 is to maintain a fleet until we are ready for fifth gen jets down the line. We should settle with the fact that we will be driving F16s like beaten horses just like we did with Mirages. We should be more realistic and shouldn't let our imagination run too wild.
> 
> Pakistan can neither afford nor wish for anything other than F16. Even if it gets cleared US will give us nothing more than Blk 52.


Block 3 being superior to Block 60 or equivalent will be the placard to acquire further F-16s since the F-16s will no longer give us technical edge which we already will achieve through Block 3, so more F-16s are a possibility.

No point in discussing this further until any action. I am getting “Bezaar” on this all...

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## denel

StormBreaker said:


> Block 3 being superior to Block 60 or equivalent will be the placard to acquire further F-16s since the F-16s will no longer give us technical edge which we already will achieve through Block 3, so more F-16s are a possibility.
> 
> No point in discussing this further until any action. I am getting “Bezaar” on this all...


Correct... be patient, block 4 should nullify anything additional. There will be a blk4 and blk 5. Blk 3 will highlight a major leap forward in capability but blk4 would more likely focus on more integration, payload and engine

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## Nomad40

mingle said:


> Critics think small wing like F104 a big fat turkey


not true I have seen it perform on 3 occasions NOT an F-22 but I think it has better energy retention than the F-16 and can do a 180 on a dime it is very maneuverable it is fat for a reason.



Esgalduin said:


> The age of the dogfight is long gone. BVR combat has replaced the close-in, intense dogfighting so beloved of aviation nerds the world over. The F35 is an advanced multirole fighter that admittedly did lose a mock dogfight to a F16 during testing but dogfighting is not what the F35 is designed for. It is meant to act as a stealth fighter capable of tracking and engaging enemy fighters before they are even aware of the F35's presence. The F35 was also designed to act as a mini-AWACS of sorts, able to fly alongside and deploy drones, with central command being delegated to the F35 pilot. The f35 is touted to be a game-changer in terms of battlefield awareness, painting a picture of the battlefield conditions for dedicated air superiority and strike fighters. In other words, the F35 is meant to service a new type of aerial warfare, one that features network vs network rather than just jet vs jet.


mhmm I know and A LOT MORE but it flies like a SIXTEEN

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## Windjammer

Window With a killer View.

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## Kabotar

In your assessment what are the things Blk4 solid improved upon?


denel said:


> Correct... be patient, block 4 should nullify anything additional. There will be a blk4 and blk 5. Blk 3 will highlight a major leap forward in capability but blk4 would more likely focus on more integration, payload and engine


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## FuturePAF

Esgalduin said:


> The age of the dogfight is long gone. BVR combat has replaced the close-in, intense dogfighting so beloved of aviation nerds the world over. The F35 is an advanced multirole fighter that admittedly did lose a mock dogfight to a F16 during testing but dogfighting is not what the F35 is designed for. It is meant to act as a stealth fighter capable of tracking and engaging enemy fighters before they are even aware of the F35's presence. The F35 was also designed to act as a mini-AWACS of sorts, able to fly alongside and deploy drones, with central command being delegated to the F35 pilot. The f35 is touted to be a game-changer in terms of battlefield awareness, painting a picture of the battlefield conditions for dedicated air superiority and strike fighters. In other words, the F35 is meant to service a new type of aerial warfare, one that features network vs network rather than just jet vs jet.



it’s not about F-16 Block 70/F-15EX/F-18E/F vs F-35. It’s those advanced variants of 4th gen platforms fusing data and guiding the rest of the Air Force against an Indian Air Force that is 4th and 3rd generation fighters.

This why the PAF needs 2-3 Squadrons of these advanced variant 4th gen fighters to deal with the current IAF threat and still keep our own 5th gen Project AZM going.

The 2-3 squadrons would be a stop gap for the next 15 years. With India getting the S-400 they will probably not get the F-35 and will have to wait for a mature European or Russian or indigenous design to emerge which will probably be in 15 years or so.

The 36-50 stop gap fighters should be enough with Block III JF-17 and upgraded F-16s to keep the Indian at bay.

If PAF is not allowed or cant afford to buy more F-16s or get F-15/F-18 then it will continue on its original plan to double down on the JF-17 and Project AZM. Buying American products is based on the political winds and the CSF funds. IMHO, PAF is not expecting it but just keeping its eyes and ears open, just in case.

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## StormBreaker

FuturePAF said:


> it’s not about F-16 Block 70/F-15EX/F-18E/F vs F-35. It’s those advanced variants of 4th gen platforms fusing data and guiding the rest of the Air Force against an Indian Air Force that is 4th and 3rd generation fighters.
> 
> This why the PAF needs 2-3 Squadrons of these advanced variant 4th gen fighters to deal with the current IAF threat and still keep our own 5th gen Project AZM going.
> 
> The 2-3 squadrons would be a stop gap for the next 15 years. With India getting the S-400 they will probably not get the F-35 and will have to wait for a mature European or Russian or indigenous design to emerge which will probably be in 15 years or so.
> 
> The 36-50 stop gap fighters should be enough with Block III JF-17 and upgraded F-16s to keep the Indian at bay.
> 
> If PAF is not allowed or cant afford to buy more F-16s or get F-15/F-18 then it will continue on its original plan to double down on the JF-17 and Project AZM. Buying American products is based on the political winds and the CSF funds. IMHO, PAF is not expecting it but just keeping its eyes and ears open, just in case.


You are totally wrong in all this.
IAf Is 3rd and 4th for the time being, by 2027-28, their Bisons won’t be even flyable, squadron strength cut, Tejas possibly inducting. IAF is no immediate threat to us, AZM is a brilliant choice of PAF to keep its superiority for atleast two more decades, stay two steps ahead of IAF.

IAF can very well get F-35, USA will try to get S-400 technical info from Turkey if Turkey and USA patch up again, USA will try to improvise F-35 to make S-400 seem to some extent, irrelevant, IAF can get improved F-35...

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## mshan44



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## FuturePAF

StormBreaker said:


> You are totally wrong in all this.
> IAf Is 3rd and 4th for the time being, by 2027-28, their Bisons won’t be even flyable, squadron strength cut, Tejas possibly inducting. IAF is no immediate threat to us, AZM is a brilliant choice of PAF to keep its superiority for atleast two more decades, stay two steps ahead of IAF.
> 
> IAF can very well get F-35, USA will try to get S-400 technical info from Turkey if Turkey and USA patch up again, USA will try to improvise F-35 to make S-400 seem to some extent, irrelevant, IAF can get improved F-35...




I will accept that in a few years the Indian Air Force will be an all 4th generation force.

I will also accept that it is possible the Indians at some point maybe allowed to get the F-35 if the US feels the S-400 is no longer as much of a threat. But currently, even if the Indians are allowed to join the F-35 program and look to purchase the F-35 they will have to wait behind the F-35 partner countries and the US military. Then they will have to be trained and get familiar with the jet, by which time yes the F-35 will be more advanced. This would also be the time Project AZM may see it’s own production and fielding (especially if the T-FX and J-31/J-20 variants are available for export, and if Pakistan selects or develops a domestic design based on their technology) 

The points about acquiring the advanced F-15/F-16/F-18 are that they should be paid for by increased trade with the US and they would only be a stop-gap force for the next 15 years, as well as a good way to acquire other modern technology to integrate into the knowledge base of Project AZM engineers.

Beyond that time, PAF should start fielding Project AZM fighters.

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## Windjammer

*Unusual for No 11 supporting High-viz coveralls.*

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## TheTallGuy

Windjammer said:


> *Unusual for No 11 supporting High-viz coveralls.*
> 
> View attachment 614040



That means sector of operation has changed.


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## Windjammer

TheTallGuy said:


> That means sector of operation has changed.


Either that or during a ferry flight to an overseas exercise.


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## Defense Reader

TheTallGuy said:


> That means sector of operation has changed.


Sir how you knows from your show room in Africa ?

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## Talon

TheTallGuy said:


> That means sector of operation has changed.


Not at all.. most probably some sea related exercise such as Sea Spark held recently.



Windjammer said:


> *Unusual for No 11 supporting High-viz coveralls.*
> 
> View attachment 614040


Totally normal... what's unusual is the pilot having his gloves thumb and finger cut (I noticed this in a music video as well).Pilots now using android tablets instead of knee pads? Good initiative if that's the case.

Edit : but the knee pad is also visible
Still cant cant discard the theory.

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## mshan44

__ https://www.facebook.com/

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## Defense Reader

mshan44 said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/


Mushaf Airbase.....

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## litman

nice video. need to keep up the morale of the nation and its armed forces.


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## GriffinsRule

airomerix said:


> Of the original 40 'delivered' to PAF. We actually lost '8' for different reasons. Leaving us with 32. How many were operational at that time is another matter. MLU update was bound to bring the entire fleet of 32 airframes to life.
> 
> Then came 14 embargoed + 18 C/Ds + 13 Jordanian equaling to 77
> 
> The two platforms you are talking about were transferred to us on an adhoc basis from the approved transfer of '14'. We later received the remaining 12. *All of these were B models hence we lost the only 2 'A' model F-16s delivered by US* to us (not factoring Jordanian which were 12 A's + 1B)
> 
> On the subject of cannibalization, PAF always strives to keep its fleet readiness at 90% plus for reasons. We recently saw a $125M contract awarded to Booz Allen Hamilton Engineering Services LLC from Ohio in August 2019. They sent 60 men to Pakistan with all the spares, tools and maintenance methods to keep our fleet airworthy. This happened after Swift retort. Also, This has been happening every few years.
> 
> We only have 75 airframes.



Just wanted to correct this. We received 3 F-16As in the 90s from the original embargoed ones, 92729, 92730 and 92731. So 3 As and 11Bs. 

From Jordan, we got 13 aircraft, 9 As and 4 Bs

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## airomerix

GriffinsRule said:


> Just wanted to correct this. We received 3 F-16As in the 90s from the original embargoed ones, 92729, 92730 and 92731. So 3 As and 11Bs.
> 
> From Jordan, we got 13 aircraft, 9 As and 4 Bs



http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article4835.html

This article states Jordanian 13 A's and 1 B model. Are you certain about the numbers?

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## Windjammer

airomerix said:


> http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article4835.html
> 
> This article states Jordanian 13 A's and 1 B model. Are you certain about the numbers?


You see at least two B models amongst the first five to arrive.

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## GriffinsRule

airomerix said:


> http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article4835.html
> 
> This article states Jordanian 13 A's and 1 B model. Are you certain about the numbers?


Yep, most definitely. 14-623 through 14-627. The mix changed at some point before the actual delivery.

Btw anyone has any other picture of 92729 besides this one below?

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## ghazi52

Two Friends, Two Squadron Mates, Two Griffins, Two ACE F-16 Operators & Both Went Down With Their F-16s .

Squadron Leader Saud Ghulam Nabi Shaheed :- July 17, 2009 In F-16 A Serial #92729 .

Wing Commander Noman Akram Shaheed :- March 11, 2020 In F-16 AM Serial #92730 .

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## airomerix

GriffinsRule said:


> Yep, most definitely. 14-623 through 14-627. The mix changed at some point before the actual delivery.
> 
> Btw anyone has any other picture of 92729 besides this one below?



Before transfer to PAF (92729)






Before transfer to PAF. (92730)

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## mshan44




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## Phantom.



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## GriffinsRule

airomerix said:


> Before transfer to PAF (92729)
> 
> 
> Before transfer to PAF. (92730)
> 
> View attachment 614197



That is not the same 92730 that crashed in PAF. This particular aircraft is still flying with the US Navy.

The aircraft below, 92-0406, originally had the PAF s.no 92737 and was reassigned the 92730 serial number.

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## Incog_nito

Although, PAF had a very extensive experience related to F-16s in their fleet. But is PAF looking to acquire more new & used F-16s? If yes, then will that be Block-70 which is based on the Block-52 airframes (I guess).


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## Windjammer



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## mshan44

View attachment 615494

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## mshan44



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## Blacklight

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You are correct in a way that Boeing is in trouble---. *If we make the contract now and by the time the aircraft is ready---Boeing may not be in trouble and then they will hold our product like before-*--.


Be it Boeing, or Lockheed, how do we get around this..?


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## Trailer23

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 615988


Squadron No. 5 (Falcons) with their Block 52's during Red Flag in 2016.

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## MastanKhan

Blacklight said:


> Be it Boeing, or Lockheed, how do we get around this..?



Hi,

There is no way to do it---.

If pak military had established bases in Yemen---we could have had everything---.

Remember---you don't get nothing from a position of weakness from the americans---.

Americans don't like beggars begging from a weak position---. You have to be strong---you have to show strength to the americans---even though you are a beggar---.

Pakistan under Imran Khan is a beggar begging from a weak position---.

Second---never tell the americans that their military will get a tought fight against a certain enemy---like Imran Khan mentioning---.

American military never gets a tough fight since the vietnam war---but then also it had its hands tied to the back by the US congress---.

Imran Khan blundered into making that statement---. If the US does not make an example out of Iran---they will certainly make it out of pakistan to put the loud mouthed pakistani in its place---.

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## mingle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is no way to do it---.
> 
> If pak military had established bases in Yemen---we could have had everything---.
> 
> Remember---you don't get nothing from a position of weakness from the americans---.
> 
> Americans don't like beggars begging from a weak position---. You have to be strong---you have to show strength to the americans---even though you are a beggar---.
> 
> Pakistan under Imran Khan is a beggar begging from a weak position---.
> 
> Second---never tell the americans that their military will get a tought fight against a certain enemy---like Imran Khan mentioning---.
> 
> American military never gets a tough fight since the vietnam war---but then also it had its hands tied to the back by the US congress---.
> 
> Imran Khan blundered into making that statement---. If the US does not make an example out of Iran---they will certainly make it out of pakistan to put the loud mouthed pakistani in its place---.


IK statement about sanctions is totally humanitarian based if US wants to lift curbs they can monitor it there is no political reason in it


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## Blacklight

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is no way to do it---.
> 
> *If pak military had established bases in Yemen---we could have had everything---.*
> 
> Remember---you don't get nothing from a position of weakness from the americans---.
> 
> Americans don't like beggars begging from a weak position---. You have to be strong---you have to show strength to the americans---even though you are a beggar---.
> 
> Pakistan under Imran Khan is a beggar begging from a weak position---.
> 
> Second---never tell the americans that their military will get a tought fight against a certain enemy---like Imran Khan mentioning---.
> 
> American military never gets a tough fight since the vietnam war---but then also it had its hands tied to the back by the US congress---.
> 
> Imran Khan blundered into making that statement---. If the US does not make an example out of Iran---they will certainly make it out of pakistan to put the loud mouthed pakistani in its place---.


The Aggressor in Yemen was and is Iran. Pakistan would have never been able to pull that off.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

You kids are so innocent---where is the deciet larceny and cunning in you kids--- ---no one teaches you to sabotage the enemy thru media---.

Only if you read the east india company history---.

Okay---big deal if pak forces could not contain Iran's aggression just for the sake of argument---it would still have allowed to create a large fighting force in that region which would be an excellent economic base---.

Pakistan military would have steam rolled over the opposition---.

Pakistan kids and men are the most thoughtless of people I have come across when it comes to national interests---.

There were so many different tactical and strategic ways to build to military force in that region---.

But over here they want to make sure to disclose everything on a world forum---.

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## Trailer23

To Whom It May Concern:​
If any Nation wishes to test Pakistan & make an example just 'cause they couldn't get the job done in Afghanistan & theoretically weren't able to tame a Sanctions Hit Nation, doesn't want to Tango with Pakistan which has a strong support like China.

We'd hate to see a vietNAM 2.0 all over again.

I'm sure [certain] posers who hate the Nation of Pakistan would love nothing more. But this Nation has more backbone than others, so testing us shouldn't be sign of weakness.

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## Nomad40

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You kids are so innocent---where is the deciet larceny and cunning in you kids--- ---no one teaches you to sabotage the enemy thru media---.
> 
> Only if you read the east india company history---.
> 
> Okay---big deal if pak forces could not contain Iran's aggression just for the sake of argument---it would still have allowed to create a large fighting force in that region which would be an excellent economic base---.
> 
> Pakistan military would have steam rolled over the opposition---.
> 
> Pakistan kids and men are the most thoughtless of people I have come across when it comes to national interests---.
> 
> There were so many different tactical and strategic ways to build to military force in that region---.
> 
> But over here they want to make sure to disclose everything on a world forum---.


It is best to keep out of those parts for Obvious and Various reasons. 

every one knows who does what and what has to be done to undo the doing of the bad in those parts.


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## North Star

I thought it was a F16 discussion thread.

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## mshan44



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## airomerix

PAF F-16B Fighting Falcon model with AIM-7M Sparrow missiles presented to an official in the early 2000's.

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## Pakistani Fighter

airomerix said:


> PAF F-16B Fighting Falcon model with AIM-7M Sparrow missiles presented to an official in the early 2000's.
> 
> View attachment 616944
> View attachment 616945


Whats that orange thing?


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## airomerix

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Whats that orange thing?



AGM-65 Maverick.

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## Adam_Khan

airomerix said:


> PAF F-16B Fighting Falcon model with AIM-7M Sparrow missiles presented to an official in the early 2000's.
> 
> View attachment 616944
> View attachment 616945



Probably made by someone who didn't know anything about aircraft as AIM.7's were never carried on that hardpoint. Secondly the orange thing is a cluster bomb.

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## Nomad40

airomerix said:


> PAF F-16B Fighting Falcon model with AIM-7M Sparrow missiles presented to an official in the early 2000's.
> 
> View attachment 616944
> View attachment 616945


I have made better Revel and air fix models in 2 hours

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## airomerix

Adam_Khan said:


> Probably made by someone who didn't know anything about aircraft as AIM.7's were never carried on that hardpoint. Secondly the orange thing is a cluster bomb.



True. Station 3 and 7 have been used by USAF and NATO. 

As for the orange load, I figured its a badly made AGM-65.

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## TheTallGuy

airomerix said:


> True. Station 3 and 7 have been used by USAF and NATO.
> 
> As for the orange load, I figured its a badly made AGM-65.



sir, orange one is more of a CBU87 then AGM-65

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## Trailer23

No offence, but it is a ghastly diecast of a PAF-16.

I've certainly seen faaaar better.

Whats with the 'Patriots'? Was the person a _New England Patriots_ fan?

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## Trailer23

A decade old footage, but what the hell...

A group of PAF F-16's from No. 9 Squadron (_Griffins_) landing at Nellis AFB during Red Flag 2010.

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## loanranger

Trailer23 said:


> A decade old footage, but what the hell...
> 
> A group of PAF F-16's from No. 9 Squadron (_Griffins_) landing at Nellis AFB during Red Flag 2010.


Wish we had more exclusive inside the cockpit content to work with....
PAF please let us have ittt...


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## khanasifm

Adam_Khan said:


> Probably made by someone who didn't know anything about aircraft as AIM.7's were never carried on that hardpoint. Secondly the orange thing is a cluster bomb.




Agree aim -7 are almost 250 kg much heavier than aim-120


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## mshan44



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## mshan44

A historic picture of falcon riders. Wing Commander Noman Khan & Wing Commander Nouman Akram Shaheed. ❤️

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## GriffinsRule

mshan44 said:


> A historic picture of falcon riders. Wing Commander Noman Khan & Wing Commander Nouman Akram Shaheed. ❤️
> 
> 
> View attachment 617644


Looks like pre-MLU days Red Flag?


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## Dazzler



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## Viper27

Dazzler said:


>



PAF pilot flying Turkish viper..nice.


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## Apex

Dazzler said:


>


That is actually an Turkish pilot the PAF and TuAF pilots exchanged badges...And you can also see the ranks on his shoulder clearly blue and only Turkish pilots wear blue ranks whereas PAF pilots support green ranks on their coveralls.


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## Dazzler

Apex said:


> That is actually an Turkish pilot the PAF and TuAF pilots exchanged badges...And you can also see the ranks on his shoulder clearly blue and only Turkish pilots wear blue ranks whereas PAF pilots support green ranks on their coveralls.



I know. 

The camouflage, the text on the caution arrow gives it away. Exchange pilots.

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## Talon

Dazzler said:


> I know.
> 
> The camouflage, the text on the caution arrow gives it away. Exchange pilots.


No not exchange pilots,just exchanged patches.

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## airomerix

Declassified Peace Gate FMS F-16 sales to Pakistan - A case study



GriffinsRule said:


> Looks like pre-MLU days Red Flag?



Anatolian Eagle 12/2 at Konya I believe.

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## GriffinsRule

airomerix said:


> Declassified Peace Gate FMS F-16 sales to Pakistan - A case study
> 
> 
> 
> Anatolian Eagle 12/2 at Konya I believe.



Hearings on PAF's AEW/AWACS acquisition attempts in 1987. Might dispel some people's views on what was actually happening.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=pst.000014317279&view=1up&seq=1

Hearing on using FMS money on F-16MLU (just redistribution of monies congress had okayed, where PAF took $110MM away from upgrading P-3Cs and applied it towards MLU, and some congressman having a fit). If nothing else, it shows the procedural stuff that goes in the background.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=pst.000065511831&view=1up&seq=1

Proposed sale of F-16s 2006
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=pst.000058930229&view=1up&seq=8
There are lots of other stuff I will let people search and read for themselves

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## Raider 21

airomerix said:


> Declassified Peace Gate FMS F-16 sales to Pakistan - A case study
> 
> 
> 
> Anatolian Eagle 12/2 at Konya I believe.


It looks familiar to the file on DTIC, unless it is the exact same one. Great share !!!





Years ago during an exercise

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## GriffinsRule

Summary of US Monitoring of F-16C/Ds

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## Trailer23

Currently working on a new edit - this time on the *Pakistan Armed Forces*.

Found this vid on the .net & thought i'd share it. It may or may not have been uploaded in the past.

ACM flying with the No. 19 Squadron (_Sherdils_) - Block 15 ADF.

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## nomi007

Number of F-16s are decreasing which is alarming


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## Pakistani Fighter

nomi007 said:


> Number of F-16s are decreasing which is alarming


We have 75


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## AFlover

GriffinsRule said:


> Summary of US Monitoring of F-16C/Ds
> 
> View attachment 617674


This US monitoring has any contractual period (number of years) restrictions or its unlimited to any number of years they can monitor? With the advancement of technology in many countries especially in China there r many components and features that China has already developed in their J-10, J-20 so how long Pakistan will have to pay and get tied up with these restrictions?


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## Haris Ali2140

AFlover said:


> This US monitoring has any contractual period (number of years) restrictions or its unlimited to any number of years they can monitor? With the advancement of technology in many countries especially in China there r many components and features that China has already developed in their J-10, J-20 so how long Pakistan will have to pay and get tied up with these restrictions?


Don't tell me we are paying US for monitoring our F-16s???


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## AFlover

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Don't tell me we are paying US for monitoring our F-16s???



I read it somewhere few years back that it was part of the package that include millions of $ for US surveillance of our F-16 B52 that PAF had agreed to pay. May be it was poor pak media reporting as sometimes they write many inauthentic news.


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## Haris Ali2140

AFlover said:


> I read it somewhere few years back that it was part of the package that include millions of $ for US surveillance of our F-16 B52 that PAF had agreed to pay. May it was poor pak media reporting as sometimes they write many inauthentic news.


@Dazzler @airomerix @Quwa


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## MIRauf

About the monitoring fee question, before people here get upset with an answer that is not to your liking, do you think that the F-16s performance on the Feb 27 makes the fee ( unfair if being paid by PAF / Pak ) something that PAF / Pak can live with ?

All you have to do is close your eyes and imagine that no F-16s were present and only JF-17 and M3/5. Then what do you think the outcome would have been ? I am not trying to make F-16s seems like God of War, but in PAF / IAF case in a sense it is.

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## AFlover

MIRauf said:


> About the monitoring fee question, before people here get upset with an answer that is not to your liking, do you think that the F-16s performance on the Feb 27 makes the fee ( unfair if being paid by PAF / Pak ) something that PAF / Pak can live with ?
> 
> All you have to do is close your eyes and imagine that no F-16s were present and only JF-17 and M3/5. Then what do you think the outcome would have been ? I am not trying to make F-16s seems like God of War, but in PAF / IAF case in a sense it is.


Thank brother for the explanation, your reply rightly conclude the fee related misunderstanding.
The main question that I wanted to know is still there, that is how long US will continue surveillance? Was it contracted to monitor for 10, 15, 20 years or the clause will remain active as long as the AC is in service ?

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## airomerix

Pakistan is paying nothing for any sort of surveillance. Americans pay for it themselves as part of their overseas missions and deployments.

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## Haris Ali2140

airomerix said:


> Pakistan is paying nothing for any sort of surveillance. Americans pay for it themselves as part of their overseas missions and deployments.


Well then they should give us F-22 and we will host a batallion. We will just take some strolls once a while to the east.


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## khanasifm

Check last Dsca notification ??


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## Sinnerman108

airomerix said:


> Pakistan is paying nothing for any sort of surveillance. Americans pay for it themselves as part of their overseas missions and deployments.



That is not how business works.
you may not realize it, but you are paying for it.

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## Trailer23

@Hodor @mingle @airomerix @Windjammer @Path-Finder @StormBreaker

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## StructE

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Don't tell me we are paying US for monitoring our F-16s???



Through coalition support fund, not hard cash.


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## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> @Hodor @mingle @airomerix @Windjammer @Path-Finder @StormBreaker
> 
> View attachment 618351​


Sir you using DCS simulator or it's someone else's?


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## Incog_nito

Will PAF going to buy some more new F-16s from the USA in the coming time?
Block-70 will be the only and a good option.

Moreover, what about the degradation of current Block-15s (MUL-3) and Block-52s? I guess they will be upgraded to the same standard soon; maybe by USA or else EU or Turkey.

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## Viper27

Oz@ir Akhtar said:


> Will PAF going to buy some more new F-16s from the USA in the coming time?
> Block-70 will be the only and a good option.
> 
> Moreover, what about the degradation of current Block-15s (MUL-3) and Block-52s? I guess they will be upgraded to the same standard soon; maybe by USA or else EU or Turkey.



If the Covid problem is not brought under control soon we will be in a big problem maintaining our current fleet let alone look for new fighters. I don't think many understand the financial crisis that's looming over the horizon.

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## Trailer23

Hodor said:


> Sir you using DCS simulator or it's someone else's?


None of the above.

*Timestamped*

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## khanasifm

Trailer23 said:


> None of the above.
> 
> *Timestamped*





khanasifm said:


>


Why shouting ?? Not sure who come up with this bull6789

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## mshan44



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## Trailer23

US just approved Upgrade of *32* S.Korean F-16's (Block 32) for US $194 Million.

That's about US $6 Million per jet. If we were to get the same rate, it'd come down to...say US 79 Million for all 13 ex-RJAF F-16's.

Hamaray F-16's ko upgrade karnay pay maut ati hai.

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## Kabotar

Is it 6 Mil for V-upgrades?


Trailer23 said:


> US just approved Upgrade of *32* S.Korean F-16's (Block 32) for US $194 Million.
> 
> That's about US $6 Million per jet. If we were to get the same rate, it'd come down to...say US 79 Million for all 13 ex-RJAF F-16's.
> 
> Hamaray F-16's ko upgrade karnay pay maut ati hai.


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## Trailer23

Kabotar said:


> Is it 6 Mil for V-upgrades?





1. Mode 5 Identification Friend or Foe (IFF)
2. The Link 16 Tactical Datalink
- and includes a range of services and equipment.

Seoul is in the process of upgrading *134 F-16 C/Ds to the F-16V* standard, with new avionics as well as an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, the Northrop Grumman APG-81.

https://www.flightglobal.com/usa-approves-new-iff-datalink-for-korean-f-16s/137630.article

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## Haris Ali2140

Trailer23 said:


> US just approved Upgrade of *32* S.Korean F-16's (Block 32) for US $194 Million.
> 
> That's about US $6 Million per jet. If we were to get the same rate, it'd come down to...say US 79 Million for all 13 ex-RJAF F-16's.
> 
> Madr-C-ö ko hamaray F-16's ko upgrade karnay pay maut ati hai.


But Morocco is paying US $30 mil for single upgrade.

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## Trailer23

Haris Ali2140 said:


> But Morocco is paying US $30 mil for single upgrade.


Maybe US $6 Million is just for point 1 & 2 as I mentioned earlier. Khuda janay.


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## volatile

Trailer23 said:


> Maybe US $6 Million is just for point 1 & 2 as I mentioned earlier. Khuda janay.


Some time prelimary contracts are signed to study the feasibility and with minor upgrades .F16 V package is not retrofitting one radar it is quite complex .
https://www.dw.com/en/lockheed-martin-to-upgrade-greeces-f-16-fighter-jets/a-51815309
Greece boasts a fleet of some 150 *F-16* fighters. Earlier this month, Defense Minister Nikos Panagiotopoulos told the parliament that 84 of them would be upgraded to the advanced Viper class by 2027. The total *cost* of the *upgrade* program is estimated to reach $1.5 billion. So overall package is around 60/65 Million per piece .

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## mshan44



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## Trailer23

Since we talk a great deal about the F-16's in general.

I was wondering if there was any material anyone may have come across any material where there is a difference between the *Block 60* & *Block 70/72*.

The UAEAF Block 60 (Desert Falcon) is a Beast!
Good read: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...e-of-uaes-block-60-f-16e-f-desert-falcon-does

I can't seem to find any good material on YouTube either.

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## Adam_Khan

The only upgrade that I would desperately want on our F.16's is Auto GCAS because majority of the F.16 crashes in our history have sadly been CFIT's.

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## Trailer23

Adam_Khan said:


> The only upgrade that I would desperately want on our F.16's is Auto GCAS because majority of the F.16 crashes in our history have sadly been CFIT's.


I actually didn't know that our F-16's lacked Auto GCAS. What about the Block 52's of _No. 5 Squadron (Falcons)_?

*A video on Lockheed Martin's Official Website*

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## xbat

Japanese F35s doesnt have this system too(crashed into sea), i think none of export versions US Fighters have this capability.


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## Blacklight

Trailer23 said:


> Since we talk a great deal about the F-16's in general.
> 
> I was wondering if there was any material anyone may have come across any material where there is a difference between the *Block 60* & *Block 70/72*.
> 
> The UAEAF Block 60 (Desert Falcon) is a Beast!
> Good read: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...e-of-uaes-block-60-f-16e-f-desert-falcon-does
> 
> I can't seem to find any good material on YouTube either.


I remember reading on this forum about how the Blk60's have a liquid cooled radar, Vs air cooled for Blk70/72, besides it has a higher thrust engine, built in IRST, and was in the process of getting more upgrades.



Trailer23 said:


> I actually didn't know that our F-16's lacked Auto GCAS. What about the Block 52's of _No. 5 Squadron (Falcons)_?
> 
> *A video on Lockheed Martin's Official Website*


Our Blk52'sdont have GCAS @Windjammer would be the right person to unequivocally confirm this.

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## aliyusuf

Trailer23 said:


> View attachment 619282​1. Mode 5 Identification Friend or Foe (IFF)
> 2. The Link 16 Tactical Datalink
> - and includes a range of services and equipment.
> 
> Seoul is in the process of upgrading *134 F-16 C/Ds to the F-16V* standard, with new avionics as well as an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, the Northrop Grumman APG-81.
> 
> https://www.flightglobal.com/usa-approves-new-iff-datalink-for-korean-f-16s/137630.article


Isn't the APG-81 AESA radar the FCR of the F-35? How come that can fit into the nose of the F-16? The F-35 has a roomier nose cone.

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## Haris Ali2140

aliyusuf said:


> Isn't the APG-81 AESA radar the FCR of the F-35? How come that can fit into the nose of the F-16? The F-35 has a roomier nose cone.


@Trailer23 I think V has APG-83.

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## aliyusuf

Haris Ali2140 said:


> @Trailer23 I think V has APG-83.


The mistake is made in the article @Trailer23 quoted from. But you are right ... It is APG-83 SABR AESA.

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## Blacklight

aliyusuf said:


> Isn't the APG-81 AESA radar the FCR of the F-35? How come that can fit into the nose of the F-16? The F-35 has a roomier nose cone.





Haris Ali2140 said:


> @Trailer23 I think V has APG-83.


https://www.northropgrumman.com/air...apg-83-aesa-for-the-f-16-and-legacy-aircraft/

https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-...guard-f-16-receives-aesa-radar/136067.article

https://www.janes.com/article/94625/usaf-buys-aesa-radars-for-f-16s

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## Thorough Pro

The cost depends on the upgrade package 



Trailer23 said:


> US just approved Upgrade of *32* S.Korean F-16's (Block 32) for US $194 Million.
> 
> That's about US $6 Million per jet. If we were to get the same rate, it'd come down to...say US 79 Million for all 13 ex-RJAF F-16's.
> 
> Hamaray F-16's ko upgrade karnay pay maut ati hai.

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## Adam_Khan

Trailer23 said:


> I actually didn't know that our F-16's lacked Auto GCAS. What about the Block 52's of _No. 5 Squadron (Falcons)_?
> 
> *A video on Lockheed Martin's Official Website*



No they don't have it,the upgrade was only done for few American vipers and is being offered for latest block 70 vipers.


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## Blacklight

We should have gotten it long time ago

_*What Viper Pilots Say*

I interviewed a number of current and former F-16 pilots on this subject and have yet to meet one who didn’t like the system, or the new capability. “The system works as advertised. The documented saves are impressive. I think of the lives that could have been saved over the years…I am extremely grateful that we won’t have as many of those tragedies in the future.” Col David “Baja” Shoemaker, Vice Commander, 56th Fighter Wing, Luke AFB.


“Rhett” Butler (F-16 Test Pilot and Weapons Officer) also says it’s a “great system that pays for itself with just one aircraft save. *I’ve used AGCAS on* the BLK-60 and *BLK-52* and found it very reliable with few unnecessary fly ups based on formation interference and/or high dive/air-to-air maneuvering that is easily paddled off when recognized.”
https://sofrep.com/fightersweep/in-the-seat-with-agcas-those-lost-and-those-saved/

Published July 19, 2018
Seventy-five percent of F-16 fatalities are due to CFIT, spatial disorientation, and g loss of consciousness: our Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System (Auto GCAS) can prevent 98 percent of these. Since September 2014, Auto GCAS is credited with saving 7 aircraft and 8 pilots.
https://www.wpafb.af.mil/Welcome/Fa...utomatic-collision-avoidance-technology-acat/_

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16AM-Fighting-Falcon/2007

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## mshan44



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## MastanKhan

Blacklight said:


> We should have gotten it long time ago
> 
> _*What Viper Pilots Say*
> 
> I interviewed a number of current and former F-16 pilots on this subject and have yet to meet one who didn’t like the system, or the new capability. “The system works as advertised. The documented saves are impressive. I think of the lives that could have been saved over the years…I am extremely grateful that we won’t have as many of those tragedies in the future.” Col David “Baja” Shoemaker, Vice Commander, 56th Fighter Wing, Luke AFB.
> 
> 
> “Rhett” Butler (F-16 Test Pilot and Weapons Officer) also says it’s a “great system that pays for itself with just one aircraft save. *I’ve used AGCAS on* the BLK-60 and *BLK-52* and found it very reliable with few unnecessary fly ups based on formation interference and/or high dive/air-to-air maneuvering that is easily paddled off when recognized.”
> https://sofrep.com/fightersweep/in-the-seat-with-agcas-those-lost-and-those-saved/
> 
> Published July 19, 2018
> Seventy-five percent of F-16 fatalities are due to CFIT, spatial disorientation, and g loss of consciousness: our Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System (Auto GCAS) can prevent 98 percent of these. Since September 2014, Auto GCAS is credited with saving 7 aircraft and 8 pilots.
> https://www.wpafb.af.mil/Welcome/Fa...utomatic-collision-avoidance-technology-acat/_



Hi 

if you suggested it to the PAF they will say yes we have tested it and it does not meet our standard we do not think it’s worth it and it does not bring anything new to the table

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi
> 
> if you suggested it to the PAF they will say yes we have tested it and it does not meet our standard we do not think it’s worth it and it does not bring anything new to the table


But they have not tested it. How do you know that it does not meet their standards and it won't bring anything new ??

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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> But they have not tested it. How do you know that it does not meet their standards and it won't bring anything new ??



Hi,

Once the 'answer' becomes a standard utterance---then that is expected as the standard response---until and unless they come up with a new jargon---

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## nomi007

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 615988

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## Trailer23

You know @Knuckles , sometimes I have query 'bout stuff that i'm not aware of, but only deem fit to ask Questions from those whom I know will give a me an accurate and *straight forward response* like yourself, @airomerix , @Hodor , @Windjammer among others.

Hope you understand where this post is going.

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## Trailer23

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 620323


That is one awesome closeup of the Block 52.


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## MastanKhan

Trailer23 said:


> You know @Knuckles , sometimes I have query 'bout stuff that i'm not aware of, but only deem fit to ask Questions from those whom I know will give a me an accurate and *straight forward response* like yourself, @airomerix , @Hodor , @Windjammer among others.
> 
> Hope you understand where this post is going.



Hi,

We are In a state of war against an enemy at this time.


a total honest answer on a defense forum about your capabilities during a war—-expecting it is tantamount to treason—-getting it is ‘treason’ .

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## airomerix

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 620323



I don't think this picture is authentic. There is something about it that is unsetting. 

1) Pictures taken so up close are easily traceable. Hence they cannot be leaked. And those who know, PAF is VERY touchy about leaking F-16 pictures. 
2) The squadron patch on the right shoulder is not of the correct size. 
3) The shoulder rank is 'odd' and grainy.

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## Haris Ali2140

@Trailer23 
Morocco signed a deal of 25 F-16 C/D BLK 70 with a cost of US $3.787 Billion. Unit cost is US $151 million.
Here are the details. However this deal includes a lot of spares and munitions.

Bulgaria also purchased 8 Blk 70 F-16s. The initial price was US $1.26 Billion while each unit costed US $157.5 million. But in statement released by states that 8 F-16s will be sold at US $512 million bringing unit price to US $64 million.

Your opinion???


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## Adam_Khan

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 620323



The Squadron leader rank on the shoulder looks a bit out of place,looks more like a picture of Polish Block 52 as they love taking such pictures.


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## Trailer23

Haris Ali2140 said:


> @Trailer23
> Morocco signed a deal of 25 F-16 C/D BLK 70 with a cost of US $3.787 Billion. Unit cost is US $151 million.
> Here are the details. However this deal includes a lot of spares and munitions.
> 
> Bulgaria also purchased 8 Blk 70 F-16s. The initial price was US $1.26 Billion while each unit costed US $157.5 million. But in statement released by states that 8 F-16s will be sold at US $512 million bringing unit price to US $64 million.
> 
> Your opinion???


Yeah, I read 'bout it too & was curious 'bout it too. Haven't really crunched the numbers or looked deeply into it.

A couple of factors could be the reason why you & I are coming up with those number.

*Morocco:* They are upgrading a number of their old F-16 (too), so there is a possibility why the number is so high.
*Bulgaria:* That amount of USD $64 Million might be fly away conditions without Training, Spares and other goodies like the JHMCS.

It was discussed by all of us months ago. [Let me help the wifey with the kids & i'll get back to you later at nite].

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Haris Ali2140 said:


> @Trailer23
> Morocco signed a deal of 25 F-16 C/D BLK 70 with a cost of US $3.787 Billion. Unit cost is US $151 million.
> Here are the details. However this deal includes a lot of spares and munitions.
> 
> Bulgaria also purchased 8 Blk 70 F-16s. The initial price was US $1.26 Billion while each unit costed US $157.5 million. But in statement released by states that 8 F-16s will be sold at US $512 million bringing unit price to US $64 million.
> 
> Your opinion???


DSCA figures are the total program costs (usually over 5-10 years).

The DoD statement is the amount paid to LM to build the F-16s, not including maintenance, spare parts, etc.

To be safe, I'd use the DSCA figures, you at least get the 'upper-end' of the total cost.

However, keep in mind, that cost wouldn't fall to the procurement budget alone, but is split between procurement and the PAF's annual budget (i.e., maintenance, support, etc).

So, if (hypothetically) the PAF ordered 36 Block-72 for $150 m each, the total cost is $5.4 b over 5 years.

Now, over 5 years, that's an outlay of $1,08 billion per year. Based on the DoD statement, we can estimate that the procurement cost of each F-16 is around $65 m. This is 43% of the annual outlay, so around $464 m per year. This is the amount Pakistan needs to pay the US over a period of 5 years (or $232 per year for 10 years with a loan).

The rest goes into the maintenance/support of those F-16s, which could include new installations at bases for the aircraft, training, spare parts, scheduled overhauls, etc. This is covered in our annual budget.

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## Trailer23

Well @Haris Ali2140 , I think you got your response from a much more credible source in @Bilal Khan (Quwa) .

You can also compare the numbers with of both Morocco & Bulgaria:
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/morocco-f-16-block-72-new-purchase
https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/bulgaria-f-16cd-block-7072-aircraft-support

Keep in mind, that Morocco is going for P&W Engines & they've ordered 04 Spare Engines.
Bulgaria on the other end have gone for GE Engines and have ordered 02 Spare Engines.

You can also compare what all Morocco have gone for compared to Bulgaria.

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## Haris Ali2140

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> DSCA figures are the total program costs (usually over 5-10 years).
> 
> The DoD statement is the amount paid to LM to build the F-16s, not including maintenance, spare parts, etc.
> 
> To be safe, I'd use the DSCA figures, you at least get the 'upper-end' of the total cost.
> 
> However, keep in mind, that cost wouldn't fall to the procurement budget alone, but is split between procurement and the PAF's annual budget (i.e., maintenance, support, etc).
> 
> So, if (hypothetically) the PAF ordered 36 Block-72 for $150 m each, the total cost is $5.4 b over 5 years.
> 
> Now, over 5 years, that's an outlay of $1,08 billion per year. Based on the DoD statement, we can estimate that the procurement cost of each F-16 is around $65 m. This is 43% of the annual outlay, so around $464 m per year. This is the amount Pakistan needs to pay the US over a period of 5 years (or $232 per year for 10 years with a loan).
> 
> The rest goes into the maintenance/support of those F-16s, which could include new installations at bases for the aircraft, training, spare parts, scheduled overhauls, etc. This is covered in our annual budget.


Do you think PAF can afford 36 Blk-70s if we go by your plan???


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Do you think PAF can afford 36 Blk-70s if we go by your plan???


They'd have to make heavy trade-offs from other programs.

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## Haris Ali2140

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> They'd have to make heavy trade-offs from other programs.


Well we do need a deterrence against Rafales. Even though JF-17 Blk-3 will be a capable jet, addition of Blk-70 will make stakes higher for India if they want to pull another round.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Haris Ali2140 said:


> Well we do need a deterrence against Rafales. Even though JF-17 Blk-3 will be a capable jet, addition of Blk-70 will make stakes higher for India if they want to pull another round.


Yes, but we'll always be 1 step behind. If we buy 36 Block-72+ -- and upgrade our 18 Block-52+ and 40-odd MLUs to F-16V -- then the Indians will double or triple their Rafale numbers. Not only that, but a Block-72+ purchase will mean taking money away from Project AZM, so that will get pushed to a much later point.

Sure, not spending on an off-the-shelf fighter could mean taking 1 or 2 steps back, but the $250-300 m that could have gone into imports will go to AZM. It means we run into development problems sooner, and solve them earlier, and we get our very own high-performance fighter quicker.

So, take the 2 steps back, and leapfrog 6 steps up ahead. The cost of raising our internal production capacity for a few more AZM each year will cost less than imports, especially from a macroeconomic standpoint. In fact, the PAF can always induct AZMs every year, just some years will see more jets than others, but it'll continuously modernize and improve, no more 'gap' or 'lost' years.

In the mean time, improve what you already have. So, if you need better strike capabilities, then enhance the JF-17 through new SOWs. If you need more air intercept assets, acquire more JF-17 Block-IIIs. If you need to diversify, then acquire another batch of JF-17s, but with Leonardo Grifo-E and Turkish AAMs. There are always other ways, all we need to do is work with an open-mind.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yes, but we'll always be 1 step behind. If we buy 36 Block-72+ -- and upgrade our 18 Block-52+ and 40-odd MLUs to F-16V


Wish we could do this along with AIM120Ds. PAF maintains Technical and professional superiority not numerical superiority @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Wish we could do this along with AIM120Ds. PAF maintains Technical and professional superiority not numerical superiority @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Sure, but the numbers still matter. There is always a % of aircraft out of service due to maintenance. The side with more aircraft and skilled manpower will sustain more sorties/deployments. We can bruise a nose a few times during limited skirmishes, but we must be prepared for full-scale war.

I believe it's time to work towards *absolute deterrence. 
*
This means maintaining our nuclear/strategic capability _and _building a conventional deterrence capability that can inflict irreparable damage. In other words, we must produce a disproportionate number of modern fighter aircraft, attack helicopters, self-propelled howitzers, submarines, light commando battalions/specialized infantry, etc.

There's no way to get there except to put our industry first, and by several leagues.

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## Shah_Deu

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yes, but we'll always be 1 step behind. If we buy 36 Block-72+ -- and upgrade our 18 Block-52+ and 40-odd MLUs to F-16V -- then the Indians will double or triple their Rafale numbers. Not only that, but a Block-72+ purchase will mean taking money away from Project AZM, so that will get pushed to a much later point.
> 
> Sure, not spending on an off-the-shelf fighter could mean taking 1 or 2 steps back, but the $250-300 m that could have gone into imports will go to AZM. It means we run into development problems sooner, and solve them earlier, and we get our very own high-performance fighter quicker.
> 
> So, take the 2 steps back, and leapfrog 6 steps up ahead. The cost of raising our internal production capacity for a few more AZM each year will cost less than imports, especially from a macroeconomic standpoint. In fact, the PAF can always induct AZMs every year, just some years will see more jets than others, but it'll continuously modernize and improve, no more 'gap' or 'lost' years.
> 
> In the mean time, improve what you already have. So, if you need better strike capabilities, then enhance the JF-17 through new SOWs. If you need more air intercept assets, acquire more JF-17 Block-IIIs. If you need to diversify, then acquire another batch of JF-17s, but with Leonardo Grifo-E and Turkish AAMs. There are always other ways, all we need to do is work with an open-mind.


Excellent reply as always.

I would just like to add one more thing here. Sometimes as the time progresses we tend to forget why we decided to move away from the F-16s and invested in JF-17s at the first place which was to reduce our dependence on the US and F-16s. That logic still holds valid till this day! We made a difficult decision to move away from the F-16s and looking back now, we dont have any regrets, JF-17 is making us proud every passing day. The history is repeating itself again today. Now we have to decide, whether we want to follow the path of JF-17 and go towards AZM or pluck the juicy fruit from someone else's tree and go back to the Square One of the 80s. Had we not moved towards the JF-17, we still would have been begging the US to give us more F-16s and our F-7s and Mirages would have never rested in peace knowing no one is there to replace them!

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Shah_Deu said:


> Excellent reply as always.
> 
> I would just like to add one more thing here. Sometimes as the time progresses we tend to forget why we decided to move away from the F-16s and invested in JF-17s at the first place which was to reduce our dependence on the US and F-16s. That logic still holds valid till this day! We made a difficult decision to move away from the F-16s and looking back now, we dont have any regrets, JF-17 is making us proud every passing day. The history is repeating itself again today. Now we have to decide, whether we want to follow the path of JF-17 and go towards AZM or pluck the juicy fruit from someone else's tree and go back to the Square One of the 80s. Had we not moved towards the JF-17, we still would have been begging the US to give us more F-16s and our F-7s and Mirages would have never rested in peace knowing no one is there to replace them!


Indeed. The F-16s offer that immediate quench in thirst; it makes us think we're moving along by giving us a thing of substance. In fact, at some level, it causes India serious issues too, so it helps. But the F-16 is not the solution to the underlying problem, the imbalance in South Asia. The truth is, if we start thinking in terms of how to solve the regional imbalance, it forces us to take the economy, education, R&D, industrial development, etc all very seriously. 

None of these things are as tangible as nice jets or roads, which is why it's so difficult to 'sell' people on it. It's the same issue with AZM. For a lot of people here, it's this abstract thing, especially when there's no apparent link to it and the FC-31 (a somewhat tangible entity). But AZM is the solution here, it's the thing that's meant to break our reliance on foreign OEMs for fighters _and _start closing the regional imbalance, albeit gradually.

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## Haris Ali2140

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Indeed. The F-16s offer that immediate quench in thirst; it makes us think we're moving along by giving us a thing of substance. In fact, at some level, it causes India serious issues too, so it helps. But the F-16 is not the solution to the underlying problem, the imbalance in South Asia. The truth is, if we start thinking in terms of how to solve the regional imbalance, it forces us to take the economy, education, R&D, industrial development, etc all very seriously.
> 
> None of these things are as tangible as nice jets or roads, which is why it's so difficult to 'sell' people on it. It's the same issue with AZM. For a lot of people here, it's this abstract thing, especially when there's no apparent link to it and the FC-31 (a somewhat tangible entity). But AZM is the solution here, it's the thing that's meant to break our reliance on foreign OEMs for fighters _and _start closing the regional imbalance, albeit gradually.


Sir do you personally think that JF-17 Blk-3 with Pl-15 and aided with AWACS & SOJ will keep Indians at bay till AZM arrives???


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

The Paf needs to name a couple of new sqdrns---Paf Follies---Paf Blunders---.

Amongst the many a blunders---the one after 9/11 was extremely severe when the Paf did not push the US for F16's after joining the WOT and just took the american excuses for no F16's---.

I would have loved to see the reaction of the PAF's air chief if when his son and daughter were refused the US visa for education and then later a green card and would love to see how hard he would have fought to get it---.

There were a multiple parallels running at that time---so criss crossing those lines is not intelligent---. The only fearful factor was "running against time"---.

The JF17 program had its own value---till the J10 A became available---that was the time to dump it and join the J10 program---. That is one line of the parallel running against time---. The Israelis did it successfully---swallowed their pride & ego---dumped the levi and rode on the back of the american F16's---and never had to look back since then.

The F16's should have been pursued harder in 2002 and an immediate deal made---if there was an absolute no from the US---then the pursuing deal for the M2K's or the Rafales made---. Those two are the second and third lines of the paralell---running against time.

The problem here is that---from the US---there was not a HARD NO on the F16---it was only that the PAF had not pushed harder---.

If Pres Bush could declare a war on a nation---then he could find ways to have had the sanctions removed---. That was another parallel line running at that time---against time.

For the M2k's or the Rafale---the Paf failed miserably to assess the most potent 4.5 gen aircraft in the industry and declared it sub par---. Paf fabricated a concrete block and put it in front of that line---.

The real sabotage by the Paf on the integrity & sovereignty of Pakistan occurred when the Paf air chief decided and donated the 5 billion dollar funds to earthquake relief---. That was another concrete block placed in front of that line---.

The yemen crisis was the final straw---for not taking advantage of it---pakistan has fallen to its knees---. An issue that would have resulted in the economic salvation of the country has resulted in doom and destruction---. 

The yemen crisis salvation was like a broad brush that would have painted over all those parallel lines---bad judgements---bad leaders---weak vision less generals---illiterate population---thoughtless considerations---make the nations pay a heavy price---.

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## Shah_Deu

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Indeed. The F-16s offer that immediate quench in thirst; it makes us think we're moving along by giving us a thing of substance. In fact, at some level, it causes India serious issues too, so it helps. But the F-16 is not the solution to the underlying problem, the imbalance in South Asia. The truth is, if we start thinking in terms of how to solve the regional imbalance, it forces us to take the economy, education, R&D, industrial development, etc all very seriously.
> 
> None of these things are as tangible as nice jets or roads, which is why it's so difficult to 'sell' people on it. It's the same issue with AZM. For a lot of people here, it's this abstract thing, especially when there's no apparent link to it and the FC-31 (a somewhat tangible entity). But AZM is the solution here, it's the thing that's meant to break our reliance on foreign OEMs for fighters _and _start closing the regional imbalance, albeit gradually.


I certainly believe, if the Indian planners envy of something in our arsenal, *now *its for sure not the F-16s which might have been the case in the past. Yes we shot down their jets using AMRAAM equipped F-16s, the Meteors would take this advantage away not that far in future and we surely arent going to get the 120Ds due to obvious reasons, and hence this edge will be lost. The thing that worries their military planners now is how fast our JF-17 has matured and the huge numbers of such jets replacing our legacy fighters quickly and that too with a exponential leap in capabilties.

Secondly the price, the F-16 comes at especially after the development of JF-17 block 3 certainly doesnt justify the difference in the capabilties between the two. Not taking anything away, the *F-16 still remains a remains a superior fighting machine than the JF-17*, but for how long? For one, F-16 has never been able to provide us the so-called real Multirole capabilties that the JF-17 now offers, air to sea being the one, which had been denied to us for so long! Now we have to ask ourselves, are the $5.7 billion dollars worth of 36 F-16s better than the 100 extra JF-17s block 3s that could be inducted at a fraction of that price? Numbers again have their own quality!

Lastly, our dependence on F-16s in our Arsenal remains our weakness which stands ripe to be exploited by India sooner or later. The evolving strategic situation in the region means, the US would always be looking at us the same way in the foreseeable future. Hence more the F-16s, more the 'leverage' Indians would be having 10 years from now in their dealings with the US and more vulnerable we would be at that point of time!

F-16 is an excellent machine and an automatic choice had we been a strong economy. With low on finances, even if we buy it, we would never be able to field it in numbers. _IMHO,_ in the right hands, 3 Jf-17 Block 3s would be much more effective in an aerial combat than a single F-16 Block 70.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> DSCA figures are the total program costs (usually over 5-10 years).
> 
> The DoD statement is the amount paid to LM to build the F-16s, not including maintenance, spare parts, etc.
> 
> To be safe, I'd use the DSCA figures, you at least get the 'upper-end' of the total cost.
> 
> However, keep in mind, that cost wouldn't fall to the procurement budget alone, but is split between procurement and the PAF's annual budget (i.e., maintenance, support, etc).
> 
> So, if (hypothetically) the PAF ordered 36 Block-72 for $150 m each, the total cost is $5.4 b over 5 years.
> 
> Now, over 5 years, that's an outlay of $1,08 billion per year. Based on the DoD statement, we can estimate that the procurement cost of each F-16 is around $65 m. This is 43% of the annual outlay, so around $464 m per year. This is the amount Pakistan needs to pay the US over a period of 5 years (or $232 per year for 10 years with a loan).
> 
> The rest goes into the maintenance/support of those F-16s, which could include new installations at bases for the aircraft, training, spare parts, scheduled overhauls, etc. This is covered in our annual budget.


Sir,
No doubt PAF loves the F-16's like with the Mirrage but we know that when PAF bought the F-16's they were thinking of going on the same lines they had done in the past by procuring more Mirrage III and V's from those countries that were decommissioning them. PAF planners had hoped that 40 years down the line USA would have removed the F-16 from their main forces and would have replaced them but they had never thought that USA will continue to upgrade and continue to procure and use them for another 20-30 years as drones along with the F-22 and F-35's. 

Moreover PAF was also surprised to see how the US Navy destroyed the F-14's so that Iran could not get any thing. This is why PAF had to rethink on how can Pakistan could circumvent and procure more F-16's, the same old files were brought up again and suggestions were asked where everyone decided that PAF still can procure those F-16's that are manufactured in Europe and even procure those from Jordan and other Muslim countries. In reality when PAF wanted to procure some of the Jordanian F-16 they were refused by USA rather those F-16 were bought by private owner in USA and upgraded. Today they are for sale on e-bay but not to Pakistan. 

Its about time PAF must decide what our priorities are and how to work around with the F-16's we have in the time of need incase it moves not as planned. Today PAF is in dire need of LIFT platforms that can also be converted into light attack aircraft so that the main fighters can be free for more engagements. 

The amount for procuring 35 F16blk70/72 can buy around 150-200 KAI-T-50 Golden Eagle/ FA-50 which uses the same weapons that are on F-16. This will cost around 40-50 mil USD similar to what JF-17blk3 costs.

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## Haris Ali2140

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> No doubt PAF loves the F-16's like with the Mirrage but we know that when PAF bought the F-16's they were thinking of going on the same lines they had done in the past by procuring more Mirrage III and V's from those countries that were decommissioning them. PAF planners had hoped that 40 years down the line USA would have removed the F-16 from their main forces and would have replaced them but they had never thought that USA will continue to upgrade and continue to procure and use them for another 20-30 years as drones along with the F-22 and F-35's.
> 
> Moreover PAF was also surprised to see how the US Navy destroyed the F-14's so that Iran could not get any thing. This is why PAF had to rethink on how can Pakistan could circumvent and procure more F-16's, the same old files were brought up again and suggestions were asked where everyone decided that PAF still can procure those F-16's that are manufactured in Europe and even procure those from Jordan and other Muslim countries. In reality when PAF wanted to procure some of the Jordanian F-16 they were refused by USA rather those F-16 were bought by private owner in USA and upgraded. Today they are for sale on e-bay but not to Pakistan.
> 
> Its about time PAF must decide what our priorities are and how to work around with the F-16's we have in the time of need incase it moves not as planned. Today PAF is in dire need of LIFT platforms that can also be converted into light attack aircraft so that the main fighters can be free for more engagements.
> 
> The amount for procuring 35 F16blk70/72 can buy around 150-200 KAI-T-50 Golden Eagle/ FA-50 which uses the same weapons that are on F-16. This will cost around 40-50 mil USD similar to what JF-17blk3 costs.



The question is will Blk-3 be enough to prevent Indians from doing another 26 after Rafales arrive???

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> No doubt PAF loves the F-16's like with the Mirrage but we know that when PAF bought the F-16's they were thinking of going on the same lines they had done in the past by procuring more Mirrage III and V's from those countries that were decommissioning them. PAF planners had hoped that 40 years down the line USA would have removed the F-16 from their main forces and would have replaced them but they had never thought that USA will continue to upgrade and continue to procure and use them for another 20-30 years as drones along with the F-22 and F-35's.
> 
> Moreover PAF was also surprised to see how the US Navy destroyed the F-14's so that Iran could not get any thing. This is why PAF had to rethink on how can Pakistan could circumvent and procure more F-16's, the same old files were brought up again and suggestions were asked where everyone decided that PAF still can procure those F-16's that are manufactured in Europe and even procure those from Jordan and other Muslim countries. In reality when PAF wanted to procure some of the Jordanian F-16 they were refused by USA rather those F-16 were bought by private owner in USA and upgraded. Today they are for sale on e-bay but not to Pakistan.
> 
> Its about time PAF must decide what our priorities are and how to work around with the F-16's we have in the time of need incase it moves not as planned. Today PAF is in dire need of LIFT platforms that can also be converted into light attack aircraft so that the main fighters can be free for more engagements.
> 
> The amount for procuring 35 F16blk70/72 can buy around 150-200 KAI-T-50 Golden Eagle/ FA-50 which uses the same weapons that are on F-16. This will cost around 40-50 mil USD similar to what JF-17blk3 costs.


If the PAF opts for a LIFT, it will likely be the L-15B with Ukrainian AI-322F turbofan engines. It technically is the only design that meets the PAF's original ASR for a LIFT, i.e., afterburning engines with an air-intercept radar.

The others (e.g., M346 and L-159) might have the electronics, but not the actual engine the PAF was looking for. In 2019, the PAF CAS did say the LIFT 'doesn't need an afterburning engine,' but what I heard from an instructor pilot at IDEAS 2018, the actual need is for a LIFT with an afterburning engine. Otherwise, it doesn't add much to K-8.

But I don't think the LIFT category would add to the PAF fighter fleet. The most sensible solution for building out the fighter inventory is with the JF-17. Others, such as L-15B or even FA-50, are simply not cost-effective.

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## HRK

Haris Ali2140 said:


> The question is will Blk-3 be enough to prevent Indians from doing another 26 after Rafales arrive???


a wrong question blk-III or no blk-III what India did in Feb last year was a political need, if and when fascist circles of India may find themselves in need they may perform another stunt according their need ....

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Shah_Deu said:


> I certainly believe, if the Indian planners envy of something in our arsenal, *now *its for sure not the F-16s which might have been the case in the past. Yes we shot down their jets using AMRAAM equipped F-16s, the Meteors would take this advantage away not that far in future and we surely arent going to get the 120Ds due to obvious reasons, and hence this edge will be lost. The thing that worries their military planners now is how fast our JF-17 has matured and the huge numbers of such jets replacing our legacy fighters quickly and that too with a exponential leap in capabilties.
> 
> Secondly the price, the F-16 comes at especially after the development of JF-17 block 3 certainly doesnt justify the difference in the capabilties between the two. Not taking anything away, the *F-16 still remains a remains a superior fighting machine than the JF-17*, but for how long? For one, F-16 has never been able to provide us the so-called real Multirole capabilties that the JF-17 now offers, air to sea being the one, which had been denied to us for so long! Now we have to ask ourselves, are the $5.7 billion dollars worth of 36 F-16s better than the 100 extra JF-17s block 3s that could be inducted at a fraction of that price? Numbers again have their own quality!
> 
> Lastly, our dependence on F-16s in our Arsenal remains our weakness which stands ripe to be exploited by India sooner or later. The evolving strategic situation in the region means, the US would always be looking at us the same way in the foreseeable future. Hence more the F-16s, more the 'leverage' Indians would be having 10 years from now in their dealings with the US and more vulnerable we would be at that point of time!
> 
> F-16 is an excellent machine and an automatic choice had we been a strong economy. With low on finances, even if we buy it, we would never be able to field it in numbers. _IMHO,_ in the right hands, 3 Jf-17 Block 3s would be much more effective in an aerial combat than a single F-16 Block 70.


I look at it slightly differently. The asymmetric response in Swift Retort -- i.e., outnumbering the Indians with more jets and using EW/ECM/AEW&C -- worked. You can obviously improve that at a micro-level by improving your own communication links, acquiring newer/better EW/ECM (e.g., GaN-based), etc. But what about the macro-level?

To replicate Swift Retorts frequently, and at scale (by doing the same thing simultaneously across many different areas), takes _a lot _of resources. Simply three of those operations could use up to 1/3 of our available fighters -- that isn't sustainable. Not only that, but F-16 and Mirage use is finite. If -- God forbid -- we lose one of either, it's gone permanently, we can't replace it (which is why I'd rather the PAF remove Block-52/MLUs from demonstration flights). 

So, what's the solution here? It's the JF-17.

You need enough Block-IIIs and JF-17Bs. The Block-IIIs (with their AESA radars and PL-15) can offer air-to-air, while the JF-17Bs can (with the right munitions) take the lead on strike and EW/ECM. Not only that, but they can operate on the same TDL. Couple that with ground-based LACM launchers, GL-SDB-type systems, etc.

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## Trailer23

Took me a while, but I think this will give a clearer picture in the difference of price. The price of the jet alone (without Engine) may be the same, but when you start arming it with your choice of Engine, EW, Missiles (in number) etc. - it changes everything. Even choice of Helmets is different.





*Deal includes...*

*Morocco:* Communications equipment; Spares and repair parts; support equipment; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation; support and test equipment, simulators; integration and test; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistical support services; and other related elements of logistics and program support.

*Bulgaria:* Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program (ECISAP) support; Cartridge Actuated and Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD) support; Common Munitions Bit-test Reprogramming Equipment (CMBRE) support with Computer Test Set Adapter Group; communications equipment; software delivery and support; facilities and construction support; spares and repair/replace parts; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation; containers; munition support and test equipment; aircraft and munition integration and test support; studies and surveys; U.S. Government and contractor technical, engineering and logistical support services; and other related elements of logistics and program support.

@Haris Ali2140 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @mingle @airomerix @Knuckles @Path-Finder

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## Path-Finder

Trailer23 said:


> Took me a while, but I think this will give a clearer picture in the difference of price. The price of the jet alone (without Engine) may be the same, but when you start arming it with your choice of Engine, EW, Missiles (in number) etc. - it changes everything. Even choice of Helmets is different.
> 
> View attachment 620456​
> *Deal includes...*
> 
> *Morocco:* Communications equipment; Spares and repair parts; support equipment; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation; support and test equipment, simulators; integration and test; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistical support services; and other related elements of logistics and program support.
> 
> *Bulgaria:* Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program (ECISAP) support; Cartridge Actuated and Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD) support; Common Munitions Bit-test Reprogramming Equipment (CMBRE) support with Computer Test Set Adapter Group; communications equipment; software delivery and support; facilities and construction support; spares and repair/replace parts; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation; containers; munition support and test equipment; aircraft and munition integration and test support; studies and surveys; U.S. Government and contractor technical, engineering and logistical support services; and other related elements of logistics and program support.
> 
> @Haris Ali2140 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @mingle @airomerix @Knuckles @Path-Finder


good god that is not cheap!

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Path-Finder said:


> good god that is not cheap!


Yup...but here's the kicker. The F-16 Blk-70/72 and Gripen E/F are the lowest-cost Western options ($130-150 m per plane all-in), the Typhoon and Rafale will take you $250 m-plus per plane easy. We should keep that in mind when we ask, "wHy dOn'T pAf BuI nEw FiGhTeR!?!?"

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## gangsta_rap

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> "wHy dOn'T pAf BuI nEw FiGhTeR!?!?"


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## Raider 21

Path-Finder said:


> good god that is not cheap!


Quality stuff never really is

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## Path-Finder

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yup...but here's the kicker. The F-16 Blk-70/72 and Gripen E/F are the lowest-cost Western options ($130-150 m per plane all-in), the Typhoon and Rafale will take you $250 m-plus per plane easy. We should keep that in mind when we ask, "wHy dOn'T pAf BuI nEw FiGhTeR!?!?"


message for the quom is; unfortunately money doesn't grow on trees. 



Knuckles said:


> Quality stuff never really is


well there is always khiali pilau in the meantime.

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If the PAF opts for a LIFT, it will likely be the L-15B with Ukrainian AI-322F turbofan engines. It technically is the only design that meets the PAF's original ASR for a LIFT, i.e., afterburning engines with an air-intercept radar.
> 
> The others (e.g., M346 and L-159) might have the electronics, but not the actual engine the PAF was looking for. In 2019, the PAF CAS did say the LIFT 'doesn't need an afterburning engine,' but what I heard from an instructor pilot at IDEAS 2018, the actual need is for a LIFT with an afterburning engine. Otherwise, it doesn't add much to K-8.
> 
> But I don't think the LIFT category would add to the PAF fighter fleet. The most sensible solution for building out the fighter inventory is with the JF-17. Others, such as L-15B or even FA-50, are simply not cost-effective.


Sir, 
It is true that all modern air forces are moving towards two types of training aircraft i.e Basic and advance fighter training. Unfortunately in PAF still the old system of have four types of training solutions apply.
How flight training is evolving now is basic and intermediate training aircraft have become one from where they move on to advance trainer aircraft. 

If we compare PAF's existing flight training then we see basic trainer (mushaq / C-172) followed by T-37 Tweet followed by K-8. Then the fighter conversion starts Mirrage and the F7. 
Other Air Forces start off with a PC-7 kind of an aircraft and move on to LIFT platform from where they directly move on to fighter conversion F-16 or in future F-35. 
Theses days JF-17 simulator is helping train most of the pilots as they have improved over the years. If i remember correctly the B-707 simulator was fixed simulator and artificial movement was created but when B-777 simulator came it was 4 axis. These days 6 axis simulators are available and at fraction of the cost, infact some also have various other aircraft modules as long as the engines remain the same. i.e B-737-800 /A-320 / A220 can be done on the same simulator. 

Engine has always been a problem area for PAF. TAI are trying to manufacture a new fighter aircraft that will be used for training also but they intend to use the same engine that powers the F-16's hence they will again be sanctioned. The cost of production of JF-17 can be reduced further if PAF increases the numbers.

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## Raider 21

ACE OF THE AIR said:


> Sir,
> It is true that all modern air forces are moving towards two types of training aircraft i.e Basic and advance fighter training. Unfortunately in PAF still the old system of have four types of training solutions apply.
> How flight training is evolving now is basic and intermediate training aircraft have become one from where they move on to advance trainer aircraft.
> 
> If we compare PAF's existing flight training then we see basic trainer (mushaq / C-172) followed by T-37 Tweet followed by K-8. Then the fighter conversion starts Mirrage and the F7.
> Other Air Forces start off with a PC-7 kind of an aircraft and move on to LIFT platform from where they directly move on to fighter conversion F-16 or in future F-35.
> Theses days JF-17 simulator is helping train most of the pilots as they have improved over the years. If i remember correctly the B-707 simulator was fixed simulator and artificial movement was created but when B-777 simulator came it was 4 axis. These days 6 axis simulators are available and at fraction of the cost, infact some also have various other aircraft modules as long as the engines remain the same. i.e B-737-800 /A-320 / A220 can be done on the same simulator.
> 
> Engine has always been a problem area for PAF. TAI are trying to manufacture a new fighter aircraft that will be used for training also but they intend to use the same engine that powers the F-16's hence they will again be sanctioned. The cost of production of JF-17 can be reduced further if PAF increases the numbers.


You can even switch the engine config for the simulators other than a few CB changes. That's how A320 CEO/NEO for example is done.

Thunder Sims are decent but could be way better. The Sim is more of a mission technical trainer to learn the systems of the aircraft and less of a feel of the aircraft's performance.

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## Talon

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 620323


Not PAF viper,Photoshopped picture



airomerix said:


> I don't think this picture is authentic. There is something about it that is unsetting.
> 
> 1) Pictures taken so up close are easily traceable. Hence they cannot be leaked. And those who know, PAF is VERY touchy about leaking F-16 pictures.
> 2) The squadron patch on the right shoulder is not of the correct size.
> 3) The shoulder rank is 'odd' and grainy.


Yep patch isnt of correct size and its actually a chest patch and not an arm one.

Clearly rank insignia is looking much larger than the patch which is totally opposite to the actual sizes.



Trailer23 said:


> You know @Knuckles , sometimes I have query 'bout stuff that i'm not aware of, but only deem fit to ask Questions from those whom I know will give a me an accurate and *straight forward response* like yourself, @airomerix , @Hodor , @Windjammer among others.
> 
> Hope you understand where this post is going.


@Knuckles is much reliable than most of the users here including me.

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## Blacklight

Trailer23 said:


> Took me a while, but I think this will give a clearer picture in the difference of price. The price of the jet alone (without Engine) may be the same, but when you start arming it with your choice of Engine, EW, Missiles (in number) etc. - it changes everything. Even choice of Helmets is different.
> 
> View attachment 620456​
> *Deal includes...*
> 
> *Morocco:* Communications equipment; Spares and repair parts; support equipment; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation; support and test equipment, simulators; integration and test; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistical support services; and other related elements of logistics and program support.
> 
> *Bulgaria:* Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program (ECISAP) support; Cartridge Actuated and Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD) support; Common Munitions Bit-test Reprogramming Equipment (CMBRE) support with Computer Test Set Adapter Group; communications equipment; software delivery and support; facilities and construction support; spares and repair/replace parts; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation; containers; munition support and test equipment; aircraft and munition integration and test support; studies and surveys; U.S. Government and contractor technical, engineering and logistical support services; and other related elements of logistics and program support.
> 
> @Haris Ali2140 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @mingle @airomerix @Knuckles @Path-Finder


*Lockheed Martin contracted to deliver F-16s to Bulgaria*
02 April 2020

Lockheed Martin has been awarded USD512 million to deliver eight F-16V Block 70 Fighting Falcon combat aircraft to Bulgaria.

The Foreign Military Sales (FMS) contract, announced by the US Department of Defense (DoD) on 2 April, includes USD4.2 million of unspecified pre-priced options, and will run through to 31 January 2027.

The award, which is understood not to include engines, is part of a total F-16V procurement and support package for Bulgaria that will be valued at approximately USD1.3 billion. As the aircraft are listed as being Block 70 rather than Block 70/72, they will be single-seaters. As such, pilot training will likely take place on US Air Force or other NATO twin-seat aircraft.

With the first F-16V set to enter service in 2023, the Bulgarian Air Force (BuAF) will be in a position to retire its ageing MiG-29 ‘Fulcrum’ fighters, only about four of which are believed to still be serviceable.

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## Trailer23

Blacklight said:


> *Lockheed Martin contracted to deliver F-16s to Bulgaria*
> 02 April 2020
> 
> Lockheed Martin has been awarded USD512 million to deliver eight F-16V Block 70 Fighting Falcon combat aircraft to Bulgaria.
> 
> The Foreign Military Sales (FMS) contract, announced by the US Department of Defense (DoD) on 2 April, includes USD4.2 million of unspecified pre-priced options, and will run through to 31 January 2027.
> 
> The award, which is understood not to include engines, is part of a total F-16V procurement and support package for Bulgaria that will be valued at approximately USD1.3 billion. As the aircraft are listed as being Block 70 rather than Block 70/72, they will be single-seaters. As such, pilot training will likely take place on US Air Force or other NATO twin-seat aircraft.
> 
> With the first F-16V set to enter service in 2023, the Bulgarian Air Force (BuAF) will be in a position to retire its ageing MiG-29 ‘Fulcrum’ fighters, only about four of which are believed to still be serviceable.


Right, so the amount and options I mentioned are the Official Figures and Numbers by the Defense Security Corporation Agency and were quoted last year in the Month of June.

Figures may vary as the Government of Bulgaria may have sought to change or alter the offer in some manner.

https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/bulgaria-f-16cd-block-7072-aircraft-support


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## mshan44



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## airomerix

Trailer23 said:


> Took me a while, but I think this will give a clearer picture in the difference of price. The price of the jet alone (without Engine) may be the same, but when you start arming it with your choice of Engine, EW, Missiles (in number) etc. - it changes everything. Even choice of Helmets is different.
> 
> View attachment 620456​
> *Deal includes...*
> 
> *Morocco:* Communications equipment; Spares and repair parts; support equipment; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation; support and test equipment, simulators; integration and test; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistical support services; and other related elements of logistics and program support.
> 
> *Bulgaria:* Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program (ECISAP) support; Cartridge Actuated and Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD) support; Common Munitions Bit-test Reprogramming Equipment (CMBRE) support with Computer Test Set Adapter Group; communications equipment; software delivery and support; facilities and construction support; spares and repair/replace parts; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation; containers; munition support and test equipment; aircraft and munition integration and test support; studies and surveys; U.S. Government and contractor technical, engineering and logistical support services; and other related elements of logistics and program support.
> 
> @Haris Ali2140 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @mingle @airomerix @Knuckles @Path-Finder



Translates into $150M for Morocco and $200M for Bulgaria. Crazy.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Path-Finder said:


> good god that is not cheap!





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yup...but here's the kicker. The F-16 Blk-70/72 and Gripen E/F are the lowest-cost Western options ($130-150 m per plane all-in), the Typhoon and Rafale will take you $250 m-plus per plane easy. We should keep that in mind when we ask, "wHy dOn'T pAf BuI nEw FiGhTeR!?!?"


Cheaper in the long term. Less costly maintainance than Chinese or Russian

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## Haris Ali2140

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 620642
> View attachment 620642
> View attachment 620643


@Knuckles @Hodor @airomerix 
Are all the tanks including CFTs have fuel in them in the above pictures???


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## mingle

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Cheaper in the long term. Less costly maintainance than Chinese or Russian


Plus we have trained workforce along Air crew all we need to add the numbers very simple still if we get 36 blk 72 around $$ 3 billion along used airframes and theior upgrade around total 5 billion we could have have around 130 upgrade new and old Viper fleet realy bang of buck for next 35-40yrs

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## Talon

Haris Ali2140 said:


> @Knuckles @Hodor @airomerix
> Are all the tanks including CFTs have fuel in them in the above pictures???


How can anyone know by looking at a picture?

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## Haris Ali2140

Hodor said:


> How can anyone know by looking at a picture?


I am just asking. If fuel tanks mounted means they will be used.


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## Raider 21

Haris Ali2140 said:


> @Knuckles @Hodor @airomerix
> Are all the tanks including CFTs have fuel in them in the above pictures???


Yes they normally do, and right after landing the tanks are fully fueled up, including CFTs to prevent rust. Rare cases would have it with less fuel. A good example are Vipers for demos, they are normally half full. I'm not sure what PAF does in that case.

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## Haris Ali2140

Knuckles said:


> Yes they normally do, and right after landing the tanks are fully fueled up, including CFTs to prevent rust. Rare cases would have it with less fuel. A good example are Vipers for demos, they are normally half full. I'm not sure what PAF does in that case.


So how long they remain in air during CAP when all the tanks and CFTs are full with fuel???

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## MastanKhan

Has this video been posted here---an old one

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## ACE OF THE AIR

Haris Ali2140 said:


> I am just asking. If fuel tanks mounted means they will be used.


Hi,
Fuel tanks are kept full when on ground in general so that moisture can not accumulate over time and block fuel from being supplied to the engines.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/...0bd111dc51132a860c99f59faa7637f8&action=click


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

In our scenario---I would say that all the aircraft that are ready for battle will be topped off all the time---. I have not seen a pilot roll off his aircraft to the fuel pump to top it off and then take off---


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## airomerix

Haris Ali2140 said:


> So how long they remain in air during CAP when all the tanks and CFTs are full with fuel???



They carry a maximum of 450Gl of fuel which increases the range up to 45% for a CAP/20% for low level (lets say deep interdiction)

The thing about CFT's is that as opposed to a common view, it compromises the 9G ability of the F-16. The manual states that the F-16 is a 9G aircraft as long as it is 27000lb in weight, which is 100% internal fuel plus two sidewinders. Add a 500lb/300gl centreline tank, 2000lb CFT's, 5000lb of extra fuel (370 tanks), we have a 34,500lb aircraft with a g limit of 7. Good enough for an A2G mission one can argue. 

It's all about the drag, weight and mission profile which governs the overall range of the aircraft.

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## Talon

Haris Ali2140 said:


> I am just asking. If fuel tanks mounted means they will be used.


Then you have given the answer yourself.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> In our scenario---I would say that all the aircraft that are ready for battle will be topped off all the time---. I have not seen a pilot roll off his aircraft to the fuel pump to top it off and then take off---


Not all the aircrafts,just those assigned to ADA.

All others are made ready before the routine missions.

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## Talon

Shaheens of Mushaf..

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## ali_raza

MastanKhan said:


> Hi
> 
> if you suggested it to the PAF they will say yes we have tested it and it does not meet our standard we do not think it’s worth it and it does not bring anything new to the table


lol that freaking table i want to break that table 
nothing new has ever came to that table since first f16 landed in pakistan

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## Bossman

ali_raza said:


> lol that freaking table i want to break that table
> nothing new has ever came to that table since first f16 landed in pakistan


Why are you hyperventilating?


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## ali_raza

Bossman said:


> Why are you hyperventilating?


no m not but i m just confirming wht op said about table thing it was on a lighter note relax

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## Trailer23

*Surah An-Najm [53:39]*​





*No. 9 Squadron (Griffins).*​

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## Pakistani Fighter

Trailer23 said:


> *Surah An-Najm [53:39]*​
> View attachment 621289
> 
> *No. 9 Squadron (Griffins).*​


Old pic. Could see Shaheed Noman there

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## Trailer23

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Old pic. Could see Shaheed Noman there


Yep, 2nd on the right.

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## Blacklight

Hodor said:


> Then you have given the answer yourself.
> 
> 
> Not all the aircrafts,just those assigned to *ADA.*
> 
> All others are made ready before the routine missions.



ADA = QRA ?


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## Invicta

Blacklight said:


> ADA = QRA ?



Yes you are right they are the same thing.

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## Talon

Blacklight said:


> ADA = QRA ?





Invicta said:


> Yes you are right they are the same thing.


Meaning is same but I don't think PAF uses this term.Also don't confuse it with QRF/URF which is a response force to any attack on air base from ground say a terrorist attack.

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## sneakerspark

Normally flight schedules are released almost a week prior to the actual mission of entire sqdn by FLT CMDR. Same goes to the airmen and flight engineers. They prep the available flight worthy aircrafts accordingly.


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## airomerix

sneakerspark said:


> Normally flight schedules are released almost a week prior to the actual mission of entire sqdn by FLT CMDR. Same goes to the airmen and flight engineers. They prep the available flight worthy aircrafts accordingly.



This is not true. 

Also, this is not possible because;

1) A week is too long of a time which means a greater risk of a leak. Opsec reasons. 
2) PAF does not have the flight management systems in place for scheduling unlike TuAF.

Flight schedules for combat missions (CAPS) are released on a daily basis. Even training schedules are usually released on a daily basis unless there is a special provision. 

For the same reason, engineers are on their toes as well on a daily basis.

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## airomerix

F-16C/D Block 52+ inflight.

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## Viper27

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Old pic. Could see Shaheed Noman there



Noman's friend Saud Ghulam Nabi also there in the same line.


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## Talon

airomerix said:


> This is not true.
> 
> Also, this is not possible because;
> 
> 1) A week is too long of a time which means a greater risk of a leak. Opsec reasons.
> 2) PAF does not have the flight management systems in place for scheduling unlike TuAF.
> 
> Flight schedules for combat missions (CAPS) are released on a daily basis. Even training schedules are usually released on a daily basis unless there is a special provision.
> 
> For the same reason, engineers are on their toes as well on a daily basis.


As per my knowledge be it a training mission or ADA duty, schedule is usually posted a night before, sometimes changes are made right before the mission or sometimes there are surprise missions as well..but yeah posting schedule a week earlier,not gonna happen.

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## mshan44



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## mshan44



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## mshan44



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## WiderMan

Bravo Mike

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## FuturePAF

Honest question. What would it take to make the JF-17 as good a dog fighter, aerodynamically, as the F-16?

Is it just a matter of the low thrust to weight ratio of the JF-17 or is it something with the design? The JF-17 is expected to form the backbone of the PAF and if the plane goes to the merge with Indian deltas like the Mirage or Rafale it should be able to hold its own.

hopefully with the more advanced versions of the RD-93 and the new WS-13E engine we will be able to get the thrust the design needs.


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## Haris Ali2140

FuturePAF said:


> Honest question. What would it take to make the JF-17 as good a dog fighter, aerodynamically, as the F-16?
> 
> Is it just a matter of the low thrust to weight ratio of the JF-17 or is it something with the design? The JF-17 is expected to form the backbone of the PAF and if the plane goes to the merge with Indian deltas like the Mirage or Rafale it should be able to hold its own.



It has to be good in technology not in dogfighting. Good AESA radar + EW package + Long range BVR will keep Rafale/SU-30 at edge.

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## xbat

one of the most important spec is *RANGE* ! jf 17 can not be a F16 , never .


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## Blacklight

Haris Ali2140 said:


> It has to be good in technology not in dogfighting. Good AESA radar + EW package + Long range BVR will keep Rafale/SU-30 at edge.


Excellent points!

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

FuturePAF said:


> Honest question. What would it take to make the JF-17 as good a dog fighter, aerodynamically, as the F-16?
> 
> Is it just a matter of the low thrust to weight ratio of the JF-17 or is it something with the design? The JF-17 is expected to form the backbone of the PAF and if the plane goes to the merge with Indian deltas like the Mirage or Rafale it should be able to hold its own.
> 
> hopefully with the more advanced versions of the RD-93 and the new WS-13E engine we will be able to get the thrust the design needs.


I think it has to do with the design of the JF-17 itself. When CAC designed it, it wasn't told to work on a complex, relaxed stability design like the F-16. Rather, it went with a simpler design with just enough space for a modern multi-mode radar and baseline defensive aid suite (RWR, MAWS, etc). This is what the PAF wanted from the Sabre-II program in the late 1980s -- i.e., a pretty good replacement to the F-6s that would complement the F-16s.

In other words, the PAF wanted to revive the F-20 Tigershark, but through the MiG-21/F-7 airframe instead of the F-5. It's no coincidence that Grumman was brought into the project, and no surprise that it proposed the GE F404, APG-66 and APG-67, etc for the Sabre II. 

If the PAF had written-off the F-16s in the late 1980s, it would have likely told CAC to work on a more complex relaxed stability design. Heck, it would have likely joined the J-10 as a partner. However, the PAF never actually wrote-off the F-16 (or a Western import) in the 1980s, 1990s or 2000s.

This is why Project AZM is such a huge departure. The current ASR is for a high-performance fighter (twin-engine, supercruising, etc), so the PAF likely wrote-off F-16s and any high-end import.

The PAF is also playing coy about continued JF-17 development, so that could be a sign of it wanting to move fully to AZM and a single, high-jet end through the 2030s and 2040s. The JF-17s will obviously keep flying through then, but it's possible they'll all be gone in favour of one high-end fighter type (and likely, lots of drones).

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## StormBreaker

Haris Ali2140 said:


> It has to be good in technology not in dogfighting. Good AESA radar + EW package + Long range BVR will keep Rafale/SU-30 at edge.


They must atleast keep in mind that the Chinese VLRAAM should be compatible with thunders. @LKJ86 Do you think China will sell the 2 VLRAAM they are developing ? Does MTCR come into play here ? If the range is 400+ ?

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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> PAF likely wrote-off F-16s






StormBreaker said:


> They must atleast keep in mind that the Chinese VLRAAM should be compatible with thunders. @LKJ86 Do you think China will sell the 2 VLRAAM they are developing ? Does MTCR come into play here ? If the range is 400+ ?


Not coming into Pakistan for atleast 4 years


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## StormBreaker

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Not coming into Pakistan for atleast 4 years


Whenever


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## The Raven

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In other words, the PAF wanted to revive the F-20 Tigershark, but through the MiG-21/F-7 airframe instead of the F-5. It's no coincidence that Grumman was brought into the project, and no surprise that it proposed the GE F404, APG-66 and APG-67, etc for the Sabre II.



The JF-17 isn't based on the Mig-21/F-7 lineage. It's based on the Mig-33 concept. Mig helped with redesigning the lateral intakes, rather than the Viper like ventral intake of the original Mig-33 concept. The original concept also relied heavily on LERX for pitch manoeuvrability, which were later incorporated from the fourth ptototype.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The Raven said:


> The JF-17 isn't based on the Mig-21/F-7 lineage. It's based on the Mig-33 concept. Mig helped with redesigning the lateral intakes, rather than the Viper like ventral intake of the original Mig-33 concept. The original concept also relied heavily on LERX for pitch manoeuvrability, which were later incorporated from the fourth ptototype.


I didn't say it was based on the MiG-21 or F-7. I said the PAF started its whole fighter project by first looking at a major F-7/MiG-21 upgrade (Sabre II). This fell through, but CAC kept working on its own clean-sheet design, but this new design (FC-1/Super-7) was still within the confines of what the PAF wanted at that time.

The Block-III is really stretching what the frozen design (PT-4) is capable of, so anything more would mean re-opening the design. However, jury's out on whether the PAF is interested in it -- at least internally, it's focusing on AZM (for now). I do think it should put some money aside and have CAC re-open the JF-17 design though.

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## araz

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 621986


Is this a CGI?
A


Haris Ali2140 said:


> It has to be good in technology not in dogfighting. Good AESA radar + EW package + Long range BVR will keep Rafale/SU-30 at edge.


Bhai.
Look at our limitations. A nascent aviation industry producijg its first ever joint venture with no prior experience. People learning on the job and making compromises as the right technology is either not available or too expensive or not liked by the other partner for various reasons. Then you start comparing it with a platform which is a produce of 100 years of cumulative experience, a turnkey product which defined a whole new generation of fighter jets and which is like a very graceful lady who is ageless and timeless. There is no comparison. 
Having said that flip the other side of the coin and see where you have reached since 2007-8. Where has the platform gone from the 1st protoype to block 3. Looking at our constraints and the restrictions of various kind put on us we have produced nothing short of a miracle with the help of our Iron brothers. Long live Pak China friendship.
A

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## mshan44



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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> Quite insightful this!
> 
> There is a logical design limit to what extent JF can be upgraded or do all sorts of things... In my view opening up the JF design...say... enlarging it with hybrid requirements of Azm will provide an extremely valuable experience both in design and manufacturing... can, to some extent, work as a cheaper validated platform.... like not creating the perfect Azm aircraft from get-go... but building block by building block.... A Directed Evolution Model, perhaps!
> 
> Such an approach with also allow breathing room in building up both HumanCapital and Fabrication facilities as well...
> 
> Regardless, Azm is going to leverage many techs from partners... we won't do it alone!


I was thinking ... We keep the ambition of AZM in place, go at it as this super difficult project for the sake of building local expertise and industries. However, we pay AVIC for continued JF-17 work (in China), and get those to plug gaps until AZM is ready. 

The risk with block-building AZM is that we could end up with a compromised design at the start, thus defeating the purpose of the project. I'd rather preserve the difficult top end specs for AZM, but buffer against the risk via an existing program.

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## FuturePAF

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I didn't say it was based on the MiG-21 or F-7. I said the PAF started its whole fighter project by first looking at a major F-7/MiG-21 upgrade (Sabre II). This fell through, but CAC kept working on its own clean-sheet design, but this new design (FC-1/Super-7) was still within the confines of what the PAF wanted at that time.
> 
> The Block-III is really stretching what the frozen design (PT-4) is capable of, so anything more would mean re-opening the design. However, jury's out on whether the PAF is interested in it -- at least internally, it's focusing on AZM (for now). I do think it should put some money aside and have CAC re-open the JF-17 design though.



Do you think the JF-17 could be re-designed to incorporate the relaxed stability in other 4th generation platforms?

Considering the sensors and avionics we are incorporating into the Block 3, I couldn’t agree more that the design needs to be opened up again.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

FuturePAF said:


> Do you think the JF-17 could be re-designed to incorporate the relaxed stability in other 4th generation platforms?
> 
> Considering the sensors and avionics we are incorporating into the Block 3, I couldn’t agree more that the design needs to be opened up again.


AVIC can re-open the design. It's a major investment though -- relaxing the stability could mean going all the way back to wind-tunnel tests, not to mention re-doing the integration, testing, etc of weapons.

The way I look at it, re-opening the design is akin to a new fighter entirely.

The PAF should think about 2 next-gen platforms: AZM (high-end, twin-engine) and a JF-17 NG (low-end, single-engine). The JF-17 NG could be a new fighter (sharing only the JF-17's name), but use AVIC's expertise from the J-10 and JF-17. Just a basic single-engine relaxed stability fighter with great maneuverability, space for a complete EW/ECM suite and AESA radar, low RCS, etc. You can sell it to AVIC as a next-gen LIFT.

The rationale is that if AZM gets delayed (which it will), you at least have a great new fighter to tap into for replacing old JF-17s in the 2020s and 2030s. But my idea is that use the stuff already available, don't reinvent the wheel.

So, tell AVIC to 'keep it simple' (again Lol). But I don't think it would cost anywhere near as much as AZM for AVIC to develop such a fighter. _Everything _for it is already in China: WS-13 or WS-19, fly-by-wire (from J-10C, Block-III), RCS reduction studies (J-20), and so on. They can do it, especially if the PAF keeps its nose out (to focus on AZM) and takes what it gets via AVIC. You can hand manufacturing to private sector entities as well.

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I was thinking ... We keep the ambition of AZM in place, go at it as this super difficult project for the sake of building local expertise and industries. However, we pay AVIC for continued JF-17 work (in China), and get those to plug gaps until AZM is ready.
> 
> The risk with block-building AZM is that we could end up with a compromised design at the start, thus defeating the purpose of the project. I'd rather preserve the difficult top end specs for AZM, but buffer against the risk via an existing program.



If they were going to open the JF-17, they should have done so with Block III. Especially knowing the acquisitions in the pipeline for the IAF & the inability to obtain additional F-16s from Washington. That this hasn’t happened means PAF has to now focus wholeheartedly on the Project AZM. If there comes a time to plug technological gaps, it must happen through F-16s, I strongly believe that the appetite for providing Pakistan some sort of military weapons is now there. If that’s not possible, then acquire 2-3 squadrons of J-10CE which will provide delta for delta replacement for the mirages. PAF could then operate a fleet of JF-17, J-10CE & F-16 till Project AZM matures.

As you have said before, whatever additional funds exists must be used for the Project AZM and critical support systems, for example, refuelers, additional BVRs, EW systems and even AEWCs and air defense systems.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Falcon26 said:


> If they were going to open the JF-17, they should have done so with Block III. Especially knowing the acquisitions in the pipeline for the IAF & the inability to obtain additional F-16s from Washington. That this hasn’t happened means PAF has to now focus wholeheartedly on the Project AZM. If there comes a time to plug technological gaps, it must happen through F-16s, I strongly believe that the appetite for providing Pakistan some sort of military weapons is now there. If that’s not possible, then acquire 2-3 squadrons of J-10CE which will provide delta for delta replacement for the mirages. PAF could then operate a fleet of JF-17, J-10CE & F-16 till Project AZM matures.
> 
> As you have said before, whatever additional funds exists must be used for the Project AZM and critical support systems, for example, refuelers, additional BVRs, EW systems and even AEWCs and air defense systems.


Actually, now that you mention it, if the PAF wraps up the JF-17 after Block-3/B, then it can very well tap into the J-10CE-line as high-tech stopgaps ahead of AZM. But it wouldn't be as a pre-set acquisition, rather, only if there's cash (outside of AZM).

That cash could come by wrapping up the JF-17 (assuming a budget's there to transition PAC to AZM in the meantime). However, the PAF can't wrap up the JF-17 until at least 2025 -- it's still producing Block-3s. So, the stopgap question won't arise I think until 2030.

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## anathema

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> AVIC can re-open the design. It's a major investment though -- relaxing the stability could mean going all the way back to wind-tunnel tests, not to mention re-doing the integration, testing, etc of weapons.
> 
> The way I look at it, re-opening the design is akin to a new fighter entirely.
> 
> The PAF should think about 2 next-gen platforms: AZM (high-end, twin-engine) and a JF-17 NG (low-end, single-engine). The JF-17 NG could be a new fighter (sharing only the JF-17's name), but use AVIC's expertise from the J-10 and JF-17. Just a basic single-engine relaxed stability fighter with great maneuverability, space for a complete EW/ECM suite and AESA radar, low RCS, etc. You can sell it to AVIC as a next-gen LIFT.
> 
> The rationale is that if AZM gets delayed (which it will), you at least have a great new fighter to tap into for replacing old JF-17s in the 2020s and 2030s. But my idea is that use the stuff already available, don't reinvent the wheel.
> 
> So, tell AVIC to 'keep it simple' (again Lol). But I don't think it would cost anywhere near as much as AZM for AVIC to develop such a fighter. _Everything _for it is already in China: WS-13 or WS-19, fly-by-wire (from J-10C, Block-III), RCS reduction studies (J-20), and so on. They can do it, especially if the PAF keeps its nose out (to focus on AZM) and takes what it gets via AVIC. You can hand manufacturing to private sector entities as well.



Isnt JF17 basically a aerodynamically stable aircraft - atleast base design wise ? So what is this relaxing the stability mean ?


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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Actually, now that you mention it, if the PAF wraps up the JF-17 after Block-3/B, then it can very well tap into the J-10CE-line as high-tech stopgaps ahead of AZM. But it wouldn't be as a pre-set acquisition, rather, only if there's cash (outside of AZM).
> 
> That cash could come by wrapping up the JF-17 (assuming a budget's there to transition PAC to AZM in the meantime). However, the PAF can't wrap up the JF-17 until at least 2025 -- it's still producing Block-3s. So, the stopgap question won't arise I think until 2030.



Agreed! And this talk of acquiring additional Mirages suggests that PAF isn’t interested in retiring the mirages anytime soon.


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## Haris Ali2140

araz said:


> Is this a CGI?
> A
> 
> Bhai.
> Look at our limitations. A nascent aviation industry producijg its first ever joint venture with no prior experience. People learning on the job and making compromises as the right technology is either not available or too expensive or not liked by the other partner for various reasons. Then you start comparing it with a platform which is a produce of 100 years of cumulative experience, a turnkey product which defined a whole new generation of fighter jets and which is like a very graceful lady who is ageless and timeless. There is no comparison.
> Having said that flip the other side of the coin and see where you have reached since 2007-8. Where has the platform gone from the 1st protoype to block 3. Looking at our constraints and the restrictions of various kind put on us we have produced nothing short of a miracle with the help of our Iron brothers. Long live Pak China friendship.
> A


Sir we are riding the backs of Chinese.


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## Tipu7

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I was thinking ... We keep the ambition of AZM in place, go at it as this super difficult project for the sake of building local expertise and industries. However, we pay AVIC for continued JF-17 work (in China), and get those to plug gaps until AZM is ready.
> 
> The risk with block-building AZM is that we could end up with a compromised design at the start, thus defeating the purpose of the project. I'd rather preserve the difficult top end specs for AZM, but buffer against the risk via an existing program.





Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> I fail to disagree with you!
> 
> In fact I tried to say the very same only in different manner. I am of the view that *ThunderEvolution *must continue...and there needs to be a plane between Thunder and Azm which will sort out a lot of things for us.
> 
> _A la_ Gripen NG enlargement with bigger/better powerplant and some design changes shall give our desingers and engineers enough to up their game..with help of the Chinese ...afterall it is a partnership...
> 
> This approach will be more *Directed Evolution *and would have shorter life span than* Clean Sheet Design.... *
> 
> *Without compromising on the ASR* we can have a F sola class fighter which we already have infrastructure, too large extent, and can easily absorb both the produciton and induction....
> 
> I do entertain the idea of complete inhouse production not too far in the future because that would be the true *foundation of the next step* ....*Azm*
> 
> We can start also from under licene production of turbines/aero-engine... something good to get our hands dirty upon... so many application...goes without saying!


I asked the same question from PAF Top official, that isn't it too much ambitious for Pakistan to directly jump from a basic 4th Gen project to a 5+ Gen project? 

The answer was that provided the funds are there and we maintain a consistent R&D, then yes, the next generation aircraft will come after Thunder. Delays can be there, but eventually it will come. And we will also work with our allies regarding this project. (He didn't comment on the depth of relationship between TFX and NGFA)

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> I asked the same question from PAF Top official, that isn't it too much ambitious for Pakistan to directly jump from a basic 4th Gen project to a 5+ Gen project?
> 
> The answer was that provided the funds are there and we maintain a consistent R&D, then yes, the next generation aircraft will come after Thunder. Delays can be there, but eventually it will come. And we will also work with our allies regarding this project. (He didn't comment on the depth of relationship between TFX and NGFA)


Unless they stretch Block-3/JF-17B production, this means, once the JF-17 is wrapped up, all of the facilities and people in that program will rollover to AZM.

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## Tipu7

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Unless they stretch Block-3/JF-17B production, this means, once the JF-17 is wrapped up, all of the facilities and people in that program will rollover to AZM.


I believe PAF has plans to develop advance blocks of Jf17 (possibly dedicated versions) after Blk3.

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## MastanKhan

Mangus Ortus Novem said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Tipu7
> 
> Brothers mine,
> 
> Why do we overlook the fact that even the great Thunder would require replacesment in a decade and half...the earlier Sqd...
> 
> My sense is that the production run will continue.... and if we add on some export orders as well... so a decade long run cann't be overruled...
> 
> Also, Azm will not be our entire fleet nor would F sola be here forever... so we need solutions for longer term... as we gain more maturity in design and fabrication... things will become easier a little.



Hi,

The JF17 will need to be upgraded to a 25% larger size---the supposedly original design---.

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## StormBreaker

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The JF17 will need to be upgraded to a 25% larger size---the supposedly original design---.


I take it you are being sarcastic here, aren’t you 

Last time, I saw you being less forgiving to some member who outright said “isko 25% enlarge kardo” jaise aviation to mazak ka khel hai


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## Nomad40

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The JF17 will need to be upgraded to a 25% larger size---the supposedly original design---.


You do realize that this will kill the whole idea Behind the JFT-------Not mentioning the aerodynamic performance and Engine + We already have a 25 % larger fighter.


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## araz

Tipu7 said:


> I believe PAF has plans to develop advance blocks of Jf17 (possibly dedicated versions) after Blk3.


Seems the most logical path to take. We need an NGF prior to 5th generation fighter.
A

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## mingle

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The JF17 will need to be upgraded to a 25% larger size---the supposedly original design---.


MK engine??

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## Ultima Thule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> You do realize that this will kill the whole idea Behind the JFT-------Not mentioning the aerodynamic performance and Engine + We already have a 25 % larger fighter.


 and be ready to being insulted/abused by @MastanKhan



mingle said:


> MK engine??


H @MastanKhan tell us what about WS-10, with its stupid and ridiculous theories


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## StormBreaker

Tipu7 said:


> I believe PAF has plans to develop advance blocks of Jf17 (possibly dedicated versions) after Blk3.


Bro, any idea if they have plans to step up the game to some extend, gearing up to the MTOW standard of Gripen E ?



seven0seven said:


> and be ready to being insulted/abused by @MastanKhan
> 
> 
> H @MastanKhan tell us what about WS-10, with its stupid and ridiculous theories


Is bar to pink pakka hai



mshan44 said:


> View attachment 622183


MashaAllah, What an Image, First love

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## Ultima Thule

StormBreaker said:


> Is bar to pink pakka hai


keon bhai mein ne kia kia hai???

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## Raider 21

seven0seven said:


> and be ready to being insulted/abused by @MastanKhan
> 
> 
> H @MastanKhan tell us what about WS-10, with its stupid and ridiculous theories


Haha it has become a fashion eh

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## MastanKhan

mingle said:


> MK engine??



Hi,

Chinese or the russians would be fighting over it---.

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## Trailer23

*Goin' old skool*









@Knuckles @Hodor @airomerix @Windjammer

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## Ultima Thule

MastanKhan said:


> Chinese or the russians would be fighting over it---.


What Russian and Chinese fighting over it, its for block-3 engine, and if Pakistan trying to increase the size of JFT and put the high thrust engine it will be no more JFT because it will structurally/mechanically different from original JFT, get out of your gutter mentality

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## BHarwana

araz said:


> Seems the most logical path to take. We need an NGF prior to 5th generation fighter.
> A


If PAF get AZM on the desired time in my opinion JF-17 will still see new blocks after block 3. Reason is the FGFA has many weapons restriction due to internal bay. Our air launch nuclear deterance after the retirement of Mirage will fall on the shoulders of JF-17. 
In my opinion there is no future of F-16 beyond the current block we have. USA will never let us have upgraded block 70 unless Pakistan and USA interests merge in such a way that Pakistan become essential for USA policy. So in my opinion there will be more blocks after block 3 but upgrade of block 3 will come long after induction of FGFA may be atleast 10 to 12 years after.

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## MastanKhan

StormBreaker said:


> I take it you are being sarcastic here, aren’t you
> 
> Last time, I saw you being less forgiving to some member who outright said “isko 25% enlarge kardo” jaise aviation to mazak ka khel hai



Hi,

Your assumption is incorrect---. I have always favored a 25% larger JF17---. This current form is too small---.

The problem with you kids is that you have no exposure to what has happened in the world of engineering in the past---. Then you ask for LINK---when you don't put any effort into learning the answer---you guys don't remember and don't give a sh-it about the answer---.

Do you know a country named JAPAN---. It outright rejected the F16---they built an F2---25% larger than the F16 for a certain reason---now why don't you go and find that reason---.



Mirage Battle Commander said:


> You do realize that this will kill the whole idea Behind the JFT-------Not mentioning the aerodynamic performance and Engine + We already have a 25 % larger fighter.




Hi,

The idea behind the size of the JF17 became obsolete right after it went into production---because the Paf had not done its homework right---.

The realized too late that BVR was the game in the town and across of the border---.

The Paf is singing the tune of BVR since the last 2 - 3 years---I talked about it on this forum 15 years ago---and other pak forums for about 20 plus years---.

There were fights happening with every other member who was convinced about the merge---. Not a single one of those members came to me and apologized and mentioned that I was right from the gitgo---.

After the JF17 got rejected for the key EW package by the french----they Paf had to go the chinese way---.

The chinese equipment is less expensive but bulkier---heavier---10-20-30% at times---that takes more room.

The goal post has also shifted for the Paf after facing the truth---now we should be looking at how to mount between 4 to 6 BVR's---or mount 2 CM400 AKG's on the wings---. The current model does not provide that facility to carry 2 heavy AShM's on each wing---like the purpoted F2---. Current size dictates that the CM400 mounting & launch manages aircraft stability when carried under the center line hard point---.

Prior to this was small sleek sharp resolute---a Gnat---fly low---hide amongst the rocks mindset---.

As for the aerodynamics---the design has already been established---. What performance you need from the aircraft other than carry more BVR's & off bore sight SR missiles---launch and get out---or carry 2 heavy AShM's---.

The Gripen Ng is a good example of the change---.

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## Ultima Thule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your assumption is incorrect---. I have always favored a 25% larger JF17---. This current form is too small---.
> 
> The problem with you kids is that you have no exposure to what has happened in the world of engineering in the past---. Then you ask for LINK---when you don't put any effort into learning the answer---you guys don't remember and don't give a sh-it about the answer---.
> 
> Do you know a country named JAPAN---. It outright rejected the F16---they built an F2---25% larger than the F16 for a certain reason---now why don't you go and find that reason---.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The idea behind the size of the JF17 became obsolete right after it went into production---because the Paf had not done its homework right---.
> 
> The realized too late that BVR was the game in the town and across of the border---.
> 
> The Paf is singing the tune of BVR since the last 2 - 3 years---I talked about it on this forum 15 years ago---and other pak forums for about 20 plus years---.
> 
> There were fights happening with every other member who was convinced about the merge---. Not a single one of those members came to me and apologized and mentioned that I was right from the gitgo---.
> 
> After the JF17 got rejected for the key EW package by the french----they Paf had to go the chinese way---.
> 
> The chinese equipment is less expensive but bulkier---heavier---10-20-30% at times---that takes more room.
> 
> The goal post has also shifted for the Paf after facing the truth---now we should be looking at how to mount between 4 to 6 BVR's---or mount 2 CM400 AKG's on the wings---. The current model does not provide that facility to carry 2 heavy AShM's on each wing---like the purpoted F2---. Current size dictates that the CM400 mounting & launch manages aircraft stability when carried under the center line hard point---.
> 
> Prior to this was small sleek sharp resolute---a Gnat---fly low---hide amongst the rocks mindset---.
> 
> As for the aerodynamics---the design has already been established---. What performance you need from the aircraft other than carry more BVR's & off bore sight SR missiles---launch and get out---or carry 2 heavy AShM's---.
> 
> The Gripen Ng is a good example of the change---.


Again your whole post just a garbage, you're knows nothing what is you talking about

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## Myth_buster_1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your assumption is incorrect---. I have always favored a 25% larger JF17---. This current form is too small---.
> 
> The problem with you kids is that you have no exposure to what has happened in the world of engineering in the past---. Then you ask for LINK---when you don't put any effort into learning the answer---you guys don't remember and don't give a sh-it about the answer---.
> 
> Do you know a country named JAPAN---. It outright rejected the F16---they built an F2---25% larger than the F16 for a certain reason---now why don't you go and find that reason---.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The idea behind the size of the JF17 became obsolete right after it went into production---because the Paf had not done its homework right---.
> 
> The realized too late that BVR was the game in the town and across of the border---.
> 
> The Paf is singing the tune of BVR since the last 2 - 3 years---I talked about it on this forum 15 years ago---and other pak forums for about 20 plus years---.
> 
> There were fights happening with every other member who was convinced about the merge---. Not a single one of those members came to me and apologized and mentioned that I was right from the gitgo---.
> 
> After the JF17 got rejected for the key EW package by the french----they Paf had to go the chinese way---.
> 
> The chinese equipment is less expensive but bulkier---heavier---10-20-30% at times---that takes more room.
> 
> The goal post has also shifted for the Paf after facing the truth---now we should be looking at how to mount between 4 to 6 BVR's---or mount 2 CM400 AKG's on the wings---. The current model does not provide that facility to carry 2 heavy AShM's on each wing---like the purpoted F2---. Current size dictates that the CM400 mounting & launch manages aircraft stability when carried under the center line hard point---.
> 
> Prior to this was small sleek sharp resolute---a Gnat---fly low---hide amongst the rocks mindset---.
> 
> As for the aerodynamics---the design has already been established---. What performance you need from the aircraft other than carry more BVR's & off bore sight SR missiles---launch and get out---or carry 2 heavy AShM's---.
> 
> The Gripen Ng is a good example of the change---.



are u planning on funding paf to fullfill ur wild fantasies? bigger jf means more money so with limited budget in paf hands this is the best they can have.



seven0seven said:


> Again your whole post just a garbage, you're knows nothing what is you talking about


he is that type of uncle g who critisises shadee ka khana after finishing 5 plates.

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## MastanKhan

StormBreaker said:


> I take it you are being sarcastic here, aren’t you
> 
> Last time, I saw you being less forgiving to some member who outright said “isko 25% enlarge kardo” jaise aviation to mazak ka khel hai



Hi,

You maybe not familiar as to what I have written on this forum for over a decade and a half about this aircraft and what my reasons were---.

From day one I was the proponent of a 25% larger JF17 and from day 1---I cared less if the engine was NOT powerful enough---because I knew that the coming war depended on the BVR platform and the EW package that the aircraft carried---.

9 and 10 g's performance was just for the air shows and the thrust ratio more than 1:1 was just to satisfy the ego---.

One of the greatest fighter aircraft the F14 had a lower thrust ratio to weight percentage but it was a monster when it came to air combat---.

The art of air combat is to fight the enemy from your position of strength---and that is where the Paf excelled in with the F86 Sabre and it was successful more time against the Gnat.

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## Trailer23

@Myth_buster_1


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## StormBreaker

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You maybe not familiar as to what I have written on this forum for over a decade and a half about this aircraft and what my reasons were---.
> 
> From day one I was the proponent of a 25% larger JF17 and from day 1---I cared less if the engine was NOT powerful enough---because I knew that the coming war depended on the BVR platform and the EW package that the aircraft carried---.
> 
> 9 and 10 g's performance was just for the air shows and the thrust ratio more than 1:1 was just to satisfy the ego---.
> 
> One of the greatest fighter aircraft the F14 had a lower thrust ratio to weight percentage but it was a monster when it came to air combat---.
> 
> The art of air combat is to fight the enemy from your position of strength---and that is where the Paf excelled in with the F86 Sabre and it was successful more time against the Gnat.


Who doesn’t wish for such what you want, 25% larger proportional aircraft.

Wouldn’t that be too Perfect for PAF? That should have been the path since start. Kia bol sakte hain ab. Light weight light weight, sab dil behlana hai.

In the age of BVR, be a BVR truck.

Medium weight are the perfect fighters in my book, They are better maneuverable if and when needed, as compared to heavies, usually have a good strong engine, Can carry the perfect payload package.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You maybe not familiar as to what I have written on this forum for over a decade and a half about this aircraft and what my reasons were---.
> 
> From day one I was the proponent of a 25% larger JF17 and from day 1---I cared less if the engine was NOT powerful enough---because I knew that the coming war depended on the BVR platform and the EW package that the aircraft carried---.
> 
> 9 and 10 g's performance was just for the air shows and the thrust ratio more than 1:1 was just to satisfy the ego---.
> 
> One of the greatest fighter aircraft the F14 had a lower thrust ratio to weight percentage but it was a monster when it came to air combat---.
> 
> The art of air combat is to fight the enemy from your position of strength---and that is where the Paf excelled in with the F86 Sabre and it was successful more time against the Gnat.


Close to 1:1 T/W ratio definitely helps yet mandatory (but no A-5s nonsense). 7.5Gs is enough or I'd say optimum, no 9Gs is not for airshows only as evidenced by a PAF Viper pilot that got 2 kills in the mid 80s. 25% would definitely be a great advantage particularly for the wing area. Intakes could definitely use a big change 

I think the F-14A had a lot of issues that led to newer versions being developed for the Tomcat to improve the T/W ratio. The A version had engine stalls happen occasionally.

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## Nomad40

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Your assumption is incorrect---. I have always favored a 25% larger JF17---. This current form is too small---.
> 
> The problem with you kids is that you have no exposure to what has happened in the world of engineering in the past---. Then you ask for LINK---when you don't put any effort into learning the answer---you guys don't remember and don't give a sh-it about the answer---.
> 
> Do you know a country named JAPAN---. It outright rejected the F16---they built an F2---25% larger than the F16 for a certain reason---now why don't you go and find that reason---.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The idea behind the size of the JF17 became obsolete right after it went into production---because the Paf had not done its homework right---.
> 
> The realized too late that BVR was the game in the town and across of the border---.
> 
> The Paf is singing the tune of BVR since the last 2 - 3 years---I talked about it on this forum 15 years ago---and other pak forums for about 20 plus years---.
> 
> There were fights happening with every other member who was convinced about the merge---. Not a single one of those members came to me and apologized and mentioned that I was right from the gitgo---.
> 
> After the JF17 got rejected for the key EW package by the french----they Paf had to go the chinese way---.
> 
> The chinese equipment is less expensive but bulkier---heavier---10-20-30% at times---that takes more room.
> 
> The goal post has also shifted for the Paf after facing the truth---now we should be looking at how to mount between 4 to 6 BVR's---or mount 2 CM400 AKG's on the wings---. The current model does not provide that facility to carry 2 heavy AShM's on each wing---like the purpoted F2---. Current size dictates that the CM400 mounting & launch manages aircraft stability when carried under the center line hard point---.
> 
> Prior to this was small sleek sharp resolute---a Gnat---fly low---hide amongst the rocks mindset---.
> 
> As for the aerodynamics---the design has already been established---. What performance you need from the aircraft other than carry more BVR's & off bore sight SR missiles---launch and get out---or carry 2 heavy AShM's---.
> 
> The Gripen Ng is a good example of the change---.




Okay @MastanKhan


----------



## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> Close to 1:1 T/W ratio definitely helps yet mandatory (but no A-5s nonsense). 7.5Gs is enough or I'd say optimum, no 9Gs is not for airshows only as evidenced by a PAF Viper pilot that got 2 kills in the mid 80s. 25% would definitely be a great advantage particularly for the wing area. Intakes could definitely use a big change
> 
> I think the F-14A had a lot of issues that led to newer versions being developed for the Tomcat to improve the T/W ratio. The A version had engine stalls happen occasionally.



Hi,

I am not saying that more powerful engine is not good---what I am saying is that a less powerful power plant is not bad either---.

In modern day combat---there are too many a probabilities involved and the sum of those leads to playing from a position of strength---.

It all comes down to a well planned---well programmed---well trained machine and a well executed plan---.

There has been a lot of thought put into this JF17 package by the builders---and based on that---and based on its own merits---the size of the JF17 and what it offers is a great success story in itself---.

A 25% larger JF17 would take the aircraft to a different plateau just like the F/A-18 to F/A 18 Hornet---.

Hopefully that would be the BLK 4---.

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## Philip the Arab

StormBreaker said:


> Who doesn’t wish for such what you want, 25% larger proportional aircraft.
> 
> Wouldn’t that be too Perfect for PAF? That should have been the path since start. Kia bol sakte hain ab. Light weight light weight, sab dil behlana hai.
> 
> In the age of BVR, be a BVR truck.
> 
> Medium weight are the perfect fighters in my book, They are better maneuverable if and when needed, as compared to heavies, usually have a good strong engine, Can carry the perfect payload package.


No need for a damn BVR truck, your losing at least 5 BVR missiles each time one of yours crashes. It is all about protecting your AWACS aircraft, and using PL-15 against those giant *** targets will be easy as f*ck and allow PAF to absolutely ravage IAF aircraft.

Even Su-30MKIs the mighty "mini awacs" will be like a former professional boxer turned blind trying to box a gang with knives.

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## Nomad40

seven0seven said:


> and be ready to being insulted/abused by @MastanKhan




Although he is pretty nice to me but I must say one thing


Buht ghuma pira kar bat karta hai @MastanKhan


He Certainly does keep the cameras rolling for us.

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## Bossman

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You maybe not familiar as to what I have written on this forum for over a decade and a half about this aircraft and what my reasons were---.
> 
> From day one I was the proponent of a 25% larger JF17 and from day 1---I cared less if the engine was NOT powerful enough---because I knew that the coming war depended on the BVR platform and the EW package that the aircraft carried---.
> 
> 9 and 10 g's performance was just for the air shows and the thrust ratio more than 1:1 was just to satisfy the ego---.
> 
> One of the greatest fighter aircraft the F14 had a lower thrust ratio to weight percentage but it was a monster when it came to air combat---.
> 
> The art of air combat is to fight the enemy from your position of strength---and that is where the Paf excelled in with the F86 Sabre and it was successful more time against the Gnat.


Don’t lie, from day one you were anti Jf17. For years you opposed the JF17. You wanted PAF to buy Mirage 2000. You are so dumb that you most probably don’t even remember it. You are just a total fake and a liar with no knowledge of the topics you pretend to be a expert on and those who fall for you on this forum are nothing but a bunch of idiots.

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## Nomad40

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am not saying that more powerful engine is not good---what I am saying is that a less powerful power plant is not bad either---.
> 
> In modern day combat---there are too many a probabilities involved and the sum of those leads to playing from a position of power---.
> 
> It all comes down to a well planned---well programmed---well trained machine and a well executed plan---.
> 
> There has been a lot of thought put into this JF17 package by the builders---and based on that---and based on its own merits---the size of the JF17 and what it offers is a great success story in itself---.
> 
> A 25% larger JF17 would take the aircraft to a different just like the F/A-18 to F/A 18 Hornet---.
> 
> Hopefully that would be the BLK 4---.



But @MastanKhan If jf-17 is a well executed plan than what are your premise to your argument about a larger jf-17 sir.


Iam puzzled.

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## Ultima Thule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Although he is pretty nice to me but I must say one thing
> 
> 
> Buht ghuma pira kar bat karta hai @MastanKhan
> 
> 
> He Certainly does keep the cameras rolling for us.


@MastanKhan always criticize senselessly without knowing the situation, he telling that we should increase JF-17 for 25% and @MastanKhan gave the example of Japanese F-2 which was fully develop/industrialized nation and back by USA, so we have no mature vast aviation industry like India have lets forget about Japan and @MastanKhan comparing to unrelated projects, We are following footsteps of JAS-39 GRIPEN development for our JF-17 upgrades rather than F-16 development


----------



## Nomad40

seven0seven said:


> @MastanKhan always criticize senselessly without knowing the situation, he telling that we should increase JF-17 for 25% and @MastanKhan gave the example of Japanese F-2 which was fully develop/industrialized nation and back by USA, so we have no mature vast aviation industry like India have lets forget about Japan and @MastanKhan comparing to unrelated projects, We are following footsteps of JAS-39 GRIPEN development for our JF-17 upgrades rather than F-16 development










South Africans can prove to be a strategic and influential Partner in the JF-17 and/or AZM.

Chinese are good but they might have divided attention------you know bigger fish to fry.

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## MastanKhan

Bossman said:


> Don’t lie, from day one you were anti Jf17. For years you opposed the JF17. You wanted PAF to buy Mirage 2000. You are so dumb that you most probably don’t even remember it. You are just a total fake and a liar with no knowledge of the topics you pretend to be a expert on and those who fall for you on this forum are nothing but a bunch of idiots.



Hi,

Okay---thank you for your input---. I don't have a problem with that---. You have a right to have your opinion---.

Mirage2K is just an aircraft that we could get without much conditions---. So what is the issue with that---.


----------



## Bossman

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Okay---thank you for your input---. I don't have a problem with that---. You have a right to have your opinion---.
> 
> Mirage2K is just an aircraft that we could get without much conditions---. So what is the issue with that---.


The issue is that you are a liar and a fake!

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## airomerix

Late 90's: F-16B #606 | Flanker killer







Early 2000s - F-16A #727 #728 | Griffins









On 22nd July 2014, F-16BM (Serial #82602) Flown by the then OC 9 squadron, Wg Cmdr Azman Khali and Sqn Ldr Asim, took off at 2000 hrs from Sargodha.

Reached target area over South Waziristan as part of Operation Zarb-e-Azab. The aircraft was equipped with 2 x 500lb JDAMs. As the LGB was released, it exploded prematurely thus damaging the aircraft. As aircraft fell down like a brick, Azman Khalil took control from S/L Asim and recovered the aircraft from a flat spin.

It was realized that the aircraft will not make it back to Sargodha due to fuel and hydraulic pipes leaking, PAF Base Mianwali was put on alert and the aircraft touches down. The aircraft was unable to stop since the throttle was not responding. The aircraft takes off again. Pilot asks ATC to install safety nets at the end fo the runway The aircraft makes the second attempt and stops by hitting the net at the end of the runway. The aircraft engine was switched off from outside by the aircrew.

The aircraft was later repaired at PAC Kamra ARF facility and returned to service within a year's time.






F-16D Block 52 | Falcons

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## Raider 21

airomerix said:


> Late 90's: F-16B #606 | Flanker killer
> 
> View attachment 622302
> 
> 
> 
> Early 2000s - F-16A #727 #728 | Griffins
> View attachment 622303
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 22nd July 2014, F-16BM (Serial #82602) Flown by the then OC 9 squadron, Wg Cmdr Azman Khali and Sqn Ldr Asim, took off at 2000 hrs from Sargodha.
> 
> Reached target area over South Waziristan as part of Operation Zarb-e-Azab. The aircraft was equipped with 2 x 500lb JDAMs. As the LGB was released, it exploded prematurely thus damaging the aircraft. As aircraft fell down like a brick, Azman Khalil took control from S/L Asim and recovered the aircraft from a flat spin.
> 
> It was realized that the aircraft will not make it back to Sargodha due to fuel and hydraulic pipes leaking, PAF Base Chakala was put on alert and the aircraft touches down. The aircraft was unable to stop since the throttle was not responding. The aircraft takes off again. Pilot asks ATC to install safety nets at the end fo the runway The aircraft makes the second attempt and stops by hitting the net at the end of the runway. The aircraft engine was switched off from outside by the aircrew.
> 
> The aircraft was later repaired at PAC Kamra ARF facility and returned to service within a year's time.
> 
> View attachment 622304
> 
> 
> F-16D Block 52 | Falcons
> 
> View attachment 622305


Great post. Serial 602 was known for issues with its air conditioning system. I am sure they have fixed that part too. Bad flight memories for those who would ferry that B tub to Masroor for x-country and exercises.

A Viper in a flat spin seems puzzling

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## Cookie Monster

Knuckles said:


> Great post. Serial 602 was known for issues with its air conditioning system. I am sure they have fixed that part too. Bad flight memories for those who would ferry that B tub to Masroor for x-country and exercises.
> 
> A Viper in a flat spin seems puzzling


I remember reading this in the news when this F16 was fixed in house...does Pak have such capability? As in producing F16 parts(needed for the repairs)...
...or was that just a one off allowed by US and done in house with imported parts?

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## MastanKhan

Bossman said:


> The issue is that you are a liar and a fake!



Hi,

If that is what your position is---then that is your position---. I ain't arguing with you about it---.

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## Talon

airomerix said:


> Late 90's: F-16B #606 | Flanker killer
> 
> View attachment 622302
> 
> 
> 
> Early 2000s - F-16A #727 #728 | Griffins
> View attachment 622303
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 22nd July 2014, F-16BM (Serial #82602) Flown by the then OC 9 squadron, Wg Cmdr Azman Khali and Sqn Ldr Asim, took off at 2000 hrs from Sargodha.
> 
> Reached target area over South Waziristan as part of Operation Zarb-e-Azab. The aircraft was equipped with 2 x 500lb JDAMs. As the LGB was released, it exploded prematurely thus damaging the aircraft. As aircraft fell down like a brick, Azman Khalil took control from S/L Asim and recovered the aircraft from a flat spin.
> 
> It was realized that the aircraft will not make it back to Sargodha due to fuel and hydraulic pipes leaking, PAF Base Chakala was put on alert and the aircraft touches down. The aircraft was unable to stop since the throttle was not responding. The aircraft takes off again. Pilot asks ATC to install safety nets at the end fo the runway The aircraft makes the second attempt and stops by hitting the net at the end of the runway. The aircraft engine was switched off from outside by the aircrew.
> 
> The aircraft was later repaired at PAC Kamra ARF facility and returned to service within a year's time.
> 
> View attachment 622304
> 
> 
> F-16D Block 52 | Falcons
> 
> View attachment 622305


I thought it landed at M M Alam base.

Also I never understood how did it go off prematurely, because arming delay is a must and a pilot like Azman Khalil cant miss this check.

P.s The picture of repaired viper was taken at Mushaf.

Notice the name on the aircraft:

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## MastanKhan

Bossman said:


> Don’t lie, from day one you were anti Jf17. For years you opposed the JF17. You wanted PAF to buy Mirage 2000. You are so dumb that you most probably don’t even remember it. You are just a total fake and a liar with no knowledge of the topics you pretend to be a expert on and those who fall for you on this forum are nothing but a bunch of idiots.



Hi,

The time frame of the M2k was starting from the mid 80's first---then the mid 90's---then the early 2000's---.

With the procurement in the mid 80's or the mid 90's of M2K's---at each step---The Manifest DESTINY Of Pakistan---would have changed drastically---.

It is just like a cut you receive on your leg and you don't care about it---it gets ulcerated----gangrene sets in and ultimately your leg is cut off---.

But OTOH---you picked up a tube of antibiotic---cleaned the wound and applied the ointment and within a couple of days---that same cut is healed---.

And you have no clue what life would have been without a leg---unless you are a jew or one who has lived in cold frozen climates all their lives---.

So---it ends in the choices we make---. The choices that Paf made for two decades---made pakistan weaker and weaker militarily---. Being militarily weaker---we could not assert our national point of view over our enemy---who had gotten a free reign to do whatsoever against us for close to 30 years and we did not have an answer for them---.

You would not do with your personal assets and treat them in a manner that Paf treated Pakistan's integrity---.

After the TTP---Paf was the biggest source of internal sabotage on the integrity of Pakistan---.


----------



## airomerix

Hodor said:


> I thought it landed at M M Alam base.
> 
> Also I never understood how did it go off prematurely, because arming delay is a must and a pilot like Azman Khalil cant miss this check.
> 
> P.s The picture of repaired viper was taken at Mushaf.
> 
> Notice the name on the aircraft:
> View attachment 622514



You are damn right!

I wrote that narrative from my memory. I confused between MM Alam and Nur Khan. Edited.Thanks!

The inquiry was ordered but the bomb debris was not found.

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## Talon

airomerix said:


> You are damn right!
> 
> I wrote that narrative from my memory. I confused between MM Alam and Nur Khan. Edited.Thanks!
> 
> The inquiry was ordered but the bomb debris was not found.


Arming delay settings should be in DTC as well..maybe.Anyhow PAF never releases accident details for public so we'll never know.Also I was told that Lockheed refused to repair or provide any support for the F-16 Infact they asked to scrap it.Kudos to PAC Kamra for restoring it.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> *You are mixing up different things---and I understand as a pakistani---you will have a difficult time understanding it---because your abbaji or Baray abbaji never told you something like that would happen---so cannot comprehend it---.*
> 
> The time frame of the M2k was starting from the mid 80's first---then the mid 90's---then the early 2000's---.
> 
> With the procurement in the mid 80's or the mid 90's of M2K's---The Manifest DESTINY Of Pakistan---would have changed drastically---.
> 
> It is just like a cut you receive on your leg and you don't care about it---it gets ulcerated----gangrene sets in and ultimately your leg is cut off---.
> 
> But OTOH---you picked up a tube of antibiotic---cleaned the wound and applied the ointment and within a couple of days---that same cut is healed---.
> 
> So---it ends in the choices we make---. The choices that Paf made for two decades---made pakistan weaker and weaker militarily---. Being militarily weaker---we could not assert our national point of view over our enemy---who had gotten a free reign to do whatsoever against us for close to 30 years and did not have an answer for them---.
> 
> You would not do with your personal assets and treat them in a manner that Paf treated Pakistan's integrity---.
> 
> After the TTP---Paf was the biggest source of internal sabotage on the integrity of Pakistan---.


Mastan please behave like your age. I'd like to believe your abbaji or baray abbaji taught you to respond seriously. It was a good post with the numbers you mentioned earlier https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/pakistan-f-16-discussions-2.15226/page-839#post-12219773

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## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> Arming delay settings should be in DTC as well..maybe.Anyhow PAF never releases accident details for public so we'll never know.Also I was told that Lockheed refused to repair or provide any support for the F-16 Infact they asked to scrap it.Kudos to PAC Kamra for restoring it.


I hope PAF releases a summarised and unrestricted investigation report for the Viper that crashed in Islamabad this year. The public deserves to know the truth, that F-16 belonged to them just as it did for the air force.

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## Dazzler



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## Sinnerman108

StormBreaker said:


> Who doesn’t wish for such what you want, 25% larger proportional aircraft.
> 
> Wouldn’t that be too Perfect for PAF? That should have been the path since start. Kia bol sakte hain ab. Light weight light weight, sab dil behlana hai.
> 
> In the age of BVR, be a BVR truck.
> 
> Medium weight are the perfect fighters in my book, They are better maneuverable if and when needed, as compared to heavies, usually have a good strong engine, Can carry the perfect payload package.



Bigger surface area, means bigger lift and larger carrying capacity
but it also means much larger drag. 
You cannot have one without other. 

The limiting factor when it comes to engineering is the engine, then MTBR then economics.

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## MastanKhan

Knuckles said:


> I hope PAF releases a summarised and unrestricted investigation report for the Viper that crashed in Islamabad this year. The public deserves to know the truth, that F-16 belonged to them just as it did for the air force.



Hi,

I doubt that will ever happen---. Truth will never come out.

The american analysts video was as close to the truth that will come out---.

The basic fundamental flaw in the flight was in mixing the topography / different altitude terrain in the flight path of the aircraft ---.

Did we not have an air blue accident when the Fasting induced diabetic incidence made the pilot make a bad decision regarding location and altitude and slammed the passenger aircraft into the margalla hills.

You also yourself knew it right from the gitgo what had happened---. With your background it is impossible that you did not know---.

I had known about that american aerobatic team's F16 crash in the US and the altitude input error---and I commented about that in my earlier posts on the subject matter---.


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Dazzler said:


>



that is alot of papers in cockpit.


----------



## Blacklight

Myth_buster_1 said:


> that is alot of papers in cockpit.


Khirki kholkay bhar phenkdain?


----------



## Myth_buster_1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Okay---thank you for your input---. I don't have a problem with that---. You have a right to have your opinion---.
> 
> Mirage2K is just an aircraft that we could get without much conditions---. So what is the issue with that---.



Mirage-2000 would have required upgrades which would not have been possible because of India's influence on France. 
Pakistan was only able to get F-16s because of Pakistan's contribution in WOT.



Blacklight said:


> Khirki kholkay bhar phenkdain?


ya phir abhinandon ki tharah kha jai.

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## Talon

Dazzler said:


>


Not PAF..

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## litman

Myth_buster_1 said:


> that is alot of papers in cockpit.


may be the pilot was preparing for his upcoming exams

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I doubt that will ever happen---. Truth will never come out.
> 
> The american analysts video was as close to the truth that will come out---.
> 
> The basic fundamental flaw in the flight was in mixing the topography / different altitude terrain in the flight path of the aircraft ---.
> 
> Did we not have an air blue accident when the Fasting induced diabetic incidence made the pilot make a bad decision regarding location and altitude and slammed the passenger aircraft into the margalla hills.
> 
> You also yourself knew it right from the gitgo what had happened---. With your background it is impossible that you did not know---.
> 
> I had known about that american aerobatic team's F16 crash in the US and the altitude input error---and I commented about that in my earlier posts on the subject matter---.


Haven't read the report on the airblue incident (had just finished high school around that time) other than the narrative you pointed out, but heard the jet crash. Was stuck at Islamabad due to the floods that year.

The American analysts did put out valid variables. I still say it was misjudged maneuver profile by the pilot, as he made the mistake of entering a Split S minus a roll and the slight increase in altitude. Previous Viper demos have been flown flawlessly and that too during rehearsals. His fatal crash once again proved that he was human.

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## HRK

Hodor said:


> Arming delay settings should be in DTC as well..maybe.Anyhow PAF never releases accident details for public so we'll never know.Also I was told that Lockheed refused to repair or provide any support for the F-16 Infact they asked to scrap it.Kudos to PAC Kamra for restoring it.


I was of the thought that it was repaired by Lockheed Martin provided kits ..... as far as i remember wing on starboard side was totally damaged so if repair the wing without receiving it from lockheed then it is really a commendable job

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## Raider 21

HRK said:


> I was of the thought that it was repaired by Lockheed Martin provided kits ..... as far as i remember wing on starboard side was totally damaged so if repair the wing without receiving it from lockheed then it is really a commendable job


No question about it. For sure they have been given limited support from the OEM.

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## Pakistani Fighter

StormBreaker said:


> Who doesn’t wish for such what you want, 25% larger proportional aircraft.
> 
> Wouldn’t that be too Perfect for PAF? That should have been the path since start. Kia bol sakte hain ab. Light weight light weight, sab dil behlana hai.
> 
> In the age of BVR, be a BVR truck.
> 
> Medium weight are the perfect fighters in my book, They are better maneuverable if and when needed, as compared to heavies, usually have a good strong engine, Can carry the perfect payload package.


What about RCS of those trucks?

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## Ultima Thule

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What about RCS of those trucks?


Yes they will have increase RCS but think that how many BVR this plate-form it can fire,its a similar in concept that of MKI that could able to carry 10-15 BVR if needed

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## StormBreaker

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> What about RCS of those trucks?


Is F-16 bad?
This is your answerr

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## Pakistani Fighter

StormBreaker said:


> Is F-16 bad?
> This is your answerr


Well I would assume planes like Su 30s, SU 35s, F 15s to be BVR Trucks

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## StormBreaker

Blacklight said:


> Jub ortee hoi machli aiyaegee, to aap ka kiya hoga janab e aali?


??

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## Safriz

Low RCS is one way of delaying radar detection , albeit expensive, but good electronic warfare and jamming is another way, and a cheaper option.

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## PakFactor

Hodor said:


> Arming delay settings should be in DTC as well..maybe.Anyhow PAF never releases accident details for public so we'll never know.Also I was told that Lockheed refused to repair or provide any support for the F-16 Infact they asked to scrap it.Kudos to PAC Kamra for restoring it.



@Hodor

On what basis did LH refused to provide kit to repair the plane? I don't understand if PAC was able to repair it, did they want PAF to pay out for another full priced fighter?


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## Raider 21

PakFactor said:


> @Hodor
> 
> On what basis did LH refused to provide kit to repair the plane? I don't understand if PAC was able to repair it, did they want PAF to pay out for another full priced fighter?


Could've been a spare parts issue. Might have had assistance from Turkey or so but I doubt LM completely said no to repairing the jet.

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## Blacklight

Knuckles said:


> Could've been a spare parts issue. Might have had assistance from Turkey or so but I doubt LM completely said no to repairing the jet.


I remember a similar incident with a PK B747. It did a belly landing, and Boeing said it was a write off. PIA brought the bird back to life.

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## Trailer23

Blacklight said:


> I remember a similar incident with a PK B747. It did a belly landing, and Boeing said it was a write off. PIA brought the bird back to life.


(late) Capt. Siraj. My aunt's father.

That was a miracle landing & he saved a lot of lives.

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## Raider 21

Blacklight said:


> I remember a similar incident with a PK B747. It did a belly landing, and Boeing said it was a write off. PIA brought the bird back to life.


Pilot error from what I heard. Disrupted a lot of activity that day. Boeing did provide assistance for the jet. 

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19860204-0

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## mingle

Blacklight said:


> I remember a similar incident with a PK B747. It did a belly landing, and Boeing said it was a write off. PIA brought the bird back to life.


I remember that landed Islamabad

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## Adam_Khan

Knuckles said:


> Pilot error from what I heard. Disrupted a lot of activity that day. Boeing did provide assistance for the jet.
> 
> https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19860204-0



Forgetting to lower the landing gear is a huge mistake especially when there are three crew members inside the cockpit,would love to hear what happened to the pilots after such a grave mistake.

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## ziaulislam

Adam_Khan said:


> Forgetting to lower the landing gear is a huge mistake especially when there are three crew members inside the cockpit,would love to hear what happened to the pilots after such a grave mistake.


Really? Forgot landing gear?
May be it was landing gear stuck or something ..
Cant believe you can forget that during landing

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## Adam_Khan

ziaulislam said:


> Really? Forgot landing gear?
> May be it was landing gear stuck or something ..
> Cant believe you can forget that during landing


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## kursed

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Actually, now that you mention it, if the PAF wraps up the JF-17 after Block-3/B, then it can very well tap into the J-10CE-line as high-tech stopgaps ahead of AZM. But it wouldn't be as a pre-set acquisition, rather, only if there's cash (outside of AZM).
> 
> That cash could come by wrapping up the JF-17 (assuming a budget's there to transition PAC to AZM in the meantime). However, the PAF can't wrap up the JF-17 until at least 2025 -- it's still producing Block-3s. So, the stopgap question won't arise I think until 2030.


The only thing stopping J10-CE's arrival with long-sticks are a few pending business-centric decisions that will govern the life cycle of this weapon system in PAF. As far as I see it, it's a done deal.

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Actually, now that you mention it, if the PAF wraps up the JF-17 after Block-3/B, then it can very well tap into the J-10CE-line as high-tech stopgaps ahead of AZM. But it wouldn't be as a pre-set acquisition, rather, only if there's cash (outside of AZM).
> 
> That cash could come by wrapping up the JF-17 (assuming a budget's there to transition PAC to AZM in the meantime). However, the PAF can't wrap up the JF-17 until at least 2025 -- it's still producing Block-3s. So, the stopgap question won't arise I think until 2030.


This might change if chinese offer a very lucrative deal and f16 case is completely dead..we would know this by 2025.

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## mingle

kursed said:


> The only thing stopping J10-CE's arrival with long-sticks are a few pending business-centric decisions that will govern the life cycle of this weapon system in PAF. As far as I see it, it's a done deal.


Good plane to replace Mirages too size and payload J10C JF-17 AESA PL15 combo not bad ideal for PAF along F16s V upgrades

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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> Good plane to replace Mirages too size and payload J10C JF-17 AESA PL15 combo not bad ideal for PAF along F16s V upgrades


If USA doesnt offer f16s used or new i suspect PAF will opt for j10s since azm is atleast 15 yrs away

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## ali_raza

ziaulislam said:


> If USA doesnt offer f16s used or new i suspect PAF will opt for j10s since azm is atleast 15 yrs away


j10 are not meant for paf that is final
more vipers will come in batches 
i dont want to say it but not everybody knows how these deals are done 
leg pulling string pulling arms twisting 
these r very complicated matters 
everyone including chinese want to give u least capable but want to get most out of u
so they have to do very very wise decisions

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## Safriz

ali_raza said:


> j10 are not meant for paf that is final
> more vipers will come in batches
> i dont want to say it but not everybody knows how these deals are done
> leg pulling string pulling arms twisting
> these r very complicated matters
> everyone including chinese want to give u least capable but want to get most out of u
> so they have to do very very wise decisions


People forget that J-10 was a PAF requirement in 2004 when PAF asked China to provide the jet "with Chinese engine".
China failed spectacularly in making own jet engines. Only in 2020 pictures have emerged of the J-10 being used in operational status with Chinese WS-10 engines and still mass production of the engine is low .


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## Ahmet Pasha

Every rumor, inside news or onversation goes roughly like this
PAF wants more F16s. U.S might not give greenlight. They might sanction us.

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## ziaulislam

ali_raza said:


> j10 are not meant for paf that is final
> more vipers will come in batches
> i dont want to say it but not everybody knows how these deals are done
> leg pulling string pulling arms twisting
> these r very complicated matters
> everyone including chinese want to give u least capable but want to get most out of u
> so they have to do very very wise decisions


Well in that case the jf17 order will go well beyond..250..
I think j10 will come out of necessity if diplomacy on vipers failed.
If however vipers do come than j10s wont be inducted..

Than there is the question of PL 15 as well.. I bet PAF will be less inclined to go for j10s if pl15 is releases to thunders


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## ali_raza

ziaulislam said:


> Well in that case the jf17 order will go well beyond..250..
> I think j10 will come out of necessity if diplomacy on vipers failed.
> If however vipers do come than j10s wont be inducted..
> 
> Than there is the question of PL 15 as well.. I bet PAF will be less inclined to go for j10s if pl15 is releases to thunders


another 10 would come 
and if vipers fails to come then too j10 wont come

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## Trailer23

An old footage we've all seen hundreds of times in the past, but this time the uploader (AIRBOYD) has released it in *4K* (2160p). Quality is flawless.

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## airomerix

Wing Commander Mujahid Anwar Khan inspects F-16A (#92730) landing gear wheel well at Hill AFB, Utah. 






Air Commodore Syed Hassan Raza inspects F-16A (#92730)

Air Commodore Raza was the director of the F-16 Weapons System Management in the Project Falcon.

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## Trailer23

For the diehard F-16 fanatics..., and then some.

Not a PAF vid, but that of a Familiarization of a USAF Trainee first time in an *F-16*. This is not a incentive ride.

@1:35 - Close to the border of Mexico, they go Vertical/Loop (4G's)
@4:05 - Kicks in the afterburner
@4:46 - They start hitting 9G's (but gradually)

I added this vid for you all 'cause I (personally) have never seen a pilot fly a Fam-Flight (Military). Commercial, pretty much every week.






@Knuckles @Hodor @airomerix @Haris Ali2140 @mingle @Adam_Khan @GriffinsRule @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @HRK @StormBreaker

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## StormBreaker

Trailer23 said:


> For the diehard F-16 fanatics..., and then some.
> 
> Not a PAF vid, but that of a Familiarization of a USAF Trainee first time in an *F-16*. This is not a incentive ride.
> 
> @1:35 - Close to the border of Mexico, they go Vertical/Loop (4G's)
> @4:05 - Kicks in the afterburner
> @4:46 - They start hitting 9G's (but gradually)
> 
> I added this vid for you all 'cause I (personally) have never seen a pilot fly a Fam-Flight (Military). Commercial, pretty much every week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Knuckles @Hodor @airomerix @Haris Ali2140 @mingle @Adam_Khan @GriffinsRule @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @HRK @StormBreaker


Great share,
The single piece bubble Canopy gives totally another experience


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## Adam_Khan

Trailer23 said:


> For the diehard F-16 fanatics..., and then some.
> 
> Not a PAF vid, but that of a Familiarization of a USAF Trainee first time in an *F-16*. This is not a incentive ride.
> 
> @1:35 - Close to the border of Mexico, they go Vertical/Loop (4G's)
> @4:05 - Kicks in the afterburner
> @4:46 - They start hitting 9G's (but gradually)
> 
> I added this vid for you all 'cause I (personally) have never seen a pilot fly a Fam-Flight (Military). Commercial, pretty much every week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Knuckles @Hodor @airomerix @Haris Ali2140 @mingle @Adam_Khan @GriffinsRule @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @HRK @StormBreaker



It's a fam flight for a senior airman working on F.35s.


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## GriffinsRule

Adam_Khan said:


> It's a fam flight for a senior airman working on F.35s.


Flight for someone from the ground crew, not a trainee pilot


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## Adam_Khan

GriffinsRule said:


> Flight for someone from the ground crew, not a trainee pilot



More like an incentive/joyride than anything else.


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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> For the diehard F-16 fanatics..., and then some.
> 
> Not a PAF vid, but that of a Familiarization of a USAF Trainee first time in an *F-16*. This is not a incentive ride.
> 
> @1:35 - Close to the border of Mexico, they go Vertical/Loop (4G's)
> @4:05 - Kicks in the afterburner
> @4:46 - They start hitting 9G's (but gradually)
> 
> I added this vid for you all 'cause I (personally) have never seen a pilot fly a Fam-Flight (Military). Commercial, pretty much every week.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Knuckles @Hodor @airomerix @Haris Ali2140 @mingle @Adam_Khan @GriffinsRule @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @HRK @StormBreaker


Haha it is an incentive ride. He's an Airman, not a trainee nor a student pilot. The F-16 is still unparalleled in a lot of ways.

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## StormBreaker

Knuckles said:


> Haha it is an incentive ride. He's an Airman, not a trainee nor a student pilot. The F-16 is still unparalleled in a lot of ways.


Such as ?


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## Trailer23

Well, he took 9G's like a Man.

Most people pass out on these incentive rides.

Wonder if he won the lottery for this flight.


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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> Well, he took 9G's like a Man.
> 
> Most people pass out on these incentive rides.
> 
> Wonder if he won the lottery for this flight.


Not quite, a lot of USAF enlisted personnel get a chance to go on incentive rides.Still hats off to him, not a lot of Viper pilots go up to 9Gs, let alone Mach 2.0

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## Readerdefence

Hi here the most senior and more knowledgeable members can consider of China
Exporting j10 to Pakistan as PAF is the only airforce in the world who can handle this
Product with agility to show the other potential customers to consider j10 for their airforce
Specially the customers who not been awarded the American or the European products
And still can check the Chinese gadgets in the hands of PAF who well they can maintain and out manoeuvre the next door European product
So now it’s not the matter of China is not offering j10 or granting the credit for its purchase
But it’s the hierarchy of PAF who has to decide
GOP can not resist against the armed forces if they decide to buy that particular product and
Though the country also willing to export
PS unless someone from somewhere chipper to PAF about j31 or jxx coming online in near future as a stealth then they will definitely forgo j10
Thank you


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## Ali_Baba

Dont know if he was a trainee airman, or ground crew or incentive flight.. BUT, that bloke took the 9G like a champ, no issues at all. Brushed it off totally !!!! Impressive for sure..

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## airomerix

F-16D Block 52+ recovering from a training sortie.

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## Trailer23

Kya yaar...

Een he 18 Block 52's ko daikh-daikh kar hum apna dil bhlatay rhtay hain.

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## WiderMan

airomerix said:


> F-16D Block 52+ recovering from a training sortie.
> 
> View attachment 623267



Not quite. Stopping over in Lejas on the long hop back home from Nellis.

AE 16. Griffins recovering.

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## mshan44



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## WiderMan



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## Trailer23

Images taken in Turkey?


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## WiderMan

Trailer23 said:


> Images taken in Turkey?


Oh yes, in 2010/11 I believe.


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## mshan44



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## Haris Ali2140

There is no kill switch on PAF's F-16s to stop them dead in their tracks, however there are many other ways to disable PAF to use them to their full potential:

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## loanranger

The way that jet bursts through the cloud making a ring around it is just gorgeous.

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## Armchair

Any chance of PAF picking up the 20 odd F-16s from Venezuela? The US would thank them for taking away key US technology from Venezuelan hands. These would fit PAF perfectly. 
https://theaviationist.com/2012/08/20/iran-f16/
https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...igs-would-benefit-both-caracas-and-its-moscow


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## nomi007

Armchair said:


> Any chance of PAF picking up the 20 odd F-16s from Venezuela? The US would thank them for taking away key US technology from Venezuelan hands. These would fit PAF perfectly.
> https://theaviationist.com/2012/08/20/iran-f16/
> https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...igs-would-benefit-both-caracas-and-its-moscow


PAF is interested in western countries' F-16s.

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## Adam_Khan

nomi007 said:


> PAF is interested in western countries' F-16s.



The F.16s used by European nations were all upgraded to MLU standard back in the 90's,they have been kept in a very good condition but sadly don't have much hours of service left.
Those aircraft would need something in the line of SLEP to stay in service for another decade or two.

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## Dazzler

PAC brought it back from the ICU..

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## khanasifm

Composites and fighters

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## mingle

Adam_Khan said:


> The F.16s used by European nations were all upgraded to MLU standard back in the 90's,they have been kept in a very good condition but sadly don't have much hours of service left.
> Those aircraft would need something in the line of SLEP to stay in service for another decade or two.


PAF won't get anything used from US until she won't procure new ones along Trump rule. What profit US will get from thrid party sale??? Why not sell them brand new where profit is???After COVID Pak is in better place to negotiate with US a good deal for defence procurement also sweeten the deal with PIA too.

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## Raider 21

Armchair said:


> Any chance of PAF picking up the 20 odd F-16s from Venezuela? The US would thank them for taking away key US technology from Venezuelan hands. These would fit PAF perfectly.
> https://theaviationist.com/2012/08/20/iran-f16/
> https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...igs-would-benefit-both-caracas-and-its-moscow


Nope. Venezuela loves their Vipers and are trying to maintain them as much as they can via the black market.

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## mingle

Knuckles said:


> Nope. Venezuela loves their Vipers and are trying to maintain them as much as they can via the black market.


Do they fly???


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## Raider 21

mingle said:


> Do they fly???


Yup

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## Armchair

Knuckles said:


> Nope. Venezuela loves their Vipers and are trying to maintain them as much as they can via the black market.



It's worth a try to buy them. _Don't knock 'em till you try 'em. _


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## Raider 21

Armchair said:


> It's worth a try to buy them. _Don't knock 'em till you try 'em. _


USA will block the sale. A few Block 32/42s from the Boneyard would be better both in terms of cost and longevity.

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## Armchair

Knuckles said:


> USA will block the sale. A few Block 32/42s from the Boneyard would be better both in terms of cost and longevity.



I think it is worth a try to make it happen. It makes logical sense for this for both Venezuela and the US. At the end of the day, the question can be asked _did you try?_


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## Raider 21

Armchair said:


> I think it is worth a try to make it happen. It makes logical sense for this for both Venezuela and the US. At the end of the day, the question can be asked _did you try?_


That was a silly question, be a little sensible. Obviously no but I know of some who tried.


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## Armchair

Knuckles said:


> That was a silly question, be a little sensible. Obviously no but I know of some who tried.



I meant rhetorically not literally "you". Such a thing cannot be tried by _some _it has to be tried by the top management including the PM.

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## Adam_Khan

Armchair said:


> I think it is worth a try to make it happen. It makes logical sense for this for both Venezuela and the US. At the end of the day, the question can be asked _did you try?_




Is it worth trying especially at the cost of antagonizing uncle sam even further.


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## nomi007

Dazzler said:


> PAC brought it back from the ICU..


Is any image available before damage?


----------



## DESERT FIGHTER

nomi007 said:


> Is any image available before damage?

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## Armchair

Adam_Khan said:


> Is it worth trying especially at the cost of antagonizing uncle sam even further.



That is a very slave-minded answer. So some members are so afraid of the US that they cannot even dare ask them if so and so deal can happen or not. Wow. Well not unexpected.


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## Adam_Khan

Armchair said:


> That is a very slave-minded answer. So some members are so afraid of the US that they cannot even dare ask them if so and so deal can happen or not. Wow. Well not unexpected.



Sadly that's the truth so deal with it.

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## araz

Knuckles said:


> USA will block the sale. A few Block 32/42s from the Boneyard would be better both in terms of cost and longevity.


@Knuckles
Do we know roughly the price of a 16/32-42 from the US bone yard(leavingaside the debate of whetherwe will be allowed or not). If we are trying to upgrade to 52 standard upgrade kit alone will be20 million a pop. If 72 then we are looking at ???30 to 35 million a pop.
A


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## Blacklight

Adam_Khan said:


> Is it worth trying especially at the cost of antagonizing uncle sam even further.





Armchair said:


> That is a very slave-minded answer. So some members are so afraid of the US that they cannot even dare ask them if so and so deal can happen or not. Wow. Well not unexpected.





Adam_Khan said:


> Sadly that's the truth so deal with it.



As of today, If someone were to ask PAF about this, a very interesting answer would be forthcoming.

Lets see which member actually delivers the goods.

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## Trailer23

Since we are on the topic from Post #12680
@Knuckles @Adam_Khan @araz

On the Topic: *New fighter for PAF Doctrine?* (page *57* and *59*)

Three very knowledgeable Members, such as yourselves have clearly stated that those F-16's in the boneyard in Arizona are not available to Pakistan.


Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 1. If used F-16s were available, then the PAF would've gotten them.





ziaulislam said:


> USA has 400 f16 c/d in the boneyard
> But they arent available for pakistan ..
> Only for close allies





airomerix said:


> Less than $30M for a Block 52
> 
> Not available for sale. Simple.
> 
> Unless they go through EDA process and congress approves it. There are no USAF F-16s available for Pakistan


Not to stir up a fight, but seems like a pretty All-Star cast of PDF.

I already got my answer from the Big-3. So, let me rephrase the Question on this Topic...

*Q. Could the PAF pursue the used F-16's (Block 32/42)?*

Note: Noting that no official word if we have attempted to purse them.

- Kinda like a 3-on-3 contest -​


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## Adam_Khan

Trailer23 said:


> Since we are on the topic from Post #12680
> @Knuckles @Adam_Khan @araz
> 
> On the Topic: *New fighter for PAF Doctrine?* (page *57* and *59*)
> 
> Three very knowledgeable Members, such as yourselves have clearly stated that those F-16's in the boneyard in Arizona are not available to Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> Not to stir up a fight, but seems like a pretty All-Star cast of PDF.
> 
> I already got my answer from the Big-3. So, let me rephrase the Question on this Topic...
> 
> *Q. Could the PAF pursue the used F-16's (Block 32/42)?*
> 
> Note: Noting that no official word if we have attempted to purse them.
> 
> - Kinda like a 3-on-3 contest -​




From what I've heard they did attempt but the response wasn't positive, many would disagree with me but reality is that F.16 remains the favourite toy of our airforce and they will keep on trying to find ways to increase the number of vipers.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Trailer23 said:


> Since we are on the topic from Post #12680
> @Knuckles @Adam_Khan @araz
> 
> On the Topic: *New fighter for PAF Doctrine?* (page *57* and *59*)
> 
> Three very knowledgeable Members, such as yourselves have clearly stated that those F-16's in the boneyard in Arizona are not available to Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> Not to stir up a fight, but seems like a pretty All-Star cast of PDF.
> 
> I already got my answer from the Big-3. So, let me rephrase the Question on this Topic...
> 
> *Q. Could the PAF pursue the used F-16's (Block 32/42)?*
> 
> Note: Noting that no official word if we have attempted to purse them.
> 
> - Kinda like a 3-on-3 contest -​


In theory, yes, the PAF can pursue used F-16s. Pakistan is (on paper) a Major Non-NATO Ally (MNNA) and can request access to mothballed ex-US equipment, and only pay for refurbishing them (under the Excess Defence Articles) program.

But when it comes to Pakistan, the theory doesn't apply.

The US isn't in the mood to help Pakistan get militarily stronger (as that'd concern India, which the US is working to get on board to help contain China).

The US wants normalization of ties between India and Pakistan (read: for India to get what it wants so that it can focus on China ... aka de-fang Pakistan).

The US is not going to de-fang Pakistan, but it doesn't want to sharpen those fangs either -- unless now India becomes a threat to the US.

That latter issue is at play from a policy standpoint, which has made getting used US equipment difficult for Pakistan. It's not just the F-16s, but also old helicopters, C-130s, old frigates, etc, you name it.

TLDR: The PAF is on everyone's sh!t list, more so than even the Pak Army or Pak Navy. Basically, air power is a strategic asset, especially if you have offensively capable assets and the freedom to equip, configure and deploy them at will. 

And Pakistan is currently in a situation where it is an indirect threat to US interests (i.e., diverting India's attention away from China). The US will deny us that asset. 

So, the only way to break from that is to (1) structurally transform your economy and get a miracle in your name so that you can outspend India on defence and/or (2) get solutions of your own like Project AZM.

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## Trailer23

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> But when it comes to Pakistan, the theory doesn't apply.
> 
> TLDR: the PAF is on everyone's sh!t list.


That theory & sh!t list should have been amended before we went into brokering the Afghan Peace Deal.

That was our (only) trump card which we outta have played before getting our feet wet.

And i'm not just talking about just F-16's but in terms of Hercs & Helicopters. Yeah sure everyone here has a solution for F-16's is Block III. But what're we supposed to do 'bout the rest. Who do we approach?

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## Haris Ali2140

Trailer23 said:


> That theory & sh!t list should have been amended before we went into brokering the Afghan Peace Deal.
> 
> That was our (only) trump card which we outta have played before getting our feet wet.
> 
> And i'm not just talking about just F-16's but in terms of Hercs & Helicopters. Yeah sure everyone here has a solution for F-16's is Block III. But what're we supposed to do 'bout the rest. Who do we approach?


Contrary to popular belief we too are desperate for withdrawal of US from Afghanistan. US in Afg means India in Afg means the western border will be hot means less attention on LOC and eastern WB.l which we cannot sustain.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Trailer23 said:


> That theory & sh!t list should have been amended before we went into brokering the Afghan Peace Deal.
> 
> That was our (only) trump card which we outta have played before getting our feet wet.
> 
> And i'm not just talking about just F-16's but in terms of Hercs & Helicopters. Yeah sure everyone here has a solution for F-16's is Block III. But what're we supposed to do 'bout the rest. Who do we approach?


Not sure why we thought the US would take us brokering the peace deal seriously.

This is something we all kept hearing on the forum by folks, but there was never any substance to the belief. If our leaders ever thought Pakistan was a serious player on the table, then the US likely laughed it off and told us to be happy they haven't put trade sanctions on us (and totally torpedo our economy seeing how we do maintain a trade surplus with the US!).

We spent all of our leverage in the early 2000s in helping the US get into Afghanistan, and got paid billions in dollars of military and economic aid at that time.

As for supplanting the C-130s and helicopters, there are ways. We can, for one, work with Ukraine/Brazil and Turkey, respectively.

Ukraine is working on a transport aircraft called An-178 -- as well as next-gen engine for it called AI-28 -- while Brazil has the C390. Sure, neither is as good as a Herc for rough conditions, but for most transport duties, these aircraft are fine.

We could work out a deal with either and became the top export customer, and in turn, get a sizable co-production deal to help our domestic industry.

The Turks invited us to their T625 utility helicopter program, and that links to the T629 attack helicopter. So, it's on us to stop panicking over perceived 'urgent needs', and switch to co-development and co-production instead.

Yes, it would mean keeping things quiet in the procurement front for 5-10 years (like the PAF is with Project AZM). However, just as the US doesn't want us to stab India, the US would also want India to focus on China.

If it falters in this regard, then the US will use Pakistan to sting India back in line (e.g., it did not openly sanction us for using the F-16s during Swift Retort). Think logically: If there is an Indo-Pak War, the beneficiary (as far as US is concerned) is China.

There are always ways. The issue is that Pakistani leaders and decision makers lack competence, sincerity and vision. There are a few gems, but by and large, folks are just in it for the job, not the cause.

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## Trango Towers

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In theory, yes, the PAF can pursue used F-16s. Pakistan is (on paper) a Major Non-NATO Ally (MNNA) and can request access to mothballed ex-US equipment, and only pay for refurbishing them (under the Excess Defence Articles) program.
> 
> But when it comes to Pakistan, the theory doesn't apply.
> 
> The US isn't in the mood to help Pakistan get militarily stronger (as that'd concern India, which the US is working to get on board to help contain China).
> 
> The US wants normalization of ties between India and Pakistan (read: for India to get what it wants so that it can focus on China ... aka de-fang Pakistan).
> 
> The US is not going to de-fang Pakistan, but it doesn't want to sharpen those fangs either -- unless now India becomes a threat to the US.
> 
> That latter issue is at play from a policy standpoint, which has made getting used US equipment difficult for Pakistan. It's not just the F-16s, but also old helicopters, C-130s, old frigates, etc, you name it.
> 
> TLDR: The PAF is on everyone's sh!t list, more so than even the Pak Army or Pak Navy. Basically, air power is a strategic asset, especially if you have offensively capable assets and the freedom to equip, configure and deploy them at will.
> 
> And Pakistan is currently in a situation where it is an indirect threat to US interests (i.e., diverting India's attention away from China). The US will deny us that asset.
> 
> So, the only way to break from that is to (1) structurally transform your economy and get a miracle in your name so that you can outspend India on defence and/or (2) get solutions of your own like Project AZM.





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In theory, yes, the PAF can pursue used F-16s. Pakistan is (on paper) a Major Non-NATO Ally (MNNA) and can request access to mothballed ex-US equipment, and only pay for refurbishing them (under the Excess Defence Articles) program.
> 
> But when it comes to Pakistan, the theory doesn't apply.
> 
> The US isn't in the mood to help Pakistan get militarily stronger (as that'd concern India, which the US is working to get on board to help contain China).
> 
> The US wants normalization of ties between India and Pakistan (read: for India to get what it wants so that it can focus on China ... aka de-fang Pakistan).
> 
> The US is not going to de-fang Pakistan, but it doesn't want to sharpen those fangs either -- unless now India becomes a threat to the US.
> 
> That latter issue is at play from a policy standpoint, which has made getting used US equipment difficult for Pakistan. It's not just the F-16s, but also old helicopters, C-130s, old frigates, etc, you name it.
> 
> TLDR: The PAF is on everyone's sh!t list, more so than even the Pak Army or Pak Navy. Basically, air power is a strategic asset, especially if you have offensively capable assets and the freedom to equip, configure and deploy them at will.
> 
> And Pakistan is currently in a situation where it is an indirect threat to US interests (i.e., diverting India's attention away from China). The US will deny us that asset.
> 
> So, the only way to break from that is to (1) structurally transform your economy and get a miracle in your name so that you can outspend India on defence and/or (2) get solutions of your own like Project AZM.



you are pretty spot on.
I think its a blessing that USA is showing its true colours. They blocked Zulus and F16. It means we have to focus the limited resources on weapons systems that we can rely on. Recent aerial skirmish between IAF and PAF has shown the world what we can do and it's also a lesson that the best toys doest mean the best players. Indians on paper should defeat PAF without taking off but the reality was displayed on Feb 27 2019.
the only way forward is lots of new jf17 blk3 and block 1 and 2 brought up to 3 standards. once this is done project AZM should be in the testing phase and we are with anything India can throw at us. 
India has to take a major decision on its fighter acquisition. once that's done then the other parties who only wish to see to India will become available if we have cash. that includes US f16.
remember Khafee last year started a rumour about F16 block 70 and I got a lot of abuse because i called him out. Well, he has disappeared and I am proven correct re the F16.

one other thing PAF can do with block 3 upgrade is strengthening the wings for greater loading and add additional hardpoints or multiple missile racks for A2A only JF17 block 3+.
maybe block 1 and 2 can focus on air to ground activities



Trango Towers said:


> you are pretty spot on.
> I think its a blessing that USA is showing its true colours. They blocked Zulus and F16. It means we have to focus the limited resources on weapons systems that we can rely on. Recent aerial skirmish between IAF and PAF has shown the world what we can do and it's also a lesson that the best toys doest mean the best players. Indians on paper should defeat PAF without taking off but the reality was displayed on Feb 27 2019.
> the only way forward is lots of new jf17 blk3 and block 1 and 2 brought up to 3 standards. once this is done project AZM should be in the testing phase and we are with anything India can throw at us.
> India has to take a major decision on its fighter acquisition. once that's done then the other parties who only wish to see to India will become available if we have cash. that includes US f16.
> remember Khafee last year started a rumour about F16 block 70 and I got a lot of abuse because i called him out. Well, he has disappeared and I am proven correct re the F16.
> 
> one other thing PAF can do with block 3 upgrade is strengthening the wings for greater loading and add additional hardpoints or multiple missile racks for A2A only JF17 block 3+.
> maybe block 1 and 2 can focus on air to ground activities

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## ali_raza

Trango Towers said:


> you are pretty spot on.
> I think its a blessing that USA is showing its true colours. They blocked Zulus and F16. It means we have to focus the limited resources on weapons systems that we can rely on. Recent aerial skirmish between IAF and PAF has shown the world what we can do and it's also a lesson that the best toys doest mean the best players. Indians on paper should defeat PAF without taking off but the reality was displayed on Feb 27 2019.
> the only way forward is lots of new jf17 blk3 and block 1 and 2 brought up to 3 standards. once this is done project AZM should be in the testing phase and we are with anything India can throw at us.
> India has to take a major decision on its fighter acquisition. once that's done then the other parties who only wish to see to India will become available if we have cash. that includes US f16.
> remember Khafee last year started a rumour about F16 block 70 and I got a lot of abuse because i called him out. Well, he has disappeared and I am proven correct re the F16.
> 
> one other thing PAF can do with block 3 upgrade is strengthening the wings for greater loading and add additional hardpoints or multiple missile racks for A2A only JF17 block 3+.
> maybe block 1 and 2 can focus on air to ground activities


it wasn’t a rumor 
and btw talks never stopped 
there r some things that americans want
if we ready to play ball 
f35 too will come.
these things r beyond ur understanding

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## Trango Towers

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) what do you think of this?

one other thing PAF can do with block 3 upgrade is strengthening the wings for greater loading and add additional hardpoints or multiple missile racks for A2A only JF17 block 3+.
maybe block 1 and 2 can focus on air to ground activities


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## Trailer23

ali_raza said:


> if we ready to play ball
> f35 too will come.


O yaar, I certainly did not have any intention of stirring up the hornets nest.

I was merely talking just 'F-16' as per Topic.

But now you've done it. Expect some responses within a day.


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## ali_raza

Trailer23 said:


> O yaar, I certainly did not have any intention of stirring up the hornets nest.
> 
> I was merely talking just 'F-16' as per Topic.
> 
> But now you've done it. Expect some responses within a day.


lol people can’t digest truth

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## Trailer23

ali_raza said:


> lol people can’t digest truth


We're here talking 'bout used-F-16's.

We can't even finance Block 70/72's on a 10 Year payment plan and here you're talking 'bout a US $108 Million plane.

Even a deal with the devil wouldn't let a F-35 land in Pakistan, let alone be in a PAF inventory.


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## mingle

ali_raza said:


> it wasn’t a rumor
> and btw talks never stopped
> there r some things that americans want
> if we ready to play ball
> f35 too will come.
> these things r beyond ur understanding


What U think he can't understand politics??? I believe it has nothing to with India?? What ever it is?? US main concern is Afghanistan where they spent 1 trillion


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## Trango Towers

Trailer23 said:


> We're here talking 'bout used-F-16's.
> 
> We can't even finance Block 70/72's on a 10 Year payment plan and here you're talking 'bout a US $108 Million plane.
> 
> Even a deal with the devil wouldn't let a F-35 land in Pakistan, let alone be in a PAF inventory.


Why would you want an F35 ?


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## Trailer23

Trango Towers said:


> Why would you want an F35 ?


Whoa, whoa, whoa...hold on.

I didn't even bring up the JSF.

You wanna point fingers, ask the other guy.

I started the conversation with the possibility of USED-F-16's - (first post on top)

Another Member shifted the matter...JSF.

Sheesh...

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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> That theory & sh!t list should have been amended before we went into brokering the Afghan Peace Deal.
> 
> That was our (only) trump card which we outta have played before getting our feet wet.
> 
> And i'm not just talking about just F-16's but in terms of Hercs & Helicopters. Yeah sure everyone here has a solution for F-16's is Block III. But what're we supposed to do 'bout the rest. Who do we approach?


The trump card isnt the peace agreement but the aftermath...maintianing the peace...second we needed IMF we used that trump card for IMF deal ..

We had a big problem getting f16s even after 9/11 and it was all of sudden in 2005 that it happened..despite it being no.1 on agenda during musharraf era..i believe it happened when PAF started to negotiate gripen deal...and was eyeing at rafales...USA squashed that deal and offered f16s instead

This video clip where he forced the f16





After 3 min...

I remeber cabinent giving approval for negotiations for aircarft from sweden (gripen). It was on PTV news...

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## ali_raza

Trailer23 said:


> We're here talking 'bout used-F-16's.
> 
> We can't even finance Block 70/72's on a 10 Year payment plan and here you're talking 'bout a US $108 Million plane.
> 
> Even a deal with the devil wouldn't let a F-35 land in Pakistan, let alone be in a PAF inventory.


buddy leme give u a tip about americans 
tbey r a super power because they have some rules and some ways
there biggest god is intrest and second is money 
after these things there is nothing 
u have it u get anything u want
and we have some of things america wants
and btw biggest dialogue in america is
whts in it for me

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## mingle

ali_raza said:


> buddy leme give u a tip about americans
> tbey r a super power because they have some rules and some ways
> there biggest god is intrest and second is money
> after these things there is nothing
> u have it u get anything u want
> and we have some of things america wants
> and btw biggest dialogue in america is
> whts in it for me


Business what they call it

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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> The trump card isnt the peace agreement but the aftermath...maintianing the peace...second we needed IMF we used that trump card for IMF deal ..
> 
> We had a big problem getting f16s even after 9/11 and it was all of sudden in 2005 that it happened..despite it being no.1 on agenda during musharraf era..i believe it happened when PAF started to negotiate gripen deal...and was eyeing at rafales...USA squashed that deal and offered f16s instead
> 
> This video clip where he forced the f16
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After 3 min...
> 
> I remeber cabinent giving approval for negotiations for aircarft from sweden (gripen). It was on PTV news...




Hi,

It could have been made simple thru initial negotiations right at the begining---.

If thing had not gone well---pakistan should have put sanctions on the supply line under pressure from pakistani public---.


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## ali_raza

ziaulislam said:


> The trump card isnt the peace agreement but the aftermath...maintianing the peace...second we needed IMF we used that trump card for IMF deal ..
> 
> We had a big problem getting f16s even after 9/11 and it was all of sudden in 2005 that it happened..despite it being no.1 on agenda during musharraf era..i believe it happened when PAF started to negotiate gripen deal...and was eyeing at rafales...USA squashed that deal and offered f16s instead
> 
> This video clip where he forced the f16
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After 3 min...
> 
> I remeber cabinent giving approval for negotiations for aircarft from sweden (gripen). It was on PTV news...


we never negotiated good enough 
had just mushi asked one thing 
whts in it for me 
i m giving u a gooddaam country on a plate for fuk sake take off all debt give us 10 billion a year 5/5 military civilian 
americans we’re ready to go any leagnth for us. but we fuuked up big time
capitulated right at the first time
had we had a guy with a little bit more balls to get the initial american pressure 
and the bogey about indians stepping in 
that was beyond funny but mushi pissed his pants
got wht americans gave him happily

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## ziaulislam

ali_raza said:


> we never negotiated good enough
> had just mushi asked one thing
> whts in it for me
> i m giving u a gooddaam country on a plate for fuk sake take off all debt give us 10 billion a year 5/5 military civilian
> americans we’re ready to go any leagnth for us. but we fuuked up big time
> capitulated right at the first time
> had we had a guy with a little bit more balls to get the initial american pressure
> and the bogey about indians stepping in
> that was beyond funny but mushi pissed his pants
> got wht americans gave him happily


A rumour of delayed IMF rupee went to 150 and everyone was panicking...
Its easy to you to say but pakistan was at defualt in 2018..a bailout of 25+ billion dollars saved it and that was mostly due to uncle sam allowing its arab friends,IMF,WB,AB pumping all that money....
Same was true in 2001..we were at near recession with worst growth after 1998 because of defualt we had in 1998..
Same will happen again in 2028 when bilawal and 2033 when marium nawaz will be leaving office after her 5 years

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> A rumour of delayed IMF rupee went to 150 and everyone was panicking...
> Its easy to you to say but pakistan was at defualt in 2018..a bailout of 25+ billion dollars saved it and that was mostly due to uncle sam allowing its arab friends,IMF,WB,AB pumping all that money....
> Same was true in 2001..we were at near recession with worst growth after 1998 because of defualt we had in 1998..
> Same will happen again in 2028 when bilawal and 2033 when marium nawaz will be leaving office after her 5 years


Bilawal and Maryam Nawaz not gonna happen my friend stop dreaming it's PTI all the way Zardari & Co has no chance along miss Calibre. 23-28 it's IK then another Guy from PTI 28-33 most probably Asad umer. Era to get into power through Washington by wheeling and dealing is gone.


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## Safriz

ziaulislam said:


> The trump card isnt the peace agreement but the aftermath...maintianing the peace...second we needed IMF we used that trump card for IMF deal ..
> 
> We had a big problem getting f16s even after 9/11 and it was all of sudden in 2005 that it happened..despite it being no.1 on agenda during musharraf era..i believe it happened when PAF started to negotiate gripen deal...and was eyeing at rafales...USA squashed that deal and offered f16s instead
> 
> This video clip where he forced the f16
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After 3 min...
> 
> I remeber cabinent giving approval for negotiations for aircarft from sweden (gripen). It was on PTV news...


Musharraf's Armed forces development program 2025 was the best capacity building program in the history of Pakistan.

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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> Bilawal and Maryam Nawaz not gonna happen my friend stop dreaming it's PTI all the way Zardari & Co has no chance along miss Calibre. 23-28 it's IK then another Guy from PTI 28-33 most probably Asad umer. Era to get into power through Washington by wheeling and dealing is gone.


I thought the same in 2007 and than it happened both enjoy overwhelming support in pakistan...but this isnt the thread to discuss it...

Point is next 6 months are crucial..trump is getting desperate and pakistan may have a chnace to play its hand..trumo ratings are dropping and he needs something grand...he used up all his popular cards already...i think his last card is full usa with draw without collapse of afghan govt(a settlement deal)...he will entice pakistan with something a military package i suspect


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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> I thought the same in 2007 and than it happened both enjoy overwhelming support in pakistan...but this isnt the thread to discuss it...


2007 whole pak knows how PPP got into power plus BB murder sympathy this time what's new you think last by election happened sargodha PPP got 90 votes among 200k. For PTI Corona is blessing is disguise they defer payments to IMF and G20 for two budgets it's about 24 billion $, low oil prices, extra 1.4 billion from IMF may get more on second review yes WB and ADB don't discard them.sugar mafia and Ata Mafia under control IPP will get renegotiate Stage is set for PTI for PPP they stuck in fake accounts case along Bilawal and N sharif are out along Maryam got conviction.US and EU wants deal with Talibans they got it why they bother IK and PTI they found a right guy a right place who actually delivered them not like previous Govts putting blame on Army.Even Joe Biden wins in DC he has no problem with IK he knows him very well will work along no issue at all.


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## ali_raza

ziaulislam said:


> A rumour of delayed IMF rupee went to 150 and everyone was panicking...
> Its easy to you to say but pakistan was at defualt in 2018..a bailout of 25+ billion dollars saved it and that was mostly due to uncle sam allowing its arab friends,IMF,WB,AB pumping all that money....
> Same was true in 2001..we were at near recession with worst growth after 1998 because of defualt we had in 1998..
> Same will happen again in 2028 when bilawal and 2033 when marium nawaz will be leaving office after her 5 years


things weren’t nearly as bad in 2001 we had healthy or somewhere good current account 
economy was tiny and manageable

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## Trango Towers

Trailer23 said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa...hold on.
> 
> I didn't even bring up the JSF.
> 
> You wanna point fingers, ask the other guy.
> 
> I started the conversation with the possibility of USED-F-16's - (first post on top)
> 
> Another Member shifted the matter...JSF.
> 
> Sheesh...



Calm down.. why are you jumping on hot coals..

I think the point is the same...f16 or F35...both are sanction laden peices of crap. Remember feb 27 PAF had to try to explain why f16 could nit be used offensively. 
My point is although f16 and F35 are excellent they are a handicap for us and hence why would we want them. It wasnt to point finger at you. So my dear brother..big hug and have a nice day


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## Myth_buster_1

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> It could have been made simple thru initial negotiations right at the begining---.
> 
> If thing had not gone well---pakistan should have put sanctions on the supply line under pressure from pakistani public---.



yah sure so easy. 
the only problem was. Pakistan was/is a third world country while USA is super power specially during its prime time 1990s 2000s.


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## araz

Trailer23 said:


> That theory & sh!t list should have been amended before we went into brokering the Afghan Peace Deal.
> 
> That was our (only) trump card which we outta have played before getting our feet wet.
> 
> And i'm not just talking about just F-16's but in terms of Hercs & Helicopters. Yeah sure everyone here has a solution for F-16's is Block III. But what're we supposed to do 'bout the rest. Who do we approach?


I did think along those lines. Someone should ha e gone in and asked what is in it for me? I suspect the answer was help with FATF some reserve loans from Saudi and UAE and smoothing out things with WB. 
I suspect although I cannot verify with certainty that with the acquisition of arms the question would have been politely put down by saying first sort this mess out and we promise to help you out.
Pakistan was in a bit of a pickle. On the verge of defaulting and increasing pressures internally to stabilize the country and restore peace so the country can move forward. I also suspect that when you talk of arms there are counter wishes like neutering the Nuke programmes, halting the JFT production/development etc. How practical is that to do? Secondly one can always play the Congress card and say we will do that but the Congress will not approve. 
I suspect Pakistani contingent thought that it might be better to avail the financial package on the table rather than push for that which will not be granted. In many ways we have been harping on about the necessity of the Afghan peace accord for regional stability. It does not behove well to have a mess in that area and the US might well have moved out irrespective of whether we helped out or not. 
So in short a lot of imponderables and unknown facts to make a logical conclusion.
A

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## Trailer23

Trango Towers said:


> Calm down.. why are you jumping on hot coals.


Well, in my defense I thought i'd make it crystal clear that I never brought up the F-35. It doesn't take long for people on PDF to start pointing fingers without knowing the actual source.

That being said, Mods keep reminding stay on the Topic. This topic would be dead & locked if we didn't consider options every opportunity we get. On the flip side, its a great place to keep uploading images of the F-16 which has been going on forever.

Now, everyday the situation changes. We may be closer to acquiring something today, and it may change tomorrow depending on the region.

The way I see it: we can't even get used F-16's or new Hercs, or new Hulu. We can't afford other Western equipment [and US would block such a deal]. We've rejected everything from China or can't get. I'll be pushing 65+ by the time AZM becomes a reality.

Our Economy is MashahAllah and funny thing, i've been hearing that old tape even when I owned a walkman.





And speaking of Economy, lets see how many Block III's we can afford.


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## Blacklight

Trailer23 said:


> Well, in my defense I thought i'd make it crystal clear that I never brought up the F-35. It doesn't take long for people on PDF to start pointing fingers without knowing the actual source.
> 
> That being said, Mods keep reminding stay on the Topic. This topic would be dead & locked if we didn't consider options every opportunity we get. On the flip side, its a great place to keep uploading images of the F-16 which has been going on forever.
> 
> Now, everyday the situation changes. We may be closer to acquiring something today, and it may change tomorrow depending on the region.
> 
> The way I see it: we can't even get used F-16's or new Hercs, or new Hulu. We can't afford other Western equipment [and US would block such a deal]. We've rejected everything from China or can't get. I'll be pushing 65+ by the time AZM becomes a reality.
> 
> Our Economy is MashahAllah and funny thing, i've been hearing that old tape even when I owned a walkman.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And speaking of Economy, lets see how many Block III's we can afford.


Mayoosi Kuffar hai

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## araz

Trailer23 said:


> Since we are on the topic from Post #12680
> @Knuckles @Adam_Khan @araz
> 
> On the Topic: *New fighter for PAF Doctrine?* (page *57* and *59*)
> 
> Three very knowledgeable Members, such as yourselves have clearly stated that those F-16's in the boneyard in Arizona are not available to Pakistan.
> 
> 
> 
> Not to stir up a fight, but seems like a pretty All-Star cast of PDF.
> 
> I already got my answer from the Big-3. So, let me rephrase the Question on this Topic...
> 
> *Q. Could the PAF pursue the used F-16's (Block 32/42)?*
> 
> Note: Noting that no official word if we have attempted to purse them.
> 
> - Kinda like a 3-on-3 contest -​


What are you trying to get at? If you are in possesion of information to the contrary bring it into the open and we can discuss it. Look, we all utilize publically available sources to make an educated guesses. At least I dont have any inside knowledge of PAF's working and acquisition strategy. When we make a guess, we can be wrong or right. Only time will tell. @Khafee may well have been right but broke the news too soon. In international negotiations a lot can happen between exxpression of interest to signing of Contract. One thing is for sure, even if Trump approves 16s from the Boneyards, they would need upgrade kits and that is where Congress would have to approve the request. What happens in the future remains unknown to all of us, but currently there is no indication that PAF will get their hands on more F16s.
A

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## Trailer23

@araz 
Relax man. I was merely bringing insight from other members on a discussion that was going on this Topic. They too had made it clear that Boneyard F-16's weren't possible. I just thought i'd be fair if others shared the same narrative.

We all get it - we have as much of a chance getting those jets as Pakistan winning another World Cup (cricket).

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## araz

Trailer23 said:


> @araz
> Relax man. I was merely bringing insight from other members on a discussion that was going on this Topic. They too had made it clear that Boneyard F-16's weren't possible. I just thought i'd be fair if others shared the same narrative.
> 
> We all get it - we have as much of a chance getting those jets as Pakistan winning another World Cup (cricket).


Yaar
When you get to my age, we all relax in all the wrong places.HAAHAAA. Needless to say 16s are an extension Of US policy towards Paklands. If it is happy it might hang some out to entice us. We have learnt this game well and with JFT Block 3 round the corner, we dont bite that often either. As to buying the new ones. US will surely not release our CSF and we will not spend our own sovereign funds to get them. So unless an angel with a fat check book steps in it seems unlikely. Older models are more feasible financially.
A

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## shaded

Can I safely assume that the F 16 is un-flyable were it not for the fly by wire system due to its aerodynamic instability?


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## Ultima Thule

shaded said:


> Can I safely assume that the F 16 is un-flyable were it not for the fly by wire system due to its aerodynamic instability?


what do you mean bro can you explain bit further


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## Haris Ali2140

shaded said:


> Can I safely assume that the F 16 is un-flyable were it not for the fly by wire system due to its aerodynamic instability?


Yes.


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## mshan44



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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> What are you trying to get at? If you are in possesion of information to the contrary bring it into the open and we can discuss it. Look, we all utilize publically available sources to make an educated guesses. At least I dont have any inside knowledge of PAF's working and acquisition strategy. When we make a guess, we can be wrong or right. Only time will tell. @Khafee may well have been right but broke the news too soon. In international negotiations a lot can happen between exxpression of interest to signing of Contract. One thing is for sure, even if Trump approves 16s from the Boneyards, they would need upgrade kits and that is where Congress would have to approve the request. What happens in the future remains unknown to all of us, but currently there is no indication that PAF will get their hands on more F16s.
> A


unless PAF gets MLUs from Europe/jordon and just give them structural upgrades..that would only require trump approval nothing else

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## araz

ziaulislam said:


> unless PAF gets MLUs from Europe/jordon and just give them structural upgrades..that would only require trump approval nothing else


Those air frames do not have much life left in them. The best bet is to get some 16/ 32or 42 from the boneyard and upgrade them.
A

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> Those air frames do not have much life left in them. The best bet is to get some 16/ 32or 42 from the bonetard and upgrade them.
> A


True but theoretically extention to 12000 hrs is feasible ..
Getting any deal through congress would require extensive lobbying

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## Armchair

The other route is to get the F-16s from Trump (from wherever in however many quantities possible), put them through a structural upgrade, and get approval for the Turkish upgrade path. None of this requires Congress.

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## Trailer23

*Lockheed looks to sell additional F-16s to customers in Africa, Asia and South America*​
By: Valerie Insinna
22/04/2020

*WASHINGTON* — Lockheed Martin anticipates another wave of international F-16 sales, with countries from _Africa_, _South America_ and _Southeast Asia_ among those interested in purchasing the jet, the company’s chief financial officer said Tuesday.

“I think this is a good fourth-generation aircraft for those customers that can’t afford the F-35 or, frankly, can’t at this time buy the F-35,” Lockheed CFO Kenneth Possenriede told investors during an April 21 earnings call. “It might be a good intermediary step for customers to go from the F-16 to F-35. So we see it frankly as complementary and not competing against themselves.”

Unlike the F-35 program, which is seeing disruption within its supply chain that could delay future deliveries, the F-16 production line has experienced little impact as a result of the coronavirus pandemic, Possenriede said.

The company moved production of the F-16 production line from Fort Worth, Texas, to Greenville, South Carolina, in 2019 to accommodate production of *16 Block 70 aircraft for Bahrain*. Since Bahrain’s order in 2018, Lockheed has garnered contracts for *eight F-16s for Bulgaria*, *14 aircraft for Slovakia*, and is working with the U.S. government on a sale of *66 jets for Taiwan*.

“We also have a couple of orders for F-16 that we're working to try to shape,” Possenriede said._ “There is an African country that is interested in F-16, so we're hopeful that will happen. [There is also a] South American country, *and then there are some Southeast Asian countries that are interested in F-16 as well.*”_

Possenriede didn’t detail which nations were considering purchases of the F-16, as defense companies typically wait until international militaries publicly declare their interest in a sale before talking about specific customers.

Richard Aboulafia, an aerospace analyst with the Teal Group, said there’s a “pretty good chance” that some of those orders materialize.

“Lockheed was doing a disservice by forgetting the F-16 program for so many years. They had this idea that the future was F-35 and nothing but F-35, ignoring the part of the market that is not prepared to buy the F-35 price tag,” he said. “It’s actually a really good franchise with a really solid core market. It seems ill-advised to neglect it.”

If a new customer in Africa is looking to buy F-16s, it could be *Botswana*, which has indicated an interest in buying fighter jets, Aboulafia said. Lockheed has already sold F-16s to Morocco and Egypt, and the U.S. State Department in 2019 cleared Morocco for new F-16s and upgrades.

In South America, Lockheed has been trying to sell F-16s to *Argentina* for years, but Aboulafia believes a second order for *Chile* is a more likely prospect. In Southeast Asia, a sale to *Indonesia* “would seem to be one of the most likely possibilities,” he added.

Link: https://www.defensenews.com/global/...l-f-16s-to-customers-in-africa-south-america/

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*​




*Lockheed Martin Anticipating F-16 Orders from African, SE Asian Customers*​
22/04/2020

Lockheed Martin anticipates F-16 jet sales to new customers from Africa and South East Asia to keep its order book buoyant for the 4th generation fighter in 2020.

“We recently sold F-16s to *Bulgaria* and *Slovakia*. There is an African country that is interested in the F-16, so we're hopeful that will happen. A South American country, and some South East Asian countries are interested in the jet as well,” Kenneth R. Possenriede, Chief Financial Officer, Lockheed Martin said during a conference call to financial analysts while announcing the company’s First Quarter 2020 Results on Tuesday.

The African country likely to buy the F-16s could be *Morocco*. Last year, the US State Department agreed to sell *25 new F-16C/D Block 72 jets to the country for $3.8 billion*. In 2019, it also approved a contract to upgrade 23 existing Moroccan F-16s to latest Viper configuration for $985.2 million; and another to supply Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAMs) and bombs worth $209 million.

Around two weeks ago, America greenlighted a $68 million deal to provide 10 AGM-84L Harpoon Block II Air Launched missiles for its F-16s.

Link: https://www.defenseworld.net/news/2...from_African__SE_Asian_Customers#.XqFF7sgzbIU

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*​
*Yeah, so I thought i'd put the Block 70/72 argument to bed once & for all.




*​

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## Blacklight

@Knuckles @Windjammer 

Is it true that a contract has been signed for a mix of new and used C130J, 9 of them? 

And on the F16's we are getting:
36 new Blk72
20 EDA
10 existing PAF to be upgraded?

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## ZedZeeshan

Blacklight said:


> @Knuckles @Windjammer
> 
> Is it true that a contract has been signed for a mix of new and used C130J, 9 of them?
> 
> And on the F16's we are getting:
> 36 new Blk72
> 20 EDA
> 10 existing PAF to be upgraded?


no news till now..


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## TsAr

Blacklight said:


> @Knuckles @Windjammer
> 
> Is it true that a contract has been signed for a mix of new and used C130J, 9 of them?
> 
> And on the F16's we are getting:
> 36 new Blk72
> 20 EDA
> 10 existing PAF to be upgraded?


I wish @Khafee was here to answer this....

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## Hassan Guy

TsAr said:


> I wish @Khafee was here to answer this....


I'll help answer.


None of that is gonna happen.

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## TsAr

Hassan Guy said:


> I'll help answer.
> 
> 
> are you saying this from experience or you have some source.....

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Hassan Guy said:


> I'll help answer.
> 
> 
> None of that is gonna happen.


The Afghan Peace Deal has nothing on the secret plot to ship 1 billion N95 masks to the US. How we got those N95 masks, we don't know, but a meth dealer in the Gulf was important. He didn't actually supply the masks though, or make them, he was there to witness the meeting that saw Pakistan get those masks from a Qatari kid.

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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Afghan Peace Deal has nothing on the secret plot to ship 1 billion N95 masks to the US. How we got those N95 masks, we don't know, but a meth dealer in the Gulf was important. He didn't actually supply the masks though, or make them, he was there to witness the meeting that saw Pakistan get those masks from a Qatari kid.


First time on this forum, I actually dont understand you.

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## Armchair

Here are some @Khafee leaks so far: 

1. F-16 Block 72
2. Su-35s
3. J-15s
4. C-130 J

Now, he is a dear brother, and as far as I know (one can never tell online) he is half Pakistani from the mother's side and is a Gulf military professional of the air force persuasion. @MastanKhan knows better about it. 
I for one am trying to put the thread of logic and reason behind these supposed purchases. I'm still at a loss.

Would I love to see more F-16s _if the US pays for them? Yes I would. _
At this point I'm neutral to these leaks I'm neither on the _nay _side nor the _aye. _


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## StormBreaker

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The Afghan Peace Deal has nothing on the secret plot to ship 1 billion N95 masks to the US. How we got those N95 masks, we don't know, but a meth dealer in the Gulf was important. He didn't actually supply the masks though, or make them, he was there to witness the meeting that saw Pakistan get those masks from a Qatari kid.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blacklight said:


> First time on this forum, I actually dont understand you.


I was being sarcastic. In 99% of cases, if there's a deal, we'll know about it from official channels first -- like gov't officials, state disclosures (e.g., DSCA), or credible journalists (who will name who they heard it from).

The stuff on forums is rarely a lock, and more often than not, we end up with people angry why the rumoured deal never went through, and then they concoct other stories (like how China told IK Pak can get anything, and IK said we want to pay for them -- Lol), and not accept that the rumour wasn't accurate.

I believe Khafee is telling the truth based on what he was told or heard (as is any source), but as you go up the chain on unofficial news, it's rarely firm info. You should hear something from at least 2-3 sources before having confidence in it. I'm actually sitting on info I recently heard from 2 different people, but will still wait for an official statement before spilling it (don't worry it's not related to F-16s).

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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I was being sarcastic. In 99% of cases, if there's a deal, we'll know about it from official channels first -- like gov't officials, state disclosures (e.g., DSCA), or credible journalists (who will name who they heard it from).
> 
> The stuff on forums is rarely a lock, and more often than not, we end up with people angry why the rumoured deal never went through, and then they concoct other stories (like how China told IK Pak can get anything, and IK said we want to pay for them -- Lol), and not accept that the rumour wasn't accurate.
> 
> I believe Khafee is telling the truth based on what he was told or heard (as is any source), but as you go up the chain on unofficial news, it's rarely firm info. You should hear something from at least 2-3 sources before having confidence in it. I'm actually sitting on info I recently heard from 2 different people, but will still wait for an official statement before spilling it (don't worry it's not related to F-16s).



Any hints?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blacklight said:


> Any hints?


If it's accurate, you'll see it in the news by end of 2020.

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## Blacklight

Armchair said:


> Here are some @Khafee leaks so far:
> 
> 1. F-16 Block 72
> 2. Su-35s
> 3. J-15s
> 4. C-130 J
> 
> Now, he is a dear brother, and as far as I know (one can never tell online) he is half Pakistani from the mother's side and is a Gulf military professional of the air force persuasion. @MastanKhan knows better about it.
> I for one am trying to put the thread of logic and reason behind these supposed purchases. I'm still at a loss.
> 
> Would I love to see more F-16s _if the US pays for them? Yes I would. _
> At this point I'm neutral to these leaks I'm neither on the _nay _side nor the _aye. _


He ruled out Su-35, and said it was a decoy for something else. If I'm not mistaken.

He is Army, not Air Force. 



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If it's accurate, you'll see it in the news by end of 2020.


Ever heard of Khuda ka Khauf? It's April bro.

Put a disclaimer, that it is just a rumor.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blacklight said:


> He ruled out Su-35, and said it was a decoy for something else. If I'm not mistaken.
> 
> 
> Ever heard of Khuda ka Khauf? It's April bro.
> 
> Put a disclaimer, that it is just a rumor.


To be fair, no one knows what exactly I'm talking about.

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I was being sarcastic. In 99% of cases, if there's a deal, we'll know about it from official channels first -- like gov't officials, state disclosures (e.g., DSCA), or credible journalists (who will name who they heard it from).
> 
> The stuff on forums is rarely a lock, and more often than not, we end up with people angry why the rumoured deal never went through, and then they concoct other stories (like how China told IK Pak can get anything, and IK said we want to pay for them -- Lol), and not accept that the rumour wasn't accurate.
> 
> I believe Khafee is telling the truth based on what he was told or heard (as is any source), but as you go up the chain on unofficial news, it's rarely firm info. You should hear something from at least 2-3 sources before having confidence in it. I'm actually sitting on info I recently heard from 2 different people, but will still wait for an official statement before spilling it (don't worry it's not related to F-16s).


You will only hear the news once its firmly finalized ..i doubt you will hear it before that..so short answer is we dont know..mean while afghan peacl deal is hanging pretty weak and is going to crumble any time...
The afghan govt is playing the bluff..thinking usa will not abandone them..i would have gone with the bluff but with corona anything is possible ..i wont be surprise if there is sudden full withdrawal

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## SD 10

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If it's accurate, you'll see it in the news by end of 2020.


can you tell if its airforce related or navy?

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## StormBreaker

SD 10 said:


> can you tell if its airforce related or navy?


Ab billu ne boldia ke year end to phir year end mein hi pata chalega na bhai.

Lets control our desires...

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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To be fair, no one knows what exactly I'm talking about.


Brother, you do understand that this is an online forum and not a Congressional inquiry. Just adding a disclaimer, that it is a rumor would absolve you. 

Just saying, in case you change your mind.

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To be fair, no one knows what exactly I'm talking about.


Seems some solid info

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## TsAr

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I was being sarcastic. In 99% of cases, if there's a deal, we'll know about it from official channels first -- like gov't officials, state disclosures (e.g., DSCA), or credible journalists (who will name who they heard it from).
> 
> The stuff on forums is rarely a lock, and more often than not, we end up with people angry why the rumoured deal never went through, and then they concoct other stories (like how China told IK Pak can get anything, and IK said we want to pay for them -- Lol), and not accept that the rumour wasn't accurate.
> 
> I believe Khafee is telling the truth based on what he was told or heard (as is any source), but as you go up the chain on unofficial news, it's rarely firm info. You should hear something from at least 2-3 sources before having confidence in it. I'm actually sitting on info I recently heard from 2 different people, but will still wait for an official statement before spilling it (don't worry it's not related to F-16s).


You can surely share the info on the forum, I am sure we would not blame you if it does not come out to be true. Purpose of the forum is to discuss and share....

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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> View attachment 626423
> 
> *Lockheed looks to sell additional F-16s to customers in Africa, Asia and South America*​
> By: Valerie Insinna
> 22/04/2020
> 
> *WASHINGTON* — Lockheed Martin anticipates another wave of international F-16 sales, with countries from _Africa_, _South America_ and _Southeast Asia_ among those interested in purchasing the jet, the company’s chief financial officer said Tuesday.
> 
> “I think this is a good fourth-generation aircraft for those customers that can’t afford the F-35 or, frankly, can’t at this time buy the F-35,” Lockheed CFO Kenneth Possenriede told investors during an April 21 earnings call. “It might be a good intermediary step for customers to go from the F-16 to F-35. So we see it frankly as complementary and not competing against themselves.”
> 
> Unlike the F-35 program, which is seeing disruption within its supply chain that could delay future deliveries, the F-16 production line has experienced little impact as a result of the coronavirus pandemic, Possenriede said.
> 
> The company moved production of the F-16 production line from Fort Worth, Texas, to Greenville, South Carolina, in 2019 to accommodate production of *16 Block 70 aircraft for Bahrain*. Since Bahrain’s order in 2018, Lockheed has garnered contracts for *eight F-16s for Bulgaria*, *14 aircraft for Slovakia*, and is working with the U.S. government on a sale of *66 jets for Taiwan*.
> 
> “We also have a couple of orders for F-16 that we're working to try to shape,” Possenriede said._ “There is an African country that is interested in F-16, so we're hopeful that will happen. [There is also a] South American country, *and then there are some Southeast Asian countries that are interested in F-16 as well.*”_
> 
> Possenriede didn’t detail which nations were considering purchases of the F-16, as defense companies typically wait until international militaries publicly declare their interest in a sale before talking about specific customers.
> 
> Richard Aboulafia, an aerospace analyst with the Teal Group, said there’s a “pretty good chance” that some of those orders materialize.
> 
> “Lockheed was doing a disservice by forgetting the F-16 program for so many years. They had this idea that the future was F-35 and nothing but F-35, ignoring the part of the market that is not prepared to buy the F-35 price tag,” he said. “It’s actually a really good franchise with a really solid core market. It seems ill-advised to neglect it.”
> 
> If a new customer in Africa is looking to buy F-16s, it could be *Botswana*, which has indicated an interest in buying fighter jets, Aboulafia said. Lockheed has already sold F-16s to Morocco and Egypt, and the U.S. State Department in 2019 cleared Morocco for new F-16s and upgrades.
> 
> In South America, Lockheed has been trying to sell F-16s to *Argentina* for years, but Aboulafia believes a second order for *Chile* is a more likely prospect. In Southeast Asia, a sale to *Indonesia* “would seem to be one of the most likely possibilities,” he added.
> 
> Link: https://www.defensenews.com/global/...l-f-16s-to-customers-in-africa-south-america/
> 
> *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*​
> View attachment 626424
> 
> *Lockheed Martin Anticipating F-16 Orders from African, SE Asian Customers*​
> 22/04/2020
> 
> Lockheed Martin anticipates F-16 jet sales to new customers from Africa and South East Asia to keep its order book buoyant for the 4th generation fighter in 2020.
> 
> “We recently sold F-16s to *Bulgaria* and *Slovakia*. There is an African country that is interested in the F-16, so we're hopeful that will happen. A South American country, and some South East Asian countries are interested in the jet as well,” Kenneth R. Possenriede, Chief Financial Officer, Lockheed Martin said during a conference call to financial analysts while announcing the company’s First Quarter 2020 Results on Tuesday.
> 
> The African country likely to buy the F-16s could be *Morocco*. Last year, the US State Department agreed to sell *25 new F-16C/D Block 72 jets to the country for $3.8 billion*. In 2019, it also approved a contract to upgrade 23 existing Moroccan F-16s to latest Viper configuration for $985.2 million; and another to supply Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAMs) and bombs worth $209 million.
> 
> Around two weeks ago, America greenlighted a $68 million deal to provide 10 AGM-84L Harpoon Block II Air Launched missiles for its F-16s.
> 
> Link: https://www.defenseworld.net/news/2...from_African__SE_Asian_Customers#.XqFF7sgzbIU
> 
> *-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*​
> *Yeah, so I thought i'd put the Block 70/72 argument to bed once & for all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *​


the standardization will help to drop the cost making it feasible to sell without subsidy..for example, the cost has now dropped by 40%..from 100m to around 60m a piece....
or basically it means that companies now know USA won't pay them so they are trying to drop the cost to sell them..

if f16 is dropped to 50m price range it is going to sell like hot cake in Africa, southeast Asia(like Malaysia, Indonesia, philippine ..because then nothing else can compete..
with coming of aim 260..aim 120c would probably also be available with the package



Blacklight said:


> @Knuckles @Windjammer
> 
> Is it true that a contract has been signed for a mix of new and used C130J, 9 of them?
> 
> And on the F16's we are getting:
> 36 new Blk72
> 20 EDA
> 10 existing PAF to be upgraded?


why would you want to update 10 when you have 18, overall numbers dont make sense..i am sure some disucssion is going on and something might materialize but none of us know what that is ..the Obama deal of 8 aircrafts was out of the blue too..none here could have predicted that would happen.even though negotiations went on for months between PAF, US govt and LM

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## MIG21DOWN

What does EDA mean?


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## Trailer23

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I was being sarcastic.


That's a first time for me. In the time i've been active on PDF, you're the only one who has never cracked a joke and are usually pretty straight forward. I think the lockdown is getting the best of The Best on PDF.


Blacklight said:


> Just adding a disclaimer, that it is a rumor would absolve you.


No. No. You're trying to add 2+2 to a rumor from another source. Its called fishing for answers.

This Covid-19. Jeez. Its really taking a toll on Nations. And i'm not just talking about the weak ones.

Honestly, if this continues - I won't be surprised if a alot of Defense Acquisitions may get cancelled or further delayed.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Trailer23 said:


> That's a first time for me. In the time i've been active on PDF, you're the only one who has never cracked a joke and are usually pretty straight forward. I think the lockdown is getting the best of The Best on PDF.
> 
> No. No. You're trying to add 2+2 to a rumor from another source. Its called fishing for answers.
> 
> This Covid-19. Jeez. Its really taking a toll on Nations. And i'm not just talking about the weak ones.
> 
> Honestly, if this continues - I won't be surprised if a alot of Defense Acquisitions may get cancelled or further delayed.


My issue is that I've been hearing 'forum news' like this for 18 years, and in all that time, only 1% of it ever came true, and that was always in relation to numbers and type more so than the news as a whole.

So, for example, in 2003-2004 agreed to sell F-16s to Pakistan, and in the 1-2 years since we heard forum rumours about the numbers, type, weapons package, etc.

That info was all true in the end, but the overall story (F-16 sales) was also true. The PAF said it was going to sign a deal, we just didn't know the specifics.

Likewise, in 2015-2017 we heard straight from the Turkish MoD about Pakistan being interested in the T129 ATAK and MILGEM. In 2018, both deals were inked.

Or the fact that the PN is working on a next-gen LRMPA to replace the P-3C, we know about it because (1) the CNS announced it and (2) the PN released a tender for the aircraft.

Or the fact that the PAF ordered 3 additional Erieye AEW&C? This was announced by the previous CAS via Alan Warnes. We looked through the MoDP reports, and Saab completed the deliveries of those systems in 2017-2018. 

Or the PAF's lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT) programs. This one's hilarious because we had even retired officers say "no such program" and what have you, and lo and behold, the current CAS tells Alan Warnes it's a real program. 

So, where were the rumour guys then?

_*This *_is the stuff that's actually happening with our armed forces. It's serious and promising stuff, but it's mundane and in the open. The ironic part is that *no one *with 'sources' actually saw any of the above happening until it hit the news.

Once something big gets going, it's known to everyone. If it's not known, then chances are, it isn't happening. Believe me, if there was actually a deal for 36 new-build Block-72 on the table, the whole world will know and talk about it.

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## Blacklight

MIG21DOWN said:


> What does EDA mean?


Excess Defense Article



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> My issue is that I've been hearing 'forum news' like this for 18 years, and in all that time, only 1% of it ever came true, and that was always in relation to numbers and type more so than the news as a whole.
> 
> So, for example, in 2003-2004 agreed to sell F-16s to Pakistan, and in the 1-2 years since we heard forum rumours about the numbers, type, weapons package, etc.
> 
> That info was all true in the end, but the overall story (F-16 sales) was also true. The PAF said it was going to sign a deal, we just didn't know the specifics.
> 
> Likewise, in 2015-2017 we heard straight from the Turkish MoD about Pakistan being interested in the T129 ATAK and MILGEM. In 2018, both deals were inked.
> 
> Or the fact that the PN is working on a next-gen LRMPA to replace the P-3C, we know about it because (1) the CNS announced it and (2) the PN released a tender for the aircraft.
> 
> _*This *_is the stuff that's actually happening with our armed forces. It's serious and promising stuff, but it's mundane and in the open.
> 
> Rationally, no news about a multi-billion dollar arms deal is going to reach this or any forum before officials and news outlets. Believe me, if there was genuinely a deal for 36 new-build Block-72 on the table, the whole world will know and talk about it.
> 
> Once something big gets going, it's known to everyone. If it's not known, then chances are, it isn't happening.


No that you have discredited "forum gossip", how about you drop some rumors?

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## MIG21DOWN

Blacklight said:


> Excess Defense Article
> 
> 
> No that you have discredited "forum gossip", how about you drop some rumors?


Thanks. What does that mean in relation to F16? I saw speculation on another forum of F16s and it said 20 EDA's with them. What does that mean?


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## Blacklight

MIG21DOWN said:


> Thanks. What does that mean in relation to F16? I saw speculation on another forum of F16s and it said 20 EDA's with them. What does that mean?


To bhai, jahan dekha tha, onhe say poochlo. Yahan to curfew laga hoa hai

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## Readerdefence

Hi the problem with PDF is anybody can post anything without giving any legit link or anything 
According to the braking news @ the true colour of that braking news essence is nobody challenging it & even mods doesn’t delete much of those unrelated super information to. Lean the thread or lock it down until unless someone really really got something concrete to post 
Now I’m sure the members here who have more & sound knowledge then me will really do something about it just to increase the post ratio without giving anything sold shouldn’t be counted towards the total number of posts 
I hope no body take it as a personal matter whatever I wrote 
Thank you


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## cloud4000

Armchair said:


> The other route is to get the F-16s from Trump (from wherever in however many quantities possible), put them through a structural upgrade, and get approval for the Turkish upgrade path. None of this requires Congress.



If it was that easy then Pakistan would've acquired them already. So what's the hold-up?


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## ziaulislam

cloud4000 said:


> If it was that easy then Pakistan would've acquired them already. So what's the hold-up?


cost...pakistan thinks CSF should be used for this acquisition..otherwise its going to stick with non sanctionable platform


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## Trailer23

cloud4000 said:


> If it was that easy then Pakistan would've acquired them already. So what's the hold-up?


Concerened? No ofcourse you aren't. You guys are on a spending spree. No wait, you're not. But maybe you are. But in all honesty..., who cares.

Maybe we're thinking strategically. Why should we go on a spending spree like others when we can get the job done in a 50 Years, near 40 Years and as some call it 'Chinese Junk' jets.

Look, we get it that all Indians are really proud of big budgets & the toys they can acquire.

The day we announce that we're locking up an order, i'll be sure to send you the links of your Government crying to the US Congress opposing the Sale.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...sts-F-16-sale-to-Pakistan/article14077415.ece

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## cloud4000

ziaulislam said:


> cost...pakistan thinks CSF should be used for this acquisition..otherwise its going to stick with non sanctionable platform



Even if you get to use CSF for purchases doesn't mean it will be sanction free. You know how fickle US can be. 



Trailer23 said:


> Concerened? No ofcourse you aren't. You guys are on a spending spree. No wait, you're not. But maybe you are. But in all honesty..., who cares.
> 
> Maybe we're thinking strategically. Why should we go on a spending spree like others when we can get the job done in a 50 Years, near 40 Years and as some call it 'Chinese Junk' jets.
> 
> Look, we get it that all Indians are really proud of big budgets & the toys they can acquire.
> 
> The day we announce that we're locking up an order, i'll be sure to send you the links of your Government crying to the US Congress opposing the Sale.
> 
> https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...sts-F-16-sale-to-Pakistan/article14077415.ece



Good. I hope Pakistan spends its meager resources on more defense purposes. As we have already seen, Pakistan's robust military and nuclear weapons have made Pakistan an Asian economic power. Not that India is worried about a handful of F-16s. Pakistan can try all it wants but it will never achieve conventional parity with India.

Nevertheless, I do wish Pakistan good luck with this endeavor.


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## Trailer23

cloud4000 said:


> Pakistan can try all it wants but it will never achieve conventional parity with India.
> 
> Nevertheless, I do wish Pakistan good luck with this endeavor.


We already proved what we're capable of. That being said, we will take your wishes when we choose on acquiring any hardware from the US.

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## Shah_Deu

cloud4000 said:


> Pakistan can try all it wants but it will never achieve conventional parity with India.


Ofcourse no nation 7 times smaller can have a numerical parity with the other, but we dont want to have a numerical parity at all when we can produce 27.02 like incidents with just a qualitative man+machine edge! The quality lies not in the size of the tool but how you use it!



cloud4000 said:


> Nevertheless, I do wish Pakistan good luck with this endeavor.


Thanks, but keep this luck to yourself, you need it more!

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## airomerix

F-16C Block 52 with AMRAAMs at Shabaz AFB

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## Dil Pakistan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> To be fair, no one knows what exactly I'm talking about.



Bhai! there is no problem...….the problem will start if even you don't know what your are talking about

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## MastanKhan

Shah_Deu said:


> Ofcourse no nation 7 times smaller can have a numerical parity with the other, but we dont want to have a numerical parity at all when we can produce 27.02 like incidents with just a qualitative man+machine edge! The quality lies not in the size of the tool but how you use it!
> 
> 
> Thanks, but keep this luck to yourself, you need it more!



Hi,

Those days are long gone---. Now the computer will do most of the things for you---.

The modern day cutting tools are miracle out of this world---.

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## mingle

Blacklight said:


> First time on this forum, I actually dont understand you.


Opps



Blacklight said:


> @Knuckles @Windjammer
> 
> Is it true that a contract has been signed for a mix of new and used C130J, 9 of them?
> 
> And on the F16's we are getting:
> 36 new Blk72
> 20 EDA
> 10 existing PAF to be upgraded?


Above article at defence news used word, wave,, says alot and means alot Morocco, Taiwan, few EU countries put Indonesia, Pakistan in South and southeast Asia. Article claim Chile may be but not too many IA Pakistan will get them.



MIG21DOWN said:


> What does EDA mean?


Excessive defence article



ziaulislam said:


> the standardization will help to drop the cost making it feasible to sell without subsidy..for example, the cost has now dropped by 40%..from 100m to around 60m a piece....
> or basically it means that companies now know USA won't pay them so they are trying to drop the cost to sell them..
> 
> if f16 is dropped to 50m price range it is going to sell like hot cake in Africa, southeast Asia(like Malaysia, Indonesia, philippine ..because then nothing else can compete..
> with coming of aim 260..aim 120c would probably also be available with the package
> 
> 
> why would you want to update 10 when you have 18, overall numbers dont make sense..i am sure some disucssion is going on and something might materialize but none of us know what that is ..the Obama deal of 8 aircrafts was out of the blue too..none here could have predicted that would happen.even though negotiations went on for months between PAF, US govt and LM


PAF will get slice from this Hott cake IA and I hope it would be sizeable slice.

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## ARMalik

It says deal for US Government.

https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/20...C-130J-Super-Hercules-aircraft/3371578934069/
*Lockheed announces $3B deal for 50 C-130J Super Hercules aircraft*

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## mingle

ARMalik said:


> It says deal for US Government.
> 
> https://www.upi.com/Defense-News/20...C-130J-Super-Hercules-aircraft/3371578934069/
> *Lockheed announces $3B deal for 50 C-130J Super Hercules aircraft*


Beacuse US Govt is paying to LM. LM its for US airforce but its for allies too like F16 62 billion awarded by US government

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## Armchair

MIG21DOWN said:


> Thanks. What does that mean in relation to F16? I saw speculation on another forum of F16s and it said 20 EDA's with them. What does that mean?



it means _purane kapre_

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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> _*This *_is the stuff that's actually happening with our armed forces. It's serious and promising stuff, but it's mundane and in the open. The ironic part is that *no one *with 'sources' actually saw any of the above happening until it hit the news.
> 
> Once something big gets going, it's known to everyone. If it's not known, then chances are, it isn't happening. Believe me, if there was actually a deal for 36 new-build Block-72 on the table, the whole world will know and talk about it.



Well he just didn't say 36new, he even mentioned 20 EDA, and 10 existing PAF ones to be upgraded. So all in 66. Very specific details. 

Given the multi year buys Lockheed has in place, quite possible. 

Time is a great Equalizer, lets see who is proven right.

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## Shabi1

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> My issue is that I've been hearing 'forum news' like this for 18 years, and in all that time, only 1% of it ever came true, and that was always in relation to numbers and type more so than the news as a whole.
> 
> So, for example, in 2003-2004 agreed to sell F-16s to Pakistan, and in the 1-2 years since we heard forum rumours about the numbers, type, weapons package, etc.
> 
> That info was all true in the end, but the overall story (F-16 sales) was also true. The PAF said it was going to sign a deal, we just didn't know the specifics.
> 
> Likewise, in 2015-2017 we heard straight from the Turkish MoD about Pakistan being interested in the T129 ATAK and MILGEM. In 2018, both deals were inked.
> 
> Or the fact that the PN is working on a next-gen LRMPA to replace the P-3C, we know about it because (1) the CNS announced it and (2) the PN released a tender for the aircraft.
> 
> Or the fact that the PAF ordered 3 additional Erieye AEW&C? This was announced by the previous CAS via Alan Warnes. We looked through the MoDP reports, and Saab completed the deliveries of those systems in 2017-2018.
> 
> Or the PAF's lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT) programs. This one's hilarious because we had even retired officers say "no such program" and what have you, and lo and behold, the current CAS tells Alan Warnes it's a real program.
> 
> So, where were the rumour guys then?
> 
> _*This *_is the stuff that's actually happening with our armed forces. It's serious and promising stuff, but it's mundane and in the open. The ironic part is that *no one *with 'sources' actually saw any of the above happening until it hit the news.
> 
> Once something big gets going, it's known to everyone. If it's not known, then chances are, it isn't happening. Believe me, if there was actually a deal for 36 new-build Block-72 on the table, the whole world will know and talk about it.




Agreed and also the fact that big ticket purchases don't make sense while we are trying to squeeze concessions on debt repayments and battling COVID-19. Purchases can wait while we get through this period.

Do foresee our military going through with capability enhancements via upgrades on systems and enhancement on local support infrastructure but won't be advertised until absolutely can't be hidden from public.

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## mshan44



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## mingle

Blacklight said:


> Well he just didn't say 36new, he even mentioned 20 EDA, and 10 existing PAF ones to be upgraded. So all in 66. Very specific details.
> 
> Given the multi year buys Lockheed has in place, quite possible.
> 
> Time is a great Equalizer, lets see who is proven right.


If money is available PAF should go more blk 70 beacuse they are cheap now due to standard versions. No need EDA better go more new blk 70 and rest PAF fleet to V finger crossed.



Shabi1 said:


> Agreed and also the fact that big ticket purchases don't make sense while we are trying to squeeze concessions on debt repayments and battling COVID-19. Purchases can wait while we get through this period.
> 
> Do foresee our military going through with capability enhancements via upgrades on systems and enhancement on local support infrastructure but won't be advertised until absolutely can't be hidden from public.


It's wouldn't be tax payers money it would be CSF nothing to do with COVID efforts. If Trump release them as he mentioned IK about two trillions $$ package means we will get our money but it will go back US coffers in arms purchase beacuse that what pak wants and Americans wants.

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## StormBreaker

mingle said:


> If money is available PAF should go more blk 70 beacuse they are cheap now due to standard versions. No need EDA better go more new blk 70 and rest PAF fleet to V finger crossed.
> 
> 
> It's wouldn't be tax payers money it would be CSF nothing to do with COVID efforts. If Trump release them as he mentioned IK about two trillions $$ package means we will get our money but it will go back US coffers in arms purchase beacuse that what pak wants and Americans wants.


However,

One thing that makes me curious, most probably because of my lack of understanding on the legalities involved in the CSF regards, Is USA really bound to pay CSF to PAK and that not doing so would actually have some problems for USA in the international arena ? They have halted CSF for a long time, Who is forcing them to pay CSF if that is the case ?

@Dazzler @Blacklight @dbc @Socra 

I can think of only you people who might answer my question or maybe not because not everyone can !!

In short, I know the answer is not as simple as Afghan peace deal But my curiosity is whether is it like this “Eventually you should pay liable CSF funds to Pakistan, Otherwise”, What is after “Otherwise” ?

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> My issue is that I've been hearing 'forum news' like this for 18 years, and in all that time, only 1% of it ever came true, and that was always in relation to numbers and type more so than the news as a whole.
> 
> So, for example, in 2003-2004 agreed to sell F-16s to Pakistan, and in the 1-2 years since we heard forum rumours about the numbers, type, weapons package, etc.
> 
> That info was all true in the end, but the overall story (F-16 sales) was also true. The PAF said it was going to sign a deal, we just didn't know the specifics.
> 
> Likewise, in 2015-2017 we heard straight from the Turkish MoD about Pakistan being interested in the T129 ATAK and MILGEM. In 2018, both deals were inked.
> 
> Or the fact that the PN is working on a next-gen LRMPA to replace the P-3C, we know about it because (1) the CNS announced it and (2) the PN released a tender for the aircraft.
> 
> Or the fact that the PAF ordered 3 additional Erieye AEW&C? This was announced by the previous CAS via Alan Warnes. We looked through the MoDP reports, and Saab completed the deliveries of those systems in 2017-2018.
> 
> Or the PAF's lead-in fighter trainer (LIFT) programs. This one's hilarious because we had even retired officers say "no such program" and what have you, and lo and behold, the current CAS tells Alan Warnes it's a real program.
> 
> So, where were the rumour guys then?
> 
> _*This *_is the stuff that's actually happening with our armed forces. It's serious and promising stuff, but it's mundane and in the open. The ironic part is that *no one *with 'sources' actually saw any of the above happening until it hit the news.
> 
> Once something big gets going, it's known to everyone. If it's not known, then chances are, it isn't happening. Believe me, if there was actually a deal for 36 new-build Block-72 on the table, the whole world will know and talk about it.



Hi,

So---many of those have fallen thru the cracks---change of command---change of govt---information leaked too soon---so the procurement process got sabotaged by the enemy.

Procurement went ahead as planned---procurement got sabotaged by the enemy right at the end---.

Planning was bad by the pak army or the Pak air force---did not get the equipment in a timely manner on a fast track basis---seller refused to sell---seller refused to deliver---.

If you dig in deeper---on most of these failed procurements---Pak military failed tp initiate the process properly from the start to the finish---.

The process was lackadaisical---enemy sabotage was not considered---decisions were made were more of an emotional nature rather than tactical---.

So---in the end---just like you point a finger at someone and there are three fingers pointing back at you---they are pointing back at Pak army and Pak air force---.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> So---many of those have fallen thru the cracks---change of command---change of govt---information leaked too soon---so the procurement process got sabotaged by the enemy.
> 
> Procurement went ahead as planned---procurement got sabotaged by the enemy right at the end---.
> 
> Planning was bad by the pak army or the Pak air force---did not get the equipment in a timely manner on a fast track basis---seller refused to sell---seller refused to deliver---.
> 
> If you dig in deeper---on most of these failed procurements---Pak military failed tp initiate the process properly from the start to the finish---.
> 
> The process was lackadaisical---enemy sabotage was not considered---decisions were made were more of an emotional nature rather than tactical---.
> 
> So---in the end---just like you point a finger at someone and there are three fingers pointing back at you---they are pointing back at Pak army and Pak air force---.


There were situations like that, but again, the official channels confirmed the reality of those programs. So, for example, the assault rifle tender was revealed to the world by the OEMs, and it fell through due to issues. Fair.

The concern I have is how 'sources' are concocting the existence, progress and failure of an _*entire*_ acquisition program without *one* verifiable source to back it up.

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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There were situations like that, but again, the official channels confirmed the reality of those programs. So, for example, the assault rifle tender was revealed to the world by the OEMs, and it fell through due to issues. Fair.
> 
> The concern I have is how 'sources' are concocting the existence, progress and failure of an _*entire*_ acquisition program without *one* verifiable source to back it up.


Something to think about

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There were situations like that, but again, the official channels confirmed the reality of those programs. So, for example, the assault rifle tender was revealed to the world by the OEMs, and it fell through due to issues. Fair.
> 
> The concern I have is how 'sources' are concocting the existence, progress and failure of an _*entire*_ acquisition program without *one* verifiable source to back it up.



Hi,

Before the invent of the internet---the hearsay was the only way---and it still has not changed---.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Before the invent of the internet---the hearsay was the only way---and it still has not changed---.


Before the internet we still had concepts about corroboration, multiple sources, and authenticity/credibility of said sources.

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## Blacklight

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Before the invent of the internet---the hearsay was the only way---and it still has not changed---.





Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Before the internet we still had concepts about corroboration, multiple sources, and authenticity/credibility of said sources.



Valid points gentlemen. 

So on one hand we have this guy, who was right about the Indian ASAT test, Indian Moon lander fiasco, PA's SRBM MaRV test, Pantsir deployments, and on the other hand tin cans, lots of noise and no substance. 

Oh well, to each his own.....

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> So---many of those have fallen thru the cracks---change of command---change of govt---information leaked too soon---so the procurement process got sabotaged by the enemy.
> 
> Procurement went ahead as planned---procurement got sabotaged by the enemy right at the end---.
> 
> Planning was bad by the pak army or the Pak air force---did not get the equipment in a timely manner on a fast track basis---seller refused to sell---seller refused to deliver---.
> 
> If you dig in deeper---on most of these failed procurements---Pak military failed tp initiate the process properly from the start to the finish---.
> 
> The process was lackadaisical---enemy sabotage was not considered---decisions were made were more of an emotional nature rather than tactical---.
> 
> So---in the end---just like you point a finger at someone and there are three fingers pointing back at you---they are pointing back at Pak army and Pak air force---.


And it is air force only for air force procurement. Army has no say in it.

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## Blacklight

Knuckles said:


> And it is air force only for air force procurement. Army has no say in it.


Reminds me of how Dar was in pains to pay for the Jordanian vipers, and one summon to GHQ, and payment was done.

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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Before the internet we still had concepts about corroboration, multiple sources, and authenticity/credibility of said sources.



Hi,

Everything has changed but nothing has changed---. It is still defense procurement---and the rumor mills keep on turning 24/7---but now reaction to sabotage is very quick---.

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## Trailer23

Early days of the Block 52, without No. 5 Squadron (Falcons) markings.

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## mshan44



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## Akh1112

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Before the internet we still had concepts about corroboration, multiple sources, and authenticity/credibility of said sources.



Honestly, talking to him is like talking to a brick wall. Don't waste your time.


----------



## airomerix

There is no such plan of military aircraft acquisition from US as of today. 

Even if we plan, strong lobbying efforts, groundwork, funds, and above all, good graces of US are required to get these. The acquisition of aircraft is very secondary right now as far as Pakistan's focus goes. 

Lets not spread rumors. My entire facebook feed goes crazy.

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## mingle

airomerix said:


> There is no such plan of military aircraft acquisition from US as of today.
> 
> Even if we plan, strong lobbying efforts, groundwork, funds, and above all, good graces of US are required to get these. The acquisition of aircraft is very secondary right now as far as Pakistan's focus goes.
> 
> Lets not spread rumors. My entire facebook feed goes crazy.


@Blacklight brother @airomerix got a different point of view.

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## ali_raza

airomerix said:


> There is no such plan of military aircraft acquisition from US as of today.
> 
> Even if we plan, strong lobbying efforts, groundwork, funds, and above all, good graces of US are required to get these. The acquisition of aircraft is very secondary right now as far as Pakistan's focus goes.
> 
> Lets not spread rumors. My entire facebook feed goes crazy.


opposite to wht u said is the truth

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## Adam_Khan

mingle said:


> @Blacklight brother @airomerix got a different point of view.




Sadly @airomerix is correct.

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## Blacklight

mingle said:


> @Blacklight brother @airomerix got a different point of view.


Everyone is entitled to their opinions, no issues bro! It is only a matter of months, on the hercs. The first few will be very interesting

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## TsAr

mingle said:


> @Blacklight brother @airomerix got a different point of view.


everyone has the right to their own viewpoint....

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## Pakistani Fighter

airomerix said:


> There is no such plan of military aircraft acquisition from US as of today.


and Upgradation of the existing platforms?



Adam_Khan said:


> Sadly @airomerix is correct.


I want 100 F16s (75 upgraded to V Standard) and 25 new Block 72s armed with AIM 120Ds

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## mshan44



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## ziaulislam

*F-16 at Spangdahlem first in Europe to hit 10,000 flight hours*




An F-16 Fighting Falcon assigned to the 52nd Fighter Wing at Spangdahlem Air Base, Germany, is given a water salute on Thursday, April 23, 2020, after completing 10,000 flight hours. The F-16 was the first in Europe, and only the second in the U.S. Air Force's inventory, to cross the 10,000 flight-hour mark.

JENNIFER H. SVAN | STARS AND STRIPESPublished: April 24, 2020

An F-16 combat jet at Spangdahlem Air Base achieved a landmark 10,000 flight hours on Thursday, nearly 27 years after it rolled off the production line and began flying for the 52nd Fighter Wing.

The aircraft – Tail No. 343 – is the first Block 50 Fighting Falcon in Europe and only the second F-16 in the U.S. Air Force’s inventory to reach the historic milestone, something maintainers hailed as a testament to its durability and their dedicated labor.

An F-16 at Misawa Air Base in northern Japan hit the mark a year ago, but that jet was delivered a year earlier than Spangdahlem’s, maintainers said. It also took 26 years and 11 months to reach 10,000 hours – two months longer than No. 343.

“It takes a lot of work and a lot of diligence and a lot of very thorough inspections to keep (the aircraft) safe and ready to fly,” said Senior Master Sgt. Andrew Yates of the 480th Aircraft Maintenance Unit at Spangdahlem.

“The plane’s been flying since before about 75% of the people in this building were even born – definitely before any of us even joined the military,” he said.

Both are true for 1st Lt. Christina Nunley, 25, the assistant officer in charge for the 480th AMU.





U.S. Air Force Col. Jason Hokaj, 52nd Fighter Wing vice commander, prepares for takeoff in aircraft 343, an F-16 Fighting Falcon, at Spangdahlem Air Base, Germany, April 23, 2020. Later that day, Hokaj's aircraft passed the 10,000 flight hours milestone.
KYLE COPE/U.S. AIR FORCE

“This aircraft has been at Spangdahlem longer than I have been alive,” she said. “Obviously, there are struggles that come with having an older aircraft, but the history behind it is a huge motivating factor and it’s something that we take a lot of pride in.”

Chief Master Sgt. Chris Yager, 45, is part of that history. His first assignment out of tech school in 1997 was at Spangdahlem, where he worked on the jet and saw it reach 2,000 flight hours.

Back then, “there were those old crusty guys that were out there training me how to work on aircraft and sometimes I wondered why they were training me the way they were,” said Yager, the 52nd Maintenance Group superintendent.

With Thursday’s milestone, Yager said he sees “the fruits of that labor.”

Keeping No. 343 airworthy involved about 190,000 hours of work by ground crews, maintainers said. The F-16 on average requires 19 hours of maintenance for every hour of flying time – a figure that includes thorough inspections, refueling and basic maintenance such as changing tires and oil.

The wing’s vice commander, Col. Jason Hokaj, took the jet up Thursday afternoon for less than an hour to reached the milestone. Base firefighters hosed down the aircraft as it taxied down the flightline after landing.

“This is such an amazing event to be part of,” Hokaj said in a statement. “To think about the amount of hands and minds used to get here, to keep this machine flying, it’s a testament to the professionalism of the 52nd Maintenance Group.”



The Lockheed Martin Block 50 F-16s that the 480th Fighter Squadron flies were initially designed to last 8,000 flight hours, Yates said. But a series of upgrades has kept many of them going past that mark, he said.

Yager likened the F-16 to the Air Force’s Cold War-era B-52 bomber, which is still in service after more than 50 years.

“It was only designed for so many hours but it keeps going and going,” he said.

Lockheed Martin’s F-35A Lightning II is the planned replacement for the F-16 across the service, but due to delays in the program, the F-16s are expected to receive service-life extension upgrades to keep them airworthy until 2048 and beyond.

No. 343 was part of the 480th’s deployment for Operation Inherent Resolve to Iraq and Syria in 2016, when the squadron broke a record for number of munitions dropped by an F-16 unit within a six-month period.

“It’s just been a good, durable aircraft,” Yates said. “There’s a lot of superstition in the maintenance community – rubbing the bellies and certain things – but really, the biggest reason is … making sure all the required inspections for this aircraft are complied with.”

_svan.jennifer@stripes.com
Twitter: @stripesktown_

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## Pakistani Fighter

ziaulislam said:


> 2048 and beyond.

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## LKJ86

ziaulislam said:


> *F-16 at Spangdahlem first in Europe to hit 10,000 flight hours*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An F-16 Fighting Falcon assigned to the 52nd Fighter Wing at Spangdahlem Air Base, Germany, is given a water salute on Thursday, April 23, 2020, after completing 10,000 flight hours. The F-16 was the first in Europe, and only the second in the U.S. Air Force's inventory, to cross the 10,000 flight-hour mark.
> 
> JENNIFER H. SVAN | STARS AND STRIPESPublished: April 24, 2020
> 
> An F-16 combat jet at Spangdahlem Air Base achieved a landmark 10,000 flight hours on Thursday, nearly 27 years after it rolled off the production line and began flying for the 52nd Fighter Wing.
> 
> The aircraft – Tail No. 343 – is the first Block 50 Fighting Falcon in Europe and only the second F-16 in the U.S. Air Force’s inventory to reach the historic milestone, something maintainers hailed as a testament to its durability and their dedicated labor.
> 
> An F-16 at Misawa Air Base in northern Japan hit the mark a year ago, but that jet was delivered a year earlier than Spangdahlem’s, maintainers said. It also took 26 years and 11 months to reach 10,000 hours – two months longer than No. 343.
> 
> “It takes a lot of work and a lot of diligence and a lot of very thorough inspections to keep (the aircraft) safe and ready to fly,” said Senior Master Sgt. Andrew Yates of the 480th Aircraft Maintenance Unit at Spangdahlem.
> 
> “The plane’s been flying since before about 75% of the people in this building were even born – definitely before any of us even joined the military,” he said.
> 
> Both are true for 1st Lt. Christina Nunley, 25, the assistant officer in charge for the 480th AMU.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. Air Force Col. Jason Hokaj, 52nd Fighter Wing vice commander, prepares for takeoff in aircraft 343, an F-16 Fighting Falcon, at Spangdahlem Air Base, Germany, April 23, 2020. Later that day, Hokaj's aircraft passed the 10,000 flight hours milestone.
> KYLE COPE/U.S. AIR FORCE
> 
> “This aircraft has been at Spangdahlem longer than I have been alive,” she said. “Obviously, there are struggles that come with having an older aircraft, but the history behind it is a huge motivating factor and it’s something that we take a lot of pride in.”
> 
> Chief Master Sgt. Chris Yager, 45, is part of that history. His first assignment out of tech school in 1997 was at Spangdahlem, where he worked on the jet and saw it reach 2,000 flight hours.
> 
> Back then, “there were those old crusty guys that were out there training me how to work on aircraft and sometimes I wondered why they were training me the way they were,” said Yager, the 52nd Maintenance Group superintendent.
> 
> With Thursday’s milestone, Yager said he sees “the fruits of that labor.”
> 
> Keeping No. 343 airworthy involved about 190,000 hours of work by ground crews, maintainers said. The F-16 on average requires 19 hours of maintenance for every hour of flying time – a figure that includes thorough inspections, refueling and basic maintenance such as changing tires and oil.
> 
> The wing’s vice commander, Col. Jason Hokaj, took the jet up Thursday afternoon for less than an hour to reached the milestone. Base firefighters hosed down the aircraft as it taxied down the flightline after landing.
> 
> “This is such an amazing event to be part of,” Hokaj said in a statement. “To think about the amount of hands and minds used to get here, to keep this machine flying, it’s a testament to the professionalism of the 52nd Maintenance Group.”
> 
> 
> 
> The Lockheed Martin Block 50 F-16s that the 480th Fighter Squadron flies were initially designed to last 8,000 flight hours, Yates said. But a series of upgrades has kept many of them going past that mark, he said.
> 
> Yager likened the F-16 to the Air Force’s Cold War-era B-52 bomber, which is still in service after more than 50 years.
> 
> “It was only designed for so many hours but it keeps going and going,” he said.
> 
> Lockheed Martin’s F-35A Lightning II is the planned replacement for the F-16 across the service, but due to delays in the program, the F-16s are expected to receive service-life extension upgrades to keep them airworthy until 2048 and beyond.
> 
> No. 343 was part of the 480th’s deployment for Operation Inherent Resolve to Iraq and Syria in 2016, when the squadron broke a record for number of munitions dropped by an F-16 unit within a six-month period.
> 
> “It’s just been a good, durable aircraft,” Yates said. “There’s a lot of superstition in the maintenance community – rubbing the bellies and certain things – but really, the biggest reason is … making sure all the required inspections for this aircraft are complied with.”
> 
> _svan.jennifer@stripes.com
> Twitter: @stripesktown_


How many its parts have been replaced?


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## ziaulislam

LKJ86 said:


> How many its parts have been replaced?


pretty sure F!6 will be eligble for 12,000 hours within structural upgrades that would come at a fraction of cost.
i think USAF will extend the f16 till 2040 while other countries will operate for next 50 years since new f16s are still on order each having 12,000 hours from get go

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## Falcon26

StormBreaker said:


> However,
> 
> One thing that makes me curious, most probably because of my lack of understanding on the legalities involved in the CSF regards, Is USA really bound to pay CSF to PAK and that not doing so would actually have some problems for USA in the international arena ? They have halted CSF for a long time, Who is forcing them to pay CSF if that is the case ?
> 
> @Dazzler @Blacklight @dbc @Socra
> 
> I can think of only you people who might answer my question or maybe not because not everyone can !!
> 
> In short, I know the answer is not as simple as Afghan peace deal But my curiosity is whether is it like this “Eventually you should pay liable CSF funds to Pakistan, Otherwise”, What is after “Otherwise” ?



CSF conditions simply state that the pentagon and White House have to verify that Pakistan is cooperating positively. That’s all it takes.

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## gangsta_rap

Falcon26 said:


> CSF conditions simply state that the pentagon and White House have to verify that Pakistan is cooperating positively. That’s all it takes.


Where does congress fit into this?


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## mingle

TsAr said:


> everyone has the right to their own viewpoint....


Agree with You

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## cloud4000

StormBreaker said:


> One thing that makes me curious, most probably because of my lack of understanding on the legalities involved in the CSF regards, Is USA really bound to pay CSF to PAK and that not doing so would actually have some problems for USA in the international arena ? They have halted CSF for a long time, Who is forcing them to pay CSF if that is the case ?



No, US is not bound to pay Pakistan on CSF. Pakistan submits claims for CSF to US, who either accepts them or rejects them on an individual basis. I know the figure is between $6-$12 billion of claims depending on the source. As far as I know, there has been no legalities involved otherwise Pakistan would have done something by now.


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## Falcon26

Angry Easterling said:


> Where does congress fit into this?



Congress authorizes the budget and all payments and their condition is that White House and Pentagon certify that Pakistan is in compliance.

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## Trailer23

Maybe not right now. But eventually..., 2 Years, 5 Years, 10 Years - whatever. Pakistan will be in a position to say, _"What's in it for us?"_. It may not relate to the F-16, but it'll happen. Everyone knows it'll happen, the only question is..., when?

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Trailer23 said:


> Maybe not right now. But eventually..., 2 Years, 5 Years, 10 Years - whatever. Pakistan will be in a position to say, _*"What's in it for us?"*_. It may not relate to the F-16, but it'll happen. Everyone knows it'll happen, the only question is..., when?


This is assuming all of our decision makers actually think and care about national interest. Sorry to say this, but we Pakistanis are OK doing things 'because it's a job,' not because it's the cause/ideology.

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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This is assuming all of our decision makers actually think and care about national interest. Sorry to say this, but we Pakistanis are OK doing things 'because it's a job,' not because it's the cause/ideology.


Sometimes I think, we are the only people on the planet to have govts that work against us.

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## StormBreaker

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This is assuming all of our decision makers actually think and care about national interest. Sorry to say this, but we Pakistanis are OK doing things 'because it's a job,' not because it's the cause/ideology.


That’s the root cause of unprofessional and non serious attitude bro.

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## Blacklight

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 627215


@ghazi52 Meet your military twin

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## StormBreaker

Blacklight said:


> @ghazi52 Meet your military twin




2 bots

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blacklight said:


> Sometimes I think, we are the only people on the planet to have govts that work against us.


There are individuals like that, sure, but the 'group' as a whole just wants to get by to the next day. Folks are simply too tired, distraught, demoralized, etc to act beyond the bare minimum expected of them.

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## Dazzler



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## Blacklight

Dazzler said:


>


Brother, Which blk? Wing tips have Aim-120's?

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## StormBreaker

Blacklight said:


> Brother, Which blk? Wing tips have Aim-120's?


That seems like Griffins, If i am not wrong, Griffins use MLU’ed F-16s, this is an AM most probably.



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There are individuals like that, sure, but the 'group' as a whole just wants to get by to the next day. Folks are simply too tired, distraught, demoralized, etc to act beyond the bare minimum expected of them.


You are speaking your heart out, This feeling, I can relate to it mentally, When the world seems all wrong and messed up, The encouragement and moral seems too low to even try.

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## ZedZeeshan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> This is assuming all of our decision makers actually think and care about national interest. Sorry to say this, but we Pakistanis are OK doing things 'because it's a job,' not because it's the cause/ideology.


No1 becomes a decision maker in a day or 2. they get this status after a long career not through blogging.. you just do what your doing..!


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## mshan44



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## Dazzler

Blacklight said:


> Brother, Which blk? Wing tips have Aim-120's?


15 emlu

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ZedZeeshan said:


> No1 becomes a decision maker in a day or 2. they get this status after a long career not through blogging.. you just do what your doing..!


Yep they had a long and nice career on the public's dime, which makes them accountable to the public and obliges them to answer questions (albeit from those who show understanding of the issue at hand).

When he was khalifa, Umar bin Khattab RA was given nice robes by his son, but when some of the Sahana noticed, they demanded Umar RA tell them how he got those robes. Umar RA said his son gave them, and he added his son got them as part of the spoils.

Accountability isn't key, and it should come from the outside the institution. It's meant to probe apparent holes and understand why mistakes were made so that they don't happen again.

If we had a culture of accountability, we would be an Asian Tiger. Instead, we're treated as the village idiot. And unfortunately, we can't ask our career decision makers why or how the heck we ended up this way.

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## ZedZeeshan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep they had a long and nice career on the public's dime, which makes them accountable to the public and obliges them to answer questions (albeit from those who show understanding of the issue at hand).
> 
> When he was khalifa, Umar bin Khattab RA was given nice robes by his son, but when some of the Sahana noticed, they demanded Umar RA tell them how he got those robes. Umar RA said his son gave them, and he added his son got them as part of the spoils.
> 
> Accountability isn't key, and it should come from the outside the institution. It's meant to probe apparent holes and understand why mistakes were made so that they don't happen again.
> 
> If we had a culture of accountability, we would be an Asian Tiger. Instead, we're treated as the village idiot. And unfortunately, we can't ask our career decision makers why or how the heck we ended up this way.


Bro I have all the answers of the following points you raised but I am not really good in typing nor like to spend time. I just read and very rarely comment.. 
Points you raised my answer is ( Dil Khush Rakhney ko Galib Yea kheyal acha hai.).


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ZedZeeshan said:


> Bro I have all the answers of the following points you raised but I am not really good in typing nor like to spend time. I just read and very rarely comment..
> Points you raised my answer is ( Dil Khush Rakhney ko Galib Yea kheyal acha hai.).


Bro, anyone can have 'answers' for anything, but did I say something factually or morally wrong?

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep they had a long and nice career on the public's dime, which makes them accountable to the public and obliges them to answer questions (albeit from those who show understanding of the issue at hand).
> 
> When he was khalifa, Umar bin Khattab RA was given nice robes by his son, but when some of the Sahana noticed, they demanded Umar RA tell them how he got those robes. Umar RA said his son gave them, and he added his son got them as part of the spoils.
> 
> Accountability isn't key, and it should come from the outside the institution. It's meant to probe apparent holes and understand why mistakes were made so that they don't happen again.
> 
> If we had a culture of accountability, we would be an Asian Tiger. Instead, we're treated as the village idiot. And unfortunately, we can't ask our career decision-makers why or how the heck we ended up this way.


i think your jumping ahead of yourself...Pakistani society hasn't even passed the line to figure it should happen or not..we still believe accountability shouldn't happen..once we pass that line than we will need to figure out how and why...
this is especially true in rich elite, doctors, judges, media personnel, and military..
for example, I have rarely seen an honest doctor in my 7 years of carrier in medicine.. I doubt anyone can be honest in such a setting...

I have rarely seen a judge that doesn't take his commission or even the registrar to judge..you can check any registrar to judge despite being a grade 17 officer(sometimes grade 16) his income reflects in millions..in all my relative cases in judiciary we have paid bribes..bribes to get the case ahead of schedule..bribes to get cases heard, bribes to force judiciary not to postpone it without reason..this isn't wrong even for military..look at the amount of electricity stoled in pakistan...you won't find an example..not that they have to steal to survive or something. all the people who steal electricity run AC 24/7...similar police, judiciary don't need to be corrupt..you dont see police rolling in enough money in USA for example..that hardly cannot afford a house on that salary but in Pakistan, an AC/DC can have assets in billions easily..same is true for the judiciary..the true talent or what should be highly paid people either have to play the same game or leave..if someone is lucky and gets political support it will be short-lived
*
until society accepts wrong is wrong..rather than crying why me...Pakistan will not move forward..we saw how that played out recently
*

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## ZedZeeshan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Bro, anyone can have 'answers' for anything, but did I say something factually or morally wrong?


The problem with us Pakistanis is that we are morally always right( if its verbal )and practically opposite

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> i think your jumping ahead of yourself...Pakistani society hasn't even passed the line to figure it should happen or not..we still believe accountability shouldn't happen..once we pass that line than we will need to figure out how and why...
> this is especially true in rich elite, doctors, judges, media personnel, and military..
> for example, I have rarely seen an honest doctor in my 7 years of carrier in medicine.. I doubt anyone can be honest in such a setting...
> 
> I have rarely seen a judge that doesn't take his commission or even the registrar to judge..you can check any registrar to judge despite being a grade 17 officer(sometimes grade 16) his income reflects in millions..in all my relative cases in judiciary we have paid bribes..bribes to get the case ahead of schedule..bribes to get cases heard, bribes to force judiciary not to postpone it without reason..this isn't wrong even for military..look at the amount of electricity stoled in pakistan...you won't find an example..not that they have to steal to survive or something. all the people who steal electricity run AC 24/7...similar police, judiciary don't need to be corrupt..you dont see police rolling in enough money in USA for example..that hardly cannot afford a house on that salary but in Pakistan, an AC/DC can have assets in billions easily..same is true for the judiciary..the true talent or what should be highly paid people either have to play the same game or leave..if someone is lucky and gets political support it will be short-lived
> *
> until society accepts wrong is wrong..rather than crying why me...Pakistan will not move forward..we saw how that played out recently
> *


Bro that's exactly my point. There's no stomach to question these people and take them to the gutter for their wrongs. So, with such folks in charge, how much good could we realistically expect from the country?

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## ZedZeeshan

ZedZeeshan said:


> The problem with us Pakistanis is that we are morally always right( if its verbal )and practically opposite


In Pakistan every1 is right. Nawaz Shareef is right, Zardari is also right, Our media and journalist are also right, listen to bureaucracy they will give right facts and arguments, Molvis are right, listen to the views of artists they are right, Please find me a single person in Pakistan who is wrong...



Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Bro that's exactly my point. There's no stomach to question these people and take them to the gutter for their wrongs. So, with such folks in charge, how much good could we realistically expect from the country? Its situation won't change. I'm sure both of us had this discussion somewhere else 10 years ago.


Bro I wish I could talk to you face to face with the bottle of beer in my hand..!

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ZedZeeshan said:


> In Pakistan every1 is right. Nawaz Shareef is right, Zardari is also right, Our media and journalist are also right, listen to bureaucracy they will give right facts and arguments, Molvis are right, listen to the views of artists they are right, Please find me a single person in Pakistan who is wrong...
> 
> 
> Bro I wish I could talk to you face to face with the bottle of beer in my hand..!


We know they're all wrong. It's because we lack accountability that we can't use real world facts such as the condition of Larkana to skewer PPP, or the sh!t BoP situation to skewer PML-N, or the fact that Molvis sit in league with corrupt politicians to skewer them, etc. There's no mechanism to remove wrong people from positions of authority -- here we are bickering with one another, and they get away free. Basically.

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## ZedZeeshan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We know they're all wrong. It's because we lack accountability that we can't use real world facts such as the condition of Larkana to skewer PPP, or the sh!t BoP situation to skewer PML-N, or the fact that Molvis sit in league with corrupt politicians to skewer them, etc. There's no mechanism to remove wrong people from positions of authority -- here we are bickering with one another, and they get away free. Basically.


Send me a private msg if anytime you plan to visit Dubai


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ZedZeeshan said:


> Send me a private msg if anytime you plan to visit Dubai


Bro iA Nov if COVID settles down. On the way to Karachi for IDEAS 2020 (if it isn't cancelled).

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## StormBreaker

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Bro iA Nov if COVID settles down. On the way to Karachi for IDEAS 2020 (if it isn't cancelled).


Do you think IDEAS will happen this year ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

StormBreaker said:


> Do you think IDEAS will happen this year ?


I doubt it, but they might do a restricted setting with only officials and pre-screened media people.

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## ZedZeeshan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Bro iA Nov if COVID settles down. On the way to Karachi for IDEAS 2020 (if it isn't cancelled).


sure let me know we can spend couple of hours at a nice bar..

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## Raider 21

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2533750500209735

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## Armchair

Just to bring the discussion back to F-16s, is Pakistan even trying to lobby for more F-16s EDA or otherwise?

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## ziaulislam

Armchair said:


> Just to bring the discussion back to F-16s, is Pakistan even trying to lobby for more F-16s EDA or otherwise?


Difficult to say...but if it is..its doing a terroble job...i would have expected that an approval for second hand f16 would have been possible from third country

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## Trailer23

Knuckles said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2533750500209735


Thanks @Knuckles for the vid/material.

I might pick a second from this clip for my upcoming edit. But not too crazy 'bout HUGE logo on the top and Quality is pretty crap.

I'll also wait, maybe someone else might upload a better version within a week.

@Hodor


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## Trailer23

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> On the way to Karachi for IDEAS 2020 (if it isn't cancelled).


Former (F-16) Chief Test Pilot who tested the F-16 Conformal Aerial Refueling Tank System (CARTS) is expected to be there with a F-16 Simulator. Not sure which one.

This information is based on our interaction at last years Dubai Air show. However, with all that's going on with Covid-19 - I doubt he'll be making that trip.

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## mshan44



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## mshan44



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## mshan44



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## alikazmi007

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 628093



I case if you are wondering what kind of opaque liquid in those glassed being presented to them right before the flights, my strong guess is "very sweet drink", high in sugars. Fighter Pilots take "sweets" right before a sortie to keep their blood sugar levels high/optimum as low blood sugar has adverse effects on the pilot's decision making/performance.

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## Apex

alikazmi007 said:


> I case if you are wondering what kind of opaque liquid in those glassed being presented to them right before the flights, my strong guess is "very sweet drink", high in sugars. Fighter Pilots take "sweets" right before a sortie to keep their blood sugar levels high/optimum as low blood sugar has adverse effects on the pilot's decision making/performance.


Not only sweets but there is full 3 course meal.


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## alikazmi007

Apex said:


> Not only sweets but there is full 3 course meal.



@Apex, @Windjammer, Totally makes sense right, take our dear friend Abhinandon for an example, had a big veggie meal at his place, did some fancy flying .... we shared our dogfighting mantra with him a lil bit....a few minutes later, slurped a sugary cup of Tea at our place .....! Dude was at the seventh heaven.....

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## ziaulislam

C4iSR: Air
*USAF releases M7.2+ upgrade to more than 600 F-16s*
*Gareth Jennings, London* - Jane's International Defence Review
28 April 2020
Follow

RSS







An OFP M7.2+ standard F-16 undergoing pre-release flight trials. The USAF plans to roll out the upgrade to more than 600 of its F-16 aircraft. Source: US Air Force
The US Air Force (USAF) has released the latest software and hardware upgrade planned for more than 600 of its Lockheed Martin F-16 Fighting Falcon combat aircraft, the service disclosed on 28 April.

The Operational Flight Program (OFP) M-series 7.2+ upgrade, earmarked for retrofit to current Block 40/42/50/52 F-16s, was released in April following a USD455 million development programme led by the F-16 System Program Office (SPO) located at both Hill Air Force Base (AFB) in Utah and Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio.

As noted by the USAF, OFP M7.2+ adds 42 major capability enhancements onto older model F-16s, including the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-83 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar (deemed to be the top priority for Northern Command [USNORTHCOM]), the ability to employ the Lockheed Martin AGM-158B Joint Air-To-Surface Standoff Missile Extended Range (JASSM-ER) and latest variant Raytheon AIM-120D Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM).

The F-16 SPO, the 309th Software Engineering Group (SWEG), the OFP Combined Test Force (CTF) including the Air Force Test Center Developmental Test, 53 Wing Operational Test, and the Air National Guard Air Force Reserve Test Center are partnered to develop and field software capability upgrades, the air force said.

OFP M7.2+ has been a totally in-house development for the USAF, with the OFP CTF located at Eglin AFB in Florida conducting more than 4,200 sorties and 4,600 flight hours, including participation in the 2019 Northern Edge Exercise.

The OFP M7.2+ is part of a wider modernisation process planned for the USAF's F-16 that includes a service-life extension programme (SLEP) to extend the service lives of up to 841 Block 40-52 F-16C/D aircraft from the current 8,000 hours to nearly 14,000 hours

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## Adam_Khan



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## Pakistani Fighter

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I was being sarcastic. In 99% of cases, if there's a deal, we'll know about it from official channels first -- like gov't officials, state disclosures (e.g., DSCA), or credible journalists (who will name who they heard it from).
> 
> The stuff on forums is rarely a lock, and more often than not, we end up with people angry why the rumoured deal never went through, and then they concoct other stories (like how China told IK Pak can get anything, and IK said we want to pay for them -- Lol), and not accept that the rumour wasn't accurate.
> 
> I believe Khafee is telling the truth based on what he was told or heard (as is any source), but as you go up the chain on unofficial news, it's rarely firm info. You should hear something from at least 2-3 sources before having confidence in it. I'm actually sitting on info I recently heard from 2 different people, but will still wait for an official statement before spilling it (don't worry it's not related to F-16s).


Who knows. We 'Secretly' Got VT-4s

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## ziaulislam

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Who knows. We 'Secretly' Got VT-4s


thats what i say, we dont know of any Pakistani deals till they are confirmed from an outside source..
all we know that PAF is interested and environment seems to be suitable

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> Who knows. We 'Secretly' Got VT-4s


We actually got 3-4 different people confirm the news first though. On this forum alone, there's @Ark_Angel and @PAR 5 , while the Chinese side had 1-2 people of their own. My criteria is always 3 different people with a track record of true news.

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## mingle

Trailer23 said:


> Former (F-16) Chief Test Pilot who tested the F-16 Conformal Aerial Refueling Tank System (CARTS) is expected to be there with a F-16 Simulator. Not sure which one.
> 
> This information is based on our interaction at last years Dubai Air show. However, with all that's going on with Covid-19 - I doubt he'll be making that trip.


That's a news from LM


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## Trailer23

mingle said:


> That's a news from LM


Well, not to get too overly excited 'bout it.

Look the way I see it, Lockheed Martin or any other Defense Contractor wants business. Money Talks. Everyone will agree to that bit.

Now if LM gets the business directly from a Country or via DoD are minor details. At the end of the day, they just want the Cash to flow into their Bank Account.

This former Test Pilot did say that he definitely had plans to attend IDEAS 2020 and was a taking Simulator* with him.

*Since the Air Show had 02 of them. I can't fabricate something I do not know.
-One was the [hidden] Block 70/72.
-The other one seemed like that basic.

For all we know, he may be sent over there to pitch just the Simulator.

Now..., based on the present situation relating to Covid-19, I have my doubts if we should expect anything, let alone the IDEAS 2020 event later this year.

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## ali_raza

mingle said:


> That's a news from LM


this guy is set to be in ideas 2020

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## Yasser76

Trailer23 said:


> Well, not to get too overly excited 'bout it.
> 
> Look the way I see it, Lockheed Martin or any other Defense Contractor wants business. Money Talks. Everyone will agree to that bit.
> 
> Now if LM gets the business directly from a Country or via DoD are minor details. At the end of the day, they just want the Cash to flow into their Bank Account.
> 
> This former Test Pilot did say that he definitely had plans to attend IDEAS 2020 and was a taking Simulator* with him.
> 
> *Since the Air Show had 02 of them. I can't fabricate something I do not know.
> -One was the [hidden] Block 70/72.
> -The other one seemed like that basic.
> 
> For all we know, he may be sent over there to pitch just the Simulator.
> 
> Now..., based on the present situation relating to Covid-19, I have my doubts if we should expect anything, let alone the IDEAS 2020 event later this year.




I doubt it, LM does not make simulators, of the LM Test pilot is working for CAE or Link then you may be right, but PAF already has 2 full scale simulators. If he working for LM then discussion will certainly be on V version or upgrade to it. Now that Tawain has it US not worried about this tech falling into Chinese hands

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## TsAr

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> We actually got 3-4 different people confirm the news first though. On this forum alone, there's @Ark_Angel and @PAR 5 , while the Chinese side had 1-2 people of their own. My criteria is always 3 different people with a track record of true news.


Bilal you also had a news to share?

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## mingle

TsAr said:


> Bilal you also had a news to share?


I believe yes he does??


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## Raider 21

Yasser76 said:


> I doubt it, LM does not make simulators, of the LM Test pilot is working for CAE or Link then you may be right, but PAF already has 2 full scale simulators. If he working for LM then discussion will certainly be on V version or upgrade to it. Now that Tawain has it US not worried about this tech falling into Chinese hands


Probably L3 for F-16s. If it was CAE I would have known, I work there. The LM test pilot is working for LM, independent of the simulation companies.

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## mshan44



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## mshan44



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## araz

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 629129


Undoubtedly one of the most beautiful platforms ever built. I cant think ofa more beautiful sight than an F16 flying past or better still taking off.
A


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## Syed1.

araz said:


> Undoubtedly one of the most beautiful platforms ever built. I cant think ofa more beautiful sight than an F16 flying past or better still taking off.
> A


Please watch vids of F-22, we in Pakistan love the Viper but honestly it is quite an old platform now.

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16A-ADF-Fighting-Falcon/2698

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## araz

Syed1. said:


> Please watch vids of F-22, we in Pakistan love the Viper but honestly it is quite an old platform now.


I am talking of form and aesthetics. I dont think the 22 has quite the mass appeal as does the 16.
A

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## hassan1



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## DrWatson775

araz said:


> I am talking of form and aesthetics. I dont think the 22 has quite the mass appeal as does the 16.



The PAF roundel on the F16 has a lot to do with the appeal too… . for me.

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## Witcher

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/fli...missile-lock-from-pakistani-f-16-three-times/


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## airomerix

F-16C/D Block 52s at Nellis.

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## Raider 21

airomerix said:


> F-16C/D Block 52s at Nellis.
> 
> View attachment 629665
> View attachment 629666
> View attachment 629667
> View attachment 629668
> View attachment 629669
> View attachment 629670
> View attachment 629671
> View attachment 629672
> View attachment 629673
> View attachment 629674


These guys had a ball of a time there. Great share !!!

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## Bossman

Syed1. said:


> Please watch vids of F-22, we in Pakistan love the Viper but honestly it is quite an old platform now.


So what should we be watching, videos of F-22? We have no issues with the Americans, our fight is with the Indians and to best of my knowledge Indian don’t have F-22s. And do you think that people on this forum already don’t know what you are telling them? This is a Pakistan Defense Forum and not an aviation forum. You want vids of F-22, I will recommend other sites. Stop showing your stupidity here.


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## Syed1.

Bossman said:


> So what should we be watching, videos of F-22? We have no issues with the Americans, our fight is with the Indians and to best of my knowledge Indian don’t have F-22s. And do you think that people on this forum already don’t know what you are telling them? This is a Pakistan Defense Forum and not an aviation forum. You want vids of F-22, I will recommend other sites. Stop showing your stupidity here.


Not sure why you got your panties in a twist over my post. You have anger management issues son.

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## Danish Moazzam

To me F-16 Are beautiful but not the newer block with the odd spine, it is clearly an aesthetic afterthought.

The Early Block block 15 that is one S3xy plane. In terms of visual and appearance the Rafale is a beautiful looking aircraft. in sigle engine the grippen is also a beautiful aircraft.

So in my ranking in terms of Looks alone (Currently in production)

1. Grippen (in single Engine)
1. Rafale (twin Engine)
2. F-22
3. F-16 Newer gen
4. Jeff used to look ugly and odd in the early days, but now it has started to become more and more appealing.

Personal opinion


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## Trailer23

Danish Moazzam said:


> So in my ranking in terms of Looks alone (*Currently in production*)
> 
> 1. Grippen (in single Engine)
> 1. Rafale (twin Engine)
> 2. F-22
> 3. F-16 Newer gen
> 4. Jeff used to look ugly and odd in the early days, but now it has started to become more and more appealing.


Seems like a fair list - in terms of opinion, ofcourse.

Although, you ranked the Gripen & Rafale both at #1. And secondly, the F-22 (Raptor) isn't currently in production.

The F-22 went out of production back in 2011 & Congress does not have any plans of reviving that project again. You could list the F-35 (JSF/Lighting) in its place. Its just a bulkier version of the Raptor.

I would personally swap that F-16 with the Gripen - in a heartbeat. Yeah sure the Rafale is nice looking jet too & highly capable. But, nothing beats the F-16 in the 4th Generation category.

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## Danish Moazzam

Trailer23 said:


> Seems like a fair list - in terms of opinion, ofcourse.
> 
> Although, you ranked the Gripen & Rafale both at #1. And secondly, the F-22 (Raptor) isn't currently in production.
> 
> The F-22 went out of production back in 2011 & Congress does not have any plans of reviving that project again. You could list the F-35 (JSF/Lighting) in its place. Its just a bulkier version of the Raptor.
> 
> I would personally swap that F-16 with the Gripen - in a heartbeat. Yeah sure the Rafale is nice looking jet too & highly capable. But, nothing beats the F-16 in the 4th Generation category.



oops sorry then Raptor Out, F-35 is pretty but at times it looks like a pregnant toad(no offence) 

Both grippen and Rafale because single engine and double engine. Cnat really choose one from the other.

F-16 blk-15 would have been number one but the newer block with the odd spine does not look good.


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## Aadi_1591

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In theory, yes, the PAF can pursue used F-16s. Pakistan is (on paper) a Major Non-NATO Ally (MNNA) and can request access to mothballed ex-US equipment, and only pay for refurbishing them (under the Excess Defence Articles) program.
> 
> But when it comes to Pakistan, the theory doesn't apply.
> 
> The US isn't in the mood to help Pakistan get militarily stronger (as that'd concern India, which the US is working to get on board to help contain China).
> 
> The US wants normalization of ties between India and Pakistan (read: for India to get what it wants so that it can focus on China ... aka de-fang Pakistan).
> 
> The US is not going to de-fang Pakistan, but it doesn't want to sharpen those fangs either -- unless now India becomes a threat to the US.
> 
> That latter issue is at play from a policy standpoint, which has made getting used US equipment difficult for Pakistan. It's not just the F-16s, but also old helicopters, C-130s, old frigates, etc, you name it.
> 
> TLDR: The PAF is on everyone's sh!t list, more so than even the Pak Army or Pak Navy. Basically, air power is a strategic asset, especially if you have offensively capable assets and the freedom to equip, configure and deploy them at will.
> 
> And Pakistan is currently in a situation where it is an indirect threat to US interests (i.e., diverting India's attention away from China). The US will deny us that asset.
> 
> So, the only way to break from that is to (1) structurally transform your economy and get a miracle in your name so that you can outspend India on defence and/or (2) get solutions of your own like Project AZM.


cant wait to see your face when 36 new vipers block72 start landing and cherry on top 9 c130, 20 used f16 and 12 zulus as well are coming

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## mingle

Aadi_1591 said:


> cant wait to see your face when 36 new vipers block72 start landing and cherry on top 9 c130, 20 used f16 and 12 zulus as well are coming


It's not 72 its Blk70 with GE engines single seat.

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## Viper27

Aadi_1591 said:


> cant wait to see your face when 36 new vipers block72 start landing and cherry on top 9 c130, 20 used f16 and 12 zulus as well are coming



36 new, 20 Old, 9 C-130s... kuch zaida nai hogaya?

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## Scorpiooo

Aadi_1591 said:


> cant wait to see your face when 36 new vipers block72 start landing and cherry on top 9 c130, 20 used f16 and 12 zulus as well are coming


Lets hope its materialized in actual

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In theory, yes, the PAF can pursue used F-16s. Pakistan is (on paper) a Major Non-NATO Ally (MNNA) and can request access to mothballed ex-US equipment, and only pay for refurbishing them (under the Excess Defence Articles) program.
> 
> But when it comes to Pakistan, the theory doesn't apply.
> 
> The US isn't in the mood to help Pakistan get militarily stronger (as that'd concern India, which the US is working to get on board to help contain China).
> 
> The US wants normalization of ties between India and Pakistan (read: for India to get what it wants so that it can focus on China ... aka de-fang Pakistan).
> 
> The US is not going to de-fang Pakistan, but it doesn't want to sharpen those fangs either -- unless now India becomes a threat to the US.
> 
> That latter issue is at play from a policy standpoint, which has made getting used US equipment difficult for Pakistan. It's not just the F-16s, but also old helicopters, C-130s, old frigates, etc, you name it.
> 
> TLDR: The PAF is on everyone's sh!t list, more so than even the Pak Army or Pak Navy. Basically, air power is a strategic asset, especially if you have offensively capable assets and the freedom to equip, configure and deploy them at will.
> 
> And Pakistan is currently in a situation where it is an indirect threat to US interests (i.e., diverting India's attention away from China). The US will deny us that asset.
> 
> So, the only way to break from that is to (1) structurally transform your economy and get a miracle in your name so that you can outspend India on defence and/or (2) get solutions of your own like Project AZM.


Vey true but second group also states that by blocking everything Pakistan will simply get everything from china and that is a more dangerous situation ..
This isnt the 1990s to early 2000s. China now has an alternative to every piece of USA hardware ..
Usa doesnt want such a big country to completely slip into chinese hand. In the long run that would Be a bigger headache ..

So usa might balance stuff out..provide some equipment and hold other.

This will also depend on how hard does India lobby ..traditionally they lobby even against body armour and mine resistance vehicles !!

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## Haris Ali2140

ziaulislam said:


> Vwey true but second group also states that by blocking everything pakistan will simply get everything from china and that is more dangerous situation ..
> Tgis isnt the 1990s to early 2000s. China now has alternative to every piece of usa hardware ..
> Usa doesnt want such a big country to completely slip into chinese hand. In the long run that wout
> Be a bigger headache ..
> 
> So usa might balance stuff out..provide some equipment and hold other..
> 
> This will also depend how hard does india lobby ..traditionally they lobby even against body armour and mine resistance vechiles !!



But US also wants India to focus more on China then Pakistan. Every piece of hardware sold to Pakistan can bridge the gap between Pakistan and India, even older blks of F-16s.

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## ziaulislam

w-r-t to corona i believe the chances have increased..so with the current polls situation..American companies will be lobbying for jobs, trump would want swift victory in Afghanistan as his approval ratings are all-time low....all of these are may result in drastic changes in foreign policy ..if nothing changes trump will not be looking at a second term

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## The Raven

Aadi_1591 said:


> cant wait to see your face when 36 new vipers block72 start landing and cherry on top 9 c130, 20 used f16 and 12 zulus as well are coming



Too many wet dreams.


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## Blacklight

Haris Ali2140 said:


> But US also wants India to focus more on China then Pakistan.* Every piece of hardware sold to Pakistan *can bridge the gap between Pakistan and India, even older blks of F-16s.


This would also allow India to not get into unnecessary skirmishes / war with Pakistan, and focus on capability building.

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## MastanKhan

Haris Ali2140 said:


> But US also wants India to focus more on China then Pakistan. Every piece of hardware sold to Pakistan can bridge the gap between Pakistan and India, even older blks of F-16s.



Hi,

F-16 procurement is next to impossible---.

Taking indian's attention away from pakistan towards china is inherently impossible---can't happen---won't happen---will never happen---.

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## Blacklight

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> F-16 procurement is next to impossible---.
> 
> Taking indian's attention away from pakistan towards china is inherently impossible---can't happen---won't happen---will never happen---.



Well lets assume that the vipers are coming. Who is going to pay for it? There is no way CSF will pay for this.

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## MastanKhan

Blacklight said:


> Well lets assume that the vipers are coming. Who is going to pay for it? There is no way CSF will pay for this.



Hi,

Well---then they are not coming---.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> Vey true but second group also states that by blocking everything Pakistan will simply get everything from china and that is a more dangerous situation ..
> This isnt the 1990s to early 2000s. China now has an alternative to every piece of USA hardware ..
> Usa doesnt want such a big country to completely slip into chinese hand. In the long run that would Be a bigger headache ..
> 
> So usa might balance stuff out..provide some equipment and hold other.
> 
> This will also depend on how hard does India lobby ..traditionally they lobby even against body armour and mine resistance vehicles !!


It depends on whether Pakistani decision-makers can make that case with their actions.

If they constantly mismanage the economy, then we'll reach a point where we can only afford China's tier-2 hardware (rather than its tier-1 products). So, that's no case for the US to change tracts; if anything, mission accomplished -- this is exactly where they want Pakistan.

On the other hand, if our leaders do a good job managing the economy (and this job falls on both the politicians and the armed forces -- the latter can have a big positive impact if it executes correctly), and we can afford buying tier-1 equipment from anywhere, and even build some locally, then yes, the US will change course.

Sadly, we're nowhere close to that point. I hate saying this, but our armed forces must decide -- is it "IN" or is it "OUT." It can't have it both ways.

You can't have DHAs, Fauji Industries, etc with all that rent-seeking and what have you without taking the stick and enforcing a proper 5-year economic plan in every province (to hell with the 18th). Bring in economists to create the plan, and force it via SEZs, SOEs, grants, low-equity state investment in the private sector, tax collection, etc.

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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> Vey true but second group also states that by blocking everything Pakistan will simply get everything from china and that is a more dangerous situation ..
> This isnt the 1990s to early 2000s. China now has an alternative to every piece of USA hardware ..
> Usa doesnt want such a big country to completely slip into chinese hand. In the long run that would Be a bigger headache ..
> 
> So usa might balance stuff out..provide some equipment and hold other.
> 
> This will also depend on how hard does India lobby ..traditionally they lobby even against body armour and mine resistance vehicles !!



Hi,

Knowing the Paf---US would just keep dangling the carrot and the Paf will wait---waiting like the fox running beside the camel waiting for his lip to fall---.

US is not stupid to say all out no---.

The moment they see Paf deviating---they will make an offer and---then pull it back---.

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## ARMalik

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Knowing the Paf---Us would just keep dangling the carrot and the Paf will wait---waiting like the fox running beside the camel waiting for his lip to fall---.
> 
> US is not stupid to say all out no---.
> 
> The moment they see Paf deviating---they will make an offer and---then pull it back---.



PAF top brass has been taken for a ride so many times by the US that it is beyond humiliation. And yet they still refuse to learn and listen. Just pathetic.

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## ali_raza

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> F-16 procurement is next to impossible---.
> 
> Taking indian's attention away from pakistan towards china is inherently impossible---can't happen---won't happen---will never happen---.


why do u think its impossible 
do u think pakistan is a lost cause for americans.



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Knowing the Paf---Us would just keep dangling the carrot and the Paf will wait---waiting like the fox running beside the camel waiting for his lip to fall---.
> 
> US is not stupid to say all out no---.
> 
> The moment they see Paf deviating---they will make an offer and---then pull it back---.


or maybe PAF lacks the skills of deal making 
they might be good at wht they do but in financial matters or critical thinking u need a cunning guy who can play ball himself

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## MastanKhan

ali_raza said:


> why do u think its impossible
> do u think pakistan is a lost cause for americans.
> 
> 
> or maybe PAF lacks the skills of deal making
> they might be good at wht they do but in financial matters or critical thinking u need a cunning guy who can play ball himself



Hi,

There is no doubt that hey are terrible at deal making---.

Pakistanis in general are very stiff and stubborn people---americans if you can make buddies with them will do wonders for you---like how they gave us nuc scientists in the 60's & 70's and then nuc program---.

Yes---pakistan is basically a lost cause---. The deal making mentality of the americans has cost the americans pakistan---.

Deal making is a habbit with them---that is who the americans are ---they don't know any different how to act and behave----. They assume that other person is a weak person if they don't know how to make a deal---.

They don't understand that it is against pakistan's culture to make deals with your friends---. You have to learn to be reasonable and accommodating---and that is that last thing an american is---and what americans think as accommodating---pakistanis think as arm twisting and subjugating---.

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## ali_raza

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is no doubt that hey are terrible at deal making---.
> 
> Pakistanis in general are very stiff and stubborn people---americans if you can make buddies with them will do wonders for you---like how they gave us nuc scientists in the 60's & 70's and then nuc program---.
> 
> Yes---pakistan is basically a lost cause---. The deal making mentality of the americans has cost the americans pakistan---.
> 
> Deal making is a habbit with them---that is who the americans are ---they don't know any different how to act and behave----. They assune that other person is a weak person if they don't know how to make a deal---.
> 
> They don't understand that it is against pakistan's culture to make deals make your friends---. You to learn to be reasonable and accomodating---and that is that last thing an american is---.


well the truth is when some guy come to america to beg for some aid.and in the next sentence start talking about billions in arm now that is not going to sit well doesn’t it.
on the other hand had the mushi or whtever after him had got FTA and some rupee stabilization which he got for 3 years i guess 
and say no to aid at all.
these 2 things would have made pakistan a trillion dollars economy by now its 20 years since 9/11

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> *F-16 procurement is next to impossible---.*
> 
> Taking indian's attention away from pakistan towards china is inherently impossible---can't happen---won't happen---will never happen---.


Not impossible lately, talks are happening. Can't say more than that. It was a lot impossible before as well. Yet somehow Vipers came, the biggest mindset was that the C/D version would never come to Pak. And it was fruitful during ops near Afghanistan and Waziristan. 

One thing though, they could've come up with a much sharper way in securing a deal, but the ultimate power lies with the Government and not PAF.

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## Trango Towers

Knuckles said:


> Not impossible lately, talks are happening. Can't say more than that. It was a lot impossible before as well. Yet somehow Vipers came, the biggest mindset was that the C/D version would never come to Pak. And it was fruitful during ops near Afghanistan and Waziristan.
> 
> One thing though, they could've come up with a much sharper way in securing a deal, but the ultimate power lies with the Government and not PAF.


Not again...
Talks happening...loool


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## Raider 21

Trango Towers said:


> Not again...
> Talks happening...loool


Yes and other platforms as well, not solely Chinese and American

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## ziaulislam

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> F-16 procurement is next to impossible---.
> 
> Taking indian's attention away from pakistan towards china is inherently impossible---can't happen---won't happen---will never happen---.[/QUOTE





Knuckles said:


> Yes and other platforms as well, not solely Chinese and American


We saw a sudden deal in 2005(that time block 52 was like next gen aircraft in south asia, we came to know that 15 yrs later) and than another deal in obama era(though scuttled)..
The time is perfect now..it all depends upon who wins the lobbying contest

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## The Raven

We can't even buy Cobra gunships, whether subsidised or using our own funds, let alone new block Vipers. At best, the only additional Vipers we could get are excess defence articles and perhaps upgraded. If the government and PAF are still pursuing new deals with the US, even after the fiasco of the Cobras and the T-129, then that says a lot about Pakistanis.

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## Cuirassier

The Raven said:


> We can't even buy Cobra gunships, whether subsidised or using our own funds, let alone new block Vipers. At best, the only additional Vipers we could get are excess defence articles and perhaps upgraded. If the government and PAF are still pursuing new deals with the US, even after the fiasco of the Cobras and the T-129, then that says a lot about Pakistanis.


We are Sheikhs


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## Blacklight

Trango Towers said:


> Ask @Khafee he started the block 70 rumour and everyone jumped on board. Now why has he disappeared? The amount of abuse I got for calling him out. Ooof. He was a chosen one ...
> By the mods. Loool


I'm in contact with him on his forum, as well as my cousins in PAF. He was right.

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## Pakistani Fighter

Blacklight said:


> was


was or is?

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## Blacklight

Syed Hammad Ahmed said:


> was or is?


Dear, both.

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## SQ8

Trango Towers said:


> Not again...
> Talks happening...loool


Talks happen all the time - whether they materialize or not is the question. My employers were in talks for a technology partnership with three firms prior to coronavirus hit - now all of those are stalled or in the backburner. Doesn’t mean we did not have a meeting, chalk up NDA’s and get initial quotes.. unfortunately the simpleton nature of interpretations of talks for online Pakistani fanboys is “Its coming tomorrow, Alhamdulillah!!”

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## The Raven

Socra said:


> Talks happen all the time - whether they materialize or not is the question. My employers were in talks for a technology partnership with three firms prior to coronavirus hit - now all of those are stalled or in the backburner. Doesn’t mean we did not have a meeting, chalk up NDA’s and get initial quotes.. unfortunately the simpleton nature of interpretations of talks for online Pakistani fanboys is “Its coming tomorrow, Alhamdulillah!!”



In this case, it's not as simple as that. The question here is why the Pak government and PAF would even be considering, let alone having talks, for further acquisitions of new Block Vipers given the history of procuring equipment from the US, as demonstrated by the recent debacle of the Cobras, the T-129, and previous attempts as securing more Vipers. I can perfectly understand the appeal, but either the Pakistanis haven't really learnt anything, or they're willing to eat more soya beans.


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## Caprxl

The Raven said:


> In this case, it's not as simple as that. The question here is why the Pak government and PAF would even be considering, let alone having talks, for further acquisitions of new Block Vipers given the history of procuring equipment from the US, as demonstrated by the recent debacle of the Cobras, the T-129, and previous attempts as securing more Vipers. I can perfectly understand the appeal, but either the Pakistanis haven't really learnt anything, or they're willing to eat more soya beans.



Maybe, CSF will be used with minute input from PAF funds, _*if*_ this is the case, a big *IF;*
then it is better than procuring any new 4/ 4.5 Gen Platform & incorporating all d infrastructure cost & man hours in training Flight Crew, Engineers & the drivers.

So Thunder, Vipers will be good while work on Azm continues.

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## SQ8

The Raven said:


> In this case, it's not as simple as that. The question here is why the Pak government and PAF would even be considering, let alone having talks, for further acquisitions of new Block Vipers given the history of procuring equipment from the US, as demonstrated by the recent debacle of the Cobras, the T-129, and previous attempts as securing more Vipers. I can perfectly understand the appeal, but either the Pakistanis haven't really learnt anything, or they're willing to eat more soya beans.



Your post answers the questions you pose. The appeal is a known, combat proven system on which we have expertise and will offer all the capabilities we need to match up to our adversary.

The issue is our reliance on external financing for FMS sales - soya beans aren’t going to come into play so long as the US wants to ensure Afghanistan doesn’t turn into an unrecognizable mess with Iranian influences in its south.

What is lacking isn’t the understanding of the risks but the right people to manage and mitigate them.

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## Trango Towers

Socra said:


> Talks happen all the time - whether they materialize or not is the question. My employers were in talks for a technology partnership with three firms prior to coronavirus hit - now all of those are stalled or in the backburner. Doesn’t mean we did not have a meeting, chalk up NDA’s and get initial quotes.. unfortunately the simpleton nature of interpretations of talks for online Pakistani fanboys is “Its coming tomorrow, Alhamdulillah!!”


I would rather no f16 come and we focus on our own money


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## The Raven

Socra said:


> Your post answers the questions you pose. The appeal is a known, combat proven system on which we have expertise and will offer all the capabilities we need to match up to our adversary.
> 
> The issue is our reliance on external financing for FMS sales - soya beans aren’t going to come into play so long as the US wants to ensure Afghanistan doesn’t turn into an unrecognizable mess with Iranian influences in its south.
> 
> What is lacking isn’t the understanding of the risks but the right people to manage and mitigate them.



Sadly, history would suggest otherwise to your assumptions. Unless there's a significant shift in posture from the US towards Pakistan, we can have all the right people, it won't make much difference. The Afghanistan card has been overplayed to death and doesn't cut much sway with the Yanks anymore and they can certainly contain the Iranians on their own....but we digress into geopolitics.

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## Viper27

ziaulislam said:


> We saw a sudden deal in 2005(that time block 52 was like next gen aircraft in south asia, we came to know that 15 yrs later) and than another deal in obama era(though scuttled)..
> The time is perfect now..it all depends upon who wins the lobbying contest



The deal in 2005 was not sudden. The negotiations on lifting sanctions for securing F-16s were extensively reported in both print and electronic media.

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## Mumm-Ra

Aadi_1591 said:


> cant wait to see your face when 36 new vipers block72 start landing and cherry on top 9 c130, 20 used f16 and 12 zulus as well are coming


knowing Pakistani establishment, I bet we all will be surprised with the final settlement. If it happens at all of course

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## SQ8

Trango Towers said:


> I would rather no f16 come and we focus on our own money


Beggars cant be choosers when it comes to modern fighting equipment.



The Raven said:


> Sadly, history would suggest otherwise to your assumptions. Unless there's a significant shift in posture from the US towards Pakistan, we can have all the right people, it won't make much difference. The Afghanistan card has been overplayed to death and doesn't cut much sway with the Yanks anymore and they can certainly contain the Iranians on their own....but we digress into geopolitics.


Depends on how you interpret history- but it would be a long argument on geopolitical,socioeconomic and statehood scenarios derailing the thread; lets agree to disagree.


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## Trango Towers

Socra said:


> Beggars cant be choosers when it comes to modern fighting equipment.
> 
> 
> Depends on how you interpret history- but it would be a long argument on geopolitical,socioeconomic and statehood scenarios derailing the thread; lets agree to disagree.


We are only beggars because every rich person in Pakistan has stolen.

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## mshan44



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## Aadi_1591

Emrald_Scorpio said:


> Lets hope its materialized in actual


wait and see

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## TsAr

Knuckles said:


> Yes and other platforms as well, not solely Chinese and American


So @Khafee was right when he said that negotiations are ongoing......

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## Caprxl

TsAr said:


> So @Khafee was right when he said that negotiations are ongoing......



Yeah, it seems he was as now Knuckles is also confirming about the talks.

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## mingle

Knuckles said:


> Yes and other platforms as well, not solely Chinese and American


Best is F16s recent standard blk 70 would be ideal for PAF let's see how much share of pie PAF will get? $62 billions are alot of money for F16s probably 250-300 can come out with this amount.



ziaulislam said:


> We saw a sudden deal in 2005(that time block 52 was like next gen aircraft in south asia, we came to know that 15 yrs later) and than another deal in obama era(though scuttled)..
> The time is perfect now..it all depends upon who wins the lobbying contest


Biggest lobby firm for Pak in USA is LM herself if they moved in along things will smooth at capital Hill and they regard Pak as old and trusted customer let's see but for sure they LM will come in for PAF.

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## Trango Towers

TsAr said:


> So @Khafee was right when he said that negotiations are ongoing......


oh come on......his baloney is still belived by you people?????



Caprxl said:


> Yeah, it seems he was as now Knuckles is also confirming about the talks.


neither Knuckles nor Khafee has provided any proof.

here let me give you an example.......I AM THE POPE.

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## mingle

Trango Towers said:


> oh come on......his baloney is still belived by you people?????
> 
> 
> neither Knuckles nor Khafee has provided any proof.
> 
> here let me give you an example.......I AM THE POPE.


What proof you required at open forum???

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## Caprxl

Trango Towers said:


> oh come on......his baloney is still belived by you people?????
> 
> 
> neither Knuckles nor Khafee has provided any proof.
> 
> here let me give you an example.......I AM THE POPE.



Hahahhaha

_Keep Happy & Smiling_

Regards,

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## TsAr

Trango Towers said:


> oh come on......his baloney is still belived by you people?????
> 
> 
> neither Knuckles nor Khafee has provided any proof.
> 
> here let me give you an example.......I AM THE POPE.


If you are expecting that you will see a signed document over a open forum then my friend you are going to be disappointed.

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## mingle

Caprxl said:


> Hahahhaha
> 
> _Keep Happy & Smiling_
> 
> Regards,


He wants letter of intent

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## Trango Towers

TsAr said:


> If you are expecting that you will see a signed document over a open forum then my friend you are going to be disappointed.


This is just gossip my dear nothing more


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## musaji

mingle said:


> Best is F16s recent standard blk 70 would be ideal for PAF let's see how much share of pie PAF will get? $62 billions are alot of money for F16s probably 250-300 can come out with this amount.
> 
> 
> Biggest lobby firm for Pak in USA is LM herself if they moved in along things will smooth at capital Hill and they regard Pak as old and trusted customer let's see but for sure they LM will come in for PAF.



US continues to refuse release of AH1z and even the engines for T-129 copters and you think they would allow latest F-16s to become available? Not going to happen until FATF is resolved and Pakistan is out of the grey list. And even then Pakistan will need to foot the entire bill as there are no collation funds. This is not happening since Pakistan has no financial capacity like ME and India to purchase billions of dollars worth of equipment at this time. You can certainly talk to LM or any weapons manufacturer. Doesn't mean they will ship to your doorstep the next day.

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## TsAr

Trango Towers said:


> This is just gossip my dear nothing more


there is some truth behind every gossip, this is a discussion forum and there is no harm in discussion.

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## Blacklight

Trango Towers said:


> here let me give you an example.......I AM THE POPE.


The Pope is gay, you know. 



TsAr said:


> So @Khafee was right when he said that negotiations are ongoing......





Caprxl said:


> Yeah, it seems he was as now Knuckles is also confirming about the talks.



Thread got locked, he got banned. Say what?



mingle said:


> He wants letter of intent



Unlike contracts, LOI & MOU's have a clause: " Subject to further negotiations OR Subject to further Terms and Conditions"

Contracts have other clauses, which can make it nil and void, like: act of God, supply chain issues, congressional /Govt clearance.

So until they land, they are not ours.

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## Trailer23

Lord knows how many days, weeks, months, years we'll (keep) contemplating on F-16's coming in.

I'll be a chacha & my kids will be finishing Collage.

[Jab anay hoengay, tou ajaengay]

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## Trango Towers

Blacklight said:


> The Pope is gay, you know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thread got locked, he got banned. Say what?
> 
> 
> 
> Unlike contracts, LOI & MOU's have a clause: " Subject to further negotiations OR Subject to further Terms and Conditions"
> 
> Contracts have other clauses, which can make it nil and void, like: act of God, supply chain issues, congressional /Govt clearance.
> 
> So until they land, they are not ours.


Well at least he is happy loool



TsAr said:


> there is some truth behind every gossip, this is a discussion forum and there is no harm in discussion.


No....rumours can be started to mislead people. Remember Khafee.


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## Caprxl

Blacklight said:


> Thread got locked, he got banned. Say what?



Well, let the Talks come to fruition, i hope we will have members whose egos are not big than their Morals & all including me be owing _Khafee_ an Apology.

Personally, i believe he said about *" talks taking place " *& as other members have now also confirmation, his charges should already be dropped.

Peace & Better Sense should prevail from both sides. 

How about if any of the concerned Mods & Khafee think about it??

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## Blacklight

Trango Towers said:


> No....rumours can be started to mislead people. Remember Khafee.


Lets not discredit someone because of your sectarian affiliation. Time is proving him right.

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## Trango Towers

Blacklight said:


> Lets not discredit someone because of your sectarian affiliation. Time is proving him right.


Sectarian ??? For Allahs sake in Ramadan stop this sectarian shit. What sect am I and what sect is he and what sect was prophet pbuh....this is truly shameful and everyone that gets into sects is pathetic

This is simply point out a man that started a 200 pages of rumours and you conclude its sectarian excellent. So show me after over 2 years how is he being shown to be right? Just one thing will do? Anything? And please dont say someone else says discussions are ongoing .I am equally saying they are NOT. Prove me otherwise. So far its seems I am correct as after 2 years not a single shread of evidence.


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## Blacklight

Trango Towers said:


> What sect am I


*Ego sect.* They worship their egos, can never eat the humble pie.

Forget what PAF has to say, even members here who have been credible in the past, are NOW accepting what he said months ago.

It is not his fault that people are clueless, and let their egos blind them. In any case, time will prove someone right.



Trango Towers said:


> . So far its seems I am correct as after 2 years not a single shread of evidence.


This has to be the most childish thing you could have said, given our relationship with the US.

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## Mentee

Jab koi block 70 ko bulay ga
Tm ko aik shaks yad ay ga 


Sorry couldn't resist the temptation

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## Trango Towers

Blacklight said:


> *Ego sect.* They worship their egos, can never eat the humble pie.
> 
> Forget what PAF has to say, even members here who have been credible in the past, are NOW accepting what he said months ago.
> 
> It is not his fault that people are clueless, and let their egos blind them. In any case, time will prove someone right.
> 
> 
> This has to be the most childish thing you could have said, given our relationship with the US.


Oh EGO is SECT...loool that's truly pathetic...how you shape shifted..

So forget what PAF says...sure who are they when you have kids talking BS. Let's listen to the BS. Are you even writing this? I am shocked

As I said and will say again....1 shred of evidence...just one. That's there are even consultations happening? 
We are both here and I will ask you again. I have not forgotten Khafee SECTARIAN EGO bs and you support for his BS. 
He clearly stated they are coming soon....its been 2 years...soon to an emirati must mean 25 years then when we will have our own project AZM

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## Blacklight

Mentee said:


> Jab koi block 70 ko bulay ga
> Tm ko aik shaks yad ay ga
> 
> 
> Sorry couldn't resist the temptation


LOL good one



Trango Towers said:


> Oh EGO is SECT...loool that's truly pathetic...how you shape shifted..
> 
> So forget what PAF says...sure who are they when you have kids talking BS. Let's listen to the BS. Are you even writing this? I am shocked
> 
> As I said and will say again....1 shred of evidence...just one. That's there are even consultations happening?
> We are both here and I will ask you again. I have not forgotten Khafee SECTARIAN EGO bs and you support for his BS.
> He clearly stated they are coming soon....its been 2 years...soon to an emirati must mean 25 years then when we will have our own project AZM


Very immature comeback. Do tell us more!


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## Mentee

Blacklight said:


> LOL good one



Sooner means close to 6 months or a year at max

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## Blacklight

Mentee said:


> Sooner means close to 6 months or a year at max


Look up when we started negotiations for the Blk 52, and when they landed. How many years?


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## Mentee

Blacklight said:


> Look up when we started negotiations for the Blk 52, and when they landed. How many years?



The breaking read sooner than later

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## Blacklight

Mentee said:


> The breaking read sooner than later


Now that things are finally moving in the right direction, and proving the nay sayers wrong, straws are desperately needed to clutch on. Oh well...

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## Caprxl

Mentee said:


> Jab koi block 70 ko bulay ga
> Tm ko aik shaks yad ay ga
> 
> 
> Sorry couldn't resist the temptation



 good one

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## Mentee

Blacklight said:


> Now that things are finally moving in the right direction, and proving the nay sayers wrong, straws are desperately needed to clutch on. Oh well...



Mr black light relax. Don't make it a matter of fighter aviation's survival. If not these Suppa handicapped block umpteenth we can certainly get the normal multi role j10c's.

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## Blacklight

Mentee said:


> Mr black light relax. Don't make it a matter of fighter aviation's survival. If not these Suppa handicapped block umpteenth we can certainly get the normal multiple role j10c's.


That angle has also been explored, and it wont be a J10.

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## Trango Towers

Blacklight said:


> LOL good one
> 
> 
> Very immature comeback. Do tell us more!


Oh you waffle with rumours and play with words (sectarian) when clearly you meant religious sects and when I call you out you resort to calling me immature...this is Ramadan for you...nice. have a good day. I got the measure of you.



musaji said:


> US continues to refuse release of AH1z and even the engines for T-129 copters and you think they would allow latest F-16s to become available? Not going to happen until FATF is resolved and Pakistan is out of the grey list. And even then Pakistan will need to foot the entire bill as there are no collation funds. This is not happening since Pakistan has no financial capacity like ME and India to purchase billions of dollars worth of equipment at this time. You can certainly talk to LM or any weapons manufacturer. Doesn't mean they will ship to your doorstep the next day.


Exactly yet people here are dreamers waffler and just love to beg. Paf has said jf17 block 3 is much more capable than block 52 but the f16 beggars or fanboys still want then because gora shaibs toys are better



Caprxl said:


> Well, let the Talks come to fruition, i hope we will have members whose egos are not big than their Morals & all including me be owing _Khafee_ an Apology.
> 
> Personally, i believe he said about *" talks taking place " *& as other members have now also confirmation, his charges should already be dropped.
> 
> Peace & Better Sense should prevail from both sides.
> 
> How about if any of the concerned Mods & Khafee think about it??


There is zero confirmation...uncle sam wont let you have zulus.
Wont let you have engine for t129 and you think will give you block 70 when they are offering manufacturing to india....wake up and smell the naswar



Trailer23 said:


> Lord knows how many days, weeks, months, years we'll (keep) contemplating on F-16's coming in.
> 
> I'll be a chacha & my kids will be finishing Collage.
> 
> [Jab anay hoengay, tou ajaengay]


Well bro....you do the right think and forget them. Accept facts and move on. Project azm inshallah will kick butt just like jf17.

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## Caprxl

Trango Towers said:


> There is zero confirmation...uncle sam wont let you have zulus.
> Wont let you have engine for t129 and you think will give you block 70 when they are offering manufacturing to india....wake up and smell the naswar



Like I said, Keep Happy & Keep Smiling, you will look Good. 

Regards,

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## Trango Towers

Caprxl said:


> Like I said, Keep Happy & Keep Smiling, you will look Good.
> 
> Regards,


Alhumdulillah a muslim always smiles and looks good.

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## The Raven

musaji said:


> US continues to refuse release of AH1z and even the engines for T-129 copters and you think they would allow latest F-16s to become available? Not going to happen until FATF is resolved and Pakistan is out of the grey list. And even then Pakistan will need to foot the entire bill as there are no collation funds. This is not happening since Pakistan has no financial capacity like ME and India to purchase billions of dollars worth of equipment at this time. You can certainly talk to LM or any weapons manufacturer. Doesn't mean they will ship to your doorstep the next day.



The people who are relying on their chachas, mamus, and imaginary friends in the armed forces seem to conveniently forget this fact. The real egos here are those who claim to have "insider knowledge" when in fact all they have is bullshit being peddled to them. Even if there are these imaginary "talks", why would someone worth their salt in the PAF release such sensitive information to a blabbermouth on a forum?!! That then leaves two possibilities - either it's bullshit, or the person releasing the information should be disciplined, take your pick.

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## Trango Towers

The Raven said:


> The people who are relying on their chachas, mamus, inbred cousins, and imaginary friends in the armed forces seem to conveniently forget this fact. The real egos here are those who claim to have "insider knowledge" when in fact all they have is bullshit being peddled to them. Even if there are these imaginary "talks", why would someone worth their salt in the PAF release such sensitive information to a blabbermouth on a forum?!! That then leaves two possibilities - either it's bullshit, or the person releasing the information should be disciplined, take your pick.


Well said

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## raazh

The main reason why Pakistan is interested and "Might" get these planes is bcz of the CSF already with the US. Even if we are asked to finance 40 to 50% of the package, its still an excellent bargain for a plane which we have infrastructure, manpower and is already integrated in our systems of system. So with numbers we have a good chance of keeping part of the fleet operational in the long run even if our relations go down with US. In the end lets say if we dont get anything even then its not a problem, no win no loss.

Ever wonder why PAF never even asks for any other US jet? Cz we know that eventually its gonna be a disaster for us in the long run.

So for all those saying amreeky maal this amreeky maal that, boys just let this sink in ur head; that the only way we can utilize this csf is via US origin stuff i.e. zulu or falcon nothing else even the jsf is of any good to us.

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## Trango Towers

raazh said:


> The main reason why Pakistan is interested and "Might" get these planes is bcz of the CSF already with the US. Even if we are asked to finance 40 to 50% of the package, its still an excellent bargain for a plane which we have infrastructure, manpower and is already integrated in our systems of system. So with numbers we have a good chance of keeping part of the fleet operational in the long run even if our relations go down with US. In the end lets say if we dont get anything even then its not a problem, no win no loss.
> 
> Ever wonder why PAF never even asks for any other US jet? Cz we know that eventually its gonna be a disaster for us in the long run.
> 
> So for all those saying amreeky maal this amreeky maal that, boys just let this sink in ur head; that the only way we can utilize this csf is via US origin stuff i.e. zulu or falcon nothing else even the jsf is of any good to us.


Zulus looool
Engines for t 129 looool
F16....looool.

All blocked and you guys still hoping. Sad ... people move on but ....


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## raazh

Trango Towers said:


> Zulus looool
> Engines for t 129 looool
> F16....looool.
> 
> All blocked and you guys still hoping. Sad ... people move on but ....



Again, thats the only way to get that CSF .. without the CSF neither PAF nor PA is interested in those deals ..

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## Trango Towers

raazh said:


> Again, thats the only way to get that CSF .. without the CSF neither PAF nor PA is interested in those deals ..


Are not coming. Accept the fact. We have been used because our rulers had no idea how to force the payments


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## mingle

Trango Towers said:


> This is just gossip my dear nothing more


Wait then


Trango Towers said:


> This is just gossip my dear nothing more


Unless there is


Trango Towers said:


> Are not coming. Accept the fact. We have been used because our rulers had no idea how to force the payments


Why not you tell them how business works??



raazh said:


> Again, thats the only way to get that CSF .. without the CSF neither PAF nor PA is interested in those deals ..


PAF will get jetts now we also know negotiations with other countries too other than China and US could be Gripen?? Or EF?? because all are desperate after COVID shock.

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## Trango Towers

mingle said:


> Wait then
> 
> Unless there is
> 
> Why not you tell them how business works??
> 
> 
> PAF will get jetts now we also know negotiations with other countries too other than China and US could be Gripen?? Or EF?? because all are desperate after COVID shock.


It seems with you business work in the following way. Pakistan gives America everything from transit routes to laying down the lives of its troops. Get called a terror state. Humiliated in a drama of OBL and then the CSF that are rightfully ours not het paid. Pakistan then get told its india that's the preferred partner in the region. Then zulus impounded. T129 engines blocked and told we have been given billions in aid when we lost 100s of billions in trade.
Now you say how business works....well it work by not giving you anything. What have you got to show for the above other than humiliation. And yet you want more. I would rather die of shame than keep begging. Project azm inshallah.

I hope you have learnt how not to do business from the above

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## mingle

Trango Towers said:


> It seems with you business work in the following way. Pakistan gives America everything from transit routes to laying down the lives of its troops. Get called a terror state. Humiliated in a drama of OBL and then the CSF that are rightfully ours not het paid. Pakistan then get told its india that's the preferred partner in the region. Then zulus impounded. T129 engines blocked and told we have been given billions in aid when we lost 100s of billions in trade.
> Now you say how business works....well it work by not giving you anything. What have you got to show for the above other than humiliation. And yet you want more. I would rather die of shame than keep begging. Project azm inshallah.
> 
> I hope you have learnt how not to do business from the above


I asked you what you suggest the way? These are same old arguments what you talking about?
America is big country we are not North Korea they still the biggest trading partner not China?
Project Azm is j31 derivative pak can buy straight from China nothing new here.


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## mshan44



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## mingle

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 631007


These babies will come Pak very soon what sleek plane US design amazing.


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## araz

Blacklight said:


> *Ego sect.* They worship their egos, can never eat the humble pie.
> 
> Forget what PAF has to say, even members here who have been credible in the past, are NOW accepting what he said months ago.
> 
> It is not his fault that people are clueless, and let their egos blind them. In any case, time will prove someone right.
> 
> 
> This has to be the most childish thing you could have said, given our relationship with the US.


Can we please stop this off topic debate and keep to the topic at hand. @Khafee is our brother and he broke a news probably a bit too early. As it happens somewhere between his breaking news and political maneouverings things got delayed. He got a bit mauled because he made it look like it was happening like yesterday. Whether it materializes or not is still up for debate. However there is a forum with an on going debate and he is not the topic at hand. So can we all concentrate on the topic and not on his credibility. Only time will prove him right or wrong. If you look at all the exclusives he has taken out on his own forum, to date none of them has proven right although there is talk ongoing. For instance he has talked of C130s landing in Pak within 2 months. He has talked of SU35 for PAF and now the J15 with folding wings. 
I say give things time and in 6 month's time find out whether the brother was right or not. 
Between talks and contract to delivery there are a thousand steps and any mishap can break a done deal. The art is to make a revelation when the real is done.
For instance a Friend of mine told me PAF was negotiationg for 12 /14 F16s. This was 2010. We eventually heard of 8F16s in 2015/16 and even that deal got scuppered.
It does not mean that the friend was right or wrong. It just means that things in aviation can change.
So let us leave this topic for the moment and concentrate on what is relevant.
A

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## Trango Towers

mingle said:


> I asked you what you suggest the way? These are same old arguments what you talking about?
> America is big country we are not North Korea they still the biggest trading partner not China?
> Project Azm is j31 derivative pak can buy straight from China nothing new here.


Oh dear....you dod not ask to suggest the way forward. J31 is not project azm derivative. Where did you get that from? More rumours?
However way forward is home made stuff with potential international collaboration where possible.


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## raazh

Trango Towers said:


> Are not coming. Accept the fact. We have been used because our rulers had no idea how to force the payments


At this moment .. USA is the sole super power; yes we cannot force those payments .. dont think we have a choice here or earlier .. if they arrive good, if not then life still goes on .. nobody except u is loosing sleep here ..

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## Trango Towers

raazh said:


> At this moment .. USA is the sole super power; yes we cannot force those payments .. dont think we have a choice here or earlier .. if they arrive good, if not then life still goes on .. nobody except u is loosing sleep here ..


Exactly.... we should move on and if we get the payments all good but if not then any future requirement by usa and there will be in afghanistan must have this payment as an advance. I lived and studied and did my business all my life in the west. They respect strength even in negotiations. Pak psyche is not like that sadly


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## raazh

Trango Towers said:


> Exactly.... we should move on and if we get the payments all good but if not then any future requirement by usa and there will be in afghanistan must have this payment as an advance. I lived and studied and did my business all my life in the west. They respect strength even in negotiations. Pak psyche is not like that sadly



Brother we, unfortunately are in no position to dictate terms of any deal vis a vis USA. I am also living abroad currently and have experience of working in Pakistani defence sector as well. Forget US origin equipment, even for other nato origin equipment too we have to go through extra ordinary obstacles.

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## Mentee

Trango Towers said:


> Paf has said jf17 block 3 is much more capable than block 52 but the f16 beggars or fanboys still want then because gora shaibs toys are better





Bro any equipment we procure from the US of a is a token of loyalty and in the present circumstances of neutrality - - - - - - -.




It has its own shine and thunder for the end user only if completely allowed to explore all its nuts and bolts. However the versions we have been getting are handicapped to say the least but it's a potent weapon for air defence purpose . Back in the early 2000 an air superiorty fighter was badly needed to bridge the gap between us and india and to get a practical know how about the merits of a truly modern war machine for accelerating the catch up for our strategic allies - - - - - - - - - - not so much now. 




One can argue that such approach could also be applied to up the ante even now but then keeping in view the pace with which that strategic ally is covering miles and where it stands now makes it pretty absurd to waste csf on buying a squadron or two of the block whatever when pak pilots have trained themselves on the much advanced platforms like f15's and Raphaels . That fund could be used to purchase Zulus and other not so always kept under the radar goodies while the extra amount needed to cover the viper purchase could very well be directed to get our hands on the j series and thunder block 3.

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## Trango Towers

raazh said:


> Brother we, unfortunately are in no position to dictate terms of any deal vis a vis USA. I am also living abroad currently and have experience of working in Pakistani defence sector as well. Forget US origin equipment, even for other nato origin equipment too we have to go through extra ordinary obstacles.


Ofcourse....no matter what we are muslim. The turks experimented. Not allowed in EU and Israel's friendship was to weaken turkey. Inshallah one day
Never lose hope. Allah will make us independent of everyone


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## TheTallGuy

Sorry Guys! As much i love to see more F-16s but real/correct/factual status is "Train has left" we will retire these F-16s when there life is over...no new F-16s or used ...we have 75 and will retire them after taking peacetime & wartime attrition.

PAF has moved on!

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## Blacklight

araz said:


> Can we please stop this off topic debate and keep to the topic at hand. @Khafee is our brother and he broke a news probably a bit too early. As it happens somewhere between his breaking news and political maneouverings things got delayed. He got a bit mauled because he made it look like it was happening like yesterday. Whether it materializes or not is still up for debate. However there is a forum with an on going debate and he is not the topic at hand. So can we all concentrate on the topic and not on his credibility. Only time will prove him right or wrong. If you look at all the exclusives he has taken out on his own forum, to date none of them has proven right although there is talk ongoing. For instance he has talked of C130s landing in Pak within 2 months. He has talked of SU35 for PAF and now the J15 with folding wings.
> I say give things time and in 6 month's time find out whether the brother was right or not.
> Between talks and contract to delivery there are a thousand steps and any mishap can break a done deal. The art is to make a revelation when the real is done.
> For instance a Friend of mine told me PAF was negotiationg for 12 /14 F16s. This was 2010. We eventually heard of 8F16s in 2015/16 and even that deal got scuppered.
> It does not mean that the friend was right or wrong. It just means that things in aviation can change.
> So let us leave this topic for the moment and concentrate on what is relevant.
> A


Very well said!!

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## Maxpane

Blacklight said:


> Very well said!!


bhai any update on j 15 and f 16 from khafee sir?

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## ali_raza

TheTallGuy said:


> Sorry Guys! As much i love to see more F-16s but real/correct/factual status is "Train has left" we will retire these F-16s when there life is over...no new F-16s or used ...we have 75 and will retire them after taking peacetime & wartime attrition.
> 
> PAF has moved on!


@Blacklight

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## Scorpiooo

*First question is with those brothers saying JF17 is better than F16 and etc*
Do you really see actual production alteast one sqr minimum of 4 to 5 year, There big no block 3 still on intial trials its already too late will be late futher .. claim will become only actual reality when these plan came and face the air. (Thander block 3 claims)
I agree these are good birds but .. still to young to gian actual confidence of PAF pilots not Babas running project or earning.

*Secondly Project AZM*
Its right now only on papers, i hope it becomes reality but still it take a dacade or dacade and half (10 to 15 year) to run prototype.. so production you can have idea ..

*Final question*
Do you think our enemy will wait for final induction of project AZM to be materialized than thay will go some misadventure untill thay will wait see 
Please wakeup.. we have enemy on our head ready for other misadventure we are discussing that will project have best way/option for few internal people self financing

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## Tomcats

Emrald_Scorpio said:


> *First question is with those brothers saying JF17 is better than F16 and etc*
> Do you really see actual production alteast one sqr minimum of 4 to 5 year, There big no block 3 still on intial trials its already too late will be late futher .. claim will become only actual reality when these plan came and face the air. (Thander block 3 claims)
> I agree these are good birds but .. still to young to gian actual confidence of PAF pilots not Babas running project or earning.
> 
> *Secondly Project AZM*
> Its right now only on papers, i hope it becomes reality but still it take a dacade or dacade and half (10 to 15 year) to run prototype.. so production you can have idea ..
> 
> *Final question*
> Do you think our enemy will wait for final induction of project AZM to be materialized than thay will go some misadventure untill thay will wait see
> Please wakeup.. we have enemy on our head ready for other misadventure we are discussing that will project have best way/option for few internal people self financing


 The JF17A block 3 is supposed to be a worthy equal to the F16 fleet we have in service, in my eyes it's a way better option than the F16 for geopolitical reasons and expenses. I mean the block 2 aircraft certainly proved it's worth during Op Swift Retort so it's also a combat proven aircraft.

As for Project Azm, it is supposed to take that long, we shouldn't rush on it and give it some time, things like these require baby steps and I'd say it's worth the effort to be able to indigenously build Next generation Aircraft as well as Drones.

P.s PAF very well knows the enemy can strike anytime, once again inshallah we will be ready to meet them and rout them again.


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## Scorpiooo

Issam said:


> The JF17A block 3 is supposed to be a worthy equal to the F16 fleet we have in service, in my eyes it's a way better option than the F16 for geopolitical reasons and expenses. *I mean the block 2 aircraft certainly proved it's worth during Op Swift Retort so it's also a combat proven aircraft *



Sir can please what actually jf done during Feb 27 except escorting them other plans, all is done by F16 and Mirage 5 along 3 with help of others

Please first understand 27 th operation in detial its participants and there role, thandars was just escorting


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## The Raven

Maxpane said:


> bhai any update on j 15 and f 16 from khafee sir?



Why would we buy a carrier based version of the Su-27?!


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## Maxpane

The Raven said:


> Why would we buy a carrier based version of the Su-27?!


thats a mystery


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## Scorpiooo

Maxpane said:


> thats a mystery


Whats if thay are on cheap rates or even near to be free with soft loan?

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## Maxpane

Scorpiooo said:


> Whats if thay are on cheap rates or even near to be free with soft loan?


bhai we cant talk here until birds land in Pakistan.


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## Trango Towers

Blacklight said:


> Very well said!!


He is a talker..j15...loool yes we have requirement for a carrier aircraft with no carrier. You want to believe him go ahead. Men who seek fame seldom tell the truth. He didnt break the news re the V70 early. He just made up a story and lit the fire and Pakistani fan boys turned it into and inferno

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## Blacklight

Trango Towers said:


> He is a talker..j15...loool yes we have requirement for a carrier aircraft with no carrier. You want to believe him go ahead. Men who seek fame seldom tell the truth. He didnt break the news re the V70 early. He just made up a story and lit the fire and Pakistani fan boys turned it into and inferno


You are such a bore. Give it a rest!

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## Trailer23

Scorpiooo said:


> *
> Sir can please what actually jf done during Feb 27 except escorting them other plans, all is done by F16 and Mirage 5 along 3 with help of others*
> 
> Please first understand 27 th operation in detial its participants and there role, thandars was just escorting


Who stated that they were only escorts? Strike Formation *Wg Cdr. Adnan* was Awarded Tamgha-e-Basalat.

Timestamped for you. Kindly watch & listen to what *Sqn Ldr. Sibtain* says and see the images shown 17:28






Here is an image from the same footage in case you missed out.





So, perhaps you should put the whole '*Escort only*' narrative to bed.

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## Scorpiooo

Trailer23 said:


> Who stated that they were only escorts? Strike Formation *Wg Cdr. Adnan* was Awarded Tamgha-e-Basalat.
> 
> Timestamped for you. Kindly watch & listen to what *Sqn Ldr. Sibtain* says and see the images shown 17:28
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an image from the same footage in case you missed out.
> 
> View attachment 631088​
> So, perhaps you should put the whole '*Escort only*' narrative to bed.


Please go to PAF


Trailer23 said:


> Who stated that they were only escorts? Strike Formation *Wg Cdr. Adnan* was Awarded Tamgha-e-Basalat.
> 
> Timestamped for you. Kindly watch & listen to what *Sqn Ldr. Sibtain* says and see the images shown 17:28
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an image from the same footage in case you missed out.
> 
> View attachment 631088​
> So, perhaps you should put the whole '*Escort only*' narrative to bed.



View attachment 631093



Trailer23 said:


> Who stated that they were only escorts? Strike Formation *Wg Cdr. Adnan* was Awarded Tamgha-e-Basalat.
> 
> Timestamped for you. Kindly watch & listen to what *Sqn Ldr. Sibtain* says and see the images shown 17:28
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an image from the same footage in case you missed out.
> 
> View attachment 631088​
> So, perhaps you should put the whole '*Escort only*' narrative to bed.



*All the main action are done by By marriage 5 and then 3 to hit targets 
Shooting of indian jet was done by F16. *

Remaining come publicity of thandars we all remember what ISPR said intially killing was by JF thunders .. later we all came to know actual story .








Trailer23 said:


> Who stated that they were only escorts? Strike Formation *Wg Cdr. Adnan* was Awarded Tamgha-e-Basalat.
> 
> Timestamped for you. Kindly watch & listen to what *Sqn Ldr. Sibtain* says and see the images shown 17:28
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an image from the same footage in case you missed out.
> 
> View attachment 631088​
> So, perhaps you should put the whole '*Escort only*' narrative to bed.


Please go to PAF


Trailer23 said:


> Who stated that they were only escorts? Strike Formation *Wg Cdr. Adnan* was Awarded Tamgha-e-Basalat.
> 
> Timestamped for you. Kindly watch & listen to what *Sqn Ldr. Sibtain* says and see the images shown 17:28
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an image from the same footage in case you missed out.
> 
> View attachment 631088​
> So, perhaps you should put the whole '*Escort only*' narrative to bed.



View attachment 631093

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## Trailer23

Scorpiooo said:


> Please go to PAF
> *All the main action are done by By marriage 5 and then 3 to hit targets
> Shooting of indian jet was done by F16. *
> 
> Remaining come publicity of thandars we all remember what ISPR said intially killing was by JF thunders .. later we all came to know actual story .


Okay, whatever you say. I suppose the Documentary by the PAF is false too, right?

There have been many who have come here in the past & got burned/schooled for attempting to prove their point.

I'm NOT gonna go  as Members & Mods take it seriously. I urge you to do the same, rookie.

There is a Topic where you can take this conversation if you need further clarification....

*27 Feb 19: PAF shot down two Indian aircrafts inside Pakistani airspace: DG ISPR*
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/27-f...fts-inside-pakistani-airspace-dg-ispr.604031/

Note: Attaching images of the Monument at Mushaf Base does not prove anything in regard to the roles of the Mirages OR JF-17, those Tails are kills of the F-16.

@waz @Side-Winder

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## Mentee

Scorpiooo said:


> First question is with those brothers saying JF17 is better than F16 and etc




Being better and advanced in Pakistani context is a relative term. A 60 or so years old Pakistani mirage would beat a Pakistani block 52 f16 in land and naval warfare hands down . Similarly a block 2 thunder takes the lead over all existing paf assets in every dimension - - - - - - - - As I said f16 and it's technical edge is now reduced to a token of loyalty /neutrality

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## airomerix

e

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## mingle

airomerix said:


> View attachment 631141
> e


Middle age man with a teenager


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## Trailer23

airomerix said:


> View attachment 631141
> e


The new Black Panthers logo/insignia looks more like a smudge.

What the hell were they thinking?

If the PAF can copy Patches, why can't they copy concepts?


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## airomerix

Trailer23 said:


> The new Black Panthers logo/insignia looks more like a smudge.
> 
> What the hell were they thinking?
> 
> If the PAF can copy Patches, why can't they copy concepts?



Man these engineers sometimes try to get creative. OC engg ko cheez pasand agye to bas kerdia kaam.

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## mshan44



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## Ahmet Pasha

Black Panthers insignia is pretty cool. It is blurry in picture. Either cuz of jet moving too fast or it's been blurred by original source.


airomerix said:


> Man these engineers sometimes try to get creative. OC engg ko cheez pasand agye to bas kerdia kaam.


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## airomerix

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Black Panthers insignia is pretty cool. It is blurry in picture. Either cuz of jet moving too fast or it's been blurred by original source.



I found this to be more tasteful.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Clear image of new onw for comparison??


airomerix said:


> I found this to be more tasteful.
> 
> View attachment 631175


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## Bigbang1983

airomerix said:


> I found this to be more tasteful.
> 
> View attachment 631175



Sorry but everytime I see it, just reminds me of an Iguana from top down.


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## mshan44



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## airomerix

Block 52 in Griffin hanger.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Ishq e F16


airomerix said:


> Block 52 in Griffin hanger.
> 
> View attachment 632158


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## Trailer23

airomerix said:


> Block 52 in Griffin hanger.
> 
> View attachment 632158


Sir, you can share the video (too) from where you got this Frame/Still  . I noticed the Thin Red Line ______

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## airomerix

Trailer23 said:


> Sir, you can share the video (too) from where you got this Frame/Still  . I noticed the Thin Red Line ______



Here you go.






It's from Chief's flypast. Someone suggested earlier on this forum that Block 52's cannot land anywhere other than Jaccoabad. So thought of giving those folks some evidence.

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## airomerix

On short final.

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## TheTallGuy

airomerix said:


> Block 52 in Griffin hanger.
> 
> View attachment 632158



what is that under the intake?


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## Imran Khan

TheTallGuy said:


> what is that under the intake?
> View attachment 632791


threat warning antenna

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## Safriz

TheTallGuy said:


> what is that under the intake?
> View attachment 632791


Hard point for pods I guess.


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## airomerix

TheTallGuy said:


> what is that under the intake?
> View attachment 632791



These pods were introduced by the U.S. Navy for their F-16Ns to increase their RCS during TOPGUN exercises. The F-16 has such a small RCS they needed a way to simulate a bigger enemy aircraft. 

So during training sorties/peacetime, F-16s fly with these pods to increase the size of the blip on the radar scope of the ground controller. The pod is hollow, nothing electronic inside. They have no connector, and the hardpoint cover stays on underneath the pod. So, no jamming or any other capabilities here if anyone is thinking that.



Imran Khan said:


> threat warning antenna
> 
> View attachment 632792



"Those diagrams are for an F-16A/B model, and most of the antennae have been relocated on the F-16C/D/CJ/CG/E/F aircraft. Specifically, the lower UHF/IFF is now between the ventrals, the forward threat warning antennae are now the "beer cans" on the leading edge flaps, near the wintip missile rails, and the lower radar threat warning antennae are now the "shark's teeth" assembly, just aft of the radome."

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1591

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## airomerix

Some classy vipers.

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## Dazzler

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1261286994979819520

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## mshan44



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## Trailer23

I know I should be posting this article in the Indian Defense Thread, but assumed someone else may have posted it there as a new topic. And for some reason - its more fun reading it here.

-------------------​





*Say Goodbye To India’s Super F-16*​*16 May, 2020*
*David Axe*




Our chances of getting a new kind of F-16 just dramatically shrank. The Indian air force recently signaled it would cancel a tender for foreign-made warplanes.

It was that contest that motivated American plane-maker Lockheed Martin to develop a unique, highly-advanced F-16 variant the company called the “F-21.”

The Indian air force in 2019 announced it would spend up to $15 billion buying 114 fighters. The plan was for the new planes to replace old MiG-21s and fly alongside European-designed Jaguars, French Mirage 2000s and Rafales, Russian MiG-29s and Su-30s and India's own indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft in what Lockheed described as "the world’s largest fighter aircraft ecosystem."

The F-21, Boeing's F/A-18E/F, the Rafale, the European Typhoon, the Swedish Gripen E and the Russian MiG-35 and Su-35 all were contenders. Indian companies would have assembled the new jets on license.

No longer. “The Indian Air Force is switching that to the LCA,” Chief of the Defense Staff Bipin Rawat said in an interview. The air force would order 83 additional Tejas on top of the 40 LCAs the service already has paid for.

Those 83 LCAs would cost $6 billion. That’s less than half what New Delhi planned to spend under the previous tender, implying that cost motivated the decision.

“The IAF is saying, I would rather take the indigenous fighter, it is good,” Rawat said.

The Indian air force in 2020 maintains just 28 fighter squadrons against a requirement for 42 squadrons. The service hopes to stand up three new units in 2020 as additional Rafales, Su-30s and LCAs arrive.




Hindustan Aeronautics’ Tejas, which first flew in 2001, is far less sophisticated than the F-21 would have been. The delta-wing, lightweight LCA can carry around 8,000 pounds of ordnance—half what an Indian Su-30MKI can haul. The Tejas also is slower and less maneuverable than India’s other foreign-made fighters are.

The F-21, by contrast, would have included technology from the company’s F-22 and F-35 stealth fighters. "The F-21 has common components and learning from Lockheed Martin’s fifth-generation F-22 and F-35 and will share a common supply chain on a variety of components," Lockheed stated on its website on the morning of Feb. 20, 2019.

A few hours later, that claim disappeared from the site. In any event, the F-21 would have been the most advanced version yet of the single-engine F-16, which flew for the first time in 1974.

The F-21 design boasted new cockpit displays, conformal fuel tanks, a large airframe spine that could accommodate communication systems or radar-jammers, fittings for towed radar decoys, a new infrared sensor and a refueling probe for use with India's Russian-made aerial tankers.

Production of the F-21 would have extended one of the world’s most successful fighter programs.

Around 2,300 of F-16s fly for more than 30 air arms, accounting for no less than four percent of all the world’s military aircraft. But even without an Indian order, Lockheed anticipates it could continue building new F-16s through 2030.

Link: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2020/05/16/say-goodbye-to-indias-super-f-16/#1339b2e83ca6

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## nomi007

Hope now USA will allow PAF to buy Bk-72

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## Ali_Baba

Given how much sensitive information Lockheed Martin has transferred to India as part of this tender process, there is really no future for the F16 Block 70/72 or the F21 in PAF.

India has successfully gathered the technical capabilities of every 4.5+ gen platform out there, and in reality this can form the basis of a set of requirements for both the Tejas and stealth programmes going forward.

India has also managed to successfuly block of 10years of weapons sales to Pakistan using this tender process and thereby degrade Pakistans military capability by more than the procured jets themselves may have had as an effect. Thankfully China grew in that time period and stopped that from happening.

There are a lot of western plane manufacturers feeling very stupid right now. The French especially since they have destroyed their military relationship with Pakistan for just 36 Rafales and a few submarines which they had built up for over 40 odd years...

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## Raider 21

Ali_Baba said:


> Given how much sensitive information Lockheed Martin has transferred to India as part of this tender process, there is really no future for the F16 Block 70/72 or the F21 in PAF.
> 
> India has successfully gathered the technical capabilities of every 4.5+ gen platform out there, and in reality this can form the basis of a set of requirements for both the Tejas and stealth programmes going forward.
> 
> India has also managed to successfuly block of 10years of weapons sales to Pakistan using this tender process and thereby degrade Pakistans military capability by more than the procured jets themselves may have had as an effect. Thankfully China grew in that time period and stopped that from happening.
> 
> There are a lot of western plane manufacturers feeling very stupid right now. The French especially since they have destroyed their military relationship with Pakistan for just 36 Rafales and a few submarines which they had built up for over 40 odd years...


On a sidenote, India has seen the F-16 as early as the 90s. Heck even their test pilots did their masters thesis at USAFTPS on the F-16.

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## Blacklight

Knuckles said:


> On a sidenote, India has seen the F-16 as early as the 90s. Heck even their text pilots did their masters thesis at USAFTPS on the F-16.


And Singapore's F16's are parked their? If not, regular exercises do take place.

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## Raider 21

Blacklight said:


> And Singapore's F16's are parked their? If not, regular exercises do take place.


Include Israelis, Omanis, Emiratis, Thai as well as Americans. Tactical exercises are different from actually diving into systems and performance handling qualities of the aircraft.

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## Blacklight

Ali_Baba said:


> Given how much sensitive information Lockheed Martin has transferred to India as part of this tender process, there is really no future for the F16 Block 70/72 or the F21 in PAF.
> 
> India has successfully gathered the technical capabilities of every 4.5+ gen platform out there, and in reality this can form the basis of a set of requirements for both the Tejas and stealth programmes going forward.
> 
> India has also managed to successfuly block of 10years of weapons sales to Pakistan using this tender process and thereby degrade Pakistans military capability by more than the procured jets themselves may have had as an effect. Thankfully China grew in that time period and stopped that from happening.
> 
> There are a lot of western plane manufacturers feeling very stupid right now. The French especially since they have destroyed their military relationship with Pakistan for just 36 Rafales and a few submarines which they had built up for over 40 odd years...


Brother, you paint a very pessimistic picture. Things are not so bleak!

Doesn't matter what they know. How that intel is used is of ultimate consequence, and we all know that

Please see this article from an Indian outlet:

*F-16 never stood a chance to be in IAF fleet. Lockheed Martin messed it up so much*
_In many ways, F-16 is a microcosm of India-US ties. Imran Khan’s meeting with Donald Trump had little role in US resuming military sales to Pakistan._
Abhijit Iyer-Mitra 30 July, 2019

If US President Donald Trump offering to mediate on the Kashmir issue wasn’t enough, he went ahead and exonerated ‘selected’ Prime Minister Imran Khan – implying that under Khan, Pakistani perfidy has stopped. To cap it all, the State Department announced a resumption of military supplies – specifically F-16 spares – to Pakistan. In many ways, the F-16 is a microcosm of India-US ties: oversell, unable to understand the other, stringing your lover along in spite of not understanding what he/she is saying, and a final rejection leading to bitterness.

Let us be clear, however, that the F-16 never stood a chance. Lockheed Martin (LM) screwed up on several issues: its primary weapon the AMRAAM; its sales pitch peddling a point the Indian Air Force (IAF) did not understand; a sales campaign that bordered on outright lies; and finally, Balakot, which proved to be the last nail in the coffin.

*Avoiding F-16 in a dogfight*
The moment India is offered the same equipment as Pakistan, you pretty much know it’s going to be rejected. Although, India had no hesitation buying the same manufacturer’s C-130 transport aircraft, which Pakistan also operates. However, the IAF, instead of looking at how its aircraft perform in combat situations, seems to be obsessed about fitting them with one particular missile: the European Meteor. The Meteor missile’s long range outclasses the F-16’s primary long-range air-to air weapon, the AMRAAM.

It is in fact a tribute to the F-16’s potency that the IAF wants to avoid engaging it in a dogfight and would prefer to take it out at longer ranges. In effect, it wasn’t the F-16 that irritated the IAF so much as it was the AMRAAM – after all, no matter how advanced an F-16 India was being offered, if the missiles were going to be the same as Pakistan’s (AMRAAM), the electronics differential of the launch platform wasn’t going to be much use to India.

*F-16, upgraded to F-21*
To counter this perception, LM had a clear case that the F-16 being sold to India (the Block 70 variant, since renamed F-21) was a whole different beast from the Block 50 that Pakistan has. Beyond the superficial exterior resemblance, there’s about 40 per cent difference in terms of equipment; and the electronics derive much from the F-35’s heavily network centric architecture. As such, the F-21s are a generation ahead from anything on Pakistan’s F-16 that could be better in terms of being able to see further, ‘talk to’ other networked assets, and jam enemy frequencies better. So, even if the F-21 and F-16 use the same missile, the F-21 can detect its enemy faster and shoot first and more accurately.

Sadly, given the hodgepodge of equipment the IAF operates, almost none of which talk to each other, the IAF simply doesn’t understand networked warfare, nor does it care. Stuck in the 1980s’ mindset, the IAF still believes in kinetics while the rest of the world has moved towards electronics. The simplest explanation for this is the scene from _Indiana Jones and Raiders of the Lost Ark_, where an Arab swordsman comes around flaunting his sword skills and Indy simply shoots him with a revolver. Here, the IAF is the Arab swordsman, who thinks a better sword could have won him the battle, instead of transitioning to a revolver; Lockheed Martin is the revolver salesman, who futilely tries arguing with the swordsman to give up his sword for the revolver.

*US firm’s disinformation campaign*
If LM’s sales pitch left the IAF confused, then LM’s disinformation left the IAF entirely not-amused. This disinformation campaign started off with the promise of F-16 production being shifted to India. This developed into a set of transparent lies that F-16 production would involve deep technology transfer and make India independent. Obviously, it didn’t take long for the lies to get called out, which was followed by a public retraction from Lockheed. The amount of damage this did to LM’s campaign is almost incalculable.

But Balakot was the last straw. The IAF is convinced that it shot down an F-16 using an obsolete MiG-21. The severe factual inaccuracies of the “IAF didn’t shoot an F-16” lobby, combined with an embarrassing set of tweets by the Pakistani DG-ISPR unable to explain two missing pilots, means the IAF is now convinced that its reliance on dogfights is valid (that is, the Arab swordsman can still win against Indian Jones’ revolver) and that the F-16 is a flawed product.

In the end, the overall problems of the India-US relationship explained earlier are distilled into India’s F-16 saga: India’s understanding of war and technology being different to the US, both talking a different language; disinformation from the US’ side; India giving false hope where there was none to begin with. In such circumstances, the resumption of military sales to Pakistan was a foregone conclusion, and would have happened regardless of whether there was a Donald Trump involved without anyone getting surprised.

_The author is a senior fellow at the Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies. He tweets @iyervval. Views are personal.
_
https://theprint.in/opinion/f-16-ne...-lockheed-martin-messed-it-up-so-much/269699/

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## airomerix

Agressor Viper and CCS Thunder.

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## Rafael

kursed said:


> The only thing stopping J10-CE's arrival with long-sticks are a few pending business-centric decisions that will govern the life cycle of this weapon system in PAF. As far as I see it, it's a done deal.





kursed said:


> The only thing stopping J10-CE's arrival with long-sticks are a few pending business-centric decisions that will govern the life cycle of this weapon system in PAF. As far as I see it, it's a done deal.



How many units approx.?


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## truthseeker2010

Rafael said:


> How many units approx.?



Two Squadrons!



nomi007 said:


> Hope now USA will allow PAF to buy Bk-72



That would be strategic blunder on part of PAF if they go for more F-16s.

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## Shah_Deu

I think investing in brand new F-16s with how the geopolitics has evolved in all those years would have serious implications not only for our tight pockets but also how efficiently we could maneuver in a new multi polar world besieged by the conflict between the two super powers. Looking at used F-16s and getting it upgraded from Turkey however seems to be a better option IMO. It would make sure, we continue leveraging our F-16 infrastructure for the next decades while avoiding anything else burdening our pockets apart from AZM and JF-17s. The prime share of our money has to go towards Project AZM and improving on JF-17s. With monies getting tight, making a big commitment to buy brand new F-16s at this point of time could be analogous to us losing another decade of our airforce modernization and would have serious security implications for our airforce losing its numerical balance with our foe. With India concentrating more on Tejas, its just a matter of time that we would be facing several hundreds of those jets in addition to everything else they have got. JF-17s provide us means to fill those numbers quickly to offset the enemy's numerical advantage while Project AZM is planned to give us that quality edge what we are looking at. I dont see self-funded new F-16s specifically fit in our strategy for foreseeable future. However, this doesnt take into account the new F-16s which could be procured at a fraction of the price (if at all) in case the US agrees to fund it using our withheld security assistance funds in which case it won't be a bad proposition. This although seems extremely unlikely.


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## airomerix

PAF F-16C Block 52 takes off with blazing afterburner.

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## Trailer23

Here is a new project I just finished working on. Sorry if I may have tagged anyone who might hate the F-16. I suppose i'm still one of those who still has a thing for the Falcon. Enjoy.






@Hodor​@Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain

@Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @seven0seven @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar 
My



hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee

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## khail007

Trailer23 said:


> Here is a new project I just finished working on. Sorry if I may have tagged anyone who might hate the F-16. I suppose i'm still one of those who still has a thing for the Falcon. Enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hodor​@Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @seven0seven @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 633198
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee



*ZABARDAST
زبردست*

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## Imran Khan

Trailer23 said:


> Here is a new project I just finished working on. Sorry if I may have tagged anyone who might hate the F-16. I suppose i'm still one of those who still has a thing for the Falcon. Enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hodor​@Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @seven0seven @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 633198
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee


its good but i will request to make it slow sir . with speed one can not catch clip and next appear .


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## Blacklight

Trailer23 said:


> Here is a new project I just finished working on. Sorry if I may have tagged anyone who might hate the F-16. I suppose i'm still one of those who still has a thing for the Falcon. Enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hodor​@Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @seven0seven @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 633198
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee


WOW! Gave me goosebumps! Very impressive Brother!

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## Nomad40

Trailer23 said:


> Here is a new project I just finished working on. Sorry if I may have tagged anyone who might hate the F-16. I suppose i'm still one of those who still has a thing for the Falcon. Enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hodor​@Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @seven0seven @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 633198
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee


DAYMN BOY Give us Mirages next

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## Trango Towers

Trailer23 said:


> Here is a new project I just finished working on. Sorry if I may have tagged anyone who might hate the F-16. I suppose i'm still one of those who still has a thing for the Falcon. Enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hodor​@Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @seven0seven @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 633198
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee


mashallah keep it up. good job

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## TOPGUN

Very nice bro thanks so much for sharing !!

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## Dil Pakistan

Trailer23 said:


> Here is a new project I just finished working on. Sorry if I may have tagged anyone who might hate the F-16. I suppose i'm still one of those who still has a thing for the Falcon. Enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hodor​@Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @seven0seven @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 633198
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee



JazakALLAH Bhai ...... thank you for sharing and tagging.

Your work getting better and better.

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## StormBreaker

Trailer23 said:


> Here is a new project I just finished working on. Sorry if I may have tagged anyone who might hate the F-16. I suppose i'm still one of those who still has a thing for the Falcon. Enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hodor​@Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @seven0seven @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 633198
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee


I used to own a F-16 pillow, mom crafted it for me some years ago, Used to sleep with it all night.

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## loanranger

Trailer23 said:


> Here is a new project I just finished working on. Sorry if I may have tagged anyone who might hate the F-16. I suppose i'm still one of those who still has a thing for the Falcon. Enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hodor​@Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @seven0seven @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 633198
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee


Kamal. I have noticed shorter the videos cooler they get.

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## graphican

@Trailer23, 

You've got talent MaShaAllah. Keep going, keep polishing, keep working hard. We need 1000 @Trailer23s in Pakistan. Be amazingly great at what you are doing to inspire 999 to become like you! MaShaAllah. 

Well done, good going and keep going!

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## Trailer23

Imran Khan said:


> its good but i will request to make it slow sir . with speed one can not catch clip and next appear .


Bhai, it a bit more complicated than that. I know everything seems to move fast, but on this kind of music - you have to work on the beat which comes pretty fast.

I take most of my ideas from ESPN (US), NASCAR, F1, NHL (Ice Hockey) and NBA.

Aur waisay bhe, ye F-16 ke video hai. Ankh jhapko tou Islamabad - ankh kholo tou Sargodha.

If I have to make a slow video, i'll consider LCA Tejas & Lata at vocals.

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## Sabretooth

Trailer23 said:


> Here is a new project I just finished working on. Sorry if I may have tagged anyone who might hate the F-16. I suppose i'm still one of those who still has a thing for the Falcon. Enjoy.


Daft Punk would be proud.

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## undercover JIX

Trailer23 said:


> Here is a new project I just finished working on. Sorry if I may have tagged anyone who might hate the F-16. I suppose i'm still one of those who still has a thing for the Falcon. Enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hodor​@Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @seven0seven @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 633198
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee


Zabardast janab, Jo F Sola ko pasand nai karta us ko desi hakeem se operation karwana chahiyay.

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## Trailer23

undercover JIX said:


> Zabardast janab, Jo F Sola ko pasand nai karta us ko desi hakeem se operation karwana chahiyay.


Ha ha ha ha.....
Classic.

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## Irfan Baloch

Trailer23 said:


> Here is a new project I just finished working on. Sorry if I may have tagged anyone who might hate the F-16. I suppose i'm still one of those who still has a thing for the Falcon. Enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hodor​@Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @seven0seven @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 633198
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee


F16 is a beauty. there is nothing to hate this most successful and capable jet that has defended Pakistan against USSR and India

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## TsAr

Trailer23 said:


> Here is a new project I just finished working on. Sorry if I may have tagged anyone who might hate the F-16. I suppose i'm still one of those who still has a thing for the Falcon. Enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hodor​@Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @seven0seven @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 633198
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee


Good Job

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## araz

Trailer23 said:


> Here is a new project I just finished working on. Sorry if I may have tagged anyone who might hate the F-16. I suppose i'm still one of those who still has a thing for the Falcon. Enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hodor​@Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @seven0seven @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 633198
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee


Sorry my friend. I have not been well and not upto speed as work is constantly tugging at my spare moments. 8 will have a look in a dayo r so and respond. However from the accolades it already seems you have hit the mark as always. Keep up the good work.
A

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## Mumm-Ra

Trailer23 said:


> Here is a new project I just finished working on. Sorry if I may have tagged anyone who might hate the F-16. I suppose i'm still one of those who still has a thing for the Falcon. Enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hodor​@Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @seven0seven @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 633198
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee



Simply amazing


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## fatman17

Dr. Please take care of yourself.


araz said:


> Sorry my friend. I have not been well and not upto speed as work is constantly tugging at my spare moments. 8 will have a look in a dayo r so and respond. However from the accolades it already seems you have hit the mark as always. Keep up the good work.
> A


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## araz

fatman17 said:


> Dr. Please take care of yourself.


Jazakallaho khairan. I was just under the weather a bit. Much better now. 
A

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## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> Here is a new project I just finished working on. Sorry if I may have tagged anyone who might hate the F-16. I suppose i'm still one of those who still has a thing for the Falcon. Enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hodor​@Horus @Dubious @AgNoStiC MuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @fatman17 @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @seven0seven @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @syed Hammad Ahmed @TF141 @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 633198
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan and @Khafee


Good work and thanks

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Knowing the Paf---US would just keep dangling the carrot and the Paf will wait---waiting like the fox running beside the camel waiting for his lip to fall---.
> 
> US is not stupid to say all out no---.
> 
> The moment they see Paf deviating---they will make an offer and---then pull it back---.


I concur. it is a deviation tactic and repeated multiple times - like they say - first time, shame on you.... if they have not learnt by now, then one can just look at open skies and wonder.
unfortunately, that previous peddling of F-16, then Su-35, then J-15 etc, it was just immature and illogical and to keep peddling this information is not grounded in reality but obsurdity.

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## Trailer23



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## nomi007

F-16 is not just an ordinary fighter. Hope PAF will try to get F-16 Block 70/72.

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## Trailer23

*Check out the Green Helmet up front returning from Red Flag.*

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## Imran Khan

Trailer23 said:


> *Check out the Green Helmet up front returning from Red Flag.*


what its mean ?????????


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## Trailer23

Imran Khan said:


> what its mean ?????????


Sir gee,
Pilot is wearing a Green Helmet (very patriotic). The picture was taken when the No. 5 Squadron was returning from Red Flag Exercise in the US.

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## Nomad40

Imran Khan said:


> what its mean ?????????


it is a unique helmet with the Pakistani flag on it instead of the traditional grey.

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## Imran Khan

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> it is a unique helmet with the Pakistani flag on it instead of the traditional grey.






Trailer23 said:


> Sir gee,
> Pilot is wearing a Green Helmet (very patriotic). The picture was taken when the No. 5 Squadron was returning from Red Flag Exercise in the US.



ohhh i see . thanks sir . i thought they win something so they wear special helmet

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## FuturePAF

Considering both Pakistan and Turkey operate the F-16, what are the chances of Turkey developing poded versions of its Havasoj jammer system, and putting them on F-16B/D aircraft. For the PAF, it would only have to procure the pods and fit them on its twin seat aircraft, saving money in buying a global 6000, and the jammer F-16 would be able to keep up with the rest of the either strike package or a2a package. Finally the F-16 would have the range to keep up with any units our our forces, and we would not have to buy the J-16D, only more used F-16 (and upgrade them mostly to the Block 52 standard plus an AESA radar) to make up for numbers pulled from fighter squadrons.

18 used F-16D with these pods should be enough to form a robust “Growler” Force, and if backed up with a further 18-24 JF-17B based Growler force, our entire Air Force could operate in the expected heavily contested EM battle space, making them able to deal with enemy EW and AESA equipped aircraft as well as high end SAM networks on the border. We could also use these F-16s as part of a package operating far out to sea, of the other F-16s are armed with Turkish made SOM cruise missiles; kinetic and Jammer variants.

this would be the most cost effective option, especially for the navy

http://www.millisavunma.com/havasoj-stand-off-jammer-golge-programi/

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## GriffinsRule

FuturePAF said:


> Considering both Pakistan and Turkey operate the F-16, what are the chances of Turkey developing prodded versions of its Havasoj jammer system, and putting them on F-16B/D aircraft. For the PAF, it would only have to procure the pods and fit them on its twin seat aircraft, saving money in buying a global 6000, and the jammer F-16 would be able to keep up with the rest of the either strike package or a2a package. Finally the F-16 would have the range to keep up with any units our our forces, and we would have to buy the J-16D, only more used F-16 to make up for numbers pulled from fighter squadrons.
> 
> 18 used F-16D with these pods should be enough to form a robust “Growler” Force, and if backed up with a further 18-24 JF-17B based Growler force, our entire Air Force could operate in the expected heavily contested EM battle space, making them able to deal with enemy EW and AESA equipped aircraft as well as high end SAM networks on the border. We could also use these F-16s as part of a package operating far out to sea, of the other F-16s are armed with Turkish made SOM cruise missiles.
> 
> http://www.millisavunma.com/havasoj-stand-off-jammer-golge-programi/


PAF F-16s already have jammers. No need to get a 3rd party one that we can not integrate without the permission from the US anyways. If we need jammer, can always modify Mirages and JF-17s to carry them.


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## FuturePAF

GriffinsRule said:


> PAF F-16s already have jammers. No need to get a 3rd party one that we can not integrate without the permission from the US anyways. If we need jammer, can always modify Mirages and JF-17s to carry them.



The Mirages and The JF-17 don’t have as much range as the F-16 for a long range naval strike. With members on PDF suggesting the procurement of the J-16D, going for the cheaper but still robust option of a dedicated Jammer variant of the F-16 will save on a lot of cost. The current jammers don’t even have DRFM and are probably only meant as self protection suites. A dedicated jammer aircraft with three pods; lower-band, middle-band and higher-band pods should allow the aircraft to handle the full EM spectrum.

As far as US permission, it will definitely need to be procured, but in these tough economic and political times, the US would almost certainly welcome Pakistan not putting all its eggs in the Chinese basket. US defense industry could get a contract to upgrade used F-16D to the Block 52 standard, and that might also sway the current administration, now that India has dropped out of any fighter procurements from the US. If the US mends ties with Turkey, they might also allow the installation of the Turkish AESA radar, down the line.


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## Trailer23

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> DAYMN BOY Give us Mirages next


Well..., since your asked so politely - consider it done.

But, i'm in the middle moving so my apartment is a mess with boxes & cartons all 'round which is putting my mood off.

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## Nomad40

Trailer23 said:


> Well..., since your asked so politely - consider it done.
> 
> But, i'm in the middle moving so my apartment is a mess with boxes & cartons all 'round which is putting my mood off.


Take your time---Brother enjoy the new Place.

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## Incog_nito

Is PAF interested in buying more used F-16 AB models?


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## fatman17

Yes at least 18 additional aircraft new or used


Incog_nito said:


> Is PAF interested in buying more used F-16 AB models?

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## Incog_nito

fatman17 said:


> Yes at least 18 additional aircraft new or used


I guess PAF will be getting 18 block 70s soon. 

What about used F-16 AB models?


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## Stealth

Trailer23 said:


>



The photo was taken after ACM Sohail Aman back from the 23rd flypast.


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## Viper27

Incog_nito said:


> I guess PAF will be getting 18 block 70s soon.
> 
> What about used F-16 AB models?



Don't think we have that much money especially with Covid fallout. Probably used ones at a bargain price from European countries looking to move on to F-35s.. probably then get the used ones upgraded to the latest standard.

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## Stealth



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## Scorpiooo

Stealth said:


> View attachment 634149


As support for existing fleet or for new birds

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## Stealth

Scorpiooo said:


> As support for existing fleet or for new birds



For existing. We can't predict at this moment about are we really going for a new one or not... So far ... no sign...

Americans are not in any mood to offer. Nor we are in a position to ask for. They might be interested IF we are willing to pay not under the FMS.


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## Scorpiooo

Stealth said:


> For existing. We can't predict at this moment about are we really going for a new one or not... So far ... no sign...
> 
> Americans are not in any mood to offer. Nor we are in a position to ask for. They might be interested IF we are willing to pay not under the FMS.


Exactly, thay the situation thay not willing to give any free to us CSF , nor even willing to give something having technical edge then indian , but want money from us aswell 
On ther other we dont have money but we are still mad about f16 (PAF babas passion since thay were young). 
So something is cooking but to much slowly 
In marasi term "halki phokli dholki"

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## SABRE

Well, the US Dep. of State has just announced the sale of F-16 Block 70 to Taiwan. I am guessing if PAF goes for new F-16s that's the Block that might be available from here on.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263226257430503426

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## Akh1112

SABRE said:


> Well, the US Dep. of State has just announced the sale of F-16 Block 70 to Taiwan. I am guessing if PAF goes for new F-16s that's the Block that might be available from here on.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263226257430503426




That tweet is just saying that Taiwan has purchased them in the past. In terms of availability, the block 50/52 production line is shut, the only new options are 70/72s


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## Stealth

Pakistani defense enthusiasts have to understand this thingy “no free lunch”. Whatever Pakistan needs, we have to pay for that....

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## mingle

Akh1112 said:


> That tweet is just saying that Taiwan has purchased them in the past. In terms of availability, the block 50/52 production line is shut, the only new options are 70/72s


I think proposed order is about 66-70 jets for Taiwan.



Stealth said:


> Pakistani defense enthusiasts should under no free lunch. Whatever Pakistan needs, we have to pay for that....


Yes when we expect something for free?

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## Akh1112

mingle said:


> I think proposed order is about 66-70 jets for Taiwan.
> 
> 
> Yes when we expect something for free?



'
Yep, plus upgrade kits from memory.

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## mingle

Akh1112 said:


> '
> Yep, plus upgrade kits from memory.


This all will come out from $ 62 billion given to LM to build Blk70V standard Taiwan order will serve from this money.that's why I believe PAF got more chance for new than used F16s. Americans called it wave of F16s orders? Which country gonna buy Blk70? So this pods is step in right direction also shows Pak US relationship is back to normal all irritants are out now

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## Trailer23

Stealth said:


> Pakistani defense enthusiasts should under no free lunch. Whatever Pakistan needs, we have to pay for that....


Precisely. Its the 'Put up OR Shut up' mentality from the US.

That being said, for ones who have CSF on their minds - its clear.

Pakistan will attempt get it for as long as it takes - no matter how many Presidents come in the Oval Office.

Yeah, there might be a day when we may finally have 'em by the balls and will finally get the CSF. Two things are certain if it (ever) happens.
1. We'll be too old or dead by then.
2. The figure will probably be so under valued at that period - that the Americans will cave in just to stick it to us and shut us up once and for all.

I gave up on the CSF a while back.


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## Akh1112

mingle said:


> This all will come out from $ 62 billion given to LM to build Blk70V standard Taiwan order will serve from this money.that's why I believe PAF got more chance for new than used F16s. Americans called it wave of F16s orders? Which country gonna buy Blk70? So this pods is step in right direction also shows Pak US relationship is back to normal all irritants are out now




If im not mistaken, there are quite a few countries interested in the Block 70, its pretty much the best aircraft you can get before the f-35, i dont think the Pods are a big thing, until CSF and FMF are reinstated, we wont be purchasing anything


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## mingle

Akh1112 said:


> If im not mistaken, there are quite a few countries interested in the Block 70, its pretty much the best aircraft you can get before the f-35, i dont think the Pods are a big thing, until CSF and FMF are reinstated, we wont be purchasing anything


They have to sell more than 300 copies imagine


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## airomerix



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## mingle

airomerix said:


> View attachment 634230


Is it @Yasser76??


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## Thorough Pro

"Support Taiwan"? LOL you want to make them sacrificial goat against China



SABRE said:


> Well, the US Dep. of State has just announced the sale of F-16 Block 70 to Taiwan. I am guessing if PAF goes for new F-16s that's the Block that might be available from here on.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1263226257430503426


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## adelphi

Stealth said:


> Pakistani defense enthusiasts have to understand this thingy “no free lunch”. Whatever Pakistan needs, we have to pay for that....



Pakistan has already paid for the so called "free lunch". US/Nato have utilised our facilities and these dues are yet to be paid through FMS.

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## Yasser76

mingle said:


> Is it @Yasser76??



Haha! Only in my dreams!

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## SABRE

Thorough Pro said:


> "Support Taiwan"? LOL you want to make them sacrificial goat against China



Where did I say "support Taiwan"?


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## Blacklight

Why are people so confused over CSF & FMS?

CSF is when the "US" pays us in cash, or goods for services rendered.

FMS is when "WE" pay cash.

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## Bil

*Nightmare for India, US to equip Pakistan Air Force F - 16 fighter jet fleet with advanced Sniper Pods and LANTIRN system*

ISLAMABAD - The United States Department of Defense (DOD) has approved an indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contract for Pakistani F-16s. The contract has been awarded to Lockheed Martin.

The contract involves Foreign Military Sales (FMS) for Sniper, Infrared Search and Track (IRST), and Low Altitude Navigation and Targeting Infrared for Night (LANTIRN) navigation pod (fixed wing) hardware production

This contract provides the necessary resources required for the management, fabrication, upgrade/retrofit, integration support and testing and shipping of its non-developmental item (NDI) Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods (ATP) System, NDI LANTIRN Fixed Image Navigation Set upgrades, and the NDI IRST system as it relates to the requirements document associated with each specific delivery order placed under this contract.

The work on the production will be performed in Orlando, Florida and it will be completed by May 2025.

The FMS is for US allies including Bahrain, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Egypt, Greece, Indonesia, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Republic of Korea, Kuwait, Morocco, Netherlands, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Qatar, Romania, Saudi Arabia, Slovakia, Taiwan, Thailand, and Turkey.

https://timesofislamabad.com/21-May...-with-advanced-sniper-pods-and-lantirn-system

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## Blacklight

Del said:


> *Nightmare for India, US to equip Pakistan Air Force F - 16 fighter jet fleet with advanced Sniper Pods and LANTIRN system*
> 
> ISLAMABAD - The United States Department of Defense (DOD) has approved an indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contract for Pakistani F-16s. The contract has been awarded to Lockheed Martin.
> 
> The contract involves Foreign Military Sales (FMS) for Sniper, Infrared Search and Track (IRST), and Low Altitude Navigation and Targeting Infrared for Night (LANTIRN) navigation pod (fixed wing) hardware production
> 
> This contract provides the necessary resources required for the management, fabrication, upgrade/retrofit, integration support and testing and shipping of its non-developmental item (NDI) Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods (ATP) System, NDI LANTIRN Fixed Image Navigation Set upgrades, and the NDI IRST system as it relates to the requirements document associated with each specific delivery order placed under this contract.
> 
> The work on the production will be performed in Orlando, Florida and it will be completed by May 2025.
> 
> The FMS is for US allies including Bahrain, Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, Egypt, Greece, Indonesia, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Republic of Korea, Kuwait, Morocco, Netherlands, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Poland, Qatar, Romania, Saudi Arabia, Slovakia, Taiwan, Thailand, and Turkey.
> 
> https://timesofislamabad.com/21-May...-with-advanced-sniper-pods-and-lantirn-system


Times of Islamabad, is worse than a tabloid.

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## cloud4000

Akh1112 said:


> If im not mistaken, there are quite a few countries interested in the Block 70, its pretty much the best aircraft you can get before the f-35, i dont think the Pods are a big thing, until CSF and FMF are reinstated, we wont be purchasing anything



CSF must be settled before any serious talk of new or used F-16s coming to PAF. I’ve heard Pakistan might be asking as much as $12 billion. The question is: how much will US give to Pakistan? Once the number is settled things should fall in place.


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## KaiserX

cloud4000 said:


> CSF must be settled before any serious talk of new or used F-16s coming to PAF. I’ve heard Pakistan might be asking as much as $12 billion. The question is: how much will US give to Pakistan? Once the number is settled things should fall in place.



F-16s are obsolete for us at this point. By the time any deal is signed and we receive the 16s we are looking at an 6-8 year timeframe. F-16 is only an obsession of fanboys, the real beast with be Project AZM which will make the 16 look like a baby quite literally.

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## Akh1112

cloud4000 said:


> CSF must be settled before any serious talk of new or used F-16s coming to PAF. I’ve heard Pakistan might be asking as much as $12 billion. The question is: how much will US give to Pakistan? Once the number is settled things should fall in place.




Got any source? $12Bn of CSF would be close to like 100+ fighters, that would be very, very, very unlikely



KaiserX said:


> F-16s are obsolete for us at this point. By the time any deal is signed and we receive the 16s we are looking at an 6-8 year timeframe. F-16 is only an obsession of fanboys, the real beast with be Project AZM which will make the 16 look like a baby quite literally.



This is factually incorrect, the F-16 block 72 will be the finest fighter in the subcontinent until whatever comes of AZM, the F-16 is FAR from outdated and is a very worthy opponent


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## KaiserX

Akh1112 said:


> Got any source? $12Bn of CSF would be close to like 100+ fighters, that would be very, very, very unlikely
> 
> 
> 
> This is factually incorrect, the F-16 block 72 will be the finest fighter in the subcontinent until whatever comes of AZM, the F-16 is FAR from outdated and is a very worthy opponent



Far from outdated? what a joke. Why is no nation ordering the block 72 then and instead focusing on the F-35? thank God PAF isnt so shortsighted. We have seen how far weve lagged behind in the early 2000's due to reliance on the 16. By the time we get our first batch 5+ years would have past and project azm would be ready. Why spend billions on foreign obsolete aircrafts when we can produce something ourselves that rivals the F-35 and can take out the 16 anytime.


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## Akh1112

KaiserX said:


> Far from outdated? what a joke. Why is no nation ordering the block 72 then and instead focusing on the F-35? thank God PAF isnt so shortsighted. We have seen how far weve lagged behind in the early 2000's due to reliance on the 16. By the time we get our first batch 5+ years would have past and project azm would be ready. Why spend billions on foreign obsolete aircrafts when we can produce something ourselves that rivals the F-35 and can take out the 16 anytime.




Dont be illogical, there are a handful of nations who are ordering the F-16 Block 70/72. If you think AZM will be ready in 5 years, you are in for disappointment. Pakistan, a nation with very little domestic R+D, a very little defense budget, a very little infrastructure for the design of advanced systems and aircraft, a country who's only domestic fighter design experience was co manufacturing and rebuild of already designed aircraft will have designed a successful FGFA before countries with easier access to advanced subsystems, i.e Turkey, Russia even. By your logic we should trash the JF-17 program too and focus all of our assets onto AZM. The F-16 Block 72 is one of the most advanced 4th generation platforms, if not, THE most advanced 4th gen platform. If you think its obsolete id love to hear what your standards are for a modern aircraft.

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## Scorpiooo

KaiserX said:


> Far from outdated? what a joke. Why is no nation ordering the block 72 then and instead focusing on the F-35? thank God PAF isnt so shortsighted. We have seen how far weve lagged behind in the early 2000's due to reliance on the 16. By the time we get our first batch 5+ years would have past and project azm would be ready. Why spend billions on foreign obsolete aircrafts when we can produce something ourselves that rivals the F-35 and can take out the 16 anytime.


5 + project azm readyz wakeup bro in year even design will not be finalized, it will dacade or dacade and half (10-15) year to fly prototype, production is next step


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## mingle

Akh1112 said:


> Dont be illogical, there are a handful of nations who are ordering the F-16 Block 70/72. If you think AZM will be ready in 5 years, you are in for disappointment. Pakistan, a nation with very little domestic R+D, a very little defense budget, a very little infrastructure for the design of advanced systems and aircraft, a country who's only domestic fighter design experience was co manufacturing and rebuild of already designed aircraft will have designed a successful FGFA before countries with easier access to advanced subsystems, i.e Turkey, Russia even. By your logic we should trash the JF-17 program too and focus all of our assets onto AZM. The F-16 Block 72 is one of the most advanced 4th generation platforms, if not, THE most advanced 4th gen platform. If you think its obsolete id love to hear what your standards are for a modern aircraft.


Till 5th Gen Blk70 along blk 3 is best way farward for PAF.

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## Trango Towers

StormBreaker said:


> I used to own a F-16 pillow, mom crafted it for me some years ago, Used to sleep with it all night.


All night hey.
No wonder your wife left you loooool

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## StormBreaker

Trango Towers said:


> All night hey.
> No wonder your wife left you loooool




konsi wife ? Kab wife ?


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## KaiserX

Yeah keep dreaming of the F-16s and then that dream bites reality. 20 years all talk for only 18 new jets. Project AZM is def not going to take PAF 15 years. Design work has been going on since 2015. 

Dont underestimate the Pakistani nation and its scientist/engineers. We built nukes within a decade of deciding, we built a top notch 4th generation fighter in a decade as well, and you think it will take 20 years to build a 5th generation jet ?


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## Akh1112

mingle said:


> Till 5th Gen Blk70 along blk 3 is best way farward for PAF.




A mix of JF-17 block III's alongside some Viper's is the best thing for PAF ye

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## KaiserX

Akh1112 said:


> A mix of JF-17 block III's alongside some Viper's is the best thing for PAF ye



Vipers are so obsolete... world is ordering F-35 and we are dreaming of Viper for the next decades  thank God PAF is not as shortsighted

Id rather order J-31's than vipers

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## Irfan Baloch

KaiserX said:


> Vipers are so obsolete... world is ordering F-35 and we are dreaming of Viper for the next decades  thank God PAF is not as shortsighted
> 
> Id rather order J-31's than vipers


its a only a handful of countries that are ordering F-35 and they wont be replacing plane for plane with F-35. vipers are going to fly even among the premier airforces as+ Gen fighters for decades to come

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## Akh1112

KaiserX said:


> Vipers are so obsolete... world is ordering F-35 and we are dreaming of Viper for the next decades  thank God PAF is not as shortsighted
> 
> Id rather order J-31's than vipers





I sincerely hope you are joking. Everyone who CAN order the F-35 will, everyone who CANNOT will go for the Block 72, which is ONE OF THE MOST ADVANCED 4+ GENERATION FIGHTERS ON THE MARKET, a block 70/72 will bring EVERY aircraft in the subcontinent to its knees. The funny part is AS SOON AS the US resumes CSF/FMF and offers a line of credit the PAF will be all over the Block 72. I feel like you are trolling at this point.

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## mingle

KaiserX said:


> Vipers are so obsolete... world is ordering F-35 and we are dreaming of Viper for the next decades  thank God PAF is not as shortsighted
> 
> Id rather order J-31's than vipers


They are with AESA along AIM120D are good for another 40yrs with room for further upgrades.
It's just design is old rest it's new plane inside can take on any plane.plus Bonus PAF have trained crew infrastructure at place.

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## Akh1112

mingle said:


> They are with AESA along AIM120D are good for another 40yrs with room for further upgrades.
> It's just design is old rest it's new plane inside can take on any plane.plus Bonus PAF have trained crew infrastructure at place.



Id argue that the design isnt even old, the airframe has changed a fair bit (atleast materials wise) from the days of the legacy falcon. Its a whole new beast tbh

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## mingle

Akh1112 said:


> Id argue that the design isnt even old, the airframe has changed a fair bit (atleast materials wise) from the days of the legacy falcon. Its a whole new beast tbh


Blk 70 is a great plane true more composite material. I am Sure PAF will go after Blk70 since we are back in FMS I hope we will get good number I wish original 75 vipers blk 52 that what PAF wanted 2005 let's see this time since no blk 52 let's have Blk70 also upgrade current vipers to V

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## Akh1112

mingle said:


> Blk 70 is a great plane true more composite material. I am Sure PAF will go after Blk70 since we are back in FMS I hope we will get good number I wish original 75 vipers blk 52 that what PAF wanted 2005 let's see this time since no blk 52 let's have Blk70 also upgrade current vipers to V


agreed

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## araz

cloud4000 said:


> CSF must be settled before any serious talk of new or used F-16s coming to PAF. I’ve heard Pakistan might be asking as much as $12 billion. The question is: how much will US give to Pakistan? Once the number is settled things should fall in place.


My answer is a big fat 0. Sorry but the US has no intentions of paying any of its dues unless we have its tIl under our boots and that moment has long passed. I cannot blame them either as this is a business dealing and we have not claimed our dues in advance.
A

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## araz

KaiserX said:


> Vipers are so obsolete... world is ordering F-35 and we are dreaming of Viper for the next decades  thank God PAF is not as shortsighted
> 
> Id rather order J-31's than vipers


J31 is not ready. If it were we would not be having this debate rather we would have been inducting them. 
A


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## Thorough Pro

My post was not directed at you, rather at the US officials who made that statement, which you shared.



SABRE said:


> Where did I say "support Taiwan"?

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> My answer is a big fat 0. Sorry but the US has no intentions of paying any of its dues unless we have its tIl under our boots and that moment has long passed. I cannot blame them either as this is a business dealing and we have not claimed our dues in advance.
> A


We should try to get indirectly ..ask for debt relief or food products we import that can be subsituted by american products otherwise you are right


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## Trango Towers

StormBreaker said:


> konsi wife ? Kab wife ?


See what I mean bro
You dont even remember her looool


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## Raider 21

araz said:


> J31 is not ready. If it were we would not be having this debate rather we would have been inducting them.
> A


And I hope it does not come. There also some strings attached with Chinese deals. Most Chinese aircraft have to be modified for PAF standards, that includes a lot of western incorporation. The cost of maintenance becomes very high if they are to meet the high and mighty flight hours annually.

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## araz

Knuckles said:


> And I hope it does not come. There also some strings attached with Chinese deals. Most Chinese aircraft have to be modified for PAF standards, that includes a lot of western incorporation. The cost of maintenance becomes very high if they are to meet the high and mighty flight hours annually.


I think of the choices we have on the table it would have been the most likely given our strained relationship with Uncle Sam. Even if the US route were to open up we would still want older platforms to upgrade while Lockmart will want to sell us brand spanking new toys to make money off of us which we do not have. 
I understand the problems associated with the Chinese ACs but it is a question of our needs. I filly agree that a home grown solution would now be the best one for PAF. However the question to which no one has a satisfactory answer is whether we need anything in between now and the induction of project Azm. 
A

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## nomi007



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## Scorpiooo

nomi007 said:


>


Can ypu explain this picture


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## mingle

Scorpiooo said:


> Can ypu explain this picture


It's sniper pod

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## Thorough Pro

Nothing can Kill an F-16...
just a nice docu

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## airomerix

Some early PAF F-16 shots.

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## North Star

Can someone please briefly explain what exactly F16 V offers above our current MLU/Block 52+ vipers.


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## Armchair

AESA radar, better RWR, single screen cockpit, EW update, lower RCS

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## araz

North Star said:


> Can someone please briefly explain what exactly F16 V offers above our current MLU/Block 52+ vipers.


In a nut shell an AESA radar and further net centricity. You have to understand we acquired 16/52s in 2008-11.A lot changes in aviation industry in a decade.
A

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## Scorpiooo

Armchair said:


> AESA radar, better RWR, single screen cockpit, EW update, lower RCS


What about CFTs


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## airomerix



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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blacklight said:


> Any hints?





Blacklight said:


> He ruled out Su-35, and said it was a decoy for something else. If I'm not mistaken.
> 
> He is Army, not Air Force.
> 
> 
> Ever heard of Khuda ka Khauf? It's April bro.
> 
> Put a disclaimer, that it is just a rumor.





SD 10 said:


> can you tell if its airforce related or navy?





StormBreaker said:


> Ab billu ne boldia ke year end to phir year end mein hi pata chalega na bhai.
> 
> Lets control our desires...





Blacklight said:


> Brother, you do understand that this is an online forum and not a Congressional inquiry. Just adding a disclaimer, that it is a rumor would absolve you.
> 
> Just saying, in case you change your mind.





Scorpiooo said:


> Seems some solid info





TsAr said:


> You can surely share the info on the forum, I am sure we would not blame you if it does not come out to be true. Purpose of the forum is to discuss and share....


You all having fun with the Erieyes??

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## Caprxl

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You all having fun with the Erieyes??



@Blacklight

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You all having fun with the Erieyes??


@Bilal Khan (Quwa) its too early ... end of year is till 7 month's away


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## Trailer23

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> You all having fun with the Erieyes??


What's funny is we got a glimpse of a new (unmarked) AEW&C for the PAF - and the Topic doesn't even highlight 'BREAKING NEWS'.

Everyone is waiting for the miracle Aircraft/NEWS to break. The day that happens, we'll see 4-5 posts on it - at the hour.

A newly inducted SAAB (for some) is like a father taking his son to buy his first (used) car - which just happens to be a FX.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Scorpiooo said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) its too early ... end of year is till 7 month's away


Under Promise.
Over Deliver.

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## Nomad40

Trailer23 said:


> What's funny is we got a glimpse of a new (unmarked) AEW&C for the PAF - and the Topic doesn't even highlight 'BREAKING NEWS'.
> 
> Everyone is waiting for the miracle Aircraft/NEWS to break. The day that happens, we'll see 4-5 posts on it - at the hour.
> 
> A newly inducted SAAB (for some) is like a father taking his son to buy his first (used) car - which just happens to be a FX.


whats going on ?

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## mingle

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> whats going on ?


You never seen AWACS before?


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## Nomad40

mingle said:


> You never seen AWACS before?



mystery aricraft?

enjoying erieyes?

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## litman

airomerix said:


> Some early PAF F-16 shots.
> 
> View attachment 635325
> View attachment 635326
> View attachment 635327
> View attachment 635328
> View attachment 635329


the cockpit of this F-16 looks terrible. we keep our cars nice and tidy and look at the miserable condition of this cockpit. koe kapra he mar dia karain haftay main aik bar. the exterior paint of most of PAF jets is generally in bad shapr but at least they should keep the cockpit clean and tidy. this is the older non MLUed F-16 but it seems that the same tradition of uncleanliness will be continued for the newwer jets as well.
when the first time PAF went for red flag i remember there was an interview by a USAF airman and he said about maintenance of pakistani F-16s that the way they (PAF) maintains the jets you cant expect that in a military.


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## GriffinsRule

litman said:


> the cockpit of this F-16 looks terrible. we keep our cars nice and tidy and look at the miserable condition of this cockpit. koe kapra he mar dia karain haftay main aik bar. the exterior paint of most of PAF jets is generally in bad shapr but at least they should keep the cockpit clean and tidy. this is the older non MLUed F-16 but it seems that the same tradition of uncleanliness will be continued for the newwer jets as well.
> when the first time PAF went for red flag i remember there was an interview by a USAF airman and he said about maintenance of pakistani F-16s that the way they (PAF) maintains the jets you cant expect that in a military.


I am pretty sure that is a simulator and its not messy, just used.


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## airomerix

A painting depicting 1 x JF-17 and 2 x F-16s from 9 and 19 sqn armed to the teeth with BVRs and WVRs.

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## Adam_Khan

airomerix said:


> A painting depicting 1 x JF-17 and 2 x F-16s from 9 and 19 sqn armed to the teeth with BVRs and WVRs.
> 
> View attachment 636229




Not a painting,this is from DCS.


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## GriffinsRule

Adam_Khan said:


> Not a painting,this is from DCS.


Really, DCS has training rounds for JF-17 as an option? 
Here is another image from the same series I think.
Clearly the pictures are not real as the F-16s depicted are C variants. So DCS or a Painting both could be true.

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## Nomad40

GriffinsRule said:


> Really, DCS has training rounds for JF-17 as an option?
> Here is another image from the same series I think.
> Clearly the pictures are not real as the F-16s depicted are C variants. So DCS or a Painting both could be true.


Yes this is DCS


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## Trailer23

@Hodor @airomerix @Knuckles @Adam_Khan @mingle @Haris Ali2140

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## Bossman

litman said:


> the cockpit of this F-16 looks terrible. we keep our cars nice and tidy and look at the miserable condition of this cockpit. koe kapra he mar dia karain haftay main aik bar. the exterior paint of most of PAF jets is generally in bad shapr but at least they should keep the cockpit clean and tidy. this is the older non MLUed F-16 but it seems that the same tradition of uncleanliness will be continued for the newwer jets as well.
> when the first time PAF went for red flag i remember there was an interview by a USAF airman and he said about maintenance of pakistani F-16s that the way they (PAF) maintains the jets you cant expect that in a military.


I think you should offer your services to the PAF as the chief cockpit cleanliness inspector.

BTW do know what even a small loose item in the cockpit can do during flight in highly maneuverable aircraft like F16. PAF are professional, they know what they are doing. Fanboys get too stuck with the optics.

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## litman

Bossman said:


> I think you should offer your services to the PAF as the chief cockpit cleanliness inspector.
> 
> BTW do know what even a small loose item in the cockpit can do during flight in highly maneuverable aircraft like F16. PAF are professional, they know what they are doing. Fanboys get too stuck with the optics.


that's why i mentioned the words of a USAF maintenance crew about the maintenance of PAF jets. i think you can still get that on F-16.net. even one F7 pilot who is a friend of mine told me that sometimes we have to press a switch multiple times to get the desired function. there is no doubt that we are operating jets which are in museums world wide. the world is retiring the F-16s which is our frontline fighter. keep on living in dreams of professionalism but we cant deny the fact that we lost 4 jets in 3 months in 2020 alone and lost 3 pilots. one of them could be due to pilot error.

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## Scorpiooo

The beauty

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16AM-Fighting-Falcon/2708

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## Scorpiooo

How much it will cost for our old F16 A/B to be upgraded to V standard per unit cost ?

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## mingle

Scorpiooo said:


> How much it will cost for our old F16 A/B to be upgraded to V standard per unit cost ?


Taiwan paying around 2 billions for theior current fleet


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## airomerix

F-16C Block 52 without CFT's in a dive bombing action.

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## Scorpiooo

F-16 Pakistan Air Force 
Skardu Air Base Gilgit Baltistan

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## airomerix

Scorpiooo said:


> F-16 Pakistan Air Force
> Skardu Air Base Gilgit Baltistan
> View attachment 637189



I'm afraid this is neither a PAF bird nor is this Qadri AFB. 

This is a HAF F-16 Block 30.

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## Bossman

litman said:


> that's why i mentioned the words of a USAF maintenance crew about the maintenance of PAF jets. i think you can still get that on F-16.net. even one F7 pilot who is a friend of mine told me that sometimes we have to press a switch multiple times to get the desired function. there is no doubt that we are operating jets which are in museums world wide. the world is retiring the F-16s which is our frontline fighter. keep on living in dreams of professionalism but we cant deny the fact that we lost 4 jets in 3 months in 2020 alone and lost 3 pilots. one of them could be due to pilot error.


Mostly BS!

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## airomerix

litman said:


> that's why i mentioned the words of a USAF maintenance crew about the maintenance of PAF jets. i think you can still get that on F-16.net.



Highly unlikely. There is a reason why mission capability rates of PAF F-16s are above average. It means good maintenance, careful flying and fewer experiments. 



> even one F7 pilot who is a friend of mine told me that sometimes we have to press a switch multiple times to get the desired function.



Not possible. 

Engineering mishaps happen. But in 99% of the times, they are hidden Such as hydraulic leaks leading to electrical/power failures. However, avionics not working means everyone from Avionics guy (an airmen) to OC Engg (a Group Captain) will be going home. You have no idea how lethal GDP's are towards engineers when it comes to such failures. 



> there is no doubt that we are operating jets which are in museums world wide. the world is retiring the F-16s which is our frontline fighter. keep on living in dreams of professionalism but we cant deny the fact that we lost 4 jets in 3 months in 2020 alone and lost 3 pilots. one of them could be due to pilot error.



This is not a mature analysis. B-52's, KC-135's and Tornado's are still flying. Good maintenance, excellent pilot training, and intelligent mission planning increase the life of these machines. We usually lose F-7s and Mirages because transition from K-8s to F-7s and Mirages is a significant leap in terms of speed and complexity both. A few decades ago, these fighters were in the front line squadrons while jets like FT-5, FT-6 served as intermediaries. And I must say, the FT-5's and FT-6s were excellent bridge between K-8/T-37 to F-7s and Mirages. F-16s were piloted by more mature pilots hence a very low attrition rate. 

Let's not make untrue assumptions.

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## Armchair

PAF's crash rate relative to its operational tempo is phenomenal and above average. Even with old planes. I think some posts here are childish. This is typical of the disdainful tones and dismissive monologues - one never gets that tone from a former officer or anyone of reasonably good breeding.

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## Armchair

repeating the same thing over and over again and ruining a nice thread.

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## Armchair

Yes, to our wannabe analyst, BBC, CNN, Fox News, etc is "the world". "The World" has said PAF bad. Okay, thanks for the enlightenment.

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## Imran Khan

airomerix said:


> I'm afraid this is neither a PAF bird nor is this Qadri AFB.
> 
> This is a HAF F-16 Block 30.


You break many hearts

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## Beast

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/y-20...ews-discussions.231628/page-105#post-12386423

Possible aerial tanker for PAF F-16 in future. This tanker Y-20 comes with soft boom and hard boom which maybe suitable to refuel F-16.


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## airomerix

Imran Khan said:


> You break many hearts



I have a distaste for alarmists and unfounded good news.

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## airomerix

Breaking formation

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## Trailer23

*Anatolian Eagle (Turkey) - 2010*​

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## airomerix



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## Trailer23



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## truthfollower

Trailer23 said:


>



whats the thing next to engine? looks like air breaks? never seen them in action

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## DrWatson775

Armchair said:


> PAF's crash rate relative to its operational tempo is phenomenal and above average. Even with old planes. I think some posts here are childish. This is typical of the disdainful tones and dismissive monologues - one never gets that tone from a former officer or anyone of reasonably good breeding.



Do you mean crash rate is "below" average?

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## Trailer23

truthfollower said:


> Never seen them in action

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## Scorpiooo

truthfollower said:


> whats the thing next to engine? looks like air breaks? never seen them in action


Air brakes

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## airomerix

Block 52 in action.








Flying Officer being taught by the Base Commander himself - 19 sqn F-16 ADF

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## monitor

Wing Commander Mujahid Anwar (now PAF Air Chief) inspecting the once embargoed F-16s before they were sent to Pakistan by United States.

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## Trailer23

@airomerix​@araz @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain

@Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar 
My



hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan

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## Nomad40

Trailer23 said:


> @airomerix​@araz @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 639108
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan


WAHH I WOULD HAVE FREAKED OUT

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## Trailer23

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> WAHH I WOULD HAVE FREAKED OUT


You!
Imagine the Flight Crew and Passengers aboard India's Spice Jet B737 last year when the PAF scrambled our F-16's to intercept 'em in Pakistan Airspace flying under a Military callsign.

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## Nomad40

Trailer23 said:


> You!
> Imagine the Flight Crew and Passengers aboard India's Spice Jet B737 last year when the PAF scrambled our F-16's to intercept 'em in Pakistan Airspace flying under a Military callsign.


That would have been a forever memory for the Indian's


Freak out as in Joy------------GOBSMACKED 



Btw your friend khafee has blocked me from his forum-------we must be expecting some J-15s according to him, What do you have to say.

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## Imran Khan

Trailer23 said:


> @airomerix​@araz @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 639108
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan


this one look like a VVIP escort to me sir spicejet wingtip sharklet have wrrite spicejet on them

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## Trailer23

Imran Khan said:


> this one look like a VVIP escort to me sir spicejet wingtip sharklet have wrrite spicejet on them


Yes sir, you are absolutely right. The SpiceJet was just a reference.

By the way, the term '_Sharlets_' are on airbus a320 Family (a318/319/320/321).

SpiceJet operates Boeing737's. And it is not necessary that branding be done on the Winglets/Sharlets.

Some of the Winglets on our B737 do not have flydubai on them. Those aircrafts are usually on short-lease.

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## Dil Pakistan

Trailer23 said:


> @airomerix​@araz @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 639108
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan



Exiting, F-16 showed his belly - it was clean, no missiles.


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## Blacklight

Trailer23 said:


> @airomerix​@araz @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 639108
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan


Wondering why the Viper is unarmed, possibly because it was only doing a visual check?

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## Yasser76

Blacklight said:


> Wondering why the Viper is unarmed, possibly because it was only doing a visual check?



Air forces do this sometimes for training, just intercept an airliner obtain visual ID and RTB

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## airomerix

Yasser76 said:


> Air forces do this sometimes for training, just intercept an airliner obtain visual ID and RTB





Imran Khan said:


> this one look like a VVIP escort to me sir spicejet wingtip sharklet have wrrite spicejet on them





Trailer23 said:


> Yes sir, you are absolutely right. The SpiceJet was just a reference.
> 
> By the way, the term '_Sharlets_' are on airbus a320 Family (a318/319/320/321).
> 
> SpiceJet operates Boeing737's. And it is not necessary that branding be done on the Winglets/Sharlets.
> 
> Some of the Winglets on our B737 do not have flydubai on them. Those aircrafts are usually on short-lease.





Dil Pakistan said:


> Exiting, F-16 showed his belly - it was clean, no missiles.





Blacklight said:


> Wondering why the Viper is unarmed, possibly because it was only doing a visual check?



Gents,

I hate to be late at a good debate.

These are 4 x F-16s escorting Gulfstream G450 of Sohail Aman while he was enroute to Islamabad for the last time as chief.

Some more shots from the same occasion.

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## Scorpiooo

Tribute & Acknowledgement. After Operation Swift Retort, Lockheed Martin Displayed This Picture of a PAF F-16 on Their Websites. Remember LM No Longer Produces This Version of F-16. It Was Both a Tribute and Acknowledgement of PAF's Achievements and First Kill of The Top Soviet Fighter, The SU-30MKI of The Indian AirForce.

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## airomerix

Scorpiooo said:


> Tribute & Acknowledgement. After Operation Swift Retort, Lockheed Martin Displayed This Picture of a PAF F-16 on Their Websites. Remember LM No Longer Produces This Version of F-16. It Was Both a Tribute and Acknowledgement of PAF's Achievements and First Kill of The Top Soviet Fighter, The SU-30MKI of The Indian AirForce.
> View attachment 639129



Not exactly true.

Lockheed posted this photo on Instagram for Wallpaper Wednesday. Infact, this exact screenshot has been taken by myself. Made a thread about it back then.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/lock...o-paf-f-16-achievements.638078/#post-11808285

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## aliyusuf

Trailer23 said:


> @airomerix​@araz @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @waz @Windjammer @dbc @Aamir Hussain
> 
> @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @graphican @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
> My
> View attachment 639108
> hommies @PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan


Had similar F-7PG experience flying out of Quetta airport to Karachi. 
The PG shadowed us for a good 2 to 3 mins.

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## TOPGUN

Very nice video bro !!

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## Scorpiooo

airomerix said:


> Not exactly true.
> 
> Lockheed posted this photo on Instagram for Wallpaper Wednesday. Infact, this exact screenshot has been taken by myself. Made a thread about it back then.
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/lock...o-paf-f-16-achievements.638078/#post-11808285


Thanks for corrections

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## PanzerKiel

Anyone here in knowledge of an incident in recent history whereby a PAF F-16 took out a PAF Mirage using a live AAM in a training sortie?

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## Imran Khan

PanzerKiel said:


> Anyone here in knowledge of an incident in recent history whereby a PAF F-16 took out a PAF Mirage using a live AAM in a training sortie?


we even not dreamed of it

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## untitled

PanzerKiel said:


> Anyone here in knowledge of an incident in recent history whereby a PAF F-16 took out a PAF Mirage using a live AAM in a training sortie?


If I remember correctly it was a Mirage on Mirage friendly fire incident

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## araz

untitled said:


> If I remember correctly it was a Mirage on Mirage friendly fire incident


That was my impression as well.
A

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## Adam_Khan

PanzerKiel said:


> Anyone here in knowledge of an incident in recent history whereby a PAF F-16 took out a PAF Mirage using a live AAM in a training sortie?



It was a Mirage on Mirage incident involving aircraft from 7 squadron, they went on a practice bombing mission and on the return leg decided to do an ACM. Unfortunately the MP forgot to switch off his master arm switch and fired an AIM.9L shooting down his wingman who ejected safely.

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## PanzerKiel

untitled said:


> There was a mirage on mirage friendly fire incident





Adam_Khan said:


> It was a Mirage on Mirage incident involving aircraft from 7 squadron, they went on a practice bombing mission and on the return leg decided to do an ACM. Unfortunately the MP forgot to switch off his master arm switch and fired an AIM.9L shooting down his wingman who ejected safely.



Thanks for clarification.

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## Adam_Khan

PanzerKiel said:


> Thanks for clarification.

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## PanzerKiel

Adam_Khan said:


> View attachment 639220


Air Commodore Shigri, Wing Commander at that time. He's the one who had that painful flight back.

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## Scorpiooo

2 PAF Falcons and a JF-17 Lined up at Izmir During 100th anniversary of Turkish Airforce F16s

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## Blacklight

airomerix said:


> Gents,
> 
> I hate to be late at a good debate.
> 
> These are 4 x F-16s escorting Gulfstream G450 of Sohail Aman while he was enroute to Islamabad for the last time as chief.
> 
> Some more shots from the same occasion.
> 
> View attachment 639118
> View attachment 639119



I had a video of his last flt, will try to look it up. He had tears in his eyes. 

For some people it is not a job.

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## TsAr

PanzerKiel said:


> Air Commodore Shigri, Wing Commander at that time. He's the one who had that painful flight back.


Are you talking about Air Commodore (retired) Shahid Hamid Shigri....Surprised he was not let go off...

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## GriffinsRule

PanzerKiel said:


> Air Commodore Shigri, Wing Commander at that time. He's the one who had that painful flight back.


Was it Sqn Ldr Azmat the No.4 whose aircraft was hit?


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## Raider 21

TsAr said:


> Are you talking about Air Commodore (retired) Shahid Hamid Shigri....Surprised he was not let go off...


Unfortunate but safe. Should have never happened.



Scorpiooo said:


> 2 PAF Falcons and a JF-17 Lined up at Izmir During 100th anniversary of Turkish Airforce F16s
> View attachment 639254


Great shot. 85726 is the Viper that shot down 85720.

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## Tom_Cruise

TsAr said:


> Are you talking about Air Commodore (retired) Shahid Hamid Shigri....Surprised he was not let go off...



A classic case of knowing too many people in the heirachy to get away with such a blunder. 

If a younger pilot committed such a costly error that could have killed another pilot, would he have gotten away with it?

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## airomerix

Blacklight said:


> I had a video of his last flt, will try to look it up. He had tears in his eyes.
> 
> For some people it is not a job.



if you're referring to the video in which he is communicating with the vipers then yes, it was leaked. Unfortunately.

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## truthfollower

airomerix said:


> if you're referring to the video in which he is communicating with the vipers then yes, it was leaked. Unfortunately.



via whatsapp forwarded messages most probably?



Adam_Khan said:


> View attachment 639220



And there were no SOPs for exercises before 2006?


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## airomerix

truthfollower said:


> via whatsapp forwarded messages most probably?



That too. The FO of the aircraft was not very responsible in this manner since he made that video.


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## Safriz

PanzerKiel said:


> Air Commodore Shigri, Wing Commander at that time. He's the one who had that painful flight back.


Was that the second "own goal".
There was another in the 80s when Falcons were intercepting an Afghan/ soviet air intrusion?
Don't remember much about it though.

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## Blacklight

airomerix said:


> if you're referring to the video in which he is communicating with the vipers then yes, it was leaked. Unfortunately.


Not unfortunate, it shows our uniform brothers dedication and passion.


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## airomerix

Blacklight said:


> Not unfortunate, it shows our uniform brothers dedication and passion.



I'm sure it was eye candy for most of us. But cockpit footages are highly sensitive. You can potentially collect information related to callsigns, squawk codes and frequencies from the 'background noise'. 

There was a strong reaction by the AHQ later towards the FO. It was for a reason.

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## Safriz

airomerix said:


> if you're referring to the video in which he is communicating with the vipers then yes, it was leaked. Unfortunately.


These leaks are often unintended and unfortunate.
I run a few large social media platforms, with others of course.
I was forwarded a video of Chinese JH-7 flying alongside PAF mirages , by a close friend.
It was a good video, recorded by the Mirage pilot himself.
I watermarked it and posted on one of the Facebook pages I operated.
Video went viral and within a few days it was everywhere.
About a week later I received a message from the Mirage pilot himself asking me to take down the video.
I already knew his name because the friend of mine who forwarded me the video said that it was recorded by squadron leader XYZ.
So I knew the request is genuine.
I deleted the video from my Facebook pages and files a copyright claim against other pages who also posted the video. It got removed from Facebook.
A month later the same squadron leader contacted me again asking me to get the video removed from YouTube as it was then threading on YouTube.
He was the original owner of the video but had no way of proving it. But the video had my watermark so I became the owner of the video.
یعنی ٹوپی میرے سر پہ
I made multiple copyright claims on YouTube and the video disappeared from YouTube.
Then it again appeared on Dailymotion, Twitter and other video hosting sites.
The squadron leader again contacted me and this time I had to politely refuses any further actions from me as I had enough.
I asked him why he is spending so much time and effort in searching the internet for the video and trying to take it down?
He said that the Chinese are not happy as the configuration in which JH-7 were flying alongside him was not to be made public.
I asked him , why he released the video in the first place?
He said he is from a certain cadet college and posted the video in a Watts app group only populated by his cadet college colleagues he trusted.
It made sense because I knew that my friend studied in the same cadet college.
He asked me how I got the video and I refused to tell him , because my friend who gave me the video was also his friend and I didn't want to cause friction between them.
I then contacted my friend who originally gave me the video. Told him the whole story and he was well and truly ashamed.
He said that the Watts app group has many serving servicemen who regularly post quite sensitive material on there, but nobody leaks it out of the group. That particular video didn't look sensitive and he just thought it's some Chinese planes flying with Pakistani planes, which looked cool and he forwarded the video to me without thinking much. And that the squadron leader never asked people to not show the video to outsiders.
My friend is not in military, but in oil and gas industry.
I don't know what consequences the squadron leader faced. But I still see that video on the internet, as whatever goes on the internet, stays there forever.
Morale of the story is that servicemen should not post sensitive material on Watts app groups in the first place.

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## FuturePAF

Safriz said:


> These leaks are often unintended and unfortunate.
> I run a few large social media platforms, with others of course.
> I was forwarded a video of Chinese JH-7 flying alongside PAF mirages , by a close friend.
> It was a good video, recorded by the Mirage pilot himself.
> I watermarked it and posted on one of the Facebook pages I operated.
> Video went viral and within a few days it was everywhere.
> About a week later I received a message from the Mirage pilot himself asking me to take down the video.
> I already knew his name because the friend of mine who forwarded me the video said that it was recorded by squadron leader XYZ.
> So I knew the request is genuine.
> I deleted the video from my Facebook pages and files a copyright claim against other pages who also posted the video. It got removed from Facebook.
> A month later the same squadron leader contacted me again asking me to get the video removed from YouTube as it was then threading on YouTube.
> He was the original owner of the video but had no way of proving it. But the video had my watermark so I became the owner of the video.
> یعنی ٹوپی میرے سر پہ
> I made multiple copyright claims on YouTube and the video disappeared from YouTube.
> Then it again appeared on Dailymotion, Twitter and other video hosting sites.
> The squadron leader again contacted me and this time I had to politely refuses any further actions from me as I had enough.
> I asked him why he is spending so much time and effort in searching the internet for the video and trying to take it down?
> He said that the Chinese are not happy as the configuration in which JH-7 were flying alongside him was not to be made public.
> I asked him , why he released the video in the first place?
> He said he is from a certain cadet college and posted the video in a Watts app group only populated by his cadet college colleagues he trusted.
> It made sense because I knew that my friend studied in the same cadet college.
> He asked me how I got the video and I refused to tell him , because my friend who gave me the video was also his friend and I didn't want to cause friction between them.
> I then contacted my friend who originally gave me the video. Told him the whole story and he was well and truly ashamed.
> He said that the Watts app group has many serving servicemen who regularly post quite sensitive material on there, but nobody leaks it out of the group. That particular video didn't look sensitive and he just thought it's some Chinese planes flying with Pakistani planes, which looked cool and he forwarded the video to me without thinking much. And that the squadron leader never asked people to not show the video to outsiders.
> My friend is not in military, but in oil and gas industry.
> I don't know what consequences the squadron leader faced. But I still see that video on the internet, as whatever goes on the internet, stays there forever.
> Morale of the story is that servicemen should not post sensitive material on Watts app groups in the first place.



Servicemen and especially cadets may not know what is truly considered sensitive. We need some kind of filter (preferable a human filter) on all communications that requires posts to be vetted before they are allowed to go out.

https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2015/8/21/9189591/air-force-loose-tweets-destroy-fleets-slogan



Blacklight said:


> Wondering why the Viper is unarmed, possibly because it was only doing a visual check?



Would love to see an intercept with a Sniper Pod, although if they can do an ID with a sniper pod they would not have to get this close if this was an actual intercept and not a salute to the air chief.

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## Safriz

Yasser76 said:


> Air forces do this sometimes for training, just intercept an airliner obtain visual ID and RTB


Makes sense because the jet is a two seat/ trainer version.



PanzerKiel said:


> Anyone here in knowledge of an incident in recent history whereby a PAF F-16 took out a PAF Mirage using a live AAM in a training sortie?


Mirages don't need to be taken down by F-16.
They regularly fall off the sky anyway

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## Incog_nito

Are we working with US to get some addition 22 new F-16s?


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## Imran Khan

Incog_nito said:


> Are we working with US to get some addition 22 new F-16s?


ap pesy de deen work usa khud ker le ga

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## Incog_nito

Imran Khan said:


> ap pesy de deen work usa khud ker le ga


Things will get better soon.

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## Imran Khan

Incog_nito said:


> Things will get better soon.


things are better now . nothing is to be worry pakistan has successfully inducted 150+ 4th gen fighters .

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## TsAr

Knuckles said:


> Unfortunate but safe. Should have never happened.
> 
> 
> Great shot. 85726 is the Viper that shot down 85720.


If I had known about this incident before would have surely discussed with him......Unfortunately he passed away in a car accident....

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## PanzerKiel

TsAr said:


> If I had known about this incident before would have surely discussed with him......Unfortunately he passed away in a car accident....


Yeah , March 2007.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-vs-iaf-command-and-control-systems.82343/page-5#post-1303685

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## Armchair

what happened was two F-16s were on hot persuit near the Afghan border and were asked to abort and return back to base. One of them didn't listen and the other was trying to persuade him. Finally he gave up and was leaving so decided to go ahead and turn away ahead of the first F-16, to show he was leaving. As he pulled forward of the first F-16, the latter let loose an AAM which was aimed at the retreating Soviet aircraft, but in that inopportune moment, was dead center of the other F-16. 

He just had enough time to eject. Later he was so upset he gave the other fellow some _litther_. But I think it was both of their fault. Anyways, the fellow who did the own goal had a long and illustrious career in the PAF.

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## ziaulislam

Armchair said:


> what happened was two F-16s were on hot persuit near the Afghan border and were asked to abort and return back to base. One of them didn't listen and the other was trying to persuade him. Finally he gave up and was leaving so decided to go ahead and turn away ahead of the first F-16, to show he was leaving. As he pulled forward of the first F-16, the latter let loose an AAM which was aimed at the retreating Soviet aircraft, but in that inopportune moment, was dead center of the other F-16.
> 
> He just had enough time to eject. Later he was so upset he gave the other fellow some _litther_. But I think it was both of their fault. Anyways, the fellow who did the own goal had a long and illustrious career in the PAF.


if this is true, i hope this isnt the discipline situation currently ..
I am surprised BOTH had a long career

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## TsAr

Armchair said:


> what happened was two F-16s were on hot persuit near the Afghan border and were asked to abort and return back to base. One of them didn't listen and the other was trying to persuade him. Finally he gave up and was leaving so decided to go ahead and turn away ahead of the first F-16, to show he was leaving. As he pulled forward of the first F-16, the latter let loose an AAM which was aimed at the retreating Soviet aircraft, but in that inopportune moment, was dead center of the other F-16.
> 
> He just had enough time to eject. Later he was so upset he gave the other fellow some _litther_. But I think it was both of their fault. Anyways, the fellow who did the own goal had a long and illustrious career in the PAF.


I think the pilot who did the own goal was never allowed to fly again, @Knuckles could you shed some light.

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## PanzerKiel

TsAr said:


> I think the pilot who did the own goal was never allowed to fly again, @Knuckles could you shed some light.



Both aircraft of 14 Sqn 
F-16A, flown by Squadron Leader Amjad Javed was the one who fired AIM9. 

Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar Khan was the victim, flying F16A Block 15S.





Shahid Sikandar



PanzerKiel said:


> Both aircraft of 14 Sqn
> F-16A, flown by Squadron Leader Amjad Javed was the one who fired AIM9.
> 
> Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar Khan was the victim, flying F16A Block 15S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shahid Sikandar




Narration of incident, as narrated by Sir Shahid Sikander, the victim pilot

On 29th April 1987, Wg Cdr Amjad Javed and Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar, both from No.14 Squadron flying F-16As, were scheduled to fly an escort mission to the north, and on the same day they both escorted a PAF C-130 and a PIA Fokker to Chitral. On the way back the pair were vectored to Miranshah---2 adversary formations (4 aircraf each) were violating PAF airspace. They were told to engage, both aircraft were below JOKER. Initially vectored to 270, bandits were at 27,000 feet heading 090. The F-16As were at 6,000 feet at 600 knots, both zoomed to fire face shots with AIM-9Ls. Bandits turned north. The pair were in the TAC spread on No.2's right, bandits went saw the F-16s on their tails, No.2 switched lock to last bandit(MiG-23) which was at 4.1nm, negative ROC and called the leader. Leader didnt hear the call or misheard it, trying to radar lock to the rear left bandit, which in mistake was No.2, misidentified this locked aircraft was his own No.2. Leader switched from AIM-9L to AIM-9P, and hit No.2 as it went into a dive hitting the right wing. No.2 ejected around 29,000 feet almost 10 nm in Afghan territory. A search and rescue team picked up No.2 around 7 hours later, and No.2 was back at Kamra the same night, and was back flying F-16s 4 days later. However the issue was such a bizarre one, Leader unfortunately lost his job, and No.2 was posted out to PAF Academy(FIS/Sherdils 89, before coming back to No.14 in 1990 again on F-16s). 85726 F-16A was the aircraft that shot 85720 F-16A in this case of fratricide.

As narrated by Behram Shahid, his son....

@TsAr



PanzerKiel said:


> Both aircraft of 14 Sqn
> F-16A, flown by Squadron Leader Amjad Javed was the one who fired AIM9.
> 
> Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar Khan was the victim, flying F16A Block 15S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shahid Sikandar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Narration of incident, as narrated by Sir Shahid Sikander, the victim pilot
> 
> On 29th April 1987, Wg Cdr Amjad Javed and Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar, both from No.14 Squadron flying F-16As, were scheduled to fly an escort mission to the north, and on the same day they both escorted a PAF C-130 and a PIA Fokker to Chitral. On the way back the pair were vectored to Miranshah---2 adversary formations (4 aircraf each) were violating PAF airspace. They were told to engage, both aircraft were below JOKER. Initially vectored to 270, bandits were at 27,000 feet heading 090. The F-16As were at 6,000 feet at 600 knots, both zoomed to fire face shots with AIM-9Ls. Bandits turned north. The pair were in the TAC spread on No.2's right, bandits went saw the F-16s on their tails, No.2 switched lock to last bandit(MiG-23) which was at 4.1nm, negative ROC and called the leader. Leader didnt hear the call or misheard it, trying to radar lock to the rear left bandit, which in mistake was No.2, misidentified this locked aircraft was his own No.2. Leader switched from AIM-9L to AIM-9P, and hit No.2 as it went into a dive hitting the right wing. No.2 ejected around 29,000 feet almost 10 nm in Afghan territory. A search and rescue team picked up No.2 around 7 hours later, and No.2 was back at Kamra the same night, and was back flying F-16s 4 days later. However the issue was such a bizarre one, Leader unfortunately lost his job, and No.2 was posted out to PAF Academy(FIS/Sherdils 89, before coming back to No.14 in 1990 again on F-16s). 85726 F-16A was the aircraft that shot 85720 F-16A in this case of fratricide.
> 
> As narrated by Behram Shahid, his son....
> 
> @TsAr



Just to clarify in advance.. The term JOKER used in the above narration...

*Joker* (fuel) is *slang* for a pre-briefed fuel state above Bingo at which separation/bugout/event termination should begin. 

Bingo is a critical fuel state, the minimum fuel required to reach back home.

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## Arsalan

F-16 elephant walk
PAF Bholari





PAF F-16, Bholari Airbase

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## airomerix

Arsalan said:


> PAF F-16, Bholari Airbase
> View attachment 639708



This is Anatolian Eagle 2006 Exercise, Konya AFB, Turkey. Not Bholari. Notice the dutch F-16s in the back

Also, we never flock our F-16s like that since its a high-value asset.

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## PanzerKiel

airomerix said:


> This is Anatolian Eagle 2006 Exercise, Konya AFB, Turkey. Not Bholari. Notice the dutch F-16s in the back
> 
> Also, we never flock our F-16s like that since its a high-value asset.



Lolx, was about to post the same....

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## Raider 21

Armchair said:


> what happened was two F-16s were on hot persuit near the Afghan border and were asked to abort and return back to base. One of them didn't listen and the other was trying to persuade him. Finally he gave up and was leaving so decided to go ahead and turn away ahead of the first F-16, to show he was leaving. As he pulled forward of the first F-16, the latter let loose an AAM which was aimed at the retreating Soviet aircraft, but in that inopportune moment, was dead center of the other F-16.
> 
> He just had enough time to eject. Later he was so upset he gave the other fellow some _litther_. But I think it was both of their fault. Anyways, the fellow who did the own goal had a long and illustrious career in the PAF.


Bullshit, at least most of it



ziaulislam said:


> if this is true, i hope this isnt the discipline situation currently ..
> I am surprised BOTH had a long career


No it is not true sir

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## Raider 21

TsAr said:


> I think the pilot who did the own goal was never allowed to fly again, @Knuckles could you shed some light.


Yes unfortunately didn't fly again in PAF. He flew for over 25 years with PIA. The one who ejected is also flying these days on fast-Jet platforms

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## PanzerKiel

PanzerKiel said:


> Both aircraft of 14 Sqn
> F-16A, flown by Squadron Leader Amjad Javed was the one who fired AIM9.
> 
> Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar Khan was the victim, flying F16A Block 15S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shahid Sikandar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Narration of incident, as narrated by Sir Shahid Sikander, the victim pilot
> 
> On 29th April 1987, Wg Cdr Amjad Javed and Flight Lieutenant Shahid Sikandar, both from No.14 Squadron flying F-16As, were scheduled to fly an escort mission to the north, and on the same day they both escorted a PAF C-130 and a PIA Fokker to Chitral. On the way back the pair were vectored to Miranshah---2 adversary formations (4 aircraf each) were violating PAF airspace. They were told to engage, both aircraft were below JOKER. Initially vectored to 270, bandits were at 27,000 feet heading 090. The F-16As were at 6,000 feet at 600 knots, both zoomed to fire face shots with AIM-9Ls. Bandits turned north. The pair were in the TAC spread on No.2's right, bandits went saw the F-16s on their tails, No.2 switched lock to last bandit(MiG-23) which was at 4.1nm, negative ROC and called the leader. Leader didnt hear the call or misheard it, trying to radar lock to the rear left bandit, which in mistake was No.2, misidentified this locked aircraft was his own No.2. Leader switched from AIM-9L to AIM-9P, and hit No.2 as it went into a dive hitting the right wing. No.2 ejected around 29,000 feet almost 10 nm in Afghan territory. A search and rescue team picked up No.2 around 7 hours later, and No.2 was back at Kamra the same night, and was back flying F-16s 4 days later. However the issue was such a bizarre one, Leader unfortunately lost his job, and No.2 was posted out to PAF Academy(FIS/Sherdils 89, before coming back to No.14 in 1990 again on F-16s). 85726 F-16A was the aircraft that shot 85720 F-16A in this case of fratricide.
> 
> As narrated by Behram Shahid, his son....
> 
> @TsAr
> 
> 
> 
> Just to clarify in advance.. The term JOKER used in the above narration...
> 
> *Joker* (fuel) is *slang* for a pre-briefed fuel state above Bingo at which separation/bugout/event termination should begin.
> 
> Bingo is a critical fuel state, the minimum fuel required to reach back home.



This whole incident was quoted by B. Shahid, @behram at PDF... In June 2010...

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-f-16-milestone-pilots.57655/page-2#post-918286

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-f-16-milestone-pilots.57655/page-3#post-940231


@Knuckles reminds me of someone.....

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## Raider 21

PanzerKiel said:


> This whole incident was quoted by B. Shahid, @behram at PDF... In June 2010...
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-f-16-milestone-pilots.57655/page-2#post-918286
> 
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-f-16-milestone-pilots.57655/page-3#post-940231
> 
> 
> @Knuckles reminds me of someone.....


I lost my email address, and lost access to it. Back then was in high school. Quoted one of the brothers

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## PanzerKiel

Knuckles said:


> I lost my email address, and lost access to it. Back then was in high school. Quoted one of the brothers



Excellent, good to make your acquaintance again.

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## Armchair

Knuckles said:


> Bullshit, at least most of it
> 
> 
> No it is not true sir



I gave the real story not the white washed version.

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## Raider 21

Armchair said:


> I gave the real story not the white washed version.


I felt that was the brown washed version that you wrote

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## Arsalan

airomerix said:


> This is Anatolian Eagle 2006 Exercise, Konya AFB, Turkey. Not Bholari. Notice the dutch F-16s in the back
> 
> Also, we never flock our F-16s like that since its a high-value asset.





PanzerKiel said:


> Lolx, was about to post the same....


Well since i got this one internet i wont vouch for it. You both may be correct, its most likely.

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## Zulfiqar

Arsalan said:


> Well since i got this one internet i wont vouch for it. You both may be correct, its most likely.



He is right as I saw a similar image many years ago.

Plus these are pre-MLU birds. IIRC Bholari did not exist back then as a main base.

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## Irfan Baloch

fake news by Indian twitteratis 

https://www.dawn.com/news/1562612/f...16-posing-as-dawncom-surfaces-on-social-media

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## Nomad40

Irfan Baloch said:


> fake news by Indian twitteratis
> 
> https://www.dawn.com/news/1562612/f...16-posing-as-dawncom-surfaces-on-social-media


Are you kidding me what nonsensical cowards!!!


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## Dil Pakistan

*My heart is bleeding posting this video.*

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## Pak-Canuck

Irfan Baloch said:


> fake news by Indian twitteratis
> 
> https://www.dawn.com/news/1562612/f...16-posing-as-dawncom-surfaces-on-social-media



LOLOLOLOL wet dreams of wanting to shoot down a PAF F-16 is getting the better of them since they conjured up the imagination of shooting down one on Feb 27th 2019 while losing a Su-30 and Mig-21 and shooting one of their own down which they want to portray on us now

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## PanzerKiel

Dil Pakistan said:


> *My heart is bleeding posting this video.*



For me, 5:52 till 6:05 was the most painful.... Like he's just flying towards his final destination... Peaceful.

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## Dil Pakistan

PanzerKiel said:


> For me, 5:52 till 6:05 was the most painful.... Like he's just flying towards his final destination... Peaceful.



Pakistan lost a great guy in a very unfortunate incident.....he could have been our next M. M. Alam or Bhatti or Nur Khan.

Alas! it wasn't meant to be.

May his soul rest in eternal peace.....what a guy and what a loss.

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## araz

Dil Pakistan said:


> Pakistan lost a great guy in a very unfortunate incident.....he could have been our next M. M. Alam or Bhatti or Nur Khan.
> 
> Alas! it wasn't meant to be.
> 
> May his soul rest in eternal peace.....what a guy and what a loss.


Qadar Allaho ma Shaa fa'ala. This is what we believe in. It was Allah's will for him to be a shaheed so it happened.
May he rest in peace Ameen.
A

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## Dil Pakistan

araz said:


> Qadar Allaho ma Shaa fa'ala. This is what we believe in. It was Allah's will for him to be a shaheed so it happened.
> May he rest in peace Ameen.
> A



Ameen.


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## Ghessan

Men like Wing Commander Noman Akram though left us for their good but left their legacy to be followed by the young in uniform. 

Since PAF is not short of people like him, this land of the pure will always regard them in high esteem as they deserve highest place here in our hearts and in Jannah. 

You are destined to the closest place to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) young man and we are proud of you, ameen.

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## Scorpiooo

AIM-9 Sidewinder


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## Talon

*Indus Viper...!


*
(Unconfirmed)

@HRK @khanasifm @fatman17 @Armchair

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## mingle

Hodor said:


> *Indus Viper...!
> 
> 
> *
> (Unconfirmed)
> 
> @HRK @khanasifm @fatman17 @Armchair


Participants??


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## Talon

mingle said:


> Participants??


I knew people would confuse it with the exercise,this is something else..

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## Tamiyah

Hodor said:


> I knew people would confuse it with the exercise,this is something else..


I'm sorry.
Can you elaborate that what do you mean by "something else.."?


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## Tipu7

Hodor said:


> *Indus Viper...!
> 
> 
> *
> (Unconfirmed)
> 
> @HRK @khanasifm @fatman17 @Armchair


Blk70? Or EDA based stuff?

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## StormBreaker

Hodor said:


> *Indus Viper...!
> 
> 
> *
> (Unconfirmed)
> 
> @HRK @khanasifm @fatman17 @Armchair


@Blacklight Sir ?

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## mingle

Hodor said:


> I knew people would confuse it with the exercise,this is something else..


Hodor plz elaborate jiger



Hodor said:


> I knew people would confuse it with the exercise,this is something else..


Means local MRO for our vipers? Or LM moving to Pak will built under name of Indus vipers.?

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## Khan Sahab

Way too many rumours going around these days. Let's just wait and see what actually transpires. Till then I would take everything with a pinch of salt.

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## Blacklight

StormBreaker said:


> @Blacklight Sir ?


Brother, If I say something, kids start going apeshit, best If I sit back and enjoy my double espresso.

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## mingle

Khan Sahab said:


> Way too many rumours going around these days. Let's just wait and see what actually transpires. Till then I would take everything with a pinch of salt.


America is open now for business

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## Kingslayerr

If i remember correctly we have also sent jeffs to turkey for Anatolian eagle. If we have does anybody know how was their performance?



Hodor said:


> *Indus Viper...!
> 
> 
> *
> (Unconfirmed)
> 
> @HRK @khanasifm @fatman17 @Armchair


What was it? Picture is not loading.


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## Dreamer.

Blacklight said:


> Brother, If I say something, kids start going apeshit, best If I sit back and enjoy my double espresso.


You could say something with a disclaimer. (like hodor did)


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## Khan Sahab

mingle said:


> America is open now for business



I understand that but I am just being wary of unsubstantiated rumors. America is and was always open for business as long as you bring cash to the table. All the supposed acquisition through CSF are very iffy until they actually materialise.

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## capricorn5192

mingle said:


> Hodor plz elaborate jiger
> 
> 
> Means local MRO for our vipers? Or LM moving to Pak will built under name of Indus vipers.?


In March 2020, Indian Defense Journalist tweeted something similar:-


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1240887776293216258

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## Scorpiooo

Hodor said:


> I knew people would confuse it with the exercise,this is something else..


@Hodor. something related to medication of our existing F16 or possible Egyptians f16 locally at Pakistan?
As PAF cant afford to send existing f16 to usa and can blocked there somehow, and upgration in Turkey not possible due restrictions

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## TheTallGuy

Blacklight said:


> Brother, If I say something, kids start going apeshit, best If I sit back and enjoy my double espresso.



are you in need of Vigo? for hunting purposes? something from south Africa will suffice?

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## Scorpiooo

Blacklight said:


> Brother, If I say something, kids start going apeshit, best If I sit back and enjoy my double espresso.


Do want to have some chocolate cookies too ?

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## Pakistani Fighter

Blacklight said:


> Brother, If I say something, kids start going apeshit, best If I sit back and enjoy my double espresso.





Blacklight said:


> Brother, If I say something, kids start going apeshit, best If I sit back and enjoy my double espresso.


Plz tell in PM


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## StormBreaker

Blacklight said:


> Brother, If I say something, kids start going apeshit, best If I sit back and enjoy my double espresso.


One cup, No sugar please



Pakistani Fighter said:


> Plz tell in PM


Lol, Sabr rakhja

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## Ultima Thule

StormBreaker said:


> One cup, No sugar please


without sugar coffee will become extremely bitter

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## StormBreaker

capricorn5192 said:


> In March 2020, Indian Defense Journalist tweeted something similar:-
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1240887776293216258


If this happens, I will go to him and stuff gulab jamuns In his f..in mouth, Can’t imagine, F-16 production in Pak



IAU said:


> without sugar coffee will become extremely bitter


Bachpan mein suna tha “The Bigger the Better”,

Dunya ke rang dekh kar andaza hoa hai

“Bitter the Better”

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## Mumm-Ra

Hodor said:


> *Indus Viper...!
> 
> 
> *
> (Unconfirmed)
> 
> @HRK @khanasifm @fatman17 @Armchair



About Time


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## Mig hunter

What the hell is going on
1. C 130 Js
2. AH-1 Zs
3. Indus Vipers
Rumours Rumours and rumours
It seems like circus is going on and waste of band width

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## Scorpiooo

StormBreaker said:


> If this happens, I will go to him and stuff gulab jamuns In his f..in mouth, Can’t imagine, F-16 production in Pak
> 
> 
> Bachpan mein suna tha “The Bigger the Better”,
> 
> Dunya ke rang dekh kar andaza hoa hai
> 
> “Bitter the Better”


Not easy to digest news sach news seriously


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## Ultima Thule

Mig hunter said:


> What the hell is going on
> 1. C 130 Js
> 2. AH-1 Zs
> 3. Indus Vipers
> Rumours Rumours and rumours
> It seems like circus is going on and waste of band width


FIRST RUMORS APPEARS THAN COMES CONFIRMATION/PICS ETC ETC

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## Syed1.

New truck ki batti

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## mingle

capricorn5192 said:


> In March 2020, Indian Defense Journalist tweeted something similar:-
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1240887776293216258


I read his tweet too I also agree with him LM has 62 billion for F-16 programme from US Govt blk 70 satandard so it is possible offer some CSF and line of credit to Pak can produce vipers locally is cost effective way any way


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## Pakistani Fighter

Hodor said:


> *Indus Viper...!
> 
> 
> *
> (Unconfirmed)
> 
> @HRK @khanasifm @fatman17 @Armchair


Just confirmed. It was an excercise

Maybe something related to that SU30s incident


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## Scorpiooo

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Just confirmed. It was an excercise
> 
> Maybe something related to that SU30s incident


Can you share with us


----------



## StormBreaker

mingle said:


> I read his tweet too I also agree with him LM has 62 billion for F-16 programme from US Govt blk 70 satandard so it is possible offer some CSF and line of credit to Pak can produce vipers locally is cost effective way any way


Don’t forget,
Such a move has consequences,
Possibly to sabotage the Thunder program and become a kabab ki haddi in BVR procurements from China...

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## mingle

StormBreaker said:


> Don’t forget,
> Such a move has consequences,
> Possibly to sabotage the Thunder program and become a kabab ki haddi in BVR procurements from China...


Both F16 and JF17 are operational requirements of PAF they both belongs to different class plus PAF needs 500 jetts.

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## fanna4paf2



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## TheTallGuy

Let me put this in perspective honestly, 
*F-16C/D Block 70/72*
It has to be fakenews about F-16s because it cant be the Block 70 or 72 because MOU needs to be signed LM needs to declare publicly. and the if they were said to be 36 then at-least 54 months program of manufacture and then arms contracts are required. with freeze in military budget and 5 billion$ purchase be it CSF (if we had this much amount in CSF...it is far fetched...and yes it me saying far fetched!) 
*INDUS VIPER(Assembly line)*
Not Possible - requires LM investment in Production factory and Developed eco-system of military production which we do not have...just not possible and still it requires by US law to declare publicly...so just not possible.
*AH-1Z ZULU COBRA*
1-2 already delivered. i think this is correct news.
*C-130J & used C-130J-30 (5+4)*
Complete fake news.
*RJAF F-16ADF 16+1 and 13 x in-service PAF F-16ADF (to be upgrade to MLU) *
This is a possibility...as wartime attrition replacement but US did not responded on it. 
*
Sorry, as i understand from Jun-2019 there are no new purchase what we received and you have seen are orders of 2016-18. since jun-19 all the money is spend on spares and trying our best to reach 14+1 wartime stock and fuel reserves.

We shall fight with what we have now..PAF has enough edge for 2-3 years of peacetime... *

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## The Raven

On the one hand people are talking about scrounging for second gen used Mirages IIIs from Egypt, and on the other a Block-70/72 production line in Pakistan. Go figure!

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## ziaulislam

TheTallGuy said:


> Let me put this in perspective honestly,
> *F-16C/D Block 70/72*
> It has to be fakenews about F-16s because it cant be the Block 70 or 72 because MOU needs to be signed LM needs to declare publicly. and the if they were said to be 36 then at-least 54 months program of manufacture and then arms contracts are required. with freeze in military budget and 5 billion$ purchase be it CSF (if we had this much amount in CSF...it is far fetched...and yes it me saying far fetched!)
> *INDUS VIPER(Assembly line)*
> Not Possible - requires LM investment in Production factory and Developed eco-system of military production which we do not have...just not possible and still it requires by US law to declare publicly...so just not possible.
> *AH-1Z ZULU COBRA*
> 1-2 already delivered. i think this is correct news.
> *C-130J & used C-130J-30 (5+4)*
> Complete fake news.
> *RJAF F-16ADF 16+1 and 13 x in-service PAF F-16ADF (to be upgrade to MLU) *
> This is a possibility...as wartime attrition replacement but US did not responded on it.
> *
> Sorry, as i understand from Jun-2019 there are no new purchase what we received and you have seen are orders of 2016-18. since jun-19 all the money is spend on spares and trying our best to reach 14+1 wartime stock and fuel reserves.
> 
> We shall fight with what we have now..PAF has enough edge for 2-3 years of peacetime... *


Used equipment including c130 & f16s is possible as pompeo and trump just need to say yes...they can by pass every one..this was how it happened with jordan ones..was all of sudden..
There are plenty of countries with surplus f16s & c130s

Rest is probably not true untill a notification is released ..

Remeber issue today is cost...i believe if PAF paid in cash it will get the f16s even b70s..as USA knows options arent as limited as it were in 1990s...on same side PAF also doesnt thunk its worth buying f16s at cost of 4 jf17s..especially since future isnt grantee with it (sanctions always a possiblity)

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## Incog_nito

Are used F-16 Block-15s still in PAF acquisition list?


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## SABRE

StormBreaker said:


> Don’t forget,
> Such a move has consequences,
> Possibly to sabotage the Thunder program and become a kabab ki haddi in BVR procurements from China...



It might also come at the cost of either severely scaling back CPEC or completely abandoning it, which invariably means doing the same with Pakistan-China relations. The US is not in the business of sharing technology unless they get something much bigger out of it; politically or financially or both. Abandoning Thunder programme - or the CPEC - would be like abandoning Pakistan itself.

The US has had suspicions that Pakistan might share the tech & experience of F-16's finished product with China, and hence the stationing of the US personnel in Pakistan and F-16s not being allowed to leave the country. Giving away a production line, which provides greater insight into the F-16's technology (that too, Blk 70/72), would be unfathomable for them under this fear.

Assuming that what is being implied here - the idea of a new F-16 aka Indus Viper - it is most likely an F-16 Blk 70/72 to be produced by LM in the US based on PAF's requirements. At best, two squadrons might be purchased. It might be prudent, however, if we could secure some spare parts production and sizable supply of AMRAAMs & Sidewinders before hand. If the US stipulates that the spare parts production & subsequent usage takes place under the supervision of its personnel, so be it.

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## StormBreaker

SABRE said:


> It might also come at the cost of either severely scaling back CPEC or completely abandoning it, which invariably means doing the same with Pakistan-China relations. The US is not in the business of sharing technology unless they get something much bigger out of it; politically or financially or both. Abandoning Thunder programme - or the CPEC - would be like abandoning Pakistan itself.
> 
> The US has had suspicions that Pakistan might share the tech & experience of F-16's finished product with China, and hence the stationing of the US personnel in Pakistan and F-16s not being allowed to leave the country. Giving away a production line, which provides greater insight into the F-16's technology (that too, Blk 70/72), would be unfathomable for them under this fear.
> 
> Assuming that what is being implied here - the idea of a new F-16 aka Indus Viper - it is most likely an F-16 Blk 70/72 to be produced by LM in the US based on PAF's requirements. At best, two squadrons might be purchased. It might be prudent, however, if we could secure some spare parts production and sizable supply of AMRAAMs & Sidewinders before hand. If the US stipulates that the spare parts production & subsequent usage takes place under the supervision of its personnel, so be it.


Don’t forget, just like Peace Gate was the name given to MLU program, another procurement/upgradation program which isn't Block 70/72 could be given a unique name “Indus Viper”

@Blacklight @Caprxl ?

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## Blacklight

StormBreaker said:


> Don’t forget, just like Peace Gate was the name given to MLU program, another procurement/upgradation program which isn't Block 70/72 could be given a unique name “Indus Viper”
> 
> @Blacklight @Caprxl ?


As per PDF official policy outlined my Sir @Arsalan Nothing is happening, nothing is coming. Have a nice day!
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/rumors-finally-ah-1z-are-coming.671100/page-16#post-12433996

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## Arsalan

Blacklight said:


> As per PDF official policy outlined my Sir @Arsalan Nothing is happening, nothing is coming. Have a nice day!
> https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/rumors-finally-ah-1z-are-coming.671100/page-16#post-12433996


O come on man. I am just avoiding venturing into rumor mongering. Right now i am not saying they have arrived and landed as some people are, *neither* am i saying they are NOT coming! 
I think this is how it should be, especially as far as official policy is concerned.  

Wait and See!

The reports of two having arrived have been reported by online chatter as well as some military people. On the other hand, it have been denied by many other military people too as you are aware. So the best thing will be not to take sides on this and wait for the confirmation. That is when i will edit the thread title and remove the "rumor" word from it.

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## SABRE

StormBreaker said:


> Don’t forget, just like Peace Gate was the name given to MLU program, another procurement/upgradation program which isn't Block 70/72 could be given a unique name “Indus Viper”
> 
> @Blacklight @Caprxl ?



Of course, there is that. AND then there is the possibility of this whole thing being nothing more than a hot air bubble.


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## Caprxl

StormBreaker said:


> Don’t forget, just like Peace Gate was the name given to MLU program, another procurement/upgradation program which isn't Block 70/72 could be given a unique name “Indus Viper”
> 
> @Blacklight @Caprxl ?




Agreed, but as @Blacklight said,
Let us wait brother.

Jaha itna wait kia ha, let us wait a bit more.

Until something lands , anything can go wrong , many factors.

So I will say to keep a lid for sometime, those who matter on the forum & understand they know what is happening as bread crumbs are being dropped in these one liners from some informed members.

It should be enough for us for the time being .

As they say,
 "_*Where there is smoke , there is fire"*_
In the end we all want best for

No need to bang our heads on the wall for these innocent brothers.

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## Rahil khan



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## Dreamer.

Caprxl said:


> As they say,
> "_*Where there is smoke , there is fire"*_


Not always my friend. Sometimes where there's smoke, there's a smoke grenade.

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## Caprxl

Dreamer. said:


> Not always my friend. Sometimes where there's smoke, there's a smoke grenade.



Yes, agreed. The thing is _"Not always" _as you stated. It goes both ways making a classic example of Schrödinger's cat. 

Though few know it is a fire or a smoke grenade 

Regards,

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## krash

StormBreaker said:


> Don’t forget, just like Peace Gate was the name given to MLU program, another procurement/upgradation program which isn't Block 70/72 could be given a unique name “Indus Viper”
> 
> @Blacklight @Caprxl ?



Don't believe Peace Gate was the name of the MLU program. Could you please confirm this?

Peace Gate I to IV were the names of the F-16 orders Pakistan placed in the 80s. We received the 6 from Peace Gate I and 34 from Peace Gate II. The 11 from Peace Gate III and the 17 built out of the 60 from Peace Gate IV were embargoed. Due to this 'disturbed' history with the "Peace Gate" programs the name of the 18 Block 52+ order was changed to "Peace Drive". Otherwise, traditionally, the name is kept the same while adding to the number with each successive order. For the sake of conversation, if any new F-16s are bought, the program's name would probably be Peace Drive II.

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## GriffinsRule

Indus Viper, if memory serves me right is a name of a PAF exercise.


Edit: yep it was the name of the PAF-TuAF exercise in 2008

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## Raider 21

GriffinsRule said:


> Indus Viper, if memory serves me right is a name of a PAF exercise.
> 
> 
> Edit: yep it was the name of the PAF-TuAF exercise in 2008


Yes it was that. I believe the recent term is being used for the delivery of the Viper helicopters.

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## Aamir Hussain

Arsalan said:


> Well since i got this one internet i wont vouch for it. You both may be correct, its most likely.


 Bohlari does not have trees as yet!

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## Nomad40

Aamir Hussain said:


> Bohlari does not have trees as yet!


I concur.

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## Talon

GriffinsRule said:


> Indus Viper, if memory serves me right is a name of a PAF exercise.
> 
> 
> Edit: yep it was the name of the PAF-TuAF exercise in 2008





Knuckles said:


> Yes it was that. I believe the recent term is being used for the delivery of the Viper helicopters.



Tukay lgao Musalmano..

*P.s I have already mentioned this is something other than the exercise and is unconfirmed so everyone here needs to take a chill pill and forget the topic.If it gets finalized and released to the public then everyone at PDF will know what I meant..
*

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## TsAr

Knuckles said:


> Yes it was that. I believe the recent term is being used for the delivery of the Viper helicopters.


what does your sources say , have they been delivered....

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## mingle

Hodor said:


> Tukay lgao Musalmano..
> 
> *P.s I have already mentioned this is something other than the exercise and is unconfirmed so everyone here needs to take a chill pill and forget the topic.If it gets finalized and released to the public then everyone at PDF will know what I meant..*


Abb tak kis ka tuka theek Hai???


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## Imran Khan

mingle said:


> Abb tak kis ka tuka theek Hai???


problem ye hai ke 6 lakh fauj hai or 12 lakh souce hai yahan per logoon ke

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## GriffinsRule

Hodor said:


> Tukay lgao Musalmano..
> 
> *P.s I have already mentioned this is something other than the exercise and is unconfirmed so everyone here needs to take a chill pill and forget the topic.If it gets finalized and released to the public then everyone at PDF will know what I meant..*


Perhaps take one of those pills yourself too kindly instead of getting worked up guess work by others, which is 99% of this forum anyways.
Second, you cant expect people to magically forget the topic once its been bought up. If it is unconfirmed, people will naturally speculate.


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## truthseeker2010

Hodor said:


> Tukay lgao Musalmano..
> 
> *P.s I have already mentioned this is something other than the exercise and is unconfirmed so everyone here needs to take a chill pill and forget the topic.If it gets finalized and released to the public then everyone at PDF will know what I meant..*



Block 70s coming......

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## Caprxl

Blacklight said:


> 4 upgrades happening as we speak.

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## Thorough Pro

What are guys taking about? was there some pic that was deleted?



Hodor said:


> I knew people would confuse it with the exercise,this is something else..

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## Cookie Monster

FuturePAF said:


> Servicemen and especially cadets may not know what is truly considered sensitive. We need some kind of filter (preferable a human filter) on all communications that requires posts to be vetted before they are allowed to go out.


Too much work and manpower required to start vetting all the pictures and videos taken by all the hundreds of thousands of servicemen...it's not at all realistically possible.

Instead there should be a blanket ban on taking pictures and recording videos of any military assets, personnels, bases, etc. Only a dedicated team(trained in what is sensitive and what is not) should be allowed to take pictures and record videos(for media purposes like footage of PAF fighter jets for a PAF song or something). This team should then submit it to some higher authority(a second set of eyes to catch anything that the team in charge of filming didn't catch) with a keen eye and broad knowledge of what is sensitive and what is okay for public eyes. Once approved...then it should be released for public.

In this day and age of social media and everyone having smartphones...there should be stern punishments for those who leak stuff(whether intentionally or unintentionally). The punishment should be fairly handed out regardless of how many connections/influence u have(professionalism should be a must in all military branches...and not nepotism).

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## FuturePAF

Cookie Monster said:


> Too much work and manpower required to start vetting all the pictures and videos taken by all the hundreds of thousands of servicemen...it's not at all realistically possible.
> 
> Instead there should be a blanket ban on taking pictures and recording videos of any military assets, personnels, bases, etc. Only a dedicated team(trained in what is sensitive and what is not) should be allowed to take pictures and record videos(for media purposes like footage of PAF fighter jets for a PAF song or something). This team should then submit it to some higher authority(a second set of eyes to catch anything that the team in charge of filming didn't catch) with a keen eye and broad knowledge of what is sensitive and what is okay for public eyes. Once approved...then it should be released for public.
> 
> In this day and age of social media and everyone having smartphones...there should be stern punishments for those who leak stuff(whether intentionally or unintentionally). The punishment should be fairly handed out regardless of how many connections/influence u have(professionalism should be a must in all military branches...and not nepotism).



I agree, the labor required to vet pictures and videos by servicemen and women would be enormous and take away from the mission. Best to have a scalable and simple solution, a blanket ban is also the safest option.


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## Arsalan

Caprxl said:


> As they say,
> "_*Where there is smoke , there is fire"*_


That or someone is smoking weed!

Not saying that this is the case here, just stating that smoke do not always mean fire, specially in case of military procurement. Plus in case of US-Pak, sometimes even fire do not means fire!! 



Aamir Hussain said:


> Bohlari does not have trees as yet!


Boss there were just two little trees in that pic, itny tu hoon gy he na? 

Anway, the pic is most probably not for the base as already cleared by @airomerix and other members too.

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## Caprxl

Arsalan said:


> Not saying that this is the case here, just stating that smoke do not always mean fire, specially in case of military procurement.* Plus in case of US-Pak, sometimes even fire do not means fire!!*



Agreed


----------



## Talon

GriffinsRule said:


> Perhaps take one of those pills yourself too kindly instead of getting worked up guess work by others, which is 99% of this forum anyways.
> Second, you cant expect people to magically forget the topic once its been bought up. If it is unconfirmed, people will naturally speculate.


Bila wajah ka mahool kharab krnay a jatay hain log..



mingle said:


> Abb tak kis ka tuka theek Hai???


More than one..

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## mingle

Hodor said:


> Bila wajah ka mahool kharab krnay a jatay hain log..
> 
> 
> More than one..


How about me??


----------



## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16A-ADF-Fighting-Falcon/2740

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## DrWatson775

Safriz said:


> These leaks are often unintended and unfortunate.
> I run a few large social media platforms, with others of course.
> I was forwarded a video of Chinese JH-7 flying alongside PAF mirages , by a close friend.
> It was a good video, recorded by the Mirage pilot himself.
> I watermarked it and posted on one of the Facebook pages I operated.
> Video went viral and within a few days it was everywhere.
> About a week later I received a message from the Mirage pilot himself asking me to take down the video.
> I already knew his name because the friend of mine who forwarded me the video said that it was recorded by squadron leader XYZ.
> So I knew the request is genuine.
> I deleted the video from my Facebook pages and files a copyright claim against other pages who also posted the video. It got removed from Facebook.
> A month later the same squadron leader contacted me again asking me to get the video removed from YouTube as it was then threading on YouTube.
> He was the original owner of the video but had no way of proving it. But the video had my watermark so I became the owner of the video.
> یعنی ٹوپی میرے سر پہ
> I made multiple copyright claims on YouTube and the video disappeared from YouTube.
> Then it again appeared on Dailymotion, Twitter and other video hosting sites.
> The squadron leader again contacted me and this time I had to politely refuses any further actions from me as I had enough.
> I asked him why he is spending so much time and effort in searching the internet for the video and trying to take it down?
> He said that the Chinese are not happy as the configuration in which JH-7 were flying alongside him was not to be made public.
> I asked him , why he released the video in the first place?
> He said he is from a certain cadet college and posted the video in a Watts app group only populated by his cadet college colleagues he trusted.
> It made sense because I knew that my friend studied in the same cadet college.
> He asked me how I got the video and I refused to tell him , because my friend who gave me the video was also his friend and I didn't want to cause friction between them.
> I then contacted my friend who originally gave me the video. Told him the whole story and he was well and truly ashamed.
> He said that the Watts app group has many serving servicemen who regularly post quite sensitive material on there, but nobody leaks it out of the group. That particular video didn't look sensitive and he just thought it's some Chinese planes flying with Pakistani planes, which looked cool and he forwarded the video to me without thinking much. And that the squadron leader never asked people to not show the video to outsiders.
> My friend is not in military, but in oil and gas industry.
> I don't know what consequences the squadron leader faced. But I still see that video on the internet, as whatever goes on the internet, stays there forever.
> Morale of the story is that servicemen should not post sensitive material on Watts app groups in the first place.


Hi

Did you learn anything from this episode? That would be quite important here.


----------



## MastanKhan

Safriz said:


> These leaks are often unintended and unfortunate.
> I run a few large social media platforms, with others of course.
> I was forwarded a video of Chinese JH-7 flying alongside PAF mirages , by a close friend.
> It was a good video, recorded by the Mirage pilot himself.
> I watermarked it and posted on one of the Facebook pages I operated.
> Video went viral and within a few days it was everywhere.
> About a week later I received a message from the Mirage pilot himself asking me to take down the video.
> I already knew his name because the friend of mine who forwarded me the video said that it was recorded by squadron leader XYZ.
> So I knew the request is genuine.
> I deleted the video from my Facebook pages and files a copyright claim against other pages who also posted the video. It got removed from Facebook.
> A month later the same squadron leader contacted me again asking me to get the video removed from YouTube as it was then threading on YouTube.
> He was the original owner of the video but had no way of proving it. But the video had my watermark so I became the owner of the video.
> یعنی ٹوپی میرے سر پہ
> I made multiple copyright claims on YouTube and the video disappeared from YouTube.
> Then it again appeared on Dailymotion, Twitter and other video hosting sites.
> The squadron leader again contacted me and this time I had to politely refuses any further actions from me as I had enough.
> I asked him why he is spending so much time and effort in searching the internet for the video and trying to take it down?
> He said that the Chinese are not happy as the configuration in which JH-7 were flying alongside him was not to be made public.
> I asked him , why he released the video in the first place?
> He said he is from a certain cadet college and posted the video in a Watts app group only populated by his cadet college colleagues he trusted.
> It made sense because I knew that my friend studied in the same cadet college.
> He asked me how I got the video and I refused to tell him , because my friend who gave me the video was also his friend and I didn't want to cause friction between them.
> I then contacted my friend who originally gave me the video. Told him the whole story and he was well and truly ashamed.
> He said that the Watts app group has many serving servicemen who regularly post quite sensitive material on there, but nobody leaks it out of the group. That particular video didn't look sensitive and he just thought it's some Chinese planes flying with Pakistani planes, which looked cool and he forwarded the video to me without thinking much. And that the squadron leader never asked people to not show the video to outsiders.
> My friend is not in military, but in oil and gas industry.
> I don't know what consequences the squadron leader faced. But I still see that video on the internet, as whatever goes on the internet, stays there forever.
> Morale of the story is that servicemen should not post sensitive material on Watts app groups in the first place.



Hi,

This is an " Execution by a firing squad " kind of offence against the officer who made the video and who leaked the video---.

What a shame and what a disgrace that a Sqdrn Ldr ranked officer did something like that---.



FuturePAF said:


> Servicemen and especially cadets may not know what is truly considered sensitive. We need some kind of filter (preferable a human filter) on all communications that requires posts to be vetted before they are allowed to go out.
> 
> https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2015/8/21/9189591/air-force-loose-tweets-destroy-fleets-slogan
> 
> 
> 
> Would love to see an intercept with a Sniper Pod, although if they can do an ID with a sniper pod they would not have to get this close if this was an actual intercept and not a salute to the air chief.



Hi,

What kind of bullcrap comment is that---.

You don't need to be a cadet or anybody to know the basics of secrecy.

It is a moral issue---it is about the 'code of conduct'---. I guess no one teaches that in the house to their children and neither do the schools teach them---.

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## FuturePAF

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> This is an " Execution by a firing squad " kind of offence against the officer who made the video and who leaked the video---.
> 
> What a shame and what a disgrace that a Sqdrn Ldr ranked officer did something like that---.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> What kind of bullcrap comment is that---.
> 
> You don't need to be a cadet or anybody to know the basics of secrecy.
> 
> It is a moral issue---it is about the 'code of conduct'---. I guess no one teaches that in the house to their children and neither do the schools teach them---.



There are things that are obviously secret and there are things that may not be apparent to everyone, even to a trained soldier. Hence why I said “truly considered sensitive”, by which I meant, they may not know everything that is considered sensitive.

In the US military they are banning Tik Tok because not only the videos might reveal sensitive information but the geo locations that maybe embedded in the videos. In the Israeli military they don’t reveal the faces of pilots presumably for fear of assassins.






The basics of secrecy are no longer enough, hence the need for human filters to review content or a blanket ban on such content.


----------



## Scorpiooo



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## Counter-Errorist

Rahil khan said:


> View attachment 641849


That pic is a public photo op. Not sure why you needed to hide his face:




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2966818163425458


----------



## aliyusuf

Scorpiooo said:


> View attachment 643427


A higher resolution more legible pic in English would be more informative.
Thank you for sharing anyway.

*P.S.*

BTW is the range of the APG-68 radar (in the pic) stated to be 120 or 130 km? 
Can't make out due to poor resolution.


----------



## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16A-ADF-Fighting-Falcon/2745

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## Rahil khan

Counter-Errorist said:


> That pic is a public photo op. Not sure why you needed to hide his face:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2966818163425458



I simply fulfilled my responsibility. Identity of such priceless figures in armed forces must be protected given the situation we have gone through in our country.

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## Scorpiooo



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## Trailer23



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## mingle

@Hodor @Blacklight @Gripen9 Indus vipers

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## Scorpiooo



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## mingle

Scorpiooo said:


> View attachment 643921


Looks like file is ready


----------



## Syed1.

mingle said:


> Looks like file is ready


What file sir?

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## airomerix

Scorpiooo said:


> View attachment 643463



This is a polish F-16. Not a Pakistan bird.

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## mingle

Syed1. said:


> What file sir?


Procurement


----------



## Thorough Pro

low expectations never result in disappointment.
All focus is on Block 3, which is going to be revealed soon, and it is going to surprise many, including the Block 2 jockeys

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16A-ADF-Fighting-Falcon/2750

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## Shameel

*
Article on "India and the US-Pakistan F-16 Agreement" published by the Centre for Aerospace & Security Studies, Islamabad:*

https://casstt.com/post/india-and-the-us-pakistan-f-16-agreement/219

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## Scorpiooo

Thorough Pro said:


> low expectations never result in disappointment.
> All focus is on Block 3, which is going to be revealed soon, and it is going to surprise many, including the Block 2 jockeys


AI it will one of top of line in its category.
But problem is that, 50 planned will 2025 atleast to induct if all production is in PAC

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## Thorough Pro

Production can be ramped up whenever needed, one major benefit of collaboration


----------



## Tair-Lahoti

The Glorious PAC Kamra [emoji1191] 

F-16 Fighting Falcon of PAF repaired by PAC Kamra after it got damaged during a bombing mission on terrorist hideouts.

Courtsy: PakistanStrategicForum

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## Talon

Bholari aka Nellis AB of Pakistan.. Repost from Instagram








Tair-Lahoti said:


> The Glorious PAC Kamra [emoji1191]
> 
> F-16 Fighting Falcon of PAF repaired by PAC Kamra after it got damaged during a bombing mission on terrorist hideouts.
> 
> Courtsy: PakistanStrategicForum
> View attachment 644378


Picture credits are actually to Ahsan Malik and topic is old and discussed in detail

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## Tipu7

Hodor said:


> Bholari aka Nellis AB of Pakistan.. Repost from Instagram
> 
> View attachment 644876
> 
> 
> 
> Picture credits are actually to Ahsan Malik and topic is old and discussed in detail


Is any other Squadron going to deploy in Bholari or Sq 19 will remain the sole player?

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## Tair-Lahoti

Can you send link to that discussion?


Hodor said:


> Bholari aka Nellis AB of Pakistan.. Repost from Instagram
> 
> View attachment 644876
> 
> 
> 
> Picture credits are actually to Ahsan Malik and topic is old and discussed in detail


----------



## Taha Samad

Hodor said:


> Bholari aka Nellis AB of Pakistan.. Repost from Instagram
> 
> View attachment 644876
> 
> 
> 
> Picture credits are actually to Ahsan Malik and topic is old and discussed in detail



Strange load out of 4 Aim-9. Can’t the ADF carry Aim-120?


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## Talon

Tipu7 said:


> Is any other Squadron going to deploy in Bholari or Sq 19 will remain the sole player?


In the future hopefully yes..



Tair-Lahoti said:


> Can you send link to that discussion?


I think it was discussed in this same thread



Taha Samad said:


> Strange load out of 4 Aim-9. Can’t the ADF carry Aim-120?



That's the main reason I uploaded this picture, I am not sure myself if they can carry Aim120 or not..

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## nomi007

Beside Viper upgrade
what is the alternative upgrades option for PAF's F-16?


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## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> Bholari aka Nellis AB of Pakistan.. Repost from Instagram
> 
> View attachment 644876
> 
> 
> Picture credits are actually to Ahsan Malik and topic is old and discussed in detail


Nice shot. But that ain't no Nellis. Not even close, maybe Sargodha. Maybe Shaw AFB equivalent. 


Tipu7 said:


> Is any other Squadron going to deploy in Bholari or Sq 19 will remain the sole player?


I think there was or is supposed to be a JF-17 squadron there

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## Talon

Knuckles said:


> Nice shot. But that ain't no Nellis. Not even close, maybe Sargodha. Maybe Shaw AFB equivalent.
> 
> I think there was or is supposed to be a JF-17 squadron there


I just posted what some people call it (not specifically because of what it hosts)

Some say it's supposed to host a Mirage squadron but there's only No. 19 for now..

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## Yasser76

Hodor said:


> Bholari aka Nellis AB of Pakistan.. Repost from Instagram
> 
> View attachment 644876
> 
> 
> 
> Picture credits are actually to Ahsan Malik and topic is old and discussed in detail



No, with CCS, all types of fighters and Air Warfare Centre I can assure you Mushaf AFB is Pakistan's version of Nellis.

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## araz

Hodor said:


> In the future hopefully yes..
> 
> 
> I think it was discussed in this same thread
> 
> 
> 
> That's the main reason I uploaded this picture, I am not sure myself if they can carry Aim120 or not..


ADFs are capable of firing AMRAMS. So dontcunderstand why this is being debated. I understand the picture shows them with AIM 9 missilies but all date and open sources suggest they can fire AMRAAMS.
A

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## Talon

Yasser76 said:


> No, with CCS, all types of fighters and Air Warfare Centre I can assure you Mushaf AFB is Pakistan's version of Nellis.


I agree with you but as I mentioned the name has nothing to do with deployments, maybe because of its location/geography or maybe in future it will host some serious stuff? Idk I didn't give it this name but it sure does gets mentioned in some circles..



araz said:


> ADFs are capable of firing AMRAMS. So dontcunderstand why this is being debated. I understand the picture shows them with AIM 9 missilies but all date and open sources suggest they can fire AMRAAMS.
> A


Yeah but never proved with a picture,at least I have never seen any


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## Viper27

I have a feeling our AIM-120Cs are not compatible with the ADFs fire control system. If someone has a picture of PAF ADF's with AMRAAM do share because I don't think I've seen them.


araz said:


> ADFs are capable of firing AMRAMS. So dontcunderstand why this is being debated. I understand the picture shows them with AIM 9 missilies but all date and open sources suggest they can fire AMRAAMS.
> A



Umm I raised this point because I have previously said the same thing on this forum: ADF can fire AMRAAM. They were designed to carry 6 BVR missiles for Air National Guard. But..its questionable if they can fire the AIM-120C due to the old radar. I have yet to see a PAF ADF with an AIM-120C.

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## airomerix

A fighter squadron from Masroor is to be transferred to Bholari shortly.

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## Shabi1

airomerix said:


> A fighter squadron from Masroor is to be transferred to Bholari shortly.


I was under the impression Masroor didn't have F-16s. Bholari already has F-16s.


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## AMRAAM

airomerix said:


> A fighter squadron from Masroor is to be transferred to Bholari shortly.


Minhasians? Aren't the fighter sqns in Karachi are specialized on sea operations?


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## Yasser76

Hodor said:


> I agree with you but as I mentioned the name has nothing to do with deployments, maybe because of its location/geography or maybe in future it will host some serious stuff? Idk I didn't give it this name but it sure does gets mentioned in some circles..
> 
> 
> Yeah but never proved with a picture,at least I have never seen any




Ah, OK, yes that makes sense

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## StormBreaker

airomerix said:


> A fighter squadron from Masroor is to be transferred to Bholari shortly.


I hope they aren’t Minhasians, hopefully bandits


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## baqai

airomerix said:


> A fighter squadron from Masroor is to be transferred to Bholari shortly.



and they will be replaced with?



Shabi1 said:


> I was under the impression Masroor didn't have F-16s. Bholari already has F-16s.



Maybe one of the Delta's or JF-17's being transferred, not sure if Masroor still has F-7's or not


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## Trailer23

Hodor said:


> That's the main reason I uploaded this picture, I am not sure myself if they can carry Aim120 or not..


Up until you mentioned it, it had never crossed my mind.

Well, after going through various footage that I have (News/Music) and the images - its pretty clear they carry only Aim-9 (Sidewinders).

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## TheTallGuy

Trailer23 said:


> Up until you mentioned it, it had never crossed my mind.
> 
> Well, after going through various footage that I have (News/Music) and the images - its pretty clear they carry only Aim-9 (Sidewinders).



They ADF variant has APG66 Radar which was mated with early AIM120B versions. since we have AIM-120C5 which is advanced many fold put AMRAAM on ADF and utilize it not to full envelope does not make sense. These are the oldest of F-16s and are not upgraded to MLU status like others that PAF have. with No.9 Sqn & No.11 Sqn/No.29 Sqn

That is why No.19 Sqn is Effectively an OCU sqn

informative read
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article11.html
"
The agreement consisted of two lease contracts and a Letter of Offer and Acceptance (LoA). The first lease was a no-cost lease for Jordan, covering 13 aircraft (12 A models and 1 B model, block 15 OCU's that were modified into ADF(Air Defense Fighters) versions. Under the Arms Export Control Act, the DOD was able to provide these aircraft at a no-cost lease because they had flown off over 75 percent of their life (i.e. more than 3,000 hour). Three of the B-model aircraft still had more than 25 percent of their life left and they fall under the second $4.5 million lease. Both leases cover a 5 year period. The LOA is for $215 million, covering all costs associated with upgrading those aircraft, doing the structural modifications to them, the engine upgrades, providing the support equipment, the logistics, the training.

The aircraft, all of which have flown previously by active Air Force and Air National Guard units, had been in storage for at least a year at the Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Center (AMARC) at Davis Monthan AFB, Tucson, Arizona before they were shipped to Hill AFB, Utah. There the Aircraft Directorate personnel from the Ogden Air Logistics Center performed structural upgrades to extend aircraft life from the designed 4,000 to 8,000 hours flying time as part of the Falcon-Up/Service Life Improvement program. They also modified the aircraft engine bay to accept the upgraded Pratt and Whitney F100-220E engine. New ground was broken with this Foreign military Sales program: taking 'used' F-16s from the desert (AMARC), completely refurbishing and modifying them and delivering the aircraft to the customer within a 17-month time frame."

*Mid-life Update*
For a number of years the Royal Jordanian AF recognized the need to give the leased aircraft a mid-life update in the next 2 or 3 years. It was unclear for a long time whether reference was made to the MLU-program, or just to updates in general.

In January of 2004 however a LOA for an $87 million contract was signed between Jordan and Lockheed-Martin for the update of the 17 Peace Falcon II aircraft. This modification consists of enhancements to the cockpit, avionics, sensors and weapons. These upgrades also improve system reliability and supportability. Together with this upgrade this package also includes Falcon UP and Falcon STAR structural upgrades. These structural upgrades will extend the service life to 8,000 flight hours with these aircraft being able to remain in service for another 20 years. The upgrades will be performed by Turkish Aerospace Industries in its Ankara fascilities

*Armament and Stores*
Main armament of the RJAF F-16s is the AIM-9 Sidewinder, although the RJAF was hoping to acquire the AIM-120AMRAAM for a long time. On November 24th, 2004 a deal was announced in which Jordan would receive up to 50 AIM-120C missiles and associated equipment in a deal worth $39 million..

These 50 AIM-120C were for MLU upgraded F-16s that RJAF purchased from Europe.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*So conclusion is These are not the one we got we got PEACE FALCON 1 aircraft. so they are only able to utilize AIM-9L/Ms

Now understand why recently they (IAF) had a offensive sortie in south few weeks ago.*

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## Talon

StormBreaker said:


> I hope they aren’t Minhasians, hopefully bandits


Move the only JF-17 squadron posted there? Impossible.I believe it will be a Mirage Squadron either from Rafiqui or Masroor, though not seeing it happening in immediate future



Trailer23 said:


> Up until you mentioned it, it had never crossed my mind.
> 
> Well, after going through various footage that I have (News/Music) and the images - its pretty clear they carry only Aim-9 (Sidewinders).


Yeah probably

Night Vision.. Repost from Facebook (Ace of Paf)

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## araz

Viper27 said:


> I have a feeling our AIM-120Cs are not compatible with the ADFs fire control system. If someone has a picture of PAF ADF's with AMRAAM do share because I don't think I've seen them.
> 
> 
> Umm I raised this point because I have previously said the same thing on this forum: ADF can fire AMRAAM. They were designed to carry 6 BVR missiles for Air National Guard. But..its questionable if they can fire the AIM-120C due to the old radar. I have yet to see a PAF ADF with an AIM-120C.


Interesting. Thank you for the update. I was under the impression they could fire AMRAAMS but did not realize it would be Bs only. Another thought why and how to upgrade them? Response will be appreciated?
A

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## Viper27

araz said:


> Interesting. Thank you for the update. I was under the impression they could fire AMRAAMS but did not realize it would be Bs only. Another thought why and how to upgrade them? Response will be appreciated?
> A



When Windjammer used to be around there was a brief discussion on this. I did some research and concluded that our ADFs can carry AMRAAMs. I later looked into it a few days ago and realised that the Jordanian F-16s we operate are the basic ADF versions whose avionics did not go through any upgrade (unlike Jordan's current fleet). The APG radars on the F-16ADFs can carry AIM-120s (older versions) and Sparrows. They can carry six AMRAAMs. But they are not configured for AIM-120C. I am not sure if our old sparrow missiles are still in storage or have been disposed off.

We can either get older AIM-120Bs and use them with the ADF or upgrade the radars for AIM-120C.


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## Yasser76

Best solution here is to mix up all the A/B fleet and distribute evenly amogst 9, 11, 18 and 19 sqd and give 19 Sqd some MLUs, then all Sqds can just use the ADFs for routine tasks/training etc.


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## Tipu7

Hodor said:


> That's the main reason I uploaded this picture, I am not sure myself if they can carry Aim120 or not..


No they cannot. From combat perspective, these fighters are primarily meant for point air defense role. 


airomerix said:


> A fighter squadron from Masroor is to be transferred to Bholari shortly.


Mirages! 


Hodor said:


> I agree with you but as I mentioned the name has nothing to do with deployments, maybe because of its location/geography or maybe in future it will host some serious stuff? Idk I didn't give it this name but it sure does gets mentioned in some circles..


Geography, and soon due to infrastructure development. Unlike other bases, this base is isolated from population centers, is located at a strategic spot and will be primarily meant to counter all types of threats (aerial +armor) emerging from South and South West India. A well developed Bholari means that Masroor can be focussed more towards Maritime roles.

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## Viper27

Tipu7 said:


> Geography, and soon due to infrastructure development. Unlike other bases, this base is isolated from population centers, is located at a strategic spot and will be primarily meant to counter all types of threats (aerial +armor) emerging from South and South West India. A well developed Bholari means that Masroor can be focussed more towards Maritime roles.



In that case the ADFs need to be upgraded or some AIM-120Bs should be purchased.


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## AMRAAM

airomerix said:


> A fighter squadron from Masroor is to be transferred to Bholari shortly.



And a new sqn is going to be raised at masroor with JF-17Bs?


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## TheTallGuy

Viper27 said:


> In that case the ADFs need to be upgraded or some AIM-120Bs should be purchased.



There is no option except to get them upgraded via MLU status. AIM-120B are out of production since long and i think they are out of service as well.


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## Viper27

TheTallGuy said:


> There is no option except to get them upgraded via MLU status. AIM-120B are out of production since long and i think they are out of service as well.



MLU is the best option. Second best might be to search for some older AMRAAMs. Not sure if all Bs are out of service.


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## TsAr

Shabi1 said:


> I was under the impression Masroor didn't have F-16s. Bholari already has F-16s.


Masroor does not have F-16

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## airomerix

Shabi1 said:


> I was under the impression Masroor didn't have F-16s. Bholari already has F-16s.






StormBreaker said:


> I hope they aren’t Minhasians, hopefully bandits





baqai said:


> and they will be replaced with?
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe one of the Delta's or JF-17's being transferred, not sure if Masroor still has F-7's or not





AMRAAM said:


> And a new sqn is going to be raised at masroor with JF-17Bs?



No. 2 Squadron is staying in Karachi. It is getting additional aircraft, potentially making it the biggest fighter squadron by fleet numbers (almost equivalent to 2 full-strength squadrons).

No. 7 sqn and No.22 sqn will go through some interchanging of assets and a Mirage sqn is expected to be shifted to Bholari. They will pose as a threat to IAF bases on the other side of the border and deter army movements.

A new squadron of AWACS is being raised at Bholari that will operate SAAB 2000's. and cover southern command and other bases in the center.



AMRAAM said:


> Minhasians? Aren't the fighter sqns in Karachi are specialized on sea operations?



Slightly true. 

Technically PAF does not have specialized pilots per say. Squadron roles can change anytime. People make up a squadron. And people can be moved around or retrained to suit needs. That's not a challenge.

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## StormBreaker

airomerix said:


> No. 2 Squadron is staying in Karachi. It is getting additional aircraft, potentially making it the biggest fighter squadron by fleet numbers (almost equivalent to 2 full-strength squadrons).
> 
> No. 7 sqn and No.22 sqn will go through some interchanging of assets and a Mirage sqn is expected to be shifted to Bholari. They will pose as a threat to IAF bases on the other side of the border and deter army movements.
> 
> A new squadron of AWACS is being raised at Bholari that will operate SAAB 2000's. and cover southern command and other bases in the center.
> 
> 
> 
> Slightly true.
> 
> Technically PAF does not have specialized pilots per say. Squadron roles can change anytime. People make up a squadron. And people can be moved around or retrained to suit needs. That's not a challenge.


What’s going on with No.2 if it is OK to say here ?

I mean like are the Bravos finally getting their spot along with Singles ? Or a surprise ?

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## litman

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article14.html
as per most of the sources F-16 ADF can carry AMRAAMs. but it seems some members like to find some sort of "kill switch theory" in every F-16.

https://nation.com.pk/28-Apr-2014/5-used-jordanian-f-16s-inducted-into-paf
they have attained MLU status. getting an air craft which cant carry BVR missile in the modern era even at a very low cost doesnt seem to be sensible at all. if they cant carry amraams it would have been better to go for some JFT.

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## Viper27

litman said:


> http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article14.html
> as per most of the sources F-16 ADF can carry AMRAAMs. but it seems some members like to find some sort of "kill switch theory" in every F-16.
> 
> https://nation.com.pk/28-Apr-2014/5-used-jordanian-f-16s-inducted-into-paf
> they have attained MLU status. getting an air craft which cant carry BVR missile in the modern era even at a very low cost doesnt seem to be sensible at all. if they cant carry amraams it would have been better to go for some JFT.



Had you bothered to do more research you would have realised that all these Jordanian ADFs we acquired have not received any MLU upgrade. Instead of relying on "The Nation" go to F-16.net and see the details of every ADF we have from the database there. You might learn that these ADFs did not go through any upgrade.

No one is denying that ADFs cannot carry AMRAAMs. The issue is that they cannot fire the AIM-120C which the PAF has. Please read the comments properly before responding.

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## GriffinsRule

litman said:


> http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article14.html
> as per most of the sources F-16 ADF can carry AMRAAMs. but it seems some members like to find some sort of "kill switch theory" in every F-16.
> 
> https://nation.com.pk/28-Apr-2014/5-used-jordanian-f-16s-inducted-into-paf
> they have attained MLU status. getting an air craft which cant carry BVR missile in the modern era even at a very low cost doesnt seem to be sensible at all. if they cant carry amraams it would have been better to go for some JFT.


Sorry man but the first batch of Jordanian F-16s under Peace Falcon that we eventually got did not go through an MLU but did get structural upgrades under Falcon Up program to increase life from 4000 to 8000 flying hours prior to delivery to Jordan. While all ADF variants have Block 15OCU avionics and their radars upgraded from APG-66 to APG-66A, the also don't know if the US took out the ability for these jets to be armed with or fire the AIM-120. This is of course speculation but there is no proof of these jets being able to be armed with the AIM-120C5 that PAF has.

Even looking at the aircraft, it is missing all telltale signs of having been through MLU. I think it would be a good option for PAF to undertake, even if these jets have only 4000 hours of flying hours left ... that is still a good number of decades of operations. It will also standardize the fleet and make maintenance easier.

Edit:
For the sake of completeness, I thought I should also include the only other air force which operated F-16ADF on a lease from the US and also became the first country to withdraw F-16s from its service, the Italian Air Force. No idea if their jets went under any upgrade outside of the structural stuff. Here are a couple of pictures of their ADF version of the jet carrying AIM-120 so anything is possible. If anyone can find out which version of the AMRAAM they used, we could have our answer.










Cockpit of the Italian F-16 ADF

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## Sidacca

airomerix said:


> No. 2 Squadron is staying in Karachi. It is getting additional aircraft, potentially making it the biggest fighter squadron by fleet numbers (almost equivalent to 2 full-strength squadrons).
> 
> No. 7 sqn and No.22 sqn will go through some interchanging of assets and a Mirage sqn is expected to be shifted to Bholari. They will pose as a threat to IAF bases on the other side of the border and deter army movements.
> 
> A new squadron of AWACS is being raised at Bholari that will operate SAAB 2000's. and cover southern command and other bases in the center.
> 
> 
> 
> Slightly true.
> 
> Technically PAF does not have specialized pilots per say. Squadron roles can change anytime. People make up a squadron. And people can be moved around or retrained to suit needs. That's not a challenge.


Sorry for being off topic but I need you to explain Pakistan's network centric capabilities, how potent it is..? What else need to be done..? Thank you


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## Shabi1

Sidacca said:


> Sorry for being off topic but I need you to explain Pakistan's network centric capabilities, how potent it is..? What else need to be done..? Thank you


We have our own locally developed data link called Link17. How potent it is, Indian defence analysts have quoted it to be a big challenge and Swift Retort?
Navy making their own system with Turkey, so next step would be link these up.

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## airomerix

StormBreaker said:


> What’s going on with No.2 if it is OK to say here ?
> 
> I mean like are the Bravos finally getting their spot along with Singles ? Or a surprise ?



Nothing fancy is going on. 

All 8 Bravo's have been distributed among 4 squadrons for testing. 



Sidacca said:


> Sorry for being off topic but I need you to explain Pakistan's network centric capabilities, how potent it is..? What else need to be done..? Thank you



I don't have an answer to this because net-centric capabilities are usually kept secret. All we know is that Saab 2000, Falcon DA20, and some other assets further PAF's network-centric needs. 

Our comms function on secure lines and have been supplied by reputable defense firms (unlike IAF until recently)

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## Sidacca

Shabi1 said:


> We have our own locally developed data link called Link17. How potent it is, Indian defence analysts have quoted it to be a big challenge and Swift Retort?
> Navy making their own system with Turkey, so next step would be link these up.


Thanks for the reply, what I have observed that in KSA, Iran, India, syria, Yemen and Libya the SAMs system are badly exposed, sometimes shooting own assets and sometimes fail to intercept incomings... This could be due better situational awareness so in case of Pakistan air defence you say is better interconnected and our network centric give us better situational awareness..?


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## capricorn5192

airomerix said:


> A fighter squadron from Masroor is to be transferred to Bholari shortly.


that means something will replace the transferred squadron, so are we talking about some new fighter jets?


----------



## Viper27

GriffinsRule said:


> Sorry man but the first batch of Jordanian F-16s under Peace Falcon that we eventually got did not go through an MLU but did get structural upgrades under Falcon Up program to increase life from 4000 to 8000 flying hours prior to delivery to Jordan. While all ADF variants have Block 15OCU avionics and their radars upgraded from APG-66 to APG-66A, the also don't know if the US took out the ability for these jets to be armed with or fire the AIM-120. This is of course speculation but there is no proof of these jets being able to be armed with the AIM-120C5 that PAF has.
> 
> Even looking at the aircraft, it is missing all telltale signs of having been through MLU. I think it would be a good option for PAF to undertake, even if these jets have only 4000 hours of flying hours left ... that is still a good number of decades of operations. It will also standardize the fleet and make maintenance easier.
> 
> Edit:
> For the sake of completeness, I thought I should also include the only other air force which operated F-16ADF on a lease from the US and also became the first country to withdraw F-16s from its service, the Italian Air Force. No idea if their jets went under any upgrade outside of the structural stuff. Here are a couple of pictures of their ADF version of the jet carrying AIM-120 so anything is possible. If anyone can find out which version of the AMRAAM they used, we could have our answer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cockpit of the Italian F-16 ADF



I have attached a "Happy Hooligans" ANG F-16 picture from F-16.net showing an older AIM-120. Many pictures in the F-16 database showing ADFs with older AMRAAMs.

All ADFs can carry AMRAAMs but it's quite certain now they can't fire the AIM-120C.


----------



## litman

GriffinsRule said:


> Sorry man but the first batch of Jordanian F-16s under Peace Falcon that we eventually got did not go through an MLU but did get structural upgrades under Falcon Up program to increase life from 4000 to 8000 flying hours prior to delivery to Jordan. While all ADF variants have Block 15OCU avionics and their radars upgraded from APG-66 to APG-66A, the also don't know if the US took out the ability for these jets to be armed with or fire the AIM-120. This is of course speculation but there is no proof of these jets being able to be armed with the AIM-120C5 that PAF has.
> 
> Even looking at the aircraft, it is missing all telltale signs of having been through MLU. I think it would be a good option for PAF to undertake, even if these jets have only 4000 hours of flying hours left ... that is still a good number of decades of operations. It will also standardize the fleet and make maintenance easier.
> 
> Edit:
> For the sake of completeness, I thought I should also include the only other air force which operated F-16ADF on a lease from the US and also became the first country to withdraw F-16s from its service, the Italian Air Force. No idea if their jets went under any upgrade outside of the structural stuff. Here are a couple of pictures of their ADF version of the jet carrying AIM-120 so anything is possible. If anyone can find out which version of the AMRAAM they used, we could have our answer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cockpit of the Italian F-16 ADF


the link that i gave says that it can carry upto 6 BVRs. aim7 or amraam. i will take that link as more authentic source. getting an air craft without BVR capability is nothing but a blunder. i dont think PAF is that much idiot.



Viper27 said:


> Had you bothered to do more research you would have realised that all these Jordanian ADFs we acquired have not received any MLU upgrade. Instead of relying on "The Nation" go to F-16.net and see the details of every ADF we have from the database there. You might learn that these ADFs did not go through any upgrade.
> 
> No one is denying that ADFs cannot carry AMRAAMs. The issue is that they cannot fire the AIM-120C which the PAF has. Please read the comments properly before responding.


your comments are without any authentic source. provide an authentic link which says that these F-16s cant carry AIM 120C. i dont believe in "kill switch "theories any more. provide me a link of some PAF official and i will surely be convinced.


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## litman

. as per many PAF sources these jets were upgraded before delivery to PAF. it is hard to digest that PAF inducted 13 jets in 2014 without BVR capability. if its true then 21 gun salute to their visionary leadership.





watch from 14:04 onward.

https://www.thenews.com.pk/archive/print/636257-paf-acquires-f-16s-from-jordan

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## TheTallGuy

litman said:


> the link that i gave says that it can carry upto 6 BVRs. aim7 or amraam. i will take that link as more authentic source. getting an air craft without BVR capability is nothing but a blunder. i dont think PAF is that much idiot.
> 
> 
> your comments are without any authentic source. provide an authentic link which says that these F-16s cant carry AIM 120C.



Brother, to effectively utilize AIM-120C5 they require APG68V radar which Ex-RJAF peace falcon 1 deal do not have. what is not there to understand? no if you are saying can "Carry" AIM-120 then answer is "Yes"F-16 can carry lot of things too..What i understand No.19 Sqn have become as OCU for Falcon pilots then they move on to more sophisticated F-16s...

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## litman

TheTallGuy said:


> Brother, to effectively utilize AIM-120C5 they require APG68V radar which Ex-RJAF peace falcon 1 deal do not have. what is not there to understand? no if you are saying can "Carry" AIM-120 then answer is "Yes"F-16 can carry lot of things too..What i understand No.19 Sqn have become as OCU for Falcon pilots then they move on to more sophisticated F-16s...


but there are reports that these were upgraded. see the link which i posted in previous post.
also this one on F-16.net http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article4835.html


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## Yasser76

T


TheTallGuy said:


> Brother, to effectively utilize AIM-120C5 they require APG68V radar which Ex-RJAF peace falcon 1 deal do not have. what is not there to understand? no if you are saying can "Carry" AIM-120 then answer is "Yes"F-16 can carry lot of things too..What i understand No.19 Sqn have become as OCU for Falcon pilots then they move on to more sophisticated F-16s...



This is the point, if we have a 75 aircraft F-16 fleet is matters little of 14 of them cannot carry AMRAAM, not all F-16s will be in the BVR role, we can use ADFs to save hours on the rest of the fleet, especially if 19Sqd is in an OCU role. These jets are still formidable in the air to ground role and I suspect that much of their role and reason for the current base maybe to deep strike any Indian Army formations in Rajahstan desert....

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## Pakistani Fighter

Yasser76 said:


> reason for the current base maybe to deep strike any Indian Army formations in Rajahstan desert....


What SOWs these F16s can carry against IA Formations?


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## Yasser76

Pakistani Fighter said:


> What SOWs these F16s can carry against IA Formations?



Unsure, but even iron bombs and LGBs will come in handy, it will be a numbers game when it comes to striking the big Indian formations, ideally you want planes that can carry a lot of bombs and take out whole Brigade groups


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## Pakistani Fighter

Yasser76 said:


> Unsure, but even iron bombs and LGBs will come in handy, it will be a numbers game when it comes to striking the big Indian formations, ideally you want planes that can carry a lot of bombs and take out whole Brigade groups


CBU 105 type weapons come in Handy. Sadly India has it and Pakistan do not


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## Viper27

With JF-17s and F-16 MLU + Bl52s providing air cover in war there may be no need to upgrade the ADFs. But considering these jets are deployed at Bholari I'm not sure how they'll fare in a sudden ADA scramble against BVR equipped Mirage 2000 for instance..


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## Akh1112

Pakistani Fighter said:


> What SOWs these F16s can carry against IA Formations?


JDAM.


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## Yasser76

Viper27 said:


> With JF-17s and F-16 MLU + Bl52s providing air cover in war there may be no need to upgrade the ADFs. But considering these jets are deployed at Bholari I'm not sure how they'll fare in a sudden ADA scramble against BVR equipped Mirage 2000 for instance..



Chances are they will never be put in that situation, like on Feb 27th they will have support from other assets, days of just one on one fighter duels are long gone and just for films. PAF will fight like it trains at Anatolian Eagle and Red Flag. Combined packages with supporting EW/AEW, a strike formation of F-16s ADFs will probably have top cover by a few JF-17s or MLUs


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## litman

Yasser76 said:


> T
> 
> 
> This is the point, if we have a 75 aircraft F-16 fleet is matters little of 14 of them cannot carry AMRAAM, not all F-16s will be in the BVR role, we can use ADFs to save hours on the rest of the fleet, especially if 19Sqd is in an OCU role. These jets are still formidable in the air to ground role and I suspect that much of their role and reason for the current base maybe to deep strike any Indian Army formations in Rajahstan desert....


using a jet that is modified for air defence and interception in air to ground role alone doesnt seem to be a sensible plan of action.


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## Akh1112

Viper27 said:


> With JF-17s and F-16 MLU + Bl52s providing air cover in war there may be no need to upgrade the ADFs. But considering these jets are deployed at Bholari I'm not sure how they'll fare in a sudden ADA scramble against BVR equipped Mirage 2000 for instance..




im fairly certain all of our falcons carry APG-68's. Here's my reasoning. From 2007-2011 we received 45 APG-68V9's. We had also received 32 F-16's (modernized A variants and block 52's.) This puts the total number of APG-68V9's to 77, i.e the same size as our fleet before the griffins crash. This figure also does not include spares iirc.







Ive redacted all of he unnecessary information. This should put a rest to the rumors.


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## Yasser76

litman said:


> using a jet that is modified for air defence and interception in air to ground role alone doesnt seem to be a sensible plan of action.



PAF use all it's jets in multrole configuration, this has been PAF philisophy for mangy years. Just because they fine tuned the F-16 for air defence it did suddenly not stop becoming a great multirole fighter. Always has been.


----------



## Viper27

Yasser76 said:


> Chances are they will never be put in that situation, like on Feb 27th they will have support from other assets, days of just one on one fighter duels are long gone and just for films. PAF will fight like it trains at Anatolian Eagle and Red Flag. Combined packages with supporting EW/AEW, a strike formation of F-16s ADFs will probably have top cover by a few JF-17s or MLUs



Thank you I agree. But you're talking of a strike package.. I'm concerned about the possibility of an IAF incursion through BVR jets from that sector and PAF ADFs would be scrambled...in that case..the IAF jets would likely fire from BVR and this could be a problem..

Apologies in advance if this scenario appears irrational but its just a possibility no matter how remote.



Akh1112 said:


> im fairly certain all of our falcons carry APG-68's. Here's my reasoning. From 2007-2011 we received 45 APG-68V9's. We had also received 32 F-16's (modernized A variants and block 52's.) This puts the total number of APG-68V9's to 77, i.e the same size as our fleet before the griffins crash. This figure also does not include spares iirc.
> 
> View attachment 645541
> 
> 
> Ive redacted all of he unnecessary information. This should put a rest to the rumors.



Problem is that ADF radars are not upgraded. The rest are

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## Akh1112

Viper27 said:


> Thank you I agree. But you're talking of a strike package.. I'm concerned about the possibility of an IAF incursion through BVR jets from that sector and PAF ADFs would be scrambled...in that case..the IAF jets would likely fire from BVR and this could be a problem..
> 
> Apologies in advance if this scenario appears irrational but its just a possibility no matter how remote.
> 
> 
> 
> Problem is that ADF radars are not upgraded. The rest are




How do you know? We ordered enough radars to upgrade every single one of our aircraft?


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## Yasser76

Akh1112 said:


> im fairly certain all of our falcons carry APG-68's. Here's my reasoning. From 2007-2011 we received 45 APG-68V9's. We had also received 32 F-16's (modernized A variants and block 52's.) This puts the total number of APG-68V9's to 77, i.e the same size as our fleet before the griffins crash. This figure also does not include spares iirc.
> 
> View attachment 645541
> 
> 
> Ive redacted all of he unnecessary information. This should put a rest to the rumors.



Think you may be incorrect here

We had 32 A/Bs, then got another 14 A/Bs from USAF fleet (former embargoes planes US was using as Aggressors)

Ads up to 46 units (minus one attrition) 45 which is exact amount of APG-68s we purchased. The MLU programme did not take into account the Jordanian F-16s as these were purchased at a later date

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## Akh1112

Yasser76 said:


> Think you may be incorrect here
> 
> We had 32 A/Bs, then got another 14 A/Bs from USAF fleet (former embargoes planes US was using as Aggressors)
> 
> Ads up to 46 units (minus one attrition) 45 which is exact amount of APG-68s we purchased. The MLU programme did not take into account the Jordanian F-16s as these were purchased at a later date




Our total fleet size is 76? including the 30 something 52's and embargoed A/B?


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## Yasser76

Viper27 said:


> Thank you I agree. But you're talking of a strike package.. I'm concerned about the possibility of an IAF incursion through BVR jets from that sector and PAF ADFs would be scrambled...in that case..the IAF jets would likely fire from BVR and this could be a problem..
> 
> Apologies in advance if this scenario appears irrational but its just a possibility no matter how remote.
> 
> 
> 
> Problem is that ADF radars are not upgraded. The rest are



If that scenario was true and we were in a state of high alert all PAF planes would be deployed to FOBs. Highly unlikely PAF would leave an air base so exposed with a JF-17/MLU detachment



Akh1112 said:


> Our total fleet size is 76? including the 30 something 52's and embargoed A/B?



Including attrition fleet size is 75 planes

44 MLUs
13 ADFs
18 Block 52s

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## Akh1112

Yasser76 said:


> If that scenario was true and we were in a state of high alert all PAF planes would be deployed to FOBs. Highly unlikely PAF would leave an air base so exposed with a JF-17/MLU detachment
> 
> 
> 
> Including attrition fleet size is 75 planes
> 
> 44 MLUs
> 13 ADFs
> 18 Block 52s




Im a little confused. So we know the MLUs are upgraded, according to F-16.net, Jordan had upgraded all of their ADF's to MLU standard which would add the V9?


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## TheTallGuy

Akh1112 said:


> Im a little confused. So we know the MLUs are upgraded, according to F-16.net, Jordan had upgraded all of their ADF's to MLU standard which would add the V9?



please refer to post#13325



litman said:


> but there are reports that these were upgraded. see the link which i posted in previous post.
> also this one on F-16.net http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article4835.html



The report is incorrect. Ex-RJAF Peace Falcon 1 aircraft went through SLEP/FALCON STAR/FALCON UP upgrades that means structural and Engine upgrade but hasnt gone through the complete MLU upgrade and as i understand they are not equipped with Link 16 because if they had they could have used AIM-120C5 to full potantial via SAAB2000 cooperative mode.

These were purchased with plan that we could get these upgraded via TAI through MLU in future but since that train has left the station long time ago we will fly them till 8000hrs and retire.

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## aliyusuf

Akh1112 said:


> Im a little confused. So we know the MLUs are upgraded, according to F-16.net, Jordan had upgraded all of their ADF's to MLU standard which would add the V9?


Adding to what @TheTallGuy has replied to you ... not all MLU's are equal ... with time ... more advanced upgrade options were made available ... PAF F-16 Block-15's are MLU Tape-5.

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## Scorpiooo

Shabi1 said:


> We have our own locally developed data link called Link17. How potent it is, Indian defence analysts have quoted it to be a big challenge and Swift Retort?
> Navy making their own system with Turkey, so next step would be link these up.


Really good news shared by you on Navy data lin . What additional in it then link 17

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## Aamir Hussain

This is an opinion by someone who seem to know his business. The question was which is better in SU30 vs. F-16 duel? I am trying to find out where i got this from, i will post the credits as soon as i get hold of them.

"Depends which variants you are talking about.


If you’re talking about a block 15 F-16A like the PAF or Thai AF early birds then this compares unfavorably to any Su-30.


If you’re talking about a USAF Block 52 F-16C with Link16 and the new APG-83 SABR or the Polish Block 60s or a UAE F-16E block 70 Desert Viper etc, then it compares favorably in many areas to any Su-30.


Then you have the different types and versions of the Su-30s. If you mean a watered down export version like the Su-30MKM or the Kazakh or Venezuelan birds then these are vanilla and don’t have the same capability baked into them than the much higher end MKIs or the Russian birds which are better again.


You also need to stipulate in which sense you mean “better”. If you mean in terms of dispatch reliability, spares support, acceleration, cost per hour to operate, engine life, airframe life, ITR, roll rate, ability to retain energy in a turning fight, the number of different weapons and weapon types, pods etc it can carry/mount, safety record etc then on any given day any F-16 beats any Su-30 by those metrics.


But if you mean in terms of STR, range, ability to point the nose in a slow speed AoA fight, dash speed with stores loaded, payload, ability to deploy from austere runways, EW capability etc. then any Su-30 handily beats any F-16 by those metrics.


I’m pretty sure you mean “Is IAF SU-30MKI better than PAF F-16?” If so then you have an Indian (?) nationalistic bias and you aren’t actually interested in which plane is better, but are asking as you want confirmation of why your (?) country is better. Ergo nothing I say about the planes will make any difference as you’ve already made your mind up. 


What I will say is the IAF and PAF both have approximately similar pilot training (both very good -- I dont agree with this but let us move on) and the mentioned platforms are close enough in ability that any engagement will come down to the usual variables of any air combat these days. This means: who sees who first? Who has AWACS support? Who has jamming support or pods loaded? Load out on both aircraft, Support/force strength, Weather, Tactics, Tactical situation, Terrain, Fuel state, and Posture?


The Indian Flankers have a bigger payload and can dash faster with it and extend further without tanker support. They have a better radar and a better TWR/ECM suite. In a slow speed nose-pointing or tight turning fight they would have an advantage WVR, especially as they have HMCS and off-boresight missiles and the PAF Vipers don’t (they do have a few of the helmets on their latest Viper Cs but not the AIM-9X to really get the best out of it.)

The Pak Vipers are deadlier as they have slightly better, more reliable missiles (AMRAAM C) and are harder to hit BVR. In a high energy turning or vertical fight, they would have an advantage WVR after the first phase where the Flanker has bled some speed/energy off and the HMCS is less of a big advantage.

So there you go. Whoever sees who first will probably win. WVR they probably both die.


Which is better? Depends on the fight you want to have. If you want an ambush, snap missile shot and disengage, or if you want to put guided warheads on very specific foreheads with super pinpoint precision in an A2G mode then probably the F-16. If you want anything else, probably the Flanker.


It is worth bearing in mind both sides have tactics specifically designed to try to nullify the edges the other side have in certain respects. The two sides are close enough so that it will come down to the intangible things you can’t control.


My feeling is the PAF would counter the IAF Flanker threat with Block 2/3 Thunders instead and let their Vipers go after the MiGs/Mirages. The block 2/3 JF-17s are kinetically nowhere near their Vipers but have a much better AESA, longer range reach BVR and a deadlier HMCS and off-bore-sight capability than their F-16's. With the right jamming support and radar support they would be a more dangerous opponent with the right tactics for the IAF Flankers than the PAF Vipers."

The last paragraph is interesting and gives credibility to the "Growler" version being developed for JF-17 Block III!!!

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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16BM-Fighting-Falcon/1986

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## GriffinsRule

Aamir Hussain said:


> This is an opinion by someone who seem to know his business. The question was which is better in SU30 vs. F-16 duel? I am trying to find out where i got this from, i will post the credits as soon as i get hold of them.
> 
> "Depends which variants you are talking about.
> 
> 
> If you’re talking about a block 15 F-16A like the PAF or Thai AF early birds then this compares unfavorably to any Su-30.
> 
> 
> If you’re talking about a USAF Block 52 F-16C with Link16 and the new APG-83 SABR or the Polish Block 60s or a UAE F-16E block 70 Desert Viper etc, then it compares favorably in many areas to any Su-30.
> 
> 
> Then you have the different types and versions of the Su-30s. If you mean a watered down export version like the Su-30MKM or the Kazakh or Venezuelan birds then these are vanilla and don’t have the same capability baked into them than the much higher end MKIs or the Russian birds which are better again.
> 
> 
> You also need to stipulate in which sense you mean “better”. If you mean in terms of dispatch reliability, spares support, acceleration, cost per hour to operate, engine life, airframe life, ITR, roll rate, ability to retain energy in a turning fight, the number of different weapons and weapon types, pods etc it can carry/mount, safety record etc then on any given day any F-16 beats any Su-30 by those metrics.
> 
> 
> But if you mean in terms of STR, range, ability to point the nose in a slow speed AoA fight, dash speed with stores loaded, payload, ability to deploy from austere runways, EW capability etc. then any Su-30 handily beats any F-16 by those metrics.
> 
> 
> I’m pretty sure you mean “Is IAF SU-30MKI better than PAF F-16?” If so then you have an Indian (?) nationalistic bias and you aren’t actually interested in which plane is better, but are asking as you want confirmation of why your (?) country is better. Ergo nothing I say about the planes will make any difference as you’ve already made your mind up.
> 
> 
> What I will say is the IAF and PAF both have approximately similar pilot training (both very good -- I dont agree with this but let us move on) and the mentioned platforms are close enough in ability that any engagement will come down to the usual variables of any air combat these days. This means: who sees who first? Who has AWACS support? Who has jamming support or pods loaded? Load out on both aircraft, Support/force strength, Weather, Tactics, Tactical situation, Terrain, Fuel state, and Posture?
> 
> 
> The Indian Flankers have a bigger payload and can dash faster with it and extend further without tanker support. They have a better radar and a better TWR/ECM suite. In a slow speed nose-pointing or tight turning fight they would have an advantage WVR, especially as they have HMCS and off-boresight missiles and the PAF Vipers don’t (they do have a few of the helmets on their latest Viper Cs but not the AIM-9X to really get the best out of it.)
> 
> The Pak Vipers are deadlier as they have slightly better, more reliable missiles (AMRAAM C) and are harder to hit BVR. In a high energy turning or vertical fight, they would have an advantage WVR after the first phase where the Flanker has bled some speed/energy off and the HMCS is less of a big advantage.
> 
> So there you go. Whoever sees who first will probably win. WVR they probably both die.
> 
> 
> Which is better? Depends on the fight you want to have. If you want an ambush, snap missile shot and disengage, or if you want to put guided warheads on very specific foreheads with super pinpoint precision in an A2G mode then probably the F-16. If you want anything else, probably the Flanker.
> 
> 
> It is worth bearing in mind both sides have tactics specifically designed to try to nullify the edges the other side have in certain respects. The two sides are close enough so that it will come down to the intangible things you can’t control.
> 
> 
> My feeling is the PAF would counter the IAF Flanker threat with Block 2/3 Thunders instead and let their Vipers go after the MiGs/Mirages. The block 2/3 JF-17s are kinetically nowhere near their Vipers but have a much better AESA, longer range reach BVR and a deadlier HMCS and off-bore-sight capability than their F-16's. With the right jamming support and radar support they would be a more dangerous opponent with the right tactics for the IAF Flankers than the PAF Vipers."
> 
> The last paragraph is interesting and gives credibility to the "Growler" version being developed for JF-17 Block III!!!



Sums it up quite nicely. On the topic of HOB missiles, Pakistan should try to pursue a similar approach as the Thais did with their MLU birds. They got their Vipers armed with IRIS-T instead of AIM-9X and can use the JHMCS to make WVR just as deadly as any Flanker or Fulcrum out there.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...f-16-upgrade-includes-german-air-air-missiles

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## Raider 21

Aamir Hussain said:


> This is an opinion by someone who seem to know his business. The question was which is better in SU30 vs. F-16 duel? I am trying to find out where i got this from, i will post the credits as soon as i get hold of them.
> 
> "Depends which variants you are talking about.
> 
> 
> If you’re talking about a block 15 F-16A like the PAF or Thai AF early birds then this compares unfavorably to any Su-30.
> 
> 
> If you’re talking about a USAF Block 52 F-16C with Link16 and the new APG-83 SABR or the Polish Block 60s or a UAE F-16E block 70 Desert Viper etc, then it compares favorably in many areas to any Su-30.
> 
> 
> Then you have the different types and versions of the Su-30s. If you mean a watered down export version like the Su-30MKM or the Kazakh or Venezuelan birds then these are vanilla and don’t have the same capability baked into them than the much higher end MKIs or the Russian birds which are better again.
> 
> 
> You also need to stipulate in which sense you mean “better”. If you mean in terms of dispatch reliability, spares support, acceleration, cost per hour to operate, engine life, airframe life, ITR, roll rate, ability to retain energy in a turning fight, the number of different weapons and weapon types, pods etc it can carry/mount, safety record etc then on any given day any F-16 beats any Su-30 by those metrics.
> 
> 
> But if you mean in terms of STR, range, ability to point the nose in a slow speed AoA fight, dash speed with stores loaded, payload, ability to deploy from austere runways, EW capability etc. then any Su-30 handily beats any F-16 by those metrics.
> 
> 
> I’m pretty sure you mean “Is IAF SU-30MKI better than PAF F-16?” If so then you have an Indian (?) nationalistic bias and you aren’t actually interested in which plane is better, but are asking as you want confirmation of why your (?) country is better. Ergo nothing I say about the planes will make any difference as you’ve already made your mind up.
> 
> 
> What I will say is the IAF and PAF both have approximately similar pilot training (both very good -- I dont agree with this but let us move on) and the mentioned platforms are close enough in ability that any engagement will come down to the usual variables of any air combat these days. This means: who sees who first? Who has AWACS support? Who has jamming support or pods loaded? Load out on both aircraft, Support/force strength, Weather, Tactics, Tactical situation, Terrain, Fuel state, and Posture?
> 
> 
> The Indian Flankers have a bigger payload and can dash faster with it and extend further without tanker support. They have a better radar and a better TWR/ECM suite. In a slow speed nose-pointing or tight turning fight they would have an advantage WVR, especially as they have HMCS and off-boresight missiles and the PAF Vipers don’t (they do have a few of the helmets on their latest Viper Cs but not the AIM-9X to really get the best out of it.)
> 
> The Pak Vipers are deadlier as they have slightly better, more reliable missiles (AMRAAM C) and are harder to hit BVR. In a high energy turning or vertical fight, they would have an advantage WVR after the first phase where the Flanker has bled some speed/energy off and the HMCS is less of a big advantage.
> 
> So there you go. Whoever sees who first will probably win. WVR they probably both die.
> 
> 
> Which is better? Depends on the fight you want to have. If you want an ambush, snap missile shot and disengage, or if you want to put guided warheads on very specific foreheads with super pinpoint precision in an A2G mode then probably the F-16. If you want anything else, probably the Flanker.
> 
> 
> It is worth bearing in mind both sides have tactics specifically designed to try to nullify the edges the other side have in certain respects. The two sides are close enough so that it will come down to the intangible things you can’t control.
> 
> 
> My feeling is the PAF would counter the IAF Flanker threat with Block 2/3 Thunders instead and let their Vipers go after the MiGs/Mirages. The block 2/3 JF-17s are kinetically nowhere near their Vipers but have a much better AESA, longer range reach BVR and a deadlier HMCS and off-bore-sight capability than their F-16's. With the right jamming support and radar support they would be a more dangerous opponent with the right tactics for the IAF Flankers than the PAF Vipers."
> 
> The last paragraph is interesting and gives credibility to the "Growler" version being developed for JF-17 Block III!!!


Interesting post. Polish Block 52+ and UAE Block 60 are the correct variants.


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## Aamir Hussain

Yes sir you are right. However, if PAF has to go forward then two things need to happen, our economy needs to get back on track and we need to balance our foreign policy.

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## araz

Aamir Hussain said:


> Yes sir you are right. However, if PAF has to go forward then two things need to happen, our economy needs to get back on track and we need to balance our foreign policy.


The economy and foreign policy are linked as you have implied. To have a balanced foreign policy you need the economy to be strong. This makes you independent rather than a stooge to every Habeebi, Chow or McKenzie one can care to imagine. 
A

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## Aamir Hussain

araz said:


> The economy and foreign policy are linked as you have implied. To have a balanced foreign policy you need the economy to be strong. This makes you independent rather than a stooge to every Habeebi, Chow or McKenzie one can care to imagine.
> A



Habibi, Chow, McKenzie!! Well Said Sir.

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## Talon

Falcons squad with chief, credits Awais Lali






ADF, credits Syed Zohaib






717

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## nomi007

*Can meteor missile be integrated with F16?*
@Windjammer @fatman17 @Quwa


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## araz

nomi007 said:


> *Can meteor missile be integrated with F16?*
> @Windjammer @fatman17 @Quwa


Will meteor be sold to us before you ask about integration. If sold and if allowed it maybe easier to integrate it with JFT where we have the facility. The real question is the first one and the second one will be with PL15 do we need it?
A

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## truthseeker2010

nomi007 said:


> *Can meteor missile be integrated with F16?*
> @Windjammer @fatman17 @Quwa



Why do you need meteor in the first place?

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## fatman17

Answer to your Q. Highly unlikely it will be sold to Pakistan


araz said:


> Will meteor be sold to us before you ask about integration. If sold and if allowed it maybe easier to integrate it with JFT where we have the facility. The real question is the first one and the second one will be with PL15 do we need it?
> A


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## Talon

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am surprised that you wrote such a long article---. I guess you had nothing much to do----


You see that's the behaviour because of which @Windjammer left PDF..

He had nothing to do so he shared some thoughts,when you have nothing to do (which is actually how your whole day goes) you log in to PDF and start posting stupid comments like this..

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## nomi007

fatman17 said:


> Answer to your Q. Highly unlikely it will be sold to Pakistan


what if we get some meteor from Qatar secretly?


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## MIRauf

nomi007 said:


> what if we get some meteor from Qatar secretly?



What platform will fire them ? No code to mate them to the Radar of F-16, JF-17 or M3/V. These things are not like PC, plug and play kind.

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## SQ8

Hodor said:


> You see that's the behaviour because of which @Windjammer left PDF..
> 
> He had nothing to do so he shared some thoughts,when you have nothing to do (which is actually how your whole day goes) you log in to PDF and start posting stupid comments like this..


Sometimes people need a place to vent to place blame on their own life frustrations - dont take them seriously and the PDF experience will get better.

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## Bratva

airomerix said:


> No. 2 Squadron is staying in Karachi. It is getting additional aircraft, potentially making it the biggest fighter squadron by fleet numbers (almost equivalent to 2 full-strength squadrons).
> 
> No. 7 sqn and No.22 sqn will go through some interchanging of assets and a Mirage sqn is expected to be shifted to Bholari. They will pose as a threat to IAF bases on the other side of the border and deter army movements.
> 
> A new squadron of AWACS is being raised at Bholari that will operate SAAB 2000's. and cover southern command and other bases in the center.
> 
> 
> 
> Slightly true.
> 
> Technically PAF does not have specialized pilots per say. Squadron roles can change anytime. People make up a squadron. And people can be moved around or retrained to suit needs. That's not a challenge.



New AWACS at bholari, Mirages moving out of Masroor. Then there are the rumors of J-15 coming to Pakistan in next 2 months. Lets play a very wild what if game. Is mirages moving out of masroor due to J-15 imminent arrival at Masroor?

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## Pakistani Fighter

Aamir Hussain said:


> My feeling is the PAF would counter the IAF Flanker threat with Block 2/3 Thunders instead and let their Vipers go after the MiGs/Mirages. The block 2/3 JF-17s are kinetically nowhere near their Vipers but have a much better AESA, longer range reach BVR and a deadlier HMCS and off-bore-sight capability than their F-16's. With the right jamming support and radar support they would be a more dangerous opponent with the right tactics for the IAF Flankers than the PAF Vipers."


Block 2 doesn't have AESA nor PL 15

So PAF will scramble jets based on which jets enemy sends?


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## syed_yusuf

Bratva said:


> New AWACS at bholari, Mirages moving out of Masroor. Then there are the rumors of J-15 coming to Pakistan in next 2 months. Lets play a very wild what if game. Is mirages moving out of masroor due to J-15 imminent arrival at Masroor?


I sincerely hope u are right about J15 but i highly doubt it but then again just hope for the best

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## khanasifm

Bratva said:


> New AWACS at bholari, Mirages moving out of Masroor. Then there are the rumors of J-15 coming to Pakistan in next 2 months. Lets play a very wild what if game. Is mirages moving out of masroor due to J-15 imminent arrival at Masroor?


Assumption , assumptions assumptions and rumors 

bottomline masroor has largest wing so make sense to move out to equalize the wings nothing more, guessing here

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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16BM-Fighting-Falcon/1377

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## TOPGUN

Did we get any twin seat ADF vipers when we bought them from Jordan ?


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## MastanKhan

Hodor said:


> You see that's the behaviour because of which @Windjammer left PDF..
> 
> He had nothing to do so he shared some thoughts,when you have nothing to do (which is actually how your whole day goes) you log in to PDF and start posting stupid comments like this..



Hi,

Oh my my my---such soft skin---. Grow a thick hide son---this world is a brutal place---. Don't be crying over issues with other people.

The comment to Mr. Hussein was in jest---. He does not write often---.

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## untitled

TOPGUN said:


> Did we get any twin seat ADF vipers when we bought them from Jordan ?


Yes. Two of them visible here

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## Talon

Bratva said:


> New AWACS at bholari, Mirages moving out of Masroor. Then there are the rumors of J-15 coming to Pakistan in next 2 months. Lets play a very wild what if game. Is mirages moving out of masroor due to J-15 imminent arrival at Masroor?


Mirage transfer from Masroor is not confirmed,their chances of moving from Masroor to Bholari are same as of Mirages moving from Rafiqui/Mushaf

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## Aamir Hussain

Who is the johnny sitting on the extreme right. He wears a different uniform?

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## Yasser76

Aamir Hussain said:


> Who is the johnny sitting on the extreme right. He wears a different uniform?



Jordanian Officer, like one on the extreme left

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## Ahmet Pasha

Koi kehta hai J15 a rha hai. Koi kehta hai block 70. Kisi ne 9 C130 deliver bhi krwa diye. Aurn 2 AH1Z bhi land krwa diye. What's up?




Bratva said:


> New AWACS at bholari, Mirages moving out of Masroor. Then there are the rumors of J-15 coming to Pakistan in next 2 months. Lets play a very wild what if game. Is mirages moving out of masroor due to J-15 imminent arrival at Masroor?


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## litman

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Koi kehta hai J15 a rha hai. Koi kehta hai block 70. Kisi ne 9 C130 deliver bhi krwa diye. Aurn 2 AH1Z bhi land krwa diye. What's up?


nothing is coming. just use your brain. how can we afford to induct any new platform with the current economic condition which has been devastated by corona and locust. if we maintain the current fleet it will be a great achievment. our PM is begging the whole world for delays in debt payment and keyboard warriors daily induct new jet in the military. at max we will see induction of block 3 JFT. nothing more we can afford right now.

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## Imran Khan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Koi kehta hai J15 a rha hai. Koi kehta hai block 70. Kisi ne 9 C130 deliver bhi krwa diye. Aurn 2 AH1Z bhi land krwa diye. What's up?


ye sab sirf aik kaan se sun ker dosry kaan se nikalny wali bateen hain bhai jan

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## Shabi1

Bratva said:


> New AWACS at bholari, Mirages moving out of Masroor. Then there are the rumors of J-15 coming to Pakistan in next 2 months. Lets play a very wild what if game. Is mirages moving out of masroor due to J-15 imminent arrival at Masroor?


First heard about it being disbanded or assets relocated to a new base near Karachi in the early 2000s in Musharaf era was supposed to be converted to a civilian use airstrip for the now in hold or perhaps cancelled Karachi Waterfront project, a Ret Col mentioned it again with a approx location of the new base in 2012-3. He mentioned PAF is in possession of extremely expensive land for Masroor and Faisal which would be sold off or developed for civilian use. And now we have PAF Bolari and portion of PAF Faisal land being developed into a housing project, so rumor coming true.









Masroor has a big bird strike problem, population around it has grown beyond expectation and the urbanization was highly unorganized.

Probably making it a less used airstrip to protect pilot lives.

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## Aamir Hussain

litman said:


> nothing is coming. just use your brain. how can we afford to induct any new platform with the current economic condition which has been devastated by corona and locust. if we maintain the current fleet it will be a great achievment. our PM is begging the whole world for delays in debt payment and keyboard warriors daily induct new jet in the military. at max we will see induction of block 3 JFT. nothing more we can afford right now.



When I said this long time back based upon logic...some members on this forum hounded me who were ardent fans of another x member.

People in this country seldom use logic to get answers to their questions instead they love to dwell upon conspiracies and sensational breaking news. The whole nation is tuned in to lovers of yellow journalism and feed upon conspiracies.



Yasser76 said:


> Jordanian Officer, like one on the extreme left



Sir don't seem like one. The Jordanian air force uses a bit modified brit uniform pattern and the collar tabs are in light blue color for airforce personnel instead of the red shown in the pic.

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## PanzerKiel

Aamir Hussain said:


> Who is the johnny sitting on the extreme right. He wears a different uniform?



Thats a Jordanian army uniform...person is probably the Jordan's military attache.



PanzerKiel said:


> Thats a Jordanian army uniform...person is probably the Jordan's military attache.

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## Scorpiooo



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## Readerdefence

Bratva said:


> New AWACS at bholari, Mirages moving out of Masroor. Then there are the rumors of J-15 coming to Pakistan in next 2 months. Lets play a very wild what if game. Is mirages moving out of masroor due to J-15 imminent arrival at Masroor?


Hi sir being a senior member you don’t mind me asking you couple of Q
1 why do you think PAF ( not PN in case for sea skirmishes) PAF looking for j15 
2 & suppose PAF is getting j series why not j16 more agile and up to date flying with j20 
Most of the time 
3 PAF present air chief marshal usually flew j11b while sitting in the back seats in more then couple of air exercises between China & Pakistan 
And is there anything concrete about getting j15 as at the moment Chinese needed them more then us due to their second or may be in coming years with third ACC coming online soon 
Thank you

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## Thorough Pro

6



TOPGUN said:


> Did we get any twin seat ADF vipers when we bought them from Jordan ?



Jordan flag on his left arm



Aamir Hussain said:


> Who is the johnny sitting on the extreme right. He wears a different uniform?


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## The Accountant

Readerdefence said:


> Hi sir being a senior member you don’t mind me asking you couple of Q
> 1 why do you think PAF ( not PN in case for sea skirmishes) PAF looking for j15
> 2 & suppose PAF is getting j series why not j16 more agile and up to date flying with j20
> Most of the time
> 3 PAF present air chief marshal usually flew j11b while sitting in the back seats in more then couple of air exercises between China & Pakistan
> And is there anything concrete about getting j15 as at the moment Chinese needed them more then us due to their second or may be in coming years with third ACC coming online soon
> Thank you


Cause they r based on russian designs so china cant sell them.


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## Aamir Hussain

Mystery resolved


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## airomerix

Bratva said:


> New AWACS at bholari, Mirages moving out of Masroor. Then there are the rumors of J-15 coming to Pakistan in next 2 months. Lets play a very wild what if game. Is mirages moving out of masroor due to J-15 imminent arrival at Masroor?



There is absolutely no talk of J-15. Neither do we need it. Whatever J-15 does or can carry can be beautifully executed by JF-17. Masroor is slated to be an all JF-17 base just like Minhas, Peshawar and Samungli (soon)

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## mingle

airomerix said:


> There is absolutely no talk of J-15. Neither do we need it. Whatever J-15 does or can carry can be beautifully executed by JF-17. Masroor is slated to be an all JF-17 base just like Minhas, Peshawar and Samungli (soon)


So mirages moves to Bolhari??


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## Aadi_1591

airomerix said:


> There is absolutely no talk of J-15. Neither do we need it. Whatever J-15 does or can carry can be beautifully executed by JF-17. Masroor is slated to be an all JF-17 base just like Minhas, Peshawar and Samungli (soon)


you are comparing apples with oranges

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## airomerix

Aadi_1591 said:


> you are comparing apples with oranges



I may be. 

Pakistan does not need apples AND oranges. We need different kinds of apples to compliment the apples we already have. If fruits help you understand. I'd be glad.



mingle said:


> So mirages moves to Bolhari??



Soon.

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## The Accountant

mingle said:


> So mirages moves to Bolhari??


Bolhari is an air superiority base to be taken by F16s

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## HRK

Aamir Hussain said:


> Mystery resolved


which mystery ....???


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## Arsalan

Bratva said:


> New AWACS at bholari, Mirages moving out of Masroor. Then there are the rumors of J-15 coming to Pakistan in next 2 months. Lets play a very wild what if game. Is mirages moving out of masroor due to J-15 imminent arrival at Masroor?





airomerix said:


> There is absolutely no talk of J-15. Neither do we need it. Whatever J-15 does or can carry can be beautifully executed by JF-17. Masroor is slated to be an all JF-17 base just like Minhas, Peshawar and Samungli (soon)


One surprising thing in this J-15 rumor is, WHY J-15? J-15 is a Carrier Based jet. That is one of its prime features and we wont be needing that. So why opt for J-15 when there are similar options available if PAF was indeed looking for a heavier twin engine fighter for Naval role. 

Anyway, just add this to EFT, Gripen, Su-35, F-16 Block 72, J-16 etc etc.

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## The Accountant

assuming that we are really serious with 5th generation fighter program the most feasible option is F16 Block 72, 1 to 2 squadron with an option to upgrade existing fleet to block 72 standard.

It means that in long term our fighter aircraft will remain limited to 3 categories (thunder, f16 and fifth generation) plus it is the cheapest option.

Otherwise whatever additional aircraft we get, it will cost us atleast double in terms of integration furthermore, it will again be really costly to upgrade and integrate existing fleet of F16s.

However, from political point it will be really difficult to get F16s block 72 and they are also sanction prone in case of war or uncle sam not in a mood.

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## Shabi1

In case Pakistan doesn't get the F-16V package there is a another upgrade potential down the pipeline. The Turkish radar itself is supposed to be ready by 2021 and 2022-3 for deployment. I personally think PAF will get it's F-16s upgraded eventually with US approval once CSF fund issue resolved, but new ones are a big question mark.

Either way F-16s will likely have a really long future with PAF just like Mirages where we will still be flying and maintaining them even after OEM ceases support. Similar to how US allows third party support and upgrades for F-4 and F-5s.

https://defence-point.com/2019/05/03/aselsan-s-new-aesa-radar-for-f-16s/

DEFENCE INDUSTRY
*ASELSAN’s new AESA radar for F-16s*
defencepoint | 03/05/2019 15:05





1
SHARES
FacebookTwitterEmailMore

*Aselsan introduced another new technology at the IDEF 19 in Istanbul, which started on April 30. The Turkish company showcased an active electronically scanned array (AESA) design that is being pitched for integration on the Turkish Air Force’s F-16 fleet.*

According to the company, the radar will be able to perform non-co-operative and automatic target recognition, while also featuring protection against radar frequency jamming, and has electronic support and electronic attack functions.

Aselsan sees the radar competing with systems such as Northrop Grumman’s APG-83 external link Scalable Agile Beam Radar on the domestic and export market.

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## Trailer23

Arsalan said:


> One surprising thing in this J-15 rumor is, WHY J-15? J-15 is a Carrier Based jet.


First off - i'm not buying the J-15 rumor-mill b.s.

However, although the J-15 is a carrier based jet for the PLAAN, but, so is the F-18 (Super Hornet) for the US Navy.

But that hasn't stopped other nations from inducting it in their respective Air Force's (Canada, Australia, Malaysia, Kuwait, Finland, Spain and Switzerland).

Again, we have a better chance of getting J10C/E than the J-15. Don't wanna make life complicated with the Russians and I haven't heard anything from the Chinese camp 'bout putting an 'Export' variant in the Market.

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## untitled

Trailer23 said:


> But that hasn't stopped other nations from inducting it in their respective Air Force's (Canada, Australia, Malaysia, Kuwait, Finland, Spain and Switzerland)


The country's that selected the F18 over the F16, were the country's that
1) Wanted a twin engined aircraft for safety reasons
2) The US wanted that country to go for the F18 so it could help Boeing


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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16BM-Fighting-Falcon/1086

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## Trailer23

untitled said:


> The country's that selected the F18 over the F16, were the country's that
> 1) Wanted a twin engined aircraft for safety reasons
> 2) The US wanted that country to go for the F18 so it could help Boeing


You're missing the point, my good man.

Again, just because the J-15 has a hook and fold-able wings, does NOT mean it can't be inducted in another Nations Air Force.

What's the difference between the USN F-18's and the F-18's used by other Nations?
Ans. Hook & Fold-able Wings.

You remove those and its a basic Fighter Jet like the F-15 Eagle.

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## Sidacca

airomerix said:


> Pakistan does not need apples AND oranges. We need different kinds of apples to compliment the apples we already have. If fruits help you understand. I'd be glad.


Shayar iss shair (poetry) main f16 70/72 ka zikr kr raha h


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## baqai

airomerix said:


> I may be.
> 
> Pakistan does not need apples AND oranges. We need different kinds of apples to compliment the apples we already have. If fruits help you understand. I'd be glad.
> 
> 
> 
> Soon.



so maritime role will totally be taken over by JF-17's ?


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## Pakistani Fighter

airomerix said:


> There is absolutely no talk of J-15. Neither do we need it. Whatever J-15 does or can carry can be beautifully executed by JF-17. Masroor is slated to be an all JF-17 base just like Minhas, Peshawar and Samungli (soon)


Well J15/J16 can carry 4 YJ12s.

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## araz

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Koi kehta hai J15 a rha hai. Koi kehta hai block 70. Kisi ne 9 C130 deliver bhi krwa diye. Aurn 2 AH1Z bhi land krwa diye. What's up?


I suspect a bit of misinformation . The outcome may well be something totally different.
A

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## Trailer23

Pakistani Fighter said:


> Well J15/J16 can carry 4 YJ12s.


O yaar. Mairay bhai.

There is no J-15/16 coming in our direction.

C-130's (maybe).
F-16's (maybe - someday - after playing hardball - and selling our soul, yet again).
J-10C/E (you never know).

But the whole J-15/16 is falling in the conversation of kayali pulao.

[Pakatay raho - pakatay raho, aur akhir may jal he jaey ga]​
My advice to you and some of our brothers that may be getting information from _other_ forums is that 'thanday dil say' just think about the complications and ratifications that could unfold attempting to acquire a jet that belongs to another Nation.

Yes, China pulled it off and the Russians aren't all to pleased about it - but that is where the buck stops. Only China can get away with it 'cause Russia needs them. But even Russia won't allow for China to start selling their designs off to other Nations. And I do not care if our fellow Chinese Members start selling the narrative that those are their own designs (respectfully).

Yeah, the J-10, J-20, Y-20 and even the FC-31* are fair game - but lets not beat about bush that there is even the slightest possibility that we'll get the J-15/16.

The PAF knows better. If they want those jets, then go through the proper channel - Russia. And quite frankly speaking, I have a better shot of getting a date with Jessica Alba (at my age) then that happening.

*A so-called esteemed Member (currently on PDF) claimed that the US Congress had/has warned China not to go ahead with the FC-31 Program. Yeah well, they've already announced that the new and improved version is going to making its First Flight next year. So much for empty threats. Ab wo Member jaey aur US Congress kay bahir cholay bachaey.

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## araz

The Accountant said:


> assuming that we are really serious with 5th generation fighter program the most feasible option is F16 Block 72, 1 to 2 squadron with an option to upgrade existing fleet to block 72 standard.
> 
> It means that in long term our fighter aircraft will remain limited to 3 categories (thunder, f16 and fifth generation) plus it is the cheapest option.
> 
> Otherwise whatever additional aircraft we get, it will cost us atleast double in terms of integration furthermore, it will again be really costly to upgrade and integrate existing fleet of F16s.
> 
> However, from political point it will be really difficult to get F16s block 72 and they are also sanction prone in case of war or uncle sam not in a mood.


Fully agree on the F16 point. Most sensible acquisition. However the US arms sales are an extension of its foreign policy and so our experience has not been a good one with embargoes and reneging on agreed terms. If US was a bit more reliable then I would wholeheartedly support your reasoning. I still agree that 2 squadrons plus 20 OLDER 42s airframes with upgrade package for the 52s that we have plus the 42s. Radars and other bits from our 52s can go into the ADFs.
A



Pakistani Fighter said:


> Well J15/J16 can carry 4 YJ12s.


That maybe the case but if the sale to third party is not sanctioned by the russians that would be a problem for us. As the poster said J10 is more likely than J15 but I still think that these rumours are targetted misinformation to get another platform.
A

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## Aamir Hussain

HRK said:


> which mystery ....???


The mystery of the strange uniform

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## litman

The Accountant said:


> Bolhari is an air superiority base to be taken by F16s


which F-16 sqn is there? i think its only 19 sqn which flies bvr less F-16s that makes them only slightly better then F-7. air superiority in 2020 with a bvr less air craft is difficult to understand. may be in war F-16s from other squadrons will be reloacted to bohlari or an entire JFT squadron as F-16s will most likely be deployed in the north as well. PAF has around 180 BVR capable jets which will be covering the entire air space from north to south against around more then 400 BVR capable IAF jets.

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## Readerdefence

The Accountant said:


> Cause they r based on russian designs so china cant sell them.


Hi so can they sell j15s then 
Thank you



Shabi1 said:


> In case Pakistan doesn't get the F-16V package there is a another upgrade potential down the pipeline. The Turkish radar itself is supposed to be ready by 2021 and 2022-3 for deployment. I personally think PAF will get it's F-16s upgraded eventually with US approval once CSF fund issue resolved, but new ones are a big question mark.
> 
> Either way F-16s will likely have a really long future with PAF just like Mirages where we will still be flying and maintaining them even after OEM ceases support. Similar to how US allows third party support and upgrades for F-4 and F-5s.
> 
> https://defence-point.com/2019/05/03/aselsan-s-new-aesa-radar-for-f-16s/
> 
> DEFENCE INDUSTRY
> *ASELSAN’s new AESA radar for F-16s*
> defencepoint | 03/05/2019 15:05
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1
> SHARES
> FacebookTwitterEmailMore
> 
> *Aselsan introduced another new technology at the IDEF 19 in Istanbul, which started on April 30. The Turkish company showcased an active electronically scanned array (AESA) design that is being pitched for integration on the Turkish Air Force’s F-16 fleet.*
> 
> According to the company, the radar will be able to perform non-co-operative and automatic target recognition, while also featuring protection against radar frequency jamming, and has electronic support and electronic attack functions.
> 
> Aselsan sees the radar competing with systems such as Northrop Grumman’s APG-83 external link Scalable Agile Beam Radar on the domestic and export market.


Hi a Q here is integration of Turkish radar for f16 why will USA let Turkish make money on their sole property to integrate something on which American can do easily by themselves 
I have asked this Q few months back with a reputed Turkish member on this forum but no
Reply about Turkish radar integration on a American plane without giving anything to USA 
Out of this deal it looks to me the same case like ATAK with USA engines 
Your input will be appreciated 
Thank you



araz said:


> Fully agree on the F16 point. Most sensible acquisition. However the US arms sales are an extension of its foreign policy and so our experience has not been a good one with embargoes and reneging on agreed terms. If US was a bit more reliable then I would wholeheartedly support your reasoning. I still agree that 2 squadrons plus 20 OLDER 42s airframes with upgrade package for the 52s that we have plus the 42s. Radars and other bits from our 52s can go into the ADFs.
> A
> 
> 
> That maybe the case but if the sale to third party is not sanctioned by the russians that would be a problem for us. As the poster said J10 is more likely than J15 but I still think that these rumours are targetted misinformation to get another platform.
> A


Hi sir I think here the point of interest for the Russians are keep on selling the engines 
Now I’m not competing with your knowledge but you will agree with me on jf17 issue that 
Once Chinese satisfied Russians about the engine sale / supply to Pakistan infact I think ordered 
Advance 500 engines that’s what I read somewhere on this forum in J series twin engines also 
We shouldn’t consider the Russian problem of baring Chinese not to sell them to pakistan(only) 
If China or Pakistan want to trade this for limited planes with Russian engines I’m sure russsians 
Also making money out of it 
Your input will be appreciated 
Thank you


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## Trailer23

Readerdefence said:


> Hi so can they sell j15s then


J-11, J-15, J-16 are ALL developed from Sukhoi.

Below is a post of mine from the previous page which outta shed some lite.


Trailer23 said:


> O yaar. Mairay bhai.
> 
> There is no J-15/16 coming in our direction.
> 
> C-130's (maybe).
> F-16's (maybe - someday - after playing hardball - and selling our soul, yet again).
> J-10C/E (you never know).
> 
> But the whole J-15/16 is falling in the conversation of kayali pulao.
> 
> [Pakatay raho - pakatay raho, aur akhir may jal he jaey ga]​
> My advice to you and some of our brothers that may be getting information from _other_ forums is that 'thanday dil say' just think about the complications and ratifications that could unfold attempting to acquire a jet that belongs to another Nation.
> 
> Yes, China pulled it off and the Russians aren't all to pleased about it - but that is where the buck stops. Only China can get away with it 'cause Russia needs them. But even Russia won't allow for China to start selling their designs off to other Nations. And I do not care if our fellow Chinese Members start selling the narrative that those are their own designs (respectfully).
> 
> Yeah, the J-10, J-20, Y-20 and even the FC-31* are fair game - but lets not beat about bush that there is even the slightest possibility that we'll get the J-15/16.
> 
> The PAF knows better. If they want those jets, then go through the proper channel - Russia. And quite frankly speaking, I have a better shot of getting a date with Jessica Alba (at my age) then that happening.
> 
> *A so-called esteemed Member (currently on PDF) claimed that the US Congress had/has warned China not to go ahead with the FC-31 Program. Yeah well, they've already announced that the new and improved version is going to making its First Flight next year. So much for empty threats. Ab wo Member jaey aur US Congress kay bahir cholay bachaey.

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## The Eagle

_No DCS or CGIs please._

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## Raider 21

araz said:


> *Fully agree on the F16 point. Most sensible acquisition. However the US arms sales are an extension of its foreign policy* and so our experience has not been a good one with embargoes and reneging on agreed terms. If US was a bit more reliable then I would wholeheartedly support your reasoning. I still agree that 2 squadrons plus 20 OLDER 42s airframes with upgrade package for the 52s that we have plus the 42s. Radars and other bits from our 52s can go into the ADFs.
> A
> 
> 
> That maybe the case but if the sale to third party is not sanctioned by the russians that would be a problem for us. As the poster said J10 is more likely than J15 but I still think that these rumours are targetted misinformation to get another platform.
> A


The same goes for China or any other "ally". Chinese made aircraft in PAF service also come with strings attached. Block 32s/42s would be a great idea. Even standard 52s instead of the 52+ option. Once again depends on the US Congress. It is more of a trust issue as both governments have betrayed each other in the past.

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## Spy Master

litman said:


> which F-16 sqn is there? i think its only 19 sqn which flies bvr less F-16s that makes them only slightly better then F-7. air superiority in 2020 with a bvr less air craft is difficult to understand. may be in war F-16s from other squadrons will be reloacted to bohlari or an entire JFT squadron as F-16s will most likely be deployed in the north as well. PAF has around 180 BVR capable jets which will be covering the entire air space from north to south against around more then 400 BVR capable IAF jets.


isn't all of PAF F16s BVR capable and upgraded to block52 standards after MLU?

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## litman

Spy Master said:


> isn't all of PAF F16s BVR capable and upgraded to block52 standards after MLU?


nope.i also had this impression but then found out that F-16s from jordan dont have bvr capability.

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## Inception-06

litman said:


> nope.i also had this impression but then found out that F-16s from jordan dont have bvr capability.



Shocking news !

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## Pakistani Fighter

Inception-06 said:


> Shocking news !


I have heard they have but are prone to jamming
@airomerix

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## Spy Master

Pakistani Fighter said:


> I have heard they have but are prone to jamming
> @airomerix


@Bilal Khan (Quwa) is it true that those Jordanian ones don't have BVR capability?


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## Raider 21

Spy Master said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) is it true that those Jordanian ones don't have BVR capability?


They do. PAF ADFs can't carry the particular AMRAAM in service.

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## Viper27

Spy Master said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) is it true that those Jordanian ones don't have BVR capability?



They have BVR capability. All ADFs are designed to carry 6 AMRAAMs. The problem is the Jordanian F-16s we got are like basic Block 10 versions that never went through any upgrades so they can't fire the AIM-120Cs that PAF has. They can fire older AMRAAMs which we don't have.

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## Rahil khan

Viper27 said:


> They have BVR capability. All ADFs are designed to carry 6 AMRAAMs. The problem is the Jordanian F-16s we got are like basic Block 10 versions that never went through any upgrades so they can't fire the AIM-120Cs that PAF has. They can fire older AMRAAMs which we don't have.


Has Pakistan got any option to upgrade those ADF's from Turkey? Those ADF's seemed pretty used up when they arrived in Pakistan. Wonder how much hours are remaining in these air frames?


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## Trailer23

Rahil khan said:


> Has Pakistan got any option to upgrade those ADF's from Turkey?


You know the Car Air-Fresheners you see hanging in the Rear View Mirror...




Yeah well, we can't even get that in any of our F-16's without the approval from the US.

If it were that easy, we would've gotten Viper upgrades for all of 'em including AESA from Turkey.

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## North Star

Interesting pic i found on Instagram.

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## GriffinsRule

North Star said:


> Interesting pic i found on Instagram.
> View attachment 647941


MLU bird


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## Shabi1

Readerdefence said:


> Hi so can they sell j15s then
> Thank you
> 
> 
> Hi a Q here is integration of Turkish radar for f16 why will USA let Turkish make money on their sole property to integrate something on which American can do easily by themselves
> I have asked this Q few months back with a reputed Turkish member on this forum but no
> Reply about Turkish radar integration on a American plane without giving anything to USA
> Out of this deal it looks to me the same case like ATAK with USA engines
> Your input will be appreciated
> Thank you
> 
> 
> Hi sir I think here the point of interest for the Russians are keep on selling the engines
> Now I’m not competing with your knowledge but you will agree with me on jf17 issue that
> Once Chinese satisfied Russians about the engine sale / supply to Pakistan infact I think ordered
> Advance 500 engines that’s what I read somewhere on this forum in J series twin engines also
> We shouldn’t consider the Russian problem of baring Chinese not to sell them to pakistan(only)
> If China or Pakistan want to trade this for limited planes with Russian engines I’m sure russsians
> Also making money out of it
> Your input will be appreciated
> Thank you



TUSAS is licensed by Lockhead Martin for all F-16 repairs/modification and assembly. Just as Israel replaced US made electronics on it's aircraft including F-16s with local made equivalents similarly TUSAS can get components OEM certified. 

Turkey is working on a road map for F-16 upgrades which includes radar and local equivalent of Aim-9X and Aim-120. With regards to US hardware the thing is if you do the repairs yourself then you risk manufacturer can stop all future support. So if Turkey is working on local systems it means they are prepared to maintain their assets without any US support.

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## TheTallGuy

I see people riled up or shocked that Ex-RJAF F-16s are not BVR employable due to age.

But i need to remind those people...for 26 years F-16 as a weapon system in PAF trained BVR less. goal was to get to merge..since 27th Feb everybody just think days of merge is finsihed which is very untrue...the fight merges from 50nm to 8nm in very quick time..

PAF pilots have trained and still train to get to merge and counters that are required to merge with BVR equipped enemy. yes now they have option of 1st Look and 1st shoot...added as luxury. 

MLU or non MLU - F-16 as a weapon system is "easy to fly and hard to employ as it requires very high level of training in different level of employment of weapons"

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## Yasser76

TheTallGuy said:


> I see people riled up or shocked that Ex-RJAF F-16s are not BVR employable due to age.
> 
> But i need to remind those people...for 26 years F-16 as a weapon system in PAF trained BVR less. goal was to get to merge..since 27th Feb everybody just think days of merge is finsihed which is very untrue...the fight merges from 50nm to 8nm in very quick time..
> 
> PAF pilots have trained and still train to get to merge and counters that are required to merge with BVR equipped enemy. yes now they have option of 1st Look and 1st shoot...added as luxury.
> 
> MLU or non MLU - F-16 as a weapon system is "easy to fly and hard to employ as it requires very high level of training in different level of employment of weapons"



Great post, sanity at last

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## Trailer23

North Star said:


> Interesting pic i found on Instagram.
> View attachment 647941


Couple of Aim-9 (Sidewinders) and 4 Aim-120 (AMRAAMs).

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## Raider 21

TheTallGuy said:


> I see people riled up or shocked that Ex-RJAF F-16s are not BVR employable due to age.
> 
> But i need to remind those people...for 26 years F-16 as a weapon system in PAF trained BVR less. goal was to get to merge..since 27th Feb everybody just think days of merge is finsihed which is very untrue...the fight merges from 50nm to 8nm in very quick time..
> 
> *PAF pilots have trained and still train to get to merge and counters that are required to merge with BVR equipped enemy.* yes now they have option of 1st Look and 1st shoot...added as luxury.
> 
> MLU or non MLU - F-16 as a weapon system is "easy to fly and hard to employ as it requires very high level of training in different level of employment of weapons"


They've been training for that since CCS inducted Vipers as part of the course back in the 90s. Soon they might be ramping up for Block 72s.....work has started at Bholari...

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## Kabotar

Knuckles said:


> They've been training for that since CCS inducted Vipers as part of the course back in the 90s. Soon they might be ramping up for Block 72s.....work has started at Bholari...



Are Block 72s coming?

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## TheTallGuy

Kabotar said:


> Are Block 72s coming?



i want J20A to be inducted.

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## Nomad40

Knuckles said:


> They've been training for that since CCS inducted Vipers as part of the course back in the 90s. Soon they might be ramping up for Block 72s.....work has started at Bholari...


I did hear someone say something.

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## TheTallGuy

Knuckles said:


> Soon they might be ramping up for Block 72s.....work has started at Bholari...



for that you need to Order sign an MOU/LOI and LM will announce publicly inform congress. so Block 72 if and its a big if will be ordered will arrive in approximately 5 years...

No CHANCE!



Mirage Battle Commander said:


> I did hear someone say something.



Dear Striker...Elaborate please..

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## Ali_Baba

Not this again.... honestly. PAF will NOT being buying any new F16s at all. The relationship is too unstable for that level of financial outlay between Pakistan and USA.

The AH-1Zs are sitting in storage and people here are having wet dreams about new build F16s.. what is wrong with People...

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## Raider 21

TheTallGuy said:


> *for that you need to Order sign an MOU/LOI and LM will announce publicly inform congress. so Block 72 if and its a big if will be ordered will arrive in approximately 5 years...*
> 
> No CHANCE!
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Striker...Elaborate please..


I'm aware. I used to work for LM. 

Cheers !!!

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## Nomad40

TheTallGuy said:


> for that you need to Order sign an MOU/LOI and LM will announce publicly inform congress. so Block 72 if and its a big if will be ordered will arrive in approximately 5 years...
> 
> No CHANCE!
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Striker...Elaborate please..


Many people are, besides this forum or any forum in general. People suspecting something to come.

I dont know if it will be a block 70 or j-10c or j-15 or something, But as I had stated before that PAF need's 1 new AS fighter and 1 Multi role with AS capability.


We might get a mix of the east and west

OR

Only east no one knows, trump has good gesture's to IK- so it is waiting game, I say give it 6 months.

If it dose not happen in 6 months........Fcuk all with the blk 70

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## GriffinsRule

Ali_Baba said:


> Not this again.... honestly. PAF will NOT being buying any new F16s at all. The relationship is too unstable for that level of financial outlay between Pakistan and USA.
> 
> The AH-1Zs are sitting in storage and people here are having wet dreams about new build F16s.. what is wrong with People...


Nothing wrong with dreaming about new F-16s and AH-1Zs =)

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## The Accountant

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Many people are besides this forum or any forum in general are suspecting something to come. I dont know if it will be a block 70 or j-10c or j-15 or something, But as i had stated before that PAF need 1 new AS fighter and 1 Multi role with AS capability.
> 
> 
> We might get a mix of the east and west
> 
> OR
> 
> Only east no one knows and trump is has good gesture to IK so waiting game i say give it 6 months.


Welcome to the forum

We r getting these predictions since a decade at minimum.

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## Aamir Hussain

Knuckles said:


> They've been training for that since CCS inducted Vipers as part of the course back in the 90s. Soon they might be ramping up for Block 72s.....work has started at Bholari...


Sir if I may ask what work has started at Bohlari for prep up to absorb Block 72?

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## Nomad40

The Accountant said:


> Welcome to the forum
> 
> We r getting these predictions since a decade at minimum.


I know I was 9-10 when i started peaking at this forum it has been ongoing but Take a look at the situations that the world is in today, POTUS is on good terms with Pakistan and remember he is a businessman.

Congress is influenced by him but that being said if he wants he can his party is majority, OFAC bal bla bla complicated system that IDGF about if it is it will be now or never.




Pakistan needs to come up with good cash trust me she can.


Even though Blk-70 will be a good addition to PAF fleet with low cost of induction training and so-forth I would still be not very dependent on the USA because of our ties with China. Even though the capitalist don't know loyalty but they like loyal customer's and as we all know Pakistan is not a Loyal customer.


The best thing would be to get 2 squadrons and maintain 100+2 F-16 fleet and stay loyal to the F-16 program.

But PAF must and I repeat must also get their hand's on Chinese AS/Multi role fighter in combination with the Jf-17, not only will it prove as a low cost effective solution but a good tactical move because China builds their stuff to fight the Indian's and American's. India is on and off participating in exercises with high tech F-16's thanks to the nation of Oman our dearest brother Israel and neutral Singaporeans. Indians will overcome the mental stigma of the fearful F-16 with the Rafael-------The Chinese equipment is still unknown to the masses besides China and Pakistan.


PAF must Have around 300+ BVR capable multi role/AS capable Fighters in Ideally 3 years or latest 5 years.

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## Raider 21

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> I know I was 9-10 when i started peaking at this forum it has been ongoing but Take a look at the situations that the world is in today, POTUS is on good terms with Pakistan and remember he is a businessman.
> 
> Congress is influenced by him but that being said if he wants he can his party is majority, OFAC bal bla bla complicated system that IDGF about if it is it will be now or never.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Pakistan needs to come up with good cash trust me she can.*
> 
> 
> Even though Blk-70 will be a good addition to PAF fleet with low cost of induction training and so-forth I would still be not very dependent on the USA because of our ties with China. Even though the capitalist don't know loyalty but they like loyal customer's and as we all know Pakistan is not a Loyal customer.
> 
> 
> The best thing would be to get 2 squadrons and maintain 100+2 F-16 fleet and stay loyal to the F-16 program.
> 
> But PAF must and I repeat must also get their hand's on Chinese AS/Multi role fighter in combination with the Jf-17, not only will it prove as a low cost effective solution but a good tactical move because China builds their stuff to fight the Indian's and American's. India is on and off participating in exercises with high tech F-16's thanks to the nation of Oman our dearest brother Israel and neutral Singaporeans. Indians will overcome the mental stigma of the fearful F-16 with the Rafael-------The Chinese equipment is still unknown to the masses besides China and Pakistan.
> 
> 
> PAF must Have around 300+ BVR capable multi role/AS capable Fighters in Ideally 3 years or latest 5 years.


It is the cash that is the issue. FMS programs have been on halt for some time. Recently officers were barred from attending courses in the US, but that has changed again and a number have been seen at Maxwell AFB.

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## Nomad40

Aamir Hussain said:


> Sir if I may ask what work has started at Bohlari for prep up to absorb Block 72?


Trust me no one knows what work is going in bholari------But the base will be a significant one, For all we know they might be making ammo dumps for a mirage squadron.

Or might be making a mini kamra for F-16's . The base is built to the Western doctrine and keeping 1 squadron of aim-9 F-16's that costed us 1/3 the price will be the most dumbest assumption to make so yeah no one knows for sure. I would not be surprised if bholari was constructed on a sum of 200-250 million USD and requires 10 million a year to keep it operational.

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## Raider 21

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> I know I was 9-10 when i started peaking at this forum it has been ongoing but Take a look at the situations that the world is in today, POTUS is on good terms with Pakistan and remember he is a businessman.
> 
> Congress is influenced by him but that being said if he wants he can his party is majority, OFAC bal bla bla complicated system that IDGF about if it is it will be now or never.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan needs to come up with good cash trust me she can.
> 
> 
> Even though Blk-70 will be a good addition to PAF fleet with low cost of induction training and so-forth I would still be not very dependent on the USA because of our ties with China. Even though the capitalist don't know loyalty but they like loyal customer's and as we all know Pakistan is not a Loyal customer.
> 
> 
> The best thing would be to get 2 squadrons and maintain 100+2 F-16 fleet and stay loyal to the F-16 program.
> 
> But PAF must and I repeat must also get their hand's on Chinese AS/Multi role fighter in combination with the Jf-17, not only will it prove as a low cost effective solution but a good tactical move because China builds their stuff to fight the Indian's and American's. *India is on and off participating in exercises with high tech F-16's thanks to the nation of Oman our dearest brother Israel and neutral Singaporeans.* Indians will overcome the mental stigma of the fearful F-16 with the Rafael-------The Chinese equipment is still unknown to the masses besides China and Pakistan.
> 
> 
> PAF must Have around 300+ BVR capable multi role/AS capable Fighters in Ideally 3 years or latest 5 years.


Indians have evaluated the F-16 time and time again. They have even qualified test pilots who have their masters theses done while doing their test pilot courses at Edwards AFB since the 80s or 90s, I'm forgetting the exact decade, but they've flown it numerous times. Yet the F-16 is ahead of any major Chinese platform out there, in almost all aspects. Chinese jets in PAF service often go through numerous upgrades which also cost a lot more than just getting the baseline Made in China aircraft.



Mirage Battle Commander said:


> *Trust me no one knows what work is going in bholari*------But the base will be a significant one, For all we know they might be making ammo dumps for a mirage squadron.
> 
> Or might be making a mini kamra for F-16's . The base is built to the Western doctrine and keeping 1 squadron of aim-9 F-16's that costed us 1/3 the price will be the most dumbest assumption to make so yeah no one knows for sure. I would not be surprised if bholari was constructed on a sum of 200-250 million USD and requires 10 million a year to keep it operational.


2 additional squadron buildings being constructed with a whole lot more. Yes there are people who know what kind of work is happening at Bholari. It is just limited info that can be told for now. Some are happy with that, most want to know more.

Negative, Kamra was a hit and trial for Vipers which worked well for the 80s and 90s, yet the embargo affected the decision in keeping them there hence the move to Sargodha was more economical not to mention the good number of Vipers that crashed in a span of 8 years. And no it was not the most dumbest assumption, they have employed people who make the best decisions for employing platforms over there.



Aamir Hussain said:


> Sir if I may ask what work has started at Bohlari for prep up to absorb Block 72?


Block 72s or Vipers or used Vipers etc etc....to accommodate 2 more fighter squadrons. What and when are the arrival of whatever jets, I'm unaware of it as they won't say more. And please I'm no sir, not that old yet.

Cheers !!!

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## Erroroverload

Knuckles said:


> And please I'm no sir, not that old yet.


on a lighter note... Every oldie does say that from time to time.

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## Raider 21

Erroroverload said:


> on a lighter note... Every oldie does say that from time to time.


Mid 20s here, so maybe it does or does not qualify

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## Nomad40

Knuckles said:


> Indians have evaluated the F-16 time and time again. They have even qualified test pilots who have their masters theses done while doing their test pilot courses at Edwards AFB since the 80s or 90s, I'm forgetting the exact decade, but they've flown it numerous times. Yet the F-16 is ahead of any major Chinese platform out there, in almost all aspects. Chinese jets in PAF service often go through numerous upgrades which also cost a lot more than just getting the baseline Made in China aircraft.
> 
> 
> 2 additional squadron buildings being constructed with a whole lot more. Yes there are people who know what kind of work is happening at Bholari. It is just limited info that can be told for now. Some are happy with that, most want to know more.
> 
> Negative, Kamra was a hit and trial for Vipers which worked well for the 80s and 90s, yet the embargo affected the decision in keeping them there hence the move to Sargodha was more economical not to mention the good number of Vipers that crashed in a span of 8 years. And no it was not the most dumbest assumption, they have employed people who make the best decisions for employing platforms over there.
> 
> 
> Block 72s or Vipers or used Vipers etc etc....to accommodate 2 more fighter squadrons. What and when are the arrival of whatever jets, I'm unaware of it as they won't say more. And please I'm no sir, not that old yet.
> 
> Cheers !!!


Hi

nice to hear that I was not aware of squadron building in the making. The assumption was for any one who thinks so, not the PAF. J-10C is a very capable air craft to say the least it is comparable to the Block 52 has an AESA most of the Air craft that were bought from china were soviets copies the new stuff is very different the upgrades will be mainly the ejection seat, PAF local software for the flight computer mainly translation of SOP you know having a related modulus to the PAF fleet. 


Vipers are our first line of defense we need a First offensive solution.

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## Trailer23

Kabotar said:


> Are Block 72s coming?


Yeah, and Natalie Portman is coming over for dinner at my place.

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## mingle

Aamir Hussain said:


> Sir if I may ask what work has started at Bohlari for prep up to absorb Block 72?


Blk 72 are coming IA EDA stock end of this yr IA @Blacklight



Knuckles said:


> They've been training for that since CCS inducted Vipers as part of the course back in the 90s. Soon they might be ramping up for Block 72s.....work has started at Bholari...


So only one Sqdn?? Or PAF looking to upgrade current fleet to V as well?? Any way it's a great news

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## Blacklight

mingle said:


> Blk 72 are coming IA EDA stock end of this yr IA @Blacklight


Kids are too immature to digest the ongoing procurements, so lets wait for official announcements.

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## Bossman

Based on the number of HASs and tarmac markings, Bohlari will have two squadrons of fighters and one squadron of Transport plus the usual inventory of SAR helicopters.

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## In arduis fidelis

Blacklight said:


> Kids are too immature to digest the ongoing procurements, so lets wait for official announcements.


Will we be paying hard cash for this or is it from CSF payments?

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16AM-Fighting-Falcon/2708

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## TOPGUN

mingle said:


> Blk 72 are coming IA EDA stock end of this yr IA @Blacklight
> 
> 
> So only one Sqdn?? Or PAF looking to upgrade current fleet to V as well?? Any way it's a great news



Bro, is this news conformed on the block 72's ?


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## blain2

In arduis fidelis said:


> Will we be paying hard cash for this or is it from CSF payments?


There is no CSF any longer.

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## The Raven

mingle said:


> Blk 72 are coming IA EDA stock end of this yr IA @Blacklight
> 
> 
> So only one Sqdn?? Or PAF looking to upgrade current fleet to V as well?? Any way it's a great news



How can the latest "Block-72" Vipers be EDA (Excess Defence Article) ?! They would need to be manufactured airframes and had seen maybe some limited use. I'm not aware of any "Block-72" Vipers being produced and then placed into storage for any reason.

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## Scorpiooo

The Raven said:


> How can the latest "Block-72" Vipers be EDA (Excess Defence Article) ?! They would need to be manufactured airframes and had seen maybe some limited use. I'm not aware of any "Block-72" Vipers being produced and then placed into storage for any reason.


May be he means old block with P&W engine EDA upgraded to V standard

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## AMRAAM

Bossman said:


> Based on the number of HASs and tarmac markings, Bohlari will have two squadrons of fighters and one squadron of Transport plus the usual inventory of SAR helicopters.


@aromerix has confirmed it few days ago that one Mirage sqn is moving from Karachi to Bholari.

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## Viper27

The Raven said:


> How can the latest "Block-72" Vipers be EDA (Excess Defence Article) ?! They would need to be manufactured airframes and had seen maybe some limited use. I'm not aware of any "Block-72" Vipers being produced and then placed into storage for any reason.



Correct. Any EDA stocks purchased and then upgraded will be F-16V not Block 72..but there's not a great deal separating the two.

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## Tipu7

Knuckles said:


> Yes there are people who know what kind of work is happening at Bholari.


Sadly that work will badly impact the Thunder program. I don't see it evolving beyond Blk3 as PAF will have better toys to play with. 


Blacklight said:


> Kids are too immature to digest the ongoing procurements, so lets wait for official announcements.


Honestly, there was kept so much secrecy regarding the news you have broken earlier. I know some people who went as far as to visit Multan base only to find out that nothing was there. 


TOPGUN said:


> Bro, is this news conformed on the block 72's ?


You know very well how our deals go with USA? They blocked our done deal for AH1Z only to unblock it after three years. As long as things don't touch down in Pakistan, the clouds of uncertainty will always be there.



Bossman said:


> Based on the number of HASs and tarmac markings, Bohlari will have two squadrons of fighters and one squadron of Transport plus the usual inventory of SAR helicopters.


Bholari will be (if not already) the largest base of PAF. It will offer PAF the 'privacy' to do certain things which demand cover up from unnecessary exposure.

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## TOPGUN

Tipu7 said:


> Sadly that work will badly impact the Thunder program. I don't see it evolving beyond Blk3 as PAF will have better toys to play with.
> 
> Honestly, there was kept so much secrecy regarding the news you have broken earlier. I know some people who went as far as to visit Multan base only to find out that nothing was there.
> 
> You know very well how our deals go with USA? They blocked our done deal for AH1Z only to unblock it after three years. As long as things don't touch down in Pakistan, the clouds of uncertainty will always be there.
> 
> 
> Bholari will be (if not already) the largest base of PAF. It will offer PAF the 'privacy' to do certain things which demand cover up from unnecessary exposure.




Yes 100 % !!


----------



## Blacklight

Tipu7 said:


> Honestly, there was kept so much secrecy regarding the news you have broken earlier. I know some people who went as far as to visit Multan base only to find out that nothing was there.
> 
> You know very well how our deals go with USA? They blocked our done deal for AH1Z only to unblock it after three years. As long as things don't touch down in Pakistan, the clouds of uncertainty will always be there.


You just contradicted yourself.

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## ziaulislam

Any deal from EDA will be notified 
So i dont expect f16s coming. Unless a notification is done ans afterwards it will be 1-2 years for delivery.
One exception will be used f16s from third country.


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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> Any deal from EDA will be notified
> So i dont expect f16s coming. Unless a notification is done ans afterwards it will be 1-2 years for delivery.
> One exception will be used f16s from third country.


EDA needs Pompeo's notification not DOD notification



Tipu7 said:


> Sadly that work will badly impact the Thunder program. I don't see it evolving beyond Blk3 as PAF will have better toys to play with.
> 
> Honestly, there was kept so much secrecy regarding the news you have broken earlier. I know some people who went as far as to visit Multan base only to find out that nothing was there.
> 
> You know very well how our deals go with USA? They blocked our done deal for AH1Z only to unblock it after three years. As long as things don't touch down in Pakistan, the clouds of uncertainty will always be there.
> 
> 
> Bholari will be (if not already) the largest base of PAF. It will offer PAF the 'privacy' to do certain things which demand cover up from unnecessary exposure.


PAF should find alternatives for Masroor too its in city better find something outside



TOPGUN said:


> Bro, is this news conformed on the block 72's ?


Keep watching since things smooth now IA we will get them

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## In arduis fidelis

blain2 said:


> There is no CSF any longer.


We have hard cash for a Sqn of block 72s?

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## Tipu7

Blacklight said:


> You just contradicted yourself.


Nah. I am mentioning the eagerness of few people, and their belief that they will visit the base and see those thing parketed in the middle of everything...

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## mingle

Tipu7 said:


> Nah. I am mentioning the eagerness of few people, and their belief that they will visit the base and see those thing parketed in the middle of everything...


Ha ha Dodh ka jala Chah bi phonk phonk kay peeta Hai


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## kursed

mingle said:


> EDA needs Pompeo's notification not DOD notification


EDA bought as is would not need DOD notification, but if you are ordering MLU (Block 70/72) kits for these older block F-16s, it would absolutely need a DOD notification. Just like our original Block 15 MLU order did.

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## mingle

kursed said:


> EDA bought as is would not need DOD notification, but if you are ordering MLU (Block 70/72) kits for these older block F-16s, it would absolutely need a DOD notification. Just like our original Block 15 MLU order did.


Let's wait and see fingers crossed


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## cloud4000

blain2 said:


> There is no CSF any longer.



If there's no CSF than all this talk of F-16s, C-130s, this and that is all for naught. 

CSF can be reinstituted just to compensate Pakistan, but this will require an act of Congress and be supported by the White House. That's the first part, the second part is the actual budget allocation, which requires another vote. Given that US government's fiscal budget starts from October 1, there are no chance funds will be distributed in 2020, but 2021, at the earliest. So any military orders won't come then when funds are finally available. 

Unless, of course, Pakistan pays from its own funds.

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## Nomad40

India will pa


cloud4000 said:


> If there's no CSF than all this talk of F-16s, C-130s, this and that is all for naught.
> 
> CSF can be reinstituted just to compensate Pakistan, but this will require an act of Congress and be supported by the White House. That's the first part, the second part is the actual budget allocation, which requires another vote. Given that US government's fiscal budget starts from October 1, there are no chance funds will be distributed in 2020, but 2021, at the earliest. So any military orders won't come then when funds are finally available.
> 
> Unless, of course, Pakistan pays from its own funds.


India will pay for all our equipment Cheers.


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## Raider 21

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> India will pa
> 
> India will pay for all our equipment Cheers.


Next time try to be funny

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## Nomad40

Knuckles said:


> Next time try to be funny



I was being Ironique, cheers have a nice night.


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## mingle

cloud4000 said:


> If there's no CSF than all this talk of F-16s, C-130s, this and that is all for naught.
> 
> CSF can be reinstituted just to compensate Pakistan, but this will require an act of Congress and be supported by the White House. That's the first part, the second part is the actual budget allocation, which requires another vote. Given that US government's fiscal budget starts from October 1, there are no chance funds will be distributed in 2020, but 2021, at the earliest. So any military orders won't come then when funds are finally available.
> 
> Unless, of course, Pakistan pays from its own funds.


He meant for future CSF but you forgot Trump was holding up our previous CSF about $$12 billion with release of zulus means that issue been settled quietly beacuse there was still pending amount for zulus which Pak wanted to pay through CSF but US asked Pak to pay from her own pocket with release of Helis means CSF is cleared.

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## Sidacca

mingle said:


> He meant for future CSF but you forgot Trump was holding up our previous CSF about $$12 billion with release of zulus means that issue been settled quietly beacuse there was still pending amount for zulus which Pak wanted to pay through CSF but US asked Pak to pay from her own pocket with release of Helis means CSF is cleared.


Release of Helis.... Are you sure Sir..?

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## mingle

Sidacca said:


> Release of Helis.... Are you sure Sir..?


Yes Sir all at home now

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## Sidacca

mingle said:


> Yes Sir all at home now


Then no doubt about c130s and f16s.... They are definitely coming.....
What about Chinese side any expectations....?

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## GriffinsRule

mingle said:


> Yes Sir all at home now


If they are all in Pakistan as you suggest, why no reception and photo op? I cant recall any american weapon system, esp something as major as AH-1Zs, being delivered and there not being a ceremony of some sort with military brass as well as the home country's ambassadors etc etc. 
And if all are already here, I also don't see any reason for secrecy. Makes me skeptical of the whole affair. Maybe there are plans for delivery etc but all being in the country already, probably not.

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## In arduis fidelis

GriffinsRule said:


> If they are all in Pakistan as you suggest, why no reception and photo op? I cant recall any american weapon system, esp something as major as AH-1Zs, being delivered and there not being a ceremony of some sort with military brass as well as the home country's ambassadors etc etc.
> And if all are already here, I also don't see any reason for secrecy. Makes me skeptical of the whole affair. Maybe there are plans for delivery etc but all being in the country already, probably not.


Oh you dont know about the new Pakistani strategy of whipping out critical strategic assets at last moment of the war to save the day like in movies


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## Trailer23

GriffinsRule said:


> ...why no reception and photo op? I cant recall any american weapon system, esp something as major as AH-1Zs, being delivered and there not being a ceremony of some sort with military brass as well as the home country's ambassadors etc etc.


Precisely. Whenever we received the F-16, there'd be someone from the USAF present.

AH-1Z's sound as if we stuck gold and got F-117 (Nitehawks) and the US wants to keep a lid on it.

I'll eat my words once some pics get released of 'em Zulus in Pakistan.

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## mingle

GriffinsRule said:


> If they are all in Pakistan as you suggest, why no reception and photo op? I cant recall any american weapon system, esp something as major as AH-1Zs, being delivered and there not being a ceremony of some sort with military brass as well as the home country's ambassadors etc etc.
> And if all are already here, I also don't see any reason for secrecy. Makes me skeptical of the whole affair. Maybe there are plans for delivery etc but all being in the country already, probably not.


They don't wana show you for some reasons but @Tipu7 is correct all cooked stuff is delivered



Sidacca said:


> Then no doubt about c130s and f16s.... They are definitely coming.....
> What about Chinese side any expectations....?


Not sure but door are open for PAF can get what she likes from east

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## air marshal




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## Talon

Time for FB sh*t admins and Ace of Paf to claim exclusive rights over the image..

P.s I do not own this patch/emblem

As @Knuckles posted about Block 72s so I think its ok to post this now (not an official patch/news)

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## Sidacca

Hodor said:


> Time for FB sh*t admins and Ace of Paf to claim exclusive rights over the image..
> 
> P.s I do not own this patch/emblem
> 
> As @Knuckles posted about Block 72s so I think its ok to post this now (not an official patch/news)
> 
> View attachment 649252


Designed and developed in Pakistan...??? Eyes opening claims

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## AMRAAM

Hodor said:


> Time for FB sh*t admins and Ace of Paf to claim exclusive rights over the image..
> 
> P.s I do not own this patch/emblem
> 
> As @Knuckles posted about Block 72s so I think its ok to post this now (not an official patch/news)
> 
> View attachment 649252


Please don't give us a heart attack.

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## Lone Ranger

Hodor said:


> Time for FB sh*t admins and Ace of Paf to claim exclusive rights over the image..
> 
> P.s I do not own this patch/emblem
> 
> As @Knuckles posted about Block 72s so I think its ok to post this now (not an official patch/news)
> 
> View attachment 649252


Developed in Pakistan? hain

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## baqai

popcorn time? chalu bhai @Khafee bhai ku competition dainay wali dhamaka khez kabar

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## araz

Sidacca said:


> Designed and developed in Pakistan...??? Eyes opening claims


Indeed. This would be a natural progression from Mirage programme as we now will have the right to manufacture these in house.(??% of production) Understand a lot of input would be required from US for the project to continue but opens the door for us to manfacture, retain and maintain these cheaply locally. If software is ours we may gain some fredom of integrating ammo of our choice an any platform.
Time frames could be in 3-5 yrs time so in 3 more years we will be looking at ramping up production to 12 per year.
I understand this means a deatg nell for the JFT progression as I doubt PAF can produce 2 planes simultaneously as well as develop the Azm. However id the Azm timeline has shifted to 35-40 it will give us reprieve and time to develop the platform properly. Expertise gained from manufacturing 16s will help in manufacturing the Azm in due course.
Interesting times ahead if I am reading the script right.
A

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## Ahmet Pasha

Bros probably just the patch is "developed in Pakistan"

Calm Down.


AMRAAM said:


> Please don't give us a heart attack.





araz said:


> Indeed. This would be a natural progression from Mirage programme as we now will have the right to manufacture these in house.(??% of production) Understand a lot of input would be required from US for the project to continue but opens the door for us to manfacture, retain and maintain these cheaply locally. If software is ours we may gain some fredom of integrating ammo of our choice an any platform.
> Time frames could be in 3-5 yrs time so in 3 more years we will be looking at ramping up production to 12 per year.
> I understand this means a deatg nell for the JFT progression as I doubt PAF can produce 2 planes simultaneously as well as develop the Azm. However id the Azm timeline has shifted to 35-40 it will give us reprieve and time to develop the platform properly. Expertise gained from manufacturing 16s will help in manufacturing the Azm in due course.
> Interesting times ahead if I am reading the script right.
> A

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## Zarvan

Sidacca said:


> Designed and developed in Pakistan...??? Eyes opening claims


The patch designed and developed in Pakistan not F 16

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## AMRAAM

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Bros probably just the patch is "developed in Pakistan"
> 
> Calm Down.


Something is definitely going on. A number of senior members are giving hints. The silence of @aromerix indicates that he doesn't want to share anything more on the subject.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Maybe he doesn't have anything to share?


AMRAAM said:


> Something is definitely going on. A number of senior members are giving hints. The silence of @aromerix indicates that he doesn't want to share anything more on the subject.

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## araz

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Maybe he doesn't have anything to share?


Fair enough. I take the point but @Hodor has dropped the name for the second time. The 16 line is nearing finishline in its development cycle. They have thought to outsource wings to Indian company. What if we have made a counter offer? Why would it not be more suitable for the US entering another generation of fighters to palm off some work to third world countries who can take off manufacturing of parts which are labour intensive.. So wings and tails are ours Central fuselage is theirs till we develop expertise. Iam just taking the thought forward. I understand the unit numbers would need to be high and therefore the cost and its implication on other programmes will have to be considered. It also ensures US intersts in the region remain relevant and the plant is of no value to theChinese as they have moved on as well.
A

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## baqai

So Bholari is going to be Kamra 2.0 for 16's i presume?


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## Ahmet Pasha

I hope you are right.
But I don't expect you to be.


araz said:


> Fair enough. I take the point but @Hodor has dropped the name for the second time. The 16 line is nearing finishline in the race. They have thought to outsource wings to Indian company. What if we have made a counter offer? Why would it not be more suitable for the US entering another generation of fighters to palm ofc some work to third world countries who can take off manufacturing of parts which are labour intensive. So wings and tails are ours Central fuselage is theirs till we develop expertise. Iam just taking the thought forward. It also ensures US intersts in the region remain relevant and the plant is of no value to theChinese as they have moved on as well.
> A

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## The Raven

araz said:


> Fair enough. I take the point but @Hodor has dropped the name for the second time. The 16 line is nearing finishline in the race. They have thought to outsource wings to Indian company. What if we have made a counter offer? Why would it not be more suitable for the US entering another generation of fighters to palm ofc some work to third world countries who can take off manufacturing of parts which are labour intensive. So wings and tails are ours Central fuselage is theirs till we develop expertise. Iam just taking the thought forward. It also ensures US intersts in the region remain relevant and the plant is of no value to theChinese as they have moved on as well.
> A



Because the US doesn't trust Pakistan. They don't even trust a fellow NATO member Turkey and have removed them from the F-35 programme. And with comments made by IK about OBL, that only goes to heighten their mistrust. They'll work with us on Afghanistan, and reward the military with a few token pieces such as the Cobras and maybe some more Vipers, but that's it. No transfer of tech to build Block-72 vipers with AESA.

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## araz

Ahmet Pasha said:


> I hope you are right.
> But I don't expect you to be.


I have merely expanded on the idea and you could be absolutely correct. I remain a student and learn here rather than teach.

A



The Raven said:


> Because the US doesn't trust Pakistan. They don't even trust a fellow NATO member Turkey and have removed them from the F-35 programme. And with comments made by IK about OBL, that only goes to heighten their mistrust. They'll work with us on Afghanistan, and reward the military with a few token pieces such as the Cobras and maybe some more Vipers, but that's it. No transfer of tech to build Block-72 vipers with AESA.


Is this a commercial deal or not? What trust issues exist if the same cN be awarded to INDIA which has been a life long ally of Russia? I am not implying transfer of critocal tech but tail Nd wings are not critical. Engine and software will come from US so they do not lose out. Iam merely expanding on an idea, not any concrete news. I base it on my little knowledge of aviagion which is infantile. I make no pretences to knowing much but lookat ideas and how they could progress. Feel free to correct me where youthink I am going wrong. I will appreciate it.
Regards
A

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## Sidacca

Zarvan said:


> The patch designed and developed in Pakistan not F 16


Bhai ghusay se keh raha h or you are getting funny..? Sach btana

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## Ahmet Pasha

A commercial deal that is most likely gonna go through hillbilly rednecks, Trumpies in both houses of Congress. They already believe the worst things about muslims and what their deep state believes about Pakistan is well known to us as well.

Heck they still keep writing those "do more" articles and op eds in various newspaper.

It's better to not get our hopes up with America.

Unless we are Saudis who will bay 100s of billions for 1980s tech.


araz said:


> commercial deal

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## Zarvan

Sidacca said:


> Bhai ghusay se keh raha h or you are getting funny..? Sach btana


Not being angry but seriously saying it.

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## The Eagle

Hodor said:


> Time for FB sh*t admins and Ace of Paf to claim exclusive rights over the image..
> 
> P.s I do not own this patch/emblem
> 
> As @Knuckles posted about Block 72s so I think its ok to post this now (not an official patch/news)
> 
> View attachment 649252



Exclusive rights? Didn't see that coming.  why such random pics are claimed like that. If the patch is real, that's the sole property of PAF.

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## Talon

The Eagle said:


> Exclusive rights? Didn't see that coming.  why such random pics are claimed like that. If the patch is real, that's the sole property of PAF.


Many FB pages such as Ace take pictures from PDF and put their watermark claiming it to be exclusive.

Patch is the property of whoever designed it most probably a civilian.

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## StormBreaker

Hodor said:


> Time for FB sh*t admins and Ace of Paf to claim exclusive rights over the image..
> 
> P.s I do not own this patch/emblem
> 
> As @Knuckles posted about Block 72s so I think its ok to post this now (not an official patch/news)
> 
> View attachment 649252





NOW WAYYYYYY !!!!!!


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## The Raven

araz said:


> Is this a commercial deal or not? What trust issues exist if the same cN be awarded to INDIA which has been a life long ally of Russia? I am not implying transfer of critocal tech but tail Nd wings are not critical. Engine and software will come from US so they do not lose out. Iam merely expanding on an idea, not any concrete news. I base it on my little knowledge of aviagion which is infantile. I make no pretences to knowing much but lookat ideas and how they could progress. Feel free to correct me where youthink I am going wrong. I will appreciate it.
> Regards
> A



The trust issues with Pakistan specifically is the harbouring of militants and terrorist organisations, with the potential to destabilise Afghanistan, rather than any issues with CAATSA. But there are also concerns about tech leaks to China, which is why we have US personnel in Pakistan monitoring our Block-52s. With India, the US would have loved to have sold the Viper production line and the F-35 to them, but then they opted to acquire the Russian S-400 and CAATSA kicked in, the same thing that happened to Turkey. The US has different concerns when it comes to India and Pakistan. Besides, the Indians wouldn't have gone for the Vipers anyway, it was always a long shot.

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## Viper27

@airomerix 
@Blacklight 

Tagging these two members as they had broken news about EDA Vipers.

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## Yasser76

So Alan Warnes is stating on Twitter LMTAS unaware of any V upgrade for PAF F-16s. Hope we can finally out this to rest now.

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## DrWatson775



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## AMRAAM

Viper27 said:


> View attachment 649378
> 
> 
> @airomerix
> @Blacklight
> 
> Tagging these two members as they had broken news about EDA Vipers.


So we have just landed back from Moon.

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## Armchair

Bholari is a mystery. I'm sure PAF, being the professionals they are, realize partnership with the US is about to end, so making a best attempt to get a hold of the aircraft that they love the most. That is most likely. Hope they succeed, even if it is EDA or politically managed somehow by Trump administration (like fighter transfer from Egypt or Jordan to Pakistan would need a Pompeo signature).

Indus Viper sounds like "Desert Viper". Could it also be a transfer of jets from the UAE? That would make them "block 70s" (70 not 72, as alluded to by @Khafee). The only reason this could happen is if the UAE is planning to get new vipers instead, or going for the Lightening II.

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## SABRE

Armchair said:


> Bholari is a mystery. I'm sure PAF, being the professionals they are, realize partnership with the US is about to end, so making a best attempt to get a hold of the aircraft that they love the most. That is most likely. Hope they succeed, even if it is EDA or politically managed somehow by Trump administration (like fighter transfer from Egypt or Jordan to Pakistan would need a Pompeo signature).
> 
> Indus Viper sounds like "Desert Viper". Could it also be a transfer of jets from the UAE? That would make them "block 70s" (70 not 72, as alluded to by @Khafee). The only reason this could happen is if the UAE is planning to get new vipers instead, or going for the Lightening II.



I see we are still clinging on to hopes spurred by unsubstantiated rumours. Nothing is true or valid unless DoD or State Department say something.

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## Aamir Hussain

Bohlari is on 25 Sq. kilometer area. 

1. Not big enough to be Kamra in its present space.
2. Not by far the largest airbase. Some others are bigger.
3. 18 hardened shelters and 10 more Shelters on ADA Alert platform at both ends of the runways

Max two squadrons can be housed. And I see some large hanger being completed on 22L Hardened Shelter Taxiway.

Btw saw some Orions being parked at Masroor with a new hanger too.

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## Armchair

SABRE said:


> I see we are still clinging on to hopes spurred by unsubstantiated rumours. Nothing is true or valid unless DoD or State Department say something.



You remind me of the haram police. Going about acting self righteous telling everyone what to say or think.

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## Akh1112

Armchair said:


> Bholari is a mystery. I'm sure PAF, being the professionals they are, realize partnership with the US is about to end, so making a best attempt to get a hold of the aircraft that they love the most. That is most likely. Hope they succeed, even if it is EDA or politically managed somehow by Trump administration (like fighter transfer from Egypt or Jordan to Pakistan would need a Pompeo signature).
> 
> Indus Viper sounds like "Desert Viper". Could it also be a transfer of jets from the UAE? That would make them "block 70s" (70 not 72, as alluded to by @Khafee). The only reason this could happen is if the UAE is planning to get new vipers instead, or going for the Lightening II.




Well, the only difference between the 70 v 72 is engine type. I assume you mean the Block 60, this is EVEN more unlikely, the UAE has no reason to switch to a new type when they operate some of the finest fighters in the sky. Besides, there have been times where export licenses to the UAE have been denied of the Block 60 so let alone them being transferred to the PAF.

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## mingle

Hodor said:


> Time for FB sh*t admins and Ace of Paf to claim exclusive rights over the image..
> 
> P.s I do not own this patch/emblem
> 
> As @Knuckles posted about Block 72s so I think its ok to post this now (not an official patch/news)
> 
> View attachment 649252


FB fans mean MRO probably



Viper27 said:


> View attachment 649378
> 
> 
> @airomerix
> @Blacklight
> 
> Tagging these two members as they had broken news about EDA Vipers.


Alan said same thing what he said about Zulus I don't know this time he referred you guys to LM.

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## cloud4000

araz said:


> Is this a commercial deal or not? What trust issues exist if the same cN be awarded to INDIA which has been a life long ally of Russia? I am not implying transfer of critocal tech but tail Nd wings are not critical. Engine and software will come from US so they do not lose out. Iam merely expanding on an idea, not any concrete news. I base it on my little knowledge of aviagion which is infantile. I make no pretences to knowing much but lookat ideas and how they could progress. Feel free to correct me where youthink I am going wrong. I will appreciate it.
> Regards



India's relationship with Russia didn't stop the US from offering the F-21 and having it built there. Since India has backed away from the aircraft, this may give Pakistan a chance, but it's a dim one. For one thing, what will the structure of the project? How much money is Pakistan going to have to kick in production costs and how many aircraft will PAF need to buy to make it appealing to LM? There are too many questions.

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## Viper27

AMRAAM said:


> So we have just landed back from Moon.



Can't say.. that's Fawad Chaudhry's domain.


mingle said:


> FB fans mean MRO probably
> 
> 
> Alan said same thing what he said about Zulus I don't know this time he referred you guys to LM.



On Zulus he said something like "reliably informed that this is not true". He didn't say who told him. Moreover, Alan covers PAF so he's not the go to guy for Army Aviation matters. This time however he has specifically tagged Lockheed Martin which gives even more strength to what he is saying.


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## Tipu7

Viper27 said:


> View attachment 649378
> 
> 
> @airomerix
> @Blacklight
> 
> Tagging these two members as they had broken news about EDA Vipers.


So, Allan Warnes has taken place as Asif Ghafoor of PAF?

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## Scorpiooo



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## Bratva

Viper27 said:


> Can't say.. that's Fawad Chaudhry's domain.
> 
> 
> On Zulus he said something like "reliably informed that this is not true". He didn't say who told him. Moreover, Alan covers PAF so he's not the go to guy for Army Aviation matters. This time however he has specifically tagged Lockheed Martin which gives even more strength to what he is saying.




Just to clear one thing. Alan warnes has reliable links in Pakistan Army Avaition. He extensively covered PAA couple years back and had met GOC PAA to write his report on PAA. The link to his PAA report

http://tangentlink.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/2022_TangentLink_Pakistan-Army-Report-v1.pdf

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## kursed

Folks, if there are ever any MLU kits being negotiated, you'd see it in a DCSA notification - even if there's an intent for a sale. There's quite literally no way around it, until then, just treat a rumor as a rumor.

We have gone through this before at the time of Block 15 MLU, you all should know the routine.

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## SABRE

Armchair said:


> You remind me of the haram police. Going about acting self righteous telling everyone what to say or think.



& you remind of misconstrue-police that runs rampant now & then. No, that was not my intent: to act like haram police, acting self-righteous (certainly not) and telling you what to believe and what not to believe. It is a simple fact. If the DoD &/or Statement department release info it is an 'almost certainty,' and I call it that because 'almost uncertainty' also looms around at the same. They have on several occasions retracted announcements and decisions because of secretarial or presidential change of heart. In the mid-1970s, Pentagon sent a recommendation for 110 used A-7 for PAF to Ford led White House. A big fuss was made of it but the deal never went beyond "recommendation." It was later struck down by Carter. The same thing happened with the F-5. Big fuss in media only for the two sides to simultaneously retract from it. If there is indeed a DOD & State Department "recommendation" on selling Pakistan F-16s - new or old - it is, in essence, meaningless unless it receives consent or approval from the president.

Then there is the second issue of the 'election year.' Pakistan usually tries to stay away from any deal on military or economic assistance with the incumbent U.S. government during an election year in the U.S., as Zia did during 1980. This is an election year. Unless Trump can quickly streamline F-16 sales through Congress Pakistan would not push for it.

In the end, I may be wrong. But this what the past experience says.

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## Raider 21

Aamir Hussain said:


> Bohlari is on 25 Sq. kilometer area.
> 
> 1. Not big enough to be Kamra in its present space.
> 2. Not by far the largest airbase. Some others are bigger.
> 3. 18 hardened shelters and 10 more Shelters on ADA Alert platform at both ends of the runways
> 
> *Max two squadrons can be housed*. And I see some large hanger being completed on 22L Hardened Shelter Taxiway.
> 
> Btw saw some Orions being parked at Masroor with a new hanger too.


2 more squadron buildings are being planned.

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## The Raven

SABRE said:


> & you remind of misconstrue-police that runs rampant now & then. No, that was not my intent: to act like haram police, acting self-righteous (certainly not) and telling you what to believe and what not to believe. It is a simple fact. If the DoD &/or Statement department release info it is an 'almost certainty,' and I call it that because 'almost uncertainty' also looms around at the same. They have on several occasions retracted announcements and decisions because of secretarial or presidential change of heart. In the mid-1970s, Pentagon sent a recommendation for 110 used A-7 for PAF to Ford led White House. A big fuss was made of it but the deal never went beyond "recommendation." It was later struck down by Carter. The same thing happened with the F-5. Big fuss in media only for the two sides to simultaneously retract from it. If there is indeed a DOD & State Department "recommendation" on selling Pakistan F-16s - new or old - it is, in essence, meaningless unless it receives consent or approval from the president.
> 
> Then there is the second issue of the 'election year.' Pakistan usually tries to stay away from any deal on military or economic assistance with the incumbent U.S. government during an election year in the U.S., as Zia did during 1980. This is an election year. Unless Trump can quickly streamline F-16 sales through Congress Pakistan would not push for it.
> 
> In the end, I may be wrong. But this what past experience says.



All excellent points Sabre, thanks for describing in detail. This is what this forum needs, well thought out and clearly described arguments.

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## mingle

Viper27 said:


> Can't say.. that's Fawad Chaudhry's domain.
> 
> 
> On Zulus he said something like "reliably informed that this is not true". He didn't say who told him. Moreover, Alan covers PAF so he's not the go to guy for Army Aviation matters. This time however he has specifically tagged Lockheed Martin which gives even more strength to what he is saying.


He clear cut said I don't know


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## Nomad40

baqai said:


> So Bholari is going to be Kamra 2.0 for 16's i presume?


I Have already said that.

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## Raider 21

Viper27 said:


> View attachment 649378
> 
> 
> @airomerix
> @Blacklight
> 
> Tagging these two members as they had broken news about EDA Vipers.


LM would've commented to his tweet. So far he's unaware, and he would probably only know if an actual deal materialises.



Armchair said:


> Bholari is a mystery.* I'm sure PAF, being the professionals they are, realize partnership with the US is about to end*, so making a best attempt to get a hold of the aircraft that they love the most. That is most likely. Hope they succeed, even if it is EDA or politically managed somehow by Trump administration (like fighter transfer from Egypt or Jordan to Pakistan would need a Pompeo signature).
> 
> Indus Viper sounds like "Desert Viper". Could it also be a transfer of jets from the UAE? That would make them "block 70s" (70 not 72, as alluded to by @Khafee). The only reason this could happen is if the UAE is planning to get new vipers instead, or going for the Lightening II.


Partnership cannot end fully, as that would mean end of the Viper programs. Egypt won't let go of their Vipers (they'd rather offer them to India given their relationship). UAE will never sell the Block 60, and if anyone was to buy the Block 60, royalty payments would have to be paid to the UAE as they financed its development.

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## Armchair

Knuckles said:


> LM would've commented to his tweet. So far he's unaware, and he would probably only know if an actual deal materialises.
> 
> 
> Partnership cannot end fully, as that would mean end of the Viper programs. Egypt won't let go of their Vipers (they'd rather offer them to India given their relationship). UAE will never sell the Block 60, and if anyone was to buy the Block 60, royalty payments would have to be paid to the UAE as they financed its development.



Never say never. Stranger things have happened. I'm certain that if F-35s come to the ME (outside Israel), the first cut will be the UAE. 

Sure, Egypt would rather sell to India, but India doesn't want F-16s let alone Block 52s. And they did just sell Horus Mirages. If that can happen, this can happen - with American support. US can simply ask them to transfer these to PAF and give them some other goodies instead. 

_This is all theoretical possibilities._ Disclaimer for the immature who will jump and start saying "ah so you are saying Egypt is selling F-16s to Pakistan" and other assorted uncivilized types that come on PDF to snigger and insult others viewpoints, seems to give them a hard on or something.

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## Viper27

Knuckles said:


> LM would've commented to his tweet. So far he's unaware, and he would probably only know if an actual deal materialises.
> 
> 
> Partnership cannot end fully, as that would mean end of the Viper programs. Egypt won't let go of their Vipers (they'd rather offer them to India given their relationship). UAE will never sell the Block 60, and if anyone was to buy the Block 60, royalty payments would have to be paid to the UAE as they financed its development.



Which was exactly my point: as of now there appears to be no deal for any F-16V upgrades.


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## Nomad40

Yall should calm down in regards to arab states, They are not you're friend.

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## Raider 21

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Yall should calm down in regards to arab states, They are not you're friend.


Nobody is, there's a difference between being called allies and friends. Which also makes me wary of China's supposedly brotherly status with Pakistan, yet the "brother" was nowhere around during Feb 26th 2019 events. At least I'm unaware of it.

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## Nomad40

Knuckles said:


> Nobody is, there's a difference between being called allies and friends. Which also makes me wary of China's supposedly brotherly status with Pakistan, yet the "brother" was nowhere around during Feb 26th 2019 events. At least I'm unaware of it.


That is true and same to speak of turkey, and the bulk of Arab nation's where our servicemen serve.

Yet our populous utter "Long live PAK ________ friendship", WE ARE ALONE WE ALWAYS HAVE BEEN & WE WILL ALWAYS BE. In my personal opinion Pakistan armed forces, especial the Pakistan air force play's a vital role in the modernization of the Chinese forces and this seems to be a simple explanation along with trade developments.

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## Yasser76

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Yall should calm down in regards to arab states, They are not you're friend.



You are right with regards to Egypt, but Qatar and Saudi have always stood by Pakistan. It insults them if you put them under the same hat as Egypt or UAE

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## Raider 21

Yasser76 said:


> You are right with regards to Egypt, but Qatar and Saudi have always stood by Pakistan. It insults them if you put them under the same hat as Egypt or UAE


Sending financial aid does not mean the same as being allies. If they have stood, it would've been out of their own interests.



Mirage Battle Commander said:


> That is true and same to speak of turkey, and the bulk of Arab nation's where our servicemen serve.
> 
> Yet our populous utter "Long live PAK ________ friendship", *WE ARE ALONE WE ALWAYS HAVE BEEN & WE WILL ALWAYS BE*. In my personal opinion Pakistan armed forces, especial the Pakistan air force play's a vital role in the modernization of the Chinese forces and this seems to be a simple explanation along with trade developments.


They don't serve but work as civilians. Most of the officers don't wear ranks, and the ones who do are often sent on deputations from PAF.

And this ALONE term doesn't just apply to Pakistan, applies to every country out there.

Anyways let's keep the discussion to F-16s.

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## baqai

Knuckles said:


> Anyways let's keep the discussion to F-16s.



what's your take on this "designed for Pakistan developed in Pakistan" Indus Viper patch


----------



## Trailer23

Armchair said:


> And they did just sell Horus Mirages.


Really, I thought that was just a hoax 'cause I haven't heard of us getting any since the news broke out. Some guys even stated that the deal is as good as dead.

But in all honesty, people here are placing orders for F-16's like I order Pizza.

_"Yeah, Pizza Hut. I'll take some Block 72's. With some Aim-120D. Yeah, Targeting Pod. AESA - is it on offer?_

[Wife: Hold the Mushrooms]​
_Aim-9X and EW Suite. Deliver it - or I don't pay up."
_
Seriously, WTF! Lets just manage the county - deal with this CoVID-19, first. Get out of FATF's grey-list. Pay off the IMF. Get our Economy running.

M.C. F-16 anay hoengay, tou ajaeyngay.​


baqai said:


> what's your take on this "designed for Pakistan developed in Pakistan" Indus Viper patch


Mairay bhai, that is a Design done on Adobe Illustrator/Photoshop.

Here, I *actually* had Patches made for someone. Its no big deal.

- I can get the same Patch made
- Put it on the .net/Facebook/Twitter/Instawhatever
- Wait for someone to pick it up.
- Upload it on PDF.
- Mission Accomplished.

Here, see for yourself...

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## Dreamer.

Trailer23 said:


> Here, see for yourself...


nice video but what's with the ridiculous & noisy music?

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## baqai

Trailer23 said:


> Really, I thought that was just a hoax 'cause I haven't heard of us getting any since the news broke out. Some guys even stated that the deal is as good as dead.
> 
> But in all honesty, people here are placing orders for F-16's like I order Pizza.
> 
> _"Yeah, Pizza Hut. I'll take some Block 72's. With some Aim-120D. Yeah, Targeting Pod. AESA - is it on offer?_
> 
> [Wife: Hold the Mushrooms]​
> _Aim-9X and EW Suite. Deliver it - or I don't pay up."
> _
> Seriously, WTF! Lets just manage the county - deal with this CoVID-19, first. Get out of FATF's grey-list. Pay off the IMF. Get our Economy running.
> 
> M.C. F-16 anay hoengay, tou ajaeyngay.​
> 
> Mairay bhai, that is a Design done on Adobe Illustrator/Photoshop.
> 
> Here, I *actually* had Patches made for someone. Its no big deal.
> 
> - I can get the same Patch made
> - Put it on the .net/Facebook/Twitter/Instawhatever
> - Wait for someone to pick it up.
> - Upload it on PDF.
> - Mission Accomplished.
> 
> Here, see for yourself...



i know it can be easily done, i do that for living  but my point is that the OP of that patch is not someone who goes around posting BS out of his a$$ so that stirred my interest

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## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> - I can get the same Patch made
> - Put it on the .net/Facebook/Twitter/Instawhatever
> - Wait for someone to pick it up.
> - Upload it on PDF.
> - Mission Accomplished.
> 
> Here, see for yourself...


Agreed with everything except for source part,you wont find it on any Social media dated before my post.

Not saying news is totally legit or anything like that.Its just a patch.

Patches for High Mark 2019 were designed and even printed but HM 19 never happened.

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## Trailer23

Dreamer. said:


> nice video but what's with the ridiculous & noisy music?


Its called: *Electronic music*
...used in a L&O spinoff called: _Conviction_

Its also called: My Video/My Channel/My Choice of music.

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## mshan44



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## Akh1112

Trailer23 said:


> Really, I thought that was just a hoax 'cause I haven't heard of us getting any since the news broke out. Some guys even stated that the deal is as good as dead.
> 
> But in all honesty, people here are placing orders for F-16's like I order Pizza.
> 
> _"Yeah, Pizza Hut. I'll take some Block 72's. With some Aim-120D. Yeah, Targeting Pod. AESA - is it on offer?_
> 
> [Wife: Hold the Mushrooms]​
> _Aim-9X and EW Suite. Deliver it - or I don't pay up."
> _
> Seriously, WTF! Lets just manage the county - deal with this CoVID-19, first. Get out of FATF's grey-list. Pay off the IMF. Get our Economy running.
> 
> M.C. F-16 anay hoengay, tou ajaeyngay.​
> 
> Mairay bhai, that is a Design done on Adobe Illustrator/Photoshop.
> 
> Here, I *actually* had Patches made for someone. Its no big deal.
> 
> - I can get the same Patch made
> - Put it on the .net/Facebook/Twitter/Instawhatever
> - Wait for someone to pick it up.
> - Upload it on PDF.
> - Mission Accomplished.
> 
> Here, see for yourself...




Where can i buy these Patches?


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## Yasser76

Knuckles said:


> Sending financial aid does not mean the same as being allies. If they have stood, it would've been out of their own interests.
> 
> 
> They don't serve but work as civilians. Most of the officers don't wear ranks, and the ones who do are often sent on deputations from PAF.
> 
> And this ALONE term doesn't just apply to Pakistan, applies to every country out there.
> 
> Anyways let's keep the discussion to F-16s.



You are a very confused person. Of course anyone who supports someone as an ally does so out of self interest. Do you think it is out of love?


----------



## Trailer23

We're approaching the 1000-page mark and the only good thing that has come out of it is a few pictures and occasional videos.

We lost Windjammer - who occasionally had some news to reveal. EXTRA! EXTRA! Read all about it.

Truth be told, its just been an emotional roller-coaster ride discussing everything from used F-16's to F-21.

But coming back to the Topic at hand (yet again)...

Lets say for the sake of argument and hypothetical situation..., why would the United States all of a sudden cozy up to Pakistan, now? What's in it for them?

They aren't gonna engage Pakistan out of the goodness of their heart. What's the angle?

- Does it have anything to do with Afghan Peace Process?
- Are they (finally) convinced that Pakistan has finally decided that we don't need their equipment and can now deal with China and look at their more advanced equipment and/or co-develop future 5th Gen Jets?
- Has CoVID-19 put such a dent in their Orders that they're looking for Cash?
[Seriously..., Pakistan?!!]​- Or is this a tactic to bring the F-35* in the equation?

*Its clear as day that India has given everyone the finger as far as the MRCA 2.0 is concerned. The US also know that India is not interested in their Boeing F-18 Super Hornet, nor, is it impressed by the newly packaged F-21. Now if (and that's a big IF) - the United States were to convince India to drop the S-400, they could be in a position to sell the F-35 to India.

Now all this may not pan out as I may have stated, but selling the F-35 shouldn't be that big of a deal 'cause lets face it - they're offering it to the Czech Republic. And India has deep pockets to place a big order.

This is where Pakistan and the F-16 could come in the equation. By selling F-35's to our adversaries - they would need to maintain a balance in the region. This is where they could offer us certain options.
1. Buy from 'em directly.
2. Assembly Line in Pakistan - although, I think it would be a deal similar to the one that was offered to India. Wings - Vertical Stabilizer (Tail section) with TATA Industries.

Lets see how it pans out in the coming days, but i'm not convinced...

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## Akh1112

Trailer23 said:


> We're approaching the 1000-page mark and the only good thing that has come out of it is a few pictures and occasional videos.
> 
> We lost Windjammer - who occasionally had some news to reveal. EXTRA! EXTRA! Read all about it.
> 
> Truth be told, its just been an emotional roller-coaster ride discussing everything from used F-16's to F-21.
> 
> But coming back to the Topic at hand (yet again)...
> 
> Lets say for the sake of argument and hypothetical situation..., why would the United States all of a sudden cozy up to Pakistan, now? What's in it for them?
> 
> They aren't gonna engage Pakistan out of the goodness of their heart. What's the angle?
> 
> - Does it have anything to do with Afghan Peace Process?
> - Are they (finally) convinced that Pakistan has finally decided that we don't need their equipment and can now deal with China and look at their more advanced equipment and/or co-develop future 5th Gen Jets?
> - Has CoVID-19 put such a dent in their Orders that they're looking for Cash?
> [Seriously..., Pakistan?!!]​- Or is this a tactic to bring the F-35* in the equation?
> 
> *Its clear as day that India has given everyone the finger as far as the MRCA 2.0 is concerned. The US also know that India is not interested in their Boeing F-18 Super Hornet, nor, is it impressed by the newly packaged F-21. Now if (and that's a big IF) - the United States were to convince India to drop the S-400, they could be in a position to sell the F-35 to India.
> 
> Now all this may not pan out as I may have stated, but selling the F-35 shouldn't be that big of a deal 'cause lets face it - they're offering it to the Czech Republic. And India has deep pockets to place a big order.
> 
> This is where Pakistan and the F-16 could come in the equation. By selling F-35's to our adversaries - they would need to maintain a balance in the region. This is where they could offer us certain options.
> 1. Buy from 'em directly.
> 2. Assembly Line in Pakistan - although, I think it would be a deal similar to the one that was offered to India. Wings - Vertical Stabilizer (Tail section) with TATA Industries.
> 
> Lets see how it pans out in the coming days, but i'm not convinced...



*"They aren't gonna engage Pakistan out of the goodness of their heart. What's the angle?"
*
Realistically, selling us Arms is the best form of keeping us under control. It allows the US significant leverage over us. Say in a hypothetical situation, the Chinese decide they want a naval base at Gwadar, the US could use the leverage from the purchase to prevent this from happening, i.e a complete embargo on a bunch of VERY expensive and vital assets. This is a VERY extreme scenario however, but its just a way for the US to keep us under its sphere of influence without stepping over boundaries and confronting China. 

*"Does it have anything to do with Afghan Peace Process?
- Are they (finally) convinced that Pakistan has finally decided that we don't need their equipment and can now deal with China and look at their more advanced equipment and/or co-develop future 5th Gen Jets?
- Has CoVID-19 put such a dent in their Orders that they're looking for Cash?"
*
I feel like the APP wont gain us much leverage over the USA. It is a mutually beneficial agreement that brings us and the USA tangible benefits, if it was one sided im sure we could pull some things out of the bag. It will definitely warm relations that can lead to X or Y however. 

I also am personally of the view that if the PAF could access some form of credit and have some cost subsidised, they would hop onto US arms purchases again, in some areas the US is very mature and others cannot match it yet. Missile tech, radars, engines, ew etc. Not to say others wont catch up, just for now, an easier option is to buy off the shelf, i think at least.

I also don't think that COVID has had a huge effect on the defense industry as a whole, literally today Japan announced an order for 109 F-35's so it definitely is not that either.

*"Or is this a tactic to bring the F-35* in the equation?

*Its clear as day that India has given everyone the finger as far as the MRCA 2.0 is concerned. The US also know that India is not interested in their Boeing F-18 Super Hornet, nor, is it impressed by the newly packaged F-21. Now if (and that's a big IF) - the United States were to convince India to drop the S-400, they could be in a position to sell the F-35 to India.

Now all this may not pan out as I may have stated, but selling the F-35 shouldn't be that big of a deal 'cause lets face it - they're offering it to the Czech Republic. And India has deep pockets to place a big order."*

India is really aiming towards self reliance, i feel like the Rafale will be their least imported fighter type. Also, India has always wanted large amounts of ToT, the nature of the F-35 will limit the amount of ToT they can get, they also have ridiculous requirements like making the OEM responsible for airframes that are produced at HAL, knowing HAL, this is a terrible idea for OEMs. There is also the security risk of the fact that India still operates mostly Russian equipment which opens up the issue of Espionage and surveillance on behalf of Russia to try to compromise the F-35 and learn about its capabilities. This could be done via their aircraft or even their air defense network for example.

*"This is where Pakistan and the F-16 could come in the equation. By selling F-35's to our adversaries - they would need to maintain a balance in the region. This is where they could offer us certain options.
1. Buy from 'em directly.
2. Assembly Line in Pakistan - although, I think it would be a deal similar to the one that was offered to India. Wings - Vertical Stabilizer (Tail section) with TATA Industries."*

While the F-16V is not as secretive as the F-35 it still makes use of highly classified tech that the US would not want in the hands of adversaries, this would be a worry for the US considering our close relationship with China especially since the F-16V shares/makes use of derived components from the F-35 etc.


I think for the PAF to push for the V, all that is needed is CSF and a Loan lol, we love our vipers

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## Raider 21

Yasser76 said:


> You are a very confused person. Of course anyone who supports someone as an ally does so out of self interest. Do you think it is out of love?


Hilarious 

Cheers

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## Nomad40

Yasser76 said:


> You are right with regards to Egypt, but Qatar and Saudi have always stood by Pakistan. It insults them if you put them under the same hat as Egypt or UAE


Saudi ? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA hand palm.







The most battle worn F-16 I have seen

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## gangsta_rap

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Saudi ? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA hand palm.





Horus said:


> But now the situation is weird , i see some of the gulf states , nominally UAE , Bahrain and Qatar are quite visible in harboring/sheltering BLA terrorists and their financiers [Saudi Arabia is not involved on any level] .


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## Dazzler

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1281218059932446721

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## Tomcats

Akh1112 said:


> Now if (and that's a big IF) - the United States were to convince India to drop the S-400, they could be in a position to sell the F-35 to India.



Given current events and Indian actions recently i very much doubt the S-400 deal being derailed anytime soon so it will make for an interesting dilemma for the U.S as to what action they will take next in regards to India.


----------



## kursed

Not my patch...

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## Adam_Khan

kursed said:


> View attachment 649882
> Not my patch...




These are all fanboy made patches dear.

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## Scorpiooo

kursed said:


> View attachment 649882
> Not my patch...


When did F16V become F161V , strange work by fanboy


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## The Eagle

Scorpiooo said:


> F161V



Not the 1V but IV that stands for "Indus Viper". Just saying.

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## The Raven

Trailer23 said:


> We're approaching the 1000-page mark and the only good thing that has come out of it is a few pictures and occasional videos.
> 
> We lost Windjammer - who occasionally had some news to reveal. EXTRA! EXTRA! Read all about it.
> 
> Truth be told, its just been an emotional roller-coaster ride discussing everything from used F-16's to F-21.
> 
> But coming back to the Topic at hand (yet again)...
> 
> Lets say for the sake of argument and hypothetical situation..., why would the United States all of a sudden cozy up to Pakistan, now? What's in it for them?
> 
> They aren't gonna engage Pakistan out of the goodness of their heart. What's the angle?
> 
> - Does it have anything to do with Afghan Peace Process?
> - Are they (finally) convinced that Pakistan has finally decided that we don't need their equipment and can now deal with China and look at their more advanced equipment and/or co-develop future 5th Gen Jets?
> - Has CoVID-19 put such a dent in their Orders that they're looking for Cash?
> [Seriously..., Pakistan?!!]​- Or is this a tactic to bring the F-35* in the equation?
> 
> *Its clear as day that India has given everyone the finger as far as the MRCA 2.0 is concerned. The US also know that India is not interested in their Boeing F-18 Super Hornet, nor, is it impressed by the newly packaged F-21. Now if (and that's a big IF) - the United States were to convince India to drop the S-400, they could be in a position to sell the F-35 to India.
> 
> Now all this may not pan out as I may have stated, but selling the F-35 shouldn't be that big of a deal 'cause lets face it - they're offering it to the Czech Republic. And India has deep pockets to place a big order.
> 
> This is where Pakistan and the F-16 could come in the equation. By selling F-35's to our adversaries - they would need to maintain a balance in the region. This is where they could offer us certain options.
> 1. Buy from 'em directly.
> 2. Assembly Line in Pakistan - although, I think it would be a deal similar to the one that was offered to India. Wings - Vertical Stabilizer (Tail section) with TATA Industries.
> 
> Lets see how it pans out in the coming days, but i'm not convinced...



As I alluded to in another post, the Yanks would have loved to sell the F-35 and the F-21 production line to the indians, but then they shot themselves in the foot with CAATSA and the indians buying the S-400. They can't eject the Turks and deny them access to the F-35 and its technologies because they acquire the S-400, only for the US to then do the complete opposite with the indians. It would effectively make a mockery of US foreign policy, even more than it already is, and send the wrong signals to the other allies of the US.

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## Viper27

kursed said:


> View attachment 649882
> Not my patch...



For the sake argument if this were true..why would this not happen at Jacobabad which was upgraded by the Americans and has decent facilities?

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## Imran Khan

cloud4000 said:


> "...need to maintain a balance in the region." is a Cold War mentality that has become outdated. It's clear as day the US no longer seeks any balance in the region but is clearly tilted toward India. And China is the region. Just look at the pro-India and anti-China statements over the Galwan border clash.
> 
> 
> 
> India is a unique position in that it can have warm relations with both Russia and the US. Sure, US doesn't like the S-400 deal but it's not going to make a stink as it did with Turkey (a NATO ally). India may never buy a US fighter jet but still has bought billions in other military equipment. No way US will rock that ship.


please keep indian away from PAKISTAN F-16 thread .

@The Eagle please clear it now otherwise you have to clean so many pages once its started

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## Blacklight

Viper27 said:


> For the sake argument if this were true..why would this not happen at Jacobabad which was *upgraded by the Americans *and has decent facilities?


It was upgraded by us, not them.

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## Viper27

Blacklight said:


> It was upgraded by us, not them.



I am referring to the days when it was used as a logistics and SOF base and the Americans had to set up even basic toilet facilities for their troops. All of it is well documented. You are talking about upgrades done after arrival of our F-16s.

Anyway my query remains unanswered


----------



## Blacklight

Viper27 said:


> I am referring to the days when it was used as a logistics and SOF base and the *Americans had to set up even basic toilet facilities for their troops.* All of it is well documented. You are talking about upgrades done after arrival of our F-16s.
> 
> Anyway my query remains unanswered


You rightly said it, they did it for themselves, so why bring something irrelevant like that into the conversation?

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## Raider 21

Viper27 said:


> I am referring to the days when it was used as a logistics and SOF base and the Americans had to set up even basic toilet facilities for their troops. All of it is well documented. You are talking about upgrades done after arrival of our F-16s.
> 
> Anyway my query remains unanswered


I'd say largely American influenced. The architecture style is very modern and reflects well for an airbase.

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## Dazzler

As per Alan Warnes, ''PAF's F-16 MLUs Consistently Beat Saudi Eagles and Typhoons During Manoeuvres in Taif, RSA... PAF were asked to Fly Red and Blue Air. The Saudi Typhoon CO Was Allegedly So Hacked off He Didn't Go To Debrief.

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## StormBreaker

Dazzler said:


> As per Alan Warnes, ''PAF's F-16 MLUs Consistently Beat Saudi Eagles and Typhoons During Manoeuvres in Taif, RSA... PAF were asked to Fly Red and Blue Air. The Saudi Typhoon CO Was Allegedly So Hacked off He Didn't Go To Debrief.


Why is it like that ?
Does RSAF lack the training or dedication?


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## Dazzler

StormBreaker said:


> Why is it like that ?
> Does RSAF lack the training or dedication?



Numerous factors, training being one of them. PAF has taken the art of dogfight and manoeuvring to a new level in the last two decades.

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## Raider 21

Dazzler said:


> As per Alan Warnes, ''PAF's F-16 MLUs Consistently Beat Saudi Eagles and Typhoons During Manoeuvres in Taif, RSA... PAF were asked to Fly Red and Blue Air. *The Saudi Typhoon CO Was Allegedly So Hacked off He Didn't Go To Debrief.*


That sounds like an alleged claim, probably enhanced with some spice.



StormBreaker said:


> Why is it like that ?
> *Does RSAF lack the training or dedication?*


Not quite, they've gotten a lot better and have surprised the best in Red Flags. They rely less on training their flight cadets abroad, most are now trained in Saudi Arabia. A lot of foreign IP's are no longer required there, notably Pakistanis.

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## Viper27

Dazzler said:


> As per Alan Warnes, ''PAF's F-16 MLUs Consistently Beat Saudi Eagles and Typhoons During Manoeuvres in Taif, RSA... PAF were asked to Fly Red and Blue Air. The Saudi Typhoon CO Was Allegedly So Hacked off He Didn't Go To Debrief.



Wasn't the contest with Italian Typhoons?


----------



## Yasser76

Knuckles said:


> That sounds like an alleged claim, probably enhanced with some spice.
> 
> 
> Not quite, they've gotten a lot better and have surprised the best in Red Flags. They rely less on training their flight cadets abroad, most are now trained in Saudi Arabia. A lot of foreign IP's are no longer required there, notably Pakistanis.



Lots of Saudis still pass through Risalpur and Kakul. If they lack basic skills some of the fault is ours. From what I hear Saudi Armed forces are becoming more professional and long gone are the days when it was only Princes flying F-15Cs.

Number of Saudi cadets at Kakul around 50-60 every year.

In fact if you look at every Pakistani staff college intake you will see that of the 40 Foreign officers going through Pak Staff College every year (Major/Lt Col rank), almost half are from Saudi Arabia.

https://cscquetta.gov.pk/Hist_alumni.php?start=0&ctry=&sc=2014/15


Considering their entire armed forces are only 120,000 strong (and only 5,000 of these will be officers), that indicates that at a substantial amount, of all Saudi Officers cadets and mid level officers receive training in Pakistan.


Reason for this is 3 fold.

1) More and more middle class Saudis now occupying officers slots, often bright and with technical education. As mentioned, many trained to Pakistani standards
2) The abundance of advanced weaponry means Pilots/Soldiers must have at least a minimum skill set to operate
3) Even though they suffered casualties in Yemen they learned valuable lessons both on the ground and in the air. Pakistan has also shared many of it's lessons and still conducts large scale exercises with Saudi Air and Ground forces. Pak Mil and Saudi relationship is extremely close, I would say military to military closer then any relationship either country has with any other country.

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## untitled

A lot of 'googling' is taking place around the world


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## AMRAAM

untitled said:


> View attachment 650251
> 
> 
> A lot of 'googling' is taking place around the world



I just googeld it and found this. Anybody knows if it was materialized or canceled or the aircrafts are waiting to be delivered?

It dates back to 2016. 


https://dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/government-pakistan-f-16-block-52-aircraft


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## Trailer23

AMRAAM said:


> Anybody knows if it was materialized or canceled or the aircrafts are waiting to be delivered?
> 
> It dates back to 2016.


Been discussed a number of times.

You know the term: Water Under the Bridge.

Yeah well, this is something like that. Back in 2016, the US Congress had approved the Sale of those very Eight F-16's, but the deal didn't go through because the Foreign Military Financing (FMF).

https://thediplomat.com/2016/05/us-wont-subsidize-pakistans-purchase-of-f-16-fighter-jets/

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## Bossman

StormBreaker said:


> Why is it like that ?
> Does RSAF lack the training or dedication?


Aggression


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## Raider 21

Yasser76 said:


> Lots of Saudis still pass through Risalpur and Kakul. If they lack basic skills some of the fault is ours. From what I hear Saudi Armed forces are becoming more professional and long gone are the days when it was only Princes flying F-15Cs.
> 
> Number of Saudi cadets at Kakul around 50-60 every year.
> 
> In fact if you look at every Pakistani staff college intake you will see that of the 40 Foreign officers going through Pak Staff College every year (Major/Lt Col rank), almost half are from Saudi Arabia.
> 
> https://cscquetta.gov.pk/Hist_alumni.php?start=0&ctry=&sc=2014/15
> 
> 
> Considering their entire armed forces are only 120,000 strong (and only 5,000 of these will be officers), that indicates that at a substantial amount, of all Saudi Officers cadets and mid level officers receive training in Pakistan.
> 
> 
> Reason for this is 3 fold.
> 
> 1) More and more middle class Saudis now occupying officers slots, often bright and with technical education. As mentioned, many trained to Pakistani standards
> 2) The abundance of advanced weaponry means Pilots/Soldiers must have at least a minimum skill set to operate
> 3) Even though they suffered casualties in Yemen they learned valuable lessons both on the ground and in the air. Pakistan has also shared many of it's lessons and still conducts large scale exercises with Saudi Air and Ground forces. Pak Mil and Saudi relationship is extremely close, I would say military to military closer then any relationship either country has with any other country.


I don't follow up with Army, but at Risalpur they're mostly aeronautical engineering cadets. They no longer send aviation cadets for flying, as they don't need to. They have their own courses and their training phases are far more advanced.



Bossman said:


> Aggression


Pretty aggressive during ops in the south against Houthis

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## mshan44



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## SQ8

Knuckles said:


> I don't follow up with Army, but at Risalpur they're mostly aeronautical engineering cadets. They no longer send aviation cadets for flying, as they don't need to. They have their own courses and their training phases are far more advanced.
> 
> 
> Pretty aggressive during ops in the south against Houthis


Inshallah all these myths built up around the PAF will shatter in front of the countrymen to really reveal the combination of luck/prayers and plain hard work that keeps it as effective as it has managed so far.

This idea that we deserve attention and respect because we are indispensable to other nations is a cancer to national mentality.

The only way Pakistanis will wake up is when everyone abandons Pakistan and there is no savior left except themselves. No Arabs “owing” us favors, no Chinese “mountain high” friendships... etc

India failed in its isolation attempts but they really would have been good to the general population in the long run - when the only options would be to cannibalize each other, commit hara kiri or finally take charge and move up.

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## Imran Khan



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## Irfan Baloch

Quote of the month



SQ8 said:


> *This idea that we deserve attention and respect because we are indispensable to other nations is a cancer to national mentality*.

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16A-ADF-Fighting-Falcon/2838

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## araz

SQ8 said:


> Inshallah all these myths built up around the PAF will shatter in front of the countrymen to really reveal the combination of luck/prayers and plain hard work that keeps it as effective as it has managed so far.
> This idea that we deserve attention and respect because we are indispensable to other nations is a cancer to national mentality.
> 
> The only way Pakistanis will wake up is when everyone abandons Pakistan and there is no savior left except themselves. No Arabs “owing” us favors, no Chinese “mountain high” friendships... etc
> 
> India failed in its isolation attempts but they really would have been good to the general population in the long run - when the only options would be to cannibalize each other, commit hara kiri or finally take charge and move up.


Allama SQ8.
As always a brilliant post. The Pakistani mentality stems out of Had harami and needs the nation to be woken up. I am no soothsayer but it will need a big catastrophy to possibly wake this lazy nation up. They now have a PM who exercises daily in the AM. I hope he can instill this idea into the nation. Life is not about returning from work( having sat there and discussing politics interspersed with SOME WORK) eating and dunking your wick( if they can and are not affected by the various illnesses doing the rounds) before snoring the house down.
A

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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> Allama SQ8.
> As always a brilliant post. The Pakistani mentality stems out of Had harami and needs the nation to be woken up. I am no soothsayer but it will need a big catastrophy to possibly wake this lazy nation up. They now have a PM who exercises daily in the AM. I hope he can instill this idea into the nation. Life is not about returning from work( having sat there and discussing politics interspersed with SOME WORK) eating and dunking your wick( if they can and are not affected by the various illnesses doing the rounds) before snoring the house down.
> A


I think the poor are still living in a catastrophy its the educated middle class and upper class that needs an awakening

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16AM-Fighting-Falcon/2851

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## Aamir Hussain

The so called educated middle class is stuck between the mullah and modern education....confused and directionless that is why love to embrace all conspiracy theories and Sazish syndrome. See the COVID-19 response by the general public. The middle class led the campaign of "Kidhar hai corona? Hum nay tu nahee dekha!"

I believe that there are three types of people in this world, One who make things happen, two who see things happening and then there is the third kind who wonder what happened!! We as a nation belong to the last two!!

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## Armchair

Pakistan or whatever nation / peoples, or whatever organizations they constitute (PAF / PA / PN), all human being deserve attention and respect. 

Just hear the sound of the reverse - deserving being ignored and disrespect unless you are some kind of golden goose. 

Every human beings deserves respect and to be heard. It has nothing to do with being indispensable - that mindset is the colonized mindset - as if one needs to do something amazing to please the white master so that he will give him attention or respect. 

Anyways, I think this is all off topic so I will just reply to this and later delete this post - but I thought this needed correction - as it is based on the wrong premise. 


SQ8 said:


> This idea that we deserve attention and respect because we are indispensable to other nations is a cancer to national mentality.

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## ghazi52



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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16AM-Fighting-Falcon/1258

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## mshan44



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## litman

air marshal said:


> https://www.falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16AM-Fighting-Falcon/1258


F-16 A, C in with no payload and a single centreline fuel tank seems to be the most beautiful aircraft.

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## Incog_nito

Will there be a problem or no problem if PAF wanted to acquire used F-16s from Venezuela with US approval?


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## The Eagle

Incog_nito said:


> Will there be a problem or no problem if PAF wanted to acquire used F-16s from Venezuela with US approval?



Couple of things like whether we need them or those air-frames are what we are looking for etc etc (especially the block wise) but then comes the apparent problem that are those frames worth the money asked for and how much we have in our pockets to pay upfront.

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## litman

Incog_nito said:


> Will there be a problem or no problem if PAF wanted to acquire used F-16s from Venezuela with US approval?


it seems these F-16s also dont have BVR capability so they are pretty much useless just like the F-16 ADF which we got from jordan


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## nangyale

A more logical argument is why would Pakistan even consider Venezuelan F-16s. 
I mean if you really wanted to destroy Pak-US relationship that is the deal you would like to pull.
It's not like Pakistan is desperate to keep it's fleet of F-16s airworthy and want to induct those for cannibalisation. 
That could have been an idea before the US lifted sanctions. But nowadays even to consider such a decision would be the height of stupidity.



Incog_nito said:


> Will there be a problem or no problem if PAF wanted to acquire used F-16s from Venezuela with US approval?

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## Yasser76

Incog_nito said:


> Will there be a problem or no problem if PAF wanted to acquire used F-16s from Venezuela with US approval?



These will have very questionable service record, maintenence history and maybe old parts in them. Best avoided unless for spares source. Also legal hurdle of getting them

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## Incog_nito

litman said:


> it seems these F-16s also dont have BVR capability so they are pretty much useless just like the F-16 ADF which we got from jordan



*Venezuela F-16s:*

There airframes & Engines will be overhauled.
MLU-4 or any other Avionics package will be required.
*Jordanian F-16s:*

There airframes & Engines will be overhauled if needed.
MLU-4 or any other Avionics package will be required.

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## litman

Incog_nito said:


> *Venezuela F-16s:*
> 
> There airframes & Engines will be overhauled.
> MLU-4 or any other Avionics package will be required.
> *Jordanian F-16s:*
> 
> There airframes & Engines will be overhauled if needed.
> MLU-4 or any other Avionics package will be required.


too many "WILLs". that means never.

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## Incog_nito

litman said:


> too many "WILLs". that means never.


Let's see. US perception for Pakistan is changing as they now know Pakistan pays in cash for everything.

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## jupiter2007

nangyale said:


> A more logical argument is why would Pakistan even consider Venezuelan F-16s.
> I mean if you really wanted to destroy Pak-US relationship that is the deal you would like to pull.
> It's not like Pakistan is desperate to keep it's fleet of F-16s airworthy and want to induct those for cannibalisation.
> That could have been an idea before the US lifted sanctions. But nowadays even to consider such a decision would be the height of stupidity.



I think Pakistan has lost all hoped for additional F-16s and pretty much in China’s camp. Anything new coming will be coming from China.

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## Ali_Baba

jupiter2007 said:


> I think Pakistan has lost all hoped for additional F-16s and pretty much in China’s camp. Anything new coming will be coming from China.



The financial risk (of paying and not getting the product or your money back) and security risk(comprimised platforms with jamming codes provided to India) are so high that it is no longer worth the risk. Align that with the fact that the america wont give their top draw technology(AIM-260), if you want to roll the dice and take a chance that it is not worth it at any level..


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## jupiter2007

Ali_Baba said:


> The financial risk (of paying and not getting the product or your money back) and security risk(comprimised platforms with jamming codes provided to India) are so high that it is no longer worth the risk. Align that with the fact that the america wont give their top draw technology(AIM-260), if you want to roll the dice and take a chance that it is not worth it at any level..



Any purchase from USA will have the conditions and risk factor. It’s better to go with customized solution which will allow flexibility of Radar, Avionics and weapons but introducing new platform is not going to be easy because of cost, required infrastructure and training. Having said that, some jackass is spreading rumors that we are getting 18 to 24 block 70.

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## Nomad40



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## untitled

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> View attachment 655264


Singapore F16?


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## Raider 21

Incog_nito said:


> Will there be a problem or no problem if PAF wanted to acquire used F-16s from Venezuela with US approval?


Will be a problem as it was an FMS program with Venezuela. Also Venezuela has been getting Israeli systems being upgraded into their Vipers. They are not that keen to let them go.


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## FLIR

untitled said:


> Singapore F16?


no aggressor !

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## AMRAAM

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> View attachment 655264



Any details bro?


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## Windjammer

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> View attachment 655264


Old image from Red Flag 2008.

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## Incog_nito

Knuckles said:


> Will be a problem as it was an FMS program with Venezuela. Also Venezuela has been getting Israeli systems being upgraded into their Vipers. They are not that keen to let them go.



That's not possible the US is not allowing them to fly those F-16s and Israel won't be helping them with F-16s.

I'm not saying that Venuezvela is the only option for PAF, actually, USAF used Block-15s are the best bet for PAF with next-generation avionics.


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## Raider 21

Incog_nito said:


> That's not possible the US is not allowing them to fly those F-16s and Israel won't be helping them with F-16s.
> 
> I'm not saying that Venuezvela is the only option for PAF, actually, USAF used Block-15s are the best bet for PAF with next-generation avionics.


Venezuela is still flying Vipers without US support and they have Israeli manufactured systems installed a couple of years ago. Yes it will be an issue for PAF hence that option is not available. Plus Venezuela love their Vipers, not ready to let them go yet

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## Pogical Thinking

Any procurement of F-16's (new or old) will only happen after U.S elections.

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## Armchair

Pak was buying for a long time from Israel, just under the table, and through third parties. 



Knuckles said:


> Venezuela is still flying Vipers without US support and they have Israeli manufactured systems installed a couple of years ago. Yes it will be an issue for PAF hence that option is not available. Plus Venezuela love their Vipers, not ready to let them go yet



When Pak bought 18 F-16 Block 52, there were 18 more options that were also approved. I realized this after a long time. So, perhaps it is possible to acquire (not saying Pak is acquiring) F-16s now, before the elections. 8 + 8EDA would be beautiful.


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## Raider 21

Armchair said:


> *Pak was buying for a long time from Israel, just under the table, and through third parties. *
> 
> 
> 
> When Pak bought 18 F-16 Block 52, there were 18 more options that were also approved. I realized this after a long time. So, perhaps it is possible to acquire (not saying Pak is acquiring) F-16s now, before the elections. 8 + 8EDA would be beautiful.


GD (eventually LM) was still sending parts. F-16 pilot yearly hours barely dropped even during embargo. If it was through Israel then it must have been black market.

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## The Raven

Armchair said:


> Pak was buying for a long time from Israel, just under the table, and through third parties.
> 
> When Pak bought 18 F-16 Block 52, there were 18 more options that were also approved. I realized this after a long time. So, perhaps it is possible to acquire (not saying Pak is acquiring) F-16s now, before the elections. 8 + 8EDA would be beautiful.



But what about the "kills switches"? In another thread you were bemoaning the PAF for still using the Vipers because they are compromised by the mythical "kill switches".

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## nomi007

I think we are already very late to regarding F-16s up-gradation (F-16V). AESA radar is essential element to counter Rafale.


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## Thorough Pro

LOL 





Mirage Battle Commander said:


> View attachment 655264


----------



## Armchair

Knuckles said:


> GD (eventually LM) was still sending parts. F-16 pilot yearly hours barely dropped even during embargo. If it was through Israel then it must have been black market.



Pak bought a lot more than spare parts from Israel... one key capability of the 90s was from Israel via a third party. @denel probably knows a lot about it.

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## The Accountant

which key capability ?

There is nothing official. What you are talking about is probably black market purchases being handled by parties present in Israel of Israeli persons itself selling unofficially technological items.


Armchair said:


> Pak bought a lot more than spare parts from Israel... one key capability of the 90s was from Israel via a third party. @denel probably knows a lot about it.


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## air marshal

https://www.falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16C-Fighting-Falcon/2010

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## denel

Armchair said:


> Pak bought a lot more than spare parts from Israel... one key capability of the 90s was from Israel via a third party. @denel probably knows a lot about it.


Sorry, it is not know my knowledge area.

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## Yasser76

air marshal said:


> https://www.falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16C-Fighting-Falcon/2010




Turkish pilot with PAF patch for PAF pilot on exchange?


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## Nomad40

AMRAAM said:


> Any details bro?


red flag exercise quite a while back----just to show that IAF is actively training with USAF aggressor squadrons
and in the past they also have been training with F-15's.

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## The Raven

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> red flag exercise quite a while back----just to show that IAF is actively training with USAF aggressor squadrons
> and in the past they also have been training with F-15's.



And on all those occasions it didn't end well for the IAF. 27th last showed that they hadn't learnt anything.


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## Sinnerman108

denel said:


> Sorry, it is not know my knowledge area.



SA was the conduit and a very helpful one at that.

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## Nomad40

The Raven said:


> And on all those occasions it didn't end well for the IAF. 27th last showed that they hadn't learnt anything.


actually they do pretty good. 

PAF is just a whole different ball game.


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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-Martin-F-16D-Fighting-Falcon/2885

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## Thorough Pro

Sometimes the sanctions are nothing more than a political drama for public display, and governments knowingly allow certain entities to keep doing business under the table as they don't want to sever the relations permanently.






Knuckles said:


> GD (eventually LM) was still sending parts. F-16 pilot yearly hours barely dropped even during embargo. If it was through Israel then it must have been black market.

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## Tair-Lahoti

Thorough Pro said:


> Sometimes the sanctions are nothing more than a political drama for public display, and governments knowingly allow certain entities to keep doing business under the table as they don't want to sever the relations permanently.


USA is controlled by oil and arms dealers and US do whatever is required to please them. "Blood Diamon", the movie, narrated similar story, in which US fund both government forces and rebels and provide arms to diamond mafia through private contractors. So, agree these sanctions can be just to scare the world.

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## Tair-Lahoti

*Despite Ban, U.S. Arms Are Sold to Pakistan*
By MURRAY WAAS AND DOUGLAS FRANTZ (1992)

Despite a ban on military sales to Pakistan by the U.S. government, the Bush Administration has quietly permitted the Pakistani armed forces to buy American-made arms from commercial firms for the last year and a half, according to classified documents and Administration officials.

Among the military items licensed for sale to Pakistan are spare parts for American-made F-16 fighter planes, which form the nucleus of Islamabad’s air force, Administration officials confirmed. The volume of sales could not be determined. But officials said the equipment is intended to help Pakistan maintain its current arsenal.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-03-06-mn-3321-story.html

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## airomerix



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## airomerix

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 657307


Watermark this. Before facebook explodes with this image.

Great and a rare share.

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## PanzerKiel

airomerix said:


> Watermark this. Before facebook explodes with this image.
> 
> Great and a rare share.



i took it...
....what if we let it remain rare??

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## untitled

PanzerKiel said:


> ....what if we let it remain rare??


That's not how social media works

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## PanzerKiel

untitled said:


>

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## PanzerKiel



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## Aamir Hussain

Sinnerman108 said:


> SA was the conduit and a very helpful one at that.


I know of a lot of South African corporate and techs in Pakistan during 2005 and 2006

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## Aamir Hussain

Armchair said:


> Pak bought a lot more than spare parts from Israel... one key capability of the 90s was from Israel via a third party. @denel probably knows a lot about it.


I believe you are referring to the DU Shells developed both by Pakistan and Israel together.

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## PanzerKiel

Complete No 11 Sqn on the Third consecutive Win of the TOPGUN trophy. OC 11 Wg Cmdr Raja Rizwan Ullah Khan (Shaheed) in front.

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## PanzerKiel

OC 11 Wg Cmdr Raja Rizwan Ullah Khan (Shaheed)

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## SQ8

PanzerKiel said:


> OC 11 Wg Cmdr Raja Rizwan Ullah Khan (Shaheed)


He narrated his story of dogfighting a F-14 after going after the CVBG which had gotten into Pakistani waters.

The F-14 lead was trying to toy with him in the Mirage with his long range tanks still on but as soon as he punched them and maneuvered behind the tomcat they panicked and started screaming. He had his fox-2 tone all the way before the F-14’s bugged out and the PAF pilots came back on vapors. 
Allegedly this is a reason why a certain F-14 squadron video exists on the internet with a quick look at a RIO holding a “f()c6 Pakistan” sign.

Also the same person who told me to bug out of Pakistan saying this country will waste me and better off outside - took that to heart.

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## Armchair

SQ8 said:


> He narrated his story of dogfighting a F-14 after going after the CVBG which had gotten into Pakistani waters.
> 
> The F-14 lead was trying to toy with him in the Mirage with his long range tanks still on but as soon as he punched them and maneuvered behind the tomcat they panicked and started screaming. He had his fox-2 tone all the way before the F-14’s bugged out and the PAF pilots came back on vapors.
> Allegedly this is a reason why a certain F-14 squadron video exists on the internet with a quick look at a RIO holding a “f()c6 Pakistan” sign.
> 
> Also the same person who told me to bug out of Pakistan saying this country will waste me and better off outside - took that to heart.



That's not how the Amreekis narrate it. They claim that the two mirages went behind an F-14, the other F-14 maneuvered behind them, and then the Mirages punched their tanks, and after that the show was called off by both sides.

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## Meejee

SQ8 said:


> He narrated his story of dogfighting a F-14 after going after the CVBG which had gotten into Pakistani waters.
> 
> The F-14 lead was trying to toy with him in the Mirage with his long range tanks still on but as soon as he punched them and maneuvered behind the tomcat they panicked and started screaming. He had his fox-2 tone all the way before the F-14’s bugged out and the PAF pilots came back on vapors.
> Allegedly this is a reason why *a certain F-14 squadron video exists on the internet with a quick look at a RIO holding a “f()c6 Pakistan” sign*.
> 
> Also the same person who told me to bug out of Pakistan saying this country will waste me and better off outside - took that to heart.



if appropriate, could you share the link to that video. Thanks.


----------



## The Raven

SQ8 said:


> He narrated his story of dogfighting a F-14 after going after the CVBG which had gotten into Pakistani waters.
> 
> The F-14 lead was trying to toy with him in the Mirage with his long range tanks still on but as soon as he punched them and maneuvered behind the tomcat they panicked and started screaming. He had his fox-2 tone all the way before the F-14’s bugged out and the PAF pilots came back on vapors.
> Allegedly this is a reason why a certain F-14 squadron video exists on the internet with a quick look at a RIO holding a “f()c6 Pakistan” sign.
> 
> Also the same person who told me to bug out of Pakistan saying this country will waste me and better off outside - took that to heart.



I don't think that sign in the video was because of that. It was because Pakistan refused the US overflight permission in the late 90s when Clinton wanted to bomb OSB for the attack on USS Cole. In the end the US launched cruise missile strikes.


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## AMRAAM

ACM Sohail Aman too.


PanzerKiel said:


> Complete No 11 Sqn on the Third consecutive Win of the TOPGUN trophy. OC 11 Wg Cmdr Raja Rizwan Ullah Khan (Shaheed) in front.

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## loanranger

SQ8 said:


> Also the same person who told me to bug out of Pakistan saying this country will waste me and better off outside - took that to heart


That burns my heart. To hear that from somebody who fought for our country say that. There are serious brain drain problems in Pakistan. Thats All I can say.

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## Nomad40

loanranger said:


> That burns my heart. To hear that from somebody who fought for our country say that. There are serious brain drain problems in Pakistan. Thats All I can say.


biggest reason why I am slacking. sad reality

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## ghazi52



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## airomerix

Fwded as received. Eid Mubarak everyone.

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## untitled

SQ8 said:


> quick look at a RIO holding a





Meejee said:


> if appropriate, could you share the link to that video. Thanks.



At 3:00

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## PakFactor

loanranger said:


> That burns my heart. To hear that from somebody who fought for our country say that. There are serious brain drain problems in Pakistan. Thats All I can say.



Pakistani's have a tendency to look else where to seek joy at times, rather than trying and improving the situation at home.

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## loanranger

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> biggest reason why I am slacking. sad reality


Listen you! You dare not slack. I am rooting for you. You can do it. PAF is not like that.Besides this is normal Pakistani doom and gloom talk. Things aren't as bad as they sound. Go till the end put your all in. So that you dont have regrets.

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## _NOBODY_

Is it possible that in future PAF may consider integrating Aselsan AESA radar which is created for TUAF F-16s? If yes then will US allow it?
@Quwa @araz @Tipu7


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## Tipu7

_NOBODY_ said:


> Is it possible that in future PAF may consider integrating Aselsan AESA radar which is created for TUAF F-16s? If yes then will US allow it?
> @Quwa @araz @Tipu7


No. Technically possible, but US will simply not allow it.

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## _NOBODY_

Tipu7 said:


> No. Technically possible, but US will simply not allow it.


Is the American AESA radar for F-16 compatible with older F-16s or modifications will be neeeded?


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## untitled

_NOBODY_ said:


> Is the American AESA radar for F-16 compatible with older F-16s or modifications will be neeeded?


All F16s can be retrofitted with the APG 83 SABR AESA Radar

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## _NOBODY_

untitled said:


> All F16s can be retrofitted with the APG 83 SABR AESA Radar


I hope all of our F-16s will be using SABR in the near future.


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## araz

_NOBODY_ said:


> I hope all of our F-16s will be using SABR in the near future.


One has to see the cost vs benefits. Cost of AESA would be anywhere between 7.5 to 12 million $ . Multiply that with 75 and you get a huge number. The second question is whether it is absolutely necessary. Apg68V9 is a very good radar for the indoPak arena and we dont have money growing on trees. I think block 52s should have the AESA Plus the new ones plus any block 32/42s which we acquire. That should be good enough. The 52s radar could go into the ocu s acquired from Jordan.
A
A

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## _NOBODY_

araz said:


> One has to see the cost vs benefits. Cost of AESA would be anywhere between 7.5 to 12 million $ . Multiply that with 75 and you get a huge number. The second question is whether it is absolutely necessary. Apg68V9 is a very good radar for the indoPak arena and we dont have money growing on trees. I think block 52s should have the AESA Plus the new ones plus any block 32/42s which we acquire. That should be good enough. The 52s radar could go into the ocu s acquired from Jordan.
> A
> A


That makes sense. If PAF acquires more used block 52s then it would be wise to get SABR on them too.

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## jupiter2007

_NOBODY_ said:


> That makes sense. If PAF acquires more used block 52s then it would be wise to get SABR on them too.



If Biden win the election then there is a possibility, otherwise it will be difficult to acquire any high tech military hardware from USA.


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## Imran Khan

jupiter2007 said:


> If Biden win the election then there is a possibility, otherwise it will be difficult to acquire any high tech military hardware from USA.


there is no such need for it . just forget US high tech for few years and all will be ok . russia /china are not great military powers with US tech .

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## Khan Sahab

jupiter2007 said:


> If Biden win the election then there is a possibility, otherwise it will be difficult to acquire any high tech military hardware from USA.


Biden could prove to be much more pro-India than Trump. Trump can swing either way depending upon his mood. Biden being an establishment candidate would tow establishment line.

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## jupiter2007

Khan Sahab said:


> Biden could prove to be much more pro-India than Trump. Trump can swing either way depending upon his mood. Biden being an establishment candidate would tow establishment line.



USA can’t change the tilt in Power toward China. Regardless of Chinese and Russian differences, eventually Russia will align itself with China. USA is using India as it’s barking dog and nothing more then that. American deep state only care about their interest and nothing more and when they are done they leave the dirty toilet paper. India will sooner or later realize that they cannot depend on USA.


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## _NOBODY_

jupiter2007 said:


> If Biden win the election then there is a possibility, otherwise it will be difficult to acquire any high tech military hardware from USA.


Relationship with Biden will be based on his policy in Afghanistan. Plus US has suffered a lot economically from COVID-19 so they must be willing to do significant business with Pakistan military. Let's first see how anti China Biden will be if he wins.


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## DrWatson775

_NOBODY_ said:


> Relationship with Biden will be based on his policy in Afghanistan. Plus US has suffered a lot economically from COVID-19 so they must be willing to do significant business with Pakistan military. Let's first see how anti China Biden will be if he wins.


Historically Democrats have not been as willing as Republicans to sell military hardware to Pakistan. Post COVID, India can give more business opportunities to the US than Pakistan and I think US will go for it. Foreign policy unfortunately is not our forte compared with India.


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## litman

DrWatson775 said:


> Historically Democrats have not been as willing as Republicans to sell military hardware to Pakistan. Post COVID, India can give more business opportunities to the US than Pakistan and I think US will go for it. Foreign policy unfortunately is not our forte compared with India.


post covid there will be a cold war between china and US. it may have already started.pak being a key chinese ally means out of US camp. US withdrawl from afghanistan makes pak of no use to USA but we will be the greatest ally of their biggest enemy and pak has made it clear to US many times that if they have to choose between US and china they will choose china. we wont be having good relations with US after next few years so dont expect any military hardware. on the other hand US will need india against china so everything will be offered to them . pak will be pressured through IMF and face sanctions. the west will try take the bull (china ) by the horns and they will try their best to reduce the influence of china on the globe. the very first thing that will be targeted will be the CPEC. they will expolit pakistani fault lines which unfortuantely we have many and our leaders are for sale. the baluch liberation movement will be funded and will be given enough coverage on the international media. pak can become the next libya but as we are a nuclear state so they may not launch a military operation against pak but funding the separatist movements and creating chaos in pakistan.they will do what they do best . the world has seen their evil acts in ME and in latin america. first they lure you in with carrots, then they pressurize you with debts, then with threats, the next move is to create chaos in the country and put a leader of its choice in power and if all things fail then an all out military action. i think i have gone too far but post covid there will be a cold war between china and the west and pak will be in the centre of this war of elephants. lets hope and pray that covid takes "good care" of US and devastates it thorougly.


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## hassan1



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## Windjammer



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## AMG_12

hassan1 said:


>


PS

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16BM-Fighting-Falcon/1086

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## Trailer23

jupiter2007 said:


> If Biden win the election then there is a possibility...


If Biden wins, we're f#*ked.

When was the last time a Democrat came through for Pakistan?!!

Clinton? Obama? Not sure 'bout Carter.

[Obama really fooled everyone]​
Trump may be a loose-cannon, but i'd worry more if Biden was in Power 'cause he'd think and calculate everything over and over. Plus, he's weak-minded which means that he can bossed 'round.

@Imran Khan bhai, even if we don't take F-16's, we still need to keep them flying and that requires Parts not just for them, but our C-130's and Army Cobras too.

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## TOPGUN

Trailer23 said:


> If Biden wins, we're f#*ked.
> 
> When was the last time a Democrat came through for Pakistan?!!
> 
> Clinton? Obama? Not sure 'bout Carter.
> 
> [Obama really fooled everyone]​
> Trump may be a loose-cannon, but i'd worry more if Biden was in Power 'cause he'd think and calculate everything over and over. Plus, he's weak-minded which means that he can bossed 'round.
> 
> @Imran Khan bhai, even if we don't take F-16's, we still need to keep them flying and that requires Parts not just for them, but our C-130's and Army Cobras too.



Actually, alot of weird / unreal things are happening here in the US you might be surprised Biden might be good for us we have to wait and see no can tell as of right now but i think he will alot better for the US and for Pakistan as well anyone but trump !!

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## ziaulislam

Biden will be establishment ..establishment will be proindian anti pakistan ...

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## PakFactor

TOPGUN said:


> Actually, alot of weird / unreal things are happening here in the US you might be surprised Biden might be good for us we have to wait and see no can tell as of right now but i think he will alot better for the US and for Pakistan as well anyone but trump !!



Trust me I live in US and for Pakistan it’s best Trump wins. At least with this duffar (moron) we know what to expect.

Besides this common sense wise this nations hitting the shitter for decades to come the quality for people to think has gone down.


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## TOPGUN

PakFactor said:


> Trust me I live in US and for Pakistan it’s best Trump wins. At least with this duffar (moron) we know what to expect.
> 
> Besides this common sense wise this nations hitting the shitter for decades to come the quality for people to think has gone down.



Ok my friend if you say so only time shall tell !


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## DrWatson775

Trailer23 said:


> If Biden wins, we're f#*ked.
> 
> When was the last time a Democrat came through for Pakistan?!!
> 
> Clinton? Obama? Not sure 'bout Carter.
> 
> [Obama really fooled everyone]​
> Trump may be a loose-cannon, but i'd worry more if Biden was in Power 'cause he'd think and calculate everything over and over. Plus, he's weak-minded which means that he can bossed 'round.
> 
> @Imran Khan bhai, even if we don't take F-16's, we still need to keep them flying and that requires Parts not just for them, but our C-130's and Army Cobras too.


Hi
Agree that historically Democrats have not been good for us. The first time in history a US president OPENLY sided with India in a conflict with Pakistan was Bill Clinton in the Kargil war.

I remember when he visited India about 20 years ago and our foreign office was scrambling to get him to come to Pakistan as well... in the end he stopped for a few hours and took some pictures.

With the opportunity for increasing trade with India (a country of 1.3 billion) is there then almost no one looks at human rights violations & state sponsored violence in said country.

The way things are, it is very difficult to think about additional F16s let alone up-gradation of existing ones. Other than parts/spares this umbilical cord needs to be cut at some stage and the earlier the better IF other options are available.

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> Biden will be establishment ..establishment will be proindian anti pakistan ...


Trump will Win again


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## PakFactor

TOPGUN said:


> Ok my friend if you say so only time shall tell !



I hope I’m right for the worlds same also, Lol.


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## Talon

Block 52 loaded for a Photo op during 2019 Stand off,can you name the air base?

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## Yasser76

Hodor said:


> Block 52 loaded for a Photo op during 2019 Stand off,can you name the air base?
> 
> View attachment 658072



Nur Khan/Chaklala?


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## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> Block 52 loaded for a Photo op during 2019 Stand off,can you name the air base?
> 
> View attachment 658072


With the shabby camo for the aircraft shelter and the miserable looking trees, I'd guess it to be Sargodha

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## AMRAAM

Hodor said:


> Block 52 loaded for a Photo op during 2019 Stand off,can you name the air base?
> 
> View attachment 658072


Bholari? Just a wild guess.


----------



## PDF

airomerix said:


> View attachment 657306


if people post defence.pk watermark in a good manner not ruining the image and also saving it from being stolen by others, we might just try to post it on social media. Of course, one can also add their PDF username alongside on their content if they want to.

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## Talon

Yasser76 said:


> Nur Khan/Chaklala?





Knuckles said:


> With the shabby camo for the aircraft shelter and the miserable looking trees, I'd guess it to be Sargodha



Risalpur



AMRAAM said:


> Bholari? Just a wild guess.


This is how Bholari looks like

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## AMRAAM

Hodor said:


> Risalpur
> 
> 
> This is how Bholari looks like
> 
> View attachment 658093


That's way too barren.


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## Imran Khan

Trailer23 said:


> If Biden wins, we're f#*ked.
> 
> When was the last time a Democrat came through for Pakistan?!!
> 
> Clinton? Obama? Not sure 'bout Carter.
> 
> [Obama really fooled everyone]​
> Trump may be a loose-cannon, but i'd worry more if Biden was in Power 'cause he'd think and calculate everything over and over. Plus, he's weak-minded which means that he can bossed 'round.
> 
> @Imran Khan bhai, even if we don't take F-16's, we still need to keep them flying and that requires Parts not just for them, but our C-130's and Army Cobras too.


no matter how hard we go with USA they will not stop services for weapons in hands . biden ka baap bhi a jay to unless we dirsct attack on anything US related sir . usa is nto that stupid no matter whom is president .

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## Imran Khan

Hodor said:


> Block 52 loaded for a Photo op during 2019 Stand off,can you name the air base?
> 
> View attachment 658072


 its here simple  now dont ask me location too

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## Tamiyah

Imran Khan said:


> its here simple  now dont ask me location too
> 
> View attachment 658117


Har bande ko apni izzat pyari hai, Sir.

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## Safriz

Never seen Falcons that much armed.
Four AIM-120 on one ship?

Picture originally posted by @DESERT FIGHTER on another thread.

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## SQ8

Safriz said:


> View attachment 658171
> 
> 
> Never seen Falcons that much armed.
> Four AIM-120 on one ship?
> 
> Picture originally posted by @DESERT FIGHTER on another thread.


That is a standard Fighter sweep loadout.

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## Meejee

untitled said:


> At 3:00



Thanks. Appreciated.

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## DrWatson775

Safriz said:


> View attachment 658171
> 
> 
> Never seen Falcons that much armed.
> Four AIM-120 on one ship?
> 
> Picture originally posted by @DESERT FIGHTER on another thread.


Standard AA loadout these days for PAF F16s.


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## airomerix



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## PanzerKiel

airomerix said:


> View attachment 658342


...the Turkish flag at the wing tip...

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## Aamir Hussain

airomerix said:


> View attachment 658342



What is that Turkish Insignia doing on PAF aircraft?

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## PanzerKiel

Aamir Hussain said:


> What is that Turkish Insignia doing on PAF aircraft?


...Two NDU graduates observing the same thing....

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## JamD

PanzerKiel said:


> ...the Turkish flag at the wing tip...





Aamir Hussain said:


> What is that Turkish Insignia doing on PAF aircraft?


Looks like some sort of ACMI pod so this picture might be from excercises with the Turks. Anatolian Eagle?

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## JamD

Test7 said:


> View attachment 560318
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SDT ACMI System is mounted on F-16 and similar airborne platforms in external pod form and provides efficiency in A/A and A/G training of pilots and rehearsals.
> 
> SDT ACMI System has advanced A/A and A/G combat capabilities such as real-time autonomous position generation, weapon simulations and Real-Time Kill Notifications (RTKN) thanks to its long range and high throughput RF data link and integrated processors.
> 
> System has mission planning, live monitoring, and post mission analysis capabilities.
> 
> SDT ACMI System enables fighter pilot training under real flight conditions and in a multi-participant threat and target environment.
> 
> With its high throughput RF data link and modular design it promises a Live-Virtual- Constructive (LVC) training infrastructure.
> 
> *Key Features*
> 
> 
> Long range and high throughput RF data link
> High number of participant support
> Encrypted communications and data recording
> High fidelity weapons and CM/ECM simulations
> Airborne data bus integration (MILSTD- 1553)
> Autonomous TSPI generation
> Real-Time Kill Notifications (RTKN)
> Safety warnings
> Post Mission Interoperability
> 2D/3D mission planning, live monitoring and post mission analysis

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## mingle

PanzerKiel said:


> ...Two NDU graduates observing the same thing....


Could be exercise an old pic??

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## Imran Khan

airomerix said:


> View attachment 658342


*pic from Anatolian eagle *

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## Test7

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-turkish-sdt-acmi-pod.618684/

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## HRK

PanzerKiel said:


> ...the Turkish flag at the wing tip...





Aamir Hussain said:


> What is that Turkish Insignia doing on PAF aircraft?


Turkish ACMI pod ... ???

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## araz

_NOBODY_ said:


> Relationship with Biden will be based on his policy in Afghanistan. Plus US has suffered a lot economically from COVID-19 so they must be willing to do significant business with Pakistan military. Let's first see how anti China Biden will be if he wins.


Biden or anyother En is not going to solve our issues.Pak US relationship has always been a one way street where we have been the subservient nation and US has dictated the policy it follows.As this policy keeps changingas the dynamics of US interests change we need to have a spectrum of constant interests.
A

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## SQ8

Armchair said:


> That's not how the Amreekis narrate it. They claim that the two mirages went behind an F-14, the other F-14 maneuvered behind them, and then the Mirages punched their tanks, and after that the show was called off by both sides.


Everyone has their narratives.

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## SQ8

loanranger said:


> That burns my heart. To hear that from somebody who fought for our country say that. There are serious brain drain problems in Pakistan. Thats All I can say.


Maybe Pakistanis as a collective need to see why good people want to leave - what is the disheartening factor? People like our corrupt politicians aren’t the reason, its those that follow them, those that are openly racist, elitist and so on.. we have examples right here on PDF.

Why we fake every other positive thing and exaggerate it so it makes it unbelievable.

Then maybe the Brain Drain will make sense, not everyone wants to be a martyr without a cause or impact.

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## SQ8

araz said:


> Biden or anyother En is not going to solve our issues.Pak US relationship has always been a one way street where we have been the subservient nation and US has dictated the policy it follows.As this policy keeps changingas the dynamics of US interests change we need to have a spectrum of constant interests.
> A


I think it has to do with unrealistic expectations and a failure to understand the dynamics of US state and government.

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## araz

SQ8 said:


> Maybe Pakistanis as a collective need to see why good people want to leave - what is the disheartening factor? People like our corrupt politicians aren’t the reason, its those that follow them, those that are openly racist, elitist and so on.. we have examples right here on PDF.
> 
> Why we fake every other positive thing and exaggerate it so it makes it unbelievable.
> 
> Then maybe the Brain Drain will make sense, not everyone wants to be a martyr without a cause or impact.


You know Allama this is a very good topic to discuss. It needs an analysis on why it occurs and how to prevent it. 
A

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## Avicenna

PakFactor said:


> Trust me I live in US and for Pakistan it’s best Trump wins. At least with this duffar (moron) we know what to expect.
> 
> Besides this common sense wise this nations hitting the shitter for decades to come the quality for people to think has gone down.



The US and the world can't take another Trump term.

It's surreal what has already happened.

In fact, I would argue Trump has accelerated the US/China conflict perhaps putting Pakistan (and other nations) in a more visible position to force choices.

If there is some political ambiguity in regards to the China/US thing, then Pakistan can still get US hardware as well as Chinese ones.

Once it becomes "You're either with us or with them", those hardware will become impossible or near impossible to obtain from the US forcing Pakistan into an even more China centric relationship and with it dependency.

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## Trailer23



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## Zulfiqar

Trailer23 said:


>



Most of them are actors. The 2nd guy from right is that traitorous PTM supporter Gabeena's husband and both support PPP. These elites play both sides.

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## Armchair

SQ8 said:


> Everyone has their narratives.



Between, still surprised PAF isn't using metallurgical techniques to reduce fatigue on Mirage airframes. You wrote about following F-16 methods but problem with that is that F-16s have heavy carbon and composite usage, while Mirages are mainly aluminum alloy. The techniques for reducing fatigue on alluminum airframes are completely a different kettle of fish.

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## SQ8

Armchair said:


> Between, still surprised PAF isn't using metallurgical techniques to reduce fatigue on Mirage airframes. You wrote about following F-16 methods but problem with that is that F-16s have heavy carbon and composite usage, while Mirages are mainly aluminum alloy. The techniques for reducing fatigue on alluminum airframes are completely a different kettle of fish.


Agreed and not my area of expertise.

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## Chak Bamu

Avicenna said:


> The US and the world can't take another Trump term.
> 
> It's surreal what has already happened.
> 
> In fact, I would argue Trump has accelerated the US/China conflict perhaps putting Pakistan (and other nations) in a more visible position to force choices.
> 
> If there is some political ambiguity in regards to the China/US thing, then Pakistan can still get US hardware as well as Chinese ones.
> 
> Once it becomes "You're either with us or with them", those hardware will become impossible or near impossible to obtain from the US forcing Pakistan into an even more China centric relationship and with it dependency.



Finally a sane post on the OT.

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## ghazi52



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## mingle

Zulfiqar said:


> Most of them are actors. The 2nd guy from right is that traitorous PTM supporter Gabeena's husband and both support PPP. These elites play both sides.


Son in law of pagol late Asad Munir??


----------



## DrWatson775

polanski said:


> Hey guys,
> PAF HQ has two trophies of broken pieces of R-77 missiles fired at F-16 and both failed during "operation Swift Retrot" by PAF. Can someone please post clear photos of these broken pieces of R-77.
> Photo is here.
> https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2019/09/04/russian-missile-dont-work-says-indian-air-force/



These missiles were attached to the Mig-21 which was shot down - still with its fuel tank attached as well. As far as I know the IAF has not made any claim about firing any R-77. Further discussed in another thread.


----------



## Zulfiqar

mingle said:


> Son in law of pagol late Asad Munir??



Yes.

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## The Eagle

polanski said:


> Hey guys,
> PAF HQ has two trophies of broken pieces of R-77 missiles fired at F-16 and both failed during "operation Swift Retrot" by PAF. Can someone please post clear photos of these broken pieces of R-77.
> Photo is here.
> https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2019/09/04/russian-missile-dont-work-says-indian-air-force/



First of all, those were never fired instead found intact but burnt with MiG-21 at crash site. For details and clearer pictures, please visit....

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indi...of-mig-21-bison-payload.609269/#post-11298520

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## Signalian

_NOBODY_ said:


> Is it possible that in future PAF may consider integrating Aselsan AESA radar which is created for TUAF F-16s? If yes then will US allow it?
> @Quwa @araz @Tipu7


PAF can play around with JF-17, not F-16.

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## araz

polanski said:


> Hey guys,
> PAF HQ has two trophies of broken pieces of R-77 missiles fired at F-16 and both failed during "operation Swift Retrot" by PAF. Can someone please post clear photos of these broken pieces of R-77.
> Photo is here.
> https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2019/09/04/russian-missile-dont-work-says-indian-air-force/


You have taken picture from bharat Rat shit forum. That is not from Pakistani fora. I think you are mistaken as spent missiles do not get discovered unless they are lodged in something. The whole news is wrong as No Indian missile was fired.
A

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## mingle

Zulfiqar said:


> Yes.


It's jiyala family and also psycho too

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## The Eagle

Please avoid off-topic posts and derailing thread. 

Regards,

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## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/Lockheed-Martin-F-16D-Fighting-Falcon/2927

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## Windjammer



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## Akh1112

araz said:


> One has to see the cost vs benefits. Cost of AESA would be anywhere between 7.5 to 12 million $ . Multiply that with 75 and you get a huge number. The second question is whether it is absolutely necessary. Apg68V9 is a very good radar for the indoPak arena and we dont have money growing on trees. I think block 52s should have the AESA Plus the new ones plus any block 32/42s which we acquire. That should be good enough. The 52s radar could go into the ocu s acquired from Jordan.
> A
> A





Eh, this is true to an extent, however, the more accurate figure is around $12-20m per aircraft per Block-72 Upgrade. Sure, you gotta look at cost v benefit, however, increasing the potency of the aircraft in itself could potentially reduce cost in the sense of not losing a $60m asset. Yes, its an expensive upgrade, however, is it worth it? One could argue yes. Its a cost effective counter to the Rafale, especially since some industry experts question the potency of the Meteor and liken it to the 120D

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## RAMPAGE

_NOBODY_ said:


> Is it possible that in future PAF may consider integrating Aselsan AESA radar which is created for TUAF F-16s? If yes then will US allow it?
> @Quwa @araz @Tipu7


Why not simply get the American upgrade?

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## nomi007

RAMPAGE said:


> Why not simply get the American upgrade?


No money.


----------



## araz

Akh1112 said:


> Eh, this is true to an extent, however, the more accurate figure is around $12-20m per aircraft per Block-72 Upgrade. Sure, you gotta look at cost v benefit, however, increasing the potency of the aircraft in itself could potentially reduce cost in the sense of not losing a $60m asset. Yes, its an expensive upgrade, however, is it worth it? One could argue yes. Its a cost effective counter to the Rafale, especially since some industry experts question the potency of the Meteor and liken it to the 120D


Thank you. Are you quoting 12 to 20 million just for AESA radar or the whole V upgrade? Please advise

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Akh1112 said:


> Eh, this is true to an extent, however, the more accurate figure is around $12-20m per aircraft per Block-72 Upgrade. Sure, you gotta look at cost v benefit, however, increasing the potency of the aircraft in itself could potentially reduce cost in the sense of not losing a $60m asset. Yes, its an expensive upgrade, however, is it worth it? One could argue yes. Its a cost effective counter to the Rafale, especially since some industry experts question the potency of the Meteor and liken it to the 120D


IIRC the cost (quoted publicly) of upgrading F-16s to F-16V is around $35 m per aircraft. It's definitely on the high-side, but the outcome is a solid 4.5-gen fighter. For the PAF, the biggest constraint is the age of its A/B. I'm not too sure if they'd last long enough to justify the upgrade. There's no known SLEP for A/Bs past FALCON UP/STAR.

If we had the funding, I'd rather we take a different approach than upgrading all of our old F-16s.

Basically, upgrade the 18 Block-52+ to F-16V -- i.e., $630 m US.

Add 36 new-build Block-72 -- i.e., $4.5 b US.

You will now have 54 solid 4.5-gen fighters for around half the price India agreed to pay for 36 Rafale.

Next up, work on a fleet-wide AESA radar upgrade for the Block-I, Block-II and JF-17B. Certainly, I think adding an AESA radar (LKF601E or KLJ-7A) should be doable on the Block-II and JF-17B, at least. Finally, I'd add another 62 JF-17 Block-III (or Block-IV) so that we can total around 200 JF-17s equipped with AESA radars.

We can have 254 fighters equipped with AESA radars, which is an ample force for deterring India. However, we will also have 57-odd MLU/ADFs and 50 Block-Is with BVR and TDL as an auxiliary, plus dozens of Mirages for strike. But I'd offload some of the strike load (via Ra'ad 2, Raptor III, etc) to the JF-17s.

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## The Raven

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IIRC the cost (quoted publicly) of upgrading F-16s to F-16V is around $35 m per aircraft. It's definitely on the high-side, but the outcome is a solid 4.5-gen fighter. For the PAF, the biggest constraint is the age of its A/B. I'm not too sure if they'd last long enough to justify the upgrade. There's no known SLEP for A/Bs past FALCON UP/STAR.
> 
> If we had the funding, I'd rather we take a different approach than upgrading all of our old F-16s.
> 
> Basically, upgrade the 18 Block-52+ to F-16V -- i.e., $630 m US.
> 
> Add 36 new-build Block-72 -- i.e., $4.5 b US.
> 
> You will now have 54 solid 4.5-gen fighters for around half the price India agreed to pay for 36 Rafale.
> 
> Next up, work on a fleet-wide AESA radar upgrade for the Block-I, Block-II and JF-17B. Certainly, I think adding an AESA radar (LKF601E or KLJ-7A) should be doable on the Block-II and JF-17B, at least. Finally, I'd add another 62 JF-17 Block-III (or Block-IV) so that we can total around 200 JF-17s equipped with AESA radars.
> 
> We can have 254 fighters equipped with AESA radars, which is an ample force for deterring India. However, we will also have 57-odd MLU/ADFs and 50 Block-Is with BVR and TDL as an auxiliary, plus dozens of Mirages for strike. But I'd offload some of the strike load (via Ra'ad 2, Raptor III, etc) to the JF-17s.



Block I should be capable of an AESA given that PT-04 has been used as a test bed for the AESA. The Service Life Extension Programme could keep our early block Vipers going for some time if the US programme is anything to go by.

https://www.afmc.af.mil/News/Articl...-a-great-deal-for-department-of-defense-taxp/

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The Raven said:


> Block I should be capable of an AESA given that PT-04 has been used as a test bed for the AESA. The Service Life Extension Programme could keep our early block Vipers going for some time if the US programme is anything to go by.
> 
> https://www.afmc.af.mil/News/Articl...-a-great-deal-for-department-of-defense-taxp/


The USAF SLEP is for C/Ds.

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## Mamajama

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The USAF SLEP is for C/Ds.


Isnt the APG-83 worse than the APG-80?


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## The Raven

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The USAF SLEP is for C/Ds.



I've always assumed that as well, and the current USAF plan is for C/D models, but there is/was a SLEP for early block A/B models. Although I'm not sure whether this is still viable.

In view of the challenges inherent in operating F-16s to 8,000 flight hours, together with the moderate risk involved in JSF integration, the Department established a program to earmark by FY 2000 some 200 older, Block 15 F-16 fighter aircraft in inactive storage for potential reactivation.

Even relatively "young" aircraft like the F-16 (average age 9 years in 1998) are affected by age: skin corrosion, bulkhead cracks and landing gear wear are common. The F-16 Service Life Extension Program (SLEP) extends the F-16A/B service life to 8,000 hours at a cost of $703K per aircraft in Fiscal Year 98.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-16-life.htm

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## Blacklight

The Raven said:


> *but there is/was a SLEP for early block A/B models. *Although I'm not sure whether this is still viable.


Falcon UP and the Falcon STAR programs. Still available.

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## StormBreaker

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The USAF SLEP is for C/Ds.


I remember reading some months ago on some credible site that there is another SLEP+ for some filtered “Already SLEP’ed” models.


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## Blacklight

Mamajama said:


> Isnt the APG-83 worse than the APG-80?


Air cooled Vs Liquid cooled, Liquid cooling will always win

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2006-12-06/fighters-set-apart-aesa-radars

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## untitled

Blacklight said:


> Air cooled Vs Liquid cooled, Liquid cooling will always win
> 
> https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2006-12-06/fighters-set-apart-aesa-radars


Aren't both APG83 and APG80 liquid cooled?

For some reason APG80 so far has only been installed on Block 60 F16s

The American Air Force has also opted for the APG83 for its B1 Lancers


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## Blacklight

untitled said:


> Aren't both APG83 and APG80 liquid cooled?
> 
> For some reason APG80 so far has only been installed on Block 60 F16s
> 
> The American Air Force has also opted for the APG83 for its B1 Lancers


APG-83 is air cooled. 

Installation of APG-80 would require extensive work, in order to accommodate its liquid cooling system.

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## untitled

Blacklight said:


> APG-83 is air cooled


But this video says its liquid cooled at 1:40
Have they changed the cooling system?

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## airomerix

MLU's, ADF's and Block 52's.

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## The Raven

Blacklight said:


> Falcon UP and the Falcon STAR programs. Still available.



If I remember correctly, PAF A/B Vipers underwent the Falcon UP programme in the 1990s to achieve around 6,000 hours airframe life, as this could be done at depot level, but they have not received any SLEP which requires MRO, and it's unclear if they had any SLEP as part of the MLU in Turkey, which would bring their airframe life to 8,000 hours. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) would you have any further insight?

EDIT: It seems some of our A/B models have already undegone Falcon UP/STAR structural upgrades, so they should now have a service life of around 8,000 hours. The DSCA notification from 2006 was for 14 structural kits, which I assume was for the 14 embargoed/released aircraft. I think the Jordanian MLU Vipers had already undergone UP/STAR.

http://web.archive.org/web/20130516...il/PressReleases/36-b/2006/Pakistan_06-11.pdf

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## Talon



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## Enigma SIG

airomerix said:


> MLU's, ADF's and Block 52's.
> 
> View attachment 660159
> 
> 
> View attachment 660160
> View attachment 660161
> View attachment 660162
> View attachment 660163
> View attachment 660164
> View attachment 660165



10902 / 10903 fresh paint


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## The Eagle

untitled said:


> For some reason APG80 so far has only been installed on Block 60 F16s



Block-60 tech is only for UAE and they have rights to all the tech especially for Block-60 having said that it was UAE that paid for all the R&D .....

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## Yasser76

The Eagle said:


> Block-60 tech is only for UAE and they have rights to all the tech especially for Block-60 having said that it was UAE that paid for all the R&D .....



Yeah, but were made fools out of. LMTAS just went around and offered an AESA F-16V, which custimers are lapping up and literally no one else is touching the Block 60

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## The Eagle

Yasser76 said:


> Yeah, but were made fools out of. LMTAS just went around and offered an AESA F-16V, which custimers are lapping up and literally no one else is touching the Block 60



That could be another factor however, Block-60 is purely sponsored for UAE that incorporates a lot of gadgets including Radar and all. However, I would call it a best one around.

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## Yasser76

The Eagle said:


> That could be another factor however, Block-60 is purely sponsored for UAE that incorporates a lot of gadgets including Radar and all. However, I would call it a best one around.



Yes, it is very much the gold plated version of the Viper, bells and whistles, but good reason customers left it and chose the V. For all that R&D UAE funded their own Viper but got no royalties from international sales.


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## Akh1112

araz said:


> Thank you. Are you quoting 12 to 20 million just for AESA radar or the whole V upgrade? Please advise


whole upgrade, according to Bilal however my figures are a little off.

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## WiderMan

Yasser76 said:


> Yeah, but were made fools out of. LMTAS just went around and offered an AESA F-16V, which custimers are lapping up and literally no one else is touching the Block 60




You do realize that the Block 60 was never intended to be sold to anyone other than the UAE, and is far more capable than the F-16V - which is essentially a Block 50/52 with upgraded bits and pieces.

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## Raider 21

Yasser76 said:


> Yes, it is very much the gold plated version of the Viper, bells and whistles, but good reason customers left it and chose the V. For all that R&D UAE funded their own Viper but got no royalties from international sales.


Those royalties would only work if the Block 60 or a variant of that was to be purchased, for which India was very close to considering at one point. They evaluated Block 60s.


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## MastanKhan

Yasser76 said:


> Yes, it is very much the gold plated version of the Viper, bells and whistles, but good reason customers left it and chose the V. For all that R&D UAE funded their own Viper but got no royalties from international sales.



Hi,

And neither did the Paf get any royalties from the laser guided weapons it designed in the early 80's with the help of the US.

There is no one here on the forum who even knows about it or has heard about it---.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> And neither did the Paf get any royalties from the laser guided weapons it designed in the early 80's with the help of the US.
> 
> *There is no one here on the forum who even knows about it or has heard about it---*.


Kinda seems like even you may not know about it.....

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## MastanKhan

Raider 21 said:


> Kinda seems like even you may not know about it.....



Hi,

I sat across the room in front of the Paf sqdrn ldr in ogden utah at his rented house in 1984. He was based at Hill afb incharge of supplies for the Paf---.

Old flyers would know him from his F6 accident---he parachuted---broke his neck and was the first ever survivor of Paf with a broken neck from ejection from an F6 over Shorkot area.

Off course I don't know about it but only only remember that a certain minimum number of bombs had to be sold per sale for pakistan to get the royalties---.

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## untitled

MastanKhan said:


> And neither did the Paf get any royalties from the laser guided weapons it de


Paveway kits?


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## Nomad40

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I sat across the room in front of the Paf sqdrn ldr in ogden utah at his rented house in 1984. He was based at Hill afb incharge of supplies for the Paf---.
> 
> Old flyers would know him from his F6 accident---he parachuted---broke his neck and was the first ever survivor of Paf with a broken neck from ejection from an F6 over Shorkot area.
> 
> Off course I don't know about it but only only remember that a certain minimum number of bombs had to be sold per sale for pakistan to get the royalties---.


look's like PAF and USA have a complicated relationship.

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## WiderMan

ADF dudes

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## Windjammer

*Wing Commander Nauman Akram (Shaheed)*

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## Readerdefence

Hi blk60 f16 for UAE have some Israeli updates also in their vipers that’s why only been or will be for UAE until Israeli have a say in that BLK60 is off limit for other airforce of any other country 
we will soon see openly how very up to date technology flourishing in UAE airforce & armed forces like recently MARS mission to space 
Thank you

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## Yasser76

If Pakistan purchased these we can kill three birds with one stone here. Turkey happy, Pakistan happy, US happy, Saudi happy.

"But since then, U.S. officials have grown concerned that the Iraqis are not making use of the sophisticated technology. Mulroy said during his time at the Pentagon there were discussions about potentially selling the F-16s secondhand to another party. "

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/01/30/f16-jets-us-concerned-iran-backed-militias-iraq-threat/

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## Signalian

A long time back, I remember reading somewhere that AIM-120 C6 was being introduced to fusing changes to "improve" its ability to kill cruise missiles. This was somewhere in 2004. Trying to dig up that source.

This could mean that possibly AIM-120-C7 could have the ability to kill CMs.

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## Armchair

Signalian said:


> A long time back, I remember reading somewhere that AIM-120 C6 was being introduced to fusing changes to "improve" its ability to kill cruise missiles. This was somewhere in 2004. Trying to dig up that source.
> 
> This could mean that possibly AIM-120-C7 could have the ability to kill CMs.



CMs are trackable and killable even with a gun, a sidewinder and an AMRAAM. However, there is a pk factor of detecting and catching them in time.


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## Trailer23

Here are some unseen images - courtesy of the new song: _*Mera Junoon*_

*No. 19 Squadron (Sherdils)*







*No. 11 Squadron (Arrows) - 82604*





*No. 11 Squadron (Arrows) - 82604*





*No. 11 Squadron (Arrows) - 85610*










*No. 9 Squadron (Griffins)*







@Hodor @Windjammer @Raider 21 @airomerix

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## Clairvoyant

Trailer23 said:


> Here are some unseen images - courtesy of the new song: _*Mera Junoon*_
> 
> *No. 19 Squadron (Sherdils)*
> View attachment 661144
> 
> 
> 
> *No. 11 Squadron (Arrows) - 82604*
> View attachment 661145
> 
> 
> *No. 11 Squadron (Arrows) - 82604*
> View attachment 661146
> 
> 
> *No. 11 Squadron (Arrows) - 85610*
> View attachment 661147
> 
> View attachment 661150
> 
> 
> 
> *No. 9 Squadron (Griffins)*
> View attachment 661149
> 
> 
> View attachment 661148​@Hodor @Windjammer @Raider 21 @airomerix



First one is a screen grab from ISAC 2019 video.

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## Trailer23

Clairvoyant said:


> First one is a screen grab from ISAC 2019 video.


Must've missed that earlier.

Even the Arrows footage is pretty old as it has the old livery, but never used in any promotional video in the past.


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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> Here are some unseen images - courtesy of the new song: _*Mera Junoon*_
> 
> *No. 19 Squadron (Sherdils)*
> View attachment 661144
> 
> 
> 
> *No. 11 Squadron (Arrows) - 82604*
> View attachment 661145
> 
> 
> *No. 11 Squadron (Arrows) - 82604*
> View attachment 661146
> 
> 
> *No. 11 Squadron (Arrows) - 85610*
> View attachment 661147
> 
> View attachment 661150
> 
> 
> 
> *No. 9 Squadron (Griffins)*
> View attachment 661149
> 
> 
> View attachment 661148​@Hodor @Windjammer @Raider 21 @airomerix


Thanks for the screenshots. Glad to see these rather than listen to the songs, they are becoming boring.

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## Clairvoyant

Raider 21 said:


> Thanks for the screenshots. Glad to see these rather than listen to the songs, they are becoming boring.



I watched it on mute,they seriously need to stop making new songs and should just concentrate on releasing new footage without music.

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## Talon

2 ship line up,ready for takeoff.. notice the centre line of both aircrafts

Photo source Instagram

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## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> 2 ship line up,ready for takeoff.. notice the centre line of both aircrafts
> 
> Photo source Instagram
> 
> View attachment 661161


That photographer has a great page filled with excellent shots.


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## Raider 21

Clairvoyant said:


> I watched it on mute,they seriously need to stop making new songs and should just concentrate on releasing new footage without music.


B-roll footage or make documentaries without music at least.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> If Pakistan purchased these we can kill three birds with one stone here. Turkey happy, Pakistan happy, US happy, Saudi happy.
> 
> "But since then, U.S. officials have grown concerned that the Iraqis are not making use of the sophisticated technology. Mulroy said during his time at the Pentagon there were discussions about potentially selling the F-16s secondhand to another party. "
> 
> https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/01/30/f16-jets-us-concerned-iran-backed-militias-iraq-threat/


I second this idea. I don't think anything would please the PAF more than accessing -- and then upgrading -- the Iraqi birds. The PAF can get to its original Block-50/52 ASR of 50-55 aircraft. 

We might need to grease the wheels a bit by offering to buy 1 or 2 squadrons of new-built Block-72s, but IMHO, the PAF will oblige as it would cost less vs. an entirely new aircraft.

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I second this idea. I don't think anything would please the PAF more than accessing -- and then upgrading -- the Iraqi birds. The PAF can get to its original Block-50/52 ASR of 50-55 aircraft.
> 
> We might need to grease the wheels a bit by offering to buy 1 or 2 squadrons of new-built Block-72s, but IMHO, the PAF will oblige as it would cost less vs. an entirely new aircraft.


Not sure but new blk 70 sold by DOD to Morocco and Taiwan total 90 jetts they called first trench from 62 billion line of credit 4.9 billion 66 blk 70 to Taiwan and 24 to Morocco used ones not worth it when you have upgraded them as well its 2.5 billion for 45 new jets or 800 million to one Sqd 18 jetts PAF should go new one when US airforce saying they will produce 400 jetts with 62 billions line of credit new jetts are cheap than these used Iraqi ones

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## Ali_Baba

Interesting idea, but the politics are quite insurmountable for Pakistan for anything that has the words "F16s" ...

How much of an upgrade would they need to be bought up to PAF standard? They do have the same radar as PAF Block 52, so that is good.

Poor Iraqi AF was only allowed Sparrows..

https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/iraq-f-16-aircraft


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## mingle




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## mingle




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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Ali_Baba said:


> Interesting idea, but the politics are quite insurmountable for Pakistan for anything that has the words "F16s" ...
> 
> How much of an upgrade would they need to be bought up to PAF standard? They do have the same radar as PAF Block 52, so that is good.
> 
> Poor Iraqi AF was only allowed Sparrows..
> 
> https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/iraq-f-16-aircraft


IIRC the IqAF F-16s are near-identical to the PAF's Block-52+. However, it wouldn't matter much as the PAF would look to upgrade these (and its own) birds to the F-16V-standard.

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## Yasser76

Ali_Baba said:


> Interesting idea, but the politics are quite insurmountable for Pakistan for anything that has the words "F16s" ...
> 
> How much of an upgrade would they need to be bought up to PAF standard? They do have the same radar as PAF Block 52, so that is good.
> 
> Poor Iraqi AF was only allowed Sparrows..
> 
> https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/iraq-f-16-aircraft





Ali_Baba said:


> Interesting idea, but the politics are quite insurmountable for Pakistan for anything that has the words "F16s" ...
> 
> How much of an upgrade would they need to be bought up to PAF standard? They do have the same radar as PAF Block 52, so that is good.
> 
> Poor Iraqi AF was only allowed Sparrows..
> 
> https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/iraq-f-16-aircraft



F-16s are similar standard, may need small software changes to fire AMRAAM.

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## Yasser76

New Tawain/Morrocco order is good news for PAF as keeps options open for PAF for F-16V upgrade for longer period. Lockheed now have a 140 aircraft backlog which means F-16s will be being produced for another 3 years now. Gives us time to place an additional small order and upgrade current Vipers. Probably very possible under a Biden administration

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## mingle

Yasser76 said:


> New Tawain/Morrocco order is good news for PAF as keeps options open for PAF for F-16V upgrade for longer period. Lockheed now have a 140 aircraft backlog which means F-16s will be being produced for another 3 years now. Gives us time to place an additional small order and upgrade current Vipers. Probably very possible under a Biden administration


Both administrations no matter who wins we are ok. What you think the buying cost and upgradtion of Iraqi blk 52 along our blk 52s??? yes only benefit is time I agree on that


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## Vapour

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) 

From what I interpret, the issue with procurement of US military hardware, be it F-16s or Vipers, is the withholding of CSF and Pakistan Army's unwillingness to purchase any hardware at full prices because of the US' track record of supplying to Pakistan?

Even today, should Pakistan have the funds and the military and political directive to procure F-16s, the US establishment, Pentagon and Congress would likely approve of a sale due to two reasons. The economic benefits of doing business in a post COVID-19 world as well as the dependence from Pakistan that the capability provides is also invaluable, especially in such an increasingly black and white, geopolitical environment (Pak being firmly entrenched in the China camp).

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## mingle

Vapour said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> From what I interpret, the issue with procurement of US military hardware, be it F-16s or Vipers, is the withholding of CSF and Pakistan Army's unwillingness to purchase any hardware at full prices because of the US' track record of supplying to Pakistan?
> 
> Even today, should Pakistan have the funds and the military and political directive to procure F-16s, the US establishment, Pentagon and Congress would likely approve of a sale due to two reasons. The economic benefits of doing business in a post COVID-19 world as well as the dependence from Pakistan that the capability provides is also invaluable, especially in such an increasingly black and white, geopolitical environment (Pak being firmly entrenched in the China camp).


If I am desion maker I will invite LM to open a line at Kamra with 5 - 7billions for 100+ jets is a big number also ask them to upgrade our current fleet including future upgardations we can achieve max what india failed in 10 billions bring LM at home

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## Raider 21

mingle said:


> If I am desion maker I will invite LM to open a line at Kamra with 5 - 7billions for 100+ jets is a big number also ask them to upgrade our current fleet including future upgardations we can achieve max what india failed in 10 billions bring LM at home


This was discussed and offered at one point by GD or Northrop in the 1980s....

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## mingle

Raider 21 said:


> This was discussed and offered at one point by GD or Northrop in the 1980s....


Yeh you right Sir but these Blk70 are realy cheap with 5 billions US selling 90 copies PAF should look at it establish a separate line by LM at Pak and assemble local will be even more cheap with local fleet upgrades I am surprised to be Honest but hey its a standard Package like police cruisers it's a goodtime for PAF after COVID I hope they will take advantage of it.

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## Raider 21

mingle said:


> Yeh you right Sir but these Blk70 are realy cheap with 5 billions US selling 90 copies PAF should look at it establish a separate line by LM at Pak and assemble local will be even more cheap with local fleet upgrades I am surprised to be Honest but hey its a standard Package like police cruisers it's a goodtime for PAF after COVID I hope they will take advantage of it.


In a place like Pakistan, it won't come without major corruption. Hence the hesitancy. But they have to be told from someone else rather than what's beneficial for them most of the time in front of their eyes when it comes to options. Personally I'd love to see an LM plant within PAC where Vipers would be built, upgraded and modified. Plus LM is so big, joint projects would also be possible such as modifying the airframe design or flight control system for the JF-17B as an example.

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## mingle

Raider 21 said:


> In a place like Pakistan, it won't come without major corruption. Hence the hesitancy. But they have to be told from someone else rather than what's beneficial for them most of the time in front of their eyes when it comes to options. Personally I'd love to see an LM plant within PAC where Vipers would be built, upgraded and modified. Plus LM is so big, joint projects would also be possible such as modifying the airframe design or flight control system for the JF-17B as an example.


Pak is lucky after COVID such chance will never come again 5-8 billions is not a huge amount you are right there can be LM input on our JF-17 project how we can do even better. I believe let the Americans come Pak should be a meeting point between US and China not a party in theior trade tussle


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## Armchair

Raider 21 said:


> In a place like Pakistan, it won't come without major corruption. Hence the hesitancy. But they have to be told from someone else rather than what's beneficial for them most of the time in front of their eyes when it comes to options. Personally I'd love to see an LM plant within PAC where Vipers would be built, upgraded and modified. Plus LM is so big, joint projects would also be possible such as modifying the airframe design or flight control system for the JF-17B as an example.



Trump is more interested in shoring up Boeing which is floundering in the fighter business. The Red Hawk could also be an option other than the F-16, and would essentially be a light fighter in a single seat configuration. It would have the lowest life cycle and operational cost of any fighter in the world.

It would complement F-16s perfectly.


----------



## Raider 21

Armchair said:


> Trump is more interested in shoring up Boeing which is floundering in the fighter business. The Red Hawk could also be an option other than the F-16, and would essentially be a light fighter in a single seat configuration. It would have the lowest life cycle and operational cost of any fighter in the world.
> 
> It would complement F-16s perfectly.


T-50A would complement it better with F-16s....

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## Signalian

Vapour said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
> 
> From what I interpret, the issue with procurement of US military hardware, be it F-16s or Vipers, is the withholding of CSF and Pakistan Army's unwillingness to purchase any hardware at full prices because of the US' track record of supplying to Pakistan?
> 
> Even today, should Pakistan have the funds and the military and political directive to procure F-16s, the US establishment, Pentagon and Congress would likely approve of a sale due to two reasons. The economic benefits of doing business in a post COVID-19 world as well as the dependence from Pakistan that the capability provides is also invaluable, especially in such an increasingly black and white, geopolitical environment (Pak being firmly entrenched in the China camp).


Should funds stop second hand F-16 A/B or C/D from USA ? I think there is more to it than just funds. Most of the A/B from boneyard would need MLU so help with jobs in LM.


----------



## Armchair

Raider 21 said:


> T-50A would complement it better with F-16s....



T-50A is technologically not on par with it - Red Hawk brings something completely new to the table - new manufacturing tech. Also, T-50 won't help US industry much. You have to think from the US perspective, from their perspective, T-129 or T-50 is just creating competition for their own jets.

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## Scorpiooo

Beauty and beast

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## Raider 21

Armchair said:


> T-50A is technologically not on par with it - Red Hawk brings something completely new to the table - new manufacturing tech. Also, T-50 won't help US industry much. You have to think from the US perspective, from their perspective, T-129 or T-50 is just creating competition for their own jets.


It will not only help Lockheed Martin, but Korea Aerospace Industries as well. Plus commonality with F-16s is very much guaranteed as per from what I've heard. I know someone personally who has evaluated the T-50, his background from Vipers. 

Still the Red Hawk is a great design as well.


----------



## Scorpiooo

In perhaps the single biggest order for F-16 jets, Lockheed Martin has been awarded a $62 billion ten-year, fixed price contract from the US Air Force for production of F-16 aircraft for multiple Foreign Military Sale (FMS) customers.

The initial delivery order is for 90 aircraft, including both the pre-priced recurring core configuration costs at $2,862,797,674 and the engineering change proposal/undefinitized contract action for the non-recurring costs not-to-exceed $2,078,307,572 obligated at approximately $1,018,370,710.

The total value for the initial delivery order is $4,941,105,246 and will be awarded on the same date.

Work will be primarily performed in Greenville, South Carolina; and Fort Worth, Texas, and is expected to be completed Dec. 31, 2026. This contract involves 100% FMS to FMS partner nations and is the result of a sole-source acquisition. FMS funds in the amount of $3,881,168,384 are being obligated at the time of award. Air Force Life Cycle Management Center is the contracting activity, according to a US DoD release.

The official Pentagon announcement did not name the FMS countries but the contract probably includes 66 jets for Taiwan which inked a $8 billion deal with the US government in 2019.

In addition, the US concluded deals with Bulgaria for 8 weaponised F-16s for 1.16 billion. Other customers for which F-16 deals have been concluded include 14 jets for Slovaika. All this adds up to 89 jets.


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## Yasser76

mingle said:


> Both administrations no matter who wins we are ok. What you think the buying cost and upgradtion of Iraqi blk 52 along our blk 52s??? yes only benefit is time I agree on that



Unsure, these Viper pretty useless to Iraq, could be we offer 36 JF-17s to them with full logistics support in return. That way they still get to have fighters but not worry about lack of support and training.

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## Raider 21

Yasser76 said:


> Unsure, these Viper pretty useless to Iraq, could be we offer 36 JF-17s to them with full logistics support in return. That way they still get to have fighters but not worry about lack of support and training.


Not quite. They are flying them regularly and actually have their own IPs. Their maintenance will take a while. The JF-17s will not be as effective as their F-16s.

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## Yasser76

Raider 21 said:


> Not quite. They are flying them regularly and actually have their own IPs. Their maintenance will take a while. The JF-17s will not be as effective as their F-16s.



That is not what the news report says at all.


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## Irfan Baloch

Raider 21 said:


> It will not only help Lockheed Martin, but Korea Aerospace Industries as well. Plus commonality with F-16s is very much guaranteed as per from what I've heard. I know someone personally who has evaluated the T-50, his background from Vipers.
> 
> Still the Red Hawk is a great design as well.


T50 and Red hawk in light fighter niche were good if we didn't have JF17. 
JF17s compliment the F16s

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## Raider 21

Yasser76 said:


> That is not what the news report says at all.


Marketed sensationalism. Plus they are eyeing more Vipers.

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## Yasser76

Raider 21 said:


> Marketed sensationalism. Plus they are eyeing more Vipers.



So the withdrawl of all contractor support is sensationilsm and you know better?


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## Vapour

mingle said:


> If I am desion maker I will invite LM to open a line at Kamra with 5 - 7billions for 100+ jets is a big number also ask them to upgrade our current fleet including future upgardations we can achieve max what india failed in 10 billions bring LM at home



Would be amazing to see it happen but think Indian and US geopolitical viewpoints are too aligned currently, for this to work.

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## Vapour

Signalian said:


> Should funds stop second hand F-16 A/B or C/D from USA ? I think there is more to it than just funds. Most of the A/B from boneyard would need MLU so help with jobs in LM.



Good point but can they be purchased as a stand-alone procurement or alongside buying new F-16 Vs? There has been very little official news on new/used F-16 plans from the PAF.

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## Raider 21

Yasser76 said:


> So the withdrawl of all contractor support is sensationilsm and you know better?


Yasser look up in the previous post, their IPs are no longer contracted personnel. From a maintenance perspective it'll be tough for them as they depended on contracted personnel. Yet they have been flying missions according to an IP over there.

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## TheTallGuy

Honestly People,
Let it Go! Train has left..no more F-16s. PAF had much better option/Game changing options available just like in 1981. 

75 remain and will be retired as time goes on!

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## The Accountant

Agreed but the next fighter induction should be 5 or 5.5 generation which is atleast a 8 to 10 years away. We need a stop gap solution to keep the numbers optimum to face rafael, mig 29 mki and mirrage 2000 threat. The easiest and cheapest solution is upgradation of f16s and 2 more squadrons.




TheTallGuy said:


> Honestly People,
> Let it Go! Train has left..no more F-16s. PAF had much better option/Game changing options available just like in 1981.
> 
> 75 remain and will be retired as time goes on!

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## ghazi52

August 10, 1978

F-16 Fighting Falcon became first single-seat fighter to achieve accurate, unassisted delivery of laser-guided weapons.

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## mingle

TheTallGuy said:


> Honestly People,
> Let it Go! Train has left..no more F-16s. PAF had much better option/Game changing options available just like in 1981.
> 
> 75 remain and will be retired as time goes on!


Tall Guy what are option PAF has other than vipers??


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## araz

mingle said:


> Tall Guy what are option PAF has other than vipers??


Block 3 followed by Azm. If a carrot is dangled then 16s post 2025 situation will be reevaluated depending on the success of the block 3 and progress of Azm
I asked Madam Messiach whether there was any chance of an intermediate buy and she said no. The KT said No and amother AVM said No. So it seems likely that tilp 2025 nothing is go8ng to come other than block3 and possibly 16s.
A

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## PakFactor

araz said:


> Block 3 followed by Azm. If a carrot is dangled then 16s post 2025 situation will be reevaluated depending on the success of the block 3 and progress of Azm
> I asked Madam Messiach whether there was any chance of an intermediate buy and she said no. The KT said No and amother AVM said No. So it seems likely that tilp 2025 nothing is go8ng to come other than block3 and possibly 16s.
> A



Where is the Madam these days she's MIA for months.


----------



## Scorpiooo



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## TheTallGuy

PakFactor said:


> Where is the Madam these days she's MIA for months.



she went MIA since Block 3 "prototype" flew at chengdu! probably knew too much hence away from open forum.

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## TheTallGuy

mingle said:


> Tall Guy what are option PAF has other than vipers??



brand new 5th Gen a squadron worth.

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## The Accountant

araz said:


> Block 3 followed by Azm. If a carrot is dangled then 16s post 2025 situation will be reevaluated depending on the success of the block 3 and progress of Azm
> I asked Madam Messiach whether there was any chance of an intermediate buy and she said no. The KT said No and amother AVM said No. So it seems likely that tilp 2025 nothing is go8ng to come other than block3 and possibly 16s.
> A




Thats the only logical and effecient way forward. PL15 and upgradation of f16s with AIM 120D should be the stop gap to counter anything India could throw at us.

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## PakFactor

The Accountant said:


> Thats the only logical and effecient way forward. PL15 and upgradation of f16s with AIM 120D should be the stop gap to counter anything India could throw at us.



Would be possible to have PL-15 as a Ground to Air Missile System similar to how on Humvee they have the AIMs.


----------



## The Accountant

PakFactor said:


> Would be possible to have PL-15 as a Ground to Air Missile System similar to how on Humvee they have the AIMs.


Theoratically possible yes. Practically not effecient and effective. These long range BVR have dual pulse rocket motors. The motor starts for a while then stopped and missile have to glide and then it starts for the second time at terminal stage. 

In ground to air mode gliding will be difficult hence effeciency and effectiveness of missile will by much lower

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## Yasser76

Raider 21 said:


> Yasser look up in the previous post, their IPs are no longer contracted personnel. From a maintenance perspective it'll be tough for them as they depended on contracted personnel. Yet they have been flying missions according to an IP over there.



They have been flying drastically reduced missions, it's also a big question mark if how they conduct deep maintenence without LM support. The security angke is also there in terms of Iran getting it's hands oh the tech

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## araz

The Accountant said:


> Thats the only logical and effecient way forward. PL15 and upgradation of f16s with AIM 120D should be the stop gap to counter anything India could throw at us.


PL15 is a sure shot 120D and 9X very unlikely unless newer fighters(read F16) are procured.
A

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## Talon

araz said:


> Block 3 followed by Azm. If a carrot is dangled then 16s post 2025 situation will be reevaluated depending on the success of the block 3 and progress of Azm
> I asked Madam Messiach whether there was any chance of an intermediate buy and she said no. The KT said No and amother AVM said No. So it seems likely that tilp 2025 nothing is go8ng to come other than block3 and possibly 16s.
> A


But but...but we just inducted invisible J DASH aircrafts at Masroor.Please dont shatter dreams of Fan Boys and credibility of brats..

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## araz

Hodor said:


> But but...but we just inducted invisible J DASH aircrafts at Masroor.Please dont shatter dreams of Fan Boys and credibility of brats..


Bhai.
At my age there aren't too many dreams left to occupy the night or day. This acquisition had never made any sense from the financial/strategic point of view but people have been so convinced one just holds back to see whether he is wrong. Khair! As always alhamdolillah I sleep well. The world on the other hand steps closer and closer to chaos.

A

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## Talon

araz said:


> This acquisition had never made any sense from the financial/strategic point of view but people have been so convinced one just holds back to see whether he is wrong.
> A


And I was just enjoying the circus and comparison of nav lights

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## The Eagle

TheTallGuy said:


> she went MIA since Block 3 "prototype" flew at chengdu! probably knew too much hence away from open forum.



Official commitments.

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## m52k85

The Eagle said:


> Official commitments.


official commitments to keep quiet? Or out of retirement?

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## The Eagle

m52k85 said:


> official commitments to keep quiet? Or out of retirement?



No for the both. Now you can make more wild guesses.


----------



## air marshal

https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16BM-Fighting-Falcon/1692

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## Nomad40

TheTallGuy said:


> brand new 5th Gen a squadron worth.


stop tickling me


----------



## PakFactor

The Eagle said:


> No for the both. Now you can make more wild guesses.





A little hint bro?


----------



## mingle

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> stop tickling me


Nothing real he just suggests


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## The Eagle

PakFactor said:


> A little hint bro?



Bhai! all I can say that it's for good.

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## WiderMan

5 Sqn Viper recovering at Shahbaz

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## WiderMan



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## Windjammer

WiderMan said:


> View attachment 661888


Yes posted that a few days earlier...some are of suggestion that they are JDAMS.

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## WiderMan

Windjammer said:


> Yes posted that a few days earlier...some are of suggestion that they are JDAMS.




GBU-38s are indeed JDAMs.

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## Windjammer



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## WiderMan

Windjammer said:


>



I can't tell whether this one's carrying a similar fit, but a sweet image nonetheless.

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## WiderMan

air marshal said:


> https://falcons.pk/photo/General-Dynamics-F-16BM-Fighting-Falcon/1692




Peace Gate III & IV aircraft. All internally strengthened airframes and were initially embargoed.

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## nangyale

jupiter2007 said:


> I think Pakistan has lost all hoped for additional F-16s and pretty much in China’s camp. Anything new coming will be coming from China.


Which is only for the better.


----------



## Armchair

Is there any news on ADF upgrade status?


----------



## Talon

WiderMan said:


> I can't tell whether this one's carrying a similar fit, but a sweet image nonetheless.
> 
> View attachment 661891


The second picture @Windjammer posted are normal dumb bombs,the Mark 82s


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## Talon

Windjammer said:


>


The thing that has been bugging me in this picture is why are safety pins still in place


----------



## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> The thing that has been bugging me in this picture is why are safety pins still in place


I think its still sitting on station.


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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> I think its still sitting on station.


Nope, it's on taxiway( check out the heat blur) nvm I inquired from a buddy and he said these are removed before take off when aircrafts are lined up in holding area

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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> Nope, it's on taxiway( check out the heat blur) nvm I inquired from a buddy and he said these are removed before take off when aircrafts are lined up in holding area


Yes i believe they are removed once well clear of the station area.

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## rana.aamir2990

Hodor said:


> 2 ship line up,ready for takeoff.. notice the centre line of both aircrafts
> 
> Photo source Instagram
> 
> View attachment 661161


Sir your Instagram please?


----------



## loanranger

Windjammer said:


> Yes i believe they are removed once well clear of the station area.


Quite a job those two chaps have out there


----------



## Signalian

For deception purposes, can JF-17 be disguised as F-16: visually and on radar as well as vice versa ?

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## Talon

Signalian said:


> For deception purposes, can JF-17 be disguised as F-16: visually and on radar as well as vice versa ?


Visually how?

For radar,thermal signatures,radar signatures and radar cross-section of both aircrafts are different so not possible?

Edit : By visually if you mean for AAAs and ManPads,for them aircraft type doesn't matter,they have to shoot it down whatever the type maybe.

Also these days visual targeting by air defense is almost gone,our JF-17s and F-16s conduct most of their anti terror as well as training ops over range at very high altitudes (not saying they dont conduct low alt ops) using TGPs,they don't need to come at low level so a AAA trying to take it out visually is unlikely (ignore that Parwaz hy Junoon stupid/unrealistic scenario in which ADF is dropping an LGB at 500ft )

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## Tipu7

Signalian said:


> For deception purposes, can JF-17 be disguised as F-16: visually and on radar as well as vice versa ?


There is a growing perception within Indian community that they shot down a Jf17 instead of F16 during Swift Retort. 

(Definitely they are desperately trying to find middle ground between 'No F16 was shot down' and 'IAF shot down PAF aircraft') 

I guess your question is directed towards this notion?

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## The Eagle

Tipu7 said:


> There is a growing perception within Indian community that they shot down a Jf17 instead of F16 during Swift Retort.
> 
> (Definitely they are desperately trying to find middle ground between 'No F16 was shot down' and 'IAF shot down PAF aircraft')
> 
> I guess your question is directed towards this notion?



Whatever the notion that these guys can wish for their own satisfaction; one thing is sure that most of them are using google image search.

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## SQ8

Signalian said:


> For deception purposes, can JF-17 be disguised as F-16: visually and on radar as well as vice versa ?


If you are referring to something like operation Bolo with F-4s pretending to be F-105s , it may be possible but difficult. Most airborne radars have NTCR capabilities today - so depending upon the equipment they can discern what is airborne. Same reason the Indians attempt to hide behind airliners was caught with 30 minute notice.

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## SQ8

Tipu7 said:


> There is a growing perception within Indian community that they shot down a Jf17 instead of F16 during Swift Retort.
> 
> (Definitely they are desperately trying to find middle ground between 'No F16 was shot down' and 'IAF shot down PAF aircraft')
> 
> I guess your question is directed towards this notion?


Why I would not make any effort in this regard other than managing our perception with other nationalities is because it is beneath the general Indian to agree to even equality with a Pakistani and they will not do it come hell or high water.

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## Sifar zero

I have a question how many of our f 16s have HMD?


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## Yasser76

Sifar zero said:


> I have a question how many of our f 16s have HMD?



All of them apart from the ADFs with No 19 Sqd.


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## Sifar zero

Yasser76 said:


> All of them apart from the ADFs with No 19 Sqd.


Can you please tell the numbers?


----------



## Nomad40

Sifar zero said:


> Can you please tell the numbers?


why?

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## Yasser76

Sifar zero said:


> Can you please tell the numbers?



14 A/Bs all ex USAF/RJAF


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## Yasser76

Sifar zero said:


> Sir Ajit Doval would be pleased with you.



You can reply sensibly or not at all, decision is yours and reflects your character, not mine.

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## WiderMan

Yasser76 said:


> 14 A/Bs all ex USAF/RJAF


 

I'm not sure where you got that from, we bought 9 A models and 4 B models.


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## Yasser76

1


WiderMan said:


> I'm not sure where you got that from, we bought 9 A models and 4 B models.


13, not 14, my bad.


----------



## WiderMan

Twin-stick from the 5th Sqn

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## Zulfiqar

WiderMan said:


> Twin-stick from the 5th Sqn
> 
> View attachment 662587




Question to you , @airomerix and @Raider 21 

I have seen Azman sb wearing Anti G vest (similar to one below) in one of the videos. However, I don't see it normally being worn (at least in pictures).

Does the F-16 community use it in PAF or was it just a one off personal item?

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## Raider 21

Zulfiqar said:


> Question to you , @airomerix and @Raider 21
> 
> I have seen Azman sb wearing Anti G vest (similar to one below) in one of the videos. However, I don't see it normally being worn (at least in pictures).
> 
> Does the F-16 community use it in PAF or was it just a one off personal item?


Probably a personal item from his time when he flew F-16s in USA

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## Windjammer

WiderMan said:


> Twin-stick from the 5th Sqn
> 
> View attachment 662587


I'm dismayed to see these tall brick walls on every PAF base, whatever protection they may provide to the aircraft, during a raid say an enemy rocket strikes these walls, the falling debris could still damage the aircraft parked below.
i like the Malaysian approach in this manner.

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## Tamiyah

Windjammer said:


> I'm dismayed to see these tall brick walls on every PAF base, whatever protection they may provide to the aircraft, during a raid say an enemy rocket strikes these walls, the falling debris could still damage the aircraft parked below.
> i like the Malaysian approach in this manner.


And what is the Malaysian approach? It would be really grateful if you could explain. Your reply is much appreciated.


----------



## ghazi52



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## Windjammer

Tamiyah said:


> And what is the Malaysian approach? It would be really grateful if you could explain. Your reply is much appreciated.


They seem to use Aluminium or metal dividers, a rocket or bullet would pierce through it without much debris.


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## Tamiyah

Windjammer said:


> They seem to use Aluminium or metal dividers, a rocket or bullet would pierce through it without much debris.


Very smart I must say.

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## Clairvoyant

ghazi52 said:


>



Pakistani F.16's don't carry sparrow missiles.


----------



## Pogical Thinking

Clairvoyant said:


> Pakistani F.16's don't carry sparrow missiles.


I think the ADF's do

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## Metal 0-1

Windjammer said:


> Yes posted that a few days earlier...some are of suggestion that they are JDAMS.





WiderMan said:


> GBU-38s are indeed JDAMs.



J-DAM kit is required to convert unguided bombs into guided ones.


----------



## Clairvoyant

Pogical Thinking said:


> I think the ADF's do



Pakistan airforce does not own any Sparrow missiles so the ADF's only carry sidewinders.


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## Clairvoyant

Metal 0-1 said:


> J-DAM kit is required to convert unguided bombs into guided ones.



Both 500Ib and 2000Ib JDAM's were delivered to Paf.


----------



## Metal 0-1

Clairvoyant said:


> Both 500Ib and 2000Ib JDAM's were delivered to Paf.


----------



## ghazi52



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## WiderMan

Apologies for the image being rather dated, but I'm a sucker for the No. 5

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## WiderMan

CAP fit






RF 16-4

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## WiderMan

Integrated Ops

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## nomi007

Only 75 F-16s are not enough for PAF, We have to find some 25 more f-16s for Paf.
also, upgradation of existing fleet to Block V standard is urgent,

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## Xone

nomi007 said:


> Only 75 F-16s are not enough for PAF, We have to find some 25 more f-16s for Paf.
> also, upgradation of existing fleet to Block V standard is urgent,


we have been listening about a lot of rumors of mysterious prospects of getting F16s but up till now, there were proven to be only tittle-tattle. what is the likelihood of f16 in the future appears to be very bleak as Pakistan and America's interest not coinciding anymore, How and where can we get these? it is not miraculously happening at the moment. The people having factual news are too secretive to share any tangible information, An unending speculation is still going on. The timeline mentioned by some informed members has elapsed and may be extended to an unforeseeable date and time. Anyhow, the wish for these birds is there, but the chance is no more than a pipe dream.


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## nomi007

In the frame is a pre-delivery photo of apparently camera-shy PAF F-16A serial number 92-731 seen with cargo under its port side wing. This Aircraft has Mig 21 Bison kill, credited on Feb 27, 2019. This Aircraft was embargoed but eventually delivered to PAF August 3, 2015. 
According to most sources, it went to the USN as 90-0944 in 2003. But USN example 90-0944 was photographed after a few days of this picture was taken so that one is still in existence and in service with USN.

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## ghazi52



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## Raider 21

nomi007 said:


> In the frame is a pre-delivery photo of apparently camera-shy PAF F-16A serial number 92-731 seen with cargo under its port side wing. This Aircraft has Mig 21 Bison kill, credited on Feb 27, 2019. This Aircraft was embargoed but eventually delivered to PAF August 3, 2015.
> According to most sources, it went to the USN as 90-0944 in 2003. But USN example 90-0944 was photographed after a few days of this picture was taken so that one is still in existence and in service with USN.
> View attachment 663610


They were all ex-USAF service birds that went to Pakistan. USN Vipers are still being flown at Top Gun, they won't let them go.

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## Akh1112

Here's a little bit of a tease for you guys. 

Remember the PAF visit to Dover AFB?





I ended up contacting Dover AFB's PR office to ask in regards to its mission. I received a response today. 


The "unaware of this" part was probably in reference to the fact that they got around to the email 2 weeks later so they probably had assumed the visit was more recent than it was. I did not specify a date.







Anyway, a little tease. I have censored the details, i dont want to be responsible for dozens of emails to 436 TAW lol. Find it yourselves. I would not email them though, you wont find anything more than what i shared.

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## Yasser76

Akh1112 said:


> Here's a little bit of a tease for you guys.
> 
> Remember the PAF visit to Dover AFB?
> View attachment 663655
> 
> 
> I ended up contacting Dover AFB's PR office to ask in regards to its mission. I received a response today.
> 
> 
> The "unaware of this" part was probably in reference to the fact that they got around to the email 2 weeks later so they probably had assumed the visit was more recent than it was. I did not specify a date.
> 
> View attachment 663656
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, a little tease. I have censored the details, i dont want to be responsible for dozens of emails to 436 TAW lol. Find it yourselves. I would not email them though, you wont find anything more than what i shared.




Nice find, but it could be anything from those pretty AH-1Zs to something like C-130 Ground servicing equipment.

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## Akh1112

Yasser76 said:


> Nice find, but it could be anything from those pretty AH-1Zs to something like C-130 Ground servicing equipment.




Yep, exactly, just a little tease however :p. Gotta wonder though what kinda payload they are carrying for them needing the IL-78 vs the C130 or whatever.

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## Trailer23



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## nomi007

In October 2019 Lockheed Martin Instagrammed a photo of a PAF's F-16BM serial #92622 inflight with an LM's test pilot on board. This particular airframe was the last one handed over to PAF as part of the ex-NSAWC airframes stored at AMARG ...

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## Raider 21

nomi007 said:


> In October 2019 Lockheed Martin Instagrammed a photo of a PAF's F-16BM serial #92622 inflight with an LM's test pilot on board. This particular airframe was the last one handed over to PAF as part of the ex-NSAWC airframes stored at AMARG ...


I don't think it was ex-NSAWC stored at AMARG. Those never went to storage, all 14 F-16A/B OCUs are being flown by NSAWC at NAS Fallon. 

Nonetheless great picture. I think this one is ex-USAF that was being used with the Air Force Material Command at Edwards AFB. The US Navy Vipers were never handed over.

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## Enigma SIG

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 663612


Na karain sir log dar jaein ge. Falcon wants to eat!


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## Yasser76

Interesting article by US writer who was on F-16 Monitoring team in Pakistan. Few mistakes like total F-16 numbers and assuming Italy flies the plan, but still interesting


*HOW AMERICA’S EXPERIENCE WITH PAKISTAN CAN HELP IT DEAL WITH TURKEY*
AARON STEIN AND ROBERT HAMILTON
AUGUST 25, 2020
COMMENTARY




In its ties with Turkey, the United States finds itself in a classic Catch-22. Turkish foreign policy often runs afoul of U.S. interests. However, Ankara is also a member of NATO, America’s most important alliance. Thus, any move to punish Ankara for threatening Western interests would weaken the Turkish military and undermine the longstanding U.S. policy goal of increasing the capabilities of its allies, especially those facing Russia along NATO’s eastern flank.
Turkey’s purchase of Russia’s S-400 air and missile defense system is a perfect example of Washington’s dilemma. In December 2017, Ankara finalized an agreement with the Russian Federation for the purchase of the S-400. In response, the United States removed Turkey from participation in the F-35 fighter aircraft program, because the S-400 can collect valuable electronic intelligence on the West’s newest jet. This outcome upended decades of Turkish planning for the future of its air force. While Ankara has plans to develop an indigenous fighter, any such program will likely be extremely expensive, face serious delays, and may not deliver enough fighter aircraft to replace its current inventory of F-16s. The problem now is to protect the F-35 from Russian exploitation — even after Turkey has taken ownership of the S-400 — while developing a mechanism to ensure Turkey can purchase new fighter aircraft.

BECOME A MEMBER

America’s experience with another troublesome ally — Pakistan — might have valuable lessons for U.S. defense officials in dealing with Turkey. The United States has sold and upgraded F-16s to Pakistan since the 1980s despite Islamabad’s support for the Taliban and Haqqani Network, growing nuclear arsenal, and use of terrorist groups to attack India. In order to buy F-16s after 9/11, Pakistan agreed to a program that allows U.S. technical security teams to monitor the end-use of the aircraft. A similar program could serve as a model to keep tabs on any future Turkish use of the F-35 and ensure a highly circumscribed S-400 deployment. The application of this strategy to Turkey faces a number of challenges, particularly given the state of Turkey’s deteriorating relationship with the United States and other Western countries. However, it may be the only realistic approach to protect the F-35 program and America’s interest in a capable Turkish Air Force.
*The Threat of Sanctions and the American Counter-Offer*
Turkey’s purchase of the S-400 ran afoul of the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act, a bipartisan sanctions package passed in August 2017 to limit President Donald Trump’s ability to unilaterally lift sanctions imposed on Russia for its interference in the 2016 election. The legislation requires the president to impose secondary sanctions on countries or individuals that engage in a “significant transaction” with any entity linked to Russia’s Ministry of Defense.
Buying a Russian-made air defense system most certainly met the definition of “significant transaction,” but Trump has ignored the law and resisted imposing sanctions on Ankara. In response, Congress has also sought to protect the F-35 from flying regularly in the same airspace as the S-400 to prevent Russia from gathering intelligence on America’s premier fighter aircraft. Turkey was a member of the F-35 consortium since 2001, paying an initial $175 million to help develop the jet. It invested hundreds of millions more throughout the F-35’s development for upgrades to Turkish bases in preparation to take ownership of at least 100 jets. A slew of Turkish companies also manufacture parts of the F-35 (including some where Turkish firms are the sole supplier) and Ankara was slated to be a hub for engine maintenance for F-35s sold to European countries (i.e., Belgium, Denmark, Italy, Poland, the Netherlands, Norway, and the United Kingdom).
During Ankara’s negotiations with Moscow on the S-400 purchase, the United States warned Turkey that finalizing the agreement could lead to Turkey’s removal from the F-35 program. Ankara ignored the warning, perhaps reasoning that it could create a mechanism to assuage U.S. concerns about Russia collecting electronic information about the aircraft so that it could operate both systems. This proved to be a bad bet. In the Fiscal Year 2019 National Defense Authorization Act, the United States commissioned a study to identify alternative suppliers to replace Turkish firms in the F-35 program. It then removed Turkey from the program altogether, blocked the transfer of the jet, and appropriated money for the U.S. Air Force to purchase the jets made for Turkey and upgrade them to meet American specifications.
The American approach did not rely solely on sticks. Between the FY2019 National Defense Authorization Act, when the study was first commissioned, and FY2020, when Ankara was officially removed from the program, the United States sought to offer Turkey an alternative air and missile defense system. The American proposal to Turkey for the export of two systems — the National Advanced Surface to Air Missile System and the Patriot missile system — came amidst broader bilateral acrimony. Turkey detained American pastor Andrew Brunson and the tensions over his detainment reached as high as the White House. Still, despite this, the Trump administration convinced a Turkey-skeptical Congress to authorize the export of both systems. By this point, however, the U.S. offer was too late. Ankara and Moscow already reached an agreement on a Russian loan for the purchase of the S-400, and plans were underway to begin the training of Turkish crews in Russia to operate the system.
The Turkish government began to receive its S-400 from Russia in July 2019 and accepted final delivery of the first of two regiments in January 2020. During this delivery, Ankara went as far as to test the S-400 radar against the F-16 in a showy display of defiance, undoubtedly intended to signal to the United States that Turkey was committed to using the S-400 regardless of a potential U.S. backlash. However, Turkey’s calculations changed after a severe economic downturn and the onslaught of the COVID-19 pandemic. In the face of a foreign exchange and public health crisis, Ankara delayed the deployment of the system in April. Moreover, Trump indicated that he would hold off on imposing sanctions if Ankara kept the system in storage.
Faced with U.S. sanctions, Ankara chose not to “activate” the S-400. This move was purely symbolic since Turkey had already tested the system against the F-16, stored the S-400 at Akinci Air Base, and trained crews to operate it. However, keeping the missile defense system in storage does not solve the problem. Instead, it merely diminishes the likelihood of Turkey ever receiving the F-35, especially since the decision to use the S-400 is pegged to the whims of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
With Turkey now having taken ownership of the S-400 and would-be Turkish F-35s destined for the U.S. Air Force, the time has come to explore whether it is possible for the two allies to move past this deterioration in bilateral relations. A compromise to manage Turkey’s S-400 operation may not enable Turkey’s return to the F-35 consortium, but it could create a pathway to allow Ankara to purchase the jet later down the road.
Ankara will face a tough decision in a few years: If Turkey no longer has access to the F-35, what aircraft should replace its aging F-16s? It could opt to appropriate money to extend the life of some of its airframes, wait for a costly and economically uncertain effort to produce its own fighter, look to other countries to purchase a front-line fighter, or cobble together some amalgamation of each of these options. The United States has an interest in ensuring that the S-400 is the last piece of Russian defense kit that Turkey buys and that Ankara foregoes the purchase of a second S-400 regiment. From Washington’s perspective, Turkey should have the option to purchase Western fighters and even the F-35 eventually so long as a mechanism is put in place to ensure that the S-400 is not deployed.
*The Pakistan F-16 Model*
One option the United States should consider is the Pakistan model. Admittedly, it is rare — especially lately — for Pakistan to be held up as a good example of defense cooperation with the United States. Its longstanding ties to insurgent groups in Afghanistan and shadowy nuclear program have bedeviled the bilateral relationship for decades. Nevertheless, there is one area where Pakistan has been, in many respects, a model foreign customer, and that is in its F-16 program.
Pakistan’s 85 F-16s are a source of national pride and position the Pakistan Air Force among the world’s elite. The origins of the program date back to 1981 when, in the aftermath of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the United States agreed to sell Pakistan F-16s to engage the Soviet and Afghan jets that periodically crossed the border to bomb mujahideen training camps. Between 1986 and 1990, Pakistani F-16s shot down at least 10 Afghan and Soviet jets, helicopters, and transport planes.
In the 1990s, the program fell victim to one of the periodic ruptures in the relationship between Washington and Islamabad. Becoming ever more concerned about Pakistan’s undeclared nuclear program — and having lost interest in Afghanistan after the 1989 Soviet withdrawal — the United States refused to deliver 28 F-16s for which Pakistan had paid some $658 million. Although the United States eventually refunded much of the money, Islamabad harbored deep reservations about what it saw as America’s lack of trustworthiness as an ally.
After 9/11, U.S. attitudes changed again. South Asia was at the forefront of American national security policy and Pakistan was — at least initially — seen as an indispensable partner in the campaign to stabilize Afghanistan. President Pervez Musharraf pledged his support to the U.S. war in Afghanistan, and Pakistan allowed its territory to become the primary resupply route for coalition forces fighting there. The F-16 program benefited from the rapprochement in the bilateral relationship. In the first decade after 9/11, the United States agreed to sell Pakistan 18 advanced Block 52 F-16s for approximately $1.4 billion, as well as targeting pods and electronic warfare pods. It also sold mid-life upgrade kits for 53 of Pakistan’s older model F-16s, which made them essentially as capable as the Block 52 version of the aircraft. Turkey, which also flies the F-16, did the upgrades of Pakistan’s fighter aircraft.
The U.S. decision to deliver advanced versions of the F-16 as well as targeting and electronic warfare equipment to Pakistan did not come without strings. And this is where the Pakistan model may hold the key to resolving the impasse over Turkey and the F-35. When it approved the sale of advanced F-16s to Pakistan and the upgrade of older models, the United States also insisted on an unprecedented level of oversight of the program. In order to protect the technology it was exporting, Washington required Islamabad to accept and pay for the deployment of a U.S. technical security team at the Shahbaz and Mushaf air force bases — the two locations where the advanced F-16s were to be deployed.
One of the authors of this article served in the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan at the time and was involved in this program, making several visits to Pakistani F-16 bases to ensure the required security upgrades were completed before the aircraft were deployed there. Each technical security team is made up of four to five U.S. Air Force personnel and some 30 contractors who keep a round-the-clock watch on Pakistan’s advanced F-16s. In total, Pakistan has around 85 F-16s, 66 of which are older Block 15 aircraft and 19 of which are the more modern Block 52. Most of the Block 15 aircraft have received the mid-life upgrade, meaning they are also subject to technical security team monitoring. The mission of the teams is to ensure that the Pakistan Air Force uses its F-16s as intended, does not modify them or the weapons they carry, and does not share the technology with unauthorized parties. In Pakistan’s case, the latter issue is especially salient, because the air force also flies the JF-17 fighter, which it jointly manufactures with China. On bases where advanced F-16s are present, the United States requires that Pakistan separate them from other aircraft and strictly limit access to the area where they are located.
Despite its behavior in other areas, Pakistan has been a steady partner in its F-16 program. The Pakistan Air Force uses its F-16s extensively to attack militants in its tribal areas and shares cockpit footage of these operations with the United States (which one of the authors was able to view while stationed in Pakistan). The presence of technical security teams allows the United States to monitor how Pakistan uses these jets, since their weapons load is configured differently for air-to-ground and air-to-air operations. Of course, in a national emergency, even continuous monitoring can’t prevent the Pakistan Air Force from using its F-16s in ways the United States doesn’t like. For example, in February 2019 India claimed a Pakistani F-16 shot down one of its jets in a skirmish over the border between the two. Pakistan denies this, claiming a Pakistan Air Force JF-17 downed the Indian plane. The U.S. State Department has expressed concern about the incident, but did not directly accuse Pakistan of using its F-16s against India. Instead, it admonished Islamabad for moving some of its F-16s to bases not approved by the United States, indicating that both sides would prefer to let the issue rest. This incident highlights a limitation on all U.S. oversight of military equipment it sells to foreign partners, not just Pakistan. When national survival appears to be at stake, U.S. partners will not be deterred by admonitions to use weapons only for certain missions or against certain threats. This needs to be considered early in the process, before an export license is issued.
Since the lifting of U.S. sanctions on Pakistan after 9/11, the United States and Pakistan have jointly invested some $3 billion in the F-16 program, and despite the irritants elsewhere in the bilateral relationship, cooperation between the two air forces remains robust. Pakistan also cooperates with countries that fly the F-16, including Italy, Jordan, and Turkey. It accepts the intrusive inspection regime of the technical security teams without complaint, and to this point the teams have not registered major violations of the technology security regime they have put in place. Indeed, in the experience of one of the authors, the technical security teams have been a confidence-builder and a shock-absorber in what is otherwise an unstable bilateral relationship. At least in part because of the personal relationships formed between American team members and Pakistan Air Force officers, the U.S. military contingent in the embassy has a better relationship with the Pakistan Air Force than the army or navy. The extensive cooperation between the Turkish and Pakistani air forces — including periodic exercises and the mid-life upgrades of Pakistani F-16s — means that Turkey is familiar with technical security teams and their role in protecting advanced U.S. technology.
Pakistan and Turkey have one more thing in common: The only thing more difficult than partnering with them is dealing with the consequences when the partnership falls apart. As frustrating as Islamabad and Ankara are as partners for the United States (the inverse, by the way, is also true), they are a greater danger to U.S. interests as adversaries. Keeping Turkey on-side as a NATO ally and a customer — if no longer a trusted partner — of the F-35 program is an important American interest, and one that can be achieved with little risk of compromise of U.S. technology.
*Finding a Way to Break the Impasse*
Turkey’s political decision to not activate the S-400 and to keep it in storage (for now) may have provided a pathway for Ankara to eventually operate the F-35. The United States faces two interrelated challenges that it now needs to manage. The first is that Congress is eager to see the president enforce the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act and is pushing to sanction Turkey for the S-400 purchase. The second is that Ankara has already taken ownership of the S-400, so the United States would have to verify the non-use of the system, perhaps as part of a broader arrangement that could allow for Ankara to take ownership of the F-35.
This approach would require lifting elements from the Pakistan F-16 model and repurposing it to manage the S-400 issue. The U.S-Turkish relationship has been beset by mistrust over the past half-decade, linked to divergent views on the threats emanating from Syria and the choice of partners to fight the Islamic State. Turkish politics have also become more authoritarian, with the ruling Justice and Development Party more dependent than ever on nationalist forces within the country that view the United States and Europe as a threat to Turkish national security.
The problem is how to verify that Ankara does not activate the S-400. To begin negotiations and overcome mistrust, Turkey and the United States should pursue confidence-building measures, such as a bilateral, one-day conference focused on the threat of Russian surface-to-air missiles and the freezing of Turkish-Russian negotiations for a second S-400 regiment. This symposium could be labeled as a technical working group, which is a proposal Ankara has floated to address the S-400 issue with Washington. The meeting could focus on an exchange of data about the S-400 and other surface-to-air missiles, perhaps including the Pantsir system that Turkish drones have had some success against in Syria and Libya. This mechanism would allow Erdogan to communicate to his own base that the United States had capitulated to a key demand, giving him space to sell a compromise with Washington. In truth, Erdogan’s control over Turkish politics is near complete, so he has the flexibility to frame issues as he sees fit and can make concessions if he directs his government to do so.
This symposium could serve as a catalyst to reach a broader agreement on the S-400. The Russian missile system is easily identifiable from space and usually deployed on concrete pads that make them easy to spot with satellite imagery. One potential solution would be for Ankara to declare that Akinci Air Base will be the only deployment location for its S-400 regiment. The two sides could then work out an arrangement to monitor this declaration with open-source satellite imagery, collected each day and shared between the two parties to avoid classification issues. This mechanism would then be augmented with periodic site visits to verify the satellite imagery — a requirement that Congress is certain to demand before approving a major weapons sale to Turkey — beginning with the approval of exports to support a Turkish F-16 life-extension program.
As an added confidence-building measure, Turkey could provide the United States with a complete list of S-400 equipment by serial number. During site visits, U.S. inspectors could inventory the equipment to ensure it remains in storage. The goal here would be to inventory 100 percent of the S-400 equipment each year — a practice that would verify that the deployment site is not changed in secret and allow the United States to learn a bit more about a system it trains to defeat (an outcome Russia would almost certainly object to). Moscow, however, charged Turkey more for its S-400 than either India of China, a decision that appears to have built in the risk that Ankara could someday cancel the deal because of Western pressure. In any case, since the United States already does this with sensitive military equipment it provides to foreign partners (including Turkey), the Turkish armed forces will be familiar with this requirement.
After a set number of visits, Turkey could be allowed to purchase the F-35 as a foreign customer. The six F-35s that were initially slated for Turkey but are now being stored in the United States could be sent quickly to the Turkish Air Force after training is completed. Ankara should also be expected to welcome a U.S. technical security team at Malatya Air Base, where the Turkish Air Force had made the necessary upgrades to stand up its first F-35 squadron. This approach could be used to ensure that Ankara protects the aircraft’s technical secrets, perhaps even during a selected period of time where it could perform routine tests of the S-400 radar. In this scenario, Ankara could have windows of time to perform operative tests, or keep trained S-400 crews current, leaving the work to the U.S. teams embedded at Malatya to verify the non-flight of F-35s on days when the S-400 is active. American personnel could also review the F-35 logs to check for S-400 radar emissions to further verify that the two systems were not operated at the same time. This would be an arduous process for the Turkish Air Force, but it is the reality that Ankara now faces.
This proposed arrangement is dependent on Ankara being willing to countenance an intrusive American presence at a Turkish Air Force base. It also would do little to convince Congress on the necessity of using Turkey as an example to deter other states from purchasing military equipment from Russia. However, it could provide a way forward for Ankara to receive the F-35 and, under tightly circumscribed terms, save some face and claim to operate both the S-400 and F-35. This would not be technically true, but could be used as a means for Ankara to sell a compromise with Washington. This arrangement would advance U.S. strategic and commercial interests — Turkey would buy American fighter aircraft, the F-35 would be protected from exploitation, and Ankara would be unlikely to buy additional Russian defense equipment.
*Looking Ahead*
Pakistan was once described as “the ally from hell.” Even as Washington provided it more than $30 billion in aid after 9/11, Pakistan gave sanctuary to the Taliban and supported the Haqqani Network. Nevertheless, the United States was able to sell the Pakistan Air Force F-16s under strict end-use conditions. Washington should take a similar approach to Turkey — a problematic, but key NATO ally with whom it shares a number of interests.
Turkey and the United States have significant political differences over events in the region, but the health of NATO collective defense matters more than bilateral spats between two longtime allies. Ankara risked the security of the F-35 program with its S-400 purchase. There is a pathway to try and overcome this issue, but it will require creative thinking to verify the non-deployment and highly circumscribed use of the S-400. The Pakistan F-16 model is a realistic option and could provide a way to overcome a problem that can be solved with a mixture of technical cooperation and an onsite presence.










How America’s Experience with Pakistan Can Help it Deal with Turkey - War on the Rocks


In its ties with Turkey, the United States finds itself in a classic Catch-22. Turkish foreign policy often runs afoul of U.S. interests. However, Ankara



warontherocks.com

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## GriffinsRule

Raider 21 said:


> I don't think it was ex-NSAWC stored at AMARG. Those never went to storage, all 14 F-16A/B OCUs are being flown by NSAWC at NAS Fallon.
> 
> Nonetheless great picture. I think this one is ex-USAF that was being used with the Air Force Material Command at Edwards AFB. The US Navy Vipers were never handed over.



It was the pattern aircraft for the MLU that was done in Turkey for the rest of the fleet.


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## mshan44



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## AMRAAM

Akh1112 said:


> Here's a little bit of a tease for you guys.
> 
> Remember the PAF visit to Dover AFB?
> View attachment 663655
> 
> 
> I ended up contacting Dover AFB's PR office to ask in regards to its mission. I received a response today.
> 
> 
> The "unaware of this" part was probably in reference to the fact that they got around to the email 2 weeks later so they probably had assumed the visit was more recent than it was. I did not specify a date.
> 
> View attachment 663656
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, a little tease. I have censored the details, i dont want to be responsible for dozens of emails to 436 TAW lol. Find it yourselves. I would not email them though, you wont find anything more than what i shared.



Nice share.

I've lowered my expectations regarding any news about procurements. Since all the hype of Block 70s to V upgrades to AH-1Zs to C-130j to J-10C to J-16 to JH-7 over the past two years and no official words from anywhere so far.

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## Pogical Thinking

Billions wasted? Iraqi pilots claim pricey F-16 program is falling apart

Nine years ago, just before the Obama administration pulled the plug on a troop presence in Iraq, Baghdad signed a landmark $4.3 billion, U.S.-backed Lockheed Martin deal to bolster its burgeoning air force with its very own fleet of F-16 fighter jets. The first batch arrived three years later, under the guise that the force would stand on its own two feet.

But billions of dollars and almost a decade later, some Iraqi pilots tell Fox News that there is little left of their investment and they fear few pilots are combat-ready to take on another ISIS wave or emerging threat.

So, what is going on?

Even before the global coronavirus pandemic swept through the beleaguered country, the Iraqi military was on high alert after the Jan. 3 U.S. assassination of Iran's top commander, Gen. Qassem Soleimani, as he touched down in Baghdad. Retaliatory missile strikes against two U.S. bases resulted in the U.S. withdrawing some contractors and troops from an array of locations -- including the F-16 homestead, Balad Airbase, just north of the capital.

Lockheed Martin contractors withdrew from the base between Jan. 4 and 8, after enduring indirect rocket fire from Iran-backed militias, the Pentagon confirmed at the time.

But according to two Iraqi Air Force pilots, who spoke on the condition of anonymity as they were not authorized to speak on the record, issues have emerged over the past months.

"The issue is Lockheed withdrew its employees. However, all these planes [F-16s] need to be serviced and supervised," one source said. "But because of a lack of parts, the Iraqi defense ministry started making its own parts and things, which is not allowed and effectively voids the warranty on them. In one case, a tool was left inside one of the engines."

The Iraqi pilot claimed that "most planes are now grounded because they [air force personnel] don't know what they are doing re the upkeeping, which in turn means that the Iraqi pilots can't do their certification flights every month thus are rendered not combat-ready."

Another Iraqi military analyst framed the alleged situation as especially concerning, given that the F-16s are "essentially their strongest weapon against ISIS," which still frequently carries out attacks across its collapsed "caliphate" spawning Iraq and Syria.

"We used to fly 16 sorties [a takeoff mission] a day with two jets standby for combat. But now only two-[to-]four sorties a day if we even get airborne. This is due to the lack of proper maintenance and spare parts for the airplanes," a second pilot continued. "So much wasted money. The planes are poorly maintained; it went from 18 to 20 airplanes fully combat-capable to only seven now."

The insider also underscored that while the controversial Iranian-supported militias -- known as the Popular Mobilization Forces (PMFs) and adverse to the U.S and its allies -- have not made use of the F-16s, the fear remains that with little American footprint on the ground, "there would be little to stop them" going forward.

PMF units have, in years past, taken the helm of American-made Iraqi M1 Abrams tanks.

Similar concerns over the F-16s were raised earlier this month by the Iraqi Oil Report, which stressed that the apparent "grounded jets serve as a prime example of expensive U.S. military assistance that has failed to create a meaningful Iraqi military capacity."

Part of the roughly $300 million per year purchase agreement, according to the Iraqi Oil Report analysis, was that Lockheed engineers would "maintain the fleet of fighter jets." The agreement also stipulated that mission equipment and a support package [would be] provided by Lockheed and other companies."

While Fox News could not verify the claims made by the Iraqi pilots, and the numbers provided as to how many of the bomber jets are ready to fight, a U.S. government official said that Lockheed Martin is still working with the Iraqi air force and servicing the F-16s and that the Pentagon was "not aware of Iraqis making their own parts for the program."

"The security assistance enterprise has been working diligently with our Iraqi partners to support their F-16 program," the official said.

And in a statement to Fox News, a spokesperson for Lockheed Martin also emphasized that the company "values the relationship and partnership we have with the Iraqi Air Force," and referred further questions to Baghdad officials.

Iraq's Ministry of Defense (MOD) has dismissed claims of fatal flaws in the F-16 accord.

"The F-16 jets continue to fly for training and combat missions even after the withdrawal of the American companies," the ministry said in a statement posted on Facebook last month, muddying the extent to which Lockheed is indeed working with Iraq on the ground, but highlighting that the "Iraqi expertise that has the proven ability to maintain these modern jets, having completed technical workshops at different levels."

A spokesperson for the Iraqi air force additionally told Fox News last week that its top commander had just returned from a visit to Balad Airbase, insisting that there were 19 F-16s, "all of them in good condition" and now reliant on Iraqi technicians and experience, but it was hopeful that Lockheed employees would "return to Iraq very soon."

Moreover, a recent Rudaw article reported that Maj. Gen. Tahsin Khafaji, spokesperson of the Iraqi Joint Operations Command, told Iraqi state media that all the jets are "in good condition," insisting that "Iraqi F-16 fighter jets will continue to target the ISIS remnants, as the jets are all in good condition. Iraqi technicians are constantly working on maintaining the F-16 jets to continue their work targeting ISIS terrorists."

But the denial of problems, according to several Iraqis on the ground, is an immense source of frustration and concern for those tasked with being in the line of fire.

"The longer there are no contractors, the worse it is going to get," the Iraqi military analyst surmised.

As early as January this year, concerns were percolating that the Iraqi F-16s "could be in jeopardy" as conflict with Iran reached fever pitch. According to Foreign Policy magazine, the supposed "gesture of goodwill and a good-faith effort to give Iraq the military it needed to defend itself against regional adversaries like Iran and the Islamic State [ISIS]," had turned sour with both U.S. and Iraqi officials expressing a growing concern that the fleet was "vulnerable to seizure by Iranian-backed militias."

"Since the contractors left Balad, some officials are concerned that the weapons, technology, and components associated with the F-16s could be vulnerable," Foreign Policy wrote, citing a former Iraqi F-16 pilot who also lamented that the Iraqi soldiers on base were not being given adequate food, rest and were operating on "a rotating schedule, with one week on base and one week off so they can seek employment elsewhere, causing potential operations gaps."

Reports have also pointed to Balad Air Force as a prominent point of corruption in the Iraqi military apparatus, ranging from schemes to steal fuel to smuggle on the black market, to Sallyport Security personnel on base becoming embroiled in alcohol smuggling and human trafficking endeavors -- all of which contribute to the calamity and hinder the readiness of pilots in the hot zone.

Having not had much in the way of an air force in the aftermath of the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq and the toppling of dictator Saddam Hussein, the new Iraqi government first put the steps in motion in 2008 to buy 36 advanced F-16s, the most sophisticated system it could add to its arsenal, at the height and surge of the Iraqi war. The first order was made in 2011, and a second in 2012, with the intention to aid an American withdrawal and empower Iraq to be able to defend its own borders. The delivery came in June 2014 -- just days before a then little-known terrorist outfit named ISIS took sudden control of the country's second-largest city, Mosul, before going on to annex a third of the conflict-crippled country.

But the question of whether the goal of self-sufficiency has been achieved is seemingly subjective.

"On paper, Iraq should have a small fleet of premium multirole aircraft for its national security needs," said Miguel Miranda, an expert analyst in global military technology. "But whether or not Iraqi airpower grows in the 2020s is wholly dependent on the state budget, which is itself determined by the price of oil. If the Iraqi government can't sustain spending on its air force to keep what it already has in flyable condition, there are many examples of countries whose air power withered to nothing."

Iraqi leaders descended on Washington last week for critical talks regarding the future of U.S. military aid in the volatile region, which was strained after the Solemani killing and threats from some top Baghdad officials to kick out American troops.

*"The F-16s have been based at the Balad airfield, which has been regularly targeted with rockets and mortars by pro-Iranian militias. My view is that the F-16 program could be in serious trouble if the Iraqi government is unable or unwilling to fulfil its most basic international obligation to protect U.S. diplomats, troops, and contractors that they've invited into their country."*


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## Akh1112

AMRAAM said:


> Nice share.
> 
> I've lowered my expectations regarding any news about procurements. Since all the hype of Block 70s to V upgrades to AH-1Zs to C-130j to J-10C to J-16 to JH-7 over the past two years and no official words from anywhere so far.




I'm going to sound like a massive hypocrite however, PA did not overtly announce a VT4 acquisition, an insider at NORINCO had broke the news. As always though, this could be something like spares or it could be something big. Who knows.

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## Ali_Baba

Pogical Thinking said:


> Billions wasted? Iraqi pilots claim pricey F-16 program is falling apart
> 
> Nine years ago, just before the Obama administration pulled the plug on a troop presence in Iraq, Baghdad signed a landmark $4.3 billion, U.S.-backed Lockheed Martin deal to bolster its burgeoning air force with its very own fleet of F-16 fighter jets. The first batch arrived three years later, under the guise that the force would stand on its own two feet.
> 
> But billions of dollars and almost a decade later, some Iraqi pilots tell Fox News that there is little left of their investment and they fear few pilots are combat-ready to take on another ISIS wave or emerging threat.
> 
> So, what is going on?
> 
> Even before the global coronavirus pandemic swept through the beleaguered country, the Iraqi military was on high alert after the Jan. 3 U.S. assassination of Iran's top commander, Gen. Qassem Soleimani, as he touched down in Baghdad. Retaliatory missile strikes against two U.S. bases resulted in the U.S. withdrawing some contractors and troops from an array of locations -- including the F-16 homestead, Balad Airbase, just north of the capital.
> 
> Lockheed Martin contractors withdrew from the base between Jan. 4 and 8, after enduring indirect rocket fire from Iran-backed militias, the Pentagon confirmed at the time.
> 
> But according to two Iraqi Air Force pilots, who spoke on the condition of anonymity as they were not authorized to speak on the record, issues have emerged over the past months.
> 
> "The issue is Lockheed withdrew its employees. However, all these planes [F-16s] need to be serviced and supervised," one source said. "But because of a lack of parts, the Iraqi defense ministry started making its own parts and things, which is not allowed and effectively voids the warranty on them. In one case, a tool was left inside one of the engines."
> 
> The Iraqi pilot claimed that "most planes are now grounded because they [air force personnel] don't know what they are doing re the upkeeping, which in turn means that the Iraqi pilots can't do their certification flights every month thus are rendered not combat-ready."
> 
> Another Iraqi military analyst framed the alleged situation as especially concerning, given that the F-16s are "essentially their strongest weapon against ISIS," which still frequently carries out attacks across its collapsed "caliphate" spawning Iraq and Syria.
> 
> "We used to fly 16 sorties [a takeoff mission] a day with two jets standby for combat. But now only two-[to-]four sorties a day if we even get airborne. This is due to the lack of proper maintenance and spare parts for the airplanes," a second pilot continued. "So much wasted money. The planes are poorly maintained; it went from 18 to 20 airplanes fully combat-capable to only seven now."
> 
> The insider also underscored that while the controversial Iranian-supported militias -- known as the Popular Mobilization Forces (PMFs) and adverse to the U.S and its allies -- have not made use of the F-16s, the fear remains that with little American footprint on the ground, "there would be little to stop them" going forward.
> 
> PMF units have, in years past, taken the helm of American-made Iraqi M1 Abrams tanks.
> 
> Similar concerns over the F-16s were raised earlier this month by the Iraqi Oil Report, which stressed that the apparent "grounded jets serve as a prime example of expensive U.S. military assistance that has failed to create a meaningful Iraqi military capacity."
> 
> Part of the roughly $300 million per year purchase agreement, according to the Iraqi Oil Report analysis, was that Lockheed engineers would "maintain the fleet of fighter jets." The agreement also stipulated that mission equipment and a support package [would be] provided by Lockheed and other companies."
> 
> While Fox News could not verify the claims made by the Iraqi pilots, and the numbers provided as to how many of the bomber jets are ready to fight, a U.S. government official said that Lockheed Martin is still working with the Iraqi air force and servicing the F-16s and that the Pentagon was "not aware of Iraqis making their own parts for the program."
> 
> "The security assistance enterprise has been working diligently with our Iraqi partners to support their F-16 program," the official said.
> 
> And in a statement to Fox News, a spokesperson for Lockheed Martin also emphasized that the company "values the relationship and partnership we have with the Iraqi Air Force," and referred further questions to Baghdad officials.
> 
> Iraq's Ministry of Defense (MOD) has dismissed claims of fatal flaws in the F-16 accord.
> 
> "The F-16 jets continue to fly for training and combat missions even after the withdrawal of the American companies," the ministry said in a statement posted on Facebook last month, muddying the extent to which Lockheed is indeed working with Iraq on the ground, but highlighting that the "Iraqi expertise that has the proven ability to maintain these modern jets, having completed technical workshops at different levels."
> 
> A spokesperson for the Iraqi air force additionally told Fox News last week that its top commander had just returned from a visit to Balad Airbase, insisting that there were 19 F-16s, "all of them in good condition" and now reliant on Iraqi technicians and experience, but it was hopeful that Lockheed employees would "return to Iraq very soon."
> 
> Moreover, a recent Rudaw article reported that Maj. Gen. Tahsin Khafaji, spokesperson of the Iraqi Joint Operations Command, told Iraqi state media that all the jets are "in good condition," insisting that "Iraqi F-16 fighter jets will continue to target the ISIS remnants, as the jets are all in good condition. Iraqi technicians are constantly working on maintaining the F-16 jets to continue their work targeting ISIS terrorists."
> 
> But the denial of problems, according to several Iraqis on the ground, is an immense source of frustration and concern for those tasked with being in the line of fire.
> 
> "The longer there are no contractors, the worse it is going to get," the Iraqi military analyst surmised.
> 
> As early as January this year, concerns were percolating that the Iraqi F-16s "could be in jeopardy" as conflict with Iran reached fever pitch. According to Foreign Policy magazine, the supposed "gesture of goodwill and a good-faith effort to give Iraq the military it needed to defend itself against regional adversaries like Iran and the Islamic State [ISIS]," had turned sour with both U.S. and Iraqi officials expressing a growing concern that the fleet was "vulnerable to seizure by Iranian-backed militias."
> 
> "Since the contractors left Balad, some officials are concerned that the weapons, technology, and components associated with the F-16s could be vulnerable," Foreign Policy wrote, citing a former Iraqi F-16 pilot who also lamented that the Iraqi soldiers on base were not being given adequate food, rest and were operating on "a rotating schedule, with one week on base and one week off so they can seek employment elsewhere, causing potential operations gaps."
> 
> Reports have also pointed to Balad Air Force as a prominent point of corruption in the Iraqi military apparatus, ranging from schemes to steal fuel to smuggle on the black market, to Sallyport Security personnel on base becoming embroiled in alcohol smuggling and human trafficking endeavors -- all of which contribute to the calamity and hinder the readiness of pilots in the hot zone.
> 
> Having not had much in the way of an air force in the aftermath of the 2003 U.S.-led invasion of Iraq and the toppling of dictator Saddam Hussein, the new Iraqi government first put the steps in motion in 2008 to buy 36 advanced F-16s, the most sophisticated system it could add to its arsenal, at the height and surge of the Iraqi war. The first order was made in 2011, and a second in 2012, with the intention to aid an American withdrawal and empower Iraq to be able to defend its own borders. The delivery came in June 2014 -- just days before a then little-known terrorist outfit named ISIS took sudden control of the country's second-largest city, Mosul, before going on to annex a third of the conflict-crippled country.
> 
> But the question of whether the goal of self-sufficiency has been achieved is seemingly subjective.
> 
> "On paper, Iraq should have a small fleet of premium multirole aircraft for its national security needs," said Miguel Miranda, an expert analyst in global military technology. "But whether or not Iraqi airpower grows in the 2020s is wholly dependent on the state budget, which is itself determined by the price of oil. If the Iraqi government can't sustain spending on its air force to keep what it already has in flyable condition, there are many examples of countries whose air power withered to nothing."
> 
> Iraqi leaders descended on Washington last week for critical talks regarding the future of U.S. military aid in the volatile region, which was strained after the Solemani killing and threats from some top Baghdad officials to kick out American troops.
> 
> *"The F-16s have been based at the Balad airfield, which has been regularly targeted with rockets and mortars by pro-Iranian militias. My view is that the F-16 program could be in serious trouble if the Iraqi government is unable or unwilling to fulfil its most basic international obligation to protect U.S. diplomats, troops, and contractors that they've invited into their country."*




Iraq would be better off buying JF17s, or Mig29's as they have a very large resource pool trained to maintain and operate the RD engine, and the complexity of the maintenance requirements falls into their current skill level. The JF17 has from the outset, designed to be v.v. easy to maintain.

With the latest targetting pods, the JF17s can fill the role the F16s had for tackling ISIS. Also, the presence of Pakistan teams to help train the personnel would be less toxic to the locals than the Americans.

F16s were a bad idea for them given the state of the airforce, personnel and country at large.


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## The Raven

The Iraqi Vipers seem like an attractive target for the PAF, in a similar manner as the Jordanian deal. If the Iraqis and Yanks play ball, everyone could be happy - the Vipers don't fall into the hands of Iranian sympathisers in Iraq, the Iraqis forego an expensive white elephant, and the PAF acquires more Vipers. In addition, if the Pak government is smart enough, they could throw in JF-17s as partial replacement for the lost Vipers, and as @Ali_Baba has mentioned, these would be far easier for Iraq to maintain.

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## kursed

Akh1112 said:


> I'm going to sound like a massive hypocrite however, PA did not overtly announce a VT4 acquisition, an insider at NORINCO had broke the news. As always though, this could be something like spares or it could be something big. Who knows.


It is just sale of spares. There are no F-16 upgrades to V standard happening, neither are there any Block 70/72 sales to Pakistan. USG will be declaring both in writing to Congress, if and when it at all happens.

Likewise, no AH-1Z have reached Pakistan either. Pompeo issued a non statement regarding defense ties with Pakistan, not so long ago. Which pretty much clarified that no new sales are taking place.

Pakistan-US defense relationship is fairly overt, and doesn’t work like the one with China or elsewhere.

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## Tomcats

kursed said:


> It is just sale of spares. There are no F-16 upgrades to V standard happening, neither are there any Block 70/72 sales to Pakistan. USG will be declaring both in writing to Congress, if and when it at all happens.
> 
> Likewise, no AH-1Z have reached Pakistan either. Pompeo issued a non statement regarding defense ties with Pakistan, not so long ago. Which pretty much clarified that no new sales are taking place.
> 
> Pakistan-US defense relationship is fairly overt, and doesn’t work like the one with China or elsewhere.


Can you link the statement of Pompeo pls? I would like to have a read.


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## kursed

Issam said:


> Can you link the statement of Pompeo pls? I would like to have a read.


Asst. Sct, State my bad, not Pompeo. 














Update on U.S. Security Cooperation and Defense Trade - United States Department of State


Assistant Secretary R. Clarke Cooper discusses the latest developments in U.S. security assistance, defense trade, peacekeeping capacity building and humanitarian mine action. This includes recent historic sales to the Indo-Pacific region, changes to the export policy for Unmanned Aerial...




www.state.gov

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## Akh1112

kursed said:


> It is just sale of spares. There are no F-16 upgrades to V standard happening, neither are there any Block 70/72 sales to Pakistan. USG will be declaring both in writing to Congress, if and when it at all happens.
> 
> Likewise, no AH-1Z have reached Pakistan either. Pompeo issued a non statement regarding defense ties with Pakistan, not so long ago. Which pretty much clarified that no new sales are taking place.
> 
> Pakistan-US defense relationship is fairly overt, and doesn’t work like the one with China or elsewhere.




For sure, i was just teasing, However, id like a source for the statement too please.


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## Akh1112

kursed said:


> Asst. Sct, State my bad, not Pompeo.
> 
> View attachment 664242
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Update on U.S. Security Cooperation and Defense Trade - United States Department of State
> 
> 
> Assistant Secretary R. Clarke Cooper discusses the latest developments in U.S. security assistance, defense trade, peacekeeping capacity building and humanitarian mine action. This includes recent historic sales to the Indo-Pacific region, changes to the export policy for Unmanned Aerial...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.state.gov




That doesnt say what you said?


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## kursed

Akh1112 said:


> That doesnt say what you said?









Other than spares, Pakistan is not getting anything more from the US. There might be some minor upgrades, to some platforms, but certainly no 'secret' sales of F-16 V/70/72 to Pakistan or hidden transfers of AH1Zs.

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## ziaulislam

kursed said:


> View attachment 664297
> 
> 
> Other than spares, Pakistan is not getting anything more from the US. There might be some minor upgrades, to some platforms, but certainly no 'secret' sales of F-16 V/70/72 to Pakistan or hidden transfers of AH1Zs.


Not yet but conditions are most favourable so you never know


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## kursed

ziaulislam said:


> Not yet but conditions are most favourable so you never know


We’d find out post-elections.


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## araz

kursed said:


> We’d find out post-elections.


I dont want to sound bleak but the likelihood of US arms sales to Pak is becoming less and less likely. The alliance with China is increasingly bring us at loggerheads with the US. Nothing overt will be done but underneath they will punish us-any which way they can.
A
A

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## kursed

araz said:


> I dont want to sound bleak but the likelihood of US arms sales to Pak is becoming less and less likely. The alliance with China is increasingly bring us at loggerheads with the US. Nothing overt will be done but underneath they will punish us-any which way they can.
> A
> A


I agree.


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## Akh1112

kursed said:


> View attachment 664297
> 
> 
> Other than spares, Pakistan is not getting anything more from the US. There might be some minor upgrades, to some platforms, but certainly no 'secret' sales of F-16 V/70/72 to Pakistan or hidden transfers of AH1Zs.




Well, no, nobody said the latter. At all. In fact, the US is still supplying the forces with key components for upcoming projects, i.e J-Class.

Also, that statement still does not support your claim. In fact, the same speech something was said about potential to grow into a closer relationship like there once was.


araz said:


> I dont want to sound bleak but the likelihood of US arms sales to Pak is becoming less and less likely. The alliance with China is increasingly bring us at loggerheads with the US. Nothing overt will be done but underneath they will punish us-any which way they can.
> A
> A




The thing is, Arms buy influence. If the US wants to, the best way to keep us from falling too deep into China's arms is to grab us by the balls and use weapons to control us. Selling us new weapons opens up that door for the US.

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## Enigma SIG

Akh1112 said:


> The thing is, Arms buy influence. If the US wants to, the best way to keep us from falling too deep into China's arms is to grab us by the balls and use weapons to control us. Selling us new weapons opens up that door for the US.


They don't want to do that without us footing the bill. No purchases from CSF.


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## kursed

Akh1112 said:


> Well, no, nobody said the latter. At all. In fact, the US is still supplying the forces with key components for upcoming projects, i.e J-Class.
> 
> Also, that statement still does not support your claim. In fact, the same speech something was said about potential to grow into a closer relationship like there once was.



I called it a non-statement, you can read it any which way. Wake me up, once you see big ticket items being notified, I’m not holding my breath for it.

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## PakFactor

Was


kursed said:


> Asst. Sct, State my bad, not Pompeo.
> 
> View attachment 664242
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Update on U.S. Security Cooperation and Defense Trade - United States Department of State
> 
> 
> Assistant Secretary R. Clarke Cooper discusses the latest developments in U.S. security assistance, defense trade, peacekeeping capacity building and humanitarian mine action. This includes recent historic sales to the Indo-Pacific region, changes to the export policy for Unmanned Aerial...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.state.gov



This is a wishy washy statement with no value to it what so ever --

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## Windjammer



Reactions: Like Like:
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## mshan44



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## Imran Khan

The Maverick said:


> Love the remark by pompeo that.
> We need to see all extremists elements erridalicated regardless of your posturing in the region .
> 
> In simple English play ball with USA and it's strategic interests and we may provide spares door could be open.
> 
> Otherwise no can do .
> 
> This is the Indian lobby at work they have denied your f16 upgrade. Their influence in wide and deep especially the Indian origin rich in USA giving USA India relations big lift .
> 
> You may have to rely on China only
> Shame cause the mirage series have best record in paf service and the f16 is mist capable platform


USA can go F her self imran khan already told loud and clear 

our future is with china

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## Windjammer

The Maverick said:


> Love the remark by pompeo that.
> We need to see all extremists elements erridalicated regardless of your posturing in the region .
> 
> In simple English play ball with USA and it's strategic interests and we may provide spares door could be open.
> 
> Otherwise no can do .
> 
> This is the Indian lobby at work they have denied your f16 upgrade. Their influence in wide and deep especially the Indian origin rich in USA giving USA India relations big lift .
> 
> You may have to rely on China only
> Shame cause the mirage series have best record in paf service and the f16 is mist capable platform


If you were chocolate, you would eat your self....you are quoting a person who is not even power yet and rest assured your wet dreams will get shattered.....for now ask your so called rich lobby to try and persuade America to save your neck in Ladakh.....and just remember how even the 8 F-16s caused you to go suicidal.

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## ghazi52



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## The Maverick

Windjammer said:


> If you were chocolate, you would eat your self....you are quoting a person who is not even power yet and rest assured your wet dreams will get shattered.....for now ask your so called rich lobby to try and persuade America to save your neck in Ladakh.....and just remember how even the 8 F-16s caused you to go suicidal.



Those F16 will be useless without American support and technicians AND please spare me the Turks will do this that and other. Even Turkey relys on massive USA suport for its USA military hardware.

Your USA hardware could well be compromised but you only have to yourselves to blame from your mistakes be it OBL or the terror support for Banned groups as you ty to pursue your local South Asian Agenda,

You could certainly have balanced it better AND i am sure today you would have 36 block 52 NOT 18
And the other 55 legacy platforms would have got the MLU that many other nations are benefiting from and paid by USA tax payer in the main.

I know HOW important the F16 is in your PAF pysche. Deemed to be your finest PLATFORM even today .

When Swift resort took place it was F16 that LED THE CHARGE .

ITS is YOUR spearhead

You really need 36 block 70 soon but the chances are next to zero

BY THE WAY its the one that IAF FEAR.

In any war that meaningful in future between IAF V PAF the indians have always concluded break the F16 fleet you win the air battle .

THAT MAY CHANGE with BLOCK 3 , will see 


.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> If you were chocolate, you would eat your self....you are quoting a person who is not even power yet and rest assured your wet dreams will get shattered.....for now ask your so called rich lobby to try and persuade America to save your neck in Ladakh.....and just remember how even the 8 F-16s caused you to go suicidal.


Or third hand13 used F-16A/Bs....they made a lot of noise on that too....

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## Tamiyah

The Maverick said:


> Those F16 will be useless without American support and technicians AND please spare me the Turks will do this that and other. Even Turkey relys on massive USA suport for its USA military hardware.
> 
> Your USA hardware could well be compromised but you only have to yourselves to blame from your mistakes be it OBL or the terror support for Banned groups as you ty to pursue your local South Asian Agenda,
> 
> You could certainly have balanced it better AND i am sure today you would have 36 block 52 NOT 18
> And the other 55 legacy platforms would have got the MLU that many other nations are benefiting from and paid by USA tax payer in the main.
> 
> I know HOW important the F16 is in your PAF pysche. Deemed to be your finest PLATFORM even today .
> 
> When Swift resort took place it was F16 that LED THE CHARGE .
> 
> ITS is YOUR spearhead
> 
> You really need 36 block 70 soon but the chances are next to zero
> 
> BY THE WAY its the one that IAF FEAR.
> 
> In any war that meaningful in future between IAF V PAF the indians have always concluded break the F16 fleet you win the air battle .
> 
> THAT MAY CHANGE with BLOCK 3 , will see
> 
> 
> .


So what are you trying to prove here?


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## khanasifm

In te res. Ting 








Over 200 Guard And Reserve F-16s Can Now Carry The Dragon's Eye Radar Pod


The pod offers a bolt-on advanced radar that can scan from the sides of the jet, allowing it to do things even an advanced nose-mounted radar can't.




www.thedrive.com

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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> Those F16 will be useless without American support and technicians AND please spare me the Turks will do this that and other. Even Turkey relys on massive USA suport for its USA military hardware.
> 
> Your USA hardware could well be compromised but you only have to yourselves to blame from your mistakes be it OBL or the terror support for Banned groups as you ty to pursue your local South Asian Agenda,
> 
> You could certainly have balanced it better AND i am sure today you would have 36 block 52 NOT 18
> And the other 55 legacy platforms would have got the MLU that many other nations are benefiting from and paid by USA tax payer in the main.
> 
> I know HOW important the F16 is in your PAF pysche. Deemed to be your finest PLATFORM even today .
> 
> When Swift resort took place it was F16 that LED THE CHARGE .
> 
> ITS is YOUR spearhead
> 
> You really need 36 block 70 soon but the chances are next to zero
> 
> BY THE WAY its the one that IAF FEAR.
> 
> In any war that meaningful in future between IAF V PAF the indians have always concluded break the F16 fleet you win the air battle .
> 
> THAT MAY CHANGE with BLOCK 3 , will see
> 
> 
> .



Did you just literally troll yourself? Are you actually Pakistani pretending to be Indian in order to make Indians look stupid? You are actually arguing over what type of Pakistani jet shot down India's planes. You do realise just how amusing this has now become right?


----------



## Imran Khan

The Maverick said:


> Those F16 will be useless without American support and technicians AND please spare me the Turks will do this that and other. Even Turkey relys on massive USA suport for its USA military hardware.
> 
> Your USA hardware could well be compromised but you only have to yourselves to blame from your mistakes be it OBL or the terror support for Banned groups as you ty to pursue your local South Asian Agenda,
> 
> You could certainly have balanced it better AND i am sure today you would have 36 block 52 NOT 18
> And the other 55 legacy platforms would have got the MLU that many other nations are benefiting from and paid by USA tax payer in the main.
> 
> I know HOW important the F16 is in your PAF pysche. Deemed to be your finest PLATFORM even today .
> 
> When Swift resort took place it was F16 that LED THE CHARGE .
> 
> ITS is YOUR spearhead
> 
> You really need 36 block 70 soon but the chances are next to zero
> 
> BY THE WAY its the one that IAF FEAR.
> 
> In any war that meaningful in future between IAF V PAF the indians have always concluded break the F16 fleet you win the air battle .
> 
> THAT MAY CHANGE with BLOCK 3 , will see
> 
> 
> .


we dont need anymore US support nor we need more equipment from them . our future is block-3 and azm now not f-16

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## Signalian

kursed said:


> Asst. Sct, State my bad, not Pompeo.
> 
> View attachment 664242
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Update on U.S. Security Cooperation and Defense Trade - United States Department of State
> 
> 
> Assistant Secretary R. Clarke Cooper discusses the latest developments in U.S. security assistance, defense trade, peacekeeping capacity building and humanitarian mine action. This includes recent historic sales to the Indo-Pacific region, changes to the export policy for Unmanned Aerial...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.state.gov


USA runs after its interests and that is what the deals with USA are about. He has mentioned the Taliban in Afghanistan, this is where USA's interest lies and since Afghanistan shares border with Pakistan, if Pakistan plays its cards correctly a deal can be struck with USA. The issue still remains that after USA's interest disappears, then will PAF be able to maintain its fleet ? Back in 1990's, Pakistan did not scrap the atomic progress but gave up on F-16s. Today PAF has JF-17, therefore the absolute necessity to acquire F-16s versus USA interests has diminished. This give and take situation will USA will continue and its up to Pakistan and USA to broker deals via diplomatic moves. PAF should however follow up on replacements for crashed or lost F-16s. Can't say for sure, if replacements were part of contract. Replacements could be used F-16 A/B Block 15 or Block 20. The total number of F-16s handed over to PAF is 85, which means that USA thinks that 85 are sufficient for PAF's needs. The usual BS is maintaining the balance of power in the region, the realistic version is where USA's interests rest and thats what spawns CSF payment as another hurdle.

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## Signalian

kursed said:


> 'secret' sales of F-16 V/70/72 to Pakistan or hidden transfers of AH1Zs.


I just hope that Pakistan doesn't have to pay the "parking fee" for already constructed AH-1Zs as it did for 28 embargoed F-16s in past.

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## Raider 21

Signalian said:


> USA runs after its interests and that is what the deals with USA are about. He has mentioned the Taliban in Afghanistan, this is where USA's interest lies and since Afghanistan shares border with Pakistan, if Pakistan plays its cards correctly a deal can be struck with USA. The issue still remains that after USA's interest disappears, then will PAF be able to maintain its fleet ? Back in 1990's, Pakistan did not scrap the atomic progress but gave up on F-16s. Today PAF has JF-17, therefore the absolute necessity to acquire F-16s versus USA interests has diminished. This give and take situation will USA will continue and its up to Pakistan and USA to broker deals via diplomatic moves. PAF should however follow up on replacements for crashed or lost F-16s. Can't say for sure, if replacements were part of contract. Replacements could be used F-16 A/B Block 15 or Block 20. The total number of F-16s handed over to PAF is 85, which means that USA thinks that 85 are sufficient for PAF's needs. The usual BS is maintaining the balance of power in the region, the realistic version is where USA's interests rest and thats what spawns CSF payment as another hurdle.


Replacements were only possible during delivery flights. When GD and USAF flew the initial Vipers over to Saudi Arabia in the 1980s before being handed over to PAF pilots, the condition was that if one was to crash then they'd replace it. The second leg was manned entirely by PAF pilots, if any crashes were to occur then that was on PAF. 

The US interests will be there, and there will also be Pakistan's interests. Used C/D models would be better, A/B parts are reducing. More Vipers would always be useful, at least 2 more squadrons would be good.

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## ghazi52



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## mshan44



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## mshan44



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## Windjammer



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## ziaulislam

The Maverick said:


> Those F16 will be useless without American support and technicians AND please spare me the Turks will do this that and other. Even Turkey relys on massive USA suport for its USA military hardware.
> 
> Your USA hardware could well be compromised but you only have to yourselves to blame from your mistakes be it OBL or the terror support for Banned groups as you ty to pursue your local South Asian Agenda,
> 
> You could certainly have balanced it better AND i am sure today you would have 36 block 52 NOT 18
> And the other 55 legacy platforms would have got the MLU that many other nations are benefiting from and paid by USA tax payer in the main.
> 
> I know HOW important the F16 is in your PAF pysche. Deemed to be your finest PLATFORM even today .
> 
> When Swift resort took place it was F16 that LED THE CHARGE .
> 
> ITS is YOUR spearhead
> 
> You really need 36 block 70 soon but the chances are next to zero
> 
> BY THE WAY its the one that IAF FEAR.
> 
> In any war that meaningful in future between IAF V PAF the indians have always concluded break the F16 fleet you win the air battle .
> 
> THAT MAY CHANGE with BLOCK 3 , will see
> 
> 
> .


Break it with what?
We know what happened last time when IAF made a assumption it wasnt pretty
Conviently ingnoring 8 squardons of PL-15 equiped jf17 which what pakistan thinks is its leading aresenal is good for us..
Pakistan was broke in 1990 its gdp was just 50b$, debt was >100% and it was under IMF yet it paid 4b$ in advance for f16 under benazir/nawaz ..then pakistan had no alternative and china was poor

Today US senate said buy f16s and pakistan walked away despite the bill being just 699 million dollars what does this tells u. PAF doesnt think f16s are worth the full unsubidized price
Once PAF thinks it needs a few it will just go and buy the comoditized block 70 which is now rhe standardized version available to pakistan (provided we foot the 70m/unit price tag)
My guess is PAF wont buy it on full paid price without CSF.

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## Raider 21

ziaulislam said:


> Break it with what?
> We know what happened last time when IAF made a assumption it wasnt pretty
> Conviently ingnoring 8 squardons of PL-15 equiped jf17 which what pakistan thinks is its leading aresenal is good for us..
> Pakistan was broke in 1990 its gdp was just 50b$, debt was >100% and it was under IMF yet it paid 4b$ in advance for f16 under benazir/nawaz ..then pakistan had no alternative and china was poor
> 
> Today US senate said buy f16s and pakistan walked away despite the bill being just 699 million dollars what does this tells u. PAF doesnt think f16s are worth the full unsubidized price
> Once PAF thinks it needs a few it will just go and buy the comoditized block 70 which is now rhe standardized version available to pakistan (provided we foot the 70m/unit price tag)
> My guess is PAF wont buy it on full paid price without CSF.


The whole idea for the CSF filter is that Pakistan has been dragged into an unconventional war due to the US, having suffered the most casualties. Getting Vipers via CSF should be the only option they'd pursue as it would allow not only for more jets but free training.

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## mshan44



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## Windjammer

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=344473356916547

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## Dazzler

The Maverick said:


> Those F16 will be useless without American support and technicians AND please spare me the Turks will do this that and other. Even Turkey relys on massive USA suport for its USA military hardware.
> 
> Your USA hardware could well be compromised but you only have to yourselves to blame from your mistakes be it OBL or the terror support for Banned groups as you ty to pursue your local South Asian Agenda,
> 
> You could certainly have balanced it better AND i am sure today you would have 36 block 52 NOT 18
> And the other 55 legacy platforms would have got the MLU that many other nations are benefiting from and paid by USA tax payer in the main.
> 
> I know HOW important the F16 is in your PAF pysche. Deemed to be your finest PLATFORM even today .
> 
> When Swift resort took place it was F16 that LED THE CHARGE .
> 
> ITS is YOUR spearhead
> 
> You really need 36 block 70 soon but the chances are next to zero
> 
> BY THE WAY its the one that IAF FEAR.
> 
> In any war that meaningful in future between IAF V PAF the indians have always concluded break the F16 fleet you win the air battle .
> 
> THAT MAY CHANGE with BLOCK 3 , will see
> 
> 
> .



Really? Well, add this to your shattered dreams

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## The Maverick

Dazzler said:


> Really? Well, add this to your shattered dreams
> 
> View attachment 668676



CANT SEE ANY PAF marking 
must be new order for Taiwan or UAE etc.

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## Tamiyah

The Maverick said:


> CANT SEE ANY PAF marking
> must be new order for Taiwan or UAE etc.


Your ignorance is on another level.

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## Philip the Arab

Dazzler said:


> Really? Well, add this to your shattered dreams
> 
> View attachment 668676


My friend, Turkey does assembly and everything they do needs American approval.

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## Rehan khan 1

look at


The Maverick said:


> CANT SEE ANY PAF marking
> must be new order for Taiwan or UAE etc.


vertical stabiliser say griffins No.9 of PAF

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## Zulfiqar

The Maverick said:


> CANT SEE ANY PAF marking
> must be new order for Taiwan or UAE etc.




This aircraft was repaired inhouse after own bomb damage (during a strike on TTP). They yellow paint shows the area which was repaired/replaced.

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## Tamiyah

Zulfiqar said:


> This aircraft was repaired inhouse after own bomb damage (during a strike on TTP). They yellow paint shows the area which was repaired/replaced.


Don't waste your precious time on someone who don't want to listen the truth. He just want to live in his delusional world.


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## Imran Khan

The Maverick said:


> CANT SEE ANY PAF marking
> must be new order for Taiwan or UAE etc.

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## The Maverick

Imran Khan said:


>




Your F16 are excellent you dont need to convince me 
thank god Mushraff & Co screwed up your relations of USA and you ended up in china,s laps.

We wll take on PAF with chinase fighters ALL DAY 

F16 is a head ache ,,,,,,,,,,,,,thank god you only have 18 block 52 the rest are vintage legacy planes with some MLU kit added.

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## Imran Khan

The Maverick said:


> Your F16 are excellent you dont need to convince me
> thank god Mushraff & Co screwed up your relations of USA and you ended up in china,s laps.
> 
> We wll take on PAF with chinase fighters ALL DAY
> 
> F16 is a head ache ,,,,,,,,,,,,,thank god you only have 18 block 52 the rest are vintage legacy planes with some MLU kit added.



that f-16 is Pakistani from ser#82602 from griffins .
and we are greatful of all those whom take us away from devil USA . we salute all those whom save us from curse of USA and AID .

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## Blacklight

The Maverick said:


> CANT SEE ANY PAF marking
> must be new order for Taiwan or UAE etc.


Done trolling, or is there more?

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## PakShaheen79

Windjammer said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=344473356916547


WoW! The brute force of PW power plant in fully display. One area where F-16 will remain ahead of everything PAF will get in foreseeable future.

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## Rahil khan

The Maverick said:


> Your F16 are excellent you dont need to convince me
> thank god Mushraff & Co screwed up your relations of USA and you ended up in china,s laps.
> 
> We wll take on PAF with chinase fighters ALL DAY
> 
> F16 is a head ache ,,,,,,,,,,,,,thank god you only have 18 block 52 the rest are vintage legacy planes with some MLU kit added.


We all can understand your pain bro. Perhaps you should know that the block building approach concept of F-16s has ensured its airframe life to be extended from 8000 hours to 16000 hours, credit goes to Turkish Aeronautical Complex who made structural enhancements. Those "Some MLU Added Kits" include
1. APG-68(V)9 radars.
2. Joint Helmet Mounted Cuing System JHMCS .
3. Advanced Countermeasures Dispenser Systems.
4. Advanced Identify Friend or Foe Systems.
5. Multi functional Information Distribution System.
6. Sniper Targeting Pods.
7. Electronic Warfare Management Systems .
8. Quick I/II Radios .
10. Additional hardpoints for AMRAAMS.

Thanx to the upgrades, 45 jets were upgraded to block 50 standard. Furthermore, Uncle Sam provided PAF 500 AMRAAMS to ensure the regional balance and security. You can troll and cry all day...but the fact of the matter is that PAF has transformed from the struggling technology using force of the 90s or early 2000s, to a technology developing force of 2020. Just wait for another decade and your planners at Delhi would again initiate peace talks. Guaranteed.

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## ziaulislam

The Maverick said:


> Your F16 are excellent you dont need to convince me
> thank god Mushraff & Co screwed up your relations of USA and you ended up in china,s laps.
> 
> We wll take on PAF with chinase fighters ALL DAY
> 
> F16 is a head ache ,,,,,,,,,,,,,thank god you only have 18 block 52 the rest are vintage legacy planes with some MLU kit added.


wait, i heard before 2018 you use to say mig21 is great and f16 is vintage junk..
lol wait for next feb 2019 wake up call when PL-15 outguns everything you have

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## The Maverick

ziaulislam said:


> wait, i heard before 2018 you use to say mig21 is great and f16 is vintage junk..
> lol wait for next feb 2019 wake up call when PL-15 outguns everything you have



One mistake you like all Pakistanis keep making the effectiveness of bvr is not based on range only far more important is kill probability and that is determined by several.factors like no escape zone stealth and jammers and counter jammers in other words electronic warfare .


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## Metal 0-1

The Maverick said:


> CANT SEE ANY PAF marking
> must be new order for Taiwan or UAE etc.


More Detailed article..








The Story of PAF Pilot who managed to land a damaged F-16 fighter jet - Fighter Jets World


In 2014 Pakistan launched Operation Zarb-e-Azb a joint military offensive conducted by the Pak




fighterjetsworld.com





*The Story of PAF Pilot who managed to land a damaged F-16 fighter jet*


In 2014 Pakistan launched Operation Zarb-e-Azb a joint military offensive conducted by the Pakistan Armed Forces against various militant groups, including the Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP), the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, al-Qaeda, Jundallah and the Haqqani network.

On 15 June 2014, the first phase of the operation began with intensified airstrikes in North Waziristan, targeting militant training facilities, hideouts, and other infrastructure


On 22nd July 2014 at 8 pm two Pakistan Air Force pilots *Group Captain Azman Khaleel* and *Squadron Leader Asim* took off in F-16B (Serial# 82602) from PAF Base Mushaf to conduct an airstrike on terrorist Hideout.


 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoXq3J-tdoA&feature=youtu.be
*GoPro Video of Group Captain Azman Khaleel Flying F-16*


After reaching the target location pilot dropped a Joint Direct Attack Munition(JDAM) bomb on Terrorist Hideout.

Soon after the launched due to some technical issue the bomb immediately exploded in the air and caused extensive damage to the Fighter jet

F-16 Fighter Jet went out of control into a spin manoeuvre and was quickly descending toward the ground. Group Captain Azman Khaleel who was on the backseat didn’t panicked and took the control of Fighter jet from Sq Ldr Asim. Skilled pilot Immediately took corrective action and was able to take fighter jet out of the uncontrolled spin manoeuvre




*Squadron Leader Azman Khalil of the Pakistani air force left goes overflight information with Air Force Capt. Andy Wittke, an instructor pilot at the Arizona Air National Guard’s 162nd Fighter Wing, before a training mission April 27, 2010. U.S. Air Force photo by Master Sgt. Dave Neve*

After taking control he realized that due to Hydraulic and Fuel leakage its impossible fly fighter jet back to PAF Base Mushaf. So he turned fighter jet toward nearest Airfield and requested PAF Base M.M. Alam for an emergency landing
After reaching PAF Base M.M. Alam he tried to land F-16 fighter but during landing, he realized that fighter Jet throttle system is failed and F-16 is not slowing down.
To counter this situation he took off again and contacted Air traffic controller. He informed ATC about the whole situation and requested them to arrange Aircraft arresting barriers
After circling Airfield he made a second attempted to land damaged F-16. He was able to successfully land the F-16 at the Starting of Runway. After that F-16 started moving toward the barrier and with the help of an Aircraft arresting barrier pilot was able to stop fighter jet
The pilot ordered the maintenance crew and technician to turn off F-16 engine from outside.




For this action in aerial combat, he was awarded the Tamgha-I-Basalat by Pakistan. Here is a video of Group Captain Azman Khaleel receiving Tamgha-I-Basalat and sharing his experience. Unfortuenly Video is in Urdu

Later PAF engineers locally reworked, refitted and repaired damaged F-16 and nowadays F-16B (Serial# 82602) flying. Here is an Image of F-16




Group Captain Azman Khaleel has also piloted Saudi Arabian Air Force F-15 Fighter Jet

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/921037917262360576

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## Ali_Baba

The Maverick said:


> One mistake you like all Pakistanis keep making the effectiveness of bvr is not based on range only far more important is kill probability and that is determined by several.factors like no escape zone stealth and jammers and counter jammers in other words electronic warfare .



Nice words, as always with people from India. The execution of those words tends to be somewhat different, dont you think?

A Su30MKI and a Mig21 were both shot down by PAF in a BVR fight because IAF did not heed the wisdom of your words.

It is obvious that PAF has better BVR systems and associated tactics than IAF, despite the 20+ lead that India has in this field! Go figure that one out ..

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## mshan44



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## Mig hunter

The Maverick said:


> CANT SEE ANY PAF marking
> must be new order for Taiwan or UAE etc.


Look at the tail you will see it

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## Blacklight

Philip the Arab said:


> My friend, Turkey does assembly and everything they do needs American approval.


You are Right, but this was done in Pakistan, not Turkey.

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## Windjammer

Mirages are said to be the fastest aircraft in PAF inventory....Wonder how would they come out in WVR Combat.

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## Ali_Baba

Windjammer said:


> Mirages are said to be the fastest aircraft in PAF inventory....Wonder how would they come out in WVR Combat.
> 
> 
> View attachment 669180



They have been the fastest aircraft in PAF, but that was many moons ago, you have to wonder how much of that capability still exists in such old airframes and what the confidence level of the pilots is to try and extract that level of performance for fear of the airframe breaking apart in mid-flight, or the engines exploding on them .... would you "rag" a car that is that old in car years and expect it to behave the same as it did when it left the show room...

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Mirages are said to be the fastest aircraft in PAF inventory....Wonder how would they come out in WVR Combat.
> 
> 
> View attachment 669180


Maximum speed doesn't matter much after the aircrafts have merged but yes things like Corner velocity play crucial role along with other factors



Ali_Baba said:


> They have been the fastest aircraft in PAF, but that was many moons ago, you have to wonder how much of that capability still exists in such old airframes and what the confidence level of the pilots is to try and extract that level of performance for fear of the airframe breaking apart in mid-flight, or the engines exploding on them .... would you "rag" a car that is that old in car years and expect it to behave the same as it did when it left the show room...


Wait what? Mirages still take part in dogfights everyday and they still sometimes beat advanced jets like JF-17 and F-16s.

They practice Anti Bvr tactics to get in a Wvr fight and then engage the Red aircraft.

Dont even think that if these jets have gotten old PAF doesn't use them for dogfights.

Yes of course in an actual mission Mirage might have a role of Hit and Run but in routine flights they are flown all types of missions..

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## PanzerKiel

Windjammer said:


> Mirages are said to be the fastest aircraft in PAF inventory....Wonder how would they come out in WVR Combat.
> 
> 
> View attachment 669180


i have seen Mirages giving pretty tough time to F-16s in WVRs. Both in real and simulators. Again, several years ago, i flew alot on simulators against PAF pilots, my obvious choice always used to be Mirage in a dogfight.....and i used to be pretty good against F-16s.

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## Blacklight

PanzerKiel said:


> i have seen Mirages giving pretty tough time to F-16s in WVRs. Both in real and simulators. Again, several years ago, i flew alot on simulators against PAF pilots, my obvious choice always used to be Mirage in a dogfight.....and i used to be pretty good against F-16s.


This often makes me wonder, what would have happened had we gotten Mirage 2000's

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blacklight said:


> This often makes me wonder, what would have happened had we gotten Mirage 2000's


It depends on when.

If it had been in the 1980s instead of the F-16s (i.e., when Carter offered to convince the French to release a line-of-credit for the M2K), that would've likely been it. The PAF would be flying around 100 M2K/-5s.

If it had been in the 1990s, then I think we would've ultimately killed the Super-7 project. The M2K/-5 was a very expensive platform, so bankrolling it wasn't trivial. That said, because we would have nixed the Super-7, we would've likely asked the Chinese for the J-10A to replace our F-7Ps (thanks to the M2K-5 there'd prob be no F-7PG either). 

If it had been the used M2K-5 offer of the early 2000s, then those fighters would've likely been our strike unit -- complementing the F-16s and JF-17s. The ASR at that time was basically, 30-40 strike fighters, 100-odd F-16 Blk-52 & MLU, and 150-200 JF-17s.

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## ziaulislam

The Maverick said:


> One mistake you like all Pakistanis keep making the effectiveness of bvr is not based on range only far more important is kill probability and that is determined by several.factors like no escape zone stealth and jammers and counter jammers in other words electronic warfare .


Exactly this is where pl-15 excels with it superior aesa radar & pulse rocket engine something meteor doesnt has

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## StructE

Windjammer said:


> Mirages are said to be the fastest aircraft in PAF inventory....Wonder how would they come out in WVR Combat.
> 
> 
> View attachment 669180


Fastest in dive only, limited WVR capacity, best for A2G and interception role.


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## Reichmarshal

Mirage was the a.c. used to lure in the Indian jets on the 27th and once the iaf a.c. where in range, the mirages in question used their speed to exit the area. 
So to ans one of the members they still are the fastest a.c. in our inventory and drivers still have full confidence in their ability.

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## Trango Towers

Ali_Baba said:


> They have been the fastest aircraft in PAF, but that was many moons ago, you have to wonder how much of that capability still exists in such old airframes and what the confidence level of the pilots is to try and extract that level of performance for fear of the airframe breaking apart in mid-flight, or the engines exploding on them .... would you "rag" a car that is that old in car years and expect it to behave the same as it did when it left the show room...


If you had ever studies fatigue and fracture mechanics and how much aircraft are overdesigned in comparison to flight envelope stresses you wouldn't say that

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## Nomad40

its


Zulfiqar said:


> Question to you , @airomerix and @Raider 21
> 
> I have seen Azman sb wearing Anti G vest (similar to one below) in one of the videos. However, I don't see it normally being worn (at least in pictures).
> 
> Does the F-16 community use it in PAF or was it just a one off personal item?


Poopee suite


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## Raider 21

PanzerKiel said:


> i have seen Mirages giving pretty tough time to F-16s in WVRs. Both in real and simulators. Again, several years ago, i flew alot on simulators against PAF pilots, my obvious choice always used to be Mirage in a dogfight.....and i used to be pretty good against F-16s.


Those were probably mediocre F-16 pilots. I've heard Vipers are normally on the upper hand against Mirages in BFM.

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## Raider 21

Blacklight said:


> This often makes me wonder, what would have happened had we gotten Mirage 2000's


If without BVR, probably same result as the Soviet Afghan war. On a lighter note hopefully minus a friendly fire incident.

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## PanzerKiel

Raider 21 said:


> Those were probably mediocre F-16 pilots. I've heard Vipers are normally on the upper hand against Mirages in BFM.


They were good otherwise, obviously they went easy on me... an uncomplicated army man.

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## Nomad40

Raider 21 said:


> Those were probably mediocre F-16 pilots. I've heard Vipers are normally on the upper hand against Mirages in BFM.


There are no mediocre's in flying ---Either you know what you are doing to a high standard or you dont, Obviously with time and Experience one can be superior than the other----It all boils down to team work, situational awareness and aggression.

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## Nomad40

PanzerKiel said:


> i have seen Mirages giving pretty tough time to F-16s in WVRs. Both in real and simulators. Again, several years ago, i flew alot on simulators against PAF pilots, my obvious choice always used to be Mirage in a dogfight.....and i used to be pretty good against F-16s.


The answer is it depends----F-16 is known for agility and turning--the Mirage Not so much the only time I see a mirage 3-5 beating a F-16 is in a low-high energy stance where the Viper is low on energy and the Mirage is high and attacks within the turn circle and keep it between Lead and pure. Keep in mind that the Mirage will need to keep its distance.

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## PanzerKiel

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> only time I see a mirage 3-5 beating a F-16 is in a low-high energy stance where the Viper is low on energy and the Mirage is high and attacks within the turn circle and keep it between Lead and pure.


That's what used to happen.... The opportune time for Mirage to strike.... My love for deltas.

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## Nomad40

PanzerKiel said:


> That's what used to happen.... The opportune time for Mirage to strike.... My love for deltas.


Yes deltas are a sight of heaven I would love to own a delta some time when I am old.

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## denel

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> The answer is it depends----F-16 is known for agility and turning--the Mirage Not so much the only time I see a mirage 3-5 beating a F-16 is in a low-high energy stance where the Viper is low on energy and the Mirage is high and attacks within the turn circle and keep it between Lead and pure. Keep in mind that the Mirage will need to keep its distance.


M3's not good in turns vs F1's; F16s definitely they cannot out turn; again it is all up to tactics u adopt.

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## Nomad40

denel said:


> M3's not good in turns vs F1's; F16s definitely they cannot out turn; again it is all up to tactics u adopt.


Mirages are hit and run high speed high altitude the F-1 is a much better solution.

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## denel

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Mirages are hit and run high speed high altitude the F-1 is a much better solution.


Correct - shoot/scoot. We did the same in Angola. M3's were just purely for that purpose vs Mig23 there was a serious challenge; only F1AZ could take them on 1:1.
Looking back; F1s' should have been bought lock stock barrel.

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## Nomad40

denel said:


> Correct - shoot/scoot. We did the same in Angola. M3's were just purely for that purpose vs Mig23 there was a serious challenge; only F1AZ could take them on 1:1.
> Looking back; F1s' should have been bought lock stock barrel.


I dont know much about the Angola war I would be interested in the Air-Air component if you could shadow a little for me that would be greatly appreciated. Its sad to see Rhodesia begone like that was the attempt same for south africa.

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## PanzerKiel

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> I dont know much about the Angola war I would be interested in the Air-Air component if you could shadow a little for me that would be greatly appreciated. Its sad to see Rhodesia begone like that was the attempt same for south africa.


On a side note... 
Maybe not always in a real battle, but the Mirages have certainly taken over the F16 as far as the thread is concerned.

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## Nomad40

PanzerKiel said:


> On a side note...
> Maybe not always in a real battle, but the Mirages have certainly taken over the F16 as far as the thread is concerned.


It can be but not the majority times.

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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> Correct - shoot/scoot. We did the same in Angola. M3's were just purely for that purpose vs Mig23 there was a serious challenge; only F1AZ could take them on 1:1.
> Looking back; F1s' should have been bought lock stock barrel.



Hi,

You have the F1 in the form of the JF17's----a couple of 3 1/2 decades too late but it is here now---.

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## Raider 21

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> There are no mediocre's in flying ---Either you know what you are doing to a high standard or you dont, Obviously with time and Experience one can be superior than the other----It all boils down to team work, situational awareness and aggression.


I beg to differ on that first line, but that category that I go with is that the margin line is very slim between below average to bold aggressive. Some are natural, most require hard work and often hit a peak at a certain stage. Yet they are of some quality at least to be flying Vipers.

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## Windjammer

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> You have the F1 in the form of the JF17's----a couple of 3 1/2 decades too late but it is here now---.


You never give up do you.....suppose the Mirage F-1s enjoyed a BVR capability from onset and French were willing to set up a production plant in Pakistan.

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## Windjammer

*JF-17s Have Gradually Taken Over F-16s For CAPs Duities in Several Sectors.*

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## Nomad40

@MastanKhan you Bucko you are doing the same mistakes as them pajeets and I am loving it.

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## MastanKhan

Windjammer said:


> You never give up do you.....suppose the Mirage F-1s enjoyed a BVR capability from onset and French were willing to set up a production plant in Pakistan.



Hi,

They were---.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Windjammer said:


> You never give up do you.....suppose the Mirage F-1s enjoyed a BVR capability from onset and French were willing to set up a production plant in Pakistan.


When the PAF was exploring Project Sabre II, Dassault offered to set-up the Mirage F-1 line in Pakistan with a huge stockpile of ATAR turbojet engines.

Not sure if the PAF could've gotten new BVRAAMs from France, but it could've secured the R-Darter via South Africa (alongside H-2/H-4 and MUPSOW).

Basically, we'd have BVR and SOW in the 1990s, before Kargil.

And if the US still opts to sanction us over our nuclear program, we could've worked with South Africa to integrate the RD-33 to the F-1 and use a 'Super F-1' as an early 4th gen fighter in the 2000s and 2010s.

With that early exposure to aircraft design and integration, we may have started AZM in 1997, and have a FGFA prototype right now (after going through 20 years of R&D work, tech demonstrator work, etc).

The problem with us Pakistanis is that we daydream about how to excel individually, but not about nation-building, elevating our people, etc.

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> When the PAF was exploring Project Sabre II, Dassault offered to set-up the Mirage F-1 line in Pakistan with a huge stockpile of ATAR turbojet engines.
> 
> Not sure if the PAF could've gotten new BVRAAMs from France, but it could've secured the R-Darter via South Africa (alongside H-2/H-4 and MUPSOW).
> 
> Basically, we'd have BVR and SOW in the 1990s, before Kargil.
> 
> And if the US still opts to sanction us over our nuclear program, we could've worked with South Africa to integrate the RD-33 to the F-1 and use a 'Super F-1' as an early 4th gen fighter in the 2000s and 2010s.
> 
> With that early exposure to aircraft design and integration, we may have started AZM in 1997, and have a FGFA prototype right now (after going through 20 years of R&D work, tech demonstrator work, etc).
> 
> The problem with us Pakistanis is that we daydream about how to excel individually, but not about nation-building, elevating our people, etc.


Not sure if we would have started AZM in the 90s just because of building F-1s. More likey there would not be a JF-17 and we would still be building new F-1s now, a plane with no fbw and a turbojet engine. 
F-1 was a good fighter but was late in coming and had to compete against new 4th gen aircraft like the F-16 which was better in every respect, same as M2000.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

GriffinsRule said:


> Not sure if we would have started AZM in the 90s just because of building F-1s. More likey there would not be a JF-17 and we would still be building new F-1s now, a plane with no fbw and a turbojet engine.
> F-1 was a good fighter but was late in coming and had to compete against new 4th gen aircraft like the F-16 which was better in every respect, same as M2000.


Well, according to ACM Sohail Aman, the Saab 2000 repair work was a big reason why we decided to try AZM.

The way I saw it, a Mirage F-1 engine refit project likely would have required setting up a design and testing capacity to fully explore. Because we would've had the production line, Denel would've done the work in Pakistan and, in the process, given us a basis and interest for aircraft design by the late 1990s.

On that basis, we might have wanted to try our hand on aircraft design and development in 1999 instead of 2017.

It's not a wild leap. The South Africans decided to make a jump from early 3rd gen Mirages to the 4+ gen Carver in the 1980s. It didn't deliver because South Africa didn't have the long-term threat issue of India or the funding commitment we have for AZM. Heck, we might have well taken over the work of the Carver as a starting point.

The possibility that we could've been working with the Project Carver and Cheetah engineers at that point (via a RD-93-ed 'Super F-1'), we may have worked on our own FBW tech, composites tech, etc, through the 2000s and 2010s.

As for the F-1 itself. The airframe is old, but Morocco is actually rocking JF-17 Block-2 level radar, avionics and weapons (incl. compatibility with MICA).

So, it may be under-powered (though maybe not if we swap the engine -- which the PAF did ask for, by the way, with the F-1), but more than serviceable. And a mainstay fleet of F-1s wouldn't preclude the possibility of a few M2K-5s or Rafales for the 'edge' capability either.

Ultimately, we canned the F-1 idea (and Sabre II -- which was to give us a similar basis to be frank) not because of the inherent limitations of those designs, but because we threw our chips behind the F-16.

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## Windjammer

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> When the PAF was exploring Project Sabre II, Dassault offered to set-up the Mirage F-1 line in Pakistan with a huge stockpile of ATAR turbojet engines.
> 
> Not sure if the PAF could've gotten new BVRAAMs from France, but it could've secured the R-Darter via South Africa (alongside H-2/H-4 and MUPSOW).
> 
> Basically, we'd have BVR and SOW in the 1990s, before Kargil.
> 
> And if the US still opts to sanction us over our nuclear program, we could've worked with South Africa to integrate the RD-33 to the F-1 and use a 'Super F-1' as an early 4th gen fighter in the 2000s and 2010s.
> 
> With that early exposure to aircraft design and integration, we may have started AZM in 1997, and have a FGFA prototype right now (after going through 20 years of R&D work, tech demonstrator work, etc).
> 
> The problem with us Pakistanis is that we daydream about how to excel individually, but not about nation-building, elevating our people, etc.


I was aware of the ambitious and much publicised efforts to set up Mirage-3 production facilities in Pakistan in 70s, this was considered feasible as it would cater for many Arab Mirage operators during that era.
However same set up for Mirage F-1 is news for me.....not sure how was this possible after the processing plant debacle.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Windjammer said:


> I was aware of the ambitious and much publicised efforts to set up Mirage-3 production facilities in Pakistan in 70s, this was considered feasible as it would cater for many Arab Mirage operators during that era.
> However same set up for Mirage F-1 is news for me.....not sure how was this possible after the processing plant debacle.


Because it's unrelated. One was an issue re: nuclear weapons at a time when the US was unwilling to overlook it, the other is for a previous gen underpowered fighter at a time when the US was tolerating defence ties with Pakistan.

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## ziaulislam

Windjammer said:


> You never give up do you.....suppose the Mirage F-1s enjoyed a BVR capability from onset and French were willing to set up a production plant in Pakistan.


and assuming that french would have allowed us to upgrade further in early 2000s when it jump ship and went into indian camp..it wouldnt have..it would have been a disaster

PAF opted for something reliable the f7ps and then the super 7/jf17(which was in works in 1990s)

pakistan gdp was just 50b$ it did have money to go around and throw every where, we did have money for f16 or mirage 2000 our front role fighter


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> and assuming that french would have allowed us to upgrade further in early 2000s when it jump ship and went into indian camp..it wouldnt have..it would have been a disaster
> 
> PAF opted for something reliable the f7ps and then the super 7/jf17(which was in works in 1990s)
> 
> pakistan gdp was just 50b$ it did have money to go around and throw every where, we did have money for f16 or mirage 2000 our front role fighter


Well, when the French offered the F-1, they were done with that fighter. 

So, their interest in what we do or don't do with it was about as much as the Mirage III/5. The only difference is that by taking on a production capability, we may have been able to design and implement the electronics upgrade on our own. 

Otherwise, I don't think they would've stopped us from BVR-ing the F-1s, just as they didn't (or couldn't) prevent us fitting the Mirage III/5 with H-2/H-4 and Ra'ad.

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Well, when the French offered the F-1, they were done with that fighter.
> 
> So, their interest in what we do or don't do with it was about as much as the Mirage III/5. The only difference is that by taking on a production capability, we may have been able to design and implement the electronics upgrade on our own.
> 
> Otherwise, I don't think they would've stopped us from BVR-ing the F-1s, just as they didn't (or couldn't) prevent us fitting the Mirage III/5 with H-2/H-4 and Ra'ad.


would have still been an inferior design to super 7 with no further support creating critical part issues from engines to sub assemblies leading it become like mirage V dysfunctional(which is flying thanks to us window shopping virtually every mirage we can ind).
we could not have done both the jf17 and f1..we had to choose


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> would have still been an inferior design to super 7 with no further support creating critical part issues from engines to sub assemblies leading it become like mirage V dysfunctional(which is flying thanks to us window shopping virtually every mirage we can ind).
> we could not have done both the jf17 and f1..we had to choose


The F-1 was the alternative option to the JF-17. However, my point was that we could've gotten and used it through the 1990s and 2000s. The production experience earlier on would've given us the base for our next-gen fighter program much earlier, so we could've started AZM in 1999 or even 2009.

As for supporting the F-1. It's a self-imposed limitation. We could've collaborated with the South Africans to build new parts if necessary. The advantage of working with an older gen design is that the learning curve is much flatter, so we could've gotten to it quicker and cheaper. South Africa was even designing a re-engine program with the RD-93 for the F-1.

The strategic impact of the F-1 would've been different too. 

If we had the "grit" mentality in the early 1990s, then we would've worked to equip the Mirages (F-1/III/V) with BVR and SOW much earlier (not wait on the US for F-16s). Imagine having 100-150 BVR and SOW-equipped fighters by Kargil. 

We would've been building fighters by 2000, so the capacity to move onto an NGFA could've come sooner -- 10-15 years earlier than AZM. Right now, we'd be talking about AZM's first prototype (or even small batch production), not blurry concepts.

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## mshan44



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## MastanKhan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> When the PAF was exploring Project Sabre II, Dassault offered to set-up the Mirage F-1 line in Pakistan with a huge stockpile of ATAR turbojet engines.
> 
> Not sure if the PAF could've gotten new BVRAAMs from France, but it could've secured the R-Darter via South Africa (alongside H-2/H-4 and MUPSOW).
> 
> Basically, we'd have BVR and SOW in the 1990s, before Kargil.
> 
> And if the US still opts to sanction us over our nuclear program, we could've worked with South Africa to integrate the RD-33 to the F-1 and use a 'Super F-1' as an early 4th gen fighter in the 2000s and 2010s.
> 
> With that early exposure to aircraft design and integration, we may have started AZM in 1997, and have a FGFA prototype right now (after going through 20 years of R&D work, tech demonstrator work, etc).
> 
> The problem with us Pakistanis is that we daydream about how to excel individually, but not about nation-building, elevating our people, etc.



Hi,

Thank you for your post. If you have a rifle--you will find ways to get bullets for it. But you have to have a rifle first.

BVR capability was not an issue with the Paf at any stage during the 80's, 90's, or 2000.

Mirage F1 was the perfect aircraft to propel it to the 4/4.5/5th gen aircraft on a progressive scale of technology and technological advancements.

The F16 fetish of the Paf made them make bad decisions over the good ones.

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The F-1 was the alternative option to the JF-17. However, my point was that we could've gotten and used it through the 1990s and 2000s. The production experience earlier on would've given us the base for our next-gen fighter program much earlier, so we could've started AZM in 1999 or even 2009.
> 
> As for supporting the F-1. It's a self-imposed limitation. We could've collaborated with the South Africans to build new parts if necessary. The advantage of working with an older gen design is that the learning curve is much flatter, so we could've gotten to it quicker and cheaper. South Africa was even designing a re-engine program with the RD-93 for the F-1.
> 
> The strategic impact of the F-1 would've been different too.
> 
> If we had the "grit" mentality in the early 1990s, then we would've worked to equip the Mirages (F-1/III/V) with BVR and SOW much earlier (not wait on the US for F-16s). Imagine having 100-150 BVR and SOW-equipped fighters by Kargil.
> 
> We would've been building fighters by 2000, so the capacity to move onto an NGFA could've come sooner -- 10-15 years earlier than AZM. Right now, we'd be talking about AZM's first prototype (or even small batch production), not blurry concepts.


I completely support your argument. This would have lead to a strong base vs the assemblies that are in name only. F1 production if that option was exercised provided many turn key albiet from Atlas; SOW capabilities which eventually went to M3 via Cheetah as H2/H4. Similarly F1AZ by default had HMS from started with various Darter config. F1 was already capable of extensive upgrades not only on the airframe but technologically. French pursued M2K which is fine, this was a decent alternative if pursued would have given a very strong home advantage free of sanctions; like RM33 engine - been there done it; so many options were available but PAC/PAF never seem to get the head of out a chinese/US back hole (sorry for my language - it is imperative to call a dung a dung). In summary, a litany of lost opportunities and day dreaming. 
I fear that Azm and others programs may be just that dreams and never come to fruition as soon as F-16 carrot is dangled with kickbacks.

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thank you for your post. If you have a rifle--you will find ways to get bullets for it. But you have to have a rifle first.
> 
> BVR capability was not an issue with the Paf at any stage during the 80's, 90's, or 2000.
> 
> Mirage F1 was the perfect aircraft to propel it to the 4/4/5/5th gen aircraft on a progressive scale of technology and technological advancements.
> 
> The F16 fetish of the Paf made them make bad decisions over the good ones.


100% on the mark. F16 will continue to make them take bad decisions.

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## Irfan Baloch

respected gents
F-1 discussion deserves a separate section. we continue to revisit it and talk about lost opportunity due to PAF F-16 experience.

if you like I can move the F-1 related posts to a new thread? or if we want to continue to talk about F1 or other jets in reference to F-16 within this thread then I can leave it here.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @MastanKhan @denel


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## Raider 21

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The F-1 was the alternative option to the JF-17. However, my point was that we could've gotten and used it through the 1990s and 2000s. The production experience earlier on would've given us the base for our next-gen fighter program much earlier, so we could've started AZM in 1999 or even 2009.
> 
> As for supporting the F-1. It's a self-imposed limitation. We could've collaborated with the South Africans to build new parts if necessary. The advantage of working with an older gen design is that the learning curve is much flatter, so we could've gotten to it quicker and cheaper. South Africa was even designing a re-engine program with the RD-93 for the F-1.
> 
> The strategic impact of the F-1 would've been different too.
> 
> If we had the "grit" mentality in the early 1990s, then we would've worked to equip the Mirages (F-1/III/V) with BVR and SOW much earlier (not wait on the US for F-16s). Imagine having 100-150 BVR and SOW-equipped fighters by Kargil.
> 
> We would've been building fighters by 2000, so the capacity to move onto an NGFA could've come sooner -- 10-15 years earlier than AZM. Right now, we'd be talking about AZM's first prototype (or even small batch production), not blurry concepts.


How does the would've and could've translate to what is happening now. As the would've and could've never happened and it lies in the same theories basket.

Chances are with those would've and should've theories would have resulted in no AZM, and a probable chance of BVR-less capable Mirage F1s....

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Raider 21 said:


> How does the would've and could've translate to what is happening now. As the would've and could've never happened and it lies in the same theories basket.
> 
> Chances are with those would've and should've theories would have resulted in no AZM, and a probable chance of BVR-less capable Mirage F1s....


It helps us see where we went wrong, and how much time we've lost in the process. It sounds like a lot of 'hindsight' stuff, but if it didn't matter, the word "lesson" wouldn't exist. 

That entire episode was an example of us taking US ties for granted, not pushing our thought process beyond what was immediately apparent, and not leveraging all options in the absolute sense of the term. It also speaks to a culture of not questioning decisions, not inquiring why we didn't take alternative routes, how we understand 'high-risk' and 'low-risk', etc. 

The argument of using the F-1 to start AZM is from a real-world example we have now. The last CAS clearly said that the Saab 2000 repair project was a trigger to pursuing AZM. Of course, the experienced gained from co-producing the JF-17 was a factor too. 

Well, both things were on the table (i.e., manufacturing work, engineering work, etc) with the F-1 in the late 1980s. We also had ties with South Africa in the 1990s to acquire SOWs -- plus help on a strategic asset in ALCM -- so something conventional like BVR wasn't out-of-scope. Kentron had even offered us the T-Darter and A-Darter in 1999, so adding an older design like R-Darter to the Mirage F-1 (just as we had added H-2/H-4 to the Mirage III/5) was an option.

We now need to eat all those missed opportunities today. We need to come to terms with the fact that our leaders can -- and have -- made bad decisions. It means we need to set-up serious accountability and transparency mechanisms to ensure AZM moves forward, and doesn't end up failing because of bad decisions in the future. 

What if we take ties with China for granted to the point of totally tying our supply channel to them? There are folks here who are OK with that, and they'll take AZM to the woodshed and make it happen. Likewise, what if we come across hard cash (e.g., an exceptional upswing in the economy), will we put it all to AZM, or buckle and import a fighter?

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## Raider 21

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It helps us see where we went wrong, and how much time we've lost in the process. It sounds like a lot of 'hindsight' stuff, but if it didn't matter, the word "lesson" wouldn't exist.
> 
> That entire episode was an example of us taking US ties for granted, not pushing our thought process beyond what was immediately apparent, and not leveraging all options in the absolute sense of the term. It also speaks to a culture of not questioning decisions, not inquiring why we didn't take alternative routes, how we understand 'high-risk' and 'low-risk', etc.
> 
> The argument of using the F-1 to start AZM is from a real-world example we have now. The last CAS clearly said that the Saab 2000 repair project was a trigger to pursuing AZM. Of course, the experienced gained from co-producing the JF-17 was a factor too.
> 
> Well, both things were on the table (i.e., manufacturing work, engineering work, etc) with the F-1 in the late 1980s. We also had ties with South Africa in the 1990s to acquire SOWs -- plus help on a strategic asset in ALCM -- so something conventional like BVR wasn't out-of-scope. Kentron had even offered us the T-Darter and A-Darter in 1999, so adding an older design like R-Darter to the Mirage F-1 (just as we had added H-2/H-4 to the Mirage III/5) was an option.
> 
> We now need to eat all those missed opportunities today. We need to come to terms with the fact that our leaders can -- and have -- made bad decisions. It means we need to set-up serious accountability and transparency mechanisms to ensure AZM moves forward, and doesn't end up failing because of bad decisions in the future.
> 
> What if we take ties with China for granted to the point of totally tying our supply channel to them? There are folks here who are OK with that, and they'll take AZM to the woodshed and make it happen. Likewise, what if we come across hard cash (e.g., an exceptional upswing in the economy), will we put it all to AZM, or buckle and import a fighter?


If cash was there, and the best platform was picked then there would still be could've and should've theories.....

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Raider 21 said:


> If cash was there, and the best platform was picked then there would still be could've and should've theories.....


Yep, and as a result, there'll be fewer blindspots and better decisions in the future.

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## mingle

denel said:


> I completely support your argument. This would have lead to a strong base vs the assemblies that are in name only. F1 production if that option was exercised provided many turn key albiet from Atlas; SOW capabilities which eventually went to M3 via Cheetah as H2/H4. Similarly F1AZ by default had HMS from started with various Darter config. F1 was already capable of extensive upgrades not only on the airframe but technologically. French pursued M2K which is fine, this was a decent alternative if pursued would have given a very strong home advantage free of sanctions; like RM33 engine - been there done it; so many options were available but PAC/PAF never seem to get the head of out a chinese/US back hole (sorry for my language - it is imperative to call a dung a dung). In summary, a litany of lost opportunities and day dreaming.
> I fear that Azm and others programs may be just that dreams and never come to fruition as soon as F-16 carrot is dangled with kickbacks.


US offered F15E to replace AZM as one member of this forum said


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## MastanKhan

Irfan Baloch said:


> respected gents
> F-1 discussion deserves a separate section. we continue to revisit it and talk about lost opportunity due to PAF F-16 experience.
> 
> if you like I can move the F-1 related posts to a new thread? or if we want to continue to talk about F1 or other jets in reference to F-16 within this thread then I can leave it here.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @MastanKhan @denel



Mr. Baloch.

The quality of the discussions on the board are dying due to to too much control---you cannot write here---you cannot write there---you cannot write this---you cannot write that.

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## MastanKhan

Raider 21 said:


> How does the would've and could've translate to what is happening now. As the would've and could've never happened and it lies in the same theories basket.
> 
> Chances are with those would've and should've theories would have resulted in no AZM, and a probable chance of BVR-less capable Mirage F1s....




Hi,

That is a strange comment---. AZM is in itself is a 5th gen program---. 

A sound fundamental F1 base would have landed us in the 5th gen realm a longtime ago---alomost 20 years ago. 

That is by the default of natural progression of being in fighter aircraft manufacturing industry---.

Now---where else would one have gone after learning about the 4th gen aircrafts---Obviously to 4.5 and 5th gen aircraft---.

If we were building the F1's---we would have also found ways to build the BVR's---.

Everything falls into place once the first right step is taken---.

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## Danish Moazzam

Irfan Baloch said:


> respected gents
> F-1 discussion deserves a separate section. we continue to revisit it and talk about lost opportunity due to PAF F-16 experience.
> 
> if you like I can move the F-1 related posts to a new thread? or if we want to continue to talk about F1 or other jets in reference to F-16 within this thread then I can leave it here.
> 
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @MastanKhan @denel



I agree, No point in discussing what has been lost. It would be rather constructive to discuss what can be done now and in future.

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## The Eagle

MastanKhan said:


> Mr. Baloch.
> 
> The quality of the discussions on the board are dying due to to too much control---you cannot write here---you cannot write there---you cannot write this---you cannot write that.



It wouldn't be needed if some people try to control their own wild & conspiracy theories while they are lost in their self centric world holding too much of the grudge known to them. There is a limit of childish yet foolish behaviour and propaganda spouting. Hence, the bar is set and limits are defined but trust me, it doesn't matter to the majority or almost everyone as they aren't lost in their own mental puzzles. This particular control is placed so that the decorum and quality can be maintained. Leaking State secrets or some brats loosing their ----- is not quality or someone having a bad time and comes with theories & all those tales merely to unload his/her burden is neither quality nor knowledge.

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## denel

Raider 21 said:


> If cash was there, and the best platform was picked then there would still be could've and should've theories.....


See this is the same quagmire --- 'picked up'.... you need to realise concept of building locally and sustainably. It is this very argument that has everyone in a bind. Bad decisions and blunders keep on repeating.
You are throwing money at other's vs trying to build skillsets or build knowledge; it is a throwaway item.

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is a strange comment---. AZM is in itself is a 5th gen program---.
> 
> A sound fundamental F1 base would have landed us in the 5th gen realm a longtime ago---alomost 20 years ago.
> 
> That is by the default of natural progression of being in fighter aircraft manufacturing industry---.
> 
> Now---where else would one have gone after learning about the 4th gen aircrafts---Obviously to 4.5 and 5th gen aircraft---.
> 
> If we were building the F1's---we would have also found ways to build the BVR's---.
> 
> Everything falls into place once the first right step is taken---.


F1 was easily able to extend itself into BVR and was ahead of its time. It came with a good engine 9K but RD engine took it to another level etc. It would have provided opportunity to build an entire industry; but alas the M3/M5 is relegated to patchups etc. Think of it this way - Grifo radars were bought, thru - what else was done to improve their performance - you get a bicycle - do you not want to tune it further to improve it more?

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## Irfan Baloch

MastanKhan said:


> Mr. Baloch.
> 
> The quality of the discussions on the board are dying due to to too much control---you cannot write here---you cannot write there---you cannot write this---you cannot write that.


Roger

I leave it here.

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## denel

mingle said:


> US offered F15E to replace AZM as one member of this forum said


no friend, let us not start another rumour mill - WDF is full of such peddlers that is beyond comprehension - j15,f16,jf7 delivered etc etc etc. one thinks people are high on something there.

Going any path of US avenue is a dead duck; ITAR free is a must in any requirements.

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## araz

I have read the debate. As a historical event it is worth a debate to discuss why a decision was not taken. We do need some official perspective on what was offered and why a decision was not taken. We do not have it AND THEREFORE THIS IS VERY LIKELY TO TURN INTO A VENTING OF FRUSTRATIONS AS WE DON'T KNOW THE ACTUAL GROUND REALITIES.
As to what happens now, we have obviously moved on and have a platform of our own which is progressing steadily. We also have future aspirations which although a bit lofty is according to our leadership doable. It remains to be seen where we can get to.
A

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## mingle

denel said:


> no friend, let us not start another rumour mill - WDF is full of such peddlers that is beyond comprehension - j15,f16,jf7 delivered etc etc etc. one thinks people are high on something there.
> 
> Going any path of US avenue is a dead duck; ITAR free is a must in any requirements.


No it's not him it's this forum

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## Windjammer

*Originally conceived as a lightweight fighter, the F-16 went on to replace such heavies as the F-4 Phantom.
It's said the F-16 can carry double the weight of F-4 to same distance or same weight to twice the distance.*

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## PanzerKiel



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## PanzerKiel



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## PanzerKiel



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## PanzerKiel



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## PanzerKiel



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## Myth_buster_1

Windjammer said:


> Mirages are said to be the fastest aircraft in PAF inventory....Wonder how would they come out in WVR Combat.
> 
> 
> View attachment 669180





Mirage-III has one of the lowest rate of climb rate in PAF inventory. So they would do poorly in dog fights.


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## PanzerKiel



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## ghazi52



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## Reichmarshal

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 671455


Can see Saudi hawks in the back ground ?
If that is the case than it was 17-18 when the Saudi team came to isd for 7 sep, if i remember correctly

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## Clairvoyant

Myth_buster_1 said:


> Mirage-III has one of the lowest rate of climb rate in PAF inventory. So they would do poorly in dog fights.



It's next to impossible catching a Mirage at low level,secondly their main role is strike not Interception.

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## Raider 21

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 671455


He probably had the ride of his lifetime

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## Raider 21

Reichmarshal said:


> Can see Saudi hawks in the back ground ?
> If that is the case than it was 17-18 when the Saudi team came to isd for 7 sep, if i remember correctly


Seems like a PAF pilot given a backseat ride with the Saudi Hawks

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## Myth_buster_1

Clairvoyant said:


> It's next to impossible catching a Mirage at low level,secondly their main role is strike not Interception.


In a dive maybe but in a level flight it can be shot down by BVR

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## PanzerKiel

Myth_buster_1 said:


> In a dive maybe but in a level flight it can be shot down by BVR


BVRs didn't even spare Mig 21 and Su30.

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## Clairvoyant

Myth_buster_1 said:


> In a dive maybe but in a level flight it can be shot down by BVR



In a dive even the venerable Sabre could break the sound barrier. The niche for Mirage is it's strike capability and low level speed. Ask anyone who has flown DACT against Mirages and they'd tell you it's really difficult to catch it at low level.

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## SQ8

Raider 21 said:


> Seems like a PAF pilot given a backseat ride with the Saudi Hawks


Back in 2003 - I was staying in the kingdom tower in Riyadh and from my hotel room would see the Saudi pilots in hawks fly below me close to the tower while I enjoyed breakfast at the four seasons.

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## Myth_buster_1

Clairvoyant said:


> In a dive even the venerable Sabre could break the sound barrier. The niche for Mirage is it's strike capability and low level speed. Ask anyone who has flown DACT against Mirages and they'd tell you it's really difficult to catch it at low level.



You need to understand that just alone speed in today's modern air warfare is not sufficient. Most BVR missiles can reach speeds up to mach 4-5 where as Mirage-III in a dive can achieve mach 2.2~.


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## Raider 21

SQ8 said:


> Back in 2003 - I was staying in the kingdom tower in Riyadh and from my hotel room would see the Saudi pilots in hawks fly below me close to the tower while I enjoyed breakfast at the four seasons.


I saw their display for the first time at the Al Ain Air Show in 2005. Very impressive show. Maybe the Sherdils could learn a thing or too...

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## SQ8

Raider 21 said:


> I saw their display for the first time at the Al Ain Air Show in 2005. Very impressive show. Maybe the Sherdils could learn a thing or too...


But *cough* *cough* as Pakistanis it is part of our national “sunnat” that the Saudis cant do the proverbial “istanjah” without us...

Let alone them have 10-1 kills against us in mock dogfights in one exercise.

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## Clairvoyant

Myth_buster_1 said:


> You need to understand that just alone speed in today's modern air warfare is not sufficient. Most BVR missiles can reach speeds up to mach 4-5 where as Mirage-III in a dive can achieve mach 2.2~.



I know it extremely well that all these things that you mentioned matter and my reply was solely in response to the query regarding speed. The main role of Mirage in Paf is strike that's why there is increased emphasis on low level flying plus their speed gives them a big bonus in escaping any Interception at low level fullstop. 

A higher Mach number only helps if you as a striker find out that you're being locked by a hostile AI radar and you egress the theatre at high speed increasing the distance between yourself and the hostile aircraft.

Also keep in mind a striker wouldn't go into the battle all by himself,all this is practised in LFE's, a prime example being 27th February.

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## Clairvoyant

Raider 21 said:


> I saw their display for the first time at the Al Ain Air Show in 2005. Very impressive show. Maybe the Sherdils could learn a thing or too...



Wish they could learn a thing or two from Egyptian K.8 aerobatic team,honestly their performance was much better.

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## Reichmarshal

SQ8 said:


> But *cough* *cough* as Pakistanis it is part of our national “sunnat” that the Saudis cant do the proverbial “istanjah” without us...
> 
> Let alone them have 10-1 kills against us in mock dogfights in one exercise.


Their are quite a few RAF pilots in that team including the team leader.

A human being is an amazing thing n can do and achieve wt ever it sets it's mind to or at the very least die trying.
The saudis like the rest of the khaleejis have been held hostage by the insecurities of their rulers and the westerners who have bread them. like *Norman Schwarzkopf *said in his book that the " French and the Russians only taught the iraqis to take off and land and nothing in between making our job easier ".
Make no mistake in a shooting war these khaleejis will always come out second best.

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## SQ8

Reichmarshal said:


> Their are quite a few RAF pilots in that team including the team leader.
> 
> A human being is an amazing thing n can do and achieve wt ever it sets it's mind to or at the very least die trying.
> The saudis like the rest of the khaleejis have been held hostage by the insecurities of their rulers and the westerners who have bread them. like *Norman Schwarzkopf *said in his book that the " French and the Russians only taught the iraqis to take off and land and nothing in between making our job easier ".
> Make no mistake in a shooting war these khaleejis will always come out second best.


Is it also that we have been held hostage by our own insecurities and the need to prove that we are god’s gift to earth?
Why do our pilots also have CFITs if we are really that great? Or have F-16s go down because technicians used a Mirage part?
Or swindle money?

We kept assuming that 1 Pakistani equals 10 Indian until they caught 90000 of us in shame..

These are flawed ideals of generalizations based upon hearsay instead of looking at the ground realities; and unless you know the RSAF inside out or even know the Saudi kid of today - such statements are arrogant at best and racist at worst.

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## CIA Mole

is jf17 just poor man's F16?


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## Engima Chaudhry

CIA Mole said:


> is jf17 just poor man's F16?


Nope, it's a 'wiser man's' F 16.

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## Reichmarshal

SQ8 said:


> Is it also that we have been held hostage by our own insecurities and the need to prove that we are god’s gift to earth?
> Why do our pilots also have CFITs if we are really that great? Or have F-16s go down because technicians used a Mirage part?
> Or swindle money?
> 
> We kept assuming that 1 Pakistani equals 10 Indian until they caught 90000 of us in shame..
> 
> These are flawed ideals of generalizations based upon hearsay instead of looking at the ground realities; and unless you know the RSAF inside out or even know the Saudi kid of today - such statements are arrogant at best and racist at worst.



The khaleeji with all the wealth at their disposal could have done so much for them selves and even for the rest of the Muslims, if they had choosen. They could have been the real power in the region and the middleast. But they did nothing n now that party is comming to an end. That friend is an example of human will power.

I don't know if we r God's gift to the earth or not but ever time the khaleejis a$s has been on fire they always ran to Pakistan for help. So maybe we r God's gift for the khaleejis.
certainly we Pakistanis have our problems and our faults but not as extensive as our khaleeji brothers.

Keeping India at bay which is 7 times bigger than Pakistan certainly tells us that 1 Pakistan is equal to at least 7 indians. 

Again the Saudi team is trained, led and manned by ex red arrow RAF pilots with a "quite" a few Saudi pilots in the mix.

Ps: the "quite" i put their satisfy ur ego.

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## Blacklight

Reichmarshal said:


> Their are quite a few RAF pilots in that team including the team leader.
> 
> A human being is an amazing thing n can do and achieve wt ever it sets it's mind to or at the very least die trying.
> The saudis like the rest of the khaleejis have been held hostage by the insecurities of their rulers and the westerners who have bread them. like *Norman Schwarzkopf *said in his book that the " French and the Russians only taught the iraqis to take off and land and nothing in between making our job easier ".
> Make no mistake in a shooting war these khaleejis will always come out second best.


Norman Schwarzkopf was talking about the Iraqis of Saddam Era, but you twist it nicely.

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## Signalian

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> If we had the "grit" mentality in the early 1990s, then we would've worked to equip the Mirages (F-1/III/V) with BVR and SOW much earlier (not wait on the US for F-16s). Imagine having 100-150 BVR and SOW-equipped fighters by Kargil.


F-16 set the milestone and criteria for PAF, an example being JF-17.

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## Yasser76

Reichmarshal said:


> The khaleeji with all the wealth at their disposal could have done so much for them selves and even for the rest of the Muslims, if they had choosen. They could have been the real power in the region and the middleast. But they did nothing n now that party is comming to an end. That friend is an example of human will power.
> 
> I don't know if we r God's gift to the earth or not but ever time the khaleejis a$s has been on fire they always ran to Pakistan for help. So maybe we r God's gift for the khaleejis.
> certainly we Pakistanis have our problems and our faults but not as extensive as our khaleeji brothers.
> 
> Keeping India at bay which is 7 times bigger than Pakistan certainly tells us that 1 Pakistan is equal to at least 7 indians.
> 
> Again the Saudi team is trained, led and manned by ex red arrow RAF pilots with a "quite" a few Saudi pilots in the mix.
> 
> Ps: the "quite" i put their satisfy ur ego.



Strange looking Englishmen....

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## Blacklight

Yasser76 said:


> Strange looking Englishmen....
> 
> View attachment 671877


There was an arab member, that had this infatuation with "Arabization", I hope he doesn't see this pic, or he will claim it as evidence, of goras being arabized

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## Zulfiqar

SQ8 said:


> But *cough* *cough* as Pakistanis it is part of our national “sunnat” that the Saudis cant do the proverbial “istanjah” without us...
> 
> Let alone them have 10-1 kills against us in mock dogfights in one exercise.



On the yemeni front, their airforce has seen a lot of target practice against drones/missiles e.t.c.

They have the $ to fire all the Aims/AMRAAMs. We can simulate all we want but those real world lessons from firing real weapons do help in the peace time training which won't be possible for us (obviously not counting LGB/A2G training which we have plenty of due to WOT).

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## SQ8

Reichmarshal said:


> The khaleeji with all the wealth at their disposal could have done so much for them selves and even for the rest of the Muslims, if they had choosen. They could have been the real power in the region and the middleast. But they did nothing n now that party is comming to an end. That friend is an example of human will power.
> 
> I don't know if we r God's gift to the earth or not but ever time the khaleejis a$s has been on fire they always ran to Pakistan for help. So maybe we r God's gift for the khaleejis.
> certainly we Pakistanis have our problems and our faults but not as extensive as our khaleeji brothers.
> 
> Keeping India at bay which is 7 times bigger than Pakistan certainly tells us that 1 Pakistan is equal to at least 7 indians.
> 
> Again the Saudi team is trained, led and manned by ex red arrow RAF pilots with a "quite" a few Saudi pilots in the mix.
> 
> Ps: the "quite" i put their satisfy ur ego.


Lets agree to disagree and leave it to time on proving who is right.

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## MIRauf

Zulfiqar said:


> On the yemeni front, their airforce has seen a lot of target practice against drones/missiles e.t.c.
> 
> They have the $ to fire all the Aims/AMRAAMs. We can simulate all we want but those real world lessons from firing real weapons do help in the peace time training which won't be possible for us (obviously not counting LGB/A2G training which we have plenty of due to WOT).



So was Iraqi Air-force lessons learned during Iran-Iraq war, those lessons didn't help them much during 1st Gulf War. I lived in Kuwait during Iran-Iraq war, seen enough videos of Iraqi propaganda whenever we picked up Iraqi TV Channel out of Basra. We use to get amazed as to how a over-weight pot belly could climb into TU-22s, I guess that use to be the highlight of the videos.

Does one thinks that Iraqi Air-force is any better under NATO / USAF training ?


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## Zulfiqar

MIRauf said:


> So was Iraqi Air-force lessons learned during Iran-Iraq war, those lessons didn't help them much during 1st Gulf War. I lived in Kuwait during Iran-Iraq war, seen enough videos of Iraqi propaganda whenever we picked up Iraqi TV Channel out of Basra. We use to get amazed as to how a over-weight pot belly could climb into TU-22s, I guess that use to be the highlight of the videos.
> 
> Does one thinks that Iraqi Air-force is any better under NATO / USAF training ?



No one is comparing a middle eastern airforce to USAF/NATO airforces.

W.r.t KSA I knew a PA aviation officer who also had a disgust for his saudi counterparts owing to their acts while both were training in US. Have heard similar opinions from my father w.r.t omanis.

However, present generation is evolving. Need a hint, go through the linkedin listing w.r.t the *types *of jobs available in KSA nowadays and compare it with ours (Not even counting the number of jobs per capita which are more there). Their economy, education, industrial knowledge and tech base is evolving at a much better rate than ours (in terms of the required skills). This also has an impact on the intake of the human resource into the airforce.

Lastly regardless of arab mindset, their is a difference in doctrine of KSA relative to what Iraqis followed. Please do not compare the airforce of 90s with that of today. They have had countless redflag type trainings since then and are relatively better compared to their peers. 

Obviously we can't compare them to USAF or IDAF and neither would KSA be fighting them but discounting them all together isn't objective analysis.

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## Reichmarshal

Yasser76 said:


> Strange looking Englishmen....
> 
> View attachment 671877



"There's many a *slip* 'twixt the *cup* and the lip".

N in simple urdu:

"Hati ka dant khanay kay our 
Our dikhany kay our".


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## MIRauf

Zulfiqar said:


> No one is comparing a middle eastern airforce to USAF/NATO airforces.
> 
> W.r.t KSA I knew a PA aviation officer who also had a disgust for his saudi counterparts owing to their acts while both were training in US. Have heard similar opinions from my father w.r.t omanis.
> 
> However, present generation is evolving. Need a hint, go through the linkedin listing w.r.t the *types *of jobs available in KSA nowadays and compare it with ours (Not even counting the number of jobs per capita which are more there). Their economy, education, industrial knowledge and tech base is evolving at a much better rate than ours (in terms of the required skills). This also has an impact on the intake of the human resource into the airforce.
> 
> Lastly regardless of arab mindset, their is a difference in doctrine of KSA relative to what Iraqis followed. Please do not compare the airforce of 90s with that of today. They have had countless redflag type trainings since then and are relatively better compared to their peers.
> 
> Obviously we can't compare them to USAF or IDAF and neither would KSA be fighting them but discounting them all together isn't objective analysis.



I don't have disgust or hold any grudge against any of the M.E countries, secondly I am not senile enough to compare USAF to any or combined M.E Airforces, just too lopsided comparison in favor of the USAF. I am just pointing out what we saw during Iran-Iraq war, I will take your word that the things have changed for better.

On other note, to the member that stated the 10-1 or so thrashing PAF received, when was it and what type of aircraft involved along with DACT rules ? BVR / wvr ?

Thank you.


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## Yasser76

Reichmarshal said:


> "There's many a *slip* 'twixt the *cup* and the lip".
> 
> N in simple urdu:
> 
> "Hati ka dant khanay kay our
> Our dikhany kay our".



In simple English, maybe worth posting a shred of evidence to back up a claim, than maybe the wheel out the proverbs....


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## The Eagle

2 thread bans issued for Off-topic and derailment.

Regards,

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## Raider 21

Reichmarshal said:


> The khaleeji with all the wealth at their disposal could have done so much for them selves and even for the rest of the Muslims, if they had choosen. They could have been the real power in the region and the middleast. But they did nothing n now that party is comming to an end. That friend is an example of human will power.
> 
> I don't know if we r God's gift to the earth or not but ever time the khaleejis a$s has been on fire they always ran to Pakistan for help. So maybe we r God's gift for the khaleejis.
> certainly we Pakistanis have our problems and our faults but not as extensive as our khaleeji brothers.
> 
> Keeping India at bay which is 7 times bigger than Pakistan certainly tells us that 1 Pakistan is equal to at least 7 indians.
> 
> *Again the Saudi team is trained, led and manned by ex red arrow RAF pilots with a "quite" a few Saudi pilots in the mix.*
> 
> Ps: the "quite" i put their satisfy ur ego.


The ex-Red Arrows pilot is an adviser and they only have one on their team. Bulk of their team are Saudis and by that I mean all display pilots. And almost all are top graduates and instructors.

Let's bring it back to Vipers.

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## Windjammer

*PAF VIPER 731....The Bison Blaster (Note the Indian flag)*

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## Nomad40

Windjammer said:


> *PAF VIPER 731....The Bison Blaster (Note the Indian flag)*
> 
> View attachment 672169


can any one explain TOPGUN X4

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## baqai

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> can any one explain TOPGUN X4



i think this signifies that this particular aircraft have won Sher Afghan trophy four times? i might be wrong

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## Amigator

Windjammer said:


> *PAF VIPER 731....The Bison Blaster (Note the Indian flag)*
> 
> View attachment 672169



Do you have pic of aircraft which shot down MIghty Sukhoi 30 MKI a.k.a Aisan Raptor a.k.a. Mini Awacs a.k.a. PAF Pilot would never know what hit him .

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## Nomad40

baqai said:


> i think this signifies that this particular aircraft have won Sher Afghan trophy four times? i might be wrong


sherafghan is for Pilots it is recognition of how a pilot employs his weapon systems delivery platform.

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## Trailer23



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## Readerdefence

baqai said:


> i think this signifies that this particular aircraft have won Sher Afghan trophy four times? i might be wrong


Hi I think four times not the aircraft but may be pilot what I understand is top gun should be a pilot 
if somebody with more info can give his insight 
thank you

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## Trailer23



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## Pogical Thinking

Might be a long shot, But apparently, the UAE is interested in selling some of their F-16's after getting their F-35's. Maybe there is a slim chance PAF could try to go for them?

https://eurasiantimes.com/why-is-the-uae-planning-to-sell-its-latest-f-16-fighter-jets-to-greece/

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/2..._Look_to_Sell_Some_of_its_F_16_Jets_to_Greece


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Pogical Thinking said:


> Might be a long shot, But apparently, the UAE is interested in selling some of their F-16's after getting their F-35's. Maybe there is a slim chance PAF could try to go for them?
> 
> https://eurasiantimes.com/why-is-the-uae-planning-to-sell-its-latest-f-16-fighter-jets-to-greece/
> 
> https://www.defenseworld.net/news/2..._Look_to_Sell_Some_of_its_F_16_Jets_to_Greece


IMO...no chance. The best shot we have is convincing the US to let us get Iraq's F-16s (commonality with our frames and no sensitive tech we don't already have).

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## Yasser76

Pogical Thinking said:


> Might be a long shot, But apparently, the UAE is interested in selling some of their F-16's after getting their F-35's. Maybe there is a slim chance PAF could try to go for them?
> 
> https://eurasiantimes.com/why-is-the-uae-planning-to-sell-its-latest-f-16-fighter-jets-to-greece/
> 
> https://www.defenseworld.net/news/2..._Look_to_Sell_Some_of_its_F_16_Jets_to_Greece




No chance. UAE will never sell them, and Greece will never buy them. Also F-35 deal far far from being approved.

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## Raider 21

Pogical Thinking said:


> Might be a long shot, But apparently, the UAE is interested in selling some of their F-16's after getting their F-35's. Maybe there is a slim chance PAF could try to go for them?
> 
> https://eurasiantimes.com/why-is-the-uae-planning-to-sell-its-latest-f-16-fighter-jets-to-greece/
> 
> https://www.defenseworld.net/news/2..._Look_to_Sell_Some_of_its_F_16_Jets_to_Greece


Very slim to no chance for Block 60s ending up in PAF service. The irony though, I know a few Emirati Viper drivers that started their careers flying Vipers in Turkey with TuAF before converting to the Block 60s in the US. Seeing this on the news shows how things can turn around......

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## Trailer23

Not sure where the thought of PAF getting those Block 60's came from.

Those are still new jets and (personally) I doubt if the UAEAF would want to part ways from them when they have older Mirage 2000's in their inventory.

Infact, some have even suggested that those very Block 60 (Desert Falcons) may be more advanced than the upcoming Block 70/72. [Don't know for a fact - so don't crucify me for that statement].

I don't know why people get excited about something - pretty much next to impossible. These articles have next to no source and are merely speculating that (if) the UAEAF get the F-35's, they want to offload their Vipers. (If) the UAEAF were to get F-35's, they aren't coming out of the oven readymade. There will be a Tender, followed by approvals and then an order. Unless they're gonna be able to jump the cue ahead of other NATO Members, it'll be a while before the 1st one lands. Even then, it would be a stretch to see them lose those Vipers. F-35 or not, those Block 60's are Beasts.

As far as PAF is concerned, we can't seem to get our hands on older F-16's like Block 25's or 30's and here people are actually putting PAF & Block 60 in the same sentence.

I'm sorry, but that's just as absurd as PAF and J-15/16 & JH-7 drama.

The only Vipers I (personally) see heading to Pakistan are those Block 25's/30's (ex-USAF/Air National Guard) - and that will become clearer after the US Elections.

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## Talon



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## air marshal



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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO...no chance. The best shot we have is convincing the US to let us get Iraq's F-16s (commonality with our frames and no sensitive tech we don't already have).


Or used europeans and getting a structural upgrade package for them in turkey

In both cases i believe usa will prefer us buying their block70 
Which i think PAF doesnt want to put in alot of money into..

Meaning PAF is either bankrupt or prefer going all in jf-17/ azm


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## Blacklight

WiderMan said:


> 80 actually, 25 foxtrot models.


Pls see attached PDF file - DSCA notifications:

*Page No.7, *
DSCA Transmittal No. 13-60,
Jan 24, 2014

*Page 14 *- PAF C130 Upgrades (Apologies for being off topic)









Top Falcons: The UAEs F-16 Block 60/61 Fighters


The most advanced F-16s in the world aren't American. That distinction belongs to the UAE, whose F-16 E/F Block 60s are a half-generation ahead of the F-16 C/D Block 50/52+ aircraft that form the backbone of the US Air Force, and of many other



www.defenseindustrydaily.com













36(b)(1) Arms Sales Notification


The Department of Defense is publishing the unclassified text of a section 36(b)(1) arms sales notification. This is published to fulfill the requirements of section 155 of Public Law 104-164 dated July 21, 1996.




www.federalregister.gov










Pentagon notifies Congress of possible F-16 upgrades for UAE | Security Assistance Monitor


The Defense Security Cooperation Agency told lawmakers it had approved the sale of guns, navigational systems, night vision devices and other equipment as part of a "Block 61" version of the F-16s, if that deal is finalized.




securityassistance.org


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## Yasser76

Can we get back to PAF F-16 discussion at sine point?

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## WiderMan

Blacklight said:


> *F-16s from UAE Arrive at Their New Base at Souda Bay*
> Aug 21, 2020
> 
> 
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> 
> F-16s from UAE Arrive at Their New Base at Souda Bay
> 
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> Greek media are reporting that there is a change in the air over Souda Bay base on Crete. During the day on Friday, four F-16 fighter jets from the United Arab Emirates will fly there and it is reported that the base will be their new home. The move is seen as apparently the […]
> 
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> greece.greekreporter.com
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> 
> Can you please elaborate, as to how you arrived at the figure of 77. Two that were damaged, were repaired, and only the Italian crash in April 2011, was a write off, as far as i know.




That airframe was repaired, the only write-off was that DAS crash with an LM pilot at the controls. The UAEAF received an attrition replacement in 2013/2014.

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## Blacklight

WiderMan said:


> That airframe was repaired, the only write-off was that DAS crash with an LM pilot at the controls. The UAEAF received an attrition replacement in 2013/2014.


So all attrition's have been replaced, of the original 80?

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## WiderMan

Blacklight said:


> So all attrition's have been replaced, of the original 80?


 
Yes, the UAEAF really pushed for that one aircraft.


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## air marshal



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## Signalian

WiderMan said:


> The UAEAF received an attrition replacement in 2013/2014.


PAF is due attrition/crash/accidently shot down replacements since 80's.


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## Talon

Thoughts?

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## SQ8

Hodor said:


> Thoughts?
> View attachment 674639


Similar to Falcon STAR.

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## JamD

Hodor said:


> Thoughts?
> View attachment 674639





SQ8 said:


> Falcon STAR.


Are we seeing F-16s take the same route as our mirages (MRF)? On one hand I wouldn't be surprised, on the other don't know how feasible it is.

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## Tipu7

Signalian said:


> PAF is due attrition/crash/accidently shot down replacements since 80's.


10 Birds in total. 


Hodor said:


> Thoughts?
> View attachment 674639


I presume a MRO facility and surplus F16s. It will be sweet if we manage V kits.

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## mingle

Hodor said:


> Thoughts?
> View attachment 674639


It's old patch like TAI era or any new upgrades are in mind??


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## mingle

JamD said:


> Are we seeing F-16s take the same route as our mirages (MRF)? On one hand I wouldn't be surprised, on the other don't know how feasible it is.


Then we need more vipers


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## mingle

Tipu7 said:


> 10 Birds in total.
> 
> I presume a MRO facility and surplus F16s. It will be sweet if we manage V kits.


Too many available both EU and US


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## HRK

Cockpit of F-16 ADF version acquired from Jordan 





Credit: @Mohsin77 (Sino Defence)

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## Tipu7

HRK said:


> Cockpit of F-16 ADF version acquired from Jordan
> View attachment 675126
> 
> Credit: @Mohsin77 (Sino Defence)


In air combat, ADF is a better aircraft than Jf17-A.

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## Yasser76

Tipu7 said:


> In air combat, ADF is a better aircraft than Jf17-A.



Be great to get your evidence behind this.

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## HRK

Tipu7 said:


> In air combat, ADF is a better aircraft than Jf17-A.


in terms of T/W ratio or in Radar Range .... ??


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## baqai

Hodor said:


> Thoughts?
> View attachment 674639




loved it and inspired me to make this


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## Tipu7

HRK said:


> in terms of T/W ratio or in Radar Range .... ??


In terms of air defense and air dominance roles. 
Some of its capabilities are not acknowledged openly. Despite being OCU bird primarily, there is good reason why it's deployed in Bholari.

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## Sifar zero

How many did we buy from RJAF?


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## HRK

Tipu7 said:


> In terms of air defense and air dominance roles.
> Some of its capabilities are not acknowledged openly. Despite being OCU bird primarily, there is good reason why it's deployed in Bholari.


but they seem not compatible with AIM-120C-5 which PAF has in her inventory ... ???


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## Tipu7

HRK said:


> but they seem not compatible with AIM-120C-5 which PAF has in her inventory ... ???


I used to think the same. But since its a popular belief, so lets keep believing it.

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## Pogical Thinking

Sifar zero said:


> How many did we buy from RJAF?


13 if my memory serves me correctly, 12 A's and 1 B

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## Viper27

Tipu7 said:


> In air combat, ADF is a better aircraft than Jf17-A.



Perhaps in dogfighting. Since it does not have the capability to fire the Aim-120C in our inventory (unless the radars were upgraded discreetly..which is highly unlikely) there is no way it beats the JF-17 in BVR combat.


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## Sifar zero

What upgrades were they given?


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## Armchair

The fact that the news came out that the ADF are unable to fire the AMRAAM, means exactly that they can fire them - as if they couldn't, it would have been kept as a state secret. 

It is not a big deal, just a software update. I remember during the sanction years Pak had hacked the F-16's FCS and avionics even, and was doing funny things with them as an experiment.

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## Viper27

Armchair said:


> The fact that the news came out that the ADF are unable to fire the AMRAAM, means exactly that they can fire them - as if they couldn't, it would have been kept as a state secret.
> 
> It is not a big deal, just a software update. I remember during the sanction years Pak had hacked the F-16's FCS and avionics even, and was doing funny things with them as an experiment.



There is no need to keep a state secret about something that is widely known to anyone who can google ADF F-16s and their capabilities. News came out because the individual units of ADFs we bought from Jordan are all OCU versions of the earliest blocks and did not go through any MLU upgrades.They can fire the previous AMRAAM versions but not the ones we have. 

Also, its not as simple as merely tweaking with the FCS. Technology has vastly improved since the 90s and we cannot experiment with our F-16s which carries risk of stoppage of spares and maintenance support. We also needed MLU upgrades at TAI for our own in order to enable them to fire the AMRAAM.

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## Armchair

Viper27 said:


> There is no need to keep a state secret about something that is widely known to anyone who can google ADF F-16s and their capabilities. News came out because the individual units of ADFs we bought from Jordan are all OCU versions of the earliest blocks and did not go through any MLU upgrades.They can fire the previous AMRAAM versions but not the ones we have.
> 
> Also, its not as simple as merely tweaking with the FCS. Technology has vastly improved since the 90s and we cannot experiment with our F-16s which carries risk of stoppage of spares and maintenance support. We also needed MLU upgrades at TAI for our own in order to enable them to fire the AMRAAM.



FCS has nothing to do with AMRAAM firing ability. That probably shows you aren't quite sure about what you are talking about. Anyways, people can have differing opinions.

My view is that the news of PAF F-16s not being able to fire AMRAAMs was released by the PAF. They could have simply left it ambiguous. (Did they come with the old Amraams? Did it receive a software update by LM? etc would have allowed ambiguity to play in PAF's favour. 

The fact they made it crystal clear simply shows they are AMRAAM capable now. It's a rational and logic based conclusion. I'm having to make the same point again but if someone read my previous post and was intelligent enough to understand it, they would have gotten the argument the first time around. 

Secondly, the fact that PAF could tweak its non MLU F-16s in the 1990s, which were close to tech level of the ADF also cannot be brushed aside with random comments about a completely different issue - tinkering with the present generation or MLU'ed F-16s. That is a different ball game and one would only use such an argument either because they don't understand tech, or they are just being deliberately disingenious.

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## GriffinsRule

Armchair said:


> FCS has nothing to do with AMRAAM firing ability. That probably shows you aren't quite sure about what you are talking about. Anyways, people can have differing opinions.
> 
> My view is that the news of PAF F-16s not being able to fire AMRAAMs was released by the PAF. They could have simply left it ambiguous. (Did they come with the old Amraams? Did it receive a software update by LM? etc would have allowed ambiguity to play in PAF's favour.
> 
> The fact they made it crystal clear simply shows they are AMRAAM capable now. It's a rational and logic based conclusion. I'm having to make the same point again but if someone read my previous post and was intelligent enough to understand it, they would have gotten the argument the first time around.
> 
> Secondly, the fact that PAF could tweak its non MLU F-16s in the 1990s, which were close to tech level of the ADF also cannot be brushed aside with random comments about a completely different issue - tinkering with the present generation or MLU'ed F-16s. That is a different ball game and one would only use such an argument either because they don't understand tech, or they are just being deliberately disingenious.


No such news was released by PAF dude. It's people on the forum here, including myself that read up on it and corroborated with pictorial evidence showing that the ADFs only carrying AIM-9s. 
There are other circumstances as well surrounding the transfers of these in the first place that I am guessing points to the lack of this capability in these jets. Jordan transferred/sold these jets to us (on US behest, since USN didn't want to give up on their birds) while it was buying MLU F-16s from Europe. It made sense for them too to standardize their fleet. PAF choose not to upgrade these jets for whatever reason (maybe age of the jets, changing US-Pak relationship around that time, or finances) but there is no hidden conspiracy on part of the PAF.
And PAF can not tweak any fcs systems on its own without major repercussions so not worth it for a handful of jets (that's assuming it even has the capability to do so).

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## baqai

its fan art made by me so dont jump around

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## GriffinsRule

baqai said:


> its fan art made by me so dont jump around


Haqiqat TV: PAF is buying gold plated F-16s

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## ziaulislam

JamD said:


> Are we seeing F-16s take the same route as our mirages (MRF)? On one hand I wouldn't be surprised, on the other don't know how feasible it is.


no, unless uncle sam let us..which they wont, because if they do it will seriously hurt India

imagine us gathering 200-300 f16s..

india will need a lot of 4th gn fighters to counter that

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## Trailer23



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## mshan44



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## Vapour

Armchair said:


> The fact that the news came out that the ADF are unable to fire the AMRAAM, means exactly that they can fire them - as if they couldn't, it would have been kept as a state secret.
> 
> It is not a big deal, just a software update. I remember during the sanction years Pak had hacked the F-16's FCS and avionics even, and was doing funny things with them as an experiment.



Very true, often even denial can mean that there's something more to it than meets the eye or that the opposite is true.


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## Cool_Soldier

So, is there any development to add some old Jordian F16 into fleet.
New ones are hard to obtained from USA. even we couldn't get 8 F-16 approved for us.


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## denel

Cool_Soldier said:


> So, is there any development to add some old Jordian F16 into fleet.
> New ones are hard to obtained from USA. even we couldn't get 8 F-16 approved for us.


Nope - not just jordan but all other surplus avenues closed.

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## Inception-06

denel said:


> Nope - not just jordan but all other surplus avenues closed.



whats the reason ?


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## StructE

Inception-06 said:


> whats the reason ?


Strengthening Pakistan do not fit in the overall strategy, there is not even a short term goal associated with Pakistan at this point. Any help needed in Afghanistan can be extracted by FATF threat.

Responsibility goes to Pakistan's leadership, they are unable to barter their services.

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## Mig hunter

Nothing more is coming from US anymore.. Shift in geopolitics and national interests of both Pakistan and US in the region

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## MastanKhan

Cool_Soldier said:


> So, is there any development to add some old Jordian F16 into fleet.
> New ones are hard to obtained from USA. even we couldn't get 8 F-16 approved for us.




Hi,

The blunder of not taking charge in Yemen---pakistan is paying that price now.

The worst is yet to come---.

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## MastanKhan

Inception-06 said:


> whats the reason ?



Hi,

Pakistan and Paf failed to take advantage of the situation in a timely manner---.

Like not forcing the US to release the F16 right after agreeing to join the US against taliban.

Like not purchasing an alternate in a timely manner.

What then happened as time passed by---pakistan's utility became less importatnt and then came a time that pakistan was slapped to do things for free which the americans paid for free in the past.

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## Yasser76

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pakistan and Paf failed to take advantage of the situation in a timely manner---.
> 
> Like not forcing the US to release the F16 right after agreeing to join the US against taliban.
> 
> Like not purchasing an alternate in a timely manner.
> 
> What then happened as time passed by---pakistan's utility became less importatnt and then came a time that pakistan was slapped to do things for free which the americans paid for free in the past.



This is a very odd view of modern geopolitics. It was Pakistan itself and IK in particular that said we do not want handouts anymore and the transactional element of the US-Pak relationship should end. There has been no oushback to US Aid to be restarted and the military do not even want it restarted. 

Right now the only thing of any interest to the Military maybe spares, upgrades and maybe even small purchases of legacy weapons (F-16, P-3C, US Made missiles). The move away from US was forseen some tine ago. This is no secret of "failure", this is a policy.

15-20 years from now China may well be the worlds largest economy and greatest military power in many spheres. Pakistan is China's closest ally bar none. US-China rivalry will deepen. US has made clear India is it's main ally in the region. Pakistan will never have access to the latest US equipment for this reason. No amount of deals or actions by anyone in Pakistan can change this. Could we get F-16V upgrades? Unlikely now in my eyes, even if we paid fully.

What we will have is access to some of the most cutting edge military tech from China, in the next 10-20 years the quality and sophistication of Chinese equipment will increases even more rapidly than it has over the last 20 years.....

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## Trailer23

Cool_Soldier said:


> ...even we couldn't get 8 F-16 approved for us.


I'm sorry, but which Rocket Scientist gave you the idea that those *08 F-16's* were not approved for Sale?

Both US Congress & the DoD did approve the Sale, but there was a clause - a big one. One that we had to finance them completely. Bottom line, we didn't.

US Approves Sale of 8 F-16 Block 52 Fighters to Pakistan

There is also the matter of US attempting to push the Sale of F-16's when ACM (retd.) Sohail Aman was in office and he rejected (bluntly).

Timestamped - Click play:




As for the '_Yemen_' conversation that just keeps popping up like daisies (from time to time) - well those individuals are free to send their kids and grandkids to fight meaningless War that doesn't concern our Nation - Pakistan. 

Maybe Americans or _some_ that carry the US Passport have something against that Country. We don't.

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## Tipu7

F16 case is always open for Pakistan minus the times when PAK-US relations are bitter. And PAF will eagerly add more F16s whenever it will be feasible.

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## Yasser76

Tipu7 said:


> F16 case is always open for Pakistan minus the times when PAK-US relations are bitter. And PAF will eagerly add more F16s whenever it will be feasible.



That was the case maybe 5 years back but time is moving against this now.

F-16 replacement (AZM) is being planned and developed, PAF actively planning on the day the F-16s get retired. Remember there is no V upgrade so 10 years from now Block 52s will no longer be cutting edge machines. With radar and missile ranges increasing stealth will become vital, furthermore I would imagine PAF would want an all AESA equipped fleet, ultra long range missiles (both air to air and air to ground) and some element of IA integrated into the plane. F-16s simply do not do that anymore. PAF is planning for ariel dominance with an enemy equipped with Rafales and upgraded Mirage 2000s. F-16s do not let us do that, AZM does. Don't get me wrong, PAF had long love affair with F-16, it served us very very well and up until 2 months ago was the mist cutting edge fighter in South Asia. PAF has know about Rafale induction for around 10 years now and plan to counter it.

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## Windjammer

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Pakistan and Paf failed to take advantage of the situation in a timely manner---.
> 
> Like not forcing the US to release the F16 right after agreeing to join the US against taliban.
> 
> Like not purchasing an alternate in a timely manner.
> 
> What then happened as time passed by---pakistan's utility became less importatnt and then came a time that pakistan was slapped to do things for free which the americans paid for free in the past.


So have we moved on from JH-7 then or obtaining JH-7 would have rendered the need of F-16s.

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## MastanKhan

Windjammer said:


> So have we moved on from JH-7 then or obtaining JH-7 would have rendered the need of F-16s.



Hi,

Please keep you interest in posting pictures---.

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## MastanKhan

Yasser76 said:


> This is a very odd view of modern geopolitics. It was Pakistan itself and IK in particular that said we do not want handouts anymore and the transactional element of the US-Pak relationship should end. There has been no oushback to US Aid to be restarted and the military do not even want it restarted.
> 
> Right now the only thing of any interest to the Military maybe spares, upgrades and maybe even small purchases of legacy weapons (F-16, P-3C, US Made missiles). The move away from US was forseen some tine ago. This is no secret of "failure", this is a policy.
> 
> 15-20 years from now China may well be the worlds largest economy and greatest military power in many spheres. Pakistan is China's closest ally bar none. US-China rivalry will deepen. US has made clear India is it's main ally in the region. Pakistan will never have access to the latest US equipment for this reason. No amount of deals or actions by anyone in Pakistan can change this. Could we get F-16V upgrades? Unlikely now in my eyes, even if we paid fully.
> 
> What we will have is access to some of the most cutting edge military tech from China, in the next 10-20 years the quality and sophistication of Chinese equipment will increases even more rapidly than it has over the last 20 years.....




Hi,

Food and clothings are a hand out---.

Weapons are not a handout---. When someone gives you a killing machine for your national security---it is not a handout---.

I am so sad that nobody teaches you kids things about wars weapons tactics and strategy---.

The sophistication of the american weapon is already at a multitude of the chinese weapon right now---. In 20 years---it would be way apart---.

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## Yasser76

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Food and clothings are a hand out---.
> 
> Weapons are not a handout---. When someone gives you a killing machine for your national security---it is not a handout---.
> 
> I am so sad that nobody teaches you kids things about wars weapons tactics and strategy---.
> 
> The sophistication of the american weapon is already at a multitude of the chinese weapon right now---. In 20 years---it would be way apart---.



It is fairly obvious you have little idea about the level of technological acheivment China has achieved in the military sphere. Let me enlighten you by using the words of The Pentagon









China's Military Has Surpassed US in Ships, Missiles and Air Defense, DoD Report Finds


China's military is already superior to the U.S. in several respects and is aiming for total dominance.




www.military.com


----------



## Armchair

In my experience, as a defense contractor, there can be no generalization against or for chinese weapons. Completely depends on what weapons - manufacturer, etc. 

US weapons however are (very generally speaking), the best in the world. Not from a cost perspective, but effectiveness perspective. 27-2 showed that. An example - if PAF was offered for free - a squadron of F-22s or a squadron of J-20s, without taking politics into account, what do you think PAF would choose?

At this point the US already has developed prototypes for 6th gen. And a multitude of other weapons. Pak has been burnt with Chinese weapons a few times so far - Z-9s, F-22Ps, are to name a few big ticket items. Who knows what the future holds? You love the VT-4s so far, let's see how long they remain loved - Bangladeshi experience with NORINCO tank - looked flashy but now leaks water when it rains! 

As someone who has worked with the BN at the highest level - the Chinese ships we have are incredibly breakdown prone. A saying in the BN - that these ships run on the blood of the engineers assigned for maintaining them.

Buying sh!tty gear that takes up endless resources, both human and material, to keep running but don't perform when push comes to shove - that is the danger and reality that many budget conscious countries are facing. 

Then there are so many issues that can only be understood at the micro level - like Chinese Type-56 rifles are excellent - if they are from the old stock. If you buy them from NORINCO and they are a new production - they are horrible to use. So you really have to be extremely diligent when buying Chinese. In BD MoD - they often specify clearly that for a certain item, they have to be from within a list of countries - and that list often skips China. Not because BD doesn't want closer ties with China - but because of past experience with the quality of their equipment. 

The reason that JH-7s make sense is also a micro issue - they are relatively good quality equipment - with British engines and a simple structure that is dumb proof. They can play a role that is 100% relevant today - AShMs, BVR magazines and ability to threaten the entire Indian coast with ASMs. The fact that PAF does not understand this, is understandable. However, PN surely is suffering from that lack of appreciation.

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## Cool_Soldier

Trailer23 said:


> I'm sorry, but which Rocket Scientist gave you the idea that those *08 F-16's* were not approved for Sale?
> 
> Both US Congress & the DoD did approve the Sale, but there was a clause - a big one. One that we had to finance them completely. Bottom line, we didn't.
> 
> US Approves Sale of 8 F-16 Block 52 Fighters to Pakistan
> 
> There is also the matter of US attempting to push the Sale of F-16's when ACM (retd.) Sohail Aman was in office and he rejected (bluntly).
> 
> Timestamped - Click play:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for the '_Yemen_' conversation that just keeps popping up like daisies (from time to time) - well those individuals are free to send their kids and grandkids to fight meaningless War that doesn't concern our Nation - Pakistan.
> 
> Maybe Americans or _some_ that carry the US Passport have something against that Country. We don't.




You are right sir ,these were approved and supposed to be paid by US govt from FMF program, I think,

But, then US changed their mind and offered us to pay from our own national funds and Pakistan decided not pay heavy cost.

Mean to say whatever the reason was, it could not materialize.

Same case is going on with Helicopters A1Z1


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## Trailer23

Cool_Soldier said:


> Mean to say whatever the reason was, it could not materialize.
> 
> Same case is going on with Helicopters A1Z1


For something not to materialize, there is always a reason. So let end the debate on those 08 F-16's. Its water under the bridge.

Can't speak on the Zulus, 'cause I don't know anything 'bout the Army (at all).


----------



## Windjammer

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Please keep you interest in posting pictures---.


And you should stick with your dodgy cars.

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## Yasser76

Armchair said:


> In my experience, as a defense contractor, there can be no generalization against or for chinese weapons. Completely depends on what weapons - manufacturer, etc.
> 
> US weapons however are (very generally speaking), the best in the world. Not from a cost perspective, but effectiveness perspective. 27-2 showed that. An example - if PAF was offered for free - a squadron of F-22s or a squadron of J-20s, without taking politics into account, what do you think PAF would choose?
> 
> At this point the US already has developed prototypes for 6th gen. And a multitude of other weapons. Pak has been burnt with Chinese weapons a few times so far - Z-9s, F-22Ps, are to name a few big ticket items. Who knows what the future holds? You love the VT-4s so far, let's see how long they remain loved - Bangladeshi experience with NORINCO tank - looked flashy but now leaks water when it rains!
> 
> As someone who has worked with the BN at the highest level - the Chinese ships we have are incredibly breakdown prone. A saying in the BN - that these ships run on the blood of the engineers assigned for maintaining them.
> 
> Buying sh!tty gear that takes up endless resources, both human and material, to keep running but don't perform when push comes to shove - that is the danger and reality that many budget conscious countries are facing.
> 
> Then there are so many issues that can only be understood at the micro level - like Chinese Type-56 rifles are excellent - if they are from the old stock. If you buy them from NORINCO and they are a new production - they are horrible to use. So you really have to be extremely diligent when buying Chinese. In BD MoD - they often specify clearly that for a certain item, they have to be from within a list of countries - and that list often skips China. Not because BD doesn't want closer ties with China - but because of past experience with the quality of their equipment.
> 
> The reason that JH-7s make sense is also a micro issue - they are relatively good quality equipment - with British engines and a simple structure that is dumb proof. They can play a role that is 100% relevant today - AShMs, BVR magazines and ability to threaten the entire Indian coast with ASMs. The fact that PAF does not understand this, is understandable. However, PN surely is suffering from that lack of appreciation.



There is an element of truth in what you say, my point was China has been catching up and still needs mre work to do to make truly world class equipment but it is getting there. Pakistani forces take new equipment seriously, when we had little choice we had to put up with some shoddy Chinese equipment but post 2000 their kit is coming on leaps and bounds in quality. Often Pakistan does reject Chinese equipment that then pushes the Chinese to improve it (like J-10 and Z-10) and often Pakistan modifies Chinese equipment for it's own needs (F-7PG, F-22P, Ukranian engine in Khalid etc)

In the area of quality, certainly in terms of avionics and ship building, even the US concede the gap has narrowed massively, and will continue to do so. 

Of course PAF would go for F-22s over J-20s right now, but as I said, in 20 years that may not be the case. the 21st Century will belong to China, not America. Pakistan is very fortunate to have it as an ally and a neighbour, and I think by year 2040 you will see China surpass Europe and equal, if not surpass US in the very latest military technology and space technology.

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## Readerdefence

Hi by the time Pakistan start manufacturing AZM or 5th generation probably Indians will get their hands on stealth detection radars as in recent immediate past American P8 start landing on Indian naval bases for refuelling and sharing their spying data on Chinese navy 
so I’m sure Indian might not be getting stealth detection radars very soon from USA not in case for Pakistan but to counter Chinese stealth which later can be used against Pakistan 
beside the AZM better option for Pakistan is not ask Chinese help in this particular technology and get a long range potent missile defence system ASAP 
thank you


----------



## MastanKhan

Yasser76 said:


> It is fairly obvious you have little idea about the level of technological acheivment China has achieved in the military sphere. Let me enlighten you by using the words of The Pentagon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China's Military Has Surpassed US in Ships, Missiles and Air Defense, DoD Report Finds
> 
> 
> China's military is already superior to the U.S. in several respects and is aiming for total dominance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.military.com



Hi,

Americans are monsters clothed in teddy bear clothing---.

When they decide to destroy someone---they start to put them on a pedestal---they start to prep and prepare their civilians to get ready for war and be prepared to see the enemy killed destroyed and annihilated---.

This nation has killed more muslims in the last 18 years than the invasion of the mongols---.

Never in the history of the world so many people made homeless---their civilizations destroyed by a well educated and learned people like the americans---.

Chinese have yet to learn killing of nations at the scale of the americans---.

Americans have killed over a 100 million native american and no one knows about it---.

Youngman---I have forgotten more than many of your well learned people will ever be able to learn and understand.

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## Yasser76

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Americans are monsters clothed in teddy bear clothing---.
> 
> When they decide to destroy someone---they start to put them on a pedestal---they start to prep and prepare their civilians to get ready for war and be prepared to see the enemy killed destroyed and annihilated---.
> 
> This nation has killed more muslims in the last 18 years than the invasion of the mongols---.
> 
> Never in the history of the world so many people made homeless---their civilizations destroyed by a well educated and learned people like the americans---.
> 
> Chinese have yet to learn killing of nations at the scale of the americans---.
> 
> Americans have killed over a 100 million native american and no one knows about it---.
> 
> Youngman---I have forgotten more than many of your well learned people will ever be able to learn and understand.



I am 44 now, but thank you for the young man compliment. 

Try sticking to the debate on Chinese military tech innovation. 

You are right about US destroying many countries but that is another argument. Pakistan's 500,000 strong world class army and nuclear weapons are the main reasons US tanks are not parked outside my ancestral village in Rawalpindi district.....

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## The Accountant

Yasser76 said:


> It is fairly obvious you have little idea about the level of technological acheivment China has achieved in the military sphere. Let me enlighten you by using the words of The Pentagon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> China's Military Has Surpassed US in Ships, Missiles and Air Defense, DoD Report Finds
> 
> 
> China's military is already superior to the U.S. in several respects and is aiming for total dominance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.military.com


This is pentagon trying to get budget increase. Even China knows they have not surpassed USA, not even closed. However, they are more than capable of defending themselves against any adversary even USA due to home advantage but cant beat USA, at a neutral battle zone.

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## Yasser76

The Accountant said:


> This is pentagon trying to get budget increase. Even China knows they have not surpassed USA, not even closed. However, they are more than capable of defending themselves against any adversary even USA due to home advantage but cant beat USA, at a neutral battle zone.



Usually these reports to overblow enemy capabilities but in some areas Chinese have excelled. Namely avionics, air to air missiles, anti-carrier missiles and increasingly avionics. Granted much of this tech may have been stolen from the US, but regardless if how it has been acquired, in many areas now China has already surpassed US.


----------



## MastanKhan

Yasser76 said:


> I am 44 now, but thank you for the young man compliment.
> 
> Try sticking to the debate on Chinese military tech innovation.
> 
> You are right about US destroying many countries but that is another argument. Pakistan's 500,000 strong world class army and nuclear weapons are the main reasons US tanks are not parked outside my ancestral village in Rawalpindi district.....



Hi,

Don't dwell on the 500K strong and nucs---. 

American "Payroll" goes far and deep in pakistan.

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## The Accountant

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Don't dwell on the 500K strong and nucs---.
> 
> American "Payroll" goes far and deep in pakistan.


Partially agreed but as an institution it still much stronger and majority of core commanders might have influence but not on payroll.

Afghanistan war, instance on Kashmir,CPEC and nuclear / missile program is testamonial to the fact that majority of core commanders are out of control of americans.


----------



## baqai

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Americans are monsters clothed in teddy bear clothing---.



Americans are monsters FULL STOP, END 

their existence is based on occupying land, all their major wars have been based upon lies. They will lie, deceit and will even eat their own shit when it comes to their own interests. 

Unfortunately history is told by either the winners or by the literates and they have edge on both ends. Enforcing freedom is their favorite pass time and since their existence they literally always have been in one war or another. This aura of superiority is drilled in them since they are born.

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## Yasser76

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Don't dwell on the 500K strong and nucs---.
> 
> American "Payroll" goes far and deep in pakistan.



Nah, thanks for the consiracy theories but I will stick the backing the most powerful Muslim armed forces in the world

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## Tair-Lahoti

Am I in the wrong thread, where is F16 discussion? Another TH claiming f16 upgrade and acquisition. Can anyone verify or deny this news?


----------



## AMRAAM

Tair-Lahoti said:


> Am I in the wrong thread, where is F16 discussion? Another TH claiming f16 upgrade and acquisition. Can anyone verify or deny this news?


Where is that TH? Can you embed his tweet here?


----------



## Signalian

This was the last update from 2019:

Booz Allen Hamilton Inc., McLean, Virginia, has been awarded a not-to-exceed $9,111,111 predominantly firm-fixed-price undefinitized contract to provide technical security team support services in support of the Pakistan F-16 program. Work will be performed in Pakistan and is expected to be complete by June 18, 2020. This contract involves 100% foreign military sales to Pakistan. This award is the result of a sole-source acquisition. Foreign military sales funds of $4,464,444 are being obligated at the time of award. The Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Air Force Security Assistance and Cooperation Directorate, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, is the contracting activity (FA8630-20-C-5020).

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## denel

Signalian said:


> This was the last update from 2019:
> 
> Booz Allen Hamilton Inc., McLean, Virginia, has been awarded a not-to-exceed $9,111,111 predominantly firm-fixed-price undefinitized contract to provide technical security team support services in support of the Pakistan F-16 program. Work will be performed in Pakistan and is expected to be complete by June 18, 2020. This contract involves 100% foreign military sales to Pakistan. This award is the result of a sole-source acquisition. Foreign military sales funds of $4,464,444 are being obligated at the time of award. The Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Air Force Security Assistance and Cooperation Directorate, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, is the contracting activity (FA8630-20-C-5020).


amazing.... to have a monitoring service that you must pay. middle finger to who ever buys US products.

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## SD 10

denel said:


> amazing.... to have a monitoring service that you must pay. middle finger to who ever buys US products.


but paf will still buy it................

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## Raider 21

denel said:


> amazing.... to have a monitoring service that you must pay. middle finger to who ever buys US products.


Applies to other major defence contracts too. You'd think the non-American contracts are cleaner.....

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## Tair-Lahoti

AMRAAM said:


> Where is that TH? Can you embed his tweet here?




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1313737476629032960


----------



## Imran Khan

Tair-Lahoti said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1313737476629032960


who is dreaming at day time today ?


----------



## Tair-Lahoti

Imran Khan said:


> who is dreaming at day time today ?


Don't know..... but look at his followers


----------



## denel

Raider 21 said:


> Applies to other major defence contracts too. You'd think the non-American contracts are cleaner.....


depends.


----------



## denel

Imran Khan said:


> who is dreaming at day time today ?


correct WDF is full of ganga smokers making up day dreams... uhm.... dagga dreams but when comes down from high, they are still sitting on hard ground before the experience  man, that forum is where various concotions are being brewed. at least Times of India is not paying attention there otherwise can you imagine the diahorea starting post reading WDF.


----------



## ghazi52

PAF F-16C block 52 #10901 is taxiing by the lens at NAS Fort Worth on December 15th, 2009 after performing a functional check flight.

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## SQ8

denel said:


> amazing.... to have a monitoring service that you must pay. middle finger to who ever buys US products.


If tomorrow a country was sold the AHLRAC and associated weaponry decided to show a rival supplier the system to copy it and potentially sell it to SA’s enemies - would it not behoove to have some monitoring in place?

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## Tair-Lahoti

denel said:


> correct WDF is full of ganga smokers making up day dreams... uhm.... dagga dreams but when comes down from high, they are still sitting on hard ground before the experience  man, that forum is where various concotions are being brewed. at least Times of India is not paying attention there otherwise can you imagine the diahorea starting post reading WDF.


This guy isn't from WDF, but from "Pakistan strategic Forum". These guys were making fun of these claims of WDF earlier. I know WDF claims are too far fetched I don't believe them either.

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## Slider

ghazi52 said:


> PAF F-16C block 52 #10901 is taxiing by the lens at NAS Fort Worth on December 15th, 2009 after performing a functional check flight.
> 
> 
> View attachment 677197



I thought the Block-52s had the side panels. How come this version doesn't? Is this any different?


----------



## Blacklight

Slider said:


> I thought the Block-52s had the side panels. How come this version doesn't? Is this any different?


You mean CFT's?


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## Sifar zero

Blacklight said:


> You mean CFT's?


Can CFTS be fitted on block 15.


----------



## Blacklight

Sifar zero said:


> Can CFTS fitted on block 15.


Technically yes.


----------



## Slider

Blacklight said:


> You mean CFT's?



I thought those had Electronic Warfare and other sensitive things in there?


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## Blacklight

Slider said:


> I thought those had Electronic Warfare and other sensitive things in there?


Then what is on the spine of the D's?


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## ziaulislam

As i said numerous times if azm is delayed and f16s dont come something else will be added for parity that something else can only be j10 (unless russia agrees to flanker with chinese equipment which it WONT )

I think PAF will probably think f16s arent possible and will take anything from there as a bonus

Afghanistan peace is Pakistan goal i doubt we will leverage that for mere f16

This why i would say we have no leverage in Afghanistan

One exception is if USA broke a deal between Taliban and nothern allaince..in that case if Pakistan can keep taliban check it may leverage some equipment but this is very unlikely

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## MIRauf

Slider said:


> I thought those had Electronic Warfare and other sensitive things in there?



Are you referring to D model with squarish Spine ? Yes, that houses electronics and other equipment that are located behind pilot on single seater.


----------



## Waterboy

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1314961115265331201

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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> As i said numerous times if azm is delayed and f16s dont come something else will be added for parity that something else can only be j10 (unless russia agrees to flanker with chinese equipment which it WONT )
> 
> I think PAF will probably think f16s arent possible and will take anything from there as a bonus
> 
> Afghanistan peace is Pakistan goal i doubt we will leverage that for mere f16
> 
> This why i would say we have no leverage in Afghanistan
> 
> One exception is if USA broke a deal between Taliban and nothern allaince..in that case if Pakistan can keep taliban check it may leverage some equipment but this is very unlikely


US has very short term memory;

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## air marshal



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## shaumar

Dear PDF community,
I was wondering now that PAF has heavily invested in the JF17 Thunder programme and soon to roll out the block 3. What will happen to the Pakistani F16s, since PAF can not buy anymore or have them upgraded from US or its partner allies, correct me if I am wrong. Will PAF make there own upgrades on the F16 or, will the U.S complain as usual?

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## TheSnakeEatingMarkhur

shaumar said:


> Dear PDF community,
> I was wondering now that PAF has heavily invested in the JF17 Thunder programme and soon to roll out the block 3. What will happen to the Pakistani F16s, since PAF can not buy anymore or have them upgraded from US or its partner allies, correct me if I am wrong. Will PAF make there own upgrades on the F16 or, will the U.S complain as usual?


PAF just got them upgraded in early 2020 by USA

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## shaumar

Faqir of ipi said:


> PAF just got them upgraded in early 2020 by USA


Why wasnt it in the news and to what block?


----------



## TheSnakeEatingMarkhur

shaumar said:


> Why wasnt it in the news and to what block?


52s I think but in future Pakistan can get Turkeys help to upgrade and modify them..


----------



## shaumar

Faqir of ipi said:


> 52s I think but in future Pakistan can get Turkeys help to upgrade and modify them..


I see, is this because Turkey has technology transfer and license to build them, in future will the U.S object to Turkey facilitating Pakistani F16s? As of current Turkeys relationship with the U.S and Greece have soured.


----------



## TheSnakeEatingMarkhur

shaumar said:


> I see, is this because Turkey has technology transfer and license to build them, in future will the U.S object to Turkey facilitating Pakistani F16s? As of current Turkeys relationship with the U.S and Greece have soured.


US stopped them from upgrading before but Pakistan can send its own people to train in Turkey and learn F16 stuff obviously not directly..


----------



## shaumar

Yes, I understand that, but what about the "security technical team" that is monitoring the PAF and its F16s?


----------



## TheSnakeEatingMarkhur

shaumar said:


> Yes, I understand that, but what about the "security technical team" that is monitoring the PAF and its F16s?


They'll be there as usual


----------



## shaumar

This is why we should not buy any American military hardware, no matter how good, we should focus on being self-reliant and make indigenous weapons, like the jf17. We should concentrate on domesticating our military hardware and infrastructure even further. 

We should expel the technical security team, regardless of what terms and conditions. America is not what it used to be, its power/influence is diminishing. I find it frustrating they still have a lot of pressure on Pakistan.

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## TOPGUN

Simple answer they aren't going anywhere for a while and why should they !!

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## Sifar zero

Faqir of ipi said:


> They'll be there as usual


But 52s have CFT can you mount or add CFTS to block 15s.

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## Yasser76

TOPGUN said:


> Simple answer they aren't going anywhere for a while and why should they !!



Exactly, even with Block III and AZM, F-16s will make decent second line fighters for many years to come. All PAF has to do is worry about weapons/spares and attrition for the next 20 odd years.

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## shaumar

TOPGUN said:


> Simple answer they aren't going anywhere for a while and why should they !!



Of course, they won't, there like a leech, but Pakistani government should start distancing themselves. We should focus on making reliable partnership with our neighbours and nearby countries. The USA has not benefited us and publicly denounces Pakistan.


----------



## TheSnakeEatingMarkhur

Sifar zero said:


> But 52s have CFT can you mount or add CFTS to block 15s.


Dk about that but upgrades were made and F16s went through MLU... thats what I know


----------



## Ichigo

Faqir of ipi said:


> 52s I think but in future Pakistan can get Turkeys help to upgrade and modify them..


all to 52s? just when did this happen? early 2020 u sure? or as per some members, they were having some inside info about block 70/72, that they were coming and current ones to be upgraded which obviously wasnt true back then and wont be it seems. but this block 52 upgrade done for all naaaaaaa. i wish but naaa didnt happen. unless top secret stuff.
dont tell me u r a believer of 70/72s too.


----------



## TheSnakeEatingMarkhur

Ichigo said:


> all to 52s? just when did this happen? early 2020 u sure? or as per some members, they were having some inside info about block 70/72, that they were coming and current ones to be upgraded which obviously wasnt true back then and wont be it seems. but this block 52 upgrade done for all naaaaaaa. i wish but naaa didnt happen. unless top secret stuff.
> dont tell me u r a believer of 70/72s too.


Bahi I am not part of airforce just a civilian with love for forces and defence weapons...

I believe know they were upgraded and MLU happened what was the block range not sure about that most likely will be 52s because that's basic block we need...


----------



## Imran Khan

here is future

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## Yasser76

shaumar said:


> Of course, they won't, there like a leech, but Pakistani government should start distancing themselves. We should focus on making reliable partnership with our neighbours and nearby countries. The USA has not benefited us and publicly denounces Pakistan.



Did you deliberately start this thread out if a genuine interest in the future of the F-16 fleet or to highlight Pakistan/US relations, it's hard to tell reading your posts....


----------



## shaumar

Both


----------



## Yasser76

shaumar said:


> Both



This is not a political forum.


----------



## shaumar

No, but whats wrong with discussing two different things? You may complain to the administrator then, if it bothers you so much.

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## Yasser76

shaumar said:


> No, but whats wrong with discussing two different things? You may complain to the administrator then, if it bothers you so much.



I have done. Thanks.


----------



## TsAr

The Future is bright thats all I can add at the moment....

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## Nomad40

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The blunder of not taking charge in Yemen---pakistan is paying that price now.
> 
> The worst is yet to come---.


Hi,

I can assure you Pakistan can buy what ever it wants as long as Pakistan pay's for it. 

Thanks.


----------



## MIRauf

shaumar said:


> Dear PDF community,
> I was wondering now that PAF has heavily invested in the JF17 Thunder programme and soon to roll out the block 3. What will happen to the Pakistani F16s, since PAF can not buy anymore or have them upgraded from US or its partner allies, correct me if I am wrong. Will PAF make there own upgrades on the F16 or, will the U.S bark as usual?



PAF will sell them for scraps and then they will be turned into Razor Blades. In near future when you are shaving ( if you shave, that is,) you can wonder if it was made from one of the PAF F-16s. That Titanium is good for Razors /wink

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## ziaulislam

shaumar said:


> Dear PDF community,
> I was wondering now that PAF has heavily invested in the JF17 Thunder programme and soon to roll out the block 3. What will happen to the Pakistani F16s, since PAF can not buy anymore or have them upgraded from US or its partner allies, correct me if I am wrong. Will PAF make there own upgrades on the F16 or, will the U.S bark as usual?


they will easily be relevant till 2035
after wards they would need an upgrade 
a structural upgrade wll be possible but they will also need a technological upgrade


----------



## LeGenD

shaumar said:


> Dear PDF community,
> I was wondering now that PAF has heavily invested in the JF17 Thunder programme and soon to roll out the block 3. What will happen to the Pakistani F16s, since PAF can not buy anymore or have them upgraded from US or its partner allies, correct me if I am wrong. Will PAF make there own upgrades on the F16 or, will the U.S complain as usual?


Following is latest news: https://dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/p...urity-team-tst-continued-support-f-16-program

Current inventory:-

Block 52+ variant = 18 in total (12 = C; 6 = D)

Other older Block 15 variants received MLU update from a Turkish firm with American consent and approval.

The entire fleet is in good shape and state of readiness in the present. Indians learned as much the hard way on 27-02-19.

The upcoming JF-17 Thunder Block III will reinforce F-16 variants in FRONT-LINE engagement roles (vs. IAF) but not a substitute/replacement. Other fighter jets will continue to offer SECOND-LINE engagement roles.

WE are not allowed to amend F-16s on our own (WE cannot do much in this regard anyways). The maximum WE can do is to source crucial parts to keep F-16s operational for as long as possible.



shaumar said:


> This is why we should not buy any American military hardware, no matter how good, we should focus on being self-reliant and make indigenous weapons, like the jf17. We should concentrate on domesticating our military hardware and infrastructure even further.


Virtually any Foreign supplier provide equipment with Terms & Conditions - if this is your concern.



shaumar said:


> We should expel the technical security team, regardless of what terms and conditions. America is not what it used to be, its power/influence is diminishing. I find it frustrating they still have a lot of pressure on Pakistan.


Unrealistic and childish assumptions.

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## truthfollower

Imran Khan said:


> here is future
> View attachment 679683
> 
> 
> View attachment 679684
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 679682



where you find such photos gave me heart attack


----------



## Imran Khan

truthfollower said:


> where you find such photos gave me heart attack


*Rocourt dismantling complex*






__





Rocourt dismantling complex photos | F-16.net







www.f-16.net


----------



## GriffinsRule

F-16s in PAF are here to stay for the next 40-50 years or so esp the block 52s. The older Block 15s for perhaps another 20+ years

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## MastanKhan

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Hi,
> 
> I can assure you Pakistan can buy what ever it wants as long as Pakistan pay's for it.
> 
> Thanks.



Hi,

Ain't you a genius---.

Pakistan has been openly refused---. It was stated by Gen Musharraf---& I have also made that statement many a times as well.

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## Nomad40

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Ain't you a genius---.
> 
> Pakistan has been openly refused---. It was stated by Gen Musharraf---& I have also made that statement many a times as well.


Perhaps is Pakistan has a clear agenda about it's allies than we would not be having this issue.


----------



## MastanKhan

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Perhaps is Pakistan has a clear agenda about it's allies than we would not be having this issue.



Hi,

The issue is not with pakistan but with pakistanis---.

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## Yasser76

Well, when it comes to F-16 and US/Pak defence relationship things may change.

Looks all but certain Biden is coming to town in Jan and he has been a long time supporter of Pakistan and knows Indian deviousness very well. He pushed the Biden - Lugar Bill and has even been awarded Hillal-e-Pakistan. I am not saying US/Pak relationship will be mended overnight but US President more aware of Pakistan's role.

Michele Flournoy is being tipped as new US Defence Secretary, she was involved in Pak F-16 programme whilst at more junior role in Pentagon and has much experiance dealing with Pak Mil.

This could now well be time to make a final push for one last F-16 purchase, especially as now Lockheed Martin know they have zero chance of selling it to India.....

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## Signalian

Yasser76 said:


> Well, when it comes to F-16 and US/Pak defence relationship things may change.
> 
> Looks all but certain Biden is coming to town in Jan and he has been a long time supporter of Pakistan and knows Indian deviousness very well. He pushed the Biden - Lugar Bill and has even been awarded Hillal-e-Pakistan. I am not saying US/Pak relationship will be mended overnight but US President more aware of Pakistan's role.
> 
> Michele Flournoy is being tipped as new US Defence Secretary, she was involved in Pak F-16 programme whilst at more junior role in Pentagon and has much experiance dealing with Pak Mil.
> 
> This could now well be time to make a final push for one last F-16 purchase, especially as now Lockheed Martin know they have zero chance of selling it to India.....


Pay the price, get F-16.
OR
Wait for CSF, and get delayed then let conspiracy theories build up which mostly show USA as the evil regime.

Its no rocket science, its business. Both parties have to come to an agreement for a deal to take place.

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## PDF

Signalian said:


> Pay the price, get F-16.
> OR
> Wait for CSF, and get delayed then let conspiracy theories build up which mostly show USA as the evil regime.
> 
> Its no rocket science, its business. Both parties have to come to an agreement for a deal to take place.


Seven months after incurring the wrath of Washington -- and stiff economic sanctions -- by testing nuclear weapons, Pakistan received a welcome holiday gift this week from the Clinton administration: payment of an IOU worth $464 million, most of it in cash. The money was delivered to reimburse Pakistan for 28 F-16 combat jets it purchased a decade ago but never received. The shipment was blocked -- and the planes placed in escrow in the Arizona desert -- after President George Bush declined to certify that Pakistan was free of atomic weapons and Congress, concluding Pakistan had lied about its nuclear program, imposed restrictions on arms exports.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1999/01/01/us-pays-pakistan-for-f-16s-withheld-over-nuclear-issue/a996312e-fc47-4818-80c8-c428aa14bde7/



Got humiliation trying both ways. It doesn't matter we pay or not, if they decide not to release, they have all the authority and right to do so. We just have to decide for ourselves if we want to beg and keep prefering the outstanding yet high sanction-prone U.S. equipment or go for alternatives.

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## Yasser76

PDF said:


> Seven months after incurring the wrath of Washington -- and stiff economic sanctions -- by testing nuclear weapons, Pakistan received a welcome holiday gift this week from the Clinton administration: payment of an IOU worth $464 million, most of it in cash. The money was delivered to reimburse Pakistan for 28 F-16 combat jets it purchased a decade ago but never received. The shipment was blocked -- and the planes placed in escrow in the Arizona desert -- after President George Bush declined to certify that Pakistan was free of atomic weapons and Congress, concluding Pakistan had lied about its nuclear program, imposed restrictions on arms exports.
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1999/01/01/us-pays-pakistan-for-f-16s-withheld-over-nuclear-issue/a996312e-fc47-4818-80c8-c428aa14bde7/
> 
> 
> 
> Got humiliation trying both ways. It doesn't matter we pay or not, if they decide not to release, they have all the authority and right to do so. We just have to decide for ourselves if we want to beg and keep prefering the outstanding yet high sanction-prone U.S. equipment or go for alternatives.



If it was a new system, I would agree, if it is say 36-54 EDA F-16s that we can upgrade than worth the risk, US will probably be less likely to mess us around while Afghan Peace deal still not finalised. So this combined with new US Administration maybe a good time.

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## Signalian

PDF said:


> Seven months after incurring the wrath of Washington -- and stiff economic sanctions -- by testing nuclear weapons, Pakistan received a welcome holiday gift this week from the Clinton administration: payment of an IOU worth $464 million, most of it in cash. The money was delivered to reimburse Pakistan for 28 F-16 combat jets it purchased a decade ago but never received. The shipment was blocked -- and the planes placed in escrow in the Arizona desert -- after President George Bush declined to certify that Pakistan was free of atomic weapons and Congress, concluding Pakistan had lied about its nuclear program, imposed restrictions on arms exports.
> 
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1999/01/01/us-pays-pakistan-for-f-16s-withheld-over-nuclear-issue/a996312e-fc47-4818-80c8-c428aa14bde7/
> 
> 
> 
> Got humiliation trying both ways. It doesn't matter we pay or not, if they decide not to release, they have all the authority and right to do so. We just have to decide for ourselves if we want to beg and keep prefering the outstanding yet high sanction-prone U.S. equipment or go for alternatives.


Most recent example is 8 x F-16 Block 52+.

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## Armchair

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Hi,
> 
> I can assure you Pakistan can buy what ever it wants as long as Pakistan pay's for it.
> 
> Thanks.



Hi,

In 1990s we were assured by many. Maybe you are too young to know. I can't forget the taste of the soily, brown wheat that the Americans sent in lieu of the millions of dollars earned by the sweat of Pakistanis.
Short sighted ppl can never learn from the past.
If Pak acts deftly, they may be able to pick up f-16s from third parties. This will only take Trump's approval. But Pak has to act soon before US troops all leave and nothing is left to bargain with.

We saw a smart move with the Jordanian F16s. Another deal like that and PAF can get to the ideal 100 aircraft fleet.

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## denel

Armchair said:


> Hi,
> 
> In 1990s we were assured by many. Maybe you are too young to know. I can't forget the taste of the soily, brown wheat that the Americans sent in lieu of the millions of dollars earned by the sweat of Pakistanis.
> Short sighted ppl can never learn from the past.
> If Pak acts deftly, they may be able to pick up f-16s from third parties. This will only take Trump's approval. But Pak has to act soon before US troops all leave and nothing is left to bargain with.
> 
> We saw a smart move with the Jordanian F16s. Another deal like that and PAF can get to the ideal 100 aircraft fleet.


They should have capitalised and obtained entire stock which was available.

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## WiderMan

An all-AMRAAM fit.

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## truthfollower

PDF said:


> keep prefering the outstanding


yes


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## Raider 21

Armchair said:


> Hi,
> 
> In 1990s we were assured by many. Maybe you are too young to know. I can't forget the taste of the soily, brown wheat that the Americans sent in lieu of the millions of dollars earned by the sweat of Pakistanis.
> Short sighted ppl can never learn from the past.
> If Pak acts deftly, they may be able to pick up f-16s from third parties. This will only take Trump's approval. But Pak has to act soon before US troops all leave and nothing is left to bargain with.
> 
> We saw a smart move with the Jordanian F16s. Another deal like that and PAF can get to the ideal 100 aircraft fleet.


Those millions for PEACE GATE deals, had a lot of Saudi help and financing. That's why the first batch of jets being delivered did a mandatory stop in Saudi Arabia when the American pilots handed over to the newly qualified Pakistani Viper drivers. Anything before delivery via Saudi Arabia was on the US, after that the rest was up to Pakistanis (including the nearly fatal crash during a demo in front of the audience during the induction of Vipers).

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## Nomad40

Raider 21 said:


> Those millions for PEACE GATE deals, had a lot of Saudi help and financing. That's why the first batch of jets being delivered did a mandatory stop in Saudi Arabia when the American pilots handed over to the newly qualified Pakistani Viper drivers. Anything before delivery via Saudi Arabia was on the US, after that the rest was up to Pakistanis (including the nearly fatal crash when during a demo in front of the audience during the induction of Vipers).


Elaborate on the near fatal crash ?

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## spectregunship

Hello everyone....
This is my first every reply on the forum while having been a silent spectator for about over a decade. Can't make tall claims about anything but here is something I want to add : this is the final fleet of F-16s that we have and will maintain for times to come. With the kind geo-politics going around, yanks are not going to be in the mood to release or even talk about sale of big ticket weaponry let alone vipers. As mentioned earlier on this thread about 8 x Blk 52 and case in point our AH1Zs left for storage. All we can do is be happy with these 70 odd majestic machines and re-align our minds for the new decade of 2020s. As much as I love the US systems especially vipers, it is simply hard to absorb the fact but it is what it is. Cheers.

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## baqai

Raider 21 said:


> Those millions for PEACE GATE deals, had a lot of Saudi help and financing. That's why the first batch of jets being delivered did a mandatory stop in Saudi Arabia when the American pilots handed over to the newly qualified Pakistani Viper drivers. Anything before delivery via Saudi Arabia was on the US, after that the rest was up to Pakistanis (including the nearly fatal crash when during a demo in front of the audience during the induction of Vipers).



i would also like to learn about the near fatal crash


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## Trailer23

For as long as I can remember, every page has more or less the same conversation 'bout Pakistan's chances of acquiring additional* F-16's.

* I say additional because there is also the debate about New or Old/Used.

Regardless. the Americans have always played hardball and now realize that Pakistan is getting better at the game too.

Getting more F-16's a debate that can only be addressed after the 2020 Elections.

Pakistan is in no position to pay full price for new Block 70/72. On the flip side, i'd be interested to know what the asking price (per unit) would it cost to get some Block 25/30.

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## Raider 21

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Elaborate on the near fatal crash ?


Viper takes off, gear down, attempts a barrel role. Disappears behind trees and then pulls up.

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## DANGER-ZONE

These were not included in the original contract of MLU & Block-52.

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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> For as long as I can remember, every page has more or less the same conversation 'bout Pakistan's chances of acquiring additional* F-16's.
> 
> * I say additional because there is also the debate about New or Old/Used.
> 
> Regardless. the Americans have always played hardball and now realize that Pakistan is getting better at the game too.
> 
> Getting more F-16's a debate that can only be addressed after the 2020 Elections.
> 
> Pakistan is in no position to pay full price for new Block 70/72. On the flip side, i'd be interested to know what the asking price (per unit) would it cost to get some Block 25/30.


or rather Pakistan doesn't think it brings something to table which they desperately they need

this isnt the 1990s when all that china could offer were f6s/f7 radar less old vintage plans and rest of market was just france vs USA

why would Pakistan spend 4X on a sanctionable jet if it brings nothing new to the table..it wont

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## Falcon26

spectregunship said:


> Hello everyone....
> This is my first every reply on the forum while having been a silent spectator for about over a decade. Can't make tall claims about anything but here is something I want to add : this is the final fleet of F-16s that we have and will maintain for times to come. With the kind geo-politics going around, yanks are not going to be in the mood to release or even talk about sale of big ticket weaponry let alone vipers. As mentioned earlier on this thread about 8 x Blk 52 and case in point our AH1Zs left for storage. All we can do is be happy with these 70 odd majestic machines and re-align our minds for the new decade of 2020s. As much as I love the US systems especially vipers, it is simply hard to absorb the fact but it is what it is. Cheers.



Pakistan has at least $10 billion CSF funds withheld by the US. It is very likely that these funds will be released with the conclusion of the Taliban and afghan government accords. There’s no question about that. The only reason they were held was Pakistan’s inability to satisfy US conditions of bringing the Taliban to the negotiating table. This will become a mute point once a deal is reached between the Afghans. In fact, Pakistan’s value will increase given how Pakistan will become key to the success of the deal.

I wouldn’t discount another major military deal between Pakistan and the US. But it all depends on how Pakistan plays it’s card, which to be brutally honest, isn’t all that impressive.

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## Armchair

I think the time is now. If the Dems win, game is up for Pak anyways. So, PMIK could play this game:

1. Visit the US, get in touch with the Pak community, say good things about Trump
2. Offer a juicy trade deal "to help US industry". Trump loves to make deals. 
3. Deal should be for say, 10 billion dollars (over an insane period of years, say 10 years). Buy US, x, y and z products, perhaps even steel. All these would essentially be useful for Pak and would be bought from other sources anyways. In return, get open license from Trump to purchase third party F-16s and get EDA. 
As well as other NATO military gear. And get all the Afghan retreat equipment. 
4. If PMIK riles up the Pakistanis for Trump, Trump is the kind of guy that doesn't forget a favour. 
5. Pak target should be for an additional 100 F-16s - EDA, third party, doesn't matter where you get them from.

All this talk about waiting after the elections are by people who have no understanding of US politics.

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## Yasser76

Armchair said:


> I think the time is now. If the Dems win, game is up for Pak anyways. So, PMIK could play this game:
> 
> 1. Visit the US, get in touch with the Pak community, say good things about Trump
> 2. Offer a juicy trade deal "to help US industry". Trump loves to make deals.
> 3. Deal should be for say, 10 billion dollars (over an insane period of years, say 10 years). Buy US, x, y and z products, perhaps even steel. All these would essentially be useful for Pak and would be bought from other sources anyways. In return, get open license from Trump to purchase third party F-16s and get EDA.
> As well as other NATO military gear. And get all the Afghan retreat equipment.
> 4. If PMIK riles up the Pakistanis for Trump, Trump is the kind of guy that doesn't forget a favour.
> 5. Pak target should be for an additional 100 F-16s - EDA, third party, doesn't matter where you get them from.
> 
> All this talk about waiting after the elections are by people who have no understanding of US politics.



You are advocating cosying up to Trump 2 weeks prior to an election he may well lose. If there is one way to piss off the Biden presidency it is your suggestion above.

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## Nomad40

Raider 21 said:


> Viper takes off, gear down, attempts a barrel role. Disappears behind trees and then pulls up.


scary stuff.


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## ziaulislam

Falcon26 said:


> Pakistan has at least $10 billion CSF funds withheld by the US. It is very likely that these funds will be released with the conclusion of the Taliban and afghan government accords. There’s no question about that. The only reason they were held was Pakistan’s inability to satisfy US conditions of bringing the Taliban to the negotiating table. This will become a mute point once a deal is reached between the Afghans. In fact, Pakistan’s value will increase given how Pakistan will become key to the success of the deal.
> 
> I wouldn’t discount another major military deal between Pakistan and the US. But it all depends on how Pakistan plays it’s card, which to be brutally honest, isn’t all that impressive.


unlikely that these will be released..do you think congress will accept such a high fund/paycheck..i think it is IMPOSSIBLE..the funds approved are less then 2 billion..


so what pakistan can do or the best case senrio would be to ask the president to use his other powers to compensate for it..for example debt writing off..

pakistan has 20b $ loan from G20 and 20+ from WB/AB/IMF..we should aim for that..get maximum debt relief


Armchair said:


> I think the time is now. If the Dems win, game is up for Pak anyways. So, PMIK could play this game:
> 
> 1. Visit the US, get in touch with the Pak community, say good things about Trump
> 2. Offer a juicy trade deal "to help US industry". Trump loves to make deals.
> 3. Deal should be for say, 10 billion dollars (over an insane period of years, say 10 years). Buy US, x, y and z products, perhaps even steel. All these would essentially be useful for Pak and would be bought from other sources anyways. In return, get open license from Trump to purchase third party F-16s and get EDA.
> As well as other NATO military gear. And get all the Afghan retreat equipment.
> 4. If PMIK riles up the Pakistanis for Trump, Trump is the kind of guy that doesn't forget a favour.
> 5. Pak target should be for an additional 100 F-16s - EDA, third party, doesn't matter where you get them from.
> 
> All this talk about waiting after the elections are by people who have no understanding of US politics.


best think Pakistan can do is to by pass congress..
all they need to do is get a security waiver and buy second hand f16s and conduct a structural upgrade afterwards...
TAI can help with stutural upgrades..

getting new f16s without hard cash is impossible..
getting CSF 12+b $ funds approved from congress is impossible..

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## Falcon26

ziaulislam said:


> unlikely that these will be released..do you think congress will accept such a high fund/paycheck..i think it is IMPOSSIBLE..the funds approved are less then 2 billion..
> 
> 
> so what pakistan can do or the best case senrio would be to ask the president to use his other powers to compensate for it..for example debt writing off..
> 
> pakistan has 20b $ loan from G20 and 20+ from WB/AB/IMF..we should aim for that..get maximum debt relief
> 
> best think Pakistan can do is to by pass congress..
> all they need to do is get a security waiver and buy second hand f16s and conduct a structural upgrade afterwards...
> TAI can help with stutural upgrades..
> 
> getting new f16s without hard cash is impossible..
> getting CSF 12+b $ funds approved from congress is impossible..



It won’t be possible. The money has already been set aside for Pakistan pursuant to state department and pentagon certification that Pakistan is bringing the Taliban to the negotiating table.

_



Briefing reporters, U.S. officials stressed the suspension did not affect civilian aid to Pakistan and that the money could go through if Islamabad took decisive action against the groups.

Click to expand...

_








U.S. suspends at least $900 million in security aid to Pakistan


The United States said on Thursday it was suspending at least $900 million in security assistance to Pakistan until it takes action against the Afghan Taliban and the Haqqani network militant groups.




www.reuters.com


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## ziaulislam

Yasser76 said:


> You are advocating cosying up to Trump 2 weeks prior to an election he may well lose. If there is one way to piss off the Biden presidency it is your suggestion above.


the only reason trump won was he flipped three states penn, Wisconsin and Michigan, all three the lead was less then 0.8%. hiliary won majority last time as well..

so whats the situation in these three states..biden leads all of them by almost double digits.. in other words there is no math to victory for trump..

trump won on the promise of bringing back jobs..that never happened..now biden is running on the sloga..bringin back jobs"..he has several proposals in already..

20% of early votes have been casted..trump is finished..

Pakistan should focus on getting maximum benefits "from the president" any proposal involving congress or too much time should not be pursued..

that means

1. get debt written off instead of waiting for CSF to come
2. Ask for waiver to get third country f16s..this waiver is unlikely to be reversed by the new admin . Used f16 is very inticing avenue. There are several 100s of them available and parts are suppose to be available for foreseeable future ..upgrades can be done at multiple places and we hav a good infrastructure setup already ..advance weapon systems are available(if approved)

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## Yasser76

ziaulislam said:


> the only reason trump won was he flipped three states penn, Wisconsin and Michigan, all three the lead was less then 0.8%. hiliary won majority last time as well..
> 
> so whats the situation in these three states..biden leads all of them by almost double digits.. in other words there is no math to victory for trump..
> 
> trump won on the promise of bringing back jobs..that never happened..now biden is running on the sloga..bringin back jobs"..he has several proposals in already..
> 
> 20% of early votes have been casted..trump is finished..
> 
> Pakistan should focus on getting maximum benefits "from the president" any proposal involving congress or too much time should not be pursued..
> 
> that means
> 
> 1. get debt written off instead of waiting for CSF to come
> 2. Ask for waiver to get third country f16s..this waiver is unlikely to be reversed by the new admin . Used f16 is very inticing avenue. There are several 100s of them available and parts are suppose to be available for foreseeable future ..upgrades can be done at multiple places and we hav a good infrastructure setup already ..advance weapon systems are available(if approved)



I totally agree, used F-16 sales should be a no brainer for US Administration. Helps Pakistan and also very likely that the seller (if say Norway, Netherlands, Belgium) can use the money to buy a couple of more F-35s.


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## Armchair

If Dems win - Pak loses - unfriendly government that cuts up anything for Pak that could possibly come. Jumps on board with India and the Kamala Harris link. 

The logic here is quite simple. Try to think strategically and not the inconclusive way Pak has always done.


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## Neurath

What do you guys think about Pakistan buying ex-turkish F-16s once they start replacing them?


Armchair said:


> If Dems win - Pak loses - unfriendly government that cuts up anything for Pak that could possibly come. Jumps on board with India and the Kamala Harris link.
> 
> The logic here is quite simple. Try to think strategically and not the inconclusive way Pak has always done.


Bro, matter of fact is that both are equally bad for us. Trump will continue to support India, cut military aid to us, while the democrats, meh we already know how they act with us.

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## Imran Khan

Armchair said:


> If Dems win - Pak loses - unfriendly government that cuts up anything for Pak that could possibly come. Jumps on board with India and the Kamala Harris link.
> 
> The logic here is quite simple. Try to think strategically and not the inconclusive way Pak has always done.


my vote for dems hope US stop supplying even screw drivers

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## Armchair

Neurath said:


> What do you guys think about Pakistan buying ex-turkish F-16s once they start replacing them?
> 
> Bro, matter of fact is that both are equally bad for us. Trump will continue to support India, cut military aid to us, while the democrats, meh we already know how they act with us.



Turkey has nothing to replace F-16s with. In any case, will require US approval. The problem isn't sourcing used F-16s, the problem is getting approval. Something that can easily be done by January with Trump. Now. Not later. Now when Biden shows up.


Imran Khan said:


> my vote for dems hope US stop supplying even screw drivers



Pak does not need screw drivers, it needs F-16s. If you need a screw driver, PM me, I'll give you my range of screw drivers. But you will have to come and pick them up from Turkey. 

Trump, whether he wins or loses, can approve used F-16s before January. This is an opportunity missed.


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## Tom_Cruise

Armchair said:


> If Dems win - Pak loses - unfriendly government that cuts up anything for Pak that could possibly come. Jumps on board with India and the Kamala Harris link.
> 
> The logic here is quite simple. Try to think strategically and not the inconclusive way Pak has always done.



Trump is already flirting with India and cut military aid to Pakistan. 

He's hardly been a positive for Pakistan.

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## Neurath

Armchair said:


> Turkey has nothing to replace F-16s with. In any case, will require US approval. The problem isn't sourcing used F-16s, the problem is getting approval.


They have the TF-X coming soon by 2025, we can get a hold on TX-F along with a few F-16s to fill the numbers.


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## North Star

Neurath said:


> They have the TF-X coming soon by 2025, we can get a hold on TX-F along with a few F-16s to fill the numbers.


Yeah TF-X with american engine and equipment ...Go figure.

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## baqai

Trump is a businessman his royalties lies with where the money is, Biden on the other hand is a politician, my hopes are for another tenure of Trump

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## Raider 21

Imran Khan said:


> my vote for dems hope US stop supplying even screw drivers


By that mentality, relay your message to PAF to stop getting flight suits, helmets, material for flight jackets, ejection seat harnesses including the ones being used on JF-17s and start moving to mediocre equipment as long as they're non-American.

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## Imran Khan

Raider 21 said:


> By that mentality, relay your message to PAF to stop getting flight suits, helmets, material for flight jackets, ejection seat harnesses including the ones being used on JF-17s and start moving to mediocre equipment as long as they're non-American.


good idea we should stay away from USA fully


Armchair said:


> Turkey has nothing to replace F-16s with. In any case, will require US approval. The problem isn't sourcing used F-16s, the problem is getting approval. Something that can easily be done by January with Trump. Now. Not later. Now when Biden shows up.
> 
> 
> Pak does not need screw drivers, it needs F-16s. If you need a screw driver, PM me, I'll give you my range of screw drivers. But you will have to come and pick them up from Turkey.
> 
> Trump, whether he wins or loses, can approve used F-16s before January. This is an opportunity missed.


no more US made equpment not even screws . US made military equipment is curse .

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## Raider 21

Imran Khan said:


> good idea we should stay away from USA fully
> 
> no more US made equpment not even screws . US made military equipment is curse .


But it would ground 100% of the fleet. I hope you don't want to see a PAF on the ground because of your dislike for Americans.

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## Amavous

Raider 21 said:


> PAF to stop getting flight suits, helmets, material for flight jackets, ejection seat harnesses



Really? Pakistan cannot make quality G-suits and seat harnesses ?? (genuine question, No sarcasm)

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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> For as long as I can remember, every page has more or less the same conversation 'bout Pakistan's chances of acquiring additional* F-16's.
> 
> * I say additional because there is also the debate about New or Old/Used.
> 
> Regardless. the Americans have always played hardball and now realize that Pakistan is getting better at the game too.
> 
> Getting more F-16's a debate that can only be addressed after the 2020 Elections.
> 
> Pakistan is in no position to pay full price for new Block 70/72. On the flip side, i'd be interested to know what the asking price (per unit) would it cost to get some Block 25/30.


USA would prefer us paying 70m a piece for new block 80(dropped from 100m a piece)

Indonesia got 24 upgraded to latest standard at 700m dollars including training and spears

So around 20-25m at most or even cheaper


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## Raider 21

Amavous said:


> Really? Pakistan cannot make quality G-suits and seat harnesses ?? (genuine question, No sarcasm)


Yes they can't

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## ghazi52

PAF F-16B block 15 #85609 is flying over Pakistan, This aircraft crashed on December 18th, 1986.

The image quality isn't great, but it is a remarkable picture since this aircraft is flying with a Thomson Altis II pod on the chin station. Since the aircraft was only delivered in May of 1985, this shows that the PAF has been using laser designating pods since the introduction of the F-16 in its force.

© Muhammad Salman Baig

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## Amavous

Raider 21 said:


> Yes they can't



Thanks for the bitter truth but a reality check every now and then gives us the true picture of our capabilities and how much dependent we are on foreign vendors.

We always think/discuss Pakistan's plane building capabilities in terms of big-ticket items like engines/radars/avionics/missiles etc. But the truth is we don't even have the basic capabilities to make good quality items like glass canopy/landing gare lights/G-suits etc.

We are always mindful to have enough replacement engines for thunders, but in reality, a JF-17 will also be grounded if we have to replace its broken glass canopy because we have to import it from china. Come to think of it, I guess we don't even have the capability to produce aviation-grade tyres.

We have a LONG way to go, a really LONG way to be a true plane building nation.

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## Imran Khan

Raider 21 said:


> But it would ground 100% of the fleet. I hope you don't want to see a PAF on the ground because of your dislike for Americans.


i wish they ground and scrap all f-16 today and demolish them 

pakistan can not be a free country until we are chained with US made defense equpment 

this should be done with f-16s

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## Inception-06

Imran Khan said:


> i wish they ground and scrap all f-16 today and demolish them
> 
> pakistan can not be a free country until we are chained with US made defense equpment
> 
> this should be done with f-16s
> View attachment 680717
> 
> 
> View attachment 680718
> 
> View attachment 680719



I absolutely agree, F-16s could not duty during the Kargil war, as requested !


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## Raider 21

Imran Khan said:


> i wish they ground and scrap all f-16 today and demolish them
> 
> pakistan can not be a free country until we are chained with US made defense equpment
> 
> this should be done with f-16s
> View attachment 680717
> 
> 
> View attachment 680718
> 
> View attachment 680719


Cute

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## Yasser76

Raider 21 said:


> Yes they can't



Just because we CAN make something does not mean we SHOULD. Why start making high spec flight suit kit when we will only ever need a few hundred every year? We simply cannot start making everything we need in small numbers. No economies of scale in that.

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## ziaulislam

Amavous said:


> Thanks for the bitter truth but a reality check every now and then gives us the true picture of our capabilities and how much dependent we are on foreign vendors.
> 
> We always think/discuss Pakistan's plane building capabilities in terms of big-ticket items like engines/radars/avionics/missiles etc. But the truth is we don't even have the basic capabilities to make good quality items like glass canopy/landing gare lights/G-suits etc.
> 
> We are always mindful to have enough replacement engines for thunders, but in reality, a JF-17 will also be grounded if we have to replace its broken glass canopy because we have to import it from china. Come to think of it, I guess we don't even have the capability to produce aviation-grade tyres.
> 
> We have a LONG way to go, a really LONG way to be a true plane building nation.


It simply because since the destruction of industries in 1970s and when sharifs came in 1985 we decided to work on dubai model(numerous times reiterate by sharifs/zardari) that is import import and import

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## Neurath

North Star said:


> Yeah TF-X with american engine and equipment ...Go figure.


They're working on a BAE systems engine and Turkey's also developing one of its own. American engine will be there only in the beginning.


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## Armchair

It is not a question of whether Pakistan or China can make g suits and seat harnesses. As PShamim showed us, many purchases are made by PAF officers for personal benefit. When they help purchase something from LM, after retirement they can often settle in the US and get a cushy job as "reward". 

Secondly, not everything has to be made in Pakistan. There is something called economies of scale and economies of scope. Pak isn't North Korea. If Pak wants to, surely they can make tires for JF-17s. But that won't be economically wise when a cheap and easy source(s) is available.

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## Trailer23



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## Trailer23

Link: F-16 Fighting Falcon (by HMH Publications)
@Raider 21 @Hodor @airomerix @Windjammer 















​

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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> View attachment 680843​


Very sharp fighter pilot. Ejected out of a Viper in the nineties.

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## Nomad40

Amavous said:


> Thanks for the bitter truth but a reality check every now and then gives us the true picture of our capabilities and how much dependent we are on foreign vendors.
> 
> We always think/discuss Pakistan's plane building capabilities in terms of big-ticket items like engines/radars/avionics/missiles etc. But the truth is we don't even have the basic capabilities to make good quality items like glass canopy/landing gare lights/G-suits etc.
> 
> We are always mindful to have enough replacement engines for thunders, but in reality, a JF-17 will also be grounded if we have to replace its broken glass canopy because we have to import it from china. Come to think of it, I guess we don't even have the capability to produce aviation-grade tyres.
> 
> We have a LONG way to go, a really LONG way to be a true plane building nation.


Are you serious ?


----------



## Amavous

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Are you serious ?



Well Yes, pretty serious.

All I am saying is that we don't have the industrial base yet, to be a true weapon producing nation. Most Weapon systems we claim to be indigenous are actually foreign-made, we just optimize/customize and to some extent localize them to our specific needs.

Truth is that most developing nations like Pakistan/India/Iran/Turkey are not much capable on their own when it comes to military hardware production. Turkey is the only country at the moment which is going in the right direction and will be a true weapon producing country in 15-20 years.

The rest of these nations just buy and import different subsystems and combine/manipulate them to create the so-called indigenous weapon system. If foreign vendors stop providing them with these subsystems, they will not have much left.

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## Nomad40

Amavous said:


> Well Yes, pretty serious.
> 
> All I am saying is that we don't have the industrial base yet, to be a true weapon producing nation. Most Weapon systems we claim to be indigenous are actually foreign-made, we just optimize/customize and to some extent localize them to our specific needs.
> 
> Truth is that most developing nations like Pakistan/India/Iran/Turkey are not much capable on their own when it comes to military hardware production. Turkey is the only country at the moment which is going in the right direction and will be a true weapon producing country in 15-20 years.
> 
> The rest of these nations just buy and import different subsystems and combine/manipulate them to create the so-called indigenous weapon system. If foreign vendors stop providing them with these subsystems, they will not have much left.


F-16 forum 

But what you have said here is not asserted to the argument that you made previously, Weapon producing is I believe what you call Arm's/Defence industries and we are pretty sufficient, Our armed forces are setting examples that have never been done before. Since you spoke of the Jf-17 I would like to remind you that is developed, designed, manufactured and so on by The PAF (armed force) for their own use in conjunction with Chinese Air craft Corporation----Key word corporation. 


many defense related equipment are not produced by countries/Nation but are by private companies and how those companies are embedded are through funding and facilitation through GOV and this is where I agree that Pakistan right now is not a very attractive base for defense companies.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Armchair said:


> If Dems win - Pak loses - unfriendly government that cuts up anything for Pak that could possibly come. Jumps on board with India and the Kamala Harris link.
> 
> The logic here is quite simple. Try to think strategically and not the inconclusive way Pak has always done.


IMO the facts don't necessarily point to that conclusion.

Be it the Reps or Dems, the US isn't going to change its tract on Pakistan.

Yes, the degree of harshness can vary between one administration or the other, but the general point is the same: cut Pakistan out.

India isn't going to play 100% ball on China if there's a strong Pakistan out and about. So, the US will either work to proactively stop sensitive transfer of arms to Pakistan, or not do anything to support it.

Obama had shown a willingness to transfer arms that could drive counter-insurgency (COIN) operations, but only specific types of weapons, and in limited quantities. So, the approval of 15 AH-1Z and 8 F-16 Block-52+ was totally tenable (and it happened under Obama), but I doubt we'd see them approve anything more substantial.

Trump was just a jerk. He was a jerk to Pakistan, to Canada, to Europe, to Asia and pretty much anyone else who could show him up. You'd literally have to be a bully-magnet to get on Trump's good side.

Moving forward, Pakistan isn't going to get a thing from either party in the US. Islamabad's best step forward is to limit its ties with Washington to 'professional matters' -- i.e., get 3rd-party ITAR transfers for core inputs like engines (CTS800, LM2500, etc), electronics, OBOGS, steel, etc. Don't do anything to actively upset them (unless you want to pick that fight), but don't do them any favours.

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## The Raven

The discussion about the US is moot in any case. Aside from a last 'swansong' for the PAF and additional used/new Vipers are acquired, the days of Pakistan acquiring anything substantial from the US, either through hard cash or subsidised, are quickly drawing to a close. it's not as if Pakistan has any realistic option of say the F-35, for example.

But that's a growing trend among emerging regional powers in any case, nations are looking for in-house development or collaboration with partners that don't have any political strings attached, e.g. Turkey (TFX, T-129, Milgem etc), Korea and Indonesia (KFX), and even the US' next prodigy India isn't keen to become under the yolk of the US. Only the Gulf Arabs are willing to acquire substantial US hardware, but those days look numbered as well.

The US aerospace defence majors will find it difficult to sell big ticket items, instead smaller turnkey technology suppliers from the west are likely to gain more traction in terms of supplying critical enabling technologies for developing defence programmes around the world, and this is where Pakistan should focus next.

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## Yasser76

The Raven said:


> The discussion about the US is moot in any case. Aside from a last 'swansong' for the PAF and additional used/new Vipers are acquired, the days of Pakistan acquiring anything substantial from the US, either through hard cash or subsidised, are quickly drawing to a close. it's not as if Pakistan has any realistic option of say the F-35, for example.
> 
> But that's a growing trend among emerging regional powers in any case, nations are looking for in-house development or collaboration with partners that don't have any political strings attached, e.g. Turkey (TFX, T-129, Milgem etc), Korea and Indonesia (KFX), and even the US' next prodigy India isn't keen to become under the yolk of the US. Only the Gulf Arabs are willing to acquire substantial US hardware, but those days look numbered as well.
> 
> The US aerospace defence majors will find it difficult to sell big ticket items, instead smaller turnkey technology suppliers from the west are likely to gain more traction in terms of supplying critical enabling technologies for developing defence programmes around the world, and this is where Pakistan should focus next.



Certainly I would say yes in the immediate future, but with US-Pak it is always wise to never say never.

Post 1965, Post 1971, Post 1979, Post 2001 we saw US-Pak interests realign and weapons supplies resume. You are right, nations now looking for more internal solutions, and personally I also think Chinese systems will out class US systems around 20 years from now, but never say never.....

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## The Raven

Yasser76 said:


> Certainly I would say yes in the immediate future, but with US-Pak it is always wise to never say never.
> 
> Post 1965, Post 1971, Post 1979, Post 2001 we saw US-Pak interests realign and weapons supplies resume. You are right, nations now looking for more internal solutions, and personally I also think Chinese systems will out class US systems around 20 years from now, but never say never.....




I agree, never say never, but there would have to be a monumental realigning of interests to ever see the day the F-35 flies in PAF colours.


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## Yasser76

The Raven said:


> I agree, never say never, but there would have to be a monumental realigning of interests to ever see the day the F-35 flies in PAF colours.



Agreed, Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and 9/11 were monumental events. It happens at times. Who knows what happens in the future. Pak v Iran, US can realign with China like in 70s, Muslim fundementalists take over Saudi, India can become anti-US. These things sound far fetched but we are living in crazy times....

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## mshan44



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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO the facts don't necessarily point to that conclusion.
> 
> Be it the Reps or Dems, the US isn't going to change its tract on Pakistan.
> 
> Yes, the degree of harshness can vary between one administration or the other, but the general point is the same: cut Pakistan out.
> 
> India isn't going to play 100% ball on China if there's a strong Pakistan out and about. So, the US will either work to proactively stop sensitive transfer of arms to Pakistan, or not do anything to support it.
> 
> Obama had shown a willingness to transfer arms that could drive counter-insurgency (COIN) operations, but only specific types of weapons, and in limited quantities. So, the approval of 15 AH-1Z and 8 F-16 Block-52+ was totally tenable (and it happened under Obama), but I doubt we'd see them approve anything more substantial.
> 
> Trump was just a jerk. He was a jerk to Pakistan, to Canada, to Europe, to Asia and pretty much anyone else who could show him up. You'd literally have to be a bully-magnet to get on Trump's good side.
> 
> Moving forward, Pakistan isn't going to get a thing from either party in the US. Islamabad's best step forward is to limit its ties with Washington to 'professional matters' -- i.e., get 3rd-party ITAR transfers for core inputs like engines (CTS800, LM2500, etc), electronics, OBOGS, steel, etc. Don't do anything to actively upset them (unless you want to pick that fight), but don't do them any favours.


Based on my views, US has never been reliable partner to majority of countries outside NATU/JA/IA. Any solution going forward must have ITAR Free requirements as a compulsory mandate across any equipment or component with forceful push towards local suppliers and mandatory local manufacturing right down to subcontracting suppliers.

TiT has guaranteed that US cannot be counted on in any form.

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO the facts don't necessarily point to that conclusion.
> 
> Be it the Reps or Dems, the US isn't going to change its tract on Pakistan.
> 
> Yes, the degree of harshness can vary between one administration or the other, but the general point is the same: cut Pakistan out.
> 
> India isn't going to play 100% ball on China if there's a strong Pakistan out and about. So, the US will either work to proactively stop sensitive transfer of arms to Pakistan, or not do anything to support it.
> 
> Obama had shown a willingness to transfer arms that could drive counter-insurgency (COIN) operations, but only specific types of weapons, and in limited quantities. So, the approval of 15 AH-1Z and 8 F-16 Block-52+ was totally tenable (and it happened under Obama), but I doubt we'd see them approve anything more substantial.
> 
> Trump was just a jerk. He was a jerk to Pakistan, to Canada, to Europe, to Asia and pretty much anyone else who could show him up. You'd literally have to be a bully-magnet to get on Trump's good side.
> 
> Moving forward, Pakistan isn't going to get a thing from either party in the US. Islamabad's best step forward is to limit its ties with Washington to 'professional matters' -- i.e., get 3rd-party ITAR transfers for core inputs like engines (CTS800, LM2500, etc), electronics, OBOGS, steel, etc. Don't do anything to actively upset them (unless you want to pick that fight), but don't do them any favours.


What i hope is they do engage USA to get CSF funds through loan waivers ..Pakistan has over 40 billion dollars in loans to USA and its group

Musharraf got alot of debt written off and rest reschedule..
I hope IK achieves that..
Getting hard cash wont be easy given congress never really likes to pass funds


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## Chak Bamu

ziaulislam said:


> It simply because since the destruction of industries in 1970s and when sharifs came in 1985 we decided to work on dubai model(numerous times reiterate by sharifs/zardari) that is import import and import


Please leave economics & politics out of this discussion.

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## araz

Chak Bamu said:


> Please leave economics & politics out of this discussion.


With all due respects to my brother, politics and economics are the two big elephants in the room when it comes to Pak US relations and hence the acquisition of F16s. If only the US did not make weapons of such quality!!!!!
A

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## Scorpiooo

Do any body have idea how much EDA upgraded to V standard will cost ?

Will this cost differ if buy used f16 from third party


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## Tair-Lahoti

Scorpiooo said:


> Do any body have idea how much EDA upgraded to V standard will cost ?
> 
> Will this cost differ if buy used f16 from third party


An upgrade package to bring the existing 23 F-16 Block 50/52+ up to the very similar F-16V standard plus the related equipment for an estimated cost of $985.2 million.




__





Morocco – F-16 Block 52+ Upgrade to F-16V Configuration | Defense Security Cooperation Agency







www.dsca.mil





It might help you to calculate

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## Scorpiooo

Tair-Lahoti said:


> An upgrade package to bring the existing 23 F-16 Block 50/52+ up to the very similar F-16V standard plus the related equipment for an estimated cost of $985.2 million.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Morocco – F-16 Block 52+ Upgrade to F-16V Configuration | Defense Security Cooperation Agency
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dsca.mil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It might help you to calculate


Thanks for sharing, IMO as i am not expert concersion for block 50/52 will be cheaper then old blocks 
EDA or used 3rd party, will block 32 or 42 at max


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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> Based on my views, US has never been reliable partner to majority of countries outside NATU/JA/IA. Any solution going forward must have ITAR Free requirements as a compulsory mandate across any equipment or component with forceful push towards local suppliers and mandatory local manufacturing right down to subcontracting suppliers.
> 
> TiT has guaranteed that US cannot be counted on in any form.



@denel,

Pakistan never knew how to work the US to its advantage---. No pakistani general or leader tried to learn how to talk to the americans and what we see is the result of that.

After 9/11 US presented itself to pakistan on a PLATTER---and the pakistanis fckd up worst than bad---.

The second chance was Yemen war---. I never wrote openly---but most of you guys thought the intervention would for fighting---. Maybe some fighting to show your commitment---but more so of power positioning and let the saudi military take the brunt---and pak military stayed behind and provided more of a logistical / tactical support and presence and possibly act as a peace maker---while strengthening its military position at the expense of the GCC---.

The Yemen war crisis would have been a game changer for pakistan to build its strength economically and militarily---but many a minds only thought of killings---which could have been avoided to a large extent.

Form being in a position of a " POWER BROKER " pakistan is back to be in a state of eternal confusion---.

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## denel

MastanKhan said:


> @denel,
> 
> Pakistan never knew how to work the US to its advantage---. No pakistani general or leader tried to learn how to talk to the americans and what we see is the result of that.
> 
> After 9/11 US presented itself to pakistan on a patter---and the pakistanis fckd up worst than bad---.
> 
> The second chance was Yemen war---. I never wrote openly---but most of you guys thought the intervention would for fighting---. Maybe some fighting to show your commitment---but more so of power positioning and let the saudi military take the brunt---and pak military stayed behind and provided more of a logistical / tactical support and presence and possibly act as a peace maker---while strengthening its military position at the expense of the GCC---.
> 
> The Yemen war crisis would have been a game changer for pakistan to build its strength economically and militarily---but many a minds only thought of killings---which could have been avoided to a large extent.
> 
> Form being in a position of a " POWER BROKER " pakistan is back to be in a state of eternal confusion---.


I would second your thoughts. For the US, there was no strategic engagement - it was just what was consequential after effect.

I would continue to disagree with you in Yemen - Why do you want Pak forces to participate in genocide dictated by the manical Salman. That man has blood on his hands of the innocent. Sorry my friend, there is a line to draw and I am glad that Pak chose not to go in with these hyenas. True it affects financially; but I ask is the blood of innocent children and women this donkey Salman has taken justifiable. It is not.

Pak needs to take a stand and it did - by not supporting genocide against fellow moslems. That too by a family proclaiming itself as Custodian of Holy places.

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## Trailer23

FYI: It (still) does not exist...
















@Hodor @Raider 21 @airomerix

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## MastanKhan

denel said:


> I would second your thoughts. For the US, there was no strategic engagement - it was just what was consequential after effect.
> 
> I would continue to disagree with you in Yemen - Why do you want Pak forces to participate in genocide dictated by the manical Salman. That man has blood on his hands of the innocent. Sorry my friend, there is a line to draw and I am glad that Pak chose not to go in with these hyenas. True it affects financially; but I ask is the blood of innocent children and women this donkey Salman has taken justifiable. It is not.
> 
> Pak needs to take a stand and it did - by not supporting genocide against fellow moslems. That too by a family proclaiming itself as Custodian of Holy places.



Hi,

Yemen was british east india compnay moment for pakista first of all.

An age old adage holds true to this day keep your boundaries farthest away from your capital. Keep your outposts farthest and build and build you military posts at tactical and strategic points.

Setting foot in yemen with the permission of the USA and Britain---pakistan's position woulad have changed tactically---. It would have another vantage point against its arch enemy and a large force at disposal---.

DSoes the US military wooried that a few thousand american troops would die in skirmishes---no. It rather looks at issues keenly and finds way to BLOOD ITS SOLDIERS---.

Just look at the golden years of muslim rule---. No one sat in their mosques to pray 5 times a day---but the young men joined the military for foreign conquest---.

But why would the crisis in Yemen would turn as bloody as it is today---. Pak military would not have let that happen.

Instead of having around 150 K troops in the GCC with full military might---pakistan's power position has shrivelled to a miniscule---.

When yemen the houthis decided to play the tune of the iranians---they sign on their own death warrant---. There is no genocide in yemen.

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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Yemen was british east india compnay moment for pakista first of all.
> 
> An age old adage holds true to this day keep your boundaries farthest away from your capital. Keep your outposts farthest and build and build you military posts at tactical and strategic points.
> 
> Setting foot in yemen with the permission of the USA and Britain---pakistan's position woulad have changed tactically---. It would have another vantage point against its arch enemy and a large force at disposal---.
> 
> DSoes the US military wooried that a few thousand american troops would die in skirmishes---no. It rather looks at issues keenly and finds way to BLOOD ITS SOLDIERS---.
> 
> Just look at the golden years of muslim rule---. No one sat in their mosques to pray 5 times a day---but the young men joined the military for foreign conquest---.
> 
> But why would the crisis in Yemen would turn as bloody as it is today---. Pak military would not have let that happen.
> 
> Instead of having around 150 K troops in the GCC with full military might---pakistan's power position has shrivelled to a miniscule---.
> 
> When yemen the houthis decided to play the tune of the iranians---they sign on their own death warrant---. There is no genocide in yemen.


Pakistan's power position will be fine but why didn't you go and offer your services and those of your kids to the cause?

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## monitor

One of first F-16s of #Pakistan Airforce #PAF in flight over Florida before delivery. (Circa 1980s)



11:16 PM · Oct 23, 2020·Twitter for iPhone

3
Retweets

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## MastanKhan

GriffinsRule said:


> Pakistan's power position will be fine but why didn't you go and offer your services and those of your kids to the cause?




" 

Sultan Salahuddin Ayubi was told by his spies
There is a religious scholar who speaks very well, has become very popular among the people.
Sultan said say it forward
Spy said ′′ something is wrong we are feeling but can't explain in words ′′
The Sultan said, ′′ Tell me what you have seen and heard ′′
Spy said they say ′′ Jihad of self is superior, educating children is the best jihad, fighting for the responsibilities of the house is also a jihad.
If Sultan said, is there any doubt about it??
The detective said they have no doubt but the scholar says:
′′ What did you get from wars?? Only murders and dead bodies fell, wars either made you a murderer or a murderer ′′
Sultan rose restless, at the same time decided to meet the scholar, disguised the meeting and as soon as he left, he asked, ′′ Sir, tell me a recipe that Bait ul Muqaddas can be free and the atrocities against Muslims can be abolished without war??" We are going to have a good
The scholar said pray
Sultan's face turned red with anger, he had thought that this scholar is more dangerous than the whole crusade army
Sultan first cut the finger of that scholar with his dagger, he started screaming badly.
Now the Sultan said, do you tell the truth or should I cut my neck too?
The Sultan found that his teaching was now common in sermons, it was very difficult to stop this mischief.
This mischief is still running through the whole water.
Why do people want to convert Islam into Buddhism? Whereas the clear fact is that without facing the oppressor, it is not possible that oppression can be recovered. "

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## Aspen

Armchair said:


> I think the time is now. If the Dems win, game is up for Pak anyways. So, PMIK could play this game:
> 
> 1. Visit the US, get in touch with the Pak community, say good things about Trump
> 2. Offer a juicy trade deal "to help US industry". Trump loves to make deals.
> 3. Deal should be for say, 10 billion dollars (over an insane period of years, say 10 years). Buy US, x, y and z products, perhaps even steel. All these would essentially be useful for Pak and would be bought from other sources anyways. In return, get open license from Trump to purchase third party F-16s and get EDA.
> As well as other NATO military gear. And get all the Afghan retreat equipment.
> 4. If PMIK riles up the Pakistanis for Trump, Trump is the kind of guy that doesn't forget a favour.
> 5. Pak target should be for an additional 100 F-16s - EDA, third party, doesn't matter where you get them from.
> 
> All this talk about waiting after the elections are by people who have no understanding of US politics.



Fully agree 100%, this is exactly what I would do if I was IK.

I think people on here often forget how bad Obama years were for Pakistan. Those 8 years of Democrats were worst years for Pakistan since TTP emerged. Terrorism in Pakistan was at its peak and Pakistan security situation was at its worst in decades under Obama years.

Trump has been excellent on some areas of foreign policy, withdrawing support for Kurds and aligning with Erdogan in Syria, North Korea meeting, and pulling out of Afghanistan/Iraq are amazing moves that were good for peace. He got US astronauts back into space and always called out corrupt media on their bullshit. The corrupt Wall Street mafia hated Trump because he always spoke openly on Twitter with no filter. It flew under radar of a lot of people when Trump said during the debate that there is no reason US needs to be hostile with Russia, peace is better for the world, of course, Democrats hate peace and they want to keep Russia as enemy of US for no reason, otherwise American people will wake up and realize that corrupt media, DC lobbyists, and corporate Democrats are the true enemy of American people. Trump was excellent for creating more American jobs. We may never have a President like Trump who had the balls to do stuff like that again and I'm gonna miss that a lot.

It's gonna suck so bad when establishment Democrats get elected under Biden and get back into bed with India like terrible Obama days.

Under Obama, US created mess in Syria and Libya, ISIS became huge threat to the world, and who can forget 2011 raid in Pakistan. Obama left a trail of destruction across the world. This is what we will get if we elect Biden. I also hate Obama's guts because I work in aerospace sector and Obama killed the Space Shuttle program that was important for my work. All Obama was good at was signing free trade deals that sold all our jobs overseas and throwing American people like me to the dogs. This is what Democrats will do. They put on fake smile and pretend to show empathy and fake tears while profiting from brutal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan massacring children with record number of drone strikes and looting the US economy with shitty healthcare and elite corporate mafias swimming in DC like sharks, and dining in expensive restaurants with AIPAC Israeli Zionist lobby while pretending to support Palestinians. Democrats are absolutely desperate to do anything to prevent Trump from pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan because then Democrats military cash cow will be gone and US will no longer be able to profit from killing Muslim children with drone strikes like under Obama. Corporate Democrats embody worst evil of humanity. Trump is nightmare for Democrats because he calls out their bullshit while all Democrats can do is play fake identity politics by pandering to LGBTQ and other fake genders.

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## PakFactor

MastanKhan said:


> "
> 
> Sultan Salahuddin Ayubi was told by his spies
> There is a religious scholar who speaks very well, has become very popular among the people.
> Sultan said say it forward
> Spy said ′′ something is wrong we are feeling but can't explain in words ′′
> The Sultan said, ′′ Tell me what you have seen and heard ′′
> Spy said they say ′′ Jihad of self is superior, educating children is the best jihad, fighting for the responsibilities of the house is also a jihad.
> If Sultan said, is there any doubt about it??
> The detective said they have no doubt but the scholar says:
> ′′ What did you get from wars?? Only murders and dead bodies fell, wars either made you a murderer or a murderer ′′
> Sultan rose restless, at the same time decided to meet the scholar, disguised the meeting and as soon as he left, he asked, ′′ Sir, tell me a recipe that Bait ul Muqaddas can be free and the atrocities against Muslims can be abolished without war??" We are going to have a good
> The scholar said pray
> Sultan's face turned red with anger, he had thought that this scholar is more dangerous than the whole crusade army
> Sultan first cut the finger of that scholar with his dagger, he started screaming badly.
> Now the Sultan said, do you tell the truth or should I cut my neck too?
> The Sultan found that his teaching was now common in sermons, it was very difficult to stop this mischief.
> This mischief is still running through the whole water.
> Why do people want to convert Islam into Buddhism? Whereas the clear fact is that without facing the oppressor, it is not possible that oppression can be recovered. "



Sadly even Saladin had to face useless Liberals.

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## Raider 21

monitor said:


> One of first F-16s of #Pakistan Airforce #PAF in flight over Florida before delivery. (Circa 1980s)
> 
> 
> 
> 11:16 PM · Oct 23, 2020·Twitter for iPhone
> 
> 3
> Retweets


When I scanned it for some reason it came out black and white. I have the coloured version of this at home.

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## Armchair

Aspen said:


> Fully agree 100%, this is exactly what I would do if I was IK.
> 
> I think people on here often forget how bad Obama years were for Pakistan. Those 8 years of Democrats were worst years for Pakistan since TTP emerged. Terrorism in Pakistan was at its peak and Pakistan security situation was at its worst in decades under Obama years.
> 
> Trump has been excellent on some areas of foreign policy, withdrawing support for Kurds and aligning with Erdogan in Syria, North Korea meeting, and pulling out of Afghanistan/Iraq are amazing moves that were good for peace. He got US astronauts back into space and always called out corrupt media on their bullshit. The corrupt Wall Street mafia hated Trump because he always spoke openly on Twitter with no filter. It flew under radar of a lot of people when Trump said during the debate that there is no reason US needs to be hostile with Russia, peace is better for the world, of course, Democrats hate peace and they want to keep Russia as enemy of US for no reason, otherwise American people will wake up and realize that corrupt media, DC lobbyists, and corporate Democrats are the true enemy of American people. Trump was excellent for creating more American jobs. We may never have a President like Trump who had the balls to do stuff like that again and I'm gonna miss that a lot.
> 
> It's gonna suck so bad when establishment Democrats get elected under Biden and get back into bed with India like terrible Obama days.
> 
> Under Obama, US created mess in Syria and Libya, ISIS became huge threat to the world, and who can forget 2011 raid in Pakistan. Obama left a trail of destruction across the world. This is what we will get if we elect Biden. I also hate Obama's guts because I work in aerospace sector and Obama killed the Space Shuttle program that was important for my work. All Obama was good at was signing free trade deals that sold all our jobs overseas and throwing American people like me to the dogs. This is what Democrats will do. They put on fake smile and pretend to show empathy and fake tears while profiting from brutal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan massacring children with record number of drone strikes and looting the US economy with shitty healthcare and elite corporate mafias swimming in DC like sharks, and dining in expensive restaurants with AIPAC Israeli Zionist lobby while pretending to support Palestinians. Democrats are absolutely desperate to do anything to prevent Trump from pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan because then Democrats military cash cow will be gone and US will no longer be able to profit from killing Muslim children with drone strikes like under Obama. Corporate Democrats embody worst evil of humanity. Trump is nightmare for Democrats because he calls out their bullshit while all Democrats can do is play fake identity politics by pandering to LGBTQ and other fake genders.



Mark my words my friend, Trump is winning and will win the elections. Another no show for Pak foreign policy, sadly unable to capitalize on anything anywhere. Another decade of PAF trying to decide what to do with the F-16s...

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## Irfan Baloch

Yasser76 said:


> I am 44 now, but thank you for the young man compliment.
> 
> Try sticking to the debate on Chinese military tech innovation.
> 
> You are right about US destroying many countries but that is another argument. Pakistan's 500,000 strong world class army and nuclear weapons are the main reasons US tanks are not parked outside my ancestral village in Rawalpindi district.....


For Americans our army size and nukes mean nothing. they dont need to fight entire force.
they blind you silence you cripple your C&C and kill few thousands and send few hundred to take over.
there is simply nothing stopping them. 


they are warriors and conquerors by design. their weapons are unmatched. F16s the design of the 70s. but are still among the best jets.

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## MastanKhan

Irfan Baloch said:


> For Americans our army size and nukes mean nothing. they dont need to fight entire force.
> they blind you silence you cripple your C&C and kill few thousands and send few hundred to take over.
> there is simply nothing stopping them.
> 
> 
> they are warriors and conquerors by design. their weapons are unmatched. F16s the design of the 70s. but are still among the best jets.




Hi,

Thank you very much for that post. 

The F16---one of the finest machines ever built---one of the finest war fighting machines on the face of this earth that no other enemy of the US has an answer to---and that machine is 50 years old.

The most beautiful, the most functional, the most utilitarian, the most lethal fighting machine that the man has ever built in a time where the technology is changing in leaps and bounds in years and yet after almost 5 decades---this machine still has its place in the top marvels of air defense air superiority and general weaponry---.

The americans wiped out a whole civilization of american indians without and ounce of remorse---they slaughtered the animal population and wiped out herds which would number in the 100's of thousand just for their animal skin---.

They have out done the killing of the mongols, the huns, the german and the other wannabees.

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## Yasser76

Irfan Baloch said:


> For Americans our army size and nukes mean nothing. they dont need to fight entire force.
> they blind you silence you cripple your C&C and kill few thousands and send few hundred to take over.
> there is simply nothing stopping them.
> 
> 
> they are warriors and conquerors by design. their weapons are unmatched. F16s the design of the 70s. but are still among the best jets.



No one is denying how modern warfare is fought, or how good the F-16 is. Anyone will tell you that in order to occupy a country physically you need to capture and hold ground. This is my point. Even when invading Iraq, the US, with all it's sophisticated assets, still need to fight Iraqi Army on the ground. The Pakistan Army is not the Iraqi Army.


----------



## Armchair

American culture has degenerated. They are not what they used to be.

You can see that they are unable to design something that is a contemporary equivalent of the F16.

Anyone could kill of endless millions of native americans, there is no genius to it. Germany was mainly defeated by the Soviets.

America failed in Korea against a primitive China, whose army back then was far worse than Pakistan. They were beaten black and blue and sent home humiliated. Despite having endless allies.

Vietnam was another loss. Pakistanis need to get rid of the Macauley Syndrome and realize how strong they are.

Let us assume that the US sends its entire fleet to attack Pakistan. A single nuke would sink 80% of that fleet due to the nature of an underwater explosion. 

The entire USN fighter component does not match PAF for numbers on even their largest deployment.

American bomber fleet is at its historic smallest. 

A couple of hundred US soldiers taking over is a fantasy and a dream only of the most mentally defeated people. A colonized nation takes 40 years to overcome its mental domination but because the institions of the colonial order are alive and well in Pakistan, we are seeing this kind of mindset still.

Sad. The enemies of Pakistan reading this thread are laughing.

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## Irfan Baloch

Yasser76 said:


> No one is denying how modern warfare is fought, or how good the F-16 is. Anyone will tell you that in order to occupy a country physically you need to capture and hold ground. This is my point. Even when invading Iraq, the US, with all it's sophisticated assets, still need to fight Iraqi Army on the ground. The Pakistan Army is not the Iraqi Army.


we can leave this discussion for another thread.

coming back to discussion. I recall watching with video before we acquired the F 16 block 52 and I was praying that the sale does go through and they land in our air bases.








Armchair said:


> American culture has degenerated. They are not what they used to be.
> 
> You can see that they are unable to design something that is a contemporary equivalent of the F16.
> 
> Anyone could kill of endless millions of native americans, there is no genius to it. Germany was mainly defeated by the Soviets.
> 
> America failed in Korea against a primitive China, whose army back then was far worse than Pakistan. They were beaten black and blue and sent home humiliated. Despite having endless allies.
> 
> Vietnam was another loss. Pakistanis need to get rid of the Macauley Syndrome and realize how strong they are.
> 
> Let us assume that the US sends its entire fleet to attack Pakistan. A single nuke would sink 80% of that fleet due to the nature of an underwater explosion.
> 
> The entire USN fighter component does not match PAF for numbers on even their largest deployment.
> 
> American bomber fleet is at its historic smallest.
> 
> A couple of hundred US soldiers taking over is a fantasy and a dream only of the most mentally defeated people. A colonized nation takes 40 years to overcome its mental domination but because the institions of the colonial order are alive and well in Pakistan, we are seeing this kind of mindset still.
> 
> Sad. The enemies of Pakistan reading this thread are laughing.



in Korea alone they killed over 5 million. vietnam number is unknown. they nuked Japan twice despite Japan already willing to surrender. nothing could prevent them to nuke Vietnam or Korea as well. America remains the top most sought after place for scientists, innovators and researchers, whatever they are doing in places like area 51 are beyond our imagination. there is no dearth of abilities to produce world leading technologies.

as for their abilities to produce world class and world leading technologies is concerned, they are still on top. it is the Americans that have continued to keep the F-16s current to the modern day. they didnt need to duplicate a platform like that. the only closer larger cousin is the F-15.

lets leave that discussion for another thread about American war history

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## StructE

Irfan Baloch said:


> For Americans our army size and nukes mean nothing. they dont need to fight entire force.
> they blind you silence you cripple your C&C and kill few thousands and send few hundred to take over.
> there is simply nothing stopping them.
> 
> 
> they are warriors and conquerors by design. their weapons are unmatched. F16s the design of the 70s. but are still among the best jets.


Achieving limited objectives is something (with its own set of consequences) in war plans but taking over a country size of Pakistan is another. It is not possible for US with her might to go after Pakistan on ground. 
There is significant risk even with limited objective interference also. US don't know location of each and every warhead, what they will miss will be dropped on US bases and allies.
Just one nuclear warhead dropped on a US base will ruin the majority party's prospects for a decade or more, it is just a non starter, only thing keeping Iran and North Korea safe is the possibility of actual operational WMD's.


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## MastanKhan

Yasser76 said:


> No one is denying how modern warfare is fought, or how good the F-16 is. Anyone will tell you that in order to occupy a country physically you need to capture and hold ground. This is my point. Even when invading Iraq, the US, with all it's sophisticated assets, still need to fight Iraqi Army on the ground. The Pakistan Army is not the Iraqi Army.



Hi,

That is old news---. Those days of holding ground are long gone---now you go in and totally destroy the infrastructure of the country. Non nuclear weapons are a 100 times more lethal and accurate and with a lesser number of weapons---you can totally demolish the abilities and capabilities of a nation from far away---.


StructE said:


> Achieving limited objectives is something (with its own set of consequences) in war plans but taking over a country size of Pakistan is another. It is not possible for US with her might to go after Pakistan on ground.
> There is significant risk even with limited objective interference also. US don't know location of each and every warhead, what they will miss will be dropped on US bases and allies.
> Just one nuclear warhead dropped on a US base will ruin the majority party's prospects for a decade or more, it is just a non starter, only thing keeping Iran and North Korea safe is the possibility of actual operational WMD's.



Hi,

What is keeping north korea safe is that they are going to be a future christian / born again nation.

What is keeping Iran safe is that it keeps stabbing the other muslim world and does the job that the americans don't want to do.

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## omegalamba7XL9

The Future of Air Warfare: Evolutionary Symbiotic Enhancement with a Virtual Second-Seater


The recent DARPA AlphaDogfight Trials (ADT) were an impressive display of both technology and competition in support of advancing American airpower. As part of a broader DARPA technology and experimen




www.realcleardefense.com


----------



## Yasser76

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is old news---. Those days of holding ground are long gone---now you go in and totally destroy the infrastructure of the country. Non nuclear weapons are a 100 times more lethal and accurate and with a lesser number of weapons---you can totally demolish the abilities and capabilities of a nation from far away---.
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> What is keeping north korea safe is that they are going to be a future christian / born again nation.
> 
> What is keeping Iran safe is that it keeps stabbing the other muslim world and does the job that the americans don't want to do.



So why does even the US Army still have 17 Infantry Divisions? You will always need soldiers to occupy a country was my point.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Yasser76 said:


> So why does even the US Army still have 17 Infantry Divisions? You will always need soldiers to occupy a country was my point.


back to F16 topic please

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## Scorpiooo

Irfan Baloch said:


> back to F16 topic please


In past there rumors of Pakistan negotiations with Egyptian regarding there stock block 52 .. any update on it .. or was just dead rumor


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## Xone

Scorpiooo said:


> In past there rumors of Pakistan negotiations with Egyptian regarding there stock block 52 .. any update on it .. or was just dead rumor


Rumors are a mixture of truth and untruth
this one surely was an untruth.

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## Talon

Head on with Shahbaz

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## Raider 21

Scorpiooo said:


> In past there rumors of Pakistan negotiations with Egyptian regarding there stock block 52 .. any update on it .. or was just dead rumor


Not going to happen. The Egyptians love their Vipers.

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## Trailer23

Hodor said:


> Head on with Shahbaz
> 
> View attachment 683137


So glad you shared this image...  . I was looking for the exact thing.

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## MastanKhan

Yasser76 said:


> So why does even the US Army still have 17 Infantry Divisions? You will always need soldiers to occupy a country was my point.



Hi,

It takes time to train men for war---. You don't become an F16 fighter pilot jumping into the seat---.

The infantry divs are to fight two to three wars at the same time in different arenas---.

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## GriffinsRule

Anyone whats the story behind this photo?

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## truthfollower

GriffinsRule said:


> Anyone whats the story behind this photo?


sure


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## Shabi1

GriffinsRule said:


> Anyone whats the story behind this photo?
> 
> View attachment 683303


Saw it on Instagram couple of days ago and got curious so checked her insta page link which was in the picture. Forgot the name and no way of tracing it back.
From the pictures I don't think with PAF anymore. Aeronautical Engineer now a commercial pilot in US. She claims to be of NYC origin.

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## GriffinsRule

Shabi1 said:


> Saw it on Instagram couple of days ago and got curious so checked her insta page link which was in the picture. Forgot the name and no way of tracing it back.
> From the pictures I don't think with PAF anymore. Aeronautical Engineer now a commercial pilot in US. She claims to be of NYC origin.


Thanks


----------



## Stealth

Armchair said:


> 4. If PMIK riles up the Pakistanis for Trump,* Trump is the kind of guy that doesn't forget a favour.*



Are you sure? India has spent and still pouring billions of dollars in terms of investments in US, even though Trump making fun of them in his campaign. What are you talking about? lol


Shabi1 said:


> Saw it on Instagram couple of days ago and got curious so checked her insta page link which was in the picture. Forgot the name and no way of tracing it back.
> From the pictures I don't think with PAF anymore. Aeronautical Engineer now a commercial pilot in US. She claims to be of NYC origin.



Look @ her patch ... Griffin Sqd


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## Armchair

Stealth said:


> Are you sure? India has spent and still pouring billions of dollars in terms of investments in US, even though Trump making fun of them in his campaign. What are you talking about? lol
> 
> 
> Look @ her patch ... Griffin Sqd



If you couldn't understand what I am talking about, you won't understand my response either, so its a waste to discuss it with you.

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## Windjammer

GriffinsRule said:


> Anyone whats the story behind this photo?
> 
> View attachment 683303


She was an aircraft engineer in the PAF and has now moved on to Delta Airlines in US.









The Female Pilot Who Succeeded Against All Odds


From studying with a 95% male class, to building a life on her own terms.




www.harpersbazaar.com










__





Login • Instagram


Welcome back to Instagram. Sign in to check out what your friends, family & interests have been capturing & sharing around the world.




www.instagram.com

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## PDF

Shabi1 said:


> Saw it on Instagram couple of days ago and got curious so checked her insta page link which was in the picture. Forgot the name and no way of tracing it back.
> From the pictures I don't think with PAF anymore. Aeronautical Engineer now a commercial pilot in US. She claims to be of NYC origin.


Whew!
I thought it was a picture of an anchor or blogger or cancer patient. These days, from politicians to army generals get a chance to wear the suit am fly in the backseat for a joyride.

Wasting life of the machine for stunts... Sed Lyf.

They should rather fly them in the trainers like K8 or Mushak etc if it's soo necessary.

Also, We all agree that airshows don't need our good aricrafts and pilots wasting their time and life.

For a common man and his morale boosting, even the trainers or block 1s Jf 17s would suffice. They won't even be able to differentiate lol.

For us, seeing them in combat/operational excercises like DACT, or launching training sorties and targetting ground targets holds much more importance.


Anyways, we aren't getting any F-16s if U.S demands for full price.
We already have made arrangements with China to fulfill our needs which additional F-16s would have provided, for the near future i.e 10 to 15 years.

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## Falcon26

GriffinsRule said:


> Anyone whats the story behind this photo?
> 
> View attachment 683303



Thats Fatma Shafi, a popular Instagram user, who is an American commercial pilot. She was trained by the PAF as an engineer. She shares fondly, her experience with the PAF and how the service made her who she’s today.

Her experience shows that Pakistani women can make good pilots and PAF should invest resources to recruit more female pilots. It’s unfortunate that she had to move to the US to pursue her dream of being a pilot.

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## Reichmarshal

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is old news---. Those days of holding ground are long gone---now you go in and totally destroy the infrastructure of the country. Non nuclear weapons are a 100 times more lethal and accurate and with a lesser number of weapons---you can totally demolish the abilities and capabilities of a nation from far away---.
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> What is keeping north korea safe is that they are going to be a future christian / born again nation.
> 
> What is keeping Iran safe is that it keeps stabbing the other muslim world and does the job that the americans don't want to do.



Your post does not match the reality on the ground.
Wt happen to the u.s in Afg goes against wt uve stated in ur post. Ie
A bunch of rag tag Afghans in chappels beat the crap out of them in a war of attrition. The likes of which is even worse than wt the British or the Soviets experienced before them.
All of the above happened due to no boots on the ground as the u.s public did not have the stomach to see the constant flow of American body bags. So the u.s left 70 % of afg to the Taliban and only concentrated on the population centers. N the result is after waisting trillions and almost 2 decades n thousands of lifes.
The us has nothing to show for n is forced to sit n negotiate while bending over backwards with the same Taliban whom it called terrorists.

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## MastanKhan

Reichmarshal said:


> Your post does not match the reality on the ground.
> Wt happen to the u.s in Afg goes against wt uve stated in ur post. Ie
> A bunch of rag tag Afghans in chappels beat the crap out of them in a war of attrition. The likes of which is even worse than wt the British or the Soviets experienced before them.
> All of the above happened due to no boots on the ground as the u.s public did not have the stomach to see the constant flow of American body bags. So the u.s left 70 % of afg to the Taliban and only concentrated on the population centers. N the result is after waisting trillions and almost 2 decades n thousands of lifes.
> The us has nothing to show for n is forced to sit n negotiate while bending over backwards with the same Taliban whom it called terrorists.



There are over 2 million dead afghans in this " war on terror " and million homeless.


----------



## gangsta_rap

MastanKhan said:


> There are over 2 million dead afghans in this " war on terror " and million homeless.


i recall how you wanted the pakistani military to do exactly that in yemen years ago

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## MastanKhan

gangsta_rap said:


> i recall how you wanted the pakistani military to do exactly that in yemen years ago



Hi,

That is your shortsightedness and prejudice against me that makes you say that.

Pak military would not have done that but rather controlled the issue with a better understanding and handling of the problem---. 

Pak military had a unique experience intaking charge in the restless areas of pakistan and would have applied that same technique to calm the situation down---.

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## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is your shortsightedness and prejudice against me that makes you say that.
> 
> Pak military would not have done that but rather controlled the issue with a better understanding and handling of the problem---.
> 
> Pak military had a unique experience intaking charge in the restless areas of pakistan and would have applied that same technique to calm the situation down---.


That's wishful thinking at best and flat out falsehood at worst. 
How would have Pak army better controlled the situation exactly in a foreign land as occupiers/invaders? Also the objective would be set by the Saudis and not Pakistanis as you wanted our army as guns for hire. Add on that we don't speak the language or know the local culture or the terrain, AND we were also fighting a war inside our borders at the same time, this entire idea somehow calming the situation is entirely wrong. At best we would have killed thousands of Yemeni Muslims that posed no threat to us and lost thousands of soldiers in turn. At worst we would have also lost more people in Pakistan by prolonging the fight against terrorists.

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## The Raven

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is your shortsightedness and prejudice against me that makes you say that.
> 
> Pak military would not have done that but rather controlled the issue with a better understanding and handling of the problem---.
> 
> Pak military had a unique experience intaking charge in the restless areas of pakistan and would have applied that same technique to calm the situation down---.



You have your head in the sand like an ostrich. Tens of thousands of people have died in Pakistan and thousands more service personnel from combatting terrorist outfits over the past 20 years, but you seem to think the Pak army could do in Yemen what it has only barely done at home without paying a higher price. The US' misadventures in Iraq and Afghanistan should be examples enough, but clearly some people in their hubris and arrogance will never learn, no matter what. An you wonder why no one take you seriously?

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## Trailer23

PDF said:


> These days, from politicians to army generals get a chance to wear the suit am fly in the backseat for a joyride.


Wg Cdr. Yasir Shafiq* taking (former) PM Shahid Khaqan Abbasi for a spin in an F-16. These N-League swine's outta be billed for these joyrides. I'm certain they can afford it.

*Could be a Gp Capt by now.

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## Clairvoyant

Trailer23 said:


> Wg Cdr. Yasir Shafiq* taking (former) PM Shahid Khaqan Abbasi for a spin in an F-16. These N-League swine's outta be billed for these joyrides. I'm certain they can afford it.
> 
> *Could be a Gp Capt by now.




Should we bill the CJSC as well then!

PS,Yasir Shafiq is a group captain now and posted at PAF Shahbaz.


----------



## Trailer23

Clairvoyant said:


> Should we bill the CJSC as well then!


What the hell, why not?!!

He isn't Military. We have servicemen/women who have served their entire lives in the Air Force watching these jets fly day-in/day-out. They never get rides in anything other than a C-130 or a CASA.

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## Clairvoyant

Trailer23 said:


> What the hell, why not?!!
> 
> He isn't Military. We have servicemen/women who have served their entire lives in the Air Force watching these jets fly day-in/day-out. They never get rides in anything other than a C-130 or a CASA.



You might disagree with me but my view is that non-airforce personnel should not be allowed to fly front line fighters. This trend was started by Kiyani and now everyone wants a joyride in F.16's. 

If they're so interested in getting a taste of flying then they should be offered to fly in trainers.

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## Scorpiooo



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## MIRauf

"Shahid Khaqan Abbasi", wasn't he used to be in the PAF ? F-16 Pilot or something ?


----------



## baqai

MIRauf said:


> "Shahid Khaqan Abbasi", wasn't he used to be in the PAF ? F-16 Pilot or something ?



don't think so, he had an incentive ride in Viper when he was PM

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## PanzerKiel

MIRauf said:


> "Shahid Khaqan Abbasi", wasn't he used to be in the PAF ? F-16 Pilot or something ?


Nopes, his father was Air Commodore retired Khaqan Abbasi from PAF.

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## MIRauf

PanzerKiel said:


> Nopes, his father was Air Commodore retired Khaqan Abbasi from PAF.


Thank you, duly noted


----------



## Reichmarshal

Non the less he does have a cpl and has few hundred hrs on different platforms both props and jets/ single and multi engine.

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## Windjammer

PAF Vipers Making a Break.

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## GriffinsRule

Scorpiooo said:


> View attachment 684037


Not a real photograph.


----------



## Raider 21

PanzerKiel said:


> Nopes, his father was Air Commodore retired Khaqan Abbasi from PAF.


And I think his son or nephew is in PAF flying Mirages

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## mshan44



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## Reichmarshal

Raider 21 said:


> And I think his son or nephew is in PAF flying Mirages


no son of his is in the air force, don't know about any nephew


----------



## WiderMan

Windjammer said:


> PAF Vipers Making a Break.
> 
> View attachment 684148


 

Not PAF. DMA ripped it off a B-course vid.


----------



## Raider 21

WiderMan said:


> Not PAF. DMA ripped it off a B-course vid.


A USAF B-Course video? How original....


----------



## mshan44



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## Scorpiooo

Pakistani F16s Block 52 .....

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## WiderMan

Scorpiooo said:


> Pakistani F16s Block 52 .....
> View attachment 684686
> View attachment 684687
> View attachment 684688
> View attachment 684689
> View attachment 684690



Getting tired of these recycled images, like for real.


Raider 21 said:


> A USAF B-Course video? How original....



I expect nothing less from those sweet lazy slobs.


5 Sqn dude pulling CAP.

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## Windjammer

WiderMan said:


> Not PAF. DMA ripped it off a B-course vid.


Rather foolish of them if so since they had plenty of similar material on PAF.

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## Talon

Clairvoyant said:


> You might disagree with me but my view is that non-airforce personnel should not be allowed to fly front line fighters. This trend was started by Kiyani and now everyone wants a joyride in F.16's.
> 
> If they're so interested in getting a taste of flying then they should be offered to fly in trainers.


Talat Husaain (Journalist) flew in F16 much before Kayani,back in 2004



Raider 21 said:


> And I think his son or nephew is in PAF flying Mirages


Nephew, flying a different platform now

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## Clairvoyant

Hodor said:


> Talat Husaain (Journalist) flew in F16 much before Kayani,back in 2004
> 
> 
> Nephew, flying a different platform now




Yes I've watched the video of Talat Hussain's flight,along with Shahid Khaqan Abbasi he's probably the only other civilian who got an incentive ride in an F.16.

My point was regarding the army top brass opting for joyrides,if they're so keen on having a taste of flying then they should be offered a flight in a trainer not in Block 52's.


----------



## Talon

Clairvoyant said:


> Yes I've watched the video of Talat Hussain's flight,along with Shahid Khaqan Abbasi he's probably the only other civilian who got an incentive ride in an F.16.
> 
> My point was regarding the army top brass opting for joyrides,if they're so keen on having a taste of flying then they should be offered a flight in a trainer not in Block 52's.


AFAIK such invites are sent by the AF itself and not requested by the Generals,you think every Joint Chief requests an incentive ride right before he retires from his office?

Abbasi was invited because of his passion for aviation and his family members serving in the Air Force and ofcourse he was PM back then..

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## mshan44



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## Cuirassier

in an ideal world a squadron worth of Block 70/72s, an AIM120D package, and upgradation of the rest of the fleet to Viper standard (if possible) could've solved the Rafale question. dunno what's the update. will Biden's entry change stuff. no idea.


----------



## mingle

Cuirassier said:


> in an ideal world a squadron worth of Block 70/72s, an AIM120D package, and upgradation of the rest of the fleet to Viper standard (if possible) could've solved the Rafale question. dunno what's the update. will Biden's entry change stuff. no idea.


Last 8 blk52 were passed by Obama administration got hold by Trump very possible read on this forum I believe Biden secretary of defence worked on PAF F16s program she know bit much and understand let's see? @Yasser76


----------



## Akh1112

mingle said:


> Last 8 blk52 were passed by Obama administration got hold by Trump very possible read on this forum I believe Biden secretary of defence worked on PAF F16s program she know bit much and understand let's see? @Yasser76


no, what happened was CSF was not able to be used, so the PAF had to pay full price as opposed to the subsidized price, at which point they turned them down as it was far too expensive.

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## FuturePAF

Akh1112 said:


> no, what happened was CSF was not able to be used, so the PAF had to pay full price as opposed to the subsidized price, at which point they turned them down as it was far too expensive.



With a possible new Biden administration, what are the chances Pakistan can acquire at least 18-24 Block 72 F-16s, upgrade the existing fleet, and acquire weapons and spares through CSF, in order to “maintain the balance in the region”.

Feb ‘19 showed Pakistan used the F-16s in a careful manner as not to escalate the situation. PAF f-16s helped to keep the peace, and helping Pakistan maintain technological parity vis a vi India prevents dramatic sudden escalations spiraling out of control.

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## Akh1112

FuturePAF said:


> With a possible new Biden administration, what are the chances Pakistan can acquire at least 18-24 Block 72 F-16s, upgrade the existing fleet, and acquire weapons and spares through CSF, in order to “maintain the balance in the region”.
> 
> Feb ‘19 showed Pakistan used the F-16s in a careful manner as not to escalate the situation. PAF f-16s helped to keep the peace, and helping Pakistan maintain technological parity vis a vi India prevents dramatic sudden escalations spiraling out of control.



im pretty hopeful tbh. Biden's Afghanistan plan includes asking the Pak Govt for some permanent bases to monitor Afghanistan, this obviously gives us MASSIVE leverage on the US once again, grabbing them by the balls to get as much as we can out of them.

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## GriffinsRule

Biden will be a lot more pro India then Trump ever was.

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## mingle

Akh1112 said:


> no, what happened was CSF was not able to be used, so the PAF had to pay full price as opposed to the subsidized price, at which point they turned them down as it was far too expensive.


Obama administration was ok with CSF not Trump later


Akh1112 said:


> im pretty hopeful tbh. Biden's Afghanistan plan includes asking the Pak Govt for some permanent bases to monitor Afghanistan, this obviously gives us MASSIVE leverage on the US once again, grabbing them by the balls to get as much as we can out of them.


True but we have to play careful especially public sentiment if it linked with same BECA deal which khan asked in recent interview with German paper along FTA we can get anything from US topnotch weapons along keeping good relationship with China


GriffinsRule said:


> Biden will be a lot more pro India then Trump ever was.


They all pro Indian BECA deal happened two weeks ago


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## mshan44



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## Akh1112

mingle said:


> Obama administration was ok with CSF not Trump later
> 
> True but we have to play careful especially public sentiment if it linked with same BECA deal which khan asked in recent interview with German paper along FTA we can get anything from US topnotch weapons along keeping good relationship with China
> 
> They all pro Indian BECA deal happened two weeks ago




sorry, not CSF, but it was another program which subsidized the cost of the aircraft. This is why they were not bought as they were full price


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## Akh1112

GriffinsRule said:


> Biden will be a lot more pro India then Trump ever was.




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1324748873546362881


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## PakFactor

Akh1112 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1324748873546362881



She just saying all that because they know Pakistani-American's are gullible, they'll buy into anything.

Those expecting F-16s Block 70+ and upgrades, are living in a fools paradise, the new man is India and they'll prop them up to counter China -- Pakistan hasn't been able to assert itself and acted like a cuck throughout its history so it'll be tossed aside.

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## Akh1112

PakFactor said:


> She just saying all that because they know Pakistani-American's are gullible, they'll buy into anything.
> 
> Those expecting F-16s Block 70+ and upgrades, are living in a fools paradise, the new man is India and they'll prop them up to counter China -- Pakistan hasn't been able to assert itself and acted like a cuck throughout its history so it'll be tossed aside.




Its irrelevant who is gullible and who isnt. She has made a claim, she has pissed off India, The biden administration has done this numerous times. The biden admin has also placed an increased importance on Pakistan for Afghanistan withdrawl. You can say they are living in a fools paradise but it is inevitable for the PAF to approach the US for the upgrades, they make a huge part of the fleet and they are too expensive to let us let them become obselete.

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## GriffinsRule

" There is a need to intervene if the situation demands."

If the situation hasn't demanded it yet, it is not going to demand in the future either. The old adage of actions speak louder than words applies here. No Pakistani should be under the false hope of the US coming to Pakistani/Kashmiri corner when it comes to geopolitics.

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## ziaulislam

PakFactor said:


> She just saying all that because they know Pakistani-American's are gullible, they'll buy into anything.
> 
> Those expecting F-16s Block 70+ and upgrades, are living in a fools paradise, the new man is India and they'll prop them up to counter China -- Pakistan hasn't been able to assert itself and acted like a cuck throughout its history so it'll be tossed aside.


i doubt anyone including PAF thinks they will get the f16s..if the the Pakistani govt is trying to get those or hoping to then its pretty stupid honestly..

F16s have played their role and will remain important asset for next 10 years but post 2030 they will start becoming meaning less..PAF needs to move on..PAF can collobrate with some European countries(particularly italy and UK), turkey and china to get its sub system for its AZM and JF-17 and that should be its focus


we only got f16s in cold war and then in 2005 when USA desperately needed us..

what pakistan should look in USA-pak relation ship is pakistan trying to leverage USA help in getting maximum funding from asian and world bank(cheap financing) for mega projects, their funding allows you to get funding from private investors/banks(it is kinda a seal of approval)

what more we can do is to try to get some loan written off, this doesnt need to go to congress and can be done via executive order, like it happend in mushi era when a large portion of loan was written off by USA

lastly, we may be able to get some anti terror equipment, like MRAPs etc/excess USA equipment..

india will lobby hard for any thing including ordianry funding as it willa rgue this frees up money for defense procurement from china

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> i doubt anyone including PAF thinks they will get the f16s..if the the Pakistani govt is trying to get those or hoping to then its pretty stupid honestly..
> 
> F16s have played their role and will remain important asset for next 10 years but post 2030 they will start becoming meaning less..PAF needs to move on..PAF can collobrate with some European countries(particularly italy and UK), turkey and china to get its sub system for its AZM and JF-17 and that should be its focus
> 
> 
> we only got f16s in cold war and then in 2005 when USA desperately needed us..
> 
> what pakistan should look in USA-pak relation ship is pakistan trying to leverage USA help in getting maximum funding from asian and world bank(cheap financing) for mega projects, their funding allows you to get funding from private investors/banks(it is kinda a seal of approval)
> 
> what more we can do is to try to get some loan written off, this doesnt need to go to congress and can be done via executive order, like it happend in mushi era when a large portion of loan was written off by USA
> 
> lastly, we may be able to get some anti terror equipment, like MRAPs etc/excess USA equipment..
> 
> india will lobby hard for any thing including ordianry funding as it willa rgue this frees up money for defense procurement from china


Let's see how it pans out but PAF should look EU options as well like EF used and new in small badge 24 - 30 two Sqd will be great


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## Ali_Baba

Akh1112 said:


> no, what happened was CSF was not able to be used, so the PAF had to pay full price as opposed to the subsidized price, at which point they turned them down as it was far too expensive.



No, No, No. The CSF does not subsidize the price of F16s, the FMS programme does. Pakistan was not getting FMS subsidies, it was pay full price for those F16s. What the CSF funds allowed Pakistan to do, was pay for F16s without "eating" into Pakistan's USD dollar reserves. That is all. That is why Pakistan will not buy F16s now. It does not have the FX reserves to sustain a 5-7billion dollar programme as that will eat into the reserves to much ...

That is why the LRMP programme is being done piecemeal, etc.. dollar reserves cannot sustain a bulk order of several billion dollars. Being inside the FATF sanctions means, Pakistan's ability to raise foreign debt in USD is also limited, so it is finding it difficult to fund multiple defence programmes in one go. They are all now, smaller and paced out over time to manage Foreign Exchange reserves.

That is why India want Pakistan to have the FATF sanctions, as it limits Pakistan ability to purchase western weapon systems.

It is called " Fifth generation warfare, by war by every other means possible." ie non kinetic war ...

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## Akh1112

Ali_Baba said:


> No, No, No. The CSF does not subsidize the price of F16s, the FMS programme does. Pakistan was not getting FMS subsidies, it was pay full price for those F16s. What the CSF funds allowed Pakistan to do, was pay for F16s without "eating" into Pakistan's USD dollar reserves. That is all. That is why Pakistan will not buy F16s now. It does not have the FX reserves to sustain a 5-7billion dollar programme as that will eat into the reserves to much ...
> 
> That is why the LRMP programme is being done piecemeal, etc.. dollar reserves cannot sustain a bulk order of several billion dollars. Being inside the FATF sanctions means, Pakistan's ability to raise foreign debt in USD is also limited, so it is finding it difficult to fund multiple defence programmes in one go. They are all now, smaller and paced out over time to manage Foreign Exchange reserves.
> 
> That is why India want Pakistan to have the FATF sanctions, as it limits Pakistan ability to purchase western weapon systems.
> 
> It is called " Fifth generation warfare, by war by every other means possible." ie non kinetic war ...



yes, i had corrected this in a later post.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

I don't know about F-16s, but I think our armed forces will push for ITAR equipment via 3rd parties, especially engines for helicopters and transport aircraft.

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## PakFactor

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I don't know about F-16s, but I think our armed forces will push for ITAR equipment via 3rd parties, especially engines for helicopters and transport aircraft.



This obsession of F-16 is to the point of disgusting right now, and people need to move on. US interests have changes to containing China, why would they arm Pakistan now.

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## ziaulislam

exactly the future is to invest in R&D and procure subsystems from europe and china..the same way navy is doing



PakFactor said:


> This obsession of F-16 is to the point of disgusting right now, and people need to move on. US interests have changes to containing China, why would they arm Pakistan now.

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## Incog_nito

I think with the recent success and operational history of F-16s in PAF, PAF might be interested in acquiring more used F-16 A/B along with the newer F-16C/Ds.


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## Raider 21

Incog_nito said:


> I think with the recent success and operational history of F-16s in PAF, PAF might be interested in acquiring more used F-16 A/B along with the newer F-16C/Ds.


Long term success since 1983

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## Incog_nito

Raider 21 said:


> Long term success since 1983



The US now needs money and can easily allow PAF to buy a good amount of used F-16 A/Bs with the upgrade package similar to MLU-4s.

Moreover, might also allow PAF to buy new F-16 C/Ds.


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## GriffinsRule

Incog_nito said:


> The US now needs money and can easily allow PAF to buy a good amount of used F-16 A/Bs with the upgrade package similar to MLU-4s.
> 
> Moreover, might also allow PAF to buy new F-16 C/Ds.


Pakistan needs money more desperately then the US. They can just print the dollars

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## Eagle_Nest

For F-16 Piolet inside is the limit!

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## Akh1112

Incog_nito said:


> The US now needs money and can easily allow PAF to buy a good amount of used F-16 A/Bs with the upgrade package similar to MLU-4s.
> 
> Moreover, might also allow PAF to buy new F-16 C/Ds.


would need to be block 72s as the block 50/52 line has been closed for a few years now. they are no longer for sale new.

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## mshan44



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## ziaulislam

Akh1112 said:


> would need to be block 72s as the block 50/52 line has been closed for a few years now. they are no longer for sale new.


infact there is just block 70 available with GE engine if i am not wrong and its price has substantially dropped due to standardization and streamlining by LM. as it was losing market to gripen and other russians options


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## Clairvoyant

ziaulislam said:


> infact there is just block 70 available with GE engine if i am not wrong and its price has substantially dropped due to standardization and streamlining by LM. as it was losing market to gripen and other russians options




Gripen E only has a single customer while the Su.35 has two and F.16V has done much better in the international market than the other two aircraft.


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## Kabotar

It is losing market to F35. I think Morocco bought with PW engines.


ziaulislam said:


> infact there is just block 70 available with GE engine if i am not wrong and its price has substantially dropped due to standardization and streamlining by LM. as it was losing market to gripen and other russians options


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## Yasser76

Kabotar said:


> It is losing market to F35. I think Morocco bought with PW engines.



It;s not really competing against the F-35.

Current F-16 users are divided between 

F-35 = Have cash and are cleared 
F-16V = Less money and not cleared 

Many NATO countries, Japan, Singapore, Israel and S Korea fall into first catagory 

Pak, Morocco, Jordan, Egypt, Thailand fall into second

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## Akh1112

ziaulislam said:


> infact there is just block 70 available with GE engine if i am not wrong and its price has substantially dropped due to standardization and streamlining by LM. as it was losing market to gripen and other russians options


there are/have always been multiple engine options for the F-16's:

Any F-16 Block ending in 0 means it carries a GE engine
Any F-16 Block ending in 2 means it carries a PW engine.

Paf operates the Block 52, this means it carries a PW engine.
Lets say Turkey operates the block 50, this means they use the GE engine.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Why aren't we doing anything to disrupt the market with our jet?


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## Readerdefence

Hi 
Anybody have a slightest idea about the parts been manufactured by different countries for EF typhoon recently German has agreed to release parts for EF for Saudi Arabia so one can think of how and from where PAF will overcome this kind of scenario if the need arises after buying eurofighter 
somy understanding is forget about EF 
any member with more info can put up some words against my post 
thank you


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## Trailer23

Yasser76 said:


> It;s not really competing against the F-35.
> 
> Current F-16 users are divided between
> 
> F-35 = Have cash and are cleared
> F-16V = Less money and not cleared
> 
> Many NATO countries, Japan, Singapore, Israel and S Korea fall into first catagory
> 
> Pak, Morocco, Jordan, Egypt, Thailand fall into second


Yes, you're right, but you forgot someone who wanted to be the first category, but is/will be religated to staying in the second category. 

Indonesia. 

Recently, about a week back Indonesia was turned down the F-35 and is once again being offered the F-16 and/or the F/A-18.

Indonesia Wants F-35 Jets, But US Pushing F-16s or F/A-18s Instead

The 'reason' given is the most absurd one - of having to wait for 09 Years on the Waiting List. 

We all know, that if a certain Nation orders the F-35 (today), they'll bypass any 'Waiting List'. 

Indonesia shouldn't give in to this kind of pressure & as a lesson outta opt for something European or Russian as they've shown interest in the Su-35.

@Indos


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## Indos

Trailer23 said:


> Yes, you're right, but you forgot someone who wanted to be the first category, but is/will be religated to staying in the second category.
> 
> Indonesia.
> 
> Recently, about a week back Indonesia was turned down the F-35 and is once again being offered the F-16 and/or the F/A-18.
> 
> Indonesia Wants F-35 Jets, But US Pushing F-16s or F/A-18s Instead
> 
> The 'reason' given is the most absurd one - of having to wait for 09 Years on the Waiting List.
> 
> We all know, that if a certain Nation orders the F-35 (today), they'll bypass any 'Waiting List'.
> 
> Indonesia shouldn't give in to this kind of pressure & as a lesson outta opt for something European or Russian as they've shown interest in the Su-35.
> 
> @Indos



Indeed, SU 35 option is going to come up again to replace old F5 squadron. Any way, it is part of diversification strategy since we still remember the embargo period. If Biden relax CATSAA there is possibility to go that route, any way we have already been too close with ordering SU 35. 

Indonesia Mindef wants to retrofit our Hawk 100/200 instead of replace them with F 16 V as suggested by previous Air Force commander. 

I predict new fighters are only for 1 squadron and there is still chance there is no new order until 2024 and our Mindef will focus on Navy acquisition (as what I always suggested here), and starting in 2026 just order KFX/IFX (if the program is on schedule and successful and Indonesia is still in the program)


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## Yasser76

Indos said:


> Indeed, SU 35 option is going to come up again to replace old F5 squadron. Any way, it is part of diversification strategy since we still remember the embargo period. If Biden relax CATSAA there is possibility to go that route, any way we have already been too close with ordering SU 35.
> 
> Indonesia Mindef wants to retrofit our Hawk 100/200 instead of replace them with F 16 V as suggested by previous Air Force commander.
> 
> I predict new fighters are only for 1 squadron and there is still chance there is no new order until 2024 and our Mindef will focus on Navy acquisition (as what I always suggested here), and starting in 2026 just order KFX/IFX (if the program is on schedule and successful and Indonesia is still in the program)



Indonesia is a prime example of a very good air force hampered by small numbers of many different types.

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## mshan44



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## mshan44



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## mshan44



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## Incog_nito

Akh1112 said:


> would need to be block 72s as the block 50/52 line has been closed for a few years now. they are no longer for sale new.


May be 2nd hand Block-50s/52s can easily be bought from other countries along with Block-15s/20s/25s from its operators.


GriffinsRule said:


> Pakistan needs money more desperately then the US. They can just print the dollars


How many F-16A/Bs (15/20/25) are available in US Aircraft boneyards?
Block-50/52: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article9.html
F-16 A/B: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article3.html


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## Trailer23

*Lockheed Unveils Miniaturized IRST For F-16 Block 70/72s*

November 17, 2020


Lockheed Martin on Nov. 17 unveiled a miniaturized infrared search and track (IRST) sensor with an embedded processor for the F-16 Block 70/72 series. 







The Legion-Embedded System (ES) pod has been ordered by an undisclosed F-16 Block 70/72 customer and is available for delivery to new operators starting in 2023, said Jim Ni, Lockheed’s IRST21 program manager. 

The first deliveries of a newly built F-16 Block 70 are scheduled in 2021 to the Royal Bahraini Air Force. Taiwan, Slovakia, and Bulgaria also have scheduled F-16 Block 70 deliveries, while Morocco has ordered F-16 Block 72s.

The Legion-ES repackages the long-wave sensor developed for the Legion pod and IRST21. The computer processor is integrated into the F-16’s forward equipment bay. 

As a result, the 300-lb., 77-in.-long Legion-ES pod on the left-underside of the forward fuselage is significantly lighter and smaller than Lockheed’s other, fully podded IRST systems, Ni said.

Although the pod is tucked beneath the fuselage, the field of view of the sensor is not obstructed at the ranges anticipated for IRST detection of hostile aircraft, Ni said. 

Lockheed developed the full-size Legion pod to integrate on the U.S. Air Force’s fleet of F-16 Block 40/42/50/52 jets. 

The Legion pod is significantly larger than the Legion-ES because it is designed with growth to carry other systems, such as a communications relay or other sensors. The processor for the full-size Legion pod also is integrated on the pod itself, rather than inside the forward equipment bay. 

Lockheed miniaturized and consolidated electronics in the forward equipment bay of the F-16 Block 70/72 series. The extra room created space to house the processor for the Legion-ES, Ni said.

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## Incog_nito

*Sources:*









It's Official: Greece Requests To Buy F-35 Fighter Jets From The US Amid Tensions With Turkey


In a bid to outdo the Turkish threat faced by Greece in the Aegean sea, Athens has formally sent a request to acquire the Lockheed Martin F-35 stealth fighters from the Unites States. Chinese Pilots To Train On New AI-Enabled Fighter Trainers Before Flying The ‘Highly Prized’ J-16s, J-20s...




eurasiantimes.com













Greece sent letter of request to Pentagon for buying 18 to 24 new or used F-35 stealth fighters - The Aviation Geek Club


Greece sent letter of request to Pentagon for buying 18 to 24 new or used F-35 stealth fighters




theaviationgeekclub.com













List of aircraft of the Hellenic Air Force - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





PAF can negotiate for the F-16s Block-52s to add into their fleet.

Although, I think the F-35s will replace F-4s.


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## araz

Incog_nito said:


> *Sources:*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's Official: Greece Requests To Buy F-35 Fighter Jets From The US Amid Tensions With Turkey
> 
> 
> In a bid to outdo the Turkish threat faced by Greece in the Aegean sea, Athens has formally sent a request to acquire the Lockheed Martin F-35 stealth fighters from the Unites States. Chinese Pilots To Train On New AI-Enabled Fighter Trainers Before Flying The ‘Highly Prized’ J-16s, J-20s...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eurasiantimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greece sent letter of request to Pentagon for buying 18 to 24 new or used F-35 stealth fighters - The Aviation Geek Club
> 
> 
> Greece sent letter of request to Pentagon for buying 18 to 24 new or used F-35 stealth fighters
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theaviationgeekclub.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> List of aircraft of the Hellenic Air Force - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAF can negotiate for the F-16s Block-52s to add into their fleet.
> 
> Although, I think the F-35s will replace F-4s.


I don't see anyone scrapping 16/52s just yet. don't know where Greece will get the money from since they were on the verge of/had declared bankruptcy a couple of years ago. With tourism down the drain they don't have much else to earn money with. so will the US irk the Turks who are part of NATO to appease the Greeks? Now that is the question. If I were a betting man I would sell to both and see how they fights each other increasing their demand for more arms. 5 more years and Turkey will be invincible with local 5th generation fighters coming on board, so will the US risk alienating a NATO ally???
A

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## mshan44



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## SQ8

araz said:


> I don't see anyone scrapping 16/52s just yet. don't know where Greece will get the money from since they were on the verge of/had declared bankruptcy a couple of years ago. With tourism down the drain they don't have much else to earn money with. so will the US irk the Turks who are part of NATO to appease the Greeks? Now that is the question. If I were a betting man I would sell to both and see how they fights each other increasing their demand for more arms. 5 more years and Turkey will be invincible with local 5th generation fighters coming on board, so will the US risk alienating a NATO ally???
> A


I believe we are done with new F-16s and have slim chances on used ones for the foreseeable future.
It’s a medium Chinese platform as a stop gap strike fighter and then all focus on further JF blocks and AZM.

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## PDF

SQ8 said:


> I believe we are done with new F-16s and have slim chances on used ones for the foreseeable future.
> It’s a medium Chinese platform as a stop gap strike fighter and then all focus on further JF blocks and AZM.


The information is soo bi-polar. Some are very optimistic of new and updated F-16s coming to Pakistan while some are soo sure that we got hold of J-10C. 
Although talks take place all the time, but this polar opposite narrative is getting crazy.

It's either PAF wants the ambiguity about all this or even PAF does not know what holds for its future.

On AZM, well we succeeded in our nuclear program because we had determined and very dedicated people on it. And for us, it was our survival. Everyone including a common man was supporting. On AZM, most don't even know much about it. And I don't see the pace, commitment needed to put into it. Things are too bleaky to not be skeptical about the program. 

A safe bet would be AZM heavily influenced by China but the downside would be a bit of compromise on quality relatively to Western products.

Right now, with the issues sorted on Block 3, I think we will try to produce a larger quantity to develop the force needed counter the threat from India.

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## Scorpiooo

For PAF best is to get out this F16 phobia once for all, yes we agree its very good jet and PAF pilots developed have alot expertise on them ..
but alot of strings of conditions and blackmailing remain part of package in past will remain in future aswell untill we dont have alternative option practically adopted

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## Rafale+Meteor+Spectra

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1321010558573924353


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## Incog_nito

Can F-16s become the next Mirage for PAF or will JF-17 will be like that?


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## Windjammer

Interesting piece of trophy in the background.

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## Readerdefence

Hi at the moment I’m sure no more F16 specific to the latest as USA is comfortable in selling these new machines to Arabs countries from where they will get hard cash / obviously not from Pakistan even getting blk52 is not a easy option until unless Indians buy some really big and more expensive stuff then might be a chance for PAF as USA is not ready to let go Indians from their circle of buying expensive stuff so won’t annoy them selling these to Pakistan 
in the end better luck for Pakistan is to get Chinese or if possible Russian stuff ( coz even European is too expensive & no credit) and with the best training they can always come over to their adversaries even if they are using USA or other European stuff 
let’s see what will come out the hat incoming years F16 chances are ver bleak 
thank you


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## Deltadart

Incog_nito said:


> Can F-16s become the next Mirage for PAF or will JF-17 will be like that?


Not wit


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## SQ8

PDF said:


> The information is soo bi-polar. Some are very optimistic of new and updated F-16s coming to Pakistan while some are soo sure that we got hold of J-10C.
> Although talks take place all the time, but this polar opposite narrative is getting crazy.
> 
> It's either PAF wants the ambiguity about all this or even PAF does not know what holds for its future.
> 
> On AZM, well we succeeded in our nuclear program because we had determined and very dedicated people on it. And for us, it was our survival. Everyone including a common man was supporting. On AZM, most don't even know much about it. And I don't see the pace, commitment needed to put into it. Things are too bleaky to not be skeptical about the program.
> 
> A safe bet would be AZM heavily influenced by China but the downside would be a bit of compromise on quality relatively to Western products.
> 
> Right now, with the issues sorted on Block 3, I think we will try to produce a larger quantity to develop the force needed counter the threat from India.


I would for a bit go away from insider info and focus on general metrics such as the country’s economic,diplomatic and political condition to determine possible outcomes.

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## MastanKhan

araz said:


> I don't see anyone scrapping 16/52s just yet. don't know where Greece will get the money from since they were on the verge of/had declared bankruptcy a couple of years ago. With tourism down the drain they don't have much else to earn money with. so will the US irk the Turks who are part of NATO to appease the Greeks? Now that is the question. If I were a betting man I would sell to both and see how they fights each other increasing their demand for more arms. 5 more years and Turkey will be invincible with local 5th generation fighters coming on board, so will the US risk alienating a NATO ally???
> A



Araz,

You are a terrible analyst.

Greece is a christian nation. Turkey is an angry at the US muslim nation. There has been a lots of love lost for Turkey in the west.

The turkish 5th gen is 10 plus years away---. F35 is already inducted and deployed. The turkish 5th gen will have to go integration and that will be a few more years---.

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## Thorough Pro

Not sure why most Pakistani's fail to read the writing on the wall. This is where I agree with @MastanKhan when he talks about the deplorable stupidity and lack of knowledge and perspective of young Pakistanis despite having free access to the internet. People still believe the KSA would finance US military hardware for Pakistan. 





SQ8 said:


> I believe we are done with new F-16s and have slim chances on used ones for the foreseeable future.
> It’s a medium Chinese platform as a stop gap strike fighter and then all focus on further JF blocks and AZM.

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## Raider 21

Thorough Pro said:


> Not sure why most Pakistani's fail to read the writing on the wall. This is where I agree with @MastanKhan when he talks about the deplorable stupidity and lack of knowledge and perspective of young Pakistanis despite having free access to the internet. * People still believe the KSA would finance US military hardware for Pakistan.*


PEACE GATE I & II, according to one of the first pilots to fly Vipers mentioned that it was partly Saudi financed. Not sure how accurate that is....


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## ziaulislam

Raider 21 said:


> PEACE GATE I & II, according to one of the first pilots to fly Vipers mentioned that it was partly Saudi financed. Not sure how accurate that is....


Last i remember we paid directly so i doubt this is true

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## Raider 21

ziaulislam said:


> Last i remember we paid directly so i doubt this is true


Don't know who *we *are.

And it was via FMS. Like I mentioned previously, not sure how accurate that was....


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## Aamir Hussain

this love for anything Arab needs to stop now!! They have clearly shown what we or Muslim Ummah means to them. What is going to happen to them or not, should not be our concern. 

We need to forge our own alliances which dove tail with our priorities and vision. And mend fences where we need to, to suit our needs. No obsession with Brotherly nor equal relationships. Can you believe it when we want equal relationship with US or for that matter China!!

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## The Raven

Aamir Hussain said:


> this love for anything Arab needs to stop now!! They have clearly shown what we or Muslim Ummah means to them. What is going to happen to them or not, should not be our concern.
> 
> We need to forge our own alliances which dove tail with our priorities and vision. And mend fences where we need to, to suit our needs. No obsession with Brotherly nor equal relationships. Can you believe it when we want equal relationship with US or for that matter China!!




There's no such thing as the "ummah". Pakistan and other muslim countries have been criticising the gulf states for normalising relations with Israel and "selling out" the Palestinians, but are more than happy to continue the "deeper than seas, higher than mountains" relationship with China despite the Uighur issue and selling JF-17 to Myanmar. The "nuclear factor" is the primary interest of the gulf states in Pakistan. 

On the Viper front, I doubt we'll see any new airframes. Used examples are a possibility, as well as upgrades, but other than that, US/Pakistan military ties will gradually fade.

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## capricorn5192

Windjammer said:


> Interesting piece of trophy in the background.
> 
> View attachment 690119


Looks like an engine

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## Yasser76

Anyone else remember when this was an PAF F-16 discussion thread?

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## ziaulislam

Raider 21 said:


> Don't know who *we *are.
> 
> And it was via FMS. Like I mentioned previously, not sure how accurate that was....


ok so why the 10 years drama about 3.4b dollars that we sued USA then ultimately got paid in soya bean..come on!!!


_This brings us back to the F-16s debacle. When the Pressler sanctions came into force, Pakistan was precluded from taking possession of 28 F-16s for which it had made payments until 1993, some three years after the sanctions commenced. *Pakistan paid the Lockheed Corp. $658 million** for the planes, and some reports suggest that Pakistan continued making payments based on Pentagon assurances that continued payments would ensure eventual delivery.*


Pakistan did not get the planes and was assessed storage and maintenance costs of $50,000 per month for the planes that sat, becoming ever more obsolete, in the Arizona desert. This account is telling: Pakistan preferred to heed the roseate advice of the Pentagon over the clear lines of U.S. law.

*Under threat of a Pakistani lawsuit*, U.S. president Bill Clinton resolved the issue in late 1998. *Pakistan received $464 million, mostly in cash, which was the remaining amount of the claim. Clinton also agreed to send Pakistan an additional $60 million worth of wheat.* (New Zealand ultimately purchased the F-16s on a 10-year lease-purchase deal that totaled $105 million.)_











U.S. to Pay Pakistan Back for Undelivered Jets (Published 1998)


US agrees to pay Pakistan $324.6 million in cash and additional $142.6 million through other means as reimbursement for 28 F-16 fighter jets that Pakistan paid for in 1989 but never received; in return, Pakistan will withdraw its claim to planes; New Zealand will lease them, and all proceeds...




www.nytimes.com






Raider 21 said:


> Don't know who *we *are.
> 
> And it was via FMS. Like I mentioned previously, not sure how accurate that was....


*we *means the poor people of Pakistan dying of hunger in 1990s..

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## MastanKhan

Aamir Hussain said:


> this love for anything Arab needs to stop now!! They have clearly shown what we or Muslim Ummah means to them. What is going to happen to them or not, should not be our concern.
> 
> We need to forge our own alliances which dove tail with our priorities and vision. And mend fences where we need to, to suit our needs. No obsession with Brotherly nor equal relationships. Can you believe it when we want equal relationship with US or for that matter China!!




Sir,

What Love of Ummah needs to stop---?

We refused them when they came begging for help---we insulted humiliated and degraded them in their hour of need---.

When we go out and beg for help---we need to expect that they will come to us in their hour of need----.

And we may not agree that their hour of need meets our morality---but still it is our obligation of a nation with character to help---.

You cannot pick and chose your hour of help---.

When you have asked for help for your survival---payback is a bi-tch Mr Aamir Hussein.

Remember the GODFATHER movie---when that restaurant owner comes to help avenge his daughters molester. @ 2:45






@ 2:45---when they came asking for help---we slapped them on their faces.

We received help from the GCC at every crisis that we had and when the GCC needed our help---came begging to our house---you rejected and humiliated and degraded them sir---.

That is unforgivable.


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## Irfan Baloch

MIRauf said:


> "Shahid Khaqan Abbasi", wasn't he used to be in the PAF ? F-16 Pilot or something ?


no he wasnt I am sure. but his father was in PAF and a commodore
I think he got pilot licence abroad but there is no info of him flying commercial airlines he has been a pilot a civilian pilot of small planes maybe.

as PM he got the chance to sit in an F-16 just like ride the submarine and the T-129 helicopter too


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## undercover JIX

@MIRauf 

He is a Pilot and Jahaz same time, aik soota landa se ti jaaz ban janda se....

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## Irfan Baloch

MastanKhan said:


> Sir,
> 
> What Love of Ummah needs to stop---?
> 
> We refused them when they came begging for help---we insulted humiliated and degraded them in their hour of need---.
> 
> When we go out and beg for help---we need to expect that they will come to us in their hour of need----.
> 
> And we may not agree that their hour of need meets our morality---but still it is our obligation of a nation with character to help---.
> 
> You cannot pick and chose your hour of help---.
> 
> When you have asked for help for your survival---payback is a bi-tch Mr Aamir Hussein.
> 
> Remember the GODFATHER movie---when that restaurant owner comes to help avenge his daughters molester. @ 2:45
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @ 2:45---when they came asking for help---we slapped them on their faces.
> 
> We received help from the GCC at every crisis that we had and when the GCC needed our help---came begging to our house---you rejected and humiliated and degraded them sir---.
> 
> That is unforgivable.



future F-16 procurement will need to be without bothering our Arab associates. lets just keep exercising with them on Falcon meet and if they agree to sell something after discussing with Americans then take it with thanks otherwise look elsewhere.


Lala I am told by former colleagues and some associates that we did send retired mercenaries aka consultants and some serving personnel for the Saudi campaign in Yemen,. of course it is not the level and satisfaction of our Saudi brothers but still it was done. 

I have no way of confirming or finding more details but over the years from Baluchistan to KPK and Azad Kashmir I have met serving and retired people who mentioned their friends and associates who went away specifically to take part in the war.
it shouldve been all or nothing in my opinion with national interest as a primary concern. I find it hard to accept as fear/ love of Iran or care for Yemani people prevented our Military civil janta from sending our guys all out. I blame it on indecision.

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## Trailer23

@araz - You're a brilliant analyst. One of brightest ones here to say the least.

--------------​
This issue has been raised on a number of occasions and we're been bombarded with countless b.s statements by Posters.

*Q.* Why should we sacrifice our boys as like pawns on a Chess Board for someone else?

*Q.* Why don't posters send their f#*kin' kids & grandkids to fight against Yemen? What, are they too much of pussies to pick up a gun?!!

Not sure why people confuse kindness for weakness.

Just because I go to a friends door and ask him for money every now and again, doesn't mean i'm gonna take a bullet for the cunt.

But when certain individuals live on the other end of the rainbow - its easier to have someone else's child killed in a foreign country just so that they can log-on to PDF & brag that they are quite possibly/most certainly the smartest one on the forum. F-OFF!!!

*oops* I hope people didn't take my Post as a direct Threat & start a Topic 'bout it without tagging me (again).

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## Nomad40

Trailer23 said:


> @araz - You're a brilliant analyst. One of brightest ones here to say the least.
> 
> --------------​
> This issue has been raised on a number of occasions and we're been bombarded with countless b.s statements by Posters.
> 
> *Q.* Why should we sacrifice our boys as like pawns on a Chess Board for someone else?
> 
> *Q.* Why don't posters send their f#*kin' kids & grandkids to fight against Yemen? What, are they too much of pussies to pick up a gun?!!
> 
> Not sure why people confuse kindness for weakness.
> 
> Just because I go to a friends door and ask him for money every now and again, doesn't mean i'm gonna take a bullet for the cunt.
> 
> But when certain individuals live on the other end of the rainbow - its easier to have someone else's child killed in a foreign country just so that they can log-on to PDF & brag that they are quite possibly/most certainly the smartest one on the forum. F-OFF!!!
> 
> *oops* I hope people didn't take my Post as a direct Threat & start a Topic 'bout it without tagging me (again).


😂 why doe


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## Thorough Pro

Peace Gate I happened 40 years ago in 1980 when the Soviet Union was sitting in Afghanistan with Pakistan being the only barrier between the USSR and the warm water of the GULF that was the key passage of 80% of world oil trade. Even if Peace Gate I was financed 100% by KSA or the US gave them 100 free, and as a matter of fact, none of the two happened, what does it matter now? This is 2020. This is a new world.





Raider 21 said:


> PEACE GATE I & II, according to one of the first pilots to fly Vipers mentioned that it was partly Saudi financed. Not sure how accurate that is....


"We" means Pakistan, what else do you think?
We paid 40mil a pop for 40 planes and we paid everything from our own pockets, in those days our economy was the fastest growing economy in the region at more than 8% per annum and we were not hit by the democratic corruption of PPP and PML or the ethhnic cancer of MQM.




Raider 21 said:


> Don't know who *we *are.
> 
> And it was via FMS. Like I mentioned previously, not sure how accurate that was....


There might be no Muslim unity among the Muslim countries but the "Ummah" means followers of our holy prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and I am proud and thankful to Allah to be an "Ummati", what do you mean there is no Ummah? What are you denying? or are just being careless in your choice of words and endangering your faith?






The Raven said:


> There's no such thing as the "ummah". Pakistan and other muslim countries have been criticising the gulf states for normalising relations with Israel and "selling out" the Palestinians, but are more than happy to continue the "deeper than seas, higher than mountains" relationship with China despite the Uighur issue and selling JF-17 to Myanmar. The "nuclear factor" is the primary interest of the gulf states in Pakistan.
> 
> On the Viper front, I doubt we'll see any new airframes. Used examples are a possibility, as well as upgrades, but other than that, US/Pakistan military ties will gradually fade.

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## Raider 21

Thorough Pro said:


> Peace Gate I happened 40 years ago in 1980 when the Soviet Union was sitting in Afghanistan with Pakistan being the only barrier between the USSR and the warm water of the GULF that was the key passage of 80% of world oil trade. Even if Peace Gate I was financed 100% by KSA or the US gave them 100 free, and as a matter of fact, none of the two happened, what does it matter now? This is 2020. This is a new world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "We" means Pakistan, what else do you think?
> We paid 40mil a pop for 40 planes and we paid everything from our own pockets, in those days our economy was the fastest growing economy in the region at more than 8% per annum and we were not hit by the democratic corruption of PPP and PML or the ethhnic cancer of MQM.
> 
> 
> 
> There might be no Muslim unity among the Muslim countries but the "Ummah" means followers of our holy prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and I am proud and thankful to Allah to be an "Ummati", what do you mean there is no Ummah? What are you denying? or are just being careless in your choice of words and endangering your faith?


Negative sir. By we I didn't know which organisation. Glad it happened. My old man flew them when they were factory fresh, the Viper was the best investment ever.

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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> ok so why the 10 years drama about 3.4b dollars that we sued USA then ultimately got paid in soya bean..come on!!!
> 
> 
> _This brings us back to the F-16s debacle. When the Pressler sanctions came into force, Pakistan was precluded from taking possession of 28 F-16s for which it had made payments until 1993, some three years after the sanctions commenced. *Pakistan paid the Lockheed Corp. $658 million** for the planes, and some reports suggest that Pakistan continued making payments based on Pentagon assurances that continued payments would ensure eventual delivery.*
> 
> 
> Pakistan did not get the planes and was assessed storage and maintenance costs of $50,000 per month for the planes that sat, becoming ever more obsolete, in the Arizona desert. This account is telling: Pakistan preferred to heed the roseate advice of the Pentagon over the clear lines of U.S. law.
> 
> *Under threat of a Pakistani lawsuit*, U.S. president Bill Clinton resolved the issue in late 1998. *Pakistan received $464 million, mostly in cash, which was the remaining amount of the claim. Clinton also agreed to send Pakistan an additional $60 million worth of wheat.* (New Zealand ultimately purchased the F-16s on a 10-year lease-purchase deal that totaled $105 million.)_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> U.S. to Pay Pakistan Back for Undelivered Jets (Published 1998)
> 
> 
> US agrees to pay Pakistan $324.6 million in cash and additional $142.6 million through other means as reimbursement for 28 F-16 fighter jets that Pakistan paid for in 1989 but never received; in return, Pakistan will withdraw its claim to planes; New Zealand will lease them, and all proceeds...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *we *means the poor people of Pakistan dying of hunger in 1990s..




Hi,

Whatever the deal was---150 million went to Benazir Bhutto----. She skimmed off that money from the top.

Paf was fool enough to go for the second batch of the F16's---. They were being told sanctions are coming but they never believed in the threat---.

They had cash at hand---Mirage 2K was ready at that time---I would looked the other way if Benazir skimmed the 150 mil on the mirages deal---.

At least we would have had a deadly weapon to fight our enemy.

Atleast Benazir / Zardari made the deal on the RIGHT PRODUCT---. I am talking about the navy submarines---. Pak navy was looking for british subs---but there was no kick back on them for Benazir---. They went to the french---even though they skimmed the money from the top---we got the best subarines of the time---almost the most advanced subs in asia---.

The British subs the pak navy was lokking for in their ONEST DEAL---they became a rusting hulk over 1/2 a decade ago---.

That HONEST DEAL would have been the worst deal for the country---.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Whatever the deal was---150 million went to Benazir Bhutto----. She skimmed off that money from the top.
> 
> Paf was fool enough to go for the second batch of the F16's---. They were being told sanctions are coming but they never believed in the threat---.
> 
> *They had cash at hand---Mirage 2K was ready at that time---I would looked the other way if Benazir skimmed the 150 mil on the mirages deal---.*
> 
> At least we would have had a deadly weapon to fight our enemy.
> 
> Atleast Benazir / Zardari made the deal on the RIGHT PRODUCT---. I am talking about the navy submarines---. Pak navy was looking for british subs---but there was no kick back on them for Benazir---. They went to the french---even though they skimmed the money from the top---we got the best subarines of the time---almost the most advanced subs in asia---.
> 
> The British subs the pak navy was lokking for in their ONEST DEAL---they became a rusting hulk over 1/2 a decade ago---.
> 
> That HONEST DEAL would have been the worst deal for the country---.







__





The News International: Latest News Breaking, Pakistan News


The News International - latest news and breaking news about Pakistan, world, sports, cricket, business, entertainment, weather, education, lifestyle; opinion & blog | brings 24 x 7 updates




www.thenews.com.pk





They did try for it in the 90s


----------



## MastanKhan

Raider 21 said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The News International: Latest News Breaking, Pakistan News
> 
> 
> The News International - latest news and breaking news about Pakistan, world, sports, cricket, business, entertainment, weather, education, lifestyle; opinion & blog | brings 24 x 7 updates
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thenews.com.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They did try for it in the 90s



Hi,

That was much later---and a goody two shoes a too honest of an air force officer sabotaged the protection of the motherland by delaying the deal---.

At that time---urgency---time---fast quick answer was the answer---an intentional delay jeopardized the safety of pakistan from which it has yet to recover---.

A weapons purchase must never be delayed for corruption---because the news of corruption has been spread by your enemies so that you don't get the weapons to kill them.

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## mshan44



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## Aamir Hussain

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That was much later---and a goody two shoes a too honest of an air force officer sabotaged the protection of the motherland by delaying the deal---.
> 
> At that time---urgency---time---fast quick answer was the answer---an intentional delay jeopardized the safety of Pakistan from which it has yet to recover---.
> 
> A weapons purchase must never be delayed for corruption---because the news of corruption has been spread by your enemies so that you don't get the weapons to kill them.



And you feel there would not have been similar problems operating Mirage 2000 with the French specially when India started hounding us wherever we try to purchase stiff from in the west? 

Both decisions had their pros and cons!

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## MastanKhan

Aamir Hussain said:


> And you feel there would not have been similar problems operating Mirage 2000 with the French specially when India started hounding us wherever we try to purchase stiff from in the west?
> 
> Both decisions had their pros and cons!



Hi,

French never had any problems selling to both sides---. 

As a matter of fact---the French were desperate to sell the M2K's to pakistan at an earlier date and as well as the Rafale at a later date---.

Who better than the PAF to advertise your wares other than Israel.

Our issues with the French came up when we deceived them multiple times.

And these issues are much much recent---.

We got the most advanced subs in our region from the French---the augusta 90 B's.

We got an extremely potent ROSE upgrade for our older mirages---.

The JF17 that we started building in mid 2000's was available to us in the form of the mirage F1 in the early 80's---lock stock & barrel---.

And yet we tend to blame the French---.

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## Imran Khan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> French never had any problems selling to both sides---.
> 
> As a matter of fact---the French were desperate to sell the M2K's to pakistan at an earlier date and as well as the Rafale at a later date---.
> 
> Who better than the PAF to advertise your wares other than Israel.
> 
> Our issues with the French came up when we deceived them multiple times.
> 
> And these issues are much much recent---.
> 
> We got the most advanced subs in our region from the French---the augusta 90 B's.
> 
> We got an extremely potent ROSE upgrade for our older mirages---.
> 
> The JF17 that we started building in mid 2000's was available to us in the form of the mirage F1 in the early 80's---lock stock & barrel---.
> 
> And yet we tend to blame the French---.


*سر کرونا وائرس بنانے اور پھیلانے میں پاکستان ائیر فورس کے کردار پر روشنی ڈال کر ہمیں مستفید فرمائیں  *

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## Readerdefence

Hi basically we all should keep one thing in mind a Country like Pakistan whose economy is always upside should stick to one & only one country even now Pakistani are not fully piggybacking China want to ride both the boats 
this kind of scenario can be good if you have a sound and firm economy where you have the leverage to buy things according to your desire and plan 
i believe so F16 saga is a bygone scenario until unless some miracle happen which is not possible at the moment so at the moment best scenario is China and to some extent involve Russians in local businesses like at the moment they trying to lay a oil pipe line should have involved them to run steel mills again in this way when they have their stakes in Pakistan they will stand behind and supply things according to our desire 
thank you

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## Yasser76

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> French never had any problems selling to both sides---.
> 
> As a matter of fact---the French were desperate to sell the M2K's to pakistan at an earlier date and as well as the Rafale at a later date---.
> 
> Who better than the PAF to advertise your wares other than Israel.
> 
> Our issues with the French came up when we deceived them multiple times.
> 
> And these issues are much much recent---.
> 
> We got the most advanced subs in our region from the French---the augusta 90 B's.
> 
> We got an extremely potent ROSE upgrade for our older mirages---.
> 
> The JF17 that we started building in mid 2000's was available to us in the form of the mirage F1 in the early 80's---lock stock & barrel---.
> 
> And yet we tend to blame the French---.



Agree to an extent here but politics as well as economics play a role here, it's not just about simple deals anymore. We are allied with Turkey, France is facing off with Turkey in the Med, and also basing troops/planes on UAE, in addition the Scorpene and Rafale projects in India.


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## FuturePAF

PakFactor said:


> This obsession of F-16 is to the point of disgusting right now, and people need to move on. US interests have changes to containing China, why would they arm Pakistan now.



It’s the cheapest option considering all the infrastructure built and training given to our pilots and maintainers for the F-16. Consider the PAF still maintains it wants to reach approx. 119 F-16s, it will try to get them if they can when relations improve with the US.

While I agree the PAF should just move on make the best JF-17 Block III they can, Moving also means signaling a break from the US. The PAF likes its western systems, but as the gap closes between the Chinese products and the Western products that chapter maybe closing itself.

Also a FMS would be tied to getting out of FATF and acquiring an aircraft (Block 72) that is on par with the Rafale, which can be relatively quickly inducted.

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## airomerix

Peace gate 1 budgeted to 1.1B USD back in 1981. We acquired $500 Million 'loan' from Saudi Arabia that was later repayed.

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## mingle

airomerix said:


> Peace gate 1 budgeted to 1.1B USD back in 1981. We acquired $500 Million 'loan' from Saudi Arabia that was later repayed.


Any update on US side procurement like zulus or vipers even EDA stuff??

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## MastanKhan

FuturePAF said:


> It’s the cheapest option considering all the infrastructure built and training given to our pilots and maintainers for the F-16. Consider the PAF still maintains it wants to reach approx. 119 F-16s, it will try to get them if they can when relations improve with the US.
> 
> While I agree the PAF should just move on make the best JF-17 Block III they can, Moving also means signaling a break from the US. The PAF likes its western systems, but as the gap closes between the Chinese products and the Western products that chapter maybe closing itself.
> 
> Also a FMS would be tied to getting out of FATF and acquiring an aircraft (Block 72) that is on par with the Rafale, which can be relatively quickly inducted.




Hi,

The soldiers cares less about the infrastructure---.

Let me ask a realistic question---it is a matter of life and death of a nation & I am an old man---.

If your mom or dad were dying today and they needed medicine---would you only go to the pharmacy that is well established but does not sell you the medicine---.

Or you might go to another source which has a similar product that could work and is ready to give you the prescription---.

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## FuturePAF

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The soldiers cares less about the infrastructure---.
> 
> Let me ask a realistic question---it is a matter of life and death of a nation & I am an old man---.
> 
> If your mom or dad were dying today and they needed medicine---would you only go to the pharmacy that is well established but does not sell you the medicine---.
> 
> Or you might go to another source which has a similar product that could work and is ready to give you the prescription---.



You maybe an older man, but you know the PAF. They don’t want to let go. Like I said in the second paragraph; as the JF-17 improves the chapter will close itself. A bird in hand is worth two in the bush to answer your question.


----------



## Ahmet Pasha

Can't believe these threads are still running. 

People on here can't guage the resentment US establishment has for Pakistan. Or any other pro muslim/ anti Israel state. They blame us for their 2 decades of stalemate in Afghanistan. 

Even people sitting on streets in Pakistan know this.

Biden admin might give you a few but there'll be a lot more of arm twisting along with it. 

F16 is past I believe for PAF. With maybe a small chance of some more.


Aamir Hussain said:


> Sir. It is not a one way street when dealing with French. I am privy to some of the happenings where the French jacked us!!! The Daphne deal was tainted with mis-commitments from the very start. Maint. manuals were in French and were charged separately for translation when it should have been included in the deal. PN sent officers to learn French to get over this but in the end had to pay out their of their noses to get the maint. manual translated at ridiculous prices.
> 
> Later in the life cycle of Daphne, The manufacturer one day informed PN that they would no longer be manufacturing the specialized main batteries for the Sub!!! These were the main propulsion batteries for underwater running! All of a sudden the whole sub fleet of PN was now under threat of becoming un-seaworthy!!! Efforts were made to find and procure all batteries that were available around the world. In the end PN had to find and stock two warehouses worth of batteries procured from France, Portugal and some from Spain! A expense that was not envisaged nor was highlighted when selling the subs to PN by the French!! I was part of the effort to find these remaining batteries from around the world.
> 
> However, let us not go by what is known/unknown or whispered behind the scenes. Let us go by the facts:
> 
> 1. Mirage 2000: 601 produced for 6 air forces from 1978 to 2007
> 2. Mirage F-1: 720 produced for 4 air forces from 1966 to 1992
> 3. F-16 and Derivatives:



That's why I am against buying overpriced stuff from gora. Performs well most of the time. But there is better value out there now compared to the past. More vendors to choose from.

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## SD 10

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Can't believe these threads are still running.
> 
> People on here can't guage the resentment US establishment has for Pakistan. Or any other pro muslim/ anti Israel state. They blame us for their 2 decades of stalemate in Afghanistan.
> 
> Even people sitting on streets in Pakistan know this.
> 
> Biden admin might give you a few but there'll be a lot more of arm twisting along with it.
> 
> F16 is past I believe for PAF. With maybe a small chance of some more.
> 
> 
> That's why I am against buying overpriced stuff from gora. Performs well most of the time. But there is better value out there now compared to the past. More vendors to choose from.


but those generals never learns!! they are stubborn as hell!

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## Ghessan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Can't believe these threads are still running.
> 
> People on here can't guage the resentment US establishment has for Pakistan. Or any other pro muslim/ anti Israel state. They blame us for their 2 decades of stalemate in Afghanistan.
> 
> Even people sitting on streets in Pakistan know this.
> 
> Biden admin might give you a few but there'll be a lot more of arm twisting along with it.
> 
> F16 is past I believe for PAF. With maybe a small chance of some more.



i agree, when the Afghan issue is over they may start blaming us for those 2 decades ignoring the face saving and humiliation but it again depend upon the policy they follow for us in the upcoming Biden govt. 

F-16 will be a welcome addition if got a chance otherwise PAF has moved already.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Whatever the deal was---150 million went to Benazir Bhutto----. She skimmed off that money from the top.
> 
> Paf was fool enough to go for the second batch of the F16's---. They were being told sanctions are coming but they never believed in the threat---.
> 
> They had cash at hand---Mirage 2K was ready at that time---I would looked the other way if Benazir skimmed the 150 mil on the mirages deal---.
> 
> At least we would have had a deadly weapon to fight our enemy.
> 
> Atleast Benazir / Zardari made the deal on the RIGHT PRODUCT---. I am talking about the navy submarines---. Pak navy was looking for british subs---but there was no kick back on them for Benazir---. They went to the french---even though they skimmed the money from the top---we got the best subarines of the time---almost the most advanced subs in asia---.
> 
> The British subs the pak navy was lokking for in their ONEST DEAL---they became a rusting hulk over 1/2 a decade ago---.
> 
> That HONEST DEAL would have been the worst deal for the country---.


Yaar Lala,
you have mentioned time again some missed opportunities like Mirage 2000 and the PAF giving away money for 2005 earthquake.

your post deserves a separate thread to talk in detail. this is very interesting story.
the beauty of a real forum discussion is that we don't always have to agree with everything we say to each other. 
I agree with your argument to the best weapon for your men and put the morality sermons on a side if they are coming in the way of something crucial for defense. regarding Benazir govt deal with French on Mirage 2000 I recall (late 80s early 90s) that time it used to be with the French nuclear plant as well but both didn't materialize. Benazir's first or second Govt.

I also recall the Jang Daily quoting the Mirage 2000s at $120 Mil per unit compared to $46 Mil per unit for F-16 (If figures are wrong then I blame my memory or limited knowledge of our Urdu daily defence reporters).

talking about kickbacks, our Naval Admirals were never any faints either,. thing is , what good is an effective and economical F-16 if we are barred from buying it? and in my view all international defence deals 

I dare say, had we gone with Mirage 2000s then our relationship with Desault and French in general would've been to another level (which we never got with Lockheed or Americans).

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## The Eagle

Regretfully, I had to thread ban few of you for sometime so that you can move your off-topic discussion to relevant or appropriate thread and not to derail subject here. The action is taken because a request as such was ignored.

Regards,


----------



## Trailer23

Ahmet Pasha said:


> But there is better value out there now compared to the past. More vendors to choose from.


Such as...

How many vendors are there to choose from? Pickings are slim.

With the exception of Chinese, I don't see anything being available to Pakistan.

We can't deal with the Swedes (SAAB), because of India and because the US will block its Sale (US Components)
We won't deal with the French (Rafale), because of India.
We can't/won't deal with Russia (Su-/MiG-), because CAATSA/India.
EU's Typhoon will cost us a lot & UK won't let the deal go through because of Big Brother.

...& we can't get our hands on used-F-16's 'cause US won't allow it.

So, again - which vendors are currently available to us that we can explore?

I may face some backlash for this, but realistically - the J-10C is a poor-man's F-16 with all its capabilities and what it brings to the table.

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## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> I may face some backlash for this, but realistically - the J-10C is a poor-man's F-16 with all its capabilities and what it brings to the table.


J10 C is a great platform but JF-17 block 3 would be able to provide the same in much less cost, that's why PAF never wanted it..

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## Trailer23

Hodor said:


> ...but JF-17 block 3 would be able to provide the same in much less cost, that's why PAF never wanted it..


Less cost, yes. But still not convinced if its at par with the J-10 because of difference in size & payload carried.

But, we haven't really seen anything to tell us what the Block III can carry. Maybe with those new Wings @Windjammer showed earlier there might be more than meets the eye.

I was merely trying to bring some kind of comparison to the F-16's that we operate.

To me, atleast - the J-10 seems a better compliment to the F-16, as opposed to JF-17.


> ...that's why PAF never wanted it..


Conflicting statement, my friend.

Never wanted it or doesn't (still) want it? Never mind. A discussion for another topic perhaps...

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## Salza

Irfan Baloch said:


> Yaar Lala,
> you have mentioned time again some missed opportunities like Mirage 2000 and the PAF giving away money for 2005 earthquake.
> 
> your post deserves a separate thread to talk in detail. this is very interesting story.
> the beauty of a real forum discussion is that we don't always have to agree with everything we say to each other.
> I agree with your argument to the best weapon for your men and put the morality sermons on a side if they are coming in the way of something crucial for defense. regarding Benazir govt deal with French on Mirage 2000 I recall (late 80s early 90s) that time it used to be with the French nuclear plant as well but both didn't materialize. Benazir's first or second Govt.
> 
> I also recall the Jang Daily quoting the Mirage 2000s at $120 Mil per unit compared to $46 Mil per unit for F-16 (If figures are wrong then I blame my memory or limited knowledge of our Urdu daily defence reporters).
> 
> talking about kickbacks, our Naval Admirals were never any faints either,. thing is , what good is an effective and economical F-16 if we are barred from buying it? and in my view all international defence deals
> 
> I dare say, had we gone with Mirage 2000s then our relationship with Desault and French in general would've been to another level (which we never got with Lockheed or Americans).



Had we opted for Mirage 2000s, India would had bought F16s. Their relationship with Lockheed Martin would had been to another level as well. PAF path probably would had been Mirage 2000s to Rafale where IAF it would had been F16s to F18s. Perhaps we would had more freedom with rafales as compared to F16s.


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## Irfan Baloch

Salza said:


> Had we opted for Mirage 2000s, India would had bought F16s. Their relationship with Lockheed Martin would had been to another level as well. PAF path probably would had been Mirage 2000s to Rafale where IAF it would had been F16s to F18s. Perhaps we would had more freedom with rafales as compared to F16s.


despite whatever route we took or could take LM offered Indians the best F-16s the F-21.
Mirage 2000s or not


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## Windjammer



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## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> I was merely trying to bring some kind of comparison to the F-16's that we operate.
> 
> To me, atleast - the J-10 seems a better compliment to the F-16, as opposed to JF-17.
> 
> Conflicting statement, my friend.
> 
> Never wanted it or doesn't (still) want it? Never mind. A discussion for another topic perhaps...


F-16 is a living legend,no comparison in my view

Never wanted it but..*Majbori*,will tell you...

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## JamD

Hodor said:


> F-16 is a living legend,no comparison in my view
> 
> Never wanted it but..*Majbori*,will tell you...


A few of us have speculated the following. More and more option 1 seems like what's happening with maybe a bit of 2 (depending on opinions within the PAF I am guessing).



JamD said:


> Let me preface this with saying that I have no sources whatsoever. I am merely putting 2 and 2 together based on available information/speculation.
> 
> I believe there is some impediment to the JF-17 BLK3 carrying the PL-15. One of the two or both:
> 1. China is pushing the sale of J-10C by refusing to sell us PL15 unless we buy the J-10C.
> 2. There are limitations of the JF-17BLK3 radar that limit the employable range of the PL15.





kursed said:


> 1. Yes.
> 2. B3 will not be made in enough numbers and even in numbers will not be used against Rafales, directly. We’d be using the off the shelf buy for that.

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## Tipu7

Shouldn't we enclose the entire J10C - F16 saga simply as byproduct of 'political circumstances'?

China need customer for J10 family now and if it's closest allay is not buying it despite of repeated evaluations, then it delivers a bad impression of aircraft in export market.

Similarly in shape of J10C deal, Pakistan can send message to our moody Western allies that PAF hands are not tied as far as fighter aircrafts are concerned. Therefore, Pakistan cannot be coerced via _fighter aircraft diplomacy _by Western powers.

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## Trailer23

Hodor said:


> F-16 is a living legend,no comparison in my view


I couldn't agree with you more.

You of all people know that i'm a huge Falcon/Viper fan. But, ...


> Never wanted it but..*Majbori*,will tell you...


...don't think of it as 'Majbori', but rather an Opportunity.

As great of a success the F-16 has been in the PAF for nearly 4-decades, but its also been a quicksand that we just can't seem to get out of.

Democrats today - Republicans tomorrow.

PTI today - PML (N) tomorrow.

Kickbacks - Corruption - and Lord knows what other ravens we have hiding in the closet.

We could always pick up used-F-16's (if) the US is ever in the mood of selling us any, but lets not beat a dead horse hoping for a miracle and waste another decade in the process.

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## Talon

JamD said:


> A few of us have speculated the following. More and more option 1 seems like what's happening


...!!!

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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> I couldn't agree with you more.
> 
> You of all people know that i'm a huge Falcon/Viper fan. But, ...
> 
> ...don't think of it as 'Majbori', but rather an Opportunity.
> 
> As great of a success the F-16 has been in the PAF for nearly 4-decades, but its also been a quicksand that we just can't seem to get out of.
> 
> Democrats today - Republicans tomorrow.
> 
> PTI today - PML (N) tomorrow.
> 
> Kickbacks - Corruption - and Lord knows what other ravens we have hiding in the closet.
> 
> We could always pick up used-F-16's (if) the US is ever in the mood of selling us any, but lets not beat a dead horse hoping for a miracle and waste another decade in the process.


One should also question the procurement team from Pak's side. Apparently they are terrible from what I have been told. They ask for outer space when the ceiling is 40000 feet.

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## Trailer23

Raider 21 said:


> One should also question the procurement team from Pak's side. Apparently they are terrible from what I have been told. They ask for outer space when the ceiling is 40000 feet.


Okay. Would you care to elaborate on this: Procurement Team

Because only a handful of Members here may have a clue but for most, you'd have to tell us that it means...:
*a.* The Government/Ministry of Defense
*b.* The PAF - which would make no sense as they'd know better than anyone what are the limitations of an Aircraft.


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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> Okay. Would you care to elaborate on this: Procurement Team
> 
> Because only a handful of Members here may have a clue but for most, you'd have to tell us that it means...:
> *a.* The Government/Ministry of Defense
> *b.* The PAF - which would make no sense as they'd know better than anyone what are the limitations of an Aircraft.


a. Gives out the cash. 
It is b. I'll PM you about it. And yes, it shouldn't make sense but you'd be surprised.


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## SQ8

Raider 21 said:


> One should also question the procurement team from Pak's side. Apparently they are terrible from what I have been told. They ask for outer space when the ceiling is 40000 feet.


Im guessing not too many are familiar with procurement practices but claim to make the best deals ala Trump?


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## Nomad40

Hodor said:


> ...!!!


I believe that the J-10c has many hidden capabilities and consider it to be an effective platform to bridge the Gap between F-16 and Jf-17. IMO it can easily take over the F-16s role and leave those fighters for some serious aerial work.

No matter how much we say that the Jf-17 is capable at the end of the day it is a light weight multirole fighter and cannot be compared to the J-10c.

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## The Eagle

Raider 21 said:


> It is b. I'll PM you about it. And yes, it shouldn't make sense but you'd be surprised.



What kind of team is it? Some Intermediate boys having no knowledge while being part of one of the best Air Forces. They must have been asking for Raptor if this is the case as you said. I would rather expect that there are limitations for our side hence, prolonged negotiations & want of best deal to save more for us but this kind of approach,,,, really?

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## Raider 21

The Eagle said:


> What kind of team is it? Some Intermediate boys having no knowledge while being part of one of the best Air Forces. They must have been asking for Raptor if this is the case as you said. I would rather expect that there are limitations for our side hence, prolonged negotiations & want of best deal to save more for us but this kind of approach,,,, really?


Raptor was close enough.

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## Nomad40

The Eagle said:


> What kind of team is it? Some Intermediate boys having no knowledge while being part of one of the best Air Forces. They must have been asking for Raptor if this is the case as you said. I would rather expect that there are limitations for our side hence, prolonged negotiations & want of best deal to save more for us but this kind of approach,,,, really?


Basically I feel there is a divide in the air force. F-16 fanboys and then the realists.


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## The Eagle

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> Basically I feel there is a divide in the air force. F-16 fanboys and then the realists.



Given the capability and performance of a platform, fanboyism only exists outside the concern quarters. Those who likes the Falcon, have their own set of merits & reasons thereof. There are no divide but realistic approach of yay and nay in the same Force.

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## Nomad40

The Eagle said:


> Given the capability and performance of a platform, fanboyism only exists outside the concern quarters. Those who likes the Falcon, have their own set of merits & reasons thereof. There are no divide but realistic approach of yay and nay in the same Force.


Hopefully that is true.


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## mingle

Raider 21 said:


> Raptor was close enough.


F15 is good choice we don't need Raptors

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## Bilal.

Remember that once upon a time we didn’t need twin seat JFTs either....

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## Trailer23

mingle said:


> F15 is good choice we don't need Raptors


Lets just keep the eye on the ball. Conversations about F-15 & Raptors is not just fanboy talk, but is also unrealistic.

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## Incog_nito

Is PAF still open to acquiring more F-16A/Bs from ex-operators as they can easily be upgraded?

And can it become the next Mirages for PAF?


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## Crimson Blue

Incog_nito said:


> Is PAF still open to acquiring more F-16A/Bs from ex-operators as they can easily be upgraded?
> 
> And can it become the next Mirages for PAF?




Why do we want more F-16 from ex-operators? Would US give us AIM-120 Ds and electronics with two way communications?

IMO, F-16 jets with AIM-120 C5 are getting obsolete in South-East Asia scenario. This region has moved on to PL-15 and Meteor.

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## Ghessan

Incog_nito said:


> Is PAF still open to acquiring more F-16A/Bs from ex-operators as they can easily be upgraded?
> 
> And can it become the next Mirages for PAF?



PAF will not let the opportunity go if arise like this, no matter how much we argue they should see farewell.

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## Incog_nito

Crimson Blue said:


> Why do we want more F-16 from ex-operators? Would US give us AIM-120 Ds and electronics with two way communications?
> 
> IMO, F-16 jets with AIM-120 C5 are getting obsolete in South-East Asia scenario. This region has moved on to PL-15 and Meteor.



PAF had bought 500 Aim-120C5s and have used them effectively against IAF. IMO, they are also being integrated with JF-17s too.

I'm sure that MLU-4 upgrade will be available for PAF from LM in coming time soon.

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## Raider 21

Incog_nito said:


> PAF had bought 500 Aim-120C5s and have used them effectively against IAF. *IMO, they are also being integrated with JF-17s too.*
> 
> I'm sure that MLU-4 upgrade will be available for PAF from LM in coming time soon.


That's a negative

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## Incog_nito

Ghessan said:


> PAF will not let the opportunity go if arise like this, no matter how much we argue they should see farewell.


Do you mean bye-bye F-16s?

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## Ghessan

Incog_nito said:


> Do you mean bye-bye F-16s?



no but i mean circumstances may bid farewell.

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## Windjammer

Ashes to ashes, Dust to dust....
If Griffins don't get you, Aggressors must.

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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer

*Viper Over The Himalayas
. *

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## nomi007

Windjammer said:


> *Viper Over The Himalayas
> . *
> 
> View attachment 695959


Its a block-52 viper, its means there is not restriction on these latest F-16s.


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## Windjammer

nomi007 said:


> Its a block-52 viper, its means there is not restriction on these latest F-16s.


What restrictions....do you think US supplied CFTs with these jets for photo shoots or fly across India.

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## airomerix

Some vipers.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> *Viper Over The Himalayas
> . *
> 
> View attachment 695959


That's a great image. Just ruined by the watermark.


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## airomerix

Some unseen pictures of PAF's participation in Redflag.

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## Raider 21

airomerix said:


> Some unseen pictures of PAF's participation in Redflag.
> 
> View attachment 696167
> View attachment 696168
> View attachment 696169
> View attachment 696170
> View attachment 696171
> 
> 
> View attachment 696172
> View attachment 696173
> View attachment 696174


Are those screenshots?? I remember the top one very well. It was Green Flag sortie


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## Trailer23

airomerix said:


> View attachment 696172


This one still has the '***** ACM Sohail Aman*' tagged for the Rio.


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## Metal 0-1

Trailer23 said:


> This one still has the '***** ACM Sohail Aman*' tagged for the Rio.


RIO were assigned to F-14s and F-4s

Modern day fighters have WSO or a Co-Pilot(Can take over whole aircraft).


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## WiderMan

airomerix said:


> Some unseen pictures of PAF's participation in Redflag.
> 
> View attachment 696167
> View attachment 696168
> View attachment 696169
> View attachment 696170
> View attachment 696171
> 
> 
> View attachment 696172
> View attachment 696173
> View attachment 696174



A lot of PAF guys seem to have religious-esque beards now.

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## mshan44



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## m52k85

WiderMan said:


> A lot of PAF guys seem to have religious-esque beards now.


Thank the likes of MTJ


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## Talon

WiderMan said:


> A lot of PAF guys seem to have religious-esque beards now.


Not very long ago,a certain squadron of PAF wore the patch of Tactical Beard Club as 90% of its pilots had proper beards

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## air marshal



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## WiderMan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1342889238921146374


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## Trailer23

WiderMan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1342889238921146374


Or we can watch the actual video...

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## WiderMan

Trailer23 said:


> Or we can watch the actual video...




The quality's absolutely terrible, at least the screengrab looks half decent.


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## mshan44

At PAF base MM.Alam Mian wali


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## Talon

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 700316
> 
> 
> At PAF base MM.Alam Mian wali


That is Shahbaz AB

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## kursed

I wonder if we can go to another Red Flag anytime soon. They have since helped shaping up the future of PAF. In a lot of ways.


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## Windjammer



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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 701241


Recovering at Nellis AFB from a CAS training mission

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## WiderMan

Raider 21 said:


> Recovering at Nellis AFB from a CAS training mission



How can you tell? the aircraft flew with the pod the entire time


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## Raider 21

WiderMan said:


> How can you tell? the aircraft flew with the pod the entire time


As that was taken during Green Flag


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## WiderMan

Raider 21 said:


> As that was taken during Green Flag



Oh I feel dumb


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## Raider 21

WiderMan said:


> Oh I feel dumb











Green Flag-West


MissionGreen Flag-West is a large force, live-fly Joint exercise that provides advanced, realistic and relevant air-to-surface integration warfighter training in a robust contested, degraded, and



www.nellis.af.mil





My apologies. You'll find some info here.


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## ghazi52

Chief of the Air Staff of RAF Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen John Hillier with PAF No. 9 ''Griffins' .

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## WiderMan

Raider 21 said:


> Green Flag-West
> 
> 
> MissionGreen Flag-West is a large force, live-fly Joint exercise that provides advanced, realistic and relevant air-to-surface integration warfighter training in a robust contested, degraded, and
> 
> 
> 
> www.nellis.af.mil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My apologies. You'll find some info here.



That was in regard to my earlier remark, but cheers anyway.


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## ghazi52

Ist Pakistan Air Force Contingent Of F-16 Aircraft At General Dynamics Now (Lockheed Martin) Factory, Fort worth Texas USA.

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## ghazi52

June 26, 2010 - Wing Commander Ghazanfar Latif poses for the camera after ferrying first ever F-16 Block-52 aircraft from U.S to Pakistan. He also led the team that ferried MLU F-16s from Turkey in Feb 2012.
PAF’s fleet of F-16A/B Block-15 are undergoing MLU at Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), Turkey Completed In 2014.

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## air marshal



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## mshan44



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## Tomcats

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1345434440286146560
Full interview here, starts from 26:00

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## Trailer23

This interview with _ACM (retd.) Shahzad Choudhary_ illustrates my point (shared by @Raider 21 and @Hodor ) that F-16 just can't be replaced, discredited or looked down upon because we're finally getting the JF-17 Block III.

The Block III is going to be a great jet and a game-changer for us in many ways with the AESA Radar & PL-15's, but is that all that will be needed to match a Rafale. Yes, we crack jokes that a 4th/4.5 Generation jet at the hands of the IAF is like giving a ricshaw driver an F1 on Silverstone. But in the end, its still a Rafale.

Some of the fellow members have repeatedly insisted that the F-16 is a thing of the past, but its clear that there are somethings that just can't be replicated by even a Block III.

In 17 Days, the new President of the United States will be sworn in. We'll find out within the first 30 Days where Pakistan stands...

The train may have already left the station on us getting a few used-Vipers, but one thing about Politics is that - _you never know._

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## Clairvoyant

Trailer23 said:


> This interview with _ACM (retd.) Shahzad Choudhary_ illustrates my point (shared by @Raider 21 and @Hodor ) that F-16 just can't be replaced, discredited or looked down upon because we're finally getting the JF-17 Block III.
> 
> The Block III is going to be a great jet and a game-changer for us in many ways with the AESA Radar & PL-15's, but is that all that will be needed to match a Rafale. Yes, we crack jokes that a 4th/4.5 Generation jet at the hands of the IAF is like giving a ricshaw driver an F1 on Silverstone. But in the end, its still a Rafale.
> 
> Some of the fellow members have repeatedly insisted that the F-16 is a thing of the past, but its clear that there are somethings that just can't be replicated by even a Block III.
> 
> In 17 Days, the new President of the United States will be sworn in. We'll find out within the first 30 Days where Pakistan stands...
> 
> The train may have already left the station on us getting a few used-Vipers, but one thing about Politics is that - _you never know._




The love story of F.16 and PAF is far from over, given the chance the air force would more than love to get it's hands on new/used F.16's.

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## ziaulislam

Clairvoyant said:


> The love story of F.16 and PAF is far from over, given the chance the air force would more than love to get it's hands on new/used F.16's.


At full tag price.. I doubt
But surely PAF will be trying to get it at reduce price along with am120d

PAF shouldnt put all its eggs in one basket 
It should have mix of both western & eastern fighters

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## Clairvoyant

ziaulislam said:


> At full tag price.. I doubt
> But surely PAF will be trying to get it at reduce price along with am120d
> 
> PAF shouldnt put all its eggs in one basket
> It should have mix of both western & eastern fighters




F.16 is the cutting edge of our air force and they would more than love to get their hands on a few though I highly doubt that we would be able to get the AMRAAM-D on a discounted price.

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## Trailer23

Clairvoyant said:


> AMRAAM-D on a discounted price.


I don't think Aim-120D & discount, both go in the same sentence for any customer.

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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> At full tag price.. I doubt
> But surely PAF will be trying to get it at reduce price along with am120d
> 
> PAF shouldnt put all its eggs in one basket
> It should have mix of both western & eastern fighters


The way i see it is different. Once Blk3 comes off the lines. US Admin carrot over F-16 as being to top echelon fighter diminishes to non-existent; it is now in Pak hand to dictate for getting f-16s as its second tier to get used f16s as needed. Swami Modis wont have much to cry about. As I said before, Blk4 will be on the roadmap in any case with further upgrades on blk 3 as well as upgrades for Blk2 (assuming all blk1 have been upgraded to 2).

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## ziaulislam

denel said:


> The way i see it is different. Once Blk3 comes off the lines. US Admin carrot over F-16 as being to top echelon fighter diminishes to non-existent; it is now in Pak hand to dictate for getting f-16s as its second tier to get used f16s as needed. Swami Modis wont have much to cry about. As I said before, Blk4 will be on the roadmap in any case with further upgrades on blk 3 as well as upgrades for Blk2 (assuming all blk1 have been upgraded to 2).


I think that has already happened
Reason why f16 is available if PAF asks for it but it os costly 

The new verison b70 may be available at 70m that could be resonable option


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## Trailer23

ziaulislam said:


> The new verison b70 may be available at 70m that could be resonable option


Hope that price tag doesn't mean the kind of deal the Iraqi's and Egyptians got with no AMRAAM's.

Plus does that tag cover the AESA - or will they give us a hand-me-down, RadioShack, Dinosaur-age radar from some Block 40 - retrofitted in a Block 70?

Hey, its the Americans. They've written books/manuals how to screw Nations over. We outta know, we have the 1st Edition written on us.

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## Imran Khan

ziaulislam said:


> I think that has already happened
> Reason why f16 is available if PAF asks for it but it os costly
> 
> The new verison b70 may be available at 70m that could be resonable option


that will be biggest stupidity of history

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## denel

ziaulislam said:


> I think that has already happened
> Reason why f16 is available if PAF asks for it but it os costly
> 
> The new verison b70 may be available at 70m that could be resonable option


Correct, what i meant was not b70 if at better cost but the lunacy of strings attached makes it unpalatable. Alternative to get green light to pull many 2nd hand ones and create the Mirage kind of pool

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## ziaulislam

Imran Khan said:


> that will be biggest stupidity of history


ultimate goal is parity with india
aim 120D is something PAF would want to get hands on and that may be the only reason if any for PAF to get new f16 otherwise PAF is no longer interested in f16..

*
gone are the days when Musharraf had to beg for f16 and only other option was f7s*

Mushi._."you are not going to escape this question..."_
Bush.._" president is not afraid to bring up the issue of f16s, he has been strong advocate for the sale of f16s to pakistan..5b package...of which f16s wont be part"_

listen minute 3:00

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## Imran Khan

ziaulislam said:


> ultimate goal is parity with india
> aim 120D is something PAF would want to get hands on and that may be the only reason if any for PAF to get new f16 otherwise PAF is no longer interested in f16..
> 
> 
> *gone are the days when Musharraf had to beg for f16 and only other option was f7s*
> 
> Mushi._."you are not going to escape this question..."_
> Bush.._" president is not afraid to bring up the issue of f16s, he has been strong advocate for the sale of f16s to pakistan..5b package...of which f16s wont be part"_
> 
> listen minute 3:00


i think better then f-16 if we secure 2 dozens of j-31 or j-20

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> At full tag price.. I doubt
> But surely PAF will be trying to get it at reduce price along with am120d
> 
> PAF shouldnt put all its eggs in one basket
> It should have mix of both western & eastern fighters


But blk 70 satandards are cheap around 900 million PAF can have full 18


Imran Khan said:


> i think better then f-16 if we secure 2 dozens of j-31 or j-20





Trailer23 said:


> I don't think Aim-120D & discount, both go in the same sentence for any customer.


I waiting for Viper train used and new a quick replacement for few Mirages


Trailer23 said:


> This interview with _ACM (retd.) Shahzad Choudhary_ illustrates my point (shared by @Raider 21 and @Hodor ) that F-16 just can't be replaced, discredited or looked down upon because we're finally getting the JF-17 Block III.
> 
> The Block III is going to be a great jet and a game-changer for us in many ways with the AESA Radar & PL-15's, but is that all that will be needed to match a Rafale. Yes, we crack jokes that a 4th/4.5 Generation jet at the hands of the IAF is like giving a ricshaw driver an F1 on Silverstone. But in the end, its still a Rafale.
> 
> Some of the fellow members have repeatedly insisted that the F-16 is a thing of the past, but its clear that there are somethings that just can't be replicated by even a Block III.
> 
> In 17 Days, the new President of the United States will be sworn in. We'll find out within the first 30 Days where Pakistan stands...
> 
> The train may have already left the station on us getting a few used-Vipers, but one thing about Politics is that - _you never know._


Any idea about number? And about Zulus?

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## ghazi52

PAF F-16C block 52 #10901 is taxiing by the lens at NAS Fort Worth on December 15th, 2009 after performing a functional check flight.

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## mingle

Imran Khan said:


> i think better then f-16 if we secure 2 dozens of j-31 or j-20


Used with upgrades are cheapest solution and quick retirement for one to two sqdns of Mirage jets


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## ghazi52



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## FuturePAF

What are the chances Biden And Erdogan strike a deal on putting the S-400 away so Turkey can get to buying 100+ F-35, and then Turkey can be cleared to sell it’s used F-16 (but with Turkish AESA upgrade and SLEP) to Pakistan?

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## mingle

FuturePAF said:


> What are the chances Biden And Erdogan strike a deal on putting the S-400 away so Turkey can get to buying 100+ F-35, and then Turkey can be cleared to sell it’s used F-16 (but with Turkish AESA upgrade and SLEP) to Pakistan?


Biden is not bully like Trump Good chances are they will work it out S400 issue pentagon already set up joint working group with turkey for this as far F35 concern pentagon says turkey is leggings behind may need time to pick up things again

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## FuturePAF

mingle said:


> Biden is not bully like Trump Good chances are they will work it out S400 issue pentagon already set up joint working group with turkey for this as far F35 concern pentagon says turkey is leggings behind may need time to pick up things again



The faster Turkey can get back into the F-35 program, the faster Turkey can induct these planes, and the faster they can upgrade and sell off their f-16s to Pakistan.

Hopefully, Pakistan signals this desire to Turkey, so they can begin to do a SLEP on their F-16s now, and upgrade the planes with an AESA radar as Well as integrate all the weapons (indigenous Turkish SOM-J as well as BVR and WVR missiles). once they are ready, and the clearance is given a Hot transfer could be made; or at least Pakistani pilots can start to train on Turkish F-16s.

The Turkish radar is said to be a G

Consider Turkey’s status as a partner nation in the F-35 project, hopefully they will adjust deliveries to end the lagging behind Turkey is going on the induction.

Do you know when Turkey was originally slated to receive its original F-35s? The pilots were training in the US until the CAATSA restrictions kicked in.

Between JF-17 Block III and its radar (hopefully produced in Pakistan) and electronics, and hopefully inducting a Turkish AESA upgraded F-16s, it would a long way in having platforms to work on Project AZM.

Considering the threat Turkey will soon face from Greek Rafales with Meteor missiles, they maybe able to development a missile, as good as the Meteor, that they could integrate into the F-16s and sell to Pakistan. This maybe crucial, if Pakistan is denied the ability to purchase the Aim-120D.

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## Silicon0000

FuturePAF said:


> What are the chances Biden And Erdogan strike a deal on putting the S-400 away so Turkey can get to buying 100+ F-35, and then Turkey can be cleared to sell it’s used F-16 (but with Turkish AESA upgrade and SLEP) to Pakistan?




Zero. Baqi dil ke behlane ko ye khiyal acha hai


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## FuturePAF

Silicon0000 said:


> Zero. Baqi dil ke behlane ko ye khiyal acha hai



That’s ok, when one door closes another one opens. Pakistan will just have to pivot to a different fighter to fill its need.

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## araz

FuturePAF said:


> That’s ok, when one door closes another one opens. Pakistan will just have to pivot to a different fighter to fill its need.


Why cant we just wait for our 5th generation offering in 10 years time concentrating on developing the Thunder via more advanced blocks? What is the urgency of acquiring any platform? I suspect if we sat back we will get something offered to us which could be better than what we currently have. 
A

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## FuturePAF

araz said:


> Why cant we just wait for our 5th generation offering in 10 years time concentrating on developing the Thunder via more advanced blocks? What is the urgency of acquiring any platform? I suspect if we sat back we will get something offered to us which could be better than what we currently have.
> A



Leaving a capability gap open exposes us to the enemy’s adventurism. If we acquire at least 18 F-16 Block 72, out of pocket, it would buy us some time to allow our other projects to develop. It’s the cheapest and psychologically most deterrence generate option via-a-vi the Indians.

Considering everything we learned from the Block 52, procuring just one squadron of Block 72, shouldn’t break the bank but check many of the boxes of our defense needs.

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## mingle

FuturePAF said:


> Leaving a capability gap open exposes us to the enemy’s adventurism. If we acquire at least 18 F-16 Block 72, out of pocket, it would buy us some time to allow our other projects to develop. It’s the cheapest and psychologically most deterrence generate option via-a-vi the Indians.
> 
> Considering everything we learned from the Block 52, procuring just one squadron of Block 72, shouldn’t break the bank but check many of the boxes of our defense needs.


Turkish TFX can be good replacement for MLU vipers

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## Yasser76

araz said:


> Why cant we just wait for our 5th generation offering in 10 years time concentrating on developing the Thunder via more advanced blocks? What is the urgency of acquiring any platform? I suspect if we sat back we will get something offered to us which could be better than what we currently have.
> A



Because than fanboys on here will get bored. Remember it's not about what is best for PAF or Pak Economy, but about looking good on a PDF thread....

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## FuturePAF

mingle said:


> Turkish TFX can be good replacement for MLU vipers



They would be perfect, and they may become the core of project AZM, but currently the issue is the engine.

Buying 18-24 F-16 Block 72 should be the most cost effective and deterrence maintaining Option the PAF could go for for the next 10 years, while we wait for the T-FX/Project AZM to be ready for procurement.

Once the procurement for the T-FX begins, we can start to phase out our old F-16s just like the Turks plan to do.


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## araz

FuturePAF said:


> They would be perfect, and they may become the core of project AZM, but currently the issue is the engine.
> 
> Buying 18-24 F-16 Block 72 should be the most cost effective and deterrence maintaining Option the PAF could go for for the next 10 years, while we wait for the T-FX/Project AZM to be ready for procurement.
> 
> Once the procurement for the T-FX begins, we can start to phase out our old F-16s just like the Turks plan to do.


Again we are looking at a PROJECTwhich is 8-10 years away from fruition. Unless you are looking at getting the production plant the Turks will cater to tbeir own needs first. So add another 5 years . If the truth be told if you are willing to wait 15 years cor the Turkish project why not build your own? The last I checked the 2 biggest hurdles might have been theTurkish engine which unless it is totally indegenous could be at the whims of the provider of parts. Pakistan's dire finqncial situation will not allow it to run 2 such projects so it will either be Azm or TFX. Given tbe choice and the timelines wbat would posters choose?
A

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## FuturePAF

araz said:


> Again we are looking at a PROJECTwhich is 8-10 years away from fruition. Unless you are looking at getting the production plant the Turks will cater to tbeir own needs first. So add another 5 years . If the truth be told if you are willing to wait 15 years cor the Turkish project why not build your own? The last I checked the 2 biggest hurdles might have been theTurkish engine which unless it is totally indegenous could be at the whims of the provider of parts. Pakistan's dire finqncial situation will not allow it to run 2 such projects so it will either be Azm or TFX. Given tbe choice and the timelines wbat would posters choose?
> A



we Know the PAF is committed to AZM fr the very reasons you point out. Due to our financial limitations, the Block III will have to as good as possible. At this point we can’t expect anything more.

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## air marshal



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## Irfan Baloch

WiderMan said:


> A lot of PAF guys seem to have religious-esque beards now.


beards are fine. but must watch out for clean shaven ones too in case they have secret indoctrination like some Naval junior officers who were captured or killed while trying to hijack one of our warships few years back.
the military personnel are constantly monitored and kept under the watch to ensure they dont fall victim to hostile agencies or religious terrorist cults.

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## Path-Finder

Trailer23 said:


> This interview with _ACM (retd.) Shahzad Choudhary_ illustrates my point (shared by @Raider 21 and @Hodor ) that F-16 just can't be replaced, discredited or looked down upon because we're finally getting the JF-17 Block III.
> 
> The Block III is going to be a great jet and a game-changer for us in many ways with the AESA Radar & PL-15's, but is that all that will be needed to match a Rafale. Yes, we crack jokes that a 4th/4.5 Generation jet at the hands of the IAF is like giving a ricshaw driver an F1 on Silverstone. But in the end, its still a Rafale.
> 
> Some of the fellow members have repeatedly insisted that the F-16 is a thing of the past, but its clear that there are somethings that just can't be replicated by even a Block III.
> 
> In 17 Days, the new President of the United States will be sworn in. We'll find out within the first 30 Days where Pakistan stands...
> 
> The train may have already left the station on us getting a few used-Vipers, but one thing about Politics is that - _you never know._


I implore your enthusiasm bro but sadly no more 16's for us. I wonder if the existing will fly or will we have to go back to the days of 90's blockades placed upon us.


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## FuturePAF

Hopefully the Chinese make a breakthrough in Engine technology, and their WS-15 and WS-19 reach intended performances.

At that point we could purchase the J-31 to fill the gap until Project AZM is developed and procured. The added benefit would be a higher thrust WS-19 could be used on future JF-17s, if they perform better than the RD-93MA.


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## GriffinsRule

Issam said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1345434440286146560
> Full interview here, starts from 26:00


Sanity and reality still prevails in PAF

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## Raider 21

GriffinsRule said:


> Sanity and reality still prevails in PAF


Shehzad Chaudhry knows his stuff. He was one of the pioneering F-16 pilots in PAF and has seen how far Project Falcon has come.

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## MastanKhan

Raider 21 said:


> Shehzad Chaudhry knows his stuff. He was one of the pioneering F-16 pilots in PAF and has seen how far Project Falcon has come.



Hi,

He is also a part of the F16 MAFIA---.

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## SQ8

Raider 21 said:


> Shehzad Chaudhry knows his stuff. He was one of the pioneering F-16 pilots in PAF and has seen how far Project Falcon has come.


In other words - he has the education & experience to back up his claims and hence doesn’t sound like a ranting fool.

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## mingle

Raider 21 said:


> Shehzad Chaudhry knows his stuff. He was one of the pioneering F-16 pilots in PAF and has seen how far Project Falcon has come.


Let's see about vipers we will find it very soon in month or two


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## Mig hunter

And here we go.. We have very short term memory.. What is the use of that fancy toy which has so many strings attached and you have always fear of not having much use of it in a prolonged war. He is referring 27 Feb operation which was just one shortie op. Just imagine a prolonged conflict and uncle Sam does its trick which is always done by her eg 99 Kargil conflict, 65 and 71. They always blocked the spares and aid. 
I think it is fare to say we are more attracted toward fancy toys and gora mentality than their actual effectiveness and national resolve. What Chaudhar sab is preaching doesn't reflect the American attitude towards us. When people like him are at the helm of affair we get the exact treatment which we always got from Uncle Sam ie sanctions, suspension of military aid during critical times when we needed it the most. Can he not see what they are doing now they are passing the bill to throw you out from major non NATO ally. 
It's shortsightedness and acting more like famous F 16 Mafia who can't see the bigger picture but only F 16.

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## Tomcats

Mig hunter said:


> . Can he not see what they are doing now they are passing the bill to throw you out from major non NATO ally.
> It's shortsightedness and acting more like famous F 16 Mafia who can't see the bigger picture but only F 16.


Actually that bill is 2 years old, it got thrown out before while republicans were in power, its highly likely that it will too with the democrats. He probably does see the bigger picture, hence why he is being realistic about it, JF17 alone will not win a war nor did it win 27th Feb. The Americans could've considered the usage a breach but did not which shows their attitude at least during that time. If a war does break out Pakistan will use those F-16s when it's life is on the line and the Americans know this.


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## Windjammer



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## FuturePAF

Looks like Republicans are on the verge of losing the senate. I don’t expect this bill to come back, but it also means a Democrat controlled congress will make it harder to secure the F-16 Block 72 sale. Pakistan previously procured F-16s under Republican presidents; Reagan and Bush Jr.

So this maybe the end of the F-16 Saga and the start of the J-10 era in the PAF.

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## Silicon0000

FuturePAF said:


> Leaving a capability gap open exposes us to the enemy’s adventurism. If we acquire at least 18 F-16 Block 72, out of pocket, it would buy us some time to allow our other projects to develop. It’s the cheapest and psychologically most deterrence generate option via-a-vi the Indians.
> 
> Considering everything we learned from the Block 52, procuring just one squadron of Block 72, shouldn’t break the bank but check many of the boxes of our defense needs.





FuturePAF said:


> They would be perfect, and they may become the core of project AZM, but currently the issue is the engine.
> 
> Buying 18-24 F-16 Block 72 should be the most cost effective and deterrence maintaining Option the PAF could go for for the next 10 years, while we wait for the T-FX/Project AZM to be ready for procurement.
> 
> Once the procurement for the T-FX begins, we can start to phase out our old F-16s just like the Turks plan to do.





araz said:


> Again we are looking at a PROJECTwhich is 8-10 years away from fruition. Unless you are looking at getting the production plant the Turks will cater to tbeir own needs first. So add another 5 years . If the truth be told if you are willing to wait 15 years cor the Turkish project why not build your own? The last I checked the 2 biggest hurdles might have been theTurkish engine which unless it is totally indegenous could be at the whims of the provider of parts. Pakistan's dire finqncial situation will not allow it to run 2 such projects so it will either be Azm or TFX. Given tbe choice and the timelines wbat would posters choose?
> A





جب تک سر پر نہ پڑے تب تک ہم نے کچھ نہیں کرنا اور جب ضرورت پڑے تو اپنی رفتار سے دنیا کو حیران کر دینا، پاکستانی ایسی ہی قوم ہے۔ 


That's why It's better to have no Stop-Gap solution (unless it threatened security seriously). That will lead to quick development of JF17 and AZM. 

On the other hand wishes are to have 2-4 Block 70/72 sq. plus lots of oldies from around the world with V-upgrades.

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## Yasser76

FuturePAF said:


> Looks like Republicans are on the verge of losing the senate. I don’t expect this bill to come back, but it also means a Democrat controlled congress will make it harder to secure the F-16 Block 72 sale. Pakistan previously procured F-16s under Republican presidents; Reagan and Bush Jr.
> 
> So this maybe the end of the F-16 Saga and the start of the J-10 era in the PAF.



There seems to be some weird historical linkage that implies GOP is more pro Pak than Dems. Closer examination will show that while Reagan and Bush were, it also shows that Bush Snr was the one who slapped arms embargo on Pak in 90s and Carter (Dem) was first to offer Pak weapons in late 70s. Clinton (Dem) did much to help release funds and some weapons held up by Pressler. 

The three leading members (including chairperson) of the Pakistan Caucus in Congress are Dems.

Lugar-Kerry Bill was made by Dems

The two most sympathetic senior members of Congress were Kerry and Biden. Both Dems.

US acts in it's interests irrespective of what party is in power

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## CHI RULES

FuturePAF said:


> Leaving a capability gap open exposes us to the enemy’s adventurism. If we acquire at least 18 F-16 Block 72, out of pocket, it would buy us some time to allow our other projects to develop. It’s the cheapest and psychologically most deterrence generate option via-a-vi the Indians.
> 
> Considering everything we learned from the Block 52, procuring just one squadron of Block 72, shouldn’t break the bank but check many of the boxes of our defense needs.


Sir more cost effective way perhaps shall be to get V upgrade for existing two squadrons of F16 instead of going for new Block 72 squadron.

On other side PAF also has fairly large number of old jets which though due to PAF strategy and tactics are still relevant yet may lose their relevance in full scale war where qualitative platforms in large numbers do matter. If even want to use Mirage V for longer time even then there are 110+ app F7P/pg Mirage III required to be replaced.

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## FuturePAF

CHI RULES said:


> Sir more cost effective way perhaps shall be to get V upgrade for existing two squadrons of F16 instead of going for new Block 72 squadron.
> 
> On other side PAF also has fairly large number of old jets which though due to PAF strategy and tactics are still relevant yet may lose their relevance in full scale war where qualitative platforms in large numbers do matter. If even want to use Mirage V for longer time even then there are 110+ app F7P/pg Mirage III required to be replaced.



That would be fine too, but approval to get the upgrade would be the same as getting the approval to buy new planes. Cost would obviously be less to just do the upgrade, but if they are ok selling the upgrade kit, they would want us to buy new planes. Either way, the balls in Biden and US Congress’ hands.


Yasser76 said:


> There seems to be some weird historical linkage that implies GOP is more pro Pak than Dems. Closer examination will show that while Reagan and Bush were, it also shows that Bush Snr was the one who slapped arms embargo on Pak in 90s and Carter (Dem) was first to offer Pak weapons in late 70s. Clinton (Dem) did much to help release funds and some weapons held up by Pressler.
> 
> The three leading members (including chairperson) of the Pakistan Caucus in Congress are Dems.
> 
> Lugar-Kerry Bill was made by Dems
> 
> The two most sympathetic senior members of Congress were Kerry and Biden. Both Dems.
> 
> US acts in it's interests irrespective of what party is in power



The Dems are also anti-arms sales, so we have to look at which party of was in control of either or both houses of Congress when these arms sales were made.

Having said that, yes the Dems are more sympathetic in giving aid, but they are the party that attaches the most strings; look at the millions for a gender program in the recent US spending bill.


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## GriffinsRule

This bill is dead on arrival and introduced by a pro-indian congressman. Doesn't mean it will garner any support or traction

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## mingle

GriffinsRule said:


> This bill is dead on arrival and introduced by a pro-indian congressman. Doesn't mean it will garner any support or traction


These are private members bills anyone can introduce it to pass it needs majority. US will keep pak on her side no matter what so pak has same wish otherway around

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## ghazi52



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## denel

CHI RULES said:


> Sir more cost effective way perhaps shall be to get V upgrade for existing two squadrons of F16 instead of going for new Block 72 squadron.
> 
> On other side PAF also has fairly large number of old jets which though due to PAF strategy and tactics are still relevant yet may lose their relevance in full scale war where qualitative platforms in large numbers do matter. If even want to use Mirage V for longer time even then there are 110+ app F7P/pg Mirage III required to be replaced.



If this report is to be reviewed; it is interesting to see J11BG appears to be showing some interest;








After JF-17 Fighter, Chinese J-11B Jet could be next on Pakistan’s Shopping List


Pakistan’s new fighter jet buy could narrow down to China’s J-11B aircraft as the induction of Rafale jets by India has tilted the air power balance in favor of New Delhi. The participation of the J-11B fighter jets in the recently concluded China-Pak Shaheen-9 air exercise besides their recent...




www.defenseworld.net





Again, it all depends how urgent the need is.


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## ghazi52

Wing Commander Nouman Ali Khan And Wing Commander Noman Akram Shaheed In One Picture.

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## Windjammer

It's all in a teamwork.

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## Ahmet Pasha

WiderMan said:


> A lot of PAF guys seem to have religious-esque beards now.


And the Western air forces and airlines force people to shave. What a sham excuse.


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## Readerdefence

denel said:


> If this report is to be reviewed; it is interesting to see J11BG appears to be showing some interest;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After JF-17 Fighter, Chinese J-11B Jet could be next on Pakistan’s Shopping List
> 
> 
> Pakistan’s new fighter jet buy could narrow down to China’s J-11B aircraft as the induction of Rafale jets by India has tilted the air power balance in favor of New Delhi. The participation of the J-11B fighter jets in the recently concluded China-Pak Shaheen-9 air exercise besides their recent...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defenseworld.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, it all depends how urgent the need is.


Hi denel thanks for this nice post but my Q is to you is why J11 why not J16 with a air refuelling probe also and offcourse more lethal and new technology wise as compare to J11BG if deino doesn’t get offended better option should be J16 as my understanding is with the stealth J20 Chinese will partner J16 more often 
have any comparison info between the two Js
thank you


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## denel

Readerdefence said:


> Hi denel thanks for this nice post but my Q is to you is why J11 why not J16 with a air refuelling probe also and offcourse more lethal and new technology wise as compare to J11BG if deino doesn’t get offended better option should be J16 as my understanding is with the stealth J20 Chinese will partner J16 more often
> have any comparison info between the two Js
> thank you


Correct, that was my Q too. J16 is definitely far more advanced and cutting edge.

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## ziaulislam

FuturePAF said:


> Looks like Republicans are on the verge of losing the senate. I don’t expect this bill to come back, but it also means a Democrat controlled congress will make it harder to secure the F-16 Block 72 sale. Pakistan previously procured F-16s under Republican presidents; Reagan and Bush Jr.
> 
> So this maybe the end of the F-16 Saga and the start of the J-10 era in the PAF.


truehowever times have chnaged

biden-obama did proposed an f16 sale that was blocked by the republicans

you need to understand that parties have been changing, right now we have better chance of getting anything(if possible) under democrats rather then republicans

why democrats will try to negotiate their needs with Pakistan(carrot & stick), republicans were planning on bullying(stick only).

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## FuturePAF

ziaulislam said:


> truehowever times have chnaged
> 
> biden-obama did proposed an f16 sale that was blocked by the republicans
> 
> you need to understand that parties have been changing, right now we have better chance of getting anything(if possible) under democrats rather then republicans
> 
> why democrats will try to negotiate their needs with Pakistan(carrot & stick), republicans were planning on bullying(stick only).



I hope your right. It’s hard to gauge these transitions as all parties involved evolve based on their interests. Democrats will definitely try a carrot and stick approach, especially when it comes to arms sales, so as not to lose support in their base.

Also, Considering Pakistan’s measured and responsible response in Feb’19, a sale of at least 18-24 New Block 72 (and used F-16s as excess defense articles to maintain regional balance) wouldn’t be out of the picture.

If Biden can make the case, it’s possible the democrats will go along. it will definitely be easier with one party in control of the presidency and both houses of Congress, but this could change in little over a year and a half. Pakistan should really make the case this year to get F-16s, AH-1Zs and to end the financial pressures of FATF, so Pakistan can accelerate its economic recovery at lower interest rates.

If the US is to counter balance China and continuing to receive Pakistani support in the Afghan peace process, it will have to start by rebuilding favor in Pakistan.

———
The J-11BG maybe sufficiently cheaper then the J-16 that the PAF considered it worthwhile purchasing. The J-11BG may also be easier to distinguish from a Su-30 then a J-16; to prevent fratricide. Finally the J-11BG maybe considerable more suited for the A2A role versus the J-16 which maybe better suited for a multi role (not as optimized for the A2A in terms of extra A2G sensors and extra weight, cost to maintain, etc.)

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## Raider 21

Ahmet Pasha said:


> And the Western air forces and airlines force people to shave. What a sham excuse.


Depends. It is now relaxed in the US. Canada has no rule to not have beards. Same goes for the UK. And this is for their fighter pilots, I'm not sure about the commercial pilots.


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## ghazi52



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## Ahmet Pasha

Raider 21 said:


> Depends. It is now relaxed in the US. Canada has no rule to not have beards. Same goes for the UK. And this is for their fighter pilots, I'm not sure about the commercial pilots.


Yeah the military has relaxed it following intense lobbying by Sikhs especially and some muslims.

But the airlines get to make their own rules unless someone fights them in court for it. Guess what, folks who fight them for this mysteriously start failing their check rides,medicals and are generally fired for one reason or another. Airlines are dominated by white patriarchy that traces it's roots to segregation era USofA. They believe proper man should be shaved. Airlines also are filled with former military types beards, who can't stomach beards easily especially post 9/11 except the new generation (from this lot even the ex mil guys are sometimes seen advocating for beards).

These are all conversations I've had on commercial pilot forums and on reddit.


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## Windjammer



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## Raider 21

Ahmet Pasha said:


> Yeah the military has relaxed it following intense lobbying by Sikhs especially and some muslims.
> 
> But the airlines get to make their own rules unless someone fights them in court for it. Guess what, folks who fight them for this mysteriously start failing their check rides,medicals and are generally fired for one reason or another. Airlines are dominated by white patriarchy that traces it's roots to segregation era USofA. They believe proper man should be shaved. Airlines also are filled with former military types beards, who can't stomach beards easily especially post 9/11 except the new generation (from this lot even the ex mil guys are sometimes seen advocating for beards).
> 
> These are all conversations I've had on commercial pilot forums and on reddit.


I have personally seen CF-18 pilots....including Hindus and Muslims with beards but they had to be kept in certain length due to the oxygen/comms masks.

I've seen it 50/50 with the commercial guys. Some have it, some don't.

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## Nomad40

Raider 21 said:


> I have personally seen CF-18 pilots....including Hindus and Muslims with beards but they had to be kept in certain length due to the oxygen/comms masks.
> 
> I've seen it 50/50 with the commercial guys. Some have it, some don't.


RCAF- facial hair for religious purposes

epicstash 

clean shave

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## Ahmet Pasha

Raider 21 said:


> I have personally seen CF-18 pilots....including Hindus and Muslims with beards but they had to be kept in certain length due to the oxygen/comms masks.
> 
> I've seen it 50/50 with the commercial guys. Some have it, some don't.


Yeah Canada commercial and military are way more laid back. But beards with U.S airlines. Forget about it.

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## MastanKhan

Ahmet Pasha said:


> And the Western air forces and airlines force people to shave. What a sham excuse.



Hi,

Start charging those with beards who committ criminal acts for BLASPHEMY and see how many would grow a beard---.

Pakistanis make an excuse that their beard is sunnat of Prophet Mohammad pbuh---but when they commit a crime while follwing sunnat---they are degrading the name fo teh Prophet Mohammad pbuh---thus should be charged with BLASPHEMY act---.

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## Ahmet Pasha

Every Saint has a past 
Every sinner will have a future


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Start charging those with beards who committ criminal acts for BLASPHEMY and see how many would grow a beard---.
> 
> Pakistanis make an excuse that their beard is sunnat of Prophet Mohammad pbuh---but when they commit a crime while follwing sunnat---they are degrading the name fo teh Prophet Mohammad pbuh---thus should be charged with BLASPHEMY act---.

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## CHI RULES

denel said:


> If this report is to be reviewed; it is interesting to see J11BG appears to be showing some interest;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After JF-17 Fighter, Chinese J-11B Jet could be next on Pakistan’s Shopping List
> 
> 
> Pakistan’s new fighter jet buy could narrow down to China’s J-11B aircraft as the induction of Rafale jets by India has tilted the air power balance in favor of New Delhi. The participation of the J-11B fighter jets in the recently concluded China-Pak Shaheen-9 air exercise besides their recent...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defenseworld.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, it all depends how urgent the need is.


As per my humble opinion J11bg is also in rumors as a prospect for PAF just like J10C. But many are pointing towards J31 customized version also in medium term.

However considering legacy of F16 for PAF even if any other platform is selected there are vital chances for either V upgrade or block 72 induction depending upon policy of new US govt.

However it is a fact that PAF is monitoring the induction of Rafale very closely and they shall be bound to get a better platform in case of additional Rafale agreement as well with materialization of upgrade projects like Super Sukhoi and Mig 29.

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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348284057835233285

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## denel

CHI RULES said:


> As per my humble opinion J11bg is also in rumors as a prospect for PAF just like J10C. But many are pointing towards J31 customized version also in medium term.
> 
> However considering legacy of F16 for PAF even if any other platform is selected there are vital chances for either V upgrade or block 72 induction depending upon policy of new US govt.
> 
> However it is a fact that PAF is monitoring the induction of Rafale very closely and they shall be bound to get a better platform in case of additional Rafale agreement as well with materialization of upgrade projects like Super Sukhoi and Mig 29.


I do concur; these are rumours nothing else. Focus remains on Blk3/17b.

But what is interesting .. buzz word that speaks a lot in ambiguity ... "Interoperatibility".

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## HRK

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348284057835233285


yaar ye twitter ki awam sensationalism se kabi baaz nahi aye gi .... Acha kase clip ki Qadri shaib ne asi tesi kar di ..... 

Anyone who have little knowledge could tell its somewhere b/w Jacobabad and Sukkur region which is not near to International border .....

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## Windjammer

HRK said:


> yaar ye twitter ki awam sensationalism se kabi baaz nahi aye gi .... Acha kase clip ki Qadri shaib ne asi tesi kar di .....
> 
> Anyone who have little knowledge could tell its somewhere b/w Jacobabad and Sukkur region which is not near to International border .....


Bus Bhai Bandar kay haath mein bandooq wali baat hey warna to Qadri sahib ney 23 March ko bi issey khatey mein dala hey. 🥺


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1348337156578807812

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## ghazi52

The Sukhoi Slayer - Wg Cdr Hassan Siddique

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## Ahmet Pasha

ghazi52 said:


> The Sukhoi Slayer - Wg Cdr Hassan Siddique
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 705667


İf only that Sukhoi would have fallen in our area. We would have been able to claim it, as well.


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## StructE

HRK said:


> Anyone who have little knowledge could tell its somewhere b/w Jacobabad and Sukkur region which is not near to International border .....


And this is based on the that date palm tree?


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## HRK

StructE said:


> And this is based on the that date palm tree?


1 of the reasons

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## CHI RULES

denel said:


> I do concur; these are rumours nothing else. Focus remains on Blk3/17b.
> 
> But what is interesting .. buzz word that speaks a lot in ambiguity ... "Interoperatibility".



Sir interoperability may have much deeper meaning considering your defense related experience I assume you understand it much clearly in Pak -China vs India scenario.

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## denel

CHI RULES said:


> Sir interoperability may have much deeper meaning considering your defense related experience I assume you understand it much clearly in Pak -China vs India scenario.


Yes - even more so; this means entire squadrons can be moved over either ways; similar shared doctrine and operating practices, data links, as well as sending manpower or machines or both.

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## Trailer23

*USAF* vid - but just to get an idea of what goes on inside that bubble canopy for a first timer.
Enjoy!






@airomerix @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Hodor @Raider 21 @Windjammer @Akh1112 @GriffinsRule

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## GriffinsRule

Trailer23 said:


> *USAF* vid - but just to get an idea of what goes on inside that bubble canopy for a first timer.
> Enjoy!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @airomerix @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Hodor @Raider 21 @Windjammer @Akh1112 @GriffinsRule


It's all about looking cool at the end lol


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## Trailer23

GriffinsRule said:


> It's all about looking cool at the end lol


...and not puking after your first flight.


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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> *USAF* vid - but just to get an idea of what goes on inside that bubble canopy for a first timer.
> Enjoy!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @airomerix @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Hodor @Raider 21 @Windjammer @Akh1112 @GriffinsRule


Been very fortunate to see it from the inside like that. The visibility is surreal. Like sitting on the rooftop of a car.

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## Trailer23

Raider 21 said:


> Been very fortunate to see it from the inside like that. The visibility is surreal. Like sitting on the rooftop of a car.


Me too, but with the canopy open (obviously). God Bless Airshows.


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## Windjammer

Once a PAF Viper Commander told me how his Jordanian counterpart was green with envy as how PAF crew keep their fleet maintained. A close look at the business end of this over 35 year old PAF Viper proves this theory.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> Once a PAF Viper Commander told me how his Jordanian counterpart was green with envy as how PAF crew keep their fleet maintained. A close look at the business end of this over 35 year old PAF Viper proves this theory.
> 
> 
> View attachment 706940
> 
> 
> View attachment 706941


PAF is very much an effective force because of its underrated maintenance group. They have even fixed Vipers when GD couldn't determine problems with the jets back in the 1980s.

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## SQ8

Raider 21 said:


> PAF is very much an effective force because of its underrated maintenance group. They have even fixed Vipers when GD couldn't determine problems with the jets back in the 1980s.


That also has to do in large part to the realization that those 40 odd vipers were the sharp edge of the sword. However, maintenance errors have occurred leading to the loss of a viper by installing a Mirage part.

It all comes down to effective training and leadership.

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## Dazzler



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## Incog_nito

What are the possibilities of buying F-16s from the USA with the new Govt. in the White House?

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## ghazi52

Ready to go..............

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## Kingslayerr

Why PAF didn't bothered to buy Air refueling tankers for the F-16s?


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## krash

Kingslayerr said:


> Why PAF didn't bothered to buy Air refueling tankers for the F-16s?



Did try in the early 90s, I believe. They were denied by the US, along with the AWACS we requested.

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## MastanKhan

Incog_nito said:


> What are the possibilities of buying F-16s from the USA with the new Govt. in the White House?



Hi,

Zero to None---. 

*The problem is not in buying---the problem is in delivering---US is not a trusted supplier anymore---. Any govt to govt agreement---signed documents do not mean anything in the US anymore---. Any congressman / senator can challenge a signed agreement and place sanctions----per President Duterte of Phillipines.*

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## User

Trailer23 said:


> *USAF* vid - but just to get an idea of what goes on inside that bubble canopy for a first timer.
> Enjoy!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @airomerix @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Hodor @Raider 21 @Windjammer @Akh1112 @GriffinsRule


Is this GIB?


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## Windjammer



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## Raja Porus

Looks like another planet, perhaps Neptune. Beautiful.
Btw why is an American tanker refueling them. I mean can anyone tell which occasion it was?

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## FuturePAF

Desert Fox 1 said:


> View attachment 708503
> 
> 
> Looks like another planet, perhaps Neptune. Beautiful.
> Btw why is an American tanker refueling them. I mean can anyone tell which occasion it was?



Probably when they were on their way to Red Flag


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## Raja Porus

FuturePAF said:


> Probably when they were on their way to Red Flag


Yep. That's what I was thinking

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## Yasser76

Biden administration to revive military-to-military ties with Pakistan


“Pakistan has also taken steps against anti-Indian groups, such as LeT and JeM, although progress is incomplete,” says Gen Austin.



www.dawn.com

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## Raja Porus

Yasser76 said:


> Biden administration to revive military-to-military ties with Pakistan
> 
> 
> “Pakistan has also taken steps against anti-Indian groups, such as LeT and JeM, although progress is incomplete,” says Gen Austin.
> 
> 
> 
> www.dawn.com


Hoping for the best.
*The general, however, acknowledged that “many factors in addition to the security assistance suspension may impact Pakistan’s cooperation, *including Afghanistan negotiations and the dangerous escalation following the Pulwama terrorist attack.”
This seems promising

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## Raja Porus




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## Yasser76

I cannot think of any US President in recent history who knows Pakistan as well as Biden. He has visited many times, was instrumental in aid packages and support, so whatever his strategy is towards South Asia it will come from a position of knowledge not ignorance. He is also VERY aware that Pakistan suffers from Indian shenanigans too, so simply will not buy into Indias accusations against Pakistan, of course he has to balance this against needing India against China.

Of course Austin knows much of Pak Mil leadership from his days as head of CENTCOM. 

In all I am quietly optimistic that we MAY see at least some approvals for EDA (preferably used F-16s, more M109s, maybe more C-130s), I think any major F-16V upgrade programme may have to be paid out of Pakistani funds.

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## Raja Porus

Yasser76 said:


> I cannot think of any US President in recent history who knows Pakistan as well as Biden. He has visited many times, was instrumental in aid packages and support, so whatever his strategy is towards South Asia it will come from a position of knowledge not ignorance. He is also VERY aware that Pakistan suffers from Indian shenanigans too, so simply will not buy into Indias accusations against Pakistan, of course he has to balance this against needing India against China.
> 
> Of course Austin knows much of Pak Mil leadership from his days as head of CENTCOM.
> 
> In all I am quietly optimistic that we MAY see at least some approvals for EDA (preferably used F-16s, more M109s, maybe more C-130s), I think any major F-16V upgrade programme may have to be paid out of Pakistani funds.


If we get f16s than hopefully we can say good bye to the j10 rumours. Also it would be great if we get vipers as well as c130s


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## Ghessan

Desert Fox 1 said:


> View attachment 708597



we must not sell cheap, let them bring everything to the table (demands) 

weigh them, if not workable as per integrity of the country just refuse otherwise ask what they offer in return. we have nothing to lose with this new administration, damage is already there. 

the most important thing we should ask is trade along with "relationship not compromised or influenced by their policies towards India"

i doubt CSF, in that case pay for everything, are we willing?

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## Yasser76

Desert Fox 1 said:


> If we get f16s than hopefully we can say good bye to the j10 rumours. Also it would be great if we get vipers as well as c130s



Stored A/B frames from EDA is a good win/win for both sides.

Issue now is basically what you do with them. MLU update is now almost out of date and no point in doing. So essentially we could just get stored early model C/Ds or Ex European MLUs, which would actually fit better into PAF force structure. Unless we shell out a few billion to get get EDAs and upgrade them and entire current PAF EDA fleet to V standard.

My approach would be get another 40 EDA F-16s to get PAF fleet total to 115 planes. Upgrade all 115 to V.

Taiwan is paying $5Billion to upgrade 144 F-16A/Bs to V standard, so you will probably be looking at around $3-4 Billion for Pakistan, but 115 F-16Vs pretty much erases need for J-10C and puts us in a very healthy position as combined with more JF-17s means you are easily looking at an all F-16/JF-17 PAF of around 7 F-16 Squadrons and 12 JF-17 squadrons. Puts us in a health position till AZM at full production

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## araz

Yasser76 said:


> Stored A/B frames from EDA is a good win/win for both sides.
> 
> Issue now is basically what you do with them. MLU update is now almost out of date and no point in doing. So essentially we could just get stored early model C/Ds or Ex European MLUs, which would actually fit better into PAF force structure. Unless we shell out a few billion to get get EDAs and upgrade them and entire current PAF EDA fleet to V standard.
> 
> My approach would be get another 40 EDA F-16s to get PAF fleet total to 115 planes. Upgrade all 115 to V.
> 
> Taiwan is paying $5Billion to upgrade 144 F-16A/Bs to V standard, so you will probably be looking at around $3-4 Billion for Pakistan, but 115 F-16Vs pretty much erases need for J-10C and puts us in a very healthy position as combined with more JF-17s means you are easily looking at an all F-16/JF-17 PAF of around 7 F-16 Squadrons and 12 JF-17 squadrons. Puts us in a health position till AZM at full production


Lockmart/US Govtt has previously resisted our requests for all older platforms plus the boneyard might not have suitable A/Bs to upgrade due to life left on airframe. It might bebetter to get 32/42s and upgrade. I have asked the queztion repeatedly and not got an answer as to why PAF has not gone down the route already and what additional infrastructure would be required. Knowing US it would require us to buy some new planes to get the upgrades we want and this is where things might get tough for us financially. I assume 72s will be a different hardware with its own infrastructure and revamping all of it will require new training for all pilotsand most importantly technicians.
A


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## Yasser76

araz said:


> Lockmart/US Govtt has previously resisted our requests for all older platforms plus the boneyard might not have suitable A/Bs to upgrade due to life left on airframe. It might bebetter to get 32/42s and upgrade. I have asked the queztion repeatedly and not got an answer as to why PAF has not gone down the route already and what additional infrastructure would be required. Knowing US it would require us to buy some new planes to get the upgrades we want and this is where things might get tough for us financially. I assume 72s will be a different hardware with its own infrastructure and revamping all of it will require new training for all pilotsand most importantly technicians.
> A




Agreed, but as more and more NATO F-35s are delivered I think we can expect to see even more Belgium, Dutch, Norwegian and Danish F-16s become available and they are all MLU'd to very similar standards to the PAF (Think PAF MLU maybe M4 tape), these would very easily fit into PAF, be very cheap and only require US end user approval. 

As for the difference in infrastructure for the V, I am pretty sure it's just a AESA radar and new mission computer, not much of a new challenge for training or maintence

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## araz

Yasser76 said:


> Agreed, but as more and more NATO F-35s are delivered I think we can expect to see even more Belgium, Dutch, Norwegian and Danish F-16s become available and they are all MLU'd to very similar standards to the PAF (Think PAF MLU maybe M4 tape), these would very easily fit into PAF, be very cheap and only require US end user approval.
> 
> As for the difference in infrastructure for the V, I am pretty sure it's just a AESA radar and new mission computer, not much of a new challenge for training or maintence


The question of airframe life left still is pivotal. Plus US would not let us buy from third party without gettung us to buy some new ones. It seems from PAFs buying in 2006 that at least 36 were commited for to get 28MLU plus kits. So how many do we have to buy to get the upgrades we want. Lastly the perrineal question of finances remains. Either case this makes a lot more sense than J10s.
A
A

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## Yasser76

araz said:


> The question of airframe life left still is pivotal. Plus US would not let us buy from third party without gettung us to buy some new ones. It seems from PAFs buying in 2006 that at least 36 were commited for to get 28MLU plus kits. So how many do we have to buy to get the upgrades we want. Lastly the perrineal question of finances remains. Either case this makes a lot more sense than J10s.
> A
> A




Totally agree


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## Windjammer



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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> The question of airframe life left still is pivotal. Plus US would not let us buy from third party without gettung us to buy some new ones. It seems from PAFs buying in 2006 that at least 36 were commited for to get 28MLU plus kits. So how many do we have to buy to get the upgrades we want. Lastly the perrineal question of finances remains. Either case this makes a lot more sense than J10s.
> A
> A


given vast experience of f16 around the world, upgrade for life fram have already been worked out e.g in case of taiwan
i think a package can easily be brought to up the life from 8000hrs to 12000 hrs

i doubt this package will cost more then 4-5m/plan, if we can get frame for 3-4m from thrid countries, this can be <10m solution and very potent way to quickly replace a large amount of jets

we can then focus on improving jf17 for specialized role like strike using stand off weapons or we can simply keep 2-3 squardons of mirages rather then using so many mirages for other roles
jordanian f16s and many frames in europe are around 6000 hours 
even USA has many EDA frames at around 4000 hours

issue is not availaiblity but USA approval and finances

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## Yasser76

ziaulislam said:


> given vast experience of f16 around the world, upgrade for life fram have already been worked out e.g in case of taiwan
> i think a package can easily be brought to up the life from 8000hrs to 12000 hrs
> 
> i doubt this package will cost more then 4-5m/plan, if we can get frame for 3-4m from thrid countries, this can be <10m solution and very potent way to quickly replace a large amount of jets
> 
> we can then focus on improving jf17 for specialized role like strike using stand off weapons or we can simply keep 2-3 squardons of mirages rather then using so many mirages for other roles
> jordanian f16s and many frames in europe are around 6000 hours
> even USA has many EDA frames at around 4000 hours
> 
> issue is not availaiblity but USA approval and finances




Exactly, Pakistan is one of the very few countries with

1) Demand for more F-16 airframes
2) Ability to easily absorb many more quickly (bases, pilots, technicians etc)
3) Ability to upgrade with TAI support

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## Path-Finder

oh dear has the hope of new gov = more F16 still strong among us?


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## Yasser76

Path-Finder said:


> oh dear has the hope of new gov = more F16 still strong among us?



Nothing wrong with more F-16s if they come cheap or free. Can also use surplus frames as spare parts source.

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## Blueskiez 2001

Oh no plz do not write 50+ pages on IF Pakistan will get more F16....

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## Yasser76

Blueskiez 2001 said:


> Oh no plz do not write 50+ pages on IF Pakistan will get more F16....




Hahahaha, if we stopped doing that there would be no PDF!

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## mingle

araz said:


> The question of airframe life left still is pivotal. Plus US would not let us buy from third party without gettung us to buy some new ones. It seems from PAFs buying in 2006 that at least 36 were commited for to get 28MLU plus kits. So how many do we have to buy to get the upgrades we want. Lastly the perrineal question of finances remains. Either case this makes a lot more sense than J10s.
> A
> A


Cpl Blk70 sqdn won't be more than 2 billions but with that shopping if PAF gets her hands on used airframes as many as they want not a bad deal with V upgrades to whole fleet along C130 there are Belgium used H available and local MRO would be great


Blueskiez 2001 said:


> Oh no plz do not write 50+ pages on IF Pakistan will get more F16....


That's what a forum means

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## ghazi52

Nice angle

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> given vast experience of f16 around the world, upgrade for life fram have already been worked out e.g in case of taiwan
> i think a package can easily be brought to up the life from 8000hrs to 12000 hrs
> 
> i doubt this package will cost more then 4-5m/plan, if we can get frame for 3-4m from thrid countries, this can be <10m solution and very potent way to quickly replace a large amount of jets
> 
> we can then focus on improving jf17 for specialized role like strike using stand off weapons or we can simply keep 2-3 squardons of mirages rather then using so many mirages for other roles
> jordanian f16s and many frames in europe are around 6000 hours
> even USA has many EDA frames at around 4000 hours
> 
> issue is not availaiblity but USA approval and finances


Alot of surplus F16s are available now in EU and US since F35 is replacing NATO countries F16s


Yasser76 said:


> Exactly, Pakistan is one of the very few countries with
> 
> 1) Demand for more F-16 airframes
> 2) Ability to easily absorb many more quickly (bases, pilots, technicians etc)
> 3) Ability to upgrade with TAI support


This time I doubt US will allow TAI more likely they will do by themselves current US Turkey relation also Americans vendors looking business post COVID
I am in favour of 36New along 40-45 used airframes that's make a good 150-160 jetts a lot of fire power easy retirement for F7 and some mirages no need for J10 but if Chinese pressure is there then otherwise

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## GriffinsRule

TAI does not have the expertise to upgrade to block 70 version. It would be performed in the US, unless PAF is able to push for a local upgrade at PAC, though that seems unlikely. 
There is also little sense in upgrading really old airframes to the latest version, such as the Jordanian aircraft. If anything, upgrade just the latest block 52s and buy another squadron of new aircraft. Use the radars and other equipment to update the block 15ADFs to the same MLU standards basically as the current fleet.
That means any used aircraft could be early C/D variants or lower life (if any) block 15s. Looks like there are 201/37 A/B variants and 112/13 C/D variants in storage at the dessert, give or take. 
I think even having a fleet of 45-60 block 70s, both upgraded and new, would be very potent and could lead the existing MLU birds in cooperative engagements. Don't think we need to or can afford to have every single aircraft upgraded.
Coupled with block IIIs, we are going to be in a very good position to work on AZM.

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## Cool_Soldier

I have some hope that with new US govt, blocked F-16 and zulu Helicopters will be released .

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## GriffinsRule

Cool_Soldier said:


> I have some hope that with new US govt, blocked F-16 and zulu Helicopters will be released .


There are no blocked F-16s though.

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## Shabi1

GriffinsRule said:


> TAI does not have the expertise to upgrade to block 70 version. It would be performed in the US, unless PAF is able to push for a local upgrade at PAC, though that seems unlikely.
> There is also little sense in upgrading really old airframes to the latest version, such as the Jordanian aircraft. If anything, upgrade just the latest block 52s and buy another squadron of new aircraft. Use the radars and other equipment to update the block 15ADFs to the same MLU standards basically as the current fleet.
> That means any used aircraft could be early C/D variants or lower life (if any) block 15s. Looks like there are 201/37 A/B variants and 112/13 C/D variants in storage at the dessert, give or take.
> I think even having a fleet of 45-60 block 70s, both upgraded and new, would be very potent and could lead the existing MLU birds in cooperative engagements. Don't think we need to or can afford to have every single aircraft upgraded.
> Coupled with block IIIs, we are going to be in a very good position to work on AZM.


Block-70 are only available new, latest upgrade standard is named F-16V (Viper).
TAI is a licensed producer to Lockheed Martin, what they can do is get parts from LM in form kits and integrate on behalf of LM, same as was done with previous PAF jets. Logistically its simpler to fly the jets to Turkey rather than US. 
Besides Turkey is working on its own domestic AESA radar and upgrades for its F-16s. This would need blessing of LM in the form of certification or will need to prepare disownment from LM for performance of the product. F-5 and F-4 upgrades from non manufacturers have been done in past. No idea on how TAI intends to finally implement it.
Under Biden I suspect Turkey will still be barred from F-35 and future tech but expect remaining cooperation to restore. This sill give India some relief from CAATSA on S-400 purchase as well.

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## Reichmarshal

the mlu program was actually supposed to be undertaken in the u.s and at PAC. our techs were to train in the u.s with the u.s techs and from the expertise gained the rest of the mlu program was to be undertaken at pac.
but then our dear friend stepped in and it happened in turkey.

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## TNT

Any idea how many hours on average we fly an F16 in a year? We need to reduce hours on F16 to preserve its life.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

@Yasser76

IMO ...

Washington will normalize Indo-Pak relations and make the LoC a permanent border so India can focus on China. In return, Pakistan will get to flush India's influence in Afghanistan, and be the primary caretaker of Afghanistan moving forward.

US arms aside, I think we'll see a conversation about Pakistan building a noticeable presence in Afghanistan.

Everything from the ISI returning to Kabul to Pakistani aircraft flying overhead is going to be on the cards. Basically, whatever it takes for (1) Pakistan to feel secure, but (2) without hurting the Indians.

It's not so much about giving India hegemony, but to simply split South Asia into halves, and give one half to Pakistan (the west) and the other to India (east). That split is a border in Kashmir.

In return, the US can remove its forces out of the region yet still maintain influence in Afghanistan (via Pakistan).

This 'tweak' actually makes Pakistan's growing ties with Turkey a lot more logical now. The US can use Turkey to funnel whatever Pakistan needs (esp. US-origin technologies). So, the T129, the LM2500-equipped MILGEMs, the GE-equipped TFX, etc, does make sense under this framework.

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## mingle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Yasser76
> 
> IMO ...
> 
> Washington will normalize Indo-Pak relations and make the LoC a permanent border so India can focus on China. In return, Pakistan will get to flush India's influence in Afghanistan, and be the primary caretaker of Afghanistan moving forward.
> 
> US arms aside, I think we'll see a conversation about Pakistan building a noticeable presence in Afghanistan.
> 
> Everything from the ISI returning to Kabul to Pakistani aircraft flying overhead is going to be on the cards. Basically, whatever it takes for (1) Pakistan to feel secure, but (2) without hurting the Indians.
> 
> It's not so much about giving India hegemony, but to simply split South Asia into halves, and give one half to Pakistan (the west) and the other to India (east). That split is a border in Kashmir.
> 
> In return, the US can remove its forces out of the region yet still maintain influence in Afghanistan (via Pakistan).
> 
> This 'tweak' actually makes Pakistan's growing ties with Turkey a lot more logical now. The US can use Turkey to funnel whatever Pakistan needs (esp. US-origin technologies). So, the T129, the LM2500-equipped MILGEMs, the GE-equipped TFX, etc, does make sense under this framework.


I hope you will prove correct will love to see LM in Pakistan with Good number of F16s


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## MIRauf

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Yasser76
> 
> IMO ...
> 
> Washington will normalize Indo-Pak relations and make the LoC a permanent border so India can focus on China. In return, Pakistan will get to flush India's influence in Afghanistan, and be the primary caretaker of Afghanistan moving forward.
> 
> US arms aside, I think we'll see a conversation about Pakistan building a noticeable presence in Afghanistan.
> 
> Everything from the ISI returning to Kabul to Pakistani aircraft flying overhead is going to be on the cards. Basically, whatever it takes for (1) Pakistan to feel secure, but (2) without hurting the Indians.
> 
> It's not so much about giving India hegemony, but to simply split South Asia into halves, and give one half to Pakistan (the west) and the other to India (east). That split is a border in Kashmir.
> 
> In return, the US can remove its forces out of the region yet still maintain influence in Afghanistan (via Pakistan).
> 
> This 'tweak' actually makes Pakistan's growing ties with Turkey a lot more logical now. The US can use Turkey to funnel whatever Pakistan needs (esp. US-origin technologies). So, the T129, the LM2500-equipped MILGEMs, the GE-equipped TFX, etc, does make sense under this framework.


Pak should push for better negotiation on Kashmir. The split was only suppose to allow Srinager and mostly Hindu majority areas to go to India, rest to Pakistan. That is still possible if Pak thinks that US wants India to solely be concerned with China.

Dang ZAB, should have taken the IG's offer on the settlement.


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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Yasser76
> 
> IMO ...
> 
> Washington will normalize Indo-Pak relations and make the LoC a permanent border so India can focus on China. In return, Pakistan will get to flush India's influence in Afghanistan, and be the primary caretaker of Afghanistan moving forward.
> 
> US arms aside, I think we'll see a conversation about Pakistan building a noticeable presence in Afghanistan.
> 
> Everything from the ISI returning to Kabul to Pakistani aircraft flying overhead is going to be on the cards. Basically, whatever it takes for (1) Pakistan to feel secure, but (2) without hurting the Indians.
> 
> It's not so much about giving India hegemony, but to simply split South Asia into halves, and give one half to Pakistan (the west) and the other to India (east). That split is a border in Kashmir.
> 
> In return, the US can remove its forces out of the region yet still maintain influence in Afghanistan (via Pakistan).
> 
> This 'tweak' actually makes Pakistan's growing ties with Turkey a lot more logical now. The US can use Turkey to funnel whatever Pakistan needs (esp. US-origin technologies). So, the T129, the LM2500-equipped MILGEMs, the GE-equipped TFX, etc, does make sense under this framework.




I do agree with you, however I also feel, and the US certainly knows this, that it is losing what little leverage it has in Pakistan. For the last 10 years it seemed it cared little anyway, and what we have certainly seen in the last 10 years is the balance that Pakistan used to maintain in ties between US and China has now become a heavy economic, social, technological and military tilt toward China. (CPEC, JF-17, Nuke plants, investments etc). The US realises it let this happen for various reasons ("Do more in Afghanistan", and to keep India happy).

Afghan end game is coming and also indepenent of that there is the fact Pakistan has formidable defence forces, borders Iran, occupies a very strategic space, consumer market of 220 million people and has nukes.

Leaving Afghan aside for a second and looking at Pakistan in that prism, would you want to lose it entirely to China? Maybe not.

Now issue is this. 10-15 years ago Block 52, P-3C, Harpoons and AH-1Z were cutting edge, in many respects they still are, but this will not be the case 10 years from now.

10 years from now PN will have it's own LRMPA independent of US. Possibly T-129s with Turkish engine and AZM may well be being produced. What then? Maybe US will have economic leverage (help at World Bank etc) but China will be world's largest economy in 2028. US economy will lag behind even further by 2031.

No military leverage and no economic leverage and Pakistan basically "China's Israel" by the Persian Gulf, Nuke armed.


You have to look at where the world is going, not where it is now. Thankfully we had the foresight to free ourselves of dependence on US. In the light of this I would say PAF would be happy to get another big batch of F-16s and maybe V upgrades, but walking away is not the disaster it would of been 10-15 years ago.

Hopefully just like PN chief did in his leaving speech, we may get current ACM giving us insight into what PAF will be like 10 years from now

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## mingle

Yasser76 said:


> I do agree with you, however I also feel, and the US certainly knows this, that it is losing what little leverage it has in Pakistan. For the last 10 years it seemed it cared little anyway, and what we have certainly seen in the last 10 years is the balance that Pakistan used to maintain in ties between US and China has now become a heavy economic, social, technological and military tilt toward China. (CPEC, JF-17, Nuke plants, investments etc). The US realises it let this happen for various reasons ("Do more in Afghanistan", and to keep India happy).
> 
> Afghan end game is coming and also indepenent of that there is the fact Pakistan has formidable defence forces, borders Iran, occupies a very strategic space, consumer market of 220 million people and has nukes.
> 
> Leaving Afghan aside for a second and looking at Pakistan in that prism, would you want to lose it entirely to China? Maybe not.
> 
> Now issue is this. 10-15 years ago Block 52, P-3C, Harpoons and AH-1Z were cutting edge, in many respects they still are, but this will not be the case 10 years from now.
> 
> 10 years from now PN will have it's own LRMPA independent of US. Possibly T-129s with Turkish engine and AZM may well be being produced. What then? Maybe US will have economic leverage (help at World Bank etc) but China will be world's largest economy in 2028. US economy will lag behind even further by 2031.
> 
> No military leverage and no economic leverage and Pakistan basically "China's Israel" by the Persian Gulf, Nuke armed.
> 
> 
> You have to look at where the world is going, not where it is now. Thankfully we had the foresight to free ourselves of dependence on US. In the light of this I would say PAF would be happy to get another big batch of F-16s and maybe V upgrades, but walking away is not the disaster it would of been 10-15 years ago.
> 
> Hopefully just like PN chief did in his leaving speech, we may get current ACM giving us insight into what PAF will be like 10 years from now


Watch at woodrow Wilson today on YouTube Dr Moeed interview he talked what Bilal is asking a partnership with US not assistance both military and economic and while US according woodrow Wilson US looking a joint CT base or force with Pakistan inside Afghanistan or somewhere in region to keep these groups in check So I won't be surprise what Bilal mentioned above. Aslo US Deputy defence secretary last vist few days back is emphasis stretegic military partnership not simple military to military relations. So expect big order like vipers or more Zulus even engines for ATAK Goodtimes are ahead for PakUS relationship IA

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## GriffinsRule

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Yasser76
> 
> IMO ...
> 
> Washington will normalize Indo-Pak relations and make the LoC a permanent border so India can focus on China. In return, Pakistan will get to flush India's influence in Afghanistan, and be the primary caretaker of Afghanistan moving forward.
> 
> US arms aside, I think we'll see a conversation about Pakistan building a noticeable presence in Afghanistan.
> 
> Everything from the ISI returning to Kabul to Pakistani aircraft flying overhead is going to be on the cards. Basically, whatever it takes for (1) Pakistan to feel secure, but (2) without hurting the Indians.
> 
> It's not so much about giving India hegemony, but to simply split South Asia into halves, and give one half to Pakistan (the west) and the other to India (east). That split is a border in Kashmir.
> 
> In return, the US can remove its forces out of the region yet still maintain influence in Afghanistan (via Pakistan).
> 
> This 'tweak' actually makes Pakistan's growing ties with Turkey a lot more logical now. The US can use Turkey to funnel whatever Pakistan needs (esp. US-origin technologies). So, the T129, the LM2500-equipped MILGEMs, the GE-equipped TFX, etc, does make sense under this framework.


I sincerely hope that is not the case Bilal. First off, India has already been pushed out of Afghanistan and any remnants will be expelled without any US help sooner than later. Second, why would Pakistan in its right mind put itself in a position to be a caretaker of a broken mess of country. We cant even keep our own shit together much less try to be responsible for a crap hole of a country like Afghanistan. 
Next why would we let India off the hook so easily where they are able to concentrate on the LAC vs a second front? Also not sure if US needs a funnel via Turkey instead of supplying Pakistan directly.

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## araz

mingle said:


> Watch at woodrow Wilson today on YouTube Dr Moeed interview he talked what Bilal is asking a partnership with US not assistance both military and economic and while US according woodrow Wilson US looking a joint CT base or force with Pakistan inside Afghanistan or somewhere in region to keep these groups in check So I won't be surprise what Bilal mentioned above. Aslo US Deputy defence secretary last vist few days back is emphasis stretegic military partnership not simple military to military relations. So expect big order like vipers or more Zulus even engines for ATAK Goodtimes are ahead for PakUS relationship IA


That would be a disaster. At no cost should Pak commit its forces in Afghanistan.
A

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## The Eagle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Yasser76
> 
> IMO ...
> 
> Washington will normalize Indo-Pak relations and make the LoC a permanent border so India can focus on China. In return, Pakistan will get to flush India's influence in Afghanistan, and be the primary caretaker of Afghanistan moving forward.
> 
> US arms aside, I think we'll see a conversation about Pakistan building a noticeable presence in Afghanistan.
> 
> Everything from the ISI returning to Kabul to Pakistani aircraft flying overhead is going to be on the cards. Basically, whatever it takes for (1) Pakistan to feel secure, but (2) without hurting the Indians.
> 
> It's not so much about giving India hegemony, but to simply split South Asia into halves, and give one half to Pakistan (the west) and the other to India (east). That split is a border in Kashmir.
> 
> In return, the US can remove its forces out of the region yet still maintain influence in Afghanistan (via Pakistan).
> 
> This 'tweak' actually makes Pakistan's growing ties with Turkey a lot more logical now. The US can use Turkey to funnel whatever Pakistan needs (esp. US-origin technologies). So, the T129, the LM2500-equipped MILGEMs, the GE-equipped TFX, etc, does make sense under this framework.



I can't add anything for above scenarios though I have one different opinion in regard to Kashmir & LoC becoming a full time Border. In my opinion, Kashmir will be sorted out as an Independent having presence of UN or US Themselves. Not to forget how Israelis love that space up-north. I think Biden administration will work out a strategy plan so the Kashmiris will achieve their struggle for self determination/an Independent State. That is exactly being demanded since day first. 

In-case of turning LoC into a permanent border; I don't think Pakistanis will let it happen no matter who is the PM. It has to be seen in view of sentimental relations to Kashmir, the emotions of Pakistanis and above all, the years of struggle by Pakistanis regardless of Civil or Mil for Kashmir independence. By an independent Kashmir, this side wouldn't object neither the people.

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## mingle

araz said:


> That would be a disaster. At no cost should Pak commit its forces in Afghanistan.
> A


It's stared very early days of Trump administration when Rex tillerson was FS he asked Pak to increase footprint in Afghanistan which now we see vocal by Biden I believe CT force will be somewhere else but role of ISI jont with CIA will increase in Afghanistan if india is out as loyyed Austin said about punishment for spoilers they know who is spoiler then nothing wrong increasing footprint along US in Afghanistan because our enemies are hiding there in name of TTP and ISK when we talk about partnership as Moeed said at woodrow Wilson yesterday this fits in Pak needs US as much Pakistan needs China So my two cents Role will be like Taliban era not uniform forces stationed in Afghanistan.


The Eagle said:


> I can't add anything for above scenarios though I have one different opinion in regard to Kashmir & LoC becoming a full time Border. In my opinion, Kashmir will be sorted out as an Independent having presence of UN or US Themselves. Not to forget how Israelis love that space up-north. I think Biden administration will work out a strategy plan so the Kashmiris will achieve their struggle for self determination/an Independent State. That is exactly being demanded since day first.
> 
> In-case of turning LoC into a permanent border; I don't think Pakistanis will let it happen no matter who is the PM. It has to be seen in view of sentimental relations to Kashmir, the emotions of Pakistanis and above all, the years of struggle by Pakistanis regardless of Civil or Mil for Kashmir independence. By an independent Kashmir, this side wouldn't object neither the people.


I believe US will enforce Mush formula what him and Vajpaee agreed was acceptable by both sides


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## Danish Moazzam

All this talk about viper upgrades and new build jets. Do not that the current latest block jets are under continuous American watch 

With all planes and additional jets upgraded to v configuration it will be a nightmare to keep them with American watch and away from Chinese engineers.

So I think we might get few mlu planes upgraded to v config and few block 70.

That is all the potential. Rest we should continue to focus on thunders and Azm


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## ziaulislam

TNT said:


> Any idea how many hours on average we fly an F16 in a year? We need to reduce hours on F16 to preserve its life.


yo will soon have another MLU available for f16s..
taiwan A/Bs are going through a 12000 hours MLU


MIRauf said:


> Pak should push for better negotiation on Kashmir. The split was only suppose to allow Srinager and mostly Hindu majority areas to go to India, rest to Pakistan. That is still possible if Pak thinks that US wants India to solely be concerned with China.
> 
> Dang ZAB, should have taken the IG's offer on the settlement.


noone has the power to muscle india into deal, USA doesnt has that power
at best it can just ask things to cool down but kashmiris are angry ..they want stay quiet

the are angry at india and to some degree at pakistan(dont why) 

so this isnt happening


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## Reddawn

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Yasser76
> 
> IMO ...
> 
> Washington will normalize Indo-Pak relations and make the LoC a permanent border so India can focus on China. In return, Pakistan will get to flush India's influence in Afghanistan, and be the primary caretaker of Afghanistan moving forward.
> 
> US arms aside, I think we'll see a conversation about Pakistan building a noticeable presence in Afghanistan.
> 
> Everything from the ISI returning to Kabul to Pakistani aircraft flying overhead is going to be on the cards. Basically, whatever it takes for (1) Pakistan to feel secure, but (2) without hurting the Indians.
> 
> It's not so much about giving India hegemony, but to simply split South Asia into halves, and give one half to Pakistan (the west) and the other to India (east). That split is a border in Kashmir.
> 
> In return, the US can remove its forces out of the region yet still maintain influence in Afghanistan (via Pakistan).
> 
> This 'tweak' actually makes Pakistan's growing ties with Turkey a lot more logical now. The US can use Turkey to funnel whatever Pakistan needs (esp. US-origin technologies). So, the T129, the LM2500-equipped MILGEMs, the GE-equipped TFX, etc, does make sense under this framework.




It'll be political suicide for any PM to agree to making the LOC a permanent border. China, under Xi, is likely to exert considerable pressure against such a move. I agree that a best case scenario would be Musharraf's four point plan.

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## mingle

Reddawn said:


> It'll be political suicide for any PM to agree to making the LOC a permanent border. China, under Xi, is likely to exert considerable pressure against such a move. I agree that a best case scenario would be Musharraf's four point plan.


Formula which both vajpiye and Mush agreed


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## Irfan Baloch

araz said:


> Again we are looking at a PROJECTwhich is 8-10 years away from fruition. Unless you are looking at getting the production plant the Turks will cater to tbeir own needs first. So add another 5 years . If the truth be told if you are willing to wait 15 years cor the Turkish project why not build your own? The last I checked the 2 biggest hurdles might have been theTurkish engine which unless it is totally indegenous could be at the whims of the provider of parts. Pakistan's dire finqncial situation will not allow it to run 2 such projects so it will either be Azm or TFX. Given tbe choice and the timelines wbat would posters choose?
> A











Rolls-Royce Offers Engine for Turkish-Made Fighter Jet


Rolls-Royce is offering its EJ200 engine to power the first Turkish-made fighter jet, Turkish officials said.




www.defensenews.com




Rolls Royce might be chosen for producing the Turkish TFX engine. the Turks are not Banned as comprehensively as Pakistan is from the Western technology so they do have options from other western companies in addtion to their own program but like you mentioned its an irrelevant discussion and Turks will cater for themselves first before producing a watered down export version(only if the project goes in line with the budget and the time line).
if Pakistan is cleared by America to procure the phased out F 16s from the world air forces that are replacing them with F-35 then PAF can buy some time for the Chinese or Turkish 5th generation jets to reach the serial production stage .

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## Ghessan

mingle said:


> I believe US will enforce Mush formula what him and Vajpaee agreed was acceptable by both sides



regime in India is not what it was at the time of Musharraf, when Musharraf shake hand with Vajpayee post Kargil those people sitting in their parliament were not that ignorant, since then US-India relationship has crossed many milestones, Sept 11 is gone when the will in US was at high point.

yes i agree current regime in US is skeptical of Indian stances at several maters, India has few strong cards to play, i don't see a chance.


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## Ahmet Pasha

976 pages but khichdi is still cooking.

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## Shabi1

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> @Yasser76
> 
> IMO ...
> 
> Washington will normalize Indo-Pak relations and make the LoC a permanent border so India can focus on China. In return, Pakistan will get to flush India's influence in Afghanistan, and be the primary caretaker of Afghanistan moving forward.
> 
> US arms aside, I think we'll see a conversation about Pakistan building a noticeable presence in Afghanistan.
> 
> Everything from the ISI returning to Kabul to Pakistani aircraft flying overhead is going to be on the cards. Basically, whatever it takes for (1) Pakistan to feel secure, but (2) without hurting the Indians.
> 
> It's not so much about giving India hegemony, but to simply split South Asia into halves, and give one half to Pakistan (the west) and the other to India (east). That split is a border in Kashmir.
> 
> In return, the US can remove its forces out of the region yet still maintain influence in Afghanistan (via Pakistan).
> 
> This 'tweak' actually makes Pakistan's growing ties with Turkey a lot more logical now. The US can use Turkey to funnel whatever Pakistan needs (esp. US-origin technologies). So, the T129, the LM2500-equipped MILGEMs, the GE-equipped TFX, etc, does make sense under this framework.


LOC as permanent border would have been acceptable couple of years back but such a move now will be pure genocide on IOK side. India shot themself in the foot with their RSS antics. Indian businesses are actually very competitive and rivaling western ones, now with the EU disinfo thing being out, won't be surprised if someone brings up human rights and Kashmir related sanctions to protect western markets.

Army knows it shouldnt involve itself in someone elses war, else we had alot to gain from going to Yemen. Moeed Yousufs latest interview is clear that Pakistan will only get parties discussing and facilitate economic trade related issues. Peace in Afghanistan is upto the Afghans themself only. If we interfere again like we did in past when it fails we will again be the escape goat and Pakistan will not let that happen again.

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## ARMalik

If Pakistan ever buys these F-16s ever again from the US, it will once again signal that *Pakistan's Military Establishment has once again thrown itself at the feet of the US*. And by doing this, it will loose *ALL ITS ALLIES INCLUDING CHINA*. Lets see if this time the decisions are made for National Sovereignty or for continuation of Corruption once again.

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## RadarGudumluMuhimmat

It is irrelevant but I think the articles are mixed. According to the latest news, Rolls Royce will develop a new engine with TRMotor, provided that the RR-Kale partnership is excessive. It is certain that the first blocks of TFX will be equivalent to F15EX because TEI CEO said yesterday that production of F110 will be start again.
Though Pakistan uses PW on its F 16's, it might make more sense for AZM.

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## Shabi1

ARMalik said:


> If Pakistan ever buys these F-16s ever again from the US, it will once again signal that *Pakistan's Military Establishment has once again thrown itself at the feet of the US*. And by doing this, it will loose *ALL ITS ALLIES INCLUDING CHINA*. Lets see if this time the decisions are made for National Sovereignty or for continuation of Corruption once again.


Chances are eventually we will follow what we did with Mirages and there is nothing wrong with that.

Buy used airframes if available to cover attrition or for parts and upgrade the ones we have. If relations improve we can perhaps even further our maintenance infrastructure for keeping them flying as long as we can.

What you are saying happens when you buy with severe strings attached, F-16s are not F-35s so that wont happen.

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## GriffinsRule

We cant replicate what we did with the Mirages to the F-16s as we cant rebuild the Falcons at Kamra.

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## The Eagle

By the way, USAF is about to place an order for new Vipers. LM will remain busy, apparently.

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## Shabi1

GriffinsRule said:


> We cant replicate what we did with the Mirages to the F-16s as we cant rebuild the Falcons at Kamra.


There was a time Pakistan couldn't rebuild Mirages too. As I said if relations prohibit F-16 maintenance infrastructure could be enhanced too. Till then it would be outsourced job.
In my own opinion Pakistan will like to continue to operate F-16s even after most operators retire it.

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## Yasser76

If, as many are now implying, USAF orders F-16V it gives PAF greater imperative to go down this route, as widespread support for F-16 will pretty much be assured for next 30 years.

Greece, Taiwan, Bahrain, Bulgaria, South Korea, Indonesia, Morrocco and Singapore all going for the V and the USAF.

If we only ever make one more purchase from US it should be V uprgades, and 40 more Vipers.

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## Windjammer

While the F-16s in PAF will play the lead role for interception and fighter sweep missions, it's also designed for pinpoint strikes on enemy's ground targets.

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## mingle

Ghessan said:


> regime in India is not what it was at the time of Musharraf, when Musharraf shake hand with Vajpayee post Kargil those people sitting in their parliament were not that ignorant, since then US-India relationship has crossed many milestones, Sept 11 is gone when the will in US was at high point.
> 
> yes i agree current regime in US is skeptical of Indian stances at several maters, India has few strong cards to play, i don't see a chance.





Yasser76 said:


> If, as many are now implying, USAF orders F-16V it gives PAF greater imperative to go down this route, as widespread support for F-16 will pretty much be assured for next 30 years.
> 
> Greece, Taiwan, Bahrain, Bulgaria, South Korea, Indonesia, Morrocco and Singapore all going for the V and the USAF.
> 
> If we only ever make one more purchase from US it should be V uprgades, and 40 more Vipers.


I will love 36 new 34 used with V upgrades 150-160 a great fleet

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## FuturePAF

Shabi1 said:


> Chances are eventually we will follow what we did with Mirages and there is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> Buy used airframes if available to cover attrition or for parts and upgrade the ones we have. If relations improve we can perhaps even further our maintenance infrastructure for keeping them flying as long as we can.
> 
> What you are saying happens when you buy with severe strings attached, F-16s are not F-35s so that wont happen.



Also, more importantly to China will be Pakistan developing deeper economic relations with the US, so Pakistan can support its own economic development and have funds to develop further projects as part of CPEC; railways, motorways, power plants, dams, etc.

China isn’t against Pakistan having a robust relation with the US, they just don’t want it to be at the expense of China. Pakistan has signaled, through Moeed Yusuf’s interview that it won’t be in anyone’s camp, especially not against the other power.


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## ziaulislam

Shabi1 said:


> LOC as permanent border would have been acceptable couple of years back but such a move now will be pure genocide on IOK side. India shot themself in the foot with their RSS antics. Indian businesses are actually very competitive and rivaling western ones, now with the EU disinfo thing being out, won't be surprised if someone brings up human rights and Kashmir related sanctions to protect western markets.
> 
> Army knows it shouldnt involve itself in someone elses war, else we had alot to gain from going to Yemen. Moeed Yousufs latest interview is clear that Pakistan will only get parties discussing and facilitate economic trade related issues. Peace in Afghanistan is upto the Afghans themself only. If we interfere again like we did in past when it fails we will again be the escape goat and Pakistan will not let that happen again.


Whether u like it or not u will have to interfere

U cant sit by fire and do nothing ..its instinctive..

For example there starts a huge civil war and 20 m people sit at torkhan boarder what r u going to do???


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## raja786

ziaulislam said:


> Whether u like it or not u will have to interfere
> 
> U cant sit by fire and do nothing ..its instinctive..
> 
> For example there starts a huge civil war and 20 m people sit at torkhan boarder what r u going to do???


They can kill each other not wellcome in Pakistan, never again.

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## Shabi1

ziaulislam said:


> Whether u like it or not u will have to interfere
> 
> U cant sit by fire and do nothing ..its instinctive..
> 
> For example there starts a huge civil war and 20 m people sit at torkhan boarder what r u going to do???


That is a *IF* nothing works, then obviously plans would need to be modified but first we need to let them sort out themselves and hope they can manage. If we dont try letting Afghans work something out themselves first and impose something on them it would give the elements that try to destabilize Pakistan legitimization. We've tried it in past via Taliban and it back fired as eventually they grow out of control and spilled over to our side, its like playing with fire.

The ones who want perpetual war in Afghanistan are ones benefiting from it, that is people getting aid for boosting defenses or ones engaged in drug trade. Once US reduces presence and aid starts drying up they would need to realize it would be far more profitable if there is stability and Afghanistan could provide safe passage to trade and access to central asian states. Also the fact that we have a sincere gov in Pakistan that could curb smuggling would mean it would be profitable for Afghan manufacturers and growers to produce locally rather than smuggle from Pakistan.

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## Raider 21

Commissioned painting depicting Flt Lt Shahid Sikandar Khan, taxiing an F-16A of PAF No 14 Sqn for a CAP mission - April 1987.

11 X 16 inches (unframed) - Watercolors





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## Trailer23

Kinda sad that No. 14 Squadron had gone from F-16's to F-7's. Talk about: how the mighty have fallen

Good to know that they've bounced back with the JFT's now.

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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> Kinda sad that No. 14 Squadron had gone from F-16's to F-7's. Talk about: how the mighty have fallen
> 
> Good to know that they've bounced back with the JFT's now.


It was due to the decrease in number of available Vipers because of the numerous crashes.

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## Windjammer

Raider 21 said:


> It was due to the decrease in number of available Vipers because of the numerous crashes.


Numerous crashes ??.....or due to the anticipated follow up order not materialising.

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## Yasser76

Raider 21 said:


> It was due to the decrease in number of available Vipers because of the numerous crashes.



It was due to non delivery of extra batch, Cannot operate 3 squadrons with just 40 planes (unless you are LCA where you can operate a squadron with 3 planes)

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> Numerous crashes ??.....or due to the anticipated follow up order not materialising.


And the crashes played a huge role into it. They knew the embargo was going to happen. Plus the main maintenance depot at the time was only in Sargodha.

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## airomerix

^


Raider 21 said:


> And the crashes played a huge role into it. They knew the embargo was going to happen. Plus the main maintenance depot at the time was only in Sargodha.



That's the main reason. 14 sqn had a poor safety record with F-16s,

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## SQ8

Raider 21 said:


> And the *crashes* played a huge role into it. They knew the embargo was going to happen. Plus the main maintenance depot at the time was only in Sargodha.


One would imagine some heads would have rolled knowing the limitations ?

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## Raider 21

airomerix said:


> ^
> 
> 
> That's the main reason. 14 sqn had a poor safety record with F-16s,


3 crashes as far as I know. And 2 of them happened due to an engine design defect. Entire Viper fleet was grounded for almost a year.

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## Nomad40

Raider 21 said:


> 3 crashes as far as I know. And 2 of them happened due to an engine design defect. Entire Viper fleet was grounded for almost a year.


were the 2 vipers then reimbursed?

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## GriffinsRule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> were the 2 vipers then reimbursed?


That's not how it works. PAF maintenance is responsible for the engines after the sale.


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## Nomad40

GriffinsRule said:


> That's not how it works. PAF maintenance is responsible for the engines after the sale.


are you inferring that an engine design defect was the responsibility of the PAF engineers?


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## GriffinsRule

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> are you inferring that an engine design defect was the responsibility of the PAF engineers?


No one said the engine defect caused the failure, but when you use non-OEM parts in the engine, its on you and not the manufacturer. Other engine failures like flameouts can happen for many other reasons as well.


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## Raider 21

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> were the 2 vipers then reimbursed?


Negative, the aircraft were flown and being operated by PAF with no terms of conditions regarding warranty or any other clauses. The only time the aircraft would have been possible to be replaced or reimbursed was during the 1st leg delivery flights to Saudi Arabia where the aircraft were then turned over to the receiving PAF pilots.

Both crashes happened within a span of few months. Cause was a turbine failure for both aircraft. All F-16s were grounded for almost a year.

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## Nomad40

GriffinsRule said:


> No one said the engine defect caused the failure, but when you use non-OEM parts in the engine, its on you and not the manufacturer. Other engine failures like flameouts can happen for many other reasons as well.


I am very well aware of what type of failures can occur, the reasons behind it and how to try to get out of it. 

No where is it stated about using Non OEM parts, (not denying the use of it as there has been an accident regards to it).

The crashes that I am talking about are those which were caused by a design flaw from the manufacturer----That is if I am interpreting it correctly. 

In simple terms general dynamics product has a fault so it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to issue a bulletin on how to remedy or recall. 

If an F-16 is lost due to a manufacturing defect then it is a possibility that the manufacturer compensates in one way or another----hence I did not use the term Replace ( by a similar example). 

Cheerios.


Raider 21 said:


> Negative, the aircraft were flown and being operated by PAF with no terms of conditions regarding warranty or any other clauses. The only time the aircraft would have been possible to be replaced or reimbursed was during the 1st leg delivery flights to Saudi Arabia where the aircraft were then turned over to the receiving PAF pilots.
> 
> Both crashes happened within a span of few months. Cause was a turbine failure for both aircraft. All F-16s were grounded for almost a year.


makes sense now....stupid question but why were the aircraft not covered for such an incident.

Pakistan navy has had their aircraft replaced if I am not mistaken.


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## Thorough Pro

It has taken a very long time and Pakistan has paid a heavy price to get out of the yolk of US influence. It will be a stupid mistake to go back to the same vulnerable position by investing in more F-16. We should buy as many spares as we possibly can to keep using the existing fleet for as long as viable.

Due to the US sanctions we went the Thunder route, but we designed a jet to replace tier two fighters, nothing wrong with that as that was a bigger chunk of ageing assets and in reality PAF did an excellent job in the shape of Thunder which is much more capable than the retiring assets. 

Instead of starting the Azm project for 5th Gen fighter, PAF should have first started work on a medium weight category fighter to replace F-16's in the next 10 years, and gained more experience by increasing the share of work to 70 to 80 percent in full production. In the mean time the strike fighter requirement could have been met by inducting J-10, J-15, J-30, or a combination of these.

Only after producing the second jet, undertaking a 5+ or 6th gen project would have yielded better results and also would have made us more independent and self reliant in 2nd tier (f-16) class category in the 5th gen fighter age.

Since the 5th gen fighter will only form the spear head of the strike force, and main bulk would comprise of a medium weight fighter , I think it is still not too late to start work on a medium weight class fighter after completion of block 3. That new medium weight fighter does not have to be a brand new design, we can take J-10 as the starting point and modify/add what would be required in the next 10 years. A home grown jet would be cheaper, sanction proof, and will keep the momentum going in the nascent Pakistani aviation industry.


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## Raider 21

Thorough Pro said:


> It has taken a very long time and Pakistan has paid a heavy price to get out of the yolk of US influence. It will be a stupid mistake to go back to the same vulnerable position by investing in more F-16. We should buy as many spares as we possibly can to keep using the existing fleet for as long as viable.
> 
> Due to the US sanctions we went the Thunder route, but we designed a jet to replace tier two fighters, nothing wrong with that as that was a bigger chunk of ageing assets and in reality PAF did an excellent job in the shape of Thunder which is much more capable than the retiring assets.
> 
> Instead of starting the Azm project for 5th Gen fighter, PAF should have first started work on a medium weight category fighter to replace F-16's in the next 10 years, and gained more experience by increasing the share of work to 70 to 80 percent in full production. In the mean time the strike fighter requirement could have been met by inducting J-10, J-15, J-30, or a combination of these.
> 
> Only after producing the second jet, undertaking a 5+ or 6th gen project would have yielded better results and also would have made us more independent and self reliant in 2nd tier (f-16) class category in the 5th gen fighter age.
> 
> Since the 5th gen fighter will only form the spear head of the strike force, and main bulk would comprise of a medium weight fighter , I think it is still not too late to start work on a medium weight class fighter after completion of block 3. That new medium weight fighter does not have to be a brand new design, we can take J-10 as the starting point and modify/add what would be required in the next 10 years. A home grown jet would be cheaper, sanction proof, and will keep the momentum going in the nascent Pakistani aviation industry.


Anyone going through an embargo route, if they are serious enough they'd start their own fighter programs to benefit largely to their own desires and choices. This first was observed with Israel and then Pakistan followed suit...

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## SQ8

Raider 21 said:


> 3 crashes as far as I know. And 2 of them happened due to an engine design defect. Entire Viper fleet was grounded for almost a year.


Well - one is your father in 85720
85721 is CFIT
85725 was PAF maintenance technician putting in a Mirage part as “Juggar”

Not sure which engine design defect you are referring to.

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## Raider 21

SQ8 said:


> Well - one is your father in 85720
> 85721 is CFIT
> 85725 was PAF maintenance technician putting in a Mirage part as “Juggar”
> 
> Not sure which engine design defect you are referring to.


723 and 725 had crashed. Both were investigated to be turbine failures.


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## SQ8

Raider 21 said:


> 723 and 725 had crashed. Both were investigated to be turbine failures.


725 was PAF fault leading to Turbine failure, not a mfg defect - I know the pilot intimately. 
723 might be turbine failure.

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## Bratva

airomerix said:


> ^
> 
> 
> That's the main reason. 14 sqn had a poor safety record with F-16s,



And recent JF-17 crash 17-241 also belonged to 14 sqn. Allah khair kare bas


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## Raider 21

SQ8 said:


> Well - one is your father in 85720
> 85721 is CFIT
> 85725 was PAF maintenance technician putting in a Mirage part as “Juggar”
> 
> Not sure which engine design defect you are referring to.


85721 was a crash that happened during CCS. The pilot had pulled 16G instantaneously and had G-LOCed. Unfortunately he was in a dive as last seen in a HUD tape of another Viper, which caught the impact to the ground.

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## Windjammer

Bratva said:


> And recent JF-17 crash 17-241 also belonged to 14 sqn. Allah khair kare bas



First crash since the squadron converted to the type four years earlier. Allah ka bahut karam hey.....

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## Windjammer



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## GriffinsRule

SQ8 said:


> 725 was PAF fault leading to Turbine failure, not a mfg defect - I know the pilot intimately.
> 723 might be turbine failure.


723 crashed while enroute to land after DACT at night. Turbines don't fail suddenly on their own. Both crashes in 1991 from the same squadron post Pressler sanctions could very well be due to similar reasons, ie PAF trying to either manufacture parts on their own that led to failure or using parts beyond their life. This is my speculation but in the end they had to bite the bullet and spend $ on buying parts from the private market.

PAF learns it's lessons the hard way. We lost the famous F-16 due to a boar on the runway, but how many here know we lost a Mirage in the exact same fashion years before that?

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## Raider 21

GriffinsRule said:


> *723 crashed while enroute to land after DACT at night.* Turbines don't fail suddenly on their own. Both crashes in 1991 from the same squadron post Pressler sanctions could very well be due to similar reasons, ie PAF trying to either manufacture parts on their own that led to failure or using parts beyond their life. This is my speculation but in the end they had to bite the bullet and spend $ on buying parts from the private market.
> 
> *PAF learns it's lessons the hard way.* We lost the famous F-16 due to a boar on the runway, but how many here know we lost a Mirage in the exact same fashion years before that?


I heard it was on takeoff. My father took my grandparents and I to see the crash site a few days later. Unfortunately some people were killed on the ground. 

As long as they learned from it.

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## CombatSurgeon

GriffinsRule said:


> 723 crashed while enroute to land after DACT at night. Turbines don't fail suddenly on their own. Both crashes in 1991 from the same squadron post Pressler sanctions could very well be due to similar reasons, ie PAF trying to either manufacture parts on their own that led to failure or using parts beyond their life. This is my speculation but in the end they had to bite the bullet and spend $ on buying parts from the private market.
> 
> PAF learns it's lessons the hard way. We lost the famous F-16 due to a boar on the runway, but how many here know we lost a Mirage in the exact same fashion years before that?


These boars were found at other bases as well. While deployed at Murid in 2002, some of us hunted them with shotguns borrowed from the bird-bashers. Quite a fun thing during the night! The DSG guys were flabbergasted. Now, I don't know if the problem still persists at Sargodha and other places.

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## Nomad40

Raider 21 said:


> 85721 was a crash that happened during CCS. The pilot had pulled 16G instantaneously and had G-LOCed. Unfortunately he was in a dive as last seen in a HUD tape of another Viper, which caught the impact to the ground.


16G ? how ?..... the only way I can think of pulling 16 g in the f-16 if it breaks up in mid air. 

Shouldn't FCS limit that unless of course it has been overridden manually by the pilot.


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## SQ8

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> 16G ? how ?..... the only way I can think of pulling 16 g in the f-16 if it breaks up in mid air.
> 
> Shouldn't FCS limit that unless of course it has been overridden manually by the pilot.


The older analog FCS could be tricked to going 10G but this is fairly extreme. It is also possible that 16G was recorded in error or through damage.

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## ziaulislam

CombatSurgeon said:


> These boars were found at other bases as well. While deployed at Murid in 2002, some of us hunted them with shotguns borrowed from the bird-bashers. Quite a fun thing during the night! The DSG guys were flabbergasted. Now, I don't know if the problem still persists at Sargodha and other places.


Amazing if its true
Air bases have boars like WTF

Honestly we simply use a cheap electric wire and problem solved..occationally a boar will be caught in it ..most of the timw they will sense it..

May be we should send poor farmers from my village to train PAF security at bases how to put a electrical fence to guard a 100m dollar asset/plan from boars ..they will probably train them for free

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## FuturePAF

CombatSurgeon said:


> These boars were found at other bases as well. While deployed at Murid in 2002, some of us hunted them with shotguns borrowed from the bird-bashers. Quite a fun thing during the night! The DSG guys were flabbergasted. Now, I don't know if the problem still persists at Sargodha and other places.



I always wondered how the boar got near the runway. Weren’t the runways fenced off?


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## Bossman

FuturePAF said:


> I always wondered how the boar got near the runway. Weren’t the runways fenced off?


Boars were living on the base and in any case fencing is not much help as they can dig under the fence.

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## Engima Chaudhry

CombatSurgeon said:


> These boars were found at other bases as well. While deployed at Murid in 2002, some of us hunted them with shotguns borrowed from the bird-bashers. Quite a fun thing during the night! The DSG guys were flabbergasted. Now, I don't know if the problem still persists at Sargodha and other places.


I still hunt them there. 
Doing a national service, I suppose.😇

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## mingle

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> 16G ? how ?..... the only way I can think of pulling 16 g in the f-16 if it breaks up in mid air.
> 
> Shouldn't FCS limit that unless of course it has been overridden manually by the pilot.


I remember that crash at sargodha pilot was Zafar Ahmed

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## Raider 21

mingle said:


> I remember that crash at sargodha pilot was Zafar Ahmed


That happened in 1989. The 1994 one happened during CCS. Pilot was Nasir Kamran.

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## GriffinsRule

Raider 21 said:


> That happened in 1989. The 1994 one happened during CCS. Pilot was Nasir Kamran.



Was it Zafar Ahsan or Ahmed?

Do you also know the two pilots that ejected from the F-16B that crashed after a bird hit in 1993?


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## Reichmarshal

Their was a small dump on the green belt on the side of my house n one night I saw a small family of wild boars feeding their, so I started dumping their for a few week or so until it grew in a herd. Than i installed flood lights on my terrace and invited a few friends over the next night.
And shot the crap outta them. No more wild boars after that.

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## haroonn

GriffinsRule said:


> Was it Zafar Ahsan or Ahmed?
> 
> Do you also know the two pilots that ejected from the F-16B that crashed after a bird hit in 1993?


Pretty sure his name was Zafar Ahsan. His younger brother was my senior in UET, Lahore.
Also one of the pilots who ejected from F-16B was Faaiz Amir who later retired as AVM.

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## GriffinsRule

haroonn said:


> Pretty sure his name was Zafar Ahsan. His younger brother was my senior in UET, Lahore.
> Also one of the pilots who ejected from F-16B was Faaiz Amir who later retired as AVM.


Thanks!


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## Raider 21

GriffinsRule said:


> Was it Zafar Ahsan or Ahmed?
> 
> Do you also know the two pilots that ejected from the F-16B that crashed after a bird hit in 1993?


Zafar Ahsan. He was my father's coursemate. 

1993 were 2 squadron leaders....one of them I think was Nawab Razi. 

1986 were 2 pilots, one of them was Squadron Leader Faaiz Amir.

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## Raider 21

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> 16G ? how ?..... the only way I can think of pulling 16 g in the f-16 if it breaks up in mid air.
> 
> Shouldn't FCS limit that unless of course it has been overridden manually by the pilot.


Instantaneous is very possible


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## MastanKhan

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> 16G ? how ?..... the only way I can think of pulling 16 g in the f-16 if it breaks up in mid air.
> 
> Shouldn't FCS limit that unless of course it has been overridden manually by the pilot.



Hi,

F16's have been known to pull massive amount of G's without breaking up.

GCAS is a must for all fighter aircraft---.

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## Nomad40

Raider 21 said:


> Instantaneous is very possible


what was the attitude of the aircraft, was it a dive or a turn I am Assuming a turn.


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> F16's have been known to pull massive amount of G's without breaking up.
> 
> GCAS is a must for all fighter aircraft---.


Yes you are right on both comments.

Haven't seen you post in a while assuming keeping all them Cali aunties busy.


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## FuturePAF

Bossman said:


> Boars were living on the base and in any case fencing is not much help as they can dig under the fence.



In that case, the only option, once they make it near or through the fence is hunting rifles.


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## ghazi52

Red flag 16-4 saw the participation of Advance F-16 variants at the same exercise for the first time. Desert Falcon, Indus Viper & Sufa

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## Nomad40

ghazi52 said:


> Red flag 16-4 saw the participation of Advance F-16 variants at the same exercise for the first time. Desert Falcon, Indus Viper & Sufa
> 
> 
> View attachment 711386


The Middle F-16 "10801" is the F-16 block52 D.......Indus viper was a name of an Exercise held back in 2008 and 2013 with the TuAF


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## Raider 21

ghazi52 said:


> Red flag 16-4 saw the participation of Advance F-16 variants at the same exercise for the first time. Desert Falcon, Indus Viper & Sufa
> 
> 
> View attachment 711386


This was a very interesting time


Mirage Battle Commander said:


> *what was the attitude of the aircraft, was it a dive or a turn I am Assuming a turn.*
> 
> Yes you are right on both comments.
> 
> *Haven't seen you post in a while assuming keeping all them Cali aunties busy.*


I am unaware of the events that led up to the G-LOC other than the number of Gs that caused it, but both CCS Vipers were low level. The Viper behind him was calling Fox 2, completely ignored the fact that his target may be incapacitated somehow, his HUD tape caught the Viper in a dive and impacting the ground. 

Easy with the banter. There is a fine line with making fun and insulting. I deem this to be the latter, do not stoop down to that level please next time.

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## Caprxl

Raider 21 said:


> This was a very interesting time



Always had this comment from many Seniors & the knowledgeable ones, but never more than this 

Would you be kind & let us know a bit more  _If _it's easy for you.


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## MastanKhan

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> what was the attitude of the aircraft, was it a dive or a turn I am Assuming a turn.
> 
> Yes you are right on both comments.
> 
> Haven't seen you post in a while assuming keeping all them Cali aunties busy.



Hi,

My lovers have banned me from most threads---plus I am extremely busy at work.

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## Nomad40

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> My lovers have banned me from most threads---plus I am extremely busy at work.


their loss .... keep hustling


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## Raider 21

Caprxl said:


> Always had this comment from many Seniors & the knowledgeable ones, but never more than this
> 
> Would you be kind & let us know a bit more  _If _it's easy for you.


Well there is some that cannot be said. However, the PAF Block 52+ contingent were more proficient comparatively to the first PAF Red Flag attendees. 

And for the Falcons, the OC managed to secure a very quick kill against a USAF Aggressor, flown by an ex-PAF pilot. Some moves stay in muscle memory.

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## The Raven

ghazi52 said:


> Red flag 16-4 saw the participation of Advance F-16 variants at the same exercise for the first time. Desert Falcon, Indus Viper & Sufa
> 
> 
> View attachment 711386



The fairings highlight an interesting mix of avionics. The Israelis are very keen on ECM and defensive suites, and the Sufa appears to be the only one with a secure satellite link.


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## Yasser76

The sat link would be for long range strike, like really long range I imagine.


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## untitled

Raider 21 said:


> flown by an ex-PAF pilot.


Same JF17 guy?



Yasser76 said:


> The sat link would be for long range strike, like really long range I imagine.


Are you talking about those bulges on the nose? Singapore F16s have them too


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## The Raven

untitled said:


> Are you talking about those bulges on the nose? Singapore F16s have them too



No, the circular antenna on the spine, close to the base of the fin.


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## untitled

The Raven said:


> No, the circular antenna on the spine, close to the base of the fin.


Isn't that a standard on all block 52 Ds?


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## The Raven

untitled said:


> Isn't that a standard on all block 52 Ds?



I don't think that's the SATCOM antenna. In any case, the Sufas have an additional fairing on the spine.


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## Raider 21

untitled said:


> Same JF17 guy?


JF-17 test pilot and former PAF Viper driver. He was flying a USAF Aggressor Viper during that Red Flag.

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## arjunk

Raider 21 said:


> JF-17 test pilot and former PAF Viper driver. He was flying a USAF Aggressor Viper during that Red Flag.


Sounds like a dream job...

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## Nomad40

Raider 21 said:


> Well there is some that cannot be said. However, the PAF Block 52+ contingent were more proficient comparatively to the first PAF Red Flag attendees.
> 
> And for the Falcons, the OC managed to secure a very quick kill against a USAF Aggressor, flown by an ex-PAF pilot. Some moves stay in muscle memory.


Ah the good old ex-PAF I wonder how they make the transitions.....any how lets say he got what he deserved.


arjunk said:


> Sounds like a dream job...


Not only does it sound like it but it is.....besides all the paper work a boat load of paper work.


----------



## GriffinsRule

Raider 21 said:


> JF-17 test pilot and former PAF Viper driver. He was flying a USAF Aggressor Viper during that Red Flag.



The first two PAF tests pilots were S/L Muhammad Ehsan-ul-Haq (Air Cdre) and S/L Rashid Habib (Air Cdre later) that flew the JF-17 for the first time in China in 2004.

It must be one of the latter ones you mention. Flying as an aggressor pilot got to be one of the best gigs

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## Raider 21

GriffinsRule said:


> The first two PAF tests pilots were S/L Muhammad Ehsan-ul-Haq (Air Cdre) and S/L Rashid Habib (Air Cdre later) that flew the JF-17 for the first time in China in 2004.
> 
> It must be one of the latter ones you mention. Flying as an aggressor pilot got to be one of the best gigs


No he has a Christian name. He was also a JF-17 display pilot.

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## mingle

Raider 21 said:


> No he has a Christian name. He was also a JF-17 display pilot.


Ronald

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## Yasser76

Can we get back to F-16s?


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## Thorough Pro

Pakistani Falcon has longer spine extends all the way to the end of exhaust nozzle, others are smaller




ghazi52 said:


> Red flag 16-4 saw the participation of Advance F-16 variants at the same exercise for the first time. Desert Falcon, Indus Viper & Sufa
> 
> 
> View attachment 711386


----------



## PanzerKiel

mingle said:


> Ronald

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## GriffinsRule

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 711841


Nice to see minorities making their name in the PAF


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## Yasser76

GriffinsRule said:


> Nice to see minorities making their name in the PAF



They made PAF from the very start

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## Raja Porus

Boeing has got the approval of US to offer F15-EX to India. Clear disruption of balance of power in South Asia. Double standards when it comes to us wanting more f16s or even upgrades

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## denel

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Boeing has got the approval of US to offer F15-EX to India. Clear disruption of balance of power in South Asia. Double standards when it comes to us wanting more f16s or even upgrades


It is just approval but I dont believe anything more will materialise; India has firmly focused on rafael. 

Dont read too much into tea leaves for now; except lobby hard for Pak's self position and posture.

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## ziaulislam

With J10 coming PAF has called the day on f16s

I doubt any new will procured or even used one(doubt usa will let us and doubt it benfits post j10/block 3 aesa and lack of future updates)

My guess PAF will keep them till 2035-2040 and will get them replaced by azm.

With current environment congress wont be able to pass any aid packages either

We should simply lobby for excetive actions for pakistan benefits and get USA out of afghan and lobby for peace in afghanistan

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## Raja Porus

ziaulislam said:


> akistan benefits and get USA out of afghan and lobby for peace in afghanistan


Yes, but at least AH1zs should be pursued


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## nomi007

I hope the USA will review Afghan policy, for that they need Pak help.
So chances of AH-1z deliveries are 100% and also chances of upgradation package for F-16s fleet.

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## mingle

denel said:


> It is just approval but I dont believe anything more will materialise; India has firmly focused on rafael.
> 
> Dont read too much into tea leaves for now; except lobby hard for Pak's self position and posture.


With Rafale induction no room for F15EX IAF will continue LCA and Rafale for near future


Desert Fox 1 said:


> Boeing has got the approval of US to offer F15-EX to India. Clear disruption of balance of power in South Asia. Double standards when it comes to us wanting more f16s or even upgrades


F16 F15 F18 all approved for india but it's india who not interested at all

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## Kingslayerr

mingle said:


> With Rafale induction no room for F15EX IAF will continue LCA and Rafale for near future
> 
> F16 F15 F18 all approved for india but it's india who not interested at all


F18 still has more chance than F-15 or f-16 will ever have. Just my 2 cents.


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## ziaulislam

Kingslayerr said:


> F18 still has more chance than F-15 or f-16 will ever have. Just my 2 cents.


YES, navy migth take it
but india has cash crunch

so my guess even navy will take rafale M

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> YES, navy migth take it
> but india has cash crunch
> 
> so my guess even navy will take rafale M


Also theior Mig29 has many yrs life so no rush for F18 procurement along cash crunch as you said Rafale M make more sense when airforce is running same platform easy maintenance and training


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## nana41

ejaz007 said:


> *US Senate urged to help upgrade Pakistans F-16s*
> By Our Correspondent
> 
> WASHINGTON, Oct 14: The US administration on Tuesday held a special briefing to persuade Senate to help finance mid-life upgrading of Pakistans ageing fleet of F-16 aircraft.
> 
> US Assistant Secretary of State Richard Boucher, who looks after South Asian affairs at the State Department, said that upgrading the F-16s would increase Pakistans effectiveness in the war against terror.
> 
> Pakistan has a total of 34 F-16s purchased mostly in the 1980s.
> 
> The US government has already accepted Pakistans request to upgrade the aircraft, equipping them with modern technology and weapon systems to make them compatible with newer versions of the F-16s. The mid-life upgrading will cost a total of $891 million. Pakistan agreed to pay $417 million and asked the United States to provide $474 million.
> 
> In July this year, the US State Department notified the committee that it had accepted Pakistans request to make available $226 million from the foreign military finance programme for upgrading the F-16s.
> 
> Initially, Pakistan had agreed to bear most of the cost but under the new arrangement the United States will provide almost half of the money needed. The State Department said the move was aimed at helping a strong ally faced with a difficult financial situation.
> 
> Initially, Pakistan had also planned to buy 36 aircraft at a cost of $5.1 billion but after the 2005 earthquake, it reduced its order to 18 aircraft.
> 
> The United States is already providing $224 million but needs Congresss permission for the remaining $250 million.
> 
> Pakistan received additional 14 F-16 A and B models under an arrangement that allowed US allies to receive excessive defence articles. The US has designated Pakistan a major non-Nato ally, a category that allows the allied nation to receive excessive defence equipment.
> 
> The White House has rejected criticism that Pakistan could only use the F-16s against its nuclear neighbour India and not against the terrorists.
> 
> The F-16s that they have are used in counter-terrorism operations. We made them available to the Pakistanis and they need to be maintained, White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said.
> 
> Administration officials have told the Senate that upgrading Pakistans ageing fleet of F-16 aircraft will dramatically reduce collateral damage and civilian casualties in Fata.
> 
> US Senate urged to help upgrade Pakistans F-16s -DAWN - Top Stories; October 15, 2008


Why reprint 12 years old news?


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## ghazi52

Sincerity of purpose leads to success, PAF is always ready to thwart any misadventure by the enemy. 
Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan along with combat air and ground crew pose in front of the most potent symbol of Air Power, The F-16C Block 52

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## PanzerKiel

ghazi52 said:


> Sincerity of purpose leads to success, PAF is always ready to thwart any misadventure by the enemy.
> Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan along with combat air and ground crew pose in front of the most potent symbol of Air Power, The F-16C Block 52
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 712074


Love the volleyball net on the left, rear...

Meanwhile...

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## Metal 0-1

Sunny4pak said:


> View attachment 712103


Source would be nice.


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## Sunny4pak

Metal 0-1 said:


> Source would be nice.











Contracts for January 29, 2021


Today's Defense Department contracts valued at $7.5 million or more are now live on Defense.gov.



www.defense.gov





Sir Scroll down & check second notification in airforce section. Though isn't big deal still something is coming out.

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## untitled

Sunny4pak said:


> Contracts for January 29, 2021
> 
> 
> Today's Defense Department contracts valued at $7.5 million or more are now live on Defense.gov.
> 
> 
> 
> www.defense.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sir Scroll down & check second notification in airforce section. Though isn't big deal still something is coming out.


The total contract is for $64 million something, for all the countries listed. This is probably routine support

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## ziaulislam

nomi007 said:


> I hope the USA will review Afghan policy, for that they need Pak help.
> So chances of AH-1z deliveries are 100% and also chances of upgradation package for F-16s fleet.


except trump proves stick alone will work
and 
USA has several other ways to pressurize pakistan like FATF and IMF(thanks to PMLN and our educated tola we are under IMF now)

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## ghazi52

High Speed Beauty...!









Syed Zohaib Zaidi Photography

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## The Eagle

Sunny4pak said:


> Contracts for January 29, 2021
> 
> 
> Today's Defense Department contracts valued at $7.5 million or more are now live on Defense.gov.
> 
> 
> 
> www.defense.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sir Scroll down & check second notification in airforce section. Though isn't big deal still something is coming out.



Official or credible source is always appreciated as compare to a random SM account. I hope you will understand.

Regards,

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## Sunny4pak

untitled said:


> The total contract is for $64 million something, for all the countries listed. This is probably routine support





The Eagle said:


> Official or credible source is always appreciated as compare to a random SM account. I hope you will understand.
> 
> Regards,



Above link isn't authentic or official source dear?


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## The Eagle

Sunny4pak said:


> Above link isn't authentic or official source dear?



In view of your question mark in the end of the post, I was referring to the one that I deleted earlier. Try to understand.

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## Raja Porus

We have almost 500 AMRAAMS right? So if we have almost 70 f16s( keeping it simple for easier calculations) so it means for every f16 we have only 7 AMRAAMS and for every squadron we have almost 84 AMRAAMS ( if there are 12 f16s in a sqn) . Won't they get depleted quickly during war ( talking strictly of BVR engagements with regards to f16s and ignoring jft)? If this has been discussed earlier then please guide me to that thread
Pardon my ignorance please if I have made any mistake.


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## Blueskiez 2001

Desert Fox 1 said:


> We have almost 500 AMRAAMS right? So if we have almost 70 f16s( keeping it simple for easier calculations) so it means for every f16 we have only 7 AMRAAMS and for every squadron we have almost 84 AMRAAMS ( if there are 12 f16s in a sqn) . Won't they get depleted quickly during war ( talking strictly of BVR engagements with regards to f16s and ignoring jft)? If this has been discussed earlier then please guide me to that thread
> Pardon my ignorance please if I have made any mistake.



If there is a hit rate of 50% then it means that you have downed 250 enemy aircrafts. India have 272 SU-30 then if you can destroy those with the AMRAAMS who cares you don't have any more of them....

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## Raja Porus

Blueskiez 2001 said:


> If there is a hit rate of 50% then it means that you have downed 250 enemy aircrafts. India have 272 SU-30 then if you can destroy those with the AMRAAMS who cares you don't have any more of them....


Yep I was thinking the same. Thanks


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## PanzerKiel

Desert Fox 1 said:


> We have almost 500 AMRAAMS right? So if we have almost 70 f16s( keeping it simple for easier calculations) so it means for every f16 we have only 7 AMRAAMS and for every squadron we have almost 84 AMRAAMS ( if there are 12 f16s in a sqn) . Won't they get depleted quickly during war ( talking strictly of BVR engagements with regards to f16s and ignoring jft)? If this has been discussed earlier then please guide me to that thread
> Pardon my ignorance please if I have made any mistake.


Unofficial or sometimes official pacts with our extremely friendly countries allow us to dip into their war equipment reserves in times of extreme emergency, which has also been practiced by us.

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## Raja Porus

PanzerKiel said:


> Unofficial or sometimes official pacts with our extremely friendly countries allow us to dip into their war equipment reserves in times of extreme emergency, which has also been practiced by us.


Hmm.. Like turkey or Jordan

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## Trailer23

Desert Fox 1 said:


> We have almost 500 AMRAAMS right? So if we have almost 70 f16s( keeping it simple for easier calculations) so it means for every f16 we have only 7 AMRAAMS and for every squadron we have almost 84 AMRAAMS ( if there are 12 f16s in a sqn) .


Actually, the No. 19 Squadron (Sherdils) based out in Bholari doesn't use or can't use Aim-120 (AMRAAMs).

We've discussed it in the past that they're mostly equipped with Aim-9 (Sidewinders).

Not sure how many F-16's they have, but you'll need to redo the Math based on that.

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## Zulfiqar

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Yep I was thinking the same. Thanks




Also need to add SD-10s for 130+ JF-17s apart from 62 F-16s (excl 19 sqn ones as we don't know their status. They can probably carry 120-Bs but we don't have that IIRC).

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## ghazi52



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## khanasifm

Trailer23 said:


> Actually, the No. 19 Squadron (Sherdils) based out in Bholari doesn't use or can't use Aim-120 (AMRAAMs).
> 
> We've discussed it in the past that they're mostly equipped with Aim-9 (Sidewinders).
> 
> Not sure how many F-16's they have, but you'll need to redo the Math based on that.



Not true air defense variant of f-16 can carry all aam types aim-120, aim-9m which paf has in stock


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## ghazi52

June 26, 2010 - Wg Cdr Ghazanfar Latif poses for the camera after ferrying first ever F-16 Block-52 aircraft from U.S to Pakistan. He also led the team that ferried MLU F-16s from Turkey in Feb 2012. PAF’s fleet of F-16A/B Block-15 are undergoing MLU at Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), Turkey Completed In 2014.

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## ghazi52



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## Trailer23

khanasifm said:


> Not true air defense variant of f-16 can carry all aam types aim-120, aim-9m which paf has in stock


Yeah, i'm not sure about that.

I recall not too long ago we were all going back and forth looking for images and video clips of the No. 19 having Aim-120. I'm pretty certain no one found anything.

Are these the 13 ex-Royal Jordanian F-16's? Were those capable of carrying Amraams or were those just like the Iraqi F-16's?

@airomerix @Windjammer @Hodor

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## Viper27

khanasifm said:


> Not true air defense variant of f-16 can carry all aam types aim-120, aim-9m which paf has in stock



F-16 ADFs cannot carry the Aim-120Cs that PAF has in stock. The ones we acquired from Jordan are the basic ADF versions designed to carry upto 6 AMRAAMs of the older models. We do not have the AIM-120A or B. These jets are modified Block-15s and without any upgrades are not capable of firing the AIM-120C that's why you will always see the ADFs carrying sidewinders. This issue has been repeatedly discussed on the forum.


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## SQ8

khanasifm said:


> Not true air defense variant of f-16 can carry all aam types aim-120, aim-9m which paf has in stock





Trailer23 said:


> Yeah, i'm not sure about that.
> 
> I recall not too long ago we were all going back and forth looking for images and video clips of the No. 19 having Aim-120. I'm pretty certain no one found anything.
> 
> Are these the 13 ex-Royal Jordanian F-16's? Were those capable of carrying Amraams or were those just like the Iraqi F-16's?
> 
> @airomerix @Windjammer @Hodor


They can yield the 120 but still carry the APG-66A variant which is not as effective in combo vs the APG-68 on the MLU’s.

The 498 Amraams are focused on the MLU and block-52 fleet letting these airframes be run up as the OCU.


Viper27 said:


> F-16 ADFs cannot carry the Aim-120Cs that PAF has in stock. The ones we acquired from Jordan are the basic ADF versions designed to carry upto 6 AMRAAMs of the older models. We do not have the AIM-120A or B. These jets are modified Block-15s and without any upgrades are not capable of firing the AIM-120C that's why you will always see the ADFs carrying sidewinders. This issue has been repeatedly discussed on the forum.


The Jordanians asked for the upgrade in late 90’s - would assume the C’s are compatible with B launch protocols.

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## Viper27

SQ8 said:


> They can yield the 120 but still carry the APG-66A variant which is not as effective in combo vs the APG-68 on the MLU’s.
> 
> The 498 Amraams are focused on the MLU and block-52 fleet letting these airframes be run up as the OCU.
> 
> The Jordanians asked for the upgrade in late 90’s - would assume the C’s are compatible with B launch protocols.



Yes I do believe they did ask for upgrades but the Jordanian jets we acquired have not gone through any upgrades to enable them to carry the C's. Structurally they can carry the missile, its the firing that's not possible as the AIM120C is a significant enhancement over the previous versions.


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## SQ8

Viper27 said:


> Yes I do believe they did ask for upgrades but the Jordanian jets we acquired have not gone through any upgrades to enable them to carry the C's. Structurally they can carry the missile, its the firing that's not possible as the AIM120C is a significant enhancement over the previous versions.


In that case that settles the debate of missile distribution - not that its really a good metric since it’s more dependent on base depot distribution than anything.

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## Talon

Viper27 said:


> Structurally they can carry the missile


Can you explain this then? Because that's not the right way to mount an aim120

Edit : Screen grab from Parwaaz hy Junoon


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## Viper27

Hodor said:


> Can you explain this then? Because that's not the right way to mount an aim120
> View attachment 713147



To be honest this looks more like a photoshop to me. My finding was based on the information available on ADF's and their ability to wield these weapons. Perhaps someone else can chip in here.


----------



## Windjammer

Viper27 said:


> To be honest this looks more like a photoshop to me. My finding was based on the information available on ADF's and their ability to wield these weapons. Perhaps someone else can chip in here.


Well these Jordanian F-16 certainly seem to be supporting what looks like AMRAAMs.











@Hodor @SQ8

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## Talon

Viper27 said:


> To be honest this looks more like a photoshop to me. My finding was based on the information available on ADF's and their ability to wield these weapons. Perhaps someone else can chip in here.


No its not PSed, it's actually a screen grab from movie Parwaaz hy Junoon


Windjammer said:


> Well these Jordanian F-16 certainly seem to be supporting what looks like AMRAAMs.
> 
> View attachment 713173
> 
> 
> View attachment 713174
> 
> 
> @Hodor @SQ8


RJAF operates different blocks and variants of F-16s,they have MLUed vipers as well..the one's we acquired aren't MLUed..

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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 713195


I have already posted this image several days earlier (Page-978).
Despite people requesting you not to keep posting old images repeatedly, not sure why are you keen to keep doing the same.

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## PanzerKiel

Windjammer said:


> I have already posted this image several days earlier (Page-978).
> Despite people requesting you not to keep posting old images repeatedly, not sure why are you keen to keep doing the same.


I think that's the one I took it myself, once I had a seat in the viper as well.

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## Windjammer

PanzerKiel said:


> I think that's the one I took it myself, once I had a seat in the viper as well.



Is that where you are sitting in your camouflage uniform.

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## PanzerKiel

Windjammer said:


> Is that where you are sitting in your camouflage uniform.











Kill Switch Killed in Kamra


True they were in so much Panic that seems like they lost all the reason. I mean how stupid can they be to showcase a piece of Exploded AIM120 on media. If they hadnt shown it then PAF might have kept quiet about the other kill. It doesn't get any more pathetic than this.....one of the biggest...



defence.pk













Kill Switch Killed in Kamra


True they were in so much Panic that seems like they lost all the reason. I mean how stupid can they be to showcase a piece of Exploded AIM120 on media. If they hadnt shown it then PAF might have kept quiet about the other kill. It doesn't get any more pathetic than this.....one of the biggest...



defence.pk

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## Talon

PanzerKiel said:


> I think that's the one I took it myself, once I had a seat in the viper as well.


Think? I can recognise my pictures in a sec..next thing I do is claim copyright

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## PanzerKiel

Hodor said:


> Think? I can recognise my pictures in a sec..next thing I do is claim copyright


I didn't take even a second, but then, let's give others some breathing space.


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## User

PanzerKiel said:


> Kill Switch Killed in Kamra
> 
> 
> True they were in so much Panic that seems like they lost all the reason. I mean how stupid can they be to showcase a piece of Exploded AIM120 on media. If they hadnt shown it then PAF might have kept quiet about the other kill. It doesn't get any more pathetic than this.....one of the biggest...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kill Switch Killed in Kamra
> 
> 
> True they were in so much Panic that seems like they lost all the reason. I mean how stupid can they be to showcase a piece of Exploded AIM120 on media. If they hadnt shown it then PAF might have kept quiet about the other kill. It doesn't get any more pathetic than this.....one of the biggest...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 713246


Sir, are you a defence analyst?

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## PanzerKiel

User said:


> Sir, are you a defence analyst?


Don't know, but I do try to analyse whatever is happening around me..... Sheer innocence you see.

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## arjunk

User said:


> Sir, are you a defence analyst?


I can't believe no one took your username until December 2020...

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## Raja Porus

PanzerKiel said:


> Kill Switch Killed in Kamra
> 
> 
> True they were in so much Panic that seems like they lost all the reason. I mean how stupid can they be to showcase a piece of Exploded AIM120 on media. If they hadnt shown it then PAF might have kept quiet about the other kill. It doesn't get any more pathetic than this.....one of the biggest...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kill Switch Killed in Kamra
> 
> 
> True they were in so much Panic that seems like they lost all the reason. I mean how stupid can they be to showcase a piece of Exploded AIM120 on media. If they hadnt shown it then PAF might have kept quiet about the other kill. It doesn't get any more pathetic than this.....one of the biggest...
> 
> 
> 
> defence.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 713246


Sir you look young for your rank

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## User

PanzerKiel said:


> Don't know, but I do try to analyse whatever is happening around me..... Sheer innocence you see.


Ahahaha Sir it`s an honor to know that after an year of knowing you.


arjunk said:


> I can't believe no one took your username until December 2020...


LOL

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## User

PanzerKiel said:


> Don't know, but I do try to analyse whatever is happening around me..... Sheer innocence you see.


Last year, at the beginning of Nov, a GTO had told me I should become a defence analyst, after I was done doing my Command Task.
Not sure who rejected me.

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## airomerix

Hodor said:


> Can you explain this then? Because that's not the right way to mount an aim120
> 
> Edit : Screen grab from Parwaaz hy Junoon
> View attachment 713147



It's mounted on a dual rack launcher that is not specific to AMRAAM, but does its work. 

F-16 ADFs of 19 sqn can technically carry AMRAAMs but we choose not to do it. The radar of these ADF's is not suited for AMRAAMS potential. Until or unless, Saab 2000 gets behind these ADF's, PAF will be losing these AMRAAMs along with the ADF aircraft if these fighters go in without AWACS support against a well coordinated air attack by lets say, Rafales.

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## untitled

airomerix said:


> The radar of these ADF's is not suited for AMRAAMS potential.


Then why are we not trying to get more APG68s for these jets?

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## Windjammer



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## Raja Porus



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## khanasifm

SQ8 said:


> They can yield the 120 but still carry the APG-66A variant which is not as effective in combo vs the APG-68 on the MLU’s.
> 
> The 498 Amraams are focused on the MLU and block-52 fleet letting these airframes be run up as the OCU.
> 
> The Jordanians asked for the upgrade in late 90’s - would assume the C’s are compatible with B launch protocols.



In a sep 6 program at 19 sqn the pilot did specify they carry up to 6 amrams 

rest my case, program was by the famous military correspondent on ccs and should be available on YouTube


khanasifm said:


> In a sep 6 program at 19 sqn the pilot did specify they carry up to 6 amrams
> 
> rest my case, program was by the famous military correspondent on ccs and should be available on YouTube










khanasifm said:


> In a sep 6 program at 19 sqn the pilot did specify they carry up to 6 amrams
> 
> rest my case, program was by the famous military correspondent on ccs and should be available on YouTube


Unless he is mixing up things mlu ans adv


SQ8 said:


> They can yield the 120 but still carry the APG-66A variant which is not as effective in combo vs the APG-68 on the MLU’s.
> 
> The 498 Amraams are focused on the MLU and block-52 fleet letting these airframes be run up as the OCU.
> 
> The Jordanians asked for the upgrade in late 90’s - would assume the C’s are compatible with B launch protocols.







__





F-16 Versions - F-16 ADF







www.f-16.net


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## SQ8

khanasifm said:


> In a sep 6 program at 19 sqn the pilot did specify they carry up to 6 amrams
> 
> rest my case, program was by the famous military correspondent on ccs and should be available on YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless he is mixing up things mlu ans adv
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 Versions - F-16 ADF
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.f-16.net


I would echo the earlier sentiment that while these can use the AMRAAM, they wont be as effective with them as the MLU’s would. They are good as OCU and even OCA assets, best to not waste them in A2A unless absolutely necessary.

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## GriffinsRule

Desert Fox 1 said:


> View attachment 713607


Fake


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## m52k85

GriffinsRule said:


> Fake


Yes, load out doesn't make sense.


SQ8 said:


> I would echo the earlier sentiment that while these can use the AMRAAM, they wont be as effective with them as the MLU’s would. They are good as OCU and even OCA assets, best to not waste them in A2A unless absolutely necessary.


HOw do you make an OCU out of 12 single seaters and 1 dual seater?


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## GriffinsRule

m52k85 said:


> Yes, load out doesn't make sense.
> 
> HOw do you make an OCU out of 12 single seaters and 1 dual seater?


The load out is fine in practice, but PAF does not use that targeting pod. Its from a game no doubt. Some other telltale signs as well.


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## m52k85

GriffinsRule said:


> The load out is fine in practice, but PAF does not use that targeting pod. Its from a game no doubt. Some other telltale signs as well.


I see, but why would you put a targeting pod on a mission with dumb bombs?


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## GriffinsRule

m52k85 said:


> I see, but why would you put a targeting pod on a mission with dumb bombs?


ISR purposes.

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## Incog_nito

With all the current problems and issues, I am still hopeful that PAF will bring the remaining 14 F-16s back with an upgrade package of MLU-4 for all of the F-16 fleet.

Just, I have a question - is there any country open to selling off their F-16 Block-52s?


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## Trailer23

Incog_nito said:


> I am still hopeful that PAF will bring the remaining 14 F-16s back with an upgrade package of MLU-4 for all of the F-16 fleet.


You're beginning to sound like @mingle with statements like those. Its admirable to have positive thoughts, but not those that'll leave you heart broken in the end.


> ...is there any country open to selling off their F-16 Block-52s?


The answer to that is in two points.
Yes - the US has Block 52's that they'd be willing to part with. Only other Nations (I know of) that have Block 52's are Turkey, Greece, Poland and Morocco (I think).
No - we don't have a shot in hell gettin' them.

You know the Lottery people talk of. Well its something like that. If we get any F-16's it'll be equal to hitting the jackpot.

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## Incog_nito

Trailer23 said:


> You're beginning to sound like @mingle with statements like those. Its admirable to have positive thoughts, but not those that'll leave you heart broken in the end.
> 
> The answer to that is in two points.
> Yes - the US has Block 52's that they'd be willing to part with. Only other Nations (I know of) that have Block 52's are Turkey, Greece, Poland and Morocco (I think).
> No - we don't have a shot in hell gettin' them.
> 
> You know the Lottery people talk of. Well its something like that. If we get any F-16's it'll be equal to hitting the jackpot.



I'm sure we will going to hit the jackpot soon. The diversification of equipment in the Pakistan Military is a very strategic move and I support this 

Let's see, when the new US Govt. will be open to accepting offers from Pakistan. 
I'm sure besides the 14 Block-15s, PAF has eyes on ex-USAF F-16s Block-15s with MLU-4 for the whole fleet.

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## Trailer23

Incog_nito said:


> ...PAF has eyes on ex-USAF F-16s Block-15s...


*Block 15's  !!!*

What do you plan to get out of those? They're almost 4 decades old my good man.

Had you of said Block 30's or 40's would have been something worth considering (seriously) with MLU.

But those Block 15's have seen a lot of action in the Gulf War & Bosnia. I'm pretty certain their airframe is 'The End'.


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## mingle

Trailer23 said:


> You're beginning to sound like @mingle with statements like those. Its admirable to have positive thoughts, but not those that'll leave you heart broken in the end.
> 
> The answer to that is in two points.
> Yes - the US has Block 52's that they'd be willing to part with. Only other Nations (I know of) that have Block 52's are Turkey, Greece, Poland and Morocco (I think).
> No - we don't have a shot in hell gettin' them.
> 
> You know the Lottery people talk of. Well its something like that. If we get any F-16's it'll be equal to hitting the jackpot.


Could be my second ID

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## GriffinsRule

Trailer23 said:


> *Block 15's  !!!*
> 
> What do you plan to get out of those? They're almost 4 decades old my good man.
> 
> Had you of said Block 30's or 40's would have been something worth considering (seriously) with MLU.
> 
> But those Block 15's have seen a lot of action in the Gulf War & Bosnia. I'm pretty certain their airframe is 'The End'.


There are very few early block 30/40 as very few were built compared to block 15.
Then there's the airframe lives. Regardless of the block, any used F-16 will need slep/falcon up and mlu. So if in the ends it's the electronics that matter, all of which will be replaced, then it doesn't matter if we get the earlier models. At least with block 15s we already have them in service. There are still differences between each block of F-16s even if minor. However, used F-16s are now a stopgap for Pakistan until our own next gen fighter in the 2040s. Only new F-16s will serve for another 40-50 years


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## Trailer23

@GriffinsRule 
I wish there was a way to access which jets the US have stored in their inventory. I'm sure the PAF must be having the official number - in terms of F-16's (ofcourse). No point shopping for A-10's.

I'm all for the stop gap-part, but only if we get 'em instantly without any b.s. from the DoD. Its not as if we're dealing with F-15EX or the new F-18's.

You pay for 'em and get 'em. None of this "Pay now - Get Later".


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## GriffinsRule

Trailer23 said:


> @GriffinsRule
> I wish there was a way to access which jets the US have stored in their inventory. I'm sure the PAF must be having the official number - in terms of F-16's (ofcourse). No point shopping for A-10's.
> 
> I'm all for the stop gap-part, but only if we get 'em instantly without any b.s. from the DoD. Its not as if we're dealing with F-15EX or the new F-18's.
> 
> You pay for 'em and get 'em. None of this "Pay now - Get Later".


Even the get now for used ones will be a few years as you go through the different hoops involved in the purchase and then the subsequent upgrades, also time consuming.


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## Windjammer



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## SQ8

Trailer23 said:


> @GriffinsRule
> I wish there was a way to access which jets the US have stored in their inventory. I'm sure the PAF must be having the official number - in terms of F-16's (ofcourse). No point shopping for A-10's.
> 
> I'm all for the stop gap-part, but only if we get 'em instantly without any b.s. from the DoD. Its not as if we're dealing with F-15EX or the new F-18's.
> 
> You pay for 'em and get 'em. None of this "Pay now - Get Later".


AMARC has a complete database available

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## The Maverick

this is still the only thing stopping indian air Force supremacy in a potential conflict. I completely understand why members still.want even base line block 40 f16 over any other fighter.

your 18 block 52 will remain the outstanding opponent for indian pilots well.into future at present..
I rate it higher than even.the block 3 thunders..
even the older f16 with mlu would be a challenge to mki and Rafale mirage 2000 fleet


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## araz

The Maverick said:


> this is still the only thing stopping indian air Force supremacy in a potential conflict. I completely understand why members still.want even base line block 40 f16 over any other fighter.
> 
> your 18 block 52 will remain the outstanding opponent for indian pilots well.into future at present..
> I rate it higher than even.the block 3 thunders..
> even the older f16 with mlu would be a challenge to mki and Rafale mirage 2000 fleet


Naa bhai we are not that deluded. J10 would be-an-equally good buybut we have infrastructure for 150 F16s which would make it sensible and cheaper to buy that. The rest are all assumptions. PAF pilots and 8ndeed IAF pilots-would be good enough once properly trained on any 4th gen fighter.
A

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## Aspen

araz said:


> Naa bhai we are not that deluded. J10 would be-an-equally good buybut we have infrastructure for 150 F16s which would make it sensible and cheaper to buy that. The rest are all assumptions. PAF pilots and 8ndeed IAF pilots-would be good enough once properly trained on any 4th gen fighter.
> A



Fully agree.

Even US defence experts nowadays concede that J-10C can match or beat any capability of F-16 Block 60

I would actually go for J-10C if it was between J-10C and new block F-16's because J-10C's are more capable and agile, they have higher thrust and better instantaneous turning capabilities than F-16.

Mainly F-16 has better jamming capabilities but that gap is closing very fast with PLAAF EW advancements on J-10, not to mention excellent variety of missiles like PL-15. J-10C AESA is already better than F-16.

And WS-10 equipped J-10C is still the only single engined fighter aircraft in the world to have thrust vectoring, which no F-16 or even F-35 has.

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## mingle

Aspen said:


> Fully agree.
> 
> Even US defence experts nowadays concede that J-10C can match or beat any capability of F-16 Block 60
> 
> I would actually go for J-10C if it was between J-10C and new block F-16's because J-10C's are more capable and agile, they have higher thrust and better instantaneous turning capabilities than F-16.
> 
> Mainly F-16 has better jamming capabilities but that gap is closing very fast with PLAAF EW advancements on J-10, not to mention excellent variety of missiles like PL-15. J-10C AESA is already better than F-16.
> 
> And WS-10 equipped J-10C is still the only single engined fighter aircraft in the world to have thrust vectoring, which no F-16 or even F-35 has.


Even if F16s are available PAF should induct J10 in medium batches an ideal replacement for our Mirages. J10 F16 along JF-17 are good enough till fifth Gen arrives


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## araz

Aspen said:


> Fully agree.
> 
> Even US defence experts nowadays concede that J-10C can match or beat any capability of F-16 Block 60
> 
> I would actually go for J-10C if it was between J-10C and new block F-16's because J-10C's are more capable and agile, they have higher thrust and better instantaneous turning capabilities than F-16.
> 
> Mainly F-16 has better jamming capabilities but that gap is closing very fast with PLAAF EW advancements on J-10, not to mention excellent variety of missiles like PL-15. J-10C AESA is already better than F-16.
> 
> And WS-10 equipped J-10C is still the only single engined fighter aircraft in the world to have thrust vectoring, which no F-16 or even F-35 has.


I agree to some extent. There are crucial techs like ASMs , possibly HOBS,and llng range BVRs Which the 16s might not-come with. The J10Cs will have no restrictions on those techs. However, the sheer fear in IAF at the sight of a 16 is-worth it in spite of not having the te hs one talks about.
The maturity of the 16s the readiness of our workforce both to fly and maintain it and the sheer experience available on the 16s in PAF makes PAF-say.
چھٹتی نہین ھے منہ کو یہ ظالم لگی ہوی
This remains PAFs dilema and the saga of its love with the F16s.
A

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## khanasifm

SQ8 said:


> AMARC has a complete database available



a few points GE engine based aircraft bloc 10/30/40/50.... andp&w based aircraft are not inter changeable meaning you cannot put GE engine of an aircraft w/o mod as engine mount point are different also specs ans equipment is different so there are some older Italians aor force returned F-16A amrac but no life left or too little perhaps good for spare recovery

secondly US will not allow pac to perform any mod so too expansive to do mods else’s where

the 8 f-15 bloc 52 last time werw meant to add number to bring onesqn to max strength

I will not count on f-16 on future nor is paf 

chao


SQ8 said:


> I would echo the earlier sentiment that while these can use the AMRAAM, they wont be as effective with them as the MLU’s would. They are good as OCU and even OCA assets, best to not waste them in A2A unless absolutely necessary.



paf f-16 are Gr8 in a2a but a2g no Stand off weapons doubt they would be prefers role max lgb with 20 km range rather jf-17 and mirages will take a2g role with stand off weapons 60-500 km range

h2, h4, range ext kit based bombs plus cruise missile


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## GriffinsRule

khanasifm said:


> a few points GE engine based aircraft bloc 10/30/40/50.... andp&w based aircraft are not inter changeable meaning you cannot put GE engine of an aircraft w/o mod as engine mount point are different also specs ans equipment is different so there are some older Italians aor force returned F-16A amrac but no life left or too little perhaps good for spare recovery
> 
> secondly US will not allow pac to perform any mod so too expansive to do mods else’s where
> 
> the 8 f-15 bloc 52 last time werw meant to add number to bring onesqn to max strength
> 
> I will not count on f-16 on future nor is paf
> 
> chao
> 
> 
> paf f-16 are Gr8 in a2a but a2g no Stand off weapons doubt they would be prefers role max lgb with 20 km range rather jf-17 and mirages will take a2g role with stand off weapons 60-500 km range
> 
> h2, h4, range ext kit based bombs plus cruise missile


Currently, F-16s are a great asset for both accurate and diverse A-G roles as well. Most precision strikes against the terrorists in Pakistan were done by the F-16s as well.
The Mirages guided bombs are not a very viable solution and most likely the H2 and H4 bombs will retire alongside with the platform. Anytime you need 2 aircraft to drop a bomb, and that too where it has to be guided by a dual-seat, its asking for trouble. There are very few twin seaters available as is and peace time attrition alone will whittle this capability away slowly. 
As for JF-17s, they are just now starting to use the Turkish LDP. Sure, they can use gps guided glide bombs like any other aircraft, but their precision strike capability is still being enhanced slowly. Hopefully we will see more Turkish smart weapons in service including cruise missiles and such in our service.

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## SQ8

khanasifm said:


> a few points GE engine based aircraft bloc 10/30/40/50.... andp&w based aircraft are not inter changeable meaning you cannot put GE engine of an aircraft w/o mod as engine mount point are different also specs ans equipment is different so there are some older Italians aor force returned F-16A amrac but no life left or too little perhaps good for spare recovery
> 
> secondly US will not allow pac to perform any mod so too expansive to do mods else’s where
> 
> the 8 f-15 bloc 52 last time werw meant to add number to bring onesqn to max strength
> 
> I will not count on f-16 on future nor is paf
> 
> chao
> 
> 
> paf f-16 are Gr8 in a2a but a2g no Stand off weapons doubt they would be prefers role max lgb with 20 km range rather jf-17 and mirages will take a2g role with stand off weapons 60-500 km range
> 
> h2, h4, range ext kit based bombs plus cruise missile


I really have not understood what you are trying to say


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## GriffinsRule

SQ8 said:


> I really have not understood what you are trying to say


I think he is saying not all F-16s in storage can be easily used by PAF. I think the engines are interchangeable however, other things like intakes are different and would have to be changed etc. Basically not as many P&W C/Ds available vs A/B that all used the same engine.


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## SQ8

GriffinsRule said:


> I think he is saying not all F-16s in storage can be easily used by PAF. I think the engines are interchangeable however, other things like intakes are different and would have to be changed etc. Basically not as many P&W C/Ds available vs A/B that all used the same engine.


Ok to him then. I really never looked but only wanted to provide the link to the database.


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## airomerix

GriffinsRule said:


> I think he is saying not all F-16s in storage can be easily used by PAF. I think the engines are interchangeable however, other things like intakes are different and would have to be changed etc. Basically not as many P&W C/Ds available vs A/B that all used the same engine.



I posted the following some time ago in response to PAF being able to operate GE powered F-16s.




> It is technically possible but with a HUGE cost of both 'attempting' it and 'sustaining it'. If you're a country that has F100 powered Eagles or Vipers; it is VERY expensive to start buying the same airframe with different engines. Ask the USAF.
> 
> PAF will need twice as much tooling in its intermediate engine maintenance facilities to maintain the two separate engine types. An engine shop has millions and millions of dollars worth of special tooling for each type of engine.
> 
> Even the various models of F100 share only a portion (70% or so) of their tooling.
> 
> If PAF goes for a 50/50 split, it not only gives PAF "competition" but also makes operating 100% of the fleet TWICE as complex and expensive.
> 
> This is why there is resistance to GE getting contracts for the JSF engines as PW is the prime engine supplier. Not to mention some engine parts and tooling will be shared for the F/A-22 and JSF, like the F-15 and F-16.
> 
> Point to ponder: If you had 100 F100-220 engines, and could buy 20 new -229s that only require 30% new tooling, would you buy 20 new GEs and have to buy 100% new tooling to support less than 1/3 of your fleet? Would you replace all your old engines with GEs and have to spend 10s of millions of dollars to modify your existing aircraft fleet?

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## GriffinsRule

airomerix said:


> I posted the following some time ago in response to PAF being able to operate GE powered F-16s.


Yep its not feasible at all to have a mix engine fleet

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## Incog_nito

Trailer23 said:


> *Block 15's  !!!*
> 
> What do you plan to get out of those? They're almost 4 decades old my good man.
> 
> Had you of said Block 30's or 40's would have been something worth considering (seriously) with MLU.
> 
> But those Block 15's have seen a lot of action in the Gulf War & Bosnia. I'm pretty certain their airframe is 'The End'.



MLU-4 upgrade will replace the old parts and add new life to Engine, Airframe, and new generation avaionics.


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## Akh1112

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1358817719529963522


Incog_nito said:


> MLU-4 upgrade will replace the old parts and add new life to Engine, Airframe, and new generation avaionics.


airframe life is exclusively a Falcon STAR or SLEP program thing, MLU focuses on avionics


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## GiG

very interesting report from RAND about USAF and PAF engagement to look at:https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/AD1085808.pdf

*Specific Recommendations*

Continue to approve maintenance, training, and support for existing PAF F-16s, and be very wary of calls to forgo (or drastically accelerate) future transfers. F-16s are more than just a high-tech system that provides PAF a perceived balancer for the Indian Air Force. F-16s are the single most important symbol of a historic and long-term security relationship between the United States and Pakistan; for Pakistan, they are a concrete manifestation of U.S. friendship and support. Terminating F-16 transfers could further reduce the already limited influence that the United States enjoys with Pakistan and drive Islamabad into an even closer military partnership with Beijing. While China is Pakistan’s largest overall supplier of military hardware, F-16s remain a vital U.S. leverage point. Pakistan’s continued desire for F-16s, and the United States’ willingness to provide them, may be the lynchpin for long-term agreements related to access, airspace, and logistics. At the same time, the United States should be cautious of providing any new capabilities sufficiently destabilizing as to damage U.S. engagement with India. A brief rundown of several drawbacks and benefits of continued provision of F-16s and related military hardware may be instructive:
*Drawbacks include the following:*

 Continued provision of F-16 technology provides Pakistan with its aircraft most capable of carrying out missions against India, thereby possibly increasing the potential for conflict between these nations.
It provides Pakistan with the most capable aircraft for potential delivery of nuclear warheads to targets in India.
 It fosters the perception that the United States is unwilling to cut off its highest-profile security cooperation program even after decades of allegations of Pakistani support for international terrorist organizations, such as al Qaeda, the Taliban, and LeT.
Given India’s superiority in the conventional air power arena, and effective parity (perhaps operational superiority) in the nuclear arena, this last point remains the most potent, and to the authors of this report the most persuasive, argument for severing the F-16 supply.

*Benefits include the following:* 


Continued provision of F-16 technology provides continued U.S. leverage over Pakistani decisions—not as much leverage as the United States would like, but far more leverage than if F-16 technology were shut off. 
It provides USAF with continued visibility into PAF capabilities and intentions: Without the ongoing exchange of information that accompanies provision and operation of F-16s, USAF would lose a valuable source of insight into what PAF is able to do and what Pakistan’s apex decisionmakers want it to do. 
It prevents Pakistan from becoming a full-fledged security partner of China. When China becomes Pakistan’s supplier not only of the most military equipment but also of the highest level of military technology in its arsenal, the balance of influence in Asia will shift in Beijing’s direction. 
It provides political symbolism outstripping the actual military utility of the aircraft itself. For Pakistan, as for perhaps no other nation, an F-16 is far more than a fighter jet: It is a source of national pride—and a clear marker of U.S. commitment.
In the authors’ view, this last point is probably the most important one. Given the history of the F-16 program, a cut-off in the present would be interpreted as a replay of the “betrayal and abandonment” Pakistani narrative of the 1990s. The F-16 is a very capable aircraft—but it may be even more capable as a tool of policy and statecraft than of actual war-fighting.

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## Nomad40

PAF has a decision to make on its Hands.

Make Sherdil's F-16 up par with rest of its fleet.....Tape3/4 upgrades.
OR
Get hands on some AIM-120b.......Preferably. 

In my Humble Opinion there will be no more F-16s for the PAF unless there is subtle change in policy. 

PAF needs to focus on 3 aspects of its operations and that can be discussed further when the time comes but for now what the PAF needs to do is to Maintain Balance with its counter Parts and not Only the IAF.

The first steps are simple and It will start of Keeping a fair balance of Western and Eastern equipment and west doesn't necessarily imply to The USA made or European made. Like wise Balance doesn't apply to a 1/1 for W&E.

I know China is a good collaborator and has certainly learned unpriceable amount's from our use of Western Equipment but fostering another collaboration with 1 other country which IMO is definitely not Turkey.

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## Windjammer

RTB After Dusk Patrol.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

It will be a folly , and a mistake to keep dreaming about F16 , world has moved on with new Technologies and options , we need to starting looking at other solutions beyond F16

A Kit Kat bar , 100 grams is same as a the 5 mini Kit Kat Bar (20 gram) just the wrapping looks different 

Time to aim for more Advance options in market

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## ghazi52



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## FuturePAF

Mirage Battle Commander said:


> I know China is a good collaborator and has certainly learned unpriceable amount's from our use of Western Equipment but fostering another collaboration with 1 other country which IMO is definitely not Turkey.



Italy has been the most reliable European Supplier for Pakistan in recent years. As a partner in the Tempest project, they seem to be the best European partner Pakistan can do business with, vis a vi future advanced aerospace developments.









Italy joins Britain’s Tempest combat aircraft program


Rome's involvement solidifies what is becoming a major race in Europe to develop a next-generation warplane for the continent.




www.defensenews.com

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## Xone

Pakistan Has to some daring moves to influence US, otherwise obvious decision is, no more big tickets for Pakistan, especially giving any edge over India.


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## Trailer23

Currently working on a new Patch for the PAF.

*Q.* Could anyone confirm the Powerplant/Engine used on our Block-15's?

Is it the *Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200*...?

@airomerix @Hodor @Raider 21


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## aliyusuf

Trailer23 said:


> Currently working on a new Patch for the PAF.
> 
> *Q.* Could anyone confirm the Powerplant/Engine used on our Block-15's?
> 
> Is it the *Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200*...?
> 
> @airomerix @Hodor @Raider 21


I think the RJAF Block-15s use the better *Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220* and some of our upgraded Block-15s also use this engine. The rest of the upgraded Block15's, I assume, use the original *Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200. *


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## Windjammer

*Painting depicting, Haseeb Paracha and boys escorting a C-130 carrying some very sensitive cargo in May 1998.*

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## Air Wolf

Aatish bazi ka samaan.


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## Clairvoyant

Trailer23 said:


> Currently working on a new Patch for the PAF.
> 
> *Q.* Could anyone confirm the Powerplant/Engine used on our Block-15's?
> 
> Is it the *Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200*...?
> 
> @airomerix @Hodor @Raider 21




Initially all F.16s came with F100-PW 200 engine but it was later on upgraded to PW220 so now all block 15's including the ADF's have PW220 installed.

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## GriffinsRule

Clairvoyant said:


> Initially all F.16s came with F100-PW 200 engine but it was later on upgraded to PW220 so now all block 15's including the ADF's have PW220 installed.



Slightly incorrect. All Block 15s where initially powered by The F100-PW-100. US later supplied us kits to upgrade them at various times to first the PW-200 and finally to PW-220E standard in during the MLU. Aside from the kits, 14 new engines were also acquired around that time.

C/Ds of course carry the The F100-PW-229 EEP engine.

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## adelphi

Windjammer said:


> *Painting depicting, Haseeb Paracha and boys escorting a C-130 carrying some very sensitive cargo in May 1998.*
> 
> View attachment 717159


A bit inaccurate depiction I guess....Remember reading somewhere that escorting F-16s were not armed and orders were to clip off the rudder if C-130 ever tried to deviate from flight path. Also 84715 is showing inflight refueling which was not available in 1998.

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## Windjammer

adelphi said:


> A bit inaccurate depiction I guess....Remember reading somewhere that escorting F-16s were not armed and orders were to clip off the rudder if C-130 ever tried to deviate from flight path. Also 84715 is showing inflight refueling which was not available in 1998.


What was purpose of using F-16 as an escort if they weren't armed and if the intention was just to clip the C-130 then why risk your top line fighter....might as well use an F-6 or K-8.
The marking has always been there if that implies for inflight refuelling.

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## Clairvoyant

GriffinsRule said:


> Slightly incorrect. All Block 15s where initially powered by The F100-PW-100. US later supplied us kits to upgrade them at various times to first the PW-200 and finally to PW-220E standard in during the MLU. Aside from the kits, 14 new engines were also acquired around that time.
> 
> C/Ds of course carry the The F100-PW-229 EEP engine.



Dear the PW 100 only powered early F.15's, all F.16s delivered to us were powered by PW 200 engines.

Starting from late 90's all the engines were upgraded to PW220E standard and it happened before the F.16's were upgraded to MLU standard.

For reference kindly read this article from F-16.net.





__





F-16 Air Forces - Pakistan







www.f-16.net





*Peace Gate II*
The remaining 34 aircraft were delivered under Peace Gate II. The Pakistani F-16A/B's are all Block 15 aircraft, the final version of the F-16A/B production run, and *are powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200 turbofan. *All 40 'Peace Gate I & II' aircraft were delivered between 1983 and 1987. By 1997, 8 aircraft of the initial Peace Gate I & II order have been written off in various mishaps, hence 32 remain in service and despite the embargo, caused by the Pakistan-specific Pressler Amendment (see below), are being fully supported by commercial contracts.


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## adelphi

Windjammer said:


> What was purpose of using F-16 as an escort if they weren't armed and if the intention was just to clip the C-130 then why risk your top line fighter....might as well use an F-6 or K-8.
> The marking has always been there if that implies for inflight refuelling.
> 
> View attachment 717236


Can't remember where I read it, could be Kaisar Tufail's blog or global security forum. I'll try to find the link. Probably the CAP was armed but not escorting F-16s. Anyways it could be part of deliberate effort to mislead due to security reasons. I also remember reports where railway was mentioned as mode of transport.


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## SQ8

adelphi said:


> Can't remember where I read it, could be Kaisar Tufail's blog or global security forum. I'll try to find the link. Probably the CAP was armed but not escorting F-16s. Anyways it could be part of deliberate effort to mislead due to security reasons. I also remember reports where railway was mentioned as mode of transport.


F-16’s were armed and had strict orders to blow the C-130 out of the sky if it tried to divert or if there were other aerial assets in the sky.

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## GriffinsRule

Clairvoyant said:


> Dear the PW 100 only powered early F.15's, all F.16s delivered to us were powered by PW 200 engines.
> 
> Starting from late 90's all the engines were upgraded to PW220E standard and it happened before the F.16's were upgraded to MLU standard.
> 
> For reference kindly read this article from F-16.net.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 Air Forces - Pakistan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.f-16.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Peace Gate II*
> The remaining 34 aircraft were delivered under Peace Gate II. The Pakistani F-16A/B's are all Block 15 aircraft, the final version of the F-16A/B production run, and *are powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200 turbofan. *All 40 'Peace Gate I & II' aircraft were delivered between 1983 and 1987. By 1997, 8 aircraft of the initial Peace Gate I & II order have been written off in various mishaps, hence 32 remain in service and despite the embargo, caused by the Pakistan-specific Pressler Amendment (see below), are being fully supported by commercial contracts.



Ah you are right. The initial upgrade was from 200 to 220 engines (OCU standard) and then to 220E.


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## Raja Porus



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## wasileo80

adelphi said:


> A bit inaccurate depiction I guess....Remember reading somewhere that escorting F-16s were not armed and orders were to clip off the rudder if C-130 ever tried to deviate from flight path. Also 84715 is showing inflight refueling which was not available in 1998.


Each F-16 was armed with 4 AAMs during escorting C130s to Dalbenden Airfield.

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## arjunk

adelphi said:


> A bit inaccurate depiction I guess....Remember reading somewhere that escorting F-16s were not armed and orders were to clip off the rudder if C-130 ever tried to deviate from flight path. Also 84715 is showing inflight refueling which was not available in 1998.



Each F-16 was instructed to not deviate from the flight path in ANY circumstances after takeoff. Their radios were switched off, so that after takeoff, no order could be given to stop them. They were armed with 4 air to air missiles.

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## The Raven

adelphi said:


> A bit inaccurate depiction I guess....Remember reading somewhere that escorting F-16s were not armed and orders were to clip off the rudder if C-130 ever tried to deviate from flight path. Also 84715 is showing inflight refueling which was not available in 1998.



All PAF F-16s, going back to the first Block-15s, have IFR capability. The US uses boom IFR for their main fighters (F-15, F-16), which requires the receptacles to be inbuilt and integrated with the airframe, and would require work to actually remove IFR capability. It's not like drogue/probe IFR where either a fixed or retractable external probe is required.

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## GriffinsRule

arjunk said:


> Each F-16 was instructed to not deviate from the flight path in ANY circumstances after takeoff. Their radios were switched off, so that after takeoff, no order could be given to stop them. They were armed with 4 air to air missiles.


What's this C-130 story?


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## arjunk

GriffinsRule said:


> What's this C-130 story?



For the nuclear tests, the nuclear devices were themselves flown in completely knocked down (CKD) sub-assembly form on a Pakistan Air Force C-130 Hercules tactical transport aircraft from Rawalpindi to Chagai, escorted even within Pakistani airspace by four PAF F-16s armed with air-to-air missiles.

The security of the devices was so strict that the PAF F-16 escort pilots had been secretly given standing orders that in the unlikely event of the C-130 being hijacked or flown outside of Pakistani airspace, they were to shoot down the aircraft before it left Pakistan’s airspace. The F-16s were ordered to escort the C-130 at a designated airfield in Balochistan with their radio communications equipment turned off so that no orders, in the interim, could be conveyed to them to act otherwise. They were also ordered to ignore any orders to the contrary that got through to them during the duration of the flight even if such orders originated from Air Headquarters. 

May 28, 1998 dawned with an air alert over all military and strategic installations of Pakistan. The Pakistan Air Force had earlier been put on red alert to respond to the possibility of an Indian and Israeli pre-emptive strike against its nuclear installations. PAF F-16A and F-7MP air defence fighters were scrambled from air bases around the country to remain vigilant and prepared for any eventuality.

Before twilight, the automatic transmission data link from all of Pakistani seismic stations to the outside world was switched off.

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## Amigator

Can't imagine what those f16 pilots were thinking during the mission.


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## Blueskiez 2001

Amigator said:


> Can't imagine what those f16 pilots were thinking during the mission.



Yeah it was probably a mentally very tough mission. 

And not to think about the pilots of the C-130 - did they know the orders to the F16 pilots?

Many interviews has been given by many about the situation in 1998. Any interview of the pilots?

I have not read any


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## baqai

i think in such sensitive missions the crew of the C130 would have gotten separate briefing of taking actions (kill to take control) against his fellow pilot/co-pilot in case of any deviation from standard plan, i might be wrong though, someone with knowledge might make a comment on that

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## Yasser76

baqai said:


> i think in such sensitive missions the crew of the C130 would have gotten separate briefing of taking actions (kill to take control) against his fellow pilot/co-pilot in case of any deviation from standard plan, i might be wrong though, someone with knowledge might make a comment on that



The more you think about it and the fact the likes of the US, Russia, India and Israel really wanted to prevent this happening and we still did it shows why (despite our economic and social challenges) Pakistan holds itself head very high up in the Muslim world. Still after 23 years after we test, the world's only muslim nuclear power

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## Windjammer

Yasser76 said:


> The more you think about it and the fact the likes of the US, Russia, India and Israel really wanted to prevent this happening and we still did it shows why (despite our economic and social challenges) Pakistan holds itself head very high up in the Muslim world. Still after 23 years after we test, the world's only muslim nuclear power


And transporting the devices from the airfield to ground Zero was another risky and major challenge....so formation of some 200 trucks was used so no one knew which trucks or how many were actually carrying the sensitive cargo.....

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> And transporting the devices from the airfield to ground Zero was another risky and major challenge....so formation of some 200 trucks was used so no one knew which trucks or how many were actually carrying the sensitive cargo.....


Interestingly that truck formation technique was used for some years even after the tests to transport devices. Hiding in plain sight has been the Pakistani preference for a long time until a few years ago.

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## Reichmarshal

AM Najeeb Akhtar was I think commanding the mission.


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## arjunk

Windjammer said:


> And transporting the devices from the airfield to ground Zero was another risky and major challenge....so formation of some 200 trucks was used so no one knew which trucks or how many were actually carrying the sensitive cargo.....



Pakistani nukes up till recently at least were carried in plain sight. The next time you see a truck, it may be carrying part of a warhead that could end up vapourising a few enemy brigades.


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## Windjammer

SQ8 said:


> Interestingly that truck formation technique was used for some years even after the tests to transport devices. Hiding in plain sight has been the Pakistani preference for a long time until a few years ago.


I guess now even here in UK, where a few years back they stopped flypast by a couple of Typhoons, as there was a Zoo in the flight path where some birds were hatching but they are fine transporting Nuclear devices on a busy motorway....just for precaution, there is a fire truck and ambulance as part of the convoy.

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## Raja Porus



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## StructE

The U.S. Air Force’s F-16 Replacement Plan Is Taking Shape


In comments made to the Defense Writers Group, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Charles Q. Brown explained that the Air Force would like a new, from-scratch fighter to replace the F-16 with wha




www.realcleardefense.com






In comments made to the Defense Writers Group, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Charles Q. Brown explained that the Air Force would like a new, from-scratch fighter to replace the F-16 with what seems to be capabilities somewhere in between the F-16 and the F-35. “Now, I will also tell you I don’t think that everybody’s going to exactly agree with what I say,” Brown explained. “But I want to actually have a starting point as a point of departure, a point of dialogue.”

Brown elaborated on the design, saying that it would tentatively be categorized as a 4.5 or 5-minus generation fighter, Breaking Defense reported.

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## Raja Porus

StructE said:


> The U.S. Air Force’s F-16 Replacement Plan Is Taking Shape
> 
> 
> In comments made to the Defense Writers Group, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Charles Q. Brown explained that the Air Force would like a new, from-scratch fighter to replace the F-16 with wha
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.realcleardefense.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In comments made to the Defense Writers Group, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Charles Q. Brown explained that the Air Force would like a new, from-scratch fighter to replace the F-16 with what seems to be capabilities somewhere in between the F-16 and the F-35. “Now, I will also tell you I don’t think that everybody’s going to exactly agree with what I say,” Brown explained. “But I want to actually have a starting point as a point of departure, a point of dialogue.”
> 
> Brown elaborated on the design, saying that it would tentatively be categorized as a 4.5 or 5-minus generation fighter, Breaking Defense reported.


Why not F15-EX or f16V. Won't it be a waste of useful dollars


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## Rahil khan

StructE said:


> The U.S. Air Force’s F-16 Replacement Plan Is Taking Shape
> 
> 
> In comments made to the Defense Writers Group, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Charles Q. Brown explained that the Air Force would like a new, from-scratch fighter to replace the F-16 with wha
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.realcleardefense.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In comments made to the Defense Writers Group, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Charles Q. Brown explained that the Air Force would like a new, from-scratch fighter to replace the F-16 with what seems to be capabilities somewhere in between the F-16 and the F-35. “Now, I will also tell you I don’t think that everybody’s going to exactly agree with what I say,” Brown explained. “But I want to actually have a starting point as a point of departure, a point of dialogue.”
> 
> Brown elaborated on the design, saying that it would tentatively be categorized as a 4.5 or 5-minus generation fighter, Breaking Defense reported.


It can be F-21 fighter concept i guess.


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## Basel

Incog_nito said:


> With all the current problems and issues, I am still hopeful that PAF will bring the remaining 14 F-16s back with an upgrade package of MLU-4 for all of the F-16 fleet.
> 
> Just, I have a question - is there any country open to selling off their F-16 Block-52s?



In current senerio it will be big win if PAF can secure SLEP & possibly "V" upgrade for it's F-16s.

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## Shameel

Windjammer said:


> *Painting depicting, Haseeb Paracha and boys escorting a C-130 carrying some very sensitive cargo in May 1998.*
> 
> View attachment 717159



The story: 









When Mountains Move: The Story of Chagai


Rai Muhammad Saleh Azam Pakistan crossed the nuclear threshold to become a declared nuclear weapons state on 28 May 1998 after it ...




thepakistaninationalist.blogspot.com







When Mountains Move – The Story of Chagai


.

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## araz

StructE said:


> The U.S. Air Force’s F-16 Replacement Plan Is Taking Shape
> 
> 
> In comments made to the Defense Writers Group, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Charles Q. Brown explained that the Air Force would like a new, from-scratch fighter to replace the F-16 with wha
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.realcleardefense.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In comments made to the Defense Writers Group, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Charles Q. Brown explained that the Air Force would like a new, from-scratch fighter to replace the F-16 with what seems to be capabilities somewhere in between the F-16 and the F-35. “Now, I will also tell you I don’t think that everybody’s going to exactly agree with what I say,” Brown explained. “But I want to actually have a starting point as a point of departure, a point of dialogue.”
> 
> Brown elaborated on the design, saying that it would tentatively be categorized as a 4.5 or 5-minus generation fighter, Breaking Defense reported.


Its that dirty F word. Finances baby. I think the US has realized that the F35 will have to be used selectively. They want to save up on the 22 and 35s flight hours mainly due to high cost of running them so want to rely on something else. Whether it is a more advanced F16 or a single engined F18 look alike needs to be seen. And people are still asking for FMS.
A


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## MIRauf

StructE said:


> The U.S. Air Force’s F-16 Replacement Plan Is Taking Shape
> 
> 
> In comments made to the Defense Writers Group, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Charles Q. Brown explained that the Air Force would like a new, from-scratch fighter to replace the F-16 with wha
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.realcleardefense.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In comments made to the Defense Writers Group, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Charles Q. Brown explained that the Air Force would like a new, from-scratch fighter to replace the F-16 with what seems to be capabilities somewhere in between the F-16 and the F-35. “Now, I will also tell you I don’t think that everybody’s going to exactly agree with what I say,” Brown explained. “But I want to actually have a starting point as a point of departure, a point of dialogue.”
> 
> Brown elaborated on the design, saying that it would tentatively be categorized as a 4.5 or 5-minus generation fighter, Breaking Defense reported.




Likely be a Boeing Program, it's Pentagon's way of almost equally distributing work to more then one contractor / builder. Let's see what Boeing comes up with, it be very interesting. At the end of the day, it's the war machines that drives to usher in new techs here in the good 'ol USA.

It's not just Finances, LockMart has F-35, what does Boeing has ? F-15EX / F-18 E/F, Boeing needs a new product to sell to USAF in hundreds to keep people employed, shareholders happy.

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## Clairvoyant

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Why not F15-EX or f16V. Won't it be a waste of useful dollars



A clean sheet design would take a couple of years to come off the drawing board then needs to be tested so realistically speaking it will take atleast a decade for the fighter to come into service.. 

Their main argument against the F.16 is that it doesn't have an open architecture so software updates take time. Just wondering wouldn't it be better to build such an F.16.

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## Raja Porus

Clairvoyant said:


> A clean sheet design would take a couple of years to come off the drawing board then needs to be tested so realistically speaking it will take atleast a decade for the fighter to come into service..
> 
> Their main argument against the F.16 is that it doesn't have an open architecture so software updates take time. Just wondering wouldn't it be better to build such an F.16.


Exactly,they can bring about some structural reforms to either of the platforms according to their "new" requirements. After a decade their role will be quite limited for many countries will have fifth gen fighters. So its not worth the time and money


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## StructE

araz said:


> Its that dirty F word. Finances baby. I think the US has realized that the F35 will have to be used selectively. They want to save up on the 22 and 35s flight hours mainly due to high cost of running them so want to rely on something else. Whether it is a more advanced F16 or a single engined F18 look alike needs to be seen. And people are still asking for FMS.
> A


Seems like a combination of everything, finances, mission requirements, limited practical use of stealth tech and limited availability of stealth platforms, etc etc.


Clairvoyant said:


> A clean sheet design would take a couple of years to come off the drawing board then needs to be tested so realistically speaking it will take atleast a decade for the fighter to come into service..
> 
> Their main argument against the F.16 is that it doesn't have an open architecture so software updates take time. Just wondering wouldn't it be better to build such an F.16.


Design process will be quite different compared to what it used to be, if they opt for a new design, you may see prototype towards the end of 2022.

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## ziaulislam

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Why not F15-EX or f16V. Won't it be a waste of useful dollars


F16 is abit short legged
They want something with longer legs

F16 was built around an engine of 100-120kn

The f35 engine is 180kn

They probably want something with 30-35% more range which f16 may not provide
F15 is too big they want something cheaper

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## Trailer23

Has the F-21 (F-16 on steroids) any consideration for the USAF. I mean as far as India is concerened - its a dead-stick that won't ever happen.

I'm just wondering (when) India goes for something - like more Rafales or the F-15EX, *will Lockheed Martin just scrap the F-21* entirely?*

*...and just so that we're clear, this is in no way relating to the PAF.

Obviously the F-21 has that F-35 DNA that we've heard about, but bear in mind - it'll have the same GE & P&W engines that are supposed to be used by the new-70/21 variants.


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## Incog_nito

Basel said:


> In current senerio it will be big win if PAF can secure SLEP & possibly "V" upgrade for it's F-16s.



I'm sure PAF is in negotiation with the USA over some used ex-USAF F-16 A/Bs with MLU-4 upgrades.

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## aliyusuf

We won't be getting anything from the US without acquiescing to certain strings which would be detrimental to national interests.


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## Raja Porus



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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> Has the F-21 (F-16 on steroids) any consideration for the USAF. I mean as far as India is concerened - its a dead-stick that won't ever happen.
> 
> I'm just wondering (when) India goes for something - like more Rafales or the F-15EX, *will Lockheed Martin just scrap the F-21* entirely?*
> 
> *...and just so that we're clear, this is in no way relating to the PAF.
> 
> Obviously the F-21 has that F-35 DNA that we've heard about, but bear in mind - it'll have the same GE & P&W engines that are supposed to be used by the new-70/21 variants.


My guess is USA would want a new design and around 500 in numbers built around f35 engine

Something 33% bigger f16b70 but smaller then f15

They may end up just buying f16


aliyusuf said:


> We won't be getting anything from the US without acquiescing to certain strings which would be detrimental to national interests.


Best case senrio is upgrade package

I doubt we will get anything that can scratch india


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## Metal 0-1

ziaulislam said:


> F15 is too big they want something cheaper


F-15 EX is will replace older variants of Eagle. They just lack stealth feature they are pretty much 5th Gen. USAF is planning to use F-15 EX with their 5th Gen platforms atleast till 60-70s.


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## Basel

ziaulislam said:


> My guess is USA would want a new design and around 500 in numbers built around f35 engine
> 
> Something 33% bigger f16b70 but smaller then f15
> 
> They may end up just buying f16
> 
> Best case senrio is upgrade package
> 
> I doubt we will get anything that can scratch india



LM already have tested so many tech on F-16 and have F-16 XL design to make bigger F-16, if customer wants bigger F-16.


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## Raja Porus



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## aliyusuf

ziaulislam said:


> Best case senrio is upgrade package
> 
> I doubt we will get anything that can scratch india


Not likely under the current circumstances. Strategic lines have been drawn and doctrines finalized. We are currently in opposing camps and I don't see any changes to that in the foreseeable future.

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## Raja Porus



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## syed_yusuf

Paf as should have acquired larger number b52,+ when it had an opportunity. Now it is too late.

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## SQ8

syed_yusuf said:


> Paf as should have acquired larger number b52,+ when it had an opportunity. Now it is too late.


Unfortunately, PAF’s procurement isn’t its own choice. The paucity of funds and diversion during earthquake followed by Asif Zardari destroyed those plans.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> Unfortunately, PAF’s procurement isn’t its own choice. The paucity of funds and diversion during earthquake followed by Asif Zardari destroyed those plans.


It's remarkable how this one particular family managed to dog PAF procurements for decades, e.g., if not for ZAB triggering 1965, the PAF was likely on track to replacing its F-86s with F-5s, if not for BB/NS's antics in the 1990s, the PAF could've gotten Mirage 2000/-5s, and so on.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's remarkable how this one particular family managed to dog PAF procurements for decades, e.g., if not for ZAB triggering 1965, the PAF was likely on track to replacing its F-86s with F-5s, if not for BB/NS's antics in the 1990s, the PAF could've gotten Mirage 2000/-5s, and so on.


The people like their elites and so what can one say. Still a tribal society.

Lockmart is looking for engineers for its next generation AD - interested?

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## Raider 21

SQ8 said:


> The people like their elites and so what can one say. Still a tribal society.
> 
> Lockmart is looking for engineers for its next generation AD - interested?


I would be. I liked working with Lockmart.

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## JamD

SQ8 said:


> The people like their elites and so what can one say. Still a tribal society.
> 
> Lockmart is looking for engineers for its next generation AD - interested?


Somehow managed to get to an interview then shot down within 10 seconds for not being a US citizen. Fun while it lasted lol.

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## SQ8

Raider 21 said:


> I would be. I liked working with Lockmart.


Came on LinkedIn, you should search it up. Its for the next gen ABM.


JamD said:


> Somehow managed to get to an interview then shot down within 10 seconds for not being a US citizen. Fun while it lasted lol.


Yeah - you need the security clearance. But if you become one they will gladly take you.

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## Raider 21

JamD said:


> Somehow managed to get to an interview then shot down within 10 seconds for not being a US citizen. Fun while it lasted lol.


Seen some non US citizens there. If they want you, as in really want you.....they'll move mountains to get you in.

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## SQ8

Raider 21 said:


> Seen some non US citizens there. If they want you, as in really want you.....they'll move mountains to get you in.


Not if you are from countries suspected of espionage or against American interests. The odd european or Korean maybe - but a Pakistani citizen is highly unlikely.

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## Raider 21

SQ8 said:


> Not if you are from countries suspected of espionage or against American interests. The odd european or Korean maybe - but a Pakistani citizen is highly unlikely.


I'm aware. I have seen numerous ones. They are a lot more strict with Indians even though there are lots of them. Plenty of Chinese as well. Pakistanis are there and in very good positions. 

The goal is to somehow secure a residency status and get clearances. And if there is a specialised skill set then they'll find a way to take you. Ronald Felix is a good example, USAF found good use of him.


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## ghazi52

In hardly any other technical area does safety plays such an important role as in aviation. By keeping both hands off the controls this PAF pilot is visually letting the crew chief know he isn't touching any system ... 


An essential display of TQM ( Total Quality Management ).

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## Reichmarshal

the wing cmd. looks like his plane is attached to a catapult and is waiting for it to launch him in the air.

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## GriffinsRule

ghazi52 said:


> In hardly any other technical area does safety plays such an important role as in aviation. By keeping both hands off the controls this PAF pilot is visually letting the crew chief know he isn't touching any system ...
> 
> 
> An essential display of TQM ( Total Quality Management ).
> 
> View attachment 719143


How most parents sit in the passenger seat when their kids are driving

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## ziaulislam

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's remarkable how this one particular family managed to dog PAF procurements for decades, e.g., if not for ZAB triggering 1965, the PAF was likely on track to replacing its F-86s with F-5s, if not for BB/NS's antics in the 1990s, the PAF could've gotten Mirage 2000/-5s, and so on.


If not for ZAB we wouldn't have had 1971 or 1970s sociliasm disaster ..
ZAB is the most influential and consequential leader pakistan has seen..and like all of our great villans he is a national hero post death..

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ziaulislam said:


> If not for ZAB we wouldn't have had 1971 or 1970s sociliasm disaster ..
> ZAB is the most influential and consequential leader pakistan has seen..and like all of our great villans he is a national hero post death..


One might argue, if not for ZAB, we wouldn't have had 1965 and the resulting drop in our ties with the US. @SQ8

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> One might argue, if not for ZAB, we wouldn't have had 1965 and the resulting drop in our ties with the US. @SQ8


Plenty of what if’s - after all, Acdre Mansoor Shah writes on Zia’s Nephew claiming that his uncle’s real ploy with the extreme “Islamization” was to get the population so fed up with the maddened clergy that he could wipe them off by military action and rid Pakistan of them once and for all without much backlash.

Either way, we have 75 F-16’s and that is that.

On the other thread however, it seems we may be misinterpreting the ACM. If he is stating that the PAF will be a 5th gen AirForce by 2047 - it either implies fully operational 5th gen assets or is it the unlikely outcome of being a mostly 5th AF?
So maybe the Vipers(pretty much past their useful life by next decade) gone along with the F-7’s and perhaps Mirages too.
What would be left is what is interesting. After all, the oldest JF-17s are now nearing 12 years in operational service.

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## Raja Porus

Courtesy:USAF

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## ziaulislam

SQ8 said:


> Plenty of what if’s - after all, Acdre Mansoor Shah writes on Zia’s Nephew claiming that his uncle’s real ploy with the extreme “Islamization” was to get the population so fed up with the maddened clergy that he could wipe them off by military action and rid Pakistan of them once and for all without much backlash.
> 
> Either way, we have 75 F-16’s and that is that.
> 
> On the other thread however, it seems we may be misinterpreting the ACM. If he is stating that the PAF will be a 5th gen AirForce by 2047 - it either implies fully operational 5th gen assets or is it the unlikely outcome of being a mostly 5th AF?
> So maybe the Vipers(pretty much past their useful life by next decade) gone along with the F-7’s and perhaps Mirages too.
> What would be left is what is interesting. After all, the oldest JF-17s are now nearing 12 years in operational service.


My guess is PAF will look for life extention kit to stretch f16 till 2040
Without that life extention f16 will be done by 2030

I doubt we are getting new f16..seems stick works and afghanistan isnt really on usa top pirority anymore

However, if usa withdraws suddenly and then wants to keep status quo in afgjanistan via third party something might happen but unlike what people think i doubt we can do anything to force afghans to stop fighting


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> Plenty of what if’s - after all, Acdre Mansoor Shah writes on Zia’s Nephew claiming that his uncle’s real ploy with the extreme “Islamization” was to get the population so fed up with the maddened clergy that he could wipe them off by military action and rid Pakistan of them once and for all without much backlash.
> 
> Either way, we have 75 F-16’s and that is that.
> 
> On the other thread however, it seems we may be misinterpreting the ACM. If he is stating that the PAF will be a 5th gen AirForce by 2047 - it either implies fully operational 5th gen assets or is it the unlikely outcome of being a mostly 5th AF?
> So maybe the Vipers(pretty much past their useful life by next decade) gone along with the F-7’s and perhaps Mirages too.
> What would be left is what is interesting. After all, the oldest JF-17s are now nearing 12 years in operational service.


In listening to the ARY report, it seems the CAS indeed said (along the lines of), "the PAF will transition into an all-next-generation air force by 2047." If so, then this isn't new info. It's actually a part of Vision 2047 (*LINK*).

Basically, it's not just an issue of switching over to all NGFAs by 1947 (which is now a goal), but being self-sufficient in sourcing said NGFAs.

So, if I'm interpreting this right, by 2047 the PAF should be able to buy its fighters, engines, radars, missiles, etc -- everything -- from Pakistan, and not rely on anyone else. However, the PAF is looking at an off-the-shelf fighter, so it'll be interesting to see if it goes for J-10CE or waits it out for the J-35.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> In listening to the ARY report, it seems the CAS indeed said (along the lines of), "the PAF will transition into an all-next-generation air force by 2047." If so, then this isn't new info. It's actually a part of Vision 2047 (*LINK*).
> 
> Basically, it's not just an issue of switching over to all NGFAs by 1947 (which is now a goal), but being self-sufficient in sourcing said NGFAs.
> 
> So, if I'm interpreting this right, by 2047 the PAF should be able to buy its fighters, engines, radars, missiles, etc -- everything -- from Pakistan, and not rely on anyone else. However, the PAF is looking at an off-the-shelf fighter, so it'll be interesting to see if it goes for J-10CE or waits it out for the J-35.


Keeping in mind that all of this is also 8 ACM’s out. So the consistency of vision and quality of leadership is a very high demand.

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## TsAr

SQ8 said:


> Keeping in mind that all of this is also 8 ACM’s out. So the consistency of vision and quality of leadership is a very high demand.


Plus political and economic stability, lets hope we do not have another Zardari like era.

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## Reichmarshal

ziaulislam said:


> If not for ZAB we wouldn't have had 1971 or 1970s sociliasm disaster ..
> ZAB is the most influential and consequential leader pakistan has seen..and like all of our great villans he is a national hero post death..



Had it not been for Bhuttos disasterious handling of our foreign policy and at the same time egging ayub to go to war with india we would not have had the disaster of 65 let alone 71.
Once bhutto was in London ( pre 71) he went to see sikander Mirza n sikander mirza asked him "zulfi why u dident stop ayub Khan from going to war with india" and bhutto replied " how else would I have weakened his grip on power." This comming from a man who use to call ayub dadie.

He was a self centered snake who dident even stop at dismembering Pakistan just to get into power.
Wt goes around comes around n he along with everyone responsible for dismembering Pakistan met very painful deaths along with their offsprings.

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## Reichmarshal

Another thing after we had wiped out muktibahini (as PA was conducting mopping up opps by sep 71). India was down right afraid of getting into a direct confrontation with Pakistan n hence moved for a ceasefire resolution at the un but bhutto knowing fully well that in such an eventuality will only strengthen the position of yahya n would make it next to impossible to get into power.
So he did the drama of tearing that resolution at the un general assembly n walking away.

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## SQ8

Either way folks , lets stick to the Viper - we have 75 of them, they work and are proven. Whether we get new ones or not is too much of a hyperbole at this stage.

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## ziaulislam

Reichmarshal said:


> Had it not been for Bhuttos disasterious handling of our foreign policy and at the same time egging ayub to go to war with india we would not have had the disaster of 65 let alone 71.
> Once bhutto was in London ( pre 71) he went to see sikander Mirza n sikander mirza asked him "zulfi why u dident stop ayub Khan from going to war with india" and bhutto replied " how else would I have weakened his grip on power." He use to call ayub dadie.
> 
> He was a self centered snake who dident even stop at dismembering Pakistan just to get into power.
> Wt goes around comes around n he along with everyone responsible for dismembering Pakistan met very painful deaths along with their offsprings.


yes surprising co incidence that all three leaders of Pakistan Bangladesh and india in 1971 drama got killed


SQ8 said:


> Either way folks , lets stick to the Viper - we have 75 of them, they work and are proven. Whether we get new ones or not is too much of a hyperbole at this stage.


13 Jordanians are on last leg and will be retired soon after *2025-27*

44 MLUs will last for another 4000 hrs from MLU approx. *2032-35*

the 18 new ones may well last well upto* 2045(30-35 yrs/8000hrs)*

i think this how they will be retried since, *i doubt we will ever get the aim 120D or aim 9x or any stand* *off/antiship weapons* for f16s making them pretty much obsolete after 2030 when india will be fielding askra mk2 & meteor & may be even aim 120 D (if they acquire f18)

we loved the sabers but they got obsolete ..f16s without a update which isnt visible even in most optimistic scenario(pakistan managing the afghan conflict) mean at best they will be relevant till 2030/have a short life left

i think PAF will mostly be j10/jf17/azm force after 2030 a fully eastern force

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## ziaulislam

trump was radicle, if we couldn't get f16 in his time, i doubt we will be able to get them later since the establishment has long moved especially after 2019 to provide pakistan with any thing, and pakistan itself is no longer desperate

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## Trailer23

ziaulislam said:


> My guess is PAF will look for life extention kit to stretch f16 till 2040
> Without that life extention f16 will be done by 2030


Be it Life Extension Kit or MLU..., you can be sure the US will make us work for it.


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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> Be it Life Extension Kit or MLU..., you can be sure the US will make us work for it.


which is why i think it wont happen
MLU kit may extend its flying life but without new gen weapons it would be a "somasa" just like Egyptians f16

it was top of the line in 2010 with aim120C and will be till may be 2030 but afterwards AESA & long range AAMs will be the norm and anything less will be obsolete (i.e any thing less then f16 V+ aim 9x+aim120D will be obsolete)


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## baqai

Are we eliminating any chances of us getting block 72s?


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## Imran Khan

baqai said:


> Are we eliminating any chances of us getting block 72s?


there was any such chance in first place ?

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## GriffinsRule

There is always a chance and policies change. Did many people think we would get F-16s after Pressler Amendment in the 90s?

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## araz

GriffinsRule said:


> There is always a chance and policies change. Did many people think we would get F-16s after Pressler Amendment in the 90s?


Interesting thought. I think it is fair to say there are still chances.
Firstly US is still entangled/positioned in Afghanistan. In order to placate the Taliban it still needs Pakistan to intercede(irrespective of the debate whether Pak has influence over the Talibans or not). This is a dangerous game and we should stay out of it barring organizing meetings.
Secondly the release of FMS. I think given current fiscal strain on US it is extremely unlikely we will get anything. This is what we want but wont get. The US has a history of being a bully and it wont change its colours now.
On payment. PAF has actually not been denied F16s but US financial incentives are/what have not been apprived. Technically you can still request a sale asking US to loan you the money for the buy and then pay on delivery. The elephant on the room here is whether the PAF has the reserves or wants to spend them.
Armaments. In the current environment, 9X and 120C7/D have become imperative but the real question is whether the US would release those or not.
Lastly the utility of the 16s. I don't think anyone denies the utility and the fear factor of the 16s in the hearts of our adversaries. However 16s will have significant disadvantages with lack of HOBS, LRAAAMs. SOWs. The block 3 and even J10s if we acquire them will come with all the frills bells and whistles, along with facilities to integrate local weapons. This makes the prospect of spending money on the 16s illogical even at the cost of spending to establish infrastructure and training for the J10s( I still maintain we will run with block 3 plus current 16s plusM3/5s till 2025/30). So where do we go? Much as I hate to say it, it maybe time to say goodbye to the 16s UNLESS the US comes in to spoil the party and sell new and old one at subsidized rates. This I think is where the tussle is and we need to see who blinks first.
A

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## baqai

Jahan khuwab wahan HBL lol



Imran Khan said:


> there was any such chance in first place ?

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## GriffinsRule

araz said:


> Interesting thought. I think it is fair to say there are still chances.
> Firstly US is still entangled/positioned in Afghanistan. In order to placate the Taliban it still needs Pakistan to intercede(irrespective of the debate whether Pak has influence over the Talibans or not). This is a dangerous game and we should stay out of it barring organizing meetings.
> Secondly the release of FMS. I think given current fiscal strain on US it is extremely unlikely we will get anything. This is what we want but wont get. The US has a history of being a bully and it wont change its colours now.
> On payment. PAF has actually not been denied F16s but US financial incentives are/what have not been apprived. Technically you can still request a sale asking US to loan you the money for the buy and then pay on delivery. The elephant on the room here is whether the PAF has the reserves or wants to spend them.
> Armaments. In the current environment, 9X and 120C7/D have become imperative but the real question is whether the US would release those or not.
> Lastly the utility of the 16s. I don't think anyone denies the utility and the fear factor of the 16s in the hearts of our adversaries. However 16s will have significant disadvantages with lack of HOBS, LRAAAMs. SOWs. The block 3 and even J10s if we acquire them will come with all the frills bells and whistles, along with facilities to integrate local weapons. This makes the prospect of spending money on the 16s illogical even at the cost of spending to establish infrastructure and training for the J10s( I still maintain we will run with block 3 plus current 16s plusM3/5s till 2025/30). So where do we go? Much as I hate to say it, it maybe time to say goodbye to the 16s UNLESS the US comes in to spoil the party and sell new and old one at subsidized rates. This I think is where the tussle is and we need to see who blinks first.
> A


With the number of platforms Pakistan needs to replace, it will gladly take new F-16s and upgrade its existing ones in 2030 even, given that we will have the B52s with us into the 2050s.


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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> Interesting thought. I think it is fair to say there are still chances.
> Firstly US is still entangled/positioned in Afghanistan. In order to placate the Taliban it still needs Pakistan to intercede(irrespective of the debate whether Pak has influence over the Talibans or not). This is a dangerous game and we should stay out of it barring organizing meetings.
> Secondly the release of FMS. I think given current fiscal strain on US it is extremely unlikely we will get anything. This is what we want but wont get. The US has a history of being a bully and it wont change its colours now.
> On payment. PAF has actually not been denied F16s but US financial incentives are/what have not been apprived. Technically you can still request a sale asking US to loan you the money for the buy and then pay on delivery. The elephant on the room here is whether the PAF has the reserves or wants to spend them.
> Armaments. In the current environment, 9X and 120C7/D have become imperative but the real question is whether the US would release those or not.
> Lastly the utility of the 16s. I don't think anyone denies the utility and the fear factor of the 16s in the hearts of our adversaries. However 16s will have significant disadvantages with lack of HOBS, LRAAAMs. SOWs. The block 3 and even J10s if we acquire them will come with all the frills bells and whistles, along with facilities to integrate local weapons. This makes the prospect of spending money on the 16s illogical even at the cost of spending to establish infrastructure and training for the J10s( I still maintain we will run with block 3 plus current 16s plusM3/5s till 2025/30). So where do we go? Much as I hate to say it, it maybe time to say goodbye to the 16s UNLESS the US comes in to spoil the party and sell new and old one at subsidized rates. This I think is where the tussle is and we need to see who blinks first.
> A


F16 will be useless beyond 2025 without aim120d/9x..PAF knows this and hence f16 wont be procured

The unique situation of 2005 is unlikely to ever reoccur

USA will simply leave afghanistan like it did in 1990s

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## ziaulislam

GriffinsRule said:


> With the number of platforms Pakistan needs to replace, it will gladly take new F-16s and upgrade its existing ones in 2030 even, given that we will have the B52s with us into the 2050s.


even the LCA will outmatch the f16 in 2035 time frame

if PAF will not get any F16s upgrades then running them beyond 2040 will simply be impractical, the same how we retire prematurely other US platforms when we didnt had any support

this isnt the french mirage where we had full independence and support from the french


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## Trailer23

A frame from the '50 Years of Mirage' Documentary.

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## GriffinsRule

ziaulislam said:


> even the LCA will outmatch the f16 in 2035 time frame
> 
> if PAF will not get any F16s upgrades then running them beyond 2040 will simply be impractical, the same how we retire prematurely other US platforms when we didnt had any support
> 
> this isnt the french mirage where we had full independence and support from the french


If PAF is getting updates for the F-16 even now, why would it not continue to get them in the future if nothing else changes? This argument does not make any sense as I foresee PAF flying the F-16s for a long time, along with most of the countries that are already operators as well.
Even USAF will be flying them into the 2050s as the SLEP will give the fighter a 12,000hr life airframe.









F-16 Service Life Extension Program a ‘great deal’ for Department of Defense, taxpayers


An Air Force Thunderbird jet is the first of what will be roughly 300 refurbished C and D model F-16’s that will roll off the shop floor of the 573rd Aircraft Maintenance Squadron here after receiving



www.afmc.af.mil





And if PAF can extend the life of the Mirages 2 folds, I am sure the better built F-16 will have no trouble serving for 50-60 years easily as well.

The part about the LCA is a good joke though

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## GriffinsRule

The thread by Windy on the ADF got deleted while I was mid-post but the reason it was a picture of the MLU bird and not an ADF version is also due to the antenna in the base of the tail which shows a bulge, which was clearly missing from the jet in the hanger but is prominent in the ADF F-16s.

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## ziaulislam

GriffinsRule said:


> If PAF is getting updates for the F-16 even now, why would it not continue to get them in the future if nothing else changes? This argument does not make any sense as I foresee PAF flying the F-16s for a long time, along with most of the countries that are already operators as well.
> Even USAF will be flying them into the 2050s as the SLEP will give the fighter a 12,000hr life airframe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 Service Life Extension Program a ‘great deal’ for Department of Defense, taxpayers
> 
> 
> An Air Force Thunderbird jet is the first of what will be roughly 300 refurbished C and D model F-16’s that will roll off the shop floor of the 573rd Aircraft Maintenance Squadron here after receiving
> 
> 
> 
> www.afmc.af.mil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And if PAF can extend the life of the Mirages 2 folds, I am sure the better built F-16 will have no trouble serving for 50-60 years easily as well.
> 
> The part about the LCA is a good joke though


Yes by 2025 USA F16 will have

Next gen antiship missiles
AIM 260
small diameter bombs
anti radiation bombs
aim 9x (& the newer next gen short range AAM)
AESA radar and modern jammers
our f16s will have aim 9M and aim 120C
by 2030 aim 120c will be like todays aim 7 sparrow. Basically a "samosa" just like in Egyptian airforce block 52s
hence it doesnt make sense to spend billions of $$ for investment that will be obsolete by 2030/ 5yrs after induction..as we surely arent getting aim120d or aim9x

this isnt 2005, when aim 120C was start of the art..

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## GriffinsRule

ziaulislam said:


> Yes by 2025 USA F16 will have
> 
> Next gen antiship missiles
> AIM 260
> small diameter bombs
> anti radiation bombs
> aim 9x (& the newer next gen short range AAM)
> AESA radar and modern jammers
> our f16s will have aim 9M and aim 120C
> by 2030 aim 120c will be like todays aim 7 sparrow. Basically a "samosa" just like in Egyptian airforce block 52s
> hence it doesnt make sense to spend billions of $$ for investment that will be obsolete by 2030/ 5yrs after induction..as we surely arent getting aim120d or aim9x
> 
> this isnt 2005, when aim 120C was start of the art..


Or maybe we will have all those weapons integrated and in the arsenal as well. No one knows what the future holds.


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## Windjammer

GriffinsRule said:


> The thread by Windy on the ADF got deleted while I was mid-post but the reason it was a picture of the MLU bird and not an ADF version is also due to the antenna in the base of the tail which shows a bulge, which was clearly missing from the jet in the hanger but is prominent in the ADF F-16s.
> 
> View attachment 720076


Actually i deleted that thread my self as the subject couldn't be confirmed....although that picture was a little blurry, however another prominent feature in the ADF version the antenna bars under the chin.

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## Trailer23

*Anatolian Eagle 2016 - No. 11 Squadron (Arrows)*​
Though the exercise is 5 Years old, but someone uploaded it last year. You'd think these Media guys would have a tripod. Footage is constantly shaking. Anyways...

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## khanasifm

Bvr capable paf 19 sqn, question, It’s was disclosed in paf day program visit to 19 sqn Mahaaz program  

air defense variant was basically block 15 with bvr enhancement which killed f-20 tigershak

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## ziaulislam

GriffinsRule said:


> Or maybe we will have all those weapons integrated and in the arsenal as well. No one knows what the future holds.


expect india to show serious resentment and few congress committee hearing on it as well..
USA wouldnt provide weapons to taiwan in fear of china, and we are talkign about india, the next golden goose


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## Trailer23

We've been debating 'bout the Falcons for..., well, forever now.

We all need to keep in mind that every ACM who comes in - comes with a F-16 background and you can be certain that he'll want more F-16's - its just the situation (at that point in time) that prevents them for going for them.

I agree that (now), an F-16 without AESA, Aim9X and Aim-120D - are pretty much worthless especially if we're seeking brand-spanking new ones. 'Cause an B-72 without those add-ons is just another Iraqi/Egyptian F-16.

Wish there was a way to make the JF-17 bigger, just like General Dynamics/Mitsubishi did with the F-2.

Fact of the matter is unless we acquire a 5th Generation jet like..., say, the J-35 - you can be sure the F-16 will always ben in conversation

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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> We've been debating 'bout the Falcons for..., well, forever now.
> 
> We all need to keep in mind that every ACM who comes in - comes with a F-16 background and you can be certain that he'll want more F-16's - its just the situation (at that point in time) that prevents them for going for them.
> 
> I agree that (now), an F-16 without AESA, Aim9X and Aim-120D - are pretty much worthless especially if we're seeking brand-spanking new ones. '*Cause an B-72 without those add-ons is just another Iraqi/Egyptian F-16.*
> 
> Wish there was a way to make the JF-17 bigger, just like General Dynamics/Mitsubishi did with the F-2.
> 
> Fact of the matter is unless we acquire a 5th Generation jet like..., say, the J-35 - you can be sure the F-16 will always ben in conversation


Except those Egyptians had BVR long before PAF ever did.......had PAF had AIM-7s, there would have easily been 30+ kills. This was quoted by my old man, who flew Vipers during the Soviet Afghan war.

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## Yasser76

Raider 21 said:


> Except those Egyptians had BVR long before PAF ever did.......had PAF had AIM-7s, there would have easily been 30+ kills. This was quoted by my old man, who flew Vipers during the Soviet Afghan war.



Then he would of known about the rule of the target having to land on Pak territory right?

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## hassan1



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## Reichmarshal

no more 16 for PAF.

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## Reichmarshal

......unless they come via EDA


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## FuturePAF

Trailer23 said:


> We've been debating 'bout the Falcons for..., well, forever now.
> 
> We all need to keep in mind that every ACM who comes in - comes with a F-16 background and you can be certain that he'll want more F-16's - its just the situation (at that point in time) that prevents them for going for them.
> 
> I agree that (now), an F-16 without AESA, Aim9X and Aim-120D - are pretty much worthless especially if we're seeking brand-spanking new ones. 'Cause an B-72 without those add-ons is just another Iraqi/Egyptian F-16.
> 
> Wish there was a way to make the JF-17 bigger, just like General Dynamics/Mitsubishi did with the F-2.
> 
> Fact of the matter is unless we acquire a 5th Generation jet like..., say, the J-35 - you can be sure the F-16 will always ben in conversation



If we can make the JF-17 lighter (redesigning how its manufactured; 3D printing single metal pieces rather then welding many smaller pieces) and once the WS-19 matured into a 100-120kn engine that allows the JF-17 to be redesigned to allow supercruising, should help improve TWR and Range for minimal cost.

Also we should look at other minor modifications or additions we can put on the JF-17 to make it more capable with the right tactics. Adding a GCAS; Ground collision avoidance system, should allow the JF-17 to fly map of the earth profiles for long range air tot ground strikes. Towed decoys and expendable DRFM decoys, as well as hard kill self protection missiles (as proposed by MBDA, called “HK-DAS”) can be ways to make out small jet competitive against even the most modern of threats like the meteor and long range jammers.

we can also improve the weapons the JF-17 carries to minimize the burden on the fighter and put more on the weapon.

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## Windjammer



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## baqai

Trailer23 said:


> We all need to keep in mind that every ACM who comes in - comes with a F-16 background and you can be certain that he'll want more F-16's - its just the situation (at that point in time) that prevents them for going for them.



i disagree on your logic that a person coming from F-16 background will want F-16, the person who was heading the project when it was launched was none other than AVM Shahid Latif and we all know that he was one of the first people from PAF to fly the F-16's to Pakistan, he had to sacrifice his chance to become COAS just because he didn't wanted to put aside the Thunder program instead of going for procurements from abroad. 

Iss hamam mai sab nangay nahin hain (Shukar Allah ka)


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## Trailer23

baqai said:


> ...he had to sacrifice his chance to become *COAS* just because he didn't wanted to put aside the Thunder program instead of going for procurements from abroad.


You mean ACM.

Yeah, he took a bullet - for the Nation.

But even he knew it was a no brainer. Besides, since he was never in the role of a ACM its truly hard to say what his views would have been had he of been in that position.

You also have to ask the obvious, how many Viper Pilots (in line for ACM) were ever given the task of heading the JF-17 program?


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## Windjammer



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## TOPGUN

Some dumb indians like to laugh at everything not understanding what goes on in a professional air force rather then the shitty unporofessional air force they have get a life guys there is still time don't be a stupid troll for rest of your lives this is a defence forum get educated lolz.

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## SQ8

TOPGUN said:


> Some dumb indians like to laugh at everything not understanding what goes on in a professional air force rather then the shitty unporofessional air force they have get a life guys there is still time don't be a stupid troll for rest of your lives this is a defence forum get educated lolz.


I would never be Indian and underestimate the enemy. There are plenty of professional warfighters in India and it would be at PAF and Pakistani followers detriment as well to think otherwise. PAF has also had “Yes men” political sycophant leadership which had caused it years of ruin just as the IAF may have had it before.
But that should not let it be branded professional or unprofessional solely on that basis.

Wartime performance matters a lot and @airomerix @PanzerKiel @Ark_Angel have explained well(in various posts) the realities of their military in terms of composition, training and funding vis-a-vis their enormous size.
If anything, I would suggest that the PAF was somewhat _surprised_ (in terms of overestimated performance) by the IAF pilots in the air and leadership on the ground.

That doesn’t mean that the IAF hasn’t bandaged its wounds and now is equipping at a lighting footing to make up for its key strategic lackings in EW & COMSEC.

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## nomi007

Anyone have any program video on
*No. 11 Squadron (Pakistan Air Force)*


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## TsAr

baqai said:


> i disagree on your logic that a person coming from F-16 background will want F-16, the person who was heading the project when it was launched was none other than AVM Shahid Latif and we all know that he was one of the first people from PAF to fly the F-16's to Pakistan, he had to sacrifice his chance to become COAS just because he didn't wanted to put aside the Thunder program instead of going for procurements from abroad.
> 
> Iss hamam mai sab nangay nahin hain (Shukar Allah ka)


He also had health concerns and was never in race of ACM

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## TsAr

SQ8 said:


> I would never be Indian and underestimate the enemy. There are plenty of professional warfighters in India and it would be at PAF and Pakistani followers detriment as well to think otherwise. PAF has also had “Yes men” political sycophant leadership which had caused it years of ruin just as the IAF may have had it before.
> But that should not let it be branded professional or unprofessional solely on that basis.
> 
> Wartime performance matters a lot and @airomerix @PanzerKiel @Ark_Angel have explained well(in various posts) the realities of their military in terms of composition, training and funding vis-a-vis their enormous size.
> If anything, I would suggest that the PAF was somewhat _surprised_ (in terms of overestimated performance) by the IAF pilots in the air and leadership on the ground.
> 
> That doesn’t mean that the IAF hasn’t bandaged its wounds and now is equipping at a lighting footing to make up for its key strategic lackings in EW & COMSEC.


27th Feb was a wake up call for IAF and they are already working on their shortcomings. Now how long would it take is anyone's guess, as they also have core issues like political interference and size of force.

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## Readerdefence

Hi by the way shahid Javed was the first squadron leader who has landed his F16 15th January 1983 at PAF base sargodha if I believe so 
can anybody with more knowledge be able to confirm 
thank you


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## Raja Porus



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## Windjammer

Not sure if there's an exercise currently underway or it's from last Anatolian Eagle.








__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1367377105957380096

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## Metal 0-1

Windjammer said:


> Not sure if there's an exercise currently underway or it's from last Anatolian Eagle.
> 
> View attachment 721910
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1367377105957380096


Previous, because it has older Top Gun marking on the left side of nose. While newer markings are plain on the front landing gear bay door.

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## Trailer23

... and if memory serves, the last Anatolian Eagle had JF-17's.

Anatolian Phoenix had No. 9 Sqn (Griffins).

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## ghazi52

*Rehan Siraj*
JtratSpneiuootnafllsorryeh r26ed · 

Commissioned painting depicting Flt Lt Shahid Sikandar Khan, taxiing an F-16A of PAF No 14 Sqn for a CAP mission - April 1987.

11 X 16 inches (unframed) - Watercolors

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## TsAr

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 722985
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Rehan Siraj*
> JtratSpneiuootnafllsorryeh r26ed ·
> 
> Commissioned painting depicting Flt Lt Shahid Sikandar Khan, taxiing an F-16A of PAF No 14 Sqn for a CAP mission - April 1987.
> 
> 11 X 16 inches (unframed) - Watercolors


@Raider 21 your Dad.....


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## airomerix



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## Raider 21

One from over a decade ago....

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## PanzerKiel

Raider 21 said:


> View attachment 723099
> 
> One from over a decade ago....


The two most dependable transport platforms of our country.... One is the F16 itself, the other visible right under the nose of the Viper.... 
.... Potential photo bomb though....

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## Raja Porus

One of the only pictures we have of our Vipers firing something.
Here's a Viper popping off a sidewinder

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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

"Sound of Freedom & Guardian of the sky over Capital City Islamabad"

Preparations to mark Pakistan Day Parade are in full swing.

To commemorate Pakistan Day the 'Armed Forces Pakistan Day Parade' will be held in Islamabad on the 23rd of March with a full dress rehearsal planned for the 21st of March.

P.C :- Ahsan Riaz

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## ghazi52

Griffin inverted over the Capital.

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## Signalian

Raider 21 said:


> View attachment 723099
> 
> One from over a decade ago....


Subhan Allah  The hangar.
Training on bombing sorties?


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## Raider 21

SQ8 said:


> 725 was PAF fault leading to Turbine failure, not a mfg defect - I know the pilot intimately.
> 723 might be turbine failure.


Learned today he passed away due to COVID. May his soul rest in peace. My dad was supposed to fly 725 that day, but the aircraft was taken by Nadeem Anjum (Late).

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## aziqbal

Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un 

May Allah SWT have mercy on the soul of Wing Commander Noman Akram 

Can anyone confirm the reason for the crash, was it the electrical lines? 

and was it a Block C/D 52+ that went down?

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## SQ8

Raider 21 said:


> Learned today he passed away due to COVID. May his soul rest in peace. My dad was supposed to fly 725 that day, but the aircraft was taken by Nadeem Anjum (Late).


Yes - he was battling it for a month, wonderful man. Son’s a viper pilot too, he gets to carry the name on.

Related but off topic - what do you feel is the percentage of offspring recruits in PAF? I was reading that the trend is also within the USAF of families continuing the profession.

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## Raider 21

SQ8 said:


> Yes - he was battling it for a month, wonderful man. Son’s a viper pilot too, he gets to carry the name on.
> 
> Related but off topic - what do you feel is the percentage of offspring recruits in PAF? I was reading that the trend is also within the USAF of families continuing the profession.


Offspring recruitment in PAF is not very common. Often the officers wish their following generation don't join and pursue other fields. USAF is different. They are a people's air force, not an air force's air force.


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## spectregunship

Raider 21 said:


> Offspring recruitment in PAF is not very common. Often the officers wish their following generation don't join and pursue other fields. USAF is different. They are a people's air force, not an air force's air force.



could you please differentiate / define between people's and airforce's airforce point? for my own clarity


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## Raider 21

spectregunship said:


> could you please differentiate / define between people's and airforce's airforce point? for my own clarity


I will message you about that later. I'm catching a flight

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## Yasser76

MirageBlue said:


> Busting the myth created within Pakistan about it's F-16 pilots...LOL
> 
> Confessions of a Navy F-14 fleet pilot turned F-5 Aggressor



From around 20 years ago. Nice find.....idiot

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## Clairvoyant

MirageBlue said:


> Busting the myth created within Pakistan about it's F-16 pilots...LOL
> 
> Confessions of a Navy F-14 fleet pilot turned F-5 Aggressor




90's was a lost decade for Pakistan airforce as a whole, the F.16's remained grounded for sometime because of lack of spares and on top of that the lack of BVR capability pushed the airforce on the back foot.

They were deprived the Mirage 2000-5 because of politics and lack of money so I'm not surprised that this happened but just wondering why you brought this all up now as the same F.16's gave your airforce a proper beating a couple of years ago.

Looks like the butthurt is still there.

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## The Eagle

Someone needed to dig into some interview from 90s when PAF was really lacking the equipment beside the newly induction of Falcons but not so surprisingly, Indian troll has to forget what happened on 27th Feb, 2019... not too long ago but speaks volume of hurt & pain in there.

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## Yasser76

The Eagle said:


> Someone needed to dig into some interview from 90s when PAF was really lacking the equipment beside the newly induction of Falcons but not so surprisingly, Indian troll has to forget what happened on 27th Feb, 2019... not too long ago but speaks volume of hurt & pain in there.



Yup, it's like MLU/Block 52 upgrade and 6-7 AE/RF exercises since then never happened. Ultimately their SU-30s and MIG-21s found out what our weapons employment on the F-16 was like.....


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## GriffinsRule

I had actually chatted w paco after his interview with the youtube channel. He said F-16s from PAF didn't get into bfm with the F-14s and would call aim-9 shots outside of what he thought should be the weapon engagement zone and exit the area. Sounded like PAF was not very keen on participating but he did say they got kills on the F-7Ps that did get into mock dog fights with them.

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## ghazi52

*ACE of PAF*
tSi5pontshrored ·
*
'Shared by a family member of Shaheed'*

When Wing Commander Nouman Ali Khan went to the grave of WC Noman Akram Shaheed, He sent a text to WC Noman Akram's Cell.

"It was great to meet you again as always"

In an interview, Wing Commander Nouman Ali Khan praised the leadership & fighter flying abilities of Wing Commander Noman Akram Shaheed & added "He always outsmarted me" ...











*Last Run in of WC Nouman Akram Shaheed *

May Allah SWT bless him high ranks in Jannah.

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## krash

The Eagle said:


> Someone needed to dig into some interview from 90s when PAF was really lacking the equipment beside the newly induction of Falcons but not so surprisingly, Indian troll has to forget what happened on 27th Feb, 2019... not too long ago but speaks volume of hurt & pain in there.



I wouldn't give too much credit to that interview either. Other USAF pilots from the same era have very different views. There was an entire thread on it. Along with the fact that the Emirati Pilots he praises in the very next breath were being trained by the Pakistanis. They have no problem hiring Pakistani F-16 pilots for the same USAF aggressor squadrons either.

Remember that F-14 cockpit footage with a placard held up by the pilot against Pakistan? Obviously there is more behind this interview.

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## ghazi52

*Rehan Siraj*
tS6rponsnohredn · 

F-16ADF of PAF 19 Squadron performing aerobatics.

11 x 16 inches (unframed) - Pencil Sketch

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## Windjammer



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## airomerix



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## Raider 21

krash said:


> I wouldn't give too much credit to that interview either. Other USAF pilots from the same era have very different views. There was an entire thread on it.* Along with the fact that the Emirati Pilots he praises in the very next breath were being trained by the Pakistanis.* They have no problem hiring Pakistani F-16 pilots for the same USAF aggressor squadrons either.
> 
> Remember that F-14 cockpit footage with a placard held up by the pilot against Pakistan? Obviously there is more behind this interview.


Yes but those Emiratis were flying Mirage 2000s, and those fighter pilots were trained by the French. The training from the Pakistanis were limited to their FCU-level at the time. OCU-level Pakistani IPs didn't arrive until 1997 onwards (and they have had only 3 since then, none are there presently). 

The USAF Aggressors hired one ex-PAF pilot, but that was an exceptional case. He didn't even get considered in the Middle East. 

Generally from my interaction with USAF, they have been generally positive especially with the F-16 guys. Doesn't make Pakistani fighter pilots sky gods as portrayed back in Pakistan, but gives out a good impression as an organisation.

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## ghazi52

Viper going Supersonic.

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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=122965489763018

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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=177528947323915

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## ghazi52

PAF F-16 Fighting Falcon racing pulses over Islamabad ... 

_ at Parade Ground Islamabad.

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1371521617084448771

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## ghazi52

Today Mig 21 Bison slayer F-16 from No. 11 sq Arrows performed demo over Capital.
Love in Air

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## Trailer23

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1371521617084448771


There is a full footage of this clip. This one is clearly edited with the music. But I'm sure that there is another one on YouTube, but I can't seem to find it.

Can someone post the link, need to FWD it to someone...

@Windjammer @Hodor @Raider 21

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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> There is a full footage of this clip. This one is clearly edited with the music. But I'm sure that there is another one on YouTube, but I can't seem to find it.
> 
> Can someone post the link, need to FWD it to someone...
> 
> @Windjammer @Hodor @Raider 21


Check your PM. Greetings from Abu Dhabi.


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## ghazi52

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2892252904326458

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## ghazi52

Viper Demo PAF

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## Windjammer



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## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 725678


Which footage is this one from?

Is it from the last song by Ali Hamza? Haven't really gone through it frame-by-frame.


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## Clairvoyant

Trailer23 said:


> Which footage is this one from?
> 
> Is it from the last song by Ali Hamza? Haven't really gone through it frame-by-frame.



It's from CJCSC's flight.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1112746909144015

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## Trailer23

Desert Fox 1 said:


> One of the only pictures we have of our Vipers firing something.
> Here's a Viper popping off a sidewinder
> View attachment 723118





Trailer23 said:


> A frame from the '50 Years of Mirage' Documentary.
> 
> View attachment 720074​


Surprisingly, there is footage of it in the new Mirage at 50 Documentary. Not many people picked it up 'cause it happens so fast.

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## airomerix

Bison killer.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

What is a King Snake---a snake that eats Vipers---.

That is what the name of the next non stealth fighter aircraft of the US air force is going to be.

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## Gripen9

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What is a King Snake---a snake that eats Vipers---.
> 
> That is what the name of the next non stealth fighter aircraft of the US air force is going to be.


That looks eerily close to F16XL

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## MastanKhan

Gripen9 said:


> That looks eerily close to F16XL



Hi,

It does---does it not---. US military has found out that its conventional technology is so far ahead of others that it does not need stealth to overcome the adversary.


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## TNT

Why are we wasting precious hours of F16s on prades? Why not just use JF17 and mirages for prades?

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## Irfan Baloch

FuturePAF said:


> I always wondered how the boar got near the runway. Weren’t the runways fenced off?


no. never it was deemed extensive to do and decision makers thought their power of faith will keep boars away.

the similar mentality saw our bases getting back to back attacks during 2000s when TTP and LeJ kjanzeers took over from their boar cousins.

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## ziaulislam

Bossman said:


> Boars were living on the base and in any case fencing is not much help as they can dig under the fence.


We have been using electric wires for boars to guard peanut cultivation for ages and trust we have tons of them..and it works..like really works..

With respect to safety there multiple protocols and simple fuse will do


So if boars are at bases its sheer incompetence there is no other possible explaination

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## araz

Irfan Baloch said:


> no. never it was deemed extensive to do and decision makers thought their power of faith will keep boars away.
> 
> the similar mentality saw our bases getting back to back attacks during 2000s when TTP and LeJ kjanzeers took over from their boar cousins.


I hate this policy of neglect and complacency. Saving 2-300000and lose 400 million worth of stuff (F16 and Erieyes times 3) although in the latter case I gather the Khanazeer walked in through the main door.
A

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## MIRauf

On both cases, Boar and TTP, it wasn't the lack of Fencing, it was lack / lax of parameter patrol.

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## Windjammer

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What is a King Snake---a snake that eats Vipers---.
> 
> That is what the name of the next non stealth fighter aircraft of the US air force is going to be.


Not a good example if US is designing something to destroy it's own achievement rather than other opponents.

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## PanzerKiel

araz said:


> I hate this policy of neglect and complacency. Saving 2-300000and lose 400 million worth of stuff (F16 and Erieyes times 3) although in the latter case I gather the Khanazeer walked in through the main door.
> A


The primary reasons have more to do with the service itself. The ground complement of base defense complement of PAF is not that much trained or equipped as the army which is trained for such tasks. That's why the TTP guys managed to ingress easily. After this incident, army troops were also incorporated in the base defenses.... And in a later incident, the defending army troops were instrumental in repulsing another attack.

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Not a good example if US is designing something to destroy it's own achievement rather than other opponents.





Gripen9 said:


> That looks eerily close to F16XL



Its just a graphic design issued by a the Hushkit aviation blog in collaboration with an aviation expert to guess what the purported F-16 4.5gen replacement might look like.

If someone actually read about it they wouldn’t claim it to be the next generation of US jet.


----------



## araz

PanzerKiel said:


> The primary reasons have more to do with the service itself. The ground complement of base defense complement of PAF is not that much trained or equipped as the army which is trained for such tasks. That's why the TTP guys managed to ingress easily. After this incident, army troops were also incorporated in the base defenses.... And in a later incident, the defending army troops were instrumental in repulsing another attack.


I posted on the basis of news in the media saying the Erieye attacks had inside help. Thinking back it did not say what sort of internal help but I assumed they were ushered in through the main door.
A

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## PanzerKiel

araz said:


> I posted on the basis of news in the media saying the Erieye attacks had inside help. Thinking back it did not say what sort of internal help but I assumed they were ushered in through the main door.
> A


... Here the plot thickens..... Let's stick to this thread...

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## GriffinsRule

Clearest picture I have seen with the IAF kill marking









Pakistan Air Force General Dynamics F-16BM Fighting Falcon - Photo by Rao Muhammad Farrukh - Falcons.PK







www.falcons.pk

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## MastanKhan

Windjammer said:


> Not a good example if US is designing something to destroy it's own achievement rather than other opponents.



You are such a simpleton,

You don' even know what you are saying---.

When you are shooting for the stars---many a great achievements are pummeled in the process.

If it was not for those great achievements---they would not reach a higher plateau.

The americans are so far ahead of anyone that their 5th gen aircraft have no match as of now---.

Their 4.5 gen aircraft can compete and beat any adversary.

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## MastanKhan

araz said:


> I posted on the basis of news in the media saying the Erieye attacks had inside help. Thinking back it did not say what sort of internal help but I assumed they were ushered in through the main door.
> A



Hi,

Regardless of our differences---at the end of the day---you will agree with most of the stuff I had stated over the years.


PanzerKiel said:


> The primary reasons have more to do with the service itself. The ground complement of base defense complement of PAF is not that much trained or equipped as the army which is trained for such tasks. That's why the TTP guys managed to ingress easily. After this incident, army troops were also incorporated in the base defenses.... And in a later incident, the defending army troops were instrumental in repulsing another attack.



Hi,

That is why we needed a special security force for the air bases and GHQ and other sensitive installations.

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## Windjammer

MastanKhan said:


> You are such a simpleton,
> 
> You don' even know what you are saying---.
> 
> When you are shooting for the stars---many a great achievements are pummeled in the process.
> 
> If it was not for those great achievements---they would not reach a higher plateau.
> 
> The americans are so far ahead of anyone that their 5th gen aircraft have no match as of now---.
> 
> Their 4.5 gen aircraft can compete and beat any adversary.


Yes mighty Mastan sahib, we are not privileged to sit in the board meetings of LM or Boeing to know the inside story.....let me remind you what you said earlier...



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What is a King Snake---a snake that eats Vipers---.
> 
> That is what the name of the next non stealth fighter aircraft of the US air force is going to be.


Now tell me was the Viper created to eat the Phantom or Hornet produced to destroy the Tomcat.
Newer designs may have much more capabilities but it's wrong to say they are purposely created to finish others.....while some countries are acquiring F-35s to replace say F-16s in their inventory but there are other countries who still prefer and are ordering the Vipers.


----------



## Irfan Baloch

Windjammer said:


> Not a good example if US is designing something to destroy it's own achievement rather than other opponents.


but its true. dubbed F36 aka Kingsnake
their stuff their names.

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## Windjammer

Irfan Baloch said:


> but its true. dubbed F36 aka Kingsnake
> their stuff their names.


True but did they name it that just because it is meant to eat/kill Vipers aka F-16s.
If anything it seems to be based on F-16XL.

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## ACE OF HEARTS

This Is the F-36 Kingsnake. It Could Be the Air Force's Next Fighter Jet.


Meet the new, non-stealthy fighter that may replace the F-16.




www.popularmechanics.com





"A kingsnake attacking a western diamondback rattlesnake, a member of the viper family".

"As for the F-36’s name, kingsnakes are North American snakes that live up to 30 years, which bodes well for the F-36’s service life. Kingsnakes are so named because they have a habit of eating other snakes—a fitting moniker for a fighter designed to replace the Viper."

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## truthseeker2010

GriffinsRule said:


> Clearest picture I have seen with the IAF kill marking
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Air Force General Dynamics F-16BM Fighting Falcon - Photo by Rao Muhammad Farrukh - Falcons.PK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.falcons.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 726090



Thats a MKI kill...........


MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> What is a King Snake---a snake that eats Vipers---.
> 
> That is what the name of the next non stealth fighter aircraft of the US air force is going to be.



Or it might be the one that was intended to replace the viper (f-35) is too costly, so they are going for a more cost effective replacement for their cold war era single engine fighters i.e A-10 and F-16.

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## Super Falcon

Is their any plan uograding all jets to block 70


----------



## SQ8

ACE OF HEARTS said:


> This Is the F-36 Kingsnake. It Could Be the Air Force's Next Fighter Jet.
> 
> 
> Meet the new, non-stealthy fighter that may replace the F-16.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.popularmechanics.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "A kingsnake attacking a western diamondback rattlesnake, a member of the viper family".
> 
> "As for the F-36’s name, kingsnakes are North American snakes that live up to 30 years, which bodes well for the F-36’s service life. Kingsnakes are so named because they have a habit of eating other snakes—a fitting moniker for a fighter designed to replace the Viper."


That being said - THERE IS NO SUCH AIRCRAFT with that nomenclature nor that design under consideration in ANY official US military project.

It is as similar to the stealthy JF-17 concepts as anything else.


PanzerKiel said:


> ... Here the plot thickens..... Let's stick to this thread...


Considering the attitude of some members these days... “Yeh, Zaroor Bajwa ki ghalati hai”

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## Trailer23

To mark *1000 pages* of the F-16 Topic, i'm just gonna post a few videos i've done on this beauty (most of us love).

You can tell the difference from my earlier work to the most recent  .















There is also the video dedicated to _Wg Cdr. Nauman Akram (Shaheed)_, but I didn't think it was suitable to post that.

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## Trailer23

Anyone got an image of *84708*?

@Windjammer @Hodor @airomerix


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## MastanKhan

Hi,

Americans have a habit of sending the eastern block on a wild goose chase---while in truth---they may have something entirely different in mind---.

This information is on a similar level to create confusion---. But then it maybe the truth.

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## Clairvoyant

Trailer23 said:


> Anyone got an image of *84708*?
> 
> @Windjammer @Hodor @airomerix



There's a pre MLU era picture available on F-16.net.






84708.jpg photos | F-16.net







www.f-16.net











Post MLU.

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## airomerix

Trailer23 said:


> Anyone got an image of *84708*?
> 
> @Windjammer @Hodor @airomerix



Its a CCS jet. Seldom leaves Mushaf. Stored and cannibalized for most of its life.

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## MastanKhan

Windjammer said:


> Yes mighty Mastan sahib, we are not privileged to sit in the board meetings of LM or Boeing to know the inside story.....let me remind you what you said earlier...
> 
> 
> Now tell me was the Viper created to eat the Phantom or Hornet produced to destroy the Tomcat.
> Newer designs may have much more capabilities but it's wrong to say they are purposely created to finish others.....while some countries are acquiring F-35s to replace say F-16s in their inventory but there are other countries who still prefer and are ordering the Vipers.



Hi,

You don't need to sit on the board meetings. But you need to have a sound and fundamental base of the american workings and understanding what they are doing---but you cannot do that by being prickly.

Everything that is coming out or will come has already been written in books on wars and weapons, espionage, combat etc etc etc.

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## untitled

Windjammer said:


> but there are other countries who still prefer and are ordering the Vipers.


Those would be the countries for which the F-35 is off limits

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## Metal 0-1

Trailer23 said:


> To mark *1000 pages* of the F-16 Topic, i'm just gonna post a few videos i've done on this beauty (most of us love).
> 
> You can tell the difference from my earlier work to the most recent  .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​There is also the video dedicated to _Wg Cdr. Nauman Akram (Shaheed)_, but I didn't think it was suitable to post that.


Man this video works so well with *Sebastian Böhm - Blue Monday* you gotta try this out.

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## airomerix

Trailer23 said:


> Anyone got an image of *84708*?
> 
> @Windjammer @Hodor @airomerix



Here you go. #84708 inflight.

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

Super Falcon said:


> Is their any plan uograding all jets to block 70



US will never allow that considering Pakistan is under sanction. Not even AH-1Z are ever delivered after Pakistan paid for it. Once F-16 frames run out their lives in Pakistan they will be replaced by J-10C which has similar size as F-16.

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## arjunk

1000 pages! And still no new eff sola

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## SQ8

arjunk said:


> 1000 pages! And still no new eff sola


Why does a new F-16 need to justify a 1000 pages?

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## The Raven

airomerix said:


> Its a CCS jet. Seldom leaves Mushaf. Stored and cannibalized for most of its life.



The PAF doesn't canabalise its Vipers, it's only done that with used Mirages from Lebanon, Libya and Australia.

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## arjunk

SQ8 said:


> Why does a new F-16 need to justify a 1000 pages?


Some of us have been opening this thread for years waiting for news of a new F-16...

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## SQ8

arjunk said:


> Some of us have been opening this thread for years waiting for news of a new F-16...


People buy lottery tickets all their lives without winning a single penny. But they still do it.

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## kursed

arjunk said:


> Some of us have been opening this thread for years waiting for news of a new F-16...


I will make it easy for you then, there are no new F-16s coming. Pakistan simply does not have enough funds for such buys. And Americans are not extending PAF any leeway on CSF payments. If PAF were to ever even buy any frames, they'd be used birds.

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## Xone

SQ8 said:


> People buy lottery tickets all their lives without winning a single penny. But they still do it.


Pakistan chances of getting F16 are no more than a lottery ticket. We have to throw them in the dustbin at the end of this wistful insatiable expectation.
Sooner we get out of this nostalgic mania, the better for Pakistan

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

kursed said:


> I will make it easy for you then, there are no new F-16s coming. Pakistan simply does not have enough funds for such buys. And Americans are not extending PAF any leeway on CSF payments. If PAF were to ever even buy any frames, they'd be used birds.


When a country is short on funds, it does 1 of 3 things:

1. take out loans, which we can't due to FATF and not-so-great credit ratings.

2. sell-off state properties, resources, etc, which we can't because the majority of valuable properties are under ill-gotten / shady ownership of former or current state-funded employees.

3. undertake a massive economic engineering project that focuses on producing and exporting valuable goods to foreign markets. The simplest solution for a country with a large population is to force domestic sourcing on all entities looking to sell to the local market.

E.g., if you want to sell anything to this 200-million-strong market, you must produce 51-90% of that thing's value (based on a gov't assessment using foreign benchmarks) in Pakistan.

If you enact this policy, there is no reason why Pakistan wouldn't become a top-10 or top-15 producer of cars, clothing, food, consumer goods, appliances, construction material, car parts, etc, etc.

I imagine a substantial chunk of your population will be employed, thereby enabling you to generate state revenue and buy the defence hardware you need. Of course, I wouldn't even do that, I would continue to re-invest in the local industry so that we create feeder industries and produce that hardware ourselves. Plus, I'd like to see Pakistani-owned businesses compete with other giants in the highest-value industries of today and tomorrow.

However, the fact that Pakistan can't or won't do number-3 is at this point just agonizing. There's no doubt that our leaders put as thought into this country as some chachi does in her 7/11 or gas station. It's not even corruption at this point -- at least the corrupt and broke countries in Latin America can produce great football teams, but in Pakistan, even our cricket is suspect.

Do we as a nation (including myself) have an undiagnosed cognitive disability? Are we so functionally incapable that we need Americans, Chinese, Arabs or Turks to take the lead for us? Be it the secular realm or the religious realm, why are we always -- without fail - deferring to others and not taking initiative?

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## kursed

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> When a country is short on funds, it does 1 of 3 things:
> 
> 1. take out loans, which we can't due to FATF and not-so-great credit ratings.
> 
> 2. sell-off state properties, resources, etc, which we can't because the majority of valuable properties are under ill-gotten / shady ownership of former or current state-funded employees.
> 
> 3. undertake a massive economic engineering project that focuses on producing and exporting valuable goods to foreign markets. The simplest solution for a country with a large population is to force domestic sourcing on all entities looking to sell to the local market.
> 
> E.g., if you want to sell anything to this 200-million-strong market, you must produce 51-90% of that thing's value (based on a gov't assessment using foreign benchmarks) in Pakistan.
> 
> If you enact this policy, there is no reason why Pakistan wouldn't become a top-10 or top-15 producer of cars, clothing, food, consumer goods, appliances, construction material, car parts, etc, etc.
> 
> I imagine a substantial chunk of your population will be employed, thereby enabling you to generate state revenue and buy the defence hardware you need. Of course, I wouldn't even do that, I would continue to re-invest in the local industry so that we create feeder industries and that hardware ourselves.
> 
> However, the fact that Pakistan can't or won't do number-3 is at this point just agonizing. There's no doubt that our leaders put as thought into this country as some chachi does in her 7/11 or gas station.


Bilal, for us to be able to do even 20% of what you suggest - would need an unprecedented investment into raising the level of Human Resources available within the country. We do not have the labor to take on extensive high-tech projects and our investor / trader class is rentier. They survive on state largesse and unable to perform well on their own.

Pakistan's issue is a multi-generational issue, starting at the lack of creative ideas from the very top. For a country with a huge young population, the Gov/State simply has failed to provide them with opportunity or the tools to do better.

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## Xone

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> sourcing on all entities looking to sell to the local market.


Our rupee has lost competitive value, just because of this one factor our local buyers will be outclassed by foreign invertors.
growth of economy is heavily interlinked with political stability of the country, besides long term planning.
We are dagger drawn at present.


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## GriffinsRule

ACM Mushaf Ali Mir shaheed in front of 84708

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## Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen

arjunk said:


> Some of us have been opening this thread for years waiting for news of a new F-16...



Not going to happen with the sanction the US put on Pakistan. Pakistan can't even get AH-1Z let alone a new F-16. As long as Pakistan is at odds with India and friendly with China, the US won't sell F-16 to Pakistan. J-10C is the replacement of F-16 once the frames run out after 50 years by 2030.

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## ghazi52

PAF F-16 Blk 52 | Vertical Rolls | Rehearsals | 2021

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## untitled

The Raven said:


> The PAF doesn't canabalise its Vipers,


They were before the MLUs happened


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## airomerix

The Raven said:


> The PAF doesn't canabalise its Vipers, it's only done that with used Mirages from Lebanon, Libya and Australia.



Every aerospace organization cannibalizes its assets on a temporary basis to make other assets serviceable. It's not like we have 100% serviceability for our F-16s. It is impossible.

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## blain2

Tai Hai Chen said:


> Not going to happen with the sanction the US put on Pakistan. Pakistan can't even get AH-1Z let alone a new F-16. As long as Pakistan is at odds with India and friendly with China, the US won't sell F-16 to Pakistan. J-10C is the replacement of F-16 once the frames run out after 50 years by 2030.


US has no sanctions on Pakistan currently.

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## ziaulislam

Tai Hai Chen said:


> US will never allow that considering Pakistan is under sanction. Not even AH-1Z are ever delivered after Pakistan paid for it. Once F-16 frames run out their lives in Pakistan they will be replaced by J-10C which has similar size as F-16.


We never paid for ah 1z


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## Trailer23

airomerix said:


> Here you go. #84708 inflight.
> 
> View attachment 726353


Aray wha..., sir jee.

You see, there is reason why I only tag a less than a handful of individuals when it comes to these sort of things. Brilliant find  .


kursed said:


> And Americans are not extending PAF any leeway on CSF payments.


You may be/could be right. Lets see how they get their junk out of Afg without the assistance of Pakistan. The only thing is Pakistan better play its cards right.


Tai Hai Chen said:


> Not going to happen with the sanction the US put on Pakistan.


Sanctions  ?!!

Sorry, but which 'Sanctions' are you referring to?

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## The Raven

airomerix said:


> Every aerospace organization cannibalizes its assets on a temporary basis to make other assets serviceable. It's not like we have 100% serviceability for our F-16s. It is impossible.



Wrong. The PAF has never cannibalised its Viper fleet, even during the height of the Pressler sanctions in the 90s. Happy to be proved wrong. So you're telling me the USAF cannibalises its Viper and Eagle fleet? Do you know what 'cannibalise' means in this context?


untitled said:


> They were before the MLUs happened



Nope, they weren't, we never cannibalised an entire Viper airframe for the sake of any other, but happy to be proved wrong.

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## Windjammer

The Raven said:


> Wrong. The PAF has never cannibalised its Viper fleet, even during the height of the Pressler sanctions in the 90s. Happy to be proved wrong. So you're telling me the USAF cannibalises its Viper and Eagle fleet? Do you know what 'cannibalise' means in this context?
> 
> 
> Nope, they weren't, we never cannibalised an entire Viper airframe for the sake of any other, but happy to be proved wrong.


Sir, just leave it, the member already has contradicted himself by claiming in one post that a certain F-16 ''just sits at an airbase, stored and cannibalised most of it's life''.....and a few posts later posts a recent image of the same F-16 in a formation flight. !!!

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## araz

The Raven said:


> Wrong. The PAF has never cannibalised its Viper fleet, even during the height of the Pressler sanctions in the 90s. Happy to be proved wrong. So you're telling me the USAF cannibalises its Viper and Eagle fleet? Do you know what 'cannibalise' means in this context?
> 
> 
> Nope, they weren't, we never cannibalised an entire Viper airframe for the sake of any other, but happy to be proved wrong.


I have heard that during the 90s a few airframes were cannibalized to keep the rest of the fleet up in the air. That was the reason we ended up with 32 air frames out of the 40 that we had. I cannot remember how many were l9st but I think they were 3-4.
I friendly fire.
1 boar accident.
1 CFit due to pilot disorientation due to night.
1 more I cannot remember the reason but possibly related to a tech issue.
The rest were cannibalized to keep the fleet up. 
A


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## Windjammer

araz said:


> I have heard that during the 90s a few airframes were cannibalized to keep the rest of the fleet up in the air. That was the reason we ended up with 32 air frames out of the 40 that we had. I cannot remember how many were l9st but I think they were 3-4.
> I friendly fire.
> 1 boar accident.
> 1 CFit due to pilot disorientation due to night.
> 1 more I cannot remember the reason but possibly related to a tech issue.
> The rest were cannibalized to keep the fleet up.
> A


Oh please, a simple search on F-16 Net reveals details of all the 10 F-16s lost to date through accidents or mishaps and none were grounded due to so called cannibalisation. 






F-16 Accidents & Mishaps for the Pakistan Air Force







www.f-16.net

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## araz

Windjammer said:


> Oh please, a simple search on F-16 Net reveals details of all the 10 F-16s lost to date through accidents or mishaps and none were grounded due to so called cannibalisation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16 Accidents & Mishaps for the Pakistan Air Force
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.f-16.net


Thank you. I stand corrected.
A

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## Side-Winder

Temporary cannibalization of parts is done in order to ensure higher serviceability. How? 
You have an F-16 due for Phase inspection after certain flying hours for N number days (I won't reveal here how many). Then you have got an F-16 at flight lines which goes MICAP (Mission Incapable) due to sudden malfunctioning of a component that's not available at logistics, and has to be ordered from OEM which would take alot of time. So what you do is, you cannibalize that component from the F-16 which was on Phase inspection ( Aircraft already non-operational) and put it on that F-16 on flight lines. And there you go, Your F-16 at flight lines is good to go. Meanwhile you get your component from OEM after all the processing. 

@The Raven @airomerix @Windjammer @araz

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## ghazi52

*PAF F-16 | Cuban 8 | No 11 | Rehearsals | Arrows | 2021*

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## The Raven

Side-Winder said:


> Temporary cannibalization of parts is done in order to ensure higher serviceability. How?
> You have an F-16 due for Phase inspection after certain flying hours for N number days (I won't reveal here how many). Then you have got an F-16 at flight lines which goes MICAP (Mission Incapable) due to sudden malfunctioning of a component that's not available at logistics, and has to be ordered from OEM which would take alot of time. So what you do is, you cannibalize that component from the F-16 which was on Phase inspection ( Aircraft already non-operational) and put it on that F-16 on flight lines. And there you go, Your F-16 at flight lines is good to go. Meanwhile you get your component from OEM after all the processing.
> 
> @The Raven @airomerix @Windjammer @araz



That's completely different to the cannibalisation being referred to here, where it's been implied that an entire aircraft has been stripped for parts, similar to what occurred with the Mirages.

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## airomerix

The Raven said:


> Wrong. The PAF has never cannibalised its Viper fleet, even during the height of the Pressler sanctions in the 90s. Happy to be proved wrong. So you're telling me the USAF cannibalises its Viper and Eagle fleet? Do you know what 'cannibalise' means in this context?
> 
> 
> Nope, they weren't, we never cannibalised an entire Viper airframe for the sake of any other, but happy to be proved wrong.





The Raven said:


> That's completely different to the cannibalisation being referred to here, where it's been implied that an entire aircraft has been stripped for parts, similar to what occurred with the Mirages.



There is a gap in your understanding of the word 'cannibalization in the context of fleet readiness.

First lets understand this. 

If part A goes wrong in aircraft# 707 and part B goes wrong in aircraft #709, it makes greater sense to cannibalize aircraft # 708 of these two parts compared to ordering, sourcing, delivering and then installing these parts. This is 4 months time on average right there.

No one has said there are bunch of viper airframes at Sargodha eating the dust. However, in context of PAF F-16s, we have routinely cannibalized older F-16s of crucial components in an effort to support maybe an airframe that is perhaps newer and needs to clock x number of hours as planned by F-16 office at AHQ. 

The reason is simple. the supply chain is not lean and is far from simple due to a variety of reasons. It is fairly easy and QUICK to cannibalize one airframe and keep other 7 airframes airworthy. While the engg prepares a summary of requirements and HQ deals with the rest of the procurement cycle which is a LONG process. 

Every time Pakistan requires technical support for its F-16s, it is awarded to multiple companies in the US. And do a little search, how often does that happen? It's a recurring process. Pakistan does not manufacture the mission critical parts of F-16s.




Windjammer said:


> Sir, just leave it, the member already has contradicted himself by claiming in one post that a certain F-16 ''just sits at an airbase, stored and cannibalised most of it's life''.....and a few posts later posts a recent image of the same F-16 in a formation flight. !!!



When elders speak, you listen and learn. Pictures are supposed to be your forte. Next time come up with pictures when someone asks. I don't want to do it for you. 



araz said:


> I have heard that during the 90s a few airframes were cannibalized to keep the rest of the fleet up in the air. That was the reason we ended up with 32 air frames out of the 40 that we had. I cannot remember how many were l9st but I think they were 3-4.
> I friendly fire.
> 1 boar accident.
> 1 CFit due to pilot disorientation due to night.
> 1 more I cannot remember the reason but possibly related to a tech issue.
> The rest were cannibalized to keep the fleet up.
> A



Whatever the case, we never had 'operational' 32 F-16s even in those times. Heck, look at the mission readiness rates of USAF F-16 fleet. On a good day it has been around 82%. Even they cannibalize their aircraft as per the need. 

It is appalling that fans believe we have all 75 vipers mission ready as we speak. Like really. 








Side-Winder said:


> Temporary cannibalization of parts is done in order to ensure higher serviceability. How?
> You have an F-16 due for Phase inspection after certain flying hours for N number days (I won't reveal here how many). Then you have got an F-16 at flight lines which goes MICAP (Mission Incapable) due to sudden malfunctioning of a component that's not available at logistics, and has to be ordered from OEM which would take alot of time. So what you do is, you cannibalize that component from the F-16 which was on Phase inspection ( Aircraft already non-operational) and put it on that F-16 on flight lines. And there you go, Your F-16 at flight lines is good to go. Meanwhile you get your component from OEM after all the processing.
> 
> @The Raven @airomerix @Windjammer @araz



Beautifully explained.

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## The Raven

airomerix said:


> There is a gap in your understanding of the word 'cannibalization in the context of fleet readiness.
> 
> First lets understand this.
> 
> If part A goes wrong in aircraft# 707 and part B goes wrong in aircraft #709, it makes greater sense to cannibalize aircraft # 708 of these two parts compared to ordering, sourcing, delivering and then installing these parts. This is 4 months time on average right there.
> 
> No one has said there are bunch of viper airframes at Sargodha eating the dust. However, in context of PAF F-16s, we have routinely cannibalized older F-16s of crucial components in an effort to support maybe an airframe that is perhaps newer and needs to clock x number of hours as planned by F-16 office at AHQ.
> 
> The reason is simple. the supply chain is not lean and is far from simple due to a variety of reasons. It is fairly easy and QUICK to cannibalize one airframe and keep other 7 airframes airworthy. While the engg prepares a summary of requirements and HQ deals with the rest of the procurement cycle which is a LONG process.
> 
> Every time Pakistan requires technical support for its F-16s, it is awarded to multiple companies in the US. And do a little search, how often does that happen? It's a recurring process. Pakistan does not manufacture the mission critical parts of F-16s.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When elders speak, you listen and learn. Pictures are supposed to be your forte. Next time come up with pictures when someone asks. I don't want to do it for you.
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever the case, we never had 'operational' 32 F-16s even in those times. Heck, look at the mission readiness rates of USAF F-16 fleet. On a good day it has been around 82%. Even they cannibalize their aircraft as per the need.
> 
> It is appalling that fans believe we have all 75 vipers mission ready as we speak. Like really.
> 
> View attachment 726651
> 
> 
> 
> Beautifully explained.




Thanks for the detailed explanation, and yes you're correct, it is all in the context. Without further elaboration, simply stating 'cannibalisation' in the PAF context usually refers to what we have done with the Mirage III/V fleet, i.e. in the absence of newly sourced critical OEM parts, we had to resort to the 'complete' cannibalisation of entire used airframes, as well as manufacture of components. Of course, an entire fleet is never 100% available for service, due to a specific fraction needing MRO. My only point here was to clarify that we never had to resort to sacrificing entire airframes of Vipers at the expense of keeping other airworthy, despite sanctions. An example of where this has occurred is the IRIAF where they quite literally had to sacrifice a fraction of their airframes of F-14 Tomcats and F-4 Phantoms to keep a certain number airworthy - the PAF never had to resort to that, even during the height of the Pressler sanctions.

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## Windjammer

airomerix said:


> When elders speak, you listen and learn. Pictures are supposed to be your forte. Next time come up with pictures when someone asks. I don't want to do it for you.


Yes wise old guy with I love me, who do you love attitude.
BTW, back then there were no exclusive CCS F-16s, the unit use to borrow Vipers from the two F-16 Squadrons co-located at the base.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> Yes wise old guy with I love me, who do you love attitude.
> BTW, back then there were no exclusive CCS F-16s, the unit use to borrow Vipers from the two F-16 Squadrons co-located at the base.


He worked for PAC Kamra. So he may have a better idea. And rotational cannibalisation did exist at the time yet fortunately it didn't affect flying time much with sanctions. That's why the selection for F-16 aircrew was kept a lot more strict than today.

However, there were no hangar queens with the Vipers other than a particular B model.

CCS still does the borrowing as does the OCU for training new cadre of Viper IPs and studs.

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## airomerix

The Raven said:


> Thanks for the detailed explanation, and yes you're correct, it is all in the context. Without further elaboration, simply stating 'cannibalisation' in the PAF context usually refers to what we have done with the Mirage III/V fleet, i.e. in the absence of newly sourced critical OEM parts, we had to resort to the 'complete' cannibalisation of entire used airframes, as well as manufacture of components. Of course, an entire fleet is never 100% available for service, due to a specific fraction needing MRO. My only point here was to clarify that we never had to resort to sacrificing entire airframes of Vipers at the expense of keeping other airworthy, despite sanctions. An example of where this has occurred is the IRIAF where they quite literally had to sacrifice a fraction of their airframes of F-14 Tomcats and F-4 Phantoms to keep a certain number airworthy - the PAF never had to resort to that, even during the height of the Pressler sanctions.



I agree. We never had to 'throw away' a viper. The reason being, we saw MLU update in mid 2000's, it brought back every airframe to life. Still, the 708 was cannibalized a lot more. It has seen a lot of flying in 80s and 90s anyway. Cannibalization doesn't necessarily mean we take off wings of one viper and put them on another. There are hundreds of components that go wrong on regular basis. 

Similarly, for the longest of time, I've seen JF-17 #111 and #101 I think cannibalized to keep the rest up. It is a routine thing. Same goes for C-130's.

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## Windjammer

Raider 21 said:


> He worked for PAC Kamra. So he may have a better idea. And rotational cannibalisation did exist at the time yet fortunately it didn't affect flying time much with sanctions. That's why the selection for F-16 aircrew was kept a lot more strict than today.
> 
> However, there were no hangar queens with the Vipers other than a particular B model.
> 
> CCS still does the borrowing as does the OCU for training new cadre of Viper IPs and studs.


I don't doubt that or have any issues about it.....was just trying to defuse a futile argument between him and the other member but end up getting the attitude.
I maybe wrong but now see Vipers with ''Aggressors'' logo and am under impression they are permanent CCS birds.
BTW, any idea what USAF is bringing to ACES MEET next week.

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## airomerix

Windjammer said:


> Yes wise old guy with I love me, who do you love attitude.
> *BTW, back then there were no exclusive CCS F-16s, the unit use to borrow Vipers from the two F-16 Squadrons co-located at the base.*



Genius, this still is the case. Clearly shows that your JSCC guest didnt teach you much. 

There are still no exclusive CCS vipers. They still borrow from either 9 or 29. #708 has been the red force aggressor for decades now, which means more stress on the airframe. However, red forces do not operate for 365 days and CCS courses are not structured this way. I have said enough already on this, Take a hike.


Windjammer said:


> I don't doubt that or have any issues about it.....was just trying to defuse a futile argument between him and the other member but end up getting the attitude.
> I maybe wrong but now see Vipers with ''Aggressors'' logo and am under impression they are permanent CCS birds.


No sweetheart. OC 9 can any day take a 29 bird. 

Similarly, OC 29 took a No. 9 bird (731) for swift retort.

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## airomerix

Raider 21 said:


> *He worked for PAC Kamra. S*o he may have a better idea. And rotational cannibalisation did exist at the time yet fortunately it didn't affect flying time much with sanctions. That's why the selection for F-16 aircrew was kept a lot more strict than today.
> 
> However, there were no hangar queens with the Vipers other than a particular B model.
> 
> CCS still does the borrowing as does the OCU for training new cadre of Viper IPs and studs.



Dont give out much my man.

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## Yasser76

Raider 21 said:


> He worked for PAC Kamra. So he may have a better idea. And rotational cannibalisation did exist at the time yet fortunately it didn't affect flying time much with sanctions. That's why the selection for F-16 aircrew was kept a lot more strict than today.
> 
> However, there were no hangar queens with the Vipers other than a particular B model.
> 
> CCS still does the borrowing as does the OCU for training new cadre of Viper IPs and studs.



Thought CCS now had their own Vipers? Is the "Aggressor" Sqd not assigned to them?

Also Is number 11 or 13 not the OCU?


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## Raider 21

Yasser76 said:


> Thought CCS now had their own Vipers? Is the "Aggressor" Sqd not assigned to them?
> 
> Also Is number 11 or 13 not the OCU?


19 is OCU and then those selected for MLU & EMLU go to 11 for conversion

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## Yasser76

Raider 21 said:


> 19 is OCU and then those selected for MLU & EMLU go to 11 for conversion




Great thanks, sorry, meant to write 19 not 13. Why send pilots to two seperate OCU courses for the Viper?


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## Raider 21

Yasser76 said:


> Great thanks, sorry, meant to write 19 not 13. Why send pilots to two seperate OCU courses for the Viper?


In the PAF system, they have kept the ADFs and MLUs in separate squadrons. Newbies now start off in 19

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## Yasser76

Raider 21 said:


> In the PAF system, they have kept the ADFs and MLUs in separate squadrons. Newbies now start off in 19



So all pilots for 5,9,11 and 28 need to start off on the ADFs with Number 19? That sounds strange and surely the numbers do not add up, there are only 13 ADFs at Bolhari so how does support enough new pilots for the rest of the fleet?

Also 19 only has 3-4 two seater Bs,


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## Irfan Baloch

airomerix said:


> Genius, this still is the case. Clearly shows that your JSCC guest didnt teach you much.
> 
> There are still no exclusive CCS vipers. They still borrow from either 9 or 29. #708 has been the red force aggressor for decades now, which means more stress on the airframe. However, red forces do not operate for 365 days and CCS courses are not structured this way. I have said enough already on this, Take a hike.
> 
> No sweetheart. OC 9 can any day take a 29 bird.
> 
> Similarly, OC 29 took a No. 9 bird (731) for swift retort.


harmless banter is just fine.
its ok to have differing opinions.

we are together when it comes to serve tea and surprise

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## Raider 21

Yasser76 said:


> So all pilots for 5,9,11 and 28 need to start off on the ADFs with Number 19? That sounds strange and surely the numbers do not add up, there are only 13 ADFs at Bolhari so how does support enough new pilots for the rest of the fleet?
> 
> Also 19 only has 3-4 two seater Bs,


That's the setup they have where they take fresh OCU minted pilots into Vipers. I am sure experienced guys get sent to MLU without going through ADF route. And it is not strange, no such thing as strange. It is just PAF being PAF....

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## Yasser76

Raider 21 said:


> That's the setup they have where they take fresh OCU minted pilots into Vipers. I am sure experienced guys get sent to MLU without going through ADF route. And it is not strange, no such thing as strange. It is just PAF being PAF....



So, when I meant strange, surely for the Viper fleet we need a minimum of around 50 new pilots a year (in addition to experianced ones), how do 3 F-16Bs at Number 19 cope with that?


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## Talon

Yasser76 said:


> So all pilots for 5,9,11 and 28 need to start off on the ADFs with Number 19? That sounds strange and surely the numbers do not add up, there are only 13 ADFs at Bolhari so how does support enough new pilots for the rest of the fleet?
> 
> Also 19 only has 3-4 two seater Bs,


Experienced pilots usually go directly on MLUed vipers

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> It's not difficult being a clever dick and pick up info from what others have posted add some cheap banter and consider your self a cool guy....must say his English has at least improved a lot since he use to post on the older PDF forum.
> Anyways, does anyone knows anti-rain dance as the weather forecast for 23 March is of no joy.


Watch the language. Behave.

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## airomerix

Yasser76 said:


> So all pilots for 5,9,11 and 28 need to start off on the ADFs with Number 19? That sounds strange and surely the numbers do not add up, there are only 13 ADFs at Bolhari so how does support enough new pilots for the rest of the fleet?
> 
> Also 19 only has 3-4 two seater Bs,



Pilots going to No. 19 have to do 8 missions 'flawlessly' in order to complete the OCU, X number of missions are done with IP on F-16B's and Y number of missions are completed on A models. This is in addition to accumulate Z number of flying hours on F-16As. Not to mention, the simulator is also there. 

After 19, they transition to 11 sqn (in some cases 9) to complete advanced weapons training on B model MLU's. But the real conversion happens at 19. Since the induction of ADFs, it has taken off the load from B MLU's and they don't have to do touch and go every now and then.


Irfan Baloch said:


> harmless banter is just fine.
> its ok to have differing opinions.
> 
> we are together when it comes to serve tea and surprise



I agree. This is why I don't mind giving him these banters. He is touchy and very patriotic. And we are on the same team. Makes it even better.

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## Yasser76

airomerix said:


> Pilots going to No. 19 have to do 8 missions 'flawlessly' in order to complete the OCU, X number of missions are done with IP on F-16B's and Y number of missions are completed on A models. This is in addition to accumulate Z number of flying hours on F-16As. Not to mention, the simulator is also there.
> 
> After 19, they transition to 11 sqn (in some cases 9) to complete advanced weapons training on B model MLU's. But the real conversion happens at 19. Since the induction of ADFs, it has taken off the load from B MLU's and they don't have to do touch and go every now and then.
> 
> 
> I agree. This is why I don't mind giving him these banters. He is touchy and very patriotic. And we are on the same team. Makes it even better.




Great, thanks, then this must leave 19 with very little spare time/airframes to do QRA no?


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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> And what language is that....let me be very clear, I never use degrading terms specially against a Pakistani member and since you have spent time in UK, one expects that you would be aware of certain terms or sayings however if you are not just taking a dig then let me help you.
> 
> 
> English: clever DickEnglish: clever dick
> *Definition of 'clever Dick'*
> 
> 
> *clever Dick in British English*
> or cleverdick (ˈklɛvəˌdɪk )
> NOUN
> informal
> a person considered to have an unwarrantably high opinion of his or her own ability or knowledge
> Collins English Dictionary. Copyright © HarperCollins Publishers


And who are you to assume I spent that long enough of time in the UK. Yes I intend to do so eventually, but I have spent time between Pak, Middle East and Canada.


airomerix said:


> Pilots going to No. 19 have to do 8 missions 'flawlessly' in order to complete the OCU, X number of missions are done with IP on F-16B's and Y number of missions are completed on A models. This is in addition to accumulate Z number of flying hours on F-16As. Not to mention, the simulator is also there.
> 
> After 19, they transition to 11 sqn (in some cases 9) to complete advanced weapons training on B model MLU's. But the real conversion happens at 19. Since the induction of ADFs, it has taken off the load from B MLU's and they don't have to do touch and go every now and then.
> 
> 
> I agree. This is why I don't mind giving him these banters. He is touchy and very patriotic. And we are on the same team. Makes it even better.


Hope to work on those Sims one day if they come under our division. PAF Viper Sims will now be under CAE

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## airomerix

Raider 21 said:


> And who are you to assume I spent that long enough of time in the UK. Yes I intend to do so eventually, but I have spent time between Pak, Middle East and Canada.
> 
> Hope to work on those Sims one day if they come under our division. PAF Viper Sims will now be under CAE



Congratulations on the acquisition of L3 Harris simulation division. Indeed a great step!

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## SQ8

airomerix said:


> Congratulations on the acquisition of L3 Harris simulation division. Indeed a great step!


One can go check with AVM Shamim or older folks circa 1998-2000 on what we could have had or planned out for Viper sims.
Neural feedback for G-simulation was once thought up, except the PAF never wanted to put the money into getting top neurologists involved but was happy getting all viper pilots go bald - and they say the PAF did not think beyond 5 years.

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## airomerix

Yasser76 said:


> Great, thanks, then this must leave 19 with very little spare time/airframes to do QRA no?



Some are on QRA 24/7, piloted by IPs/senior sqn ld's. Even though Bholari is supported by units from Shahbaz and Masroor, It currently acts like a FOB surrounded by vast deserts. It has given more pain to IAF's units at Bhuj AFS that acts as a FOB for No.15 sqn (Su's) based out of Sirsa. The same units support IAF's no.6 sqn based a little more to the south at Jamnagarh that operates Jaguar strike sqn. So in an event of war, IAF has to worry about Bholari first before engaging Karachi. Otherwise, if they plan to fly over the arabian sea, they have to worry about PN's submarine fleet that is capable of surface to air attack. 

And Bholari will never be a primary target for IAF. It will always be units in Karachi or bases in Punjab. Jaccoabad is an exception because 11 and 5 both will serve as interceptors for both PAF's central command and southern command In short, Bholari currently serves as IAFs 'migraine'


SQ8 said:


> One can go check with AVM Shamim or older folks circa 1998-2000 on what we could have had or planned out for Viper sims.
> Neural feedback for G-simulation was once thought up, except the PAF never wanted to put the money into getting top neurologists involved but was happy getting all viper pilots go bald - and they say the PAF did not think beyond 5 years.



I never knew PAF gave it a thought. However it would be interesting to study the impact on PAF's capability had this neuro based simulators ever materialised. Any thoughts? @Raider 21

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## SQ8

airomerix said:


> Some are on QRA 24/7, piloted by IPs/senior sqn ld's. Even though Bholari is supported by units from Shahbaz and Masroor, It currently acts like a FOB surrounded by vast deserts. It has given more pain to IAF's units at Bhuj AFS that acts as a FOB for No.15 sqn (Su's) based out of Sirsa. The same units support IAF's no.6 sqn based a little more to the south at Jamnagarh that operates Jaguar strike sqn. So in an event of war, IAF has to worry about Bholari first before engaging Karachi. Otherwise, if they plan to fly over the arabian sea, they have to worry about PN's submarine fleet that is capable of surface to air attack.
> 
> And Bholari will never be a primary target for IAF. It will always be units in Karachi or bases in Punjab. Jaccoabad is an exception because 11 and 5 both will serve as interceptors for both PAF's central command and southern command In short, Bholari currently serves as IAFs 'migraine'
> 
> 
> I never knew PAF gave it a thought. However it would be interesting to study the impact on PAF's capability had this neuro based simulators ever materialised. Any thoughts? @Raider 21


Reducing airframe usage was the primary concern, essentially the pilots get the full feel sim with physical experience. The sim part of it was a piece of cake but the dev team simply would not think about it unless the PAF got top neurologists involved - but they did not want to put in the money for that so the team said nothing doing , we’re not risking pilot lives with a subject engineers know nothing about.

There was also attempts to mate other BVR systems but the viper is fairly locked out - I guess the advantage of having ADA is its secure nature(not that the C++ used for JF & F-35 isn’t secure today).

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## truthfollower

23rd march is here and i want to ask what went wrong with the F-16 that was crashed last year?


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## GriffinsRule

airomerix said:


> Some are on QRA 24/7, piloted by IPs/senior sqn ld's. Even though Bholari is supported by units from Shahbaz and Masroor, It currently acts like a FOB surrounded by vast deserts. It has given more pain to IAF's units at Bhuj AFS that acts as a FOB for No.15 sqn (Su's) based out of Sirsa. The same units support IAF's no.6 sqn based a little more to the south at Jamnagarh that operates Jaguar strike sqn. So in an event of war, IAF has to worry about Bholari first before engaging Karachi. Otherwise, if they plan to fly over the arabian sea, *they have to worry about PN's submarine fleet that is capable of surface to air attack*.
> 
> And Bholari will never be a primary target for IAF. It will always be units in Karachi or bases in Punjab. Jaccoabad is an exception because 11 and 5 both will serve as interceptors for both PAF's central command and southern command In short, Bholari currently serves as IAFs 'migraine'
> 
> 
> I never knew PAF gave it a thought. However it would be interesting to study the impact on PAF's capability had this neuro based simulators ever materialised. Any thoughts? @Raider 21



Wait what? Really, air craft have to worry about 3-5 subs with Anza SAMs in the entire Arabian Sea? And why would they be guarding Karachi instead of being on offensive missions?

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## airomerix

GriffinsRule said:


> Wait what? Really, air craft have to worry about 3-5 subs with Anza SAMs in the entire Arabian Sea? And why would they be guarding Karachi instead of being on offensive missions?



Subs work in mysterious ways. They remain hidden and are extremely difficult to track. Historically, PN subs have been targeting IN assets that have been en route to Karachi. Also, Karachi is much farther away, any overflights over arabian sea will also be met with PN's surface vessels with early warning radars and surface to air capability.

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## GriffinsRule

Any sub found on the surface will be a sitting duck. Even a strafing run will virtually finish it off as it wont be able to dive again.


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## untitled

airomerix said:


> Subs work in mysterious ways.





GriffinsRule said:


> Any sub found on the surface will be a sitting duck. Even a strafing run will virtually finish....



You guys are talking about a submerged launch, right?

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## SQ8

truthfollower said:


> 23rd march is here and i want to ask what went wrong with the F-16 that was crashed last year?


What is the assumption that something went wrong? Also there is a discourse on it you can search under the pilots name - wg cmdr noman ali khan.

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## GriffinsRule

untitled said:


> You guys are talking about a submerged launch, right?


No man, there is no submerged launch against aircraft from our subs. Subs also dont have radars to find any such targets. The best they can manage is to try to identify ASW helicopters flying above by noise signatures against the waves.
PN subs "might" have a couple of ANZA sams as a means of last resort to be used against ASW helos or aircraft in case it has to surface for whatever reason. Otherwise there is no capability to attack any fighter jets.
And lets say even if as suggested you let a sub score a kill against a jet flying over (hopefully a IAF Mirages and not a PAF Mirage), fighters jets don't attack by their lonesome. If a sub fires a SAM, you can bet your bottom dollar the other aircraft in the strike package will make quick work on it.
The whole idea has no bearing in the real world.

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## airomerix

GriffinsRule said:


> No man, there is no submerged launch against aircraft from our subs. Subs also dont have radars to find any such targets. The best they can manage is to try to identify ASW helicopters flying above by noise signatures against the waves.
> PN subs "might" have a couple of ANZA sams as a means of last resort to be used against ASW helos or aircraft in case it has to surface for whatever reason. Otherwise there is no capability to attack any fighter jets.
> And lets say even if as suggested you let a sub score a kill against a jet flying over (hopefully a IAF Mirages and not a PAF Mirage), fighters jets don't attack by their lonesome. If a sub fires a SAM, you can bet your bottom dollar the other aircraft in the strike package will make quick work on it.
> The whole idea has no bearing in the real world.



Subs do not operate in silo's. When a frigate knows a package is incoming, a sub would know too. The systems are fairly integrated. These are not the subs of 1971. 

High flying Mirage 2000s will not even get a clue of a loitering sub. A couple of SAMs later and the strike package is already on the defensive. Once the sub dives, they are hard to find unless a ASW assets are scrambled, location triangulated and the sub is tracked/trapped. Point being, any flying over sea by IAF will be met by unpleasanteries by the PN.

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## baqai

truthfollower said:


> 23rd march is here and i want to ask what went wrong with the F-16 that was crashed last year?



Nothing, it was pilot error

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## airomerix

GriffinsRule said:


> Any sub found on the surface will be a sitting duck. Even a strafing run will virtually finish it off as it wont be able to dive again.



Scorpene subs can launch MICA SLAM from a considerable depth. The missile is inside a torpedo-like casing and as it submerges, it opens up and the booster is activated. You're right in a way that it is primarily for ASW assets. But I cant imagine PN vessels not doing anything about a strike package en route Karachi.

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## GriffinsRule

airomerix said:


> Scorpene subs can launch MICA SLAM from a considerable depth. The missile is inside a torpedo-like casing and as it submerges, it opens up and the booster is activated. You're right in a way that it is primarily for ASW assets. But I cant imagine PN vessels not doing anything about a strike package en route Karachi.


PN subs have no such capability. And if they are going to be along w surface ship with AAM, why would those not be used vs some bloke trying to fire a heat seeking missile from outside the sub?
Anyways, I hope that is not the surprise PN subs have for Indian military.

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## Clairvoyant

GriffinsRule said:


> PN subs have no such capability. And if they are going to be along w surface ship with AAM, why would those not be used vs some bloke trying to fire a heat seeking missile from outside the sub?
> Anyways, I hope that is not the surprise PN subs have for Indian military.



Completely agree with you on this,no such capability exists.Bholari's F.16's might not be able to put a tough fight because of their lack of BVR capability and let's not degrade Indian Jaguars. They're going through DARIN III upgrade and are being fitted with AESA radars and ASRAAM's. I wouldn't wana pit an AIM.9L/M equipped Viper against a HOBS equipped Jaguar.

End of the day the fight will be done by the Vipers from Paf Shahbaz or early version A/B series AMRAAM's need to be bought for our ADF vipers which I don't see happening at all.

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## Yasser76

Clairvoyant said:


> Completely agree with you on this,no such capability exists.Bholari's F.16's might not be able to put a tough fight because of their lack of BVR capability and let's not degrade Indian Jaguars. They're going through DARIN III upgrade and are being fitted with AESA radars and ASRAAM's. I wouldn't wana pit an AIM.9L/M equipped Viper against a HOBS equipped Jaguar.
> 
> End of the day the fight will be done by the Vipers from Paf Shahbaz or early version A/B series AMRAAM's need to be bought for our ADF vipers which I don't see happening at all.



Dude? You serious?? You know about the serious issue with the Jaguars engines? These planes are massively under powered, to the point they do not carry a full weapons load. In hot conditions they struggle to take off. If a Jaguar is on a bombing mission it will be the very definition of a sitting duck, it's thrust to weight ration being half that of a F-16

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## Raider 21

Yasser76 said:


> Dude? You serious?? You know about the serious issue with the Jaguars engines? These planes are massively under powered, to the point they do not carry a full weapons load. In hot conditions they struggle to take off. If a Jaguar is on a bombing mission it will be the very definition of a sitting duck, it's thrust to weight ration being half that of a F-16


And it takes an entire country to turn around. It would be a turkey shoot for anyone flying with AIM-9s. It is designed to fly straight.

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## PanzerKiel

Raider 21 said:


> And it takes an entire country to turn around. It would be a turkey shoot for anyone flying with AIM-9s. It is designed to fly straight.


.... Flying straight, nap of the earth,, low level penetration tactics....

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## Yasser76

PanzerKiel said:


> .... Flying straight, nap of the earth,, low level penetration tactics....



With any significant load it will be extremely hard to manouvre, if bounced by JF-17s or F-16s it will have to jettison tanks and bombs to have any chance, and if that happens, the PAF has succeeded in forcing them to abandon the mission

With PAF fielding decent numbers of AESA and HOBs missile equipped JF-17s, Jaguar has no place in modern battlfiield

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## PanzerKiel

Yasser76 said:


> Jaguar has no place in modern battlfiield


... Unless, the Jaguar strike is heavily supported.... Fighters with BVR flying top level cover for fighter sweeps... BARCAPs.... Heavy ELINT support along with AWACS on station...Jaguar sorties and its targets are generally chosen for their strategic nature and their great effect in case of getting neutralized, isolated or destroyed.

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## Yasser76

PanzerKiel said:


> ... Unless, the Jaguar strike is heavily supported.... Fighters with BVR flying top level cover for fighter sweeps... BARCAPs.... Heavy ELINT support along with AWACS on station...Jaguar sorties and its targets are generally chosen for their strategic nature and their great effect in case of getting neutralized, isolated or destroyed.



Yes, true, but I was specfically answering a question on the chances of a Jaguar taking on an F-16 in WVR combat, not it's escorts.

Also one has to remember that we live in an age of precision strike weapons. The Jaguar was conceived when planes had to flow over Russian columns and drop unguided heavy bombs on them. 

Pak armoured units have decent MANPADS. Even PAF strike Mirages have RAAD and H2/H4 to attack at stand off range. Sending Jaguars to attack a modern Pakistan army is suicide, which is why the upgrade was so important to them. As of now PAF Mirages have a much better stand off capability then IAF Jaguars. Why else did they use Mirage 2000 with SPICE to try and hit us on Feb 27th? If they had sent 6 Jaguars we would have served 7 cups of tea, not 1.....

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## PanzerKiel

Yasser76 said:


> Yes, true, but I was specfically answering a question on the chances of a Jaguar taking on an F-16 in WVR combat, not it's escorts.
> 
> Also one has to remember that we live in an age of precision strike weapons. The Jaguar was conceived when planes had to flow over Russian columns and drop unguided heavy bombs on them.
> 
> Pak armoured units have decent MANPADS. Even PAF strike Mirages have RAAD and H2/H4 to attack at stand off range. Sending Jaguars to attack a modern Pakistan army is suicide, which is why the upgrade was so important to them. As of now PAF Mirages have a much better stand off capability then IAF Jaguars. Why else did they use Mirage 2000 with SPICE to try and hit us on Feb 27th? If they had sent 6 Jaguars we would have served 7 cups of tea, not 1.....


... Agreed....

However,, IAF, or any any force, can be dangerous with clever tactics.... PAF did the same..... A smaller force with vintage aircraft.... IAF can do the same.... The can negate disadvantages of their Jaguars by support platforms, just like we did with our Mirages.... And here pops up the second important point in today's battlefield.... The sophistication of the weapon instead of the platform...... Just like Harpoons on our old ships in the 80s... Same for Mirages as well... A vintage platform which is just responsible to take the weapon to the fringes of its effective range, and then the sophistication of the weapon takes over.... Otherwise,PAF Mirages on their own, all alone, would not have been able to do what they did on 27. 

Speaks volumes about the PAF planning, emphasis on integration of different platforms and in the end, coming up with a well balanced package.

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## PanzerKiel

Yasser76 said:


> Yes, true, but I was specfically answering a question on the chances of a Jaguar taking on an F-16 in WVR combat, not it's escorts.


Of course, no chance for Jaguar... Unless I were flying the F16 with no weapons and bullets on board, even then a very slim chance....

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## Clairvoyant

Yasser76 said:


> Dude? You serious?? You know about the serious issue with the Jaguars engines? These planes are massively under powered, to the point they do not carry a full weapons load. In hot conditions they struggle to take off. If a Jaguar is on a bombing mission it will be the very definition of a sitting duck, it's thrust to weight ration being half that of a F-16



Yes I'm serious,no one would want to fight an aircraft equipped with an HMS and a missile like ASRAAM at close range,at least not with an AIM.9L/M,doesn't matter whether the sidewinder equipped aircraft is 9g capable but has no Bvr capability.


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## Yasser76

Clairvoyant said:


> Yes I'm serious,no one would want to fight an aircraft equipped with an HMS and a missile like ASRAAM at close range,at least not with an AIM.9L/M,doesn't matter whether the sidewinder equipped aircraft is 9g capable but has no Bvr capability.



I am not discounting the threat at all, but even without the missile advantge the Viper has an upper head against a heavily laden Jag, It will find him first, it will get right behind him, then it can use cannons/AIM-9L from a 180 degree angle.


I have not even started on the overwhelming advantge PAF has in AEW.

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## Clairvoyant

Yasser76 said:


> I am not discounting the threat at all, but even without the missile advantge the Viper has an upper head against a heavily laden Jag, It will find him first, it will get right behind him, then it can use cannons/AIM-9L from a 180 degree angle.
> 
> I have not even started on the overwhelming advantge PAF has in AEW.



Let me rephrase it for you dear. A heavily laden Jaguar would be escorted by a Mirage 2000I/MiG.29/Su.30MKI/Rafale and all these aircraft are BVR capable,now how would someone expect a sidewinder equipped Viper to counter them.
Also I've never said anything about the Jaguar taking on a Viper in a dogfight,thing is it will never have to do that but just as a last ditch measure the HOBS missiles it's carrying are a tough match.

Unless and untill the ADF vipers are upgraded,their main role would be to convert new pilots onto the viper or act as bomb trucks in a permissible environment.

The current emphasis in Pakistan airforce is rightly on Bvr combat,now that doesn't mean that Wvr fighting has been abandoned or they have stopped training for it.

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## Yasser76

Clairvoyant said:


> Let me rephrase it for you dear. A heavily laden Jaguar would be escorted by a Mirage 2000I/MiG.29/Su.30MKI/Rafale and all these aircraft are BVR capable,now how would someone expect a sidewinder equipped Viper to counter them.
> 
> Unless and untill the ADF vipers are upgraded,their main role would be to convert new pilots onto the viper or act as bomb trucks in a permissible environment.
> 
> The current emphasis in Pakistan airforce is rightly on Bvr combat,now that doesn't mean that Wvr fighting has been abandoned or they have stopped training for it.




I am not your "dear", let's make that clear.

So let's run through your hypothetical scenario than.

A Jaguar within a strike package of SU-30MKIs//Mirage 2000 etc would face a lone F-16 ADF Viper?

Yes, Number 19 is being used as an OCU now, but in war, it will act within a PAF package too, supported by Erieye, Falcon 20 EW and other fighters. The results will be like Feb 27th against a Jaguar.

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## Clairvoyant

Yasser76 said:


> I am not your "dear", let's make that clear.
> 
> So let's run through your hypothetical scenario than.
> 
> A Jaguar within a strike package of SU-30MKIs//Mirage 2000 etc would face a lone F-16 ADF Viper?
> 
> Yes, Number 19 is being used as an OCU now, but in war, it will act within a PAF package too, supported by Erieye, Falcon 20 EW and other fighters. The results will be like Feb 27th against a Jaguar.



And where do you expect the ADF viper to be part of the package? Also my point about the ADF vipers was specifically pointed towards someone who claimed Bholari would be a thorn in the foot for IAF and I disagreed. In a war time scenario most likely a BVR capable platform would be transferred there but as it is presently with the ADF F.16's only I don't see it being a pain for the IAF.
I will hope that one of the squadron's which would convert onto block 3 JF-17 is stationed there.

As I said before,the main role of ADF vipers is to train new pilots on F.16's or act as bomb trucks in a permissible environment untill and unless they get upgraded.

Cheers


----------



## Yasser76

Clairvoyant said:


> And where do you expect the ADF viper to be part of the package? Also my point about the ADF vipers was specifically pointed towards someone who claimed Bholari would be a thorn in the foot for IAF and I disagreed. In a war time scenario most likely a BVR capable platform would be transferred there but as it is presently with the ADF F.16's only I don't see it being a pain for the IAF.
> I will hope that one of the squadron's which would convert onto block 3 JF-17 is stationed there.
> 
> As I said before,the main role of ADF vipers is to train new pilots on F.16's or act as bomb trucks in a permissible environment untill and unless they get upgraded.
> 
> Cheers




I give up, easier to try and engage with a 10 year old on this, modern war will not be about clean BVR kills all the time, ADF Vipers are indeed a thorn, especially when directed by AWACS


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## TsAr

@Yasser76 and @Clairvoyant gentleman I think some things are best left for the PAF to ponder. I am sure that they have thought about before putting the ADF's on bholari.

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## ghazi52

"SOLO TURK"

The distinguished guest at the Pakistan Day Parade & Air Show that will take place on 25th March is the SOLO TURK demonstration team, that is the pride in the skies of the Turkish Air Force Command. During the show, F-16 Fighter Jet with special choreography will undertake very difficult & Choppy maneuvers...

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## Clairvoyant

Yasser76 said:


> I give up, easier to try and engage with a 10 year old on this, modern war will not be about clean BVR kills all the time, ADF Vipers are indeed a thorn, especially when directed by AWACS




Next time try being a bit less rude. Also kindly get your math right!!

Cheers


----------



## Yasser76

Clairvoyant said:


> Next time try being a bit less rude. Also kindly get your math right!!
> 
> Cheers



Next time try and think before you post.

Cheers


----------



## ghazi52

Pretty neat.

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## ghazi52

Capitalist

@Corpor8Xploiter

9 Sqn dude packing some mad A2A heat. Quad C-5 Slammers coupled with a pair of M-Winders. The JHMCS sits underutilized on these birds. Sadly.

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## ghazi52

You have each betrothed yourself to the other in love & compassion, righteousness & truth.
In the spirit of Air Force's tradition, you have taken upon yourselves the responsibilities of a deep & loving friendship.
In the presence of the witnesses you have spoken the words & preformed rites that unite your lives.
With the power of God i now pronounce you 'MAN & VIPER'

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## AMRAAM

GriffinsRule said:


> Clearest picture I have seen with the IAF kill marking
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan Air Force General Dynamics F-16BM Fighting Falcon - Photo by Rao Muhammad Farrukh - Falcons.PK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.falcons.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 726090



Just wondering who was the other pilot with SL Hassan Siddique on that day. Shouldn't the kill be attributed to him as well? Don't know how things work inside dual seaters. @airomerix

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## truthfollower

SQ8 said:


> except the PAF never wanted to put the money into getting top neurologists involved but was happy getting all viper pilots go bald


why PAF pilots lips are black? are they allowed to smoke?

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## SQ8

truthfollower said:


> why PAF pilots lips are black? are they allowed to smoke?


What sort of generalization is that?

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## Yasser76

truthfollower said:


> why PAF pilots lips are black? are they allowed to smoke?



WTF? Dude why do you even post on here!?

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## truthfollower

SQ8 said:


> What sort of generalization is that?


when i read your comment on bald paf pilots. It came to my mind from swift retort documentary. And I noticed lips are dark maybe because of smoking. Ok let me find it again.


Yasser76 said:


> WTF? Dude why do you even post on here!?


sorry

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## Windjammer

Yasser76 said:


> Dude? You serious?? You know about the serious issue with the Jaguars engines? These planes are massively under powered, to the point they do not carry a full weapons load. In hot conditions they struggle to take off. If a Jaguar is on a bombing mission it will be the very definition of a sitting duck, it's thrust to weight ration being half that of a F-16


My last neighbour was a former RAF Tornado RIO who participated in the Gulf War, according to him the joke doing round in RAF circles was that it's the curvature of the earth that keeps the Jaguars airborne.

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## truthseeker2010

AMRAAM said:


> Just wondering who was the other pilot with SL Hassan Siddique on that day. Shouldn't the kill be attributed to him as well? Don't know how things work inside dual seaters. @airomerix



2 star air boss of the ops AVM Irfan ahmed the AOC Cent Com at the time.

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## SQ8

truthfollower said:


> when i read your comment on bald paf pilots. It came to my mind from swift retort documentary. And I noticed lips are dark maybe because of smoking. Ok let me find it again.
> 
> sorry


There is no trend and generally smoking isn’t taken as a healthy activity. Most pilots focus on fitness and today’s PAF pilot will often be found with some protien powder and supplements.
Upper body, glutes and neck muscles are focused on.

I dare say many are generally more fit than the generation that commands them ever was in their time.

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## Raider 21

SQ8 said:


> There is no trend and generally smoking isn’t taken as a healthy activity. Most pilots focus on fitness and today’s PAF pilot will often be found with some protien powder and supplements.
> Upper body, glutes and neck muscles are focused on.
> 
> I dare say many are generally more fit than the generation that commands them ever was in their time.


I am strict on that, but I'd have smoking banned in squadrons entirely. Yes, the younger generation of pilots are now enhancing their daily activities with the gym culture brought in. December 2019 I had visited a friend from No. 17 squadron at Peshawar. He asked to show them pull-up exercises. Was very pleased to hear that they take it seriously.

The lower body should also be considered otherwise, many will have their own CG changed for life !!!

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## ghazi52



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## araz

Raider 21 said:


> I am strict on that, but I'd have smoking banned in squadrons entirely. Yes, the younger generation of pilots are now enhancing their daily activities with the gym culture brought in. December 2019 I had visited a friend from No. 17 squadron at Peshawar. He asked to show them pull-up exercises. Was very pleased to hear that they take it seriously.
> 
> The lower body should also be considered otherwise, many will have their own CG changed for life !!!


We had a chap a year senior to us who had concentrated a bit too much on his-upper body. He was at least 6ft 2 inches tall. So while his upper body was really well built up his legs were rather scrawny. He was given the title of bionic macher(mosquito) which still makes me smile.
A

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## ghazi52

*Over Islamabad*

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## Valiant

araz said:


> We had a chap a year senior to us who had concentrated a bit too much on his-upper body. He was at least 6ft 2 inches tall. So while his upper body was really well built up his legs were rather scrawny. He was given the title of bionic macher(mosquito) which still makes me smile.
> A



Bionic Machar is a phenomenal nickname! Thanks for the chuckle, sir!


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## ghazi52

Hello everyone, specially Islamabad!

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## ghazi52

Kis sher ki amad hai k run kaanp raha hai
Run ek taraf charkhe kohan kaanp raha hai
Rustum ka badan zere kafan kaanp raha hai
Har qasre salateene zaman kaanp raha hai

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## PanzerKiel



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## Windjammer



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## WiderMan

*Vipers from 5 & 11 Squadrons escort the outgoing CAS' Cessna 560XL Citation Excel*

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## PanzerKiel

WiderMan said:


> *Vipers from 5 & 11 Squadrons escort the outgoing CAS' Cessna 560XL Citation Excel*
> 
> View attachment 728826
> View attachment 728827
> View attachment 728825
> View attachment 728828
> View attachment 728829


Interestingly, all the Vipers are carrying exactly one sidewinder each, that too on their right most rail .... All...... For a very specific reason.....

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## WiderMan

PanzerKiel said:


> Interestingly, all the Vipers are carrying exactly one sidewinder each, that too on their right most rail .... All...... For a very specific reason.....




Exactly what would that be?

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## Windjammer

Goosebumps....

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## Gripen9

PanzerKiel said:


> Interestingly, all the Vipers are carrying exactly one sidewinder each, that too on their right most rail .... All...... For a very specific reason.....


Was ACM the pilot who shot down IAF Searcher near Lahore in the 90s?

That was the last time we fired a 9L in anger.

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## WiderMan

Gripen9 said:


> Was ACM the pilot who shot down IAF Searcher near Lahore in the 90s?
> 
> That was the last time we fired a 9L in anger.




IIRC it was then-Sqn Ldr Zulfiqar Ayub. Interestingly enough however - #605 was the aircraft used to bring it down.

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## Gripen9

WiderMan said:


> IIRC it was then-Sqn Ldr Zulfiqar Ayub. Interestingly enough however - #605 was the aircraft used to bring it down.
> 
> View attachment 729188


Thanks for that.
@PanzerKiel , please enlighten us to the significance of this symbolism.

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## Ghessan

WiderMan said:


> Exactly what would that be?



do we have a smiley depicting a salute?


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## Windjammer

F-16 First Flight 20 January 1974.
Even after almost 50 years, no other aircraft turns heads like the Viper does.

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## MastanKhan

Windjammer said:


> F-16 First Flight 20 January 1974.
> Even after almost 50 years, no other aircraft turns heads like the Viper does.
> 
> View attachment 730201



Hi,

A thing of beauty is a joy for ever.

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## Incog_nito

Any chance of the remaining 12 F-16s Block-15 along with some more ex-USAF Block-15s with MLU-4 upgrades?

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## airomerix

I think the following two videos might be a little new for some. @Trailer23 Some new stuff for you.

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## ghazi52

*Cheetha*

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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> F-16 First Flight 20 January 1974.
> Even after almost 50 years, no other aircraft turns heads like the Viper does.
> 
> View attachment 730201



Indeed!

For me the most beautiful fighter jet ever.....

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## ghazi52



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## untitled

ghazi52 said:


> *Cheetha*
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 730724


I believe it's a Greek F16. They have the 'danger ejection seat' symbols in red. Our ones are in gray


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## ghazi52

Among the Pakistani Pilots who shot Soviet and Afghan Jets included pilots : 
Shaheen Squadron No.14 
Griffin Squadron No.09 

Among PAF Hero Pilots were: 
Squadron Leader Pervez Marwat 
Lt. Shahi Sikander 
Squadron Leader Khalid 
Squadron Leader Badar 
Squadron Leader Hameed

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## nomi007

If Pak will get it access to block V standard upgrade.
that's will make PAF mostly deadly airforce in the region.

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## Windjammer

*Treat for Pindi Boys as the Block-52D comes in to land at Nur Khan Base.*

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## Yasser76

Windjammer said:


> *Treat for Pindi Boys as the Block-2D comes in to land at Nur Khan Base.*
> 
> View attachment 732014



Nice one, hardly ever see fighters at 'Pindi these days. I do remember when I was young (late 80s), when we would visit and taxi across Chakala there would always be a 4-6 F-6s on QRA near the end of the runway, but guess that is not required anymore.

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## Windjammer

Yasser76 said:


> Nice one, hardly ever see fighters at 'Pindi these days. I do remember when I was young (late 80s), when we would visit and taxi across Chakala there would always be a 4-6 F-6s on QRA near the end of the runway, but guess that is not required anymore.


Last time i saw a detachment there was during the 2002 stand off.
I was in Pakistan during June/July of that year, there were F-7s streaming in and out of Chaklala all day long.

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## Yasser76

Windjammer said:


> Last time i saw a detachment there was during the 2002 stand off.
> I was in Pakistan during June/July of that year, there were F-7s streaming in and out of Chaklala all day long.



I guess now that New Isl airport is open Nur Khan can host more regular fighter detachments, location is very handy for border

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## ghazi52

"F-16 Crew Chiefs Combat Odds To Keep Jets & Operator Safe In Flight"

Some of the tasks crew chiefs are responsible for include basic post-flight, preflight & walk around inspections of the aircraft, acceptance & transfer inspections, ground-handling operations, launch & recovery, & aircraft maintenance ...

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## Windjammer

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1021730574901780

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## Raider 21

ghazi52 said:


> "F-16 Crew Chiefs Combat Odds To Keep Jets & Operator Safe In Flight"
> 
> Some of the tasks crew chiefs are responsible for include basic post-flight, preflight & walk around inspections of the aircraft, acceptance & transfer inspections, ground-handling operations, launch & recovery, & aircraft maintenance ...
> 
> 
> View attachment 732088


The real unsung heroes

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## The Raven

Windjammer said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1021730574901780



Lots of birds flying around in the residential area...a bird strike and loss of aircraft waiting to happen. Airbases need to be located far away from residential areas.

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## Windjammer

The Raven said:


> Lots of birds flying around in the residential area...a bird strike and loss of aircraft waiting to happen. Airbases need to be located far away from residential areas.


True but Nur Khan usually houses Transport wing, Viper landing there is one off.....it usually happens on 23 March.....PAF Chief after leading the flypast land there, quick change and joins the other dignitaries at the Venue to witness the parade.

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1375822558545776642

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## ghazi52



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## Scorpiooo

How much life is left in early block 15 birds that have even gone through mlu


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## Side-Winder

The Raven said:


> Lots of birds flying around in the residential area...a bird strike and loss of aircraft waiting to happen. Airbases need to be located far away from residential areas.



Actually bird strike incidents do happen every now and then, Luckily not fatal for Aircraft most of the times. However an Air Occurrence Report is raised and it's thoroughly investigated. Flight Safety Officer (FSO) on ground and Pilot in air both are responsible to avoid bird strikes. Can't just abandon or relocate the operational bases.

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## Scorpiooo

Side-Winder said:


> Actually bird strike incidents do happen every now and then, Luckily not fatal for Aircraft most of the times. However an Air Occurrence Report is raised and it's thoroughly investigated. Flight Safety Officer (FSO) on ground and Pilot in air both are responsible to avoid bird strikes. Can't just abandon or relocate the operational bases.


Then reduce the numbers of birds near there sensitive areas


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## ghazi52

Like a Shark..................

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## Windjammer

PAF Viper Blasting off For a Night Sortie.

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## iLION12345_1

Scorpiooo said:


> How much life is left in early block 15 birds that have even gone through mlu


They were all modernized in Turkey in just the last few years. A lot of life left in them still. Apart from Rafale there’s nothing in the sub continent to match F16s at the moment.


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## Scorpiooo

But frames life also metter , there frames can max extended to 8000 bcuz for 12000 they need V standard upgrade 


iLION12345_1 said:


> They were all modernized in Turkey in just the last few years. A lot of life left in them still. Apart from Rafale there’s nothing in the sub continent to match F16s at the moment.

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## GriffinsRule

iLION12345_1 said:


> They were all modernized in Turkey in just the last few years. A lot of life left in them still. Apart from Rafale there’s nothing in the sub continent to match F16s at the moment.


Upgraded Mirage-2000s are on par with F-16C/Ds


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## ziaulislam

Not in air to air combat
Radar is better
And MICA is hopelessly outranged by aim120c


GriffinsRule said:


> Upgraded Mirage-2000s are on par with F-16C/Ds

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## iLION12345_1

Scorpiooo said:


> But frames life also metter , there frames can max extended to 8000 bcuz for 12000 they need V standard upgrade


The modernization included frame strengthening and overhaul to increase the lifespan of the airframe.

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## Scorpiooo

GriffinsRule said:


> Upgraded Mirage-2000s are on par with F-16C/Ds


Make sense, secondly Su 30 are not to be forgotten consideing them number IAF


iLION12345_1 said:


> The modernization included frame strengthening and overhaul to increase the lifespan of the airframe.


Yes sir, that why ask what is new frame life after MLU before that all frames have life span of 4000

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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer



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## Ali_Baba

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 735499



Interesting layout - obviously a pure BVR layout with a FLIR/IRST mounted pod?


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## Primus

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 735499


Those CFTs are just.... [emoji108][emoji108][emoji108]


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## ghazi52

The Elite of PAF

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## spectregunship

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 735499



what an amazing sight this is...


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## nomi007



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## m52k85

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 735499


Didnt anyone eles notice? When did Arrows get block 52s???
Sorry my bad. Self delete.

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## Raja Porus

Pardon my ignorance , but I wanted to ask what would be an F16's weapons configuration for strike( not interdiction) against IA armoured columns such as IBGs.

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## omi

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Pardon my ignorance , but I wanted to ask what would be an F16's weapons configuration for strike( not interdiction) against IA armoured columns such as IBGs.


One Al-khalid tank on each hardpoint...dhuzz dhuzz dhuzz

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## PanzerKiel

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Pardon my ignorance , but I wanted to ask what would be an F16's weapons configuration for strike( not interdiction) against IA armoured columns such as IBGs.


There are better, cheaper, efficient and deadlier ways to handle an Indian armored division.

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## Raja Porus

PanzerKiel said:


> There are better, cheaper, efficient and deadlier ways to handle an Indian armored division.


I Know. But there has been much talk of PA using f16s(or other air assets) without committing itself completely against IA especially those f16s in bholari and bases Northern sindh.

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## iLION12345_1

Desert Fox 1 said:


> I Know. But there has been much talk of PA using f16s(or other air assets) without committing itself completely against IA especially those f16s in bholari and Northern sindh.


PAF assets can and will be used for ground strikes (at the moment the mirages are more dedicated to such ops), that is how combined arms warfare works. But against armored formations Multiple rocket systems like Nasr, Fatah and A100 are more effective, plus attack helicopters are specifically for that purpose, hunting armor. 
For the last 3 decades or so Pakistan had a decisive edge over India when it came to Attack helicopters, Pakistan had a large fleet of cobras while India had a few Mi24s, we built on that by also getting Fennecs and Mi35Ms, but then it kind of came crashing down when the AH1Zs were blocked and the Indian apaches were delivered, as those AH1Zs were supposed to help us keep that edge. Now with the T129 being blocked as well, we are at a disadvantage there, one that hopefully we can balance soon with a new acquisition from China or elsewhere.

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## arjunk

PanzerKiel said:


> There are better, cheaper, efficient and deadlier ways to handle an Indian armored division.


Like cluster bombing them to hell using JF-17? Or "terrorist locusts"...

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## Sinnerman108

GriffinsRule said:


> Upgraded Mirage-2000s are on par with F-16C/Ds



OK, True. But in what scenario and Duty ?

The Mirage is by design optimized to intrude and bomb really fast. 
Once those perimeter are removed, then Mirage has problems that F-16 solves. 
But as a design compromise, F-16 is not the best / fastest intruder


----------



## Cookie Monster

PanzerKiel said:


> There are better, cheaper, efficient and deadlier ways to handle an Indian armored division.


@PanzerKiel sir mujhe CBU105 eidee mein de dein.

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## Raja Porus

Which anti-tank cluster munition is used by PAF?

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## nomi007

It is the right time to play the Afghan peace card if we want to upgrade our F-16s to block 72 standards and also get Ah-1z.


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## Blacklight

Ali_Baba said:


> Interesting layout - obviously a pure BVR layout with a FLIR/IRST mounted pod?


Mounted Pod = Sniper Pod
4 Aim120C & 2 AIM-9 Sidewinders

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## Blacklight

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Which anti-tank cluster munition is used by PAF?




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1099945128687529984

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## Goritoes

Its sad that such a beauty and beast machine, and PAF can not get their hands on its latest models, F-16's always kept the balance of Power in S.Asia , I hope America and PAF works towards some sort of deal for 18-36 F-16V's with option of upgrading PAF existing Fleet to V Standards.

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## Waterboy

Blacklight said:


> Mounted Pod = Sniper Pod
> 4 Aim120C & 2 AIM-9 Sidewinders


Sir any updates on new Block 72 vipers for PAF?

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## Blacklight

Waterboy said:


> Sir any updates on new Block 72 vipers for PAF?


Sir @PanzerKiel knows their status better 

On another note, (just my opinion) all *NEW builds *will be Blk70's and not 72's, in light of this:
*GE Aviation awarded four F110 engine contracts worth $707m*

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## Blacklight

PanzerKiel said:


> There are better, cheaper, efficient and deadlier ways to handle an Indian armored division.


By telling them, that you are on the job?

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## Deltadart

Goritoes said:


> Its sad that such a beauty and beast machine, and PAF can not get their hands on its latest models, F-16's always kept the balance of Power in S.Asia , I hope America and PAF works towards some sort of deal for 18-36 F-16V's with option of upgrading PAF existing Fleet to V Standards.


It seems highly unlikely that any of the above will ever come to fruition. However, in case we still have that uncontrolled desire or just desperate to acquire more F16s, or upgrades to the existing fleet, well then it will all depend on what we have to offer in return, (think of musharraf days), and you will have your answer. Let's put it this way; the price will be very steep in national dignity and sovereignty.

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## WiderMan

Blacklight said:


> Sir @PanzerKiel knows their status better
> 
> On another note, (just my opinion) all *NEW builds *will be Blk70's and not 72's, in light of this:
> *GE Aviation awarded four F110 engine contracts worth $707m*




Incorrect.

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## mingle

WiderMan said:


> Incorrect.


He is correct all Blk70 are standard version you can't add anything decided by then Sec Asper there will be no blk72 unless PAF opted V upgrades on used Airframes

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Goritoes said:


> Its sad that such a beauty and beast machine, and PAF can not get their hands on its latest models, F-16's always kept the balance of Power in S.Asia , I hope America and PAF works towards some sort of deal for 18-36 F-16V's with option of upgrading PAF existing Fleet to V Standards.






Deltadart said:


> It seems highly unlikely that any of the above will ever come to fruition. However, in case we still have that uncontrolled desire or just desperate to acquire more F16s, or upgrades to the existing fleet, well then it will all depend on what we have to offer in return, (think of musharraf days), and you will have your answer. Let's put it this way; the price will be very steep in national dignity and sovereignty.


IMHO the PAF will continue pursuing new F-16s, even if the chances are low. 

The PAF will want to use the existing infrastructure, and the original plan (before the earthquake) was for 55 new F-16s. 

I don't think the PAF will succeed, but from AHQ's standpoint, the idea is, 'keep pushing; if we get it, then great, if not, then we just keep moving forward.' It's a due diligence thing at this point.

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## Goritoes

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMHO the PAF will continue pursuing new F-16s, even if the chances are low.
> 
> The PAF will want to use the existing infrastructure, and the original plan (before the earthquake) was for 55 new F-16s.
> 
> I don't think the PAF will succeed, but from AHQ's standpoint, the idea is, 'keep pushing; if we get it, then great, if not, then we just keep moving forward.' It's a due diligence thing at this point.



I think Problem here is that PAF don't want to pay the full price for the fighters, it could be because we don't have money or maybe because US once took Pakistan's money and also never delivered the fighters, instead they get some Wheat . F-16's is very potent fighter even today, with right package and good pilots it can take on any fighter jet including Rafale, Typhoon , Su35 and even to some Degree F-35's , and PAF knows its potential hence they always try to get their hands on some. Chances are very low that we may see more F-16's in PAF but we never know when uncle SAM change their interests in region and their mind about getting cozy with Pakistan.

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## Raja Porus

Blacklight said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1099945128687529984





Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1376485772690399233I counted:
> -10× cluster munitions
> -2×AAMs
> -2×Drop Tanks.
> Certainly it is irreplaceable...
> But what if the drop tanks have to be dropped as 2×cluster munitions on each wing is attached to the drop tanks?


9× cluster munitions on a single mirage!
A single package might be enough for more then an IBG.

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## GriffinsRule

mingle said:


> He is correct all Blk70 are standard version you can't add anything decided by then Sec Asper there will be no blk72 unless PAF opted V upgrades on used Airframes


LM has no issue offering both engines. Why would they limit potential customers with P&W fleets by not offering it as an option?
Nothing out of their pocket.









The F-16 Block 72 for Indonesia: The Ideal Bridge to 5th Gen Capabilities


The F-16 Block 72 is the latest version of the F-16 and delivers cutting-edge technology to the Indonesian Air Force (IDAF) in the most advanced F-16 configuration on the market today.




www.lockheedmartin.com







https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/aero/documents/F-16/Jan20_Product%20Card%20F-16%20Block%207072%20media.pdf



In fact Morocco has ordered Block 72 with P&W engines.






Morocco – F-16 Block 72 New Purchase | Defense Security Cooperation Agency







www.dsca.mil

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## SQ8

Desert Fox 1 said:


> 9× cluster munitions on a single mirage!
> A single package might be enough for more then an IBG.


Provided it gets through for a straight run in and if they all happily line up. IBGs with their embedded Tungskas , shilkas, Akash’s sitting behind Flot along with Manpads will extract a heavy cost on any PAF CAS sortie.

The best way to throw away aircraft is CAS.

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## iLION12345_1

SQ8 said:


> Provided it gets through for a straight run in and if they all happily line up. IBGs with their embedded Tungskas , shilkas, Akash’s sitting behind Flot along with Manpads will extract a heavy cost on any PAF CAS sortie.
> 
> The best way to throw away aircraft is CAS.


There’s a difference between solely an anti-armor bombing mission and CAS, and it’s in the name. CAS is close Air _support_, a part of combined arms warfare, to support the troops on the ground. No jet will ever attack anything by itself. In combined arms the ground forces clear the SAMs for the aircraft and the aircraft clear the armor for the ground forces. Would obviously be unwise to just throw mirages at them until one gets through. The mirages will also have air cover from other aircraft. While the enemy will have the same. And our ground based AD will also be present.

Basically both sides with have everything that the other has doing basically the same thing, it will come down to which side does it better tactically, has the geographical and logistical advantage, has better training and morale, has better technology, so on and so forth.
CAS is not the best way to throw aircraft away, rather it’s the best use of dedicated strike aircraft in a war. That’s why the strongest countries have planes dedicated to CAS. And those aren’t really any better protected against SAMs than our mirages, since those dedicated aircraft are sub-sonic and less maneuverable. They just believe in their combined arms strategies for their aircraft and ground forces to keep each other safe.

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## Blacklight

Desert Fox 1 said:


> 9× cluster munitions on a single mirage!
> A single package might be enough for more then an IBG.


I think 2 on the center-line? 4 each under each wing = 10?

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## Raja Porus

Blacklight said:


> I think 2 on the center-line? 4 each under each wing = 10?
> View attachment 736895
> 
> View attachment 736896


Yes, I mistakenly wrote it from the tweet but I had written 10 in my reply on PDF.

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## Bilal.

SQ8 said:


> Provided it gets through for a straight run in and if they all happily line up. IBGs with their embedded Tungskas , shilkas, Akash’s sitting behind Flot along with Manpads will extract a heavy cost on any PAF CAS sortie.
> 
> The best way to throw away aircraft is CAS.


Is it feasible to develop an REK for Hijara cluster bombs?

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## Blacklight

GriffinsRule said:


> LM has no issue offering both engines. Why would they limit potential customers with P&W fleets by not offering it as an option?
> Nothing out of their pocket.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The F-16 Block 72 for Indonesia: The Ideal Bridge to 5th Gen Capabilities
> 
> 
> The F-16 Block 72 is the latest version of the F-16 and delivers cutting-edge technology to the Indonesian Air Force (IDAF) in the most advanced F-16 configuration on the market today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lockheedmartin.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/aero/documents/F-16/Jan20_Product%20Card%20F-16%20Block%207072%20media.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> In fact Morocco has ordered Block 72 with P&W engines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Morocco – F-16 Block 72 New Purchase | Defense Security Cooperation Agency
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dsca.mil


*How Lockheed Martin plans to speed up sales with commoditised F-16*
5 September 2020

*New F-16s Will All Be Sold In A Single Base Model Configuration With A Standardized Price*
September 10, 2020
_The new standard Viper configuration will have a default set of "avionics, mission systems, an active electronically scanned array [AESA] radar, electronic warfare suite, Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System and an engine," according to FlightGlobal, though it is not clear what those specific systems will be. Lockheed Martin has already been pushing toward standardizing the Viper line with its Block 70/72 F-16s and the related F-16V upgrade package that brings older jets up to a similar configuration. _

*As to NEW PAF Vipers - *
Parde mein rehne do, parda na uthao
Parda jo uth gaya to bhed khul jayega

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## Scorpiooo

Generali


GriffinsRule said:


> LM has no issue offering both engines. Why would they limit potential customers with P&W fleets by not offering it as an option?
> Nothing out of their pocket.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The F-16 Block 72 for Indonesia: The Ideal Bridge to 5th Gen Capabilities
> 
> 
> The F-16 Block 72 is the latest version of the F-16 and delivers cutting-edge technology to the Indonesian Air Force (IDAF) in the most advanced F-16 configuration on the market today.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.lockheedmartin.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/aero/documents/F-16/Jan20_Product%20Card%20F-16%20Block%207072%20media.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> In fact Morocco has ordered Block 72 with P&W engines.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Morocco – F-16 Block 72 New Purchase | Defense Security Cooperation Agency
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dsca.mil


Generalization of GE engine (block 70) means minimizing of cost for export to limited bughat forces.. so they can afford it 

Any force which can afford to pay extra for specialization .. will definitely have option for P&W (block 72) engines and other enhancement ..


Blacklight said:


> *How Lockheed Martin plans to speed up sales with commoditised F-16*
> 5 September 2020
> 
> *New F-16s Will All Be Sold In A Single Base Model Configuration With A Standardized Price*
> September 10, 2020
> _The new standard Viper configuration will have a default set of "avionics, mission systems, an active electronically scanned array [AESA] radar, electronic warfare suite, Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System and an engine," according to FlightGlobal, though it is not clear what those specific systems will be. Lockheed Martin has already been pushing toward standardizing the Viper line with its Block 70/72 F-16s and the related F-16V upgrade package that brings older jets up to a similar configuration. _
> 
> *As to NEW PAF Vipers - *
> Parde mein rehne do, parda na uthao
> Parda jo uth gaya to bhed khul jayega


@Blacklight. See you after long time .. hope everything is well ...

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## Blacklight

Just food for thought, how will this impact existing (and possibly new) F16 users?

*‘Don’t expect more money’ for additional F-35s in FY22, lawmakers tell an embattled Lockheed*
1 day ago

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## Scorpiooo

Blacklight said:


> Just food for thought, how will this impact existing (and possibly new) F16 users?
> 
> *‘Don’t expect more money’ for additional F-35s in FY22, lawmakers tell an embattled Lockheed*
> 1 day ago


More money for GE and LM 
For old GE user it will benefit due to low bughat cost ... no change in infrastructure 

For old P&W (like Pakistan) have to create new infrastructure for GE engines maintenance.. which mean increase cost upfront .. 

For New user they have no concern as they have to create entirely new infrastructure.... instead this block 70 ( bughat and standardized) version will be ecnomical and fusible for them to operate and maintain

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## arjunk

I expect nothing less than this for all the disappointments we've endured. I hope it fulfils all the fanboys' wishlists:




Who needs a nuke when you can carry 4,640kg of explosives in 1 flight...

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## GriffinsRule

Blacklight said:


> *How Lockheed Martin plans to speed up sales with commoditised F-16*
> 5 September 2020
> 
> *New F-16s Will All Be Sold In A Single Base Model Configuration With A Standardized Price*
> September 10, 2020
> _The new standard Viper configuration will have a default set of "avionics, mission systems, an active electronically scanned array [AESA] radar, electronic warfare suite, Automatic Ground Collision Avoidance System and an engine," according to FlightGlobal, though it is not clear what those specific systems will be. Lockheed Martin has already been pushing toward standardizing the Viper line with its Block 70/72 F-16s and the related F-16V upgrade package that brings older jets up to a similar configuration. _
> 
> *As to NEW PAF Vipers - *
> Parde mein rehne do, parda na uthao
> Parda jo uth gaya to bhed khul jayega


Even your link mentions both block 70 and 72 ...

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## Raja Porus

Blacklight said:


> *As to NEW PAF Vipers - *


😯😯😲🤔🤔

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## HRK

Bilal. said:


> Is it feasible to develop an REK for Hijara cluster bombs?


GB-6 OR GB-6A is the answer of your query

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## Bilal.

HRK said:


> GB-6 OR GB-6A is the answer of your query


Yes. But I was thinking of something cheap(er) for mass deployment. As in thousands.

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## Windjammer



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## Blacklight

HRK said:


> GB-6 OR GB-6A is the answer of your query





Bilal. said:


> Yes. But I was thinking of something cheap(er) for mass deployment. As in thousands.

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## ghazi52



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## SQ8

L


iLION12345_1 said:


> There’s a difference between solely an anti-armor bombing mission and CAS, and it’s in the name. CAS is close Air _support_, a part of combined arms warfare, to support the troops on the ground. No jet will ever attack anything by itself. In combined arms the ground forces clear the SAMs for the aircraft and the aircraft clear the armor for the ground forces. Would obviously be unwise to just throw mirages at them until one gets through. The mirages will also have air cover from other aircraft. While the enemy will have the same. And our ground based AD will also be present.
> 
> Basically both sides with have everything that the other has doing basically the same thing, it will come down to which side does it better tactically, has the geographical and logistical advantage, has better training and morale, has better technology, so on and so forth.
> CAS is not the best way to throw aircraft away, rather it’s the best use of dedicated strike aircraft in a war. That’s why the strongest countries have planes dedicated to CAS. And those aren’t really any better protected against SAMs than our mirages, since those dedicated aircraft are sub-sonic and less maneuverable. They just believe in their combined arms strategies for their aircraft and ground forces to keep each other safe.


I can assure you an A-10 can run circles around a Mirage at 300knots. Please read into what was the average life expectancy in a CAS mission versus others - and what the Israelis faced in 73. Even with combined assets providing support most aircraft that were downed or hit in the Gulf war were taken out during repeated loitering in the area which is what CAS missions envision.
CAS and BAI sorties count for more aircraft hit than interdiction sorties, even though interdiction sorties are vastly more common.

The high-threat environment may, in fact, be the best argument for land based precision artillery, which flies faster, can be massed more effectively, is less subject to intercept, and is substantially cheaper than any conventional, air-delivered option.

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## Windjammer

The Triple Rack attachment for PAF F-16s is there but seldom utilised to full capacity specially when carrying the LGBs.
But as can be seen, it can be done.

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## Raja Porus

Blacklight said:


> View attachment 736996
> 
> View attachment 736997





HRK said:


> GB-6 OR GB-6A is the answer of your query


It has a reported range of 130 kms and is stealthy,. Is it true?

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## HRK

Desert Fox 1 said:


> It has a reported range of 130 kms and is stealthy,. Is it true?



GB-6*A* have 120+ km while GB-6 is believed to be around +60 Km range and reportedly both versions are stealthy

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## Raja Porus

Returning from CAP with,
4×AIM-120
2×AIM-9M

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## Scorpiooo

Any expert can share how many active sqr of F16 we have, what the strength in term of aircraft of each sqr.

In my limited information we have 
44 - F16 A/B block 15 MLU
13 - F16 A/B block 15 ADF
18 - F16 C/D block 52 +

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## The Raven

Given the fact that Pakistan can't even fully pay for a few Zulus, paying in full for new Vipers is unlikely, and with the US now effectively out of Afghanistan, they're not going to want to subsidise any purchases for Pakistan, there's nothing in it for them. The most the PAF can hope for is used examples upgraded to V standard, which might be within their budget.


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## Reichmarshal

who said Pak cant pay for them !!
Pakistan does not want to pay for them as the u.s owes Pakistan money in billions and hence we want this payment to come out of that. if not then we don't want anything from the u.s.

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## The Raven

Reichmarshal said:


> who said Pak cant pay for them !!
> Pakistan does not want to pay for them as the u.s owes Pakistan money in billions and hence we want this payment to come out of that. if not then we don't want anything from the u.s.



Because there's other projects on the go, aside from Block-3 JF-17 and Project Azm.

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## Scorpiooo

The Raven said:


> Because there's other projects on the go, aside from Block-3 JF-17 and Project Azm.


Can share some information about 3rd project...


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## Akh1112

Scorpiooo said:


> Can share some information about 3rd project...



well, theres a new AShM program, a new powered A2G munition program, some stuff going on at PAC (i cant really give you much more than that unfortunately) aside from AZM and JF-17B3. Theres also a midget sub program and of course, Al Khalid 2 alongside Jinnah Class ffg. This is just an example of a few projects.

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## Reichmarshal

The Raven said:


> Because there are other projects on the go, aside from Block-3 JF-17 and Project Azm.


the platforms from the u.s don't figure very prominently in Pakistan's plans. if they come via CSF then fine, if we have to pay for it from our own pocket, we don't want them.
other projects have nothing to do with wt the u.s owes. Those projects are running on their own steam.

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## Scorpiooo

Akh1112 said:


> well, theres a new AShM program, a new powered A2G munition program, some stuff going on at PAC (i cant really give you much more than that unfortunately) aside from AZM and JF-17B3. Theres also a midget sub program and of course, Al Khalid 2 alongside Jinnah Class ffg. This is just an example of a few projects.


Thanks for sharing 

Are these not fall understand umbrella of project azm .. IMO project azm have multiple programs in it


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## air marshal



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## Primus

arjunk said:


> I expect nothing less than this for all the disappointments we've endured. I hope it fulfils all the fanboys' wishlists:
> View attachment 736931
> 
> Who needs a nuke when you can carry 4,640kg of explosives in 1 flight...


'What the hell?' - spy from TF2


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## Scorpiooo

Reichmarshal said:


> the platforms from the u.s don't figure very prominently in Pakistan's plans. if they come via CSF then fine, if we have to pay for it from our own pocket, we don't want them.
> other projects have nothing to do with wt the u.s owes. Those projects are running on their own steam.


Do you really think CSF will given for F16, only option can given is substitute cost with credit .
We have pay them from our own pocket or some others pocket. 

Dont forget PAF and its babas love for F16 that will not be going till one to 2 decades 

If there any chance of new or EDA f16 then they should come with aim120 C7 and D options, then they will fruitful.. as now air was is all about BRV range and capabilities

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## krash

Blacklight said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1099945128687529984



What, they couldn't find another fuel tank for the center station to fit two more CBUs on there?

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## Windjammer

*Bird Of Prey Sits Menacingly in It's Nest at Shahbaz.*

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## ghazi52



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## TsAr

The Raven said:


> Given the fact that Pakistan can't even fully pay for a few Zulus, paying in full for new Vipers is unlikely, and with the US now effectively out of Afghanistan, they're not going to want to subsidise any purchases for Pakistan, there's nothing in it for them. The most the PAF can hope for is used examples upgraded to V standard, which might be within their budget.


Americans are planning to pull forces out of Afghanistan but they are also looking for bases around Afghanistan as they do not want to Al-qaeda or daesh to take over after they leave. In short they are leaving but still have interest in Afghanistan, so they will still need Pakistan.

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## Reichmarshal

This al Qaeda/ISIS talk is nothing but pure bs. They had one mission all along n that was to neutralize Pakistan n they have failed in that ( no thanks to us).

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## The Raven

TsAr said:


> Americans are planning to pull forces out of Afghanistan but they are also looking for bases around Afghanistan as they do not want to Al-qaeda or daesh to take over after they leave. In short they are leaving but still have interest in Afghanistan, so they will still need Pakistan.



That's just wishful thinking on the part of Pakistan.


Reichmarshal said:


> This al Qaeda/ISIS talk is nothing but pure bs. They had one mission all along n that was to neutralize Pakistan n they have failed in that ( no thanks to us).



There's easier ways to "neutralise" Pakistan than spending over 20 years in Afghanistan.

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## araz

Reichmarshal said:


> This al Qaeda/ISIS talk is nothing but pure bs. They had one mission all along n that was to neutralize Pakistan n they have failed in that ( no thanks to us).


The reason was to access the central asian energy resources along with keeping an eye on China. The mujahideen have ensured both missions have failed.
Nothing to do with Pakistan neither was Pakistan the target at least this time.
A

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## Raja Porus

araz said:


> The mujahideen have ensured both missions have failed.
> Nothing to do with Pakistan


Lolllzzz






The Raven said:


> There's easier ways to "neutralise" Pakistan than spending over 20 years in Afghanistan


Like??


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## Scorpiooo

Dear all brothers this thread is related to F16 and releted for PAF ... 
please keep it relevant topic.. just a humble request

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## Reichmarshal

The Raven said:


> That's just wishful thinking on the part of Pakistan.
> 
> 
> There's easier ways to "neutralise" Pakistan than spending over 20 years in Afghanistan.


They have been at it for the last 40 years straight

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## Reichmarshal

araz said:


> The mujahideen have ensured both missions have failed.
> Nothing to do with Pakistan neither was Pakistan the target at least this time.
> A



If their were no Pakistan behind the mujahedeen than their would have been no mujahedeen to begin with.
They were organized, trained and lead by PA personal.

So no Pakistan then no Afghan jihad against the Soviets or the yanks. 

Their is more to it than wt meets the eye.

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## araz

Reichmarshal said:


> If their were no Pakistan behind the mujahedeen than their would have been no mujahedeen to begin with.
> They were organized, trained and lead by PA personal.
> 
> So no Pakistan then no Afghan jihad against the Soviets or the yanks.
> 
> Their is more to it than wt meets the eye.


Agree to the organization but Jehad was being waged even before Pakistan stepped in in the late 70s. During the US INVASION to which I specifically referred there was no help from Pakistan. One thing we need to be aware of is that arms and ammo and organization is a need but the Afghan spirit to wage jehad was what won them both the wars. There are other factors mainly terrain and the ruggedness of it. The awareness of how to utilize the terrain to one's advantage cannot be taught by outsiders. 
We Pakistanis have had a role but to say that there would have been no jehad without Pakistan is a fallacy.
A

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## The Raven

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Like??



Pakistani politics and religion.


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## ziaulislam

araz said:


> The reason was to access the central asian energy resources along with keeping an eye on China. The mujahideen have ensured both missions have failed.
> Nothing to do with Pakistan neither was Pakistan the target at least this time.
> A


Hard to beleieve central asian energy is that important
Since USA has unlimited energy itself due to shale and unlimited control on arabs while the world is moving towards renewables and green hydrogen anyway

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## Reichmarshal

araz said:


> Agree to the organization but Jehad was being waged even before Pakistan stepped in in the late 70s. During the US INVASION to which I specifically referred there was no help from Pakistan. One thing we need to be aware of is that arms and ammo and organization is a need but the Afghan spirit to wage jehad was what won them both the wars. There are other factors mainly terrain and the ruggedness of it. The awareness of how to utilize the terrain to one's advantage cannot be taught by outsiders.
> We Pakistanis have had a role but to say that there would have been no jehad without Pakistan is a fallacy.
> A


They were organized, trained and led by PA personal.
If this does not tell u nothing will.

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## ziaulislam

Also south china is where china need to be checked not the barren west china

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## Raja Porus

I'd suggest this book to everyone who is interested in the proxy war between US and Pakistan. One thing I find interesting in this book is the beauty with which this develops the relation between terror in Pakistani and attacks on ISAF/Afghan/Northern Alliance in Afghanistan.

Also there is a reason why US troops haven't been able to push in Nimruz, Zabul and Helmand... Why? Because they all border Pakistan and if US does then separatist movements in Balochistan will get stronger. Need more proof?

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## SQ8

Meanwhile - the F-16’s kill switch may be active now (at least this might bring the thread back)

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## StormBreaker

SQ8 said:


> Meanwhile - the F-16’s kill switch may be active now (at least this might bring the thread back)


Bro,
Don’t understand why you guys even make statements when these statements are actually encrypted and un-understandable 😑😑😑.

More of a teasing poor souls


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## SQ8

StormBreaker said:


> Bro,
> Don’t understand why you guys even make statements when these statements are actually encrypted and un-understandable 😑😑😑.
> 
> More of a teasing poor souls


There is nothing encrypted about the dreaded kill switch. It is as legendary and mythical as the 9sq griffins.
On another note - interesting article in Combat Aircraft magazine on the rcs reduction measures for F-16. Both Have Glass and its follow programs could be interesting studies for the PAF.

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## Tipu7

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMHO the PAF will continue pursuing new F-16s, even if the chances are low.
> 
> The PAF will want to use the existing infrastructure, and the original plan (before the earthquake) was for 55 new F-16s.
> 
> I don't think the PAF will succeed, but from AHQ's standpoint, the idea is, 'keep pushing; if we get it, then great, if not, then we just keep moving forward.' It's a due diligence thing at this point.


PAF wants F16s in sufficient numbers. Mixture of old and new birds. There are certain capability gaps which cannot be filled by non-western birds.
The Eastern options were (and still are) backup plan and political leverage. The issues (still unresolved?) are about political and strategic 'mismatches' between Pakistan and United States. More sync is required between Islamabad and Washington related to Afghanistan and emerging regional power politics. (Quad etc)

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## mingle

Tipu7 said:


> PAF wants F16s in sufficient numbers. Mixture of old and new birds. There are certain capability gaps which cannot be filled by non-western birds.
> The Eastern options were (and still are) backup plan and political leverage. The issues (still unresolved?) are about political and strategic 'mismatches' between Pakistan and United States. More sync is required between Islamabad and Washington related to Afghanistan and emerging regional power politics. (Quad etc)


If things moves along well my ideal number would be 150-160


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## Scorpiooo

Tipu7 said:


> PAF wants F16s in sufficient numbers. Mixture of old and new birds. There are certain capability gaps which cannot be filled by non-western birds.
> The Eastern options were (and still are) backup plan and political leverage. The issues (still unresolved?) are about political and strategic 'mismatches' between Pakistan and United States. More sync is required between Islamabad and Washington related to Afghanistan and emerging regional power politics. (Quad etc)


Afghanistan is key, if government play in sensibility they can get positive output in term of defense articles specifically f16s


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## Tipu7

mingle said:


> If things moves along well my ideal number would be 150-160


No, not that many.

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## Scorpiooo

A


mingle said:


> If things moves along well my ideal number would be 150-160


At max 2 sqr

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## mingle

Scorpiooo said:


> A
> 
> At max 2 sqr


Two are low Atleast 55-65 jets PAF should add will help us to retire Some Mirages as well

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## TsAr

The Raven said:


> That's just wishful thinking on the part of Pakistan.


its not wishful thinking my friend, just read what Gen. Kenneth F. McKenzie Jr said in the latest pentagon briefing.


araz said:


> *Agree to the organization but Jehad was being waged even before Pakistan stepped in in the late 70s*. During the US INVASION to which I specifically referred there was no help from Pakistan. One thing we need to be aware of is that arms and ammo and organization is a need but the Afghan spirit to wage jehad was what won them both the wars. There are other factors mainly terrain and the ruggedness of it. The awareness of how to utilize the terrain to one's advantage cannot be taught by outsiders.
> We Pakistanis have had a role but to say that there would have been no jehad without Pakistan is a fallacy.
> A


Agree on the bold part, even before the soviets invaded into to Afghanistan, mujahedeen's started to raise there heads against the liberal Afghan govt policies. Even though it was no where near the agitation that was there at the time of USSR invasion, obviously with help from Pakistan.

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## khanasifm

TsAr said:


> its not wishful thinking my friend, just read what Gen. Kenneth F. McKenzie Jr said in the latest pentagon briefing.
> 
> Agree on the bold part, even before the soviets invaded into to Afghanistan, mujahedeen's started to raise there heads against the liberal Afghan govt policies. Even though it was no where near the agitation that was there at the time of USSR invasion, obviously with help from Pakistan.



The country is buying jf-17 and other stuff on Chinese loans and cannot afford western gizmos on cash or loans [emoji383] cannot pay of its loans already piled up, in imf for last 30/40 years ans decades 

Not sure what is this f-16 mantra [emoji1272] based on ?

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## TsAr

khanasifm said:


> The country is buying jf-17 and other stuff on Chinese loans and cannot afford western gizmos on cash or loans [emoji383] cannot pay of its loans already piled up, in imf for last 30/40 years ans decades
> 
> Not sure what is this f-16 mantra [emoji1272] based on ?


how did PAF manage to get the 70 plus F-16's in the first place, as far as i remember our economic situation was never in green...

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## Scorpiooo

We have 85 F16 till now


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## CHI RULES

khanasifm said:


> The country is buying jf-17 and other stuff on Chinese loans and cannot afford western gizmos on cash or loans [emoji383] cannot pay of its loans already piled up, in imf for last 30/40 years ans decades
> 
> Not sure what is this f-16 mantra [emoji1272] based on ?



The CPEC is now operational and people with some know how can tell how much beneficial it is so far even without economic zones, I wonder where this money is going. Further is it true that JF17s are manufactured against Chinese loan. Meanwhile there are news that China is providing ammo to Pak on installments meanwhile credit line provided is also in form of soft loans. One should also not forget suspended coalition funds which cannot be considered as loan but a debt on US side for terrorism and infrastructure destruction in Pakistan.

Unfortunately after Gen Zia and for some part during Benazir Govt Pakistan has never played it's cards rationally. A strong lobbying and firm stance by foreign ministry can play an important role which looks absent even in PTI govt, Shah Mehmood is nothing more than B class copy of Sultan Rahi. We are unable to get so far AH1z, F16 block 70 or even V upgrades, the worst scenario is reports are there that engines for Philippine's T129 are approved meanwhile we are still wait list.

No one can deny that if PAF has proven it;s worth with old F16s blocks what a havoc they can create with newer blocks.

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## Euro fighter

Scorpiooo said:


> We have 85 F16 till now




No you dont you have 73

18 block 52
55 F16/A/B some of these had a MLU but not all of them.


The biggest headache for PAF is your best air asset is USA origin who is now a strategic ally of India
It means in a war scenario no spares
USA will do all it can to prevent the war escalating and will withhold spares and force negotiation
You simply cant rely on F16 long term.

In contrast if South Koreans Japanease ot Taiwan went to war against China the USA would pour in support for F16s operations 

This handicapp is massive for PAF long term this is why you keep looking to china you need uninterupted supply of parts during war not sanctions

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## Scorpiooo

Euro fighter said:


> No you dont you have 73
> 
> 18 block 52
> 55 F16/A/B some of these had a MLU but not all of them.
> 
> 
> The biggest headache for PAF is your best air asset is USA origin who is now a strategic ally of India
> It means in a war scenario no spares
> USA will do all it can to prevent the war escalating and will withhold spares and force negotiation
> You simply cant rely on F16 long term.
> 
> In contrast if South Koreans Japanease ot Taiwan went to war against China the USA would pour in support for F16s operations
> 
> This handicapp is massive for PAF long term this is why you keep looking to china you need uninterupted supply of parts during war not sanctions


85 was total number including the ones we list till now


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## Euro fighter

Scorpiooo said:


> 85 was total number including the ones we list till now




Wrong 

you have 73 

you may have had 80+ delivdered but 10 F16 have been lost since 1990 in accidents


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## Primus

Scorpiooo said:


> We have 85 F16 till now


75*

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## Primus

Euro fighter said:


> No you dont you have 73
> 
> 18 block 52
> 55 F16/A/B some of these had a MLU but not all of them.
> 
> 
> The biggest headache for PAF is your best air asset is USA origin who is now a strategic ally of India
> It means in a war scenario no spares
> USA will do all it can to prevent the war escalating and will withhold spares and force negotiation
> You simply cant rely on F16 long term.
> 
> In contrast if South Koreans Japanease ot Taiwan went to war against China the USA would pour in support for F16s operations
> 
> This handicapp is massive for PAF long term this is why you keep looking to china you need uninterupted supply of parts during war not sanctions


75*

27 f16am
17 f16bm
9 f16a adf
4 f16b adf
12 f16c 52
6 f16d 52

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## Scorpiooo

Euro fighter said:


> No you dont you have 73
> 
> 18 block 52
> 55 F16/A/B some of these had a MLU but not all of them.
> 
> 
> The biggest headache for PAF is your best air asset is USA origin who is now a strategic ally of India
> It means in a war scenario no spares
> USA will do all it can to prevent the war escalating and will withhold spares and force negotiation
> You simply cant rely on F16 long term.
> 
> In contrast if South Koreans Japanease ot Taiwan went to war against China the USA would pour in support for F16s operations
> 
> This handicapp is massive for PAF long term this is why you keep looking to china you need uninterupted supply of parts during war not sanctions


Dont worry PAA already in process of alternative from China

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## GriffinsRule

CHI RULES said:


> The CPEC is now operational and people with some know how can tell how much beneficial it is so far even without economic zones, I wonder where this money is going. Further is it true that JF17s are manufactured against Chinese loan. Meanwhile there are news that China is providing ammo to Pak on installments meanwhile credit line provided is also in form of soft loans. One should also not forget suspended coalition funds which cannot be considered as loan but a debt on US side for terrorism and infrastructure destruction in Pakistan.
> 
> Unfortunately after Gen Zia and for some part during Benazir Govt Pakistan has never played it's cards rationally. A strong lobbying and firm stance by foreign ministry can play an important role which looks absent even in PTI govt, Shah Mehmood is nothing more than B class copy of Sultan Rahi. We are unable to get so far AH1z, F16 block 70 or even V upgrades, the worst scenario is reports are there that engines for Philippine's T129 are approved meanwhile we are still wait list.
> 
> No one can deny that if PAF has proven it;s worth with old F16s blocks what a havoc they can create with newer blocks.


You can also look at the approval for Philippine with Quad and China in mind. US is desperate to mend or strengthen its relations with SE Asian nations so this approval will earn them favor for trying to base Marines there.

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## ghazi52



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## Scorpiooo

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 739014


Hope we can upgrade them to V standard..one day

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## Windjammer

Scorpiooo said:


> Hope we can upgrade them to V standard..one day


That's not a PAF aircraft.

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## Windjammer

The Sleek Beauty incorporates firepower of unimaginable proportions.

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## ghazi52

Protecting Motherland 24/7

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## DrWatson775

ghazi52 said:


> Protecting Motherland 24/7
> 
> 
> View attachment 739166


Those in PAF who convinced the US and Pak govt to get AIM120s are no less than absolute heroes. Stellar service for the nation has many forms. Miandad ka Chaka!

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## Scorpiooo

DrWatson775 said:


> Those in PAF who convinced the US and Pak govt to get AIM120s are no less than absolute heroes. Stellar service for the nation has many forms. Miandad ka Chaka!


Now we need C7 and D variants of aim120


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## JamD

ghazi52 said:


> Protecting Motherland 24/7
> 
> 
> View attachment 739166


Is it me or for the past couple of years we have been seeing a lot of F-16s flying with 4 AIM-120's each? Why not use JF-17's and SD-10s (which can be readily bought unlike AIM-120) for these missions and conserve the flight hours on these missiles?

If what I'm speculating is true then the following may be true:
1. PAF expects to get more AIM-120s in the near future 
2. PAF expects to retire/replace F-16s soon - yes, I know what I said.

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## m52k85

JamD said:


> Is it me or for the past couple of years we have been seeing a lot of F-16s flying with 4 AIM-120's each? Why not use JF-17's and SD-10s (which can be readily bought unlike AIM-120) for these missions and conserve the flight hours on these missiles?
> 
> If what I'm speculating is true then the following may be true:
> 1. PAF expects to get more AIM-120s in the near future
> 2. PAF expects to retire/replace F-16s soon - yes, I know what I said.


I was thinking the samething when I saw the picture and hadn't read your post.

Another reason could be because we were conserving them so much since we got them that now they have a lot of on-wing time remaining, lets say given our average Viper flight times in a year, if they have 10 years of wing time left, PAF expects that by that time Aim-120 c-5s will be superseded by better AAMs in the sub-continent.

I dont think retiring F-16s is a consideration, by that time we will either be hoping for the next iterations of AMRAAMs or at worst new/ refurbished c-5s.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> Is it me or for the past couple of years we have been seeing a lot of F-16s flying with 4 AIM-120's each? Why not use JF-17's and SD-10s (which can be readily bought unlike AIM-120) for these missions and conserve the flight hours on these missiles?
> 
> If what I'm speculating is true then the following may be true:
> 1. PAF expects to get more AIM-120s in the near future
> 2. PAF expects to retire/replace F-16s soon - yes, I know what I said.


The F-16A/B MLUs are reaching their manufacturer-advised airframe age too, but I don't think the PAF need worry about replacing them that soon. For example, Canada is keeping its F/A-18C/Ds for the long haul too (50 years from 2032). So, it's doable. But with each passing year, the value of upgrading the A/Bs drops as the remaining life diminishes (unless there's a new SLEP available).

I think the PAF is hoping to replace the F-16A/Bs with a twin-engine NGFA -- e.g., the TFX or J-35/J-21 -- starting from the early-to-mid-2030s. Basically, the F-16s and Mirage ROSEs form our offensive edge, and they're also our oldest aircraft. I imagine a large twin-engine fighter with internal bays would be the PAF's ideal view of an offensive air-to-air and air-to-surface operations.

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## ARMalik

The number of F-16s in PAF is around 75, and for once I am glad that PAF did not get many more of these F-16s. I believe that with time, *these F-16s will be slowly disposed off.* The main reasons are limitations to upgrades to the existing systems due to US unwillingness, along with Political, and strategic. 

The days of F-16s in PAF will come to end, and I will be one of the blokes celebrating this, and saying thank God !

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

ARMalik said:


> The number of F-16s in PAF is around 75, and for once I am glad that PAF did not get many more of these F-16s. I believe that with time, *these F-16s will be slowly disposed off.* The main reasons are limitations to upgrades to the existing systems due to US unwillingness, along with Political, and strategic.
> 
> The days of F-16s in PAF will come to end, and I will be one of the blokes celebrating this, and saying thank God !


Yep, but given the critical role they play (and their legacy), I imagine the fighter next-up will be an NGFA from China or Turkey. I think -- despite being a carrier-ops design -- even the J-35 could be of interest because it'd offer salt-erosion-proofing, so it'd be of value for our maritime ops.

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## RAMPAGE

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> That is an absolutely thoughtless analysis.
> 
> Why don't you kids think with your brains.


It is _your _post that is devoid of any thought. Read it again.

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## Reichmarshal

PAF has around 75 F16 of different blocks, assuming all are bvr capable including the adf version.

we bought 500 aim 120, so that means each ac has 6.66 missiles.
so in a shooting war after a week their wont be any bvr missiles available for our f 16 fleet. all that assuming we still have 500 aim 120


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## arjunk

Reichmarshal said:


> we bought 500 aim 120, so that means each ac has 6.66 missiles.


We have exactly enough to fully load every F-16 of ours with AIM-120C only once? Perhaps we should try getting 250 more while the US leaves Afghanistan.

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## Windjammer

Reichmarshal said:


> PAF has around 75 F16 of different blocks, assuming all are bvr capable including the adf version.
> 
> we bought 500 aim 120, so that means each ac has 6.66 missiles.
> so in a shooting war after a week their wont be any bvr missiles available for our f 16 fleet. all that assuming we still have 500 aim 120


In a shooting war, the F-16s are not going to fight all the battles neither we will be relying on just AMRAAMs.
And say we fire off all of around 500 rounds, they should decimate between 450 to 500 enemy aircraft.....breaking the enemy's back.....highly unlikely the enemy would want to continue fight after this.....

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## Reichmarshal

with a disparity of more than 2:1, they will be firing all their aim 120 within a week and I highly doubt they will all be hitting their targets ie for various reasons, long debate that.
wasay please check PAF 6+1 strategy/plans according to PAF own expected attrition.

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## Windjammer

Worth also remembering that while an F-16 can carry half a dozen missiles including four BVRs....while say the SU-30 can be equipped with up to a dozen rounds mostly BVRs......but it took just one AMRAAM to kill the myth.

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## VkdIndian

Windjammer said:


> And say we fire off all of around 500 rounds, they should decimate between 450 to 500 enemy aircraft


95% - 100% success rate in achieving kills that too in BVR environment? 
Doesn’t sound feasible.


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## Tipu7

Most of the F16-AMRAAM pics we see are from times when India and Pakistan were engaged in military crisis which continued for months and saw active shadow boxing by IAF and PAF. 

And no, F16s are not going any where. Not even the ADF ones. 

For PAF, Aim120-C5 is far more trust worthy missile than SD-10/A.

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## Reichmarshal

only a fool would underestimate ones, enemy. 
and in our case, one which is bigger, better armed, and backed by all your former circassian friends.

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## Raja Porus

Reichmarshal said:


> with a disparity of more than 2:1, they will be firing all their aim 120 within a week and I highly doubt they will all be hitting their targets ie for various reasons, long debate that.
> wasay please check PAF 6+1 strategy/plans according to PAF own expected attrition.


I asked the same question,


Desert Fox 1 said:


> We have almost 500 AMRAAMS right? So if we have almost 70 f16s( keeping it simple for easier calculations) so it means for every f16 we have only 7 AMRAAMS and for every squadron we have almost 84 AMRAAMS ( if there are 12 f16s in a sqn) . Won't they get depleted quickly during war ( talking strictly of BVR engagements with regards to f16s and ignoring jft)? If this has been discussed earlier then please guide me to that thread
> Pardon my ignorance please if I have made any mistake.





VkdIndian said:


> 95% - 100% success rate in achieving kills that too in BVR environment?
> Doesn’t sound feasible.


Even with only 50% success rate we will be able to knock out 250 frontline fighters.


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## gangsta_rap

Reichmarshal said:


> and backed by all your former circassian friends.


key point


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## Windjammer

VkdIndian said:


> 95% - 100% success rate in achieving kills that too in BVR environment?
> Doesn’t sound feasible.


From past records, it sits at around 80%.... with passage of time, there are better gadgets at play.


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## Scorpiooo

Tipu7 said:


> Most of the F16-AMRAAM pics we see are from times when India and Pakistan were engaged in military crisis which continued for months and saw active shadow boxing by IAF and PAF.
> 
> And no, F16s are not going any where. Not even the ADF ones.
> 
> For PAF, Aim120-C5 is far more trust worthy missile than SD-10/A.


There is always have chances to have c7 as well in future untill Americans do not exit Afghanistan or even slight chamces of D as well


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## Reichmarshal

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Even with only 50% success rate we will be able to knock out 250 frontline fighters.



In a shooting war* between two equally matched foes,* the success rate would be around 25-30% at best, as there is yet to be a weapon that would be a be all end all of the air warfare and bvr like all such overhyped weapons before it proved less than wt was anticipated from them.
A good example was the f-4 phantom which when conceived was built without a gun, as back then with the advent of air-to-air missiles guns were thought "obsolete".
But with subsequent engagements over Vietnam proved the folly of this decision and later on an external gun was added to it.
This continues to date and even 5th gen ac like the raptor and the f35 come armed with an internal gun.
Airforces worldwide develop tactics to beat bvr missiles, which allow the pilots to get in close, and merge. the distances involved between Pakistan n India are not that great and ac will merge very quickly, even coming into gun range.
The defense industry works because it first develops a weapon and then develops a counter to it.

had bvr been the silver bullet of air warfare, they could just easily mount 50 or a 100 on say a c130. and shoot the crap out of one's enemy at long ranges. but it does not work that way.

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## Reichmarshal

gangsta_rap said:


> key point


those friends can do a lot of damage to make sure their equipment in our armed forces does not produce the desired result eg all our caucasian friends have to do is mess with our GPS coordinates and then we will see how well the mid-course updates on our 120c5 work, giving PAF that magic figure of 90 % kill probability

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## Reichmarshal

Windjammer said:


> From past records, it sits at around 80%.... with passage of time, there are better gadgets at play.
> 
> View attachment 739521


in his autobiography, Norman Schwarzkopf says that the Russians and then the french only taught the Iraqi pilots to take off and land, and by name, he mentions that the Iraqis had employed Pakistani instructors to teach the Iraqi tactics but the Russians would not let them near the Iraqis.
so in the face of such disparities, these numbers don't really count or matter.

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## Euro fighter

Windjammer said:


> In a shooting war, the F-16s are not going to fight all the battles neither we will be relying on just AMRAAMs.
> And say we fire off all of around 500 rounds, they should decimate between 450 to 500 enemy aircraft.....breaking the enemy's back.....highly unlikely the enemy would want to continue fight after this.....




Err ............Your assuming a kill ratio of 100% .............Which is hillarious
You tried 4 or 5 Amraams in Feb 2019 ..............They all missed the su30mki

The average kill ratio in BVR combat is any where between 10% and 20% max.
This is why the west are concentrating on improving missles eccm and stealth and speed more than range . They understand the key is NEZ ie no escape Zone
Bolting on range is useless on its ownn.

Another arrogant almost foolish conclusion you made was that each and very F16 will wn every BVR engagment. The reality is the enemy has over 450 fighters everybit as good as the F16 or better
36 rafale with Reb2 Aesa radar Meteore & mica bvrs
45 mirage2000-5 with mica Bvrs
63 Mig29 upg with zhuk Aesa radar new R771 and R27E BVRS
270 Su30mki with Pesa Radar R771/RE27/Astra mk1 bvrs
25 Tejas mk1 with Derby BVR and soon Astra mk1 BVR
40 mig29k zhuk bvr R771/re27 bvrs

Those F16 numbering 75 planes may last 7-10 days by which time 70% will have crashed or become unusable due or fatigue maintenance or no BVRS ........... unless USA resupplys

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## gangsta_rap

Euro fighter said:


> You tried 4 or 5 Amraams in Feb 2019 ..............They all missed the su30mki



Why haven't you fixed your flags yet, Indian?

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## Gripen9

gangsta_rap said:


> Why haven't you fixed your flags yet, Indian?


Why mods allow this f'ing Tejas to masquerade as a eurofighter is beyond me.

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## Scorpiooo

Gripen9 said:


> Why mods allow this f'ing Tejas to masquerade as a eurofighter is beyond me.


Dont take him seriously.... he is infant ... just sitting in same dipper again and agian

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## Euro fighter

Gripen9 said:


> Why mods allow this f'ing Tejas to masquerade as a eurofighter is beyond me.



I live in Warwick
England
born and bred British
with the new blue british passport ......... lost the burgundy one in Dec 2020 lol lol
and work for Barclays bank in Finance 
The location is 100% correct 
As is my nationality


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## Windjammer

Euro fighter said:


> Err ............Your assuming a kill ratio of 100% .............Which is hillarious
> You tried 4 or 5 Amraams in Feb 2019 ..............They all missed the su30mki
> 
> The average kill ratio in BVR combat is any where between 10% and 20% max.
> This is why the west are concentrating on improving missles eccm and stealth and speed more than range . They understand the key is NEZ ie no escape Zone
> Bolting on range is useless on its ownn.
> 
> Another arrogant almost foolish conclusion you made was that each and very F16 will wn every BVR engagment. The reality is the enemy has over 450 fighters everybit as good as the F16 or better
> 36 rafale with Reb2 Aesa radar Meteore & mica bvrs
> 45 mirage2000-5 with mica Bvrs
> 63 Mig29 upg with zhuk Aesa radar new R771 and R27E BVRS
> 270 Su30mki with Pesa Radar R771/RE27/Astra mk1 bvrs
> 25 Tejas mk1 with Derby BVR and soon Astra mk1 BVR
> 40 mig29k zhuk bvr R771/re27 bvrs
> 
> Those F16 numbering 75 planes may last 7-10 days by which time 70% will have crashed or become unusable due or fatigue maintenance or no BVRS ........... unless USA resupplys


Seems you were in a hurry to press the reply button.....which is understandable......so be a good boy drink some cold water, pause, take a deep breath and read my post again very slowly so you can absorb it.
The line up is very impressive for any air force but here after all we are talking about the Indian air force which has to create false bravado even for an exercise only to be ridiculed as some cricket jokers while back home they have to paint the wreckage of own MiG-21s in PAF colours and put them on display to keep the gullible Indians entertained. Something even a Sub-Saharan airforce would not descend to do.

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## Windjammer

Reichmarshal said:


> only a fool would underestimate ones, enemy.
> and in our case, one which is bigger, better armed, and backed by all your former circassian friends.


No one is underestimating anyone but then one doesn't need to be a genius to look at the past history of the two air forces and see who delivered when required that too under adverse circumstances.
As you yourself has said because of close proximity of the two countries , BVR weapons will never be the silver bullet and in WVR , indeed only a fool would ignore how PAF performed even against the likes of EFT.

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## Euro fighter

Windjammer said:


> Seems you were in a hurry to press the reply button.....which is understandable......so be a good boy drink some cold water, pause, take a deep breath and read my post again very slowly so you can absorb it.
> The line up is very impressive for any air force but here after all we are talking about the Indian air force which has to create false bravado even for an exercise only to be ridiculed as some cricket jokers while back home they have to paint the wreckage of own MiG-21s in PAF colours and put them on display to keep the gullible Indians entertained. Something even a Sub-Saharan airforce would not descend to do.
> 
> View attachment 739574




Your rank is an elite Member 
Your post is reflects inexperience of the subject just paitriotic bravado 

Did you really say 500 amraams = 500 kills of enemy fighters 

Is this how you genuinely believe air war is effected.

D you expect 500 su30mki mig29 rafale anmd mirage2000 pilots to realistically just sit there on 500 occasions 

Think about your post again

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## Primus

Euro fighter said:


> I live in Warwick
> England
> born and bred British
> with the new blue british passport ......... lost the burgundy one in Dec 2020 lol lol
> and work for Barclays bank in Finance
> The location is 100% correct
> As is my nationality



That doesn't excuse your simping for the Indian military. Its quite clear you are an Indian. Whether living abroad or not, u r or ur fam is Indian


----------



## Windjammer

Euro fighter said:


> Your rank is an elite Member
> Your post is reflects inexperience of the subject just paitriotic bravado
> 
> Did you really say 500 amraams = 500 kills of enemy fighters
> 
> Is this how you genuinely believe air war is effected.
> 
> D you expect 500 su30mki mig29 rafale anmd mirage2000 pilots to realistically just sit there on 500 occasions
> 
> Think about your post again


And you being just a newbie, need first learn to walk before attempting to run....by conservative estimates the AMRAAMS have 80% kill rate.....hence i said 450 to 500......and every battle will not be a BVR encounter. 
Also keep in your head that last time one single hit caused rest of your MKIs and MK2s to run for dear life and leave the battlefield.

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## Euro fighter

Euro fighter said:


> Your rank is an elite Member
> Your post is reflects inexperience of the subject just paitriotic bravado
> 
> Did you really say 500 amraams = 500 kills of enemy fighters
> 
> Is this how you genuinely believe air war is effected.
> 
> D you expect 500 su30mki mig29 rafale anmd mirage2000 pilots to realistically just sit there on 500 occasions
> 
> Think about your post again




You just mentioned that BVR will not be vital in indo pak theatre due to close proximity of conflict 

Ok assume your correct . 

In modern wvr those who have HMD rule the dog fight simply pilot moves head acheives lock on . No need for fancy moves agility etc or certainly not as much. 

So guess what 

All 500 if the IAF front line fighters carry HMD & HOBS missles 

And IN PAF 

only the F16 

no other fighters in PAF including Thunder to date has a HMD or HOBS .

IAF uses 3 different HMD and HOBS missles 
R73 on mki and mig29
Asraam on Rafale & Mirage2000I
Python 5 only tested Tejas now after successfuly R73 intergration already.

In finance we have saying re stock market investment growth in future 
"past performance is not accurate refection of future results " 

In other words do not sit complacently just because a F16 shot down a rusty old mig21 bison in 2019 
or good results in 1971 mostly on back of superior western platforms like the mirage 5 

Today on paper especially with S400 coming and rafales here already the IAF is superior on all aspects bar numbers of Awacs


Huffal said:


> That doesn't excuse your simping for the Indian military. Its quite clear you are an Indian. Whether living abroad or not, u r or ur fam is Indian




No passport and birth suggest i am british ..........which i am and proud of too


Windjammer said:


> And you being just a newbie, need first learn to walk before attempting to run....by conservative estimates the AMRAAMS have 80% kill rate.....hence i said 450 to 500......and every battle will not be a BVR encounter.
> Also keep in your head that last time one single hit caused rest of your MKIs and MK2s to run for dear life and leave the battlefield.




So now your suggesting 4 out of 5 battles will be won by the F16 against Rafale Mirage2000 Su30mki Mig29 

Another massive assummption 

I say Rafale will 8 out of 10 engagements against F16 amraam or no amraam 
And the others will 50 /50 at best


Windjammer said:


> And you being just a newbie, need first learn to walk before attempting to run....by conservative estimates the AMRAAMS have 80% kill rate.....hence i said 450 to 500......and every battle will not be a BVR encounter.
> Also keep in your head that last time one single hit caused rest of your MKIs and MK2s to run for dear life and leave the battlefield.




So now your suggesting 4 out of 5 battles will be won by the F16 against Rafale Mirage2000 Su30mki Mig29 

Another massive assummption 

I say Rafale will win 8 out of 10 engagements against F16 amraam or no amraam 
And the others will 50 /50 at best


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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Yep, but given the critical role they play (and their legacy), I imagine the fighter next-up will be an NGFA from China or Turkey. I think -- despite being a carrier-ops design -- even the J-35 could be of interest because it'd offer salt-erosion-proofing, so it'd be of value for our maritime ops.


Only Salt Erosion Proof? Oh ok!


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## Euro fighter

Huffal said:


> That doesn't excuse your simping for the Indian military. Its quite clear you are an Indian. Whether living abroad or not, u r or ur fam is Indian




And i notice your british Flag 
I work with brits my entire life 
They do not even know Pakistan has an airforce LET alone the Fighter planes 
Rather ironic dont you think


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blacklight said:


> Only Salt Erosion Proof? Oh ok!


No one cares about the uprated engines or 35-ton MTOW. But if the PAF gets J-35, watch everyone demand that it transfer those to the PN and that PN get an aircraft carrier.

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## Blacklight

Euro fighter said:


> And i notice your british Flag
> *I work with brits my entire life
> They do not even know Pakistan has an airforce LET alone the Fighter planes*
> Rather ironic dont you think


Dont know what rock you have been living under, but in the real world......


*Pakistan Air Force chief flew in a RAF Eurofighter*






*Air chief flies fighter jet of UK Royal Air Force’s prestigious No 9 Squadron*





*Elite PAF, RAF squadrons termed twins*

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## Primus

Euro fighter said:


> You just mentioned that BVR will not be vital in indo pak theatre due to close proximity of conflict
> 
> Ok assume your correct .
> 
> In modern wvr those who have HMD rule the dog fight simply pilot moves head acheives lock on . No need for fancy moves agility etc or certainly not as much.
> 
> So guess what
> 
> All 500 if the IAF front line fighters carry HMD & HOBS missles
> 
> And IN PAF
> 
> only the F16
> 
> no other fighters in PAF including Thunder to date has a HMD or HOBS .
> 
> IAF uses 3 different HMD and HOBS missles
> R73 on mki and mig29
> Asraam on Rafale & Mirage2000I
> Python 5 only tested Tejas now after successfuly R73 intergration already.
> 
> In finance we have saying re stock market investment growth in future
> "past performance is not accurate refection of future results "
> 
> In other words do not sit complacently just because a F16 shot down a rusty old mig21 bison in 2019
> or good results in 1971 mostly on back of superior western platforms like the mirage 5
> 
> Today on paper especially with S400 coming and rafales here already the IAF is superior on all aspects bar numbers of Awacs
> 
> 
> 
> No passport and birth suggest i am british ..........which i am and proud of too
> 
> 
> 
> So now your suggesting 4 out of 5 battles will be won by the F16 against Rafale Mirage2000 Su30mki Mig29
> 
> Another massive assummption
> 
> I say Rafale will 8 out of 10 engagements against F16 amraam or no amraam
> And the others will 50 /50 at best
> 
> 
> 
> So now your suggesting 4 out of 5 battles will be won by the F16 against Rafale Mirage2000 Su30mki Mig29
> 
> Another massive assummption
> 
> I say Rafale will win 8 out of 10 engagements against F16 amraam or no amraam
> And the others will 50 /50 at best





Euro fighter said:


> You just mentioned that BVR will not be vital in indo pak theatre due to close proximity of conflict
> 
> Ok assume your correct .
> 
> In modern wvr those who have HMD rule the dog fight simply pilot moves head acheives lock on . No need for fancy moves agility etc or certainly not as much.
> 
> So guess what
> 
> All 500 if the IAF front line fighters carry HMD & HOBS missles
> 
> And IN PAF
> 
> only the F16
> 
> no other fighters in PAF including Thunder to date has a HMD or HOBS .
> 
> IAF uses 3 different HMD and HOBS missles
> R73 on mki and mig29
> Asraam on Rafale & Mirage2000I
> Python 5 only tested Tejas now after successfuly R73 intergration already.
> 
> In finance we have saying re stock market investment growth in future
> "past performance is not accurate refection of future results "
> 
> In other words do not sit complacently just because a F16 shot down a rusty old mig21 bison in 2019
> or good results in 1971 mostly on back of superior western platforms like the mirage 5
> 
> Today on paper especially with S400 coming and rafales here already the IAF is superior on all aspects bar numbers of Awacs
> 
> 
> 
> No passport and birth suggest i am british ..........which i am and proud of too
> 
> 
> 
> So now your suggesting 4 out of 5 battles will be won by the F16 against Rafale Mirage2000 Su30mki Mig29
> 
> Another massive assummption
> 
> I say Rafale will 8 out of 10 engagements against F16 amraam or no amraam
> And the others will 50 /50 at best
> 
> 
> 
> So now your suggesting 4 out of 5 battles will be won by the F16 against Rafale Mirage2000 Su30mki Mig29
> 
> Another massive assummption
> 
> I say Rafale will win 8 out of 10 engagements against F16 amraam or no amraam
> And the others will 50 /50 at best



In modern wvr those who have HMD rule the dog fight simply pilot moves head acheives lock on . No need for fancy moves agility etc or certainly not as much. 

So guess what 

All 500 if the IAF front line fighters carry HMD & HOBS missles 

And IN PAF 

only the F16 

no other fighters in PAF including Thunder to date has a HMD or HOBS .

IAF uses 3 different HMD and HOBS missles 
R73 on mki and mig29
Asraam on Rafale & Mirage2000I
Python 5 only tested Tejas now after successfuly R73 intergration already.

In modern day air to air combat, they will be more than just HOBS and HMD. Those 2 factors will not win an air 2 air fight.

As per evident from the 27th of Feb, a jammed aircraft is a dead aircraft (unless you are sattar alvi which none of your pilots are). How can one expect to shoot an aircraft down if,

A) His radar has just been jammed? 
B) His communications has been jammed?

Those 2 factors will leave an aircraft like the su30mki, m2k, tejas, rafale etc to be a sitting duck, waiting for an AMRAAM or sd10a to be rammed up its tail pipe. Just like what happened with your mig 21, which by the way isn't as old as you think.

Your mig 21 are mig 21 bisons which is pretty much a mig 21-93 which are from the 90s. So no, it's not old or rusty.


Your point about the r73e is moot. It was jammed alongside your r77 on the 27th of Feb. And considering how pakistan is constantly upgrading its EW tech and game compared to yours which is lacking, I wouldn't be too arrogant with your HOBS missiles or HMD. You need to see the target first.

'In finance we have saying re stock market investment growth in future 
"past performance is not accurate refection of future results "' '

This isn't finance. Also Ww2, gulf war, Iraq war wants a word with you.

' or good results in 1971 mostly on back of superior western platforms like the mirage 5'

So... You are saying our mirage 5, which we didn't even have in 71, managed to win the air war of 71? Not the mirage III, which we did have in that war and performed a limited yet damaging role in the air war 5+-0 air victories against ur airforce, J6, f86 or the f104? None of those jets won the air War, but the mirage 5 did?

Come on dude. If you are going to troll, try harder at least.

Also please... You had mig21fl and Su7. Don't put this muh sooperior wistern tiknolugy best, just because we had and kicked your *** with it.

'Today on paper especially with S400 coming and rafales here already the IAF is superior on all aspects bar numbers of Awacs'

On paper...I wouldn't put your money on the S400 yet.... Just saying. And no it's not because of the sanctions are whatever.

'No passport and birth suggest i am british ..........which i am and proud of too' 

You're British Indian. Deal with it. 

'So now your suggesting 4 out of 5 battles will be won by the F16 against Rafale Mirage2000 Su30mki Mig29 

Another massive assummption 

I say Rafale will 8 out of 10 engagements against F16 amraam or no amraam 
And the others will 50 /50 at best'

At best I would say the rafale will have the same impact as the folland gnat had on our air force. Aka little to none. Yea it will shoot down some of our jets, but in turn it will be shot down and even captured. Just like the folland gnat. Only this time round... There will be more rafale shot down than the rafale can shoot down ours


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## Blacklight

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> No one cares about the uprated engines or 35-ton MTOW. But if the PAF gets J-35, watch everyone demand that it transfer those to the PN and that PN get an aircraft carrier.


Come on Brother! YOU are a smart guy, Ignore the keyboard warriors, and think how a carrier capable a/c will fit into the paradigm without an a/c carrier.

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## Primus

Euro fighter said:


> And i notice your british Flag
> I work with brits my entire life
> They do not even know Pakistan has an airforce LET alone the Fighter planes
> Rather ironic dont you think


Are you jus chilling?

Also also same here. Been working with British people for a long time, majority of which don't even talk about either Pakistan or India because

A) they think its the same country
B) they don't give a shit
C) they know how controversial it can get so they prefer not to talk about the militaries of either country.

Please. Stop chatting bakwas. They never talk about that stuff in the work place. They don't even care about either country unless they are planning for a holiday to get a natural skin tan

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## Primus

Blacklight said:


> Dont know what rock you have been living under, but in the real world......
> 
> 
> *Pakistan Air Force chief flew in a RAF Eurofighter*
> View attachment 739587
> 
> 
> 
> *Air chief flies fighter jet of UK Royal Air Force’s prestigious No 9 Squadron*
> View attachment 739589
> 
> 
> *Elite PAF, RAF squadrons termed twins*


He's chatting a load of crap. Or in the uk we say a load of bollocks.

No one in the uk that I've worked with even talk about either country because they don't care.

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## Primus

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> No one cares about the uprated engines or 35-ton MTOW. But if the PAF gets J-35, watch everyone demand that it transfer those to the PN and that PN get an aircraft carrier.


Yes let's get an aircraft carrier so we can use it to travel 70km and spend so many million on it woohoi

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## Blacklight

Huffal said:


> Yes let's get an aircraft carrier so we can use it to travel 70km and spend so many million on it woohoi





Blacklight said:


> Come on Brother! YOU are a smart guy, Ignore the keyboard warriors, and *think how a carrier capable a/c will fit into the paradigm without an a/c carrier.*

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## Primus

I was being sarcastic about buying an aircraft carrier. Its not needed for us.... Yet.


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## Blacklight

Huffal said:


> I was being sarcastic about buying an aircraft carrier. Its not needed for us.... Yet.


and I was putting up a scenario mil planners have considered in the past.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Blacklight said:


> Come on Brother! YOU are a smart guy, Ignore the keyboard warriors, and think how a carrier capable a/c will fit into the paradigm without an a/c carrier.


It's not without precedent. The Super Bug is marketed to land-based air forces and naval air arms alike. There are additional support issues with operating such an aircraft (e.g., maintaining the carrier-specific parts), but I don't think it's infeasible, or even meant to be infeasible for land-based usage.

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## Raja Porus

Windjammer said:


> PAF performed even against the likes of EFT.


Please shed light on it.


Reichmarshal said:


> those friends can do a lot of damage to make sure their equipment in our armed forces does not produce the desired result eg all our caucasian friends have to do is mess with our GPS coordinates and then we will see how well the mid-course updates on our 120c5 work, giving PAF that magic figure of 90 % kill probability


You mean..?


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## Tipu7

Blacklight said:


> Come on Brother! YOU are a smart guy, Ignore the keyboard warriors, and think how a carrier capable a/c will fit into the paradigm without an a/c carrier.


You know, some one might miss interpret your argument and will spread the rumor that Pakistan is buying J35...
Then someone will claim that he has seen it flying in Pakistan at a confidential place, and then we will have a thread of hundred of pages where Pakistanis will glorify J35 being a super doper aircraft and Indians will keep retarding the J35 as F35 illegal copy with copied Russian stuff...

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Tipu7 said:


> You know, some one might miss interpret your argument and will spread the rumor that Pakistan is buying J35...
> Then someone will claim that he has seen it flying in Pakistan at a confidential place, and then we will have a thread of hundred of pages where Pakistanis will glorify J35 being a super doper aircraft and Indians will keep retarding the J35 as F35 illegal copy with copied Russian stuff...


You forgot the carrier. Never forget the carrier. In fact, let's make a thread in the Pakistan Navy Forum asking for a carrier -- almost everything on that forum seems to come true.

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## TNT

Euro fighter said:


> I live in Warwick
> England
> born and bred British
> with the new blue british passport ......... lost the burgundy one in Dec 2020 lol lol
> and work for Barclays bank in Finance
> The location is 100% correct
> As is my nationality



Changing colour of passport doesnt change the colour of ur face. Since u have shared so much, plz go on and tell us who u really are? White british or brown skinned head wobbling desi british whose parents from india gave an arm to reach UK.

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## Iceman2

Blacklight said:


> Come on Brother! YOU are a smart guy, Ignore the keyboard warriors, and think how a carrier capable a/c will fit into the paradigm without an a/c carrier.


Does this mean career based fighters such as j-15 also has a chance??? 🤔

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## ARMalik

Well it is good to have the BVR missiles but there are too many issues to deal with or questions without answers.

1- No AESA radar on F-16s. This is a problem in itself. 
2- Question marks on* Link-16's compatibility *with Erieye. I know PAF has tried solving it with *Link-17*, but question marks still remain. 
3- No compatibility of F-16s with Chinese Early warnings
4- Due to upgrade limitations, it is only a matter of time when EW and other systems/sub-systems on F-16s won't be able to catch-up with modern threats. 

And so on. *And that is why I think that in the near future, F-16s would be more of liability than an asset for PAF. *

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## m52k85

Reichmarshal said:


> In a shooting war* between two equally matched foes,* the success rate would be around 25-30% at best, ..
> 
> Airforces worldwide develop tactics to beat bvr missiles, which allow the pilots to get in close, and merge. the distances involved between Pakistan n India are not that great and ac will merge very quickly, even coming into gun range.


Agree those high BVR kill rates by @Windjammer are for unmatched opponents and we can at best expect 20% kill rate in a *multi-day war*.

If BVR fails in a particular engagement and both parties remain committed that doesnt mean a merge will happen automatically. That was true with the old WRM that were only tail aspect, now we have all aspect WRM that will likely mean BVR tactics at close range (cycle of engage dis-engage without merging)



Euro fighter said:


> In modern wvr those who have HMD rule the dog fight simply pilot moves head acheives lock on . No need for fancy moves agility etc or certainly not as much.
> 
> So guess what
> 
> All 500 if the IAF front line fighters carry HMD & HOBS missles
> 
> And IN PAF
> 
> only the F16
> 
> no other fighters in PAF including Thunder to date has a HMD or HOBS .


PAF F-16 dont have HOBS (9x) only HMD.
Jf-17 blk 3 on the other hand has proved HOBS with the latest pic, but no HMD&S so far.

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## dbc

Euro fighter said:


> You just mentioned that BVR will not be vital in indo pak theatre due to close proximity of conflict
> 
> Ok assume your correct .
> 
> In modern wvr those who have HMD rule the dog fight simply pilot moves head acheives lock on . No need for fancy moves agility etc or certainly not as much.
> 
> So guess what
> 
> All 500 if the IAF front line fighters carry HMD & HOBS missles
> 
> And IN PAF
> 
> only the F16
> 
> no other fighters in PAF including Thunder to date has a HMD or HOBS .
> 
> IAF uses 3 different HMD and HOBS missles
> R73 on mki and mig29
> Asraam on Rafale & Mirage2000I
> Python 5 only tested Tejas now after successfuly R73 intergration already.
> 
> In finance we have saying re stock market investment growth in future
> "past performance is not accurate refection of future results "
> 
> In other words do not sit complacently just because a F16 shot down a rusty old mig21 bison in 2019
> or good results in 1971 mostly on back of superior western platforms like the mirage 5
> 
> Today on paper especially with S400 coming and rafales here already the IAF is superior on all aspects bar numbers of Awacs
> 
> 
> 
> No passport and birth suggest i am british ..........which i am and proud of too
> 
> 
> 
> So now your suggesting 4 out of 5 battles will be won by the F16 against Rafale Mirage2000 Su30mki Mig29
> 
> Another massive assummption
> 
> I say Rafale will 8 out of 10 engagements against F16 amraam or no amraam
> And the others will 50 /50 at best
> 
> 
> 
> So now your suggesting 4 out of 5 battles will be won by the F16 against Rafale Mirage2000 Su30mki Mig29
> 
> Another massive assummption
> 
> I say Rafale will win 8 out of 10 engagements against F16 amraam or no amraam
> And the others will 50 /50 at best



I suggest you stick to finance and pretending to be an Englishman from Warwick. Please stop theorising air combat scenarios. I sincerely hope you are better at the former since you clearly suck at the latter.

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## Raja Porus

Tipu7 said:


> You know, some one might miss interpret your argument and will spread the rumor that Pakistan is buying J35...
> Then someone will claim that he has seen it flying in Pakistan at a confidential place, and then we will have a thread of hundred of pages where Pakistanis will glorify J35 being a super doper aircraft and Indians will keep retarding the J35 as F35 illegal copy with copied Russian stuff...


See...


Iceman2 said:


> Does this mean career based fighters such as j-15 also has a chance??? 🤔

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## Yasser76

Euro fighter said:


> And i notice your british Flag
> I work with brits my entire life
> They do not even know Pakistan has an airforce LET alone the Fighter planes
> Rather ironic dont you think



This shows you actually know zero about Britain and you have just outed yourself as a fake and a fraud. 

The RAF rate the PAF as a notch above the IAF, simply ask any RAF pilot or veteran.

Few things have led to this

1) Liasing with PAF during Afghan war
2) PAF flight instructors at Cranwell
3) Poor perfomance of IAF in exercises with the RAF, and the fact IAF then boasted afterwards they had got the better of the RAF
4) Feb 27th

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's not without precedent. The Super Bug is marketed to land-based air forces and naval air arms alike. There are additional support issues with operating such an aircraft (e.g., maintaining the carrier-specific parts), but I don't think it's infeasible, or even meant to be infeasible for land-based usage.


PN need to build solid fleet and strong air arm on priority, good thing that finally they are on track.. that will take 20 to 25 years

Suppose PN may consider carrier option after 20 years, but will depend on financial condition at that time, if in next 2 decades we have similar shit governments as we are having from past. then God help us

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## Scorpiooo

Blacklight said:


> Come on Brother! YOU are a smart guy, Ignore the keyboard warriors, and think how a carrier capable a/c will fit into the paradigm without an a/c carrier.


@Blacklight Carriers based aircrafts without having carrier.. interesting 🤔 ...

Only In case of chanda (free) , any thing will work


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## Scorpiooo

Right now PN need better multi-role helicopters and in good numbers for future ships and air arm role


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## Euro fighter

m52k85 said:


> Agree those high BVR kill rates by @Windjammer are for unmatched opponents and we can at best expect 20% kill rate in a *multi-day war*.
> 
> If BVR fails in a particular engagement and both parties remain committed that doesnt mean a merge will happen automatically. That was true with the old WRM that were only tail aspect, now we have all aspect WRM that will likely mean BVR tactics at close range (cycle of engage dis-engage without merging)
> 
> 
> PAF F-16 dont have HOBS (9x) only HMD.
> Jf-17 blk 3 on the other hand has proved HOBS with the latest pic, but no HMD&S so far.



Thank you for being brutally honest about defencies 
99% of the posters including semior elite members would never dare say we dont have HMD or HOBS or the F16 will soon become outdated without massive USA intervention upgrade to keep them relevant 

All we get china will do this AND PL15 means this , we have 128 Thunders . Yes but you have left out HMD/HOBS maws and Aesa radar. Now you get Block 3 you buy just 30 .. Not even 50 

Dog fighting will be vital 
Bvr will crucial but no one is taking out planes from 100+ KM away certainly not regularly .

Amraam SD10 PL15 v R771 R27E Astra Derby Mica Meteore .
PL10E v Python Asraam & R73

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## krash

Euro fighter said:


> They understand the key is NEZ ie no escape Zone
> Bolting on range is useless on its ownn.



Given the fact that a handful of those volleys made your entire air force run away to only watch the one Indian pilot with any spine fall from the sky in a big ball of fire, I'd say you are a little off the mark...pun intended.

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## Yasser76

Euro fighter said:


> Thank you for being brutally honest about defencies
> 99% of the posters including semior elite members would never dare say we dont have HMD or HOBS or the F16 will soon become outdated without massive USA intervention upgrade to keep them relevant
> 
> All we get china will do this AND PL15 means this , we have 128 Thunders . Yes but you have left out HMD/HOBS maws and Aesa radar. Now you get Block 3 you buy just 30 .. Not even 50
> 
> Dog fighting will be vital
> Bvr will crucial but no one is taking out planes from 100+ KM away certainly not regularly .
> 
> Amraam SD10 PL15 v R771 R27E Astra Derby Mica Meteore .
> PL10E v Python Asraam & R73



Funny, by same logic no MK2 Tejas or more Rafales for IAF?

30 is initial Block III order. PAF have stated more will be orderd, just like they added another 14 Block IIs and 26 two seaters to the initial 50 plane Block II order. This has been clearly stated by PAF.

PAF have also stated all Block I/IIs will be upgraded to Block III standard.

Maybe try debating with facts?

Also Mods, this is clearly a multiple fake ID account of one of the many Indians banned recently. Joined in 2018, hardly any posts since then, and after a recent banning of a few Indians this account becomes active again....


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## Windjammer

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Please shed light on it.








According To Alan Warnes, ''PAF's new F-16 MLUs Consistently Beat Saudi Eagles and Typhoons During Manoeuvres in Taif, RSA... PAF were asked to Fly Red and Blue Air. The Saudi Typhoon CO Was Allegedly So Hacked off He Didn't Go To Debrief.

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## litman

Scorpiooo said:


> PN need to build solid fleet and strong air arm on priority, good thing that finally they are on track.. that will take 20 to 25 years
> 
> Suppose PN may consider carrier option after 20 years, but will depend on financial condition at that time, if in next 2 decades we have similar shit governments as we are having from past. then God help us


Q&A with PAF Fighter Pilot, Kaiser Tufail - YouTube 
Watch from 16 55 onwards regarding your post about Pak naval air arm. Kaiser answered it nicely and with logic. Air craft carrier is way too much expensive for a country like Pak to have and maintain.

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## Windjammer

Lethal Beauty.

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## m52k85

Euro fighter said:


> Thank you for being brutally honest about defencies
> 99% of the posters including semior elite members would never dare say we dont have HMD or HOBS or the F16 will soon become outdated without massive USA intervention upgrade to keep them relevant


We have HMD on the F-16s (The helmets them selves double as a HMS as well), what we dont have currently is the HOBS missile to go along with it (Aim-9x), you are confusing a few things there.



Euro fighter said:


> All we get china will do this AND PL15 means this , we have 128 Thunders . Yes but you have left out HMD/HOBS maws and Aesa radar. Now you get Block 3 you buy just 30 .. Not even 50


MAWS are there since Jf-17 block1.



Euro fighter said:


> Dog fighting will be vital
> Bvr will crucial but no one is taking out planes from 100+ KM away certainly not regularly .


Dog fighting will become vital in the subcontinent when we are equally matched. Currently F-16s outrange everything you have. This will change with meteor (or may be with the new Russian BVRs)



Euro fighter said:


> Amraam SD10 PL15 v R771 R27E Astra Derby Mica Meteore .
> PL10E v Python Asraam & R73


Over simplistic analysis, what matters how many of the longest range missile platforms you have and how they compare to ours at a given point in time. Do that for second longest range BVRs and their platforms and so. Try doing this for each year for the next 5 or 10 years. Then you will see the true picture.

Best of luck.

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## m52k85

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 739827
> 
> According To Alan Warnes, ''PAF's new F-16 MLUs Consistently Beat Saudi Eagles and Typhoons During Manoeuvres in Taif, RSA... PAF were asked to Fly Red and Blue Air. The Saudi Typhoon CO Was Allegedly So Hacked off He Didn't Go To Debrief.


Are the two from the same issue? which year/ month was it?


Windjammer said:


> View attachment 739829


Do the blk 15 MLUs lack MAWS?

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## Windjammer

m52k85 said:


> Are the two from the same issue? which year/ month was it?
> 
> Do the blk 15 MLUs lack MAWS?


No the first encounter with Typhoons took place in 2008, before the arrival of the AMRAAMs....while the manoeuvres with Saudi Typhoons and Eagles happened much more recently....after our F-16s had gone through MLU . And i believe the earlier F-16s are very much equipped with MAWS.

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## khanasifm

Windjammer said:


> No the first encounter with Typhoons took place in 2008, before the arrival of the AMRAAMs....while the manoeuvres with Saudi Typhoons and Eagles happened much more recently....after our F-16s had gone through MLU . And i believe the earlier F-16s are very much equipped with MAWS.
> 
> View attachment 739883



The outer wing also has rear receiver

View attachment 739898


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## The Raven

Euro fighter said:


> Thank you for being brutally honest about defencies
> 99% of the posters including semior elite members would never dare say we dont have HMD or HOBS or the F16 will soon become outdated without massive USA intervention upgrade to keep them relevant
> 
> All we get china will do this AND PL15 means this , we have 128 Thunders . Yes but you have left out HMD/HOBS maws and Aesa radar. Now you get Block 3 you buy just 30 .. Not even 50
> 
> Dog fighting will be vital
> Bvr will crucial but no one is taking out planes from 100+ KM away certainly not regularly .
> 
> Amraam SD10 PL15 v R771 R27E Astra Derby Mica Meteore .
> PL10E v Python Asraam & R73



For a "born and bred Brit with a blue passport", you sure do have some very poor English skills...in fact, the style of your prose gives you away as a banana boat immigrant. Your English skills wouldn't even pass the British Naturalisation Test.


Windjammer said:


> No the first encounter with Typhoons took place in 2008, before the arrival of the AMRAAMs....while the manoeuvres with Saudi Typhoons and Eagles happened much more recently....after our F-16s had gone through MLU . And i believe the earlier F-16s are very much equipped with MAWS.
> 
> View attachment 739883



Those are not MAWS, that's the RWR. MAWS work in the optical UV or IR spectrum, RWR are radar emitter sensors.

IR/UV based MAWS are capable of detecting either Fox2 or Fox3 missiles from standoff ranges, whereas RWRs can only detect Fox3 missiles when they've gone "Pitbull" and are emitting from their radar seeker heads, at much closer ranges, typically only a few sec of flight time away from the target aircraft.. Hence why MAWS are so valuable in A2A engagements. Current gen IR MAWS such as the DAS system on the F-35 can also work as IRST sensors picking up aircraft from long ranges - the Block III has improved IR MAWS from the UV based in the Block I/II.

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## MIRauf

Scorpiooo said:


> @Blacklight Carriers based aircrafts without having carrier.. interesting 🤔 ...
> 
> Only In case of chanda (free) , any thing will work


Kuwait Airforce F-18s, no Carrier
Australian Airforce F-18s, no Carrier
Switzerland, F-18s, no Carrier
Finland, F-18s, no Carrier
and then we have Canada with F-18s.

I left out few, as they are operating small numbers.

Not sure why people get uptight when they hear that an Air-Force is using a Carrier based jet, it's not a hard written in stone rule that 'thou shell not use carrier based jets without a carrier.'

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## Gripen9

MIRauf said:


> Kuwait Airforce F-18s, no Carrier
> Australian Airforce F-18s, no Carrier
> Switzerland, F-18s, no Carrier
> Finland, F-18s, no Carrier
> and then we have Canada with F-18s.
> 
> I left out few, as they are operating small numbers.
> 
> Not sure why people get uptight when they hear that an Air-Force is using a Carrier based jet, it's not a hard written in stone rule that 'thou shell not use carrier based jets without a carrier.'


IrAF F-14 Tomcats, no A/C.
Greece, and quite a few other Airforces flew A-7s which was a carrier borne interdiction aircraft.


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## DrWatson775

Windjammer said:


> No the first encounter with Typhoons took place in 2008, before the arrival of the AMRAAMs....while the manoeuvres with Saudi Typhoons and Eagles happened much more recently....after our F-16s had gone through MLU . And i believe the earlier F-16s are very much equipped with MAWS.
> 
> View attachment 739883


The small bumps in the nose the arrow is pointing to are related to ECM, not MAWs ; read it somewhere...


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## m52k85

So does that mean PAF MLU F-16 A and Bs dont have MAWS?


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## VkdIndian

Reichmarshal said:


> In a shooting war* between two equally matched foes,* the success rate would be around 25-30% at best, as there is yet to be a weapon that would be a be all end all of the air warfare and bvr like all such overhyped weapons before it proved less than wt was anticipated from them.



This sounds a more practical assessment of kill rate.



Desert Fox 1 said:


> Even with only 50% success rate we will be able to knock out 250 frontline fighters.



50% kill rate for the number of BVRs fired applicable to both sides in a progressive manner wouldn’t mean the same for both the Airforces. 



Reichmarshal said:


> those friends can do a lot of damage to make sure their equipment in our armed forces does not produce the desired result eg all our caucasian friends have to do is mess with our GPS coordinates and then we will see how well the mid-course updates on our 120c5 work, giving PAF that magic figure of 90 % kill probability


Anything and everything relying on US provided positioning services is likely to be degraded as per their whims. It is bound have an impact on weapons and services relying on US GPS. Those relying on GLONASS, BeiDou NavIC etc may be better off.


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## The Raven

m52k85 said:


> So does that mean PAF MLU F-16 A and Bs dont have MAWS?



No, they don't.


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## Scorpiooo

What will be the cost of PAF F16 MLU and ADF to be upgraded to V standard .. per fighter cost anyone have idea ?


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## Yasser76

Scorpiooo said:


> What will be the cost of PAF F16 MLU and ADF to be upgraded to V standard .. per fighter cost anyone have idea ?



in 2011 Taiwan paid $5.3 Billion for upgrading 141 F-16s to V. So in today's money we are probably looking at around $ Billion for our 75 airframes. (deal included weapons)

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## Scorpiooo

Yasser76 said:


> in 2011 Taiwan paid $5.3 Billion for upgrading 141 F-16s to V. So in today's money we are probably looking at around $ Billion for our 75 airframes. (deal included weapons)


But if i am not wrong there jet has not gone fro any update before that .. so cost will be high


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## Yasser76

Scorpiooo said:


> But if i am not wrong there jet has not gone fro any update before that .. so cost will be high



Yes, but I am unsure cost of V upprade will be much cheaper just as we went through MLUs, themain expense will be the AESA radar....


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## Scorpiooo

Yasser76 said:


> Yes, but I am unsure cost of V upprade will be much cheaper just as we went through MLUs, themain expense will be the AESA radar....


Yes you totally right, but my question was to convert MLU to V , how much it cost


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## MIRauf

Gripen9 said:


> IrAF F-14 Tomcats, no A/C.
> Greece, and quite a few other Airforces flew A-7s which was a carrier borne interdiction aircraft.


So true,

I left the IIAF F-14s as it was selected by then Shah rather then the Air-Force, but either way an awesome combo he signed ( F-14s providing top cover for F-16s ), IIAF would have been a force to reckon with.

I excluded A-7s even though PAF coveted it through out the 70s ( OMG , PAF chasing after a Carrier jet ? ) since it was adopted by USAF and US ANG, holly sh.t, USAF and ANG using Carrier based jet, what on earth ?

PS: Corrected RIAF to IIAF.


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## SQ8

Scorpiooo said:


> Yes you totally right, but my question was to convert MLU to V , how much it cost


Theoretically the same as it cost Taiwan but the benefit of it would be short lived for the life left in the airframes.

Better to look to procurement of replacement Block-30s and 40s from AMARG.

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## Scorpiooo

SQ8 said:


> Theoretically the same as it cost Taiwan but the benefit of it would be short lived for the life left in the airframes.
> 
> Better to look to procurement of replacement Block-30s and 40s from AMARG.


You are right to have EDA or 3rd part upgraded to V will more sensible, it will also increase numbers and will not have dought to stuck by some restrictions with American


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## Gripen9

MIRauf said:


> So true,
> 
> I left the IIAF F-14s as it was selected by then Shah rather then the Air-Force, but either way an awesome combo he signed ( F-14s providing top cover for F-16s ), IIAF would have been a force to reckon with.
> 
> I excluded A-7s even though PAF coveted it through out the 70s ( OMG , PAF chasing after a Carrier jet ? ) since it was adopted by USAF and US ANG, holly sh.t, USAF and ANG using Carrier based jet, what on earth ?
> 
> PS: Corrected RIAF to IIAF.



F-4 Phantom served USAF, USN, USMC faithfully. It was developed as a fleet defense fighter.
A-4 Skyhawk with its awkward high undercarriage served with multiple AFs and was used the Israelis and Argies in war as well.


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## MIRauf

Gripen9 said:


> F-4 Phantom served USAF, USN, USMC faithfully. It was developed as a fleet defense fighter.
> A-4 Skyhawk with its awkward high undercarriage served with multiple AFs and was used the Israelis and Argies in war as well.


Well hopefully this will end the usual comment of 'Carrier Fighter for Land Airforce ? how absurd' statements. least we can hope.

It was always fun to watch Kuwait Airforce A-4s flying around the airport, good memories.

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## Scorpiooo

Right now PAF need something stronger in weight and range then thanders and practical to maintain ...

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## TheDarkKnight

Blacklight said:


> Come on Brother! YOU are a smart guy, Ignore the keyboard warriors, and think how a carrier capable a/c will fit into the paradigm without an a/c carrier.


Higher interoperability with PLAN. Unlike JF17, the j35 will be in large numbers in PLAN and PAF can benefit from a better supported program. It may make economic sense as well. Since it will in service in China, the Chinese will be bankrolling upgrades and PAF can be on a ride along. Spares and maintenance can be shared with China incase of war. Additionally in a far fetched scenario PAF can perform joint naval operations with PLAN Aircraft carriers. The a/c aircrafts are built for short and rougher landings, so PAF will have more options/flexibility in landing and taking off from roads and motorways.

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## khanasifm

Scorpiooo said:


> Right now PAF need something stronger in weight and range then thanders and practical to maintain ...



How about adding weight on the nose [emoji103] and rear of Jf17 to make it stronger in weight [emoji23] 

.....














Kidding [emoji81]

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## ghazi52

4 Tails, & unlimited Tales

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## khanasifm

ghazi52 said:


> 4 Tails, & unlimited Tales
> 
> View attachment 741255



What about number 29 ? The 5th sqn


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## m52k85

khanasifm said:


> What about number 29 ? The 5th sqn


I still dont understand how no. 29 has been stood up without acquiring new airframes.


ghazi52 said:


> 4 Tails, & unlimited Tales
> 
> View attachment 741255


Goes to show the minute differences between the Blk 15, Blk 15 ADFs and Blk 52.


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## khanasifm

The Definitive Answer On Why F-16s Carry AIM-120 AMRAAMs On Their Wingtip Rails


The answer to why the Viper flies with heavier AIM-120s on its wingtips and lighter AIM-9 Sidewinders under its wings may surprise you.




www.thedrive.com

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> Worth also remembering that while an F-16 can carry half a dozen missiles including *four* bvr.


6*


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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> 6*


Would surely love to see the full pack.


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## ziaulislam

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Lolllzzz
> View attachment 737954
> 
> 
> Like??


Like letting pakistan getting bankrupted

Had the arabs and later IMF WB not saved pakistan *** we would have bankrupted on 20b laons repayment

Once u bankrupt the rupee becomes a meaningless paper and within a night traders will be asking for dollar, ghandi jee or even afghani currency

Pakistanis are not angels...infact market work is even more extreme here

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## GriffinsRule

Windjammer said:


> Would surely love to see the full pack.











Here’s A Closer Look At The Heavily Armed F-16 Fighter Jets That Ventured Into The South China Sea


Flying far from their home in Japan, the four F-16s, each armed with six missiles, executed operations in one of the tensest areas of the planet.




www.thedrive.com





They can but its not usually the case or even viable. Unlikely we will ever see this type of a loadout in PAF. Its rare even in USAF


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## khanasifm

Combat aircraft article about making f-16 stealthier 

Current cross section b52 100 sq meter 
F-15. 25
F-16 and Mig 29 5 sq meter 
Rafael. 1 Sq meter 
Typhoons .5 sq meter 


After treatment f-16 averages to 1.2 sq meter 

Details in the article but aesa radar also plays a role

So Jf17 block 3 would also go down

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## Scorpiooo

khanasifm said:


> Combat aircraft article about making f-16 stealthier
> 
> Current cross section b52 100 sq meter
> F-15. 25
> F-16 and Mig 29 5 sq meter
> Rafael. 1 Sq meter
> Typhoons .5 sq meter
> 
> 
> After treatment f-16 averages to 1.2 sq meter
> 
> Details in the article but aesa radar also plays a role
> 
> So Jf17 block 3 would also go down


Which article, can you plz share

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## khanasifm

Scorpiooo said:


> Which article, can you plz share



I glanced at it in store did not buy


----------



## khanasifm

The existing cross section data is based on globalsecurity.com and not official

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## GriffinsRule

Interested members can read more about it here.








Old/New Articles and News item about PAF


Peshawar, Early 1950s, No. 9 Sqn & the Formation of Red Dragons by Fred Isaacs At that point in time the entire RPAF fighter air defense rested on the shoulders of number 5, 9 and 14 squadron pilots based at Peshawar. The wing was commanded by W/C Garred Cole seconded from the RAF In...



defence.pk

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## Talon

GriffinsRule said:


> Unlikely we will ever see this type of a loadout in PAF. Its rare even in USAF


What made you say this? Please enlighten us, I would love to hear your reasons for this statement

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## The Maverick

iLION12345_1 said:


> They were all modernized in Turkey in just the last few years. A lot of life left in them still. Apart from Rafale there’s nothing in the sub continent to match F16s at the moment.



the only thing standing in the way of 450 su30mki mig29 upg Rafale mirage2000/5
is your fleet of 73 f16. 
i always,said break the f16 fleet and India wins air supremacy .
Your jf17 are decent but the f16 is world class period .

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## Yasser76

The Maverick said:


> the only thing standing in the way of 450 su30mki mig29 upg Rafale mirage2000/5
> is your fleet of 73 f16.
> i always,said break the f16 fleet and India wins air supremacy .
> Your jf17 are decent but the f16 is world class period .




Feb 27th. This has taught you no lessons at all. F-16s played a part but it was integrated effort of PAF. Even IAF admits this.

For you and the fanboys you sit and make comparisons, that is where you fall down. Even as of now India has only 5 AEW and 6 air refuellers, and no edge in EW. 

It's 74 F-16s but hey, you were never good with facts right?

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## iLION12345_1

The Maverick said:


> the only thing standing in the way of 450 su30mki mig29 upg Rafale mirage2000/5
> is your fleet of 73 f16.
> i always,said break the f16 fleet and India wins air supremacy .
> Your jf17 are decent but the f16 is world class period .


Your MiG 29s aren’t even as good as our mirages, sit down. 
“450” SU30 is the funniest joke I’ve heard in a while. Should be 449 after 27th February though. 
where were these mirages and Sukhois and migs when india needed them? Apart from crashed on the ground after getting hit by AMRAAMS. The tool doesn’t matter, it matters how you use it. And india uses its tools rather poorly, losing more aircraft to crashes a year than most airforces operate.

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## Akatosh

iLION12345_1 said:


> 450” SU30 is the funniest joke I’ve heard in a while.


It's actually 455 4th gen jets.
262 Su-30
21 Rafale
22 Tejas
60 Mig-29
49 Mirage 2000
41 Mig-29K


iLION12345_1 said:


> Should be 449 after 27th February though.
> where were these mirages and Sukhois and migs when india needed them? Apart from crashed on the ground after getting hit by AMRAAMS


No Sukhoi got a single scratch on 27-02-2019.
Pakistanis are free to have their own version.

Nonetheless all this is off topic for this thread.

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## khanasifm

Iaf rear ended very well let’s
Move on no need to argue

End of story

The whole industry and airforces around the world know what specially Russian were very concerned about their product legacy 

There is joke in industry when some one is lazy or delayed on delivery manger day are you trying yo deliver teja or are you working on teja programs ? 

What else can I say [emoji38]

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## The Maverick

iLION12345_1 said:


> Your MiG 29s aren’t even as good as our mirages, sit down.
> “450” SU30 is the funniest joke I’ve heard in a while. Should be 449 after 27th February though.
> where were these mirages and Sukhois and migs when india needed them? Apart from crashed on the ground after getting hit by AMRAAMS. The tool doesn’t matter, it matters how you use it. And india uses its tools rather poorly, losing more aircraft to crashes a year than most airforces operate.




When you dissect it further it gets even worse .

of the 73 F16 only 18 are block 52 
The remaining 55 are upgraded block 15 F16s . yes they have been upgraded to block 50 but are not as capable as the block 52. The 55 F16 carry the APG66 radar which is far inferior to APG68 and the MLU F16 carry no HOBS missles . Max range of detection on APG66 is half that of APG68 and half of the numbers of targets.

This is why the 30 block 3 thunders will be far superior with Aesa radar and new generation BVRS. But these are 2 years late and first example arrive 2022. 

You cant afford to get complacent just on a 1 hour skirmish which was hit and run excercise.

A fullscale war with S400 barak hundreds of mki fighters cold swamp the PAF fleet on paper at least 

You would run out of fuel and missles and have broken down planes bases and infrastructure left right and centre

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## HRK

> A fullscale war with S400 barak hundreds of mki fighters cold swamp the PAF fleet on paper at least


beautifully summarise the whole thinking of Indian Nation against us since the acquisition of Su-30MKI .... 


> You would run out of fuel and missles and have broken down planes bases and infrastructure left right and centre


hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

A dream generation after generation of India have died seeing but none see it coming true ..... but another turd with firm believe on this is posting it here .... who of course would die in same manner like those who were also dreaming about our end like this ......

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## Scorpiooo

The Maverick said:


> When you dissect it further it gets even worse .
> 
> of the 73 F16 only 18 are block 52
> The remaining 55 are upgraded block 15 F16s . yes they have been upgraded to block 50 but are not as capable as the block 52. The 55 F16 carry the APG66 radar which is far inferior to APG68 and the MLU F16 carry no HOBS missles . Max range of detection on APG66 is half that of APG68 and half of the numbers of targets.
> 
> This is why the 30 block 3 thunders will be far superior with Aesa radar and new generation BVRS. But these are 2 years late and first example arrive 2022.
> 
> You cant afford to get complacent just on a 1 hour skirmish which was hit and run excercise.
> 
> A fullscale war with S400 barak hundreds of mki fighters cold swamp the PAF fleet on paper at least
> 
> You would run out of fuel and missles and have broken down planes bases and infrastructure left right and centre


I am afraid with dought that even in future indian S400 and other defense system destroys own fighter’s within indian territory before they become PAF targets... .. 
best self distractions force in world 😉


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## Yasser76

PAC churning out JF-17s like hot cakes, these will be equipped with AESA and PL-15. Around 200 of them.
Add 74 F-16s.

IAF has no counter to the PL-15, not even Meteor.

Pakistan forging ahead in EW, AI and drones.

Next Feb 27trh will be even worse for you.


The Maverick said:


> When you dissect it further it gets even worse .
> 
> of the 73 F16 only 18 are block 52
> The remaining 55 are upgraded block 15 F16s . yes they have been upgraded to block 50 but are not as capable as the block 52. The 55 F16 carry the APG66 radar which is far inferior to APG68 and the MLU F16 carry no HOBS missles . Max range of detection on APG66 is half that of APG68 and half of the numbers of targets.
> 
> This is why the 30 block 3 thunders will be far superior with Aesa radar and new generation BVRS. But these are 2 years late and first example arrive 2022.
> 
> You cant afford to get complacent just on a 1 hour skirmish which was hit and run excercise.
> 
> A fullscale war with S400 barak hundreds of mki fighters cold swamp the PAF fleet on paper at least
> 
> You would run out of fuel and missles and have broken down planes bases and infrastructure left right and centre



The point is in that "1 hour skirmish" the IAF failed to find and counter the PAF. The PAF succesfully found the IAF, jammed them, then shot them out the sky. The actual aircraft types (Mirages, SU-30, MIG-21s) were irrelevant. It was the men, training, information dominance and networking that won the "1 hour skirmish". These are areas that decide wars. Of course you guys can just sit and look at new shiny planes the French are ripping you off for and think all is well. Genuinely my biggest wish is that you, Indians and IAF maintain this mindset, such a mindset is one of Pakistan's biggest allies.

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## Scorpiooo

Yasser76 said:


> PAC churning out JF-17s like hot cakes, these will be equipped with AESA and PL-15. Around 200 of them.
> Add 74 F-16s.
> 
> IAF has no counter to the PL-15, not even Meteor.
> 
> Pakistan forging ahead in EW, AI and drones.
> 
> Next Feb 27trh will be even worse for you.
> 
> 
> The point is in that "1 hour skirmish" the IAF failed to find and counter the PAF. The PAF succesfully found the IAF, jammed them, then shot them out the sky. The actual aircraft types (Mirages, SU-30, MIG-21s) were irrelevant. It was the men, training, information dominance and networking that won the "1 hour skirmish". These are areas that decide wars. Of course you guys can just sit and look at new shiny planes the French are ripping you off for and think all is well. Genuinely my biggest wish is that you, Indians and IAF maintain this mindset, such a mindset is one of Pakistan's biggest allies.


Plus any additional F16 block 70 or V standard (if we somehow able to get) will give additional punch to PAF fleet.
If we are also able to get AIM-120C7 (likely) atleast or may be D (difficult), it will be power punch along with PL15 in BRVs


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## Yasser76

Scorpiooo said:


> Plus any additional F16 block 70 or V standard will give additional punch to PAF
> If we able to get AIM-120C7 or may be D , it will be power punch along with PL15 in BRVs



It's not just that, Indians are masters of trying to fight the last war. They really think in 10 years we will be content with AMRAAMS and F-16s, that is what they are planing for.

PAF sees itself in 10 years as moving on a generation. Cyber, AI, Networking and stealth may well mean IAF Rafales flying blind and being blastes out of the sky like IAF MIG-21s were. Their lack on investment in critical capabilities is shocking. They even needed UAE/French refuellers for the ferry flight for their Rafs.

SU-30 is early 90's tech, they think this can cope with AESA/PL-15 combo.

Guys live on a fantasy world.


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## Scorpiooo

Yasser76 said:


> It's not just that, Indians are masters of trying to fight the last war. They really think in 10 years we will be content with AMRAAMS and F-16s, that is what they are planing for.
> 
> PAF sees itself in 10 years as moving on a generation. Cyber, AI, Networking and stealth may well mean IAF Rafales flying blind and being blastes out of the sky like IAF MIG-21s were. Their lack on investment in critical capabilities is shocking. They even needed UAE/French refuellers for the ferry flight for their Rafs.
> 
> SU-30 is early 90's tech, they think this can cope with AESA/PL-15 combo.
> 
> Guys live on a fantasy world.


True fact bro, in next 10 years PAF have multiple add on , in term of drones , most probably new 4.5 fighter plateform from Chinese interesting even PL 17 and PL 21 will ne integrated on that plateform as well. Additionally project azam will taking final shape. Induction of anti stealth redar is also possible from chinese..
New Awacs Induction is also on card and more stronge turkish EW jets possible

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## SQ8

Yasser76 said:


> It's not just that, Indians are masters of trying to fight the last war. They really think in 10 years we will be content with AMRAAMS and F-16s, that is what they are planing for.
> 
> PAF sees itself in 10 years as moving on a generation. Cyber, AI, Networking and stealth may well mean IAF Rafales flying blind and being blastes out of the sky like IAF MIG-21s were. Their lack on investment in critical capabilities is shocking. They even needed UAE/French refuellers for the ferry flight for their Rafs.
> 
> SU-30 is early 90's tech, they think this can cope with AESA/PL-15 combo.
> 
> Guys live on a fantasy world.


Perhaps it is Pakistan looking to fight the last conflict - I would never underestimate a well funded enemy.

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## PanzerKiel

SQ8 said:


> Perhaps it is Pakistan looking to fight the last conflict - I would never underestimate a well funded enemy.


Moreover, as Stalin said... 

Quantity has a quality of its own. 

In addition, just to keep things in perspective.... Sharing one of my older posts... 

The fighter pilot is the last remaining example on earth of the military gladiator, the individual champion. His is the last remaining chance going back to the days of chivalry, and go one-on-one against an opponent. A fighter pilot may rely on his aircraft performance the way a worrior of old depended on his horse’s abilities, but ultimately, when two pilots oppose each other in approximately comparable aircraft, the outcome is entirely one of courage and skill. In an age where numbers and mass count for everything and the individual for nothing, there is something very attractive about a fighter pilot. A successful one, of course.

The picture can be overdrawn. A fighter pilot squaring off one-on- one would certainly face problems with his officer commanding, because the air force, as any other branch of service, is interested not in heroics and gladiatorial dash, but in winning. And you win best by team work.

The Israelis were the first to call themselves the Orange Juice Air Force because there they don’t encourage drinking, bravado, individuality and dash, but a quiet, unspectacular teamwork. The idea is to shoot more of them for each of us. That is the simple equation that governs air warfare.

The interesting thing about PAF and IAF is that each is a microcosm of their societies and their overall military position.

The Pakistan Air Force has always been far smaller than the I.A.F. The ratio has never been as bad as 1953, when India had about ten jet fighter squadrons to one of Pakistan’s but it has never been better than three-to-one. With resources being so tight, the P.A.F. has always striven to get the best return from a small force.

The P. A. F. reached its peak about 1960. It had ten combat squadrons, seven on the F-86 Sabre, two on B- 57 (the American version of the Canberra) and one on the F- 104 Starfighter, and about 160 combat aircraft. The I.A.F. had about 500 aircraft in 25 large squadrons.

*The small Pakistani force operates with high efficiency, learning quickly from its American mentors that a small number of highly professional pilots flying standardized aircraft, and backed up with first class maintenance and a well-organized air base system costs less, and is more powerful, than a larger, more disorganized force.*

The PAF has much smaller pool of fighter pilots, being a much smaller air force. This may not matter in a short war. In a long war, however, one lives off the fat till new pilots are trained, and as India has ample fat, the advantage is theirs. Admittedly the replacement pilots may not be as good as the first-line ones. But as the best ones disappear, or survive to get better, the not-so-good pilots become adequate in comparison to the PAF, which is also losing its good pilots.

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## The Raven

PanzerKiel said:


> *The small Pakistani force operates with high efficiency, learning quickly from its American mentors that a small number of highly professional pilots flying standardized aircraft, and backed up with first class maintenance and a well-organized air base system costs less, and is more powerful, than a larger, more disorganized force.*



This is the key to PAF's success. As I've mentioned in other posts, the PAF have strongly based their doctrine on the USAF model, and the PAF wouldn't be what it is today if it wasn't for US training, aircraft, and cooperation. A similar model was adopted by the Israelis. Leaving aside the love/hate relationship of the politics between the two countries, the airforces, as well as the other services of the two countries, have enjoyed mutually beneficial relationships, especially during the Cold War period. That is why the PAF would never hesitate at the chance of more Vipers, much to the chagrin of many US haters on here. If the PAF had adopted a Soviet or even Chinese airforce doctrine, the results in history would have been quite different. We have seen the results with airforces that have leaned towards the Soviet doctrine (most of the Arab states, india, North Korea, etc).

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## krash

PanzerKiel said:


> The PAF has much smaller pool of fighter pilots, being a much smaller air force. This may not matter in a short war. In a long war, however, one lives off the fat till new pilots are trained, and as India has ample fat, the advantage is theirs. Admittedly the replacement pilots may not be as good as the first-line ones. But as the best ones disappear, or survive to get better, the not-so-good pilots become adequate in comparison to the PAF, which is also losing its good pilots.



Traditionally, the PAF has always found it easier to source pilots than the IAF, which remains 'under-piloted'. Regardless,

Since every pilot lost in combat will principally also mean the loss of an aircraft, it would depend on which node lays on the critical path; pilot or aircraft? Reportedly, Jane's states that PAF's current "pilot to fighter aircraft" ratio is *2.5:1*. Given that we will require more than a 1:1 ratio to keep sortie rates high enough, and that specialized combat aircraft/sorties will require two pilots per sortie, let's overestimate the absolutely essential ratio at *2:1, *Vs IAF's authorized figure of *1.25:1* and its actual ratio of *0.81:1*, Vs USAF's *2:1*. Theoretically, this leaves behind 0.5x 395 = 197.5 "spare" pilots (not including the trainees already in the pipeline) that the PAF already has who could man another 197.5/2 ≈ 98 aircraft.

Under the most ideal conditions Pakistan would need 98/25 = 3.92 years to source 98 JF-17s. IMHO, we won't see a war lasting 3.92 years given the firepower both possess. At least not in a state where both sides are still able to source aircraft at these rates or even at all. Maybe an emergency loan of in-service Chinese J-10s early on? Needless to say, that would remain a fantasy only.

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## GriffinsRule

Hodor said:


> What made you say this? Please enlighten us, I would love to hear your reasons for this statement


A couple of reasons. Cost is certainly one as well as the availability of number of missiles as well as the flexibility in engagements two different sets of missiles provide a fighter pilot, ie radar and IR guided. 
In case of Indo-Pak scenarios, fighter merge will happen most of the time imo just due to the short distances involved as well as proximity of air bases. USAF might get away with 6 AIM-120s in some very specific scenarios, but you will be hard pressed to find more than a couple of pictures with that load-out. Even with a BVR heavy config, you will see five AIM-120s and still one AIM-9. 
PS I have yet to see pictures of any other AF carry 6 AMRAAMs on F-16s besides the USAF.


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## airbus101

I came across this video and I think it makes perfect sense and also have seen Zubaida jalal visit to Iraq this year.


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## Scorpiooo

airbus101 said:


> I came across this video and I think it makes perfect sense and also have seen Zubaida jalal visit to Iraq this year.


He is wrong about Egypt , theu have block 52 F16s


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## air marshal



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## ghazi52

*Syed Zohaib Zaidi Photography*
YaeesctteruSepdcloay gansoagt 3sif:ul4n1 rPeadmiMSdm · 

Beauty from Arrows!

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## ghazi52

Lion's Den

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## m52k85

ghazi52 said:


> Lion's Den
> 
> 
> View attachment 744964


Great for dancing on 23rd March


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## ghazi52



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## The Raven

With the USAF looking to divest Vipers and questions over the future of the Iraqi Viper fleet, I wouldn't write off a significant number of used airframes joining the PAF, politics and finances permitting of course. And if the PAF can get either the V upgrade package or the Turkish equivalent, the PAF could pursue an excercise in consolidation of unwanted Vipers from the global fleet, similar to what it did with the global Mirage III/V fleet.

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## TsAr

The Raven said:


> With the USAF looking to divest Vipers and questions over the future of the Iraqi Viper fleet, I wouldn't write off a significant number of used airframes joining the PAF, politics and finances permitting of course. And if the PAF can get either the V upgrade package or the Turkish equivalent, the PAF could pursue an excercise in consolidation of unwanted Vipers from the global fleet, similar to what it did with the global Mirage III/V fleet.


Along with the eventual induction of next generation fighter which will replace F-22 they are also looking for a 4.5 Gen fighter that would replace F-16 (F-35 failed to do so) that would work along with F-35. That would mean a lot of spare F-16, but PAF might have to wait till atleast 2030 for this.

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## GriffinsRule

US is only retiring Block 30 F-16s, not many of which were built to begin with. They are keeping all Block 40 and 50 jets and upgrading them instead.

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## Ghessan

*Air Force opens new F-16 production line for foreign military sales*
By Air Force Life Cycle Management Center Public Affairs / Published May 18, 2021






PHOTO DETAILS / DOWNLOAD HI-RES 1 of 2
A F-16 Fighting Falcon flies during a mission at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., Feb. 14, 2019. To support the growing demand for new F-16 Fighting Falcon from partner nations, the U.S. Air Force has teamed with Lockheed Martin Corp. to open a new production line to build the F-16 Block 70/72 fighter aircraft at the company’s facility in Greenville, S.C. (U.S. Air Force photo by Tech. Sgt. John Raven)








PRINT | E-MAIL

*WRIGHT-PATTERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Ohio (AFNS) --*
To support the growing demand for new *F-16 Fighting Falcon* from partner nations, the U.S. Air Force has teamed with Lockheed Martin Corp. to open a new production line to build the F-16 Block 70/72 fighter aircraft at the company’s facility in Greenville, South Carolina.

Launched on Veterans Day 2019, the line is the only production facility for F-16s in the world, opening three years after the company’s long-time F-16 line in Fort Worth, Texas, wrapped up production.

Recently, and on behalf of five foreign military partners, the Air Force awarded Lockheed Martin Corp. approximately $14 billion, to build 128 F-16s at the facility through 2026.

“This new production line is very significant,” said Col. Brian Pearson, integrated product team lead for F-16 foreign military sales, with the Air Force Life Cycle Management Center’s Fighters and Advanced Aircraft Directorate, which is leading the effort to build and deliver the new F-16s. “There are 25 nations operating F-16s today, and they have a lot of expertise with the airframe. The line helps us meet the global demand that a number of nations have for [F-16] aircraft and gives us the additional capability to provide the aircraft to countries interested in purchasing it for the first time.”

The first F-16s are expected to roll off the production line in 2022, and production is expected to increase after the first year. The aircraft will be delivered to multiple foreign military partners, including Bahrain, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Taiwan, and others, many of whom have expressed interest beyond the first deliveries.

More aircraft are expected to be built in the upcoming years, and there are requests for F-16s under review from additional foreign military partners.

“Since the LM production line opened, AFSAC [AFLCMC’s Air Force Security Assistance and Cooperation Directorate] has seen an uptick of our partner nations requesting detailed information and requests for U.S. government sales,” said Col. Anthony Walker, International Division senior materiel leader. “We are excited about the new workload and increased opportunity to deliver airpower capabilities that strengthen international partnerships and advance national security.”

In addition to leading efforts to field new F-16s, the Fighters and Advanced Aircraft Directorate is also modernizing 405 F-16s – operated by four partner nations – with the V-Configuration, which consists of new radar and other upgrades to make them similar to the aircraft that will come off the production line.

“F-16s are operational across the globe and are a key capability fortifying the security of our international partners,” said *Brig. Gen. Dale White*, Fighters and Advanced Aircraft program executive officer. “Every F-16 we equip our foreign partners with improves their ability to defend their interests and support our mutual security interests. The caliber and talent of our foreign military sales program office teams is top-notch, and their impact is felt globally. The F-16 is an enduring, highly capable compact fighter that will have a large role in many partner nations’ security for years to come.”









Air Force opens new F-16 production line for foreign military sales


To support the growing demand for new F-16 Fighting Falcon from partner nations, the U.S. Air Force has teamed with Lockheed Martin Corp. to open a new production line to build the F-16 Block 70/72



www.af.mil

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## mingle

Ghessan said:


> *Air Force opens new F-16 production line for foreign military sales*
> By Air Force Life Cycle Management Center Public Affairs / Published May 18, 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PHOTO DETAILS / DOWNLOAD HI-RES 1 of 2
> A F-16 Fighting Falcon flies during a mission at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., Feb. 14, 2019. To support the growing demand for new F-16 Fighting Falcon from partner nations, the U.S. Air Force has teamed with Lockheed Martin Corp. to open a new production line to build the F-16 Block 70/72 fighter aircraft at the company’s facility in Greenville, S.C. (U.S. Air Force photo by Tech. Sgt. John Raven)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PRINT | E-MAIL
> 
> *WRIGHT-PATTERSON AIR FORCE BASE, Ohio (AFNS) --*
> To support the growing demand for new *F-16 Fighting Falcon* from partner nations, the U.S. Air Force has teamed with Lockheed Martin Corp. to open a new production line to build the F-16 Block 70/72 fighter aircraft at the company’s facility in Greenville, South Carolina.
> 
> Launched on Veterans Day 2019, the line is the only production facility for F-16s in the world, opening three years after the company’s long-time F-16 line in Fort Worth, Texas, wrapped up production.
> 
> Recently, and on behalf of five foreign military partners, the Air Force awarded Lockheed Martin Corp. approximately $14 billion, to build 128 F-16s at the facility through 2026.
> 
> “This new production line is very significant,” said Col. Brian Pearson, integrated product team lead for F-16 foreign military sales, with the Air Force Life Cycle Management Center’s Fighters and Advanced Aircraft Directorate, which is leading the effort to build and deliver the new F-16s. “There are 25 nations operating F-16s today, and they have a lot of expertise with the airframe. The line helps us meet the global demand that a number of nations have for [F-16] aircraft and gives us the additional capability to provide the aircraft to countries interested in purchasing it for the first time.”
> 
> The first F-16s are expected to roll off the production line in 2022, and production is expected to increase after the first year. The aircraft will be delivered to multiple foreign military partners, including Bahrain, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Taiwan, and others, many of whom have expressed interest beyond the first deliveries.
> 
> More aircraft are expected to be built in the upcoming years, and there are requests for F-16s under review from additional foreign military partners.
> 
> “Since the LM production line opened, AFSAC [AFLCMC’s Air Force Security Assistance and Cooperation Directorate] has seen an uptick of our partner nations requesting detailed information and requests for U.S. government sales,” said Col. Anthony Walker, International Division senior materiel leader. “We are excited about the new workload and increased opportunity to deliver airpower capabilities that strengthen international partnerships and advance national security.”
> 
> In addition to leading efforts to field new F-16s, the Fighters and Advanced Aircraft Directorate is also modernizing 405 F-16s – operated by four partner nations – with the V-Configuration, which consists of new radar and other upgrades to make them similar to the aircraft that will come off the production line.
> 
> “F-16s are operational across the globe and are a key capability fortifying the security of our international partners,” said *Brig. Gen. Dale White*, Fighters and Advanced Aircraft program executive officer. “Every F-16 we equip our foreign partners with improves their ability to defend their interests and support our mutual security interests. The caliber and talent of our foreign military sales program office teams is top-notch, and their impact is felt globally. The F-16 is an enduring, highly capable compact fighter that will have a large role in many partner nations’ security for years to come.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Air Force opens new F-16 production line for foreign military sales
> 
> 
> To support the growing demand for new F-16 Fighting Falcon from partner nations, the U.S. Air Force has teamed with Lockheed Martin Corp. to open a new production line to build the F-16 Block 70/72
> 
> 
> 
> www.af.mil


Who are the new buyers??


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## Ghessan

mingle said:


> Who are the new buyers??



debatable, although new production line raise eyebrows but we can't jump the ship. we also cannot base anything on developments particularly when they are just due to some circumstances and fades away with time. as things may go either way, no one can conclude a thing. 

i am of the opinion US will not that easy allow a sale. if it advances, would we be ready for the compromises and/or cooperation on demand?

there may be any, they are planning to stay in the region. they are not happy with CPEC, Israel recognition, China factor.

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## mingle

Ghessan said:


> debatable, although new production line raise eyebrows but we can't jump the ship. we also cannot base anything on developments particularly when they are just due to some circumstances and fades away with time. as things may go either way, no one can conclude a thing.
> 
> i am of the opinion US will not that easy allow a sale. if it advances, would we be ready for the compromises and/or cooperation on demand?
> 
> there may be any, they are planning to stay in the region. they are not happy with CPEC, Israel recognition, China factor.


Second line means someone put money down beacuse creating infrastructure for 2nd line will cost LM money and resources let's see I don't see any country new beacuse Indonesia is getting Rafale they are very close to agreement Africa Asia I don't see EU all moving to F35 including Poland
There are requests under review from partner nations according to article sounds interesting


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## Ghessan

mingle said:


> Second line means someone put money down beacuse creating infrastructure for 2nd line will cost LM money and resources let's see I don't see any country new beacuse Indonesia is getting Rafale they are very close to agreement Africa Asia I don't see EU all moving to F35 including Poland
> There are requests under review from partner nations according to article sounds interesting



very true, but put it this way, should a squadron or so make them start an other production run? 

when it comes to Pakistan everything changes, they have the habit of asking too much in return and we are found guilty sometimes of acting their way. 

i am also of the opinion that PAF is not short of funds but when it comes to US we are found empty pockets. it seems it is because we do not trust US in terms of major defense articles, if paid would conclude in the form of what not but the actual buy.

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## DHSquare

Ghessan said:


> very true, but put it this way, should a squadron or so make them start an other production run?
> 
> when it comes to Pakistan everything changes, they have the habit of asking too much in return and we are found guilty sometimes of acting their way.
> 
> i am also of the opinion that PAF is not short of funds but when it comes to US we are found empty pockets. it seems it is because we do not trust US in terms of major defense articles, if paid would conclude in the form of what not but the actual buy.


And thats a long long standing irony... whch Allah knows when it will end


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## ziaulislam

The Maverick said:


> When you dissect it further it gets even worse .
> 
> of the 73 F16 only 18 are block 52
> The remaining 55 are upgraded block 15 F16s . yes they have been upgraded to block 50 but are not as capable as the block 52. The 55 F16 carry the APG66 radar which is far inferior to APG68 and the MLU F16 carry no HOBS missles . Max range of detection on APG66 is half that of APG68 and half of the numbers of targets.
> 
> This is why the 30 block 3 thunders will be far superior with Aesa radar and new generation BVRS. But these are 2 years late and first example arrive 2022.
> 
> You cant afford to get complacent just on a 1 hour skirmish which was hit and run excercise.
> 
> A fullscale war with S400 barak hundreds of mki fighters cold swamp the PAF fleet on paper at least
> 
> You would run out of fuel and missles and have broken down planes bases and infrastructure left right and centre


Lol where do you get your morning marijuana from???

For 10 years PAF employed aim120c that outclasses everything EVEN TODAY in IAF except a few rafales

In otherwords PAF 5squardons is even today superior to anything IAF operates

by 2025 surely IAF will get it two squardons but PAF had 5 squardons that outgun everything IAF had for more then a decade 

Two counter these rafales..our network centric jf17 block3-pl-15& awec combo wil work(even if anticpated j10/f16v doesnt materialize)

And you know that for last 10 yrs PAF outguns IAF even in AWECs department..

So what does IAF has that PAF doesnt has..large clunky trucks(su 30, previously known as raptor of the east)


Ghessan said:


> very true, but put it this way, should a squadron or so make them start an other production run?
> 
> when it comes to Pakistan everything changes, they have the habit of asking too much in return and we are found guilty sometimes of acting their way.
> 
> i am also of the opinion that PAF is not short of funds but when it comes to US we are found empty pockets. it seems it is because we do not trust US in terms of major defense articles, if paid would conclude in the form of what not but the actual buy.


Agree ...doubt it PAF will pay full price for a restriced f16

Though its shame as even today nothing beats the f16


mingle said:


> Second line means someone put money down beacuse creating infrastructure for 2nd line will cost LM money and resources let's see I don't see any country new beacuse Indonesia is getting Rafale they are very close to agreement Africa Asia I don't see EU all moving to F35 including Poland
> There are requests under review from partner nations according to article sounds interesting


F16V is and will remain popular and profitable

Its the cheapest and most capable 4.5gen fighter

Costs half as much as typhoon rafale and is as good if not better

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## Reichmarshal

the only way new or used F 16 will see the light of the day in PAF colors is if they come out of CSF or PAK being a major non-nato alley. other than that if u think it's coming out of our pockets then u all are sadly mistaken.

This also holds true for anything else that is procured from the u.s

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## ghazi52

Sleep Tight, Pakistan Air Force is Awake...!

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## ghazi52

Pair of F-16 block-52 Fighting Falcons assigned to No. 5 Sqn of Pakistan Air Force

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## Talon

GriffinsRule said:


> A couple of reasons. Cost is certainly one as well as the availability of number of missiles as well as the flexibility in engagements two different sets of missiles provide a fighter pilot, ie radar and IR guided.
> In case of Indo-Pak scenarios, fighter merge will happen most of the time imo just due to the short distances involved as well as proximity of air bases. USAF might get away with 6 AIM-120s in some very specific scenarios, but you will be hard pressed to find more than a couple of pictures with that load-out. Even with a BVR heavy config, you will see five AIM-120s and still one AIM-9.
> PS I have yet to see pictures of any other AF carry 6 AMRAAMs on F-16s besides the USAF.


How is cost a reason, as we already have the missiles..we dont need to buy them?

Same for availability,we already have the missiles and more than enough.

Merge scenarios are very difficult in modern era, even in this region. You don't scramble when enemy is 10 miles out from Mushaf rather the scramble or CAP will be directed towards the target well enough on time to use amraam s.

But yes a merge can happen and just because of this "can" , 2 sidewinders are carried but that doesn't mean 6 amraam loadout isn't used.

You don't see most of the operations in pictures, you saw Mirage carrying H-4 after how many years of its service or even Aim120 wing view from the cockpit? How many times have you seen a Mirage carrying 8 mk82 bombs Or have you seen Mavericks on Paf F-16 in recent times? I can give many examples.

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## GriffinsRule

Hodor said:


> How is cost a reason, as we already have the missiles..we dont need to buy them?
> 
> Same for availability,we already have the missiles and more than enough.
> 
> Merge scenarios are very difficult in modern era, even in this region. You don't scramble when enemy is 10 miles out from Mushaf rather the scramble or CAP will be directed towards the target well enough on time to use amraam s.
> 
> But yes a merge can happen and just because of this "can" , 2 sidewinders are carried but that doesn't mean 6 amraam loadout isn't used.
> 
> You don't see most of the operations in pictures, you saw Mirage carrying H-4 after how many years of its service or even Aim120 wing view from the cockpit? How many times have you seen a Mirage carrying 8 mk82 bombs Or have you seen Mavericks on Paf F-16 in recent times? I can give many examples.


Cost is the reason for replacement, same as availability (talking about replacement for spent missiles). In peacetime, you are burning their life by carrying more than necessary while not utilizing or discarding AIM-9Ls for no reason. In war, we definitely don't have enough. It is not like we will have a venue to replace them if we were to use up all or most of them in a war scenario (keeping in mind the low % of a hit probability for BVRs).

Also merge scenarios are not difficult at all in the modern era especially given our geographically close enemy, and India and Pakistan are not in that bracket technology wise anyways. Merges will happen most of the time.

As for your Maverick example, at least we have seen them on F-16s, from the 1980s to the 2000s. Have never seen 6 AMRAAMs on any F-16 of any country (besides the USAF). So while possible, I find the loadout highly unlikely.

Also, even in the US scenario, they have far greater ISR platforms and better versions of the missiles, and their potential enemy (China) has to fly quiet a distance usually to get to them so with early warning as well as longer ranged missiles such a load out might even be more use in a tactical situation for them.

So I stand by my assertion that we will not see this loadout on PAF F-16s.

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## Talon

GriffinsRule said:


> Cost is the reason for replacement, same as availability (talking about replacement for spent missiles). In peacetime, you are burning their life by carrying more than necessary while not utilizing or discarding AIM-9Ls for no reason. In war, we definitely don't have enough. It is not like we will have a venue to replace them if we were to use up all or most of them in a war scenario (keeping in mind the low % of a hit probability for BVRs).
> 
> Also merge scenarios are not difficult at all in the modern era especially given our geographically close enemy, and India and Pakistan are not in that bracket technology wise anyways. Merges will happen most of the time.
> 
> As for your Maverick example, at least we have seen them on F-16s, from the 1980s to the 2000s. Have never seen 6 AMRAAMs on any F-16 of any country (besides the USAF). So while possible, I find the loadout highly unlikely.
> 
> Also, even in the US scenario, they have far greater ISR platforms and better versions of the missiles, and their potential enemy (China) has to fly quiet a distance usually to get to them so with early warning as well as longer ranged missiles such a load out might even be more use in a tactical situation for them.
> 
> So I stand by my assertion that we will not see this loadout on PAF F-16s.


Ok so you mostly repeated what you said in your last comment even though I answered every part of it. 

We aren't talking about using them..rather carrying them. So you are asserting the pilot *should* go for a merge just because aim-9 ko zung na lag jay? We wont have a long conventional war,very unlikely. For stand off, the current stock is enough. What? Low % hit? Where are you getting your facts from boy? We fired two Aim120s in 2019 and both of them hit their targets. You call this low hit %?

I have already answered that merge scenario, dont know why you quoted same statement again.

Out of 4 examples I quoted, you answered to only 1. Tells me you are trying to make this discussion into an argument of *I made a statement and I won't back out no matter what*. Look, I am not commenting here to win the discussion. I was just stating 6 aim 120c loadout is possible, if you haven't seen it then that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Why you keeping quoting USAF? Did I mention it even once?

Anyways, you have made up your mind of paf not carrying 6 aim120s and are turning this into an argument so I am out. If you can't support your stance with proper examples or facts and will just stand on *if I haven't seen it, it doesn't exist* then I would like to be Mastan Khan for once and say " Kid, not an intelligent comment " 

Regards

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## ghazi52



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## m52k85

@Hodor @Dazzler what sort of pods is this TuAF Block-50 carrying? Thanks..


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## Vapnope

Euro fighter said:


> Thank you for being brutally honest about defencies
> 99% of the posters including semior elite members would never dare say we dont have HMD or HOBS or the F16 will soon become outdated without massive USA intervention upgrade to keep them relevant
> 
> All we get china will do this AND PL15 means this , we have 128 Thunders . Yes but you have left out HMD/HOBS maws and Aesa radar. Now you get Block 3 you buy just 30 .. Not even 50
> 
> Dog fighting will be vital
> Bvr will crucial but no one is taking out planes from 100+ KM away certainly not regularly .
> 
> Amraam SD10 PL15 v R771 R27E Astra Derby Mica Meteore .
> PL10E v Python Asraam & R73


By any chance, this is Guru Dutt? Because he also threw a lot of words without even knowing it.

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## Reichsmarschall

Vapnope said:


> By any chance, this is Guru Dutt? Because he also threw a lot of words without even knowing it.


He sounds more like @Storm Force

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## PanzerKiel

m52k85 said:


> @Hodor @Dazzler what sort of pods is this TuAF Block-50 carrying? Thanks..


They are the sniper pod and the AN/AAQ-13 NAV.

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## Windjammer

*Air Chief Marshal (ACM) Tahir Rafique Butt flew solo in an F-16 of the PAF while taking part in exercise Saffron Bandit 2012-13 .*

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## m52k85

PanzerKiel said:


> They are the sniper pod and the AN/AAQ-13 NAV.


Thanks, why carry both though?


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## PanzerKiel

m52k85 said:


> Thanks, why carry both though?


*AN/AAQ-13 navigation pod* provides high-speed penetration and precision attack on tactical targets at night and in adverse weather. The navigation pod contains a terrain-following radar and a fixed thermographic camera, which provides a visual cue and input to the aircraft's flight control system, enabling it to maintain a pre-selected altitude above the terrain and avoid obstacles. This sensor displays an infrared image of the terrain in front of the aircraft, to the pilot, on a Head-up display. The navigation pod enables the pilot to fly along the general contour of the terrain at high speed, using mountains, valleys and the cover of darkness to avoid detection.

While the Lockheed Martin *Sniper* is a targeting pod for military aircraft that provides positive target identification, autonomous tracking, GPS coordinate generation, and precise weapons guidance from extended standoff ranges.

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## Gripen9

m52k85 said:


> Thanks, why carry both though?


This is how the initial version of LANTIRN ( Low Altitude Navigation and Targeting Infrared for Night ) was set up. You had a targeting pod (AA/AAN-14) and an all weather, low altitude navigation pod.
_



The *AN/AAQ-13 navigation pod* provides high-speed penetration and precision attack on tactical targets at night and in adverse weather. The navigation pod contains a terrain-following radar and a fixed thermographic camera, which provides a visual cue and input to the aircraft's flight control system, enabling it to maintain a pre-selected altitude above the terrain and avoid obstacles. This sensor displays an infrared image of the terrain in front of the aircraft, to the pilot, on a Head-up display. The navigation pod enables the pilot to fly along the general contour of the terrain at high speed, using mountains, valleys and the cover of darkness to avoid detection. The pod was the USAF's first wide-field, forward looking infrared navigation system for air superiority fighters. A downgraded version for export with the terrain-following radar deleted is designated as the *AN/AAQ-20 Pathfinder*, which is only capable of providing a visual cue/picture of ground features in darkness and adverse weather generated by the infrared sensor, and pilots must rely on their own skill to avoid ground obstacles at low altitude flight.

Click to expand...


The AA/AAN-14 targeting pod was subsequently replaced by Israeli Litening AA/AAN-28 and Sniper pods._


PanzerKiel said:


> *AN/AAQ-13 navigation pod* provides high-speed penetration and precision attack on tactical targets at night and in adverse weather. The navigation pod contains a terrain-following radar and a fixed thermographic camera, which provides a visual cue and input to the aircraft's flight control system, enabling it to maintain a pre-selected altitude above the terrain and avoid obstacles. This sensor displays an infrared image of the terrain in front of the aircraft, to the pilot, on a Head-up display. The navigation pod enables the pilot to fly along the general contour of the terrain at high speed, using mountains, valleys and the cover of darkness to avoid detection.
> 
> While the Lockheed Martin *Sniper* is a targeting pod for military aircraft that provides positive target identification, autonomous tracking, GPS coordinate generation, and precise weapons guidance from extended standoff ranges.
> 
> 
> View attachment 747798


LOL we responded at the same time with same info

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## Talon

m52k85 said:


> Thanks, why carry both though?


TGP is used mainly for tracking and directing the weapon over targets and usually provides 3 visual modes WHOT,BHOT and TV and you can see the camera feed only on the MFD.

Navpod or FLIR is basically used for low level night flying. It projects what it sees on the hud of the aircraft as well as on the MFD so the pilot doesn't need NVGs he can just look on the HUD and see what's infront of him.

I have tried to put in simple words,the other two gents have given much more detailed information.

Hud view

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## GriffinsRule

Hodor said:


> Ok so you mostly repeated what you said in your last comment even though I answered every part of it.
> 
> We aren't talking about using them..rather carrying them. So you are asserting the pilot *should* go for a merge just because aim-9 ko zung na lag jay? We wont have a long conventional war,very unlikely. For stand off, the current stock is enough. What? Low % hit? Where are you getting your facts from boy? We fired two Aim120s in 2019 and both of them hit their targets. You call this low hit %?
> 
> I have already answered that merge scenario, dont know why you quoted same statement again.
> 
> Out of 4 examples I quoted, you answered to only 1. Tells me you are trying to make this discussion into an argument of *I made a statement and I won't back out no matter what*. Look, I am not commenting here to win the discussion. I was just stating 6 aim 120c loadout is possible, if you haven't seen it then that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
> 
> Why you keeping quoting USAF? Did I mention it even once?
> 
> Anyways, you have made up your mind of paf not carrying 6 aim120s and are turning this into an argument so I am out. If you can't support your stance with proper examples or facts and will just stand on *if I haven't seen it, it doesn't exist* then I would like to be Mastan Khan for once and say " Kid, not an intelligent comment "
> 
> Regards


That's okay by me. You have not presented any reason for PAF carrying such a load-out, regardless of capability. So yes I'm sticking with my view of things


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## Blacklight

@Hodor & @GriffinsRule Maybe we can have a brotherly chat in pvt? I can initiate if required?

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## GriffinsRule

Blacklight said:


> @Hodor & @GriffinsRule Maybe we can have a brotherly chat in pvt? I can initiate if required?


Appreciate your concern but I am not sure if it's required, as a difference of opinion is a normal thing to have. I've no bitter feelings if someone disagrees with me.

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## umair86

Hodor said:


> TGP is used mainly for tracking and directing the weapon over targets and usually provides 3 visual modes WHOT,BHOT and TV and you can see the camera feed only on the MFD.
> 
> Navpod or FLIR is basically used for low level night flying. It projects what it sees on the hud of the aircraft as well as on the MFD so the pilot doesn't need NVGs he can just look on the HUD and see what's infront of him.
> 
> I have tried to put in simple words,the other two gents have given much more detailed information.
> 
> Hud view
> 
> View attachment 747822


This navigation capability through HUD is available on Mirage VEF ROSE II/III.


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## Scorpiooo

F16 are not going any where in next 15 to 20 years in PAF, so PAF need to get advance variant of Aim120s, we have C5, but we need C7 aswell and have to try out our luck with D variant aswell (may be can have them due afghan card)

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## ghazi52



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## Super Falcon

Can pak make changes in us sofware in f 16 and make pl 15 configured to be shoot by falcons


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## Tipu7

Super Falcon said:


> Can pak make changes in us sofware in f 16 and make pl 15 configured to be shoot by falcons


Hell No.


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## ghazi52

Muscle climb
Syed Zohaib Zaidi

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## Readerdefence

PanzerKiel said:


> *AN/AAQ-13 navigation pod* provides high-speed penetration and precision attack on tactical targets at night and in adverse weather. The navigation pod contains a terrain-following radar and a fixed thermographic camera, which provides a visual cue and input to the aircraft's flight control system, enabling it to maintain a pre-selected altitude above the terrain and avoid obstacles. This sensor displays an infrared image of the terrain in front of the aircraft, to the pilot, on a Head-up display. The navigation pod enables the pilot to fly along the general contour of the terrain at high speed, using mountains, valleys and the cover of darkness to avoid detection.
> 
> While the Lockheed Martin *Sniper* is a targeting pod for military aircraft that provides positive target identification, autonomous tracking, GPS coordinate generation, and precise weapons guidance from extended standoff ranges.
> 
> 
> View attachment 747798


Hi any body have a clue why this aircraft is carrying two pods side by side & what’s the difference for carrying a single to a dual pod 
of anybody having some better info to answer 
thank you


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## Super Falcon

Tipu7 said:


> Hell No.


Nothing is imposible how turks doing it


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## Talon

Readerdefence said:


> Hi any body have a clue why this aircraft is carrying two pods side by side & what’s the difference for carrying a single to a dual pod
> of anybody having some better info to answer
> thank you


The post you have quoted is actually an answer to your question?

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## Metal 0-1

Super Falcon said:


> Nothing is imposible how turks doing it


Well Turks have ToT. Still nothing happens until US gives a nod.

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## Readerdefence

Hodor said:


> The post you have quoted is actually an answer to your question?


Hi thanks for your reply so as a layman like me to know which is the best out of two 
thank you


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## Trango Towers

ARMalik said:


> The number of F-16s in PAF is around 75, and for once I am glad that PAF did not get many more of these F-16s. I believe that with time, *these F-16s will be slowly disposed off.* The main reasons are limitations to upgrades to the existing systems due to US unwillingness, along with Political, and strategic.
> 
> The days of F-16s in PAF will come to end, and I will be one of the blokes celebrating this, and saying thank God !


Well a time may come when PAF may decide to upgrade the f16 with their own choice of weapons etc as the yanks won't play ball


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## Goritoes

Super Falcon said:


> Can pak make changes in us sofware in f 16 and make pl 15 configured to be shoot by falcons



Not at all...


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## Talon

Readerdefence said:


> Hi thanks for your reply so as a layman like me to know which is the best out of two
> thank you


Both have different roles, TGP is mainly used for tracking targets and Navpod is used for navigation and terrain masking. So you cant compare the two.

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## Signalian

PanzerKiel said:


> While the Lockheed Martin *Sniper* is a targeting pod for military aircraft that provides positive target identification, autonomous tracking, GPS coordinate generation, and precise weapons guidance from extended standoff ranges.


What if APG-68 is switched off and *SNIPER* is used to target an aircraft with AMRAAM ?

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## Trango Towers

Most people forget...once th


Windjammer said:


> Worth also remembering that while an F-16 can carry half a dozen missiles including four BVRs....while say the SU-30 can be equipped with up to a dozen rounds mostly BVRs......but it took just one AMRAAM to kill the myth.


Most people forget once the will to fight is taken from the enemy the rest is history


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## Irfan Baloch

Yasser76 said:


> It's not just that, Indians are masters of trying to fight the last war. They really think in 10 years we will be content with AMRAAMS and F-16s, that is what they are planing for.
> 
> PAF sees itself in 10 years as moving on a generation. Cyber, AI, Networking and stealth may well mean IAF Rafales flying blind and being blastes out of the sky like IAF MIG-21s were. Their lack on investment in critical capabilities is shocking. They even needed UAE/French refuellers for the ferry flight for their Rafs.
> 
> SU-30 is early 90's tech, they think this can cope with AESA/PL-15 combo.
> 
> Guys live on a fantasy world.


they are masters of Bullshit.
in the west, the multinational companies that have outsourced work to India are realizing that Indians dont only deliver substandard performance but they constantly and habitually lie about their abilities and the progress of work, they cheat and end up costing more due to delays and overheads to the organisations that moved their operations in India. Data protection is biggest issue.

their pilots and technicians deserve some praise that they are able to fly the clusterfuck of an air force which in most polite terms seems to be confused. that all said, they are very good at manipulating and propaganda and have very successfully denied the access to Western technology to PAF. we got our work cut out so our planners need to be on top of their game to find any avenues both i East or West to gain any competitive edge.

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## Metal 0-1

Signalian said:


> What if APG-68 is switched off and *SNIPER* is used to target an aircraft with AMRAAM ?


 it would need to be very lucky shot to see out a target in the air at such long ranges using the T-Pod. But T-Pod can be slaved to radar for a2a photos but to use it as an IRIS-T is not plausible.

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## Talon

Signalian said:


> What if APG-68 is switched off and *SNIPER* is used to target an aircraft with AMRAAM ?


Technicalities apart, how will you find the target flying at beyond visual range with the *SNIPER* ?


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## Signalian

Hodor said:


> Technicalities apart, how will you find the target flying at beyond visual range with the *SNIPER* ?


A bit of possibility ?

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## Blacklight

Signalian said:


> A bit of possibility ?
> 
> View attachment 749897

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## truthfollower

Blacklight said:


> View attachment 749952
> 
> View attachment 749955


can you use these pods independently or it is linked with a radar. Is it easy to find target with the pod without using radar?


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## Blacklight

truthfollower said:


> can you use these pods independently


Yes



truthfollower said:


> or it is linked with a radar.



Usually is, but can be independently used as well.



truthfollower said:


> Is it easy to find target with the pod without using radar?


For a professional, yes.

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## Signalian

truthfollower said:


> can you use these pods independently or it is linked with a radar. Is it easy to find target with the pod without using radar?


Data link module can be used.

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1400055812748308487

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## TsAr

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1400055812748308487


this is a new system introduced by USAF to quickly control fires....

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## Abid123

Pakistan should ask Turkey to upgrade PAF 57 "older" F-16 to block 52+ standard.


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## iLION12345_1

Abid123 said:


> Pakistan should ask Turkey to upgrade PAF 57 "older" F-16 to block 52+ standard.


They cannot do that without US permission either.


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## araz

Abid123 said:


> Pakistan should ask Turkey to upgrade PAF 57 "older" F-16 to block 52+ standard.


According to cobfirmed open sources, 43 of the Block 15s which PAF have already been upgraded capability wise to block52 standard. The radar and pods used are the same. They lack the additional HPs and CFTs.
The Jordanian block 15s are ADF versions and capability wise less than PAF'S BL15s. 
I think the oulays are such that PAF would not want to convert all of their block 15s to 52 standard even if it could be done.
So in short barring the Jordanian planes our fleet is upgraded appropriately.
A

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## khanasifm

iLION12345_1 said:


> They cannot do that without US permission either.



Not sure where u are getting your info but all older block 15 are Mlued and equivalent to block 52 level minus the last batch of Jordanian f-16 which are block 15 plus or adv variant so bvr capable and day light ground attack capable


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## iLION12345_1

Abid123 said:


> Pakistan should ask Turkey to upgrade PAF 57 "older" F-16 to block 52+ standard.


They cannot do that without US permission either.


araz said:


> According to cobfirmed open sources, 43 of the Block 15s which PAF have already been upgraded capability wise to block52 standard. The radar and pods used are the same. They lack the additional HPs and CFTs.
> The Jordanian block 15s are ADF versions and capability wise less than PAF'S BL15s.
> I think the oulays are such that PAF would not want to convert all of their block 15s to 52 standard even if it could be done.
> So in short barring the Jordanian planes our fleet is upgraded appropriately.
> A





khanasifm said:


> Not sure where u are getting your info but all older block 15 are Mlued and equivalent to block 52 level minus the last batch of Jordanian f-16 which are block 15 plus or adv variant so bvr capable and day light ground attack capable


I am aware of the upgrades. Pakistan purchased the MLU M3 Tape kits (63 of them) and radars for these itself before these were sent to Turkey. These F-16s also got structural upgrades
I’m not “getting my info” from anywhere as there was nothing that needed a source. What I said was correct. They cannot upgrade anything without US permission (at least not for a foreign customer). These upgrades happened with US permission.
Pakistan wanted to get ToT and do them locally but was denied permission.

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## Talon

Signalian said:


> A bit of possibility ?
> 
> View attachment 749897


Is SNIPER IRST capable? That doesn't look like Sniper in the picture you posted.

Also as per my understanding, IRST is only used with sidewinders as the whole objective is to locate and target Stealth aircrafts that cannot be targeted via radar missiles such as aim120..





Blacklight said:


> View attachment 749952
> 
> View attachment 749955


When you lock a target from the radar you can *then* see it on the MFD via TGP feed..like the pictures you posted

@Signalian A bit of technical side, you might be able to locate the target via Datalink, bull's-eye coordinates , bore sight, IRST , buddy, awacs or ground radars but at the end of the day you need a radar to fire the weapon be it your own radar or from support, you *cannot* take out the target without the use of radar ( be it directly or indirectly ) until the weapon goes pitbull. Radar will be involved one way or another unless its a WVR fight... that's my understanding..

I am not talking about AG operations here of course..

Also dont forget, if you turn off your radar you wont be able to see the other guy as well.. yes your buddies can help you but in a battle things aren't that simple. Turning off your radar can only help you against a SAM and that too in certain scenarios only.

If you would become invisible by just turning off your radar then combat aviation would be a totally different thing..

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## Talon

truthfollower said:


> Is it easy to find target with the pod without using radar?



If the target is aerial and obviously moving then no its not easy or dare I say possible to locate it without a direct or indirect radar feed, you can try the coordinates ( if from awacs But then radar is involved ) and if from ground units then by the time they give you the coordinates the enemy Aircraft would have changed its coordinates with respect to bullseye..you can only locate it via coordinates if the target is static *OR* you are in IAF, then you can be lucky enough to locate it via TGP feed only..

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## truthfollower

Hodor said:


> If the target is aerial and obviously moving then no its not easy or dare I say possible to locate it without a direct or indirect radar feed, you can try the coordinates ( if from awacs But then radar is involved ) and if from ground units then by the time they give you the coordinates the enemy Aircraft would have changed its coordinates with respect to bullseye..you can only locate it via coordinates if the target is static *OR* you are in IAF, then you can be lucky enough to locate it via TGP feed only..


thank you for detailed answer 🤗

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## Sayfullah

araz said:


> I think the oulays are such that PAF would not want to convert all of their block 15s to 52 standard even if it could be done.


Why not?


araz said:


> HPs


What’s that?


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## iLION12345_1

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Why not?
> 
> What’s that?


HP means Hardpoints.

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## Reichmarshal

iLION12345_1 said:


> They cannot do that without US permission either.
> 
> 
> I am aware of the upgrades. Pakistan purchased the MLU M3 Tape kits (63 of them) and radars for these itself before these were sent to Turkey. These F-16s also got structural upgrades
> I’m not “getting my info” from anywhere as there was nothing that needed a source. What I said was correct. They cannot upgrade anything without US permission (at least not for a foreign customer). These upgrades happened with US permission.
> Pakistan wanted to get ToT and do them locally but was denied permission.


Actually the American were all for it until turkey changed their mind and it eventually took place in turkey.

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## Signalian

Hodor said:


> Is SNIPER IRST capable? That doesn't look like Sniper in the picture you posted.
> 
> Also as per my understanding, IRST is only used with sidewinders as the whole objective is to locate and target Stealth aircrafts that cannot be targeted via radar missiles such as aim120..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you lock a target from the radar you can *then* see it on the MFD via TGP feed..like the pictures you posted
> 
> @Signalian A bit of technical side, you might be able to locate the target via Datalink, bull's-eye coordinates , bore sight, IRST , buddy, awacs or ground radars but at the end of the day you need a radar to fire the weapon be it your own radar or from support, you *cannot* take out the target without the use of radar ( be it directly or indirectly ) until the weapon goes pitbull. Radar will be involved one way or another unless its a WVR fight... that's my understanding..
> 
> I am not talking about AG operations here of course..
> 
> Also dont forget, if you turn off your radar you wont be able to see the other guy as well.. yes your buddies can help you but in a battle things aren't that simple. Turning off your radar can only help you against a SAM and that too in certain scenarios only.
> 
> If you would become invisible by just turning off your radar then combat aviation would be a totally different thing..


SNIPER has FLIR. 
AMRAAM has own seeker which can get activated at the final stage while it receives all info through data link, so may not need aircraft's radar.


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## Metal 0-1

Signalian said:


> SNIPER has FLIR.
> AMRAAM has own seeker which can get activated at the final stage while it receives all info through data link, so may not need aircraft's radar.


AMRAAM is radar guided/Fox-3 missile.

Fighter jet radar locks on bandit. It requires a lock from jet radar until it goes Pitbull. As soon as it goes Pitbull onboard radar independently track target.

Fox-2 Missiles are IR guided. Like Aim-9. They have IR seeker which locks on IR spectrum of heat signature of enemy aircraft. They don't require radar. But they are WVR missiles.

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## Signalian

Metal 0-1 said:


> AMRAAM is radar guided/Fox-3 missile.
> 
> Fighter jet radar locks on bandit. It requires a lock from jet radar until it goes Pitbull. As soon as it goes Pitbull onboard radar independently track target.
> 
> Fox-2 Missiles are IR guided. Like Aim-9. They have IR seeker which locks on IR spectrum of heat signature of enemy aircraft. They don't require radar. But they are WVR missiles.


AM I not understanding it correctly ?

"
Once the electromagnetically silent F-16s are within range, they can create their own engagement quality target tracks without turning on their own radars, even guiding AIM-120 AMRAAMs onto their targets via their IRST's targeting information. By the time the missile's own radar activates, it is too late for the enemy, in seconds they would be destroyed by F-16s they never new were there, all the while thinking the F-15s were still well outside of their own AIM-120 AMRAAM's engagement range. "









Infrared Search And Track Systems And The Future Of The US Fighter Force


Lockheed has a new modular sensor system for combat aircraft dubbed the "Legion Pod" that aims at plugging a major hole in US air warfare capability. It provides a bolt-on Infrared Search and Track (IRST) system for optically hunting down enemy aircraft, especially stealthy ones, that our radars...




jalopnik.com

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## araz

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Why not?
> 
> What’s that?


Firstly cost vs benefits. The Taiwanese order was around 8 billion for 55 aircrafts. The airframe life is limited as these airframes are now nearly 40 years old.
HPS are hardpoints for hanging tanks and missiles/bombs.
A

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## GriffinsRule

Signalian said:


> AM I not understanding it correctly ?
> 
> "
> Once the electromagnetically silent F-16s are within range, they can create their own engagement quality target tracks without turning on their own radars, even guiding AIM-120 AMRAAMs onto their targets via their IRST's targeting information. By the time the missile's own radar activates, it is too late for the enemy, in seconds they would be destroyed by F-16s they never new were there, all the while thinking the F-15s were still well outside of their own AIM-120 AMRAAM's engagement range. "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infrared Search And Track Systems And The Future Of The US Fighter Force
> 
> 
> Lockheed has a new modular sensor system for combat aircraft dubbed the "Legion Pod" that aims at plugging a major hole in US air warfare capability. It provides a bolt-on Infrared Search and Track (IRST) system for optically hunting down enemy aircraft, especially stealthy ones, that our radars...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jalopnik.com


FLIR vs IRST

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## Talon

Signalian said:


> SNIPER has FLIR.
> AMRAAM has own seeker which can get activated at the final stage while it receives all info through data link, so may not need aircraft's radar.


FLIR and IRST are different things, SNIPER's FLIR at max has a range of about 30nm if I am not wrong.

AMRAAM can be uncaged and used like a sidewinder but only at close ranges and that too is not very effective.

The missile only doesn't need guidance after it activates its own radar and the term for that is Pitbull.



Signalian said:


> AM I not understanding it correctly ?
> 
> "
> Once the electromagnetically silent F-16s are within range, they can create their own engagement quality target tracks without turning on their own radars, even guiding AIM-120 AMRAAMs onto their targets via their IRST's targeting information. By the time the missile's own radar activates, it is too late for the enemy, in seconds they would be destroyed by F-16s they never new were there, all the while thinking the F-15s were still well outside of their own AIM-120 AMRAAM's engagement range. "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Infrared Search And Track Systems And The Future Of The US Fighter Force
> 
> 
> Lockheed has a new modular sensor system for combat aircraft dubbed the "Legion Pod" that aims at plugging a major hole in US air warfare capability. It provides a bolt-on Infrared Search and Track (IRST) system for optically hunting down enemy aircraft, especially stealthy ones, that our radars...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jalopnik.com



It means that F-15s will use IRST and guide the F16s to the area where bandit is flying,the F16s will then slave their radars to that area and fire their missiles hoping that the missile will be able to get a lock.The missile can be fired in two different modes TWS and RWS..in this scenario TWS might be used, the pilot will keep directing the missile towards the bandit area and only at the final moments missile will go Pitbull and might hit the target flying in that area.

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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer

The amazing condition of this over 35 year old Viper airframe is a tribute to the capabilities of PAF engineers.

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## ghazi52

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1401041088295677952

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## ghazi52

*Syed Zohaib Zaidi Photography added a new photo.* 

VIPER LEGACY!

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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer

The Challenge of performing over Islamabad. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1401520429966188547

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## Incog_nito

PAF should negotiate with the USA on a possible purchase of 34 F-16 from Iraq that would be upgraded in USA to Block -70 level and later 18 F-16 from PAF inventory too.

So, PAF will have a total of 52 F-16s Block -70

Moreover, some more used F-16s A/B models can be bought from USA and a program for avionics upgradation of the Block-15s of PAF can also be carried out in the USA to bring it near to Block-70s.

As, Pakistan is negotiating with USA over some presence of Troops in Pakistan. Then it's the best time to ask USA these stuff.

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## Aamir Hussain

Great Plan!! Small problem though, US is not ready to play ball or finance/underwrite any Pak acquisition of US weapons.

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## Yasser76

Aamir Hussain said:


> Great Plan!! Small problem though, US is not ready to play ball or finance/underwrite any Pak acquisition of US weapons.



I think a deal could be done on basing. If the US were to lease 2 bases Pak could in return demand release of CSF or ask for EDA. As it's Army involved in these negotiations I expect some quid pro quo is the bases do go ahead. No way would we let a foreign country operate out of Pak while the same foreign country denies us weapons systems. If the basing negotiations fail then expect US to try and come down hard on us.

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## Air Wolf

Things are very different from 2001. A lot has changed. Collective mindset of the nation has evolved. Thought process suggesting giving bases and getting equipment/benefits in return is based in naivete. 

It will be political suicide of any party who agrees to this and will turn the country into hellhole again where bomb blasts were happening everywhere.

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## Yasser76

Air Wolf said:


> Things are very different from 2001. A lot has changed. Collective mindset of the nation has evolved. Thought process suggesting giving bases and getting equipment/benefits in return is based in naivete.
> 
> It will be political suicide of any party who agrees to this and will turn the country into hellhole again where bomb blasts were happening everywhere.




One or two bases will not turn Pakistan to Civil War, also it is in our interests we do not destabilise Afghanistan and keep some sort of US relationship. Could be it is agreed and actioned and very few people will ever know till much later. 

On the equipment side I think US know that 10-15 years from now Pakistan will be almost completely free of US military equipment, so that leverage is falling away fast.

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## Air Wolf

Yasser76 said:


> One or two bases will not turn Pakistan to Civil War, also it is in our interests we do not destabilise Afghanistan and keep some sort of US relationship. Could be it is agreed and actioned and very few people will ever know till much later.



It's not the count rather the optics that matter. There is close to zero acceptance of US in the public now. People have not forgot what happened when Pakistan complied to US demands. Secondly, you don't want the wrath of Afghans turned towards you by giving them an excuse of US using Pakistani bases to attack them.

It's 2021. How can you even assume that American presence on Pakistani soil will go unnoticed and can be kept secret.

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## Yasser76

Air Wolf said:


> It's not the count rather the optics that matter. There is close to zero acceptance of US in the public now. People have not forgot what happened when Pakistan complied to US demands. Secondly, you don't want the wrath of Afghans turned towards you by giving them an excuse of US using Pakistani bases to attack them.
> 
> It's 2021. How can you even assume that American presence on Pakistani soil will go unnoticed and can be kept secret.



Wrath of Afghans!? You think that is what decides Pak policy? Pak Mil can keep a lot secret from the nation when it wants to. Anyway, I bow to your insider knowledge


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## ziaulislam

Yasser76 said:


> I think a deal could be done on basing. If the US were to lease 2 bases Pak could in return demand release of CSF or ask for EDA. As it's Army involved in these negotiations I expect some quid pro quo is the bases do go ahead. No way would we let a foreign country operate out of Pak while the same foreign country denies us weapons systems. If the basing negotiations fail then expect US to try and come down hard on us.


I expect they coming down hard on us

Expect more tightening from IMF AB WB

But then again IMF AB WB have been particularly useful to us recently 

going harder with sanctions will have strong long term repurcussions incase something bad happens so i doubt usa will go that way

it will be very unpopular for IK to say yes..so i doubt it will be acknowledged openly 

Same happened in 2001 noone knew till 2011

But truth comes out never the less

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## Air Wolf

Yasser76 said:


> Wrath of Afghans!? You think that is what decides Pak policy? Pak Mil can keep a lot secret from the nation when it wants to. Anyway, I bow to your insider knowledge



Of course while sitting in UK you doesn't feel the need to give weightage to Afghan sentiment while drafting a policy related to Afghanistan nor have you witnessed or felt the "wrath" our nation went through for 10-12 years.

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## m52k85

PakFactor said:


> I see Pakistani's are real quick to part their legs like the Red Sea --


Yes, is there a name for those who provide services for money or expensive gifts (watches, clothes, shoes, a few block 70s)?


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## Yasser76

Everyone here is quick to criticise but not so good at providing alternatives.

What if Pakistan refuses? What then? Are people aware of the amount of shit that can befall us?

Forget spares for F-16s or any new missiles for them

Expect pressure on European suppliers like Germany and Italy to stop supplying us

Expect a ton of shit from IMF/WB/FATF

Expect a possible state sponsor of terrorism designation

Expect India to jump and host US Forces.


But sure. instead of thinking about these things lets just carry on and make stupid prostitution analogies....

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## Scorpiooo

Either New/used F16 will be coming in future or Not. PAF need backup Plan in medium category category from Chinese or any 3rd country till project azam materialized 

This backup plan can be J10x, j31 or any other practical option (depend on loan option availability)

Russian su 35, mig 35 can be good alternative, but non practical due to CAATSA risk (so they almost out).

In coming years heavyweight fighters will become major requirement for naval protection


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## Primus

Yasser76 said:


> Everyone here is quick to criticise but not so good at providing alternatives.
> 
> What if Pakistan refuses? What then? Are people aware of the amount of shit that can befall us?
> 
> Forget spares for F-16s or any new missiles for them
> 
> Expect pressure on European suppliers like Germany and Italy to stop supplying us
> 
> Expect a ton of shit from IMF/WB/FATF
> 
> Expect a possible state sponsor of terrorism designation
> 
> Expect India to jump and host US Forces.
> 
> 
> But sure. instead of thinking about these things lets just carry on and make stupid prostitution analogies....


Hence why it's better to invest more in indigenous weaponry then to rely on external suppliers.

We should've done/ should do what China has done. Reverse engineer EVERYTHING.

Tow atgms, helicopters, fighter jets, naval ships, submarines, engines, etc etc. Reverse engineer and improve them.


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## PakFactor

Scorpiooo said:


> Either New/used F16 will be coming in future or Not. PAF need backup Plan in medium category category from Chinese or any 3rd country till project azam materialized
> 
> This backup plan can be J10x, j31 or any other practical option (depend on loan option availability)
> 
> Russian su 35, mig 35 can be good alternative, but non practical due to CAATSA risk (so they almost out).
> 
> In coming years heavyweight fighters will become major requirement for naval protection



From my source we can expect J-10 to fly in PAF before next March 23rd 2022 the deal is in the final legs. As per him it's capabilities are as good as F-16C.

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## Blacklight

PakFactor said:


> From my source we can expect J-10 to fly in PAF before next *March 23rd 2021 *the deal is in the final legs. As per him it's capabilities are as good as F-16C.


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## PakFactor

Blacklight said:


>



My bad corrected the date -- I was working on some business accounts and 2021 was on my mind lol.

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## Scorpiooo

PakFactor said:


> From my source we can expect J-10 to fly in PAF before next March 23rd 2022 the deal is in the final legs. As per him it's capabilities are as good as F-16C.


Any info abouts numbers?


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## Blacklight

PakFactor said:


> From my source we can expect J-10 to fly in PAF before next March 23rd 2022 the deal is in the final legs. As per him it's capabilities are as good as *F-16C.*


When you say F16C, it is a very ambiguous statement. 

Blks 25, 30/32, 40/42, 50/52, 70/72 are all "C's"

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## PakFactor

Scorpiooo said:


> Any info abouts numbers?



He didn't say, and I also asked about sensors and other things he kept quite.


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## Scorpiooo

Blacklight said:


> When you say F16C, it is a very ambiguous statement.
> 
> Blks 25, 30/32, 40/42, 50/52, 70/72 are all "C's"


May be they mean black 50/52. As general info J10C is still behind block 70 even can say even behind block 60

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## PakFactor

Blacklight said:


> When you say F16C, it is a very ambiguous statement.
> 
> Blks 25, 30/32, 40/42, 50/52, 70/72 are all "C's"



50/52 according to him.

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## Raider 21

ghazi52 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1401041088295677952


23rd March 91 flypast rehearsal. On the actual day of the flypast, one of the aircraft was flown by the pilot at the beginning of the video in the front seat of a B model and the cameraman in the back. Flypast was led by the the legendary Mickey Abbas.

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## Blacklight

PakFactor said:


> 50/52 according to him.


J10 with an AESA radar, and Chinese haveglass - shouldn't that be closer to Blk70/72?

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## PakFactor

Blacklight said:


> J10 with an AESA radar, and Chinese haveglass - shouldn't that be closer to Blk70/72?



This was his message below:

A short answer to your question: The J-10s would likely be in the PAF by next 23 March flypast!

In some areas, the J-10 is better than F-16C Black 50/52. The radar is an AESA type, and the PL-15 makes it very lethal. Internal fuel of both is the same. I cannot say much about the sensors, etc.

@Blacklight 

Note: I did ask him about Project AZM he completely avoided the topic and and asked him again honestly didn't show much interest in it or much enthusiasm.

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## Windjammer



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## Aamir Hussain

Yasser76 said:


> I think a deal could be done on basing. If the US were to lease 2 bases Pak could in return demand release of CSF or ask for EDA. As it's Army involved in these negotiations I expect some quid pro quo is the bases do go ahead. No way would we let a foreign country operate out of Pak while the same foreign country denies us weapons systems. If the basing negotiations fail then expect US to try and come down hard on us.



Yasser (If that is your name) the game is no longer this simple. If this was the on the table, GoP would have played along easily. But to me, it seems, things are not so much in black and white anymore. Our neighbors in the east know how to bargain and if they are out destroy Pakistani inroads into export of Basmati rice, would they accept acquisition of war material and release of funds that can be used to acquire major US defense articles by Pakistan? I think not.

It is no longer possible for us get major defense articles from US in light of India's importance to US viz a viz China containment policy of US and its Allies in Indo-Pacific theater. India, in their scheme of things plays a pivotal role in a possible outbreak of hostilities. It is earmarked to act as a major staging area to launch counter operations if Taiwan is threatened in any way. Furthermore, between, India, Japan, and Korea all three nations are equipping themselves as blue water navies with air operations capability. All three nations are gearing up their Attack Helo Fleets and upgrading their armored forces. Not to speak of their air forces and heavy lift capability. The plan is to drain China economically and divert funding from major infrastructure initiatives like Belt and Road etc. towards military spend and take the game away from China. 

So from where I sit, to me, it just ain't gonna happen!!!

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## GriffinsRule

PakFactor said:


> This was his message below:
> 
> A short answer to your question: The J-10s would likely be in the PAF by next 23 March flypast!
> 
> In some areas, the J-10 is better than F-16C Black 50/52. The radar is an AESA type, and the PL-15 makes it very lethal. Internal fuel of both is the same. I cannot say much about the sensors, etc.
> 
> @Blacklight
> 
> Note: I did ask him about Project AZM he completely avoided the topic and and asked him again honestly didn't show much interest in it or much enthusiasm.



So, in less than 9 months China will deliver J-10 to Pakistan? Generally it takes 3 years for the first aircraft to be delivered and that is pretty standard across the industry, including China. 
I'd guess if there is a J-10 in the next Mar 23rd parade, it will be one from the PLAAF demo team. Lets see if your source proves right.


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## SQ8

Aamir Hussain said:


> Yasser (If that is your name) the game is no longer this simple. If this was the on the table, GoP would have played along easily. But to me, it seems, things are not so much in black and white anymore. Our neighbors in the east know how to bargain and if they are out destroy Pakistani inroads into export of Basmati rice, would they accept acquisition of war material and release of funds that can be used to acquire major US defense articles by Pakistan? I think not.
> 
> It is no longer possible for us get major defense articles from US in light of India's importance to US viz a viz China containment policy of US and its Allies in Indo-Pacific theater. India, in their scheme of things plays a pivotal role in a possible outbreak of hostilities. It is earmarked to act as a major staging area to launch counter operations if Taiwan is threatened in any way. Furthermore, between, India, Japan, and Korea all three nations are equipping themselves as blue water navies with air operations capability. All three nations are gearing up their Attack Helo Fleets and upgrading their armored forces. Not to speak of their air forces and heavy lift capability. The plan is to drain China economically and divert funding from major infrastructure initiatives like Belt and Road etc. towards military spend and take the game away from China.
> 
> So from where I sit, to me, it just ain't gonna happen!!!


It is the exact same playbook thrown against the USSR - lets see if this communist nation takes the same bait.

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## Yasser76

Aamir Hussain said:


> Yasser (If that is your name) the game is no longer this simple. If this was the on the table, GoP would have played along easily. But to me, it seems, things are not so much in black and white anymore. Our neighbors in the east know how to bargain and if they are out destroy Pakistani inroads into export of Basmati rice, would they accept acquisition of war material and release of funds that can be used to acquire major US defense articles by Pakistan? I think not.
> 
> It is no longer possible for us get major defense articles from US in light of India's importance to US viz a viz China containment policy of US and its Allies in Indo-Pacific theater. India, in their scheme of things plays a pivotal role in a possible outbreak of hostilities. It is earmarked to act as a major staging area to launch counter operations if Taiwan is threatened in any way. Furthermore, between, India, Japan, and Korea all three nations are equipping themselves as blue water navies with air operations capability. All three nations are gearing up their Attack Helo Fleets and upgrading their armored forces. Not to speak of their air forces and heavy lift capability. The plan is to drain China economically and divert funding from major infrastructure initiatives like Belt and Road etc. towards military spend and take the game away from China.
> 
> So from where I sit, to me, it just ain't gonna happen!!!




I think you really overestimate Indian capabilities, most observers in the US accepted Ladakh showed the world India is both incapable and unwlling to stand up too China. Also Indian might could not stop weapons sales to Pakistan from Sweden, Brazil, Spain, Germany, Netherlands, Italy and Turkey.

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## Aamir Hussain

Yasser76 said:


> I think you really overestimate Indian capabilities, most observers in the US accepted Ladakh showed the world India is both incapable and unwlling to stand up too China. Also Indian might could not stop weapons sales to Pakistan from Sweden, Brazil, Spain, Germany, Netherlands, Italy and Turkey.



Buddy I am all in favor of getting high tech from US as it brings best of what is out there and the best training too. People here will not agree with me but that is the God's honest truth. 

But I don't see it happening. Case in point is AH-1Z, engine export certification of Atak, transfer of further OHP's, F-16's, and other major Armaments. We will see transfer of expandable, support, spares and transfer and/or purchase of some pure defensive or non lethal items such as radars, trucks, etc but nothing beyond that.

I would be more than happy to be proven wrong. All the power to you buddy!!!

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## Avicenna

SQ8 said:


> It is the exact same playbook thrown against the USSR - lets see if this communist nation takes the same bait.



Exactly.

But less likely to work with China.

Which is good.

The world is better off being multi polar.

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## UKBengali

Avicenna said:


> Exactly.
> 
> But less likely to work with China.
> 
> Which is good.
> 
> The world is better off being multi polar.




Soviet Union spent 12-14% of its GDP on defence, whereas China is at a little less than 2% now.

If the Chinese felt the need they can massively upgrade their firepower by going to 3% of GDP which would hardly have any major impact on their civilian economy, however they can keep their current percentage and rely on economic growth that is likely to be faster than the US for some more decades to slowly close the gap.

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## Avicenna

UKBengali said:


> Soviet Union spent 12-14% of its GDP on defence, whereas China is at a little less than 2% now.
> 
> If the Chinese felt the need they can massively upgrade their firepower by going to 3% of GDP which would hardly have any major impact on their civilian economy, however they can keep their current percentage and rely on economic growth that is likely to be faster than the US for some more decades to slowly close the gap.



But even so, on an more abstract philosophical level, the Chinese play the long game well as opposed to the Soviets.

I am sure they are quite aware of history and will act accordingly.

Also, the *communist/capitalism fusion that China* has is a different situation to the USSR.

I for one hope there is balance in the world, meaning some degree of success to China's rise.

As it relates to more F-16s or other meaningful US hardware for Pakistan.

Extremely unlikely.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> It is the exact same playbook thrown against the USSR - lets see if this communist nation takes the same bait.


There's once dark horse in China, but, ironically, the CPC is against letting it loose ...

It's democracy.

I'm not talking about human rights or political parties, but the real essence of democracy in the West, i.e., letting the capitalist elite run the show.

The CPC keeps China's private sector elite in check, but these guys (e.g., Jack Ma) understand the West inside and out. These guys are best equipped to maneuver China in ways that will make encirclement very difficult for the U.S. For starters, it allows China to solidify its ties with Western Europe (especially the UK), which would be huge from an economic and military technology standpoint.

It also ends Hong Kong and Taiwan as existential ideological issues. 

The down side is that 'freedom' is a two-way street, so whatever flows out of China, then certainly, stuff will flow into China from the U.S. as well. Moreover, the old guard will have to share the pie with the new guard.

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## Avicenna

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> There's once dark horse in China, but, ironically, the CPC is against letting it loose ...
> 
> It's democracy.
> 
> I'm not talking about human rights or political parties, but the real essence of democracy in the West, i.e., letting the capitalist elite run the show.
> 
> The CPC keeps China's private sector elite in check, but these guys (e.g., Jack Ma) understand the West inside and out. These guys are best equipped to maneuver China in ways that will make encirclement very difficult for the U.S. For starters, it allows China to solidify its ties with Western Europe (especially the UK), which would be huge from an economic and military technology standpoint.
> 
> It also ends Hong Kong and Taiwan as existential ideological issues.
> 
> *The down side is that 'freedom' is a two-way street, so whatever flows out of China, then certainly, stuff will flow into China from the U.S. as well. Moreover, the old guard will have to share the pie with the new guard.*



Glasnost didn't end up so well for USSR.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Avicenna said:


> Glasnost didn't end up so well for USSR.


IMO that's not a 1:1 example.

Unlike the Soviet Union, China is already a thriving market-based economy. Yes, there are some central planning and state control mechanisms, but not too far from what Western Europe is doing.

China already has a consumer class and a growing number of big private sector market players (e.g., AliBaba, Tencent, etc). Even China's SOEs are capable of operating on their own with internally funded R&D programs.

Everyone in China knows what transparency and accountability look like (though they may choose to intentionally obscure it for one reason or another). 

Moreover, there's nothing at stake in China except for political power and maybe top bureaucratic posts. However, those two domains are tied to the CPC.

The Chinese have every reason to stand with the CPC as the CPC was the one to bring them to their current position. It's up to the CPC to now decide whether it wants to defer to a new leadership, or evolve internally.

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## PakFactor

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO that's not a 1:1 example.
> 
> Unlike the Soviet Union, China is already a thriving market-based economy. Yes, there are some central planning and state control mechanisms, but not too far from what Western Europe is doing.
> 
> China already has a consumer class and a growing number of big private sector market players (e.g., AliBaba, Tencent, etc). Even China's SOEs are capable of operating on their own with internally funded R&D programs.
> 
> Basically, there's nothing to sell in China except for political power and maybe bureaucratic posts. However, those two domains are tied to the CPC.
> 
> The Chinese have every reason to stand with the CPC as the CPC was the one to bring them to their current position. It's up to the CPC to now decide whether it wants to defer to a new leadership, or evolve internally.



I'm a economist and business owner and have taught econ classes over the years in the US. While the typical average American hates Communism due to Cold War stigma. I've said over the years China is different they are what USSR always wanted to be but couldn't due to Cold War politics. China is a blend between Capitalism and Control Economics; and they've far exceeded many expectations.

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## Avicenna

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> IMO that's not a 1:1 example.
> 
> Unlike the Soviet Union, China is already a thriving market-based economy. Yes, there are some central planning and state control mechanisms, but not too far from what Western Europe is doing.
> 
> China already has a consumer class and a growing number of big private sector market players (e.g., AliBaba, Tencent, etc). Even China's SOEs are capable of operating on their own with internally funded R&D programs.
> 
> Everyone in China knows what transparency and accountability look like (though they may choose to intentionally obscure it for one reason or another).
> 
> Moreover, there's nothing at stake in China except for political power and maybe top bureaucratic posts. However, those two domains are tied to the CPC.
> 
> The Chinese have every reason to stand with the CPC as the CPC was the one to bring them to their current position. It's up to the CPC to now decide whether it wants to defer to a new leadership, or evolve internally.



Very true.

However, opening the political door a little may allow others to break open that door with force.

This is playing with fire given the West's prowess with machinations.

Right now, it seems like whatever China is doing is working for them more or less.

So long as the Chinese population is fed, entertained, and reasonably happy, the Chinese leadership really has no reason to rock the boat.

Also Jack Ma disappearing for some time may foretell what direction Xi has in mind for the future.

In any case, this is getting too off topic so I will end my two cents here.

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## PakFactor

Avicenna said:


> Very true.
> 
> However, opening the political door a little may allow others to break open that door with force.
> 
> This is playing with fire given the West's prowess with machinations.
> 
> Right now, it seems like whatever China is doing is working for them more or less.
> 
> So long as the Chinese population is fed, entertained, and reasonably happy, the Chinese leadership really has no reason to rock the boat.
> 
> Also Jack Ma disappearing for some time may foretell what direction Xi has in mind for the future.



Not to forget China's economic weapon is it's population soon to be the biggest consumption economy in the world. Few years back that was demonstrated by the Kia/Hyundai scandal and how its trashed their market, the CEO came out apologizing.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

PakFactor said:


> I'm a economist and business owner and have taught econ classes over the years in the US. While the typical average American hates Communism due to Cold War stigma. I've said over the years China is different they are what USSR always wanted to be but couldn't due to Cold War politics. China is a blend between Capitalism and Control Economics; and they've far exceeded many expectations.


Yep ... China is a liberal market economy with a self-sustaining middle layer of bureaucracy and SOEs, and a centralized command leadership in the CPC. In terms of political economy, it's basically a pyramid.

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## Scorpiooo

Just humble reminder: This thread belong to PAF f16 ... 🤔 🤔 🤔 not to china maket

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## ghazi52

True, while reading this thread at no point my mind was on F-16 issue, flowing in for China market......................

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## Mk-313

PakFactor said:


> Not to forget China's economic weapon is it's population soon to be the biggest consumption economy in the world. Few years back that was demonstrated by the Kia/Hyundai scandal and how its trashed their market, the CEO came out apologizing.



china cant be a consumer economy unless it avoids the middle income trap. CCP is trying hard to get to a consumer driven economy by 2025. if it succeeds then it truly rivals the US. the other threat looming is the disastrous imapct of 1-child policy. as most of the labor force will retire at once while not having enough population in the labor pool to support them

In the past, japan, korea were all at the level of where china is today. sadly they all fell for the middle income trap


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## ghazi52

Here we go...................................................

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## Aamir Hussain

If we want release of F-16, access to retired/stored airframes or third country stock we will need to offer some kind of carrot to the US. These days, reportedly, US is looking for air bases close to Afghanistan to launch drone missions if need be. 

Now if we do agree to it, than the questions is what would we ask in return and how to package the acceptance, domestically and what would be the blow back from across the border. 

Not doing so would result in what kind of fall out an from whom?

The advantages are obvious, if negotiated from a position of strength, release of withheld CSF, release of F-16's, & AH 1Z's, License to export double the number of LHTEC T800-4A engines (On Frame and spare engines) Third country transfer of F-16's and access to EDA land weapons and air crafts (Difficult to negotiate the latest version of AMRAAM) This is the obvious windfall. How much the US agree to all this depends upon how hungry they are and how much pressure India can bear upon them to not to do so. 

The blow back will in the shape of political point scoring by the usual suspects, religious right will make a hue and cry with obvious political tint, and likely hood of Af Talibs facilitating Pak Taliban for cross border raids into Pakistan. To some extent, the last point can be managed. Financial squeeze and FATF censure will be a factor played in game. 

What if we don't give access. US will then use overflights to target AF Talibans ( we will indirectly be giving them access in way) and might face the same blow back as described in the previous paragraph. US might then promote a more active role to be played by India in Afghanistan if they don't get basing rights in Pakistan. 

In all this, what would be the reaction of China? How will they view the use of an airbase by US?

The permutation and combinations are endless and there is no simple answer to all of this. In the end Pakistan has to weigh its decisions keeping in view its short term and log term goals in the region. But above all see the benefits of a uni polar or a bipolar approach to its regional strategy.

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## Yasser76

Aamir Hussain said:


> If we want release of F-16, access to retired/stored airframes or third country stock we will need to offer some kind of carrot to the US. These days, reportedly, US is looking for air bases close to Afghanistan to launch drone missions if need be.
> 
> Now if we do agree to it, than the questions is what would we ask in return and how to package the acceptance, domestically and what would be the blow back from across the border.
> 
> Not doing so would result in what kind of fall out an from whom?
> 
> The advantages are obvious, if negotiated from a position of strength, release of withheld CSF, release of F-16's, & AH 1Z's, License to export double the number of LHTEC T800-4A engines (On Frame and spare engines) Third country transfer of F-16's and access to EDA land weapons and air crafts (Difficult to negotiate the latest version of AMRAAM) This is the obvious windfall. How much the US agree to all this depends upon how hungry they are and how much pressure India can bear upon them to not to do so.
> 
> The blow back will in the shape of political point scoring by the usual suspects, religious right will make a hue and cry with obvious political tint, and likely hood of Af Talibs facilitating Pak Taliban for cross border raids into Pakistan. To some extent, the last point can be managed. Financial squeeze and FATF censure will be a factor played in game.
> 
> What if we don't give access. US will then use overflights to target AF Talibans ( we will indirectly be giving them access in way) and might face the same blow back as described in the previous paragraph. US might then promote a more active role to be played by India in Afghanistan if they don't get basing rights in Pakistan.
> 
> In all this, what would be the reaction of China? How will they view the use of an airbase by US?
> 
> The permutation and combinations are endless and there is no simple answer to all of this. In the end Pakistan has to weigh its decisions keeping in view its short term and log term goals in the region. But above all see the benefits of a uni polar or a bipolar approach to its regional strategy.




Kind of weird, this is what I was saying and in post 15,481 on the previous page you contridicted me.....

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## Iceman2

ghazi52 said:


> Here we go...................................................
> 
> View attachment 751951


Naya hai?


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## Aamir Hussain

Yasser76 said:


> Kind of weird, this is what I was saying and in post 15,481 on the previous page you contridicted me.....



No buddy I did not contradict myself, I am in this post, outlying what needs to be done on our side and on the US side. The real issue is still how India will play out its cards if Pakistan fold under pressure. I still believe, it wont happen as containment of China is a bigger issue than keeping Kabul intact.

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## Yasser76

Aamir Hussain said:


> No buddy I did not contradict myself, I am in this post, outlying what needs to be done on our side and on the US side. The real issue is still how India will play out its cards if Pakistan fold under pressure. I still believe, it wont happen as containment of China is a bigger issue than keeping Kabul intact.



OK, well I have reread it and we will have to disagree, chance seems to keep changing. Let's leave it at that

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## ghazi52



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## Deltadart

Aamir Hussain said:


> If we want release of F-16, access to retired/stored airframes or third country stock we will need to offer some kind of carrot to the US. These days, reportedly, US is looking for air bases close to Afghanistan to launch drone missions if need be.
> 
> Now if we do agree to it, than the questions is what would we ask in return and how to package the acceptance, domestically and what would be the blow back from across the border.
> 
> Not doing so would result in what kind of fall out an from whom?
> 
> The advantages are obvious, if negotiated from a position of strength, release of withheld CSF, release of F-16's, & AH 1Z's, License to export double the number of LHTEC T800-4A engines (On Frame and spare engines) Third country transfer of F-16's and access to EDA land weapons and air crafts (Difficult to negotiate the latest version of AMRAAM) This is the obvious windfall. How much the US agree to all this depends upon how hungry they are and how much pressure India can bear upon them to not to do so.
> 
> The blow back will in the shape of political point scoring by the usual suspects, religious right will make a hue and cry with obvious political tint, and likely hood of Af Talibs facilitating Pak Taliban for cross border raids into Pakistan. To some extent, the last point can be managed. Financial squeeze and FATF censure will be a factor played in game.
> 
> What if we don't give access. US will then use overflights to target AF Talibans ( we will indirectly be giving them access in way) and might face the same blow back as described in the previous paragraph. US might then promote a more active role to be played by India in Afghanistan if they don't get basing rights in Pakistan.
> 
> In all this, what would be the reaction of China? How will they view the use of an airbase by US?
> 
> The permutation and combinations are endless and there is no simple answer to all of this. In the end Pakistan has to weigh its decisions keeping in view its short term and log term goals in the region. But above all see the benefits of a uni polar or a bipolar approach to its regional strategy.


Everything you suggested has been tried before. This time around the benefits of not giving bases out weight the benefits of giving bases. I believe after the foreign troops withdrawal, the air and ground access will end as well. We need to get out of others wars, and work for economic and social development of our nation. It's about time we put Pakistan first.

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## Windjammer

*Sherdils Viper sits in it's HAS on ADA.*

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## truthseeker2010

Windjammer said:


> *Sherdils Viper sits in it's HAS on ADA.*
> 
> View attachment 752720



No AIM-120 for ADA?

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## Windjammer

truthseeker2010 said:


> No AIM-120 for ADA?


In many sectors, JF-17s have taken over ADA duties from F-16s.
And it's not as if all air engagements are BVR combats.

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## FuturePAF

Considering the US is signaling a desire for renewed military cooperation with Pakistan, could this be the time Pakistan should approach the US to allow Pakistan to upgrade the F-16 in a few minor ways?

considering the evolution in IRST technology and our relationship with Leonardo, should Pakistan seek an addition to its F-16s so that they feature a nose mounted IRST, similar to the F-16 Block 60? If Pakistan can’t get an AESA on our F-16s, at least through a different sensor it maybe able to pick up enemy fighters a different way, and engage them further out; at the maximum NEZ of the Aim-120C5. A stop gap measure until political winds change and allow Pakistan to get an AESA on the aircraft.



https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/ee32861760fcc9da78ffb7a9847f2ada.jpg?w=624



Perhaps Leonardo would be willing to sell the PIRATE IRST from the Eurofighter. If not that IRST, there is also the Skyward IRST used on the Gripen.









Pirate IRST







www.leonardocompany.com












Skyward







www.leonardocompany.com





The Italians could put their IRST into an “Open Pod” Design, with one IRST “head” option, while they could have another EW AESA “head” option. 





The other upgrades would be avionics upgrades to better integrate the IRST and share the data between aircraft and other platforms and the C4ISR network.

P.S. IRST advancements are being made, so getting the best IRST possible can make a huge difference. Perhaps using the sniper pod the same can be achieved, which is probably why the PAF never pursued the IRST option for the F-16 and even went with the IRST pod option for the JF-17.

here are some of the latest to show the advancements between the F-35 EOTS and the new “Advanced EOTS” as a reference









F-35 Electro Optical Targeting System (EOTS)


The Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) is the world’s first sensor that combines forward-looking infrared (FLIR) and infrared search and track (IRST) functionality for an affordable, high-performance, multi-function system that provides precision air-to-air and air-to-surface targeting...




www.lockheedmartin.com

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## Sifar zero

PakFactor said:


> From my source we can expect J-10 to fly in PAF before next March 23rd 2022 the deal is in the final legs. As per him it's capabilities are as good as F-16C.


Is your source Haqeeqat TV??Just joking.
We would have like 6 fighter's until Mirage and F 7 is retired.
I think this deal would be the same as VT 4 the crews would be in training right now in China and then in the end the planes would be revealed in an exercise or a parade.

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## PakFactor

Sifar zero said:


> Is your source Haqeeqat TV??Just joking.
> We would have like 6 fighter's until Mirage and F 7 is retired.
> I think this deal would be the same as VT 4 the crews would be in training right now in China and then in the end the planes would be revealed in an exercise or a parade.



Pretty much how it'll be train and come with it.

I envision PAF being more streamlined, with Western Platform F-16 + Mirages & Eastern Platform J-10 + JF-17 Combo. In my view and from some I've spoken to said PAF access to Western Fighters will be down to 0. If we get F-16s its one thing but don't expect more than this, when our F-16 have reached their life span.

According to one PAF Officer who's a distant relative said, "Western priorities have changed, we will be approaching the end of the run way with them". Note: In terms of advanced fighter platforms.

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## FuturePAF

PakFactor said:


> From my source we can expect J-10 to fly in PAF before next March 23rd 2022 the deal is in the final legs. As per him it's capabilities are as good as F-16C.



Was the issue of reluctance with a J-10 procurement their engines or the hopes that the F-16s would be released. Now that the engines have reached a certain level of maturity it seems that shouldn’t be the issue, while the political winds don’t seem to favor a F-16 Block 70 sale or even release of EDF F-16s.

Would love to see at least 2 if not 4-6 squadrons of J-10 in the PAF. The J-10CE is probably nearly a match for the F-16 Block 70 considering how rapidly Chinese industry is advancing. An export order for the J-10 can open up more sales for CAC in a similar way the PAF operations of the Jf-17 have done for sales of that aircraft. Slow and steady by a shift is occurring.

Really hope the PL-15 or a follow up or an alternative Chinese missile will exceed the performance of the Meteor and give the Indians nightmares the way the F-16s have done for the last 40 years.


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## Ali_Baba

FuturePAF said:


> Really hope the PL-15 or a follow up or an alternative Chinese missile will exceed the performance of the Meteor and give the Indians nightmares the way the F-16s have done for the last 40 years.



The PL15 is more than capable of matching the Meteor.What will beat it will be the PL-21 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL-21

Very little known about it now, but as with all Chinese weapons development projects, they tend to turn up when you least expect them to.

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## Scorpiooo

Ali_Baba said:


> The PL15 is more than capable of matching the Meteor.What will beat it will be the PL-21 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL-21
> 
> Very little known about it now, but as with all Chinese weapons development projects, they tend to turn up when you least expect them to.


PL already integrated on multiple new heavy plateform and are under testing

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## PakFactor

FuturePAF said:


> Was the issue of reluctance with a J-10 procurement their engines or the hopes that the F-16s would be released. Now that the engines have reached a certain level of maturity it seems that shouldn’t be the issue, while the political winds don’t seem to favor a F-16 Block 70 sale or even release of EDF F-16s.
> 
> Would love to see at least 2 if not 4-6 squadrons of J-10 in the PAF. The J-10CE is probably nearly a match for the F-16 Block 70 considering how rapidly Chinese industry is advancing. An export order for the J-10 can open up more sales for CAC in a similar way the PAF operations of the Jf-17 have done for sales of that aircraft. Slow and steady by a shift is occurring.
> 
> Really hope the PL-15 or a follow up or an alternative Chinese missile will exceed the performance of the Meteor and give the Indians nightmares the way the F-16s have done for the last 40 years.



With J-10 AESA + PL-15 it’ll be a lethal combo this is what we’ll be getting. Now we also have to see if JF-17 will carry some sort of capable BVR like PL-15, besides SD-10, etc.

One other thing he mentioned awhile back last year, a lot of these systems like Spectra, etc are really untested against a competent adversary, the West have only fought against 3rd rate countries or militias that’s about it. While they tout these systems, things change in the 1st contact with the enemy, case in point Feb 27th, 2019 - the only attack in modern war carried out against another enemy who have similar capabilities (and competency and was on high alert after their failed attack) with PAF using AWACS, counter measures and Stand of Weapons and BVR Engagement.

As for your 1st point it’s a lot of things, but mostly to see which route India would go and what options PAF has to counter it, along with the maturity of the platform as well.

But I see a problem with this approach and I’ve discussed it with few people as well. You can’t keep matching India you have to think of a bigger enemy and how to engage them and that positioning would take care of India on its own. You need a way to counter U.S. because the they will be gunning for Pakistan down the road.

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## FuturePAF

As a follow on to the IRST suggestion, which may not work due to the extensive integration work. Perhaps a shortcut/more simple alternative would be to see if Leonardo would be willing to make a pod version of its Pirate or Skyward IRST, which our F-16s and even our JF-17 could carry.

A JF-17 with a PL-15, an AESA radar, and one of the world’s leading IRST as a pod would definitely be a lethal combination, especially with the right tactics.

There is also the option for the PAF to just outright try to purchase the LEGION IRST Pod. It’s not like officially Pakistan is barred from sales, so it maybe something to look into.





BTW, I hope, now that the WingLong II are operational, they will be IRST equipped to take on some CAP missions. Equipped with the SD-10 or even PL-15, it could serve as a Loyal Wingman; a good screening force in contested airspace where the latest enemy fighters and air defense systems operate.





The PAF should consider transferring the SD-10 to home defense UCAV mission, while buying a large number of PL-15 for all its JF-17s. The SD-10s could be modified with an IR seeker and used (along with an IRST and small Aesa radar) to arm WingLongII to serve as a “Flying SAM battery” around major air bases to shoot down enemy PGMs as is being tested at Creech AFB near Vegas









ABMS Onramp 2 sees second MQ-9 AIM-9X shot and other CMD tactics development


From employing an AIM-9X from an MQ-9 to improving AGR-20 cruise missile defense tactics from the F-16, units across the 53d Wing played a critical role in the Advanced Battle Management System Onramp



www.creech.af.mil


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## Deltadart

The F16s era is finally over.
Obviously they will soldier on for few more decades, depending on foreign support, but future lies in local or eastern weapons.

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## Scorpiooo

Deltadart said:


> The F16s era is finally over.
> Obviously they will soldier on for few more decades, depending on foreign support, but future lies in local or eastern weapons.


PAF love for F16s can't be over that easily


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## applesauce

Mk-313 said:


> china cant be a consumer economy unless it avoids the middle income trap. CCP is trying hard to get to a consumer driven economy by 2025. if it succeeds then it truly rivals the US. the other threat looming is the disastrous imapct of 1-child policy. as most of the labor force will retire at once while not having enough population in the labor pool to support them
> 
> In the past, japan, korea were all at the level of where china is today. sadly they all fell for the middle income trap



what? japan, korea is middle income? lol what alternate dimension are you from?

world bank's definition of a high income country is $12,535 per capita. even china now(~10k) is close to that number let alone japan and korea.

also at current trends, china will still have over 1 billion people in 2100. thats a completely good number, overpopulation is not a good thing. china just needs to work on stabilization the population. in addition, china's consumption is at about 40%, not quite the 55% of advanced economies, but its getting there and its huge size means even at a lower percentage it'll still the second largest in the world


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## Mk-313

applesauce said:


> what? japan, korea is middle income? lol what alternate dimension are you from?
> 
> world bank's definition of a high income country is $12,535 per capita. even china now(~10k) is close to that number let alone japan and korea.
> 
> also at current trends, china will still have over 1 billion people in 2100. thats a completely good number, overpopulation is not a good thing. china just needs to work on stabilization the population. in addition, china's consumption is at about 40%, not quite the 55% of advanced economies, but its getting there and its huge size means even at a lower percentage it'll still the second largest in the world


You should really research before you look stupid. But yes Japan Korea they all fell into middle income traps. So I’ll school you a bit

Middle income trap is when a rising export economy starts to slow down because of its own rise. As exports grow the currency and labor becomes more expensive and exports starts to shift to the next cheapest country

Between the time exports starts to shifted as labor becomes more expensive there is a very narrow window an economy has to shift entirely to a consumer based economy. So that even if the exports are shifted it does not matter the domestic economy can bear its weight and continue growing at pace 

If the middle income trap is not avoided economies fall behind and it takes them decades to recover from them. Only 15 economies to date have recovered from the middle income traps which includes Japan and south korea

But if Japan had not fell into middle income trap it would’ve been a bigger economy than the USA.



Aiming for the Top: Can China Escape the Middle Income Trap? - CKGSB



As for China

wrong chinas domestic consumer economy is 38%

The problem is not the population itself the problem is the ratio of aging population to working population. As population reaches the retirement age they no longer participate in the economy and that causes gdp to go down.

2- If the aging population is not replaced with equal amount of working population then the balance shifts more money is then spent to take care of the aging population vs in research, technology investment etc.

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## applesauce

Mk-313 said:


> You should really research before you look stupid. But yes Japan Korea they all fell into middle income traps. So I’ll school you a bit
> 
> Middle income trap is when a rising export economy starts to slow down because of its own rise. As exports grow the currency and labor becomes more expensive and exports starts to shift to the next cheapest country
> 
> Between the time exports starts to shifted as labor becomes more expensive there is a very narrow window an economy has to shift entirely to a consumer based economy. So that even if the exports are shifted it does not matter the domestic economy can bear its weight and continue growing at pace
> 
> If the middle income trap is not avoided economies fall behind and it takes them decades to recover from them. Only 15 economies to date have recovered from the middle income traps which includes Japan and south korea
> 
> But if Japan had not fell into middle income trap it would’ve been a bigger economy than the USA.
> 
> 
> 
> Aiming for the Top: Can China Escape the Middle Income Trap? - CKGSB
> 
> 
> 
> As for China
> 
> wrong chinas domestic consumer economy is 38%
> 
> The problem is not the population itself the problem is the ratio of aging population to working population. As population reaches the retirement age they no longer participate in the economy and that causes gdp to go down.
> 
> 2- If the aging population is not replaced with equal amount of working population then the balance shifts more money is then spent to take care of the aging population vs in research, technology investment etc.



"school"?? I think you're the one that needs to go back and study.

middle income trap isn't just economy stagnation. what japan experienced is not middle income trap, they never fell into the middle income trap as you so accuses them of

Japan had basically smooth sailing from ww2 all the way to developed status, at no time did they fall into the middle income trap and thus they never had to escape it.

Their growth was very high, then high, then a clear stagnation starting the 1990s. at no point did they stagnate when their per capita gdp was low.






by the time their economy stagnated in 1990-ish, Japan's gdp per capita was ~25k usd. that's even higher than the US per capita gdp of ~23k at the time.

Japan simply couldn't have surpassed the usa for the simple reason that they would have to be more than twice as productive per person as the average american, and the us was already at the forefront of productivity. it would take a new industrial revolution for that to happen.

China meanwhile can be less than half as productive as the average american and still have a larger total economy and consumer market. that's the fundamental difference right there.

Same story for south korea, their GDP growth, except for a couple crisis's, was steady and quite high until they were already a rich nation. at no point did south korea fall into and therefore had to escape the middle income trap.






You want to know who did fall into the middle income trap and have failed to escape it so far?






Notice the multiple dips into the negative, and low average growth for years even while their per capita GDP is only like 8000ish even today.

now on china. china's GDP already puts it a stone's throw from high income nation status. Also china is not a nanny state, the state have not and does not provide all costs for the elderly, Elderly care costs will increase but will not be a unbearable costs on the state and so long as the elderly cost isn't unbearable then china is fine, it'll still have the second largest labor force well into 2100s.and thing bold very well for china's service future beyond simply manufacturing, it already has some of the most advanced and digital systems, for instance mobile payments, and highly developed online shopping systems, cash is less and less seen these days in china. the likes of huawei, which the us is so scared of, shows that china can indeed lead in new technologies


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## Mk-313

applesauce said:


> "school"?? I think you're the one that needs to go back and study.
> 
> middle income trap isn't just economy stagnation. what japan experienced is not middle income trap, they never fell into the middle income trap as you so accuses them of
> 
> Japan had basically smooth sailing from ww2 all the way to developed status, at no time did they fall into the middle income trap and thus they never had to escape it.



Read the damn link i post next time so you dont look more stupid. so here ill post it straight out from chinas mouthpiece newspaper global times

"Japan, South Korea and Singapore took different approaches to *overcome the middle-income trap* and successfully fostered a stable middle class to form a rugby-shaped society in terms of income."

https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/985626.shtml
*How 3 East Asian countries have overcome middle-income trap*






applesauce said:


> now on china. china's GDP already puts it a stone's throw from high income nation status. Also china is not a nanny state, the state have not and does not provide all costs for the elderly, Elderly care costs will increase but will not be a unbearable costs on the state and so long as the elderly cost isn't unbearable then china is fine, it'll still have the second largest labor force well into 2100s.and thing bold very well for china's service future beyond simply manufacturing, it already has some of the most advanced and digital systems, for instance mobile payments, and highly developed online shopping systems, cash is less and less seen these days in china. the likes of huawei, which the us is so scared of, shows that china can indeed lead in new technologies



ok, well make sure you send this nonsense to central bank of china and all the world economists i am sure theyre stupid publishing papers and making the government remove thier one child policy

"The aging of the population has further deepened, and in the coming period [we will] continue to face pressure for the long-term, balanced development of the population," Ning Jizhe, head of China's statistics office, said at a news conference Tuesday in Beijing."
https://www.npr.org/2021/05/11/9954...drops-as-census-data-warn-of-aging-population

----------------------
"In two dedicated sections of the paper, researchers from the People’s Bank of China laid out how these demographic issues put China at an economic disadvantage to the U.S. and India.

“If my country has narrowed the gap with the U.S. over the past 40 years by relying on cheap labor and the bonus of a huge population, what can it rely on in the next 30 years? This is worth thinking over,” the authors wrote in Chinese, according to a CNBC translation."

"In 2019, China’s workforce as a proportion of the total population was 5.4 percentage points higher than the U.S. However, by 2050, China’s workforce proportion will be 1.3 percentage points smaller than the U.S., the paper said"
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/15/chi...aper-suggests-dropping-childbirth-limits.html


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## applesauce

Mk-313 said:


> Read the damn link i post next time so you dont look more stupid. so here ill post it straight out from chinas mouthpiece newspaper global times
> 
> "Japan, South Korea and Singapore took different approaches to *overcome the middle-income trap* and successfully fostered a stable middle class to form a rugby-shaped society in terms of income."
> 
> https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/985626.shtml
> *How 3 East Asian countries have overcome middle-income trap*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ok, well make sure you send this nonsense to central bank of china and all the world economists i am sure theyre stupid publishing papers and making the government remove thier one child policy
> 
> "The aging of the population has further deepened, and in the coming period [we will] continue to face pressure for the long-term, balanced development of the population," Ning Jizhe, head of China's statistics office, said at a news conference Tuesday in Beijing."
> https://www.npr.org/2021/05/11/9954...drops-as-census-data-warn-of-aging-population
> 
> ----------------------
> "In two dedicated sections of the paper, researchers from the People’s Bank of China laid out how these demographic issues put China at an economic disadvantage to the U.S. and India.
> 
> “If my country has narrowed the gap with the U.S. over the past 40 years by relying on cheap labor and the bonus of a huge population, what can it rely on in the next 30 years? This is worth thinking over,” the authors wrote in Chinese, according to a CNBC translation."
> 
> "In 2019, China’s workforce as a proportion of the total population was 5.4 percentage points higher than the U.S. However, by 2050, China’s workforce proportion will be 1.3 percentage points smaller than the U.S., the paper said"
> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/15/chi...aper-suggests-dropping-childbirth-limits.html




how about you read what you wrote?

you said, and i quote

" *Japan Korea they all fell into middle income traps*"

point is, *no they did not*. they sailed past it smoothly.

All of your articles agree with me, that SK, japan, all became developed/rich without issue through various ways. but you continue to try as say they fell into it then escape it. no they did not, they never fell into it in the first place.
god damn, its like you can't read your own sources or something.

First you can't read your own sources, then you cant read what i wrote.

i said and i quote my self.

" china just needs to work on stabilizing the population"

replacement rate for populations is about 2.1 child per couple. hence the 3 child policy. a billion people in china is more than enough in the foreseeable future, it'll be the second largest population in a country no matter what.

and you clearly don't know what total labor force vs workforce proportion.

again , the elderly care costs are lower in china than in the us, and such costs, given the high chinese savings rates and other reasons will not be unbearable to china, and once that elderly population dies off then the population stabilizes there is no issue.

at worse china has a slower growth rate for 20 years, 30 years from now, but see that doesnt matter because, china, at half the productivity of the us will be twice as wealthy. and china is already a stone's throw from high income status, unless the world goes to shit tomorrow, china is virtually guaranteed to be high income way before aging population affects the economy.


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## Mk-313

applesauce said:


> " *Japan Korea they all fell into middle income traps*"
> 
> point is, *no they did not*. they sailed past it smoothly.
> 
> All of your articles agree with me, that SK, japan, all became developed/rich without issue through various ways. but you continue to try as say they fell into it then escape it. no they did not, they never fell into it in the first place.
> god damn, its like you can't read your own sources or something.
> 
> First you can't read your own sources, then you cant read what i wrote.
> 
> i said and i quote my self.
> 
> " china just needs to work on stabilizing the population"
> 
> replacement rate for populations is about 2.1 child per couple. hence the 3 child policy. a billion people in china is more than enough in the foreseeable future, it'll be the second largest population in a country no matter what.
> 
> and you clearly don't know what total labor force vs workforce proportion.
> 
> again , the elderly care costs are lower in china than in the us, and such costs, given the high chinese savings rates and other reasons will not be unbearable to china, and once that elderly population dies off then the population stabilizes there is no issue.
> 
> at worse china has a slower growth rate for 20 years, 30 years from now, but see that doesnt matter because, china, at half the productivity of the us will be twice as wealthy. and china is already a stone's throw from high income status, unless the world goes to shit tomorrow, china is virtually guaranteed to be high income way before aging population affects the economy.



Wrong. I said they fell into and they recovered and if they had not fallen into it Japan would be bigger economy than US

2- that’s what *overcoming* means to fall into and the getting out of . And yes I get it you’re trying to not look dumb so you’re flip flopping

- you 1st flip-flopped to oh Japan never fell into middle income trap to now oh but they became developed.

3- am about to make you look dumb again because labor force and work force are literally the same thing

4- you don’t even know what wealth and gdp means . Even at half the productivity you’re gdp would be double but you won’t be wealthy because the per person productivity would still be very very low
—it’s like saying a house of 1 person who earns $100 is less wealthy than the house of 5 people who earn $200.

5- You jagweed your economy is only bigger because of your population. If you have more people dying than being born then your gdp/capita will go down which in turn will your total GDP go down.
- if you have to divert more money than now to elderly care then your investment money goes down which slows down your economy growth rate. 
- if more people retire out of the work workforce than people entering the workforce then your total gdp goes down

Theres a reason your central bank is bringing these issues. But you are so reluctant to admit your wrong, that you would rather flip flop and create non sequitir issues than learning new information


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## Goritoes

@applesauce @Mk-313 can you guys take your economic discussion to another Thread?

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## Talon

Why so much hate for the F-16? It has defended you for so many years, be thankful

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## mingle

Hodor said:


> Why so much hate for the F-16? It has defended you for so many years, be thankful


Any update 👆??


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## denel

mingle said:


> Any update 👆??


update for what?


applesauce said:


> "school"?? I think you're the one that needs to go back and study.
> 
> middle income trap isn't just economy stagnation. what japan experienced is not middle income trap, they never fell into the middle income trap as you so accuses them of
> 
> Japan had basically smooth sailing from ww2 all the way to developed status, at no time did they fall into the middle income trap and thus they never had to escape it.
> 
> Their growth was very high, then high, then a clear stagnation starting the 1990s. at no point did they stagnate when their per capita gdp was low.
> 
> View attachment 753132
> 
> by the time their economy stagnated in 1990-ish, Japan's gdp per capita was ~25k usd. that's even higher than the US per capita gdp of ~23k at the time.
> 
> Japan simply couldn't have surpassed the usa for the simple reason that they would have to be more than twice as productive per person as the average american, and the us was already at the forefront of productivity. it would take a new industrial revolution for that to happen.
> 
> China meanwhile can be less than half as productive as the average american and still have a larger total economy and consumer market. that's the fundamental difference right there.
> 
> Same story for south korea, their GDP growth, except for a couple crisis's, was steady and quite high until they were already a rich nation. at no point did south korea fall into and therefore had to escape the middle income trap.
> 
> View attachment 753130
> 
> 
> You want to know who did fall into the middle income trap and have failed to escape it so far?
> 
> View attachment 753131
> 
> 
> Notice the multiple dips into the negative, and low average growth for years even while their per capita GDP is only like 8000ish even today.
> 
> now on china. china's GDP already puts it a stone's throw from high income nation status. Also china is not a nanny state, the state have not and does not provide all costs for the elderly, Elderly care costs will increase but will not be a unbearable costs on the state and so long as the elderly cost isn't unbearable then china is fine, it'll still have the second largest labor force well into 2100s.and thing bold very well for china's service future beyond simply manufacturing, it already has some of the most advanced and digital systems, for instance mobile payments, and highly developed online shopping systems, cash is less and less seen these days in china. the likes of huawei, which the us is so scared of, shows that china can indeed lead in new technologies


Please take this silly comparison of CCP glorious ness to a seperate thread. Dont waste bandwidth of this thread. It is not relevant.

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## wasileo80

Blacklight said:


> When you say F16C, it is a very ambiguous statement.
> 
> Blks 25, 30/32, 40/42, 50/52, 70/72 are all "C's"


J-10C will house AESA so Sir you can compare with similar configuration blocks of F-16s


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## White and Green with M/S

Ali_Baba said:


> The PL15 is more than capable of matching the Meteor.What will beat it will be the PL-21 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL-21
> 
> Very little known about it now, but as with all Chinese weapons development projects, they tend to turn up when you least expect them to.


I think PL-21 project is dead last ground test was held in 2012 after that no news on it according Chinese sources


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## ghazi52

"FOD Walk "

Foreign Object Debris walk is performed on flight line & runways in which dozens of Airmen line up & walk along the flight line, picking up any foreign objects they see. 

Aircraft crew chiefs perform inventories of all their tools while working on their aircraft, to ensure that nothing was left behind that could cause damage. 

The dangers of FOD, & the relatively simple steps that can be taken to prevent it, is taught to all Air Force personnel from the earliest days of their career.

Small rocks & pebbles on the flight line or along its edges can also lead to another challenge for aircraft - bird strikes ...

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## krash

ghazi52 said:


> "FOD Walk "
> 
> Foreign Object Debris walk is performed on flight line & runways in which dozens of Airmen line up & walk along the flight line, picking up any foreign objects they see.
> 
> Aircraft crew chiefs perform inventories of all their tools while working on their aircraft, to ensure that nothing was left behind that could cause damage.
> 
> The dangers of FOD, & the relatively simple steps that can be taken to prevent it, is taught to all Air Force personnel from the earliest days of their career.
> 
> Small rocks & pebbles on the flight line or along its edges can also lead to another challenge for aircraft - bird strikes ...
> 
> 
> View attachment 753408



And the Russians just used a pencil.

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## Scorpiooo

White and Green with M/S said:


> I think PL-21 project is dead last ground test was held in 2012 after that no news on it according Chinese sources


Chinese are master of secrecy.. so wait and see ..

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## White and Green with M/S

Scorpiooo said:


> Chinese are master of secrecy.. so wait and see ..


No according to various Chinese sources ramjet powdered BVR project was long dead, Chinese military chooses DUAL PULSE ROCKET MOTORS over RAMJET POWDERED BVR


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## Scorpiooo

White and Green with M/S said:


> No according to various Chinese sources ramjet powdered BVR project was long dead, Chinese military chooses DUAL PULSE ROCKET MOTORS over RAMJET POWDERED BVR


Ok quite possible, any onfo then what is alternative project of PL21 for long range BRV


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## White and Green with M/S

Scorpiooo said:


> Ok quite possible, any onfo then what is alternative project of PL21 for long ramge BRV


Search pl-20 vlaarm it had been tested on j-16 i think in 2018 it has a range of 400 km but its a very big missile ( 20 feet Long) ànd its intended targets are AWACS tankers ECM EW aircraft not fighter jets


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## ghazi52

They need more but still hate it. We are what we are...

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## ghazi52

F-16A/ADF Fighting Falcon (401)

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## ghazi52



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## mingle

Indonesia struck deal with France for36 Rafale they are out from F16 line up let's see who is that customer for which LM put second assembly line at Greenville SC

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## Trailer23

mingle said:


> Indonesia struck deal with France for36 Rafale they are out from F16 line up let's see who is that customer for which LM put second assembly line at Greenville SC


Certainly, not Pakistan.

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## Sayfullah

Is it possible PAF can get turkish Gokdogan, Bozdogan and SOM for its f-16s?


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## Blacklight

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @SQ8 @Tipu7 @LeGenD @The Eagle

I always wondered, what happened to this?









Turkey to modernise Pakistan’s F-16s | The Express Tribune


The upgrade of jets started in the last quarter of 2010 when the first three aircraft were flown to Turkey




tribune.com.pk




May 15, 2016

Turkey has agreed to modernise the Pakistan Air Force’s fleet of F-16s at a cost of $75 million amid the controversy surrounding the purchase of new jets from the United States.

A senior official of the Istanbul-based Foreign Economic Relations Board (DIEK) on Saturday told reporters both countries have struck a deal in an aviation project under which some Pakistani fighter planes have already been flown to Turkey.


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## Tipu7

It was the upgrade of F-16 ADF and it was completed by TAI. I don't know the details but the upgrades were not very comprehensive.


Blacklight said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @SQ8 @Tipu7 @LeGenD @The Eagle
> 
> I always wondered, what happened to this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turkey to modernise Pakistan’s F-16s | The Express Tribune
> 
> 
> The upgrade of jets started in the last quarter of 2010 when the first three aircraft were flown to Turkey
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tribune.com.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> May 15, 2016
> 
> Turkey has agreed to modernise the Pakistan Air Force’s fleet of F-16s at a cost of $75 million amid the controversy surrounding the purchase of new jets from the United States.
> 
> A senior official of the Istanbul-based Foreign Economic Relations Board (DIEK) on Saturday told reporters both countries have struck a deal in an aviation project under which some Pakistani fighter planes have already been flown to Turkey.

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## Indos

mingle said:


> Indonesia struck deal with France for36 Rafale they are out from F16 line up let's see who is that customer for which LM put second assembly line at Greenville SC



Rafale deal is still LOI without any approval from Minister of Finance yet. Our MoF only approved 1.1 billion USD for fighter acquisition until 2024, while France will not proceed any deal if Indonesia buy less than 36 Rafales.

So F 16 V acquisition for 1.1 billion USD deal for Indonesia is still possible..... Although that amount can also be used for F 15 EX

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## LeGenD

Blacklight said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @SQ8 @Tipu7 @LeGenD @The Eagle
> 
> I always wondered, what happened to this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turkey to modernise Pakistan’s F-16s | The Express Tribune
> 
> 
> The upgrade of jets started in the last quarter of 2010 when the first three aircraft were flown to Turkey
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tribune.com.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> May 15, 2016
> 
> Turkey has agreed to modernise the Pakistan Air Force’s fleet of F-16s at a cost of $75 million amid the controversy surrounding the purchase of new jets from the United States.
> 
> A senior official of the Istanbul-based Foreign Economic Relations Board (DIEK) on Saturday told reporters both countries have struck a deal in an aviation project under which some Pakistani fighter planes have already been flown to Turkey.


PAF contracted TAI to modernize 41 F-16 A/B Block 15 to MLU (Block 40) standard. 

Project Duration = 2010 - 2014
Status = Complete

References









PAF F-16 Modernization - TUSAS


PAF F-16 Modernization




www.tusas.com













TAI will upgrade Pakistan’s F-16 MLU fighters with nighttime capabilities


The Pakistan Air Force’s (PAF) fleet of 45 F-16A/B Block-15 Mid-Life Update (MLU)s will be upgraded by Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) with improved nighttime capabilities, C4Defence reports. ...




quwa.org

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## Ali_Baba

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Is it possible PAF can get turkish Gokdogan, Bozdogan and SOM for its f-16s?



Would be better off getting them for the JF17 fleet, right? Less Toxic and more stratgegic. - same applies to the new Turkish Jamming Pods. PAF has already added the turkish pods for LGBs, etc.

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## Metal 0-1

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 753833
> 
> 
> F-16A/ADF Fighting Falcon (401)


Interesting. ADF's IFF interrogator antennas are located both on nose and under intake.


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## ghazi52



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## khanasifm

Blacklight said:


> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @SQ8 @Tipu7 @LeGenD @The Eagle
> 
> I always wondered, what happened to this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Turkey to modernise Pakistan’s F-16s | The Express Tribune
> 
> 
> The upgrade of jets started in the last quarter of 2010 when the first three aircraft were flown to Turkey
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tribune.com.pk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> May 15, 2016
> 
> Turkey has agreed to modernise the Pakistan Air Force’s fleet of F-16s at a cost of $75 million amid the controversy surrounding the purchase of new jets from the United States.
> 
> A senior official of the Istanbul-based Foreign Economic Relations Board (DIEK) on Saturday told reporters both countries have struck a deal in an aviation project under which some Pakistani fighter planes have already been flown to Turkey.



This was all older fleet upgrade with tai charges for services only while LM provided Hardware ans software 

Jordanian supplies f-16 were not upgraded as they arrived 13/14 or arrived after original contract for upgrade 2009/10

Unless we see an upgrade contract ans work in 2014/15 onwards which would have been Adv variant upgrade bring them eq to rest of the fleet

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## ghazi52

*PAF Base Masroor, Karachi -*

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## Sayfullah

Ali_Baba said:


> Would be better off getting them for the JF17 fleet, right? Less Toxic and more stratgegic. - same applies to the new Turkish Jamming Pods. PAF has already added the turkish pods for LGBs, etc.



But if we get them for f-16s we won’t need to go for us amraams we can buy Turkish missiles and it’ll be equal to us aim120d. If we get Turkish som for f-16s it’ll give them ability to launch cruise missiles for ground attack and anti ship. 
We’ll be less reliant on usa for our f-16s and can use them to their full potential. 
We should also get those for jf-17. If we can integrate it on f-16s then we’ll have missiles that can work on both f-16s and jf-17s making logistics easier too. If we order enough maybe turks can give us ToT as well


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## FuturePAF

Scorpiooo said:


> Ok quite possible, any onfo then what is alternative project of PL21 for long range BRV


Perhaps it will come back if the PAF requests and provides some funding. The longest range missile (with the best probability of a hit) that can fit on the JF-17 should be a goal. The “PL-21” could yet be that missile. Also would be a psychological answer (for both sides) to the Meteor.


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## araz

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> But if we get them for f-16s we won’t need to go for us amraams we can buy Turkish missiles and it’ll be equal to us aim120d. If we get Turkish som for f-16s it’ll give them ability to launch cruise missiles for ground attack and anti ship.
> We’ll be less reliant on usa for our f-16s and can use them to their full potential.
> We should also get those for jf-17. If we can integrate it on f-16s then we’ll have missiles that can work on both f-16s and jf-17s making logistics easier too. If we order enough maybe turks can give us ToT as well


We cannot integrate anything on our F16s due to end user agreements. As to the JFT, their AESA will require Chinese permission and help. There will be other complexities as the Turkish might not allow the Chinese access to their source codes. If this was so easy believe me we would have integrated Amraams on JFT. Lastly we appear to be having an indegenous BVR missile in the pipeworks and should be integrated on to JFT. Ithink this would be a more worthwhile project than just buying from Turkey.
As to SOM missile I feel we have a longer ranged RAAD 2 which will be integrated on JFT. When there are local programmes we do not go and buy from outside.
My thoughts on the matter.
A

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## Trailer23

mingle said:


> Indonesia struck deal with France for36 Rafale they are out from F16 line up let's see who is that customer for which LM put second assembly line at Greenville SC


*- BREAKING NEWS -*​
US government clears F-16 sale for PAF

...& no, its not Pakistan. You'd get the feeling that at this point the US would sell F-16's to North Korea before they'd deal with Pakistan.

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## GriffinsRule

Trailer23 said:


> *- BREAKING NEWS -*​
> US government clears F-16 sale for PAF
> 
> ...& no, its not Pakistan. You'd get the feeling that at this point the US would sell F-16's to North Korea before they'd deal with Pakistan.


Desperately trying to win them over so they can get them on their anti- China bandwagon.


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## Trailer23

GriffinsRule said:


> Desperately trying to win them over so they can get them on their anti- China bandwagon.


_Duterte's_ term is probably coming to end 'cause I recall his rhetoric against the Vipers a few years back when _Trump_ was still in Office.

Source: Philippine president says buying US F-16 jets ‘utterly useless’


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## Sayfullah

araz said:


> As to the JFT, their AESA will require Chinese pwrmission and help.


Is Pakistan working on a indigenous AESA radar? 


araz said:


> indegenous BVR missile in the pipeworks and should be integrated on to JFT.


This is part of project Azm right? I heard it’s a bvr and wvr and sam system


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## Xone

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Is Pakistan working on a indigenous AESA radar?


PAC will make KLJ7A here So It will have all it needs to integrate whatever weapons PAF requires with JF17B3. Even PAC can AMRAAM with it. whence it gets access to its codes.


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## MIRauf

Xone said:


> PAC will make KLJ7A here So It will have all it needs to integrate whatever weapons PAF requires with JF17B3. Even PAC can AMRAAM with it. *whence it gets access to its codes*.


So like, never ? or by that time AIM-120xyz be in same cat. as AIM-7's are today.

PS: There was a rumor on or about PAC Avionics Div. working on home grown AESA solution ( even if it's for AZM Project. )

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## PanzerKiel

MIRauf said:


> PS: There was a rumor on or about PAC Avionics Div. working on home grown AESA solution ( even if it's for AZM Project. )


Its already in its....i must say....veryyyyyy advanced stage.

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## araz

Jf-17 block 3 said:


> Is Pakistan working on a indigenous AESA radar?
> 
> This is part of project Azm right? I heard it’s a bvr and wvr and sam system


As to the first part we are looking at asembling the Chinese AESA radar in house. What happens next remains to be seen. As to the later we currently have no open sourced info of the scope of the project so do not know what is being planned
A


Xone said:


> PAC will make KLJ7A here So It will have all it needs to integrate whatever weapons PAF requires with JF17B3. Even PAC can AMRAAM with it. whence it gets access to its codes.


AMRAAM integration requires source codes of the missiles and the US is unlikely to give you those. If they are generous enough then yes it maybe possible.
A

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## Scorpiooo

FuturePAF said:


> Perhaps it will come back if the PAF requests and provides some funding. The longest range missile (with the best probability of a hit) that can fit on the JF-17 should be a goal. The “PL-21” could yet be that missile. Also would be a psychological answer (for both sides) to the Meteor.


Jf17 having PL21 or something similar (other long range missile) has very less chances , as PLAAF public info integrated PL21 and tested on flankers and may be on J20 but not on J10, so they will be integrated on heavyweight fighters most probably


Jf-17 block 3 said:


> But if we get them for f-16s we won’t need to go for us amraams we can buy Turkish missiles and it’ll be equal to us aim120d. If we get Turkish som for f-16s it’ll give them ability to launch cruise missiles for ground attack and anti ship.
> We’ll be less reliant on usa for our f-16s and can use them to their full potential.
> We should also get those for jf-17. If we can integrate it on f-16s then we’ll have missiles that can work on both f-16s and jf-17s making logistics easier too. If we order enough maybe turks can give us ToT as well


Turkish cant modify anything without American permission


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## Scorpiooo

PanzerKiel said:


> Its already in its....i must say....veryyyyyy advanced stage.


WVR or BVR solution?

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## FuturePAF

Scorpiooo said:


> Jf17 having PL21 or something similar (other long range missile) has very less chances , as PLAAF public info integrated PL21 and tested on flankers and may be on J20 but not on J10, so they will be integrated on heavyweight fighters most probably



The Meteor can fit on the Gripen, why can’t a similarly sized PL-21 fit on the JF-17?


Trailer23 said:


> *- BREAKING NEWS -*​
> US government clears F-16 sale for PAF
> 
> ...& no, its not Pakistan. You'd get the feeling that at this point the US would sell F-16's to North Korea before they'd deal with Pakistan.



Philippines, Poland, even Paraguay and Peru. Heck maybe even the Papua New Guinean Air Force before the Pakistani Air Force

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## Scorpiooo

FuturePAF said:


> The Meteor can fit on the Gripen, why can’t a similarly sized PL-21 fit on the JF-17?


I am not expert at all, but IMO, Girpen have powerful engine then JfT, Secondly Meteor is of similar class of PL 15 and PL 21 wss larger weight and range missile then PL15


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## FuturePAF

Scorpiooo said:


> I am not expert at all, but IMO, Girpen have powerful engine then JfT, Secondly Meteor is of similar class of PL 15 and PL 21 wss larger weight and range missile then PL15



In that case we should work with China to start developing a ducted throttlable version of the PL-15 Missile, in a size similar to the Meteor, in anticipation for a more powerful WS-19 engine in a few years.


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## Scorpiooo

FuturePAF said:


> In that case we should work with China to start developing a ducted throttlable version of the PL-15 Missile, in a size similar to the Meteor, in anticipation for a more powerful WS-19 engine in a few years.


There are already some rumors for existence of PL 17 project that fall between PL 15 and PL 21

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## mingle

Trailer23 said:


> *- BREAKING NEWS -*​
> US government clears F-16 sale for PAF
> 
> ...& no, its not Pakistan. You'd get the feeling that at this point the US would sell F-16's to North Korea before they'd deal with Pakistan.


Thanks my heart broke into 4 pieces two atria & two ventricle
Asi Hon Na hi samjaye

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

$2.43 b for 12 F-16 Block-72. Seriously, what are they loading into these contracts? These DSCA figures have got to be inflated for Congress buy-in -- I can't see how an actual contract could total to $200+ m per F-16 in a 5-year term, or even 10-year term. @SQ8

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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> $2.43 b for 12 F-16 Block-72. Seriously, what are they loading into these contracts? These DSCA figures have got to be inflated for Congress buy-in -- I can't see how an actual contract could total to $200+ m per F-16 in a 5-year term, or even 10-year term. @SQ8


What was the cost of the 8 block 52s which we were being sold with a PDR? I thought it was around 800 million. Phillipines does not have the infrastructure which is probably why it is so expensive. Plus it will include armaments as well. So probably the cost is justifiable. I think knowing Phillipines there may be backhanders involved on both sides as is the case in most deals these days. Additionally are these the first ones with Pratt and Whitney engines? If so are there integration costs as well? 
A

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## Trailer23

mingle said:


> Thanks my heart broke into 4 pieces two atria & two ventricle


Well you better patch up that heart of yours & remove any and all hopes of getting any more F-16's (period).

The problem is every time some meets a US Official - people automatically start assuming that F-16's are coming (new OR used).

COAS, FM Qureshi, Dr. Moeed Yusuf etc. - [people think a secret deal is in place].

Now, because we won't give them the Bases they need, its FATF & also F-16's (surely).

PMIK's point was valid & something that was on every sane person's mind. What exactly were the Americans hoping to achieve from Bases in Pakistan that they couldn't for 2-decades within Afghanistan? Afterall Afghanistan is the size of Texas, New Mexico & possible Oklahoma put together.

Logical Answer: China

Coming back to F-16's that people have stated over & over is that we will keep getting spares for them - no doubt, but don't expect further upgrades - including the 13 we got off RJAF (No. 19 Sqn).

Sure, once there is a change is US Leadership, we can start this F-16 conversation all over again. As long as Biden & Democrats are in power, be happy with what you have.

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> $2.43 b for 12 F-16 Block-72. Seriously, what are they loading into these contracts? These DSCA figures have got to be inflated for Congress buy-in -- I can't see how an actual contract could total to $200+ m per F-16 in a 5-year term, or even 10-year term. @SQ8


Is some advance weapons involved in deal amounts? Or some hidden equipments


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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> Well you better patch up that heart of yours & remove any and all hopes of getting any more F-16's (period).
> 
> The problem is every time some meets a US Official - people automatically start assuming that F-16's are coming (new OR used).
> 
> COAS, FM Qureshi, Dr. Moeed Yusuf etc. - [people think a secret deal is in place].
> 
> Now, because we won't give them the Bases they need, its FATF & also F-16's (surely).
> 
> PMIK's point was valid & something that was on every sane person's mind. What exactly were the Americans hoping to achieve from Bases in Pakistan that they couldn't for 2-decades within Afghanistan? Afterall Afghanistan is the size of Texas, New Mexico & possible Oklahoma put together.
> 
> Logical Answer: China
> 
> Coming back to F-16's that people have stated over & over is that we will keep getting spares for them - no doubt, but don't expect further upgrades - including the 13 we got off RJAF (No. 19 Sqn).
> 
> Sure, once there is a change is US Leadership, we can start this F-16 conversation all over again. As long as Biden & Democrats are in power, be happy with what you have.


You'd have a good career as a politician

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## Akh1112

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> $2.43 b for 12 F-16 Block-72. Seriously, what are they loading into these contracts? These DSCA figures have got to be inflated for Congress buy-in -- I can't see how an actual contract could total to $200+ m per F-16 in a 5-year term, or even 10-year term. @SQ8





the price was inflated by 400m ish for the contract for the PhAF(due to that new move of standardising f16s now), the contract is a very barebones one with 2 amraams per jet etc


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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> $2.43 b for 12 F-16 Block-72. Seriously, what are they loading into these contracts? These DSCA figures have got to be inflated for Congress buy-in -- I can't see how an actual contract could total to $200+ m per F-16 in a 5-year term, or even 10-year term. @SQ8


I think they also roll in other aspects of the entire deal such as facilities and continuous training into that package.

ten (10) F-16C Block 70/72 aircraft; two (2) F-16D Block 70/72 aircraft; fifteen (15) F100-PW-229EEP engines or F110-GE-129D engines; fifteen (15) Improved Programmable Display Generators (iPDG); fifteen (15) AN/APG-83 Advanced Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Scalable Agile Beam Radars (SABR); fifteen (15) Modular Mission Computers 7000AH; fifteen (15) LN-260 Embedded GPS/INS (EGI) with SAASM and PPS; twenty-four (24) Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) AIM-120C-7/C-8 or equivalent; one (1) AIM-120 Guidance Section; forty-eight (48) LAU-129 missile launchers; three (3) KMU-572 Laser Joint Direct Attack Munition (LJDAM) tail kits; six (6) Mk-82 500lb bombs; six (6) Mk-82 500lb Inert training bombs; six (6) FMU-152 or FMU-139 fuzes; six (6) Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods (ATP) or Litening ATP; fifteen (15) Multifunctional Information Display System Joint Tactical Radio System (MIDS-JTRS) aircraft terminals, and; fifteen (15) M61A1 Vulcan Anti-Aircraft 20mm guns. Also included are AN/ARC-238 radios; Advanced Identification Friend or Foe with Combined Interrogator Transponder and Mode 5; Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems II (JHMCS II) or Scorpion Hybrid Optical-based Inertial Tacker (HObIT); Integrated Electronic Warfare Suite; Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program (ECISAP) support; AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Systems (CMDS); Joint Mission Planning Systems (JMPS) or equivalent; AIM-120 CATM; LAU-118 launchers with Advanced Launcher Interface Computer (ALIC); LAU-117 missile launchers; DSU-38 Precision Laser Guided Sensor for LJDAM; Harpoon interface adapter kits; PGU-28 High Explosive Incendiary (HEI) ammunition; PGU-27 ammunition training rounds (non HEI); Cartridge Actuated Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD); ARD-446 impulse cartridges; ARD-863 impulse cartridges; BBU-36/B impulse cartridges; BBU-35/B impulse cartridges; MK-124 smoke flares; MJU-7/B Flare Cartridge L463; BRU‐61 Bomb Racks; BRU‐57 bomb racks; MAU‐12 bomb racks and TER‐9A triple ejection racks; *weapons support, test equipment, and missile containers; chaff and flare; Night Vision Devices (NVD) and support equipment and spares; secure communications; cryptographic equipment; aircraft and personnel support and test equipment; integration and test; weapons, ammunition, pylons, launcher adaptors, weapons interfaces, fuel tanks, and attached hardware; travel pods, precision measurement equipment laboratory, calibration, and simulators; spare and repair parts, repair and return services; maps, publications, and technical documentation; studies and surveys; classified / unclassified software and software support; personnel training and training equipment; facilities and facility management, design and/or construction services; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistical and program support.* The estimated total cost is $2.43 billion.

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## Scorpiooo

Simple one thing they (Phillipines) can afford it , so they are having it , we cant afford so we dont have it.

thats way we should be happy with our old gold f16 and JFT


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## Trailer23

Raider 21 said:


> You'd have a good career as a politician


Everything mentioned above a pretty much straight forward facts. Yeah everyone loves the F-16's - even the ones who want us to get rid of 'em a.s.a.p.

But, we raped the conversation so much out of our F-16's that now this thread is relegated to Pictures & discussion of foreign F-16's.

Any hope that could have been of acquiring F-16's through the Afghanistan Peace Process went down the toilet when the US asked for Bases on our soil. Should've known that they'd find a way to screw us over and keep us hanging.

If there is anything we've picked up from the PMIK's interview with HBO is that Biden (still) has no interest in engaging Pakistan. He has his lackeys' doing all the bidding for him.

F-16's are great & I love 'em, but we should make it more about us (for once) and less about the equipment.

Look at the past. Its either: Congress, Funds, Democrats, DoD, President(s), India...blah blah blah...

Further induction of F-16's is a distant dream...

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## The Raven

FuturePAF said:


> In that case we should work with China to start developing a ducted throttlable version of the PL-15 Missile, in a size similar to the Meteor, in anticipation for a more powerful WS-19 engine in a few years.



The Chinese are favouring multipulse rocket motors over ramjet engines for their long range AAM projects.

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## FuturePAF

The Raven said:


> The Chinese are favouring multipulse rocket motors over ramjet engines for their long range AAM projects.


If it works it’s works, either solution is fine as long as it outperforms the Meteor and can be carried by the JF-17


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## Trailer23

SQ8 said:


> I think they also roll in other aspects of the entire deal such as facilities and continuous training into that package.
> 
> ten (10) F-16C Block 70/72 aircraft; two (2) F-16D Block 70/72 aircraft; fifteen (15) F100-PW-229EEP engines or F110-GE-129D engines; fifteen (15) Improved Programmable Display Generators (iPDG); fifteen (15) AN/APG-83 Advanced Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Scalable Agile Beam Radars (SABR); fifteen (15) Modular Mission Computers 7000AH; fifteen (15) LN-260 Embedded GPS/INS (EGI) with SAASM and PPS; twenty-four (24) Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) AIM-120C-7/C-8 or equivalent; one (1) AIM-120 Guidance Section; forty-eight (48) LAU-129 missile launchers; three (3) KMU-572 Laser Joint Direct Attack Munition (LJDAM) tail kits; six (6) Mk-82 500lb bombs; six (6) Mk-82 500lb Inert training bombs; six (6) FMU-152 or FMU-139 fuzes; six (6) Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods (ATP) or Litening ATP; fifteen (15) Multifunctional Information Display System Joint Tactical Radio System (MIDS-JTRS) aircraft terminals, and; fifteen (15) M61A1 Vulcan Anti-Aircraft 20mm guns. Also included are AN/ARC-238 radios; Advanced Identification Friend or Foe with Combined Interrogator Transponder and Mode 5; Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems II (JHMCS II) or Scorpion Hybrid Optical-based Inertial Tacker (HObIT); Integrated Electronic Warfare Suite; Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program (ECISAP) support; AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Systems (CMDS); Joint Mission Planning Systems (JMPS) or equivalent; AIM-120 CATM; LAU-118 launchers with Advanced Launcher Interface Computer (ALIC); LAU-117 missile launchers; DSU-38 Precision Laser Guided Sensor for LJDAM; Harpoon interface adapter kits; PGU-28 High Explosive Incendiary (HEI) ammunition; PGU-27 ammunition training rounds (non HEI); Cartridge Actuated Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD); ARD-446 impulse cartridges; ARD-863 impulse cartridges; BBU-36/B impulse cartridges; BBU-35/B impulse cartridges; MK-124 smoke flares; MJU-7/B Flare Cartridge L463; BRU‐61 Bomb Racks; BRU‐57 bomb racks; MAU‐12 bomb racks and TER‐9A triple ejection racks; *weapons support, test equipment, and missile containers; chaff and flare; Night Vision Devices (NVD) and support equipment and spares; secure communications; cryptographic equipment; aircraft and personnel support and test equipment; integration and test; weapons, ammunition, pylons, launcher adaptors, weapons interfaces, fuel tanks, and attached hardware; travel pods, precision measurement equipment laboratory, calibration, and simulators; spare and repair parts, repair and return services; maps, publications, and technical documentation; studies and surveys; classified / unclassified software and software support; personnel training and training equipment; facilities and facility management, design and/or construction services; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistical and program support.* The estimated total cost is $2.43 billion.


Add Auto GCAS along that list.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> I think they also roll in other aspects of the entire deal such as facilities and continuous training into that package.
> 
> ten (10) F-16C Block 70/72 aircraft; two (2) F-16D Block 70/72 aircraft; fifteen (15) F100-PW-229EEP engines or F110-GE-129D engines; fifteen (15) Improved Programmable Display Generators (iPDG); fifteen (15) AN/APG-83 Advanced Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Scalable Agile Beam Radars (SABR); fifteen (15) Modular Mission Computers 7000AH; fifteen (15) LN-260 Embedded GPS/INS (EGI) with SAASM and PPS; twenty-four (24) Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) AIM-120C-7/C-8 or equivalent; one (1) AIM-120 Guidance Section; forty-eight (48) LAU-129 missile launchers; three (3) KMU-572 Laser Joint Direct Attack Munition (LJDAM) tail kits; six (6) Mk-82 500lb bombs; six (6) Mk-82 500lb Inert training bombs; six (6) FMU-152 or FMU-139 fuzes; six (6) Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods (ATP) or Litening ATP; fifteen (15) Multifunctional Information Display System Joint Tactical Radio System (MIDS-JTRS) aircraft terminals, and; fifteen (15) M61A1 Vulcan Anti-Aircraft 20mm guns. Also included are AN/ARC-238 radios; Advanced Identification Friend or Foe with Combined Interrogator Transponder and Mode 5; Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems II (JHMCS II) or Scorpion Hybrid Optical-based Inertial Tacker (HObIT); Integrated Electronic Warfare Suite; Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program (ECISAP) support; AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispenser Systems (CMDS); Joint Mission Planning Systems (JMPS) or equivalent; AIM-120 CATM; LAU-118 launchers with Advanced Launcher Interface Computer (ALIC); LAU-117 missile launchers; DSU-38 Precision Laser Guided Sensor for LJDAM; Harpoon interface adapter kits; PGU-28 High Explosive Incendiary (HEI) ammunition; PGU-27 ammunition training rounds (non HEI); Cartridge Actuated Devices/Propellant Actuated Devices (CAD/PAD); ARD-446 impulse cartridges; ARD-863 impulse cartridges; BBU-36/B impulse cartridges; BBU-35/B impulse cartridges; MK-124 smoke flares; MJU-7/B Flare Cartridge L463; BRU‐61 Bomb Racks; BRU‐57 bomb racks; MAU‐12 bomb racks and TER‐9A triple ejection racks; *weapons support, test equipment, and missile containers; chaff and flare; Night Vision Devices (NVD) and support equipment and spares; secure communications; cryptographic equipment; aircraft and personnel support and test equipment; integration and test; weapons, ammunition, pylons, launcher adaptors, weapons interfaces, fuel tanks, and attached hardware; travel pods, precision measurement equipment laboratory, calibration, and simulators; spare and repair parts, repair and return services; maps, publications, and technical documentation; studies and surveys; classified / unclassified software and software support; personnel training and training equipment; facilities and facility management, design and/or construction services; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistical and program support.* The estimated total cost is $2.43 billion.


I guess the GSE is a one time, upfront cost. It'll be interesting to see how the follow-on Block-70/72 contracts shape up. I imagine they'll cost less.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I guess the GSE is a one time, upfront cost. It'll be interesting to see how the follow-on Block-70/72 contracts shape up. I imagine they'll cost less.


They generally do - look at the contracts for SK or UAE as examples. Their last block-60 order with 61 upgrade costs relatively less per unit than the original.

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer

The PAF's Punching Power.

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## Aspen

This F-16 discussion is still going on? 

J-10C is clearly better than F-16. How long will it take for PAF to realize this?

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## Yasser76

Aspen said:


> This F-16 discussion is still going on?
> 
> J-10C is clearly better than F-16. How long will it take for PAF to realize this?




Possibly another 1,000 pages going by the length of this thread....


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## Path-Finder

Will there be a F16 Rebuild factory like the Mirage rebuild factory?

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## Primus

Path-Finder said:


> Will there be a F16 Rebuild factory like the Mirage rebuild factory?


X to doubt

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> The PAF's Punching Power.
> 
> View attachment 758076


I've heard when this particular squadron launches for ADAs, the eastern neighbours fly away. They probably fear this aircraft.

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## Windjammer

Raider 21 said:


> I've heard when this particular squadron launches for ADAs, the eastern neighbours fly away. They probably fear this aircraft.


''Badmash 2020''.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> ''Badmash 2020''.


Make that since 2010.......

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## Windjammer

Raider 21 said:


> Make that since 2010.......


According to a serving PAF AVM, some USAF Commanders have openly acknowledged and congratulated PAF for choosing the brilliant package for their Vipers.

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## Blacklight

Path-Finder said:


> Will there be a F16 Rebuild factory like the Mirage rebuild factory?


Then TAI would be out of business

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> According to a serving PAF AVM, some USAF Commanders have openly acknowledged and congratulated PAF for choosing the brilliant package for their Vipers.


One guy I recall, he was a JF-17 OC most recently but a career Viper driver. Block 52+ is and was the best platform for the War on Terror missions according to him.

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## Akh1112

Raider 21 said:


> One guy I recall, he was a JF-17 OC most recently but a career Viper driver. Block 52+ is and was the best platform for the War on Terror missions according to him.




The F-16 has a massive advantage when it comes to stuff like recce and payload. Especially through the DB-110, you can survey wide areas of land and relay the live feed back to a ground station to then provide to ground/air units. It also has the sensor advantage for now too and potentially the munitions advantage also.

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## PakFactor

Raider 21 said:


> One guy I recall, he was a JF-17 OC most recently but a career Viper driver. Block 52+ is and was the best platform for the War on Terror missions according to him.



That's interesting, I do have a follow up question now.. but thinking how to formulate it. But I'm guessing you probably have a good idea what I'll ask.

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## TsAr

Raider 21 said:


> I've heard when this particular squadron launches for ADAs, the eastern neighbours fly away. They probably fear this aircraft.


Even with the mighty Rafale with cow gobar sakhti


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## ghazi52

"Hot Viper" featured in July 2021

2:27 AM · Jul 1, 2021·

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## ghazi52

"That clearance can wait. Lemmie get yo number first"

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## Windjammer

Another classic image of PAF Viper captured by Awais Lali.

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## Sifar zero

Akh1112 said:


> The F-16 has a massive advantage when it comes to stuff like recce and payload. Especially through the DB-110, you can survey wide areas of land and relay the live feed back to a ground station to then provide to ground/air units. It also has the sensor advantage for now too and potentially the munitions advantage also.


Does the JF 17 or Mirage have a sensor like the DB 110?I once heard that we had a separate Mirage variant for reconnaissance?


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## Incog_nito

Any news/updates on the 34 Iraqi F-16s deal with PAF?





And also the news update on the another 8 F-16 Block-52s we ordered from Lockheed Martin USA:

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## Akh1112

Sifar zero said:


> Does the JF 17 or Mirage have a sensor like the DB 110?I once heard that we had a separate Mirage variant for reconnaissance?




There was a recce mirage ye, however you have to develop the imagery and whatnot.

The DB110 provides real time feed to ground stations and has impressive resolution and range, you can even recce the indians from our side of the border. 

the JF17 does not have such a solution.


Incog_nito said:


> Any news/updates on the 34 Iraqi F-16s deal with PAF?
> 
> View attachment 758911
> 
> And also the news update on the another 8 F-16 Block-52s we ordered from Lockheed Martin USA:
> 
> View attachment 758914





neither of these were a thing

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## Sifar zero

The huge pod at the centreline pylon of this Pakistan Air Force F-16D Block 52 is an advanced UTC DB-110 long-range, compact, day/night, two-axis stabilized, real-time airborne tactical reconnaissance pod directly derived from reconnaissance systems onboard the U2 spyplane.




The pod has been designed for operations at medium and high altitude (10,000- to 80,000-ft) and low subsonic and supersonic speed (0.1 to 1.6 Mach) delivering high resolution infrared and visible bands imagery at extremely long ranges. The DB-110 offers unparalleled,
state-of-the-art ISR capabilities with visible light and infrared electro-optical sensors at a standoff range of 150+ kms. The pod can work at high altitudes in day & night and collects 10,000+ square miles of very high-resolution imagery per hour. Each pod costs $14.4 Million.





Sifar zero said:


> The huge pod at the centreline pylon of this Pakistan Air Force F-16D Block 52 is an advanced UTC DB-110 long-range, compact, day/night, two-axis stabilized, real-time airborne tactical reconnaissance pod directly derived from reconnaissance systems onboard the U2 spyplane.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pod has been designed for operations at medium and high altitude (10,000- to 80,000-ft) and low subsonic and supersonic speed (0.1 to 1.6 Mach) delivering high resolution infrared and visible bands imagery at extremely long ranges. The DB-110 offers unparalleled,
> state-of-the-art ISR capabilities with visible light and infrared electro-optical sensors at a standoff range of 150+ kms. The pod can work at high altitudes in day & night and collects 10,000+ square miles of very high-resolution imagery per hour. Each pod costs $14.4 Million.


Do we have any other pods like the DB 110?

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## Akh1112

Sifar zero said:


> The huge pod at the centreline pylon of this Pakistan Air Force F-16D Block 52 is an advanced UTC DB-110 long-range, compact, day/night, two-axis stabilized, real-time airborne tactical reconnaissance pod directly derived from reconnaissance systems onboard the U2 spyplane.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pod has been designed for operations at medium and high altitude (10,000- to 80,000-ft) and low subsonic and supersonic speed (0.1 to 1.6 Mach) delivering high resolution infrared and visible bands imagery at extremely long ranges. The DB-110 offers unparalleled,
> state-of-the-art ISR capabilities with visible light and infrared electro-optical sensors at a standoff range of 150+ kms. The pod can work at high altitudes in day & night and collects 10,000+ square miles of very high-resolution imagery per hour. Each pod costs $14.4 Million.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do we have any other pods like the DB 110?




No, we do not.


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## Windjammer

Sifar zero said:


> The huge pod at the centreline pylon of this Pakistan Air Force F-16D Block 52 is an advanced UTC DB-110 long-range, compact, day/night, two-axis stabilized, real-time airborne tactical reconnaissance pod directly derived from reconnaissance systems onboard the U2 spyplane.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The pod has been designed for operations at medium and high altitude (10,000- to 80,000-ft) and low subsonic and supersonic speed (0.1 to 1.6 Mach) delivering high resolution infrared and visible bands imagery at extremely long ranges. The DB-110 offers unparalleled,
> state-of-the-art ISR capabilities with visible light and infrared electro-optical sensors at a standoff range of 150+ kms. The pod can work at high altitudes in day & night and collects 10,000+ square miles of very high-resolution imagery per hour. Each pod costs $14.4 Million.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do we have any other pods like the DB 110?


PAF Mirages have been seen with LOROP Pods.


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## Sifar zero

Windjammer said:


> PAF Mirages have been seen with LOROP Pods.
> 
> View attachment 759355


How do they compare with DB 110?


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## GriffinsRule

Sifar zero said:


> How do they compare with DB 110?


Dont compare at all. 1970s tech vs 2000s


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## Sifar zero

GriffinsRule said:


> Dont compare at all. 1970s tech vs 2000s


There was a time when PAF was using Google Maps for reconnaissance. How far have we come.

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## mingle

Sifar zero said:


> There was a time when PAF was using Google Maps for reconnaissance. How far have we come.


Not long ago actually I listened ex Cheif Rao Qamar interview about using Google map

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## Thorough Pro

The way things are going right now, I hope we have enough spares.
That is why I was happy when we did not get the 8 additional and the Zulus. Freedom is a great feeling. 



ghazi52 said:


> "Hot Viper" featured in July 2021
> 
> 2:27 AM · Jul 1, 2021·
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 758501

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## Raja Porus

Can anyone tell the number of IAF bases along with locations, in Kashmir and northern punjab, including FOBs.

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## Raider 21

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Can anyone tell the number of IAF bases along with locations, in Kashmir and northern punjab, including FOBs.


Wrong thread sir


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## Raja Porus

Raider 21 said:


> Wrong thread sir


I asked because it is amongst the most active threads.
Sorry.

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## ghazi52



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## khanasifm

In te res ting 









Philippine president says buying US F-16 jets ‘utterly useless’


Despite President Rodrigo Duterte's antagonism toward Washington, a Philippine security official said the government may buy combat utility helicopters from the U.S.




www.defensenews.com

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## Akh1112

khanasifm said:


> In te res ting
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Philippine president says buying US F-16 jets ‘utterly useless’
> 
> 
> Despite President Rodrigo Duterte's antagonism toward Washington, a Philippine security official said the government may buy combat utility helicopters from the U.S.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.defensenews.com




its because they raised the price by 0.4b. before that it was go ahead.


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## TheTallGuy

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Can anyone tell the number of IAF bases along with locations, in Kashmir and northern punjab, including FOBs.



Airbases remain more the same as 1965 & 1971, FOBs are honestly any place which has a runway long enough..

Now ...you have google map ..dp some recce before drone-ing!

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## jk007

The Raven said:


> This is the key to PAF's success. As I've mentioned in other posts, the PAF have strongly based their doctrine on the USAF model, and the PAF wouldn't be what it is today if it wasn't for US training, aircraft, and cooperation. A similar model was adopted by the Israelis. Leaving aside the love/hate relationship of the politics between the two countries, the airforces, as well as the other services of the two countries, have enjoyed mutually beneficial relationships, especially during the Cold War period. That is why the PAF would never hesitate at the chance of more Vipers, much to the chagrin of many US haters on here. If the PAF had adopted a Soviet or even Chinese airforce doctrine, the results in history would have been quite different. We have seen the results with airforces that have leaned towards the Soviet doctrine (most of the Arab states, india, North Korea, etc).


One sensible post. 

In addition to what you mentioned, aircraft sourced from USSR are always inferior to US weapons (with great exception of few like mig-21). Agree?

PS: happy with your post, as you did repeat usual nonsense that goes along "why IAF pilots are worse that PAF pilots".


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## Raider 21

PakFactor said:


> That's interesting, I do have a follow up question now.. but thinking how to formulate it. But I'm guessing you probably have a good idea what I'll ask.


No I actually do not have a good idea about it sir

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## PakFactor

Raider 21 said:


> No I actually do not have a good idea about it sir



Honestly, me neither the thought never formulated out, so I said forget it. lol.


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## Waterboy

I've read at a specific forum that we are getting around 100 F 16 Block 70 standard which includes new and EDA articles, moreover that zulu have been delivered????? 

I mean what is happening??

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## Nasr

Waterboy said:


> I've read at a specific forum that we are getting around 100 F 16 Block 70 standard which includes new and EDA articles, moreover that zulu have been delivered?????
> 
> I mean what is happening??



Not happening *EVER*!!! 

Capito?


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## SQ8

Waterboy said:


> I've read at a specific forum that we are getting around 100 F 16 Block 70 standard which includes new and EDA articles, moreover that zulu have been delivered?????
> 
> I mean what is happening??


Ive read we are getting 200 J-20s - but general experience tells me that is complete hogwash. As you read through multiple posts you will the difference between hogwash and reality.

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## Ghessan

Waterboy said:


> I've read at a specific forum that we are getting around 100 F 16 Block 70 standard which includes new and EDA articles, moreover that zulu have been delivered?????
> 
> I mean what is happening??



yes and there are many who run between the forums like a 100m sprinter.

even landed what not last year.

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## baqai

TheTallGuy said:


> Now ...you have google map ..dp some recce before drone-ing!



or sending kabootar's


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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer

PAF F-16 ADF before delivery from Jordan.

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## Windjammer

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=352191536367257

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## Rashid Mahmood



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

*ACE of PAF*

*'Ready for some G's'*

The important word here is TRAINING. As the saying goes,"Pulling Gs makes you good at pulling Gs". It has been repeatedly observed that a long layoff from pulling Gs reduces one's ability to tolerate that stress. Frequent exposure to high, sustained Gs probably causes increased reactivity in the cardiovascular system or perhaps frequent exposure begets better straining technique

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## Silicon0000

3 of Sq. of old vipers plus V upgrade for new and existing ............... just kidding 😂😜


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## Scorpiooo

What will remain difference in capabilities of F16 that is New standard Block 70/72 and upgraded to V standard ? Any expert


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## iLION12345_1

Scorpiooo said:


> What will remain difference in capabilities of F16 that is New standard Block 70/72 and upgraded to V standard ? Any expert


Block 70/72 is the F-16V. Block 70/72 has a new AESA radar that previous F-16 blocks dont:

_It features an AN/APG-83 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, a new mission computer and electronic warfare suite, automated ground collision avoidance system, and various cockpit improvements._

The CFTs, spinal EW/ECCM and extra hardpoint were added in block 52+ that PAF operates, the first AESA was added in Block 60. Block 72 has all of these upgrades + a better radar and other internal upgrades as mentioned above.

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> Block 70/72 is the F-16V. Block 70/72 has a new AESA radar that previous F-16 blocks dont:
> 
> _It features an AN/APG-83 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, a new mission computer and electronic warfare suite, automated ground collision avoidance system, and various cockpit improvements._
> 
> The CFTs, spinal EW/ECCM and extra hardpoint were added in block 52+ that PAF operates, the first AESA was added in Block 60. Block 72 has all of these upgrades + a better radar and other internal upgrades as mentioned above.


As general info on net block 70/72 and old jet upgraded to V standard have same capabilities. My question its that in detail is they are equal


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## iLION12345_1

Scorpiooo said:


> As general info on net block 70/72 and old jet upgraded to V standard have same capabilities. My question its that in detail is they are equal


Oh my bad, I didn’t properly understand your question the first time.

It depends, if a country is asking for its F-16s to be upgraded to “Block 70/72 standard” then it’s getting all of the upgrades in the package, there should be no noticeable difference in the two apart from maybe airframe life (which too can be extended with structural upgrade packages)

But usually countries don’t do that, they pick and chose the upgrades they want based on requirements and
cost. For example when Pakistan got its F-16s upgraded it got the Block 52+ Radar, avionics and structural upgrades but didn’t opt for inclusion of CFT, Spinal EW, Extra hardpoint etc, probably due to cost-usefulness ratio.

The more upgrades you want the more you’re paying, upgrading say an F-16 block 15 to block 70/72 will cost quite a bit since they’d basically need to modify the airframe from the ground up, while applying the same upgrade to block 52+ will cost a lot less because there’s little changes to the airframe and mainly only to avionics. 

But to basically answer your question; No, there shouldn’t be any noticeable difference between an older model upgraded to Block 72 and a new block 72.

This makes me wonder wether PAF plans to upgrade its F-16s further someday, as in AESA radars and such, Turkey is making their own and putting them in their F-16s, if the US allows, that would be a very nice upgrade. CFTs and such can be added too, all depends on US permission.

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> Oh my bad, I didn’t properly understand your question the first time.
> 
> It depends, if a country is asking for its F-16s to be upgraded to “Block 70/72 standard” then it’s getting all of the upgrades in the package, there should be no noticeable difference in the two apart from maybe airframe life (which too can be extended with structural upgrade packages)
> 
> But usually countries don’t do that, they pick and chose the upgrades they want based on requirements and
> cost. For example when Pakistan got its F-16s upgraded it got the Block 52+ Radar, avionics and structural upgrades but didn’t opt for inclusion of CFT, Spinal EW, Extra hardpoint etc, probably due to cost-usefulness ratio.
> 
> The more upgrades you want the more you’re paying, upgrading say an F-16 block 15 to block 70/72 will cost quite a bit since they’d basically need to modify the airframe from the ground up, while applying the same upgrade to block 52+ will cost a lot less because there’s little changes to the airframe and mainly only to avionics.
> 
> But to basically answer your question; No, there shouldn’t be any noticeable difference between an older model upgraded to Block 72 and a new block 72.
> 
> This makes me wonder wether PAF plans to upgrade its F-16s further someday, as in AESA radars and such, Turkey is making their own and putting them in their F-16s, if the US allows, that would be a very nice upgrade. CFTs and such can be added too, all depends on US permission.


Thanks sir for detail answers. In short they are almost equal if talk about standard features.

Yes for PAF it can be big boost if American allow TAI to upgrade our f16s in future, but its very unlikely the case by considering T129 deal situation..

PAF will not take risk of sending its existing jets to America keeping factor of stucking them there (Americans are good in it, playing such games)


Best option for PAF is to get EDA and 3rd party jets then try to upgrade to V standard (offcouse if can afford) by utilizing Afghanistan card

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## iLION12345_1

Scorpiooo said:


> Thanks sir for detail answers. In short they are almost equal if talk about standard features.
> 
> Yes for PAF it can be big boost if American allow TAI to upgrade our f16s in future, but its very unlikely the case by considering T129 deal situation..
> 
> PAF will not take risk of sending its existing jets to America keeping factor of stucking them there (Americans are good in it, playing such games)
> 
> 
> Best option for PAF is to get EDA and 3rd party jets then try to upgrade to V standard (offcouse if can afford) by utilizing Afghanistan card


The Americans are certainly not that anti-Pakistan at the moment to do that, people are overestimating that because of recent events, it would be illegal for them to attempt such a thing. Regardless, Pakistan will only ever send them to TAI because it’s cheaper, if they need help from OEM, then LM is committed to take care of PAF F-16s regardless of what US says (apart from total sanctions like on Iran, which are unlikely).

3rd party jets require just as much US permission as new ones. The V standard upgrades would have to be bought from the US first. Getting US to agree to just let Turkey upgrade them with the Turkish radar or whatever US is willing to give/Turkey can make is much easier (Turkey can make most of the stuff for F-16).

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## KaiserX

I wouldnt be surprised if their is a small chance that the PAF acquires 18-36 F16vs as well and upgrades for the existing fleet, but that would really be dependant on how much IK can convince Biden of Pakistans importance.

Dont forget Biden was the key architect of the Military/Economic AID packages to the US during his time in the senate. He is very open and receptive to Pakistan interests. Right now the US is doing an impartial review of ties with Pakistan (Biden himself ordered this impartial view because he felt he would be bias pro-pakistan). I doubt the review being "impartial" would result in the same summary = US realizing it is best to accomadate Pakistan and compete against China to gain leverage rather than isolate Pakistan and give it up to China.

As of late we have seen the US pushing Pakistans interest when it comes to FATF, terrorism in Afghanistan, refugee spillover into Pakistan, denying the use of pakistani bases, etc...

In such situation I am hoping Pakistan puts its interest first and gets benefit from BOTH THE US & CHINA. Dont forget Pakistan served as a bridge for US-China ties which have resulted in the rise of China today. Pakistan can once again become a major mediator for both sides.

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> The Americans are certainly not that anti-Pakistan at the moment to do that, people are overestimating that because of recent events, it would be illegal for them to attempt such a thing. Regardless, Pakistan will only ever send them to TAI because it’s cheaper, if they need help from OEM, then LM is committed to take care of PAF F-16s regardless of what US says (apart from total sanctions like on Iran, which are unlikely).
> 
> 3rd party jets require just as much US permission as new ones. The V standard upgrades would have to be bought from the US first. Getting US to agree to just let Turkey upgrade them with the Turkish radar or whatever US is willing to give/Turkey can make is much easier (Turkey can make most of the stuff for F-16).


If we can afford and able to get Americans permission and kits, TAI can do job very well for us , even we can get 3rd party jets and involve them to upgrade them for us

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## KaiserX

PAF getting J10CE actually puts pressure on the americans and shows them that Pakistan has access to the latest AESA tech and longer range BVRs than even the AIM-120D. The US violating strategic military deals will simply not cut it anymore nor affect Pakistan in any way because Pakistan will be able to get the same tech from China at a cheaper rate.

If anything the US has more incentive now that its gone from Afghanistan to have Pakistan take the lead in managing the security situation in Afghanistan esp when Pakistan is on the front line and is going to be affected a lot more and first before the US homeland. There is a great degree of strategic/security divergence.

In that case it would be favorable for the US to provide the latest F16Vs/upgrade kits and the AH-1Zs that were ordered many years ago. I see right now being a huge opportunity for US/Pakistan strategic ties improving signicantly based upon Pakistan leverage in Afghanistan/China and India's weaknesses.

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## dbc

KaiserX said:


> PAF getting J10CE actually puts pressure on the americans and shows them that Pakistan has access to the latest AESA tech and longer range BVRs than even the AIM-120D. The US violating strategic military deals will simply not cut it anymore nor affect *Pakistan in any way because Pakistan will be able to get the same tech from China at a cheaper rate.*
> 
> If anything the US has more incentive now that its gone from Afghanistan to have Pakistan take the lead in managing the security situation in Afghanistan esp when Pakistan is on the front line and is going to be affected a lot more and first before the US homeland. There is a great degree of strategic/security divergence.
> 
> In that case it would be favorable for the US to provide the latest F16Vs/upgrade kits and the AH-1Zs that were ordered many years ago. I see right now being a huge opportunity for US/Pakistan strategic ties improving signicantly based upon Pakistan leverage in Afghanistan/China and India's weaknesses.



if Chinese platforms are cheaper and on-par with US hardware then procuring US hardware make zero sense - does it? Go Chinese, go J10C, go Z10…

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## iLION12345_1

KaiserX said:


> PAF getting J10CE actually puts pressure on the americans and shows them that Pakistan has access to the latest AESA tech and longer range BVRs than even the AIM-120D. The US violating strategic military deals will simply not cut it anymore nor affect Pakistan in any way because Pakistan will be able to get the same tech from China at a cheaper rate.
> 
> If anything the US has more incentive now that its gone from Afghanistan to have Pakistan take the lead in managing the security situation in Afghanistan esp when Pakistan is on the front line and is going to be affected a lot more and first before the US homeland. There is a great degree of strategic/security divergence.
> 
> In that case it would be favorable for the US to provide the latest F16Vs/upgrade kits and the AH-1Zs that were ordered many years ago. I see right now being a huge opportunity for US/Pakistan strategic ties improving signicantly based upon Pakistan leverage in Afghanistan/China and India's weaknesses.


Pressure on USA? How? They have no obligation or reason to sell anything to Pakistan. Nor do they feel pressured by Pakistan buying weapons from China. PAF would buy F-16V in a heartbeat if it was possible over J-10C, that’s the reality of it. The F-16V is likely more capable than the J-10C anyways, and new American missiles would be much more useful for Pakistan because of their compatibility with older F-16s than Chinese missiles which it already has with J-10.

Sure People want to believe that Pakistan “won” by US’ exit of Afghanistan but let’s not get ahead of ourselves, Pakistan can’t pressure the US to do anything, the new development here, and the actual victory for Pakistan in my book, Is that the US can no longer pressure Pakistan to do anything either.

USA never had any incentive over Pakistan in regards to Afghanistan exit anyways, they weren’t going to get bases Wether they sold F-16 of F-35 because Pakistan has other consequences in mind.

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## akramishaqkhan

There is absolutely no, I repeat no major weapon system purchases from the US on the horizon. None, zilch. Regardless of what people say about a rapprochement, the contrary is the truth. Once US leave Afghanistan, Pakistan will be rolled through mud and dirt. Tough days ahead for Pakistan in the Western hemisphere. There is hardly a silver lining to be found. Get with the reality of life and adjust accordingly.

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## iLION12345_1

akramishaqkhan said:


> There is absolutely no, I repeat no major weapon system purchases from the US on the horizon. None, zilch. Regardless of what people say about a rapprochement, the contrary is the truth. Once US leave Afghanistan, Pakistan will be rolled through mud and dirt. Tough days ahead for Pakistan in the Western hemisphere. There is hardly a silver lining to be found. Get with the reality of life and adjust accordingly.


People love going to two extremes instantly when something happens, you instantly went to the other one. Relations between two countries aren’t defined in terms of weapon purchases, nor are Pakistan-US relations in the gutter, they’ve been far far worst.
There’s no sanctions. PAK-US trade is at its highest in history and US can’t pressure Pakistan to do anything anymore (and vice versa). That’s about it, they’ve been the same for a few years now, not much is changing
Going forward.

Yes there is little chance of major weapons sales from the US to Pakistan, but that’s a consequence of who Pakistan had aligned themselves with historically (China) and who US wants to align themselves with now (india, since they need an ally against China). And honestly nobody can blame the US for trying to work for its national interests even if it means ignoring “alliances”, I wish Pakistan was that ballsy about its national interests (though I’d never justify the US **** up in Afghanistan the same way).
US was never going to be able to play both the Pakistan and the India cards at once due to both the countries opposite relations with China. Pakistan already knew that and moved away from any major US weapons sales on its own once it realized what was happening and a couple of them were blocked I.e AH-1Z and F-16s. The only reason they held out on trying to get F-16s were kind of a “just in case it happens” with the change in government and the exit of Afghanistan, but it didn’t.
And that changes nothing, because that’s how it’s been for quite a few years now, Pakistan will simply move on and consider other options. Pakistan has always been in the position of doing a lot with the little options it has. Even then, one can never tell the future, US has done backflips many times when it’s needed to for its national interests, there’s always a possibility, just little indication for the near Future

This doesn’t put any pressure on Pakistan’s relations with other western countries either, if US was really trying to block sales to pakistan it would be pressuring European countries to stop too, as it has done in the 80s-90s and is doing to other countries. Pakistan is freely buying from Europe and NATO members. The only strained relations are with France, which was the most major supplier of Pakistani arms after US for decades, and I think even those will improve when possible (because that’s what the Pakistani government wants).

Lastly, this gives pakistan an opportunity to work more with Russia, as India tries to get closer to the US because of China, it moves a bit away from Russia, Pakistan can and should fill that gap. This is just how geopolitics change, Pakistan has to play the game too.

In this case the Pakistani military saw ahead and disassociated itself slowly with American equipment before America totally stopped any sales, so our military plans wouldn’t be hurt, so good on them, now let’s see if they can play the future cards better.

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## akramishaqkhan

iLION12345_1 said:


> People love going to two extremes instantly when something happens, you instantly went to the other one. Relations between two countries aren’t defined in terms of weapon purchases, nor are Pakistan-US relations in the gutter, they’ve been far far worst.
> There’s no sanctions. PAK-US trade is at its highest in history and US can’t pressure Pakistan to do anything anymore (and vice versa). That’s about it, they’ve been the same for a few years now, not much is changing
> Going forward.
> 
> Yes there is little chance of major weapons sales from the US to Pakistan, but that’s a consequence of who Pakistan had aligned themselves with historically (China) and who US wants to align themselves with now (india, since they need an ally against China). And honestly nobody can blame the US for trying to work for its national interests even if it means ignoring “alliances”, I wish Pakistan was that ballsy about its national interests (though I’d never justify the US **** up in Afghanistan the same way).
> US was never going to be able to play both the Pakistan and the India cards at once due to both the countries opposite relations with China. Pakistan already knew that and moved away from any major US weapons sales on its own once it realized what was happening and a couple of them were blocked I.e AH-1Z and F-16s. The only reason they held out on trying to get F-16s were kind of a “just in case it happens” with the change in government and the exit of Afghanistan, but it didn’t.
> And that changes nothing, because that’s how it’s been for quite a few years now, Pakistan will simply move on and consider other options. Pakistan has always been in the position of doing a lot with the little options it has. Even then, one can never tell the future, US has done backflips many times when it’s needed to for its national interests, there’s always a possibility, just little indication for the near Future
> 
> This doesn’t put any pressure on Pakistan’s relations with other western countries either, if US was really trying to block sales to pakistan it would be pressuring European countries to stop too, as it has done in the 80s-90s and is doing to other countries. Pakistan is freely buying from Europe and NATO members. The only strained relations are with France, which was the most major supplier of Pakistani arms after US for decades, and I think even those will improve when possible (because that’s what the Pakistani government wants).
> 
> Lastly, this gives pakistan an opportunity to work more with Russia, as India tries to get closer to the US because of China, it moves a bit away from Russia, Pakistan can and should fill that gap. This is just how geopolitics change, Pakistan has to play the game too.
> 
> In this case the Pakistani military saw ahead and disassociated itself slowly with American equipment before America totally stopped any sales, so our military plans wouldn’t be hurt, so good on them, now let’s see if they can play the future cards better.


In principle I agree with what you have written with a few areas of divergence.
1) US is actively slowing or opposing weapons sales to Pakistan from European countries. European countries themselves are not too keen, but the Turkish engine fiasco is a perfect example on how the US is impacting our procurement from others.
2) Alignment with India is more significant than people think. It is very deep and getting deeper. India operates with a zero sum mindset regarding Pakistan. This means US/Pak relations are not likely to normalize. There are too many deep seeded groups within the US who are opposed to this normalization. They'll play spoilers.

My point in my post was not the argue the merits or demerits of US/PK relations. The only observation I was making, with a level of definitiveness is that Pak is not going to buy any major weapon system from the West. Those days are gone. The lines are being drawn and PK is in a different camp now.

The fact that there isn't a complete rupture is similar to why there isn't a complete trading rupture with US/China. These things take time to unravel. But the unraveling has begun.

Lastly I agree weapon sales is not the only barometer to measure relationships between countries. However, given the limited nature of PK/US alignment, weapon sales is a good litmus test, and has been throughout our history with the US. Whenever we have seen a waning of relationships, it is the military relationship that sours. The rest just follows.

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## iLION12345_1

akramishaqkhan said:


> In principle I agree with what you have written with a few areas of divergence.
> 1) US is actively slowing or opposing weapons sales to Pakistan from European countries. European countries themselves are not too keen, but the Turkish engine fiasco is a perfect example on how the US is impacting our procurement from others.
> 2) Alignment with India is more significant than people think. It is very deep and getting deeper. India operates with a zero sum mindset regarding Pakistan. This means US/Pak relations are not likely to normalize. There are too many deep seeded groups within the US who are opposed to this normalization. They'll play spoilers.
> 
> My point in my post was not the argue the merits or demerits of US/PK relations. The only observation I was making, with a level of definitiveness is that Pak is not going to buy any major weapon system from the West. Those days are gone. The lines are being drawn and PK is in a different camp now.
> 
> The fact that there isn't a complete rupture is similar to why there isn't a complete trading rupture with US/China. These things take time to unravel. But the unraveling has begun.
> 
> Lastly I agree weapon sales is not the only barometer to measure relationships between countries. However, given the limited nature of PK/US alignment, weapon sales is a good litmus test, and has been throughout our history with the US. Whenever we have seen a waning of relationships, it is the military relationship that sours. The rest just follows.


I’ve not noticed any US action against European or Turkish sales to Pakistan except where it involves American tech.

Italian weapon sales to Pakistan have not slowed down, they’ve only picked up, that’s the biggest European supplier of arms to Pakistan right now, and many of their systems being Co-developed with Germany and Britain require their approval too, neither have denied Pakistan from getting anything it has requested so far.

In fact I sincerely hope Pakistan starts buying and working more with Germany and UK. They are not opposed to defense deals with Pakistan at all, it’s just that Pakistan has recently preferred Italy for most of its defense needs in the region.

Eastern European countries (Serbia, Czechia, Ukraine etc) are still very keen on doing business, they make fewer things, but their artillery and APCs are being tested in Pakistan as we speak, they tend to take any sales they can get.

US exerted no pressure on Pakistan’s historical biggest arms supplier in Europe (France), the relations soured for other reasons, ones which you know, and I believe they will improve again, maybe after Macron is gone.

Turkey, due to erdogan, is having its own issues with US and Pakistan gets thrown into the mix there, the engines aren’t really a good example at all because they’re American engines. Not Turkish ones. most of the tech in Europe has no US parts, hence there isn’t much US can do to stop said sales except exert pressure, which I don’t see why it would want to do that, it would just piss the Europeans off by stopping them from getting sales.
Unless we try to mess with them like Erdogan is doing or go against their interests, they will only block American tech and not much else, which again, they have been doing for a few years now.

Pakistan itself has generally moved away from buying European tech (as compared to how it did up until the 90s and then for a while in the 2000s) as it has found better partners in China, back then China couldn’t make most of that stuff. And now there is also Turkey. Pakistan has also indigenized some of its defense needs, however I don’t think the Pakistani forces expected to lose America as a supplier so soon back in the 2000s and some of their future planning did get ruined by that.

I also don’t think the past is a good way to judge how things will happen this time due to how different the situation is globally, Pakistan has no need to mess with the US and vice versa, and with the US leaving Afghanistan anything Pakistan does in regards to Afghanistan won’t effect US anymore either.
nor will Pakistan try to get involved in any US/India action against China (and China fully understands that), so I don’t see how relations will get much worst than they already are.
US does not equal the west, Pakistan will still be buying whatever it can and wants from Europe and the few things it buys from South America (missiles). Other than that the forces have moved away from American tech over the last few years on their own, as I mentioned, so going forward we won’t notice much change, just more affirmation that American weapon sales to Pakistan aren’t happening anymore, but we already knew that.

I don’t see the PAK/US relationship normalizing either and I already said that, because US/India need each other too much and their relations will only improve. But it’s an opportunity for Pakistan to work with Russia and even more with China. So we trade one thing for another. But the bottom line is, I agree, Pakistanis need to stop holding their breath for any US weapon sales to Pakistan in the near future, unless there’s a major policy change or some internal dealings we don’t know about, both unlikely scenarios.

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## Tameem

dbc said:


> if Chinese platforms are cheaper and on-par with US hardware then procuring US hardware make zero sense - does it? Go Chinese, go J10C, go Z10…



F16V may be more effective than J10C and since PAF already operating its older cousin, F16V brings more and rapid synchronization than any other platforms if opted by PAF but that's not all dear death by chocolate.

PAF fully considers and committed its future in indigenization, self reliance, operational independence, wider availability of weapons, larger thrust engine, radar, AA missile with MRO, R&D involvement, TOT and more appropriately towards Project AZM and here off the shelf F16V is miserably fails.

Going for J10C is not just technical but strategic, going out from US Political, diplomatic, economical (IMF, FATF, WB etc) umbrella is not yet fully thought out in Pakistani state. US despite depleting rapidly still holds more international clout than China. Pakistan yet fully acknowledge and understands US treachery and backstabbing over the years still want to hold her indifferent towards him at least not fully antagonize like US has its relations with Iran or NK and that is why Pakistan still want to remains opens a window of relationship to sought out CSF funds, assistance in any fallout in Afghanistan and economic, diplomatic help in UN, IMF, FATF, WB, indoPak War etc. etc. etc. J10C or its accessories will eventually comes in PAF one way or other but not with a bigbang but silently.

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## crankthatskunk

dbc said:


> if Chinese platforms are cheaper and on-par with US hardware then procuring US hardware make zero sense - does it? Go Chinese, go J10C, go Z10…



It has to be. But if Americans throw away some F 16 Vs or upgrade kits for free. Do not say no.


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## Reichmarshal

We all need to under stand that the u.s has sub let its foreign policy to its regional partners.
In the middle east its framed with imput by isreal n similarly in South East Asia its framed with imput from India. the cornerstone of this frame work is that the regional partners interests are held Supreme over all else.
Until the u.s forces were in afg n as all the u.s comm lines passed through Pakistan, the u.s was in more than a few ways was " beholden" to Pakistan. But now with the u.s gone all bets are off.
But their is a spin to the above, when Pakistan forced the taliban to sit across the table with the u.s and the Afghan govt. and helped in the peaceful withdrawal of coalition forces, they for the first time in a very long time did it all "not for free".
I am guessing that one of the conditions for all of the above was that the u.s would allow Pakistan to buy military hardware from the csf owed to us by the u.s.

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> Pressure on USA? How? They have no obligation or reason to sell anything to Pakistan. Nor do they feel pressured by Pakistan buying weapons from China. PAF would buy F-16V in a heartbeat if it was possible over J-10C, that’s the reality of it. The F-16V is likely more capable than the J-10C anyways, and new American missiles would be much more useful for Pakistan because of their compatibility with older F-16s than Chinese missiles which it already has with J-10.
> 
> Sure People want to believe that Pakistan “won” by US’ exit of Afghanistan but let’s not get ahead of ourselves, Pakistan can’t pressure the US to do anything, the new development here, and the actual victory for Pakistan in my book, Is that the US can no longer pressure Pakistan to do anything either.
> 
> USA never had any incentive over Pakistan in regards to Afghanistan exit anyways, they weren’t going to get bases Wether they sold F-16 of F-35 because Pakistan has other consequences in mind.


Very well explained, Pakistan just try to get subsidized F16 or kits if Americans want to considering there role in post Afghan situation


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## Mig hunter

There are no Vipers coming and neither current one going to be upgraded.. Fingers crossed.. J 10 C is here.. The news will be broken officially soon..

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## TheTallGuy

Mig hunter said:


> There are no Vipers coming and neither current one going to be upgraded.. Fingers crossed.. J 10 C is here.. The news will be broken officially soon..



Insha Allah by end of 2021? 30+ ??

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## ziaulislam

iLION12345_1 said:


> Pressure on USA? How? They have no obligation or reason to sell anything to Pakistan. Nor do they feel pressured by Pakistan buying weapons from China. PAF would buy F-16V in a heartbeat if it was possible over J-10C, that’s the reality of it. The F-16V is likely more capable than the J-10C anyways, and new American missiles would be much more useful for Pakistan because of their compatibility with older F-16s than Chinese missiles which it already has with J-10.
> 
> Sure People want to believe that Pakistan “won” by US’ exit of Afghanistan but let’s not get ahead of ourselves, Pakistan can’t pressure the US to do anything, the new development here, and the actual victory for Pakistan in my book, Is that the US can no longer pressure Pakistan to do anything either.
> 
> USA never had any incentive over Pakistan in regards to Afghanistan exit anyways, they weren’t going to get bases Wether they sold F-16 of F-35 because Pakistan has other consequences in mind.


Pakistan doesnt need f16s
This isnt 1990s when thr only thing china could offer were mig19/f6
And you are wrong that we will buy it in a heart beat PAF walked away from b52 in 2012 when obama offered it


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## The Terminator

mingle said:


> Second line means someone put money down beacuse creating infrastructure for 2nd line will cost LM money and resources let's see I don't see any country new beacuse Indonesia is getting Rafale they are very close to agreement Africa Asia I don't see EU all moving to F35 including Poland
> There are requests under review from partner nations according to article sounds interesting


Well then they would bomb the hell out of a few potential clients and then shove down their throught the democracy along with some shiny M1 Abrams and F-16s too. 

Or perhaps would make Saudis scare from Kuwaitis, as they did with Qataris and sell the US military industrial complex products to the both sides of the Arabs


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## iLION12345_1

ziaulislam said:


> Pakistan doesnt need f16s
> This isnt 1990s when thr only thing china could offer were mig19/f6
> And you are wrong that we will buy it in a heart beat PAF walked away from b52 in 2012 when obama offered it


PAF would, without a single doubt, instantly agree to buy Any F-16s it could. Because it makes a lot of logical sense to do that, they would be stupid to pass them up. 
BUT, not if the conditions were so bad that they weren’t worth buying, PAF didn’t _walk away_ from those Block 52+, it tried its hardest to get them, but the financing conditions weren’t to PAFs liking because US wanted Pakistan to pay in full. And add on top of that the stringent use conditions they were trying to put on those F-16s.

Right now PAF has more funds, if F-16s were on the cards without those stringent use conditions, PAF would surely take them, Wether it was 8 F-16s or 80. But J-10C would come anyways because PAF knows any F-16 sale would be small, but now there is no sale. So it doesn’t change much.

Sure PAF doesn’t inherently need F-16s anymore, but people have to realize PAF doesn’t have just so many open options that not getting more F-16s isn’t a drawback. It’s a major major drawback, because PAF has extremely limited realistic options. J-10C is currently the only single one.

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## The Terminator

Yasser76 said:


> Wrath of Afghans!? You think that is what decides Pak policy? Pak Mil can keep a lot secret from the nation when it wants to. Anyway, I bow to your insider knowledge


Afghan Taliban to be precise. Don't forget that world's mightiest military machine with virtually endless resources at their disposal surrendered before them recently. If Pakistani soil is used against them then how would we be able to defend ourselves against ever increasing threats and already overstretched military budget.


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## PakFactor

The Terminator said:


> Afghan Taliban to be precise. Don't forget that world's mightiest military machine with virtually endless resources at their disposal surrendered before them recently. If Pakistani soil is used against them then how would we be able to defend ourselves against ever increasing threats and already overstretched military budget.



I wouldn’t say surrender but more of a tactical pull back to counter China more than anything.

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## The Terminator

Yasser76 said:


> Everyone here is quick to criticise but not so good at providing alternatives.
> 
> What if Pakistan refuses? What then? Are people aware of the amount of shit that can befall us?
> 
> Forget spares for F-16s or any new missiles for them
> 
> Expect pressure on European suppliers like Germany and Italy to stop supplying us
> 
> Expect a ton of shit from IMF/WB/FATF
> 
> Expect a possible state sponsor of terrorism designation
> 
> Expect India to jump and host US Forces.
> 
> 
> But sure. instead of thinking about these things lets just carry on and make stupid prostitution analogies....


We just did refuse. Lol

Now what happened? Sometimes it's better not to sell your soul for pathetic materialistic gains. Us has nothing significant to offer us anymore. Either sit in US lap against China, another rising global power next door or refuse US politely which is thousands miles away quickly loosing its influence, grip, hegemony or any kind of leverage globally


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## The Terminator

PakFactor said:


> I wouldn’t say surrender but more of a tactical pull back to counter China more than anything.


Yeah but after loosing trillions of $, a few thousand soldiers, their repute of invincibility is blown up, loosing the status of one and only mightiest super power in the world. The world is quickly switching towards multipolar again and the cold War 2.0 officially already ensued. 2001 and 2021 there is a marked difference in global positioning.

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## The Eagle

Back to topic please

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## The Terminator

Aamir Hussain said:


> If we want release of F-16, access to retired/stored airframes or third country stock we will need to offer some kind of carrot to the US. These days, reportedly, US is looking for air bases close to Afghanistan to launch drone missions if need be.
> 
> Now if we do agree to it, than the questions is what would we ask in return and how to package the acceptance, domestically and what would be the blow back from across the border.
> 
> Not doing so would result in what kind of fall out an from whom?
> 
> The advantages are obvious, if negotiated from a position of strength, release of withheld CSF, release of F-16's, & AH 1Z's, License to export double the number of LHTEC T800-4A engines (On Frame and spare engines) Third country transfer of F-16's and access to EDA land weapons and air crafts (Difficult to negotiate the latest version of AMRAAM) This is the obvious windfall. How much the US agree to all this depends upon how hungry they are and how much pressure India can bear upon them to not to do so.
> 
> The blow back will in the shape of political point scoring by the usual suspects, religious right will make a hue and cry with obvious political tint, and likely hood of Af Talibs facilitating Pak Taliban for cross border raids into Pakistan. To some extent, the last point can be managed. Financial squeeze and FATF censure will be a factor played in game.
> 
> What if we don't give access. US will then use overflights to target AF Talibans ( we will indirectly be giving them access in way) and might face the same blow back as described in the previous paragraph. US might then promote a more active role to be played by India in Afghanistan if they don't get basing rights in Pakistan.
> 
> In all this, what would be the reaction of China? How will they view the use of an airbase by US?
> 
> The permutation and combinations are endless and there is no simple answer to all of this. In the end Pakistan has to weigh its decisions keeping in view its short term and log term goals in the region. But above all see the benefits of a uni polar or a bipolar approach to its regional strategy.


What kind of carrot do we possess would entice US to be friends with us again? Nothing short of betrayal against China would work. Bases against Afghanistan isn't worth that much. India has already offered a bigger carrot to them and joined the US-led quad. And you know India and Pakistan can never Co exist in a same block or group. And simply we can't out-carrot India here anyways. 

You may deny it but the fact is economically and militarily Pakistan's future is tied with China. They have invested a lot and in turn bought a lot of influence over us. 

A few dozen F-16s are not really worth it to loose a tried and tested ally like China. They are a hell lot more dependable than deceptive, rude US. See what happened with Turkey when it required to bolster its military even being a vital NATO member. So anymore F-16s would be more of a liability in the long term upon our already weak economic position. And yes J-10C would be the logical choice. 

Yes F-16 is without a doubt great fighting machine but circumstances dictates otherwise for us. 

We all love Hollywood, Western freedom, western chicks, their language, their technology and progress but I am afraid our bureaucratic and top military brass would have to find some alternative venues to spend their holidays or their retirement plans. Something more Asian or Eastern 
So brush up your Russian and Chinese language skills too.


PakFactor said:


> Pretty much how it'll be train and come with it.
> 
> I envision PAF being more streamlined, with Western Platform F-16 + Mirages & Eastern Platform J-10 + JF-17 Combo. In my view and from some I've spoken to said PAF access to Western Fighters will be down to 0. If we get F-16s its one thing but don't expect more than this, when our F-16 have reached their life span.
> 
> According to one PAF Officer who's a distant relative said, "Western priorities have changed, we will be approaching the end of the run way with them". Note: In terms of advanced fighter platforms.


Exactly 
Mirage, F-16s, JF-17s and J-10C would be the perfect combination. 

Maybe replace Mirages with J-10s later down the road

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## The Terminator

araz said:


> We cannot integrate anything on our F16s due to end user agreements. As to the JFT, their AESA will require Chinese permission and help. There will be other complexities as the Turkish might not allow the Chinese access to their source codes. If this was so easy believe me we would have integrated Amraams on JFT. Lastly we appear to be having an indegenous BVR missile in the pipeworks and should be integrated on to JFT. Ithink this would be a more worthwhile project than just buying from Turkey.
> As to SOM missile I feel we have a longer ranged RAAD 2 which will be integrated on JFT. When there are local programmes we do not go and buy from outside.
> My thoughts on the matter.
> A


I have heard in interviews senior PAF officials claiming that JF-17 is capable of firing AMRAAM missiles too!


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## The Terminator

Can somebody tell here that How much did F-16 block 52+ costed us back then? Their flyaway cost?


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## The Terminator

KaiserX said:


> I wouldnt be surprised if their is a small chance that the PAF acquires 18-36 F16vs as well and upgrades for the existing fleet, but that would really be dependant on how much IK can convince Biden of Pakistans importance.
> 
> Dont forget Biden was the key architect of the Military/Economic AID packages to the US during his time in the senate. He is very open and receptive to Pakistan interests. Right now the US is doing an impartial review of ties with Pakistan (Biden himself ordered this impartial view because he felt he would be bias pro-pakistan). I doubt the review being "impartial" would result in the same summary = US realizing it is best to accomadate Pakistan and compete against China to gain leverage rather than isolate Pakistan and give it up to China.
> 
> As of late we have seen the US pushing Pakistans interest when it comes to FATF, terrorism in Afghanistan, refugee spillover into Pakistan, denying the use of pakistani bases, etc...
> 
> In such situation I am hoping Pakistan puts its interest first and gets benefit from BOTH THE US & CHINA. Dont forget Pakistan served as a bridge for US-China ties which have resulted in the rise of China today. Pakistan can once again become a major mediator for both sides.


IK has never been good at negotiations. You need someone of Zardari's calibre to pull this off . Anyways 36 F-16Vs with all the latest bells and whistles would be a great boast in our force and capabilities which we may just dream of for now.

If Biden is that much sympathetic to Pakistan, he should have get our stuck AH-1Zs released at least.


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## araz

The Terminator said:


> I have heard in interviews senior PAF officials claiming that JF-17 is capable of firing AMRAAM missiles too!


This is not official so do not know. I would not believe everything that is being said and safety is in denial.



The Terminator said:


> Can somebody tell here that How much did F-16 block 52+ costed us back then? Their flyaway cost?


Tbe whole deal was 3.6 billion dollars with armaments. I am not certain whether it included the upgrade kits or not. Upgrade kits were 20 million a pop, and araments were 600 million if I remember. 
A

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## araz

The Terminator said:


> IK has never been good at negotiations. You need someone of Zardari's calibre to pull this off . Anyways 36 F-16Vs with all the latest bells and whistles would be a great boast in our force and capabilities which we may just dream of for now.
> 
> If Biden is that much sympathetic to Pakistan, he should have get our stuck AH-1Zs released at least.



It is not Zardari or Imran who negotiates these contracts. The relevant procurement team does so from PAF/Army. It is not a case for good /bad negotiations but an assessment of what is in our benefit and what pressure will be borne on us and can we resist it. China was not so strong in 2000s so we buckled under ( I still maintain we did so very easily and could have negotiated harder). However China backs us now for very tangible personal gains and Imran Khan is much better at resisting pressures than Musharraf was and the politico military partnership means a negotiated standpoint rather than one man show which is much better.
Biden or anyone else will not want to get us any relief till we give them 10 times back in return. This is the nature of the transactional relationship which US maintains with all of its allies. We are no exception. Even Israel is being pampered for a reason. We have just not understood the nature of this relationship and exploited it. The only time we did so was when Zia was in power and so he had to be done away with. One needs to ask the question of "What's in it for me and my country for every US demand and negotiate keeping that view in mind". None of the political leaders so far have been able to do so because of their personal gains for which they are blackmailed as well as come into power and allowed to loot even more and get secure heavens in the world to escape to.
A

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## PakFactor

The Terminator said:


> Yeah but after loosing trillions of $, a few thousand soldiers, their repute of invincibility is blown up, loosing the status of one and only mightiest super power in the world. The world is quickly switching towards multipolar again and the cold War 2.0 officially already ensued. 2001 and 2021 there is a marked difference in global positioning.



True that. Global positioning is switching to multi polar as it should be.


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## Windjammer



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## The Raven

Given the fiasco in Afghanistan, the chances of new Vipers entering the PAF are quickly evaporating. The choice was between having a pro-Pakistan Afghanistan under the rule of the Taliban (unacceptable to the US) at the cost of any more US equipment, or the potential of more Vipers, but with the current Afghan regime remaining in power, and the potential of the likes of india and Iran gaining influence on our Western border. The Pak military chose the former option. The only realistic chance is perhaps used examples from other users, but that's a very slim chance as well. It's increasingly likely the PAF's current Viper fleet will remain as it is until it is decommissioned. Hence why the increasing likelihood of the J-10CE entering.

Remember, back in the mid-2000s under Mushy, the PAF explicitly expressed strong likelihood of J-10, but then the Americans dangled the Viper carrot and that idea soon evaporated. With the chances of any more Vipers now evaporating, the J-10 is back in play again. All this speculation of any other alternative "western" platform is BS by some people on this forum to stoke their egos and drive the gullible folk crazy. The "new fighter for PAF thread" is a sad reflection and microcosm of Pakistani society and politics.

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## ziaulislam

iLION12345_1 said:


> PAF would, without a single doubt, instantly agree to buy Any F-16s it could. Because it makes a lot of logical sense to do that, they would be stupid to pass them up.
> BUT, not if the conditions were so bad that they weren’t worth buying, PAF didn’t _walk away_ from those Block 52+, it tried its hardest to get them, but the financing conditions weren’t to PAFs liking because US wanted Pakistan to pay in full. And add on top of that the stringent use conditions they were trying to put on those F-16s.
> 
> Right now PAF has more funds, if F-16s were on the cards without those stringent use conditions, PAF would surely take them, Wether it was 8 F-16s or 80. But J-10C would come anyways because PAF knows any F-16 sale would be small, but now there is no sale. So it doesn’t change much.
> 
> Sure PAF doesn’t inherently need F-16s anymore, but people have to realize PAF doesn’t have just so many open options that not getting more F-16s isn’t a drawback. It’s a major major drawback, because PAF has extremely limited realistic options. J-10C is currently the only single one.


So basically PAF wanted USA to foot the bill
Pakistan were told to pay full
We would have literally jumped with joy if we were told to pay full for f16 in 1990-2010

But time has changee back then china only had j6/7 to offer

Now we have jf17/j10

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## Aamir Hussain

The Terminator said:


> What kind of carrot do we possess would entice US to be friends with us again? Nothing short of betrayal against China would work. Bases against Afghanistan isn't worth that much. India has already offered a bigger carrot to them and joined the US-led quad. And you know India and Pakistan can never Co exist in a same block or group. And simply we can't out-carrot India here anyways.
> 
> You may deny it but the fact is economically and militarily Pakistan's future is tied with China. They have invested a lot and in turn bought a lot of influence over us.
> 
> A few dozen F-16s are not really worth it to loose a tried and tested ally like China. They are a hell lot more dependable than deceptive, rude US. See what happened with Turkey when it required to bolster its military even being a vital NATO member. So anymore F-16s would be more of a liability in the long term upon our already weak economic position. And yes J-10C would be the logical choice.
> 
> Yes F-16 is without a doubt great fighting machine but circumstances dictates otherwise for us.
> 
> We all love Hollywood, Western freedom, western chicks, their language, their technology and progress but I am afraid our bureaucratic and top military brass would have to find some alternative venues to spend their holidays or their retirement plans. Something more Asian or Eastern
> So brush up your Russian and Chinese language skills too.
> 
> Exactly
> Mirage, F-16s, JF-17s and J-10C would be the perfect combination.
> 
> Maybe replace Mirages with J-10s later down the road



If we think relations with China will not have its own consequences, then I am afraid we are living in a fools paradise as we have always been when we were the darling of the west.

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## Blacklight

The Terminator said:


> I have heard in interviews senior PAF officials claiming that JF-17 is capable of firing AMRAAM missiles too!


Can you provide a link to those statements?

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## Blacklight

The Terminator said:


> Can somebody tell here that How much did F-16 block 52+ costed us back then? Their flyaway cost?








The Government of Pakistan – F-16 Block 52 Aircraft | Defense Security Cooperation Agency







www.dsca.mil






Aamir Hussain said:


> If we think relations with China will not have its own consequences, then I am afraid we are living in a fools paradise as we have always been when we were the darling of the west.



This is PDF, pls break it down into simple English, like:

When strangers give you candies, be careful......

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## Thorough Pro

Not sure about the Block 70 but Zulu news was correct. @Zarvan
One thing that specific forum forgot to mention was that Zulus were super stealthy.
They landed in Pakistan about a year ago and since then no one has seen them, even PA is trying to relocate them but has failed so far due to their super stealthy features.




Waterboy said:


> I've read at a specific forum that we are getting around 100 F 16 Block 70 standard which includes new and EDA articles, moreover that zulu have been delivered?????
> 
> I mean what is happening??

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## The Terminator

Aamir Hussain said:


> If we think relations with China will not have its own consequences, then I am afraid we are living in a fools paradise as we have always been when we were the darling of the west.


Absolutely true. But for now we are tied with China and can't do much about it.

Except diversifying the investment in CPEC through various other friendly countries. 

IMHO, we would be offered F-16 upgrades after the induction of JF-17 block 3 and probably J-10C in near future. Because both of them would come with AESA radar and updated avionics and EW suites


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## The Terminator

Blacklight said:


> Can you provide a link to those statements?


Sorry I don't have link available now. Perhaps it was an interview series of Air Marshal Rtd. Shahid Lateef with abid Andleeb on youtube. And heard some contradictory, confusing statements after February 2019 air skirmish. It's a bit hard to recall now exactly. 

I don't have any link available now. If in future I might find those conversations again then would definitely share with you.

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## Windjammer



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## Blacklight

The Terminator said:


> I have heard in interviews senior PAF officials claiming that JF-17 is capable of firing AMRAAM missiles too!





The Terminator said:


> Sorry I don't have link available now. Perhaps it was an interview series of Air Marshal Rtd. Shahid Lateef with abid Andleeb on youtube. And heard some contradictory, confusing statements after February 2019 air skirmish. It's a bit hard to recall now exactly.
> 
> I don't have any link available now. If in future I might find those conversations again then would definitely share with you.



@Raider 21 @SQ8 @The Eagle Just my personal opinion, that JFT cannot fire American AAM. Am I wrong?

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## TsAr

Blacklight said:


> @Raider 21 @SQ8 @The Eagle Just my personal opinion, that JFT cannot fire American AAM. Am I wrong?


You are correct....

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## Metal 0-1

The Terminator said:


> I have heard in interviews senior PAF officials claiming that JF-17 is capable of firing AMRAAM missiles too!


Not possible and not going happen.

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## Basel

The Raven said:


> The Chinese are favouring multipulse rocket motors over ramjet engines for their long range AAM projects.



Why they are doing it kindly share details.


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## Raja Porus

The first batch of falcons...

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## mingle

Blacklight said:


> @Raider 21 @SQ8 @The Eagle Just my personal opinion, that JFT cannot fire American AAM. Am I wrong?


We need US permission before mating?

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## Blacklight

mingle said:


> We need US permission before mating?


Yes

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## SQ8

Blacklight said:


> @Raider 21 @SQ8 @The Eagle Just my personal opinion, that JFT cannot fire American AAM. Am I wrong?


Absolutely not - the interface may exist but there are source codes required which are likely(99.98%) not to be released to Pakistan for integration with the Chinese Radar and the FCS.

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## The Raven

Basel said:


> Why they are doing it kindly share details.



Better kinematic performance at higher altitude and a more compact airframe that can fit more missiles in the internal weapon bays of fifth gen fighters - ramjet powered missiles need intake ducting, which makes them relatively bulky airframes.

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## PurpleButcher

mingle said:


> We need US permission before mating?


I don't need US permission before "mating"

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## Raider 21

SQ8 said:


> Absolutely not - the interface may exist but there are source codes required which are likely(99.98%) not to be released to Pakistan for integration with the Chinese Radar and the FCS.


And if the avionics standard is not the same MILSTD, it most likely will not support the employment of the missiles.

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## The Raven

Raider 21 said:


> And if the avionics standard is not the same MILSTD, it most likely will not support the employment of the missiles.



As far as I know the JF-17 uses MIL-STD-1760/1553 bus architecture, so technically it's possible, but the issue is one of end user agreements and seeking the relevant authorisation. The PAF have integrated AIM-9 on Chinese fighters before without the benefit of using an industry standard bus. In any case, there's limited tactical benefit of integrating the AMRAAM/AIM-9 on the JF-17, as we only have enough to equip our Viper fleet, and the equivalent SD-10/PL-5 have similar performance, as well as moving on to PL-15/PL-10.

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## Iceman2

PurpleButcher said:


> I don't need US permission before "mating"


I hope your not mating with C5s 😁😁😁

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## ghazi52

No hour of life is wasted that is spent in saddle of an F-16 Fighting Falcon ...

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## Scorpiooo

SQ8 said:


> Absolutely not - the interface may exist but there are source codes required which are likely(99.98%) not to be released to Pakistan for integration with the Chinese Radar and the FCS.


American will never ever will provide even single bit of source code to PAF


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## Clairvoyant

Latest addition to the 3000 hours club.
Then Wing Commander now *Group Captain Umar.*
Just shows how actively these guys fly during their career.




__





Viper Pilot Flying Hours - Rasheed







www.f-16.net

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## Windjammer

Group Captain Umer ''Archer'' Rasheed, one of the few PAF pilot to have achieved 3000 hours flying the Viper.

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## Scorpiooo

Beautiful Beast (_not belong to PAF)_

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## iLION12345_1

Scorpiooo said:


> Beautiful Beast
> View attachment 766630


That’s a UAEAF F-16 Block 60

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## Scorpiooo

iLION12345_1 said:


> That’s a UAEAF F-16 Block 60


Yes it is, i didn't mentioned its belong to PAF. I mentioned about the look and capabilities of F16s in general, a fantastic picture in it self

Anyways modify discuss to clear confusion

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## iLION12345_1

_The Block 60 was designed for the United Arab Emirates Air Force (UAEAF). It Based on the F-16C/D Block 50/52, A major difference from previous blocks is the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80 Active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. The Block 60's General Electric F110-GE-132 engine is a development of the −129 model and is rated at 32,500 lbf (144 kN). The Electronic Warfare system includes the Northrop Grumman Falcon Edge Integrated Electronic Warfare Suite RWR together with the AN/ALQ-165 Self-Protection Jammer. Falcon Edge, which was developed by Northrop Grumman specifically for the Block 60, is capable of showing not only the bearing of any threat but also the range.

The MIL-STD-1553 data bus is replaced by MIL-STD-1773 fiber-optic data bus which offers a 1,000 times increase in data-handling capability. Like the F-35, the Block 60 F-16 has a built in FLIR/laser targeting system rather than using a dedicated pod that would occupy a hardpoint, increase drag and RCS._

These were basically the first F-16s to use AESA radars way back before F-16V. They were the pinnacle of F-16 models until the V came out and are still pretty close to that series. UAE almost upgraded then further to “Block 61” models but instead is going for 5th gens now.

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## WiderMan

iLION12345_1 said:


> _The Block 60 was designed for the United Arab Emirates Air Force (UAEAF). It Based on the F-16C/D Block 50/52, A major difference from previous blocks is the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80 Active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. The Block 60's General Electric F110-GE-132 engine is a development of the −129 model and is rated at 32,500 lbf (144 kN). The Electronic Warfare system includes the Northrop Grumman Falcon Edge Integrated Electronic Warfare Suite RWR together with the AN/ALQ-165 Self-Protection Jammer. Falcon Edge, which was developed by Northrop Grumman specifically for the Block 60, is capable of showing not only the bearing of any threat but also the range.
> 
> The MIL-STD-1553 data bus is replaced by MIL-STD-1773 fiber-optic data bus which offers a 1,000 times increase in data-handling capability. Like the F-35, the Block 60 F-16 has a built in FLIR/laser targeting system rather than using a dedicated pod that would occupy a hardpoint, increase drag and RCS._
> 
> These were basically the first F-16s to use AESA radars way back before F-16V. They were the pinnacle of F-16 models until the V came out and are still pretty close to that series. UAE almost upgraded then further to “Block 61” models but instead is going for 5th gens now.



Wrong. The Block 60s, to this day, are far more capable than any subsequent iterations of the Viper.


----------



## Blacklight

iLION12345_1 said:


> _The Block 60 was designed for the United Arab Emirates Air Force (UAEAF). It Based on the F-16C/D Block 50/52, A major difference from previous blocks is the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-80 Active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. The Block 60's General Electric F110-GE-132 engine is a development of the −129 model and is rated at 32,500 lbf (144 kN). The Electronic Warfare system includes the Northrop Grumman Falcon Edge Integrated Electronic Warfare Suite RWR together with the AN/ALQ-165 Self-Protection Jammer. Falcon Edge, which was developed by Northrop Grumman specifically for the Block 60, is capable of showing not only the bearing of any threat but also the range.
> 
> The MIL-STD-1553 data bus is replaced by MIL-STD-1773 fiber-optic data bus which offers a 1,000 times increase in data-handling capability. Like the F-35, the Block 60 F-16 has a built in FLIR/laser targeting system rather than using a dedicated pod that would occupy a hardpoint, increase drag and RCS._
> 
> These were basically the first F-16s to use AESA radars way back before F-16V. They were the pinnacle of F-16 models until the V came out and are still pretty close to that series. UAE almost upgraded then further to “Block 61” models but instead is going for 5th gens now.


1) They have been upgraded to Blk61

2) GCAS

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## StormBreaker

Blacklight said:


> 1) They have been upgraded to Blk61
> 
> 2) GCAS


61 ? Is that a minor upgrade ?


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## Philip the Arab

StormBreaker said:


> 61 ? Is that a minor upgrade ?







__





View topic - What upgrades make a Block 60 into a Block 61? - General F-16 forum


Military aviation forum mainly focusing on the F-16, F-35 and F-22 jet fighters. Contains high quality discussions and has a gentle but strict moderation.



www.f-16.net





Also check out this tweet made 4 hours ago


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1422225280916066305

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## Blacklight

StormBreaker said:


> 61 ? Is that a minor upgrade ?


@SQ8 and @Raider 21 could most probably answer this better.

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## SQ8

Blacklight said:


> @SQ8 and @Raider 21 could most probably answer this better.


@StormBreaker Take the block 60 and add the changes that go into the 61. The Aesa on the block-60 is still a generation lower than what is on the block-70/72.

Essentially bringing the block-60 to block-72 standard in terms of avionics which derive from and are compatible with the F-35.

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## iLION12345_1

WiderMan said:


> Wrong. The Block 60s, to this day, are far more capable than any subsequent iterations of the Viper.


No. F-16V is more capable, I’m not aware of how deep the Block 61 modernization is but the block 60 predates F-16V by several years. Block 60 is from the early 2000s, F-16V is from the mid 2010s, the radar would not be the same, as mentioned above, but the avionics have been upgraded. I’m sure UAEs specific block 60/61s had some unique features but 15 years of tech gap isn’t easily covered even with an upgrade.

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## WiderMan

SQ8 said:


> @StormBreaker Take the block 60 and add the changes that go into the 61. The Aesa on the block-60 is still a generation lower than what is on the block-70/72.
> 
> Essentially bringing the block-60 to block-72 standard in terms of avionics which derive from and are compatible with the F-35.



The Block 70/72s are literally souped up Block 50/52s. They are not the most advanced F-16s.


iLION12345_1 said:


> No. F-16V is more capable, I’m not aware of how deep the Block 61 modernization is but the block 60 predates F-16V by several years. Block 60 is from the early 2000s, F-16V is from the mid 2010s, the radar would not be the same, as mentioned above, but the avionics have been upgraded. I’m sure UAEs specific block 60/61s had some unique features but 15 years of tech gap isn’t easily covered even with an upgrade.




That's entirely false. The Block 60’s APG-80 is not a budget AESA, like the SABR or RACR. It has more TRMs, better cooling, significantly more peak power, better range, and not least a terrain following mode that works independently of other modes.


iLION12345_1 said:


> No. F-16V is more capable, I’m not aware of how deep the Block 61 modernization is but the block 60 predates F-16V by several years. Block 60 is from the early 2000s, F-16V is from the mid 2010s, the radar would not be the same, as mentioned above, but the avionics have been upgraded. I’m sure UAEs specific block 60/61s had some unique features but 15 years of tech gap isn’t easily covered even with an upgrade.





Oh, and the Block 61 upgrade fell through eons ago, so please stop bringing it up.

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## Sifar zero

How much money and work do we need to make our counterpart to the Raytheon made towed decoy??
And can PAC make such a system with its current R&D capability?








AN/ALE-50 towed decoy system - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


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## iLION12345_1

WiderMan said:


> The Block 70/72s are literally souped up Block 50/52s. They are not the most advanced F-16s.
> 
> 
> 
> That's entirely false. The Block 60’s APG-80 is not a budget AESA, like the SABR or RACR. It has more TRMs, better cooling, significantly more peak power, better range, and not least a terrain following mode that works independently of other modes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and the Block 61 upgrade fell through eons ago, so please stop bringing it up.


Ok sir, you must be right, and all the others here must be wrong. 2000s tech versus 2015 tech, surely 2000s tech is better.

I also didn’t claim Block 61 had happened, infact I said the opposite until a few other members corrected me. Go complain to them. 
I’ll leave it there.


----------



## Trailer23

@WiderMan @iLION12345_1 
Gentlemen, before this turns into another historic [PDF] p!ssing contest - I took the liberty of searching for the appropriate answer..., by a former USAF Pilot*.

Hope it helps & that we come back on Earth with our ol' Block-15's & few Block-52's.

*Richard Crandall , former USAF *F-111* and *F-15E* Pilot at U.S. Air Force (1980-1998)

*The APG-80 is the AESA radar on UAE’s Block 60 F-16s while the APG-83 is a Scalable radar that is available to both older F-16s (Block 20 to 50) and the current Block 70 F-16.

The APG-83’s scalable design allows it to be integrated into all F-16s going back to Block 20 as in case of Taiwan. However, performance of a retrofitted APG-83 will be limited by the cooling capacity of the aircraft which was designed for a Mechanical radar. So APG-83 on older F-16s will have lower peak power and therefore, smaller range than APG-80 on Block 60 but its a major performance upgrade for the older F-16s flying with Mechanical radars.*





*However, it won’t be a problem for APG-83 on Block 70 as it’s a new airframe designed to accommodate the APG-83 radar at its full capacity. Both APG-83 on Block 70 and APG-80 on Block 60 should have very similar performance.

The APG-80 and APG-83 are from the same company (Northrop) that designed F-22 and F-35’s radar and use the same TRM technology (but not the same modules). I suspect the main difference between APG-80 and APG-83 will be in their Air-Ground modes, the APG-83 likely has better SAR resolution and use some of the ground target recognition algorithm in F-35’s radar.*

*-------------------------------------------

SABR AESA Radar for the F-16*









*Link:* SABR Datasheet

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## Windjammer

*PAF Air chief Enters The Parade Venue. *





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=367243888251841

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## SQ8

WiderMan said:


> The Block 70/72s are literally souped up Block 50/52s. They are not the most advanced F-16s.
> 
> 
> 
> That's entirely false. The Block 60’s APG-80 is not a budget AESA, like the SABR or RACR. It has more TRMs, better cooling, significantly more peak power, better range, and not least a terrain following mode that works independently of other modes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and the Block 61 upgrade fell through eons ago, so please stop bringing it up.


They probably don’t need to be .. there is something called the F-35 out now which the manufacturer would like to offer instead.

That being said the AESA and datalink is more advanced than the baseline Block-60.

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## khanasifm

Trailer23 said:


> @WiderMan @iLION12345_1
> Gentlemen, before this turns into another historic [PDF] p!ssing contest - I took the liberty of searching for the appropriate answer..., by a former USAF Pilot*.
> 
> Hope it helps & that we come back on Earth with our ol' Block-15's & few Block-52's.
> 
> *Richard Crandall , former USAF *F-111* and *F-15E* Pilot at U.S. Air Force (1980-1998)
> 
> *The APG-80 is the AESA radar on UAE’s Block 60 F-16s while the APG-83 is a Scalable radar that is available to both older F-16s (Block 20 to 50) and the current Block 70 F-16.
> 
> The APG-83’s scalable design allows it to be integrated into all F-16s going back to Block 20 as in case of Taiwan. However, performance of a retrofitted APG-83 will be limited by the cooling capacity of the aircraft which was designed for a Mechanical radar. So APG-83 on older F-16s will have lower peak power and therefore, smaller range than APG-80 on Block 60 but its a major performance upgrade for the older F-16s flying with Mechanical radars.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *However, it won’t be a problem for APG-83 on Block 70 as it’s a new airframe designed to accommodate the APG-83 radar at its full capacity. Both APG-83 on Block 70 and APG-80 on Block 60 should have very similar performance.
> 
> The APG-80 and APG-83 are from the same company (Northrop) that designed F-22 and F-35’s radar and use the same TRM technology (but not the same modules). I suspect the main difference between APG-80 and APG-83 will be in their Air-Ground modes, the APG-83 likely has better SAR resolution and use some of the ground target recognition algorithm in F-35’s radar.*
> 
> *-------------------------------------------
> 
> SABR AESA Radar for the F-16*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 767020​
> *Link:* SABR Datasheet



UAE 🇦🇪 paid for its version and had rights to it to sell to other and it was first of kind commercial deals in the industry anyway there were no buyers and it’s at least decade older than saber , Raytheon and NG competed but NG had traditionally won usaf side while Raytheon on navy like f-18 radar and f-15 latest version 

Northrop is basically old Westinghouse radar shop


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## Windjammer

New PAF Air chief enters the parade venue in new style.

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## ghazi52

Incoming Block - 52

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## baqai

Looking forward for the day when Chief decides to come in Bravo


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## The Raven

baqai said:


> Looking forward for the day when Chief decides to come in Bravo



As long as it's not anywhere near any rubbish dump.

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## Trailer23

Gentlemen, I present you - The *F-16 XL* & what became of the project.





@araz @airomerix @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal. @Hodor @SQ8 @Windjammer @The Eagle @Akh1112 @GriffinsRule @iLION12345_1 @Mrc @Path-Finder @Signalian @Stealth @The Raven @Yasser76 @ziaulislam @PradoTLC

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## PakFactor

The Raven said:


> As long as it's not anywhere near any rubbish dump.



Can you clarify?


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## The Raven

PakFactor said:


> Can you clarify?



To avoid bird strike, like the recent example.


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## Hawkeye1

The Raven said:


> To avoid bird strike, like the recent example.


Who confirmed it that it was a bird strike?

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## Trailer23

Hawkeye1 said:


> Who confirmed it that it was a *bird strike*?


Well it certainly wasn't Abhinandan coming down.

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## Path-Finder

Trailer23 said:


> Gentlemen, I present you - The *F-16 XL* & what became of the project.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @araz @airomerix @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal. @Hodor @SQ8 @Windjammer @The Eagle @Akh1112 @GriffinsRule @iLION12345_1 @Mrc @Path-Finder @Signalian @Stealth @The Raven @Yasser76 @ziaulislam @PradoTLC


or, F36 tigershark.


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## The Eagle

Trailer23 said:


> Gentlemen, I present you - The *F-16 XL* & what became of the project.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @araz @airomerix @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal. @Hodor @SQ8 @Windjammer @The Eagle @Akh1112 @GriffinsRule @iLION12345_1 @Mrc @Path-Finder @Signalian @Stealth @The Raven @Yasser76 @ziaulislam @PradoTLC



Since USAF had the choice of F-15 with dual engine and other benefactors; sometimes really wished that we should have pursued F-XL type for deep strike capability with maneuverability, high payload and super cruise in single engine. However, as the time advanced and so the tech along with doctrine and tactics; it's not necessary to go for Delta only being.a choice for deep strike. Now the deep strike super cruise capability is all how a nation can develop with NGF. I think that's how the AZM NGF will grow into future.....with air superiority to deep strike like a true multirole NGF.

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## hassan1



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## ghazi52



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## Sifar zero

Can anyone link me the video in which a F 16 is pumping flares over Islamabad while pulling up?
@Trailer23 @ghazi52


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## Windjammer

Sifar zero said:


> Can anyone link me the video in which a F 16 is pumping flares over Islamabad while pulling up?
> @Trailer23 @ghazi52

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## ghazi52

*F 16 block 52+ | Popping Volley of Flares | Falcons | Rehearsals | 2021*

Mar 17, 2021










Sifar zero said:


> Can anyone link me the video in which a F 16 is pumping flares over Islamabad while pulling up?
> @Trailer23 @ghazi52

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## Sifar zero

Windjammer said:


>


There is another one ,the F 16 is facing Margalla hills.


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## Trailer23

Sifar zero said:


> There is another one ,the F 16 is facing Margalla hills.


Sorry, I don't know which vid you're referring to.

Most of the PAF footage of flares is taken by amateurs from the ground so its it doesn't really intrigue me to use in my video edits.


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## Sifar zero

Trailer23 said:


> Sorry, I don't know which vid you're referring to.
> 
> Most of the PAF footage of flares is taken by amateurs from the ground so its it doesn't really intrigue me to use in my video edits.


A guy is filming it from a road it was quite cool.


----------



## baqai

PakFactor said:


> Can you clarify?



he is referring to the recent crash of bravo due to bird strike

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## ghazi52

"WE all want to be alive, A few daring ones choose to live for ever."
Torchbearers of Pakistan Air Force.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Last starfighter

The F-16 Fighting Falcon Can Beat Anything (Even Father Time?) 





August 12, 2021 Topic: F-16 Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags: F-16AESA RadarUpgradesSLEPF-21Military 

Today’s Air Force F-16 dates back as far as the 1970s, a circumstance which might lead some to wonder how the combat aircraft has sustained its combat relevance and performance capacity into the dynamic threat environment of the 2020s. 
The Air Force is giving its 1970s-era F-16 fighter jet F-35 technology as part of a massive fleet-wide overhaul intended to improve targeting, attack precision and computer systems—to extend the fighter’s combat life all the way into the 2040s. 

It might be tough to imagine that today’s Air Force F-16 dates back as far as the 1970s, a circumstance which might lead some to wonder how the combat aircraft has sustained its combat relevance and performance capacity into the dynamic threat environment of the 2020s. 
The answer is actually quite extensive and goes back many years to the inception and preservation of an F-16 Service Life Extension Program (SLEP) which upgraded the upper wing skin and fittings, adjusted the bulkhead and canopy and gave the aircraft an F-35 Active Electronically Scanned Radar (AESA). With AESA, the F-16 incorporated an entirely new ability to find, detect and track enemy threats at much greater ranges. The aim of the SLEP was to extend the flight time of F-16s from roughly six-to-seven thousand flight hours to eight thousand or more flight hours. On top of that, the service’s confidence in the upgrades has led to a plan to have the F-16 fly all the way out to twelve thousand hours. 

The AESA radar, which Lockheed developers say can track up to twenty targets at one time, is a massive upgrade beyond the F-16s previous mechanically-scanned radar. By virtue of its ability to track multiple targets, the AESA radar can scan in a 360-degree sphere to include horizontal, vertical and diagonal vectors. 

Not surprisingly, the F-16 has also in recent years received new cockpit avionics to include moving map displays, video in the cockpit. digital graphics screens and new target tracking systems. Upgraded F-16s also use a high degree of increased onboard automation to free up pilot focus and workload. By automatically performing a range of important procedural functions independently, a pilot is then freed up to focus more intently on other mission-critical tasks. 
Alongside the Air Force SLEP, Lockheed Martin has also been building a new F-16v variant, which continues to inspire allied interest around the globe. The F-16v also uses new computers and software as well as a high-definition cockpit display. The “v” model also adds a new data bus, electronic warfare suite, missile warning sensor and helmet-mounted cueing system.

This upgraded F-16v technical foundation provided the technical starting point for Lockheed Martin’s next-generation F-16 specifically built for India called the F-21. Not only does the F-21 incorporate AESA, but the jet also integrates a high-tech, next-generation targeting system called Infrared Search and Track (IRST) technology. IRST, which is used extensively in F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter jets, is a passive, long-range sensor that searches for and detects infrared emissions. Much like the AESA, the IRST can track multiple targets at once and operate in an electromagnetic warfare environment. As a passive, long-range sensor, able to provide air-to-air targeting, IRST introduces new combat variables for the F-16. 
In effect, while there are ultimately limits to how much an older aircraft can be upgraded, today’s F-16 is almost an entirely different airplane apart from keeping its basic airframe configuration. 

Kris Osborn is the defense editor for the National Interest. Osborn previously served at the Pentagon as a Highly Qualified Expert with the Office of the Assistant Secretary of the Army—Acquisition, Logistics & Technology. Osborn has also worked as an anchor and on-air military specialist at national TV networks. He has appeared as a guest military expert on Fox News, MSNBC, The Military Channel, and The History Channel. He also has a Master’s Degree in Comparative Literature from Columbia University.


Last starfighter said:


> The F-16 Fighting Falcon Can Beat Anything (Even Father Time?)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> August 12, 2021 Topic: F-16 Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags: F-16AESA RadarUpgradesSLEPF-21Military
> 
> Today’s Air Force F-16 dates back as far as the 1970s, a circumstance which might lead some to wonder how the combat aircraft has sustained its combat relevance and performance capacity into the dynamic threat environment of the 2020s.
> The Air Force is giving its 1970s-era F-16 fighter jet F-35 technology as part of a massive fleet-wide overhaul intended to improve targeting, attack precision and computer systems—to extend the fighter’s combat life all the way into the 2040s.
> 
> It might be tough to imagine that today’s Air Force F-16 dates back as far as the 1970s, a circumstance which might lead some to wonder how the combat aircraft has sustained its combat relevance and performance capacity into the dynamic threat environment of the 2020s.
> The answer is actually quite extensive and goes back many years to the inception and preservation of an F-16 Service Life Extension Program (SLEP) which upgraded the upper wing skin and fittings, adjusted the bulkhead and canopy and gave the aircraft an F-35 Active Electronically Scanned Radar (AESA). With AESA, the F-16 incorporated an entirely new ability to find, detect and track enemy threats at much greater ranges. The aim of the SLEP was to extend the flight time of F-16s from roughly six-to-seven thousand flight hours to eight thousand or more flight hours. On top of that, the service’s confidence in the upgrades has led to a plan to have the F-16 fly all the way out to twelve thousand hours.
> 
> The AESA radar, which Lockheed developers say can track up to twenty targets at one time, is a massive upgrade beyond the F-16s previous mechanically-scanned radar. By virtue of its ability to track multiple targets, the AESA radar can scan in a 360-degree sphere to include horizontal, vertical and diagonal vectors.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the F-16 has also in recent years received new cockpit avionics to include moving map displays, video in the cockpit. digital graphics screens and new target tracking systems. Upgraded F-16s also use a high degree of increased onboard automation to free up pilot focus and workload. By automatically performing a range of important procedural functions independently, a pilot is then freed up to focus more intently on other mission-critical tasks.
> Alongside the Air Force SLEP, Lockheed Martin has also been building a new F-16v variant, which continues to inspire allied interest around the globe. The F-16v also uses new computers and software as well as a high-definition cockpit display. The “v” model also adds a new data bus, electronic warfare suite, missile warning sensor and helmet-mounted cueing system.
> 
> This upgraded F-16v technical foundation provided the technical starting point for Lockheed Martin’s next-generation F-16 specifically built for India called the F-21. Not only does the F-21 incorporate AESA, but the jet also integrates a high-tech, next-generation targeting system called Infrared Search and Track (IRST) technology. IRST, which is used extensively in F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter jets, is a passive, long-range sensor that searches for and detects infrared emissions. Much like the AESA, the IRST can track multiple targets at once and operate in an electromagnetic warfare environment. As a passive, long-range sensor, able to provide air-to-air targeting, IRST introduces new combat variables for the F-16.
> In effect, while there are ultimately limits to how much an older aircraft can be upgraded, today’s F-16 is almost an entirely different airplane apart from keeping its basic airframe configuration.
> 
> Kris Osborn is the defense editor for the National Interest. Osborn previously served at the Pentagon as a Highly Qualified Expert with the Office of the Assistant Secretary of the Army—Acquisition, Logistics & Technology. Osborn has also worked as an anchor and on-air military specialist at national TV networks. He has appeared as a guest military expert on Fox News, MSNBC, The Military Channel, and The History Channel. He also has a Master’s Degree in Comparative Literature from Columbia University.


I wonder if PAF F-16 are going to get these upgrades.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## ghazi52

Fighting Falcon 
Islamabad






__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=761655667764245

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## ziaulislam

Last starfighter said:


> The F-16 Fighting Falcon Can Beat Anything (Even Father Time?)
> 
> View attachment 769249
> 
> August 12, 2021 Topic: F-16 Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags: F-16AESA RadarUpgradesSLEPF-21Military
> 
> Today’s Air Force F-16 dates back as far as the 1970s, a circumstance which might lead some to wonder how the combat aircraft has sustained its combat relevance and performance capacity into the dynamic threat environment of the 2020s.
> The Air Force is giving its 1970s-era F-16 fighter jet F-35 technology as part of a massive fleet-wide overhaul intended to improve targeting, attack precision and computer systems—to extend the fighter’s combat life all the way into the 2040s.
> 
> It might be tough to imagine that today’s Air Force F-16 dates back as far as the 1970s, a circumstance which might lead some to wonder how the combat aircraft has sustained its combat relevance and performance capacity into the dynamic threat environment of the 2020s.
> The answer is actually quite extensive and goes back many years to the inception and preservation of an F-16 Service Life Extension Program (SLEP) which upgraded the upper wing skin and fittings, adjusted the bulkhead and canopy and gave the aircraft an F-35 Active Electronically Scanned Radar (AESA). With AESA, the F-16 incorporated an entirely new ability to find, detect and track enemy threats at much greater ranges. The aim of the SLEP was to extend the flight time of F-16s from roughly six-to-seven thousand flight hours to eight thousand or more flight hours. On top of that, the service’s confidence in the upgrades has led to a plan to have the F-16 fly all the way out to twelve thousand hours.
> 
> The AESA radar, which Lockheed developers say can track up to twenty targets at one time, is a massive upgrade beyond the F-16s previous mechanically-scanned radar. By virtue of its ability to track multiple targets, the AESA radar can scan in a 360-degree sphere to include horizontal, vertical and diagonal vectors.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the F-16 has also in recent years received new cockpit avionics to include moving map displays, video in the cockpit. digital graphics screens and new target tracking systems. Upgraded F-16s also use a high degree of increased onboard automation to free up pilot focus and workload. By automatically performing a range of important procedural functions independently, a pilot is then freed up to focus more intently on other mission-critical tasks.
> Alongside the Air Force SLEP, Lockheed Martin has also been building a new F-16v variant, which continues to inspire allied interest around the globe. The F-16v also uses new computers and software as well as a high-definition cockpit display. The “v” model also adds a new data bus, electronic warfare suite, missile warning sensor and helmet-mounted cueing system.
> 
> This upgraded F-16v technical foundation provided the technical starting point for Lockheed Martin’s next-generation F-16 specifically built for India called the F-21. Not only does the F-21 incorporate AESA, but the jet also integrates a high-tech, next-generation targeting system called Infrared Search and Track (IRST) technology. IRST, which is used extensively in F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter jets, is a passive, long-range sensor that searches for and detects infrared emissions. Much like the AESA, the IRST can track multiple targets at once and operate in an electromagnetic warfare environment. As a passive, long-range sensor, able to provide air-to-air targeting, IRST introduces new combat variables for the F-16.
> In effect, while there are ultimately limits to how much an older aircraft can be upgraded, today’s F-16 is almost an entirely different airplane apart from keeping its basic airframe configuration.
> 
> Kris Osborn is the defense editor for the National Interest. Osborn previously served at the Pentagon as a Highly Qualified Expert with the Office of the Assistant Secretary of the Army—Acquisition, Logistics & Technology. Osborn has also worked as an anchor and on-air military specialist at national TV networks. He has appeared as a guest military expert on Fox News, MSNBC, The Military Channel, and The History Channel. He also has a Master’s Degree in Comparative Literature from Columbia University.
> 
> I wonder if PAF F-16 are going to get these upgrades.


No

Pakistan will be lucky if not sanctioned

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## Windjammer



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## Blacklight

@Windjammer @Tipu7 @ghazi52 @Raider 21 @StormBreaker @ali_raza 

Anyone seen a viper with an HTS pod ?

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## Tipu7

Blacklight said:


> @Windjammer @Tipu7 @ghazi52 @Raider 21 @StormBreaker @ali_raza
> 
> Anyone seen a viper with an HTS pod ?


Not me ... Never seen any thing. Just heard few things.

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## Windjammer

Blacklight said:


> @Windjammer @Tipu7 @ghazi52 @Raider 21 @StormBreaker @ali_raza
> 
> Anyone seen a viper with an HTS pod ?


Not a PAF one but otherwise . yes.

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## ali_raza

Blacklight said:


> @Windjammer @Tipu7 @ghazi52 @Raider 21 @StormBreaker @ali_raza
> 
> Anyone seen a viper with an HTS pod ?


lol enlighten us sir

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## Ghessan

ali_raza said:


> lol enlighten us sir



it's a HARM targeting pod

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## Incog_nito

Any negotiations on the MLU-4 upgradation?

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## Incog_nito

Can PAF work with the US LM for a possible integration of Raptor Series I, II, & III missiles on F-16s?


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## ali_raza

Ghessan said:


> it's a HARM targeting pod


wht do u mean harm targeting pod
there is nothing haram about targeting someone unless its opposite sex

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## khanasifm

Last starfighter said:


> The F-16 Fighting Falcon Can Beat Anything (Even Father Time?)
> 
> View attachment 769249
> 
> August 12, 2021 Topic: F-16 Blog Brand: The Buzz Tags: F-16AESA RadarUpgradesSLEPF-21Military
> 
> Today’s Air Force F-16 dates back as far as the 1970s, a circumstance which might lead some to wonder how the combat aircraft has sustained its combat relevance and performance capacity into the dynamic threat environment of the 2020s.
> The Air Force is giving its 1970s-era F-16 fighter jet F-35 technology as part of a massive fleet-wide overhaul intended to improve targeting, attack precision and computer systems—to extend the fighter’s combat life all the way into the 2040s.
> 
> It might be tough to imagine that today’s Air Force F-16 dates back as far as the 1970s, a circumstance which might lead some to wonder how the combat aircraft has sustained its combat relevance and performance capacity into the dynamic threat environment of the 2020s.
> The answer is actually quite extensive and goes back many years to the inception and preservation of an F-16 Service Life Extension Program (SLEP) which upgraded the upper wing skin and fittings, adjusted the bulkhead and canopy and gave the aircraft an F-35 Active Electronically Scanned Radar (AESA). With AESA, the F-16 incorporated an entirely new ability to find, detect and track enemy threats at much greater ranges. The aim of the SLEP was to extend the flight time of F-16s from roughly six-to-seven thousand flight hours to eight thousand or more flight hours. On top of that, the service’s confidence in the upgrades has led to a plan to have the F-16 fly all the way out to twelve thousand hours.
> 
> The AESA radar, which Lockheed developers say can track up to twenty targets at one time, is a massive upgrade beyond the F-16s previous mechanically-scanned radar. By virtue of its ability to track multiple targets, the AESA radar can scan in a 360-degree sphere to include horizontal, vertical and diagonal vectors.
> 
> Not surprisingly, the F-16 has also in recent years received new cockpit avionics to include moving map displays, video in the cockpit. digital graphics screens and new target tracking systems. Upgraded F-16s also use a high degree of increased onboard automation to free up pilot focus and workload. By automatically performing a range of important procedural functions independently, a pilot is then freed up to focus more intently on other mission-critical tasks.
> Alongside the Air Force SLEP, Lockheed Martin has also been building a new F-16v variant, which continues to inspire allied interest around the globe. The F-16v also uses new computers and software as well as a high-definition cockpit display. The “v” model also adds a new data bus, electronic warfare suite, missile warning sensor and helmet-mounted cueing system.
> 
> This upgraded F-16v technical foundation provided the technical starting point for Lockheed Martin’s next-generation F-16 specifically built for India called the F-21. Not only does the F-21 incorporate AESA, but the jet also integrates a high-tech, next-generation targeting system called Infrared Search and Track (IRST) technology. IRST, which is used extensively in F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter jets, is a passive, long-range sensor that searches for and detects infrared emissions. Much like the AESA, the IRST can track multiple targets at once and operate in an electromagnetic warfare environment. As a passive, long-range sensor, able to provide air-to-air targeting, IRST introduces new combat variables for the F-16.
> In effect, while there are ultimately limits to how much an older aircraft can be upgraded, today’s F-16 is almost an entirely different airplane apart from keeping its basic airframe configuration.
> 
> Kris Osborn is the defense editor for the National Interest. Osborn previously served at the Pentagon as a Highly Qualified Expert with the Office of the Assistant Secretary of the Army—Acquisition, Logistics & Technology. Osborn has also worked as an anchor and on-air military specialist at national TV networks. He has appeared as a guest military expert on Fox News, MSNBC, The Military Channel, and The History Channel. He also has a Master’s Degree in Comparative Literature from Columbia University.
> 
> I wonder if PAF F-16 are going to get these upgrades.




So even Mirages were eval and after rebuilt fuselage has 8000 hours life, paf mirages just touching 5000 hours in 30-50 years imagine 8000 hours or 12000 hours Lm had done study ans can take it to 12000 similarly Mashaq pac just did student ana cleared for 12000 hours in steps from 8-10-12

This f-16 upgrade will cost wise mean getting a Jf-17


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## Talon

ADF

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## mingle

Hodor said:


> ADF
> View attachment 771846


Any update about V upgrades?


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## Viper27

Hodor said:


> ADF
> View attachment 771846



ADFs are so sexy! Shame they can’t use our AMRAAMs

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## Scorpiooo

Viper27 said:


> ADFs are so sexy! Shame they can’t use our AMRAAMs


They can if we are able get some updates kit from Americans


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## Viper27

Scorpiooo said:


> They can if we are able get some updates kit from Americans



In a parallel universe the Block 72s, C-130Js, J-15s have all landed in Pakistan and even PAF high command is unable to detect them due to classified stealth technology.

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## khanasifm

There was a picture posted here somewhere of paf F-16 ADF with Amraams which disposed off the topic of adf not capable of carrying bvr can someone share it again

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## SQ8

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 772725
> 
> 
> There was a picture posted here somewhere of paf F-16 ADF with Amraams which disposed off the topic of adf not capable of carrying bvr can someone share it again


I believe there was a myth of that picture existing versus the actual picture but I would be happy to be proven wrong.

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## khanasifm

SQ8 said:


> I believe there was a myth of that picture existing versus the actual picture but I would be happy to be proven wrong.




I have seen it ans save it somewhere and now cannot find it


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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer



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## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 774062


Some promotional photo-op for a Brand or Music vid?

There are most here dying to just be in striking distance of our F-16's, and some random guy in skinny jeans gets to take pictures next to one of 'em.

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## ghazi52

Ali Zafar teasing his latest project involving PAF. 
Probably regarding Air Force Day.


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## Iron Shrappenel

khanasifm said:


> View attachment 772725
> 
> 
> There was a picture posted here somewhere of paf F-16 ADF with Amraams which disposed off the topic of adf not capable of carrying bvr can someone share it again


On the contrary look how nimble Jeff is.... Any reason we made it so small ? In light of integrating newer tech by the passing years that is.


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## The Eagle

Can we please avoid using slang for JF-17 Thunder. At-least type as JF if the complete name is so time taking and energy wasting but, we can however write in professional manners as a start to take it to the level of an experienced and we'll versed person on the matter. Such an attitude of calling name for Thunder will extend into more unprofessional ethics while quoting any fighter jet or subject of interest. It's JF-17 please. Lastly, this is not JF-17 related Thread.

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## Windjammer

F-16 ADF Variants for the PAF before delivery from Jordan.

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## Windjammer

*Lockheed (General Dynamics) F-16A/B ADF Block 15*
The Lockheed (General Dynamics) F-16A ADF Block 15 (Air Defense Fighter) is the only interceptor assigned to air defence of the North American continent; with the collapse of the Soviet Union, it almost certainly the last.
The US Air Force decided in October 1986 to convert 270 F-16A/B Block 15 Fighting Falcons to ADF standard. The Cold War drove military plans, which called for 14 ANG (Air National Guard) squadrons to receive the ADF to defend North America from bombers and cruise missiles. This combat role had not been foreseen when the F-16 Fighting Falcon was developed and no American unit had operated the F-16 with a radar-guided missile or on a long-range intercept profile.
The ADF conversion is centered primarily on upgrading the existing AN/APG-66 radar to improve small target detection and provide continuous-wave illumination (this giving the ability to launch AIM-7 Sparrow BVR missiles). Further modifications include a night identification light in the port forward fuselage, advanced IFF, high frequency, single side-band radio, improved ECCM and provision for GPS and AIM-120 AMRAAM missile datalink. The ADF F-16 can carry up to six AIM-7 or AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles and retains the internal 20-mm M61 cannon of the F-16A. The first successful launch of a sparrow took place in February 1989.
Actual conversion of the ADF F-16s (completed in early 1992) was undertaken by USAF's Odgen Air Material Area at Hill AFM, Utah, with General Dynamics-sourced modification kits. Development of the ADF F-16 was conducted at Edwards AFB in 1990 and was followed by operational test and evulation with the 57th Fighter Weapons Wing at Nellis AFB, Nevada. The first service aircraft were assigned to the 114th Fighter Squadron, Oregon ANG, at Kingsley Field in Klamath.
*F-16 History*
The first F-16 to arrive in Jordan was destined for the squadron and landed at Muwaffaq Al-Salti AB in December of 1997. Under the Peace Falcon I program, Jordan would receive 16 F-16s – being 12 A-models and 4 B-models – in the ADF version. These F-16s had been stored at AMARC since 1994-1995 and were sent to the Ogden logistical facility to get them to flying condition again.
Since the Jordanian Air Force lacked an aircraft with a dedicated air defence profile and with the possibility to engage beyond visual range, these F-16s were solely used in this role. These aircraft boosted the air defence potential of the Jordanian Air Force dramatically. *Although a modern BVR weapon as the AIM-120 wasn’t included in the deal. These were only added to the fleet in 2004*. In between, the Jordan’s had to rely on the less sophisticated AIM-7 missile to conduct their BVR missions.

The Jordanian Air Force has conducted a major re-equipment program over the past years. More F-16s were added to the fleet with these being modernized to the MLU standards. Although envisioned to be upgraded as well, the F-16s of 2 squadron remain unmodified. Therefore they retain their specific air defence duties without being truly multirole capable. Time will tell whether these aircraft will receive the MLU package as the rest of the fleet.
In a surprise move the F-16s of the ADF version were all sold to Pakistan in April of 2014 with all aircraft being delivered in weeks.


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## Sifar zero

Windjammer said:


> F-16 ADF Variants for the PAF before delivery from Jordan.
> 
> 
> View attachment 774578


Were they refurbished before the delivery?


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## iLION12345_1

Windjammer said:


> *Lockheed (General Dynamics) F-16A/B ADF Block 15*
> The Lockheed (General Dynamics) F-16A ADF Block 15 (Air Defense Fighter) is the only interceptor assigned to air defence of the North American continent; with the collapse of the Soviet Union, it almost certainly the last.
> The US Air Force decided in October 1986 to convert 270 F-16A/B Block 15 Fighting Falcons to ADF standard. The Cold War drove military plans, which called for 14 ANG (Air National Guard) squadrons to receive the ADF to defend North America from bombers and cruise missiles. This combat role had not been foreseen when the F-16 Fighting Falcon was developed and no American unit had operated the F-16 with a radar-guided missile or on a long-range intercept profile.
> The ADF conversion is centered primarily on upgrading the existing AN/APG-66 radar to improve small target detection and provide continuous-wave illumination (this giving the ability to launch AIM-7 Sparrow BVR missiles). Further modifications include a night identification light in the port forward fuselage, advanced IFF, high frequency, single side-band radio, improved ECCM and provision for GPS and AIM-120 AMRAAM missile datalink. The ADF F-16 can carry up to six AIM-7 or AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles and retains the internal 20-mm M61 cannon of the F-16A. The first successful launch of a sparrow took place in February 1989.
> Actual conversion of the ADF F-16s (completed in early 1992) was undertaken by USAF's Odgen Air Material Area at Hill AFM, Utah, with General Dynamics-sourced modification kits. Development of the ADF F-16 was conducted at Edwards AFB in 1990 and was followed by operational test and evulation with the 57th Fighter Weapons Wing at Nellis AFB, Nevada. The first service aircraft were assigned to the 114th Fighter Squadron, Oregon ANG, at Kingsley Field in Klamath.
> *F-16 History*
> The first F-16 to arrive in Jordan was destined for the squadron and landed at Muwaffaq Al-Salti AB in December of 1997. Under the Peace Falcon I program, Jordan would receive 16 F-16s – being 12 A-models and 4 B-models – in the ADF version. These F-16s had been stored at AMARC since 1994-1995 and were sent to the Ogden logistical facility to get them to flying condition again.
> Since the Jordanian Air Force lacked an aircraft with a dedicated air defence profile and with the possibility to engage beyond visual range, these F-16s were solely used in this role. These aircraft boosted the air defence potential of the Jordanian Air Force dramatically. *Although a modern BVR weapon as the AIM-120 wasn’t included in the deal. These were only added to the fleet in 2004*. In between, the Jordan’s had to rely on the less sophisticated AIM-7 missile to conduct their BVR missions.
> 
> The Jordanian Air Force has conducted a major re-equipment program over the past years. More F-16s were added to the fleet with these being modernized to the MLU standards. Although envisioned to be upgraded as well, the F-16s of 2 squadron remain unmodified. Therefore they retain their specific air defence duties without being truly multirole capable. Time will tell whether these aircraft will receive the MLU package as the rest of the fleet.
> In a surprise move the F-16s of the ADF version were all sold to Pakistan in April of 2014 with all aircraft being delivered in weeks.


TLDR: PAF ADFs _*CAN *_carry AIM120.
@SQ8 @khanasifm ^


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## GriffinsRule

iLION12345_1 said:


> TLDR: PAF ADFs _*CAN *_carry AIM120.
> @SQ8 @khanasifm ^


AIM-120B ... not C5

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## iLION12345_1

GriffinsRule said:


> AIM-120B ... not C5


Still an AIM120, though I see your point. Not the same thing. Thanks for the correction.

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## SQ8

iLION12345_1 said:


> TLDR: PAF ADFs _*CAN *_carry AIM120.
> @SQ8 @khanasifm ^


So far as I know - it needed a new update to exploit the AIM-120C. Might still be able to carry it but wont have the same effectiveness.

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## Scorpiooo

Wait and see, now its crunch time .. may be Afghanistan situation and Pakistan role now and in possible in future.. leads the way for few EDAs and updation kits


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## Scorpiooo

Polish F-16 (not belong to PAF)

beautiful formation and picture

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## ghazi52



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## Blacklight

Scorpiooo said:


> Polish F-16 (not belong to PAF)
> 
> beautiful formation and picture
> 
> View attachment 775504


This is called a "ladder" stack. It's used to confuse radars into showing less aircrafts, than those present. 

@SQ8 & @Raider 21 Can tell us more, including how new AESA radars respond to similar maneuvers.

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## Talon

iLION12345_1 said:


> Still an AIM120, though I see your point. Not the same thing. Thanks for the correction.



B is more lethal than C . It has better maneuverability but lesser range.



Blacklight said:


> This is called a "ladder" stack. It's used to confuse radars into showing less aircrafts, than those present.
> 
> @SQ8 & @Raider 21 Can tell us more, including how new AESA radars respond to similar maneuvers.


Ladder and Stack are two different formations, this one is ladder. In stack, wingmen form above the lead aircraft.

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## ghazi52



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## Scorpiooo

Hodor said:


> B is more lethal than C . It has better maneuverability but lesser range.
> 
> 
> Ladder and Stack are two different formations, this one is ladder. In stack, wingmen form above the lead aircraft.


Do PAF have aim120B ? I know we have aim120C5 apx 500


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## Imran Khan

Scorpiooo said:


> Do PAF have aim120B ? I know we have aim120C5 apx 500


pakistan only purchased once 506 AIM120C5 that is it .

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## araz

Scorpiooo said:


> Do PAF have aim120B ? I know we have aim120C5 apx 500


498 to be precise😉😄😁🤣😇

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## Scorpiooo

araz said:


> 498 to be precise😉😄😁🤣😇


2 in place of fantastic tea

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## Thorough Pro

You think they never used any in training exercises?



araz said:


> 498 to be precise😉😄😁🤣😇


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## araz

Thorough Pro said:


> You think they never used any in training exercises?


They have training rounds for that.
A


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## Talon

Thorough Pro said:


> You think they never used any in training exercises?


There's a *simulation* option in the jet so no need to fire the actual weapon


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## Thorough Pro

I know about the training rounds, but I am talking about the real missile firing in exercises, just like the PA and PN do in their offensive and defensive exercise regimes





araz said:


> They have training rounds for that.
> A


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## SQ8

Blacklight said:


> This is called a "ladder" stack. It's used to confuse radars into showing less aircrafts, than those present.
> 
> @SQ8 & @Raider 21 Can tell us more, including how new AESA radars respond to similar maneuvers.


The easiest way to express it for a layman is to think of it in terms of refresh rates for that picture. A normal Pulse doppler Radar has to cycle its beam back and forth to create an image and may miss aircraft stacked on top of each interpreting them as one target as they move.
The closest analogy is like old TVs with their beams creating the image at 60HZ. This would cause some motions to get missed and details skipped.

An AESA however is capable of scanning a massive space at extremely fast rates so its not missing the returns from these targets due to the delay of the beam. Infact, the individual modules in a AESA are radars in their own right. So much like a LED TV refreshing at 120Hz, the picture is smoother and crisper - not missing the details of formations stacked.

Now here is another kicker, there was a way to identify aircraft using radar returns known as NCTR(Non cooperative target recognition) that was looking deeper into the waveforms of the returns to identify what aircraft is being tracked and which is where systems like Rafale’s spectra came in to thwart it. With AESA however, all the fancy gimmicks trying to fool traditional radars become useless and it come down to a matter of how much power the Radar has against how much the jammer has.


Thorough Pro said:


> I know about the training rounds, but I am talking about the real missile firing in exercises, just like the PA and PN do in their offensive and defensive exercise regimes


They paid over $200k per missile and 2 live fire demonstrations have happened in combat conditions to verify they work and pilots are generally proficient in its use. I’d say that is proof enough not to waste missiles in training shots.

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## CriticalThought

SQ8 said:


> The easiest way to express it for a layman is to think of it in terms of refresh rates for that picture. A normal Pulse doppler Radar has to cycle its beam back and forth to create an image and may miss aircraft stacked on top of each interpreting them as one target as they move.
> The closest analogy is like old TVs with their beams creating the image at 60HZ. This would cause some motions to get missed and details skipped.
> 
> An AESA however is capable of scanning a massive space at extremely fast rates so its not missing the returns from these targets due to the delay of the beam. Infact, the individual modules in a AESA are radars in their own right. So much like a LED TV refreshing at 120Hz, the picture is smoother and crisper - not missing the details of formations stacked.
> 
> Now here is another kicker, there was a way to identify aircraft using radar returns known as NCTR(Non cooperative target recognition) that was looking deeper into the waveforms of the returns to identify what aircraft is being tracked and which is where systems like Rafale’s spectra came in to thwart it. With AESA however, all the fancy gimmicks trying to fool traditional radars become useless and it come down to a matter of how much power the Radar has against how much the jammer has.
> 
> They paid over $200k per missile and 2 live fire demonstrations have happened in combat conditions to verify they work and pilots are generally proficient in its use. I’d say that is proof enough not to waste missiles in training shots.



Depending on the angle from the radar, aircraft can hide behind others, thus giving the perception of fewer aircraft than there really are. It would need knowledge of the exact location of the radars, and a trajectory computed by software which would need to be followed by auto-pilot. A good application of optimization/machine learning/AI. And an example of the capabilities of 5th gen aircraft. Now, the aircraft presenting themselves as targets can be loyal wingmen...


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## The Eagle

Thorough Pro said:


> I know about the training rounds, but I am talking about the real missile firing in exercises, just like the PA and PN do in their offensive and defensive exercise regimes



The real missile firing you are referring to, happens during test & validation of new weapons only. PN or PA does so as & when a newly produced weapon has to be tested. Weapons in active duty arsenal are supposed to fired only when there are Abhis at receiving end.

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## CriticalThought

The Eagle said:


> The real missile firing you are referring to, happens during test & validation of new weapons only. PN or PA does so as & when a newly produced weapon has to be tested. Weapons in active duty arsenal are supposed to fired only when there are Abhis at receiving end.



From a pure quality control point of view, if you have 100 weapons in storage for 10 years, you really can't say anything about their efficacy until and unless you take out a few and actually fire them. This is statistical quality control - you can't fire all weapons so you try to determine the quality through statistical sampling. You don't want to find out when Abhi is on the other side that your weapons no longer work.

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## Blacklight

CriticalThought said:


> From a pure quality control point of view, if you have 100 weapons in storage for 10 years, y*ou really can't say anything about their efficacy* until and unless you take out a few and actually fire them. This is statistical quality control - you can't fire all weapons so you try to determine the quality through statistical sampling. You don't want to find out when Abhi is on the other side that your weapons no longer work.



1) Diagnostic kits? 
2) Inspection is carried out after specified time intervals, just like aircrafts go through their A,B,C,D checks.
3) Some parts, irrespective of their condition, after "X" yrs in storage, are either re-furbished, or replaced.


CriticalThought said:


> *Depending on the angle from the radar, aircraft can hide behind others*, thus giving the perception of fewer aircraft than there really are. It would need knowledge of the exact location of the radars, and a trajectory computed by software which would need to be followed by auto-pilot. A good application of optimization/machine learning/AI. And an example of the capabilities of 5th gen aircraft. Now, the aircraft presenting themselves as targets can be loyal wingmen...


Theoretically possible only on paper, given today's AESA tech, highly improbable. 
Besides, what is missed by ground based radars, will be detected by AWACS/ CAP's via their Radar/ FLIR / IRST.

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## Enigma SIG

CriticalThought said:


> From a pure quality control point of view, if you have 100 weapons in storage for 10 years, you really can't say anything about their efficacy until and unless you take out a few and actually fire them. This is statistical quality control - you can't fire all weapons so you try to determine the quality through statistical sampling. You don't want to find out when Abhi is on the other side that your weapons no longer work.


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## Blacklight

SQ8 said:


> With AESA however, all the fancy gimmicks trying to fool traditional radars become useless and *it come down to a matter of how much power the Radar has against how much the jammer has.*


Thank You Brother, for the confirmation and helpful insight. Really appreciated! 

Now could you tell us, how a modern day AESA radar reacts to jamming?

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## araz

CriticalThought said:


> Depending on the angle from the radar, aircraft can hide behind others, thus giving the perception of fewer aircraft than there really are. It would need knowledge of the exact location of the radars, and a trajectory computed by software which would need to be followed by auto-pilot. A good application of optimization/machine learning/AI. And an example of the capabilities of 5th gen aircraft. Now, the aircraft presenting themselves as targets can be loyal wingmen...


We have had an own goal in a training session between 2 mirages. One accidentally fired a missile at another. Fortunately the pilot ejected unharmed. You dont want a repeat of that in an exercise. Leave that to our neighbours. Even on target drones as mentioned earlier by a poster you dont use established AAMs but try out newer missiles during testing.
A

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## Talon

araz said:


> We have had an own goal in a training session between 2 mirages. One accidentally fired a missile at another. Fortunately the pilot ejected unharmed. You dont want a repeat of that in an exercise. Leave that to our neighbours. Even on target drones as mentioned earlier by a poster you dont use established AAMs but try out newer missiles during testing.
> A


A mistake that Pakistani aviation geeks will keep quoting till eternity..

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## untitled

araz said:


> Even on target drones as mentioned earlier by a poster you dont use established AAMs but try out newer missiles during testing.


Unless you are a country that makes its own missiles and thus always has spare missiles for live training. Live training has its benefits if you can afford it

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## Talon

Blacklight said:


> Thank You Brother, for the confirmation and helpful insight. Really appreciated!
> 
> Now could you tell us, how a modern day AESA radar reacts to jamming?


Please keep in mind, picking up the aircraft isn't the main issue.. unable to get a lock on the aircraft is the problem

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## araz

Hodor said:


> A mistake that Pakistani aviation geeks will keep quoting till eternity..


So did I do something wrong? Just because an event is not mentioned does not mean it did not occur. 
A


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## Talon

araz said:


> So did I do something wrong? Just because an event is not mentioned does not mean it did not occur.
> A


No sir you got me wrong.. the said event is mentioned too much

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## CriticalThought

Blacklight said:


> 1) Diagnostic kits?
> 2) Inspection is carried out after specified time intervals, just like aircrafts go through their A,B,C,D checks.
> 3) Some parts, irrespective of their condition, after "X" yrs in storage, are either re-furbished, or replaced.



Those measures can increase confidence, but the proof is in the pudding. It is extremely risky to have weapons that have not been used at all. Having said that, I will defer to the professionals.



Blacklight said:


> Theoretically possible only on paper, given today's AESA tech, highly improbable.
> Besides, what is missed by ground based radars, will be detected by AWACS/ CAP's via their Radar/ FLIR / IRST.



AESA can form multiple beams, but it is still not an X-Ray machine. If you have a physical object between yourself and the radar, you are hidden.

Mission planning in 5th gen warfare is a matter of information warfare. Knowing the number of ground radars and aerial threats is crucial. Given this, the software can either compute a trajectory, in which case the mission is a go, or fail to produce a result. As in anything, no plan is flawless and there is a chance of detection, in which case you engage. There is no such thing as 100% invisibility, but 5th gen tactics give you an increased survivability and mission success. Also, how you use this also matters. There is no substitute for cunning and deception.


----------



## CriticalThought

araz said:


> We have had an own goal in a training session between 2 mirages. One accidentally fired a missile at another. Fortunately the pilot ejected unharmed. You dont want a repeat of that in an exercise. Leave that to our neighbours. Even on target drones as mentioned earlier by a poster you dont use established AAMs but try out newer missiles during testing.
> A



I think you quoted the wrong post. But I hear you. My personal opinion is that some kind of statistical quality control would be essential to determine war readiness, and it would involve actual firing of the missile. It is the reason why PAF would be willing to line up all the F-16s to refute claims of downing the plane, but wouldn't give an inventory of AMRAAMs to refute claims of AMRAAM dodgers. As always, these are my personal opinions. I always defer to professionals.

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## Blacklight

CriticalThought said:


> Those measures can increase confidence, but the proof is in the pudding. It is extremely risky to have weapons that have not been used at all. Having said that, I will defer to the professionals.


Bro, We do live tests, as well as use Captive Training missiles. With the order in 2006 for C5's, 12 Training missiles were also delivered.

Btw, we are desi people, pudding is like the Chinese soup we get in Pak, with too much corn flour, so we stick to halwas. 



CriticalThought said:


> AESA can form multiple beams, but it is still not an X-Ray machine. If you have a physical object between yourself and the radar, you are hidden.


Depends on the molecular structure of the obfuscation being used.



CriticalThought said:


> Mission planning in 5th gen warfare is a matter of information warfare. Knowing the number of ground radars and aerial threats is crucial. Given this, the software can either compute a trajectory, in which case the mission is a go, or fail to produce a result. As in anything, no plan is flawless and there is a chance of detection, in which case you engage. There is no such thing as 100% invisibility, but 5th gen tactics give you an increased survivability and mission success. Also, how you use this also matters. There is no substitute for cunning and deception.



Tactics based upon latest tech, and intensive training, will yield better results. Absolutely!

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## Blacklight

Hodor said:


> Please keep in mind, picking up the aircraft isn't the main issue.. *unable to get a lock on the aircraft *is the problem


LOAL, 2 way data link, IR seeker, and ELINT Alh tackle this issue quiet well.

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## araz

Hodor said:


> No sir you got me wrong.. the said event is mentioned too much


No my brother. I got your post incorrectly. My apologies. 
Kind regards
A

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## Thorough Pro

PN does live fire test every year with all types of weapons
PA does the same, and I assume PAF also does the same, but can't be 100% sure about PAF




The Eagle said:


> The real missile firing you are referring to, happens during test & validation of new weapons only. PN or PA does so as & when a newly produced weapon has to be tested. Weapons in active duty arsenal are supposed to fired only when there are Abhis at receiving end.


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## baqai

araz said:


> We have had an own goal in a training session between 2 mirages. One accidentally fired a missile at another. Fortunately the pilot ejected unharmed. You dont want a repeat of that in an exercise. Leave that to our neighbours. Even on target drones as mentioned earlier by a poster you dont use established AAMs but try out newer missiles during testing.
> A



just wondering what happened to the pilot who made the mistake?


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## araz

baqai said:


> just wondering what happened to the pilot who made the mistake?


Lost his job.
A

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## ghazi52

Work hard guys & enjoy the process of learning & mastering your aircraft. Be proud of what you've accomplished so far. And its about to get better.

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## Trailer23

Well it looks like the US/Lockheed Martin just lost a customer due to financial issues. 

Defense Secretary Delfin Lorenzana on Thursday said the *Philippines* is unlikely to acquire Lockheed Martin F-16 jet fighters for its multi-role fighter (MFR) program for now due to budgetary constraints.

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## The Eagle

Trailer23 said:


> Well it looks like the US/Lockheed Martin just lost a customer due to financial issues.
> 
> Defense Secretary Delfin Lorenzana on Thursday said the *Philippines* is unlikely to acquire Lockheed Martin F-16 jet fighters for its multi-role fighter (MFR) program for now due to budgetary constraints.



Shall we pray for them to lose couple of more customers, in an anger against uncle Sam. Similarly, how French lost $90 BN in 1 day due to Australia going for US subs.

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## mingle

Trailer23 said:


> Well it looks like the US/Lockheed Martin just lost a customer due to financial issues.
> 
> Defense Secretary Delfin Lorenzana on Thursday said the *Philippines* is unlikely to acquire Lockheed Martin F-16 jet fighters for its multi-role fighter (MFR) program for now due to budgetary constraints.


Philippines also refused to buy Apache or AH1z offered by Trump administration due to budgetary constraints


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

F-16 ADF from No.19 Sqn lining up for take off.
Sherdils

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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440428980088172546

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## Dil Pakistan

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440428980088172546



It cannot be PAF


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## Abid123

They should be replaced by 100+ J-31/J-35 when they are ready.


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## Invictus01

Dil Pakistan said:


> It cannot be PAF


You might be right considering
any sale to Pakistan would require congressional approval
I don't think we have that cause that'd be public knowledge by now

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## mingle

Dil Pakistan said:


> It cannot be PAF


It can be process will happen but not in public domain both houses will keep eye on it no other country needs secrecy when buy arms from US
US upgraded Saudi Apaches before but kept it as anonymous


----------



## Ali_Baba

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440428980088172546



omg/lol/Oh no/please no- lets not start this - The American president cannot be arsed to talk to the Pakistani Prime Minister but somehow Pakistan an order for billions of dollars? Nah ... Not Pakistan for sure.

Lets not forget what Blinken said about Pakistan recently - or how the Pentagon did not want USAF planes to train with PAF recently during joint exercises..

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## The Eagle

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440428980088172546



What happened to Moroccan order?


----------



## mingle

The Eagle said:


> What happened to Moroccan order?


Still on track probably guy missed it that's why LM opened 2nd line recently quite interesting who is that customer


----------



## Myth_buster_1

Windjammer said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1440428980088172546


Most probably for greek af.


----------



## Primus

ghazi52 said:


> F-16 ADF from No.19 Sqn lining up for take off.
> Sherdils
> 
> 
> View attachment 779134


Can these fire AMRAAMS? I heard they cant


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## MIRauf

Huffal said:


> Can these fire AMRAAMS? I heard they cant


If not mistaken, PAF doesn't have the model of or access to the AIM-120 that these can use. Can't recall the model, it is in one of the post's on this forum.


----------



## Trailer23



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## khanasifm

Paf Adv or 19 sqn amd amraam topic already beaten to death and a
Picture was posted with AMRAAM with Ada hanger I save it but could not find it now on cloud anyway unless someone photoshopped it it’s should kill all rumors it’s somewhere on pdf


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## Imran Khan

Huffal said:


> Can these fire AMRAAMS? I heard they cant


all ADF were converted to carry AIM-120 but we have never seen them loaded with aim -120


----------



## Trailer23

khanasifm said:


> Paf Adv or 19 sqn amd amraam topic already beaten to death and a
> Picture was posted with AMRAAM with Ada hanger I save it but could not find it now on cloud anyway unless someone photoshopped it it’s should kill all rumors it’s somewhere on pdf


As for this image - its 100% Photoshoped as its actually hanging on the A/G pylon.

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## khanasifm

Trailer23 said:


> As for this image - its 100% Photoshoped as its actually hanging on the A/G pylon.
> 
> View attachment 779748​


This is not the image I am referring to 😉


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## Trailer23

khanasifm said:


> This is not the image I am referring to 😉


That is why I stated: _As for this image_


----------



## The Eagle

I think it was shared by @Windjammer as well.


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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer

The Eagle said:


> I think it was shared by @Windjammer as well.







It resembles more with the likes of AGM-88 HARM than anything else.

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## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> As for this image - its 100% Photoshoped as its actually hanging on the A/G pylon.
> 
> View attachment 779748​



Not photoshopped rather a scene from a movie..when I shared this photo on PDF someone said its a dummy missile



Windjammer said:


> View attachment 779860
> 
> It resembles more with the likes of AGM-88 HARM than anything else.
> 
> View attachment 779858


Nowhere near close... that's an AMRAAM for sure but maybe a dummy

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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer

Wear Your Colours With Pride.

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## Raider 21

Not a PAF Viper, but here is a good clip of what the aircraft is capable of in terms of performance and maneuverability.

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## syed_yusuf

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 779860
> 
> It resembles more with the likes of AGM-88 HARM than anything else.
> 
> View attachment 779858


Is that a decoy system in second pic


----------



## jupiter2007

Let me ask our F-16 experts…. Is there a chance for us to get F-16 block 70/72 in the near future, I guess between 2022- 2025?


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## Keysersoze

jupiter2007 said:


> Let me ask our F-16 experts…. Is there a chance for us to get F-16 block 70/72 in the near future, I guess between 2022- 2025?


You would need to speak with the political experts about that one. The only issue was around CMF IIRC now it will be a cost issue.

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## ghazi52

Viper with a diaper bag at Shahbaz post delivery from Fort Worth. From the induction ceremony, circa 2010/2011. 
Nothing beats a clean block 52

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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer



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## Khaqan Humayun

*This is only my views you can add your knowledge.
Is it possible for PAC to rebuild F-16 with Chinese engine and PAC made parts?

What will happen if we put WS 10 or WS 15 engine in F-16?*







*Is it rocket science to make F-16 body parts?*


















*Can we fire PL-15 with F-16?
Chuck Yeager: 1971-73 was in Pakistan
He wrote in his book that PAF engineer are expert in fitting USA made bombs and rocket in Chinese jets F6 aircraft.
Same we can do with other Fighetr jets Buy from Jordan Qatar Egypt and KSA and totly rebuild all these aircraft.
Iran has upgraded its fleet of F-14.
Buy compunents from open Market and give a new life to our Jets.* 





*This F-14 is the combination of Russian and Chinese parts.

F-2 Japan







*


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## jupiter2007

Khaqan Humayun said:


> *This is only my views you can add your knowledge.
> Is it possible for PAC to rebuild F-16 with Chinese engine and PAC made parts?
> 
> What will happen if we put WS 10 or WS 15 engine in F-16?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Is it rocket science to make F-16 body parts?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Can we fire PL-15 with F-16?
> Chuck Yeager: 1971-73 was in Pakistan
> He wrote in his book that PAF engineer are expert in fitting USA made bombs and rocket in Chinese jets F6 aircraft.
> Same we can do with other Fighetr jets Buy from Jordan Qatar Egypt and KSA and totly rebuild all these aircraft.
> Iran has upgraded its fleet of F-14.
> Buy compunents from open Market and give a new life to our Jets.*
> 
> View attachment 784486
> 
> *This F-14 is the combination of Russian and Chinese parts.
> 
> F-2 Japan
> View attachment 784491
> 
> View attachment 784492
> *



Not sure if I should laugh or cry…

We can’t buy used F-16s from xyz country without uncle Sam’s approval and we can’t modify any American product without their approval. 
Our foucus should be JF-17 and AZM project.
Im order to replace older Mirage and F-7s, 
We should be working to increase annual production rate of JF-17 block 3.
Also for future option….we should be working on Block4. I don’t think Pakistan will waiste resources on another 3.5 generation fighter. We should be thinking about 4.5 to 5th generation fighter. Either buy off the shelf or custom build fighter.


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## Raider 21

Khaqan Humayun said:


> *This is only my views you can add your knowledge.
> Is it possible for PAC to rebuild F-16 with Chinese engine and PAC made parts?
> 
> What will happen if we put WS 10 or WS 15 engine in F-16?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Is it rocket science to make F-16 body parts?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Can we fire PL-15 with F-16?
> Chuck Yeager: 1971-73 was in Pakistan
> He wrote in his book that PAF engineer are expert in fitting USA made bombs and rocket in Chinese jets F6 aircraft.
> Same we can do with other Fighetr jets Buy from Jordan Qatar Egypt and KSA and totly rebuild all these aircraft.
> Iran has upgraded its fleet of F-14.
> Buy compunents from open Market and give a new life to our Jets.*
> 
> View attachment 784486
> 
> *This F-14 is the combination of Russian and Chinese parts.
> 
> F-2 Japan
> View attachment 784491
> 
> View attachment 784492
> *


No it is not possible

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## Khaqan Humayun

jupiter2007 said:


> Not sure if I should laugh or cry…
> 
> We can’t buy used F-16s from xyz country without uncle Sam’s approval and we can’t modify any American product without their approval.
> Our foucus should be JF-17 and AZM project.
> Im order to replace older Mirage and F-7s,
> We should be working to increase annual production rate of JF-17 block 3.
> Also for future option….we should be working on Block4. I don’t think Pakistan will waiste resources on another 3.5 generation fighter. We should be thinking about 4.5 to 5th generation fighter. Either buy off the shelf or custom build fighter.



By Upgrading F-16 we can earn good name in Market.
if iraq and other country will contact for MLU with US it will be costly, but if PAC will do this it will be cost effective.

Nither laugh not cry, People used to Laugh when we used to say we will have Pakistan a indepandent country for Muslim,
People used to Laugh when we used to say Pakistan will have Nukes.

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## Khaqan Humayun

Raider 21 said:


> No it is not possible



Not Possible are possible.
20 Years US was in Afghanistan, 300,000/= Afghan Army traind by USA Nato and India, was it possible for Taliban to get back Kabul? No it was not possible as per Media and your advisor but they made it possible.

This is our history we make possible from impossible. 
Islam was in Arab, was it possible for Muslims to take over half of Asia, Africa and some parts of europe?
We did it.


----------



## Raider 21

Khaqan Humayun said:


> Not Possible are possible.
> 20 Years US was in Afghanistan, 300,000/= Afghan Army traind by USA Nato and India, was it possible for Taliban to get back Kabul? No it was not possible as per Media and your advisor but they made it possible.
> 
> This is our history we make possible from impossible.
> Islam was in Arab, was it possible for Muslims to take over half of Asia, Africa and some parts of europe?
> We did it.


Going back to your original question. No it is not possible for PAC Kamra to custom build F-16 engine parts.

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## Khaqan Humayun

Raider 21 said:


> Going back to your original question. No it is not possible for PAC Kamra to custom build F-16 engine parts.



During US sanctions on pakistan 1990 to 2000.
PAC make them fly without US spare Parts How?


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## Raider 21

Khaqan Humayun said:


> During US sanctions on pakistan 1990 to 2000.
> PAC make them fly without US spare Parts How?


Sanctions were in place for new aircraft. Not for spare parts.

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## araz

Khaqan Humayun said:


> During US sanctions on pakistan 1990 to 2000.
> PAC make them fly without US spare Parts How?


Spare parts were acquired from the black market for the 16s. The idea you purport is not possible. Please stop arguing over the subject. There will be huge issues with copyrights, and research into different engines and its impact over the aerodynamics. It is not possible otherwise PAC would have built it-rather than the JFT. Listen to Shahid Lateef's original interviews about the birth of JFT. THE CHINESE TOLD HIM IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR THEM TO MAKE AN AIRCRAFT LIKE THE F16.
A

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## Signalian

Khaqan Humayun said:


> *This is only my views you can add your knowledge.
> Is it possible for PAC to rebuild F-16 with Chinese engine and PAC made parts?
> 
> What will happen if we put WS 10 or WS 15 engine in F-16?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Is it rocket science to make F-16 body parts?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Can we fire PL-15 with F-16?
> Chuck Yeager: 1971-73 was in Pakistan
> He wrote in his book that PAF engineer are expert in fitting USA made bombs and rocket in Chinese jets F6 aircraft.
> Same we can do with other Fighetr jets Buy from Jordan Qatar Egypt and KSA and totly rebuild all these aircraft.
> Iran has upgraded its fleet of F-14.
> Buy compunents from open Market and give a new life to our Jets.*
> 
> View attachment 784486
> 
> *This F-14 is the combination of Russian and Chinese parts.
> 
> F-2 Japan
> View attachment 784491
> 
> View attachment 784492
> *


JF-17 is in service so why modify F-16. The result will be somewhere closer to J-10 or an expensive F-2.

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## Khaqan Humayun

Signalian said:


> JF-17 is in service so why modify F-16. The result will be somewhere closer to J-10 or an expensive F-2.



USAF have F-16 then Why F-18?
They Have F-14 then Why F-15?

Russia Have SU 35 then why Mig 35.

Dear, every aircraft has its own worth, JFT is our backbone but for research and development to teach your Aeronautical students it is best policy to rebuild F-16.

Best example is China J11 J16 F7pg all are copy.
We can change little in canopy or wings this little change will allow us to rebuild according our needs.

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## Signalian

Khaqan Humayun said:


> USAF have F-16 then Why F-18?
> They Have F-14 then Why F-15?
> 
> Russia Have SU 35 then why Mig 35.
> 
> Dear, every aircraft has its own worth, JFT is our backbone but for research and development to teach your Aeronautical students it is best policy to rebuild F-16.
> 
> Best example is China J11 J16 F7pg all are copy.
> We can change little in canopy or wings this little change will allow us to rebuild according our needs.


USAF has Ops all around the world where as PAF's Ops are very limited and incomparable with USAF. Very weak argument.

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## jupiter2007

Khaqan Humayun said:


> USAF have F-16 then Why F-18?
> They Have F-14 then Why F-15?
> 
> Russia Have SU 35 then why Mig 35.
> 
> Dear, every aircraft has its own worth, JFT is our backbone but for research and development to teach your Aeronautical students it is best policy to rebuild F-16.
> 
> Best example is China J11 J16 F7pg all are copy.
> We can change little in canopy or wings this little change will allow us to rebuild according our needs.



1st of all we don’t have expertise in copying aircraft or rebuilding it. 2nd, We can’t modify anything in F-16 without approval of USA. Why can’t you understand that?
USA periodically sends their technical team to monitor our F-16s.

I have a friend who is ex-navy F-18 pilot. Another Friend is ex-Airforce pilot who tested F-35.
F-16 and F-18 are in different weight class and have different role. Same goes for Su-35 and Mig-35, different weight class and different role, SU-35 can carry advance radar and more weapons.

Russian and Chinese relationship is not the same as our with America.
Chinese bought F-7 and Su-27 with ToT and later modify them without approval. If Russia was supper Power, they could have taken China to international court or have imposed strong financial sanctions but Russia didn’t do that.


----------



## m52k85

jupiter2007 said:


> Let me ask our F-16 experts…. Is there a chance for us to get F-16 block 70/72 in the near future, I guess between 2022- 2025?


What do you think?








Pakistan, US may not enjoy same cordial ties they once had: Ambassador Asad Majeed


WASHINGTON: Islamabad and Washington may not enjoy the same close relations they once had in the past, said Pakistan's Ambassador to the United States Asad Majeed Khan Wednesday.Speaking to Geo...




www.thenews.com.pk


----------



## jupiter2007

m52k85 said:


> What do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pakistan, US may not enjoy same cordial ties they once had: Ambassador Asad Majeed
> 
> 
> WASHINGTON: Islamabad and Washington may not enjoy the same close relations they once had in the past, said Pakistan's Ambassador to the United States Asad Majeed Khan Wednesday.Speaking to Geo...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thenews.com.pk



Our relationship is not same as 10 years ago.
I don’t have my contact in Defense attaché in Pakistani Embbacy in DC but I know that we are getting the F-16 parts without any issue. We may not be able to get new aircrafts but USA will continue to support our current F-16s.fleet.


----------



## Raider 21



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## Myth_buster_1

Khaqan Humayun said:


> *This is only my views you can add your knowledge.
> Is it possible for PAC to rebuild F-16 with Chinese engine and PAC made parts?
> 
> What will happen if we put WS 10 or WS 15 engine in F-16?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Is it rocket science to make F-16 body parts?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Can we fire PL-15 with F-16?
> Chuck Yeager: 1971-73 was in Pakistan
> He wrote in his book that PAF engineer are expert in fitting USA made bombs and rocket in Chinese jets F6 aircraft.
> Same we can do with other Fighetr jets Buy from Jordan Qatar Egypt and KSA and totly rebuild all these aircraft.
> Iran has upgraded its fleet of F-14.
> Buy compunents from open Market and give a new life to our Jets.*
> 
> View attachment 784486
> 
> *This F-14 is the combination of Russian and Chinese parts.
> 
> F-2 Japan
> View attachment 784491
> 
> View attachment 784492
> *



U r comparing 1950s technology with 2000s.... things have changed technologically and politically for pakistan.


----------



## Scorpiooo

As Turkey requested new block 70 and V upgrades kits, if this deal materialized. It will positive step and then chances of PAF going for few new block 70/72 and upgrades v standard kits will also increase

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## araz

Scorpiooo said:


> As Turkey requested new block 70 and V upgrades kits, if this deal materialized. It will positive step and then chances of PAF going for few new block 70/72 and upgrades v standard kits will also increase


Turkey and Pakistan's dynamics vis a vis US are different. Turkey is still a NATO partner although it has not seen eye to eye with USA over a couple of issues recently. Pakistan is openly being blamed for US exit from Afghanistan by US officials. Pakistan also is at loggerheads with the US over the coalition support fund money and other moneys which it expects the US to pay and US is openly opposing this. Pakistan's finances will not allow it to get the 5-7 billion dollars it requires to get the 16s and upgrade kits. Lastly the ever present risk of sanctions will not allow PAF to invest that money. So who will give PAakistan th3 interim bridg8ng loan? Please also look at the possible time line for delivery considering 18 months to 2 years for negotiations 3years for delivery plus time for upgrades (another 2-3 years given PAF will not be allowed to upgrade its 16s in house.) Potentially all the C&Ds along with the OCU A and Bs could be upgraded(18 +?14). I think PAF would require 36 new 72s and possibly get some old ones to upgrade(18 more block 42-52)???Overall it could be an ideal solution but the timelines make me think PAF might consider it a bridge too far. 
A

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## Scorpiooo

araz said:


> Turkey and Pakistan's dynamics vis a vis US are different. Turkey is still a NATO partner although it has not seen eye to eye with USA over a couple of issues recently. Pakistan is openly being blamed for US exit from Afghanistan by US officials. Pakistan also is at loggerheads with the US over the coalition support fund money and other moneys which it expects the US to pay and US is openly opposing this. Pakistan's finances will not allow it to get the 5-7 billion dollars it requires to get the 16s and upgrade kits. Lastly the ever present risk of sanctions will not allow PAF to invest that money. So who will give PAakistan th3 interim bridg8ng loan? Please also look at the possible time line for delivery considering 18 months to 2 years for negotiations 3years for delivery plus time for upgrades (another 2-3 years given PAF will not be allowed to upgrade its 16s in house.) Potentially all the C&Ds along with the OCU A and Bs could be upgraded(18 +?14). I think PAF would require 36 new 72s and possibly get some old ones to upgrade(18 more block 42-52)???Overall it could be an ideal solution but the timelines make me think PAF might consider it a bridge too far.
> A


You are totally right, but if Pakistan was able get some deal money during usa exit, that can lead conversion kits or few new jets .. if there was some deal otherwise just dreams ... about kits in updation TAI can be used..

We all know PAF babas love for F16 ... its not going away anywhere in near future


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## araz

Scorpiooo said:


> You are totally right, but if Pakistan was able get some deal money during usa exit, that can lead conversion kits or few new jets .. if there was some deal otherwise just dreams ... about kits in updation TAI can be used..
> 
> We all know PAF babas love for F16 ... its not going away anywhere in near future


Current US fiscal situation will not allow it to hand over the money it owes. US has a history of reneging on its word in any case and Pakistan is no exception to this habit. The more problematic situation is one of sanctions which will not allow us to buy newer planes. I seriously doubt the utility of the 16s in the 2026-28 bracket when they will be delivered if at all. Therein lies our dilemma. The US simply cannot be trusted to deliver on its promises. I think J10 route might be a more realistic one now.
A

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## Reichmarshal

Most of you are unable to separate fact from fiction 
PAF or for that matter any other branch of the Pakistan armed forces does not want to buy any military hardware from the u.s from its own pocket. 
It wants it all under CSF or non nato allies head.

As every thing is avaliable to Pakistan as long as it pays from its own pocket.

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## Scorpiooo

araz said:


> Current US fiscal situation will not allow it to hand over the money it owes. US has a history of reneging on its word in any case and Pakistan is no exception to this habit. The more problematic situation is one of sanctions which will not allow us to buy newer planes. I seriously doubt the utility of the 16s in the 2026-28 bracket when they will be delivered if at all. Therein lies our dilemma. The US simply cannot be trusted to deliver on its promises. I think J10 route might be a more realistic one now.
> A


Yes J10 is much better and reliable option ... American cannot be trusted they can impose sanctions anyway once there interest from Pakistan rolw in Afghanistan goes out.

But problem is that PAF Babas cant think other then F16 (there first love when they were once young) otherwise we should not have waiting for official news related to J10x till date..

They will not stop chasing there dream bird...


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## araz

Scorpiooo said:


> Yes J10 is much better and reliable option ... American cannot be trusted they can impose sanctions anyway once there interest from Pakistan rolw in Afghanistan goes out.
> 
> But problem is that PAF Babas cant think other then F16 (there first love when they were once young) otherwise we should not have waiting for official news related to J10x till date..
> 
> They will not stop chasing there dream bird...


it is a simple problem of a cash strapped force. When you dont have too much money you look to get the best out of the little that you have. PAF has 75 F16s and capacity to maintain 110-120(possibly up to150) platforms. Bang for buck it is the best fighter money can buy with mature weaponry and hardware. Reliability and MTBO are top notch. PAF Babas have gotten a few houses in USA courtesy of Lockmart so that angle is also top notch.. So it is not impossible to see why they want to go for more in case these platforms are offered to them.
As to the J10 the Chinese are only just becoming mature in their technology so PAF is not hesitant in relying on them. We are getting some level of TOT and supply chain remains uninterrupted. PAF will increasingly be reliant on the Chinese for their tip of the spear platforms, while the runners are built in house till we get up to speed
A

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## ghazi52



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## Thorough Pro

F-16 is a ground-based light-medium weight single-engine multirole fighter.
F-18 is a carrier-based platform
F-15 is a ground-based heavyweight air superiority fighter
F-14 was a carrier-based fighter that had been retired for decades and was replaced by F-18 

Re-build F-16 with what? to rebuild you need to replace a whole bunch of parts, where do you get them from?




Khaqan Humayun said:


> USAF have F-16 then Why F-18?
> They Have F-14 then Why F-15?
> 
> Russia Have SU 35 then why Mig 35.
> 
> Dear, every aircraft has its own worth, JFT is our backbone but for research and development to teach your Aeronautical students it is best policy to rebuild F-16.
> 
> Best example is China J11 J16 F7pg all are copy.
> We can change little in canopy or wings this little change will allow us to rebuild according our needs.


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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

An F-16C assigned to the 39th Tactical Wing’s No. 5 ‘Falcons’ Squadron landing at PAF Base Shahbaz, in Jacobabad (Sindh), part of the Southern Air Command,

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## Blacklight

Khaqan Humayun said:


> During US sanctions on pakistan 1990 to 2000.
> PAC make them fly without US spare Parts How?





Raider 21 said:


> Sanctions were in place for new aircraft. Not for spare parts.


We bought from Israel

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## Trailer23

*Q.* Does anyone recall a clip when on one occasion the USAF Pilots flew in some of our Block 52's?

There was a moment in the news clip, the USAF Pilot gets out & is received by one of out Viper Drivers. They exchange Squadron Patches & the USAF points at the new bird & says something like, _"Its yours"_.

Obviously its a pretty old clip that dates back a decade - and i'm not sure which News Channel had aired it back then.

@Windjammer @Hodor


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## siegecrossbow

First of all, *don’t laugh at me*. I’m asking on the behalf of some Chinese military fans. It is a ludicrous question but I promised to get to the bottom of it:

Is there any truth to the rumor that the U.S will sell Pakistan 100 F-16s refurbished from the Aircraft Graveyard in Arizona?


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## mingle

siegecrossbow said:


> First of all, *don’t laugh at me*. I’m asking on the behalf of some Chinese military fans. It is a ludicrous question but I promised to get to the bottom of it:
> 
> Is there any truth to the rumor that the U.S will sell Pakistan 100 F-16s refurbished from the Aircraft Graveyard in Arizona?


So LM closing F16s line??


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## siegecrossbow

mingle said:


> So LM closing F16s line??



I don’t think so. I’m just trying to find out where the rumor originated.


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## mingle

siegecrossbow said:


> I don’t think so. I’m just trying to find out where the rumor originated.


OK for Pakistan old airframes with upgrades to V are good cheap less Congress hassle new ones alot of opposition from house first one needs only secretary of state NOC don't know about rumour if it's true PAF will take as many as they can

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## araz

siegecrossbow said:


> First of all, *don’t laugh at me*. I’m asking on the behalf of some Chinese military fans. It is a ludicrous question but I promised to get to the bottom of it:
> 
> Is there any truth to the rumor that the U.S will sell Pakistan 100 F-16s refurbished from the Aircraft Graveyard in Arizona?


The number of 100 itself seems unreliable. PAF has a capacity for 150 air frames. Now unless we are doing a "Mirage" on the 16s by buying old airframes from all over the world it does not seem plausible. Secondly we will need to buy upgrade kits which will be 20 mllion a pop for 52 standard which currently seems implausible. Lastly why would the US lose its old planes when they can just sell new ones to us? Lastly current US Pak relations are not the best so it seems even more unlikely. 
As ststed earlier I have no links inside Pakistan to confirm or deny the rumour. But it seems unlikely. @Blacklight might be the person to talk to if he wants to spill some beans😁😄🤣

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## Blacklight

araz said:


> The number of 100 itself seems unreliable. PAF has a capacity for 150 air frames. Now unless we are doing a "Mirage" on the 16s by buying old airframes from all over the world it does not seem plausible. Secondly we will need to buy upgrade kits which will be 20 mllion a pop for 52 standard which currently seems implausible. Lastly why would the US lose its old planes when they can just sell new ones to us? Lastly current US Pak relations are not the best so it seems even more unlikely.
> As ststed earlier I have no links inside Pakistan to confirm or deny the rumour. But it seems unlikely. @Blacklight might be the person to talk to if he wants to spill some beans😁😄🤣


Today is soup day, I need all the beans I can get

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## ARMalik

siegecrossbow said:


> Is there any truth to the rumor that the U.S will sell Pakistan 100 F-16s refurbished from the Aircraft Graveyard in Arizona?



Well all these rumor MONGERING started when a X-Member on PDF called Khafee claimed, and still claims, that PAF was getting dozens and dozens of new and refurb F-16s from the US and this was ALL being done in *SECRET.* Even today on his website the discussion is about *NEW F-16s landing in Pakistan as WE SPEAK !*

I guess this is when some of the members just started making wild theories including the grave yard of Arizona. *ONLY TIME WILL TELL if there is any truth to this or not. *

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## HRK

siegecrossbow said:


> First of all, *don’t laugh at me*. I’m asking on the behalf of some Chinese military fans. It is a ludicrous question but I promised to get to the bottom of it:
> 
> Is there any truth to the rumor that the U.S will sell Pakistan 100 F-16s refurbished from the Aircraft Graveyard in Arizona?


no report in this regards 

secondly there are very few airframe with PW engine are available which Pakistan use in its F-16, so it is is difficult to assume that US would sell 100s of used F-16 to Pakistan.

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## araz

Blacklight said:


> Today is soup day, I need all the beans I can get


So in short you are not spilling any? A lot of people retain their importance by picking up crumbs from here and there. Please be charitable😀😃😇😅
A

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## The Eagle

araz said:


> So in short you are not spilling any? A lot of people retain their importance by picking up crumbs from her and there. Please be charitable😀😃😇😅
> A



Sir,

An old dilemma of open forum like once a member choose to talk like that and everyone almost gone crazy for months or even an year but nothing comes out of it except that, the way I see, could have been more harmful and provide enough time for sabotage. Given the Rumor based question by @siegecrossbow I don't see any spark for the same.

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## araz

The Eagle said:


> Sir,
> 
> An old dilemma of open forum like once a member choose to talk like that and everyone almost gone crazy for months or even an year but nothing comes out of it except that, the way I see, could have been more harmful and provide enough time for sabotage. Given the Rumor based question by @siegecrossbow I don't see any spark for the same.


We have lost a tank deal due to someone talking a bit too soon. A PN guy was CMed for talking on the open forum. So I am well aware of the dangers of open fora and loose talk. My advantage is I dont know anything at all, so I can, in true Pakistani fashion opine on anything and everything!!!!😆😅
A

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## Viper27

ARMalik said:


> Well all these rumor MONGERING started when a X-Member on PDF called Khafee claimed, and still claims, that PAF was getting dozens and dozens of new and refurb F-16s from the US and this was ALL being done in *SECRET.* Even today on his website the discussion is about *NEW F-16s landing in Pakistan as WE SPEAK !*
> 
> I guess this is when some of the members just started making wild theories including the grave yard of Arizona. *ONLY TIME WILL TELL if there is any truth to this or not. *



If you’ve been following his posts you should have realised by now that he’s “landed” practically every jet in existence around the world apart from F-22 at a “secret” PAF airbase that no one knows about.

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## Blacklight

Viper27 said:


> If you’ve been following his posts you should have realised by now that he’s “landed” practically every jet in existence around the world apart from F-22 at a “secret” PAF airbase that no one knows about.



What I dont get is, why are people listening to him? There is only one base, from which Blk70/72's can operate due to TST. 

What is that base's feedback?
So many people here claim insider knowledge, but no definitive clarity, why?

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## SQ8

Blacklight said:


> What I dont get is, why are people listening to him? There is only one base, from which Blk70/72's can operate due to TST.
> 
> What is that base's feedback?
> So many people here claim insider knowledge, but no definitive clarity, why?


Part of it has to do with sources. Many folks rely on their chacha mama cousin drawing room or whatsapp links to ask things and then shoot it here. However, it is likely who they are asking might be in uniform or not but has no true idea themselves. An Army Tanker(not the DHA type :p ) is likely no better informed on the Jinnah Class than anyone else here looking at public information. Same way a PAF Casa sq pilot is not the best informed person on whether a J-10C is currently undertaking operational tests or not at Sargodha.

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## kursed

araz said:


> We have lost a tank deal due to someone talking a bit too soon. A PN guy was CMed for talking on the open forum. So I am well aware of the dangers of open fora and loose talk. My advantage is I dont know anything at all, so I can, in true Pakistani fashion opine on anything and everything!!!!😆😅
> A


PAF lost an HMD deal for the JF program, due to people disclosing information way too soon. Indians grabbed on to info, lobbied against it.

Loose lips, sink ships is as true today as it was before. There's a reason why PAF, PN, and now increasingly PA maintain strict silence around all deals, and you only see them materialize overnight. This is because they've been burnt a few times.

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## Bratva

kursed said:


> *PAF lost an HMD deal for the JF program, due to people disclosing information way too soon. Indians grabbed on to info, lobbied against it.*
> 
> Loose lips, sink ships is as true today as it was before. There's a reason why PAF, PN, and now increasingly PA maintain strict silence around all deals, and you only see them materialize overnight. This is because they've been burnt a few times.



I remember someone disclosed that info here in PDF-Airforce section. His posts are still available. He disclosed Pakistan looking for french HMD.



Gallium Nitride said:


> @MiG-35-BD PAF will induct these prototypes of JF-17B, but these are mainly for export. Countries like Myanmar, Senegal and Nigeria need these for training purpose. This year PAC will produce 12 additional JF-17A Block IIs in supplement production so PAF will have 62 Block IIAs, Block III's final contract is about to be signed in a few weeks.
> What I know about Block III, mentioned is the Thales Scorpion HMD, AESA Radar either from NRIET or J-10C's Wushi AESA. Block IIIB will be similar to this B prototype while Block IIIA will have redesigning. And good news is that the powerplant is not RD-93 (Not sure which one but will let you know soon).



You can't equate people disclosing info about HMD with deal being killed. As India had already signed Rafale deal with french and it was obvious they not gonna let PAF get their hands on HMD in any way.

Just as French didn't supply avionics for Block-2 because of Money, The HMD deal was killed because of Money. Indian Money, as simple as that.

PAF, PN, PA whenever relied on American, French or any Non-reliable resource. It always got burnt. It was denied AH-1z, Engines for turkish helicopters, F-16's. JF-17 block 2 avionics, HMD. Were these deals ever disclosed beforehand? No.

While Whatever PA, PN, PAF buys from Italy, china and turkey. They remain so tight lip about it that as if they are buying UFO's.These are the deals that will never be killed. And Irony is It is turkish and Italian or Chinese who inform Pakistani Public Pakistani that their armed forces are buying this kind of stuff.

You were one of the initials one who informed about J-10 C, does that deal get killed?

That Russian PANTSIR deal fell through, was it due to Loose lips sink ships?


One might say, UAE was actively working against pakistan and awarding modi with gold medals in 2019. Hence they leaked the news of F-16's and tried actively to kill the Pakistani Deal with Americans. You see other can play the devil's advocate as well. !

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## Bratva

Blacklight said:


> What I dont get is, why are people listening to him? There is only one base, from which Blk70/72's can operate due to TST.
> 
> What is that base's feedback?
> So many people here claim insider knowledge, but no definitive clarity, why?



Group Captain Noman Khan & Wing Commandar Hassan Sidduiqi are still flying block-15's while the Block-52's base where JF-17 Squadron will be moved or in process of getting moved not gonna be getting any Block 70/72 or V's either . So is someone gonna get more reliable than Noman and Hassan when they say there are no Block-70/72 landing/landed or will be landing in Pakistan and there are disinfo agents in the garb of Friends who are spreading disinfo and wants to kill any talks with America regarding this?

Edit: WC Noman Khan has been promoted to GC

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## Bratva

Blacklight said:


> In the last 2yrs Hassan was out of Pak for 6mnths in on stretch and then a couple more mnths in another. Can you tell me where, and what, he was doing?



Did it result in a DSCA Notification for V upgrades for PAF F-16 or buying of new F-16?

Let me put it in another way. In last 2 years The visits of Hassan can easily be explained as it coincides with this timeline of


DECEMBER 20, 2019 4:01 AMUPDATED 2 YEARS AGO
*U.S. to resume military training program for Pakistan: State Department*

International Military Education and Training Program, or IMET - for more than a decade a pillar of U.S.-Pakistani military ties - underscores warming relations that have followed meetings this year between U.S. President Donald Trump and Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan.









U.S. to resume military training program for Pakistan: State Department


The Trump administration has approved a resumption of Pakistan's participation in a coveted U.S. military training and educational program more than a year after it was suspended, the State Department said on Thursday.




www.reuters.com






But but Pakistan paid 150 Million for an enhanced TST program back in 2019 that coincide with Hassan and other PAF guys visit to America in the same time frame of 2019-2020.

*DRUM ROLE*.... There is an actual DSCA notification for Enhanced TST for PAF F-16

*PAKISTAN – TECHNICAL SECURITY TEAM (TST) IN CONTINUED SUPPORT OF THE F-16 PROGRAM*





__





Pakistan – Technical Security Team (TST) in Continued Support of the F-16 Program | Defense Security Cooperation Agency







www.dsca.mil






And there is a strong chance... *Another DRUM ROLE* America complained to Pakistan about F-16 Misuse hence enhanced TST program for PAF F-16's
*State Department Reprimanded Pakistan for Misusing F-16s, Document Shows*

A State Department letter details American concerns about how Pakistan fielded fighter jets after a skirmish with India over Kashmir.

By Paul D. Shinkman
|
Dec. 11, 2019, at 5:54 p.m.


> Thompson, a career military intelligence officer who first entered the administration as Vice President Mike Pence's national security adviser, admonished Pakistan in the letter for having "relocated, maintained and operated" the American made F-16s and the AMRAAM missiles they use from forward operating bases not approved under the original terms of the sale. The former Army colonel, who left the White House in September, also expressed concern at the access Pakistani officials allowed American weapons inspectors
> https://www.usnews.com/news/world/a...-indias-revoking-of-special-status-in-context
> "While we understand from you that these aircraft movements were done in support of national defense objectives," Thompson wrote in the letter, "the U.S. government considers the relocation of aircraft to non-U.S. government authorized bases concerning and inconsistent with the F-16 Letter of Offer and Acceptance."
> 
> "Such actions could subject sensitive U.S.-technologies to diversion to or access by third parties, and could undermine our shared security platforms and infrastructures," Thompson wrote.
> 
> A flare-up in military tensions between Pakistan and India began in mid-February, after a Pakistani militant group claimed credit for a suicide bombing in Kashmir that killed 40 Indian security personnel. India has consistently claimed that Pakistan uses militants to destabilize the region, which Pakistan and India have each claimed since they were separated by partition in 1947.
> 
> The subsequent tensions escalated as both countries deployed fighter jets, and in one dogfight an Indian plane was shot down. Its pilot landed in Pakistani territory and was imprisoned until his release in March. On Feb. 28, the Indian government presented evidence it says showed Pakistani jets fired AMRAAM missiles at the Indian planes.
> 
> The Pakistani armed forces possess 76 American-supplied F-16s – by far the most potent fighter jet in its military arsenal. Pakistan first began receiving the plane in 1982 and maintains them under strict rules imposed by the State Department, the Department of Defense and Congress. Among the rules are that Islamabad may only house the fighters and the corresponding American missiles on two specific air force bases at Mushaf and Shahbaz and that it only uses them for counter-terror operations, not against foreign countries.
> 
> The agreement for their sale and subsequent operation, governed in part by the State Department's Defense Security Cooperation Agency, also stipulates that American contractors and mechanics must have access to the jets at any time of day or night both to help maintain them and to monitor how the Pakistani military employs them.
> 
> The agency in July – weeks before Thompson's letter – re-approved the terms for these monitors, known as Technical Security Teams, at a cost of $125 million.
> "This proposed sale will support the foreign policy and national security of the United States by protecting U.S. technology through the continued presence of U.S. personnel that provide 24/7 end-use monitoring," the agency wrote in a statement announcing the renewed contract, which must receive congressional approval.
> 
> Those who track aerial combat in the region and the weapons used for it aren't surprised that Pakistan would risk being caught violating its agreement with the U.S. when it regards an issue as hotly contested as Kashmir.
> 
> "Given how volatile the situation was, it was important for both sides not to lose face in getting their plane shot down," says Karl Kaltenthaler, a professor at the University of Akron. "It makes sense that Pakistan would do that, but it was at the potential cost of getting called out by the U.S. for using the weapons platform that way. For the Pakistanis, this is how they operate."
> In her letter, Thompson raised concerns about American access to the bases and the U.S.-made equipment there. She said it had been four years since Office of Defense Representative–Pakistan – the office that carries out defense cooperation with partner countries – had been allowed to perform an assessment of the security vulnerabilities on the Pakistani bases.



These are the facts on ground Hassan or Noman will acknowledge with ease. You are welcome to verify the chain of events from them while they will be more than welcome to debunk those "Already Landed New/used/Block70-72/V-Upgrades of F-16 for PAF" by the disinfo agents who are trying hard to scuttle any new F-16 deal with America by leaking news so Pakistan enemies can lobby hard in advance to block any attempt from Pakistan

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## MastanKhan

Blacklight said:


> What I dont get is, why are people listening to him? There is only one base, from which Blk70/72's can operate due to TST.
> 
> What is that base's feedback?
> *So many people here claim insider knowledge, but no definitive clarity, why*?



Hi,

Even after the news of the video game player leaking secrets---if you are still asking this question---then you don't seem to be too intelligent---clever thought you maybe.

Video game players were like most members on sinodef forum---know al lot but know nothing except for the few---.

The truth is here on the forum---. But you ought to have the intellect and the knowledge base to know and separate the fact from fiction---.

The truth won't be served on a platter---.

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## kursed

@Bratva There was never a deal with the Americans for F-16s, the news that was doing rounds of this forum was concocted by some people who wanted to see how far it goes and who falls for it.

OTOH, the HMD deal I’m referring to had nothing to do with France. And it wasn’t France that killed the deal.

As for the 10C deal, by the time I talked about it, it was long debated, signed and decided for. No one is stopping it.

And this is what I think about leaks:








New fighter for PAF Doctrine?


So it will require Quwa premium membership to read it? :-) Nope. It's a non-subscription article / analysis. So it's technically available to all. If you find it, you'll know something really cool about the PAF's air defence system.



defence.pk





Everything that I opt to talk about is either already being talked about PAF brass itself, or they’re dropping hints about it all over the place.

I don’t discuss undisclosed stuff. Or things that they really want to hide.


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## mingle

kursed said:


> PAF lost an HMD deal for the JF program, due to people disclosing information way too soon. Indians grabbed on to info, lobbied against it.
> 
> Loose lips, sink ships is as true today as it was before. There's a reason why PAF, PN, and now increasingly PA maintain strict silence around all deals, and you only see them materialize overnight. This is because they've been burnt a few times.


Make sense


----------



## StructE

US nearing a formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace to carry out military operations in Afghanistan - CNNPolitics 

(CNN)The Biden administration has told lawmakers that the US is nearing a formalized agreement with Pakistan for use of its airspace to conduct military and intelligence operations in Afghanistan, according to three sources familiar with the details of a classified briefing with members of Congress that took place on Friday morning.
Pakistan has expressed a desire to sign a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) in exchange for assistance with its own counterterrorism efforts and help in managing the relationship with India, one of the sources said. But the negotiations are ongoing, another source said, and the terms of the agreement, which has not been finalized, could still change.

Well looks like Block 72 are still an option.

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## HRK

StructE said:


> US nearing a formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace to carry out military operations in Afghanistan - CNNPolitics
> 
> (CNN)The Biden administration has told lawmakers that the US is nearing a formalized agreement with Pakistan for use of its airspace to conduct military and intelligence operations in Afghanistan, according to three sources familiar with the details of a classified briefing with members of Congress that took place on Friday morning.
> Pakistan has expressed a desire to sign a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) in exchange for assistance with its own counterterrorism efforts and help in managing the relationship with India, one of the sources said. But the negotiations are ongoing, another source said, and the terms of the agreement, which has not been finalized, could still change.
> 
> Well looks like Block 72 are still an option.


It is related to the formalization of the facility already available to US, and formal agreement is necessary for the continuation of this facility.

As of now no agreement is reached and negotiation is still ongoing, as could be observed by the number of visits of US officials to Pakistan.

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## Blacklight

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Even after the news of the video game player leaking secrets---if you are still asking this question---then you don't seem to be too intelligent---clever thought you maybe.
> 
> Video game players were like most members on sinodef forum---know al lot but know nothing except for the few---.
> 
> The truth is here on the forum---. But you ought to have the intellect and the knowledge base to know and separate the fact from fiction---.
> 
> The truth won't be served on a platter---.


Not after the truth, just letting some idiots expose themselves, all on their own.

After all time has a good habit of clearing things up.

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## Trailer23

Viper27 said:


> If you’ve been following his posts you should have realised by now that he’s “landed” practically every jet in existence around the world apart from F-22 at a “secret” PAF airbase that no one knows about.


I've already been ridiculed by certain individuals - so I got no reservations on speaking up.

Its quite ingenious, if you give it a thought. Everytime something starts lose momentum, you feed it a lil' extra just to keep going - further.


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## Viper27

Blacklight said:


> What I dont get is, why are people listening to him? There is only one base, from which Blk70/72's can operate due to TST.
> 
> What is that base's feedback?
> So many people here claim insider knowledge, but no definitive clarity, why?



Because hope is a dangerous thing. It makes one see stuff that isn’t there. Just like I always saw Iman Ali as my future wife. She ended up getting married on my birthday but I still refuse to lose hope. Same thing with the Block 70 rumours!

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## The Eagle

Blacklight said:


> What I dont get is, why are people listening to him?



Enthusiasm, curiosity and above all, sometimes Forum Labels too. It is like, if I know the art to create a story which may resemble to emotions in real time; can get the most attention as compare to any harsh truth out there. This is all about how good you are to fool a fan/enthusiast.


Blacklight said:


> Not after the truth, just letting some idiots expose themselves, all on their own.



Nobody is an idiot as far as none of them shares some crucial information. Such provocative remarks, are definitely like one being pushed to spill it all over the place.

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## Bratva

The Eagle said:


> Enthusiasm, curiosity and above all, sometimes Forum Labels too. It is like, if I know the art to create a story which may resemble to emotions in real time; can get the most attention as compare to any harsh truth out there. This is all about how good you are to fool a fan/enthusiast.
> 
> 
> Nobody is an idiot as far as none of them shares some crucial information. Such provocative remarks, are definitely like one being pushed to spill it all over the place.




Whole saga summed up in few memes cuz as someone said, ultimately the idiots will be exposed in end who are landing F-16 right left up and down in secret base controlled by J.I Joe team lol

Giving hope to people for F-16









After few months, People will be told to cope as NO F-16 coming cuz America denied Pakistan and asked Pakistan to return all the F-16 from secret Airbases where TST is based lol

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## The Eagle

Bratva said:


> Whole saga summed up in few memes cuz as someone said, ultimately the idiots will be exposed in end who are landing F-16 right left up and right in secret base controlled by J.I Joe team lol
> 
> Giving hope to people for F-16
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After few months, People will be told to cope as NO F-16 coming cuz America denied Pakistan and asked Pakistan to return all the F-16 from secret Airbases where TST is based lol



In the back drop, not saying that there was something but indeed if there were talks, the needed damage is already done while fans only call it just another bad day. That was on a serious note.

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## ARMalik

StructE said:


> US nearing a formal agreement to use Pakistan's airspace to carry out military operations in Afghanistan - CNNPolitics
> 
> (CNN)The Biden administration has told lawmakers that the US is nearing a formalized agreement with Pakistan for use of its airspace to conduct military and intelligence operations in Afghanistan, according to three sources familiar with the details of a classified briefing with members of Congress that took place on Friday morning.
> Pakistan has expressed a desire to sign a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) in exchange for assistance with its own counterterrorism efforts and help in managing the relationship with India, one of the sources said. But the negotiations are ongoing, another source said, and the terms of the agreement, which has not been finalized, could still change.
> 
> Well looks like Block 72 are still an option.



Please stop spreading these Fake tales from the US. These people are just disgusting and have no shame specially when openly told by the PM that no such bases will be given. So unless someone like Bajwa has bypassed the government AGAIN, which he has shown time and time again that he is perfectly capable of doing, and has total disregards for the Government.









'No such understanding in place': FO on report claiming US nearing deal to use Pakistan's airspace


FO issues measured response to CNN report, says the two countries have a "longstanding cooperation" and engage regularly.



www.dawn.com





*'No such understanding in place': FO on report claiming US nearing deal to use Pakistan's airspace*


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## Yasser76

As Denmark, Netherlands, Norway and Belgium all induct F-35 now is time to get as many used F-16 airframes as possible (like we did with Mirages), all of the Euro ones are MLU'd. Lets not order anything from Yanks just get them to clear these sales and engines for T129, we know we cannot trust them but worth getting another 40-60 used Vipers if we can.

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## Cookie Monster

Yasser76 said:


> As Denmark, Netherlands, Norway and Belgium all induct F-35 now is time to get as many used F-16 airframes as possible (like we did with Mirages), all of the Euro ones are MLU'd. Lets not order anything from Yanks just get them to clear these sales and engines for T129, we know we cannot trust them but worth getting another 40-60 used Vipers if we can.


Considering how capable the Block 70 is...if PAF is gonna inevitably go after F16 knowing full well the strings attached and the threat of sanctions...then might as well upgrade to Block 70 IMO.
India isn't about to field a 5th gen anytime soon...and Block 70 can go toe to toe with Rafale(currently the latest IAF fighter jet..and the best they are going to have for at least the next decade).

Otherwise...if the PAF is to turn away from American products bcuz of a rocky relationship...then no point in acquiring anymore...even older blocks. Might as well concentrate all those efforts into JF17 or J10 or Azm NGF.

If the risk is all the same...why half *** it? When we can full *** it with that same risk?

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## untitled

Yasser76 said:


> As Denmark, Netherlands, Norway and Belgium all induct F-35 now is time to get as many used F-16 airframes as possible


The Americans still have a say even in the second hand F-16 market. We even failed to acquire the second hand Egyptian Mirage 3s. What chance do F-16s have?

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## khanasifm

untitled said:


> The Americans still have a say even in the second hand F-16 market. We even failed to acquire the second hand Egyptian Mirage 3s. What chance do F-16s have?



All Oem countries have say in their product 😉

what’s new

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## Yasser76

untitled said:


> The Americans still have a say even in the second hand F-16 market. We even failed to acquire the second hand Egyptian Mirage 3s. What chance do F-16s have?



I realise this, I was referring to the possibility that if we sign an air corridor agreement this is something we can possibly negotiate

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## Akh1112

ARMalik said:


> Please stop spreading these Fake tales from the US. These people are just disgusting and have no shame specially when openly told by the PM that no such bases will be given. So unless someone like Bajwa has bypassed the government AGAIN, which he has shown time and time again that he is perfectly capable of doing, and has total disregards for the Government.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'No such understanding in place': FO on report claiming US nearing deal to use Pakistan's airspace
> 
> 
> FO issues measured response to CNN report, says the two countries have a "longstanding cooperation" and engage regularly.
> 
> 
> 
> www.dawn.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *'No such understanding in place': FO on report claiming US nearing deal to use Pakistan's airspace*




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1451844285817577472

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## Imran Khan

as soon as US need anything form pakistan F-16 fanboys start chanting we need block=70

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## m52k85

Im more interested in second hand missiles than in second hand jets. If they can work with old Canadian Hornets, can work with Block-52s as well, will keep our MLUs and Block-52s relevant into the 2030s:









Canada May Buy AIM-120D Missiles That Outrange Its CF-18's Radar's Reach


A fighter needs an AESA radar to get the most out of the AIM-120D, something Canada's Hornets don't have.




www.thedrive.com





Though, even USAF F-16s squadrons havent received 120ds to my knowledge, and will likely not receive them since production of AMRAAMs is trailing in favour of JATM.


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## ghazi52

Only Stars shine in Darkness - 
Photo by Rehan Waheed

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## Scorpiooo

SQ8 said:


> Part of it has to do with sources. Many folks rely on their chacha mama cousin drawing room or whatsapp links to ask things and then shoot it here. However, it is likely who they are asking might be in uniform or not but has no true idea themselves. An Army Tanker(not the DHA type :p ) is likely no better informed on the Jinnah Class than anyone else here looking at public information. Same way a PAF Casa sq pilot is not the best informed person on whether a J-10C is currently undertaking operational tests or not at Sargodha.


Kuch kaha bhee aur sub kuch keh bhee giaa 


Blacklight said:


> What I dont get is, why are people listening to him? There is only one base, from which Blk70/72's can operate due to TST.
> 
> What is that base's feedback?
> So many people here claim insider knowledge, but no definitive clarity, why?


What is the name of that base


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## m52k85

Scorpiooo said:


> What is the name of that base


Shahbaz


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## Dreamer.

araz said:


> We have lost a tank deal due to someone talking a bit too soon. A PN guy was CMed for talking on the open forum. So I am well aware of the dangers of open fora and loose talk. My advantage is I dont know anything at all, so I can, in true Pakistani fashion opine on anything and everything!!!!😆😅
> A


Which tank deal are you referring to?


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## Windjammer

Hi Viz coveralls for operations over the ocean.

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## Windjammer

*It is said that when PAF Vipers are patrolling near and around the LOC, the airspace on the other side becomes totally vacant.*

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## Trailer23

Armed to the Teeth.
4 - AMRAAMs
2 - Sidewinders

What kind of poor soul would wanna go up against that?

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## ghazi52

What you find by looking in the eyes of a Lion?

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## Blacklight

ghazi52 said:


> *What you find by looking in the eyes of a Lion?*
> 
> 
> View attachment 788601


Kabhi khushboo lagakay aoo na ?

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## Scorpiooo

Note : Not belong to PAF. just Sharing beautiful picture of beautiful bird

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## Signalian

siegecrossbow said:


> Is there any truth to the rumor that the U.S will sell Pakistan 100 F-16s refurbished from the Aircraft Graveyard in Arizona?


Probably try to get replacement losses for older F-16s and the 18 new ones that were an option in the package.


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## Reichmarshal

i think we have been stabbed in the back by the u.s again.


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## HRK

Reichmarshal said:


> i think we have been stabbed in the back by the u.s again.


plz elebrote ... ???


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## Scorpiooo

Signalian said:


> Probably try to get replacement losses for older F-16s and the 18 new ones that were an option in the package.


F16 is not going to out of pictures easily for PAF


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## Reichmarshal

HRK said:


> plz elebrote ... ???


after putting a few things together I have come to the conclusion that I have stated above

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## HRK

Reichmarshal said:


> after putting a few things together I have come to the conclusion that I have stated above


is it related to spare parts and maintenance ... ???


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## Reichmarshal

HRK said:


> is it related to spare parts and maintenance ... ???


as always it starts small but eventually, it becomes all-encompassing. having said that at this point there are no issues with spares or maintenance. 
i think PAF has an inkling of this as well which can be seen with the level of PAF inventory, they can last a long time without external help.

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## Scorpiooo

Reichmarshal said:


> as always it starts small but eventually, it becomes all-encompassing. having said that at this point there are no issues with spares or maintenance.
> i think PAF has an inkling of this as well which can be seen with the level of PAF inventory, they can last a long time without external help.


Turkish can be used , in case of spares parts limitations by American

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## Reichmarshal

Scorpiooo said:


> Turkish can be used , in case of spares parts limitations by American


things are not as bad as in the 90 as back then only OEM parts were available.


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## Scorpiooo

Reichmarshal said:


> things are not as bad as in the 90 as back then only OEM parts were available.


Yes agree, alot spares F16s will available in coming years for Nato countries moving to F35


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## Yasser76

Reichmarshal said:


> as always it starts small but eventually, it becomes all-encompassing. having said that at this point there are no issues with spares or maintenance.
> i think PAF has an inkling of this as well which can be seen with the level of PAF inventory, they can last a long time without external help.



I'm not so sure, does seem US is still enabling F-16 support contracts as recently as last week and last month 









Contracts for October 27, 2021


Today's Defense Department contracts valued at $7.5 million or more are now live on Defense.gov.



www.defense.gov













Contracts for September 23, 2021


Today's Defense Department contracts valued at $7.5 million or more are now live on Defense.gov.



www.defense.gov





Also more Sniper pods on the way. I would think they will have to do the very minimum to support PAF F-16 fleet, especially consideirng air corridor agreements.US and Pak Mil are still engaging with each other too. 

Also helps PAF that Turks have a 230 plus F-16 fleet. Spares can easily have a way of finding themselves to Pakistan and this is not the military or diplomatic leverage it once was consideiring JF-17, HQ-9 and possibly J-10 on the way. 

It's clear PAF has no interest in obtaining major equipment direct from US but game for surplus F-16s via third parties is certainly on.


Scorpiooo said:


> Turkish can be used , in case of spares parts limitations by American



Lots of countries can help out Pak with a few spares if we need favours.

Turks, Jordanians, Indonesians, Iraqis we have good relationship with, at a push even maybe UAE, Morrocco, Egypt


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

The issue with the PAF's F-16s aren't spare parts, but aircraft age. Our A/B airframes are reaching the end of their OEM-specified lifecycles, and there's no additional SLEP available for those specific aircraft. However, there's a 6,000 hour SLEP available for F-16C/Ds, so our Block-52+ can kick around for a while. Likewise, if the PAF can get used F-16C/Ds, they can apply the SLEP to those and keep them in the air for 15-20 years. Ideally, it could also apply an F-16V-type upgrade to around 54-72 F-16C/Ds (18 PAF birds plus 36-54 used C/Ds).

Unfortunately, Pakistan is in the darkest timeline in that the US isn't going to let a single one of these used or surplus airframes go to the PAF. Basically, think of the "easy, sensible solution" (like buying and upgrading used F-16s or C-130s), and now accept, "not going to happen." We're in *that* situation. Uncle Sam has gone desi uncle on us @JamD

If this predicament continues, then in time, the PAF's F-16C/Ds will be the only F-16s in service. By the 2040s, I'm sure the F-16A/Bs will be gone, especially if an NGFA comes online (e.g., the TFX, which Turkey is developing to replace the F-16). Tbh by that point, I'd just allocate all of the C/Ds to an elite DACT unit. The way the PAF is moving, unless an F-16V-type upgrade is available to us, the F-16s will be stone-walled from our next-gen interoperability stack, munitions stack, etc.

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The issue with the PAF's F-16s aren't spare parts, but aircraft age. Our A/B airframes are reaching the end of their OEM-specified lifecycles, and there's no additional SLEP available for those specific aircraft. However, there's a 6,000 hour SLEP available for F-16C/Ds, so our Block-52+ can kick around for a while. Likewise, if the PAF can get used F-16C/Ds, they can apply the SLEP to those and keep them in the air for 15-20 years. Ideally, it could also apply an F-16V-type upgrade to around 54-72 F-16C/Ds (18 PAF birds plus 36-54 used C/Ds).
> 
> Unfortunately, Pakistan is in the darkest timeline in that the US isn't going to let a single one of these used or surplus airframes go to the PAF. Basically, think of the "easy, sensible solution" (like buying and upgrading used F-16s or C-130s), and now accept, "not going to happen." We're in *that* situation. Uncle Sam has gone desi uncle on us @JamD
> 
> If this predicament continues, then in time, the PAF's F-16C/Ds will be the only F-16s in service. By the 2040s, I'm sure the F-16A/Bs will be gone, especially if an NGFA comes online (e.g., the TFX, which Turkey is developing to replace the F-16). Tbh by that point, I'd just allocate all of the C/Ds to an elite DACT unit. The way the PAF is moving, unless an F-16V-type upgrade is available to us, the F-16s will be stone-walled from our next-gen interoperability stack, munitions stack, etc.


How much life left in PAF 16 A/B ?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Scorpiooo said:


> How much life left in PAF 16 A/B ?


They can go up to 8,000 hours. I don't know how much is left. But I don't think we'll see them in 2040. IMO, the TFX or J-21/XY will replace them by then.

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> They can go up to 8,000 hours. I don't know how much is left. But I don't think we'll see them in 2040. IMO, the TFX or J-21/XY will replace them by then.


So there max will be around 2030s , 

V standard can't be applied on them ? To increase life 12000 hrs


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Scorpiooo said:


> So there max will be around 2030s ,
> 
> V standard can't be applied on them ? To increase life 12000 hrs


I think Taiwan was looking into it for their A/Bs, but it doesn't seem they're moving towards it. In all likelihood, they'll probably replace their old F-16 fleet with new F-16s and pursue the F-35 and/or develop their own next-gen fighter instead.


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## araz

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> They can go up to 8,000 hours. I don't know how much is left. But I don't think we'll see them in 2040. IMO, the TFX or J-21/XY will replace them by then.


We do have the OCUs which when bought had very little time on the air frames so they can soldier on. However I fully agree that the original 32 plus the 13 from Jordan will be gone in the not so distant future. Ifully agree that US Pak relationship is currently not conducive to PAF getting any more airframes. However support and spares will continue. Ialso see your point regarding getting C&Ds. However if the US is not playing ball then this discussion also remains academic. There was talk in the 2008 period of US agreeing to part with some 40/42 and
30/32. PAF did not want them and concentrated on picking up the A&Bs from Jordan.
A

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## Yasser76

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The issue with the PAF's F-16s aren't spare parts, but aircraft age. Our A/B airframes are reaching the end of their OEM-specified lifecycles, and there's no additional SLEP available for those specific aircraft. However, there's a 6,000 hour SLEP available for F-16C/Ds, so our Block-52+ can kick around for a while. Likewise, if the PAF can get used F-16C/Ds, they can apply the SLEP to those and keep them in the air for 15-20 years. Ideally, it could also apply an F-16V-type upgrade to around 54-72 F-16C/Ds (18 PAF birds plus 36-54 used C/Ds).
> 
> Unfortunately, Pakistan is in the darkest timeline in that the US isn't going to let a single one of these used or surplus airframes go to the PAF. Basically, think of the "easy, sensible solution" (like buying and upgrading used F-16s or C-130s), and now accept, "not going to happen." We're in *that* situation. Uncle Sam has gone desi uncle on us @JamD
> 
> If this predicament continues, then in time, the PAF's F-16C/Ds will be the only F-16s in service. By the 2040s, I'm sure the F-16A/Bs will be gone, especially if an NGFA comes online (e.g., the TFX, which Turkey is developing to replace the F-16). Tbh by that point, I'd just allocate all of the C/Ds to an elite DACT unit. The way the PAF is moving, unless an F-16V-type upgrade is available to us, the F-16s will be stone-walled from our next-gen interoperability stack, munitions stack, etc.



Nice post mate.

Personally I am unsure if the US will totally give up any leverage over Pak Mil by doing this.

As we know Sea Sultans will fully replace P-3Cs
AH-1s are on the way out via Chinese/Turkish/Russian solution
F-16s then gone in 10-15 years.


So for for the first time in around 60 years that leaves Pakistan with no major US military platforms. This in itself is not a bad thing, as we all know their kit comes with strings and China will easily have caught up or surpassed much of the US tech by 2030-2040.

I just am unsure if the US really wants that situation Could be wrong here of course.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> Nice post mate.
> 
> Personally I am unsure if the US will totally give up any leverage over Pak Mil by doing this.
> 
> As we know Sea Sultans will fully replace P-3Cs
> AH-1s are on the way out via Chinese/Turkish/Russian solution
> F-16s then gone in 10-15 years.
> 
> 
> So for for the first time in around 60 years that leaves Pakistan with no major US military platforms. This in itself is not a bad thing, as we all know their kit comes with strings and China will easily have caught up or surpassed much of the US tech by 2030-2040.
> 
> I just am unsure if the US really wants that situation Could be wrong here of course.


Bro the issue is that the US is exerting leverage in other ways, like our economy. Some segments of our economy rely on exporting to the US (it's one of the few places where we have a trade surplus, for example). Likewise, the US is cornering us in institutions like FATF, which impacts our ability to trade and attract investment. 

Our fault is that we aren't doing enough to break out of this dependence, economically speaking. Imagine we sold cars, and our top export market was Central Asia. Now, we have serious leverage of our own and the US will acknowledge it. Suddenly, FATF won't matter (to us or the US) and the defence items will flow.

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## Raider 21

A split-S to full stop landing in the Viper. Not a Pakistani F-16, yet spectacular to watch

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## Signalian

Scorpiooo said:


> F16 is not going to out of pictures easily for PAF


100 seems a far fetched number considering US-Pak relations currently.

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## Falcon26

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Bro the issue is that the US is exerting leverage in other ways, like our economy. Some segments of our economy rely on exporting to the US (it's one of the few places where we have a trade surplus, for example). Likewise, the US is cornering us in institutions like FATF, which impacts our ability to trade and attract investment.
> 
> Our fault is that we aren't doing enough to break out of this dependence, economically speaking. Imagine we sold cars, and our top export market was Central Asia. Now, we have serious leverage of our own and the US will acknowledge it. Suddenly, FATF won't matter (to us or the US) and the defence items will flow.



Don’t forget Pakistan has never seriously explored African and South American markets. Its exports are oriented towards North America and the UK. It’s a dead-end mindset. Pakistan has been cursed with the most lethargic and corrupt planners. Absolutely no creatively or foresight.

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## Shabi1

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The issue with the PAF's F-16s aren't spare parts, but aircraft age. Our A/B airframes are reaching the end of their OEM-specified lifecycles, and there's no additional SLEP available for those specific aircraft. However, there's a 6,000 hour SLEP available for F-16C/Ds, so our Block-52+ can kick around for a while. Likewise, if the PAF can get used F-16C/Ds, they can apply the SLEP to those and keep them in the air for 15-20 years. Ideally, it could also apply an F-16V-type upgrade to around 54-72 F-16C/Ds (18 PAF birds plus 36-54 used C/Ds).
> 
> Unfortunately, Pakistan is in the darkest timeline in that the US isn't going to let a single one of these used or surplus airframes go to the PAF. Basically, think of the "easy, sensible solution" (like buying and upgrading used F-16s or C-130s), and now accept, "not going to happen." We're in *that* situation. Uncle Sam has gone desi uncle on us @JamD
> 
> If this predicament continues, then in time, the PAF's F-16C/Ds will be the only F-16s in service. By the 2040s, I'm sure the F-16A/Bs will be gone, especially if an NGFA comes online (e.g., the TFX, which Turkey is developing to replace the F-16). Tbh by that point, I'd just allocate all of the C/Ds to an elite DACT unit. The way the PAF is moving, unless an F-16V-type upgrade is available to us, the F-16s will be stone-walled from our next-gen interoperability stack, munitions stack, etc.


Agreed, without upgrades and access to newer AAM variants the AM/BMs would be at a disadvantage in AA combat soon. So no longer the tip of the spear and work horse of PAF. However I do see a possibility of PAF attempting doing its own overhauls and third party mods once OEM gives up on them to eventually keep them flying longer like we did with the Mirage in a limited role. We've been operating them over three decades now so there should be considerable local engineering know how built up for these platforms.

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## The Eagle

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The issue with the PAF's F-16s aren't spare parts, but aircraft age. Our A/B airframes are reaching the end of their OEM-specified lifecycles, and there's no additional SLEP available for those specific aircraft. However, there's a 6,000 hour SLEP available for F-16C/Ds, so our Block-52+ can kick around for a while. Likewise, if the PAF can get used F-16C/Ds, they can apply the SLEP to those and keep them in the air for 15-20 years. Ideally, it could also apply an F-16V-type upgrade to around 54-72 F-16C/Ds (18 PAF birds plus 36-54 used C/Ds).
> 
> Unfortunately, Pakistan is in the darkest timeline in that the US isn't going to let a single one of these used or surplus airframes go to the PAF. Basically, think of the "easy, sensible solution" (like buying and upgrading used F-16s or C-130s), and now accept, "not going to happen." We're in *that* situation. Uncle Sam has gone desi uncle on us @JamD
> 
> If this predicament continues, then in time, the PAF's F-16C/Ds will be the only F-16s in service. By the 2040s, I'm sure the F-16A/Bs will be gone, especially if an NGFA comes online (e.g., the TFX, which Turkey is developing to replace the F-16). Tbh by that point, I'd just allocate all of the C/Ds to an elite DACT unit. The way the PAF is moving, unless an F-16V-type upgrade is available to us, the F-16s will be stone-walled from our next-gen interoperability stack, munitions stack, etc.



The moot point was when I told them that It has to be us targeting ISIS terrorists dens & hideouts so that the world can remain at rest. EU supports the idea but they have their own grudge fights - UK le France and others joining with little bit of confusion but surely. Let see if 80's are repeating for us in the name of Afghanistan terrorist targeting. This time, Vs' or an upgrade is not limited to ground attack only. The dish was into making last time I checked but may turn into coal if not put out on time.

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## ghazi52

PAF F-16A #85726 and F-16B #84608 over the Cholistan desert, armed with AIM-9 Sidewinders -

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## Windjammer

Air Romance.

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## ghazi52

Great fighter aircrafts need great pilots, great fighter pilots acquire their highly specialized skills through intense training at the Operational Conversion Units.

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## ghazi52

There are some images you can hear as well as see. This one is one of them.

This week's throwback goes to the February 27th, 2020 air show over Karachi Sea View

Air Combat Command Pakistan Air Force .

P.C :-....... Rao Muhammad Farukh

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## ghazi52

Serial # 85728

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## Talon

ghazi52 said:


> Great fighter aircrafts need great pilots, great fighter pilots acquire their highly specialized skills through intense training at the Operational Conversion Units.
> 
> View attachment 789835


@Trailer23


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## Trailer23

Raider 21 said:


> A split-S to full stop landing in the Viper. Not a Pakistani F-16, yet spectacular to watch


Ahhh, you reminded me of this clip.

There are some other vids from the same Air Show on different day too.

Belgium Demo Team...





The Greek/Hellenic Demo Team (Zeus)





There is another version of the RNAF from a different angle. I have it on one of my Hard Drives.


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## PanzerKiel

“Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) Captive Equipment (ACE) Dual Variant Pod.” 

“This modification to the existing AMRAAM Field Team Support contract, FA8675-16-C-0067, includes requirements to develop, procure, and assemble a dual variant AIM-120C8 and AIM-120D3 ACE pod."

The pod was seen at Eglin US Air Force Base in late October.

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## Scorpiooo

PanzerKiel said:


> View attachment 791800
> 
> “Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) Captive Equipment (ACE) Dual Variant Pod.”
> 
> “This modification to the existing AMRAAM Field Team Support contract, FA8675-16-C-0067, includes requirements to develop, procure, and assemble a dual variant AIM-120C8 and AIM-120D3 ACE pod."
> 
> The pod was seen at Eglin US Air Force Base in late October.


This pod will have one each of both or can have similar?


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## Trailer23

Here is a Teaser for a upcoming Video Edit on the _*Viper*_.

Should be releasing it in a couple of days. I'm posting it here (too), 'cause not everyone was tagged on my Editing topic.





​Note: The 'Coming Soon' is by no means an indications that PAF is acquiring the F-16 - so chillax.

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## Windjammer

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1459126995116245011

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## Raider 21

A Viper HUD tape at the Paris Air Show. Not a PAF Viper, but aircraft meant for the Turkish AF.

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## Scorpiooo

Raider 21 said:


> A Viper HUD tape at the Paris Air Show. Not a PAF Viper, but aircraft meant for the Turkish AF.


Sanoo kee


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## Ghessan

Raider 21 said:


> A Viper HUD tape at the Paris Air Show. Not a PAF Viper, but aircraft meant for the Turkish AF.



oh boy, how badly he is exhausted during those maneuvers.


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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

Boss in action..........................

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## Windjammer

The Ideal Office.
An Iconic image of PAF F-16 during a low level flight.
A USAF pilot described his experience of flying F-16 with unrestricted view as riding on top of a Telegraph post. He said, ''every time i lit the afterburner, it felt as if it's going away from under me''. 
Credit: HFK

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## Signalian

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Our A/B airframes are reaching the end of their OEM-specified lifecycles, and there's no additional SLEP available for those specific aircraft.


V-upgrade extends airframe life ?


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## Metal 0-1

Signalian said:


> V-upgrade extends airframe life ?


Not really but its avionics will be relevant for 10-20 years

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## GriffinsRule

Signalian said:


> V-upgrade extends airframe life ?


No it does not. There are separate structural upgrades for F-16s which all users have already completed/opted for over the lives of their fleets. There is also an ongoing F-16 Aircraft Structural Integrity Program (ASIP) that monitors fatigue and cracks in various components such as wings etc. 
V upgrade is strictly for avionics/radar/ew etc

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## iLION12345_1

Signalian said:


> V-upgrade extends airframe life ?





GriffinsRule said:


> No it does not. There are separate structural upgrades for F-16s which all users have already completed/opted for over the lives of their fleets. There is also an ongoing F-16 Aircraft Structural Integrity Program (ASIP) that monitors fatigue and cracks in various components such as wings etc.
> V upgrade is strictly for avionics/radar/ew etc


The airframe life extension upgrades were FALCON-UP, FALCON-STAR and ASIP. Countries upgrading their F16s to V standard usually get those as well.

I believe one of these Packages were included in the upgrades our F16s received in turkey recently (along with their avionics upgrades). So they should still have life left in them. (43 F16s were upgraded, that’s all of them except ADF and C/D variants) 
however I’m not 100% if they got the life extensions so do take it with a grain of salt.


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## iLION12345_1

iLION12345_1 said:


> The airframe life extension upgrades were FALCON-UP, FALCON-STAR and ASIP. Countries upgrading their F16s to V standard usually get those as well.
> 
> I believe one of these Packages were included in the upgrades our F16s received in turkey recently (along with their avionics upgrades). So they should still have life left in them. (43 F16s were upgraded, that’s all of them except ADF and C/D variants)
> however I’m not 100% if they got the life extensions so do take it with a grain of salt.


From the little that I know, these 41 (or 43 according to some) aircraft received The radar and avionics package from Block 52+ However they did not get the option to mount CFTs, spinal EW (which itself is an option not all C/Ds have) or the extra hard point. They also received structural modernization.








TAI in Talks to Upgrade Pakistani F-16s


Tusas Turkish Aerospace Industries recently launched talks with Pakistan to upgrade a batch of 74 F-16 fighters of the Pakistani Air Force, company officials said.




www.defensenews.com





If this is true, this would leave the 13(?) ADF fighters as the only ones in PAF inventory that aren’t Modernized (those are the ones from Jordan or did they come from elsewhere?)

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## Nomad40

Raider 21 said:


> A Viper HUD tape at the Paris Air Show. Not a PAF Viper, but aircraft meant for the Turkish AF.


She moves!

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## Trailer23

So, this past week I spent 5 awesome days at the DxB Air Show & was fortunate to hang out with guys from the _55th Fighter Squadron (USAF)_ & the _176 Fighter Squadron (Air National Guard)_.

During our conversations I brought up something that isn't just something that is misunderstood in our parts, but shockingly has cast a doubt in other parts of the World (including the US).

Even though I knew the answer, but thought i'd ask for their view on...

*Is it the (Fighting) Falcon or the Viper?*​
The answer was quite obvious, but one of 'em gave me the link to a video *C.W. Lemoine* did a while back, & I thought i'd shorten it to get the message through.

The question came up 'cause I drew a lot attention from some idiots as to why I used the term '*Viper*' in my recent F-16 video - since according to them: Pakistan does not have Vipers

I know had I of gone about saying that all F-16's are Vipers regardless what Block they are or if they've gone through a MLU.

Anyways, I hope this will clear up any doubt for certain individuals on: The Viper





​@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Hodor @Windjammer @The Eagle @GriffinsRule @HRK @iLION12345_1 @mingle @Nomad40 @Path-Finder @The Raven @Zarvan @ziaulislam

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## ghazi52

*Rise...*

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## monitor

*Danish Defence to sell ageing fighter jets in anticipation of new fleet arriving*


F-16s have ten years on the clock and could command a price of 100 million kroner each






The F-16s can still put on a good show, so they won’t be cheap! (photo: Slaunger)
*November 11th, 2021 1:51 pm| by Marius Rolland*









Danish Defence is making plans to sell 24 of its 43 F-16 fighter jets before 2025 in anticipation of receiving its full contingent of F-35s.
For the last four months, Danish personnel have been testing four of the new planes in Arizona, and all 27 should be based on Danish soil by 2027.



The F-16s have *another ten years on the clock*, and it is believed they are worth 100 million kroner each(*11.24 million Dollars*). All revenue from the sales will be reinvested in the defence budget.
*One potential buyer …*
Turkey has emerged as a potential buyer, although that would have various complications.
The country was ousted by the US from the F-35 distribution program following statements by President Erdogan that he wanted to develop a military collaboration with Russia.
The buyer of the F-16s must be approved by Parliament, after which the Ministry of Justice will issue an export licence. And then the deal will need to be legally validated by the US, where the supplier Lockheed Martin is based.
*The old guard still in action*
Denmark’s F-16s are currently on their final deployment.
Since September, they have been based at the Šiauliai airbase in Lithuania, where they will continue to operate for another two months monitoring activity in the Baltic States.
The mission has so far resulted in the interception of 18 military aircraft attempting to penetrate the airspace borders of NATO member states.


dame Cheap if the only US approved.

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## xbat

who said Turkey is potential buyer? those aircrafts are junk, need to park nearest junkyard, if you buy them you need to upgrade them and pay millions more, why does Turkey need them? we have 238 f16 and they are younger , much more capable

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## monitor

xbat said:


> who said Turkey is potential buyer? those aircrafts are junk, need to park nearest junkyard, if you buy them you need to upgrade them and pay millions more, why does Turkey need them? we have 238 f16 and they are younger , much more capable




Turkey will not but used fighter. Turkey will upgrade 140 towards V standard and buy another 40 F-16V if usa approve. This reporter maybe eating taking weed while reporting.


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## Windjammer

PAF Vipers on CAP near the LOC.

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## khanasifm

😉

So anyone worked in industry will know ,all Oem perhaps and I know Lockheed Martin as being one has supply chain system which has complete inventory and parts etc 

Plus US ITAR, DSCA audits And monitoring for all US supplied equipment around the world , you cannot hide 

Layman may not know so for local consumption IAF can do anything 😉





__





Watch


Original shows and popular videos in different categories from producers and creators you love




fb.watch


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## Bratva

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1463538462519345155

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## TsAr

Bratva said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1463538462519345155


what are you trying to suggest here.


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## SQ8

TsAr said:


> what are you trying to suggest here.


What possibly would he want to suggest by posting an image posted by the US embassy Islamabad of the US attache in a Pakistani F-16 simulator supplied by the United States?
Its an image of a Pakistani F-16 related facility in a thread called F-16 news and discussions under Pakistan Air Force?
What else is there to “suggest” other than “here is some related news to the topic”

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## ghazi52

PAF F-16BM from 9 Squadron Griffins during an aerial photography operation.







This Viper met an incident while in service with USAF in 2006. While returning from a sortie the malfunction occurred in landing gear. Working on the problem for 2 hours pilots mananged to land this aircraft in Edwards AFB with the right wing touching the ground. 
Pilots remained safe & the aircraft was repaired shortly afterwards & came in service with PAF two years later ...




© Hamid Faraz Khan ( HFK RAW )

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## Windjammer

PAF Vipers from No 9 Griffins had their squadron emblem painted in high-viz for their participation in Pakistan Day Parade.
Courtesy : HFK

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## Raja Porus

Windjammer said:


> PAF Vipers from No 9 Griffins had their squadron emblem painted in high-viz for their participation in Pakistan Day Parade.
> Courtesy : HFK
> 
> 
> View attachment 797050


Pindi boy?


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## Windjammer

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Pindi boy?


Who. HFK.?


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## Raja Porus

Windjammer said:


> PAF Vipers from No 9 Griffins had their squadron emblem painted in high-viz for their participation in Pakistan Day Parade.
> Courtesy : HFK
> 
> 
> View attachment 797050





Windjammer said:


> Who. HFK.?


Griffins ↓

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## Trailer23

Some may have already seen partial of this clip in my most recent Viper video edit. This is the complete version I was able to track down.

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## Raider 21

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Pindi boy?


A proud Pathan


Windjammer said:


> PAF Vipers from No 9 Griffins had their squadron emblem painted in high-viz for their participation in Pakistan Day Parade.
> Courtesy : HFK
> 
> 
> View attachment 797050


85726 is probably the only aircraft in the world that may have shot down a legit Viper. This is neat paint on the tail, reminds me of the Alabama ANG










Some can be seen here in the documentary

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## ghazi52

*ACE of PAF*

"Brand new PAF F-16C basking under sun while F-16D taking off in the background in early days of their arrival in Pakistan"

What will the US do with its latest F-16s ?

We are the prime user of this machine with excellent safety record. Over the years we have managed to score kills against many of the Russian built fighter aircrafts. An example of which the world has seen in 27th Feb 2019's aerial skirmish between Pakistan Air Force & Indian Air Force, where our F-16s scored against IAF's top of the line aircraft SU-30 & MIG-21 Bison & InshaAllah Rafael is in the Twilight

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## DHSquare

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 798317
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *ACE of PAF*
> 
> "Brand new PAF F-16C basking under sun while F-16D taking off in the background in early days of their arrival in Pakistan"
> 
> What will the US do with its latest F-16s ?
> 
> We are the prime user of this machine with excellent safety record. Over the years we have managed to score kills against many of the Russian built fighter aircrafts. An example of which the world has seen in 27th Feb 2019's aerial skirmish between Pakistan Air Force & Indian Air Force, where our F-16s scored against IAF's top of the line aircraft SU-30 & MIG-21 Bison & InshaAllah Rafael is in the Twilight


Any chance those latest usaf f16s .... atleast some of them end up in PAF colors??

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## jupiter2007

DHSquare said:


> Any chance those latest usaf f16s .... atleast some of them end up in PAF colors??



USA has put a condition on those…. either you are with us or against us. If you are with us then you can’t be closed friends with China.
Uncle Sam is dangling the carrot (F-16)


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## ZedZeeshan

jupiter2007 said:


> USA has put a condition on those…. either you are with us or against us. If you are with us then you can’t be closed friends with China.
> Uncle Sam is dangling the carrot (F-16)


In both ways we will not sell latest F16 to Pakistan

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## Cool_Soldier

No more F-16 as situation is not getting better between two Nations.
Just rely on your own JF 17 block III.


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## Scorpiooo

Alot of facilitation going on back doors for American, so chances of EDA F16 or even V kits are very feasible in this circumstance (all repend on our highup priorities)

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## Ghessan

ZedZeeshan said:


> In both ways we will not sell latest F16 to Pakistan



are you a UAE national?


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## ghazi52

“Courage is poorly housed that dwells in numbers; the lion never counts the herd that are about him, nor weighs how many flocks he has to scatter.”

F-16 ADF No.19 Sqn

#Sherdil

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## Sayfullah

We should use isis in Afghanistan as a reason to get more f-16s. If usa wants isis to be defeated and not to expand and become a big threat to usa than they must give us more f-16s to fight them.

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## Trailer23



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## ghazi52

PAF F-16B block 15 #85609 parked on the tarmac with an Altis pod on the intake and an LGB under the wing station. The aircraft was lost on December 18th, 1986.







[Photo by Irfan Mahmood]

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## Gripen9

ghazi52 said:


> PAF F-16B block 15 #85609 parked on the tarmac with an Altis pod on the intake and an LGB under the wing station. The aircraft was lost on December 18th, 1986.
> 
> 
> View attachment 799541
> 
> 
> [Photo by Irfan Mahmood]


The wild boar kill 


ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 800002


Must be an old picture. I recognize someone who is no longer with the sqn.

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## ghazi52

Gripen9 said:


> Must be an old picture. I recognize someone who is no longer with the sqn.



Yes, it is for " Our Heroes need their identity back

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## HAIDER

_*US Air Force Plans Massive Decommissioning Of Assets; MQ-9 Drones, F-16 Fighters, C-130 Planes In The ‘Axe List’*_





*"The US Air Force also highlighted in its budget request for FY 2022 to retire over 200 aircraft including 48 F-15C/Ds, 47 F-16C/D fighters, 13 C-130H transport aircraft, 18 KC-135, and 14 KC-10 refuelers, 42 A-10 Warthogs, and the 20 RQ-4 drones. Also, it plans to shed 16 E-8 JSTARS surveillance and targeting aircraft."*

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## FuturePAF

HAIDER said:


> _*US Air Force Plans Massive Decommissioning Of Assets; MQ-9 Drones, F-16 Fighters, C-130 Planes In The ‘Axe List’*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"The US Air Force also highlighted in its budget request for FY 2022 to retire over 200 aircraft including 48 F-15C/Ds, 47 F-16C/D fighters, 13 C-130H transport aircraft, 18 KC-135, and 14 KC-10 refuelers, 42 A-10 Warthogs, and the 20 RQ-4 drones. Also, it plans to shed 16 E-8 JSTARS surveillance and targeting aircraft."*



It all comes down to the state of the Relations, because even if the PAF pays for them or at least the upgrades, it could still just get Soybeans by the time Delivery is promised.

A-10s won’t be shed, congress rejects the air force’s request to shed them.


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## khanasifm

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 800002



True stand off a2g weapons is the shortcoming of paf f-16s


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## mingle

HAIDER said:


> _*US Air Force Plans Massive Decommissioning Of Assets; MQ-9 Drones, F-16 Fighters, C-130 Planes In The ‘Axe List’*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *"The US Air Force also highlighted in its budget request for FY 2022 to retire over 200 aircraft including 48 F-15C/Ds, 47 F-16C/D fighters, 13 C-130H transport aircraft, 18 KC-135, and 14 KC-10 refuelers, 42 A-10 Warthogs, and the 20 RQ-4 drones. Also, it plans to shed 16 E-8 JSTARS surveillance and targeting aircraft."*


Armed services committe head along US airforce officials are in islamabad tonight

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## HAIDER

mingle said:


> Armed services committe head along US airforce officials are in islamabad tonight


May be few F16 and C130.

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## mingle

HAIDER said:


> May be few F16 and C130.


Shah G not few alot more AH1z too

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## HAIDER

mingle said:


> Shah G not few alot more AH1z too


sir ji ...IK already refused to attend conference on democracy... don't know how they take it now ..


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## mingle

HAIDER said:


> sir ji ...IK already refused to attend conference on democracy... don't know how they take it now ..


They arrived today


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## GriffinsRule

We should push to get the C-130Js UK is retiring

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## mingle

GriffinsRule said:


> We should push to get the C-130Js UK is retiring


Alot of stuff US is retiring as well including Marine corps AH1z s

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## araz

mingle said:


> Alot of stuff US is retiring as well including Marine corps AH1z s


How will they give us the go ahead when our own 
AH1Zs are in storage due to difference over payments. I agree the AH1Zs and C130Js would be a God send. Worth acquiring if the US is willing.
A

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## Trailer23

Trailer23 said:


> [Challo, ye chapter bhe bund honay wala hai...]
> 
> *Norway to sell limited number of F-16s to Draken International*


Romania to buy 32 more F-16s for $514 million

32 Vipers for peanuts..., while we're still entertaining US Senators.


mingle said:


> Armed services committe head along US airforce officials are in islamabad tonight


So, did they offer us anything other than the appreciation for helping the evacuation from Afghanistan?


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## Windjammer

Apparently we were offered both the Danish and Norwegian F-16AM/BM but PAF was keen on C/D airframes.
The PAF was of the opinion that both these didn't justify the upgrades just like our 9 , 11 and 19 will not be getting the upgrades.

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## SQ8

While the delegation is fairly military focused it also may have NOTHING to do with procurement and more to do with overflight and Afghanistan. Hopefully I am wrong but the PDF wolf is getting boring now

‘Le American eats a mutton karahi in peer Sohawa’

PDF’ers
“F-16V with AIM-120D have landed in Jacobabad and flying CAPs already!
AH-1Zs are coming on new PAF C-130Js right now on flight radar!!!!!…”

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## Raider 21

SQ8 said:


> While the delegation is fairly military focused it also may have NOTHING to do with procurement and more to do with overflight and Afghanistan. Hopefully I am wrong but the PDF wolf is getting boring now
> 
> ‘Le American eats a mutton karahi in peer Sohawa’
> 
> PDF’ers
> “F-16V with AIM-120D have landed in Jacobabad and flying CAPs already!
> AH-1Zs are coming on new PAF C-130Js right now on flight radar!!!!!…”


JF-17s joining USA!!!!

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## Windjammer

SQ8 said:


> While the delegation is fairly military focused it also may have NOTHING to do with procurement and more to do with overflight and Afghanistan. Hopefully I am wrong but the PDF wolf is getting boring now
> 
> ‘Le American eats a mutton karahi in peer Sohawa’
> 
> PDF’ers
> “F-16V with AIM-120D have landed in Jacobabad and flying CAPs already!
> AH-1Zs are coming on new PAF C-130Js right now on flight radar!!!!!…”


Maybe if they had met the PAF Boss but since it was confined to the Army Chief, lets build our hopes on MRAPs, Abrahams maybe Zulus as side dish. Maybe they even brought some goodies with them as they never arrived in a civilian airliner.


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## kursed

SQ8 said:


> While the delegation is fairly military focused it also may have NOTHING to do with procurement and more to do with overflight and Afghanistan. Hopefully I am wrong but the PDF wolf is getting boring now
> 
> ‘Le American eats a mutton karahi in peer Sohawa’
> 
> PDF’ers
> “F-16V with AIM-120D have landed in Jacobabad and flying CAPs already!
> AH-1Zs are coming on new PAF C-130Js right now on flight radar!!!!!…”


PDF’rs still haven’t come to terms with the new geopolitical alignment of the world. 

Hence to constant need to go back to early 2000s era stick / carrot mode.

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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Maybe if they had met the PAF Boss but since it was confined to the Army Chief, lets build our hopes on MRAPs, Abrahams maybe Zulus as side dish. Maybe they even brought some goodies with them as they never arrived in a civilian airliner.
> 
> 
> View attachment 800559


That's actually common for House committee members, senators or any other state dept official to request a military transport. 
The US embassy is regularly resupplied by C-17s. Another reason is that civilian flights expose them to espionage whereas you can transport or ship ANYTHING in a C-17 in a diplomatic box and no one in the host country dare touch it.


kursed said:


> PDF’rs still haven’t come to terms with the new geopolitical alignment of the world.


Then they'll learn from experience and that is never a gentle teacher.

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## Windjammer

SQ8 said:


> That's actually common for House committee members, senators or any other state dept official to request a military transport.
> The US embassy is regularly resupplied by C-17s. Another reason is that civilian flights expose them to espionage whereas you can transport or ship ANYTHING in a C-17 in a diplomatic box and no one in the host country dare touch it.
> 
> Then they'll learn from experience and that is never a gentle teacher.


Dear i was merely giving the PDF conclusion.


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## TNT

Can our F16s fire AIM 120 C7? 120 D is not realistic and would be great if we can even get some c7s.


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## SQ8

TNT said:


> Can our F16s fire AIM 120 C7? 120 D is not realistic and would be great if we can even get some c7s.


They can fire all AMRAAM variants but the D's will require an additional upgrade tape to take full advantage of the capabilities. 
These F-16s are likely the last US fighter and their weapons stock is also the last US weapon to be used by the PAF for a long time. 
Pakistan is now on the ignore or threat side of the US foreign policy and considered a redland.

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## kursed

SQ8 said:


> They can fire all AMRAAM variants but the D's will require an additional upgrade tape to take full advantage of the capabilities.
> These F-16s are likely the last US fighter and their weapons stock is also the last US weapon to be used by the PAF for a long time.
> Pakistan is now on the ignore or threat side of the US foreign policy and considered a redland.


If the US even as much as not threaten maintenance of these aircraft (software and hardware), I’d consider it a huge favor. For now. But yes; otherwise, US will not sell any more offensive weaponry to Pakistan.


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## SQ8

kursed said:


> If the US even as much as not threaten maintenance of these aircraft (software and hardware), I’d consider it a huge favor. For now. But yes; otherwise, US will not sell any more offensive weaponry to Pakistan.


No - the United States knows the exact balance it has to play to get its interests in Pakistan. Therefore the US support personnel and spares are readily available to Pakistan and if they do want to extend the life of these aircraft it will be permitted as well. There is a calculus between India and Pakistan that will be allowed and regardless of RAND or other cockamiemie think tanks coming up with fanciful scenarios of US invading Pakistan or attacking Pakistan, it will be the first country to immediately step into an Indo-Pak conflict to calm things down. 

The nuclear weapons are out of reach and that has been flatly understood by all true strategists and thinks here in the US so the best track is to use media and diplomatic influence to keep Pakistan exactly where it is today - a disjointed country barely held together by its military and the military kept up by dealings and support. If that calculus suggests that AH-1Zs or even 32 Viper upgrade kits be released the US "state" will talk to its representatives and other folks to get them to vote a narrow "YEA" and keep that balance afloat.

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## kursed

SQ8 said:


> No - the United States knows the exact balance it has to play to get its interests in Pakistan. Therefore the US support personnel and spares are readily available to Pakistan and if they do want to extend the life of these aircraft it will be permitted as well. There is a calculus between India and Pakistan that will be allowed and regardless of RAND or other cockamiemie think tanks coming up with fanciful scenarios of US invading Pakistan or attacking Pakistan, it will be the first country to immediately step into an Indo-Pak conflict to calm things down.
> 
> The nuclear weapons are out of reach and that has been flatly understood by all true strategists and thinks here in the US so the best track is to use media and diplomatic influence to keep Pakistan exactly where it is today - a disjointed country barely held together by its military and the military kept up by dealings and support. If that calculus suggests that AH-1Zs or even 32 Viper upgrade kits be released the US "state" will talk to its representatives and other folks to get them to vote a narrow "YEA" and keep that balance afloat.


That actually makes sense.


----------



## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


> Apparently we were offered both the Danish and Norwegian F-16AM/BM but PAF was keen on C/D airframes.


I don't know 'bout that, but it seems rather adventurous/ambitious for PAF to be making those kind demands...knowing full well that US* would never sign off on it.

*The very same that killed !srael's F-16 Sale to Croatia a year back.

Apparently, the same Croatia went ahead & bought a dozen used Rafales from France.


SQ8 said:


> PDF’ers
> “F-16V with AIM-120D have landed in Jacobabad and flying CAPs already!
> AH-1Zs are coming on new PAF C-130Js right now on flight radar!!!!!…”


(selected) PDF'ers in multiverse.

Most of us still have our feet firmly grounded on Planet Earth.


----------



## mingle

araz said:


> How will they give us the go ahead when our own
> AH1Zs are in storage due to difference over payments. I agree the AH1Zs and C130Js would be a God send. Worth acquiring if the US is willing.
> A





araz said:


> How will they give us the go ahead when our own
> AH1Zs are in storage due to difference over payments. I agree the AH1Zs and C130Js would be a God send. Worth acquiring if the US is willing.
> A


Yes I know I meant if things get smooth PAA should look used Marine C


Windjammer said:


> Maybe if they had met the PAF Boss but since it was confined to the Army Chief, lets build our hopes on MRAPs, Abrahams maybe Zulus as side dish. Maybe they even brought some goodies with them as they never arrived in a civilian airliner.
> 
> 
> View attachment 800559


U mean Abraham tanks? Yeh Santa is here


----------



## Windjammer



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## Shabi1

We procured 500 (-2 from SWIFT RETORT) AIM-120C5 AMRAAMs from US, this is not a small number. Was looking at some news articles and Raytheon actually gives pretty extensive after sales support to its customers and this includes software updates as well as upgrades to missile components. Even if we are not getting any major new additions I think it would be pretty likely that they could at least be updated to C7+ without any mention in news as the amount involved wouldn't be much and Raytheon would like to keep its good track record for its products in future use. If so The F-16s+Erieye combo will remain very relevant even against Meteor.

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## ghazi52

PAF F-16 #84606 is coming in for landing with brakes opened and a little Indian flag on the side on February 15th, 2021.





[photo by Rao Muhammad Farrukh]

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> No - the United States knows the exact balance it has to play to get its interests in Pakistan. Therefore the US support personnel and spares are readily available to Pakistan and if they do want to extend the life of these aircraft it will be permitted as well. There is a calculus between India and Pakistan that will be allowed and regardless of RAND or other cockamiemie think tanks coming up with fanciful scenarios of US invading Pakistan or attacking Pakistan, it will be the first country to immediately step into an Indo-Pak conflict to calm things down.
> 
> The nuclear weapons are out of reach and that has been flatly understood by all true strategists and thinks here in the US so the best track is to use media and diplomatic influence to keep Pakistan exactly where it is today - a disjointed country barely held together by its military and the military kept up by dealings and support. If that calculus suggests that AH-1Zs or even 32 Viper upgrade kits be released the US "state" will talk to its representatives and other folks to get them to vote a narrow "YEA" and keep that balance afloat.


I suspect the PAF itself isn't too interested in upgrading the A/Bs to V. Those are old airframes and the V upgrade would literally cost more than the aircraft themselves, but for a limited life-cycle thereafter. However, the 18 Block-52s are a totally different story. Not only would the V-upgrade be a big operational boost for those F-16s, but you get an amazing DACT asset long-run for training JF-17 crews. That said, there's a lot of value in grabbing EDA F-16C/Ds and putting them through the OEM 6K-8K SLEP + V too.

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## denel

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I suspect the PAF itself isn't too interested in upgrading the A/Bs to V. Those are old airframes and the V upgrade would literally cost more than the aircraft themselves, but for a limited life-cycle thereafter. However, the 18 Block-52s are a totally different story. Not only would the V-upgrade be a big operational boost for those F-16s, but you get an amazing DACT asset long-run for training JF-17 crews. That said, there's a lot of value in grabbing EDA F-16C/Ds and putting them through the OEM 6K-8K SLEP + V too.


Correct, i second your opinion on EDA but this is where Pak foreign affair bungled up... Indians love to kiss *** and be omni-present outside US senators... If you cannot beat them then learn from them and counter their ways of lobbying.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I suspect the PAF itself isn't too interested in upgrading the A/Bs to V. Those are old airframes and the V upgrade would literally cost more than the aircraft themselves, but for a limited life-cycle thereafter. However, the 18 Block-52s are a totally different story. Not only would the V-upgrade be a big operational boost for those F-16s, but you get an amazing DACT asset long-run for training JF-17 crews. That said, there's a lot of value in grabbing EDA F-16C/Ds and putting them through the OEM 6K-8K SLEP + V too.


Unfortunately the VERY mixed messages coming from Pakistan in terms of the true state of the economy along with the VERY vague messages from the US in terms of where the future of the relationship lies are indicators that the F-16 saga is likely over for the PAF. It does remain the lowest hanging fruit in terms of boosting operational capabilities but the farthest on in terms of whatever limited options available to Pakistan both from a diplomatic and financial perspective.

Pakistan is a has-been topic for US lawmakers in general other than some Indian lobby paid ones looking to push sanctions. The “friends of Pakistan” don’t have influence on the floor because the people they would influence are either busy with China or domestic issues. 
The democrats are struggling and it is a divided senate and house.

So, unless the US government makes it a priority (which it isn’t ) and Pakistan comes up with hard cash right now for a significant number(36 new Vs + EDA vipers upgraded) which it won’t; I believe energies are best spent on the other platforms PAF is working on. The F-16 has done its part for the PAF from being this mythological killer in the 80-90s, to providing unbeatable CAS during the anti-terror campaigns and finally being a serious &proven A2A threat during the first half of this century.

But its done and it’s ok to let this relationship go now.

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## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I suspect the PAF itself isn't too interested in upgrading the A/Bs to V. Those are old airframes and the V upgrade would literally cost more than the aircraft themselves, but for a limited life-cycle thereafter. However, the 18 Block-52s are a totally different story. Not only would the V-upgrade be a big operational boost for those F-16s, but you get an amazing DACT asset long-run for training JF-17 crews. That said, there's a lot of value in grabbing EDA F-16C/Ds and putting them through the OEM 6K-8K SLEP + V too.


Were these block 52 EDA are available?


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## Scorpiooo

On the Tr3other hand Egyptians or Iraqi non brv block 52 are present only of we have enough pocket and lobbying to get them


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## Raja Porus

In case you don't receive your Christmas present

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## Windjammer



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## Trailer23

An oldie, but goldie...










@Hodor @Windjammer @Raider 21

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## Reichmarshal

Trailer23 said:


> An oldie, but goldie...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Hodor @Windjammer @Raider 21


had a dog named goldie


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## Sinnerman108

Trailer23 said:


> I don't know 'bout that, but it seems rather adventurous/ambitious for PAF to be making those kind demands...knowing full well that US* would never sign off on it.
> 
> *The very same that killed !srael's F-16 Sale to Croatia a year back.
> 
> Apparently, the same Croatia went ahead & bought a dozen used Rafales from France.
> 
> (selected) PDF'ers in multiverse.
> 
> Most of us still have our feet firmly grounded on Planet Earth.



That is not a standard move.
The question that US will ask is IF they don't sign off on the F-16s then what will happen
and the answer is Pakistan will look else where, 
which would imply Pakistan slipping out completely out of US control.

Would US want that to happen or not,is something only they can answer.


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## syed_yusuf

Sinnerman108 said:


> That is not a standard move.
> The question that US will ask is IF they don't sign off on the F-16s then what will happen
> and the answer is Pakistan will look else where,
> which would imply Pakistan slipping out completely out of US control.
> 
> Would US want that to happen or not,is something only they can answer.


That is already happening... The window of opportunity for USA is shrinking fast. By inducting j10p ... Pakistan has literally closed the doors on any new f-16 .... However if USA offered jsf on favourable terms, PAF might consider. Chances of it happening is very low

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## Imran Khan

Sinnerman108 said:


> That is not a standard move.
> The question that US will ask is IF they don't sign off on the F-16s then what will happen
> and the answer is Pakistan will look else where,
> which would imply Pakistan slipping out completely out of US control.
> 
> Would US want that to happen or not,is something only they can answer.


pakistan have self imposed ban of buying us weapons from 6 years now


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## Trailer23

Imran Khan said:


> pakistan have self imposed ban of buying us weapons from 6 years now


Self Imposed, huh...

Is that the same as a self inflicted gunshot wound?

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## ghazi52

Flying is more then a sport or a job, Flying is sheer Passion & Desire which a lifetime... 
*Saqib Ashraf Photography/Art*

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## ghazi52



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## TNT

Imran Khan said:


> pakistan have self imposed ban of buying us weapons from 6 years now



Sir we have done everything short of begging and many pdf users even did that but we still didnt get engines for T129.

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## Bigbang1983

Reichmarshal said:


> had a dog named goldie



Salam
I knew someone who had a dog named goldie...


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## ghazi52



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## HAIDER

Imran Khan said:


> pakistan have self imposed ban of buying us weapons from 6 years now


Sir ji ...Nawaz lost the opportunity to buy F16 ...needed 550 million to pay the planes, but ...was more busy in money laundering, buying houses in UK ....

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## mingle

HAIDER said:


> Sir ji ...Nawaz lost the opportunity to buy F16 ...needed 550 million to pay the planes, but ...was more busy in money laundering, buying houses in UK ....


Dar got money for Geo & Dunya not for F16s ironic part was LM offered PAF we will make jets from our funds and delivered Portugal U can pick up from there by paying money but Dar was busy with money laundering refused even with that offer by LM means LM was ok pay later thing as well
With those 8 today we have 26 two Sqdns blk52s 13 each


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## m52k85

Romania to Acquire 32 Additional F-16s for $514 Million


Romania plans to purchase 32 additional F-16 fighters from Norway in a bid to modernize the country’s air force.




www.thedefensepost.com


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## ziaulislam

Sinnerman108 said:


> That is not a standard move.
> The question that US will ask is IF they don't sign off on the F-16s then what will happen
> and the answer is Pakistan will look else where,
> which would imply Pakistan slipping out completely out of US control.
> 
> Would US want that to happen or not,is something only they can answer.


Depends
If india demands to choose between me & pakistan then USA will choose india

We underestimate india importamce

Lets see if india say i wont buy f18 & will buy rafale because u did buisness with pakistan..or worse buy russian stuff
Saab is saying no to new deals even though they have no hope to acquire things and were clearly told they wont get anything if they continue to do so..have you guys seen the IPL

If india becomes or rather when india becomes a economic power house, expect large punitive action by it...

The only solution to this that you become one which is still an IF not a WHEN like india case

India has done all the ground up for development not us..

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## Windjammer

PAF F-16 Block-52 returning after some serious A2A and A2G Exercise.
Note the smoke blackened Gun port of the Viper.

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## syed_yusuf

ziaulislam said:


> Depends
> If india demands to choose between me & pakistan then USA will choose india
> 
> We underestimate india importamce
> 
> Lets see if india say i wont buy f18 & will buy rafale because u did buisness with pakistan..or worse buy russian stuff
> Saab is saying no to new deals even though they have no hope to acquire things and were clearly told they wont get anything if they continue to do so..have you guys seen the IPL
> 
> If india becomes or rather when india becomes a economic power house, expect large punitive action by it...
> 
> The only solution to this that you become one which is still an IF not a WHEN like india case
> 
> India has done all the ground up for development not us..


Absolutely correct, Pakistan is again missing the bus. As a nation Pakistan needs to build up all phases of economic development. Including education

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## FuturePAF

ziaulislam said:


> Depends
> If india demands to choose between me & pakistan then USA will choose india
> 
> We underestimate india importamce
> 
> Lets see if india say i wont buy f18 & will buy rafale because u did buisness with pakistan..or worse buy russian stuff
> Saab is saying no to new deals even though they have no hope to acquire things and were clearly told they wont get anything if they continue to do so..have you guys seen the IPL
> 
> If india becomes or rather when india becomes a economic power house, expect large punitive action by it...
> 
> The only solution to this that you become one which is still an IF not a WHEN like india case
> 
> India has done all the ground up for development not us..



Sad but true, Pakistan’s best hope is a strong economy, and continuous rapid economic growth to at least keep pace with India, diplomatically and militarily along with economically.


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## Scorpiooo

Note : not belong to PAF sharing due picture of bird

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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer

*Even after over 40 years of service, nothing turns heads like the F-16. *

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## WiderMan

Windjammer said:


> PAF F-16 Block-52 returning after some serious A2A and A2G Exercise.
> Note the smoke blackened Gun port of the Viper.
> 
> View attachment 805149




Post 27/02 CAP.

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## The Eagle

Windjammer said:


> Sir, I think you are confusing this with another image as those are smoke winders and i believe the birds are heading towards the Parade Avenue.



AIM120C5


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## Windjammer

The Eagle said:


> AIM120C5





untitled said:


> The stencil text on the AMRAAM in the foreground. Where have I seen it before?


Sorry, I thought he was referring to the above image.

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## ghazi52

PAF F-16BM 90613 from 9sq 'Griffins' seen turning and burning over Rawalpindi during Defence Day, yearly celebrated on 6 September.






It started life as F-16B-15OCU-CF 90-0948 and was handed over on 10 April 1992 and was originally assigned serial 91613.

However, it went straight to AMARG. In January 2003 it was sent to Lockheed-Martin as 90-0948 and was subsequently delivered in July 2007 as 90613. It received its MLU upgrade with Turkish Aerospace and was first noted as BM in March 2016.

© Erwin Van Dijkman

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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer



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## Raja Porus

Paksitanis being paksitani..

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## WiderMan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478702525197033478

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## Windjammer

WiderMan said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1478702525197033478


Very poorly PSed.


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## Trango Towers

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Paksitanis being paksitani..
> View attachment 806128
> View attachment 806129


Its a hot day. Looool

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## peagle

*F-16 First Flight (accidental)*

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## Windjammer



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## m52k85

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 807886


where's the targeting pod?


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## Windjammer

m52k85 said:


> where's the targeting pod?


Where's the Second Pilot ... RIO/GIBS.


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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> Where's the Second Pilot ... RIO/GIBS.


They are on the ground, monitoring from a ground control station. That's an aircraft going through flight tests

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## m52k85

Windjammer said:


> Where's the Second Pilot ... RIO/GIBS.


touche


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## Trailer23

m52k85 said:


> touche


It's a very old image prior to its Delivery to the PAF - which explains no markings/Livery of any Squadron on the Vertical Stabilizer.

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## Windjammer

m52k85 said:


> where's the targeting pod?





Raider 21 said:


> They are on the ground, monitoring from a ground control station. That's an aircraft going through flight tests


First PAF Block-52D undergoing weapon load trials.

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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer

CREDITS : HFK

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## ghazi52

F-16D Block-52 from No. 5 Sqn aka Falcons







: Waqas Shah

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## Raider 21

Not a PAF Viper, but still a Viper. Seen here on a demo flown by Ahmed Al-Nuami, callsign TROY

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Airforce F-16B landing on its home base.

Photo by Saeed Ahmed Siddique

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## ghazi52

*Syed Zohaib Zaidi Photography *
added a new photo.


Block 52 dispensing flares!

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## Windjammer

A 29th Aggressors unit Viper pulls up after a sortie.

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## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


> A 29th Aggressors unit Viper *pulls up* after a sortie.
> 
> View attachment 809084


Breaks applied...

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## Ali_Baba

Trailer23 said:


> Breaks applied...



And no afterburner deployed either..


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## Windjammer

Trailer23 said:


> Breaks applied...


I can see very well see the AIR brakes deployed.....when i said pulls up, i didn't mean it's lifting up rather like a bus pulls up on a bus stop...also i did say....after a sortie.

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## Trailer23



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## Metal 0-1

Escort, intercept or refueling op


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## Trailer23

Metal 0-1 said:


> Escort, intercept or refueling op


Hard to say. Its *No. 11 Squadron (Arrows)*, so it can't be from Red Flag (Refueling Op)

Anatolian Eagle, maybe from a few years back.

& yeah, it could be an Escort when the US was fleeing Afghanistan.


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## Metal 0-1

Yeah wings look similar to C-17's. So I don't recall any C-17 with refuelling boom.

So it looks like escort


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## Trailer23

Metal 0-1 said:


> Yeah wings look similar to C-17's. So I don't recall any C-17 with refuelling boom.
> 
> So it looks like escort


Can't see the Winglet, otherwise it would've easily confirmed type of a/c.

And yeah, C-17 (Globemaster III) doesn't come in a Refueling variant - as cool as an idea that may be.


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## AeroEngineer

Trailer23 said:


> Can't see the Winglet, otherwise it would've easily confirmed type of a/c.
> 
> And yeah, C-17 (Globemaster III) doesn't come in a Refueling variant - as cool as an idea that may be.


The picture is taken above the wing which indicates it is a mid-wing aircraft hence KC-135. C-17 is a high wing aircraft with no windows above the wing. The two aircraft have different power plants and the easy way to tell the difference externally is that C-17 engine nacelle (cowling/cover) have these vortex generators (fin-like structures) on both inboard and outboard side of the inlet which would have been visible in a shot like this.

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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer



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## Riz



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## Imran Khan

Riz said:


> View attachment 810369


USAF




__





USAF Viper Demo Team – Photorecon.net






photorecon.net


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## Windjammer

*Beauty Personified. *

.

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## ghazi52

PAF F-16D block 52 #10805 is seen landing at Lajes Field during a stop over during its delivery flight to Pakistan on June 22nd, 2010.
Photo by Leandro Rocha

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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52

Pakistan Air Force F-16A #82702 over the Indus river, near Attock. Note the standard PAF F-16 color scheme.
Photo by Saeed Ahmed Siddique

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## airomerix

Little known.

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## baqai

airomerix said:


> Little known.
> 
> 
> View attachment 811674



brave but it could easily have turned into a horror story with pilot losses, i guess our boys are trained to save the aircraft till the last moment rather than their life

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## ghazi52

PAF Kamra Base

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## Windjammer



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## AeroEngineer

ghazi52 said:


> View attachment 811792
> 
> 
> 
> PAF Kamra Base


This appears to be from 1983-1988 Afghan war period when PAF kept F-16s at minimum reaction time by placing them on ORP with all pre-flight checks done and even the Remove Before Flight protective covers removed. This was a new SOP drafted for those days.


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## ghazi52

AeroEngineer said:


> This appears to be from 1983-1988 Afghan war period when PAF kept F-16s at minimum reaction time by placing them on ORP with all pre-flight checks done and even the Remove Before Flight protective covers removed. This was a new SOP drafted for those days.



This F-16A (S # 84-717) Has At Least One Kill To It's Credit When On 3 November 1988 Squadron Leader Khalid Mehmood Shot Down An Afghan Air Force Sukhoi Su-22.
© Usman Shabbir / DPR / Abbas Ali

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## Windjammer

An Iconic image of one of PAF's legendry pilot posing with a similar aircraft.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Windjammer said:


> An Iconic image of one of PAF's legendry pilot posing with a similar aircraft.
> 
> View attachment 811824


Quite an MM Alam look alike....

Must induce a cold shudder through the spinal chord of the IAF pilots...

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## Windjammer

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> Quite an MM Alam look alike....


This is him performing on a special occasion.

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Windjammer said:


> This is him performing on a special occasion.


As for the pretty F16s: It must have been love.....

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## ghazi52

Pakistan Air Force F-16A, #84704, Releasing Twelve Mk.82'sing A Medium-altitude Dive-bombing Run.

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## Windjammer

A Niners Viper blasting off from an operational base. How lucky are these folks living near this base. 
CREDIT: HFK

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## alikazmi007

F-16 was love at first sight for me, heart flutters when I see our boys in the Viper

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## ghazi52



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## ghazi52



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## Riz

F-16D block 52 back seat view

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## ghazi52



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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52



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## xbat

does PAF have aim9X in its inventory?


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## SQ8

xbat said:


> does PAF have aim9X in its inventory?


No

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## xbat

SQ8 said:


> No


OK , you may test BOZDOGAN with that fancy helmet soon

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## SQ8

xbat said:


> OK , you may test BOZDOGAN with that fancy helmet soon


Not allowed by the original equipment manufacturer. Neither Pakistan nor Turkey has permission to make any unauthorized modification to Pakistan F-16s.

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## xbat

who said modification? Turkey is going to use these weapons on its whole f16 fleet, it is stated many times by turkish autorities.

PAK f16 may see it aim 9x on the computer


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## Talon

Image source : Facebook

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## ghazi52

Hodor said:


> Image source : Facebook
> 
> View attachment 813355




PAC Kamra
Paint removal.

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## xbat

*are those guys work in a auto body shop? you need better infrastructure*

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## Windjammer

CREDIT : HFK

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## Talon



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## Trailer23

xbat said:


> *are those guys work in a auto body shop?*


That's how we roll.

Pretty Gangsta, huh...

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## Windjammer

Sadly to this day, no one has been able to clearly explain to me that why do CFTs, which only supposedly carry fuel, need so many access panels. !!!

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## Windjammer

Hodor said:


> View attachment 813610


Albeit, the writing on it says 153 Litres but it doesn't look like a drop tank, more like a pod or even some weapon.....any idea what is the attachment under the wing.
@SQ8 @Hodor @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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## AMG_12

Windjammer said:


> Albeit, the writing on it says 153 Litres but it doesn't look like a drop tank, more like a pod or even some weapon.....any idea what is the attachment under the wing.
> @SQ8 @Hodor @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Smoke-winder

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> Albeit, the writing on it says 153 Litres but it doesn't look like a drop tank, more like a pod or even some weapon.....any idea what is the attachment under the wing.
> @SQ8 @Hodor @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Smokewinders

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## AeroEngineer

Windjammer said:


> Sadly to this day, no one has been able to clearly explain to me that why do CFTs, which only supposedly carry fuel, need so many access panels. !!!
> 
> View attachment 813654


From what I understand, these CFTs are bolted on to the fuselage. You need multiple attachment points both at/near the front and rear of the CFT and possibly middle to ensure the strongest of attachment that can withstand high-g maneuvering. These access panels allow the necessary room to insert and tighten all those bolts to the attachment points. I personally don’t have direct knowledge but from a mechanical point of view this would explain the need of multiple access panels. Specific skin panels are replaced with panels that have attachment mounts. The CFTs have complimentary attachment points that fit snugly with the skin attachment points. Bolts must then be used to lock the arrangement in place.


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## SQ8

Windjammer said:


> Albeit, the writing on it says 153 Litres but it doesn't look like a drop tank, more like a pod or even some weapon.....any idea what is the attachment under the wing.
> @SQ8 @Hodor @Bilal Khan (Quwa)


Smoke winder - display smoke
Says right there on it

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## TsAr

Hodor said:


> View attachment 813610


where was this pic taken and when any idea?

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## AeroEngineer

AeroEngineer said:


> From what I understand, these CFTs are bolted on to the fuselage. You need multiple attachment points both at/near the front and rear of the CFT and possibly middle to ensure the strongest of attachment that can withstand high-g maneuvering. These access panels allow the necessary room to insert and tighten all those bolts to the attachment points. I personally don’t have direct knowledge but from a mechanical point of view this would explain the need of multiple access panels. Specific skin panels are replaced with panels that have attachment mounts. The CFTs have complimentary attachment points that fit snugly with the skin attachment points. Bolts must then be used to lock the arrangement in place.


Found this about the CFT attachment points on the web. In fact it’s a good presentation on Block 52+ changes

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## Windjammer

SQ8 said:


> Smoke winder - display smoke
> Says right there on it


I'm in your former city for a few days so couldn't make it out on the small screen, anyways it seems to be former ACM ride for 23 March as the names under the canopy have been painted over.

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## Windjammer

Windjammer said:


> Sadly to this day, no one has been able to clearly explain to me that why do CFTs, which only supposedly carry fuel, need so many access panels. !!!
> 
> _*
> View attachment 813654
> *_


*Found something in relation to my query.*

There are 4 connections to the fuselage:

Called "Dry Bay", which is a panel that comes instead of a regular Access panel in the centre of the fuselage. It contains all the fuel connections. The smart thing is that you can choose if you want the dry bay, or just regular access panel.
Forward connector that includes 2 electric connections and a some kind of a hang screw.
Aft connector.
The gun panel, that must be removed in order to put the CFTs.

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## Gripen9

Windjammer said:


> I'm in your former city for a few days so couldn't make it out on the small screen, anyways it seems to be former ACM ride for* 23 March as the names under the canopy have been painted over*.


Usually the pilot names are printed under the canopy lower ledge and not on the fuselage.

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## Windjammer

Gripen9 said:


> Usually the pilot names are printed under the canopy lower ledge and not on the fuselage.


Just in front of the CFT.


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## Gripen9

Windjammer said:


> Just in front of the CFT.
> 
> View attachment 813815
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 813816

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## Trailer23

Gripen9 said:


> Usually the pilot names are printed under the canopy lower ledge and not on the fuselage.


Not necessarily...

@Windjammer is right.

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## Gripen9

Trailer23 said:


> Not necessarily...
> 
> @Windjammer is right.
> 
> View attachment 813818
> View attachment 813819


Overwritten on the warning?


----------



## Windjammer

Gripen9 said:


> Overwritten on the warning?


Here's another one,

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## Gripen9

Windjammer said:


> Here's another one,
> 
> View attachment 813821


This looks much "Authentic". Notice how the stencil prints "N" & "A"s.
On this one, 4 star are on the top, while on the other, they are below...
Guess PAF does not have a standard depends who has the paint & stencil


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## Trailer23

Gripen9 said:


> Overwritten on the warning?


Would you like the Official PAF Videos where I got those Screenshots from, for clarification?

Hey, its PAF - they do as they please. Who are we to question 'em...

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## Windjammer

Gripen9 said:


> This looks much "Authentic". Notice how the stencil prints "N" & "A"s.
> On this one, 4 star are on the top, while on the other, they are below...
> Guess PAF does not have a standard depends who has the paint & stencil


It's not a permanent feature, only stencilled for VIP flights.


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## Trailer23




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## Gripen9

Trailer23 said:


> Would you like the Official PAF Videos where I got those Screenshots from, for clarification?
> 
> Hey, its PAF - they do as they please. Who are we to question 'em...


No thank you keep them. It shouldn't be do as they please. Every process at least used to have a standard SOP.



Trailer23 said:


> View attachment 813824
> View attachment 813823


That is the proper way. Rank (Air Rank) above name.


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## HRK

AeroEngineer said:


> Found this about the CFT attachment points on the web. In fact it’s a good presentation on Block 52+ changes
> View attachment 813803


share the complete presentation if possible

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## The Eagle

Gripen9 said:


> Usually the pilot names are printed under the canopy lower ledge and not on the fuselage.



Name Placement changes due to CFT for dual seater. However, the ranks **** are printed for Chief(s) being onboard.


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## TNT

How much is the capacity of each CFT? Seems to be more than 1100L??


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## Trailer23

*Q.* These Air Intakes are only present on our Block 52's, right?
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Hodor @Windjammer







I've seen the *UAEAF Block 60* have them too👇.

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## AeroEngineer

HRK said:


> share the complete presentation if possible





Trailer23 said:


> *Q.* These Air Intakes are only present on our Block 52's, right?
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Hodor @Windjammer
> 
> View attachment 814030
> 
> 
> I've seen the *UAEAF Block 60* have them too👇.
> 
> View attachment 814031


According to some postings on F-16.net, the scoops were added from Block 30 onwards to cool the Advanced Self Protection Jammer.

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## Talon



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## Raja Porus



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## Trailer23

Desert Fox 1 said:


> View attachment 814219


Nice pic of the Block 52.

I was gonna crack a joke, but decided to hold back on it.
@Hodor

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## WiderMan

Part of the PAF contingent currently deployed to the AWC 🇸🇦

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## Raja Porus

WiderMan said:


> View attachment 814490
> 
> 
> Part of the PAF contingent currently deployed to the AWC 🇸🇦


I can see Noman Khan in the center

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## PanzerKiel

Desert Fox 1 said:


> I can see Noman Khan in the center


There are others present as well who participated in Swift Retort...rather many...

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## mshan44



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## AeroEngineer

HRK said:


> share the complete presentation if possible

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## SQ8

PanzerKiel said:


> There are others present as well who participated in Swift Retort...rather many...


Met one a few days ago - most of my time was spent lamenting what has happened to my beloved Islamabad and its traffic along with PWD turning into Saddar. 
However, that impact of the vipers going off EMCON and the F-16 symbols showing up on the Su-30s and M2k’s RWR cannot be understated. Apparently the tone of their pilots have a discernible nervousness in the intercepted comms. Now, “some say” that besides the vipers there were GBADs _operational_ that could have hit the IAF assets as well that day.. but then I’m in Karachi now and enjoying the norm of looking over my shoulder for any motorbike with more than one rider.

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## White privilege

For how much longer does the PAF intend to keep flying the original vipers?? How will PAF truly replace the F-16s??


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## Trailer23

White privilege said:


> For how much longer does the PAF intend to keep flying the original vipers?? How will PAF truly replace the F-16s??


Do you see any signs of the Mirages slowing down?

Even with the J-10's expected to join/joined the No. 15 Squadron (Cobras) - theirs are now moving to the newly inducted No. 50 Squadron.

It'll be a while before you'll see the demise of the Viper.

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## White privilege

Trailer23 said:


> Do you see any signs of the Mirages slowing down?
> 
> Even with the J-10's expected to join/joined the No. 15 Squadron (Cobras) - theirs are now moving to the newly inducted No. 50 Squadron.
> 
> It'll be a while before you'll see the demise of the Viper.


It does seem like PAF wants to fly the Viper for the next hundred years but it might need something like a ROSE.Have we thought of that....will Americans allow that??


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## SQ8

White privilege said:


> It does seem like PAF wants to fly the Viper for the next hundred years but it might need something like a ROSE.Have we thought of that....will Americans allow that??


Not possible as such for the F-16AM/BMs
F-16C/Ds can receive a block-72 update.
This will not be released even though discussions(including how and where the upgrade will be performed ) have been done.

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## White privilege

SQ8 said:


> Not possible as such for the F-16AM/BMs
> F-16C/Ds can receive a block-72 update.
> This will not be released even though discussions(including how and where the upgrade will be performed ) have been done.


Really...Are we going to just retire so many Vipers and sell them for scrap??


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## SQ8

White privilege said:


> Really...Are we going to just retire so many Vipers and sell them for scrap??


Yes
If their metal is stressed beyond refurbishment they are a danger to fly.

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## The Eagle

SQ8 said:


> PWD turning into Saddar.






SQ8 said:


> Karachi now and enjoying the norm of looking over my shoulder for any motorbike with more than one rider.



Loved it. Very true.


----------



## StormBreaker

SQ8 said:


> Karachi now and enjoying the norm of looking over my shoulder for any motorbike with more than one rider.


The instilled horror in KHI


----------



## Ali_Baba

The Mirages are mostly mechanical planes and therefore maintaining them for this long as PAF has, has been manageable - however the F16s are far more electrical and electronic and therefore more tied into how long the manufacturer will support them with spare parts and support maintenance. The electronics are not as interchangeable or swappable in the same mix-and-match approach that the PAF has taken to keep the Mirages going.

PAF will not be able to repeat the Mirage "design pattern/appraoch" of procurement and maintenance on the F16 fleet - regardless of the politics being favourable or not.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

F-16 Fleet likely will be main stream till 2030 easily
Unlike the smartphones the F-16 is not downloading patches and upgrades
Nor they are running windows xp or Windows 10 , to run main Flying components , which means they will have compatibility issues

Electronic components normally easily have a shelf life *8-15 years*
Wiring is 100% replaceable, engine of course has a shelf life or number of hours
Depends on how often you fly the F16 (Servicing / Your ground Engineering Team's effort)

Since the machines are serviced regularly the planes will keep flying easily for 8+ Years

Should there be *V-Pack upgrade* on fleet then of course the fleet can easily go 15+ years
*Engine Spares would be idea for keeping the F16 C/D fleet flying optimum levels*
Should a Viper Grade Upgrade become available , for the entire fleet with spare engines
then the bird is easily with PAF for long while

Since 2005-2007 deals negotiated by Musharraf Sahib , there has been no substantial progress on the F16 Modernization , only Chatter about possible *F16 Fleet Modernization Package *


However an *add of 18 F16-V *models would be welcomed
*Upgrade of existing 75 Units* , to *V standard* would be welcomed upgrade



As we know Both Egypt and Turkey fly large fleet of F16 beyond 100 units , so there is no reason why the Pakistani Jet count can't exceed 100 units for F16, recently Turkey has requested more F16 to augment it's fleet, Jordan did also get new F16 announced


----------



## Scorpiooo

Can we hear some news in regards of F16 in current visit of Gen Bajwa to USA


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## Windjammer



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## ziaulislam

White privilege said:


> Really...Are we going to just retire so many Vipers and sell them for scrap??


Why is this shocking?
We prematurely retired previou american fighters for lack of spares too

Failure of diplomacy to get more used fighters but anyway

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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> Why is this shocking?
> We prematurely retired previou american fighters for lack of spares too
> 
> Failure of diplomacy to get more used fighters but anyway



Hi,

Supposedly PAF the first force to retire the F-104's----?????


----------



## GriffinsRule

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Supposedly PAF the first force to retire the F-104's----?????


Retiring less than 10 aircraft of a type is not the same as 70+


----------



## Windjammer



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## SQ8

Scorpiooo said:


> Can we hear some news in regards of F16 in current visit of Gen Bajwa to USA


Yes - the news will be that nothing will happen.

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## Raider 21

A privately-owned F-16A Block 10 in Arizona, USA. Aircraft was formerly with Israel AF.

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## White privilege

Raider 21 said:


> View attachment 815718
> 
> A privately-owned F-16A Block 10 in Arizona, USA. Aircraft was formerly with Israel AF.


The second amendment...


----------



## Raider 21

White privilege said:


> The second amendment...


Negative. It is being used as Red Air for exercises.


----------



## Trailer23



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## SQ8

Scorpiooo said:


> Can we hear some news in regards of F16 in current visit of Gen Bajwa to USA


Yes - the news will be that nothing will happen.


Raider 21 said:


> View attachment 815718
> 
> A privately-owned F-16A Block 10 in Arizona, USA. Aircraft was formerly with Israel AF.


I think the other company (is it Top Aces or this belongs to them) has the better lead since it bought the MLU ones from Belgium.

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## Raider 21

SQ8 said:


> Yes - the news will be that nothing will happen.
> 
> I think the other company (is it Top Aces or this belongs to them) has the better lead since it bought the MLU ones from Belgium.


Top Aces owns these particular Vipers and have already started fielding them.





The other company's MLU ones would take more time to convert in terms of paperwork for civilian ownership to provide government services.


----------



## SQ8

Raider 21 said:


> Top Aces owns these particular Vipers and have already started fielding them.
> 
> The other company's MLU ones would take more time to convert in terms of paperwork for civilian ownership to provide government services.


I think these went through that process already - although not sure if the process was easier to them being a thoroughly obsolete system versus the MLUs


----------



## mshan44



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## White privilege

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 816812


What's that bag thingy for anyway??


----------



## Engima Chaudhry

White privilege said:


> What's that bag thingy for anyway??


Helmet and pilots personal things.


----------



## Trailer23

White privilege said:


> What's that bag thingy for anyway??


*Helmet Bag




*​


mshan44 said:


> View attachment 816812


*Wg Cdr. Usman Saeed of No. 9 Sqn (Griffins).*

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## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> *Helmet Bag
> 
> View attachment 816876
> *​
> *Wg Cdr. Usman Saeed of No. 9 Sqn (Griffins).*


Patches courtesy @Trailer23 himself

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## Trailer23

Hodor said:


> Patches courtesy @Trailer23 himself


Yes Sir,
Recently designed a few more for: Griffins, Arrows & Aggressors.

Not in bulk obviously.

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## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> Yes Sir,
> Recently designed a few more for: Griffins, Arrows & Aggressors.
> 
> Not in bulk obviously.


Show me if possible


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## Trailer23

Hodor said:


> Show me if possible


Still in Production. The guy is taking his time, so I only have them on Computer Design. One is for 'ACE INSTRUCTOR'.

Hopefully, they'll be done by the 23rd or 24th.

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## GriffinsRule

US Thunderbirds close call during formation flying. #6 jet corrected aggressively to avoid a collision with the other jet in formation as the transition was not as smooth but is able to rejoin formation.

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## Raja Porus

GriffinsRule said:


> US Thunderbirds close call during formation flying. #6 jet corrected aggressively to avoid a collision with the other jet in formation as the transition was not as smooth but is able to rejoin formation.


Don't you think he freaked out a bit over reacted?
Btw I like the way the commentator covered it up.

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## Raider 21

Desert Fox 1 said:


> Don't you think he freaked out a bit over reacted?
> Btw I like the way the commentator covered it up.


Negative. No. 1 (Leader) rolled out faster than he should have which affected the whole formation. 

No. 6 did exactly as they had briefed for in case this ever happened. USAF Thunderbirds are very critical in their briefs and debriefs. They take safety very seriously. No. 1 would be given a debrief, irrespective of his rank by the junior pilots. And they do it in a manner where everyone agrees that it could have happened by any one of them.

I'm unaware of the Thunderbirds, but the Blue Angels in their debriefs use the term "Glad to be hear" underlying them being fortunate enough to learn from their mistakes and appreciate the fact that they are doing an assignment that itself is privileged to certain individuals in a profession that is desired by thousands but handed to a few.

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## Raja Porus

None can match its beauty

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## Trailer23

*F-16 Viper: The Best Non-Stealth Fighter Jet Ever? You Decide*​*By Eli Fuhrman*
*July 23, 2021*




The F-16 Fighting Falcon is one of the world’s most successful and combat-proven military aircraft to ever fly. F-16s in operation with militaries worldwide have now collectively taken part in more than 400,000 combat sorties and have logged a combined 19 million flight hours. Today, the air services of 25 different militaries worldwide continue to operate F-16s with roughly 3,000 Fighting Falcons still operational. The United States Air Force itself operates more F-16s than any other type of aircraft as part of its fighter fleet. The success and the longevity of the F-16 can be attributed both to its reliance and combat capabilities and to its impressive cost-effectiveness, with the Falcon coming in at a significantly reduced cost compared to its larger fourth-generation counterpart in the F-15.

Its proven track record and cost efficiency have allowed the F-16 to soldier on even in the face of the continued proliferation of more modern fifth-generation stealth fighter aircraft. To ensure that this remains the case, the F-16 is receiving upgrades that will allow it to remain competitive in the air for years to come. Moving beyond the C/D variants of the aircraft that have become commonplace in many air forces around the world, the newest generation of F-16s – labeled the F-16V or “Viper” – are incorporating a number of technological enhancements that will further improve the F-16s combat capabilities.

*Here Comes the F-16 Viper*

Revealed for the first time in 2012, the Lockheed Martin F-16 Viper makes use of advanced technology leveraged from advanced fifth-generation fighters such as the F-35 and F-22 as a means to improve the F-16V’s interoperability with these aircraft. Perhaps the most significant upgrade incorporated by the F-16 Viper is the installation of the advanced Northrup Grumman APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, which gives the F-16V fifth-generation radar capabilities. The addition of the APG-83 AESA radar affords F-16 pilots greatly enhanced situational awareness by granting greater detection and tracking ranges along with the ability to track more than 20 sperate targets at a time, while also producing high-resolution Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) maps for precision strike operations in all types of environments and offering greatly increased system reliability.

Along with the upgraded radar capabilities, F-16 Vipers are also outfitted with a modern commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) avionics subsystem, an improved Center Pedestal Display (CPD), and an upgraded data bus.

The F-16 Viper is powered by a single Pratt & Whitney engine, and the aircraft has a maximum speed of Mach two alone with a maximum range of 1,740 nautical miles. The Viper is capable of being equipped with a variety of air-to-air weapons systems, and is also able to be outfitted for air-to-ground strikes with both tactical missiles and laser-guided bombs.

The F-16 Viper can either be produced itself or offered as an upgrade package for existing F-16s. To date, a number of countries have ordered either newly produced F-16 Vipers or the upgrade package, including Taiwan, Bahrain, and Bulgaria.

While clearly no fighter jet is perfect, any air force around the world that cannot afford say the F-35 and wants to avoid Russia’s latest weaponry the F-16 Viper seems like a world-class choice.

*Link:* F-16 Viper: The Best Non-Stealth Fighter Jet Ever? You Decide
@Hodor @Windjammer @Raider 21 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal. @SQ8 @GriffinsRule @iLION12345_1 @Path-Finder @Stealth @Yasser76 @ziaulislam

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## GriffinsRule

Trailer23 said:


> *F-16 Viper: The Best Non-Stealth Fighter Jet Ever? You Decide*​*By Eli Fuhrman*
> *July 23, 2021*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The F-16 Fighting Falcon is one of the world’s most successful and combat-proven military aircraft to ever fly. F-16s in operation with militaries worldwide have now collectively taken part in more than 400,000 combat sorties and have logged a combined 19 million flight hours. Today, the air services of 25 different militaries worldwide continue to operate F-16s with roughly 3,000 Fighting Falcons still operational. The United States Air Force itself operates more F-16s than any other type of aircraft as part of its fighter fleet. The success and the longevity of the F-16 can be attributed both to its reliance and combat capabilities and to its impressive cost-effectiveness, with the Falcon coming in at a significantly reduced cost compared to its larger fourth-generation counterpart in the F-15.
> 
> Its proven track record and cost efficiency have allowed the F-16 to soldier on even in the face of the continued proliferation of more modern fifth-generation stealth fighter aircraft. To ensure that this remains the case, the F-16 is receiving upgrades that will allow it to remain competitive in the air for years to come. Moving beyond the C/D variants of the aircraft that have become commonplace in many air forces around the world, the newest generation of F-16s – labeled the F-16V or “Viper” – are incorporating a number of technological enhancements that will further improve the F-16s combat capabilities.
> 
> *Here Comes the F-16 Viper*
> 
> Revealed for the first time in 2012, the Lockheed Martin F-16 Viper makes use of advanced technology leveraged from advanced fifth-generation fighters such as the F-35 and F-22 as a means to improve the F-16V’s interoperability with these aircraft. Perhaps the most significant upgrade incorporated by the F-16 Viper is the installation of the advanced Northrup Grumman APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, which gives the F-16V fifth-generation radar capabilities. The addition of the APG-83 AESA radar affords F-16 pilots greatly enhanced situational awareness by granting greater detection and tracking ranges along with the ability to track more than 20 sperate targets at a time, while also producing high-resolution Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) maps for precision strike operations in all types of environments and offering greatly increased system reliability.
> 
> Along with the upgraded radar capabilities, F-16 Vipers are also outfitted with a modern commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) avionics subsystem, an improved Center Pedestal Display (CPD), and an upgraded data bus.
> 
> The F-16 Viper is powered by a single Pratt & Whitney engine, and the aircraft has a maximum speed of Mach two alone with a maximum range of 1,740 nautical miles. The Viper is capable of being equipped with a variety of air-to-air weapons systems, and is also able to be outfitted for air-to-ground strikes with both tactical missiles and laser-guided bombs.
> 
> The F-16 Viper can either be produced itself or offered as an upgrade package for existing F-16s. To date, a number of countries have ordered either newly produced F-16 Vipers or the upgrade package, including Taiwan, Bahrain, and Bulgaria.
> 
> While clearly no fighter jet is perfect, any air force around the world that cannot afford say the F-35 and wants to avoid Russia’s latest weaponry the F-16 Viper seems like a world-class choice.
> 
> *Link:* F-16 Viper: The Best Non-Stealth Fighter Jet Ever? You Decide
> @Hodor @Windjammer @Raider 21 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal. @SQ8 @GriffinsRule @iLION12345_1 @Path-Finder @Stealth @Yasser76 @ziaulislam


Without a doubt


----------



## Windjammer

Trailer23 said:


> *F-16 Viper: The Best Non-Stealth Fighter Jet Ever? You Decide*​*By Eli Fuhrman*
> *July 23, 2021*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The F-16 Fighting Falcon is one of the world’s most successful and combat-proven military aircraft to ever fly. F-16s in operation with militaries worldwide have now collectively taken part in more than 400,000 combat sorties and have logged a combined 19 million flight hours. Today, the air services of 25 different militaries worldwide continue to operate F-16s with roughly 3,000 Fighting Falcons still operational. The United States Air Force itself operates more F-16s than any other type of aircraft as part of its fighter fleet. The success and the longevity of the F-16 can be attributed both to its reliance and combat capabilities and to its impressive cost-effectiveness, with the Falcon coming in at a significantly reduced cost compared to its larger fourth-generation counterpart in the F-15.
> 
> Its proven track record and cost efficiency have allowed the F-16 to soldier on even in the face of the continued proliferation of more modern fifth-generation stealth fighter aircraft. To ensure that this remains the case, the F-16 is receiving upgrades that will allow it to remain competitive in the air for years to come. Moving beyond the C/D variants of the aircraft that have become commonplace in many air forces around the world, the newest generation of F-16s – labeled the F-16V or “Viper” – are incorporating a number of technological enhancements that will further improve the F-16s combat capabilities.
> 
> *Here Comes the F-16 Viper*
> 
> Revealed for the first time in 2012, the Lockheed Martin F-16 Viper makes use of advanced technology leveraged from advanced fifth-generation fighters such as the F-35 and F-22 as a means to improve the F-16V’s interoperability with these aircraft. Perhaps the most significant upgrade incorporated by the F-16 Viper is the installation of the advanced Northrup Grumman APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, which gives the F-16V fifth-generation radar capabilities. The addition of the APG-83 AESA radar affords F-16 pilots greatly enhanced situational awareness by granting greater detection and tracking ranges along with the ability to track more than 20 sperate targets at a time, while also producing high-resolution Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) maps for precision strike operations in all types of environments and offering greatly increased system reliability.
> 
> Along with the upgraded radar capabilities, F-16 Vipers are also outfitted with a modern commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) avionics subsystem, an improved Center Pedestal Display (CPD), and an upgraded data bus.
> 
> The F-16 Viper is powered by a single Pratt & Whitney engine, and the aircraft has a maximum speed of Mach two alone with a maximum range of 1,740 nautical miles. The Viper is capable of being equipped with a variety of air-to-air weapons systems, and is also able to be outfitted for air-to-ground strikes with both tactical missiles and laser-guided bombs.
> 
> The F-16 Viper can either be produced itself or offered as an upgrade package for existing F-16s. To date, a number of countries have ordered either newly produced F-16 Vipers or the upgrade package, including Taiwan, Bahrain, and Bulgaria.
> 
> While clearly no fighter jet is perfect, any air force around the world that cannot afford say the F-35 and wants to avoid Russia’s latest weaponry the F-16 Viper seems like a world-class choice.
> 
> *Link:* F-16 Viper: The Best Non-Stealth Fighter Jet Ever? You Decide
> @Hodor @Windjammer @Raider 21 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal. @SQ8 @GriffinsRule @iLION12345_1 @Path-Finder @Stealth @Yasser76 @ziaulislam


After over 40 years of operational service, still nothing turns heads like the turning and burning Viper.....I for one hope that PAF manages to acquire some more of this legendary aircraft.

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## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


> After over 40 years of operational service, still nothing turns heads like the turning and burning Viper.....I for one hope that PAF manages to acquire some more of this legendary aircraft.


You & me (both)

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## Metal 0-1

Trailer23 said:


> *F-16 Viper: The Best Non-Stealth Fighter Jet Ever? You Decide*​*By Eli Fuhrman*
> *July 23, 2021*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The F-16 Fighting Falcon is one of the world’s most successful and combat-proven military aircraft to ever fly. F-16s in operation with militaries worldwide have now collectively taken part in more than 400,000 combat sorties and have logged a combined 19 million flight hours. Today, the air services of 25 different militaries worldwide continue to operate F-16s with roughly 3,000 Fighting Falcons still operational. The United States Air Force itself operates more F-16s than any other type of aircraft as part of its fighter fleet. The success and the longevity of the F-16 can be attributed both to its reliance and combat capabilities and to its impressive cost-effectiveness, with the Falcon coming in at a significantly reduced cost compared to its larger fourth-generation counterpart in the F-15.
> 
> Its proven track record and cost efficiency have allowed the F-16 to soldier on even in the face of the continued proliferation of more modern fifth-generation stealth fighter aircraft. To ensure that this remains the case, the F-16 is receiving upgrades that will allow it to remain competitive in the air for years to come. Moving beyond the C/D variants of the aircraft that have become commonplace in many air forces around the world, the newest generation of F-16s – labeled the F-16V or “Viper” – are incorporating a number of technological enhancements that will further improve the F-16s combat capabilities.
> 
> *Here Comes the F-16 Viper*
> 
> Revealed for the first time in 2012, the Lockheed Martin F-16 Viper makes use of advanced technology leveraged from advanced fifth-generation fighters such as the F-35 and F-22 as a means to improve the F-16V’s interoperability with these aircraft. Perhaps the most significant upgrade incorporated by the F-16 Viper is the installation of the advanced Northrup Grumman APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, which gives the F-16V fifth-generation radar capabilities. The addition of the APG-83 AESA radar affords F-16 pilots greatly enhanced situational awareness by granting greater detection and tracking ranges along with the ability to track more than 20 sperate targets at a time, while also producing high-resolution Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) maps for precision strike operations in all types of environments and offering greatly increased system reliability.
> 
> Along with the upgraded radar capabilities, F-16 Vipers are also outfitted with a modern commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) avionics subsystem, an improved Center Pedestal Display (CPD), and an upgraded data bus.
> 
> The F-16 Viper is powered by a single Pratt & Whitney engine, and the aircraft has a maximum speed of Mach two alone with a maximum range of 1,740 nautical miles. The Viper is capable of being equipped with a variety of air-to-air weapons systems, and is also able to be outfitted for air-to-ground strikes with both tactical missiles and laser-guided bombs.
> 
> The F-16 Viper can either be produced itself or offered as an upgrade package for existing F-16s. To date, a number of countries have ordered either newly produced F-16 Vipers or the upgrade package, including Taiwan, Bahrain, and Bulgaria.
> 
> While clearly no fighter jet is perfect, any air force around the world that cannot afford say the F-35 and wants to avoid Russia’s latest weaponry the F-16 Viper seems like a world-class choice.
> 
> *Link:* F-16 Viper: The Best Non-Stealth Fighter Jet Ever? You Decide
> @Hodor @Windjammer @Raider 21 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal. @SQ8 @GriffinsRule @iLION12345_1 @Path-Finder @Stealth @Yasser76 @ziaulislam




F-15 🤙🏻


----------



## Trailer23

Metal 0-1 said:


> F-15 🤙🏻


F-15 comes in at a respectable 2nd. Could be considered as the winner among the Losers.

Losers always talk about doing their Best. Winners (Viper) go home with the Prom Queen.

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## Metal 0-1

That's cute but facts don't care about feelings.

102:0

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## Trailer23

Metal 0-1 said:


> That's cute but facts don't care about feelings.
> 
> 102:0


First off, the F-15's haven't seen much combat in other Air Forces - other than USAF. I mean seriously, who are we talking about. South Korea, Japan, Israel & KSA. Seriously..., that's the list you're gonna put up against the Viper which is across the board. The List itself looks like the Bronze Medalist in the Special Olympics.

You wanna refresh that score, maybe...










​I'm sure you'd throw the !srael Air Force & their might into the mix, but have they EVER done anything worth bragging with the Eagle in any War/Battle?
​During Operation Desert Storm, the F-16 was the first to perform strikes in Iraq & held the record of 25% of strikes, alone.

It was used a great deal in the Kosovo, Iraq & Afghanistan.

...and as someone who has spent a great deal of time at Military Bases like Bagram, Kandahar in Afghanistan & quite a few in Iraq - I don't recall seeing that many F-15's.

And i'm pretty certain there aren't many people on [PDF] that have - with the exception of @PradoTLC

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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> First off, the F-15's haven't seen much combat in other Air Forces - other than USAF. I mean seriously, who are we talking about. South Korea, Japan, Israel & KSA. Seriously..., that's the list you're gonna put up against the Viper which is across the board. The List itself looks like the Bronze Medalist in the Special Olympics.
> 
> You wanna refresh that score, maybe...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​I'm sure you'd throw the !srael Air Force & their might into the mix, but have they EVER done anything worth bragging with the Eagle in any War/Battle?
> ​During Operation Desert Storm, the F-16 was the first to perform strikes in Iraq & held the record of 25% of strikes, alone.
> 
> It was used a great deal in the Kosovo, Iraq & Afghanistan.
> 
> ...and as someone who has spent a great deal of time at Military Bases like Bagram, Kandahar in Afghanistan & quite a few in Iraq - I don't recall seeing that many F-15's.
> 
> And i'm pretty certain there aren't many people on [PDF] that have - with the exception of @PradoTLC


By the time you were at those bases, many F-15 squadrons were at Qatar and currently UAE.

Saudi Arabia, USAF, Israel all contributed to the 102-0 with Israel taking the most and yes Israel has done a lot in terms of WVR and BVR with the conventional Eagle platforms.

Yet like you said the F-16 has more combat exposure due to it being fielded by more with its multirole mission objectives.

The F-15 wins hands down in air to air combat kills.

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## Trailer23

Raider 21 said:


> By the time you were at those bases, many F-15 squadrons were at Qatar and currently UAE.
> 
> Saudi Arabia, USAF, Israel all contributed to the 102-0 with Israel taking the most and yes Israel has done a lot in terms of WVR and BVR with the conventional Eagle platforms.
> 
> Yet like you said the F-16 has more combat exposure due to it being fielded by more with its multirole mission objectives.
> 
> The F-15 wins hands down in air to air combat kills.


I was at those Bases from 2006 to 2012.

I find it hard to believe that once the so-called War on Terror started in 2001, the Eagles had moved out in less than 5 Years.


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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> I was at those Bases from 2006 to 2012.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that once the so-called War on Terror started in 2001, the Eagles had moved out in less than 5 Years.


War on Terror is very much real, Pak Armed Forces felt the brunt of it in Pakistan and the country you call home these days have participated in it numerous times.

Regarding Strike Eagles and even legacy Eagles, I was at Isa AB (2013-2014). There were Expeditionary Squadrons on rotations to Dhafra and Udeid (*not sure about how many would end up at Bagram but at the time they had A-10s and F-16s going back and forth*). And on some occasions they would come to Isa. Once we had our equipment room shared with a visiting USAF squadron calling themselves the Rocketeers, an entire F-15E unit with a few non-Americans attached. They would fly out to Afghanistan and recover back at UAE or Qatar. 

*Yet back on the post, F-16 is one of the best and combat proven aircraft ever produced. Seen good action exactly 3 years ago in the Indo-Pak region. *

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## WiderMan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1497930291528142849

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## Windjammer

Credits : HFK

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## baqai

Metal 0-1 said:


> That's cute but facts don't care about feelings.
> 
> 102:0



lets see how F-15s score against a real enemy who knows and can shoot back

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## GriffinsRule



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## Iceman2

Does anybody have link to ptv world program on jf-17 block 3


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## Windjammer

PAF Spearhead.

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## blain2

Metal 0-1 said:


> That's cute but facts don't care about feelings.
> 
> 102:0


the 102-0 during the war of attrition cannot just be attributed to the F-15s. Keep in mind that F-15s armed with Sparrows were flying under the cover of E-2C Hawkeyes in the IDFAF service. The poor Syrian aircraft did not even have an air intercept radar on them let alone their own OTH radar coverage to counter the dominance of the IDF. This is akin to current 4.5 generation aircraft going up in the air against the F-22s.

If there was ever a case of a completely one-sided turkey shoot in contemporary air warfare, it has to be the Israeli-Syrian war of attrition when most of these 102 kills were recorded.

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## Raider 21

blain2 said:


> the 102-0 during the war of attrition cannot just be attributed to the F-15s. Keep in mind that F-15s armed with Sparrows were flying under the cover of E-2C Hawkeyes in the IDFAF service. The poor Syrian aircraft did not even have an air intercept radar on them let alone their own OTH radar coverage to counter the dominance of the IDF. This is akin to current 4.5 generation aircraft going up in the air against the F-22s.
> 
> If there was ever a case of a completely one-sided turkey shoot in contemporary air warfare, it has to be the Israeli-Syrian war of attrition when most of these 102 kills were recorded.


And good for them. Eagles rule!!!

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## blain2

Raider 21 said:


> And good for them. Eagles rule!!!


 I like the Eagle too!

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## Windjammer

Call Sign,,,, Gambler-1

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## Ek620

Windjammer said:


> Call Sign,,,, Gambler-1
> 
> View attachment 820851


Is that his call sign before or after 27th feb


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## Windjammer

Ek620 said:


> Is that his call sign before or after 27th feb


I guess that is his original call Sign as same was conveyed when he toasted the SU-30.

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## Windjammer

Almost that time of the Year.

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## Scorpiooo

After J10 induction load on F16 may reduce and PAF will reduce there flying hours to expend there lifetime


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## Talon

Don't know if this has been shared before but here's the first PAF female pilot of the F-16






While on the topic, another lady from engineering branch

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## SQ8

Hodor said:


> Don't know if this has been shared before but here's the first PAF female pilot of the F-16
> 
> View attachment 821456
> 
> 
> While on the topic, another lady from engineering branch
> 
> View attachment 821457


That’s very interesting(and good to see). The initial impressions of female pilots being confined to F-7s and then posted to auxiliary or transport squadrons seems to be moving forward slowly. However the issue of recovery after pregnancy and recouping of the asset will remain especially with Pakistani culture but hopefully these women will break through.

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## Raider 21

Hodor said:


> Don't know if this has been shared before but here's the first PAF female pilot of the F-16
> 
> View attachment 821456
> 
> 
> While on the topic, another lady from engineering branch
> 
> View attachment 821457

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## mingle

Raider 21 said:


>


Bolhari??


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## Raja Porus

Hodor said:


> Don't know if this has been shared before but here's the first PAF female pilot of the F-16
> 
> View attachment 821456
> 
> 
> While on the topic, another lady from engineering branch
> 
> View attachment 821457


Ladies log also flying F16s...way to go.

Isn't the second picture of a Turkish lady?

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## Talon

SQ8 said:


> That’s very interesting(and good to see). The initial impressions of female pilots being confined to F-7s and then posted to auxiliary or transport squadrons seems to be moving forward slowly. However the issue of recovery after pregnancy and recouping of the asset will remain especially with Pakistani culture but hopefully these women will break through.


Yes I agree, most women are either grounded or sent to slow flying if they are lucky.



Desert Fox 1 said:


> Ladies log also flying F16s...way to go.
> 
> Isn't the second picture of a Turkish lady?


No, she's a Pakistani wearing Turaf patch

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## ghazi52

..





A female pilot from Pakistan Air Force flying an ADF F-16 Fighting Falcon ...
Eisha
F16 fighter pilot.........

P.C :- ARY Live


.

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## Windjammer



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## Trailer23

ghazi52 said:


> ..
> View attachment 821654
> 
> 
> A female pilot from Pakistan Air Force flying an ADF F-16 Fighting Falcon ...
> Eisha
> F16 fighter pilot.........
> 
> P.C :- ARY Live
> 
> 
> .


Last year she became the first female pilot on the JF-17B with the Sharp Shooters.

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## Scorpiooo

Its good that our daughters will fly elite fighter jet in coming years


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## Talon

Trailer23 said:


> Last year she became the first female pilot on the JF-17B with the Sharp Shooters.
> 
> View attachment 821705
> 
> 
> View attachment 821708​


TROLL LEVEL : Pakistan Air Force

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501295051678404619

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## Bleek

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1501295051678404619


Wait till the J-10C gets its first kill, Viper fanboys will fall in love


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## ghazi52

...
The right way to board your fighter aircraft ...
.





.....

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## Windjammer

Team Aggressor.

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## ghazi52

.....
Over Islamabad......





.......

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## ghazi52

...
Sound of Freedom...!
.




..........

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## Windjammer

According to well placed PAF sources, the Block-52 during it's role in WOT, exceeded all expectations and the Agni Pankh Patils prefer to stay well clear from it when it's doing CAP on LOC.

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## Raja Porus

an F16 pilot looks enviously at the J10s as he escorts them in the Paksitani Airspace

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## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502314433221124096

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## AMRAAM

Desert Fox 1 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1502314433221124096



Unless he launches PL-10E at 90 degrees using HMD.

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## Scorpiooo

Now J10 cat is out of box, lets see what is fate of our F16s, do PAF go for V upgrades for our jets or not in future


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## Raider 21

Desert Fox 1 said:


> View attachment 822953
> an F16 pilot looks enviously at the J10s as he escorts them in the Paksitani Airspace


A Viper driver escorting a former Viper driver back into Pak airspace

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## White privilege

Desert Fox 1 said:


> View attachment 822953
> an F16 pilot looks enviously at the J10s as he escorts them in the Paksitani Airspace


Plot twist: _He is piloting the J-10 *remotely....*_😁👍


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## Windjammer

Sometimes it seems as F-16 was designed for the PAF.

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## Scorpiooo

Windjammer said:


> Sometimes it seems as F-16 was designed for the PAF.
> 
> View attachment 823445


Thanks God atleast PAF baba jee start moving on from there love of life F16s

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## Yasser76

Scorpiooo said:


> Thanks God atleast PAF baba jee start moving on from there love of life F16s




True. Now I can bet the USAF/USN would be begging us for training exercises with the J-10C....


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## blain2

Yasser76 said:


> True. Now I can bet the USAF/USN would be begging us for training exercises with the J-10C....


Why? They don't need to train against yet another 4.5 generation aircraft. Their posture has moved to employment of 5th generation aircraft.


Windjammer said:


> According to well placed PAF sources, the Block-52 during it's role in WOT, exceeded all expectations and the Agni Pankh Patils prefer to stay well clear from it when it's doing CAP on LOC.
> 
> View attachment 822706


Why only block 52s? All of the PAF F-16s are flying the same spec. in terms of avionics, EW and weapons.

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## Windjammer

blain2 said:


> Why only block 52s? All of the PAF F-16s are flying the same spec. in terms of avionics, EW and weapons.


With CFTs it has certain advantages.....doesn't need drop tanks so it can carry extra specialised weapons or more loiter time.

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## Windjammer

When i first saw this image, i thought it's PS....and it must be of USAF SR-71 pilot but then realised that it was a PAF Viper Driver geared up for a special delivery.

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## mingle

Scorpiooo said:


> Thanks God atleast PAF baba jee start moving on from there love of life F16s


F16 would be last US fighter in PAF time to move on

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## Scorpiooo

mingle said:


> F16 would be last US fighter in PAF time to move on


That is true, lets see is PAF over with F16 saga or still remains behind it in coming years

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## Ali_Baba

Windjammer said:


> Sometimes it seems as F-16 was designed for the PAF.
> 
> View attachment 823445



> Agree - was perfect for PAF - it was and is a shame that it was never allowed to achieve its full potential in PAF service.


----------



## Trailer23

Windjammer said:


> When i first saw this image, i thought it's PS....and it must be of USAF SR-71 pilot but then realised that it was a PAF Viper Driver geared up for a special delivery.
> 
> View attachment 823509

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## baqai

Windjammer said:


> When i first saw this image, i thought it's PS....and it must be of USAF SR-71 pilot but then realised that it was a PAF Viper Driver geared up for a special delivery.
> 
> View attachment 823509
> 
> 
> View attachment 823511



i think during maritime missions or missions in area of snow it is a norm to wear this high visibility suit to make it easier to spot in case of an eject

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## mingle

Scorpiooo said:


> That is true, lets see is PAF over with F16 saga or still remains behind it in coming years


I doubt now with induction of J10C they will spend that Money to induct more J10s I believe F16 blk 52 will be last westren jet in PAF

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## Bratva

So it got me thinking when @PanzerKiel said about Gambler-1 Wing Commander Hassan Siddique



PanzerKiel said:


> Cmon man, i cant be part of spooks....I was just highlighting what Gambler 1 did....for which he was penalized.





PanzerKiel said:


> Yes, it will probably effect. Thats how it works in our region.



Then @Trailer23 Posted the below thing



Trailer23 said:


> Griffins OC - Wg Cdr. Usman Niazi escorted the J-10's himself.
> 
> View attachment 823022​




So Wing Commander Hassan Siddique is not OC No.5 , No.9 or No.11 . An ace with SU-30 kill under his belt who passed CCS and was made WC isn't made OC of any famed F-16 squadrons ? 

So his offence was of that magnitude he is being passed for OC post and it appears he will be forced to take retirement from either Wing Commander rank or Group Captain rank (if he gets lucky) or Air Commodore ( If Bengali Baba helps him in promotion). He will not be progressing to AVM or AM rank like Mig Killer or The H-4 Shooter who both are Group Captain right now

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## Trailer23

Bratva said:


> So Wing Commander Hassan Siddique is not OC No.5 , No.9 or No.11 . An ace with SU-30 kill under his belt who passed CCS and was made WC isn't made OC of any famed F-16 squadrons ?
> 
> So his offence was of that magnitude he is being passed for OC post and it appears he will be forced to take retirement from either Wing Commander rank or Group Captain rank (if he gets lucky) or Air Commodore ( If Bengali Baba helps him in promotion). He will not be progressing to AVM or AM rank like Mig Killer or The H-4 Shooter who both are Group Captain right now


I'll get back to you in the morning...


----------



## Raider 21

Ali_Baba said:


> > Agree - was perfect for PAF - it was and is a shame that it was never allowed to achieve its full potential in PAF service.


It did a lot and did indeed achieve its full potential for what it has been provided with. The country is safer because of its presence in the region.

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## blain2

Bratva said:


> So it got me thinking when @PanzerKiel said about Gambler-1 Wing Commander Hassan Siddique
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then @Trailer23 Posted the below thing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So Wing Commander Hassan Siddique is not OC No.5 , No.9 or No.11 . An ace with SU-30 kill under his belt who passed CCS and was made WC isn't made OC of any famed F-16 squadrons ?
> 
> So his offence was of that magnitude he is being passed for OC post and it appears he will be forced to take retirement from either Wing Commander rank or Group Captain rank (if he gets lucky) or Air Commodore ( If Bengali Baba helps him in promotion). He will not be progressing to AVM or AM rank like Mig Killer or The H-4 Shooter who both are Group Captain right now


One call out. He is not an "ace". In the fighter pilot world, I believe the word "ace" carries a very specific meaning alluding to a pilot having shot down at least "5" adversary aircraft.

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## Scorpiooo

mingle said:


> I doubt now with induction of J10C they will spend that Money to induct more J10s I believe F16 blk 52 will be last westren jet in PAF


Seems like that, but we know PAF love for F16, they cant afford new ones but EDA with V updates or V update for existing block 52 alway on card in limited numbers.
Becuz J10 are replacing role of mirages and F16 will replaced with any 5th generation jet so till that time they want there F16 to up to power indian rafales

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## Zibago

mingle said:


> F16 would be last US fighter in PAF time to move on


That is true and I also think that unless there is some real thaw in relationship between US and Pakistan I dont think US would be interested in even selling us used F-16

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## Scorpiooo

Zibago said:


> That is true and I also think that unless there is some real thaw in relationship between US and Pakistan I dont think US would be interested in even selling us used F-16


They will , otherwise they will loose the strings with thay they control our F16 use will be eventually lost, we will totally move to eastern


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## Zibago

Scorpiooo said:


> They will , otherwise they will loose the strings with thay they control our F16 use will be eventually lost, we will totally move to eastern


They refused to even allow sale of downgraded Iraqi F-16 that the Iraqis have a troubling in keeping airworthy


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## Scorpiooo

Bratva said:


> So it got me thinking when @PanzerKiel said about Gambler-1 Wing Commander Hassan Siddique
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then @Trailer23 Posted the below thing
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So Wing Commander Hassan Siddique is not OC No.5 , No.9 or No.11 . An ace with SU-30 kill under his belt who passed CCS and was made WC isn't made OC of any famed F-16 squadrons ?
> 
> So his offence was of that magnitude he is being passed for OC post and it appears he will be forced to take retirement from either Wing Commander rank or Group Captain rank (if he gets lucky) or Air Commodore ( If Bengali Baba helps him in promotion). He will not be progressing to AVM or AM rank like Mig Killer or The H-4 Shooter who both are Group Captain right now


What is normal designation for fighter pilots in PAF they got retired



Zibago said:


> They refused to even allow sale of downgraded Iraqi F-16 that the Iraqis have a troubling in keeping airworthy


BcuZ we still relay on F16s as our front line fighter,
J10 just inducted in ground attack role will take few year for actual operationalize and training, 

Once PAF start moving them to front line role them bell for American will ring, right now they know they still have strings in there hands


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## Scorpiooo

we dont know Iraqi were actually interested to sell them (there F16)

Suppose if they were is cost was affordable for PAF , bcuz whatever we getting from china is on subsidised cost and easy long term loans


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## ziaulislam

Scorpiooo said:


> Seems like that, but we know PAF love for F16, they cant afford new ones but EDA with V updates or V update for existing block 52 alway on card in limited numbers.
> Becuz J10 are replacing role of mirages and F16 will replaced with any 5th generation jet so till that time they want there F16 to up to power indian rafales


Nope..i doubt pakistan will even be allowed to get bullet proof helmets ..cost is not practical

USA will offer new ones but not used ones
New ones have operational poltical limitations and will cost twice that of j10 with just aim9 
Or at best aim120c5
So in their right mind will get it


----------



## Ali_Baba

Raider 21 said:


> It did a lot and did indeed achieve its full potential for what it has been provided with. The country is safer because of its presence in the region.



1 - The original business case for the F16s was about 110 fighters and the infrastructure was setup to support that many - but PAF is now stuck at a little over 70 odd. So - alot of wasted time/effort/money in infrastructure to support a larger fleet than what PAF has ..
2 - The F16s spent a large portion of their life under sanctions with limited spare parts supplies which comprimised their actual military value during those sanctions. Parts were begged/borrowed and Kaiser has been clear in his commentary of the 2001 standoff with India, there wasn't enough spare parts to keep up the temp of operations.
3 - They just about got a MLU upgrade to take them to Block 50 standards when the 18 Block 52's were bought.
4 - There is no possibility of upgrading to V standard/AESA radars for the last 1/3 of their life.
5 - The Block 52+ were never allowed to be sold with DRFM jamming.
6 - No AIM-9X were sold - even though they got the Helmet that would have allowed them to be used.
7 - No real possibility of purchasing new F16s ..
8 - No possibility of even 2nd hard F16s to get to the original number of 110 that PAF planned.

I am sure others on this forum can highlight more reasons than what i have listed above... but it should give you a taste of why I dont think the F16 platform has been "allowed to achieve its full potential.".

Yes - the country is safer with the current fleet than not having it - but that is different to saying the acquisition of the F16s have fullfiled the original plans the PAF had and then allowed the full potential of what the platform should have been able to offer had it kept pace with the growth of the platform else where interms of capbility growth and upgrades.

The F16 fleet in the PAF will now wither away, decay and die prematurely as it will not be "allowed" to keep pace with the overall developments and enhancements of the F16 platform being made by the manufacturer.

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## Scorpiooo

ziaulislam said:


> Nope..i doubt pakistan will even be allowed to get bullet proof helmets ..cost is not practical
> 
> USA will offer new ones but not used ones
> New ones have operational poltical limitations and will cost twice that of j10 with just aim9
> Or at best aim120c5
> So in their right mind will get it


New one not affordable until we got military support fund, we already have Aim120c5 or it will only add advantage if we can get hand on Aim12OD or atleast aim120c7


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## Engima Chaudhry

Scorpiooo said:


> New one not affordable until we got military support fund, we already have Aim120c5 or it will only add advantage if we can get hand on Aim12OD or atleast aim120c7


Owing to current global political scenario. I forsee one or two squadrons of f16s coming our way. Of course , eda, by the end of this year 2022. 
May be wrong, but certainly wishful.

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## ziaulislam

Scorpiooo said:


> New one not affordable until we got military support fund, we already have Aim120c5 or it will only add advantage if we can get hand on Aim12OD or atleast aim120c7


2007 bush was desparate to end afghan war
We dont have any such leverage


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## araz

Ali_Baba said:


> 1 - The original business case for the F16s was about 110 fighters and the infrastructure was setup to support that many - but PAF is now stuck at a little over 70 odd. So - alot of wasted time/effort/money in infrastructure to support a larger fleet than what PAF has ..
> 2 - The F16s spent a large portion of their life under sanctions with limited spare parts supplies which comprimised their actual military value during those sanctions. Parts were begged/borrowed and Kaiser has been clear in his commentary of the 2001 standoff with India, there wasn't enough spare parts to keep up the temp of operations.
> 3 - They just about got a MLU upgrade to take them to Block 50 standards when the 18 Block 52's were bought.
> 4 - There is no possibility of upgrading to V standard/AESA radars for the last 1/3 of their life.
> 5 - The Block 52+ were never allowed to be sold with DRFM jamming.
> 6 - No AIM-9X were sold - even though they got the Helmet that would have allowed them to be used.
> 7 - No real possibility of purchasing new F16s ..
> 8 - No possibility of even 2nd hard F16s to get to the original number of 110 that PAF planned.
> 
> I am sure others on this forum can highlight more reasons than what i have listed above... but it should give you a taste of why I dont think the F16 platform has been "allowed to achieve its full potential.".
> 
> Yes - the country is safer with the current fleet than not having it - but that is different to saying the acquisition of the F16s have fullfiled the original plans the PAF had and then allowed the full potential of what the platform should have been able to offer had it kept pace with the growth of the platform else where interms of capbility growth and upgrades.
> 
> The F16 fleet in the PAF will now wither away, decay and die prematurely as it will not be "allowed" to keep pace with the overall developments and enhancements of the F16 platform being made by the manufacturer.


PAF will never allow the 16s to wither away and die prematurely. It has enough spares to keep them in very good shape . It will also continue to get spares for the current fleet for the forseeable future. Relations with the US might not be as good as they were but we are still no where near the trough that we saw in the 90s. From the US perspective, I think their assessment will be that sanctions now will have no advantageous role for extension of US policy objectives and would actually be detrimental and not achieve anything. In a war between Indo Pak they will put sanctions on both countries as per UN rules but otherwise things will go on as such. I think PAF will not be offered older platforms unless they do US's policy bidding which they will not do.
So this remains the CURRENT situation. However in Pakistan's history nothing is permanent and it just needs a change for the establishment to go back on its earlier decisions.
A



Scorpiooo said:


> New one not affordable until we got military support fund, we already have Aim120c5 or it will only add advantage if we can get hand on Aim12OD or atleast aim120c7


It is not that they are not affordable. It is US unwillingness to provide them and PAF will not post funds for something that could be sanction prone. PAF will in principle only get them if the CSF is released. I dont think the US will do so.
A


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## tphuang

Ali_Baba said:


> 5 - The Block 52+ were never allowed to be sold with DRFM jamming.
> 6 - No AIM-9X were sold - even though they got the Helmet that would have allowed them to be used.


Wait PAF F-16s don't even have DRFM jamming or AIM-9X and people here are eager for more of them? DRFM was high level of technology back in 2000s. It's not something you want to use against modern AESA radar aircraft anymore. No wonder PAF realized them needed J-10C. That level of technology is just not competitive right now. Read here on why DRFM is not considered to be modern anymore https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...eaknesses-endure-while-other-nations-innovate
Keep in mind that Su-35S uses this technology and it's completely ineffective against J-16/J-10C in PLAAF DACT. If F-16 doesn't have that, it's EW suite really is pretty old.

I mean sure, it can probably jam up Mig-29s, Su-30MKIs, but that's like 90s and 2000s Russian technology. Even block 2 JF-17s can probably jam those up. But if the PAF F-16s use late 90s US avionics technology along with older AIM-120/AIM-9 missiles, I don't get why people are still so hung up on them. Even IAF will eventually get some advanced new aircraft that would vastly overmatch these F-16s

And if you are still waiting on F-16Vs, you might want to watch this 



That's from a DC insider looking at Pakistan. America will remember Pakistan siding with the Russians for a long time.


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## Scorpiooo

Engima Chaudhry said:


> Owing to current global political scenario. I forsee one or two squadrons of f16s coming our way. Of course , eda, by the end of this year 2022.
> May be wrong, but certainly wishful.


Lets see all revolves around American interest in Afghanistan and Pakistan role and involvement in it



ziaulislam said:


> 2007 bush was desparate to end afghan war
> We dont have any such leverage


Agian if American want to to be in Afghanistan via Pakistan


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## truthseeker2010

araz said:


> it just needs a change for the establishment to go 360 on its earlier decisions.



180


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## Scorpiooo

araz said:


> It is not that they are not affordable. It is US unwillingness to provide them and PAF will not post funds for something that could be sanction prone. PAF will in principle only get them if the CSF is released. I dont think the US will do so.
> A


Yes PAF is waiting for CSF release for F16 and helos from years, sanctions in case of American will always on card


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## araz

truthseeker2010 said:


> 180


Thank you. Too much kaddoo for lunch$%@×+. Made appropriate changes
A


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## truthseeker2010

araz said:


> Thank you. Too much kaddoo for lunch$%@×+. Made appropriate changes



You missed your signature!
A

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## TsAr

Raider 21 said:


> A Viper driver escorting a former Viper driver back into Pak airspace


Probably asking him for a drag race 😂


----------



## WiderMan

Ali_Baba said:


> 1 - The original business case for the F16s was about 110 fighters and the infrastructure was setup to support that many - but PAF is now stuck at a little over 70 odd. So - alot of wasted time/effort/money in infrastructure to support a larger fleet than what PAF has ..
> 2 - The F16s spent a large portion of their life under sanctions with limited spare parts supplies which comprimised their actual military value during those sanctions. Parts were begged/borrowed and Kaiser has been clear in his commentary of the 2001 standoff with India, there wasn't enough spare parts to keep up the temp of operations.
> 3 - They just about got a MLU upgrade to take them to Block 50 standards when the 18 Block 52's were bought.
> 4 - There is no possibility of upgrading to V standard/AESA radars for the last 1/3 of their life.
> 5 - The Block 52+ were never allowed to be sold with DRFM jamming.
> 6 - No AIM-9X were sold - even though they got the Helmet that would have allowed them to be used.
> 7 - No real possibility of purchasing new F16s ..
> 8 - No possibility of even 2nd hard F16s to get to the original number of 110 that PAF planned.
> 
> I am sure others on this forum can highlight more reasons than what i have listed above... but it should give you a taste of why I dont think the F16 platform has been "allowed to achieve its full potential.".
> 
> Yes - the country is safer with the current fleet than not having it - but that is different to saying the acquisition of the F16s have fullfiled the original plans the PAF had and then allowed the full potential of what the platform should have been able to offer had it kept pace with the growth of the platform else where interms of capbility growth and upgrades.
> 
> The F16 fleet in the PAF will now wither away, decay and die prematurely as it will not be "allowed" to keep pace with the overall developments and enhancements of the F16 platform being made by the manufacturer.




Most of your information is incorrect. The Block 52s do in fact have DRFM enabled SPJs. There's also a strong possibility for another fleet upgrade.

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## Zibago

Scorpiooo said:


> J10 just inducted in ground attack role will take few year for actual operationalize and training,


The PL-15 is a beast which will make it not a question of if but when








PL-15E: China’s jet fighters just got more deadly


Speaker after speaker at the recent 2021 Air, Space & Cyber Conference, expressed the same urgency — a desire to accelerate modernization to deter Beijing’s rapidly growing military…




asiatimes.com





If US really was concerned about losing its influence on our defence sector it couldve allowed sale of Turkish helicopters and offered us something better than the Type 54 but it didnt


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## araz

truthseeker2010 said:


> You missed your signature!
> A


As requested Sir!!!


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## ghazi52

Over Islamabad..........






......

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## Windjammer



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## MIRauf

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 824040


Oh NO, a F-16 Block 52+ leading the J-10CP, will that not make certain people unhappy here? What is PAF thinking ?

Let the hate for the F-16 ( errr US Admin / Policy ) flow.....

On a serious note, would love to see the integration of F-16s and J-10CP combo to bring new tactics etc for the PAF.

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## Ek620

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 824040


want to see them in 1 on 1 scenario in close combat tactics


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> That’s very interesting(and good to see). The initial impressions of female pilots being confined to F-7s and then posted to auxiliary or transport squadrons seems to be moving forward slowly. However the issue of recovery after pregnancy and recouping of the asset will remain especially with Pakistani culture but hopefully these women will break through.


tbh I think the nature of the job requires a unique level of ambition and skill. IMO, the women who become career fighter pilots and climb up the ranks are warriors at heart. Basically, the Nusaybah bint Ka'ab (RA) types who'll make war their priority in life. I'm confident that the ones who really climb the PAF's pilot ranks will be of that type.

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## ghazi52

.......

















...

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## ghazi52

......,,,,




,,,,.............

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## Windjammer



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## Bratva

@Raider 21 @SQ8 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @kursed 

General Atomics, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, L3Harris coming to Qatar DIMDEX-2022 next week. I'll ask them about PAF F-16 upgrades and how likely PAF is gonna get approved for getting new F-16's

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## ghazi52

...




..

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## ghazi52

-,-,-,




-,-,-,

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## ghazi52

.....





A Pakistan Air Force F-16D Block 52 taxies at PAF Base Shahbaz near Jacobabad, Pakistan, with a Mirage 5DR reconnaissance fighter parked in the foreground.
;
..

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## mingle

Scorpiooo said:


> Seems like that, but we know PAF love for F16, they cant afford new ones but EDA with V updates or V update for existing block 52 alway on card in limited numbers.
> Becuz J10 are replacing role of mirages and F16 will replaced with any 5th generation jet so till that time they want there F16 to up to power indian rafales


True but I liked J10C it's perfect for PAF also no strings and can marry any weapon system. If US offers V kits better but new? better use that money for more J10C a very very flexible option with zero strings


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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

.,.





,,,

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## Bratva

Trailer23 said:


> I'll get back to you in the morning...



I guess they were not willing to discuss that with you.


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## Trailer23

Bratva said:


> I guess they were not willing to discuss that with you.


Sorry, completely forgot about the message.

Yeah - regarding that. Lets just say that he's (just) a guest for a few weeks.

Indirectly, there are others that pull rank ahead of him, but does not mean that he won't get there at some point.


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## ghazi52

Today's formation over Islamabad...........






..

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## Scorpiooo



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## Scorpiooo

Viper unleashed over Parade Ground...!

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAF F-16C Block 52+ from No 5 MR Squadron Falcons approaching Nellis AFB Nevada during Ex Red Flag. Aircraft is equipped with Sniper ATP and ACMI pod.

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## Bratva

There is some sort of F-16 upgrade negotiations on going for Pakistani F-16's, im not sure what but let me get your details i'll ask my colleague whose F-16 expert and couldnt make it to DIMDEX 2022, and then i'll let you know Tomorrow - Lockeheed martin Rep at Dimdex 2022

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## baqai

F-16 V upgrade most probably?


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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

''';';





';';';';

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## MIRauf

Bratva said:


> There is some sort of F-16 upgrade negotiations on going for Pakistani F-16's, im not sure what but let me get your details i'll ask my colleague whose F-16 expert and couldnt make it to DIMDEX 2022, and then i'll let you know Tomorrow - Lockeheed martin Rep at Dimdex 2022


Raider21 posted about a "may be upgrade that he may be part of" last week, perhaphs he may shed some light about it that is if it doesn't break any security concerns.


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## SQ8

Ali_Baba said:


> 1 - The original business case for the F16s was about 110 fighters and the infrastructure was setup to support that many - but PAF is now stuck at a little over 70 odd. So - alot of wasted time/effort/money in infrastructure to support a larger fleet than what PAF has ..
> 2 - The F16s spent a large portion of their life under sanctions with limited spare parts supplies which comprimised their actual military value during those sanctions. Parts were begged/borrowed and Kaiser has been clear in his commentary of the 2001 standoff with India, there wasn't enough spare parts to keep up the temp of operations.
> 3 - They just about got a MLU upgrade to take them to Block 50 standards when the 18 Block 52's were bought.
> 4 - There is no possibility of upgrading to V standard/AESA radars for the last 1/3 of their life.
> 5 - The Block 52+ were never allowed to be sold with DRFM jamming.
> 6 - No AIM-9X were sold - even though they got the Helmet that would have allowed them to be used.
> 7 - No real possibility of purchasing new F16s ..
> 8 - No possibility of even 2nd hard F16s to get to the original number of 110 that PAF planned.
> 
> I am sure others on this forum can highlight more reasons than what i have listed above... but it should give you a taste of why I dont think the F16 platform has been "allowed to achieve its full potential.".
> 
> Yes - the country is safer with the current fleet than not having it - but that is different to saying the acquisition of the F16s have fullfiled the original plans the PAF had and then allowed the full potential of what the platform should have been able to offer had it kept pace with the growth of the platform else where interms of capbility growth and upgrades.
> 
> The F16 fleet in the PAF will now wither away, decay and die prematurely as it will not be "allowed" to keep pace with the overall developments and enhancements of the F16 platform being made by the manufacturer.


3. Do you know the difference between a block 50 versus a 52?

4.Correct - would be waste of funds

5. You sure about that

6. No money

7. Geopolitics - doesn’t mean the ones Pakistan has cannot fight

8. Numbers change with funds, time and geopolitical considerations

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## baqai

Trailer23 said:


> Sorry, completely forgot about the message.
> 
> Yeah - regarding that. Lets just say that he's (just) a guest for a few weeks.
> 
> Indirectly, there are others that pull rank ahead of him, but does not mean that he won't get there at some point.



moving to J-10's or to that upcoming Viper update people are talking about?


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## Trailer23

baqai said:


> moving to J-10's or to that upcoming Viper update people are talking about?


J-10's highly unlikely.

Don't have any clue 'bout any Viper Update.

It seems we have a Viper Update every 2nd Month. We must be on *Update 87.0* by now.

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## blain2

Ali_Baba said:


> 1 - The original business case for the F16s was about 110 fighters and the infrastructure was setup to support that many - but PAF is now stuck at a little over 70 odd. So - alot of wasted time/effort/money in infrastructure to support a larger fleet than what PAF has ..
> 2 - The F16s spent a large portion of their life under sanctions with limited spare parts supplies which comprimised their actual military value during those sanctions. Parts were begged/borrowed and Kaiser has been clear in his commentary of the 2001 standoff with India, there wasn't enough spare parts to keep up the temp of operations.
> 3 - They just about got a MLU upgrade to take them to Block 50 standards when the 18 Block 52's were bought.
> 4 - There is no possibility of upgrading to V standard/AESA radars for the last 1/3 of their life.
> 5 - The Block 52+ were never allowed to be sold with DRFM jamming.
> 6 - No AIM-9X were sold - even though they got the Helmet that would have allowed them to be used.
> 7 - No real possibility of purchasing new F16s ..
> 8 - No possibility of even 2nd hard F16s to get to the original number of 110 that PAF planned.
> 
> I am sure others on this forum can highlight more reasons than what i have listed above... but it should give you a taste of why I dont think the F16 platform has been "allowed to achieve its full potential.".
> 
> Yes - the country is safer with the current fleet than not having it - but that is different to saying the acquisition of the F16s have fullfiled the original plans the PAF had and then allowed the full potential of what the platform should have been able to offer had it kept pace with the growth of the platform else where interms of capbility growth and upgrades.
> 
> The F16 fleet in the PAF will now wither away, decay and die prematurely as it will not be "allowed" to keep pace with the overall developments and enhancements of the F16 platform being made by the manufacturer.



The initial purchase was for 40 aircraft with the potential for the PAF to buy an additional 60+ aircraft (and even more) if finances and situation allowed it. PAF never built infrastructure beyond the 40 aircraft that were put in service so I am not sure what "infrastructure" for 110 aircraft was set up in Pakistan.

#2, Pakistan had spares to last a limited amount of time during the late 90s once embargoed. What you say not only applied to the F-16s but to the C-130s, Cobras, TPS radars etc. etc. Had a war been imposed on Pakistan, we would have used what was at our disposal (the same situation as with F-86s and F-104s in 1965 and 1971).

#3, All of the Pakistani F-16s (MLUs) are flying at blk-52 spec. in terms of avionics and weapons integration. The 50 vs 52 difference is simply in engines. If you fly 50, you are on GE engines, if you fly blk 52s, you have Pratt and Whitney power plants. All of Pakistani F-16s are running P&W engines with spares.

#4, There is an absolute possibility to upgrade ALL of PAF F-16s to V/AESA standard if we get clearance from the Americans. After the MLU done on the older F-16s, they also got the Falcon STAR upgrade on the structure which prolonged the life of these F-16s to 8000 hours! This is enough hours to last for another 30+ years of flying so all these aircraft are prime candidates for the Viper upgrade. Not sure where you got the 1/3 of their remaining life information from.

#5, In the absence of DRFM module on the F-16, PAF has other EW assets that are dedicated for these purposes. As such you can get around this issue. It isn't a must have for individual F-16s in a strike package.

#6, Given the proliferation of BVR, HOBS AAM like AIM-9x solution, while good to have, is not a major issue. With AIM-120s in abundance, the F-16 fleet is well served by AIM-9L/M and AIM-120Cs. Also keep in mind that JHMCS (Helmet) is not just used for AIM-9x, it is a great platform for cueing not only surface attack munitions but also for BVR AAMs.

On 7 and 8, all of it remains to be seen. If no from the USG, then no, however a fleet of 76 MR F-16s, all upgraded, is not a slouch in any case and this will remain a potent edge for some time along with the AESA equipped platforms being inducted now.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## mshan44



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## Ghessan

Bratva said:


> There is some sort of F-16 upgrade negotiations on going for Pakistani F-16's, im not sure what but let me get your details i'll ask my colleague whose F-16 expert and couldnt make it to DIMDEX 2022, and then i'll let you know Tomorrow - Lockeheed martin Rep at Dimdex 2022



did you get a chance to have some talk with LM people?


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## baqai

Trailer23 said:


> J-10's highly unlikely.
> 
> Don't have any clue 'bout any Viper Update.
> 
> It seems we have a Viper Update every 2nd Month. We must be on *Update 87.0* by now.



haha ... one of our members mentioned something about going to an airbase for some upcoming viper updates, if my memory serves right it was @Raider 21 ? and than another member in a thread mentioned something about possibilities of having some updates to F-16s 

fingers crossed


----------



## Bratva

Ghessan said:


> did you get a chance to have some talk with





Ghessan said:


> did you get a chance to have some talk with LM people?


 I just did. No update. Will try one last time tomorrow. The Rep is from C-130 team in LM and I remembered C130j rumors were rife and ripe. She said no such thing. LM doesnt know anything about this @Tps43



baqai said:


> F-16 V upgrade most probably?



Yup. But there is lot of confusion and fog of war. Keeping finger crossed

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

I think the PAF will aggressively pursue the F-16V upgrade for its 18 Block-52+.

On the surface, this may sound like a superfluous program. However, when we dig into it, the F-16V upgrade would make a lot of sense.

First, these specific F-16s still have life. Not only that, but the OEM SLEP could add another 6,000 hours.

Second, while it's only a single squadron, you can still extract a lot of utility out of it in a conflict. The PAF would still have its AIM-120C5 and JDAM stocks as well as the SNIPER and DB110 compatibility. By equipping these fighters with an AESA radar and, potentially, a new BVRAAM and HOBS AAM, these jets would be a threat. In fact, at the minimum, you could at least negate the M2K-H.

Third, you'd get that modern-gen Western/Blue fighter platform. I'm sure that would be hugely valuable from a DACT perspective as the majority of your fleet (JF-17 and J-10CE) will be of Chinese/Gold origin. In other words, the bulk of our pilots would understand a modern Western fighter as well as the IAF's crews, but the latter won't know enough about Chinese aircraft. Moreover, you can still send an AESA radar-equipped unit out to Red Flag, Anatolian Eagle, etc via the F-16s.

Fourth, even if these F-16s become 'non-critical' (I don't think any fighter unit is redundant) by virtue of lots of JF-17 and J-10CEs, the PAF can allocate No.5 for coalition support or overseas deployment (e.g., in the Gulf, Jordan, Turkey, etc). We can connect these birds to a more assertive foreign policy. Granted, we can't do it without US permission, but where the "roads cross" we could take advantage of the opportunity.

Fifth, if by some chance the PAF does get access to used F-16C/D Block-32s, the OEM SLEP (6,000 hours) and F-16V upgrade would actually be a cost-effective package to further augment the fleet. You have an entire infrastructure line available for the PW-equipped F-16C/D. IMO any opportunity to expand the fleet, you take it. @SQ8

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## Trailer23

baqai said:


> fingers crossed


Yaar, i'm in touch with a handful of Viper Drivers & no one has mentioned anything to me so far.

On a side note - *[fingers cross kartay-kartay ungliyaan he tai'ri ho gae hain]*

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## WiderMan

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the PAF will aggressively pursue the F-16V upgrade for its 18 Block-52+.
> 
> On the surface, this may sound like a superfluous program. However, when we dig into it, the F-16V upgrade would make a lot of sense.
> 
> First, these specific F-16s still have life. Not only that, but the OEM SLEP could add another 6,000 hours.
> 
> Second, while it's only a single squadron, you can still extract a lot of utility out of it in a conflict. The PAF would still have its AIM-120C5 and JDAM stocks as well as the SNIPER and DB110 compatibility. By equipping these fighters with an AESA radar and, potentially, a new BVRAAM and HOBS AAM, these jets would be a threat. In fact, at the minimum, you could at least negate the M2K-H.
> 
> Third, you'd get that modern-gen Western/Blue fighter platform. I'm sure that would be hugely valuable from a DACT perspective as the majority of your fleet (JF-17 and J-10CE) will be of Chinese/Gold origin. In other words, the bulk of our pilots would understand a modern Western fighter as well as the IAF's crews, but the latter won't know enough about Chinese aircraft. Moreover, you can still send an AESA radar-equipped unit out to Red Flag, Anatolian Eagle, etc via the F-16s.
> 
> Fourth, even if these F-16s become 'non-critical' (I don't think any fighter unit is redundant) by virtue of lots of JF-17 and J-10CEs, the PAF can allocate No.5 for coalition support or overseas deployment (e.g., in the Gulf, Jordan, Turkey, etc). We can connect these birds to a more assertive foreign policy. Granted, we can't do it without US permission, but where the "roads cross" we could take advantage of the opportunity.
> 
> Fifth, if by some chance the PAF does get access to used F-16C/D Block-32s, the OEM SLEP (6,000 hours) and F-16V upgrade would actually be a cost-effective package to further augment the fleet. You have an entire infrastructure line available for the PW-equipped F-16C/D. IMO any opportunity to expand the fleet, you take it. @SQ8




Add 12 odd MLUs to those 18, which have the same airframes as the block 50/52s.


----------



## MIRauf

WiderMan said:


> Add 12 odd MLUs to those 18, which have the same airframes as the block 50/52s.


Which 12 ? ADF Variants from Jordan ? the 12 odd that USAF was using ? all of them were block 15/15+ if not mistaken. 32 odd original birds and 12+ USAF ones went through MLU to be brought to Block-52+ spec but are not 'Block-52+ as Block-52+ initially built,' so not the same airframe as Block-52+.

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## Trailer23

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> ...if by some chance the PAF does get access to used F-16C/D Block-32s, the OEM SLEP (6,000 hours) and F-16V upgrade would actually be a cost-effective package to further augment the fleet. You have an entire infrastructure line available for the PW-equipped F-16C/D. IMO any opportunity to expand the fleet, you take it. @SQ8


Romania seems to have walked away with quite a deal. 32 Vipers for the price of $514 Million.

Do you think there is anything out there PAF could get access to (with US nod) at that price tag for nearly that many?


----------



## WiderMan

MIRauf said:


> Which 12 ? ADF Variants from Jordan ? the 12 odd that USAF was using ? all of them were block 15/15+ if not mistaken. 32 odd original birds and 12+ USAF ones went through MLU to be brought to Block-52+ spec but are not 'Block-52+ as Block-52+ initially built,' so not the same airframe as Block-52+.




The 12 out of 14 Peace Gate III/IV aircraft delivered in 08-09. Two were lost. These airframes can accommodate the 12k hours SLEP.


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## The Eagle

Trailer23 said:


> Yaar, i'm in touch with a handful of Viper Drivers & no one has mentioned anything to me so far.
> 
> On a side note - *[fingers cross kartay-kartay ungliyaan he tai'ri ho gae hain]*



I think this V upgrade/new kits argument isn't going away in near future.

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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the PAF will aggressively pursue the F-16V upgrade for its 18 Block-52+.
> 
> On the surface, this may sound like a superfluous program. However, when we dig into it, the F-16V upgrade would make a lot of sense.
> 
> First, these specific F-16s still have life. Not only that, but the OEM SLEP could add another 6,000 hours.
> 
> Second, while it's only a single squadron, you can still extract a lot of utility out of it in a conflict. The PAF would still have its AIM-120C5 and JDAM stocks as well as the SNIPER and DB110 compatibility. By equipping these fighters with an AESA radar and, potentially, a new BVRAAM and HOBS AAM, these jets would be a threat. In fact, at the minimum, you could at least negate the M2K-H.
> 
> Third, you'd get that modern-gen Western/Blue fighter platform. I'm sure that would be hugely valuable from a DACT perspective as the majority of your fleet (JF-17 and J-10CE) will be of Chinese/Gold origin. In other words, the bulk of our pilots would understand a modern Western fighter as well as the IAF's crews, but the latter won't know enough about Chinese aircraft. Moreover, you can still send an AESA radar-equipped unit out to Red Flag, Anatolian Eagle, etc via the F-16s.
> 
> Fourth, even if these F-16s become 'non-critical' (I don't think any fighter unit is redundant) by virtue of lots of JF-17 and J-10CEs, the PAF can allocate No.5 for coalition support or overseas deployment (e.g., in the Gulf, Jordan, Turkey, etc). We can connect these birds to a more assertive foreign policy. Granted, we can't do it without US permission, but where the "roads cross" we could take advantage of the opportunity.
> 
> Fifth, if by some chance the PAF does get access to used F-16C/D Block-32s, the OEM SLEP (6,000 hours) and F-16V upgrade would actually be a cost-effective package to further augment the fleet. You have an entire infrastructure line available for the PW-equipped F-16C/D. IMO any opportunity to expand the fleet, you take it. @SQ8


The problem is that the diplomatic moves aren’t mirroring the PAF wishes. The state department really is pushing Pakistan out and the attempts to make them jealous by PDA with China isn’t working. 
Any threat the Russians posed is being mowed down in Ukraine so now its going to be all about China. In that environment the only way Pakistan get the same attention is if the current government (and its policies) are displaced via regime change. 

Yes a V upgrade would be great and the PAF will likely stock up on extra spares as it has done for the current crop. Without a HOBs and the AIM-120D though it would be a handicapped asset and it is unlikely those will be approved throughout the chain be it from the state or legislature.

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## AZADPAKISTAN2009

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I think the PAF will aggressively pursue the F-16V upgrade for its 18 Block-52+.
> 
> On the surface, this may sound like a superfluous program. However, when we dig into it, the F-16V upgrade would make a lot of sense.
> 
> First, these specific F-16s still have life. Not only that, but the OEM SLEP could add another 6,000 hours.
> 
> Second, while it's only a single squadron, you can still extract a lot of utility out of it in a conflict. The PAF would still have its AIM-120C5 and JDAM stocks as well as the SNIPER and DB110 compatibility. By equipping these fighters with an AESA radar and, potentially, a new BVRAAM and HOBS AAM, these jets would be a threat. In fact, at the minimum, you could at least negate the M2K-H.
> 
> Third, you'd get that modern-gen Western/Blue fighter platform. I'm sure that would be hugely valuable from a DACT perspective as the majority of your fleet (JF-17 and J-10CE) will be of Chinese/Gold origin. In other words, the bulk of our pilots would understand a modern Western fighter as well as the IAF's crews, but the latter won't know enough about Chinese aircraft. Moreover, you can still send an AESA radar-equipped unit out to Red Flag, Anatolian Eagle, etc via the F-16s.
> 
> Fourth, even if these F-16s become 'non-critical' (I don't think any fighter unit is redundant) by virtue of lots of JF-17 and J-10CEs, the PAF can allocate No.5 for coalition support or overseas deployment (e.g., in the Gulf, Jordan, Turkey, etc). We can connect these birds to a more assertive foreign policy. Granted, we can't do it without US permission, but where the "roads cross" we could take advantage of the opportunity.
> 
> Fifth, if by some chance the PAF does get access to used F-16C/D Block-32s, the OEM SLEP (6,000 hours) and F-16V upgrade would actually be a cost-effective package to further augment the fleet. You have an entire infrastructure line available for the PW-equipped F-16C/D. IMO any opportunity to expand the fleet, you take it. @SQ8



There is room for 36 F16 V in fleet on top of existing 73 F16 C/D
a small upgrade and diversification is good idea but it depends also on seller

So far the problem has been on the seller side


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## araz

SQ8 said:


> The problem is that the diplomatic moves aren’t mirroring the PAF wishes. The state department really is pushing Pakistan out and the attempts to make them jealous by PDA with China isn’t working.
> Any threat the Russians posed is being mowed down in Ukraine so now its going to be all about China. In that environment the only way Pakistan get the same attention is if the current government (and its policies) are displaced via regime change.
> 
> Yes a V upgrade would be great and the PAF will likely stock up on extra spares as it has done for the current crop. Without a HOBs and the AIM-120D though it would be a handicapped asset and it is unlikely those will be approved throughout the chain be it from the state or legislature.


The real question is our worth to the US establishment. I suspect currently we seem not to carry any traction with them at all. Even our help in evacuafion from Afghanistan seems to have been shrugged away as something we HAD TO DO, rather than a favour we have done to them. I dont know whether the Pak side extracted some advantage out of it or not( if not I strongly feel they should have done so). The US believes in transactional arrangements and not favours and it is time our establishment realizes that. 
They are courting India ignoring Pakistan. Even Indian refusal to take a stance against Russia seems outwardly not to have dampened the love Affair. Unless the US requires a strategic leverage from us, it seems unlikely their policies will change. Even Pakistan's effort at coaxing a more moderate policy out of the US state department seems to have not gone any where. Gen Bajwa did visit the US but the outcome was totally blanked out both by the US and Pak. It seems the latest assessment of the Pakistani side is we are not going to get anywhere in the US calculus.
My thoughts totally so feel free to present a counter.
A

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## SQ8

araz said:


> The real question is our worth to the US establishment. I suspect currently we seem not to carry any traction with them at all. They are courting India ignoring Pakistan. Even Indian refusal to take a stance against Russia seems outwardly not to have dampened the love Affair. Unless the US requires a strategic leverage from us, it seems unlikely their policies will change. Even Pakistan's effort at coaxing a more moderate policy out of the US state department seems to have not gone any where. Gen Bajwa did visit the US but the outcome was totally blanked out both by the US and Pak. It seems the latest assessment of the Pakistani side is we are not going to get anywhere in the US calculus.
> My thoughts totally so feel free to present a counter.
> A


You are correct - Pakistan is yesterday’s story to this administration and also the state. Even the military to military ties aren’t moving into DC with a very anti-Pakistan sentiment fully lobbied into by the Indians within the legislative branch. 

Whether it wasn’t before, Pakistan is being seen by a larger majority of senators and congressmen as an enemy state. Just because they are focused on Ukraine, party feuds or China doesn’t mean it isn’t brewing. India has won the information war on US soil against Pakistan completely

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## araz

SQ8 said:


> You are correct - Pakistan is yesterday’s story to this administration and also the state. Even the military to military ties aren’t moving into DC with a very anti-Pakistan sentiment fully lobbied into by the Indians within the legislative branch.
> 
> Whether it wasn’t before, Pakistan is being seen by a larger majority of senators and congressmen as an enemy state. Just because they are focused on Ukraine, party feuds or China doesn’t mean it isn’t brewing. India has won the information war on US soil against Pakistan completely


I think there is more of an internal deep state assessment of the direction the US wants to take than just Indian influence although the raised skirt of the golden promise of trade and investment opportunities which the huge market offers may have swayed the decision making. The powers that be want to scale the ramparts and pillage the bird that once laid golden eggs again, but now appears to have a limitless supply 9f gutter rats willing to slave away to their master's tune for a few scraps. The Pakistani squirrel( for fear of reprisals, although scavangers none the less) seems too dazed by the dazzling lights of adversity to want to do anything.
The rupture of the US's long held partnership with the shuyoukh of the middle East despite their roling in front of the Israelis and acceeding to every just/ unjust demand of the US points towards a different direction in which the muslim world no longer plays any role. Their treatment of the UAE despite initially agreeing to sell them F35s suggests a whole paradigm shift in which muslims of all and any denomination have bèen parked into the opposite camp. The Mid east policy may have been subtly pointing to this for many decades but now the bias is blatant. Whether this is the clutching at straws of a dying empire or a paradigm shift remains to be seen. The US seems hell bent on using force to exert its influence knowing well they do not have the clout they used to have 1-2 decades ago. This will lead to more strife and economic instability possibly leading to collapse of the financial world as we know it today. Even though it seems unlikely at the moment the signs are very much there.
Recsnt changes in Pakistan also seem to be related to the same picture as instalment of a pliant more corrupt, and therefore manageable leadership will not only weaken the state financially but policy wise as well it will make Pakistan more susceptable to outside pressure. Our weak financial condition and an economy on respirator has not helped the matter.
What the Pak deep state wants to do remains to be seen. Whether Bajwa saheb has more of an appetite than seems the case remains to be seen . What is obvious is that on the one side we have the relatively honest but totally incompetent vs totally dishonest and corrupt setup hell bent on looting Pakistan further. The awam on the other hand are in limbo too caught up in feeding theor families on a day to day basis expecting miracles from ab9ve when clearly there will be none.
We live in interesting times indeed where no one anywhere is safe.
A

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## Reichmarshal

SQ8 said:


> 3. Do you know the difference between a block 50 versus a 52?
> 
> 4.Correct - would be waste of funds
> 
> 5. You sure about that
> 
> 6. No money
> 
> 7. Geopolitics - doesn’t mean the ones Pakistan has cannot fight
> 
> 8. Numbers change with funds, time and geopolitical considerations


Engine


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## Scorpiooo

PAF F-16 performing on 23 March Pakistan Day Parade 








PAF F-16 performing on 23 March Pakistan Day Parade | PAF F-16 performing on 23 March Pakistan Day Parade 🇵🇰 | By Pak Fazaiya | Facebook


12K views, 352 likes, 93 loves, 13 comments, 109 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Pak Fazaiya: PAF F-16 performing on 23 March Pakistan Day Parade 🇵🇰




fb.watch


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## SQ8

Reichmarshal said:


> Engine


Engine and inlet but otherwise there is no difference between a block-52+ and a block-50+ 
So the comment made by the poster why the MLU only were upgraded to 50 versus the 52 made no sense.

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## Zarvan

Here comes another claim.


----------



## sparten

SQ8 said:


> You are correct - Pakistan is yesterday’s story to this administration and also the state. Even the military to military ties aren’t moving into DC with a very anti-Pakistan sentiment fully lobbied into by the Indians within the legislative branch.


That was true before Ukraine. Not anymore. Pakistan is a large, anglophone, nuclear power on Russia's southern flank. The American need to engage again.


SQ8 said:


> Whether it wasn’t before, Pakistan is being seen by a larger majority of senators and congressmen as an enemy state. Just because they are focused on Ukraine, party feuds or China doesn’t mean it isn’t brewing. India has won the information war on US soil against Pakistan completely


The Afghanistan bitterness will pass as Russia again becomes a major threat.


----------



## Princeps Senatus

Zarvan said:


> View attachment 826622
> 
> 
> Here comes another claim.


is that person someone credible?


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## SQ8

sparten said:


> That was true before Ukraine. Not anymore. Pakistan is a large, anglophone, nuclear power on Russia's southern flank. The American need to engage again.
> 
> The Afghanistan bitterness will pass as Russia again becomes a major threat.


Off topic but Russia is no longer a major threat

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## Pakistani Fighter

SQ8 said:


> Off topic but Russia is no longer a major threat


Can you please elaborate on Mirage part on crashed F16?


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## Side-Winder

SQ8 said:


> Engine and inlet but otherwise there is no difference between a block-52+ and a block-50+
> So the comment made by the poster why the MLU only were upgraded to 50 versus the 52 made no sense.



Well, there are differences between MLU and Blocks 52s, apart from just engine and CFTs 
But let's not talk about it.


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## SQ8

Side-Winder said:


> Well, there are differences between MLU and Blocks 52s, apart from just engine and CFTs
> But let's not talk about it.


Quite a bit - but the radar and some avionics are common.


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## sparten

SQ8 said:


> Off topic but Russia is no longer a major threat


Look at NATO action not think pieces released in propaganda outlets.
They aren’t increasing their Eastern Defences for the lack of a major threat


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## ghazi52

,.,.,
PAF F-16D Block 52+ from No 5 MR Squadron Falcons lands with drag chute deployed.
Aircraft is carrying DB-110 recce pod......






.,.,.,.

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## ghazi52

,.






F-16 AM of 9 sqn "Griffin's" releasing 2×MK-82 bombs. ©HFK..

'';...

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## PakFactor

sparten said:


> Look at NATO action not think pieces released in propaganda outlets.
> They aren’t increasing their Eastern Defences for the lack of a major threat



When an alpha animal is wounded the Hyenas gather it's the law of nature.

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## Engima Chaudhry

ghazi52 said:


> ,.
> View attachment 826923
> 
> 
> F-16 AM of 9 sqn "Griffin's" releasing 2×MK-82 bombs. ©HFK..
> 
> '';...


If the pic is not tulted , then that is nearly the way nukes are ' free tossed'.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*Air Boss leading the flypast on Pakistan Day parade
*




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=3078476015742239

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## Raja Porus

Griffins

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## Windjammer



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Trailer23

Bratva said:


> I guess they were not willing to discuss that with you.


I almost forgot, he's with No. 5 Sqn on the Block-52...

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## ghazi52

;';';';';'




;,,.

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## Falcon26

SQ8 said:


> You are correct - Pakistan is yesterday’s story to this administration and also the state. Even the military to military ties aren’t moving into DC with a very anti-Pakistan sentiment fully lobbied into by the Indians within the legislative branch.
> 
> Whether it wasn’t before, Pakistan is being seen by a larger majority of senators and congressmen as an enemy state. Just because they are focused on Ukraine, party feuds or China doesn’t mean it isn’t brewing. India has won the information war on US soil against Pakistan completely



I will say Pakistanis have won the information war against Pakistan.

One just has to peruse Pakistani press, rhetoric of politicians and its intelligentsia. They are decidedly anti-Pakistan. The Indian press simply markets claims and messaging manufactured in Pakistan to outside markets, especially in the U.S.

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## Scorpiooo

Still leading...

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## Yasser76

F-16 still out performs J-10 in certain roles. I would say the DB-110 pod makes it better for recce and the Sniper/JDAM combo better for ground attack/air support.

Where the J-10C stands head and shoulders above in in air superiority and long range strike where AESA/MAWS/PL-15 and our own cruise missiles make this a real beast in these roles.

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## Windjammer

The Sound of Freedom.

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## Raja Porus

still hurts.

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## baqai

Desert Fox 1 said:


> View attachment 828379
> still hurts.



bhai samajh nahin aya .... who is on receiving end and who is on giving end and what message are you trying to convey here?


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## Yasser76

baqai said:


> bhai samajh nahin aya .... who is on receiving end and who is on giving end and what message are you trying to convey here?



We lost a Viper to wild boar on runway in the 80s...

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## araz

Desert Fox 1 said:


> View attachment 828379
> still hurts.


Did we ever get a replacement? 
A


----------



## blain2

araz said:


> Did we ever get a replacement?
> A


No, not directly, however I think the subsequent Jordanian F-16s made up the losses after many years. The blk 52 purchase also came too late.


----------



## mshan44



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## Windjammer

araz said:


> Did we ever get a replacement?
> A


No, that was from the original 40.
Anticipating more F-16s, after 9 and 11, 14 also converted to Fighting Falcons but when it was realised that no more will be coming in near future, 14 was given F-7s and its F-16 went to the other two units.


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## Yasser76

mshan44 said:


> View attachment 828432


Red Flag?


----------



## Trailer23

Yasser76 said:


> Red Flag?


Arrows never attended Red Flag. 

Griffins & Falcons (only) - so far. 

Could be Anatolian Eagle.

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## ghazi52

,.,.





Syed Zohaib Zaidi Photograph​
کبھی نا کبھی تو یہ زندگی چھو لے گی وہ آسْمان
,.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,.,.






Shahbaz 1 on Pakistan Day Parade .....
,.,.,.,

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## Windjammer



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

*A picture you can Hear*.

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## ghazi52

Chief Ride !!!!!! ......................

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

No.29 "AGGRESSORS"

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## ghazi52

.,.,.




,.,.,

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## Tps43

Bratva said:


> I just did. No update. Will try one last time tomorrow. The Rep is from C-130 team in LM and I remembered C130j rumors were rife and ripe. She said no such thing. LM doesnt know anything about this @Tps43


9 C-140j’s news is confirmed but tbh I haven’t check with my sources about recent development on J’s . TCS was also preparing for the induction as well.

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## Tomcats

Bratva said:


> I just did. No update. Will try one last time tomorrow. The Rep is from C-130 team in LM and I remembered C130j rumors were rife and ripe. She said no such thing. LM doesnt know anything about this @Tps43


Wow that's very interesting, last time i heard any news on the C-130J was from @Blacklight.


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## Scorpiooo

Griffins in a tight formation...!

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## Bratva

Tps43 said:


> 9 C-140j’s news is confirmed but tbh I haven’t check with my sources about recent development on J’s . TCS was also preparing for the induction as well.



In today's environment, Do you really think American will send J's at all?

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## ghazi52

,.,.,.,.,.
"Do your best, Allah will do the Rest"

Happy Ramadan Kareem .

Do remember us & all the Armed forces in your prayers. May Almighty shower His blessings on you & your families.







,.,.,.,

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## Scorpiooo

Bratva said:


> In today's environment, Do you really think American will send J's at all?


Not at all


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## Scorpiooo

In reply of questions chief openly said that Americans have major contribution in our army build up.

But now to Americans policies we have to move towards china and russian we dont have other option, he gives T129 engine example


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## SQ8

Bratva said:


> In today's environment, Do you really think American will send J's at all?


J for Jharoo maybe - any US defense or even dual use equipment is no longer on any table for Pakistan. The ramifications of the last few days aren’t going away by a single statement by COAS. What will it take and if it ever gets fixed is all speculation now.

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## GriffinsRule

SQ8 said:


> J for Jharoo maybe - any US defense or even dual use equipment is no longer on any table for Pakistan. The ramifications of the last few days aren’t going away by a single statement by COAS. What will it take and if it ever gets fixed is all speculation now.


Regime change in the US


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## Thorough Pro

apparently there is no cure for delusions



Bratva said:


> In today's environment, Do you really think American will send J's at all?


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## ghazi52

,.,.,.,.
The No.11 Sqn "Arrows" is the most deadliest Fighter sqn with various "Sher Afgan" trophy winners they are truly PAF's Top Gun.





,.,,..

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## Yasser76

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.,.,.
> The No.11 Sqn "Arrows" is the most deadliest Fighter sqn with various "Sher Afgan" trophy winners they are truly PAF's Top Gun.
> 
> View attachment 830773
> 
> ,.,,..



Did not Number 9 and Number 14 get more kills during the Afghan/Soviet war?


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> J for Jharoo maybe - any US defense or even dual use equipment is no longer on any table for Pakistan. The ramifications of the last few days aren’t going away by a single statement by COAS. What will it take and if it ever gets fixed is all speculation now.


I reckon any attempt to get ex-UK C-130Js also got canned due to US pressure.


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## Scorpiooo



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## SQ8

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> I reckon any attempt to get ex-UK C-130Js also got canned due to US pressure.


Those are going to BD and they will expand - might also end up getting other US hardware as well. US making the effort there to encircle China and essentially make all its neighbors semi-hostile or at least open to not supporting China.

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## Scorpiooo

SQ8 said:


> J for Jharoo maybe - any US defense or even dual use equipment is no longer on any table for Pakistan. The ramifications of the last few days aren’t going away by a single statement by COAS. What will it take and if it ever gets fixed is all speculation now.


For now onwords American based defense stuff for Pakistan chapter will be closed totally..

Now major and most important question is that how Pakistan will keep functional these Americans defense stuff in context of possible blockage of spare parts in coming years


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## Windjammer



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## Yasser76

Scorpiooo said:


> For now onwords American based defense stuff for Pakistan chapter will be closed totally..
> 
> Now major and most important question is that how Pakistan will keep functional these Americans defense stuff in context of possible blockage of spare parts in coming years



I am surprised that spares have not been blocked but reality is that the minimum in cooperation is continuing it seems. We held a exercise just last month with USAF in Pakistan and as recently as late last year contracts are still being awarded for updating the AIDEWS on the F-16s and extending the Technical Security Team contracts for more years, so it does seem the US are doing the very minimum needed to keep our fleet flying. How long this lasts I am not sure, but I agree with you, chapter on US based weaponry has come to an end. For Army it already has (Cobras on the way out and the MII3/M109s we can pretty much maintain ourselves via HIT), Navy just have a few Orions and a single OHP all of which have replacements now being delivered. Only really the F-16 that we depend on for US and of course some critical components in European weapons (ITAR) but I think Pak forces are now keeping these to a minimum


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## Windjammer



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## Scorpiooo

Yasser76 said:


> I am surprised that spares have not been blocked but reality is that the minimum in cooperation is continuing it seems. We held a exercise just last month with USAF in Pakistan and as recently as late last year contracts are still being awarded for updating the AIDEWS on the F-16s and extending the Technical Security Team contracts for more years, so it does seem the US are doing the very minimum needed to keep our fleet flying. How long this lasts I am not sure, but I agree with you, chapter on US based weaponry has come to an end. For Army it already has (Cobras on the way out and the MII3/M109s we can pretty much maintain ourselves via HIT), Navy just have a few Orions and a single OHP all of which have replacements now being delivered. Only really the F-16 that we depend on for US and of course some critical components in European weapons (ITAR) but I think Pak forces are now keeping these to a minimum


Americans will play with time, in coming time we will see any new sanction that will stop spares as well.

You are right Navy is already out is totally going in china major and turkish as secondary supply chain.

Army is almost out in coming years, moving to china alternative for aviation can go to Italian

Regarding PAF F16 they can look for Turkish support under hand or black market to some extend but offcourse for major spare they need Americans and secondly old C130 and TPl redar will need support in coming years.


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## Yasser76

Scorpiooo said:


> Americans will play with time, in coming time we will see any new sanction that will stop spares as well.
> 
> You are right Navy is already out is totally going in china major and turkish as secondary supply chain.
> 
> Army is almost out in coming years, moving to china alternative for aviation can go to Italian
> 
> Regarding PAF F16 they can look for Turkish support under hand or black market to some extend but offcourse for major spare they need Americans and secondly old C130 and TPl redar will need support in coming years.



C-130 spares are very common and extremely difficult to sanction, even Iran and Libya kept their C-130s flying for decades.

F-16 support can indeed come from quite a few friendly countries like Turkey, Indonesia, Iraq etc but eventually will need unique parts and new weapons that we will only be able to source from the US. If it does come to a complete embargo then I guess that means we literally will be one step away from actually being a US enemy, so will have other issues to worry about, I personally do not see the US going that far but nothing they do surprises me anymore.....

Also if the US does embargo us completly there is nothing at all stopping us from giving China every little secret on the Block 52, the Sniper pod, DB-110, AMRAAM C-5 etc and completley kicking the US Technical Security team out of their nice air condition accomodation at Shabaz and Mushaf....

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## Scorpiooo

Yasser76 said:


> C-130 spares are very common and extremely difficult to sanction, even Iran and Libya kept their C-130s flying for decades.
> 
> F-16 support can indeed come from quite a few friendly countries like Turkey, Indonesia, Iraq etc but eventually will need unique parts and new weapons that we will only be able to source from the US. If it does come to a complete embargo then I guess that means we literally will be one step away from actually being a US enemy, so will have other issues to worry about, I personally do not see the US going that far but nothing they do surprises me anymore.....
> 
> Also if the US does embargo us completly there is nothing at all stopping us from giving China every little secret on the Block 52, the Sniper pod, DB-110, AMRAAM C-5 etc and completley kicking the US Technical Security team out of their nice air condition accomodation at Shabaz and Mushaf....


Right sir, C130 will be maintained by black market as in past we even get Israel spare for F16 via black market.

Total sanction might not come due Afghanistan reason, but Americans are good blockage specially when they know its critical..

Regarding china.. what ever we have china already have it by there link.. look as major Chinese stuff most them and good A copies.


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## MastanKhan

Yasser76 said:


> C-130 spares are very common and extremely difficult to sanction, even Iran and Libya kept their C-130s flying for decades.
> 
> F-16 support can indeed come from quite a few friendly countries like Turkey, Indonesia, Iraq etc but eventually will need unique parts and new weapons that we will only be able to source from the US. If it does come to a complete embargo then I guess that means we literally will be one step away from actually being a US enemy, so will have other issues to worry about, I personally do not see the US going that far but nothing they do surprises me anymore.....
> 
> Also if the US does embargo us completly there is nothing at all stopping us from giving China every little secret on the Block 52, the Sniper pod, DB-110, AMRAAM C-5 etc and completley kicking the US Technical Security team out of their nice air condition accomodation at Shabaz and Mushaf....



Hi,

There are a few things we wont do till the end and this is one of them.


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## Windjammer

What the PM saw on 23 March but the cameras missed.

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## dranger22

Yasser76 said:


> Also if the US does embargo us completly there is nothing at all stopping us from giving China every little secret on the Block 52, the Sniper pod, DB-110, AMRAAM C-5 etc and completley kicking the US Technical Security team out of their nice air condition accomodation at Shabaz and Mushaf....


Point to be noted


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## ghazi52

,.,.,.,.,.,.





,.,.,.,.,.

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## Scorpiooo

Griffins

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## WiderMan

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1512381846667116545



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1512368575088144390




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1512399484994699272


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## blain2

Yasser76 said:


> C-130 spares are very common and extremely difficult to sanction, even Iran and Libya kept their C-130s flying for decades.
> 
> F-16 support can indeed come from quite a few friendly countries like Turkey, Indonesia, Iraq etc but eventually will need unique parts and new weapons that we will only be able to source from the US. If it does come to a complete embargo then I guess that means we literally will be one step away from actually being a US enemy, so will have other issues to worry about, I personally do not see the US going that far but nothing they do surprises me anymore.....
> 
> Also if the US does embargo us completly there is nothing at all stopping us from giving China every little secret on the Block 52, the Sniper pod, DB-110, AMRAAM C-5 etc and completley kicking the US Technical Security team out of their nice air condition accomodation at Shabaz and Mushaf....


Don't think the US team is at Shahbaz any longer. That was a fixed duration setup. Now they can conduct inspections by flying in but as far as I know, they do not sit at Shahbaz.

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## Yasser76

blain2 said:


> Don't think the US team is at Shahbaz any longer. That was a fixed duration setup. Now they can conduct inspections by flying in but as far as I know, they do not sit at Shahbaz.



Below seems to indicate that there is TST work being done in Pak, Shabaz would be the obvious choice no?



Booz Allen Hamilton Inc., McLean, Virginia, has been awarded an $11,873,715 cost-plus-fixed-fee, cost-reimbursable contract for Technical Security Team support services. This contract provides for program management, technology security support, food services support and facilities management support. Work will be performed in locations in Pakistan and is expected to be *completed by June 30, 2022.* This contract involves 100% Foreign Military Sales (FMS) and was a sole-source acquisition. FMS funds in the amount of $11,873,715 were obligated at time of award. The Air Force Security and Assistance Directorate, Wright Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, is the contracting activity (FA8630-22-C-5001).

PDF Version
pakistan_19-29.pdf
Media/Public Contact
pm-cpa@state.gov
Transmittal No
19-29
WASHINGTON, July 26, 2019 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan for Technical Security Team (TST) in continued support of the F-16 program for an estimated cost of $125 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on July 26, 2019.
The Government of Pakistan requested a continuation of technical support services; U.S. Government and contractor technical and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistics support to assist in the oversight of operations in support of the Pakistan Peace Drive advanced F-16 program. The total estimated program cost is $125 million.
This proposed sale will support the foreign policy and national security of the United States by protecting U.S. technology through the continued presence of U.S. personnel that provide 24/7 end-use monitoring.
The proposed sale of this support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.
The principal contractor is Booz Allen Hamilton Engineering Services LLC, Fairborn, Ohio.
*Implementation of this proposed sale will require the assignment of 60 contractor representatives to Pakistan to assist in the oversight of operations as part of the Peace Drive F-16 program.*
There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.
This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.
All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, pm-cpa@state.gov.
-30-

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## blain2

Thanks for posting. I had it in my mind that this was a fixed duration contract but I did not know it was to last till June of this year. I thought this had expired earlier.

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## rvats

X-Posting my own post:

Gentlemen - I've tried to do an analysis of Pakistan Air Force's Air to Ground Weapons & Capability. And the kind of threat and challenge it poses to India. Please do have a look and do share your feedback. Do point out errors, if any, in the comments section. Or, in case I've missed something significant.

I've attempted to do an objective, and factual analysis here. Request you to keep the replies/comments factual and to the point.

Many thanks.

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## MastanKhan

rvats said:


> X-Posting my own post:
> 
> Gentlemen - I've tried to do an analysis of Pakistan Air Force's Air to Ground Weapons & Capability. And the kind of threat and challenge it poses to India. Please do have a look and do share your feedback. Do point out errors, if any, in the comments section. Or, in case I've missed something significant.
> 
> I've attempted to do an objective, and factual analysis here. Request you to keep the replies/comments factual and to the point.
> 
> Many thanks.



Hi,

Thank you for the video. Great effort.


----------



## ghazi52

.,.,.







Syed Zohaib Zaidi Photography
,.,.,.,

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## PanzerKiel

Evening was approaching Pathankot as Wing Commander Dandapani made a phone call to Pathankot air base from Amritsar's 230 SU. Dandapani asked for (Pathankot station commander Group Captain Roshan) Suri, and on being told that he was not available was put through to Wing Commander Kuriyan, the OC Flying.
Dandapani told Kuriyan that they had painted several Sabres, coming from the vicinity of Sarghoda and going 'off the scope', as they went below the radar horizon. But he could see one lone aircraft coming in at an altitude of 19,000 feet. This lone aircraft was probably scouting the way ahead for the main formation. This had all the tell-tale signs of an incoming raid. Dandapani suggested that Kuriyan scramble Pathankot's air defence fighters.
Here, things get confusing. Dandapani insists that Kuriyan refused to scramble the air patrol and pooh-poohed his fears of the incoming raid. Kuriyan claims to have immediately informed Suri... but was ordered off the shift... Squadron Leader J F Josephs, duty pilot that day in the ATC, could overhear the radio conversation between Kuriyan and Dandapani. As one ATC officer turned to him and asked, 'What the hell is going on?' Josephs replied 'Don't ask, just watch the west'.
Even as frantic attempts were made to get Base Ops on the phone, all eyes in the ATC turned west... As the Sabres left, 10 plumes of smoke rose in the air. The raid had been highly successful, resulting in the destruction of ten IAF aircraft...

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## Gripen9

PanzerKiel said:


> Evening was approaching Pathankot as Wing Commander Dandapani made a phone call to Pathankot air base from Amritsar's 230 SU. Dandapani asked for (Pathankot station commander Group Captain Roshan) Suri, and on being told that he was not available was put through to Wing Commander Kuriyan, the OC Flying.
> Dandapani told Kuriyan that they had painted several Sabres, coming from the vicinity of Sarghoda and going 'off the scope', as they went below the radar horizon. But he could see one lone aircraft coming in at an altitude of 19,000 feet. This lone aircraft was probably scouting the way ahead for the main formation. This had all the tell-tale signs of an incoming raid. Dandapani suggested that Kuriyan scramble Pathankot's air defence fighters.
> Here, things get confusing. Dandapani insists that Kuriyan refused to scramble the air patrol and pooh-poohed his fears of the incoming raid. Kuriyan claims to have immediately informed Suri... but was ordered off the shift... Squadron Leader J F Josephs, duty pilot that day in the ATC, could overhear the radio conversation between Kuriyan and Dandapani. As one ATC officer turned to him and asked, 'What the hell is going on?' Josephs replied 'Don't ask, just watch the west'.
> Even as frantic attempts were made to get Base Ops on the phone, all eyes in the ATC turned west... As the Sabres left, 10 plumes of smoke rose in the air. The raid had been highly successful, resulting in the destruction of ten IAF aircraft...

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## Bleek

PanzerKiel said:


> Evening was approaching Pathankot as Wing Commander Dandapani made a phone call to Pathankot air base from Amritsar's 230 SU. Dandapani asked for (Pathankot station commander Group Captain Roshan) Suri, and on being told that he was not available was put through to Wing Commander Kuriyan, the OC Flying.
> Dandapani told Kuriyan that they had painted several Sabres, coming from the vicinity of Sarghoda and going 'off the scope', as they went below the radar horizon. But he could see one lone aircraft coming in at an altitude of 19,000 feet. This lone aircraft was probably scouting the way ahead for the main formation. This had all the tell-tale signs of an incoming raid. Dandapani suggested that Kuriyan scramble Pathankot's air defence fighters.
> Here, things get confusing. Dandapani insists that Kuriyan refused to scramble the air patrol and pooh-poohed his fears of the incoming raid. Kuriyan claims to have immediately informed Suri... but was ordered off the shift... Squadron Leader J F Josephs, duty pilot that day in the ATC, could overhear the radio conversation between Kuriyan and Dandapani. As one ATC officer turned to him and asked, 'What the hell is going on?' Josephs replied 'Don't ask, just watch the west'.
> Even as frantic attempts were made to get Base Ops on the phone, all eyes in the ATC turned west... As the Sabres left, 10 plumes of smoke rose in the air. The raid had been highly successful, resulting in the destruction of ten IAF aircraft...


Any good book recommendations to read on the PAF and the missions they've carried out?


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## PanzerKiel

Bleek said:


> Any good book recommendations to read on the PAF and the missions they've carried out?


Great Air Battles of Pakistan Air Force by Kaiser Tufail and Flight of the Falcon by Nosey Haider. These are the only ones which i have read at least.

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## Gripen9

PanzerKiel said:


> Great Air Battles of Pakistan Air Force by Kaiser Tufail and Flight of the Falcon by Nosey Haider. These are the only ones which i have read at least.


Look what I found on my desk!
I will also add "In the ring and on its Feet" by A/Cdre Kaiser Tufail. A brilliant and dispassionate account of PAF's preparation and execution on 71 air war in both theaters.
Also if you can find Fiza'yya - Psyche of Pakistan Airforce by Pushpinder Singh and Ravi Rakhiye. A very goo account of PAF as seen by our eastern neighbors. Pushpinder Singh was arguably one of the best Military Aviation journalist from South Asia. They were given unrestricted access to PAF archives and they did a good job.

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## GriffinsRule

There are also PAF Bomber Missions by PAF book club and The First Kill 1957 and beyond.

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## Windjammer

Battle for Pakistan by John Fricker is also highly illustrated.

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## arslank03

rvats said:


> X-Posting my own post:
> 
> Gentlemen - I've tried to do an analysis of Pakistan Air Force's Air to Ground Weapons & Capability. And the kind of threat and challenge it poses to India. Please do have a look and do share your feedback. Do point out errors, if any, in the comments section. Or, in case I've missed something significant.
> 
> I've attempted to do an objective, and factual analysis here. Request you to keep the replies/comments factual and to the point.
> 
> Many thanks.



3 minutes in and its already full of inaccuracies and bias.


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## White privilege

Gripen9 said:


> View attachment 834479


They still rue that day, _The day the PAF got away...._

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## Raja Porus

Windjammer said:


> Battle for Pakistan by John Fricker is also highly illustrated.
> 
> View attachment 834594


Sajjad Haider calls it inaccurate in his Flight of the falcon


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## Raja Porus

PanzerKiel said:


> But he could see one lone aircraft coming in at an altitude of 19,000 feet.


Arshad sami or Tawab?

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## MastanKhan

PanzerKiel said:


> Great Air Battles of Pakistan Air Force by Kaiser Tufail and Flight of the Falcon by Nosey Haider. These are the only ones which i have read at least.



Hi,

In 1966 or 67--at Lahore railway station, at the book stall I saw this book---"Story Of The Paf Heroes" and made my dad buy it for me. It still sitting on the shelf at home. 

Still love that book to this day.

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## Thorough Pro

That is the best thing to happen to free our armed forces of US slavery.



Scorpiooo said:


> For now onwords American based defense stuff for Pakistan chapter will be closed totally..
> 
> Now major and most important question is that how Pakistan will keep functional these Americans defense stuff in context of possible blockage of spare parts in coming years


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## Windjammer

A Drone intercepting an F-16.

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## ghazi52

.,.
Combination..





,,,

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## CSAW

"*Apr 11, 2022- WASHINGTON — According to Reuters, the US government is also positive about the sale of new F-16 Viper fighters in Turkey, as well as the modernization of a total of 80 F-16 Viper fighters, learned BulgarianMilitary.com."*










US is ready to sell F-16 Viper to Turkey and upgrade 80 more aircraft


US government is also positive about the sale of new F-16s in Turkey, as well as the modernization of a total of 80 more fighters learned BulgarianMilitary.com.




bulgarianmilitary.com






================================

*" March - 2022: Following years of contemplation, the US Air Force has finally decided to upgrade its 608 F-16 Block 40 and 50 in one of the largest modernization initiatives in history*
The Air Force Life Cycle Management Center announced on 28 Feb the F-16 Fighter jets will get up to 22 modifications. The program aims to increase the lethality of aircraft and ensure that the fourth-generation fighter can confront current and future threats.

The 22 modifications include an Active Electronically Scanned Array radar, new cockpit displays, a new mission computer, and a new database. The fighters will also receive next-generation electronic warfare capability as well as a Communication Suite Upgrade, a Center Display Unit, a Programmable Data Generator, and several other key hardware components to modernize the aircraft.

The complex project, known as Post Block Integration Team or PoBIT, is being led by the Air Force Life Cycle Management Center’s Fighters and Advanced Aircraft Directorate, which formulated the strategy to organize and install the upgrades on the aircraft..."










US Air Force Undertakes 'World's Biggest Upgradation Program' For F-16 Fighter Jets; Says Warplanes Will Fly Upto 2070


Following years of contemplation, the US Air Force has finally decided to upgrade its 608 F-16 Block 40 and 50 in one of the largest modernization initiatives in history. The Air Force Life Cycle Management Center announced on 28 Feb the F-16 Fighter jets will get up to 22 modifications. The...




eurasiantimes.com





++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



























Lockheed Martin F-16


Lockheed Martin F-16 user+1@localho… Thu, 02/10/2022 - 21:17 The F-16 \




www.pilotnews.com

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## lightning F57

Are the F35s meant to replace the F16s. Wonder why they would upgrade their F16 fleet,maybe a cost factor.


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## ZedZeeshan

CSAW said:


> "*Apr 11, 2022- WASHINGTON — According to Reuters, the US government is also positive about the sale of new F-16 Viper fighters in Turkey, as well as the modernization of a total of 80 F-16 Viper fighters, learned BulgarianMilitary.com."*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US is ready to sell F-16 Viper to Turkey and upgrade 80 more aircraft
> 
> 
> US government is also positive about the sale of new F-16s in Turkey, as well as the modernization of a total of 80 more fighters learned BulgarianMilitary.com.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bulgarianmilitary.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ================================
> 
> *" March - 2022: Following years of contemplation, the US Air Force has finally decided to upgrade its 608 F-16 Block 40 and 50 in one of the largest modernization initiatives in history*
> The Air Force Life Cycle Management Center announced on 28 Feb the F-16 Fighter jets will get up to 22 modifications. The program aims to increase the lethality of aircraft and ensure that the fourth-generation fighter can confront current and future threats.
> 
> The 22 modifications include an Active Electronically Scanned Array radar, new cockpit displays, a new mission computer, and a new database. The fighters will also receive next-generation electronic warfare capability as well as a Communication Suite Upgrade, a Center Display Unit, a Programmable Data Generator, and several other key hardware components to modernize the aircraft.
> 
> The complex project, known as Post Block Integration Team or PoBIT, is being led by the Air Force Life Cycle Management Center’s Fighters and Advanced Aircraft Directorate, which formulated the strategy to organize and install the upgrades on the aircraft..."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> US Air Force Undertakes 'World's Biggest Upgradation Program' For F-16 Fighter Jets; Says Warplanes Will Fly Upto 2070
> 
> 
> Following years of contemplation, the US Air Force has finally decided to upgrade its 608 F-16 Block 40 and 50 in one of the largest modernization initiatives in history. The Air Force Life Cycle Management Center announced on 28 Feb the F-16 Fighter jets will get up to 22 modifications. The...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eurasiantimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> 
> View attachment 835361
> View attachment 835362
> 
> 
> View attachment 835360
> 
> View attachment 835359
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lockheed Martin F-16
> 
> 
> Lockheed Martin F-16 user+1@localho… Thu, 02/10/2022 - 21:17 The F-16 \
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pilotnews.com


what does this has to do with PAF F16's????

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## CSAW

ZedZeeshan said:


> what does this has to do with PAF F16's????



Really Appreciate your input.......
Plz ignore if its not relevant.
Thanks


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## Trailer23

ZedZeeshan said:


> what does this has to do with PAF F16's????


Yaar, aik [PDF



] wallo ke Iftar rakhtay hain aur waha discuss kareyengay kay F-Shola ka kya bun-na hai  .

Just like in every Living Room in Pakistan has a Chief Selector for the Cricket Team..., we can have our own version over pakoras & Rooh Afza.

@PakSword @Super Falcon @Sabretooth @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan


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## ghazi52

,.,.,.,.,




.,.,

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## araz

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.,.,.,
> View attachment 835539
> 
> .,.,


In my view it remains and will remain one of the most beautiful aircrafts ever created.
A

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## Gripen9

White privilege said:


> They still rue that day, _The day the PAF got away...._


Unfortunately PAF failed to deliver the killer blow. Only Pathankot strike was successful. Simultaneous strike on Halwara was supposed to be 8x F-86. We could only muster 3. They were met with superior enemy numbers already alerted by Pathankot strike. Our lions went down fighting against all odds.
Similarly PAF Masroor was supposed to launch 8x F-86s against Jamnagar on the same day. However the strike was inexplicably called off by Base Commander A/Cdre Khaqan Abbasi (Father of the pants off former PM of Pakistan). Per A/Cdre Sajjad Haider, he should have been court martialed for cowardice.

Here are 2 good write ups on both .

A/Cdre Kaiser Tufail: Halwara Strike http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/2008/11/theirs-but-to-do-and-die.html

A/Cdre Sajjad Haider: Khaqan Abbasi the Corrupt Coward https://www.monthlyinteraction.com/shahid-abbasi-son-cdre-khaqan-abbasi-pm-joke/

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## ghazi52

Another beautiful picture...........

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## White privilege

Gripen9 said:


> Unfortunately PAF failed to deliver the killer blow. Only Pathankot strike was successful. Simultaneous strike on Halwara was supposed to be 8x F-86. We could only muster 3. They were met with superior enemy numbers already alerted by Pathankot strike. Our lions went down fighting against all odds.
> Similarly PAF Masroor was supposed to launch 8x F-86s against Jamnagar on the same day. However the strike was inexplicably called off by Base Commander A/Cdre Khaqan Abbasi (Father of the pants off former PM of Pakistan). Per A/Cdre Sajjad Haider, he should have been court martialed for cowardice.
> 
> Here are 2 good write ups on both .
> 
> A/Cdre Kaiser Tufail: Halwara Strike http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/2008/11/theirs-but-to-do-and-die.html
> 
> A/Cdre Sajjad Haider: Khaqan Abbasi the Corrupt Coward https://www.monthlyinteraction.com/shahid-abbasi-son-cdre-khaqan-abbasi-pm-joke/


Yep much more should have been done, _War is young men dying, and old men talking_


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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer

Damn, where is the sky gone.

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## Scorpiooo

Lets see current political situation .. leads to what future of vipers in PAF love story


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## ghazi52

.,.,.,.,.
@HFKRAW

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## Windjammer

Interestingly some PAF Vipers support high viz markings.

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## ghazi52

Clearly aggressive looking..
@HFKRAW

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## Windjammer



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## Raider 21

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,.,.
> View attachment 836279


Fantastic picture but ruined by watermark


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## ghazi52

.,.,..

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## ghazi52

Ready for action...

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## air marshal



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## ghazi52

.,..,

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## hassan1



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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

,.,.,

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## johncliu88

Came across a Chinese video clip on YouTube saying that USAF will sell over 600 used F-16 jets soon and Pakistan is the first customer waiting in line to buy some. Is this true?

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## Trailer23

johncliu88 said:


> Came across a Chinese video clip on YouTube saying that USAF will sell over 600 used F-16 jets soon and Pakistan is the first customer waiting in line to buy some. Is this true?


Its as true as me taking Jessica Alba on a romantic dinner to _*KFC*_.

But @ziaulislam promised us some, so he outta have better knowledge. His Party is making waves with the US, so we should be getting all 600 of those used Vipers.

What good is Showbaz Sharif is he can't score used jets...


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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> Its as true as me taking Jessica Alba on a romantic dinner to _*KFC*_.
> 
> But @ziaulislam promised us some, so he outta have better knowledge. His Party is making waves with the US, so we should be getting all 600 of those used Vipers.
> 
> What good is Showbaz Sharif is he can't score used jets...


They were promised..whether delivery happens or not is complicatd but you will see some soon
Aftr all last time we got those from jordan


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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> They were promised..whether delivery happens or not is complicatd but you will see some soon
> Aftr all last time we got those from jordan


How many used? Any upgrades? Coming from Boneyard or third country? I doubt there will be new


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## Scorpiooo

mingle said:


> How many used? Any upgrades? Coming from Boneyard or third country? I doubt there will be new


Now there is chance to have some Choongaa (peanut s )in term of f16 for serving Americans purpose in Pakistan politics

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Signalian

Scorpiooo said:


> For now onwords American based defense stuff for Pakistan chapter will be closed totally..
> 
> Now major and most important question is that how Pakistan will keep functional these Americans defense stuff in context of possible blockage of spare parts in coming years


With Pakistan top brass caving in to Us demands and IK mentioning US conspiracy, hard to believe its possible. 
Pakistan gets F-16s when the top brass nods and bows head to USA. Makes sense ?

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## ghazi52

.,,.

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## Sinnerman108

Signalian said:


> With Pakistan top brass caving in to Us demands and IK mentioning US conspiracy, hard to believe its possible.
> Pakistan gets F-16s when the top brass nods and bows head to USA. Makes sense ?



Which the top brass has obediently done.

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## adelphi

Signalian said:


> With Pakistan top brass caving in to Us demands and IK mentioning US conspiracy, hard to believe its possible.
> Pakistan gets F-16s when the top brass nods and bows head to USA. Makes sense ?


US would certainly like to keep an eye on Afghanistan. For that they need to have atleast an air corridor if not Shamsi like arrangement. "Absolutely Not" didn't help. Whether it was only IK decision, I don't know. I'll only give weight to foreign conspiracy theory if any of above is given. But is it enough for F-16s, I don't think so.


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## Signalian

Sinnerman108 said:


> Which the top brass has obediently done.


When are V’s landing then ?

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## ziaulislam

Signalian said:


> When are V’s landing then ?


No the deal is for used b52..not Vs

Vs will only come of pakistan settle issues with india

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## Signalian



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## Signalian

ziaulislam said:


> No the deal is for used b52..not Vs
> 
> Vs will only come of pakistan settle issues with india


Sastay mein bak gaye, nai ? 

The good thing is that Block-52+ have Pulse Doppler (PD) radars which has inherent Electronic Protection (EP) features like:
1.It expects its return in a narrow frequency range, so it can discriminate against noncoherent jamming.
2. t can see spurious outputs from jammers.
3. It can see frequency spreading from chaff.
4. It can see separating targets.
5. It can correlate range rate and Doppler shift.

Jamming a PD radar is tricky so if a jammer is to deceive a PD radar it must generate a coherent jamming signal. When a jammer has a digital radio frequency memory (DRFM), it will be able to measure the frequency (and other parameters of PD radar) of the first pulse it sees and make accurate copies of all subsequent pulses during the time the radar beam is covering the target on which the jammer is located. A PD radar can have multiple operating frequencies, thus frequency diversity. A more challenging use of frequency diversity is assignment of one frequency per sweep of the radar antenna. This gives the radar the advantage of a single frequency during its coherent processing interval. Because the jammer cannot anticipate the frequency of future pulses, it is impossible to optimally jam the radar. Also PD radar can be expected to avoid frequencies at which jamming is detected, so jamming a few of the frequencies is unlikely to improve the jamming performance.

Another thing, since a PD radar can detect jamming, it will allow any missile system that has a home-on-jam capability to select the home-on-jam operating mode. If the radar detects jamming, it can then go into a home-on-jam mode, causing the missile to steer itself toward the jammer. This feature makes it very dangerous to use self protection jamming for terminal protection. Because this mode can also be used against a stand-off jammer, it can threaten this high-value/low-inventory asset if the BVR missile has sufficient range to reach the stand-off jamming location.

The PD radar has three types:
*Low PRF * is very useful for target acquisition
*Medium PRF* was developed to enhance tail chase engagements.
*High PRF* is ideal for use in a high speed head-on engagement with a target

Now, is F-16 PD radar composed of all three types ?

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,.,

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## Sinnerman108

Signalian said:


> When are V’s landing then ?



When the masters feel like so
beggars can't be choosers.

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## Signalian

Sinnerman108 said:


> When the masters feel like so
> beggars can't be choosers.


The burning is more than F-16 C dry thrust 🔝


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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## GriffinsRule

There are no used B52s anywhere for sale. That's completely bonkers

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## SQ8

Signalian said:


> With Pakistan top brass caving in to Us demands and IK mentioning US conspiracy, hard to believe its possible.
> Pakistan gets F-16s when the top brass nods and bows head to USA. Makes sense ?


Unlikely at this point - not so much for approval from the state but congressional approval which will get the Terror and China speedbump.

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## MisterSyed

Signalian said:


> Sastay mein bak gaye, nai ?
> 
> The good thing is that Block-52+ have Pulse Doppler (PD) radars which has inherent Electronic Protection (EP) features like:
> 1.It expects its return in a narrow frequency range, so it can discriminate against noncoherent jamming.
> 2. t can see spurious outputs from jammers.
> 3. It can see frequency spreading from chaff.
> 4. It can see separating targets.
> 5. It can correlate range rate and Doppler shift.
> 
> Jamming a PD radar is tricky so if a jammer is to deceive a PD radar it must generate a coherent jamming signal. When a jammer has a digital radio frequency memory (DRFM), it will be able to measure the frequency (and other parameters of PD radar) of the first pulse it sees and make accurate copies of all subsequent pulses during the time the radar beam is covering the target on which the jammer is located. A PD radar can have multiple operating frequencies, thus frequency diversity. A more challenging use of frequency diversity is assignment of one frequency per sweep of the radar antenna. This gives the radar the advantage of a single frequency during its coherent processing interval. Because the jammer cannot anticipate the frequency of future pulses, it is impossible to optimally jam the radar. Also PD radar can be expected to avoid frequencies at which jamming is detected, so jamming a few of the frequencies is unlikely to improve the jamming performance.
> 
> Another thing, since a PD radar can detect jamming, it will allow any missile system that has a home-on-jam capability to select the home-on-jam operating mode. If the radar detects jamming, it can then go into a home-on-jam mode, causing the missile to steer itself toward the jammer. This feature makes it very dangerous to use self protection jamming for terminal protection. Because this mode can also be used against a stand-off jammer, it can threaten this high-value/low-inventory asset if the BVR missile has sufficient range to reach the stand-off jamming location.
> 
> The PD radar has three types:
> *Low PRF * is very useful for target acquisition
> *Medium PRF* was developed to enhance tail chase engagements.
> *High PRF* is ideal for use in a high speed head-on engagement with a target
> 
> Now, is F-16 PD radar composed of all three types ?


Man wrote a paragraph for the thing that won't even come 🙄😭


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## Signalian

MisterSyed said:


> Man wrote a paragraph for the thing that won't even come 🙄😭


Kahan se uth k aa jatay hain 

95% of PAF fighter aircarfts have PD radar except FC-20 which is supposed to be AESA.

All F-16s in PAF have PD radar.
JF-17 Block I and II have PD radar.
Grifo series radar used by F-7 and Mirage is PD.

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## MisterSyed

Signalian said:


> Kahan se uth k aa jatay hain
> 
> 95% of PAF fighter aircarfts have PD radar except FC-20 which is supposed to be AESA.
> 
> All F-16s in PAF have PD radar.
> JF-17 Block I and II have PD radar.
> Grifo series radar used by F-7 and Mirage is PD.


I meant the BLk52 F16s. New ones won't come probably 😥


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## Sinnerman108

Signalian said:


> The burning is more than F-16 C dry thrust 🔝


can you blame me ?


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## Signalian

Sinnerman108 said:


> can you blame me ?


Nahi. I blame Israelis for taking F-16 to its max limit on bombing run in Iraq to generate PAF interest in F-16.

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## MIRauf

Signalian said:


> Nahi. I blame Israelis for taking F-16 to its max limit on bombing run in Iraq to generate PAF interest in F-16.


I thought PAF had opted for F-16 before the Basra Reactor attack.

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## SQ8

MIRauf said:


> I thought PAF had opted for F-16 before the Basra Reactor attack.


They did - in the words of ACM Shamim - it was as if someone took the Air Staff Requirements kf PAF and built an aircraft using it

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SQ8 said:


> They did - in the words of ACM Shamim - it was as if someone took the Air Staff Requirements kf PAF and built an aircraft using it


If not for Pressler, the PAF was on the same track as the other major F-16 users -- i.e., 150+ aircraft by 2000.

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## sparten

SQ8 said:


> They did - in the words of ACM Shamim - it was as if someone took the Air Staff Requirements kf PAF and built an aircraft using it


Not surprising. The PAF was one of the few major AF in that era to have major combat experience. Plus the Indo-Pak theatre was much more alike to what a European war would look like compared to the postage stamped sized battle space of the Arab-Israeli wars, so designers took a lot of the PAF experience into account which we had shared it freely with USAF and RAF.

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## Signalian

@Raider 21 

PAF F-16 pilots use travel pods on F-16 for carrying their personal belongings or the accompanying C-130 carries every thing ?


----------



## Gripen9

Signalian said:


> @Raider 21
> 
> PAF F-16 pilots use travel pods on F-16 for carrying their personal belongings or the accompanying C-130 carries every thing ?


C-130

Travel pods would usually be used when deploying to FOBs with minimal support.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## fatman17

If people still have notions that the USA 🇺🇸 will agree to deliver further quantities of F16s, please forget such delusions. Cheers

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## lightning F57

They are great planes, served Pak well but have to look beyond them. The US is not a reliable partner for Pak and their strategic shift is towards India and any nation who has lots of money to buy US dollars.

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## Gripen9

fatman17 said:


> If people still have notions that the USA 🇺🇸 will agree to deliver further quantities of F16s, please forget such delusions. Cheers


Welcome back sir.

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## fatman17

Gripen9 said:


> Welcome back sir.


Thanks a lot 🙏


----------



## Raider 21

Signalian said:


> @Raider 21
> 
> PAF F-16 pilots use travel pods on F-16 for carrying their personal belongings or the accompanying C-130 carries every thing ?


Yes they use travel pods



ghazi52 said:


> .,.,.,
> View attachment 843727


God bless his soul

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## mingle

Raider 21 said:


> Yes they use travel pods
> 
> 
> God bless his soul


Who is He?


----------



## SQ8

mingle said:


> Who is He?


ACdre Rizwan Shaheed if I am not mistaken

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## mingle

SQ8 said:


> ACdre Rizwan Shaheed if I am not mistaken


OK Kohat plane crash?


----------



## Raider 21

mingle said:


> Who is He?


Raja Rizwanullah. First fighter pilot in PAF who was also an aerospace engineering graduate. Died in 2002 with many of PAF's senior leadership in a Fokker aircraft.

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## Signalian

Raider 21 said:


> Yes they use travel pods
> 
> 
> God bless his soul


Any instances when B's take off with one pilot only. Rare, common or never happened?


----------



## Trailer23

Signalian said:


> Any instances when B's take off with one pilot only. Rare, common or never happened?


There isn't any footage of Taxing, but in this interview you can see the Sqn Ldr. talk about flying the B-Variant & later getting ready for a flight without GIBS.

Time Stamped - Click Play.

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## Raider 21

Signalian said:


> Any instances when B's take off with one pilot only. Rare, common or never happened?


Yes many times. Common practice.


----------



## ghazi52

..,.,.,

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## TsAr

Good to see you back!


fatman17 said:


> If people still have notions that the USA 🇺🇸 will agree to deliver further quantities of F16s, please forget such delusions. Cheers

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## fatman17

TsAr said:


> Good to see you back!


Thanks a lot. Cheers

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## haroonn

Raider 21 said:


> Yes many times. Common practice.


If I remember correctly, PAF's UAV kill in June 2002 was made by Sqn. Ldr. Zulfiqar flying solo in F-16B.


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

All is beneath my wings ...

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## Raider 21

haroonn said:


> If I remember correctly, PAF's UAV kill in June 2002 was made by Sqn. Ldr. Zulfiqar flying solo in F-16B.


Negative. Flown by two pilots. The other pilot was the F-16 demo pilot at this year's March 23rd parade


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## Signalian

Any chance Block 60/62 could join PAF after retirement from UAEAF or replacement by UAE Rafales.

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## Sanwal!!

Raider 21 said:


> Raja Rizwanullah. First fighter pilot in PAF who was also an aerospace engineering graduate. Died in 2002 with many of PAF's senior leadership in a Fokker aircraft.


His wife was Paktel's CIO back in the late 90s.


----------



## White privilege

Raider 21 said:


> Negative. Flown by two pilots. The other pilot was the F-16 demo pilot at this year's March 23rd parade


But this year's Viper demo pilot was _W/C Affan Aslam _, and the attached image of the of the IAF UAV debris trophy lists the pilot names as _Sqn Ldr Zulfiqar Ayub_ and _Sqn Ldr Afzal Awan....



_

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## Sinnerman108

Signalian said:


> Any chance Block 60/62 could join PAF after retirement from UAEAF or replacement by UAE Rafales.


 
Don't know about F-16s, but the Mirages !!!!!


----------



## Trailer23

White privilege said:


> But this year's Viper demo pilot was _W/C Affan Aslam..._

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## Raider 21

White privilege said:


> But this year's Viper demo pilot was _W/C Affan Aslam _, and the attached image of the of the IAF UAV debris trophy lists the pilot names as _Sqn Ldr Zulfiqar Ayub_ and _Sqn Ldr Afzal Awan....
> View attachment 845738
> _


Possibly. I could be mistaken. Even seeing an Ali flying USAF Vipers at Fort Worth had me confused a bit.



Signalian said:


> Any chance Block 60/62 could join PAF after retirement from UAEAF or replacement by UAE Rafales.


Not for now as they have no plans to retire. The cadre of Emiratis pilots are racking 3-4k hours in the jets with many more expected to join the pipeline and have it in service for another decade or so.


----------



## AeroEngineer

Raider 21 said:


> Raja Rizwanullah. First fighter pilot in PAF who was also an aerospace engineering graduate. Died in 2002 with many of PAF's senior leadership in a Fokker aircraft.


I think W/C Amir Maqsood maybe earlier than him. He shot down Mig-21 from a F-86. Then went on to CAE to graduate at the top of his majors. Don’t know why retired early.


----------



## White privilege

Raider 21 said:


> Possibly. I could be mistaken. Even seeing an Ali flying USAF Vipers at Fort Worth had me confused a bit.


No prob. Actually I remembered the rank (W/C), from the parade announcement, so it got me thinking.If someone was flying combat missions 20 years ago, then surely they should have made beyond W/C by now.I don't know about the PAF ranking criteria, just my observation.


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

36 years ago, 'TOP GUN' was released in theatres. Besides the point while Top Gun is a fictional movie, in the late 80s PAF actually shot down multiple Soviet and Afghan jets over the western border, One of the captured pilots was Russia's future Vice President.
What's baffling is that 90% of Pakistanis don't know this.....

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## MastanKhan

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> 36 years ago, 'TOP GUN' was released in theatres. Besides the point while Top Gun is a fictional movie, in the late 80s PAF actually shot down multiple Soviet and Afghan jets over the western border, One of the captured pilots was Russia's future Vice President.
> What's baffling is that 90% of Pakistanis don't know this.....
> View attachment 846173



Hi,

F16 was a top notch aircraft---the russian pilots aircraft was a third rate aircraft---.

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## Scorpiooo

US Air Force Undertakes ‘World’s Biggest Upgradation Program’ For F-16 Fighter Jets; Says Warplanes Will Fly Upto 2070














US Air Force Undertakes ‘World’s Biggest Upgradation Program’ For F-16 Fighter Jets; Says Warplanes Will Fly Upto 2070


Following years of contemplation, the US Air Force has finally […]



military.autodailyz.com

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## Trailer23

Just a _Teaser_...

I'll be releasing a video in a weeks time.

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## Signalian

AN/ALQ 257 IVIEWS by NG will be tested as primary EW system for F-16s. The other one is Viper Shield AN/ALQ 254 by L3 Harris. PAF can look into both.

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## SQ8

Signalian said:


> AN/ALQ 257 IVIEWS by NG will be tested as primary EW system for F-16s. The other one is Viper Shield AN/ALQ 254 by L3 Harris. PAF can look into both.


Any system cannot be superior to what the IAF fields per current US policy otherwise they lose the impetus built with the Quad.

Pakistan is in the middle of the river stuck in a whirlpool and going nowhere in terms of camp based defense procurement

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## Signalian

SQ8 said:


> Any system cannot be superior to what the IAF fields per current US policy otherwise they lose the impetus built with the Quad.
> 
> Pakistan is in the middle of the river stuck in a whirlpool and going nowhere in terms of camp based defense procurement


My first concern was that if these system only work with SABR. Geo political was second.


----------



## ghazi52

.,.,

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## monitor

One of the glorious most important mission ever conducted by paf F-16.👌💪

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## Signalian

^^

6 x Aim-9 for each, i am guessing.


----------



## Windjammer

PAF Viper executing Cuban 8.

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## ghazi52

.,.,
"Peace to each soul that sleepeth
Rest to each faithful eye that weepeth"

Two Friends, Two Squadron Mates, Two Griffins, Two ACE F-16 Operators & Both Went Down With Their F-16s.








Squadron Leader Saud Ghulam Nabi Shaheed :- July 17, 2009 In F-16 A Serial #92729 .

Wing Commander Noman Akram Shaheed :- March 11, 2020 In F-16 AM Serial #92730 .

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## Windjammer

Falcon Formation Break.

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## Jango

ghazi52 said:


> Squadron Leader Saud Ghulam Nabi Shaheed :- July 17, 2009 In F-16 A Serial #92729 .
> 
> Wing Commander Noman Akram Shaheed :- March 11, 2020 In F-16 AM Serial #92730 .



Are the serial numbers correct?

If so, thatis very eerie...


----------



## 3030

Something more to it, PAF had received 28 A models in the initial 40. Next batch was half of the embargoed one with only 02 A models, tails 92729 and 92730.

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## Sinnerman108

3030 said:


> Something more to it, PAF had received 28 A models in the initial 40. Next batch was half of the embargoed one with only 02 A models, tails 92729 and 92730.


indeed very strange.


----------



## Trailer23



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## GriffinsRule

Sinnerman108 said:


> indeed very strange.


What's so strange?


----------



## ghazi52

.,..,






Syed Zohaib Zaidi Photography​
June 02, 2022.

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## Windjammer

Vipers in the Bush.

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## Windjammer

Putting a single engine, high performance jet through it's paces over the heart of your Capital, requires both skill and confidence.

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## Windjammer

Afterburner Kicks in for the Muscle Climb.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Catalystic

Can our pilot in a jf-17 or f-16 or j10 shootdown/defeat an indian operated Rafaele in a dogfight??

Yes or No?


----------



## SQ8

Catalystic said:


> Can our pilot in a jf-17 or f-16 or j10 shootdown/defeat an indian operated Rafaele in a dogfight??
> 
> Yes or No?


Which pilot? Where? What scenario? 
Its air combat - and you are simplifying it to a game of ludo.. even that requires probability

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## Catalystic

SQ8 said:


> Which pilot? Where? What scenario?
> Its air combat - and you are simplifying it to a game of ludo.. even that requires probability


Lets say a fight between the bedt pilots of both sides…..do or die scenario, for example if they attack with Rafale, are we able to shoot it down or they win by shooting us down?? Are our planes capable of defeating Rafale is the basic question

Like if they try to repeat that abhinandan incident but with skillful pilot in a Rafale…


----------



## SQ8

Catalystic said:


> Lets say a fight between the bedt pilots of both sides…..do or die scenario, for example if they attack with Rafale, are we able to shoot it down or they win by shooting us down?? Are our planes capable of defeating Rafale is the basic question
> 
> Like if they try to repeat that abhinandan incident but with skillful pilot in a Rafale…


Its too basic a question. Air combat is a combination of factors including force combination, configuration and position of combat aircraft in engagement along with overall air plan.

Technically yes the Rafale would have fared much better than a Mig-21 and likely shot down PAF aircraft but then PAF’s own plan would be different too. 

So I’ll repeat, the answer you seek is too simplistic

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## Talon

Catalystic said:


> Can our pilot in a jf-17 or f-16 or j10 shootdown/defeat an indian operated Rafaele in a dogfight??
> 
> Yes or No?


Looks like someone watched Top Gun Maverick very recently

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## Trailer23

Hodor said:


> Looks like someone watched Top Gun Maverick very recently


I did - twice  .

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## SQ8

Catalystic said:


> Never watched it….
> 
> Just was curious about it as any ordinary bloody civilian….
> 
> As usual no answers..a retired taxi driver from paf said its was an f16 that shot down the indian plane and not the jf17
> 
> Ab bolain ke qspe yaqeen keray aur na keray, hamesha qaum ko mamu he banaya…


Basically you are for useless critique than actually understanding the subject - Pakistani Jihallat aur ghatiya tarbiat ka awal darjay ka muzahira ke baat ka bhatangar bana ke bloody civilian ki chawal mari.. wohi bhi sab civillians ko aur phir apni qaum ki musalal becharigi ko rona kyun zahir hai aap ne tu churian pehni howi hain aur aik mughal badshah ke khansame ke zaati khwaja sirah ki auqat se ziada soch ho nahin sakti.

Aqal ka istemaal karna tu pakistanion ke anokhe deen ke khilaf hai tu jaldi se char bewakofi ke dialogue jaise ke koi movie chal rahi hai mar ke nikal diye. Meri bala se, aap iss thread se dafa hojaye aur taxi drivers ke saath hi yarian aur bakwas karne tak apne aap ko mehdood rakhiye.

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## MIRauf

Catalystic said:


> Can our pilot in a jf-17 or f-16 or j10 shootdown/defeat an indian operated Rafaele in a dogfight??
> 
> Yes or No?


If you are a betting man, odd would favor Rafale on paper against the FC-1 / JF-17 specially Block I/II. Throw in other support aircraft that provide situational awareness AWACS, EW, etc and then the things get interesting just as happened during the Feb 27.

PS: Not enough is known about Block III or J-10C to draw any conclusions.

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## Windjammer



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## m52k85

SQ8 said:


> Which pilot? Where? What scenario?
> Its air combat - and you are simplifying it to a game of ludo.. even that requires probability


Average squadron pilot from both sides. In a neutral merge, who wins next more times than the other?


----------



## SQ8

m52k85 said:


> Average squadron pilot from both sides. In a neutral merge, who wins next more times than the other?


More often than not it would be the Rafale depending upon how the fight plays out.
Lets say the F-16 pilot fights to his strength and the Rafale to his.. then the ratio may be 1.2:1 in favor of the Rafale.

But that is a very poor representation - almost like saying we have a calculated certain probability based on 500 factors with 1000! Combinations that x will happen.
No one has done that.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Windjammer

AGGRESSORS.

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## JamD

m52k85 said:


> Average squadron pilot from both sides. In a neutral merge, who wins next more times than the other?





SQ8 said:


> More often than not it would be the Rafale depending upon how the fight plays out.
> Lets say the F-16 pilot fights to his strength and the Rafale to his.. then the ratio may be 1.2:1 in favor of the Rafale.
> 
> But that is a very poor representation - almost like saying we have a calculated certain probability based on 500 factors with 1000! Combinations that x will happen.
> No one has done that.


At the risk of being an annoying nerd, let me say something. Using "traditional" ideas of probability is problematic for rare events such as 1v1 air combat. There's a whole theory of rare-event probabilistics used by insurance companies for modeling this kind of thing. The bottom line is that it's hard to put a number on it, and even if you did put the correct number on it, the other person who isn't well-versed with rare-event probabilistics will misinterpret the number. And I'm assuming you can even put a number on it in the first place.




__





Statistical estimation for Large Numbers of Rare Events






www.ling.upenn.edu





The best we can do is put a gut-feeling gun-to-the-head number, which is what SQ8 has done. Bottom line - there is no objective answer.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

JamD said:


> At the risk of being an annoying nerd, let me say something. Using "traditional" ideas of probability is problematic for rare events such as 1v1 air combat. There's a whole theory of rare-event probabilistics used by insurance companies for modeling this kind of thing. The bottom line is that it's hard to put a number on it, and even if you did put the correct number on it, the other person who isn't well-versed with rare-event probabilistics will misinterpret the number. And I'm assuming you can even put a number on it in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Statistical estimation for Large Numbers of Rare Events
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ling.upenn.edu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The best we can do is put a gut-feeling gun-to-the-head number, which is what SQ8 has done. Bottom line - there is no objective answer.


Basically, there are points in the chain you can't control and you may as well pray for a favourable scenario (after doing everything you can realistically do on your end given your resources, training, etc).

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Image taken before a Carnage. Only the real ones know about the Viper x Typhoon bloodbath at Anatolian Eagle.
Lumber Vun Pilots.

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## MastanKhan

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Image taken before a Carnage. Only the real ones know about the Viper x Typhoon bloodbath at Anatolian Eagle.
> Lumber Vun Pilots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 857860



Hi,

Please expand on that a little bit.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAF F-16B which was flown by Wing Commander Hasan Siddiqui when he shot down the SU-30MKI of Indian Air Force. The kill marking a visible on the aircraft ...

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## SQ8

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Image taken before a Carnage. Only the real ones know about the Viper x Typhoon bloodbath at Anatolian Eagle.
> Lumber Vun Pilots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 857860


Yes - I heard PAF didn’t do so well in BVR

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## Olympus81

Any good read regarding the outcome of the exercise?


----------



## GriffinsRule

SQ8 said:


> Yes - I heard PAF didn’t do so well in BVR


If memory serves me right, weren't those pre-MLU F-16s and early tranche Typhoons? Also pilot proficiency would matter a lot of dog fights (as in the number of hours) so I wouldn't draw many conclusions from an exercise result.


----------



## ghazi52

,.,.,.
Pakistan Air Force F-16B EMLU-III serial no. 84606 & F-16A EMLU-III serial no. 84719 from No. 11 Squadron Arrows..

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## SQ8

GriffinsRule said:


> If memory serves me right, weren't those pre-MLU F-16s and early tranche Typhoons? Also pilot proficiency would matter a lot of dog fights (as in the number of hours) so I wouldn't draw many *conclusions from an exercise result.*


That is the idea of the exercise - it identifies your strengths and weaknesses to get you to level up.

A lot of it also came from not having forcewide exposure to the latest BVR tactics and proficiency. That has changed considerably now where most of the fighter force thinks BVR before post merge tactics

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## Talon



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## Signalian

Hodor said:


> View attachment 858584


All Russian made ?


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## Imran Khan

Signalian said:


> All Russian made ?


israeli too searcher 2 is there

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## Windjammer



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

vs

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

.,.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## nomi007




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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A beautiful PAF Bird....

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## ghazi52

,.,.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

MR MUSCLE

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Windjammer

Pakistani and Turkish Vipers formation flying during AE-2022.

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## Trailer23

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1547325003309391876​Yeah I know - I know, we can't get our hands on these. But it doesn't cost money to window shop, huh.

@Hodor @araz @airomerix @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @SQ8 @Windjammer @AeroEngineer @GriffinsRule @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I S I @iLION12345_1 @Path-Finder @PanzerKiel @Stealth @TheSnakeEatingMarkhur @Yasser76 @Zarvan @ziaulislam

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## Raider 21

Trailer23 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1547325003309391876​Yeah I know - I know, we can't get our hands on these. But it doesn't cost money to window shop, huh.
> 
> @Hodor @araz @airomerix @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @SQ8 @Windjammer @AeroEngineer @GriffinsRule @HRK @Hakikat ve Hikmet @I S I @iLION12345_1 @Path-Finder @PanzerKiel @Stealth @TheSnakeEatingMarkhur @Yasser76 @Zarvan @ziaulislam


A few PAF engineering officers were there not too long ago. They were window shopping.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A PAF Pilot flew an upgraded F-16C Block 50 of the 191st Turkish Air Force.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Band of brothers.

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## Wesen Hunter

Do Pakistani F-16s have Sniper pods?


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## SQ8

Wesen Hunter said:


> Do Pakistani F-16s have Sniper pods?


Yes

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## White privilege

SQ8 said:


> Yes


Should we get Legion pods??


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## SQ8

White privilege said:


> Should we get Legion pods??


wont be worth it - rather have that capability in newer assets

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## m52k85

SQ8 said:


> wont be worth it - rather have that capability in newer assets


Do we have any snipets/ interviews/ quotes out from the latest anatolia? Especially regarding the PAF Arrows up against Eurofighters?

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Windjammer



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## Ali_Baba

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 862084



That is a DCS picture ...


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Ali_Baba said:


> That is a DCS picture ...


Still pretty, I have deleted it.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## Gripen9

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 862100


Not ours. We do not have AGM88s in our inventory.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Signalian



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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Raider 21

Not a PAF Viper, yet good footage

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## Windjammer

PAF & USAF ground crew arming an F-16 during joint exercise in Pakistan.

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## MastanKhan

8. Misparked F-16 Jet​*Year: *2018*
Location*: Belgium
*Company: *Belgian Air Force
*Estimated Damage Value*: $15-$18 million*
We’ve all made mistakes while doing our jobs, but have you ever accidentally fired a cannon and destroyed a $15 million dollar fighter jet? If not, one maintenance worker in Belgium might just have you beat. The incident happened in 2018 at the Florennes Air Force Base. 

Advertisement



Misparked F-16 Jet @Dankyoupro / Imgur.com

Advertisement
While the details of what happened weren’t made immediately clear, the worker somehow managed to accidentally shoot a Vulcan cannon at a fully-fueled General Dynamics’ F-16, causing it to explode. Thankfully there were no fatalities, but two technicians suffered head injuries as a result of this extremely careless (and costly) boo-boo. 
The maintenance was being carried out on a nearby F-16AM fighter jet when the cannon was accidentally fired, causing the catastrophic damage. Another nearby plane was also injured in the process, but was able to be repaired. Needless to say, no employee of the month awards were handed out to those involved.

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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A seeker that seeks the trouble seeker ...

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Raider 21



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## GriffinsRule

Raider 21 said:


>


Other videos on this channel are really great and informative as well


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## White privilege

GriffinsRule said:


> Other videos on this channel are really great and informative as well


Would also love to hear about the _unofficial exploits _of PAF someday.😁


----------



## ghazi52

.,.,
March 21, 2022

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## ghazi52

.
A Pakistani F-16 on alert inside a Hardened Aircraft Shelter (HAS) unit at an operational airbase.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Boss with F16

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## Windjammer

We will Rock You.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Readerdefence

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> View attachment 870123


Hi whose airforce is this f16 surely not PAF looks like usaf 
any info 
thank you


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## Metal 0-1

Readerdefence said:


> Hi whose airforce is this f16 surely not PAF looks like usaf
> any info
> thank you


Usaf doesn't use CFTs, they don't use blk 50/52s at all and neither that's PAF bird.

Some European

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## Raider 21

Readerdefence said:


> Hi whose airforce is this f16 surely not PAF looks like usaf
> any info
> thank you











F-21


Meet the F-21. Specifically configured for the Indian Air Force, the F-21 provides unmatched ‘Make in India’ opportunities and strengthens India’s path to an advanced airpower future.




www.lockheedmartin.com




The F-21 that was being marketed for the Indian Air Force

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE




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## Signalian

"Angry Ktten"EW

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## Signalian



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Strike & Assault as brief as swift, they say one plan to intrude & five plans for exit ...

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## ghazi52

.,.
"Strapping up for action packed day in an F-16 fighting falcon,with heat wave temps adding to the stress on body and mind"








Most crew chiefs follows fighter pilots up the ladder & connect the shoulder straps to their harness & plug in their G-suit before shaking the hands & removing the ladder. The survival section takes care of the G-Suits, harness, life preserver, helmet (JHMCS), oxygen mask even parachutes and ejection seats. Everything they touch & inspect is life saving equipment.
After that, there's is only a seat kit, lap belt & comm cord. From there, the crew chief plugs into the aircraft's intercom system & the fighter pilot talks through the start-up sequence ...

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## ghazi52

.,.
*ACE of PAF*​
"After an action packad day at office, the viper and operator coming back to the flight line. Hand one the panel case thanks to wx, hard work and good vibes"
Notice the IFF antennas on-top of the nose, used as part of the identification Friend-&-Foe system on the F-16. 
The system provides the signal allowing combat aircrafts on the same side to identify each other as friendly.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## ghazi52

,.,.
"Words from young OCU Trainee at one of PAF's Viper squadron"





Flying the powerful F-16 Fighting Falcon is an amazing feeling, its like an extension of one's body. Its almost indescribable but its the ultimate freedom. I found an immense amount of pleasure in flying one of the most respected and feared fighter aircraft.

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## fatman17

Viper Driver Flying Hours​

 Sqn.Ldr. Tehseen _"Slayer"_ Tariq , TT​Sierra Hotel main menu | Submit your flying hours

Viper Driver​




Name*Sqn.Ldr. Tehseen "Slayer" Tariq*Country

Unit*29th squadron "Combat Commanders School"*Flying F-16sfrom 2016 until 2022Viper Hours*1000*DoB 1986Memorable F-16 Aircraft​

*F-16 #84718* [Detailed history of this F-16]
F-16 Flying Hours​


​1,000 Hours#2491 on the 1K list​Unit​*



29th squadron "Combat Commanders School"*[Unit History]​Date*26 January 2022*Comment
Flying Hours on other aircraft​


Mig 21 FishbedHours​*1000*

Visitor Comments​

Leave a comment​

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Windjammer



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## Jungibaaz

Signalian said:


> "Angry Ktten"EW


Would it be the first known cognitive EW pod?


----------



## Signalian

Jungibaaz said:


> Would it be the first known cognitive EW pod?


I think so, as lately I haven't come across any other regarding F-16. If you know any let me know. These are interesting pods.

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## ghazi52

.,..

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## syed_yusuf

If possible Pakistan should add two squadrons of used blk52 f16 ....

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## GriffinsRule

syed_yusuf said:


> If possible Pakistan should add two squadrons of used blk52 f16 ....


Dude where will the B-52s come from? As in what country, as they are not in production.


----------



## syed_yusuf

GriffinsRule said:


> Dude where will the B-52s come from? As in what country, as they are not in production.


Don't know , I just think if the opportunity is right paf should exercise it . Blk52 is a good airframe design and when coupled with updated avionics it will make a difference

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## GriffinsRule

syed_yusuf said:


> Don't know , I just think if the opportunity is right paf should exercise it . Blk52 is a good airframe design and when coupled with updated avionics it will make a difference


There wont be any such opportunities as none of them are available nor in production. I wouldnt even hold my breath for used F-16A/Bs

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## Abid123

syed_yusuf said:


> If possible Pakistan should add two squadrons of used blk52 f16 ....


Forget F-16. JF block 3 and J-10C is the way forward.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAF F-16A ADF Fighting Falcon

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## Sifar zero

So the US has authorized a 450 Million USD deal to update our F 16's.

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## Sayfullah

GriffinsRule said:


> There wont be any such opportunities as none of them are available nor in production. I wouldnt even hold my breath for used F-16A/Bs


What about Iraqi blk 52’s? Iraqis seem to want Rafales so maybe we can buy their blk 52.


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Sayfullah said:


> What about Iraqi blk 52’s? Iraqis seem to want Rafales so maybe we can buy their blk 52.


3rd-party transfers still require U.S. approval.

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## Sayfullah

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> 3rd-party transfers still require U.S. approval.


Maybe usa will allow since army looks to be on good terms with usa?


----------



## Raja Porus

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567588613285625858

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## kursed

Pakistan – F-16 Case for Sustainment | Defense Security Cooperation Agency







www.dsca.mil





Basically system sustainment and software updates for onboard systems and subsystems. Publications and Manuals being the most important part of it.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Sayfullah said:


> Maybe usa will allow since army looks to be on good terms with usa?


tbh I don't think so. 

Let's say, for example, the U.S. likes our military leadership, okay, but does that necessarily translate into furthering our national interests? Washington could still get their preferred individuals, but it doesn't mean they have to improve our conventional warfighting capabilities.

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## kursed

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh I don't think so.
> 
> Let's say, for example, the U.S. likes our military leadership, okay, but does that necessarily translate into furthering our national interests? Washington could still get their preferred individuals, but it doesn't mean they have to improve our conventional warfighting capabilities.


No new capability is coming to Pakistan. It's in continuation of a similar sales made about 2 years or so ago, when F-16 sustainment program was signed.

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## PakFactor

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> tbh I don't think so.
> 
> Let's say, for example, the U.S. likes our military leadership, okay, but does that necessarily translate into furthering our national interests? Washington could still get their preferred individuals, but it doesn't mean they have to improve our conventional warfighting capabilities.



So basically no benefit in the long run; this is the type of news I would toss in the trash bin.


----------



## Falcon26

kursed said:


> Pakistan – F-16 Case for Sustainment | Defense Security Cooperation Agency
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dsca.mil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Basically system sustainment and software updates for onboard systems and subsystems. Publications and Manuals being the most important part of it.
> 
> View attachment 876971



Doesn’t the structural integrity program entail improvements on the body?


----------



## kursed

Falcon26 said:


> Doesn’t the structural integrity program entail improvements on the body?


Yep, probably a STAR type program for non-MLU type birds in the lineup. But it does not change anything in PAF's capacity.

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## Falcon26

kursed said:


> Yep, probably a STAR type program for non-MLU type birds in the lineup. But it does not change anything in PAF's capacity.



I think the PAF will prefer adding few more years of life on old F-16s over acquiring new capabilities, so this notification is a welcome news for the PAF.

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## mingle

Falcon26 said:


> I think the PAF will prefer adding few more years of life on old F-16s over acquiring new capabilities, so this notification is a welcome news for the PAF.


Same happened during Trump time but meantime adding some yrs into vipers PAF should explore theior replacement especially older blks

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## fatman17

True or False?

The US State Department has approved the potential sale of F-16 aircraft sustainment and related equipment to Pakistan in a deal valued at up to $450 million, the Pentagon said




. The principal contractor will be Lockheed Martin Corp. The Government of Pakistan has requested to consolidate prior F-16 sustainment and support cases to support the Pakistan Air Force F-16 fleet by reducing duplicate case activities and adding additional continued support elements. I


----------



## Sinnerman108

fatman17 said:


> True or False?



Oh how things change, once they have an impotent government installed. 


https://m.tribuneindia.com/news/wor...leet-sustainment-programme-to-pakistan-429694

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## fatman17

Sinnerman108 said:


> Oh how things change, once they have an impotent government installed.
> 
> 
> https://m.tribuneindia.com/news/wor...leet-sustainment-programme-to-pakistan-429694


Confirms that the drone used ALOC of Pakistan 🇵🇰 to strike in Afghanistan.


----------



## Path-Finder

the curse called f16.

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## ziaulislam

kursed said:


> Yep, probably a STAR type program for non-MLU type birds in the lineup. But it does not change anything in PAF's capacity.


There were rumours that uncle sam has allowed pakistan to procure used c130s and f16 earlier this yr when IK left.. So we are seeing that quietly but surely materialize

I bet we will get some f16 a/b with falcon kits
500m isnt just for 13 jordanian aircarfts or already MLUed f16s


----------



## kursed

ziaulislam said:


> There were rumours that uncle sam has allowed pakistan to procure used c130s and f16 earlier this yr when IK left.. So we are seeing that quietly but surely materialize
> 
> I bet we will get some f16 a/b with falcon kits
> 500m isnt just for 13 jordanian aircarfts or already MLUed f16s


No new system deal has been signed, the C-130 upgrade deal was completed during PTI tenure and the Belgium buy was also looked at, verified and cleared during PTI tenure. The notification is fairly clear on what it is meant for.

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## Raider 21

Path-Finder said:


> the curse called f16.


The Viper "curse" that has been successful over and over, especially at keeping the eastern neighbour's mediocre air force and naval air arm at bay.

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## Metal 0-1

Raja Porus said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567588613285625858

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## Vapnope

Maybe i am reading too much into it but $450 million seems high for just the sustainment program.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## Raja Porus

That's what I thought.


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Sinnerman108

fatman17 said:


> Confirms that the drone used ALOC of Pakistan 🇵🇰 to strike in Afghanistan.



Well 
Qibla, going by that rational 
a lot of other things are also confirmed ... 
you know ... about people ... and stuff. 

and makes me think, how they hell did they get to 3 and 4 star level.

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

IK should have heard his military leadership to what they were saying. Being Pakistan---you can't have a 3 front war.

IK should have talked less and listened more.

Russia was a losing preposition from the gitgo.

He should have at least left the option of Israel open. Turkey has recognized israel---so there is nothing left for Pakistan to do.

Even Taliban want to recognize it.

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

kursed said:


> No new system deal has been signed, the C-130 upgrade deal was completed during PTI tenure and the Belgium buy was also looked at, verified and cleared during PTI tenure. The notification is fairly clear on what it is meant for.


The statement says that this specific F-16 program is also a consolidation of upcoming programs. So, instead of seeing a bunch of $50-75 M releases, the PAF and Pentagon put them all into one program. I think this will likely cover the next 5-7 years.

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## MastanKhan

ziaulislam said:


> *There were rumours that uncle sam has allowed pakistan to procure used c130s and f16 earlier this yr when IK left.. So we are seeing that quietly but surely materialize*
> 
> I bet we will get some f16 a/b with falcon kits
> 500m isnt just for 13 jordanian aircarfts or already MLUed f16s


Hi,

Really---. Sir, this is not a car dealership where you can walk in and drive out with the car.

These deals take a year or 2 in the making.

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## Abdul Rehman Majeed

Vapnope said:


> Maybe i am reading too much into it but $450 million seems high for just the sustainment program.



A lot of goodies are coming.

Avionics will be comparable to F-35.

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2


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## Yasser76

No big deal, just usual sustainment and support you would expect for a fleet our size, it does however make a possible "V" buy more likely in the future of we think a $0.5Billion investment in the fleet is worth it. Imagine how many JF-17s or J-20Cs that could buy....


----------



## Basel

Abdul Rehman Majeed said:


> A lot of goodies are coming.
> 
> Avionics will be comparable to F-35.



Source please as this is big statement.
Also that means more capable bird then F-16V which seems not possible.


----------



## MastanKhan

Hi,

I told you guys years ago---.

The J-10CP has done the magic---. Some will not accept but the J10-CP is an extremely potent 4.5 gen aircraft.

Now the Paf has gone out of the hands of the US---. The americans are going to fight tooth and nail to get them back.

American divorces are ruthless and brutal for both the sides---. There is no winner in the end.

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## MIRauf

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> ......
> 
> American divorces are ruthless and brutal for both the sides---. There is no winner in the end.


"The War of the Roses"

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## imadul

RCO price quiet lucrative for armed forces.
$450 million for f-16 fleet suppprt, no new equipment though. 
Similarly LHTEC T800 turboshaft for T129 ATAK will be unembargoed. 

Training in US shall resume.
Army shall be happy. 
All is well.


----------



## Path-Finder

Raider 21 said:


> The Viper "curse" that has been successful over and over, especially at keeping the eastern neighbour's mediocre air force and naval air arm at bay.


and at the cost of global humiliation!

Reactions: Angry Angry:
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## Abdul Rehman Majeed

Basel said:


> Source please as this is big statement.
> Also that means more capable bird then F-16V which seems not possible.



F-16V is no longer the most capable F-16.

We are getting the following major upgrades as part of the package

1) Engine upgrades upto 12000 hours
2) An AESA radar that can scan in a 360-degree sphere - horizontal, vertical and diagonal vectors to track up to 20-targets at any time
3) Infrared Search and Track (IRST) that can track multiple targets at once and operate in an electromagnetic warfare environment

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## ziaulislam

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Really---. Sir, this is not a car dealership where you can walk in and drive out with the car.
> 
> These deals take a year or 2 in the making.


I'm just saying I said these are coming earlier this yr ..

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## Signalian

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> The statement says that this specific F-16 program is also a consolidation of upcoming programs. So, instead of seeing a bunch of $50-75 M releases, the PAF and Pentagon put them all into one program. I think this will likely cover the next 5-7 years.


The F-16 sustainment program report mentions - ongoing counter-terrorism efforts and in preparation for future contingency operations.

What does that mean to you ?


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Signalian said:


> The F-16 sustainment program report mentions - ongoing counter-terrorism efforts and in preparation for future contingency operations.
> 
> What does that mean to you ?


It's probably just a statement the State Department and DoD put in to help ensure the deal gets through Congress. They're saying, "hey, we need to keep these F-16s serviceable or else Pakistan will lose the ability to support COIN/CT."

That said, I do think the PAF will try getting the F-16V upgrade for the 18 Block-52+. Not only are these newer airframes, but LM has a SLEP on the market that can extend the lives of these aircraft to 13-14,000 hours. Even if the PAF can't add more new F-16s, upgrading the 18 Block-52+ would at least give us a terrific DACT asset to train our JF-17 and J-10CE pilots.

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## Sinnerman108

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> It's probably just a statement the State Department and DoD put in to help ensure the deal gets through Congress. They're saying, "hey, we need to keep these F-16s serviceable or else Pakistan will lose the ability to support COIN/CT."
> 
> That said, I do think the PAF will try getting the F-16V upgrade for the 18 Block-52+. Not only are these newer airframes, but LM has a SLEP on the market that can extend the lives of these aircraft to 13-14,000 hours. Even if the PAF can't add more new F-16s, upgrading the 18 Block-52+ would at least give us a terrific DACT asset to train our JF-17 and J-10CE pilots.



Here is the actual statement, and reading between the lines,
it seems this program is a means to ensure US retains it's leverage and is capable 
of denying the foothold Russia sought, or China is building.

****************************************************************

The USD 450 million foreign military sale to Pakistan participation in F-16 Aircraft Structural Integrity Programme, electronic combat international security assistance programme, international engine management programme, engine component improvement programme, and other technical coordination groups; aircraft and engine hardware and software modifications and support and aircraft and engine spare repair/return parts.
*
The Pentagon said this proposed sale will support the foreign policy and national security objectives of the United States by allowing Pakistan to retain interoperability with US and partner forces in ongoing counterterrorism efforts and in preparation for future contingency operations.
*
_*“The proposed sale will continue the sustainment of Pakistan's F-16 fleet, which greatly improves Pakistan's ability to support counterterrorism operations through its robust air-to-ground capability. Pakistan will have no difficulty absorbing these articles and services into its armed forces,” it said.*_

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## Vapnope

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> That said, I do think the PAF will try getting the F-16V upgrade for the 18 Block-52+.


There you said it 😝


----------



## Basel

Abdul Rehman Majeed said:


> F-16V is no longer the most capable F-16.
> 
> We are getting the following major upgrades as part of the package
> 
> 1) Engine upgrades upto 12000 hours
> 2) An AESA radar that can scan in a 360-degree sphere - horizontal, vertical and diagonal vectors to track up to 20-targets at any time
> 3) Infrared Search and Track (IRST) that can track multiple targets at once and operate in an electromagnetic warfare environment



Which radar on a fighter have 360 degree coverage??

I don't think that kind of upgrade US will offer Pakistan.

If your statement is true then we should ask ourselves a question, what we have sold to US now??


----------



## Metal 0-1

Basel said:


> Source please as this is big statement.
> Also that means more capable bird then F-16V which seems not possible.

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## DrWatson775

Abdul Rehman Majeed said:


> F-16V is no longer the most capable F-16.
> 
> We are getting the following major upgrades as part of the package
> 
> 1) Engine upgrades upto 12000 hours
> 2) An AESA radar that can scan in a 360-degree sphere - horizontal, vertical and diagonal vectors to track up to 20-targets at any time
> 3) Infrared Search and Track (IRST) that can track multiple targets at once and operate in an electromagnetic warfare environment



Is this 360 degree radar fixed on top of the F16 fuselage like an AWACS ? 😀

Reactions: Haha Haha:
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## Abdul Rehman Majeed

Basel said:


> Which radar on a fighter have 360 degree coverage??
> 
> I don't think that kind of upgrade US will offer Pakistan.
> 
> If your statement is true then we should ask ourselves a question, what we have sold to US now??





Metal 0-1 said:


> View attachment 877392





DrWatson775 said:


> Is this 360 degree radar fixed on top of the F16 fuselage like an AWACS ? 😀




Air Force orders more advanced F-16 jet fighter SABR AESA radar avionics systems from Northrop Grumman​July 26, 2022
APG-83 AESA fire-control scalable agile-beam radar (SABR) integrates with the F-16’s structural, power, and cooling without aircraft modification.
John Keller

https://www.militaryaerospace.com/print/content/14280212
https://defence.pk/pdf/javascript:void(0)
https://defence.pk/pdf/javascript:void(0)
https://defence.pk/pdf/javascript:void(0)
https://defence.pk/pdf/javascript:void(0)






*WRIGHT-PATTERSON AFB, Ohio –* U.S. Air Force aerial warfare experts are ordering additional modern active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar for F-16 jet fighter aircraft under terms of an $88.2 million order announced Friday.
Officials of the Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Fighter Bomber Directorate, F-16 Division, at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, are asking the Northrop Grumman Corp. Mission Systems segment in Linthicum Heights, Md., for 31 production radars and spare parts.
The APG-83 AESA fire-control scalable agile-beam radar (SABR) integrates within the F-16’s structural, power, and cooling constraints without Group A aircraft modification, Northrop Grumman officials say. The company leverages technology developed for the APG-77 and APG-81 radar systems on the U.S. F-22 and F-35 combat aircraft.
In a 2013 competition, Lockheed Martin Corp., the F-16 manufacturer, selected the APG-83 as the AESA radar avionics for the F-16 modernization and update programs of the U.S. Air Force and Taiwan air force.

*Related: Air Force orders eight new F-15EX jet fighter aircraft with advanced avionics, navigation systems, and radar*
The bandwidth, speed, and agility of AESA radars enable legacy fighter aircraft like the F-16 to detect, track, and identify many targets quickly and at long ranges, and to operate in hostile electronic warfare (EW) environments.
Northrop Grumman is building APG-83 radar systems for global F-16 upgrades and new aircraft production, as well as for the U.S. Air National Guard. Northrop Grumman also has installed a production APG-83 SABR on a U.S. Marine Corps F/A-18C Hornet jet fighter-bomber, company officials say.
On this order Northrop Grumman will do the work in Linthicum Heights, Md., and should be finished by July 2025. For more information contact Northrop Grumman Mission Systems online at www.northropgrumman.com, or the Air Force Life Cycle Management Center at www.aflcmc.af.mil.



StackPath


----------



## Basel

Abdul Rehman Majeed said:


> Air Force orders more advanced F-16 jet fighter SABR AESA radar avionics systems from Northrop Grumman​July 26, 2022
> APG-83 AESA fire-control scalable agile-beam radar (SABR) integrates with the F-16’s structural, power, and cooling without aircraft modification.
> John Keller
> 
> https://www.militaryaerospace.com/print/content/14280212
> https://defence.pk/pdf/javascript:void(0)
> https://defence.pk/pdf/javascript:void(0)
> https://defence.pk/pdf/javascript:void(0)
> https://defence.pk/pdf/javascript:void(0)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *WRIGHT-PATTERSON AFB, Ohio –* U.S. Air Force aerial warfare experts are ordering additional modern active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar for F-16 jet fighter aircraft under terms of an $88.2 million order announced Friday.
> Officials of the Air Force Life Cycle Management Center, Fighter Bomber Directorate, F-16 Division, at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, are asking the Northrop Grumman Corp. Mission Systems segment in Linthicum Heights, Md., for 31 production radars and spare parts.
> The APG-83 AESA fire-control scalable agile-beam radar (SABR) integrates within the F-16’s structural, power, and cooling constraints without Group A aircraft modification, Northrop Grumman officials say. The company leverages technology developed for the APG-77 and APG-81 radar systems on the U.S. F-22 and F-35 combat aircraft.
> In a 2013 competition, Lockheed Martin Corp., the F-16 manufacturer, selected the APG-83 as the AESA radar avionics for the F-16 modernization and update programs of the U.S. Air Force and Taiwan air force.
> 
> *Related: Air Force orders eight new F-15EX jet fighter aircraft with advanced avionics, navigation systems, and radar*
> The bandwidth, speed, and agility of AESA radars enable legacy fighter aircraft like the F-16 to detect, track, and identify many targets quickly and at long ranges, and to operate in hostile electronic warfare (EW) environments.
> Northrop Grumman is building APG-83 radar systems for global F-16 upgrades and new aircraft production, as well as for the U.S. Air National Guard. Northrop Grumman also has installed a production APG-83 SABR on a U.S. Marine Corps F/A-18C Hornet jet fighter-bomber, company officials say.
> On this order Northrop Grumman will do the work in Linthicum Heights, Md., and should be finished by July 2025. For more information contact Northrop Grumman Mission Systems online at www.northropgrumman.com, or the Air Force Life Cycle Management Center at www.aflcmc.af.mil.
> 
> 
> 
> StackPath



Where it says that equipment is for Pakistan and radar have 360 degree coverage?? 

Only AWACS have 360 degree coverage no Fighter jet currently have that kind of radar.

Reactions: Like Like:
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## MastanKhan

MIRauf said:


> "The War of the Roses"


Hi,

Yessir---"death do us part".


----------



## Abdul Rehman Majeed

Basel said:


> Only AWACS have 360 degree coverage no Fighter jet currently have that kind of radar.

















F-16s Fight Into 2040 with F-35 AESA Radar and Modernized Weapons


By Kris Osborn - President & Editor-In-Chief, Warrior Maven (Washington, D.C.) The Air Force is giving its 1970s-era F-16 fighter F-35 technology as part of a




warriormaven.com





F-16s Fight Into 2040 with F-35 AESA Radar and Modernized Weapons
Credit the Service Life Extension Program which modernized F-16s

KRIS OSBORN, WARRIOR MAVEN
AUG 11, 2021
Lockheed Martin

HOME
U.S. AIR FORCE NEWS

_*By Kris Osborn - President & Editor-In-Chief, Warrior Maven*_
(Washington, D.C.) The Air Force is giving its 1970s-era F-16 fighter F-35 technology as part of a massive fleet-wide overhaul intended to improve targeting, attack precision and computer systems -- to extend the fighter’s combat life all the way into the 2040s.
It might be tough to imagine that today’s Air Force F-16 dates back as far as the 1970s, a circumstance which might lead some to wonder how the combat aircraft has sustained its combat relevance and performance capacity into the dynamic threat environment of the 2020s.
F-16 Service Life Extension Program​The answer is actually quite extensive and goes back many years to the inception and preservation of an F-16 Service Life Extension Program which upgraded the upper wing skin and fittings, adjusted the bulkhead and canopy and gave the aircraft an F-35 Active Electronically Scanned Radar (AESA). 





Lockheed Martin F-16
Lockheed Martin

Active Electronically Scanned Radar (AESA)​With AESA, the F-16 incorporated an entirely new ability to find, detect and track enemy threats at much greater ranges. The aim of the SLEP was to extend the flight time of F-16s from roughly six-to-seven thousand flight hours to 8,000 or more flight hours. On top of that, the service’s confidence in the upgrades have led to plan to have the F-16 fly all the way out to 12,000 hours.
The AESA radar, which Lockheed developers say can track up to 20-targets at one time, is a massive upgrade beyond the F-16s previous mechanically-scanned radar. By virtue of its ability to track multiple targets, the AESA radar can scan in a 360-degree sphere to include horizontal, vertical and diagonal vectors.

Modernized Cockpit Avionics​Not surprisingly, the F-16 has also in recent years received new cockpit avionics to include moving map displays, video in the cockpit. digital graphics screens and new target tracking systems. 

On-Board Automation​Upgraded F-16s also uses a high degree of increased on-board automation to free up pilot focus and workload. By automatically performing a range of important procedural functions independently, a pilot is then freed up to focus more intently on other mission critical tasks.
Scroll to Continue
Recommended for You​



New Nuclear Armed Columbia-Class Submarines Will Fire Stealthy Mk 48 Torpedoes​
BY KRIS OSBORN, WARRIOR MAVENJUL 4, 2022




Want Democracy? Trying Intentionally Including Future Generations​
BY CARTER DILLARDJUN 1, 2022




The Mar-a-Lago Raid is Trump's Al Capone Moment​
BY BILL BLUMAUG 17, 2022
F-16v​Alongside the Air Force SLEP, Lockheed Martin has also been building a new F-16v variant, which continues to inspire allied interest around the globe. The F-16v also uses new computers and software as well as a high-definition cockpit display. The “v” model also adds a new data bus, electronic warfare suite, missile warning sensor and helmet mounted cueing system.





The core of the F-16V configuration is an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, a modern commercial off-the-shelf (COTS)-based avionics subsystem, a large-format, high-resolution display; and a high-volume, high-speed data bus.
Lockheed Martin
This upgraded F-16v technical foundation provided the technical starting point for Lockheed’s next-generation F-16 specifically built for India called the F-21. 
F-21 with IRST Technology​Not only does the F-21 incorporate AESA, but the jet also integrates a high-tech, next-generation targeting system called Infrared Search and Track (IRST) technology. IRST, which is used extensively in F/A-18 Super Hornets, is a passive, long-range sensor that searches for and detects infrared emissions. 






Lockheed Martin, F-21
Lockheed Martin
Much like the AESA, the IRST can track multiple targets at once and operate in an electromagnetic warfare environment. As a passive, long-range sensor able to provide air-to-air targeting, IRST introduces new combat variables for the F-16.
In effect, while there are ultimately limits to how much an older aircraft can be upgraded, today’s F-16 is almost an entirely different airplane apart from keeping its basic airframe configuration. 
-- *Kris Osborn *is the President of *Warrior Maven* and The *Defense Editor of The National Interest -*-
_Kris Osborn is the defense editor for the _National Interest_. Osborn previously served at the Pentagon as a Highly Qualified Expert with the Office of the Assistant Secretary of the Army—Acquisition, Logistics & Technology. Osborn has also worked as an anchor and on-air military specialist at national TV networks. He has appeared as a guest military expert on Fox News, MSNBC, The Military Channel, and The History Channel. He also has a Master's Degree in Comparative Literature from Columbia University._





Kris Osborn, Warrior Maven President


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Vapnope said:


> There you said it 😝


I need to post it in the Pakistan Navy forum. It'll become true.

Reactions: Haha Haha:
3


----------



## Basel

Abdul Rehman Majeed said:


> View attachment 877473
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16s Fight Into 2040 with F-35 AESA Radar and Modernized Weapons
> 
> 
> By Kris Osborn - President & Editor-In-Chief, Warrior Maven (Washington, D.C.) The Air Force is giving its 1970s-era F-16 fighter F-35 technology as part of a
> 
> 
> 
> 
> warriormaven.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16s Fight Into 2040 with F-35 AESA Radar and Modernized Weapons
> Credit the Service Life Extension Program which modernized F-16s
> 
> KRIS OSBORN, WARRIOR MAVEN
> AUG 11, 2021
> Lockheed Martin
> 
> HOME
> U.S. AIR FORCE NEWS
> 
> _*By Kris Osborn - President & Editor-In-Chief, Warrior Maven*_
> (Washington, D.C.) The Air Force is giving its 1970s-era F-16 fighter F-35 technology as part of a massive fleet-wide overhaul intended to improve targeting, attack precision and computer systems -- to extend the fighter’s combat life all the way into the 2040s.
> It might be tough to imagine that today’s Air Force F-16 dates back as far as the 1970s, a circumstance which might lead some to wonder how the combat aircraft has sustained its combat relevance and performance capacity into the dynamic threat environment of the 2020s.
> F-16 Service Life Extension Program​The answer is actually quite extensive and goes back many years to the inception and preservation of an F-16 Service Life Extension Program which upgraded the upper wing skin and fittings, adjusted the bulkhead and canopy and gave the aircraft an F-35 Active Electronically Scanned Radar (AESA).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lockheed Martin F-16
> Lockheed Martin
> 
> Active Electronically Scanned Radar (AESA)​With AESA, the F-16 incorporated an entirely new ability to find, detect and track enemy threats at much greater ranges. The aim of the SLEP was to extend the flight time of F-16s from roughly six-to-seven thousand flight hours to 8,000 or more flight hours. On top of that, the service’s confidence in the upgrades have led to plan to have the F-16 fly all the way out to 12,000 hours.
> The AESA radar, which Lockheed developers say can track up to 20-targets at one time, is a massive upgrade beyond the F-16s previous mechanically-scanned radar. By virtue of its ability to track multiple targets, the AESA radar can scan in a 360-degree sphere to include horizontal, vertical and diagonal vectors.
> 
> Modernized Cockpit Avionics​Not surprisingly, the F-16 has also in recent years received new cockpit avionics to include moving map displays, video in the cockpit. digital graphics screens and new target tracking systems.
> 
> On-Board Automation​Upgraded F-16s also uses a high degree of increased on-board automation to free up pilot focus and workload. By automatically performing a range of important procedural functions independently, a pilot is then freed up to focus more intently on other mission critical tasks.
> Scroll to Continue
> Recommended for You​
> 
> 
> 
> New Nuclear Armed Columbia-Class Submarines Will Fire Stealthy Mk 48 Torpedoes​
> BY KRIS OSBORN, WARRIOR MAVENJUL 4, 2022
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Want Democracy? Trying Intentionally Including Future Generations​
> BY CARTER DILLARDJUN 1, 2022
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Mar-a-Lago Raid is Trump's Al Capone Moment​
> BY BILL BLUMAUG 17, 2022
> F-16v​Alongside the Air Force SLEP, Lockheed Martin has also been building a new F-16v variant, which continues to inspire allied interest around the globe. The F-16v also uses new computers and software as well as a high-definition cockpit display. The “v” model also adds a new data bus, electronic warfare suite, missile warning sensor and helmet mounted cueing system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The core of the F-16V configuration is an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, a modern commercial off-the-shelf (COTS)-based avionics subsystem, a large-format, high-resolution display; and a high-volume, high-speed data bus.
> Lockheed Martin
> This upgraded F-16v technical foundation provided the technical starting point for Lockheed’s next-generation F-16 specifically built for India called the F-21.
> F-21 with IRST Technology​Not only does the F-21 incorporate AESA, but the jet also integrates a high-tech, next-generation targeting system called Infrared Search and Track (IRST) technology. IRST, which is used extensively in F/A-18 Super Hornets, is a passive, long-range sensor that searches for and detects infrared emissions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lockheed Martin, F-21
> Lockheed Martin
> Much like the AESA, the IRST can track multiple targets at once and operate in an electromagnetic warfare environment. As a passive, long-range sensor able to provide air-to-air targeting, IRST introduces new combat variables for the F-16.
> In effect, while there are ultimately limits to how much an older aircraft can be upgraded, today’s F-16 is almost an entirely different airplane apart from keeping its basic airframe configuration.
> -- *Kris Osborn *is the President of *Warrior Maven* and The *Defense Editor of The National Interest -*-
> _Kris Osborn is the defense editor for the _National Interest_. Osborn previously served at the Pentagon as a Highly Qualified Expert with the Office of the Assistant Secretary of the Army—Acquisition, Logistics & Technology. Osborn has also worked as an anchor and on-air military specialist at national TV networks. He has appeared as a guest military expert on Fox News, MSNBC, The Military Channel, and The History Channel. He also has a Master's Degree in Comparative Literature from Columbia University._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kris Osborn, Warrior Maven President



All talk is about future of F-16 not what currently available in production, also no mention of Pakistan either.


----------



## Sinnerman108

Abdul Rehman Majeed said:


> View attachment 877473
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16s Fight Into 2040 with F-35 AESA Radar and Modernized Weapons
> 
> 
> By Kris Osborn - President & Editor-In-Chief, Warrior Maven (Washington, D.C.) The Air Force is giving its 1970s-era F-16 fighter F-35 technology as part of a
> 
> 
> 
> 
> warriormaven.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> F-16s Fight Into 2040 with F-35 AESA Radar and Modernized Weapons
> Credit the Service Life Extension Program which modernized F-16s
> 
> KRIS OSBORN, WARRIOR MAVEN
> AUG 11, 2021
> Lockheed Martin
> 
> HOME
> U.S. AIR FORCE NEWS
> 
> _*By Kris Osborn - President & Editor-In-Chief, Warrior Maven*_
> (Washington, D.C.) The Air Force is giving its 1970s-era F-16 fighter F-35 technology as part of a massive fleet-wide overhaul intended to improve targeting, attack precision and computer systems -- to extend the fighter’s combat life all the way into the 2040s.
> It might be tough to imagine that today’s Air Force F-16 dates back as far as the 1970s, a circumstance which might lead some to wonder how the combat aircraft has sustained its combat relevance and performance capacity into the dynamic threat environment of the 2020s.
> F-16 Service Life Extension Program​The answer is actually quite extensive and goes back many years to the inception and preservation of an F-16 Service Life Extension Program which upgraded the upper wing skin and fittings, adjusted the bulkhead and canopy and gave the aircraft an F-35 Active Electronically Scanned Radar (AESA).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lockheed Martin F-16
> Lockheed Martin
> 
> Active Electronically Scanned Radar (AESA)​With AESA, the F-16 incorporated an entirely new ability to find, detect and track enemy threats at much greater ranges. The aim of the SLEP was to extend the flight time of F-16s from roughly six-to-seven thousand flight hours to 8,000 or more flight hours. On top of that, the service’s confidence in the upgrades have led to plan to have the F-16 fly all the way out to 12,000 hours.
> The AESA radar, which Lockheed developers say can track up to 20-targets at one time, is a massive upgrade beyond the F-16s previous mechanically-scanned radar. By virtue of its ability to track multiple targets, the AESA radar can scan in a 360-degree sphere to include horizontal, vertical and diagonal vectors.
> 
> Modernized Cockpit Avionics​Not surprisingly, the F-16 has also in recent years received new cockpit avionics to include moving map displays, video in the cockpit. digital graphics screens and new target tracking systems.
> 
> On-Board Automation​Upgraded F-16s also uses a high degree of increased on-board automation to free up pilot focus and workload. By automatically performing a range of important procedural functions independently, a pilot is then freed up to focus more intently on other mission critical tasks.
> Scroll to Continue
> Recommended for You​
> 
> 
> New Nuclear Armed Columbia-Class Submarines Will Fire Stealthy Mk 48 Torpedoes​BY KRIS OSBORN, WARRIOR MAVENJUL 4, 2022
> 
> 
> 
> Want Democracy? Trying Intentionally Including Future Generations​BY CARTER DILLARDJUN 1, 2022
> 
> 
> 
> The Mar-a-Lago Raid is Trump's Al Capone Moment​BY BILL BLUMAUG 17, 2022
> F-16v​Alongside the Air Force SLEP, Lockheed Martin has also been building a new F-16v variant, which continues to inspire allied interest around the globe. The F-16v also uses new computers and software as well as a high-definition cockpit display. The “v” model also adds a new data bus, electronic warfare suite, missile warning sensor and helmet mounted cueing system.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The core of the F-16V configuration is an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, a modern commercial off-the-shelf (COTS)-based avionics subsystem, a large-format, high-resolution display; and a high-volume, high-speed data bus.
> Lockheed Martin
> This upgraded F-16v technical foundation provided the technical starting point for Lockheed’s next-generation F-16 specifically built for India called the F-21.
> F-21 with IRST Technology​Not only does the F-21 incorporate AESA, but the jet also integrates a high-tech, next-generation targeting system called Infrared Search and Track (IRST) technology. IRST, which is used extensively in F/A-18 Super Hornets, is a passive, long-range sensor that searches for and detects infrared emissions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lockheed Martin, F-21
> Lockheed Martin
> Much like the AESA, the IRST can track multiple targets at once and operate in an electromagnetic warfare environment. As a passive, long-range sensor able to provide air-to-air targeting, IRST introduces new combat variables for the F-16.
> In effect, while there are ultimately limits to how much an older aircraft can be upgraded, today’s F-16 is almost an entirely different airplane apart from keeping its basic airframe configuration.
> -- *Kris Osborn *is the President of *Warrior Maven* and The *Defense Editor of The National Interest -*-
> _Kris Osborn is the defense editor for the _National Interest_. Osborn previously served at the Pentagon as a Highly Qualified Expert with the Office of the Assistant Secretary of the Army—Acquisition, Logistics & Technology. Osborn has also worked as an anchor and on-air military specialist at national TV networks. He has appeared as a guest military expert on Fox News, MSNBC, The Military Channel, and The History Channel. He also has a Master's Degree in Comparative Literature from Columbia University._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kris Osborn, Warrior Maven President



Dear 
That is not how radars work, most of all AESA doesn't work that way. 

For a 360 coverage, you would have sensors all over the fuselage and the wings. 
That kills the purpose then and there. 

I believe the proverbial 360 is being used as pilot's situational awareness ; which may be achieved once the aircraft is integrated with other airborne surveillance pieces.


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## Ali_Baba

Abdul Rehman Majeed said:


> F-16V is no longer the most capable F-16.
> 
> We are getting the following major upgrades as part of the package
> 
> 1) Engine upgrades upto 12000 hours
> 2) An AESA radar that can scan in a 360-degree sphere - horizontal, vertical and diagonal vectors to track up to 20-targets at any time
> 3) Infrared Search and Track (IRST) that can track multiple targets at once and operate in an electromagnetic warfare environment



No - the size of this deal is too "small" to have an AESA radar as part of the deal. This deal is about keeping the fleet flying - but no real capability increase. It is also quite expensive - for the size of this deal, Pakistan could procure a squadron of JF17 Block III's which with their AESA radars, and PL15s are more capable in the Air-to-Air domain .....


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## ziaulislam

Sinnerman108 said:


> Dear
> That is not how radars work, most of all AESA doesn't work that way.
> 
> For a 360 coverage, you would have sensors all over the fuselage and the wings.
> That kills the purpose then and there.
> 
> I believe the proverbial 360 is being used as pilot's situational awareness ; which may be achieved once the aircraft is integrated with other airborne surveillance pieces.


He is talking about half a sphere 180 in two dimensions/180 in frontal aspect


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## Signalian

Back in the day, before it was cancelled.
Major Defense Equipment (MDE):
1.Eight F-16 block 52 aircraft (two C and six D models), with the F100-PW-229 increased performance engine
2. Fourteen Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)

Non-MDE items included in this request are:
1.Eight AN/APG-68(V)9 radars
2. Eight ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites (AIDEWS)

The estimated cost of MDE is $564.68 million. The total estimated cost is $699.04 million.

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## syed_yusuf

Signalian said:


> Back in the day, before it was cancelled.
> Major Defense Equipment (MDE):
> 1.Eight F-16 block 52 aircraft (two C and six D models), with the F100-PW-229 increased performance engine
> 2. Fourteen Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS)
> 
> Non-MDE items included in this request are:
> 1.Eight AN/APG-68(V)9 radars
> 2. Eight ALQ-211(V)9 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites (AIDEWS)
> 
> The estimated cost of MDE is $564.68 million. The total estimated cost is $699.04 million.


Does this cost of 699 million USD include MDE and Non MDE?


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## Rahil khan

*Can we assume from this potential sale that Uncle Sam has apparently provided us NOC to have used vipers from friends? Just an assumptious question ? Any senior member ?*


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## Sayfullah

Rahil khan said:


> *Can we assume from this potential sale that Uncle Sam has apparently provided us NOC to have used vipers from friends? Just an assumptious question ? Any senior member ?*


Considering how much india is crying over this alone, I don’t think we’re getting any used vipers anytime soon.


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## GriffinsRule

Sayfullah said:


> Considering how much india is crying over this alone, I don’t think we’re getting any used vipers anytime soon.


Just a standard upkeep contract which people are reading too much into.

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## araz

With the coming of the J10s PAF SEEMS no linger interested in new Vipers. Second hand vipers with upgrades might still be an option but for the US it is of little benefit to help PAF upgrade its fleet knowing fully well the aim will always be IAF. In the coming years we will see more J10s and JFTs fulfilling PAF's needs. The F16 chapter for now is closed.
A

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## VCheng

araz said:


> With the coming of the J10s PAF SEEMS no linger interested in new Vipers. Second hand vipers with upgrades might still be an option but for the US it is of little benefit to help PAF upgrade its fleet knowing fully well the aim will always be IAF. In the coming years we will see more J10s and JFTs fulfilling PAF's needs. The F16 chapter for now is closed.
> A



The F-16s will remain a mainstay of PAF's _defensive _stance for years to come, still, as was always the intention.

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## Talon

araz said:


> With the coming of the J10s PAF SEEMS no linger interested in new Vipers. Second hand vipers with upgrades might still be an option but for the US it is of little benefit to help PAF upgrade its fleet knowing fully well the aim will always be IAF. In the coming years we will see more J10s and JFTs fulfilling PAF's needs. The F16 chapter for now is closed.
> A


Offer them Blk 70s and see how they come running for it .. 

I'll be in the front row 😛

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## MastanKhan

Talon said:


> Offer them Blk 70s and see how they come running for it ..
> 
> I'll be in the front row 😛


Hi,

It is just like breaking up from your girlfriend---. The urgency to go back at the first opportunity is very very strong.

But as time passes---other venues open up and you never look back.

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## Reichmarshal

Talon said:


> Offer them Blk 70s and see how they come running for it ..
> 
> I'll be in the front row 😛


Offer PAF blk 70 or F 35 if they come from the csf funds owed by the u.s to Pak, then n only then PAF is interested other then that PAF ain't interested.

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## PakFactor

Talon said:


> Offer them Blk 70s and see how they come running for it ..
> 
> I'll be in the front row 😛



What incentive is there for the US to offer Block 70? American goals have changed, and India is the new Pakistan, and they know they can get much more from Pakistan without providing anything in return. That's the problem when you sell yourself short; you do not command a high price.



Reichmarshal said:


> Offer PAF blk 70 or F 35 if they come from the csf funds owed by the u.s to Pak, then n only then PAF is interested other then that PAF ain't interested.



It's not about PAF being interested, but does it align with American strategic interest? The answer is no.

Now, you might get something here and there but of no significance to tilt the balance or make it a game changer. As @araz pointed out, the chapter is closed, and you're not getting any F-35s. 😂

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## GriffinsRule

In other news USAF now has the same number of Zombie QF-16 (75) as PAF has

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## ghazi52

Ready to go............

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

"Marshalling a Falcon" Marshalling an F-16 involves a lot of distracting noise and requires full attention. Aircraft marshalling is visual signalling between ground personnel and pilots on flight line or Taxi-Way.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

F-16 MLU dropping 2 x LGBs on ground targets

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## Signalian

5:30 USA relations vis-avis nuclear program

8:00 The new F-16 saga








7:05 onwards F-16s new and upgrade capabilities

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## dinovandoorn

Pakistan Top Gun F-16's

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## ghazi52

,.,.,.







ACM Farooq Feroz Khan can be seen in cockpit of F-16....

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## arslank03

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575724937951989760

"We are determined to serve the interests of both parties and make an announcement regarding the F-16s"
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @Windjammer a further announcement regarding F-16s that serves the interests of Pak... i wonder

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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

arslank03 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575724937951989760
> 
> "We are determined to serve the interests of both parties and make an announcement regarding the F-16s"
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @Windjammer a further announcement regarding F-16s that serves the interests of Pak... i wonder


The sun on the F-16A/B may be setting (slowly), but it's still the morning with the Block-52s. It makes total sense for the PAF to upgrade these fighters eventually, at least with the 5-6K-hour SLEP, if not the total V-package. Ideally, you'd complement those with another 18 or 36 surplus F-16C/D Block-25/32s from the AMARG (also give them the SLEP + V).

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## Ghessan

arslank03 said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575724937951989760
> 
> "We are determined to serve the interests of both parties and make an announcement regarding the F-16s"
> @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD @Windjammer a further announcement regarding F-16s that serves the interests of Pak... i wonder



he is talking about the announcement which is already made.

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## ghazi52

.,.,

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575739612827652096

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.

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## ghazi52

,..,

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=596299378951203

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Basel

Can anyone give some info on following tweet about F-16 deal??


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1577291079430307843

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## mingle

Basel said:


> Can anyone give some info on following tweet about F-16 deal??
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1577291079430307843


I read tweets & ambassador statement could be new Blk70 along V kits with few used ones or he pointing towards recent 450 millions parts & maintenance package

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## ghazi52

On the move.....

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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> I read tweets & ambassador statement could be new Blk70 along V kits with few used ones or he pointing towards recent 450 millions parts & maintenance package


IMO, 450 is a big contract for just parts.

It is probably something different (like structural upgrade or may be b52 kits for older f16s

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> IMO, 450 is a big contract for just parts.
> 
> It is probably something different (like structural upgrade or may be b52 kits for older f16s


Any new about new or old procurement ???


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## ziaulislam

mingle said:


> Any new about new or old procurement ???


My sources says older f16 we're approved if PAF can find them. But it's going to happen pretty silently 
The deal is probably upgrade kits for older f16s

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## mingle

ziaulislam said:


> My sources says older f16 we're approved if PAF can find them. But it's going to happen pretty silently
> The deal is probably upgrade kits for older f16s


That's wise way for PAF shouldn't go for new one get used airframes as many as U can too many are available now

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## emotionless_teenage

There's one ANG unit that's just retire their F-16 recently in favor for F-35. Also Danish F-16 that's meant for Argentina (if they go for F-16)


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## arslank03

emotionless_teenage said:


> There's one ANG unit that's just retire their F-16 recently in favor for F-35. Also Danish F-16 that's meant for Argentina (if they go for F-16)




Many are available from Europe, i think its high time we may end up procuring more to bolster our fleet. Any addition is welcome, we are slowly edging out the IAF in squadron strength, as theirs numbers decrease, ours are increasing at an insane rate, not to mention our squadrons are larger and now we have massively growing unmanned fleet also

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## topsail

ziaulislam said:


> My sources says older f16 we're approved if PAF can find them. But it's going to happen pretty silently
> The deal is probably upgrade kits for older f16s


 Interesting. What do you think the chances are of Pakistan selling its older F-16s and buying more J-10?

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## ziaulislam

topsail said:


> Interesting. What do you think the chances are of Pakistan selling its older F-16s and buying more J-10?


0


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## topsail

ziaulislam said:


> 0



Thanks. It would be so interesting to listen to Pakistan Air Force pilots who have the opportunity to fly both The J-10 and F-16 compare the pros and cons of each aircraft.


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## MastanKhan

topsail said:


> Interesting. What do you think the chances are of Pakistan selling its older F-16s and buying more J-10?


Hi,

No chance at all. Paf has close to 300 + pilots for the F16's and hundred of techs and a lots of other related equipment to maintain them and these are supposedly Tier 1 techs and pilots for the F-16's. 

The F16's would be run to the ground before anything happens.

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## Bleek

Is there any interview by an actual Pakistani pilot giving his two cents of the J-10Cs capabilities in comparison to our Block 52s?

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## MastanKhan

Bleek said:


> Is there any interview by an actual Pakistani pilot giving his two cents of the J-10Cs capabilities in comparison to our Block 52s?


Hi,

A picture is worth a 1000 words---. 

Paf pilots don't need to speak about the J10's---.

The presence of the J-10's in Paf colors is proof enough of its capabilities.

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## maverick1977

PAF will never get new F16s. they will only upgrade to the point of 2035-40. Meanwhile, indigenous products will be launched or upgraded.

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## Bleek

maverick1977 said:


> PAF will never get new F16s. they will only upgrade to the point of 2035-40. Meanwhile, indigenous products will be launched or upgraded.


According to another user they may get approved for new F-16s from other countries

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## SQ8

maverick1977 said:


> PAF will never get new F16s. they will only upgrade to the point of 2035-40. Meanwhile, *indigenous products *will be launched or upgraded.


Of which the Azm is effectively stalled in its 5th gen fighter and will remain confined to churning out a rather conventional MALE UCAV - with efforts focused on trying to get outside help to invest into making the JF-17 a little better even though it has no profit for anyone other than PAF.



Bleek said:


> According to another user they may get approved for new F-16s from other countries


Who else makes new F-16s except the US? There is no other country making factory fresh F-16s from scratch and those are kept out of the question.

Block-42s are being looked around for but so far no airframe is being found worth the investment and those that are have been found to be currently in use or designated critical reserves.

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## Bleek

SQ8 said:


> Block-42s are being looked around for but so far no airframe is being found worth the investment and those that are have been found to be currently in use or designated critical reserves.


But why is US approving sale of pre-owned F-16s but not allowing us to buy straight from them? Is it a price issue on our behalf?


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## Gripen9

Bleek said:


> But why is US approving sale of pre-owned F-16s but not allowing us to buy straight from them? Is it a price issue on our behalf?


Getting approval from US Congress that has a very strong indian lobby will be a challenge. No so much on used airframes esp. from 3rd countries.

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## Flight of falcon

Gripen9 said:


> Getting approval from US Congress that has a very strong indian lobby will be a challenge. No so much on used airframes esp. from 3rd countries.




If I remember correctly there is no need to notify congress if one goes to the third country and buys old/used airframes. State department and Pentagon still need to bless any such deal. Also the real issue is upgrade kits. Any sale of military hardware above $30 Million (the number may have changed) requires congressional approval.

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## Tank131

Bleek said:


> But why is US approving sale of pre-owned F-16s but not allowing us to buy straight from them? Is it a price issue on our behalf?





Gripen9 said:


> Getting approval from US Congress that has a very strong indian lobby will be a challenge. No so much on used airframes esp. from 3rd countries.


This has been addressed. PAF was never restricted on buying new F-16. In fact Obama admin had approved the sale of an additional 8 jets BUT congress restricted the use of coalition support funds for the purchase of F-16s meaning that PAF can buy them but needs to spend its own money. The fact that they were $50M per aircraft made it cost prohibitive for the number of jets being aquired. 

That said older models being given MLU and SLEP or even the V/SABR upgrade would be more potent than any blk 52 PAF would be able to get (i doubt they would be able to get Blk 70/72).

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## SQ8

Bleek said:


> But why is US approving sale of pre-owned F-16s but not allowing us to buy straight from them? Is it a price issue on our behalf?


It is a diplomatic currency issue - India will object(smartly) on even a screw being given to Pakistan because they want every possible advantage in their next fight against Pakistan which is both ongoing (economic, political,diplomatic) and coming at reelections.

The US is doing its best to both make money off India by investing and selling the best military hardware but also looking to create pressure on the Chinese military machine by doing so.
Pakistan isn’t worth 1:20th of India economically or politically - it is essentially a bad investment even for Pakistanis so forget anyone from outside.

The idea for the US isn’t to get India into some military alliance because they know the Indians are too cautious and timid to get into a conflicts with anyone larger than 1/5th their size thanks to historical context. 

However, having the Indians on the US side is important from a economic and geopolitical pressure standpoint and so any new sales to Pakistan are done. Finally, Pakistan no longer has value no matter what instability and “nuclear danger” is pitched by its primary ruling elite. The “cry wolf” isn’t working as well so what is being done is the bare minimum. 

Pakistan is welcome to go find any used F-16s that might be worthy of keeping alive(provided that country too is willing to sacrifice its relationship with India for it) and upgrade them - but the US cannot find wiggle room for it because the Indians are hyper sensitive about even the slightest advantage Pakistanis might get.

Your COAS wasn’t venting aimlessly that any deal for western hardware is scuttled so what is Pakistan to do except run to China…

At the end of the day, the current F-16 fleet will soldier on to become the Mirages of their time and the US is happy to let that happen.
Maybe Pakistan will be allowed in 5-10 years to go and find F-16 like it does with Mirages and pretty much have a F-16 rebuild factory and so on depending upon its own budgets.

But for now, all there is being given are structural upgrades, spares restocking? ECM threat library updates and software tweaks to keep that bare minimum calculation alive of Pakistan being able to just hold off enough for the world to intervene in case of a major escalation



Tank131 said:


> This has been addressed. *PAF was never restricted on buying new F-16*. In fact Obama admin had approved the sale of an additional 8 jets BUT congress restricted the use of coalition support funds for the purchase of F-16s meaning that PAF can buy them but needs to spend its own money. The fact that they were $50M per aircraft made it cost prohibitive for the number of jets being aquired.
> 
> That said older models being given MLU and SLEP or even the V/SABR upgrade would be more potent than any blk 52 PAF would be able to get (i doubt they would be able to get Blk 70/72).


Water under the bridge since then - however, money has never been object if Pakistan even had enough to make any sales worthwhile versus Indian interests

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## Bleek

Tank131 said:


> That said older models being given MLU and SLEP or even the V/SABR upgrade would be more potent than any blk 52 PAF would be able to get (i doubt they would be able to get Blk 70/72).


According to Google we've got 85 F-16s, how many of them are Block 52s, MLU, etc?


----------



## Bleek

SQ8 said:


> It is a diplomatic currency issue - India will object(smartly) on even a screw being given to Pakistan because they want every possible advantage in their next fight against Pakistan which is both ongoing (economic, political,diplomatic) and coming at reelections.
> 
> The US is doing its best to both make money off India by investing and selling the best military hardware but also looking to create pressure on the Chinese military machine by doing so.
> Pakistan isn’t worth 1:20th of India economically or politically - it is essentially a bad investment even for Pakistanis so forget anyone from outside.
> 
> The idea for the US isn’t to get India into some military alliance because they know the Indians are too cautious and timid to get into a conflicts with anyone larger than 1/5th their size thanks to historical context.
> 
> However, having the Indians on the US side is important from a economic and geopolitical pressure standpoint and so any new sales to Pakistan are done. Finally, Pakistan no longer has value no matter what instability and “nuclear danger” is pitched by its primary ruling elite. The “cry wolf” isn’t working as well so what is being done is the bare minimum.
> 
> Pakistan is welcome to go find any used F-16s that might be worthy of keeping alive(provided that country too is willing to sacrifice its relationship with India for it) and upgrade them - but the US cannot find wiggle room for it because the Indians are hyper sensitive about even the slightest advantage Pakistanis might get.
> 
> Your COAS wasn’t venting aimlessly that any deal for western hardware is scuttled so what is Pakistan to do except run to China…
> 
> At the end of the day, the current F-16 fleet will soldier on to become the Mirages of their time and the US is happy to let that happen.
> Maybe Pakistan will be allowed in 5-10 years to go and find F-16 like it does with Mirages and pretty much have a F-16 rebuild factory and so on depending upon its own budgets.
> 
> But for now, all there is being given are structural upgrades, spares restocking? ECM threat library updates and software tweaks to keep that bare minimum calculation alive of Pakistan being able to just hold off enough for the world to intervene in case of a major escalation


Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Seems like Pakistan's priority should be building indigenous capabilities rather than relying on foreign nations as India is simply a more beneficial partner.


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## ziaulislam

SQ8 said:


> It is a diplomatic currency issue - India will object(smartly) on even a screw being given to Pakistan because they want every possible advantage in their next fight against Pakistan which is both ongoing (economic, political,diplomatic) and coming at reelections.
> 
> The US is doing its best to both make money off India by investing and selling the best military hardware but also looking to create pressure on the Chinese military machine by doing so.
> Pakistan isn’t worth 1:20th of India economically or politically - it is essentially a bad investment even for Pakistanis so forget anyone from outside.
> 
> The idea for the US isn’t to get India into some military alliance because they know the Indians are too cautious and timid to get into a conflicts with anyone larger than 1/5th their size thanks to historical context.
> 
> However, having the Indians on the US side is important from a economic and geopolitical pressure standpoint and so any new sales to Pakistan are done. Finally, Pakistan no longer has value no matter what instability and “nuclear danger” is pitched by its primary ruling elite. The “cry wolf” isn’t working as well so what is being done is the bare minimum.
> 
> Pakistan is welcome to go find any used F-16s that might be worthy of keeping alive(provided that country too is willing to sacrifice its relationship with India for it) and upgrade them - but the US cannot find wiggle room for it because the Indians are hyper sensitive about even the slightest advantage Pakistanis might get.
> 
> Your COAS wasn’t venting aimlessly that any deal for western hardware is scuttled so what is Pakistan to do except run to China…
> 
> At the end of the day, the current F-16 fleet will soldier on to become the Mirages of their time and the US is happy to let that happen.
> Maybe Pakistan will be allowed in 5-10 years to go and find F-16 like it does with Mirages and pretty much have a F-16 rebuild factory and so on depending upon its own budgets.
> 
> But for now, all there is being given are structural upgrades, spares restocking? ECM threat library updates and software tweaks to keep that bare minimum calculation alive of Pakistan being able to just hold off enough for the world to intervene in case of a major escalation
> 
> 
> Water under the bridge since then - however, money has never been object if Pakistan even had enough to make any sales worthwhile versus Indian interests


And that's a good thing

This pitch is what put us in current mess


----------



## Gripen9

Tank131 said:


> This has been addressed. PAF was never restricted on buying new F-16. In fact Obama admin had approved the sale of an additional 8 jets BUT congress restricted the use of coalition support funds for the purchase of F-16s meaning that PAF can buy them but needs to spend its own money. The fact that they were $50M per aircraft made it cost prohibitive for the number of jets being aquired.
> 
> That said older models being given MLU and SLEP or even the V/SABR upgrade would be more potent than any blk 52 PAF would be able to get (i doubt they would be able to get Blk 70/72).


That was then. Times have changed. Just like at that time, Obama admin had approved the sale as well as the Ah-1Z, any new contract will have to be approved by first the administration and then US Congress will have oversight. It will be hard to justify in current situation plus the Indian lobby influence.


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## Flight of falcon

Gripen9 said:


> That was then. Times have changed. Just like at that time, Obama admin had approved the sale as well as the Ah-1Z, any new contract will have to be approved by first the administration and then US Congress will have oversight. It will be hard to justify in current situation plus the Indian lobby influence.




Trust me on this . Americans dont give rats *** about how much Indian lobby screams and cry. 

If they see such sale in their national security interest they wont give a shit how many H1B holders jump off Brooklyn bridge . 

Remember this lobby was there when Obama authorized new F16s ….


----------



## SQ8

Bleek said:


> Thanks for the detailed explanation.
> 
> Seems like Pakistan's priority should be building indigenous capabilities rather than relying on foreign nations as India is simply a more beneficial partner.





ziaulislam said:


> And that's a good thing
> 
> This pitch is what put us in current mess


Without going to far outside of F-16 scope - there is no long term coordination in general of foreign policy with defense procurement as such.

The powers in corridor arent smart enough to know if they do something stupid. God’s gift to earth is the name of the game and the result is that most Air Staff requirements end up needing revisions because a rosy assumption is taken by one “Yes man” party - then a good pragmatic team arrives, readjusts and then another “Yes Sir” team goes and open the glutes out forcibly in the cycle.

Pakistan has no true indigenous capacity due to lack of focused policy and impromptu efforts are just that - impromptu.
Their attempts to attract any expat or foriegn talent fell flat after IK’s shaky majority and then downfall so all they are now good for is the samosa pepsi copy paste types who will waste taxpayer money and that is that.



Flight of falcon said:


> Trust me on this . Americans dont give rats *** about how much Indian lobby screams and cry.
> 
> If they see such sale in their national security interest they wont give a shit how many H1B holders jump off Brooklyn bridge .
> 
> Remember this lobby was there when Obama authorized new F16s ….


No
America is focused on its benefits - if it weighs that its benefits are with supplying Pakistan a token 12 F-16s and V upgrade kits versus getting India to buy 36 F/A-18s, additional 24 Apaches, perhaps even F-35s and more billions of defense equipment it will make it happen.

But so far and foreseeable to the near and far future that is NOT in America’s benefit. Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Raytheon are businesses - they will not cut off the proverbial leg to please their little finger in a sale to Pakistan. If they can get both its great but until India says no - Pakistan can(as if it wasn’t) go to hell

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## TNT

In current situation, investing in F16 is useless, we will never get good upgrades or new ones or good armament for it. So its better we just keep the current fleet of F16 and not add any used ones and instead focus on J10C.

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## Reichmarshal

After the "jhandi" that bajwa got from the Americans n with rafeal visiting Pakistan n only meeting Imran inspite of best efforts of the govt. To arrange a meeting with shobaz n bilawal......we ain't getting squat from the American as long as bajwa is incharge


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## Bleek

Reichmarshal said:


> After the "jhandi" that bajwa got from the Americans n with rafeal visiting Pakistan n only meeting Imran inspite of best efforts of the govt. To arrange a meeting with shobaz n bilawal......we ain't getting squat from the American as long as bajwa is incharge


It's not really about who is in charge of Pakistan, it's about what benefits America the most.

In fact Bajwa is ready to lift American balls to a certain degree as he has shown but the question is does it serve America's strategic objectives by arming Pakistan with what it desires?


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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

TNT said:


> In current situation, investing in F16 is useless, we will never get good upgrades or new ones or good armament for it. So its better we just keep the current fleet of F16 and not add any used ones and instead focus on J10C.


If you can convince the USA - I don't know how - to let your F16s go through the Turkish Ozgur program it'll be like heavenly...

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## araz

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> If you can convince the USA - I don't know how - to let your F16s go through the Turkish Ozgur program it'll be like heavenly...


Yara.
Sorry to say this but do you have dementia or selective amnesia? Not a couple of weeks ago you brought up the same subject and I explained to you that the Ozgur upgrade cannot happen without US approval. Secondly the programme itself has not been installed on the Turkish fighters. Why will the Turks sell to Pakistan and Pakistan buy an untested system? Evwn if the Turks have installed it they have inherent local demand which will need to be met first and the system mature before it is sold elsewhere. So please keep the Ozgur drivel to yourself. It cannot be done.
Regards
A


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=642966847439515

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## AeroEngineer

Probably pre-delivery picture
F-16A 84704 29 Feb 1984 at Shaw AFB, SC

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## ghazi52

,..,

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## Bilal9

If this is a repeat video post, my apologies.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Viper's Den PAF Base Shahbaz

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## ghazi52

Nice line up..

An impressive line-up of Pakistani F-16 from No.9 Multirole Squadron "Griffins". 
Actually, the whole squadron is lined up outside basking in the sun at PAF Base Mushaf, Sargodha.

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## AeroEngineer

ghazi52 said:


> Nice line up..
> 
> An impressive line-up of Pakistani F-16 from No.9 Multirole Squadron "Griffins".
> Actually, the whole squadron is lined up outside basking in the sun at PAF Base Mushaf, Sargodha.
> 
> 
> View attachment 888079


This is not Mushaf but 3rd Main Jet Base at Konya, Turkey and this picture is from one of the Anatolian Eagle exercises

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## Cool_Soldier

Pakistan should try to gain remaining F16 from USA that USA owe to give us as per agreement.


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## Trailer23

...and in other news Comedy Central - I mean *Times* *Now* reported...






*Greece has turned down a request by Pakistan for its F-16 fighter aircraft*​
*Srinjoy Chowdhury*
Oct 20, 2022

Pakistan recently asked Greece whether it was ready to sell an unspecified number of F16 fighters, but the reply has been a firm “No” keeping in mind the needs of the Hellenic Air Force and also, Athens’ friendship with New Delhi. Greece has a slightly uneasy relationship with Turkey, also a NATO member and there is also uncertainty about the war in Ukraine.

The Pakistan Air Force’s best fighter aircraft is the F16, but most of the 80-odd are the older AM-Block 15 and the BM-Block 17 versions. Greece, on the other hand, has the newer F16C and the F16D versions. They are also Block 52. And now, 83 of the 150odd F16s are being upgraded to the latest Block 72 variant.




​Pakistan’s requirements come as the United States has provided $US450 million in spares and also, other implements, but provided no new fighters. The US has proved spares and other equipment and with the spares at hand, Pakistan had hoped to get new weapons.

Greece is one of the few countries that have the F16 and the Rafale. Which is of interest to India and the Indian Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshal VR Chowdhary’s trip to Athens is pending.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Ab Indian Members wo kahani dai-engay kay ye _*Srinjoy*_ bunda koi bohot he bara Defense Analyst hai] But so far no one has released any such information.

Indian Media - next level...

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Strike & Assault as brief as swift, they say one plan to intrude & five plans for exit ...


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## Sinnerman108

Trailer23 said:


> ...and in other news Comedy Central - I mean *Times* *Now* reported...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Greece has turned down a request by Pakistan for its F-16 fighter aircraft*​
> *Srinjoy Chowdhury*
> Oct 20, 2022
> 
> Pakistan recently asked Greece whether it was ready to sell an unspecified number of F16 fighters, but the reply has been a firm “No” keeping in mind the needs of the Hellenic Air Force and also, Athens’ friendship with New Delhi. Greece has a slightly uneasy relationship with Turkey, also a NATO member and there is also uncertainty about the war in Ukraine.
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force’s best fighter aircraft is the F16, but most of the 80-odd are the older AM-Block 15 and the BM-Block 17 versions. Greece, on the other hand, has the newer F16C and the F16D versions. They are also Block 52. And now, 83 of the 150odd F16s are being upgraded to the latest Block 72 variant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​Pakistan’s requirements come as the United States has provided $US450 million in spares and also, other implements, but provided no new fighters. The US has proved spares and other equipment and with the spares at hand, Pakistan had hoped to get new weapons.
> 
> Greece is one of the few countries that have the F16 and the Rafale. Which is of interest to India and the Indian Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshal VR Chowdhary’s trip to Athens is pending.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> [Ab Indian Members wo kahani dai-engay kay ye _*Srinjoy*_ bunda koi bohot he bara Defense Analyst hai] But so far no one has released any such information.
> 
> Indian Media - next level...




that is a stupidity only indians can pull.

Greece and Pakistan are on the opposite sides,
to the extent that greece has accused pakistan of providing pilots to the turkish airforce.
There is absolutely, no freaking way any such request could ever be made.

but sure pagans can pull anything.

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## Ghessan

Trailer23 said:


> ...and in other news Comedy Central - I mean *Times* *Now* reported...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Greece has turned down a request by Pakistan for its F-16 fighter aircraft*​
> *Srinjoy Chowdhury*
> Oct 20, 2022
> 
> Pakistan recently asked Greece whether it was ready to sell an unspecified number of F16 fighters, but the reply has been a firm “No” keeping in mind the needs of the Hellenic Air Force and also, Athens’ friendship with New Delhi. Greece has a slightly uneasy relationship with Turkey, also a NATO member and there is also uncertainty about the war in Ukraine.
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force’s best fighter aircraft is the F16, but most of the 80-odd are the older AM-Block 15 and the BM-Block 17 versions. Greece, on the other hand, has the newer F16C and the F16D versions. They are also Block 52. And now, 83 of the 150odd F16s are being upgraded to the latest Block 72 variant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​Pakistan’s requirements come as the United States has provided $US450 million in spares and also, other implements, but provided no new fighters. The US has proved spares and other equipment and with the spares at hand, Pakistan had hoped to get new weapons.
> 
> Greece is one of the few countries that have the F16 and the Rafale. Which is of interest to India and the Indian Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshal VR Chowdhary’s trip to Athens is pending.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> [Ab Indian Members wo kahani dai-engay kay ye _*Srinjoy*_ bunda koi bohot he bara Defense Analyst hai] But so far no one has released any such information.
> 
> Indian Media - next level...


news spilling the beans, it may be a go ahead for this shopping spree. we may see some news soon. 
big question is upgrade.


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## MIRauf

Cool_Soldier said:


> Pakistan should try to gain remaining F16 from USA that USA owe to give us as per agreement.


Agree with you 100%, please do return the exact same Soybeans that your BB accepted before we can release the jets.


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## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Greece is upgrading all of its PW-equipped F-16s, the only ones left are the GE-equipped ones. However, I don't think the PAF is interested in those planes. It's hunting for various PW-equipped variants, e.g., Block-25, 32, 42, and 52. IIRC, it's pretty much just the U.S. that has most of these airframes. If the PAF can get into the AMARG and grab 2-3 squadrons, it'd be ideal.

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## ziaulislam

Trailer23 said:


> ...and in other news Comedy Central - I mean *Times* *Now* reported...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Greece has turned down a request by Pakistan for its F-16 fighter aircraft*​
> *Srinjoy Chowdhury*
> Oct 20, 2022
> 
> Pakistan recently asked Greece whether it was ready to sell an unspecified number of F16 fighters, but the reply has been a firm “No” keeping in mind the needs of the Hellenic Air Force and also, Athens’ friendship with New Delhi. Greece has a slightly uneasy relationship with Turkey, also a NATO member and there is also uncertainty about the war in Ukraine.
> 
> The Pakistan Air Force’s best fighter aircraft is the F16, but most of the 80-odd are the older AM-Block 15 and the BM-Block 17 versions. Greece, on the other hand, has the newer F16C and the F16D versions. They are also Block 52. And now, 83 of the 150odd F16s are being upgraded to the latest Block 72 variant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​Pakistan’s requirements come as the United States has provided $US450 million in spares and also, other implements, but provided no new fighters. The US has proved spares and other equipment and with the spares at hand, Pakistan had hoped to get new weapons.
> 
> Greece is one of the few countries that have the F16 and the Rafale. Which is of interest to India and the Indian Air Force chief, Air Chief Marshal VR Chowdhary’s trip to Athens is pending.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> [Ab Indian Members wo kahani dai-engay kay ye _*Srinjoy*_ bunda koi bohot he bara Defense Analyst hai] But so far no one has released any such information.
> 
> Indian Media - next level...


Actually true news.

PAF is looking for used f16 as Biden gave a green signal 6 months ago.

PAF is trying to get 2-3 squadrons. 

India knows this too and is pushing to counter it

New f16s won't pass from congress due to Indian lobbying


----------



## Trailer23

ziaulislam said:


> Actually true news.
> 
> PAF is looking for used f16 as Biden gave a green signal 6 months ago.
> 
> PAF is trying to get 2-3 squadrons.
> 
> India knows this too and is pushing to counter it
> 
> New f16s won't pass from congress due to Indian lobbying


Everything you mentioned is accurate, except for the first statement.

Pakistan knows better than to go to Greece for that option be it India's relations with Greece or Turkey's issues with Greece.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## arslank03

Trailer23 said:


> Everything you mentioned is accurate, except for the first statement.
> 
> Pakistan knows better than to go to Greece for that option be it India's relations with Greece or Turkey's issues with Greece.



I think this is another show of Pakistans poor FP. Until recently, Pakistan was even looking to grab Hydra class frigates from Greece, if we had played a balancing act i think we would have kept our relationship with Turkey while also maintaining a working relationship with Greece, in the same way the Arabs do things, or even the Russians at that

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

F-16 flying a CAP mission, armed with 6 live missiles: 2 AIM-9 Sidewinder IR missiles and 4 AIM-120C AMRAAMs. The fighter belongs to the 39th multirole wing’s No. 9 ‘Griffins’ Squadron, Central Air Command PAF

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAF F-16D on the taxiway

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## ghazi52

././

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## Basel



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

ALQ-131 SPJ on the centerline aggressors get to have all the fun.

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## MastanKhan

Bleek said:


> But why is US approving sale of pre-owned F-16s but not allowing us to buy straight from them? Is it a price issue on our behalf?


Hi,

If pakistan can pay, there is no problem getting new F16's. 

Now will the uS sell the one with aesa---???


----------



## Signalian

Basel said:


> View attachment 889286


Also according to me and many others here since years, is there an official statement ?


----------



## FuturePAF

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If pakistan can pay, there is no problem getting new F16's.
> 
> Now will the uS sell the one with aesa---???



Pakistan has two options outside of US suppliers if that is an issue for an agreement for an upgrade. The Ozgur from the Turks or a Leonardo Upgrade by the Italians.

But realistically if they approve an upgrade they are gonna want the deal for US companies.

The F-16V upgrade is the same the Taiwanese will get and the US may not want the PAF to have the same sub-systems integrated into networks/datalinks with Chinese equipment operated by the PAF, potentially revealing some capabilities.

Looking back at an old post of mine from 3 1/2 years ago, the global used F-16 inventories that could be plausible source of air frames would be:

USAF active and retired
Various US state Air National Guards
30 Danish F-16AM
60 Dutch F-16AM
46 Norwegian F-16A
43 Belgian F-16A
30 Portuguese F-16
200+ Turkish F-16
63 Jordanian F-16

Unlikely the Turks will sell when they have their own needs. Jordan looks like the best option. Greece would be a long shot, hence why I did not include them.

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## Yasser76

My guess is around 18 Jordanian MLUs, giving us an A/B/C/D fleet of 93 Vipers. Then we upgrade all of them to V standard and order another sqd of 18 new Vs giving us a total of 121 F-16Vs split into 7 combat Sqds plus CCS/Aggressors unit.
Add that to say 4 J-10 units and 10 JF-17 units you are looking at a 21 Squadron force and final retirement of all Mirages and F-7PGs

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## musaji

FuturePAF said:


> Pakistan has two options outside of US suppliers if that is an issue for an agreement for an upgrade. The Ozgur from the Turks or a Leonardo Upgrade by the Italians.
> 
> But realistically if they approve an upgrade they are gonna want the deal for US companies.
> 
> The F-16V upgrade is the same the Taiwanese will get and the US may not want the PAF to have the same sub-systems integrated into networks/datalinks with Chinese equipment operated by the PAF, potentially revealing some capabilities.
> 
> Looking back at an old post of mine from 3 1/2 years ago, the global used F-16 inventories that could be plausible source of air frames would be:
> 
> USAF active and retired
> Various US state Air National Guards
> 30 Danish F-16AM
> 60 Dutch F-16AM
> 46 Norwegian F-16A
> 43 Belgian F-16A
> 30 Portuguese F-16
> 200+ Turkish F-16
> 63 Jordanian F-16
> 
> Unlikely the Turks will sell when they have their own needs. Jordan looks like the best option. Greece would be a long shot, hence why I did not include them.


with the threat of War with Russia looming, europe won't be willing to sell their F-16s.

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## FuturePAF

musaji said:


> with the threat of War with Russia looming, europe won't be willing to sell their F-16s.


Good point. So that only leaves the Jordanians and the USAF/USANG

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## arslank03

Yasser76 said:


> My guess is around 18 Jordanian MLUs, giving us an A/B/C/D fleet of 93 Vipers. Then we upgrade all of them to V standard and order another sqd of 18 new Vs giving us a total of 121 F-16Vs split into 7 combat Sqds plus CCS/Aggressors unit.
> Add that to say 4 J-10 units and 10 JF-17 units you are looking at a 21 Squadron force and final retirement of all Mirages and F-7PGs


would be the dream, genuinely IAF can kiss its superiority goodbye



musaji said:


> with the threat of War with Russia looming, europe won't be willing to sell their F-16s.


theyre being replaced


----------



## Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Yasser76 said:


> My guess is around 18 Jordanian MLUs, giving us an A/B/C/D fleet of 93 Vipers. Then we upgrade all of them to V standard and order another sqd of 18 new Vs giving us a total of 121 F-16Vs split into 7 combat Sqds plus CCS/Aggressors unit.
> Add that to say 4 J-10 units and 10 JF-17 units you are looking at a 21 Squadron force and final retirement of all Mirages and F-7PGs


For the PAF, the ideal mix is having a total of around 100~110 F-16A/Bs and 50~75 F-16C/Ds in total. This was the original trajectory if not for Pressler. It would likely keep a lot of those airframes in reserve too so as to keep a core fleet of 90~110 active at all times.

The good thing about the F-16A/B variants and the Block-25/32 C/Ds is that Turkey has the access to carry out ÖZGÜR upgrade on those variants. For the Block-52, the PAF would need to get the F-16V upgrade. You get those upgrades plus the 5,000-hour SLEP on the F-16C/Ds -- plus the J-10s and JF-17 Block-3s -- you'd gain a superb 4+/4.5 cadre to both hold until the NGFA comes online and, later, complement it effectively.

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## Trailer23

FuturePAF said:


> USAF active and retired
> Various US state Air National Guards
> 30 Danish F-16AM
> 60 Dutch F-16AM
> 46 Norwegian F-16A
> 43 Belgian F-16A
> 30 Portuguese F-16
> 200+ Turkish F-16
> 63 Jordanian F-16


Norway doesn't have any F-16's - anymore.

They sold 'em all to Romania for pennies.

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## FuturePAF

Trailer23 said:


> Norway doesn't have any F-16's - anymore.
> 
> They sold 'em all to Romania for pennies.


Thanks for the clarification. Sad the PAF couldn’t pick them up for Pennies or even nickels and dimes.


----------



## Signalian

musaji said:


> with the threat of War with Russia looming, europe won't be willing to sell their F-16s.


Europe should be looking to get more F-35/UCAVs based on this opportunity instead of relying on F-16s which they have slated for retirement.



FuturePAF said:


> Pakistan has two options outside of US suppliers if that is an issue for an agreement for an upgrade. The Ozgur from the Turks or a Leonardo Upgrade by the Italians.
> 
> But realistically if they approve an upgrade they are gonna want the deal for US companies.
> 
> The F-16V upgrade is the same the Taiwanese will get and the US may not want the PAF to have the same sub-systems integrated into networks/datalinks with Chinese equipment operated by the PAF, potentially revealing some capabilities.
> 
> Looking back at an old post of mine from 3 1/2 years ago, the global used F-16 inventories that could be plausible source of air frames would be:
> 
> USAF active and retired
> Various US state Air National Guards
> 30 Danish F-16AM
> 60 Dutch F-16AM
> 46 Norwegian F-16A
> 43 Belgian F-16A
> 30 Portuguese F-16
> 200+ Turkish F-16
> 63 Jordanian F-16
> 
> Unlikely the Turks will sell when they have their own needs. Jordan looks like the best option. Greece would be a long shot, hence why I did not include them.


Even if V-upgrade comes 5-10 years later for PAF, it doesn't really impact that much.

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## Signalian

Yasser76 said:


> My guess is around 18 Jordanian MLUs, giving us an A/B/C/D fleet of 93 Vipers. Then we upgrade all of them to V standard and order another sqd of 18 new Vs giving us a total of 121 F-16Vs split into 7 combat Sqds plus CCS/Aggressors unit.
> Add that to say 4 J-10 units and 10 JF-17 units you are looking at a 21 Squadron force and final retirement of all Mirages and F-7PGs


PAF has 16 combat squadrons, 4 combat and training squadrons, and 3 squadrons under CCS including Aggressors. This includes 5 Mirage combat squadrons and 1 Mirage CCS squadron. The Mirage replacement becomes tricky with the various types of weapons Mirage can carry. If those weapons can be integrated on J-10 and JFT, the role transfer can be smooth. 

F-16 can then replace the remaining 2 F-7PG squadrons from the options you mentioned.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAF & F16 Fighting Falcon. Lethal Combination.

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## Ali_Baba

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> Turkey has the access to carry out ÖZGÜR upgrade on those variants.



Can the ÖZGÜR also fire AMRAAMs in addition to the home grown Turkish weapons systems ?


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## Tank131

Ali_Baba said:


> Can the ÖZGÜR also fire AMRAAMs in addition to the home grown Turkish weapons systems ?


One needs to ask if the Ozgur upgrade were ready, why has Turkey not started rolling it out and why has it requested SABR upgrades?


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

F-16D Block 52+ multirole fighter on a training sortie above Punjab

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

F-16C Block 52+ Featuring 4 AIM-120Cs and 2 AIM-9s plus a SNIPER pod

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## FuturePAF

Has the PAF approached the Belgians? Perhaps once the current Ukraine war dies down or because of it and the Belgians modernize and acquire the F-35 starting in 2023, are there any indications the PAF has approached them to acquire their F-16s?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1586765097740943362








The assembly of the first two Belgian F-35s has started in Italy, according to Lockheed Martin


The assembly of the first two F-35A Lightning II fighter planes intended for the Belgian Air Force has begun in Italy, with a view to their delivery next




www.aviation24.be

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Scorpiooo

Bleek said:


> According to another user they may get approved for new F-16s from other countries


New from other country, only usa manufacturing them , on other hamd semi new block 52 are there with Egyptian and Iraqis



Gripen9 said:


> Getting approval from US Congress that has a very strong indian lobby will be a challenge. No so much on used airframes esp. from 3rd countries.


May be they already got Green signal


----------



## Scorpiooo

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If pakistan can pay, there is no problem getting new F16's.
> 
> Now will the uS sell the one with aesa---???


Very rear chances due indian lobby


----------



## Scorpiooo

Bilal Khan (Quwa) said:


> For the PAF, the ideal mix is having a total of around 100~110 F-16A/Bs and 50~75 F-16C/Ds in total. This was the original trajectory if not for Pressler. It would likely keep a lot of those airframes in reserve too so as to keep a core fleet of 90~110 active at all times.
> 
> The good thing about the F-16A/B variants and the Block-25/32 C/Ds is that Turkey has the access to carry out ÖZGÜR upgrade on those variants. For the Block-52, the PAF would need to get the F-16V upgrade. You get those upgrades plus the 5,000-hour SLEP on the F-16C/Ds -- plus the J-10s and JF-17 Block-3s -- you'd gain a superb 4+/4.5 cadre to both hold until the NGFA comes online and, later, complement it effectively.


What level of block ÖZGÜR upgrade from TAI will take F16s too


----------



## MastanKhan

Scorpiooo said:


> Very rear chances due indian lobby


Hi,

Wait & see---. They don't know about the aesa in the J-10 nor do they know about the aesa in the BLK3 or possibly the blk2 JF17's---.

Once they find out their capabilities---american aesa will be on a platter.

Look wha the J-10 has done to pakistan---within month or month---the Prime Minster toppled----F16 accessories available---possible other F16's available---.

And for how long was I stating that---over a decade and half ago---.

The J-10 C's made the power completely slip away from the american hands---made the americans react so predicatble---.

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## Ghessan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Wait & see---. They don't know about the aesa in the J-10 nor do they know about the aesa in the BLK3 or possibly the blk2 JF17's---.
> 
> Once they find out their capabilities---american aesa will be on a platter.
> 
> Look wha the J-10 has done to pakistan---within month or month---the Prime Minster toppled----F16 accessories available---possible other F16's available---.
> 
> And for how long was I stating that---over a decade and half ago---.
> 
> *The J-10 C's made the power completely slip away from the american hands---made the americans react so predicatble---.*



got this opportunity after a long time. 

may be put it this way, they were forced into this situation and there was an opportunity waiting. but the door is now open. 

with China and Turkey coming up fast, lots of options will encourage Pak military. 

they must learn how to exploit the situation instead of being dumb a** as usual.


----------



## MastanKhan

Ghessan said:


> got this opportunity after a long time.
> 
> may be put it this way, they were forced into this situation and there was an opportunity waiting. but the door is now open.
> 
> with China and Turkey coming up fast, lots of options will encourage Pak military.
> 
> they must learn how to exploit the situation instead of being dumb a** as usual.


Hi,

If worked properly---pakistan has a lot to gain by getting more F16's---.

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## ghazi52

,.,.

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## mshan44



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## air marshal




----------



## GriffinsRule

air marshal said:


>


Cant be that aggressive flying with wing tanks


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

On April 16, 1987, PAF F-16 flown by Sqn Ldr Badar-ul-Islam shot down an intruding Afghan Su-22 near Thal area during the Afghan War. Sqn Ldr Saif-ur-Rahman was the Air Defence Controller on radar for this mission.


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A Pakistan Air Force F-16B EMLU-III out on a training mission

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A Pakistani F-16 Block 52+ landing back at its airbase, returning from a training mission over the Punjab Province


----------



## Raider 21

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> A Pakistan Air Force F-16B EMLU-III out on a training mission
> View attachment 895262


No this is in the US and it is being flown by Lockheed Martin on a test mission.

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## Path-Finder

Ideally how many PAF F16 could get this upgrade? Hypothetically!


----------



## syed_yusuf

Path-Finder said:


> Ideally how many PAF F16 could get this upgrade? Hypothetically!


18

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## ghazi52

,..,.,
Pakistan Air Force No. 19 MR Squadron aka "Sherdils" stationed at PAF Bholari under PAF 41 TA Wing, SAC with F-16A/B 'Viper'.


----------



## Windjammer

8

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## Sinnerman108

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 896690
> 8



that is saudi arabia. 
somewhere near dahran i am guessing.


----------



## ghazi52

Pakistan Air Force Calendar 2023

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## Dreamer.

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> Isn’t F16 an outdated aircraft i think 50 years have passed since the first f16 took flight and it’s made up of aluminum alloy not of composite materials like most modern aircrafts are


Sure, most PAF aircraft are outdated. So what? Why do you care?
It's PAF that will have to fight invincible mki's and rafale's with all the outdated stuff. You should be happy.

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## WaqarAhmed161247

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> Rafales are not gonna be the mainstay of Indian airforce their mainstay will be around 400 Tejas series of aircrafts and the 272 Su30mki in foreseeable future (su30mki will start retiring after 2040)
> India will upgrade Their Su30mki with their own indigenously developed UTTAM AESA Radar (which they developed for Tejas series of aircrafts) under the super sukhoi upgrade package apart from the several other upgrades
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Development of Scaled-Up Version of UTTAM AESA Radar For Sukhoi Su-30MKI Has Begun: Report
> 
> 
> The Defence Research & Development Organization (DRDO) formally completed transfer of technology for the production of the Uttam active elec...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.indiandefensenews.in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They will also try to modify or replace the Russian Al-31 FP engine but I don’t know how possible it is because so far India hasn’t been able to develop a 90 kn wet thrust engine to power Tejas but even if they fail to do so the engines will get replaced with Al 41 russian engines anyway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India looks to add muscle to Kaveri engine for upgraded Su-30 MKI fighters
> 
> 
> Talks are on with the French side to up-rate the engine for both Tejas and Sukhoi fleets Manu Pubby
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theprint.in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But the most important thing here is that with Indian AESA Radars and Indian mission computer they will be able integrate meteor missiles in su30mki


wah wah big hopes


----------



## Readerdefence

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> Rafales are not gonna be the mainstay of Indian airforce their mainstay will be around 400 Tejas series of aircrafts and the 272 Su30mki in foreseeable future (su30mki will start retiring after 2040)
> India will upgrade Their Su30mki with their own indigenously developed UTTAM AESA Radar (which they developed for Tejas series of aircrafts) under the super sukhoi upgrade package apart from the several other upgrades
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Development of Scaled-Up Version of UTTAM AESA Radar For Sukhoi Su-30MKI Has Begun: Report
> 
> 
> The Defence Research & Development Organization (DRDO) formally completed transfer of technology for the production of the Uttam active elec...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.indiandefensenews.in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They will also try to modify or replace the Russian Al-31 FP engine but I don’t know how possible it is because so far India hasn’t been able to develop a 90 kn wet thrust engine to power Tejas but even if they fail to do so the engines will get replaced with Al 41 russian engines anyway
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> India looks to add muscle to Kaveri engine for upgraded Su-30 MKI fighters
> 
> 
> Talks are on with the French side to up-rate the engine for both Tejas and Sukhoi fleets Manu Pubby
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theprint.in
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But the most important thing here is that with Indian AESA Radars and Indian mission computer they will be able integrate meteor missiles in su30mki


Hi just a line of advise you just been hatched recently & if doesn’t want to be ban on this thread stop p irrelevant post rest up to you 
thank you


----------



## Dreamer.

Chandragupt Maurya said:


> Rafales are not gonna be the mainstay of Indian airforce their mainstay will be around 400 Tejas series of aircrafts and the 272 Su30mki in foreseeable future


Even better. The 400 tejas being brand new should fare even better aganist outdated F-16 Blk 52's than rafales or mki could ever possibly have done. More happiness for you.

BTW your entire post is irrelevant to the thread. Post it and any other boasts you have in the indian section.


----------



## Scorpiooo

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Wait & see---. They don't know about the aesa in the J-10 nor do they know about the aesa in the BLK3 or possibly the blk2 JF17's---.
> 
> Once they find out their capabilities---american aesa will be on a platter.
> 
> Look wha the J-10 has done to pakistan---within month or month---the Prime Minster toppled----F16 accessories available---possible other F16's available---.
> 
> And for how long was I stating that---over a decade and half ago---.
> 
> The J-10 C's made the power completely slip away from the american hands---made the americans react so predicatble---.


Do they really don't know about Aesa radar capabilities on J10c or JFT17C till now..
But if really willing to give us block 70 along with AIm120D, they will be compromise indian deals



MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> If worked properly---pakistan has a lot to gain by getting more F16's---.


Used one or really have chances for new as well ?

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## Reichmarshal

Do U know who chandra gupta morya was n where he came from to conquer u all ?

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

41st Tactical Wing ‘Sherdils’ No. 19 F-16 training squadron

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## Trailer23

*First image of the all-new Block 70 for the Royal Bahrain Air Force.*






@Talon​@araz @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal. @Irfan Baloch @LeGenD @SQ8 @waz @Windjammer @ARMalik @Clairvoyant @Falcon26 @FuturePAF @Ghessan @GriffinsRule @GumNaam @HRK @HAIDER @Hakikat ve Hikmet @iLION12345_1 @khansaheeb @kursed @mingle @Mrc @PakFactor @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PanzerKiel @PWFI @Rafi @Riz @SABRE @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @TheSnakeEatingMarkhur @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tipu7 @Tps43 @Viper27 @Vortex @White and Green with M/S @Yasser76 @Zarvan @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar @PakSword @Super Falcon @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan

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## Dreamer.

Trailer23 said:


> *First image of the all-new Block 70 for the Royal Bahrain Air Force.*
> 
> View attachment 899604
> 
> 
> @Talon​@araz @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Bilal. @Irfan Baloch @LeGenD @SQ8 @waz @Windjammer @ARMalik @Clairvoyant @Falcon26 @FuturePAF @Ghessan @GriffinsRule @GumNaam @HRK @HAIDER @Hakikat ve Hikmet @iLION12345_1 @khansaheeb @kursed @mingle @Mrc @PakFactor @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PanzerKiel @PWFI @Rafi @Riz @SABRE @Shane @Signalian @Stealth @StormBreaker @TheSnakeEatingMarkhur @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tipu7 @Tps43 @Viper27 @Vortex @White and Green with M/S @Yasser76 @Zarvan @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar @PakSword @Super Falcon @PradoTLC @khail007 @War Thunder @ZedZeeshan


Nice. 
And It's ok to post irrelevant picture here since I'm sure there was no other place on entire forum where this picture belonged.

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## Trailer23

Dreamer. said:


> Nice.
> And It's ok to post irrelevant picture here since I'm sure there was no other place on entire forum where this picture belonged.


You know it's funny 'cause usually people get a Warning, Negative Rating or get Hanged out to dry. 

But I still do it -' cause I get special preferential treatment.

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## Dreamer.

Trailer23 said:


> But I still do it -' cause I get special preferential treatment.


And why not? Seeing an F-Sola is always good for the soul. And absolutely amazing when it's a brand spanking new Block-70! No matter who it belongs to, we are all F-16 brothers.

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## Dreamer.

Reichmarshal said:


> Do U know who chandra gupta morya was n where he came from to conquer u all ?


Who was he?


----------



## HAIDER



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## Super Falcon

What about their kill switches


----------



## Sinnerman108

Super Falcon said:


> What about their kill switches



Before people come yanking lets look at an incidence a few decades ago.

A saudi pilot defected to Sudan with a F-15. 

the moment that happened it was the Americans who alerted authorities. 

Guess how ?

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## Super Falcon

Sinnerman108 said:


> Before people come yanking lets look at an incidence a few decades ago.
> 
> A saudi pilot defected to Sudan with a F-15.
> 
> the moment that happened it was the Americans who alerted authorities.
> 
> Guess how ?


Still don't get it


----------



## Sinnerman108

Super Falcon said:


> Still don't get it



Let me simplify:

to claim there are no kill switches / monitoring mechanisms is to suggest that Americans are stupid. 

They are not stupid.

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## MastanKhan

Sinnerman108 said:


> Let me simplify:
> 
> to claim there are no kill switches / monitoring mechanisms is to suggest that Americans are stupid.
> 
> They are not stupid.


Hi,

I never thought pakistan kids could be that stupid in understanding " kill switches ".

It is the US law---passed by the congress on or about 2007.

Every aircraft *OF ANY NATION* flying into the US---passenger aircraft---personal aircraft or otherwise---or any US aircraft has to have " a flight control switch " that can terminate the flight as needed thru data link.

I had a system in 1975 in pakistan that I could shut off power to certain cylinders of a car by the flip of a switch and make the car not worthy of driving---.

That was a manual " Kill switch "---.

Those kill switches have advanced to electronic switches that can be triggered thru a program in the system or thru data link.

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## Raider 21

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I never thought pakistan kids could be that stupid in understanding " kill switches ".
> 
> It is the US law---passed by the congress on or about 2007.
> 
> Every aircraft *OF ANY NATION* flying into the US---passenger aircraft---personal aircraft or otherwise---or any US aircraft has to have " a flight control switch " that can terminate the flight as needed thru data link.
> 
> I had a system in 1975 in pakistan that I could shut off power to certain cylinders of a car by the flip of a switch and make the car not worthy of driving---.
> 
> That was a manual " Kill switch "---.
> 
> Those kill switches have advanced to electronic switches that can be triggered thru a program in the system or thru data link.


ACARS, FANS, ATSU or via CPDLC. Which one Mastan?


----------



## Jango

HAIDER said:


> View attachment 899848



Since when did this change come about?

Till a few years back the female officers still had to wear normal coverall.


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Arrows

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## ghazi52

,.,..
Their duty was to serve. It’s our duty to remember ...

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## Windjammer

Designed and dressed and has delivered to destroy the Aggressors.

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## Bratva

ghazi52 said:


> ,.,..
> Their duty was to serve. It’s our duty to remember ...
> 
> View attachment 900414



His death was his own fault. @PanzerKiel said he was under pressure for some internal audits he was going through and that made him distracted and the distraction caused his life

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## Abramar

Bratva said:


> His death was his own fault. @PanzerKiel said he was under pressure for some internal audits he was going through and that made him distracted and the distraction caused his life


No one asked.

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## Trailer23

Jango said:


> Since when did this change come about?
> 
> Till a few years back the female officers still had to wear normal coverall.


This is a very old image & she is from the Engineering Wing.

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## Raider 21

Bratva said:


> His death was his own fault. @PanzerKiel said he was under pressure for some internal audits he was going through and that made him distracted and the distraction caused his life


A clear example of where these hard working individuals doing extraordinary work are still human to crash when fatigue creeps in. In essence, his crash was not only a mistake of his own wrongdoing but the air force's system had an effect in getting one of their own best ones killed.



Trailer23 said:


> This is a very old image & she is from the Engineering Wing.


2010 days. Red & Green Flag at Nellis.

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## MastanKhan

Bratva said:


> *His death was his own fault*. @PanzerKiel said he was under pressure for some internal audits he was going through and that made him distracted and the distraction caused his life


Hi,

Really---and I was crucified ( did I care ) on this forum for saying that on day one---. Got BANNED from that thread---.

The moment I heard about it---I knew what had happened---. Because an F16 in the US had a similar fate a few years back under similar circumstances---.



Raider 21 said:


> A clear example of where these hard working individuals doing extraordinary work are still human to crash when fatigue creeps in. In essence, his crash was not only a mistake of his own wrongdoing but the air force's system had an effect in getting one of their own best ones killed.
> 
> 
> 2010 days. Red & Green Flag at Nellis.


Hi,

terrain---terrain---terrain---it creeps up so fast.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A pair of Pakistan Air Force Lockheed-Martin F-16C Fighting Falcon Block 52 multirole fighter aircraft, out on a training sortie.

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## Trailer23



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## Abid123

How many F-16 does PAF have in service today?


----------



## Imran Khan

Abid123 said:


> How many F-16 does PAF have in service today?


how can open forum knows such answer when even only few in PAF know this .


----------



## ziaulislam

Abid123 said:


> How many F-16 does PAF have in service today?



Open knowledge
76


----------



## Abid123

ziaulislam said:


> Open knowledge
> 76


Any chance of upgrading all of them to F-16V?


----------



## ziaulislam

Abid123 said:


> Any chance of upgrading all of them to F-16V?


No.
No money no clearance


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A Pakistani F-16 with laser-guided bombs. Precision strikes on terrorist targets have been the hallmark of a good COIN strategy, as shown during the war on terror. The ability to strike fear into the hearts of militants will always be an extremely effective deterrent.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

F-16D Block 52

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

F-16BM Fighting Falcon (401) Drops two 2000lb GBU-10 Bombs.

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## White privilege

Another man's _(read: PAF) _treasure, perhaps.....😁😄





Is F-16 retirement coming in 2025? Wasn't the F-16XL better choice?







bulgarianmilitary.com


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAF F-16C Block-52+ will its full Air Superiority Might Many think biggest strength of F-16 is its AMRAAM capability. Whereas, actual strength lies in its aircrew interface which enables Viper Drivers the best info management & data link integration in the region

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Viper on a training sortie with his wingman

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Arrows

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

F16 Getting Loaded

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## Windjammer



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## araz

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 905230


Windy Bhai.
Is all the US Arse licking going to get us anything of the flying variety or not?
A


----------



## Jango

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> F-16BM Fighting Falcon (401) Drops two 2000lb GBU-10 Bombs.
> View attachment 902691



Interesting configuration on the canopy there 

Don't think I have never seen it like that. Any disadvantages to this?

@gambit , @SQ8


----------



## gambit

Jango said:


> Interesting configuration on the canopy there
> 
> Don't think I have never seen it like that. Any disadvantages to this?
> 
> @gambit , @SQ8


Looks like the standard B/D twin cockpits canopy.

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## SQ8

gambit said:


> Looks like the standard B/D twin cockpits canopy.


I think the angle makes it look like it has two different tints

New model being released
Anyone up for it @Windjammer 
PAF F-16B 1/72 84606 “Su-30 killer”

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## Jango

SQ8 said:


> I think the angle makes it look like it has two different tints
> 
> New model being released
> Anyone up for it @Windjammer
> PAF F-16B 1/72 84606 “Su-30 killer”



Yeah perhaps the lighting is playing games here.

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## Signalian

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 905230


SEAD for F-16s, interesting


----------



## Windjammer

araz said:


> Windy Bhai.
> Is all the US Arse licking going to get us anything of the flying variety or not?
> A


Dear, i wish we would make our mind up.
The Belgian C-130s arrived out of the blue ....let's see what transpires out of the rollercoaster.

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## gambit

SQ8 said:


> I think the angle makes it look like it has two different tints
> 
> New model being released
> Anyone up for it @Windjammer
> PAF F-16B 1/72 84606 “Su-30 killer”


Aaahhh...When I was at MacDill, we did received some canopies where only the front seater had tint. Not because of anything tactical but because the manufacturer was pressed for delivery. It was one of those bureaucratic accounting reasons.

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## Trailer23

SQ8 said:


> New model being released
> Anyone up for it @Windjammer
> PAF F-16B 1/72 84606 “Su-30 killer”


Both are being released, Sir. Bison Killer too.

But, they'll be released in August 2023.

A bit over USD $100/- for each.


Trailer23 said:


> I often visit Hobby Stores in Prague & Warsaw every second month, and have seen a few models from Hobby Master
> 
> BTW, these aren't cheap either.
> 
> I have a few resin kits of my own, but usually go for Revell or AirFix. Those are well known brands, but stuff from Hobby Master is usually out of my budget.
> 
> And its not just the Su-30MKi Killer (available). *The Bison Killer is is also on the block...*
> 
> These are on pre-order & won't be available till *August 2023*.
> 
> *USD $110.99/-*
> 
> View attachment 905333
> 
> 
> *USD $114.99*
> View attachment 905334​
> @Windjammer


----------



## SQ8

Signalian said:


> SEAD for F-16s, interesting


Not Pakistan’s- TuAF and their vipers carry HARMs

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## Readerdefence

SQ8 said:


> Not Pakistan’s- TuAF and their vipers carry HARMs


Hi to me pilot not even Tuaf probably not even Pakistani 
usually Tuaf pilots are fair skin dont take my sentence as a racism coz fingers out of glove resemble With darker skin colour 
thank you


----------



## SQ8

Readerdefence said:


> Hi to me pilot not even Tuaf probably not even Pakistani
> usually Tuaf pilots are fair skin dont take my sentence as a racism coz fingers out of glove resemble With darker skin colour
> thank you


It is also possible it is a Pakistani pilot taking a checkride and given a patch as a souvenir

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## Reichmarshal

Readerdefence said:


> Hi to me pilot not even Tuaf probably not even Pakistani
> usually Tuaf pilots are fair skin dont take my sentence as a racism coz fingers out of glove resemble With darker skin colour
> thank you


In Pakistan u find all types of skins.......lots of "faired skin" ppl here.


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A PAF Viper Driver once quoted "If you take out Link-16 from F-16, you lose about 50% of the jets combat capability" Munitions & Aerodynamic Performance are no more game changers, the actual secret lies in the data fusion and sharing capabilities of a fighter jet.

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## Readerdefence

Reichmarshal said:


> In Pakistan u find all types of skins.......lots of "faired skin" ppl here.


Hi so basically you might be backing me about the pilot
identity coz my thought is he is not a Pakistani pilot, can be a Qatari or Saudi pilot with Sudanese background 
what’s your take
thank you


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Falcons heading back to their eyrie.




Shot from the F-16 HUD as it taxis back to its nest after a routine sortie.

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## LeGenD

_Pakistan has heavily relied on the Falcon, too. Pakistani operators used the F-16 during the Soviet-Afghan War – shooting down Su-22s, Mig-23s, and An-26s; Pakistan flew over 5,500 F-16 sorties against the Taliban; more recently, the Pakistanis have used the F-16 to shoot down Indian aircraft, including a UAV, a Mig-21, and a SU-30MKI, during skirmishes over Kashmir. _









F-16 Block 70: The Best Fighter Not Named F-35?


The F-16 Fighting Falcon has been a workhorse of the United States Air Force for nearly fifty years. The F-16 Block 70 is simply amazing.




www.19fortyfive.com

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A Pakistan Air Force female F-16 fighter pilot

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## Talon

Windjammer said:


> View attachment 905230


Exchange Patch..

Pilot and aircraft are Pakistani while the patch belongs to 151 Filo Vultures of Turaf

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Falcon Friday

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## Horse_Rider

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> PAF F-16C Block-52+ will its full Air Superiority Might Many think biggest strength of F-16 is its AMRAAM capability. Whereas, actual strength lies in its aircrew interface which enables Viper Drivers the best info management & data link integration in the region
> View attachment 903513



That's a scary beast! Such pictures put the SU-30 and Mirage pilots an extreme unease across the border.


----------



## syed_yusuf

Horse_Rider said:


> That's a scary beast! Such pictures put the SU-30 and Mirage pilots an extreme unease across the border.


really .... how so


----------



## White privilege

Do we have some sort of American imposed *restriction* on acquiring a system that may used to refuel our Vipers mid-air ??


----------



## Horse_Rider

syed_yusuf said:


> really .... how so



That's honestly a question? Read up on Feb events. Read up on a whole squadron of the IAF refusing to fly against the PAF and read up on their Mirgae-2000's calling "technical failures" in radars when asked to get into combat with the PAF. It's this loadout that scares them. Not the picture of an F-16. And if you are about to troll the thread, I'd suggest you don't do that.

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## syed_yusuf

Horse_Rider said:


> That's honestly a question? Read up on Feb events. Read up on a whole squadron of the IAF refusing to fly against the PAF and read up on their Mirgae-2000's calling "technical failures" in radars when asked to get into combat with the PAF. It's this loadout that scares them. Not the picture of an F-16. And if you are about to troll the thread, I'd suggest you don't do that.


i am not trolling ,,, but with current situation of the country, total neglect of local people wishes, these toys are only toys and will not matter in real terms. the IAF squadron refusing to fight is expected, noting new. specially when they have equal or inferior technology they run with the tail in between. my point is, all these military equipment needs [beside training] , economy, and political stability as well as political will. and currently we lack it all .

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## Horse_Rider

syed_yusuf said:


> i am not trolling ,,, but with current situation of the country, total neglect of local people wishes, these toys are only toys and will not matter in real terms. the IAF squadron refusing to fight is expected, noting new. specially when they have equal or inferior technology they run with the tail in between. my point is, all these military equipment needs [beside training] , economy, and political stability as well as political will. and currently we lack it all .y



So what was the issue behind messaging me when you are repeating what I stated? And yet, you questioned my post by saying "why and how so? This threads name if "F-16 Discussion", not politics, economy or other b.s. Why don't you open a separate thread for all that?

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## araz

Horse_Rider said:


> So what was the issue behind messaging me when you are repeating what I stated? And yet, you questioned my post by saying "why and how so? This threads name if "F-16 Discussion", not politics, economy or other b.s. Why don't you open a separate thread for all that?


I think the objection of the IAF pilots stemmed as much from the prevailing air environment with comprehensive jamming as well as inferior equipment. Going up in that environment would hace been suicidal. I dont think we should blame them. The failure lies with the IAF in the delays in their upgrade plans and the babus who are more interested in backhanders than fulfilling the needs of the forces. They were employed to fight not to become fodder for enemy forces.
A


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## Windjammer



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Caution : Once the PAF is activated, there will be no surrender, no negotiations, no boundaries, there will be only death for the bloody miscreants!

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## Ghessan

araz said:


> I think the objection of the IAF pilots stemmed as much from the prevailing air environment with comprehensive jamming as well as inferior equipment. Going up in that environment would hace been suicidal. I dont think we should blame them. The failure lies with the IAF in the delays in their upgrade plans and the babus who are more interested in backhanders than fulfilling the needs of the forces. They were employed to fight not to become fodder for enemy forces.
> A


i agree to it but i think it must be added that IAF did not expect PAF would give them surprise this huge. 

had they knew and if it is true that pilots were reluctant to throw themselves in such dense environment in operation SR, there would not be a Balakot strike or they planned it better and hence may be hit the targets.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

All The Aircraft Used By the No9 Squadron"Griffins" of Pakistan Air Force.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Ali_Baba

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


>



Come dude - Please(!) - NO DCS pictures !!


----------



## ghazi52

*ACE of PAF*​
Aviation Enthusiast Community all set to celebrate 40 Years Anniversary of F-16 Fighting Falcon in #PakistanAirForce . We hope to see some befitting tribute from @DGPR_PAF on the occasion.
On 15 Jan 1983, first 6x F-16 landed at Sargodha Air Base (Now Mushaf AB)

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## MastanKhan

Hi,

For those fools who do not believe in KILL SWITCHES---they are coming into all US vehicles shortly---.









Law Will Install Kill Switches In All New Cars


Once again, drivers get screwed by politicians in DC…




www.yahoo.com





.*According to an article written by former U.S. Representative Bob Barr, hidden away in the recently passed infrastructure bill, the very one I warned before would negatively impact drivers across the country if it were to pass, is a measure to install vehicle kill switches into every new car, truck, and SUV sold in this country. The regulation likely won’t be enforced for five years, so maybe there’s time to do something about this.*

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## SQ8

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For those fools who do not believe in KILL SWITCHES---they are coming into all US vehicles shortly---.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Law Will Install Kill Switches In All New Cars
> 
> 
> Once again, drivers get screwed by politicians in DC…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .*According to an article written by former U.S. Representative Bob Barr, hidden away in the recently passed infrastructure bill, the very one I warned before would negatively impact drivers across the country if it were to pass, is a measure to install vehicle kill switches into every new car, truck, and SUV sold in this country. The regulation likely won’t be enforced for five years, so maybe there’s time to do something about this.*


They don’t exist - at least not in the sense of this - in the F-16 AM/BMs Pakistan has. In their case it is locked in IFF that will not target American aircraft unless simply not powered on. 
The F-16C/Ds are another matter and their systems(because of their extremely advanced nature) can be reduced in effectiveness via particular transmissions based on OEM kit or by mission module.

Pity for those that buy the F-35 thinking they can ever use it against American interests - we can shut that baby off to fall from the sky if we want to.

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## PakFactor

SQ8 said:


> They don’t exist - at least not in the sense of this - in the F-16 AM/BMs Pakistan has. In their case it is locked in IFF that will not target American aircraft unless simply not powered on.
> The F-16C/Ds are another matter and their systems(because of their extremely advanced nature) can be reduced in effectiveness via particular transmissions based on OEM kit or by mission module.
> 
> Pity for those that buy the F-35 thinking they can ever use it against American interests - we can shut that baby off to fall from the sky if we want to.



Either way, the effectiveness of the weapon is reduced. So let's call it something else rather than "kill switch," as the word "kill" gets more attention than a poster is trying to convey.

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## MastanKhan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> For those fools who do not believe in KILL SWITCHES---they are coming into all US vehicles shortly---.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Law Will Install Kill Switches In All New Cars
> 
> 
> Once again, drivers get screwed by politicians in DC…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.yahoo.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .*According to an article written by former U.S. Representative Bob Barr, hidden away in the recently passed infrastructure bill, the very one I warned before would negatively impact drivers across the country if it were to pass, is a measure to install vehicle kill switches into every new car, truck, and SUV sold in this country. The regulation likely won’t be enforced for five years, so maybe there’s time to do something about this.*


Hi,

The 'shortly' target is about 5 years from now---.

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## Trango Towers

SQ8 said:


> They don’t exist - at least not in the sense of this - in the F-16 AM/BMs Pakistan has. In their case it is locked in IFF that will not target American aircraft unless simply not powered on.
> The F-16C/Ds are another matter and their systems(because of their extremely advanced nature) can be reduced in effectiveness via particular transmissions based on OEM kit or by mission module.
> 
> Pity for those that buy the F-35 thinking they can ever use it against American interests - we can shut that baby off to fall from the sky if we want to.


As people realise this what do u think is the future of American defence sales?

Ummmm nice own goal


----------



## Raider 21

SQ8 said:


> They don’t exist - at least not in the sense of this - in the F-16 AM/BMs Pakistan has. In their case it is locked in IFF that will not target American aircraft unless simply not powered on.
> The F-16C/Ds are another matter and their systems(because of their extremely advanced nature) can be reduced in effectiveness via particular transmissions based on OEM kit or by mission module.
> 
> Pity for those that buy the F-35 thinking they can ever use it against American interests - we can shut that baby off to fall from the sky if we want to.


And to think that these only exist in American aircraft. I know an Emirati Mirage 2000 pilot who evaluated the Rafale program for over 5 years. One of the primary delays was due to the equivalent of "kill switches" placed by the French in their export versions of the aircraft.

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## Trango Towers

Raider 21 said:


> And to think that these only exist in American aircraft. I know an Emirati Mirage 2000 pilot who evaluated the Rafale program for over 5 years. One of the primary delays was due to the equivalent of "kill switches" placed by the French in their export versions of the aircraft.


Then I guess going forward the west will have trouble selling weapons

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## Windjammer



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## Sanwal!!

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The 'shortly' target is about 5 years from now---.


We can also add the geo-fencing function. People are extremely naive to think that there are no back door entrances and/or kill switches on anything provided by the Empire (new or old).

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## Raider 21

Trango Towers said:


> Then I guess going forward the west will have trouble selling weapons


The East masters will also come out or may even have some sort of "kill" switches or bugs or trackers in place. I know we in Canada do it irrespective of aircraft or flight simulators.

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## Bleek

Raider 21 said:


> And to think that these only exist in American aircraft. I know an Emirati Mirage 2000 pilot who evaluated the Rafale program for over 5 years. One of the primary delays was due to the equivalent of "kill switches" placed by the French in their export versions of the aircraft.


The Chinese probably also have the same in our J-10Cs and JF-17s.



Windjammer said:


> View attachment 908844


Is this DCS?


----------



## Trango Towers

Bleek said:


> The Chinese probably also have the same in our J-10Cs and JF-17s.
> 
> 
> Is this DCS?


I doubt it. China and Pakistan has a common enemy. Jf17 is primarily owned by Pakistan with 58% share if I am correct


----------



## Signalian

Raider 21 said:


> And to think that these only exist in American aircraft. I know an Emirati Mirage 2000 pilot who evaluated the Rafale program for over 5 years. One of the primary delays was due to the equivalent of "kill switches" placed by the French in their export versions of the aircraft.


AM/BM are upgraded ones in the same timeline of Block 52+, wouldn't the software upgrades, OEM kit or module allow an external interference ?


----------



## Bleek

Trango Towers said:


> I doubt it. China and Pakistan has a common enemy. Jf17 is primarily owned by Pakistan with 58% share if I am correct


Nah China is intelligent, at the very least it won't be able to target Chinese aircraft


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## MastanKhan

Trango Towers said:


> I doubt it. China and Pakistan has a common enemy. Jf17 is primarily owned by Pakistan with 58% share if I am correct


Hi,

I believe the share now is100% pakistan's after china decided to pursue the J-10's---.

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## CivilianSupremacy

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> I believe the share now is100% pakistan's after china decided to pursue the J-10's---.



The program started with 50-50% shares on ownership and no official news came that it ever changed later. The 58% figure was about airframe manufacturing and that may have gone higher by now. A kill switch in F-16s, Rafales, F-35s (most likely) is possible. For Jf-17s its not possible since PAF is co-owner and secondly the aircraft is manufactured here and if ever PAC found out such thing it would be devastating for relationship and shatter the trust. Why would china ever do that. Makes zero sense.

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## Trango Towers

Bleek said:


> Nah China is intelligent, at the very least it won't be able to target Chinese aircraft


Why would there be problems between China and paksitan ??


----------



## Bleek

Trango Towers said:


> Why would there be problems between China and paksitan ??


There wouldn't, incredibly unlikely

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## Windjammer

Bleek said:


> Is this DCS?


No, it was taken during Red Flag Exercise.

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## MastanKhan

CivilianSupremacy said:


> The program started with 50-50% shares on ownership and no official news came that it ever changed later. The 58% figure was about airframe manufacturing and that may have gone higher by now. A kill switch in F-16s, Rafales, F-35s (most likely) is possible. For Jf-17s its not possible since PAF is co-owner and secondly the aircraft is manufactured here and if ever PAC found out such thing it would be devastating for relationship and shatter the trust. Why would china ever do that. Makes zero sense.


Hi,

Any & every machine that has a DATA LINK options will have PEROFRMANCE ADJUSTMENT / PERFORMANCE CONTROL ( kill switch ) ability---.

In the early 2000---the US was working on enemy or otherwise bvr missiles that are guided thru data link---to break into the ECU electronically ---take control of the missile in flight and re-direct the missile back at the enemy---.

Sounds far fetched---doesn't it---but when it happens---that will be an oh sh-it moment---.

Just remember to tell your children who told you that---.

As for the JF17---it is all Paf's now---.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A Pakistani F-16C Block 52+ with AN/AAQ-33 Sniper EO/IR laser designator and targeting pod.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Pakistan retains unhindered access to Afghanistan’s airspace, and will not hesitate to strike out the TTP’s terror camps at the time and place of our choosing.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> No, it was taken during Red Flag Exercise.


No PAF Viper Block 15 A-models were flown over to Red Flags. That is likely somewhere else.


----------



## GriffinsRule

Raider 21 said:


> No PAF Viper Block 15 A-models were flown over to Red Flags. That is likely somewhere else.


Its most likely over Turkey


----------



## Clairvoyant

Windjammer said:


> No, it was taken during Red Flag Exercise.



Anatolian Eagle exercise.


----------



## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

F-16C/D Block 52+ in ship formation




Moments like these create the best memories for pilots & even momentarily forget the demand for constant attention, perseverance & stamina needed during the close formation on mighty Vipers.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Bholari Boys......

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Pakistan Air Force F-16D Block 52 equipped with 2x GBU-24 Paveway III laser-guided bombs standing combat-ready on an operational AFB. Our enemies wanna play rough so let's play rough!!!!!

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## blain2

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Pakistan retains unhindered access to Afghanistan’s airspace, and will not hesitate to strike out the TTP’s terror camps at the time and place of our choosing.


Keep in mind why Pakistan does not exercise this option. Taliban cannot do anything to stop Pakistan but by doing so Pakistan opens up a precedence for others to do the same against us.

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## Corax

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Bholari Boys......



Looks very dusty, will need to keep an eye on engine blade wear and FOD damage.

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## Windjammer



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## Windjammer



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## ghazi52

,.,.

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## ghazi52

First to land...
Air Marshal A Rashid Sheikh greeting AVM ShahidLatif, the pilot of 1st F-16.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Viper 717, the Sukhoi Slayer

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAF F-16D Block 52+ clicked prior to delivery, aircraft is equipped with DB-110 reconnaissance pod

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## DrWatson775

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Viper 717, the Sukhoi Slayer



Wasn't that a 2 seater?


----------



## Thrust_Vector998

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> Viper 717, the Sukhoi Slayer


It was 606


----------



## ghazi52

.,.,

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## ghazi52

The Legendary Ace M.M. Alam evaluating F-16 Fighting Falcon for Pakistan Air Force......

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## Imran Khan

ghazi52 said:


> The Legendary Ace M.M. Alam evaluating F-16 Fighting Falcon for Pakistan Air Force......


wow wow wow

i thought he was gone long before f-16  he was retired in 1982 and PAF got first f-16 in 1984 .

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## MastanKhan

Imran Khan said:


> wow wow wow
> 
> i thought he was gone long before f-16  he was retired in 1982 and PAF got first f-16 in 1984 .


Hi,

The evaluation took place a few years before retirement---.

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## Ali_Baba

ghazi52 said:


> The Legendary Ace M.M. Alam evaluating F-16 Fighting Falcon for Pakistan Air Force......



Wow - good find - thanks for posting that - news to me he flew the F16.

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## ghazi52

*Peace Gate 1*
In December 1981, the government of Pakistan signed a letter of agreement for the purchase of up to 40 F-16A/B (28 F-16A and 12 F-16B) fighters for the _Pakistan Fiza'ya_ (Pakistan Air Force, or PAF). The deal would be split into two batches, one of 6 aircraft and the other of 34. The first aircraft were accepted at Fort Worth in October of 1982, and the first F-16, flown by Squadron Leader Shahid Javed, landed in Pakistan at Sargodha Air Base on* January 15th, 1983* as part of a package of 6 'Peace Gate I' aircraft (2 A's and 4 B's).

40 Years...
*January 15th, 1983 - January 15th, 2023



*

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## Imran Khan

MastanKhan said:


> Hi,
> 
> The evaluation took place a few years before retirement---.


*آپ کب سے ہم کمی کمینوں کے خیر خواہ ہو گئے ؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟*


----------



## Windjammer

Imran Khan said:


> wow wow wow
> 
> i thought he was gone long before f-16  he was retired in 1982 and PAF got first f-16 in 1984 .


He was sent to US to evaluate the F-16 in early 80s.








Thrust_Vector998 said:


> It was 606


True that, the victory kill markings clearly visible.

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## MastanKhan

Imran Khan said:


> *آپ کب سے ہم کمی کمینوں کے خیر خواہ ہو گئے ؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟؟*


Hi,

I am surprised that you did not about about his assessment of the F16---.


----------



## Windjammer

AVM Jamal Khan, who later became PAF Boss and legendry MM Alam, evaluating the Fighting Falcon in the early 80s.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

You see me, you are dead already!

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Griffins red tail Formation, mix of Peace Gate I/II/III/IV

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

"Always on a Killing Spree"

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## ghazi52

,.,.,.
AVM Jamal Ahmed Khan in cockpit of F-16 during evaluations. Carswell AFB, Texas.
24th July 1981.
Jamal rose to become CAS PAF in 1985.

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## ghazi52

,.,.
F-16 remains one of the three still in service fighter aircraft in subcontinent with multiple air to air victories, other two being PAF Mirage III and IAF MiG-21 ,,,
40 years young...
... Cagataayniz

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## ghazi52

.,.,..

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## Reichmarshal

Windjammer said:


> AVM Jamal Khan, who later became PAF Boss and legendry MM Alam, evaluating the Fighting Falcon in the early 80s.
> 
> View attachment 910242


SJ bar and SJ

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## Windjammer



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## Reichmarshal

Windjammer said:


> AVM Jamal Khan, who later became PAF Boss and legendry MM Alam, evaluating the Fighting Falcon in the early 80s.
> 
> View attachment 910242


That would have been one damn tough evolution exercise.
No wonder the requirements/setup that the PAF wanted to be incorporated into its fleet of the f16 of GD was very impressive at the time so impressive the usaf also incorporated them in its own subsequent batches

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## ghazi52

.,.,

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## Windjammer

Reichmarshal said:


> That would have been one damn tough evolution exercise.
> No wonder the requirements/setup that the PAF wanted to be incorporated into its fleet of the f16 of GD was very impressive at the time so impressive the usaf also incorporated them in its own subsequent batches


The first batch that landed in Saudi Arab were initially refused by the PAF as it was found that they were incorporating a less capable radar, the aircraft remained there until they were fitted with the APG-68.

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## TopGun786

Ali_Baba said:


> Wow - good find - thanks for posting that - news to me he flew the F16.


Same here. This is first time I saw this picture and come to know about the legend that he also evaluated F-16.


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Falcon doing some wacky maneuvers over Northern Pakistan.

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## Reichmarshal

Windjammer said:


> The first batch that landed in Saudi Arab were initially refused by the PAF as it was found that they were incorporating a less capable radar, the aircraft remained there until they were fitted with the APG-68.


MM Alam either evaluated or was from the first batch that went to France for the conversion course for the mirage.

Do u know if he had a role in the induction of the f 6 as well ?


----------



## Windjammer

Reichmarshal said:


> MM Alam either evaluated or was from the first batch that went to France for the conversion course for the mirage.
> 
> Do u know if he had a role in the induction of the f 6 as well ?


I think F-6 was a personal intervention and choice of the then ACM Nur Khan.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Kill list of PAF F-16 Fighting Falcons
4x Su-22 
1x Su-25 
2x Mig-23MLD
2x An-26 
1x An-24 
1x Searcher II UAV 
1x Mig-21 Bison 
1x Su-30MKI

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Good Morning Folks!

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## ghazi52

.,.,.

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## ghazi52

.,.,
PAF's Ex-RJAF F-16B Block 15 ADF from No. 19 OCU/ MR Squadron Sherdils touches down after sortie over Arabian Sea.

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## AeroEngineer

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,.







A pen and ink rendition of A. Mateen’s action shot.

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> The first batch that landed in Saudi Arab were initially refused by the PAF as it was found that they were incorporating a less capable radar, the aircraft remained there until they were fitted with the APG-68.


The first batch had landed at Saudi with them staying a few days following a handover over to PAF pilots to ferry them to Pakistan.

APG-66 radar was used at the time, APG-68 first entered PAF service in 2010.

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## ghazi52

,.,.,.
F-16BM on short finals with Dual JHMCS and Air Marshal on board ...
Awais Lali

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## Windjammer

Raider 21 said:


> The first batch had landed at Saudi with them staying a few days following a handover over to PAF pilots to ferry them to Pakistan.
> 
> APG-66 radar was used at the time, APG-68 first entered PAF service in 2010.


There was no social media back in those days, remember reading it in the Jang newspaper something to the effect that F-16s are stranded in KSA as PAF is refusing to accept them due to them having less capable radar than the standard one. Some aviation magazine also said that first transatlantic experience for a few PAF pilots as some of them flew as GIBS from Fort Worth.

—---——---------------------------------------
PAF F-16 C/D Block-52 Vipers, formating on a USAF KC-135 Stratotanker for refueling during the Red Flag Exercise.

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## ghazi52

.,.,
Which one of them is your favorite??? 
For me it's Griffins.

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## WiderMan

ghazi52 said:


> .,.,..



My picture. Thank you for sharing.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE



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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

A beautiful shot of PAF F-16 deployed at Konya, Turkiye for Anatolian Eagle International Exercise 2022. Compatibility of F-16s enabled PAF to participate in various international exercises, thus bringing in valuable training and tactics.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

PAF F-16 Fighting Falcon Head-to-Head with an F-15 Eagle.

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Toothless viper

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## Raider 21

Windjammer said:


> There was no social media back in those days, remember reading it in the Jang newspaper something to the effect that F-16s are stranded in KSA as PAF is refusing to accept them due to them having less capable radar than the standard one. *Some aviation magazine also said that first transatlantic experience for a few PAF pilots as some of them flew as GIBS from Fort Worth.*
> 
> —---——---------------------------------------
> PAF F-16 C/D Block-52 Vipers, formating on a USAF KC-135 Stratotanker for refueling during the Red Flag Exercise.
> 
> View attachment 910459


Negative about the transatlantic flight, that was done with the Block 52+ deliveries. The Block 15s first batch were flown over with GD & USAF pilots to Saudi Arabia for Peace Gate I, and then it was handed over to PAF pilots. 

Also, fantastic picture. Looks like a capture from a video.

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## ghazi52

.,.,.,

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## CSAW

EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. — During a Dec. 9 flight over the Mojave Desert, an Air Force pilot handed control of a special, highly-modified F-16 over to an artificial intelligence system that autonomously piloted the plane. Less than two hours later, that same F-16 took to the skies again for a second flight test of a completely different AI.

With those first two flights, the Air Force has now unlocked a new capability that will allow the service to rapidly flight test autonomy software regardless of which organization or company has developed it, make quick improvements to the algorithms based on the results of that testing, and then reload the AI and fly again within a matter of hours.

Such is the power of the X-62A — also known as the NF-16D Variable In-flight Simulator Aircraft, or more simply as VISTA — a bespoke version of the F-16D that has been flying since the 1990s but recently was upgraded to be a testbed for different autonomy software cores.






With AI still a nascent technology, VISTA’s ability to churn through flight tests could be critical for the Air Force. The service could begin a program of record for a Collaborative Combat Aircraft, its term for an autonomous combat drone, as early as fiscal 2024, Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall said in September. With plans to field CCA drones in the mid to late 2020s,the service will need to do everything in its power to drive out risk and prove that drones can safely and effectively be controlled by AI.

“I can fly the [X-62A] aircraft twice a day,” said Chris Cotting, director of research for the Air Force Test Pilot School, which owns the X-62. “If I want to change something, I just go out to the aircraft and change it, and then the aircraft itself acts as its own ground simulator. So I can very rapidly change software.”










Inside the special F-16 the Air Force is using to test out AI - Breaking Defense


With AI still a nascent technology, VISTA's ability to churn through flight tests could be critical for the Air Force as it looks to start a Collaborative Combat Aircraft program as early as fiscal 2024.




breakingdefense.com





----------------------------------------------------

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1609004635368427521

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1609245614499405827

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## DrWatson775

CSAW said:


> EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. — During a Dec. 9 flight over the Mojave Desert, an Air Force pilot handed control of a special, highly-modified F-16 over to an artificial intelligence system that autonomously piloted the plane. Less than two hours later, that same F-16 took to the skies again for a second flight test of a completely different AI.
> 
> With those first two flights, the Air Force has now unlocked a new capability that will allow the service to rapidly flight test autonomy software regardless of which organization or company has developed it, make quick improvements to the algorithms based on the results of that testing, and then reload the AI and fly again within a matter of hours.
> 
> Such is the power of the X-62A — also known as the NF-16D Variable In-flight Simulator Aircraft, or more simply as VISTA — a bespoke version of the F-16D that has been flying since the 1990s but recently was upgraded to be a testbed for different autonomy software cores.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With AI still a nascent technology, VISTA’s ability to churn through flight tests could be critical for the Air Force. The service could begin a program of record for a Collaborative Combat Aircraft, its term for an autonomous combat drone, as early as fiscal 2024, Air Force Secretary Frank Kendall said in September. With plans to field CCA drones in the mid to late 2020s,the service will need to do everything in its power to drive out risk and prove that drones can safely and effectively be controlled by AI.
> 
> “I can fly the [X-62A] aircraft twice a day,” said Chris Cotting, director of research for the Air Force Test Pilot School, which owns the X-62. “If I want to change something, I just go out to the aircraft and change it, and then the aircraft itself acts as its own ground simulator. So I can very rapidly change software.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Inside the special F-16 the Air Force is using to test out AI - Breaking Defense
> 
> 
> With AI still a nascent technology, VISTA's ability to churn through flight tests could be critical for the Air Force as it looks to start a Collaborative Combat Aircraft program as early as fiscal 2024.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> breakingdefense.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1609004635368427521
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1609245614499405827


Is that an AGM 65? I thought we had spent those or probably expired since the 80s. This must be a new acquisition. 👍


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## Bleek

Can our F-16s deliver nuclear warheads?


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## ghazi52

,.,.,.

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## ghazi52

First Public appearance...





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=619507636841665

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## ghazi52

.,,.,.
Griffins 
📸 HFK

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## ghazi52

.,.,
A great click to cheer you up on this eventful day.
23rd March 2017...
📸 HFK






Shahbaz-1, Air Marshal Sohail Aman's F-16D Block 52+ belonging to 5 MR Squadron Falcons positions behind F-16A/B Block 15 MLU formation from 9 MR Squadron Griffins, ready to dash into parade venue, ..

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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

Bulky Falcons with AMRAAMs and a DB-110 Recce Pod!


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## FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

An F-16A armed with Mk-82s pulls out


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## SQ8

Bleek said:


> Can our F-16s deliver nuclear warheads?


Not after the upgrades

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## Irfan Baloch

Trango Towers said:


> As people realise this what do u think is the future of American defence sales?
> 
> Ummmm nice own goal



the American sales will never be affected by this. Countries line up to have access to American military hardware. the benefits far outweigh this one limitation with is not appecalbe anyway, why would a country dependent on American defense hardware and trade with America would find itself having to fight the Americans? there is only one mad example but its an exception and not the rule.








The second edition of the Peace Drive program, which started in October 2010, was due completion by September 2014. The required parts, materials and technical data was given to TUSAS as part of another contract between the U.S. government and the Pakistani Air Force.
https://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article4885.html

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## PanzerKiel

FOOLS_NIGHTMARE said:


> An F-16A armed with Mk-82s pulls out


Always that bicycle in that background....pure photo-bombing. But then, we also have three great modes of transportation in Pakistan in the same frame (foot, wheeled, air).

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## Trango Towers

Irfan Baloch said:


> the American sales will never be affected by this. Countries line up to have access to American military hardware. the benefits far outweigh this one limitation with is not appecalbe anyway, why would a country dependent on American defense hardware and trade with America would find itself having to fight the Americans? there is only one mad example but its an exception and not the rule.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The second edition of the Peace Drive program, which started in October 2010, was due completion by September 2014. The required parts, materials and technical data was given to TUSAS as part of another contract between the U.S. government and the Pakistani Air Force.
> https://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article4885.html


Things are changing globally. Even the Europeans realise that the Americans are screwing them in Europe WRT gas sales and war in Ukraine. American empire like others before it is now sick and each day its getting worse but nothing will happen in our life time


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## Abid123

Can we upgrade all of our F-16s to viper standard? They could easily serve 2 decades more.


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## MastanKhan

PanzerKiel said:


> Always that bicycle in that background....pure photo-bombing. But then, we also have three great modes of transportation in Pakistan in the same frame (foot, wheeled, air).


Hi,

Yessir---bicycle---an integral part of transportation on an air base.

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## Irfan Baloch

Trango Towers said:


> Things are changing globally. Even the Europeans realise that the Americans are screwing them in Europe WRT gas sales and war in Ukraine. American empire like others before it is now sick and each day its getting worse but nothing will happen in our life time


what we wish is different to what actually happens.
there is no other country strong enough and advanced enough to challenge America or be even close. 
its ok to hate on the top dog but the closest under dog is lights years behind. 

the thread is about world's most successful fighter Jet which PAF has used and humbled both the Communist regime in Soviet Afghanistan and the Indians.
whether Americans are hated or loved and isolated is absolutely irrelevant.

please leave some threads to what they are.

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## MastanKhan

Trango Towers said:


> Things are changing globally. Even the Europeans realise that the Americans are screwing them in Europe WRT gas sales and war in Ukraine. American empire like others before it is now sick and each day its getting worse but nothing will happen in our life time


Hi,

Europe allowed the US to get where it is today---and in the end---europe will pay heavily for that---or otherwise---they will get into indentured "slavery".

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

PanzerKiel said:


> Always that bicycle in that background....pure photo-bombing. But then, we also have three great modes of transportation in Pakistan in the same frame (foot, wheeled, air).


Will ride a bicycle but fly F-16s, JF-17s, J-10Cs, TFXs etc...

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## Hakikat ve Hikmet

Ghessan said:


> i agree to it but i think it must be added that *IAF did not expect PAF would give them surprise this huge.*
> 
> had they knew and if it is true that pilots were reluctant to throw themselves in such dense environment in operation SR, there would not be a Balakot strike or they planned it better and hence may be hit the targets.


I think the PAF's real success lies in "projecting yourself as weak when you're strong and strong when you're weak".......

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## PanzerKiel

Hakikat ve Hikmet said:


> I think the PAF's real success lies in "projecting yourself as weak when you're strong and strong when you're weak".......


Yeah, it sure has some Chinese taste associated with it.

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## White privilege

SQ8 said:


> Not after the upgrades


How can the mission computer "tell" it's a nuke, can it not be made to appear just "another" bomb, that is supposed to be dropped with precision ??


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## SQ8

White privilege said:


> How can the mission computer "tell" it's a nuke, can it not be made to appear just "another" bomb, that is supposed to be dropped with precision ??


Nope - there was a piece of equipment that is needed to activate the weapon which can no longer be put in there.

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## Sayfullah

SQ8 said:


> Nope - there was a piece of equipment that is needed to activate the weapon which can no longer be put in there.


What about the ADF vipers PAF has? They weren’t upgraded so can they deliver nukes?


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